From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Thu Jul 8 21:19:34 2004 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 16:19:34 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Do the Death Eaters know Snape is with the Order? References: Message-ID: <40EDBA66.1030804@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 68465 rubyxkelly wrote: > > Lord V. arrives at 2 empty spaces during that sene, and comments on one > being a coward and the other having left "forever" who "of course be > killed". > JKR in some interview (do't have it handy, sorry-maye someone else can > find a link) confirmed during a Q & A that V. was talking about Snape as > the one who left. Also, in yet another interview/Q & A when a child > asked if that meant Snape's death, she said "He's tough" and in fact has > pretty much said he's be around for book seven. > I think it safe to say that Snape was NOT at that meeting, even in > disguise, for he could have simply said so to Fudge without bothering > with or needing to show the DeathEatwer mark. > Do the DeathEaters know Snape is with the Order? Abetter question might > be "Do the DeathEaters KNOW about the Order?" It IS supposed to be > secret-look at the lenghts taken to conceal the meeting place! > Another question would be does Volde know Barty Crouch was kissed by Dememtors? Barty isn't death, just soulless in some ward in St Mungo's no doubt. Was his fate kept secret? Does Snape have a supply of Barty Crouch hairs for Polyjuice Potions to show up at Volde's meetings disguised as Barty perhaps? Or is he just tailing DEs in his spare time or friendly with the Malfoys and getting information through them? Or is he perhaps using an arsenal of magical items or potions to spy from a distance? Jazmyn From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Thu Jul 8 21:57:16 2004 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 16:57:16 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Detecting Unforgivable Curses References: <3F0B2B37.101@btopenworld.com> <003401c34595$f494c520$6d9bfea9@newpcp80hifojv> Message-ID: <40EDC33C.90007@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 68474 Monglane wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm from Paris, France. I've just joined this group and I'm already very > much enjoying a number of the subjects discussed here. > > The one I'd like to bring up today concerns the detection of > Unforgivable Curses. If a Patronus Charm (see OoTP), when cast by an > underage wizard, triggers an official and highly detailed warning letter > from the Ministry, it means that the Ministry is able to permanently > keep tabs on several thousand young witches and wizards... although, > admittedly, such tabs are not very accurate since Harry got such a > letter in PoA even though it was not him, but *Dobby*, who cast a Hover > Charm at the Dursleys' house. > > Such amazingly wide-ranging powers could/would surely be used to detect > the highly illegal Unforgivable Curses, when cast on a human being, > wouldn't they ? And if yes, then how could those Death Eaters cast the > Imperius curse on people without being immediately put under arrest and > sent off to you-know-where ? How could V. cast Avada Kedavra on Cedric > in GoF without the Ministry being alerted to his rebirth and precise > location ? And, while we're at it, how come Harry did not find himself > in the same predicament after he cast the Cruciatus Curse on Bellatrix > in OoTP ? > > What do you think ? > > Monglane > Its likely that only certain 'areas' are monitored. Such as anywhere around the home of a underaged muggleborn Witch or Wizard who might do magic where a Muggle would see it, but they would not bother monitoring highly magical areas because it would be a waste of time. If they can't tell Dobby's magic from Harry's, then all they can tell is that there were spells cast, not who did them. Harry didn't manage to do the Cruciatus Curse, lacking the ability to do it properly. Being as the MOM couldn't tell Dobby's magic from Harry's, even if they did detect the spell, they would assume Bellatrix cast it. The place Volde's rebirth was in may not have been monitored as it was thought there was noone there to monitor. Its not like there's any magical kids there for the MOM to watch.. Could also be that the MOM is just watching Harry closer then anyone else, either because Fudge WANTS to catch him at something he can lock him up for or because Harry seems to be a trouble magnet. I doubt that they would even notice kids at the Burrow doing magic, being as its a magical household with no muggles to witness the magic. Other magical places like the Forbidden Forest, the Ministry offices, Hoggsmeade, Diagon Alley, etc may be places where noone would ever notice a kid doing magic, due to the fact that so many people use it there, its not a problem. However, a spell in a place that's KNOWN to only have muggles, where noones supposed to be using magic, would certainly draw attention. Jazmyn From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Thu Jul 8 22:07:42 2004 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 17:07:42 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Magic In Privet Drive References: Message-ID: <40EDC5AE.7080103@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 68480 Kurt Douglass wrote: > > Doesn't it also seem strange that the Ministry of Magic never pegged Harry > when he unintentionally did magic the years Harry was growing up? And what > about the fact that other students do magic outside of school and never get > pegged for it (especially Hermione). I've already posted on my questions > about underage magic. I wish Rowling would explain this a little better. > > Michael Possibly, wizards who are fully trained and adults are 'registered' and not monitored? So only 'unregistered magic' might trigger alarms. Dobby isn't really supposed to do magic, being a non-human and Harry is under-aged. Fudge made some mention of Figg being/not being 'registered'. If squibs are 'registered', then wizards may be to?? Or.. there are spells or magical items that block the MOM from detecting magic from those who use them. Seems the Order might have ways to prevent the MOM from knowing what magic they are using. Or the Order got permission from the MOM to go get Harry and move him elsewhere for whatever reason? Jazmyn From kawfhw at earthlink.net Thu Jul 29 21:24:03 2004 From: kawfhw at earthlink.net (Ken and Faith Wallace) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 17:24:03 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Half Blood Hype In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103748 > From: "haraheart" > > So, JK has already told us that its not Harry or Voldemort. Could it > be somebody new? The Prisoner of Azkaban was Sirius, someone we had > barely heard of before (except for Hagrid borrowing his motorbike). > The philosopher (or sorcorer US version) was Flamel, who really > doesn't seem to be integral to the overall plot (although reading the > tit-bit found on JKR.com he could have been a bit more at some > point). The Chamber was sealed, the Goblet... (what DID happen to > the goblet?)What I'm trying to say is that the actual title may not > give away as much as we are speculating. You have a good point about the titles - who the prince is may not actually be important - what might be important is something the prince does or has - and that could mean that the prince could be dead - not like James dead, but long -dead - like GG or SS long dead. So maybe we should think about WHY a prince of half-blood's would be important to the overall story rather than who that prince is. Faith __________ CRICHTON: Nebari mental cleansing doesn't get the tough stains out Farscape, Durka Returns From navarro198 at hotmail.com Thu Jul 1 00:06:38 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 00:06:38 -0000 Subject: First US Edition of GoF (WAS: Scans of Relevant Pages) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103777 Many months, and thousands of messages ago, someone described what the little numbers on bottom of the copyright page mean. Is that member still active? If so, would you please describe it again so we can check our copies of GoF to find out who came first - James or Lily? I think mine was from the first printing, but I'm not sure if I'm reading the numbers correctly. Ravenclaw Bookworm From squeakinby at tds.net Thu Jul 1 00:10:07 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 20:10:07 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A brother? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40E3565F.3080104@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 103779 troublenbass wrote: >> JK reminds us that Harry has NO family other than the Dursleys, and thus far, > they have been insufferable. It seems that all of the surprises come from > James as well - MWP and P, being an animagus, and the invisibility cloak. > What if one last surprise would be grandparents, or some other family/sibling > outside of what has been mentioned. I believe JKR said that the grandparents were not an important element. Someone with a much better memory and file of citations will be able to tell us where this was. Jem From squeakinby at tds.net Thu Jul 1 00:20:12 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 20:20:12 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] First US Edition of GoF (WAS: Scans of Relevant Pages) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40E358BC.5040400@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 103784 scoutmom21113 wrote: > I think mine was from the first printing, but I'm not sure if I'm > reading the numbers correctly. The most valuable books are first edition first printing. If it's a first edition, it may be stated. If so, in the trade that's called a stated first. Years ago publishers assumed if they didn't say Second Edition, you knew it was a first, so many old first editions are not stated. You have to know. If it just says first edition and there are no other numbers, it is a first printing. Some publishers have their own designation for what the print number it was. Usually the last number in the long line is the number printing it was. If the last number is 1, it's a first printing. If it's 23, it's the 23rd printing. If there were changes to the text, in America that usually becomes a Second Edition. I don't know how it works in England. I don't know what the First Edition of the US GOF looks like, I have the UK First. So I can only share what I know having spent some years as a bookseller. Jem From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Thu Jul 1 00:28:43 2004 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 12:28:43 +1200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A brother? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040701122600.034554a0@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 103787 At 10:27 1/07/2004, you wrote: >"notyourpoet" wrote > >snip > >It wouldn't be out of nowhere, because JK hasn't told us ANYTHING about >James's life, which, as an English major, reads "trick up sleeve"...or has >she? >Can anyone cite anything? > >"notyourpoet" Tanya here. I can comment. When Sirius was telling Harry about running away to the Potters, he says that James' parents treated him like a 2nd son. Of course that doesn't allow for any hints if James had any sisters. Tanya [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From navarro198 at hotmail.com Thu Jul 1 00:44:59 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 00:44:59 -0000 Subject: Release date of book 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103791 Diana L. > Today, our local news (in Seattle, WA), ran a very brief bit on JK > Rowling's announcement of the 6th book's title appearing on her > website. They ran the story on the 5:00pm, 6:30pm and 11:00pm news > and each time the anchorwoman said at the end of the piece that the > 6th book *will* be coming out NEXT SUMMER. > So, is the sixth book really slated for publication next summer? Or > are our news anchors jumping the gun? Anyone else hear something > like this on their local news? At 8:40 pm EDT, the news feeds monitored by NewsNow shows a lot of links to stories about the name of book 6, but nothing on when it will be released. http://www.newsnow.co.uk/newsfeed/?name=Harry+Potter Many news feeds are taped and replayed, so the fact it was repeated might only mean they are repeating an error or speculation. IIRC, the names of the last 2 books were released about a year before the books themselves, so it is possible. When the story starts "JK Rowlings publisher has confirmed that book 6 will be published on (day/month)" *then* I will believe it. Ravenclaw Bookworm From ariana at astele.co.uk Thu Jul 1 00:11:19 2004 From: ariana at astele.co.uk (Ariana) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 01:11:19 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius revisited References: Message-ID: <04d501c45eff$f084c140$0300a8c0@astele> No: HPFGUIDX 103792 From: "kiricat2001" > Kneasy: > > It's to be expected many of the softer-hearted fans are suckers for the > > 'damaged hero' figure in fiction. Handsome, anguished, just a touch > > dangerous - oooh! Personal fantasies go into overdrive and denial sets > > in - "He can't be bad - I like him!" > > > > Oh yes he can. And he probably is. > > Marianne: > > Except for the "handsome" part, the above paragraph would cover a lot > of the Snape fans, too! He's dangerous, he's mysterious, he billows, > he's vampirish, he's damaged...Need I go on? Ariana: And let's not forget Draco Malfoy, who hasn't even had half the character development Black and Snape got. I've seen similar ravings about him in various places. :) At least the author herself likes Sirius Black (with the unfortunate consequence that Harry sometimes sounds a bit as if he fancies him too! :). Snape and Malfoy, on the other hand, are genuinely designed to be objects of repulsion, IMO. I guess there's just something about bad boys in fiction (and unfortunately, in real life) which seems to attract women! Ariana (Who only likes *fictional* bad boys and married a Ron Weasley minus the red hair :) From davyval at comcast.net Thu Jul 1 00:25:38 2004 From: davyval at comcast.net (dnp1234) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 00:25:38 -0000 Subject: Godric Gryffindor is the half blood prince Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103793 Reaons why G Gryffindor is the HB Prince. IN COS Dumbledore states that only a true Gryffindor could have pulled the sword from the sorting hat... Rowling could have changed the word to heir and added several more chapters but it would have detracted from the story... not mention the fact that we would have all went mad trying to figure out when she was going to tie it all back in. By making Gryffindor a half blood Rowling can explain some of Harry's powers. If Harry is the heir of Gryffindor through his father then his father would have had simmilar powers to Harry. If the muggle side of Gryffindor are ancestors of Lilly and she turns out to be a witch this would have to be very special. It would also tie back to the green eyes being important. Gryffindor could have green eyes Also, Rowling is not tricky with her names. All titles so far have been straight forward with the plot of the story. If Tom Riddle were the half blood prince it would be called Harry Potter and Tom Riddle or something of the sort. Thoughts? "davyval" From houseofbohacek at earthlink.net Thu Jul 1 00:51:26 2004 From: houseofbohacek at earthlink.net (klyanthea) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 00:51:26 -0000 Subject: (FILK) Half Blood Prince Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103794 Half Blood Prince A filk by Gail B. to the tune of _Two Princes_ by the Spin Doctors Midi is here (scroll down to "S"): http://members.tripod.com/~baritoneboy/midi.html "Half Blood Prince" will be the title Of the next book, now And since, since this clue is vital I'll take a look, now At the list of all the choices Of characters, now Listen to H.P. Fandom's voice as They weigh factors, now J.K. gave this information At her web site, now "Storge", it was a fabrication She didn't write, now And furthermore, she tells as compensation In her story, now Lord Voldemort's not Prince in the narration Nor is Harry, now Voldemort, Harry P. Neither of these two characters are he I ain't got no idea who it could be But everybody's got his own little theory Everybody's got his own little theory Say maybe the Prince is Colin Creevy It could be him, now Or perhaps it's Justin Finch-Fletchley It could be him, now Some say the Prince just might be Seamus It could be him, now And others like the thought of Remus They dig Lupin, now This Prince is a big mystery What if instead, now The Prince is ancient history? Someone who's dead now Or a figure of speech produced To cause some doubt, now? Or he's somebody not introduced To freak us out, now? Who is it? We can guess Rowling mentioned something about C.o.S. I ain't got no favorites, I must confess But you should listen to some other folks obsess You should listen to some other folks obsess I heard the Prince may be Lee Jordan It could be him, now And some say Mark Evans is our man It could be him, now Some think Kingsley will play the part Is his blood half now? Others say Gilderoy Lockhart Don't make me laugh, now Somewhere I read it's possible Hagrid's the one, now Can not forget Thomas Riddle The list's not done, now Roger Davies has been mentioned And Kirke, Andrew, now Neville has caught some attention Dean Thomas too, now Say maybe the Prince is Colin Creevy It could be him, now Or perhaps it's Justin Finch-Fletchley It could be him, now Some say the Prince just might be Seamus It could be him, now Others like the idea of Remus They dig Lupin, now Oh, Rowling! Who could it be, now? Oh! Who, who could it be, now? Oh, we're in a fix Who could it be, now? Come on, who is the Prince who's in Book Six? Who could it be, now? Come on, come on, come on Who could it be, now? Time will go slow, now I want to know now! -Gail B...who always imagined she'd turn this tune into a Ron/Hermione Ship filk...heh. From thrennish at gmail.com Thu Jul 1 00:55:10 2004 From: thrennish at gmail.com (Thren Summers) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 20:55:10 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Arthur is DEAD? + HP Fav Lines E-Mail to Brenda!! In-Reply-To: <20040630224542.76108.qmail@web21207.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040630224542.76108.qmail@web21207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1ee818a80406301755709f4b0c@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103795 Kneazelkid wrote: > Assuming that JKR's Web page is cannon (and I think it is), I believe Arthur > dies in the 6th book and that JKR has already written his death. If you look > under the information on the Weasley family (under the tea cup) it says Arthur > Weasley WAS one of three brothers" -- not "is," but "was." All other characters > on site are referred to in the present tense (with the exception of those we > know are dead). Thren: Or it could mean that he once had two siblings, but that one or both are now dead. *shrug* I'm not too worried. I highly doubt that she'd let something that huge slip like that. It's making too much of a little thing. -- "Whatever is done cannot be undone. But whatever is lost can, sometimes, be found." From aldhelm at earthlink.net Thu Jul 1 01:05:39 2004 From: aldhelm at earthlink.net (carin_in_oh) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 01:05:39 -0000 Subject: JKR's input on film scene at GH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103796 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros" wrote: > If you have that quote I'd LOVE to see it again. If only to reassure > myself that I did, indeed, read it. Mel, I distinctly remember reading this, too. In the Nov. 2001 messages on HPFGU- Movie, people talked as if they, too, had heard that JKR wrote or had significant input into that scene, including the non-appearance of James. In two places in the Lexicon, this is alluded to, but without a source footnoted: Lexicon article on Godric's Hollow: "According to published reports, Rowling had direct input into the scene in the first film." and on The Missing 24 Hours: "In the film, in a scene which JKR made clear that she personally added, we never see James, just Lily." But I cannot for the life of me find the original source. Can anyone help? (I'm keeping this here instead of on the movie list because it affects to what extent that scene is canon.) Carin From mrsbonsai at charter.net Thu Jul 1 01:06:30 2004 From: mrsbonsai at charter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 01:06:30 -0000 Subject: Wand Switching ~~~ Lily's wand used against Harry? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103797 Was: RE: Who Killed James & Lily I'm afraid with the current discussion of who came first, I think my post was overlooked :) So I'm renaming it and reposting it. Hope this is ok! ~~~~~~~~~~ Well I was looking but did not see this reply. Is it at all possible that Voldemort used Lily's "excellent for charm work" wand to try to kill Harry? And that's why the rebounded spell did not come out in GoF? I guess I should say I know that the reference of the charm wand was actually reference to Lily's first wand, however, it would seem to stand to reason that a subsequent wand would also be "charmed"? In this, could it also be that the wand belonging to Lily would indeed backfire as it would "know" her son? Perhaps there was a struggle of some kind and then Voldemort had to grab a nearby wand. It seems we've seen evidence of other struggles where wizards and witches use other's wands. And then there's the reference where another wizards wand can never be used as effectively as your own? Julie --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, shanerichmond at h... wrote: message #28581 From lmenard at shentel.net Thu Jul 1 00:26:19 2004 From: lmenard at shentel.net (Laura Menard) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 20:26:19 -0400 Subject: Snape as New DADA Professor References: Message-ID: <003701c45f02$09743300$0400a8c0@TheMaster> No: HPFGUIDX 103798 > Steve/asian_lovr2: > I think > the significants is that Snape finally gets it, and true to the curse > of the DADA teacher, that will be the book in which Snape dies a > heroic death, and full redeems himself in the eyes of Harry & friends. Laura here: I think that if there was ever a time to make Snape the DADA professor it would be now. Now that the secret of his return is out, LV will be back with a vengence. Who better to teach DADA than a reformed (at least as far as we know now) DE. I am betting that Snape will be the DADA professor that breaks the 'one a year' curse we have seen since year one. If he begins redeeming himself with H/R/H in HBP and then dies in book 7 he really will be the hero all the Snape fans want... It would also make it easier for him to redeem himself with H/R/H as DADA professor because that is the one area (besides flying) that HP is REALLY confident in his ability emlininating **some** of the animosity they have in potions (but leaving enough from the SS/JP issues to be interesting). However, being the true unbeliever that I am, I doubt that Snape has reformed from his DE ways and is playing everyone involved. From pandrea100 at hotmail.com Thu Jul 1 00:39:58 2004 From: pandrea100 at hotmail.com (pandrea100) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 00:39:58 -0000 Subject: Crazy, Crazy Theory About How Harry Will Vanquish Voldemort In-Reply-To: <20040630224306.36174.qmail@web21202.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103799 GBK wrote: Harry is not the type to want to kill anyone I disagree ... I think when he finally faces Voldemort, he WILL want to kill him, after all that has happened. But the big difference between them is that Harry will resist this impulse, as he did in the Shrieking Shack. It might sound like a small point, but I think it's important: two boys, both with difficult upbringings, but making different choices. Harry is the parallel to Voldemort, that is the reason he is the one to finally face him. In 'losing' (not killing, perhaps dropping his wand), he will win, just as in dying, Lily won. Pandrea From navarro198 at hotmail.com Thu Jul 1 01:13:33 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 01:13:33 -0000 Subject: The Weasleys and the HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103800 Del: I don't really like where I'm going with this post, but it's eating at me so here goes (I just hope nobody else posted the same exact theory before) 1. As was repeated throughout OoP, "Weasley is our king" 2. As many have commented on previously, many of the Weasley family members bear names relating directly to royalty, whether historical or fictional : Arthur, William, Charles, Ginevra, etc... 3. The Weasleys are famous for being a bunch of blood-traitors. But where did they get that reputation ? What did they do to make others believe that they don't care about blood purity ? Obviously, it's not a matter of Arthur or Molly or any of their ancestors marrying a non-pure-blood, so what can it be ? 4. We know that Arthur is fond of anything and everything muggle. Well, I hate to ask that, but how fond of Muggles is Arthur *exactly* ? I really don't like where that reasoning is taking me (I'm not tough like Kneasy or Pippin, I don't like making horrible assumptions about beloved characters ;-), but I can't help it. Here we have a pureblood family, about whom several allusions of royalty have been made, who are known for being blood-traitors, and whose father is inordinately fond of Muggles. So I have to ask : is there a dark secret hidden under the loving surface of Arthur and Molly Weasley's couple ? Or has someone been lying about their ancestry ( if one of the parents is not in fact pure-blood, then all the Weasley kids could be considered half-blood ), and if so, why ? Bookworm: I had a similar thought this afternoon, but hesitated to mention it, mostly because I don't believe it. There is been speculation that not all of the Weasleys are really Weasleys. What if one of them (whichever one is your favorite theory) really was adopted and is a half blood. I like your theory better, Del. Why does the secret have to be a *dark* secret? (Although, I would be upset if it turned out that either Molly or Arthur had cheated on the other.) Maybe Arthur's mother was muggle-born, or something like that. What if Molly is Arthur's second wife and Bill's mother (maybe Charlie's too) was either muggle or muggle-born. I know that would make Molly Bill's step-mother, but that doesn't mean he can't call her Mom. I don't really believe this, and was going to stay out of the debate, but couldn't resist your post. I had forgotten Draco's little ditty. Ravenclaw Bookworm From strawberry at jamm.com Thu Jul 1 01:11:52 2004 From: strawberry at jamm.com (Jenni A.M. Merrifield) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 01:11:52 -0000 Subject: FAQs: Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103801 Gorda wrote: > JKR updated the FAQ section of her official site and this was one of the updates: > > "At the end of 'Goblet of Fire', in which order should Harry's > parents have come out of the wand? > > > James first, then Lily. That's how it appears in my original > manuscript but we were under enormous pressure to edit it very > fast and my American editor thought that was the wrong way around, > and he is so good at catching small errors I changed it without > thinking, then realised it had been right in the first place. We > were all very sleep-deprived at the time." [...snip...] > Here's the test-only link: > > http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/faq_view.cfm?id=19 Jenni replies: Uhmmm... I just clicked on that link you gave and the text very definitely starts: "Lily first, then James. ..." I even checked the flash version and it says the same thing. Soooo... it looks like all the recent hypothesizing has been for naught. (But it was still fun, wasn't it? ;-) Jenni A. M. Merrifield -=> strawberryJAMM <=- From lavaluvn at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 00:52:50 2004 From: lavaluvn at yahoo.com (lavaluvn) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 00:52:50 -0000 Subject: Definitions of Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103802 Lauren: > There is a conspicuous lack of titles in the modern Wizarding World. > Even in the *Noble* (my emphasis) and Most Ancient House of Black, > Sirius' mother is refered to as Mrs Black (not Lady Black, or even > Madam Black - Madam being frequently used in the WW - Madam Bones, > Madam Rosmerta, etc.) and Harry addresses Lucius Malfoy as Mr Malfoy > when he returns the Diary in Chamber of Secrets. > > Up until now, the balance of power seems to lie with the Ministry of > Magic - not with any particular wizarding family (although Lucius > tries his hardest to influence it, through his considerable > donations ;-) ). With the exception of the majority of OOTP, Fudge > has always looked to Dumbledore for advice and leadship - which puts > DD in a King-like role, which now I come to think of it only > emphasises the fact that no such Wizarding King position exists. > > So I don't think there are any official royal or noble positions or > titles in the modern WW. And, so, theoretically anyone could call > themselves "Lord" or be termed a "Prince" - particularly if they have > *powerful* support. ;-) me (Andromeda): I was thinking along the same lines myself, except that I thought that supported the idea that the half-blood might refer to half- nonhuman blood. Easier to imagine a Prince of Giants or Prince of Goblins, than Seamus, Prince of Ireland????.. :) Cheers, Andromeda (my middle name, too many Cheryls around!) longtime lurker who can finally post again. From sonjaaiston at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 00:57:28 2004 From: sonjaaiston at yahoo.com (sonjaaiston) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 00:57:28 -0000 Subject: Why did Snape teach Occlumency? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103803 Alla wrote: > Hi, Sonja! That was indeed discussed here in great details rahter > recently. Check out ... let's say message 100606 and many many, many > messages that follow. :o) > > > Topics do get rehashed though all the time and this was not the first > and hopefully not the last time when we will be discussing that. :o) > > > I want to concentrate on the second part of your post though, since I > am still not in repeating mood for the blame game. :o) > Thanks for replying! I looked back and found lots of posts about whose fault it was that Harry went to the MoM. I wasn't really talking about that. I was talking about the possiblity of complications with the Snape/Voldemort relationship. I didn't see anything on that (then again, I never seem to be able to find posts that I know are there!) To me, it just seems that Snape was a bad choice for Occlumency teacher (and not because the tension b/wn Snape and Harry) b/c Voldemort could see: 1. Snape helping Harry 2. That Snape was excellent in Occlumency. I feared that this could effect several things. 1. LV might question Snapes loyalty to him (If indeed he thinks Snape is loyal to him.) 2. LV might suspect that Snape is using his excellent Occlumency skills (that he now realizes Snape has) when dealing with him. 3. LV might pressure Snape to interfere with Harry (in any number of ways) I will continue to look through past posts for messages on this topic. From sonjaaiston at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 01:16:48 2004 From: sonjaaiston at yahoo.com (sonjaaiston) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 01:16:48 -0000 Subject: Maybe we have never met the HBP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103804 Before Chamber of Secrets, we had never heard of the Chamber of Secrets. Before PoA, we had never heard of Sirius. Before GoF, we had never heard of the goblet or the Triwizard Tournement. Though we were able to assume what the Order of Phoenix might be, we had never heard of it before. Pattern??? Maybe it will be someone we have never heard of yet. Then again, that takes all of the fun away! I think I'll go back to enjoying the wild speculations! sonja From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 01:26:17 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 01:26:17 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: <9D35AF46-CABB-11D8-B3FD-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103805 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith wrote: snip. Alla: OK, here we go. Kneasy: snip. However much he tried to isolate himself from > them, early family influences still remain - the blustering, bullying > attitude, the self-justification that is almost stereotypical of those > from a privileged background. Nurture or nature? Do bloodlines define > the person in the Potterverse, or is it up-bringing? Or both? Alla: Of course, Sirius will have some family influenced qualities in himself. he lived there for sixteen years after all. But it speaks to the strength of his character that he managed to leave his "wonderful family" behind. At least he tried to get away from Dark Arts. (Note : For a long time I was not sure what JKR's atitude to Dark Magic is. It is possible that I was influenced by too many fanfic stories, which said that if Dark Arts are used with the noble intent, it does not make witch or wizard who uses them to be evil I don't think so anymore, although it is subject to correction, of course. For now I am convinced that whoever practices Dark Magic in "Potterverse" is evil, period) With that attitude in mind, I give Sirius major credit for breaking away from them. Kneasy: > Whatever, his personality is set. At Hogwarts he's known to indulge in > bullying and will without compunction put the lives of others at risk > out of spite - with little evidence of regret or remorse afterwards. Alla: Just a quick question. Who are those "others"? I am afraid I can remember only one name, whom Sirius bullied in Pensieve Scene. If you know any others, let me know, please. And about regret or remorse, I know we will never see eye to eye on this one :), but I firmly maintain that Sirius was never in the right state of mind or in the apporpriate situation to express his regret or remorse to the said person. Kneasy: > The fact that there was no punishment for his behaviour is unfortunate; > lack of sanctions would tend to bolster his self-esteem and his > conviction of being justified in his actions. Alla: We don't know whether Sirius was punished or not. We only know that he was not expelled. It is a pure speculation that he would definitely told Harry if he was punished. Maybe the punishment was so embarrasing for him that he did not want to mention it to Harry. I understand that for person, whose initials are SS any punishment of Sirius short by death would not have been enough, but who knows maybe Dumbledore saw some mitigating circumstances in the Prank. (Could it be? :)) Maybe dumbledore decided that... I don't know a year of detentions in Forbidden Forest with Mr. Filch will be enough for Sirius. Kneasy: > > The 'Secret Keeper' fiasco has been pored over often. It's difficult > to imagine what he thought he was up to. He is the SK; the Potters can > only be contacted through him. So he hands over the responsibility to > Peter, citing the reason that Voldy and his pals would chase him > (Sirius) as a known friend of the Potters, thus foiling their dastardly > plans. Tripe. Rubbish. What a load of old cobblers. Think about it. > Alla: This is the only moment, where I confess I am not quite clear about something. No, I am not questioning Sirius' motives. I suspect it has more to do with Rowling's not fully explaining the situation yet. Why, why why was he so sure that Voldemort will never come after peter? Did he consider Voldie to be stupid? Kneasy: snip Does he proclaim his innocence? No. snip. Why? There is *no* reason to. Shock? Unlikely. Alla. Two of your best friends were just killed. You learn that your other friend just betrayed them to Voldie. Yes, shock is the most realistic reaction I would think of. Kneasy: > > I've covered his 'escape' from Azkaban in some detail in post 79808, no > need to go through it all again - suffice it to say that his story is > full of holes and a good case can be made for his 'escape' being the > result of a deliberate conspiracy (probably by Fudge). Alla: Oh, could it be that Sirius as one of the brightest students in his class, who managed to become animagus at fifteen or sixteen , indeed escaped by himself. From j-lipton at northwestern.edu Thu Jul 1 01:50:54 2004 From: j-lipton at northwestern.edu (shsfriend) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 01:50:54 -0000 Subject: Definitions of Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103806 CMC wrote: > My feeling is that the Prince refers to a character from the distant > past - most likely Godric Gryffindor. I agree with this poster; in my opinion, the Prince will most likely be someone who lived long ago. The magical world (in Britain, at least) is governed by the Ministry for/of Magic, but maybe it wasn't always that way. It's possible that there was once a Witch queen or Wizard king before there were ministries. "Prince" could refer to actual royalty, if we're talking about someone who's long dead. Do we know Godric Gryffindor wasn't at least partly of royal blood? In any case, I do hope book 6 reveals something about wizarding history. - Jamie From rowena_grunnionffitch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 01:55:42 2004 From: rowena_grunnionffitch at yahoo.com (rowena_grunnionffitch) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 01:55:42 -0000 Subject: Maybe the Prince Is - In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103807 Merlin. He's been mentioned several times as a historical figure in the wizarding world and according to legend he was the son of a Welsh princess by an incubus, (for which read wizard) making him both a half-blood and a prince. Possibly in Book Six both the OOP and Voldy are after some heirloom or talisman left by Merlin? But my guess is the 'Half-Blood Prince' will be somebody entirely new - or somebody nobody's thought of. ;) From elseajay at earthlink.net Thu Jul 1 00:51:45 2004 From: elseajay at earthlink.net (Lois Jamieson) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 20:51:45 -0400 Subject: Favorite HP Lines References: <1088553413.14347.86123.m25@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002d01c45f05$98ea8cc0$99495643@g4j1d8> No: HPFGUIDX 103808 ----- Original Message ----- So what is/are your favorite lines from the HP series? I think it'll be fun to make a list of them. >From PoA, p. 301: "A number of small scuffles broke out in the corridors, culminating in a nasty incident in which a Gryffindor fourth year and a Slytherin sixth year ended up in the hospital wing with leeks sprouting out of their ears." Something about the combination of absurdity and British understatement in this line just slays me every time. Elseajay From cartoonista at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 00:59:10 2004 From: cartoonista at yahoo.com (cartoonista) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 00:59:10 -0000 Subject: Favorite HP lines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103809 My favorites have to be from F&G: "What are we? Next-door neighbors?" and, of course, "Shut up, Weatherby!" From davyval at comcast.net Thu Jul 1 01:35:31 2004 From: davyval at comcast.net (dnp1234) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 01:35:31 -0000 Subject: Why did Snape teach Occlumency? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103810 Voldemort must think that Snape has Dumbledore's confindence if he is a teacher. Snape could easily explain to Voldemort that he is purposely making Harry fail with his lessons. From pandrea100 at hotmail.com Thu Jul 1 02:22:11 2004 From: pandrea100 at hotmail.com (pandrea100) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 02:22:11 -0000 Subject: Maybe the Prince Is - In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103811 wrote: > Maybe the Prince is Merlin. Merlin tends to take the place of God in the wizarding world, I think, if you look at all the swearwords for instance. I have a feeling he's the closest they get to a religious figure (maybe someone like Buddha or Muhammad is a better example, a revered holy leader rather than actually a god). I suppose that could still mean him coming into it, but I don't have the feeling JK is very interested in exploring religion/faith in the books (unlike someone like Phillip Pullman, say). From garybec at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 02:48:51 2004 From: garybec at yahoo.com (garybec) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 02:48:51 -0000 Subject: Favorite Lines Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103812 Becki Says; My all time favorite line is when Arthur is in St. Mungos from the snake bite on Christmas day while everyone is visiting. Molly discovers that his bandages were changed and when Arthur trys to explain what "stiches" are, she says, "it sounds like your trying to sew your skin back together", said Mrs. Weasly with a snort of mirthless laughter, "but even you,Arthur, wouldn't be that stupid-". Once the kids escaped through the door, they heard her shriek, "WHAT DO YOU MEAN, THATS THE GENERAL IDEA!" That one makes me laugh every time. Becki From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Thu Jul 1 03:07:32 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 03:07:32 -0000 Subject: FAQs: Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103813 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jenni A.M. Merrifield" wrote: > Gorda wrote: > [...snip...] > > > Here's the test-only link: > > > > http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/faq_view.cfm?id=19 > > Jenni replies: > > Uhmmm... I just clicked on that link you gave and the text very > definitely starts: > > "Lily first, then James. ..." > > I even checked the flash version and it says the same thing. > > Soooo... it looks like all the recent hypothesizing has been for > naught. (But it was still fun, wasn't it? ;-) > > Jenni A. M. Merrifield > -=> strawberryJAMM <=- Believe it or not Jenni. Only two days ago the page most certainly said James first, then Lily......... It was read reread and cut and pasted by the shocked fandom that saw it. The very next day it changed to what you see now. I agree that what appears now (ie Lily then James) must be the correct and accurate version of events. Surely Jo must have been listening in when we all began hopping merrily along with our Lily died first theories, is all I can say, because she corrected us swiftly on that. Order seems to have some great deal of relevance to the book themes. JKR alludes often to things being in reverse order in the WW. I wonder if the "Order of the Phoenix" name has some relevance. We know a phoenix has a kind of reverse order in its life in that its end is its beginning. Valky From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 03:15:10 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 03:15:10 -0000 Subject: Favorite Lines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103814 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "garybec" wrote: > Becki Says; > > My all time favorite line is when Arthur is in St. Mungos from the > snake bite on Christmas day while everyone is visiting. Molly > discovers that his bandages were changed and when Arthur trys to > explain what "stiches" are, she says, > "it sounds like your trying to sew your skin back together", said > Mrs. Weasly with a snort of mirthless laughter, "but even > you,Arthur, wouldn't be that stupid-". > Once the kids escaped through the door, they heard her shriek, "WHAT > DO YOU MEAN, THATS THE GENERAL IDEA!" > > That one makes me laugh every time. > > Becki Two favorites (which I know is cheating, but...): OotP, Ch. 29, "Career Advice": 'And I must tell you that Professor Snape absolutely refuses to take students who get anything other than "Outstanding" in their OWLs, so -' Professor Umbridge gave her most pronounced cough yet. 'May I offer you a cough drop, Dolores?' Professor McGonagall asked curtly, without looking at Professor Umbridge. GoF, Ch. 20, "The First Test": Ron grinned nervously at him, and Harry grinned back Hermione burst into tears. 'There's nothing to cry about!' Harry told her, bewildered. 'You two are so stupid!' she shouted, stamping her foot on the ground, tears splashing down her front. Then, before either of them could stop her, she had given both of them a hug and dashed away, now positively howling. 'Barking mad,' said Ron, shaking his head. In each case, the punch line itself isn't particularly funny, but it pays off on pages and pages of character development and makes me howl.... Antosha, who looks forward to new favorites in the next XX months.... From klekatgirl at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 03:33:39 2004 From: klekatgirl at yahoo.com (Karen) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 03:33:39 -0000 Subject: Maybe we have never met the HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103815 Your point is interesting however there are some holes in it. You say that before PoA we never heard of Sirius. This is incorrect however because he is mentioned in the first book. It was his motorcycle that Hagrid rode to bring baby Harry to the Dursleys. It seems to me that JKR slips people in to the books before they have an important role to play. Therefore I think that this prince is someone we know. My prediction is that it may be Mark Evans. We know that Evans is Petunia and Lily's maiden name. It doesn't seem likly that a child could have that same name and not play an important role later on. Plus the way he's mentioned makes me suspicious. Does anyone else have any thoughts on this? Karen Evans --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sonjaaiston" wrote: > Before Chamber of Secrets, we had never heard of the Chamber of > Secrets. > > Before PoA, we had never heard of Sirius. > > Before GoF, we had never heard of the goblet or the Triwizard > Tournement. > > Though we were able to assume what the Order of Phoenix might be, we > had never heard of it before. > > Pattern??? > > Maybe it will be someone we have never heard of yet. Then again, > that takes all of the fun away! I think I'll go back to enjoying > the wild speculations! > > sonja From klekatgirl at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 03:40:05 2004 From: klekatgirl at yahoo.com (Karen) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 03:40:05 -0000 Subject: news in OoP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103816 The news in the first chapter of OoP seems to me like it's hidding a clue. The following were included in the news: "Record numbers of stranded holidaymakers fill airports as the Spanish baggage-handlers' strike reaches it's second week-" helicopter almost crashed in a field in Surrey famous actress'divorce from her famous husband "Bungy the budgie has found a novel way of keeping cool this summer. Bungy, who lives at the Five Feathers in Barnsley, has learned to water-ski! Mary Dorkins went to find out more..." The first one really strikes my interest, but I just don't see anything important in it though I have this weird feeling about it. What does everyone else think? K. Evans From klekatgirl at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 03:48:43 2004 From: klekatgirl at yahoo.com (Karen) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 03:48:43 -0000 Subject: random people Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103817 There seem to be a lot of people who are just mentioned casually throughout the books. For example both Mrs. Figg and Sirius are mentioned before they play important roles in the story. There are several people, and one cat, in the first few chapters of OoP and i was just wondering what anyone thinks about them. Mrs. Number Seven- ch1 Mark Evans- ch1 Mr. Tibbles- ch2 Mr. Prentice- ch2 Thanks in advance, K. Evans From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 04:09:24 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 04:09:24 -0000 Subject: Alice Longbottom In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103818 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > > Gina: > > I have GREAT hope for Neville's parents and I fully > believe > > something is going on here. Maybe there IS a message but Neville > cannot > > figure it out and is too embarrassed to ask anyone for help! > > > > > > > Potioncat: > Or perhaps he doesn't yet know there is a message. > > Potioncat (who thinks Gran is all right, even if she is old > fashioned.) Carol: Am I the only one who thinks that the gum wrappers are only a touching gesture, an indication that Alice feels some connection with Neville and is reaching out to him in the only way she can? Her impairment, it would seem, is slightly less severe than her husband's since he seems not to get out of bed or do anything at all. To me, it's a very poignant scene that reveals what Neville has been hiding, and I hope that he'll find a way to talk about it with Harry. But I don't see how the gum wrappers could mean anything other than the fact that they're all Alice has to give. It's the sort of gesture an eighteen-month-old baby might make. Carol, who wants to know more about Agnes, the dog-faced woman in the same scene From hphgrwlca at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 04:13:02 2004 From: hphgrwlca at yahoo.com (hphgrwlca) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 04:13:02 -0000 Subject: Half Blood WHAT?! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103819 Hi all, Delurking for a bit to add my two cents. I haven't seen this talked about yet, although I easily may have overlooked it, so forgive me if I'm repeating. My question is this: Everyone is talking about the Half Blood Prince as if the half blood part relates specifically to *magical* lineage. But what if it meant something else? What if "half blood" doesn't mean "half wizard", it means "half royal" or something along those lines? Or, "half-wolf"? *winks mischievously* That might change a few things, don't you think? Put a whole new spin on it? Best, Christine From pixieberry at harborside.com Thu Jul 1 04:29:49 2004 From: pixieberry at harborside.com (Krystol Berry) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:29:49 -0700 Subject: Hook Nosed, Slimy Greaseball (FILK) Message-ID: <03c001c45f24$0d138160$3a3a2d0c@D55NTV31> No: HPFGUIDX 103820 Hook Nosed, Slimy Greaseball To the tune of Pink Floyd's The Wall part II (lyrics at http://www.80smusiclyrics.com/artists/pinkfloyd.htm) Dedicated to Ginger, who has great taste in music! In the kitchen of 12 Grimmauld Place, Sirius and Snape confront each other while Harry looks on: SIRIUS: He don't need intimidation. Your job's to teach him mind control. This is my kitchen, not your classroom. Sniv'llus leave my boy alone! SNAPE: Hey, Sirius! Get down off your throne! SIRIUS: All in all you're just a hook nosed, slimy greaseball! HARRY (muttering): I don't like this situation. Because of dreams I'm on parole? Snape's horrid teaching in the classroom. Why can't he just leave me alone? SNAPE: Hey, Sirius! Get down off your throne! SIRIUS: All in all you're just a hook nosed, slimy greaseball! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From miss_dumblydore at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 04:36:29 2004 From: miss_dumblydore at yahoo.com (Heather Lynn) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 04:36:29 -0000 Subject: A different interpretation of the prophecy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103821 Man...take a few months off of HP for Grownups to adjust to college and you've got some *major* catching up to do! (::waves vaguely to see if anyone remembers me::) Unfortunately, since catching up would take all summer and then some, I'm just going to have to hope that this hasn't already been thought of and debated to death in my absence (in which case I'll beg someone to point me to the right thread). I've been doing a lot of thinking about that blasted prophecy, who it really refers to, and what it really means. It's so ambiguously worded, yet when asked in the FAQ section of her website if it means both Harry and Voldemort must die, JKR answers that it's worded "extremely carefully, and that is all [she has] to say on the subject!" Which usually means she's hiding something, doesn't it? So I read the prophecy over and over (and over) until I wanted to tear out page 841 in frustration...and the minute I gave up and slammed the book, the thought struck me: what if it refers to *both* Harry and Neville? My reasoning is the strange wording of the prophecy: "either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives..." If her meaning was that Harry must kill Voldemort or vice versa, wouldn't it have been better worded as "one must die at the hand of the other for one can not live if the other survives"? Sufficiently mysterious, but much clearer :) Yet her "extremely carefully" worded prophecy uses "either" and "neither." Could it then be read as "and EITHER (Harry or Neville) must die at the hand of the OTHER (Voldemort) for NEITHER (Harry nor Neville) can live while the OTHER (Voldemort) survives" ? And if either Harry or Neville *must* die, according to the prophecy, I can easily see a situation where one sacrifices himself to save the other, and in so doing destroys Voldemort. Self-sacrifice takes a lot of love, which we all know turns Voldie's stomach ;) The only thing drawing me up short at this point is "the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal" bit, but there's still the issue of timeframe. Obviously neither of them has killed the other one yet, so the prophecy isn't entirely fulfilled - it's still a work in progress, you could say. Could Neville still be in some way "marked"? Has he already been, and we just don't know it yet? I just never liked the automatic assumption that the prophecy refers to Harry. Introducing the frankly intriguing possibility that it might have been Neville, then immediately dismissing it out of hand just doesn't make sense. And that's not like our JKR at all :) -Roo, who is betting big money on a "Neville takes down Voldemort and himself in a blaze of glory, thus sparing Harry" climactic finish. From drednort at alphalink.com.au Thu Jul 1 04:37:27 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 14:37:27 +1000 Subject: The Anagram game was Re: Alice Longbottom In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40E421A7.24347.167E4B4@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 103822 On 1 Jul 2004 at 4:09, justcarol67 wrote: > Carol: > Am I the only one who thinks that the gum wrappers are only a touching > gesture, an indication that Alice feels some connection with Neville > and is reaching out to him in the only way she can? Her impairment, it > would seem, is slightly less severe than her husband's since he seems > not to get out of bed or do anything at all. To me, it's a very > poignant scene that reveals what Neville has been hiding, and I hope > that he'll find a way to talk about it with Harry. But I don't see how > the gum wrappers could mean anything other than the fact that they're > all Alice has to give. It's the sort of gesture an eighteen-month-old > baby might make. I've been playing the anagram game with the name... >From Droobles Blowing Gum (leaving out the best) I can get: BROWN IS MUGGLE BLOOD Black is Muggle Blood would have been more interesting (-8 (I doubt think I'm the first to get this). The fact that MUGGLE BLOOD can be made from the letters leaves me wondering if maybe there is something in the anagram idea. RON W SIB MUGGLE BLOOD? A sibling of Ron has muggle blood... (OK, that one is ridiculous... I'm just bored). Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 04:50:13 2004 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 04:50:13 -0000 Subject: HBP or Prince of the Half Bloods Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103823 What if the HBP is not someone who is a half blood wizard, just someone who champions the half bloods. Someone like DD.....My thnking is that Prince Charles is the Prince of Wales but he is not Welsh I do not believe.... Fran From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 04:53:07 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:53:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Class Reunion (just for fun) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040701045307.56120.qmail@web53505.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103824 Ken and Faith Wallace wrote: I've heard JKR say that seven books is all she will write. Seems like there will be so much more to tell. So many interesting things seem to happen in the wizarding world - things change, new baddies emerge. Just for fun - if Harry's class had a class reunion ten years after leaving Hogwarts - where do you think everyone will be/what will they be doing - students and teachers... Faith Assuming everyone lives: Harry - Seeker for professional team. Invents his own move (probably involving swallowing the snitch) Hermione - Attorney for Magical Creatures. Helps to create the first House Elf Labor Union (much to their disgust) Ron - Auror. Ginny - Minister of Magic Neville - head of magical plant experimentation Umbridge - horse breeder (clip clop) Lupin - designing a new line of tear away robes for warewolves Draco - Pansy's whipping boy moonmyyst sorry about any misspellings and grammar problems. I have been working for about 12 hours today and been awake for almost 24 hours. Rest... good... no... gotta do laundry, vaccume, dust, take out garbage, clean bathroom.... boy that bed looks good!!! --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From enigma_only at hotmail.com Thu Jul 1 05:44:07 2004 From: enigma_only at hotmail.com (fiondavhar) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 05:44:07 -0000 Subject: Dean Thomas, HBP...? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103825 Hello everyone, It's a while since I've posted, but I am going to keep this short despite. Has anyone put forward that Dean Thomas could be the half blood prince? We found out via JKR's web-page that his real father was a wizard who was killed by Voldemort, but that Dean himself was raised by his muggle mum and step-dad. We also know that Dean was originally going to be in on the adventure with fluffy in the first book. True, he was not, but still that indicates that he is probably a more important character than most people thought. That fact that it is widley believed that Dean is muggle-born would also make it more of a suprise. Anyway, this is a little late-night speculation, but I would like to know what other people think. Bonny From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 05:45:54 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 05:45:54 -0000 Subject: Mark Evans (Re: Privet Drive / Ethical Legilimency /) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103826 Christie wrote: Forgive me for butting in, but my mom has borrowed OoTP, so I can't look at it right now. I am trying to remember what the mention of Mark Evans is. I've read a lot of fan fiction lately and am getting some of it mixed up LOL Was it with the Sorting Hat or is he a neighbor on Privet Drive? Fan of Minerva explained: > He's a neighbor Dudley-dear beat up, but I don't have my book to > cite chapter. He is not at Hogwarts, but many people believe he may > end up there in the next book. Carol: It's in the "Dudley Demented" chapter of OoP. The significant points are Mark Evans' age (ten at that time; eleven at the beginning of the next book and therefore the right age for Hogwarts if the turns out to be a Muggleborn rather than a Muggle); the name Evans in the same book where we learn that Lily Potter's maiden name was Evans; and a general feistiness ("cheeking" Dudley) that reminds some of us of Harry. I for one expect to see little Mark in the Sorting Hat scene in Book 6 and believe him to be a distant relation of Harry's (whom Dumbledore doesn't know about about because his parents are Muggles). Carol From Meliss9900 at aol.com Thu Jul 1 06:08:08 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 02:08:08 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's potions O.W.L - Outstanding-NOT. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103827 In a message dated 06/29/2004 6:27:07 AM Central Daylight Time, willsonkmom at msn.com writes: > Potioncat: > Oh, I'm not sure about that. Unless the person doing the testing > was grading each stage of the potion making, you would either pass > or fail. One little error could cost you an OWL. And in that case, > the other classes would be easier to at least pass. > Its possible that the test administer is walking around grading every detail of the students technique. (like judges do at cooking or pastry contests) But its equally possible that they are only concerned with the end result: Does this potion produce the required result. If its the later then the student only has to be outstanding once. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lcolbert at netins.net Thu Jul 1 02:27:10 2004 From: lcolbert at netins.net (lene) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:27:10 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Weasleys and the HBP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200406302127.10177.lcolbert@netins.net> No: HPFGUIDX 103828 hmmm. "Weasely is our king..." names like "Arthur" and "Ginevra..." If we notice a big old sword sticking out of a rock in the Weasely's back yard on our next visit there, I'm gonna laugh my fanny off. Lene' (sorry, couldn't resist ) From inkling108 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 02:55:07 2004 From: inkling108 at yahoo.com (inkling108) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 02:55:07 -0000 Subject: What does a failed Death Curse look like? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103829 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > Jamie wrote: > > Maybe it works something like this: what shows up as an echo > > from the wand during Priori Incantatem is the shadow of the > > visible result of the spell in question: for example, Wormtail's > > silver hand, shades of the victims of the AK curse (represented > > in the physical world by their corpses), Crouch Jr's Dark Mark at > > the beginnning of GF. > > > > Logically, the visual result(s) of the curse that failed would be at > > least two -- Harry's lightening scar and what ever became of > > Voldy's body when he was ripped from it. However it is possible > > that these visible signs were not caused by the spell itself but by > > the initial encounter between Harry and Voldemort? > > Del replies : > Jamie, I completely agree with you, except for your conclusion. I > think the scar, the dead body and the destroyed house were simply the > results of what happens when someone mixes an inherently evil curse > like AK, with an infinitely good charm like the old magic Lily used. > Those two should not be mixed, under any circumstances ;-) Hi Del, Yes I suppose that is also possible. Also a possibility is that whatever caused the spell to fail had a blowback effect -- the spell was blown back to Voldemort, and in the process was erased from the wand. However I still think that it was more than just Lily's protection that caused the chain reaction in Godric's Hollow. After all JKR has said that if she were to reveal why both Harry and Voldemort survived, it would give away the great mystery of the series, so there must be something more than what has already been explained. My sense is that no-one completely understands what happened, and all the explanations we've seen so far come from characters whose understanding is only partial (DD, LV). Voldy especially seems clueless about it all, in fact his desperation to understand the truth about himself and Harry drives him to try to steal the prophecy. I still think it has something to do with a mirroring effect between Harry and Voldy. My current guess is that there was a inborn link (maybe not genetic but spiritual) between the two of them that that was activated when they met, and that this link was the primary cause of all that followed. Lily's protection was an important factor, yes. But I think it's only part of the puzzle. Jamie From ewdotson01 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 03:12:18 2004 From: ewdotson01 at yahoo.com (ewdotson01) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 03:12:18 -0000 Subject: Lily died before James? Scans of Relevant Pages. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103830 > > > Annemehr: > > > I'm holding my GoF hardcover in my hands also. I bought it the week > > > it was released, and it too says "Your mother's coming..." right on > > > p. 667. Also, on the title page, it says "First American Edition, > > > July 2000." > > > > > > Oh, well, at least it seems clear by now that the first copies in > > > both the US and UK had James emerging before Lily. > > > Steve/asian_lovr2: > > Thanks you so much for posting. Since I now have two separate > > unrelated people who are swearing they hold a 'American Edition' in > > their hand that says. '...your mother is coming...', I think we can > > now take it as an absolute fact. > > > > The earliest copies of the Scholastic -American Edition originally > > matched the first UK edition. James came out of the wand and said > > '...your mother's coming...' the Lily appeared; James before Lily. > > > Jen: This is so weird. I have a First American Edition, July 2000, > exactly like Annemehr's, with Lily coming out first and telling > Harry to hold on for James. > > Do you think different batches of the First Edition got shipped to > different parts of the US? I can't think of any reason why all the > First Editions wouldn't match. Unless some were shipped and the rest > pulled. > [snip] I did some research when I first saw the discrepancy, and I do believe that the difference is that we have a different (and later printing). As I understand it, the publishing houses will do a first printing of the first edition of XXXXX copies of the book. If there's still demand, they'll do another printing of however many copies of the book. Now, from what I can tell, they only do a new edition if major changes are made. It seems quite possible to me that they were able to slip this change into the later printings without feeling it justified a new edition. (And as I didn't buy my "First edition, July 2000" until sometime in 2001, I'm fairly sure it's a much later printing. I put off picking up Harry Potter longer than I normally would have as I was annoyed at the fact that I was always made fun of for reading light fantasy in grade school. It hardly seemed fair that it became the in thing to do after I graduated from college. ;) I am not, however, in the book publishing business, so I certainly wouldn't take my word as gospel though. :) Ernest From verysherryk at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 03:58:52 2004 From: verysherryk at yahoo.com (verysherryk) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 03:58:52 -0000 Subject: random people In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103831 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Karen" wrote: > There seem to be a lot of people who are just mentioned casually > throughout the books. For example both Mrs. Figg and Sirius are > mentioned before they play important roles in the story. There are > several people, and one cat, in the first few chapters of OoP and i > was just wondering what anyone thinks about them. > > Mrs. Number Seven- ch1 > Mark Evans- ch1 > Mr. Tibbles- ch2 > Mr. Prentice- ch2 > I agree. Bode, for example, is mentioned in GoF, then plays a larger part in Oop. It'll be interesting to see which one goes forward. verysherryk From enderbean01 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 04:36:47 2004 From: enderbean01 at yahoo.com (Miyuki Takagi) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:36:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Half Blood WHAT?! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040701043647.46576.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103832 Christine: Everyone is talking about the Half Blood Prince as if the half blood part relates specifically to *magical* lineage. But what if it meant something else? What if "half blood" doesn't mean "half wizard", it means "half royal" or something along those lines? Or, "half-wolf"? *winks mischievously* That might change a few things, don't you think? Put a whole new spin on it? Hey, it could be Remus. He's a half-blood wizard and he's a werewolf. And that applies to your half-wolf statement below. It could be he only looks shabby 'cause, ya know, he's a werewolf. I doubt those transformations are a walk in the park. Though, it doesn't seem very likely that he is. Of course, nobody that's been mentioned yet really seem like they could be the HBP on what we know. enderbean From RLD360 at aol.com Thu Jul 1 04:40:36 2004 From: RLD360 at aol.com (RLD360 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 00:40:36 EDT Subject: My take on the identity of the HBP... Message-ID: <1de.23cee889.2e14efc4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103833 Greetings all! :) I'm new to the list and loving it, just wanted to say HI! before I start to ramble. In a weird me-ish kinda way.... Harry or Voldemort....JKR already says no-way to this. And the idea that it could be TR, it would make the title lame when you substitute TMR for HBP. :P Neville as the HBP...while it would be cool, Neville is a pure blood. Ron says so in CoS when he's recovering from the slugs in Hagrid's hut. JKR has said that HBP was a working title for CoS and that the two books are closely related. So I think it stands to reason that the character in question was either introduced in the book or expanded upon. With that in mind, here're my best guesses in no particular order.... Hagrid...We know he's a half-blood, even if it's giant blood. The title doesn't specify wizard or not, so he's a possibility. I'd say a good one since there don't seem to be kings or princes in the human wizarding world, but perhaps there are for other cultures. Also, Hagrid's on a mission to bring his people into the fight, having a title among them might help to bring that about as he'd essentially be a bridge between both worlds. That'd tie in nicely to the idea that people should be united by purpose not prejudice that started in CoS and that Dumbledore makes reference to when he says that the wizards have long taken their fellows for granted and that it could be a fatal mistake in the coming war. Lockhart...I know this one's far-fetched, but what the heck! Lockhart could be a failed prince. One could speculate that he did what he did because he was a magical disappointment, ergo he had to find another way to make himself shine. The books certainly describe him as you might imagine a prince, looks wise anyway. :P And he does show up again in OotP, for what appears to be no particular reason. Now, how he would be important as an HBP, who knows? Colin Creevy...Another far-fetched in my mind, but still a possibility. In CoS it talks about his father but not his mother. I don't remember if she's mentioned in the following books, which would tell us if he's pure or half. He and his brother seem to be doing good in the DA, though not what I would call central characters. He was in CoS though, so that's why I threw him in. And last, but not least, Goddric Griffyndor...it could very well be that during GG's time, there were titles used and that was one of his. We know that he and SS differed on the matter of half-bloods, pure bloods. And one might speculate that it was because of their backgrounds. So the HBP could be GG though not necessarily referring to just him...could be his legacy of integration of the wizard world and perhaps an item he might've left behind to help, such as Fawkes (which I think belonged to him though it's not been stated) or his sword. Whew! All done! Lemme know what y'all think of my mad ramblings, and sorry if this has been repeated elsewhere. It's hard to play catch up on a list like this! :) Laters, PKO [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From enderbean01 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 04:56:55 2004 From: enderbean01 at yahoo.com (Miyuki Takagi) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:56:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Weasleys and the HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040701045655.73167.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103834 Del: Here we have a pureblood family, about whom several allusions of royalty have been made, who are known for being blood-traitors, and whose father is inordinately fond of Muggles. So I have to ask : is there a dark secret hidden under the loving surface of Arthur and Molly Weasley's couple? Bookworm: Why does the secret have to be a *dark* secret? Maybe Arthur's mother was muggle-born, or something like that. What if Molly is Arthur's second wife and Bill's mother (maybe Charlie's too) was either muggle or muggle-born. I know that would make Molly Bill's step-mother, but that doesn't mean he can't call her Mom. I don't know. I always thought that the whole king names and the "Weasley is our king" song were all allusions to Arthur Weasley becoming the Minister of Magic or something. I'm probably wrong though. enderbean From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 06:21:04 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 06:21:04 -0000 Subject: Prince of Walpurgis - Tales from the Dark Side. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103835 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pandrea100" > wrote: > > If it's the latter, then we have Tom being known first as a > > prince, then changing his name to Voldemort, ... That seems > > really unlikely. > greatelderone: > > How do you know that he bestowed it on himself. Perhaps it was a > nick name given to him by his fellow students at Hogwarts that he > later cast away after he rejected his heritage as a half-blood and > became obessessed with the whole pureblood supremacy thing? Asian_lovr2: Riddle me this: When is a Prince not a prince? Answer: When he's not a prince. Although I made the point somewhat humorously before, I think that the particular Half-Blood in question is not decended from Kings, at least not in the literal sense. I think we are dealing more with a conceptual or metaphorical prince as in 'The Fresh Prince of Bel Aire' (USA TV show). Tom Riddle, was a brilliant student, intelligent, skilled, knowledgable, and a powerful wizard, and was also a handsome charismatic leader. Add to that, the fact (assumed as fact) that he was descended from one of the greatest wizards of all time, Salizar Slytherin. I think, or suspect, that on the 'pyramid' of the most famous and important wizards who ever lived, the four founders of Hogwarts are on tier right below Merlin (who, by the way, is at the absolute top). The presence of these wizards, in my opinion, dominates the very essense of British wizarding society. I can't imagine two British wizards meeting and 'what house were you in?' not being the first question asked. My Point- Given his immense talent, charisma, and lineage, Tom Riddle truly could have been the darling Prince of the Wizard World. He had the personal resources to become anything he wanted to be, including ruler of, at least, the British wizard world. In addition, given his talent, power, and intelligents, he could have become the elected rule of the European wizard world (perhaps the entire world) in the form of the highest office in the International Confederation of Wizards. Of course, by now, you see the strange twisted irony. By choosing the Dark Side and becoming Voldemort, Tom Riddle has denied himself everything he ever hoped to achieve. Instead of becoming the greatest and most respected wizard of all time, Tom will become a footnote in history. Nothing more than the common villian when Harry Potter adventures are told again and again around campfires for centuries to come. Straying slightly, I have this theory that Dark Arts are 'dark' because they are inherently distructive. No matter how benevolent or benign the outcome of Dark Magic, something the casting wizard had no rights to is consumed or destroyed. Examples; Harry's blood, Riddle's bones, Peter's hand. Those are big examples related to a big spell, but even the most minor spell still destroys something. The essense of Dark Magic is that you must destroy in order to create. Tom Riddle is living proof of that, by chosing the Dark Side, he destroyed himself, he lost everything he ever wanted or valued, killed every chance at every dream he ever had, and thereby doomed himself to utter failure and hopeless villainy. Keep that in mind if you must ever choose between that is right and what is easy. Remember Tom Riddle, the boy who had it all, and threw it all away in a desperate /dark/ hope of having it all. Just a thought. Steve/asian_lovr2 From deyerlejm at aol.com Thu Jul 1 04:59:07 2004 From: deyerlejm at aol.com (smartone564) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 04:59:07 -0000 Subject: Snape as New DADA Professor In-Reply-To: <003701c45f02$09743300$0400a8c0@TheMaster> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103836 Laura: > However, being the true unbeliever that I am, I doubt that Snape has reformed from his DE ways and is playing everyone involved. You may be right about him being the DADA teacher, I have been thinking he would do SOMETHING with DA eventually, but about him not being reformed..... Isn't that what Ron always says? And isn't he also almost always wrong? "smartone" From deyerlejm at aol.com Thu Jul 1 05:21:23 2004 From: deyerlejm at aol.com (smartone564) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 05:21:23 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103837 > Alla: > > This is the only moment, where I confess I am not quite clear about > something. No, I am not questioning Sirius' motives. I suspect it has > more to do with Rowling's not fully explaining the situation yet. > > Why, why why was he so sure that Voldemort will never come after > peter? Did he consider Voldie to be stupid? Thats some really interesting stuff you guys bring up. However, most of it seems moot. Can Harry still talk to dead people through the veil? Lovegood seemed to say this, though I'm sure JKR did this just to annoy us, since Luna has a way to believe things with no proof. However, Sirius idea was that LV would never even look for Peter because he was so weak, and supposedly insignifigant. I mean, if you had some gigantic secret object you needed to protect, would you give it to Neville (who is remakably similar to Peter)? No, Sirius's idea was that LV would never suspect something like that, and the plan only got foiled because Peter was with LV. "smartone" From enderbean01 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 05:21:35 2004 From: enderbean01 at yahoo.com (Miyuki Takagi) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 22:21:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: There Was a King in CoS-HBP revealed! In-Reply-To: <20040630223546.34982.qmail@web21202.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040701052135.80083.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103838 Gena Babin wrote: > > > Ginger wrote: > > > The basilisk is the King of Serpents. We also know that > > > the basilisk is made by hatching a chicken's egg under a toad. > > > > > > A half-blood basilisk would be either a chicken (male-rooster) or a > > > toad. We know the roosters were all strangled, so that leaves.... > > > > > > Yes, Trevor is the HBP. Trevor the HBP. THAT'S an amusing thought. I actually laughed out loud at that one, but I suppose it makes since with all those fairy tales. What with if you kiss the toad it turns into a prince. Maybe Ginny will kiss Trevor and get the shock of her life. If Trevor actually is the HBP I think I might just keel over from laughing. I wish I would have thought this theory up. It would be great for a spoof fic. enderbean From pinkmoon3662 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 05:22:21 2004 From: pinkmoon3662 at yahoo.com (Gena Babin) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 22:22:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Crazy, Crazy Theory About How Harry Will Vanquish Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040701052221.7056.qmail@web21205.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103839 pandrea100 wrote: GBK wrote: Harry is not the type to want to kill anyone I disagree ... I think when he finally faces Voldemort, he WILL want to kill him, after all that has happened. But the big difference between them is that Harry will resist this impulse, as he did in the Shrieking Shack. It might sound like a small point, but I think it's important: two boys, both with difficult upbringings, but making different choices. Harry is the parallel to Voldemort, that is the reason he is the one to finally face him. In 'losing' (not killing, perhaps dropping his wand), he will win, just as in dying, Lily won. Pandrea -------- I agree with this too. He may think a lot on what he will have to do, but in the end he will have to kill Voldie. His hate for Voldie for taking the people he loves away will get very large I'm sure, and like in ootp he will snap. He will kill if it comes to it, unlike Voldie they both kill for different reasons, and somehow I think that that will also help him. Knowing that while he is killing, he is doing it for the greater good. GBK From kalmeeeh at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 05:26:03 2004 From: kalmeeeh at yahoo.com (kalmeeeh) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 05:26:03 -0000 Subject: The Anagram game was Re: Alice Longbottom In-Reply-To: <40E421A7.24347.167E4B4@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103840 > I've been playing the anagram game with the name... > > From Droobles Blowing Gum (leaving out the best) I can get: > > BROWN IS MUGGLE BLOOD > > Black is Muggle Blood would have been more interesting (-8 > > (I doubt think I'm the first to get this). > > The fact that MUGGLE BLOOD can be made from the letters leaves me > wondering if maybe there is something in the anagram idea. > > RON W SIB MUGGLE BLOOD? > > A sibling of Ron has muggle blood... > > (OK, that one is ridiculous... I'm just bored). I like your thinking Shaun. I played around with the letters as well, and I got "Ron B W is muggle Blood" Well, the W obviously stands for Weasley, and mabye the B is his middle name. ;) But I doubt this has any significance, because why would alice know Ron is a muggle blood, and why would she try to tell Neville when Ron was feet from here. I also got "I RSW born muggle blood" maybe RSW are Ron's initials. But I don't see how this can make any sense, most liekly a coincidence. - Luke From deyerlejm at aol.com Thu Jul 1 05:48:29 2004 From: deyerlejm at aol.com (smartone564) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 05:48:29 -0000 Subject: A different interpretation of the prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103841 Roo: > I've been doing a lot of thinking about that blasted prophecy, who it really > refers to, and what it really means. It's so ambiguously worded, yet when > asked in the FAQ section of her website if it means both Harry and Voldemort > must die, JKR answers that it's worded "extremely carefully, and that is all [she > has] to say on the subject!" Which usually means she's hiding something, > doesn't it? I have been wondering similar lines along what happened to Harry, in relation to the prophecy. For one thing (I have had a boring summer, and have just finished re-reading all five books), Harry was about one when he arrived at the Dursleys. AND Trewlaney (sp?) made her prediction just before their (Harry and Neville) births. Wouldn't it have made sense for Dumbledore to protect BOTH babies? He didn't know (well, for that matter, NO ONE knew) who the prophecy was supposed to relate to. Just a thought. Another idea that occured to me, we all know about how Lily's love protected Harry, and that Voldemort has some of this blood now. And I am sure someone has said it before (im new to the group), Dumbledore had a look of victory when Harry told him this at the end of GoF. Does Neville carry around some of his own protective blood. After all, we are still slightly unclear as to what happened to Neville's parents, except that they were both tortured into insanity. (I forget why exactly, but werent they looking for information?). Maybe they also wanted to hit the other baby, just out of spite or something. And, this isnt my idea though, is Neville the victim of a memory charm (i.e. Berta)? Which might mean he remembers what happened to his parents (Harry still remembers, occasionally, and Neville was just slightly older). "smartone" From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 06:29:39 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 06:29:39 -0000 Subject: Book titles - Thoughts and Ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103842 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" > wrote: > > Given the closeness of Royalty and wizards (Merlin & King Arthur), > > I don't think we can rule out the possibility of a real Crowned > > Prince entering the picture. Although, if it turns out to be Prince > > William, that will be, without a shadow of a doubt, another one of > > those 'OH CRAP!' moments. > Wanda: > > Well, in that case, calling him the "Half Blood Prince" might lead > to some unpleasant speculation on just what his mother was getting > up to, and I doubt JKR wants to introduce THAT particular twist into > her story. Not if she's hoping for a title some day, that is! > > Wanda Asian_lovr2: With acknowledgement to the List-Elves that we have strayed, and a promise not to persue it beyond this post without bringing it back on track. Note to Wanda, you are aware are you not, that Prince Charles in a skilled Magician? Could very easily be some wizarding blood in some branch of that family. And 'half blood' could refer to wizard blood, not royal blood. Adding full acknowledgement, that this is a crazy idea and will never happen, ...nuff said. Sorry for the diversion. Steve/asian_lovr2 From deyerlejm at aol.com Thu Jul 1 05:52:21 2004 From: deyerlejm at aol.com (smartone564) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 05:52:21 -0000 Subject: Mark Evans (Re: Privet Drive / Ethical Legilimency /) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103843 > Christie wrote: > Forgive me for butting in, but my mom has borrowed OoTP, so I can't look at > it right now. I am trying to remember what the mention of Mark Evans is. > Carol: > It's in the "Dudley Demented" chapter of OoP. > I for one expect to see little Mark in the Sorting Hat scene in Book 6 > and believe him to be a distant relation of Harry's (whom Dumbledore > doesn't know about about because his parents are Muggles). I would just like to ask, why wouldnt Dumbledore know? He seems to know pretty much everything else. However, I must admit, you might be on to something here. "smartone" From deyerlejm at aol.com Thu Jul 1 06:16:57 2004 From: deyerlejm at aol.com (smartone564) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 06:16:57 -0000 Subject: Half Bloods! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103844 I have seen some discussions about this prince, and something has caught my eye. If, in fact, it doesn't necessarily mean half muggle, half wizard, but instead creature, what half-bloods do we know? Well, I can't really remember any (unless you count the descriptions of some of the slyteriens) except for some wild speculation about Snape. How many times has he been accused the bad guy, or swooping around, or Harry joking about him turning into a bat? Could this half blood refer to vampires and humans? I realize that there has been little information on vampires in HP books, and that (from traditional mythology) they arent allowed outside, but maybe there is some potion like there is for controlling werewolves (Lupin/Snape PoA). "smartone" From deyerlejm at aol.com Thu Jul 1 06:19:36 2004 From: deyerlejm at aol.com (smartone564) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 06:19:36 -0000 Subject: Harry's potions O.W.L - Outstanding-NOT. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103845 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Meliss9900 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 06/29/2004 6:27:07 AM Central Daylight Time, > willsonkmom at m... writes: > > > Potioncat: > > Oh, I'm not sure about that. Unless the person doing the testing > > was grading each stage of the potion making, you would either pass > > or fail. One little error could cost you an OWL. And in that case, > > the other classes would be easier to at least pass. > > > > Its possible that the test administer is walking around grading every detail > of the students technique. (like judges do at cooking or pastry contests) But > its equally possible that they are only concerned with the end result: Does > this potion produce the required result. If its the later then the student only > has to be outstanding once. Well, from what I have read of potions, unless you follow the instuctions to the letter, your potions is off (even just a half turn too far clockwise). Therefore, wouldn't the scorers need only be concerned with the final work, because it magnifies every mistake? "smartone" From deyerlejm at aol.com Thu Jul 1 06:34:51 2004 From: deyerlejm at aol.com (smartone564) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 06:34:51 -0000 Subject: Prince of Walpurgis - Tales from the Dark Side. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103846 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > I think we are dealing more with a conceptual or metaphorical prince > as in 'The Fresh Prince of Bel Aire' (USA TV show). Tom Riddle, was a > brilliant student, intelligent, skilled, knowledgable, and a powerful > wizard, and was also a handsome charismatic leader. Add to that, the > fact (assumed as fact) that he was descended from one of the greatest > wizards of all time, Salizar Slytherin. After all that wonderful work (and moral lesson?) I must point out that JKR has specifically said that LV and Harry are not the HBP. Done, finished, stop, cease and desist. And, I must ask, with your opinion on dark arts, what do you think of Harry using one of the Unforgivable Curses (crucio)? If anyone knew about this, besides Bellatrix, wouldnt he be in jail? "smartone" From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 06:48:36 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 06:48:36 -0000 Subject: Snape as New DADA Professor + DA Club In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103847 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sbursztynski" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > > vHuge Snip > > > I think the significants is that Snape finally gets it, and true > > to the curse of the DADA teacher, that will be the book in which > > Snape dies a heroic death, and full redeems himself in the eyes of > > Harry & friends. > > > > > > Steve/asian_lovr2 > Sue: > > If that's the case, it's bound to be the last book. Can you imagine > the series ending without him? :-) I think, also, that the theme is > for there to be a new DADA teacher in each novel. If not, she's left > it a bit late to change! ;-) Asian_lovr2: There is a long list of favorite characters slated for death before the end of the series. I can't see them all dying in the last book. There is only a limited amount of room for a herioic death before the plot becomes to convoluted and muddled. Top of the list (at least my list) to die are Snape and Dumbledore. I figure one in each book. So either Dumbledore or Snape die in the next book. Making Snape the DADA teacher is the prefect setup for his later heroic death. Perhaps making Dumbledore DADA teacher in the last book will foreshadow his death. Also, keep in mind across the existing 5 books, the plots and subplots as well as the many many characters, have all gotten very complicated. JKR has now introduced several new students, and fleshed out several more. And invariably must introduce some more. In addition, there are only two books left and a lot, A WHOLE LOT, of story needs to be wrapped up. I just don't see room in only two books for JKR to waste the ink and pages on a completely new character who serves no long range purpose beyond cannon fodder. It's time to get down to business, and making Snape DADA teacher opens the possibility to expand him as a character, and resolve some of his back story. There really is no time to waste on pointless although perhaps interesting side adventures; she must stick to the point and begin to bring the series to a close. Once again, to add another Umbridge-like character to book Six would be a complete waste of extremely valuable story time. It's just a thought. Steve/asian_lovr2 From strawberry at jamm.com Thu Jul 1 00:55:42 2004 From: strawberry at jamm.com (Jenni A.M. Merrifield) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 00:55:42 -0000 Subject: GoF Reduction Discussion In-Reply-To: <008101c45d3f$f5dd4b60$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103848 Sherry says > > Yes, I agree about the world cup. We also meet Winky, Crouch and > Bagman there, but that could easily be incorporated in the events > surrounding the dark mark. > > As far as the second task is concerned, well, it is another way > that fake moody helped Harry unknown by the others. And more Rita > Sketer. Maybe, just for the sake of more action and adventure. Jenni replies: I have a friend who is convinced that the Rita Sketer subplot will be eliminated. He figures that there isn't anything that she publishes that is so important that it affects the main plot in a major way. I'm not sure I agree, but I thought I'd share. :-) Personally, I think the whole Winky sub-plot will be nixed (unless JKR has some significant reason behind Hermione's attempts to help the elves that needs Winky in book 6 or 7). Although she was responsible for caring for and keeping track of Barty Crouch Jr, her storyline is very tangential to the main plot, and I think it should be possible to get the key details shown without having her. I also agree that the world cup will be reduced to its barest bones: * Just enough of the game to introduce us to Krum and Ron's fanish adoration of him. * I doubt we'll see the Veelas marked out as such, since Fleur's connection to them could be left out without harm to the main story. * The muggle-baiting and the Dark Mark incident need to occur (You need the muggle baiting masked-Ex-DE's so they can be scattered by the Dark Mark) * Harry et al will meet Crouch Sr. who will be responsible for finding the wand and performing the "Priori Incantum" I also think that the Ludo Bagman/Goblins/F&G subplot will also vanish - but Harry will still giv his winnings to the twins because the "Joke Shop" subplot needs to exist due to the impact of some of their gags in OoP. Jenni A. M. Merrifield -=> strawberryJAMM <=- From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 07:10:44 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 07:10:44 -0000 Subject: Prince of Walpurgis - Tales from the Dark Side. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103849 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "smartone564" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" > wrote: > > > I think we are dealing more with a conceptual or metaphorical > > prince as in 'The Fresh Prince of Bel Aire' (USA TV show). Tom > > Riddle, was a brilliant student, intelligent, skilled, > > knowledgable, and a powerful wizard, and was also a handsome > > charismatic leader. Add to that, the fact (assumed as fact) that > > he was descended from one of the greatest wizards of all time, > > Salizar Slytherin. > Smartone: > > After all that wonderful work (and moral lesson?) I must point > out that JKR has specifically said that LV and Harry are not the > HBP. Done, finished, stop, cease and desist. > Asian_lovr2: A point you and others have made nicely. However, we others are making the point, relative to Tom Riddle and Voldemort, that a caterpillar is not a butterfly. Tom Riddle could have chosen to become the greatest caterpillar who ever lived, but instead he chose to become the darkest most evil butterfly. After his metamorphosis, Voldemort was not Tom Riddle. So, it is certainly fair to regard them as separate entities. It may not be correct in the end, but in terms of analysis and fair speculation it is a fair assesment. JKR said '...not Harry or Voldemort...', but in CoS, Dobby also said, (paraphrased) '...not Voldemort...' when he meant Tom Riddle. That sets a precedence in the book for regarding them as separate entities. That doesn't guarantee that 'separate entities' is correct, but it does set a precedent. JKR could be doing the same thing again. > Smartone continues: > > And, I must ask, with your opinion on dark arts, what do you > think of Harry using one of the Unforgivable Curses (crucio)? If > anyone knew about this, besides Bellatrix, wouldnt he be in jail? > > "smartone" Asian_lovr2: I have very strong but unresolved feelings about Harry using the Pain Curse on Bella. She certainly deserved it, but... well, it is unforgivable by definition. When this subject comes up, I can't help pointing out that Harry certainly has the ability to cast an effective Pain Curse, but he did it wrong. A Pain Curse is not a 'hit and run' curse like the Stunning Curse. The casting wizard my hold his intent, thereby holding his curse, for as long as he wants the pain to continue. See repeated examples in the book. A 'hit and run' or 'curse and duck' method will not work for this curse. That was Harry's only error in casting it. In a way, that makes it that much more scary. It is my hope that someone like Dumbledore or Remus will discover this, and talk to Harry and make sure he fully understands what a terrible thing he has done. Once he feels sufficiently guilty, I'm willing to let it go and move on. He is afteral a basically good kid. And I don't see it as foreshadowing of some dark turn for Harry. Just a thought. Steve/asian_lovr2 From claire_elise2003 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 06:43:30 2004 From: claire_elise2003 at yahoo.com (claire_elise2003) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 06:43:30 -0000 Subject: HBP or Prince of the Half Bloods In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103850 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "maneelyfh" wrote: > What if the HBP is not someone who is a half blood wizard, just > someone who champions the half bloods. Someone like DD.....My thinking > is that Prince Charles is the Prince of Wales but he is not Welsh I > do not believe.... I've been thinking along the same lines. But I am wondering if it refers to Godric Gryffindor. It was his and Salazar Slytherin's dispute about who should or should not be admitted to Hogwarts that started the Chamber of Secrets. Could it be that he was the Prince of the Half Bloods (and Muggle Borns, for that matter)? I would certaily like to hear more of the mysterious GG in the last two books. "claire elise" From bamf505 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 06:47:07 2004 From: bamf505 at yahoo.com (Metylda) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 23:47:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily died before James? Scans of Relevant Pages. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040701064707.99348.qmail@web12301.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103851 --- ewdotson01 wrote: > > > > Annemehr: > > > > I'm holding my GoF hardcover in my hands also. I bought it the week > > > > it was released, and it too says "Your mother's coming..." right on > > > > p. 667. Also, on the title page, it says "First American Edition, > > > > July 2000." > > > > > > > > Oh, well, at least it seems clear by now that the first copies in > > > > both the US and UK had James emerging before Lily. > > > > bamf here: please forgive the large snippage. I have two Hardcover Versions. Both are 'First American Edition, July 2000'. One was bought on-line and delivered the day it was released and that one has James coming out of the wand before Lily. The other one (still a 'First American Edition' mind you) was bought a few days later at a store and it has Lily coming out before James. It would seem that the mistake was corrected partway through the massive first printing they did. bamf ===== "Why, you speak treason!" -Maid Marian "Fluently!" -Robin Hood -The Adventures of Robin Hood (1938) Cub fans are not normal. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From marshbur at cs.unc.edu Thu Jul 1 06:49:49 2004 From: marshbur at cs.unc.edu (marshbur at cs.unc.edu) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 06:49:49 -0000 Subject: Mark Evans (Re: Privet Drive / Ethical Legilimency /) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103852 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > I for one expect to see little Mark in the Sorting Hat scene in Book 6 > and believe him to be a distant relation of Harry's (whom Dumbledore > doesn't know about about because his parents are Muggles). The only problem with this is that Hogwarts, the MoM or someone apparently knows about all wizarding-capable children when they are born, shortly thereafter, etc. I _think_ there's a reference to this in canon somewhere, possibly in connection to the letters that are sent to incoming students (the reference escapes me at the moment, however... i believe it's inference, however, and not an explicit statement). As such, it seems unlikely that DD would be in the dark about any familial relation between Mark Evans and HP. If nothing else, it seems a gross miscarriage of investigation on DD's part to remain, after 10-15 years, unaware of any relatives of HP's parents. OTOH, I do think the mention of Mark Evans is significant, and I do expect to see him sorted in Harry's year six (and sorted into Gryffindor, no doubt!). I also believe that the surname 'Evans' is significant (here's hoping that Rowling will answer the poll question about Mark Evans in her website's FAQ!). What I can't fathom, though, is why DD would withold this information from HP, unless it's in the same vein as all the withheld information in OotP (that is, to keep the info from VM). We could hypothesize that Mark Evans is hidden in a manner similar to Harry for many years... I'm convinced that Harry must be bereft of all family (or, all kind and caring family) throughout the books and very much so as we approach the end of the series. Something about the parallels between a young Tom Riddle and Harry are too suggestive to ignore -- I wager there's a fine hair Rowling wants to split related to the differences between the two. So, I don't believe Mark Evans will be a Harry's family member, but I'm at a loss to say why he's significant (and why such a surname is chosen for him). cheers, -David From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 07:34:47 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 07:34:47 -0000 Subject: names was Re: Droobles Best Blowing Gum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103853 Potioncat (with regard to Albus Percival Wolfric Brian Dumbledore): I just happened to wonder, is there a reason a person would have 4 given names? Carol: Maybe it suggests an aristocratic heritage--Charles Philip Arthur George (Prince Charles), anybody? Maybe Dumbledore is the half blood prince? At any rate, having a Muggle or Muggleborn parent would help to explain his interest in Muggles (and fondness for Muggle sweets). Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 07:42:44 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 07:42:44 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore as half blood prince? (Was names ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103854 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Potioncat (with regard to Albus Percival Wolfric Brian Dumbledore): > I just happened to wonder, is there a reason a person would have 4 > given names? > > Carol: > Maybe it suggests an aristocratic heritage--Charles Philip Arthur > George (Prince Charles), anybody? Maybe Dumbledore is the half blood > prince? At any rate, having a Muggle or Muggleborn parent would help > to explain his interest in Muggles (and fondness for Muggle sweets). > > Carol I realized after I posted this that it doesn't make much sense. What I meant was that some of DD's given names as well as the large number of names sounds aristocratic (ergo "prince") and the interest in Muggles ties in with "half blood." Also Dumbledore is an important character in CoS, the book for which JKR originally considered this title, and I can't think of any other character the title might apply to. Carol, who is going to bed before she says anything else incoherent or unintelligible From laurens at leroc.net Thu Jul 1 08:04:52 2004 From: laurens at leroc.net (lauren_silverwolf) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 08:04:52 -0000 Subject: Arthur is dead on JKR's page In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103855 "kneazelkid" wrote: > Assuming that JKR's Web page is cannon (and I think it is), I > believe Arthur dies in the 6th book and that JKR has already written > his death. If you look under the information on the Weasley family > (under the tea cup) it says "Arthur Weasley WAS one of three > brothers" Then Antosha: > Molly is referred to in the web site in the past tense: "Molly *was* > Molly Prewett." Then Kneazelkid again: > But it says Molly "was" Prewett, because she WAS Prewett. She is no > longer a Prewett, so that example doesn't stand up. Now Me (Lauren): JKR's written the whole page in the past tense. It even begins with the words, "Ron was the only one of three major characters whose surname never changed.....". She's talking about the history of the evolution of the characters. I don't think that this is enough evidence to indicate the demise of the entire Weasley family, sorry! love, Lauren. From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 08:07:26 2004 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 01:07:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Mark Evans the half blood prince? In-Reply-To: <40E0EBE2.000046.03540@NHCD> Message-ID: <20040701080726.4818.qmail@web53402.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103856 Sinful Snape wrote: How could Mark Evans be Harry's half-brother? Mark is only 10 in OOtP and Harry is 15. Harry's parents both were killed when he was 1 which would have been about 4 years before Mark was born, so Harry could not share a parent with Mark. SinfulSnape My reply: I didn't say that. I'm not sure who did, I think I read it but I can't remember who wrote it. They can't really be Harry's half brother because like you said Lily was dead long before Mark Evans was born. How common is the name Evans in Britian anyway? ~Melanie --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From paul_terzis at yahoo.gr Thu Jul 1 08:18:54 2004 From: paul_terzis at yahoo.gr (paul_terzis) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 08:18:54 -0000 Subject: Who gets the Imperius curse? And when? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103857 I feel that indeed there is something significant in the scene where fake Moody put under the Imperius curse the whole class in GOF. We all are considering the future events. But why not someone is still under the imperius curse the whole time of GOF and OOTP? And to make it even more striking, why not be more than one under the imperius curse all this time? Just imagine the possibilities. Fake Moody under the cover that he shows them the curses, he could enlist to his master's bidding any student of Hogwarts!!! What a predicament! Paul From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 08:27:55 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 08:27:55 -0000 Subject: Hermione's parents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103858 Jujube wrote : > What I find interesting about this discussion is the assumption that > Hermione's parents find a huge disconnect between the wizarding > world and their own world. JKR doesn't give us any evidence of > this, and so it's entirely possible that Hermione's parents find her > experience at Hogwart's to be as exciting as she does, and that they > simply accept that this is how things are. Del replies : Hermione's parents can find her experience at Hogwarts exciting, they can accept it's how things are, and *at the same time* they can feel cut off from their daughter's world, and be hurt by that. When Hermione says that she wants to tell her parents about the Prefect badge because they can relate to that, it sure makes me wonder how much of the WW they know and understand. It reminds me very much of the time when I went to Canada for a year as an exchange student, more than 10 years ago. The only mail at the time was the post mail, and I wasn't much of a writer, so my mom didn't get much info on my life there. And when I came back, I was simply amazed at how little my mom could relate to my life there, how much I had changed and how "estranged" to her I had become. It took us several weeks to become re-accustomed to each other. Also, even though she never mentioned it, because she has always supported me completely, I know that this whole year with me far away was very hard on my mother. And I was 17 when I left, not 11 ! And even now that I am 30 and I just moved to my husband's country, it still hurts her to "lose" a daughter. We have Internet and the phone, but still she hurts and she keeps bugging me for more info on my life here, so she can *relate*. Jujube wrote : > As for Hermione's choices, I can totally understand choosing between > time with my family (as much as I love my own family) and hanging > out with the most powerful people in the WW who are at the heart of > the most important thing to have happened in it many years. It's a > no-brainer. ;-) Del replies : Even when you haven't seen your family for a year and a half, or barely ? Hermione left her parents 2 weeks before starting school in GoF, didn't go home at all until the next summer holidays, when she *maybe* spent a few days with her family before going to GP but we're not even sure. Then comes Christmas, and she can't even spend a miserable week with her parents ?? And worst of all, she says that they are "a bit disappointed"... I'd be crying my heart out if my 15-year-old daughter made it so obvious that she doesn't want to spend time with me anymore. Jujube wrote : > I don't think JKR is implying in any way that there is a problem > between Hermione and her parents and between their Muggle lives and > her wizarding life. I also think JKR is glossing over, or > shorthanding, descriptions of Hermione's life outside of Hogwarts > purely because the books are already quite long and the stories > quite complex. Hermione is bright, mature, and well-adjusted; I > don't think there is any hint of a problem in her relationship with > her parents, nor, I am emboldened to say, do I think JKR means for > us to fine one. Del replies : As you said four times in this paragraph, that's what YOU *think*. Other people think otherwise. And nobody can speak for JKR. Jujube wrote : > I find this discussion similar to the one about Harry's mental > health and my personal reaction is the same--the world JKR creates > is not meant to correspond one-to-one to the world we live in; quite > the opposite instead. She's created a fantasy world where the usual > rules pretty much do not apply, and that's why I think it's perhaps > not very productive to try to investigate things that really aren't > there. Del replies : Once again, that's what *you* think. Other people can choose to think differently. As for me, I sometimes read the books as a fantasy world, and sometimes as the real world, depending on my mood. Your last line doesn't make sense to me. When a writer creates a world, they can never hope to describe it completely. On the other hand, they usually DO hope that their readers will use their imagination to fill in the holes and expand this imaginary world, according to their own sensibilities and experiences. So saying that some things aren't really there is saying that we shouldn't apply our imagination and emotions to the Potterverse. What's the point of reading the books then ? Shaun wrote : > > If I was Mr and Mrs Granger, the more I loved my daughter, the > > more hurt I would be by all of this. From their perspective, their > > daughter wants to spend more time with the Weasleys than she does > > them. Jujube answered : > Except we don't know this for a fact. I think if JKR meant for us > to think there were problems between Hermione and her parents then > it would be pretty clear in the text. Del replies : Nope she wouldn't necessarily, because the story is told from Harry's point of view. So for JKR to be able to tell us anything, Harry must first come to realize it. And Harry is almost the last person on Earth who could notice a problem in a *family* relationship. Hermione would pretty much have to tell him flat out, and that's just not her type. Shaun wrote : > > But honestly... I'd be hard pressed to see how they can still be > > having a healthy real relationship with their daughter. > > > > One weeks contact in 20 months? And a a daughter, who it seems > > likely is concealing large aspects of her life from them? > > > > If they love each other, it may be that they'll be able to rebuild > > a new relationship, but I really doubt that what they have at the > > moment is particularly healthy. Jujube answered : > Except 1. we don't have all of the facts to do a case study Del replies : We do have quite a few facts to start with : Hermione *lies* to her parents to get away from them, she doesn't tell them much about her life at school, she doesn't mind being away from them for 20 months. In RL, that would be enough to ring an alarm bell. Jujube wrote : > and 2. this is not, at least not at the moment, an important plot > point--the book is not a psychological study of various families and > the effects of this strange boarding school on them. It's a fantasy > about a young boy who becomes a hero. Del replies : Said who ?? As far as I know, JKR never wrote a preface to her books saying that they were *only* about Harry Potter. That's their *title*, yes, but a title isn't restrictive, it's descriptive : the title here says that we are seeing the events through Harry's eyes. If people want to dwell on other aspects of the book, it's their *right*. A book is an object like any other : people can use it as they want. Objects usually have one or two specific uses, but if anyone wants to use them for anything else, that's their problem. You might not agree, you might choose to keep away from them when they do that, you might warn them, but you can't forbid them (unless you're their mom :-) Jujube wrote : > So think it's OK to assume that all is well within the Granger > family. Del replies : OF COURSE it's okay to assume all is well ! This is your basic right as long as JKR doesn't tell us clearly otherwise. But it's *just as OK* to assume that all is not well since JKR has not come out and shown Hermione and her parents having a warm, understanding and fulfilling relationship. > jujube, who is still s l o w l y getting caught up on digests Del, who wishes you good luck, because things are getting crazy around here. At least, by going on the website, I can choose which threads I'm not interested in and skip them :-) From alina at distantplace.net Thu Jul 1 08:42:23 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 04:42:23 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Anagram game was Re: Alice Longbottom References: Message-ID: <008501c45f47$5508e6e0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 103859 > I like your thinking Shaun. > > I played around with the letters as well, and I got > > "Ron B W is muggle Blood" > > Well, the W obviously stands for Weasley, and mabye the B is his > middle name. ;) But I doubt this has any significance, because why > would alice know Ron is a muggle blood, and why would she try to tell > Neville when Ron was feet from here. > - Luke If I remember correctly Ron's middle name is Bilius, as stated by JKR in an interview, so it all fits. Alina. From val_gal_05 at yahoo.ca Thu Jul 1 08:11:21 2004 From: val_gal_05 at yahoo.ca (val_gal_05) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 08:11:21 -0000 Subject: Marauder's Map: Selective Against Marauders? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103860 Hey, I just joined and spent all my night looking through some stuff on here... Well, I had an idea before, considering no one's really sure why we don't see Wormtail and Sirius on the map... Maybe, since it was made by them and just in case it got into the wrong hands and WAS activated, they made it so that none of the MWPP would be visible unless it's viewed by one of them. Does that make sense? Is there any evidence to prove otherwise? It might've shown Remus at some point around, I guess and that would screw my theory to hell but if not then why not? It explains the why-Harry-didn't-see-Peter- or-Sirius mystery and it would be something they'd think of, theoretically, it'd be pretty convinient if they had dropped it while it was activated or something. Val From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 09:05:48 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 09:05:48 -0000 Subject: Flitwick as HBP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103861 OK, this one is for fun :-) Bases for my reasoning : 1. Many people seem to think that half-blood could also mean half-breed. 2. Flitwick is too small to be a normal human, but too big to be a normal goblin. So many posters here have wondered if maybe he was half-goblin. 3. We have a werewolf, a half-giant, an elf, a centaur. We're missing a vampire and a goblin. Bill is in talks with the goblins but it doesn't seem to work too well. SO ! Maybe Flitwick is the half-human son of the king of the goblins ? OK, OK, I know :-) But it's no worse than many other ideas posted on this site, is it ? Del From alina at distantplace.net Thu Jul 1 09:11:24 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 05:11:24 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Marauder's Map: Selective Against Marauders? References: Message-ID: <00a201c45f4b$6297fbd0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 103862 > Hey, I just joined and spent all my night looking through some stuff > on here... Well, I had an idea before, considering no one's really > sure why we don't see Wormtail and Sirius on the map... Maybe, since > it was made by them and just in case it got into the wrong hands and > WAS activated, they made it so that none of the MWPP would be > visible unless it's viewed by one of them. Does that make sense? Is > there any evidence to prove otherwise? It might've shown Remus at > some point around, I guess and that would screw my theory to hell > but if not then why not? It explains the why-Harry-didn't-see-Peter- > or-Sirius mystery and it would be something they'd think of, > theoretically, it'd be pretty convinient if they had dropped it > while it was activated or something. > > Val The map can't be selective against Marauders because Lupin saw Pettigrew on it, it's the reason he realized Sirius wasn't the killer. The reason Harry never saw Sirius on it was that he never looked at the map while Sirius was inside Hogwarts grounds. Sirius only snuck in once, the night he tried to attack Pettigrew the rat and Ron woke up screaming, right? Harry wasn't looking at the map, he was asleep. As for Pettigrew, well, Harry didn't use the map all that often and when he did, he wasn't looking at the areas where Ron happened to be nor the Gryffindor tower where Pettigrew probably stayed most of the time. I think we can probably count on one hand the amount of times Harry used the map, it's not that improbable that he didn't see Pettigrew on it. Alina. From alina at distantplace.net Thu Jul 1 10:16:21 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 06:16:21 -0400 Subject: a point for Dean Thomas = HBP Message-ID: <00b201c45f54$75761120$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 103863 I'm on Rowling's site right now and I noticed that she classifies the extra background info on Dean Thomas as a Chamber Of Secrets bit. To me that's an extra point in favour of Dean being the HPB in question, since the title was once a book 2 one. On the other hand, she does say that the Dean Thomas story will probably never make its way into the books... hmmmmm Alina. From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 10:26:47 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 10:26:47 -0000 Subject: The Anagram game was Re: Alice Longbottom In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103864 Luke wrote: "Ron B W is muggle Blood" Well, the W obviously stands for Weasley, and mabye the B is his middle name. ;) But I doubt this has any significance, because why would alice know Ron is a muggle blood, and why would she try to tell Neville when Ron was feet from here. I also got "I RSW born muggle blood" maybe RSW are Ron's initials. But I don't see how this can make any sense, most liekly a coincidence. vmonte responds: Bilius is Ron's middle name. vivian From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 1 10:28:55 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 10:28:55 -0000 Subject: The Anagram game - was Re: Alice Longbottom Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103865 I do like the Anagram Game and am particularly charmed by "Ron B W is muggle blood". However, I can't help wondering how (or indeed why) poor Alice, whose brain has been pretty well mashed by her terrible experience, has the capacity to form complicated anagrams. If she is capable of that kind of clarity ofthought, why is she still in St. Mungo's? Is she perhaps recovering, but is still pretending to be a zombie to protect her family? The books are full of people pretending to be something they aren't. Perhaps Alice is yet another one. Sylvia (who doesn't really believe this but feels like trailing her coat) From J.Z.Dench at uel.ac.uk Thu Jul 1 10:09:24 2004 From: J.Z.Dench at uel.ac.uk (Jospehine) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 10:09:24 -0000 Subject: news in OoP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103866 "Karen" wrote: The news in the first chapter of OoP seems to me like it's hidding a clue. The following were included in the news: "Record numbers of stranded holidaymakers fill airports as the Spanish baggage-handlers' strike reaches it's second week-" helicopter almost crashed in a field in Surrey famous actress'divorce from her famous husband "Bungy the budgie has found a novel way of keeping cool this summer. Bungy, who lives at the Five Feathers in Barnsley, has learned to water-ski! Mary Dorkins went to find out more..." The first one really strikes my interest, but I just don't see anything important in it though I have this weird feeling about it. What does everyone else think? Josephine now: I think these are actually quite reminiscent of real news stories that appeared on the news during the summer JKR would have been writing OOP. I don't think they hold anything cryptic. Baggage handlers strikes are common during the summer in England and Spain, so it may be JKR just establishing the time of year and what was going on in the 'real world'. As for Bungy... well the summer is usually slow for hard hitting news stories! So something like that could well be needed to fill the last news spot. But it would be interesting if they did mean something else. But I'm not won over yet. Jo From J.Z.Dench at uel.ac.uk Thu Jul 1 10:15:16 2004 From: J.Z.Dench at uel.ac.uk (Jospehine) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 10:15:16 -0000 Subject: HBP or Prince of the Half Bloods In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103867 "maneelyfh" wrote: What if the HBP is not someone who is a half blood wizard, just someone who champions the half bloods. Someone like DD.....My thnking is that Prince Charles is the Prince of Wales but he is not Welsh I do not believe.... Josephine now: Ah... so you mean it might be more 'Prince *of the* Half-bloods'? OK. I like it. But I'm not sure it is really the right title to bestow on someone who is championing a cause. You would be more likely to say leader, or something less regal. But it could become someones title by the *end* of the book, once that person has done something for the half-bloods and gains the title from admiration. Nice thought though! I will go and ponder it now... Jo From Amber_Falls at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 10:16:23 2004 From: Amber_Falls at yahoo.com (Amber_ Falls) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 03:16:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Knights of Walpurgis Re: Why Tom Riddle isn't the "Prince" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040701101623.45404.qmail@web90008.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103868 --- pandrea100 wrote: > > > I forgot all about that and now I'm wondering - who > on earth did > everyone else think Voldemort WAS then? Where did > they imagine he'd > come from? And did no one who was at school with > Tom Riddle ever > wonder what happened to him? The wizarding world is > smaller than > ours, you'd think someone would have put two and two > > together ... "hmm, remember that guy we were at > school with? He > disappeared around about the time Voldemort started > trying to rule > the world, could there be a connection?" In fact, > wouldn't it be > interesting if most people thought Tom Riddle was > KILLED by > Voldemort, perhaps he's even thought of as a hero? Amber: This is just speculation on my part, but I think TR disappeared after he finished school. Perhaps cut off all his connection with WW and after many years he came back as Lord Voldemort.Changed his looks drastically so it's not surprising that just a few could put that link between LV and TR.Perhaps many many people think he was killed by LV and in a sense he was. Well at Hogwarts TR was a hero by exposing the one who opened the Chamber of Secrets. Amber __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From marnyhelfrich at comcast.net Thu Jul 1 10:35:02 2004 From: marnyhelfrich at comcast.net (Marny Helfrich) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 06:35:02 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Half Bloods! References: Message-ID: <0b7201c45f57$11821df0$8e2f8c45@mynewputer> No: HPFGUIDX 103869 smartone wrote: > If, in fact, it doesn't necessarily >mean half muggle, half wizard, but instead creature, what >half-bloods do we know? Hagrid (giant) Fleur dela Coeur (Veela) Crookshanks (Kneazle) Marny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Amber_Falls at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 11:04:18 2004 From: Amber_Falls at yahoo.com (Amber_ Falls) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 04:04:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lily died before James? Scans of Relevant Pages. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040701110418.69084.qmail@web90008.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103870 > > Amber: > > At the bottom of the page is there a series of > > numbers from one to twenty. Maybe I have the > > 20th edition?? whizbang wrote: > The series of numbers from one to twenty are > significant. The lowest number on the right > indicates the which printing you have. To the > best of my knowledge they are all still in the > first edition. If your copy has a string of > numbers starting with 1, then you have a first > run printing, and in good condition, it's probably > already worth more than you paid for it. ;) Amber: I've bought all four books UK version(paperbacks) in 2002.You got me curious so I checked all four books.Two of them doesn't have any string of numbers (PS and PoA) GoF does start with number one to twenty. Only CoS has a string of numbers starting with ten to one. I guess I have the 10th edition of Cos. I think I have 3 first editions out of four. That's quite remarkable for someone who started reading the books so late in the game. From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 1 11:28:54 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 11:28:54 -0000 Subject: Different versions of books: EDITION and PRINTING Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103871 People are getting confused over which version of a given book they have. It appears that some are unaware that each EDITION may have many PRINTINGs (there's probably a technically better word to use for this, but I'm going for clarity not nit-picking technical accuracy :-). Look at the page just before the titles, where all the copyright stuff can be found. You'll probably find details of who printed your book, and the ISBN. There will also be a row of numbers. The lowest number in that row is the PRINTING number within the given edition. Sometimes minor corrections are made between PRINTINGs which are not sufficient to cause it to be a new EDITION. Think of it like a bug-fix in software. You have Major and Minor versions: EDITIONs and PRINTINGs. HTH HAND -- Phil From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 11:58:03 2004 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 11:58:03 -0000 Subject: HBP or Prince of the Half Bloods In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103872 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "claire_elise2003" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "maneelyfh" > wrote: > > What if the HBP is not someone who is a half blood wizard, just > > someone who champions the half bloods. Someone like DD.....My thinking > > is that Prince Charles is the Prince of Wales but he is not Welsh I > > do not believe.... > > > I've been thinking along the same lines. But I am wondering if it > refers to Godric Gryffindor. It was his and Salazar Slytherin's > dispute about who should or should not be admitted to Hogwarts that > started the Chamber of Secrets. Could it be that he was the Prince > of the Half Bloods (and Muggle Borns, for that matter)? > > "claire elise" After reading your post, I think I have to agree with you. In COS, there was more revealed about Salazar Slytherin. WE found out the LV is his heir. Harry being a true Gryfindor was able to summon the help so to speak of GG. So. in book 6 maybe we learn more about GG, and that Harry may be his heir or has the ability to summon his help. I think it has been posted before that the final showdown between Harry and LV will also somehow be a final showdown between SS and GG. Of course that is only part of the story. We have to figure in Luna Lovegood, who JKR said is one of her favorite characters.....I read that somewhere btw, but not sure where. Also, I think the trio may be no longer. I have to add Neville, Luna and Ginny to the mix. Lets face they are not going to stand by and not be included in an effort to help Harry. I think the last big showdown will ultimately be between Harry and LV, in the books its always just Harry and LV pretty much. Even with the help of the Order, and his friends, it will be just Harry and LV. Fran From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Thu Jul 1 12:01:52 2004 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 12:01:52 -0000 Subject: Lords and princes (was Why Tom Riddle isn't the "Prince") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103873 pandrea wrote: > If it's the latter, then we have Tom being known first as a prince, > then changing his name to Voldemort, but demoting himself by asking > his followers to call him LORD Voldemort, Lord being lower than a > prince. That seems really unlikely. I take JKR's words at face value, that Voldemort (even as Riddle) is not the HBP. However... It's not sensible to speak of 'demotion' in the context of lords and princes. Voldemort is not laying claim to a seat in the British House of Lords, as if there was a vacancy for a Marquess of Voldemort. (Nice little manor at the village of Voldemort Parva, just down the road from the town of Thingy and Lake You-Know-Where.) Lord is a relative term, it means 'master' or 'ruler'. As others have pointed out, it's often applied to God (I've never heard the suggestion that in, say, Christian theology, Satan outranks Jesus because he's the Prince of Darkness while Jesus is only Lord of Lords, though I would not put anything past the HPFGU membership). Prince, too, though often specifically referring to a son or other relative of royalty, can be used more vaguely, as in the Prince of Darkness case above, just to mean 'leader' or 'primary person'. After all, it's related to the Latin for 'first'. So IMO it's entirely reasonable to suppose that Voldemort could be styled a 'prince' because he's Heir of Slytherin, even if there has never been a formal Slytherin title; he would then go on to call himself 'Lord' Voldemort because it's a claim to supremacy - it's clear from the rebirthing scene that he wants his followers to regard him as their God. Reasonable, but almost certainly not what JKR is going to show us. David, chuckling over the thought of Theoden and Aragorn turning up at Mordor and telling Sauron "You have to give in because we are *kings* and you are only *Lord* Sauron the Great" From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 12:12:30 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 12:12:30 -0000 Subject: Who gets the Imperius curse? And when? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103874 > Paul wrote: > I feel that indeed there is something significant in the scene where > fake Moody put under the Imperius curse the whole class in GOF. We > all are considering the future events. But why not someone is still > under the imperius curse the whole time of GOF and OOTP? And to make > it even more striking, why not be more than one under the imperius > curse all this time? Just imagine the possibilities. Fake Moody > under the cover that he shows them the curses, he could enlist to > his master's bidding any student of Hogwarts!!! What a predicament! Neri: I share your excitement regarding this suggestion (naturally; I've just been owled my FEATHERBOA membership) but there might be a problem with it. You assume that the effect of the Imperius still holds when the one who put the curse is long dead (or soulless, anyway). This raises the question if imperio'ing somebody is like programming his mind, or more like directing him by remote control. The first possibility does not requires the one who put the curse to be near his victim, or even be alive, while the second possibility does. This subject was discussed in #93300: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/93300 and the ensuing thread. As you'll see, interpreting canon in this point is not easy. This discussion itself was raised following of a very frightening application I suggested for the Imperius curse in #92918: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/92918 and the following thread. Neri From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 12:16:41 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 12:16:41 -0000 Subject: Half Bloods! In-Reply-To: <0b7201c45f57$11821df0$8e2f8c45@mynewputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103875 smartone wrote: > > If, in fact, it doesn't necessarily mean half muggle, half wizard, > > but instead creature, what half-bloods do we know? Marny Helfrich answered : > Hagrid (giant) > > Fleur dela Coeur (Veela) > > Crookshanks (Kneazle) Del replies : Hagrid : he's already being discussed in other threads. Possible. Fleur : first of, she's a female, so she couldn't be a prince. And second she's a quarter Veela, not half, but that might not mean much to the purebloods. Oh and third, it's Fleur *Delacour* (of the court), not "de la coeur" which doesn't make sense gramatically. Crookshanks : uh, sure, he's part cat part Kneazle, but would that still define him as half-blood ?? I don't mind too much extending the meaning of half-blood to half-breed, but there's still an understanding that one half has to be wizard, right ? Del From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jul 1 12:39:44 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 12:39:44 -0000 Subject: Alice Longbottom In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103876 > > Potioncat: > > Or perhaps he doesn't yet know there is a message. > > > Carol: > Am I the only one who thinks that the gum wrappers are only a touching > gesture, an indication that Alice feels some connection with Neville > and is reaching out to him in the only way she can? >>snip<< > Carol, who wants to know more about Agnes, the dog-faced woman in the > same scene Potioncat: Well, that's what I thought when I first joined this group. But now I see something in every if, and, and but. It certainly is something a person with a brain injury would do, but given JKR, I think there is more to it. Particularly since she has gum wrappers all over her virtual desk and mentions them when she talks about Theo Nott on that same site. As for Agnes, see my published work at Sugarquill under "Snape's Errand" (inspired by an earlier thread along this line.) ;-) Potioncat From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jul 1 12:52:11 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 12:52:11 -0000 Subject: Harry's potions O.W.L - Outstanding-NOT. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103877 Melissa wrote: > Its possible that the test administer is walking around grading every detail > of the students technique. (like judges do at cooking or pastry contests) But > its equally possible that they are only concerned with the end result: Does > this potion produce the required result. If its the later then the student only > has to be outstanding once. > > Potioncat: Yes, I understand your point. Get it right and you have an Outstanding. And it doesn't matter that this is the only potion you've ever done correctly. But, get it wrong and you fail and it doesn't matter that this is the first potion you've ever goofed on. If the outcome is strictly whether the potion works then there are only two grade choices. (Passing or failing) I would much rather have a test where I have lots of questions, than a test where I only have one question. Actually, we don't know how this portion of the test is conducted. Or how it's graded so I guess it's all guess work on our part anyway. :-) Potioncat From lfreeman at mbc.edu Thu Jul 1 13:13:35 2004 From: lfreeman at mbc.edu (Freeman, Louise Margaret) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 09:13:35 -0400 Subject: Another candidate Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103878 I too am leaning towards Godric Gryffindor for half-blood prince by now, but am also intriqued by the idea that it's one of the ghosts. Of the bunch, I think Nearly Headless Nick is the most likely choice... he was important in CoS, and was played by a big-name actor in the movies (John Cleese). even though it was a fairly small part. That makes more sense if they new he would be featured more prominently in a future book. Plus, there are extra features about him (his decapitation song on JKR's website that were edited out of the text. Louise From sherriola at earthlink.net Thu Jul 1 13:27:19 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 07:27:19 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Marauder's Map: Selective Against Marauders? In-Reply-To: <00a201c45f4b$6297fbd0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: <002c01c45f6f$236ef7a0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 103879 The map can't be selective against Marauders because Lupin saw Pettigrew on it, it's the reason he realized Sirius wasn't the killer. The reason Harry never saw Sirius on it was that he never looked at the map while Sirius was inside Hogwarts grounds. Sirius only snuck in once, the night he tried to attack Pettigrew the rat and Ron woke up screaming, right? Harry wasn't looking at the map, he was asleep. As for Pettigrew, well, Harry didn't use the map all that often and when he did, he wasn't looking at the areas where Ron happened to be nor the Gryffindor tower where Pettigrew probably stayed most of the time. I think we can probably count on one hand the amount of times Harry used the map, it's not that improbable that he didn't see Pettigrew on it. Alina. Sherry now Actually, Val said that maybe only the marauders could see each other, so Lupin could have seen Peter. Problem with that is that Snape saw Lupin, and he certainly wasn't a marauder. As for Sirius, he was on the grounds several times in POA. He was in the castle on Halloween, when he attacked the portrait of the Fat lady. He was there when he went after Peter with the knife. Harry saw him and Crookshanks wandering around the grounds one night. He came to the Quidditch game. So, he was there several times. however, conveniently, none of those times were when Harry was looking at the map. I agree about Peter. Harry wasn't ever looking for Ron on the map, so I don't think he would have noticed the name. sherry G From mnaperrone at aol.com Thu Jul 1 13:31:32 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 13:31:32 -0000 Subject: Prince of Walpurgis - Tales from the Dark Side. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103880 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "smartone564" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" > > wrote: > > > > > I think we are dealing more with a conceptual or metaphorical > > > prince as in 'The Fresh Prince of Bel Aire' (USA TV show). Tom > > > Riddle, was a brilliant student, intelligent, skilled, > > > knowledgable, and a powerful wizard, and was also a handsome > > > charismatic leader. Add to that, the fact (assumed as fact) that > > > he was descended from one of the greatest wizards of all time, > > > Salizar Slytherin. > > > > Smartone: > > > > After all that wonderful work (and moral lesson?) I must point > > out that JKR has specifically said that LV and Harry are not the > > HBP. Done, finished, stop, cease and desist. > > > > Asian_lovr2: > > A point you and others have made nicely. However, we others are making > the point, relative to Tom Riddle and Voldemort, that a caterpillar is > not a butterfly. > > Tom Riddle could have chosen to become the greatest caterpillar who > ever lived, but instead he chose to become the darkest most evil > butterfly. > > After his metamorphosis, Voldemort was not Tom Riddle. So, it is > certainly fair to regard them as separate entities. It may not be > correct in the end, but in terms of analysis and fair speculation it > is a fair assesment. > > JKR said '...not Harry or Voldemort...', but in CoS, Dobby also said, > (paraphrased) '...not Voldemort...' when he meant Tom Riddle. That > sets a precedence in the book for regarding them as separate entities. > That doesn't guarantee that 'separate entities' is correct, but it > does set a precedent. JKR could be doing the same thing again. > > Ally: Steve, I agree completely. This idea that the HBP is some actual descendant of a King is a bit out of place in the HP Universe where we've never seen such references to royalty. I definitely think JKR is using it as a metaphorical "prince." And I also agree with your statements about V and Riddle not always being the same person. There WAS a transformation from one to the other. I think it WILL be Tom Riddle and we will find out about HOW and WHY he became Voldemort. AND, wouldn't that be the simplest, most direct answer to the question be Tom Riddle? Why stand on your ear to try to justify it as Dudley or Dean Thomas or Neville or a Weasley when the simplest explanation - the one that would facilitate the resolution of the story - fits so well. From Meliss9900 at aol.com Thu Jul 1 13:33:08 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:33:08 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Trelawney's predictions Message-ID: <15f.31712a4b.2e156c94@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103881 In a message dated 06/28/2004 7:30:53 PM Central Daylight Time, gbannister10 at aol.com writes: > (2) "By the way, my dear," she shot suddenly at Parvati > Patil, "beware a red-haired man." > Parvati gave a startled look at Ron, who was right behind her and > edged her chair away from him.(p.80) > > Again, I do not see any evidence to support this being fulfilled. > > And what intrigues me most is the red haired man. Is there anything > significant hidden in this or is it now too far in the past or part > of ST's "patter"? Anyone else got any thoughts? Or am I just chasing > shadows? > > One could argue that she should have been wary in setting her sister up with Ron for the Yule Ball. But I think when Trelawney's in her 'teaching' mode she just throws things out there and hopes that something sticks. I don't know whether JKR intends to make Ron a seer or if she just uses him to pass along future story hints but I think that Ron's sarcastic comments/predictions are the ones that should have attention paid to them. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eleanor at dreamvine.org.uk Thu Jul 1 13:05:06 2004 From: eleanor at dreamvine.org.uk (iamvine) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 13:05:06 -0000 Subject: Who gets the Imperius curse? And when? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103882 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "paul_terzis" wrote: > I feel that indeed there is something significant in the scene where > fake Moody put under the Imperius curse the whole class in GOF. We > all are considering the future events. But why not someone is still > under the imperius curse the whole time of GOF and OOTP? That could be very, very interesting. But how does it work with the end of GoF? Does the curse break when the Dementor Kisses Crouch Jr? Or can someone else take over? Or maybe the fake Moody's instructions ("act normal until I say otherwise") are still in effect, in which case nobody would ever be able to tell the difference, but the poor cursed person would be drifting around in a dreamy daze for the rest of their life? Eleanor From pandrea100 at hotmail.com Thu Jul 1 13:28:43 2004 From: pandrea100 at hotmail.com (pandrea100) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 13:28:43 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103883 > > Potioncat (with regard to Albus Percival Wolfric Brian Dumbledore): > > I just happened to wonder, is there a reason a person would have 4 > > given names? I think it's just for comic effect ... all those grand names and then 'Brian'! However I did wonder whether Percy Weasley was named after him - the Weasleys are reasonably good friends with Dumbledore, after all. Pandrea From val_gal_05 at yahoo.ca Thu Jul 1 13:34:52 2004 From: val_gal_05 at yahoo.ca (val_gal_05) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 13:34:52 -0000 Subject: Marauder's Map: Selective Against Marauders? In-Reply-To: <00a201c45f4b$6297fbd0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103884 Alina wrote: >>> The map can't be selective against Marauders because Lupin saw Pettigrew on it, it's the reason he realized Sirius wasn't the killer. The reason Harry never saw Sirius on it was that he never looked at the map while Sirius was inside Hogwarts grounds. Sirius only snuck in once, the night he tried to attack Pettigrew the rat and Ron woke up screaming, right? Harry wasn't looking at the map, he was asleep. As for Pettigrew, well, Harry didn't use the map all that often and when he did, he wasn't looking at the areas where Ron happened to be nor the Gryffindor tower where Pettigrew probably stayed most of the time. I think we can probably count on one hand the amount of times Harry used the map, it's not that improbable that he didn't see Pettigrew on it.<<< Val responds: Yeah, you're probably right, and I doubt my theory is correct, but for the sake of defending it: I meant that you can't see MWPP if you're NOT one of them. Remus happens to be one of them therefore it still works if he can see Wormtail and Sirius on the map. Why would they want to do that? 'Cause when they were still in school, they'd want to be able to find each other and they could use the Map for that but they wouldn't really want that information getting anywhere past their little circle would they? We know that the Map is very selective and it adapts to the user's mind from what we can gather on it highlighting areas you're actually looking for, etc, right? So I'm sure it wouldn't have been too hard for them to make a spell so that only the makers could see themselves on the Map, and everyone else can have the full extent of it except without that little privelege. Hey, while we're on the topic, does it say/does anyone know when the Map was made? I REALLY need to reread the books again... Val From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Thu Jul 1 13:39:48 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 13:39:48 -0000 Subject: 24 hours again In-Reply-To: <000c01c45ee8$3c608a80$534c6d51@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103885 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "manawydan" wrote: >snip> > All of these lead me to think that Dumbledore had advance knowledge, but not > much. Just enough time to get a few people there, arriving in time to > witness what happened but not to influence it. > > And I'm still with you about Dumbledore spending his time debriefing (or > perhaps interrogating) the source of his information. > Hm. Who knew what when - a few answers to those sorts of questions would make life a lot easier for the poor poster. You could go back even further. A couple of days back I was relaxing over a pint, chatting and recounting some of the threads on the site to someone who has read the books but can't be considered to be an avid fan. And I was asked a question I've never considered before: Who told Voldy that the Potters and Longbottoms were the hot favourites for starring roles in the upcoming Herod re-enactment? IIRC, DD says that he identified Harry and Neville as likely candidates from families *that were in the Order*. A nice distinction. Presumably he produced his short-list based on the "thrice defied" phrase (another blank spot in our knowledge - have they faced Voldy 3 times and survived? Then why not also at GH?) He's heard the Prophecy but tells no-one about it. He makes his deductions. Meanwhile the eavesdropper hears only the first part of the Prophecy (how much of it? We need to know!). It then takes *2 years* for Voldy to react. Why? If the eavesdropper is a Voldy supporter and passes the message on, that plus Peter (who according to Sirius worked with the baddies for 2 years before the GH debacle) leads one to think that he would have made his strike much sooner. This could indicate that the eavesdropper *didn't* pass on the information immediately, but waited a looong time before doing so. Or that there was *another* leak much closer to the time of the actual attack. This leak was then picked up by DD's agent and passed back. Otherwise the protracted time delay followed by the sudden hurry-up to get the Potters under cover doesn't make much sense. This would sit very well with your theory of a fourth (or even fifth?) person being involved. It do get complicated, don't it? Kneasy From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Thu Jul 1 13:50:10 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 13:50:10 -0000 Subject: Prince of Walpurgis - Tales from the Dark Side. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103886 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mnaper2001" wrote: > Steve, I agree completely. This idea that the HBP is some actual > descendant of a King is a bit out of place in the HP Universe where > we've never seen such references to royalty. I definitely think JKR > is using it as a metaphorical "prince." And I also agree with your > statements about V and Riddle not always being the same person. > There WAS a transformation from one to the other. I think it WILL be > Tom Riddle and we will find out about HOW and WHY he became Voldemort. And one of the weaknesses of the books so far is that the main villain is such a cardboard figure. We NEED the information about Tom Riddle's past to give some substance to the present-day Voldemort. As he stands, he's just an inexplicable menace. When are we ever going to find out what really motivates him, and drove him to make the decisions he did, now that we're down to the last two books? I think that logically, JKR has to do something with the main characters she's already got onstage, instead of just leaving them with a line or two apiece while introducing yet more. It's *time* to find out about Tom Riddle - I've thought that Book 6 would be devoted to his story for a year now, well before any hints or titles came out. It just makes sense. > > AND, wouldn't that be the simplest, most direct answer to the > question be Tom Riddle? Why stand on your ear to try to justify it > as Dudley or Dean Thomas or Neville or a Weasley when the simplest > explanation - the one that would facilitate the resolution of the > story - fits so well. This hearkens back to the "Simplify! Simplify!" thread of a week ago or so. As someone pointed out, the readers are dazzlingly creative in their theories, but the books themselves have never turned out to be quite so elaborate. There are a few twists and tricks in each, but they are still reasonably plain adventures, not elaborate anagrams which mean the exact opposite of what they seem to mean. Wanda From quigonginger at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 14:08:27 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 14:08:27 -0000 Subject: FILK: The Vaults Down Under Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103887 The Vaults Down Under to the tune of A Land Down Under by Men at Work. To Haggridd (written by request) I may be mistaken, but I believe this is Griphook's first solo. Spend all day with a pile of money. In a railway cart that drives real funny. We have a few curses, to make thieves nervous, A ride to make you lose your breakfast. So I say... I work in the vaults down under. Where getting 'round is a wonder. Dragons roar-can you hear them thunder? You better run-you better not plunder. We just hired a man named Weasley. At six-foot-four, he stood out eas'ly. I asked "Can these carts you now steer right?" He just smiled and hit his head on a stalactite. And we said, Can't go to the vaults down under. Concuss yourself and then chunder. There's no room 'round here for a blunder. No, go back up, a desk job's your one, dear. Couple books, by our dear JK. One of odd beasts and one of game play. We tell patrons, "You must go and buy these. The galleons all go to good chatiries." And they say.. Oh, moneys stored in a vault down under. (oh, yeah, yeah) Where getting 'round is a wonder. Dragons roar-can you hear them thunder. You better run, you better not plunder. Repeat chorus ad nauseum. Ginger, who had to look up stalagmite to see which was which. Hagrid's advice didn't help much. From pandrea100 at hotmail.com Thu Jul 1 13:48:27 2004 From: pandrea100 at hotmail.com (pandrea100) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 13:48:27 -0000 Subject: Marauder's Map: Selective Against Marauders? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103888 > Alina wrote: > As for Pettigrew, well, Harry > didn't use the map all that often and when he did, he wasn't looking at the > areas where Ron happened to be nor the Gryffindor tower where Pettigrew > probably stayed most of the time. I think we can probably count on one hand the amount of times Harry used the map, it's not that improbable that he didn't see Pettigrew on it Do we know that the Map can see through an animagi disguise? I have always thought that in rat form, Peter showed up on the map AS Wormtail, therefore neither Harry nor the twins ever noticed anything funny. The time that Lupin noticed "Peter" on the Map, he had for some reason - perhaps to get away from Crookshanks - had to temporarily transform back into human form, just for a minute - unluckily for him, the very minute Lupin happened to be looking at the Map. I'm not sure if this theory really holds, though, is there anything to contradict it? Pandrea From klekatgirl at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 14:23:14 2004 From: klekatgirl at yahoo.com (Karen) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 14:23:14 -0000 Subject: BOOK 6 ANNOUNCEMENT ON JKR WEBSITE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103889 There's a brick wall on her website and some of the bricks turn black when you click on them. Would she hide a clue behind that? Karen --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jekatiska" wrote: > > > JKR: I shall tell you one thing without making you shift > > any bricks at all: the HBP is neither Harry nor Voldemort. And > > that's all I'm saying on THAT subject until the book's published. > > My addition to the discussion. Guesses who it could be, Colin? ;) > Lockhart? ;) - but seriously Mark Evans sounds more plausible. Or how > about Snape? I'm still convinced there's more to him than we know. > > But stupid question: has anyone got past that brick wall she mentions? > I'm utterly frustrated with tapping bricks and getting nowhere... > > Sinking back to lurkdom for another six months, > > Jekatiska From pandrea100 at hotmail.com Thu Jul 1 13:52:28 2004 From: pandrea100 at hotmail.com (pandrea100) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 13:52:28 -0000 Subject: Lords and princes (was Why Tom Riddle isn't the "Prince") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103890 David wrote: > I take JKR's words at face value, that Voldemort (even as Riddle) is > not the HBP. However... > > It's not sensible to speak of 'demotion' in the context of lords and > princes. (snip) > So IMO it's entirely reasonable to suppose that Voldemort could be > styled a 'prince' because he's Heir of Slytherin, even if there has > never been a formal Slytherin title; he would then go on to call > himself 'Lord' Voldemort because it's a claim to supremacy - it's > clear from the rebirthing scene that he wants his followers to > regard him as their God. Okay, that makes sense I suppose. However, I also don't think JK is being super-tricky about Riddle being different from Voldemort - could be totally wrong, but it just doesn't seem to feel right. How many titles can one dark wizard have before it gets annoying? > David, chuckling over the thought of Theoden and Aragorn turning up > at Mordor and telling Sauron "You have to give in because we are > *kings* and you are only *Lord* Sauron the Great" Ha! Pandrea From pandrea100 at hotmail.com Thu Jul 1 13:57:28 2004 From: pandrea100 at hotmail.com (pandrea100) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 13:57:28 -0000 Subject: 24 hours again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103891 Kneasy wrote: If the eavesdropper is a > Voldy supporter and passes the message on, that plus Peter (who > according to Sirius worked with the baddies for 2 years before the > GH debacle) leads one to think that he would have made his strike > much sooner. Hang on though, the salient point was "born to ...". Isn't the obvious explanation that at the time the prophecy was first heard, no one in the Order had any children? Only when Harry and Neville were born did it became urgent. He could have done a Terminator and tried to kill the parents before they gave birth, but if he'd missed them three times already, it might have seemed easier to wait to take out a supposedly defenceless baby. Also there were probably a lot of other things going on, evil deeds to do, resistance to fight, dark spells to conquer death to be mastered, etc. From mauranen at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 13:59:58 2004 From: mauranen at yahoo.com (jekatiska) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 13:59:58 -0000 Subject: Analyzing Plot Twists: Simplify, Simplify! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103892 > Tara wrote: I think most stuff is really just what it appears to be: James, Lily, and Sirius are really dead; Petunia and Dudley are really Muggles; Harry and Hermione are not related; everybody else is pretty much who they appear to be; and so on. Maybe we invent these notions because we'd like certain facts to be changed (Harry's parents not to be really dead, for a start).> > vmonte wrote: I agree that Lily and James are dead. But I also think that there is one important thing that is being forgotten in all the time-travel posts (including mine). It's that whether you believe in a time-travel which is fixed, or not, you still cannot force people to behave the way you would like them to. People have free-will. If Harry's parents believed that the only way they could save Harry was for themselves to die, then they would choose to die, no matter what the interference.> Jekatiska comments: Thank you, Tara, I couldn't agree more. Although it's fun to come up with weird, elaborate plot lines sometimes, they are highly unlikely to end up in the books, and so we should stick to the _likely_ stories when trying to predict what's going to happen. The dead are and will stay dead. As for time travel, as we have seen, there is not much one can do in the past. Hermione said in the chapter where they used the time-turner with Harry: "We are breaking one of the most important wizarding laws. No one is supposed to change time." (I don't have my book here so I can't check the exact wording or the page) I think this states it quite plainly: there's nothing we can do about what's gone. And anyway, I don't think it would be possible to use a time-turner to travel back many years. Would the time-traveller have to live all that time twice? From pandrea100 at hotmail.com Thu Jul 1 14:01:07 2004 From: pandrea100 at hotmail.com (pandrea100) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 14:01:07 -0000 Subject: Prince of Walpurgis - Tales from the Dark Side. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103893 Wanda wrote: > This hearkens back to the "Simplify! Simplify!" thread of a week ago > or so. As someone pointed out, the readers are dazzlingly creative > in their theories, but the books themselves have never turned out to > be quite so elaborate. There are a few twists and tricks in each, > but they are still reasonably plain adventures, not elaborate > anagrams which mean the exact opposite of what they seem to mean. That's true, but I think that Godric Gryffindor is an equally simple solution to the Prince question. Credibility-straining suggestions like Dean, Seamus, Flitwick etc aren't the only other possibility. I do agree we definitely need to know more about Tom Riddle and, specifically, why he was so keen to conquer death. Pandrea From pandrea100 at hotmail.com Thu Jul 1 13:19:46 2004 From: pandrea100 at hotmail.com (pandrea100) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 13:19:46 -0000 Subject: Crazy, Crazy Theory About How Harry Will Vanquish Voldemort In-Reply-To: <20040701052221.7056.qmail@web21205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103894 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Gena Babin wrote: > > pandrea100 wrote: > GBK wrote: Harry is not the type to want to kill anyone > > I disagree ... I think when he finally faces Voldemort, he WILL want > to kill him, after all that has happened. But the big difference > between them is that Harry will resist this impulse, as he did in the > Shrieking Shack. It might sound like a small point, but I think it's > important: two boys, both with difficult upbringings, but making > different choices. Harry is the parallel to Voldemort, that is the > reason he is the one to finally face him. In 'losing' (not killing, > perhaps dropping his wand), he will win, just as in dying, Lily won. > > Pandrea > > -------- > > I agree with this too. He may think a lot on what he will have to > do, but in the end he will have to kill Voldie. His hate for Voldie > for taking the people he loves away will get very large I'm sure, and > like in ootp he will snap. He will kill if it comes to it, unlike > Voldie they both kill for different reasons, and somehow I think that > that will also help him. Knowing that while he is killing, he is > doing it for the greater good. I think maybe you misunderstood me - I don't think Harry will kill Voldemort. He will want to, but will change his mind - and THAT is what will get him the victory. If he killed Voldemort, he would end up becoming the same as him. Only in resisting his impulse and hate will he win. I don't buy the greater good argument and I don't, ultimately, think JK does either, nor would she put it in a book ostensibly aimed at children. Pandrea From quigonginger at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 14:31:34 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 14:31:34 -0000 Subject: Filk: Our Angel, Our Hermione Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103895 Our Angel, Our Hermione. to the tune of Angel of the Morning. Written by Chip Taylor (who also wrote Wild Thing-you learn something new every day) recorded in 1968 by Merillee Rush and in 1981 by Juice Newton To people who mix up song lyrics ;-) Dr. and Dr. Granger sing: Our Muggle world can't bind your head, Not if there's magic in your heart. Though we can't fathom books you've read, You now your education start. So Hogwarts soon will be your home. Remember one thing when you've gone: You're still our angel, our Hermione, Angel. Just brush your teeth before you leave, please, baby. You're still our angel, our Hermione, Angel. Please floss when you're away from me. Maybe a spell cast on a whim Or in the middle of a row, Will cause your dental work to thin, Or cause it to erupt somehow. But if the nurse can't set it straight, We've got insurance throught the State. You're still our angel, our Hermione, Angel. Just brush your teeth before you leave, please, baby. You're still our angel, our Hermione, Angel. Please floss when you're away, We don't want tooth decay, oh, please, Flouride cheers up the day, Good for years, baby, baby, baby, You're still our angel, our Hermione, Angel... repeat chorus and fade (and floss and rinse) Ginger, who had *way* too good a time with this one. From chany_p at yahoo.de Thu Jul 1 13:39:03 2004 From: chany_p at yahoo.de (chany_p) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 13:39:03 -0000 Subject: The Anagram game - was Re: Alice Longbottom In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103896 When I read about St. Mungo and Alice Longbottom I thought there might be some of LV sevants that keep the Longbottoms under drugs. Maybe Alice Longbottom is not so brain damaged as it shows. Perhaps the gum papers she is giving to Neville mean something. There could be something written on it in invisible ink. I felt like it would be a cry for help. From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Thu Jul 1 14:39:40 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 14:39:40 -0000 Subject: A different interpretation of the prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103897 > smartone wrote: > < > After all, we are still slightly unclear as to what happened to Neville's parents, except that they were both tortured into insanity. (I forget why exactly, but werent they looking for information?). Maybe they also wanted to hit the other baby, just out of spite or something. > "smartone" boyd: Most of the following has been said before by others, but I have a couple of new conjectures. But first the quick background: In the Pensieve scene in GoF, we find out that Neville's parents were tortured *after* the fall of LV at GH. We also see that Bellatrix and Barty Jr were sent to Azkaban for it, along with two other DEs. But IIRC, nowhere does anyone explicitly admit to doing that specific torturing nor why they did it. We have to trust that Barty Sr got the right foursome (likely since only Barty Jr protested and he is later revealed to be a faithful DE) and we are left to guess at why the torture took place. Which raises the age-old question: why did these DEs torture the Longbottoms *after* the fall of LV? JKR could have just made this happen before his fall if there was nothing more sinister going on, right? It just doesn't make sense that the DEs are trying to find and kill Neville, the possible subject of the prophecy; LV is gone, assumed by many to be dead. And why did JKR spend so many valuable pages dancing around *not* telling us what happened and why, but instead giving us enough clues to *guess*? Classic JKR misdirection. I like the following alternatives: - The Longbottoms were spies for LV who turned on the DEs after the fall of LV and were caught and tortured for it by the 4 faithful DEs. Sure, they loved Neville, but they also hated mixed-bloods (being purebloods themselves) and therefore supported LV. - Neville's granny was a secret DE or spy for LV who was discovered by his parents after LVs fall, and she orchestrated their removal via Cruciatus and perhaps a long-term memory charm, which may have hit Neville as well. - The Longbottoms discovered something even more central to the DEs than LV--such as the source of his powers. They stumbled upon information about how he became the all powerful dark lord, information that included the secrets about Salazar Slytherin and his plans to rid the world of mixed bloods. I think Salazar started this whole series in motion eons ago and that he is the HBP (a secret known only to a few DEs and the Longbottoms), see my recent SSHARP OWW posts. My favorite is the last, obviously, and I'm desperately searching for the time to put together a canonical defense of it. But only if you're interested. A quickie here, though. Smartone also said: > Yet her "extremely carefully" worded prophecy uses "either" and "neither." Could it then be read as "and EITHER (Harry or Neville) must die at the hand of the OTHER (Voldemort) for NEITHER (Harry nor Neville) can live while the OTHER (Voldemort) survives" ? < boyd here again: if Slytherin is the real villain and inhabits Tom Riddle, then we could read the prophecy as "and EITHER (Tom Riddle or Slytherin) must die at the hand of the OTHER (Harry) for NEITHER (Tom nor Salazar) can live while the OTHER (Harry) survives"? So when Harry survived the AK, he sealed the fate of either Tom or Salazar. Perhaps the AK still must take one of their spirits, but has yet to be directed by Harry. --boyd crossing the fine line between crazy-like-a-fox and just plain crazy From tracysnell at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 13:44:04 2004 From: tracysnell at yahoo.com (tracy) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 13:44:04 -0000 Subject: Dudley Dursley? (WAS: Re: Is Mark Evans the half blood prince?) In-Reply-To: <40E0EBE2.000046.03540@NHCD> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103898 Has anyone considered, and I know I'm new here, that perhaps Dudley Dursley is the half-blood prince? I read something in the Lexicon this morning that triggered this thought. Bear with me. Remember the howler that Petunia gets when Vernon tries to throw Harry out of the house in OoP? something about,"....remember the pact that you made when you took the boy in" or something like that. What if, as Lexicon supposes, Dudley did display some magical prowess. Given the iffy state of "half bloods vs pure bloods," (Think about it, Voldemort is a half blood, born of a witch and a muggle, but JK also refers to Harry as a half blood, but both his parents were magical people. Lily just happened to be a mud blood, but she certainly had powers, so half blood doesn't, in the strictest terms, really apply to Harry, as Dumbledore infers at the end of OoP). What could that pact be? We know that Petunia isn't magical, or not magical enough to get sent to Hogwarts. Or is she? She seems to know more about the magical world then she lets on, as we see in OoP. We know that Vernon despises anything magical, so for Dudley to display any magical tendencies, it would probably drive Vernon right out of the family, much in the way Tom Riddle Sr. abandoned his wife. Maybe this thought terrified Petunia, this...similarity to Voldemort's family history. She obviously knows Voldemort's story. If Petunia is, indeed, magical, and posing as a muggle, a possibility raised in Lexicon, then wouldn't that make Dudley a half-blood? We already know he is treated like a Prince by his mother. Maybe even Vernon is aware, and that is the reason that Petunia and Vernon scatter and bend to his whims every time he starts a temper, fearing that Dudley's magical abilities will "appear" if they don't give him his way and come him down. They certainly seem to be at his mercy. So, your thoughts on this? Sincerely, the new kid From quigonginger at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 14:46:18 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 14:46:18 -0000 Subject: Correction on "vaults down under" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103899 In message 103887, I wrote chateries, or some such nonsense. It should be charities. I am duly shamed, as I try to proofread carefully. Sorry about that. Ginger, off to iron her hands, feet and, if accessible, spleen. From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 1 14:52:12 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 14:52:12 -0000 Subject: First US Edition of GoF (WAS: Scans of Relevant Pages) In-Reply-To: <40E358BC.5040400@tds.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103900 squeakinby wrote: [snip] > Usually the last ^^^^ > number in the long line is the number printing it was. If the last ^^^^ > number is 1, it's a first printing. If it's 23, it's the 23rd > printing. ITYM "lowest" rather than "last". For example a book might have a row of figures like | | | 4 6 8 10 12 11 9 7 5 | | | This would then be from the fourth printing. The next print run would then show: | | | 6 8 10 12 11 9 7 5 | | | Some publishers alternate even and odd numbers from each end, usually if the row is centred on the page, so it stays that way as they chip the smaller numbers off; some put them in one straight run. YMMV as they say. HTH HAND -- Phil From whizbang121 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 15:03:28 2004 From: whizbang121 at yahoo.com (whizbang) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 15:03:28 -0000 Subject: Different versions of books: EDITION and PRINTING In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103901 --- "Phil Boswell" wrote: > It appears that some are unaware that each EDITION may have many > PRINTINGs ... >... Look at the page just before the titles, where all the copyright stuff > can be found. You'll probably find details of who printed your book, > and the ISBN. There will also be a row of numbers. > > The lowest number in that row is the PRINTING number within the given > edition. > > Sometimes minor corrections are made between PRINTINGs which are not > sufficient to cause it to be a new EDITION. > > Think of it like a bug-fix in software. You have Major and Minor > versions: EDITIONs and PRINTINGs. > > HTH HAND > -- > Phil Whizbang: That's a good explanation. If a book is revised or has something like a new preface or such added, it's called a new edition. As far as I know, all Harry Potter Books are still in the first edition. But there have been numerous printing runs. A book from the first printing run, or pressing, is already valuable depending on it's condistion. Bloomsbury is more valuable than Scholastic. If you follow the link, it explains how to tell which printing run a given Harry Potter book came from. http://collectbooks.about.com/library/weekly/aabyb111201a.htm From whizbang121 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 15:13:59 2004 From: whizbang121 at yahoo.com (whizbang) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 15:13:59 -0000 Subject: A different interpretation of the prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103902 boyd_smythe wrote: > But IIRC, nowhere does anyone explicitly admit to doing that specific > torturing nor why they did it. > Which raises the age-old question: why did these DEs torture the > Longbottoms *after* the fall of LV? JKR could have just made this > happen before his fall if there was nothing more sinister going on, > right? Whizbang: I thought the DEs tortured the Longbottoms for information about Voldemort. They were trying to find him or what had happened to him. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Thu Jul 1 15:13:37 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 15:13:37 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103903 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snow15145" wrote: > Kneasy: > >snipped< > Nurture or nature? Do bloodlines define > the person in the Potterverse, or is it up-bringing? Or both? > > Snow: > I have to say that this particular line brought to mind two specific > individuals. One is Harry and the other is Voldemort. There > relationship as far as upbringing is quite similar as are there > bloodlines and yet differences "It is our choices " > Kneasy: Hmm. Well, I intended it in a much broader sense - that JKR seems to have made inherited bloodlines a significant factor in her back-story. I mumble about this in part of post 68045. > > Snow: > Two points two this statement actually. The first would be that I > would have to trust that Peter had actually been made SK according to > Sirius' request. The second is more of a question, why would you feel > that Sirius needs to contact or has contact with the Potters? Sirius > said GOF pg. 365 " The night they died, I'd arranged to check on > Peter " Sirius arranged previously to check on Peter. Kneasy: Well, yes - Peter was made SK on Sirius's suggestion. He says so at the Shrieking Shack. Admittedly only Sirius says so, but there is no denial from Peter. Now if Sirius made Peter SK without first consulting James, that would be a whole different cauldron of flobberworms. After all, we only have Sirius's word - and DD says that he gave evidence that Sirius was the SK. If the Sirius's 'cunning plan' (truly worthy of Baldrick at his best) was such a sure-fire thing, why did Sirius need to 'check up on Peter'? Just what was he checking? Why would he need to check? Peter as SK was supposed to be a secret known only to the Potters, Peter and Sirius. And wasn't Sirius supposed to be in hiding? There's something very odd about this incident. > > Snow: > I think you might be wrong here Kneasy. Sirius wouldn't have lasted a > minute with Voldemort because when Voldy gave him the ultimatum of > tell or be killed he would have died. > Kneasy: Unlikely. When you want answers to questions you keep on asking them. That's assuming that he's having an off-day with his mind-reading. Combine Crucio! with mind-reading and he'd get any information inside Sirius's head. The only reason the Longbottoms didn't answer the DEs was because they didn't know. > Kneasy: > Then the aftermath. More strokes of Black genius. He arrives at the > house. As the supposed SK he's the prime suspect for the betrayal of > the Potters. Does he proclaim his innocence? No. Just this one time, > at a moment when his penchant for excuses might actually do him > some good, he keeps his mouth shut. Why? >snip< > > Snow: > Possibly because his very best friend is lying in rubble and Sirius > feels it is all his fault because he felt guilty (as in the Shrieking > Shack) of Indirectly betraying his friend. > Kneasy: His first thoughts are of revenge (or so his actions imply). Sirius is not the strong silent type; he's rash, intemperate and with a big mouth. More typical behaviour would be to be ranting and raving and accusing all and sundry. He doesn't. He decides there and then that Peter is to blame, and goes off to kill him - without telling anyone. Even DD states that "Sirius has not acted like an innocent man." - this after the shenanigins of PoA. The same can be said for Godric's Hollow. > > Snow: > You're right. How dare Sirius care about his dead friends more than > himself and his own hide at this point. > No trial you say, good point I say. Pretend for a moment that Sirius > is innocent what would you say then to the who's afraid of Sirius > talking too much? > Kneasy: Care? He says he cares, true, but he's got a funny way of showing it. Expose the traitor? Bring him to justice? Find out what other information he's passed to Voldy? Certainly not. Kill him before anyone else can speak to him. Sirius as judge, jury and executioner. Wonderful. And just by chance remove the one person that can confirm or deny the tale that Sirius is peddling. How convenient. The only people who could benefit by Sirius being slung straight in the slammer without a trial are those with guilty knowledge. Does it benefit DD and the Order? Can't see how. Does it benefit the Ministry? Maybe, but only if the Ministry was involved with guarding GH. Could it benefit the DEs? Yes, if Sirius has certain information or is associated with them.= > Snow: > Have to correct you a bit here. POA pg. 379 "Well your parents > appointed me your guardian," said Black stiffly. "Guardian" is much > more than just a Godfather. > Kneasy: Anyone else able to back up his statement? To be appointed 'Guardian' in the UK requires legally registered documentation. See any? Have you heard of any? Neither have I. The Potters were a young couple; would they envisage both of them being snuffed out and Harry surviving? Yes it happened (we think), but it was a pretty unique event. Totally unforseeable. Even so, if things had worked out as Voldy planned Harry would be dead and Lily alive. Frankly, I take everything that Sirius says with a *very* large pinch of sa= lt. Too much of it just happens to support whatever it is Sirius wants. Kneasy From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Thu Jul 1 15:18:39 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 15:18:39 -0000 Subject: A different interpretation of the prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103904 > Whizbang wrote: > I thought the DEs tortured the Longbottoms for information about > Voldemort. They were trying to find him or what had happened to him. < boyd: Just reread GoF yesterday, and the reasons behind the torturing are not actually known, just guessed at by the characters. But why exactly would the *Longbottoms* be the ones to ask about LV's whereabouts, anyway? We haven't heard of them being at GH. Something's fishy there. --boyd From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Thu Jul 1 15:22:17 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 15:22:17 -0000 Subject: 24 hours again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103905 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pandrea100" wrote: > Kneasy wrote: If the eavesdropper is a > > Voldy supporter and passes the message on, that plus Peter (who > > according to Sirius worked with the baddies for 2 years before the > > GH debacle) leads one to think that he would have made his strike > > much sooner. > > Hang on though, the salient point was "born to ...". Isn't the > obvious explanation that at the time the prophecy was first heard, no > one in the Order had any children? Only when Harry and Neville were > born did it became urgent. He could have done a Terminator and tried > to kill the parents before they gave birth, but if he'd missed them > three times already, it might have seemed easier to wait to take out > a supposedly defenceless baby. Also there were probably a lot of > other things going on, evil deeds to do, resistance to fight, dark > spells to conquer death to be mastered, etc. Indeed, born to. But the attack still took 13 or 15 months (I forget which) after birth had taken place to organise. That's a long time in a war. True, torturing Muggles is fun, but you'd think it'd pall in that time and other forms of entertainment, such as knocking off the competition, would occur to them. Even Herod with his primitive assets could manage it in a few weeks. OK, I'm paranoid, but that time scale doesn't seem right given what we know. There's more to it, is my guess. Kneasy From jjjjjulie at aol.com Thu Jul 1 15:30:02 2004 From: jjjjjulie at aol.com (jjjjjuliep) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 15:30:02 -0000 Subject: Hermione's parents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103906 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > As you said four times in this paragraph, that's what YOU *think*. > Other people think otherwise. And nobody can speak for JKR. Hi Del, Thanks for your response to my post. First, let me say that I am sorry if my post and my use of "I think" has upset you. I use "I think" because on another mailing list I participate in I got in "trouble" with folks because they felt I didn't qualify my statements enough and in an attempt to keep things harmonious with them (some of the problems had to do with not being native speakers of English), I began to make a point of saying "I think" It's intended to soften, as it were, my comments. I wrote: > > the opposite instead. She's created a fantasy world where the usual > > rules pretty much do not apply, and that's why I think it's perhaps > > not very productive to try to investigate things that really aren't > > there. Del replied: > Your last line doesn't make sense to me. When a writer creates a > world, they can never hope to describe it completely. On the other > hand, they usually DO hope that their readers will use their > imagination to fill in the holes and expand this imaginary world, > according to their own sensibilities and experiences. So saying that > some things aren't really there is saying that we shouldn't apply our > imagination and emotions to the Potterverse. What's the point of > reading the books then ? Please know I'm not saying anything of the sort. Indeed, if I felt that way, why would I join a mailing list devoted to discussing the books? ;-) I have no problem with anyone "filling in the holes." However, at the same time, I spend a good part of my time reading documents and trying to figure out what happened, and having to fill in holes within a set of relatively strict parameters.. > Nope she wouldn't necessarily, because the story is told from Harry's > point of view. So for JKR to be able to tell us anything, Harry must > first come to realize it. And Harry is almost the last person on Earth > who could notice a problem in a *family* relationship. Hermione would > pretty much have to tell him flat out, and that's just not her type. To some extent, the book is told from Harry's point of view. However, there are 2, in my opinion, important qualifications to that POV. 1. The book is not told from Harry's eyes, or in the first person, and 2., the narrator (whether it's JKR or someone else is an issue I'll not bring up here) does show us scenes which take place apart from Harry, and to which Harry is not an eyewitness. > If people want to dwell on other aspects of the book, it's their > *right*. A book is an object like any other : people can use it as > they want. Objects usually have one or two specific uses, but if > anyone wants to use them for anything else, that's their problem. You > might not agree, you might choose to keep away from them when they do > that, you might warn them, but you can't forbid them (unless you're > their mom :-) I'm in total agreement with you here, but certainly there is also room for those of us who disagree? ;-) On this list I see a lot of, for lack of a better word, angst being expended on topics like this, and a search for discord and disharmony within the lives of characters where (in my opinion--and it's just my opinion which doesn't mean that I'm forbidding anyone to stop discussing it) it does not exist. I have no problem with folks thinking and writing whatever they please. But authorial intent has got to count for something, especially in a closely-plotted and written series like the HP books, and I don't think JKR has expended a great deal of effort in writing subterranean emotional stories for all of her characters. JKR, in my opinion, is very careful with the picture she draws for her readers, and her language and style--her trope if you will--is not about deep hidden meanings and conflicts (apart from the clues, plot devices, and many other things which are at naturally home in a mystery/adventure story). As they say, your mileage may vary. And that's OK with me. ;-) Also, from a humane point of view, I also personally don't like to see people getting upset over issues like Hermione's perceived bad relationship with her parents, mainly because there have been some very sad and upsetting events thus far in the series, with more to come. jujube, who will now resume reading more digests ;-) From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 1 15:41:13 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 15:41:13 -0000 Subject: JKR says no, and she's no Dobby (was: Prince of Walpurgis ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103907 "Steve" wrote: [snip] > JKR said '...not Harry or Voldemort...', but in CoS, Dobby also > said,(paraphrased) '...not Voldemort...' when he meant Tom Riddle. > That sets a precedence in the book for regarding them as separate > entities. That doesn't guarantee that 'separate entities' is > correct, but it does set a precedent. JKR could be doing the same > thing again. Not a good precedent for us to follow. IMNSHO this was deliberately shown to have been a *mistake* on Dobby's part because it obscured the truth from Harry. IIRC what Dobby actually said was something like "not ... HE-WHO-MUST-NOT-BE-NAMED ..." whilst giving Harry a significant look which Harry totally failed to spot. This was in response to a direct question from Harry the precise phrasing of which fails me now but I expect someone out there has the book surgically attached to their keyboard :-) I think certain people will just have to give in gracefully and abandon their pet theory that--despite JKR's clearest indication to the contrary--Voldemort/Riddle is the HBP. JKR has said NO and that should mean no. HTH HAND -- Phil From ExSlytherin at aol.com Thu Jul 1 15:52:28 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 15:52:28 -0000 Subject: 24 hours again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103908 Kneasy wrote: You could go back even further. And I was asked a question I've never considered before: Who told Voldy that the Potters and Longbottoms were the hot favourites for starring roles in the upcoming Herod re-enactment? IIRC, DD says that he identified Harry and Neville as likely candidates from families *that were in the Order*. A nice distinction. Presumably he produced his short-list based on the "thrice defied" phrase (another blank spot in our knowledge - have they faced Voldy 3 times and survived? Then why not also at GH?) Mandy here: Like you imply, it seems unlikely that LV tried to kill both the Potters and the Longbottoms three times each and failed. It doesn't say much about LV strength and ability does it? The defiance must not be death, but the refusal to do something he commanded. Perhaps LV was laying down laws regarding inter-marring and having children with non-pure bloods? (That would fit with the Potters, but not the Longbottoms.) Just being in the Order could be considered a defiance. Particularly as Order members were being executed left, right and center, perhaps LV decreed the murders would stop if they all turned themselves over to him? Kneasy wrote: He's heard the Prophecy but tells no-one about it. He makes his deductions. Meanwhile the eavesdropper hears only the first part of the Prophecy (how much of it? We need to know!). It then takes *2 years* for Voldy to react. Why? If the eavesdropper is a Voldy supporter and passes the message on, that plus Peter (who according to Sirius worked with the baddies for 2 years before the GH debacle) leads one to think that he would have made his strike much sooner. Mandy here: There were no children at the time of the prophecy. They had yet to come. So LV somehow finds out that his downfall will be born in the 7th month (July) to those who have defied him 3 times. So we have to assume that LV begins to watch those who had or will have defied him 3 times up to and including July 1979 and 1980 and looking to see which ones get pregnant around October of 1978 and 1979. That's a lot of waiting and watching, it would be easier to wipe them all out. But then we have been told that the Order were being picked off one by one during those few years before GH. We also only have Sirius word that Peter was passing on info for 2 years and I wouldn't trust Sirius Black to know anything reliable. Sirius has to cover his own ass for the stupid mistake he made in suggesting Peter for the job he, himself, was too scared to do. He is going to believe anything that makes himself feel better about what he had done. Also the only place Sirius could have found out that tidbit about Peter spying for so long had to have been in Azkaban, from the mouths of the DE. Sirius would be naively stupid to believe what he hears in prison from the enemy. But then again, he was naively stupid. I wouldn't put it past Bella to say anything she can think of torture Sirius. Do we have that information about Peter from a more reliable source? Kneasy wrote: This could indicate that the eavesdropper *didn't* pass on the information immediately, but waited a looong time before doing so. Or that there was *another* leak much closer to the time of the actual attack. This leak was then picked up by DD's agent and passed back. Otherwise the protracted time delay followed by the sudden hurry-up to get the Potters under cover doesn't make much sense. This would sit very well with your theory of a fourth (or even fifth?) person being involved. It do get complicated, don't it? Mandy: Yes, but what fun! From ExSlytherin at aol.com Thu Jul 1 16:10:16 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 16:10:16 -0000 Subject: Marauder's Map: Selective Against Marauders? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103909 > Pandrea > Do we know that the Map can see through an animagi disguise? I have always thought that in rat form, Peter showed up on the map AS > Wormtail, therefore neither Harry nor the twins ever noticed anything funny. The time that Lupin noticed "Peter" on the Map, he had for some reason - perhaps to get away from Crookshanks - had to > temporarily transform back into human form, just for a minute - > unluckily for him, the very minute Lupin happened to be looking at > the Map. I'm not sure if this theory really holds, though, is there anything to contradict it? Mandy here: The Map shows the birth name of the person it's displaying not their nickname. Wormtail, Moony, Padfoot and Prong are simply nicknames. Used by the boys themselves. LV had addopted the name of Wormtail for Peter because he dispises Peter for living as a rat and refuses to refer to Peter by his full name. Whether Peter is in animagus form or not, he would still show up as Peter Pettigrew on the map. From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Thu Jul 1 16:16:34 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 16:16:34 -0000 Subject: JKR says no, and she's no Dobby (was: Prince of Walpurgis ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103910 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Phil Boswell" wrote: > I think certain people will just have to give in gracefully and > abandon their pet theory that--despite JKR's clearest indication to > the contrary--Voldemort/Riddle is the HBP. JKR has said NO and that > should mean no. > HTH HAND > -- > I've never found those discussions very profitable that seem to be predicated on getting the other side to say "uncle". Let's just agree to disagree, shall we? When Book 6 comes out, it will settle matters once and for all. Wanda From val_gal_05 at yahoo.ca Thu Jul 1 13:55:15 2004 From: val_gal_05 at yahoo.ca (val_gal_05) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 13:55:15 -0000 Subject: Marauder's Map: Selective Against Marauders? In-Reply-To: <002c01c45f6f$236ef7a0$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103911 > Sherry: > Actually, Val said that maybe only the marauders could see each > other, so Lupin could have seen Peter. Problem with that is that > Snape saw Lupin, and he certainly wasn't a marauder. Oh ok, then. Well I thought so anyway, I said I needed to reread the books *goes to do just that*. OT, I really hope JKR puts in more flashbacks of the MWPP era, IMHO they're more fun than what's happening now. Well I don't know about Snape seeing Remus, I'd really doubt that they would let him see them on it, so you're right, I guess I just read too much fanfiction. Well, the important thing is I tried. :P Thanks. Val From tzakis1225 at netzero.com Thu Jul 1 16:37:37 2004 From: tzakis1225 at netzero.com (demetra1225) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 16:37:37 -0000 Subject: Why did Snape teach Occlumency? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103912 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dnp1234" wrote: > Voldemort must think that Snape has Dumbledore's confindence if he is > a teacher. Snape could easily explain to Voldemort that he is > purposely making Harry fail with his lessons. Demetra: But that scenario would mean that Voldemort knows that Snape is an Occlumens. In my mind, the only way Snape can be spying is if Voldemort has no clue that Snape is an Occlumens. I think Sonja was asking why let Snape teach Harry occlumency because then Voldemort would find out that Snape is an Occlumens and has been lying to him. If Voldemort was able to perform Legilimency on Harry, I would ask the same thing. But the link between Harry and Voldemort is not one in which Voldemort "reads his mind". As far as we know through the link Harry has sensed Voldemort's emotions, Harry has seen Voldemort's activities in real time (the Snake attacking Arthur) and Voldemort has placed a vision in Harry's head. No evidence that Voldemort has performed Legilimency on Harry except for perhaps the one time in PS/SS when he surmised that "He lies." But they were face to face, this was not done through the scar link. I guess this brings me back to my question about the whole thing. Why was it so important for Harry to learn Occlumency, when what he needed to block was not Legilimency? From Amber_Falls at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 14:55:48 2004 From: Amber_Falls at yahoo.com (Amber_Falls) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 14:55:48 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle living inside Harry? (Re: BOOK 6 ANNOUNCEMENT...) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103913 vmonte responds: > Was Tom Harry's friend? What does DD's comment "in essence > divided" mean? Why does Harry look at the diary in Cos and have > the feeling that he wants to finish the story that was started? > Doesn't this sound like something someone would say if they were > given another chance to rewrite their life? > > If TR is inside Harry my guess would be that he is not like the > Tom Riddle of the past, future, or present... Amber: Your theory about TR being inside Harry is plausible. It reminded me of the Changeling Hypothesis on Mugglenet. You can find it in The North Tower. It's a long and very interesting read and it makes sense in a way. Sorry I don't have a link right now. It wouldn't surprise me if TR does re-appear in HBP. I just have no idea how JKR will pan this out. I guess she likes to keep us guessing ;) Amber ==== From baseball_07_05 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 16:29:42 2004 From: baseball_07_05 at yahoo.com (Andrew) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 16:29:42 -0000 Subject: Book 6 Title? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103914 I am very confused as to the title of book 6. Did JKR release the title, and I miss it. I have been living under a hole so to speak about HP news. Please fill me in, and if you happen to know the title, please tell me. Lost Hermit From pagan-queen at charter.net Thu Jul 1 15:18:22 2004 From: pagan-queen at charter.net (Cathy McQuillin) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:18:22 -0400 Subject: HBP In-Reply-To: <1088693332.57952.16627.m17@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <200407011501.LAA10557@smtp1.michonline.net> No: HPFGUIDX 103915 I'm new to this list, and I've been trying to keep up on the posts (gee, this list is freaking busy!). I've been reading the speculation about who the HBP could be, and thinking about what happened in PoA. JKR said that she wanted to include a lot of this material in book 3 but by the end it didn't fit. We did have several characters introduced in PoA, but everyone seems to be focusing on the humans. What about Crookshanks? He played a major role in PoA. I've thought for a long time there's more to him than what we've seen so far, and from what I understand, he's half something or another (can't think of it right now). I'm interested to find out what anyone else has to say on this theory. Cat From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Thu Jul 1 16:46:20 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 16:46:20 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103916 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > I don't think so anymore, although it is subject to correction, of > course. For now I am convinced that whoever practices Dark Magic > in "Potterverse" is evil, period) > > With that attitude in mind, I give Sirius major credit for breaking > away from them. > Kneasy: Being a bit unforgiving aren't you? By that standard Harry is "evil, period" for casting a Crucio! in the Ministry. > Kneasy: > > Whatever, his personality is set. At Hogwarts he's known to indulge > > in bullying and will without compunction put the lives of others at > > risk out of spite - with little evidence of regret or remorse > > afterwards. > > > Alla: > Just a quick question. Who are those "others"? I am afraid I can > remember only one name, whom Sirius bullied in Pensieve Scene. > > If you know any others, let me know, please. > Kneasy: Of course. Don't you think both Snape *and* James were at risk from Lupin in the tunnel? DD certainly thought so. I also consider it typical of Sirius that it is James that tries to save the situation that Sirius caused. Sirius does nothing, apparently. Quite willing for his friend to go into danger to pull Sirius's coals out of the fire. Creep or coward? You decide. > > Alla: > > We don't know whether Sirius was punished or not. We only know that > he was not expelled. It is a pure speculation that he would > definitely told Harry if he was punished. Maybe the punishment was so > embarrasing for him that he did not want to mention it to Harry. > > I understand that for person, whose initials are SS any punishment of > Sirius short by death would not have been enough, but who knows maybe > Dumbledore saw some mitigating circumstances in the Prank. (Could it > be? :)) > > Maybe dumbledore decided that... I don't know a year of detentions in > Forbidden Forest with Mr. Filch will be enough for Sirius. > Kneasy: This topic was discussed at length last year, if you remember. I haven't had time to go back to it, but the general consensus, backed by DD having told Snape never to mention the incident again, leans towards no punishment being handed out. There may be more definite evidence; I'll have to do a search. > Alla: > > This is the only moment, where I confess I am not quite clear about > something. No, I am not questioning Sirius' motives. I suspect it has > more to do with Rowling's not fully explaining the situation yet. > > Why, why why was he so sure that Voldemort will never come after > peter? Did he consider Voldie to be stupid? > Kneasy: It's my opinion that he wasn't thinking about Voldy, he was thinking of himself, how clever he was. Playing the brave friend, leading Voldy on a dance. Stupid. If, of course, things were as he says they were. There is no confirmation that James knew the Secret Keeper had changed. DD certainly didn't, he says so. And if anyone should have been informed, it was DD. So why didn't Sirius tell him? Being clever again, or covering his tracks? > Alla. > Two of your best friends were just killed. You learn that your other > friend just betrayed them to Voldie. > > Yes, shock is the most realistic reaction I would think of. > Kneasy: Perhaps. But see post 103903, no point in repeating myself. > Alla: > > Oh, could it be that Sirius as one of the brightest students in his > class, who managed to become animagus at fifteen or sixteen , indeed > escaped by himself. Kneasy: No. There is no evidence that he was particularly bright. By all accounts the Animagus spell doesn't require brains, just practice to get it right. If he was bright, it wouldn't have taken him 12 years to escape. No, he was helped. Probably by Fudge who 'just happened' to give Sirius the newspaper with the photo containing Scabbers and again 'just happened' to be at Azkaban the night Sirius got out. And as a result 'just happened' to let loose a load of Dementors who 'just happened' to be more interested in Harry than in Sirius. All a most regretable and unfortunate series of events, of course. That tale of Dementors being confused by animals just won't work. The whole point of being an Animagus is that you retain your human mind and intelligence. Since Dementors don't have eyes, they're not going to be confused by shape. They go for minds. The only question is, did Sirius cooperate or was he a catspaw? From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 16:51:14 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 16:51:14 -0000 Subject: Little King Regulus = the Prince? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103917 "clio44a" wrote: > Well, time to join the quest for the Half Blood Prince. > > I just had a brainwave. > > > A prince is a little king, right? > > > Little King = Regulus > > Regulus is the latin diminutive of rex, which means king. > > Now, we know that Regulus Black was killed by Voldemort or on his > orders (OotP, p. 104, Bloomsbury hardcover copy). Sirius thinks that > was because he tried to back out of the Death Eaters. We don't know > what really happened. Maybe Voldemort murdered his possible > successor for reasons yet unknown? > > > Regulus Black was a pureblood as far as we know, from a family who > thought themselves "practically royal". (magic paternity test, > anyone?) Who says the half blood prince must be a halfblood? > > I haven't any complex theories yet, but I thought this was > worth to throw into the ring. > Forgive me if you discussed this already and dismissed it, but my > quick search of the last messages brought nothing to the light. > > > Clio, > whose money in the race for the HBP is actually on Mark Evans, but > who thinks Regulus WILL come back to haunt us, HBP or not. Hey, I was thinking along the same lines. I didn't think Regulus, but rather, Sirius. Who says that the HBP has to be alive, and who says the HBP has to be a half-blood? Yes, Sirius thinks that Regulus was killed for trying to get out of the DEs. That's a good point. However, Sirius left his "practically royal" family because he disagreed with their pureblood obsession. He hung around with Remus the half-blood werewolf, was James' best friend (who married Lily), got into Gryffindor, was a member of the Order both in his generation and Harry's, fighting *against* LV and the pureblood fanatics... sort of a champion of half-bloods. Any thoughts? Susan ;-) From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 16:50:56 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 16:50:56 -0000 Subject: Little King Regulus = the Prince? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103918 "clio44a" wrote: > Well, time to join the quest for the Half Blood Prince. > > I just had a brainwave. > > > A prince is a little king, right? > > > Little King = Regulus > > Regulus is the latin diminutive of rex, which means king. > > Now, we know that Regulus Black was killed by Voldemort or on his > orders (OotP, p. 104, Bloomsbury hardcover copy). Sirius thinks that > was because he tried to back out of the Death Eaters. We don't know > what really happened. Maybe Voldemort murdered his possible > successor for reasons yet unknown? > > > Regulus Black was a pureblood as far as we know, from a family who > thought themselves "practically royal". (magic paternity test, > anyone?) Who says the half blood prince must be a halfblood? > > I haven't any complex theories yet, but I thought this was > worth to throw into the ring. > Forgive me if you discussed this already and dismissed it, but my > quick search of the last messages brought nothing to the light. > > > Clio, > whose money in the race for the HBP is actually on Mark Evans, but > who thinks Regulus WILL come back to haunt us, HBP or not. Hey, I was thinking along the same lines. I didn't think Regulus, but rather, Sirius. Who says that the HBP has to be alive, and who says the HBP has to be a half-blood? Yes, Sirius thinks that Regulus was killed for trying to get out of the DEs. That's a good point. However, Sirius left his "practically royal" family because he disagreed with their pureblood obsession. He hung around with Remus the half-blood werewolf, was James' best friend (who married Lily), got into Gryffindor, was a member of the Order both in his generation and Harry's, fighting *against* LV and the pureblood fanatics... sort of a champion of half-bloods. Any thoughts? Susan ;-) From teilani2002 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 16:57:45 2004 From: teilani2002 at yahoo.com (Susan) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 16:57:45 -0000 Subject: They have some detail terribly wrong... In-Reply-To: <20040630021016.32147.qmail@web20024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103919 > > "peter_jacobi.rm" wrote: > > > > But what about Mad Eye? Was there a hint I missed? > > I feel the > > > reader has the "right" to get some hint, however > > subtle it is. > > > After the great revelation the reader should be > > able to say: > > > "I should have known!" > > > > > The only clue I can think of is the flask. > > Crouch/Moody was always > > drinking out of his own silver flask that he carried > > around. > > Also, there was "Moody's" comment about "that's when I > open my trunk" and Snape talking about the missing > boomslang skin (Moody took it recently, though > Hermione did steal some two years prior) and that > "Moody" didn't use his lie-detecting items, but passed > off the reason as kids lying about homework. > > > Rebecca > > ===== > http://wychlaran.tripod.com I feel like I should have known when HP sees Barty Crouch on the Marauders' Map, then runs into Moody. Crouch is so sick that he can't even go into work, and has "Weatherby" doing all his errands for him, but yet he's well enough to go running around Hogwarts at night? I'm not saying I should have known it was Barty Jr, but I should have known something was amiss. I took it at face value that is really *was* Barty Crouch! Susan:-) From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 1 16:58:20 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 16:58:20 -0000 Subject: Is Mark Evans the half blood prince? In-Reply-To: <20040701080726.4818.qmail@web53402.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103920 Miss Melanie wrote: [snip] > How common is the name Evans in Britian anyway? Depends upon which part of Britain you mean. It's quite common across the whole of the country, but particularly in Wales, where ISTR it is second only in popularity to "Jones". Which apropos of nothing at all is impossible to spell in Welsh because there is no letter "J" in Welsh. Which is interesting. Also "Evans" is more properly spelt "Efans" in Welsh because they pronounce the letter "F" like a "V". There is no letter "V" in Welsh. Which is also interesting. Isn't lingustics fun? HTH HAND -- Phil From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Thu Jul 1 15:24:58 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 1 Jul 2004 15:24:58 -0000 Subject: Anagrams and HBP Message-ID: <20040701152458.7070.qmail@webmail8.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103921 Hi all, This is my first post on the list. So I might post some repetitions. About anagram game: Luke wrote: > "Ron B W is muggle Blood" > Well, the W obviously stands for Weasley, and mabye the B is his > middle name. ;) But I doubt this has any significance, because why > would Alice know Ron is a muggle blood, and why would she try to > tell Neville when Ron was feet from here. Ron's middle name according to JKR is "Bilius" (given in JK Rowling World Book Day Festival Transcript 4 March 2004). I can't say anything about the significance. About HBP: According to JKR, it was the title of 2nd book, so it must refer to somebody who has got some important role in Book2. Except Harry Potter, what I think is: 1. Tom Riddle : I think many posts are there on this topic. I can't add any more things. 2. Hagrid : Enough posts on this also. 3. Justin Finch Fletchly : He had some part to play in that book, and he keeps popping up there. But I think he is muggleborn (not sure as I don't have the book with me right now). 4. Salazar Slytherin : Shocking??? I know he places so much importance on "Pureblood", but are we sure he is Pureblood? after all, LV puts so much importance on the same issue, but he is also a halfblood. Trevor has no connection to story there. So does Godric, he is mentioned only w.r.t. sword (this can be a point in his favour and against him also). If we consider anagrams, Ron also comes into picture now. :) Amey From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jul 1 17:04:04 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 17:04:04 -0000 Subject: Why did Snape teach Occlumency?/Snapes Trustworthiness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103922 Sonja wrote: > > My understanding is: Dumbledore didn't want to teach Harry > Occlumency b/c he didn't want LV to see how close he was to Harry. > So he had to find someone else. Snape was excellent, so he was > chosen to teach Harry. BUT, my problem is, isn't it just as > dangerous for LV to see Snape close to Harry? Wouldn't LV put > pressure on Snape to intefere with Harry. Wouldn't LV question > Snape's loyalty if he saw Snape helping Harry? snip Potioncat: Funny how posts grow a life of their own. I've been meaning to look this one up and answer it, since I was hurried away when I first read it. And in the meantime I've been answering the second part of it. I agree and I've written posts on it as well, but not too many others have agreed with me. But it seems to me that LV will be able to get a new look at Snape through LV's contact with Harry. This may be one reason Snape continues with the bad treatment in class and stays distant during the sessions. But I don't know if that is the way JKR sees it. Was the point that DD-LV, DD-HP and HP-LV have such a complicated history that there is a danger in those relationships which isn't present with Snape? But at any rate, I took it as another act Snape took on that included "great personal risk." And by the way, with people coming and going, there is almost always someone around who hasn't heard of an idea or someone who has but is glad to toss it around again! Potioncat From enderbean01 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 15:24:19 2004 From: enderbean01 at yahoo.com (Miyuki Takagi) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 08:24:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Anagram game was Re: Alice Longbottom In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040701152419.83699.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103923 Luke wrote: > I played around with the letters as well, and I got > > "Ron B W is muggle Blood" > > Well, the W obviously stands for Weasley, and mabye the B is his > middle name. I think I read somewhere (on some interview or something) that Ron's middle name started with a 'B.' It was some horrible latin name that I can't remember. So I suppose it *could* be 'RON B W IS MUGGLE BLOOD.' enderbean From inkling108 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 16:56:31 2004 From: inkling108 at yahoo.com (inkling108) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 16:56:31 -0000 Subject: The word "prince" in OotP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103924 For whatever it may be worth, the only instance of the word "prince" I can think of in the series comes in OotP, p. 837, US version: "Five years ago then," Dumbledore continued..."You arrived at Hogwarts, neither as happy or well nourished as I would have liked, perhaps, but alive and healthy. You were not a pampered little prince, but as normal a boy as I could have hoped under the circumstances..." Of course, "prince" may just be a figure of speech in this instance, but it does occur in a very crucial discusssion about Harry's past. Possibly the choice of words was more than just coincidence? We know that Harry is not the HBP, but maybe -- just maybe -- this supports the theory that James came from some kind of royalty? Anyway just thought I'd throw it into the pot. Jamie P.S. Please forgive me if this has already been mentioned somewhere, I am having a hard time keeping up with the flood of posts. From fienxjox at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 15:37:31 2004 From: fienxjox at yahoo.com (fienxjox) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 15:37:31 -0000 Subject: Marauder's Map: Selective Against Marauders? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103925 Pandrea wrote: > Do we know that the Map can see through an animagi disguise? I > have always thought that in rat form, Peter showed up on the map > AS Wormtail, therefore neither Harry nor the twins ever noticed > anything funny. The time that Lupin noticed "Peter" on the Map, > he had for some reason - perhaps to get away from Crookshanks - > had to temporarily transform back into human form, just for a > minute - unluckily for him, the very minute Lupin happened to be > looking at the Map. I'm not sure if this theory really holds, > though, is there anything to contradict it? In PoA (sorry can't give pgs) Lupin says he was studying the map when he saw "three people going under the tree" (again sorry no exact quotes). He says there was Ron, Sirius and Peter. We know that Sirius and Peter were in their animal form and only Ron was normal shaped. This would suggest that the map indeed sees through animagi. We have multiple points in the book where it sees animals (or at least Mrs Norris) and through polyjuice potion (moody!crouch). Fx From mnaperrone at aol.com Thu Jul 1 17:14:50 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 17:14:50 -0000 Subject: Prince of Walpurgis - Tales from the Dark Side. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103926 > Wanda wrote: > > This hearkens back to the "Simplify! Simplify!" thread of a week > ago > > or so. As someone pointed out, the readers are dazzlingly creative > > in their theories, but the books themselves have never turned out > to > > be quite so elaborate. There are a few twists and tricks in each, > > but they are still reasonably plain adventures, not elaborate > > anagrams which mean the exact opposite of what they seem to mean. Pandrea: > That's true, but I think that Godric Gryffindor is an equally simple > solution to the Prince question. Credibility-straining suggestions > like Dean, Seamus, Flitwick etc aren't the only other possibility. > > I do agree we definitely need to know more about Tom Riddle and, > specifically, why he was so keen to conquer death. Ally: I suppose that if its not Tom Riddle, Godric Gryffindor would be a plausible alternative. But from a narrative perspective, if it is Godric Gryffindor, what would the significance be? What would a story focusing largely on him do for the books? One way this would make sense is if Harry is somehow related to GG - "heir" of Gryffindor and all - but I HATE this theory, largely b/c JKR seems to have repudiated the idea that heritage matters in determining a person's courage or worth. To have her hero turn out to be a direct lineal descendant of GG would go against that whole theme (and not to mention absolutely make me hurl). But I suppose there are other ways that Harry learning about GG could be significant - he could learn from GG's history something that will be important to him defeating Voldie, I suppose. But it still seems most logical to me that it will be Riddle. I could be wrong, about that, but it would fit perfectly for her to go into Riddle at this point in the books and then have Harry find out about himself in Book 7. From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 17:17:03 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 17:17:03 -0000 Subject: Analyzing Plot Twists: Simplify, Simplify! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103928 Jekatiska comments: Thank you, Tara, I couldn't agree more. Although it's fun to come up with weird, elaborate plot lines sometimes, they are highly unlikely to end up in the books, and so we should stick to the _likely_ stories when trying to predict what's going to happen. The dead are and will stay dead. As for time travel, as we have seen, there is not much one can do in the past. Hermione said in the chapter where they used the time-turner with Harry: "We are breaking one of the most important wizarding laws. No one is supposed to change time." (I don't have my book here so I can't check the exact wording or the page) I think this states it quite plainly: there's nothing we can do about what's gone. And anyway, I don't think it would be possible to use a time-turner to travel back many years. Would the time-traveller have to live all that time twice? vmonte responds: Sorry, but I just want to point out again that time-travel will be back, period. And DD has time-travelled himself. Although I don't believe that JKR is going to use time travel to save Harry's parents, I do think that TT is going to turn up again. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it! vivian Book 7 ends with: the scar. I bet it's about DD's scar. From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jul 1 17:23:52 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 17:23:52 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103930 > > Alla: > >> > We don't know whether Sirius was punished or not. We only know that he was not expelled. snip > Kneasy: > This topic was discussed at length last year, if you remember. I haven't > had time to go back to it, but the general consensus, backed by DD > having told Snape never to mention the incident again, leans towards no > punishment being handed out. There may be more definite evidence; > I'll have to do a search. > Potioncat:(eyes staring blankly) Bring on the cannon...ern canon. I wasn't around a year ago. But as far as the books themselves go, I don't know that anything is said about punishmennt. Snape doesn't say "he tried to kill me and you never even punished him." Any idea of what might have happened, would have to stay "might have." And it might have been that either DD considered it to have been a not so well thought out prank and gave little or no punishment. Or he considered it to have been a very dangerous trick that was due punishment regardless of whether harm was intended. Obviously he couldn't make it a public punishment because he wouldn't want Lupin's state to go public. So whatever did happen, had to have a cover story. But my point is, we don't know what Black really thinks about it...or even Lupin for that matter. We do know that Snape thinks murder was the intent. DD doesn't seem to agree, but doesn't seem to find Snape at fault for thinking it. DD trusts both men, whatever he thought about the boys they were. Potioncat who wonders, did I just defend Black and Snape in the same post? From mnaperrone at aol.com Thu Jul 1 17:24:21 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 17:24:21 -0000 Subject: JKR says no, and she's no Dobby (was: Prince of Walpurgis ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103931 Phil: > I think certain people will just have to give in gracefully and > abandon their pet theory that--despite JKR's clearest indication to > the contrary--Voldemort/Riddle is the HBP. JKR has said NO and that > should mean no. > HTH HAND Ally: Phil, she did not say that it wasn't Riddle, she said it wasn't Voldemort. How do you KNOW there isn't a difference? We don't know exactly what the circumstances were for Riddle becoming Voldemort. In a sense, Riddle transformed himself into something different. Borrowing on Steve's excellent analogy, like a caterpillar becoming a butterfly. They are the same but different. It's a metamorphasis. JKR - being the tricky one she is - could very well be looking at and planning to show Riddle in the same way - one person who transformed himself into another. In that sense, she can say its not Voldemort and it can turn out to be Riddle, and it wouldn't be inaccurate. From saitaina at comcast.net Thu Jul 1 16:37:41 2004 From: saitaina at comcast.net (Saitaina) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 12:37:41 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Marauder's Map: Selective Against Marauders? References: Message-ID: <003201c45f89$bbe6a630$6501a8c0@CPQ15165210131> No: HPFGUIDX 103932 Mandy wrote: Actually, I think Voldemort calls Peter, Wormtail because it hurts Peter. It reminds him of who he once was, before he betrayed James and Lily and thus destroyed everyone who cared about him for 7+ years. Once Voldemort discovered how much the name hurt Peter after the events of Godric's Hollow, I'm sure he used it quite frequently, just to watch it get under Peter's skin, though the way he says it also indicates he used it before, which would make sense if he was hiding Peter as a spy. Only those who went to school, and paid attention would know who "Wormtail" was, but calling someone Pettigrew or Peter when referring to James and Lily and the idea of going after them...it's rather easy to figure out who you're talking about. Saitaina R. Moricia *** James was looking at Harry with a cross between confusion, humor and 'someone put a chicken on your head and it's doing a salsa dance'. http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From fienxjox at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 17:38:49 2004 From: fienxjox at yahoo.com (fienxjox) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 17:38:49 -0000 Subject: The word "prince" in OotP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103933 Jamie wrote: > For whatever it may be worth, the only instance of the word > "prince" I can think of in the series comes in OotP, p. 837, US > version: > > "Five years ago then," Dumbledore continued..."You arrived at > Hogwarts, neither as happy or well nourished as I would have > liked, perhaps, but alive and healthy. You were not a pampered > little prince, but as normal a boy as I could have hoped under the > circumstances..." Interestingly enough, I would think this idea would strengthen the case for Dudley being the HBP since he is a "pampered little prince". Fx From enderbean01 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 15:31:26 2004 From: enderbean01 at yahoo.com (Miyuki Takagi) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 08:31:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Harry's potions O.W.L - Outstanding-NOT. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040701153126.76604.qmail@web51606.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103934 smartone564 wrote: > Well, from what I have read of potions, unless you follow the > instuctions to the letter, your potion is off (even just a half > turn too far clockwise). Therefore, wouldn't the scorers need > only be concerned with the final work, because it magnifies > every mistake? I kinda got the impression from OOTP that all the students were fairly advanced in potions. I know that Umbridge isn't exactly the best thing to go on, but didn't she say that when she was interrogating Snape in his class? It could be that almost all the kids get to go on to advanced potions. enderbean From mauranen at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 13:39:45 2004 From: mauranen at yahoo.com (jekatiska) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 13:39:45 -0000 Subject: Harry & his potions O.W.L In-Reply-To: <20040628075332.89212.qmail@web53106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103935 Asha wrote: During my GCSEs and my A levels, none of my subject teachers actually invigilated the exam room. I remember asking about it and one of them telling me that it's a common enough practice that teachers don't invigilate their subjects in case they gave a student an extra push in the right direction. Jekatiska: Or the wrong direction in Harry's and Neville's cases... ;) From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Thu Jul 1 17:55:42 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 12:55:42 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The word "prince" in OotP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103936 Interestingly enough, I would think this idea would strengthen the case for Dudley being the HBP since he is a "pampered little prince". Fx I agree that would be a good candidate, but I have to step in and say that makes a really good vote in for Draco Malfoy as well....especially the way I can hear the dislike the way DD says, "pampered little prince" Gina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jul 1 17:57:42 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 17:57:42 -0000 Subject: Harry's potions O.W.L - Outstanding-NOT. In-Reply-To: <20040701153126.76604.qmail@web51606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103937 Emderbean: > I kinda got the impression from OOTP that all the students were fairly > advanced in potions. I know that Umbridge isn't exactly the best thing > to go on, but didn't she say that when she was interrogating Snape in > his class? It could be that almost all the kids get to go on to advanced potions. > Potioncat: Another possibility, which I recall from an earlier discussion along this line, is that JKR may be making her own comment about education policies in general. We'll have to see how the OWLs pan out to see if she is making some sort of statement. From fienxjox at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 17:53:05 2004 From: fienxjox at yahoo.com (fienxjox) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 17:53:05 -0000 Subject: Harry's potions O.W.L - Outstanding-NOT. In-Reply-To: <20040701153126.76604.qmail@web51606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103938 enderbean wrote: > I kinda got the impression from OOTP that all the students were > fairly advanced in potions. I know that Umbridge isn't exactly > the best thing to go on, but didn't she say that when she was > interrogating Snape in his class? It could be that almost all > the kids get to go on to advanced potions. Agreeing with your comment on Umbridge, I believe that her statement was more a reflection on the making of "strengthening solution" than the actual difficulty of the potion. Fx From tekayjaye at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 18:04:45 2004 From: tekayjaye at yahoo.com (Tekay Jaye) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:04:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The word "prince" in OotP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040701180445.54681.qmail@web90010.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103939 Fx: > Interestingly enough, I would think this idea would strengthen the > case for Dudley being the HBP since he is a "pampered little prince". Gina: > I agree that would be a good candidate, but I have to step in and say > that makes a really good vote in for Draco Malfoy as well....especially > the way I can hear the dislike the way DD says, "pampered little prince" tekay now: Draco is a "pampered little prince" and played a role in CoS, but he's full-blood, so I would disqualify him there. Plus I don't think Harry really sees him as a threat, based on their conversation at the end of OotP. This speculation is a lot of fun, but I would love to have the book and know for sure! tekay From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 18:13:22 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 18:13:22 -0000 Subject: Hermione's parents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103940 Hi Jujube, I, Del, wrote . > > As you said four times in this paragraph, that's what YOU *think*. > > Other people think otherwise. And nobody can speak for JKR. Jujube answered : > First, let me say that I am sorry if my post and my use of "I think" > has upset you. Del replies : You're kidding ! I *love* the fact that you keep saying "I think". I was just pointing to the fact that the whole paragraph reflected only your opinion, not facts, as you yourself must have been aware since you'd used "I think" so often. I'm sorry I was so unclear. And I'm afraid I'm not much clearer this time either, huh :-) ? I, Del, wrote : > > So saying that some things aren't really there is saying that we > > shouldn't apply our imagination and emotions to the Potterverse. > > What's the point of reading the books then ? Jujube answered : > Please know I'm not saying anything of the sort. Indeed, if I felt > that way, why would I join a mailing list devoted to discussing the > books? ;-) I have no problem with anyone "filling in the holes." > However, at the same time, I spend a good part of my time reading > documents and trying to figure out what happened, and having to fill > in holes within a set of relatively strict parameters.. Del replies : Heh, heh, the catch is that, as far as the Potterverse is concerned, each reader can define their own parameters. Some might keep strictly to what is written in the books, others might invent the rest of the whole WW in each country of the world, complete with names and dates, and most of us will be somewhere in between (hey, some even deny the canon, preferring to ignore some facts - Sirius's death - or to modify a character's personality, for example). Of course, when our parameters come clashing with someone else's parameters, then we're stuck, especially since JKR never put a limit on what the reasonable parameters were. Jujube wrote : > To some extent, the book is told from Harry's point of view. > However, there are 2, in my opinion, important qualifications to > that POV. 1. The book is not told from Harry's eyes, or in the > first person, and 2., the narrator (whether it's JKR or someone > else is an issue I'll not bring up here) does show us scenes which > take place apart from Harry, and to which Harry is not an > eyewitness. Del replies : In fact, I believe that the story *is* told from Harry's eyes. It's not Harry who tells the story, agreed, but the narrator only describes what Harry sees. When something is hidden from Harry, we don't get to see it. If Harry is concentrating on one person and missing what another person is doing completely, then we don't get to see it either. I don't believe that a story has to be told in the first person to be told from someone's eyes. And as for those scenes that we get to see and Harry doesn't, they are extremely rare. There's the first chapter of SS/PS, and... er... well that's pretty much it, if I'm not mistaken. Even the first chapter of GoF is actually seen by Harry, in a dream. I, Del, wrote : > > If people want to dwell on other aspects of the book, it's their > > *right*. A book is an object like any other : people can use it as > > they want. Objects usually have one or two specific uses, but if > > anyone wants to use them for anything else, that's their problem. > > You might not agree, you might choose to keep away from them when > > they do that, you might warn them, but you can't forbid them > > (unless you're their mom :-) Jujube answered : > I'm in total agreement with you here, but certainly there is also > room for those of us who disagree? ;-) Del replies : Technically, yes ;-) But not on this list I'm afraid. The rule is : if you have a canon piece to back your point, and it doesn't contradict the rest of the canon, then you're entitled to discuss it. So nobody can forbid anybody to play with bits of canon, even if they don't like it. Jujube wrote : > On this list I see a lot of, for lack of a better word, angst being > expended on topics like this, and a search for discord and > disharmony within the lives of characters where (in my opinion--and > it's just my opinion which doesn't mean that I'm forbidding anyone > to stop discussing it) it does not exist. Del replies : Well actually, it's all JKR's fault :-) It's because we have way too much time on our hands, waiting desperately for Book 6, that we go looking for problems where there might not be any. But what else can we do ;-) ? Jujube wrote : > Also, from a humane point of view, I also personally don't like to > see people getting upset over issues like Hermione's perceived bad > relationship with her parents, mainly because there have been some > very sad and upsetting events thus far in the series, with more to > come. Del replies : I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean exactly. Could you try again please, it seems interesting ? Del From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 18:24:30 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 18:24:30 -0000 Subject: JKR says no, and she's no Dobby (was: Prince of Walpurgis ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103941 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Phil Boswell" wrote: > "Steve" wrote: > [snip] > > JKR said '...not Harry or Voldemort...', but in CoS, Dobby also > > said,(paraphrased) '...not Voldemort...' when he meant Tom Riddle. > > That sets a precedence in the book for regarding them as separate > > entities. That doesn't guarantee that 'separate entities' is > > correct, but it does set a precedent. JKR could be doing the same > > thing again. > Phils responds: > > Not a good precedent for us to follow. IMNSHO this was deliberately > shown to have been a *mistake* on Dobby's part because it obscured > the truth from Harry. > Asian_lovr2: I would never go so far as to say I am right, unless the next book comes out and I AM right - Whoo Hoo! And equally so you are welcome to your opinion, and you are welcome to refute my opinion with your own. I've always said the conversations amoung people who all agree are dead boring. That said, I must take exception to the idea of a " ...'mistake' on Dobby's part...". How is it a mistake? Later in the book when everything is wrapping up, Harry asks Dobby about his earlier statement, and Dobby said it was a clue, while Voldemort could not be named, Tom Riddle could. Clearly Dobby is making a distinction between 'he who can not be named' and 'he who can be named', a distinction between Voldemort and Tom Riddle. Indeed Chamber of Secret was not about Voldemort, it was very clearly about Tom Riddle. So again, I say a clear precedent was set. I will, however, acknowledge that we can't completely separate the two; they are intimately tied together. Just as a catterpillar is not a butterfly and a egg is not a chicken, we can't erase the fact that they are connected. Back to your point, Dobby made no mistake, by saying 'not Voldemort (he who must not be named)', he was trying to drop a clue about Tom Riddle without in the process betraying the Malfoy's confidence. The only error was the Harry simply didn't pick up on the clue. Side Note: I believe in my original post I used the word 'precedence' which means priority, when I obviously meant 'precedent'. > Phil Continues: > > I think certain people will just have to give in gracefully and > abandon their pet theory that--despite JKR's clearest indication to > the contrary--Voldemort/Riddle is the HBP. JKR has said NO and that > should mean no. > HTH HAND > -- > Phil Asain_lovr2: Give up! NEVER! ...or a least not until the next wild idea strikes me. Point of order, no one is saying that Voldemort/Riddle is the Half Blood Prince, we are saying Tom Riddle is. The point is, given the fact that we are running out of books, it's time to start wrapping things up. It's time to resolve Tom Riddle's backstory, it's time to resolve the night of Godric's Hollow, it's time to expand the story for the purpose of wrapping things up, not wasting countless pages on new Lockhart/Umbridge-type characters, or wasting it on secondary character who have no potential to resolve the overal story. As I have said countless times (er... uncounted times?) before, we have lost the luxury of time. We have TWO Books left and huge amounts of existing story that needs telling, with Snape as DADA teacher and Tom Riddle as the Half Blood Prince, we open the door for a great deal of important story to be told. Without that, or with new characters, we are bogged down with 'cannon fodder' characters and wasted pages. Recite this mantra,... "We are running out of time." "We are running out of time." "We are running out of time." Just one man's opinon. Steve/asian_lovr From tigerfan41 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 18:39:28 2004 From: tigerfan41 at yahoo.com (Darrell Harris) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:39:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 4828 In-Reply-To: <1088701212.8422.1136.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040701183928.62116.qmail@web52507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103942 I'm new to this list, and I've been trying to keep up on the posts (gee, this list is freaking busy!). I've been reading the speculation about who the HBP could be, and thinking about what happened in PoA. JKR said that she wanted to include a lot of this material in book 3 but by the end it didn't fit. We did have several characters introduced in PoA, but everyone seems to be focusing on the humans. What about Crookshanks? He played a major role in PoA. I've thought for a long time there's more to him than what we've seen so far, and from what I understand, he's half something or another (can't think of it right now). I'm interested to find out what anyone else has to say on this theory. Cat The HBP was first going to be used in COS not POA so IMHO I think that lets Crookshanks out. But I do love the half-cat/half-kneasel thing. I think Mrs. Norris may also have kneasel in her if she isn't full kneasel. If you think about it the gang has never had a run in with her unless they were up to something shifty. Even in OOP when Harry is on the way to the Owlery and meets her as much as he protests he is doing nothing wrong. He was after all sending a letter to Sirius a supposed murderer. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Thu Jul 1 19:07:25 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 19:07:25 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103943 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat2001" wrote: > Kneasy: > > It's to be expected many of the softer-hearted fans are suckers for > the > > 'damaged hero' figure in fiction. Handsome, anguished, just a touch > > dangerous - oooh! Personal fantasies go into overdrive and denial > > sets in - "He can't be bad - I like him!" > > > > Oh yes he can. And he probably is. > > Marianne: > > Except for the "handsome" part, the above paragraph would cover a lot > of the Snape fans, too! He's dangerous, he's mysterious, he billows, > he's vampirish, he's damaged...Need I go on? > Too true. But most of them are seeing Alan Rickman, not the grotty old Sevvy that JKR envisaged. Mind you, even so he may cause a maiden's heart to skip a beat, that's why I wrote of the failed affair between him and Lily. Broken hearted, she was - spurned by S. Snape, dedicated to his studies. (see post 77800). Kneasy From leperockon at aol.com Thu Jul 1 19:14:14 2004 From: leperockon at aol.com (taylorlynzie) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 19:14:14 -0000 Subject: HBP?? In-Reply-To: <200407011501.LAA10557@smtp1.michonline.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103944 Lately I haven't been able to keep up with HP for Grownups and I am so confused as to what the whole HBP is. Naturally it means: Half blood Prince but where is this mentioned in the books because I have read them all numerous times and I have no idea what is going on. ...tay <33 From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 19:20:35 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 19:20:35 -0000 Subject: The Opening Chapter of Book 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103945 Eustace_Scrubb: I think JKR said the person who finds he/she can do magic late in life will do so under "desperate circumstances." (sorry don't have the exact citation but I'm certain she used a phrase close to this) While Dudley may feel that being threatened by Harry fits that phrase, I doubt that JKR would have termed it so--unless Harry has truly lost it and is really going to try an Unforgiveable on his cousin, which I can't see happening. I also favor either Petunia or Dudley as the late-blooming witch/wizard, but I suspect the talent will appear as a result of an attack by Death Eaters--who will not be expecting any magical defense. (I doubt that spontaneous magic will do much good against LV himself or Dementors, but given that many of the DEs seem to be a brick shy of a load I think a late-blooming Dursley stands a chance of thwarting them.) vmonte responds: I favor Petunia as the late blooming witch. I also think she will take a DE (or DEs)unawares. From my post: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/100964 Dudley relives a lost memory from his childhood through the Dementor attack. I think that the Dementor that attacked Dudley made him remember something he saw as a baby. >From OOTP (Page 30, U.S. version): "All dark," Dudley said hoarsely, shuddering. "Everything dark. And then I heard....things. Inside m-my head..." Petunia then responds in a way that makes it seem that she is worried that her son may be losing his mind: "What sort of things did you hear, popkin?" breathed aunt Petunia, very white-faced with tears in her eyes. But maybe Petunia was worried that Dudley might have remembered something that happened in the past. Something he should not have seen. "But Dudley seemed in capable of saying. He shuddered again and shook his large blond head, and despite the sense of numb dread that had settled on Harry since the arrival of the first owl, he felt a certain curiosity. Dementors caused a person to relive the worst moments of their life...What would spoiled, pampered, bullying Dudley have been forced to hear?" Petunia may have been threatened by Voldemort. She probably knows him up close and personal, and not by listening in on her sister's conversations. Voldemort may have gotten to Petunia (when he was searching for the Potter's) before he reached word from wormtail. He may have threatened Petunia or her son with a dementor. In fact Dudley's worst memory may be that he previously had an encounter with a dementor as a baby! (I don't think that Dudley's worst fear was getting a pigtail.) Dudley may realize the fear he caused to others while he was a bully and may give Harry important information from his vision. (Rowling has said that she feels sorry for Dudley because his parents actions towards him amounts to child abuse and that they have not prepared him for the real world.) Rowling has stated that someone will gain magical powers late in life and that it is very rare in the wizard world. Petunia and her family may be put in another life and death situation and Petunia's magic may emerge. She may end up killing someone important to the death eaters because she takes them unawares. From baseball_07_05 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 19:18:28 2004 From: baseball_07_05 at yahoo.com (Andrew) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 19:18:28 -0000 Subject: HBP?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103946 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "taylorlynzie" wrote: > Lately I haven't been able to keep up with HP for Grownups and I am > so confused as to what the whole HBP is. Naturally it means: Half > blood Prince but where is this mentioned in the books because I have > read them all numerous times and I have no idea what is going on. > > ...tay <33 I think that it might be the title to the 6th book, but I am not sure. No one has answered my post yet. And I also have discovered from reading these confusing posts, that Half Blood Prince or some such was the original title for the chamber of secrets. Andrew...still confused From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Thu Jul 1 19:25:29 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 14:25:29 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HBP?? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103947 where is this mentioned in the books because I have > read them all numerous times and I have no idea what is going on. > > ...tay <33 I think that it might be the title to the 6th book, Andrew...still confused Gina: Hey, I'm fairly new but have been reading the posts. JKR updated her website www.jkrowling.com and if you go through the portkey to the door and open it there are bricks. When you pick the correct order you go into a room where she has released the title of book 6 which is HP and the HBP. Gina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From leperockon at aol.com Thu Jul 1 19:31:40 2004 From: leperockon at aol.com (taylorlynzie) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 19:31:40 -0000 Subject: HBP?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103948 Aww why thank you... I had been very confused. From baseball_07_05 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 19:35:59 2004 From: baseball_07_05 at yahoo.com (Andrew) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 19:35:59 -0000 Subject: HBP?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103949 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "taylorlynzie" wrote: > Aww why thank you... I had been very confused. I just went and watched the diagon alley part of the ss, and it was of no help. Is there some simple thing that I'm missing, if no one wants to spill the beans on how to open the door. I do not have any books with me, otherwise I'd check them. Andrew From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Thu Jul 1 19:41:01 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 14:41:01 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HBP?? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103950 * Is there some simple thing that I'm missing, if no one wants to spill the beans on how to open the door. Andrew Label the bricks 1-5 top to bottom and it is (I lost my paper so this is a guess) 3, 4, 2, 5, 1 Gina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From alina at distantplace.net Thu Jul 1 19:41:27 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 15:41:27 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Half Bloods! References: Message-ID: <00f101c45fa3$66d5c490$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 103951 > Fleur : first of, she's a female, so she couldn't be a prince. And > second she's a quarter Veela, not half, but that might not mean much > to the purebloods. Oh and third, it's Fleur *Delacour* (of the court), > not "de la coeur" which doesn't make sense gramatically. > Del I wouldn't exclude females because the word prince is male, we don't know what JKR is up to. If anyone has read Patricia Wrede's Dragon series they'll remember that the dragons had a King regardless of whether the King was male or female. JKR might very well decide to do something similar, make Prince a gender-neutral title. I'm not saying she will, just that she might. Alina. From leperockon at aol.com Thu Jul 1 19:42:03 2004 From: leperockon at aol.com (taylorlynzie) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 19:42:03 -0000 Subject: What is a Half-Blood Prince? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103952 Now that I am finally caught up again in the world of Harry Potter and now know all about the Half-Blood Prince I am curious as to what a Half-Blood Prince actually is. Of course I assume it has something to do with the Founding Fathers and Mothers of Hogwarts... but what exactly? A part of me is lead to believe that even though Harry (or Voldemort) isn't the HBP prehaps Godric Gryffindor was. This would make sense in the fact that Godric accepted young wizards and witches into his house as long as they showed courage and bravery... perhaps this meant accepting many Half- Bloods because in those days being half-blood probably wasn't nearly as socially acceptable as it is in modern wizard times. Also... whats to say that Godric himself was a half-blood. This could make sense... obviously we have found out that magical lineage has no effect whatsoever on the ability of the wizard (look at Hermione a muggle- born with amazing talent and Neville... a pure-blood who needs working with) so who's to say that Godric Gryffindor... prehaps one of the most powerful wizards of the age wasn't a half-blood. I think he could be. However I don't want to discuss so much who is the HBP because we can only speculate until the release of book 6 but what is a HBP? Is it a royal geneaology or is it merely an honour? Is there anything more known about what a HBP is aside from a prince that is half-blood?! ...tay <33 From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Thu Jul 1 19:44:47 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 14:44:47 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Half Bloods! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103953 * Fleur : first of, she's a female, so she couldn't be a prince. > Del I have been wondering about Viktor Krum. Why bring him in unless we will hear from him again? * Gina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 19:51:34 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 19:51:34 -0000 Subject: The Opening Chapter of Book 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103954 vmonte wrote: > Rowling has stated that someone will gain magical powers late in life > and that it is very rare in the wizard world. Petunia and her family > may be put in another life and death situation and Petunia's magic > may emerge. She may end up killing someone important to the death > eaters because she takes them unawares. Del's heart leaps with joy at the thought : LU-CIUS !! LU-CIUS !! Ooooh, sweeeet joy, can you imagine, Lucius being killed by a Muggle-born almost-Squib ?! Ooooh, it's most probably not going to happen, but it feels SOOOOOOOOOO GOOD !! Thanks so much Vivian ! Del From Lynx412 at AOL.com Thu Jul 1 19:51:51 2004 From: Lynx412 at AOL.com (Lynx412 at AOL.com) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 15:51:51 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dean Thomas, HBP...? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103955 In a message dated 7/1/2004 1:44:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, enigma_only at hotmail.com writes: > Has anyone put forward that Dean Thomas could be the half blood > prince? We found out via JKR's web-page that his real father was a > wizard who was killed by Voldemort, but that Dean himself was raised > by his muggle mum and step-dad. I've commented on that...and I had an additional thought. By the end of OotP, Dean is dating Ginevra [Ginny's birth name], sister of Ron Weasley, who, after all, is our King. ;-) The Other Cheryl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From leperockon at aol.com Thu Jul 1 19:53:45 2004 From: leperockon at aol.com (taylorlynzie) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 19:53:45 -0000 Subject: Half Bloods! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103956 "I have been wondering about Viktor Krum. Why bring him in unless we will hear from him again? * Gina" I'm not dismissing the fact that Viktor could be the HBP since no body knows except for JKR and all anyone else knows is that its not Harry or Voldemort. However, I don't think that it is Krum simply because I think his role was to show that even though he came from the same school as Karkaroff does not mean that he was evil. I think he was also a character to perhaps give Hermione a love-interest or he might hold some other role but for some odd reason I do not think he is the HBP. Oh and are we certain that the HBP is a character that we've met before? I'm assuming that the character was introduced in book2. Maybe thats what she wants up to think though, since it was almost the title for the CoS. If we are going for the prince-title-could-be-uni-sex-thing then what about Myrtle? Did we ever find out her blood status other then the fact that she obviously wasn't pure blood. Just some thoughts, ...tay From leperockon at aol.com Thu Jul 1 19:55:05 2004 From: leperockon at aol.com (taylorlynzie) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 19:55:05 -0000 Subject: The Opening Chapter of Book 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103957 > > LU-CIUS !! LU-CIUS !! > > Ooooh, sweeeet joy, can you imagine, Lucius being killed by a > Muggle-born almost-Squib ?! Ooooh, it's most probably not going to > happen, but it feels SOOOOOOOOOO GOOD !! Thanks so much Vivian ! > > Del haha that WOULD be fantastic! ...tay <3 From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 20:01:01 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 20:01:01 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103959 Alla wrote previously: > > > > I don't think so anymore, although it is subject to correction, of > > course. For now I am convinced that whoever practices Dark Magic > > in "Potterverse" is evil, period) > > > > With that attitude in mind, I give Sirius major credit for breaking > > away from them. > > > Kneasy: > Being a bit unforgiving aren't you? > By that standard Harry is "evil, period" for casting a Crucio! in the > Ministry. > Alla: Unforgiving? Maybe . I maybe phrased it a little too harshly, but my original intent still stands. OK, how about that - "Anybody who practices Dark Magic on a permanent basis and kills people with it is evil, period" skip. > > Alla wrote previously: > > > > We don't know whether Sirius was punished or not. We only know that > > he was not expelled. It is a pure speculation that he would > > definitely told Harry if he was punished. Maybe the punishment was so > > embarrasing for him that he did not want to mention it to Harry. > > > snip. > > > > Kneasy: > This topic was discussed at length last year, if you remember. I haven't > had time to go back to it, but the general consensus, backed by DD > having told Snape never to mention the incident again, leans towards no > punishment being handed out. There may be more definite evidence; > I'll have to do a search. > > Alla: General consensus among Snape defenders? :o) I remember the discussion and remember myself absolutely not being convinced by that. DD telling Snape not to mention the incident again is irrelevant to whether Sirius was punished or not. Could it be that Dumbledore was simply concerned about other students learning that werewolf is one of the students? Could it be that he was concerned about Lupin, who so far as the general consensus seems to be (Pippin excluded of course :o)) was the absolutely innocent party in all of that. I don't remember ANY evidence in canon that Sirius was or was not punished, but of course I am always prepared to eat my words. I tend to think that he was punished enough under Dumbledore standards, but of course not enough under Snape's. snip. > Kneasy: > No. > There is no evidence that he was particularly bright. By all accounts the > Animagus spell doesn't require brains, just practice to get it right. Alla: Animagus spell does not require brains? I beg to differ. There are only seven of the registered after all in the last century. It must have been not very easy to manage it. Besides McGonagall calls Sirius and James the brightest students in PoA. From chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 20:01:59 2004 From: chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com (alora) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 20:01:59 -0000 Subject: Paying for Hogwarts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103960 I'm slowly working my way through the books again, just trolling for clues, when I began to think of something. Does one pay for Hogwarts? Yes, Harry has a small fortune in gold in Gringotts, but we never see or hear how Hagrid/Harry pays tuition to go to Hogwarts. I thought about the Weasleys, and how many books, parchments, quills, robes etc that they need, and how much that must cost. Add to that actual tuition and it must cost a small fortune! How does a poorer family make it? Or am I just thinking about one of those things that the reader isn't supposed to worry about, because it doesn't affect the story in any way? I have four kids, so I am imagining 4 wands, 4 sets of robes, 4 sets of books....there is no way we could afford it all. I don't know how Molly and Arthur do it. I salute them! Alora :) From rzl46 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 20:04:20 2004 From: rzl46 at yahoo.com (rzl46) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 20:04:20 -0000 Subject: The Anagram game was Re: Alice Longbottom In-Reply-To: <20040701152419.83699.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103961 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Miyuki Takagi wrote: > Luke wrote: > > I played around with the letters as well, and I got > > > > "Ron B W is muggle Blood" > > > > Well, the W obviously stands for Weasley, and mabye the B is his > > middle name. > > > I think I read somewhere (on some interview or something) that Ron's > middle name started with a 'B.' It was some horrible latin name that I > can't remember. So I suppose it *could* be 'RON B W IS MUGGLE BLOOD.' > > enderbean I was playing around with anagrams today and came up with "It's Muggle-born Bode's bowl." What do you make of that one? MaggieB From leperockon at aol.com Thu Jul 1 20:10:29 2004 From: leperockon at aol.com (taylorlynzie) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 20:10:29 -0000 Subject: Paying for Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103962 I don't think that Hogwarts has a Tuition other then the books and a wand and robes, ect ect ect. I think that the school perhaps runs off donations from wealthy families such as the Malfoy's... or if there is a tuition perhaps there is a scholarship program for cases like the Weasleys. ...tay From vmonte at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 20:18:25 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 20:18:25 -0000 Subject: HBP?? (Message for Andrew) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103963 Andrew wrote: I think that it might be the title to the 6th book, but I am not sure. No one has answered my post yet. And I also have discovered from reading these confusing posts, that Half Blood Prince or some such was the original title for the chamber of secrets. Andrew...still confused vmonte responds: The title of book six will be: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince. Look on JKR's website. Click on the Daily News. http://origin.jkrowling.com/en/ vivian :) From kalmeeeh at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 19:18:37 2004 From: kalmeeeh at yahoo.com (kalmeeeh) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 19:18:37 -0000 Subject: Harry's potions O.W.L - Outstanding-NOT. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103964 smartone wrote: > Well, from what I have read of potions, unless you follow the > instuctions to the letter, your potion is off (even just a half > turn too far clockwise). Therefore, wouldn't the scorers need > only be concerned with the final work, because it magnifies every > mistake? There are two parts to the test, a practical portion, and the written portion. I doubt Harry did too well on his written portion, except the part on the polyjuice question. I don't know if both parts have the same percentage toward the final grade, because in potions, being able to make the potion seems far more important. So, the practical part of the exam may weigh more toward the final grade. - Luke From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 20:41:11 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 20:41:11 -0000 Subject: Paying for Hogwarts - Show me the money! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103965 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "alora" wrote: > ... > > Does one pay for Hogwarts? ... Add to that actual tuition and it > must cost a small fortune! How does a poorer family make it? > > Or am I just thinking about one of those things that the reader > isn't supposed to worry about, because it doesn't affect the story > in any way? I have four kids, so I am imagining 4 wands, 4 sets of > robes, 4 sets of books....there is no way we could afford it all. > > I don't know how Molly and Arthur do it. I salute them! > > Alora :) asian_lovr2: As far as incidental costs like robes, wands, books, and supplies for school, I agree that stuff doesn't come cheap. But like poor families in the real world, the Weasleys get by. Mr. Weasley /does/ have a job, so his family is not destitute, they just have to spend their money very wisely. If the money runs out this week, then expenses are deferred until next week. Remember there are poor people everywhere in the real world, and they have to by food, books, school supplies, sneakers/trainers, clothes, etc..., etc..., etc.... Although, as much as their kids hate it, they buy generic sneakers at K-Mart rather than 'Nike' at the Foot Locker (USA sports shoe store). Side note: If you want to consider significant expenses, consider the cost of feeding a pack of active teenage Weasley boys. The Weasley's probably save a fortune by sending their kids to school. Although, the food bill at Hogwarts has to be pretty staggering too. Tuition at Hogwarts- I think Hogwarts is a foundation. I runs on an endowment left to the school by it's founders. Likely that the founders left the buildings, the land, initial monetary grants/endowments, and upon their demise, a signficant and substantial portion of their estates to Hogwarts School Foundation. Additional funds come from grants and donations from living alumni, from donation from the estates of deceased alumni, and from very wise and careful investment of their money. In addition, I have always speculated that the 12 members of the Board of Governors of Hogwarts School were the 12 largest donors. They are charged with making sure that the Founder's Endowment and alumni donations are managed wisely so as to preserve the working capital of the school. Conclusion, no tuition at Hogwarts. Just a thought. Steve/asian_lovr2 From plungy116 at aol.com Thu Jul 1 19:47:37 2004 From: plungy116 at aol.com (haraheart) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 19:47:37 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103966 smartone wrote: > I mean, if you had some gigantic secret object you needed to > protect, would you give it to Neville (who is remakably similar > to Peter)? No, UH? I haven't read any replies to this, but Neville is nothing like Peter. He is a good and loyal friend who tries his best. I cannot imagine him being drawn onto the dark side - his family mean too much to him for him to betray their allegiance. Yours, in arms Sarah xx (who is finding herself strangely warming to Neville all the time - maybe it's because I had a crush on my physics teacher, and he was called Neville) From trisana_farwell at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 19:38:33 2004 From: trisana_farwell at yahoo.com (trisana_farwell) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 19:38:33 -0000 Subject: Animagi Lupin? Re: Marauder's Map: Selective Against Marauders? Somewhat OT question. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103967 > Pandrea wrote: > > Do we know that the Map can see through an animagi disguise? > Fx wrote: > In PoA Lupin says he was studying the map when he saw "three > people going under the tree". He says there was Ron, Sirius > and Peter. We know that Sirius and Peter were in their animal > form and only Ron was normal shaped. This would suggest that > the map indeed sees through animagi. Trisana asks: This just raised another question in my mind. Is Lupin a true animagi? We all know he's a werewolf, but can he really transform into his form on demand like the other Marauders? I suppose since they all learned the skill, Lupin could be an animagi, but that doesn't seem logical at the same time, since he naturally transforms every month anyway (like a woman on her period, I say *giggles*). Ah, and because it -is- my first post here: Hi! I'm Trisana, and I suspect that this isn't really the best place for my HP obsession, since it seems to fuel it even more. :P I've been hanging around the fandom since I was eleven (I'm now seventeen) so that makes, wowzers, about five years! (Sorry, that's the first time this year I've calculated how many years I've been here.) I decided to join HP4GU to try something new, as far as communities go. It seems like every corner of the fandom is different. :P Anyway, I'm excited to see such well supported theories flying around here. ~Trisana From plungy116 at aol.com Thu Jul 1 20:15:27 2004 From: plungy116 at aol.com (haraheart) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 20:15:27 -0000 Subject: Paying for Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103968 Alora wrote: > Does one pay for Hogwarts? Yes, Harry has a small fortune in gold in Gringotts, but we never see or hear how Hagrid/Harry pays tuition to go to Hogwarts. I thought about the Weasleys, and how many books, parchments, quills, robes etc that they need, and how much that must cost. Add to that actual tuition and it must cost a small fortune! How does a poorer family make it? << In Britain children are entitled to a free education until the age of 18, when it then becomes terribly expensive. However, normally, boarding schools such as Hogwarts would be privately run and therefore fees would be paid. At Hogwarts I always thought that there was a kind of scholarship deal, children whose older siblings were there got a discount...but then your post made me think - what choice is there? Is Hogwarts the only secondary school for wizards and witches in Britain? Think of all those potentially great wizarding folk who could miss out on a fine magical education because they were poor. I had never thought of funding before - just assumed it was free. Maybe it's a right, and the Ministry of Magic funds it all (teachers pay and equipment, etc.)and great benefactors (?like Lucius?) are greatly appreciated and have influence... Sarah xx "Neville for Prince" From gwyneth521 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 20:22:31 2004 From: gwyneth521 at yahoo.com (Gwyneth Johnson) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 13:22:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Paying for Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040701202231.84850.qmail@web60508.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103969 Alora wrote: > Does one pay for Hogwarts? Yes, Harry has a small fortune in gold > in Gringotts, but we never see or hear how Hagrid/Harry pays tuition > to go to Hogwarts. I thought about the Weasleys, and how many > books, parchments, quills, robes etc that they need, and how much > that must cost. Add to that actual tuition and it must cost a small > fortune! How does a poorer family make it? GwynethJ: I wonder if they have some sort of work study option for those who couldn't pay a tuition if there was one. I seem to vaguely remember a sentence once about one of the Gryffindor chasers working in the library and although the movie isn't necessarily canon, there are images in the first movie of students reshelving books. So that might be an option for some students . . . GwynethJ From leperockon at aol.com Thu Jul 1 20:51:44 2004 From: leperockon at aol.com (taylorlynzie) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 20:51:44 -0000 Subject: How? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103970 How in the world are you supposed to open the brick wall at JK Rowling's website. If anyone can tell me I'd be so grateful. Its dreadfully hard and doesn't seem to have a pattern... is it even possible to get past the brick wall? ...tay <33 From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Thu Jul 1 20:54:36 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 15:54:36 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] How? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103971 is it even possible to get past the brick wall? ...tay <33 yes label top to bottom 1-5 and I think it is 34251 but I lost my piece of paper so you will have to try it - good luck Gina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 20:55:37 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 20:55:37 -0000 Subject: How? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103972 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "taylorlynzie" wrote: > How in the world are you supposed to open the brick wall at JK > Rowling's website. If anyone can tell me I'd be so grateful. Its > dreadfully hard and doesn't seem to have a pattern... is it even > possible to get past the brick wall? > > ...tay <33 Read post #103474 or go to the following link http://home.comcast.net/~jasonjacqui/doorbricks.jpg Julie From leperockon at aol.com Thu Jul 1 21:00:14 2004 From: leperockon at aol.com (taylorlynzie) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 21:00:14 -0000 Subject: How? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103973 thanks! is there even anything in there besides the title for book 6? From alina at distantplace.net Thu Jul 1 21:03:10 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 17:03:10 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Animagi Lupin? Re: Marauder's Map: Selective Against Marauders? Somewhat OT question. References: Message-ID: <016a01c45fae$d14c18f0$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 103974 > This just raised another question in my mind. Is Lupin a true > animagi? We all know he's a werewolf, but can he really transform > into his form on demand like the other Marauders? > > I suppose since they all learned the skill, Lupin could be an > animagi, but that doesn't seem logical at the same time, since he > naturally transforms every month anyway (like a woman on her period, > I say *giggles*). > ~Trisana But nowhere in the books is Lupin called an animagus. He's not. He's a werewolf, a completely different story altogether. It's the other three Marauders who became animagi in order to be able to be with Lupin even when he's in wolf form, they learned in secret from him. Lupin never learned to be an animagus and he isn't one. Alina. From deyerlejm at aol.com Thu Jul 1 18:47:34 2004 From: deyerlejm at aol.com (smartone564) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 18:47:34 -0000 Subject: Knights of Walpurgis Re: Why Tom Riddle isn't the "Prince" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103975 greatelderone: > Perhaps it was a nickname given to him by his fellow students at > Hogwarts that he later cast away after he rejected his heritage > as a half-blood and became obessessed with the whole pureblood > supremacy thing? Geoff: > But in COS, Tom demonstrates that the name came from creating > an anagram of Tom Marvolo Riddle and to make a sensible one, it > would seem that he had to include the word Lord, which probably > pleased him immensely. In the initial line of this thread, someone said that LV's house didn't look like a prince lived there. Well, he did have TWO parents, what about his other side's house (which, btw, is his magical heritage). Also, what difference would it make if people realized that TR became LV? I agree with the people who called him Voldemort at school became his first DEs, since JP's group of friends became the backbone of the OotP, didn't it? smartone From plungy116 at aol.com Thu Jul 1 21:03:08 2004 From: plungy116 at aol.com (haraheart) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 21:03:08 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and the Hogwart's Hallows Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103976 I have been browsing around some HP sites, and after a suggestion I looked up the UK patent office and found the following patents: HP and the Alchemist's Cell HP and the Battle for Hogwarts HP and the Chariots of Light HP and the Final Revelation HP and the Great Revelation HP and the Green Flame Torch (heard this one before) HP and the Hallows of Hogwarts HP and the Hogsmeade Tomb HP and the Hogwarts Hallows I'm guessing that JKR was just getting all possible titles patented before anyone else got in there. So, along with what we know are the real titles of the first 6 books, it looks like JKR has been throwing around some ideas. Do they give us any clues? Most of them were registered in July 2003. Titles for 6 and 7? Can we speculate anything else from them about plots? Sarah xx From fienxjox at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 21:07:40 2004 From: fienxjox at yahoo.com (fienxjox) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 21:07:40 -0000 Subject: Animagi Lupin? Re: Marauder's Map: Selective Against Marauders? Somewhat OT question. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103977 > Trisana asks: > > This just raised another question in my mind. Is Lupin a true > animagi? We all know he's a werewolf, but can he really transform > into his form on demand like the other Marauders? > > I suppose since they all learned the skill, Lupin could be an > animagi I'm not sure, but I believe it is in the books (perhaps only the movie) that it is one of the differences between a werewolf and an animagi that one has no choice in the change. This is also in a number of books (obviously not by JKR) that there is a distinct difference in choice and the methodology behind the change. An Animagi learns whereas a werewolf is just bitten. Not sure if there is other "official" differences (lots around but which pertain?) > Ah, and because it -is- my first post here > ~Trisana Welcome, Fx From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Jul 1 21:15:12 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 21:15:12 -0000 Subject: JKR says no, and she's no Dobby (was: Prince of Walpurgis ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103978 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Phil Boswell" wrote: Phil: > IIRC what Dobby actually said was something like "not ... > HE-WHO-MUST-NOT-BE-NAMED ..." whilst giving Harry a significant look > which Harry totally failed to spot. This was in response to a direct > question from Harry the precise phrasing of which fails me now but I > expect someone out there has the book surgically attached to their > keyboard :-) Geoff: As one of the surgeons-in-residence at the Harry Potter Canon Clinic, my diagnosis is as follows: '"What terrible things?" said Harry at once. "Who's plotting them?" Dobby made a funny choking noise and then banged his head madly against the wall. "All right!" cried Harry, grabing the elf's arm to stop him. "You can't say, I understand. But why are you warning /me/?" A sudden, unpleasant thought struch him. "Hang on - this hasn't got anything to do with Vol - sorry - with You Know Who, has it? You could just shake or nod," he added hastily as Dobby's head tilted worryingly close to the wall again. Slowly, Dobby shook his head. "Not - not He Who Must Not be Named, sir." But Dobby's eyes were wide andhe seemed to be trying to give Harry a hint. Harry, however, was completely at sea.' (COS "Dobby's Warning" p.18 UK edition) '"I've got just one question, Dobby," said Harry as Dobby pulled on Harry's sock with shaking hands."You told me all this had nothing to do with He Who Must Not be Named, remember? Well -" "It was a clue, sir," said Dobby, his eyes widening asthough this was obvious. "Dobby was giving you a clue. The Dark Lord, before he changed his name, could be freeyl named, you see?"' (COS "Dobby's Reward" p.249 UK edition) I would agree that this does not appear to be a "mistake" on Dobby's part and that the elf is making a conscious, deliberate differentiation between Tom Riddle and Voldemort. Let me say that I have not joined in this debate because it seems to be producing wackier and wackier solutions. My only question would be that, having used this "deception" before, would JKR repeat the same thing which almost amounts to a play on words (or names)? From jodel at aol.com Thu Jul 1 21:15:59 2004 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel_from_aol) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 21:15:59 -0000 Subject: James Potter's "profession" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103979 I thbink I'm reasonably sharp. But sometimes I'm just not too swift. This is a half-baked illustration of how sometimes it takes an amazing amount of time before the penny finally drops. Because, I think I've finally figured out what James Potter did for a living. Rowling gave us a all strong hint if it. *Years* ago. What she's always told us directly was that most of James's money was inherited. Most recently she's said that he had come into enough that he didn't need a well-paying job (or, one presumes, a steady one). But everything we've been told, and what we've seen of James Potter suggests that he would still have chosen to do something with himself, even if it didn't exactly *pay*. Well, this week, somebody over on WIKtT posted a question regarding Patroni, as to whether they always took the form of animals. A reasonable question, certainly. And the Patroni we've actually seen in canon do all seem to have taken animal forms. However, I have a fairly retentative memory and I recalled a very old interview wherin Rowling had informed us (probably in respone to the question of whether James Potter's Partonus was also a stag) that James's Patronus was a nose- biting teacup. He had evidently been trying to develop one and was so delighted when he suceeded (do we really need to guess whose nose got bitten?) that the silly thing eventually became his Patronus. Well. Correct me if I'm wrong -- because this is the point at which it all goes south if I've misremembered my references -- but aren't nose- biting teacups one of the items sold at Zonko's? Why would James try to *make* one if he could have just gone out and bought one? Unless he *invented* them in the first place. And either sold the procedure to Zonko (or his supplier), or patented it and was paid a royalty on them. Harry's Gringotts account may still be collecting a steady trickle of knuts from James Potter's nose-biting teacup. And possibly other such items as well. Hagrid comments that Fred and George would have given James and Sirius a run for their money, but not that they outclassed them. Nor can one imagine Fred and George being likely to "outgrow" their interest in ever bigger and better pranks by the time they reach Tonks's age of 22. Which is the high end of James's probable age range at the time he was killed. Even without the Weasleys' spur of actually needing to make a lot of money, I can no longer imagine any vocation which is so likely to have been attractive to a young James Potter. Which renders Harry's decision to back the twins financially a singularly apt bit of poetic justice, and an eminently fitting memorial. From jodel at aol.com Thu Jul 1 21:18:06 2004 From: jodel at aol.com (jodel_from_aol) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 21:18:06 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and the Hogwart's Hallows In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103980 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "haraheart" wrote: > I have been browsing around some HP sites, and after a suggestion I > looked up the UK patent office and found the following patents: > > I'm guessing that JKR was just getting all possible titles patented > before anyone else got in there. Bet thoise patents are not in either Rowling's name or those of her publishers. Think "game developers" more likely. Or "scam artists". From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Thu Jul 1 21:23:35 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 16:23:35 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry Potter and the Hogwart's Hallows Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103981 HP and the Alchemist's Cell HP and the Battle for Hogwarts HP and the Chariots of Light HP and the Final Revelation HP and the Great Revelation HP and the Green Flame Torch (heard this one before) HP and the Hallows of Hogwarts HP and the Hogsmeade Tomb HP and the Hogwarts Hallows Can we speculate anything else from them about plots? Sarah xx I would say that we were right about a battle being fought at Hogwarts the last? Maybe. I would say that GH or the past of the Marauders will be the big shocker (revelation). We know that green is associated with Harry/Lily eyes and with the AK curse. I say there must be a place in Hogwarts or on the grounds that we have not seen or at least not had elaborated for us that will most likely contain graves of some important people. This is what I see anyway. As for the chariots I am not sure - something to do with the thestrals?? Doubtful. Gina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Jul 1 21:26:21 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 21:26:21 -0000 Subject: They have some detail terribly wrong... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103982 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan" wrote: Susan: > I feel like I should have known when HP sees Barty Crouch on the > Marauders' Map, then runs into Moody. Crouch is so sick that he > can't even go into work, and has "Weatherby" doing all his errands > for him, but yet he's well enough to go running around Hogwarts at > night? I'm not saying I should have known it was Barty Jr, but I > should have known something was amiss. I took it at face value that > is really *was* Barty Crouch! Geoff: But Harry /was/ of the opinion that something odd was happening but couldn't come to any conclusion... 'Harry walked slowly back to Gryffindor Tower, lost in thought about Snape and Crouch and what it all meant... Why was Crouch pretending to be ill if he could manage to get to Hogwarts when he wanted to? What did he think Snape was concealing in his office?' (GOF "The Egg and the Eye" p.415 UK edition) From pcsgames at toltbbs.com Thu Jul 1 21:37:12 2004 From: pcsgames at toltbbs.com (Phil Vlasak) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 17:37:12 -0400 Subject: How about Dobby for the Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: <20040630204703.59083.qmail@web25301.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <20040630204703.59083.qmail@web25301.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20040701170125.02be9cd0@mail.toltbbs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103983 >Udder PenDragon wrote: > >We seem to think that the HBP appeared and had a role in Book 2. What >about Dobby we know nothing of his origin and for a House Elf he is wierd. >Could he be our HBP? > >TTFN UdderPD Now Phil continues: Will the real Half Blood Prince stand up? What? He is? Dobby is the Half Blood Prince! Here are the reasons why: 1. Since he was at the Malfoy Mansion for years, he would know all about their other dark items. 2. Maybe he was James Potter's House-Elf before the house blew up. 3. He could Apparate into the Riddle House and spy on what LV is doing. 4. He knew about the Room of Requirement, so what other secrets does he know at Hogwarts? And, finally, 5. What other live character has green eyes like Harry? Answer, Dobby! Smiles, Phil Pickle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Jul 1 21:31:30 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 21:31:30 -0000 Subject: Is Mark Evans the half blood prince? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103984 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Phil Boswell" wrote: > Miss Melanie wrote: > [snip] > > How common is the name Evans in Britian anyway? > > Depends upon which part of Britain you mean. It's quite common across > the whole of the country, but particularly in Wales, where ISTR it is > second only in popularity to "Jones". > Also "Evans" is more properly spelt "Efans" in Welsh because they > pronounce the letter "F" like a "V". There is no letter "V" in Welsh. > Which is also interesting. Geoff: But bear in mind that the traditional Welsh-speaking areas of the Principality are in the North and West. Most of South Wales has an English-speaking background so Evans is Evans is Evans around there. Again, as you say, it is spread well across the country. Good Evans, I know several myself..... Diolch yn fawr. From jsummerill at summerillj.freeserve.co.uk Thu Jul 1 21:43:20 2004 From: jsummerill at summerillj.freeserve.co.uk (jotwo2003) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 21:43:20 -0000 Subject: Crazy, longshot theory but it's mine re book 6 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103985 Now JKR's announced the title of book 6 and said it has connections to COS I've been following the debate about who the titular character is and I began re-reading COS for clues. In chapter 2, Dobby's Warning, I found the following passages: 'Hang on - this hasn't got anything to do with Vol - sorry - I mean You Know Who, has it? You could just shake or nod,' he [Harry] added hastily, as Dobby's head tilted worryingly close to the wall again. Slowly, Dobby shook his head. 'Not - not He Who Must Not Be Named, sir.' But Dobby's eyes were wide and he seemed to be trying to give Harry a hint. Harry, however, was completely at sea. 'He hasn't got a brother, has he?' Dobby shook his head, his eyes wider than ever. Now, this sparked a crazy, long shot theory but one which I'd like to patent. Dobby shaking his head and widening his eyes is his way of saying yes, it is Voldemort. JKR states categorically that Dobby is giving a hint. And of course she confirms this at the end when Dobby says he did mean Voldemort: "It was a clue sir,' said Dobby, his eyes widening, as though this was obvious. 'Dobby was giving you a clue.' (Chapter 18 Dobby's Reward). As Dobby makes exactly the same gestures to Harry's second question then maybe this also means yes. Yes, Voldemort does have a brother. Who could this brother be? Tom Riddle is a half blood. Presumably his brother is a half blood. The Half Blood Prince? Dobby is in a position to know if Voldemort has a brother. He serves the Malfoys so he is privy to what they know. Lucius Malfoy knows Voldemort's true parentage and identity. If anyone would know of the existence of a brother, it would be him. Also JKR did state in the March 4th 2004 chat, "You will find out more about the circumstances of his [Voldemort's] birth in the next book." Was he a twin? There are some snags to this theory. One is that Dumbledore states that Voldemort is the last descendant of Salazar Slytherin. However, this does not rule out the possibility that there were once other descendants. Voldemort's brother could have died before COS. (Maybe Voldemort killed him. He wiped out his paternal grandparents, the Riddles, and his father, Tom, so he's got form.) If this putative long lost brother is the Half Blood Prince then maybe Harry will find out about him rather than meet him. Or perhaps he could go back in time and meet him. JKR was asked once if Harry would time travel again and she said, "Not telling". She was asked too if Harry would become an animagi and she gave a straightforward no as an answer. As she was cagey about the time travel question perhaps she did not want to give away a plot twist. Also she re-introduced time turners in the Department of Mysteries in OOP, which has made people speculate that one will be used again at some point in book 6 or 7. Another possible flaw is if Tom Riddle has a brother, why is he living in a Muggle orphanage, if his brother is the HBP? I can't think of a good reason. However there are literary precedents for separated siblings e. g. two sets of twins in The Comedy of Errors, so it is not unknown in fiction. I won't go into the discussion about whether the HBP literally is a Prince as it's been covered elsewhere. The only mention of the word Prince so far in HP has been metaphorical. It was in OOP when Dumbledore said Harry had not turned up at Hogwarts as a "pampered little prince". Maybe Voldemort's putative brother just had a privileged upbringing. JoTwo From Zarleycat at aol.com Thu Jul 1 22:25:25 2004 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 22:25:25 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103986 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" < > Kneasy: > > > It's to be expected many of the softer-hearted fans are suckers for > > the > > > 'damaged hero' figure in fiction. Handsome, anguished, just a touch > > > dangerous - oooh! Personal fantasies go into overdrive and denial > > > sets in - "He can't be bad - I like him!" > > > > > > Oh yes he can. And he probably is. > > > > Marianne: > > > > Except for the "handsome" part, the above paragraph would cover a lot > > of the Snape fans, too! He's dangerous, he's mysterious, he billows, > > he's vampirish, he's damaged...Need I go on? > > > > Too true. > But most of them are seeing Alan Rickman, not the grotty old Sevvy > that JKR envisaged. > > Mind you, even so he may cause a maiden's heart to skip a beat, > that's why I wrote of the failed affair between him and Lily. Broken > hearted, she was - spurned by S. Snape, dedicated to his studies. > (see post 77800). > Marianne: Oh, sure there's a definite Rickman influence now, but I've been on this board since before the first movie came out. Trust me, Snape has always had his share of people who find him attractive. And while I find your take on the Snape/Lily thing to be refreshing in that you put Lily as the spurned one, that's one couple that I just can't see. So, of course, it will probably turn out to be true! Marianne From plungy116 at aol.com Thu Jul 1 21:25:15 2004 From: plungy116 at aol.com (haraheart) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 21:25:15 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and the Hogwart's Hallows In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103987 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jodel_from_aol" wrote > > Bet those patents are not in either Rowling's name or those of her > publishers. > > Think "game developers" more likely. Or "scam artists". Oh yes, I hadn't really thought of that, but wouldn't JKR have the patent on "Harry Potter" - nothing could use those words without her say so? Or am I just being naive? Sarah xx From eleanor at dreamvine.org.uk Thu Jul 1 21:40:00 2004 From: eleanor at dreamvine.org.uk (iamvine) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 21:40:00 -0000 Subject: Paying for Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103988 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "alora" wrote: > Does one pay for Hogwarts? Yes, Harry has a small fortune in gold > in Gringotts, but we never see or hear how Hagrid/Harry pays tuition > to go to Hogwarts. I thought about the Weasleys, and how many > books, parchments, quills, robes etc that they need, and how much > that must cost. Add to that actual tuition and it must cost a small > fortune! How does a poorer family make it? Apart from endowments, how about Muggle taxes? After all, every child in Britain is entitled to a free education - and if the only school that can cater for a child's special educational (magical) needs is a boarding school, wouldn't the child's local education authority have to pay for that? The WW is not totally separate from Muggle society - a significant proportion of Hogwarts pupils have Muggle parents. The Ministry of Magic is a branch of the UK government - Fudge liaises with the Muggle prime minister (Major, I suppose) occasionally. And Gringotts can change Muggle money into Galleons, as we see Hermione's parents doing. Which raises the question of whether wizards pay Muggle income tax, council tax etc... I have the feeling JKR really really doesn't want to get into that. :) Eleanor From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Thu Jul 1 22:47:40 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 22:47:40 -0000 Subject: Crazy, longshot theory but it's mine re book 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103989 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jotwo2003" wrote: > 'Hang on - this hasn't got anything to do with Vol - sorry - I >mean You Know Who, has it? >You could just shake or nod,' he [Harry] added > hastily, as Dobby's head tilted worryingly close to the wall again. > Slowly, Dobby shook his head. > 'Not - not He Who Must Not Be Named, sir.' > But Dobby's eyes were wide and he seemed to be trying to give >Harry a hint. Harry, however, was completely at sea. > 'He hasn't got a brother, has he?' "K" All I can really say is I agree that statement means something. *He hasn't got a brother, has he* ~ Tom - Male ~ Greek Form of THOMAS ~ A twin From pandrea100 at hotmail.com Thu Jul 1 22:39:30 2004 From: pandrea100 at hotmail.com (pandrea100) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 22:39:30 -0000 Subject: Prince of Walpurgis - Tales from the Dark Side. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103990 Ally wrote > > I suppose that if its not Tom Riddle, Godric Gryffindor would be a > plausible alternative. But from a narrative perspective, if it is > Godric Gryffindor, what would the significance be? What would a > story focusing largely on him do for the books? Well, it needn't focus on him really - after all, did GoF focus on the Goblet? It does have to connect to Harry but it could be something he encounters or finds out which influences events but doesn't dominate the book. > One way this would > make sense is if Harry is somehow related to GG - "heir" of > Gryffindor and all - but I HATE this theory, largely b/c JKR seems > to have repudiated the idea that heritage matters in determining a > person's courage or worth. To have her hero turn out to be a > direct lineal descendant of GG would go against that whole theme > (and not to mention absolutely make me hurl). Me too, I couldn't agree more. Another reason I dislike it is that it seems too neat - he's the heir of Gryffindor, the enemy is the heir of Slytherin, they're just re-enacting some old story. Blah, boring. I don't know, maybe it is Riddle. At present, GG seems most likely to me but I won't mind at all if it turns out I'm totally wrong. Pandrea From aandj at labyrinth.net.au Thu Jul 1 22:37:31 2004 From: aandj at labyrinth.net.au (Jocelyn Grunow) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 09:37:31 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103991 on 2/7/2004 2:13 AM, arrowsmithbt at arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com wrote: > The Potters were a young couple; would they envisage both of them > being snuffed out and Harry surviving? Parents worry about what will happen to their babies. And with LV rampaging around, of course they would appoint a guardian! Jocelyn From drednort at alphalink.com.au Thu Jul 1 23:03:34 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 09:03:34 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's parents In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40E524E6.31055.3402C5@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 103992 On 1 Jul 2004 at 15:30, jjjjjuliep wrote: > On this list I see a lot of, for lack of a better word, angst being > expended on topics like this, and a search for discord and disharmony > within the lives of characters where (in my opinion--and it's just my > opinion which doesn't mean that I'm forbidding anyone to stop > discussing it) it does not exist. I have no problem with folks > thinking and writing whatever they please. But authorial intent has > got to count for something, especially in a closely-plotted and > written series like the HP books, and I don't think JKR has expended > a great deal of effort in writing subterranean emotional stories for > all of her characters. JKR, in my opinion, is very careful with the > picture she draws for her readers, and her language and style--her > trope if you will--is not about deep hidden meanings and conflicts > (apart from the clues, plot devices, and many other things which are > at naturally home in a mystery/adventure story). As they say, your > mileage may vary. And that's OK with me. ;-) The thing is, while I agree that JKR probably hasn't expended a great deal of effort in writing subterranean emotional stories for all of her characters - I would be rather surprised if she hasn't considered these issues in the case of Hermione - she's one of the three most significant characters in the series. And, yes, she is very careful with the picture she draws for her readers - and when she's drawn a picture of a 14 and 15 year old girl who has seen her parents for a week in a period of twenty months, and whose reaction to becoming a prefect seems to be that this is finally something her parents will understand, and who when she finally does see her parents a few days after almost dying, gives them a quick hug, and then 'gently disengages' herself from her mother, to rejoin her wizarding friends, I think it's unlikely those statements are winding up in the text unless there is a reason for them. > Also, from a humane point of view, I also personally don't like to > see people getting upset over issues like Hermione's perceived bad > relationship with her parents, mainly because there have been some > very sad and upsetting events thus far in the series, with more to > come. Well, as the person who raised this discussion, let me say that I don't find this particularly upsetting at all - if I was dealing with a real child, I certainly would find it upsetting - but it doesn't worry me with a fictional construct. In fact, I think in a book like the Harry Potter series which are being read by so many kids, this type of thing is highly positive - because there's so much that various children can relate to from their own lives. There are kids reading these books who come from lousy homes - as Harry does. Kids reading these books who come from poor homes - as Ron does. There are kids reading these books who have never known their parents, and who are having to deal with the trauma of losing someone they love. There are kids reading these books who've always felt different from the norm. Some of these kids read these books and are helped by them. I don't assume that that part of JKRs purpose, but that is part of their effect. Lots of kids *want* to read books that deal with real issues openly and honestly. They don't want a saccharine, sugar coated book where nothing bad happens - or, rather, if they did, they wouldn't be reading Harry Potter. I think there's real evidence for problems existing between Hermione and her parents. Honestly I find it rather hard to see how there wouldn't be, when they have found themselves sending their daughter into an alien world for most of every year, which I really doubt she talks much to them about. And while somebody else is certainly fully entitled to disagree with me, about what we're seeing, I don't think it's a good idea for people to refuse to believe things haved happened in the books simply because they don't like the idea. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From xtremesk8ergurl2 at aol.com Thu Jul 1 22:58:41 2004 From: xtremesk8ergurl2 at aol.com (xtremesk8ergurl2 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 18:58:41 EDT Subject: Paying for Hogwarts Message-ID: <8b.ebe1042.2e15f121@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 103993 In a message dated 7/1/2004 4:03:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com writes: Or am I just thinking about one of those things that the reader isn't supposed to worry about, because it doesn't affect the story in any way? I have four kids, so I am imagining 4 wands, 4 sets of robes, 4 sets of books....there is no way we could afford it all. I don't know how Molly and Arthur do it. I salute them! Maybee they're on some kind of scholarship or financial aid..Maybee there's even a discount for sending more than one child there! I could easily see Percey winning some kind of Scholarship, and maybee even Ron for being a prefect and Keeper and all, but I don't know how the others could have gotten one if they did..maybee for Quiditch? "xtremesk8ergurl" From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Fri Jul 2 00:28:51 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 00:28:51 -0000 Subject: James Potter's "profession" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103994 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jodel_from_aol" wrote: > > Well, this week, somebody over on WIKtT posted a question regarding Patroni, as to whether they always took the form of animals. A reasonable question, certainly. And the Patroni we've actually seen in canon do all seem to have taken animal forms. However, I have a fairly retentative memory and I recalled a very old interview wherin Rowling had informed us (probably in respone to the question of whether James Potter's Partonus was also a stag) that James's Patronus was a nose-biting teacup. He had evidently been trying to develop one and was so delighted when he suceeded (do we really need to guess whose nose got bitten?) that the silly thing eventually became his Patronus. > > Well. Correct me if I'm wrong -- because this is the point at which it all goes south if I've misremembered my references -- but aren't nose-biting teacups one of the items sold at Zonko's? Why would James try to *make* one if he could have just gone out and bought one? > > Unless he *invented* them in the first place. > Valky: Two things Jodel. 1 Wow you do have a retentive memory, I wonder if Jo was joking about the teacup. Do you have any further recollection of what interview it was? Please. 2 I can see James having conjured a Nose-biting Teacup Patronus without the necessity of having to invent one. Zonko's sells 'Nose- biting Teacups not 'Nose-biting Teacup Patroni'. James was a showoff I expect it was quite a party trick. Incedently it is quite remarkable if he was able to control the form of his patronus because I was under the impression that the patronus took form of something that reflected oneself from deep inside the subconcious. Not a place that the average person would be able to manipulate. From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Fri Jul 2 00:40:29 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 00:40:29 -0000 Subject: Hermione's parents In-Reply-To: <40E524E6.31055.3402C5@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103995 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" wrote: > On 1 Jul 2004 at 15:30, jjjjjuliep wrote: > > In fact, I think in a book like the Harry Potter series which are > being read by so many kids, this type of thing is highly positive - > because there's so much that various children can relate to from > their own lives. There are kids reading these books who come from > lousy homes - as Harry does. Kids reading these books who come from > poor homes - as Ron does. There are kids reading these books who > have never known their parents, and who are having to deal with the > trauma of losing someone they love. There are kids reading these > books who've always felt different from the norm. Even if children have none of these particular problems, at a certain age they beging to grow up and start to consider the idea of independence, of themselves as separate individuals from their parents. The HP books fit into a long line of children's books that help children visualize life apart from their elders. Like the Railway Children, with a missing father and an overwhelmed mother - the children have to sort of fend for themselves, and the children who read the story vicariously stretch themselves by imagining life without grownups. Consider the Narnia books - does anyone ever try to count how much time the Pevensey children spend with their own parents? The adults barely enter into the story, because the whole adventure is something that happens to the kids, without mom and dad hovering in the background to take over if necessary. Wanda From clr1971 at alltel.net Fri Jul 2 00:48:26 2004 From: clr1971 at alltel.net (Christina in GA) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 20:48:26 -0400 Subject: Good Slytherins / HBP idea Message-ID: <008501c45fce$4957a980$c800000a@crouton> No: HPFGUIDX 103996 I have to admit that reading this list then re-reading the books has helped me see things in a different light. I finished GoF the other night and noticed something at the end. DD had finished his speech about Harry and Cedric and the students were honoring them with a toast. On p 723, US Paperback, it says "...Harry saw that Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle and many of the other Slytherins remained defiantly in their seats, their goblets untouched." That hit me because it doesn't say "all of the Slytherins" but "many of the Slytherins", so I am interpreting that as meaning that some of the Slytherins did toast to Cedric and Harry. I hope we do get to see some of the Slytherins that are not part of Malfoy's group and think for themselves. As far as the Half-Blood Prince goes I am going along the lines of Godric Griffindor or Tom Riddle. I do see Tom Riddle as different than VM. Christina in GA (USA) Visit my Ebay Store! http://stores.ebay.com/pineywoodsbooks?refid=store [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 00:55:46 2004 From: sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com (sevenhundredandthirteen) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 00:55:46 -0000 Subject: Nose Biting Patronus / Zonko's vs Weasley's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103997 Valky wrote: > Incedently it is quite remarkable if he was able to control the form > of his patronus because I was under the impression that the patronus > took form of something that reflected oneself from deep inside the > subconcious. Not a place that the average person would be able to > manipulate. It sounds to me like a didn't choose the form his Patronus would take, only that he was so obsessed with Nose Biting Teacups that they inadvertantly became a symbol for him. After all, Hermione having an otter doesn't appear to reflect any deep subconsicous level, it just reflects herself. Nevertheless, I've never heard this quote before either, and am desperate to hear more! Does anyone else recollect such a statement? It sounds very JKR to me, but I couldn't find anything at The Quick Quote Quill. Any help? Still, I think that James owning/being some way related to Zonko's joke shop is a brilliant twist- it would make Weasley's Wizard Wheezes have considerable relevance beyond a good laugh. Harry could find out his father is related to Zonko's because of the twin's inside information on rival joke shops. It would also work well, as jodel_from_aol said- creating another link between James and Harry via the Weasleys: "Which renders Harry's decision to back the twins financially a singularly apt bit of poetic justice, and an eminently fitting memorial." Great idea! ~<(Laurasia)>~ From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 00:57:00 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 00:57:00 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 20, Hagrid's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103998 HunterGreen wrote: Indeed he could, but how to get them to agree to that? I think the giants have their own agenda, and while it might be possible to set up some sort of relations with them, I think convincing to fight for a cause could be asking too much. GEO responded: He doesn't have to. The current faction of the giants are more into killing and maiming. He could just simply portkey them into a spot to create chaos and havoc and force the MoM into diverting resources to controlling the giants and obliviating people who've seen them. Simply put they're a great resource in Voldemort's present war especially seeing how he has less priorities than the Ministry. Carol: I'm wondering how you would get even one giant to use a portkey, considering that most of them don't speak English and few if any trust wizards (Dark or otherwise). Suppose that one giant was sufficiently curious to touch the portkey and was whisked away before the eyes of the others. I'm betting the others would back off quickly or start throwing knives, stones, or whatever was handy at the wizards who caused their fellow giant to vanish. If they could be persuaded to come down from the mountains and wreak havoc on some continental European town near their village, they'd be dangerous for a short while, but the wizards (or Muggles) who survived would almost certainly find some way to destroy them. But suppose LV somehow found a way to transport them to England. Where would he hide them? How would he organize them? They won't even cooperate with each other, let alone with wizards. I can't figure out any plausible way for the Dark side to use them. (And presumably the "Light" side would simply want to warn them against the Dark side and otherwise leave them to murder each other in peace.) Carol, who wishes the giants had never been brought into the series except perhaps as an explanation for Hagrid's size From dennishorton at gmail.com Fri Jul 2 01:06:47 2004 From: dennishorton at gmail.com (Dennis) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 01:06:47 -0000 Subject: Favorite HP lines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 103999 Without a doubt, my favorite line comes from the final chapter of OotP when Umbridge is trying to sneak off but becomes the butt of Peeves's torment for the final time, as he "chased her gleefully from the premises whacking her alternately with a walking stick and a sock full of chalk." And the line: "Indeed, Professor McGonagall sank back into her chair at the staff table after a few feeble remonstrances and was clearly heard to express a regret that she could not run cheerfully after Umbridge herself, because Peeves had borrowed her walking stick." *g* Still makes me laugh out loud even after six or seven read-thrus. From clr1971 at alltel.net Fri Jul 2 01:14:31 2004 From: clr1971 at alltel.net (Christina in GA) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 21:14:31 -0400 Subject: Sirius revisted References: <1088617741.58290.24438.m4@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <008901c45fd1$ee0dc560$c800000a@crouton> No: HPFGUIDX 104000 Kneasy:2. Sirius may not be able to divulge the Potters hiding >place (presumably that location vanished from his mind when >handing over his duties), but he does know who the new SK is. >He must, otherwise he can't contact the Potters when necessary. Christina: I think some did know where the Potters lived, possibly Sirius and DD and Lupin, maybe some trusted others. The information wouldn't be forgotten. DD wrote the note about the headquarters of the OotP, Harry read it, remembered it, then the note was destroyed. He doesn't forget where the house is but he isn't the secret keeper so even though he knows where the house is he can't tell anyone. Someone else said that even if he had drank the tea Umbridge gave him - which I immediately believed contained something - she would not have understood what he was saying even if he told her the truth of the location. Kneasy: In the UK 'Godfather' is a purely symbolic title and >confers no rights nor places responsibilities/obligations on the >recipient. Of course, Godfather does have another meaning, ask >Mario Puzo. Christina: I don't know if the Potters left a will but usually asking someone to be a Godparent means that they name that person guardian for their child if something happens to them. I don't believe Lily would want her sister taking care of Harry, but I'm sure DD has his reasons. As an aside, when someone posted an alternate title for book 3, "Harry Potter and the Godfather" I immediately thought of the Godfather character : ) Kneasy : But there are those that think that Sirius would be a >most suitable guardian for Harry, even though: >He's spent 12 years in Azkaban and is on the run >He has no experience with children >He has no idea of Harry's emotional or physical needs >He is rash, disruptive, argumentative, a potential murderer (twice >plus the 'Prank'), compulsive, naive, and has totally unrealistic >expectations of Harry. Christina: Even with all of the above I think Sirius would have made a great guardian. He would not lock Harry in a room or half starve him. He would have proper clothes to wear instead of hand me downs that are too big, torn up and frayed. He would actually have a birthday party and do other things the Dursley's won't let him. I think Sirius would definitely have been able to cope with Harry's emotional and physical needs better than the Dursley's. The Dursley's HAVE experience with children and they don't treat Harry very well. Yes, he was in Azkaban - for a crime he didn't commit, and yes, I believe he was innocent. Yes, he does have all those personality attributes but no one is perfect. All parents just try to do their best. Kneasy: Some posters (myself included) have wondered if his >demise was not the result of enemy action but of deliberate >friendly fire. Christina : I sincerely hope not! Christina in GA - who secretly hopes Sirius is not really dead but will come to terms with whatever is in HBP. Visit my Ebay Store! http://stores.ebay.com/pineywoodsbooks?refid=store From clr1971 at alltel.net Fri Jul 2 01:21:41 2004 From: clr1971 at alltel.net (Christina in GA) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 21:21:41 -0400 Subject: Neville and the Thestrals References: <1088617741.58290.24438.m4@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <008d01c45fd2$ee6cdfe0$c800000a@crouton> No: HPFGUIDX 104001 becky: Just a general point here as I reread OotP... Neville's >grandfather was killed in front of him. Many signs point to >Neville's memory having been tampered with-- why would this >memory be left? Just musing, really... Christina: I have wondered this also, but I also wonder how his grandfather died? Could he have died in VMW1 when his parents were attacked? Christina in GA Visit my Ebay Store! http://stores.ebay.com/pineywoodsbooks?refid=store From aboutthe1910s at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 23:55:14 2004 From: aboutthe1910s at yahoo.com (aboutthe1910s) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 23:55:14 -0000 Subject: James Potter's "profession" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104002 > However, I have a fairly > retentative memory and I recalled a very old interview wherin Rowling > had informed us (probably in respone to the question of whether James > Potter's Partonus was also a stag) that James's Patronus was a nose- > biting teacup. I really like this idea... The only problem is that when I searched for the interview in which JKR said that James' Patronus was a nose-biting teacup, I couldn't find anything on it... Do you happen to remember where the interview originally appeared, or where a transcript can currently be found? a From jjjjjulie at aol.com Thu Jul 1 23:42:12 2004 From: jjjjjulie at aol.com (jjjjjuliep) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 23:42:12 -0000 Subject: Hermione's parents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104003 I wrote: > > Also, from a humane point of view, I also personally don't like > > to see people getting upset over issues like Hermione's > > perceived bad relationship with her parents, mainly because there > > have been some very sad and upsetting events thus far in the > > series, with more to come. Del replied: > I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean exactly. Could you try > again please, it seems interesting ? And now I'm afraid you won't find my answer as interesting as you hope. ;-) I think there is a lot of sadness in this book, from last chapters of GOF to a great deal of OotP, and in the latter, especially the loss of Sirius and Harry's growing realization that he's going to have to stop fooling around because he's got a great task before him. With all of that as the context, and the knowledge that others are going to die and that horrible scenes are going to be shown to him (and therefore to us as readers) beginning with the death of his parents and ending with who knows what, I think reading these texts with so highly attuned to personal areas of interest may obscure the power of what JKR intends to do. (Also, it may really disappoint folks because issues they feel should be addressed and think will be addressed may never be examined.) It'll be interesting to see how it all plays out! jujube, who is now only 30 digests behind From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 01:43:52 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 01:43:52 -0000 Subject: Some questions/comments about OOTP (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104004 Barbara asked: > >>> How does Dumbledore know exactly what is happening on Privet > Drive and how is he able to send a Howler minutes after Vernon tells > Harry to get out? <<< > Bren responded: > Perhaps Mrs Figg alerted D-Dore after the Dementor's attack and DD > saw it coming? Or maybe another canon for DD time-traveling? (I > doubt it though) Carol adds: IIRC, Mrs. Figg sent Mundungus Fletcher to tell Dumbledore about the Dementors and Harry's Patronus. Presumably Dung apparated to Hogsmeade and ran the rest of the way (or used one of the secret entrances). Dumbledore would anticipate Harry's actions (and their consequences) and attempt to prevent him from leaving the house (as well as preventing his immediate expulsion). Then again, we're told that the members of the Order have other ways of communicating than Floo powder, etc.--the WW equivalent of a cell phone? Carol From davyval at comcast.net Fri Jul 2 01:41:57 2004 From: davyval at comcast.net (dnp1234) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 01:41:57 -0000 Subject: Lily died before James? Scans of Relevant Pages. In-Reply-To: <20040701064707.99348.qmail@web12301.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104005 JK Rowling discusses this on her website. She says Lily should have come out of the wand 1st, thus she would be the last to die. "davyval" From townsend3 at earthlink.net Fri Jul 2 01:51:23 2004 From: townsend3 at earthlink.net (Tara) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 01:51:23 -0000 Subject: Book 7 ending (was Analyzing Plot Twists: Simplify, Simplify!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104006 vmonte wrote: Book 7 ends with: the scar. I bet it's about DD's scar. Tara responds: My belief is that after defeating Voldemort, Harry's scar will disappear (allowing him a normal life at last?), so the last sentence of the book could be something like: "...and there was no trace left of the scar." Dumbledore's scar is a map of the London Underground; interesting, but not important enough to make it the last word in the series. What do y'all think, too early to discuss Book 7? Tara From snow15145 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 01:55:20 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 01:55:20 -0000 Subject: DD=H B P Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104007 DD=H B P=Dudley Dursley is the Half Blood Prince Support for Dudley being the H B P. "What we know" about Petunia to this point: (a) Petunia is upset that her sister is a witch Why? (b) Petunia knows quite a bit about the WW How? (c) Petunia took Harry in as a baby Why? (d) Petunia has spoken with DD in the past When? (e) Petunia's surgically clean kitchen is mentioned numerous times You don't have to hit me over the head JKR I get it you want us to see the very, very clean kitchen Why? Using "what we know" I set forth the following theory: Petunia is a mere squib that becomes quite jealous of her precious sister, whom their parents are so happy with, who is actually a witch. Petunia becomes as hateful towards the WW as to her sister because of her jealousy. Petunia decides to get as far away from the WW as possible and finds the perfect man who also detests these types of people but for a different reason. All the same they are both happy to share in this common resentment. Petunia being a squib can learn to do some magic, via her miraculously clean kitchen. Petunia has a son whom she never even thinks to be in danger of becoming magical until she receives a letter from DD about taking Harry when he's dropped off at her doorstep. Petunia is under no obligation to take Harry so something pretty convincing was in that letter from DD. What convinced Petunia to take Harry unless DD included a little bribe per se along with the information that the school's quill has indeed registered her son as magical at his birth. DD informs Petunia what triggers a small child's magical talents and ensures her that if she takes precautions and accepts Harry, that Dudley will be overlooked when sending out the Hogwarts letters. Petunia agrees to take Harry. Let's move on to Dudley the pampered little prince of the half squib blood half muggle blood Dursley couple. What do we know about Dudley? (a) Dudley is exceptionally spoiled (b) Dudley is beyond spoiled when he gets upset (c) Dudley had his eyes covered during a Dementor attack (d) Dudley even blinded describes better than Mrs. Figg the details of a Dementor attack (e) Oh and Dudley's aunt is a witch Skipping over the obvious treatment of Dudley and the quite likely reasons as to why, I will move on to what Dudley could have seen when the Dementor attacked. The first thing that comes to mind would be what happened to him at the zoo. It isn't as much what happened to him but what he thought happened to him and why. The second would be Hagrid bursting into the hut on the sea, which startled Dudley awake and asking where is the cannon, along with more magic that directly attacks him giving him a pig's tail. The third would be the bit of magical candy that was so graciously left for Dudley by the twins that again caused Dudley some definite nightmares. The last and best would be little Dudley walking in to see mommy cleaning the kitchen magically. This last one about mommy cleaning the kitchen along with Harry threatening Dudley right before the attack by the dementors is my favorite. Dudley is as scarred if not more so than his father of magic. Just look at all the reactions from Dudley about magic throughout the books but add to that Dudley's latent fear that his own mother may be magical. What would be more ironic than to have the very person that is afraid of magic become magical? From pandrea100 at hotmail.com Fri Jul 2 01:59:15 2004 From: pandrea100 at hotmail.com (pandrea100) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 01:59:15 -0000 Subject: Will Harry save Draco one day? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104008 This is a question I've wondered about off and on. Certainly, in fending off Voldemort, Harry has saved 'everyone' (you could argue), but what if there was a situation where Draco was in direct danger and Harry stepped in to save him? There was that encounter they had in the Forest in PS/SS (hooded figure drinking unicorn's blood), but Draco actually ran away that time. Anyone think this is a storyline likely to come up? If such a thing happened, would Draco change his mind about Harry? Or would he, like Snape, just hate him even more? If in some ways Harry is in danger of repeating Sirius'/James' flaws, is Draco going the way of Snape? Pandrea From chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 02:35:24 2004 From: chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com (alora) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 02:35:24 -0000 Subject: DD=H B P In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104009 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snow15145" wrote: > DD=H B P=Dudley Dursley is the Half Blood Prince > > Support for Dudley being the H B P. > > "What we know" about Petunia to this point: > (a) Petunia is upset that her sister is a witch Why? > (b) Petunia knows quite a bit about the WW How? > (c) Petunia took Harry in as a baby Why? > (d) Petunia has spoken with DD in the past When? > (e) Petunia's surgically clean kitchen is mentioned numerous > times You don't have to hit me over the head JKR I get it you want > us to see the very, very clean kitchen Why? > > Using "what we know" I set forth the following theory: > > Petunia is a mere squib that becomes quite jealous of her precious > sister, whom their parents are so happy with, who is actually a > witch. Petunia becomes as hateful towards the WW as to her sister > because of her jealousy. Petunia decides to get as far away from the > WW as possible and finds the perfect man who also detests these types > of people but for a different reason. All the same they are both > happy to share in this common resentment. Petunia being a squib can > learn to do some magic, via her miraculously clean kitchen. Petunia > has a son whom she never even thinks to be in danger of becoming > magical until she receives a letter from DD about taking Harry when > he's dropped off at her doorstep. Petunia is under no obligation to > take Harry so something pretty convincing was in that letter from DD. > What convinced Petunia to take Harry unless DD included a little > bribe per se along with the information that the school's quill has > indeed registered her son as magical at his birth. DD informs Petunia > what triggers a small child's magical talents and ensures her that if > she takes precautions and accepts Harry, that Dudley will be > overlooked when sending out the Hogwarts letters. Petunia agrees to > take Harry. > > Let's move on to Dudley the pampered little prince of the half squib > blood half muggle blood Dursley couple. What do we know about Dudley? > (a) Dudley is exceptionally spoiled > (b) Dudley is beyond spoiled when he gets upset > (c) Dudley had his eyes covered during a Dementor attack > (d) Dudley even blinded describes better than Mrs. Figg the > details of a Dementor attack > (e) Oh and Dudley's aunt is a witch > > Skipping over the obvious treatment of Dudley and the quite likely > reasons as to why, I will move on to what Dudley could have seen when > the Dementor attacked. The first thing that comes to mind would be > what happened to him at the zoo. It isn't as much what happened to > him but what he thought happened to him and why. The second would be > Hagrid bursting into the hut on the sea, which startled Dudley awake > and asking where is the cannon, along with more magic that directly > attacks him giving him a pig's tail. The third would be the bit of > magical candy that was so graciously left for Dudley by the twins > that again caused Dudley some definite nightmares. The last and best > would be little Dudley walking in to see mommy cleaning the kitchen > magically. This last one about mommy cleaning the kitchen along with > Harry threatening Dudley right before the attack by the dementors is > my favorite. Dudley is as scarred if not more so than his father of > magic. Just look at all the reactions from Dudley about magic > throughout the books but add to that Dudley's latent fear that his > own mother may be magical. > > What would be more ironic than to have the very person that is afraid > of magic become magical? Very interesting theory, and I like it. But how does the "Prince" part fit into all this? How would Dudley come into that title? I guess what I am fishing for is WHY HIM? And if he is magical, I would think that at some point, somewhere, someone would tick him off enough to do a bit of magic. Maybe we just haven't seen that part of the story, I don't know. It's a good idea, I just don't see how....but then, I am no good at theorizing! I do like the idea, though Alora :) From Batchevra at aol.com Fri Jul 2 03:20:18 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 23:20:18 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Marauder's Map: Selective Against Marauders? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104010 In a message dated 7/1/04 9:41:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, val_gal_05 at yahoo.ca writes: >Hey, while we're on the topic, does it say/does anyone know when the Map was made? I REALLY need to reread the books again... Val< It was probably made in the Marauder's 5th year or after. They could get the dynamics of Hogwarts and its grounds and passages more easily after they became animagi. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 03:31:37 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 03:31:37 -0000 Subject: Peter Pettigrew not a "real" DE?: (Was: The Map and the War) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104011 Chelle wrote: > > I kind of have a theory, but it may be a little quirky. > Peter isn't 'really' a Death Eater. He wears a robe, but has never > donned a mask. He told about the Potters, but he told Voldie > reluctantly. I think he's a Voldie groupie only because he has no > where else to go. He may have even been under the imperius when he > blew up all those people as to burn all his bridges. > The Most Devoted Servant line has been used several times. I dont > think it pertains to a single person, but whoever is in favor with > Voldie at the time. (Like the 'favorite kid' most parents seem to have > that switches depending on who has not annoyed them lately.) > I don't think Peter has told Voldie a thing unless directly asked. Carol: Two problems with that theory. First, he has the Dark Mark on his arm (LV used it to summon he other DEs to the graveyard). Second, he has no qualms about casting an AK to kill Cedric, which suggests that he has used Unforgiveable Curses before (not counting whatever he used to tear up the street and kill twelve Muggles). I do think he started out reluctantly leaking information, providing the identities of Order members but holding back the information about the Marauders being animagi--not out of loyalty to his friends but because it was *his* big secret as well. (LV knows when people are *lying* but withholding information that hasn't been requested is a different matter.) Or maybe Voldemort *did* know it but didn't reveal it to the DEs for reasons of his own. As someone (Neri?) said some time ago, Voldemort seems to provide info to his DEs on a "need to know" basis. Knowledge is power, and LV isn't going to share his knowledge unless he has a reason for doing so. So just because he knows something doesn't mean that all or even some of the DEs know it. (Karkaroff, for example, knew the names of some but not all of his fellow DEs. If he didn't know who those people were, he certainly didn't know what jobs they were performing for Voldemort. Knowing that certain Order members and a fellow DE/spy were animagi could fall into the same category of information they didn't need to know at that time.) In any case, it's clear that Bellatrix and company didn't know that PP could turn into a rat or he could never have pulled off his supposed murder by Sirius. It's equally clear that both Bellatrix and Lucius Malfoy *did* know that Sirius was an animagus in OoP. I'm guessing that PP revealed his secret when he first returned to Voldemort *in rat form* and then Voldemort revealed it to a few select DEs. But back to my original point: whether Peter was an actual DE or "just" a spy and a traitor before Godric's Hollow, he was certainly a real DE in GoF. Carol Carol From suzchiles at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 03:38:12 2004 From: suzchiles at yahoo.com (Suzanne Chiles) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 20:38:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Paying for Hogwarts Message-ID: <20040702033812.38636.qmail@web40612.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104012 If there were tuition to Hogwarts (and I'm convinced there isn't any) and if the Weasleys were getting needs-based assistance, I'm pretty sure we would have heard about it, either from Ron's own mouth or from Draco's taunts. Suzanne Tay said > I don't think that Hogwarts has a Tuition other then the books and a > wand and robes, ect ect ect. I think that the school perhaps runs off > donations from wealthy families such as the Malfoy's... or if there > is a tuition perhaps there is a scholarship program for cases like > the Weasleys. > > ...tay __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From suzchiles at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 03:38:20 2004 From: suzchiles at yahoo.com (Suzanne Chiles) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 20:38:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The word "prince" in OotP Message-ID: <20040702033820.37852.qmail@web40609.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104013 Inkling quotes and notes: > "Five years ago then," Dumbledore continued..."You arrived at > Hogwarts, neither as happy or well nourished as I would have > liked, perhaps, but alive and healthy. You were not a pampered > little prince, but as normal a boy as I could have hoped under the > circumstances..." > > Of course, "prince" may just be a figure of speech in this > instance, but it does occur in a very crucial discussion about > Harry's past. Possibly the choice of words was more than just > coincidence? We know that Harry is not the HBP, but maybe -- > just maybe -- this supports the theory that James came from > some kind of royalty? Anyway just thought I'd throw it into the pot. But in that context, who else could be pampered little prince be but Dudley? Suzanne __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 03:43:33 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 03:43:33 -0000 Subject: Ron as Seer? Was: Re: What if the brain that attacked Ron was Nicolas Flamel's? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104015 Antosha wrote: > > Actually, I think it likely that Cassandra will actually be one of Voldemort's targets in the > next book--since she is the least protected of the two people present at the Prophecy's > uttering... though of course she wouldn't remember a word. So I can see Ron saying that, > indeed, and I can see us all reacting as you did, with laughter... at first. > > Though what Ron and Harry would be doing in Divination after OWLs I have NO idea. Carol: I think you mean Sibyll (or Sybill, depending on whether you have the American or British edition of the books). Cassandra was her great great grandmother (or some such relation) and is presumably dead. Also Sybill is no longer teaching Divination (though she still lives at Hogwarts, presumably for her own protection because she certainly would, as you say, be one of Voldemort's targets if she were to leave). After Umbridge fired her, Dumbledore hired Firenze the Centaur (another displaced and protected "person") to take her place. Carol From ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 03:50:26 2004 From: ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com (A.J.) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 03:50:26 -0000 Subject: Crazy, longshot theory but it's mine re book 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104016 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "koinonia02" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jotwo2003" > wrote: > > But Dobby's eyes were wide and he seemed to be trying to give > >Harry a hint. Harry, however, was completely at sea. > > > 'He hasn't got a brother, has he?' > > All I can really say is I agree that statement means something. > > *He hasn't got a brother, has he* > > ~ Tom - Male > ~ Greek Form of THOMAS > ~ A twin Here's my chance to remind folks that the twins (reared in each others' roles) in the Mark Twain story* are named Tom and Chamber. >:) (well, the main twins. There are more twins! The main twins are traised rather like Dudley and Harry, one pampered and one servant. story-- Tragedy of Puddin'head Wilson.) aj From snow15145 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 03:50:36 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 03:50:36 -0000 Subject: DD=H B P In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104017 > Very interesting theory, and I like it. But how does the "Prince" > part fit into all this? How would Dudley come into that title? I > guess what I am fishing for is WHY HIM? And if he is magical, I > would think that at some point, somewhere, someone would tick him > off enough to do a bit of magic. Maybe we just haven't seen that > part of the story, I don't know. It's a good idea, I just don't see > how....but then, I am no good at theorizing! I do like the idea, > though > > Alora :) Snow: I'm glad you like the idea too. To answer your question about the Prince part of the title, I see Dudley as the "Pampered Prince". I don't think that any part of the title is meant to be literally taken, as in Prince meaning royalty. Also take note that Half and Blood are not hyphened or as one word. Each word in the title has its own meaning not the suggested meaning. From jhnbwmn at hotmail.com Fri Jul 2 03:57:21 2004 From: jhnbwmn at hotmail.com (johnbowman19) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 03:57:21 -0000 Subject: DD(dumbledore)=H B P In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104018 haha I thought you meant DD as Dumbledore. And i think its works better with Dumbledore because he is the best at magic in the whole seris. He could be the descendent of Godric Griffendor, which is why he tamed fawkes, and we know little to nothing about DD before HP was born. From Batchevra at aol.com Fri Jul 2 04:04:21 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 00:04:21 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius revisited Message-ID: <19e.2633a7a3.2e1638c5@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104019 In a message dated 7/1/04 12:49:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com writes: >Kneasy: It's my opinion that he wasn't thinking about Voldy, he was thinking of himself, how clever he was. Playing the brave friend, leading Voldy on a dance. Stupid. If, of course, things were as he says they were. There is no confirmation that James knew the Secret Keeper had changed. DD certainly didn't, he says so. And if anyone should have been informed, it was DD. So why didn't Sirius tell him? Being clever again, or covering his tracks?< Page 153 POA UK version, in the chapter of the Marauder's Map. McGonagall is speaking in the Three Broomsticks. "...and yet, Dumbledore remained worried. I remember him offering to be the Potters' Secret-Keeper himself.' 'He suspected Black?' gasped Madam Rosemerta. 'He was sure that somebody close to the Potters had been keeping You-Know-Who informed of their movements,' said Professor McGonagall darkly.'Indeed, he had suspected for some time that someone on our side had turned traitor and was passing a lot of information to You-Know-Who." Sirius probably thought that the person was close to Dumbledore so he thought that if the secret was between James, Lily, Peter and himself, they would have been safe. But what Sirius didn't know was that Peter was the traitor. If McGonagall knew that Dumbledore was the SK for the Potters than more people knew about it, Sirius also knew that the less people in the know, the less chance of being known by the enemy, only the enemy was Peter and that caused the deaths of James and Lily. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Batchevra at aol.com Fri Jul 2 04:36:22 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 00:36:22 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's parents Message-ID: <146.2d47675c.2e164046@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104020 In a message dated 7/1/04 2:16:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, delwynmarch at yahoo.com writes: >And as for those scenes that we get to see and Harry doesn't, they are extremely rare. There's the first chapter of SS/PS, and... er... well that's pretty much it, if I'm not mistaken. Even the first chapter of GoF is actually seen by Harry, in a dream.< There is more in the first book that we get a glimpse of a different perspective. The first is when Harry's broom is being jinxed by Quirrell, there is one part that shows the perspective of Ron, Hagrid or Neville. I can't decide which one yet. The second one is when Snape is refereeing the Quidditich match and we get the perspective of either Ron or Neville, Ron tells Harry later of the fight between Draco, Crabbe and Goyle. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 04:44:23 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 04:44:23 -0000 Subject: Pensieve = Security Camera? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104021 vmonte wrote: I wrote a few months ago that I beleived that the kids may even put some of their own memories to view in an unobjective way. They may be able to glean information that way. > > > Alice responded: > But this would mean that having a Pensieve would be like having 360 > vision and senses all the time - albeit only in retrospect. Wouldn't > people USE that a lot more? Just one idea: the examiner could look > into his Pensieve after the exam and check whether anybody had been > cheating, talking etc. > I hate it when JKRs ideas seem be logically faulty, we must find > another solution... Carol: As far as we can tell from the evidence presented, a Pensieve is not a tool that just anyone can use. True, once a memory has been removed, anyone (even a kid like Harry) can enter it and experience it--but not from the viewpoint of the person whose memory it is. Instead, he enters into the surroundings, seeing, hearing, even feeling objects (such as the bench or chair he sits on in Dumbledore's memories). In other words, it's an objective record of what happened, not a subjective rendering of the event as it was perceived by the person from whose mind it came. To return to my point--the only two people we've seen place memories in the Pensieve are Snape and Dumbledore, both of them skilled in Occlumency. Not just any person can place his wand to his head and remove a memory. And we've yet to see anyone remove a memory from a head other than his own. Occlumency seems to be a rare skill and Pensieves appear to be even rarer. We've seen only one so far (Snape borrowed Dumbledore's for the occasion). The memories aren't stored there. When the Occlumens has finished studying them--objectively, in relation to each other, uncontaminated by the subjective context of his own mind--or when he no longer needs to conceal them from another person--he returns them to his own mind. IMO, the kids can't use the Pensieve to study their own memories because not being Occlumens (whatever the plural is), they can't remove the memories from their own minds. Nor would an examiner or teacher be able to do so, unless, like Snape, he or she happened to be an Occlumens. As I've said before, the fact that Harry can enter the memory and *see the person whose memory it is from the outside without entering into that person's thoughts or feeling his emotions* indicates that the Pensieve records *what really happened* uncontaminated by subjectivity or the limitations of a particular person's perception. That is what makes it valuable. But it can only be rightly used by a trained wizard who knows what he's doing, a "superb occlumens" like Dumbledore or Snape--not by kids or even by most grown wizards. If we see more of the Pensieve, and I hope we do, most likely the memories we see will be Snape's or Dumbledore's. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 04:56:30 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 04:56:30 -0000 Subject: The Dursleys at Risk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104022 Ms Mo Me wrote: I was thinking that a prime target for Voldemort would be the Dursleys. The reason Harry has the lasting protection is because he spends time with > his blood related family. So, if Voldemort figures this out, wouldn't his first aim be to kill the Dursleys?> jenny from ravenclaw responded: I am sure if Voldemort had access to the Dursleys, he would have disposed of them quite a while ago. If someone is acting as Secret Keeper for the Dursleys (of which they'd have no idea), he'd never be able to find them no matter how long and hard he looked. > > I also agree with those who say that the Dursleys are protected by the same magic that protects Harry. We also know that their home is watched quite closely by the Wizarding community. > > -- Carol: If the Dursley home were protected by a Fidelius Charm, nobody would be able to find it, not even Muggles like Aunt Marge, and the Weasleys could never have entered it through the fireplace. But how would Voldemort know about the Dursleys, who are Muggles, after all? I think that's one reason Dumbledore placed Harry with them (the charm that protects him as long as he's with his mother's blood kindred is of course the other reason, but DD placed that charm himself). If Harry had been raised by a kindly wizard family, the secret would have been much harder to keep, and he'd have had to remain in hiding for his first eleven years. Placing him with the Dursleys, with no knowledge of his own background, amounts to hiding him in plain sight where Voldemort would never think to look. I do think that the protective charm extends to the Dursleys--otherwise Petunia would never have taken Harry in--but they're not watched by the whole wizarding community, only by members of the Order and to some extent, the MoM, on the lookout for underage magic in Muggle communities (and particularly the house where Harry lives, or so it seems). Carol From Meliss9900 at aol.com Fri Jul 2 04:58:07 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 00:58:07 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's potions O.W.L - Outstanding-NOT. Message-ID: <20.2d5907ae.2e16455f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104023 In a message dated 07/01/2004 8:29:37 AM Central Daylight Time, willsonkmom at msn.com writes: > If the outcome is strictly whether the potion works then there are > only two grade choices. (Passing or failing) I would much rather > have a test where I have lots of questions, than a test where I only > have one question. > I rather suspect that's where the written portion of the test figures into the grade. Which brings up another question. If you get an O on the practical but only an A on the written would that average to an E? Or vice versa > Actually, we don't know how this portion of the test is conducted. > Or how it's graded so I guess it's all guess work on our part anyway. > :-) > Potioncat > > Yeah but its fun to guess maybe she'll even answer our questions one day Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From shymetaphor at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 02:39:48 2004 From: shymetaphor at yahoo.com (Laura) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 02:39:48 -0000 Subject: HBP MUST have appeared in COS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104024 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: > What about Hagrid? He was a major part of CoS, he's a half-blood, > and we don't know where his mother stood in giant society. In the > OotP Threads a few weeks back people were complaining about why the > giants were even included. Could Hagrid the Giant Prince...er, Price > Giant have anything to do with that? Yes, I speculated this briefly a couple days ago. It's really starting to make more sense to me... But then again the argument for Lupin (if the character doesn't have to be in CoS) works as well. I'm rereading Book 5 and Umbridge refers to him as "half-breed", but that could refer to Hagrid as well... "Laura" From otterific at dslextreme.com Fri Jul 2 02:52:33 2004 From: otterific at dslextreme.com (portraitsbypeg) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 02:52:33 -0000 Subject: Nose Biting Patronus / Zonko's vs Weasley's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104025 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sevenhundredandthirteen" wrote: > > Still, I think that James owning/being some way related to Zonko's > joke shop is a brilliant twist- it would make Weasley's Wizard > Wheezes have considerable relevance beyond a good laugh. Harry could > find out his father is related to Zonko's because of the twin's > inside information on rival joke shops. Also, didn't Lupin say something like "this looks like a Zonko's product" to Snape when Snape asked him about the Marauder's Map in POA? Why would Lupin say that, specifically, when he knows that James was involved in the making of the map. So, there's another hint that there's a connection between James and Zonko's. "Peg" From tekayjaye at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 04:18:21 2004 From: tekayjaye at yahoo.com (Tekay Jaye) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 21:18:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] DD=H B P In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040702041821.16978.qmail@web90007.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104026 snow15145 wrote: DD==H B P==Dudley Dursley is the Half Blood Prince Support for Dudley being the H B P. "What we know" about Petunia to this point: Using "what we know" I set forth the following theory: Petunia is a mere squib that becomes quite jealous of her precious sister, whom their parents are so happy with, who is actually a witch. tekay: This is very interesting. But Petunia can't be a Squib. Harry sees Snape call Lily a "mudblood" in Snape's memory in the Pensieve. Since Lily is a mudblood, both her parents must be muggles. Two muggles cannot produce a Squib; they either produce a muggle or a witch/wizard. I posit that all this (except Petunia being a Squib) is possible if we allow for the idea that magic can skip generations. Since Lily is a witch, Dudley, as her nephew, could possess magical ability. Petunia's clean kitchen? She's obsessive about a clean kitchen, maybe. It's not unheard of. tekay --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sirius_padfoot85 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 04:41:30 2004 From: sirius_padfoot85 at yahoo.com (Heather Lynn) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 04:41:30 -0000 Subject: Book 7 ending (was Analyzing Plot Twists: Simplify, Simplify!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104027 Tara said: > What do y'all think, too early to discuss Book 7? Nah- it's never too early to start speculating! Tara: > My belief is that after defeating Voldemort, Harry's scar will > disappear (allowing him a normal life at last?), so the last sentence > of the book could be something like: "...and there was no trace left > of the scar." I've always thought the same thing; that it would end with the disappearance of the scar. But that said, I sort of hope he keeps it. It's part of who he is, in a symbolic sense, because people are shaped by their experiences- both good and bad. (For instance, even though I wish I hadn't fallen down the stairs at the park, I'm still a little proud of my own forehead scar- which is unfortunately not lightning bolt shaped :>) And I think Dumbledore feels the same way- remember that when McGonagall asks him in the first chapter of SS if he can do anything about the scar, Dumbledore says, "Even if I could, I wouldn't. Scars can come in handy." (Which may just force me to do a separate post theorizing how, exactly, Harry's scar might come in handy in the future, because now that I think about it, that was an interesting thing for Dumbledore to say.) And I also just noticed while looking up that quote that Dumbledore says a few lines above it, "He'll have that scar forever." So maybe that lightning bolt is here to stay after all :) -Roo, who for years has envisioned a climactic final battle in the tunnels of the London Underground with only Dumbledore's knee for guidance From aandj at labyrinth.net.au Fri Jul 2 05:22:18 2004 From: aandj at labyrinth.net.au (Jocelyn Grunow) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 16:22:18 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Dursleys at Risk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104028 on 2/7/2004 3:56 PM, justcarol67 at justcarol67 at yahoo.com wrote: > I think that's one reason Dumbledore placed Harry with them > (the charm that protects him as long as he's with his mother's blood > kindred is of course the other reason, but DD placed that charm > himself). I don't think that Dumbledore PLACED the charm - I think it is a side-effect of the original magic that protected Harry. (Rather like the 'deep magic' of the Narnia series, but let's not go there. I have just deleted several paragraphs and you should all be grateful!) Jocelyn From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 05:31:42 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 05:31:42 -0000 Subject: Dudley the prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104029 Gina asked: Has anyone ever mentioned Dudley? His birthday is only a day or so away from Harry's isn't it? > Phil responded: > No, Dudley is considerably older than Harry: he's mobile at the very > least. >> "And they've got this son--I saw him kicking his mother all the way up the street, screaming for sweets." > > "... he slept on ... not knowing ... that he would spend the next few weeks being prodded and pinched by his cousin Dudley ..." > > I read this as indicating that Dudley is at least crawling and maybe a toddler. > > On the other hand he cannot be that much older than Harry since they > are both transferring from primary to secondary school at the same > time, so he must be within the same year group. Carol: Actually, Dudley is about one month older than Harry--born, as far as I can tell, in June of the same year that Harry was born. As you say, they enter secondary school at the same time, and the scene where Dudley is screaming because he only received about 35 presents appears to take place in June, about a month before Harry's birthday on July 31. we know that Harry was fifteen months old when he was placed on the Dursleys' doorstep (it's October 31, three months to the day after his first birthday). That would make Dudley a toddler of sixteen months at the time--old enough to walk, scream "Sweets! Sweets! Sweets!" and even to kick his mother if he were precocious in the spoiled brat department. Harry could no doubt walk (toddle) as well, but we see him wrapped snugly in a blanket because it's a cold night and Hagrid, Dumbledore, and McGonagall don't want him to wake up and toddle off somewhere in the neighborhood during the night. (No doubt Mrs. Figg and the cats were keeping an eye on baby Harry after DD et al. left, but the snugly wrapped blanket, IMO, is an extra precaution.) In any case, Dudley (a Muggle) wouldn't appear in a WW prophecy, especially considering that his parents hadn't defied Voldemort three times. (Vernon doesn't even know of LV's existence.) Carol From davyval at comcast.net Fri Jul 2 02:01:11 2004 From: davyval at comcast.net (dnp1234) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 02:01:11 -0000 Subject: DD=H B P In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104030 I don't think Dudley would be worthy of a part of the title of the book. JK Rowling makes it pretty clear that Lily Potter was muggle born. If this is the case then Dudley would not be a half blood. I really hope Dudley does not play a bigger role in the last 2 books. "davyval" From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 05:50:22 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 05:50:22 -0000 Subject: Getting to Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <20040625162452.63596.qmail@web25405.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104031 Shannon wrote: The thought that all students would have to go to Diagon Alley to get their school supplies anyway, since even in Hogsmeade I do not remember them saying anything about stores that carry the supplies the kids would need, would make it seem reasonable that they travel from Kings Cross to school. I mean it's not like in the WW they have to travel as muggles do, they can apparate and travel by floo and other ways to get to the area. Carol responds: What I wonder is how the pureblood kids get their trunks to and from King's Cross Station. Even if they're old enough to apparate, you can't apparate with a trunk (and in many cases, a pet as well). I don't think you can get to King's Cross using Floo Powder, either, as there aren't any fireplaces there even if you could "Floo" with a trunk. And you can't ride a broom in broad daylight with a trunk hanging from it without calling attention to yourself (the escort at the beginning of OoP strikes me as one of the most improbable scenes in any of the books). The Muggleborns and half bloods could travel by car or taxi and would be dressed like Muggles to blend in, but Alfonso Cuaron to the contrary, can you imagine Draco and friends in jeans and a jumper and Lucius or Narcissa in Muggle clothes and driving, say, a Jaguar? Or the Malfoys subjecting themselves to the indignity of taking the Knight Bus (in the daytime)? Yes, the Malfoys et al. can get to *Diagon Alley* by Floo powder if they don't have a trunk to worry about, but how do they get to and from King's Cross? For that matter, how do the Weasleys usually do it when they don't rent a taxi or have the use of Fudge's car? Carol, who wonders if she's forgetting something or overlooking the obvious From tinkerbell634 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 05:58:26 2004 From: tinkerbell634 at yahoo.com (I Am Lord Moldy Vat) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 05:58:26 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Thestrals In-Reply-To: <008d01c45fd2$ee6cdfe0$c800000a@crouton> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104033 becky: Just a general point here as I reread OotP... Neville's grandfather was killed in front of him. Many signs point to Neville's memory having been tampered with-- why would this memory be left? Just musing, really... Christina: I have wondered this also, but I also wonder how his grandfather died? Could he have died in VMW1 when his parents were attacked? Pixie: Who says his grandfather was killed? I always pictured him dying in bed, from natural causes. There would be no need to modify a memory like that. ~Pixie (of the superhappyfun variety!) From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 06:27:38 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 06:27:38 -0000 Subject: The Floo Network and the Gryfindor Common Room In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104034 Bren wrote: Perhaps there are all sorts of charms/old magic protection which create a barrier in front of the Gryffindor fireplace. You can see someone's head *in* the fire since it's part of Floo network, but once you try to get into the commonroom through fireplace, you might not be able to. After all, we don't see Sirius trying to hug Harry in fire or even attempting to make any physical fatherly-contact. Beth responded: I've noticed, though, that we never see anyone else use the fireplaces at Hogwarts. Molly doesn't use it to yell at or visit the kids, Dumbledore sends Bill with the message for Arthur instead of of flooing, etc. I suspect that in general the fireplaces at Hogwarts, or at least the student area ones, don't work. However, Sirius is aware of some loophole from his marauder days that lets him slip by. Carol notes: But notice that Snape summons Lupin to his office using Floo powder and in PoA Umbridge reaches into the Gryffindor fireplace to grab Sirius by the hair, presumably intending to pull his entire body into the fireplace in OoP. Also she says that she's closed off (or is monitoring?) all the fireplaces in Hogwarts except her own, implying that they are or were connected to the Floo Network. Probably the only reason Sirius didn't use the Floo Network to enter Hogwarts in PoA is that he didn't have access to a fireplace. (I don't think the Shrieking Shack has one and if it does, it's not connected to the Floo network.) Carol, who thinks that Umbridge unwittingly did Hogwarts a favor by exposing a weak point in the defense system (not that I credit her with good intentions!) From paul_terzis at yahoo.gr Fri Jul 2 06:31:08 2004 From: paul_terzis at yahoo.gr (paul_terzis) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 06:31:08 -0000 Subject: Who gets the Imperius curse? And when? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104035 > Eleanor wrote: > That could be very, very interesting. But how does it work with the > end of GoF? Does the curse break when the Dementor Kisses Crouch Jr? > Or can someone else take over? Or maybe the fake Moody's > instructions ("act normal until I say otherwise") are still in effect, > in which case nobody would ever be able to tell the difference, but > the poor cursed person would be drifting around in a dreamy daze for > the rest of their life? > Crouch Jr. complete agenda is unknown. Maybe LV ordered him to create an army of latent operatives among the student body of Hogwarts and even the teachers, who all are awaiting the calling of the LV in order to become active. I don't know what kind of trigger LV will use. The only thing we know for sure is that one of the main objectives of LV is to gather troops for the war. Do you think better revenge than using the sons and the daughters of your enemies for your cause? Cheers, Paul From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 07:41:17 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 07:41:17 -0000 Subject: Getting to Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104036 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Shannon wrote: > The thought that all students would have to go to > Diagon Alley to get their school supplies anyway, > since even in Hogsmeade I do not remember them > saying anything about stores that carry the supplies the > kids would need, would make it seem reasonable that > they travel from Kings Cross to school. I mean it's > not like in the WW they have to travel as muggles > do, they can apparate and travel by floo and other ways > to get to the area. > Carol responds: > > What I wonder is how the pureblood kids get their trunks to and from > King's Cross Station. ... there aren't any fireplaces there even if > you could "Floo" with a trunk. And you can't ride a broom in broad > daylight ... The Muggleborns and half bloods could travel by car or > taxi and would be dressed like Muggles to blend in, ... Or the > Malfoys subjecting themselves to the indignity of taking the Knight > Bus...? > > Carol, Asian_lovr2: Well, the one thing you are forgetting is that in Goblet of Fire, George stands Harry's trunk on end, picks it up, steps into the Dursley's fireplace, and Floos back to the Burrow. So, you can Floo with anything you can pick up. Although, it must have been difficult holding on to the trunk while he as spinning around in the Floo Network, and I suspect the other people in the Floo Stream didn't appreciate bumping into a trunk as they traveled on their merry way. For the most part, I think this is one of those things we aren't suppose to think about. This is fiction, so some things are just left to the imagination, and have no real-world explanation. However, if we apply our imaginations, let's see what we can come up with. First, in the real world, London is a very old and historic city, it's not that uncommon to see someone in a period costume walking about the city. Plus, I'm lead to believe the London is also a very very diversified city. You see an amazing cross-section of people; rude boys, punks, rockers, Mods, ravers, high fashion, low fashion, weirdos of all shapes and sizes. While some of my references are dated, the point is that in a big diverse city like London, it's very common to see unusual people lurking about. Consequently, I think a robed wizard would be far less out of place in London than they would in say New York, or Minneapolis. Travel gets a little more complicated. We know that people can certainly get to Diagon Alley and the Leaky Cauldron. Charring Cross Road is slighly North of Central London, and King's Cross Station is a ways north and slightly east of Charring Cross Road/Oxford. Using www.map24.com I measured the street distance from Charring Cross Rd and Oxford St to King's Cross Station (north on Trottingham Court Rd and east on Euston Rd), at about 2.25km or about 1.4 miles. From the south (farthest) end of Charring Cross Rd along the same route, the distance is about 3km or about 1.9 miles. Straight line distance, Charring Cross Rd/Oxford to Kings Cross = 1.8km (1.1miles), or Leicester Square (south Charring Cross) to Kings Cross = 2.5km (1.6miles). This all ignores one way streets. I'm pretty sure Charring Cross Rd is a one-way heading south, but like I said, I'm ignoring that for the moment. The point is that from the Leaky Cauldron or Diagon Alley to Kings Cross Station is not very far; 1.5 to 2 miles depending on where The Leaky Cauldron actually is. I'm guessing most wizards could endure a taxi ride for that short distance. But that brings up the question, how do they get a cab? Could a whole crowd of student wizards hail a fleet of taxis from outside the Leaky Cauldron? Could they telephone for a cab? Where would they get a telephone? After all that analysis, truth be told, I'm drawing a blank, and that's a very rare occurance. I could suggest horse drawn carriages, that which we here in the USA call 'handsome cabs'. But, again, you would need a fleet of them. Perhaps there is a combined muggle/magic or muggle-born's business near Kings Cross that allows witches and wizards to use their fireplace. I've often speculated that there are a lot of mixed marriage wizard/muggle businesses that act as go betweens for the muggle and magic world. That's probably the best I can come up with. The idea that near Kings Cross is a muggle who is married to a magic person who runs a tea shop or other business, and the wizard world pays them a small fee for access to their fireplace. Can anybody come up with anything better? Of course, I suspect there is no real answer, but I'm still interested in what other might speculate as a solution. Steve/asian_lovr2 From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 07:42:33 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 07:42:33 -0000 Subject: Hermione's parents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104037 Wanda Sherratt wrote : > Consider the Narnia books - does anyone ever try > to count how much time the Pevensey children spend with their own > parents? The adults barely enter into the story, because the whole > adventure is something that happens to the kids, without mom and dad > hovering in the background to take over if necessary. Del replies : Yes, but there's a major difference between HP and Narnia. In Narnia, parents never appear, they are not part of the picture at all. In HP, on the other hand, parents and parental figures are *very much* part of the story. Right from the first book, we are told that JKR didn't make Harry an orphan just so he would be free of annoying adults : Harry has a deep emotional issue over his parents' death. And when Sirius dies, many readers' reaction is not : "Oh no, I liked him so much" but rather "Oh no, he was Harry's only parental figure, Harry is orphaned again" Ron's family is also very heavily present in the story. Arthur and Molly Weasley are important figures in the WW (kind of Lucius Malfoy's counterpart), Ron has problems with his parents being poor, and Harry finds a foster family in the Weasleys. So how come Hermione's parents are not part of the picture as well ? Maybe it's because they wouldn't bring anything to the plot, or maybe it's because Shaun is right and there's something wrong in Hermione's relationship with her parents. Maybe it will have an impact later, too. Hermione is a teenage girl : if she keeps cutting herself from her theoretically most important source of support, then she might suffer from it someday (after all, she keeps giving support, but we don't see her getting much of it, if any). Or more simply, maybe Hermione's parents will throw a tantrum someday, and force her to stay with them at a very unconvenient moment. Del From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 08:03:10 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 08:03:10 -0000 Subject: Hermione's parents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104038 Jujube wrote: > I think there is a lot of sadness in this book, from last chapters > of GOF to a great deal of OotP, and in the latter, especially the > loss of Sirius and Harry's growing realization that he's going to > have to stop fooling around because he's got a great task before > him. With all of that as the context, and the knowledge that others > are going to die and that horrible scenes are going to be shown to > him (and therefore to us as readers) beginning with the death of his > parents and ending with who knows what, I think reading these texts > with so highly attuned to personal areas of interest may obscure the > power of what JKR intends to do. (Also, it may really disappoint > folks because issues they feel should be addressed and think will be > addressed may never be examined.) Del replies : I'm a bit surprised. I don't see any contradiction between feeling what JKR wants me to feel, and also being attuned to specific situations. When I read the books the first time, I just can't help but feel exactly what Harry feels, what JKR wants me to feel for Harry, because everything is told from his point of view. The biggest pain is necessarily his, most of the sadness is necessarily his, since his is the only life that is truly considered. So logically, Harry's pain is necessarily the only one I feel when I read a book the first time. I can't miss anything of what JKR intends to make me feel regarding Harry. But that doesn't mean that I'm not open to other people's predicament at the same time. In RL, my and my loved ones' trials take first stage, but I still remain open to other people's problems. It's the same in the books. Harry's pain might be the one we are told most about, but it doesn't mean it's the only one present, far from it ! In GoF and OoP for example, I was very attuned to Neville's pain, and I felt deeply for him each time his pain was shown. Then as I kept reading I would have to switch back to Harry. But on subsequent readings, once I know the story, I can stop and look at Neville's scenes in more details. I can search the books for more information about him, go back to the previous books for clues, and so on. And so concerning Hermione's parents, I didn't notice much at first, but then as I kept reading something kept nagging me, and when Shaun pointed it to us. I realised what it was : Hermione is cutting herself from her loving parents, and that is not usually a good thing in RL. It's not as bad as Harry losing Sirius *as far as Harry is concerned*, but it might become of paramount importance to *Hermione* someday. And maybe to the Trio too : if Hermione has heavy personal issues at some time, she might not be of much use to Harry, and that would become very important to the plot indeed. But I won't be disappointed if JKR shows us that in fact everything is fine with Hermione and her parents. I care very much for some characters (Hermione, Neville, Lupin), and I'd rather they *didn't* have problems :-) Del From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 08:20:21 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 08:20:21 -0000 Subject: Hermione's parents In-Reply-To: <146.2d47675c.2e164046@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104039 : I, Del, wrote : > > And as for those scenes that we get to see and Harry doesn't, they > > are extremely rare. There's the first chapter of SS/PS, and... > > er... well that's pretty much it, if I'm not mistaken. Even the > > first chapter of GoF is actually seen by Harry, in a dream. Batchevra answered : > There is more in the first book that we get a glimpse of a different > perspective. The first is when Harry's broom is being jinxed by > Quirrell, there is one part that shows the perspective of Ron, > Hagrid or Neville. I can't decide which one yet. > > The second one is when Snape is refereeing the Quidditich match and > we get the perspective of either Ron or Neville, Ron tells Harry > later of the fight between Draco, Crabbe and Goyle. Del replies : Thanks Batchevra ! I still think that qualifies as "extremely rare" though. Moreover, they are in the first book, when JKR didn't know if the following books would be published, so she didn't have to keep strictly to Harry's point of view. Can you remember if there are any more scenes in the other books where JKR broke that rule ? I have only GoF and OoP with me, so I can't check CoS and PoA. Del From Hines57 at comcast.net Fri Jul 2 06:35:36 2004 From: Hines57 at comcast.net (hines571) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 06:35:36 -0000 Subject: HBP and CoS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104040 I was just beginning to re-read (for what seems to be the gazillionth time) Chamber of Secrets, when I got to an interesting point in the book. Chapter Seven (Mudbloods and Murmurs) introduces yet again, most strongly, the idea of blood purity. JKR has said multiple times now (can't remember where at the exact moment) that HBP and CoS would be mirrors of each other. I think that the key feature of CoS is obviously the blood issue. None of the other books have blood purity being such an incredibly important issue. The entire sequence of events in CoS revolve around each student's magical lineage. I think what JKR is telling us is that in book six, with Voldemort completely out in the open, it's all going to come back to the key issue of blood purity. The entire book's events are going to center around this, and the ultimate end to the series will come down to a question of blood. I can't really think of any other relevant conjecture's about what book six will contain, but with this in focus, does anyone else have some guesses? Ryan S. BTW- No one has yet touched my post on Theodore Nott as a possibility for the HBP, and in response to any hope for Colin Creevey as the HBP (if Prince is still being interp'd as royalty) Mr. Creevey is a milkman, and they're 100% muggle as far as has been revealed From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 10:32:18 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 10:32:18 -0000 Subject: HBP and CoS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104041 Ryan S. wrote : > No one has yet touched my post on Theodore Nott as a possibility for > the HBP Del replies : Well, that was my first idea as well, but JKR crushed it. On her website, she says that Theodore Nott is a pure-blood. However, there's still Blaise Zabini... Del From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 2 10:41:06 2004 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:41:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Crazy, Crazy Theory About How Harry Will Vanquish Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040702104106.13986.qmail@web25109.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104042 aboutthe1910s: > Okay, so when Voldie possesses Harry in the end of OotP, and Harry > thinks of Sirius, the warm, squishy feelings drive our friend Voldie > out of Harry. From his own body, the warm squishies are merely > repulsive, but bearable. But imagine if Harry were to somehow find in > his heart *pity* or some kind of compassion/forgiveness for Voldie... > These kind of feelings, actually directed specifically at Voldemort, > even from some distance, would most likely be more than Voldemort > could bear. Not that I think that Voldemort deserves forgiveness, or > that it would be remotely fair to ask it of Harry... I'm just saying, > if he could find it in himself to forgive Voldemort, I really think it > would destroy Voldie. Voldemort crushed! by warm, squishies! And it > plays into the whole deal with Harry having the power that Voldie has > not, blah, blah... There is nothing crazy about this theory. In fact it's the best one I've ever read in this group and it fits in precisely with my own theory, which is on file in the Group's Essays: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Essays/ It's called "Harry Potter - Christian Rosycorss in Jeans". I hope you'll read it. I quote from it:"To understand how Harry Potter will defeat Voldemort and liberate himself from his finite consciousness, we need to look at the prophecy. Part of this says ...and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives... This is strongly reminiscent of a sentence in "The Voice of the Silence", by HP Blavatsky. Verse 56 says, "The Self of matter and the SELF of Spirit can never meet. One of the twain must disappear; there is no place for both." This is the key to understanding the prophecy. Harry will not kill Voldemort. The divine soul does not fight. It always withdraws from conflict and radiates love to take its place. Evil always destroys itself in the presence of love, and that is what Voldemort will do." You talk about compassion (what a beautiful word). Compassion is an aspect of love. Whoever has love has compassion. Compassion makes you step inside another's skin and experience his suffering as if it were your own. Compassion also causes one to feel a sharp pain at the realization of WHAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN. There have been some eloquent and moving posts about the similarity between Harry and Tom Riddle, and how one chose selflessness and the other selfishness. If Harry feels compassion for Voldemort it will be for what Tom Riddle could have become if he had made the other choice. And, yes, compassion causes one to forgive. Yes I think it will indeed be compassion and forgiveness that will be Voldemort's downfall. You have written your theory in a style which gives the impression you don't want to be considered sentimental or soppy. Perhaps you thought that if you called your theory crazy then other people wouldn't do it. Dear Friend, there is nothing soppy about compassion. It is a power which liberates both the giver and the receiver. If you can think of a more noble and divine emotion, let me know. I can't. If your theory is crazy, let me join your club! With thanks, Hans in Holland ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From aniron1982 at yahoo.fr Fri Jul 2 08:06:33 2004 From: aniron1982 at yahoo.fr (aniron1982) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 08:06:33 -0000 Subject: Will Harry save Draco one day? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104043 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pandrea100" wrote: > This is a question I've wondered about off and on. Certainly, in > fending off Voldemort, Harry has saved 'everyone' (you could argue), > but what if there was a situation where Draco was in direct danger > and Harry stepped in to save him? There was that encounter they had > in the Forest in PS/SS (hooded figure drinking unicorn's blood), but > Draco actually ran away that time. Anyone think this is a storyline > likely to come up? > > If such a thing happened, would Draco change his mind about Harry? > Or would he, like Snape, just hate him even more? If in some ways > Harry is in danger of repeating Sirius'/James' flaws, is Draco going > the way of Snape? That's something I'm also really curious about: how will the relationship between Harry and Malfoy evolve? The most logic thing would be for Draco to hate Harry for the rest of his life, especially now that Harry helped to put his father in Azkaban. But then, I kinda hope that he won't be staying this one dimenesnional character, and that he, like Snape, will have a more important role in the future (in the positive way ;-) ). On the other hand, in the movies he's portrayed like a very annoying little coward (more so as in the books : I get the impression he's more mean in the books, but slightly less "chicken"), so I fear he will just be staying annoying Malfoy, Harry's arch-enemy ... Aniron From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jul 2 11:13:04 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 11:13:04 -0000 Subject: Harry's potions O.W.L - Outstanding-NOT. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104044 Fx wrote: > Agreeing with your comment on Umbridge, I believe that her statement > was more a reflection on the making of "strengthening solution" than > the actual difficulty of the potion. > > Potioncat: I thouht she meant that the students were advanced in general and that she didn't approve of that potion in particular. From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 11:32:27 2004 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 11:32:27 -0000 Subject: Trelawney still teaching (Was Ron as Seer?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104045 > Carol: > I think you mean Sibyll (or Sybill, depending on whether you have the > American or British edition of the books). Cassandra was her great > great grandmother (or some such relation) and is presumably dead. Also > Sybill is no longer teaching Divination (though she still lives at > Hogwarts, presumably for her own protection because she certainly > would, as you say, be one of Voldemort's targets if she were to > leave). After Umbridge fired her, Dumbledore hired Firenze the Centaur > (another displaced and protected "person") to take her place. Diana L.: Actually, Trelawney is still going to teach Divination. Pg. 849 of US edition of OotP: "Speaking of centaurs," said Hermione, when she had recovered a little, "who's Divination teacher now? Is Firenze staying?" "He's got to," said Harry, "the other centaurs won't take him back, will they?" "It looks like he and Trelawney are both going to teach," said Ginny. "Bet Dumbledore wishes he could've got rid of Trelawney for good," said Ron... I don't believe any of the changes, hirings, firings and punishments Umbridge inflicted upon the teachers or students at Hogwarts are going to be maintained. Meaning that Harry will also be playing Quidditch next year as his *lifetime* ban will be removed. And Filch will NOT be allowed to whip misbehaving students, much to his disappointment. Diana L. (still wishing Umbridge had gotten punished for what she did to Harry & Dean with that blood-letting quill in detention) From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jul 2 11:44:41 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 11:44:41 -0000 Subject: Harry's potions O.W.L - Outstanding-NOT. In-Reply-To: <20.2d5907ae.2e16455f@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104046 Potioncat: > > Actually, we don't know how this portion of the test is conducted. > > Or how it's graded so I guess it's all guess work on our part anyway. > > :-) > > Potioncat > > > > > Melissa: > Yeah but its fun to guess maybe she'll even answer our questions one day > Potioncat: Yes it is, and I can't give it up. ;-) I happened to recall a rather distant memory of practicals from my university days (identifying the best locations for bleeding, proper use of leeches, etc) and we generally had stations or series of tasks to perform at an exam level. Most likely making a potion was only one part of the practical exam. Even though that was the only part Harry thinks about and was probably the most important part. Perhaps there were stations with ingredients to identify or perhaps they had to locate a bezoar (where do you suppose they keep the goats?) Potioncat From silmariel at telefonica.net Fri Jul 2 12:15:50 2004 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (a_silmariel) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 12:15:50 -0000 Subject: JKR's input on film scene at GH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104047 "carin_in_oh" wrote: > Lexicon article on Godric's Hollow: "According to published reports, Rowling had direct input into the scene in the first film." > > and on The Missing 24 Hours: "In the film, in a scene which JKR made clear that she personally added, we never see James, just Lily." > > But I cannot for the life of me find the original source. Can anyone help? Carolina: Look in the PS/DVD. There's an interview with Rowling where she talks about that scene. At least in the spanish edition. That's why I consider those few seconds canon (or very close to) and I find interesting the 'You heard James?' line combined with James specifically not appearing in the scene. From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 12:18:38 2004 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 12:18:38 -0000 Subject: CoS clues to Books 6 & 7 analysis Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104048 I've been thinking about the hints JKR keeps throwing out about how CoS gives big clues to how the books are going to end. So, I've broken down the end of CoS and can easily see circumstances repeating themselves at the end of book 7. First, Harry and Voldemort (the memory of Tom Riddle in CoS, of course, but still the same villian nonetheless) faced each other in CoS completely alone. No friends were there with Harry and no DEs were there with Voldemort. This is almost a gimme. I would be surprised if Harry *didn't* face Voldemort alone at the end of book 7, actually. Second, Harry does have support - from Fawkes (representing Dumbledore) and, to his surprise, from Godric Gryffindor (represented by a hat and a sword that once belonged to him). Voldemort's support is a basilisk, which is just a big snake (Nagini, anyone?). Harry can speak parseltongue and has even possessed Nagini briefly [admittedly unwillingly]; could Harry talk Nagini out of attacking him? Third, Ginny is present during the confrontation (though out cold and near death) and is the reason Harry went down into the Chamber in the first place; he wanted to save her. Could Harry's desire to save Ginny lead him to the final battle with Voldemort? I found JKR's statement [on her website] that Ginny being the only girl born into several generations of Weasleys a fascinting fact that may be a clue to Ginny's importance to future events and her ultimate importance to Harry. Yes, Harry/Ginny shippers, I'm thinking this may be a huge hint in that direction. Ron's little eye flicker toward Harry at the end of OotP when telling Ginny to pick a better boyfriend next time tells me that Ron *wants* Ginny and Harry to get together, which I find interesting for a character who's so clueless about girls and relationships that he can't stop arguing long enough with the one [Hermione] he likes the most in order to ask her out! Something tells me Ginny's part in the events to come is going to be major. Fourth, Harry kills Tom Riddle by 'killing' the diary. Maybe the way to kill Voldemort is by not attacking him directly, but by attacking his source of power which is separate from him? I can't remember anything Voldemort might own that would be considered a source of power to him, but it's an idea, anyway. Fifth, Ron tries to go with Harry all the way into the Chamber, but is physically separated from him by the collapse of the tunnel. This separation saves Ron's life, because I would guarantee you that Ron would have been killed by the basilisk's stare or Tom Riddle himself if he'd shown up with Harry in the last chamber. Maybe at the end Ron [or Hermione?] goes most of the way to the final battle and is separated from Harry at the last moment, thereby saving his [or her?] life? Sixth, Fawkes saves Harry's life with his tears just moments before Harry dies from the basilisk venom. Maybe Fawkes [or some other magical object/person/spell] will do this again and save Harry after he suffers a mortal wound that would otherwise kill him without this aid? Whether this miraculous cure would happen before or after Harry defeats Voldemort is anyone's guess. Seventh, Harry's discovered a lot about Tom Riddle's past and this might be very important to how he defeats Voldemort. Harry knows a lot about Riddle, from his being a half-blood [which Harry revealed to the DEs in the MoM at the end of OotP] to Riddle's overwhelming desire to stay at Hogwarts instead of going back to an orphange. I wonder if Harry's going to discover some heretofore unknown weakness of Voldemort's because of what he knows about his past? That's all I can think of for now. Any additions to list? Diana L. From belijako at online.no Fri Jul 2 12:29:08 2004 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 12:29:08 -0000 Subject: HBP and CoS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104049 Ryan wrote: I think what JKR is telling us is that in book six, with Voldemort completely out in the open, it's all going to come back to the key issue of blood purity. The entire book's events are going to center around this, and the ultimate end to the series will come down to a question of blood. Berit replies: I really think you've got a point! I believe it's the CoS theme that is going to be important in the sixth book. I don't think Rowling meant for us to go looking for specific details or characters in CoS who could possibly be the halfblood prince. That said, I have a theory of who this prince might be, and I have a strong feeling I might be unto something though I have no factual evidence to back it up :-) This might have been suggested already; my apologies if the name has come up (I've been away from the list for some time): The prince is of course... Mark Evans! It's just like Rowling to introduce a new, important character just in passing... (remember Sirius in PS/SS?) All we know about him is that he'll be eleven when Hogwarts starts up in the autumn, and that he is a brave little lad, having the guts to stand up to Dudley the bully. One of his parents might very well be magical, making him a halfblood. Berit From mrflynn6 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 12:40:14 2004 From: mrflynn6 at yahoo.com (mrflynn6) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 12:40:14 -0000 Subject: Talking porttraits/photographs Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104050 I looked in the VFAQ and did a search and didn't find anything on this, so hear goes: Why can people talk with portraits and not photographs? Why not have a portrait done of Harry's parents (or anyone for that matter) so Harry can converse with them? Obviously the previous Headmasters are important people, but the what about the Fat Lady and all the other portraits in the castle and other places? Could Harry have portraits done of Sirius and hang one at the headquarters and one his dorm room for information about the progress of the Order? Just an odd though after rereading the series, again. mrflynn From aldhelm at earthlink.net Fri Jul 2 12:54:44 2004 From: aldhelm at earthlink.net (carin_in_oh) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 12:54:44 -0000 Subject: JKR's input on film scene at GH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104051 > Carolina: > > Look in the PS/DVD. There's an interview with Rowling where she talks > about that scene. At least in the spanish edition. > > That's why I consider those few seconds canon (or very close to) and I > find interesting the 'You heard James?' line combined with James > specifically not appearing in the scene. Thanks! Since I posted my original query, I've discovered that JKR's authorship of that scene was also mentioned by Chris Columbus in an October 10, 2001 interview with Empire Online. The Columbus interview itself seems not to be archived, but reports of the interview mention that the scene was from one of the discarded 1st chapter drafts of PS/SS - which, in light of what she's now told us about the first chapter of HPB, is even more interesting than it would otherwise be. I'd bet if she brought back a snippet of the discarded chapter for the PS/SS film, there's a very good chance it's the same discarded chapter she's planning to use in bk. 6. Carin From griffin782002 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 11:23:40 2004 From: griffin782002 at yahoo.com (sp. sot.) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 04:23:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Will Harry save Draco one day? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040702112340.24093.qmail@web90004.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104052 pandrea100 wrote: > Certainly, in fending off Voldemort, Harry has saved 'everyone' > (you could argue), but what if there was a situation where Draco > was in direct danger and Harry stepped in to save him? > > If such a thing happened, would Draco change his mind about Harry? > Or would he, like Snape, just hate him even more? If in some ways > Harry is in danger of repeating Sirius'/James' flaws, is Draco going > the way of Snape? griffin782002: I believe it would be a nice twist in the plot. I re-read a couple of days ago The Philosopher's/Sorcerer's Stone. In the last chapter DD says that James once saved Snape's life. And we also learn that Harry had the impression that Snape could his mind. And we find out what Occlumency and Legilimency is in OotP. Can this be an indication about what is going to happen in the future? From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 13:39:08 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 13:39:08 -0000 Subject: Pensieve = Security Camera? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104053 Carol wrote: Occlumency seems to be a rare skill and Pensieves appear to be even rarer. We've seen only one so far (Snape borrowed Dumbledore's for the occasion). The memories aren't stored there. When the Occlumens has finished studying them--objectively, in relation to each other, uncontaminated by the subjective context of his own mind--or when he no longer needs to conceal them from another person--he returns them to his own mind. vmonte responds: We don't really know that Snape borrowed DD's penseive. He may be doing the same thing that DD is doing -- looking at his memories in order to make connections. vivian From pegruppel at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 13:42:29 2004 From: pegruppel at yahoo.com (Peggy) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 13:42:29 -0000 Subject: CoS clues to Books 6 & 7 analysis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104054 Diana wrote: "....Harry's discovered a lot about Tom Riddle's past and this might be very important to how he defeats Voldemort. Harry knows a lot about Riddle, from his being a half-blood [which Harry revealed to the DEs in the MoM at the end of OotP] to Riddle's overwhelming desire to stay at Hogwarts instead of going back to an orphange. I wonder if Harry's going to discover some heretofore unknown weakness of Voldemort's because of what he knows about his past?" Now Peg: I've been wondering about exactly how much Harry and Co. *really* know about Tom's past. I've found it interesting in CoS and in GoF that, even though we know Tom's (Lord V's) father's name, we never, *ever* see his mother's name mentioned. I find that very odd, and suspicious. In the opening Chapter of GoF, the people of Little Hangleton are gossiping about the deaths of the Riddle family, but one would expect someone to say *something* about how the younger Riddle ran off with so-and-so's daughter, and then came home again, and now he's dead. When the local rich man's son runs off with a local girl, that's always big news in a small town. On either side of the Atlantic. I'm not going to jump to the conclusion that her last name was Evans, or Weasley, or any other family name that we've been introduced to. But her family history is significant, not just for the fact that she, too, must have been a descendent of Salazar, but also because she's been so peripheral to the story, so far. Anyone else? Peg From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 14:08:20 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 14:08:20 -0000 Subject: CoS clues to Books 6 & 7 analysis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104055 Diana wrote: Third, Ginny is present during the confrontation (though out cold and near death) and is the reason Harry went down into the Chamber in the first place; he wanted to save her. Could Harry's desire to save Ginny lead him to the final battle with Voldemort? I found JKR's statement [on her website] that Ginny being the only girl born into several generations of Weasleys a fascinting fact that may be a clue to Ginny's importance to future events and her ultimate importance to Harry. Yes, Harry/Ginny shippers, I'm thinking this may be a huge hint in that direction. Ron's little eye flicker toward Harry at the end of OotP when telling Ginny to pick a better boyfriend next time tells me that Ron *wants* Ginny and Harry to get together, which I find interesting for a character who's so clueless about girls and relationships that he can't stop arguing long enough with the one [Hermione] he likes the most in order to ask her out! Something tells me Ginny's part in the events to come is going to be major. vivian responds: Good post Diana. I think that Ginny is going to be important at the end as well. JKR has also given us small clues about Ginny throughout the books. I liked when Ginny reminds Harry that she is the only person aside from him that was possed by Voldemort/Tom Riddle. I think that Ginny has learned something about Tom during CoS. Weren't they writing back and forth to each other in the diary. I think it would be to Harry's benefit to talk to Ginny about her conversations with Tom. Some other hints about Ginny include the fact that she took over Harry's role in Quidditch when he was thrown out of the game. Is this some kind of metaphor for what Ginny will do in the end? Will she step in to help Harry in the final moments. She does owe him her life, right? I also think that Ginny is an animagus, or will become one. She is always described in feline ways (in the same manner that Sirius was often described in dog-like ways). Diana: Fourth, Harry kills Tom Riddle by 'killing' the diary. Maybe the way to kill Voldemort is by not attacking him directly, but by attacking his source of power which is separate from him? I can't remember anything Voldemort might own that would be considered a source of power to him, but it's an idea, anyway. vivian: This is a very good observation. What if there is a part of Voldemort inside of Harry? What if Lily's spell split Voldemort's essence in half. The human side (Tom Riddle) was absorbed into baby Harry, and the immortal creature Voldemort had become through his many transformations, became Vapormort, a kind of undead -- one step away from a dementor-like creature. Or, like the diary, is there another version of Voldemort out there that we don't know about? Diana: Fifth, Ron tries to go with Harry all the way into the Chamber, but is physically separated from him by the collapse of the tunnel. This separation saves Ron's life, because I would guarantee you that Ron would have been killed by the basilisk's stare or Tom Riddle himself if he'd shown up with Harry in the last chamber. Maybe at the end Ron [or Hermione?] goes most of the way to the final battle and is separated from Harry at the last moment, thereby saving his [or her?] life? vivian: Yes, good point. Have you noticed that neither Hermione or Ron have ever met Voldemort? But that Ginny has? I think this is key. I'm not sure why yet. Diana: Sixth, Fawkes saves Harry's life with his tears just moments before Harry dies from the basilisk venom. Maybe Fawkes [or some other magical object/person/spell] will do this again and save Harry after he suffers a mortal wound that would otherwise kill him without this aid? Whether this miraculous cure would happen before or after Harry defeats Voldemort is anyone's guess. vivian: Could it be Neville's abilities with Herbology? Or will Snape put a stopper on death? Diana: Seventh, Harry's discovered a lot about Tom Riddle's past and this might be very important to how he defeats Voldemort. Harry knows a lot about Riddle, from his being a half-blood [which Harry revealed to the DEs in the MoM at the end of OotP] to Riddle's overwhelming desire to stay at Hogwarts instead of going back to an orphange. I wonder if Harry's going to discover some heretofore unknown weakness of Voldemort's because of what he knows about his past? vivian: Yes. I think Harry should talk to Ginny. They were pen pals for a whole year... From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Jul 2 14:11:02 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 14:11:02 -0000 Subject: Getting to Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104056 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: Asian_lovr2: > For the most part, I think this is one of those things we aren't > suppose to think about. This is fiction, so some things are just left > to the imagination, and have no real-world explanation. > > However, if we apply our imaginations, let's see what we can come up with. > > > First, in the real world, London is a very old and historic city, it's > not that uncommon to see someone in a period costume walking about the > city. > > Plus, I'm lead to believe the London is also a very very diversified > city. You see an amazing cross-section of people; rude boys, punks, > rockers, Mods, ravers, high fashion, low fashion, weirdos of all > shapes and sizes. Geoff: Plus a large number of tourists who are often very casually dressed. > Travel gets a little more complicated. We know that people can > certainly get to Diagon Alley and the Leaky Cauldron. Charring Cross > Road is slighly North of Central London, Geoff: /Very/ slightly north. Charing Cross itself is considered to be the centre point of London in terms of mileage measurements and the southern end of Charing Cross Road is within a couple of hundred yards of the actual cross. Steve/asian_lovr2; and King's Cross Station is a > ways north and slightly east of Charring Cross Road/Oxford. > > Using www.map24.com I measured the street distance from Charring Cross > Rd and Oxford St to King's Cross Station (north on Trottingham Court > Rd and east on Euston Rd), at about 2.25km or about 1.4 miles. From > the south (farthest) end of Charring Cross Rd along the same route, > the distance is about 3km or about 1.9 miles. > > Straight line distance, Charring Cross Rd/Oxford to Kings Cross = > 1.8km (1.1miles), or Leicester Square (south Charring Cross) to Kings > Cross = 2.5km (1.6miles). This all ignores one way streets. I'm pretty > sure Charring Cross Rd is a one-way heading south, but like I said, > I'm ignoring that for the moment. Geoff: North I think because the extension of Charing Cross Road goes into Tottenham Court Road which is paralleled by Gower Street as a southbound one-way. A more usual route from Charing Cross, certainly by bus would be Strand-Aldwych-Kingsway-Southampton Row-Euston-Euston Road-Kings Cross. In London terms it si a fairly short (but rather slow!!) journey. > The point is that from the Leaky Cauldron or Diagon Alley to Kings > Cross Station is not very far; 1.5 to 2 miles depending on where The > Leaky Cauldron actually is. I'm guessing most wizards could endure a > taxi ride for that short distance. But that brings up the question, > how do they get a cab? Could a whole crowd of student wizards hail a > fleet of taxis from outside the Leaky Cauldron? Could they telephone > for a cab? Where would they get a telephone? > > After all that analysis, truth be told, I'm drawing a blank, and > that's a very rare occurance. I could suggest horse drawn carriages, > that which we here in the USA call 'handsome cabs'. But, again, you > would need a fleet of them. > > Perhaps there is a combined muggle/magic or muggle-born's business > near Kings Cross that allows witches and wizards to use their > fireplace. I've often speculated that there are a lot of mixed > marriage wizard/muggle businesses that act as go betweens for the > muggle and magic world. > > That's probably the best I can come up with. The idea that near Kings > Cross is a muggle who is married to a magic person who runs a tea shop > or other business, and the wizard world pays them a small fee for > access to their fireplace. > > Can anybody come up with anything better? > > Of course, I suspect there is no real answer, but I'm still interested > in what other might speculate as a solution. > > Steve/asian_lovr2 From cyclone_61032 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 13:41:40 2004 From: cyclone_61032 at yahoo.com (David & Laura) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 13:41:40 -0000 Subject: CoS clues to Books 6 & 7 analysis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104057 Diana wrote in message #104048: > I've been thinking about the hints JKR keeps throwing out about how > CoS gives big clues to how the books are going to end. So, I've > broken down the end of CoS and can easily see circumstances > repeating themselves at the end of book 7. > > > Any additions to list? Diana, You hit most of the main points I believe. I would add one other COS item that may have connection with the half blood prince title of 6. In the required end-of-book wrap up between DD and Harry, DD (not attempting to quote verbatim here) tells Harry that it would have to have been a true Gryffindor to pull that sword out of the sorting hat. I'm leaning to GG being the half blood prince, or prince of half bloods, and Harry is a blood relative. David From aldhelm at earthlink.net Fri Jul 2 14:23:53 2004 From: aldhelm at earthlink.net (carin_in_oh) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 14:23:53 -0000 Subject: CoS clues to Books 6 & 7 analysis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104058 Peg: ... > even though we know Tom's (Lord V's) father's name, we never, > *ever* see his mother's name mentioned. I find that very odd, and > suspicious. ... We do know (COS ch. 13) that his mother lived just long enough to name him Marvolo, after his grandfather - presumably her father. Is Marvolo a first or a last name? If the latter, we know her family name. I expect we'll hear more about ol' Marvolo, one way or another. Carin From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Jul 2 14:22:16 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 14:22:16 -0000 Subject: CoS clues to Books 6 & 7 analysis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104059 Diana L. > I've been thinking about the hints JKR keeps throwing out about how > CoS gives big clues to how the books are going to end. So, I've > broken down the end of CoS and can easily see circumstances > repeating themselves at the end of book 7. > Harry kills Tom Riddle by 'killing' the diary. Maybe the > way to kill Voldemort is by not attacking him directly, but by > attacking his source of power which is separate from him? I can't > remember anything Voldemort might own that would be considered a > source of power to him, but it's an idea, anyway. Jen: This makes a good visual, a source of power that Voldemort posesses. I think that moment in OOTP, when Harry thinks of Sirius and expels Voldemort from possessing him, is the key. If Harry is saved by his heart, then surely Voldemort is doomed by his fear? If Harry has anything, it is his ability to draw people and situations to him out of his selfless need to defeat evil. Voldemort, OTOH, is constantly finding misery, defeat and betrayl in his attempts to overcome good. Another source of his power is the DE's--if they were to turn on him, he wouldn't have power over anyone, which he seems to feed off of. Related to this idea, is the process happening to Ginny and Tom Riddle in the chamber. As he grows stronger, Ginny grows weaker, and vice-versa. That's what I envision happening to Harry and LV. The scene in COS was the first clue, then the scene above in OOTP-- "Neither can live while the other survives." Whether it will happen literally, metaphorically, symbolically, who knows!?! But somehow Harry & Voldemort's sources of power will do battle, just like the brother wands in GOF. Thanks, Diana--nice post! Jen Reese From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Fri Jul 2 14:26:56 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 09:26:56 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CoS clues to Books 6 & 7 analysis Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104060 I'm leaning to GG being the half blood prince, or prince of half bloods, and Harry is a blood relative. David Gina : I have always believed this. Initially I believed Harry was somehow a descendent of both SS and GG and THAT is why he could "choose" which house he belonged in. I know this theory has been shot down many times by interviews saying Harry is not related to LV and that he has no living relatives but the Dursleys, but Tom Riddle is in fact dead so I stand firm to my theory that Harry carries the blood of both! Gina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 14:29:28 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 14:29:28 -0000 Subject: Getting to Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104061 Steve wrote: While some of my references are dated, the point is that in a big diverse city like London, it's very common to see unusual people lurking about. Consequently, I think a robed wizard would be far less out of place in London than they would in say New York, or Minneapolis. vmonte responds: You obviously haven't been in New York City lately! LOL From meriaugust at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 14:34:38 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 14:34:38 -0000 Subject: Talking porttraits/photographs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104062 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mrflynn6" wrote: > I looked in the VFAQ and did a search and didn't find anything on > this, so hear goes: > > Why can people talk with portraits and not photographs? Why not have > a portrait done of Harry's parents (or anyone for that matter) so > Harry can converse with them? Obviously the previous Headmasters are > important people, but the what about the Fat Lady and all the other > portraits in the castle and other places? Could Harry have portraits > done of Sirius and hang one at the headquarters and one his dorm room > for information about the progress of the Order? > > > Just an odd though after rereading the series, again. > > mrflynn Well, you've hit on just one of the things that hopefully JKR will explain in her HP encyclopedia that we all hope she will publish after book 7. Anyway, I would assume that a witch or wizard would have to sit for a portrait, and that some sort of spell would be cast to transfer a semblance of the subject's personality to the painting (see Mrs. Black in Order). If someone did a portrait of Lilly and James now I don't think that Harry would be able to talk to them, because there'd be no live subject to get the personailty from. Photos on the other hand, are seemingly just moving, enchanted pictures that are developed in a special potion to allow the subjects to move. So presumably a Muggle roll of film developed in the right potion would produce moving pictures as well. Though as evidenced in both Order (when Percy walks out of the family photo) and CoS (when Harry tries to escape the picture of him and Lockhart) the subjects retain some rudimentary knowledge of their real person. So, yes there are some inconsistencies. Anyway, just two knuts... Meri From massiveroadtrauma at yahoo.com.au Fri Jul 2 13:48:18 2004 From: massiveroadtrauma at yahoo.com.au (massiveroadtrauma) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 13:48:18 -0000 Subject: A different interpretation of the prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104063 Roo wrote: > So I read the prophecy over and over (and over) until I wanted to > tear out page 841 in frustration...and the minute I gave up and > slammed the book, the thought struck me: what if it refers to > *both* Harry and Neville? > > My reasoning is the strange wording of the prophecy: "either must > die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other > survives..." If her meaning was that Harry must kill Voldemort or > vice versa, wouldn't it have been better worded as "one must die > at the hand of the other for one can not live if the other survives"? > Sufficiently mysterious, but much clearer :) > > Yet her "extremely carefully" worded prophecy uses "either" and > "neither." Could it then be read as "and EITHER (Harry or Neville) > must die at the hand of the OTHER (Voldemort) for NEITHER (Harry nor > Neville) can live while the OTHER (Voldemort) survives" ? I understand your reasoning, but I can't see such a wordsmith as JKR indulging in so grammatically incorrect a prophecy. Were your interpretation correct, it could be paraphrased as "Voldemort must kill either Neville or Harry (one of them), because neither Harry nor Neville (the both) can live whilst Voldemort survives." ...which doesn't ring true to me. I think you may well be on the right track...It just sounds off; and nothing JKR has written has yet sounded off to me! MRT. From jlaming426 at aol.com Fri Jul 2 15:03:56 2004 From: jlaming426 at aol.com (jimlaming) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 15:03:56 -0000 Subject: Help, I've got another question... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104064 HELP! I am in a discussion (at work) and don't have a book at hand. In OOP, at GP, when Sirius is explaining his family tree to Harry, he explains that his mother had blasted several names, including his own, off the tapestry for various reasons, mostly betrayal to the "Family Values." Sirius says something about a person (male?) being missing and wonders out loud if it was because of Then Molly comes in with food or some other interruption and he does not finish or expand on that person. Who was it and why were they blasted off the tapestry? That part of the scene has always set off a yellow flag for me. JK sneaks in a tidbit but doesn't fill in the hold story. Is this a clue of someone who will play a role later or just a stray piece of background? Is that person alive or dead? ON A TOTALLY DIFFERENT SUBJECT My off the wall prediction: I predict HHR will have a reason to go into the Hogwarts Cemetery, perhaps to discover Harry's parents gravesite, and will find Godric Gryffindor's grave. Somewhere on his headstone will be the words "Half Blood Prince." And Harry will find out that he is a blood descendant of GG, perhaps even heir to some Gryffindor secrets (al la COS). Secrets which were revealed to his father, James, and which were a turning point for his father to become a "better" person. The person Lily fell in love with. Have at it ;-) Jim Laming From dk59us at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 15:10:12 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 15:10:12 -0000 Subject: Getting to Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104065 Carol : > What I wonder is how the pureblood kids get their trunks to and from > King's Cross Station. Even if they're old enough to apparate, you > can't apparate with a trunk (and in many cases, a pet as well). I > don't think you can get to King's Cross using Floo Powder, either, as > there aren't any fireplaces there even if you could "Floo" with a > trunk. And you can't ride a broom in broad daylight with a trunk > hanging from it without calling attention to yourself (the escort at > the beginning of OoP strikes me as one of the most improbable scenes > in any of the books). What about Portkeys? They seem to be used to get large numbers of magic folk to a central location at prescribed times. The World Cup of course was a special case, but the Department of Magical Transportation (is that the right name?) is a permanent agency that I would think would insure that portkeys were available every September to get folks to King's Cross. It might not be any more convenient to drag your trunk along via portkey, but we know Harry transported Cedric's body that way...I don't have GOF with me but I am guessing that at least some of the World Cup attendees brought luggage with them. Carol again: > Yes, the Malfoys et al. can get to *Diagon Alley* by Floo powder if > they don't have a trunk to worry about, but how do they get to and > from King's Cross? For that matter, how do the Weasleys usually do it > when they don't rent a taxi or have the use of Fudge's car? Eustace_Scrubb: Good question. This may be movie contamination in part, but it seems that the soot and smudges resulting from floo travel is one of the things that sets the Weasleys' socioeconomically below the well-groomed Malfoys. In PS/SS, Ron has dirt on his nose (his mother points it out in the book, Hermione in the movie). It's not stated, but my guess is that it's left from a floo journey on the way to King's Cross. I don't remember what the COS book says about the Weasleys' appearance after going to Diagon Alley. Certainly they and Harry look quite disshevelled in the movie, especially in contrast to suave Lucius Malfoy. So I doubt the Malfoys travel by floo powder very often. Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From jjjjjulie at aol.com Fri Jul 2 15:22:22 2004 From: jjjjjulie at aol.com (jjjjjuliep) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 15:22:22 -0000 Subject: Hermione's parents In-Reply-To: <40E524E6.31055.3402C5@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104066 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" wrote: > And while somebody else is certainly fully entitled to disagree > with me, about what we're seeing, I don't think it's a good idea > for people to refuse to believe things haved happened in the books > simply because they don't like the idea. But certainly the non-believers have the same right to refuse to believe things they don't like (although that's not the basis for my comments; as I noted, I don't think the text supports such theories and here I'm hindered by my profession [historian]) as the believers do to choose to believe things they like, no? ;-) I have no interest in causing any ill-feeling with my opinions, and so I'll end this discussion here. It'll be interesting to see how the next 2 books unfold. ;-) jujube From tzakis1225 at netzero.com Fri Jul 2 15:27:02 2004 From: tzakis1225 at netzero.com (demetra1225) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 15:27:02 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: <9D35AF46-CABB-11D8-B3FD-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104067 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith wrote: {snip} Wherever he goes, whatever he does, he's a disaster waiting to happen. > > The Siriophile excuses keep rolling out of course; > "He's spent 12 years suffering in Azkaban! What do you expect!" > "He's never recovered from his childhood with that horrible family of his! We must make allowances!" > "But he loves Harry, so he must be good!" > > Yeah, sure. > Whenever I consider Sirius an old quote springs to mind: > "The more he protested his honour, the faster we counted the spoons." {snip) Demetra: Kneasy, no matter if I agree with you or not, your posts always make me laugh. Kneasy: {snip} > So in the spirit of performing a public service, once again it's time to delve into the dossier of S. Black Esq. and see what we can see, fully conscious that rewards will be slight and may consist solely of vituperation or worse. {snip} Demetra: Allow me to join in, if you will. I too have been thinking about Sirius and his story for a while, probably since I read Kneasy's post #79808. Just to qualify where I'm coming from ? I like Snape (would probably qualify as a Snape apologist), I like Harry (yes it is possible to like both Snape and Harry) and I was puzzled by Sirius in PoA, liked him in GoF and didn't like him at all in OotP. However, I was convinced that he was being slipped a confusement and befuddlement draft in OotP and that was what caused his seeming personality change. I also thought that perhaps his passing through the veil was a heroic and necessary act that he volunteered for (see Talisman's Tactics&Prescience thread starting with post 66983 and my response 76111). I'm less convinced of that now, although I do think that Sirius may play a future role as a conduit between those living and those who have moved on to the next great adventure. Most recently though, I started viewing Sirius in an altogether different light. I was trying to compose a post on Snape and his behaviour, comparing it to my father and his experiences in WWII. I've yet to finish that post, it started to get too long and the Snape thread appears to have died a merciful death so I'll save that one for another time. But I was reminded of another of Dad's war stories that in turn reminded me of Sirius. Dad was an American soldier ? a tank driver in Germany during the last two years of WWII. There was another guy in his division who was an excellent soldier, was a sharp-shooter and was totally committed to wiping out the Nazis. He was also vain, condescending, prickly and extremely bigoted. He was not a team player at all, something that all good soldiers need to be. But, he was tolerated because he had excellent skills. One day while the division had stopped and were out of the tanks taking a break, he pulled out his gun, aimed it towards my dad, told him "I never liked greasy Greeks" and fired a shot that went to the left of my dad's head by about a foot. Nobody thought that he really wanted to shoot my dad ? if he had wanted to hit him, there is no way he would have missed. Nonetheless, he was court martialed and received a dishonorable discharge. That guy reminds me of Sirius. No question what side he was on, smart, some valuable skills. But a danger to his own side because of an inability to suppress his own impulses and act rashly. I'm starting to wonder if Sirius was kept in Grimmauld Place primarily to protect himself or to protect the other members of the Order. Because there is no doubt in my mind that Sirius is an impulsive man who doesn't think things through and never grew up. And I can't buy the argument that he couldn't mature because he was in Azkaban for 12 years. Why hadn't he matured before then? He had to have been at least 21 years old when he was thrown in Azkaban. He had been out of school for at least 2 years. Sorry, I might be able to make some allowances for a teenaged boy, but by that age he should have matured beyond the level of a 15 year old. Hell, Harry is 15 and far surpassess Sirius in the maturity department. James apparently had matured enough to get married, have a child, make an attempt to protect his wife and child from Voldemort. So why hasn't Sirius grown up? Kneasy: {snip} Once again he has one aim. Kill Peter. After 12 years of sitting around, claiming that it was only the knowledge that he was innocent that kept him sane, his preferred first action is to kill the one person who could actually *prove* his innocence. {snip} Demetra: Here's another part I have a hard time with. Ron was sitting up in bed, the hangings torn from one side, a look of utmost terror on his face. "Black! Sirius Black! With a knife!" "What?" "Here! Just now! Slashed the curtains! Woke me up!" (PoA, page 266) So, Sirius decides he needs to exact revenge on PP, so he goes after Scabbers, and by default Ron, when they are asleep. What did he intend to do with/to Ron? Do you really think he was planning to carefully isolate the rat and stab it while causing no harm to Ron? Or did Sirius think that any harm that came to Ron was incidental to his need to get revenge? Great Godfather he is ? willing to kill/harm Harry's best friend. But he sent Harry a firebolt, so that probably would make it even in Sirius' mind. Or how about this, when they were in the Shreiking Shack But Black's free hand had found Harry's throat ? "No," he hissed, "I've waited too long ---" The fingers tightened, Harry choked, his glasses askew. (PoA, page 340) Yep, he loves Harry all right. Just has a strange way of showing it. I know there are a lot of folks out there who think there was a special (maybe even slashy) relationship between Sirius and Lupin. Although canon certainly shows that James and Sirius had a close friendship, I think that Sirius has shown disregard for Lupin and their friendship. Look at how he treats Lupin in the Pensieve scene. "I'm bored," said Sirius. "Wish it was full moon." "You might," said Lupin darkly from behind his book. "We've still got transfiguration, if you're bored you could test me ..Here." He held out the book. Sirius snorted. "I don't need to look at that rubbish. I know it all." (OotP, page 645) Let's see, he talks about the full moon fondly to his werewolf friend, who suffers greatly because of what he is. That's kind. Then he refuses to help his friend study because he knows everything already. Never mind that his friend might need some help. Not a concern of Sirius', who acts as though the world revolves around him. And why does he send Snape to the shreiking shack knowing harm will befall Lupin as well. Perhaps it is another example of Sirius acting without thinking. Or, perhaps he was trying to kill two birds with one stone .punish both Snape and Lupin. I think the pensieve scene shows us a few things about the relationship of the Marauders. James and Sirius are the central figures of the group. Peter is the hero worshipper. What about Lupin? Seems to be kind of the fringe friend. Could they have become animagi just because they thought it would be cool to run around with a dark creature rather than a deep concern for Lupin? Do the others really care about Lupin as a person? Sirius certainly dismisses him as unimportant in the above exchange. And Lupin has his nose buried in a book during most of the outside scene. Who else in that scene acts the same way? I'm convinced there is more to the Snape/Lupin dynamic than meets the eye. Both seem to have been bookish when in school. James and Sirius don't. Is it possible that Lupin and Snape ran across each other in the library ? like Hermione and Krum? Could a tentative friendship have started ? something that Sirius felt a need to end, and if Snape ends up dead more's the better? And if Lupin could tentatively befriend someone like Snape, couldn't you see Sirius taking that as evidence that Lupin was the one who was betraying the order later? Kneasy: {snip} Why would Sirius be terminated in book 5 of 7 - with strong hints that there will be further revelations to come regarding Sirius' place in the plot? "..learn much more about Sirius," is the phrase used IIRC. > What else can we learn that we don't know already? Nothing - unless he wasn't what he seemed to be. {snip} Demetra: Entirely possible. I find it easier to believe than ESE Lupin. My only problem is that at the end of GoF Dumbledore says he trusts both Snape and Sirius. So despite all my misgivings, I can concede that Sirus might be on the right side, although he is far from nice (IMHO anyway). Demetra (who belatedly realizes she has included a number of her hair- brained theories in this post despite promising herself she would stick to the facts) My favorite quote (makes me laugh every time): >From PoA Ron (to Sir Cadogan) "Yeah, we'll call you," muttered Ron as the knight disappeared, "if we ever need someone mental." From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Jul 2 15:41:50 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 15:41:50 -0000 Subject: Harry's special power, which leads to Dumbledore as the Half Blood Prince Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104068 One of the crucial parts of the series to me is how Harry came to be the 'One with the Power to Vanquish the Dark Lord', i.e., whether the Prophecy is informing the WW there will be a child born who has this power, or whether Harry becomes the One when Voldemort 'marked him as his equal' by the Curse that Failed. Many times in interviews, JKR or others talk about how Harry is every-boy, and that is why he's so appealing. He's smart but not brilliant, makes many mistakes, and seems special only in his ability to fly and aptitude for DADA. In spite of this, I tend toward the first explanation, that Harry was indeed born with an innate power to vanquish the Dark Lord, whether he chooses to manifest it or not. I mean, it's murkier than that, he can't just go up to Voldemort and AK him and be done with it, but rather, part of Harry's ability to defeat Voldemort is that he *chooses* to do so. And from Book 1 he's made that choice. He doesn't have all the imformation yet at age 11, he doesn't understand about the Prophecy, but he sees that Voldemort is evil, knows that LV killed his parents and discovers he is the only person who has vanquished Voldemort in the past. This is enough for Harry to believe Voldemort must be defeated and that he plays a role in that defeat. And here is where Harry starts to show an uncanny ability to call to himself the people, creatures and objects that he needs in his fight aganst Voldemort. Harry calls this luck, but it seems more like a special power he possesses. An ability to call forth what is needed, when he needs it. In PS, it is his selfless desire to find the stone and the fact that Quirrell can't touch his skin. His protection is due to Lily's blood and Dumbledore's charm, but it is his own desire to do good that brings it forth. I suspect this blood protection would not be strong if Harry chose the path of someone like Tom Riddle. In COS, he brings Fawkes and Gryffindor's sword at a crucial moment. In POA Harry has mercy on Peter, and then produces the Patronus to save Sirius. In GOF, it is the Phoenix song, which is reputed to "increase the courage of the pure of heart and to strike fear into the hearts of the impure." (FBAWTFT,p.32). In OOTP Harry somewhat reluctantly agrees to teach the DA members, who prove to be crucial in the battle at the MOM & and then Harry expels Voldemort because of his loving feelings for Sirius. And that's another aspect of Harry's power--he is surrounded by people who are loyal to him because they love him. Even Dumbledore, who has tried to stay distant, feels love for him. And his friends would love him regardless of his power to vanquish Voldemort. In contrast, LV has loyal followers who fear him and fear his punishment. Some believe in his 'noble work' but no one is allowed to choose the agenda for how this work will be completed except Voldemort. *And* most of the DE's were only loyal so long as LV is in power. A corollary to this idea of Harry being born with the power to defeat LV is the fact that Dumbledore is chosen to hear the Prophecy. He could have heard the prophecy and washed his hands of the matter, but instead he takes on the arduous and thankless task of attempting to keep Harry safe until he is of age to go to Hogwarts, learn of his magical heritage and make his own choices. This is where the HBP comes in, I think. Dumbledore, specifically, was chosen to hear the Prophecy. Sybill divulges the Prophecy to no one until she meets with Dumbledore. Why? I think this relates back to his defeat of Grindelwald and the 'champion of mudbloods and muggleborns'. Dumbeldore has made it his mission in life to do the 'saving people' thing. He safeguards creatures at Hogwarts, gives opportunities to the downtrodden, and apparently has sacrificed his personal life in exchange for saving the WW. He was the only person in the WW with a power equal to Voldemort and therefore, the only person who could really safeguard Harry and attempt to be selfless in the process. Like others have said, this title is specifically written as Half Blood Prince rather than Half-Blood Prince, perhaps because it is about someone who is an advocate for all magical people and creatures. And the Prince part could be symbolic or literal. I like the idea discussed that DD is descended from GG, or at least is the 'spiritual heir', and therfore the Prince to Gryffindor's King. Jen Reese, who also likes the theory that Dudley could be the half- blood prince, but who doesn't want to read a whole book about it ;). From jlaming426 at aol.com Fri Jul 2 15:50:32 2004 From: jlaming426 at aol.com (jimlaming) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 15:50:32 -0000 Subject: The Opening Chapter of Book 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104069 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > vmonte wrote: > > Rowling has stated that someone will gain magical powers late in life > > and that it is very rare in the wizard world. Petunia and her family > > may be put in another life and death situation and Petunia's magic > > may emerge. She may end up killing someone important to the death > > eaters because she takes them unawares. > > Del's heart leaps with joy at the thought : > > LU-CIUS !! LU-CIUS !! > > Ooooh, sweeeet joy, can you imagine, Lucius being killed by a > Muggle-born almost-Squib ?! Ooooh, it's most probably not going to > happen, but it feels SOOOOOOOOOO GOOD !! Thanks so much Vivian ! > > Del Jim adds: And she doesn't even have to kill him, just better him in some humiliating way. I picture a scene where she is protecting her Dudders and thwarts some spell in front of Draco and/or Harry and/or Ron or any number of other witnesses. Can you imagine the conversation between Harry and Draco on the Hogwarts Express?!?! This could be simply precious. Jim Laming From dk59us at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 16:05:01 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 16:05:01 -0000 Subject: A different interpretation of the prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104070 Whizbang wrote: > > I thought the DEs tortured the Longbottoms for information about > > Voldemort. They were trying to find him or what had happened to > him. < > boyd: > Just reread GoF yesterday, and the reasons behind the torturing are > not actually known, just guessed at by the characters. > > But why exactly would the *Longbottoms* be the ones to ask about LV's > whereabouts, anyway? We haven't heard of them being at GH. > > Something's fishy there. > > --boyd Eustace_Scrubb: A few weeks ago there was a discussion on this general subject. My proposal then was that LV intended to eliminate both Harry and Neville when he set out to Godric's Hollow. (another poster called this the "King Herod syndrome," which I think is apt.) Although Dumbledore tells Harry that Voldemort felt Harry was the most likely subject of the prophecy (as the child of a muggle-born witch), that does not mean that Lord Thingy meant to kill only one of the two boys. But he could only be in one place at a time (unless time turners play a role) and he decided to kill Harry first. He never made it to his next destination, the Longbottoms. He may or may not have told his inner circle DEs why he was targetting these two families (why reveal to them that he was vulnerable?), but in any case once he disappeared they wanted to find him. Well, everyone knew quickly that the Potters were dead, so it would have appeared that Phase 1 had been successful. But the Longbottoms were just fine and their house hadn't been destroyed. So, to the DEs, it would seem logical that the Longbottoms had somehow repulsed their boss and maybe captured him. Hence, the more fanatical among the DEs (read: Bellatrix) attacked and tortured the Longbottoms--in vain, as they didn't have any such information. Now the key to this scenario is that the attack on the Longbottoms had to occur reasonably soon after GH...and there's considerable debate over whether that was the case. We're told that it happened just as everyone had begun to feel safe again in the absence of Voldemort. Some feel that would take several months, but I take the very open celebrations (so open that Vernon Dursley noticed them) that occur on the day and night of Harry's arrival at Privet Drive to mean that people felt safe. The other issue is whether the Longbottoms were in hiding and/or protected by a Fidelius charm. If the latter, it's probably too much of a coincidence for LV to get to both secretkeepers at the same time. Anyway, I think this _may_ explain how the Longbottoms came to be targetted by Bellatrix et. al. Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Fri Jul 2 16:07:26 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 16:07:26 -0000 Subject: CoS clues to Books 6 & 7 analysis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104071 > Diana: > > Fourth, Harry kills Tom Riddle by 'killing' the diary. Maybe the > way to kill Voldemort is by not attacking him directly, but by > attacking his source of power which is separate from him? I can't > remember anything Voldemort might own that would be considered a > source of power to him, but it's an idea, anyway. > snip < > Seventh, Harry's discovered a lot about Tom Riddle's past and this > might be very important to how he defeats Voldemort. Harry knows a > lot about Riddle, from his being a half-blood [which Harry revealed > to the DEs in the MoM at the end of OotP] to Riddle's overwhelming > desire to stay at Hogwarts instead of going back to an orphange. I > wonder if Harry's going to discover some heretofore unknown weakness > of Voldemort's because of what he knows about his past? < boyd: Maybe there's more to LV's powers than just being a powerful wizard, and it may be the weakness you mention. These don't come to Tom from being a powerful wizard: being the Heir of Slytherin, speaking parseltongue, finding the CoS and controlling the Basilisk, transforming first into LV (*after* entering the CoS as shown in Book 2) and then into unkillable!LV. DD can't do those things, and he's sure powerful. So Tom is not LV just because of power. And it's not just that he's the blood descendent of Slytherin, because each ancestor in the lineage between Salazar and Tom could have been the Heir of Slytherin, yet none of them were powerful dark lords (that we know of, at least). So what did it take for Tom Riddle to become the powerful dark lord? We can only guess, but my thought is that Tom Riddle was filled with hatred and self-loathing. Why? He hated mixed-bloods yet was a half-blood himself. He hated and killed his father, the only family he had. Shunned by other students, he hated them, too. He even hates DD, who probably was kind and tried to help him. In short, Tom hated the world for cursing him with his wretched life. And he wanted *revenge*. At his darkest hour, I bet Tom was visited by a vision of Salazar Slytherin, who led him to the CoS. Tom Riddle soon changed into Lord Voldemort, because he took on the power of Slytherin. Maybe he read an enchanted diary. Maybe there were books of dark magic spells and objects in the Chamber. Maybe he allowed the spirit of Slytherin to enter him. Dunno, but the Chamber Salazar built was the key. Why else call it the Chamber of *Secrets*? So the source of Tom's power? Slytherin. How to defeat LV? Separate him from Slytherin maybe? Or convince him to reject Slytherin's (and his own) hatred? Hmmm. There's a key in there somewhere. Of course, that still leaves the question of how Slytherin came by his dark powers! From kellyglessner at hotmail.com Fri Jul 2 15:49:24 2004 From: kellyglessner at hotmail.com (FrisbeeK) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 15:49:24 -0000 Subject: CoS and the HBP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104072 I've seen a lot of posts that speculate on the end of CoS as being the clue to the next book. But what if it's the beginning and middle of CoS that deals with Dobby and the Malfoys that is important. What if Dobby is the connection to the HBP? He says in CoS when he goes to warn Harry that house elves work for a lifetime in manors and castles. And throughout the books when Dobby tells Harry information, you get the impression he knows more than he tells. Not that Dobby is the HBP but what if he worked for the prince? I know Dobby worked for the Malfoys until he was caught warning Harry and then went to work in Hogwarts. What if the HBP is one of the Malfoys? In particular Lucius Malfoy. We know very little about the Malfoys other than they are "purebloods" and descendents of Slytherin. What if they're not all 'purebloods'? What if Lucius is like LV in that his mother was a muggle? What if one of the reasons he is so ferverently in support of LV's purebloods is because he's not one himself? Just a thought - haven't really worked the whole theory out. And don't know that I'd be too excited about having another story with Dobby who is sort of annoying; but he'd be the obvious connection to a "prince". "FrisbeeK" From aboutthe1910s at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 15:56:19 2004 From: aboutthe1910s at yahoo.com (aboutthe1910s) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 15:56:19 -0000 Subject: The HBP--Was Crazy, Crazy Theory About How Harry Will Vanquish Voldemort In-Reply-To: <20040702104106.13986.qmail@web25109.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104073 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Hans Andr?a wrote: ...it fits in precisely with my own theory, which > is on file in the Group's Essays: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Essays/ > It's called "Harry Potter - Christian Rosycorss in Jeans". I hope you'll > read it. Right, so I just read this, and on the seventh page it says that the Sixth Cosmic Plane (the parallel to the sixth book) is home to some called the Prodigal Son, and it just struck me that maybe Prodigal Son will equal Half Blood Prince in some way... (Someone who's read The Alchemical Wedding should provide more information about this Prodigal Son). a From thursdaymorning at outgun.com Fri Jul 2 15:59:14 2004 From: thursdaymorning at outgun.com (thursday morning) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 23:59:14 +0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Getting to Hogwarts Message-ID: <20040702155917.72611416068@ws5-2.us4.outblaze.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104074 > Asian_lovr2: > > > > The point is that from the Leaky Cauldron or Diagon Alley to Kings > Cross Station is not very far; 1.5 to 2 miles depending on where The > Leaky Cauldron actually is. Is it possible that Diagon Alley itself is 1.5 miles long? It is already playing with space so it won't leave an blank spot on muggle maps. We know there are a lot of stores there as it is *the* primary shopping location for the WW. We already know there is at least on side alley so as a whole it can't be a small area. Easily bordered with The Leaky Cauldron at one end and Kings Cross Station at the other, There could be a special arrival area just outside the station where all the students and families floo in with their trunks bypassing the foot traffic in Diagon Alley itself. I'm behind in my reading-do we ever see where the Weasley's come out when they floo there. We know you can floo directly to a particular store but they didn't say a store name in CoS, just "Diagon Alley." Doesn't it make sense then that there's a general arrival area? And why not put it right next to the train station to accomodate both students leaving and also anyone who comes into London by train? Thursday -- _______________________________________________ Outgun.com free e-mail @ www.outgun.com Check out our Premium services - POP3 downloading, e-mail forwarding, and 25MB mailboxes! Powered by Outblaze From quigonginger at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 16:47:39 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 16:47:39 -0000 Subject: Filk: They Ain't Seen Nifflers Yet Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104075 It has come to my attention that Prof. Grubbly-Plank has not yet had a solo. So here it is: They Ain't Seen Nifflers Yet. To the tune of You Ain't Seen Nothing Yet by Bachman-Turner Overdrive. To CMC (Creative Magical Creature?) After Hagrid is exposed as a half-giant by Rita Skeeter, Prof. Grubbly-Plank is called to fill in. She sings: I got a call from Albus Said Hagrid went away, Was sure that he was comin' back soon, But he needed me today. I said that any job's a good job, So I took what I could get, He looked at me with big blue eyes, And said, They ain't seen nifflers yet, Wh-Whilhelmina, they just ain't seen nifflers yet. Worked with skrewts all year, but would rather forget. Wh-Whilhelmina, they just ain't seen nifflers yet. I knew I could do better Than blast-ended skrewts for sure. I needed something special. I picked unicorns so pure. I say that any job's a good job, So I took what I could get, Hagrid came back: I met his eyes And said, They ain't seen nifflers yet. H-H-H-Hagrid, they just ain't seen nifflers yet. There's something they won't never wanna forget, H-H-H-Hagrid, they just ain't seen nifflers yet. (repeat) Ginger, wondering if anyone else is sololess. From aldhelm at earthlink.net Fri Jul 2 17:10:40 2004 From: aldhelm at earthlink.net (carin_in_oh) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 17:10:40 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Cemetery and Hogwarts: A History In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104076 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jimlaming" wrote: ... > ON A TOTALLY DIFFERENT SUBJECT > > My off the wall prediction: I predict HHR will have a reason to go > into the Hogwarts Cemetery, perhaps to discover Harry's parents > gravesite, and will find Godric Gryffindor's grave. Somewhere on his > headstone will be the words "Half Blood Prince." I've already declared for GG as HBP, and I agree that we are long overdue for learning some of what's in _Hogwarts: A History_. JKR and Hermione have been teasing us with that book for five books now and I WANT TO READ IT!!! (Sorry for shouting in frustration :) I think having a concrete historical feature of the Hogwarts grounds (i.e. the graveyard) lead the Trio finally to explore Hogwarts history in depth would work very nicely as a plot device. And, as you say, a few strategically-placed gravestones could lead to (or link) Hogwarts' recent history (the Potters) with its ancient history (the Founders) and maybe even its mid-range history (Tom Riddle). Carin From lists at dnbaccounting.co.uk Fri Jul 2 17:11:37 2004 From: lists at dnbaccounting.co.uk (Beth Currie) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 18:11:37 +0100 Subject: JKR website (again) In-Reply-To: <1088277364.7616.19331.m18@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002201c46057$a6a7c2d0$de00a8c0@bethcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 104077 Don't know if anyone else has noticed this yet, but the door now has its "Do Not Disturb" sign back. I assume this means the next time it opens will be to reveal some more hints about Book 6. Is it really sad to admit that I'm checking it at regular intervals and getting quite excited about what will be on there next?! Beth From quigonginger at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 17:12:41 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 17:12:41 -0000 Subject: Filk: Firebolt Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104078 Firebolt to the tune of Kodachrome by Paul Simon. To Gail: Filk on, babe. Harry sings: When I think back On D.J. Umbridge, High Inquis'tor, It's a wonder That chick had such gall. And though I vowed that her detentions Wouldn't hurt me none. Her "hem-hem"ing drove me up the wall. Firebolt! It gives me acceleration. It gives me such great elation. Makes me think I can win each game I play, oh, yeah. I got a top-notch broomstick. It's better than the Slyths' by half, So Umbridge, don't take my Firebolt away. Though it took all the girls the Gryffs Had playing Quidditch To keep the twins and me out of that fight. You know that black and blue Were never Draco's colours. He looked better bouncing furry white. Firebolt! It gives me acceleration. It gives me such great elation. Makes me think I can win each game I play, oh, yeah. I got a top-notch broomstick. It's better than the Slyths' by half, So Umbridge, don't take my Firebolt away. (repeat with elaboration) Ginger, on a filk roll, it seems. From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 2 17:15:24 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 17:15:24 -0000 Subject: Getting to Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <20040702155917.72611416068@ws5-2.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104079 "thursday morning" wrote: [snipped heavily: you have been warned] > Is it possible that Diagon Alley itself is 1.5 miles long? > ... Easily bordered > with The Leaky Cauldron at one end and Kings Cross Station at the > other So why would the Weasleys et al have to travel by Ministry car in HP&POA? Sorry but I think canon disproves your admittedly lovely theory. > I'm behind in my reading-do we ever see > where the Weasley's come out when they floo there. We know you can > floo directly to a particular store but they didn't say a store name > in CoS, just "Diagon Alley." Doesn't it make sense then that > there's a general arrival area? My impression was that people generally ended up in the "Leaky Cauldron" but I could be vastly wrong. AFAICR we never actually found out where anyone except for Harry arrived. HTH HAND -- Phil From jlaming426 at aol.com Fri Jul 2 17:23:41 2004 From: jlaming426 at aol.com (jimlaming) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 17:23:41 -0000 Subject: The Dursleys at Risk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104080 Ms Mo Me wrote: I was thinking that a prime target for Voldemort would be the Dursleys. The reason Harry has the lasting protection is because he spends time with his blood related family. So, if Voldemort figures this out, wouldn't his first aim be to kill the Dursleys?> jenny from ravenclaw responded: I am sure if Voldemort had access to the Dursleys, he would have disposed of them quite a while ago. If someone is acting as Secret Keeper for the Dursleys (of which they'd have no idea), he'd never be able to find them no matter how long and hard he looked. I also agree with those who say that the Dursleys are protected by the same magic that protects Harry. We also know that their home is watched quite closely by the Wizarding community. -----> Carol: If the Dursley home were protected by a Fidelius Charm, nobody would be able to find it, not even Muggles like Aunt Marge, and the Weasleys could never have entered it through the fireplace. But how would Voldemort know about the Dursleys, who are Muggles, after all? I think that's one reason Dumbledore placed Harry with them (the charm that protects him as long as he's with his mother's blood kindred is of course the other reason, but DD placed that charm himself). If Harry had been raised by a kindly wizard family, the secret would have been much harder to keep, and he'd have had to remain in hiding for his first eleven years. Placing him with the Dursleys, with no knowledge of his own background, amounts to hiding him in plain sight where Voldemort would never think to look. I do think that the protective charm extends to the Dursleys--otherwise Petunia would never have taken Harry in--but they're not watched by the whole wizarding community, only by members of the Order and to some extent, the MoM, on the lookout for underage magic in Muggle communities (and particularly the house where Harry lives, or so it seems). Carol -------> Jim observes: Voldie or his followers could have found out about Harry and where he is easily since Harry entered Hogwarts. Fudge knows and Malfoy could easily get that information. The Weasley Family and thus Peter, knew where Harry was as evidenced when the twins and Ron "drive" to rescue Harry in COS. Crabb, Goyle and Draco know Harry lives with muggles and could find out who and where. Snape and Lupin both intimate their knowledge of Harry's home life. Then Fudge, as part of Harry's "trial" for using magic to repel the Dementors, entered into evidence where Harry lived. After Harry is outed into the WW, he can be found if one wants to look for him. I surmise that knowledge of his whereabouts does not indicate an ability to reach him. Especially when he is IN the Dursley home. And I agree that the Dursley's benefit from that same protection. Out on a limb: Petunia will be with Dudley, away from home, and Dudley will come into magical danger. Petunia will defend him with magic. Does she have a wand? Olivander would know. Jim Laming From karenoc1 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 18:29:53 2004 From: karenoc1 at yahoo.com (karenoc1) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 18:29:53 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?How_Rare_are_Muggle-borns=3F_and_Analysis_of_=93Purity=94_in_the_Order?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104081 Please forgive this *very* the long post!!! All of this discussion about the halfblood prince has got me thinking about the rarity of Muggle-born wizards. I apologize if this has been discussed before, but it seems to me that we have seen very few purely Muggle-born wizards throughout the books. I believe the only ones we can be sure of are Hermione and Moaning Myrtle; is it likely that all of the students attacked in CoS were Muggle-born? Here are the attacks: Mrs. Norris ? cat of a Squib; probably an accidental attack. Colin Creevey ? father is a milkman; don't have enough information on his mother. Possibly he and Dennis are pure Muggle-borns. Justin Finch-Fletchley ? probably Muggle-born. Hermione ? Muggle-born. Penelope Clearwater ? not enough information. Moaning Myrtle ? Muggle-born student who died when CoS originally opened. So I'm thinking that just as Tom Riddle sought to complete what he considered "Salazar Slytherin's noble work" (Scholastic Cos 312), Harry is the living representation of Dumbledore's philosophy that purity of blood is meaningless. And Dumbledore has created a Hogwarts where Harry has more opportunity to meet and befriend Muggle- borns and halfbloods. This brings me to an analysis of the original Order of the Phoenix; how many were purebloods and why? Alastor Moody ? probably pureblood? (Still alive at conclusion of OoP) Albus Dumbledore ? probably pureblood. JKR's point is stronger if Dumbledore, who believes that the purity of blood is meaningless, *is* a pureblood. (Still alive at conclusion of OoP) Dedalus Diggle ? don't know; possibly a pureblood. (Still alive at conclusion of OoP) Marlene McKinnon ? don't know. (Still alive at conclusion of OoP) Frank Longbottom ? Pureblood; Dumbledore calls Neville a pureblood on p. 842 of Scholastic OoP, so Frank must be a pureblood. (Still alive at conclusion of OoP) Alice Longbottom ? Pureblood; same rationale. (Still alive at conclusion of OoP) Emmeline Vance ? don't know. (Still alive at conclusion of OoP) Remus Lupin ? probably pureblood? Half-breed? (Still alive at conclusion of OoP) Benjy Fenwick ? don't know. (Dead prior to PS/SS ? only found bits of him) Edgar Bones ? probably pureblood. (Dead prior to PS/SS) Sturgis Podmore ? don't know. (Dead at conclusion of OoP) Caradoc Dearborn ? don't know. (Possibly dead prior to PS/SS ? body never found) Rubeus Hagrid ? Halfblood; half-breed--half-wizard, half-giant. (Still alive at conclusion of OoP) Elphias Doge ? don't know. (Memory block here; is he still alive at end of OoP?) Gideon Prewett ? Pureblood. If the Weasley children are all purebloods, then Molly Prewett Weasley must have been a pureblood before marrying Arthur. (Dead prior to PS/SS) Fabian Prewett ? Pureblood. (Dead prior to PS/SS) Aberforth Dumbledore ? probably pureblood; is he a wizard of a Squib? Dorcas Meadowes ? don't know. Killed personally by LV; possibly a halfblood or Muggle-born. (Dead prior to PS/SS) Sirius Black ? Pureblood. (Dead at conclusion of OoP) Peter Pettigrew ? probably pureblood; would LV let him be a DE otherwise? (Still alive at conclusion of OoP) James Potter ? Pureblood. Harry is called a halfblood by Dumbledore on p. 842 of Scholastic OoP, so James must have been a pureblood--assuming Lily was Muggle-born. (Dead prior to PS/SS) Lily Potter ? Muggle-born, as far as we know. (Dead prior to PS/SS) Mundungus Fletcher ? don't know. (Still alive at conclusion of OoP) Arabella Figg ? Squib. (Still alive at conclusion of OoP). I may be wrong, but I believe that it is likely that a number of the "don't knows" from above were either halfbloods or purebloods, and that is only with Dumbledore's consistent leadership of Hogwarts that moreMuggle-borns are sought and accepted at the school. *Or* the lack of definitive Muggle-borns could mean that a Muggle-born wizard is (and always has been) extremely rare. Otherwise, we would see more of them in the past and present Order. The current Order also includes: Nymphadora Tonks ? Halfblood. (Still alive at conclusion of OoP) Kingsley Shacklebolt ? don't know. (Still alive at conclusion of OoP) Hestia Jones ? don't know. (I believe she is still alive at the conclusion of OoP) Arthur Weasley ? Pureblood. (Still alive at conclusion of OoP) Molly Weasley ? Pureblood, for rationality see above. (Still alive at conclusion of OoP) Bill Weasly, Charlie Weasley, Fred and George Weasley ? Purebloods. (Still alive at conclusion of OoP) Minerva McGonagall ? don't know. (Still alive at conclusion of OoP) Severus Snape ? don't know; he is an excellent Occlumens and could have hidden from LV a halfblood parentage. (Still alive at conclusion of OoP) So it would have been useful in the past, and considering the attitude of Fudge, and still useful in the present to recruit as many pureblood wizards as possible into the order. Who else would be better able to dissuade the wizarding populous that purity of blood is meaningless? And how better to overcome any deep-rooted prejudices in members of the current order than by making them work (and fight) alongside of halfbloods and Muggle-borns? And what about the DAs? Harry Potter ? Halfblood (Gryffindor) Hermione Granger ? Muggle-born, as noted above (Gryffindor) Ron Weasley ? Pureblood (Gryffindor) Ginny Weasley ? Pureblood (Gryffindor) [Fred and George Weasley ? Purebloods (Gryffindor) ?currently in Order of Phoenix] Neville Longbottom ? Pureblood (Gryffindor) Dean Thomas ? Halfblood (Gryffindor) Seamus Finnegan ? Halfblood (Gryffindor) Lavender Brown ? don't know (Gryffindor) Parvati Patil ? don't know, but I'd guess pureblood (Gryffindor) Lee Jordan ? don't know (Gryffindor) Katie Bell ? don't know (Gryffindor) Alicia Spinnet ? don't know (Gryffindor) Angelina Johnson ? don't know (Gryffindor) Colin Creevey ? probably Muggle-born (Gryffindor) Dennis Creevey ? probably Muggle-born (Gryffindor) Padma Patil ? don't know (Ravenclaw) Luna Lovegood ? don't know (Ravenclaw) Cho Chang ? don't know, but again I'd guess pureblood (Ravenclaw) [Marietta Edgecomb ? don't know (Ravenclaw) ?may not be a DA anymore] Anthony Goldstein ? don't know (Ravenclaw) Michael Corner ? don't know (Ravenclaw) Terry Boot ? don't know (Ravenclaw) Zacharias Smith ? don't know (Hufflepuff) Ernie Macmillan ? Pureblood (Hufflepuff) Justin Finch-Fletchley ? probably Muggle-born (Hufflepuff) Hannah Abbott ? don't know (Hufflepuff) Susan Bones ? probably pureblood (Hufflepuff) I wonder how much diversity we'd see if we could fill in the don't-knows? Anyway, I thought it might be easier to analyze the members if they were all listed here, although it would be much easier if I could insert a spreadsheet! Does anyone have any thoughts? karenoc1 From gregory_lynn at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 18:31:23 2004 From: gregory_lynn at yahoo.com (gregory_lynn) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 18:31:23 -0000 Subject: CoS and the HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104082 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "FrisbeeK" wrote: > What if Dobby is the connection to the HBP? > "FrisbeeK" Heck, what if Dobby *is* the HBP? I mean, he's not like other house elves right? Maybe he's the result of an illicit relationship between Lucius and Dobby's mother. Not that I believe that for a second. I think the relevant portions of the Dobby/Malfoy relationship are A) Harry is aided by a servant of the Malfoys, and B) Harry "saves" that servant from the Malfoys. I see potential for a similar thing to happen with Ratboy/Voldie. From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Fri Jul 2 18:31:20 2004 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 18:31:20 -0000 Subject: FILK: Some Day The Prince Will Come Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104083 Some Day The Prince Will Come To the tune of Some Day My Prince Will Come, from Snow White Dedicated, gingerly of course, to Ginger Some day the Prince will come Some day we'll learn his name But till then to our listgroups we'll go To unleash all our speculative flow Someone Jo springs on us Could be a guy we know Remus with half blood Evans or even Dud His royal descent will show .. - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From manawydan at ntlworld.com Fri Jul 2 18:30:33 2004 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 19:30:33 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] 24 hours again References: <1088693332.57952.16627.m17@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000401c46062$a9982b00$184a6d51@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 104084 Kneasy wrote: > He's heard the Prophecy but tells no-one about it. He makes his > deductions. Meanwhile the eavesdropper hears only the first > part of the Prophecy (how much of it? We need to know!). It then > takes *2 years* for Voldy to react. Why? If the eavesdropper is a > Voldy supporter and passes the message on, that plus Peter (who > according to Sirius worked with the baddies for 2 years before the > GH debacle) leads one to think that he would have made his strike > much sooner. After spending the last 24 hours or so pondering the Prophecy end, I've got to admit that I'm more and more puzzled by some of the aspects of it. Why, first of all, did Dumbledore do Sybil's job interview in the Hog's Head? He admits that it was a known haunt of dodgy characters which, in the circumstances of the time, would have made going there on the unwise side. Did he do it as a subtle insult to Sybil, whose qualities he admits he didn't value until she started prophesying? Seems a bit extreme. Would he have _really_ done a job interview in the public bar? I'd have thought not. So how did the eavesdropper come to be eavesdropping anyway on a conversation between Dumbledore and a person thought to be of little significance. Likewise, who actually discovered the eavesdropper? A lucky coincidence, given that Sybil's prophecy wouldn't have taken _that_ long to speak. Who, indeed, was the eavesdropper? Some people I know have suggested Mundungus Fletcher (but if he had been, why would a member or at least associate of the Order have spilled the beans to Voldemort? And why would Dumbledore have named him among the first people to contact when Voldemort arose again?) Others have suggested Peter (but at the time he was a trusted member of the Order, who wouldn't have been thrown out. And if he had overheard it, as soon as Dumbledore found out that Voldemort knew what had been overheard, Peter's cover would have been blown). Snape is a possibility, but only if (as I've suggested), he wasn't working for Dumbledore at the time. If he was a secret spy for the Order and reported the prophecy to Voldemort, he's never going to be trusted again. So once again we're left with an unknown person. I _think_ I recall that Dumbledore describes [unknown] as reporting straight back to his (so we at least know the gender) master so there's no delay there. But the delay in Voldemort's making his mind up is indeed strange (he doesn't seem the sort to worry about a few broken eggs, why not kill both infants if you're not sure? Lots of material for conspiracies there, including the outside chance that Dumbledore had some foreknowledge that Sybil was the real thing, and used a charm to _induce_ her to summon up the awen in the pub in the knowledge that the first part _would_ get reported back and induce Voldemort to make the fatal move? Or is that a step just too far? Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 18:47:47 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 18:47:47 -0000 Subject: The Floo Network and the Gryfindor Common Room In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104085 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Bren wrote: > Perhaps there are all sorts of charms/old magic protection which > create a barrier in front of the Gryffindor fireplace. ... > Beth responded: > I've noticed, though, that we never see anyone else use the > fireplaces at Hogwarts. Molly doesn't use it to yell at or visit the > kids, Dumbledore sends Bill with the message for Arthur instead of > of flooing, etc. I suspect that in general the fireplaces at > Hogwarts, or at least the student area ones, don't work. However, > Sirius is aware of some loophole from his marauder days that lets > him slip by. > Carol notes: > But notice that Snape summons Lupin to his office using Floo powder > and in PoA Umbridge reaches into the Gryffindor fireplace to grab > Sirius by the hair, presumably intending to pull his entire body > into the fireplace in OoP. ... edited... > > Carol, ... Asian_lovr2: First a general comment- Look at the Floo/Fireplace Network as a telephone system. Then exand that to include a large private telephone network similar to what you would find in a large office. The internal office telephone system is tied to but independant of the public telephone system. Even when the public system is not working, the private inter-office system still works. Also, it is the company who controls the inter-office private system. They can make their own rules that are independant of the public system. Example, the can block certain calling prefixes for individual users. They can determine who gets to use the system as an intercom or interoffice phone, and who has access to the external public phone system. So, back to Hogwarts; Hogwarts controls the restrictions on their inter-castle Floo system. They are free to allow full-body travel while at the same time restrict access to people outside Hogwarts. I see no condflict here. As far as Molly calling or students calling home, I would counter by asking how often you called home when you were in college, or boarding school if you went to boarding school? Not very often I think, probably no more than was mandatory. Also, to make an outgoing call, students much have a supply of Floo Powder. In addition, part of the restriction may be allowing incoming calls in an emergency, but restricting outgoing calls. Other than Harry using Umbridge's fireplace have we ever seen anyone make an outgoing call? In additon, I think parents learned a long time ago not to suddenly appear in the common room fireplace and embarass their kids in front of their friends and classmates. The Floo Network doesn't seem to give 'callers' much privacy. Imagine having the whole common room here your mother tell you to be sure and put on clean underwear everyday, or to be sure and rub potion on that nasty rash. Mother can be so insensitive. Now to directly address Carol's concerns about Umbridge. What was Umbridge planning to do if she did manage to get hold of Sirius's head? I really don't think she could have pulled him through and into the Hogwarts castle. That seems to go directly against Hogwarts protections. So, I speculate that she was planning to hold Sirius until the Floo Network could trace his location. That seems a very dangerous thing to do on Umbridges apart. I can speculate that there are way that Sirius could have harmed her through the Floo Network, but that would indeed be highly speculative. However, I think Sirius could have easily overpowered her and gotten away. Although, she may have been able to lift the protecting restriction, but if it's that easy to do, the protections certainly aren't very strong. Plus, I think she would have had to lift the restriction on the Gryffindor fireplace. She would have had to first pull him into the Gryffindor fire, then from there pull him into her own fireplace. Don't see how that could be done very easily. So, I'm back to her holding him until he could be traced, or she could summon help to go make the necessary changes to the castle protections and Floo Network so Sirius could be captured. In the end though, more and more, I think there are some question that just weren't meant to be asked. Steve/asian_lovr2 From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 19:26:47 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 19:26:47 -0000 Subject: The Dursleys at Risk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104086 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Ms Mo Me wrote: > I was thinking that a prime target for Voldemort would be the > Dursleys. The reason Harry has the lasting protection is because he > spends time with his blood related family. So, if Voldemort figures > this out, wouldn't his first aim be to kill the Dursleys?> > jenny from ravenclaw responded: > I am sure if Voldemort had access to the Dursleys, he would have > disposed of them quite a while ago. If someone is acting as Secret > Keeper for the Dursleys ..., he'd never be able to find them ..... > > > > I also agree with those who say that the Dursleys are protected by > the same magic that protects Harry. We also know that their home is > watched quite closely by the Wizarding community. > > > > jenny > > Carol: > If the Dursley home were protected by a Fidelius Charm, nobody would > be able to find it, not even Muggles like Aunt Marge, and the > Weasleys could never have entered it through the fireplace. > > But how would Voldemort know about the Dursleys, who are Muggles, > after all? ...edited.. > > I do think that the protective charm extends to the Dursleys > --otherwise Petunia would never have taken Harry in-- but > they're not watched by the whole wizarding community, only by > members of the Order and to some extent, the MoM, on the lookout for > underage magic in Muggle communities (and particularly the house > where Harry lives, or so it seems). > > Carol asian_lovr2: Carol, your slipping; must be old age creeping up on you. Voldemort does know about the Dursleys. And to address another issue raised by someone else, Dumbledore did add the Protection of Blood, to the protection that Harry already had from his mother's sacrifice. Dumbledore performed additional spells to enhance the protection Harry got from his mother. --- Quote - GoF - Am Ed HB - pg 657 --- Voldemort speaks- "But how to get at Harry Potter? For he as been better protected than I think even he knows, protected in say DEVISED BY Dumbledore long ago, when it fell to him to arrange the boy's future. DUMBLEDORE INVOKED an ancient magic, to ensure the boy's protectin as long as he is in his relations care. Not even I can touch him there." - - - End Quote - - - So Dumbledore /devised/ and /invoked/ ancient magic to protect Harry while he is in his relations care. Big-V knows about the magic and he knows about the relations; what else is there to know? I think this is also confirmed when Dumbledore and Harry have their 'heart-to-heart' at the end of OotP. For what it's worth, I too think the protections work both ways. The Protection of Blood protect everyone of that blood. The big flaw in the 'Blood Protection' plan is that in order to be protected, you have to stay at home. Dudley could be in danger at school, Petunia that the grocery story, and Vernon at work. I've always thought there would be a direct attack on the Dursleys, but now I wonder if the Dementor attack was it, or if a bigger scarier attack is still coming? For what it's worth. Steve/Asian_lovr2 From ExSlytherin at aol.com Fri Jul 2 19:26:21 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 19:26:21 -0000 Subject: Back to Snape was: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104087 > Marianne wrote: > Except for the "handsome" part, the above paragraph would cover a > lot of the Snape fans, too! He's dangerous, he's mysterious, he > billows, he's vampirish, he's damaged...Need I go on? Kneasy again: > > Too true. But most of them are seeing Alan Rickman, not the grotty old Sevvy that JKR envisaged. Mind you, even so he may cause a maiden's heart to skip a beat, that's why I wrote of the failed affair between him and Lily. Broken hearted, she was - spurned by S. Snape, dedicated to his studies. (see post 77800). > Marianne again: > Oh, sure there's a definite Rickman influence now, but I've been on > this board since before the first movie came out. Trust me, Snape has always had his share of people who find him attractive. > Mandy here: While I agree that many, if not most fans, have been seduced by Rickman as Snape, I found myself very attracted to canon Snape first. I don't think Alan Rickman is good-looking. Sexy ? absolutely! ? Very sexy. But then I consider Snape to be sexy, too. Rickman doesn't have movie star good looks, and his Snape is not good looking either. Thank God! Rickman looks physically a lot like the way I envisioned canon Snape before the films came out. And, imo, Rickman has brilliantly captured Snape's nasty temperament and his greasy and grotty physical being. The only difference I can see between Jo's Snape and Rickman's Snape is the fact that Rickman has movie star charisma, where Snape does not, but what Snape does have is a great equalizer, power. I find Snape, Jo's Snape or canon Snape, attractive because of his power and his ability to honestly not give a damn about anyone else. That self-assured confidence is attractive regardless of what the man may look like. Plus Snape is a bad boy, and there's nothing more attractive than a very naughty boy! Mandy, who knows beauty is in the eye of the beholder. ;-) From erader45 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 18:41:30 2004 From: erader45 at yahoo.com (erader45) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 18:41:30 -0000 Subject: CoS clues to Books 6 & 7 analysis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104088 David wrote: > I'm leaning to GG being the half blood prince, or prince of half > bloods, and Harry is a blood relative. That sounds okay, but if GG is the prince of half-bloods, then why are all of the Weasleys (purebloods) and Hermione (muggleborn) in Gryffindor? From jacobalfredo at hotmail.com Fri Jul 2 19:17:50 2004 From: jacobalfredo at hotmail.com (albusthewhite) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 19:17:50 -0000 Subject: CoS clues to Books 6 & 7 analysis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104089 > Gina : I have always believed this. Initially I believed Harry was somehow a > descendent of both SS and GG and THAT is why he could "choose" which house > he belonged in. I know this theory has been shot down many times by > interviews saying Harry is not related to LV and that he has no living > relatives but the Dursleys, but Tom Riddle is in fact dead so I stand firm > to my theory that Harry carries the blood of both! Albus the White: That's very interesting. I have always assumed that Harry could choose between houses because he shares qualities or blood with Godric and that his connection with Slytherin came through the effects of his encounter with Voldemort. In CoS: "'You can speak Parseltongue, Harry,' said Dumbledore calmly, 'because Lord Voldemort - who *is* the last remaining ancestor of Salazar Slytherin - can speak Parseltongue. Unless I'm much mistaken, he transferred some of his own powers to you the night he gave you that scar. Not something he intended to do, I'm sure...' 'Voldemort put a bit of himself in *me*?' Harry said, thunderstruck." (332-3, USHB, emphasis Jo's) I believe that the reciprocal occurred when Voldemort used Harry's blood in GoF to reconstitute himself. (New and Improved Dehydrated Dark Lord! Just add blood!) Now not only does Harry carry some of LV in him, but vice versa, and that's where I think the crux will be in the climax - that spell will turn out to LV's downfall, not just because he used Harry's blood, but also because he used Wormtail's flesh - Wormtail, who owes Harry his life. --albus the white From ekrbdg at msn.com Fri Jul 2 19:39:37 2004 From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:39:37 -0400 Subject: Harry's Protection at the Dursley's was (Re: The Dursleys at Risk) References: Message-ID: <061001c4606c$50e2ecc0$58e6f943@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 104090 --- Quote - GoF - Am Ed HB - pg 657 --- Voldemort speaks- "But how to get at Harry Potter? For he as been better protected than I think even he knows, protected in say DEVISED BY Dumbledore long ago, when it fell to him to arrange the boy's future. DUMBLEDORE INVOKED an ancient magic, to ensure the boy's protectin as long as he is in his relations care. Not even I can touch him there." - - - End Quote - - - The big flaw in the 'Blood Protection' plan is that in order to be protected, you have to stay at home. Dudley could be in danger at school, Petunia that the grocery story, and Vernon at work. I've always thought there would be a direct attack on the Dursleys, but now I wonder if the Dementor attack was it, or if a bigger scarier attack is still coming? For what it's worth. Steve/Asian_lovr2 *Kimberly's comment* Can someone clear something up for me ? I didn't read the prophecy as "Harry is safe AT the Dursley's or that he can't be harmed there". I took it as, "As long as he could call it home (doesn't say as long as he is AT home), the protection was in place." But now, according to Steve's quote above, I am unclear. Is Voldemort mistaken and misinterpreting the ancient magic ? Does he think he can't hurt Harry AT the Dursley's or is he aware that Harry has to be able to call the Dursley's home in order to have protection. The way I read it, there's a HUGE difference. If it were that Harry (and the Dursley's if they're indeed included) is only protected AT the Dursley's, then that would mean Harry has NO protection outside of there. We know that isn't true based on the incidents that Voldemort hasn't been able to touch Harry. Right ? Any comments ? Insights ? Kimberly [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ekrbdg at msn.com Fri Jul 2 19:45:21 2004 From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:45:21 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's Protection at the Dursley's was (Re: The Dursleys at Risk) References: <061001c4606c$50e2ecc0$58e6f943@hppav> Message-ID: <062e01c4606d$1de40100$58e6f943@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 104091 Correction ! I didn't mean prophecy, I meant the explanation that Dumbledore gave regarding his Mother's protection. Sorry ! *Kimberly's comment* Can someone clear something up for me ? I didn't read the prophecy as "Harry is safe AT the Dursley's or that he can't be harmed there". I took it as, "As long as he could call it home (doesn't say as long as he is AT home), the protection was in place." But now, according to Steve's quote above, I am unclear. Is Voldemort mistaken and misinterpreting the ancient magic ? Does he think he can't hurt Harry AT the Dursley's or is he aware that Harry has to be able to call the Dursley's home in order to have protection. The way I read it, there's a HUGE difference. If it were that Harry (and the Dursley's if they're indeed included) is only protected AT the Dursley's, then that would mean Harry has NO protection outside of there. We know that isn't true based on the incidents that Voldemort hasn't been able to touch Harry. Right ? Any comments ? Insights ? Kimberly [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 19:44:26 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 19:44:26 -0000 Subject: Talking porttraits/photographs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104092 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mrflynn6" wrote: > I looked in the VFAQ and did a search and didn't find anything on > this, so hear goes: > > Why can people talk with portraits and not photographs? Why not have > a portrait done of Harry's parents (or anyone for that matter) so > Harry can converse with them? Obviously the previous Headmasters are > important people, but the what about the Fat Lady and all the other > portraits in the castle and other places? Could Harry have portraits > done of Sirius and hang one at the headquarters and one his dorm room > for information about the progress of the Order? > > > Just an odd though after rereading the series, again. > > mrflynn Asian_lovr2: Here is an old post of mine on this suject. This post and a very long detailed thread are located in this group but they are pretty far back, and it would take quite a while to find them. To save everyone time, I'm posting it again. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - bboy_mn: A theory... ...just a theory. I think images in artwork are like actors in a play. The difference between photos and paintings is like the difference between the actors in a TV commercial and the actors in a film biography. The actors in a TV commercial represent their characters in a 15, 30 or 60 second window of time. Hence, the photo that Colin Creevey took of Harry and Lockhart in the school courtyard, continues to reflect both Harry and Lockhart's attitudes and demeanor in the tiny window of time. To extend that, you could say that photos have context. The context is the intended purpose of that photo. The photo of Lockhart and Harry reflect the context of the moment in which the photo was taken. As an illustration, think of photos of Harry that appeared in various publications taking on a context in relation to the context of the article that accompanied them. If the article shows Harry in a bad light, then the photo of Harry looks shifty and devious. If the article shows Harry in a good light, then the accompanying photo shows Harry bright eyed and smiling. Again, this re-enforces my belief that, to a limited extent, photo images are like actors in a very short play, they reflect or play out the context of the moment. One important fact about paintings is that the enchanted painting actually contains a piece of living tissue from the person represented in that painting (from an interview with JKR, which I haven't been able to find again). The living essence of the person is embedded in the painting. This and the magical complexity of creating an enchanted painting, make it a more powerful and fully developed magical object. Using the actor analogy, a painting reflects a much greater context. Again, I equate this is as the equivalent of an actor portraying a person in their complete detailed film biography, where the context is the entire lifetime and personality of the person. Not just a tiny snapshot, but a window into the very essence of that person, his personality, his actions/history, and his life. Because this enchanted painting contain the actual living essence of the person in the form of living tissue, the actor does not play an idealized version of the person; he portrays both the light and the dark; the good and the bad. On a more superficial level, a painting is a much more complex magical object than a photo. It seems that exposed film can be developed in a potion and the images become animated, but not really much more that animated and reflecting the context of the moment in simple and superficial ways. A painting, on the other hand, I view as magically much more complex. It takes a exceptionally talented artwizard, perhaps magical paints, enchanted canvas, assorted potion, spells, and charms, and as I mentioned, some living tissue from the person being painted. So, you get a more complex and more complete final product, because it requires an infinitely (figuratively) more complex process. I amend this idea with these additional thoughts- I've always thought that the portraits were not the full and complete personality of the person pictured. They are not the person to perfection; as I've previously said, they are more like actors playing a role. However, they are exceptional actors with exceptional insight into the character they are playing. We see many muggle stage and screen actors playing the parts of historic figures, and capturing their essence and character extremely well. The living portraits have the added advantage of having a piece of the living person to draw on; some true living essence of the person does exist in the portrait. But I don't think a portrait could ever be quite as good as the real person. I guess you could sum it up by saying that portraits very accurately portray; portray but don't become. Portraits are actors in two senses; they are playing the role of the person IN the portrait, and they are playing the role OF a portrait. When the Fat Lady runs from Sirius after he slashed her portrait, it isn't because she feared for her life, because she isn't alive. She didn't fear for great bodily harm, because she has no body; she is animated paint. Although, it does indicate that she was damaged, so she could certainly have some fear of damage. However, I think more than anything she was feeling a sense of shame. She could no longer fulfill her role as 'portrait', she could no longer contribute the aesthetic beauty and personal essence she was created for. When she was restored and returned to duty as guard of the Gryffindor entrance, the sense of fear she displayed most convincingly was just her playing her actor's role as the Fat Lady; Actor's role as both human personification and physical portrait. I guess the point is that we have to weigh the reactions of living portraits against two measures; one, the role of the character they are playing, two, the role of a work of art. Just a few thoughts. Steve/bboy_mn - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hope that helps. Steve/(now)asian_lovr2 From melclaros at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 19:45:32 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 19:45:32 -0000 Subject: Back to Snape was: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104093 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mandy" wrote: Plus Snape is a bad boy, and there's nothing more > attractive than a very naughty boy! >From a Snape fan long before movies: But Snape's NOT a 'bad boy'. Not in the stereotypical 'bad boy' mode that one immediately envisions when someone says "I'm/he's/she's attracted to that 'bad boy' type." In fact the more we learn about him, especially about his youth, the less of a 'bad boy' he looks. Sure, he's done some *bad things* but that's not the same thing at all as fitting into the black leather and motorcycle mode. If ANYONE in canon fits that picture, it's Sirius. Mel From cressida_tt at hotmail.com Fri Jul 2 19:31:30 2004 From: cressida_tt at hotmail.com (cressida_tt) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 19:31:30 -0000 Subject: Paying for Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104094 Alora wrote: > Does one pay for Hogwarts? Yes, Harry has a small > fortune in gold in Gringotts, but we never see or hear > how Hagrid/Harry pays tuition to go to Hogwarts. I > thought about the Weasleys, and how many books, parchments, > quills, robes etc that they need, and how much that > must cost. Add to that actual tuition and it must cost > a small fortune! How does a poorer family make it? In all of the other popular boarding school sagas,such as those by Angela Brazil and Enid Blyton (these featured heavily in my own childhood reading), the children featured were from wealthy families who had both a boarding school tradition and also could evidently afford the fees. This patently is not the case for all the Hogwarts pupils. I actually assumed on first reading the books that JK Rowling had not really thought that anyone would ask about the origin of school fees, as the majority of her readership would be juveniles! In the increasingly popular private sector of the British education system, school fees are generally met by the parents (sadly). There are however a number of other options. There are always scholarship endowments from various sources including wealthy alumni, of whom I should imagine that there are many ex-Hogwarts. Local authorities often endow private schools in order to educate gifted students, so perhaps the Ministry of Magic in this capacity endows Hogwarts with money. If Hogwarts is the only secondary school available for magical students then perhaps the Ministry of Magic in lieu of the local authority merely meets all the fees anyway. Hogwarts as a very old school would have endowments stretching back over the years and could possibly be an enormously wealthy establishment in its own right. One would assume that in JK Rowlings world there would not be the pressure on private schools to maintain their charitable status and therefore they would be able to earn money at will from their investments. I feel that given the longevity of Hogwarts, the expense for a few teachers salaries and school dinners would probably not be an issue, given of course that the staff of house elves are unpaid slaves! Cressida From Ali at zymurgy.org Fri Jul 2 20:05:20 2004 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 20:05:20 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: List etiquette Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104095 Greetings from the Hexquarters! It is great that everybody is so enthusiastic at the moment about HBP, JKR's website and general Harry happiness. But we are very concerned about the huge volume and quality issues that this brings to this list. Please note that it is list etiquette to read other people's messages. We know that there are problems with Yahoo delaying messages, or even getting messages through the moderating system or delayed via digest. We don't expect members to read all 100,000 previous messages before they post, but please do read a thread before posting a response to one particular message. If your answer has already been given, please don't decide to post anyway. Instead, you can send that person an "off-list" e mail showing your agreement. ( Remember, we don't allow "me-too" posts on this list). In this way, we can maintain the balance between serious list discussion and socialisation. Don't forget that on OT-Chatter, on-list socialising is the name of the game! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hpfgu-otchatter/} In general, if you post more than a handful of messages a day, you are probably posting too much. We all understand how fun it is to discuss favourite theories, but have mercy on the rest of the list. There are only so many posts that people can read in a day, and it is not fair if they are all yours! One final point, please do not ask how to navigate JKR's website on this list, and resist the temptation to reply if such a message appears. For what it's worth, the door once again has a "Do not disturb" sign on it. We do allow, even encourage such discussions, but only on our sister list OTChatter: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter Thanks for your understanding and continued commitment to HPfGU Regards, The List Elves From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 2 20:08:48 2004 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 21:08:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The HBP--Was Crazy, Crazy Theory About How Harry Will Vanquish Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040702200848.96599.qmail@web25110.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104096 Hans wrote: ...it fits in precisely with my own theory, which > is on file in the Group's Essays: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Essays/ > It's called "Harry Potter - Christian Rosycross in Jeans". I hope you'll > read it. In response "aboutthe1910s" wrote: Right, so I just read this, and on the seventh page it says that the Sixth Cosmic Plane (the parallel to the sixth book) is home to some called the Prodigal Son, and it just struck me that maybe Prodigal Son will equal Half Blood Prince in some way... (Someone who's read The Alchemical Wedding should provide more information about this Prodigal Son). Hans' answers to your comments: Thanks for the opportunity to expand on my article. This article is extremely concise and it assumes a lot of background knowledge, perception of Biblical and esoteric references, and the ability to do research. In other words a bit like HP but nowhere near as wonderful. If I didn't compact it, it would become extremely long, and boring. Most of the people who've read the article tell me at least it's fairly readable. The Sixth Cosmic Plane is not the parallel to the sixth book. The reference to "The Prodigal Son" is from The New Testament and not from the Alchemical Wedding. It's in Luke chapter 15. It tells of a son who took his father's inheritance before he died and wandered far away to an alien land to squander the money in loose living (hence "prodigal"). After he spent all his money he was so poor he envied the pigs their food. He returned to his father and asked to become a hired servant. The father had compassion and took back his son. This is in fact a short resume of the Fall and Redemption of humanity. Where this comes into Harry Potter is that the whole human race is the Prodigal Son. As I have said countless times in my posts, it is my assertion that all the major characters in Harry Potter are aspects within each of us. When we begin to realise that we are in an alien land, and a longing (James) begins to arise to return to the Father, and we purify ourselves (Lily), then Harry is born. Harry is that aspect in each one of us that is born when we begin the return journey. The Cosmic Planes are a modern reference to what the New Testament in this story calls "the father's house" and a "far away country". As most of you will probably know, the original creative Cause of the universe created things in lots of seven. When He, She or It created the Omni-verse It did so in seven planes of existence. To simplify matters, the present situation is that the First to the Sixth Cosmic Planes are referred to as the Father's House, because His will is carried out there. The Seventh Cosmic Plane is the universe we live in, with all its visible and invisible worlds. Because of the Fall, our universe does not reflect the Divine Plan. We, the Prodigal Sons of the original Creative Spirit, live in a far away land because the Seventh Cosmic Plane is far removed from the Father's House. Harry Potter teaches us in a veiled symbolical way how to return to the Father. In this process Dumbledore symbolises the faculty which makes the return journey possible. Each Cosmic Plane in turn is subdivided into seven sub-planes. On page 3-4 I have listed the planes. (The only plane that is visible to us is the physical plane with its solids, liquids and gases.) It is THESE seven (sub-)planes that have their parallels in each book. I explain in my article how Harry liberates himself from the forces which imprison him on each plane, just as Christian Rosycross does in the Tower of Olympus. You may wonder why I mix Biblical and Rosicrucian writings. That's because there's only one Father's House and only one way to get back home. All the major religious and esoteric traditions are road maps for the journey. In every era the Father sends his emissaries to call the Prodigal Sons and Daughters to leave the swine trough and come home. You may have heard of this chap Jesus of Nazareth "The Anointed", for example, or Prince Gautama, or Hermes the Thrice Greatest, and many more. Today the call is coming to us in the form of a series of seven books written by a woman who is inspired. I have no idea whether she is aware of the source of her inspiration. Judging by the extremely tight hold she's keeping on her story I think she must have a fairly good idea. However although legally she owns the story, its essence is not HER story but a message from the Causeless Cause calling us to come back. It seems that a person has been chosen who is a genius at telling stories. What is a better way to influence humanity than through its children, by the use of powerful archetypes that resonate in the collective subconscious? Now to answer your theory: In a sense the Prodigal Son became a sort of Half Blood Prince by leaving his father. When he returned he was not an heir to anything because he had already spent his inheritance. A half-blood prince is usually in the same position. The New Testament doesn't actually call the father in the story a king, but he was very rich and had many servants. So your theory that the Half Blood Prince is the Prodigal Son definitely has merit. Has anyone ever noticed that Harry, Ron and Hermione are ALWAYS mentioned in the same order? And how we all talk about HRH? What's another meaning to this abbreviation? His/Her Royal Highness of course! That's the title for a Prince! The Prodigal Son, as I have pointed out, is US. Each and everyone of us is the Prodigal Son. I have also pointed out that the main characters in Harry Potter are aspects within us. Harry is the aspect in us that begins the return journey. In my article I call him the new soul. Harry is born in the heart (Godric's Hollow). Hermione obviously represents the mind and Ron the ordinary earthly personality. So in fact, HRH together form the Prodigal Child. HRH = Prodigal Son = HBP? Where this all falls flat is that I can't see how Jo Rowling can make the Half Blood Prince equal the whole trio. It just doesn't seem possible. Having built this wonderful house of cards it all falls flat here. Sorry for this long rambling rave, but at least it's given us something to think and marvel about. Hans in Holland Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com From ExSlytherin at aol.com Fri Jul 2 20:11:47 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 20:11:47 -0000 Subject: Animagi revisited was: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104097 > > Kneasy: > > No. There is no evidence that he was particularly bright. By all > accounts the Animagus spell doesn't require brains, just practice to get it right. > > Alla: > Animagus spell does not require brains? I beg to differ. There are > only seven of the registered after all in the last century. It must > have been not very easy to manage it. Besides McGonagall calls Sirius and James the brightest students in PoA. Mandy here: So why are there not more of them? We know of many brilliant wizards in the canon, yet only seven animagi currently alive? It seems odd. Perhaps it has less to do with talent, and more to do with how animagi are perceived by the WW. Perhaps they are looked down upon and prejudiced against in some way. Considered untrust worthy. I don't have canon to support this but the lack of Animagi keeps bothering me, and I wanted to put these questions out there. Why did the marauders hide their animagus status after school? If not from the WW, why hide it from DD? Surly it would have benefited them in the Order? It seems as though it would be a useful skill during a war, fighting and spying. Why should Rita Skeeter hide her animagi status? Yes, it's a great disguise to use to have as a reporter, but even if she was registered and it was known that she was one, who's going to bother to remember? `Oh, that's Rita Skeeter, look out she can turn herself in to a beetle.' Would anyone, other then the extremely paranoid spend the rest their lives looking for beetles everywhere? Could Hogwarts have kept her out if it was known she was an animagi? Could the school have set up anti-beetle wards everywhere to protect its students? I don't think so. I don't see how her being a known animagi would harm her, other than cramping her style. The only reason it would behoove Rita not to have her animagi status know, is if it was something that she has to display about her at all times. Like a big red letter emblazoned on her chest. A for Animgus. It seems more likely she couldn't get a job as a reporter if she was know to be one. And why is it not taught at Hogwarts? If only at NEWT level? Perhaps the WW are extremely suspicious of animagi wizards, to the point of discriminating against them. It's the only reason I can think of why everyone wouldn't at least want to attempt to become one. There seems to be something very suspicious about the whole Animagus ability. Mandy From bamf505 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 17:42:26 2004 From: bamf505 at yahoo.com (Metylda) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 10:42:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Royalty? Message-ID: <20040702174226.630.qmail@web12302.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104098 [ELF NOTE: When responding to this post, please make sure that your post is on-topic, i.e., discusses the books. If you would like to discuss the topic of royality in general, please do so on OT-Chatter: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/ --Manya Elf] I was wondering if any of the more British people could enlighten me on if a 'Baron' would be of a royal bloodline or not? We have The Bloody Baron, the bloody being from his mysterious death, but is the title of Baron ONLY a royalty thing? Also, we have Sir Nearly Headless Nick. My understand was, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that being called Sir was an indication of knighthood. I'm not up on British History, but was being a knight something that was bewtowed or was it hereditary? I'm also very curious as to if there were ever any 'Magical' Royalty, or do we think that the WW swore oaths to a Muggle King and Queen? thank you! bamf!, the curious ===== "Why, you speak treason!" -Maid Marian "Fluently!" -Robin Hood -The Adventures of Robin Hood (1938) Cub fans are not normal. From Ali at zymurgy.org Fri Jul 2 20:25:52 2004 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 20:25:52 -0000 Subject: The Dursleys at Risk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104099 Steve wrote: >>> For what it's worth, I too think the protections work both ways. The Protection of Blood protect everyone of that blood. The big flaw in the 'Blood Protection' plan is that in order to be protected, you have to stay at home. Dudley could be in danger at school, Petunia that the grocery story, and Vernon at work. I've always thought there would be a direct attack on the Dursleys, but now I wonder if the Dementor attack was it, or if a bigger scarier attack is still coming?>>> Ali: I think this highlights my big problem with Petunia sealing the pact to foster Harry *only* in return for similar protection as that which Harry himself will receive. As far as I can ascertain, the Dursleys must be incredibly exposed every time they leave the house. After all, Harry is. Presumably, the Dursleys are only at risk because of Harry. If Harry wasn't there, or more to the point, did not exist, would the Dursleys be at risk? If the only risk is because of Harry, Petunia is entering into a pact knowing that she could be endangering her family, yet receiving only very limited protection in return. Would she do this for a nephew she doesn't want, whom she has never learnt to love? I think the draw of protection, however limited, might be sufficient for Petunia to agree to take Harry if Petunia already perceived a threat. If that is the case, why did Petunia feel her family was under threat? I understand that her sister had been murdered. It's more than possible that she lost her parents through murder. But was Petunia similarly at risk? Lily appears only to have lost her life because she tried to protect Harry. So why would Petunia feel at risk? Perhaps it was simply paranoia, which I believe would have been understandable, but is that really the reason? Or is it possible that she didn't feel at risk but she feared for Dudley? perhaps there is something in the male blood line of the Evans family which Voldemort was keen to stamp out? Perhaps there is another prophesy relating to the Evans family, or perhaps Petunia was aware of peculiarities about Dudley aka magical abilities which she felt would endanger his life? Of course, having a magical son would force Petunia to face her own feelings of jealousy and demons from her past. I think those would be sufficient reasons to make Petunia take Harry in, but not otherwise. Ali From cyclone_61032 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 20:18:44 2004 From: cyclone_61032 at yahoo.com (David & Laura) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 20:18:44 -0000 Subject: CoS clues to Books 6 & 7 analysis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104100 > David wrote: > > I'm leaning to GG being the half blood prince, or prince of half > > bloods, and Harry is a blood relative. "erader45": > That sounds okay, but if GG is the prince of half-bloods, then why > are all of the Weasleys (purebloods) and Hermione (muggleborn) in > Gryffindor? David: Well my thinking is that the essence of goodness or fairness of GG was that your heritage didn't matter. Your heart and courage mattered. Thus, regardless of blood, the sorting hat could sort you into Gryffindor. >From what little we know, this point (blood purity doesn't matter) is what caused old Sly to leave and create the COS. As my mind wanders, we've heard much of Sly, but relatively little about GG. Was he a prince? We know from canon that he was one of the greatest 4 wizards and witches of his time. Thus, is Harry a blood relative with these GG traits; compassion, bravery, fairness.... We know, at least DD believes, certain LV (or Sly) powers were transferred to Harry with the failed curse. But we know Harry seems to possess powers of his own (GG's?). Is it this combination of powers that directly or indirectly gives Harry the ability to take LV down? Oh well...time will tell. David From thursdaymorning at outgun.com Fri Jul 2 20:30:01 2004 From: thursdaymorning at outgun.com (thursday morning) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 04:30:01 +0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Getting to Hogwarts Message-ID: <20040702203001.E99A0398198@ws5-1.us4.outblaze.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104101 > "thursday morning" wrote: > [snipped heavily: you have been warned] > > Is it possible that Diagon Alley itself is 1.5 miles long? > > ... Easily bordered > > with The Leaky Cauldron at one end and Kings Cross Station at the > > other Phil: > So why would the Weasleys et al have to travel by Ministry car in > HP&POA? Sorry but I think canon disproves your admittedly lovely > theory. thursday: I agree there is no canon to support the theory, but then I'm just having fun developing theories so I'm not going to get my feeling hurt when they're smacked down. That said I don't think the use of the ministry cars disproves the theory. 1.5 miles is a long way to hump trunks, animals, lunches, etc. even with magic to make the trunks lighter. It might have just been easier to take the long way around by car than going on foot or by floo. Besides Arthur *likes* muggle things like cars. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if he took every reasonable opportunity that came along to interact with them. Either way I've had fun thinking about it. Thanks for giving me more to think about. Puzzles are always more fun when you have to work at them a bit. thursday: > > I'm behind in my reading-do we ever see > > where the Weasley's come out when they floo there. We know you can > > floo directly to a particular store but they didn't say a store name > > in CoS, just "Diagon Alley." Doesn't it make sense then that > > there's a general arrival area? Phil: > My impression was that people generally ended up in the "Leaky > Cauldron" but I could be vastly wrong. AFAICR we never actually found > out where anyone except for Harry arrived. thursday: That was my first thought too but: 1. they didn't say "the Leaky Cauldron" just "Diagon Alley" Of course, the Leaky Cauldron could be set as the default entrance for Diagon Alley. 2. That's a lot of people to be passing through what doesn't seem to be a very big pub ("It was a tiny, grubby-looking pub." SS/PS pg68 USPB.) Also the courtyard out back which they have to pass through is described as small. True, the pub could be quite a bit bigger inside than out but I still don't think this works. Diagon Alley just seemed too busy for everyone, or nearly so, to go through one little pub. Especially in the autumn when so many are shopping for school books/supplies. Eagerly waiting for more to think about, thursday -- _______________________________________________ Outgun.com free e-mail @ www.outgun.com Check out our Premium services - POP3 downloading, e-mail forwarding, and 25MB mailboxes! Powered by Outblaze From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 20:46:31 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 20:46:31 -0000 Subject: Harry's Protection at the Dursley's was (Re: The Dursleys at Risk) In-Reply-To: <061001c4606c$50e2ecc0$58e6f943@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104102 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kimberly" wrote: > --- Quote - GoF - Am Ed HB - pg 657 --- > Voldemort speaks- > > "But how to get at Harry Potter? For he as been better protected > than I think even he knows, protected in say DEVISED BY Dumbledore > long ago, when it fell to him to arrange the boy's future. > DUMBLEDORE INVOKED an ancient magic, to ensure the boy's protection > as long as he is in his relations care. Not even I can touch him > there." > - - - End Quote - - - > > > The big flaw in the 'Blood Protection' plan is that in order to be > protected, you have to stay at home. Dudley could be in danger at > school, Petunia that the grocery story, and Vernon at work. > > For what it's worth. > > Steve/Asian_lovr2 > > *Kimberly's comment* > Can someone clear something up for me ? I didn't read the prophecy as "Harry is safe AT the Dursley's or that he can't be harmed there". I took it as, "As long as he could call it home (doesn't say as long as he is AT home), the protection was in place." > > But now, according to Steve's quote above, I am unclear. Is Voldemort mistaken and misinterpreting the ancient magic ? Does he think he can't hurt Harry AT the Dursley's or is he aware that Harry has to be able to call the Dursley's home in order to have protection. The way I read it, there's a HUGE difference. ... > > Any comments ? Insights ? > > Kimberly asian_lovr2: Notice Voldemort says "Not even I can touch him THERE." meaning at the Dursleys. On the original point- --- Quote - OotP - AM Ed HB - pg 836 --- Dumbledore speaks- "I put my trust, therefore, in your mother's blood. I delivered you to her sister, he only remaining relative." "...and in doing so, she sealed the charm I PLACED UPON YOU." "While you can still call home the PLACE where your mother's blood DWELLS, THERE you cannot be touched or harmed by Voldemort. He shed her blood, but it lives on in you and her sister. He blood became your refuge. You need return THERE only one a year, but as long as you can still call it home, THERE he cannot jurt you. ..." - - - End Quote - - - While the statement does still contain degree of ambiguity, the continual emphasis on PLACE and THERE, as well as Harry being told to stay in the house when ever trouble occurs, those things combined together pretty strongly imply that it is the PLACE where his blood dwells and calls HOME that protects him. For what it's worth. Steve/asian_lovr2 From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 21:02:23 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 21:02:23 -0000 Subject: Getting to Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <20040702203001.E99A0398198@ws5-1.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104103 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "thursday morning" wrote: > > thursday: > That was my first thought too but: > 1. they didn't say "the Leaky Cauldron" just "Diagon Alley" > Of course, the Leaky Cauldron could be set as the default > entrance for Diagon Alley. > 2. That's a lot of people to be passing through what doesn't > seem to be a very big pub ("It was a tiny, grubby-looking pub." > SS/PS pg68 USPB.) Also the courtyard out back which they have > to pass through is described as small. True, the pub could be > quite a bit bigger inside than out but I still don't think this > works. Diagon Alley just seemed too busy for everyone, or nearly > so, to go through one little pub. Especially in the autumn when > so many are shopping for school books/supplies. > > Eagerly waiting for more to think about, > > thursday asian_lovr: Keep in mind that only underage wizards and wizards who are too weak or feeble would have to use Floo. The average adult wizard can apparate directly to Diagon Alley. Still, Floo travel with heavy trunks and packages has to be very difficult. My impression was that you had to keep you elbows tucked in while you Floo traveled, per Ron's intructions to Harry, so you didn't elbow other Floo travelers as you passed by. I think we can speculate many possible solutions, but I also suspect that even the best of them will still be flawed. Just a thought. Steve/asian_lovr2 From lostris37 at hotmail.com Fri Jul 2 20:57:14 2004 From: lostris37 at hotmail.com (lostris37) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 20:57:14 -0000 Subject: CoS clues to Books 6 & 7 analysis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104104 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Diana" wrote: > I've been thinking about the hints JKR keeps throwing out about how > CoS gives big clues to how the books are going to end. So, I've > broken down the end of CoS and can easily see circumstances > repeating themselves at the end of book 7. > Seventh, Harry's discovered a lot about Tom Riddle's past and this > might be very important to how he defeats Voldemort. Harry knows a > lot about Riddle, from his being a half-blood [which Harry revealed > to the DEs in the MoM at the end of OotP] to Riddle's overwhelming > desire to stay at Hogwarts instead of going back to an orphange. I > wonder if Harry's going to discover some heretofore unknown weakness > of Voldemort's because of what he knows about his past? As you mention in your post (fact 7) that Tom Riddle is a half blood, who becomes Lord Voldemort, and given the news that Half Blood Prince was considered as a title for what became CoS - it's not too much of a leap to think that Tom Riddle is the Half blood prince. Of course JKR's denying that Harry or LV fit the description tends to slap my theory on the head, however I wonder......... "lostris" From lostris37 at hotmail.com Fri Jul 2 21:07:14 2004 From: lostris37 at hotmail.com (lostris37) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 21:07:14 -0000 Subject: The Opening Chapter of Book 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104105 > > vmonte wrote: > > > Rowling has stated that someone will gain magical powers late in life > > > and that it is very rare in the wizard world. What if the someone in the opening chapter of book 6 who gains magical powers late in life is Filch?? Just thought I'd stick that in. "lostris" From squeakinby at tds.net Fri Jul 2 21:21:32 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 17:21:32 -0400 Subject: a boy in search of a father Message-ID: <40E5D1DC.8060003@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 104106 I was wondering today how I would feel if Harry doesn't resolve this search for a father by the end of the series. It would be almost as bad as if he dies because wouldn't a part of him either die or remain unborn? Doesn't he remain scarred for life if this isn't addressed? It would seem very efficient if the HBP could fill the role as a father figure but I would suspect great conflict on Harry's part in accepting that relationship. Jem From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Fri Jul 2 22:00:20 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 22:00:20 -0000 Subject: Animagi revisited was: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104107 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mandy" wrote: > > > Kneasy: > > > No. There is no evidence that he was particularly bright. By all > > accounts the Animagus spell doesn't require brains, just practice > to get it right. > > > > Alla: > > Animagus spell does not require brains? I beg to differ. There are > > only seven of the registered after all in the last century. It must > > have been not very easy to manage it. Besides McGonagall calls > Sirius and James the brightest students in PoA. > > > Mandy here: > So why are there not more of them? We know of many brilliant wizards > in the canon, yet only seven animagi currently alive? It seems odd. > > Perhaps it has less to do with talent, and more to do with how > animagi are perceived by the WW. Carolyn: Further to your argument, Mandy, see my recent post 103152, raising renewed doubts about Minerva McGonagall, and her status within the Order. It may be that transformation generally, and perhaps especially animagi-skills, are regarded with some nervousness by the wizard-in-the-street. Tom Riddle said he went through many transformations to become Lord V, so perhaps the skill can easily become Dark Magic. Remember also the odd way that Bella referred to Sirius, her cousin, as 'the animagus Black' at the MoM. Perhaps it was important for her to warn/remind her master of Sirius's status, for some reason. From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Fri Jul 2 22:02:18 2004 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa hagrid) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 00:02:18 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] news in OoP References: Message-ID: <006501c46080$3ea83d30$9a376750@portatil> No: HPFGUIDX 104108 Karen wrote: The news in the first chapter of OoP seems to me like it's hidding a clue. The following were included in the news: "Record numbers of stranded holidaymakers fill airports as the Spanish baggage-handlers' strike reaches it's second week-" helicopter almost crashed in a field in Surrey famous actress'divorce from her famous husband "Bungy the budgie has found a novel way of keeping cool this summer. Bungy, who lives at the Five Feathers in Barnsley, has learned to water-ski! Mary Dorkins went to find out more..." The first one really strikes my interest, but I just don't see anything important in it though I have this weird feeling about it. What does everyone else think? K. Evans Me (Fridwulfa): Well, I don't know, could be, but I'll tell you what. I'm from Spain and airport workers strikes are a constant here, particularly in the summer, tourist season, and particularly in places like Majorca, Canary Islands... etc. So I don't think it has any kind of hidden message. Bungy the budgie, on the other hand... quite suspicious. And it's mentioned several times, on the news... Cheers, Fridwulfa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Fri Jul 2 22:14:39 2004 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa hagrid) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 00:14:39 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Anagram game was Re: Alice Longbottom References: Message-ID: <008201c46081$f7f45890$9a376750@portatil> No: HPFGUIDX 104109 Ron's initials are R B W. Ron Bilius Weasley. Cheers, Fridwulfa Luke wrote: "Ron B W is muggle Blood" Well, the W obviously stands for Weasley, and mabye the B is his middle name. ;) But I doubt this has any significance, because why would alice know Ron is a muggle blood, and why would she try to tell Neville when Ron was feet from here. I also got "I RSW born muggle blood" maybe RSW are Ron's initials. But I don't see how this can make any sense, most liekly a coincidence. - Luke ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From drednort at alphalink.com.au Fri Jul 2 22:55:05 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 08:55:05 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Royalty? In-Reply-To: <20040702174226.630.qmail@web12302.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <40E67469.3987.273C23@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 104110 On 2 Jul 2004 at 10:42, Metylda wrote: > I was wondering if any of the more British people > could enlighten me on if a 'Baron' would be of a royal > bloodline or not? We have The Bloody Baron, the > bloody being from his mysterious death, but is the > title of Baron ONLY a royalty thing? No, in fact, it's commonly not Royalty but rather Nobility. How titles are used differs from country to country across Europe, but assuming the Bloody Baron is British, this is how the British system works. Roughly speaking. At the top you have the Royal Family - the Queen (or the King) and their close relatives. These are Royalty. A step below these you have the Nobility, the Peers, the Lords (different terms used almost interchangably). While these families, especially the most senior ones, and oldest ones, often have connections to the Royal family, they are not royalty. Historically, noble titles were hereditary - today, new peerages are typically Life Peerages (introduced in 1958) - they are not passed on to descendents, although the old hereditary peerages remain hereditary (and new ones could be created). The thing is, there are 'ranks' of nobility. At the top are the Dukes, then the Marquesses, then the Earls, then the Viscounts, and finally the Barons. So Baron is well down the scale. It's complicated a bit though by *when* the Bloody Baron became a Baron - if you go back to, say, the year 1215 (Magna Carta and all that) Britain didn't have Dukes, Marquesses, or Viscounts. Back then it was much more possible for a Baron to be closely related to the King - although still not a member of the Royal Family. [Special note: just to be complete, there are Barons in the Royal Family - it's just that they are never likely to be referred to primarily as such, because they have superior titles - HRH Charles, Prince of Wales is Baron of Renfrew - but because he's also Earl of Carrick, Earl of Chester, Duke of Cornwall, and Duke of Rothesay, as well as Prince of Wales, it's not that likely it's going to come up very often). If the Bloody Baron's primary title was Baron, as seems likely, then unless he's very old, the odds are that any royal blood he has is very diluted. > Also, we have Sir Nearly Headless Nick. My understand > was, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that being > called Sir was an indication of knighthood. I'm not > up on British History, but was being a knight > something that was bewtowed or was it hereditary? Generally a Knighthood is bestowed on an individual - but there is an excpetion, the Baronetcy - a Baronet is addressed as Sir, but does pass the title onto their eldest son. It's not a noble title, it's a step below that. Nearly Headless Nick is too old to be a Baronet, though - the title wasn't introduced until 1611 and he died in 1492. > I'm also very curious as to if there were ever any > 'Magical' Royalty, or do we think that the WW swore > oaths to a Muggle King and Queen? We really don't know. Personally I've always taken the view that Wizarding Britain probably does acknowledge the Queen, but there's no real evidence for or against that that I can see. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From alina at distantplace.net Fri Jul 2 23:09:39 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 19:09:39 -0400 Subject: Ron's Middle Name Message-ID: <00fc01c46089$a7332730$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 104111 I keep on seeing posts on the Bubble Gum Wrappers Anagram thread asking if Ron's middle name begins with a B, even though several people replied that yes, it's Bilius. So here it is once and for all. Here's a copy/paste of the transcript of the chat where JKR revealed it: J.K. Rowling's World Book Day Chat: March 4, 2004 kylie: Thanks for writing such wonderful books, Ms Rowling :). Just one question: What are Ron, Hermione and Ginny's middle names? Thank you :) JK Rowling replies -> My pleasure:) Middle names: Ginny is Molly, of course, Hermione 'Jane' and Ron, poor boy, is Bilius. From featheringstonehaugh at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 23:58:52 2004 From: featheringstonehaugh at yahoo.com (A Featheringstonehaugh) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 16:58:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: <1088797139.101372.28434.m22@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040702235852.98912.qmail@web52410.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104112 Demetra: My thoughts exactly. My daughter - a great Sirius fan - can't believe that I find him boorish and suspect. I've tried to excuse his excesses: years in prison, bad childhood, friends murdered...but no, I can't do it. I predict we'll learn some terrible things about him in books 6 and 7. AF --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From katiebug1233 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 21:19:37 2004 From: katiebug1233 at yahoo.com (Kate) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 21:19:37 -0000 Subject: Ministry Control was: Re: Animagi revisited was: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104113 Mandy wrote: > So why are there not more of them? We know of many brilliant > wizards in the canon, yet only seven animagi currently alive? > It seems odd. Perhaps it has less to do with talent, and more > to do with how animagi are perceived by the WW. > > Why did the marauders hide their animagus status after school? > If not from the WW, why hide it from DD? Surely it would have > benefited them in the Order? > > Why should Rita Skeeter hide her animagi status? Yes, it's a > great disguise to use to have as a reporter, but even if she > was registered and it was known that she was one, who's going > to bother to remember? It always seemed to me that the Marauders and Rita Skeeter kept their animagi talents a secret for the sheer fact that they had acquired the ability illegally. I think the most logical reason for the lack of animagi in the last century is that this magical power is highly regulated by the ministry. I can only imagine the punishment one would recieve for being an unregistered animagus. The ministry, as we have seen, is extremely controlling and paranoid of powerful wizards. And in this case I think it is rightly so. Can you imagine the havoc that could ensue in the WW if half the population could transform into a animal? The stealth that one can achieve as an animagus is extreme. Like Hermione's time-turner, I'm sure there are a lot of channels one must go through to get the okay for this type of transformation but to a much greater extreme. But this is just one girl's opinion. -Katie, who has read these boards forever but just now posted and hopes she got it right Hello :) From inkling108 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 21:19:53 2004 From: inkling108 at yahoo.com (inkling108) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 21:19:53 -0000 Subject: The word "prince" in OotP In-Reply-To: <20040702033820.37852.qmail@web40609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104114 Suzanne wrote: > But in that context, who else could be pampered little > prince be but Dudley? Inkling here -- The reason I thought it might have some reference to James and his family is I thought Dumbledore might be implicitly contrasting Harry's demeanor with his father's (we have seen how arrogant James could be). As in, you were not a pampered prince like your father/ like you would have been if your father's kin had raised you/ like you might have been if you had been raised by a family aware of your lineage. Just my immediate guess as to what sort of contrast Dumbledore had in mind when he spoke these words. You're right, he might have had Dudley in mind instead. But somehow I don't think Dumbledore concerns himself much with the Dursleys beyond making sure they give Harry what he needs to survive and be "as normal a boy as I could have hoped." I think James is a much more vivid presence in Dumbledore's mind. From kailincj at msn.com Fri Jul 2 21:24:52 2004 From: kailincj at msn.com (Gwen) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 21:24:52 -0000 Subject: CoS clues to Books 6 & 7 analysis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104115 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Diana" wrote: > Fourth, Harry kills Tom Riddle by 'killing' the diary. Maybe the > way to kill Voldemort is by not attacking him directly, but by > attacking his source of power which is separate from him? I can't > remember anything Voldemort might own that would be considered a > source of power to him, but it's an idea, anyway. This idea just struck me, and I haven't had much chance to think it through, but here goes. I've been reading a lot about the possibility of part of Voldemort's soul (the human part, what's left of it) residing in Harry. Just as Harry had to attack the diary, what if Harry has to kill himself in order for Voldemort to truly die? He may see that as the only way out, as his powers, while strong, may not be the equal of the restored Voldemort. Having said that, however, I think Harry will be restored to life moments later---not his time, a lot to live for, etc, etc. "Gwen" From rebekarg at yahoo.com.br Fri Jul 2 21:45:18 2004 From: rebekarg at yahoo.com.br (=?iso-8859-1?q?Rebeka=20Gomes?=) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 18:45:18 -0300 (ART) Subject: Sirius Black poll In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040702214518.40811.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104116 --- madeyemoody72 escreveu: > If I were JKR I would have him alive and trapped > behind the veil, (since he was not actually killed) > and in full communication with Harry after Harry > sends the mirror through the veil as an act of > final respect to Sirius. Later a possible rescue > would develope, but it would come to nothing and > Harry and Sirius would have to come to grips with > being apart. Rebeka: Oh my, how cruel! :) I truly hope Sirius would come back, but I'd rather have him dead if he's not coming back at full. I mean, I don't want him to come back as a shadow, or a ghost or through a mirror. Either I get Black back alive and in flesh and bones or I'd rather have him ultimately dead. ===== ~Rebeka _______________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail agora com 100MB, anti-spam e antivrus grtis! http://br.info.mail.yahoo.com/ From soleta_nf at yahoo.ca Fri Jul 2 21:49:49 2004 From: soleta_nf at yahoo.ca (=?iso-8859-1?q?House=20Yolande?=) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 17:49:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: How_Rare_are_Muggle-borns?_and_Analysis_of_Purity_in_the_Order In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040702214949.22221.qmail@web40412.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104117 Hey again! I've found more stuff relating to our HP talk last night. :) I couldn't think of the phrase last night, but Hermione is "muggle-born." So not muggle, but muggle-born. And James Potter is full blood. More info below (I've deleted the book 5-related info): Please forgive this *very* the long post!!! All of this discussion about the halfblood prince has got me thinking about the rarity of Muggle-born wizards. I apologize if this has been discussed before, but it seems to me that we have seen very few purely Muggle-born wizards throughout the books. I believe the only ones we can be sure of are Hermione and Moaning Myrtle; is it likely that all of the students attacked in CoS were Muggle-born? Here are the attacks: Mrs. Norris ? cat of a Squib; probably an accidental attack. Colin Creevey ? father is a milkman; don't have enough information on his mother. Possibly he and Dennis are pure Muggle-borns. Justin Finch-Fletchley ? probably Muggle-born. Hermione ? Muggle-born. Penelope Clearwater ? not enough information. Moaning Myrtle ? Muggle-born student who died when CoS originally opened. So I'm thinking that just as Tom Riddle sought to complete what he considered "Salazar Slytherin's noble work" (Scholastic Cos 312), Harry is the living representation of Dumbledore's philosophy that purity of blood is meaningless. And Dumbledore has created a Hogwarts where Harry has more opportunity to meet and befriend Muggle- borns and halfbloods. [snip...] James Potter ? Pureblood. Harry is called a halfblood by Dumbledore on p. 842 of Scholastic OoP [Book 5], so James must have been a pureblood--assuming Lily was Muggle-born. Lily Potter ? Muggle-born, as far as we know. House Yolande From lmenard at shentel.net Fri Jul 2 22:31:37 2004 From: lmenard at shentel.net (Laura Menard) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 18:31:37 -0400 Subject: One More HBP Long Shot.... References: <20040702200848.96599.qmail@web25110.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000d01c46084$584e90f0$0400a8c0@TheMaster> No: HPFGUIDX 104118 I was looking back through old interview transcripts (I included the link below) and found that Fleur Delacour's name means 'flower of the court', as in noblewoman according JKR. I always felt that we would see her again after the tournament from her parting statement to Harry... "We will see each uzzer again, I 'ope," said Fleur as she reached him, holding out her hand. "I am 'oping to get a job 'ere, to improve my Eenglish." (page 724, GOF US) Could it be that Ms. Delacour will make her stated return bring the HBP with her??!?? Laura ? AOL, October 19, 2000 http://www.mugglenet.com/aolchat1.shtml Is there a reason Fleur's name means "flower of the heart"? Ah, Narri, you're nearly there... in fact, it means "flower of the court," like a noblewoman. Heart is "coeur." (I used to be a French teacher, sorry.) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aandj at labyrinth.net.au Fri Jul 2 22:32:56 2004 From: aandj at labyrinth.net.au (Jocelyn Grunow) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 09:32:56 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Dursleys at Risk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104119 on 2/7/2004 4:22 PM, Jocelyn Grunow at aandj at labyrinth.net.au wrote to justcarol67: > I don't think that Dumbledore PLACED the charm - I think it is a side-effect > of the original magic that protected Harry. I re-read this and I am wrong. Dumbledore definitely says that he placed the charm. My apologies, Carol Jocelyn From tubadave at normalview.com Fri Jul 2 22:50:45 2004 From: tubadave at normalview.com (Big D) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 22:50:45 -0000 Subject: CoS clues to Books 6 & 7 analysis / Salazar and Godric In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104120 I've long been a proponent of the theory that Harry could be related in some way to GG, and the idea that GG might actually be the HBP goes along with that, in my mind. It makes sense to me that JKR might have originally intended to reveal a link between Harry and GG in CoS, to go along with the link she revealed between Riddle/LV and Slytherin, and then decided to leave the first part for later in the series (but still hinted at it by having Harry pull GG's sword out of the hat and later see his name on it.) As JKR told us herself: "Certain crucial pieces of information in book six were originally planned for 'Chamber of Secrets'." A delay in revealing a connection between Harry and Gryffindor changes the story enough to warrant delaying the use of that title. The rift that led to Slytherin building the CoS and leaving the school (about what students should and should not be accepted, of course) is often said to have been between SS and the other three founders, but in one place (CoS, American paperback, p. 150) Professor Binns says that "...there was a serious argument on the subject between Slytherin and Gryffindor, and Slytherin left the school." We've already had Riddle/Voldemort established as the direct link to Slytherin, and I believe that Harry will be similarly linked to Gryffindor, and the age-old dispute between the two will find its final resolution in their modern-day counterparts. Perhaps GG will return and empower Harry in some way, and therefore becomes the "power that the Dark Lord knows not." Or maybe not, that's kinda crazy, actually. Heh. Also, as others have discussed in this thread, I think that the final confrontation will mirror the one in CoS to a certain degree, perhaps directly involving Ginny in some way. It may be Harry's feelings for her (yes, I'm a big H/G shipper, and R/Hr as well) that give him the power to bring about Voldemort's ultimate defeat. I'm not really sure how that would work, if he would have to rescue her, or maybe she rescues him, or something, but I'm betting she's a major player in the big finale. Big D From mrsbonsai at charter.net Sat Jul 3 00:33:09 2004 From: mrsbonsai at charter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 00:33:09 -0000 Subject: Wands was:Re: CoS clues to Books 6 & 7 analysis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104121 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Diana" wrote: > Fourth, Harry kills Tom Riddle by 'killing' the diary. Maybe the > way to kill Voldemort is by not attacking him directly, but by > attacking his source of power which is separate from him? I can't > remember anything Voldemort might own that would be considered a > source of power to him, but it's an idea, anyway. > > Sixth, Fawkes saves Harry's life with his tears just moments before > Harry dies from the basilisk venom. Maybe Fawkes [or some other > magical object/person/spell] will do this again and save Harry after > he suffers a mortal wound that would otherwise kill him without this > aid? Whether this miraculous cure would happen before or after > Harry defeats Voldemort is anyone's guess. Well, I am wondering now about the "Phoenix Song" and how they both have the same feather from Fawkes in their wands. And the wands can't attack each other, without one being incredibly stronger. What kind of connections can you draw from this? I'd like to hear more opinions. I remember reading something about wands really being a point where the power is just concentrated. So what exactly do the feathers do. I mean if a feather from the same Phoenix doesn't want to attack itself . . . Along those lines (wand lines), I posted this the other day, and still haven't seen a response . . . Is it at all possible that Voldemort used Lily's "excellent for charm work" wand to try to kill Harry? And that's why the rebounded spell did not come out in GoF? I guess I should say I know that the reference of the charm wand was actually reference to Lily's first wand, however, it would seem to stand to reason that a subsequent wand would also be "charmed"? In this, could it also be that the wand belonging to Lily would indeed backfire as it would "know" her son? Perhaps there was a struggle of some kind and then Voldemort had to grab a nearby wand. It seems we've seen evidence of other struggles where wizards and witches use other's wands. And then there's the reference where another wizards wand can never be used as effectively as your own? Julie From mrsbonsai at charter.net Sat Jul 3 00:43:05 2004 From: mrsbonsai at charter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 00:43:05 -0000 Subject: Watches Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104122 Has anyone noticed when Peaves comes through JKR's website, that the watch first changes to a watch with 12 wands and 12 round objects that remind me of DD's watch? Julie From chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com Sat Jul 3 00:49:37 2004 From: chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com (alora) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 00:49:37 -0000 Subject: Wands in the final battle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104124 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jastrangfeld" <> > Well, I am wondering now about the "Phoenix Song" and how they both > have the same feather from Fawkes in their wands. And the wands can't > attack each other, without one being incredibly stronger. What kind > of connections can you draw from this? I'd like to hear more > opinions. I remember reading something about wands really being a > point where the power is just concentrated. So what exactly do the > feathers do. I mean if a feather from the same Phoenix doesn't want > to attack itself . . . I've wondered about that myself. In the graveyard scene between Harry and V, Harry was the one that was able to make the beads "slide" back down toward V. Power that the Dark Lord knows not of, maybe? If the wands won't work properly against one another, maybe it will be Harry's heart and emotion, so to speak, that makes the difference in battle, causing him to win. Then again, maybe the final battle won't have anything to do with wands. As I have said before, I'm awful at theorizing, so here's where I stop. Alora :) From lostris37 at hotmail.com Fri Jul 2 21:17:45 2004 From: lostris37 at hotmail.com (lostris37) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 21:17:45 -0000 Subject: James Potter's "profession" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104125 "jodel_from_aol" wrote: > Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't nose-biting teacups one of the > items sold at Zonko's? Why would James try to *make* one if he > could have just gone out and bought one? Unless he *invented* them > in the first place. > > And either sold the procedure to Zonko (or his supplier), or > patented it and was paid a royalty on them. Harry's Gringotts > account may still be collecting a steady trickle of knuts from James > Potter's nose-biting teacup. Brilliant!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I always thought he was an auror (although that's never been confirmed as a profession that will bring a lot of money) however I think I was wrong (again - not unusual for me). "lostris37" From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Sat Jul 3 01:11:09 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 01:11:09 -0000 Subject: The word "prince" in OotP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104126 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "inkling108" wrote: > As in, you were not a pampered prince like your father/ like you > would have been if your father's kin had raised you/ like you > might have been if you had been raised by a family aware of your > lineage. Just my immediate guess as to what sort of contrast > Dumbledore had in mind when he spoke these words. > Frankly, I think Dumbledore has a point. Considering how obnoxious Harry was in OotP, throwing in the faces of his friends all his mighty deeds as The Great Harry Potter, I shudder to think what he'd have been like if he'd been flattered and cossetted all his life by a wizarding family. He seems to be very vulnerable to Swelled-Head Syndrome (must get it from his dad). His most likable characteristic - his sympathy with the unfortunate and the underdogs, is a direct result of the miserable upbringing he had with the Dursleys. It's because he's suffered himself that he can empathize with suffering, even with Snape's. If he hadn't been brought up in such a hard school, I could see him turning out like Draco. Wanda From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 3 01:20:15 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 01:20:15 -0000 Subject: Is Petunia Really Muggle? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104127 Lee wrote: > We don't really know anything about the Evans clan. Is it possible there were other wizards but things were kept quiet? Could it be possible that Petunia really is a squib? And could this, perhaps, lead to much of her resentment of her magical sister? > > Think about it...her words were about how proud her parents were to have a witch in the family. Perhaps someone from either her mother's side or her father's had been a wizard. The WW was somewhat known about by Petunia's parents which would lead them to being proud that Lilly was a witch. Meanwhile, here's Petunia, either muggle or (gasp) squib; she, so far, has revealed some knowledge of the WW and we all think she's got more secrets up her sleeve. > > If this has been beaten before, sorry, folks. Carol: It *has* been posed before and I hope I'll be forgiven for repeating myself, but here goes: First, Petunia can't be a Squib because a Squib is (by JKR's own definition) the nonmagical child of magical parents. (We've been told numerous times that Lily's and therefore Petunia's parents were Muggles whose nonmagical children would also be Muggles.) Second, we're told in every book that all of the Dursleys, including Petunia, are Muggles. McGonagall even states in SS/PS that the Dursleys seem to be different from witches and wizards in every possible respect and is scandalized that DD would place Harry with such a family. Third, JKR was asked in an early interview how Lily could be magical if her sister wasn't, and JKR explained about Muggleborns (including Lily) being born to Muggles and Squibs being born to witches and wizards. She made it clear at that point that Petunia was indeed a Muggle. You can find the link in the quotes section of the Lexicon by doing a search for Petunia. If you can't find it, let me know and I'll look it up. I don't disagree with you completely, however. It *is* true that Petunia knows something about the WW, particularly its Dark side (in contrast to Vernon, who knows virtually nothing about it), and I think that knowledge will come into play in Book 6 or 7. It's also extremely likely, as you say, that she and Lily had a fairly recent Squib ancestor (who IMO passed as a Muggle), and that Squib (by definition) would have had magical parents. I think that the Squib/Wizard ancestry will come into play in Book 6 with Mark Evans, whom I believe is a Muggleborn distant relative of Harry's about to be admitted to Hogwarts. My present unprovable theory is that the Squib was Lily's grandfather and Harry's and Mark's great-grandfather--it has to be a male relative in the Evans line for the shared name to be significant. Carol, who is still trying to catch up and hopes she hasn't repeated anyone's arguments (except her own) From gsanderson at cfl.rr.com Sat Jul 3 01:33:41 2004 From: gsanderson at cfl.rr.com (gsanderson at cfl.rr.com) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 01:33:41 -0000 Subject: CoS clues to Books 6 & 7 analysis / Salazar and Godric In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104128 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Big D" wrote: > > I've long been a proponent of the theory that Harry could be related > in some way to GG, and the idea that GG might actually be the HBP > goes along with that, in my mind. It makes sense to me that JKR > might have originally intended to reveal a link between Harry and GG > in CoS, to go along with the link she revealed between Riddle/LV and > Slytherin, and then decided to leave the first part for later in the > series (but still hinted at it by having Harry pull GG's sword out > of the hat and later see his name on it.) As JKR told us > herself: "Certain crucial pieces of information in book six were > originally planned for 'Chamber of Secrets'." A delay in revealing a > connection between Harry and Gryffindor changes the story enough to > warrant delaying the use of that title. > > The rift that led to Slytherin building the CoS and leaving the > school (about what students should and should not be accepted, of > course) is often said to have been between SS and the other three > founders, but in one place (CoS, American paperback, p. 150) > Professor Binns says that "...there was a serious argument on the > subject between Slytherin and Gryffindor, and Slytherin left the > school." We've already had Riddle/Voldemort established as the > direct link to Slytherin, and I believe that Harry will be similarly > linked to Gryffindor, and the age-old dispute between the two will > find its final resolution in their modern-day counterparts. I like this theory. It brings some sense to why the timeline of the Marauders is important to the overall story. We hear so much about Harry's parents and their friends and we know that they fought LV bravely, but I don't think that JKR would stress that timeline if something extremely important to the overall septology wasn't embedded there. Your theory would explain the importance of James to the story - since in that timeline before Harry, he would have been the (possibly the only) decendent of GG. We also know that something HUGE will be revealed about Lily. Could it be that perhaps James almost had what it took to defeat LV, but something about the combination of James and Lily, gives the extra something needed to Harry. Kristen From abush at maine.rr.com Sat Jul 3 01:57:56 2004 From: abush at maine.rr.com (kyliemckenzie1225) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 01:57:56 -0000 Subject: CoS clues to Books 6 & 7 analysis Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104129 previously boyd_smythe wrote: "So what did it take for Tom Riddle to become the powerful dark lord? We can only guess, but my thought is that Tom Riddle was filled with hatred and self-loathing. Why? He hated mixed-bloods yet was a half-blood himself. He hated and killed his father, the only family he had. Shunned by other students, he hated them, too. He even hates DD, who probably was kind and tried to help him. In short, Tom hated the world for cursing him with his wretched life. And he wanted *revenge*." kylie responds: boyd makes some great points and I agree with most, but where is canon that suggests Tom Riddle was shunned by other students? (tho' I agree he did hate them). We know he was handsome, smart, charming, and trusted by most of the teachers (but didn't fool Dumbledore) AND he was made Head Boy, so he must have had some popularity. From abush at maine.rr.com Sat Jul 3 02:06:03 2004 From: abush at maine.rr.com (kyliemckenzie1225) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 02:06:03 -0000 Subject: How Rare are Muggle-borns? and Analysis of "Purity" in the Order Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104130 "karenoc1" wrote: "Remus Lupin - probably pureblood? Half-breed? (Still alive at conclusion of OoP)" kylie responds: Actually, if you read the World Book Day chat with JKR, she tells us Remus Lupin is a half-blood. He was my first guess as the half blood prince, although I don't have any theories worked up as to how or why yet. kylie From abush at maine.rr.com Sat Jul 3 02:05:53 2004 From: abush at maine.rr.com (kyliemckenzie1225) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 02:05:53 -0000 Subject: How Rare are Muggle-borns? and Analysis of "Purity" in the Order Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104131 "karenoc1" wrote: "Remus Lupin - probably pureblood? Half-breed? (Still alive at conclusion of OoP)" kylie responds: Actually, if you read the World Book Day chat with JKR, she tells us Remus Lupin is a half-blood. He was my first guess as the half blood prince, although I don't have any theories worked up as to how or why yet. kylie From janedeau at mac.com Sat Jul 3 01:23:19 2004 From: janedeau at mac.com (Jane Deau) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 18:23:19 -0700 Subject: slytherin sides with Hogwarts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9129082A-CC8F-11D8-B47F-000D932805D4@mac.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104132 If I remember correctly, and if I don't I am sure someone here can correct me, didn't both Dumbledore and the Sorting Hat say something about all the Houses at Hogwarts will have to work together to defeat Voldemort? I think then that that will have to happen. It seems by the seventh year Draco will be the (at least unofficial) leader of his House and for Slytherin to side with Hogwarts rather than the Death Eaters it may be because Draco has a change of heart. Or everyone in Slytherin but Draco and his cronies side with Hogwarts and Draco ultimately suffers a terrible comeuppance. Thoughts? -Jane Deau From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 3 02:31:12 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 02:31:12 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 21, The Eye of the Snake In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104133 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Dicey Elfwrote:> > > 4. JKR very deliberately prevents Hagrid from naming the 'stringy > > Slytherin boy.' Who could he be and why keep his name secret? (And > > don't say it's that kid from > > That-Which-Should-Be-Discussed-On-HPFGU-Movie, because we don't > know > > who *he* is, either.) > > Potioncat: > Ok, to be honest, for a short time I thought the name might be Snape > (sounds like young Snape) or some very surprising name like that > which would have everyone asking "How dim is Harry?" But given that > Zabini has been confirmed as a boy, I'm guessing this one is Nott. I > came across a similar episode in GoF where something was interrupted > and and then revealed later in the same book. Here I'm assuming > weedy and stringy are the same. (Nott is weedy looking in the > library.) We also know now that Nott's mother is dead. I wonder if > he saw her die? Carol: I've thought that the "stringy" Slytherin boy was the "weedy" Theodore Nott since I first read the two passages and put them together iwth the GoF scene in which Theo's father is introduced. And since we see from JKR's Web site that she's given quite a bit of thought to who Theodore Nott is and why he isn't a close friend of Draco's, it just makes sense that the "stringy" boy and the "weedy" boy are the same person. And as you say, Theo's mother is dead, so it's quite likely that he, like Harry and Neville, would be able to see a Thestral. I'm quite certain that Theo Nott will play some significant role in Book 6--a Slytherin we can identify with and have compassion for? A foil to Draco? A Snape in the making? All of these? Anyway, there's no question in my mind that Potioncat is right and the "stringy" Slytherin boy who sees the Thestrals is Theodore Nott. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 3 02:48:13 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 02:48:13 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 21, The Eye of the Snake In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104134 > > 2. Is it significant that the first Thestral appears between two > yew > > trees? > > Meri: I am fairly sure that the yew means death, so that was a nice > bit of symbolism on JKR's part. Carol: Actually the yew tree, although parts of it are poisonous, is traditionally planted in graveyards as a symbol of immortality. JKR mentions yew trees in the graveyard scene in GoF fairly near the point at which "the bone of the father" (Tom Riddle Sr.) unwittingly renews his son. And more significantly, Voldemort's wand is made of yew, a darker parallel to Harry's, which is made of holly, a traditional Christian (and pagan) symbol of rebirth. My thought is that Voldemort mistakenly longs for *earthly* immortality, whereas true rebirth is spiritual and occurs after we embark on the "last great adventure," which is death. Doesn't sound very promising for Harry, though, so I hope I'm misinterpreting here. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 3 03:08:21 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 03:08:21 -0000 Subject: Locked Doors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104135 Lady McBeth wrote: > It occurred to me reading one of the Book 6 posts that we are seeing > a lot of locked doors in books 1--5. I'm not sure if I remember them all, but feel free to add to the list if I have! > GOF-Not sure about this one and my copy of the book is out on loan. > Are there locked doors in GOF-the only one that comes to mind in the > Prefects Bathroom used to solve Task 2. Carol: I'm not sure iif this counts, but after Snape's office is broken into, he says that he put a spell on the door that "only a skilled wizard could break" (quoting from memory here). He later assumes that the "skilled wizard" is Harry, but it turns out to be Fake!Moody. Carol From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Sat Jul 3 03:32:26 2004 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 03:32:26 -0000 Subject: Dean is Gary? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104136 If my memory is correct, I read on a post several days ago that JKR said that Dean's name really is Gary? Is this true? If so, would someone point me in the right direction to read about it? Thanks! Julie From alina at distantplace.net Sat Jul 3 03:41:29 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 23:41:29 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dean is Gary? References: Message-ID: <014501c460af$a093f190$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 104137 > If my memory is correct, I read on a post several days ago that JKR > said that Dean's name really is Gary? Is this true? If so, would > someone point me in the right direction to read about it? > > Thanks! > Julie All the information is on her website at http://www.jkrowling.co.uk. No, Dean's real isn't Gary, Gary is the name he was given in one of the earlier drafts of the story. He does however have a more complicated background than the story discloses, because Rowling said she didn't find an opportunity to insert it into the books. He is a half-blood rather than a muggle-born, and Rowling lists this information as taken out of her initial draft of book 2. Alina. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 3 04:36:35 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 04:36:35 -0000 Subject: Neville in the end / Pureblood Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104138 Tina asked: > A lot has been established about Harry being a half blood. But a > half blood is someone that is born of a wizard and a muggle. That > said, wouldn't Harry in fact be pureblood since both parents > (regardless of their parentage) were a witch and a wizard? Carol: I wondered the same thing when I first joined this group. Someone (can't remember who) explained to me that Lily as a Muggleborn contributes Muggle blood; James as a pureblood contributes wizard blood; therefore Harry is a halfblood just as he would be if his mother were a nonmagical Muggle. Put another way, he has two wizard grandparents and two Muggle grandparents--again, half and half. BTW, it's possible that Lupin, whom JKR tells us is a halfblood, is also the child of a Muggleborn and a pureblood rather than a witch or wizard and a Muggle. I personally would like to find that out. Carol From gopotter2004 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 3 04:40:01 2004 From: gopotter2004 at yahoo.com (gopotter2004) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 04:40:01 -0000 Subject: Romulus and Remus, Was: Little King Regulus = the Prince? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104139 "clio44a" wrote: Ok, while this is really just getting thrown out there because it popped into my head and i feel it's worth stating, it's not unlikely that there will be some Romulus/Remus action at some point in the next two books, be it Lupin dying at the hand of a brother or something of the sort... Romulus was the first king of Rome, kings start as princes. Becky, who is also behind the Mark Evans theory, though she wants to explore Thoedore Nott as a not-so-likely-since-he's-probably-a-pure- blood option From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 3 04:51:33 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 04:51:33 -0000 Subject: Is education a right or a privilege in WW? In-Reply-To: <40DF99CA.23180.AE2B7@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104140 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" wrote: > On 27 Jun 2004 at 14:05, djrfdh wrote: > > > So, how did Harry get into Hogwarts? By virtue of his "magical > > wizarding level"? Hardly, since he was not exposed to anything > > magical from age one to age eleven;( unless you count the odd things > > that seemed to "happen" whenever he got mad or upset!) Did he get in > > because he was the "notable" son of two of Hogwarts most well-known > > students? Or did Harry gain entry because he was "famous" for having > > survived a LV attack and therefore entitled to the best "defensive" > > education as compensation for losing his parents, that the WW could > > offer? > > No, on the MQ/MP idea I've postulated he got in because his MP/MQ > was high enough (I suspect it's unusually high) and because he did > have exposure to magic as an infant which did trigger later > spontaneous magic. > > What I have proposed is not an idea that requires a child to have > constant contact with magic - just *some* - to trigger magical > ability at MP 900. Harry had a solid year of it with his family. > That's enough. The key to the idea is that if there is virtually > none, it won't happen at that point - but Harry had at least some > (and being surrounded by protective magic may also have been a > factor). Carol: But Hagrid says in SS/PS that Harry's name has been down in the Hogwarts book since he was born. I imagine Neville's was, too; Gran and the rest of the family just didn't know it. also we have no evidence of any kind of contract or test of magical ability; only the magical quill, which appears to apply to all magical children, not just Muggleborns. (The question JKR was answering was a two-parter. Only one part related to Muggleborns.) I'm thinking that the Stan Shunpikes of the WW got into Hogwarts originally because they were born magical but failed all their O.W.L.S. and consequently couldn't continue in school and so became bus conductors and the like. Maybe that will happen with Crabbe and Goyle, who by your criteria should never have been admitted to Hogwarts--although at least they haven't melted any cauldron bottoms like Neville. Crabbe and Goyle as janitors in the MoM, anyone? (Just don't make them prison guards at Azkaban.) Carol From drednort at alphalink.com.au Sat Jul 3 05:11:10 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 15:11:10 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is education a right or a privilege in WW? In-Reply-To: References: <40DF99CA.23180.AE2B7@localhost> Message-ID: <40E6CC8E.17392.17F9867@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 104141 On 3 Jul 2004 at 4:51, justcarol67 wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" > wrote: > > On 27 Jun 2004 at 14:05, djrfdh wrote: > > > > > So, how did Harry get into Hogwarts? By virtue of his "magical > > > wizarding level"? Hardly, since he was not exposed to anything > > > magical from age one to age eleven;( unless you count the odd things > > > that seemed to "happen" whenever he got mad or upset!) Did he get in > > > because he was the "notable" son of two of Hogwarts most well-known > > > students? Or did Harry gain entry because he was "famous" for having > > > survived a LV attack and therefore entitled to the best "defensive" > > > education as compensation for losing his parents, that the WW could > > > offer? > > > > No, on the MQ/MP idea I've postulated he got in because his MP/MQ > > was high enough (I suspect it's unusually high) and because he did > > have exposure to magic as an infant which did trigger later > > spontaneous magic. > > > > What I have proposed is not an idea that requires a child to have > > constant contact with magic - just *some* - to trigger magical > > ability at MP 900. Harry had a solid year of it with his family. > > That's enough. The key to the idea is that if there is virtually > > none, it won't happen at that point - but Harry had at least some > > (and being surrounded by protective magic may also have been a > > factor). > > Carol: > But Hagrid says in SS/PS that Harry's name has been down in the > Hogwarts book since he was born. I imagine Neville's was, too; Gran > and the rest of the family just didn't know it. also we have no > evidence of any kind of contract or test of magical ability; only the > magical quill, which appears to apply to all magical children, not > just Muggleborns. (The question JKR was answering was a two-parter. > Only one part related to Muggleborns.) Yeah, but the idea doesn't *require* testing. Somehow the Quill knows at birth which children will qualify and which don't. There's no testing involved. > I'm thinking that the Stan Shunpikes of the WW got into Hogwarts > originally because they were born magical but failed all their > O.W.L.S. and consequently couldn't continue in school and so became > bus conductors and the like. Maybe that will happen with Crabbe and > Goyle, who by your criteria should never have been admitted to > Hogwarts--although at least they haven't melted any cauldron bottoms > like Neville. Crabbe and Goyle as janitors in the MoM, anyone? (Just > don't make them prison guards at Azkaban.) No, my criteria does *not* mean Crabbe and Goyle should never have been admitted to Hogwarts. In fact the theory as I presented it specifically addresses Goyle: "[Note - it must be stated here that MQ must be only part of the standard for success at Hogwarts. Conventional IQ - intelligence - obviously plays a part in a students success as well. But I think MQ is the determining factor for entry - otherwise its hard to explain Goyle]." MQ has nothing to do with intelligence - it only has to do with magical power. To be a highly successful wizard, both intelligence and magical power are useful - but they don't always go together. Goyle may lack intelligence - it doesn't mean he lacks raw magical power. See - Hermione is undoubtedly smarter than Harry (higher IQ) but I think Harry is more powerful than Hermione (higher MQ). Which is more important depends on the spell - if it's complex Hermione will have the edge. If it simply requires a great deal of power, Harry would. Hermione I don't think is weak - just as I don't think Harry is stupid. They just stand out in different ways. The theory is not that complex, and it's not necessarily correct by any means - but it does take people like Crabbe and Goyle into account. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Sat Jul 3 05:35:38 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 05:35:38 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 21, The Eye of the Snake In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104142 "Dicentra spectabilis" wrote: > 5. Why might Ron have forgotten to tell Harry that he was invited to > The Burrow for Christmas? Why does Hermione roll her eyes? --------- I wonder if, subconsciously, Ron was yearning for time away from Harry with his family. He's not very much time with his family where his Mum's not fussing over Harry more than we ever see her fuss over Ron. I just remember way back in PS, when Ron pull out his corned beef sandwhich and grimaces at it. He says he's always hated corned beef but his mum always forgets. How hard is a it for a mother to know this? Mum mum had four kids and never miuxed up what he each disliked. Wow. I mean, Ron muct really not rate at all for this to be forgotton. So, look at Harry, who I can bet if he expressed a like of dislike, Molly would make no mistake in forgetting--I think there may be a little harboured ill-will there. Not major. Not overt. Not even consciou. But just, you know, one little peice of straw on the proverbial camel's back. Plus, there's the excuse that Ron just doesn't realize both that he ought to mention it to Harry and that Harry would be extreemely prone to feeling left out when it comes to making family plans. (To steal Hermione's words, he's an insensitive wart.) --------- > 8. Why oh why does the kiss take place off stage? How could JKR *do* > this to me? --------- I think part of it is so that we the readers have very little emotional attachment to the Cho/Harry relationship. I don't buy that a description of a mere kiss is too scandelous for the likes of Bloosmsbury literature. If falls in love and has that mind blowing kiss we all wish for, make no mistake, we'll be there for it because that will actually be something we're supposed to care about and attach ourselves to. Arya From dzeytoun at cox.net Sat Jul 3 02:45:01 2004 From: dzeytoun at cox.net (dzeytoun) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 02:45:01 -0000 Subject: a boy in search of a father In-Reply-To: <40E5D1DC.8060003@tds.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104143 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, squeakinby wrote: > I was wondering today how I would feel if Harry doesn't resolve this > search for a father by the end of the series. It would be almost as bad > as if he dies because wouldn't a part of him either die or remain > unborn? Doesn't he remain scarred for life if this isn't addressed? > > It would seem very efficient if the HBP could fill the role as a father > figure but I would suspect great conflict on Harry's part in accepting > that relationship. I agree that it would be a true tragedy for this not to be resolved. As it stands now, I think there are two main candidates for a "paternal" figure in Harry's life: 1) Dumbledore - more of a grandfather, I suppose, but he could be the HBP and his comments about "knowing how Harry feels" definitely indicate there is more to learn about his family past 2) Lupin - he would certainly qualify as a good father figure being the last of the marauders, in fact one can make a good case that he would be a better father figure than Sirius (although to be fair Sirius never got much of a chance to prove himself). JKR has also said he will play a large role in the last couple of books. Dzeytoun From mietoesarepink at comcast.net Sat Jul 3 02:54:10 2004 From: mietoesarepink at comcast.net (chbagirl05) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 02:54:10 -0000 Subject: Harry will die Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104144 So personally, I think Harry will die at the end of all this. I know that sounds a bit harsh, but I truly believe Harry would be happier if he did. Dumbldore told us in Chamber Of Secrets that Harry had a bond with Lord Voldemort between wands and inside due to some of Voldemorts powers being transfored when the curse failed. SO I personaly think if Harry kills Voldemort, he himself will also die beacause of the bond. Harry resents it when others stare at his scar, and in the forth book it seemed more then ever that he just wanted to be a normal kid. Now that his Godfather has left him, he dosen't have anyone he feels he can relate too. Not to mention his parents being gone. That's all Harry has ever really wanted, to be with his family and not gawked at because of some scar on his head. And hasn't Harry emotionally lived a longer life then most of the other wizards...? Mind you I could definitely be wrong.... "mietoesarepink" From aandj at labyrinth.net.au Sat Jul 3 03:24:53 2004 From: aandj at labyrinth.net.au (Jocelyn Grunow) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 14:24:53 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: <20040702235852.98912.qmail@web52410.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104145 I have been thinking a lot about what everyone has posted about Sirius. I don't have the original posts to refer back to, as I didn't realise that this thread was going to linger in my mind. I agree that James moved on & grew up and Sirius didn't. But if you think about it, Sirius was only in his early 20s when Harry was born. James may well have assumed that Sirius WOULD grow up, when he found a reason to. Lily and Harry were probably his own reason to grow up, and it would be natural to assume that a foster-brother who appeared to dote on his godson would grow to meet the demands of guardianship. And in fact he may have done so under more normal conditions. I read a scientific article recently which said that there is a region of the brain which engages when considering consequences. This develops at different rates in different people, but generally is finished developing in most young women by their late teens, however in many males it may not develop until the late 20s. Obviously there is a spread in individual development which you may imagine finishes later in the male population. So there is Sirius, still immature in his early 20s, thrust into Azkaban with nothing to do but dwell on the past. In fact he remained suspended in time, fixated on his school-days, his school-friends and the evils of the past for TEN YEARS. Isn't that what the dementors DO? He was continually thrust by them into his darkest days, with no opportunity to move forward or develop perspective. Even after his escape, he was unable to assist in the grown-up tasks around him, to use his strength and skills and to form more normal relationships; to succeed in something and build for the future. Instead he was locked in a house he hated, with all around him infused with a mighty purpose he wasn't able to assist.... No one had the time, or perhaps the will and insight, to counsel him, and he would have needed a LOT of that. No one loved him enough. Someone said that people who came back from the wars moved on, but there were a lot who didn't: veterans who had rages, who shunned the world, who ate their guns or cried in locked rooms. There were a lot of veterans who went on a binge of frivolity to recover their missed years, which didn't prevent them having nightmares and jumping at loud noises. I see Sirius as a tragically stunted figure. The life he led magnified his flaws. He was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Jocelyn From marnyhelfrich at comcast.net Sat Jul 3 03:35:29 2004 From: marnyhelfrich at comcast.net (Marny Helfrich) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 23:35:29 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dean is Gary? References: Message-ID: <028a01c460ae$c9a92ce0$8e2f8c45@mynewputer> No: HPFGUIDX 104146 > If my memory is correct, I read on a post several days ago that JKR > said that Dean's name really is Gary? I think it's in the "extras" bits of her webpage, and that what she says is that in early manuscripts, Dean's name was Gary, but she changed it. It also gives his "backstory," which ended up not making it into the book, either Marny From mietoesarepink at comcast.net Sat Jul 3 03:55:39 2004 From: mietoesarepink at comcast.net (chbagirl05) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 03:55:39 -0000 Subject: A different interpretation of the prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104147 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "massiveroadtrauma" wrote: > Roo wrote: > > Yet her "extremely carefully" worded prophecy uses "either" and > > "neither." Could it then be read as "and EITHER (Harry or Neville) > > must die at the hand of the OTHER (Voldemort) for NEITHER (Harry nor > > Neville) can live while the OTHER (Voldemort) survives" ? > > Were your interpretation correct, it could be paraphrased > as "Voldemort must kill either Neville or Harry (one of them), > because neither Harry nor Neville (the both) can live whilst > Voldemort survives." > > ...which doesn't ring true to me. I totaly agree with you. I've been also thinking about three being involved in the prophecy! (HArry Neville and LV of course.) I truly don't think that LV is as absentminded or stupid as we think of him... in the first book he "forgot" that love from Harry's mother would save him, in the Second book he "forgot" that a pheniox tear heals all... it just seems to easy that Voldemort didn't think of Harry and both Neville.. Maybe Voldemort attacked Neville the same day as Harry but first, then placed a strong memory charm on Neville (this would be why NEville seems to have a really hard time remembering things). Then after marking Neville, LV went to mark Harry as well. After marking Harry the prophecy was sealed but it was strong magic so that was what lead to LV's down fall ... what if Harry is sent to try and destroy LV, but fails and ends up dying, and Neville will be forced to come and murder LV instead? After all Neville is kind of the undermineded kid, his parents were tortured and it seems that he dosen't nearly get as much fame as he should, where as Harry just wishes to blend in and be normal. Maybe it'd be better if Harry dies he would have what he most desperatly desires, a family and to be normal again. "mietoesarepink" From tinkerbell634 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 3 03:57:53 2004 From: tinkerbell634 at yahoo.com (I Am Lord Moldy Vat) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 03:57:53 -0000 Subject: Even crazier... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104148 Tara writes: What do y'all think, too early to discuss Book 7? Pixie: This is the perfect opportunity to throw out an idea I've been kicking around for a while. JKR has, in many interviews that the idea for Harry Potter just floated into her head one day while on a train. Something I'd really like to see somewhere close to the end of book 7 is someone (DD? Harry?) planting the story/idea for Harry into a random muggle's head on a train! Think about it: If said muggle were to write the story of what happened in a book, not only would the whole world think the story was fiction, but said muggle herself would too! And if the wizard who sent the idea had the intention of spreading the story to muggles without letting them know about the WW, it would also explain HP's popularity worldwide. Questions? Comments? Rotten tomatoes? ~Pixie (of the superhappyfun variety!) From smartone56441070 at aol.com Sat Jul 3 06:10:31 2004 From: smartone56441070 at aol.com (smartone564) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 06:10:31 -0000 Subject: CoS clues to Books 6 & 7 analysis / Salazar and Godric In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104149 wrote: > Also, as others have discussed in this thread, I think that the > final confrontation will mirror the one in CoS to a certain > degree, perhaps directly involving Ginny in some way. It may be > Harry's feelings for her (yes, I'm a big H/G shipper, and R/Hr as > well) that give him the power to bring about Voldemort's > ultiamte defeat. I'm not really sure how that would work, if he > would have to rescue her, or maybe she rescues him, or > something, but I'm betting she's a major player in the big > finale. Smart responds: So if this new battle IS to reflect the old fight between GG and SS, what happened? We know SS got all huffy and left, but what did SS do after this? How did he die? Did he go on any rampage like LV is doing? Smart From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Sat Jul 3 06:16:47 2004 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 06:16:47 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_How=5FRare=5Fare=5FMuggle-borns=3F=5Fand=5FAnalysis=5Fof=5F=93Purity=94=5Fin=5Fthe=5FOrder?= In-Reply-To: <20040702214949.22221.qmail@web40412.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104150 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, House Yolande wrote: > Hey again! I've found more stuff relating to our HP talk last night. :) I couldn't think of the phrase last night, but Hermione is "muggle-born." So not muggle, but muggle-born. And James Potter is full blood. More info below (I've deleted the book 5-related info): > Justin Finch-Fletchley ? probably Muggle-born. > Definately. "Justin's been waiting for something like this to happen ever since he let slip to Potter he was Muggle-born." -- CoS > Hermione ? Muggle-born. I do find it interesting that the trio consists of one half-blood, one muggle-born, and one pure-blood. Oh, and regarding Lily, Harry refers to her once as "my common Muggle-born mother" right before Tom refers to him as a half- blood... --Arcum From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Sat Jul 3 06:26:33 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 06:26:33 -0000 Subject: a boy in search of a father In-Reply-To: <40E5D1DC.8060003@tds.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104151 squeakinby wrote: > I was wondering today how I would feel if Harry doesn't resolve this > search for a father by the end of the series. It would be almost as bad > as if he dies because wouldn't a part of him either die or remain > unborn? Doesn't he remain scarred for life if this isn't addressed? > > It would seem very efficient if the HBP could fill the role as a father > figure but I would suspect great conflict on Harry's part in accepting > that relationship. -------- Actually, I think we saw this foreshadowed in PoA quite well. By the time the books end, Harry is 17 and by all means, a man. Like he had to find his fatherr inside himself to produce his Patronus in PoA when he thought it'd been his dad who saved him, he will end his "search" for a father, when he realizes it's within himself. Perhaps, and this is assuming he will live, it will be in an epilogue type chapter where Harry realizes he gets the father-son relationship he's always wanted by having a son of his own and, this time, he's gets to be the father he never had and his son gets the childhood he never had.I think it will come full circle like this. It would be a bit too little, too late for someone to step forward (like Lupin even) now for the last two books. Harry is very much on his own in that regard. I think it's better that way. Really, of all the ages, 16 and 17 year olds are the least likely ages to be craving a fathe and so I doin't think he's missing much like he was back at 11, 12, and 13. Arya From smartone56441070 at aol.com Sat Jul 3 06:18:27 2004 From: smartone56441070 at aol.com (smartone564) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 06:18:27 -0000 Subject: Wands was:Re: CoS clues to Books 6 & 7 analysis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104152 wrote: > I guess I should say I know that the > reference of the charm wand was actually reference to Lily's first > wand, however, it would seem to stand to reason that a subsequent wand > would also be "charmed"? Ok, I probably missed this somewhere, but this is the second or third time I have heard that Lily's first wand went away? What happened to it, or where is that thread? > In this, could it also be that the wand belonging to Lily would indeed > backfire as it would "know" her son? Do you mean to say, that LV tried to use Lily's wand to AK Harry, but that the same wand had put a protection over him? Therefore, some damage (like the scar, house going boom) and protection (didnt kill him, hurt LV) occured? Smart, who is still confused, but feeling better about it. From smartone56441070 at aol.com Sat Jul 3 06:23:33 2004 From: smartone56441070 at aol.com (smartone564) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 06:23:33 -0000 Subject: The word "prince" in OotP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104153 Wanda wrote: > Frankly, I think Dumbledore has a point. Considering how > obnoxious Harry was in OotP, throwing in the faces of his > friends all his mighty deeds as The Great Harry Potter, I > shudder to think what he'd have been like if he'd been flattered > and cossetted all his life by a wizarding family. He seems to > be very vulnerable to Swelled-Head Syndrome (must get it from > his dad). Wouldn't he just look and act a lot like Dudders? Pampered by some wizard family, every minor wish granted as the family tries to pay back all the suffering they now don't have to face? Smart From smartone56441070 at aol.com Sat Jul 3 06:32:21 2004 From: smartone56441070 at aol.com (smartone564) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 06:32:21 -0000 Subject: Nott and other DE parents Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Ch. 21 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104154 Ok, if Nott's mother is dead, and his father is still alive, is it safe to assume he is living with his dad? I should sure hope so. In this case, what happens if/when DE parents are caught? (Was Mr. Nott captured at the end of OotP? I know Lucius was). So the caputered DE's go to Azkaban, the dementors leave, and ALL the prisoners are let out. Do the DE's kids still get to live with them, and can Lucius still go around in public, now that he has been proven to be a DE? Smart, who is still hopelessly lost. From smartone56441070 at aol.com Sat Jul 3 06:34:06 2004 From: smartone56441070 at aol.com (smartone564) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 06:34:06 -0000 Subject: Locked Doors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104155 > Carol: > I'm not sure iif this counts, but after Snape's office is broken into, > he says that he put a spell on the door that "only a skilled wizard > could break" (quoting from memory here). He later assumes that the > "skilled wizard" is Harry, but it turns out to be Fake!Moody. Don't forget that Dobby also got in there, to get the Gillyweed for the second GoF task. Snape also accused Harry of stealing that. Smart From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 3 06:50:03 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 06:50:03 -0000 Subject: Chapter 21, The Eye of the Snake - Is D.E.Nott Theo's Father? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104156 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" > wrote: > > Dicey Elfwrote:> > > 4. JKR very deliberately prevents Hagrid from naming the > > 'stringy Slytherin boy.' Who could he be and why keep his name > > secret? > > Carol: > I've thought that the "stringy" Slytherin boy was the "weedy" > Theodore Nott since I first read the two passages and put them > together with the GoF scene in which Theo's father is introduced. Asian_lovr2: Do we really know that the Death Eater Nott is Theodore Nott's father? I've always assumed it myself, and I know where I got the idea, I'm just not sure if I trust it. I remember Harry seeing Draco, Grabbe, and Goyle along with T.Nott giving him malevolent looks in the library, and Harry knew it was because, "He had named all of their fathers as Death Eaters." But I don't know if we can take this literally or as Harry making a general statement. He did indeed name three of the four's fathers, and perhaps includes the fourth as a generalization; a quick and easy way to make the most statement with the fewest words. Remember it's during this scene that Hermione tells Harry Theordore Notts name. "He saw them sitting with their heads together ... in the library ... with a weedy-looking boy Hermione whispered was called Theodore Nott." It's reasonable that Harry assumed Nott's father was the Death Eater Nott that he had previously encountered, but does it confirm it? Is this scene a statement of fact by JKR, is this hard information for the readers, or is it Harry making an assumption? Is there any place else in any of the books where a connection is made between Theo and the Death Eater Nott? >Carol continues: > > ... JKR's (has) ... given quite a bit of thought to who > Theodore Nott is and why he isn't a close friend of Draco's, it just > makes sense that the "stringy" boy and the "weedy" boy are the same > person. ... I'm quite certain that Theo Nott will play some > significant role in Book 6--a Slytherin we can identify with and > have compassion for? A foil to Draco? A Snape in the making? ... > > ... > > Carol Asian_lovr2: '...Theo Nott ...significant role ...identify with ...have compassion for?' You mean a 'Good Slytherin'? I agree that T.Nott must have some very significant role in the future. Especially when you consider the subtle and sneaky way he's been incorporated into the story. I'm just not sure what it is. Based on the fact that He and Harry have never had a significant encounter (Harry doesn't know his name), T.Nott can't have strong feeling against Harry, and equally he is probably not a strong supporter of Draco at school (this last part was also confirmed by JKR's website). There is just one problem I have, how do we resolve T.Nott being a good guy with the fact that his father is a Death Eater (or so we are lead to believe)? If T.Nott is not going to support Draco, Voldemort, and/or the Death Eaters, by default he is on the side of good, even if it turns out he is not a nice guy. Snape is not a nice guy, and he still appears to be on the side of good. But, again, how would it be possible for T.Nott to take that position without indeed getting on the bad side of Draco, his own Father, the DE's, and Voldemort? I think the key to T.Nott is not in determining IF he is significant, because I among other am convinced he is, the true quesion is HOW is he significant, and HOW is he going to get away with it? Maybe that's why I'm more of a Blaise Zabini fan, there aren't a lot of facts or information mucking up my theories. Just at thought. Steve/asian_lovr2 From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 3 07:12:57 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 07:12:57 -0000 Subject: Broderick Bode's visitor In-Reply-To: <75996872.20040627181546@mindspring.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104157 Dave wrote: I have been wondering, since I've never seen the > name anywhere else, whether Broderick Bode may be a descendant of the 18th century astronomer Johann Bode, who I gather was sort of a Gilderoy Lockhart of his time, both in charisma and in taking credit for other> people's work... > > -- > Dave Carol: I think Bode's name was chosen simply for its sinister connotations. The moment I read in GoF that Bode and Croker were Unspeakables, I felt that things didn't "Bode" well for either of them. (Croker may also "croak"--forgive the horrible pun, which works in american English, but I don't know whether it has the same meaning to a British reader.) Also, wasn't he described as "sepulchral" in the elevator scene in OoP? Again, the adjective doesn't bode well for Broderick Bode. At any rate, Bode is not exactly charismatic, whoever his ancestors may be. Regarding his visitor (from an earlier post that I snipped), the visitor may be perfectly innocent since he didn't bring the plant. It was sent anonymously. Maybe his gift was the calendar with the fnacy hippogriffs. (?) Carol, who's pretty sure we haven't heard the end of this incident From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sat Jul 3 08:19:39 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 08:19:39 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104158 Jocelyn Grunow wrote: > Instead he was locked in a house he hated, with all around him > infused with a mighty purpose he wasn't able to assist.... No one > had the time, or perhaps the will and insight, to counsel him, and > he would have needed a LOT of that. No one loved him enough. Del replies : The rest of your post was convincing enough, but this bit I disagree with. I think there was at least one person who cared a lot for Sirius, who loved him : Remus Lupin. In PoA, after being separated for years, after having suspected each other of treason years before, they embraced like brothers. In OoP, we are told that Remus lives at GP when he's not on Order's business, and we see that he keeps a close eye on Sirius. Remus is obviously very concerned about Sirius, and I'm sure he tried his best to help him. But I think that it was *Sirius* who refused his help. Sirius was a proud, arrogant man, and he used to be one of the leaders of the Marauders, while Remus was a follower. So I think Sirius might have refused, quite unconsciously maybe, any help his best friend wanted to give him. He tried to heal himself, but unfortunately that included reviving the Marauders, with Harry in the role of James (I'm not saying Sirius was aware of what he was doing, though). It was a bad idea, especially with Harry being so different from his father, and it backfired on Sirius, making him feel even worse. Del From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sat Jul 3 08:39:16 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 08:39:16 -0000 Subject: Chapter 21, The Eye of the Snake - Is D.E.Nott Theo's Father? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104159 Steve asked : > Do we really know that the Death Eater Nott is Theodore Nott's > father? Del replies : JKR says so on her website : "raised by a very elderly widower and Death Eater father, Theodore is a clever loner who does not feel the need to join gangs, including Malfoy's" Steve wrote : > There is just one problem I have, how do we resolve T.Nott being a > good guy with the fact that his father is a Death Eater (or so we > are lead to believe)? (snip) > But, again, how would it be possible for T.Nott to take that > position without indeed getting on the bad side of Draco, his own > Father, the DE's, and Voldemort? Del replies : Easy and tough : his father dies. JKR describes him on her website as very elderly, and we know that he was injured during the battle in the DoM. Maybe he will die from his injuries ? This would release Theo from his loyalty to his father, which might have been the only reason he never spoke up against Draco. Moroever, if Draco turns definitely evil and starts waging a war against Harry (not that I think he's got the guts for that...), maybe Theo will finally decide he has to take sides. Being a loner is fine during times of peace, but it gets dangerous and uncomfortable during times of war, when both sides might consider you to belong to the other side. Only suppositions of course, but you asked for them ;-) Del From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Sat Jul 3 09:06:09 2004 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 21:06:09 +1200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Patronus - was: James Potter's "profession" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040703210231.03544dd0@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 104160 At 11:55 2/07/2004, you wrote: >a wrote > >I really like this idea... The only problem is that when I searched >for the interview in which JKR said that James' Patronus was a >nose-biting teacup, I couldn't find anything on it... Do you happen >to remember where the interview originally appeared, or where a >transcript can currently be found? > >a Tanya here I have never heard of such an interview. But one problem. If I recall correctly isn't it canon fact that the patronus and animagi forms the same? While it is hilarious to imagine a nose biting teapot animagi James, he turned out to be a stag. Still there could very easily be a link with him to Zonkos. Tanya [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat Jul 3 09:37:05 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 09:37:05 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104161 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Nora Renka" wrote: > > You know, I'm completely and utterly away from my books right now, so > I could be COMPLETELY remembering wrong, but isn't there a comment > somewhere in PoA, I think, about Sirius and James being at the top of > their class? My lack-of-sleep-addled mind wants to say it's > McGonagall. Kneasy: Yes, she does. Naturally I discount this (would you expect anything else?) My reading of McGonagals character is that she's one of those teachers for whom all geese are swans, and in addition would use a measure of hyperbole when talking of someone that a) she liked, and b) was dead. She just strikes me as that type. I may be wrong. But I do find it interesting that after cobbling together a long, not very complimentary screed on the life and times of Sirius he seems to have so few committed defenders. Has a silent reassessment taken place among the posters? Or is it because so many were fixated on JKR's website and Sirius fell down the list of priorities for posting? Nora: > Dementors go for emotions, which are a rather different kettle of > fish than thoughts and even intelligence--and unless you're going to > be SO skeptical (tsk, tsk!) to not believe the comment that emotions > are simpler when a dog, even if you do keep your human > intelligence....well... :) Seems to me that that's a pretty clear > piece of JKR exposition. It's possible to doubt everything, but then > where do you end up? > Kneasy: Why should they be simpler? Emotions are simple - very simple. Anger is anger, love is love, hate is hate, fear is fear. What could be simpler than that? Now if you can demonstrate (with empirical proof) any differences between human (a self-regarding animal) and dog emotions, I'll be happy to concede. Nora > (For the record, dear Kneasy, I will say gently and fondly that I > think you'll be disappointed at how the series overall wraps up, > based on past comments about what would be disappointing to yourself, > that I didn't respond to then. Snape will have a backstory, and it > will be remarkably straightforward and make other things make > sense. Things that seemed to be deeply significant won't be. Sic > transit gloria mundi.) Kneasy: Could be, could be. But that won't stop me having fun in the meantime. Theorising and speculation - it's an excellent mental exercise, helps one stave off the awful day when one finally succumbs to the horrors of daytime television - or *any* television, come to that. Besides, it gives me an opportunity to cross verbs with the younger lot. From sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com Sat Jul 3 09:39:07 2004 From: sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com (sevenhundredandthirteen) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 09:39:07 -0000 Subject: Patronus / Lily's Patronus In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20040703210231.03544dd0@pop3.xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104162 > Tanya here: > > I have never heard of such an interview. But one problem. If I > recall correctly isn't it canon fact that the patronus and animagi > forms the same? No. We are told each Patronus is unique to the wizard who creates it in PoA. And we are told next to nothing about how the animagus animal fits the wizard (Although we assume that it takes of personal characteristics). We don't know of any two character who can form both a Patronus and turn into an animagus, so there is no way of comparing. There's never any indication that Patronuses need to be animals. I think they are unlikely to be related- one being a tranfiguration skill, the other being a charm skill. Animagi forms we know- McGonagall, Rita, James, Sirius, Pettigrew. Patronus form we know- Harry, Hermione, Cho. So, none of them overlap. In canon there's never any indication that James even *can* form a corporeal Patronus in canon. Apart from Harry, only Lupin and Dumbledore are proven to be able to produce some sort of silvery stuff under presure. It seems to be a very advanced thing, and not exactly practical either- how many Dementors does the average wizard come across who want to suck out their souls? I mean, it's effective and all, but who would bother to even learn how to do it, if the Dementors were just meant to stay on Azkaban all their lives? The nose biting tea cup idea is really funny, but I wonder whether or not it's just something from a fanfic which has been confused with an actual JKR interview. There are some convincing fanfic tidbits out there, and I too often wish they were actually part of canon. It looks bleak for the nose biting Patronus thing to turn out as no-one has recalled this interview as yet... *crosses fingers*. Interestingly enough, when writing this post it clicked that a Patronus is a *charm* something which Lily is meant to have been good at (from what Ollivander says about her wand in PS). It's more likely *she* was able to produce one, rather than 'excellent-at- transfiguration' James. I wonder, what would Lily's Patronus have been? She doesn't have any animal parallel descriptors to guide us. Hmm... Any ideas? Surely not a doe... Unicorn? ~<(Laurasia)>~ From smartone56441070 at aol.com Sat Jul 3 06:52:48 2004 From: smartone56441070 at aol.com (smartone564) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 06:52:48 -0000 Subject: Harry will die In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104163 chbagirl05 wrote: > Dumbldore told us in Chamber Of Secrets that Harry had a > bond with Lord Voldemort between wands and inside due to > some of Voldemorts powers being transfored when the curse > failed. SO I personaly think if Harry kills Voldemort, he himself > will also die beacause of the bond. Well, Harry managed to live for a whole year without LV (or some weird part of him, or even TR), so I think we would be able to live one after that part has passed. Also, its a part of him, maybe it is still to be with him. > Harry resents it when others stare at his scar, and in the forth > book it seemed more then ever that he just wanted to be a > normal kid. Now that his Godfather has left him, he dosen't > have anyone he feels he can relate too. Not to mention his > parents being gone. You are, of course, ignoring the fact that Lupin could fill in. This would also go along with the theory that James is somehow Lupin, since many believed he acted as a father in PoA. And, as some canon, JKR said Lupin would have a larger role in the next two books. This seems aan ideal spot for him. Smart, who finally answered a question with an answer, not a question. (Though who is to say if they are right?) From smartone56441070 at aol.com Sat Jul 3 07:01:08 2004 From: smartone56441070 at aol.com (smartone564) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 07:01:08 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104164 Jocelyn Grunow wrote: > So there is Sirius, still immature in his early 20s, thrust into Azkaban > with nothing to do but dwell on the past. In fact he remained suspended in > time, fixated on his school-days, his school-friends and the evils of the > past for TEN YEARS. Isn't that what the dementors DO? He was continually > thrust by them into his darkest days, with no opportunity to move forward or > develop perspective. > > Even after his escape, he was unable to assist in the grown-up tasks around > him, to use his strength and skills and to form more normal relationships; > to succeed in something and build for the future. Instead he was locked in > a house he hated, with all around him infused with a mighty purpose he > wasn't able to assist.... No one had the time, or perhaps the will and > insight, to counsel him, and he would have needed a LOT of that. No one > loved him enough. So what you are saying means that even when Sirius escaped Azkaban, he still had to relive his old life, feelings, memories, etc. since he was again trapped in that old house, in which no one stayed for long. So basically, the only fun Sirius ever had was when he was immature and childish, during his school years after running away from home. Then, for the rest of his life, he was forced to relive the horrible past, with one or two exceptions. Forced to think about his past, this is what drove him to murder (Peter) since that is all he really had to think about in Azkaban, that wasn't necessarily a good feeling (it's murder/wrong) nor bad (avenging his best friend's death). Theses exceptions are when he was on the run, reminding him of the fun times he had on full moons at school. The other is for the brief visits HHR had, such as summer vacation and Christmas. Consequently, he never grew up, because growing up wasn't fun or happy. Similar to how Fudge ignored LV's return, because it was unpleasant. Smart, who doesn't believe Sirius was really bad. From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Sat Jul 3 07:02:14 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 3 Jul 2004 07:02:14 -0000 Subject: About Prophesies and Protections Message-ID: <20040703070214.20873.qmail@webmail7.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104165 >>>>>>>>>>>>Carolina : >>>>>>>>>>>>Look in the PS/DVD. There's an interview with Rowling where she talks >>>>>>>>>>>>about that scene. At least in the spanish edition. >>>>>>>>>>>>That's why I consider those few seconds canon (or very close to) and I >>>>>>>>>>>>find interesting the 'You heard James?' line combined with James >>>>>>>>>>>>specifically not appearing in the scene. A really good observation, and that casts a different light on the scene. But in GoF, Harry hears his father saying your mother is coming, then he might wonder if this was not the voice he heard. It is possible that he is a bit preoccupied then in fight than the voice, but still its a theory. (Though this part is removed from GoF now, so the whole theory might be wrong :)) >>>>>>>>>>>>From: "jimlaming" : >>>>>>>>>>>>In OOP, at GP, when Sirius is explaining his family tree to Harry, he >>>>>>>>>>>>explains that his mother had blasted several names, including his >>>>>>>>>>>>own, off the tapestry for various reasons, mostly betrayal to >>>>>>>>>>>>the "Family Values." >>>>>>>>>>>>Sirius says something about a person (male?) being missing and >>>>>>>>>>>>wonders out loud if it was because of Then Molly comes in with food >>>>>>>>>>>>or some other interruption and he does not finish or expand on that >>>>>>>>>>>>person. " My Uncle Alphard had left me a decent bit of gold - he's been wiped off here, too, that's probably why - " So the conversation is complete, as sirius talks about his life after that, so this might be just a bit of background information (though I will not like ot bet) >>>>>>>>>>>>From: "demetra1225" >>>>>>>>>>>>But Black's free hand had found Harry's throat ? >>>>>>>>>>>>"No," he hissed, "I've waited too long ---" >>>>>>>>>>>>The fingers tightened, Harry choked, his glasses askew. (PoA, page 340) >>>>>>>>>>>>Yep, he loves Harry all right. Just has a strange way of showing it. Yes, a strange way, but then, Harry was trying to kill him then, and at that moment, he might not have the time to gently push him aside. Also he didn't have a wand, so he could not "impedimenta" Harry or something like that. >>>>>>>>>>> From: "Eustace_Scrubb" >>>>>>>>>>>proposal then was that LV intended to eliminate both Harry and Neville >>>>>>>>>>>when he set out to Godric's Hollow. (another poster called this the >>>>>>>>>>>"King Herod syndrome," which I think is apt.) Although Dumbledore >>>>>>>>>>>tells Harry that Voldemort felt Harry was the most likely subject of >>>>>>>>>>>the prophecy (as the child of a muggle-born witch), that does not mean >>>>>>>>>>>that Lord Thingy meant to kill only one of the two boys. But he could >>>>>>>>>>>only be in one place at a time (unless time turners play a role) and >>>>>>>>>>>he decided to kill Harry first. A good proposal, but DD mentions in OoTP that LV chose Harry as his equal, so that means he didn't plan to kill Neville. But at the same time, I would really like to hear teh full details of Longbottoms incident. >>>>>>>>>>>Maybe there were books of dark magic spells and >>>>>>>>>>>objects in the Chamber. Maybe he allowed the spirit of Slytherin to >>>>>>>>>>>enter him. Dunno, but the Chamber Salazar built was the key. Why else >>>>>>>>>>>call it the Chamber of *Secrets*? Yes, it is called Chamber of *Secrets*, so it must hide some secrets, like maybe *Room of Requirements*. I mean, building such a large chamber just for a snake(however huge) and a statue (however huge), seems kind of vain. >>>>>>>>>>>manawydan: >>>>>>>>>>>I _think_ I recall that Dumbledore describes [unknown] as reporting straight >>>>>>>>>>>back to his (so we at least know the gender) master so there's no delay >>>>>>>>>>>there. But the delay in Voldemort's making his mind up is indeed strange (he >>>>>>>>>>>doesn't seem the sort to worry about a few broken eggs, why not kill both >>>>>>>>>>>infants if you're not sure? According to what DD says, he decided Harry was a danger to him more than Neville (of course, if you look at Neville now, at least upto GoF, he was right :)), so he went for Potters'. As for his delay, the parents had already "defied" LV thrice, so he had to make sure that he was successful when he reaches there ( fourth time lucky :)). Also, "Potters knew for a long time that he was going to come for them" (PoA Prof.McGonagall don't remember page no.), so he made up his mind quite early, but delayed the attack till he was quite sure. At least thats what i think. According to this theory, Longbottoms were victims bvecause they were in Order or at least they were Aurors, and so might have had some information. >>>>>>>>>>>Steve: >>>>>>>>>>>The big flaw in the 'Blood Protection' plan is that in order to be >>>>>>>>>>>protected, you have to stay at home. Dudley could be in danger at >>>>>>>>>>>school, Petunia that the grocery story, and Vernon at work. According to DD, Harry has the protection till he calls it his home, so I think DD must have taken care that the people at home are also safe. >>>>>>>>>>>I believe that the reciprocal occurred when Voldemort used Harry's blood in GoF to >>>>>>>>>>>reconstitute himself. (New and Improved Dehydrated Dark Lord! Just add blood!) >>>>>>>>>>>Now not only does Harry carry some of LV in him, but vice versa, and that's where I >>>>>>>>>>>think the crux will be in the climax - that spell will turn out to LV's downfall, >>>>>>>>>>>not just because he used Harry's blood, but also because he used Wormtail's flesh - >>>>>>>>>>>Wormtail, who owes Harry his life. Yes, this accounts for the gleam in DD's eyes when he hears the scene at the end of GoF. Also, he tells Harry at the end of PoA that he will be greatful about the bond between him and Wormtail one day, that suggests he might have saw this coming (at least for Wormtail), or here is one more example that DD uses time travel regularly. (At the end of PoA, in buckbeak scene, we all know that DD time travels, here is one more example.). - Amey, who thinks this post has gone long enough, so signing off... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat Jul 3 11:02:47 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 11:02:47 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104166 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "demetra1225" wrote= : > (much snipping) > I too have been thinking about Sirius and his story for a while, > probably since I read Kneasy's post #79808. > > Just to qualify where I'm coming from ? I like Snape (would probably > qualify as a Snape apologist), I like Harry (yes it is possible to > like both Snape and Harry) and I was puzzled by Sirius in PoA, liked > him in GoF and didn't like him at all in OotP. However, I was > convinced that he was being slipped a confusement and befuddlement > draft in OotP and that was what caused his seeming personality > change. I also thought that perhaps his passing through the veil was > a heroic and necessary act that he volunteered for (see Talisman's > Tactics&Prescience thread starting with post 66983 and my response > 76111). I'm less convinced of that now, although I do think that > Sirius may play a future role as a conduit between those living and > those who have moved on to the next great adventure. > > Most recently though, I started viewing Sirius in an altogether > different light. > > Because there is no doubt in my mind that Sirius is an impulsive man > who doesn't think things through and never grew up. And I can't buy > the argument that he couldn't mature because he was in Azkaban for 12 > years. Why hadn't he matured before then? > > Let's see, he talks about the full moon fondly to his werewolf > friend, who suffers greatly because of what he is. That's kind. > Then he refuses to help his friend study because he knows everything > already. Never mind that his friend might need some help. Not a > concern of Sirius', who acts as though the world revolves around > him. > And why does he send Snape to the shreiking shack knowing harm will > befall Lupin as well. Perhaps it is another example of Sirius acting > without thinking. Or, perhaps he was trying to kill two birds with > one stone .punish both Snape and Lupin. > I'm convinced > there is more to the Snape/Lupin dynamic than meets the eye. Both > seem to have been bookish when in school. James and Sirius don't. > Is it possible that Lupin and Snape ran across each other in the > library ? like Hermione and Krum? Could a tentative friendship have > started ? something that Sirius felt a need to end, and if Snape ends > up dead more's the better? And if Lupin could tentatively befriend > someone like Snape, couldn't you see Sirius taking that as evidence > that Lupin was the one who was betraying the order later? > > My only problem is that at the end of GoF Dumbledore says he trusts > both Snape and Sirius. So despite all my misgivings, I can concede that = > Sirus might be on the right side, although he is far from nice (IMHO > anyway). > Hope my snipping didn't butcher your intended meaning. IMO Sirius is a nasty character, written sympathetically. This raises the question - why? Is he the flawed hero, the Heathcliffe of Hogwarts? A thoroughly bad lot redeemed (in this case) by his love for Harry? Or is the sympathetic presentation a device to lull the unwary into thinking he's not as bad as he really is and so presenting the eventual proof of his betrayal in even starker contrast? One thing that most posters forget, even though it is thrust under our noses - the conflicts in the Potterverse are wider than just good vs evil. It can simplify matters if one ignores this; one can boil it all down to pro- or anti-Voldy, which is a mistake IMO. JKR has told us often enough how much background she writes on each character, even though she knows it will never be used in the books. Sirius is a case in point. There's an entire life history of Sirius in her = files and I'll bet the detail is mind-boggling. She knows Sirius as an individual= , likes, dislikes, hates, motivations, significant life events. Much, much more than we will ever see. Sirius has 'issues' (God, I hate that word) with his family, with Snape, with Peter, even as you point out, with Lupin. Superficially they seem to be explained - an antipathy to pure-blood attitudes, dislike of the 'idea' of someone like Snape, hatred for someone who betrays a friend, dismissive of those less assertive than himself. We don't know the full circumstances of the split with his family but with the others he bears as much blame as anyone for the divisions. All of it is personal and apparently not open to re-assessment or introspection. He has a whim of iron. It's unlikely that he would concede anything gracefully; he may never concede anything at all. It is not inconceivable that one or more of Sirius's 'personal' stances runs counter to the philosophical choices between good and evil. In principle he may be 'for' good, but if a personal antipathy to an individual conflicted with this, I think that general principles would go out of the window. His personal esteem, pride, would not allow him to let what he sees as an affront pass no matter what the ultimate consequences might be. Hubris. We see a shadow of this in his feud with Snape - and it hasn't been resolved, it's been cut short by his death. Do you really think JKR is going to leave it there? I don't. I'm expecting a lot more. And I can't see how Sirius will end up looking better, not given what we already know. Kneasy From greatraven at hotmail.com Sat Jul 3 11:04:22 2004 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 11:04:22 -0000 Subject: Romulus and Remus, Was: Little King Regulus = the Prince? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104167 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gopotter2004" wrote: > > "clio44a" wrote: > > A prince is a little king, right? > > Little King = Regulus > > > Ok, while this is really just getting thrown out there because it > popped into my head and i feel it's worth stating, it's not unlikely > that there will be some Romulus/Remus action at some point in the > next two books, be it Lupin dying at the hand of a brother or > something of the sort... > > Romulus was the first king of Rome, kings start as princes. > > Becky, who is also behind the Mark Evans theory, though she wants to > explore Thoedore Nott as a not-so-likely-since-he's-probably-a-pure- > blood option Sue Actually, the word "Basiliskos" means "Little King" and don't forget what role the basilisk played in an earlier novel. Don't know what this means, but ... snakes and Slytherins, right? ;-) From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Sat Jul 3 07:06:49 2004 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 07:06:49 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104168 Jocelyn: > I read a scientific article recently which said that there is a region of > the brain which engages when considering consequences. This develops at > different rates in different people, but generally is finished developing in > most young women by their late teens, however in many males it may not > develop until the late 20s. Obviously there is a spread in individual > development which you may imagine finishes later in the male population. > > So there is Sirius, still immature in his early 20s, thrust into Azkaban > with nothing to do but dwell on the past. In fact he remained suspended in > time, fixated on his school-days, his school-friends and the evils of the > past for TEN YEARS. Isn't that what the dementors DO? He was continually > thrust by them into his darkest days, with no opportunity to move forward or > develop perspective. > > Even after his escape, he was unable to assist in the grown-up tasks around > him, to use his strength and skills and to form more normal relationships; > to succeed in something and build for the future. Instead he was locked in > a house he hated, with all around him infused with a mighty purpose he > wasn't able to assist.... No one had the time, or perhaps the will and > insight, to counsel him, and he would have needed a LOT of that. No one > loved him enough. > [snip] > I see Sirius as a tragically stunted figure. The life he led magnified his > flaws. He was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Katie now: I originally wrote a huge response to Demetra's post, and then it got accidentally deleted (arrgh... very frustrating!) So, this will be sort of a response to the entire thread. I absolutely agree with what you're saying, Jocelyn, and would like to add to your comments, if I may. I do think Sirius is immature, but I think that, as Jocelyn says, he *was* relatively young when he went to Azkaban. (I believe I read that same article, Jocelyn, by the way, and entirely agree with you here. The article said that decision-making capability and rationality were the last areas of the brain to fully mature, and it seems that Sirius has most of his trouble in these areas.) We find out that Sirius ran away from home and had to become independent at a young age, due to his miserable family. This certainly would also have some effect on his emotional maturity. If the rest of his family is anything like his mother, I'd say it's remarkable that he turned out as well as he did :) I'd argue that Sirius is suffering from depression in OOTP. As anyone who's had to deal with depression and loneliness knows, it can make you say some rather petty and foolish things. Not only do we have the matter of the dementors (who, I believe JKR said at one point, are symbols of depression) but there is Sirius' behavior as well. Certainly several of his (admittedly manipulative) comments to Harry about James seem to me to be indicative of this; also, there's his frustration at literally not being able to leave the house, etc. And I don't buy the argument that Azkaban shouldn't have affected his emotional development. As (I think!) Hermione says, he's just been very lonely for a long time. He is becoming used to human relationships again, which I think is very hard. There's a discussion going on in this group about Hermione and her parents that touches on the idea that the wizarding world can sometimes be a little indifferent toward characters' emotional health. As Jocelyn says, for years people dismissed PTSD in soldiers until it became fully recognized. At any rate, twelve years in a soul-sucking prison would probably have some effect on your personality, don't you think? This all gets at a larger question that's been bothering me for a little while. If I am being way off-topic here, or surmising too much, please let me know. I really don't wish to sound insulting- I have the greatest respect for the posters on this list- and bear in mind that I'm not nearly as serious about this as I sound here :) It seems to me (though I may well be wrong) that HP fans are often quite absolutist about the characters in the books. There's a tendency to see characters as overwhelmingly evil or good, begetting character assassination and complex theories (frequently involving charms and spells to affect personality) to justify a "good" character's morally ambiguous choices. My question is, why do we need characters to be overwhelmingly one thing or another, to a degree that would be unrealistic in real life? JKR writes the occasional flatly "evil" character, it's true (I'm thinking of Voldemort and the Malfoys here, though if we get some further background on Tom Riddle in the next book, that would make a difference) but I think that her "good" characters-- and yes, I include Sirius in that-- are remarkably complex and well- developed, full of moral uncertainty, subtle and not-so-subtle flaws, and human weaknesses. I prefer them this way; in fact, I didn't particularly really like or relate to Harry until the fifth book, when he finally began to demonstrate some ordinary human failings. This is one of my favorite things about the books, something that's quite rare in fantasy and (for lack of a better word) children's literature. I don't mean simply moral flaws, either; I for one would be very happy to find Neville come into his own without memory charms having anything to do with it. It's arguably more heroic to perform great acts when you're *not* naturally gifted. I think that Sirius is being judged a bit too harshly. Would you consider James always to be a sadistic bully? Or Snape to be an arrogant racist? Then why place so much importance on Sirius' behavior in the Pensieve scene? I don't think he comes out too much worse in that memory than anyone else (except Lily, of course.) Katie who spent some time at an Ivy League college and knows what soul- sucking places can do to your mental health From smartone56441070 at aol.com Sat Jul 3 07:15:40 2004 From: smartone56441070 at aol.com (smartone564) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 07:15:40 -0000 Subject: Chapter 21, The Eye of the Snake - Is D.E.Nott Theo's Father? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104169 Steve wrote: > Do we really know that the Death Eater Nott is Theodore Nott's father? > I've always assumed it myself, and I know where I got the idea, I'm > just not sure if I trust it. I remember Harry seeing Draco, Grabbe, > and Goyle along with T.Nott giving him malevolent looks in the > library, and Harry knew it was because, "He had named all of their > fathers as Death Eaters." Well, if you don't think that them having the same last name is signifigant, then how can you accept any of the other, wilder guesses? (Ron being Dumbledore comes to mind, but please don't comment about that in this thread). If DE Nott isn't necessarily related to Theo Nott, then what do you think about Mark Evans being related to Harry/Lily/Dursleys? As of now, with the library scene, there is more evidence that DE Nott is Theo Nott's father than there is about any relation between the Evans we know of. And in a related issue.... is there any mention in any of the books that two wizards/witches/ANYbody have the same last name, that aren't related? The only other instance I can think of is the Warbeck's, but there has been almost nothing about them anyhow. Smart From smartone56441070 at aol.com Sat Jul 3 07:32:59 2004 From: smartone56441070 at aol.com (smartone564) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 07:32:59 -0000 Subject: 24 hours again In-Reply-To: <000401c46062$a9982b00$184a6d51@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104170 Ffred wrote: > Why, first of all, did Dumbledore do Sybil's job interview in the > Hog's Head? I thought DD only reluctantly agreed to do the interview there. Key word: agreed, as in that it was Sybill's choice (due to the cheap drinks if i recall correctly?). Also, DD said he had no reason to suspect that anything important would be said during a teaching interview, so that it didn't really matter. > I _think_ I recall that Dumbledore describes [unknown] as reporting straight > back to his (so we at least know the gender) master so there's no delay > there. Is there any proof that LV has any female supporters? He sure hasn't reacted well to the ones we have seen him with (Ginny mainly). > But the delay in Voldemort's making his mind up is indeed strange (he > doesn't seem the sort to worry about a few broken eggs, why not kill both > infants if you're not sure? Maybe the Potters/Longbottoms hadn't 'thrice defied' LV yet, but that is just a stretch. > Lots of material for conspiracies there, including the outside chance that > Dumbledore had some foreknowledge that Sybil was the real thing, As we know (or atleast are led to believe), DD doesn't like prophecy/divination. Take Firenzene's (speling mistake, I'm sure) lack of self-confidence in something his own race is known for, and his subject. > and used a > charm to _induce_ her to summon up the awen in the pub in the knowledge that > the first part _would_ get reported back and induce Voldemort to make the > fatal move? Or is that a step just too far? Yes, that is a little far-fetched. Smart, who again has answered something without (too many) questions. From smartone56441070 at aol.com Sat Jul 3 07:42:32 2004 From: smartone56441070 at aol.com (smartone564) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 07:42:32 -0000 Subject: The Floo Network and the Gryfindor Common Room In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104171 > Asian_lovr2: > As far as Molly calling or students calling home, I would counter by > asking how often you called home when you were in college, or boarding > school if you went to boarding school? Not very often I think, > probably no more than was mandatory. Also, think about the number of students in each house. How would it be reasonable to talk to your son/daughter if there are something like (using Harry's male year as a standard, 5* 2 genders * 7 years= ) 70 students for each house, and 280 in the school. Which also asks the question, what if two (or more) people try to Floo talk to the same fireplace? Do they both show up? > What was > Umbridge planning to do if she did manage to get hold of Sirius's > head? I really don't think she could have pulled him through and into > the Hogwarts castle. That seems to go directly against Hogwarts > protections. Her own office was unprocteced, as you mention later. > So, I'm back to her holding him until he could be traced, or she could > summon help to go make the necessary changes to the castle protections > and Floo Network so Sirius could be captured. What if she had decided to hold on to try and follow him through to his own location? This would mean his attempts to flee her would help her get through. Though again, this begs the question, can you Floo into a secret-keeper house/place? If not, can you atleast appear in the fire and talk? But I doubt JKR thought too much in this direction. Smart From greatraven at hotmail.com Sat Jul 3 11:17:44 2004 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 11:17:44 -0000 Subject: Harry will die In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104172 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "chbagirl05" wrote: > So personally, I think Harry will die at the end of all this. I know > that sounds a bit harsh, but I truly believe Harry would be happier if > he did. > > Dumbldore told us in Chamber Of Secrets that Harry had a bond with > Lord Voldemort between wands and inside due to some of Voldemorts > powers being transfored when the curse failed. SO I personaly think if > Harry kills Voldemort, he himself will also die beacause of the bond. > Harry resents it when others stare at his scar, and in the forth book it > seemed more then ever that he just wanted to be a normal kid. Now that > his Godfather has left him, he dosen't have anyone he feels he can > relate too. Not to mention his parents being gone. That's all Harry > has ever really wanted, to be with his family and not gawked at > because of some scar on his head. And hasn't Harry emotionally lived a > longer life then most of the other wizards...? Mind you I could > definitely be wrong.... > > > "mietoesarepink" Sue: Or perhaps it will just end the way some other fantasy series have ended, with Harry becoming a normal (wizard) boy? The Dark Is Rising series, for example, had King Arthur's son, having madethe decision to live in the mortal world, lose all his memory of who he was. The Dark Materials trilogy ended with a character who had had a special ability throughout the novels (I'm not saying who, in case someone is reading it) losing it once it was no longer needed to perform certain tasks, and having to learn it again from scratch. Harry has been told that some of his abilities, e.g. Parseltongue, come from his link with LV. Who knows, perhaps his genius in DADA is also to some extent a result of this link. He needs it now. Once LV has been defeated - and I can't believe he won't be - he may lose all the abilities he got as the result of the link with the Dark Lord and maybe play Quidditch for England and be hapopy? :-) From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat Jul 3 11:30:25 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 11:30:25 -0000 Subject: 24 hours again In-Reply-To: <000401c46062$a9982b00$184a6d51@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104173 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "manawydan" wrote: > > Who, indeed, was the eavesdropper? Some people I know have suggested > Mundungus Fletcher (but if he had been, why would a member or at least > associate of the Order have spilled the beans to Voldemort? And why would > Dumbledore have named him among the first people to contact when Voldemort > arose again?) Others have suggested Peter (but at the time he was a trusted > member of the Order, who wouldn't have been thrown out. And if he had > overheard it, as soon as Dumbledore found out that Voldemort knew what had > been overheard, Peter's cover would have been blown). Snape is a > possibility, but only if (as I've suggested), he wasn't working for > Dumbledore at the time. If he was a secret spy for the Order and reported > the prophecy to Voldemort, he's never going to be trusted again. So once > again we're left with an unknown person. > > I _think_ I recall that Dumbledore describes [unknown] as reporting straight > back to his (so we at least know the gender) master so there's no delay > there. But the delay in Voldemort's making his mind up is indeed strange (he > doesn't seem the sort to worry about a few broken eggs, why not kill both > infants if you're not sure? > Once again, the timing is everything and it's being denied us. If DD knows the identity of the eavesdropper, knows that he reported straight back to Voldy, why hasn't he done something about it? When did he find out that whosis reported straight back? Right away? later, but before the attack on Godric's Hollow? or in the years since? A thought occurs - if it was Peter, would he eavesdrop as Pettigrew at the door or as Scabbers in the rafters? If he was caught as Scabbers and thrown out, it adds a whole new dimension to the Weasley's pet rat being allowed at Hogwarts in contravention of the rule regarding pets. Kneasy From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat Jul 3 11:48:04 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 11:48:04 -0000 Subject: Animagi revisited was: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104174 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mandy" wrote: > So why are there not more of them? We know of many brilliant wizards > in the canon, yet only seven animagi currently alive? It seems odd. > > Perhaps it has less to do with talent, and more to do with how > animagi are perceived by the WW. Perhaps they are looked down upon > and prejudiced against in some way. Considered untrust worthy. > And why is it not taught at Hogwarts? If only at NEWT level? > > Perhaps the WW are extremely suspicious of animagi wizards, to the > point of discriminating against them. It's the only reason I can > think of why everyone wouldn't at least want to attempt to become one. > > There seems to be something very suspicious about the whole Animagus > ability. Well, it's a bit limiting. You don't get to choose your animal form. It'd be a bit of a frost if you could only turn into a skunk or a hippopotamus. Great fun for teenagers on a spree but not very useful in other situations. Spying? In the Shrieking Shack Lupin and Sirius use a spell to force Pettigrew back into human form, so any animal wandering around Voldy's squat would no doubt get the treatment. No chance of James disguising himself as a hat-rack, for instance. Interestingly JKR doesn't seem to like unregistered Animagi much. Just look at what happens to them - James dead, Sirius dead, Rita humbled, Peter now an amputee Igor to Voldy. Not friendly at all. Do you think she's trying to tell us something? Kneasy From aandj at labyrinth.net.au Sat Jul 3 11:27:20 2004 From: aandj at labyrinth.net.au (Jocelyn Grunow) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 22:27:20 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: 24 hours again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104175 on 3/7/2004 10:30 PM, arrowsmithbt at arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com wrote: > A thought occurs - if it was Peter, would he eavesdrop as Pettigrew at > the door or as Scabbers in the rafters? If he was caught as Scabbers and > thrown out, it adds a whole new dimension to the Weasley's pet rat being > allowed at Hogwarts in contravention of the rule regarding pets. What rule? I thought a lot of them had pets - the owls, Neville's toad, Crookshanks? What have I missed? Jocelyn From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat Jul 3 13:15:47 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 13:15:47 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 21, The Eye of the Snake In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104176 Arya wrote: > > > 5. Why might Ron have forgotten to tell Harry that he was invited to > > The Burrow for Christmas? Why does Hermione roll her eyes? snip --------- >> I just remember way back in PS, when Ron pull out his corned beef sandwhich and > grimaces at it. He says he's always hated corned beef but his mum always forgets. > How hard is a it for a mother to know this? Mum mum had four kids and never > miuxed up what he each disliked. Wow. I mean, Ron muct really not rate at all for > this to be forgotton. So, look at Harry, who I can bet if he expressed a like of dislike, > Molly would make no mistake in forgetting--I think there may be a little harboured > ill-will there. Not major. Not overt. Not even consciou. But just, you know, one little > peice of straw on the proverbial camel's back. snip Potioncat: I don't agree, (kindly of course) It sounds like your mother had a good memory and was organised. If that sort of mother was forgetting one child's sandwich preferences, then, yes, maybe there would be more to it. But I think we've seen enough cases to know that in some areas Molly is a bit overwhelmed and forgetful. I think it was just that. Think of it, most of the year she has one child at home (depending on the year) then for the summer she has 5 (although the twins could count as a dozen by themselves) Getting 5 five kids outfitted and to the train on time would certainly tax my sieve-like brain. But there could be something to the fact that Ron has mixed feelings about having an extra person around. I'd never thought about that before. Potioncat From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat Jul 3 13:24:47 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 13:24:47 -0000 Subject: Nott and other DE parents Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Ch. 21 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104177 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "smartone564" wrote: > Ok, if Nott's mother is dead, and his father is still alive, is it safe > to assume he is living with his dad? I should sure hope so. In > this case, what happens if/when DE parents are caught? (Was > Mr. Nott captured at the end of OotP? I know Lucius was). Potioncat: That is one the questions we'll have to wait on. Will someone "take on" Nott (Professor Snape? Mrs. Figg? Or, Merlin forbid, Mrs. Malfoy?) Or will he go to an orphanage? Or will that be a part of the story casual readers will never know about that will drive the rest of us crazy? I'm wondering if it will play into the plot of the next book. Particularly if Nott ends up with someone on DD's side. We certainly are unlikely to see his summer unless he runs into Harry. I don't think the DE's who raided the DoM will walk free. They may escape, but not to real freedom. So I wouldn't expect any of the children to be with them. Potioncat From kcawte at ntlworld.com Sat Jul 3 14:00:55 2004 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 15:00:55 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Did Lily have any girl friends? References: Message-ID: <001e01c46106$28dac320$bcde6251@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 104178 > > imamommy > > Well, how about Andromeda then? > Wouldn't Andromeda have been a bit too old to be in Lily's circle of friends? Tonks' age suggests Andromeda was at least five or six years older i would say - does anyone know exactly how old Tonks is meant to be? K From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat Jul 3 14:08:20 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 14:08:20 -0000 Subject: 24 hours again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104179 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Jocelyn Grunow wrote: > on 3/7/2004 10:30 PM, arrowsmithbt at arrowsmithbt at b... wrote: > > > A thought occurs - if it was Peter, would he eavesdrop as Pettigrew at > > the door or as Scabbers in the rafters? If he was caught as Scabbers and > > thrown out, it adds a whole new dimension to the Weasley's pet rat being > > allowed at Hogwarts in contravention of the rule regarding pets. > > > What rule? I thought a lot of them had pets - the owls, Neville's toad, > Crookshanks? What have I missed? > > Jocelyn "Students may also bring an owl OR a cat OR a toad." PS/SS chap 5. No mention of rats. Kneasy From sherriola at earthlink.net Sat Jul 3 14:15:59 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 08:15:59 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000401c46108$44343000$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 104180 > Let's see, he talks about the full moon fondly to his werewolf > friend, who suffers greatly because of what he is. That's kind. > Then he refuses to help his friend study because he knows everything > already. Never mind that his friend might need some help. Not a > concern of Sirius', who acts as though the world revolves around > him. > And why does he send Snape to the shreiking shack knowing harm will > befall Lupin as well. Perhaps it is another example of Sirius acting > without thinking. Or, perhaps he was trying to kill two birds with > one stone..punish both Snape and Lupin. > I'm convinced > there is more to the Snape/Lupin dynamic than meets the eye. Both > seem to have been bookish when in school. James and Sirius don't. > Is it possible that Lupin and Snape ran across each other in the > library - like Hermione and Krum? Could a tentative friendship have > started - something that Sirius felt a need to end, and if Snape ends > up dead more's the better? And if Lupin could tentatively befriend > someone like Snape, couldn't you see Sirius taking that as evidence > that Lupin was the one who was betraying the order later? > > My only problem is that at the end of GoF Dumbledore says he trusts > both Snape and Sirius. So despite all my misgivings, I can concede that = Sherry now I am a Sirius defender, but I don't really like debate and argument, so I hate having to chime in, ... but I wanted to make a few points about what you said. First of all, it's proven over and over, that boys do mature slower than girls. All of my brothers were irritating gits, when they were teenagers. What made them grow up? Time, responsibility, things like that. They got out of high school, got jobs, got married, had kids. All those things, over time helped them to mature into the wonderful men they are today. Not only do I love my brothers, but I genuinely like them and would choose them as friends if we weren't siblings. So, I think it's quite possible for Sirius not to have been very mature at 16 or younger. He never got to do the normal things kids do after school, go to college--or whatever the wizard equivalent would be--get a job, earn money, pay bills, get married. Nobody can convince me that spending 12 years with beings like the dementors would help a person mature! About his teasing Lupin, well, I am disabled. I am blind. My best friends can make teasing cracks to me, and it is funny. Comments like, what do you mean, where is such and such, can't you see? Are you blind or something? We laugh about it. If a stranger were to talk to me like that, or a coworker, I would consider it offensive and inappropriate. Just like I tease my best friend, who can yell fit to make the roof fly off the house at her kids, that she is a meek and gentle person. It's among friends and it isn't meant as a slap. I am quite sure that Lupin never minded Sirius teasing him. In fact, his attitude in OOTP is warm and fond. The image in my mind is of them having feelings of almost being brothers. As far as the possibility of a Snape/Lupin tentative friendship goes, no, I don't buy it at all. Snape was venomous toward Lupin in the shrieking shack scene In POA. In fact, he seemed more furious and more out to get Lupin than Sirius. He tied up Lupin, not Sirius. I don't believe it was because of the fear of the full moon. I doubt that ropes tied to restrain a human could hold a werewolf. Snape also warned Dumbledore against Lupin in POA. So I don't believe there was any old friendship there. None of that is to say that Sirius wasn't rash and reckless. He was all of that. But maybe, he would have become a better person, if he had time and opportunity to live a normal sort of life. Sherry G From sherriola at earthlink.net Sat Jul 3 14:32:36 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 08:32:36 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry will die In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000801c4610a$96cc86d0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 104181 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "chbagirl05" wrote: > So personally, I think Harry will die at the end of all this. I know > that sounds a bit harsh, but I truly believe Harry would be happier if > he did. Sherry now I would be highly disappointed, if Harry dies. But if he dies and it's presented as making him happy, I would be disgusted. He will only be 17 at the end of the books, and lots of kids read these books. It would be truly horrible, and absolutely outrageous to tell kids that one of their heroes found it happier to be dead. There is already far too much teenage suicide. It's a tragedy in the real world, and I'd hate to see anything encourage that. Sherry G From Zarleycat at aol.com Sat Jul 3 14:42:07 2004 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 14:42:07 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited/character discussions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104182 Kneasy: > But I do find it interesting that after cobbling together a long, not very > complimentary screed on the life and times of Sirius he seems to have > so few committed defenders. Has a silent reassessment taken place > among the posters? Marianne: Speaking only for myself, no. I'm still passionately fond of Sirius, warts and all. But, I've been reading your posts since you joined the list and I think I've gotten the message of how you feel about Sirius. I doubt anything I can say will change your opinion of him, and I'm not sure I could even get you to scratch your head and say, "Hmmm, maybe she's come up with a microscopic point in his favor." ;-) Marianne From griffin782002 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 3 12:02:44 2004 From: griffin782002 at yahoo.com (sp. sot.) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 05:02:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius Black poll In-Reply-To: <20040702214518.40811.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040703120244.26764.qmail@web90008.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104183 madeyemoody72 escreveu: > If I were JKR I would have him alive and trapped > behind the veil, (since he was not actually killed) > and in full communication with Harry after Harry > sends the mirror through the veil as an act of > final respect to Sirius. Later a possible rescue > would develope, but it would come to nothing and > Harry and Sirius would have to come to grips with > being apart. Rebeka: Oh my, how cruel! :) I truly hope Sirius would come back, but I'd rather have him dead if he's not coming back at full. I mean, I don't want him to come back as a shadow, or a ghost or through a mirror. Either I get Black back alive and in flesh and bones or I'd rather have him ultimately dead. griffin782002 I have my own thoughts about the veil. J.K.R. has used many elements from ancient mythologies for her books. For example, centaurs were wise and play an important part in Greek myths. One of them acted as a teacher for many mythical heroes. Also the ancient Greeks believed that a three-headed dog, known as Cerberus, guarded the entrance to the Underworld, which they called Hades. There are myths which tell the story of a hero that for some reason has to 'visit' the Underworld. Hercules has to go there in order to 'borrow' Cerberus for one of his twelve tasks. Orpheus, a mythicmeal micisian went to take back his dead wife. I wonder if the veil is a similar kind of entrance. They had necromancies, I have visited such a place years ago. I think the world of the dead is a mystery and perhaps that was the reason why most of the people around it were affraid of it. I some other thoughts which might be a completely wrong. Sirius has some similarities with a character from LotR, Gandalf. First Sirius is locked in place high in a tower without escape. Gandalf is trapped in the tower of Isengard, also without escape. Sirius escaped with the help of aHippogriff and a few others. Gandalf escaped with the help of an eagle. They both seem to die when danger seemed to be over. Gandalf fell down the Abyss when Balrock had already fallen in. Sirius fell throught the veil when everyone else had stopped fighting. I wonder if the similarities stop in this point. Well, I will wait. "griffin782002" From lmenard at shentel.net Sat Jul 3 13:34:53 2004 From: lmenard at shentel.net (Laura Menard) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 09:34:53 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: 24 hours again References: Message-ID: <000901c46102$87c52690$0400a8c0@TheMaster> No: HPFGUIDX 104184 >>>What rule? I thought a lot of them had pets - the owls, Neville's toad, >>>Crookshanks? What have I missed? >>>Jocelyn Under 'other equipment' in Harry's first letter from Hogwarts says (page 67 SS, Scholastic)- Students may also bring an owl OR a cat OR a toad laura [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lynns at wowway.com Sat Jul 3 12:17:33 2004 From: lynns at wowway.com (magicmom2001) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 12:17:33 -0000 Subject: Nott and other DE parents Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Ch. 21 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104185 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "smartone564" wrote: > Ok, if Nott's mother is dead, and his father is still alive, is it safe > to assume he is living with his dad? I should sure hope so. In > this case, what happens if/when DE parents are caught? (Was > Mr. Nott captured at the end of OotP? I know Lucius was). So the > caputered DE's go to Azkaban, the dementors leave, and ALL the > prisoners are let out. Do the DE's kids still get to live with them, > and can Lucius still go around in public, now that he has been > proven to be a DE? > > Smart, who is still hopelessly lost. I don't think it is going to matter whether Lucius was named (or any of the other DE). We know the battle is coming. Perhaps it was convienent that OoP ended with these guys all in jail. It will be helpful as the next book starts, to have some of the enemies tied up for a while. From Snarryfan at aol.com Sat Jul 3 13:46:54 2004 From: Snarryfan at aol.com (evita2fr) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 13:46:54 -0000 Subject: 24 hours again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104186 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Jocelyn Grunow wrote: > on 3/7/2004 10:30 PM, arrowsmithbt at arrowsmithbt at b... wrote: > > > A thought occurs - if it was Peter, would he eavesdrop as Pettigrew at > > the door or as Scabbers in the rafters? If he was caught as Scabbers and > > thrown out, it adds a whole new dimension to the Weasley's pet rat being > > allowed at Hogwarts in contravention of the rule regarding pets. > > > What rule? I thought a lot of them had pets - the owls, Neville's toad, > Crookshanks? What have I missed? In the list with the Hogwart's letter: "Students may bring an owl OR a cat OR a toad." Safe if it means that only one pet is allowed (Hagrid would try to bring many more), a rat is not allowed. Christelle From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Sat Jul 3 14:39:42 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 3 Jul 2004 14:39:42 -0000 Subject: Revisiting The Boy when He Lived Message-ID: <20040703143942.29232.qmail@webmail30.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104187 Hi, I was thinking of the last hours of Lily Potter (and maybe James), and saw some discepancies. 1. We are all wondering that James might not be there at the time of the Attack (hence the shocked Lupin when he hears that Harry heard his father's voice.). But, if James is not there when LV came to kill Harry, whose voice did Harry hear telling Lily to take Harry away? Who was this man? If he was not James, where did he go when he was supposedly holding LV at bay? Was it Wormtail by chance, he might have mislead Lily? Or the memory induced by Dementors somehow wrong? 2. Also if James is not there, how come he came after Lily during Priory? Again where did the man in the scene vanish (because even if in the movie James is not seen, Harry hears some voice during Dementor training. I don't remember if the man is there in movie scene or not)? If he was killed who killed him, because LV can't have killed him. If he was Wormtail, then it all fits, as there is no reason to kill him. But if it was somebosy else, and somebody other than LV killed him, why didn't the other person try and finish LV's work of killing little Harry? Or was he so frightened at seeing the spell backfire that he ran away? So there seems to be some discrepancy between the movie scene, harry's memory and the Priory order. Which one is the most canon? (i mean which one should we take as the most perfect as all are canon :)) 3. Who told Potters so that they knew "LV was after them long before" (PoA- Prof McGonall)? Was that Snape, that must account for his hatred for Harry, the son of his worst enemy, but he had to save him as he was "the one with powers to vanquish the Dark Lord". (And the hatred increased when he saved Harry in PS/SS). Why couldn't he intimate others in the Order at the time of attack? Or were they late? Because whatever hatred SS felt about JP, i don't see him delaying this most importatnt bit of information just for "petty schoolboy revenge" (Of course, he was ready to give Sirius to dementors, but that was not war). And Hagrid tells us that he was the first person on the scene, how did he know? DD can't send him if he knew that attack was imminent because he can't face LV for more than 1 minute, so how DD was sure that LV was dead (or at least gone) before he sent Hagrid? He met Sirius there, Sirius came right after he checked on PP and he arrived after Hagrid, how was he late? (Mind, I am not accusing Sirius, because in my mind, Sitius is a good boy, might be more of a boy then good, but still, he does not come as the one to give his best friend to LV). This might have been discussed earlier, but I think we need full canonical version of the entire scene. Amey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Meliss9900 at aol.com Sat Jul 3 16:20:02 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 12:20:02 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Royalty? Message-ID: <8c.ed5ef7e.2e1836b2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104188 In a message dated 07/02/2004 5:58:17 PM Central Daylight Time, drednort at alphalink.com.au writes: > We really don't know. > > Personally I've always taken the view that Wizarding Britain > probably does acknowledge the Queen, but there's no real evidence > for or against that that I can see. > > I was discussing this with a friend last night. It seems odd that the WW is based on Muggle Britain in every BUT royalty. Presuming that JKR means the HPB is a person and not anyone we've met in the books so far (including the founders) Its possible that the HBP is supposed to be royal on their Muggle side not the wizard side. I think that the closest canon have for the WW acknowledging the Queen is Fudge stating that he notified his Muggle counterpart of Sirius' escape in POA. If the Muggle PM knows about the WW then there's a good possiblilty that the Queen knows as well. (and wouldn't Sir Nick have been knighted the Sovereign back in his day??) Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eternal_riddle at yahoo.com Sat Jul 3 15:56:22 2004 From: eternal_riddle at yahoo.com (Anastasia) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 15:56:22 -0000 Subject: Harry will die In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104189 "chbagirl05" wrote: > So personally, I think Harry will die at the end of all this. I > know that sounds a bit harsh, but I truly believe Harry would be > happier if he did. > > Dumbldore told us in Chamber Of Secrets that Harry had a bond with > Lord Voldemort between wands and inside due to some of Voldemorts > powers being transfored when the curse failed. SO I personaly think if > Harry kills Voldemort, he himself will also die beacause of the bond. > Now that > his Godfather has left him, he dosen't have anyone he feels he can > relate too. Not to mention his parents being gone. Now eternal_riddle: I do not think that Harry does not have anyone he can relate to. He has friends who are as loyal to him as one can be. Some people, like Lupin, would even die for him. Isn't that enough? Harry will soon be old enough to live on his own and (most important) to have a family himself. Imagine Harry falls in love - then dying would be the last thing he wanted to do. The bond LV and Harry have might make it hard for one to kill the other, but surely not impossible. LV has Harry's blood but Harry doesn't have LV's - that sounds to me as if their bond has lost its symmetry. Anyways, the last fact will become very important when it comes to who will die at the end, I feel. eternal_riddle From griffin782002 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 3 16:12:17 2004 From: griffin782002 at yahoo.com (sp. sot.) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 09:12:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry will die In-Reply-To: <000801c4610a$96cc86d0$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: <20040703161217.27304.qmail@web90009.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104190 "chbagirl05" wrote: > So personally, I think Harry will die at the end of all this. I know > that sounds a bit harsh, but I truly believe Harry would be happier if > he did. Sherry wrote: >I would be highly disappointed, if Harry dies. But if he dies and it's presented as making him happy, I would be disgusted. He will only be 17 at the end of the books, and lots of kids read these books. It would be truly horrible, and absolutely outrageous to tell kids that one of their heroes found it happier to be dead. There is already far too much teenage suicide. It's a tragedy in the real world, and I'd hate to see anything encourage >that. > Griffin782002: I believe that Harry might not die. It has been mentioned too many times in the books and with all these 'prophecies by Prof. Trelawney it has become too obvious. And in these books most of the time what is obvious doesn't happen. My bother says it is a possibility, but a horrible one. Also, in the 19th century Arthur Conand Doyle, killed off Sherlock Holmes. Then, there was a public outrage and he was forced to bring him back. Imagine what will happen if J.K.R. decides to kill off Harry. "Griffin782002" From lkadlec at princeton.edu Sat Jul 3 17:10:48 2004 From: lkadlec at princeton.edu (curly_of_oster) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 17:10:48 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited/character discussions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104191 I'm glad Marianne added "character discussions" to this subject header, because the response I was writing in my head has at least as much to do with why and how we discuss characters as it does with Sirius in particular. Kneasy writes: But I do find it interesting that after cobbling together a long, not very complimentary screed on the life and times of Sirius he seems to have so few committed defenders. Has a silent reassessment taken place among the posters? Marianne responds: Speaking only for myself, no. I'm still passionately fond of Sirius, warts and all. But, I've been reading your posts since you joined the list and I think I've gotten the message of how you feel about Sirius. I doubt anything I can say will change your opinion of him, and I'm not sure I could even get you to scratch your head and say, "Hmmm, maybe she's come up with a microscopic point in his favor." ;-) Now me (Lisa): Marianne has touched on one of the two aspects of my response to Kneasy's question. I've 'only' been on this list for about a year, but I think that's long enough to get a sense of how things work, and to get an idea of where a lot of the more vocal posters stand. It's also long enough to confirm that character discussions here aren't substantially different than on other lists I've been on in other fandoms (okay, one other fandom, but I have friends who confirm this is true pretty widely). We have a certain, limited amount of information about any of the characters. This information is particularly limited in the case of the adults, whom we see only small pieces of. Different people will 'read' this information in different ways. Different people will come to different conclusions about the characters, depending in part on their personal inclinations, which pieces of evidence and character traits they choose to place emphasis on, etc. I happen to like Sirius (rather a lot), but I can also recognize that he has faults/bad points, and I can see how other people could feel differently than I do. Yes, I like discussion/argument for its own sake. But after a while having the *same* discussion or argument over and over gets tiring/frustrating/uninteresting (at least to me). I don't expect to be able to completely change anyone's mind (nor do I feel the need to). However, having a 'discussion' in which the 'other side' seems to have not even the slightest interest in giving my point of view any sort of genuine consideration...well, I just don't have the time/energy/motivation for that. My second, related, point has to do with how we have these discussions, and how people view canon and what counts as evidence. I shall use a couple of recent Sirius-related topics as examples. After Kneasy asserted that Sirius wasn't really very intelligent, Nora pointed out that McGonagall states in PoA that James and Sirius were at the top of their class. I just looked it up, by the way, and she says that they were "exceptionally bright." To which Kneasy replied that he "naturally discounts this," followed by complete speculation about McGonagall which is apparently meant to justify this dismissal of the provided evidence. In an earlier part of the recent Sirius discussion, I saw more than one post saying, in effect, "it's obvious that Sirius wasn't punished after the Prank." Sorry, don't have the exact quotes, but I seem to recall some reference to an earlier discussion of the issue in which the list had supposedly agreed upon/been convinced of this??? Personally, I haven't seen any real evidence one way or the other in the books. Assuming Snape genuinely believes it was attempted murder, it seems unlikely that anything short of expulsion (or perhaps even anything short of Azkaban) would have satisfied him. He appears to hold a grudge against Harry because of his father, so is it surprising he holds a grudge against Sirius himself? And the fact that we haven't been told that Sirius was punished is, quite frankly, a non-argument. We haven't been told *lots* of things--that doesn't mean they didn't happen. It's not as if we got some scene in which the topic actually came up and that one aspect of it was avoided. Note that I'm not arguing that he *was* punished. We simply don't know (yet?). So here's the thing. On the one hand it's apparently considered reasonable to ignore statements made by characters whom we know to be privy to the information in question (and who don't have a clear motive to either lie or embellish--why make a murderer look *better*?). On the other hand, it's also okay to take a supposition for which we have no real evidence and treat it as if it were an accepted fact (and therefore use it as "evidence" in an argument/character analysis/whatever). At this point, having been essentially asked why I'm not 'defending' a character I like, I find myself sort of throwing up my hands and asking, "What's the point?" Lisa From david_p at istop.com Sat Jul 3 18:14:00 2004 From: david_p at istop.com (david_p2002ca) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 18:14:00 -0000 Subject: Dean is Gary? In-Reply-To: <014501c460af$a093f190$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104192 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Alina" wrote: > All the information is on her website at http://www.jkrowling.co.uk. No, > Dean's real isn't Gary...He does however have a more complicated background than > the story discloses, because Rowling said she didn't find an opportunity to > insert it into the books. He is a half-blood rather than a muggle- born, and > Rowling lists this information as taken out of her initial draft of book 2. Hmm... so a Dean's backstory was taken out of CoS, where it was to be revealed that he's a half-blood. Sound like a good Half-Blood Prince candidate to anyone? David From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sat Jul 3 18:59:28 2004 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 19:59:28 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] 24 hours again References: <1088860311.25500.347.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002301c4612f$e9a0c040$184a6d51@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 104193 Kneasy wrote: >Once again, the timing is everything and it's being denied us. > >If DD knows the identity of the eavesdropper, knows that he reported >straight back to Voldy, why hasn't he done something about it? >When did he find out that whosis reported straight back? Right away? >later, but before the attack on Godric's Hollow? or in the years since? All we know is that "one of" Dumbledore's spies in the DEs warned him that Voldemort was after the Potters (sorry, it's [unknown] again - gets everywhere, [unknown]...). We don't even know if it's the same [unknown] that tipped him off about the attack on Godric's Hollow. >A thought occurs - if it was Peter, would he eavesdrop as Pettigrew at >the door or as Scabbers in the rafters? If he was caught as Scabbers and >thrown out, it adds a whole new dimension to the Weasley's pet rat being >allowed at Hogwarts in contravention of the rule regarding pets. Would anyone have been too worried about a stray rat in the Hog's Head!? And indeed, if it was Peter, why would [unknown] who threw the eavesdropper out have been troubled about there being a trusted friend of Dumbledore outside in the corridor? But here's just another small thought, following on from the suggestion last time of there being a spell which induces a Seer to prophesy - maybe it was the eavesdropper who did the spell... Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 3 19:04:37 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 19:04:37 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: <000401c46108$44343000$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104194 > > Sherry wrote: big snip. > > None of that is to say that Sirius wasn't rash and reckless. He was all of > that. But maybe, he would have become a better person, if he had time and > opportunity to live a normal sort of life. > Alla: Yes, absolutely. To me, Sirius twelve years in Azkaban is an excuse for him still mentally being in his early twenties in many aspects. He never got a chance to mature completely From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 3 19:22:22 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 19:22:22 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited. Character discussions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104195 Nora: > > You know, I'm completely and utterly away from my books right now, so > > I could be COMPLETELY remembering wrong, but isn't there a comment > > somewhere in PoA, I think, about Sirius and James being at the top of > > their class? My lack-of-sleep-addled mind wants to say it's > > McGonagall. > Kneasy: > Yes, she does. Naturally I discount this (would you expect anything else?) Alla: Actually, Kneasy I do expect something else from you. Of course, it does not mean that you have to do it. It is just my take on the debate McGonagall's statement is a canon support to the argument of Sirius being smart. I, quite frankly expect you to acknowledge it, because I don't remember anything in canon, supporting the argument that McGonagall would call a student smart, if he /she was not. For example, as you know , I despise Snape's teaching methods with passion. :o) But, when confronted with the canon support that Snape's class is academically advanced (statement from Umbridge), I acknowledge that this is a good evidence in support of the argument that academically Snape is a good teacher. Does not mean that I am buying this argument completely (still waiting for the resuits of the OWLS), but it is a good support to it. When the other side's arguments are just dismissed with a shrug, I feel exactly like Lisa does. What is the point then? You will always defend Snape, I will always defend Harry and Sirius and we will not change each other's minds of course, but it is kind of gracious, I THINK to acknowledge if either side comes with the good argument in support of their position. Alla From n2fgc at arrl.net Sat Jul 3 19:28:45 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 15:28:45 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Animagi revisited was: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104196 [Kneasy wrote]: | Spying? In the Shrieking Shack Lupin and Sirius use a spell to force | Pettigrew back into human form, so any animal wandering around | Voldy's squat would no doubt get the treatment. No chance of | James disguising himself as a hat-rack, for instance. [Lee]: Yes, and Sirius and Lupin *knew* that Peter was an animagus, which was why they could re-transform him. If someone, like Rita, for example, is crawling around and no one knows she's an animagus, she wouldn't have to worry about her human identity being discovered...except if she ran into someone with good deductive powers like Hermione. :-) [Kneasy]: | Interestingly JKR doesn't seem to like unregistered Animagi much. | Just look at what happens to them - James dead, Sirius dead, Rita | humbled, Peter now an amputee Igor to Voldy. Not friendly at all. | Do you think she's trying to tell us something? [Lee]: But of course! :-) Seriously, in RL, people with certain Marshall Arts skills are registered with the government because they can be used as weapons...at least, this is what I understood from a gentleman I knew about 20 years ago who was an Eighth Degree Black Belt. So, let's take this into the WW; The MOM wants to have the animagi registered so they can track down those who might go bad, perhaps use those who have spy-worthy or other talents, etc. And, perhaps it's just one of those bureaucratic things to give someone a job...register and keep tabs on all the animagi in the WW. However, how many people are driving without licenses? How many own guns without licensing and registration? Same can be said for animagi...probably a few out there who hope they won't get caught. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me; | n2fgc at arrl.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From barbara_mbowen at yahoo.com Sat Jul 3 19:34:16 2004 From: barbara_mbowen at yahoo.com (barbara_mbowen) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 19:34:16 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited/character discussions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104197 Lisa wrote: At this point, having been essentially asked why I'm not 'defending' a character I like, I find myself sort of throwing up my hands and asking, "What's the point?" I agree with Marianne and Lisa. I first joined the list a year ago, and aside froma few posts about my favorite fugitive, Regulus Black, I mostly lurk. Lately, I've tried not to read the Snape/sirius posts, because I think I've heard it all before. I remember a post which claimed that Sirius probably didn't escape from Azkaban by himself, and was much too stupid to have become an animagus by himself (or else that becoming an animagus must be easy) and I got the idea. Some posters will never even allow that Sirius did the things that canon says he did. McGonagal says he was brilliant? McGonnagal has it wrong. Canon says he escaped from Azkaban? Someone else must have done it for him (Sorry I don't have the post number, but I believe it was Dumbledore who was given the credit.) And so on. I, too, like Sirius very much. I don't like Snape at all (had a seventh grade French teacher he too much resembles...) I realize I won't convince any of the Snape apologists and why should I try to convince them what a rotter I think he is? Rotter or not, he's an interesting character, and the books are better off with him in them. Sirius is also an interesting character, or else why do so many people spend so much time and energy bashing him? Both these characters hit nerves with a lot of us, and depending on our own characters, experiences and so forth, we will like/dislike one or both of them. Way to go, JKR! So, while I like Sirius, and find him very much a sympathetic character, I am not interested in defending him from his bashers anymore than I'm interested in trying to convince the Snape apoligists why their boy is vindictive and sadistic and utterly unsympathetic. Who am I going to convince? It was fun for awhile, but it's getting a little old. Bring on Book Six! Marmelade Mom From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sat Jul 3 19:38:53 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 19:38:53 -0000 Subject: a boy in search of a father In-Reply-To: <40E5D1DC.8060003@tds.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104198 Jem: > I was wondering today how I would feel if Harry doesn't resolve this > search for a father by the end of the series. It would be almost as bad > as if he dies because wouldn't a part of him either die or remain > unborn? Doesn't he remain scarred for life if this isn't addressed? > > It would seem very efficient if the HBP could fill the role as a father > figure but I would suspect great conflict on Harry's part in accepting > that relationship. Jen: From a purely psychological view, Harry seems to be working out his need for a father-figure with several different men in the series, each one helping him develop a different aspect of his character. Together they function to help Harry find peace with his absent (and imperfect) father: 1)Dumbledore--Guide and Advisor. Dumbledore plays a much-debated role in Harry's life. I've always felt comfortable with the ambiguity of his role because I don't see him as a parent to Harry, or responsible for every aspect of his welfare. Dumbledore plays a very *specific* role in Harry's life. He is responsible for safe- guarding Harry's destiny, not his physical/emotional well-being. He offers spiritual guidance, but is less useful for day-to-day problem- solving. IMO, Dumbledore involves Hagrid in Harry's life early on, to offer more of the emotional support Harry needs. 2) Hagrid--the Protector and Companion. He literally saves Harry from the Dursleys, then continues to play an ongoing role in Harry's life on a daily basis. The Trio often talk to him when seeking advice, asking questions, etc., maybe less so as they age (in fact, Sirius takes over this role after POA). In addition, Hagrid also turns to Harry at times, helping Harry develop his empathy. 3) Lupin--Teacher and Mentor. As Renee V. once pointed out to me, Lupin's first act in the series is to bring light to the darkness. His role seems the most obvious to me, and that's why I can't see him as being evil. Lupin assists Harry in many ways, but remembers he's the adult in the relationship. Lupin doesn't treat Harry as an equal, as Hagrid and Sirius occasionally do, but shows Harry immense respect as a person and a powerful wizard. 4) Snape & Vernon--Critical Parent. This role is just as important as the others for Harry's development. Harry needs to learn who he *doesn't* want to be when he grows up, as much as seeing men he admires and emulates. It's that same thing we all go through with the good-parent, bad-parent slpit, Harry just gets the added bonus of *two* extremely critical people. Makes the lesson faster, you know ;). So, I don't know if Harry really needs one particular father-figure. He has a unique life and I'm not sure any one person would be physically or emotionally capable of helping him deal with all the things he has to work out!! Jen Reese P.S. I didn't include Arthur on this list because I think the primary bond for Harry with the Weasleys, psychologically speaking anyway, is with Molly. From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat Jul 3 19:49:09 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 19:49:09 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited. Character discussions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104199 > Alla: > > Actually, Kneasy I do expect something else from you. Of course, it > does not mean that you have to do it. It is just my take on the debate > > > McGonagall's statement is a canon support to the argument of Sirius > being smart. I, quite frankly expect you to acknowledge it, because I > don't remember anything in canon, supporting the argument that > McGonagall would call a student smart, if he /she was not. > > > For example, as you know , I despise Snape's teaching methods with > passion. :o) > > But, when confronted with the canon support that Snape's class is > academically advanced (statement from Umbridge), I acknowledge that > this is a good evidence in support of the argument that academically > Snape is a good teacher. Potioncat: The first post below was cut-and-pasted from up-thread Kneasy (I think) There is no evidence that he was particularly bright. By all accounts the > Animagus spell doesn't require brains, just practice to get it right. > If he was bright, it wouldn't have taken him 12 years to escape. Potioncat: Joining in per magical contract requirements ;-) Two different points. Do you have to be bright to become an animagus? I don't know. It would seem so and it certainly takes work. It most likelyvtakes strong magical abilities as well. But I have to weigh in with Alla here, (with or without contract) McGongall's statement, tied to Black's insistance he did not need to study connected to a known difficulty in becoming an animagus seem to support that Black was smart. Besides, McGonagall says it in two different ways while talking to Fudge. And although I agree, the escape from Azkaban has holes, I don't think it was lack of intelligence which kept him in jail. Besides, his being bright makes him a more worthy adversary of the highly esteemed, much maligned Professor Snape. Potioncat (having fun playing both sides in the same post) From cmjohnstone at hotmail.com Sat Jul 3 20:15:00 2004 From: cmjohnstone at hotmail.com (littleleahstill) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 20:15:00 -0000 Subject: news in OOTP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104200 Karen wrote: >The news in the first chapter of OoP seems to me like it's hidding a >clue. The following were included in the news: >"Record numbers of stranded holidaymakers fill airports as the >Spanish baggage-handlers' strike reaches it's second week-" >helicopter almost crashed in a field in Surrey >famous actress'divorce from her famous husband >"Bungy the budgie has found a novel way of keeping cool this >summer. Bungy, who lives at the Five Feathers in Barnsley, has >learned to water-ski! Mary Dorkins went to find out more..." >The first one really strikes my interest, but I just don't see >anything important in it though I have this weird feeling about it. >What does everyone else think? Leah: I agree with Fridwulfa's earlier reply; the first item seems a commonplace of European summer news and also enables Uncle Vernon to make unpleasant comments. I also think there may be something in the budgie item, but can't get anywhere with it. Most interesting, I think, is the almost crash in Surrey. Why a report on a disaster that didn't actually happen? It's not like a near miss on a crowded passenger plane. IIRC, in PS/SS, Draco shows off about near misses with aircraft when he's on his broomstick and helicopters fly low enough to make that feasible. Given that Little Whinging is in Surrey, and we later encounter Mundungus and Dementors, perhaps there was more wizarding activity about in the skies of Surrey that day than we and the MOM know about. Back to the budgie- there are a lot of feathers on JKR's website- any ideas as to what they signify? Leah From Batchevra at aol.com Sat Jul 3 20:49:26 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:49:26 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: 24 hours again Message-ID: <4b.3fe7e7d9.2e1875d6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104201 In a message dated 7/3/04 7:34:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com writes: >A thought occurs - if it was Peter, would he eavesdrop as Pettigrew at the door or as Scabbers in the rafters? If he was caught as Scabbers and thrown out, it adds a whole new dimension to the Weasley's pet rat being allowed at Hogwarts in contravention of the rule regarding pets. Kneasy< I would say we don't know when that rule of certain type of pets came into being. Maybe Scabbers was already at Hogwarts when the rule was made, Percy had been bringing Scabbers up to his Fifth year when he got an Owl and gave Scabbers to Ron. Lee Jordan in PS/SS had a tarantula that he brought on the Hogwarts Express. According to Fred and George the spider was new. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tim at marvinhold.com Sat Jul 3 20:53:44 2004 From: tim at marvinhold.com (Tim) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 20:53:44 -0000 Subject: Revisiting The Boy when He Lived In-Reply-To: <20040703143942.29232.qmail@webmail30.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104202 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amey Chinchorkar" wrote: > Hi, > > I was thinking of the last hours of Lily Potter (and maybe James), and saw some discepancies. > > 1. We are all wondering that James might not be there at the time >of the Attack (hence >the shocked Lupin when he hears that Harry heard his father's >voice.). If we can trust LV's account of that night, James was there and defended his family heroically. It is entirely possible that Lupin was reacting to the news that Harry was able to access a memory from his 15th month of his father's voice, or he was acknowledging the emotional impact that this memory had on Harry. On the other hand JKR could indeed be using Lupin's exclaimation as a clue. > So there seems to be some discrepancy between the movie scene, >harry's memory and >the Priory order. Which one is the most canon? (i mean which one >should we take as the most perfect as all are canon :)) On JKR's website, there is an explaintion the Priory error in her Books FAQ (click on the paperclips) > > 3. Who told Potters so that they knew "LV was after them long >before" (PoA- Prof McGonall)? The Prophecy said ."born to those who have thrice defied him" so by the time of the prophecy or Harry's birth his parents were on LV's radar. Tim From melclaros at yahoo.com Sat Jul 3 20:55:42 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 20:55:42 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited/character discussions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104203 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat2001" wrote: I'm not sure I could even get you to scratch your head and > say, "Hmmm, maybe she's come up with a microscopic point in his > favor." ;-) In the unlikely event that you did, I'd be there to shake him back to his senses. Kneasy's assesment of Sirius was spot-on, I'm afraid. I've said since PoA came out I couldn't like or trust that character no matter how much I tried, and I did try. Even JKR found him dead useless in the end. (Pun intended.) Melpomene From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Sat Jul 3 21:59:11 2004 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 21:59:11 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 21, The Eye of the Snake Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104204 > > 8. Why oh why does the kiss take place off stage? How could JKR *do* > > this to me? >--------- >I think part of it is so that we the readers have very little emotional >attachment to the >Cho/Harry relationship. I don't buy that a description of a mere kiss is >too >scandelous for the likes of Bloosmsbury literature. If falls in love and >has that mind >blowing kiss we all wish for, make no mistake, we'll be there for it >because that will >actually be something we're supposed to care about and attach ourselves to. I think that the reason it takes place off stage is the one given by Harry during Snape's occlumency lesson: It's private. No one but the participants thereof know the exact details. Notice that the description of the tea shop where Harry and Cho go on Valentine's Day is far from complimentary -- it reminds me of Lockhart's Valentine's Day decorations -- and the person (Roger Davies?) who *is* on stage, audibly kissing his girlfriend at the next table, just looks tacky. And also like Lockhart, the relationship between Harry and Cho isn't real and doesn't bear close inspection. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Sat Jul 3 22:06:00 2004 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 22:06:00 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius revisited Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104205 Katie (I think) said: >If the rest of his >family is anything like his mother, I'd say it's remarkable that he >turned out as well as he did :) I'll say. Note that "the rest of his family" includes not only Mrs. Black, but Bellatrix Black Lestrange. If Sirius had latent mental problems, he came by them honestly. Much though I regret his death, it might have been merciful. He wouldn't have become a racist or a sadist, but he might have ended up with some kind of dementia -- possibly the result of the inbreeding in his family. (I know some people have protested that inbreeding isn't *necessarily* the cause of instability. But the Blacks took it as far as several of the real-world royal families used to -- the Spanish and Austrian, for example -- with not dissimilar results.) Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sat Jul 3 22:16:12 2004 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 22:16:12 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104206 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > > Kneasy: > Yes, she does. Naturally I discount this (would you expect anything else?) > My reading of McGonagals character is that she's one of those teachers > for whom all geese are swans, and in addition would use a measure of > hyperbole when talking of someone that a) she liked, and b) was dead. Hickengruendler: But when she said this neither of the above was true. Sirius was still very alive and McGonagall thought him to be a murderer and the betrayer of the Potters. Therefore I doubt she liked him at that point very much. I do think it's canon that he was top of the class. His arrogant behaviour during the OWLs and afterwards seems to imply this, too. That said, I agree with some of your other points. I quite like Sirius as a character, but as a human being he is IMO mostly unsympathetic. I do think Sirius has his good sides besides his love for Harry, and I also think that his time in Azkaban didn't help him grow up and that he probably had a pretty unhappy life except in Hogwarts. But he isn't the only character in the Potterverse who had it pretty rough and I don't think his bad life excuses everything. And I just can't forget that he stated in the shrieking shack, that Snape deserved that Sirius sent him to the werewolf. I think this speaks volumes about Sirius' complete lack to take any responsibility or to see the possible consequences of his actions. I won't go that far to say that he wanted to kill Snape, because I don't think he wanted. But nonetheless this scene implies a complete lack of respect not only for Snape, but also for Lupin's feelings. If I were Snape, I wouldn't have forgiven him either. Especially because he showed no remorse. I felt sorry when he died, but mostly sorry for Harry, because he lost yet another father figure. Hickengruendler From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jul 3 22:27:29 2004 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 23:27:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: Harry's special power, which leads to Dumbledore as the Half Blood Prince Message-ID: <20040703222729.6423.qmail@web25106.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104207 Jen Reese wrote: >>One of the crucial parts of the series to me is how Harry came to be the 'One with the Power to Vanquish the Dark Lord'... >>In spite of this, I tend toward the first explanation, that Harry was indeed born with an innate power to vanquish the Dark Lord, whether he chooses to manifest it or not... >>And here is where Harry starts to show an uncanny ability to call to himself the people, creatures and objects that he needs in his fight against Voldemort...<<< Every now and then I come across a wonderful post which moves me so much smoke gets in my eyes. Jen's was one of them. What she has said about Harry here is so to the point! She really has summed it all up for me! Harry does have a special power and it's not the power which he accidentally received from Voldemort. I just can't understand how people can think that if Voldemort had chosen Neville instead of Harry, the series would be called "Neville L...and...". In none of the great liberating things Harry has done has he made use of magic powers derived from Voldemort! He didn't use magic to get the Stone out of the mirror; it was his unselfishness that did that. He didn't use magic to defeat the basilisk; it was his care for Ginny, his loyalty to dumbledore and his true Gryffindor courage. He didn't use magic to liberate Dobby; it was his compassion, his forgiveness of all the pain Dobby had caused him, his outrage at the injustice being done to Dobby and his intelligence and resourcefulness. If I had been in Harry's position I wouldn't have thought of that in a thousand years. Yes the Patronus in book 3 was magic, but it wasn't due to anything he inherited from Voldemort. With her truly inspiring writing JK Rowling describes how Harry learns to conjure up the Patronus with grit and indefatigable endurance. It wasn't magic that drove Voldemort's power back into his wand; it was sheer willpower (which Harry had practised during DADA lessons) and the determination not to let Voldemort win on any account. It was not magic that drove Voldemort out of Harry's mind; it was the love for his Godfather. And all of this depends on Harry's choices, or, as you so rightly put it, "part of Harry's ability to defeat Voldemort is that he *chooses* to do so". Hear hear! Another point Jen makes is very powerful and few people seem to notice this: "And here is where Harry starts to show an uncanny ability to call to himself the people, creatures and objects that he needs in his fight against Voldemort. Harry calls this luck, but it seems more like a special power he possesses. An ability to call forth what is needed, when he needs it." Absolutely! Thanks for pointing that out. And what I love about Harry is his (true) modesty. In my mind true modesty is not knowing, or not acknowledging, that you've done anything special. I'm not talking about modesty where you know what you've done is great, but you don't rub it in everyone's face. Modesty in my mind is not worrying about whether you're doing great things. You just do what your heart tells you - as Harry does. "And that's another aspect of Harry's power - he is surrounded by people who are loyal to him because they love him." Exactly! And why do people love him? Because he truly cares about the people around him. The brilliance of JK Rowling's writing is that it's all so matter-of fact. You have to read between the lines; you have to cogitate to perceive the full import of her message. It doesn't specifically say that Harry cares about people; you have to work that out for yourself. But remember when Harry first met Ron in the train, and how good Harry felt at being able to share something for the first time in his life. Or remember the part where Harry and Ron hear about Ginny being in the Chamber of Secrets, or when Harry first heard screams in his mind in the presence of dementors. He wanted to help the woman, even though at that stage he didn't realise it was his mother. Another quality that Harry hasn't got from Voldemort is his perceptiveness. If you read the books carefully you will see thousands of instances where Harry notices things that are very subtle. Most of the time other people don't notice these things. Why is Harry so perceptive? Because he cares about others. That's not in the books; that's my opinion, my own life experience. People who are selfish only notice things that will benefit them in some way. Harry notices things like people's feelings, their motives, their needs and anxieties. Quoting canon would lead to extremely long lists. If you'll read the books with these things in mind you'll see what I mean. I do take issue with one point Jen makes: >>Many times in interviews, JKR or others talk about how Harry is every-boy, and that is why he's so appealing. He's smart but not brilliant, makes many mistakes, and seems special only in his ability to fly and aptitude for DADA. ***In spite of this,*** I tend toward the first explanation, that Harry was indeed born with an innate power to vanquish the Dark Lord, whether he chooses to manifest it or not.<< "IN SPITE OF THIS"? But Jen, the whole point of the books is that everyone, yes EVERYONE has the "innate power to vanquish the dark lord". Harry is our example, our inspiration, the one we need to follow. All of us have Voldemort within us. And all of us have the power to vanquish him. This is one of the great things that many people are saying about the books. People find Harry so inspiring! There was a story on one of the HP sites recently saying that a well-known educator and author burst into tears when seeing PoA because it was the FIRST time in her life that she had seen a film (for teenagers as she thought) that taught that ALL our weaknesses, and all our powers to vanquish them are WITHIN ourselves! If that were to be the only things the books achieved it would already make them worthwhile. Finally, I don't know who the Half Blood Prince will be. As I said in my last post, the trio itself (HRH) seems to be the Prince, but that's impossible, so I give up. Harry's my Prince and I'm sure about that! Thanks again, Jen for you wonderful post. Hans in Holland ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From snow15145 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 3 22:45:03 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 22:45:03 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited/character discussions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104208 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat2001" > wrote: > I'm not sure I could even get you to scratch your head and > > say, "Hmmm, maybe she's come up with a microscopic point in his > > favor." ;-) > > In the unlikely event that you did, I'd be there to shake him back > to his senses. Kneasy's assesment of Sirius was spot-on, I'm afraid. > I've said since PoA came out I couldn't like or trust that character > no matter how much I tried, and I did try. Even JKR found him dead > useless in the end. (Pun intended.) > > Melpomene Snow: I am just curious if you liked the fake Moody before you found out who he actually was? And be honest! If your answer is yes, I would have to suggest that you watch out more for the likeable character than the unlikable one...cough, cough Sirius or Snape. I have two stepsons who my husband referred to in the past as Cain and Cain. This is many years ago now but the first one, Chris, was, in Harry Potter language, like Lupin. (I'll skip the description of likeable) The second child, Jeremy, reminds me of Sirius (again skipping description). I was drawn at first to Chris because he was the more likeable of the two. Chris caused much less disturbance than Jeremy and was seen as the quieter of the two. As I dealt with the children, and there many circumstances, I came to realize that it was the Jeremy/Sirius type who I could always count on to be who he really was even though I might not have liked who I saw at first, he was, despite my first instincts, the less troublesome of the two. The Lupin/Chris type of person was "I want you to like me" type personality whom everyone, including myself, did immediately like but became aware that he didn't like himself and proved that he couldn't be trusted. To get to the point Jeremy would do the wrong deed in front of you (making you dislike him more) while Chris would attempt to disguise it (and you fell for this ploy because the other was so bad) in hopes of blaming the obvious one. Jeremy would get into trouble ten times a week while Chris would not get in trouble for a year but when it came down to it Chris's trouble was always worse than all of Jeremy's trouble for that year combined. In the end, beware the likeable character especially in the Potter books! From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Sat Jul 3 23:05:06 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 23:05:06 -0000 Subject: Human's Emotions vs. Dogs (Re: Sirius revisited) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104209 >>> Kneasy wrote: > But I do find it interesting that after cobbling together a long, not very complimentary screed on the life and times of Sirius he seems to have so few committed defenders. <<< Bren now: Well, not entirely, I just came back from exciting family trip (to Montreal, Mont Tremblanc and Ottawa...) and oh boy, I'm behind about 200 posts now! But I'm back to defend my fictional sexy-beast lover, lol. >>> Nora wrote: > > Dementors go for emotions, which are a rather different kettle of > > fish than thoughts and even intelligence--and unless you're going to be SO skeptical (tsk, tsk!) to not believe the comment that emotions are simpler when a dog, even if you do keep your human > > intelligence....well... :) Seems to me that that's a pretty clear piece of JKR exposition. It's possible to doubt everything, but then where do you end up? > Kneasy responds: > Why should they be simpler? Emotions are simple - very simple. > Anger is anger, love is love, hate is hate, fear is fear. > What could be simpler than that? > Now if you can demonstrate (with empirical proof) any differences > between human (a self-regarding animal) and dog emotions, I'll be > happy to concede. Bren now: Whohoo! The Neuroscientist comes to the rescue! I'm afraid I must correct you, Kneasy. Emotions are not simple at all. I must agree with Nora. The best example of how emotions are "a rather different kettle of fish than thoughts and even intelligence (Nora's words)" is the fact that human brain emits extracranial magnetic field in response to our emotions, but not to our thoughts/intelligence. Basically, emotional responses elicit human brain to create magnetic field outside. As conventional as it sounds, this is one of the most significant discoveries in 21st Century Neuroscience -- giving rise to brainimaging technologies such as Electroencephalography (EEG) and Magnetoencephalography (MEG). Everyday, around the world, vast number of patients depend on these, as pre-surgical evaluation tools for instance. The kind of brain functions (?) that can be detected using these brainimaging tools are: epilepsy, stroke, somatosensory mapping, language (both auditory and visual), emotion, musical hearing, etc etc. This leads me to believe that when Dementors are sensing human emotions, they are sensing these extracranial magnetic fields. But they can't really feed on human thoughts and intelligence, if they could then they will be Legilimens, no? Human's cognitive functions operate on a "higher level" than emotions, I believe. I'm not a cognitive psychologist, but safe to assume that our thoughts are much harder to be sensed. That is my understanding of it anyways. I'm not too sure if JKR thought of it that way as well. As for the differences between human and dog emotions, I haven't studied other animals extensively so I can't give you any conclusive proof ? but I can suspect this much. Emotions are very closely related to memory and learning. That is to say, every new memory or learning that we obtain, a certain kind/ "shade" of emotions is attached. This phenomenon makes it crucial for our own survival, and thus it makes sense that mammalian limbic system before neocortex. Mammalian brain evolved in 3 different stages (`Triune brain') 1. Archipallium ? basic cell preservation & maintenance, homeostasis, balance/ posture, eye movements 2. Paleopallium (limbic system) ? emotional responses, motivation, Circadian rhythm, learning & memory, hunger & thirst, association of experiences with environment/ situations, fear & aggression 3. Neopallium (new cortex) ? higher cognitive functions, intelligence, problem-solving skills (Why developed? ? if our every action was driven by homeostatic regulations and emotional mechanisms only, we would have problems solving our basic needs, putting us at risk.) Going back to Dementors and how Sirius escaped them, he says "[Dementors] feel their way towards people by sensing their EMOTIONS they could tell that my feelings are less ? LESS HUMAN, less complex when I was a dog" (PoA, 272. UK ? emphasis mine). Notice that Sirius says "less COMPLEX", not "my feelings are gone". Recalling the fact that emotions are attached to memory and learning, I think it is implies that animals' feelings are less complex because their abilities to store (new) memories and learning are not as well- developed as humans'. Dogs can't learn or obtain new information as efficiently as humans, and therefore they have far more primitive and basic range of emotions. Does this answer your question, Kneasy? Or have I confused you even more? I'll be more than happy to elaborate on this if you like, just let me know. Bren From plinker at yahoo.com Sat Jul 3 14:33:49 2004 From: plinker at yahoo.com (Plinker) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 14:33:49 -0000 Subject: Draco Malfoy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104210 What is to become of the Potter-Malfoy feud? Now that the trio of Malfoy, Crabb and Goyle are in prison, how will there sons behave now that their famlies have lost their clout? "Plinker" From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Sat Jul 3 15:09:35 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 3 Jul 2004 15:09:35 -0000 Subject: About Animagi, Sirius and a wild theory for Evesdropping Message-ID: <20040703150935.30127.qmail@webmail9.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104211 Hi All, >>>Tanya here >>>>While it is hilarious to imagine a nose biting teapot animagi James, >>>>he turned out to be a stag. Animagi and Nosebiting Teacup??? A teacup is not animal.. so he can't turn into one as animagi, maybe charming himself into becoming one is possible (and given James, more than possible, highly probable, if he can be near Severus) :) >>>>Kneasy: >>>>Yes, she does. Naturally I discount this (would you expect anything else?) >>>>My reading of McGonagals character is that she's one of those teachers >>>>for whom all geese are swans, and in addition would use a measure of >>>>hyperbole when talking of someone that a) she liked, and b) was dead. >>>>She just strikes me as that type. I may be wrong. She is talking about Sirius, who is not at all dead, and given his (believed) history upto that point, she can't like him at all. SO whatever she says about Sirius must be right. Also Lupin confirms that... I dont remember exact words, but what he says boils down to fact that James and Sirius were very brilliant and so they could easily become animagi, and Peter needed their help. Also, to create The Map, they had to be more than above-avarage intelligence, its one cool bit of magic. >>>>Katie >>>> I think that Sirius is being judged a bit too harshly. Would you >>>>consider James always to be a sadistic bully? Or Snape to be an >>>>arrogant racist? Then why place so much importance on Sirius' >>>>behavior in the Pensieve scene? I don't think he comes out too much >>>>worse in that memory than anyone else (except Lily, of course.) I agree here. There are very few black and white characters in WW, most people are shades of grey. Sirius might have been a bully, but he is definitely not the bad guy or spy. He comes across as a person who lost his best friend very early in life, and then he is trying to re-live the life. But he can't now live normal life as he is a person on the run. Also, he can't do anything to help Order more actively (and can't help to revenge the murder of his best friend, am I the only person who is thinking on this track?) Also, he gets enough taunts for being at home from Severus, and his other best friend (Lupin, i can't think of much friction between them now that only 2 marauders are remaining in a sense) is working actively. This all builds up a frustration, about which he can't talk (being a proud man, not arrogant). So Sirius is surely one character who needs some sympathy, because his life was not "Chosen by him" but "chosen for him". (After saying all this, I will really be very much sad if he IS the real bad guy, hope not, as his mirror is going to play major role, according to JKR). >>>on 3/7/2004 10:30 PM, arrowsmithbt at arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com wrote: > A thought occurs - if it was Peter, would he eavesdrop as Pettigrew at > the door or as Scabbers in the rafters? If he was caught as Scabbers and > thrown out, it adds a whole new dimension to the Weasley's pet rat being > allowed at Hogwarts in contravention of the rule regarding pets. There is rule in Hogwarts about bringing cats, owls and toads. I dont remember anything about rats, but it can't be illegal to bring them. I can't see McGonall allowing anything like that... And who caught Scabbers evesdropping???? A wild guess... Crrokshanks??? :) I mean, a rat has to run if cat comes sniffing, or he might had to transform back, and that would have been pretty bad scene if he was caught, might be end of him as member of Order. That will really be interesting, as it will account for his dislike against scabbers from first place. Also, scabbers disappeared to get away from him, is there more in it than meets the eye? I have started to think of many wild theories now, so I must sign off... Amey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rebekarg at yahoo.com.br Sat Jul 3 16:00:55 2004 From: rebekarg at yahoo.com.br (=?iso-8859-1?q?Rebeka=20Gomes?=) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 13:00:55 -0300 (ART) Subject: [HPforGrownups] There's a King! was (There Was a King in CoS-HBP revealed!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040703160055.95160.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104212 "Weasley is our King, Weasley is our King!" words by Draco Malfoy Music by Slytherin House -- Order of the Phoenix ===== ~Rebeka _______________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail agora com 100MB, anti-spam e antivrus grtis! http://br.info.mail.yahoo.com/ From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat Jul 3 23:37:25 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 23:37:25 -0000 Subject: Human's Emotions vs. Dogs (Re: Sirius revisited) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104213 Bren wrote: snipping good background info > Going back to Dementors and how Sirius escaped them, he > says "[Dementors] feel their way towards people by sensing their > EMOTIONS they could tell that my feelings are less ? LESS HUMAN, > less complex when I was a dog" (PoA, 272. UK ? emphasis mine). Notice > that Sirius says "less COMPLEX", not "my feelings are gone". > Recalling the fact that emotions are attached to memory and learning, > I think it is implies that animals' feelings are less complex because > their abilities to store (new) memories and learning are not as well- > developed as humans'. Dogs can't learn or obtain new information as > efficiently as humans, and therefore they have far more primitive and > basic range of emotions. > > Does this answer your question, Kneasy? Or have I confused you even > more? I'll be more than happy to elaborate on this if you like, just > let me know. > Potioncat: But an animagus is supposed to keep his "human self" (I don't recall a good word for this) as opposed to someone who is transfigured into an animal. In that case the animal nature takes over. So the Animagus Black Dog should still have had human emotions. Potioncat From jqwillia at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jul 3 17:25:27 2004 From: jqwillia at yahoo.co.uk (jqwillia) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 17:25:27 -0000 Subject: Broderick Bode's visitor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104214 > Carol wrote: > Regarding his visitor (from an earlier post that I snipped), the > visitor may be perfectly innocent since he didn't bring the plant. It > was sent anonymously. Maybe his gift was the calendar with the fancy > hippogriffs. (?) > > Carol, who's pretty sure we haven't heard the end of this incident Carol, I think you are right - we will come back to this incident. The visitor to Bode is descibed as "stooped" (I don't have the book with me) and so is the death eater Nott in the GoF. JK has described Nott as very elderly on her website. I know this is a stretch, but I think the visitor did deliver the Devil's snare to Bode, and his identity was Nott. Sorry for any mistakes, this is my first EVER post, from a long time lurker... "jqwillia" From catlady at wicca.net Sun Jul 4 01:03:32 2004 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 01:03:32 -0000 Subject: LV'swand/foreshadowng/Augustus/Merlin/HBP/Guardian/Salazar/Warbecks/Feathers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104215 Gina Miller wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/103410 : << has anyone ever asked how LV got his wand back? The house was rubble so did someone go get it? >> Personally, I always assumed that LV took Pettigrew with him when he went to kill the Potters (altho' Legilimency weakens such motives as making sure that he is not being sent to a trap by making Peter walk in front of him, or making sure that he is not being sent on a wild goose chase by having Peter available to be immediately punished), so when LV was disintegratedd, Peter grabbed up his wand before scampering away in rat form. He may have hidden it somewhere from whence he retrieved it on the way to rejoin LV, or may have kept it with him in rat form all those years. cincimaelder wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/103443 : << Any thoughts on which parts of PoA foreshadow 6 and 7? >> When Harry in the movie returns the crystal ball to Trelawney's classroom, there is a furry gray cat sleeping on the chair. Will a gray cat-Kneazle turn up in book 6 or 7? When Mcanair in the movie axes the pumpkin and the ravens fly up, one raven perches on Fudge's hat. There are a billion things that could foreshadow, of which one is a big heavy statue of the Ravenclaw mascot (an eagle) falling on Fudge and crushing him to death. Just Carol wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/103579 : << I think that the American editor wanted to avoid confusion between Algernon Longbottom and Algernon Rookwood and suggested (sensibly) that Rookwood's first name be changed to Augustus. >> IIRC Great-Uncle Algie has always been Great-Uncle Algie, but in GoF, the Pensieve trial scene: "Yes!" said Karkaroff. "There was Travers -- he helped murder the McKinnons! Mulciber -- he specialised in the Imperius curse, forced countless people to do horrific things! Rookwood, who was a spy, and passed He Who Must Not Be Named useful information from inside the Ministry itself!" Harry could tell that, this time, Karkaroff had struck gold. The watching crowd were all murmuring together. "Rookwood?" said Mr Crouch, nodding to a witch sitting in front of him, who began scribbling upon her piece of parchment. "Augustus Rookwood of the Department of Mysteries?" That is, Rookwood's personal name was Augustus in GoF, so changing it to Algernon in UK OoP seems like an error. Notyourpoet wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/103775 : << It seems that all of the surprises come from James as well - MWP and P, being an animagus, and the invisibility cloak. What if one last surprise would be grandparents, or some other family/sibling outside of what has been mentioned. >> To which Tanya replied in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/103787 : << I can comment. When Sirius was telling Harry about running away to the Potters, he says that James' parents treated him like a 2nd son. Of course that doesn't allow for any hints if James had any sisters.>> Also, in the World Book Day chat, http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/extras/JKRWorldBookDay2004.html Q: What happend to Harry's grandparents? Will we ever learn about them? JK Rowling: They're all dead and not particularly important to the story, although you will find out a little bit more. Rowena Grunnion-ffitch wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/103807 : << Maybe the prince is ... Merlin. He's been mentioned several times as a historical figure in the wizarding world and according to legend he was the son of a Welsh princess by an incubus, (for which read wizard) making him both a half-blood and a prince. >> Such an interesting idea that I looked up Merlin's entry in the Harry Potter Lexiconm. It says: << Most famous wizard of all time, a Charms specialist sometimes known as the Prince of Enchanters; Merlin appears on a Chocolate Frog trading card (SS6, CS/g). Merlin was part of the Court of King Arthur. (King Arthur once ruled the land that is now part of England.) Merlin wanted wizards to help Muggles, so he created the Order of Merlin. The Order made rules against using magic on Muggles (CS/g). >> That indicates that he was called "Prince of Enchanters" for his achievements, and that he was a Muggle-lover. Even if he were a pureblood wizard, a Muggle-hater could well have angrily said "Prince of Half-Bloods" instead of "Prince of Enchanters". In other words, I think your conclusion works even in versions that give him different parentage. I actually can invent ways in which (the history of) Merlin could have been in book 2 -- e.g. as part of his rift with Godric, Salazar tried to discredit Merlin the Muggle-lover by revealing that Merlin was a half-breed, or maybe that Merlin was entirely Muggle-born and the story of his father being a wizard was made up by snobby wizards. Altho' I still feel that the HBP of the title is either Tom Riddle or Salazar Slytherin. Snow wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforG rownups/message/104017 : << Also take note that Half and Blood are not hyphened or as one word. Each word in the title has its own meaning not the suggested meaning. >> I was thinking of the Half Blood-Prince, which would require figuring out what a Blood-Prince is. Rather than the boring and irrelevant RL phrase "a prince of the blood" to mean a royal prince, I'd rather think it's something JKR invented, as she invented Metamorphmagus. ... Maybe a human with bloodhound tracking abilities ... but how would that relate to book 2? Easier to figure is a prince who is half blood and half something else ... half [flesh and] blood = the bionic man? Del wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGr ownups/message/103875 : << Fleur : first of, she's a female, so she couldn't be a prince. And second she's a quarter Veela, not half, but that might not mean much to the purebloods >> Fleur's FATHER is male and he's half-Veela unless Fleur's mother is half-Veela, which seems unlikely to me as when Harry glimpsed her seeing Fleur before the Third Task, he didn't notice her being so much as good-looking for her age. No, I can't think of anyway in which Fleur's father could have started out in book 2. Kneasy wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/103903 : << To be appointed 'Guardian' in the UK requires legally registered documentation. >> I don't believe these wizards do their legal stuff with the Muggle courts. I doubt that Harry has a Muggle birth certificate (except one magically forged for him to go to Muggle school with Dudley) or that his parents had a Muggle marriage certificate. If they appointed a guardian for Harry just in case (which I happen to believe they did, and it was Sirius, however bad or good a choice that was), they did it according to wizsrding law. Gina wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforG rownups/message/104060 : << Initially I believed Harry was somehow a descendent of both SS and GG and THAT is why he could "choose" which house he belonged in. I know this theory has been shot down many times by interviews saying Harry is not related to LV and that he has no living relatives but the Dursleys, but Tom Riddle is in fact dead so I stand firm to my theory that Harry carries the blood of both! >> In the RUMORS tabloid on JKR's website, she says: << 18/02/04 Rumor: Voldemort is Harry's real father / grandfather / close relative of some description. Exclusive: No, no, no, no, no. You have definitely been watching much too much Star Wars. James is DEFINITELY Harry's father -- doesn't everybody Harry meets say: "You look just like your father"? And hasn't Dumbledore already told Harry that Voldemort is the last surviving descendent of Salazar Slytherin? Just to clarify -- this means that Harry is NOT a descendent of Salazar Slytherin.>> The important sentence is the last one: << Just to clarify -- this means that Harry is NOT a descendent of Salazar Slytherin.>> Smart wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/104169 : << is there any mention in any of the books that two wizards/witches/ ANYbody have the same last name, that aren't related? The only other instance I can think of is the Warbeck's, but there has been almost nothing about them anyhow.>> Warbecks? Celestina Warbeck the Singing Sorceress and who else? Leah wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforG rownups/message/104200 : << Back to the budgie- there are a lot of feathers on JKR's website- any ideas as to what they signify? >> I thought they were a reference to quill pens used by wizards. From lziner at yahoo.com Sun Jul 4 01:19:27 2004 From: lziner at yahoo.com (lziner) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 01:19:27 -0000 Subject: Boggart/ Patronus Musings Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104216 In POA, we never see Lupins Patronus just his boggart -the moon. I've read some posts about James' Patronus - I'm just wondering about the rest of the characters. Anyone venture a guess on the forms of the boggart and or patronus for: James Sirius Dumbledore Snape Peter Any thoughts? LZ From melclaros at yahoo.com Sun Jul 4 01:57:37 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 01:57:37 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited/character discussions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104217 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snow15145" wrote: > Snow: > I am just curious if you liked the fake Moody before you found out > who he actually was? And be honest! I'll be perfectly honest--I enjoyed the character though, I can't say I *liked* him. I certainly preferred him over Sirius. I thought he was a complete nutcase (as I think we were supposed to) and more dangerous around students than even Hagrid, but given the atmosphere around Hogwarts and DD's poor hiring record it wasn't worth worrying about. That was until the ferret episode which despite my feelings towards Draco Malfoy was way out of line--period. Just imagine the howling if Snape had done that--or even threatened to do that. Crouch/Moody's 'unmasking' caught me by surprise just as it did everyone else. But as far as 'liking' him? I never had that deep- down uncomfortable feeling about him that I had about Sirius. There was just always "something about Sirius." If your answer is yes, I would > have to suggest that you watch out more for the likeable character > than the unlikable one...cough, cough Sirius or Snape. > Irrelevant, really. Which characters I'm "watching out for" and which ones I like are completely different subjects. Melpomene From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Sun Jul 4 02:09:32 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 02:09:32 -0000 Subject: Human's Emotions vs. Dogs (Re: Sirius revisited) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104218 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Bren wrote: > snipping good background info > > > Going back to Dementors and how Sirius escaped them, he > > says "[Dementors] feel their way towards people by sensing their > > EMOTIONS they could tell that my feelings are less ? LESS HUMAN, > > less complex when I was a dog" (PoA, 272. UK ? emphasis mine). > Notice > > that Sirius says "less COMPLEX", not "my feelings are gone". > > Recalling the fact that emotions are attached to memory and > learning, > > I think it is implies that animals' feelings are less complex > because > > their abilities to store (new) memories and learning are not as > well- > > developed as humans'. Dogs can't learn or obtain new information > as > > efficiently as humans, and therefore they have far more primitive > and > > basic range of emotions. > > > > Does this answer your question, Kneasy? Or have I confused you > even > > more? I'll be more than happy to elaborate on this if you like, > just > > let me know. > > > > Potioncat responded: > But an animagus is supposed to keep his "human self" (I don't recall > a good word for this) as opposed to someone who is transfigured into > an animal. In that case the animal nature takes over. So the > Animagus Black Dog should still have had human emotions. Bren again: Well... in my original post # 104209, I was merely answering Kneasy's question about how human (a self-regarding animal) and dog emotions are different. Normal dog that is. As for Animagus-animals (AAs), I have no clue how it works. I don't think it's very clear from the books how Animagus Transfiguration actually works. But I always thought that AAs were more close to animals than humans. Possibly from Lupin's comment in PoA, 260, UK: " 'They couldn't keep me comopany as humans, so they kept me company as animals,' said Lupin. 'A werewolf is only a danger to people' " How is an Animagus different from someone who is transfigured into an animal? Isn't that the definition of Animagus? And what does it mean by "human self" exactly? Keeping one's thoughts/intelligence/memories intact when transforming -- does that qualify as "human self"? I always imagined Padfoot!Sirius to be a black dog that is every bit of a dog, with Sirius' intelligence intact. Not the whole human Sirius in the body/form of a dog, but an actual dog with Sirius' brain. After all, animals in WW seem to have intelligence and some language skills. But Padfoot's emotional range -- I'm not too sure. I can sit here whack my brain on this, or simply take Sirius' words for it. We don't know how it works, but it does, and made it easier for Sirius to endure Azkaban. I wonder if he meant 'it was easier to *hide* my emotions when I was a dog'? Bren, who wishes she could keep Sirius as her pet!! And much more... *naughty* -- long weekend can do this to ya! From cressida_tt at hotmail.com Sat Jul 3 19:49:46 2004 From: cressida_tt at hotmail.com (cressida_tt) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 19:49:46 -0000 Subject: Did Lily have any girl friends? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104219 Vivian "vmonte" wrote: > Did Lily have any female friends? We know a lot about James's > friends but nothing at all about Lily's pals. Did Harry have a > Godmother? I suppose we will have to wait and see. Cressida: I assume that Lily must have had friends of her own at school - she is painted as apparently good and kind so it stands to reason that she would probably also be popular. In Philosopher's Stone, Hagrid mentions that he sent around to all of James and Lily's friends to get photographs of them for the album he gave to Harry. It seems to imply that they BOTH had friends and I would assume that some of Lily's would be female. I can only imagine that they haven't been mentioned because they haven't so far had an important contribution to the plot. There is after all only so much space in the books and that is largely taken up by current events. I wonder if James and Lily's background is one of the things that JK Rowling would include in the Hogwarts fact book she has mentioned from time to time. Cressida From aandj at labyrinth.net.au Sat Jul 3 22:24:21 2004 From: aandj at labyrinth.net.au (Jocelyn Grunow) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 09:24:21 +1100 Subject: 24 hours again/ a boy in search of a father In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104220 > "Students may also bring an owl OR a cat OR a toad." PS/SS chap 5. Thanks for clearing that up, Kneasy, Batchevra, Laura & Christelle! Jen says: >P.S. I didn't include Arthur on this list [as a father figure] because I think >the primary bond for Harry with the Weasleys, psychologically speaking >anyway, is with Molly. Yes I agree with this, but Arthur does also serve to show a loving marriage-bond in action. It really doesn't seem as if Harry has seen many normal happy families - and while this is definitely not a perfect marriage, it is a happy one. Jocelyn From aandj at labyrinth.net.au Sat Jul 3 22:24:21 2004 From: aandj at labyrinth.net.au (Jocelyn Grunow) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 09:24:21 +1100 Subject: Sirius revisited. Character discussions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104221 Smart said: >So what you are saying means that even when Sirius escaped Azkaban, he still >had to relive his old life, feelings, memories, etc. since he was again trapped >in that old house, in which no one stayed for long. So basically, the only fun >Sirius ever had was when he was immature and childish, during his school >years after running away from home. Then, for the rest of his life, he was >forced to relive the horrible past, with one or two exceptions. Forced to >think about his past, this is what drove him to murder (Peter) since that is >all he really had to think about in Azkaban, that wasn't necessarily a good >feeling (it's murder/wrong) nor bad (avenging his best friend's death). I guess I would say that I see the sequence as: 1) He was immature, but not unnaturally so, when he was involved in traumatic events 2) He was immediately imprisoned and forced to relive all the bad things in his life for another 10 years or so 3) This meant that he didn't use that time to grow up 4) Nor could he use this time to gain perspective 5) In fact he became estranged further from normal life, and obsessed with revenge 6) When he escaped he was never going to be able to snap back to normal - he needed time and counselling and love 7) Unfortunately he escaped into a war zone, where he was a fugitive and his needs were not a priority. 8) I would add in here KATIE's suggestion that he was probably clinically depressed during OotP. I think that makes a lot of sense. De said: >I think there was at least one person who cared a lot for Sirius, who loved him > : Remus Lupin I think Sirius might have refused, quite unconsciously >maybe, any help his best friend wanted to give him. Yes, I think you're right. I didn't give enough consideration to Remus. Katie also said: > It seems to me (though I may well be wrong) that HP fans are often quite > absolutist about the characters in the books. There's a tendency to see > characters as overwhelmingly evil or good, begetting character assassination > and complex theories (frequently involving charms and spells to affect > personality) to justify a "good" character's morally ambiguous choices. My > question is, why do we need characters to be overwhelmingly one thing or > another, to a degree that would be unrealistic in real life? I think this may be a function not only of personality, but also of life-experience - and therefore partly of age. I think as we experience more morally ambiguous situations in life we come to recognise more shades of grey. We come to understand why people do heinous things without seeing themselves as heinous people. And I suspect more younger people participate in these discussions than older people. The ability to comfortably use computers in this way is far more common among those in their 20s than those in their 80s, I would venture! Jocelyn From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 4 02:29:57 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 02:29:57 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited. Character discussions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104222 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Jocelyn Grunow wrote: big snip. > > 8) I would add in here KATIE's suggestion that he was probably clinically > depressed during OotP. I think that makes a lot of sense. Alla: Definitely, not only he was clinically depressed in OoP, but I would say in Shack he was showing the symptoms of PTSD, from which I guess he never got a chance to fully recover. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 4 02:37:26 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 02:37:26 -0000 Subject: Boggart/ Patronus Musings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104223 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lziner" wrote: > In POA, we never see Lupins Patronus just his boggart -the moon. > I've read some posts about James' Patronus - I'm just wondering > about the rest of the characters. > > Anyone venture a guess on the forms of the boggart and or patronus > for: > > James > Sirius > Dumbledore > Snape > Peter > > Any thoughts? > > LZ Well, JKR said in the March Chat that Snape's Patronus and Boggart will be important to the plot. I used to think that Snape's Patronus will be Dumbledore. I am now thinking that Snape's Patronus could be Lily (if Snape indeed had feelings for her) and Snape's Boggart could be James. As a member of SAD DENIAl I am hoping that we will get a chance to actually SEE Sirius patronus some day. :o) I have no clue about James, though. I think it will be very important to the plot too. Peter? Well, I despise him therefore I don't really think that he deserves to have a Patronus. :) Alla From greatraven at hotmail.com Sun Jul 4 03:47:23 2004 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 03:47:23 -0000 Subject: Draco Malfoy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104224 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Plinker" wrote: > What is to become of the Potter-Malfoy feud? Now that the trio of > Malfoy, Crabb and Goyle are in prison, how will there sons behave now > that their famlies have lost their clout? > > "Plinker" Sue: Good point. Crabbe and Goyle are basically just Draco's sidekicks anyway. They'll just do what he tells them. And I can see him working for revenge in the next couple of books, perhaps even being recruited by LV. Perhaps - who knows? - in the middle of it all, his eyes will be opened and he'll see he's been had. Possibly his father will betray him, or LV will want him to do something that will get him killed. Isn't it fun speculating? :-) From ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 3 18:31:24 2004 From: ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com (ohneill_2001) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 18:31:24 -0000 Subject: Patronus / Lily's Patronus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104225 ~<(Laurasia)>~ wrote: > Interestingly enough, when writing this post it clicked that a > Patronus is a *charm* something which Lily is meant to have been > good at (from what Ollivander says about her wand in PS). It's more > likely *she* was able to produce one, rather than 'excellent-at- > transfiguration' James. I wonder, what would Lily's Patronus have > been? > > She doesn't have any animal parallel descriptors to guide us. > Hmm... Any ideas? Surely not a doe... Unicorn? This is an interesting thought, and I do wonder whether it will arise. I wouldn't necessarily call either of these a "prediction," but offhand, the two possibilities that I would find interesting for Lily's patronus would be a lion or...I'm almost afraid to suggest it, but...a serpent. "ohneill_2001" From McGregorMax at ec.rr.com Sun Jul 4 04:12:59 2004 From: McGregorMax at ec.rr.com (mcmaxslb) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 04:12:59 -0000 Subject: Patronus / Lily's Patronus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104226 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ohneill_2001" wrote: > ~<(Laurasia)>~ wrote: > > Interestingly enough, when writing this post it clicked that a > > Patronus is a *charm* something which Lily is meant to have been > > good at (from what Ollivander says about her wand in PS). It's more > > likely *she* was able to produce one, rather than 'excellent-at- > > transfiguration' James. I wonder, what would Lily's Patronus have > > been? > > > > She doesn't have any animal parallel descriptors to guide us. > > Hmm... Any ideas? Surely not a doe... Unicorn? Being all the Patronus descriptions have always been real animals, I doubt that Lily had a unicorn. From meltowne at yahoo.com Sun Jul 4 04:15:44 2004 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 04:15:44 -0000 Subject: Understanding OWLs : Note: OWLs without NEWTS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104227 > Reason being is that Snape is EXTREMELY hard on his students. So, I > am guessing that they are above average for their level as compared > to other Wizarding Schools. Even if they don't get Outstandings in > his class by Snapes own grading standard, there is a possibility > they could get an Outstanding on their OWL. Umbridge even mentioned that his class was ahead of where they they should be - suggesting that they should all do well on the exams. It seems that the exams were less stressful for most of them than Snapes classes, so they should do better than they would in class. The whole point of their education is to be able to do these things under stress! As Harry tells Umbridge - what good is the theory of magical defenses if you can't perform any of the spells when you're under attack? From rebekarg at yahoo.com.br Sat Jul 3 15:56:28 2004 From: rebekarg at yahoo.com.br (=?iso-8859-1?q?Rebeka=20Gomes?=) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 12:56:28 -0300 (ART) Subject: The weapon / Favorite Lines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040703155628.74556.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104228 "K": > I've always thought this whole 'weapons' business was a bit > too fishy. I don't necessarily believe the weapon was an item > either. Care to tell us the name of the person you believe to > be the one who will help Harry? ^-^ >> Rebeka: It's a gut feeling, you know? I'm some sort of writer myself, and my style is quite close to JK Rowling. If so, you better expect a bigger and stunning twist in those last books! :P Anyways, I think is a new character, no already presented character would seem to fill this role. I've got a headache everytime I think of Witch Hunting, I just can't understand why JKR never introduced this theme before. You know, a Witch Hunter would be like a Death Eater to Wizards. A WH hunts wizards and witches and dark creatures (Hum... werewolves, perhaps? ;)) down. LOL Better stop, because I have some very long wacky theories about all this, not all based on cannon... :D Favorite Lines Ariana's entries: > Mrs Weasley and George on prefects: 'I don't believe it! I don't believe it! Oh, Ron, how wonderful! A prefect! That's everyone in the family!' 'What are Fred and I, next-door neighbours?' For some reason, it made me laugh. :) >>> Add Rebeka's name for that one too! :) I keep laughing my a*s off everytime I read it! :) ===== ~Rebeka _______________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail agora com 100MB, anti-spam e antivrus grtis! http://br.info.mail.yahoo.com/ From rebekarg at yahoo.com.br Sat Jul 3 16:14:21 2004 From: rebekarg at yahoo.com.br (=?iso-8859-1?q?Rebeka=20Gomes?=) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 13:14:21 -0300 (ART) Subject: Harry'sPowers (was:SHIP: JKR: Recent Comment on the Shipping Controversy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040703161421.76224.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104229 McMax: > I don't think that the weapon is either a object or a > person per say. The ultimate weapon against evil is > love and Harry will have to feel a great love,true > love, to defeat LV. > > Now parents he doesn't know or a dead godfather are > not enough for this. Love powerful enough to destroy > LV only happens with the one that completes you,a soul > mate, and although we all have our candidates for this > role(coughHermionecough) but that love will be what > ends the Dark Punk for good. Hey, It's Me Again - Rebeka: Argh! You know what? I hate this Moulin Rouge Love Is The Most Powerful Thing. Booooring. :P If there's one power that I think Harry Potter should have, and would be ultimately powerful towards Voldemort (and it's something he can't really understands) is FORGIVENESS. And let's say it fits into some other crazy theory of mine :) ===== ~Rebeka _______________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail agora com 100MB, anti-spam e antivrus grtis! http://br.info.mail.yahoo.com/ From larsonmart at yahoo.com Sun Jul 4 03:07:06 2004 From: larsonmart at yahoo.com (Marty Larson) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 03:07:06 -0000 Subject: Dobby and Hogwarts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104230 As I'm sure many of you are doing, I've been rereading CoS and this time through I was struck by this - Dobby just appears in the Hospital wing while Harry is regrowing his bones and with a crack is gone when he hears someone coming. (Not quoting as I don't have my book handy). As we have read many times, no one is supposed to be able to disparate or apparate within Hogwarts. Is Dobby going to the kitchen to be with other house elves or is the house elf magic so different as not to be ncluded in the Hogwarts restrictions? Just wondering, larsonmart From dzeytoun at cox.net Sun Jul 4 03:16:47 2004 From: dzeytoun at cox.net (dzeytoun) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 03:16:47 -0000 Subject: a boy in search of a father In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104231 > > Jen: From a purely psychological view, Harry seems to be working out > his need for a father-figure with several different men in the > series, each one helping him develop a different aspect of his > character. True. But there is still something missing, a key ingredient if you will, to help all of these things gel. A father figure for Harry might well not be able to help him with all his problems (what father can do that for his son, after all?) but still could provide the crucial point of balance, the emotional touchstone Harry has been lacking. I think the tragedy in the death of Sirius is that Harry had begun to regard Sirius as that touchstone. Arya is quite right that 16 is not an age when most young men feel the need for a father. But what is wanted and what is needed are often not the same thing. Harry has entered a crucial period, and the lack of emotional support and resources could/would make it that much more difficult. So, who could provide that support? Various polls I've seen in other groups seem pretty evenly split between Dumbledore and Lupin. Perhaps Harry will, in the end, grow closer to both of them. Although Harry could continue to do without such support, and might well reject support if it was offered; it would be tragic, and difficult to read, if he HAS to do without it. Dzeytoun From smartone56441070 at aol.com Sun Jul 4 04:17:33 2004 From: smartone56441070 at aol.com (smartone564) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 04:17:33 -0000 Subject: CoS clues to Books 6 & 7 analysis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104232 lostris wrote: > As you mention in your post (fact 7) that Tom Riddle is a half > blood, who becomes Lord Voldemort, and given the news that > Half Blood Prince was considered as a title for what became > CoS - it's not too much of a leap to think that Tom Riddle is the > Half blood prince. Of course JKR's denying that Harry or LV fit > the description tends to slap my theory on the head, however I > wonder......... Don't forget that there is very little that TR has in common with LV. In fact, nearly everyone I can think of (exluding TR/LV's comments), says they are different. DD- TR went under many, powerful magical changes. Dobby warns Harry at the beginning of CoS that the problem that year doesn't have to do with LV, but it did with TR. Therefore, JKR never said the Half Blood Prince was neither Harry nor TR/LV, but just LV. Smart From mhbobbin at yahoo.com Sun Jul 4 04:37:37 2004 From: mhbobbin at yahoo.com (mhbobbin) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 04:37:37 -0000 Subject: Movie PoA Foreshadows Books 6 & 7 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104233 cincimaelder wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/103443 : JK Rowling says that Prisoner of Azkaban director Alfonso Cuaron inadvertantly foreshadowed events from books six and seven in the latest movie. Any thoughts on which parts of PoA foreshadow 6 and 7? mhbobbin writes: In my opinion: I was surprised by 3 bits of mystery in the Books that were reinforced in PoA, and point towards more revelation in Books 6 & 7. 1. Stonehenge: In OoP, there is foreshadowing that we might be headed towards Stonehenge although it is never specifically mentioned. And not, to my knowledge, foreshadowed prior to OoP. In the film, there is a Stonehenge-like set just outside the bridge. The possible Stonehenge references in OoP, include Lucus Malfoy's address in the town that Stonehenge is in, the many references to circles and stones, and the release of the book on the Summer Solstice. 2. Remus: In the books, Remus seems to be fighting a strong emotional bond to Harry. One that is greater than what would be expected from his friendship with James. He shivers when he touches Harry on the shoulder, etc. There's more to Remus than has been revealed. Remus's discussion with Harry in the film focuses more on Lily than James. I was surprised by that and the depth of feeling revealed. There's more to Remus than we yet know and the PoA film seems to strongly reinforce that. 3. Dementors: I think it's debatable in the book PoA to what degree the Dementors have specifically singled out Harry. We know they are sent to attack him in OoP. I have always thought they were aware of Harry specifically, and if given the opportunity, would take him out too. The film PoA seems to reinforce the idea that the Dementors are out to get Harry specifically. And if the Dementors have always been interested in getting Harry, more will have to be revealed in Books 6 and 7. From smartone56441070 at aol.com Sun Jul 4 04:54:05 2004 From: smartone56441070 at aol.com (smartone564) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 04:54:05 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited. Character discussions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104234 Potioncat: > The first post below was cut-and-pasted from up-thread > Kneasy (I think) > There is no evidence that he was particularly bright. By all > accounts the > > Animagus spell doesn't require brains, just practice to get it > right. > > If he was bright, it wouldn't have taken him 12 years to escape. What do you mean by 'it took him'? Sirius never escaped from Azkaban before, because he didn't have a driving need to. LV wasn't active (supposedly dead, since Sirius was caught after GH), the DE's were hiding/ getting caught/ revealing themselves/ etc. The only reason Sirius escaped at all was that he saw Peter (as Scabbers) in the newspaper Fudge brought to him. smartone From meltowne at yahoo.com Sun Jul 4 05:39:02 2004 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 05:39:02 -0000 Subject: FAQs: Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104235 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > vmonte responds: > > vmonte again: > > You're right! The information by the way comes directly from JKR's > website, FAQs. This is a pretty huge mistake isn't it? Odd... > And the website does in fact say Lily first, then James, not the other way as suggested by the original post - the origina poster misquoted the FAQ. Lily came out first because she was killed first. The American editors got it wrong in their first printing, and had James come out first, saying to hand on for his mother. They got it wrong because they thought Harry needed to hear the instructions from his mother - the one who afforded him his protections. From smartone56441070 at aol.com Sun Jul 4 05:28:12 2004 From: smartone56441070 at aol.com (smartone564) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 05:28:12 -0000 Subject: news in OOTP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104236 > Leah: > Most interesting, I > think, is the almost crash in Surrey. Why a report on a disaster that > didn't actually happen? It's not like a near miss on a crowded > passenger plane. Smart responds: Well, at the very top surface of things, it was a slow news day. Also, have you ever seen a helio go out of control (i.e. it loses its tail prop, so both the main prop and the fuselage of the helio spin)? It makes for a great show, as the thing wobbles around like a top. However, I myself don't believes that means much of anything. From sixsunflowers at yahoo.com Sun Jul 4 04:26:59 2004 From: sixsunflowers at yahoo.com (Bill and Diana Sowers) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 04:26:59 -0000 Subject: Patronus / Lily's Patronus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104237 Laurasia: > > She doesn't have any animal parallel descriptors to guide us. > > Hmm... Any ideas? Surely not a doe... Unicorn? McMax: > Being all the Patronus descriptions have always been real animals, > I doubt that Lily had a unicorn. But in the Harry Potter books unicorns are real. They are seen in the Forbidden Forest and used in a Care of Magical Creatures class. I suppose if I were to pick a patronus for Lily it would have to be an animal mother renowned for its fierce protectiveness of her children... even unto death. A mother bear would be ideal but probably not a good symbol of Lily. Where I grew up the small hummingbird was known to kill cats who tried to climb up to its nest... but I don't think this is an animal found in Great Britain... in fact or myth, and it is a very small animal. Bill From mietoesarepink at comcast.net Sat Jul 3 16:56:48 2004 From: mietoesarepink at comcast.net (Maren Gest) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 10:56:48 -0600 Subject: Royalty? References: <8c.ed5ef7e.2e1836b2@aol.com> Message-ID: <000701c4611e$bb60e860$6401a8c0@C3P0> No: HPFGUIDX 104238 Melissa wrote: > It seems odd that the WW is based on Muggle Britain in every BUT royalty. > I think that the closest canon have for the WW acknowledging the Queen is > Fudge stating that he notified his Muggle counterpart of Sirius' escape in > POA. If the Muggle PM knows about the WW then there's a good possiblilty > that the Queen knows as well. (and wouldn't Sir Nick have been knighted > the Sovereign back in his day??) That's a really good point! I sure can't wait for the next book to come out, I'm not sure that the WW has the same royalty laws.. after all they really aren't at all the same world. "Maren Gest" From mietoesarepink at comcast.net Sat Jul 3 16:59:12 2004 From: mietoesarepink at comcast.net (Maren Gest) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 10:59:12 -0600 Subject: Harry will die References: <20040703161217.27304.qmail@web90009.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000d01c4611f$10e28e60$6401a8c0@C3P0> No: HPFGUIDX 104239 Sherry wrote: >I would be highly disappointed, if Harry dies. But if he dies and it's presented as making him happy, I would be disgusted. He will only be 17 at the end of the books, and lots of kids read these books. It would be truly horrible, and absolutely outrageous to tell kids that one of their heroes found it happier to be dead. There is already far too much teenage suicide. It's a tragedy in the real world, and I'd hate to see anything encourage >that. > I agree that it would be disappointing if Harry died. Sorry if I made it sound like Harry would kill himself, I don't think he's the type to do that... but I think it is possible that he will be defeated... If JK does kill Harry off hopefully she does it nicely so it's not just like "LV slashed his wand and Harry was dead." But either way these are by far my fav. books and I can't wait till the next book. "Maren Gest" From alina at distantplace.net Sun Jul 4 06:01:47 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 02:01:47 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Patronus / Lily's Patronus References: Message-ID: <00a701c4618c$64aafe20$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 104240 > Being all the Patronus descriptions have always been real animals, I > doubt that Lily had a unicorn. > I don't see why it should be so. Magical animals are still animals and since Wizards are the only humans who have any kind of relationship with them, why wouldn't they be Patronus forms? It wouldn't surprise me if DD's is a phoenix. It wouldn't surprise me if Cedric's would have been a Unicorn. Just because we haven't seen any magical creature patronuses yet doesn't mean there aren't any. I mean, we've only seen three, that's not exactly a large sample pool. Alina. From mietoesarepink at comcast.net Sat Jul 3 17:08:31 2004 From: mietoesarepink at comcast.net (Maren Gest) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 11:08:31 -0600 Subject: Harry will die References: Message-ID: <002201c46120$5dcc14c0$6401a8c0@C3P0> No: HPFGUIDX 104241 Sue: > Or perhaps it will just end the way some other fantasy series have ended, > with Harry becoming a normal (wizard) boy? Interesting, that's all very possible, but JK doesn't seem to make her stories like most fantasy series, she seems more to write how she wants to. But we won't know until the end of the series. "Maren Gest" From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Sun Jul 4 06:01:38 2004 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 06:01:38 -0000 Subject: Movie PoA Foreshadows Books 6 & 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104242 mhbobbin: > Remus's > discussion with Harry in the film focuses more on Lily than James. I > was surprised by that and the depth of feeling revealed. There's more > to Remus than we yet know and the PoA film seems to strongly reinforce > that. Katie now: Am I correct in saying that there's no Remus-Lily stuff at all in the books? Very possibly I'm forgetting something, but I don't recall him ever mentioning her. Is this JKR's doing, or Steve Kloves? (The conspiracy theorist in me thinks this might be a diversionary tactic to overshadow the Sirius/Lupin subtext. But maybe that's just me.) sincerely hoping that we won't learn about a Remus/Lily affair in book six, Katie From yswahl at stis.net Sun Jul 4 06:14:10 2004 From: yswahl at stis.net (samnanya) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 06:14:10 -0000 Subject: Goyle was not at MOM and is not in Azkaban In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104243 Plinker What is to become of the Potter-Malfoy feud? Now that the trio of Malfoy, Crabb and Goyle are in prison, how will there sons behave now that their famlies have lost their clout? Samnanya Goyle was NOT at the MOM and therefore, unless he was arested in a separate undisclosed incident, is NOT at Azkaban. Also while I am at it, Luna was NOT on the Hogwarts train at the end of oop either. One of my pet theories of Book 6 is that before Harry's sixteenth birthday , Luna's dad will be killed by Goyle Sr. on orders from the dark lord for publishing the original Harry Potter interview with Rita Skeeter. It has been over 25000 posts and noone has ever posted a rebuttal of the above theory. Can anyone do so now ??? From vmonte at yahoo.com Sun Jul 4 06:20:05 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 06:20:05 -0000 Subject: FAQs: Lily died before James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104244 meltowne wrote: And the website does in fact say Lily first, then James, not the other way as suggested by the original post - the origina poster misquoted the FAQ. Lily came out first because she was killed first. The American editors got it wrong in their first printing, and had James come out first, saying to hand on for his mother. They got it wrong because they thought Harry needed to hear the instructions from his mother - the one who afforded him his protections. vmonte responds: The original poster did not misquote. JKR had James, then Lily originally (on website). When she realized that it was wrong she quietly corrected it. You are late in replying to this post. For a period of 24 hours the website had incorrect info. We all saw it... From smartone56441070 at aol.com Sun Jul 4 06:08:50 2004 From: smartone56441070 at aol.com (smartone564) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 06:08:50 -0000 Subject: Dobby and Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104245 Larson once wrote: > As we have read many times, no one is supposed to be able to > disparate or apparate within Hogwarts. Is Dobby going to the > kitchen to be with other house elves or is the house elf magic so > different as not to be ncluded in the Hogwarts restrictions? Don't forget about Fawkes, he can get around too. He managed to give DD the warning he needed to avoid DU (when Arthur is attacked) and took DD.... away.... when DD left the school (as a result of 'Dumbledore's Army'). Smart From n2fgc at arrl.net Sun Jul 4 06:22:48 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 02:22:48 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Getting to Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104246 | From: Eustace_Scrubb | Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 11:10 | Eustace_Scrubb: | Good question. This may be movie contamination in part, but it seems | that the soot and smudges resulting from floo travel is one of the | things that sets the Weasleys' socioeconomically below the | well-groomed Malfoys. In PS/SS, Ron has dirt on his nose (his mother | points it out in the book, Hermione in the movie). It's not stated, | but my guess is that it's left from a floo journey on the way to | King's Cross. I don't remember what the COS book says about the | Weasleys' appearance after going to Diagon Alley. Certainly they and | Harry look quite disshevelled in the movie, especially in contrast to | suave Lucius Malfoy. So I doubt the Malfoys travel by floo powder | very often. [Lee]: Well, Eustace, My Friend, I can't agree with you about the socio-economic thing and floo powder. Here's the deal: One has to be a certain age before one can apparate...something like 17 years old. So that's out for most students. Portkeys are controlled by the MOM and only certain people can charm them to work...like Dd. :-) So, there might be a group portkey or more available to get students and such to Diagon or maybe to some sort of "Safe" zone we don't know about at King's Cross or, even more probable, directly to Platform 9-&-3-Quarters. Now, considering the bit with the age restriction on apparation and that portkeys are controlled (mentioned by Fudge near the end of OOTP), and broomsticks are awfully visible, the only thing left that any witch/wizard can use is...floo powder. So, the whole thing about socio-economic falls apart, IMO. Just more of my musings on this thread which my fried brain started in the first place. Cheers and Grins, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me; | n2fgc at arrl.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 4 07:00:56 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 07:00:56 -0000 Subject: CHAP DISC: Chapter 21, Eye of the Snake - The Kiss In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104247 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Janet Anderson" wrote: > > > 8. Why oh why does the kiss take place off stage? How could JKR > > > *do* > > this to me? > >--------- > > ??who??: > >I think part of it is so that we the readers have very little > > emotional >attachment to the>Cho/Harry relationship. I don't buy > > that a description of a mere kiss is >too>scandelous for the likes > > of Bloosmsbury literature. If (he) falls in love and has that > > mind blowing kiss we all wish for, make no mistake, we'll be there > > for it ... > Janet: > > I think that the reason it takes place off stage is the one given by > Harry during Snape's occlumency lesson: It's private. No one but > the participants thereof know the exact details. > asian_lovr2: I completely agree, first and foremost this is private. But there are practical considerations too, at least from an author's stand point. How do you write the kiss without it becoming like a cheap sulty romance novel. I mean what can you really say about a kiss that doesn't involve moisture, pulsing, throbbing loins, heaving breast, crushing bodies, sweating, tingling, etc.... The 'Fade to Black' in situations like this is classic novel, movie, and TV fair, or at least it was up until our more recent 'anything goes' world of entertainment. A world in which most 13 year olds are protrayed as more knowledgable and experience in the ways of love than most real world adults. Personally, I like Harry's version of love, and I think far far more kids can relate to Harry than can relate to teen relationships typically portrayed in the media. Let's take some examples- --- OotP - assorted Quote relating to Harry & Cho ---- The Kiss- Harry felt a burning desire to run from the room and, at the same time, a complete inability to move his feet. He could not think. A tingling sensation was spreading throughout him, paralysing his arms, legs, and brain. (Note: that was before the kiss) The Question- She walked away. Harry stood staring at her, his brain working frantically. Then something clunked into place. "Er.. d'you want to come into Hogsmeade with me on Valentines day?" The Date- Harry's feet seemed to be too big for his body as he walked toward her, and he was suddenly horribly aware of his arms and how stupid they looked swinging at his sides. - - - End Quotes - - - Now that's reality, complete awkwardness tempered only by utter cluelessness. Now THAT's a real teenager. By the way, for those who didn't notice, that 'kiss' took nearly half an hour. "Harry returned to the common room HALF AN HOUR LATER to find Hermione and Ron in the best seats by the fire;..." Note that the Room of Requirements is on the 7th floor, same floor as the entrance to Gryffindor Tower. It certainly didn't take Harry a half hour to walk down the hall. Cho crying or not, that must have been some kiss. > Janet continues: > > Notice that the description of the tea shop where Harry and Cho go > on Valentine's Day is far from complimentary and the person > (Roger Davies?) who *is* on stage, audibly kissing his girlfriend at > the next table, just looks tacky. ..., the relationship between > Harry and Cho isn't real and doesn't bear close inspection. > > > Janet Anderson asian_lovr2: I think Harry's description of the tea shop is just another indicator of what a 'clueless boy' he is. Like many boys his age, he has discovered desire and attraction, but hasn't made the leap to romantic relationships yet. Sadly, many men go a lifetime and never quite make that leap. And, like many heroes, Harry is still a bit innocent. He is aware of desire and attraction, but doesn't have a clue what it means or what to do about it yet. Now Fred, George, and Roger Davies, they know what to do about it, but I suspect their actions are somewhat self-serving, again, while they are far more confident and sophisticated than Harry, I don't think they have really made the leap to true romantic relationship yet either. For what it's worth. Steve/asian_lovr2 From vmonte at yahoo.com Sun Jul 4 07:21:36 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 07:21:36 -0000 Subject: Revisiting The Boy when He Lived In-Reply-To: <20040703143942.29232.qmail@webmail30.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104248 Amey wrote: 2. Also if James is not there, how come he came after Lily during Priory? Again where did the man in the scene vanish (because even if in the movie James is not seen, Harry hears some voice during Dementor training. I don't remember if the man is there in movie scene or not)? If he was killed who killed him, because LV can't have killed him. If he was Wormtail, then it all fits, as there is no reason to kill him. But if it was somebosy else, and somebody other than LV killed him, why didn't the other person try and finish LV's work of killing little Harry? Or was he so frightened at seeing the spell backfire that he ran away? So there seems to be some discrepancy between the movie scene, harry's memory and the Priory order. Which one is the most canon? (i mean which one should we take as the most perfect as all are canon :)) vmonte responds: In the SS movie we only see a flashback of GH with Lily in it. In the PoA movie you never hear James yelling for Lily ro run. All you do hear are Lily's screams. It could be that the voice that Harry hears (and believes) to be his father is really someone else. James was killed before Lily. And he was definitely killed by Voldemort's wand. It doesn't necessarily mean that he was killed at GH. He could have died minutes or hours before GH. There is something very odd about the GH attack. I've reread the begining of SS/PS (the scene with DD & MM in front of the Dursley house). There is something strange about the comments made there as well (Kneasy pointed some out previously). It almost seems as though DD knew when the attack was going to happen, and began preparations for that event in advance. He does not however know exactly what happened inside GH. Minerva waits outside the Dursley's house all day, why? DD then comments that he should have known she would be there, why? DD did not ask her to be there. So was she close to the family? Her reaction to their deaths is odd? She seems more upset by it's implications than for the people involved. I may be reading this wrong though. (I come from a culture that is much more emotionally open.) Is it possible that MM's main concern is only for Harry? If so why? Is it because his safety is paramount to the WW's survival? Or something else? One thing we do know is that MM has never been to the Dursley house. She is looking at a map and reading street signs to get there. DD on the other hand, seems to already know. Is it preplanning, or was he previously there? What is DD's watch all about? Why does he say that Hagrid is late? By my estimation Hagrid is about 24 hours late. What happened? DD states that Hagrid is late, but DD just got to the Dursleys himself. It's also interesting that Hagrid is the one chosen to deliver Harry. Hagrid is also the one who brings Harry back into the WW. Just some thoughts, vivian From vmonte at yahoo.com Sun Jul 4 07:35:14 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 07:35:14 -0000 Subject: Patronus / Lily's Patronus In-Reply-To: <00a701c4618c$64aafe20$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104249 Alina wrote: I don't see why it should be so. Magical animals are still animals and since Wizards are the only humans who have any kind of relationship with them, why wouldn't they be Patronus forms? It wouldn't surprise me if DD's is a phoenix. It wouldn't surprise me if Cedric's would have been a Unicorn. Just because we haven't seen any magical creature patronuses yet doesn't mean there aren't any. I mean, we've only seen three, that's not exactly a large sample pool. vmonte responds: I would also like to see what form Ron's patronus would take. vivian - Who is rereading CoS and is amazed to see how much of Ron's dialog was given away to Hermione and Hagrid in the CoS movie. From alina at distantplace.net Sun Jul 4 07:37:51 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 03:37:51 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Patronus / Lily's Patronus References: Message-ID: <00e101c46199$d0348550$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 104250 > Alina wrote: > > I don't see why it should be so. Magical animals are still animals > and since Wizards are the only humans who have any kind of > relationship with them, why wouldn't they be Patronus forms? It > wouldn't surprise me if DD's is a phoenix. It wouldn't surprise me if > Cedric's would have been a Unicorn. Just because we haven't seen any > magical creature patronuses yet doesn't mean there aren't any. I > mean, we've only seen three, that's not exactly a large sample pool. > > vmonte responds: > > I would also like to see what form Ron's patronus would take. No brainer - Ron's is definately a spider. I'd bet anything on it. Think about it, if he thinks nothing's scarier than a spider, then only a spider is sufficient to protect him. Alina, whose husband's imaginary friend was Freddy Kreuger for the exact reason described above. From vmonte at yahoo.com Sun Jul 4 08:17:13 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 08:17:13 -0000 Subject: 24 hours again In-Reply-To: <002301c4612f$e9a0c040$184a6d51@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104251 Ffred wrote: Would anyone have been too worried about a stray rat in the Hog's Head!? And indeed, if it was Peter, why would [unknown] who threw the eavesdropper out have been troubled about there being a trusted friend of Dumbledore outside in the corridor? But here's just another small thought, following on from the suggestion last time of there being a spell which induces a Seer to prophesy - maybe it was the eavesdropper who did the spell... vmonte responds: Speaking of the Hog's Head, the Lexicon has some interesting thoughts about Aberforth. Is he really the guy that runs the bar at the HH? Harry recognizes the bartender. Is it because of Moody's Order photograph? Why is the bartender so grouchy, even Snape-like? (I know he's not Snape because of the way the bartender checks out Harry.) MM & DD were/are both Transiguration teachers but have yet to use those skills. Or have they? Could Aberforth be DD? Did DD have to time-turn PoA style? Did he have to go back a few hours to fix something that happened at that party? I think there is more to what happened at that Order party. Something pivotal happened there. Was PP recruited by Voldemort there? There is something also important about Snape's worst memory. Was the night of the OWLS exam the night of Sirius's prank? Harry recalls that Lupin was looking strange in the penseive memory, and wondered if the full moon was approaching--was he right? I think that something happened at GH that will surprise us. Who we think we hear is not who we hear... Old photographs, and old memories will become more important. Ron is also going to have new memories to explore in the next book. The brain has to be someone important to be kept at the DoM. Was it Godric's Gryffindor's brain? We kind of need some back ground on the split between the original 4. This seems like a good way to get some back story. Will Ron put these memories in a penseive for Harry and Hermione to look at? vivian From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sun Jul 4 09:25:28 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 09:25:28 -0000 Subject: Human's Emotions vs. Dogs (Re: Sirius revisited) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104252 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brenda M." wr= ote: > > Whohoo! The Neuroscientist comes to the rescue! > > I'm afraid I must correct you, Kneasy. Emotions are not simple at > all. I must agree with Nora. The best example of how emotions are "a > rather different kettle of fish than thoughts and even intelligence > (Nora's words)" > snipping > This leads me to believe that when Dementors are sensing human > emotions, they are sensing these extracranial magnetic fields. But > they can't really feed on human thoughts and intelligence, if they > could then they will be Legilimens, no? Human's cognitive functions > operate on a "higher level" than emotions, I believe. I'm not a > cognitive psychologist, but safe to assume that our thoughts are much > harder to be sensed. That is my understanding of it anyways. I'm not > too sure if JKR thought of it that way as well. > > As for the differences between human and dog emotions, I haven't > studied other animals extensively so I can't give you any conclusive > proof ? but I can suspect this much. Emotions are very closely > related to memory and learning. > > Does this answer your question, Kneasy? Or have I confused you even > more? I'll be more than happy to elaborate on this if you like, just > let me know. No problem. As a biological scientist myself, the long words hold no terrors. And I'd be a mug to dispute with a specialist outside my own field. The nub of the matter is, does it apply in this case? My understanding is that Animagi change physical form but retain their human mental faculties. Now we could get into all sorts of fascinating discussions about the locations in the brain for the centres responsible for memory, emotion and compare the structures of human and dog brain and come to the conclusion that they are not comparable. No arguments there. But do you think that JKR has done this or is it more likely that she's using some license? The latter I think - otherwise Rita's columns would be reduced to "Have you heard the latest buzz?" Maybe I presented my argument badly ("the emotions are simple") in combination with the intractable habit of being provocative. The point I wanted to get across was that emotions do not depend on intellect (though control of outward manifestations may) but are responses at a much more fundamental or at least different, level. But in a physical transformation from human to dog where original brain function, including intelligence and memory, are retained, it would be very odd if the emotions were preferentially excised and dog emotions replaced them. Stags and dogs hate and fear wolves. A very basic emotion, yet James and Sirius romp over the countryside with one. Which emotions are being expressed - the animal, or are the human ones of friendship and protectiveness at work? Kneasy From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Sun Jul 4 09:59:33 2004 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 09:59:33 -0000 Subject: Harry & Voldemort, wands and similarities/differences In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104253 "Diana" wrote: > > Fourth, Harry kills Tom Riddle by 'killing' the diary. Maybe the way to kill Voldemort is by not attacking him directly, but by > > attacking his source of power which is separate from him? I can't remember anything Voldemort might own that would be considered a source of power to him, but it's an idea, anyway. > > Sixth, Fawkes saves Harry's life with his tears just moments before Harry dies from the basilisk venom. Maybe Fawkes [or some other magical object/person/spell] will do this again and save Harry after he suffers a mortal wound that would otherwise kill him without this aid? Whether this miraculous cure would happen before or after Harry defeats Voldemort is anyone's guess. Julie ["jastrangfeld"] replied: > Well, I am wondering now about the "Phoenix Song" and how they both have the same feather from Fawkes in their wands. And the wands can't attack each other, without one being incredibly stronger. What kind of connections can you draw from this? I'd like to hear more opinions. I remember reading something about wands really being a point where the power is just concentrated. So what exactly do the feathers do. I mean if a feather from the same Phoenix doesn't want to attack itself . . . Diana L.: I'm thinking that Harry and Voldemort both having wands with feathers from Fawkes suggests how connected they really are, more so than they even know, especially since Fawkes gave only two feathers. They are connected by fate and ultimately must battle to the death. It seems poetic justice to me that both their wands contain feathers from Fawkes, the loyal pet of the only wizard Voldemort every feared and the wizard who witnessed the prophecy and has guarded Harry's life since hearing it. Dumbledore may have hoped [or known?] that Harry (being *the one* in the prophecy after Voldemort's attack) would have ended up with the other wand with Fawkes's feather because he knew that those wands would meet again one day. Harry having a wand that would at least give him a fighting chance if he and Voldemort cast a spell against each other at the same time is a bonus and could have been part of fate's plan from the beginning. As for Harry being able to force those beads of light back into Voldemort's wand...I believe that this indicates that Harry is a more powerful wizard than Voldemort, but he just hasn't reached his full potential yet. I would guess that the magic item in the wand focuses and directs the magic inside the wizard so that spells can be amplified and directed to a specific target. How strong the spells are depend entirely upon the level of power within the wizard casting the spell. I would also speculate that the magic element [all from living creatures - unicorn hair, phoenix feather, dragron heartstring, etc.] inside the wand chooses an owner based upon it's own compatibility with that wizard. Fawkes is very compatible with Harry based upon their various interactions throuhout the books. Fawkes actually LIKES Harry. As for Voldemort having the other wand, well both he and Harry are similar in may ways.... Harry and Tom Riddle/Voldemort are *a lot* alike beyond their muggle backgrounds and jet black hair. Both have spent their early childhood years living in a harsh environment they detest. I don't know how Riddle was treated in the orphanage he lived in, but I'm guessing it was not great otherwise why would he hate it so much? We know Harry found out he was a wizard when he got his letter from Hogwarts and I'd be shocked if Riddle didn't find out the same way. Both never knew their parents. Harry and Voldemort are both very angry deep down inside. We got to see Harry unleash his long-bottled-up anger at the injustice of his circumstances several times in OotP, most especially at the end. Harry keeps his anger in check usually, but it's always under the surface and available at the slightest push. This is why JKR writes repeatedly about a powerful anger surging through him as his knee- jerk reaction to many different events, whether overhearing insults against Hermione or feeling left out of the loop or facing the man who he believed killed his parents. Harry gets angry, a lot. Voldemort also gets angry at anything that doesn't go his way, from receiving incorrect info to failing to kill Harry to feeling forgotten by his DEs. The difference between Harry and Voldemort, so far, is what Harry does with his anger. Harry mostly yells, then calms down and shoves the anger back down inside. Harry doesn't torture or kill people when he's angry....but Harry asking Hedwig to peck Hermione and Ron until they gave him answers, and his later satisfaction at seeing the cuts Hedwig has inflicted upon them strikes me as a dangerous Voldemort-like way to act out upon his anger. Voldemort gets angry and people are tortured and/or killed. Maybe Harry will have to finally unleash his deep resevoir of anger against Voldemort in the end in order to kill him? For differences between them, the biggest is that Harry has the capacity to love and be loved in return. Voldemort loves no one and no one loves him, fears him, yes, loves him no. Harry can also feel compassion, sympathy and pity, which Voldemort can't or just refuses to. Another major difference is that Voldemort is terrified of dying and Harry is not. In fact, Harry has embraced the idea of death several times and actually been surprised when he doesn't die. On one occasion, Harry even welcomed death [when possessed by Voldemort at the end of OotP] because the pain of living was worse. Welcoming death is something Voldemort will NEVER do. All their differences are emotional and come from how they feel about other people around them. Voldemort sees all other beings as either his servants or his enemies. Harry sees other people like an average person does - a mixture of friends, enemies, strangers, aquaintances, pests, etc., but with a great gift for observation and reading body language. Julie ["jastrangfeld"] again: > Along those lines (wand lines), I posted this the other day, and still > haven't seen a response . . . > > Is it at all possible that Voldemort used Lily's "excellent for charm > work" wand to try to kill Harry? And that's why the rebounded spell > did not come out in GoF? I guess I should say I know that the > reference of the charm wand was actually reference to Lily's first > wand, however, it would seem to stand to reason that a subsequent wand would also be "charmed"? > In this, could it also be that the wand belonging to Lily would indeed backfire as it would "know" her son? > Perhaps there was a struggle of some kind and then Voldemort had to > grab a nearby wand. It seems we've seen evidence of other struggles > where wizards and witches use other's wands. And then there's the > reference where another wizards wand can never be used as effectively > as your own? Diana L. This is an interesting idea, but I couldn't see it being true. Several times throughout the series another character has had their own wand used against them (Sirius using Snape's own wand to suspend the unconscious Snape along the hidden tunnel in PoA, for just one example]. If wands "knew" their owners and their owners' relatives and refused to perform or softened spells against that former owner and their family if used against them, then I couldn't see how used wands would ever be sellable. Most wizards wouldn't want a wand that could possibly choke up on them if they unknowingly faced the wand's previous owner or family member in a duel. Especially given the previous wizarding war during Voldemort's time when unknown wizards were a true unknown danger. I don't see wands being intelligent in that regard, I'd say they were just most-compatible with their owner (or owners, for a previously owned wand) and compatible to lesser degrees with other wizards it would not have chosen as it's owners. Someone else asked this, but I'm going to ask it here as well. Why is it assumed on the list that Lily had more than one wand? Granted, Olivander said that he remembered Harry's parents when they came in to buy their "first wands", but that use of 'first' doesn't mean there was ever a second visit for either to buy another wand. The first could mean just that, their very first wand at the age of 11. Has there been any mention of Harry's parents having had more than one wand? Oooh, sudden inspiration! What if Ginny's used wand was once Lily's wand? Wouldn't that be interesting? Nearly impossible, but an interesting speculation for fun nonetheless. ;) After all we have no idea what happened to Harry's parents' wand after they were killed. I would be very surprised if the Magical Catastrophe Squad (or whatever their called) hadn't removed James' and Lily's wands from the scene before the muggle police came to investigate their deaths and the destruction of their house. As for the rebounded killing curse that ripped Voldemort from his body, I can offer a few simple reasons that it didn't kill him. He directed this curse directly at Harry through his wand in a thin beam from his wand tip. Well, when it hit Harry's forehead and bounced off, the bounce was not returned in the same concentrated beam, but bounced back like a waterdrop bounces off an umbrella - in a spray pattern. When it radiated back it was spread out and only a part of it hit Voldemort (a large part, but not quite all of it), which, combined with Voldemort's own spell preparations to prevent his own death, resulted in Voldemort's body dying but his essence and intellect [I'd hesitate to use the word soul in his case] surviving. I'm speculating, partly based on what Dumbledore has said about this subject and some of my own ideas, that Harry didn't die from the curse because of his mother's love for him. Her sacrifice of her own life in the hopes of sparing Harry and her immediate proximity to Harry upon her death wove a spell around Harry that protects him from harm from Voldemort. Whether Lily actually cast a spell [a shield charm upon Harry using that great-for-charm-work wand, maybe?] as she waited for Voldemort to hunt them down, we don't know, yet. To wildy speculate further, maybe the spell Lily cast to protect Harry requires the life of the one casting it in order to work? Lily would rather die than see Voldemort kill her child, so I could easily see Lily giving her life for this powerful protection spell for Harry. As Lily and James most likely knew about the prophecy and Harry's importance to the wizarding world and they went into hiding because of it, maybe Lily performed some sort of spell to protect Harry long before Voldemort ever found them? The books, through Dumbledore, emphasize choice over destiny or fate or blood, but I don't think this contradicts the prophecy about Harry and Voldemort. In the prophecy, either Harry or Voldemort could win in the end, but who ultimately wins will be decided by what choices each makes leading up to the final confrontation. Harry, using the emotions Voldemort doesn't have [or refuses to acknowledge?] will make very different choices than Voldemort right up until the final duel. And Harry's choices will be the better ones in the end, IMO. Diana L. From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Jul 4 10:05:07 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 10:05:07 -0000 Subject: Human's Emotions vs. Dogs (Re: Sirius revisited) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104254 > > Potioncat responded: > > But an animagus is supposed to keep his "human self" (I don't > recall > > a good word for this) as opposed to someone who is transfigured > into > > an animal. In that case the animal nature takes over. So the > > Animagus Black Dog should still have had human emotions. > > > Bren again: > > Well... in my original post # 104209, I was merely answering Kneasy's > question about how human (a self-regarding animal) and dog emotions > are different. Normal dog that is. > > As for Animagus-animals (AAs), I have no clue how it works. I don't > think it's very clear from the books how Animagus Transfiguration > actually works. But I always thought that AAs were more close to > animals than humans. Possibly from Lupin's comment in PoA, 260, UK: snipping Potioncat: I don't have the book, I think it was the book about magical creatures (Does anyone know which one I mean?) But it makes reference to what happens if a person is transfigured into an animal rather than being an animagus. My point is that as an animagus Black should have had human thoughts and emotions. So his comment about the dementors not recognising him in dog form is either incorrect (but sincere) or a lie. (Or a third possibility: I'm wrong.) As I recall, Kneasy was discussing Black's escape from Azkaban at the time and using this as one of the questionable parts of the escape. (I'm wondering if Black had more help than he realised. The catspaw portion of Kneasy's theory.) DD recognised McGonagall as a cat because (he says) she was too stiff for a normal cat. The "cat" was also able to manipulate a map and read a street sign. I know these cat examples don't speak to emotions, but I'm using here as an example of ways in which the Animagi are different from animals. Potioncat From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Jul 4 10:19:08 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 10:19:08 -0000 Subject: Boggart/ Patronus Musings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104255 Alla wrote: > Well, JKR said in the March Chat that Snape's Patronus and Boggart > will be important to the plot. > > I used to think that Snape's Patronus will be Dumbledore. > > I am now thinking that Snape's Patronus could be Lily (if Snape > indeed had feelings for her) and Snape's Boggart could be James. > > > As a member of SAD DENIAl I am hoping that we will get a chance to > actually SEE Sirius patronus some day. :o) > > I have no clue about James, though. I think it will be very important > to the plot too. > > Peter? Well, I despise him therefore I don't really think that he > deserves to have a Patronus. :) > Potioncat: I was wondering, back when I read JKR's answer about Snape's Patronus and Boggart, whether she meant that to tell us would give too much away about Snape or whether we would actually see them in later books. And while she's said we'll get everything we need in the next two books, I doubt we'll get everything we want. My vote would be DD for Snape's Patronus (giant bumblebee as I doubt it could be a lemondrop :-) But I don't think it would be James for the Boggart. It could be a Werewolf or it could relate to being a DE. I wonder if Black's Patronus would have been a stag for James or something to represent James' father. His Boggart might have been a Dementor. And I'll bet Peter cannot conjure a Patronus because I'm not sure he feels he has a Patron. Potioncat From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Sun Jul 4 06:51:45 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 4 Jul 2004 06:51:45 -0000 Subject: About Sirius, Wormtail, Snape, Draco Message-ID: <20040704065145.32276.qmail@webmail8.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104256 >>>>>>>griffin782002: I have my own thoughts about the veil. J.K.R. has used many elements from ancient mythologies for her books. For example, centaurs were wise and play an important part in Greek myths. One of them acted as a teacher for many mythical heroes. Also the ancient Greeks believed that a three-headed dog, known as Cerberus, guarded the entrance to the Underworld, which they called Hades. There are myths which tell the story of a hero that for some reason has to 'visit' the Underworld. Hercules has to go there in order to 'borrow' Cerberus for one of his twelve tasks. Orpheus, a mythicmeal micisian went to take back his dead wife. I wonder if the veil is a similar kind of entrance. They had necromancies, I have visited such a place years ago. I think the world of the dead is a mystery and perhaps that was the reason why most of the people around it were affraid of it. Amey: Yes, it is a very good point, but I think I read somewhere JKR saying that Sirius is absolutely dead, and can't come back.( Sorry, can't remember where OI read it). But it is possible that he might come back in some form or might at least communicate with Harry (mirror here). Sue: Good point. Crabbe and Goyle are basically just Draco's sidekicks anyway. They'll just do what he tells them. And I can see him working for revenge in the next couple of books, perhaps even being recruited by LV. Perhaps - who knows? - in the middle of it all, his eyes will be opened and he'll see he's been had. Possibly his father will betray him, or LV will want him to do something that will get him killed. Isn't it fun speculating? :-) However much I like Draco being killed, I think it will be better if Lucius dies serving or (not-serving-prperly) LV, and that opens his eyes. It won't endear Harry to him, i hope (else we won't have any juicy hits like Hermione gave him in PoA, and more ambushes in train), but at least he might come to the good side (am I seeing a future Snape here?) >>>>>>Amey: >>>>>>> So there seems to be some discrepancy between the movie scene, >>>>>>>harry's memory and >>>>>>>the Priory order. Which one is the most canon? (i mean which one >>>>>>>should we take as the most perfect as all are canon :)) >>>>>>Tim: >>>>>>On JKR's website, there is an explaintion the Priory error in her >>>>>>Books FAQ (click on the paperclips) Amey again: That only states the correct order, and also the spells coming out don't give us the timing. I was talking about that, not the actaul Lily-First-James-Later-Or-Vice-Versa thing. Sorry, it was getting a long post and I wrapped up the point. What I meant was that there seems to be some doubt that the man was not James. >>>>>>Amey: >>>>>>> 3. Who told Potters so that they knew "LV was after them long >>>>>>>before" (PoA- Prof McGonall)? >>>>>>Tim: >>>>>>The Prophecy said ."born to those who have thrice defied him" so by the time of the prophecy or Harry's birth his parents were on LV's radar. Amey again: Well, it must have been hard to keep track of the times you defied LV. And as we know, Longbottoms also fitted the bill. So some information must have come DD's way. Also I am wondering what made them defy LV three times? (They emerged successfull 3 times, must be very powerful and brilliant). It seems he was trying wither very hard to get them or get them on their side. Hagrid wonders why LV didn't try recruiting Potters, so he must be particularly eager to kill them. Longbottoms figure, because they were Aurors and fighting him. But Potters were not in MoM (as far as we know). So that means they must be very much active in the Order (this fits the great respect they had in WW). Also, DD knew for a long time somebody close to them was passing information to LV, why very close to Potters? Just because it was Wormtail? Why was he recruited by LV? He doesn't seem to be very bright, his only plus point was that he was close to Potters (who were in Order, I agree, but is that only criterion?). I doubt DD trusting him with important information any more than we can trust Crabe or Goyle. I can see how he came in the Order (being one of Marauders), but a spy? He must have some hidden abilities. And one more point to ponder about Snape... he knew somebody close to Potters was passing information, there were only 3 persons really close to them.. its only a matter of raising their sleeve... all this doesn't speak highly of his spying abilities. Because we know he was spying for DD for a long time. Or was he also blinded by the fact that it was James and Sirius who were in danger? He would have loved all of them killed and any one of them as spy for LV would be his idea for christmas present. I don't think PP figured in his revenge anywhere. PP seems only a peripheral figure in the rivalry. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Sun Jul 4 07:03:01 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 4 Jul 2004 07:03:01 -0000 Subject: Some Serious points in favour of Sirius Message-ID: <20040704070301.29104.qmail@webmail30.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104257 ?>>>>>>> Melpomene: >>>>>>> I've said since PoA came out I couldn't like or trust that >>>>>>character >>>>>>> no matter how much I tried, and I did try. Even JKR found him dead >>>>>>> useless in the end. (Pun intended.) Amey: Well I will state at first that sirius figures very high on my list of favourite characters, (of course there is competition for the top spot between DD and Hermione :)). So I am going to defend Sirius... 1. Sirius was trusted highly by DD, he was a member of Order originally (though wormtail was also a member, so I can't think that counts much). 2. Whatever happens, he is Godfather of Harry, and whatever time he gets to fulfill his duties, he has done that beutifully. He gives Harry support when it is needed, provides him with a mirror (I wonder if it is Marauders' product, highly possible) when he knows Harry needs to talk to him. The gift of Firebolt is his way of showing his affection (and not apology for attacking Ron as some suggested). He is caring and even though he hates Snape, he is shocked to hear that Occlumency sessions have stopped. He is the one person who gives proper news to Harry in summer through letters. 3. He was arrogant, but so was James, even Snape (remmeber him calling Lily "Mudblood"?). But he wasn't given chance to come out of it by continuous hatred of Snape. I think living with Dementors (who suck all happy thoughts) left him with some sad feelings overall. 4. As for the answer to the question why he went after wormtail after he found Potters dead is simple, given by DD. All knew Sirius was the Potters' SK, so only way to convince all is to get hold of the real SK and force him to tell the truth. After living in Azkaban for 12 years, he could only think of revenge (thanks to Dementors). 5. The age he went into prison (mostly around 22), is not one when you are matured but starting the process, if you are living without much responsiblity (I can tell being the same age, and having not much responsibility being everybody's kid brother). Sirius was living alone, with only his friends for support, and no family, even no girlfriends (at least from what we have heard till this point, though I wonder how he got through the school without a girlfriend... him being so handsome, top of class, one of the most popular guys in year... I mean a mixture of Cedric and Fred-George). So he had very less time to know what is responsibility. I was going to add this to last post, but being Sirius, I think it got a bit long :), so thanks for bearing with me so far. Now I think I should sign off before it gets too long. But I will be back with more points for Sirius... Amey, who thinks that after all this argument on my point, JKR should not come up with something in 6 and 7 which blasts my whole theory... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aboutthe1910s at yahoo.com Sun Jul 4 07:09:34 2004 From: aboutthe1910s at yahoo.com (aboutthe1910s) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 07:09:34 -0000 Subject: Significance of Names: Ginevra, Hermione, the Weasleys in General Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104258 I've been thinking a lot about the significance of names lately, particularly the name Ginevra, as that's a relatively new piece of information. Taking the name in context with the other Weasley's names, I'm assuming that, if there is an allusion here, the allusion is to Ginevra, the princess of Scotland from the opera Ariodante. (The other only other real option I can think of would be the portrait by da Vinci.) Anyway, while I hesitate to make too much of the allusion, it seems like fun discussion. The story goes like this (I'm copying and pasting a summary off the internet because I am lazy): "The opera is set in Edinburgh, where Ginevra, object of Polinesso's unwelcome attentions, is willingly to be betrothed to Ariodante. Polinesso, meeting Ariodante, claims to be loved by Ginevra; in proof he lets the latter see him enter Ginevra's room, admitted by Dalinda, who loves him. Lurcanio, Ariodante's brother, who has overheard the encounter, urges revenge, but Ariodante instead attempts to kill himself. Lurcanio explains what he knows to the King, who disowns Ginevra. Ariodante, who has survived, is told by Dalinda what has really happened. In a tournament, Polinesso is killed by Lurcanio and Ariodante appears, saving Ginevra from the death to which she has been condemned and, with Dalinda, putting matters right." Then there's Hermione, daughter of Helen (of Troy) and Menelaus, who was abandoned by her mother at age nine, later promised by her father to two men (Neoptolemus and Orestes), and ended up marrying Neoptolemus, but was unhappy because she was jealous of his concubine (Andromache). Then Orestes had Neoptolemus killed and married Hermione. Thus far I see no connection, but I have heard a simplified version of the story used to promote the idea of Harry and Ron both being in love with Hermione. Anyway, back to the Weasley's: It's been pointed out before that there are an awful lot of allusions to royalty when it comes to the Weasleys: Arthur, William, Charles, and George most notably. While everyone already knows this, I just thought it interesting to bring up in conjunction with the new title of book six (which it probably already has been). Though as far as I can tell, the half blood thing couldn't fit with any of the Weasleys. And anyway, Harry and James both fit the pattern too. a From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sun Jul 4 08:59:02 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 04:59:02 -0400 Subject: Draco Malfoy References: <1088913000.6144.2266.m16@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001201c461a5$27b75180$bfc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 104259 Plinker: "What is to become of the Potter-Malfoy feud? Now that the trio of Malfoy, Crabb and Goyle are in prison, how will there sons behave now that their famlies have lost their clout?" First post so I hope I'm doing this right and not offending anyone. I have to say, some of you folks have thought processes I cannot even fathom! I certainly enjoy reading all the theories and speculations but I don't think I'm ever going to be able to add much other than cold, hard, straight-out-of-the-book facts. The only DE we know has been sent to Azkaban is Malfoy's father. Malfoy didn't say "you can't land our fathers in prison" he said "my father."(OotP) Some of them, as well as Bella, may have escaped before DD arrived. Also, Goyle wasn't one of the names Malfoy was shouting orders to, was he even in the Death Chamber? Now that the Dementors have shifted loyalties - if they ever were loyal to the MOM - I don't expect any of the DE will be in Azkaban for long. Draco Malfoy says this very thing near the end of the last chapter "The Dementors have left Azkaban. Dad and the others'll be out in no time." One of the things jumping out at me on my current read through the books (I've lost track of how many times this is) is just how much Draco knows. He drops little hints of things all the way through the books. In the last chapter of GF, something HP seems to ignore or, at least, not comment on, is Malfoy's "I told you not to hang around with riff-raff like this! Too late now, Potter. They'll be the first to go, now the Dark Lord's back!" Malfoy knew it, when Fudge wouldn't even admit it (although I am quite certain he knew it to be true but was too concerned with his postition at the MOM to want to admit it), and when, upon returning to school in Sept, HP realized a good portion of the rest of the students didn't believe LV had returned. I think Malfoy, Sr has been a little incautious about what he says in front of his kid. Or at least doesn't check to make sure Draco isn't eavesdropping before having this intersting conversations. Draco knows too much. It will be interesting to see where his story goes in the next two books. I've always though, in the end, Harry is going to have to save Draco somehow. Well there, I probably should have stopped after the first paragraph. Cathy From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Sun Jul 4 10:34:41 2004 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 10:34:41 -0000 Subject: Goyle was not at MOM and is not in Azkaban In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104260 > Plinker: > What is to become of the Potter-Malfoy feud? Now that the > trio of Malfoy, Crabb and Goyle are in prison, how will > there sons behave now that their famlies have lost their > clout? > > Samnanya > Goyle was NOT at the MOM and therefore, unless he was > arested in a separate undisclosed incident, is NOT at > Azkaban. > Also while I am at it, Luna was NOT on the Hogwarts train > at the end of oop either. > One of my pet theories of Book 6 is that before Harry's > sixteenth birthday , Luna's dad will be killed by Goyle Sr. > on orders from the dark lord for publishing the original > Harry Potter interview with Rita Skeeter. > It has been over 25000 posts and noone has ever posted a > rebuttal of the above theory. Can anyone do so now ??? Diana L. Luna is not in the same compartment as Harry, Hermione, Ron, Neville and Ginny, but that does not mean she's not on the train. She could just be in a different compartment. Since Luna is often described as in a dream world of her own, I could see Luna just finding a comfortable place to sit down and read her magazine and not caring if she was in a train car with Harry and the others. There was no mention of her character at all for the previous four books, which would indicate that she sticks to herself mostly. *If* she's not on the train, her dad might have picked her up from school in order to start that vacation immediately so they can finish their trip before she goes back to school next year. It obviously wasn't important to JKR to mention Luna as not being or definitely being on the train, which may indicate that Luna's importance to the story may have passed. It's possible Voldemort could want revenge against the publisher of the Quibbler because of Harry's interview, but what would be the point? The Daily Prophet printed the same interview later, so would Voldemort then try to kill everyone who worked at the Daily Prophet as well? I think Voldemort knew that he couldn't stay under the radar forever. His return was bound to be discovered and *believed* eventually. Besides, I think he'll blame the entire interview on, who else?, Harry himself for giving it in the first place. I could see Voldemort somehow running into Rita Skeeter, though, which would be the end of Rita Skeeter.... We don't know for sure that Goyle wasn't one of the DEs arrested at the MoM, because Harry didn't know the identity of all the DEs that were there. He knew there was a DE named Goyle [and correctly concluded that this was Gregory Goyle's father] because he heard his name at the graveyard at the end of GoF. But Goyle had a hood on then and Harry didn't see his face. All the DE's in the MoM were wearing masks as well, though several of them removed their masks during the chase for the prophecy ball. If Goyle wasn't arrested at the MoM, then he would still have to go 'on the lam', so to speak, to avoid being arrested, because Harry named him as a DE and the WW will believe Harry's story now because of Voldemort's personal appearance inside the MoM. Voldemort pretty much hates everyone, so he could be expected to go after anyone who even slightly pisses him off or gets in his way or just walks by him at the wrong time. I can't see him singling anyone out in particular for his wraith, other than Harry and Dumbledore, when anyone will do including his own DEs and followers. Diana L. From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Jul 4 10:35:48 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 10:35:48 -0000 Subject: Goyle was not at MOM and is not in Azkaban In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104261 > Samnanya > Goyle was NOT at the MOM and therefore, unless he was > arested in a separate undisclosed incident, is NOT at > Azkaban. Potioncat: I wonder about that. I haven't gone back to re-read that portion lately, but IIRC, not all the DE's are named. So we don't really "know" whether he was there or not. Samnanya: > Also while I am at it, Luna was NOT on the Hogwarts train > at the end of oop either. > One of my pet theories of Book 6 is that before Harry's > sixteenth birthday , Luna's dad will be killed by Goyle Sr. > on orders from the dark lord for publishing the original > Harry Potter interview with Rita Skeeter. > snip Potioncat: I didn't pick up on that. Is it said that she isn't there, or is she simply not mentioned? I didn't see your original post. It sounds logical that Luna's father might be a target for the DEs. But why do you think it will be before her 16th birthday? Are you saying, before her 6th year at Hogwarts? Potioncat From submarimon15 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 4 09:20:03 2004 From: submarimon15 at yahoo.com (submarimon15) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 09:20:03 -0000 Subject: Movie PoA Foreshadows Books 6 & 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104262 > Katie now: > > Am I correct in saying that there's no Remus-Lily stuff at all in > the books? Very possibly I'm forgetting something, but I don't > recall him ever mentioning her. Is this JKR's doing, or Steve Kloves? > (The conspiracy theorist in me thinks this might be a > diversionary tactic to overshadow the Sirius/Lupin subtext. But > maybe that's just me.) > > sincerely hoping that we won't learn about a Remus/Lily affair in > book six, > Katie Mike: There's no Remus/Lily stuff mentioned in the books that I can recall without reading from PoA to OotP over specifically looking for these things. How exactly would this be an affair? I also 'think' it's ever mentioned when James and Lily started dating (I know it was mentioned somewhere that they got married right after they graduated). It could be that there was a bit of a Lily/Remus relationship going on before she ended up picking James over Remus? Ok, now the part where I go off on some theories :) 1) Remus and James both loved Lily -The movie seems to foreshadow this, and we really haven't heard too much about Lily's past, though according to JKR we'll learn some more stuff in Book 7. -Perhaps it was a competition between Remus and James to see who could get Lily? Somewhat of a crazy theory, but let's face it, they were teenage boys competing over a popular(most likely) and beautiful girl and this is quite common. -Lily picks James over Remus because he has the courage to save Snape from Sirius' prank? (This can be interperted as cowardice for not being able to go through with the plan, but for the sake of this theory it will be considered courage to stand up to Sirius and stop him from making a large mistake). This comes down to a quote (and completely true statement) made in PS/SS. "There are all kinds of courage," said Dumbledore, smiling. "It takes a great deal of bravery to stand up to our enemies, but just as much to stand up to our friends. I therefore award ten points to Mr Neville Longbottom." -Dumbledore, pg 221 PS paperback, Canadian (british?) edition. I've always liked this quote based on it's truth. It's an excellent little life lesson being thrown in at the end of the novel. What IS interesting is that bravery and courage are valued and the most notable trait for Gryffindors. How does this fit in with the Remus/James competition you ask? Well, we find out in OotP that Remus was made Prefect so that he could "control James and Sirius" (not the exact quote, don't have my OotP with me, but it's in the second half of the Prefect party chapter). Later in Snape's pensieve we see that Remus only sits back and watch's Sirius and James torment Snape. We can learn from this that Remus doesn't have the courage to truly stand up to his friends. We can tell that he's particularly for humiliating Snape as he doesn't join in, but he doesn't even do his Prefect duties to stop this either. Surprise surprise, it's Lily who has to come break up the humiliation. Where I'm going with this, is that if Remus and James were the two eligible love interests in Lily's life, what sets them apart? James has the courage to save someone's life that he's hated for the past 5 years (at least, depending on what year at school the prank happened). In the end, James and Lily get together and leave Remus in the dust as they quickly get married after finishing their 7 years at Hogwarts, and then immediately give birth to Harry. Conclusion based on the "Bridge seen" in the PoA movie: Remus and James both loved Lily, James' extra characteristics, such as Gryffindor bravery makes him the top choice for Lily, Remus is left off in the side again. This brings us to.... 2) ESE!Lupin all over again, but with some different motives. I'm going to assume that all of you have seen this theory around the boards many times so I'm not going to go over the whole thing, just add in the extra bits. -James beats Remus in the "Lily's boyfriend" ladder. Teenage angst easily comes into this. After graduation: James and Lily have each other, and they both keep close ties to Sirius during this time. The war is still going on mind you. Sirius believes Remus might be connected with Voldemort and the DE's. He admits this in the Shrieking Shack scene on PoA (The novel) where Remus apologizes to him for thinking he actually did betray James and Lily as well as kill Peter. Peter just hung around with them, there's no evidence to support either way that they were actually close friends. We have Remus being shunned from the Wizarding world due to the fact he's a werewolf and then being shunned from his friends because they believe he's a traitor, oh, and James just stole the one person he cared for and admired greatly (and possibly the only one who loved him as more than just a friend). Theory: James and Lily are getting paranoid now that they've been marked by Voldemort and the DE's as targets. Sirius proposes a radical idea of making Peter secret keeper instead of himself. James and Lily choose Remus based on this evidence alone depsite not knowing his or anyones true allegiance. Peter goes over to Voldemort and gives him some information anyways, hence why he goes into hiding. He truely believes Sirius DID kill James and Lily; he fakes his own death to hide from Sirius because he believes Sirius has lost it and is coming for him too. Sirius believes Peter actually betrayed them. Peter never openly admits that he was or wasn't secret keeping in the PoA shrieking shack scene (he mumbles). Lupin is outcasted from his friends and the entire WW and is peticularly bitter that James beat him in the competition for Lily (I'm sorry that I'm making this whole Love thing sound like a complete and childish game, but I'm just trying to make it more basic). He's given the keys to James in peticular, the DE's find him because they knew he was close with the Potter's and he figures he has nothing to lose. He gives them the info. Voldemort takes him along to GH, he's already killed James before he enters GH with Lupin. Lupin realizes what he's done upon seeing Lily trying to protect Harry, tells her to run (Lupin's surprise about Harry telling him he heard James' voice). Lily protects Harry at the cost of her life, you know the rest. Yikes! That was way way longer than I had originally thought, but then I just started typing and typing... well I'm sure some of you know how that is. Here's a quick summary and how it relates to the movie: a. The Bridge scene where Lupin and Harry discuss his parents shows that Lupin is more interested in Lily than James. b. The lack of hearing a male's voice in during Harry's dementor induced memories. I mean come on, this is a movie here. If we heard a voice we'd be able to tell if it's Remus/Snape rather than somebody we've never heard speak before (James). c. The Fidelus charm is left out. Well, if all the Secret Keeper points were kept in the movie, it would come down to finding out who the secret keeper is in the Shrieking Shack scene. Peter dodges this question mysteriously by mumbling in the novel, but while reading this would seem normal and we may not pick up on it the first, second or even third times through. If Peter were to be asked that question in the movie, then mumble, we'd catch it right away and it would be completely obvious that things aren't what they seem. Actually these theories probably deserve a post of their own, but unless someone actually shows some interesting in the James/Remus love competition theory I wont bother making a seperate topic for it. Mike, who is happy to finally post his first theoryish post after only reading for quite a while :). From mietoesarepink at comcast.net Sun Jul 4 01:36:28 2004 From: mietoesarepink at comcast.net (Maren Gest) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 19:36:28 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Boggart/ Patronus Musings References: Message-ID: <000401c46167$53ae15a0$6401a8c0@C3P0> No: HPFGUIDX 104263 lziner wrote: >In POA, we never see Lupins Patronus just his boggart -the moon. I've read some posts about James' Patronus - I'm just wondering about the rest of the characters. > I've always thought that Lupin's Patronus would be a cloud...but in POA when Herm. is telling them all in the shrieking shack that Lupin is a wolf she mentions his Patronus representing an orbish figure.. hinting that its a moon. so there you have it.. his Patronus is a moon. "Maren Gest" From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sun Jul 4 11:39:33 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 11:39:33 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited. Character discussions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104264 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Jocelyn Grunow wrote: > > > I think this may be a function not only of personality, but also of > life-experience - and therefore partly of age. I think as we experience > more morally ambiguous situations in life we come to recognise more shades > of grey. We come to understand why people do heinous things without seeing > themselves as heinous people. > Kneasy: Was that a slip, or a deliberate phrasing? - "see themselves as evil" Who sees themselves as evil in canon? Sirius? Snape? Fudge? Malfoy? It's down to us, I think, to draw our own conclusions - at least until all is revealed. Do our life experiences matter when considering the books? Sure, we may draw parallels but that does not guarantee their validity in this case. Our experiences and our responses to them are not congruent with those of the cast in the books, probably not with JKR's either. I'm not young (born during WWII), grey is what I know best. And I'll match my life experiences with anyone; you do and see a lot in 60 years, particularly if you spend much of your working life in very different cultures. But I'm not so sure that's any help at all in sussing out HP. Motivations are a good pointer to predicted behaviour in RL; but in HP I'm not sure that we've been given all that are relevant, those that do/will determine the story arc, sufficient for us to form an opinion, but not enough to remove doubts or suspicions. All the characters, with the probable exception of Voldy, show degrees of moral ambiguity. Deliberately so IMO. They are constructed to make us think, to make us wonder, to make choices. The roulette wheel is still spinning and we are placing our bets. Most of us will be losers, we know that, but it doesn't detract from the game. Whose betting system will prevail? Those who go by gut instinct or those that construct towering edifices of logical deduction based on observed behaviour in the Real World? Perhaps those who try to detect some sort of consistency solely within the parameters of the Potterverse, recognising it as something 'other' and not a direct extrapolation of RL have the right idea. Who can tell? Most posters tend towards the last option, or at least so the frequent appeals to canon would imply. We scour the canon for support or ammunition for refutation, we dismiss the non-canonical arguments. But of course the canon doesn't fill in all the gaps - yet. Since we're impatient and unwilling to wait another 4? 5? years for the answers, we speculate. Only natural. And fun. There have been a couple of posts recently that seem to dismiss this as pointless and/or boring. I find this puzzling. What else is the site for? ESEs, SHIPs, HBP - all are speculations based on guesses or deduction. Or are these critical comments generalisations reflecting a personal dislike for specific threads? If so, it's easy - don't read them. I don't read SHIPs, but if others derive pleasure from them, what harm does that cause to me? None. But I might write a humorous take on them occasionally. Yes, threads do repeat - just about everything on the board has been written before, check the back posts for an ego-shrivelling experience. I did. Someone else has invariably posted your brainwave before - and probably made a better job of it. Does that mean that we must now stop posting because it's all been done? Hardly. We just pick and choose which threads interest us and that we want to contribute to. If we're new to the site, it's everything; the older hands usually become more selective. Jocelyn: > And I suspect more younger people participate in these discussions than > older people. The ability to comfortably use computers in this way is far > more common among those in their 20s than those in their 80s, I would > venture! Kneasy: Maybe. But age and mendacity beats youth and enthusiasm 9 times out of 10. You get sneakier as you get older. Splendid! From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Jul 4 12:14:13 2004 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 4 Jul 2004 12:14:13 -0000 Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups Message-ID: <1088943253.382.98873.w57@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104265 Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the HPforGrownups group: WHO IS THE HALF BLOOD PRINCE? (created by David Frankis): We have been hotly debating who the 'half blood prince' of the title of Book Six might be. There is a time-honoured way to settle this: hold a poll. After all, JKR has to abide by the will of the majority, doesn't she? ;-) Cast one vote. o Tom Riddle o Seamus Finnegan o Dean Thomas o Neville Longbottom o Trevor the Toad o Another Harry-era Hogwarts student o Dudley Dursley o Mark Evans o Albus Dumbledore o Rubeus Hagrid o Remus Lupin o Severus Snape o Gilderoy Lockhart o The next DADA teacher o Another Harry-era adult o James Potter o Another Marauder-era Hogwarts student o Grindelwald o Salazar Slytherin o Godric Gryffindor o Another founder-era person o Nearly Headless Nick o The Bloody Baron o A new character o Other (please post to explain choice) To vote, please visit the following web page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/surveys?id=1294134 Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups web site listed above. Thanks! From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Sun Jul 4 12:21:32 2004 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 12:21:32 -0000 Subject: Movie PoA Foreshadows Books 6 & 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104266 Mike wrote: > Ok, now the part where I go off on some theories :) > > 1) Remus and James both loved Lily > > -The movie seems to foreshadow this, and we really haven't heard too > much about Lily's past, though according to JKR we'll learn some > more stuff in Book 7. > -Perhaps it was a competition between Remus and James to see who > could get Lily? Somewhat of a crazy theory, but let's face it, they > were teenage boys competing over a popular(most likely) and > beautiful girl and this is quite common. > -Lily picks James over Remus because he has the courage to save > Snape from Sirius' prank? (This can be interperted as cowardice for > not being able to go through with the plan, but for the sake of this > theory it will be considered courage to stand up to Sirius and stop > him from making a large mistake). > How does this fit in with the Remus/James competition you ask? Well, > we find out in OotP that Remus was made Prefect so that he > could "control James and Sirius" (not the exact quote, don't have my > OotP with me, but it's in the second half of the Prefect party > chapter). Later in Snape's pensieve we see that Remus only sits back > and watch's Sirius and James torment Snape. We can learn from this > that Remus doesn't have the courage to truly stand up to his > friends. We can tell that he's particularly for humiliating Snape as > he doesn't join in, but he doesn't even do his Prefect duties to > stop this either. Surprise surprise, it's Lily who has to come break > up the humiliation. Diana L.: Good post! I also got the impression from that scene on the bridge that Remus really liked Lily, possibly even *loved* Lily, and that he greatly admired her. This may well be a foreshadowing of emotional revelations in future books. As portrayed in the books [and in the movie by David Thewlis, I might add], Remus purposely keeps himself emotionally distant from Harry, and everyone else. It could be because he fell in love with Lily and never got over her, or it could be because he does not want to open himself up to Harry and get emotionally involved because he is a werewolf and that would not be good for Harry and could be dangerous, as shown later on. I'm leaning more towards the latter reason. Lupin is shunned by most of the WW for being a werewolf and I could see Lupin not wanting to drag Harry into this type of existence with him. We saw such a small snippet of Snape's memory in the pensieve that we don't know how long the animosity between James and Lily lasted. We also don't know what dramatic event happened to make Lily change her mind about James, resulting in such a turnaround that she married him a few years later. I like your idea that Lily changed her mind about James because he stopped Snape from being killed even though they hated each other. However, I don't think that Lily chose James over Remus because of this because I don't think Remus was ever in the picture. I believe it's more likely that Remus didn't grow to know and like [maybe love] Lily until after James and Lily got together as a couple. Falling in love [and remaining in love] with your best friend's wife could make a guy a bit reticient around that friend's child, in my opinion. Mike wrote: > Where I'm going with this, is that if Remus and James were the two > eligible love interests in Lily's life, what sets them apart? James has the courage to save someone's life that he's hated for the past 5 years (at least, depending on what year at school the prank > happened). In the end, James and Lily get together and leave Remus > in the dust as they quickly get married after finishing their 7 > years at Hogwarts, and then immediately give birth to Harry. > Conclusion based on the "Bridge seen" in the PoA movie: Remus and > James both loved Lily, James' extra characteristics, such as > Gryffindor bravery makes him the top choice for Lily, Remus is left > off in the side again. Diana L. I got the impression that Lupin's admiration [or love] of Lily was one of great respect for the kind of person Lily was, which was a great human being. It would be contradictory to admire such wonderful qualities in a person and then not act with the same qualities just because that person was already married to your best friend. I can't see Remus feeling "left off to the side" about not being with Lily when she obviously loves James. Remus loved his friend James, and obviously cares for Harry (more on this later). Mike again: > 2) ESE!Lupin all over again, but with some different motives. > > I'm going to assume that all of you have seen this theory around the boards many times so I'm not going to go over the whole thing, just add in the extra bits. > -James beats Remus in the "Lily's boyfriend" ladder. Teenage angst > easily comes into this. Diana L.: See above as I believe if Remus did love Lily, he fell in love with her after James and Lily were already together as a couple. Mike again: > After graduation: > James and Lily have each other, and they both keep close ties to > Sirius during this time. The war is still going on mind you. > Sirius believes Remus might be connected with Voldemort and the > DE's. He admits this in the Shrieking Shack scene on PoA (The novel) where Remus apologizes to him for thinking he actually did betray James and Lily as well as kill Peter. > Peter just hung around with them, there's no evidence to support > either way that they were actually close friends. Diana L.: The repeated unflattering descriptions in the books of Peter's connection to Sirius, James and Remus leads me to believe that the Marauders didn't see the true traitor in their midst because they, when younger especially, enjoyed Peter's worship of them. They felt superior to the little tag-a-long boy who looked up to them so much that they refused to think this inept wizard could ever equal them or even be worthy of thinking he'd be dangerous to them. Peter is still a murdering git, to be true, but the Marauders still thought too much of themselves to see the truth. Mike: > We have Remus being shunned from the Wizarding world due to the fact > he's a werewolf and then being shunned from his friends because they > believe he's a traitor, oh, and James just stole the one person he > cared for and admired greatly (and possibly the only one who loved > him as more than just a friend). > Theory: James and Lily are getting paranoid now that they've been > marked by Voldemort and the DE's as targets. Sirius proposes a > radical idea of making Peter secret keeper instead of himself. James > and Lily choose Remus based on this evidence alone depsite not > knowing his or anyones true allegiance. > > Peter goes over to Voldemort and gives him some information anyways, > hence why he goes into hiding. He truely believes Sirius DID kill > James and Lily; he fakes his own death to hide from Sirius because > he believes Sirius has lost it and is coming for him too. Sirius > believes Peter actually betrayed them. Peter never openly admits > that he was or wasn't secret keeping in the PoA shrieking shack > scene (he mumbles). > > Lupin is outcasted from his friends and the entire WW and is > peticularly bitter that James beat him in the competition for Lily > (I'm sorry that I'm making this whole Love thing sound like a > complete and childish game, but I'm just trying to make it more > basic). He's given the keys to James in peticular, the DE's find him because they knew he was close with the Potter's and he figures he has nothing to lose. He gives them the info. Voldemort takes him > along to GH, he's already killed James before he enters GH with > Lupin. Lupin realizes what he's done upon seeing Lily trying to > protect Harry, tells her to run (Lupin's surprise about Harry > telling him he heard James' voice). Lily protects Harry at the cost > of her life, you know the rest. Diana L.: I don't see how Remus could ever be ESE. There are too many instances in PoA were Lupin could have injured or killed Harry quite easily, but instead Remus was kind to him and helped him learn how to fight off dementors. I believe Lupin's emotional reaction when Harry tells him that he heard his dad's voice is because Remus *wants* to comfort Harry and tell him everything about his parents and how well he knew James and Lily and how much me misses his friends, but he won't....because Lupin *must* remain emotionally distant from Harry. Look at it from Lupin's veiwpoint - Harry can't come and live with Remus because Remus is poor and most likely has no permanent home. Harry can't rely on Remus to be there every time he needs him because Remus turns into a full-fledged monster several nights every month. A werewolf is so mis-trusted and shunned that Harry's prolonged friendship with Remus would be to Harry's reputation's disadvantage in the WW. Even though Harry wouldn't care one whit about what others think, Remus would for Harry's sake. Remus keeps his distance to protect Harry. Now that Sirius is dead and the only other Maraurder alive serves Voldemort, Remus may relent on his decision to keep emotionally distant and get closer to Harry. Perhaps even taking on the position of confidant that Sirius once held? As for Peter being the Secret Keeper, the body language of Peter throughout the Shrieking scene in the book, which Harry reads as easily as a book, tells me that Peter IS the guilty party and did betray the Potters. It makes no absolutely no sense that Peter would disquise himself for 12 years as a rat to hide from Sirius when Sirius was in Azkaban all that time. Now Peter hiding from Voldemort's un-imprisoned followers because Voldemort was 'killed' after going to the Potters on Peter's information, I can believe. Peter and Remus both betraying the Potters would be overkill - half of the Marauders now serve Voldemort? I don't think so. Peter wouldn't outright say he betrayed Lily and James because during the entire confrontation in the shrieking shack Peter is trying to convince anyone that he is not guilty just for long enough to get away. Wormtail is a coward and admitting his part in James' and Lily's murder would take courage he doesn't have....yet. I think Wormtail's courage, the courage that placed him in Gryffindor, won't show up until he has to choose between what is right [Harry] and what is easy [Voldemort] and he chooses to save Harry. Mike: > a. The Bridge scene where Lupin and Harry discuss his parents shows > that Lupin is more interested in Lily than James. > > b. The lack of hearing a male's voice in during Harry's dementor > induced memories. I mean come on, this is a movie here. If we heard > a voice we'd be able to tell if it's Remus/Snape rather than > somebody we've never heard speak before (James). > > c. The Fidelus charm is left out. Well, if all the Secret Keeper > points were kept in the movie, it would come down to finding out who > the secret keeper is in the Shrieking Shack scene. Peter dodges this > question mysteriously by mumbling in the novel, but while reading > this would seem normal and we may not pick up on it the first, > second or even third times through. If Peter were to be asked that > question in the movie, then mumble, we'd catch it right away and it > would be completely obvious that things aren't what they seem. Diana L. When the film and the book contradict each other, I believe the book over the film in every instance. If it's muddled in the movies, then I believe the more thorough explaination in the books. It is plain to me in the book that Peter was the Secret Keeper and did betray Lily and James to their deaths. Again, I go by the observations of Peter made by Harry throughout the Shrieking Shack scene as well as these statements by Peter: >"He - he was taking over everywhere!" gasped Pettigrew. "Wh-what was there to be gained by refusing him?"< followed by >"You don't understand!" whined Pettigrew. "He would have killed me, Sirius!"< Don't forget, Peter is a liar and doesn't want to admit to anything if there's the slighest chance he could cause enough doubt long enough to get away. As for Harry hearing his father's voice being left out of the movie being a clue to some future revelation, I can't see it contradicting what has been presented in detail in the book. Harry hearing his mother's voice [other than the single scream of "Harrrry!" in the train car] was left out of the movie, so I can't see that leaving James out of the movie was a foreshadowing when he's clearly mentioned in the book, complete with what he said in Harry's memory. And Harry had already heard Snape and Remus and would recognize those voices in his memory as being NOT his father's. The book says that the male voice Harry hears is a "new voice" to him. I just can't see the ESE!Lupin theory holding water regardless of whether he was or was not in love with Lily. Diana L. From saraandra at saraandra.plus.com Sun Jul 4 12:48:55 2004 From: saraandra at saraandra.plus.com (amanitamuscaria1) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 12:48:55 -0000 Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups In-Reply-To: <1088943253.382.98873.w57@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104267 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com wrote: > > Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the > HPforGrownups group: > > WHO IS THE HALF BLOOD PRINCE? (created > by David Frankis): > Snippity-snip > o Other (please post to explain choice) > AmanitaMuscaria now - HEY! you've left out my choice! I'm reckoning on - who else but Draco? Explanation - the half-blood refers to one of his parents having a Veela parent. This also allows the feud between Draco and Harry to play out - though I can't see how JKR will do that convincingly, as Harry has been facing real adult dangerous foes whilst Draco seems to be stuck in a 'yah-boo, sucks to you' schoolboy feud. I can't see why Draco's had so much room in the books based on his performance so far; perhaps that's about to change. Cheers, AmanitaMuscaria From saraandra at saraandra.plus.com Sun Jul 4 12:58:32 2004 From: saraandra at saraandra.plus.com (amanitamuscaria1) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 12:58:32 -0000 Subject: Getting to Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104268 > | From: Eustace_Scrubb > | Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 11:10 > | Eustace_Scrubb: > | Good question. This may be movie contamination in part, but it seems > | that the soot and smudges resulting from floo travel is one of the > | things that sets the Weasleys' socioeconomically below the > | well-groomed Malfoys. > [Lee]: > Well, Eustace, My Friend, I can't agree with you about the socio- economic > thing and floo powder. Now, considering the bit with the age restriction on apparation and that > portkeys are controlled (mentioned by Fudge near the end of OOTP), and > broomsticks are awfully visible, the only thing left that any witch/wizard > can use is...floo powder. So, the whole thing about socio-economic falls > apart, IMO. > Lee :-) AmanitaMuscaria now - Surely what you've just posted, Lee, points firmly at the 'socioeconomic distinction'. Who better than the Malfoys to be able to get a portkey set up for their convenience? All Lucius would have to do is jingle his pocket at Fudge. As we see, when Fudge thinks it's in his interest to believe and protect Harry, Arthur has no problems in getting a couple of Ministry cars to ferry them from the Leaky Cauldron to Kings Cross. One thing we very much see is that the rules are infinitely bendy in the wizard world. Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria From dk59us at yahoo.com Sun Jul 4 13:33:08 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 13:33:08 -0000 Subject: Goyle was not at MOM and is not in Azkaban In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104269 Samnanya: > > Also while I am at it, Luna was NOT on the Hogwarts train > > at the end of oop either. > > One of my pet theories of Book 6 is that before Harry's > > sixteenth birthday , Luna's dad will be killed by Goyle Sr. > > on orders from the dark lord for publishing the original > > Harry Potter interview with Rita Skeeter. > > snip > > Potioncat: > I didn't pick up on that. Is it said that she isn't there, or is > she simply not mentioned? > > I didn't see your original post. It sounds logical that Luna's > father might be a target for the DEs. But why do you think it will > be before her 16th birthday? Are you saying, before her 6th year at > Hogwarts? > Potioncat Eustace_Scrubb: I'm sure Samnanya will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think her scenario helps explain why this will be Harry's shortest summer stay yet at 4 Privet Drive...the proposed attack will occur before _Harry's_ 16th birthday, not Luna's. Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Jul 4 15:02:31 2004 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 4 Jul 2004 15:02:31 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1088953351.21.98728.m16@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104271 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, July 4, 2004 Time: 11:00AM CDT (GMT-05:00) Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. Chat times do not change for Daylight Saving/Summer Time. Chat generally goes on for about 5 hours, but can last as long as people want it to last. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type: /join HP:1 Hope to see you there! From yswahl at stis.net Sun Jul 4 15:44:51 2004 From: yswahl at stis.net (samnanya) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 15:44:51 -0000 Subject: How I spent my summer vacation by Luna Lovegood (was Goyle ..) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104272 > Eustace_Scrubb: > I'm sure Samnanya will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think her > scenario helps explain why this will be Harry's shortest summer stay > yet at 4 Privet Drive...the proposed attack will occur before > _Harry's_ 16th birthday, not Luna's. Samnanya: Imagine this (virtually all supported by canon): Luna is still at Hogwarts looking for her things after the departure of the Hogwarts express. Her dad had agreed to pick her up at Hogwarts in a day or so after he publishes the last issue of the Quibbler before leaving for Sweden on Holiday for the summer. While trying to get the edition out, he is attacked by Goyle and [fill in death eaters here, if any, and ] is killed, but before he dies is able to use one of the quick quote type quills to dictate an urgent message to Luna. [JKR has spent a lot of time describing all kinds of quills, including dictating ones] Since there is to be a delivery, lots of owls are anxiously awaiting delivery and with extreme effort, is able to get the message off with an owl [how about ol' Pigwidgeon, helping to earn his keep with the Weasleys by taking on odd jobs ?] before he is killed. Goyle, finished with his dirty work, rolls up his sleeve..... Luna gets the owl, knows her dad is in danger, and finds a thestral to ride to London to help him.... she is flying over the Quibbler building and sees the dark mark in the sky [both her and her dad know what the dark mark means because they were both conveniently at the Quidditch World Cup in GOF]. Knowing that her dad is dead [or in grave danger] she turns away and heads for the one person she knows who can help her..... and questrals are good at finding places (and people? only slight hole in theory) Later that night, Harry is awakened by the Dursleys garbage bins being overturned, looks out his window, and to his amazement, sees a thestral rummaging through the trash and Luna gazing up at him.... He lets her in the house, hears her story, and is ready to help her. After all, he is Harry Potter, and had already asked her twice if she wanted his help searching for her things. Of course Petunia {or pick a Dursley, any Dursley...} finds Luna ALONE WITH HARRY!! IN HER HOUSE !!! {the horror! the shame! the neighbors might think she is normal!} and shrieks {but not as loudly when she sees the thestral hoofing through her trash}. Vernon/Dudley arrive and Harry and Luna are summarily booted out of the house forever, before his sixteenth birthday and without protection from the dork lord..... IMHO That would make a helluva start to book 6, and extending the scenario further makes a lot of sense for what will happen in the future. For example, there is no way that Hermione returns to the Veil with Harry - she is terrified of the place. However, if her dad has "gone on", Luna has lost the last anchor to this world {ignoring the Harry ship possibility for now..], and will be super motivated to go back there, with Harry, who has similar reasons. Given the above scenario, - i would love to hear alternatives that make sense given what has gone on before, or more ideas supporting it. If you think that this idea sucks then come up with a better one, or skewer it with canon. I love puzzles and JKR has written the best one yet... Let the adventure begin ..... From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sun Jul 4 15:45:52 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 15:45:52 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited. Character discussions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104273 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > > Kneasy: > > Yes, she does. Naturally I discount this (would you expect anything > else?) > > > Alla: > > Actually, Kneasy I do expect something else from you. Of course, it > does not mean that you have to do it. It is just my take on the debate > > > McGonagall's statement is a canon support to the argument of Sirius > being smart. I, quite frankly expect you to acknowledge it, because I > don't remember anything in canon, supporting the argument that > McGonagall would call a student smart, if he /she was not. > > > For example, as you know , I despise Snape's teaching methods with > passion. :o) > > But, when confronted with the canon support that Snape's class is > academically advanced (statement from Umbridge), I acknowledge that > this is a good evidence in support of the argument that academically > Snape is a good teacher. Does not mean that I am buying this argument > completely (still waiting for the resuits of the OWLS), but it is a > good support to it. > > > When the other side's arguments are just dismissed with a shrug, I > feel exactly like Lisa does. What is the point then? > > You will always defend Snape, I will always defend Harry and Sirius > and we will not change each other's minds of course, but it is kind > of gracious, I THINK to acknowledge if either side comes with the > good argument in support of their position. > Do not despair. You may have noticed that I never use emoticons, those little smiley constructions that crop up all over the pplace. Never will, either, so you'll just have to insert *with an evil grin* every third sentence. Then you might get the tone of my posts. But I will state plainly, I don't believe everything said in canon. You don't either, or you shouldn't. Exaggeration and an occasional outright lie are to be expected. You want examples? OK. Hagrid - Nobody went bad but they was Slytherin - then we find out Peter was in Gryffindor. Voldy - Hagrid kept werewolf cubs under his bed - then JKR says in interview, not even in the books, that this was a lie. Both of the above were accepted as strict and immutable canon for a long time; dozens of posts included them as fact. But they're not. So, if someone says something which has canon support elsewhere in the books, we can believe it - probably. If someone expresses a personal opinion, not supported elsewhere, I put a question mark over it. What is common is for posters to accept statements from someone they like and try to dispute statements from those they don't like. Partiality. I've quoted canon (Voldy's statements in the graveyard) for those that don't agree with my interpretations to say it doesn't count, 'cos Voldy would lie on principle. No counter argument, just a dismissal because it runs contrary to their own thoughts. At least I gave a reason for doubting McGonagall. Me, I distrust *all* the characters; any of them could turn out to be different to our perceptions of them to date. To a certain extent I defend Snape, but I've never claimed he's nice or misunderstood. What I say is that his motivations could make his actions comprehensible. And it's his motivations that we don't yet have. Even when we get them it won't make him 'nice' but it might give him a motive for the way he acts. I want to know what it is. This is going too far for some - Snape is evil, full stop. Why? because he's rude and sarcastic to some students. The fact that such behaviour appears to be accepted without demur in the WW passes some people by. Because it is unacceptable in their RL it must, in the opinion of some posters be totally unacceptable in HP too. Not so. HP ain't real. JKR has written her own rules for the WW and probably for good reasons. I'm quite happy to string along until she tells me different. And no, I'm not trying to convince *anyone* to change their mind and come round to my way of thinking. I don't like orthodoxy, it's boring. My posts are made as alternative interpretations whose validity will assessed when the series ends. Most will be wrong, I accept that and it doesn't bother me in the least. Same as I'm not bothered if my posts are passed over or ignored by other readers. Some posters irritate; there's currently three that I never bother reading, I pass over them deliberately - always. But I don't make a song and dance about it. I don't tell them they are spoiling my fun, because objectively, their opinions are no different to mine - personal thoughts expressed on site. Yes, I have changed my mind about certain characters and probable outcomes and yes, there have been times when I've been in error and I've apologised. That's no problem; it's not as if I'm sacrificing my first- born. It's only a book. I work to the principle "I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain" which means I will defend a position until it becomes untenable, concede and then take up another position on something else. Compromise is unattractive and mostly not feasible anyway, not given the way the story is set up. Snape can't be half-evil, Sirius can't be half-good; they're ambiguous, true - but something must weigh more heavily on one side of the balance than the other and tip the scales to allow a final judgement. But if you're unhappy with my posts on Sirius then you have a choice - ignore them or counter with canon. The "but I like him" "But he loves Harry" and particularly the "Azkaban stunted his development" threads don't exactly counter what I'm saying. If Sirius is dodgy, then he was dodgy *before* going to Azkaban. That's when most of his disasterous 'decisions' were made - before Azkaban. If he's bad, he was probably bad even then. If he's not bad then we'll find out sooner or later and I'll have to eat my words, but as things stand too many things don't add up when I look at Sirius. Nora picked up on my contention regarding intelligence. Good for Nora. That's the sort of response I like. "Make the bugger support his case." Stops a poster from getting sloppy. A response from someone else of "You're just saying that because you don't like him" or "That's because you're a Snape apologist" is not worth bothering with IMO. It's reducing discussion to the trite, mundane and non-canonical; name-calling. Nora and I have crossed swords before, to our mutual enjoyment, I hope. I doubt there's much we agree on but we do thrive on our disagreements. And she checks her canon, and she's tenacious. She's not enamoured of wishful thinking (the "I think there's a spell that they used that we don't know about" syndrome). Good. That's what I enjoy, mostly because I hope I lean that way myself. Kneasy From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sun Jul 4 15:54:05 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 15:54:05 -0000 Subject: Fear and Valour (Long) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104274 I jut reread OOtP! Yay it was wonderful to immerse myself in the Potter Universe again. I laughed and cried and was awestruck by Jo's incredible depth of perception again. I could rave a while longer because she really deserves it, but I am posting for an entirely different reason. During this, my fourth or so, reading of the Department of Mysteries and Lost Prophecy chapters in succession I have given some deep thought to some paragraphs etc that have left a definite imprint. I would like to discuss the theme 'Fear'. In the context of these chapters there are some lightning bolts striking home that Fear and its very opposite, Valour will be at a crux of involvement in the finale of the series. I hear you say "Of course Stupid!" but I must continue because I dont recall having seen or heard this matter discussed in quite the particular way I intend to propose. The first bit of Canon I would like to surmise gives us reason to consider this is the recurring theme throughout the books of: "He-who-must-not-be-named". I noted repeatedly in my reading of OOP something I found entirely interesting. First that Lucius Malfoy, Bellatrix Lestrange and Severus Snape, (note all are ones who bear the Dark Mark on their arm), reacted in an interesting way to Harry's lack of fear in saying Voldemorts name. They all replied with a quip something to the likes of "How dare you?!" and continued from thereon in a manner that had me suspecting they were fulfilling a duty to 'Protect the Fear of the Name'. I will give the two examples I can think of here. "'How come I saw through the snakes eyes if it is Voldemort's thoughts I am sharing?' 'Do not say the Dark Lord's name !' spat Snape. There was a nasty silence..... ....'Professor Dumbledore says his name' said Harry quietly. 'Dumbledore is an extremely powerful wizard' Snape muttered 'While he may feel secure enough to use the name .... the rest of us ....' he rubbed his left forearm, apparently unconciously, .... " Note the UNCONCIOUS factor involved in Snapes touching of his mark ! "'You dare speak his name?' whispered Bellatrix. 'Yeah,' said Harry maintaining his tight grip on the glass ball, expecting another attempt to bewitch it from him. 'Yeah, I've got no problem saying Vol-' 'Shut your mouth!' Bellatrix shrieked......... Note two important details. One that Harry was expecting another attempt at bewitching the orb from him, which didnt happen. And two that Bellatrix' apparent priority newly became to prevent him 'Saying it again'. We already know that the 'Fear' is a large part of the source of LV's power, but really we only establish that unofficially, because no exact canon we have lifted so far supports that LV specifically means to establish and *directly* maintain it to the nth degree because he would have no power without it. Invariably we agree that the "Dark Lord" would be powerless if someone was to take away the fear, which brings me to my next point. I have always found curious to ponder, as I am sure we have all done, How much has been unsaid about the 'Fear' of saying "You know who's' name". I sit on the fence of two suppositions here not because I cannot decide but because I think it may be a bit of both. Again with the one, twos.... One the adage of "Speak of the Devil and he will appear.." Its not canon but suffice to say I am pretty sure some similar superstition is held by the WW and is also likely to be the real deal there. Meaning of course; If you say his name, he will come. Make no mistake about that. Two of course that "The fear of the name increases the fear of the thing itself." I think that these, lets call them spellforms, are more powerful as a combination than on their own. AND that LV is working both sides of the fence in some kind of "complex spell model". BTW and FYI everybody "complex spell models" ARE canon. see OWLs in OOtP its page 630 in my own version, and is mentioned as Harry is attempting to dream before his Transfiguration exam. So to this point I have addressed an argument that Voldemort is using a "complex spell model" combining at least two forms of powerful magic upon the masses to concrete his dominion of the wizard world. Further I believe that he has marked his servants as servants of this spell. So, whether they want to or not, they WILL fulfill his *first priority* of maintaining to the absolute extent of their reaches the fear of his name. Because it is incedently ,or actually specifically, the one thing that makes him so damn undefeatable. I just want to note here before I continue that he has "marked Harry as his equal" consider this in the context of the marks on his servants. Which brings me to my next point, Dumbledore could have killed him several times over in just that one night at the MOM ! He didn't. ? :-S ? And not just that he also explained to us why. "'...merely taking your life would not satisfy me I admit-'" Yes, it would not. Which is why he has such hope in Harry, the one with the "power to vanquish the Dark Lord". Dumbledore does not believe for an instant the mere death of Tom Riddle could destroy the power of the Dark Lord. Tom Riddle is but a wizard, a man weilding a very big gun. The Dark Lord is not just the man, but the man AND the gun. To truly vanquish Voldemort all he has created in his dominion must be undone, completely. The Fear the Reverence the utter Awe that exists these are the spell that has been cast on the WW and whilesoever it remains Voldemort is indestructable. He never died when the AK backfired because of this very awesome unbreakable spell, if Dumbledore dropped several houses right on his head he would get up again and again and again because he can never be undone until someone unpicks the fabric of his interwoven omnipresent existence. In OOtP Hermione, inspired by Harry, began to say Voldemorts name aloud. Hermione's Valour is to be admired but also considered cautiously. Saying Voldemorts name is provoking him to defend his power, and most certainly he would. Hermione might defy him in this continued way but everytime she does she 'gives and takes' a little of his power away from him. She takes his power by not fearing, and she gives him power by voluntarily making herself available to him as a trophy for his dominion that he may claim by successfully defending his terrifying name. Now he might just take on Hermione alone, and perhaps she is foolhardy to venture into the scary place that is the martyrdom of LV's reign, but someone needs to jump first to make way for the others to follow. If the entire WW was to begin "Voldemorting" this and that right now, Dumbledore could throw Tom to the Giant Squid for all that it would matter. I'll make that point now because this leads me to my final thought on this thread. I have given some argument to points that Voldemort needs to maintain the fear of his name in the WW and that Harry has already picked a thread in vanquishing the massive multifunctional spell that is the Dark Lords Dominion. If this job was all that was required of the great vanquisher then surely DD could eventually persuade enough wizards to relinquish their terror of the dominion and humiliate LV into oblivion. So why then, does Harry need to do anything? I believe the answer to Harrys *true* part in this grand undoing is in the last original statement of the prophecy ie "neither can live while the other survives". Harry and Voldemort are equals. This is because of choice*, Voldemort chose his equal. He marked him, as an equal. How did this happen? Another complex spell model that we could discuss in more detail but JKR already revealed the majority of its inner workings to us. What is not said about it is that it has a result equal to the last one. A name. (: Apparently the fates expected "Tom Genius. Super-Spell-Model- Caster" to notice he was redoing it in reverse. And he didn't ;) Before this, Voldemort shared his awesome existence with noone. He, ALONE, enjoyed the power that every mere thought of this "one small thing" increased his exsitence beyond his mortal self into a realm where no attack on his mortal body could ever destroy it. He tried to take Lily's baby, and then there were two. Th problem with this power is that there is only room for one, ulitimately. If the names grew to equal power in the WW it would split and battle and so forth, and then of course when the battle was over the handful of survivors from the losing half make up the surviving 'power of that name' so then the name would eventually ressurrect and battle so on and so forth.. etc etc Down to the last man standing, as long as the name survived, the other could not live because the very existence that both have is entirely in the names. They have both already been killed! There is, actually, only one life left between them. The conjured life the amazing spellwork of their immortal names. Only one can have it. Ok I am done Pelt away. Valky From yswahl at stis.net Sun Jul 4 16:18:57 2004 From: yswahl at stis.net (samnanya) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 16:18:57 -0000 Subject: Goyle was not at MOM and is not in Azkaban In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104275 Diana L. Luna is not in the same compartment as Harry, Hermione, Ron, Neville and Ginny, but that does not mean she's not on the train. She could just be in a different compartment. samnanya That may be true, but why would JKR mention two of her attributes with Ginny {quibbler reading, upside down}? If you compare this chapter to Chapter 10 when Luna and Harry first meet, virtually all the loose ends are linked -- for expample Neville's plant, seeing Cho. Why would Neville's plant and Cho Chang merit more attention than luna? Lunas absence is glaring in its incompleteness given all the other details, especially considering that she was the only one able to ease Harry's pain before he left Hogwarts. Diana l. *If* she's not on the train, her dad might have picked her up from school in order to start that vacation immediately so they can finish their trip before she goes back to school next year. It obviously wasn't important to JKR to mention Luna as not being or definitely being on the train, which may indicate that Luna's importance to the story may have passed. samnanya If that is the case, why was Luna even brought in? Why did she merit her own chapter? One of the rules of writing is that you do not waste precious pages on characters that dont move the story forward in some way. For anyone who doubts this, I strongly suggest that they read the next to the last chapter of oop to see how deep Harrys despair had gone and who was the only one to make even the slightest difference in his feelings. IMHO the two pages describing Harry's meeting of Luna at the bulletin board was among the best that JKR has written in this series. Not a word wasted. {responses to other aspects of this post to follow...} samnanya the story forward. From RoxyElliot at aol.com Sun Jul 4 16:19:29 2004 From: RoxyElliot at aol.com (RoxyElliot at aol.com) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 12:19:29 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Movie PoA Foreshadows Books 6 & 7 Message-ID: <1ce.252bde05.2e198811@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104276 In a message dated 7/4/2004 2:18:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, anthyroserain at yahoo.com writes: > sincerely hoping that we won't learn about a Remus/Lily affair in > book six, > Katie I don't think there's any affair, but I do think all of James's friends were in love with Lily. Actually my other half had commented to me about this after reading OOP the first time, long before the movie came out. His thought was that they all loved Lily and perhaps had all pursued her in school, a theory which drives me crazy but the POA movie seems to have indicated. Hopefully we'll learn more in book six! Roxy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From yswahl at stis.net Sun Jul 4 16:28:43 2004 From: yswahl at stis.net (samnanya) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 16:28:43 -0000 Subject: WHy the Quibbler ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104277 Diana It's possible Voldemort could want revenge against the publisher of the Quibbler because of Harry's interview, but what would be the point? Samnanya What better place for evil to strike then at the press? The Quibbler was always independent in its thinking and was the only publication that was willing to publish "the truth" about Voldemort's return. The Daily Prophet was clearly anti-Harry and anti-Dumbledore, under the control of the MoM. THEY didnt publish the interview. OOP made it clear that the DL felt it necessary to act secretly until he had the prophecy. The Quibbler was the first act of exposure. All the more reason to send a thug like Goyle to brutally and physically mess things up..... Much better message than magic. Diane L. The Daily Prophet printed the same interview later, so would Voldemort then try to kill everyone who worked at the Daily Prophet as well? I think Voldemort knew that he couldn't stay under the radar forever. His return was bound to be discovered and *believed* eventually. Besides, I think he'll blame the entire interview on, who else?, Harry himself for giving it in the first place. Samnanya The Daily Prophet published the story after the danger had passed - they didnt "break" the story. By the time the Daily Prophet publised it, harry was now a Hero again. From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Sun Jul 4 16:34:16 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 16:34:16 -0000 Subject: The word "prince" in OotP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104278 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "smartone564" wrote: > Wouldn't he just look and act a lot like Dudders? Pampered by > some wizard family, every minor wish granted as the family tries > to pay back all the suffering they now don't have to face? > Well, there's quite a similarity between Draco and Dudley - I think the differences are primarily due to class and money. If the Dursleys had the same attitude as Lucius, that their son had to "live up" to his status and heritage, maybe they wouldn't allow him to gratify every whim (especially when it comes to food). I think Draco maybe is denied more in his daily life, but he has the expectation that eventually he'll have EVERYTHING. I also thought of a sneaky loophole for the HBP identity. It could be a temptation that Harry refuses. A little like that invented bit at the end of the PS movie, where Voldemort tries to get Harry to join him. If Voldemort were smart, he might try that tack: "You and me, Harry - I'll be Numero Uno, and you'll be my second in command and heir (the HBP), and together Ve Vill Rule Ze Vorld!!!" (Sorry, must be channelling Dr. Strangelove there.) Anyway, you get my drift. So the HBP is not Voldemort or Harry...in fact, at the end it's nobody, because Harry doesn't fall for it. It's not my favourite theory - I'm still voting for Tom Riddle as the HBP - but it would be a way around JKR's declaration ruling out Harry and Voldemort. From mhbobbin at yahoo.com Sun Jul 4 12:26:24 2004 From: mhbobbin at yahoo.com (mhbobbin) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 12:26:24 -0000 Subject: Movie PoA Foreshadows Books 6 & 7 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104279 mhbobbin writes: Further to my own posting and replies from earlier on foreshadowing-- I don't really think that JKR would put a Lily / Remus / James triangle into the story, if only because it's marketed towards children. As for dating, in Oop, Sirius and Remus reveal to Harry that Lily and James started dating some time after the Snape abuse incident. And no, Remus never goes on about Lily in the books. In Book PoA, Remus avoids revealing to Harry how close he was to Harry's parents, and to Sirius Black, until late in the story. And he does not talk about Lily. But note, for example, in Chapter 10 "The Marauder's Map", when Harry tells Lupin he could hear Voldemort murdering his mum, "Lupin made a sudden motion with his arm as though to grip Harry's shoulder, but thought better of it." This is typical of Lupin's emotional behavior around Harry. It is unique to Lupin. But there is a wild theory out there that prior to being killed, James Potter did a switching spell with Remus, so that Remus was bizarrely in James' body and murdered, and James was stuck in Remus's body with all that implies, including werewolf transformations. What would support the idea of a switching spell is that we know that at the time of their deaths, it was known that there was a double agent in the Potters' circle of friends. Remus thought it was Sirius. Sirius thought it was Remus. They apologize to one another in the Shrieking Shack. No one thought it was Pettigrew. Apparently, we should deduce that James did not believe the informer was Sirius as he entrusted the secret to Sirius. But did he also obtain additional insurance by switchng with Remus without telling Sirius? Thus not really determining which of his best friends was the traitor? Against the switching spell: it's a wild theory and makes my head hurt. But would Remus, if he was really James, allow Sirius to take on the father role with Harry as he does until his apparent death? Although I haven't bought into the Switching Spell, it is a theory that is out there. And Remus is keeping some interesting secret still, and that is reinforced by the film scenes. As for the film, Steve Kloves is very respectful of the material, and I don't think he would stray far from the material without consulting with JKR to be sure he doesn't mislead. The exposition that's left out of the film can always be put in later. But taking us in the wrong direction would be hard to fix. Any comments on my comments on Dementors or Stonehenge foreshadowing? From yswahl at stis.net Sun Jul 4 16:35:53 2004 From: yswahl at stis.net (samnanya) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 16:35:53 -0000 Subject: Goyle was not at MOM and is not in Azkaban In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104280 Diana L. We don't know for sure that Goyle wasn't one of the DEs arrested at the MoM, because Harry didn't know the identity of all the DEs that were there. All the DE's in the MoM were wearing masks as well, though several of them removed their masks during the chase for the prophecy ball. If Goyle wasn't arrested at the MoM, then he would still have to go 'on the lam', so to speak, to avoid being arrested, because Harry named him as a DE and the WW will believe Harry's story now because of Voldemort's personal appearance inside the MoM. Samnanya Harry might indeed know if he was listening carefully at the door to Lucius Malfoy barking out orders for the death eaters to split into groups. THere were 12 de's there and if you check the names, Goyle was not among them. JKR spent a lot of words describing who went where, and Goyle was noticeable in his absence {so was wormtail, but that wasnt quite as glaring to me. Goyle and Crabbe are always describled together - like sons like fathers] Goyle would not need to go on the lam because he did not "commit a crime". Last i recall, it is not a crime to assemble in a cemetary, even if you are welcoming the return of the dark lord. And it has been established that trials are necessary in the WW needed to prove guilt or innocence. From eternal_riddle at yahoo.com Sun Jul 4 11:48:38 2004 From: eternal_riddle at yahoo.com (Anastasia) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 11:48:38 -0000 Subject: About Sirius, Wormtail, Snape, Draco In-Reply-To: <20040704065145.32276.qmail@webmail8.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104281 > Amey: Hagrid wonders why LV didn't try recruiting Potters, so he must be particularly eager to kill them. So that means they must be very much active in the Order (this fits the great respect they had in WW). > Also, DD knew for a long time somebody close to them was passing information to LV, why very close to Potters? Just because it was Wormtail? Why was he recruited by LV? He doesn't seem to be very bright, his only plus point was that he was close to Potters (who were in Order, I agree, but is that only criterion?). I doubt DD trusting him with important information any more than we can trust Crabe or Goyle. I can see how he came in the Order (being one of Marauders), but a spy? He must have some hidden abilities. eternal_riddle: PP was recruited by LV for several reasons. One of them could be that LV wanted a spy who was in the Order. How many of them would have agreed to help him? By the fact that so many died fighting DEs I think only one would - namely Peter Pettigrew. From eternal_riddle at yahoo.com Sun Jul 4 11:34:47 2004 From: eternal_riddle at yahoo.com (Anastasia) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 11:34:47 -0000 Subject: Boggart/ Patronus Musings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104282 Alla wrote: > > > Well, JKR said in the March Chat that Snape's Patronus and Boggart > > will be important to the plot. > > > > I used to think that Snape's Patronus will be Dumbledore. > > > > I am now thinking that Snape's Patronus could be Lily (if Snape > > indeed had feelings for her) and Snape's Boggart could be James. > Potioncat: > My vote would be DD for Snape's Patronus (giant bumblebee as I doubt > it could be a lemondrop :-) But I don't think it would be James for > the Boggart. It could be a Werewolf or it could relate to being a > DE. > > I wonder if Black's Patronus would have been a stag for James or > something to represent James' father. His Boggart might have been a > Dementor. eternal_riddle: I think that the shape of a Boggart changes through the life of a person, so we can talk only about the shape of a Boggart at a certain time, lets assume end of OoP. Black's Boggart could very well be a dementor after the 12 years he has spent in Azkaban. His Patronus could be a stag since James was the person he trusted most in his life. When it comes to Snape, his Boggart should be rather Sirius than James if it is one of them. If I'm honest, I don't think it is either of them. What Snape should fear most at the moment is being exposed as a spy be some DE. Snape's Patronus could be DD. When it comes to Snape, we really don't know that much about him, so it is very hard to judge. It could be his mother because she could have protected him against his father, who knows? From eternal_riddle at yahoo.com Sun Jul 4 12:20:03 2004 From: eternal_riddle at yahoo.com (Anastasia) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 12:20:03 -0000 Subject: Movie PoA Foreshadows Books 6 & 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104283 > Mike: It could be that there was a bit of a Lily/Remus > relationship going on before she ended up picking James over Remus? > We have Remus being shunned from the Wizarding world due to the fact > he's a werewolf and then being shunned from his friends because they > believe he's a traitor, oh, and James just stole the one person he > cared for and admired greatly (and possibly the only one who loved > him as more than just a friend). > > Theory: James and Lily are getting paranoid now that they've been > marked by Voldemort and the DE's as targets. Sirius proposes a > radical idea of making Peter secret keeper instead of himself. James > and Lily choose Remus based on this evidence alone depsite not > knowing his or anyones true allegiance. > > a. The Bridge scene where Lupin and Harry discuss his parents shows > that Lupin is more interested in Lily than James. > > b. The lack of hearing a male's voice in during Harry's dementor > induced memories. I mean come on, this is a movie here. If we heard > a voice we'd be able to tell if it's Remus/Snape rather than > somebody we've never heard speak before (James). eternal_riddle: The fact that we don't hear James' voice in the movie could simply result from not having found any suitable actor. Suppose James/his shadow is to appear in film 6 or 7, then there was someone needed to play him, but this person has not been found yet. Or JKR wants to conceal that. If someone spoke James now and someone else played him afterwards... Too much confusing. I believe Sirius knew who was Secret Keeper for James and Lily. If he was evil, he would want to be made Secret Keeper instead. Since he did not, he was good and their best friend, so they told him. He WAS the person they trusted most of all. Lupin is not interested more in Lily than in James. If I recall it correctly, at the time when he talks to Harry on the bridge, Harry has heard Lily but not James. So they talk about Lily. The fact that Remus has suffered from being a werewolve makes him kind of a tragic hero. What he needed was someone to comfort him. Neither James nor Sirius could do that because 1. they did not understand the tragic part about it and 2. Remus would not want to show his stronger friends his weakness. And that's where Lily comes in. Lupin sounds to me as if Lily was the best female friend he ever had, as if he loved her like a SISTER, not like a girl friend. He would have spoken differently if it was the sond way. I can be wrong, of, course, but that is the way I feel about it. eternal_riddle From mhbobbin at yahoo.com Sun Jul 4 16:51:26 2004 From: mhbobbin at yahoo.com (mhbobbin) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 16:51:26 -0000 Subject: Sirius Black Poll Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104284 griffin782002 wrote: I have my own thoughts about the veil. J.K.R. has used many elements from ancient mythologies for her books. For example, centaurs were wise and play an important part in Greek myths. ... Also the ancient Greeks believed that a three-headed dog, known as Cerberus, guarded the entrance to the Underworld, which they called Hades. There are myths which tell the story of a hero that for some reason has to 'visit' the Underworld. Hercules has to go there in order to 'borrow' Cerberus for one of his twelve tasks. Orpheus, a mythicmeal micisian went to take back his dead wife. I wonder if the veil is a similar kind of entrance. ... mhbobbin writes: The Greek Mythology references are why I am in denial about death of Sirius. Yes, he's dead, as JKR has indicated, but so were the characters in Greek Mythology which JKR draws from. And we know now if we don't have a body in JKR's world, the death is suspect. In addition to the two myths that griffin782002 mention, Heracles goes to the Underworld to bring back Alcestis, and then there's the story of Persephone, whose return from the underworld is negotiated but who returns only half the year (Spring and Summer) because she has eaten a pomegranate seed. That makes four different Greek myths about return from the Underworld. We have in our story thus far the requirements for the task of going into the underworld. I don't think that's coincidental. 1. We have the requisite motivated and brave hero in Harry. 2. We know where the entrance to the underworld is. 3. Our hero knows how to get past the large three headed dog. Fluffy is either Cerberus or a close relative. Hagrid got Fluffy "from a Greek chappie". And where is Fluffy these days? 4. Harry mistakenly adds Pomegranate Juice to his potion on p363 , Ch 17 of OoP. There's no mention of pomegranate anywhere but here, as an error by Harry. By inserting this fruit with its mythological association with Persephone and the Underworld into OoP, is JKR planting a seed in our minds? Well, eventually we will see what happens. From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Jul 4 17:06:29 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 17:06:29 -0000 Subject: Goyle was not at MOM and is not in Azkaban In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104285 > Samnanya > Harry might indeed know if he was listening carefully at the door to > Lucius Malfoy barking out orders for the death eaters to split into > groups. THere were 12 de's there and if you check the names, Goyle was > not among them. JKR spent a lot of words describing who went where, > and Goyle was noticeable in his absence {so was wormtail, but that > wasnt quite as glaring to me. Goyle and Crabbe are always describled > together - like sons like fathers] > Goyle would not need to go on the lam because he did not "commit a > crime". Last i recall, it is not a crime to assemble in a cemetary, > even if you are welcoming the return of the dark lord. And it has been > established that trials are necessary in the WW needed to prove guilt > or innocence. Potioncat: How many of the 12 were named? (Sorry, I don't know the answer.) I also thought (think) Goyle wasn't there because as you say he wasn't named and usually we think of Crabbe and Goyle together. But we don't really know if he was there. So, if he was there, he is in Azkaban. It doesn't appear that anyone escaped. If he wasn't there, he has at least been cast in a bad light and will need to be careful, now that the MoM will be rounding up suspicious characters. Potioncat From jjpandy at yahoo.com Sun Jul 4 17:07:37 2004 From: jjpandy at yahoo.com (jjpandy) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 17:07:37 -0000 Subject: The word "prince" in OotP In-Reply-To: <20040702033820.37852.qmail@web40609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104286 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Suzanne Chiles wrote: > Inkling quotes and notes: > > > "Five years ago then," Dumbledore continued..."You > arrived at > > Hogwarts, neither as happy or well nourished as I > would have > > liked, perhaps, but alive and healthy. You were not > a pampered > > little prince, but as normal a boy as I could have > hoped under the > > circumstances..." > > > > Of course, "prince" may just be a figure of speech > in this > > instance, but it does occur in a very crucial > discussion about > > Harry's past. Possibly the choice of words was more > than just > > coincidence? We know that Harry is not the HBP, but > maybe -- > > just maybe -- this supports the theory that James > came from > > some kind of royalty? Anyway just thought I'd throw > it into the pot. > >JJPandy's reply: Maybe there is a connection with the "prince " reference at the end of OoTP, but I think Dumbledore was just explaining one of his many reasons for leaving Harry with the Dursleys. In Ch. 1 SS/PS: Dumbledoresaid to McGonagall: "Exactly,....It would be enough to turn any boy's head. Famous before he can walk and talk! Famous for something he won't even remember! Can't you see how much better off he'll be, growing up away from all that until he's ready to take it?" JJPandy :) > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sun Jul 4 17:24:21 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 17:24:21 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104287 Demetra wrote: (much snipping) > > I too have been thinking about Sirius and his story for a while, > > probably since I read Kneasy's post #79808. > > > > Just to qualify where I'm coming from ? I like Snape (would > > probably qualify as a Snape apologist), I like Harry (yes it is > > possible to like both Snape and Harry) and I was puzzled by > > Sirius in PoA, liked him in GoF and didn't like him at all in > > OotP. However, I was convinced that he was being slipped a > > confusement and befuddlement draft in OotP and that was what > > caused his seeming personality change. I also thought that > > perhaps his passing through the veil was a heroic and necessary > > act that he volunteered for (see Talisman's Tactics&Prescience > > thread starting with post 66983 and my response 76111). I'm > > less convinced of that now, although I do think that Sirius may > > play a future role as a conduit between those living and > > those who have moved on to the next great adventure. > > > > Most recently though, I started viewing Sirius in an altogether > > different light. > > > > Because there is no doubt in my mind that Sirius is an impulsive > > man who doesn't think things through and never grew up. And I > > can't buy the argument that he couldn't mature because he was in > > Azkaban for 12 years. Why hadn't he matured before then? > > > > Let's see, he talks about the full moon fondly to his werewolf > > friend, who suffers greatly because of what he is. That's > > kind. Then he refuses to help his friend study because he knows > > everything already. Never mind that his friend might need some > > help. Not a concern of Sirius', who acts as though the world > > revolves around him. > > I'm convinced there is more to the Snape/Lupin dynamic than > > meets the eye. Both seem to have been bookish when in school. > > James and Sirius don't. Is it possible that Lupin and Snape ran > > across each other in the library ? like Hermione and Krum? > > Could a tentative friendship have started ? something that > > Sirius felt a need to end, and if Snape ends up dead more's the > > better? And if Lupin could tentatively befriend someone like > > Snape, couldn't you see Sirius taking that as evidence > > that Lupin was the one who was betraying the order later? > > > > My only problem is that at the end of GoF Dumbledore says he > > trusts both Snape and Sirius. So despite all my misgivings, I > > can concede that = Sirus might be on the right side, although he > > is far from nice (IMHO anyway). Kneasy: > IMO Sirius is a nasty character, written sympathetically. This > raises the question - why? Is he the flawed hero, the Heathcliffe > of Hogwarts? A thoroughly bad lot redeemed (in this case) by his > love for Harry? Or is the sympathetic presentation a device to > lull the unwary into thinking he's not as bad as he really is and > so presenting the eventual proof of his betrayal in even starker > contrast? > > One thing that most posters forget, even though it is thrust under > our noses - the conflicts in the Potterverse are wider than just > good vs evil. It can simplify matters if one ignores this; one can > boil it all down to pro- or anti-Voldy, which is a mistake IMO. > > JKR has told us often enough how much background she writes on each > character, even though she knows it will never be used in the > books. Sirius is a case in point. There's an entire life history > of Sirius in her files and I'll bet the detail is mind-boggling. > She knows Sirius as an individual, likes, dislikes, hates, > motivations, significant life events. Much, much more than we will > ever see. > > Sirius has 'issues' (God, I hate that word) with his family, with > Snape, with Peter, even as you point out, with Lupin. > Superficially they seem to be explained - an antipathy to pure- > blood attitudes, dislike of the 'idea'of someone like Snape, > hatred for someone who betrays a friend, dismissive of those less > assertive than himself. > > He has a whim of iron. It's unlikely that he would concede anything > gracefully; he may never concede anything at all. > > It is not inconceivable that one or more of Sirius's 'personal' > stances runs counter to the philosophical choices between good and > evil. In principle he may be 'for' good, but if a personal > antipathy to an individual conflicted with this, I think that > general principles would go out of the window. > > And I can't see how Sirius will end up looking better, not given > what we already know. SSSusan: I can't believe it. I'm sitting here stunned. As much as I've been willing to enter the fray with Snape discussions--bashing him here, appreciating him there, always willing to say I enjoy him--all it's taken are posts by Demetra & Kneasy, and I'm ready to just concede to one side on the Sirius discussion! I thought I liked him; I thought I could *fairly* easily defend him if I gave some time & thought to it. But you two have stunned me into thinking I can't. I mean, saying he has a whim of iron [great phrase] strikes me as so true, and it does seem to follow that if faced with a personal stance that goes against good vs. evil, well, *would* he make the tougher choice?? I'm not so sure. Hey, everybody! Besides the lousy upbringing/12 years in Azkaban explanations/rationales/excuses [take your pick], is there any way Sirius can be defended against some of the points Demetra & Kneasy have made?? What I wouldn't give, Kneasy, to see those notes of JKR's on Sirius.... Siriusly Snapey Susan...who *appreciates* someone else pointing out that it's possible to like Snape AND Harry [thanks, Demetra]. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sun Jul 4 17:39:14 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 17:39:14 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited--emotional maturity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104288 Katie wrote: > I do think Sirius is immature, but I think that, as Jocelyn says, > he *was* relatively young when he went to Azkaban. (I believe I > read that same article, Jocelyn, by the way, and entirely agree > with you here. The article said that decision-making capability > and rationality were the last areas of the brain to fully mature, > and it seems that Sirius has most of his trouble in these areas.) > We find out that Sirius ran away from home and had to become > independent at a young age, due to his miserable family. This > certainly would also have some effect on his emotional maturity. SSSusan: Something really struck me in this paragraph, Katie. Isn't this similar to Harry's young life? I know, he didn't have to run away, but he certainly lived within a miserable family and had to learn to take care of himself pretty much, and to handle their crap. Add to that the incredible horrors he endured--death of parents, attacks by Voldy, etc.--and his upbringing would certainly be as horrible (or moreso) than Sirius'. We *have* seen some of the same rashness in Harry--rushing off to save people or fight w/o really thinking of the consequences. (Don't get me wrong--it's one of the things I love about Harry--his willingness to just DO what has to be done, instead of shuffling his feet and saying, "Can't somebody ELSE do it?") And yet, when it comes to emotional maturity, it seems Harry is ahead of Sirius. He's NOT an arrogant git, attacking schoolmates just because he can/they exist. He's NOT setting people up like Sirius did Snape with the prank. I guess I'd ask, why isn't Sirius as mature as Harry?? You also made these statements: 1) > I'd argue that Sirius is suffering from depression in OOTP. 2) > And I don't buy the argument that Azkaban shouldn't have > affected his emotional development. 3) > There's a discussion going on in this group about Hermione and > her parents that touches on the idea that the wizarding world can > sometimes be a little indifferent toward characters' emotional > health. SSSusan again: I certainly agree w/ number three. Hogwarts/the WW seem to be places where "just buck up and take it" is the motto. Do you think these things could be enough to "explain away" Sirius? Again, I keep thinking of Harry. We see him become quite surly and angry, even resentful in OoP--something which seemed quite natural & understandable to me--and yet he somehow doesn't seem as immature or selfish as Sirius on occasion. [I'm thinking, for example, of how Sirius, as an adult, goads Harry by saying his *father* would've taken the risks Harry's declining to take.] Is that a fair comparison to make? Given what you said here-- > It seems to me (though I may well be wrong) that HP fans are > often quite absolutist about the characters in the books. There's > a tendency to see characters as overwhelmingly evil or good, > begetting character assassination and complex theories (frequently > involving charms and spells to affect personality) to justify > a "good" character's morally ambiguous choices. My question is, > why do we need characters to be overwhelmingly one thing or > another, to a degree that would be unrealistic in real life? --it may be that you're not really inclined to do any kind of comparing of Harry to Sirius. And that's fine, because I'm not challenging you so much as I'm just curious about it. Hoping that makes sense! :-) Siriusly Snapey Susan From tzakis1225 at netzero.com Sun Jul 4 18:14:07 2004 From: tzakis1225 at netzero.com (demetra1225) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 18:14:07 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104289 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > > Hey, everybody! Besides the lousy upbringing/12 years in Azkaban > explanations/rationales/excuses [take your pick], is there any way > Sirius can be defended against some of the points Demetra & Kneasy > have made?? > Demetra: You know, I'm still a little ambivalent on Sirius. I admit that there were times that I really liked him, particularly in GoF. But there are other instances that I think show his true nature to be an arrogant, bullying know it all who puts himself, his friends and others in danger. I have a hard time respecting him. I'm in the process of trying to put together a response to a few of the posts on this thread, but now have to run out to a 4th of July BBQ. > > Siriusly Snapey Susan...who *appreciates* someone else pointing out > that it's possible to like Snape AND Harry [thanks, Demetra]. Demetra: You're welcome. Hey we Cub fans have to stick together, right? From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 4 18:52:27 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 18:52:27 -0000 Subject: Boggart/ Patronus Musings - Quote Lupin In-Reply-To: <000401c46167$53ae15a0$6401a8c0@C3P0> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104290 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Maren Gest" wrote: > lziner wrote: > > >In POA, we never see Lupins Patronus just his boggart -the moon. > I've read some posts about James' Patronus - I'm just wondering > about the rest of the characters. > > > Maren: > > I've always thought that Lupin's Patronus would be a cloud...but in POA when Herm. is telling them all in the shrieking shack that Lupin is a wolf she mentions his Patronus representing an orbish figure.. hinting that its a moon. so there you have it.. his Patronus is a moon. > > "Maren Gest" Asian_lovr2: Sorry, Maren, but you should have done your homework before posting. In addition, let's remember that a Boggart form is something you fear, whereas a Petronus is something that protects and defends you. ---- Quote - Am Ed PB pg 346 --- Lupin speaks to Hermione- "... Did you check the lunar chart and realize that I was always ill at the full moon? Or did you realize that the BOGGART changed into the MOON when it saw me?" - - - End Quote - - - Does anyone have an edition that says something different? I think it would be very difficult to guess anyone's Patronus even with deep insight into that person. As far as a 'cloud' being Lupin's Patronus, so far all Patronus form have been animal. That doesn't preclude it being true, but certainly stacks the odds against it. As a side note; I don't think that a person's animagus for and their Patronus are necessarily the same. That doesn't mean they are never the same, I just think it is the rarer case. For what it's worth. Steve/Asian_lovr2 From kathleenjohnson at juno.com Sun Jul 4 17:18:41 2004 From: kathleenjohnson at juno.com (kljohnson7868) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 17:18:41 -0000 Subject: Harry will die In-Reply-To: <000d01c4611f$10e28e60$6401a8c0@C3P0> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104291 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Maren Gest" wrote: > I agree that it would be disappointing if Harry died. Sorry if I made it sound like Harry would kill himself, I don't think he's the type to do that... but I think it is possible that he will be defeated... IMHO, I think good will defeat evil. Having said that, I doubt Harry will remain alive by the end of the series. I think he will sacrifice himself to ensure Voldemort's death. Of course, it would be ironic, considering that Harry is known as "The boy who lived". Kathi kathleenjohnson at juno.com From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sun Jul 4 18:40:43 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 14:40:43 -0400 Subject: Goyle was not at MOM and is not in Azkaban Message-ID: <000a01c461f6$6ae702b0$54c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 104292 Potioncat: "How many of the 12 were named? (Sorry, I don't know the answer.) I also thought (think) Goyle wasn't there because as you say he wasn't named and usually we think of Crabbe and Goyle together. But we don't really know if he was there." Malfoy, Bellatrix Lestrange, Nott, Rudolphus Lestrange, Rastaban Lestrange, Crabbe, Jugson, Dolohov, Macnair, Avery, Rookwood, and Mulciber. Harry knew Malfoy, and the other names were spoken by Malfoy when he was giving them directions on which doors to go through to catch the DA members. Oddly, this is the first mention of Jugson (I think). He wasn't named with the DEs in GF, and he wasn't named in the escape from Azkaban chapter in OotP. I presume all but Bellatrix Lestrange went to Azkaban, but there really is no way to know that for sure. We know Bella went with LV, and Malfoy is in Azkaban because Draco says so. I can only presume DD put the rest under the Anti-Disapparation spell, as well, but who knows who may have made their escape before he got there. Also, I presume Nott may be under guard in St. Mungo's, depending on the severity of his injuries. Cathy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bethg2 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 4 18:55:20 2004 From: bethg2 at yahoo.com (bethg2 at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 18:55:20 -0000 Subject: Lupin and Harry ( was Movie PoA Foreshadows Books 6 & 7/search for father) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104293 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Diana" wrote: > As portrayed in the books [and in the movie by David Thewlis, I > might add], Remus purposely keeps himself emotionally distant from > Harry, and everyone else. It could be because he fell in love with > Lily and never got over her, or it could be because he does not want > to open himself up to Harry and get emotionally involved because he > is a werewolf and that would not be good for Harry and could be > dangerous, as shown later on. I'm leaning more towards the latter > reason. Lupin is shunned by most of the WW for being a werewolf and > I could see Lupin not wanting to drag Harry into this type of > existence with him. > Diana L.: > I believe Lupin's emotional reaction when Harry tells him that he > heard his dad's voice is because Remus *wants* to comfort Harry and > tell him everything about his parents and how well he knew James and > Lily and how much me misses his friends, but he won't....because > Lupin *must* remain emotionally distant from Harry. Look at it from > Lupin's veiwpoint - Harry can't come and live with Remus because > Remus is poor and most likely has no permanent home. Harry can't > rely on Remus to be there every time he needs him because Remus > turns into a full-fledged monster several nights every month. A > werewolf is so mis-trusted and shunned that Harry's prolonged > friendship with Remus would be to Harry's reputation's disadvantage > in the WW. Even though Harry wouldn't care one whit about what > others think, Remus would for Harry's sake. Remus keeps his > distance to protect Harry. Beth: Thank you for so nicely defending Remus, saved me a lot of typing. In addition to what you said I'd like to add some thoughts about his relationship with Harry. Through most of the interaction we have between Remus and Harry it is as Professor Lupin. Throughout the books the trio are always being reminded that it is "Professor" Snape so it only makes sense that this would transfer. Professor Lupin can't show favoritism to Harry as much as Remus might want to. I can only imagine that Minerva gave him quite a talking to on this very subject early in the term :- ) He is reluctant to give the extra lessons but probably figures that they would be legit tutoring and then he can spend more time with Harry. In the end when he is leaving he is able to step out of his Professor role and be more open with Harry and give him back the map. Then, when we next see him in OOTP things change a bit. He is obviously the leader of the advanced guard, greets Harry warmly with handshake, and tries to put Harry at ease. Later both Molly and Sirius accept him into the discussion of what Harry should be told as someone with a stake in Harry's care. It is Lupin that ends the conversation by telling Harry that he can't be in the Order. Lupin reminds him not to judge his father by the pensieve scene, while Sirius is intent on bashing Snape. Again, Lupin tells Harry that he must study occlumency while Sirius just blusters about Snape. In the MOM it is Lupin that keeps Harry from following Sirius through the veil and tries to explain to Harry what has happend despite his own grief. It is Lupin that helps Neville and intends to go back and check on the other kids. He is part of the group that tells off the Dursleys and asks Harry to keep in touch. Lupin has already found himself one of Harry's guardians. The relationship has developed much slower than Harry's immediate bond with Sirius, but that is largely based on their personalities. He treads the line between the Molly-coddling and Sirius's buddy-buddy stance quite well. I'll leave the implications of that between him and Sirius alone for now. I expect, and will be quite dissapointed otherwise, that Lupin and Harry are due for a talk in book six, one in which he tells Harry to call him Remus. Beth From yswahl at stis.net Sun Jul 4 19:49:21 2004 From: yswahl at stis.net (samnanya) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 19:49:21 -0000 Subject: Goyle was not at MOM and is not in Azkaban In-Reply-To: <000a01c461f6$6ae702b0$54c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104294 Potioncat: How many of the 12 were named? (Sorry, I don't know the answer.) Cathy Drolet --------------- Malfoy Bellatrix Lestrange Nott Rudolphus Lestrange Rastaban Lestrange Crabbe Jugson Dolohov Macnair Avery Rookwood Mulciber. Harry knew Malfoy, and the other names were spoken by Malfoy when he was giving them directions on which doors to go through to catch the DA members. Oddly, this is the first mention of Jugson (I think). He wasn't named with the DEs in GF, and he wasn't named in the escape from Azkaban chapter in OotP. samnanya ----------- 11 of the 12 have been previously identified --- appearing in previous books or earlier in oop. It was indeed the first reference of Jugson. So unless Goyle Sr's first name is Jugson, he was not at the Ministry of Magic. Crabbe was never identified by first name. Jugson Goyle ...... hmmm, if thats his name, no wonder he is nasty... From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Sun Jul 4 20:02:28 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 20:02:28 -0000 Subject: Harry will die In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104295 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kljohnson7868" wrote: > IMHO, I think good will defeat evil. Having said that, I doubt Harry > will remain alive by the end of the series. I think he will > sacrifice himself to ensure Voldemort's death. Of course, it would > be ironic, considering that Harry is known as "The boy who lived". > I agree, I think Harry is going to die in the end. Maybe Rowling will be able to make this a death that the readers will approve of or agree with, either because of a promise of happiness after death or because Harry himself will want to embrace death. But I think he's definitely going to die. Furthermore, I think his death is really the central point of Dumbledore's "plan" which he discussed with Harry at the end of OotP. That discussion was a bit unsatisfactory to me, mainly because Dumbledore said so explicitly that he was going to tell Harry "everything", yet in the end, I wasn't quite sure what he had been talking about. It's not just the carefully-worded and enigmatic prophecy - Dumbledore's own words seemed a bit less candid than I had expected after that buildup. However, after looking at it a few times, I've noticed a few things. At the very start of his narrative, he says that his primary objective after GH was to keep Harry alive, and for a very specific purpose: because he knew that Voldemort was not yet "vanquished", and if Harry didn't survive, nobody else would be able to do it when the time came. His personal feelings for Harry came later, to complicate matters. "I cared more for your happiness than your knowing the truth, more for your peace of mind than my plan, more *for your life* than the lives that might be lost if the plan failed." (emphasis added) So, he's still talking about Harry's life here, along with the other things - happiness, peace of mind, etc. It becomes a bit clearer in the next paragraph: "What did I care if numbers of nameless and faceless people and creatures were slaughtered in the vague future, if in the here and now you were alive and well, and happy?" I think that the "alive" outweighs everything else. Is is reasonable that Dumbledore, of all people, would hesitate between saving lives and causing one person unhappiness? That he would think that allowing others to be killed could be balanced by Harry having a happy, peaceful life? I don't think the average person would think that was a fair trade; but if it were Harry's LIFE against the lives of others he didn't know, THAT would be believable. Anyone might find that a trade they would shrink from - to trade the life of one person you love against numbers of people you'll never meet, even if it's the right thing to do. So I think Harry misunderstands Dumbledore at the end - he thinks that this is going to come down to a contest between him and Voldemort. It is, but it's a suicide mission. Dumbledore doesn't come out and say it like that, so I think that Harry might be thinking that his job is to kill or be killed, and that's bad enough for any kid. But he doesn't realize that in order for the plan to succeed, he CAN'T survive. He is doomed. Rowling will eventually explain how his death will also bring about Voldemort's "vanquishing", but that the two go together I have no doubt. In this case, it makes sense that Dumbledore COULD have told Harry at the end of PS, but didn't want to. Because the minute he knows what's in store for him, he will be divided from his friends, and all chance of a "normal" life will be over. He'll be living under a death sentence - how could he bear to be with his friends, knowing that they will go on to live lives, make plans, raise families, have careers, and none of that can ever be his? Dumbledore might well have reasoned that there was no harm in buying him an extra year of happiness; it's a bit of a fool's paradise, but still, the sacrifice hasn't beend demanded yet, so why not wait a year? Wanda From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sun Jul 4 20:07:29 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 20:07:29 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104296 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > > I thought I liked him; I thought I could *fairly* easily defend him > if I gave some time & thought to it. But you two have stunned me > into thinking I can't. I mean, saying he has a whim of iron [great > phrase] strikes me as so true, and it does seem to follow that if > faced with a personal stance that goes against good vs. evil, well, > *would* he make the tougher choice?? I'm not so sure. > Oi! None of that! Stick to your guns, you may yet be right. Just because there's a couple of posts that slipped past your guard, that's no excuse to give up on Sirius. What is needed is *proof* - and so far nobody's seen any. Persuasive verbosity is no match for eventual canon. Theories and suppositions are fun to construct but mean little unless JKR gives them the nod. As a leading light in the Sirius Protection League you can't falter now. Have you no faith in your hero? (And if I don't watch it, I'll be putting together pro-Sirius posts; just as an intellectual exercise, you understand.) Kneasy From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 4 20:07:56 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 20:07:56 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited. Character discussions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104297 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" < snip. > But if you're unhappy with my posts on Sirius then you have a choice - > ignore them or counter with canon. > > Nora picked up on my contention regarding intelligence. Good for Nora. > That's the sort of response I like. snip > Kneasy Alla: Kneasy, I love Nora's posts, but I was not thinking about Nora's post I posted almost simultaneously with her about you not giving an adequate rebuttal to the McGonagall statement. I think that Nora is perfectly capable of defending herself. I was defending MY position. Am I unhappy with your posts? Of course not, because if I were, it is my choice indeed whether to read them or not. I felt that your debating tactic in that message was not very fair, that is all. You basically rebutted with it is not true, because you feel that Mcgonagall would not say bad things about her students, whom she liked (even though few people commented later that she had absolutely no reason to like Sirius at that point in time) and I thought it was perfectly acceptable for me to express my disagreement with that . Now, back to Sirius. :) Kneasy: The "but I like him" "But he loves > Harry" and particularly the "Azkaban stunted his development" threads > don't exactly counter what I'm saying. If Sirius is dodgy, then he was > dodgy *before* going to Azkaban. That's when most of his disasterous > 'decisions' were made - before Azkaban. If he's bad, he was probably > bad even then. If he's not bad then we'll find out sooner or later and I'll > have to eat my words, but as things stand too many things don't add > up when I look at Sirius. Alla: Eh, as far as I remember responces "Azkaban stunted his emotional development", at least my responces of that variety were given in responce of POST-AZKABAN part of Sirius life. I think it is very reasonable to counter with that in responce to let's say "Why Sirius did not apologise to Snape in the Shrieking Shack?" I think it is also a reasonable responce to the Sirius confusing Harry and James in OoP, etc., etc. Before the Azkaban, yes, Sirius made his fair share of the disastrous decisions. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 4 20:20:16 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 20:20:16 -0000 Subject: Boggart/ Patronus Musings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104298 > Potioncat wrote: > I was wondering, back when I read JKR's answer about Snape's > Patronus and Boggart, whether she meant that to tell us would give > too much away about Snape or whether we would actually see them in > later books. And while she's said we'll get everything we need in > the next two books, I doubt we'll get everything we want. Alla: I know, personally I am not quite sure at all, that she will manage to squeese in the last two books, all the backstory I want to see. ;) I think we will definitely see Snape's patronus, because I doubt that Snape will sit Harry down to engage him in delightful chat over evening tea and tell him what his Patronus is. ;o) I think we will see it in action. Potioncat: > My vote would be DD for Snape's Patronus (giant bumblebee as I doubt > it could be a lemondrop :-) But I don't think it would be James for > the Boggart. It could be a Werewolf or it could relate to being a > DE. Alla: It definitely could be Dumbledore. I was thinking though that it would be Dumbledore or Lily in their human shapes, not some object that represents them. There is nothing in canon, which says that patronus cannot ne in Human shape, correct? From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 4 20:27:58 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 20:27:58 -0000 Subject: Harry will die In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104299 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" < snip. > I agree, I think Harry is going to die in the end. Maybe Rowling will > be able to make this a death that the readers will approve of or agree > with, either because of a promise of happiness after death or because > Harry himself will want to embrace death. But I think he's definitely > going to die. huge snip. Alla: I disagree. More and more with every statement of Rowling lately, I think that Harry is going to live at the end. (Well, I really want it to be true, but this is irrelevant, of course) Her recent statement on the website about "wording a prophecy very carefully", etc. tells me that she is planning to spare harry at the end. Of course, she can be bluffing. You never know with her, but I gues I'll just have to wait and see. BUT, having said all that I agree with the poster, whose name I don't remember who said that Harry will experience a symbolic death at the end. What will revive him - Snape's "stopper in death", Ginny's love, I don't know, but I believe that something will. From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Sun Jul 4 20:28:31 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 20:28:31 -0000 Subject: Some Serious points in favour of Sirius In-Reply-To: <20040704070301.29104.qmail@webmail30.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104300 Awesome post, Amey!! The Sirius you just described is the guy we all love and adore. I will be utterly disappointed in JKR if she does make him ESE! in Book 6 & 7, she had already done so with the cheesy title. But perhaps the whole fiasco with "Half Blood Prince" will be settled for me if JKR reveals a lot more of Sirius in the future books. HOpefully (knock on wood!) we'll get to see his love life -- "Pick me, Pick me!" I had mentioned this about a month ago, but I once had a dream that Sirius was dating Rita Skeeter's sister in OoP -- this was when I had just gotten the taste of Potterverse and went crazy obssessed, 'cause I'm not like that now... (yeah right) Bren, who really should get over a *presumably* dead fictional... sexy beast... handsome and rebellious... I mean character... --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amey Chinchorkar" > Amey: > Well I will state at first that sirius figures very high on my list of favourite characters, (of course there is competition for the top spot between DD and Hermione :)). So I am going to defend Sirius... > 1. Sirius was trusted highly by DD, he was a member of Order originally (though wormtail was also a member, so I can't think that counts much). > 2. Whatever happens, he is Godfather of Harry, and whatever time he gets to fulfill his duties, he has done that beutifully. He gives Harry support when it is needed, provides him with a mirror (I wonder if it is Marauders' product, highly possible) when he knows Harry needs to talk to him. The gift of Firebolt is his way of showing his affection (and not apology for attacking Ron as some suggested). He is caring and even though he hates Snape, he is shocked to hear that Occlumency sessions have stopped. He is the one person who gives proper news to Harry in summer through letters. > 3. He was arrogant, but so was James, even Snape (remmeber him calling Lily "Mudblood"?). But he wasn't given chance to come out of it by continuous hatred of Snape. I think living with Dementors (who suck all happy thoughts) left him with some sad feelings overall. > 4. As for the answer to the question why he went after wormtail after he found Potters dead is simple, given by DD. All knew Sirius was the Potters' SK, so only way to convince all is to get hold of the real SK and force him to tell the truth. After living in Azkaban for 12 years, he could only think of revenge (thanks to Dementors). > 5. The age he went into prison (mostly around 22), is not one when you are matured but starting the process, if you are living without much responsiblity (I can tell being the same age, and having not much responsibility being everybody's kid brother). Sirius was living alone, with only his friends for support, and no family, even no girlfriends (at least from what we have heard till this point, though I wonder how he got through the school without a girlfriend... him being so handsome, top of class, one of the most popular guys in year... I mean a mixture of Cedric and Fred-George). So he had very less time to know what is responsibility. > > I was going to add this to last post, but being Sirius, I think it got a bit long :), so thanks for bearing with me so far. Now I think I should sign off before it gets too long. But I will be back with more points for Sirius... > > Amey, who thinks that after all this argument on my point, JKR should not come up with something in 6 and 7 which blasts my whole theory... From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Sun Jul 4 20:45:25 2004 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 20:45:25 -0000 Subject: Injustice & corruption in the MoM (Was: Goyle was not at MOM & is not in Azkaban In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104301 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "samnanya" wrote: > Diana L. > We don't know for sure that Goyle wasn't one of the DEs arrested at the MoM, because Harry didn't know the identity of all the DEs that were there. All the DE's in the MoM were wearing masks as well, though several of them removed their masks during the chase for the prophecy ball. > If Goyle wasn't arrested at the MoM, then he would still have to > go 'on the lam', so to speak, to avoid being arrested, because Harry named him as a DE and the WW will believe Harry's story now because of Voldemort's personal appearance inside the MoM. > Samnanya responded: > Harry might indeed know if he was listening carefully at the door to Lucius Malfoy barking out orders for the death eaters to split into groups. THere were 12 de's there and if you check the names, Goyle was not among them. JKR spent a lot of words describing who went where, and Goyle was noticeable in his absence {so was wormtail, but that wasnt quite as glaring to me. Goyle and Crabbe are always describled together - like sons like fathers] Diana L.: Okay, Goyle wasn't at the MoM in OotP [thanks for all the names in the other posts!], however, I still think the WW would be inclined to lock him up and put him on trial for being a DE. Samnanya again: > Goyle would not need to go on the lam because he did not "commit a > crime". Last i recall, it is not a crime to assemble in a cemetary, even if you are welcoming the return of the dark lord. And it has been established that trials are necessary in the WW needed to prove guilt or innocence. Diana L.: I disagree on this one. The ministry locked up Hagrid in Azkaban without a trial in CoS, with Fudge even saying, "If it turns out it wasn't Hagrid, he'll be back and no more said." and "Not a punishment, Hagrid, more a precaution. If someone else is caught, you'll be let out with a full apology-" If Harry hadn't discovered Riddle's diary and convinced Dumbledore of the truth, who in turn convinced Fudge, Hagrid would still be locked up in Azkaban "as a precaution" with no trial in sight. The Ministry also locked up Sirius without a trial. In GoF, page 526 US edition hardback, Sirius says, "Oh I know Crouch all right," he said quietly. "He was the one who gave the order for me to be sent to Azkaban - without a trial." Don't forget that Fudge had also okayed the Dementors to suck out Sirius' soul, which is a punishment that surpasses the death penalty in cruelty. Look at the Ministry's treatment of Harry throughout OotP for another example of "guilty until proven innocent". The Minister of Magic himself, building on Rita Skeeter's article, encourages the belief that Harry is a deranged, attention-seeking liar. Fudge also plants a spy at Hogwarts in order to spy on and interfere with Dumbledore and Harry. Hardly the behavior of a political leader thinking in terms of justice. I think that visiting the Dark Lord in a cemetary to celebrate/acknowledge his return would indeed be viewed as a crime in the WW. At the very least, Goyle aided and abetted a known- murderer [Voldemort] and the MoM might think that Goyle, along with the other DEs, would know where Voldemort is and try to force him to tell them. Fudge said, "You are merely repeating the names of those who were acquitted of being Death Eaters thirteen years ago!" when Harry named "Avery - Nott - Crabbe - Goyle-" as DEs. This implies there was a trial or at least a hearing for Goyle in the past, which leads me to believe that Goyle could not be arrested and tried for perjury if he had testified for himself. Also, look at the non-prosecution deal Fudge made with Willy Widdershins in exchange for Willy's info about overhearing Harry Potter's first DADA meeting in the Hog's Head. McGonagall put it so succinctly. "Oh, so *that's* why he wasn't prosecuted for setting up all those regurgitation toilets!" said Professor McGonagall, raising her eyebrows. "What an interesting insight into our justice system!" The MoM is certainly corrupt and guilty of great injustices, not only under Fudge as the Minister himself, but under Barty Crouch Sr. many years before when Crouch was head of Magical Law Enforcement. In my opinion, Goyle deserves to be locked up in Azkaban, but expecting him to get a trial before going there? I don't see it happening in the MoM portrayed in PoA, GoF and OotP. Diana L. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sun Jul 4 20:47:54 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 20:47:54 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited. Character discussions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104302 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > Alla: > > > Eh, as far as I remember responces "Azkaban stunted his emotional > development", at least my responces of that variety were given in > responce of POST-AZKABAN part of Sirius life. > > I think it is very reasonable to counter with that in responce to > let's say "Why Sirius did not apologise to Snape in the Shrieking > Shack?" > > I think it is also a reasonable responce to the Sirius confusing > Harry and James in OoP, etc., etc. > > Before the Azkaban, yes, Sirius made his fair share of the disastrous > decisions. Yes, you were concentrating on Sirius post-Azkaban; that I'll readily concede. Being too smart for my own good I was attemping to put together a post that covered the range of responses regarding the Sirius thread, rather than sticking specifically to your points. (Taking the Admin request to heart about posting too much - better one generalised post than 4 or 5 individual responses.) As to the points above; Sirius/Snape goes waaaay back it seems. It's unlikely any reconciliation could work IMO; and with a highly emotionally charged event like the S.S. - no chance. Even if Sirius apologised, I doubt Snape would accept it. Not without passing some snide comment, which would only set things off again. Oil and water, those two. Does Sirius confuse Harry with James? Molly suspects so, but even with her it's not easy to determine if she thinks it's genuine confusion or wishful thinking on the part of Sirius. Probably the latter, if I had to make a guess, but that could be even more dangerous in the long run. Wishful thinking can be seductive; eventually you may believe something to be true because you want it to be true, plus the danger of unconsciously molding Harry in James' image. That would never work and might eventually alienate Harry. Kneasy From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Sun Jul 4 20:51:44 2004 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 20:51:44 -0000 Subject: Injustice & corruption in the MoM (Was: Goyle was not at MOM & is not in Azkaban In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104303 IMPORTANT corrections to my previous post! Diana L.: > Okay, Goyle wasn't at the MoM in OotP [thanks for all the names in > the other posts!], however, I still think the WW would be inclined > to lock him up and/OR put him on trial for being a DE. I put 'and/or' because I'm not confident the corrupt MoM as run by Fudge would bother with a trial anymore. Diana L.: > Fudge said, "You are merely repeating the names of those who were > acquitted of being Death Eaters thirteen years ago!" when Harry > named "Avery - Nott - Crabbe - Goyle-" as DEs. This implies there > was a trial or at least a hearing for Goyle in the past, which leads > me to believe that Goyle *COULD* be arrested and tried for perjury > if he had testified for himself. The 'not' should not have been been in the last sentence. From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sun Jul 4 21:35:55 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 21:35:55 -0000 Subject: Harry's special power, which leads to Dumbledore as the Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: <20040703222729.6423.qmail@web25106.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104304 Hans wrote: >Harry does have a > special power and it's not the power which he accidentally received from > Voldemort. I just can't understand how people can think that if Voldemort > had chosen Neville instead of Harry, the series would be called "Neville > L...and...". In none of the great liberating things Harry has done has he > made use of magic powers derived from Voldemort! Jen: Thanks for reading my post Hans--you've given me much to think about. I agree that Harry was meant to be the One and only one the Prophecy ever referred to. Some believe since it is a common theme in myth for the antagonist to use his ego to bring about his own ruin, that Voldemort attempting to kill baby Harry was the proverbial self-fulfilling Prophecy. This idea suggests that at the point Voldemort attempts to kill Harry, and marks him as his equal, that is the point at which Harry becomes the One in the Prophecy and not before. That theory is valid, but I guess emotionally it doesn't ring true for me, and what I expect from the series. Hans: > And what I love about Harry is his (true) modesty. In my mind true > modesty is not knowing, or not acknowledging, that you've done anything > special. I'm not talking about modesty where you know what you've done is > great, but you don't rub it in everyone's face. Modesty in my mind is not > worrying about whether you're doing great things. You just do what your > heart tells you - as Harry does. Jen: I probably bring this up too often, but I love the fact that JKR uses the Phoenix song in GOF to show us Harry's true nature. No matter what he's going through on the *surface*, the human/ego side of his life, underneath he is alwyas 'pure of heart'. The Phoenix song does not materialize out of thin air for just anyone, only the pure of heart. That whole scene was beautifully written. Hans: > I do take issue with one point Jen makes: >>Many times in interviews, > JKR or others talk about how Harry is every-boy, and that is why he's so > appealing. He's smart but not brilliant, makes many mistakes, and seems > special only in his ability to fly and aptitude for DADA. ***In spite of > this,*** I tend toward the first explanation, that Harry was indeed born > with an innate power to vanquish the Dark Lord, whether he chooses to > manifest it or not.<< > > "IN SPITE OF THIS"? But Jen, the whole point of the books is that > everyone, yes EVERYONE has the "innate power to vanquish the dark lord". > Harry is our example, our inspiration, the one we need to follow. All of us > have Voldemort within us. And all of us have the power to vanquish him. Jen: I don't understand your point here, even though I read your article in the files section. If you believe Harry was born special, and was the one and only one who could defeat Voldemort from birth, then why do you say here anyone could defeat Voldemort? Unless you mean this symbolically, that Harry was born with special power to defeat Voldemort (evil), and symbolically all of us are born to defeat evil in our own unique way? That Harry's unique way happens to be a really big deal and most of us will defeat evil in smaller ways across a lifetime? This was a little confusing to me. Anyway, thanks for your thoughts Hans. It's always a pleasure to read your posts! From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Jul 4 21:45:31 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 21:45:31 -0000 Subject: Goyle was not at MOM and is not in Azkaban In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104305 --- > samnanya > ----------- > 11 of the 12 have been previously identified --- appearing in previous > books or earlier in oop. It was indeed the first reference of Jugson. > So unless Goyle Sr's first name is Jugson, he was not at the Ministry > of Magic. Crabbe was never identified by first name. > Jugson Goyle ...... hmmm, if thats his name, no wonder he is nasty... Potioncat: I stand corrected and absolulety amazed that 12 names were given! I really thought we had one or two un-named DEs at the DoM. No, I doubt that Jugson is Goyle. Now, I wonder why he wasn't there....and I wonder what his role will be. Potioncat (who wonders how many fans it takes to really read these books?) From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sun Jul 4 22:09:42 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 22:09:42 -0000 Subject: Goyle was not at MOM and is not in Azkaban In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104306 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > --- > > samnanya > > ----------- > > 11 of the 12 have been previously identified --- appearing in > previous > > books or earlier in oop. It was indeed the first reference of > Jugson. > > So unless Goyle Sr's first name is Jugson, he was not at the > Ministry > > of Magic. Crabbe was never identified by first name. > > Jugson Goyle ...... hmmm, if thats his name, no wonder he is > nasty... > > Potioncat: > I stand corrected and absolulety amazed that 12 names were given! I > really thought we had one or two un-named DEs at the DoM. No, I > doubt that Jugson is Goyle. Now, I wonder why he wasn't > there....and I wonder what his role will be. > Potioncat (who wonders how many fans it takes to really read these > books?) Maybe he's the one they left behind injured in the prophecy room, that Hermione had stunned. "Harry put his ear close to the door to listen and heard Lucius Malfoy roar, 'Leave Nott, leave him. I say - his injuries will be nothing to the Dark Lord compared to losing that prophecy'" Valky From n2fgc at arrl.net Sun Jul 4 23:47:10 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 19:47:10 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Getting to Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104307 From: Steve [mailto:asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 17:02 | | asian_lovr: | | Keep in mind that only underage wizards and wizards who are too weak | or feeble would have to use Floo. The average adult wizard can | apparate directly to Diagon Alley. | | Still, Floo travel with heavy trunks and packages has to be very | difficult. My impression was that you had to keep you elbows tucked in | while you Floo traveled, per Ron's intructions to Harry, so you didn't | elbow other Floo travelers as you passed by. [Lee]: Upon re-reading that segment, all Ron says is to keep elbows in, not anything about banging another person, and not to fidget because one might fall into the wrong fireplace. I am going to infer that tucking the elbows in might be prudent to keep from catching on the wrong fireplace, or causing an imbalance in the "spinning" which might throw one into the wrong fireplace, slowing one down prematurely. Again, only suppositions. :-) [Steve]: | I think we can speculate many possible solutions, but I also suspect | that even the best of them will still be flawed. | | Just a thought. [Lee]: Another thought...The Leaky Cauldron must have been bigger since there are rooms to stay in and a private parlor or more, plus the main area one sees when one comes in from the Muggle London side...so there's obviously more space in there than that which is immediately perceptible. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me; | n2fgc at arrl.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Sun Jul 4 23:48:27 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 23:48:27 -0000 Subject: Return from the Underworld in Greek Mythology (Re: Sirius Black Poll) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104308 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mhbobbin" wrote: > griffin782002 wrote: > > I have my own thoughts about the veil. J.K.R. has used many elements > from ancient mythologies for her books. For example, > centaurs were wise and play an important part in Greek myths. ... Also > the ancient Greeks believed that a three-headed dog, known as > Cerberus, guarded the entrance to the Underworld, which they called > Hades. There are myths which tell the story of a hero that for some > reason has to 'visit' the > Underworld. Hercules has to go there in order to 'borrow' Cerberus for > one of his twelve tasks. Orpheus, a mythicmeal micisian went to take > back his dead wife. I wonder if the veil is a similar kind of > entrance. ... > > > mhbobbin writes: > > The Greek Mythology references are why I am in denial about death of > Sirius. Yes, he's dead, as JKR has indicated, but so were the > characters in Greek Mythology which JKR draws from. And we know now if > we don't have a body in JKR's world, the death is suspect. > > In addition to the two myths that griffin782002 mention, Heracles > goes to the Underworld to bring back Alcestis, and then there's the > story of Persephone, whose return from the underworld is negotiated > but who returns only half the year (Spring and Summer) because she has > eaten a pomegranate seed. That makes four different Greek myths about > return from the Underworld. > > We have in our story thus far the requirements for the task of going > into the underworld. I don't think that's coincidental. > > 1. We have the requisite motivated and brave hero in Harry. > 2. We know where the entrance to the underworld is. > 3. Our hero knows how to get past the large three headed dog. Fluffy > is either Cerberus or a close relative. Hagrid got Fluffy "from a > Greek chappie". And where is Fluffy these days? > 4. Harry mistakenly adds Pomegranate Juice to his potion on p363 , Ch > 17 of OoP. There's no mention of pomegranate anywhere but here, as an > error by Harry. By inserting this fruit with its mythological > association with Persephone and the Underworld into OoP, is JKR > planting a seed in our minds? > > Well, eventually we will see what happens. Bren now: Hmm. Let me add to the list of 4 "Return from the Underworld" (Hercules, Orpheus, Heracles, Persephone) -- if my memory serves correctly, Eros' wife Psyche goes to Underworld to borrow "the beauty box" (which contained sleep) from Percephone, as part of her 'redemption plan' to Eros and Aphrodite. You have presented your arguments neatly, and as a member of SAD DENIAL I wish that *so* much. But what I can't deduce from your canon is whether you believe Sirius will come back as good-old Padfoot! Sirius OR some other form. Judging by the fact that all 5 characters came back to life in their original body, I'd have to say you're arguing for the former. In that case I think unlikely. JKR has said that Sirius is really dead and death is final (speaking from personal experience perhaps?). And you must admit, the world JKR has created is far more real than Greek Mythology (GM) or other famous fantasy worlds. Potterverse doesn't mirror GM or King Arthur stories *exactly*. Sure, she has taken elements from them -- being a fantasy novelist she probably read them numerous times and consequently her imagination is somewhat encircled in that boundary. This is why I wouldn't necessarily use GM (eg. the 5 "dead-then-undead" characters) to support why Sirius will come back to life. To roughly borrow D-Dore's words, "death is the next adventure awaiting", and Headless Nick's, "[Sirius] would have moved on..." Sirius' life (especially the last few years and a decade before that) wasn't exactly the most desirable one and I doubt he would choose to come back, not in the traditional sense anyways. However, I do sincerely believe that Sirius will be back in different form. Am I alone in feeling that JKR just "dumped" the character SHORTLY after having gone through a whole lot deal of creating/complicating him? Yes, we all have enjoyed and LOVE him (to various degree), but it seems like a *waste* if Sirius didn't take part in the final master-plot of HP series, after... well after a whole book dedicated to him and another heavily dependent on him. What do you think? Bren From yutu75es at yahoo.es Mon Jul 5 00:28:13 2004 From: yutu75es at yahoo.es (fridwulfa hagrid) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 02:28:13 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Return from the Underworld in Greek Mythology (Re: Sirius Black Poll) References: Message-ID: <006401c46226$f78c8fc0$65386750@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 104309 > > > Bren (wrote): > > Hmm. Let me add to the list of 4 "Return from the Underworld" > (Hercules, Orpheus, Heracles, Persephone) -- if my memory serves > correctly, Eros' wife Psyche goes to Underworld to borrow "the beauty > box" (which contained sleep) from Percephone, as part of > her 'redemption plan' to Eros and Aphrodite. me (Fridwulfa): And don't forget Gilgamesh. He's not from the Greek mythology, but he went to the underworld to save his friend Enkidu. Once there, Enkidu told him he could not returno to the living world with him, but he had a chance to talk to his friend and say the final goodbyes. So... I think Sirius is dead for good, and he won't return to the "living world", but I'm pretty sure Harry is going to make an unexpected trip through that veil and meet his godfather again, and probably his parents too. And what he will learn while there will be capital to his defeating LV. Cheers, Fridwulfa From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Mon Jul 5 00:28:23 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 00:28:23 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited--what if? In-Reply-To: <000401c46108$44343000$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104310 "Sherry Gomes" wrote: > None of that is to say that Sirius wasn't rash and reckless. He > was all of that. But maybe, he would have become a better person, > if he had time and opportunity to live a normal sort of life. SSSusan: Now *this* I agree with. I have come to the conclusion that some of the Sirius Bashers are right on many counts, but I do think if Sirius had lived, and once the war had ended, he might've turned out to be a very decent kind of guy. I did enjoy him at times--I have no doubt he could be loads of fun to be around--and I appreciated his *desire* to be helpful to Harry. He was surly and dark cooped up in GP and not especially helpful to Harry when goading him to do dangerous things. But if he'd been able to be out & about, doing useful things, unburdened by Voldy's return and the prospect of a war, cleared fully & publically, I think he'd have been less likely to be so surly, reckless & rash, and more likely to have grown out of SOME of his rashness. There. THAT'S safe, then. No canon to turn to; all simply "what if"! :-) Siriusly Snapey Susan From lziner at yahoo.com Mon Jul 5 00:32:24 2004 From: lziner at yahoo.com (lziner) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 00:32:24 -0000 Subject: Lupin and Harry (search for father) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104311 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, bethg2 at y... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Diana" > wrote: > > > >(huge snip) I expect, and will be quite dissapointed > otherwise, that Lupin and Harry are due for a talk in book six, one > in which he tells Harry to call him Remus. > > Beth Yes...Yes...Yes!!! I loved your post! I think JKR killed Sirius because Lupin is a better father/mentor figure for Harry. Lupin would not interfere with Harry/Sirius while Sirius was alive. He would defer to Sirius' role of Godfather. He may give Siruis advice about Harry but he would never try and take the "front seat" from Sirius. However, with Sirius gone, Lupin is the last remaning tie to James/Lily. (you can't count Petunia - you can but who wants to)I will never buy the ESE Lupin theories. Instead, I think Harry and Remus will be together in the final showdown. Lets just hope they don't get killed. Also - I agree with the Lily/sister/friend not Remus in love with Lily. Remus has trouble with girls. (at least one would assume being a werewolf is not a big plus with the ladies - lots of fur but no money). Lily can give him the support his friends (being guys) cannot. At least that was my take on the bridge scene. LZ From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jul 5 00:32:41 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 00:32:41 -0000 Subject: Boggart/ Patronus Musings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104312 > Alla: > > It definitely could be Dumbledore. I was thinking though that it > would be Dumbledore or Lily in their human shapes, not some object > that represents them. > > There is nothing in canon, which says that patronus cannot ne in > Human shape, correct? Potioncat: I think all the patronae (um?) we've seen have been animals. Is that correct? I don't know if we've been told anything. I'm assuming a Patronus is like a Patron, and the animal symbolizes that father-like/family-like relationship. IIRC, Hermione's is an otter and I'm wondering if that reflects the Weasleys? I'm also assuming, having once conjured one, it stays constant. I would assume a Boggart would change as the individual changed. My thoughts, at any rate. Potioncat From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Mon Jul 5 00:32:46 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 00:32:46 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited--emotional maturity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104313 > Katie wrote: > > It seems to me (though I may well be wrong) that HP fans are > > often quite absolutist about the characters in the books. There's > > a tendency to see characters as overwhelmingly evil or good, > > begetting character assassination and complex theories (frequently > > involving charms and spells to affect personality) to justify > > a "good" character's morally ambiguous choices. My question is, > > why do we need characters to be overwhelmingly one thing or > > another, to a degree that would be unrealistic in real life? Hi Katie, I don't really figure myself for an absolutist regarding Sirius, In fact I can honestly say I percieve him in layers of goodness, misguidedness, self righteousness as well as intelligence sharp- wittedness (In fact I reckon he was exceptionally fast on the uptake at his best) incredible courage and conviction but verging on stupidity. However, and although I thoroughly agree with the statement made by others that Sirius' hotheaded and temperamental behaviour in OOP headquarters seemed entirely logical and not uncharacteristic at all, I still feel very strongly in favour of the 'Kreacher feeds Sirius a befuddlement draught' supposition, I don't know why it just makes an sinister amount of sense. Valky From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jul 5 00:39:03 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 00:39:03 -0000 Subject: Goyle was not at MOM and is not in Azkaban In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104314 Valky wrote: > Maybe he's the one they left behind injured in the prophecy room, > that Hermione had stunned. > > "Harry put his ear close to the door to listen and heard Lucius > Malfoy roar, 'Leave Nott, leave him. I say - his injuries will be > nothing to the Dark Lord compared to losing that prophecy'" Potioncat: I think that is Nott they are leaving. If it appears as you list it, he is saying "Leave Nott"...rather than "Leave, Nott" Which of course, leaves young Theo Nott in a precarious situation with no parents to take care of him. Potioncat From sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com Mon Jul 5 01:31:18 2004 From: sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com (sevenhundredandthirteen) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 01:31:18 -0000 Subject: Harry will die In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104315 Alla wrote: > I disagree. More and more with every statement of Rowling lately, I > think that Harry is going to live at the end. (Well, I really want it > to be true, but this is irrelevant, of course) > > Her recent statement on the website about "wording a prophecy very > carefully", etc. tells me that she is planning to spare harry at the > end. will. I agree with what you've said, Alla. I think Rowling is setting us up to believe that Harry will die, because at some point in the series Harry will believe that he has to die. That way, if Harry spends many long nights contemplating his own "essential" death we can't say 'But he's the main character, he *can't* die.' We will say 'JKR hinted this might happen.' If death is a real possibilty, then real suspense is created. (One of the reasons, when reading CoS for the first time, I was thinking 'Harry can't die! There's 20 pages to go! And isn't there another book after this one?) The question on her website states: "Q: The prophecy Harry hears in Dumbledore's office suggests to me that both he and Voldemort will have to die, is that true? A: Both Madam Trelawney and I worded the prophecy extremely carefully and that is all I have to say on the subject!" The very fact that she posted this question on her website confirms, for me, that it *won't* happen. Why would she post the secret to the whole series on her website? She could have very easily chosen to answer a question about the prophecy with far more ambiguous wording such as- 'Can you explain the prophecy to me?' in which the reply 'Both Madam Trelawney... etc' would have been equally applicable. She purposely rasied the concept of both Harry and Voldemort dying for a reason. However, in OotP Harry is yet to reach that conclusion. He still believes it has to be one or the other who will die. Why does she raise a possible explaination tot he prophecy when the main character is yet to reach it? I believe at some time during the course of the series, Harry will reach the same conclusion that some fans have- that both he and Voldemort will need to die. He will then have to come to grips will his own death, and will *willingly sacrifice* his own life to stop Voldemort. I think it will be much more powerful for Harry to stop Voldemort when he believes that he himself will also lose his own life. If, for instance, he reaches the conclusion that he will definitely not die in his battle against Voldemort, then it is robbed of danger and suspense. So, I think in order for the final battle between Harry and Voldemort to have as much impact as possible, we need Harry to walk into it believe this is the last hour of his life (A bit like him standing up from behind the grave at the end of GoF- he believes that he will die, so is prepared to to it fighting). Of course, I don't believe that he will actually lose it. I even think Dumbledore doesn't understand that Harry doesn't need to die, yet. This is the same reason why Rowling always slyly answers questions about whether she will write any books about Harry's children with the answer- 'But how do you know he will survive to have children?' I think we are meant to believe that Harry will die, because Harry will believe he has to die. He will believe that the only way he can end a meglomaniac's reign of terror is by sacrificing his own life, and true to his Gryffindor courage, he will eventually be prepared to meet that demand. Only, something about the wording of the prophecy will save him. So, I believe some time soon Harry will rethink his idea that 'his life must end in either death of murder' to something along the lines of 'he has to die, or else Voldemort will reign forever.' And then he will symbolically die, the main characters will believe him to be dead, we readers will also believe him to be dead (we have been prepared fro the possibilty by Rowling's 'hints') only for Harry to survive (Surprise!), all because there is Something About the Prophecy. ~<(Laurasia)>~ From sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com Mon Jul 5 01:51:27 2004 From: sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com (sevenhundredandthirteen) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 01:51:27 -0000 Subject: Snape's Patronus is Lily / Snape Penseive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104316 Alla wrote: > I am now thinking that Snape's Patronus could be Lily (if Snape > indeed had feelings for her) and Snape's Boggart could be James. What a fabulous idea! Imagine the emotional scarring of Harry realisng that Lily if Snape's happiest memory! (And James tormenting him is one of his worst). I think this is especially likely, because although Harry feels deep pity for Snape after soming out of the Penseive in OotP, at the end of the book he still passionately 'will never forgive Snape.' I always thought this was a little, well, contrived. I thought it was incredibly immature for Harry to persist in his hatred of Snape after all he'd seen that year. I personally would have thought it would be more fitting for Harry to have immediately apologised for the behaviour he witnessed in the Penseive, before ducking the projectile jars coming towards his head. Clearly, some kind of understanding between Harry and Snape needs to occur. So, I think JKR is waiting for a more significant monment for Harry to risk all and say sorry to Snape for everything his father did. Clearly, book five of a seven part series is not the right time. But, onto the Patronus!Lily- if there's another instance that will caused such a powerful split desire as the Penseive scene did in OotP, it would have to be Harry seeing his mother in a silvery form shielding Snape and himself from some Dementors. The Penseive scene made Harry pity Snape, but he still hates him. Seeing his mother would again cause Harry to pity/like/empathise with Snape, yet hate his guts for even looking at his pure innocent mother. It would on one hand create a deep understanding between the two characters, but on the other, make Harry so angry that Snape has human emotions- like love for a woman- *his* mother. If Harry will eventually apologise to Snape for his father's behaviour, he will eventually allow him to love Lily in peace, despite the fact hat both actions will mean giving peace to a man he hates vehemently. I think when the Dementors flee Azkaban, freeing Death Eaters as they go, eventually some will encounter Harry again- will his sole Patronus be enough to protect him and all those with him? Or will Snape have to step next to him, so they will battle a common foe together? I think, yes. And wouldn't it be splendid if StagPatronus! James and Patronus!Lily could once again stand side by side in battle! ~<(Laurasia)>~ From mhbobbin at yahoo.com Sun Jul 4 20:37:15 2004 From: mhbobbin at yahoo.com (mhbobbin) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 20:37:15 -0000 Subject: Movie PoA Foreshadows Books 6 & 7 (other than Lupin-related) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104317 mhbobbin writes: The Remis situation is all very interesting but back to JKR's comment that she found that the film PoA inadvertantly foreshadowed Books 6 & 7--- I was wondering if anyone had any other thoughts on two other possible foreshadowings (below), or any additional ones, not related to whatever secrets Lupin might be keeping. Stonehenge: Through Book 5, Stonehenge is not mentioned by name. It is, to my knowledge, only foreshadowed in Book 5--if I'm reading the tea leaves right. In OoP, there is some foreshadowing that we might be headed to Stonehenge--the reference to Wiltshire on Page 307; the release of OoP on June 21, the many references to circles and stones. PoA was largely filmed by the time of the release of Book 5, and certainly the sets were finished. In the film of PoA we see Stonehenge-like monoliths. I wonder if that is what JKR is referring to. Wouldn't we be disappointed if an English Mystery about Wizards didn't take us to the most famous mysterious site in England? Dementors: Targeting Harry specifically as early as PoA? Certainly in the books, it's an open question whether or not the Dementors want to get Harry too. In the film, they seem to really want to get him. It's not till Book 5 that we see the Dementors again, sent on purpose. Is it possible that the Dementors were playing a double role earlier? On their own or under instruction? Any other ideas on foreshadowing that might have inadvertently been revealed in film that JKR is referring to? From plinker at yahoo.com Sun Jul 4 21:11:32 2004 From: plinker at yahoo.com (Plinker) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 21:11:32 -0000 Subject: Harry's first Kiss Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104318 If you think back to book one, or the first movie, there seems to be a special bond or something concerning a handshake. What it is I really don't know. However if there is a certain bond or something attached to a handshake, a kiss, I believe has a little more importance than we understand. This was Harry's first kiss,(Cho), the first sign of affection from another person other than gifts (owl or broom), his first intimate contact. I believe his was more powerful than we realize and may prove to be of great importance later. Cho already affected Harry's moods greatly. This affection is not over, not by a long shot. From plinker at yahoo.com Sun Jul 4 21:41:14 2004 From: plinker at yahoo.com (Plinker) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 21:41:14 -0000 Subject: Harry Will Not Die.... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104319 Fudge will die. Snape will die, Dumbledore will probably die. McGonagall will be headmistress at Hogwarts (she sits at Dumbledore's right side). Arthur Weasley will replace Fudge. Hagrid will become a full wizard and be over Magical Creatures at the MOM. Ron and Hermione Weasly will live at Hogwarts, where after a successful Quidditch career, Ron will oversee the matches at Hogwarts, his wife Hermione, will teach potions and be over Ravenclaw house. Neville will become one of the greatest Aurors of the age. Draco Malfoy will become keeper of keys and grounds at Hogwarts and live in Hagrids old hut. Fred and George will become filthy rich selling practical jokes. Percy will work for his dad. Harry, after a stint at MOM, will return to his beloved Hogwarts with his wife Cho, and be a truly fine Dark Arts teacher.He will be over Gryffidor house. After all Hogwarts is the only home Harry has ever loved. From lavaluvn at yahoo.com Sun Jul 4 22:20:07 2004 From: lavaluvn at yahoo.com (lavaluvn) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 22:20:07 -0000 Subject: Boggart/ Patronus Musings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104320 snip> > > eternal_riddle: > I think that the shape of a Boggart changes through the life of a > person, so we can talk only about the shape of a Boggart at a > certain time, lets assume end of OoP. > Black's Boggart could very well be a dementor after the 12 years he > has spent in Azkaban. His Patronus could be a stag since James was > the person he trusted most in his life. > When it comes to Snape, his Boggart should be rather Sirius than > James if it is one of them. If I'm honest, I don't think it is > either of them. What Snape should fear most at the moment is being > exposed as a spy be some DE. > Snape's Patronus could be DD. When it comes to Snape, we really don't > know that much about him, so it is very hard to judge. It could be > his mother because she could have protected him against his father, > who knows? Andromeda: But aren't Patronuses (Patroni?) animals? The only ones we've seen have been real animals. Stag, otter, swan... any others? And just out of curiosity, is it possible that Snape couldn't even conjure a Patronus, under duress? After all, he's about as joyless as they come and doesn't seem to have a lot of happy memories.... Cheers, Andromeda From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Sun Jul 4 22:20:27 2004 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 22:20:27 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited--emotional maturity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104321 SSSusan: > Isn't this similar to Harry's young life? [snip] > And yet, when it comes to emotional maturity, it seems Harry > is ahead of Sirius. He's NOT an arrogant git, attacking schoolmates > just because he can/they exist. He's NOT setting people up like > Sirius did Snape with the prank. I guess I'd ask, why isn't Sirius > as mature as Harry?? I suppose my answer- and it's going to sound weak, but it's something I believe- is that people can (and often do) have exactly the same experiences without behaving in the same way. I rarely ever think about the Dursleys because they seem such absurd caricatures to me; it's very hard to take them seriously. Though you're right, they are incredibly abusive... and that's before Harry experiences any of the horrors at Hogwarts. Yet Harry seems entirely unaffected by this experience, except possibly that he seems far more compassionate toward others than most boys his age. Harry seems like an exceptional case to me. To quote a button I've seen, "not all abused orphans grow up to be wizards." (By the way, speaking of "attacking schoolmates just because they exist", why on earth does James behave the way he does? He seems honestly quite sadistic in the Pensieve scene to me, yet he doesn't get .1% of the criticism that Sirius does.) > Do you think these things could be enough to "explain away" Sirius? > Again, I keep thinking of Harry. We see him become quite surly and > angry, even resentful in OoP--something which seemed quite natural & > understandable to me--and yet he somehow doesn't seem as immature or > selfish as Sirius on occasion. [I'm thinking, for example, of how > Sirius, as an adult, goads Harry by saying his *father* would've > taken the risks Harry's declining to take.] Is that a fair > comparison to make? I don't know that I want to "explain away" Sirius. Certainly he seems to be a flawed and damaged human being. But (as I said rather snippily in another post) I don't know what better reasons there can be. There's nothing in cold, hard facts to fully explain his behavior, but then again, there's nothing that can fully explain *anyone's* behavior. If he is depressed (and I think he is), that would affect his behavior substantially. I'm sure we've all done regrettable things, and Sirius has definitely done more than most, but I'm not willing to consign him to the "bad person" pile just yet :) As to Sirius's "father" comment: I think he's lonely, and he's trying to manipulate Harry in the best way he knows how. A bad idea? Absolutely, but I don't think he's trying to hurt Harry. And this comment doesn't strike me as too selfish, given that the risks involved are risks primarily to *Sirius*, not Harry. (Compare this with the far more vicious Prank. Sirius's actions there, I'd say, are indefensible, and I have no wish to excuse him from that.) > --it may be that you're not really inclined to do any kind of > comparing of Harry to Sirius. And that's fine, because I'm not > challenging you so much as I'm just curious about it. Hoping that > makes sense! :-) I don't mind comparing Harry to Sirius, and I think you bring up some excellent, truthful points. I'm just of the opinion that Harry behaves far more nobly than could be expected or demanded of any kid with his upbringing. -Katie From escapist at bigpond.net.au Mon Jul 5 00:13:16 2004 From: escapist at bigpond.net.au (escapist) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 10:13:16 +1000 Subject: Boggart/ Patronus Musings Message-ID: <002701c46224$ded9fff0$f6122dcb@patrick0am3c6c> No: HPFGUIDX 104322 Potioncat: My vote would be DD for Snape's Patronus (giant bumblebee as I doubt it could be a lemondrop :-) But I don't think it would be James for the Boggart. It could be a Werewolf or it could relate to being a DE. Escapist: This is actually my first post so my apologies if I have done something wrong or someone has also come up with this theory before. I don't have any ideas as to what Snape's patronus would be, but I have considered his Boggart. I think it's possible his Boggart could be himself, but perhaps his younger self when he was a DE. Or maybe his dad, and since Harry saw (what I presume to be) Snape's father in the pensieve, it would be interesting to have Harry understand who it was when other people witness to it were clueless. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mayeaux45 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 5 00:35:22 2004 From: mayeaux45 at yahoo.com (mayeaux45) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 00:35:22 -0000 Subject: Movie PoA Foreshadows Books 6 & 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104323 My message is short and sweet. I'm determined to see the movie several more times to make sure I catch all the context clues Alfonso put in. JKR said in an interview that 'the hair on her neck was standing on end while watching the movie' She got chills! Alfonso went on to say that it was purely his intuition after reading the books that these "things" would happen. Clue 1) Draco Malfoy will be killed. Clue 2) There is a foreshadowing "love triangle" between Harry, Hermione, and Ron. The decision is all Hermione's and no one elses. It's up to her in the end who she will choose. Clue 3) Sirius all but says to Harry that he can always contact him (but how, we have yet to find out). Clue 4) Hermione's wand is mysteriously powerful! We still have no idea what the core is in her wand. Clue 5) As stated by someone else already...Remus is holding some important information that has yet be told to Harry about the past. More to come....Let me know what you think so far. From roulston112131 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 5 00:40:46 2004 From: roulston112131 at yahoo.com (Ruth Roulston) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 17:40:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Who is the Half Blood Prince? Message-ID: <20040705004046.93230.qmail@web52205.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104324 Ruth here: Theories on Book Six: 1. The Half Blood Prince is probably a new character we haven't met yet, or: 2. The Half Blood Prince could be Viktor Krum. We know little of his background and Prof. Karkaroff was unusually considerate of Krum's welfare during GOF, or: 3. The unknown Half Blood Prince could arise from the Chamber of Secrets. Bear with me on No. 3. If the Tom Riddle memory and the Basilisk were the only things connected with Book Two, why wasn't it called "The Secret Chamber" instead of the plural "Secrets"? When the Weasley twins explain the Marauder's Map to Harry, they tell him that they used to use a certain tunnel under Hogwarts but it's been caved in, blocked. What blocked it? My guess is the rebounding curse of Professor Lockheart using Ron's damaged wand and the subsequent rockslide that separated Harry from Ron. It suggests that there may have been more than one entry to the Chamber of Secrets, and that the Chamber contained more secrets than just Tom Riddle and the Basilisk. And you needn't be a Parselmouth to access it. The Weasley twins may simply have followed the easiest path and ignored the movie-oriented doorway to Salazar Slytherin's secret chamber. Why the Marauder's Map could discern the tunnel and none of the elder wise wizards could - well, that's anyone's guess. Our favorite author is so capable of introducing new facets to this wonderful story, nothing would surprise me in Book Six. I look back on all the serious group discussions of the cover art for Book Five before the book's release, on the candle flames and Harry's lefthand wand, etc., and I believe that JK Rowling is going to out-guess us all. This is why we anticipate her next book so fervently. If you are on intent on pre-determining Rowling's plot, then you must Think! Focus! And Concentrate! And you still won't get it right. Dr. Rowling is a master writer, and I for one am delighted that she has tugged me into her charming and devious wizarding world. Ruth aka Professor M. McGonagall --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aandj at labyrinth.net.au Mon Jul 5 00:47:59 2004 From: aandj at labyrinth.net.au (Jocelyn Grunow) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 11:47:59 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius revisited. Character discussions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104325 on 4/7/2004 10:39 PM, arrowsmithbt at arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com wrote: > Was that a slip, or a deliberate phrasing? - "see themselves as evil" > Who sees themselves as evil in canon? Sirius? Snape? Fudge? Malfoy? It was deliberate. I tend to think that very few people actually see themselves as evil. I think Robert Heinlein said something about 'inside our heads we are all wearing the White hat' - we are all the heroes of our own story, and we rearrange our memories if necessary to preserve this illusion. Obviously some people do deliberately don the black hat, but most people excuse themselves of bad acts by saying 'what was there to be gained by refusing him?', 'I was under orders', 'if it wasn't me it would have been someone else' - you know what I am talking about. They see their own behaviour as that of a good - or at least average - person who was in a jam, or doing their best. This leads to some very interesting shades of grey. Where do these people cross the line to become evil? When are they past redemption? A topic for another time, maybe. > It's down to us, I think, to draw our own conclusions - at least until > all is revealed. Do our life experiences matter when considering the > books? I was actually meaning to respond to the part of the question about why so many HP fans see things in 'black and white'. I think that whilst character determines a lot of this, so does life experience, and naturally that is also linked to age. In other words I am saying that if there seems to be a greater than expected predominance of b&w views of the books it may be because there are a greater number of younger people on the site. And OF COURSE life experience matters when we consider the books! I am sure you are playing devil's advocate with this one! We all interpret what we see through our own thoughts and experiences. And we are here to share those interpretations. As you say: >There have been a couple of posts recently that seem to dismiss >this [speculation] as pointless and/or boring. I find this puzzling. What else >is the site for? To pick a simple example, I have a 17month old baby. My idea of how a parent of a baby that age behaves is based a lot on my own experience - I relate to Lily & James as the good parents I also see myself as. Hence one of my first posts about parents choosing a guardian for their baby. I cannot guarantee the validity of my insight, but my opinion is firmly rooted in this experience. Jocelyn From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 5 02:30:24 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 02:30:24 -0000 Subject: Boggart/ Patronus Musings In-Reply-To: <002701c46224$ded9fff0$f6122dcb@patrick0am3c6c> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104326 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "escapist" wrote: snip. I don't have any ideas as to what Snape's patronus would be, but I have considered his Boggart. I think it's possible his Boggart could be himself, but perhaps his younger self when he was a DE. Or maybe his dad, and since Harry saw (what I presume to be) Snape's father in the pensieve, it would be interesting to have Harry understand who it was when other people witness to it were clueless. Alla: Oh, I love this one too. If Snape's Boggart is himself, then he is really much more guilt ridden and emotionally messed up than I was willing to consider. That would also mean that he had done some really, really bad things in his past. From pandrea100 at hotmail.com Mon Jul 5 01:39:08 2004 From: pandrea100 at hotmail.com (pandrea100) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 01:39:08 -0000 Subject: Significance of Names: Ginevra, In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104327 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aboutthe1910s" wrote: > I've been thinking a lot about the significance of names lately, > particularly the name Ginevra, as that's a relatively new piece of > information. Taking the name in context with the other Weasley's > names, I'm assuming that, if there is an allusion here, the allusion > is to Ginevra, the princess of Scotland from the opera Ariodante. > (The other only other real option I can think of would be the portrait > by da Vinci.) There is a character called Ginevra in the book Villette by Charlotte Bronte. I don't particularly see how it would be relevant though; she is a giddy snobbish flirty type. Pandrea ADMIN NOTE: If you wish to comment on Villette or Charlotte Bronte without relating the discussion to Ginny's name or HP in general, please post to our sister list, HPFGU-OTChatter. Responses relating to the significance, if any, of Ginny's Christian name should be posted here. Thanks! From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Mon Jul 5 01:59:15 2004 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 01:59:15 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited--emotional maturity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104328 Valky: > However, and although I thoroughly agree with the statement made by > others that Sirius' hotheaded and temperamental behaviour in OOP > headquarters seemed entirely logical and not uncharacteristic at > all, I still feel very strongly in favour of the 'Kreacher feeds > Sirius a befuddlement draught' supposition, I don't know why it just > makes an sinister amount of sense. Katie: Hmm... Sirius doesn't really seem befuddled to me. Not that I'd put it past Kreacher to slip him a potion (wouldn't put anything past Kreacher) but why do you think so? -Katie From pandrea100 at hotmail.com Mon Jul 5 01:39:54 2004 From: pandrea100 at hotmail.com (pandrea100) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 01:39:54 -0000 Subject: Harry & Voldemort, wands and similarities/differences In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104329 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Diana" wrote: > The difference between Harry and Voldemort, so far, is what Harry > does with his anger. True so far, but I think the real big difference between how Harry develops and how Tom developed will be Sirius' death. The guilt and lessons from this will change Harry, he will never again act so rashly. Tom never got to learn this lesson. Well, that's one way I think Book 6 could go - I suppose the other is Harry being even MORE angry and alienated. But I feel that we saw this side of him sufficiently in Book 5. > Another major difference is that Voldemort is terrified of > dying and Harry is not. > Welcoming death is something Voldemort will NEVER do. I think that this is a huge part of Voldemort's character. I would love to know what made him so obsessed with conquering death - I mean, his dark magic route could have taken him another way, he could have become obsessed with ruling the world or something. Sure, he would have liked to do that too, but it seems that what he's most focused on is simply beating death. Is this because his mother died? Pandrea From pandrea100 at hotmail.com Mon Jul 5 01:40:10 2004 From: pandrea100 at hotmail.com (pandrea100) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 01:40:10 -0000 Subject: CHAP DISC: Chapter 21, Eye of the Snake - The Kiss In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104330 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: Personally, I like Harry's version of love, and I think far far more > kids can relate to Harry than can relate to teen relationships > typically portrayed in the media. I think it's also that, simply, a lot of children who read the books don't WANT to read about kissing - ewww, icky, etc. Especially given that the books are notable for being read by boys too. Certainly JK wants to cover the subject of teen relationships and feelings, but she wants to do it in a way that is both true but not off-putting to her readers. I think she does an extraordinary job of this. > It certainly didn't take Harry a > half hour to walk down the hall. > Cho crying or not, that must have been some kiss. No, I think it just took a minute or so, but then he wandered about in a daze before finding his way to the common room. Or maybe she left and he sat there stunned for 25 minutes. Poor Harry. Pandrea From pandrea100 at hotmail.com Mon Jul 5 01:41:46 2004 From: pandrea100 at hotmail.com (pandrea100) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 01:41:46 -0000 Subject: Human's Emotions vs. Dogs (Re: Sirius revisited) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104331 Bren wrote: > I'm afraid I must correct you, Kneasy. Emotions are not simple at > all. You give a much more scientific argument for this than I could, but basically I agree because of how the Patronus works. Harry has to conjure a SPECIFIC happy memory and it has to be a strong enough one to have enough power behind it; general happy thoughts (sunshine, ice cream, playing Quidditch) don't work. I don't think an animal (even supposing it could do magic) could manage that - the happiness of chasing a cat or gnawing a bone is too generic, compared to Harry's choice of seeing his much-longed for parents finally. And conversely, animals' bad thoughts are much simpler - physical pain, hunger - than humans': grief, embarrassment, disappointment, etc. Of course, Sirius-as-a-dog still has human thoughts, enough to control his actions, but it seems rational to me that they could be dampened down, like someone on tranquilisers or something. As an example, let's say Sirius' favourite food normally is sushi. As a dog, is he going to crave sushi, or more doggy type food like steak or bones? I would think the latter. Or, let's say he sees an attractive woman (or man, if you like the slash stories) while in dog form - he may realise that she is attractive, but he's not going to be attracted TO her, because, well, he's a dog. So in animal form, his animal nature has to override his human one at various points, while still allowing him to know that, eg, he has to go to a particular place to hide out. Pandrea From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 5 02:45:43 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 02:45:43 -0000 Subject: Snape's Patronus is Lily / Snape Penseive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104332 > Alla wrote previously: > > I am now thinking that Snape's Patronus could be Lily (if Snape > > indeed had feelings for her) and Snape's Boggart could be James. Lauraasia: > What a fabulous idea! Imagine the emotional scarring of Harry > realisng that Lily if Snape's happiest memory! (And James tormenting > him is one of his worst). snip. Alla: Thanks for the compliment. I loved your post very much. It is beatifully written. Even though I strongly disagree with the first part of it Lauraasia: I thought it was incredibly immature for Harry to persist > in his hatred of Snape after all he'd seen that year. I personally > would have thought it would be more fitting for Harry to have > immediately apologised for the behaviour he witnessed in the > Penseive, before ducking the projectile jars coming towards his > head. Clearly, some kind of understanding between Harry and Snape > needs to occur. So, I think JKR is waiting for a more significant > monment for Harry to risk all and say sorry to Snape for everything > his father did. Alla: I don't know if you read my many other posts on this subject, if you did not - the brief summary of my position is that no matter how wrong Harry was in looking into Snape's pensieve, and he was WRONG, I place the main blame on Snape for not resuming Occlumency. I really don't want to go into more details now. :) (Message 100506 or 100606, I forgot again the exact number, if you are interested, started the thread "Who is the adult) I'll just say that I absolutely don't think that Harry should have apologised for what James did to Snape. Harry should have apologised for looking into pensieve, that's it. Everybody is responsible for their own actions. But, I also believe that some kind of understanding between them will occur at the end. Laurasia: > But, onto the Patronus!Lily- if there's another instance that will > caused such a powerful split desire as the Penseive scene did in > OotP, it would have to be Harry seeing his mother in a silvery form > shielding Snape and himself from some Dementors. The Penseive scene > made Harry pity Snape, but he still hates him. Seeing his mother > would again cause Harry to pity/like/empathise with Snape, yet hate > his guts for even looking at his pure innocent mother. It would on > one hand create a deep understanding between the two characters, but > on the other, make Harry so angry that Snape has human emotions- > like love for a woman- *his* mother. Alla: Harry did not hate Snape after the Pensieve scene. He only pitied him. "he will never forgive Snape, ever..." occurs after Sirius' death. So, I think that if Harry sees Lily shielding Snape from the Dementors, he will pity him more. I don't think that it will make him more angry at Snape than he is now. Is that even possible? :) From pandrea100 at hotmail.com Mon Jul 5 01:41:59 2004 From: pandrea100 at hotmail.com (pandrea100) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 01:41:59 -0000 Subject: Harry's special power, which leads to Dumbledore as the Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: <20040703222729.6423.qmail@web25106.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104333 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Hans Andr?a wrote: And why do > people love him? Because he truly cares about the people around him. I agree and as I was just rereading Chamber of Secrets (part of the frenzied interpretation of the Book 6 clues), I have another example which had slipped my mind. Despite all the problems in his own life, when Sir Nearly Headless Nick happens to mention his disappointment about not getting into the Headless Hunt, Harry is moved to say "I wish there was something I could do to help". And it's not just the standard politeness, he actually goes (with Ron & Hermione) to the ghost's feast, passing up a much more fun party - all this unselfishly for someone who isn't even alive. There's absolutely nothing in it for him. In fact all three of the main trio have this quality, think of all the efforts they make for Hagrid's various nutty creatures, despite not even agreeing with him about them. Pandrea From pandrea100 at hotmail.com Mon Jul 5 01:47:16 2004 From: pandrea100 at hotmail.com (pandrea100) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 01:47:16 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Cemetery and Hogwarts: A History In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104334 Carin wrote: > > I've already declared for GG as HBP, and I agree that we are long > overdue for learning some of what's in _Hogwarts: A History_. JKR and > Hermione have been teasing us with that book for five books now and I > WANT TO READ IT!!! (Sorry for shouting in frustration :) I definitely think that book is going to be important, it has been referenced so many times, most frequently as a joke which could be a sneaky way of foreshadowing it. I suggest that at some point some information in it will be vital, thus justifying Hermione's constant referral to it. It would be particularly sweet if it is Harry or Ron who remembers it, having finally read it after she nagged them for so long. One fact that the book contains is that you cannot apparate or disapparate on Hogwarts grounds. Well, maybe there's a reason for that which the book explains - something to do with Gryffindor and Slytherin's fallout? Maybe Slytherin slithered back in using apparation and did something? And afterwards Gryffindor & co made sure it could never happen again. Incidentally, another question I'd like answered is why the three remaining Founders carried on having a Slytherin House. Since they didn't believe in its precepts, why not disband it and divide up students between the three of them from then on? Either the school was created in such a way that it was not possible, or it truly served a good purpose to have a Slytherin House - if so, what? From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Sun Jul 4 21:41:03 2004 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 21:41:03 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104335 Demetra wrote: > Hey, everybody! Besides the lousy upbringing/12 years in Azkaban > explanations/rationales/excuses [take your pick], is there any way > Sirius can be defended against some of the points Demetra & Kneasy > have made?? Katie now: Um, what exactly would you like? What would this sort of defense constitute? Go on, try to defend Snape without using rationales or excuses. I have no idea what that sounds like, and I'd love to hear it. My point is that I don't think some of the posters who don't like Sirius will *ever* concede a point unless J.K. Rowling comes right up to them and says they're wrong. You know, I'm not sure they'd be satisfied even then. -Katie From mayeaux45 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 5 01:19:52 2004 From: mayeaux45 at yahoo.com (mayeaux45) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 01:19:52 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry and Hermione Foreshadowing in PoA movie? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104336 Could it be that Harry and Hermione will end up together before the end of the series? JKR has already gone on record in an interview in late May saying that 'the hairs on the back of her neck were standing on end' She actually got chills watching the movie! She couldn't believe that Alfonso had predicted as many things as he did. Which leads me to the main question...Harry and Hermione? First of all Alfonso decides for a close up shot on Hermione whenever Harry comes down stairs to greet them while staying at the Leaky Cauldron. Second, Alfonso so cleverly puts an homage to Y tu Mama Tambien in the movie by having the three young stars console each other at the execution of Buckbeak. Note: Harry is consoling Hermione and Hermione is holding on to Ron, but who is Ron consoling...? No one! Before I go on, let me just add that there are some clues to Ron and Hermione as well, but we're focusing on Harry and Hermione at this particular time. Moving on... The third clue is when Alfonso has Hermione fall onto Harry when entering the Whomping Willow tree (that's not in the books)! Clue Four, Harry and Hermione are holding each other's hands at many points in the movie (even at times when it is not needed... Ex: going up the stairs to the Shrieking Shack, running through the forests, and so on)!!!! Clue Five, the music that was chosen for each scene is amazing. Alfonso is known for his attention to detail. When Harry and Hermione were sitting down waiting for 'themselves' to come out of the whomping willow, the imagery and music that was playing was really "magical" (almost romantic?) The camera pans from the birds that were flying from the sky towards Harry and Hermione sitting under the tree. Clue Six, Hindsight is 20/20...think about that! (The Time Turner)...draw your own conclusions about this one. Clue Seven, the position in which Harry and Hermione were sitting underneath the tree. Hermione was sitting slightly behind Harry. The way in which she looked at him was foreshadowing all on its own. NOTE: I'm also a fan of Ron/Hermione, so I'm not really biased with the whole Harry/Hermione relationship! Just wanted all you R/Hr fans out there to know that. But you have to admit...the clues are there (in the movie and especially after OotP). Let me know what you think! "mayeaux45" From caseylane at wideopenwest.com Mon Jul 5 02:04:45 2004 From: caseylane at wideopenwest.com (Casey) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 02:04:45 -0000 Subject: Movie PoA Foreshadows Books 6 & 7 (Sirius) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104337 Wow, I look at things totally different. Especially after reading JK's site. When someone asked about why Harry didn't remember about the mirror, JK said that it would play an important part later on. A switch immediately went off in my head. I remember that scene at the river, where Sirius "died" and then the lights (his soul?) went back into his body, something that wasn't in the book IIRC. I put the two together and and came up with the following theory. The mirror is repaired and Harry will be able to talk to Sirius beyond the veil. Somehow they use that and bring him back to life. I was actually disappointed when I thought of that because I really don't like Sirius and was hoping he was gone for good. Casey From xtremesk8ergurl2 at aol.com Mon Jul 5 02:08:54 2004 From: xtremesk8ergurl2 at aol.com (xtremesk8ergurl2 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 22:08:54 EDT Subject: Harry Will Die Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104338 I agree, I think Harry is going to die in the end. Maybe Rowling will be able to make this a death that the readers will approve of or agree with, either because of a promise of happiness after death or because Harry himself will want to embrace death. But I think he's definitely going to die. I've often wondered if she would write more than 7 Books in the HP series. "xtremesk8ergurl" From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Mon Jul 5 02:52:30 2004 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 02:52:30 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited - correction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104339 Oops... in this message (104335) I think I credited Demetra with SSSusan's words. Due to idiocy and inexperience posting, no doubt. Sorry! Katie, embarrassed From caseylane at wideopenwest.com Mon Jul 5 02:56:11 2004 From: caseylane at wideopenwest.com (Casey) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 02:56:11 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited--what if? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104340 > SSSusan: > I have come to the conclusion that some of the Sirius Bashers are > right on many counts, but I do think if Sirius had lived, and once > the war had ended, he might've turned out to be a very decent kind > of guy. I did enjoy him at times--I have no doubt he could be > loads of fun to be around--and I appreciated his *desire* to be > helpful to Harry. But if he'd been able to be out & about, > doing useful things, unburdened by Voldy's return and the prospect > of a war, cleared fully & publically, I think he'd have been less > likely to be so surly, reckless & rash, and more likely to have > grown out of SOME of his rashness. My take on Sirius is that he's like one of those people we all know be they the jocks or just popular. Cute, funny, wicked sense of humor, but using it to tell racist or gay jokes. They make their friends laugh because what they say IS funny, but it's still wrong and petty and, well, racist. They think they are right and anyone that isn't as cute or rich or athletic is fair game for their put- down. Enough of an egoist that attempted murder can be lauged off as just another joke. You feel special when you are included in their circle, but at the same time think it makes you a little uncomfortable. Casey From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Mon Jul 5 02:59:14 2004 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 02:59:14 -0000 Subject: Movie PoA Foreshadows Books 6 & 7 (other than Lupin-related) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104341 mhbobbin: > Any other ideas on foreshadowing that might have inadvertently been > revealed in film that JKR is referring to? Katie: I can't add much to your other ideas, I'm afraid, but one more possibility: what about Sirius appearing in the crystal ball? I don't remember that happening in the books (I could be wrong, though, as usual.) Foreshadowing of the mirror, perhaps? -Katie who hopes the elves aren't too annoyed that she keeps posting From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Jul 5 03:14:31 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 03:14:31 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited--what if? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104342 > SSSusan: > Now *this* I agree with. I have come to the conclusion that some of > the Sirius Bashers are right on many counts, but I do think if > Sirius had lived, and once the war had ended, he might've turned out > to be a very decent kind of guy. I did enjoy him at times--I have > no doubt he could be loads of fun to be around--and I appreciated > his *desire* to be helpful to Harry. He was surly and dark cooped > up in GP and not especially helpful to Harry when goading him to do > dangerous things. But if he'd been able to be out & about, doing > useful things, unburdened by Voldy's return and the prospect of a > war, cleared fully & publically, I think he'd have been less likely > to be so surly, reckless & rash, and more likely to have grown out > of SOME of his rashness. Jen: The central tragedy in the series for me is the lost generation of men & women who gave up a normal life to be part of the Order (and I include Snape here, too). A few managed to have careers for a short time, find partners, even have a child, but they all paid dearly in the end. They died, were driven insane, disappeared, or worst of all, lived with constant reminders of their losses. It gets depressing when I think about it for long. Personally, I think JKR created these tragic figures in part to underscore how horrible the First War was. We only get glimpses of the war, and sometime I'm not convinced of Voldemort as a villian. But when I think of the tragedy of the Marauder generation and the potential for Harry's generation to face the same consequences if Voldemort isn't defeated, *then* I have a better picture of what Voldemort is capable of. Jen, who couldn't believe SSSusan's loyalty to Sirius was wavering today and is glad to see everything is right with the world again ;). From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jul 5 03:30:17 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 03:30:17 -0000 Subject: McGonagall's character was Re: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104343 > Kneasy: > Yes, she does. Naturally I discount this (would you expect anything else?) > My reading of McGonagals character is that she's one of those teachers > for whom all geese are swans, and in addition would use a measure of > hyperbole when talking of someone that a) she liked, and b) was dead. > She just strikes me as that type. I may be wrong. > Potioncat: I've gone up and down the thread, and I still don't think you've answered the questions this comment has generated. (Mine or others) C'mon, you always insist on canon support...so what canon support do you have for McGonagall's character in this case? I agree, we can't always trust what characters tells us, but it helps to have a reason not to trust them. Or take a step back and tell us why JKR would have McGonagall telling us Potter and Black were smart if they were not. Potioncat (who hopes everyone can tell this is a friendly challenge) (and who also hopes there are 2 L's in McGonagall because it would wake children if I went to check canon.....) From sherriola at earthlink.net Mon Jul 5 03:43:10 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 21:43:10 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003201c46242$32057ac0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 104344 (And if I don't watch it, I'll be putting together pro-Sirius posts; just as an intellectual exercise, you understand.) Kneasy Sherry (laughing) Kneasy, I'd like to see you do that, just to see what you'd come up with. Sometimes, I agree with you; sometimes I don't. But your posts are always entertaining and thought provoking. I am a Sirius fan, but I don't think he's a perfect character. That's why he's interesting. I don't like Snape, but I think he's a complex character, and I don't necessarily think he's evil--and he's very interesting. But anyway, because your posts are always so fun to read, I'd love to see you take on the other sides of arguments you have started. I don't mean argument in the negative way, let's say debates. Try a pro-Sirius post for fun and see what you come up with! Sherry G From jakejensen at hotmail.com Mon Jul 5 04:22:00 2004 From: jakejensen at hotmail.com (jakedjensen) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 04:22:00 -0000 Subject: HBP and COS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104345 Almost a year ago there was a thread focused on what scene JKR told S. Kloves (screenwriter for HP movies) not to cut from COS because it was important for the series. Now there is all this talk about the HBP and, primarily, who the HBP might be. Is it possible that the scene in COS where S. Finnegan reveals his background (i.e., that he is a half blood) is the scene JKR saved from the cutting room floor? This would make sense and it would also explain why both SS and COS produced rumors that JKR was telling everyone involved to keep scenes with Finnegan in the movie (which I had always explained away as rumors inappropriately attributed to Finnegan and aimed, more correctly, at Neville). But...with all this HBP stuff.... Anyway, I am not really interested in the movies. I am just wondering if Seamus would make sense as the HBP. It is interesting to note that the most famous translation of Beowulf (a story about a prince who becomes a monarch) is written by a gentleman whose first name is Seamus (coincidence...I think so, but nonetheless, JKR might know this, she studied at University). Other than that, why would Seamus be a prince? I guess I would have to say, why would anyone be a prince? There really hasn't been much talk of royalty at all in the books. Just a thought that came to mind Jake From Batchevra at aol.com Mon Jul 5 04:22:46 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 00:22:46 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] About Sirius, Wormtail, Snape, Draco Message-ID: <43.2dcf231a.2e1a3196@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104346 In a message dated 7/4/04 7:23:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com writes: >Also, DD knew for a long time somebody close to them was passing information to LV, why very close to Potters? Just because it was Wormtail? Why was he recruited by LV? He doesn't seem to be very bright, his only plus point was that he was close to Potters (who were in Order, I agree, but is that only criterion?). I doubt DD trusting him with important information any more than we can trust Crabe or Goyle. I can see how he came in the Order (being one of Marauders), but a spy? He must have some hidden abilities. And one more point to ponder about Snape... he knew somebody close to Potters was passing information, there were only 3 persons really close to them.. its only a matter of raising their sleeve... all this doesn't speak highly of his spying abilities. Because we know he was spying for DD for a long time. Or was he also blinded by the fact that it was James and Sirius who were in danger? He would have loved all of them killed and any one of them as spy for LV would be his idea for christmas present. I don't think PP figured in his revenge anywhere. PP seems only a peripheral figure in the rivalry. Amey again< I had to snip some of your interesting post, I apologize, but this is where I would like to answer. Peter Pettigrew wasn't as bright as Sirius, James and Remus, but he was smart and did have some powerful abilities. Even though he needed help with becoming an Animagus, he did become one. As for him being the spy, I think we have part of the story from the picture that Moody shows Harry in OOTP. In the picture, Pettigrew is sitting in between Lily and James. Sirius is sitting next to James and Remus is sitting alone in another spot. Now the interesting part here is Pettigrew is in between Lily and James, if wizard photographs show the intent or personality of the person at the time that the picture is taken, then we have possibly an idea that Pettigrew was coming in between Lily and James. What exactly was going on, I don't know, but I speculate that Pettigrew was saying that Remus was the spy, James and Sirius believed him and Lily wasn't convinced. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Batchevra at aol.com Mon Jul 5 04:27:49 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 00:27:49 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Boggart/ Patronus Musings Message-ID: <145.2d81ee46.2e1a32c5@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104347 In a message dated 7/3/04 9:20:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lziner at yahoo.com writes: >In POA, we never see Lupins Patronus just his boggart -the moon. I've read some posts about James' Patronus - I'm just wondering about the rest of the characters. Anyone venture a guess on the forms of the boggart and or patronus for: James Sirius Dumbledore Snape Peter Any thoughts? LZ< I would venture to guess that Dumbledore's patronus is a phoenix, I only have the GOF incident when he calls Hagrid to where Krum had been stunned and the figure was a silvery Phoenix shaped. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Jul 5 05:05:03 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 05:05:03 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited. Character discussions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104348 Jocelyn: > I tend to think that very few people actually see > themselves as evil. I think Robert Heinlein said something about 'inside > our heads we are all wearing the White hat' - we are all the heroes of our > own story, and we rearrange our memories if necessary to preserve this > illusion. > > Obviously some people do deliberately don the black hat, but most people > excuse themselves of bad acts by saying 'what was there to be gained by > refusing him?', 'I was under orders', 'if it wasn't me it would have been > someone else' - you know what I am talking about. They see their own > behaviour as that of a good - or at least average - person who was in a jam, > or doing their best. Jen: Psychological theory indicates that most people judge others only by their actions, but judge themselves by their intentions. That's the part missing for me in Potterverse. I'd love to hear Sirius' thoughts the night he sends Snape to the Shrieking Shack, or hear Snape's inner dialogue about teaching Harry Occlumency. Jocelyn: > > It's down to us, I think, to draw our own conclusions - at least until > > all is revealed. Jen: And even then, with facts in black and white, we'll still argue! There will always be the missing puzzle piece of perspective. Even if a character tells Harry what he is thinking and feeling, why he took a particular course of action, we'll never be privvy to the shadow side of a character's life, the part even the character doesn't realize is influencing his/her behavior. Or the private reasons why a person behaves in a certain way, the things that aren't shared. jocelyn: > I was actually meaning to respond to the part of the question about why so > many HP fans see things in 'black and white'. I think that whilst character > determines a lot of this, so does life experience, and naturally that is > also linked to age. Jen: IMO, it depends on how in-depth a person wants to analyze the books. I enjoyed the series on a superficial level before OOTP and didn't think to analyze the plot or characters beyond liking/disliking certain characters & moments in the story. I primarily felt an emotional connection to Harry and his journey. Re: black & white answers, the missing perspective piece contributes to this situation, too. Missing perspective leaves all the characters in Tabula Rasa mode, waiting for each reader to mold the characters into who they want to read about. I can overlook or rationalize many things about Dumbledore, Lupin and Sirius because I was drawn to them immediately. I don't want to find out, almost at the end of the series, that I was hoodwinked into believing one of these characters is not who he says he is. Then I'll have to make some tough choices: Do I re-interpret the series? Feel disillusioned and stop reading/talking about HP? Incorporate the new information into my image of the character and move on? Ouch, it will hurt. Don't know the answer to this. So, for now I'll go on swathed in the comfort of denial, and enjoy all my favorite characters before they die or go insane or we find out they're ESE or..... Jen Reese From Meliss9900 at aol.com Mon Jul 5 05:29:44 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 01:29:44 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Getting to Hogwarts Message-ID: <87.feb6c2f.2e1a4148@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104349 In a message dated 07/02/2004 1:47:22 AM Central Daylight Time, justcarol67 at yahoo.com writes: > What I wonder is how the pureblood kids get their trunks to and from > King's Cross Station. Even if they're old enough to apparate, you > can't apparate with a trunk (and in many cases, a pet as well). I > don't think you can get to King's Cross using Floo Powder, either, as > there aren't any fireplaces there even if you could "Floo" with a > trunk. Portkeys. And you can't ride a broom in broad daylight with a trunk > > hanging from it without calling attention to yourself (the escort at > the beginning of OoP strikes me as one of the most improbable scenes > in any of the books) Oh I dunno. . if you fly high enough on a moonless night you might not call any attention to yourself. As long as you stayed out of major flight paths. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Mon Jul 5 05:30:09 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 05:30:09 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited--emotional maturity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104350 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "anthyroserain" wrote: > Valky: > > > However, and although I thoroughly agree with the statement made > by > > others that Sirius' hotheaded and temperamental behaviour in OOP > > headquarters seemed entirely logical and not uncharacteristic at > > all, I still feel very strongly in favour of the 'Kreacher feeds > > Sirius a befuddlement draught' supposition, I don't know why it > just > > makes an sinister amount of sense. > > > Katie: > > Hmm... Sirius doesn't really seem befuddled to me. Not that I'd put > it past Kreacher to slip him a potion (wouldn't put anything past > Kreacher) but why do you think so? > > -Katie Valky: Its not so much that it fits per se, in the context of the story, except that the symptoms are extraordinarily familiar, but as the way the indicators are flagged in canon. Its all in the order they appear. I am assuming probably more than I should here. so I'll start from the beginning. Some time ago it was supposed that Kreacher was implementing a plot to get rid of Sirius a long time before he left Grimmauld Place to the Malfoy residence. The canon that supports this is in congruent elements scattered through OOtP. They are: 1 Sirius becomes some alarming bit more cheerful when Kreacher disappears at Christmas. 2 Although it fits nicely with the probability that Sirius is unhappy to be losing his guests at the end of Christmas, it also fits, curiously, that he becomes once again hotheaded and recklessly behaved when Kreacher returns. 3 We are treated to, in a previous chapter, an insight into the uses of scurvy grass, lovage and sneezewort, which I will quote for you: "These plantes are efficacious in the inflaming of the braine, and are therefore much used in Confusing and befuddlement Draughts, where the wizard is desirous of producing hot-headedness and recklessness ...." This is in Dumbledores Army, OOtP page 340 in my version. Now I cannot take credit for this exemplary sleuthing I am afraid, but I do have plenty to offer in support of the theory. For example, as there was much talk in Grimmauld Place, by Molly Lupin et al, that recklessness would get Sirius killed, it is quite likely that when chanced upon, it would be of a temptation to Kreacher to encourage along some recklessness, in his much loathed master. Secondly and if you'll imagine with me for a moment that Kreacher is blurting to his much beloved Bella: "I have been feeding the young traitor scurvy grass in hope that he would do something foolish and get himself and all his mutant, mudblood, half breed, etc etc.... friends, thankfully, destroyed. But he is resisting it so ! I fear I shall be in his treacherous keep forever... oh for shame poor Kreacher.. boo hoo etc.." Bella then goes to discuss with LV this and the other information we already know she gave him and of course LV decides it will help his new plan along if Kreacher continues to do so. So much against the House Elfs desire to not return to Sirius, ever, he does... and immediately, to begin the scurvy grass, or what have you, lacing of Sirius' food again, because Harry, who is at Grimmauld Place right now, must firmly believe that Sirius has lost the plot and misplaced the blueprints. In the post I previously replied to, Katie did make note of how excuses for bad behaviour of characters has been made by members of HP fandom, ranging from childhood abuse to magical control over that characters mind. And I say again to Katie, though I agree, absolutely ;), that much of this speculation is, to the point, absolutist in dividing who is good and bad in the books, I am afraid that this is the one case that I simply cannot let go. I could go on, now, about how JKR must know how guilty she is of allowing Kreacher to steal most of our last moments with Sirius from us. And that SAD DENIAL has a right to a SIRIUS RESSURRECTION because we were never given more than a few fleeting moments with the REAL him. Oops I did go on with it didn't I. Valky From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Jul 5 05:39:36 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 05:39:36 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104351 SSSusan: > > I thought I liked him; I thought I could *fairly* easily defend him > > if I gave some time & thought to it. But you two have stunned me > > into thinking I can't. I mean, saying he has a whim of iron [great > > phrase] strikes me as so true, and it does seem to follow that if > > faced with a personal stance that goes against good vs. evil, well, > > *would* he make the tougher choice?? I'm not so sure. Kneasy: > Oi! None of that! Stick to your guns, you may yet be right. > Just because there's a couple of posts that slipped past your guard, > that's no excuse to give up on Sirius. What is needed is *proof* - > and so far nobody's seen any. Persuasive verbosity is no match for > eventual canon. Theories and suppositions are fun to construct but > mean little unless JKR gives them the nod. As a leading light in > the Sirius Protection League you can't falter now. Have you no > faith in your hero? Jen: OK Kneasy, I have proof that Sirius is meant to be a good character. Sure, you've heard it before, but it's basically irrefutable fact: JKR made his animagus form a dog. It's that simple! A dog, a pack animal, an animal who believes there's no shame in establishing a pecking order and that some dogs get to be alphas and some dogs don't. He's fiercely loyal to his pack, unafraid of crossing other animals who wander into his territory, and follows instinct rather than reason. There, Sirius in a nutshell. Even in Potterverse, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. If JKR tells me Pettigrew turns into a rat when he transforms, then we find out he ratted out his friends, well that's enough information for me to decide what Sirius' character is (and wonder why they never suspected Pettigrew was the spy?). He can be ferocious, and might go bad if provoked enough, but Sirius' true form is innately loyal and eager to please. Jen, loyal member of the Sirius Protection League From n2fgc at arrl.net Mon Jul 5 06:12:34 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 02:12:34 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Getting to Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104352 | From: amanitamuscaria1 | Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 08:59 | AmanitaMuscaria now - Surely what you've just posted, Lee, points | firmly at the 'socioeconomic distinction'. Who better than the | Malfoys to be able to get a portkey set up for their convenience? All | Lucius would have to do is jingle his pocket at Fudge. [Lee]: Ah--well, Lucius, I think, uses more than just his money; he uses his "in people" at the MOM, etc., so sure, he could probably get a portkey, just as he got Dd removed from his headmastership in COS, etc. Lucius is a law unto himself...well, so it seems. But, for the most part, as far as most wizards are concerned, I still stick to what I say. [amanitamuscaria]: | As we see, when Fudge thinks it's in his interest to believe and | protect Harry, Arthur has no problems in getting a couple of Ministry | cars to ferry them from the Leaky Cauldron to Kings Cross. One thing | we very much see is that the rules are infinitely bendy in the wizard | world. [Lee]: Well, if we want to be really honest, rules can be "bendy" even in RL. How many corrupt or problematic figures have appeared in governments large and small, in the justice system, in any profession one can name? These are people who bend with whatever wind of change blows, to whoever can find the right button to push. IMHO, Fudge is not very stable; he's going to support whoever appeals to his need of the day, whether it be power or glory or extra funds for some cause, etc. Lucius knows that Fudge has no really strong convictions of his own, no inner strength; so, he's going to tap his wand on whatever button will bring a very noncommittal Fudge to his way of thinking when it suits. Okay, Lucius wants a portkey? Sure...anything...after all, he's just contributed a load of galleons to my fave charity and greased my palms, etc. And, as far as sending cars from the MOM to protect Harry, et al, whichever way one slices it, this makes Fudge look good to the others in the Ministry, doesn't mess up anything Lucius wants, so, what the heck... :-) As far as I'm concerned, it's just power play with Lucius and Cornelius. :-) I hate to put it this way, but I see Fudge as a puppet easily controlled by Lucius's kind...at least, that's how it has been until now. Things will no doubt be different following OOTP. After all, Lucius is in Azkaban, Fudge has probably lost any bit of credibility he's had and, if not, if he's still got some support, it's minimal and I foresee his downfall as a given. It would really be interesting to see what will be left of Fudge. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me; | n2fgc at arrl.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From n2fgc at arrl.net Mon Jul 5 06:25:08 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 02:25:08 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Getting to Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <87.feb6c2f.2e1a4148@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104353 | From: Meliss9900 at aol.com | Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 01:30 | In a message dated 07/02/2004 1:47:22 AM Central Daylight Time, | justcarol67 at yahoo.com writes: | | And you can't ride a broom in broad daylight with a trunk | > hanging from it without calling attention to yourself (the escort at | > the beginning of OoP strikes me as one of the most improbable scenes | > in any of the books) | [Meliss]: | Oh I dunno. . if you fly high enough on a moonless night you | might not call | any attention to yourself. As long as you stayed out of major | flight paths. [Lee]: I agree, and I'm sure Moody had their route planned. On top of that, he had that disillusionment charm going, definitely on Harry, possibly others had some form of it on either themselves or their brooms. They were obviously flying very high for it to be so cold...temperature drops about 10 degrees every thousand feet, give or take. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me; | n2fgc at arrl.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From grace701 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 5 06:39:57 2004 From: grace701 at yahoo.com (grace701) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 06:39:57 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry and Hermione Foreshadowing in PoA movie? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104354 mayeaux45 wrote: > Could it be that Harry and Hermione will end up together before the > end of the series? JKR has already gone on record in an interview > in late May saying that 'the hairs on the back of her neck were > standing on end' She actually got chills watching the movie! She > couldn't believe that Alfonso had predicted as many things as he > did. Which leads me to the main question...Harry and Hermione? > > First of all Alfonso decides for a close up shot on Hermione > whenever Harry comes down stairs to greet them while staying at the > Leaky Cauldron. Second, Alfonso so cleverly puts an homage to Y tu > Mama Tambien in the movie by having the three young stars console > each other at the execution of Buckbeak. Note: Harry is consoling > Hermione and Hermione is holding on to Ron, but who is Ron > consoling...? No one! Before I go on, let me just add that there > are some clues to Ron and Hermione as well, but we're focusing on > Harry and Hermione at this particular time. > > Moving on... The third clue is when Alfonso has Hermione fall onto > Harry when entering the Whomping Willow tree (that's not in the > books)! Clue Four, Harry and Hermione are holding each other's hands > at many points in the movie (even at times when it is not needed... > Ex: going up the stairs to the Shrieking Shack, running through the > forests, and so on)!!!! > > Clue Five, the music that was chosen for each scene is amazing. > Alfonso is known for his attention to detail. When Harry and > Hermione were sitting down waiting for 'themselves' to come out of > the whomping willow, the imagery and music that was playing was > really "magical" (almost romantic?) The camera pans from the birds > that were flying from the sky towards Harry and Hermione sitting > under the tree. Clue Six, Hindsight is 20/20...think about that! > (The Time Turner)...draw your own conclusions about this one. Clue > Seven, the position in which Harry and Hermione were sitting > underneath the tree. Hermione was sitting slightly behind Harry. > The way in which she looked at him was foreshadowing all on its own. > > NOTE: I'm also a fan of Ron/Hermione, so I'm not really biased with > the whole Harry/Hermione relationship! Just wanted all you R/Hr > fans out there to know that. But you have to admit...the clues are > there (in the movie and especially after OotP). Let me know what > you think! Just for the record, I am a fan of H/Hr and I see the foreshadowing of which you mention. I'm not quite sure if it's foreshadowing a possible relationship in HBP or book 7, but in the meantime it does indeed foreshadow their relationship in OoP. For example, Harry protecting Hermione in movie!PoA is not canon for book!PoA, but for OoP. Hand-holding has not been shown in any of the books, if I remember correctly; perhaps for the upcoming books. What Cuar?n did in PoA is what JKR has been doing since PoA: subtlety showing us a developing relationship from friends to something more. Grace, who is half asleep so if she did not make any sense please forgive her From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Jul 5 06:51:01 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 06:51:01 -0000 Subject: Boggart/ Patronus Musings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104355 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Potioncat: > I think all the patronae (um?) we've seen have been animals. Is > that correct? I don't know if we've been told anything. I'm > assuming a Patronus is like a Patron, and the animal symbolizes that > father-like/family-like relationship. IIRC, Hermione's is an otter > and I'm wondering if that reflects the Weasleys? I'm also assuming, > having once conjured one, it stays constant. I would assume a > Boggart would change as the individual changed. Geoff: With my pedantic hat on, if JKR has indeed used the correct Latin, we have Patroni, not Patronae, (Patronus = 2nd declension masculine noun). Its meaning is indeed "patron, protector, advocate" so I think it is stronger than an assumption. Since Harry seems to produce the same Patronus each time, I would agree with you that it stays constant. We have discussed in the past the suggestion that a person has "a" patronus and not a selection, as a reflection of that person's character. From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 5 06:55:44 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 06:55:44 -0000 Subject: Human's Emotions vs. Dogs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104356 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pandrea100" wrote: > > ...edited... > > Of course, Sirius-as-a-dog still has human thoughts, enough to > control his actions, but it seems rational to me that they could be > dampened down, like someone on tranquilisers or something. As an > example, let's say Sirius' favourite food normally is sushi. As a > dog, is he going to crave sushi, or more doggy type food like steak > or bones? I would think the latter. Or, let's say he sees an > attractive woman (...) while in dog form - he may realise that she > is attractive, but he's not going to be attracted TO her, because, > well, he's a dog. So in animal form, his animal nature has to > override his human one at various points, while still allowing him > to know that, eg, he has to go to a particular place to hide out. > > Pandrea Asian_lovr2: Of course what I am about to say is pure speculation, but I think it re-enforces what you have said above. This is an old theory that I proposed in a similar thread a long time ago. This is how I picture a wizard in animagus form. The human mind and the instinctive animal mind are like a rider and a horse. The animal's instintive mind in this analogy is represented by the horse, and the human mind is like the rider. For the most part the rider gives the horse his head and lets him run, only adding guidance as needed. The horse and the instinctive mind have free will and are capable of acting independantly. The rider or human mind is long for the ride unless circumstances dictate otherwise. This 'along for the ride' allows the human mind to stay in the background undetected by external forces when the situation demands it. There are times when it's best for the passenger to let the instinctive mind have complete control, such as when a dog is trying to catch a rabbit for dinner, or when the 'body' is depending on skills unique to the animal. In the dog example, the dog has a uniquely keen sense of smell, very accute hearing, strong homing instinct, and eyes that are adapted to a particular type of vision that suits a dog. There are times when the uniquely dog characteristics must dominate in order to survive. Now when human danger is near, or the animal needs to act with calculated stealth, the human mind and instinctive mind work together. At other times, it more important for the human mind to be in control. For example, in areas of language, understanding what bad wizards are saying, although, reading the demeanor and body language would be important too, and in the latter case, the instinct and intellect would again work together. Another example of when the human must dominate is when they/it/he needs to form and carry out a complex plan of action. In the example in the book of Sirius getting past the dementors in dog form, I think Sirius let his human mind fall to the background. The instinctive Dog part of him knew the objective, and was able to act on that basic information to get himself out of the prison. across a large expanse of water, and back on to the main land. Just as the rider and horse are in a constant an ever changing interplay, so too are the human intellect and animal instinct of the animagus. Each dominating when the situation demand the particular skills of one or the other. Again, pure speculation, no canon support, but it seems like a reasonable analogy. I have to believe that an animagus form serves more purpose the just a disguise. If this is true, then the animagus has the additional power to draw on the resources that are unique to the animal in which it transform. There are times when being able to smell a Death Eater from a mile away could be a definite advantage. For what it's worth. Steve/asian_lovr2 From srobles at caribe.net Mon Jul 5 03:25:49 2004 From: srobles at caribe.net (anasazi_pr) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 03:25:49 -0000 Subject: Movie PoA Foreshadows Books 6 & 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104357 - "mayeaux45" wrote: > Clue 1) Draco Malfoy will be killed. What in the PoA movie made you think that? Cause I kind of thought that Draco was going to survive the final battle because he came of as a coward who would do anything to save his own neck (a hotter Peter Pettigrew) >Clue 2) There is a foreshadowing "love triangle" between Harry, >Hermione, and Ron. The decision is all Hermione's and no one >elses. It's up to her in the end who she will choose. I agree with this one. Specially in the fact that it will be Hermione's choice and no one elses. >Clue 3) Sirius all but says to Harry that he can always > contact him (but how, we have yet to find out). I think the final line that Sirius says to Harry before riding Buckbeak toward freedom says it all. (goes all dreamy eye at her beloved Sirius) >Clue 4) Hermione's wand is mysteriously powerful! We still have no >idea what the core is in her wand. JKR is a very sneaky woman... why would she neglect to inform us what the wand of the "brightest witch her age" is made of? Unless it will prove to be very valuable information in the future. >Clue 5) As stated by someone else already...Remus > is holding some important information that has yet be told to Harry > about the past. I agree that Remus is indeed withholding information from Harry, but I think it had more to do with embarrasement than with malice. I definitely got the "I was in love with your mother" vibe in the conversation between Harry and Remus in the bridge. Anasazi From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Mon Jul 5 08:04:57 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 08:04:57 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104358 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > > Even in Potterverse, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. If JKR tells > me Pettigrew turns into a rat when he transforms, then we find out > he ratted out his friends, well that's enough information for me to > decide what Sirius' character is (and wonder why they never > suspected Pettigrew was the spy?). He can be ferocious, and might go > bad if provoked enough, but Sirius' true form is innately loyal and > eager to please. > > Jen, loyal member of the Sirius Protection League Carolyn: Your point about Sirius-the-dog is well made, and I have often thought it myself. His essential nature seems to be all about pack loyalty to a leader, ferocious savagery if attacked, bounding about after sticks when he's happy. Not super-bright, but man's best friend and all that. I can see even the Shrieking Shack incident in this light - an opportunity to attack an enemy of his pack leader, James, coupled with a brattish teenage indifference to the consequences, and WW robustness about dangerous pastimes. And I'm sure he never really regretted his actions that night, or understood what all the fuss was about. The idea would also seem to hold good for Peter the rat, McGonagall the cat, and the curious aptness of Lupin's name has been much discussed. But James the stag? What's that all about? Male deer only grow their horns for the mating season, and then they spend many months roaring at the top of their voices, engaging in deadly head- butting fights with rivals, and jealously guarding their herd of does, which they have singled out for mating with. All typical alpha male behaviour in spades, but what on earth does it tell us about James? Carolyn From smartone56441070 at aol.com Mon Jul 5 03:56:15 2004 From: smartone56441070 at aol.com (smartone564) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 03:56:15 -0000 Subject: Human's Emotions vs. Dogs (Re: Sirius revisited) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104359 Kneasy wrote: > Stags and dogs hate > and fear wolves. A very basic emotion, yet James and Sirius > romp over the countryside with one. Which emotions are being > expressed - the animal, or are the human ones of friendship > and protectiveness at work? A few years ago, I read a popular series, that eventually was shown into a horrible tv show (low budget type thing). It was called 'Animorphs', if some of you remember that, and the main characters turned into animals to fight the bad aliens. When they did this, the basic mind of the animal was 'in' the mind with them. This animal mind held all the basic instincts that would have been hard to explain otherwise, such as flying as birds, using multiple legs (i.e. 4 for many animals), and even comprehending the near 360 degrees of a bug's eyes. These people could 'lose themselves' and submit to the animal mind, or control it in a way, so it does what they needed it to, but how the animal would (for example, running, but the animal controls the four legs which are unusual for the person). Although it's really besides the point, the series got very dull and repetitive, however, I think that becoming an animagus is similar to this. Sirius/James could have forced the animal minds to ignore the werewolf (and btw, there is canon somewhere about werewolves only being a danger to people) and have run around. However, when Sirius escaped from Azkaban, he could have submitted to the dog's mind, and as dogs frequently wander around in a new place, it wouldn't take much effort to nudge the dog out the door. Smart From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 5 08:24:35 2004 From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 09:24:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's first Kiss In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040705082435.96395.qmail@web25307.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104360 Plinker wrote If you think back to book one, or the first movie, there seems to be a special bond or something concerning a handshake. What it is I really don't know. However if there is a certain bond or something attached to a handshake, a kiss, I believe has a little more importance than we understand. This was Harry's first kiss,(Cho), the first sign of affection from another person other than gifts (owl or broom), his first intimate contact. I believe his was more powerful than we realize and may prove to be of great importance later. Cho already affected Harry's moods greatly. This affection is not over, not by a long shot. Now Udder_P_D When asked Harry described kissing Cho as 'wet' (he was both serious and disappointed). I would not be inclined to even count this as a first real kiss. Yes he had a crush on Cho but it seemed to go rapidly down hill from this point. TTFN Udder Pen Dragon ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From adanabbett at yahoo.com Mon Jul 5 03:56:57 2004 From: adanabbett at yahoo.com (Adan) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 03:56:57 -0000 Subject: Dobby and Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104361 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "smartone564" wrote: > Larson once wrote: > > > As we have read many times, no one is supposed to be able to > > disparate or apparate within Hogwarts. Is Dobby going to the > > kitchen to be with other house elves or is the house elf magic > so > > different as not to be ncluded in the Hogwarts restrictions? > > Smart replied: Don't forget about Fawkes, he can get around too. He managed > to give DD the warning he needed to avoid DU (when Arthur is > attacked) and took DD.... away.... when DD left the school (as a > result of 'Dumbledore's Army'). JKR said the following in the World Book Day chat: Rorujin: How is Dobby abele to apparate inside Hogwarts if no one else can? JK Rowling replies -> He's a house-elf, they've got powers wizards haven't got (but wizards have also got powers that house-elves haven't). I imagine it's different rules for non-humans, though that leaves me wondering about Nagini and animagi. Are animagi still completely human? Adan, apologizing if I missed where this had been answered already From catlady at wicca.net Mon Jul 5 08:33:38 2004 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 08:33:38 -0000 Subject: Absolutist/Boggart&Patronus/HappyMarriage/Floo$/Evil/NameMagic/Martyrdom/Rats Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104362 Katie anthyroserain wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/104168 : << It seems to me (though I may well be wrong) that HP fans are often quite absolutist about the characters in the books. There's a tendency to see characters as overwhelmingly evil or good, begetting character assassination and complex theories (frequently involving charms and spells to affect personality) to justify a "good" character's morally ambiguous choices. My question is, why do we need characters to be overwhelmingly one thing or another, to a degree that would be unrealistic in real life? >> I think it is that a lot of *posts* are absolutist, rather than that a lot of fans are. One thing, a person may have very strong, even absolutist feelings, about one or two or three characters and see the rest in shades of gray, but be more likely to post to a thread about which he/she has strong feelings. Another thing is, the discussions get adversarial. If someone posts that X is all bad or all good, people who are equally absolutist on the other side will reply. People who a nuanced view of X may sigh that they don't want to get into *that* debate again. When someone posts that X is totally perfect and good in every way, the person with a more nuanced view might reply by mentioning some of X's imperfections. That doesn't mean that they think X is absolutely bad and evil, but sometimes people read their posts that way. LZiner asked in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/104216 : << Anyone venture a guess on the forms of the boggart and or patronus for: James Sirius Dumbledore Snape Peter >> I have an idea that two different Boggarts might take different forms to represent the same worst fear to the same person -- in canon, Hermione's fear of (academic) failure inspired a Boggart to take the form of McGonagall telling her that she had failed every exam. Imho, a different Boggart might have sensed the same fear and turned into a parchment letter conveying the same information. James probably had some very ordinary Boggart when he was a schoolboy, such as a manticore or seeing his broomstick broken, but once he grew up, I imagine his Boggart was seeing his wife and child dead or tortured. The nose-biting teacup idea was hysterically funny and seems plausible, but I suspect James ('arrogant') was one of those people who believe that they themselves (their strength, cleverness, luck, etc) are their own best protection, and so would have had a stag as Patronus. When Sirius was a schoolboy, his Boggart may have been his mother, but when he became actively involved in the fight against Voldemort, it may have changed to something related to that battle: seeing his friends dead, seeing Dumbledore (his leader) dead, seeing Voldemort triumphant. I think Potioncat was right that, after Azkaban, his Boggart would be a Dementor. I think he was even more self-confident ('arrogant') than James and therefore had a big dog as Patronus. I think Dumbledore's Patronus is a phoenix (not an original idea). I think at this time his Boggart would be Harry dead, defeated by Voldemort. Partly because of the affection he unexpectedly came to feel for Harry, but mainly because Harry is his only weapon against Voldemort, so he can't afford to lose that weapon before victory. I'm confused about what his Boggart would have been back in the first Voldemort war, or before that when he defeated Grindelwald ... Not Voldemort, because he isn't afraid of Voldemort. Not a Dementor, because he isn't afraid of Dementors. Not seeing the wizarding government act like a bunch of idiots, because he's seen that so many times already. Seeing his good students choose evil, maybe... I suspect that Snape doesn't have a Patronus, due to not having any happy memories. (Yes, Andromeda!) I think his greatest fear is that he might rejoin the Dark Side, altho' I'm not quite sure how that would be represented as a Boggart -- even in the Mirror of Raef Tsepeed, seeing himself kiss LV's hands or torture a captive would be merely things he does for his (non-canonical) role as double agent... Maybe it's a look of being disappointed in him on DD's face... Peter is afraid of dying. His Boggart would be the person or thing whom he feels is most likely to kill him. I suspect that as a schoolboy, it would have been falling from a great height to which all the Marauders had climbed... During the war, it would have been Voldemort or a powerful Death Eater. In books 3, 4, and 5, it would have been Sirius. Maybe now it's Aurors. Joceyn wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/104220 : << Arthur does also serve to show a loving marriage-bond in action. It really doesn't seem as if Harry has seen many normal happy families - and while this is definitely not a perfect marriage, it is a happy one. >> Loathsome as the Dursleys are, Vernon and Petunia appear to love and help each other. Lee Storm wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/104246 : << Now, considering the bit with the age restriction on apparation and that portkeys are controlled (mentioned by Fudge near the end of OOTP), and broomsticks are awfully visible, the only thing left that any witch/wizard can use is...floo powder. So, the whole thing about socio-economic falls apart, IMO. >> Maybe there is another, cleaner and easier, method of underage travel that we readers don't know about because it is Very Expensive. I suppose it is even possible that there are different brands or grades of Floo Powder and the more expensive ones make you travel cleaner and less dizzily than the cheaper ones ... Kneasy wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/104273 : << This is going too far for some - Snape is evil, full stop. Why? because he's rude and sarcastic to some students. The fact that such behaviour appears to be accepted without demur in the WW passes some people by. Because it is unacceptable in their RL it must, in the opinion of some posters be totally unacceptable in HP too. Not so. HP ain't real. JKR has written her own rules for the WW and probably for good reasons. I'm quite happy to string along until she tells me different. >> I don't believe that Snape is evil, but it certainly seems to me that being evil "appears to be accepted without demur in the WW". Not merely that Lucius Malfoy is so respected despite being known to all to have lied his way out of punishment for being a Death Eater, but also the entirely overground existence of Knockturn Alley and its shops so indicates. It appears that the Black family was well-respected despite having a house full of Dark artifacts. We don't hear of the Daily Prophet raking any muck about Dumbledore inviting people from Durmstrang into Hogwarts Castle even tho' Durmstrang has a reputation for teaching Dark Arts. Valkie wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/104274 : << Harry and Voldemort are equals. This is because of choice*, Voldemort chose his equal. He marked him, as an equal. How did this happen? Another complex spell model that we could discuss in more detail but JKR already revealed the majority of its inner workings to us. What is not said about it is that it has a result equal to the last one. A name. >> That name being The Boy Who Lived? << They have both already been killed! >> Has Harry already been killed? Your whole post is very interesting and original and I'm sorry I don't have more comments on it. Wanda wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/104295 : << So I think Harry misunderstands Dumbledore at the end - he thinks that this is going to come down to a contest between him and Voldemort. It is, but it's a suicide mission. Dumbledore doesn't come out and say it like that, so I think that Harry might be thinking that his job is to kill or be killed, and that's bad enough for any kid. But he doesn't realize that in order for the plan to succeed, he CAN'T survive. He is doomed. Rowling will eventually explain how his death will also bring about Voldemort's "vanquishing", but that the two go together I have no doubt. >> This is a forbidden "I agree" post. Jen wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/104351 : << If JKR tells me Pettigrew turns into a rat when he transforms, then we find out he ratted out his friends, that's enough information for me to (snip) wonder why they never suspected Pettigrew was the spy? >> They probably assumed that Peter's rat form reflected the reality of rats rather than the metaphor of rats. Pets rats (so I have been assured by people who keep them) are clean and intelligent and friendly and loving. Rats leave a sinking ship? What has the ship ever done that they should go down with it? Brought a tomcat or a terrier on board to hunt them! From srobles at caribe.net Mon Jul 5 03:45:23 2004 From: srobles at caribe.net (anasazi_pr) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 03:45:23 -0000 Subject: Harry's first Kiss In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104363 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Plinker" wrote: > If you think back to book one, or the first movie, there seems to be > a special bond or something concerning a handshake. What it is I > really don't know. However if there is a certain bond or something > attached to a handshake, a kiss, I believe has a little more > importance than we understand. This was Harry's first kiss,(Cho), the > first sign of affection from another person other than gifts (owl or > broom), his first intimate contact. I believe his was more powerful > than we realize and may prove to be of great importance later. > Cho already affected Harry's moods greatly. This affection is not > over, not by a long shot. Actually, Mrs. Weasley has often hug Harry, and that is a sign of affection. And let's not forget Hermione's kiss at the end of GoF (although not intimate, it was clearly a sign of affection and solidarity). About the affection not being over, I actually think it is. He pretty much didn't care that Cho was dating Michael at the end of OoTP. And let's not forget the famous quote than in GoF, "everybody's in love with the wrong person" and Harry already had a huge crush on Cho Chang on book 4. I personally want him to move on to the next girl. The poor guy needs a bit of loving after all he's been through. Anasazi From smartone56441070 at aol.com Mon Jul 5 04:12:02 2004 From: smartone56441070 at aol.com (smartone564) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 04:12:02 -0000 Subject: Some Serious points in favour of Sirius In-Reply-To: <20040704070301.29104.qmail@webmail30.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104364 Amey wrote: > The gift of Firebolt is his way of showing his affection (and not apology for attacking Ron as some suggested) Who says Sirius ever attacked Ron? True, he entered with force (but to a painting, not that hard for Filch to 'expertly' re-finish), and was standing over Ron with a knife, but did he ever hurt Ron? Let me think..... uh..... Nope, never touched him, he in fact ran when he was discovered. Remember, he was looking for Scabbers here, and NOT Ron. Had Seamus owned Scabbers, (and Sirius found out about it elsewhere) he would have been standing over Seamus's bed, looking for Scabbers. Smart, who is still defending Sirius, thinks he is most like Seamus (try and dispute that one). From cowardly_heroic at yahoo.com Mon Jul 5 04:35:48 2004 From: cowardly_heroic at yahoo.com (Patty Satjapot) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 23:35:48 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Boggart/ Patronus Musings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <008501c46249$8b9aa900$6400a8c0@patty> No: HPFGUIDX 104365 Alla wrote: Oh, I love this one too. If Snape's Boggart is himself, then he is really much more guilt ridden and emotionally messed up than I was willing to consider. That would also mean that he had done some really, really bad things in his past. Patty writes: This is totally out there, but what if Snape's Patronus was also himself? So that it shows how paranoid and emotionally deprived he is that he trusts absolutely no one but himself? So he would have to be even more confusing and convoluted of a character to have both his patronus and boggart be himself. He loathes himself to such an extent but has no choice but to trust only himself. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pandrea100 at hotmail.com Mon Jul 5 04:46:25 2004 From: pandrea100 at hotmail.com (pandrea100) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 04:46:25 -0000 Subject: Fear and Valour (Long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104366 Valky wrote a long theory suggesting Voldemort's power is based on the general fear of saying his name: > So to this point I have addressed an argument that Voldemort is > using a "complex spell model" combining at least two forms of > powerful magic upon the masses to concrete his dominion of the > wizard world. > Further I believe that he has marked his servants as servants of > this spell. So, whether they want to or not, they WILL fulfill his > *first priority* of maintaining to the absolute extent of their > reaches the fear of his name. Because it is incedently ,or actually > specifically, the one thing that makes him so damn undefeatable. This is an interesting theory, but how would Voldemort have created this "spellform" giving him power through the fear of his name? Presumably people came to be afraid of him because of his awful actions, how did he get power to do these before he was so widely feared? Pandrea From smartone56441070 at aol.com Mon Jul 5 05:07:05 2004 From: smartone56441070 at aol.com (smartone564) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 05:07:05 -0000 Subject: Boggart/ Patronus Musings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104367 > Andromeda: > But aren't Patronuses (Patroni?) animals? The only ones we've seen > have been real animals. Stag, otter, swan... any others? Yeah, I agree with the Patroni- (since it comes from latin) animal thing. And earlier, I doubt very much that JKR would have two people with the same Patronus form (excluding direct relatives, i.e. James/Harry). And, I have wondered this since I first read it, how is an OTTER going to save you from a dementor? One, yeah, if you conjure it in the right direction, but if Hermione had been attacked like Harry was in the beginning of OotP, Dudley would be soulless. Either that, or otter's have some ability that i am unaware of.... Also, I would like to point out that otter's usually slap their tails on the surface of the water when danger is around, alerting others, so they can all get away (dive) until the danger has passed. Is Hermione's otter gonna give some warning, or alert the others at an oppurtune time in the future? Smart From smartone56441070 at aol.com Mon Jul 5 05:18:12 2004 From: smartone56441070 at aol.com (smartone564) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 05:18:12 -0000 Subject: Return from the Underworld in Greek Mythology (Re: Sirius Black Poll) In-Reply-To: <006401c46226$f78c8fc0$65386750@takun> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104368 Fridwulfa wrote: > So... I think Sirius is dead for > good, and he won't return to the "living world", but I'm pretty sure Harry > is going to make an unexpected trip through that veil and meet his godfather > again, and probably his parents too. And what he will learn while there will > be capital to his defeating LV. Yes, this is all good and stuff.... and I also agree with the idea of Sirius coming back (particularly with the pompegrante juice), but I have serious issues with one .... issue? If Harry is to travel through the veil and come back.... why can't Sirius just come back? Yes, Sirius is dead, I know this. However, I am concerned with how Harry is going to get to the underworld, and if it is through this veil, what is going to anchor him 'alive', so that he is able to come back? Though, otherwise, I am with Fridwulfa's specific take on this (Sirius won't come back, but will have useful information). Smart, who again is asking too many questions. From smartone56441070 at aol.com Mon Jul 5 06:47:00 2004 From: smartone56441070 at aol.com (smartone564) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 06:47:00 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Cemetery and Hogwarts: A History In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104369 Pandera wrote: > I definitely think that book is going to be important, it has been > referenced so many times, most frequently as a joke which could be a > sneaky way of foreshadowing it. I suggest that at some point some > information in it will be vital, thus justifying Hermione's constant > referral to it. It would be particularly sweet if it is Harry or Ron > who remembers it, having finally read it after she nagged them for so > long. > > One fact that the book contains is that you cannot apparate or > disapparate on Hogwarts grounds. Do you think that JKR might eventually write A History of Magic, or Hogwarts, A History of sometime as she did QTA and FBaWtFY? Though, if she did, JKR has said a lot of information is in those two books, that might be hard to fit in. Oh, and I can't forget these books cover thousands of years of history..... > Incidentally, another question I'd like answered is why the three > remaining Founders carried on having a Slytherin House. Since they > didn't believe in its precepts, why not disband it and divide up > students between the three of them from then on? Every house has its good qualities, and they have their bad sides too. Listen to the Sorting Hat's Song in OotP again, saying they (the houses/its members) must join together to survive. (For the next bit, I am using the first letter of each house name as an abbreviation). A smart R finds some spell or object that will save the day, but can't figure out how to do it logically. A resourceful S uses what s/he has to do it, but falters when his/her life is in danger. In response, the brave G can stand fast and hold the line/ buy some time. Some loyal H will be there with him/her and/or follow whatever instructions s/he was given, trusting the others. If I wanted, I could play around with any variety of situations, names, locations, solutions, and even order of when/where each house comes in, then mix and match THAT. That would leave me with more possiblities than I could ever imagine. In any case, all the houses are necessary to defeating LV. I wouldn't be surprised if a member (or more) from each house is represented in the 'Final Showdown.' Smart, who knows he is pushing his vague 'x-posts-per-day' limit. From lavaluvn at yahoo.com Mon Jul 5 08:36:52 2004 From: lavaluvn at yahoo.com (lavaluvn) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 08:36:52 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104370 snip> > Carolyn: > Your point about Sirius-the-dog is well made, and I have often > thought it myself. His essential nature seems to be all about pack > loyalty to a leader, ferocious savagery if attacked, bounding about > after sticks when he's happy. Not super-bright, but man's best friend > and all that. > > I can see even the Shrieking Shack incident in this light - an > opportunity to attack an enemy of his pack leader, James, coupled > with a brattish teenage indifference to the consequences, and WW > robustness about dangerous pastimes. And I'm sure he never really > regretted his actions that night, or understood what all the fuss was > about. > > The idea would also seem to hold good for Peter the rat, McGonagall > the cat, and the curious aptness of Lupin's name has been much > discussed. But James the stag? What's that all about? Male deer only > grow their horns for the mating season, and then they spend many > months roaring at the top of their voices, engaging in deadly head- > butting fights with rivals, and jealously guarding their herd of > does, which they have singled out for mating with. > > All typical alpha male behaviour in spades, but what on earth does it tell us about James? > Andromeda: Carolyn, I loved your post. I, too, had recently been thinking about the Sirius-the-dog aspect. Loyalty to pack, above all, bite anyone else. He said, quite clearly, that he would willingly have died to protect his friends and I believe him. That was, in fact, my favorite non-canon part of the POA movie, Sirius' comment about being loveable as a dog, James advising him to make the change permanent, etc. As for the symbology of a true stag, well.... obviously James was rutting after Lily for years. And whether any of his "pack" liked her or not, they wouldn't have dared get between them, except the rat, who was clearly jealous of Lily. Creepy. I really can't understand why Sirius would have trusted him over Lupin... tell us why Jo!!!! From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Mon Jul 5 10:11:07 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 10:11:07 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104371 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lavaluvn" wrote: Carolyn: But James the stag? What's that all about? Male deer only > > grow their horns for the mating season, and then they spend many > > months roaring at the top of their voices, engaging in deadly head-butting fights with rivals, and jealously guarding their herd of > > does, which they have singled out for mating with. > > > > All typical alpha male behaviour in spades, but what on earth does > it tell us about James? > > > > Andromeda: > > Carolyn, I loved your post. I, too, had recently been thinking about > the Sirius-the-dog aspect. Loyalty to pack, above all, bite anyone > else. He said, quite clearly, that he would willingly have died to > protect his friends and I believe him. That was, in fact, my > favorite non-canon part of the POA movie, Sirius' comment about being > loveable as a dog, James advising him to make the change permanent, > etc. > > As for the symbology of a true stag, well.... obviously James was > rutting after Lily for years. And whether any of his "pack" liked > her or not, they wouldn't have dared get between them, except the > rat, who was clearly jealous of Lily. Creepy. I really can't > understand why Sirius would have trusted him over Lupin... tell us > why Jo!!!! Carolyn: Thinking on James-the-stag a bit more this morning, it's possible we are being asked to make a connection with the many iconic images of stags, particularly in Scotland, knee deep in the purple heather. In particular, the Victorian animal artist Landseer painted two famous pictures: The Monarch of the Glen, view here: http://www.ambaile.org.uk/en/item/item_photograph.jsp?item_id=4336 and The Stag at Bay, view here: http://www.antiquemapsandprints.com/p-0691.jpg The sad thing about the pictures is that these proud, wild animals have been the sport of man since the beginning of time, indeed, are the chosen prey of royalty, although they are now farmed to be shot when we choose. I wonder if this is supposed to have any significance, James, the magnificent beast, born to die, king only of a tract of land fenced by man? Doesn't bode well for our boy, who found his father inside him that night in POA, does it? Going back to Sirius, you caught a good comment there from the movie! And she couldn't have laid more symbolism on with a trowel in the books if she tried. What dog would not have gone mad, cooped up in a house for months? And JKR is a dog-lover, no wonder she wept buckets when she had to have him put him down, which she made sure was as painless and quick as possible.. From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 5 10:23:33 2004 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 11:23:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: two crazy theories: Harry will die and HBP Message-ID: <20040705102333.3934.qmail@web25103.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104372 I have two crazy theories; one about Harry's final destiny and one about who the Half Blood Prince is. I'd love to hear your views. Both theories fit into the framework of my essay, "Harry Potter - Christian Rosycross in Jeans", which is filed under files/essays. The reason my theories are crazy is because they contradict themselves or are physically impossible, and it's crazy to propound theories like that, isn't it? Right at the end of my essay I state: "The emotional ego is situated in the inner sanctuary of heart, the temple-tomb of Venus. Harry will no doubt enter this room and, like CRC, he will be punished by becoming a gatekeeper (and yet coming home)." Here the temple-tomb of Venus is represented in HP as the Room of Love in the MoM. But in the next paragraph I write: "Harry will pass through the Gate of Saturn not to die the ordinary death of us who are shackled to the wheel of reincarnation, but the death of total self-sacrifice.." So what I'm saying is that Harry will die, and yet he'll become gate-keeper. I must admit I couldn't visualise how, in a practical sense, Harry could be made gate-keeper, until my wife pointed out Hagrid's official title, which he tells Harry when they first meet in PS: "Keeper of the Keys and Grounds at Hogwarts". That's it! Harry will become Keeper of the Keys, i.e. Gatekeeper at Hogwarts. He will take over Hagrid's job! So Harry will die, and take over Hagrid's job. Does sound rather crazy, doesn't it. Yet that is what will happen as indicated by the Alchemical Wedding. The reason I feel inspired to tell you this is because just the last few posts have been very interesting in their theories about the Gate of Saturn (the archway with the veil)! There was an extremely interesting post about Greek mythology, and how people have passed through the Gate of Saturn and come back, e.g. Orpheus, Hercules and others. We also had that startling fact about the pomegranate juice! Theories about Harry passing through the Gate and seeing Sirius and Harry's parents, are flying thick and fast. And rightfully so, in my opinion, because it makes my theory look less ridiculous (lol). In addition we've all been speculating what Cuaron put in the film that gave JKR goosebumps. Well, what gave me goosebumps in the film, was the face of Sirius in the crystal ball. That isn't in the book! I suspect these things are all related. I'd also like to throw into the cauldron here Iris' superb post about mirrors, and the fact that Rosicrucians call the sphere of dead the "Mirror Sphere". Perhaps somehow Sirius will communicate to Harry via a crystal ball and help him get through the Gate of Saturn by the use of a mirror - maybe the Mirror of Erised. And perhaps Harry will use the Sirius' magic mirror to find Sirius once he gets through the Gate. Who knows? To sum up theory No. 1: Harry will pass through the Gate of Saturn and return. This will be linked to his defeat of Voldemort. And the story will close with Harry being the Keeper of the Keys and Grounds at Hogwarts. I hope some of you will comment on the likelihood of Harry taking over Hagrid's job! Second theory: the trio is the Half Blood Prince. Actually I must admit I can't see how this could be possible, but at least this theory can claim merit due to the fact that it's the most unlikely one of all (compared to the ones posted here), and therefore might well be the right one, knowing JKR's devious mind. I've already introduced this theory in my post No. 104096. I referred to the Prodigal Son, and to the fact that JKR always lists the trio in the same order. She never varies: H, R and H. And is it a coincidence that HRH stands for His/Her Royal Highness? There's another piece of evidence though. If we look at the magical "blood" of the trio we get: Harry: half-blood. Ron: full-blood. Hermione: mud blood. Total? plus 1 plus 0 = 1. Exactly half of three!! The reason why I'm sticking to this unlikely theory though, is the indications in the Alchemical Wedding. There, six kings and queens are beheaded and their bodies used alchemically to resurrect two of them. I think these six monarchs symbolise the three positive and negative (or creative and receptive) aspects of the human consciousness. If we simplify this and leave out the duality aspect, we get three monarchs. And two of them are wearing crowns, just as in Harry's dream in OoP Hermione and Ron are wearing crowns. Hence my belief is that Harry, Ron and Hermione will become monarchs in the alchemical processes which the books are in fact describing, albeit in a very veiled and symbolical way. They will END UP as monarchs. Who is a candidate for monarchy? A prince! I'm sorry, I know all this sounds crazy, but I can't help believing that JKR means the trio by the Half Blood Prince. But how can three people be a prince? I don't know! Any thoughts? And finally may I say how wonderful some of the posts are just now! Warm regards to all, including those who disagree with me. Hans in Holland ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From paul_terzis at yahoo.gr Mon Jul 5 10:35:44 2004 From: paul_terzis at yahoo.gr (paul_terzis) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 10:35:44 -0000 Subject: Will Harry Die? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104373 A difficult question indeed. It would be a heroic end for our hero but a very sad and more adult-like end. The children will not understand that end. To be honest even I cannot understand that end. >From my school years I remember my literature professor saying that the end of a tragedy is one that leads to the catharsis of the heroes and the audience. And by catharsis we mean peace of mind and soul and of course the sense that justice is prevailed. Somehow I am not sure that we will achieve catharsis with Harry's death. In the other hand we may have a fake death of HP. Driven by his sorrow and his suffering, HP may choose to fabricate his death for the rest of the world and impose himself to a self-exile in order to find his peace of mind. Cheers, Paul " HELLAS: European Soccer Champion 2004 " From firedancerflash at comcast.net Mon Jul 5 10:56:24 2004 From: firedancerflash at comcast.net (Firedancer) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 06:56:24 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Harry and Hermione Foreshadowing in PoA movie? References: Message-ID: <000e01c4627e$b74859f0$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 104374 I think that at this point, it's anybody's guess. I see so much evidence for Ron and Hermione, and the evidence for Harry and Hermione is also compelling. But wouldn't it be a joke on us if she ended up with Seamus, or something? June None but the piper keeps up with the dancer! Siempre revelde!! June From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Jul 5 11:31:58 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 11:31:58 -0000 Subject: McGonagall's character was Re: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104375 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > I've gone up and down the thread, and I still don't think you've > answered the questions this comment has generated. (Mine or others) > C'mon, you always insist on canon support...so what canon support do > you have for McGonagall's character in this case? > > I agree, we can't always trust what characters tells us, but it > helps to have a reason not to trust them. > > Or take a step back and tell us why JKR would have McGonagall > telling us Potter and Black were smart if they were not. > > Potioncat (who hopes everyone can tell this is a friendly challenge) > (and who also hopes there are 2 L's in McGonagall because it would > wake children if I went to check canon.....) Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. I'm really, *really* disappointed with you lot. I thought this was the cream of the HP analysts and LOONs. Apparently not. Looks like I'll have to do your job for you. OK. Timeline. July 1st. Kneasy suggests Sirius isn't very bright, Nora questions this, quoting McGonagall. July 3rd. Kneasy suggests character reading of McGonagall could raise reasonable doubts, *though admits he could be wrong*. He expects a rapid response with a canon-based refutation *which he knows exists* because he found it himself a couple of hours after making his post. He awaits the executioners axe, but it never arrives. Instead all hell breaks loose; accusations of 'cheating' etc, etc. *Nobody* seems to have done a decent canon search, they're too busy getting emotional instead. More fun, I suppose. July 4th Kneasy offers an indication of what would be a refutation that would cause him to concede defeat and withdraw gracefully: ("So, if someone says something which has canon support elsewhere in the books, we can believe it - probably.") Still no canon response. Is everybody asleep? Not good enough folks, not good enough by a long way. It's a pretty poor show when a poster has to prove his own post is wrong when the necessary canon is in plain sight. The canon I've been waiting for someone to post? The backing for McGonagall's statement that would make me withdraw? It's in PoA chap 18. Look it up. Kneasy From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jul 5 11:37:13 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 11:37:13 -0000 Subject: Boggart/ Patronus Musings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104376 -- Smart wrote: And, I have wondered this since I first read it, > how is an OTTER going to save you from a dementor? One, > yeah, if you conjure it in the right direction, but if Hermione had > been attacked like Harry was in the beginning of OotP, Dudley > would be soulless. Either that, or otter's have some ability that i > am unaware of.... > Potioncat: I don't think the form of the Patronus has to do with the way it overpowers dementors, it is the magic of the Patronus that works. I think the form reflects something about the person casting it. From MadameSSnape at aol.com Mon Jul 5 11:38:09 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 07:38:09 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Boggart/ Patronus Musings Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104377 In a message dated 7/5/2004 4:45:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, smartone56441070 at aol.com writes: how is an OTTER going to save you from a dementor? One, yeah, if you conjure it in the right direction, but if Hermione had been attacked like Harry was in the beginning of OotP, Dudley would be soulless. Either that, or otter's have some ability that i am unaware of.... ================= Sherrie here: In Shamanism, Otter has some interesting attributes - especially when applied to Hermione: Woman's healing; sensibility without suspicion; guidance in unmasking talents; psychic awareness; faithfulness; recovery issues; and "understanding the value of playtime". You might check this site http://funkman.org/animal/mammal/otterfamily.html to see a little bit about Otter Spirit. (And it's Beaver that has the broad flat tail to slap the water!) Sherrie "Unless history lives in our present, it has no future." PRESERVE OUR CIVIL WAR BATTLEFIELDS! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Jul 5 11:45:17 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 11:45:17 -0000 Subject: Some Serious points in favour of Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104378 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "smartone564" wrote: > Amey wrote: > > > The gift of Firebolt is his way of showing his affection (and not > apology for attacking Ron as some suggested) > > Who says Sirius ever attacked Ron? True, he entered with force > (but to a painting, not that hard for Filch to 'expertly' re-finish), and > was standing over Ron with a knife, but did he ever hurt Ron? > Let me think..... uh..... Nope, never touched him Apart from attacking Ron and breaking his leg as he dragged him into the tunnel under the Whomping Willow, you mean? Kneasy From saraandra at saraandra.plus.com Mon Jul 5 12:08:15 2004 From: saraandra at saraandra.plus.com (amanitamuscaria1) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 12:08:15 -0000 Subject: Getting to Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104379 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "(Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)" wrote: > | From: amanitamuscaria1 > | Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 08:59 > | AmanitaMuscaria now - Surely what you've just posted, Lee, points > | firmly at the 'socioeconomic distinction'. Who better than the > | Malfoys to be able to get a portkey set up for their convenience? All > | Lucius would have to do is jingle his pocket at Fudge. > > [Lee]: > Ah--well, Lucius, I think, uses more than just his money; he uses his "in > people" at the MOM, etc., so sure, he could probably get a portkey, just as > he got Dd removed from his headmastership in COS, etc. Lucius is a law unto > himself...well, so it seems. Amanitamuscaria again - Of course. But you are now arguing the exact opposite of what your original premise was, IMHO. > > But, for the most part, as far as most wizards are concerned, I still stick > to what I say. AmanitaMuscaria again - Why? You've given no reason or justification. snip > [Lee]: > Well, if we want to be really honest, rules can be "bendy" even in RL. How > many corrupt or problematic figures have appeared in governments large and > small, in the justice system, in any profession one can name? These are > people who bend with whatever wind of change blows, to whoever can find the > right button to push. > > IMHO, Fudge is not very stable; snip > Lee :-) AmanitaMuscaria again : Of course; that's a given, as is that Fudge is for the chop. We see JKR reflect the real world, one of the reasons that the series is neither children's or adult reading exclusively. But we were talking about the class or socioeconomic differences in the wizarding world. Surely the digs of Malfoy Snr. and Jnr. at the Weasley clan lead to several conclusions. The gibes are about the relative influence and wealth of the two families. The gibes strike home in the Weasleys Snr. and Jnr., leading to fights, frustration, and clenched teeth at the least for Arthur and Ron, so they are not secure in their own self-esteem. Molly doesn't react to the taunts in Flourish and Blotts, that may be for lots of reasons. The Malfoys use those specific insults because they know they will be effective, indicating there is a well-defined social hierarchy in the wizarding world. What that reveals of the security of the Malfoys within that hierarchy is best left for another post, I think. Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria From saraandra at saraandra.plus.com Mon Jul 5 12:23:08 2004 From: saraandra at saraandra.plus.com (amanitamuscaria1) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 12:23:08 -0000 Subject: Fear and Valour (Long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104380 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pandrea100" wrote: > Valky wrote a long theory suggesting Voldemort's power is based on > the general fear of saying his name: > > > So to this point I have addressed an argument that Voldemort is > > using a "complex spell model" combining at least two forms of > > powerful magic upon the masses to concrete his dominion of the > > wizard world. > > Further I believe that he has marked his servants as servants of > > this spell. So, whether they want to or not, they WILL fulfill his > > *first priority* of maintaining to the absolute extent of their > > reaches the fear of his name. Because it is incedently ,or actually > > specifically, the one thing that makes him so damn undefeatable. > > This is an interesting theory, but how would Voldemort have > created this "spellform" giving him power through the fear of his > name? Presumably people came to be afraid of him because of his > awful actions, how did he get power to do these before he was so > widely feared? > > Pandrea AmanitaMuscaria now - Pandrea: Voldy would have created his spellform as all tyrants create their own myth - slowly and with care. The same way he became The Dark Lord. He may have styled himself Lord Voldemort to a few select schoolchums whilst he was still in Hogwarts, but he became the Dark Lord and Lord Voldemort truly once he'd gone through the 'many transformations'. It's a gradual process. Valky - A truly excellent and thought-provoking post. The only problem is, you have the outcome being as either good or evil must win - surely the only outcome is a balance or rebalance of good and evil? So in effect 'neither can win whilst the other survives', but that's what life is. Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria From ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 5 05:13:57 2004 From: ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com (ohneill_2001) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 05:13:57 -0000 Subject: Harry Will Not Die.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104381 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Plinker" wrote: > Fudge will die. Snape will die, Dumbledore will probably die. > McGonagall will be headmistress at Hogwarts (she sits at Dumbledore's > right side). > Arthur Weasley will replace Fudge. > Hagrid will become a full wizard and be over Magical Creatures at the > MOM. Ron and Hermione Weasly will live at Hogwarts, where after a > successful Quidditch career, Ron will oversee the matches at > Hogwarts, his wife Hermione, will teach potions and be over Ravenclaw > house. > Neville will become one of the greatest Aurors of the age. > Draco Malfoy will become keeper of keys and grounds at Hogwarts and > live in Hagrids old hut. > Fred and George will become filthy rich selling practical jokes. > Percy will work for his dad. > Harry, after a stint at MOM, will return to his beloved Hogwarts with > his wife Cho, and be a truly fine Dark Arts teacher.He will be over > Gryffidor house. After all Hogwarts is the only home Harry has ever > loved. I'm not sure how much of this was serious and how much you were joking about, but since it's 1 am and I'm sitting at my desk working (and awake only because of the existence of coffee), I'll comment anyway. I like the trio all ending up back at Hogwarts, hopefully following (for Harry) a stint as an Auror. Draco living in Hagrid's old hut is amusing, and not something I would have thought of. I'm not sure it will happen, but I have to think that a comparably humiliating future lies ahead of him, whatever that future may be. The only part of this that I take serious issue with is Harry / Cho. I agree that it's possible they'll end up together, but based on what we know now, I doubt it. I'm still cheering for H/Hr, but if that can't happen then I think Ginny and Luna are both more likely than Cho as Harry's future spouse (although the idea of Harry/Luna doesn't quite work for me, and I'm not even sure why...) We'll see what happens with Cho; she may still have a role to play in the story, but right now I don't think her romantic future with Harry looks all that bright. From silmariel at telefonica.net Mon Jul 5 12:52:21 2004 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (a_silmariel) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 12:52:21 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104382 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: > Carolyn: > > Thinking on James-the-stag a bit more this morning, it's possible we are being asked to make a connection with the many iconic images of stags, particularly in Scotland, [...] > I wonder if this is supposed to have any significance, James, the magnificent beast, born to die, king only of a tract of land fenced by man? Doesn't bode well for our boy, who found his father inside him that night in POA, does it? Oh well, the stag is the king, but the symbolism comes from an era were being a prince did not authomatically give you king status but more the right to fight for your kingdomhood. Of course, you could die in the process, as James. So it is a good chosen symbol for someone who has that prophecy hanging on the head. > Going back to Sirius, you caught a good comment there from the movie! > And she couldn't have laid more symbolism on with a trowel in the > books if she tried. What dog would not have gone mad, cooped up in a house for months? And JKR is a dog-lover, no wonder she wept buckets when she had to have him put him down, which she made sure was as painless and quick as possible.. Sorry to dissapoint you and Jen but I can't consider Sirius being a dog a good proof here, just by the kind of dog he is. He's a big black dog, and that for me has always been the image of a hell dog. Of course, only talking of symbolism here. I can't trust Sirius no matter how hard I try, and I've tried. Somehow, his story doesn't add up. Don't know wich poster said he liked him in GoF but less in PoA and the worst came in OoP. I'd liked a PoA or GoF Sirius if they were the same. But it give me the chills anytime I read anyone of them and then the other. After adapting to a Sirius, I have to cope with someone I don't know, and to asume it's the same person. I won't enter on the point-by-point discussion, because it has been heavily covered by all sides. I've been thinking about this thread, and 24hrs, and ended asking myself a question. Well. Sirius is bad. So what. How does it change the plot? This is thinking on Barry's idea that Sirius wouldn't last five minutes under Voldie's sutile interrogation techniques. I agree. But none would last Peter or Lupin. The whole thing of choosing one the 3 is dumb. Everyone knew they were friends. If they were trying to be betrayed and/or getting sure that a friend would fall with them, they couldn't have done better. If I randomly choose a traitor, what makes them a poorer option than Sirius? The answer is love, I suppose. Another listie asked why Crouch Jr. taught the curses to the children in PoA. Discussion digressed on wich of Harry's classmates would be imperiod. This is nice as hint giving, but I also see a simpler motive. He taught the Curses so that Harry could use them in the future. Let's help him approach his dark side without noticing. In Sirius case, we know as a side effect of his death he's been prevented from Voldie's mind invasion. Know let's suppose he's bad. A nice scenario in wich he turns sides at the DoM and flees. If the person he trusted beyond all does this, I can see as a result a ready to be invaded Harry. Carolina From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jul 5 13:16:49 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 13:16:49 -0000 Subject: McGonagall's character was Re: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104383 Kneasy wrote: > > The canon I've been waiting for someone to post? The backing for > McGonagall's statement that would make me withdraw? > It's in PoA chap 18. > Look it up. > > Potioncat: Clever! Too clever, Sir! We must all hang our heads in shame and admit that you have twice over duped us! You have sent us to the very site that supports your original statement! PoA, chapter 18: Remus Lupin is speaking, "Your father and Sirius here were the cleverest students in the school, and lucky they were, because the Animagus transformation can go horribly wrong--one reason the Ministry keeps a close watch on those attempting to do it." Well, that proves that McGonagall was most likely exagerating when she said they were bright. After all Remus? REMUS? We know he is either ESE!Lupin who was saying this to save his own neck via Black's. Or he is weak, lonely Lupin and he'll say anything to keep a friend. So when he says James and Sirius were clever, he was just being nice to Sirius. And when he says that's one reason the Ministry watches it, he was just making his comment sound even better. We know the only reason the Ministry registers animagi is so they can keep an eye on dagerous wizards. So I concur, McGonagall is not to be trusted. Potioncat From silmariel at telefonica.net Mon Jul 5 13:29:08 2004 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (a_silmariel) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 13:29:08 -0000 Subject: 24 hours (was Re: About Prophesies and Protections) In-Reply-To: <20040703070214.20873.qmail@webmail7.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104384 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amey Chinchorkar" wrote: >>>Carolina : > >>>Look in the PS/DVD. There's an interview with Rowling where she talks about that scene. At least in the spanish edition. >>>That's why I consider those few seconds canon (or very close to) and I find interesting the 'You heard James?' line combined with James specifically not appearing in the scene. > - Amey: > A really good observation, and that casts a different light on the scene. But in GoF, Harry hears his father saying your mother is coming, then he might wonder if this was not the voice he heard. It is possible that he is a bit preoccupied then in fight than the voice, but still its a theory. (Though this part is removed from GoF now, so the whole theory might be wrong :)) I'm not saying James wasn't there. I can hardly assume anything that night. Only that the fact he does not appear in the 'camera (not harry's) pov' is quite interesting, because that means something we must not see was going on camera. What happened? I don't know, but I expect the author to oversmart us, not to write a 'it was nothing, after all' scene. Something is rotten in James' death. Carolina From yutu75es at yahoo.es Mon Jul 5 13:32:51 2004 From: yutu75es at yahoo.es (fridwulfa hagrid) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 15:32:51 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Return from the Underworld in Greek Mythology (Re: Sirius Black Poll) References: Message-ID: <00c801c46294$965dad60$3a806750@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 104385 Smart wrote: > > If Harry is to travel > through the veil and come back.... why can't Sirius just come > back? Yes, Sirius is dead, I know this. However, I am > concerned with how Harry is going to get to the underworld, and > if it is through this veil, what is going to anchor him 'alive', so that > he is able to come back? Me (fridwulfa): Well, I don't know. Maybe if he goes through the veil voluntaryly he can come back. There are plenty of things we don't know yet about JK's magical universe, so... But remember that all of us who think Harry will go the "underworld" and live to tell the tale are more or less basing our theories on ancient myths, and in all of them without exception the "hero" was able to return to the "living world" so... How? Your guess is as good as mine, but there has to be a way, and I'm positive Harry will find it. THere's something else I think can play an important part later on, and that's Harry's disposition for self-sacrifice. At the end of OotP, he is willing to die. I think that's what finally makes LV to leave Harry's body, not just Harry's love for his godfather, but his eagerness to die and join Sirius. LV seeks inmortality, Harry knows or feels dying can not be such a terrible thing if it means meeting with his loved ones again. That's what makes them different, this particular scene is one of those in which our choices make a change, Harry choices not to fight LV and allow him to destroy him in order to be with Sirius and that's what, in the end, draws LV away. I think we'll see something similar in the final confrontation between the two of them. Well, just a few thoughts. Cheers, Fridwulfa Tired, and frustrated because my computer has decided to do whatever it pleases and not what I want it to do. > > > > ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > > Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > From lavaluvn at yahoo.com Mon Jul 5 05:22:56 2004 From: lavaluvn at yahoo.com (lavaluvn) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 05:22:56 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited--what if? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104386 CAsey: > My take on Sirius is that he's like one of those people we all know > be they the jocks or just popular. Cute, funny, wicked sense of > humor, but using it to tell racist or gay jokes. They make their > friends laugh because what they say IS funny, but it's still wrong > and petty and, well, racist. They think they are right and anyone > that isn't as cute or rich or athletic is fair game for their put- > down. Enough of an egoist that attempted murder can be lauged off as > just another joke. You feel special when you are included in their > circle, but at the same time think it makes you a little > uncomfortable. > > Andromeda: You've got a point, no question they are arrogant, but on the other hand, the only person we see them picking on IS an admitted racist (calling Lily a "Mudblood"), which appalls them. A few posts back someone (sorry, forgot name!) asked why James doesn't get a fraction of the bad publicity Sirius gets. I do agree - James clearly was the one instigating and leading the Snape- tormenting. I suspect (hope) that someday (soon, please??) we'll find out WHY Snape was their target and what he had done to deserve or at least attract their animosity. I think James' "well because he exists" is a coverup for something done to him he doesn't want to admit in front of Lily and lose face. From caseylane at wideopenwest.com Mon Jul 5 05:54:54 2004 From: caseylane at wideopenwest.com (Casey) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 05:54:54 -0000 Subject: HBP and COS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104387 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jakedjensen" wrote: > Almost a year ago there was a thread focused on what scene JKR told > S. Kloves (screenwriter for HP movies) not to cut from COS because it > was important for the series. Now there is all this talk about the > HBP and, primarily, who the HBP might be. Is it possible that the > scene in COS where S. Finnegan reveals his background (i.e., that he > is a half blood) is the scene JKR saved from the cutting room floor? Wasn't Seamus' parental revelation in PS/SS? He said his "Mam was a with and his father was a Muggle." I don't remember a CoS discussion about this. I'm not saying it isn't him, just that the revelation was in the first book. Casey From finwitch at yahoo.com Mon Jul 5 08:59:36 2004 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 08:59:36 -0000 Subject: Return from the Underworld in Greek Mythology (Re: Sirius Black Poll) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104388 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "smartone564" wrote: > > Yes, this is all good and stuff.... and I also agree with the idea of > Sirius coming back (particularly with the pompegrante juice), but > I have serious issues with one .... issue? If Harry is to travel > through the veil and come back.... why can't Sirius just come > back? Yes, Sirius is dead, I know this. However, I am > concerned with how Harry is going to get to the underworld, and > if it is through this veil, what is going to anchor him 'alive', so that > he is able to come back? Though, otherwise, I am with > Fridwulfa's specific take on this (Sirius won't come back, but will > have useful information). Well, I think it sort of depends on just WHAT is behind the veil. And while I do hope that Sirius will come back trough the veil, I doubt he will... Now, I think that the Veil is like a fish-trap entrance - you can only go IN trough it. However, a ghost could return (walls don't stop them either) trough the same place. I do think that there IS a way out, though - one that Harry can use but Sirius not... one that any phoenix will use to reborn. And why can't Sirius use it? It's too high up, that's why, and probably one you need to pass FAST... if Harry's a phoenix animagus/has a firebolt with him - he CAN get trough! (but even so, it would be difficult) Anyway, I am curious! Finwitch From lavaluvn at yahoo.com Mon Jul 5 09:23:07 2004 From: lavaluvn at yahoo.com (lavaluvn) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 09:23:07 -0000 Subject: Absolutist/Boggart&Patronus/HappyMarriage/Floo$/Evil/NameMagic/Martyrdom/Rats In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104389 > Katie anthyroserain wrote in > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/104168 : > > > I think Dumbledore's Patronus is a phoenix (not an original idea). I > think at this time his Boggart would be Harry dead, defeated by > Voldemort. Partly because of the affection he unexpectedly came to > feel for Harry, but mainly because Harry is his only weapon against > Voldemort, so he can't afford to lose that weapon before victory. > > I'm confused about what his Boggart would have been back in the first > Voldemort war, or before that when he defeated Grindelwald ... Not > Voldemort, because he isn't afraid of Voldemort. Not a Dementor, > because he isn't afraid of Dementors. Not seeing the wizarding > government act like a bunch of idiots, because he's seen that so many > times already. Seeing his good students choose evil, maybe... > Andromeda: Maybe a dirty pair of socks? > I suspect that Snape doesn't have a Patronus, due to not having any > happy memories. (Yes, Andromeda!) Ah! A kindred spirit! and too many other comments to comment on, until... > > Joceyn wrote in > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/104220 : > > << Arthur does also serve to show a loving marriage-bond in action. It > really doesn't seem as if Harry has seen many normal happy families - > and while this is definitely not a perfect marriage, it is a happy one. >> > Katie (?): > Loathsome as the Dursleys are, Vernon and Petunia appear to love and > help each other. > Andromeda again: This appears to me to possibly be a big difference between the upbringings of Harry and those of Tom Riddle and Sirius Black (some posters have been discussing the similarities/differences). However much the Dursleys detested and abused Harry, they did love each other and Dudley. Tom and Sirius had no such examples, as far as we know. Sirius, for heaven's sake, grew up in a house where they cut off the servants' heads when they got too old. And put them on the wall. Urgh! And people expect him to behave like a normal person???!! I think he did well to even try to escape the legacy and latch onto the Potters. I find him far more of a tragic figure than a sinister one. One who wants to do the right thing, but never seems to get it quite right. From kreneeb at hotmail.com Mon Jul 5 13:51:53 2004 From: kreneeb at hotmail.com (hermionekitten9) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 13:51:53 -0000 Subject: Movie PoA Foreshadows Books 6 & 7 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104390 mayeaux45 >Clue 2) There is a foreshadowing "love triangle" between Harry, >Hermione, and Ron. The decision is all Hermione's and no one >elses. It's up to her in the end who she will choose. Anasazi I agree with this one. Specially in the fact that it will be Hermione's choice and no one elses. kitten says I don't understand the statement "Hermione's choice and no one else's" aren't there *two* people in a relationship? This is what we can gather... Ron likes Hermione; there is lots of evidence to support this. We do not know if Hermione returns those feelings, there is evidence that says she does and that she doesn't, all depending on how you want to read the books. We do know that Harry has NEVER shown ANY interest in Hermione other then being his friend. There is also evidence that Hermione likes Harry, but once again it's all based on how one interprets the book. If Hermione where to *choose* Ron, I'm pretty certain he would be all for it, therefore making the decision to become a couple both of theirs. Or lets say that Luna undergoes a complete personality change, gets some "work" done, combs her hair, ect ect... and Ron goes for her, leaving Hermione out in the cold... thereby making the decision Ron's... And what about Harry? Do you honestly think that if Hermione says, "Come Harry" He would? Doesn't Harry have some say in the decision as well? There is no evidence IMO that says he would be willing to make Hermione his girlfriend if she so *chooses* him. Anyway... the point I'm trying to make is that there are *two* people in a relationship. I know that this is suppose to be about foreshadowing in the movies, and I apologize for changing the subject... I just didn't agree with the statement that's its Hermione choice, and no one else's. Kitten Who ships Harry with Susan Bones, and even though she didn't sound like it, does adore Luna I was just trying to be funny-g- From lavaluvn at yahoo.com Mon Jul 5 09:31:40 2004 From: lavaluvn at yahoo.com (lavaluvn) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 09:31:40 -0000 Subject: Some Serious points in favour of Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104391 Amey wrote: > > > The gift of Firebolt is his way of showing his affection (and not > apology for attacking Ron as some suggested) > Smart wrote: > Who says Sirius ever attacked Ron? True, he entered with force > (but to a painting, not that hard for Filch to 'expertly' re- finish), and > was standing over Ron with a knife, but did he ever hurt Ron? > Let me think..... uh..... Nope, never touched him, he in fact ran > when he was discovered. Remember, he was looking for > Scabbers here, and NOT Ron. Had Seamus owned Scabbers, > (and Sirius found out about it elsewhere) he would have been > standing over Seamus's bed, looking for Scabbers. Andromeda here: Well, Sirius did drag Ron into the Shrieking Shack and break his leg, right? I suspect that is the act for which he might want to apologize. Although I think he did apologize. But I, too, think he just wanted to give Harry a nice present after being out of touch so many years and to say "thanks for saving my soul from being sucked out of my body". He did give Ron the owl (Pig) as a consolation prize. Andromeda - knowing that others will probably reply before mine gets posted; my Elf is probably still asleep like the rest of world when you're up late in Hawaii time. From finwitch at yahoo.com Mon Jul 5 10:37:31 2004 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 10:37:31 -0000 Subject: Royalty? In-Reply-To: <000701c4611e$bb60e860$6401a8c0@C3P0> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104392 > Melissa: > > It seems odd that the WW is based on Muggle Britain in every BUT royalty. > > > I think that the closest canon have for the WW acknowledging the Queen is > > Fudge stating that he notified his Muggle counterpart of Sirius' escape in > > POA. If the Muggle PM knows about the WW then there's a good possiblilty > > that the Queen knows as well. (and wouldn't Sir Nick have been knighted > > the Sovereign back in his day??) Maren Gest: > That's a really good point! I sure can't wait for the next book to come out, I'm not sure that the WW has the same royalty laws.. after all they really aren't at all the same world. Finwitch: Well, Harry could be a descendant of the legendary king Arthur Pendragon (Merlin has been mentioned too many times for HP World not to be connected...) And from what I have read from history books, the current dynasty is NOT one to descend from king Arthur... ... so why not make Harry descend from king Arthur? Well, for one thing I don't think Harry being a descendant to king Arthur, Merlin, any of the Four Founders or any other famous wizard would really add much to the story, and all this talk about CHOICES showing who we are... you know, I don't think there's really any need for a 'lost heir' personality for Harry, he's already more famous than he wants to be. But family-- well, finding a family chart that makes him a relative to Dumbledore or Moody or Weasley? What I want to see most is how Harry leaves the Dursleys this time. First book: Hagrid picks him up for supplies, (and they go Muggle way) and Vernon gives him a ride to the platform (because Hagrid gave Dudley a pig-tail) - this due to the letters from Hogwarts, letters stolen by Dursleys - (but Harry does SEE them and try to catch them). Lack of answer brought help... second book: Harry's letters are stolen again, only this time by a house-elf. Harry didn't even see them until Dobby's there. The only letter he DOES get, is the warning about underage magic. his lack of answer a letter brings help again, this time in from of a flying car and three Weasleys... This time, Harry's gone while Dursleys sleep... third: Harry DOES get his mail properly this time. only real problem is lack of signature in that permission slip, and when he must send Hedwig to Ron's for caring... Harry gets taunted worse than ever by Vernon's sister, Marjorie Dursley. He DOES do his best to keep his anger under control, by thinking about the Broom-caring book Hermione sent him, motivated by (false?) hope of getting the permission slip... and loses control of his anger, thus his magic, resulting in blown up aunt Marge. This time, Harry leaves in defiance of Dursleys, acting on himself, leaving - and gets picked up by a Knight bus for supplies (and spending time in Diagon Alley) and later, to the platform by car (Ministry car this time)... fourth: Harry threatens Vernon with Sirius when Weasleys offer to take him to Quidditch World Cup (still keeping a bit of defiance, though a bit different way) like in the first book, Dudley gets 'hit' by magic (only this time because he eats wizard candy - thus not only violating his diet, but also being a bit dishonest). Dursley act is, again, reluctant, but they DO know and Harry goes. Like in second, Weasleys provide transport (Floo powder), like in third, Sirius has a part to play (giving example in third via TV, in fourth a suitable threat to use on Vernon) Harry spends time in Weasleys AGAIN (as he did in second book, but Molly gets his supplies instead...) fifth: Harry uses magic again - this time because there are Dementors attacking him and Dudley. This time, Dursleys are ignorant of Harry's leaving, due to being hoodwinked by Tonks. (in that, it's a bit like second book. Harry is invited for a trial!). This time Harry's picked up by a group of people, he FLIES on broomstick... I wonder - will Harry go in uncontrollable anger, in defiance, on his own again in sixth book? Yet, it needs to be different from all the others, and include something to link it to previous books... (and um - Harry's going to be of age by wizarding standards in book 7, so maybe in THAT book, he'll just apparate away!) Finwitch From lavaluvn at yahoo.com Mon Jul 5 10:55:31 2004 From: lavaluvn at yahoo.com (lavaluvn) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 10:55:31 -0000 Subject: Pensieve scene - Lily revealed? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104393 I apologize for most likely repeating ideas (nothing new under the sun and all), but does anyone else think that the Pensieve scene of James tormenting Snape was as much to reveal Lily's character as anything? As much as we've ever been given, anyway. I think she came out looking rather impressive. Lupin, who should've been the one to stop his friends' bad behavior, was clearly afraid to say anything to them (that description of his eyes pretending to move over his reading... he knew what he should do, but didn't dare, just like Ron with his brothers), but Lily stepped right inbetween, even to defend a racist jerk. Having never actually seen an example of a teen peer willing to get between an armed bully and his (also armed) victim, I find this a mark of a truly strong and brave person. I just wish we would hear more specifically about her. I actually liked the POA movie addition having Lupin discuss Lily to Harry. While reading the books I'm always wishing we could hear more about her. Lupin may very well have loved Lily, and as co-prefects they must have spent some time together, but he knew he was too much of a moral coward to deserve her affection in the end. Well, maybe that's a little harsh, but by the end of that Penseive scene, were you not disgusted by everyone but Lily? Maybe 15-year- old boys just aren't very likeable? Harry, of course, was focused on the shock of his father's behavior.. after all his idolizing of his father throughout the other books, not too surprising, even though it was his mother that saved his life. She's gotten suspiciously short shrift. Saving up some bombshells for the end, I hope. Just out of curiosity, have any of you ever tried to stop a bully in action? I have vague memories of someone on this list probably a year ago (!) talking about doing so, but can't remember. I must shamefully admit to being one of those who would have slunk away grateful it wasn't me. Back in my teen days, anyway (what, iron age, at least). Now, to defend my own children, different story.... Andromeda Who has gone on way too long tonight and should now go to bed. From griffin782002 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 5 11:07:58 2004 From: griffin782002 at yahoo.com (sp. sot.) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 04:07:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who is the Half Blood Prince? In-Reply-To: <20040705004046.93230.qmail@web52205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040705110758.25051.qmail@web90009.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104394 Ruth wrote: When the Weasley twins explain the Marauder's Map to Harry, they tell him that they used to use a certain tunnel under Hogwarts but it's been caved in, blocked. What blocked it? My guess is the rebounding curse of Professor Lockheart using Ron's damaged wand and the subsequent rockslide that separated Harry from Ron. It suggests that there may have been more than one entry to the Chamber of Secrets, and that the Chamber contained more secrets than just Tom Riddle and the Basilisk. And you needn't be a Parselmouth to access it. The Weasley twins may simply have followed the easiest path and ignored the movie-oriented doorway to Salazar Slytherin's secret chamber. Why the Marauder's Map could discern the tunnel and none of the elder wise wizards could - well, that's anyone's guess. Griffin782002 now: Em.....I disagree slightly on this point. Ron managed to open a passage when Ginny and Harry came back. Unless of course there was further rockslides. Griffin782002 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From claire_elise2003 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 5 11:17:31 2004 From: claire_elise2003 at yahoo.com (claire_elise2003) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 11:17:31 -0000 Subject: Does the prophecy suggest that both have to die (was: Harry will die) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104395 There has been so much speculation that the prophecy suggests that both Harry and LV must die at the end, that I went back and re-read it for the zillionth time. Unfortunately I don't have it in front of me now, but I recall it saying something like: "Either must die at the hand of the other, for neither can live whilst the other is alive". To my reading, this means EITHER Harry will die at the hand of Voldemort (or would that really be at the hand of PP, whose hand Voldemort has? Is LV's wand hand his left or his right? But I digress.) OR LV will die at the hand of Harry. The use of "either" means that the two are mututally exclusive. The second part of the phrase follows on from that. As neither Harry can survive whilst LV is alive, nor can LV survive while Harry is alive: the death of one of them will mean that the remaining one survives. It doesn't require both to die. Carefully worded, of course, but still fairly clear to me. Or am I missing something? claire_elise From elizabethleclerc at hotmail.com Mon Jul 5 12:41:41 2004 From: elizabethleclerc at hotmail.com (mrslestrange) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 12:41:41 -0000 Subject: My Heart of It All Theory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104396 First off, this theory came to me in the middle of the night, a wild idea, so please be kind. Consider JKR's plot twists, usually playing upon something we *think* we know, but are mistaken about. In the books, what is every character sure about, but what does no one really know about? Godric's Hollow and how Harry got his scar. What Harry remembers specifically about that night, from the beginning, is green light--a curse. What is Voldemort obsessed with? Eternal life. What does Dumbledore suggest in book 1 isn't as hot as it sounds? Eternal life. If you're in a situation where someone is about to kill your child, and you must do something, anything, and quickly, what might you curse your child with? Immortality. Wouldn't that make Avada Kedavra rebound? Have I been reading Tuck Everlasting overmuch? :) This emphasizes the end of the seventh book, and the extreme importance of the scar finally vanishing. Remember, for instance, from CoS, that mandrake also restores people who have been cursed? I mean, come on. A kid's got to wait 5 years for Hermione's words to sink in? Best, Bella ................................. From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Mon Jul 5 13:09:32 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 09:09:32 -0400 Subject: Snape Question Message-ID: <000e01c46291$519f2260$9662d1d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 104397 I'm sorry if this has been asked before, and if it has, perhaps someone can point me to the messages on the discussion. In GoF, Chap 30, "The Pensieve" DD says "Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater. However, he rejoined (emphasis mine) our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk. He is now no more a Death Eater than I am." My dictionary says rejoined means 'to join again.' Does this mean that Snape was a member of the Order, left (for some reason) to be a Death Eater, then returned (for some reason) to the Order and turned spy? He is an accomplished Occlumens, could he have possibly become a Death Eater only to be a spy for the Order? Just a curiosity as I came across it in reading this morning. Cathy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stargaz77 at aol.com Mon Jul 5 13:10:35 2004 From: stargaz77 at aol.com (Linda) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 13:10:35 -0000 Subject: Will Harry Die? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104398 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "paul_terzis" wrote: > A difficult question indeed. It would be a heroic end for our > hero but a very sad and more adult-like end. The children will not > understand that end. I think I agree with your reasoning Paul. I too have wondered if Harry will die in the end, and I keep coming back to the same conclusion, that this book series is targeted to 9-12 year olds and it would be too tragic to this age group to kill Harry off in the end. I think that age group needs to see Harry be the hero and survive. Just my opinion and very much influenced because I WANT him to survive :) (so he will forever be the boy who lived). Having said that, I think its wonderful that she is exploring death in the books and this helps children to learn to cope with death through Harry's eyes. I have 3 daughters (16,10,8) myself and we talk about life and death often. They have a healthy understanding about it at this point, I must say. We have often talked about Harry Potter and his parents,and Sirius, for example, to help them get a better understanding to one of life's great questions. Celestina From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jul 5 14:13:17 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 14:13:17 -0000 Subject: Snape Question In-Reply-To: <000e01c46291$519f2260$9662d1d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104399 Cathy > Does this mean that Snape was a member of the Order, left (for some reason) to be a Death Eater, then returned (for some reason) to the Order and turned spy? He is an accomplished Occlumens, could he have possibly become a Death Eater only to be a spy for the Order? > > Just a curiosity as I came across it in reading this morning. Potioncat: Here is my take on that discussion. Snape left the "good" side, that is the WW in general, when he joined LV and "rejoined" the good side when he came back and started spying. I think the main point was that he left LV before LV's downfall. Other DEs were claiming Imperius afterwards. Along that line, I'm not sure everyone knows about the Order. Welcome to the group. You've made several very good posts already! Potioncat From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Jul 5 14:37:23 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 14:37:23 -0000 Subject: My Heart of It All Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104400 Bella wrote: This emphasizes the end of the seventh book, and the extreme importance of the scar finally vanishing. Remember, for instance, from CoS, that mandrake also restores people who have been cursed? I mean, come on. A kid's got to wait 5 years for Hermione's words to sink in? vmonte responds: I believe that the mandrake restores those that have been petrified and those that have been transformed (not cursed). I remember this because it really sounds like a JKR clue. This fact about the mandrake's ability will probably resurface. vivian From yutu75es at yahoo.es Mon Jul 5 14:46:17 2004 From: yutu75es at yahoo.es (fridwulfa hagrid) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 16:46:17 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: My Heart of It All Theory References: Message-ID: <00f001c4629e$e4f60620$3a806750@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 104401 > Bella wrote: > > This emphasizes the end of the seventh book, and the extreme > importance of the scar finally vanishing. Remember, for instance, from > CoS, that mandrake also restores people who have been cursed? I mean, > come on. A kid's got to wait 5 years for Hermione's words to sink in? > > me (fridwulfa): We're taking for granted that the scar will vanish, but we don't really know. The only thing we know for sure is that the last word will be "scar", but that's all. JKR never said the scar would vanish, it's just one of the many theories around. Cheers, Fridwulfa From sherriola at earthlink.net Mon Jul 5 15:06:29 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 09:06:29 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fear and Valour (Long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002501c462a1$aec8abe0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 104402 In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pandrea100" wrote: > Valky wrote a long theory suggesting Voldemort's power is based on > the general fear of saying his name: > > > So to this point I have addressed an argument that Voldemort is > > using a "complex spell model" combining at least two forms of > > powerful magic upon the masses to concrete his dominion of the > > wizard world. > > Further I believe that he has marked his servants as servants of > > this spell. So, whether they want to or not, they WILL fulfill his > > *first priority* of maintaining to the absolute extent of their > > reaches the fear of his name. Because it is incedently ,or actually > > specifically, the one thing that makes him so damn undefeatable. > Sherry now I've been thinking along these lines as well. I've never yet heard a death eater call Voldemort by his name. In fact, though I have nothing but gut instinct, this is one of the reasons I don't believe in ESE Lupin or Black. They freely say his name. They are not afraid of him. The death eaters fear Voldemort, that is part of the hold he has over them. I think you could have a good idea here. If more and more people stopped being afraid to say the name, they would be less afraid of the man. I've always thought this was part of the key to undoing him. Question though, did fake Moody say the name? My books are in Braille, which in the case of GOF is about 10 volumes, pages about 11 by 14 inches and each volume about 2 inches thick. It's kind of a pain to try to browse and find scenes with fake moody to see if he spoke the name or used terms like the dark lord. Sherry G From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Mon Jul 5 15:14:23 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 15:14:23 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104403 SSSusan: >>> I thought I liked him; I thought I could *fairly* easily defend him if I gave some time & thought to it. But you two have stunned me into thinking I can't. I mean, saying he has a whim of iron [great phrase] strikes me as so true, and it does seem to follow that if faced with a personal stance that goes against good vs. evil, well, *would* he make the tougher choice?? I'm not so sure. <<< Kneasy: >> Oi! None of that! Stick to your guns, you may yet be right. Just because there's a couple of posts that slipped past your guard, that's no excuse to give up on Sirius. What is needed is *proof* - and so far nobody's seen any. Persuasive verbosity is no match for eventual canon. Theories and suppositions are fun to construct but mean little unless JKR gives them the nod. As a leading light in the Sirius Protection League you can't falter now. Have you no faith in your hero? << Jen: > OK Kneasy, I have proof that Sirius is meant to be a good > character. Sure, you've heard it before, but it's basically > irrefutable fact: JKR made his animagus form a dog. It's that > simple! A dog, a pack animal, an animal who believes there's no > shame in establishing a pecking order and that some dogs get to be > alphas and some dogs don't. He's fiercely loyal to his pack, > unafraid of crossing other animals who wander into his territory, > and follows instinct rather than reason. There, Sirius in a > nutshell. > Even in Potterverse, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. If JKR > tells me Pettigrew turns into a rat when he transforms, then we > find out he ratted out his friends, well that's enough information > for me to decide what Sirius' character is (and wonder why they > never suspected Pettigrew was the spy?). He can be ferocious, and > might go bad if provoked enough, but Sirius' true form is innately > loyal and eager to please. > > Jen, loyal member of the Sirius Protection League SSSusan: Woo hoo!! I go to bed, wondering if I can think of how to answer Kneasy, and get up to find that Jen has taken care of it quite nicely for me. :-) I shouldn't be surprised at that, as Jen & I are quite eerily like-minded when it comes to all things Potter, and she is a better writer & theorizer than I am. It's been interesting to read Carolyn's & Andromeda's additional responses to Jen. I love the Sirius-as-Big-Black Dog explanation, and it answers some things for me. Carolina's post [104382] has also gotten me into the mood to actually come back & defend Sirius a bit! She wrote: > Sorry to dissapoint you and Jen but I can't consider Sirius being a > dog a good proof here, just by the kind of dog he is. He's a big > black dog, and that for me has always been the image of a hell > dog. Of course, only talking of symbolism here. SSSusan: I recognize your absolute right to respond to the symbolism any way you like, but I do wonder whether lots of owners of black labs wouldn't have a *very* different reaction to Sirius-as-big-black-dog than this. I know I didn't think of him at ALL as a hell dog. Carolina: > I can't trust Sirius no matter how hard I try, and I've tried. > Somehow, his story doesn't add up. > Don't know wich poster said he liked him in GoF but less in PoA and > the worst came in OoP. I'd liked a PoA or GoF Sirius if they were > the same. But it give me the chills anytime I read anyone of them > and then the other. After adapting to a Sirius, I have to cope > with someone I don't know, and to asume it's the same person. > > I won't enter on the point-by-point discussion, because it has been > heavily covered by all sides. > I've been thinking about this thread, and 24hrs, and ended asking > myself a question. Well. Sirius is bad. So what. How does it change > the plot? SSSusan: That's interesting that you got chills when reading Sirius' character in any successive book and found him unrecognizable. I wasn't the one who said so to the list, but I am one who found Sirius harder to take in OoP. I enjoyed him in PoA and GoF. And while I found him harder to take in OoP, I didn't get the sense that he was written so differently as to be unrecognizable as the same person. To me OoP Sirius was a lot like OoP Harry. Sirius was surly, grumpy, argumentative and more reckless in OoP. I think this was due, in large part, to his inability to DO anything--useful or otherwise. He wasn't even able to turn into his Big Schweetie Dog Self and romp around; he just felt trapped in GP. Lots of people didn't care much for Harry in OoP either, with all his outbursts and snarkiness. *I* felt that he was spot-on what I would expect him to act like, at that age, facing what he's faced, and feeling that he's being both kept in the dark and ignored by DD. He was ANGRY and resentful of the burdens thrust upon him, and I understood that. I also understood Sirius' frustration and anger in OoP. Neither was necessarily pleasant to read about, but I thought both were written as to be understandable. As for the contention of Sirius as BAD, I find I can't go that far. I've come to realize his flaws may have been deeper than I first wanted to admit, and I've come to acknowledge that he was likely more selfish than I first realized. But I don't agree that he was BAD. He wanted to be useful, he loved Harry, he hated Lord Thingy & the Dark Arts, he was loyal to his friends. He was flawed, but he wasn't BAD, imo. There. Does that reinstate me in the Sirius Protection League, or does it leave me firmly atop the fence?? Siriusly Snapey Susan From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Jul 5 15:23:13 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 15:23:13 -0000 Subject: My Heart of It All Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104404 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mrslestrange" wrote: > First off, this theory came to me in the middle of the night, a wild > idea, so please be kind. > > Consider JKR's plot twists, usually playing upon something we *think* > we know, but are mistaken about. In the books, what is every character > sure about, but what does no one really know about? Godric's Hollow > and how Harry got his scar. What Harry remembers specifically about > that night, from the beginning, is green light--a curse. > > What is Voldemort obsessed with? Eternal life. What does Dumbledore > suggest in book 1 isn't as hot as it sounds? Eternal life. If you're > in a situation where someone is about to kill your child, and you must > do something, anything, and quickly, what might you curse your child > with? Immortality. Wouldn't that make Avada Kedavra rebound? > Jen: There's a very interesting theory in the Fantastic Posts section called Stoned!Harry, which explores Harry as the living embodiment of the Philosopher's Stone. The idea is based on alchemical interpretation of symbols in the series, and some of the related posts are fascinating. Anyway, it makes for a good read for anyone considering Harry's mortality, and the possibility that he is immortal and will have to give it up to defeat Voldemort. I was convinced! After all, we know after OOTP Harry is willing to die and wouldn't be impressed by immortality in the least. Here's the link: http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/hypotheticalley.html#ps This theory is under the section called Other Theories. Jen Reese From srobles at caribe.net Mon Jul 5 03:39:49 2004 From: srobles at caribe.net (anasazi_pr) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 03:39:49 -0000 Subject: Harry uses Hermione's wand to kill Volemort? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104405 I'm a H/Hr, and I can unbiasedly tell you that there are hints in the movie to keep both shippers happy. And about the H/Hr clues you were speaking about, I think you should add one that may be the most important one (not necesarily in the shippy sense, but as a foreshadow of what may happen in Book Six/Seven)... and is the powerful spell that Harry achieves when he uses Hermione's wand. Since we have been purposely kept in the dark by JKR as to the core of Hermione's wand (seeing as Hermione is one of her favorite characters, I don't think JKR will neglect a little detail like that unless it will prove to be a very important detail for the remaining books. So, let's do a bit of hypothesizing... since Harry can't kill Voldemort with his own wand (the twin effect), what if he uses Hermione's wand to do it? What if Hermione's wand is made of a core more powerful than the phoenix or the unicorn? Or if she infuses it with a spell not unlike Lily's original protection? Now, this can be viewed in both the shippy and the non-shippy way. Hermione's love for Harry might be what gives the wand the extra power it needs against LV... or her friendship, loyalty or sacrifice will give the wand the extra-edge Harry will need for the final fight. Anyway, I think that's one of the biggest foreshadowings in the movie. Night, Anasazi From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Mon Jul 5 13:12:31 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 5 Jul 2004 13:12:31 -0000 Subject: About Dogs and Message-ID: <20040705131231.16779.qmail@webmail30.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104406 Hi all, >>>>>>>Favorite Lines >>>>>>>Ariana's entries: >>>>>>>> Mrs Weasley and George on prefects: >>>>>>>'I don't believe it! I don't believe it! Oh, Ron, how >>>>>>>wonderful! A prefect! >>>>>>>That's everyone in the family!' >>>>>>>'What are Fred and I, next-door neighbours?' Amey here: Hey, I just remembered some posters thinking that some of the Weasley's might not be pure blood (forgot the thread). So, is this just absent-mindedness on Molly's part due to happyness (which we know she is capable of, remember Ron and his sandwitches) or does it point to something? Just as there are two different looking sets of children there (I don't have my books here, so I don't remember if they are shown similar to one parent each), this might point to something. Just a thought. >>>>>>>Batchevra : >>>>>>>I had to snip some of your interesting post, I apologize, but this is where I >>>>>>>would like to answer. Peter Pettigrew wasn't as bright as Sirius, James and >>>>>>>Remus, but he was smart and did have some powerful abilities. Even though he >>>>>>>needed help with becoming an Animagus, he did become one. As for him being the >>>>>>>spy, I think we have part of the story from the picture that Moody shows Harry >>>>>>>in OOTP. In the picture, Pettigrew is sitting in between Lily and James. >>>>>>>Sirius is sitting next to James and Remus is sitting alone in another spot. Now the >>>>>>>interesting part here is Pettigrew is in between Lily and James, if wizard >>>>>>>photographs show the intent or personality of the person at the time that the >>>>>>>picture is taken, then we have possibly an idea that Pettigrew was coming in >>>>>>>between Lily and James. What exactly was going on, I don't know, but I speculate >>>>>>>that Pettigrew was saying that Remus was the spy, James and Sirius believed >>>>>>>him and Lily wasn't convinced. Amey here: I had never given thought to that photo much. I think we can read much in there. This might prove to be very important point. I think I will think more on this. But PP can't say that Remus was a spy, else he would have asked to prove it somehow. And what happened which made James and Sirius believe him? In pensieve scene and everywhere else, we hear James and Sirius, Remus added as an afterthought and wormtail added if the talker is a close friend of Marauders. So was Remus as close friend of James and Sirius as we believe. (I am not talking about peter here). >>>>>>>Jen, loyal member of the Sirius Protection League >>>>>>>Jen: OK Kneasy, I have proof that Sirius is meant to be a good >>>>>>>character. Sure, you've heard it before, but it's basically >>>>>>>irrefutable fact: JKR made his animagus form a dog. It's that >>>>>>>simple! A dog, a pack animal, an animal who believes there's no >>>>>>>shame in establishing a pecking order and that some dogs get to be >>>>>>>alphas and some dogs don't. He's fiercely loyal to his pack, >>>>>>>unafraid of crossing other animals who wander into his territory, >>>>>>>and follows instinct rather than reason. There, Sirius in a nutshell. I agree with Jen, just one more point, according to JKR, you don't choose your animagus form, it is decided by your characteristics. So, this is one more point for Sirius supporters. *laughs and cheers* >>>>>>Amey wrote: >>>>>>> The gift of Firebolt is his way of showing his affection (and not >>>>>>apology for attacking Ron as some suggested) >>>>>>Smart, who is still defending Sirius, thinks he is most like >>>>>>Seamus (try and dispute that one) : >>>>>>Who says Sirius ever attacked Ron? True, he entered with force >>>>>>(but to a painting, not that hard for Filch to 'expertly' re-finish), and >>>>>>was standing over Ron with a knife, but did he ever hurt Ron? >>>>>>Let me think..... uh..... Nope, never touched him, he in fact ran >>>>>>when he was discovered. Remember, he was looking for >>>>>>Scabbers here, and NOT Ron. Had Seamus owned Scabbers, >>>>>>(and Sirius found out about it elsewhere) he would have been >>>>>>standing over Seamus's bed, looking for Scabbers. Amey again: I was defending Sirius, because I had seen this line in some post (forgot the exact number, sorry). Even Kneasy has just responded saying that he broke Ron's leg and dragged him to Shack. So I added this point to refute this theory. As for disputing Sirius being most like Seamus, I will write in a different mail (just for note: I think he is much similar to Harry himself). >>>>>>July 4th Kneasy offers an indication of what would be a refutation that >>>>>>would cause him to concede defeat and withdraw gracefully: >>>>>>("So, if someone says something which has canon support elsewhere >>>>>>in the books, we can believe it - probably.") >>>>>>Still no canon response. Is everybody asleep? Amey: Hey, I had sent the mail, I will post the part again: >>>>>>She is talking about Sirius, who is not at all dead, and given his (believed) history upto that point, she can't like him at all. SO whatever she says about Sirius must be right. Also Lupin confirms that... I dont remember exact words, but what he says boils down to fact that James and Sirius were very brilliant and so they could easily become animagi, and Peter needed their help. Also, to create The Map, they had to be more than above-avarage intelligence, its one cool bit of magic. >>>>>>> But I think it got lost in the long mail (which I normally write) and nobody noticed it. One more point to support this argument, DD says that their being "animagi is a great achievement, especially hiding it from him". Signing off, as the mail is getting longer and longer, Amey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Mon Jul 5 13:41:36 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 09:41:36 -0400 Subject: Snape Question Message-ID: <001801c46295$cca374d0$9162d1d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 104407 Me: "In GoF, Chap 30, "The Pensieve" DD says "Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater. However, he rejoined (emphasis mine) our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk. He is now no more a Death Eater than I am." Does this mean that Snape was a member of the Order, left (for some reason) to be a Death Eater, then returned (for some reason) to the Order and turned spy? He is an accomplished Occlumens, could he have possibly become a Death Eater only to be a spy for the Order?" Sorry, didn't think this one through until I got in the shower. Of course he was a member of the Order...left to be a DE, then returned to the Order. The "rejoined our side" is the second chance FakeMoody was on about in "The Egg and the Eye" chapter of GoF: 'Course Dumbledore trusts you [to Snape],' growled Moody, 'He's a trusting man, isn't he? Believes in second chances (emphasis mine).' What we don't know yet, from the books at any rate, is why he joined the Order in the first place (seems like an odd thing for Snape to do, to me), left the Order in the second place, and why he left the DE's in the third place. Cathy - who won't bother you again today...I'm going to read. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dzeytoun at cox.net Mon Jul 5 14:17:30 2004 From: dzeytoun at cox.net (dzeytoun) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 14:17:30 -0000 Subject: Does the prophecy suggest that both have to die (was: Harry will die) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104408 "Either must die at > the hand of the other, for neither can live whilst the other is > alive". To my reading, this means EITHER Harry will die at the hand > of Voldemort (or would that really be at the hand of PP, whose hand > Voldemort has? Is LV's wand hand his left or his right? But I > digress.) OR LV will die at the hand of Harry. The use of "either" > means that the two are mututally exclusive. > > > claire_elise I agree with this reading. The use of "either" clearly indicates that the deaths are SINGULAR and EXCLUSIVE OF EACH OTHER. In other words, the prophecy, on literal reading, says that Voldemort will die or Harry will die, NOT that both will die. If JKR had said "Each must kill the other" THAT would imply both will die. Dzeytoun From marnyhelfrich at comcast.net Mon Jul 5 14:20:13 2004 From: marnyhelfrich at comcast.net (Marny Helfrich) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 10:20:13 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Some Serious points in favour of Sirius References: Message-ID: <02f201c4629b$3070faa0$8e2f8c45@mynewputer> No: HPFGUIDX 104409 > Andromeda here: > Well, Sirius did drag Ron into the Shrieking Shack and break his > leg, right? I suspect that is the act for which he might want to > apologize. Although I think he did apologize. But I, too, think he > just wanted to give Harry a nice present after being out of touch so > many years and to say "thanks for saving my soul from being sucked > out of my body". He did give Ron the owl (Pig) as a consolation prize. > But in the book he gives Harry the firebolt long before he attacks them at the Shrieking Shack and long before Harry saves him from the dementors, right? He sends it to him for Christmas, after the attack on the Fat Lady (which was on Halloween), but before the "attack" on Ron/Scabbers in the dorm (using the stolen passwords), which was after the match in which Harry takes down Malfoy et al with his Patronus. I do think that the fact that Sirius was able to buy it "with money from my Gringott's vault" without attracting attention (since he was on the lam at the time) is one of the bits of "magical hand-waving" in the book that doesn't bear up if you think about it too much. Marny From pandrea100 at hotmail.com Mon Jul 5 15:26:52 2004 From: pandrea100 at hotmail.com (pandrea100) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 15:26:52 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry Will Not Die.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104410 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ohneill_2001" wrote: > I think Ginny and Luna are both more likely than > Cho as Harry's future spouse (although the idea of Harry/Luna doesn't > quite work for me, and I'm not even sure why...) Because she fancies Ron? I mean, she clearly does. Not that anything will necessarily happen. But it might give Hermione a jolt. > We'll see what > happens with Cho; she may still have a role to play in the story, but > right now I don't think her romantic future with Harry looks all that > bright. Me neither. It's over. From silmariel at telefonica.net Mon Jul 5 15:32:15 2004 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (a_silmariel) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 15:32:15 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104411 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > Carolina's post [104382] has also gotten me into the mood to > actually come back & defend Sirius a bit! She wrote: > > > Sorry to dissapoint you and Jen but I can't consider Sirius being a > > dog a good proof here, just by the kind of dog he is. He's a big > > black dog, and that for me has always been the image of a hell > > dog. Of course, only talking of symbolism here. > > > SSSusan: > I recognize your absolute right to respond to the symbolism any way > you like, but I do wonder whether lots of owners of black labs > wouldn't have a *very* different reaction to Sirius-as-big-black-dog > than this. I know I didn't think of him at ALL as a hell dog. That's exactly why I included the line " Of course, only talking of symbolism here " so that owners of those kind of dogs didn't get offended. The same argument can be applied to snake owners if it was the case, because they like their serpents, so how's that Slytherin is the bad house? But speaking on symbolic terms (not real life loving dogs), a big black dog is a hell's dog. Carolina From drcarole71 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 5 14:57:58 2004 From: drcarole71 at yahoo.com (drcarole71) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 14:57:58 -0000 Subject: prophecy wording Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104412 If the prophecy has been worded carefully, there might be a loophole in it somewhere. "either must die at the HAND of the other" could this mean anything other than one actually killing the other? Could it mean one touches the other, and they die? I don't think Harry has ever touched Voldemort with his hand. What would happen if he did? "neither can live while the other survives" Aren't they both alive now? Also, Harry and Voldemort were both alive before Godric's Hollow. The term "survive" must refer to life after a certain event or starting time. Carole From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Mon Jul 5 15:18:09 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 15:18:09 -0000 Subject: Fear and Valour (Long) In-Reply-To: <002501c462a1$aec8abe0$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104413 Pandrea wrote: > > Valky wrote a long theory suggesting Voldemort's power is based on > > the general fear of saying his name: Sherry wrote: > > I've been thinking along these lines as well. I've never yet heard a death > eater call Voldemort by his name. In fact, though I have nothing but gut > instinct, this is one of the reasons I don't believe in ESE Lupin or Black. > > > Question though, did fake Moody say the name? My books are in Braille, Hello! Having just browsed through GoF, Ch 35. 'Moody' DOES say Voldy's name but generally uses the term Dark Lord. He may feel justified to use his name because in his heart he believes that he is worthy of LV as he never turned his back on his master. It's a good theory, and has potential IMHO. Aggie, hoping that her elf awakens from their slumber and puts my messages on the board!!! Please, Thankyou!!! ;o) From elizabethleclerc at hotmail.com Mon Jul 5 14:51:12 2004 From: elizabethleclerc at hotmail.com (mrslestrange) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 14:51:12 -0000 Subject: My Heart of It All Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104414 Bella wrote: > This emphasizes the end of the seventh book, and the extreme > importance of the scar finally vanishing. Remember, for instance, from > CoS, that mandrake also restores people who have been cursed? I mean, > come on. A kid's got to wait 5 years for Hermione's words to sink in? vmonte responded: > I believe that the mandrake restores those that have been petrified > and those that have been transformed (not cursed). I remember this > because it really sounds like a JKR clue. This fact about the > mandrake's ability will probably resurface. Yes, I should have inserted the quote! Here it is, from chapter 6 of COS, on page 92 of my paperback American edition: "Mandrake, or Mandragora, is a powerful restorative," said Hermione, sounding as usual as though she had swallowed the textbook. "It is used to return people who have been transfigured or cursed to their original state." "Excellent. Ten points to Gryffindor," said Professor Sprout. "The mandrake forms an essential part of most antid From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Mon Jul 5 14:09:47 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 14:09:47 -0000 Subject: Snape Question In-Reply-To: <000e01c46291$519f2260$9662d1d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104415 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cathy Drolet" wrote: > I'm sorry if this has been asked before, and if it has, perhaps someone can point me to the messages on the discussion. > > In GoF, Chap 30, "The Pensieve" DD says "Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater. However, he rejoined (emphasis mine) our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk. He is now no more a Death Eater than I am." > > My dictionary says rejoined means 'to join again.' > > Does this mean that Snape was a member of the Order, left (for some reason) to be a Death Eater, then returned (for some reason) to the Order and turned spy? He is an accomplished Occlumens, could he have possibly become a Death Eater only to be a spy for the Order? > > Just a curiosity as I came across it in reading this morning. I completely agree with where you're going with this Cathy. It occured to me a while ago, whilst musing over the theories in here, that Snape has always been on the 'good' side and is a double agent. Aggie From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Mon Jul 5 15:46:38 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 15:46:38 -0000 Subject: Does the prophecy suggest that both have to die (was: Harry will die) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104416 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dzeytoun" wrote: > > I agree with this reading. The use of "either" clearly indicates > that the deaths are SINGULAR and EXCLUSIVE OF EACH OTHER. In other > words, the prophecy, on literal reading, says that Voldemort will die > or Harry will die, NOT that both will die. > > If JKR had said "Each must kill the other" THAT would imply both will > die. > I disagree - I think it's deliberately ambiguous, so that we won't know until the end just what the outcome will be. If Rowling wanted to be clear on this point, she would have written it differently: "One must die at the hand of the other" would mean that one lives and one survives. The awkward way she's written it leaves it open to interpretation that one *or both* may die. It's NOT clear, because Rowling doesn't want it to be. Wanda From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Jul 5 16:04:19 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 16:04:19 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104417 SSSusan: > Carolina's post [104382] has also gotten me into the mood to > actually come back & defend Sirius a bit! She wrote: > > > Sorry to dissapoint you and Jen but I can't consider Sirius being a > > dog a good proof here, just by the kind of dog he is. He's a big > > black dog, and that for me has always been the image of a hell > > dog. Of course, only talking of symbolism here. > SSSusan: > I recognize your absolute right to respond to the symbolism any way > you like, but I do wonder whether lots of owners of black labs > wouldn't have a *very* different reaction to Sirius-as-big-black- dog > than this. I know I didn't think of him at ALL as a hell dog. Jen: I had another thought on this, in response to Carolina's post. Even if you don't like Sirius the character, there's a certain literary symmetry in POA that gets trampled if you don't buy that Padfoot is meant to symbolize good. We're introduced to Scabbers and The Big Black Dog and are led to believe that Scabbers is good, meek, sickly, etc. The Black Dog is the Grim, portending death with certain sinister implications. So then in the Shrieking Shack we find out the roles are actually reversed and Scabbers is the Rat, and betrayed his best friend, and Padfoot is the loyal Dog, still trying to avenge his best friend's death. I think that's a nice parallel, but it's lost of Sirius is determined to be other than he appears. Jen From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Mon Jul 5 16:21:26 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 16:21:26 -0000 Subject: Does the prophecy suggest that both have to die (was: Harry will die) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104418 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > "One must die at the hand of the other" would mean that one lives and > one survives. Sorry, of course I meant that one lives and one DIES, not survives. Getting too mixed up with the original wording there! Wanda From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Mon Jul 5 16:27:31 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 16:27:31 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104419 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > > We're introduced to Scabbers and The Big Black Dog and are led to > believe that Scabbers is good, meek, sickly, etc. The Black Dog is > the Grim, portending death with certain sinister implications. So > then in the Shrieking Shack we find out the roles are actually > reversed and Scabbers is the Rat, and betrayed his best friend, and > Padfoot is the loyal Dog, still trying to avenge his best friend's > death. > > I think that's a nice parallel, but it's lost of Sirius is > determined to be other than he appears. > I'll go along with the positive characteristics of dogs as being an underlying hint as to Sirius's true character, but I can't see it as regards Wormtail. Rats have ALWAYS had a negative connotation in Western culture - filthy, vicious, cunning, and pestilent. If we're talking archetypes here, then Wormtail's animal identity is completely in line with his true nature, just as Sirius's is. Wanda From pandrea100 at hotmail.com Mon Jul 5 15:39:35 2004 From: pandrea100 at hotmail.com (pandrea100) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 15:39:35 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Cemetery and Hogwarts: A History In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104420 Smart wrote: > Do you think that JKR might eventually write A History of Magic, or > Hogwarts, A History of sometime as she did QTA and FBaWtFY? I don't know, I doubt it. I think if I were her and I'd spent years writing these seven books about Harry's world, when I finished I'd want to move on to write something else. I'd love to read a companion book, sure, but I'd also be interested if she created a new world and set of characters. I don't think we should keep people to doing the same thing all the time. > Listen to the Sorting Hat's Song in OotP again, saying > they (the houses/its members) must join together to survive. I hope this does happen. However, I don't think it will be an individual from each house at the end, but something where the entire school has to join together. The drawback is that the only person we really 'know' from Slytherin is still Draco Malfoy and I just haven't seen anything so far to suggest he's interested in joining the fight against Voldemort. I know a lot of people believe that secretly he is, or that something will happen to make him so, but we have absolutely no evidence for that at this point. By the way, what does ESE mean? Eventually Secretly Evil? And what's this SAD Defence thingy? Pandrea From firedancerflash at comcast.net Mon Jul 5 16:31:37 2004 From: firedancerflash at comcast.net (Firedancer) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 12:31:37 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape Question References: Message-ID: <011901c462ad$8b6a99e0$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 104421 Snape is one of those folks you're always going to wonder about. My question is, where did the wimpy teen get the how-with-all to become so menacing? I don't think being a death-eater is for sissies, unless you're Wormtail. Any thoughts on that one? June None but the piper keeps up with the dancer! Siempre revelde!! June From firedancerflash at comcast.net Mon Jul 5 16:39:54 2004 From: firedancerflash at comcast.net (Firedancer) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 12:39:54 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Return from the Underworld in Greek Mythology (Re: Sirius Black Poll) References: Message-ID: <015c01c462ae$b36d8ff0$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 104422 We've got an interesting situation here. First, I don't think Belatrix managed to kill Sirius in book five. To be honest with you, I think he tripped or something and ended up falling behind the veil. Now, when Harry is talking to Nick, Nick definitely says that Sirius chose, and I underline chose here, to go on. That seems to indicate that the man definitely died. Now, I do hope there is a way for Sirius to come back in some fashion, but how's he going to swing it? And to think all this could have been avoided if Harry had had the sense to remember and use that little mirror! June None but the piper keeps up with the dancer! Siempre revelde!! June From editor at texas.net Mon Jul 5 16:40:37 2004 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 11:40:37 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape Question References: <011901c462ad$8b6a99e0$e60b8f45@Voov> Message-ID: <002e01c462ae$cfe465a0$7c59aacf@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 104423 June: > Snape is one of those folks you're always going to wonder about. My > question is, where did the wimpy teen get the how-with-all to become so > menacing? I don't think being a death-eater is for sissies, unless you're > Wormtail. Any thoughts on that one? I don't think he's particularly wimpy. Skinny, greasy hair--but not wimpy. He managed to give James a pretty good cut, and he was totally ready to fight both of them. I sort of equate wimps with Wormtail's behavior--cringing, whining, trying to get away--and Snape, even as a teenager, even hanging upside down, was doing none of that. He wanted to kick some ass. ~Amanda From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Mon Jul 5 16:53:54 2004 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 16:53:54 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius revisited/character discussions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104424 "snow15145" asked: >I am just curious if you liked the fake Moody before you found out >who he actually was? And be honest! If your answer is yes, I would >have to suggest that you watch out more for the likeable character >than the unlikable one...cough, cough Sirius or Snape. Yes, I definitely did. I enjoyed the parts of the book where he was at center stage, and the Amazing Bouncing Ferret scene is still one of my all-time favorites. I completely agreed with whoever summed it up: "Moody! How cool is he?" And I don't think it's obvious until the very end, when he waltzes Harry off out from under Dumbledore's nose, that he's a bad guy. In hindsight, there are small ambiguous clues: the description of the midnight attack on the real Moody, the name on the Marauder's Map, the ingredients missing from Snape's office, and even his treatment of Malfoy (although I think that depends on the reader a) knowing JKR's opinion of corporal punishment and b) sharing it). By the way, one of the most hair-raising scenes to read for the second time is the encounter between "Moody" and Harry on the staircase where Harry is explaining about the Marauder's Map. Imagine how different things might have been had Harry glanced down at the map while he and "Moody" were standing facing each other ... Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Jul 5 17:58:24 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 17:58:24 -0000 Subject: Almond-shaped eyes & the Sphinx (Re: Pensieve scene - Lily revealed?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104425 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lavaluvn" wrote: > I apologize for most likely repeating ideas (nothing new under the > sun and all), but does anyone else think that the Pensieve scene of > James tormenting Snape was as much to reveal Lily's character as > anything? As much as we've ever been given, anyway. I think she > came out looking rather impressive. Jen: JKR did tell us we would find out something important about Lily in Book five. This scene is one possibility, where we see that she is both brave (standing up to bullies) and a powerful witch (James and Sirius 'eye her wand warily' like they know what she's capable of). We also found out her green eyes are 'almond-shaped' which could be another significant point about her and Harry's eyes, besides the color. The only canon reference we have to almond-shaped eyes is the Sphinx in GOF & this description in FBAWTFT: "The Egyptian Sphinx has a human head on a lion's body. For over a thousand years it has been used by witches and wizards to guard valuables and secret hideaways. Highly intelligent, the sphinx delights in puzzles and riddles. It is usually dangerous only when what it is guarding is threatened." So perhaps Lily is symbolically like the Sphinx, the human lioness who is highly intelligent, and dangerous only when Harry is threatened. Or this could be a more literal clue about some obscure, sphinx-like power she and Harry possess, as signified by the eyes. JKR definitely weaves in connections to Egypt, with Bill working there and the Weasleys visiting. On an astrological note, the great Sphinx at Giza is thought to have been built as the earthly counterpart to the constellation Leo, heralding the birth of the Sun (son) in Leo. Don't know if this is where JKR is going, but the imagery is interesting. From aldhelm at earthlink.net Mon Jul 5 18:09:00 2004 From: aldhelm at earthlink.net (carin_in_oh) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 18:09:00 -0000 Subject: Does the prophecy suggest that both have to die (was: Harry will die) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104426 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dzeytoun" > wrote: > > I agree with this reading. The use of "either" clearly indicates > > that the deaths are SINGULAR and EXCLUSIVE OF EACH OTHER. And Wanda replied: > > > I disagree - I think it's deliberately ambiguous, so that we won't > know until the end just what the outcome will be. Now Carin chimes in: (To quote the section we're discussing, for reference: "and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives") I agree with Wanda on this one. I recently had a look at what the OED has to say about "either", and without quoting dictionary-babble at you, I can report that it documents both either = "both", "each of two" and either = "one or the other". The former is verging on the obsolete, but was the original meaning of the word. The language of prophecy is typically tinged with the archaic anyway, which I think admits the obsolete meaning "both" here, and I think any ambiguity in the prophecy probably hinges on the interpretation of "either". When JKR says that both she and Trelawny phrased the prophecy very carefully, I take her to mean that she deliberately chose the ambiguous "either" (rather than saying "ONE must die at the hand of the other or sim.) to keep open the possibility that both will die. What seems unambiguous to me is the second half of the bit quoted above: what is absolutely precluded by the prophecy is that both would survive. One or the other or both will die, but Harry AND Voldy living happily ever after is not in the cards. Dumbledore is pretty unambiguous, too, about a death being involved when he answers Harry's question about what the prophecy means. What puzzles me, though, is how the prophecy is to be reconciled with the years we're currently reading about, in which both of them _are_, for the moment, surviving. My literary take on this is that the prophecy points to the fact that this situation (both H and LV alive) is fundamentally unstable and untenable, and we are hurtling (but not fast enough!) towards some kind of restoration of order in the Potterverse. But my literal-minded take is a little frustrated by the (existence of the) prophecy. Carin From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Mon Jul 5 18:19:13 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 18:19:13 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104427 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_silmariel" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" > wrote: > > > > Carolina's post [104382] has also gotten me into the mood to > > actually come back & defend Sirius a bit! She wrote: > > > > > Sorry to dissapoint you and Jen but I can't consider Sirius being a > > > dog a good proof here, just by the kind of dog he is. He's a big > > > black dog, and that for me has always been the image of a hell > > > dog. Of course, only talking of symbolism here. > > > > > > SSSusan: > > I recognize your absolute right to respond to the symbolism any way > > you like, but I do wonder whether lots of owners of black labs > > wouldn't have a *very* different reaction to Sirius-as-big-black- dog > > than this. I know I didn't think of him at ALL as a hell dog. Carolina: > That's exactly why I included the line " Of course, only talking of > symbolism here " so that owners of those kind of dogs didn't get offended. (..) > > But speaking on symbolic terms (not real life loving dogs), a big > black dog is a hell's dog. > > Carolina Carolyn again (not Carolina): You both slightly mistook my input into this debate. First, I wasn't necessarily suggesting that Sirius-as-dog was a friendlier package than than Sirius-the-man. I definitely wasn't thinking black labs, for instance, but not hell dogs either. The term 'black dog' is often used in the UK to mean fits of depression, gloom & despair. I think JKR was layering this meaning into her characterisation of Sirius's alter-ego, as well as other doggy attributes. Second, on the evolution of his character into the one we see in OOP, I think the (black) dog form that his animagus form took was a pretty accurate foretaste of what he was to become. Ie, a hopeless mixture of blind doggy loyalty, gloom and aggression. He was only a bit lighter at the end of POA, and through GOF because he was *free*, chasing sticks, doing dog-stuff. Once he was trapped in that house, then there was a certain inevitability about what was going to happen. But third, there is the interesting question of how the dog and the man's personas interact. Kneasy is largely right (as always) in his analysis of Sirius's mistakes as a man, and there could well be a lot more to come about whether Sirius acted of his own volition or was framed, both at Godric's Hollow and in the escape from Azkaban. My question is whether or not becoming an animagi creates some sort of split personality, containing elements of the animal and the human that become increasingly difficult to disentangle. Maybe the WW knows this, and this is why animagi are so carefully controlled - after all, they are well on the way to becoming part-humans, and we know how those are regarded. Philip Pullman played brilliantly with the idea of our separate animal souls with his daemons, but JKR's concept goes a bit further, if this is what she intended. My thought is she is allowing full play to the animal aspects of human natures, and allowing us to compare and contrast them with the intellectual, the rationale human being. Many people saw gay images in the fight between Sirius-the-dog and Lupin-the-werewolf in the film, and I think that was intentional, but perhaps not necessarily implying Cuaron thought there was a gay relationship between the human form of the characters. Instead, the Marauder's could have found a way of exploring some very complex stuff, especially at a time of teeming male hormones. I think all of this goes some way to explain why there is such a confusing reaction to Sirius amongst fans - particularly women - he's both a hunk, and an irritating twit that never properly grew up. Any woman with a brain knows to just say no, but it's not so easy to control the emotional reaction. Nothing like watching an idiot dog run wild jumping in the surf, rolling in mud to cheer you up, or alternatively, nothing more upsetting than a miserable animal that you can't help. And I would take this further (and will probably upset the serried ranks of parents and teachers on this list in the process), in saying that all these endless strictures about Harry having to learn to act more rationally, think of others, grow up etc is foolishly short- sighted. His joyous reaction to Sirius was a quite instinctive, and totally natural strike for freedom, but its been smashed for JKR's mysterious plot reasons..I can't help thinking she is setting us up for further disasters as a result. I wouldn't be so quick to read him lectures on doing what he's told. And I still want to understand what James' stag is all about.. Carolyn From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Jul 5 18:25:53 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 18:25:53 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104428 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > > Jen: OK Kneasy, I have proof that Sirius is meant to be a good > character. Sure, you've heard it before, but it's basically > irrefutable fact: JKR made his animagus form a dog. It's that > simple! A dog, a pack animal, an animal who believes there's no > shame in establishing a pecking order and that some dogs get to be > alphas and some dogs don't. He's fiercely loyal to his pack, > unafraid of crossing other animals who wander into his territory, > and follows instinct rather than reason. There, Sirius in a nutshell. > It might be an indication, but doesn't reach a level I'd accept as proof. Consider: Dog eat dog To die like a dog To go to the dogs In the doghouse A dirty dog Dog in a manger Black dog All of them negative in their connotations. Interestingly, Black Dog, besides being fairly common usage for melencholia or ill-omen, is also old slang for counterfeit. Sirius as a member of a pack would be worrying - who is the pack leader? 'Cos Sirius would be constantly challenging, and with him in charge, what need for Voldy? Kneasy From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Mon Jul 5 18:31:36 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 18:31:36 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104429 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > Consider: > > Dog eat dog > To die like a dog > To go to the dogs > In the doghouse > A dirty dog > Dog in a manger > Black dog > > All of them negative in their connotations. > Interestingly, Black Dog, besides being fairly common usage for > melencholia or ill-omen, is also old slang for counterfeit. > > Sirius as a member of a pack would be worrying - who is the > pack leader? 'Cos Sirius would be constantly challenging, and > with him in charge, what need for Voldy? > > Kneasy Carolyn: The leader of the pack ? James.. he's at the centre of this somehow. Its his presence we don't understand at GH, who he is, or where the money came from..why he switched secret keepers, why he gave his cloak to DD. From firedancerflash at comcast.net Mon Jul 5 17:47:56 2004 From: firedancerflash at comcast.net (Firedancer) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 13:47:56 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape Question References: <011901c462ad$8b6a99e0$e60b8f45@Voov> <002e01c462ae$cfe465a0$7c59aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: <000601c462b8$344c32d0$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 104430 Amanda, I thank you for bring up the points about Snape's behavior in contrast, say, to Peter's. I know we're not allowed to just do a bravo-bravo-good-one post, but you see, I sneaked it in anyway. June None but the piper keeps up with the dancer! Siempre revelde!! June From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Mon Jul 5 18:52:09 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 18:52:09 -0000 Subject: Movie PoA Foreshadows Books 6 & 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104431 "mayeaux45" wrote: > > Clue 1) Draco Malfoy will be killed. Anasazi asked: > What in the PoA movie made you think that? Cause I kind of thought > that Draco was going to survive the final battle because he came > of as a coward who would do anything to save his own neck (a > hotter Peter Pettigrew) > SSSusan: Risking the wrath of the list elves [sorry!], I'll wager my guess that it's something Hermione did to get Buckbeak to MOVE when he was stubbornly staying put. "Here, Beaky!" she said. "Have a nice DEAD FERRET." Remember when Crouch!Moody turned Draco into a ferret? :-) Siriusly Snapey Susan From sherriola at earthlink.net Mon Jul 5 15:31:44 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 09:31:44 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002901c462a5$39b3ff40$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 104432 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > > Even in Potterverse, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. If JKR tells > me Pettigrew turns into a rat when he transforms, then we find out > he ratted out his friends, well that's enough information for me to > decide what Sirius' character is (and wonder why they never > suspected Pettigrew was the spy?). He can be ferocious, and might go > bad if provoked enough, but Sirius' true form is innately loyal and > eager to please. > > Jen, loyal member of the Sirius Protection League Carolyn: Your point about Sirius-the-dog is well made, and I have often thought it myself. His essential nature seems to be all about pack loyalty to a leader, ferocious savagery if attacked, bounding about after sticks when he's happy. Not super-bright, but man's best friend and all that. I can see even the Shrieking Shack incident in this light - an opportunity to attack an enemy of his pack leader, James, coupled with a brattish teenage indifference to the consequences, and WW robustness about dangerous pastimes. And I'm sure he never really regretted his actions that night, or understood what all the fuss was about. Sherry now I'm so surprised I never thought about this before! I am particularly fond of dogs--and cats--but I am also very fond of Sirius. Yet, I never thought of the significance of his animagus form. I should have. I trust my life to a dog every single day. I have used guide dogs for almost 30 years now. Dogs are incredibly loyal to their pack leader, will die to protect the pack are very bright. Their intelligence is different than ours, but for instance, my guides have been trained not only how to obey my commands and guide me safely, but how to disobey a command, if it is not safe to do so. If I tell my dog forward to cross a street, and a car pulls in front of us, she will refuse to go. This is very complex thinking process for a dog. My dog can be rash and reckless, too. I live with friends who have kids, an even though she gets in trouble when she eats crayons, or picks up food from the floor, she still does it from time to time, because she's a dog and that's what they do. We are also taught by our guide dog trainers, that how our dogs behave when working is totally different than how they may behave without the harness. We must be very careful never to let them off leash in an unfenced area. A guide who will keep their handler from being hit by a car while guiding, might get excited off leash and run right into the street after a ball or something, even though a car is coming! (Sounds kind of like the rash behavior Sirius shows at times.) However, when her working harness goes on, she's attentive and focused, doing what's expected of her and ensuring that both of us are safe as we travel. It's my job as pack leader to make sure she is healthy and well cared for, to give her clear and concise directions, so that she can obey and do her job properly, then it is her job to make sure that our little pack of two is safe enough to obey the directions I give. Anyway, dogs are extremely faithful and loyal. They will die to protect their pack. Now that it's been pointed out to me, it seems so clear that this is much of Sirius' character. Even his behavior in OOTP can be related to the fact of being cooped up so much. It would drive any dog crazy. They need to get exercise and will act up dreadfully if they don't! I ought to know. Sherry G From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Jul 5 19:01:49 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 19:01:49 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104433 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: > > Carolyn: > The leader of the pack ? James.. he's at the centre of this somehow. > Its his presence we don't understand at GH, who he is, or where the > money came from..why he switched secret keepers, why he gave his > cloak to DD. Hum. James - yes, he probably was, but I can't see Sirius doing a Greyfriars Bobby or a replay of Ulysses faithful hound. The money - didn't JKR say that he'd inherited it? Or has my memory gone wonky again? Sirius suggested (or said he did) that Peter become SK, though why James and Lily went along with it is a mystery. But GH and the cloak, especially the cloak. Why give it to DD? It seems to be an eminently useful piece of kit to have around if you think that you're going to be attacked. Presumably it was handed over before they went into hiding - why? Kneasy From meltowne at yahoo.com Mon Jul 5 19:06:12 2004 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 19:06:12 -0000 Subject: Some Serious points in favour of Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104434 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "smartone564" > wrote: > > Amey wrote: > > > > > The gift of Firebolt is his way of showing his affection (and not > > apology for attacking Ron as some suggested) > > > > Who says Sirius ever attacked Ron? True, he entered with force > > (but to a painting, not that hard for Filch to 'expertly' re- finish), and > > was standing over Ron with a knife, but did he ever hurt Ron? > > Let me think..... uh..... Nope, never touched him > > Apart from attacking Ron and breaking his leg as he dragged > him into the tunnel under the Whomping Willow, you mean? > > Kneasy The Firebolt was to apologize for being in the stands and drawing the attention of the dementors, which was why Harry's other broomstick ended up in the Whomping Willow - It couldn't have been to apologize for attacking Ron becase that happened later (in the book anyway). From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Jul 5 19:14:00 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 19:14:00 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104435 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" > wrote: > > > Consider: > > > > Dog eat dog > > To die like a dog > > To go to the dogs > > In the doghouse > > A dirty dog > > Dog in a manger > > Black dog Jen: A few more, for my side: Dog-eared (much-loved) Every dog has his day Man's best friend Loyal like a dog Dogged And Sirius in OOTP, 'dog days' referring to stagnation or inactivity. Kneasy: > > Sirius as a member of a pack would be worrying - who is the > > pack leader? 'Cos Sirius would be constantly challenging, and > > with him in charge, what need for Voldy? Carolyn responded: > The leader of the pack ? James.. he's at the centre of this somehow. > Its his presence we don't understand at GH, who he is, or where the > money came from..why he switched secret keepers, why he gave his > cloak to DD. Jen again: Yes, exactly! Carolyn mentioned before what the stag could symbolize. My first thought was in Arthurian legend the appearance of the white stag symbolizes the impetus of a quest, sending knights forth to battle--This reminds me of James as the leader of the pack. Also, the timing of them learning to be animagus is right before the First War. Also in Arthurian legend, the white stag is sometimes associated with the Lady of the Lake, who gives the sword Excalibur to Arthur. So maybe the Invisibility Cloak wasn't the only thing James Potter had in his possession before dying? Jen Reese From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 5 19:15:14 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 19:15:14 -0000 Subject: Almond-shaped eyes & the Sphinx (Re: Pensieve scene - Lily revealed?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104436 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: snip. > We also found out her green eyes are 'almond-shaped' which could be > another significant point about her and Harry's eyes, besides the > color. The only canon reference we have to almond-shaped eyes is the > Sphinx in GOF & this description in FBAWTFT: > > "The Egyptian Sphinx has a human head on a lion's body. For over a > thousand years it has been used by witches and wizards to guard > valuables and secret hideaways. Highly intelligent, the sphinx > delights in puzzles and riddles. It is usually dangerous only when > what it is guarding is threatened." > > So perhaps Lily is symbolically like the Sphinx, the human lioness > who is highly intelligent, and dangerous only when Harry is > threatened. Or this could be a more literal clue about some obscure, > sphinx-like power she and Harry possess, as signified by the eyes. > >snip. Alla: Jen, I love it. Connection between Lily and Sphinx, hmmm. Here is GoF quote: "It was a sphinx. It had the body of over-large lion: great clawed paws and a long yellowish tail ending in a brown tuft. its head, however, was that of a woman. She turned her long, almond-shaped eyes upon Hary as he approached. he raised his wand, hesitating. She was not crouching as if to spring, but pacing from side to side of the path, blocking its progress. Then she spoke , in a deep, hoarse voice. "You are very near your goal. The quickest way id past me."" GoF, american edition, pp.628-629. I love the metaphorical idea of Lily being just as intelligent as sphinx and just as dangerous, when her child is threatened. But what if in the next books Harry will have to solve some of Lily's mysteries...literally. What if as it was discussed here Harry will indeed trtavel into underworld and to get closer to his goal (I hope it will be to find Sirius, but it could be anything of course - the ultimate defeat of Voldie sounds good too) he will have to figure some of the pussles which his mother gives him just as Sphinx did? From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Mon Jul 5 19:16:16 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 19:16:16 -0000 Subject: Harry uses Hermione's wand to kill Volemort? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104437 anasazi wrote: > I'm a H/Hr, and I can unbiasedly tell you that there are hints in > the movie to keep both shippers happy. And about the H/Hr clues > you were speaking about, I think you should add one that may be > the most important one (not necesarily in the shippy sense, but as > a foreshadow of what may happen in Book Six/Seven)... and is the > powerful spell that Harry achieves when he uses Hermione's wand. SSSusan: You're speaking of how Harry grabs Hermione's wand in the Shrieking Shack and hits Snape w/ an Expelliarmus which knocks him out? I thought that was weird, given that in the book it's the fact that THREE people [I think?] simultaneously hit him with Expelliarmus which caused him to be thrown back and knocked unconscious. I thought that was an unusual change to have made. anasazi: > Since we have been purposely kept in the dark by JKR as to the > core of Hermione's wand (seeing as Hermione is one of her favorite > characters, I don't think JKR will neglect a little detail like > that unless it will prove to be a very important detail for the > remaining books. > > So, let's do a bit of hypothesizing... since Harry can't kill > Voldemort with his own wand (the twin effect), what if he uses > Hermione's wand to do it? What if Hermione's wand is made of a > core more powerful than the phoenix or the unicorn? Or if she > infuses it with a spell not unlike Lily's original protection? > SSSusan: Interesting idea. For now I'm sticking with the canon version of what knocked Snape back, but if you're right that this was one of the Cuaron changes which gave JKR chills, then, well, who knows??? :- ) Siriusly Snapey Susan From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 5 19:23:44 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 19:23:44 -0000 Subject: Some Serious points in favour of Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104438 Smartone earlier: snip. > > Who says Sirius ever attacked Ron? True, he entered with force > > (but to a painting, not that hard for Filch to 'expertly' re- finish), and > > was standing over Ron with a knife, but did he ever hurt Ron? > > Let me think..... uh..... Nope, never touched him Kneasy: > Apart from attacking Ron and breaking his leg as he dragged > him into the tunnel under the Whomping Willow, you mean? Alla: He was wrong here, no doubt about that, but here is my dreaded response again about just being out of Azkaban, driven by revenge, pain,etc.. :) Besides, he regrets that and he tries to make it up to Ron at the end of PoA: "I thought your friend Ron might like to keep this owl, as it's my fault he no longer has a rat", PoA, p.434, americal edition From meltowne at yahoo.com Mon Jul 5 19:38:11 2004 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 19:38:11 -0000 Subject: Harry & dementors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104439 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mhbobbin" wrote: > Dementors: Targeting Harry specifically as early as PoA? Certainly in > the books, it's an open question whether or not the Dementors want to > get Harry too. In the film, they seem to really want to get him. It's > not till Book 5 that we see the Dementors again, sent on purpose. Is > it possible that the Dementors were playing a double role earlier? On > their own or under instruction? > > Any other ideas on foreshadowing that might have inadvertently been > revealed in film that JKR is referring to? We know the dementors can't see - that's how Sirius was able to escape, and also Barty Crouch Jr. Bary was in a similar emotional state as his mother, and they couldn't tell the difference - he mentions that his mother took the polyjuice potion to keep other prisoners from knowing it was her. The dementors were at Hogwarts because they were "looking for" Sirius. But how would they recognize him? Were they really there to look for him, or to be on hand in case Fudge needed them to suck Sirius' soul? If they could recognize him, was there something about Harry that reminded them of Sirius - enough to confuse them into thinking Harry was him? I suspect the scene that JKR wanted kept in PoA might have been Fudge personally telling Harry Aunt Marge was dealt with, and instructing him to stay put at the leaky Cualdron. He could have been told about Aunt Marge any number of ways. I think Fudge's direct involvement is important. From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Mon Jul 5 19:40:08 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 19:40:08 -0000 Subject: James as Prongs (Re: Sirius revisited) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104440 "a_reader2003" wrote: > And I still want to understand what James' stag is all about.. You know, if you're looking for animagus insight into the personality or mannerisms, I've always thought it was a tie in to James' arroggance. When James is running a hand through his hair to muss it up in OotP, I was reminded of a stag tossing his head about (with a great rack of horns) in a display of might. Whan Snape is describing James as strutting, I see how a stag would strut or prance. And of course all these masculine displays of virility are more pronounced when a stag is in mating season and looking to impress potential mates--just like James' antics were pronounced when Lily was present. Arya (who now wonders if James really liked corn...) From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Mon Jul 5 19:40:44 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 19:40:44 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited--emotional maturity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104441 SSSusan: > > > Isn't this similar to Harry's young life? > > > [snip] > > > And yet, when it comes to emotional maturity, it seems Harry > > > is ahead of Sirius. He's NOT an arrogant git, attacking > > > schoolmates just because he can/they exist. He's NOT setting > > > people up like Sirius did Snape with the prank. I guess I'd > > > ask, why isn't Sirius as mature as Harry?? Katie: > > I suppose my answer- and it's going to sound weak, but it's > > something I believe- is that people can (and often do) have > > exactly the same experiences without behaving in the same way. I > SSSusan: That's NOT a weak answer at all! It's quite fair, and the reason I thought twice about not asking this at all. :-) Katie: > > Yet Harry seems entirely unaffected by this experience, except > > possibly that he seems far more compassionate toward others than > > most boys his age. Harry seems like an exceptional case to me. To > > quote a button I've seen, "not all abused orphans grow up to be > > wizards." > > I don't mind comparing Harry to Sirius, and I think you bring up > > some excellent, truthful points. I'm just of the opinion that > > Harry behaves far more nobly than could be expected or demanded of > > any kid with his upbringing. SSSusan: Again, fair enough. I think I was trying to bring up a comparison, just to show that Sirius really *didn't* handle things as well as Harry has.... I've never been aligned with those who dislike Harry or think he's a brat; in fact, I think "nobly" is an apt descriptor for him. (Yes, rash & reckless at times, too, but for a noble REASON, typically. Oh--well, let's leave his relationship with Snape out of it for now, though. :-)) Katie: > > (By the way, speaking of "attacking schoolmates just because they > > exist", why on earth does James behave the way he does? He seems > > honestly quite sadistic in the Pensieve scene to me, yet he > > doesn't get .1% of the criticism that Sirius does.) SSSusan: An excellent question. I wonder why that is?? Is it simply because we see James trying to STOP the prank? Is it because we know he ended up with Lily, and so we assume he had a change of heart? SSSusan, before: > > > Do you think these things could be enough to "explain away" > > > Sirius? Again, I keep thinking of Harry. We see him become > > > quite surly and angry, even resentful in OoP--something which > > > seemed quite natural & understandable to me--and yet he somehow > > > doesn't seem as immature or selfish as Sirius on occasion. Katie: > > I don't know that I want to "explain away" Sirius. Certainly he > > seems to be a flawed and damaged human being. But (as I said > > rather snippily in another post) I don't know what better reasons > > there can be. There's nothing in cold, hard facts to fully explain > > his behavior, but then again, there's nothing that can fully > > explain *anyone's* behavior. If he is depressed (and I think he > > is), that would affect his behavior substantially. I'm sure we've > > all done regrettable things, and Sirius has definitely done more > > than most, but I'm not willing to consign him to the "bad person" > > pile just yet :) SSSusan: And on this we agree. As I said in another post, I've come to be more critical of Sirius than I used to be, but I'm NOT willing to label him "bad." He's too complex a mix to be all "good" or all "bad." Siriusly Snapey Susan From squeakinby at tds.net Mon Jul 5 19:59:00 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 15:59:00 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40E9B304.40008@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 104442 Jen Reese wrote: >>--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" >> wrote: >> >> >>>Consider: >>> >>>Dog eat dog >>>To die like a dog >>>To go to the dogs >>>In the doghouse >>>A dirty dog >>>Dog in a manger >>>Black dog > > > Jen: A few more, for my side: > > Dog-eared (much-loved) > Every dog has his day > Man's best friend > Loyal like a dog > Dogged Lie down with dogs, get up with fleas. Jem From kreneeb at hotmail.com Mon Jul 5 20:10:05 2004 From: kreneeb at hotmail.com (hermionekitten9) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 20:10:05 -0000 Subject: Harry uses Hermione's wand to kill Volemort? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104443 Anasazi said ...I think you should add one that may be the most important one (not necesarily in the shippy sense, but as a foreshadow of what may happen in Book Six/Seven)... and is the powerful spell that Harry achieves when he uses Hermione's wand. kitten says Sorry, excuse my ignorance... but I don't recall a time when Harry ever uses Hermione's wand, more or less a time when he achieves a "powerful spell" from using her wand... in the books or in the third movie, could you elaborate? In the movie a scene popped into my mind when I read your theory, is the scene in the movie where SuperGirl!Hermione whips out *her* wand and blast's open Sirius's jail door... I personally don't see this as foreshadowing for anything...in case you haven't noticed... I really didn't like the way the Hermione or well, the trio, were portrayed in the movie, Ron, and to less extent Harry, where portrayed as total idiots, and Hermione was portrayed as the most incredible SuperGirl there is, that made you wonder how Harry and Ron could even tie their own shoes without Hermione's help... the feeling I got when I watched the movie was that it would have so much easier if Hermione just sat Harry down told him not to hurt himself... while she goes off and saves buckbeak and Sirius... it was just annoying. Anyway back to the point... I chalk up Hermione's "opening Sirius jail door" to that she is portrayed as supergirl. Its no secrete that Hermione's character is Steve Kloves (the writer) favorite... it has been an annoying trend in his Harry Potter scripts... always giving Hermione "the good lines" from the book, having her do the "cool" things. For example during the second movie when we are told about mudbloods in the book its Ron that explains everything... in the movie its Hermione, in the third book its Ron is the one that says that Sirius will have to kill them before he can kill Harry... in the movie its Hermione... Hermione's the one that fixes Harry's glasses, in the book its anyone but Hermione, and the list goes on and on and on. I wouldn't mind but because of it, both Harry and Ron are turned into these extremely two dimensional characters that makes you wonder why they're even there in the first place...I love Hermione, Ron, and Harry, and it just bothers me so much (in case you can't tell) that Hermione is favored above both Harry and Ron in the movies, JKR loves all three to, they are much stronger together then apart-g- so you don't get that in the books. Anyway I chalk up the blowing the jail door to that, then anything else. Anasazi said Since we have been purposely kept in the dark by JKR as to the core of Hermione's wand (seeing as Hermione is one of her favorite characters, I don't think JKR will neglect a little detail like that unless it will prove to be a very important detail for the remaining books. kitten says Do you really think it was done on "purpose?" I didn't even know we didn't know the core of Hermione's wand until you mentioned it...I just want to say that there really hasn't been a proper time and place for in the books for Hermione to come out and say what her core of her wand is... let me explain... its kinda like having a pet turtle, you wouldn't just go up to someone shake their hand and say "Hi my name is Anasazi and I have a pet turtle" it would be weird, right? Same with Hermione, she wouldn't just go up to Harry and say "Hi I'm Hermione Granger and the core of my wand is such n'such" there needs to be somewhat of a reason for it to be said. Take Ron, if I remember correctly we didn't know what his first wand was either, it wasn't until the third book, when he had to get a new one thanks to the tree in the second book, that we find out what his new one is. There is also an argument to be said that because it hasn't been mentioned, then it must not be important at all... I personally believe that Harry will use his special "power" to defeat Voldemort and that wands (or girls) will have no or little bearing on it... its the impression I got when I read the Dumbledore's speech at the end of OOTP... kitten From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Mon Jul 5 13:54:12 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 13:54:12 -0000 Subject: McGonagall's character was Re: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104444 Kneasy wrote: > > > > The canon I've been waiting for someone to post? The backing for > > McGonagall's statement that would make me withdraw? > > It's in PoA chap 18. > > Look it up. Potioncat: > Clever! Too clever, Sir! We must all hang our heads in shame and > admit that you have twice over duped us! You have sent us to the > very site that supports your original statement! > > So I concur, McGonagall is not to be trusted. I'm sorry but I can no longer lurk, I must interject!! I do apologise if I have missed something (as I have only recently discovered this fantastic web site) but WHAT?? I have noted with my lurking that Kneasy seems to rule as intellectual king, but for him/her to send us off on a double-cross just to 'prove' his theory doesn't seem to ring true. I may be being naive here but I take that passage in PoA to be a fitting account of how it is. Becoming an animagi MUST be difficult, otherwise surely nearly every wizard would be one!! Just my POV. Hi and I hope that my first post is acceptable. While I'm here, can someone please explain who Mark Evans is??? Please forgive my ignorance!! Aggie From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Mon Jul 5 20:12:48 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 20:12:48 -0000 Subject: Kreacher the Murderer (Re: Sirius revisited--emotional maturity) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104445 EXCELLENT post, Valky! And if I may go off-track for a second, your name reminds me of Victor Krum for some reason, lol (Hermione: "Don't call him 'Vicki!' "). You good at Soccer? >>> Valky wrote: > Its not so much that it fits per se, in the context of the story, > except that the symptoms are extraordinarily familiar, but as the > way the indicators are flagged in canon. Its all in the order they > appear. > > I am assuming probably more than I should here. so I'll start from > the beginning. > > Some time ago it was supposed that Kreacher was implementing a plot > to get rid of Sirius a long time before he left Grimmauld Place to > the Malfoy residence. The canon that supports this is in congruent > elements scattered through OOtP. > > They are: > 1 Sirius becomes some alarming bit more cheerful when Kreacher > disappears at Christmas. > > 2 Although it fits nicely with the probability that Sirius is > unhappy to be losing his guests at the end of Christmas, it also > fits, curiously, that he becomes once again hotheaded and recklessly > behaved when Kreacher returns. Bren now: Let me get this straight. Are you suggesting that there's more to Sirius loathing Kreacher? Like Sirius resented him *not just* for the long history between them, but because Kreacher was doing something to him during his stay at Grim-Old Place in OoP? But if Sirius had suspected something, why didn't he do anything? BUT... what COULD he have done? He couldn't *fire* the elf, he knew too much about the Order (D-Dore's order). He could have banned Kreacher from putting the Confusing and befuddlement Draughts in his food/drink, but how could he know? He was going nuts being stuck in that place anyways. (Although DD did say Kreacher couldn't disobey DIRECT orders from Sirius, so maybe this could've worked.) How about harming Kreacher -- injuring him... or even more. (As much as I love him) wouldn't put it past someone who's already widely known to be the 'Mass Murderer' ("well, gee, I'm already a murderer, heck, why not get rid of this fealthy thing"). I wonder the Unforgivable Curses will work on House Elves though. >>> Valky continues: > 3 We are treated to, in a previous chapter, an insight into the uses > of scurvy grass, lovage and sneezewort, which I will quote for you: > > "These plantes are efficacious in the inflaming of the braine, and > are therefore much used in Confusing and befuddlement Draughts, > where the wizard is desirous of producing hot-headedness and > recklessness ...." > This is in Dumbledores Army, OOtP page 340 in my version. > > Now I cannot take credit for this exemplary sleuthing I am afraid, > but I do have plenty to offer in support of the theory. > > For example, as there was much talk in Grimmauld Place, by Molly > Lupin et al, that recklessness would get Sirius killed, it is quite > likely that when chanced upon, it would be of a temptation to > Kreacher to encourage along some recklessness, in his much loathed > master. > > Secondly and if you'll imagine with me for a moment that Kreacher is > blurting to his much beloved Bella: > > "I have been feeding the young traitor scurvy grass in hope that he > would do something foolish and get himself and all his mutant, > mudblood, half breed, etc etc.... friends, thankfully, destroyed. > But he is resisting it so ! I fear I shall be in his treacherous > keep forever... oh for shame poor Kreacher.. boo hoo etc.." > > Bella then goes to discuss with LV this and the other information we > already know she gave him and of course LV decides it will help his > new plan along if Kreacher continues to do so. > > So much against the House Elfs desire to not return to Sirius, ever, > he does... and immediately, to begin the scurvy grass, or what have > you, lacing of Sirius' food again, because Harry, who is at > Grimmauld Place right now, must firmly believe that Sirius has lost > the plot and misplaced the blueprints. > > In the post I previously replied to, Katie did make note of how > excuses for bad behaviour of characters has been made by members of > HP fandom, ranging from childhood abuse to magical control over that > characters mind. > And I say again to Katie, though I agree, absolutely ;), that much > of this speculation is, to the point, absolutist in dividing who is > good and bad in the books, I am afraid that this is the one case > that I simply cannot let go. > > I could go on, now, about how JKR must know how guilty she is of > allowing Kreacher to steal most of our last moments with Sirius from > us. > > And that SAD DENIAL has a right to a SIRIUS RESSURRECTION because we > were never given more than a few fleeting moments with the REAL > him. > > Oops I did go on with it didn't I. Bren: YES! Although I believe we'll get a full blast of much happier and fuller Sirius (face-wise) in Book 6 & 7!! JKR owes us that much, after you-know-what at DoM... (well she doesn't owe us anything really, but one can only hope...) Bren, handing in my application to "Sirius Protection League" From elizabethleclerc at hotmail.com Mon Jul 5 16:02:51 2004 From: elizabethleclerc at hotmail.com (mrslestrange) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 16:02:51 -0000 Subject: My Heart of It All Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104446 > Jen: There's a very interesting theory in the Fantastic Posts > section called Stoned!Harry, which explores Harry as the living > embodiment of the Philosopher's Stone. The idea is based on > alchemical interpretation of symbols in the series, and some of the > related posts are fascinating. > > Anyway, it makes for a good read for anyone considering Harry's > mortality, and the possibility that he is immortal and will have to > give it up to defeat Voldemort. Here's the link: > > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/hypotheticalley.html#ps > > This theory is under the section called Other Theories. Well, whaddaya know? I did search the archive for "immortal" but I missed this theory! I'd like to think, though, that Harry would be wise enough by the final book not to desire everlasting life (in stark contrast to book 1, in which he and Ron think Dumbledore is nuts to suggest that the Flamels are content to finally die), so he wouldn't have to "give it up" in order to defeat Voldy. Also, suddenly being able to die doesn't mean it's certain he will die at, what, 18? He'll just have to be more cautious, like the rest of us! :) As for the scar thingy in book 7, oops! Yes, the scar vanishing idea is just speculation, isn't it? Sorry about "Bella" From mhbobbin at yahoo.com Mon Jul 5 18:59:02 2004 From: mhbobbin at yahoo.com (mhbobbin) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 18:59:02 -0000 Subject: Return from the Underworld in Ancient Mythology (Re: Sirius Black) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104447 Firedancer wrote: Now, when Harry is talking to Nick, Nick definitely says that Sirius chose, and I underlinechose here, to go on. That seems to indicate that the man definitely died. Now, I do hope there is a way for Sirius to come back in some fashion, but how's he going to swing it? Finwitch wrote: If Harry is to travel through the veil and come back.... why can't Sirius just comeback? Yes, Sirius is dead, I know this. However, I am concerned with how Harry is going to get to the underworld, and if it is through this veil, what is going to anchor him 'alive', so that he is able to come back? Fridwulfa wrote: But remember that all of us who think Harry will go the"underworld" and live to tell the tale are more or less basing our theories on ancient myths, and in all of them without exception the "hero" was able to return to the "living world" so... How? mhbobbin writes: There have been many excellent comments on this ancient myth-related theory. My personal take on it is that in each case of returning from the Underworld in Classic Mythology, there is some negotiation and then some condition put upon the event. Persephone can only spend part of the year away from the underworld. Orpheus must not look behind him to see if Eurydice is following?he does at the last minute, he loses her permanently and cannot enter the underworld again. Psyche is not supposed to open a jar given to her in the Underworld?she does, she dies, and is rescued by Zeus and brought to life. So even in Ancient Mythology there?s more to it than knowing where the entrance is and knowing how to get past the giant three headed dog.(Just where is Fluffy these days?) No doubt JKR will devise her own twists on the rules should she pursue a story line like this. JK Rowling has said that Sirius is dead, but she has also made statements apart from Sirius about how if a person is not properly dead etc. So her statements on this matter are not in my mind definitive in this instance. I do believe that Sirius is now dead. JKR could have also chosen many other ways to inflict sudden death on Sirius with the same lesson of coming to terms with loss. I believe that if JKR did not intend for us to reference these ancient myths and their possible implication for the story, she would not have killed Sirius in this particular fashion. I think the manner of death is rather lame unless she meant for us to make this connection. But the main reason that I lean to this theory is the presence of the pomegranate. JKR inserts it where it doesn?t even belong. Harry is not supposed to be adding it to the potion. And the only connection with pomegranate I can find is related to Persephone. Nearly Headless Nick does say that Sirius would go on etc.. But does he speak from true knowledge of Sirius? feelings?he hasn?t had contact with Sirius-- or does he speak from his own feelings of what Sirius would do if faced with the same dilemma as Nick? I don?t think Nick has any special knowledge of Sirius?s feelings here, only his own knowledge of death. My theory ultimately is that if Sirius is needed for a final battle etc. or has some special skill we don?t yet know about etc., that he would come back. He was considered a powerful wizard though he didn't get to use much of it. But it may be conditional. Harry may have to strike a bargain with whoever in JKR?s world controls these things. It may not be an easy bargain. mhbobbin From marnyhelfrich at comcast.net Mon Jul 5 19:06:50 2004 From: marnyhelfrich at comcast.net (Marny Helfrich) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 15:06:50 -0400 Subject: Language in OOTP less Americanized? Message-ID: <044b01c462c3$3a479110$8e2f8c45@mynewputer> No: HPFGUIDX 104448 Hello! You all have inspired me to reread OoTP and although I am only a few chapters in (at the ministry of magic), I'm reminded of something I noticed the first time and I wonder what you know about it. The language in this book (and I have the scholastic edition that was available the first night, yes I went to the bookstore at midnight) seems less "Americanized" that in the others. Just in what I have re-read today I have noticed "hosepipe," Ron calling Harry "mate," and a reference to Harry's "fringe" (bangs). I wonder if they were in such a hurry to get the book out that they didn't take the time to change everything? Apologies if this is a FAQ, Marny From pandrea100 at hotmail.com Mon Jul 5 07:51:22 2004 From: pandrea100 at hotmail.com (pandrea100) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 07:51:22 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry and Hermione Foreshadowing in PoA movie? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104449 > mayeaux45 wrote:> > First of all Alfonso decides for a close up shot on Hermione > > whenever Harry comes down stairs to greet them while staying at > the > > Leaky Cauldron. I don't specifically remember the shots in this scene, but film making simply doesn't work like this. The director chooses close ups based on either dialogue or the framing of the shot dependent on the location. In that cramped set, shot from above, it probably just made better aesthetic sense. > Second, Alfonso so cleverly puts an homage to Y > tu > > Mama Tambien in the movie by having the three young stars console > > each other at the execution of Buckbeak. Note: Harry is consoling > > Hermione and Hermione is holding on to Ron, but who is Ron > > consoling...? No one! Before I go on, let me just add that there > > are some clues to Ron and Hermione as well, but we're focusing on > > Harry and Hermione at this particular time. Well, why? I think this scene shows the exact opposite. In a situation where she is really upset, Hermione turns instinctively to Ron for comfort. Anyway, a reference to Y Tu Mama Tambien actually backs up a Harry/Ron affair more than anything else - that film shows that the two guys really want to be with each other, not the woman - and I highly doubt that was the intention of this scene! > > Moving on... The third clue is when Alfonso has Hermione fall onto > > Harry when entering the Whomping Willow tree (that's not in the > > books)! I suppose, but I don't think it's significant. It's just the way they finish that action sequence. > Clue Four, Harry and Hermione are holding each other's > hands > > at many points in the movie (even at times when it is not needed... > > Ex: going up the stairs to the Shrieking Shack, running through > the > > forests, and so on)!!!! Again, I see it the other way entirely. It's not a big deal for them to hold hands, because they're only friends. But when Hermione and Ron accidentally touch, it's awkward and charged with tension because there is attraction there. > > Clue Five, the music that was chosen for each scene is amazing. > > Alfonso is known for his attention to detail. When Harry and > > Hermione were sitting down waiting for 'themselves' to come out of > > the whomping willow, the imagery and music that was playing was > > really "magical" (almost romantic?) The camera pans from the birds > > that were flying from the sky towards Harry and Hermione sitting > > under the tree. Well. That's an interpretation and I think you're stretching it here. > Clue Six, Hindsight is 20/20...think about that! > > (The Time Turner)...draw your own conclusions about this one. I'm not sure what you mean. > Clue > > Seven, the position in which Harry and Hermione were sitting > > underneath the tree. Hermione was sitting slightly behind Harry. > > The way in which she looked at him was foreshadowing all on its > own. Foreshadowing of her, what, looking up at him again? > > > > NOTE: I'm also a fan of Ron/Hermione, so I'm not really biased > with > > the whole Harry/Hermione relationship! Just wanted all you R/Hr > > fans out there to know that. But you have to admit...the clues > are > > there (in the movie and especially after OotP). Let me know what > > you think! I don't think the clues are there at all. But ironically, I don't actually care if it turns out in the books that Harry and Hermione do get together. I will be very surprised but won't mind at all. In fact, I think there's sometimes too much silliness talked about such young teenagers deciding on their future partners for life so early. It's as if people can't conceive of someone having more than one boyfriend/girlfriend in their life. There is no absolute need to pair everyone up and marry them off, but again, I'm sure I'll probably like whatever JK does with them as she has handled this sort of thing (Ginny's casual boyfriends, Harry and Cho fizzling out) well so far. From tubadave at normalview.com Mon Jul 5 05:51:53 2004 From: tubadave at normalview.com (Big D) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 05:51:53 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry and Hermione Foreshadowing in PoA movie? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104450 I'll carve this up a bit and give a point-by-point response. I'll give a brief disclaimer...I'm very much a believer that Ron and Hermione will wind up together at some point, but I'll try to be as objective as possible when I respond here. mayeaux45: > First of all Alfonso decides for a close up shot on Hermione > whenever Harry comes down stairs to greet them while staying at > the Leaky Cauldron. Big D: That's not entirely correct. Hermione is standing closer to Harry than Ron is during that entire sequence, but at no point does the camera focus on her. mayeaux45: > Second, Alfonso so cleverly puts an homage to Y tu > Mama Tambien in the movie by having the three young stars console > each other at the execution of Buckbeak. Note: Harry is consoling > Hermione and Hermione is holding on to Ron, but who is Ron > consoling...? No one! Big D: Several others have made the connection between that shot and Y Tu Mama Tambien, but honestly, I can't see anything in that shot that proves or disproves any SHIP, whether it's H/Hr or R/Hr. mayeaux45: > The third clue is when Alfonso has Hermione fall onto > Harry when entering the Whomping Willow tree (that's not in the > books)! Big D: As with the previous clue, it doesn't seem to prove or disprove anything. It always struck me as a mild bit of slapstick humor...much like moments before, when Hermione grabbed Harry while the Willow is flinging her about and Harry's gives us a cartoon-like look just before he's pulled off his feet. mayeaux45: > Clue Four, Harry and Hermione are holding each other's hands > at many points in the movie (even at times when it is not needed... > Ex: going up the stairs to the Shrieking Shack, running through > the forests, and so on)!!!! Big D: Most of the times when they hold hands (that I can recall) comes from the last part of the movie, where they're constantly either running from one place to another, or in the midst of a particularly frightening situation, or both. One person grabbing the hand of the other to pull them along, keep them from falling behind as you run, etc., is not an uncommon thing, and does not indicate romantic attachment, or lack thereof, in my opinion. The same goes for two people (friends, lovers, whatever) instinctively moving closer together when entering an unknown and frightening place (i.e. the Shrieking Shack.) mayeaux45: > Clue Five, the music that was chosen for each scene is amazing. > Alfonso is known for his attention to detail. When Harry and > Hermione were sitting down waiting for 'themselves' to come out of > the whomping willow, the imagery and music that was playing was > really "magical" (almost romantic?) The camera pans from the birds > that were flying from the sky towards Harry and Hermione sitting > under the tree. Big D: I'll concede that the music in this scene seemed a bit more "happy" than the scene called for, and that I can easily see how it could be interpreted the way you describe it. However, I'm almost positive that the birds you mentioned were actually bats. mayeaux45: > Clue Six, Hindsight is 20/20...think about that! > (The Time Turner)...draw your own conclusions about this one. Big D: You're going to have to elaborate for me on this one, because I have no idea what you're talking about here. mayeaux45: > Clue Seven, the position in which Harry and Hermione were sitting > underneath the tree. Hermione was sitting slightly behind Harry. > The way in which she looked at him was foreshadowing all on its > own. Big D: That look could easily be interpreted that way, or as Hermione simply being very happy for Harry's happiness as he imagines life away from the Dursleys. As I've said several times above, there's insufficient evidence for either case. If JKR intends to eventually pair off Hermione with Harry, instead of Ron, then's she's done a masterful job of leading us the wrong way, because almost all of the evidence I've ever seen supporting a H/Hr ship is very easily explained in other ways, while several of the clues pointing towards an eventual R/Hr ship are about as subtle as getting hit in the head with a brick. Big D From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Mon Jul 5 19:39:11 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 19:39:11 -0000 Subject: JKR's chills Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104451 Re the 'chills' for JKR from the PoA film, I have re-watched the film and noted some of the occurences that happen in the film but not in the book: These are in no particular order but my fave is number 1. 1) Sirius comes back as a dog, permanently! He says about James preferring him as a dog and wanting him to stay that way, but that's not in the book. I don't know how that would work though!! 2) That the R/Hr Ship is-a sailing! Whenever she gets a chance she holds his hand/ hugs him etc. I know the H/Hr shippers will say the same but I feel (and got the impression from the books esp. GoF) that it would go R/Hr. I guess we see what we want to see more than anything else! To the poster (sorry, can't remember who) who mentioned about Hermione falling on Harry in the S/Shack, when Hermione falls on H, he is facing the ground, surely if this was an indication, he'd be facing her? Just MHO 3) Hermione becomes a werewolf!! Lupin bites her during one of his monthly outbursts! She bayes at Lupin in the film and not in the book (I think) ;-)) 4) The Fat Lady becomes an opera singer!! With that wonderful voice of hers that can shatter glass, she could go far!!!!!! That's all for now folks! Aggie From danjerri at madisoncounty.net Mon Jul 5 18:56:53 2004 From: danjerri at madisoncounty.net (jerrichase) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 18:56:53 -0000 Subject: New poll for HPforGrownups In-Reply-To: <1088943253.382.98873.w57@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104452 > o Other (please post to explain choice) I think it is possible that Crookshanks is the HBP, as we know he is Half Kneazle (and thus a half blood) and unusually smart. And in addition to the mention of Kneazle's in Fantastic Beasts, the word also was used a few times in OoP, but never defined there. I am sure that Crookshanks has a more important role in one of the last two books, so why not this one? From HPGroup at colinogilvie.co.uk Mon Jul 5 16:35:44 2004 From: HPGroup at colinogilvie.co.uk (Colin O) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 17:35:44 +0100 Subject: Hogwarts: A History In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40E98360.6070303@colinogilvie.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 104453 smartone564 wrote: > Do you think that JKR might eventually write A History of Magic, or > Hogwarts, A History of sometime as she did QTA and FBaWtFY? > Though, if she did, JKR has said a lot of information is in those > two books, that might be hard to fit in. Oh, and I can't forget these > books cover thousands of years of history..... I believe JKR did say somewhere (and I can't remember where I read it now) that if she did decide to write anything like that, it would be for Charity just like QTA and Fantastic Beasts were. -- Colin From griffin782002 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 5 20:28:07 2004 From: griffin782002 at yahoo.com (sp. sot.) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 13:28:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Return from the Underworld in Greek Mythology (Re: Sirius Black Poll) In-Reply-To: <015c01c462ae$b36d8ff0$e60b8f45@Voov> Message-ID: <20040705202807.74092.qmail@web90001.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104454 Firedancer wrote: We've got an interesting situation here. First, I don't think Belatrix managed to kill Sirius in book five. To be honest with you, I think he tripped or something and ended up falling behind the veil. Now, when Harry is talking to Nick, Nick definitely says that Sirius chose, and I underline chose here, to go on. That seems to indicate that the man definitely died. Now, I do hope there is a way for Sirius to come back in some fashion, but how's he going to swing it? And to think all this could have been avoided if Harry had had the sense to remember and use that little mirror! June None but the piper keeps up with the dancer! Siempre revelde!! June Griffin782002 says: Well, as I have said I can't deny that he really might be dead. Nothing is clear yet. In her webchat J.K.R. didn't answer if Sirius will be back in other form. It is one of the reasons why I believe he might be back. And to the member that mentioned an example from other Mythologies. I also mentoined in my first post about Mythology that Sirius has some simmilarities, on certain points with Gandalf, from The Lord of the Rings. Well, first they both are trapped in a place with no obvious escape, Sirius in a office high in a tower and Gandalf high on the tower of Isengard. They both escape with the help of a flying creature, Sirius with buckbeak, Gandalf with an eagle. And they both seem to die, well at least Gandalf when everything seem to be over, Sirius when Dumbledore appears and everyone else stopped fighting and Gandalf when the Balrock had fallen in the abyss. I wonder if Sirius will follow the same course. I actually think it would be very exiting I would be glad to discuss it. Griffin782002 From MadameSSnape at aol.com Mon Jul 5 20:33:25 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 16:33:25 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape Question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104455 In a message dated 7/5/2004 1:07:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, editor at texas.net writes: June: > Snape is one of those folks you're always going to wonder about. My > question is, where did the wimpy teen get the how-with-all to become so > menacing? I don't think being a death-eater is for sissies, unless you're > Wormtail. Any thoughts on that one? And Amanda: I don't think he's particularly wimpy. Skinny, greasy hair--but not wimpy. He managed to give James a pretty good cut, and he was totally ready to fight both of them. I sort of equate wimps with Wormtail's behavior--cringing, whining, trying to get away--and Snape, even as a teenager, even hanging upside down, was doing none of that. He wanted to kick some ass. ============ Sherrie here: If anyone was "wimpy" in that scene, it was the Marauders. James & Sirius - have to attack two on one? And Remus (much as I like the man), didn't have the cojones to stop them. The one with the most bottom is Lily. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Mon Jul 5 20:34:11 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 20:34:11 -0000 Subject: Almond-shaped eyes & the Sphinx (Re: Pensieve scene - Lily revealed?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104456 > Alla wrote: > What if as it was discussed here Harry will indeed travel into > underworld and to get closer to his goal (I hope it will be to find > Sirius, but it could be anything of course - the ultimate defeat of > Voldie sounds good too) he will have to figure some of the puzzles > which his mother gives him just as Sphinx did? Bren now: To quote Captain Jack Sparrow (whom I imagine Sirius to look like) -- "That's very interesting." What do we know (from Greek Mythology and other myths and fantasy) about: 1. Going to Underworld to Save Someone who's Dead? 2. Going to Underworld to Acquire a "Weapon" (ie. knowledge, power, etc)? 3. Solving Riddles/Puzzles or Old Nursery Rhymes to Continue the Journey? 4. Going Beyond Veil? Also, I wonder if Priori Incantatum has anything to do with this going-to-underworld theory... Bren, "Elizabeth, it wouldn't have worked between us" From jahibe at earthlink.net Mon Jul 5 17:49:12 2004 From: jahibe at earthlink.net (janetb) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 13:49:12 -0400 Subject: Pensieve scene - Lily revealed? References: Message-ID: <010501c462b8$62058550$31289518@janet> No: HPFGUIDX 104457 Andromeda wrote: >> does anyone else think that the Pensieve scene of James tormenting Snape was as much to reveal Lily's character as anything? As much as we've ever been given, anyway. I think she came out looking rather impressive. Lily stepped right in between, even to defend a racist jerk. Having never actually seen an example of a teen peer willing to get between an armed bully and his (also armed) victim, I find this a mark of a truly strong and brave person. Harry, of course, was focused on the shock of his father's behavior.. after all his idolizing of his father throughout the other books, not too surprising, even though it was his mother that saved his life. She's gotten suspiciously short shrift. Saving up some bombshells for the end, I hope. << I think that pensieve scene reveals all sorts of things....I certainly agree with you that it shines a favorable light on Lily. It also shines a rather heartwrenching light on Snape too, but James's obnoxious behavior bothered me for a long time. I couldn't figure out why JKR portrayed James in such a disagreeable light just to create sympathy for Snape or to illustrate Lily's good heart. There had to be something else.... Granted, it's nothing but my opinion but perhaps JKR also created that scene as a means (among other things) of illustrating Harry's normal adolescent growth. Prior to that, Harry obviously idolized his parents. Pretty typical behavior for children to believe their parents can do wrong...but when they hit their teens and start forming their own belief systems, those ideas and opinions are usually not exact replicas of their parents. They start to rebel, to question, to see their parents as PEOPLE instead of some sort of idolized creation....and for Harry to see his parents, most particularly, his father (which, if I'm not forgetting my Psych 101 classes, is normal for boys to "break away" from their dads first) acting like a moron is just another device for Harry to grow up. Of course, I could be dead wrong and yes, I know not every person goes through those stages and yes, I realize lots of other things are going on in that scene that go beyond my theory but nevertheless, I'm just throwing my idea out there on the floor. Janet (who knew that one scene could create so many ideas?) From dzeytoun at cox.net Mon Jul 5 18:35:09 2004 From: dzeytoun at cox.net (dzeytoun) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 18:35:09 -0000 Subject: Does the prophecy suggest that both have to die (was: Harry will die) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104458 Carin said: > I agree with Wanda on this one. I recently had a look at what the OED > has to say about "either", and without quoting dictionary-babble at > you, I can report that it documents both either = "both", "each of > two" and either = "one or the other". The former is verging on the > obsolete, but was the original meaning of the word. The language of > prophecy is typically tinged with the archaic anyway, which I think > admits the obsolete meaning "both" here, and I think any ambiguity in > the prophecy probably hinges on the interpretation of "either". When > JKR says that both she and Trelawny phrased the prophecy very > carefully, I take her to mean that she deliberately chose the > ambiguous "either" (rather than saying "ONE must die at the hand of > the other or sim.) to keep open the possibility that both will die. > This seems to me to be fundamental overreach. Although JKR often makes wordplays, to use something THAT esoteric would be well out of character for her. I think she meant exactly what she said "EITHER" as in the modern and common usage of ONE OR THE OTHER NOT BOTH. I'm sorry, but I just can't see any ambiguity here. Dzeytoun From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Mon Jul 5 17:48:37 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 5 Jul 2004 17:48:37 -0000 Subject: Sirius,Snape,Lily,CoS(s) Message-ID: <20040705174837.4904.qmail@webmail8.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104459 ? >>>>Andromeda here: >>>>Well, Sirius did drag Ron into the Shrieking Shack and break his >>>>leg, right? I suspect that is the act for which he might want to >>>>apologize. Although I think he did apologize. But I, too, think he >>>>just wanted to give Harry a nice present after being out of touch so >>>>many years and to say "thanks for saving my soul from being sucked >>>>out of my body". He did give Ron the owl (Pig) as a consolation prize. Amey: Are we confusing the movie and the books here. I mean if I remember right, in PoA book, Harry gets Firebolt on Christmas, and that is much before he saves Sirius. In fact at that time, Hermione tells McGonagall and she takes the Firebolt away to check for spells because they believe that the broom has been sent by Sirius (they were right there, not spells part :)). So he gave Firebolt to Harry as "a birthday gift for 13 birthdays" (PoA - not exact words, sorry.). He gave Pig to Ron because "it was his fault" Scabbers vanished. (Though that was a good thing). >>>>Question though, did fake Moody say the name? Amey: I can clarify here. He (the fake Moody) is always saying "Dark Lord" at least from what I remember, he never once says LV's name. >>>>Cathy: >>>>> Does this mean that Snape was a member of the Order, left (for >>>>some reason) to be a Death Eater, then returned (for some reason) to >>>>the Order and turned spy? He is an accomplished Occlumens, could he >>>>have possibly become a Death Eater only to be a spy for the Order? >>>>> Just a curiosity as I came across it in reading this morning. Amey: What I think about it is, Snape first was DE, but somewhere down the line he changed his line and turned spy for Order. Some points of interest there: 1. What made him change the side? (Must have been discussed about zillion times, so please forgive me for raising this. But I think this is one important point which will be cleared in 6 & 7) 2.Now that DD has declared himself that he was spy before LV was defeated for the first time in front of many witnesses, how could he return to LV and still be alive? (I mean, somebody would notice if Snape took a leaf out of Binn's book and started teaching even after he is killed by LV, right? I think, he is taking a great risk here... One point for Snape supporters). >>>>>Ruth wrote: >>>>>When the Weasley twins explain the Marauder's Map to Harry, they tell him that they used to use a certain tunnel under >>>>>Hogwarts but it's been caved in, blocked. >>>>>What blocked it? My guess is the rebounding curse of Professor Lockheart using Ron's damaged wand and the subsequent >>>>>rockslide that separated Harry from Ron. It suggests that there may have been more than one entry to the Chamber of >>>>>Secrets, and that the Chamber contained more secrets than just Tom Riddle and the Basilisk. And you needn't be a >>>>>Parselmouth to access it. The Weasley twins may simply have followed the easiest path and ignored the movie-oriented >>>>>doorway to Salazar Slytherin's secret chamber. Why the Marauder's Map could discern the tunnel and none of the elder >>>>>wise wizards could - well, that's anyone's guess. Amey : Well, one thing is that the doorway is also mentioned in the book. But yes, there could be more than one gate. Though I doubt how they never come across Basilisk or at least its great green (I don't remember the full description, sorry) skin, or they just didn't mention it to anybody? But I am sure of one thing, I for one will be eager to learn why it is called "Chamber of Secrets" even though the only Secret we know as coming out of it till now is Basilisk (not considering the great statue of SS). It must have something else than just a snake and statue. >>>>>Andromeda >>>>>Well, maybe that's a little harsh, but by the end of that Penseive >>>>>scene, were you not disgusted by everyone but Lily? Maybe 15-year- >>>>>old boys just aren't very likeable? Harry, of course, was focused on >>>>>the shock of his father's behavior.. after all his idolizing of his >>>>>father throughout the other books, not too surprising, even though it >>>>>was his mother that saved his life. She's gotten suspiciously short >>>>>shrift. Saving up some bombshells for the end, I hope. Amey: Well, as I am a boy, I can say that the boys normally idolize their fathers. Mothers are normally just taken for granted. So it is quite natural that he idolizes his father. After all James was on House Quiddich team (a Chaser if I remember right), he was top of class, he created The Map, he was a part of Marauders. As opposed to that, what do we know about Lily? She had green eyes (somehow this comes up everywhere, so adding it to the list), she was a Prefect, and she was ready to stand against a popular hero (read James) for a person who insulted her. That's all. It speaks something of her character of course, but it is not as much as we know about others who are equally or sometimes even less central to the theme. So I think, there is some story yet to come from Lily. Bombshells? Well, maybe. But I don't see it fitting in HBP part anywhere, so I think we might have to wait for the 7th part for it unless HBP is someone related to her and not TMR as I believe. As usual, the post has become a long one, so signing off before all stop reading my mails Amey From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jul 5 20:53:07 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 20:53:07 -0000 Subject: McGonagall's character was Re: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104460 Aggie wrote: I have noted with my lurking that Kneasy seems to rule as intellectual king, but for him/her to send us > off on a double-cross just to 'prove' his theory doesn't seem to ring > true. Potioncat to List Elves: Quick, delete that last line before Kneasy reads it! That's all we need! Aggie: I may be being naive here but I take that passage in PoA to be > a fitting account of how it is. Becoming an animagi MUST be > difficult, otherwise surely nearly every wizard would be one!! Potioncat: Yes, the passage, which has been snipped away now, did indeed support the idea that Serius, although not a serious student, most likely had stellar grades. It was just my way of getting back at Kneasy. (Once you get to know us, you'll know who's kidding and when and who is never kidding! Just wait till you hear about the Snape twins) Aggie: > While I'm here, can someone please explain who Mark Evans is??? > Please forgive my ignorance!! Mark Evans is mentioned very briefly in one of the first chapters. He's a 10 year old who has been beaten up byDudley. The important part (we think) is that his last name is Evans just like Harry's Mum. Very good first post and welcome to Bedlam! Potioncat From bhobbs at midmaine.com Mon Jul 5 20:45:12 2004 From: bhobbs at midmaine.com (Belinda) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 20:45:12 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts: A History In-Reply-To: <40E98360.6070303@colinogilvie.co.uk> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104461 smartone564 wrote: > Do you think that JKR might eventually write A History of Magic, > or Hogwarts, A History of sometime as she did QTA and FBaWtFY? In the FAQ on her webiste, in About the Books, she says she is considering writing an eighth book, a sort of encyclopedia of the world, for charity. Wouldn't that be great! Belinda From nicholas at adelanta.co.uk Mon Jul 5 22:20:11 2004 From: nicholas at adelanta.co.uk (nicholas at adelanta.co.uk) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 23:20:11 +0100 Subject: Movie Foreshadowing of books 6 and 7 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104462 >From: "cincimaelder" >> JK Rowling says that Prisoner of Azkaban director Alfonso Cuaron >> inadvertantly foreshadowed events from books six and seven in the >> latest movie. "I really got goose bumps when I saw a couple of those >> things, and I thought, people are going to look back on the film and >> think that those were put in deliberately as clues," Rowling said. >> >> Any thoughts on which parts of PoA foreshadow 6 and 7? I've already posted this on the movie list. To give JKR goosebumps, it would have to be something that Cuaron put in that is not in the book. My candidate is the 'reflections' motif which crops up five times on the screen. I think that Harry may use a Time-Turner again in the future, and come face-to-face with himself. Cheers, Nicholas From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Mon Jul 5 21:16:34 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 21:16:34 -0000 Subject: CoS versus the Dark Mark (was Re: Sirius,Snape,Lily,CoS) In-Reply-To: <20040705174837.4904.qmail@webmail8.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104463 "Amey Chinchorkar" wrote: **snip** But I am sure of one thing, I for one will be eager to learn why it is called "Chamber of Secrets" even though the only Secret we know as coming out of it till now is Basilisk (not considering the great statue of SS). It must have something else than just a snake and statue. ----------- Not a reply per se, but this little line inspired my mind to connect the imagery of the statue of slytherin opening it's mouth to let loose the great Basilisk and the imagery of the Dark Mark where the serpent is protruding from the mouth of a skull. Too similiar for a coincidence, I'm thinking. And what do we know about mouths? Morsmordre (consume/eat death) is the incantation for the Dark Mark, a soul can be sucked out of a mouth by a Dementor (soul-searching kiss, anyone?) and of course the stigma of a parselmouth. I'm getting the feeling more and more that Harry and Voldemort are connected through their souls and that the thing that made Tom Riddle the Dark Lord is also what enables Harry to be The One. And I also think it must go all the way back to Slytherin, and by necessity then, Gryffindor, too. Arya (whose gears are grinding away) From LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com Mon Jul 5 21:27:54 2004 From: LadyMacbeth at unlimited-mail.com (Lady Macbeth) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 21:27:54 -0000 Subject: Werewolf Hermione (Was: JKR's chills) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104464 Aggie wrote: 3) Hermione becomes a werewolf!! Lupin bites her during one of his monthly outbursts! She bayes at Lupin in the film and not in the book (I think) ;-)) Lady Macbeth Replies: This is the big thing that I picked up on. I don't know if Hermione will actually BECOME a werewolf, or if she's just going to be working with werewolves/Lupin more because she has some talent that calms them, but I noticed that the werewolf not only listened to and followed her howl but also listened to her when she was trying to talk to him - it wasn't until Snape showed up on the scene that the werewolf snapped again and started attacking people. Though, the Werewolf-Hermione angle could certainly make things complicated for a Ron/Hermione relationship. :S -Lady Macbeth From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Jul 5 21:29:22 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 21:29:22 -0000 Subject: Fake Moody says the name was Re: Sirius,Snape,Lily,CoS(s) In-Reply-To: <20040705174837.4904.qmail@webmail8.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104465 > Amey: > I can clarify here. He (the fake Moody) is always saying "Dark Lord" at least from what I remember, he never once says LV's name. < "Voldemort's back,Harry? You're sure he's back? How did he do it?" --Fake Moody, GoF ch 35. Much as Harry would like it to be, saying or not saying the name is not a litmus test for allegiance to the Dark Lord. You don't really think it would be that easy, do you? Pippin From firedancerflash at comcast.net Mon Jul 5 21:36:05 2004 From: firedancerflash at comcast.net (Firedancer) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 17:36:05 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Werewolf Hermione (Was: JKR's chills) References: Message-ID: <00d601c462d8$13d83150$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 104466 No, no, I think she just happened on hitting the right thing to do. Inspiring, yes, but probably coincidental. June None but the piper keeps up with the dancer! Siempre revelde!! June From heretherebedragons at gmail.com Mon Jul 5 21:48:25 2004 From: heretherebedragons at gmail.com (hebridean_black_dragn) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 21:48:25 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 22 - St. Mungo's Hospital Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104467 Chapter Twenty-Two Summary - St. Mungo's Hospital for Magical Maladies and Injuries The chapter opens with McGonagall taking Harry and Ron to see Professor Dumbledore, after Harry woke from a vision in which he saw Arthur Weasley being attacked and seriously wounded by a giant snake. They arrive in Dumbledore's office, where Harry explains that it wasn't a nightmare that he'd had. Dumbledore asks specifically "how" Harry saw this, and Harry admits that he'd seen it from the snake's point of view. Harry is irritated that Dumbledore doesn't look at him, but instead looks at his fingers, the ceiling, or Ron. Dumbledore speaks to two of the portraits in his office, those of Everard and Dilys, asking them to raise an alarm so Arthur could be found by the "right people." They both agree, and the two leave their paintings, but rather than appearing in neighboring paintings, they both disappear. Dumbledore explains that Everard and Dilys were so renowned that they have portraits hanging in other wizarding institutions. Free to move between their own portraits, Dumbledore hopes they could gather information elsewhere and bring it back. Dumbledore sends Fawkes off to act as a sentry, and then takes out a silver instrument Harry had never seen used before. When tapped with Dumbledore's wand, the instrument begins making rhythmic clicking noises and issuing small puffs of pale green smoke from a silver tube at the top. As Dumbledore watches, brows furrowed, the puffs became a steady stream of smoke which shifts into the shape of a serpent. Sounding unsurprised by this, Dumbledore murmurs, "Naturally, naturally," and then asks, "But in essence divided?" The smoke divides itself into two snakes. Looking grimly satisfied, Dumbledore taps the instrument, and it grows quiet again. Before Harry could ask what the instrument did, Everard reappears in his painting. He tells Dumbledore that he was able to get help for Arthur, who had been covered in blood and didn't look good when he was carried up. Moments later, Dilys returns, confirming that Arthur, looking bad, had arrived at St. Mungo's. Dumbledore asks McGonagall to wake the other Weasley children, and says that he will send Fawkes for Molly once he was finished keeping lookout. Dumbledore goes to another portrait, this one of a clever-looking wizard with a pointed beard, wearing Slytherin colours. Dumbledore speaks to him several times before the person in the portrait responds from his obviously feigned sleep. When Phineas is finally "awake," Dumbledore asks him to visit his other portrait and deliver a message. When Phineas says he is too tired, the other portraits in the room protest, saying it is Phineas' duty to serve the current Head of Hogwarts. Phineas agrees to help, but says he won't be surprised if Sirius had destroyed his painting. At this point, Harry remembers where he'd heard that voice before - from the painting in his bedroom at Grimmauld Place. Dumbledore assures Phineas that the painting has not been destroyed, and asks him to tell Sirius that Arthur Weasley has been injured, and that his wife, children, and Harry Potter would be arriving shortly. McGonagall returns, with the rest of the Weasley students. Before Harry could speak, Dumbledore explains that Arthur has been injured in the course of his work for the Order, and has been taken to St. Mungo's. Dumbledore adds that he is going to send them to Sirius' house for convenience. When Fred asks if they'd be traveling by floo powder, Dumbledore tells him that would be too dangerous, as the Network was being watched, so they'd be traveling by Portkey instead. A flash of flame appears, and a single golden feather floats onto the floor: a warning from Fawkes that Umbridge is coming. Dumbledore says she must know the students are out of their beds, and asks McGonagall to go and stall her. Phineas reappears, telling Dumbledore in a bored voice that Sirius had said he'd be delighted to have house guests. Dumbledore tells them to hurry, and the students gather around Dumbledore's desk. As they reach out to touch the Portkey, Harry looks up at Dumbledore, and in that split second, Dumbledore meets Harry's eyes with his own. Immediately, Harry's scar burns white-hot, and a feeling of hatred - unwanted but terrifyingly strong - rises up inside Harry. He has the urge to strike, to bite, to sink his fangs into Dumbledore . . . Then, the Portkey is activated, and Harry is pulled, along with the others, to the basement of Grimmauld Place. Harry hears Kreacher say, "Back again, the blood-traitor brats. Is it true their father's dying?" Sirius roars "OUT!" in response, after which Kreacher disappears through the doorway. Sirius helps the others to their feet, asking what had happened. Fred tells him to ask Harry, and George agrees that *he'd* like to hear Harry's story, as well. Harry tells them what he saw, although he makes it sound as though he'd been outside the snake, watching. He feels they are blaming him for what happened, and he doesn't want to make it sound any worse. Ginny and the others want to go to St. Mungo's immediately, but Sirius tells them that they can't - that it would raise suspicion for the Weasley children to arrive before their mother. When the twins argue, Sirius adds that they don't want to draw attention to the fact that Harry is having visions of things happening hundreds of miles away, because of the danger in the Ministry learning that information. The Weasleys become angry, saying they don't care about The Order, and when Sirius tells them that their father knew what he was getting into, Fred snaps at Sirius, "That's easy for you to say, stuck here . . . I don't see you risking your neck!" Sirius becomes pale, but remains calm, telling them again that they must be patient until they hear from Molly. While they wait for news, Harry feels guilty about the attack, and wonders if he was the one who'd attacked Arthur, especially in light of the urge he'd had afterward to attack Dumbledore. Finally, word comes from Molly (via Fawkes) that Arthur is still alive, and that she is on her way to St. Mungo's, and would send more news as soon as she could. They sit through the rest of the long night together, until Molly arrives at 10 past five in the morning. She tells them that Arthur will be all right, and that they could all go visit him later. Sirius begins preparing for breakfast, but when he calls for Kreacher to help, the house elf does not appear. Sirius tells the others they'd be welcome to stay as long as Mr. Weasley is in the hospital, which means they'd be there for Christmas. Harry asks to speak privately with Sirius, and tells him the truth about what he'd seen the night before, and what happened later with Dumbledore. Sirius tells him not to worry, and that all he needs is some sleep. Harry is unable to sleep, although the others do, until it is time to get up and prepare to visit Arthur. Mad-Eye Moody and Tonks arrive, to escort them to St. Mungo's via the Underground. They arrive in front of what appears to be an abandoned department store, but when Tonks speaks to a mannequin in the window, they are able to enter the building, and find themselves in the reception area of St. Mungo's Hospital. After a wait in the queue at the reception desk (where they see a number of people with interesting and bizarre ailments), they are directed to the "'Dangerous' Dai Llewellyn" ward for serious bites, where they find Arthur in good spirits, and apparently comfortable. Arthur tries to talk to the group about some news in the Daily Prophet, but the twins ask for information about where and what had happened the night before. It i obvious that neither Molly nor Arthur want to discuss it, and when the children persist with their questions, Molly tells them to go out and wait in the hall. Mad-Eye and Tonks go in to see Arthur. While they wait, Fred and George pull out "extendable ears" for eavesdropping. They give one to Harry, telling him that since he'd saved their dad's life, he has as much right as anyone to listen in. Harry inserts one end of the string into his ear, and then watches the other end snake away under the door to Arthur's room. After a moment, he hears the conversation: Tonks comments that they never found the snake, and Moody suggests that "You-Know-Who" had sent it in as a lookout. Moody continues, "So, Potter says he saw it all happen?" Molly, sounding uneasy, confirms this, and adds that Dumbledore seemed to have been waiting for something like this to happen. Moody comments, "Yeah, well . . . there's something funny about the Potter kid, we all know that." Mrs. Weasley adds that Dumbledore seemed worried about Harry when she'd spoke with him earlier in the day, and Moody growls, "'Course he's worried . . . The boy's seeing things from inside You-Know-Who's snake. Obviously, Potter doesn't realise what that means, but if You-Know-Who's possessing him - " Harry removes the extendable ear, feeling his heart race and his face flush. The others stare at him, looking fearful. Questions: What are the implications of portrait people being able to move freely within their own portraits? Can each person appear in only one at any given time? In what other ways could this be useful to Harry, or the Order; conversely, how could this prove dangerous? Do the images in the chocolate frog cards have this ability as well? What is the overall function of the silver instrument? And what, in this instance, did Dumbledore learn from it? What is the meaning of his question, "in essence divided?" Can Phineas, obviously a Slytherin and member of the Black family, be trusted? What are the implications of the fact that the Floo Network is being watched? If it weren't being watched, could the students have traveled out of Hogwarts using the Floo Network, or is that blocked, as apparition is? What caused Harry to have that urge to kill Dumbledore? Was it connected to the visions? Was he being possessed by Voldemort? How might Fred's comment to Sirius ("I don't see you risking your neck!") have affected Sirius? Might this have contributed to Sirius' attitude and actions later in the book? Why are the adults so reluctant to discuss any of the details of this situation with the children? Do the adults (and Moody in particular) really care about Harry as a person, or do they mostly see him as a pawn in the fight against Voldemort? To what degree is Harry receiving (or *not* receiving) support from the adults in his life? NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/67817 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/85829 and: "OotP Chapter Discussions" at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database" -- Wendy (Thanks to Penapart Elf for the proofreading and suggestions; any errors that may remain, however, are entirely my own responsibility). :-) From rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu Mon Jul 5 21:49:49 2004 From: rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu (susanbones2003) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 21:49:49 -0000 Subject: JKR's chills In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104468 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aggiepaddy" wrote: >BIG SNIP > 3) Hermione becomes a werewolf!! Lupin bites her during one of his > monthly outbursts! She bayes at Lupin in the film and not in the book > (I think) ;-)) > More snipping > > That's all for now folks! > > Aggie Hi, I thought that in 3 instances, some serious foreshadowing was occuring in regard to Hermione and werewolves... 1-When Malfoy bays during the Werewolf lecture he seems to be somehow aiming his insult towards Hermione. 2-Hermione says herself that a werewolf will only answer the call of another werewolf. 3-When she attemps to distract Lupin/werewolf and she bays and he responds- that's a huge huge hint that she is somehow able to communicate with him and how can that be??? Jennifer From cmjohnstone at hotmail.com Mon Jul 5 21:55:23 2004 From: cmjohnstone at hotmail.com (littleleahstill) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 21:55:23 -0000 Subject: The prophecy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104469 Carin wrote (snip) >What puzzles me, though, is how the prophecy is to be reconciled with >the years we're currently reading about, in which both of them _are_, >for the moment, surviving. My literary take on this is that the >prophecy points to the fact that this situation (both H and LV alive) >is fundamentally unstable and untenable, and we are hurtling (but not >fast enough!) towards some kind of restoration of order in the >Potterverse. But my literal-minded take is a little frustrated by the >(existence of the) prophecy This has puzzled me too. If neither Harry or Voldemort can survive while the other lives (assuming this is what the prophecy means), then to paraphrase Harry, you'd have thought one of them would have stopped moving. When I looked at the prophecy again, what I got was a sense of it moving forward through time. Sybill and Dumbledore are sitting in the Hogshead in what must be the winter before Harry's birth: the one with the power is approaching, and both Lily and Alice must have conceived in the previous autumn. We then move onto the birth, by which time the parents of 'the one' must have defied Voldemort three times- this event need not have occured at the time of the prophecy. The birth must take place after the third defiance and at the end of July, so at the Hogshead time, this is still a future and unknowable event; Harry or Neville could have easily been born any time from mid July to mid August. 'And the dark lord will mark him as his equal'- if this is Godric's Hollow, then we have moved forward fifteen months from the birth. 'power the dark lord knows not' could refer to Lily's protection, in which case it is contemporaneous with the marking or could be Harry's power to love and grieve for others, which could be growing as he lives. It is certainly manifest in the MOM. So, 'neither can live' may well be looking forward to an event in the future, where Harry and Voldemort reach a crucial moment that only one of them can survive. I still wonder though why JKR used 'neither' and not 'one', so I'm sure I'm missing something, somewhere Leah From catlady at wicca.net Mon Jul 5 21:59:23 2004 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 21:59:23 -0000 Subject: Acronyms/The Prophecy/Ron'sFirstWand/Crookshanks as HBP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104470 Pandrea wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/104420 : << By the way, what does ESE mean? Eventually Secretly Evil? And what's this SAD Defence thingy? >> ESE is an acronym for Ever So Evil, which means 'secretly on LV's side'. SAD DENIAL is an acronym for something that means that the speaker refuses to believe that Sirius is really dead just because of falling through the Veil. Abbreviations and acronyms can be looked up at Inish Alley at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=28 Carin wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/104426 : << (To quote the section we're discussing, for reference: "and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives") (snip) What seems unambiguous to me is the second half of the bit quoted above: what is absolutely precluded by the prophecy is that both would survive. One or the other or both will die, but Harry AND Voldy living happily ever after is not in the cards. Dumbledore is pretty unambiguous, too, about a death being involved when he answers Harry's question about what the prophecy means. >> Suppose The Other is a third party. 'Either (The Dark Lord or the One or both) must die at the hand of The Other for neither (The Dark Lord or the One) can live while The Other survives'. The only way I can think of it being so important that The Other must survive (important enough to be worth Harry's life) is if The Other is the whole wizarding world, or the whole Muggle world. For the wizarding world to survive, both The One and The Dark Lord must die, one of them by legal execution? But if Neville is The Other, then Harry could be killed by LV in a fight which weakens LV enough for Neville to rush in and kill LV. Hermione Kitten (meow!) wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/104443 : << Take Ron, if I remember correctly we didn't know what his first wand was either >> Actually, PS/SS says: The rat was still snoozing on Ron's lap. "He might have died and you wouldn't know the difference," said Ron in disgust. "I tried to turn him yellow yesterday to make him more interesting, but the spell didn't work. I'll show you, look..." He rummaged around in his trunk and pulled out a very battered-looking wand. It was chipped in places and something white was glinting at the end. "Unicorn hair's nearly poking out. Anyway ... " So we know Ron's first wand had a unicorn hair core. One can argue that we only know this because it was important to JKR to show Ron's poverty by his used wand being worn out, or that the only reason for the 'spell' to turn Scabbers yellow was to let readers know it was unicorn hair. Jerri Chase wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/104452 : << I think it is possible that Crookshanks is the HBP, as we know he is Half Kneazle (and thus a half blood) and unusually smart. >> I love this idea, but how would Crookshanks have been in Book 2? From ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com Mon Jul 5 22:01:16 2004 From: ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com (A.J.) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 22:01:16 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry and Hermione Foreshadowing in PoA movie? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104471 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Big D" wrote: > However, I'm almost positive > that the birds you mentioned were actually bats. > Thanks to JKR's comment, we have this merging of possible foreshadowed canon with movie discussion. I can say here that they were birds, but explaining why should probably be for discussion of the film, not this group. As far as the thread leading into this went, I will say that R/Hr seemed supremely alluded to in the film. aj From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Jul 5 22:15:01 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 22:15:01 -0000 Subject: Harry's special power, which leads to Dumbledore as the Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: <20040703222729.6423.qmail@web25106.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104472 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Hans Andr?a wrote: Hans in Holland: > Every now and then I come across a wonderful post which moves me so > much smoke gets in my eyes. > > Jen's was one of them. What she has said about Harry here is so to the > point! She really has summed it all up for me! Harry does have a > special power and it's not the power which he accidentally received from > Voldemort. > I do take issue with one point Jen makes: >>Many times in interviews, > JKR or others talk about how Harry is every-boy, and that is why he's so > appealing. He's smart but not brilliant, makes many mistakes, and seems > special only in his ability to fly and aptitude for DADA. ***In spite of > this,*** I tend toward the first explanation, that Harry was indeed born > with an innate power to vanquish the Dark Lord, whether he chooses to > manifest it or not.<< Geoff: There is surely a distinct opposition of ideas here. Harry cannot have a special power and be Everyman at the same time. I have said way back in previous posts that, as a representative Everyman, Harry echoes the progress of a Christian through life. We aspire to be special in that we follow the will of God for our own life but usually manage to mess up along the way - as does Harry. He is impetuous, unobservant, he misunderstands what should be done - don't we all? For those of us who are Christians, I believe that we /have/ chosen to follow God. We /do/ have a special power, that of the Holy Spirit working through our lives, if we discover it and take it to ourselves and then allow it to shape our outlook and attitude to those around us. It gives us, like Harry facing Voldemort, an innate power to vanquish the Devil, whether we choose to manifest it or not. Harry is only special in the way that some Christians are, in being used for a task which appears to be more high-profile. There is no difference in the eyes of God between, say, Mother Teresa and St.Paul and a person spending their time caring for Alzheimer's sufferers or working with the homeless and helpless in a big city. From barbara_mbowen at yahoo.com Mon Jul 5 22:27:26 2004 From: barbara_mbowen at yahoo.com (barbara_mbowen) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 22:27:26 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104473 From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 5 22:28:53 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 22:28:53 -0000 Subject: Language in OOTP less Americanized? In-Reply-To: <044b01c462c3$3a479110$8e2f8c45@mynewputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104474 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Marny Helfrich" wrote: > Hello! > > You all have inspired me to reread OoTP and although I am only a few > chapters in (at the ministry of magic), I'm reminded of something I > noticed the first time and I wonder what you know about it. > > The language in this book (and I have the scholastic edition that > was available the first night, yes I went to the bookstore at > midnight) seems less "Americanized" that in the others. Just in > what I have re-read today I have noticed "hosepipe," Ron calling > Harry "mate," and a reference to Harry's "fringe" (bangs). > > I wonder if they were in such a hurry to get the book out that they > didn't take the time to change everything? > > Apologies if this is a FAQ, > > Marny Asian_lovr2: While I can't deny that being 'in such a hurry' didn't come into play, I think it is more likely that they realized after four books the readers were become more sophisticated and more familar with British terms and expressions. Plus, there have actually been complaints since the very beginning that the USA publisher was mucking up the story by making too many changes. So, the lack of excessive 'translation' is a combination of things, the greatest of which, I feel, is that it isn't needed any longer. There are a few that could have cause some problems like Fred or George saying he 'kept his peaker up' which was translated as 'kept his spirit up' (OotP). In the UK 'peaker' means 'heart' which implies good spirits or good mood. If they had left the orignal word in the book, as far as I'm concerned, the worst that would have happened is alot of grade school kids would have giggled and snickered. Although, I have to wonder if kids today would even recognise the alternate slighly naughty meaning of that word. For those here who don't know, it refers to a very private part of the male anatomy. I believe one of the nicer equivalent slang terms in the UK would be 'willy'. Here is one I discovered the other day from Chamber of Secrets. Near the beginning when Dobby and Harry are talking in Harry's bedroom, Dobby says something that Harry doesn't understand, and the narrative said that Harry was 'at sea'. In the USA version it says he was 'lost' meaning he was clueless. 'At sea' might be a somewhat obscure reference, but I think most moderately intelligent people would have figured it out from the context. Back to your point; I think it is a combination of a reduced need to translate, and a desire on the part of the USA readers not to have every little word or phrase changed. For what it's worth. Steve/asian_lovr2 (who is frequently 'at sea') From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 5 22:36:04 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 22:36:04 -0000 Subject: Who vs whom?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104475 Neri wrote: > Talking about dark creatures, who's best for fighting Nagini? Carol: Maybe that's where Harry's skill with Parseltongue will serve a further plot purpose. I can't see anyone else but Harry destroying Nagini--certainly not Hagrid, who would consider her an interestin' creature who only need a little loving care. (BTW, I really like the suggestion someone made about Hagrid fighting Macnair, maybe with a little help from Buckbeak.) Carol From heretherebedragons at gmail.com Mon Jul 5 22:37:17 2004 From: heretherebedragons at gmail.com (hebridean_black_dragn) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 22:37:17 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 22 - St. Mungo's Hospital In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104476 Hee! Replying to my own message. Hardly surprising, though, since the reason I chose this chapter to summarize was the fact that it was one of the most emotionally trying chapters in the book for me . . . as you'll soon see. I'd like to address the questions: 1. "Do the adults (and Moody in particular) really care about Harry as a person, or do they mostly see him as a pawn in the fight against Voldemort?" and 2. "To what degree is Harry receiving (or *not* receiving) support from the adults in his life?" My answers are 1) they sure don't seem to care about him in this scene; and 2) not a whole heck of a lot. While I was mostly disappointed with Moody, I also think that a great many of the adults in Harry's life "dropped out" on him in OoP. While I *was* disturbed by Harry's behaviour in OoP, in some ways it's hard for me to fault him too much, as he's going through some serious stuff in this book without a whole lot of support from the adults in his life. I think the eavesdropped conversation at the end of this chapter is a good illstration of this. In reading OoP, the bedside conversation quoted in the summary was the single most emotional moment in the book for me (actually my most emotional moment in the entire series). On the surface, perhaps, it doesn't sound so bad. They don't really say anything awful about Harry. But it's not so much *what* was said as the *way* it was said. When I read that, I was really struck with the feeling that they talk about Harry as he if were a stranger, not a person that they know and about whom they care. When Moody calls him "the Potter kid," it sounded so *cold* to me, and I felt Moody was speaking about Harry merely as an aspect of Moody's job as an auror. Moody sees Harry as something to be "dealt" with, rather than seeing him as a person. And it seemed clear to me that even if Moody does see Harry as a "person," there's no affection there for Harry. Now, I realise that Moody and Harry haven't really spent much time together to form a relationship, and perhaps this sort of attitude is better for an Auror - to not get involved with people emotionally. Okay, okay, this may be true, but it just really hurt me to hear him talk about Harry like that, and to know that Harry was hearing it, too. I was also less than thrilled with Molly, who doesn't come to his defense when Moody says they *all* know there's something funny about Harry. In fact, her response almost makes me think that she agrees, but that since Dumbledore was worried about Harry, then perhaps *that* mitigates Harry's "funny-ness" somehow. In any case, this scene really disturbed me. I was uncomfortable with the tone of the discussion about Harry, and I also had a lot of anger and sadness that Harry had to hear them talking about him in this way. Sure, they didn't know he was listening, but that doesn't make me feel any better about what they said. I actually had to put the book down after reading this so I could have a good cry about how DAMNED UNFAIR it was of all of them to treat Harry this way, when he'd never done anything to bring this upon himself. I was really angry and hurt on Harry's behalf. This was just one of several scenes when I felt the adults in Harry's life showed that they don't care about him (at least, not as much as I'd like to see), and that they really didn't offer him the support they could have. I think that, while Harry did make some huge mistakes in the book (leading, of course, to huge consequences), a huge chunk of the blame must lie with the adults in his life who just don't quite know how to give Harry the help that he needs when he needs it. Wendy From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 5 23:19:07 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 23:19:07 -0000 Subject: GoF Reduction Discussion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104477 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rzl46" wrote: > I was thinking last night about Goblet of Fire and its upcoming > movie. I'll apologize if this is deemed off topic, but I don't think > it will be. We were allowed to discuss the PoA movie here for a few > days, and I think most of us would agree that there is some > significance to what scenes from the novels are included in the > movies. How much significance is to be debated. But we have all > wondered why JKR insisted that, for instance, James not be included > in the opening shots of PS/SS. So, my proposal is this: if we, as a > group, can reduce GoF to its most essential scenes--the ones that > must be shown to tell the story--MAYBE we will be better able to > appreciate the extras that are thrown into the movie. And maybe > we'll have more fun reading significance into those bonus scenes. If > they are going to present GoF as one movie, they'll have a lot of > cutting to do. Obviously the graveyard scene will be included. The > Triwizard tournament will have to be included, but I'm not sure all > of the tasks will be in there--personally I'm voting for the lake > task to be cut. What else? > > MaggieB--who really thinks this could be an interesting discussion if > people will give it a shot Carol: I hope the second task *isn't* cut. First, it would make the golden eggs pointless. Second, it would eliminate part of the cooperation between Cedric and Harry and make Cedric's death less poignant. Third, we wouldn't see poor Percy publicly showing his concern and affection for Ron, the real Percy showing through, IMO. What can we cut instead? Most of the Quidditch World Cup scene (though of course we have to have Winky and the Dark Mark), the Hogwarts Express, most of the Cho Chan nonsense (sorry--don't like the girl), as much as possible of SPEW, the weighing of the wands, even Rita Skeeter. We already know from articles posted on the Internet that the Dursleys will be cut. IMO, they MUST keep the Dark Mark, the Goblet of Fire ceremony, all three tasks, the graveyard scene, and the transformation/confession of Barty Jr. They SHOULD keep the introduction to the Pensieve, the Unforgiveable Curses, the return of Padfoot, the madness of Mr. Crouch, and Dumbledore sending Snape off on an unknown dangerous mission. I *hope* they keep Fred and George growing beards after tehy cross the age line, Draco the bouncing ferret, and the Yule Ball sequence. Anything and everything else is probably expendable. I'm sure not everyone will agree. Okay, no one will agree on all points. But no eliminating the second task, even if that would spare us exposure to Dobby the House Elf. Besides, it will be fun to see Harry fighting off the grindylows and silently arguing with the merpeople and Viktor Krum half-transformed into a shark. And the second task demonstrates Harry's hero complex, which will be all important in OoP. Carol From barbara_mbowen at yahoo.com Mon Jul 5 23:19:54 2004 From: barbara_mbowen at yahoo.com (barbara_mbowen) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 23:19:54 -0000 Subject: CoS vs. Dark Mark and animals as signifiers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104478 Sorry about that blank post...what I meant to say was: Marmelade Mom, whose gears are grinding around all this imagry: Yes, it has to be their souls are connected and involve the founders of the school. And so it involves Dumbledore in that he must be the Gryffindor's descendent. On his door (CoS, p ) is a knocker in the shape of a griffin. Griffin + door. I can't be the first (or second or third even) to notice this. But what's a griffin? It's a lion with the head of an eagle, sometimes with wings. A lot like Buckbeak, who is a horse with the head and wings of an eagle. Dumbledore is already connected to a bird: Fawkes, a phoenix. So, where is the lion? Goofy as it sounds, the lion is the king of the jungle. What is its offspring, if its offspring has the head of a bird? A half-blood prince? Animal imagry is everywhere, as well as the things which are half one thing and half another. The snake is Slytherin's sign, and a real snake, a basilisk, existed in the Chamber of Secrets. Where is that boa constrictor Harry set loose in book one? Did it make its way to Brazil, or to the service of the Dark Lord? Would it be loyal to Voldemorte or turn to the one who set it free? Nagini never hurt Harry, and Nagini can move fast. Then there's a half kneazle, Crookshanks, who loved Sirius. (and, point to the Sirius defenders, can tell false from true...) There are all the half bloods running around. Half Giant Hagrid. The thestrals who are reptilean, carniverous horses. Half dragon???? The animagi who are half animals. All the people associated/ represented by animals: Harry/stag, Dumbledore/phoenix/griffin?, Sirius/dog, Lupin/wolf, McGonagal/cat, Dudley/pig, Voldemort/snake, Harry/snake... And Harry, whose soul is connected to Voldemort's. I suspect that if that scar isn't eradicated, Harry will die when Voldemort does, and the analogy I would make is with Siamese twins being separated. Removing the scar might just kill Harry, but it would be his only chance.... And would it kill Voldemort for Harry to lose it? i keep thinking of a story by Nathaniel Hawthorne about a woman who is so beautiful her only flaw is a tiny red birthmark on her cheek. Her husband becomes obsessed with eradicating it and making her "perfect". He succeeds and kills her in the process. This was Hawthorne being Puritanical and lugubrious, but here's a twist on that: what if that scar is all that holds Voldy to life? If I'm not the first (and I'm probably not), I'd love to be pointed to discussion of this. Marmelade Mom From snow15145 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 5 23:22:14 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 23:22:14 -0000 Subject: CoS versus the Dark Mark (was Re: Sirius,Snape,Lily,CoS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104479 Arya snipped: I'm getting the feeling more and more that Harry and Voldemort are connected > through their souls and that the thing that made Tom Riddle the Dark Lord is also > what enables Harry to be The One. And I also think it must go all the way back to > Slytherin, and by necessity then, Gryffindor, too. Snow: What if only the Tom Riddle portion of Voldemort was transferred to Harry that night at Godric's Hollow? Tom Riddle a descendent of Salizar Slytherin had the ability to speak parcel tongue not Voldemort. Harry is able to speak parcel tongue because of Tom Riddle's legacy and now it has been shared with Harry through this connection. Harry thinks when he hears the name of Tom Riddle that it is familiar like a long lost friend. Harry isn't tied to Voldemort just to Tom Riddle who is in turn connected with Voldemort. The Voldemort portion of the body that night that had been protected from physical death is what appears as Vapormort. So it is like three separate entities that are all connected. The only time Tom/Voldemort speaks of his muggle father is in the Chamber of Secrets (when he is "Tom" proclaiming his new name) and at Voldemorts rebirthing party after he uses Harry's blood as an ingredient to be reborn. Amazing that the first thing that Voldemort speaks of after his rebirth is about his hated muggle father; and realizes he has done so. (almost like talking to yourself or in Voldemorts case being reacquainted with his Tom side) The connection between Voldemort and Harry has become much stronger since Voldemort's rebirth. I think that is why Dumbledore called Voldemort Tom in the Ministry of Magic. Dumbledore was attempting to reach the dormant Tom Riddle that lies inside Voldemort. Therefore there may very well be three people involved in the prophecy: Harry, Tom and Voldemort. " And either (Harry or Tom) must die at the hand of the other (Voldemort) for neither (Harry or Tom) can live while the other (Voldemort) survives " From catlady at wicca.net Mon Jul 5 23:39:40 2004 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 23:39:40 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 22 - St. Mungo's Hospital In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104480 Wendy wrote the chapter summary in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/104467 : << A flash of flame appears, and a single golden feather floats onto the floor: a warning from Fawkes that Umbridge is coming. >> Fawkes gave several golden feathers as warnings in OoP; I wonder if any of them will become wand cores. << Moody growls, "'Course he's worried . . . The boy's seeing things from inside You-Know-Who's snake. Obviously, Potter doesn't realise what that means, but if You-Know-Who's possessing him - " Harry removes the extendable ear, feeling his heart race and his face flush. The others stare at him, looking fearful. >> And demonstrating the proverb that eavesdroppers will hear things they don't like. << What are the implications of portrait people being able to move freely within their own portraits? Can each person appear in only one at any given time? In what other ways could this be useful to Harry, or the Order; conversely, how could this prove dangerous? >> Apparently they can appear in only one portrait at a time, because they are absent from the portrait Harry is watching at times we know that they are in other portraits. I wonder if painted people like The Fat Lady and Sir Cadogan and the mermaid in the prefects' bath are portraits of actual people or are they fictional people created by painters who were illustrating fictional stories. If the latter, they would be animated with some other spell than the one that absorbs the living model's personality from having bits of their body tissues mixed in the paint. It doesn't seem right to me that there would only be one painted Don Quixote (for example) who moves among all the different paintings of the man from La Mancha in all their different painting styles. I have no idea whether it would be possible for DD to transfigure Harry into paint so that one of the protrait people could grab him by the hand, pull him into the painting, and lead him to another painting in another place. Where somehow someone would have to de-transfigure him. << Do the images in the chocolate frog cards have this ability as well? >> IMHO it seems unlikely that mass-produced printed pictures on trading cards would have more power than mass-produced printed photographs (e.g. in the Daily Prophet) and even than the only print made from the original negative. OTOH they do leave their cards while Harry is looking at them. << What is the overall function of the silver instrument? And what, in this instance, did Dumbledore learn from it? What is the meaning of his question, "in essence divided?" >> This is probably the main question of the whole volume, and maybe all of us will be surprised when we find out. One theory is that he was asking whether Harry and Voldemort were still separate beings or had merged. Another is that he was asking whether Tom Riddle and Voldemort were still separate beings or had merged. It would be symmetrical if another theory suggested he was asking whether TMR and HP were separate beings. << Can Phineas, obviously a Slytherin and member of the Black family, be trusted? >> I thought he was forced by some kind of dead headmasters' oath to be trustworthy to the living Headmaster of Hogwarts. Of course, that means that someday a portrait of Dumbledore will have to assist in the evil schemes of some evil Headmaster. In order for live-Phineas to have been the most hated Headmaster that Hogwarts ever had, he must have been much worse than charmingly sassy portrait-Phineas. Is there another portrait of Phineas in Malfoy Manor? Is it possible that Lucius doesn't know that such a portrait is DD's ally? << What caused Harry to have that urge to kill Dumbledore? Was it connected to the visions? Was he being possessed by Voldemort? >> I thought there was no doubt that it was connected to the visions: due to the scar link, when Harry looked at DD, DD drifted into LV's thoughts, stirring up violent hatred in LV's mind, which Harry felt through the scar link. The visions are Harry seeing what LV sees, and this is LV seeing what Harry sees, and this is not the only example of Harry feeling what LV feels. However, this is not *possession* because LV was not *controlling* Harry or Harry's body . << How might Fred's comment to Sirius ("I don't see you risking your neck!") have affected Sirius? Might this have contributed to Sirius' attitude and actions later in the book? >> Sirius was very good in that conversation. He controlled himself and calmly explained to Fred that there are things worth dying for, and Arthur had taken the risk for something he believed to be worth it. I think he completely forgot Fred's remark while he was enjoying his holiday guests, so it did not contribute to goading him to get out of the house (as Snape's taunts did). However, I think Harry should remember what Sirius said: there are things worth dying for, Sirius accepted that risk, Sirius died for something he thought was worth it (rescuing Harry). Harry should dream (normal dream, not a vision) of Sirius telling him: "Harry, it was worth it." << Why are the adults so reluctant to discuss any of the details of this situation with the children? >> By 'any of the details', you mean telling them that Harry had been seeing from inside LV's snake? Through the scar connection? Possibly only DD knew that it was because of the scar connection -- he seems to like to keep even the adults mystified. DD must have instructed the members of the Order not to tell Harry anything about his mind link with LV so that LV could not find out that the Order knew about it by looking in Harry's mind -- why did he later decide it was safe to have Snape tell Harry about it? << Do the adults (and Moody in particular) really care about Harry as a person, or do they mostly see him as a pawn in the fight against Voldemort? >> Well, you answered this better than I could. Still, I can't think that either Molly or Sirius thinks of Harry as a pawn. Molly seems not to think of him even as taking part in the war against LV, but only as an endangered child to be protected (and to be kept ignorant as part of over-protectiveness). Even when she said DD has expected something like this might happen, I felt she was speaking like a sick child's mother quoting the physician. People can argue whether Sirius cares about Harry as a person, or as a legacy from James, or as James returned, or as an equally immature playmate, but surely Sirius is opposed to treating Harry as a pawn. There's a theory out there that Good!Dumbledore, possibly via Good!Lupin, offed Sirius because Sirius would not allow Harry to be sent to his death as a sacrificial lamb for the defeat of LV (if Sirius found out that that was the plan.) From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 5 23:50:05 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 23:50:05 -0000 Subject: Harry's potions O.W.L - Outstanding-NOT. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104481 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" > asian_lovr2: > > I know I'm out numbered on this, but I just don't see how Harry could > possibly get an 'Outstanding' on his OWL. Even when we factor in - > > - Snape's students generally achieve a 'High Pass' in their test > (They are generally above average). > > - Snape wasn't in the room while the tests were administered, and > therefore, wasn't able to harrass and distract Harry (or Neville). > > - Harry is smarter than he thinks. > > By Harry's own admission, the Potions tests were difficult, and he > doesn't think he did well, but thinks he may have scraped by with a > pass (Acceptable). > > Pg 631 UK HB Ed- > > "...Potions on Monday... which he was sure would be the downfall of is > ambition to become an Auror. Sure enough, he found the written paper > difficult,..." > > pg 631-632 UK HB Ed- > "When Professor Marchbanks said, 'Step away from your cauldrons, > please, the excamination is over,' Harry corked his sample flask > feeling that he might not have achieved a good grade but he had, with > luck, avoided a fail." > > Using American Muggle grades as an illustration, Harry thinks he may > have scraped by with a low 'C'. I think Harry certainly did better > than he thinks he did, but that would NOT be very likely to raise him > much above a basic 'B'. To leap from 'avoided a fail' to the highest > possible 'Outstanding' grade is just too great a leap to make. Harry > is generally no better than OK at potions, making adjustments for > Snape's persecution of him, and he is on par with the rest of the > typical students. > > His potion, in the examples we see in the books, are usually very > close to what they are suppose to be (usually based on color), and not > as bad as the worst in the class, but neither as good as the best. > Conclusion; he's in the middle, a typical average potions maker. > > To say Harry got an 'Outstanding' is roughly the same as saying that > you believe that nearly every student in the class got an > 'Outstanding', and I just don't see that happening. > > Snape's student are above average in Potions making skills, that puts > them at a 'B' or 'Exceeds Expectation', not at an 'A' or 'Outstanding'. > > Others put forth the logic that Harry needs Potions to be an Auror, > and the story needs Snape as an antagonist, but it doesn't take much > imagination to find ways around those things. > > First, McGonagall didn't say that Potions was an absolute must to be > an Auror, she suggested the most common classes and subjects that an > Auror would typically need. > > I imagine that a student with overal outstanding ability, especially > in DADA, demonstrated skill, and an 'Outstanding' OWL and NEWT in > Herbology would be just a valuable, functional, and knowledgable as > someone with a basic 'B' grade overal and a basic 'B' grade in > Potions. Potions, afteral, is just applied Herbology (or very close to > it). Note that the primary textbook for Potions is not a potions book > but '1000 HERBS and Fungi'. > > Certainly, we all /want/ Harry to get an 'Outstanding' but I think it > is just too great a leap for it to happen. > > Steve/asian_lovr2 Carol: Just two minor points here. First, we've very often seen Harry wrong, most notably when he "knows" that he's going to die. He's probably completely wrong about the difficulty of those tests. And second, although one of the texts for Potions is "1,000 Mgical Herbs and Fungi," Potions is (IMO) an exact science more like chemistry than "applied potions," About half of the potion ingredients are animal rather than vegetable (lace wing flies, for example). And one of the first questions Snape asks Harry relates to bezoars, which come from the stomachs of goats. JKR has said that Muggles can't concoct potions even if they acquire the ingredients and follow the steps. They require great magical ability (which is why Snape is so good at them). An important part of Potions is antidotes--"putting a stopper in death" (forgive me if that's the movie version--the point is the same regardless of the wording). I do definitely *want* Harry to be in Snape's NEWT potions class, but I also believe that it's important to his future career and to the plot for him to be there, so I admit that mya argument is not wholly objective. Nevertheless, I wouldn't rate Harry's (or the limited omniscient narrator's) assessment of his chances as a solid indication of his real success. (It's also possible, of course, that McGonagall or Dumbledore will step in and Snape will have to accept Harry in the class whether he wants him there or not. Or McGonagall will teach him herself, but since she's not an expert in Potions, I don't see how that would work.) One way or another, I think we'll see Harry in NEWT Potions with Snape as his teacher. And I think we'll see a subtle change in their relationship--less overt hostility, maybe even a grudging respect on both sides and they come to understand each other's importance in the battle against LV. Or rather, as Harry comes to understand and acknowledge Snape's importance, Snape will realize at last that Harry is not James and vent his hostility elsewhere. Or so I hope. Carol From mikefeemster at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 00:08:52 2004 From: mikefeemster at yahoo.com (mikefeemster) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 00:08:52 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 22 - St. Mungo's Hospital In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104482 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hebridean_black_dragn" wrote: > Chapter Twenty-Two Summary - St. Mungo's Hospital for Magical Maladies and Injuries While they wait for news, Harry feels guilty about the attack, and > wonders if he was the one who'd attacked Arthur, especially in light > of the urge he'd had afterward to attack Dumbledore. Finally, word > comes from Molly (via Fawkes) that Arthur is still alive, and that she is on her way to St. Mungo's, and would send more news as soon as she could. They sit through the rest of the long night together, until Molly arrives at 10 past five in the morning. Mike here, One of the things that struck me in this chapter was the silence as the children and Sirius waited. Looking back I am amazed at JKR's ability to draw us in as if we are actually there feeling the silence and the somberness of the situation. This is a rather eerie chapter. From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 00:17:38 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 00:17:38 -0000 Subject: CoS versus the Dark Mark (was Re: Sirius,Snape,Lily,CoS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104483 Snow: What if only the Tom Riddle portion of Voldemort was transferred to Harry that night at Godric's Hollow? Tom Riddle a descendent of Salizar Slytherin had the ability to speak parcel tongue not Voldemort. Harry is able to speak parcel tongue because of Tom Riddle's legacy and now it has been shared with Harry through this connection. Harry thinks when he hears the name of Tom Riddle that it is familiar like a long lost friend. Harry isn't tied to Voldemort just to Tom Riddle who is in turn connected with Voldemort. The Voldemort portion of the body that night that had been protected from physical death is what appears as Vapormort. So it is like three separate entities that are all connected. Therefore there may very well be three people involved in the prophecy: Harry, Tom and Voldemort. " And either (Harry or Tom) must die at the hand of the other (Voldemort) for neither (Harry or Tom) can live while the other (Voldemort) survives " vmonte responds: Yes, I've also talked about the same thing (most recently in post # 104055). I also found out that there is another post on the same theory by someone else, which I cannot find (it's about a year old). I like your interpretation of the prophecy. I agree with another post who thinks that there is going to be a moment in time where Harry will decide that he must die in order to defeat Voldemort (I think he will somehow be reborn though). Is it possible that Tom Riddle will sacrifice himself to save Harry? vivian From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 00:25:17 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 00:25:17 -0000 Subject: GoF Reduction Discussion In-Reply-To: <008101c45d3f$f5dd4b60$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104484 Sherry Gomes wrote: > So, I guess I stand corrected about losing the second task. I'm > glad, because I'd like to see it. > > It makes me wonder, though, because I was convinced that the second > task could go, why is it being included? Carol: I've already mentioned Harry's hero complex and several other reasons why I think it should stay in and I'm glad to know that Kloves and Newell agree that it has to be there. Another reason relates to the Barty Crouch Sr. subplot. He's too ill to judge the second task and Percy takes his place. (And then poor Percy falls under suspicion and doesn't get to judge the third task, a turn of events that has a bearing on his less admirable behavior in Book/Film 5.) The viewer needs to *see* the absence of Crouch Sr. to understand how unlikely it is that he'd be prowling around Snape's office in the Marauder's Map scene (a key red herring) and to comprehend the Imperius-caused madness that sets up his murder by his even madder son. All these interrelated elements are crucial to the Crouch!Moody/ Unforgiveable Curses portion of the main plot. For that reason, it would be a serious mistake if either Steve Kloves or Mike Newell chose to eliminate them and JKR will no doubt make that known. IMO, they can't do what Cuaron did to PoA and strip away or alter key scenes. The parts have to fit together, red herrings and all, even if it takes three and a half hours to do it. Carol From snow15145 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 00:26:16 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 00:26:16 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 22 - St. Mungo's Hospital In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104485 CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 22 - St. Mungo's Hospital Snipped: Phineas agrees to help, but says he won't be surprised if Sirius had destroyed his painting. At this point, Harry remembers where he'd heard that voice before - from the painting in his bedroom at Grimmauld Place. Dumbledore assures Phineas that the painting has not been destroyed, and asks him to tell Sirius that Arthur Weasley has been injured, and that his wife, children, and Harry Potter would be arriving shortly. What I would like to know is, when Phineas was subordinate and another portrait asked Dumbledore if she could persuade him, raising an unusually thick wand that looked not unlike a birch rod, can another ghost or portrait cause harm to one another? It appears they can, if so what harm? Peeves is afraid of the Bloody Baron why? How can the Bloody Baron hurt Peeves any more than the portrait of the woman persuade Phineas, through her suggestion of harm with the birch rod, to do as Dumbledore asks him? From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Tue Jul 6 00:28:29 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 00:28:29 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 22 - St. Mungo's Hospital In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104486 > Wendy wrote the chapter summary : << What is the overall function of the silver instrument? And what, > in this instance, did Dumbledore learn from it? What is the meaning > of his question, "in essence divided?" >> "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > This is probably the main question of the whole volume, Arya now: Totally, totally agrees. *This* is the biggest, maddening, lingering and heart-of-it-all question in the book. << What caused Harry to have that urge to kill Dumbledore? Was it > connected to the visions? Was he being possessed by Voldemort? >> "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > I thought there was no doubt that it was connected to the visions: > due to the scar link, when Harry looked at DD, DD drifted into LV's > thoughts, stirring up violent hatred in LV's mind, which Harry felt > through the scar link. The visions are Harry seeing what LV sees, and > this is LV seeing what Harry sees, and this is not the only example of > Harry feeling what LV feels. However, this is not *possession* because > LV was not *controlling* Harry or Harry's body . Arya now: Hmm, but Voldemort's "seeing" and subsequent felt hatred did make Harry feel like he wanted to strike out at Dumbledore. It *did* ellicit a desire for action within Harry. I think it's clear it was Voldemort's hatred that did this. So, can we also assume that when Harry was seeing Arthur Weasley being injured by Voldegini, that Voldemort might have "felt" a bit of Harry's desire for mercy by way of his "love" of Mr. Weasley? Might, someday in the future, Harry see through Voldemort's eyes again as someone else whom he cares about is being hurt, feel love so strongly that the emotion does effect a moments pause by Voldemort? Or more? Will it come down to seeing if Harry can withstand the projected hate from Voldemort more than Voldemort can withstand Harry's projected heart? Actually, if we look at the times when Harry is looking at Dumbledore and the inner snake uncoils in Harry's stomach, might it also be that Harry, so starved for any attention from Dumbledore, had to feel a surge of affection for the headmaster in some way to "open" the portal that allowed Voldemort in? Just like, as Dumbledore says in GoF, Harry got glimpses into Voldemort's life when he'd felt particulary angry. But it's not anger, is it? Harry also feels happiness in OotP through his Vold-o- meter. So what is that emotion from Voldemort that opens it all up? Well, we laready knwo Harry is supposedly "Love" in this game, so that must mean that Voldemort is "Hate". Through hate, Voldemort can be fuelled to feel anger and rage at his minions failures and also joy at his enemies failures and news of successful schemes (releasing of prisoners from Azkaban). << How might Fred's comment to Sirius ("I don't see you risking your > neck!") have affected Sirius? Might this have contributed to Sirius' > attitude and actions later in the book? >> Arya now: Sirius doesn't react at all like we might think he would if this fact (Sirius not getting out and doing anything) was bothering him as much as we're all saying we think it was. (Confusing sentence, sorry.) Sirius is actually quite mature in response here. This fact makes me wonder what changes between now and a week or two later when Snape comes in to bait Sirius in the kitchen. Besides the fact it's Snape, of course, which is so obvious, it's almost screaming look at what it might be hiding. I keep coming back to those herbs that can induce hotheadedness, brashness, etc. I keep coming back to Molly and her abominable--hell-bitchy-- treatment of Sirius throughout the entire book. Something niggles in my mind that Molly, whether of her own volition, through ignorance, or through someone else's prodding,is the one to blame to Sirius's recklessness. Molly hadn't been at Grimmauld Place before xmas holiday--Sirius hadn't been eating her cooking. He might not have been under the influence of anything at that time. Maybe that's what changed by the time snape shows up. Maybe that's what makes Sirius increasingly more irritable through the month of August in the beginning of the book. Maybe Molly keep sending pies or such to Sirius after the holiday or even just before the time OWLs were given. There's something so offensive to me in Molly's behavior in this book. It starts with her tactless and scathing remarks to and about Sirius and then continues with her smothering attitude towards not only her own children by Harry. To me, Molly came out looking awful in this book. I wonder if Harry will realize that if Molly hadn't been trying to be an overbearing, smothering witch, that Sirius then wouldn't have had to sneak the mirrir gift to Harry. I wonder if Harry will realise that if Molly hadn't been trying to hurry him away from Sirius as they left #12 and shoo him out the door that Sirius might then have told Harry more about the mirror. I wonder if Harry will realise that by shooing him along and away from Sirius when Harry had been distracted from his desire to tell Sirius to be careful or, maybe, even to somehow express something more that a "see you later". Okay, yeah, i'm a bit off and hijacking this question but, well, when I see how Sirius acted with Fred's possibly-provoking comment, it makes me think maybe Sirius' problems and recklessness were not entirely his fault or his own. Arya From aldhelm at earthlink.net Tue Jul 6 00:40:11 2004 From: aldhelm at earthlink.net (carin_in_oh) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 00:40:11 -0000 Subject: Acronyms/The Prophecy/Ron'sFirstWand/Crookshanks as HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104487 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: ... > Suppose The Other is a third party. 'Either (The Dark Lord or the One > or both) must die at the hand of The Other for neither (The Dark Lord > or the One) can live while The Other survives'. To me the strongest argument against the Third Party argument is the exchange between Harry and Dumbledore that concludes the discussion of the prophecy (OotP Scholastic hb, p. 844): Harry: "So does that mean that... that one of us has got to kill the other one...in the end? Dumbledore: "Yes." When Harry asks that straightforward a question and Dumbledore gives that straightforward an answer, I think we've got to take it at face value. We know that DD is a very important conduit of authorial information. And there's no way in the logic or context of what Harry has just heard that he could be introducing some mysterious, unnamed "other" into the conversation when he says "one of us has got to kill the other one." Harry has got to mean simply Voldemort or Me. So even if there is a fair bit of ambiguity in the prophecy itself, this exchange narrows the ambiguity substantially. Carin From snow15145 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 01:01:23 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 01:01:23 -0000 Subject: CoS versus the Dark Mark (was Re: Sirius,Snape,Lily,CoS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104488 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > Snow: > > What if only the Tom Riddle portion of Voldemort was transferred to > Harry that night at Godric's Hollow? Tom Riddle a descendent of > Salizar Slytherin had the ability to speak parcel tongue not > Voldemort. Harry is able to speak parcel tongue because of Tom > Riddle's legacy and now it has been shared with Harry through this > connection. Harry thinks when he hears the name of Tom Riddle that it > is familiar like a long lost friend. Harry isn't tied to Voldemort > just to Tom Riddle who is in turn connected with Voldemort. The > Voldemort portion of the body that night that had been protected from > physical death is what appears as Vapormort. So it is like three > separate entities that are all connected. > Therefore there may very well be three people involved in the > prophecy: Harry, Tom and Voldemort. > > " And either (Harry or Tom) must die at the hand of the other > (Voldemort) for neither (Harry or Tom) can live while the other > (Voldemort) survives " > > > vmonte responds: > > Yes, I've also talked about the same thing (most recently in post # > 104055). I also found out that there is another post on the same > theory by someone else, which I cannot find (it's about a year old). > > I like your interpretation of the prophecy. I agree with another > post who thinks that there is going to be a moment in time where > Harry will decide that he must die in order to defeat Voldemort (I > think he will somehow be reborn though). > > Is it possible that Tom Riddle will sacrifice himself to save Harry? > > vivian Snow again: I read your post, and yes very much of the same idea with an added touch of Ginny. The Ginny factor could be interesting! Ginny may be the source that allows Harry to understand what actually happened that night at Godric's Hollow. Ginny may provide a lot of insite into what Tom/Voldemort revealed to her. From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Tue Jul 6 01:02:57 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 01:02:57 -0000 Subject: GoF Reduction Discussion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104489 "justcarol67" wrote: > IMO, they can't do what Cuaron did to PoA and strip away or alter key > scenes. The parts have to fit together, red herrings and all, even if > it takes three and a half hours to do it. --------- But Cuaron--or should we more accurately say, Kloves, didn't "strip away" and "alter key scenes" as much as he *restructered the entire storyline*. The things that we hardcore readers knew to be missing from PoA, were not necessarily missing from what was a slimed down and more linear storyline. I believe I read Mike Newell as saying that he viewed this film as a mystery thriller. If they start at the QWC, you'd think they would just follow the book script from there. But there's soooo many scenes!!! I can't see how they will be able to fit in so many scenes if we follow the book's progression. Some scenes will need to double up and serve as the setting for several plot points. (Like the one Divination class where Hermione huffs off and Harry then receives Trewlawney's second prophecy all in one scene--two events that, in the book, happen in March and then June, respectively.) Actually, if you look closely at PoA, the movie, you'll see that there is very little in the film to suggest the passge of an entire school year. There's summer, to Sept and then winter and spring, but the film avoid's suggesting the year is over to make it perhaps not seem like so much was glossed over. There is no end of the year feast, no boarding the train, no exams--nothing. The who TT incident just occurs sometime after spring and then Harry gets the Firebolt and rides until his face falls off. The End. But GoF, IMO, is so very different. It has so many event that are bound to a specific date: school year begins on Sept , Tournament opens at Halloween, First task on Nov 22 (IIRC), Yule Ball at xmas, Second Task on Feb ??, Third Task in June (on the summer solstice). These things are not movable or able to be combined and I would think the rest must be bent around this structure. Arya (who forgot the point by now) From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Tue Jul 6 01:10:48 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 01:10:48 -0000 Subject: The Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104491 > wrote: > > Suppose The Other is a third party. 'Either (The Dark Lord or the One > > or both) must die at the hand of The Other for neither (The Dark Lord > > or the One) can live while The Other survives'. ------------------ > "carin_in_oh" wrote: > To me the strongest argument against the Third Party argument is the exchange > between Harry and Dumbledore that concludes the discussion of the prophecy (OotP > Scholastic hb, p. 844): > > Harry: "So does that mean that... that one of us has got to kill the other one...in the > end? > > Dumbledore: "Yes." > > When Harry asks that straightforward a question and Dumbledore gives that > straightforward an answer, I think we've got to take it at face value. We know that DD is > a very important conduit of authorial information. And there's no way in the logic or > context of what Harry has just heard that he could be introducing some mysterious, > unnamed "other" into the conversation when he says "one of us has got to kill the other > one." Harry has got to mean simply Voldemort or Me. So even if there is a fair bit of > ambiguity in the prophecy itself, this exchange narrows the ambiguity substantially. --------------- So perhaps that is just what Dumbledore believes. Do you not think that Harry will attenpt to comtemplate alternative meanings to the prophecy? Do you not think that Hermione, if and when she is told, will not dissect each and every word of that prophecy with a dictionary and thesaurous at hand just like we are? I think Harry will most certainly wish to find as many alternatives to the prophecy once he learns that his fate is limited only to that which can be in accoradance with the damn prophecy. Therefore, it matters not if Dumbledore thinks things can only be one way and it doesn't even matter if things are really are only one way--it matters which interpretations are *possibly* derived and plausible to Harry as he attempts to deal with it and prepare or....not. Unless there is a standard book of interpretting prophecy's that Dumbledore didn't mention to Harry, I think all possibilities are indeed "valid" if not for no other reason than, allowing Harry his interpretation gives him some semblance of choice in the matter. Arya From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 01:26:21 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 01:26:21 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104493 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Debra" wrote: > > GEO: No that was suppose to be the original title for CoS. > > Yes, but we had already been told that. And she's using a chapter she > has attempted to use before; I forget whether or not she tried to use > it in CS. But if this is the legitimate title of book six, and it > also was a tried-and-failed title of CS, which deals predominantly > with Tom Riddle, then it follows semi-logically that the half-blood > prince that may or may not make an appearance in book six is Tom > Riddle, the younger version of the "King", Lord Voldemort. (Actually, are sons of lords also known as princes? That might point us in a > different direction.) > > But how would Tom Riddle make another appearance? Perhaps in his > schoolboy days he created another preservation of himself, besides > the diary, that can be fetched from the Malfoy manor's ... secret > hiding place that I forget where it is located? Or perhaps we're > still on the wrong track. Or perhaps this isn't the title at all. But > it'd be great if you could all just bear with me for a second and > pretend it is so we can do what Potter fans do best, and theorize. :) > > ~Debra Since she says that the half-blood prince isn't Voldemort (who isn't a real lord, anyway), it probably follows that he isn't young Tom Riddle, either. (In any case, Diary!Tom is destroyed and it would be both difficult and anticlimactic to bring young Tom back now.) I've suggested elsewhere that the HBP could be Dumbledore, who as we know played an important role in CoS *and* has a soft spot for Muggles, but then Aberforth would have to be a half-blood prince, too, and things would get rather messy. Another possibility, brought up by someone on the OT or movie list (I forget which) is that the HBP could be Godric Gryffindor--from an era when princes were rather more common than they are today. We haven't seen any royalty among the modern wizards, only the self-appointed aristocracy of the purebloods and their self-named "lord." The sons of lords are definitely not called princes, though the term "prince of the blood" was sometimes applied to dukes and earls who could claim direct (legitimate) descent in the male line from an English king (e.g. Edward III, ancestor of both the Yorkists and the Lancastrians). I don't at the moment see how any of this fits the WW as JKR has presented it to us, but again, it could relate to Godric Gryffindor. It would make sense for GG to be a half-blood, which would explain his split with Salazar Slytherin and his refusal to go along with admitting only pureblood students to Hogwarts. That's all I can come up with at the moment. Carol, who is almost as "Siriusly" behind on posting as SSS but is making a valiant effort to catch up P.S. I highly recommend reading the Daily Prophet article on JKR's website to anyone who hasn't done so already. You might also want to check out the Rumours section to see her reaction to the Storge hoax. (Sorry I can't do the accent mark on this computer.) C. From snow15145 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 01:30:58 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 01:30:58 -0000 Subject: CoS versus the Dark Mark (was Re: Sirius,Snape,Lily,CoS) In-Reply-To: <00d001c22489$6c43fe30$76266750@takun> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104494 me (Fridwulfa): And something even more interesting about Ginny, she's indebted to Harry, he saved her life in CoS. So, we know have to characters who own their lives to Harry: wormtail (Voldemorts right hand) and Ginny. Interesting. Snow: I don't think it is so much about the life type debt that Ginny may owe Harry but her contributions of what she knows about her and Tom Riddle's conversations via the diary. Ginny may bring insight of facts that Tom Riddle is a separate entity from Voldemort at some point. Riddle and Voldemort are connected but how? Ginny may have that answer. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 01:39:57 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 01:39:57 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104495 Gina wrote: I still think Petunia has something to do with LV. Maybe she did know him or told something on Lily that she shouldn't in hopes of him hurting her. I do not really think LV is Dudley's father or anything, but it still gets me that Harry remembered Tom in a friendly manner. Was LV at some point a friend to someone before going bad? Does he HAVE a son that maybe Harry knew at some point - maybe there is another TR Jr. that lives in Little Whinging that went to school with Harry long ago and thus the Ministry comment about the situation in Little Whinging regarding other wizards living there??? Carol: Given what we know of Voldemort, it's very unlikely that he has a son or any connection with Little Whinging. I think Hary felt *as if* he knew Tom; he sensed a similarity and/or a connection to him, and surely Diary!Tom, once he realized who was writing in his diary, did his best to create the illusion of friendship. (Ginny also felt that she had found a trusted friend and confidant, though not someone whe had known before.) As for Petunia having something to do with LV, she certainly knew about him, and about Dementors, but there's no reason to suppose any connection between them. Presumably, she heard about them from "that awful boy" (James, if we take the simplest interpretation) and/or Lily. Maybe she didn't believe what she heard and didn't think her sister was in real danger until after Dumbledore told her what happened, as he must somehow have done. Mrs. Figg may have been the source or she may have received letters from DD that she keeps secret from Vernon ("Remember my last!") Someone on this list said that Vernon protests too much. I think Petunia does. IMO, she's not a witch and she can't be a Squib, but she knows more about the WW than most Muggles, and she's keeping that knowledge from Vernon as much as from Harry. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 01:52:48 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 01:52:48 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104496 > Steph: > What was the final decision in regards to Tom Riddle being the heir > to Slytherin? Could that be where the "prince" is coming from? > But, we also know VERY little about either side's family. It could > be Harry...through a technicality. I still don't know how everyone > knows about Halfblood Prince being the COS origional title. Can > someone point me in the right direction....I'd love to know more. > Stephanie Carol: I don't think there's any connection between the Heir of Slytherin and the HBP except that JKR first considered the title for CoS. She says straight out that the prince is neither Harry nor Voldemort. As for the "final decision" regarding the Heir, Dumbledore says that Tom Riddle/Voldemort is the last remaining "ancestor" (descendant) of Salazar Slytherin, which makes him the Heir as far as I can tell. Go to JK Rowling's official site http://www.jkrowling.com/ and read the Daily Prophet article and Rumours floppy disk. (While you're there, you might as well play around and see if you can collect articles for your scrapbook, but I can't discuss that here or the List Elves will delete my post.) If you can't figure it all out, go to the HP OT chatter list. (Note: the door they talk about is closed again, but you can still find out what little we know about the new book title by going to the main page of the site. Watch out for Peeves, who just knocked over my cup of pens *again*!) Carol, with apologies to the List Elves From ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 01:56:51 2004 From: ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com (A.J.) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 01:56:51 -0000 Subject: GoF Reduction Discussion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104497 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: If > > they are going to present GoF as one movie, they'll have a lot of > > cutting to do. Obviously the graveyard scene will be included. The > > Triwizard tournament will have to be included, but I'm not sure all > > of the tasks will be in there--personally I'm voting for the lake > > task to be cut. > Carol: > I hope the second task *isn't* cut. > What can we cut instead? Most of the Quidditch World Cup scene Actually, the Second Task is already being filmed; they did the maze and Harry with Cho previously; and they certainly are showing at least the Weasley's tent at the World Cup. Dan Radcliffe said the script was 'brilliant' and got the essentials. I'm wondering how they'll fit any class lessons in, but apparently all these major parts are still in. Just no Dursleys. Now I will sneak off and try not to make this too film related, justifying it as key to canon via what scenes aren't deleted... aj From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 02:14:53 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 02:14:53 -0000 Subject: Potions O.W.L - Pass vs High-Pass In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104498 Steve wrote: > I'm convinced of what Snape said, but at the same time, I can see a > degree of uncertainty in the general interpretation of his statements. So, before we go any further let's quote what Snape actually said as a reference point. > First paragraph, Snape says that he expect EVERYONE to pass. That is, > 'I expect you to scrape an 'Acceptable' in your OWL'. Implying that > for any student not to pass is extremely rare. > > The third paragraph, 'concentrate ...upon maintaining the high-pass > level'. Since a HUGE majority of students ARE going to pass, then he > is implying the he expects the bulk of the student to do better than > pass, he expects a 'high-pass'. > > (Does the punctuation tell us anything? 'High pass' vs 'high-pass'?) > > In otherwords, the minimum grade he expects is 'Acceptable'(pass), and > the more common or typical grade he expects is 'Exceeds Expectation' > (high pass), but only those who excel with 'Outstanding' will be > allowed into NEWTs. > > The overal impression is that Snape's students are above average, > which means 'B'-level or 'Exceed Expectations' is typcial, whereas, > relative to the standard statistical cross-section or bell curve, the > bulk of the student fall at 'C'-level or 'Acceptable'. > > And, as I said before, Harry seems to be a typical student when you > factor in Snape's persecution of him. That would put Harry on a par > with Ron, Dean, and Seamus. Perhaps, although not clear, he may be > ever so slightly better than they are. But, even factoring in Snape, > Harry's performance has never been at TOP level. > > In my humble opinion, to give Harry an 'Outstanding' is the same as > assuming Ron, Dean, and Seamus will all get 'Outstanding' grades. > Which in turn somewhat negates those student who truly do outstanding > work like Hermione and perhaps Draco. Hermione must surely get a > better grade than Harry. Carol: Hermione will get a better grade (mark) for the *course,* certainly--but not necessarily for the OWLS, on which Harry undoubtedly did better than he thinks he did. For one thing, as Umbridge of all people indicates, Snape's student are somewhat more advanced than she (and probably the test administrators) expects them to be. As for "high-pass level," I wonder whether that hyphen is in the British edition or only the American one and whether the Brits on the list interpret it as you're doing ("E" level) or as a high number of students passing the exam, which is essentially the same thing as expecting almost everyone to get at least an "A." Carol, hoping that last long sentence is clear Carol From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 02:16:48 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 02:16:48 -0000 Subject: House changing question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104499 I heard on another site, that there is suppose to be someone who changes their house in the upcoming book...does anyone know about this and where I can find the interview? Thanks Jacqui -Who has spent the last hour looking for it From McGregorMax at ec.rr.com Tue Jul 6 02:40:51 2004 From: McGregorMax at ec.rr.com (mcmaxslb) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 02:40:51 -0000 Subject: GoF Reduction Discussion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104500 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rzl46" wrote: > > I hope the second task *isn't* cut. First, it would make the golden > eggs pointless...it will be fun to see Harry fighting off > the grindylows and silently arguing with the merpeople and Viktor Krum > half-transformed into a shark. And the second task demonstrates > Harry's hero complex, which will be all important in OoP. >> Carol It's not. I've read on a couple of sites,Mugglenet being one, that the reason that Dan Radcliffe didn't go to Japan was that he was filming the underwater scenes for GoF. From mcdee1980 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 02:44:37 2004 From: mcdee1980 at yahoo.com (mcdee1980) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 02:44:37 -0000 Subject: Moody v Moody Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104501 In the most recent chapter discussion post there was a question about adult support in Harry's life. It occurred to me as I was reading that Fake Moody in GOF is more supportive of Harry than real Moody in OOtP; granted it was for his own purposes, but is JKR trying to tell us that the DEs can be used to Harry's advantage? fake Moody: helps Harry in his tri-wizards tasks, turns Malfoy into a ferret, gives Harry advice real Moody: shows Harry a picture of his parents that makes him more upset, threatens the people whose hospitality keeps him safe(not sticking up for the Dursleys, just identifying possible problems), isn't around to help Harry when he needs it, makes Harry think he might be possessed by LV. I might have missed some. This concerns me about the loyalty of the Order. Is Harry really just a weapon to them? Do any of them truly care about Harry or is he a means to an end the same way being a DE is for Lucius? Lady McBeth, concerned that Kneasy is the Half Blood Prince and just isn't telling us From mrsbonsai at charter.net Tue Jul 6 02:47:10 2004 From: mrsbonsai at charter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 02:47:10 -0000 Subject: Wands was:Re: CoS clues to Books 6 & 7 analysis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104502 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "smartone564" wrote: > > Ok, I probably missed this somewhere, but this is the second or > third time I have heard that Lily's first wand went away? What > happened to it, or where is that thread? Olivander mentions her first wand as being excellent for charm work. I don't know but that must mean something along the lines of she had a second one at some point. I just looked it up and the reference is that it seemed like it was yesterday she was "buying her first wand." Whether this pertains to it just simply everyone has a "first" wand, or there was a later one, I can't say for sure. My point was the "excellent for charm work" reference :) > Do you mean to say, that LV tried to use Lily's wand to AK Harry, > but that the same wand had put a protection over him? > Therefore, some damage (like the scar, house going boom) and > protection (didnt kill him, hurt LV) occured? That is exactly what I'm saying! I figure somehow there may have been a scuffle, and he couldn't reach his own wand, and ended up grabbing Lily's. So what do you think? If hers was excellent for charm work, there's no reason she wouldn't charm it to protect her kids? "Childproofing" comes to mind as well. :) Julie From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 02:48:59 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 02:48:59 -0000 Subject: The FAQ says "Lily first" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104503 Maybe this has already been straightened out (I haven't caught up on posting--sorry), but the thread about James being killed before Lily is driving me crazy. The error may have been made on the Text-only site and then corrected, or it may have been made by the original poster. In any case, the FAQ on Rowling's official site http://www.jkrowling.com/ clearly states that Lily comes out of the wand before James because she was killed after he was. In other words, this debate shouldn't even be occurring because 1) the FAQ is right, and 2) the error by the American editor has been corrected in recent reprints of the book. Please check out her official site if you still think that "James first" is correct. Thanks, Carol From mrsbonsai at charter.net Tue Jul 6 02:56:39 2004 From: mrsbonsai at charter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 02:56:39 -0000 Subject: LV'swand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104504 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > << has anyone ever asked how LV got his wand back? The house was > rubble so did someone go get it? >> > > Personally, I always assumed that LV took Pettigrew with him when he > went to kill the Potters (altho' Legilimency weakens such motives as > making sure that he is not being sent to a trap by making Peter walk > in front of him, or making sure that he is not being sent on a wild > goose chase by having Peter available to be immediately punished), so > when LV was disintegratedd, Peter grabbed up his wand before > scampering away in rat form. He may have hidden it somewhere from > whence he retrieved it on the way to rejoin LV, or may have kept it > with him in rat form all those years. > Ok, sudden thought I hadn't really thought of before. Is there any reason to believe the LV was controlling Pettigrew, who was then allowed into the house, and it was through Pettegrew that it happened, and the reversal of the spell went somehow through back to LV without affecting Pettigrew when it bounced? Ok, maybe that doesn't quite make sense. Is it possible LV used someone the Potters knew to get close, or would LV do the dirty deed himself? We're still wondering why the Avada Kedavra didn't come out of LV's wand, to which I am still saying it had something to do with Lily's wand. But perhaps also could be Pettigrews? Julie From mrsbonsai at charter.net Tue Jul 6 03:07:02 2004 From: mrsbonsai at charter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 03:07:02 -0000 Subject: My Heart of It All Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104505 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > Anyway, it makes for a good read for anyone considering Harry's > mortality, and the possibility that he is immortal and will have to > give it up to defeat Voldemort. I was convinced! After all, we know > after OOTP Harry is willing to die and wouldn't be impressed by > immortality in the least. Here's the link: > > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/hypotheticalley.html#ps > > This theory is under the section called Other Theories. > > Jen Reese Ooooo I like this one. It would actually support the whole, DD worked with Nicholas Flamel, and just how that could be when he's years and years and YEARS younger than Flamel, on the sorcers stone!!! That whole, the stone being found in Harry's Pocket too . . . Julie From mcdee1980 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 03:08:24 2004 From: mcdee1980 at yahoo.com (mcdee1980) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 03:08:24 -0000 Subject: Who are Sirius Black and Severus Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104506 All this talk about Sirius good or bad, well lets look at who he appears to be. 1.) Sirius Black is an escaped convict responsible for a mass murder 2.) Sirius Black is an animagus who looks peculiarly like a Grim, the omen for Death 3.) Sirius Black is innocent and Harry's beloved godfather who was good in classes, but had a habit of breaking the rules 4.) Sirius Black is a hazard for the Order, having provided them with a place to meet, but cannot leave the house for fear of giving them away 5.) Sirius Black is depressed 6.) Sirius Black leaves GP and is, as a result, dead. What do those things tell us? 1.) No one else thought it was impossible for Sirius to have committed a terrible crime 2.) No one apologizes to Sirius, except Lupin, for having been wrong all those years. They still aren't convinced he's really a good guy 3.)Snape taunts Sirius endlessly about being useless, their rivalry continues where it left off. We never find out who is the better man due to the fact that Sirius is now dead. Except! 4,5,&6) Ah yes Sirius risks himself by going to the Ministry to save Harry, while Snape remains undercover and does NOT put himself at risk to save Harry Potter. Despite the fact that Sirius is now dead I feel we will learn a bit about him in the next 2 books to balance the basic analysis out. Now lets talk about Severus Snape . . . 1.) Severus Snape was a Death Eater 2.) Severus Snape switches sides and joins the Order as a spy 3.) Dumbledore trusts Severus Snape as both a teacher and member of the Order 4.) Severus Snape picks on Griffyndors in class, particularly Harry, Hermoine, and Nevel. 5.) Snape is doing important work for the Order 6.) Harry and Ron don't trust Snape, but Hermoine does What do those things tell us? Good question! Not much is the answer. We've discussed his teaching practices to no end and his trustworthyness. The only conclusion I've come to is that I trust Snape; not because of Dumbledore, but rather because of Hermione. She's always right. Ron and Harry have an odd habit of being wrong about things. Hermione knows that Harry has to go on by himself in SS, Hermione knows that Harry is innocent in COS, Hermione knows to trust in POA, Hermione knows that Harry is capable in GOF, and Hermione knows that the dream in OOtP is a trap. I'm putting odds on her being right in this case. Lady McBeth, sick of all the fighting, but probably adding fuel to the fire From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 03:17:44 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 03:17:44 -0000 Subject: Is Mark Evans the half blood prince? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104507 danielmorgan wrote: Any one think that maybe Mark Evans is the half blood prince? He could be Harry's half brother. Debra (I think) responded: It's possible. I don't know if he's Harry's half brother, but he could be the half-blood prince. My thoughts on the subject are in message 103118. Carol: Even if one of Harry's parents gave birth to or fathered a child other than Harry, that child couldn't be Mark Evans, who is ten years old in OoP--five years younger than Harry, whose parents died when he was fifteen months old. IOW, they died about four years before Mark Evans was born. By my calculations, the closest he can be to Harry is about a second cousin, though of course I could be wrong! At any rate, Mark lives in a Muggle neighborhood and neither Harry nor Dudley has any clue that he's anything other than a Muggle. My guess is that, like Lily, he's a Muggleborn, not a half blood. But it's a safe bet we'll see him at Hogwarts in HBP. Carol From mrsbonsai at charter.net Tue Jul 6 03:23:51 2004 From: mrsbonsai at charter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 03:23:51 -0000 Subject: Acronyms/The Prophecy/Ron'sFirstWand/Crookshanks as HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104508 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > So we know Ron's first wand had a unicorn hair core. One can argue > that we only know this because it was important to JKR to show Ron's > poverty by his used wand being worn out, or that the only reason for > the 'spell' to turn Scabbers yellow was to let readers know it was > unicorn hair. > I would never say "only" reason. After all, it was a spell to turn Rat's hair yellow . . . and Pettigrew wasn't a real rat :) Julie From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue Jul 6 03:38:14 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 03:38:14 -0000 Subject: Fear and Valour (Long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104509 > > Valky wrote a long theory suggesting Voldemort's power is based on the general fear of saying his name: > > > using a "complex spell model" combining at least two forms of > > > powerful magic upon the masses to concrete his dominion of the > > > wizard world. > > > marked his servants as servants of > > > this spell. *first priority* maintaining to the absolute the > > > fear of his name. wrote: > > > > This is an interesting theory, but how would Voldemort have > > created this "spellform" giving him power through the fear of > > his name? Presumably people came to be afraid of him because of > > his awful actions, how did he get power to do these before he > > was so widely feared? > > AmanitaMuscaria : Voldy would have created his spellform as all tyrants create their own myth - slowly and with care. The same way he became The Dark Lord. he became the Dark Lord and Lord Voldemort truly once he'd gone through the 'many transformations'. It's a gradual process. The only problem is, you have the outcome being as either good or evil must win - surely the only outcome is a balance or rebalance of good and evil? So in effect 'neither can win whilst the other survives', but that's what life is. > > Valky: For Pandrea: Amanita has answered your question in much the way I would have. Supposing of course that JKR is not about to cancel all possibility that a single spell with a massive result could be one that is carefully planned in secret and slowly piece by piece put together to form the greater whole over the course of many years, (Much like the HP series ;D) we can assume that the reason for the air of terror created by Tom's deeds might have been an essential ingredient in the success of the spell model, rather than the air of terror being a reason unto itself. As also seen in the necessity for Happy Thoughts to produce the Patronus and Laughter to vanquish the Boggart these spell are as good as useless without the added environmental elements. So saying that the Immortal Personage spell is not going to work without an environment of extreme Fear or extreme Valour. Which is how I would like to answer Amanita. You make an excellent point to me and a restored balance of the two is of course the ultimate ending. The way I see it the spell forms are the the same, reversed. So saying that Harry's Immortal Personage exists because of the Valour inside him, equal to the Fear that surrounds Voldemort. Also, where Harry goes he inspires brave deeds also just as in the heart of Voldemort is always Fear. So you see they are both actually not balanced themselves. Each are the embodiment of the side that they are on. As I said there is only one actual normal life between them and it hovers in the air of the WW. This is why I say neither of them are actually living now, in a way both of them are representing a half of the life that they share. So as I posted in my original if one half of the life was to unbalance and defeat the other the suppressed half will rise again and they two halves will still exist with their embodiments at odds with each other again. Now at this point I really must say that Harry is Harry and LV is LV. As Dumbledore said, they are essentially divided. They are not each other, they are themselves and I really dont want my theory to be lacking that distinction. So having said all this I surmise that I do agree, Amanita. The balance must be restored. Of course if we look at it too long in this way there is never really any threat to Harrys life, because LV doesn't want balance restored he doesn't want the life. He wants to keep the immortality. In this way Harry faces a future much worse than death. If he doesn't find a way to restore the balance and snatch away the life from Voldy, after which I expect he may have no choice but to sacrifice it, then he will be locked in an eternal battle with the Dark Lord which will probably destroy Wizardom and lose him everything that matters most to him. From sweetface531 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 03:39:59 2004 From: sweetface531 at yahoo.com (Justine) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 03:39:59 -0000 Subject: Harry LIVES! (was: prophecy wording) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104510 Carole: "either must die at the HAND of the other" Justine responds: Wow! This sounds silly, but I've never read it with that emphasis before, and it seems to make all the difference in the world! So, the prophecy (which was worded carefully by Trelawney and JKR) states that "either must die at the HAND (emphasis Carole's) of the other." This brings me back to Dumbledore's look of triumph in GoF. It is only after Harry tells him that Voldemort touched his, Harry's, face, that Dumbledore's face takes on this expression. Voldemort was, consequently, happy that touching Harry's face does not harm him. What he fails to realize, however, is that Harry is left unharmed as well. Harry does feel pain, but his head is already aching from the scar, and the scar gives Harry pain whenever Voldemort experiences emotion, the intensity of the pain varying with the intensity of the emotion. Imagine the strength of Voldemort's happiness when realizing (incorrectly) that Harry's touch will not kill him! Harry is not hurt, *certainly* not killed, from the touch of Voldemort's hand. Dumbledore is triumphant because *Harry did not die at Voldemort's HAND* and therefore Voldemort must be vulnerable to the touch of Harry's HAND, and not his FACE or any other part of his body. We've already seen Quirrell die because of contact with Harry's hands--that isn't just movie contamination, is it? Perhaps Dumbledore now knows that, according to the prophecy, Harry cannot be killed by Voldemort. Then, logically, Harry is the one with the fatal touch! Perhaps I'm only trying to comfort myself with this "evidence" for Harry's survival... Justine From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jul 6 03:39:40 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 03:39:40 -0000 Subject: House changing question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104511 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jacqui" wrote: > I heard on another site, that there is suppose to be someone who > changes their house in the upcoming book...does anyone know about > this and where I can find the interview? Thanks > Jacqui > -Who has spent the last hour looking for it Potioncat: So far no one has ever come up with a JKR quote to back that up. So I wouldn't bet on it. However, I think it'd be great for Harry to discover the teachers had all changed Houses and he was now Snape's best Quidditch player! From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 03:44:04 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 03:44:04 -0000 Subject: House changing question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104512 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: snip > Potioncat: > So far no one has ever come up with a JKR quote to back that up. So > I wouldn't bet on it. However, I think it'd be great for Harry to > discover the teachers had all changed Houses and he was now Snape's > best Quidditch player! Alla: LOLOL! Don't you remember - Snape will lead Gryffindor House at the end of the series as former Gryff himself and Harry indeed could become Snape's best Quidditch player. :) From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jul 6 03:52:07 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 03:52:07 -0000 Subject: Who are Sirius Black and Severus Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104513 Lady McBeth wrote: snip 3.)Snape taunts Sirius endlessly > about being useless, their rivalry continues where it left off. We > never find out who is the better man due to the fact that Sirius is > now dead. Except! 4,5,&6) Ah yes Sirius risks himself by going to > the Ministry to save Harry, while Snape remains undercover and does > NOT put himself at risk to save Harry Potter. Potioncat: In a team effort, every member has a role. Sirius really should have stayed at Grimmauld Place and briefed DD. Or certainly, someone other than Kreacher should have been there. I think the Aurors should have insisted he stay. As for Snape, who knows how he felt about it? He would have done more harm to the Order by being at the battle, than by staying at Hogwarts. As it stands now, he is still usefull. While I understand why Black went to the DoM, I know he shouldn't have. Lady McBeth: snip The only conclusion I've come to is that I trust > Snape; not because of Dumbledore, but rather because of Hermione. > She's always right. I'm putting odds on > her being right in this case. > Lady McBeth, sick of all the fighting, but probably adding fuel to > the fire Potioncat: I have a match! I think Hermione knows something about Snape that she isn't telling. He really should be nicer to her. Potioncat From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jul 6 03:55:48 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 03:55:48 -0000 Subject: Acronyms/The Prophecy/Ron'sFirstWand/Crookshanks as HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104514 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jastrangfeld" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" > wrote: > snip ... or that the only reason for the 'spell' to turn Scabbers yellow was to let readers know it was unicorn hair. Julie: > I would never say "only" reason. After all, it was a spell to turn > Rat's hair yellow . . . and Pettigrew wasn't a real rat :) > Potioncat: No, but Scabbers was already yellow. (an American term for coward) And, Ron's new wand is also unicorn hair. Does anyone remember who his old wand "originally" belonged to? From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 03:55:41 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 03:55:41 -0000 Subject: Who are Sirius Black and Severus Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104515 > Potioncat wrote: big snip. > I have a match! I think Hermione knows something about Snape that > she isn't telling. He really should be nicer to her. Alla: What does she know? I want to know that too. :o) Do you think she made another observation after vampire essay just like she made after essay about werewolves? Or did you mean something totally different? Please, please tell me. From MadameSSnape at aol.com Tue Jul 6 03:58:47 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 23:58:47 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Acronyms/The Prophecy/Ron'sFirstWand/Crookshanks as HBP Message-ID: <115.34c24cdd.2e1b7d77@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104516 In a message dated 7/5/2004 11:56:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, willsonkmom at msn.com writes: Ron's new wand is also unicorn hair. Does anyone remember who his old wand "originally" belonged to? ============= Sherrie here: His older brother Charlie. He got Bill's old robes, Charlie's old wand, and Percy's old rat, as he tells Harry on the Hogwarts Express. Sherrie "Unless history lives in our present, it has no future." PRESERVE OUR CIVIL WAR BATTLEFIELDS! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jul 6 04:04:44 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 04:04:44 -0000 Subject: Who are Sirius Black and Severus Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104517 Potioncat: snip I think Hermione knows something about Snape that she isn't telling. He really should be nicer to her. > Alla: > What does she know? I want to know that too. :o) Do you think she > made another observation after vampire essay just like she made after essay about werewolves? Or did you mean something totally different? Potioncat: I don't know what she knows, but I'm sure she knows something. She seems to stand up for him in OoP...and she seems disappointed that he isn't nicer. Either she learned something while doing her vampire essay that relates to Snape, or she learned about him when she looked into registered animagi, or while she was at Grimmauld Place, or who knows what or when... But it wouldn't be the first time she learned something and kept her mouth shut about it. I don't know what it is. I don't know if Snape knows she knows....but I'm pretty darn sure she knows something I don't know! Potioncat (for that matter, lots of people know things I don't know) From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 04:14:57 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 04:14:57 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's body In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104518 Snow wrote: ...Sirius said in POA pg. 365 "I set out for your parents' house straight away. And when I saw their house, destroyed, and their bodies " If there were two bodies that Sirius assumed to be the Potters and Voldemort lost his body with the rebounded AK, shouldn't there have been three bodies? Lily and James are supposedly both killed at GH and Voldemort was ripped from his body there so which body is missing? Steve asian_lovr2 responded: > > Yes, I did read that, but you are assuming that 'thier bodies' is an > all inclusive statement. That is, that it totally defines the scene, > when in reality it may have only been referring to one aspect of the > scene. > > Sirius starts by referring to 'your parents' which rightfully leads us to assume that 'their bodies' is reserved for 'Lily and James', > Harry's parents, and indeed that may have been the only part of the > scene that Sirius was interested in at the time, but it doesn't > exclude the presents of more bodies. By the same token, it doesn't > demand that more bodies are present. Carol: If Voldemort's body was found, wouldn't everyone assume he was dead--not, like Hagrid, thinking there wasn't enough human left in him to die? And yet if there *wasn't* a body, how would anyone know that he was destroyed and that Harry survived the AK? Either his body was there, looking unharmed but surprised (normal AK victim except for the serpentlike face) or there must have been a witness. Carol, who hopes that everyone has read the FAQ by now and realizes that Lily came out of the wand before James (as we already *knew*) From KLMF at aol.com Tue Jul 6 04:18:25 2004 From: KLMF at aol.com (KLMF at aol.com) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 00:18:25 EDT Subject: Umbridge and Veritas Serum Message-ID: <1cf.252d7247.2e1b8211@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104519 I don't know if this topic has come up... Veritus serum.....According to Snape, he gave Umbridge the whole bottle for use on Harry and told her "only a few drops should do it", but the bottle was apparently all used up by Umbridge. Any ideas on whom it may have been used on besides Harry, if anyone? After all, we don't actually know if Umbridge used it all at once on Harry against Snape's directions, or perhaps took advantage of having the stuff and tried to use it on anyone else? Who else would Umbridge try to use it on? (unsuccessfully, of course, since it was (supposedly, according to DD)fake in this case) Thoughts? Karen F From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 04:25:21 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 04:25:21 -0000 Subject: Harry and the Half Brother Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104520 - asian_lovr2 (Steve) wrote: > As I have said many times before, if there is a family relationship > between Harry and Mark, it has to be VERY distant, or we have been > flat out lied to for 5 books. I say the absolute nearest common > ancestor they could have would be Grandparents, but in all likelihood, > Great or Great-Great Grandparents. > > Remember, that's not 'more likely' to be, but more likely to be the > nearest possible. In all likelihood, the relationship is more distant than that. Carol: If Harry and Mark are, say, second cousins, it wouldn't be a matter of having been lied to. It would simply be that Dumbledore is *not* omniscient and didn't know about Mark because Mark's parents are Muggles. (The fact that he lives in Little Whinging and has the same last name as Petunia and Lily also suggests a not-too-distant relationship--a shared great-grandfather who was a Squib, or whatever.) OTOH, if Petunia turns out to be a witch, I'll say we've been "flat out lied to." We hear in every single book, including chapter 1 of SS/PS, which is not written from Harry's POV, that she's a Muggle. And Mark's parents must be, too, since the MoM has no record of any witch or wizard in Little Whinging. (They wouldn't know about Mark.) Carol From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jul 6 04:35:58 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 04:35:58 -0000 Subject: Umbridge and Veritas Serum In-Reply-To: <1cf.252d7247.2e1b8211@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104521 karen F. wrote: > I don't know if this topic has come up... > > Veritus serum.....According to Snape, he gave Umbridge the whole bottle for > use on Harry and told her "only a few drops should do it", but the bottle was > apparently all used up by Umbridge. Any ideas on whom it may have been used on > besides Harry, if anyone? Potioncat: I read this as a cat and mouse game. Snape gave her a container of water and told her only to use a few drops. She used the entire vial. Of course it did no good, partly because Harry tossed it (I can't remember if he actually drank any.) So he is mocking her, "You didn't use the entire vial, did you?" (or something like that.) Now, I'd like to know if the rest is the truth, that it takes a month to make it. If the older Slytherin students are any good, they'll know if he is telling the truth. And he may be in this case. From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jul 6 04:44:09 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 04:44:09 -0000 Subject: Harry and the Half Brother Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104522 > > Carol: > If Harry and Mark are, say, second cousins, it wouldn't be a matter of > having been lied to. It would simply be that Dumbledore is *not* > omniscient and didn't know about Mark because Mark's parents are > Muggles. (The fact that he lives in Little Whinging and has the same > last name as Petunia and Lily also suggests a not-too-distant > relationship--a shared great-grandfather who was a Squib, or whatever.) snip Potioncat: When does blood stop being blood? And would closer blood be stronger than more distant blood as far as a spell is concerned? I think it is interesting that Aunt Marge goes on and on about the important of blood when she belittles Harry's parents. I've chosen a wait and see approach to Mark Evans. His name has so many possible readings! But just not knowing because they were Muggles doesn't seem adequate. I'm sure JKR has come up with something to surprise us. I doubt if Lily and Petunia grew up in Little Whinging. Which makes it all the more interesting that there is an Evans there. I wonder if Petunia knows. Potioncat From nadinesaintamour at hotmail.com Tue Jul 6 05:02:47 2004 From: nadinesaintamour at hotmail.com (catimini15) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 05:02:47 -0000 Subject: CoS versus the Dark Mark (was Re: Sirius,Snape,Lily,CoS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104523 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snow15145" wrote: > > What if only the Tom Riddle portion of Voldemort was transferred to > > Harry that night at Godric's Hollow? Tom Riddle a descendent of > > Salizar Slytherin had the ability to speak parcel tongue not > > Voldemort. Harry is able to speak parcel tongue because of Tom > > Riddle's legacy and now it has been shared with Harry through this > > connection. Harry thinks when he hears the name of Tom Riddle that > it > > is familiar like a long lost friend. Harry isn't tied to Voldemort > > just to Tom Riddle who is in turn connected with Voldemort. The > > Voldemort portion of the body that night that had been protected > from > > physical death is what appears as Vapormort. So it is like three > > separate entities that are all connected. > > Therefore there may very well be three people involved in the > > prophecy: Harry, Tom and Voldemort. > > > > " And either (Harry or Tom) must die at the hand of the other > > (Voldemort) for neither (Harry or Tom) can live while the other > > (Voldemort) survives " > Snow again: > The Ginny factor could be interesting! Ginny may be > the source that allows Harry to understand what actually happened > that night at Godric's Hollow. Ginny may provide a lot of insite into > what Tom/Voldemort revealed to her. Now me (Nadine) : First, let me say that I really like your ?reading? of the prophecy Snow. I think you are on to something. I would like to add that on her website, JKR says that if ?Ginny had died and Tom Riddle would have escaped the diary (in CoS), it would have strengthened the present day Voldemort considerably.? Why ? Is it because Ginny is full of the same ?power? Harry is suppose to have plenty off ? Could it be love and a little bit of Godric Gryffindor's ? Your post reminded me also of something Voldemort said in the graveyard scene in GoF. He said (The Death Eaters Chapter) : ?.. I was willing to embrace mortal life again (...) I set my sights lower... I would settle for my old body back again and my old strength.? Did he really settle for his old body ? Voldy needed three powerful ingredients : (1) Flesh given by a servant; (2) His father's bone and (3) The blood of a foe. What bugs me is that Tom Riddle Sr. was not a wizard. The Salazar Slytherin's blood that used to flow in Voldemort's old body came from his mother and I presume it was destroyed in Godric's Hollow. Somehow, the ?new? Voldemort seems to be walking around minus the old Salazar Slytherin component. Is he a ?quarter? blood sort of Lord now ? Maybe that is the explanation for the look of triumph in DD's eye. There seem to always be a half something (or someone) missing somewhere. What part am I missing ? Nadine From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue Jul 6 05:18:57 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 05:18:57 -0000 Subject: Fear and Valour (Long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104524 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aggiepaddy" wrote: > Pandrea wrote: > > > Valky wrote a long theory suggesting Voldemort's power is based on the general fear of saying his name: > > Sherry wrote: > > I've been thinking along these lines as well. I've never yet heard a death eater call Voldemort by his name. In fact, though I have nothing but gut instinct, this is one of the reasons I don't believe in ESE Lupin or Black. > > Question though, did fake Moody say the name? > Aggie: > Hello! Having just browsed through GoF, Ch 35. 'Moody' DOES say > Voldy's name but generally uses the term Dark Lord. He may feel > justified to use his name because in his heart he believes that he is worthy of LV as he never turned his back on his master. > Valky: Oh, excellent question! Firstly I rescanned GOF and came across the passage that Aggie found also. Bart Crouch Jr did indeed say "Voldemort" and it punches a glaring hole in my theory. The explanation that Aggie has given ,which I think is rather good, does make sense but doesn't really cover my theory because I proposed that Death Eaters were a servant to their mark and unable to by sheer force of the spell, to speak in a manner that might dispel the fear of the name 'Voldemort'. So at this point I am going to take a gigantic leap and propose something that is a bit crazy, and it could be right too. Bart Jr was never marked! My supporting canon is that he was extremely young when he crucioed the Longbottoms. Perhaps too young to have actually been into the DE creed beyond his initiation. So young he may have been an outside and silent inactive supporter of LV right up till he became Vapomort. We know that Barty Jr crucioed the Longbottoms after Godrics Hollow. So if the mark was to be placed on the DE by Voldemort himself to seal the connection it could not have been done if Barty Jr hadn't actually joined before Voldys failed AK on Harry. Therefore, he may not be an actual Death Eater, and may not be wearing the Dark Mark at all. Meaning if he was to will himself to say Voldemort there is nothing magical to stop him. Reminding you that I only scanned GOF to come up with this theory, I hope anyone with canon to rip it up and discard it will be very very nice. Best to you all. From n2fgc at arrl.net Tue Jul 6 05:21:36 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 01:21:36 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Umbridge and Veritas Serum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104525 | From: potioncat | Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 00:36 | | karen F. wrote: | > I don't know if this topic has come up... | > | > Veritus serum.....According to Snape, he gave Umbridge the whole | bottle for | > use on Harry and told her "only a few drops should do it", but the | bottle was | > apparently all used up by Umbridge. Any ideas on whom it may have | been used on | > besides Harry, if anyone? | | Potioncat: | I read this as a cat and mouse game. Snape gave her a container of | water and told her only to use a few drops. She used the entire | vial. Of course it did no good, partly because Harry tossed it (I | can't remember if he actually drank any.) | | So he is mocking her, "You didn't use the entire vial, did you?" | (or something like that.) | | Now, I'd like to know if the rest is the truth, that it takes a | month to make it. If the older Slytherin students are any good, | they'll know if he is telling the truth. And he may be in this | case. [Lee]: Well, considering that this is a controlled substance as referenced in GOF, and considering that Polyjuice took a month to make, I would think Snape wouldn't gain anything by prevarication on that point. In GOF, it says: --Begin Quote-- "It is Veritaserum--a Truth Potion so powerful that three drops would have you spilling your innermost secrets for this entire class to hear," said Snape viciously. "Now, the use of this potion is controlled by very strict Ministry guidelines. But unless you watch your step, you might just find that my hand _slips"--he shook the crystal bottle slightly--"right over your evening pumpkin juice. And then, Potter ... then..." --End Quote-- In OOTP, Harry doesn't drink the tea given him; he only fakes it and feeds it to Umbridge's straw flowers...poor flowers! :-) Later, during her interrogation of Harry after the fireplace incident: --Begin Quote from OOTP-- "You took my last bottle to interrogate Potter," he said, surveying her coolly through his greasy curtains of black hair. "Surely you did not use it all? I told you that three drops would be sufficient." Umbridge flushed. "You can make some more, can't you?" she said, her voice becoming more sweetly girlish as it always did when she was furious. "Certainly," said Snape, his lip curling. "It takes a full moon cycle to mature, so I should have it ready for you in around a month." "A month?" squawked Umbridge, swelling toadishly. "A month? But I need it this evening,..." -End Quote-- The way I see it, in all honesty, Umbridge doesn't really know much about potion-making, else she would have taken care how to use the stuff. Some think more is better and she obviously did, so she used the whole bottle figuring 1) she could get more easily, since she seems a bit clueless and 2) she'd be able to get Harry to spill his guts. IMO, Snape was being honest about the time it would take to make more and her lack of knowledge is what leads to her surprise. And, I say she's clueless in that she couldn't get rid of all Fred and George's little--uh--inventions (i.e. the swamp, etc.) when Flitwick, et al, really would have had no problem dealing with them, just that they didn't really want to and wanted to see her struggle. When it comes to magic she--uh--needs like the horrid quill and, probably, even the cruciatus curse, she knows what she needs to know when she needs to know it in order to advance her cause, so to speak, but when it comes to general magical use, she seems to need to rely on others to perform the functions. Cheers, Lee :-) (Who takes umbrage with Umbridge.) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me; | n2fgc at arrl.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 05:22:15 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 05:22:15 -0000 Subject: Hermione's parents In-Reply-To: <146.2d47675c.2e164046@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104526 Del wrote: And as for those scenes that we get to see and Harry doesn't, they are extremely rare. There's the first chapter of SS/PS, and... er... well that's pretty much it, if I'm not mistaken. Even the first chapter of GoF is actually seen by Harry, in a dream.< Batchevra: There is more in the first book that we get a glimpse of a different perspective. The first is when Harry's broom is being jinxed by Quirrell, there is one part that shows the perspective of Ron, Hagrid or Neville. I can't decide which one yet. > The second one is when Snape is refereeing the Quidditich match and we get the perspective of either Ron or Neville, Ron tells Harry later of the fight between Draco, Crabbe and Goyle. Carol: I don't think there's a POV character for those scenes. The narrator is simply relating events from an observer's (not a character's) perspective, as he or she also does in the Privet Drive scene in SS/PS, where we're not allowed inside the minds of any of the characters (though we do briefly see from Vernon Dursley's POV earlier in that chapter). There's one other tiny moment when the narrator points out something that Harry isn't aware of--Neville is also lying awake (it's the night after Fake!Moody's Unforgiveable Curses lesson). These are all variations on the limited omniscient point of view, in which the narrator knows the thoughts and feelings of one or a few characters, but not all of them. The dream or vision scenes, especially the one where Harry "becomes" the Voldemort-possessed snake, are a very interesting use of this device, or maybe a way of getting around its built-in limitations. (I should add, though, that as a stylistic device, particularly for a series involving elements of mystery, it's vastly preferable to an omniscient narrator. Imagine if she were able to report Snape's or Dumbledore's thoughts. Half the fun is that we don't see them as they "really are" (if that were possible), but only or mostly as Harry sees them.) Carol From Meliss9900 at aol.com Tue Jul 6 05:34:34 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 01:34:34 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and the Half Brother Prince Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104527 In a message dated 07/05/2004 11:32:04 PM Central Daylight Time, justcarol67 at yahoo.com writes: > And > Mark's parents must be, too, since the MoM has no record of any witch > or wizard in Little Whinging. (They wouldn't know about Mark.) > > Carol > I agree. Why would the MoM feel the need to know the whereabouts of an underage muggle born who doesn't even know he's a wizard yet? He's not a threat to Harry. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 05:38:24 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 05:38:24 -0000 Subject: The Dursleys at Risk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104528 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Jocelyn Grunow wrote: > on 2/7/2004 3:56 PM, justcarol67 at justcarol67 at y... wrote: > > > I think that's one reason Dumbledore placed Harry with them > > (the charm that protects him as long as he's with his mother's blood > > kindred is of course the other reason, but DD placed that charm > > himself). > > I don't think that Dumbledore PLACED the charm - I think it is a side-effect > of the original magic that protected Harry. (Rather like the 'deep magic' > of the Narnia series, but let's not go there. I have just deleted several > paragraphs and you should all be grateful!) > > Jocelyn Actually, if you go back several thousand posts (I don't really expect you to), you'll find that I think there were two charms: One, the "ancient magic" charm that could only be activated by Lily's self-sacrifice, placed by Lily herself before Godric's Hollow to protect Harry from Avada Kedavra; the other placed by Dumbledore using that "blood" sacrifice to grant Harry additional protection as long as he stays with Petunia. Dumbledore says near the end of OoP that he placed such a charm; sorry I don't have the exact quote handy, but it's in the chapter that discusses the Prophecy. (The primary arguments for the first charm being placed by Lily are that 1) other mothers, notably Barty Crouch's, have sacrificed themselves for their children but failed to save them and 2) Lily's skill with charms is alluded to in several places, notably by Ollivander in SS/PS. But since your post was about DD's charm, I won't go into that here.) The second charm is definitely placed by Dumbledore. He says so himself. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 05:42:57 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 05:42:57 -0000 Subject: DD=H B P In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104529 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dnp1234" wrote: > I don't think Dudley would be worthy of a part of the title of the > book. JK Rowling makes it pretty clear that Lily Potter was muggle born. If > this is the case then Dudley would not be a half blood. > > I really hope Dudley does not play a bigger role in the last 2 books. > > "davyval" Carol: I agree. Even if Dudley had latent magical powers (which I doubt), he wouldn't be admitted to Hogwarts at age sixteen. Consequently, he'll only be in a small part of the book. The HBP has to be someone else. My candidates so far (mentioned in other posts) are Dumbledore and Godric Gryffindor. I'm leaning toward the second since we've had no indication of any kind of royalty in the "modern" WW. Even the one "lord" is self-appointed. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 05:53:04 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 05:53:04 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Thestrals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104530 -becky: Just a general point here as I reread OotP... Neville's grandfather was killed in front of him. Many signs point to Neville's memory having been tampered with-- why would this memory be left? Just musing, really... Christina: I have wondered this also, but I also wonder how his grandfather died? Could he have died in VMW1 when his parents were attacked? Pixie: Who says his grandfather was killed? I always pictured him dying in bed, from natural causes. There would be no need to modify a memory like that. Carol (responding to everybody): I don't have the exact quote handy, but Bellatrix taunts Neville during the DoM battle about his grandmother losing yet another relative (meaning Neville himself) to the DEs. That to me suggests that the DEs killed her husband as well as torturing her son and daughter-in-law into insanity. (Bella herself may have had a hand in the murder, though her specialty is the Cruciatus Curse.) Not that I believe Neville has had his memory modified. The human mind can only take so much suffering, and I imagine that his forgetfulness is partly the result of repression from which he's slowly recovering. There really is no need for memory modification spells to explain his mental and emotional state in Books 1 through 5. Carol From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue Jul 6 05:56:14 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 05:56:14 -0000 Subject: Kreacher the Murderer (Re: Sirius revisited--emotional maturity) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104531 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brenda M." wrote: > EXCELLENT post, Valky! And if I may go off-track for a second, your name reminds me of Victor Krum for some reason, lol (Hermione: "Don't call him 'Vicki!' "). You good at Soccer? > Thanks Bren! I actually do feel quite kindred to Krum as a matter of fact, but I don't play soccer. I am Aussie and nearly 30 now so my youth has preceded the soccer revolution here. I play Rugby. > >>> Valky wrote: > > Some time ago it was supposed that Kreacher was implementing a plot to get rid of Sirius a long time before he left Grimmauld Place to the Malfoy residence. The canon that supports this is in congruent elements scattered through OOtP. > Bren now: > > Let me get this straight. Are you suggesting that there's more to > Sirius loathing Kreacher? Like Sirius resented him *not just* for the long history between them, but because Kreacher was doing something to him during his stay at Grim-Old Place in OoP? But if Sirius had suspected something, why didn't he do anything? > Valky: Well......... not really. but it brings me to my argument as to why a befuddlement draught is even more applicable to this scenario. You're suggesting that Sirius is very smart and quick to notice things that don't seem quite right. And I absolutely whole heartedly agree with you!!! I have gathered my Sirius blueprints together in my thoughts and this is one aspect of his character that really sticks out. He is remarkably quick off the mark! When I imagine all the Marauders together and consider their roles in their group I am certain that Sirius was extraordinarily intelligent, in fact somewhat in Hermione's league I think. {By the way. I see James as having been highly gifted but a bit of a dunderhead a bit like Ron, and Lupin as someone who's stand out feature is his inner strength like Harry. Of course they are their own people essentially and the analogies are just to help draw the picture. I don't for a second believe JKR created the same group of people twice. In fact I think that it is an extra good imitation of life, in that people with these very characteristics seem to attract each other and get along well.} Ok enough straying back to the point. So Sirius is very very intelligent, the kind of person who would notice if someone was plotting against him. And of all people who would know that best but one who raised him and cared for him through his life, ie Kreacher. So saying, I suspect that if say Hermione's dad was trying to keep a secret from her he would, of all people, know that he was in for a very hard time doing and he, of all people, would have the best idea how to actually do it and be probably successful. I think that Kreacher chose a 'befuddlement' draught because it gave him precisely the result he needed. One it would push Sirius over the edge to endanger his life and Two because by befuddling Sirius he was giving himself the best chance of success against Sirius' keen observation and intelligence. I am pretty sure that, even so, throughout it all Kreacher would have still been quite scared that Sirius would figure it out because he was so smart. >More Valky: > I could go on, now, about how JKR must know how guilty she is of > > allowing Kreacher to steal most of our last moments with Sirius > from us. > > > > And that SAD DENIAL has a right to a SIRIUS RESSURRECTION because > Bren: YES! Although I believe we'll get a full blast of much happier and fuller Sirius (face-wise) in Book 6 & 7!! JKR owes us that much, after you-know-what at DoM... (well she doesn't owe us anything really, but one can only hope...) > Valky: Yes I am sure we will. Though, you're right she doesn't really owe us, I personally love Sirius and I am proud to be doing my part to hold the Marauders fort against the ESE and 'just plain stupid' tide especially since the pensieve scene in OOtP. But until HBP and the 7th book are here to redeem the boys it is my solemn duty to protect their reputation and esteem through my continued support of the SPL. From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Jul 6 06:48:21 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 06:48:21 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104532 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Debra" wrote: > But if this is the legitimate title of book six, and it > > also was a tried-and-failed title of CS, which deals predominantly > > with Tom Riddle, then it follows semi-logically that the half- blood > > prince that may or may not make an appearance in book six is Tom > > Riddle, the younger version of the "King", Lord Voldemort. > (Actually, are sons of lords also known as princes? That might point > us in a > > different direction.) Carol: > We haven't seen any royalty among the modern > wizards, only the self-appointed aristocracy of the purebloods and > their self-named "lord." > > The sons of lords are definitely not called princes, though the term > "prince of the blood" was sometimes applied to dukes and earls who > could claim direct (legitimate) descent in the male line from an > English king (e.g. Edward III, ancestor of both the Yorkists and the > Lancastrians). Geoff: While reading this post, a thought came to me that there are places where the ruler is a prince and not a king or anything "higher". the example which immediately sprang to mind was Prince Rainier of Monaco. Geoff [frantically trying to cope with the rising tide of messages over recent days. Is this the HPFGU equivalent of global warming? :-)] From mcdee1980 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 06:48:02 2004 From: mcdee1980 at yahoo.com (mcdee1980) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 06:48:02 -0000 Subject: The Dark Lord Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104533 Has anyone else noticed that the Prophesies made by Trelawney use the title "The Dark Lord" rather than Voldemort or He Who Must Not Be Named? This struck me as both odd and alarming. Why would JKR choose to have her revelations coming from someone who sounds like a Death Eater instead of someone fighting against the "Dark Lord"? JKR has stated that both she and Professor Trelawney worded the Prophesies very carefully. A couple of out there questions come to mind: 1.) Is Trelawney ESE!Trelawney? Possible . . . she keeps talking about everyone dying and horrible things happenning. 2.) Is this the channeled spirit of a Death Eater? Trelawney doesn't remember when she is making a true prophesy. Who else doesn't remember what they've been doing: Ginny, when she's possessed by Tom Riddle in COS. Interesting . . . very interesting, who or what is possessing Trelawney when she is making true prophesies. Her use of the Dark Lord indicates that it is probably someone who followed Voldemort or at least believed his schtick. Could that someone be alive? The prophesies are a key to the story line, and I truly believe that there must be one more to complete the group, why else would she still be around at the end of OOtP? There is more of this swimming around in my brain, but the picture just isn't clear enough to write right now. Lady McBeth, up past her bedtime again From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 06:49:11 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 06:49:11 -0000 Subject: Potions O.W.L - Pass vs High-Pass In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104534 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > > Steve/asian_lovr2: > > > > In my humble opinion, to give Harry an 'Outstanding' is the same > > as assuming Ron, Dean, and Seamus will all get 'Outstanding' > > grades. Which in turn somewhat negates those student who truly do > > outstanding work like Hermione and perhaps Draco. Hermione must > > surely get a better grade than Harry. > Carol: > Hermione will get a better grade (mark) for the *course,* > certainly--but not necessarily for the OWLS, on which Harry > undoubtedly did better than he thinks he did. For one thing, as > Umbridge of all people indicates, Snape's student are somewhat more > advanced than she (and probably the test administrators) expects > them to be. > Asian_lovr2: Well, you can see from what remains of my quote above, if you think Harry got an 'Outstanding' that's close to thinking everyone got an outstanding. I think we can safely say that Herione indeed did get an 'outstanding' in potions; so, are those who think Harry will get the same grade also saying that Harry has the same calibre of potions skill as Hermione? It's clear from the story that Hermione IS outstanding at potions, and it is clear Harry is NOT. Stated from another angle, what's the purpose of the TOP Grade, if it doesn't go to the TOP Students? Even factoring in the test conditions, I just can't see how a student who had difficulty with the class, difficulty with the test, and thought he might scrape by with an 'Acceptable' can suddenly jump to 'Outstanding'. It's just too great a leap. As I see it, people want Harry to get 'Outstanding' because they assume that that's what it takes to get into NEWT Potions class, and that's what it takes to become an Auror. But neither supposition is absolutely truth. You only /historically/ need an 'Outstanding' to get into */SNAPE's/* NEWT Potions. Different teacher, different rules. Different times, different rules. Different student, different rules. As far as needing Potions to be an Auror, I also pointed out reasonable exceptions to that rule. An otherwise outstanding student who was fair at potions and good at Herbology has a high likelihood of doing just as well as a student who was fair to good at DADA, and good at Potions. I don't think Potions is a required course to be an Auror, I base this on my interpretation of the way McGonagall phrased her statements during Harry's career counciling. It's not the class or the NEWT that you need to be an Auror, it's a demonstrated bank of knowledge and skill. A good cross sectional knowledge of potions, plants, poisons, and antidotes could be gained with a basic working knowledge of potions (OWL Level) and NEWT Herbology. I will acknowledge that Potions is a broader more diverse field than Herbology, but the key is still a working knowledge and not a class credit. What McGonagall tells Harry in their career meeting is not the class requirments, but the areas of knowledge the best serve an Auror. That and the fact that you need 5 NEWTs. But the 5 NEWTs and 5 areas of knowledge are only logically connected, not literally. You need that bank of knowledge, but you may get it through various assorted combinations of NEWTs. Blah-blah-blah yada-yada-yada, I know you've heard me say all this before, but that's my story and I am sticking to it. > Carol continues: > > As for "high-pass level," I wonder whether that hyphen is in the > British edition or only the American one and whether the Brits on > the list interpret it as you're doing ("E" level) or as a high > number of students passing the exam, which is essentially the same > thing as expecting almost everyone to get at least an "A." > > Carol, hoping that last long sentence is clear > > Carol Asian_lovr2: This 'high-pass level' /thing/ has lead to a lot of confusion, so I am going to state it in the simplest terms- 1.) It may mean that the students are above average and get above average grades. They are mostly 'B' student rather than 'C' students. 2.) Or, it may mean that more people pass Snape's class than pass potions at say Beauxbatons. Snape has a higher Pass RATE. Illustration; at Hogwarts 90% of the students pass OWL Potions; at Beauxbatons 70% pass OWL-level Potions. I choose item '1.)' because Snape says that he expect every single student to pass. True, that is a high pass RATE, but he and Umbridge both indicate that the skill level is high, higher than typical. So I take 'level' to mean grade level, not pass rate. For what it's worth, indeed the USA edition says 'high-pass level', whereas the UK edition says 'high pass level'. I'm not sure what that tells us though. In conclusion - (bet you thought it would never come) Harry will pass OWL Potions, but he will not get 'Outstanding'. He will, however, do better than he expected. Harry will be in NEWT Potions class. Harry will continue to have Snape for a teacher, but this statement is not necessarily related to the statement above. Snape and Harry will gain a new grudging respect for each other. I think the Occlumency lessons showed them both a side of the other, that they had never considered before. I actually wonder if that wasn't the whole purpose of the Occlumency lessons, not so Harry would stop having dreams, but from an authoral perspective, so Harry and Snape could gain some insight to each other. This will not happen until Harry gets over blaming Snape for Sirius's death. I actually think statments to that effect were heat of the moment, and Harry will see things differently once he's had a chance to process the whole ordeal. IMO:The two key purposes of the Lessons are to introduce the reader to the concepts of Occlumency/Legilimency, and to give Harry and Snape insight into each other; teaching Harry 'mind blocking' was merely the excuse. Harry will continue with the DA Club (school wide, all houses), but the club will now be influenced by Snape. He will be like the faculty advisor. ...and a good time was had by all. Sorry, didn't mean to ramble on like that, but I couldn't restrain myself. Steve/asian_lovr2 From SnapesRaven at web.de Tue Jul 6 07:19:05 2004 From: SnapesRaven at web.de (SnapesRaven) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 09:19:05 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry LIVES! (was: prophecy wording) References: Message-ID: <002101c46329$855efba0$0202a8c0@henrike> No: HPFGUIDX 104535 Justine wrote: "[...] the prophecy (which was worded carefully by Trelawney and JKR) states that "either must die at the HAND (emphasis Carole's) of the other." This brings me back to Dumbledore's look of triumph in GoF. It is only after Harry tells him that Voldemort touched his, Harry's, face, that Dumbledore's face takes on this expression. Voldemort was, consequently, happy that touching Harry's face does not harm him. What he fails to realize, however, is that Harry is left unharmed as well. Harry does feel pain, but his head is already aching from the scar, and the scar gives Harry pain whenever Voldemort experiences emotion, the intensity of the pain varying with the intensity of the emotion. Imagine the strength of Voldemort's happiness when realizing (incorrectly) that Harry's touch will not kill him! Harry is not hurt, *certainly* not killed, from the touch of Voldemort's hand. Dumbledore is triumphant because *Harry did not die at Voldemort's HAND* and therefore Voldemort must be vulnerable to the touch of Harry's HAND [...] Now SnapesRaven: I like this way of looking at it. : ) But I also have another idea... didn't Wormtail contribute his HAND to Voldemort's restoration to a body in the GoF graveyard scene? So, what I'm thinking now is this: Having ingested unicorn blood (which provides you with "a cursed life, a half life" [Firenze, PS, don't know the exact place, sorry]), lived off another person's body (Squirrell's head... argh!) and things like that don't seem to leave much of an 'own' body to this person. So Voldemort can't simply let Harry die at HIS hand, because it isn't entirely his anymore. *triumphant smile if that turns out to be the case - however, it is a bit unlikely still: me being correct in such an important prospect *sighs*... SnapesRaven [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Jul 6 06:55:46 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 06:55:46 -0000 Subject: Is Mark Evans the half blood prince? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104536 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: Carol: > Even if one of Harry's parents gave birth to or fathered a child other > than Harry, that child couldn't be Mark Evans, who is ten years old in > OoP--five years younger than Harry, whose parents died when he was > fifteen months old. IOW, they died about four years before Mark Evans > was born. > > By my calculations, the closest he can be to Harry is about a second > cousin, though of course I could be wrong! At any rate, Mark lives in > a Muggle neighborhood and neither Harry nor Dudley has any clue that > he's anything other than a Muggle. My guess is that, like Lily, he's a > Muggleborn, not a half blood. But it's a safe bet we'll see him at > Hogwarts in HBP. Geoff: The following is a re-post of some thoughts I put together in message 85255 on this subject which might be of interest. "I have mentioned on a couple of occasions that when my father died in 1994 and I went through his address book to notify people, I "discovered" a family relative about whom I knew nothing; the lady concerned was a first cousin of my father and the link led back to my great grandparents. It is fairly obvious that Dumbledore was very close to James and Lily Potter. "'Naturally,' said Professor McGonagall. `James Potter told Dumbledore that Black would die rather than tell where they were, that Black was planning to go into hiding himself and yet, Dumbledore remained worried. I remember him offering to be the Potter's Secret-Keeper himself.'" (POA p.153). This implies very close friendship. So Dumbledore would know from conversations with Lily that Petunia was her nearest relative. But would it follow that he knew there were /no/ other relatives? Would the matter of more distant relatives of Lily have surfaced in conversation with Dumbledore? Do we discuss distant and half- forgotten family members with close friends? Not often. Dumbledore is intelligent and knowledgeable but not omniscient. To be fair, he may not be aware of the existence of other family members. Let's consider a similar situation to the one I experienced personally. Petunia's comments imply that the Evans were a magical family. "'But for my mother and father, oh no, it was Lily this and Lily that, they were proud of having a witch in the family'" (PS p.44). If you go back to, say, Lily's great-grandparents and trace back down other arms on the family tree, there are probably members of the family who Lily may not have remembered or who were distant enough either genealogically or geographically to not register consciously with her; hence the possibility of Mark Evans being a distant relative. As for the Little Whinging connection, I have already suggested that Mark's parents might be two squibs or a Muggle plus a squib. For this reason, they, like Arabella Figg, would not register at the Ministry as being in the area. A further question is, when does a young wizard become known to the Ministry? Would Mark Evans not become known by the Ministry until he gets a Hogwarts letter? Was Harry only known to the Ministry because of his special circumstances? "'We have no record of any witch or wizard living in Little Whinging, other than Harry Potter,' said Madam Bones at once. `That situation has always been closely monitored, given given past events.'" (OOTP p.131). So why is the link not known? Again, from my own experience. My wife began to track her relatives some years ago. About four years ago, when we had been living in the West of England for five years, we discovered that she had a second cousin living 30 miles away ? an hour's drive ? about whom we knew nothing; probably because her parents had several siblings and cousins and tracking them was a long business. It has been suggested that Petunia is a squib. She has obviously wanted to live an "ordinary" life with Vernon and disassociate herself with the magical connections of her sister and family. So she may have known that there were other branches of the family with magical connections and decided not to try to keep in touch or find out who they were. Hence, the Evans family including Mark arrive in Little Whinging unknown to the Dursleys and also not known to Dumbledore. This is, like all the speculation on the group, hypothetical. It could be confirmed or totally stood on its head by the next two books but it presents my thoughts for the case that Mark is related to Harry and also living in the neighbourhood." From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Mon Jul 5 21:33:00 2004 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 21:33:00 -0000 Subject: Return from the Underworld in Greek Mythology (Re: Sirius Black Poll) In-Reply-To: <20040705202807.74092.qmail@web90001.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104537 > Griffin782002 says: > > Well, as I have said I can't deny that he really might be dead. Nothing is clear yet. In her webchat J.K.R. didn't answer if Sirius will be back in other form. It is one of the reasons why I believe he might be back. And to the member that mentioned an example from other Mythologies. Katie: I have a wrenching feeling that JKR won't allow Sirius to come back, because it would show kids that death *isn't* permanent (not a lesson she'd want them to learn), but then again: WHERE'S SIRIUS'S BODY? In my experience (in JKR's books and others) when you don't have a body or conclusive proof that someone is dead (conclusive proof might be, say, the person went up in flames) it's a tip-off that she/he is going to come back. If Sirius was killed by Bellatrix, he *should* have left a body behind. If he simply tripped over the threshold, then we may well be due for an Orpheus/Eurydice adventure. (As someone --forget who, sorry-- pointed out, we haven't seen Fluffy for some time.) I'm clinging to this shred of hope! Katie who loves Griffin's Gandalf analogy, by the way From kailincj at msn.com Mon Jul 5 21:37:34 2004 From: kailincj at msn.com (Gwen) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 21:37:34 -0000 Subject: HBP Theory on Mugglenet Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104538 I just read a very intersting editorial on Mugglenet regarding the identity of the HBP. It brought to mind quotes from several JKR interviews. The actual editorial (in The Burrow section of Mugglenet and written by Corinne), poses the theory that Dudley is the Half-Blood Prince. It's quite an interesting read, but the salient points are these: a. Petunia is a squib b. She feared her child having magical powers and struck a bargain with Dumbledore: she would take Harry in if Dudley was essentially stricken from the wizarding world. c. Dudley was seriously affected by the dementors. Although Lupin says that even Muggles can sense them, I had the impression that they would not react to the extent that Dudley did. In re: the quotes I remembered, one was from a Barnes and Noble interview with JKR in March 1999. When asked what Dudley eventually does with his life, JKR responds "That is a question i would love to answer, but it will ruin some surprises." Then she goes on to say that Dudley's privileged existence will change for the worse in Book 4 (when The Diet strikes). The second was at a Harry Pottermania conference in Vancouver on Nov. 16, 2000. JKR said: "You should keep an eye on Dudley. It's probably too late for Aunt Petunia and Uncle Vernon." Check out the editorial on Mugglenet. It's quite good. From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Mon Jul 5 21:48:35 2004 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 21:48:35 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry and Hermione Foreshadowing in PoA movie? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104539 Big D: > If JKR intends to eventually pair off Hermione with Harry, instead > of Ron, then's she's done a masterful job of leading us the wrong > way, because almost all of the evidence I've ever seen supporting a > H/Hr ship is very easily explained in other ways, while several of > the clues pointing towards an eventual R/Hr ship are about as subtle > as getting hit in the head with a brick. Katie: As JKR says on her website: "'Does Hermione love Ron or Harry?' I can't believe that some of you haven't worked this one out yet, but I'm not going to answer because that would spoil the arguments, which I enjoy." Big D's words about R/Hr being "subtle as getting hit in the head with a brick" ring true to me. As Jen, I believe, said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. -Katie From RLD360 at aol.com Tue Jul 6 04:22:31 2004 From: RLD360 at aol.com (RLD360 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 00:22:31 EDT Subject: Speculations in the Potterverse... Message-ID: <15c.388ccdb9.2e1b8307@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104540 Some people will perceive this as preachy, and I apologize for that. It isn't my intent. It is, however, my opinion. Take it as you will. I felt the need to post this after reading the ongoing ping-pong match on various characters. Fascinating stuff, lots of theories on the whys and wheretofors of actions taken and things said. I've enjoyed reading all of these, btw. Personally, I'm not on any particular side of the fence when it comes to wether any of the characters are "good" or "bad." I think JKR has done a fabulous job in making everyone, starting with Harry, a nice shade of grey. From my perspective, that leaves a lot of room for personal interpretation of the facts we are given. Which is the point I'm now going to make...it's our perspective. Colored by our own experiences, intellect, and levels of compassion (compassion lit. "suffering with") or dislike for certain people and the situations they create or find themselves in. Writers are always given one basic rule to start from...write what you know. JKR has stated on various occassions that she has based a number of her characters on actual people she knows. They may now be in a magical setting, but the basis for them lies in everyday people and events, they are archetypes for humanity. I, for example, can see bits of myself in someone like Sirius. A character which, ironically enough, had to grow on me the way mold does on bread. I wouldn't say I'm a fan of his, but I can say that I relate to his experiences. I grew up in a home where I was (and still remain) the black (no pun intended) sheep. Now, I find myself back in the family home because circumstances beyond my control have brought it on me. I feel very much like a prisoner, forced to relive every day the things I've spent a lot of time trying to forget, or at the very least, be at peace with. The years of whittling away at my anger until it was manageable, the years of rebuilding my soul, suddenly falling back into the place that I wished never to see again. I can see myself in Sirius' behavior, good and bad. I can be all the things that he is disliked for, and I can be all the things that he is loved for. And I can be everything in between. It all depends on my choices and how they are perceived. In the end, only I truly know what motivated them. And even then I could be wrong, fooling myself. My point in all of this as relates to the Potterverse? 1.) I could be entirely wrong in my perceptions of the character's words or actions. 2.) I could be entirely right in my perceptions of the character's words or actions. Only the one who wrote it, JKR, actually knows the intent behind it. Or not. And by this I'm not saying that speculating on various characters or incidents is wrong or anything of the sort! I do that myself all the time. I'm only human, afterall. Just that we should have respect for everyone's opinion, even if it differs drastically from ours. Don't be condescending, don't be patronizing, don't be a smart ass. Just have some respect and compassion for your fellow posters. It makes everything go better. In the immortal words of Stan Lee, 'nuff said. "RLD360" From srobles at caribe.net Tue Jul 6 00:33:45 2004 From: srobles at caribe.net (anasazi_pr) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 00:33:45 -0000 Subject: Harry uses Hermione's wand to kill Volemort? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104541 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hermionekitten9" wrote: > Sorry, excuse my ignorance... but I don't recall a time when Harry > ever uses Hermione's wand, more or less a time when he achieves > a "powerful spell" from using her wand... in the books or in the > third movie, could you elaborate? Actually, that's not the scene I was refering to. The scene I was refering to occurs in the shrieking shack. After Snape comes into the room as in holding Sirius and Lupin at wandpoint, Harry reaches around Hermione's waist and grabs the wand she has tucked on her right pocket (there's even a closeup of the shot). She doesn't notice, but Ron does and he reaches up and pulls Hermione's sleeve so Harry can get better access. When Harry uses Hermione's wand for an Expeliarmus spell, he manages to knock Snape several feet from the ground and throw him on the other side of the room, unconcious. This is the same result we get get in the books when ALL THREE OF THEM (R/Hr/H) cast Expeliarmus SIMULTANEOUSLY on Snape. The post originally belonged to the PoA foreshadowings subject, but it was changed by the list elves. I just thought it was a very strange change to make (it wouldn't have been so difficult to replicate the scene from the book!), and thought that might have been one of the things that gave JKR's chills. Anasazi P.S. There are many screenshots of this scene around the web. I'm sure a little search can help to refresh the memory. From jonathan at techtobiz.com Tue Jul 6 05:06:01 2004 From: jonathan at techtobiz.com (Jonathan House) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 23:06:01 -0600 Subject: HBP, GG, half-blood? References: <1089082155.10009.45534.m17@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <014001c46316$f2017a70$6500a8c0@Viking> No: HPFGUIDX 104542 A while back there was a discussion going about the identity of the HBP (last week around digest 4835 or so). I just finished OotP for the third time this evening and noticed a couple of interesting points (that may have already been pointed out). First, during the fight at the MoM Bellatrix calls Harry a half-blood. Second, when Dumbledore is discussing the prophecy with Harry, he also states that Voldemort (upon hearing the partial prophecy) decides to kill Harry, choosing him because he is a half-blooded wizard like himself (as opposed to Neville who is a full-blooded wizard). Two points I take from that. First, in every other instance I can remember half-bloods refer to wizards with one wizard parent, and one muggle parent. But there is no doubt that Harry's parents are both wizards. Now Lily (if I am remembering my information correctly) is the child of muggle parents, thus being a "mud-blood" (pardon the expression). But does her muggle parentage qualify Harry as a half-blood, even though she was definitely a wizard? Second point - Some of the discussion last week centered around GG as the HBP. I still think that this is true. In light of what I have just read, I also think that there will be some sort of revealing that Harry is a direct descendant of GG, thus passing on the title to Harry. Cheers, Jonathan From Irisheyes1221 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 6 04:46:35 2004 From: Irisheyes1221 at hotmail.com (irisheyes1221221) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 04:46:35 -0000 Subject: Question about Ginny Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104543 Do we know Ginny's birthday? I don't think it is in canon, but has JKR ever mentioned it? "irisheyes1221221" From adanabbett at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 00:53:44 2004 From: adanabbett at yahoo.com (Adan) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 00:53:44 -0000 Subject: Animagus & Patronus Symbolism Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104544 There have been a great many posts with snippets of what the different animals could mean, but I decided to do a little research (though only with reference materials I have on hand) and put them together in one place. ANIMAGUS FORMS and THEIR SYMBOLS SIRIUS/DOG: ~Every mythology has an association of the dog with death, Hell and the Underworld. The primary mythic role of the dog is as a psychopomp: a conductor of souls to the Underworld, a leader or guide of souls. Having been companion in the light of the living day, the dog becomes the guide through darkness and death. However, dogs do more than simply guide the dead. They also act as the intermediaries between the two worlds and as spokesmen for the living to question the dead. Although dogs descend to the Underworld, more often they are its guardians. ~In the Celtic world, the dog was associated with the warrior caste. In Brittany, the 'Black Dog of the Mots d'Arree represent the damned. ~"The Irish remembered the dog's connection with death and maintained that true curses could be cast with a dog's help. Among the Celts, cainte, 'dog,' denoted a satiric bard with magic power to speak curses that would come true." (Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets, p.245) ~Alchemists "used the analogy of the dog being devoured by the wolf for the purification of gold by antimony, the penultimate stage of the 'Great Work'... Simultaneously, dog and wolf, sage - or saint - purifies himself by devouring himself; in other words, by an act of self-sacrifice he finally reaches the last stage of spiritual self- mastery." (Penguin Dictionary of Symbols, p.303) Adan: Will Sirius help guide Harry? Will he be the intermediary for James or Lily to give information to Harry? As has been theorized by others could Sirius return as a dog - perhaps aiding Harry with a spell? Oh, I wish I still had my alchemy texts. JAMES/STAG: ~Often compared to the tree of life, symbolizing fecundity and the rhythms of growth and rebirth. ~Herald of daylight and guide to the light of the Sun. Furthermore, in some traditions, the stag is regarded as an intercessor between Heaven and Earth. ~Stags are also mentioned as symbols of longevity, but more particularly as those of prosperity. The Chinese attribute aphrodisiac properties to the antlers or a strengthening of the yang- somewhat important in that it also has use in techniques to gain immortality. ~Stags are prominent in Celtic myth and without in depth research it is best left to confine the symbolism to longevity and plenty. One legend in particular has St Patrick changing "himself and his companions into stags to escape the trap laid by the pagan King Loegaire. He succeeded in so doing thanks to a magical practice called feth fiada, normally used to confer invisibility."(Penguin Dictionary of Symbols, p.922) ~The stag is used by writers and artists to alternately symbolize swiftness, melancholy humour, prudence, ardor, hearing and lyric poetry. ~In Holy Scripture, the stag slays serpents, using its breath to draw them from their lairs. ~"The stag is often associated with the unicorn, and is then the alchemical symbol for mercury. A plate illustrating Lambsprinck's masterpiece, the 14th C. Philosopher's Stone, depicts these two creatures face to face in the undergrowth. The poem which accompanies this third figure reveals that the stag symbolizes mercury (the male aspect) and the spirit, while the unicorn symbolizes the sulphur (the female aspect) and the soul, while the forest is salt and the body." (PDoS, p. 923) Adan: James has already conferred invisibility to Harry via his cloak. Will James intercede in the Otherworld on someone's behalf - perhaps allowing Harry and/or Sirius to return to the living? Plus, the more I read, the more I agree with someone else's idea that Lily's patronus is a Unicorn. I can't remember who, but good going on that one! PETER/RAT: ~Often regarded as the image of avarice and greed, of theft and misappropriation of riches. Many mythical instances of the rat are favorable, but it has been unable to overcome being seen as frightening and even infernal. ~Often associated with serpents and moles. Adan: So, who is the mole? Or is there another spy? Or could we substitute ferret(Malfoy)? I also did some looking at the patronus forms and their symbols, but what I found did not lead me to many great conclusions. However, maybe someone brighter than I can see something in them. PATRONUS FORMS and THEIR SYMBOLS: HARRY/STAG: See James HERMIONE/OTTER: ~In Celtic lore, the symbolism of the otter complements that of the dog. Evidence of the role of conductor of souls comes from a Romanian fold song. ~ The Ojibwa Indians believe that the messenger of the Great Spirit revealed the most sublime secrets to the otter. The otter is an initiating spirit which kills and restores to life. Adan: Probably this symbolism is not important. I believe JKR has said that she just likes otters. CHO/SWAN: ~Its whiteness, strength and grace is seen as a living manifestation of light, and of nobility and valour. ~It is said that when swans die they sing their most beautiful song. ~Swans mate for life. ~In Celtic literature, inhabitants of the Otherworld who wish to enter the terrestrial world often take a swan's shape and generally travel in pairs linked by gold or silver chain. Many instances of shapeshifting between human and swan form are present. ~"Alchemists have always regarded it as an emblem of mercury, being of the same colour and as mobile. It's volatility, too, is displayed by its wings. It is an expression of the marriage of opposites (Fire and Water)..." (PDoS, p.955) Adan: Swans mate for life... could she continue to mourn Cedric, leaving Harry available for somebody else? Somebody better. From garyfredogal at hotmail.com Tue Jul 6 03:24:25 2004 From: garyfredogal at hotmail.com (garyfredogal at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 03:24:25 -0000 Subject: The FAQ says "Lily first" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104545 Carol: > In other words, this debate shouldn't even be occurring because > 1) the FAQ is right, and 2) the error by the American editor has > been corrected in recent reprints of the book. Please check out > her official site if you still think that "James first" is > correct. Tina: Since there seems to be all this controversy over who comes out of the wand and who died first, I have to object to the Lily first theory. I have just reread my copy of SS and on US Version pg 294 it reads: "How touching..."it hissed. "I always value bravery...Yes, boy, your parents were brave...I killed your father first, and he put up a courageous fight...but your mother needn't have died...she was trying to protect you...Now give me the Stone unless you want her to have died in vain." Since SS is the same as PS only without some of the British terms that are unfamiliar to some, I am sure that would more than likely be the reason why the editor switched it around in book 5 is so it matched the above paragraph. This is nothing against Jo, I am sure that originally it was one way and she changed her mind somewhere in the middle of writing and failed to change the beginning. It happens quite often. From marnyhelfrich at comcast.net Tue Jul 6 01:49:23 2004 From: marnyhelfrich at comcast.net (Marny Helfrich) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 21:49:23 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince References: Message-ID: <001d01c462fb$76a9cf50$8e2f8c45@mynewputer> No: HPFGUIDX 104546 > Carol wrote: >Someone on this list said that Vernon protests >too much. I think Petunia does. IMO, she's not >a witch and she can't be a Squib, Does anyone think it is possible that Petunia was born with magical potential and chose not to use it? That would fit in with the whole theme of your choices, not your blood, controlling your destiny. We know from Collin and Dennis Creevy that it's not unheard of for two magical children to come from the same Muggle family. What if Petunia received a Hogwart's letter on her 11th birthday and refused to go, preferring to have a "normal" life among Muggles and to that end married the must mugglish of muggles, Uncle Vernon. Maybe that's the secret hold that DD has over her (although I don't think it's clear that it's his voice in the Howler; wouldn't Harry recognize that?), that he'll "out" her. Marny, who doesn't believe that there is any hope for Uncle Vernon or Dudley, but believes that Aunt Petunia could still be revealed to be a good person. From aandj at labyrinth.net.au Tue Jul 6 03:58:04 2004 From: aandj at labyrinth.net.au (Jocelyn Grunow) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 14:58:04 +1100 Subject: Petunia doth protest overly much In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104547 on 6/7/2004 12:39 PM, justcarol67 at justcarol67 at yahoo.com wrote: > Someone on this list said that Vernon protests too much. I think > Petunia does. IMO, she's not a witch and she can't be a Squib, but she > knows more about the WW than most Muggles, and she's keeping that > knowledge from Vernon as much as from Harry. Petunia grew up with a witch sister! In the holidays Lily came home and her proud parents probably interrogated her (in the nicest sense) over the dinnertable about her new life. "So honey, what does that mean... you're top of the class in Charms? What do you actually do in Charms?" "So when you say that he was sent to Azkaban, what happens to him, sweetie? What's a Dementor?" Petunia could have quite an extensive knowledge (for a muggle) just from this sort of conversation. I am still puzzling over the "Remember my last" in OotP though. There was some bargain struck between her and DD, no doubt. We know she agreed to keep Harry but what did DD agree to as his side of the bargain? She certainly seemed terrified of the agreement being broken! I haven't really found any of the propositions advanced so far convincing. I would quite like the 'Dudderkins is a wizard' theory if I didn't think that DD would consider suppressing a child's magic potential to be deeply unethical. Jocelyn From aandj at labyrinth.net.au Tue Jul 6 04:07:19 2004 From: aandj at labyrinth.net.au (Jocelyn Grunow) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 15:07:19 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Potions O.W.L - Pass vs High-Pass In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104548 on 6/7/2004 1:14 PM, justcarol67 at justcarol67 at yahoo.com wrote: >> In my humble opinion, to give Harry an 'Outstanding' is the same as >> assuming Ron, Dean, and Seamus will all get 'Outstanding' grades. >> Which in turn somewhat negates those student who truly do outstanding >> work like Hermione and perhaps Draco. Hermione must surely get a >> better grade than Harry. I agree with your inerpretation of high-pass as meaning Exceeds Expectations Regarding Hermione's grades, it may be that she is simply so far off the scale that she can't really be judged under the standard system. To use an analogy sometimes used in another context: It's like trying to measure the height of a pro basketball player with a 5-foot rule! All we can tell is that they are over 5 feet tall - not whether they are 5'4 or 7'6. If everyone over standard X gets an Outstanding, the the fact that Hermione's O is so far above the others is just one of those facts of life. Everyone knows she is working at a higher standard, but she doesn't fit the normal scale which is used for these marks. Jocelyn From aandj at labyrinth.net.au Tue Jul 6 04:10:38 2004 From: aandj at labyrinth.net.au (Jocelyn Grunow) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 15:10:38 +1100 Subject: Sirius / Ron as Dumbledore / Bullies In-Reply-To: <02f201c4629b$3070faa0$8e2f8c45@mynewputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104549 on 6/7/2004 1:20 AM, Marny Helfrich at marnyhelfrich at comcast.net wrote: > I do think that the fact that Sirius was able to buy it "with money from my > Gringott's vault" without attracting attention (since he was on the lam at > the time) is one of the bits of "magical hand-waving" in the book that > doesn't bear up if you think about it too much. I just thought that the goblins ran their banking system much as the Swiss do. As long as he had the right key they didn't care what crimes he may or may not have committed. Getting to and from the bank may have been more problematical. on 6/7/2004 12:25 PM, vmonte at vmonte at yahoo.com wrote: > born as the seventh month dies = The month that Ron is transported > back in time and becomes the alias Dumbledore So - in this theory, WHO is Aberforth? Fred? Percy? The mind boggles! on 5/7/2004 9:55 PM, lavaluvn at lavaluvn at yahoo.com wrote: > Just out of curiosity, have any of you ever tried to stop a bully in > action? Yes - I have, in my first year at University. I know my brother did at school too. In both cases we succeeded. I am not sure of the details of my brother's confrontation except that it was more physical than mine. I didn't think the list elves would like me to get too off-topic so I have send the rest of my post on this topic to you personally. Jocelyn From aandj at labyrinth.net.au Tue Jul 6 04:19:20 2004 From: aandj at labyrinth.net.au (Jocelyn Grunow) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 15:19:20 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 22 - St. Mungo's Hospital In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104550 on 6/7/2004 9:37 AM, hebridean_black_dragn at heretherebedragons at gmail.com wrote: >I was also less than thrilled with Molly, who doesn't come to his >defense when Moody says they *all* know there's something funny about >Harry. In fact, her response almost makes me think that she agrees, >but that since Dumbledore was worried about Harry, then perhaps *that* >mitigates Harry's "funny-ness" somehow. OTOH - I thought that Molly's seeing Harry as one of the dead when she was fighting the boggart was very strong evidence for her regarding him as part of the family. I actually found that very touching, and it made me a little more sympathetic when she let her mamabear get out of control and become so annoying during OotP Jocelyn From srobles at caribe.net Tue Jul 6 00:56:47 2004 From: srobles at caribe.net (anasazi_pr) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 00:56:47 -0000 Subject: JKR's chills In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104551 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aggiepaddy" wrote: > 2) That the R/Hr Ship is-a sailing! Whenever she gets a chance she > holds his hand/ hugs him etc. I know the H/Hr shippers will say the > same but I feel (and got the impression from the books esp. GoF) that > it would go R/Hr. What will she gets chills from a thing that, according to your post, she has already shown in the last two books? According to her, she saw clues that foreshadow books six and seven, which I believe means is something most of us (or all of us) haven't seen and/or imagined. And about the "Whenever she gets a chance she holds his hand/ hugs him" line... I just remember the Buckbeak hand holding (when Harry was first introduced to Beaky) and the post execution hug. Were there others? > I guess we see what we want to see more than > anything else! To the poster (sorry, can't remember who) who > mentioned about Hermione falling on Harry in the S/Shack, when > Hermione falls on H, he is facing the ground, surely if this was an > indication, he'd be facing her? Just MHO I seriously believe this was purely done as a slapstick moment... but I also remember a line from GoF that follows a similar imagery: "I just want to know what Snape did with his first chance, if he's on his second one," said Harry grimly, and his cushion, to his very great surprise, flew straight across the room and landed neatly on top of Hermione's." (GoF, Chapter 26: The Second Task). Who knows? > 3) Hermione becomes a werewolf!! Lupin bites her during one of his > monthly outbursts! She bayes at Lupin in the film and not in the ? >book Oh, glad to know I wasn't the only one that thought so. I wouldn't put it past JKR to make our dear Hermione a werewolf, specially considering how alike she's to Lupin (at least, I thought so before the whole Marauder's flashback in OoTP). Anasazi From mayeaux45 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 02:46:35 2004 From: mayeaux45 at yahoo.com (mayeaux45) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 02:46:35 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry and Hermione Foreshadowing in PoA movie? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104552 A.J. I can definitely understand why you and many others would believe that all (or if not most) of the evidence in the books to be pointing towards R/Hr. That's what I thought as well! But JKR is known for being secretive about the outcome of many characters (pulling you one way and then jerking you another...Sirius' death for example). So my question is...why make it so blatantly obvious from as early as book 3 and movies 2 & 3 that it's going to be a Ron and Hermione ending? As far as I know, JKR has NEVER given information up that easily about possible outcomes of her characters. "mayeaux45" From ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 02:34:53 2004 From: ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com (ohneill_2001) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 02:34:53 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry and Hermione Foreshadowing in PoA movie? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104553 I'm an H/Hr shipper, and I've read the posts in this thread. I'm not really responding to anyone in particular, but I do have a few comments. For my own part, I will gladly concede that, in the movie, the R/Hr ship appears to be well on its way. As for H/Hr, I really didn't see much evidence in the movie to support it (some of the items listed here were things that I missed; others I simply wouldn't attach much significance to). So am I throwing in the towel and joining the R/H club? No way! I have only two things to say in response to all of this. First, while I agree that the R/Hr ship is more obvious than the H/Hr ship in the books as well as in the movies, the overtness that exists in the movies simply is not justified by the books. The most obvious R/Hr moments in the movies (the handshake at the end of COS, the awkward scene at Hogsmeade outside the Shrieking Shack, and the nauseating hug as Buckbeak was getting executed) are not even present in the books. Secondly, regardless of the movies, there is plenty of evidence (much of it subtle, but definitely there), *in the books*, that Hermione might prefer Harry, and that is left largely out of the movies. I'm not saying that she definitely does, or that H/Hr will definitely happen, but I think it's fair to say that there is enough evidence in the books that she has feelings for Harry that the issue will have to be addressed at some point, regardless of who she ends up with. I guess I can sum all of this up by saying that yes, I agree that the POA movie strongly implies R/Hr, but that doesn't change my view of the situation at all. From lavaluvn at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 02:37:06 2004 From: lavaluvn at yahoo.com (lavaluvn) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 02:37:06 -0000 Subject: Some Serious points in favour of Sirius In-Reply-To: <02f201c4629b$3070faa0$8e2f8c45@mynewputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104554 Marny wrote: > But in the book he gives Harry the firebolt long before he attacks > them at the Shrieking Shack and long before Harry saves him from > the dementors, right? He sends it to him for Christmas, after the > attack on the Fat Lady (which was on Halloween), but before the > "attack" on Ron/Scabbers in the dorm (using the stolen passwords), > which was after the match in which Harry takes down Malfoy et al > with his Patronus. You are absolutely right, my bad! I never even saw the original post about the Firebolt being an "apology", just jumped right in the middle. An obvious and embarassing case of movie contamination. After not posting for so long I guess I went a little overboard. Thanks for setting it straight, Andromeda From drednort at alphalink.com.au Tue Jul 6 08:22:21 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 18:22:21 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Potions O.W.L - Pass vs High-Pass In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40EAEDDD.12332.2264EE8@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 104555 On 6 Jul 2004 at 15:07, Jocelyn Grunow wrote: > on 6/7/2004 1:14 PM, justcarol67 at justcarol67 at yahoo.com wrote: > > >> In my humble opinion, to give Harry an 'Outstanding' is the same as > >> assuming Ron, Dean, and Seamus will all get 'Outstanding' grades. > >> Which in turn somewhat negates those student who truly do outstanding > >> work like Hermione and perhaps Draco. Hermione must surely get a > >> better grade than Harry. > > I agree with your inerpretation of high-pass as meaning Exceeds Expectations > > Regarding Hermione's grades, it may be that she is simply so far off the > scale that she can't really be judged under the standard system. To use an > analogy sometimes used in another context: It's like trying to measure the > height of a pro basketball player with a 5-foot rule! All we can tell is > that they are over 5 feet tall - not whether they are 5'4 or 7'6. > > If everyone over standard X gets an Outstanding, the the fact that > Hermione's O is so far above the others is just one of those facts of life. > Everyone knows she is working at a higher standard, but she doesn't fit the > normal scale which is used for these marks. This really does seem fairly likely to me. I work with gifted kids - most particularly, exceptionally and profoundly gifted children, and this is a recurring issue for some of these kids in their teens when having to work under standardised testing conditions. Sometimes the marking scale just doesn't go high enough to work out how well they really did - and letter grade systems are especially problematic in this regard. Numerically we know Hermione has gone beyond normal marks before. In Philosopher's Stone: "'Not if I can help it,' said Hermione grimly. 'Flitwick told me in secret that I got a hundred and twelve percent on his exam. They're not throwing me out after that.'" In Prisoner of Azkaban: "As the Hogwarts Express pulled out of the station the next mornIng, Hermione gave Harry and Ron some surprising news. 'I went to see Professor McGonagall this morning, just before breakfast. I've decided to drop Muggle Studies.' 'But you passed your exam with three hundred and twenty percent!' said Ron." If an 'O' is awarded for marks of over, say, 90%, and Harry gets 90% and Hermione gets 180%, they'd still end up with the same mark (-8 And we have indications that in the Wizarding World, marks like this can exist. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 02:01:15 2004 From: ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com (ohneill_2001) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 02:01:15 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry Will Not Die.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104556 ohneill_2001: (although the idea of Harry/Luna > > doesn't > > quite work for me, and I'm not even sure why...) pandrea100: > Because she fancies Ron? I mean, she clearly does. Not that > anything will necessarily happen. But it might give Hermione a > jolt. I agree that it was clear early in OoP that she fancied Ron; however, there was the scene at the end where she had the connection with Harry, and I'm still not sure what to make of that. It could indicate nothing more than that they have some things in common, and that she could be an important friend, or it could indicate that Harry/Luna is on the horizon. Like I said, I'm rooting against it; H/Hr is my clear favorite ship, with Harry/Ginny a distant second. pandrea100 > > We'll see what > > happens with Cho; she may still have a role to play in the story, > but > > right now I don't think her romantic future with Harry looks all > that > > bright. > Me neither. It's over. I agree, with the caveat that coming from JKR, nothing would completely shock me. From gelite67 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 02:45:09 2004 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 02:45:09 -0000 Subject: CoS clues to Books 6 & 7 analysis (Ginny) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104557 Diana wrote: > Ginny is present during the confrontation (though out cold and near > death) and is the reason Harry went down into the Chamber in the > first place; he wanted to save her. Could Harry's desire to save > Ginny lead him to the final battle with Voldemort? > vivian responds: > I think that Ginny is going to be important at the end as well. > JKR has also given us small clues about Ginny throughout the books. > Have you noticed that neither Hermione or Ron have ever met Voldemort? > But that Ginny has? I think this is key. I'm not sure why yet. > I think Harry should talk to Ginny. They were pen pals for a whole > year... There is also the fact that Ginny is a red-headed, and so was Harry's mother, Lily, although a different shade of red, I believe. I think that Draco, bless his twisted little heart, should fall for Ginny, who is, after all, a pureblood. She could pretend to be his girlfriend to get information out of him. This would give Harry even more to worry about. "gelite67" From gelite67 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 02:38:24 2004 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 02:38:24 -0000 Subject: Fawkes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104558 I thought I read that Dumbledore's phoenix, Fawkes, gave the feathers for Voldemort's and Harry's wands. I don't know what to make of this. Any theories? "gelite67" From adanabbett at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 01:02:39 2004 From: adanabbett at yahoo.com (Adan) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 01:02:39 -0000 Subject: CoS versus the Dark Mark (was Re: Sirius,Snape,Lily,CoS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104559 > Snow: > What if only the Tom Riddle portion of Voldemort was transferred > to Harry that night at Godric's Hollow? Harry isn't tied > to Voldemort just to Tom Riddle who is in turn connected with > Voldemort. So it is like three separate entities that are > all connected. Therefore there may very well be three people > involved in the prophecy: Harry, Tom and Voldemort. > > " And either (Harry or Tom) must die at the hand of the other > (Voldemort) for neither (Harry or Tom) can live while the other > (Voldemort) survives " Adan here, somewhat confused: Okay, I think y'all are saying that, basically, there is a bit of Tom in both Harry and Voldemort. That that is their connection. And I can see that. Really, I can. I just don't see how it is to be either Harry or Tom that must die. Would killing Tom in one, automatically kill him in the other? And then, if Tom is what is keeping Voldemort alive, then that would kill Voldemort? I'm so confused. From chinaskinotes at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 6 02:01:11 2004 From: chinaskinotes at sbcglobal.net (chinaskisnotes) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 02:01:11 -0000 Subject: Snape Question In-Reply-To: <001801c46295$cca374d0$9162d1d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104560 Cathy wrote: > In GoF, Chap 30, "The Pensieve" DD says "Severus Snape was indeed > a Death Eater. However, he rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's > downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk. He is now no > more a Death Eater than I am." > > Of course he was a member of the Order...left to be a DE, then returned > to the Order. The "rejoined our side" is the second chance FakeMoody > was on about in "The Egg and the Eye" chapter of GoF: 'Course Dumbledore > trusts you [to Snape],' growled Moody, 'He's a trusting man, isn't he? > Believes in second chances.' > > What we don't know yet, from the books at any rate, is why he joined the > Order in the first place (seems like an odd thing for Snape to do, to me), > left the Order in the second place, and why he left the DE's in the third > place. If Moody in GoF, who is a fake Moody, knows of this 'second chance', and this second chance is a switch of sides, then Voldemort knows about this already. Snape is going to have quite a job, Occlumens or not, making him forget this kind of double crossing (this is why it would be a great risk, I suppose, but too much double crossing would make him suspect on both sides). Is it possible Snape's job is to buddy up to Lucius Malfoy, not necessarily Voldemort? Forge a trust with Lucius over the years and spy on him, one of the center DEs? This would make his cruelty to Harry and favoritism of Draco a necessity. Also, speaking of when Snape became a member of the order, JKR went out of her way to tell us how long teachers had been at Hogwarts. Trelawney 16 years, prophecy time, before Harry's birth. Snape, 14 years, after Harry's parent's death. Could he have been the one to alert DD to their deaths? "chinaskisnotes" From cressida_tt at hotmail.com Tue Jul 6 07:01:41 2004 From: cressida_tt at hotmail.com (cressida_tt) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 07:01:41 -0000 Subject: Language in OOTP less Americanized? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104561 Marny wrote: > The language in this book (and I have the Scholastic edition that > was available the first night, yes I went to the bookstore at > midnight) seems less "Americanized" that in the others. Just in > what I have re-read today I have noticed "hosepipe," Ron calling > Harry "mate," and a reference to Harry's "fringe" (bangs). > > I wonder if they were in such a hurry to get the book out that > they didn't take the time to change everything? I wonder if this is now because JK Rowling herself now has more power over what her publishers do - when the first books were published she was a complete unknown whereas now of course she is one of the best known writers ever. I have seen her comment in interviews that she resented changes made to the earlier books in order to give them 'US appeal'. Perhaps now she is in a position to resist this whereas when the earlier books were published she did not. We know that she kept quite a close rein on what Warner Brothers did to the films in terms of resisting big name US stars in favour of British actors. Cressida From cressida_tt at hotmail.com Tue Jul 6 08:55:13 2004 From: cressida_tt at hotmail.com (cressida_tt) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 08:55:13 -0000 Subject: Question about Ginny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104562 "irisheyes1221221" wrote: > Do we know Ginny's birthday? I don't think it is in canon, but has > JKR ever mentioned it? Cressida wrote: No, JK Rowling has never mentioned this in any of her interviews or chats, of this I am quite sure. Certainly the question does not appear to have actually been asked in any of the interviews. There are many ideas in the fandom though about when her birthday falls ranging from the Summer Solstice to St George's Day with long complex theories to support them. There was a very good thread at sugarquill.net which covered quite a few of them but sadly I am not able to provide a link to it. Cressida From mayeaux45 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 03:11:38 2004 From: mayeaux45 at yahoo.com (mayeaux45) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 03:11:38 -0000 Subject: Movie PoA Foreshadows Books 6 & 7 (Dead Draco) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104563 SSSusan: > I'll wager my guess that it's something Hermione did to get > Buckbeak to MOVE when he was stubbornly staying put. "Here, > Beaky!" she said. "Have a nice DEAD FERRET." Remember when > Crouch!Moody turned Draco into a ferret? SSSusan, Thank you for pointing out what I meant by saying that Draco Malfoy will die soon! That's exactly the scene I was referring to in the movie. "mayeaux45" From mayeaux45 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 03:08:52 2004 From: mayeaux45 at yahoo.com (mayeaux45) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 03:08:52 -0000 Subject: Movie PoA Foreshadows Books 6 & 7 (Hermione's Choice) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104564 Kitten wrote: > I don't understand the statement "Hermione's choice and no one > else's" aren't there *two* people in a relationship? Kitten, Sorry about that! Maybe I didn't explain as well as I should have about the whole Hermione's "choice" thing. It wasn't meant to seem as if Ron and Harry are waiting on bated breath to hear who she "chooses". It was more just the inner workings of my own head that I failed to write down. What I meant was that Hermione is a great judge of character and feelings (especially when it comes to Harry), but also Ron (even though with Ron it's more obvious because he tends to wear his heart on his sleeve)...Basically what I mean to say is that Hermione knows "her boys" really well. She would know who likes her more than a friend. If Harry or Ron chose to put their feelings elsewhere I'm sure she would be able to tell (as always)! But if that were not to be the case in books 6 & 7, it WOULD ultimately be Hermione's choice. Whether Harry starts to have the whole "spider-man complex" and decide it's too dangerous for them to be together or if Ron is too chicken to follow through...that would be THEIR choice! "mayeaux45" From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue Jul 6 10:20:39 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 10:20:39 -0000 Subject: two crazy theories: Harry will die and HBP In-Reply-To: <20040705102333.3934.qmail@web25103.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104565 Hi Hans! Valky here. As you know I am always glad to hear from you on the boards because I truly enjoy your illuminating insight into the Alchemy connections to the series. Foremostly I just wanted to say this is your best post yet! Hans wrote: > The reason my theories are crazy is because they contradict themselves or are physically impossible, and it's crazy to propound theories like that, isn't it? > > Right at the end of my essay I state: "The emotional ego is situated in the inner sanctuary of heart, the temple-tomb of Venus. Harry will no doubt enter this room and, like CRC, he will be punished by becoming a gatekeeper (and yet coming home)." > > Here the temple-tomb of Venus is represented in HP as the Room of Love in the MoM. > > But in the next paragraph I write: "Harry will pass through the Gate of Saturn ? not to die the ordinary death of us who are shackled to the wheel of reincarnation, but the death of total self- sacrifice.." > Valky now: Actually if you nip over to another thread, (I started, *blush*) message 104524 should put you on it, you'll see the canon based theory that I just proposed which is fundamentally this very statement fleshed out a little. Basically it suggests that Harry and Voldemort actually only have one life between them and that Harry must take it by restoring the natural balance to it and then make it his. I believe this kind of echoes the proposition in your essay that the prophecy line , neither can live while the other survives, is relevant to the statement about the self of matter and the self of spirit being unable to connect from the Alchemical wedding. When Harry actually claims his life back from Voldemort in this way, I feel he will find he cannot keep it for himself. I believe that this is where the strong love and compassion that Harry IS and feels comes into play. He wont keep the life, although it is his own, there will be something about it that makes it simply impossible in Harrys selfless heart to concieve of doing. Ibelieve this is why he will choose the Gate of Saturn and claim the ultimate victory in his own symbolic death. > So what I'm saying is that Harry will die, and yet he'll become gate-keeper. I must admit I couldn't visualise how, in a practical sense, Harry could be made gate-keeper, until my wife pointed out Hagrid's official title, which he tells Harry when they first meet in PS: "Keeper of the Keys and Grounds at Hogwarts". That's it! Harry will become Keeper of the Keys, i.e. Gatekeeper at Hogwarts. He will take over Hagrid's job! > Valky again: You know, I totally love this! It is the Perfect Job for Harry he is such a humble and gentle person this is why he so admires his Great Big Friend Hagrid. I reckon Harry would adore the quiet unremarkable yet 'hand that rocks the cradle'-powerful existence that Hagrid lives. Its brilliant! and its perfect and it is an awesome reward for the boy who lived. Just two things, 1. In the Alchemical Wedding the former Gatekeeper claims to have specific relationship with CR, what do you make of this? Also how would you figure the colour Blue which is a significant colour to the former gatekeeper into Hagrid? 2. Again in the Alchemical Wedding the former gatekeeper hands the *bonds* of his position to CR, it is both an honour and a kind of prison, which describes Hagrids position perfectly. I just know Harry would take it and in the AW this position can only be taken by choice. I only remember that the former gatekeeper is freed when CR decides to take the position, is there anything more you can tell me about that? In other words what will happen to Hagrid? Hans again: > The reason I feel inspired to tell you this is because just the last few posts have been very interesting in their theories about the Gate of Saturn (the archway with the veil)! There was an extremely interesting post about Greek mythology, and how people have passed through the Gate of Saturn and come back, e.g. Orpheus, Hercules and others. We also had that startling fact about the pomegranate juice! Valky: I missed the Pomegranate Juice one. :-S What i have to say about this is I have always believed Harry would see the other side of the veil, somehow. But I think it will not be in book six, what I do think will be in HBP I would really like to discuss but at this point it will take too long. Hans Again: > > Second theory: the trio is the Half Blood Prince. > I've already introduced this theory in my post No. 104096. I referred to the Prodigal Son, and to the fact that JKR always lists the trio in the same order. She never varies: H, R and H. And is it a coincidence that HRH stands for His/Her Royal Highness? > Valky: By Jove Hans! You know I am bad at arithmetic when in a year of looking at HRH on the boards and automatically reading it as His Royal Highness then "doh" slapping my forehead when I realise that it wasn't meant that way, and in three weeks of reading HRH and HBP posts I didn't put 1 and 1 together to make 2 (um 3 I mean lol) Yes! Yes! I know you have something here! I just don't know what. I'll be back when I have got it. Best to You Hans from Valky From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Jul 6 10:39:42 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 10:39:42 -0000 Subject: The FAQ says "Lily first" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104566 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, garyfredogal at h... wrote: > Tina: > > Since there seems to be all this controversy over who comes out of > the wand and who died first, I have to object to the Lily first > theory. I have just reread my copy of SS and on US Version pg 294 it > reads: > > "How touching..."it hissed. "I always value bravery...Yes, boy, your > parents were brave...I killed your father first, and he put up a > courageous fight...but your mother needn't have died...she was > trying to protect you...Now give me the Stone unless you want her to > have died in vain." Geoff: Yes but if you accept the above canon (PS "The Man with Two Faces" p.213 UK edition), you can't object to the Lily first theory. The "echoes" appear from the wand in the order, last first, Cedric being in that position. Therefore, as has been indicated, Lily must come out of the wand first because she died after James. From MadameSSnape at aol.com Tue Jul 6 10:46:22 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 06:46:22 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Return from the Underworld in Greek Mythology (Re: Sirius... Message-ID: <51.40c4a9ab.2e1bdcfe@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104567 In a message dated 7/6/2004 3:37:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, anthyroserain at yahoo.com writes: WHERE'S SIRIUS'S BODY? In my experience (in JKR's books and others) when you don't have a body or conclusive proof that someone is dead (conclusive proof might be, say, the person went up in flames) it's a tip-off that she/he is going to come back. If Sirius was killed by Bellatrix, he *should* have left a body behind. If he simply tripped over the threshold, then we may well be due for an Orpheus/Eurydice adventure. (As someone --forget who, sorry-- pointed out, we haven't seen Fluffy for some time.) I'm clinging to this shred of hope! ====================== Sherrie here: Given the outcome of that little escapade (Orpheus, in his impatience, turns around before Eurydice is completely back in the living world, thus sending her forever back into the Underworld; Orpheus then goes mad & winds up getting torn to bits) - I'm not altogether sure that's such a good model to work from... I susect, if we hear from Sirius again, it will be in the form of some message left before his death but not delivered/found in time. Or - just marginally possible - Trelawney is still around as a channel, so Sirius can use her to get through to Harry.. Sherrie "Unless history lives in our present, it has no future." PRESERVE OUR CIVIL WAR BATTLEFIELDS! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Tue Jul 6 09:45:29 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 05:45:29 -0400 Subject: Moody vs Moody Message-ID: <001201c4633d$f9c37e30$71c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 104568 Lady McBeth "fake Moody: helps Harry in his tri-wizards tasks, turns Malfoy into a ferret, gives Harry advice" I have wondered, for some time, why FakeMoody spend so much time teaching the Unforgivable Curses. He insisted Harry keep trying to shake off the Imperious curse...put him under it four times until he could get out of it completely. He certainly prepared him well to face Voldemort in the graveyard. Harry faced all three of the Unforgivable Curses in the graveyard if I remember correctly. (I just got to that chapter and had to quit reading. I agonize for Harry in that particular section and just wasn't up to it last night....Madness. Sometimes I wish I'd never read these books.) Cathy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From marnyhelfrich at comcast.net Tue Jul 6 10:35:11 2004 From: marnyhelfrich at comcast.net (Marny Helfrich) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 06:35:11 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The FAQ says "Lily first" References: Message-ID: <00f501c46344$ed632440$8e2f8c45@mynewputer> No: HPFGUIDX 104569 Tina: , I have to object to the Lily first > theory. I have just reread my copy of SS and on US Version pg 294 it > reads: ...I killed your father first, and he put up a > courageous fight...but your mother needn't have died... This is nothing against Jo, I am sure that originally it was one way and she changed her mind somewhere in the middle of writing and failed to change the beginning. It happens quite often. Marny: But the revised GoF was corrected to make it CONSISTENT with SS. During Priori Incantantem, the spells come out of the wand in the reverse order they were performed; since Lily was killed second, she should come out of the want first, which is what the OP's subject line was referring to. Marny From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jul 6 11:11:03 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 11:11:03 -0000 Subject: Snape Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104570 Cathy wrote: snip > > Of course he was a member of the Order...left to be a DE, then returned > > to the Order. The "rejoined our side" is the second chance FakeMoody > > was on about in "The Egg and the Eye" chapter of GoF: 'Course Dumbledore > > trusts you [to Snape],' growled Moody, 'He's a trusting man, isn't he? > > Believes in second chances.' Potionccat: Interesting idea, that Snape was in the Order from the beginning. That means that while he may have appeared to join the DEs he was never really a DE. That's a new idea. But I think if that was the case, DD would have said, "he never really left our side." Chinaskisnotes: >> > If Moody in GoF, who is a fake Moody, knows of this 'second chance', and > this second chance is a switch of sides, then Voldemort knows about this > already. > of her way to tell us how long teachers had been at Hogwarts. Trelawney 16 > years, prophecy time, before Harry's birth. Snape, 14 years, after Harry's > parent's death. Could he have been the one to alert DD to their deaths? Potioncat: Although, like some of the DEs who went to work for the MoM, Snape could claim he was only pretending to be on DD's side. And I think Crouch Jr. was unstable enough for his reports to be somewhat questionable. From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 11:31:38 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 11:31:38 -0000 Subject: CoS clues to Books 6 & 7 analysis (Ginny) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104571 "gelite67" wrote: There is also the fact that Ginny is a red-headed, and so was Harry's mother, Lily, although a different shade of red, I believe. I think that Draco, bless his twisted little heart, should fall for Ginny, who is, after all, a pureblood. She could pretend to be his girlfriend to get information out of him. This would give Harry even more to worry about. vmonte responds: There is no way that Ginny would ever go out with Draco, even if to spy for the Order. The Malfoy family are slime. Arthur would have a heart attack! And Lucius was part of a gang that almost killed Harry in GoF! I worry more about Draco's hatred towards Hermione. He really is fixated on her in a way that makes me very uncomfortable. From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 6 11:48:27 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 11:48:27 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 21, The Eye of the Snake In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104572 "Dicentra spectabilis" wrote: > 4. JKR very deliberately prevents Hagrid from naming the 'stringy > Slytherin boy.' Who could he be and why keep his name secret? (And > don't say it's that kid from > That-Which-Should-Be-Discussed-On-HPFGU-Movie, because we don't know > who *he* is, either.) It should be obvious that Harry didn't know his name at this point, or the narrative would have mentioned it. Harry doesn't get to know who Theodore Nott is until Chapter 26 when, as has been mentioned, Hermione whispers it to him in the Library. How long is there between these two events (Thestrals and Quibbler article)? Would Harry have forgotten if Theodore had been the "stringy boy" who saw Thestrals? Bear in mind that this is only the fifth person he knows of, including himself, who is capable of seeing them. (That's Harry, Hagrid, Neville, Luna and tSB FYI.) I would tend to think that Harry would remember if the "weedy" boy in the Library were the same as the "stringy" boy who saw Thestrals. Also, "weedy" is not necessarily the same as "stringy"; the former implies far more physical weakness than the latter. HTH HAND -- Phil From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Jul 6 11:57:10 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 11:57:10 -0000 Subject: Ron is the Half Blood Prince Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104573 But, you say, the Weasleys aren't half bloods? Well, that could depend on who's talking. We've remarked before that the definition of a half-blood seems to vary. Here are some examples: "...Arthur's something like my second cousin once removed. But there's no point in looking for them on here--if ever a family was a bunch of blood traitors it's the Weasleys." --OOP ch. 6 "The Weasleys are one of our most prominent pure-blood families." -- Dumbledore, CoS ch 8 "Most wizards these days are half-blood anyway. If we hadn't married Muggles we'd've died out." --Ron, CoS ch. 7 "There are strange likenesses between us, after all. Even you must have noticed. Both half-bloods..." -- CoS ch. 17 "Yer not *from* a Muggle family." --Hagrid, SS/PS ch. 5 "It'd show 'em all...yeh don't have ter be pure-blood ter do it."--Hagrid, GoF ch.24 Could it be that the Weasleys, who have perhaps married Muggleborns but not Muggles, are considered pure-blood as most wizards think about these things, but are half-bloods in the minds of fanatics like the Blacks? Links between the Weasleys and royalty abound--the Weasley first names are all royal or Arthurian. Then there's the Weasley is our King chant, Harry's dream of Ron and Hermione crowned, Ron's prowess at the "royal game" (chess) , etc. Pippin apologizing if someone came up with this previously--I've been away for a couple of weeks. If so, please point me to the relevant posts. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Jul 6 12:11:29 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 12:11:29 -0000 Subject: Moody v Moody In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104574 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mcdee1980" wrote: > In the most recent chapter discussion post there was a question about > adult support in Harry's life. It occurred to me as I was reading > that Fake Moody in GOF is more supportive of Harry than real Moody in > OOtP; granted it was for his own purposes, but is JKR trying to tell > us that the DEs can be used to Harry's advantage? > fake Moody: helps Harry in his tri-wizards tasks, turns Malfoy into a > ferret, gives Harry advice > real Moody: shows Harry a picture of his parents that makes him more > upset, threatens the people whose hospitality keeps him safe(not > sticking up for the Dursleys, just identifying possible problems), > isn't around to help Harry when he needs it, makes Harry think he > might be possessed by LV. I might have missed some. > This concerns me about the loyalty of the Order. Is Harry really > just a weapon to them? Do any of them truly care about Harry or is > he a means to an end the same way being a DE is for Lucius? Well, there's always the possibility that although 'adult support' is a matter of concern to the sharing, caring fans it might not be a major theme in the books - just the opposite in fact; or is that heresy? The most formative years of Harry's life are now past - childhood and adolescence - and he seems to have struggled through them without turning into an introverted, anti-social, disengaged psychic wreck. In fact he appears distressingly normal considering all he's gone through. True, he does want to form close ties with Sirius, but the lack of overt affection before then seems to have been accepted as an unfortunate fact of life rather than a cause of major angst. Way back at the beginning of the series most fans would have plumped for DD as the putative mentor, guide and emotional security blanket. Not so. DD mostly keeps his distance, popping up occasionally for some necessary explication or intervening when only he can save the day, but generally leaving Harry to his own devices. This has given rise to theories of Puppetmaster!DD and Weapon!Harry; DD isn't so much a support as a trainer getting a new contender ready for a championship bout. Cold-blooded perhaps, but entirely logical. If DD believes in the Prophecy then he knows Harry is it - the WW's best, maybe only chance of bringing down Voldy, and Harry isn't likely to triumph if he's not self-reliant and seasoned. If Harry becomes too dependent on others, things could go horribly wrong. Four times Harry has encountered Voldy, each time he has survived more by luck than judgement. Certainly it wasn't by Harry's own volition but due to some outside factor - the 'Protection' at GH; same again with Quirrell; conflict of wands in the graveyard; DD at the Ministry. Oh, and Tom in the Chamber - not really Voldy but even so it wasn't any of Harry's own wizarding power that got him through; it was a lucky guess, a moment of inspiration. On each occasion it was Voldy that came looking for Harry, each time Harry escapes by the skin of his teeth and each time Voldy has come back for a re-match. Harry's luck can't last for ever. Sooner or later he will probably have to take the fight to Voldy, to confront him on Harry's terms rather than letting Voldy choose the time, place and circumstances. Hopefully, anyway. That way there's more chance of a satisfying blood-bath at the end. Harry's support team is a motley collection, a scratch team. Some impressive, some not so. DD of course, and Moody. Moody is the wizened old Auror - been there, done that, got the wooden leg. No illusions left, probably. He's seen friends die and probably accepts that the casualty list will lengthen; might even include Harry. Voldy is back; Moody can remember the first Voldy War - the goodies were losing until Voldy got the vapours. He knows it's not going to be nice. Then there's the Weasley tribe, determined but apprehensive, especially Molly, and with good reason. Her kids are going into the firing line and don't really appreciate their own mortality; Molly does, she's lost family already. She's concerned about Harry, but with 7 kids of her own plus a husband, Harry is understandably not the sole focus of her worries. Lupin and Snape - pretty much enigmas. Sizable fractions of the posters are apprehensive about their future roles in the plot. For whatever reason Lupin seems to be a lurker; mostly in the background (apart from PoA) and not usually very active. Yes, he turned up at the Ministry but didn't seem to take part in the fighting, everybody else is depicted as battling away - not Lupin. This makes some posters edgy. We don't really know what Snape's role is, some think spy, but I don't see how he'd get away with it. He'd fight Voldy, I think, but probably not the other DEs - they'd be his natural friends in other circumstances. Then there's a rag-bag of others - Tonks, Shacklebolt etc. Unknown quantities; anybody's guess what their function is. Plus of course, Ron, Hermione and maybe Neville. I really hope that this isn't heading for a Disney (spit) type ending - where a bunch of youngsters show the adults how to defeat evil and save the world. I'd find that trite and disappointing. Still, if I don't like the ending I can always give book 7 to a charity shop. They'll have a part to play, sure to, just hope that it's more believable than the Ministry fiasco. A bunch of half-trained students holding their own against hardened killers? And no enemy-induced mortalities? Only adults suffering permanent damage or death? Come on! Be a bit more realistic, Jo. There's FEATHERBOAs out here salivating for some blood and guts - hopefully among the more irritating members of the Junior League. Luna, for example, bet she'd look good turned inside-out. Your point about Crouch!Moody and maybe that DEs can be used to Harry's advantage - I see it the other way round; Voldy and his merry band of evil under-achievers could see an advantage in using Harry. Hence my prediction that a key plot line to come will be 'The Temptation'. They certainly need to get their act together - for a bunch of fearsome destroyers holding the WW in thrall they haven't exactly performed as advertised, have they? It's about time for the swathe of death and destruction to sweep across the land; so far all they've managed is a small pile of rubble in the Ministry foyer. Must do better. > > Lady McBeth, concerned that Kneasy is the Half Blood Prince and just > isn't telling us Sorry, can't oblige. Once had a dog called Prince, does that count? Anyway, I'm much too busy to take on any more chores just now and besides, I don't think I'd look good in a robe - not so much menacing, more traffic obstruction. Kneasy From karenoc1 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 12:14:03 2004 From: karenoc1 at yahoo.com (karenoc1) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 12:14:03 -0000 Subject: Harry and the Half Brother Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104575 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > I doubt if Lily and Petunia grew up in Little Whinging. Which makes it all the more interesting that there is an Evans there. I wonder if Petunia knows. > Potioncat > I for one find it hard to believe that Petunia (nosy-neighbor extraordinaire!) would not know about a family called Evans living in her neighborhood. Of course, Evans is not an uncommon surname, and she may not know of a connection between them and her own family. Or, Mark Evans could be living with a family with a different surname than his own (like Harry Potter living with the Dursleys). But I think it was Carol who pointed out that Mark Evans is likely to be Muggle-born, and I agree whole-heartedly with that. For one, it reinforces the idea that Lily Evans Potter was Muggle-born, meaning that a truly powerful witch could be born of non-wizard parents -- Dumbledore's mantra. And also, if it turns out that Mark Evans gets a Hogwarts letter in HBP, then we would get to know another Muggle- born wizard. I posted last week (in message 104081) that we really haven't seen very many examples of Muggle-born wizards, either at Hogwarts or in the Order. karenoc1 From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 12:18:22 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 12:18:22 -0000 Subject: Petunia doth protest overly much In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104576 Jocelyn wrote: I am still puzzling over the "Remember my last" in OotP though. There was some bargain struck between her and DD, no doubt. We know she agreed to keep Harry but what did DD agree to as his side of the bargain? She certainly seemed terrified of the agreement being broken! I haven't really found any of the propositions advanced so far convincing. I would quite like the 'Dudderkins is a wizard' theory if I didn't think that DD would consider suppressing a child's magic potential to be deeply unethical. vmonte responds: I also think that DD has made some kind of bargain with Petunia. (I don't think that DD is suppressing Dudley's magic either.) I posted a theory about the howler a few weeks ago. I often wondered why Harry did not recognize DD's voice, and why DD often seemed to know more information than he should. Maybe "remember my last" means "remember my last prophecy." After all, Trelawny has a different voice when she is prophesizing, maybe the howler voice is DD's seer voice. Anyway, here's my previous post (#101316): Remember the howler that Petunia got? The howler that spoke in a scary eerie voice that Harry did not recognize as DD. Trelawny speaks in another voice when she is prophesizing, maybe this is DD's Seer voice? I remember when DD told Harry that he had been thinking of removing divinity from the school altogether--until he met Trelawny. (Why remove the subject you say? Well maybe because divinity is ambiguous, non-specific, often missinterpreted, and usually revealed after-the- fact.) What if DD has a couple prophecy orbs himself? The same ambiguous, and non direct kind of prophecies like Trelawny. There is one at the house of the child born in the seventh month who will...blah blah blah...develop magic late in life...this one will be protected by the child who can vanquish the dark lord...blah blah blah...on this non-specific ambiguous date and time... This prophecy is the reason Petunia agreed to take in Harry. DD's howler reminds Petunia of the prophecy. Here is the thing, I think that Petunia has assumed that the prophecy is about Dudley, but it is really about herself. Petunia lived with a witch, her sister. She would know the early signs. She has been trying to keep Dudley from getting angry and upset his whole life in fear that he would reveal his magical side. The problem is that the prophecy is really about her --- HAHA. From aldhelm at earthlink.net Tue Jul 6 12:28:21 2004 From: aldhelm at earthlink.net (carin_in_oh) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 12:28:21 -0000 Subject: The Prophecy: Harry's interpretation and reaction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104577 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" wrote: ... > Do you not think that Harry will > attenpt to comtemplate alternative meanings to the prophecy? Do you not think > that Hermione, if and when she is told, will not dissect each and every word of that > prophecy with a dictionary and thesaurous at hand just like we are? I think Harry > will most certainly wish to find as many alternatives to the prophecy once he learns > that his fate is limited only to that which can be in accoradance with the damn > prophecy. > Arya You are absolutely right. The way the prophecy motivates the characters, esp. Harry, will be the really interesting thing to watch, and probably the best reason for its existence in the books. (Think: the Scottish Play.) When we had a thread on this a few months ago, the question was raised whether Harry would ultimately find a certain freedom in knowing that he can't be killed _except_ by LV. The question, esp. given the sad example of Sirius, is whether that freedom to act in the space between now and the fulfillment of the prophecy will lead to a recklessness that endangers others, or a boldness that allows him to accomplish great things for his side in the run-up to the final confrontation, and develop his powers accordingly. Both, I'd guess. Carin From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 12:37:49 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 12:37:49 -0000 Subject: Snape Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104579 chinaskisnotes wrote: > Also, speaking of when Snape became a member of the order, JKR went out > of her way to tell us how long teachers had been at Hogwarts. Trelawney > 16 years, prophecy time, before Harry's birth. Snape, 14 years, after > Harry's parent's death. Could he have been the one to alert DD to their > deaths? Del replies : Do we know for sure that Snape starting teaching *after* Harry's parents' death ? Snape says "14 years" somewhere at the beginning of October, barely 2 or 3 weeks before the 14th anniversary of the Potters' death, so we can't conclude that he wasn't already teaching when they were killed. Del From pandrea100 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 6 11:15:12 2004 From: pandrea100 at hotmail.com (pandrea100) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 11:15:12 -0000 Subject: Moody vs Moody In-Reply-To: <001201c4633d$f9c37e30$71c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104580 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cathy Drolet" wrote: > > I have wondered, for some time, why FakeMoody spend so much time teaching the Unforgivable Curses. I think it was simply because that's what he's good at. As a Death Eater, he probably didn't have much need of DEFENCE against the Dark Arts spells, but he used the Unforgiveables frequently. Whether because he wasn't so good at the other stuff, or didn't want to teach true defensive methods and thereby help the anti-DA cause, or just that he stuck to what he knew and loved, he concentrated on the spells closest to his heart. Also, he was a bit nutty after years of Azkaban and house arrest, having brooded all that time, maybe he was just enjoying getting to use these curses again. Pandrea From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Tue Jul 6 11:49:54 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 07:49:54 -0400 Subject: Harry LIVES! (was: prophecy wording) Message-ID: <001a01c4634f$5c15df40$5562d1d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 104581 Justine "It is only after Harry tells him that Voldemort touched his, Harry's, face, that Dumbledore's face takes on this expression. Voldemort was, consequently, happy that touching Harry's face does not harm him. What he fails to realize, however, is that Harry is left unharmed as well. Harry does feel pain, but his head is already aching from the scar, and the scar gives Harry pain whenever Voldemort experiences emotion, the intensity of the pain varying with the intensity of the emotion." GoF, pg 566 (Can edition) " Harry felt the cold tip of the long white finger touch him, and thought his head would burst with the pain." While Harry wasn't 'harmed'...he didn't die, his eyes didn't pop out, his head didn't burst, it sounds to me more than just residual pain from the other times the scar had hurt during that cemetery scene. JMO. Cathy - who is struggling through these chapters even as she writes this. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Jul 6 12:49:40 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 12:49:40 -0000 Subject: Moody v Moody In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104582 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mcdee1980" wrote: > In the most recent chapter discussion post there was a question about > adult support in Harry's life. It occurred to me as I was reading > that Fake Moody in GOF is more supportive of Harry than real Moody in OOtP; granted it was for his own purposes, but is JKR trying to tell us that the DEs can be used to Harry's advantage? > fake Moody: helps Harry in his tri-wizards tasks, turns Malfoy into a ferret, gives Harry advice real Moody: shows Harry a picture of his parents that makes him more upset, threatens the people whose hospitality keeps him safe(not sticking up for the Dursleys, just identifying possible problems), isn't around to help Harry when he needs it, makes Harry think he might be possessed by LV. I might have missed some. > This concerns me about the loyalty of the Order. << The Order couldn't love Harry as they do, loved they not honor more. Or words to that effect. There are some things worth dying for. There are some things worth spending your dearest blood for--at least that is the chivalric, Gryffindor ideal. It doesn't surprise me that Fake Moody is nicer than the real one--unfortunately some of the nicest people you'll ever meet are con artists. Of course they're helpful--how else could they get you to rely on them? They beg for the chance to do you favors, all the better to set the hook. The real Moody isn't out for anything and he's under no illusions as to what this war is going to cost--why should he flatter Harry or try to soothe him? Pippin From greatelderone at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 13:00:21 2004 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 13:00:21 -0000 Subject: Ron is the Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104583 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > Could it be that the Weasleys, who have perhaps married > Muggleborns but not Muggles, are considered pure-blood as > most wizards think about these things, but are half-bloods in the > minds of fanatics like the Blacks? GEO: Actually aren't they called blood-traitors by Mrs. Black? Thought that pretty much meant that the Blacks acknowledged the purebloodedness of the Weasleys. From lklink at nycap.rr.com Tue Jul 6 12:57:37 2004 From: lklink at nycap.rr.com (Laura Swieton) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 08:57:37 -0400 Subject: "in essence divided" was CHAPTER DISCUSSION In-Reply-To: <1089082155.10009.45534.m17@yahoogroups.com> References: <1089082155.10009.45534.m17@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <40EAA1C1.5000400@nycap.rr.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104584 >>Wendy wrote the chapter summary :<< What is the overall function of the silver instrument? And what, in this instance, did Dumbledore learn from it? What is the meaning of his question, "in essence divided?" >> >> >> > > "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: This is probably the main question of the whole volume, > > > >Arya now: Totally, totally agrees. *This* is the biggest, maddening, lingering and heart-of-it-all question in the book. > > > Am I the only one to have garnered the impression that the "in essence divided" bit was really quite simple? I always thought it was just Dumbledore double-checking what he suspected was the true origin of Harry's vision. Essentially, asking the silver instrument from where Harry's vision originated, and it shows DD the snake. Second question, was it just the snake (Nagini) or was the snake also possessed ("in essense divided"), and the instrument splits the snake in two, confirming that LV was in fact possessing the snake during the vision. Thus also confirming DD's theory about Harry being linked to LV. Snowfire From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 13:19:16 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 13:19:16 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry and Hermione Foreshadowing in PoA movie? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104585 Katie: As JKR says on her website: "'Does Hermione love Ron or Harry?' I can't believe that some of you haven't worked this one out yet, but I'm not going to answer because that would spoil the arguments, which I enjoy." Big D's words about R/Hr being "subtle as getting hit in the head with a brick" ring true to me. As Jen, I believe, said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. vmonte responds: I completely agree. Even Harry sees that Ron and Hermione have a thing going. Harry knows that Ron has a thing for Hermione! They even remind him of the Weasley parents. During GoF when Hermione tells Ron off: p 432, U.S. edition "Well, if you don't like it, you know what the solution is, don't you?" yelled Hermione; her hair was coming down out of its elegant bun now, and her face was screwed up in anger. "Oh yeah" Ron yelled back. "What's that?" "Next time there's a ball, ask me before someone else does, and not as a last resort!" Ron mouthed soundlessly like a goldfish out of water as Hermione turned on her heel and stormed up the girls' staircase to bed. Ron turned to look at Harry. "Well," he sputtered, looking thunderstruck, "well--that just proves-- completely missed the point--" Harry didn't say anything. He liked being back on speaking terms with Ron too much to speak his mind right now--but he somehow thought that Hermione had gotten the point much better than Ron had. vivian From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Tue Jul 6 13:32:41 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 13:32:41 -0000 Subject: CoS clues to Books 6 & 7 analysis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104586 > previously boyd_smythe wrote: > "So what did it take for Tom Riddle to become the powerful dark > lord? > We can only guess, but my thought is that Tom Riddle was filled with > hatred and self-loathing. Why? He hated mixed-bloods yet was a > half-blood himself. He hated and killed his father, the only family > he > had. Shunned by other students, he hated them, too. He even hates > DD, > who probably was kind and tried to help him. In short, Tom hated the > world for cursing him with his wretched life. And he wanted > *revenge*." > kylie responded: > boyd makes some great points and I agree with most, but where is > canon that suggests Tom Riddle was shunned by other students? (tho' > I agree he did hate them). We know he was handsome, smart, > charming, and trusted by most of the teachers (but didn't fool > Dumbledore) AND he was made Head Boy, so he must have had some > popularity. Hmmm, you have some excellent points here. Perhaps he was popular within Slytherin ala Draco, but would that house really have accepted him given his heritage? My guess is that he was at best tolerated by some Slyth students due to his abilities. Otherwise, why go into hiding and change his name and appearance? As we've heard (sorry, no books here at the moment), very few knew LV was Tom Riddle. And wouldn't changing your name, killing your father and hating mixed-bloods despite your own mixed blood seem to imply self-loathing? --boyd P.S. Percy is by all accounts not terribly popular, but is a Head Boy. From lists at heidi8.com Tue Jul 6 13:45:12 2004 From: lists at heidi8.com (heiditandy) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 13:45:12 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Mark_Evans_=96_the_next_theory_to_be_shot_down_by_JKR=3F?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104587 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > In JKR's new website: > http://www.jkrowling.com/ > > if you click the F.A.Q (the paper clips), then click "about the > books" (envelope at the right), then at a note half hidden to the > left of the FAQ list, then on "F.A.Q. poll". You will get a poll for > the next question to ask JKR (I don't think this poll is available on > the text version of the site). As I type this, the leading question > in the poll (47%) is: > > "What is the significance, if any, of Mark Evans?" The question has been answered. I'm putting it here, with spoiler space, but her writing is much more clever than mine, so I recommend reading it there... s p o i l e r s p a c e r e m a r k There is no significance to Mark Evans, but she thinks that the fans were creating such ingenious theories that she didn't want to spoil the fun and is now planning on taking her family into hiding in Bolivia. Any Bolivian listies willing to track her down? Heidi, who has (a) come out of lurkdom and the busyiness of running fictionalley.org and assembling the Nimbus - 2003 proceedings (going to be published this month!) to post this info and, (b) who notes that JKR's comment about Bolivia, and mine as well, are jokes. From meriaugust at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 13:47:18 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 13:47:18 -0000 Subject: The Prophecy: Harry's interpretation and reaction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104588 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "carin_in_oh" wrote: > Carin: > When we had a thread on this a few months ago, the question was raised whether Harry > would ultimately find a certain freedom in knowing that he can't be killed _except_ by > LV. Is that how you interpreted the prophecy? Because the way I always read it was that Harry has "the power to vanquish the Dark Lord" and that "either must die at the hands of the other" but to me that doesn't mean that no one else can kill Harry. If that was the case then what would the purpose of all the protection surrounding Harry following LV's defeat? No, I think that Harry is still vulnerable, and anything, like an accident or an illness could probably kill him, which is just one of the reasons he's so protected. Meri - who amuses herself for a moment imagining LV praying every night for a tragic Quidditch accident to leave his nemisis in pieces on the pitch... From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Jul 6 13:51:31 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 13:51:31 -0000 Subject: Defy Four Times (Re: Fear and Valour ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104589 Valky: > You make an excellent point to me and a restored balance of the two > is of course the ultimate ending. > The way I see it the spell forms are the the same, reversed. > So saying that Harry's Immortal Personage exists because of the > Valour inside him, equal to the Fear that surrounds Voldemort. > Also, where Harry goes he inspires brave deeds also just as in the > heart of Voldemort is always Fear. Jen: You make excellent points Valky, in your essay. I've always felt there was more to Voldemort's 'gift for spreading discord and enmity' but never thought through it. I always imagined it as him putting a Confusing & Befuddlement Draught in the pumpkin juice supply, just to have a visual for the chaos he creates! But your idea is very streamlined and much more sinister in nature. I like it. Recently I've been dwelling on the graveyard scene in GOF and the importance of the Phoenix song. FBAWTFT mentions that the Phoenix song 'is reputed to increase courage of the pure of heart and strikes fear in the hearts of the impure'. Given your theory, this has even more symbolic value. Harry is the embodiment of the Phoenix song, in other words. His 'purity of heart' is so strong as to bring forth not only the Phoenix song, but also the help he needs to defy Voldemort in the graveyard. And that leads me to wonder, Dumbledore and the Prophecy both place such importance on how many times a person defies Voldemort. Here's the balance issue again. If more and more people speak his name and act in defiance of him, including his 'loyal' followers, will it be like the dueling brother wands, as slowly, very slowly, the fear gets pushed back onto Voldemort himself? Jen Reese From greatelderone at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 14:00:52 2004 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 14:00:52 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry and Hermione Foreshadowing in PoA movie? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104590 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Big D" wrote: > If JKR intends to eventually pair off Hermione with Harry, instead > of Ron, then's she's done a masterful job of leading us the wrong > way, GEO: Isn't that what she's done for most of the major plots? Did you guess from the very start in GoF that Moody was really Crouch's son? Or did you guess in PoA the real reason behind Sirius coming to Hogwarts or that Scabbers was Pettigrew the Traitor? > because almost all of the evidence I've ever seen supporting a > H/Hr ship is very easily explained in other ways, while several of > the clues pointing towards an eventual R/Hr ship are about as subtle > as getting hit in the head with a brick. GEO: Most of the clues I've seen so far point to Ron having a crush on Hermione starting from the Yule Ball in GoF. However there is little evidence indicating her reciprocating him. So far it appears to be one sided. From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Tue Jul 6 14:21:00 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 09:21:00 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HBP and COS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104592 Wasn't Seamus' parental revelation in PS/SS? He said his "Mam was a with and his father was a Muggle." I don't remember a CoS discussion about this. I'm not saying it isn't him, just that the revelation was in the first book. Casey Gina now: This is an odd post for me, but has anyone thought maybe Dobby was not always an elf? I will not be disappointed if you throw tomatoes because I do not really love the idea, but what if Dobby was a human at some point put under a spell or something crazy like that? Gina - who named her dog Dobby [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 14:20:29 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 14:20:29 -0000 Subject: The Dark Lord In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104593 mcdee1980 wrote: Has anyone else noticed that the Prophesies made by Trelawney use the title "The Dark Lord" rather than Voldemort or He Who Must Not Be Named? This struck me as both odd and alarming. Why would JKR choose to have her revelations coming from someone who sounds like a Death Eater instead of someone fighting against the "Dark Lord"? JKR has stated that both she and Professor Trelawney worded the Prophesies very carefully. A couple of out there questions come to mind: 1.) Is Trelawney ESE!Trelawney? Possible . . . she keeps talking about everyone dying and horrible things happenning. 2.) Is this the channeled spirit of a Death Eater? Lady McBeth responded: Trelawney doesn't remember when she is making a true prophesy. Who else doesn't remember what they've been doing: Ginny, when she's possessed by Tom Riddle in COS. Interesting . . . very interesting, who or what is possessing Trelawney when she is making true prophesies. Her use of the Dark Lord indicates that it is probably someone who followed Voldemort or at least believed his schtick. vmonte responds: A few months ago I proposed in a post that the prophesy might be a hoax. The prophecy really seems to be keeping the Order and the DEs busy. It's also interesting that Voldemort's obsession with the prophecy has actually delayed his taking over the WW world. Wouldn't Voldemort have done better to ignore it? In fact DD mentions in one of the books (I'll look it up) that Harry has delayed Voldemort's plans several times, and that if he continues to delay these plans, Voldemort may perhaps never come to power. What if Trelawny really is a fraud. Ron seems to have more ability than she does. His jokes often come true--and they are very specific, unlike Trelawny's ambiguous comments. I wonder if someone could be feeding her their own agenda. If so, for what purpose? Is it to keep the Order and the De's busy and not focused? I really don't know. The fact that the prophecy calls Voldemort the Dark Lord (as you both pointed out) might be a clue. Is there a smart DE out there that is planning to bring down both the Order and the DEs? Has someone carefully written the prophecy to cater to Voldemort's megalomania, while at the same time feeding into his main insecurity: his fear of death! The idea of a prophecy bothers me anyway, so I might just be biased. I just cannot imagine allowing anyone else to dictate my life. I really hope that Harry will come to realize that he really is the master of his own destiny. From sherriola at earthlink.net Tue Jul 6 14:22:12 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:22:12 -0600 Subject: =?US-ASCII?Q?RE:_=5BHPforGrownups=5D_Re:_Mark_Evans_-_the_next_theory_to_?= =?US-ASCII?Q?be_shot_down_by_JKR=3F?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001601c46364$a29f8820$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 104594 In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > In JKR's new website: > http://www.jkrowling.com/ > > if you click the F.A.Q (the paper clips), then click "about the > books" (envelope at the right), then at a note half hidden to the > left of the FAQ list, then on "F.A.Q. poll". You will get a poll for > the next question to ask JKR (I don't think this poll is available on > the text version of the site). As I type this, the leading question > in the poll (47%) is: > > "What is the significance, if any, of Mark Evans?" The question has been answered. I'm putting it here, with spoiler space, but her writing is much more clever than mine, so I recommend reading it there... s p o i l e r s p a c e r e m a r k There is no significance to Mark Evans, but she thinks that the fans were creating such ingenious theories that she didn't want to spoil the fun and is now planning on taking her family into hiding in Bolivia. Any Bolivian listies willing to track her down? Heidi, who has (a) come out of lurkdom and the busyiness of running fictionalley.org and assembling the Nimbus - 2003 proceedings (going to be published this month!) to post this info and, (b) who notes that JKR's comment about Bolivia, and mine as well, are jokes. Sherry replies Thanks for posting this. I can't access the regular part of the site--just the text only--so if it's not there, I wouldn't have been able to find this information. I hope it's for real, because it would be so funny, that we've all been speculating like mad about Mark Evans, and he doesn't matter. Just one of JKR's tricks. I love her way of doing that. Sherry G From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 6 14:38:27 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 14:38:27 -0000 Subject: About Sirius, Wormtail, Snape, Draco In-Reply-To: <20040704065145.32276.qmail@webmail8.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104595 "Amey Chinchorkar" wrote: [snip] > Amey again [talking about the difficult-to-squash wand-order controversy]: > That only states the correct order, and also the spells coming out > don't give us the timing. I was talking about that, not the actaul > Lily-First-James-Later-Or-Vice-Versa thing. Sorry, it was getting a > long post and I wrapped up the point. What I meant was that there > seems to be some doubt that the man was not James. Sorry but I just boggled and I wanted a sanity check. I am not aware of any possible reason from canon to doubt that the man who appeared from Voldemort's wand in the graveyard scene was anyone other than James Potter. JKR on her website has now --- after a bit of jiggery-pokery to make sure the animated and text versions are consistent with each other --- confirmed that Lily appeared first, followed by James, and that he was therefore killed before her (presumably very shortly or at least with no intervening murders). This would appear to be concrete proof that James Potter did indeed die at Godric's Hollow, just as Voldemort confirmed. Which man are you saying "was not James"? -- Phil From kreneeb at hotmail.com Tue Jul 6 14:45:22 2004 From: kreneeb at hotmail.com (hermionekitten9) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 14:45:22 -0000 Subject: Movie PoA Foreshadows Books 6 & 7 (Hermione's Choice) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104596 kitten says Ok... I understand where you're coming from now, but doesn't your whole post put a nail in the Harry/Hermione coffin? Harry IMO has shown absolutely zero interest in Hermione as any thing more then a friend...Are there times when you see Harry showing interest in Hermione as more then a friend? If so, what are they? I can buy the Hermione likes Harry argument, but I have seen no evidence of Harry liking Hermione... Anyway back to the point... if Hermione is "a great judge of character and feelings" then she should understand and know that Harry doesn't like her "that" way... thereby not seeing anything in Harry. >From: "mayeaux45" >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Movie PoA Foreshadows Books 6 & 7 (Hermione's Choice) >Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 03:08:52 -0000 > >Kitten wrote: > > I don't understand the statement "Hermione's choice and no one > > else's" aren't there *two* people in a relationship? > >Kitten, >Sorry about that! Maybe I didn't explain as well as I should have >about the whole Hermione's "choice" thing. It wasn't meant to seem >as if Ron and Harry are waiting on bated breath to hear who >she "chooses". It was more just the inner workings of my own head >that I failed to write down. What I meant was that Hermione is a >great judge of character and feelings (especially when it comes to >Harry), but also Ron (even though with Ron it's more obvious because >he tends to wear his heart on his sleeve)...Basically what I mean to >say is that Hermione knows "her boys" really well. She would know >who likes her more than a friend. If Harry or Ron chose to put >their feelings elsewhere I'm sure she would be able to tell (as >always)! But if that were not to be the case in books 6 & 7, it >WOULD ultimately be Hermione's choice. Whether Harry starts to have >the whole "spider-man complex" and decide it's too dangerous for >them to be together or if Ron is too chicken to follow >through...that would be THEIR choice! > > >"mayeaux45" From sofdog_2000 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 14:53:29 2004 From: sofdog_2000 at yahoo.com (sofdog_2000) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 14:53:29 -0000 Subject: Return from the Underworld in Greek Mythology (Re: Sirius... In-Reply-To: <51.40c4a9ab.2e1bdcfe@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104597 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, MadameSSnape at a... wrote: > In a message dated 7/6/2004 3:37:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > anthyroserain at y... writes: > WHERE'S SIRIUS'S BODY? In my experience (in JKR's books and others) > when you don't have a body or conclusive proof that someone is dead > (conclusive proof might be, say, the person went up in flames) it's > a tip-off that she/he is going to come back. If Sirius was killed by > Bellatrix, he *should* have left a body behind. If he simply tripped > over the threshold, then we may well be due for an Orpheus/Eurydice > adventure. (As someone --forget who, sorry-- pointed out, we haven't > seen Fluffy for some time.) I'm clinging to this shred of hope! > ====================== > Sherrie here: > > Given the outcome of that little escapade (Orpheus, in his impatience, turns > around before Eurydice is completely back in the living world, thus sending > her forever back into the Underworld; Orpheus then goes mad & winds up getting > torn to bits) - I'm not altogether sure that's such a good model to work from... SOF: Actually, pretty much every HP novel has a complete journey including an Underworld descent and Return. The kids go through the trap door for the Stone in SS, down into the Chamber of Secrets to retrieve Ginny, beneath the willow to retrieve Ron, into the labyrinth to win the Triwizard Cup and into the Department of Mysteries to rescue Sirius. The Underworld can be symbolized. From belijako at online.no Tue Jul 6 15:20:32 2004 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Jakobsen) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 15:20:32 -0000 Subject: Moody vs Moody In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104598 Cathy Drolet wrote: I have wondered, for some time, why FakeMoody spend so much time teaching the Unforgivable Curses. Pandrea wrote in response: I think it was simply because that's what he's good at. Also, he was a bit nutty after years of Azkaban and house arrest, having brooded all that time, maybe he was just enjoying getting to use these curses again. Berit replies: I guess one of the reasons why Fake!Moody "taught" his pupils the Unforgivables was that he couldn't resist the enjoyment of casting them once again. But I doubt that was the only, or most important reason. I think his reason was dead practical: I think Barty Crouch Jr needed to know if Harry was suspectible to the Imperius curse. If he was, it might come in handy to be able to control Harry when the time came to hand him over to Voldemort. As it happens, Harry had no problems fighting it off, so now Fake!Moody knew if Harry messed up and for some reason failed to reach the portkey in the mase, Fake! Moody would have to eliminate other "problems" (for instance the other contestants) to get the delivery job done. Berit From lb140900 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 15:20:22 2004 From: lb140900 at yahoo.com (Louis Badalament) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 15:20:22 -0000 Subject: two crazy theories: Harry will die and HBP In-Reply-To: <20040705102333.3934.qmail@web25103.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104599 Dear Hans, Hi, Hans! I am writing in response to your Half Blood Prince theory, to give you my take on it, (the other one about Harry being the gatekeeper, I'm not going to touch). I just want to tell you what a joy it's been reading your posts; the way your spirituality and thoughtfulness shines through is truly insightful and a real breath of fresh air. That said, I have to tell you I see very little possibility of the Half Blood Prince being the Trio. Just look at the third book, as a case in point. There was really wasn't anything roundabout or illusive about what it was headed. The title promised a 'Prisoner of Azkaban,' and lo and behold, we are given a fugitive who escaped from a place known as Azkaban. For all the twists that Rowling's plots offer, her titles tend to be rather direct, especially in regards to the main focus and (notably) the climax of the book. Book 1 dealt with Harry's search for the Stone; it featured heavily in his fight against Quirrelmort (gotta love that name!) Book Two dealt with the mystery of the Chamber of Secrets; the final battle of that book took place in its shadowy depths. Book Three dealt with Sirius Black, and we all know he had a lot of staggering revelations for us by book's end. In all frankness, Book Four centered deeper around the Triwizard Tourament than the Goblet of Fire, yet it was through that Goblet that Voldemort was able to achieve the second body he sought, and begin restoring his old power, and it was by the Goblet that Harry was able to return to Dumbledore. The Order of the Phonenix centered heavily around the resistance to Voldemort, (and those who would remain willfully ignorant of him,) and, again the titular Order showed up to rescue Harry in the climax of that book - ultimately resulting in Sirius' death. If the trend is any indication, I think this Prince fellow is likely to be quite a character... perhaps someone even as lovable and compelling as Sirius Black, himself. When Rowling writes that there will be a Half Blood Prince, I believe she means exactly what she says. The sixth book will feature a male of some royal lineage, (British, Albanian, Ugandian... the possibilities are endless,) who is of half blood. It's likely 'Half Blood' simply refers to the result of a Wizard-Muggle union. The Prince could also, possibly, be some cross-species hybrid (Human-Veela, Human-Giant, Something Else,) Regardless, I feel confident theorizing that the climax of book six will feature some kickass confrontation involving Harry, Voldemort, and the Prince. It's *possible* the Prince's name has already been mentioned, (in the style of Mrs. Figg, Mundungus Fletcher, and the Lovegood family,) but I, personally, feel it more likely the Prince is someone we know nothing about, that he will come out on entirely on his own the way Umbridge did. Other than that, Hans, I can offer you little else in form of solid substance. We all just have to wait for Rowling to throw us some more scraps from her writing table. Incidentally, what do you think the odds are that the Prince will be an adult? And what do you think the chances are that the Prince will be an aide to Voldemort, (as the Chamber of Secrets aided him,) as opposed to a force for good? Stay Spiritual, Louis Badalament II From kreneeb at hotmail.com Tue Jul 6 15:20:09 2004 From: kreneeb at hotmail.com (hermionekitten9) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 15:20:09 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Thestrals Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104601 kitten says But if Neville saw his grandfather die during VMWI that would make Neville one year old (same age as Harry was) so Neville wouldn't be able to see the threstals (spelling?) JKR has said that Harry couldn't see the threstals, before book five, because he was too young, or their death wouldn't have "sunk in" yet... I would assume that the same would be said for Neville. kitten whos sorry for jumping in, just wanted to add that... >From: "justcarol67" >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Neville and the Thestrals >Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 05:53:04 -0000 > >-becky: Just a general point here as I reread OotP... Neville's >grandfather was killed in front of him. Many signs point to >Neville's memory having been tampered with-- why would this memory >be left? Just musing, really... > >Christina: I have wondered this also, but I also wonder how his >grandfather died? Could he have died in VMW1 when his parents were >attacked? > >Pixie: Who says his grandfather was killed? I always pictured him >dying in bed, from natural causes. There would be no need to modify >a memory like that. > >Carol (responding to everybody): >I don't have the exact quote handy, but Bellatrix taunts Neville >during the DoM battle about his grandmother losing yet another >relative (meaning Neville himself) to the DEs. That to me suggests >that the DEs killed her husband as well as torturing her son and >daughter-in-law into insanity. (Bella herself may have had a hand in >the murder, though her specialty is the Cruciatus Curse.) > >Not that I believe Neville has had his memory modified. The human mind >can only take so much suffering, and I imagine that his forgetfulness >is partly the result of repression from which he's slowly recovering. >There really is no need for memory modification spells to explain his >mental and emotional state in Books 1 through 5. > >Carol From aldhelm at earthlink.net Tue Jul 6 15:27:07 2004 From: aldhelm at earthlink.net (carin_in_oh) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 15:27:07 -0000 Subject: The Prophecy: Harry's interpretation and reaction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104602 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: > Is that how you interpreted the prophecy? Because the way I always > read it was that Harry has "the power to vanquish the Dark Lord" and > that "either must die at the hands of the other" but to me that > doesn't mean that no one else can kill Harry. If that was the case > then what would the purpose of all the protection surrounding Harry > following LV's defeat? No, I think that Harry is still vulnerable, > and anything, like an accident or an illness could probably kill > him, which is just one of the reasons he's so protected. Carin replies: I guess I did interpret the prophecy that way (i.e. only H can kill LV AND vice-versa), but I admit it's not watertight. My (tentative) belief is based on my theory that the bond-and-mutual-tension thing between H and LV means that their continuing existences are, in the long run, mutually exclusive. Harry's failure to die blasts LV almost out of existence...the during the early books, Harry is a half-formed wizard and LV is only gradually reclaiming his body... and now that LV is fully reconstituted and Harry is coming to maturity and full power, fullscale war is breaking out. But that's a kind of meta-view of the trajectory of the whole series. The question of how others have understood the prophecy and what it means for Harry is a sticky problem. How many others have known about the prophecy before now, anyway? If DD is sure that Harry is the only one who can vanquish LV but unsure about how much LV remains a threat in the meantime and to what extent Harry is at risk from anyone else, that would be enough for DD to put all his efforts into keeping Harry alive. Whatever the prophecy _really_ means, I can see Harry deciding (at least in the near term) that it authorizes him to be reckless. (Cf. Achilles.) Carin From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 6 15:30:54 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 15:30:54 -0000 Subject: Movie PoA Foreshadows Books 6 & 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104603 "Anastasia" wrote: [snip] > The fact that we don't hear James' voice in the movie could simply > result from not having found any suitable actor. Suppose James/his > shadow is to appear in film 6 or 7, then there was someone needed to > play him, but this person has not been found yet. Or JKR wants to > conceal that. If someone spoke James now and someone else played him > afterwards... Too much confusing. But we've seen JP in the Mirror of Erised, and again in Harry's photograph of his parents. He's been played by Adrian Rawlins in all 3 films so far: http://uk.imdb.com/name/nm0712628/ HTH HAND -- Phil From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Tue Jul 6 13:26:29 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 6 Jul 2004 13:26:29 -0000 Subject: Some points on HBP, James and Lily Message-ID: <20040706132629.27622.qmail@webmail31.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104604 >>>>>>Kneasy >>>>>>The money - didn't JKR say that he'd inherited it? Or has my memory >>>>>>gone wonky again? >>>>>>Sirius suggested (or said he did) that Peter become SK, though why >>>>>>James and Lily went along with it is a mystery. >>>>>>But GH and the cloak, especially the cloak. Why give it to DD? It seems >>>>>>to be an eminently useful piece of kit to have around if you think that >>>>>>you're going to be attacked. Presumably it was handed over before they >>>>>>went into hiding - why? >>>>>>Also in Arthurian legend, the white stag is sometimes associated >>>>>>with the Lady of the Lake, who gives the sword Excalibur to Arthur. >>>>>>So maybe the Invisibility Cloak wasn't the only thing James Potter >>>>>>had in his possession before dying? Amey here: Where did he inherit "heaps of..." money? Or did Lily inherit it? (I don't think we have been told anywhere whose money is that exactly). Does this point somewhere to HBP??? What are the things James might have left for Harry? And as for Sirius's suggestion, it was really fool-proof, except for the fact that the new SK was a spy. But apart from that it was a really good suggestion, something like "feint". > > Katie: > > (By the way, speaking of "attacking schoolmates just because they > > exist", why on earth does James behave the way he does? He seems > > honestly quite sadistic in the Pensieve scene to me, yet he > > doesn't get .1% of the criticism that Sirius does.) > > SSSusan: > > An excellent question. I wonder why that is?? Is it simply > > because we see James trying to STOP the prank? Is it because we > > know he ended up with Lily, and so we assume he had a change of > > heart? Amey: Or is it because that he is dead and we (read WW) don't talk bad of dead people. Or is it because he redeemed himself so much working for Order that all people remember that better? I don't hear anywhere else except from Snape that Sirius was a bully, nobody else says that. Not even McGonall in PoA. > > June in case of Hermione baying for Lupin/werewolf: > > No, no, I think she just happened on hitting the right thing to do. > > Inspiring, yes, but probably coincidental. Amey here: But in hindsight, that was not such a right thing to do, right? I mean, the werewolf left their past selves and bounded after the present selves. Dangerous. > > Obviously the graveyard scene will be included. The > > Triwizard tournament will have to be included, but I'm not sure all > > of the tasks will be in there--personally I'm voting for the lake > > task to be cut. What else? > > MaggieB > > Carol: > > MO, they MUST keep the Dark Mark, the Goblet of Fire ceremony, all > > three tasks, the graveyard scene, and the transformation/confession of > > Barty Jr. They SHOULD keep the introduction to the Pensieve, the > > Unforgiveable Curses, the return of Padfoot, the madness of Mr. > > Crouch, and Dumbledore sending Snape off on an unknown dangerous > > mission. I *hope* they keep Fred and George growing beards after tehy > > cross the age line, Draco the bouncing ferret, and the Yule Ball sequence. Yes, I agree with these. But there is a news on the net, (I don't remember exactly where) that the clothes for World Cup are being prepared. Looks like that scene is there for sure. > > Dumbledore is already connected to a bird: Fawkes, a phoenix. So, where is > > the lion? Amey here: Isn't the symbol of Gryffindor 'Lion'??? And DD is a Gryffindor himself. > > And Harry, whose soul is connected to Voldemort's. I suspect that if that > > scar isn't eradicated, Harry will die when Voldemort does, and the analogy I > > would make is with Siamese twins being separated. Removing the scar > > might just kill Harry, but it would be his only chance.... Amey here: But DD tells us in PS/SS in first chapter that Harry will have to live with the scar forever. (Till death? I don't like the sound of it, so I have it in parentheses). > > vmonte > > born to those who have thrice defied him = Molly and Arthur Weasley > > 1. Ginny escapes death > > 2. Arthur escapes death > > 3. What is Dumbledore's previous history with Voldemort. Did he also > > escape death? How did he get his London Underground scar? > > 3. Or in book 6 and 7 - another Weasley will escape death Amey here: Where does Ginny comes in in the "born to" part??? If it was Molly, then it was a different story. > > Lady McBeth > > What do those things tell us? Good question! Not much is the > > answer. We've discussed his teaching practices to no end and his > > trustworthyness. The only conclusion I've come to is that I trust > > Snape; not because of Dumbledore, but rather because of Hermione. > > She's always right Amey : Hermione?? Always right??? (*coughs*Lockhart*coughs*).... Though she is one of my most favourite charatcers, I won't say she is always right, only that she has many facts. I don't think she has anything for Snape, because in that case, she wouldn't be "covering up" for him like she did for Lupin. I think it's just the fact that he is a teacher which makes her respect her(remember her horror at attacking him in Shack, she says "we attacked a teacher"), and the fact that DD trusts him. Amey, signing off... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From allisonotto at gmail.com Tue Jul 6 13:28:42 2004 From: allisonotto at gmail.com (allison_m_otto) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 13:28:42 -0000 Subject: Fawkes - and Gryffindor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104605 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gelite67" wrote: > I thought I read that Dumbledore's phoenix, Fawkes, gave the feathers > for Voldemort's and Harry's wands. I don't know what to make of > this. Any theories? I was about to post a theory which you may have disrupted by reminding me that Fawkes gave a feather to Voldemort's wand (which he did, by the way - I think Dumbledore tells Harry that). But maybe it can be reconciled after all. Here's my question: if a person is an Animagus, and his Animagus form is a phoenix, if he were to remain in phoenix form, could he live forever? Apologies if anyone has posted this before (I did look) but - What if Fawkes *is* Godric Gryffindor? Only he can't transform back into human form, because as a human he's way too old even for wizards and would probably die immediately. But by staying a phoenix he can keep watch on things and intervene when needed. So, while it is hard to see why Voldemort would have Gryffindor's feather in his wand, if he did have it that would probably be one big weakness against Harry. If Harry is the heir of Gryffindor (which I think he is), and Fawkes keeps showing up for Harry's big battles with evil (and maybe brings Gryffindor's sword again), then I could see Voldemort's wand not working very well against Harry. PS - I also think Gryffindor is the HBP. I think one big piece of information we are missing, which would have been logically relevant to CoS, is what Harry's connection with Gryffindor really is. -Allison From mainecoon at wytopitlock.dk Tue Jul 6 13:40:19 2004 From: mainecoon at wytopitlock.dk (mainecoon at wytopitlock.dk) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 15:40:19 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "in essence divided" was CHAPTER DISCUSSION In-Reply-To: <40EAA1C1.5000400@nycap.rr.com> References: <1089082155.10009.45534.m17@yahoogroups.com> <40EAA1C1.5000400@nycap.rr.com> Message-ID: <1089121219.40eaabc33d323@horde.scannet.dk> No: HPFGUIDX 104606 Snowfire wrote: > Am I the only one to have garnered the impression that the "in essence > divided" bit was really quite simple? I always thought it was just > Dumbledore double-checking what he suspected was the true origin of > Harry's vision. Essentially, asking the silver instrument from where > Harry's vision originated, and it shows DD the snake. Second question, > was it just the snake (Nagini) or was the snake also possessed ("in > essense divided"), and the instrument splits the snake in two, > confirming that LV was in fact possessing the snake during the vision. > Thus also confirming DD's theory about Harry being linked to LV. I fully agree with you here. At the beginning I thought that LV was divided because he now had something of Harry inside him (the blood when he regained his body) but after a bit thinking it seems more right to the plot that it's Harry who is divided. There are a strong bond between Harry and LV and hopefully we will soon see how their relationship develops. As earlier mentioned we never hear Harry express hatred to LV. Anette From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 15:43:20 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 15:43:20 -0000 Subject: Return from the Underworld in Greek Mythology (Re: Sirius... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104607 SOF: Actually, pretty much every HP novel has a complete journey including an Underworld descent and Return. The kids go through the trap door for the Stone in SS, down into the Chamber of Secrets to retrieve Ginny, beneath the willow to retrieve Ron, into the labyrinth to win the Triwizard Cup and into the Department of Mysteries to rescue Sirius. The Underworld can be symbolized. vmonte responds: Exactly. Which probably means that there is going to be a big chase at some point in the London underground (subway system?) and/or under Gringotts bank. vivian From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Tue Jul 6 13:58:37 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 6 Jul 2004 13:58:37 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 22 - St. Mungo's Hospital Message-ID: <20040706135837.31071.qmail@webmail31.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104608 > > What are the implications of portrait people being able to move freely > > within their own portraits? Can each person appear in only one at any > > given time? In what other ways could this be useful to Harry, or the > > Order; conversely, how could this prove dangerous? > > Do the images in the chocolate frog cards have this ability as well? > > Can Phineas, obviously a Slytherin and member of the Black family, be > > trusted? Amey: What I think here is that, the Posters have to be made specifically for this. Anyway, the people in the pictures move around, but to visit other potraits of themselves would be restricted only for certain people and posters. It will not be the case for mass-printed frog-cards. Also I think Phineas, even if he is Slytherin can be trusted if given direct order. That is what the other portaits say at least (They have to obey orders of the present headmaster, did somebody say house elves???). But I think Dumbledore asked him to give the message because he was the only person (potrait or otherwise) who could give the message. I don't imagine Dumbledore holding discussion with him about his strategy for fighting LV. It seems the posters hold the essence of the man, so he cannot go against his character. > > What is the overall function of the silver instrument? And what, in > > this instance, did Dumbledore learn from it? What is the meaning of > > his question, "in essence divided?" > > What caused Harry to have that urge to kill Dumbledore? Was it > > connected to the visions? Was he being possessed by Voldemort? Amey: The silver instrument showed Dumbledore the scene from third person's point of view. It showed the snake, meaning (in this case LV), co-inhabited by Harry. Even their point of view and emotions were the same in this case, LV must have been having some deep emotions, which led Harry more into his mind than before. That left a lingering emotion, as LV transmitted some of his part to Harry the day he tried to kill him, and now he has Harry's blood. So Harry wanted to attack Dumbledore (Dumbledore even saw "shadow" of LV in Harry's eyes then). But in essence, the two persons in snake were divided, they had similar abilities (not powers, LV has more powers), they had similar backgrounds, but they were and are divided in that their aims in life are different. One (read LV) is concerned with power, immortality etc. (the things people want most etc. etc. Don't have complete quote from Dumbledore), the other (Harry) is more concerned for others than himself, more coincerned for justice than revenge (see how he saved wormtail in shack), in essence more concerned with all the things which make him a better human. How's that for philosophy??? *winks* Amey, signing off before the dose of philosophy becomes too much for myself ;) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Tue Jul 6 14:26:41 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 10:26:41 -0400 Subject: Snape Question Message-ID: <001901c46365$420224e0$58c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 104609 chinaskisnotes: "Also, speaking of when Snape became a member of the order, JKR went out of her way to tell us how long teachers had been at Hogwarts. Trelawney 16 years, prophecy time, before Harry's birth. Snape, 14 years, after Harry's parent's death. Could he have been the one to alert DD to their deaths?" I thought it interesting, also, that Trelawney has been at Hogwarts, it seems, virtually since she made the prediction in front of Dumbledore. Is she there for her own protection? Dumbledore will not allow her to be removed from the school in OotP when Umbridge has her dismissed. Although Trelawney doesn't seem to have any idea what she said when she makes a prediction, I'm sure LV could find a way to break into her mind if she was in his clutches (as Bertha Jorkins was). Is that also the reason Snape has been at the school for 14 years...to protect him in some way? I don't know. Cathy - who is posting to this list far more that she ever thought she would! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Tue Jul 6 14:19:26 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 10:19:26 -0400 Subject: The Mirror of Erised Message-ID: <000c01c46364$3fd43dd0$58c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 104610 While in the shower this morning (yes, I know you'll all soon believe I only think in the shower) I had a thought about that wonderful Mirror of Erised. Will it not show up again in another book? Was it destroyed in PS? I don't remember reading that it was destroyed. What IF: Harry finds the mirror again. The most desperate desire of his heart is to see and speak to Sirius. Or, give Sirius one half of that set of mirrors? (Fred or George could repair the broken one in a second.) If it is the most desperate desire of his heart, surely it would happen. Then for those who love Sirius and want to see more of him...they'll have them. For those who don't want to see more of him, or at least not more of him 'alive' (I don't believe he will come back alive...don't want him to come back alive) they will have their wish as well. Just as I think the Chamber of Secrets (under line that last 's') will come back into play in one of the next two books, I hope the Mirror of Erised isn't only going to be used once! Just a thought... Cathy - who finally made it throught, again, the last few chapters of GoF. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mayeaux45 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 15:27:16 2004 From: mayeaux45 at yahoo.com (mayeaux45) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 15:27:16 -0000 Subject: Movie PoA Foreshadows Books 6 & 7 (Hermione's Choice) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104612 Kitten, I see your point when you talk about Harry not showing any interest in Hermione. But I must reinterate the "love triangle" statement I have made before now. You have a good argument with saying that Hermione has shown some interest and Harry has shown relatively none...but on the other hand the same would go for Ron and Hermione. Ron has showed some (well, quite a bit really) interest, but Hermione has shown relatively none towards him. And please don't give the example of when 'Hermione looked furious' in GoF when Fleur had kissed Ron on the cheek. First of all, Fleur had kissed Harry as well. And here's the important part about that example of R/Hr...Hermione didn't like Fleur from the start. Hermione had an extreme dislike for her ever since she first arrived because of the comment she made about Hogwarts when they first arrived for dinner in the Great Hall. Hermione felt like she came off snobbish. I'm not trying to convert R/Hr to H/Hr or anything like that. I'm just putting some controversy out there to get some people to start thinking more critically about "possible outcomes". I love Ron, Hermione, and Harry. Whoever ends up with who, I really don't care (as long as their all alive at the end)! But for arguments sake...you can't rule out anything in the world JKR! From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Tue Jul 6 14:40:12 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 10:40:12 -0400 Subject: Snape Question Message-ID: <002601c46367$25929040$58c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 104613 Potionccat: "Interesting idea, that Snape was in the Order from the beginning. That means that while he may have appeared to join the DEs he was never really a DE. That's a new idea. But I think if that was the case, DD would have said, "he never really left our side." " Unless DD was keeping his cards close to his chest...as they say in poker. He didn't want anyone in the MOM or WW in general to know Snape was only pretending to be a DE. Cathy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From garybec101 at comcast.net Tue Jul 6 16:00:25 2004 From: garybec101 at comcast.net (garybec) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 16:00:25 -0000 Subject: The Dark Lord In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104614 > mcdee1980 wrote: > > Has anyone else noticed that the Prophesies made by Trelawney use the > title "The Dark Lord" rather than Voldemort or He Who Must Not Be > Named? This struck me as both odd and alarming. Why would JKR > choose to have her revelations coming from someone who sounds like a > Death Eater. Becki's thoughts; Please forgive me if I am repeating. I was on vacation and trying to get caught up is impossible so I will just jump in here; We have to remember that it is not Trelawney that is making the prophecies, it is her great-great-grandmother. That is 5 generations prior. Cassandra may not have even lived during the rein of the Dark Lord. However, to refer to him as The Dark Lord is a more general term, instead of calling him Voldemort or Tom Riddle, which is more specific, which the prophecy is not. It is very general when it comes to names. Most of the prophecy has already come true; "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies..." already happened, Harry was born and LV was vanquished when he tried to destroy him. "And the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal," already happened, lighting bolt scar. "But he will have power the Dark Lord knows not," LV didn't know about the power HP's mother gave him, he admitted that in the graveyard scene "And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives" This of course is the tricky one. Although there are lots of arguments that it may not be referring to HP and LV but they are the only two being referred to in the prophecy, it has to be them. Trying to remember my semantics class in high school, I believe it does mean that either Harry or LV must kill the other. Hey, even Dumbledore says that is what it means. Becki (who is so excited about her acquisition of a complete UK version of the series from her vacation across the pond). From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 16:12:26 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 16:12:26 -0000 Subject: Snape Question In-Reply-To: <002601c46367$25929040$58c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104615 Potionccat: "Interesting idea, that Snape was in the Order from the beginning. That means that while he may have appeared to join the DEs he was never really a DE. That's a new idea. But I think if that was the case, DD would have said, "he never really left our side." " Cathy wrote: Unless DD was keeping his cards close to his chest...as they say in poker. He didn't want anyone in the MOM or WW in general to know Snape was only pretending to be a DE. vmonte responds: How do you pretend to be a DE? Voldemort doesn't seem like the kind of guy that would just let his people sit on the side lines while he did all the killing. In fact, Voldemort often has his DEs do the dirty work for him. I like Snape's character but I see him as a bad guy. Even if he is on the good side now, I'm pretty sure he has done some despicable things in the past. I'm worried that Harry's gut feeling about Snape is going to turn out to be right. vmonte From tzakis1225 at netzero.com Tue Jul 6 16:16:06 2004 From: tzakis1225 at netzero.com (demetra1225) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 16:16:06 -0000 Subject: Moody v Moody In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104616 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: [Snip] It doesn't surprise me that Fake Moody is nicer than the real > one--unfortunately some of the nicest people you'll ever meet are > con artists. Of course they're helpful--how else could they get > you to rely on them? They beg for the chance to do you favors, all > the better to set the hook. {snip} Demetra: It doesn't really surprise me either. This is a good example of using the Slytherin cunning (and I am assuming Crouch Jr was a Slytherin - I can't recall any canon on the subject). Knowing how to manipulate people is a great way to achieve the results you want. I see Fake Moody as a good lesson that just because someone is nice does not mean that they are on your side or can be trusted. Kind of a counter to Snape who is as nasty as can be, but on the right side (at least as far as we know) From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 16:19:50 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 16:19:50 -0000 Subject: The Dark Lord In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104617 Becki wrote: We have to remember that it is not Trelawney that is making the prophecies, it is her great-great-grandmother. That is 5 generations prior. Cassandra may not have even lived during the rein of the Dark Lord. However, to refer to him as The Dark Lord is a more general term, instead of calling him Voldemort or Tom Riddle, which is more specific, which the prophecy is not. It is very general when it comes to names. vmonte responds: Could you point me to where the books state that Trelawny is channeling Cassandra. Thanks, vmonte From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 16:21:56 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 16:21:56 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 22 - St. Mungo's Hospital In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104618 Wendy, hebridean_black_dragn, wrote: > While I was mostly disappointed with Moody, I also think that a great > many of the adults in Harry's life "dropped out" on him in OoP. While > I *was* disturbed by Harry's behaviour in OoP, in some ways it's hard > for me to fault him too much, as he's going through some serious > stuff in this book without a whole lot of support from the adults in > his life. I think the eavesdropped conversation at the end of this > chapter is a good illstration of this. Del replies : This has been discussed before : support is not something the WW seems to care about. Harry doesn't get it, Sirius doesn't get it, Neville doesn't get it, and so on. No matter how painful one's life might be, one is still expected to deal with it on one's own or with the help of one's friends. Even family doesn't seem to count much : the Weasleys, a tight family is ever there was one, don't really help each other unless something really bad happens. Wendy wrote : > On the surface, perhaps, it doesn't sound so bad. They don't really > say anything awful about Harry. But it's not so much *what* was said > as the *way* it was said. Del replies : You have to remember one thing : we don't *see* what the characters look like while they are talking. Words and the tone used to say them can tell a lot about what someone means, but not always. Even visual clues can be misleading or not very informative, but words even more so. Wendy wrote : > When I read that, I was really struck with the feeling that they talk > about Harry as he if were a stranger, not a person that they know and > about whom they care. When Moody calls him "the Potter kid," it > sounded so *cold* to me, and I felt Moody was speaking about Harry > merely as an aspect of Moody's job as an auror. Moody sees Harry as > something to be "dealt" with, rather than seeing him as a person. And > it seemed clear to me that even if Moody does see Harry as a > "person," there's no affection there for Harry. Del replies : Forgive me for asking, but why *should* he have any affection for Harry ??? He barely knows him ! And he sure doesn't understand him much : he thought showing Harry a picture of his dead parents among their dead friends was something of a *treat*. And yes I think Moody sees Harry as a thing to be dealt with, just like many teachers and headmasters do some of their students. Moody doesn't know Harry personally, he doesn't work alongside him, but he still has to protect him and work in a secret organisation to do so. Harry is indeed just an aspect of Moody's job as an Order member, not a friend or something. Wendy wrote : > I was also less than thrilled with Molly, who doesn't come to his > defense when Moody says they *all* know there's something funny about > Harry. In fact, her response almost makes me think that she agrees, > but that since Dumbledore was worried about Harry, then perhaps > *that* mitigates Harry's "funny-ness" somehow. Del replies : But there IS something funny about Harry ! Come on, he's the Boy Who Lived, the only person ever to have survived an AK. He's got a weird connection to LV through his scar, he keeps running into LV and getting away thanks to strange help. He *is* funny indeed, and there's no denying that, no matter how much you love Harry. Molly loves Harry, but she knows that there's something odd about him, so why should she scold Moody for saying so ? Wendy wrote : > In any case, this scene really disturbed me. I was uncomfortable with > the tone of the discussion about Harry, and I also had a lot of anger > and sadness that Harry had to hear them talking about him in this > way. Sure, they didn't know he was listening, but that doesn't make > me feel any better about what they said. I actually had to put the > book down after reading this so I could have a good cry about how > DAMNED UNFAIR it was of all of them to treat Harry this way, when > he'd never done anything to bring this upon himself. I was really > angry and hurt on Harry's behalf. Del replies : I don't understand. I don't see what's so unfair about stating the facts and discussing them *away from Harry's ears*. Isn't it what parents do when their kid starts acting up ? Isn't it what teachers do when a kid is misbehaving ? Isn't it what kids and adults alike do about someone a bit weird they know ? They *talk* about those people. It's perfectly normal, even if that person didn't try to bring that on themselves. If a handicapped kid is to go to a new school for example, the headmaster will discuss the matter (notice that I did say "the matter", not the kid : very cold and impersonal indeed) with the kid's teachers, and away from the kid, at least for a moment. Moreover, I don't see that Molly at least doesn't care for Harry, quite the opposite. Her husband has just been attacked by a mortal enemy, he's not cured yet, and yet she still tries to get some answers about Harry out of Moody, and she points out that DD is worried about him. That to me indicates that she cares about Harry *a lot* but doesn't know how to deal with him. Wendy wrote : > This was just one of several scenes when I felt the adults in Harry's > life showed that they don't care about him (at least, not as much as > I'd like to see), and that they really didn't offer him the support > they could have. Del replies : I disagree. I think the adults showed many times that they do care about Harry. Molly does her best to make him feel good when she's around him, and she gives him advice to try and keep him safe. DD takes very difficult decisions whose only goal is to keep Harry safe and as little involved in the war as possible. Sirius goes out of his way to support Harry. Lupin is always there, but Harry just won't go to him and Remus is not the kind to impose himself on anyone. Even McGonagall shows more obviously than ever than she cares about Harry, either in the talk they have after Harry's shouting match with Umbridge, or during the Carreer Advice meeting. And after all, if the Order took all those pains to keep the Prophecy safe, isn't it first and foremost for Harry's well-being ? They could just have sent him in there under a Cloak or something and have him remove the Prophecy as soon as they figured that it was what LV was after, but DD didn't want to burden Harry with that, and the rest of the Order agreed to that. That's a *big deal*, IMO. Wendy wrote : > I think that, while Harry did make some huge mistakes in the book > (leading, of course, to huge consequences), a huge chunk of the blame > must lie with the adults in his life who just don't quite know how to > give Harry the help that he needs when he needs it. Del replies : I don't have a problem with that, personally, because it feels so REAL to me. In RL either, adults just don't know how to give help and support to kids. Even the most loving parent can very easily find themselves confronted to their teenage kid who craves their support and affection. The parent gives and gives and gives, but the kid feels like he's not receiving anything, simply because the two don't speak the same language. It happens so often that it's almost a cliche. Morevoer, it doesn't help that Harry won't ask for help when he needs it, and won't take it when it's offered to him. He keeps wanting to do things on his own as much as possible, and he keeps lying and saying that everything is fine even when everything is wrong. It's a perfectly normal attitude for a teenager, but it doesn't help : how can the adults help when they don't even know that Harry needs help and when Harry won't take their help anyway ? Are they supposed to *guess* and then to *impose* their help on him ? I have a feeling Harry wouldn't be grateful for that... Del From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 16:35:17 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 16:35:17 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 22 - St. Mungo's Hospital In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104619 Wendy wrote : > Ginny and the others want to go to St. Mungo's immediately, but > Sirius tells them that they can't - that it would raise suspicion for > the Weasley children to arrive before their mother. When the twins > argue, Sirius adds that they don't want to draw attention to the fact > that Harry is having visions of things happening hundreds of miles > away, because of the danger in the Ministry learning that > information. The Weasleys become angry, saying they don't care about > The Order, and when Sirius tells them that their father knew what he > was getting into, Fred snaps at Sirius, "That's easy for you to say, > stuck here . . . I don't see you risking your neck!" Sirius becomes > pale, but remains calm, telling them again that they must be patient > until they hear from Molly. Del comments : Throughout the verbal fight between the Weasley kids and Sirius, I felt like screaming at the twins "Here ! That's EXACTLY why nobody wants to make kids like you members of the Order ! Because you're unreliable under pressure". Molly might be annoying at times but she's right : the kids are *kids* and must to a certain extent be treated as such. To what extent is the problem of course. Del From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 6 16:40:34 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 16:40:34 -0000 Subject: Harry and theHalf Brother Prince Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104620 Carol wrote: >She (Petunia) is a Muggle. And Mark's parents must be too, since the MoM has no record of any witch or wizard in Little Whinging. (They wouldn't know about Mark) So how come they know about Hermione, whose parents are also Muggles. And there are several other students with Muggle parentage who have been duly sent their letters. What's so special about Mark? Of course, it's one thing for the MoM to be unaware of his existence, but another for DD not to know about him. Getting a bit confused about who is eligible and who isn't. What about the lady with the goodies trolley on the Express. She is definitely stated to be a witch, so what is she doing pushing trollies around for a living? Was she a Hogwarts drop-out or are only certain little wizards and witches offered the chance of a first-rate magical education. And what criteria do they use to choose them? Sorry if this has been thrashed to death already. I have been away from my computer for a while and am madly trying to catch up. BTW nice to see Carol back. Have you been away or just too busy to post? Sylvia From entropymail at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 16:46:03 2004 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 16:46:03 -0000 Subject: Mark Evans Is....NOBODY! (From JKR's Site) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104621 Well, it's official! Mark Evans is nobody important at all. Check out all of the details at JKRowling.com. Sorry, guys. :: Entropy :: From entropymail at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 17:01:11 2004 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 17:01:11 -0000 Subject: Diary!Tom Not So Separate From Voldemort? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104622 I just noticed this seemingly innocent bit on JKRowling.com, and I think it deserves a second look. It's in the FAQ section, and goes like this: Q: "In 'Chamber of Secrets' , what would have happened if Ginny had died and Tom Riddle had escaped the diary?" A: "I can't answer that fully until all seven books are finished, but it would have strengthened the present day Voldemort considerably." This struck me, particularly after reading several recent posts here about things such as the prophecy possibly referring to three people (Tom Riddle, Harry and Voldemort). I think JKR has given us a hint regarding the connection between Diary!Tom and Voldemort. Lots of us have come to see Diary!Tom as an entity separate from Voldemort, a seed planted long ago by Voldemort which has grown, with the unwitting help of Ginny, to an independent self. But this answer suggests to me that what happens to Diary!Tom happens to Voldemort. It suggests that they are one (in essence divided, perhaps? Ack!, don't get me started....) :: Entropy :: From ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 17:10:26 2004 From: ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com (A.J.) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 17:10:26 -0000 Subject: Animagus & Patronus Symbolism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104623 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Adan" wrote: > > PETER/RAT: > ~Often regarded as the image of avarice and greed > ~Often associated with serpents and moles. > > Adan: So, who is the mole? Or is there another spy? Or could we > substitute ferret(Malfoy)? > better. I hope not. Traditionally in the real world, ferrets were used for rodent control-- running into burrows to scare out the rats and mice, which people would then kill at the entrances (the Pied Piper was a ferreteer). I dunno whether JKR knows that and plans any symbolism of ferret vs rat (somebody getting PP?) In Asian culture, rats are smart and bring good luck, but we're obviously dealing with Western in the books. (Interestingly, it was a different species of rat than the one common today, that brought the plague and bad reputation.) aj (who has kept domestic ferrets AND domestic rats as pets, and they were both very nice!) From MadameSSnape at aol.com Tue Jul 6 17:17:50 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 13:17:50 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Return from the Underworld in Greek Mythology (Re: Sirius... Message-ID: <130.312982f5.2e1c38be@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104624 In a message dated 7/6/2004 11:48:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vmonte at yahoo.com writes: SOF: Actually, pretty much every HP novel has a complete journey including an Underworld descent and Return. The kids go through the trap door for the Stone in SS, down into the Chamber of Secrets to retrieve Ginny, beneath the willow to retrieve Ron, into the labyrinth to win the Triwizard Cup and into the Department of Mysteries to rescue Sirius. The Underworld can be symbolized. vmonte responds: Exactly. Which probably means that there is going to be a big chase at some point in the London underground (subway system?) and/or under Gringotts bank. ======================= Sherrie here: But I wasn't talking about a LITERAL Underworld - perhaps I should have said "Hades", instead. Either way - I meant the Realm of the Dead, whether it's the Elysian Fields, Helheim, or Tir-Nan-Og. Yes, perhaps Harry can go "there * back again" - but can he bring out one who is now the "property" of the Deadlands? My point was that that sort of thing never seems to turn out terribly well in Greek mythology. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Tue Jul 6 17:30:19 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 17:30:19 -0000 Subject: Trewlawney is her grandmother?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104625 "garybec" wrote: > Becki's thoughts; > We have to remember that it is not Trelawney that is making the > prophecies, it is her great-great-grandmother. That is 5 > generations prior. Cassandra may not have even lived during the rein > of the Dark Lord. However, to refer to him as The Dark Lord is a > more general term, instead of calling him Voldemort or Tom Riddle, > which is more specific, which the prophecy is not. It is very > general when it comes to names. ------ *am totally confused* What? Am I te only one confused here? Did I miss a whole slew of posts where this was determined and if so, can someone point me to a post ####??? Arya From jakejensen at hotmail.com Tue Jul 6 17:31:45 2004 From: jakejensen at hotmail.com (jakedjensen) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 17:31:45 -0000 Subject: HBP and COS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104626 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Casey" wrote: > Wasn't Seamus' parental revelation in PS/SS? He said his "Mam was a > with and his father was a Muggle." I don't remember a CoS discussion > about this. > > I'm not saying it isn't him, just that the revelation was in the > first book. > > Casey Casey, you are correct. Seamus did reveal his lineage both in book one and movie one. Curses! Just when I thought this cut scene thing was starting to make sense. The only thing salvaging this idea is if Jo Rowling was just talking about conversations she had had with Kloves in general about writing the screenplays (the conversation does not suggest this, in fact, it suggests they are talking about CoS). However, it is possible. So, that said, is there anyone out there with an idea of what scene Jo might have insisted stay in (not to understand the movie, but as clues for the book) now that we know all about this half blood prince stuff? Jake PS. Who still says the HBP is Seamus Finnegan, Godric Griffindor, or Tom Riddle. From greatelderone at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 17:36:58 2004 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 17:36:58 -0000 Subject: Return from the Underworld in Greek Mythology (Re: Sirius Black Poll) In-Reply-To: <20040705202807.74092.qmail@web90001.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104627 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sp. sot." > Well, first they both are trapped in a place with no obvious escape, Sirius in a office high in a tower and Gandalf high on the tower of Isengard. They both escape with the help of a flying creature, Sirius with buckbeak, Gandalf with an eagle. And they both seem to die, well at least Gandalf when everything seem to be over, Sirius when Dumbledore appears and everyone else stopped fighting and Gandalf when the Balrock had fallen in the abyss. I wonder if Sirius will follow the same course. I actually think it would be very exiting I would be glad to discuss it. GEO: Your analogy is pretty flawed I think. Unlike Sirius, Gandalf was the equivalent of an angel/minor god or spirit in Tolkien's cosmology and he couldn't exactly die in the same sense that humans could die and furthermore he was sent back after he died by the God of Tolkien's universe while in comparison such a force doesn't appeart to be active in Rowling's universe. From jlaming426 at aol.com Tue Jul 6 17:41:56 2004 From: jlaming426 at aol.com (jimlaming) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 17:41:56 -0000 Subject: Wands was:Re: CoS clues to Books 6 & 7 analysis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104628 smartone564 wrote: Do you mean to say, that LV tried to use Lily's wand to AK Harry, but that the same wand had put a protection over him? Therefore, some damage (like the scar, house going boom) and protection (didn't kill him, hurt LV) occured? jastrangfeld wrote: That is exactly what I'm saying! I figure somehow there may have been a scuffle, and he couldn't reach his own wand, and ended up grabbing Lily's. So what do you think? If hers was excellent for charm work, there's no reason she wouldn't charm it to protect her kids? "Childproofing" comes to mind as well. :) Jim remembers: IIRC during the duel in the graveyard, when Harry's and Voldie's wand are having the Priori Incantatem effect, both James and Lily come out of Voldie's wand. That wand was the wand that killed them. (With Lily dead, even if there was a struggle, he has time to pick up his own wand.) After Lily comes out of the wand, came the failed AK. What does a failed AK look like? See the discussion back at #103409 and several splinter threads around there. I believe it was Voldie's wand all along. Jim Laming From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Jul 6 17:43:31 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 17:43:31 -0000 Subject: Diary!Tom Not So Separate From Voldemort? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104629 Entropy: > I just noticed this seemingly innocent bit on JKRowling.com, and I > think it deserves a second look. It's in the FAQ section, and goes > like this: > > Q: "In 'Chamber of Secrets' , what would have happened if Ginny had > died and Tom Riddle had escaped the diary?" > > A: "I can't answer that fully until all seven books are finished, > but it would have strengthened the present day Voldemort considerably." > > This struck me, particularly after reading several recent posts here > about things such as the prophecy possibly referring to three people > (Tom Riddle, Harry and Voldemort). I think JKR has given us a hint > regarding the connection between Diary!Tom and Voldemort. Lots of us > have come to see Diary!Tom as an entity separate from Voldemort, a > seed planted long ago by Voldemort which has grown, with the unwitting > help of Ginny, to an independent self. > > But this answer suggests to me that what happens to Diary!Tom happens > to Voldemort. It suggests that they are one (in essence divided, > perhaps? Ack!, don't get me started....) Jen: This is interesting--don't remember it being on the FAQ last week. My first thought was this: Did 16 y.o. Tom Riddle choose to sacrifice something in his search for immortality, something preserved in his 16 y.o. Diary self? Some power perhaps, some 'deal' he made that he secretly reneged on by creating the diary and putting the power into Diary!Tom? I read this the opposite way though, Entropy! I think this gives weight to the idea TR was a seperate person who was finally extinguished when Harry killed Diary!Tom. And that makes me think it's plausible for Tom Riddle to be the HBP, and he renounced something about his origins to evolve into Voldemort. Jen Reese P.S.there's also a new FAQ about why the MOM couldn't send Sirius an owl and follow it to chase him down. From garybec101 at comcast.net Tue Jul 6 18:16:29 2004 From: garybec101 at comcast.net (garybec) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 18:16:29 -0000 Subject: Trewlawney is her grandmother?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104630 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" wrote: > "garybec" wrote: > > Becki's thoughts; > > We have to remember that it is not Trelawney that is making the > > prophecies, it is her great-great-grandmother. That is 5 > > generations prior. Cassandra may not have even lived during the rein > > of the Dark Lord. However, to refer to him as The Dark Lord is a > > more general term, instead of calling him Voldemort or Tom Riddle, > > which is more specific, which the prophecy is not. It is very > > general when it comes to names. > ------ > > *am totally confused* > > What? Am I te only one confused here? Did I miss a whole slew of > posts where this was determined and if so, can someone point me to a > post ####??? > > Arya Becki hopes to clairify; Sybil Trelawney is the great-great-grandaughter of the celebrated seer, Cassandra Trelawney, (pg314 am) as told to Unbridge. I thought it was obvious that Sybil was "channeling" the prophecy from Cassandra, both times, since #1, it was not her voice, #2 she doesn't have any recolection of the experience and actually flat out denies to to Harry, and #3, doesn't seem to have any other real seer powers. Maybe I was wrong to assume this theory? Becki From crobocker at aol.com Tue Jul 6 12:34:01 2004 From: crobocker at aol.com (c_robocker) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 12:34:01 -0000 Subject: Moody vs Moody In-Reply-To: <001201c4633d$f9c37e30$71c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104631 > Cathy wrote: > I have wondered, for some time, why FakeMoody spend so much time >teaching the Unforgivable Curses. He insisted Harry keep trying to >shake off the Imperious curse...put him under it four times until >he could get out of it completely. CRobo comments: I had thought perhaps FakeMoody wanted to tempt Harry with the curses in the hope that Harry would *like* the dark arts and perhaps want to join Voldemort. [In SS, Voldemort encouraged Harry to join him - although perhaps it was nothing more than a ruse to get the stone.] CRobo goes back to lurking. From stargaz77 at aol.com Tue Jul 6 13:06:17 2004 From: stargaz77 at aol.com (celestina707) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 13:06:17 -0000 Subject: Harry LIVES! (was: prophecy wording) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104632 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Justine" wrote: > Carole: > "either must die at the HAND of the other" > > Justine responds: > > So, the prophecy (which was worded carefully by Trelawney and JKR) > states that "either must die at the HAND (emphasis Carole's) of the > other." This brings me back to Dumbledore's look of triumph in > GoF. It is only after Harry tells him that Voldemort touched his, > Harry's, face, that Dumbledore's face takes on this expression. > Voldemort was, consequently, happy that touching Harry's face does > not harm him. > Dumbledore is triumphant > because *Harry did not die at Voldemort's HAND* and therefore > Voldemort must be vulnerable to the touch of Harry's HAND, and not > his FACE or any other part of his body. Wonderful theorizing, and now from SS pg. 299 (american edition) Dumbledore to Harry "Your mother died to save you. If there is one thing Voldemort cannot understand, it is love. He didn't realize that love as powerful as your mother's for you leaves its own mark. Not a scar, no visible sign.....to have been loved so deeply, even though the person who loved us is gone, will give us some protection forever. It is in your very skin." This confirms Carole's theory about the "hand" being the way that Harry can kill Voldemort. Celestina (who is glad to meet other adults who are as obsessed as she is with all things Harry Potter :) From Madydea at aol.com Tue Jul 6 15:48:51 2004 From: Madydea at aol.com (Madydea at aol.com) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 11:48:51 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Umbridge and Veritas Serum Message-ID: <154.3932ecb3.2e1c23e3@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104633 Karen asks >Veritus serum.....According to Snape, he gave Umbridge >the whole bottle for >use on Harry and told her "only a few drops should do it", >but the bottle was >apparently all used up by Umbridge. Any ideas on whom it >may have been used on >besides Harry, if anyone? I respond IIRC at the end of OoTP DD is defending Snape to Harry and states something like "It was Snape who gave Umbridge the fake Veritas Serum to use on you" (not a direct quote I don't have the book). So I don't think she had the real serum. I also think she DID use the entire vile on Harry's drink, she's a bit of an extremist lol Sonya [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From srobles at caribe.net Tue Jul 6 16:07:19 2004 From: srobles at caribe.net (anasazi_pr) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 16:07:19 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry and Hermione Foreshadowing in PoA movie? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104634 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "anthyroserain" wrote: > As JKR says on her website: > "'Does Hermione love Ron or Harry?' > I can't believe that some of you haven't worked this one out yet, > but I'm not going to answer because that would spoil the > arguments, which I enjoy." > > Big D's words about R/Hr being "subtle as getting hit in the head > with a brick" ring true to me. > > As Jen, I believe, said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. > > -Katie Well, I think that using that particular quote can be a double-edged sword for your argument that R/Hr is as "subtle as getting hit in the head with a brick" because JKR uses "worked this one out". If R/Hr is as obvious as getting hit in the head with a brick, there will be nothing to work out. Anasazi From garyfredogal at hotmail.com Tue Jul 6 13:38:31 2004 From: garyfredogal at hotmail.com (garyfredogal at hotmail.com) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 13:38:31 -0000 Subject: The FAQ says "Lily first" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104635 > Geoff: > Yes but if you accept the above canon (PS "The Man with Two Faces" > p.213 UK edition), you can't object to the Lily first theory. > The "echoes" appear from the wand in the order, last first, Cedric > being in that position. Therefore, as has been indicated, Lily must > come out of the wand first because she died after James. No, I am objecting to the posts that say that Lily *died* first, not that she came out of the wand first. Of course if she died before James she would arrive before James. "garyfredogal" From gelite67 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 14:09:24 2004 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 14:09:24 -0000 Subject: Snape Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104636 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Cathy wrote: > snip > > > > Of course he was a member of the Order...left to be a DE, then returned > > > to the Order. The "rejoined our side" is the second chance FakeMoody > > > was on about in "The Egg and the Eye" chapter of GoF: 'Course Dumbledore > > > trusts you [to Snape],' growled Moody, 'He's a trusting man, isn't he? > > > Believes in second chances.' > > Potionccat: > Interesting idea, that Snape was in the Order from the beginning. > That means that while he may have appeared to join the DEs he was > never really a DE. That's a new idea. But I think if that was the > case, DD would have said, "he never really left our side." > > Chinaskisnotes: > >> > > If Moody in GoF, who is a fake Moody, knows of this 'second chance', and > > this second chance is a switch of sides, then Voldemort knows about this > > already. > Potioncat: > Although, like some of the DEs who went to work for the MoM, Snape > could claim he was only pretending to be on DD's side. And I think > Crouch Jr. was unstable enough for his reports to be somewhat > questionable. The unanswered questions are, if Snape is a good guy, why did he leave Voldemort? And why does Dumbledore trust him so implicitly? I like to think that Snape informed Dumbledore that Harry was alive when Voldemort tried to kill Harry as an infant. Snape could have arrived after Lily had been killed. After all, if Voldemort was so weak after the attack on Harry, wouldn't he have needed help to escape? Snape could have contacted other Death Eaters to come get Voldemort, while Snape contacted Dumbledore and waited (unseen) for help to arrive. I think Snape was in love with Lily and couldn't bear the thought of seeing her only child, all that was left of her, killed. Of course, there is more than enough of James in Harry to royally irritate Snape, but that is precisely the point. Harry is a constant reminder of the woman he loved and the man he hated. Just a thought . . . "gelite" From drcarole71 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 16:35:04 2004 From: drcarole71 at yahoo.com (drcarole71) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 16:35:04 -0000 Subject: love conquers all Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104637 I don't think it fits the prophecy, but I think it would be interesting if "neither can live while the other survives" referred to concepts rather than to people. If you use love and hate as examples, the prophecy could be interpreted as "neither (love nor hate) can live while the other survives." By the way, is the love-magic protecting Harry from his mother alone, or does it include love for others or love for humanity? Is it possible that it isn't Harry specifically that could kill Voldemort, but love in general, which Harry has "in such quantities, but Voldemort has not at all?" Could Voldemort/Tom Riddle somehow feel love in the last book, killing Voldemort and leaving Riddle alive? For that matter, is there anyone Riddle could love? Is he capapble of love? Carole From gelite67 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 15:04:19 2004 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 15:04:19 -0000 Subject: CoS clues to Books 6 & 7 analysis (Ginny) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104638 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > "gelite67" wrote: > > I think > that Draco, bless his twisted little heart, should fall for Ginny, > who is, after all, a pureblood. She could pretend to be his > girlfriend to get information out of him. This would give Harry even > more to worry about. > > vmonte responds: > > There is no way that Ginny would ever go out with Draco, even if to > spy for the Order. The Malfoy family are slime. Arthur would have a > heart attack! And Lucius was part of a gang that almost killed Harry > in GoF! I'm not "predicting" that will happen, mind you, but I can picture a scenario in which Ginny would do it in such a way in which Draco would believe her, and then Lucius or Voldemort would use her as bait to bring Harry to him. "gelite" From pete_larkin at btinternet.com Tue Jul 6 17:33:44 2004 From: pete_larkin at btinternet.com (peter838169) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 17:33:44 -0000 Subject: Theory: Dumbledore to Teach Defence Against the Dark Arts? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104639 I was most interested after reading an essay on the Harry Potter Lexicon about who will be the new DADA teacher. I know there is much speculation about Bill Weasley, Fleur, Lupin or possibly Snape taking the position, but all have been found to have downfalls in the reasoning that they could take the position. I would like to make a speculation of my own and ask what people think about Dumbledore taking the position of Defence Against the Dark Arts teacher or possibly teaching a selected group of students. This theory comes in great contrast to the pattern of DADA teachers, seeing that in each book these characters are new, not previously mentioned in the preceding books. Each DADA teacher has played a major role in the plot of each book, I feel that even though Dumbledore is a key character he has yet to play a big physical role in the books i.e. always talked about but only appears for a longer period of time at the end of the books to sort-of explain the goings- on. If there was to be one DADA teacher to lift the jinx from the job, it would undoubtedly be Dumbledore. Or perhaps not, it may be that Dumbledore is one of the characters set to perish at the end of the books (he is getting on a bit!). Knowing JKR we should expect the unexpected and perhaps prepare to see Dumbledore die. Seeing as the series is coming to an end, this could easily fit in. Slightly off the point of DADA teachers, but more on the point of Dumbledore playing an even bigger role in the books, those who believe his middle name, Percival, could possibly mean "Peirce the Veil" may lead to theory that Dumbledore has something to with the revival of Sirius near the end. Seeing as we were only introduced to the unforgiveable curses in GoF (correct me if i'm wrong), it could be possible that there is magic of the opposite or something to do with the veil, but we will have to see about that as the mystery unfolds. If Dumbledore was to become DADA teacher, it could fit the pattern if he died sacrificing his life in a highly powerful spell to bring back Sirius or something of the sort. Perhaps even lifting the jinx on the job in doing so. I'd love to hear what you think about this theory, I know it might be a long shot, but anything could happen with JKR! Pete From iain.bartholomew at ntlworld.com Tue Jul 6 18:30:15 2004 From: iain.bartholomew at ntlworld.com (Iain Bartholomew) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 19:30:15 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Moody vs Moody, UCs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c46387$54982b50$0100a8c0@IAIN2> No: HPFGUIDX 104640 Cathy wrote: I have wondered, for some time, why FakeMoody spend so much time teaching the Unforgivable Curses. He insisted Harry keep trying to shake off the Imperious curse...put him under it four times until he could get out of it completely. CRobo comments: I had thought perhaps FakeMoody wanted to tempt Harry with the curses in the hope that Harry would *like* the dark arts and perhaps want to join Voldemort. [In SS, Voldemort encouraged Harry to join him - although perhaps it was nothing more than a ruse to get the stone.] Iain now: To be fair to him, it seems to have had an effect as Harry resorts to an UC in OoTP when he?s angry. Perhaps this is largely attributably to the seed sown by Crouch Jr in GoF? Oh, and hello. From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Tue Jul 6 16:46:49 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 6 Jul 2004 16:46:49 -0000 Subject: Trelawny and Dumbledore Message-ID: <20040706164649.31650.qmail@webmail31.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104641 Now that Mark Evans has been relieved from the burden of being a future candidate for HBP, I think it's going to be a close race between GG and TR. (Though I recived no comments on my theory of Slytherin being HBP). > > I have wondered, for some time, why Fake Moody spend so much time > > teaching the Unforgivable Curses. > > I think it was simply because that's what he's good at. As a Death > > Eater, he probably didn't have much need of DEFENCE against the Dark > > Arts spells, but he used the Unforgiveables frequently. Whether > > because he wasn't so good at the other stuff, or didn't want to teach > > true defensive methods and thereby help the anti-DA cause, or just > > that he stuck to what he knew and loved, he concentrated on the > > spells closest to his heart. Also, he was a bit nutty after years of > > Azkaban and house arrest, having brooded all that time, maybe he was > > just enjoying getting to use these curses again. Amey: I think I have read in GoF that he was teaching with permission from Dumbledore. I wonder what he told Dumbledore for this? Because I am sure he can't do any such thing even if he is Dumbledore's friend. So Dumbledore must have some reason to think that defence against these spells will be needed. And Harry needed it in graveyard. (I wonder why I come again and again to Dumbledore time travelling? Or does he know even more than we think, which means, he will be knowing evrything. Hmm... One more point for Dumbledore as my favourite, give me some pointers in defence of Hermione) > > As JKR says on her website: > > "'Does Hermione love Ron or Harry?' > > I can't believe that some of you haven't worked this one out yet, > > but I'm not going to answer because that would spoil the > > arguments, which I enjoy." Whose arguments, Ron vs Hermione or H/Hr shippers vs R/Hr shippers? That's one big quetsion, right? > > What if Trelawny really is a fraud. Ron seems to have more ability > > than she does. His jokes often come true--and they are very > > specific, unlike Trelawny's ambiguous comments. I wonder if someone > > could be feeding her their own agenda. If so, for what purpose? Is > > it to keep the Order and the De's busy and not focused? I really > > don't know. The fact that the prophecy calls Voldemort the Dark Lord > > (as you both pointed out) might be a clue. Is there a smart DE out > > there that is planning to bring down both the Order and the DEs? Has > > someone carefully written the prophecy to cater to Voldemort's > > megalomania, while at the same time feeding into his main insecurity: > > his fear of death. Amey here: But what about the Prophesy in PoA? Where does it fit into the *Unknown Person's* plans? > > Amey Chinchorkar" wrote:[snip] > Amey again :[snip] > > Phil: > > Sorry but I just boggled and I wanted a sanity check. > > I am not aware of any possible reason from canon to doubt that the man > > who appeared from Voldemort's wand in the graveyard scene was anyone > > other than James Potter. > > This would appear to be concrete proof that James Potter did indeed > > die at Godric's Hollow, just as Voldemort confirmed. > > Which man are you saying "was not James"? Amey again: Sorry again. To make it clear (I must stop writing long mails), I was talking about Godric's Hollow, not graveyard. That is final, but we don't know as yet whose voice harry hears from JKR. > > Louis Badalament > > Book Four centered deeper around the Triwizard Tourament > > than the Goblet of Fire, yet it was through that Goblet that > > Voldemort was able to achieve the second body he sought, and begin > > restoring his old power, and it was by the Goblet that Harry was > > able to return to Dumbledore. Amey Here: He got back using Triwizard Cup, not the goblet. Of course, teh story really started when his name was put into the goblet, so that point is valid. > > Cathy: > > I thought it interesting, also, that Trelawney has been at Hogwarts, it seems, virtually > > since > > she made the prediction in front of Dumbledore. Is she there for her own protection? > > Dumbledore will not allow her to be removed from the school in OotP when Umbridge has her > > dismissed. Although Trelawney doesn't seem to have any idea what she said when she makes a > > prediction, I'm sure LV could find a way to break into her mind if she was in his clutches > > (as > > Bertha Jorkins was). Is that also the reason Snape has been at the school for 14 > > years...to protect him in some way? I don't know. Amey: But Trelawny proved more powerful than he thought, she had her second true prophesy. I wonder if she produces some more surprises in next books. And how about looking for clues in skies now? Now that Firenze is here to stay, I am sure we are going to have many mystic clues about planets. (Just imagine hearing the PoA prophesy from him) Amey, feeling sorry Firenze couldn't come earlier as that is sure going to cause some long discussions [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From medea.hk at ifrance.com Tue Jul 6 17:44:09 2004 From: medea.hk at ifrance.com (Medea) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 17:44:09 -0000 Subject: Diary!Tom Not So Separate From Voldemort? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104642 > But this answer suggests to me that what happens to Diary!Tom happens > to Voldemort. It suggests that they are one (in essence divided, > perhaps? Ack!, don't get me started....) > > :: Entropy :: When I read this part of the faq, I tought that Ginny death would maybe not have strengthened Voldemort magically, but physically. In CoS, Voldemort was still bodyless. Tom, stealing Ginny's life, would have been out of the diary, real and palpable - or I suppose so. I don't know what kind of body - maybe not flesh and bones - but at least solid. I think that would have been a perfect opportunity for Voldemort to get a body back by possessing Tom's - It would have been a lot more practical for him than animals, and I don't think that doing that to a 50 years old memory of himself would have bothered him. Medea From poobs at insightbb.com Tue Jul 6 18:10:52 2004 From: poobs at insightbb.com (Melissa Adams) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 13:10:52 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] 24 hours again References: <1088860311.25500.347.m12@yahoogroups.com> <002301c4612f$e9a0c040$184a6d51@f3b7j4> Message-ID: <00bd01c46384$9346a550$6401a8c0@Pete> No: HPFGUIDX 104643 All we know is that "one of" Dumbledore's spies in the DEs warned him that Voldemort was after the Potters (sorry, it's [unknown] again - gets everywhere, [unknown]...). We don't even know if it's the same [unknown] that tipped him off about the attack on Godric's Hollow. I have always thought that the DE who warned DD was Snape. Why else would DD trust Snape?? I don't think that Pettigrew was a double spy or anything like that he is too weak and self serving. ~~ Brightest Blessings~~ Melissa come visit us ~~email me ~~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 18:49:25 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 18:49:25 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 22 - St. Mungo's Hospital In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104644 Del comments : Throughout the verbal fight between the Weasley kids and Sirius, I felt like screaming at the twins "Here ! That's EXACTLY why nobody wants to make kids like you members of the Order ! Because you're unreliable under pressure". Molly might be annoying at times but she's right : the kids are *kids* and must to a certain extent be treated as such. To what extent is the problem of course. vmonte responds: I don't really blame the Weasley kids for getting upset. This argument happens right after the children find out that their father was attacked by a snake. Their father could be dead or dying for all they know. If my father was mortally wounded and someone told me 'well your father knew what he was getting into,' I would probably say "sr%w you and your Order" too. I think that the children should be allowed in the Order. It's obvious to me that DD is training them anyway. The way I see it, Harry and gang are the ones who have been doing all the hard work anyway. vmonte From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 6 18:52:01 2004 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 19:52:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: two crazy theories: Harry will die and HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040706185201.92679.qmail@web25102.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104645 --- Louis Badalament wrote: --------------------------------- ...I have to tell you I see very little possibility of the Half Blood Prince being the Trio. Just look at the third book. There really wasn't anything roundabout or illusive about what it was headed. The title promised a 'Prisoner of Azkaban,' and we are given a fugitive who escaped from a place known as Azkaban. Rowling's titles tend to be rather direct, especially in regards to the main focus and (notably) the climax of the book. Book 1 dealt with Harry's search for the Stone; Book Two dealt with the mystery of the Chamber of Secrets; Book Three dealt with Sirius Black, in all frankness, Book Four centered deeper around the Triwizard Tourament than the Goblet of Fire, yet it was through that Goblet that Voldemort was able to achieve the second body he sought, and begin restoring his old power, and it was by the Goblet that Harry was able to return to Dumbledore. The Order of the Phonenix centered heavily around the resistance to Voldemort. If the trend is any indication, I think this Prince fellow is likely to be quite a character. When Rowling writes that there will be a Half Blood Prince, I believe she means exactly what she says. The sixth book will feature a male of some royal lineage, who is of half blood. ---------------------- Actually I agree with you that it's unlikely (though not impossible) the trio is the HBP of the title, and your examples are very valid. However I have had some emails and it was worthwhile saying that certainly the trio as a unit is a royal group. Another person compared the Trio to the Trinity, which is also three persons in one. Incidentally, I'm startled by one thing you said, namely "and it was by the Goblet that Harry was able to return to Dumbledore." Surely the TWTrophy wasn't the Goblet of Fire? Surely the trophy was a large ornamental cup totally different to the Goblet? And you said >>>Incidentally, what do you think the odds are that the Prince will be an adult? And what do you think the chances are that the Prince will be an aide to Voldemort, (as the Chamber of Secrets aided him,) as opposed to a force for good?<<< I don't know who the Prince will be. However so far all the owners of the titles have been good, in my opinion, although many will not agree. To understand what I mean please read my essay. 1. The Philosopher's Stone liberated Harry from attachments to physical wealth and health. 2. The Chamber of Secrets refers to the plexus sacralis at the bottom of the spine. Once the serpent is killed it is a sacred place. Harry was liberated from his karma there. 3. The Prisoner of Azkaban was Harry's Godfather, as is obvious (I still think the word "God" means something special here). 4. The Goblet of Fire is a cup that judges people, just like the Holy Grail. 5. The Order of the Phoenix obviously signifies the power of resurrection. 6. I guess the Half Blood Prince plays a part in Harry's liberation of his emotional ego. Listening to my subconscious "vibes" I get the impression he is good, although he may start off being bad, like the Prisoner, or the Chamber of Secrets. As I said in my post, I like the idea of the HBP being the Prodigal Son, i.e. a person who realises the error of his ways and wants to return to his origins in a state of contrition. I'm only saying this because you ask, and because like everyone else I love speculating. I'm not sure at all. Thanks for your encouraging remarks. Have fun! Hans in Holland ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From lcolbert at netins.net Tue Jul 6 18:59:30 2004 From: lcolbert at netins.net (lene) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 13:59:30 -0500 Subject: "childproofing" wands, and Neville in GoF In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200407061359.30477.lcolbert@netins.net> No: HPFGUIDX 104646 On Monday 05 July 2004 09:47 pm, jastrangfeld wrote: > That is exactly what I'm saying! I figure somehow there may have been > a scuffle, and he couldn't reach his own wand, and ended up grabbing > Lily's. So what do you think? If hers was excellent for charm work, > there's no reason she wouldn't charm it to protect her kids? > "Childproofing" comes to mind as well. :) Ok, here's a fun thought. Your comment about childproofing reminded me of the scene at the Quidditch tournament where Harry, Ron, and Hermione are walking past the various tents and see a toddler playing with a wand, making a slug grow larger. His momma runs out to stop him, saying something along the lines of "Mustn't play with Daddy's wand!" So... maybe baby Harry used mummy's wand to deflect the AK? I don't think this, really, but I like it anyway. One other thing sprang to mind this afternoon as I read GoF. Did FakeMoody use Imperio or some other nefarious bit of business on Neville when he invited him in for tea after upsetting him during class by showing the Cruciatus curse on the spider? I note that it isn't long after this that Ron makes one of his "fake predictions" in which he tells Harry to beware of a friend who is going to backstab him. Will Neville betray Harry at some point? I love Neville, and would hate to see this happen, but I also don't think FakeMoody was sincerely interested in comforting Neville during that private teatime. (I have so much fun trying to detect wheels within wheels within wheels...) Lene' From meriaugust at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 19:14:18 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 19:14:18 -0000 Subject: The Prophecy: Harry's interpretation and reaction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104647 snippin Carin and my original posts to: Carin: > Whatever the prophecy _really_ means, I can see Harry deciding (at > least in the near term) that it authorizes him to be reckless. (Cf. > Achilles.) > > Carin Meri back again: I see your point, but haven't we allready seen Reckless!Harry? Like in PoA when he blows the Dursley popsicle stand after blowing up his aunt? Or when, in Order, he marches into the DoM with nothing and no one but his wand, five underage classmates and a vision of tortured Sirius in his head? Not so smart or well thought out. Even after the Dementor attack at the begining of book 5 Harry gets a little reckless, wanting to leave the Dursleys right away. The way I see things going, Harry might actually become more careful. Meri From aldhelm at earthlink.net Tue Jul 6 19:22:12 2004 From: aldhelm at earthlink.net (carin_in_oh) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 19:22:12 -0000 Subject: Ginny's death would have strengthened LV because... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104648 Another way to read JKR's answer about what would have happened if Ginny had died in the COS: What if Ginny turns out to be crucial to the defeat of LV? Her death would thus have eliminated what will turn out to be a powerful opponent to LV. Carin From patnkatng at cox.net Tue Jul 6 19:29:54 2004 From: patnkatng at cox.net (Katrina) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 19:29:54 -0000 Subject: "childproofing" wands, and Neville in GoF In-Reply-To: <200407061359.30477.lcolbert@netins.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104649 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, lene wrote: > On Monday 05 July 2004 09:47 pm, jastrangfeld wrote: > > > That is exactly what I'm saying! I figure somehow there may have been > > a scuffle, and he couldn't reach his own wand, and ended up grabbing > > Lily's. So what do you think? If hers was excellent for charm work, > > there's no reason she wouldn't charm it to protect her kids? > > "Childproofing" comes to mind as well. :) > > Ok, here's a fun thought. Your comment about childproofing reminded me of the > scene at the Quidditch tournament where Harry, Ron, and Hermione are walking > past the various tents and see a toddler playing with a wand, making a slug > grow larger. His momma runs out to stop him, saying something along the lines > of "Mustn't play with Daddy's wand!" So... maybe baby Harry used mummy's wand > to deflect the AK? > > I don't think this, really, but I like it anyway. > > One other thing sprang to mind this afternoon as I read GoF. Did FakeMoody use > Imperio or some other nefarious bit of business on Neville when he invited > him in for tea after upsetting him during class by showing the Cruciatus > curse on the spider? I note that it isn't long after this that Ron makes one > of his "fake predictions" in which he tells Harry to beware of a friend who > is going to backstab him. Will Neville betray Harry at some point? I love > Neville, and would hate to see this happen, but I also don't think FakeMoody > was sincerely interested in comforting Neville during that private teatime. > (I have so much fun trying to detect wheels within wheels within wheels...) > > Lene' Katrina: Crouch!Moody did have an ulterior motive: GoF, Ch 14 "The Unforgivable Curses" (Scholastic HB, p. 221): They went up to the dormitory to fetch their books and charts, to find Neville there alone, sitting on his bed, reading. . . "You all right, Neville?" Harry asked him. "Oh yes," said Neville, "I'm fine, thanks. Just reading this book Professor Moody lent me. . . ." He held up the book: _Magical_Water_Plants_of_the_Mediterranean._ GoF, Ch 35, "Veritaserum" (Scholastic HB, p.677): Didn't you realize that the book you needed was in your dormitory all along? I planted it there early on, I gave it to the Longbottom boy, don't you remember? _Magical_Water_Plants_of_the_Mediterranean._ It would have told you all you needed to know about gillyweed. From pcaehill2 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 6 19:03:51 2004 From: pcaehill2 at sbcglobal.net (pcaehill2) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 19:03:51 -0000 Subject: Moody vs Moody In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104650 > > Cathy wrote: > > I have wondered, for some time, why FakeMoody spend so much time > >teaching the Unforgivable Curses. He insisted Harry keep trying to > >shake off the Imperious curse...put him under it four times until > >he could get out of it completely. ...And I always was under the impression that the fake moody was "testing" out harry's powers, to see how well (or poorly) he'd respond to the imperious curse, maybe to give voldy a "heads up" on harry, along the lines of: "My Lord--H. seems unusually resistant to the imperious; you may have to try something more intense, at least until he learns occlumency..." (sheer speculation, of course) Pam From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Tue Jul 6 19:34:51 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 19:34:51 -0000 Subject: "childproofing" wands, and Neville in GoF In-Reply-To: <200407061359.30477.lcolbert@netins.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104651 Len: > Did FakeMoody use > Imperio or some other nefarious bit of business on Neville when he invited > him in for tea after upsetting him during class by showing the Cruciatus > curse on the spider? I note that it isn't long after this that Ron makes one > of his "fake predictions" in which he tells Harry to beware of a friend who > is going to backstab him. Will Neville betray Harry at some point? I sincerely hope not. It was my understanding that Fake!Moody only wanted to pass on the book that contained reference to the gillyweed. That's why he was so interested. Plus he probably was there when Bella tortured Neville's parents, so perhaps he wanted to see the effect this had had on Neville! Him being evil n evrything!! I think (and hope) that Neville will come into his own in the next two books, with a new wand and the determination we saw in the DA meetings, I believe that he'll become Fab!Neville!! ;o) Aggie From sofdog_2000 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 19:52:54 2004 From: sofdog_2000 at yahoo.com (sofdog_2000) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 19:52:54 -0000 Subject: love conquers all In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104652 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "drcarole71" wrote: > > I don't think it fits the prophecy, but I think it would be > interesting if "neither can live while the other survives" referred > to concepts rather than to people. > If you use love and hate as examples, the prophecy could be > interpreted as "neither (love nor hate) can live while the other > survives." > By the way, is the love-magic protecting Harry from his mother alone, > or does it include love for others or love for humanity? Is it > possible that it isn't Harry specifically that could kill Voldemort, > but love in general, which Harry has "in such quantities, but > Voldemort has not at all?" > Could Voldemort/Tom Riddle somehow feel love in the last book, > killing Voldemort and leaving Riddle alive? For that matter, is > there anyone Riddle could love? Is he capapble of love? > > Carole SOF: The countercharm protecting Harry is specifically his mother's love. It doesn't depend on anything else. The charm protecting Harry in the care of his relatives is specifically built on Aunt Petunia's blood relationship to Lily Potter. It doesn't depend on emotions or attitudes or anything else. Your questions about love and Voldemort are interesting. I think that Harry is the only person with the opportunity and ability to 'infect' Voldemort with love. He is the only person about whom Voldemort is actually connected. Harry being the flip-side of the coin, his grief over losing Sirius Black may possibly have struck a distant chord with Voldemort. Both were orphans with only Hogwarts and wizard friends to sustain them. And unloving relatives in the world. Interesting question. From tzakis1225 at netzero.com Tue Jul 6 20:00:39 2004 From: tzakis1225 at netzero.com (demetra1225) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 20:00:39 -0000 Subject: Some Serious points in favour of Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104653 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lavaluvn" wrote: > You are absolutely right, my bad! I never even saw the original post > about the Firebolt being an "apology", just jumped right in the > middle. An obvious and embarassing case of movie contamination. > After not posting for so long I guess I went a little overboard. > > Thanks for setting it straight, > Andromeda Demetra: I was the one who originally posted about the Firebolt, and to clarify it was an (admittedly feeble) attempt at sarcasm. Here is what I wrote: Ron was sitting up in bed, the hangings torn from one side, a look of utmost terror on his face. "Black! Sirius Black! With a knife!" "What?" "Here! Just now! Slashed the curtains! Woke me up!" (PoA, page 266) So, Sirius decides he needs to exact revenge on PP, so he goes after Scabbers, and by default Ron, when they are asleep. What did he intend to do with/to Ron? Do you really think he was planning to carefully isolate the rat and stab it while causing no harm to Ron? Or did Sirius think that any harm that came to Ron was incidental to his need to get revenge? Great Godfather he is ? willing to kill/harm Harry's best friend. But he sent Harry a firebolt, so that probably would make it even in Sirius' mind. I don't now, nor did I ever believe that the Firebolt was sent as "an apology". I do, however, believe that in his single minded pursuit of Wormtail, Sirius would have harmed Ron if Ron got in his way. Demetra From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Jul 6 20:02:30 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 20:02:30 -0000 Subject: The Prophecy: Harry's interpretation and reaction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104654 Carin wrote:: > > Whatever the prophecy _really_ means, I can see Harry deciding (at > > least in the near term) that it authorizes him to be reckless. (Cf. Achilles.) Meri back again: > I see your point, but haven't we allready seen Reckless!Harry? Like > in PoA when he blows the Dursley popsicle stand after blowing up his > aunt? Or when, in Order, he marches into the DoM with nothing and no > one but his wand, five underage classmates and a vision of tortured > Sirius in his head? Not so smart or well thought out. Even after the > Dementor attack at the begining of book 5 Harry gets a little > reckless, wanting to leave the Dursleys right away. The way I see > things going, Harry might actually become more careful. Jen: JKR told us in the Book Day chat that Harry will have to master his emotions in Book 6: ****Field: Regarding Harrys subconscious feelings, how has it changed from book 1 to book 5? JK Rowling replies -> Well he's obviously been through a lot since book one and book five was the book when he cracked up a little. In book six, the wizarding world is really at war again and he has to master his own feelings to make himself useful.***** I thought the end of OOTP foreshadowed better days ahead for Harry, especially the moment when he walked away from the train station toward the sunlight, with the Dursleys behind him. And by better days, I mean Harry will feel more supported, more sure of himself and having a better understanding of the situation at hand. (This last part may be wishful thinking on my part, so *I* can better understand the situation ). Maybe it will happen quickly, maybe it will be a progression over the course of Book 6, but it looks pretty definite we'll see an emotional change in Harry, and probably a change in how he approaches situations in general. Jen Reese From tzakis1225 at netzero.com Tue Jul 6 20:17:26 2004 From: tzakis1225 at netzero.com (demetra1225) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 20:17:26 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited--emotional maturity (Very long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104655 Boy, it's been a long weekend. I come back and find myself over 500 messages behind. I should probably be catching up on all the posts, but for some reason (can I claim Imperius?) I feel compelled to respond to some of the posts on the Sirius thread. I'm going to try to reply to a few different issues in the same post, so I apologize for the length. I'm paraphrasing but someone asked why bother picking apart the characters. I look at it this way ? we have been handed a number of pieces to a puzzle, but not enough to figure out the picture yet. So we dig into existing canon and it is like peeling an onion ? under each layer is another. As I try to fit the pieces together, I look at the characters and how they fit in. What is their role? What is their backstory? What is their motivation? Of course, each of views the characters through a filter of our own experiences and perceptions. I'm going to explain my personal "filter" at the end of this post, but for now I'll say that I believe that JKR intends us to see Sirius as a "good guy". I think that his life is tragic. He was raised with wealth and privilege but had a terrible mother, so I assume he had a less than ideal family life. He suffered greatly as an adult, losing his friends (surrogate family), was falsely imprisoned for 12 years. He is likely depressed and perhaps even occasionally loses touch with reality. I have a great deal of sympathy for his character, even though I don't really like him. I'm going to try to explain why I have a problem with his character and respond to some of the issues others have raised. Jocelyn wrote in post #104145 [snip] I read a scientific article recently which said that there is a region of the brain which engages when considering consequences. This develops at different rates in different people, but generally is finished developing in most young women by their late teens, however in many males it may not develop until the late 20s. Obviously there is a spread in individual development which you may imagine finishes later in the male population. Demetra: I haven't read that particular article, but I don't think the concept is particularly new. In an Adolescent Psychology course I took in college, and we're talking early 80's, we had a lengthy class discussion on whether the age for obtaining a driver's license should be raised to 18 for males since their impulsivity often results in very poor choices when driving resulting in high accident rates for teen males. But I think we need to keep in mind what this fact does not mean. It does not mean that teen/young adult males do not know right from wrong or that they cannot control their impulses at all. If that were the case, one could argue that every male prisoner under age 30 should be released because they weren't to blame for their actions. Remember too, impulsivity is a split second thing. It is the decision to pull out in front of that car going 70mph. But when you have the time to think about an action, then you can't blame impulsiveness for it. This is why I have a problem with the argument that Sirius was simply acting like a typical impulsive teen with the Prank. It is clear that he knows that a werewolf is dangerous. Besides being friends with and running with Lupin, we know that he has learned about werewolves in class before the prank. In the penseive scene in OotP we learn that there were questions about werewolves on the DADA OWL. I can see no way that he didn't know that Snape could have been killed. And if it was an impulsive act that caused him to send Snape to the Shack in the first place, he had time to re-think his actions, but he didn't. He had enough time to tell James and for James to go and save Snape. It is this callous disregard for Snape's life, and for Lupin who is his friend, that I have a problem with. Plus the fact that he never seems to show any remorse for his action. The only response we ever hear from Sirius about the event was that Snape deserved it. Even if we are shown in future books that Severus something horrible to Sirius that Sirius thought his actions were justified, what about Lupin? Katie wrote in her post # 104168 [snip] Then why place so much importance on Sirius' behavior in the Pensieve scene? I don't think he comes out too much worse in that memory than anyone else (except Lily, of course.) Demetra: I place importance on the whole Pensieve scene because it is, as far as I know, the only canon evidence of the dynamic between MWPP, with a side of Lily and Snape. Someday I hope to pick apart the whole scene because I think it is packed with information and insights into each of the characters. As a quick rundown though, I think we see that James and Sirius were the ringleaders. They clearly have a close friendship, perhaps even bringing out the best and worst in each other. Peter is shown as a hanger-on, maybe even desperate to be friends with these two cool guys. James seems to enjoy the attention. Sirius dismisses Peter with a rather cruel comment about Wormtail wetting himself. Sirius then also dismisses Lupin by telling him essentially, I don't need to study so why should I bother to help you study? In both situations Sirius is coldly dismissive of his friends. Sherry Gomes wrote in her post # 104180 [snip] About his teasing Lupin, well, I am disabled. I am blind. My best friends can make teasing cracks to me, and it is funny. [snip] I am quite sure that Lupin never minded Sirius teasing him. [snip] Demetra: Perhaps when they were talking about the werewolf questions on the OWL. But not in the following passage: "I'm bored," said Sirius. "Wish it was full moon." "You might," said Lupin darkly from behind his book. (OotP, page 645) No, I think that Lupin did mind Sirius' comment. Why else would he reply "darkly". I think it was a thoughtlessly cruel comment on Sirius' part, perhaps one of those impulsive outbursts. But notice, even when Lupin calls him on it, there is no apology. I don't even think Sirius caught on that he was being obnoxious. I'm going to make only one more comment before my fingers start cramping and I put anyone who has read this far to sleep. I said I would explain how I personally look at the Pensieve scene and the Prank. I have a 9 year old son who has ADD and has a learning disability. He has been on the receiving end of some schoolyard bullying because of "what he is". As any Mom will attest, each and every instance when your child is hurt is like a knife through your heart. So when I look at the Pensieve scene, I put my son in Lupin's place and I can't see Sirius as anything but an arrogant, self- centered jerk. And when I think of the Prank, I put my son in Snape's place (even though my son probably has the kindest un- Snapelike heart you can imagine) or Lupin's place and I can't fathom Sirius' casually shrugging off what could have meant death for both Snape and Lupin. Demetra From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Tue Jul 6 20:23:32 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 20:23:32 -0000 Subject: Trewlawney is her grandmother?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104656 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "garybec" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" wrote: > > "garybec" wrote: > > > Becki's thoughts; > > > We have to remember that it is not Trelawney that is making the > > > prophecies, it is her great-great-grandmother. That is 5 > > > generations prior. Cassandra may not have even lived during the > rein > > > of the Dark Lord. However, to refer to him as The Dark Lord is > a > > > more general term, instead of calling him Voldemort or Tom > Riddle, > > > which is more specific, which the prophecy is not. It is very > > > general when it comes to names. > > ------ > Becki hopes to clairify; > > Sybil Trelawney is the great-great-grandaughter of the celebrated > seer, Cassandra Trelawney, (pg314 am) as told to Unbridge. I > thought it was obvious that Sybil was "channeling" the prophecy from > Cassandra, both times, since #1, it was not her voice, #2 she > doesn't have any recolection of the experience and actually flat out > denies to to Harry, and #3, doesn't seem to have any other real seer > powers. > Maybe I was wrong to assume this theory? --------------------- I never assumed this. I just assumed it was some direct line to Fate or something that Trewlawney, through perhaps her Seer bloodlines, had a gift to do. Plus, isn't the voice some deep, rough voice? Not exactly what I would expect a little old lady great grandmother to sound like. I also kind of assumed most other prophecy renderings would occur in similar fashion where the one giving it is almost possessed with the Sight. Arya (who still wonders how all those prophecy sphere recordings came to be recordings....) From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 20:32:50 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 20:32:50 -0000 Subject: Harry's potions O.W.L - Outstanding-NOT. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104657 Fx wrote: Agreeing with your comment on Umbridge, I believe that her statement was more a reflection on the making of "strengthening solution" than the actual difficulty of the potion. Potioncat: I thouht she meant that the students were advanced in general and that she didn't approve of that potion in particular. Carol: Especially since it might just aid the kids in the battle against Voldemort, or at least the DEs? (Or, in her view, Dumbledore's plot to take over the MoM?) I'm hoping that some of Snape's potions will play a role in future books. This one sounds like a possible candidate. BTW, I agree with your view that she taught the students were a bit advanced for their level, which can be solely credited to Snape. (We never see Dumbledore interfering with a teacher's chosen curriculum or textbooks.) Carol From saraandra at saraandra.plus.com Tue Jul 6 20:36:28 2004 From: saraandra at saraandra.plus.com (amanitamuscaria1) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 20:36:28 -0000 Subject: Fear and Valour (Long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104658 > Valky: snip > Supposing of course that JKR is not about to cancel all possibility > that a single spell with a massive result could be one that is > carefully planned in secret and slowly piece by piece put together > to form the greater whole over the course of many years, > > (Much like the HP series ;D) Hear, hear! snip > So you see they are both actually not balanced themselves. Each are > the embodiment of the side that they are on. As I said there is only > one actual normal life between them and it hovers in the air of the > WW. This is why I say neither of them are actually living now, in a > way both of them are representing a half of the life that they > share. snip AmanitaMuscaria now: You're right, of course. I think Harry's petulance in OOtP has distracted me from his essential (in all senses) goodness. > Now at this point I really must say that Harry is Harry and LV is > LV. As Dumbledore said, they are essentially divided. They are not > each other, they are themselves and I really dont want my theory to > be lacking that distinction. > > So having said all this I surmise that I do agree, Amanita. The > balance must be restored. Of course if we look at it too long in > this way there is never really any threat to Harrys life, because LV > doesn't want balance restored he doesn't want the life. He wants to > keep the immortality. AmanitaMuscaria again : This is where the theories leave me feeling like the snake that swallows its own tail! > > In this way Harry faces a future much worse than death. If he > doesn't find a way to restore the balance and snatch away the life > from Voldy, after which I expect he may have no choice but to > sacrifice it, then he will be locked in an eternal battle with the > Dark Lord which will probably destroy Wizardom and lose him > everything that matters most to him. AmanitaMuscaria again : Yes. I concur. But what, then, are the possible results? The one I find logical is that they both die, only for the cycle to restart. But what about another thought? Linking in to the phoenix theme running through the series, and the phoenix feather wand cores - I wonder what Tom thought when he got his wand, by the way? Would that have sent him on his quest for immortality? I wonder if the two of them destroy each other in the 'final battle' to be reborn a phoenix? It's just a stray thought that wandered into my brain unbidden ... But how can you resolve the opposition of the embodiments of good and evil? Surely neutrality, as they should cancel each other out. Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 20:39:22 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 20:39:22 -0000 Subject: HBP Theory on Mugglenet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104659 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Gwen" wrote: > I just read a very intersting editorial on Mugglenet regarding the > identity of the HBP. It brought to mind quotes from several JKR > interviews. > > The actual editorial (in The Burrow section of Mugglenet and written > by Corinne), poses the theory that Dudley is the Half-Blood Prince. > It's quite an interesting read, but the salient points are these: > > a. Petunia is a squib Asian_lovr2: Petunia can't be a squib because he sister Lily was a MUGGLE-born, meaning Lily's parents were muggles. So unless Lily and Petunia have one or more different parents, then Petunia must be fully born to muggle too. However, Petunia could be a person with unrealized, latent, supressed, or of marginal magical powers. In addition, she could even know that she is marginally or latently magical, and that's why she fears Dudley might be magical. Even if she doesn't have this magical self-awareness, knowing that magic runs in her family, she could still be worried about Dudley. > Gewn continues: > > b. She feared her child having magical powers and struck a bargain > with Dumbledore: she would take Harry in if Dudley was essentially > stricken from the wizarding world. Asian_lovr2: It could be that is the reason they are so indulgent with Dudley; for fear that if Dudley ever gets truly upset, it might release latent magical powers the way it does with Harry. Despite their effort to quash the magic out of Harry, I think to some extent they viewed him as a lost cause, so they tried to punish the magic out of him rather than indulge it out as with Dudley. As far as striking a bargain with Dumbledore to keep Dudley away from the magic world, I can see that happening, although I also have several alternate scenerios as to why the Dursley's took Harry. A promise of hard cold cash being near the top of the list. Of course, there is no reason why it couldn't be a combination of things. I do see rough edges around the Dudley-the Wizard theory, but at the sametime, I can't deny the possibility. > Gwen continues: > > c. Dudley was seriously affected by the dementors. Although Lupin > says that even Muggles can sense them, I had the impression that > they would not react to the extent that Dudley did. > Asian_lovr2: I'm not sure I can support this supposition; muggles can feel Dementors, they just can't see them. I don't think I recall any evidence or implications that when muggles feel Dementors they feel them any less. > Gwen concludes: > > In re: the quotes I remembered, one was from a Barnes and Noble > interview with JKR in March 1999. When asked what Dudley eventually > does with his life, JKR responds "That is a question i would love to > answer, but it will ruin some surprises." Then she goes on to say > that Dudley's privileged existence will change for the worse in Book > 4 (when The Diet strikes). > > The second was at a Harry Pottermania conference in Vancouver on > Nov. 16, 2000. JKR said: "You should keep an eye on Dudley. It's > probably too late for Aunt Petunia and Uncle Vernon." > > Check out the editorial on Mugglenet. It's quite good. Asian_lovr2: This could be referring to Dudley being redeemed rather than Dudley being magical. Dudley and Harry at least talk to each other now, and Harry has saved Dudley's life, so the door could be opened for improvements in their relationship. Dudley may not be magical but a good left-hook to the jaw of a Death Eater will taken them down just as fast as a Stunning Curse. In that sense, I could see Dudley doing the right thing and helping Harry in a fight if the Dursley's house or family are attacked. As a side note, for all his bluster, I don't think Uncle Vernon would be too good in a real fight. I'll read the editorial and see if I come up with any more thoughts. However, at the moment, althought without evidence, I think Petunia is most likely to be the latently magical person. For what it's worth. Steve/asian_lovr2 From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 6 20:48:16 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 20:48:16 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited--emotional maturity (Very long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104660 Demetra: > As any Mom will attest, each and every instance when your child is > hurt is like a knife through your heart. So when I look at the > Pensieve scene, I put my son in Lupin's place and I can't see > Sirius as anything but an arrogant, self-centered jerk. And when I > think of the Prank, I put my son in Snape's place (even though my > son probably has the kindest un-Snapelike heart you can imagine) or > Lupin's place and I can't fathom Sirius' casually shrugging off > what could have meant death for both Snape and Lupin. SSSusan: Absolutely. Mom of two little ones here, and this makes perfect sense. I think you're right, too, that we were/are INTENDED to think of Sirius as one of the good guys. And because there were good aspects to his character, I have continued to issue *tempered* or *qualified* "defenses" of him. I think there were many good THINGS about him, but the recent spate of posts pointing out his failings have really made me reconsider the overall Sirius. I didn't put as much weight on the "I'm bored. I wish it were a full moon" comment to Lupin as you did **but** the fact that he doesn't say "Sorry" or even "Oh, yeah" when Lupin darkly responds "YOU might" DOES say something about Sirius' essential nature. In these situations [and I'd add the goading-Harry-in-the-fireplace one to the prank & the pensieve scene], he's arrogant and full of himself; he thinks of what will bring HIM fun & pleasure, not what others need or want. Perhaps this is one reason some don't see him as a good match for Harry. Harry is already somewhat impulsive & reckless at times, but he seems to have The Potter Concern for others, as well [assuming that was true of James as well as Lily as an adult]. The MOTIVES behind Harry's reckless or impulsive behaviors are often other- oriented: save Hermione and Gabrielle Delacour in the TWT; stop Snape--whoops Quirrell--from getting the SS; bring Cedric's body back; save Ginny in the CoS. Whatever it is, he's thinking of one other person OR doing something that he believes will help the WW at large. Sirius is a member of the Order; we know he's done "good things" before. But he also has this side--this cruel streak--which makes him less likeable and perhaps not THE best role model for Harry. IF Sirius had lived and IF Harry had defeated Voldy and lived himself, THEN Sirius might have developed into a person who was good for Harry, but as it stood in OoP, I have to conclude that he wasn't the greatest influence right then. Maybe that's why, as much as I wish Sirius hadn't died, now that he has, I'm *really* pulling for Lupin to step up & be Harry's mentor/father figure/teacher/friend. Siriusly Snapey Susan (wondering if Jen will kick her out of the Sirius Defense League for this) From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 20:58:40 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 20:58:40 -0000 Subject: HBP and CoS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104661 Berit wrote: The prince is of course... Mark Evans! It's just like > Rowling to introduce a new, important character just in passing... > (remember Sirius in PS/SS?) All we know about him is that he'll be > eleven when Hogwarts starts up in the autumn, and that he is a brave > little lad, having the guts to stand up to Dudley the bully. One of > his parents might very well be magical, making him a halfblood. Carol: Mark lives in the Muggle neighborhood of Little Whinging, where the MoM knows of no other witches or wizards other than Harry. They don't know about little Mark because of his age (though I'll bet his name was written down by the magical quill at Hogwarts when he was born), but they would know if his mother or father were magical and lived in Harry's neighborhood. And I think Dumbledore would have known about them, too, whereas he now treats Petunia as Harry's only living relative (Dudley clearly doesn't count). At best, Mr. Evans (Mark's father, perhaps a cousin of Lily's) might be a Squib passing as a Muggle, but my guess is that the Evans family's descent into Mugglehood occurred a few generations further back. I do agree (based on his name, age, and the "young Sirius Black"-style dropped hint) that Mark will show up at Hogwarts, and, given that he showed Dudley some "cheek," I think that chances are he'll be in Gryffindor. I wouldn't be surprised if he became friends with tiny but spirited Dennis Creevey. But I'll be very surprised if he's the HBP. In fact, I may stop trusting JKR's limited omniscient narrator altogether. Carol From tzakis1225 at netzero.com Tue Jul 6 21:11:07 2004 From: tzakis1225 at netzero.com (demetra1225) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 21:11:07 -0000 Subject: The Prophecy: Harry's interpretation and reaction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104662 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: {snip} > I thought the end of OOTP foreshadowed better days ahead for Harry, > especially the moment when he walked away from the train station > toward the sunlight, with the Dursleys behind him. And by better > days, I mean Harry will feel more supported, more sure of himself > and having a better understanding of the situation at hand. (This > last part may be wishful thinking on my part, so *I* can better > understand the situation ). {snip} Demetra: I agree with you, Jen. I know many people have posted that they think that Harry will be even more angry in Book 6, but I disagree. I think that the conversation with Luna was the turning point for Harry. I don't have my book with me, but I think that after the scene at the train station where the members of the Order confronted Vernon it even says that Harry felt better. Then he leads the way as he leaves with the Dursleys. I think this all points to a less emotionally volatile Harry who is more accepting of his situation. From Lynx412 at AOL.com Tue Jul 6 21:16:36 2004 From: Lynx412 at AOL.com (Lynx412 at AOL.com) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 17:16:36 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Diary!Tom Not So Separate From Voldemort? Message-ID: <15.2d07531f.2e1c70b4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104663 In a message dated 7/6/2004 1:04:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, entropymail at yahoo.com writes: > This struck me, particularly after reading several recent posts here > about things such as the prophecy possibly referring to three people > (Tom Riddle, Harry and Voldemort). I think JKR has given us a hint > regarding the connection between Diary!Tom and Voldemort. Lots of us > have come to see Diary!Tom as an entity separate from Voldemort, a > seed planted long ago by Voldemort which has grown, with the unwitting > help of Ginny, to an independent self. > > But this answer suggests to me that what happens to Diary!Tom happens > to Voldemort. It suggests that they are one (in essence divided, > perhaps? Ack!, don't get me started....) Possible, but what I saw it as was a new, young body for VaporMort. All his hard-learned knowledge and a new young form not recognizable as Voldemort would have made him much stronger...and, with his control of their Dark Marks he could have easily convinced his DEs of his true identity. The Other Cheryl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 21:18:33 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 21:18:33 -0000 Subject: Pensieve = Security Camera? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104664 > Carol wrote: > Occlumency seems to be a rare skill and Pensieves appear to be even > rarer. We've seen only one so far (Snape borrowed Dumbledore's for the occasion). The memories aren't stored there. When the Occlumens has finished studying them--objectively, in relation to each other, uncontaminated by the subjective context of his own mind--or when he no longer needs to conceal them from another person--he returns them to his own mind. vmonte responded: We don't really know that Snape borrowed DD's penseive. He may be doing the same thing that DD is doing -- looking at his memories in order to make connections. Carol: IIRC, Harry recognizes the Pensieve as the one from Dumbledore's office. But the point still holds that an Occlumens can place his own memories in it, but we've seen no evidence that he can do so for other people's memories. I'm not sure that even a Legilmens could. That's what I was cheifly arguing in the post you partially quoted. As for Snape studying his own memories, that's a distinct possibility, but he was clearly using the Pensieve for a different purpose (hiding his memories from Harry and thus from Voldemort) during the Occlumency lessons. A Pensieve (his own or Dumbledore's) would certainly come in handy for spy!Snape as a way of concealing thoughts and memories from Voldemort if he ever has to confront him directly rather than indirectly through Lucius Malfoy. Since Lucius is now in Azkaban, we may hear about Snape doing exactly that in Book 6. Unfortunately for the reader, a scene like that would be difficult to manage from Harry's POV unless it occurred in Order headquarters before school starts. But would Snape trust Harry anywhere near his memories after the incident in OoP? I doubt it very much. Too bad--I want to know what's going on in Snape's head! Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 21:32:44 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 21:32:44 -0000 Subject: CoS clues to Books 6 & 7 analysis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104665 Diana wrote: Harry kills Tom Riddle by 'killing' the diary. Maybe the way to kill Voldemort is by not attacking him directly, but by attacking his source of power which is separate from him? I can't remember anything Voldemort might own that would be considered a source of power to him, but it's an idea, anyway. Carol: Nagini, maybe? Too bad no one killed her when LV was living off her milk! And of course, there's his particular wand, very powerful according to Ollivander, and exactly suited to him, being Phoenis feather and yew (both symbols of immortality). Imagine him with a wand suited, to, say, Luna Lovegood! But no wand and no Nagini is better. A chance for Harry to show his quality and somehow defeat Voldemort through mercy (which I prefer to love as the mysterious quality in the locked room) Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 21:39:01 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 21:39:01 -0000 Subject: Talking porttraits/photographs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104666 Meri wrote: > Well, you've hit on just one of the things that hopefully JKR will > explain in her HP encyclopedia that we all hope she will publish > after book 7. Anyway, I would assume that a witch or wizard would > have to sit for a portrait, and that some sort of spell would be > cast to transfer a semblance of the subject's personality to the > painting (see Mrs. Black in Order). If someone did a portrait of > Lilly and James now I don't think that Harry would be able to talk > to them, because there'd be no live subject to get the personailty > from. Photos on the other hand, are seemingly just moving, enchanted > pictures that are developed in a special potion to allow the > subjects to move. So presumably a Muggle roll of film developed in > the right potion would produce moving pictures as well. Though as > evidenced in both Order (when Percy walks out of the family photo) > and CoS (when Harry tries to escape the picture of him and Lockhart) > the subjects retain some rudimentary knowledge of their real person. > So, yes there are some inconsistencies. Anyway, just two knuts... Carol: Also Percy's girlfriend Penelope hides behind her frame when Ron spills water on the photograph and blotches her nose (PoA), and Dumbledore walks out of his chocolate frog card (SS/PS). The portraits in the chocolate frog cards may not be photographs (unless wizards had cameras in the days of Circe or even Merlin ;-) ), but the cards can't talk and they act more like photos than like painted portraits. Carol From lisa at faistudio.com Tue Jul 6 20:56:30 2004 From: lisa at faistudio.com (lisa graves) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 20:56:30 -0000 Subject: Galleons and Galleons o' fun. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104667 Anyone have any theories on how Lily & James made their money? I assume Sirius' wealth is family money- how else could he, and not Harry, afford a Firebolt. One other question- what's the deal with invisibility cloaks? I know they're expensive and supposedly rare--- but wouldn't you think that Luscious and the other scumbags, I mean, deatheaters, would've got their hands on a few? Certainly would've made things a lot easier in the MoM when they tried to take the prophecy away from Harry. Lisa From dis_aliter_visum at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 21:22:10 2004 From: dis_aliter_visum at yahoo.com (Claire) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 14:22:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Harry and Hermione Foreshadowing in PoA movie? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040706212210.85995.qmail@web40911.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104668 > wrote: > > > As JKR says on her website: > > "'Does Hermione love Ron or Harry?' > > I can't believe that some of you haven't worked > this one out yet, > > but I'm not going to answer because that would > spoil the > > arguments, which I enjoy." > Anasazi wrote > If R/Hr is as obvious as getting hit in the head > with a brick, there > will be nothing to work out. Could it be that JKR is having some fun with her fans? It is clear in the books that Hermione *loves* them both. They are her best friends, and they have been through so much together. JKR may not be refering to a specific SHIP here. Claire __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mauranen at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 21:32:36 2004 From: mauranen at yahoo.com (jekatiska) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 21:32:36 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited--emotional maturity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104669 > SSSusan: > I think you're right, too, that we were/are INTENDED to think of > Sirius as one of the good guys. And because there were good aspects > to his character, I have continued to issue *tempered* or > *qualified* "defenses" of him. I think there were many good THINGS > about him, but the recent spate of posts pointing out his failings > have really made me reconsider the overall Sirius. Jekatiska says: Oh, come on. Sirius was a KID. Kids do stupid things. Kids do cruel things. They behave differently when adults are not there - so we can't be sure even of our own kids/siblings/ family members, as we will never know what they are like when we are not there. (My youngest brother who is sweet-tempered (quite unlike the rest of my family), considerate and kind, was recently punished at school for fighting, something I could never have imagined him to do.) And most kids fortunately grow out of it and become sensible adults. Some kids are more thoughtless than others, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they will become thoughtless or cruel adults. Harry as an orphan raised by a foster family that hates him, has had a difficult childhood and has had to *think* at an early age, something most kids in our comfortable western society don't have to do (even when they grow up...). Thus he is much more mature than his father and Sirius at the same age. Sirius was immature, cruel and self-centered, but then many kids from privileged backgrounds are. It does not make a person *bad* if they have done some cruel things when they were kids. We all have. (And anyone who claims they haven't, lives in denial.) No one is wholly good - or indeed wholly bad. I refer to the discussion about Harry's defeat of Voldemort by finding pity or forgiveness for him. I think Harry finding out that Sirius and James weren't perfect is build-up for his discovery that there may be something good, or at least pitiable in Voldemort. From plungy116 at aol.com Tue Jul 6 20:10:32 2004 From: plungy116 at aol.com (haraheart) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 20:10:32 -0000 Subject: Theory: Dumbledore to Teach Defence Against the Dark Arts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104670 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "peter838169" wrote: > I would like to make a speculation of my own and ask what people > think about Dumbledore taking the position of Defence Against the > Dark Arts teacher or possibly teaching a selected group of students. I have thought about this too, and most head teachers do seem to have a specialist subject and DADA would seem to be fitting for Dumbledore. Is it known if he does actually teach any subjects? Sarah x From ccahallebro at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 6 21:36:28 2004 From: ccahallebro at yahoo.co.uk (ccahallebro) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 21:36:28 -0000 Subject: Snape Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104671 Remember the scene in the 3 broomsticks. Prof. McGonagall tells Hagrid etc that Dumbledore 'had his spies' and that one of those spies warned the Potters that they were in danger. Now, based on the fact we know Snape informed on Voldemort for the Order, we know he was aggreived about James Potter saving his life and wanted to acquit himself of that reciprocal duty, we know Snape did some MAJOR service to the Order - major enough to convince everyone he was on the correct side - that spy was Snape. He tried to save the Potters from Voldemort, but couldnt. By this stage he clearly wasnt at the heart of the Death Eaters, because he didnt know that Pettigrew, not Sirius, was the leak. I suspect that Snape giving that information was the point at which he effectively broke his cover - Voldemort knows there is one he has 'lost forever' of his old servants (OotP)- why put it in the text if its not a named charachter, and the one person it applies to is Snape? Snape IS a good guy. He just isn't a NICE guy. From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Jul 6 21:59:08 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 21:59:08 -0000 Subject: Umbridge and Veritaserum In-Reply-To: <154.3932ecb3.2e1c23e3@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104672 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Madydea at a... wrote: Sonya: > IIRC at the end of OoTP DD is defending Snape to Harry and states something > like "It was Snape who gave Umbridge the fake Veritas Serum to use on you" (not > a direct quote I don't have the book). So I don't think she had the real > serum. I also think she DID use the entire vile on Harry's drink, she's a bit of > an extremist lol Geoff: Indeed, Umbridge's reaction suggests that she did use the whole vial of Veritaserum in the tea. '"Ah, Professor Snape," siad Umbridge, smiling widely and standing up again. "Yes, I would like another bottle of Veritaserum, as quick as you can, please." "You took my last bottle to interrogate Potter," he said, surveying her coolly through his greasy curtains of black hair. "Surely you did not use it all? I told you that three drops would be sufficient." ***Umbridge flushed.***' (OOTP "Out of the Fire" p.656 UK edition) Yes precious. That flush looks mighty suspicious....... And Dumbledore did reveal that Snape had cheated Umbridge. '"What about Snape?" Harry spat. "You're not talking about him, are you? When I told him Voldemort had Sirius, he just sneered at me as usual -" "Harry, you know that Professor Snape had no choice but to pretend not to take you seriously in front of Dolores Umbridge," said Dumbledore steadily, "but as I have explained, he informed the Order as soon as possible about what you had said. It was he who deduced where you had gone when you did not return from the Forest. It was he, too, who gave Professor Umbridge fake Veritaserum when she was attempting to force you to tell her Sirius's whereabouts."' (OOTP "The Lost Prophecy" p.734 UK edition) So certainly, canon shows that she was using the fake potion and implies that she used it all. From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 6 22:03:08 2004 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 22:03:08 +0000 Subject: The Hogwarts refreshment witch Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104673 > What about the lady with the >goodies trolley on the Express. She is definitely stated to be a >witch, so what is she doing pushing trollies around for a living? >Was she a Hogwarts drop-out or are only certain little wizards and >witches offered the chance of a first-rate magical education. And >what criteria do they use to choose them? It is my impression that the magical quill writes down the name of any child born with magical abilities within whatever geographical area Hogwarts covers. (I believe there's a geographical limit because we know there are other magical schools elsewhere, and because otherwise Hogwarts would have to serve the magical needs of the entire world, which seems unlikely.) However, re: the witch with the food trolley, first of all that is probably not her only employment since the Hogwarts Express, as far as we know, only runs twice a year. We have no idea what she may do the rest of the time. She could be *anything.* She could be the driver's wife. She could be a former Hogwarts professor who's retired but enjoys having occasional contact with students. She could be an employee of the Cauldron Cake manufacturers or some other of the confectioners mentioned. She could be (I don't believe this one, but I like it) a well-trained security witch who, if Lupin hadn't done it, would have come back down the aisle with motherly smiles and offers of chocolate after the Dementors searched the train -- and who will be a Great Big Surprise to the Death Eaters if they ever attack the train. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Check out the latest news, polls and tools in the MSN 2004 Election Guide! http://special.msn.com/msn/election2004.armx From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Jul 6 22:02:51 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 22:02:51 -0000 Subject: The FAQ says "Lily first" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104674 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, garyfredogal at h... wrote: > > Geoff: > > Yes but if you accept the above canon (PS "The Man with Two Faces" > > p.213 UK edition), you can't object to the Lily first theory. > > The "echoes" appear from the wand in the order, last first, Cedric > > being in that position. Therefore, as has been indicated, Lily must > > come out of the wand first because she died after James. garyfredogal: > No, I am objecting to the posts that say that Lily *died* first, not > that she came out of the wand first. Of course if she died before > James she would arrive before James. Geoff: Hang about, you're still not right unless you haven't expressed your thought clearly. If Lily died before James, James would emerge from the wand /first/. That doesn't seem to be the drift of your comment.... From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Tue Jul 6 22:10:32 2004 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 15:10:32 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Diary!Tom Not So Separate From Voldemort? In-Reply-To: <15.2d07531f.2e1c70b4@aol.com> References: <15.2d07531f.2e1c70b4@aol.com> Message-ID: <177241834.20040706151032@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104675 Tuesday, July 6, 2004, 2:16:36 PM, Lynx412 at AOL.com wrote: LAc> Possible, but what I saw it as was a new, young body for VaporMort. LAc> All his hard-learned knowledge and a new young form not recognizable as LAc> Voldemort would have made him much stronger...and, with his control of their Dark LAc> Marks he could have easily convinced his DEs of his true identity. I can certainly see V's motivation wanting a young, handsome body again and how advantageous it would be for him ("I've always been able to charm the people I needed"...) My only problem is, what would this do to all the physically disfiguring precautions he's taken since his school days to ensure that he'll "never" die? -- Dave From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 22:13:54 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 22:13:54 -0000 Subject: CoS and the HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104676 FrisbeeKwrote: > What if the HBP is one of the Malfoys? In particular Lucius > Malfoy. > > We know very little about the Malfoys other than they > are "purebloods" and descendents of Slytherin. What if they're not > all 'purebloods'? What if Lucius is like LV in that his mother was > a muggle? What if one of the reasons he is so ferverently in > support of LV's purebloods is because he's not one himself? > > Just a thought - haven't really worked the whole theory out. And > don't know that I'd be too excited about having another story with > Dobby who is sort of annoying; but he'd be the obvious connection to > a "prince". Carol: Narcissa is still on the Black family tapestry because she made a "respectable" pureblood marriage. JKR also talks about Draco as a pureblood on her website (the deleted conversation with another pureblood, Theo Nott). So I don't think the HBP is one of the Malfoys. I can just see them seething with jealousy, though, if the Prince is a living character and not the memory of Godric Gryffindor. Or how about the Slytherins as a unit seething over the revelation that GG was a halfblood prince and their founder was a pureblood commoner! Carol, who wonders whether the editors will supply the missing hyphen in "half blood." (I would! Politely queried, of course.) From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Tue Jul 6 22:16:57 2004 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 15:16:57 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Theory: Dumbledore to Teach Defence Against the Dark Arts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <654384163.20040706151657@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104677 Tuesday, July 6, 2004, 1:10:32 PM, haraheart wrote: h> Is it known if he does actually teach any subjects? Doesn't _CoS_ say he was Transfiguration Teacher in the Armando Dippet Era? -- Dave From jsummerill at summerillj.freeserve.co.uk Tue Jul 6 22:19:57 2004 From: jsummerill at summerillj.freeserve.co.uk (jotwo2003) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 22:19:57 -0000 Subject: If Mark Evans is nobody who is Megan Jones? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104678 I posted this ages ago but thoght it worth re-posting it after JKR confirmed that Mark Evans is not significant. "In chapter 3 of OOP the reader meets an Order member called Hestia Jones. To be honest, as she didn't have much of a part I'd forgotten all about her. Then I was looking at the screen caps of JKR's student list and I spotted Megan Jones. I then wondered if there was a connection. I thought I'd come up with a new theory. But then I checked Yahoo and fan fiction alley and spotted one post raising this possibility. (They suggested too that she could be the weakest link in the Order because she's underdeveloped and could have a bigger role later. Also it's suggested that she could be leant on to protect Megan.) But I don't think any link has been discussed much. It does seem that they could be related. Megan Jones is down as a half blood Hufflepuff. Hestia Jones, from her name, and the fact that she was laughing at a potato peeler, is presumably a pureblood. Perhaps she's Megan's mother. (BTW Hestia was the Greek goddess of the home and hearth. That makes her sound friendly and home-loving. It also made me wonder if she has something to do with the Floo network, but that might be too similar to Marietta's mother.) I'm sure that child readers and non-fan adult readers won't have paid much attention to Hestia Jones. I'm convinced that they don't know that a character called Megan Jones has been planned. Funnily enough, the possible Jones and Jones relationship made me wonder about Mark Evans. Most fans are speculating about if he's related to Lily or not. Perhaps he is a red herring after all. Maybe JKR wants Harry and the reader to think he's a relation, and then she will demonstrate that he is not. Then, if two characters with the same surname are mentioned in canon, the reader will go, huh, won't fall for that one again, and this time they will be related." Well, I was right that Mark Evans might not be important, although JKR was not being crafty. I wonder if Jones and Jones will turn out to be connected. JoTwo From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 22:24:39 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 22:24:39 -0000 Subject: James revisited. Was: Sirius revisited--emotional maturity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104679 > Jekatiska says: huge snip. I think Harry finding out that Sirius and James weren't perfect > is build-up for his discovery that there may be something good, or at least pitiable in > Voldemort. Alla: I LOVED how JKR painted James character. I loved that from the single scene he became more complex and interesting character than former "Saint". I was not at the smallest bit interested in James till OOP, I just did not care. I care very much now. I have no problem believing that he outgrew his bullying stage (that even without considering the assumption that there was a lot of "bad blood" between him/or Sirius and Snape). He after all did save Snape's life and he did married Lily and died like a hero and before you say that defying Voldemort does not equal good person, I would ask you whether Snape's coming back to Order equals him being a "moral or good person", because I think it does (Otherwise I have nothing to base his supposed goodness on. He certainly does not show much love to the people who surround him). Yes, Harry learned that his Dad was not perfect. Big deal. I am sure when he learns the complete history between Snape and Marauders, he will rethink his assesment (No, he will not think of James as saint again, but he will be proud of being his son again). Will Harry decide that Voldemort or Tom deserves his pity? I am afraid yes that that is where JKR is going. Alla From pcsgames at toltbbs.com Tue Jul 6 22:26:07 2004 From: pcsgames at toltbbs.com (Phil Vlasak) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 18:26:07 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Dark Lord In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20040706180819.03cc48f0@mail.toltbbs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104680 >mcdee1980 wrote: > >Has anyone else noticed that the Prophesies made by Trelawney use the >title "The Dark Lord" rather than Voldemort or He Who Must Not Be >Named? This struck me as both odd and alarming. Why would JKR >choose to have her revelations coming from someone who sounds like a >Death Eater instead of someone fighting against the "Dark Lord"? JKR >has stated that both she and Professor Trelawney worded the >Prophesies very carefully. A couple of out there questions come to >mind: snipped >2.) Is this the channeled spirit of a Death Eater? > > >Phil responds: It would probably be someone who died at the hands of LV, before James and Lily. Could it be Tom Riddle Senior? Harry's Grandfather? REGULUS BLACK? Smiles, Phil Pickle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jsummerill at summerillj.freeserve.co.uk Tue Jul 6 22:35:36 2004 From: jsummerill at summerillj.freeserve.co.uk (jotwo2003) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 22:35:36 -0000 Subject: JKR requested bat shot in PS/SS film was Re: JKR's input on film scene at GH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104681 Do either of these interviews confirm that JKR requested a shot of a bat be included, which is another rumour I've heard about the first film? I hope this isn't OT - bats get mentioned in canon in QTTA so I wondered if JKR is going to give them some significance. Plus there is the Batanimagus!Snape theory. JoTwo --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "carin_in_oh" wrote: > > Carolina: > > > > Look in the PS/DVD. There's an interview with Rowling where she talks > > about that scene. At least in the spanish edition. > > > > That's why I consider those few seconds canon (or very close to) and I > > find interesting the 'You heard James?' line combined with James > > specifically not appearing in the scene. > > Thanks! Since I posted my original query, I've discovered that JKR's authorship of that > scene was also mentioned by Chris Columbus in an October 10, 2001 interview with > Empire Online. The Columbus interview itself seems not to be archived, but reports of > the interview mention that the scene was from one of the discarded 1st chapter drafts > of PS/SS - which, in light of what she's now told us about the first chapter of HPB, is > even more interesting than it would otherwise be. I'd bet if she brought back a > snippet of the discarded chapter for the PS/SS film, there's a very good chance it's the > same discarded chapter she's planning to use in bk. 6. > > Carin From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Tue Jul 6 22:36:19 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 22:36:19 -0000 Subject: If Mark Evans is nobody who is Megan Jones? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104682 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jotwo2003" wrote: > I posted this ages ago but thoght it worth re-posting it after JKR > confirmed that Mark Evans is not significant. > > "In chapter 3 of OOP the reader meets an Order member called Hestia > Jones. To be honest, as she didn't have much of a part I'd forgotten > all about her. > > Then I was looking at the screen caps of JKR's student list and I > spotted Megan Jones. I then wondered if there was a connection. > > I thought I'd come up with a new theory. But then I checked Yahoo > and fan fiction alley and spotted one post raising this possibility. > (They suggested too that she could be the weakest link in the Order > because she's underdeveloped and could have a bigger role later. > Also it's suggested that she could be leant on to protect Megan.) > But I don't think any link has been discussed much. > > It does seem that they could be related. Megan Jones is down as a > half blood Hufflepuff. Hestia Jones, from her name, and the fact > that she was laughing at a potato peeler, is presumably a pureblood. > Perhaps she's Megan's mother. > > (BTW Hestia was the Greek goddess of the home and hearth. That makes > her sound friendly and home-loving. It also made me wonder if she > has something to do with the Floo network, but that might be too > similar to Marietta's mother.) > > I'm sure that child readers and non-fan adult readers won't have paid > much attention to Hestia Jones. I'm convinced that they don't know > that a character called Megan Jones has been planned. > > Funnily enough, the possible Jones and Jones relationship made me > wonder about Mark Evans. Most fans are speculating about if he's > related to Lily or not. Perhaps he is a red herring after all. > Maybe JKR wants Harry and the reader to think he's a relation, and > then she will demonstrate that he is not. Then, if two characters > with the same surname are mentioned in canon, the reader will go, > huh, won't fall for that one again, and this time they will be > related." > > Well, I was right that Mark Evans might not be important, although > JKR was not being crafty. I wonder if Jones and Jones will turn out > to be connected. >----------- Don't forget Gwenog Jones, the captain of the Holyhead Harpies and recently featured Witch of the Month on Jo's website. I also noted, that just like Hestia, Gwenog was depicted as black. Coicidence? Relation? Same last name, similar racial description... Arya From yutu75es at yahoo.es Tue Jul 6 22:40:18 2004 From: yutu75es at yahoo.es (fridwulfa hagrid) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 00:40:18 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron is the Half Blood Prince References: Message-ID: <00e801c463aa$39312a10$295b253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 104683 Pippin wrote: > > Could it be that the Weasleys, who have perhaps married > Muggleborns but not Muggles, are considered pure-blood as > most wizards think about these things, but are half-bloods in the > minds of fanatics like the Blacks? > > Links between the Weasleys and royalty abound--the Weasley > first names are all royal or Arthurian. Then there's the Weasley > is our King chant, Harry's dream of Ron and Hermione crowned, > Ron's prowess at the "royal game" (chess) , etc. > > Me (Fridwulfa): Well, we don't know what "the half blood prince" refers to. We all think it means not a pure blood, that is, someone who's not from a family of wizards on both sides. But maybe the "half blood" prince means that said prince is half Gryffindor, half Slytherin, or something like that. Just a thought. Cheers, Fridwulfa From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 22:44:06 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 22:44:06 -0000 Subject: Snape Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104684 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ccahallebro" > > Remember the scene in the 3 broomsticks. Prof. McGonagall tells > Hagrid etc that Dumbledore 'had his spies' and that one of those > spies warned the Potters that they were in danger. Now, based on the > fact we know Snape informed on Voldemort for the Order, we know he > was aggreived about James Potter saving his life and wanted to acquit > himself of that reciprocal duty, we know Snape did some MAJOR service > to the Order - major enough to convince everyone he was on the > correct side - that spy was Snape. He tried to save the Potters from > Voldemort, but couldnt. > > By this stage he clearly wasnt at the heart of the Death Eaters, > because he didnt know that Pettigrew, not Sirius, was the leak. I > suspect that Snape giving that information was the point at which he > effectively broke his cover - Voldemort knows there is one he > has 'lost forever' of his old servants (OotP)- why put it in the text > if its not a named charachter, and the one person it applies to is > Snape? > Alla: Respectfully, we don't know ANY of that. We speculate about that, yes, but we don't know any of that. Snape tried to save Potters? Very possible, especially based on his half-crasy rant to Harry in PoA that Harry is just like his father, does not listen to warnings, just as arrogant, etc.,.etc. But, we don't know that yet. (For the record, I believe that this is the case, but I refuse to acquit Snape based on circumstantial evidence . :)) Snape was a spy, sure, but in that very place of PoA, Fudge says that Dumbledore had many spies (sorry, don't have a book with me, therefore paraphrasing), so it could have been a different person. Dumbledore believes Snape because he according to JKR told him his story adn Dumbledore believed it. It does not necessarily equal "major service for the Order". Although based on "great personal risk" I am inclined to believe that one too. We also don't know that at the time Potters were killed Snape was not at the Heart of the Deatheaters. I really want to believe that he sincerely believed that Sirius was a murderer, when he was going crasy at PoA, but we don't know that either. Snape could have as well know that Pettigrew was alive and keep it to himself for whatever reason. wrote: > Snape IS a good guy. He just isn't a NICE guy. Alla: OK, people insist that "good" and " nice" somehow have to be the opposite definitions. Why? So, the person who treats others with kindness is a bad person? I believe that such person falls under the definition of "good" much better than Snape. Please don't argue the Fake!Moody example. He was just pretending to be nice, he was not really. If we learn that Snape just pretends to be vicious, revengeful and cruel to his students (OK, to Harry and Neville), that will be a different story. From yutu75es at yahoo.es Tue Jul 6 22:50:06 2004 From: yutu75es at yahoo.es (fridwulfa hagrid) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 00:50:06 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Moody vs Moody References: Message-ID: <012f01c463ab$986dd9f0$295b253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 104685 > Cathy Drolet wrote: > > I have wondered, for some time, why FakeMoody spend so much time > teaching the Unforgivable Curses. > Me (Fridwulfa): Because Dumbledore asked him to. He must have decided it was about time to teach Harry some proper DADA. Fake Moody explains it himself: Yeah, I'm staying just the one year. Special favor to Dumbledore. . . . One year, and then back to my quiet retirement." He gave a harsh laugh, and then clapped his gnarled hands together. "So - straight into it. Curses. They come in many strengths and forms. Now, according to the Ministry of Magic, I'm supposed to teach you countercurses and leave it at that. I'm not supposed to show you what illegal Dark curses look like until you're in the sixth year. You're not supposed to be old enough to deal with it till then. But Professor Dumbledore's got a higher opinion of your nerves, he reckons you can cope, and I say, the sooner you know what you're up against, the better. Goblet of Fire. Chapter 14. The unforgivable Curses. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mnaperrone at aol.com Tue Jul 6 22:53:12 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 22:53:12 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited--emotional maturity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104686 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jekatiska" wrote: > > SSSusan: > > I think you're right, too, that we were/are INTENDED to think of > > Sirius as one of the good guys. And because there were good aspects > > to his character, I have continued to issue *tempered* or > > *qualified* "defenses" of him. I think there were many good THINGS > > about him, but the recent spate of posts pointing out his failings > > have really made me reconsider the overall Sirius. > > Jekatiska says: > > Oh, come on. Sirius was a KID. Kids do stupid things. Kids do cruel things . . . . And most kids fortunately grow out of it and become sensible adults. > Some kids are more thoughtless than others, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they will > become thoughtless or cruel adults. Ally: Ah, but Sirius has his shortcomings as an adult, too, doesn't he? He says himself that you can tell a person by the way he behaves to those who are inferior to him and turns around and abuses his house elf. A cruel thing. He allows Snape's head to bang around when transporting him - a petty thing. Even as an adult, he makes no apologies for the "prank" despite the fact that it endangered Snape and Remus, another petty thing. He breaks the rules re: Grimmauld Place on a number of occasions - an arrogant and reckless thing. What Sirius has going for him is his love and devotion to Harry and James, but outside of that, I think he's more than a little boorish. He doesn't seem to have a lot of remorse for things he's done wrong, and doesn't seem to care much about the possible implications of his impetuousness. Despite having broken ties with his reputable pureblood family, he still seems like quite the elitist to me in OOTP. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 23:01:41 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 23:01:41 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_How_Rare_are_Muggle-borns=3F_and_Analysis_of_=93Purity=94_in_the_Order?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104687 I apologize if this has been discussed before, > but it seems to me that we have seen very few purely Muggle-born > wizards throughout the books. I believe the only ones we can be sure of are Hermione and Moaning Myrtle; is it likely that all of the > students attacked in CoS were Muggle-born? Here are the attacks: Carol responds: IIRC it's clearly stated that all of the petrified students (as opposed to the kidnapped, possessed, and nearly murdered Ginny) were Muggleborns. That was the point of the attacks. karenoc1 wrote: This brings me to an analysis of the original Order of the Phoenix; > how many were purebloods and why? > > Marlene McKinnon ? don't know. (Still alive at conclusion of > OoP) Carol responds: IIRC, the McKinnons were killed by a DE named Travers as reported by Karkaroff in the Pensieve scene in GoF. Marlene is not among the advance guard in OoP. I don't remember exactly what Mad-Eye says about her in the discussion of the Order photo in OoP, but I think he states that she's dead. If I'm wrong, please correct me. (Sorry to change the focus of your post--I'm more interested in whether they're alive than whether they're purebloods.) > karenoc1 wrote: > Remus Lupin ? probably pureblood? Half-breed? (Still alive at > conclusion of OoP) Carol responds: JKR said in her most recent chat that he's a half blood, so one of his parents was either a Muggle or a Muggleborn. Given that he was bitten by a werewolf at an early age and clearly lived in the WW, I'm betting a Muggleborn parent (a parallel with Harry). karenoc1 wrote: Sturgis Podmore ? don't know. (Dead at conclusion of OoP) Carol responds: Sturgis isn't dead. He's due to be released from Azkaban at about the time Book 6 begins. Interesting note: Someone mentioned his age (38 at the end of OoP?) so he's close in age to the Marauders. Maybe he and Lupin will reminisce together about Sirius, James, and Lily? Maybe even about Severus, if he's not present. ;-) Caradoc Dearborn ? don't know. (Possibly dead prior to PS/SS > ? body never found) Carol responds: Enticing little tidbit, isn't it? I hope this particular loose end is cleared up because I want to find out how he could just disappear. I just wish his name didn't remind me of Meriadoc Brandybuck every time I read it. karenoc1 wrote: Elphias Doge ? don't know. (Memory block here; is he still alive at end of OoP?) Carol responds: He's one of the Advance guard in OoP and since we aren't told of his death or capture in that book, I think we can safely assume he's still alive. karenoc1 wrote: > Dean Thomas ? Halfblood (Gryffindor). Carol responds: I know that JKR presents him as a half-blood in the unpublished backstory on her site, but in the books he's presented as a Muggle-born. That may be his own mistaken view or JKR may have simply abandoned that plot thread. Dean *thinks* he's a Muggle-born and his family are definitely Muggles, including the father or stepfather. karenoc1 wrote: > Lavender Brown ? don't know (Gryffindor) Carol responds: I think Lavender is a Muggleborn. She has a pencil case, keeps a rabbit as a pet, and doesn't know what a Grim is. Sounds like a Muggle background to me. (Not proof, I know.) karenoc1 wrote: > Justin Finch-Fletchley ? probably Muggle-born (Hufflepuff) Carol responds: Justin, who almost went to Eton, is definitely a Muggle-born, which is why he felt so threatened by Harry (the suspected Heir of Slytherin who could speak Parseltongue) in CoS. Carol, who apologizes for not quoting canon here but will never get caught up on posting if she looks everything up From mnaperrone at aol.com Tue Jul 6 23:05:27 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 23:05:27 -0000 Subject: Return from the Underworld in Greek Mythology (Re: Sirius Black Poll) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104688 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sp. sot." > > Well, first they both are trapped in a place with no obvious > escape, Sirius in a office high in a tower and Gandalf high on the > tower of Isengard. They both escape with the help of a flying > creature, Sirius with buckbeak, Gandalf with an eagle. And they both > seem to die, well at least Gandalf when everything seem to be over, > Sirius when Dumbledore appears and everyone else stopped fighting > and Gandalf when the Balrock had fallen in the abyss. I wonder if > Sirius will follow the same course. I actually think it would be > very exiting I would be glad to discuss it. > > > GEO: Your analogy is pretty flawed I think. Unlike Sirius, Gandalf > was the equivalent of an angel/minor god or spirit in Tolkien's > cosmology and he couldn't exactly die in the same sense that humans > could die and furthermore he was sent back after he died by the God > of Tolkien's universe while in comparison such a force doesn't > appeart to be active in Rowling's universe. Ally: I think Sirius is definitely dead and won't be back in any corporeal sense. But that doesn't mean we won't see him again. In Greek Mythology, the faithful dog Sirius appears by his master's side in the heavens (both as constellations) after his master is killed. I think Harry may still see Sirius - maybe in the mirror he gave him or in some other magical device. Perhaps he will see Sirius with his parents somewhere? I think Sirius will be seen again, just as Harry saw his parents in the Mirror of Eristed and from V's wand, just not in any living form he can really interact with. Otherwise, there would be little impact from his death. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 6 23:05:12 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 23:05:12 -0000 Subject: Galleons and Galleons o' fun. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104689 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lisa graves" wrote: > Anyone have any theories on how Lily & James made their > money? I assume Sirius' wealth is family money- how else could > he, and not Harry, afford a Firebolt. SSSusan: Sure, I have an idea. James was a descendant of Godric Gryffindor...by way of Bowman Wright, inventor of the Golden Snitch (& resident of Godric's Hollow). If GG didn't have lots of wealth already, I'd wager a bet that Wright would've earned a ton of moolah from the Snitch. :-) Lisa: > One other question- what's the deal with invisibility cloaks? I > know they're expensive and supposedly rare--- but wouldn't you > think that Luscious and the other scumbags, I mean, > deatheaters, would've got their hands on a few? SSSusan: Tee hee. Forgive me for giggling, but I love the typo here-- Luscious for Lucius. Lots of women seem to think that Lucius [at least as portrayed by Jason Isaacs in the movies] is quite luscious. :-) Siriusly Snapey Susan From yutu75es at yahoo.es Tue Jul 6 23:05:27 2004 From: yutu75es at yahoo.es (fridwulfa hagrid) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 01:05:27 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ginny's death would have strengthened LV because... References: Message-ID: <01a101c463ad$bccf22c0$295b253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 104690 Carin wrote: > Another way to read JKR's answer about what would have happened if > Ginny had died in the COS: What if Ginny turns out to be crucial to > the defeat of LV? Her death would thus have eliminated what will turn > out to be a powerful opponent to LV. > Me (Fridwulfa): That's exactly what I think. Ginny is going to be a pivotal character. The twins say that she's powerful. Quoting: "Yeah, size is no guarantee of power', said George. 'Look at Ginny'. 'What do you mean?' said Harry. 'You've never been on the receiving end of one of her Bat-Bogey Hexes, have you?' OotP. Chapter 6. So, Ginny seems to be a powerful witch and she owes her life to Harry after CoS. I think this debt will be very, very important in the end. Cheers, Fridwulfa From mnaperrone at aol.com Tue Jul 6 23:10:06 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 23:10:06 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry and Hermione Foreshadowing in PoA movie? In-Reply-To: <20040706212210.85995.qmail@web40911.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104691 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Claire wrote: > > wrote: > > > > > As JKR says on her website: > > > "'Does Hermione love Ron or Harry?' > > > I can't believe that some of you haven't worked > > this one out yet, > > > but I'm not going to answer because that would > > spoil the > > > arguments, which I enjoy." > > > Anasazi wrote > > If R/Hr is as obvious as getting hit in the head > > with a brick, there > > will be nothing to work out. Claire wrote: > Could it be that JKR is having some fun with her fans? > It is clear in the books that Hermione *loves* them > both. They are her best friends, and they have been > through so much together. JKR may not be refering to > a specific SHIP here. > Ally: I wouldn't be surprised by this at all. And really, while this is a fantasy and fiction and all that, it's a bit fanficy to have R/Hr or H/Hr meet in school and end up with 10 kids together in an epilogue. Granted, James and Lily met in school, but in my mind, it would be bad if Hermione "ended up with" either one of them. I hope they all go their own way when it's over. From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue Jul 6 23:10:55 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 23:10:55 -0000 Subject: Theory: Dumbledore to Teach Defence Against the Dark Arts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104692 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "haraheart" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "peter838169" > wrote: > > > I would like to make a speculation of my own and ask what people > > think about Dumbledore taking the position of Defence Against the > > Dark Arts teacher or possibly teaching a selected group of > students. > > I have thought about this too, and most head teachers do seem to have > a specialist subject and DADA would seem to be fitting for > Dumbledore. Is it known if he does actually teach any subjects? > Sarah x Valky: I have believed for quite sometime that DD will take the DADA position in book six. For two reasons, 1 Through the previous books the students of Hogwarts have been taught a strange curriculum for the Defense against the Dark Arts subject. From Quirrel whose teaching was I expect fairly standard to Lockhart who could have taught barely a thing, followed by Lupin who taught the students brilliantly, then Fake Moody who taught it seems with an intention to prepare the students that might for them to be of future service to the reign of Voldemort, Umbridge who manically supressed the will of the students and of course last but not least Harry who in defiance of Umbridge unleashed the will of the students in his keep. To me this concocts a very very dangerous mix of lessons, taking the students in a particular order from understanding to complacency then to competence to treachery and on to the battle within themselves of their own will. It is this battle the students now face of their own will that leads me to believe that the only important thing to teach now in the arena of Dark Arts for the students is the value of choice. Much to the bitter disappointment of Severus Snape I believe that Dumbledore will once again superintend him and take the DADA job for himself. Put simply there is no-one worse to instruct the children a manner in which to think through their choices than Snape. Snape will get the DADA job in book 7, I also believe BTW. 2. Fawkes will feature. I have a strong inkling that The Order Of The Phoenix has more meaning to it than is first apparent. The phrase has much ambiguity and I believe that apart from meaning Order in the sense of an organisation there is further meaning to the word in the sense of sequence, much highlighted in the books by JKR's *deliberate* errors. The Order of the Phoenix in terms of sequence is like the Snake swallowing its Tail, but in a sense also the opposite. The end is the beginning. Its a little confusing a concept but suffice to say that they are the same in that they symbolise immortality but are opposite in the nature of their symbolism. Harry and Voldemort are in many ways represented by the Snake and the Phoenix, and much speculations here lately hinges on this analogy. I concur that Harry is the Phoenix and Voldemort is the snake and I am sure Dumbledore will bring Fawkes to a DADA lesson in order to instruct the students in the *Order* of the Phoenix. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 23:18:14 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 23:18:14 -0000 Subject: 24 hours again In-Reply-To: <000401c46062$a9982b00$184a6d51@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104693 Ffred wrote: > Why, first of all, did Dumbledore do Sybil's job interview in the Hog's Head? He admits that it was a known haunt of dodgy characters which, in the circumstances of the time, would have made going there on the unwise side. Did he do it as a subtle insult to Sybil, whose qualities he admits he didn't value until she started prophesying? Seems a bit extreme. > Would he have _really_ done a job interview in the public bar? Carol: Since the Hog's Head is an inn as well as a bar, Sybil was probably staying there. Presumably the interview was in a semi-private parlor similar to the one where Fudge has tea with Harry in PoA. DD says they were in an upstairs room, not down in the public bar. As for how an eavesdropper could hear them, the door must have been left open or perhaps he was listening through a keyhole. Alternatively, when Trelawney's voice was raised, the eavesdropper may have run from another room to hear what was going on and been kicked out for prying/spying on other patrons. I don't think it was Dumbledore himself who threw the eavesdropper out since he seems to have heard the entire Prophecy. It must have been Aberforth who caught him and told Albus what happened later. (I won't get into the identity of the eavesdropper since that's one of the most vexing loose ends in the whole series.) Carol From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue Jul 6 23:35:41 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 23:35:41 -0000 Subject: Pity Voldemort (wasJames revisited. Was: Sirius revisited--emotional maturity) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104694 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > Jekatiska says: > > > > Alla: > I LOVED how JKR painted James character. > Yes, Harry learned that his Dad was not perfect. Big deal. I am sure when he learns the complete history between Snape and Marauders, he will rethink his assesment (No, he will not think of James as saint again, but he will be proud of being his son again). > > Valky: Just as an aside, I could not agree more. I was so very happy to finally see the human side of James. And despite his short comings I thought he was actually probably quite sweet and insecure. Now don't laugh :( ... many of the most arrogant and proud people in the world are only so because of their insecurities! (and I thought the embellished LE on his notepad was a sweet romantic touch to him that I refuse to overlook, I love a good romance!) Now the point of my post; > Alla : > Will Harry decide that Voldemort or Tom deserves his pity? I am > afraid yes that that is where JKR is going. > Valky: Again I agree with you to a degree only this time. I believe that Harry will pity Voldemort at some stage absolutely yes, but I don't agree that this will be his resolute opinion on the matter. In fact, I think JKR will take it the further step from pity for Tom to another feeling. A feeling of unconditional love. More than pity him I see JKR finding a way to show that Harry unconditionally forgives Tom for Voldemort and decides in himself that he can show Love to Tom. *shrugs* I Don't know how, I have faith in Jo's genius, though. He will do it not only because noone ever really has, but for more reason than that. *again shrugging* I don't know why. I HAVE to leave that one to JKR. From lziner at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 23:37:12 2004 From: lziner at yahoo.com (lziner) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 23:37:12 -0000 Subject: HBP Not Mark Evans In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104695 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Berit wrote: > The prince is of course... Mark Evans! It's just like > > Rowling to introduce a new, important character just in passing... > > > Sorry but according to JKR's official website Mark Evans is no body. You can find it under FAQ's Poll. JKR apologizes for using Evans as his last name. He is not a major character for either book 6 or 7. So we are still guessing. Check mugglenet or leaky for more details or check jkrowling.com From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 23:46:12 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 23:46:12 -0000 Subject: The Dursleys at Risk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104696 I (Carol) wrote: If the Dursley home were protected by a Fidelius Charm, nobody would be able to find it, not even Muggles like Aunt Marge, and the Weasleys could never have entered it through the fireplace. But how would Voldemort know about the Dursleys, who are Muggles, after all? ...edited.. I do think that the protective charm extends to the Dursleys --otherwise Petunia would never have taken Harry in--but they're not watched by the whole wizarding community, only by members of the Order and to some extent, the MoM, on the lookout for underage magic in Muggle communities (and particularly the house where Harry lives, or so it seems). asian_lovr2 (Steve) wrote: > > Carol, your slipping; must be old age creeping up on you. Carol: Oh, dear! Is it that obvious? Forgot to take my memory potion this morning--and found another grey hair, too. Steve: Voldemort > does know about the Dursleys. Carol: I *think* I meant at the time a Fidelius charm would have been placed--that is, when Harry was a baby. My idea, if I recall it correctly, was that the pre-Hogwarts Harry could hide in plain sight in Little Whinging. Voldemort, of course, would have been vaporized at that point, but the DEs would have had a hard time finding Harry, whereas if he'd been raised by a WW family, everyone would know where he was. I wasn't thinking of the resurrected Voldemort but of Dumbledore's reasons for placing Harry with the Dursleys in the first place. But of course that wouldn't be complete protection and certainly would not be incentive for Petunia to take Harry in, which brings us to the protective charm Dumbledore placed. (IIRC, he placed the charm on Harry, but maybe it extends to the Dursley home as well? Yes, I know. I need to reread OoP, but it's not my favorite book in the series.) Steve: And to address another issue raised by > someone else, Dumbledore did add the Protection of Blood, to the > protection that Harry already had from his mother's sacrifice. > Dumbledore performed additional spells to enhance the protection > Harry got from his mother. Carol: Right. We agree on this part. Lily's self-sacrifice (which I think involved a charm placed on Harry before Godric's Hollow) saved his life and caused the AK to be deflected onto Voldemort. That's separate from the additional charm(s) Dumbledore placed on Harry (and the Dursley home?) to protect him during his stay there. Dumbledore used the blood protection Lily had provided but extended it to cover him during the years between his parents' death and the ultimate confrontation with Voldemort, but especially, I think, the pre-Hogwarts period when he would have no direct contact with Harry. Carol, who would leave to search for her Remembrall but has to use the available time to catch up on posting From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 23:48:52 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 23:48:52 -0000 Subject: Fawkes - Wand Feather In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104697 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bwerschkun" wrote: > > > Barbara: > > ...edited... > > However, Voldemort's wand also contains one of Fawkes' feathers and > when he and Harry duel at the end of GoF, there is green light > emerging from Voldemort's wand, while red light is from Harry's... > Asian_lovr2: Wand light in this case is related to the curses each wizard cast. Voldemort cast the Death Curse which is always green. Harry cast the Disarming Curse which is always red. Note: the Stunning Curse is also red. >Barbara continues: > > I have always wondered about this: why does Voldemort have a wand > with a feather from Fawkes? I mean, "the wand choses the wizard" > and Fawkes is so closely related to Dumbledore and also appears to > have some special connection with Harry, not to mention how he > repeatedly comes to Harry's rescue against Voldemort - why would > Voldemort, the heir of Slytherin and deadly enemy of both Dumbledore > and Harry be chosen for a wand containing a part of Fawkes? Asian_lovr2: Those who have been here a while have heard me express this theory many times, ...and here it is again. A wand is not an intelligent being; it do not sing and dance, or walk and talk, nor do they make moral or intellectual judgements. When the wand chooses the wizard it does so from a magical perspective; the wizard and the wand have a magical commonality, a share magical resonance. That magical resonance is morally and intellectually neutral. Therefore the wand does not care what Voldemort's politics or moral views are. If they match, they match. If they share a magical harmonic resonance, then they share it and the wand is a match. Also, the wand chooses the wizard only in the sense that the wizard can NOT choose the wand. Because wand choice is not based on aesthetic appeal, intellectual analysis, or personal preference, there is nothing for the wizard to choose. When the wizard and wand match, it is, again, because the wizard and wand share a common magical harmonic resonance. > Barbara: > > What is the story with the name "Fawkes"? ... Many of you, who are < British, will know this much better, but as far as I know Guy Fawkes > was an English rebell ... and "Guy Fawkes Day" is still being > celebrated in England with bonfires .... Is that about right? So is > the name Fawkes, as a mere symbol of "fire", only referring to the > phoenix' ability to die and be reborn from flames? Or is there a > deeper meaning? ...edited.... > > Barbara Asian_lovr2: Of course, I can't state that my answer is right by any means, but my opinion is that the meaning is just the obvious and superficial meaning. We have a guy named Fawkes who burns in effigy and with a failed bomb attempt, and we have a bird who burn when it regenerates. They both burn, and that's as far as it goes. As far as the suggestion that Fawkes is ACTUALLY Godric Gryffindor, I think that's ridiculous and pointless. Do you know how long a 1,000 years is? Why would one of the greatest wizard be content to spend centuries sitting on a perch. What's the point of a /person/ being immortal if they are going to spend centuries sitting in a room taking a nap. Remember, that's just my opinion. As to the possibility that Fawkes could be Gordic's own Phoenix, that is much more possible. I have speculate in the past that, in a sense, the Heir of Gryffindor is the one who carries on the Gryffindor legacy, but not necessarily the Gryffindor blood line. And more importantly, it is Fawkes who determines who that legacy is passed to. At some point by joining Dumbledore, Fawkes selected Dumbledore as the Legacy Heir of Gryffindor. I also believe the when Dumbledore is gone, Fawkes will ally himself with Harry, thereby making Harry the Legacy Heir of Gryffindor. For what it's worth. Steve/asian_lovr2 From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 7 00:03:12 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 00:03:12 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited--emotional maturity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104698 SSSusan: > > I think you're right, too, that we were/are INTENDED to think of > > Sirius as one of the good guys. And because there were good > > aspects to his character, I have continued to issue *tempered* > > or *qualified* "defenses" of him. I think there were many good > > THINGS about him, but the recent spate of posts pointing out his > > failings have really made me reconsider the overall Sirius. Jekatiska says: > Oh, come on. Sirius was a KID. Kids do stupid things. Kids do > cruel things. They behave differently when adults are not there - > so we can't be sure even of our own kids/siblings/family members, > as we will never know what they are like when we are not there. SSSusan: Well, first off, "Oh, come on" is a phrase that makes me bristle. I respectfully say that I don't HAVE to "come on." Besides, my point about Sirius was twofold: 1) Harry and lots of other KIDS *don't* behave the way Sirius did; and 2) Sirius was STILL behaving in a reckless manner as an adult--thus, my inclusion of the goading-Harry- from-the-fireplace scene. Jekatiska said: > Harry as an orphan raised by a foster family that hates > him, has had a difficult childhood and has had to *think* at an > early age, something most kids in our comfortable western society > don't have to do (even when they grow up...). Thus he is much more > mature than his father and Sirius at the same age. SSSusan: But Sirius' homelife was awful enough that by the time he was 16 [IIRC] he had moved out and gone to live with James' family. In fact, his family was a bunch of racist fans of the Dark Arts. I'd say Sirius had to do nearly as much *serious thinking* about a sucky life as Harry did. Jekatiska said: > Sirius was immature, cruel and self-centered, but then many kids > from privileged backgrounds are. It does not make a person *bad* > if they have done some cruel things when they were kids. No one is > wholly good - or indeed wholly bad. SSSusan: And I think if you had left in a bit more of my post, you would have seen that my conclusion wasn't that Sirius was BAD. He wasn't absolutely GOOD either. He was a mixture of both elements. What I've been saying in a series of posts about Sirius is that I originally wrote him off as a fun-loving good guy, and all I'm saying now is that I've considered more of the canon evidence that has been put forth here recently, and I've decided calling him JUST a "fun-loving good guy" is now not something I'm willing to do. He did good things (like love Harry and go after Peter); he was fun- loving at times; other times he was a jerk and incredibly selfish. I "like" Snape, in the sense that he's fascinating and enigmatic and talented. I "like" Sirius for many reasons, too--in fact, I still find him vastly more "likeable" than Snape. But I don't find him wholly likeable, and I don't find his actions wholly excusable. 'Tis simply my opinion. Siriusly Snapey Susan From meriaugust at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 00:03:19 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 00:03:19 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 22 - St. Mungo's Hospital In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104699 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hebridean_black_dragn" wrote: > Questions: > > What are the implications of portrait people being able to move freely > within their own portraits? Can each person appear in only one at any > given time? In what other ways could this be useful to Harry, or the > Order; conversely, how could this prove dangerous? > Do the images in the chocolate frog cards have this ability as well? > Meri: There has been, as we all know, speculation about whether or not DD's request not to be removed from the chocolate frog cards means anything or not, but I would guess that there is only one actual figure of the wizard or witch, and that sole figure moves between cards and portraits. There are of course, serious implications to that. If a member of the LeStrange or Malfoy family should inherit No. 12 Grimmauld, then they'll have a window into DD's office. snip > Can Phineas, obviously a Slytherin and member of the Black family, be > trusted? Meri: I think so. Hey, maybe he's the good Slytherin that we've been waiting for all along! ;-) snip > How might Fred's comment to Sirius ("I don't see you risking your > neck!") have affected Sirius? Might this have contributed to Sirius' > attitude and actions later in the book? Meri: I hope none at all. DD says that Sirius is a grown man and too old for insults from an old school rival to bother him, so I would hope that a comment spoken in the heat of a family crisis by an seventeen year old boy would not have any bearing whatever. snip > Do the adults (and Moody in particular) really care about Harry as a > person, or do they mostly see him as a pawn in the fight against > Voldemort? > > To what degree is Harry receiving (or *not* receiving) support from > the adults in his life? Meri: To take on both these questions, I would say that Harry is not recieving much support at all from the grownups in his life, and that that lack of support and information and such was what drove Harry to be ever so angry at the begining of Order, not some raging teenage hormones. One of the reasons that DD wanted Harry raised away from the WW was so that Harry would become more than just the "one with the power..." and now that that he is his own man, the adults in his life must accept that he's not just passive. He's got to be active or he'll go crazy and take people with him. Although I think that the list of adults who truly care about Harry is fairly short: Mr and Mrs Weasley, DD, McGonogall, Sirius, Lupin, Hagrid. That's about all. Meri From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Wed Jul 7 00:11:03 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 00:11:03 -0000 Subject: The FAQ says "Lily first" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104700 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, garyfredogal at h... wrote: > > > Geoff: > > > Yes but if you accept the above canon (PS "The Man with Two > Faces" > > > p.213 UK edition), you can't object to the Lily first theory. > > > The "echoes" appear from the wand in the order, last first, > Cedric > > > being in that position. Therefore, as has been indicated, Lily > must > > > come out of the wand first because she died after James. > > garyfredogal: > > No, I am objecting to the posts that say that Lily *died* first, > not > > that she came out of the wand first. Of course if she died before > > James she would arrive before James. > > Geoff: > Hang about, you're still not right unless you haven't expressed your > thought clearly. If Lily died before James, James would emerge from > the wand /first/. That doesn't seem to be the drift of your > comment.... HA HA LOL !!!! JK would LOVE this ! See how hard it is to NOT make the mistake ! Laughing my butt off here!!!! Best to you All Valky From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 00:17:15 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 00:17:15 -0000 Subject: CoS clues to Books 6 & 7 analysis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104701 David wrote: I'm leaning to GG being the half blood prince, or prince of half bloods, and Harry is a blood relative. "erader45" responded: That sounds okay, but if GG is the prince of half-bloods, then why are all of the Weasleys (purebloods) and Hermione (muggleborn) in Gryffindor? Carol adds: I don't think GG is the prince of half bloods; IMO he is (or may be) a (the) half-blood prince. In other words, JKR should have included a hyphen and maybe her editor(s) will provide one. But as someone else said, it was Salazar Slytherin, not Godric Gryffindor, who was concerned about blood purity. A half-blood (unless he's Tom Riddle) would tend to have sympathies with both Muggleborns and purebloods (or rather with witches and wizards in general whether they were raised in the WW or the Muggle world)--much as Dumbledore does (which is why he's my other candidate for the title). Besides, if Hogwarts had one house for purebloods (Slytherin), one for half-bloods (Gryffindor), and one for Muggle-borns (Hufflepuff), where would Ravenclaw fit in? Would it take the not quite purebloods with a known but rather distant Muggle ancestor? What would happen to the preferred personality characteristics on which the sorting is supposedly based? Sorry, Sirius, but you're going into Slytherin whether you want to or not? And the Weasleys, too? Anyway, I think the ambition and cunning of many purebloods (Lucius Malfoy, for example) predispose them for Slytherin, partly because of "blood" (inherited traits) and partly because of upbringing. But I'm not sure that's true for any of the other houses. Courage (or rashness) is presumably equally common (or equally rare) among Muggleborns as purebloods. If you're a pureblood and your courage exceeds your cunning, you go to Gryffindor just as a half-blood or Muggleborn would. If your cunning and ambition exceed your courage, you go to Slytherin. Which brings me to Percy Weasley. Is he ambitious but not cunning? Does he have courage that we haven't yet seen? Did the Sorting Hat, which professes to have never been wrong, make a mistake in placing him? Anyway, Slytherin aside, I think that personality traits (and in rare cases, the student's own preference) are more important that blood in the sorting process, with one exception. I don't think the hat would sort a Muggleborn into Slytherin. That would be relegating a child to seven years of psychological torment. With regard to Harry as a descendant of Godric Gryffindor, I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case. It would be another parallel with Tom Riddle, the last descendant of Salazar Slytherin. But it's also possible that Dumbledore is the (spiritual if not blood) heir of Gryffindor--same values, same greatness. He was once Head of Gryffindor House and has a griffin-door knocker. As headmaster, he has the Sorting Hat (once Gryffindor's) but he also has Fawkes (scarlet and gold, the Gryffindor colors) and Godric Gryffindor's sword. I don't think the last two items necessarily go with the headmastership. I think they actually belong to Dumbledore himself. (If they belonged to the head of Gryffindor House, they would be in McGonagall's custody.) Carol, with apologies for rambling, but when I touch the keyboard, a dozen untamed thoughts come flying at me all demanding to be put on the screen regardless of their logical relationship to one another or the post I'm responding to. . . . From snow15145 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 00:24:42 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 00:24:42 -0000 Subject: JKR requested bat shot in PS/SS film was Re: JKR's input on film scene at GH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104702 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jotwo2003" wrote: > Do either of these interviews confirm that JKR requested a shot of a > bat be included, which is another rumour I've heard about the first > film? > > I hope this isn't OT - bats get mentioned in canon in QTTA so I > wondered if JKR is going to give them some significance. Plus there > is the Batanimagus!Snape theory. > > JoTwo > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "carin_in_oh" > wrote: > > > Carolina: > > > > > > Look in the PS/DVD. There's an interview with Rowling where she > talks > > > about that scene. At least in the spanish edition. > > > > > > That's why I consider those few seconds canon (or very close to) > and I > > > find interesting the 'You heard James?' line combined with James > > > specifically not appearing in the scene. > > > > Thanks! Since I posted my original query, I've discovered that > JKR's authorship of that > > scene was also mentioned by Chris Columbus in an October 10, 2001 > interview with > > Empire Online. The Columbus interview itself seems not to be > archived, but reports of > > the interview mention that the scene was from one of the discarded > 1st chapter drafts > > of PS/SS - which, in light of what she's now told us about the > first chapter of HPB, is > > even more interesting than it would otherwise be. I'd bet if she > brought back a > > snippet of the discarded chapter for the PS/SS film, there's a very > good chance it's the > > same discarded chapter she's planning to use in bk. 6. > > > > Carin Snow: I found part of the interview at: http://www.darkhorizons.com/2002/harry/potold2.htm - 14th October 2001 - Empire Online interviewed Director Chris Columbus yesterday who said that "[JK Rowling] did a little piece for us that wasn't in the first book but she had written it and she authorised it and it's in there and it's a little secret that you won't expect to see. It's in the first film because she originally wrote it for the first book and decided to take it out. So you'll see that when you see the film...one little sequence where we get a key into something that happened in Harry's past"... The only little thing, referencing Harry's past, that I found in the movie that wasn't in the book was where you see Hermione tell and show Harry that his father was a seeker. The seeker reference along with seeing James playing with the snitch in the pencieve scene has already been discussed and basically desided on that James fortune, along with the snitch/seeker reference, has lead many to the proposal that James is the heir of the originator of the snitch, FantasticBeastsAWTFT, Bowman Wright. From sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 00:37:38 2004 From: sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com (sevenhundredandthirteen) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 00:37:38 -0000 Subject: Half Blood or Part Blood (was: How Rare are Muggle-borns?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104703 karenoc1 wrote: > James Potter ? Pureblood. Harry is called a halfblood by > Dumbledore on p. 842 of Scholastic OoP, so James must have been a > pureblood--assuming Lily was Muggle-born. (Dead prior to PS/SS) I don't agree that just because Harry is a half blood, it means we can infere that James is a pure blood. I think half blood stands for 'part blood,' not 'exactly half- one pure blood parent and one muggle or muggle-born.' I only raise this possibility because we have never heard the terms `quarter blood' or `three quarter blood.' What would a child born to Harry Potter and Ginny Weasley be called? If Harry's half and Ginny is pure, would it be a three quarter blood? What would a child born to Harry Potter and Britney Spears be called? If Harry's half and Britney is a muggle, would it be a quarter blood? If such distinctions existed, I would expect that we would have encountered them by now. The very fact that we haven't suggests to me that you only count your immediate parents' blood, except on the occasion that one of them is muggle-born (the prejudiced exception to the rule). For instance, Seamus says he is half blood because his mother is a witch, and his Dad is a muggle. He doesn't say his mother is pure blood and his Dad's a muggle. He just says`witch.' Hagrid says `most wizards these days are half blood anyway' in CoS (Chapter 7 "Mudbloods and Murmurs"), and `yer don'have ter be pure blood ter do it' in GoF (Chapter 24 "Rita Skeeter's Scoop".) . Notice he counts *most* wizards as `half blood' not `half blood or less' like the movie. Maybe this proves that the wizarding world, like JKR, is awful at counting fractions and just uses `half blood' to stand for `part blood.' Anyone who is partwizard and part muggle/muggle-born counts as part. That would make the pure blood exceedingly rare, but it would also allow James Potter to be `part blood' (or half blood) and still have a part blood (half blood) son. In other words, I think Harry and Ginny's hypothetical child would be half blood and Harry and Britney's hypothetical child would be half blood. The fact that wizards count muggle-borns as `all muggle' when it comes to their offspring (That is, James and Lily's son is half, even though they are both wizards) is demonstrative of prejudice against muggles. In fact, the very fact that Lily's child can still only be `half' even though she is a witch proves that wizards have warped ways of calculating blood lineage- a child born to wizard and muggle is the same as one born to wizard and muggle-born. The question of what offspring of muggle-born wizards is an issue in itself. What would a child born to Hermione Granger and Prince William be called? Would it be a half blood? Or would it be a muggle-born, simply because Hermione is discriminated against? What would a child born to Hermione and Harry Potter be called? Is it half? We know a full blood and a muggle-born produce a half (Lily- James), but what about a half blood and a muggle-born? It can't be muggle-born, it's definitely not full, but if it was quarter, you'd think we'd have heard someone mention it as a possibility. The reason I'm bringing this up is simply because- I wonder whether just because Harry is half blood does that automatically make his father pure blood. The answer would obviously be `yes' if we had encountered quarter bloods and three quarter bloods and seven-eighths bloods and one-sixteenths bloods, or whatever. But because the wizarding world seems to be divided into full, half, or zero bloods, it seems to suggest more distant ancestors (grand parents and beyond) plays no part in determining `bloodiness,' as it were. That would make Harry and Hermione's hypothetical child a half- blood, even though Harry is not pure blood. Hermione and Prince Wills would be muggle-born. (Harsh, I know.) I think this idea *has* to be true- or else that means Hagrid, Lupin, Dean Thoms, Seamus Finnigan and "most wizards these days" all have one parent on the Black Family tree. This seems *very* unlikely. This opens up the door for more Half Blood Prince speculation, because it means the only characters who couldn't be considered half blood are those on the Black Family Tree who we are convinced don't have alternate parents. If you don't agree with what I've said, please give me some alternatives- What would you call Harry and Hermione's hypothetical child? Then there's the idea that maybe pure blood and full blood are not the same thing, but that's another post... ~<(Laurasia)>~ From aldhelm at earthlink.net Wed Jul 7 00:39:07 2004 From: aldhelm at earthlink.net (carin_in_oh) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 00:39:07 -0000 Subject: Harry and Achilles Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104704 Earlier today, I tagged a message with a throwaway line about comparing Harry to Achilles. Now, I have no theory about this, but I thought for fun I'd just line up a few Achilles factoids and see if anyone bites. The parallels are not complete, but some of them are suggestive. (Suggestive of what, I'm not sure!) Achilles was: - A descendent of Zeus on his father's side; a product of a mixed mortal/immortal marriage. - Educated, according to variant legends, either by a man named Phoenix or by the Centaur Chiron. - Rendered *almost* immortal by his mother: she held him by the heel and dipped him the Styx, the river of hell, which amounts to protection from death by immersion in death; but of course the un-wet heel left him with a crucial weak spot. - The subject of a double prophecy: that he would die at the gates of Troy, because of which his mother had the bright idea of hiding him away (disguised as a woman, incidentally) to keep him safe, and that he was the only one who could bring about the fall of Troy, because of which he was recalled by Odysseus to resume his true identity and join the war. - Prone to adolescent petulance, a.k.a. the famous Wrath of Achilles (although I wouldn't carry the comparison to Harry's otherwise sterling temperament any further). - Regarded by all as a warrior of superhuman power because of his apparent invincibility. Carin From melclaros at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 00:41:48 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 00:41:48 -0000 Subject: JKR requested bat shot in PS/SS film was Re: JKR's input on film scene at GH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104705 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jotwo2003" wrote: > Do either of these interviews confirm that JKR requested a shot of a > bat be included, which is another rumour I've heard about the first > film? Nothing about bats, that I'm sure. It was just a portion of an interview with either Columbus or Kloves discussing what JKR did and, perhaps more importantly, did not want shown in that 'bonus' scene. Mel From AllieS426 at aol.com Wed Jul 7 00:54:46 2004 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 00:54:46 -0000 Subject: Harry will die In-Reply-To: <20040703161217.27304.qmail@web90009.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104706 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sp. sot." wrote: > > Griffin782002: > <> > > Also, in the 19th century Arthur Conand Doyle, killed off Sherlock Holmes. Then, there was a public outrage and he was forced to bring him back. Imagine what will happen if J.K.R. decides to kill off Harry. > > "Griffin782002" If she was kidding around about going into hiding over a little thing like Mark Evans (per her website), imagine where she would have to hide if she killed off Harry!! Allie From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 00:55:28 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 00:55:28 -0000 Subject: The Dursleys at Risk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104707 Ali wrote: > I understand that her sister had been murdered. It's more than > possible that she lost her parents through murder. But was Petunia > similarly at risk? Lily appears only to have lost her life because > she tried to protect Harry. So why would Petunia feel at risk? > Perhaps it was simply paranoia, which I believe would have been > understandable, but is that really the reason? > > Or is it possible that she didn't feel at risk but she feared for > Dudley? perhaps there is something in the male blood line of the > Evans family which Voldemort was keen to stamp out? Perhaps there is > another prophesy relating to the Evans family, or perhaps Petunia > was aware of peculiarities about Dudley aka magical abilities which > she felt would endanger his life? > > Of course, having a magical son would force Petunia to face her own > feelings of jealousy and demons from her past. I think those would > be sufficient reasons to make Petunia take Harry in, but not > otherwise. Carol: Aside from the fact that we've been repeatedly told that all the Dursleys are Muggles, I don't think that Petunia is trying to stamp the magic out of Dudley. Consider first that the Dursleys fear *Harry* and try to stamp the magic out of him by depriving him of his fair share of food, clothing, and privileges. In contrast, they smother Dudley with affection (or at least Petunia does) and indulge his every whim. That IMO is not fear of magic but fear of loss of love--an all-too-common phenomenon in the late twentieth and early twenty-first century world. And note that Dudley was already a spoiled brat at sixteen months old--*before* his cousin Harry appeared on his parents' doorstep. I do think we need to consider Petunia's fears and resentments regarding the WW with regard to her treatment of Harry (she was determined to suppress her connection with her sister even before Godric's Hollow, but I don't think it has anything to do with Evans blood or the male line (after all, both she and Lily are female--the male line would relate to Mark Evans, if anyone). Also LV's determination to kill Harry relates to the Prophecy and not to his relationship to Lily. If he thought any sons born to her would be a danger to him, he'd have killed her immediately. Instead he tries to get her to move aside as if she were blocking his view. He doesn't even see her as important enough to kill (since she's not offering to duel with him); she's just an obstacle in his way. I do think that Lily and Petunia's parents were killed by DEs or, worse, attacked by Dementors (something drastic happened that Vernon doesn't know about), but I can't think of any reaoson why LV would want those particular Muggles killed. Maybe they were visiting the Potters (James's parents) and all four were killed together? That might explain why "that awful boy" was telling Petunia about Dementors. Carol, with apologies to the List Elves for having to catch up when she can From yutu75es at yahoo.es Wed Jul 7 01:26:27 2004 From: yutu75es at yahoo.es (fridwulfa hagrid) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 03:26:27 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR requested bat shot in PS/SS film was Re: JKR's input on film scene at GH References: Message-ID: <023501c463c1$9ee014e0$295b253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 104708 We know that the scene where we see Lily's being murdered, the flashback, contained, at first, the murder of James too. JK asked especifically that only Lily should be seen. That reinforced the idea that the male voice Harry hears when the dementors approach him "It's him, Lily, take Harry and run..." was not James's, that James was maybe already dead and there was a third person in the house. Snape and Lupin are the favourite theories. Cheers, Fridwulfa From greatelderone at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 01:41:52 2004 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 01:41:52 -0000 Subject: James revisited. Was: Sirius revisited--emotional maturity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104709 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > Will Harry decide that Voldemort or Tom deserves his pity? I am > afraid yes that that is where JKR is going. > > > Alla GEO: Doubt it. Right now Voldemort is just short from being pathetic with his attempt at working out his issues with his father by trying to purge the Wizard World of Muggle Influence and torturing while going for world domination under the guise of a silly nickname that only DnD players would use. From sweetface531 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 01:48:51 2004 From: sweetface531 at yahoo.com (Justine) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 01:48:51 -0000 Subject: Harry LIVES! (was: prophecy wording) In-Reply-To: <001a01c4634f$5c15df40$5562d1d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104710 Cathy: it sounds to me more than just residual pain from the other times the scar had hurt during that cemetery scene. Justine responds: I don't think it's residual pain, either. In my first post, I noted that "the strength of Voldemort's happiness when realizing (incorrectly) that Harry's touch will not kill him" would be extremely intense, and it is during those moments - of Voldemort's intense emotion - that Harry experiences excruciating pain from his scar. I wasn't very clear... sorry 'bout that. Justine From McGregorMax at ec.rr.com Wed Jul 7 01:51:17 2004 From: McGregorMax at ec.rr.com (mcmaxslb) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 01:51:17 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 22 - St. Mungo's Hospital In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104711 hebridean_black_dragn wrote:> > Do the adults (and Moody in > >>particular) really care about Harry as a person, or do they mostly > >>see him as a pawn in the fight against Voldemort? To what degree is > >Harry receiving (or *not* receiving) support from the adults in his life? > > Meri wrote: To take on both these questions, I would say that Harry is not > recieving much support at all from the grownups in his life, and > that that lack of support and information and such was what drove > Harry to be ever so angry at the begining of Order, not some raging > teenage hormones. One of the reasons that DD wanted Harry raised > away from the WW was so that Harry would become more than just > the "one with the power..." and now that that he is his own man, the > adults in his life must accept that he's not just passive. He's got > to be active or he'll go crazy and take people with him. Although I > think that the list of adults who truly care about Harry is fairly > short: Mr and Mrs Weasley, DD, McGonogall, Sirius, Lupin, Hagrid. > That's about all. One of the things that always bothered me about the HP series was the lack of support that Harry receives. It not so much the fact that he has been sent back to the Dursleys, but the fact that he is abandoned there is what gets me. And if the Order just leaves Harry at Privet Dr. to stew in grief and guilt, well JKR says that this summer will be Harry's shortest stay with the Dursleys that you wonder is they have to take him out because he hurts himself. McMax. From anita_hillin at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 01:51:49 2004 From: anita_hillin at yahoo.com (AnitaKH) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 18:51:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius revisited--emotional maturity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040707015149.62987.qmail@web42103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104712 cubfanbudwoman wrote: Jekatiska said: > Sirius was immature, cruel and self-centered, but then many kids from privileged backgrounds are. It does not make a person *bad* if they have done some cruel things when they were kids. No one is wholly good - or indeed wholly bad. SSSusan: And I think if you had left in a bit more of my post, you would have seen that my conclusion wasn't that Sirius was BAD. He wasn't absolutely GOOD either. He was a mixture of both elements. What I've been saying in a series of posts about Sirius is that I originally wrote him off as a fun-loving good guy, and all I'm saying now is that I've considered more of the canon evidence that has been put forth here recently, and I've decided calling him JUST a "fun-loving good guy" is now not something I'm willing to do. He did good things (like love Harry and go after Peter); he was fun-loving at times; other times he was a jerk and incredibly selfish. [Whole lotta snipping going on] akh: As I've doubtless stated before, one of the best features of JKR's writing for me is the emotional/psychological truth of the characters. In the case of Sirius, I've seen a million of 'em. Well, perhaps not quite that many, but as a former actress, his type is rife in the business. Sirius always stuck me as the good-looking, charistmatic type who had a difficult time as a child and who is devoted to friends and those he loves. However, he is also devoted to Self, so the feelings of others are not always apparent or, frankly, important to him. A very dear friend of mine (unfortunately deceased) WAS Sirius, in many ways. His parents, while not cruel, had a troubled relationship that he took personally. He could be the best friend you ever had, followed closely by an astoundingly cruel remark. My excuse for him was, "He doesn't mean to be a bastard..." and it was very apt. The point of this ramble is to say that Sirius is undoubtedly well-intentioned (much of GOF), sincerely attached to his loved ones (Shrieking Shack scene in POA and Christmas in OOTP)and has an easy time endearing himself to those whom he takes the trouble to charm. However, while not necessarily egotistical, he is self-absorbed, a trait which is frequently accompanied by a total lack of self-awareness. Since I have a passel of friends who fit this description, I like Sirius a lot! akh, who hopes her actor friends aren't on this list - then again, they'd never recognize themselves, would they? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Wed Jul 7 01:51:43 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 01:51:43 -0000 Subject: CoS clues to Books 6 & 7 analysis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104713 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: But it's also possible that Dumbledore is the (spiritual if not blood) heir of Gryffindor--same values, same greatness. He was once Head of Gryffindor House and has a griffin-door knocker. As headmaster, he has the Sorting Hat (once Gryffindor's) but he also has Fawkes (scarlet and gold, the Gryffindor colors) and Godric Gryffindor's sword. I don't think the last two items necessarily go with the headmastership. I think they actually belong to Dumbledore himself. (If they belonged to the head of Gryffindor House, they would be in McGonagall's custody.) > > Carol Indubitably Carol! More canon to support you: "By all means continue destroying *MY* possessions" said Dumbledore serenely "I daresay I have too many." OOtP, In the Headmasters office, ch 37 The Lost Prophecy, page 727 in my own copy. (emphasis on the word 'my' is mine) My possessions? I daresay I have too many? I am sure as a phoenix sings that this implies *most* of the artefacts and objects in the Headmasters office came with Dumbledore and are his personal belongings. This could include Godric Gryffindors sword among other things. Dumbledore....Gryffindor? hmm whats a Dumble? :P From mrsbonsai at charter.net Wed Jul 7 01:57:06 2004 From: mrsbonsai at charter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 01:57:06 -0000 Subject: Wands was:Re: CoS clues to Books 6 & 7 analysis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104714 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jimlaming" wrote: > smartone564 wrote: > Jim remembers: > IIRC during the duel in the graveyard, when Harry's and Voldie's wand > are having the Priori Incantatem effect, both James and Lily come out > of Voldie's wand. That wand was the wand that killed them. (With > Lily dead, even if there was a struggle, he has time to pick up his > own wand.) After Lily comes out of the wand, came the failed AK. > What does a failed AK look like? See the discussion back at #103409 > and several splinter threads around there. > > I believe it was Voldie's wand all along. > > Jim Laming >From what we've seen of wizard duels/fights recently, it has been shown that wands can be whipped out of other people's hands and then another grabbed. Just because Lily and James were killed with that wand, does NOT mean that it happened before the AK. If someone else were there to pick up Voldemort's wand, say, Pettigrew? . . . And finish off Lily. Perhaps Pettigrew does this just to finish covering his tracks. I suppose if Lily were unconcious and Voldemort in a hurry . . . I still see it as a possibility. Julie From ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 02:01:38 2004 From: ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com (A.J.) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 02:01:38 -0000 Subject: Galleons and Galleons o' fun. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104715 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lisa graves" wrote: > Anyone have any theories on how Lily & James made their > money? > > One other question- what's the deal with invisibility cloaks? I > know they're expensive and supposedly rare--- but wouldn't you > think that Luscious and the other scumbags, I mean, > deatheaters, would've got their hands on a few? James was of a well-off family, and we'll learn more about that-- so said JKR between GOF and OOTP (someone can point to that?) On the cloaks-- they come from demiguise hairs (see Fantastic Beasts book), and those creatures are so rare and hard to catch, that it explains why just having a lot of money can't necessarily buy one. James got his from his father, JKR said in the past. What I'm wondering is what happened to Moody's spare cloak that got lost in OOTP, and Barty Crouch Jr.'s? Who is lurking around invisible that we don't know about? A DE? Does not bode well... aj From mrsbonsai at charter.net Wed Jul 7 02:23:52 2004 From: mrsbonsai at charter.net (jastrangfeld) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 02:23:52 -0000 Subject: JKR requested bat shot in PS/SS film was Re: JKR's input on film scene at GH In-Reply-To: <023501c463c1$9ee014e0$295b253e@takun> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104717 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fridwulfa hagrid" wrote: > > We know that the scene where we see Lily's being murdered, the flashback, > contained, at first, the murder of James too. JK asked especifically that > only Lily should be seen. That reinforced the idea that the male voice Harry > hears when the dementors approach him "It's him, Lily, take Harry and > run..." was not James's, that James was maybe already dead and there was a > third person in the house. Snape and Lupin are the favourite theories. > Cheers, > Fridwulfa See now, I thought the only person who knew where they were was Pettigrew . . . . . And therefore I'll say it again. I think Pettigrew had more of a hand in it than has been said. The others knew where to go only after it had all occured . . . Julie From meriaugust at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 02:32:10 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 02:32:10 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 22 - St. Mungo's Hospital In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104718 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mcmaxslb" wrote: > One of the things that always bothered me about the HP series was the > lack of support that Harry receives. It not so much the fact that he > has been sent back to the Dursleys, but the fact that he is abandoned > there is what gets me. And if the Order just leaves Harry at Privet > Dr. to stew in grief and guilt, well JKR says that this summer will > be Harry's shortest stay with the Dursleys that you wonder is they > have to take him out because he hurts himself. McMax. Well, I don't know if he'll hurt himself. I don't think, despite Harry wanting to die and be with Sirius after watching his godfather's murder, that he is actually suicidal. I, perhaps being a little more optimistic than I should be, think that Harry will probably be taken from Privet Drive early (and for the last time, I don't think he'll be forced to go back once he's turned 17) because he'll be needed in the fight, as it were, or at least for his safety. Since the dementor attack in Order shows that other things can hurt Harry in Little Whinging, he is really vulnerable there, and with only Mrs. Figg to protect him he's gotta get out or someting bad's gonna happen. Anyway, yes, I agree that Harry gets litle or no help from the grownups, but to me the end of Order shows that he might not need it so much anymore. He's glad they're there with him, but he walks out to the Dursley's car alone, and he doesn't look back while his aunt and uncle catch up. He's the man now, and he knows it. Meri From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 02:34:46 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 02:34:46 -0000 Subject: Pity for Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104719 Alla wrote previously: > > Will Harry decide that Voldemort or Tom deserves his pity? I am > > afraid yes that that is where JKR is going. > > > > GEO: > Doubt it. Right now Voldemort is just short from being pathetic > with his attempt at working out his issues with his father by trying > to purge the Wizard World of Muggle Influence and torturing while > going for world domination under the guise of a silly nickname that > only DnD players would use. Alla: I don't want her to go there, but unfortunately I am the last person she would ask advice from. :o) But with her latest answers - "I don't believe that anybody is born evil, we will find out more about Tom, etc." (paraphrase) I am afraid that is exactly where she is going. Now, if she will make me pity Tom, I would think that she is not just a very good writer, I would think that she is a genius. I am wondering what would make me pity Tom. Because right now I cannot think of him as anybody else, but very pathetic maniacal murderer. I suppose I have to see him doing some good, noble deeds. Ha! No, talking more about his bad childhood is not enough for me. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 02:38:22 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 02:38:22 -0000 Subject: No Mark Evans (Was: Privet Drive / Ethical Legilimency /) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104720 Carol: I for one expect to see little Mark in the Sorting Hat scene in Book 6 and believe him to be a distant relation of Harry's (whom Dumbledore doesn't know about about because his parents are Muggles). "smartone" responded: I would just like to ask, why wouldnt Dumbledore know? He seems to know pretty much everything else. However, I must admit, you might be on to something here. Carol says: Hi. I just wrote you a very long post explaining how IMO Dumbledore is not omniscient and how he could be unaware of a ten-year-old Muggleborn in Harry's neighborhood, but when I checked my e-mail I found a message urging me to go to JKR's site and read the response to the FAQ Poll. What a crushing discovery! Mark Evans is nobody! My favorite non-Snape theory reduced to ashes! And I was so looking forward to "seeing" Harry and Mark staring open-mouthed at each other at the Sorting ceremony. I guess I'll hunt up Madam Pomfrey and see if she'll place a cheering charm on me. Carol, who will try to go back to lurking now and make the List Elves happy. (Maybe they'll pose for a photo in their tea towels and post it to the list. *That* would cheer me up.) From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jul 7 02:40:37 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 02:40:37 -0000 Subject: Snape Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104721 > Alla: > > OK, people insist that "good" and " nice" somehow have to be the > opposite definitions. Why? > > So, the person who treats others with kindness is a bad person? I > believe that such person falls under the definition of "good" much > better than Snape. > > > Please don't argue the Fake!Moody example. He was just pretending to > be nice, he was not really. If we learn that Snape just pretends to > be vicious, revengeful and cruel to his students (OK, to Harry and > Neville), that will be a different story. Potioncat: Well, you could just as easily say, "Snape isn't nice but he isn't bad either." And although I'm not the one who uses that line, (I do like it) to me it means he's on the right side and he's doing the right things, but he isn't a nice person. I recently saw a quote that was something like, "Snape manages to do the right thing while continuing to be obnoxious." The whole thing with Crouch!Moody is bothersome to me. This man really manipulated the kids. He was quite a con artist....in retrospect, who do you like better? Crouch!Moody or Snape? (Assuming those are the only two choices?) I don't think Snape is pretending. I think he is vicious. Potioncat From anita_hillin at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 02:52:40 2004 From: anita_hillin at yahoo.com (AnitaKH) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 19:52:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 22 - St. Mungo's Hospital In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040707025240.90986.qmail@web42101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104723 "mcmaxslb" wrote: [snip]...if the Order just leaves Harry at Privet Dr. to stew in grief and guilt, well JKR says that this summer will be Harry's shortest stay with the Dursleys that you wonder is they have to take him out because he hurts himself. McMax. meriaugust wrote: Well, I don't know if he'll hurt himself. I don't think, despite Harry wanting to die and be with Sirius after watching his godfather's murder, that he is actually suicidal. [snippin' like a barber] akh: meriaugst, you continued with exactly my thoughts when I read the original post. Harry is past the "most trying age," as Elizabeth Bennett says in P&P. As has been mentioned in other threads, his talk with Luna before the end of the term marked his change of attitude. The fact that he is accompanied by the Order on his trip to King's Cross says to me that they are paying close attention to him, and I feel he's likely to leave because he's either threatening the safety of the Dursleys by his presence in their house or needs to be at the Order headquarters to address some crisis. Frankly, he never struck me as a suicidal type (and as a former high school teacher, I've seen the suicidal type). akh, who never misses an opportunity to introduce Jane Austen into a discussion... --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jul 7 02:55:45 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 02:55:45 -0000 Subject: Snape Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104724 > Alla: > > Of course, if those are the only two choices, I will pick Snape, > although to tell you the truth I am still more impressed with Crouch! > Moody teaching skills than Snape's. Potioncat: Oh, absolutely. If teaching skills was the issue, Crouch!Moody would be the winner. But it really bothers me....he had the kids trusting him (even if a little afraid) enough to go through with the curses. I'd bet none of them would be too happy if Snape filled in for that class and pulled out a wand! Yet, I don't think Snape would allow harm to come to any of them....Unpleasant events, perhaps, but not harm. (One might say that in the classroom, C!M didn't allow harm either.) From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Wed Jul 7 02:59:02 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 02:59:02 -0000 Subject: JKR requested bat shot in PS/SS film... In-Reply-To: <023501c463c1$9ee014e0$295b253e@takun> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104725 "fridwulfa hagrid" wrote: > > We know that the scene where we see Lily's being murdered, the flashback, > contained, at first, the murder of James too. JK asked especifically that > only Lily should be seen. That reinforced the idea that the male voice Harry > hears when the dementors approach him "It's him, Lily, take Harry and > run..." was not James's, that James was maybe already dead and there was a > third person in the house. Snape and Lupin are the favourite theories. -------------- Here I go, debunking....counter my points if you can. :D Here's the thing--I don't see how that voice could have been Snape's or Lupin's of all the people (other than the most likely--that it is just simply James). See, in the book, Hary hears 'a new voice, a man's'. How could Harry not hear that voice and, if it was Lupin, not immediately recognize it as Lupin's when Lupin is then the very next person to talk to him?? And if it was Snape's, how could Harry, who's heard Snape yell more than almost anyone, not recignize the voice as the very distinctive voice of Snape's? And as for Wormtail or Sirius, if it had been either of them, I think *sometime* when Harry first heard either speak, he'd have had an odd thought that the voice was somehow familar. Plus, we have Voldemort, back in PS, telling Harry that 'I killed your father first and he put up a courageous fight'. Yes, yes, Voldemort is hardly the voice of truth, but I don't see how or why Voldemort would have lied here. Plus, there's the echo of James in the GoF duel and Harry again hears his father speak. Harry never had an odd thought that his father sounding different that he had the night he'd died. And Harry hears his father speak yet again--in direct comparison to the voices of Snape, Lupin, Wormtail, and Sirius in the OotP Penseive scene--and Harry again fails to have any strange recall of that voice not matching the voice he'd previously catalogued as his father's. That's three separate occassions where Harry has heard the voice of James--and, as he is the one who heard them, I think if Harry failed to notice a way that the voice in his Dementor-induced memories ill-fit the other two voice examples, then I say it was James. Harry may be thick at times but I have a feeling those three lone times he heard his father are quite burned vividly into his memory. I say James is James and James is dead. The reason, if it's true, that JKR didn't want James shown, could be as simple as James made some dying comment about something we couldn't yet know about--like the prophecy. Arya From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 03:01:39 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 03:01:39 -0000 Subject: Snape Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104726 > > Potioncat wrote: > Well, you could just as easily say, "Snape isn't nice but he isn't > bad either." And although I'm not the one who uses that line, (I do > like it) to me it means he's on the right side and he's doing the > right things, but he isn't a nice person. I recently saw a quote > that was something like, "Snape manages to do the right thing while > continuing to be obnoxious." Alla: But here is my problem then. Is what Snape doing enough to be considered a good person? I mean, yes, he is fighting against the Bad Guy. I don't think I can doubt his loyalty to the cause anymore, but does fighting against Evil automatically makes you good or is he just a bad guy, who is on the right side? Because see obnoxious, is way too nice a word to call what he does to Harry,IMO. That is of course only valid If you think that he is not pretending and truly hates Harry, which I tend to agree with at the moment. Potioncat: in > retrospect, who do you like better? Crouch!Moody or Snape? > (Assuming those are the only two choices?) > > I don't think Snape is pretending. I think he is vicious. > Potioncat Alla: From those two options, of course I choose Snape, but to tell you the truth, i am still more impressed with crouch!Moody teaching methods than I was with Snape. From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 03:05:21 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 03:05:21 -0000 Subject: The Prophecy: Harry's interpretation and reaction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104727 Demetra: I agree with you, Jen. I know many people have posted that they think that Harry will be even more angry in Book 6, but I disagree. I think that the conversation with Luna was the turning point for Harry... vmonte responds: I really like Luna's conversation with Harry at the end of OOTP. She says a lot. p863, U.S. version: "They'll come back, they always do in the end. It was just that I wanted to pack tonight. Anyway...why aren't you at the feast?" Harry shrugged. "Just didn't feel like it." "No," said Luna, observing him with those oddly misty, protuberant eyes. "I don't suppose you do. That man the Death Eaters killed was your godfather, wasn't he? Ginny told me." Harry nodded curtly, but found that for some reason he did not mind Luna talking about Sirius. He had just remembered that she too could see thestrals. "Have you..." he began. "I mean, who...has anyone you've known ever died? "Yes," said Luna simply, "my mother. She was a quite extraordinary witch, you know, but she did like to experiment and one of her spells went rather badly wrong one day. I was nine." "I'm sorry," Harry mumbled. "Yes, it was rather horrible," said Luna conversationally, "I still feel very sad about it sometimes. But I've still got Dad. And anyway, it's not as though I'll never see Mum again, is it?" "Er--isn't it?" said Harry uncertainly. She shook her head in disbelief. "Oh, come on. You heard them, just behind the veil, didn't you?" "You mean..." "In that room with the archway. They were just lurking out of sight, that's all. You heard them." Luna seems to be a very spiritually oriented person--and Harry really needs a friend like her. There are going to be more deaths in book 6/7 and a little spirituality can go a long way to ease the pain. Luna's dialog is a metaphor for how Harry is always losing the people he loves. Telling Harry that he will someday see Sirius again was the right thing for her to say to make Harry feel better. She is very intuitive don't you think? Luna makes Harry feel better because she reminds him that if he is patient he will one day recover all of his lost possessions (loved ones). vivian From ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 03:16:41 2004 From: ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com (A.J.) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 03:16:41 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry and Hermione Foreshadowing in PoA movie? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104728 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mayeaux45" wrote: > A.J. I can definitely understand why you and many others would > believe that all (or if not most) of the evidence in the books to be > pointing towards R/Hr. ...why make it so blatantly obvious > from as early as book 3 and movies 2 & 3 that it's going to be a Ron > and Hermione ending? Well... I again (reminder to this list) quote what John Granger pointed out in _The Hidden Key to Harry Potter_-- in alchemy, sulfur and mercury were known as 'the quarreling couple!' >:D and JKR sure knows her alchemy tradition. (Hermione=quicksilver, fem. of Hermes; sulfur is red/hot (tempered)-- together they help mold and purify the journeying ...base metal on its route to become the philosopher's stone, etc., or so forth...) (Aside from my instinctive, always-held normal reactions (seeing R/Hr as GOF was the first book I read), the movies, or JKR's saying hasn't she given us enough clues already. That sort of stuff, people post all the time!) From ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 03:20:45 2004 From: ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com (A.J.) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 03:20:45 -0000 Subject: The Prophecy: Harry's interpretation and reaction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104729 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > Demetra: > I agree with you, Jen. I know many people have posted that they > think that Harry will be even more angry in Book 6, but I disagree. > I think that the conversation with Luna was the turning point for > Harry... > > vmonte responds: > > I really like Luna's conversation with Harry at the end of OOTP. She > says a lot. Yes-- John Granger wondered if there is any alchemy symbolism in this, if Luna (another 'purity' name like Lily) were here the 'moist' element to 'quench' the 'dry, hot' Harry in this stage (#5) of the process. (He just mentioned it, did not say it was written in stone, but it makes sense to me.) --A.J. From chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 03:30:37 2004 From: chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com (alora) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 03:30:37 -0000 Subject: Luna is very strange, was The Prophecy: Harry's interpretation and reaction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104730 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > Demetra: > I agree with you, Jen. I know many people have posted that they > think that Harry will be even more angry in Book 6, but I disagree. > I think that the conversation with Luna was the turning point for > Harry... > > vmonte responds: > > I really like Luna's conversation with Harry at the end of OOTP. She > says a lot. > Luna seems to be a very spiritually oriented person--and Harry really > needs a friend like her. There are going to be more deaths in book > 6/7 and a little spirituality can go a long way to ease the pain. > Luna's dialog is a metaphor for how Harry is always losing the people > he loves. Telling Harry that he will someday see Sirius again was the > right thing for her to say to make Harry feel better. She is very > intuitive don't you think? > > Luna makes Harry feel better because she reminds him that if he is > patient he will one day recover all of his lost possessions (loved > ones). I do like Luna, and I, too, think she has a very spiritual take on things. But, why is her character so....odd? I don't get why she has to be someone that people giggle at or make fun of. I mean, JKR could have done that same thing with the character without making her look like a fool that believes crazy things. All I know is that I will go mad if she and Harry end up together. Not that Harry needs to end up with any girl, but NOT THAT ONE. Alora :) From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 03:36:25 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 03:36:25 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104731 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pandrea100" wrote: > > > Potioncat (with regard to Albus Percival Wolfric Brian > Dumbledore): > > > I just happened to wonder, is there a reason a person would have > 4 > > > given names? > > I think it's just for comic effect ... all those grand names and > then 'Brian'! > > However I did wonder whether Percy Weasley was named after him - the > Weasleys are reasonably good friends with Dumbledore, after all. > > Pandrea For what it's worth, we learn in OoP that Percy is Percy Ignatius Weasley, so Percy isn't short for Percival. The names have separate histories and derivations (though admittedly the Weasleys might not know that). Carol From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Jul 7 03:48:56 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 03:48:56 -0000 Subject: The Prophecy: Harry's interpretation and reaction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104732 Vivian: > Luna seems to be a very spiritually oriented person--and Harry really > needs a friend like her. There are going to be more deaths in book > 6/7 and a little spirituality can go a long way to ease the pain. > Luna's dialog is a metaphor for how Harry is always losing the people > he loves. Telling Harry that he will someday see Sirius again was the > right thing for her to say to make Harry feel better. She is very > intuitive don't you think? > > Luna makes Harry feel better because she reminds him that if he is > patient he will one day recover all of his lost possessions (loved > ones). Jen: Wow--I was just really struck by this metaphor, Vivian. That is a sad and sweet thought about Harry. Luna *is* very intuitive, and seems amazingly immune to input from others. This was her strength in OOTP, but I worry it will get her into trouble later. Luna definitely represents Intuition, and acts as a counterbalance to Hermione's Intellect. Hermione depends on critical feedback to help Harry see his mistakes and think through actions, but Luna's way seems just as effective, in a different way. Wonder how Hermione will feel if Luna is the one who helps him work through the intricacies of the Prophecy ;)? From alina at distantplace.net Wed Jul 7 03:55:33 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 23:55:33 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The prophecy References: Message-ID: <005401c463d6$41714530$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 104733 > This has puzzled me too. If neither Harry or Voldemort can survive > while the other lives (assuming this is what the prophecy means), > then to paraphrase Harry, you'd have thought one of them would have > stopped moving. Leah One of them did stop moving. Voldemort. The moment he AKed Harry, Harry became the boy from the prophecy, up until that moment he wasn't. And as soon as that happened, Voldemort got vaporized. True, he's been reborn, but we don't know exactly what he is, it's possible what he is isn't classified as being alive. Personally, I think that the part of the prophecy that says that Harry and Voldemort can't both exist has already been fulfilled. Voldemort isn't dead, but he's not alive and Harry is. Alina. From greatraven at hotmail.com Wed Jul 7 03:59:27 2004 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 03:59:27 -0000 Subject: Question re "Mark Evans" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104734 I am puzzled at frequent references to 10-year-old Mark Evans as a relative of Harry's. Where, in canon, does it say this? Has JKR said it? If so, why are we told, time after time, that Harry's only relatives are the Dursleys? To be more precise - that Petunia is his mother's last remaining blood, the reason for the spell to protect him. Maybe I missed something somewhere? :-) If I have, and ME is a relative, why doesn't Harry seem to know this? Who is ME's Dad - a brother or cousin of Lily and Petunia? And why don't the rellies come over to complain about his being bashed up by Dudley? And why was Harry left with the Dursleys, horrible as they are, if there was another alternative? Evans is a common name - is there any reason why he has to be related? Just a few questions - if someone can point me in the right direction, I'll be happy . ;-) From greatraven at hotmail.com Wed Jul 7 04:06:35 2004 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 04:06:35 -0000 Subject: Snape Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104735 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > > The whole thing with Crouch!Moody is bothersome to me. This man > really manipulated the kids. He was quite a con artist....in > retrospect, who do you like better? Crouch!Moody or Snape? > (Assuming those are the only two choices?) Sue: Or which would you rather have as a teacher? (g) Well, Fake! Moody was actually quite a good teacher, whatever reason he was doing it. Pity about the DE background. He could have taught at Durmstrang, anyway. The quesation, now, is - will the real Moody be a good teacher if he ever does it? I'm not sure he will. Which is, of course, off-topic, sorry about that. I suspect Snape is the sort of teacher of whom you'd later say, "I didn't like him, but I sure learned my chemistry/Potions/whatever." > From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 04:12:32 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 04:12:32 -0000 Subject: Luna is very strange, was The Prophecy: Harry's interpretation and reaction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104736 Alora wrote: I do like Luna, and I, too, think she has a very spiritual take on things. But, why is her character so....odd? I don't get why she has to be someone that people giggle at or make fun of. I mean, JKR could have done that same thing with the character without making her look like a fool that believes crazy things. All I know is that I will go mad if she and Harry end up together. Not that Harry needs to end up with any girl, but NOT THAT ONE. vmonte responds: She is a little wacky, but I like that she is an individual. What I don't like is the CD reading of Luna in OOTP by J. Dale(?). The way he read Luna was really creepy. His interpretation of her sort of reminded me of wacko Trelawny. But to be honest even Dumbledore has moments were he comes off as being a bit wacky: "Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!" SS page 123, U.S. version. vivian P.S. I don't think that Harry and Luna are going to end up an item either. From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Jul 7 04:13:06 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 04:13:06 -0000 Subject: Harry and Achilles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104737 Carin: > Achilles was: > - A descendent of Zeus on his father's side; a product of a > mixed mortal/immortal marriage. Jen: Are you thinking pureblood/Muggleborn here for the mixed marriage? I couldn't think of anything else unless James descended from Godric G. and has some special powerin his lineage. Carin: > - Rendered *almost* immortal by his mother: she held him by the > heel and dipped him the Styx, the river of hell, which amounts > to protection from death by immersion in death; but of course > the un-wet heel left him with a crucial weak spot. Jen: Harry's eyes of course :). Don't know why yet, but JKR said they are his most vulnerable area. I'm wondering now if Lily's death had anything to do with her eyes...any thoughts on that? Carin > - Regarded by all as a warrior of superhuman power because of > his apparent invincibility. Jen: This one doesn't seem to apply to Harry. No one is overly impressed that he has defied Voldemort four times. Ho hum, all in a day's work; let's make fun of him in the Daily Prophet again! I guess maybe you were thinking when he was a baby? That was fun, Carin! I'm curious to hear your thoughts on the subject. Jen R. From garybec101 at comcast.net Wed Jul 7 04:39:11 2004 From: garybec101 at comcast.net (garybec) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 04:39:11 -0000 Subject: Harry's first Kiss In-Reply-To: <20040705082435.96395.qmail@web25307.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104738 > When asked Harry described kissing Cho as 'wet' (he was both serious and disappointed). I would not be inclined to even count this as a first real kiss. Yes he had a crush on Cho but it seemed to go rapidly down hill from this point. > > TTFN Udder Pen Dragon A quick thought from Becki' I hate to admit that the Cho under the mistletoe scene is one of my favorites. I have read the book several times and I also have it on CD, however, I had to hear it quite a few times before I realized that Harry and Cho were under that mistletoe for a half and hour, (the book states that Harry returned to the common room 30 minutes later). I think that counts as a first kiss and then some. Becki, who was sorry that Cho turned out to be such a poop. Harry deserves better. text portions of this message have been removed] From n2fgc at arrl.net Wed Jul 7 04:50:35 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 00:50:35 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 22 - St. Mungo's Hospital In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104739 | From: hebridean_black_dragn | | Hee! Replying to my own message. Hardly surprising, though, since the | reason I chose this chapter to summarize was the fact that it was one | of the most emotionally trying chapters in the book for me . . . as | you'll soon see. | | I'd like to address the questions: 1. "Do the adults (and Moody in | particular) really care about Harry as a person, or do they mostly see | him as a pawn in the fight against Voldemort?" | | and 2. "To what degree is Harry receiving (or *not* receiving) support | from the adults in his life?" | | My answers are 1) they sure don't seem to care about him in this | scene; and 2) not a whole heck of a lot. [Lee]: Agreed...and Moody's line about "the Potter kid"...As you say, definitely cold. I really think that to them he's 1) just a kid who needs taking care of and 2) someone/thing Voldy can use so they've got to protect him and do their duty. Molly's being over-motherly for the most part, Moody doesn't have much empathy, Lupin's trying but I think he feels bound by some orders as well as trying to maintain a "peace-maker" role...all adding up to something vague and not as supportive as Harry really needs. [You continue]: | While I was mostly disappointed with Moody, I also think that a great | many of the adults in Harry's life "dropped out" on him in OoP. While | I *was* disturbed by Harry's behaviour in OoP, in some ways it's hard | for me to fault him too much, as he's going through some serious stuff | in this book without a whole lot of support from the adults in his | life. I think the eavesdropped conversation at the end of this chapter | is a good illstration of this. [Lee]: Yes, Yes! And there are times when his peers aren't so "in his corner" either. Harry's sort of running the gauntlet alone in many places in the book. [Wendy continues]: | Now, I realise that Moody and Harry haven't really spent much time | together to form a relationship, and perhaps this sort of attitude is | better for an Auror - to not get involved with people emotionally. | Okay, okay, this may be true, but it just really hurt me to hear him | talk about Harry like that, and to know that Harry was hearing it, too. | | I was also less than thrilled with Molly, who doesn't come to his | defense when Moody says they *all* know there's something funny about | Harry. In fact, her response almost makes me think that she agrees, | but that since Dumbledore was worried about Harry, then perhaps *that* | mitigates Harry's "funny-ness" somehow. [Lee]: I sorta read her response as trying to convey that maybe a bit of concern for Harry's own emotional state after all this might be warranted, not just worrying about Harry seeing things, as Moody put it, through the eyes of You-Know-Who's snake. Again, I think Molly is a bit more emotionally oriented and, perhaps, might not know how to convey her concerns to seemingly insensitive people. However, I could be wrong and just hoping. :-) [Wendy again]: | In any case, this scene really disturbed me. I was uncomfortable with | the tone of the discussion about Harry, and I also had a lot of anger | and sadness that Harry had to hear them talking about him in this way. | Sure, they didn't know he was listening, but that doesn't make me feel | any better about what they said. I actually had to put the book down | after reading this so I could have a good cry about how DAMNED UNFAIR | it was of all of them to treat Harry this way, when he'd never done | anything to bring this upon himself. I was really angry and hurt on | Harry's behalf. [Lee]: I hear ya. I don't know about you, but when I was a kid, I used to do a lot of extra-curricular listening. :-) And it's amazing how parents can discuss a child like an object or whatever. I used to be annoyed but, at the same time, fascinated at the things they talked about. :) I will say that I really like Kingsley! He seemed to take a bit of time to treat Harry kindly...interested in his flying, etc. I don' know...I just like Mr. Shacklebolt. :-) Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me; | n2fgc at arrl.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 05:19:17 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 05:19:17 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 22 - St. Mungo's Hospital In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104740 I, Del, wrote : > Throughout the verbal fight between the Weasley kids and Sirius, I > felt like screaming at the twins "Here ! That's EXACTLY why nobody > wants to make kids like you members of the Order ! Because you're > unreliable under pressure". Molly might be annoying at times but > she's right : the kids are *kids* and must to a certain extent be > treated as such. To what extent is the problem of course. vmonte responded : > I don't really blame the Weasley kids for getting upset. Del replies : Oh, I don't blame them for getting upset either ! As you said, their father might be dying, it's perfectly normal that they want to be with him. I don't blame them either for not caring about the Order at that time. As I said, they are just *kids* after all. But I *am* saying that as long as they are kids and act like it when under pressure, the adults are right not to make them members of the Order. Not that I believe that all members of the Order can be trusted when pressured, but anyway... vmonte wrote : > I think that the children should be allowed in the Order. It's > obvious to me that DD is training them anyway. The way I see it, > Harry and gang are the ones who have been doing all the hard work > anyway. Del replies : I agree that DD is *training* the kids, but I disagree that they should be made members of the Order. At least not before the end of OoP, not before they fully realise what is really at stake. Harry is the only exception. He's fought LV several times, and he's *already* proven that he doesn't break under pressure. So yes, maybe Harry should have been allowed in the Order. But the others ? Nope. They've never met LV (well, Ginny has, but it wasn't present-day LV), they've never fought him or his DEs, they've never shown how well they can take pressure (as shown in their argument with Sirius, the Weasley kids might break if they think one of their parents is in danger). And most of them don't even know how to fight properly. And I disagree that it's the kids who've been doing all the hard work. Guarding that Prophecy might not look like much, but it's a dangerous job, just look at what happened to some of the guardians : one Imperiod and sent to Azkaban, one attacked by a deadly snake... It's also a dangerous job to try and recruit people for the Order, or to at least convince people that the Ministry is lying and LV is really back. Especially when you have powerful DEs buying or Imperioing influent people throughout the Ministry, or just evil or coward people refusing to face the truth. I agree that Harry is the one who keeps fighting LV, because that's his fate. However, without the support of his friends and the Order, he wouldn't make it very far. If he had gone straight to the DoM with only Ron and Hermione and without warning Snape, as he first intended to, then chances are that all three of them would be dead at the end of OoP. The Order might be doing a more peripherical job than Harry and the gang, but that doesn't mean it's any less important. Del From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed Jul 7 05:35:05 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 01:35:05 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: re:Absolutist/Boggart&Patronus/HappyMarriage/Floo$/Ev... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104741 In a message dated 07/05/2004 8:55:07 AM Central Daylight Time, lavaluvn at yahoo.com writes: > >I suspect that Snape doesn't have a Patronus, due to not having any > >happy memories. (Yes, Andromeda!) > > Ah! A kindred spirit! > > Depends on what you are using to qualify a happy memory. Sirius nearly getting his soul sucked out might be a happy memory for Snape but it certainly wouldn't be for Harry. While Snape hanging upside down showing his skivvies might have been Sirius' happy thought (Or possibly Lupin's). Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 05:45:50 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 05:45:50 -0000 Subject: Pity for Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104742 Alla wrote : > I am wondering what would make me pity Tom. Because right now I > cannot think of him as anybody else, but very pathetic maniacal > murderer. > > I suppose I have to see him doing some good, noble deeds. Ha! No, > talking more about his bad childhood is not enough for me. Del replies : It almost is for me. First he's an orphan who was raised in an orphanage. Second, he discovers (how ?) that his father denied his mother and let her to die and their kid to rot, just because she was different. Third, all the time he spends looking for the CoS makes me feel that he was craving a feeling of *belonging*, of *family*. His own family ceased to exist before he was even born, but Slytherin is willing to take him on as his Heir. Fourth, anger and hate often spring from pain and fear. How much pain and fear did Tom have in his heart to be able to carry out his plan to kill his father ? Most people just fantasize about killing someone they hate, even Harry does. But it takes something more to actually go and do it. Especially when it's a teenage boy going to kill his own father that he's never met before. So yes I pity Tom Riddle. I am aware that he was an arrogant prat, but as many of us keep repeating about one or the other characters, he was just a kid ! Del From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Wed Jul 7 05:47:00 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 05:47:00 -0000 Subject: Ringdear of the Marauders: Sirius or James? (was Kreacher the Murderer) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104743 First, apologies to Valky, I rearranged your post 104531 to make this post more coherent -- please forgive me! > > >>> Valky wrote in Message # 104531: > So Sirius is very very > intelligent, the kind of person who would notice if someone was > plotting against him. And of all people who would know that best but > one who raised him and cared for him through his life, ie Kreacher. > I think that Kreacher chose a 'befuddlement' draught because it gave > him precisely the result he needed. > One it would push Sirius over the edge to endanger his life > and Two because by befuddling Sirius he was giving himself the best > chance of success against Sirius' keen observation and intelligence. Bren now: Absolutely. Sirius is incredibly sharp, both street AND book smart. He does have an unfortunate habit of acting out of impulsive & momentary needs, but even then he remains quick. And I imagine Sirius will be very keen on anything fish going around, especially a plot against himself. The lad had been living in his worst nightmares for 12 years, I say he still remains very paranoid to this day. And Kreacher's timing was perfect, with Sirius stuck in that grim-old place. I suspect you'd need whole bunch of unusual ingredients for Befuddlement Draught though, wonder how Kreacher got his hands on that without Sirius knowing?!?! > I have gathered my Sirius blueprints together in my thoughts and > this is one aspect of his character that really sticks out. He is > remarkably quick off the mark! > When I imagine all the Marauders together and consider their roles > in their group I am certain that Sirius was extraordinarily > intelligent, in fact somewhat in Hermione's league I think. > > Ok enough straying back to the point. {By the way. I see James as having been highly gifted but a bit of a > dunderhead a bit like Ron, and Lupin as someone who's stand out > feature is his inner strength like Harry. > Of course they are their own people essentially and the analogies > are just to help draw the picture. Bren now: Hmm. This reminds me of something that I found very curious for a very long time. I wholeheartedly agree with Alla when she said "I was not at the smallest bit interested in James till OOP, I just did not care." in Message 104679. Neither did I. James seemed too goody-goody in the beginning, in fact the only not-so-perfect part was his messy hair (which is genetic, apparently). It was in PoA, when McGonagall said "Hogwarts has never had a pair of trouble-makers like them" (paraphrased) that I started liking James more. And OoP was definitely interesting. It struck me odd though, when I was reading all the posts re: Animagi and what it means. How Stag is the alpha-male dear and Dog is a faithful, dead loyal (literally) and best-friend. But why though? What makes James more 'alpha-male' than Sirius? James: brilliant, talented, brave, athletic, wealthy, pure-blooded, bully, popular... ... but mid-height, average-looking, somewhat mild (as far as we know, relatively speaking) Sirius OTOH: ALSO brilliant, talented, brave, wealthy, pure-blooded, *bully*, *popular* (pretty sure he was athletic too, just not a sports TEAM player)... ... but tall, "very good-looking" (probably had a line up of girls), aggressive, hot-bloode/impulsive, rebellious, owned COOL motorcycle (and the list goes on)... So how is it that JAmes is thought to be the leader of the Marauders? By default of reckless teenage Alpha-male standards, shouldn't Sirius be the "Man of Men", James the "best friend of the coolest guy", Lupin the "model student" and Peter well, Wormtail? My guess is that Sirius WAS the Man of Men, with James the main man in double acts, and so on. But after JAmes' death and HArry's unfortunate upbringing, which is widely blamed on Sirius as the betrayer, there was a shift in "evaluating" the Marauders. James, who most people sympathesize with, became the Alpha-male, and Sirius being put aside to the second. Bren, who had fun using the word "Alpha" but not "Beta" in one paragraph! But they await me in my lecture notes, sigh... From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 05:47:00 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 05:47:00 -0000 Subject: JKR says no, and she's no Dobby (was: Prince of Walpurgis ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104744 Ally wrote: Phil, she did not say that it wasn't Riddle, she said it wasn't Voldemort. How do you KNOW there isn't a difference? We don't know exactly what the circumstances were for Riddle becoming Voldemort. In a sense, Riddle transformed himself into something different. Borrowing on Steve's excellent analogy, like a caterpillar becoming a butterfly. They are the same but different. It's a metamorphasis. JKR - being the tricky one she is - could very well be looking at and planning to show Riddle in the same way - one person who transformed himself into another. In that sense, she can say its not Voldemort and it can turn out to be Riddle, and it wouldn't be inaccurate. Carol: And yet Voldemort in GoF uses Tom Riddle's father's bone as part of the potion that will resurrect him: "Bone of the father, you will restore your son!" or something like that--sorry to quote from memory). He also says something like "Listen to me reliving family history." Both the potion ingredient and the remark suggest that Voldemort is still Tom Riddle despite his distorted form and new body. Dumbledore addressing Voldemort as "Tom" in the MoM (without any protest from Voldemort IIRC) also suggests that not only Dumbledore and Voldemort but JKR herself regard Tom Riddle and Voldemort as the same person. Certainly Tom Riddle has changed through his crimes, his transformations, and his vaporization/restoration, but it was a gradual change, and he called himself Lord Voldemort while he was still releasing the basilisk but not yet guilty of his first murder (Moaning Myrtle). Even after the murder, he was still a boy afraid of being forced to return to the orphanage. It was also Tom Riddle Jr., future Head Boy at Hogwarts, who murdered his father and grandparents--three Avada Kedavras in one day by a boy of about seventeen. IMO that's when the transformation into Voldemort really began, after he cast the Unforgiveable Curses that irredeemably corrupted his soul, even though he still appeared to others as a handsome, talented boy. The change in his appearance as he sought immortality was more gradual. He didn't suddenly burst forth from a cocoon to become a (marvelously ugly) butterfly. Yes, he did leave his body when he was vaporized, but that didn't make him any more Voldemort than he already was. Nor did the restoration to a new, presumably identical body, constituted partly of his own father's bone, change his identity (whatever role Harry's blood and Wormtail's hand may play later). He still perceive himself as Tom Riddle, and oddly, I think, allows the Death Eaters (except those who are still in Azkaban) to become aware of his Muggle ancestry. IOW, as I see it, he is still both Tom Riddle and Voldemort, and I think that's how JKR sees it as well because that's how he's been presented to us. So IMO when JKR says that the HPB isn't Voldemort, she also means that it isn't Tom Riddle. I'm not arguing with anybody who chooses to see otherwise; just presenting my reasons for thinking that she's not playing mind games here. I do agree, however, that it's high time we found out more about Tom's mother and his grandfather Marvolo and whether there's a connection between young Tom and Grindelwald regardless of ahow all this ties in with the Pransome Hince--I mean, the Half Blood Prince. Carol, who grudgingly admits that she went back to JKR's site and found the Mark Evans excuse quite amusing on a second reading and is ready to forgive her for being a fallible human being like the rest of us. From paul_terzis at yahoo.gr Wed Jul 7 05:57:50 2004 From: paul_terzis at yahoo.gr (paul_terzis) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 05:57:50 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry and Hermione Foreshadowing in PoA movie? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104745 > > As JKR says on her website: > > "'Does Hermione love Ron or Harry?' > > I can't believe that some of you haven't worked this one out yet, > > but I'm not going to answer because that would spoil the > > arguments, which I enjoy." > > Peace people. This quote is overly used but it says absolutely nothing. JKR is not revealing anything about this. The only thing we can do is to surmise having at our disposal circumstantial evidence but not hard facts. I know we all have our preferences about the ships that we are not willing to renounce but lets try to use unambiguous scenes from canon and the movies to support our grounds. Cheers, Paul P.S. Sorry people but I cannot resist " HELLAS EUROPEAN SOCCER CHAMPION 2004 " From paul_terzis at yahoo.gr Wed Jul 7 05:59:57 2004 From: paul_terzis at yahoo.gr (paul_terzis) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 05:59:57 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry and Hermione Foreshadowing in PoA movie? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104746 > > As JKR says on her website: > > "'Does Hermione love Ron or Harry?' > > I can't believe that some of you haven't worked this one out yet, > > but I'm not going to answer because that would spoil the > > arguments, which I enjoy." > > Peace people. This quote is overly used but it says absolutely nothing. JKR is not revealing anything about this. The only thing we can do is to surmise having at our disposal circumstantial evidence but not hard facts. I know we all have our preferences about the ships that we are not willing to renounce but lets try to use unambiguous scenes from canon and the movies to support our grounds. Cheers, Paul P.S. Sorry people but I cannot resist " HELLAS EUROPEAN SOCCER CHAMPION 2004 " From gertgal at aol.com Tue Jul 6 22:18:41 2004 From: gertgal at aol.com (Ginger) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 22:18:41 -0000 Subject: Galleons and Galleons o' fun. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104747 >Lisa: > Anyone have any theories on how Lily & James made their > money? > what's the deal with invisibility cloaks? I > know they're expensive and supposedly rare... Gielreta: I think that perhaps James and Lily had some profitable secret/businesss or were valuable themselves in some way. Voldemort wanted to eliminate all the male Potters. Also, extreme care was taken to hide the Potters. I don't remember reading about any other anti-Voldie people being protected with Fidelius charms... Perhaps Lily and James's bloodline (including Harry) is the guardian of a secret treasure hoard. Or maybe their ancestors are important (Godric Gryffindor?) The ultimate showdown would be between the last heir of Slytherin and the (last?) heir of Gryffindor... About the cloaks. We know that some people (Dumbledore) can become invisible without cloaks. Also, people like Moody can cast Disillusionment charms that function as camoflage. Maybe the Deatheaters had to be seen. Perhaps Harry had to surrender the prophecy. Or maybe they were just so glutted with their prospects of success that they concerned such petty disguises beneath them. Hi! I'm new by the way. I'm really excited about this board! Gielreta- the perfect compilation From pete_larkin at btinternet.com Tue Jul 6 22:40:08 2004 From: pete_larkin at btinternet.com (peter838169) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 22:40:08 -0000 Subject: Theory: Dumbledore to Teach Defence Against the Dark Arts? In-Reply-To: <654384163.20040706151657@mindspring.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104748 Tuesday, July 6, 2004, 1:10:32 PM, haraheart wrote: h> Is it known if he does actually teach any subjects? It is said that in CoS he did teach transfiguration at the time Tom Riddle was attending school. I also remember reading somewhere that Dumbledore is very skilled at the Dark Arts, he just chooses not to use them. I suppose to be such a powerful wizard and be the only one feared by Voldemort he must have a very good knowledge of the dark arts. I think that with the upcoming "war" it may seem wise that Dumbledore be the teacher of Defence Against the Dark Arts, seeing as he's the only one Voldemort fears, right? Pete From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 06:00:25 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 06:00:25 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited--emotional maturity (Very long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104749 demetra wrote: > "I'm bored," said Sirius. "Wish it was full moon." > "You might," said Lupin darkly from behind his book. (OotP, page > 645) > No, I think that Lupin did mind Sirius' comment. Why else would he > reply "darkly". I think it was a thoughtlessly cruel comment on > Sirius' part, perhaps one of those impulsive outbursts. But notice, > even when Lupin calls him on it, there is no apology. I don't even > think Sirius caught on that he was being obnoxious. Del replies : I agree. Compare this with the scene between Harry and Ginny : (OoP, UK p.441-442) "Well, that was a bit stupid of you," said Ginny angrily, "seeing as you don't know anyone but me who's been possessed by You-Know-Who, and I can tell you how it feels." Harry remained quite still as the impact of these words hit him. Then he wheeled around. "I forgot," he said. "Lucky you," said Ginny coolly. "I'm sorry," Harry said, and he meant it. Harry forgot one of his friends' particularities (and that was about something that happened more than 2 years ago, not last month), but when Ginny shows that it's still a sensitive issue for her, Harry apologises. Sirius didn't. Del From pete_larkin at btinternet.com Tue Jul 6 23:04:58 2004 From: pete_larkin at btinternet.com (peter838169) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 23:04:58 -0000 Subject: Snape Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104750 >vmonte wrote: > >How do you pretend to be a DE? Voldemort doesn't seem like the kind >of guy that would just let his people sit on the side lines while he >did all the killing. In fact, Voldemort often has his DEs do the >dirty work for him. Perhaps the fact that Snape is an extremely well trained occlumens made him perfect for the job of being spy and being able to lie to Voldemort. Rather than being a DE then be converted to join the good side. This would show that Snape is actually a good guy and just perceived as bad because of the job he had to do, I'm still not saying he's nice. From plinker at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 23:38:03 2004 From: plinker at yahoo.com (Plinker) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 23:38:03 -0000 Subject: Think on This...... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104751 What does the group consider the three MOST IMPORTANT things to watch for in the next book? This being based on what we have found in the books published to date. If you think of more let it rip. From armadillof at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 23:53:24 2004 From: armadillof at yahoo.com (armadillof) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 23:53:24 -0000 Subject: Why Snape is evil -MY THEORY Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104752 Since it's almost certain *IMO anyway* that Snape was the person who overheard a large portion of the prophecy in the Hog's Head, and since we *know* he was a DE-turned spy, it makes sense that Voldemort tries (or has tried) to use legilimency/occlumency with Snape, as Snape would likewise use with him in return. Because Snape knew that it would be either child born as the seventh month dies who would have the power to vanquish the Dark Lord, as a spy he would have to appear loyal to the DEs/Voldemort...and not to either Harry or Neville. Therefore, he treats BOTH horribly....he can use the great tool of selective memory, so that if any DE questions him and where his loyalties lie, he can use his legilimency/occlumency to recall his memories in which he has treated both Harry & Neville like crud. That is probably why people like Lucius Malfoy and the dark wizard crowd appreciate him still. They do not see him as against their cause. It also explains why it is imperative for him to appear evil. CAN'T WAIT TILL HE CAN COME CLEAN! :) AF ...and Lupin is not ESE... From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 06:07:49 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 06:07:49 -0000 Subject: If Mark Evans is nobody who is Megan Jones? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104753 Arya wrote: > Don't forget Gwenog Jones, the captain of the Holyhead Harpies and > recently featured Witch of the Month on Jo's website. I also noted, > that just like Hestia, Gwenog was depicted as black. Coicidence? > Relation? Same last name, similar racial description... Del replies : I don't know about Gwenog, but Hestia isn't black. She's described in my book as "a pink-cheeked, black-haired witch". I just can't imagine my uncle, who's black, as ever having pink cheeks... Del From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Wed Jul 7 06:07:31 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 06:07:31 -0000 Subject: Pity for Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104754 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > Alla wrote : > > I am wondering what would make me pity Tom. Because right now I > > cannot think of him as anybody else, but very pathetic maniacal > > murderer. > > > > I suppose I have to see him doing some good, noble deeds. Ha! No, > > talking more about his bad childhood is not enough for me. > > Del replies : > It almost is for me. > > First he's an orphan who was raised in an orphanage. > > Second, he discovers (how ?) that his father denied his mother and let > her to die and their kid to rot, just because she was different. > > Third, all the time he spends looking for the CoS makes me feel that > he was craving a feeling of *belonging*, of *family*. His own family > ceased to exist before he was even born, but Slytherin is willing to > take him on as his Heir. > > Fourth, anger and hate often spring from pain and fear. How much pain > and fear did Tom have in his heart to be able to carry out his plan to > kill his father ? Most people just fantasize about killing someone > they hate, even Harry does. But it takes something more to actually go > and do it. Especially when it's a teenage boy going to kill his own > father that he's never met before. > > So yes I pity Tom Riddle. I am aware that he was an arrogant prat, but > as many of us keep repeating about one or the other characters, he was > just a kid ! Bren now: Well put, Del, once again! You took the words out of my mouth... I mean fingers (should really stop using that phrase, it's getting OLD - - *shrug*) Tom Riddle had the very unfortunate dispositions in him to begin with. It's not his fault that he was born with the snaky urges and Salazar Slytherin's (again) serpenty blood in him. He REALLY needed proper care and devoted love from his (complete) family more than anyone else. If he learned to love and be loved in return, perhaps he would have the *power* to make *real choices* away from his dispositions ("Heir of Slytherin, purging those who are not worthy of...") But he didn't. He spent his childhood full of hatred and pain, naturally letting his Salazar-nature to take over. What/who did he have in his life to guide TR to light, make him see why morals are important? "My mum didn't do anything wrong and she was deserted. World isn't fair. No, the only way to rule the world is to be as immoral as possible." -- I can see this coming out of TR's brain. Combine this with ambition, thirst to prove himself and the superbly brilliant self -- well you can imagine what the outcome will be. I'm not by all means justifying Tom Riddle, what he did was dead wrong and as immoral as it can get. But I totally understand where he is coming from, understand what it was like for him (who was born with certain 'evilness'). Did he know right from wrong systematically? Yes, probably learned all that in school, etc etc. But did he REALLY understand it, did he learn to put himself in others' shoes. My answer is NO, he had too much hurt of his own to make him care, and he didn't have enough guide/help to make him see the other side. Bren From pandrea100 at hotmail.com Wed Jul 7 00:05:28 2004 From: pandrea100 at hotmail.com (pandrea100) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 00:05:28 -0000 Subject: Mark Evans Is....NOBODY! / Heir of Gryffindor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104755 I have to say I think this revelation is hilarious! I had never really noticed Mark Evans until joining this site a few weeks back, but then all the speculation and theories had me convinced that there really must be something important about him. Doh! However, in the funny explanation JK gives for this, there is one interesting point, where she talks about the theories that he was the HBP, Harry's great aunt and the HEIR of GRYFFINDOR. Now, the last one is a common theory, either that Harry is the H of G or someone else is who may or may not also be the HBP. But the way she includes it in that list, to me implies that she's classing it with stuff that will not turn out to be included in the books. I now feel it is less likely that there will ever be a H of G. Pandrea (PS, thanks to the person who explained the acronyms for me) From pandrea100 at hotmail.com Wed Jul 7 00:11:52 2004 From: pandrea100 at hotmail.com (pandrea100) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 00:11:52 -0000 Subject: Petunia doth protest overly much In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104756 Jocelyn wrote: > > I am still puzzling over the "Remember my last" in OotP though. > There was some bargain struck between her and DD, no doubt. We know > she agreed to keep Harry but what did DD agree to as his side of the > bargain? She certainly seemed terrified of the agreement being > broken! I think the obvious explanation is most likely. Dumbledore is a hugely powerful wizard and she is terrified of magic - maybe she thinks that he'll curse her or kill her if they chuck Harry out. Maybe Dumbledore had a little fun and threatened her a little to that effect, though he wouldn't of course actually attack her. Or maybe he just said something like "Well, if you throw Harry out, it will naturally become well known and many angry wizards and witches will turn up on your doorstep, thereby destroying your oh-so-normal life." Pandrea From pandrea100 at hotmail.com Wed Jul 7 00:07:58 2004 From: pandrea100 at hotmail.com (pandrea100) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 00:07:58 -0000 Subject: Snape Question In-Reply-To: <001901c46365$420224e0$58c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104757 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cathy Drolet" wrote: > I thought it interesting, also, that Trelawney has been at Hogwarts, it seems, virtually since she made the prediction in front of Dumbledore. Wasn't that because they met when she went for the job? And I think he was just being kind in not kicking her out when Umbridge had already upset her. >Is that also the reason Snape has been at the school for 14 years...to protect him in some way? I don't know. I definitely think the 14 years is not a coincidence. It's too neat that he started teaching then, presumably at the start of the school year therefore only a few weeks after Harry's parents were killed. It may just be that he had nowhere else to go so DD took him in. Pandrea From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 06:23:57 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 06:23:57 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 22 - St. Mungo's Hospital In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104758 Meri wrote: > I think that the list of adults who truly care about Harry is fairly > short: Mr and Mrs Weasley, DD, McGonogall, Sirius, Lupin, Hagrid. > That's about all. Del replies : I might be weird, but I think it's already a lot. When I was a teenager (and not even a "troublesome" one like Harry), I don't think anyone truly cared about me apart from my mom, my sister, my best friend in Senior High, and a few friends at church. And when I look around me, I see that it's a general thing : close family, good friends, some of the peple you often associate with, those are generally the people who truly care for you. Harry's close family doesn't care for him, granted, but all the adults you mentioned, plus his two best friends do. That seems quite OK to me. Del From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed Jul 7 06:41:58 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 02:41:58 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Movie PoA Foreshadows Books 6 & 7 Message-ID: <65.2daba6b0.2e1cf536@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104759 In a message dated 07/05/2004 2:57:16 AM Central Daylight Time, srobles at caribe.net writes: > >Clue 4) Hermione's wand is mysteriously powerful! We still have no > >idea what the core is in her wand. > > JKR is a very sneaky woman... why would she neglect to inform us what > the wand of the "brightest witch her age" is made of? Unless it will > prove to be very valuable information in the future. > Ohh here's a theory. Is it possible that it could be a phoenix feather (if Harry using Hermione's wand to great effect in POA the movie is one of the things that gave her chills) We know that Fawlkes only ever gave 2 feathers . . .does anyone have a copy of Fabluous Beasts and Where To Find them lying about? (mine has mislaid itself) What does it say about Phoenixes ..do they mate for life? (relatively speaking of course). Could Hermione's mysterious core be from Fawlkes mate? (Presumming, of course, that Hermione's wand core is important later in the story) Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 06:41:34 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 06:41:34 -0000 Subject: Theory: Dumbledore to Teach Defence Against the Dark Arts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104760 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "peter838169" wrote: > I was most interested after reading an essay on the Harry Potter > Lexicon about who will be the new DADA teacher. I know there is much > speculation about Bill Weasley, Fleur, Lupin or possibly Snape > taking the position, but all have been found to have downfalls in > the reasoning that they could take the position. > > I would like to make a speculation of my own and ask what people > think about Dumbledore taking the position of Defence Against the > Dark Arts teacher or possibly teaching a selected group of students. > > ...edited... > > Pete asian_lovr2: I can't see Dumbledore being the DADA teacher in books 6. He has far too much to do to be tied at the school all the time. He has to take part in the Wizard's High Court, he has to take part in the International Confederation of Wizards in a primary role, he has to manage The Order of the Phoenix, and he has to take care of his administrative duties at the school. Given that the wizard world is about to be plunged into chaos, the demands on his time are going to be greater and greater, and I just don't see him having time for several regularly scheduled classes every day. I will add this- In book 6, Dumbledore can not afford to be DADA techer. In book 7, Dumbledore can not affort NOT to be DADA teacher. So, my prediction is- In book 6, Snape will be DADA teacher, and in book 6, Snape will die. In book 7, Dumbledore will be DADA teacher, and in book 7, Dumbledore will die. For the record- I think HARRY is the JINX on the DADA teaching position. The bad luck began when he arrived, and when Harry is finally gone from school, the bad luck on the job will go with him. For what it's worth. Steve/asian_lovr2 From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Wed Jul 7 06:49:47 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 06:49:47 -0000 Subject: If Mark Evans is nobody who is Megan Jones? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104761 I wrote: > > Don't forget Gwenog Jones, the captain of the Holyhead Harpies and > > recently featured Witch of the Month on Jo's website. I also noted, > > that just like Hestia, Gwenog was depicted as black. Coicidence? > > Relation? Same last name, similar racial description... > > Del replied : > I don't know about Gwenog, but Hestia isn't black. She's described in > my book as "a pink-cheeked, black-haired witch". I just can't imagine > my uncle, who's black, as ever having pink cheeks... ------ Arya again: Doh!! I must of skipped over the "-haired" part!! And all this time, I've been envisioning Hestia as black....oh well. I guess it only changes the mental connection I made when I saw the drawing of Gwenog, who definitely was black, to now not at all be being related. But maybe Megan Jones is related to Gwenog and not Hestia? Or maybe....Jones is a common name. Slinking away, Arya From sherriola at earthlink.net Mon Jul 5 20:07:15 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 14:07:15 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: <40E9B304.40008@tds.net> Message-ID: <005201c462cb$ac0aab40$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 104762 Jen Reese wrote: >>--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" >> wrote: >> >> >>>Consider: >>> >>>Dog eat dog >>>To die like a dog >>>To go to the dogs >>>In the doghouse >>>A dirty dog >>>Dog in a manger >>>Black dog > > > Jen: A few more, for my side: > > Dog-eared (much-loved) > Every dog has his day > Man's best friend > Loyal like a dog > Dogged Lie down with dogs, get up with fleas. Jem Sherry now I suppose it depends on how you feel about dogs. I never use any of those old negative connotations of dog in conversation. I know too well the devotion and sacrifice my dog makes for me. And besides, my dog doesn't have fleas. I take good care of her. Smile. And for the black lab comment ... yes, she is a black lab. The dog I had when POA came out--the book--was a yellow lab, but I never thought of the big black dog as something scary. To me, the fact that it was a dog made me sure it was going to be something good in the end. I guess the question is, how does JKR feel about dogs? Sherry G From anmsmom333 at cox.net Wed Jul 7 06:54:46 2004 From: anmsmom333 at cox.net (Theresa) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 06:54:46 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited--emotional maturity In-Reply-To: <20040707015149.62987.qmail@web42103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104763 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, AnitaKH wrote: [Whole lotta snipping going on] > > > > akh: As I've doubtless stated before, one of the best features of JKR's writing for me is the emotional/psychological truth of the characters. In the case of Sirius, I've seen a million of 'em. Well, perhaps not quite that many, but as a former actress, his type is rife in the business. Sirius always stuck me as the good-looking, charistmatic type who had a difficult time as a child and who is devoted to friends and those he loves. However, he is also devoted to Self, so the feelings of others are not always apparent or, frankly, important to him. A very dear friend of mine (unfortunately deceased) WAS Sirius, in many ways. His parents, while not cruel, had a troubled relationship that he took personally. He could be the best friend you ever had, followed closely by an astoundingly cruel remark. My excuse for him was, "He doesn't mean to be a bastard..." and it was very apt. > > The point of this ramble is to say that Sirius is undoubtedly well- intentioned (much of GOF), sincerely attached to his loved ones (Shrieking Shack scene in POA and Christmas in OOTP)and has an easy time endearing himself to those whom he takes the trouble to charm. However, while not necessarily egotistical, he is self-absorbed, a trait which is frequently accompanied by a total lack of self- awareness. Since I have a passel of friends who fit this description, I like Sirius a lot! > > akh, who hopes her actor friends aren't on this list - then again, they'd never recognize themselves, would they? > Theresa: Wow, Anita! I think you perfectly described him. Loveable but sometime one who doesn't think before acting and comes off acting like a bastard. I loved Remus, and Sirius from the first reading of POA (before any movies came out). I actually read the first three books in a few days time and remembered Sirius as the motorbike wizard from PS/SS. Anyway, I have always felt Sirius and James (and MCGonnagal even says they were in POA) the ringleaders of their group. They were clever and good-looking boys who liked attention and were allowed to get away with a few broken rules. I believe Sirius was so constrained at home by mommy dearest that he felt the need to let loose at school (this was an OotP revelation to me). James, I think came from money and was just spoiled and used to being the center of attention. However, I feel both were basically good guys - just tended to take things a bit too far. I too have had friends that can take a joke too far. I have always been like Hermione - very studious almost to an extreme and they constantly harassed me about reading too much and at times have made me near tears for saying things like 'she won't believe you because she didn't read it somewhere' or something much worse like `ask her she knows everything'. Now I know most of the time they didn't mean it and usually I gave them the look Emma Watson in PS/SS does, when Ron comments about her light reading material but they were and are good people who just love to tease and joke. Granted I also feel someone with thinner skin than I might not have taken it as easily as I did. Anyway, I have always believed that something ticked off Sirius and James and they jokingly told Snape about the tree thinking he was not brave like they and would never go and do it. Then as he approached the tree, James thought, "Crap! I better stop him". Who knows maybe by then Lily even knew about Remus' condition and chastised them and so James ever so trying to impress fair maiden listened to her and saved Snape. 'The Prank' is one of the mysteries I hope comes to light in book 6 or 7, if not I suppose unless JK reveals it, we shall never know. As for the pensieve scene...I do not feel that like the children mentioned by moms on this list (btw I am a mom of two boys myself), Snape was not the poor mistreated fellow student. I think he was an ambitious crafty and clever boy (knew more curses than most 7th years when he came to school) but he was not necessarily a nice sweet innocent person who was 'picked on'. I think it was apparent in the pensieve scene that he 'dished it out' too. He attacked James while his back was turned. Granted James started it and then Sirius jumped in to help James when he was attacked from behind but I think Snape probably was a bit like Draco while in school - not the rich kid part but the willingness to hex a classmate. Now as for the part about Sirius not saying sorry to Remus, I go back to my friends who I still adore who have never once said `you know we were only teasing', it would have been nice but I just don't expect it and for the most part they are nice people. In my opinion, he should have said `sorry mate, didn't mean it like that' but I think adult Sirius would have to him. But just like me Remus was just used to him by then. It seems as though he somewhat ignores most of the antics with Snape and just sits and studies for his next OWL. I also feel that the dementors did have a definite affect on Sirius. It is apparent in the Shack and at Grimmauld Place. He just seems like someone suffering from manic depression to me ? his moods swing to quickly. As for his treatment of Kreacher, well I think if it were Dobby or Winky, Sirius would not treat them the same way. Even Ron and the twins talk about Kreacher as if he is a horrid little house elf ? Ron tells Harry to watch out for him. So I figure that was not a good example since IMHO anyone would tire of that wretched creature. Anyway, this is longer than I intended so I will close with a rap up ? all I am saying is yes I agree Sirius AND James were ornery good looking rich boys who had a knack for trouble, however, Snape was not an innocent lamb here. I still love all of the marauders except Peter (I think he always had some ulterior motive). I accept them bad habits and all as loveable, goodhearted (deep down) champions of what is good and right. And I am still intrigued by Snape who I believe is a good guy but a sour puss. Maybe he had a `Dudley' at home growing up. And one final point ? I have always felt Harry gets his good-natured attitude ? saying thank you and I am sorry from his mother. Lily was supposedly the kind, goodhearted clever witch. I think it is her traits that allowed him to survive the Dursleys. Theresa who also never really thought about James' personality until OotP From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 07:08:59 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 07:08:59 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 22 - St. Mungo's Hospital In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104764 Wendy wrote : > > I'd like to address the questions: 1. "Do the adults (and Moody in > > particular) really care about Harry as a person, or do they mostly > > see him as a pawn in the fight against Voldemort?" > > > > and 2. "To what degree is Harry receiving (or *not* receiving) > > support from the adults in his life?" > > > > My answers are 1) they sure don't seem to care about him in this > > scene; and 2) not a whole heck of a lot. Lee added : > Molly's being over-motherly for the most part, Moody doesn't have > much empathy, Lupin's trying but I think he feels bound by some > orders as well as trying to maintain a "peace-maker" role...all > adding up to something vague and not as supportive as Harry really > needs. Del replies, with a very puzzled look on her face : OK you two, I'm completely at sea here ! Could you tell me what you think the adults should do to show support to Harry ? It seems to me that they're doing a good job, but obviously you don't think so, but I can't for the life of me figure what you think they should be like. Please enlighten me, would you ? > Lee wrote : > Yes, Yes! And there are times when his peers aren't so "in his > corner" either. Harry's sort of running the gauntlet alone in many > places in the book. Del replies : Uh, you kind of lost me with your idioms, but I'll assume I understood what you meant :-) (I do that all the time ;-) So you say Harry is on his own most of the time ? I say : yes of course, he's a teenager ! Most teenagers *feel* like they are all alone with their problems, so it doesn't surprise me that Harry feels the same. However, many teenagers are wrong in thinking that nobody's there for them, and Harry is wrong too. But most teenagers won't accept help even when it is offered to them, they will pretend everything is OK or that they can handle things on their own, and so Harry does too. We see how Harry feels and seems all alone to face his problems, but that's only because the book is about Harry. I'm sure if we saw things through Ron or Hermione's eyes, we'd see that they too feel and seem all alone. And Neville too ! Lee wrote: > I hear ya. I don't know about you, but when I was a kid, I used to > do a lot of extra-curricular listening. :-) And it's amazing how > parents can discuss a child like an object or whatever. I used to be > annoyed but, at the same time, fascinated at the things they talked > about. :) Del replies : Yep, because that's the *normal* way to talk about people. Isn't it what we do on this list too ? We talk about characters we sometimes care a lot about, but too often it comes accross as a cold analysis of some bizarre object. It's normal. Del From ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 07:19:25 2004 From: ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com (A.J.) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 07:19:25 -0000 Subject: Read any Flamel lately? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104765 Anyone want to postulate on ideas they get from reading this? http://www.levity.com/alchemy/flamsumm.html Note the rich plethora of elements you will find in HP. I particularly noticed this one... "As soon then as nature has formed argent vive, of the two after-named spirits, then it endeavors to make them perfect and corporeal; but when the spirits are of strength, and the two sperms awakened out of their central principle, then they desire to assume their own bodies. Which being done, argent vive the mother must die, and being thus naturally mortified, cannot (as dead things cannot) quicken itself as before. " Am I only imagining why this sounds familiar? Curious for input, aj From n2fgc at arrl.net Wed Jul 7 07:23:07 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 03:23:07 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 22 - St. Mungo's Hospital In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104766 >From vmonte: | Del comments : | Throughout the verbal fight between the Weasley kids and Sirius, I | felt like screaming at the twins "Here ! That's EXACTLY why nobody | wants to make kids like you members of the Order ! Because you're | unreliable under pressure". Molly might be annoying at times but she's | right : the kids are *kids* and must to a certain extent be treated as | such. To what extent is the problem of course. | | | vmonte responds: | | I don't really blame the Weasley kids for getting upset. This | argument happens right after the children find out that their father | was attacked by a snake. Their father could be dead or dying for all | they know. If my father was mortally wounded and someone told | me 'well your father knew what he was getting into,' I would probably | say "sr%w you and your Order" too. [Lee]: Agreed, and I know a lot of adults who would probably react like Fred and George, et al. This is personal; this is family who's hurt and the first thing one would probably want to do is be with that loved person. Look, IMO, I don't care how much experience and such a person may have, but when we're talking about someone really close, all that detachment can fly out the proverbial window; the instinct to get to the hurt one is alive and well. If that's considered childish, well, perhaps, then, I'd never work out in the order, either...and I'm no kid. :-) Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me; | n2fgc at arrl.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From jlawlor at gmail.com Wed Jul 7 01:20:45 2004 From: jlawlor at gmail.com (James Lawlor) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 20:20:45 -0500 Subject: Introduction, and thoughts regarding HPL:Puzzles and Mysteries Message-ID: <96773c88040706182028572070@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104767 Hello! I decided to join HPFG and wanted to jump right in with an introduction and some thoughts about some questions mentioned on the HP Lexicon's page on Puzzles and Mysteries. I'm looking forward to being part of this group, being both a fan of Harry Potter and mature discussion. *grin* Although I don't know about growing up. You know, that reminds me. Something that struck me about the Harry Potter books recently: They can be pretty silly at times. I didn't think this was a bad thing, really, but maybe it got on my nerves a bit from time to time. But then I thought, you know, there's nothing wrong with being silly. Perhaps that's one reason they're so popular. J.K. Rowling isn't afraid of being silly, and we all could use some silliness after all. Just look at Dumbledore! Anyway, without further ado, my thoughts: - Why change the Triwizard Cup into a Portkey? (Spoilers for GoF and OotP) After having read this question a short while back (on Mugglenet, I believe) it didn't make sense to me either - it was a lot of trouble just to get Harry to the churchyard. But then I thought about it, and if you keep certain things in mind, it makes perfect sense. While Trina Gabbard's explanation at HPL works, I think of things a bit differently. First of all, from Order of the Phoenix, we know that after his return, Voldemort does not want to make himself known to those outside his Death Eaters. If he wanted to, it would have been much simpler to get the prophecy himself, instead of luring Harry to the Department of Mysteries. But as secrecy was one of Voldemorts most powerful weapons at that point (which we can see from the divisiveness caused against Harry and Dumbledore) he could not afford to show himself, especially in the Ministry of Magic, except as a last resort. If we consider the plan involving the Triwizard Tournament it is the best, and really the only way to keep anyone (and in particular, Dumbledore) from finding out that Voldemort had returned to power. It would have been easy enough for Crouch-as-Moody to turn Harry's toothbrush or pillow into a portkey. But if Harry had disappeared from his bed or the bathroom never to be seen again, it would have caused quite a stir. When Harry could not be found, people would obviously begin to wonder if Voldemort had anything to do with it. There would be no proof, but the Order would be suspicious, and would naturally redouble their efforts to keep tabs on him. The Triwizard tournament is the perfect cover - it's dangerous. Not so dangerous that it would be obvious that it was a setup to trap Harry, but dangerous enough that it would work. If things had gone precisely to Voldemort's plan, Harry would have taken the cup, and found himself in the graveyard to witness Voldemort's return. He would have been killed, and transported back to the maze. There, Crouch-as-Moody would only have to make sure that Harry's body was sufficiently mangled, and perhaps dispose of any witnessess, and it would be finished. Voldemort revived, and Harry dead with a perfectly logical reason. Crouch goes back into hiding, Moody is released or killed as the situation requires, and Voldemort is free to build his power in hiding. An almost perfect plan, except for a few details. Mainly, of course, that Harry made it out alive. Snape could have also caused a problem. If Voldemort knows that Snape is working for the Order, and could or would not stop the Dark Mark from summoning Snape, he would have to assume that the Order could possibly be tipped off. - How did Sirius order that Firebolt without giving himself away? How did he get the money out of his vault? And for that matter, how did Mrs. Weasley get money out of Harry's vault? As for the first question, I thought of a couple answers, but if you think about them too much they begin to fall apart, so I offer the easy explanation: The Goblins didn't care to inform anyone that Sirius Black had been making large withdrawals. As for the Weasleys, it could easily have been arranged so they have permission. Or possibly there's magic at Gringotts that would prevent someone dishonestly taking money out of someone else's vault. - James Lawlor From yutu75es at yahoo.es Wed Jul 7 09:44:19 2004 From: yutu75es at yahoo.es (fridwulfa hagrid) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 11:44:19 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR requested bat shot in PS/SS film... References: Message-ID: <006501c46406$fc6a41e0$39e06750@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 104768 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arya" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 4:59 AM Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR requested bat shot in PS/SS film... > "fridwulfa hagrid" wrote: > > > > We know that the scene where we see Lily's being murdered, the flashback, > > contained, at first, the murder of James too. JK asked especifically that > > only Lily should be seen. That reinforced the idea that the male voice Harry > > hears when the dementors approach him "It's him, Lily, take Harry and > > run..." was not James's, that James was maybe already dead and there was a > > third person in the house. Snape and Lupin are the favourite theories. > -------------- > Arya responded: > Here I go, debunking....counter my points if you can. :D Here's the thing--I don't see > how that voice could have been Snape's or Lupin's of all the people (other than the > most likely--that it is just simply James). See, in the book, Hary hears 'a new voice, a > man's'. How could Harry not hear that voice and, if it was Lupin, not immediately > recognize it as Lupin's when Lupin is then the very next person to talk to him?? And if > it was Snape's, how could Harry, who's heard Snape yell more than almost anyone, > not recignize the voice as the very distinctive voice of Snape's? > > Me (Fridwulfa) I'm not saying I believe this theories to be true, I was just explaining that some people believed them to be a possibility. What's for sure is that something happened with James. "He put a corageous fight", said Voldemort. Something of importance happened before he tried to kill Harry and Lily. What, I don't know. We'll have to wait, I guess, in order to find out. CHeers Fridwulfa From gertgal at aol.com Wed Jul 7 02:36:19 2004 From: gertgal at aol.com (Ginger) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 02:36:19 -0000 Subject: Pensieve = Security Camera? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104769 >Carol: > As for Snape studying his own memories, that's a distinct possibility, > but he was clearly using the Pensieve for a different purpose (hiding > his memories from Harry and thus from Voldemort) during the Occlumency > lessons. Gielreta: I wonder...Why was Snape hiding these memories from Harry? He obviously knew that Voldemort had access to anything in Harry's head. Was Snape hiding the memory because it was embarassing and he didn't want Harry to see it, or did he hide it because it is a weak spot that he doesn't want Voldemort to see? Both? If it is the latter possibility, it is now in Harry's head. Could Voldemort access/use it from there? Gielreta- the perfect compilation From marnyhelfrich at comcast.net Wed Jul 7 02:01:02 2004 From: marnyhelfrich at comcast.net (Marny Helfrich) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 22:01:02 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CoS clues to Books 6 & 7 analysis References: Message-ID: <035801c463c6$4179eb00$8e2f8c45@mynewputer> No: HPFGUIDX 104770 I am sure as a phoenix > sings that this implies *most* of the artefacts and objects in the > Headmasters office came with Dumbledore and are his personal > belongings. This could include Godric Gryffindors sword among other > things. > > I like the DD as "heir of Gryffindor" analysis and definitely think the idea that one becomes the "heir of Gryffindor" because of what one DOES rather than what one IS is very fitting with the theme of the books, esp. CoS. I think the fact that DD sent James and Lily to live in Godric's Hollow fits in with this theory, too. (I know we don't know explicitly that he sent them there, but I imagine that he did. He must have been involved in helping them hide from Voldemort.) I'm interested in what you say about the sword, though. I always assumed it materialized out the hat from the past because Harry needed it in the CoS. Does everyone think that DD had it before that? (or does everyone in fact KNOW that, and I just missed it somehow, wouldn't be the first time!) :) Marny From juli17 at aol.com Wed Jul 7 02:17:24 2004 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 22:17:24 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Diary!Tom Not So Separate From Voldemort Message-ID: <1ed.24c9875e.2e1cb734@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104771 Entropy wrote: > > >I just noticed this seemingly innocent bit on JKRowling.com, and I > >think it deserves a second look. It's in the FAQ section, and goes > >like this: > > > >Q: "In 'Chamber of Secrets' , what would have happened if Ginny > had > >died and Tom Riddle had escaped the diary?" > > > >A: "I can't answer that fully until all seven books are finished, > >but it would have strengthened the present day Voldemort > considerably." > > > >This struck me, particularly after reading several recent posts > here > >about things such as the prophecy possibly referring to three > people > >(Tom Riddle, Harry and Voldemort). I think JKR has given us a > hint > >regarding the connection between Diary!Tom and Voldemort. Lots of > us > >have come to see Diary!Tom as an entity separate from Voldemort, a > >seed planted long ago by Voldemort which has grown, with the > unwitting > >help of Ginny, to an independent self. > > > >But this answer suggests to me that what happens to Diary!Tom > happens > >to Voldemort. It suggests that they are one (in essence divided, > >perhaps? Ack!, don't get me started....) > > My first thought was this: Did 16 y.o. Tom Riddle choose to > sacrifice something in his search for immortality, something > preserved in his 16 y.o. Diary self? Some power perhaps, some 'deal' > he made that he secretly reneged on by creating the diary and > putting the power into Diary!Tom? Jen wrote: > > I read this the opposite way though, Entropy! I think this gives > weight to the idea TR was a seperate person who was finally > extinguished when Harry killed Diary!Tom. And that makes me think > it's plausible for Tom Riddle to be the HBP, and he renounced > something about his origins to evolve into Voldemort. > > Jen Reese > > P.S.there's also a new FAQ about why the MOM couldn't send Sirius an > owl and follow it to chase him down. > > > my comment: I just finished re-reading Chamber of Secrets. After Harry kills Diary!Tom and is in Dumbledore's office with Ginny and the others, Dumbledore says that he wondered how Voldemort managed to enchant Ginny when his sources told him Voldemort "*is* currently in hiding in the forests of Albania." (My emphasis on the word *is*). Dumbledore then explains to Mrs. Weasley about Tom Riddle, the student who eventually became Voldemort. So Voldemort of the present, the entity who hitched a ride on the back of Quirrell's head, is in Albania as events unfold in Chamber of Secrets, while Tom Riddle, the entity preserved in the diary, is at Hogwarts trying to regain his corporeal form by sucking the life force out of Ginny. This seems to me pretty conclusive proof that, no matter how they are connected, Voldemort and Tom Riddle are in fact two separate entities. Which does make me wonder what JKR meant by saying Voldemort would have been strengthened considerably by Ginny's death. Does it mean Tom would have merged with his older "self," providing the present day Voldemort with a youthful body again? I think it also means that *if* Tom Riddle shows up again in some form (maybe he hid some other object besides the diary on Hogwart grounds), he will not be Voldemort, because Voldemort now exists separately from Tom Riddle. In which case JKR's comment that Voldemort is not the Half Blood Prince does not rule out Tom Riddle, since he exists separately. In fact, it seems like the exact kind of word game JKR enjoys ;-) I don't know if Tom Riddle will be the Half Blood Prince, or if he will be part of the prophecy, but if Tom Riddle has a part to play, I do think it will be one separate from Voldemort's part. And, as I recall, JKR has said we will see more of Tom Riddle, hasn't she? Juli [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From smartone56441070 at aol.com Wed Jul 7 02:55:43 2004 From: smartone56441070 at aol.com (smartone564) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 02:55:43 -0000 Subject: Prophecy Re: Fear and Valour (Long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104772 AmanitaMuscaria wrote: > So in effect 'neither can win whilst the other survives', but > that's what life is. Just a short post, and I am sure this has been discussed before, BUT..... how can neither live while the other survives, if both are alive now? That never flowed well with me. A few answers could be: Survives means there must be an encounter (but there have been many....) HP/LV are connected, and will be separated later (but not much solid canon, though plausible) Neville is involved (but that doesnt really clear anything up) Smart, who would appreciate it if he was sent a link to a past thread if this has been debated before, since he has limited time online, and internet provider can barely support this window. From mietoesarepink at comcast.net Wed Jul 7 02:50:05 2004 From: mietoesarepink at comcast.net (Maren Gest) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 20:50:05 -0600 Subject: Dumbledore to be trusted? Message-ID: <001201c463cd$1bc09d30$6401a8c0@C3P0> No: HPFGUIDX 104773 Has anyone else noticed that Dumbledore seems to never be around when somethings happening with Harry and Voldemort (The first book he was called away on importaint duties, the second the govenors sent him away, and the fourth he wasn't there for the graveyeard part) The 5th book is the only one with Voldemort in it that Dumbledore was there to help, but it wasn't until he very end did he intervine. I think its possible that Dumbledore is not really as good as we think he is. Also how is it possible for Dumbledore not to catch that Pro. Moody in book four is not the real Moody? Even in the Penisive Dumbledore seems to be some what friends with the old man, and they have known each other for a long time. Mr.Weasley even says Dumbledore never miss' a trick, so how is it possible that he wasn't able to tell a good friend was an imposter, Fake Moody couldn't have been that good of an imposter?! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From smartone56441070 at aol.com Wed Jul 7 03:11:05 2004 From: smartone56441070 at aol.com (smartone564) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 03:11:05 -0000 Subject: Prophecy Re: Fear and Valour (Long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104774 AmanitaMuscaria wrote: > So in effect 'neither can win whilst the other survives', but > that's what life is. Just a short post, and I am sure this has been discussed before, BUT..... how can neither live while the other survives, if both are alive now? That never flowed well with me. A few answers could be: Survives means there must be an encounter (but there have been many....) HP/LV are connected, and will be separated later (but not much solid canon, though plausible) Neville is involved (but that doesnt really clear anything up) Smart, who would appreciate it if he was sent a link to a past thread if this has been debated before, since he has limited time online, and internet provider can barely support this window. From aandj at labyrinth.net.au Wed Jul 7 03:18:30 2004 From: aandj at labyrinth.net.au (Jocelyn Grunow) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 14:18:30 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CoS clues to Books 6 & 7 analysis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104775 on 7/7/2004 11:17 AM, justcarol67 at justcarol67 at yahoo.com wrote: > If you're a pureblood and your courage > exceeds your cunning, you go to Gryffindor just as a half-blood or > Muggleborn would. If your cunning and ambition exceed your courage, > you go to Slytherin. Which brings me to Percy Weasley. Is he ambitious > but not cunning? Does he have courage that we haven't yet seen? Did > the Sorting Hat, which professes to have never been wrong, make a > mistake in placing him? Well Percy is standing up to his entire family, whom he loves very much. That takes courage. He is being a total idiot - but it isn't the easy road. The easy road would be to drift off and make excuses for never seeing them; to throw his jumper in the rubbish bin quietly. Does he have the courage to admit that he was wrong? Roll on Book 6! Jocelyn From smartone56441070 at aol.com Wed Jul 7 03:40:04 2004 From: smartone56441070 at aol.com (smartone564) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 03:40:04 -0000 Subject: Will Harry Die? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104776 Celestia wrote: > I too have wondered if > Harry will die in the end, and I keep coming back to the same > conclusion, that this book series is targeted to 9-12 year olds > and it would be too tragic to this age group to kill Harry off in the > end. The problem with that is, from right after book 1, JKR told parents that darker things were coming, and that it is really written for herself. The fact that children liked the first book is because it was all nice and happy, with a rather simple conclusion (touch him, faint, its over) although there were other, suspenseful parts. Really, my opinion is that to read the book, you should be as mature as the characters, i.e. as old as them. Though I am fully aware that maturity is only roughly based on age (Sirius debates come to mind) this is my standard as how to treat each book. Therefore, by book 7, the characters will be of age, and full adults by WW standards, if just under RL-USA standards. In summary, this isn't written for children, and can have some ending that all adults might not even understand, though the outcry and confusion as a result of this.... I think it will be simpler than that. Smart From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 04:09:17 2004 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 04:09:17 -0000 Subject: Luna is very strange, was The Prophecy: Harry's interpretation and reaction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104777 Alora: > I do like Luna, and I, too, think she has a very spiritual take on > things. But, why is her character so....odd? I don't get why she > has to be someone that people giggle at or make fun of. I mean, JKR > could have done that same thing with the character without making > her look like a fool that believes crazy things. > > All I know is that I will go mad if she and Harry end up together. > Not that Harry needs to end up with any girl, but NOT THAT ONE. Katie: I'm absolutely glad that JKR has made Luna someone that people giggle at and make fun of. People aren't just cruel to those like Snape; frequently children will exclude someone just because she/he is different from them. (Yes, I'm a bit sensitive about this, can you tell? :) Also, in my experience, people who are seen as "odd" and out of touch with reality are frequently the wisest. Sorry for using examples from my own life, but a friend of mine who remarkably resembles a grown-up Luna is probably the wisest and most mature person I know. Katie who would dearly love to see Harry pay some attention to Luna and not Pretty!Popular!Cho. From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 04:13:28 2004 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 04:13:28 -0000 Subject: Return from the Underworld in Greek Mythology (Re: Sirius Black Poll) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104778 Ally: > In Greek Mythology, the faithful dog Sirius appears by his master's > side in the heavens (both as constellations) after his master is > killed. I think Harry may still see Sirius - maybe in the mirror he > gave him or in some other magical device. Perhaps he will see Sirius > with his parents somewhere? Katie: So, would you maybe say that James is Sirius's Orion? I really like that analogy and think it makes a lot of sense. If Sirius really IS dead and staying dead, I hope he's with James and Lily somewhere. -Katie From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 04:18:42 2004 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 04:18:42 -0000 Subject: Pity for Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104779 > Alla: > I am wondering what would make me pity Tom. Because right now I > cannot think of him as anybody else, but very pathetic maniacal > murderer. But the word "pathetic" implies "pitiable"! Katie who is confused From garyfredogal at hotmail.com Wed Jul 7 04:29:12 2004 From: garyfredogal at hotmail.com (garyfredogal at hotmail.com) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 04:29:12 -0000 Subject: The FAQ says "Lily first" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104780 > Geoff: > Hang about, you're still not right unless you haven't expressed your > thought clearly. If Lily died before James, James would emerge from > the wand /first/. That doesn't seem to be the drift of your > comment.... Tina: Priori Incantatem (US Version GoF): Wormtail's Hand Cedric The Old Man Bertha Lily James Now with that list we see that Lily comes out of Voldemort's wand before James. That would mean that Lily died after James not the other way around. Now, like I said in my previous post and what you didn't understand, is that I disagree with the Lily died first theory not the Lily comes out of the wand first theory, because it states in both PS/SS that she did not die first and the order by which she and James came out of the wand in GoF backs up the paragraph in SS/PS. Is it clearer to you now? If not, then I don't know what to tell you. From jlawlor at gmail.com Wed Jul 7 06:25:19 2004 From: jlawlor at gmail.com (James Lawlor) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 01:25:19 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: re:Absolutist/Boggart&Patronus/HappyMarriage/Floo$/Ev... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96773c880407062325404a0114@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104781 On Wed, 7 Jul 2004 01:35:05 EDT, meliss9900 at aol.com wrote: > Depends on what you are using to qualify a happy memory. Sirius nearly > getting his soul sucked out might be a happy memory for Snape but it certainly > wouldn't be for Harry. While Snape hanging upside down showing his skivvies might > have been Sirius' happy thought (Or possibly Lupin's). > > Melissa Not to mention that the Patronus Charm doesn't require a memory, per say, but a happy thought (*Peter Pan flashback!*), which you did touch upon. If I recall correctly, Harry's first attempts at conjuring a Patronus weren't successful using strict memories, and during the OWL exams he focused on the thought of Umbridge getting sacked (which, I'm sure, could make *anyone* produce a Patronus). On a somewhat related not that I think I saw brought up in another thread regarding Snape's Worst Memory - I don't think that was necessarily his worst memory at all. Certainly, from what Harry knows of Snapes memories it would be the worst, but what else could have been floating around in the Pensieve? I expect he has some particularly nasty memories involving Voldemort and the Death Eaters. Clearly none of the DEs have a pleasant time of things, evident from Snape's "convulsively" clutching his forearm and Karkaroff's obvious terror at the Dark Mark becoming more clear. - James Lawlor jlawlor at gmail.com From smartone56441070 at aol.com Wed Jul 7 05:20:14 2004 From: smartone56441070 at aol.com (smartone564) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 05:20:14 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104782 Kneasy wrote: > The money - didn't JKR say that he'd inherited it? Or has my memory > gone wonky again? I believe that if you consult you QTA book, this might be solved. Near the beginning, when discussing the evolution of Quidditch, but particularly the Sndiget to Snitch transition, someone (cannot remember his name) is described as INVENTING the Golden Snitch, and that his papers were with a PRIVATE COLLECTOR (whereas every other important/referenced document was at the Museum of Quidditch or w/e its called). Initially, I thought nothing of this, as you probably do right now. However, this person lived/worked at GODRIC'S HOLLOW, and it seems to me that DD has quite a number of valuable possessions (like JAMES's cloak). I believe someone could amasse a fortune with the WW patent on the Snitch, as it is a most popular game, and the Snitch being an important part. > Sirius suggested (or said he did) that Peter become SK, though why > James and Lily went along with it is a mystery. Uh..... true, it's a mystery. But if we can trust Sirius, then it was a logical plan. > But GH and the cloak, especially the cloak. Why give it to DD? It seems > to be an eminently useful piece of kit to have around if you think that > you're going to be attacked. Presumably it was handed over before they > went into hiding - why? Well, IMO invisibility cloaks are rare since the OotP seems to have two, both of the Moody's (who had to use his backup when the member [what was his name?!? argh] got caught with Moody's other). This seems like a rare item, and how useful can a cloak be when a similar effect is already on you? Canon: could be looking in their window and never see them (but I am lazy, so I don't know who said this, nor when, but I believe it was in OotP). Smart, who hopes he hasn't screwed up like with the otter/beaver thing.... From jlawlor at gmail.com Wed Jul 7 06:34:17 2004 From: jlawlor at gmail.com (James Lawlor) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 01:34:17 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Gal..."s and Galleons o' fun. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96773c8804070623343de92456@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104783 > >Lisa: > > Anyone have any theories on how Lily & James made their > > money? > > Gielreta: > > I don't remember reading about any other > anti-Voldie people being protected with Fidelius charms... Perhaps > Lily and James's bloodline (including Harry) is the guardian of a > secret treasure hoard > [Order of the Phoenix spoilers] Wasn't it mentioned somewhere that the Potters (meaning James's parents) were more or less independantly wealthy? At any rate, it would make sense for the Potters to have been protected by the Fidelus Charm as Harry was one of the possible targets of the Prophecy - it's not hard to imagine that Neville was given the same protection. Or perhaps Dumbledore figured that Voldemort might go after the half-blood, like himself, instead of the full-blooded Neville and put extra protection on the Potters. - James Lawlor jlawlor at gmail.com From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 06:31:42 2004 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 06:31:42 -0000 Subject: Ringdear of the Marauders: Sirius or James? (was Kreacher the Murderer) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104784 Bren: > It struck me odd though, when I was reading all the posts re: Animagi > and what it means. How Stag is the alpha-male dear and Dog is a > faithful, dead loyal (literally) and best-friend. But why though? > What makes James more 'alpha-male' than Sirius? [snip] > So how is it that JAmes is thought to be the leader of the Marauders? > By default of reckless teenage Alpha-male standards, shouldn't Sirius > be the "Man of Men", James the "best friend of the coolest guy", > Lupin the "model student" and Peter well, Wormtail? Katie: I think that Sirius and James probably had an equal share in their escapades. Why is James generally considered the leader? Because Sirius WORSHIPS James. I think Sirius is extremely rebellious, but would do anything James told him to (there's a line to the same effect in the Pensieve scene about James, as well). And I agree with your comments about the situation being different after James's death. In a previous post, Demetra said that "Sirius dismisses Peter with a rather cruel comment about Wormtail wetting himself." I read that comment as jealous and petty, not cruel. Please don't flame me, people, but, put simply, I'd say that Sirius had a crush on James. Sirius becomes "the buddy" rather than "the alpha-male" because he's obviously devoted to James, while James is much more interested in other things (i.e., Lily). -Katie trying so hard to keep this from becoming a SHIP post From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Jul 7 10:39:18 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 10:39:18 -0000 Subject: Pity for Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104785 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > I don't want her to go there, but unfortunately I am the last person > she would ask advice from. :o) > But with her latest answers - "I don't believe that anybody is born > evil, we will find out more about Tom, etc." (paraphrase) > I am afraid that is exactly where she is going. > > Now, if she will make me pity Tom, I would think that she is not just > a very good writer, I would think that she is a genius. > > I am wondering what would make me pity Tom. Because right now I > cannot think of him as anybody else, but very pathetic maniacal > murderer. > > I suppose I have to see him doing some good, noble deeds. Ha! No, > talking more about his bad childhood is not enough for me. It's an obvious truth that no-one is born evil (or at least outside the horror genre), but in RL and fiction there's a mulitude who become evil. How many of those repent and eschew their wicked ways? Some, but not too many. Why they become evil is open to debate; in RL many search for for influences during childhood and it's fair to say that there are examples where these have had an effect or may even be the sole cause. But there are others, just as badly treated or worse, where there is not a progression on to extreme anti-social behaviour. Transferring this pattern onto fictional characters can be a problem and can be the cause of all sorts of disagreements. Most of us are aware of RL examples that we can draw on, but is imprinting these onto HP characters valid? Or is JKR allowing us dig a pit for our own feet by us carrying our RL experiences into her constructed world where they may not apply? Harry, Neville, Tom, Sirius. All are presented as having unhappy childhoods. So far(!) one is evil, one suspected by some of being ESE and two seem to have overcome it. What does that tell us? Not much evidence of straight-line cause and effect there. Tom's case is the most interesting of the three. He spent his formative years in an orphanage. He was not happy there, which is understandable but not an inevitability. What seems to drive him is hate - hatred of a father he never met. This seems to have expanded into hatred for all Muggles and Mudbloods. He wants 'revenge' for what he perceives as the wrongs done to him and to exact that revenge he has to have power. Hey Presto! - Voldy! IMO Voldy isn't the inevitable outcome of Tom's childhood but a choice, a means to an end. It's one of the choices that DD keeps whittering on about. Tom has chosen his path (with maybe a little help from a nasty entity that lurked in the Chamber, if my 'Possession Theory' stands up). If it is a choice, then pity from the reader would be inappropriate. We can Boo! and Hiss! and dream dreams of his satisfyingly traumatic come-uppance with a clear conscience. JKR may thwart us of course. Tom may make a new choice. Hope not. I always feel a bit cheated when the baddy revises his options, joins The Band of Hope and is forgiven for past atrocities. The atrocities happened, didn't they? They were carried out by choice, weren't they? Fine; then it's the chopping block for you, my lad. Just punishment and social retribution; nothing wrong with it so far as I'm concerned. Saying "Sorry" doesn't hack it. Repentance is an optional extra, not an alternative. Kneasy who *hates* fluffy endings From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jul 7 11:04:59 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 11:04:59 -0000 Subject: Question re "Mark Evans" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104787 wrote: > I am puzzled at frequent references to 10-year-old Mark Evans as a relative > of Harry's. snip > Evans is a common name - is there any reason why he has to be related? > Potioncat: You're right. Mark Evans has generated tons of posts, but this week JKR told us....he is not a relative of Harry's. He's just another Evans. And he had such potential! I wonder if Mark Evans will join Marcus Flint as a term used by HP fans? We'll see posts that say something like "I think that's a Mark Evans" for something small that seems important but isn't. Potioncat From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Jul 7 11:08:19 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 11:08:19 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104788 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "smartone564" wrote: > Kneasy wrote: > > > The money - didn't JKR say that he'd inherited it? Or has my > memory > > gone wonky again? > > I believe that if you consult you QTA book, this might be solved. > Near the beginning, when discussing the evolution of Quidditch, > but particularly the Sndiget to Snitch transition, someone (cannot > remember his name) is described as INVENTING the Golden > Snitch, and that his papers were with a PRIVATE COLLECTOR > (whereas every other important/referenced document was at the > Museum of Quidditch or w/e its called). Initially, I thought nothing > of this, as you probably do right now. However, this person > lived/worked at GODRIC'S HOLLOW, and it seems to me that DD > has quite a number of valuable possessions (like JAMES's > cloak). I believe someone could amasse a fortune with the WW > patent on the Snitch, as it is a most popular game, and the > Snitch being an important part. > Kneasy: It was Bowman Wright. But I think it'd be difficult to make much of a living off the patent, how many GSs are used in a year? And aren't they re-usable? Anyway, I found the reference that I was looking for: 19th Oct 2000 AOL chat with JKR. Q: What did James and Lily do when alive? A: Well, I can't go into too much detail [...] But James inherited plenty of money so he didn't need a well-paid profession. He was loaded; and since JKR has also said that we'll only learn a little bit more about his parents there's a chance we'll never learn how the money was originally accumulated. > Smart: > Well, IMO invisibility cloaks are rare since the OotP seems to > have two, both of the Moody's (who had to use his backup when > the member [what was his name?!? argh] got caught with > Moody's other). This seems like a rare item, and how useful can > a cloak be when a similar effect is already on you? Canon: could > be looking in their window and never see them (but I am lazy, so > I don't know who said this, nor when, but I believe it was in OotP). > Kneasy: It's the house, the address that's made 'invisible' - which is OK if you happen to stay inside it. But if you ever want to step outside, an Invisibility Cloak would be damn useful, don't you think? From mietoesarepink at comcast.net Tue Jul 6 23:07:35 2004 From: mietoesarepink at comcast.net (Maren Gest) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 17:07:35 -0600 Subject: Dumbledore evil?? References: <012f01c463ab$986dd9f0$295b253e@takun> Message-ID: <000901c463ae$06cbdee0$6401a8c0@C3P0> No: HPFGUIDX 104789 Has anyone else noticed that Dumbledore seems to never be around when somethings happening with Harry and Voldemort (The first book he was called away on importaint duties, the second the govenors sent him away, and the fourth he wasn't there for the graveyeard part) The 5th book is the only one with Voldemort in it that Dumbledore was there to help, but it wasn't until he very end did he intervine. I think its possible that Dumbledore is not really as good as we think he is. Also how is it possible for Dumbledore not to catch that Pro. Moody in book four is not the real Moody? Even in the Penisive Dumbledore seems to be some what friends with the old man, and they have known each other for a long time. Mr.Weasley even says Dumbledore never miss' a trick, so how is it possible that he wasn't able to tell a good friend was an imposter, Fake Moody couldn't have been that good of an imposter?! From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 04:35:07 2004 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 04:35:07 -0000 Subject: The Prophecy: Harry's interpretation and reaction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104790 Vivian: > Luna seems to be a very spiritually oriented person--and Harry really > needs a friend like her. There are going to be more deaths in book > 6/7 and a little spirituality can go a long way to ease the pain. > Luna's dialog is a metaphor for how Harry is always losing the people > he loves. Telling Harry that he will someday see Sirius again was the > right thing for her to say to make Harry feel better. She is very > intuitive don't you think? Katie: Oh, I LOVE that dialogue! I put the last line down as my favorite HP line, btw :) I think what's incredible about Luna (among other things) is, as you say, her spirituality and the depth of her belief. She has a confidence and wisdom that I think even the most intelligent adults in HP can rarely even reach. I don't think it's coincidental that her name (leaving aside her wretched surname for the moment) is representative of that which is intuitive, spiritual, mysterious, and generally known as "feminine", things which I think Harry is often lacking in his life. I'd trust her over anyone else as a guide for Harry. (I *don't* think Dumbledore is nearly as wise as we're often told he is, but that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish...) Katie who hopes this post doesn't qualify as a "me too" reply From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jul 7 11:14:04 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 11:14:04 -0000 Subject: Snape Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104791 > Sue: > > Or which would you rather have as a teacher? (g) Well, Fake! Moody was > actually quite a good teacher, whatever reason he was doing it. Pity about the > DE background. He could have taught at Durmstrang, anyway. The > quesation, now, is - will the real Moody be a good teacher if he ever does it? > I'm not sure he will. > > Which is, of course, off-topic, sorry about that. > > I suspect Snape is the sort of teacher of whom you'd later say, "I didn't like > him, but I sure learned my chemistry/Potions/whatever." Potioncat: I'd rather have a teacher "like" Crouch than "like" Snape. Crouch was tough too. But I'd rather have Snape than Crouch. I'm not trying to defend Snape here...I'm rather trying to say, look at this horrible person, who has made himself seem good, who has the student body eating out of his hand. I'll bet he could have turned a few to LV's side with just a bit of patient direction. I wonder what it was that made Barty Jr join LV? And I wonder which House he was in? I'd like to know which House Crouch Sr. belonged to as well. From ekrbdg at msn.com Wed Jul 7 11:27:41 2004 From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 07:27:41 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore evil?? References: <012f01c463ab$986dd9f0$295b253e@takun> <000901c463ae$06cbdee0$6401a8c0@C3P0> Message-ID: <059f01c46415$6bb2fe80$e0e0f943@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 104792 Has anyone else noticed that Dumbledore seems to never be around when somethings happening with Harry and Voldemort (The first book he was called away on importaint duties, the second the govenors sent him away, and the fourth he wasn't there for the graveyeard part) The 5th book is the only one with Voldemort in it that Dumbledore was there to help, but it wasn't until he very end did he intervine. I think its possible that Dumbledore is not really as good as we think he is. Also how is it possible for Dumbledore not to catch that Pro. Moody in book four is not the real Moody? Even in the Penisive Dumbledore seems to be some what friends with the old man, and they have known each other for a long time. Mr.Weasley even says Dumbledore never miss' a trick, so how is it possible that he wasn't able to tell a good friend was an imposter, Fake Moody couldn't have been that good of an imposter?! *Kimberly's comments* I'll admit that there are things that happen that make me wonder why or how Dumbledore didn't know ahead of time. But, in each of these instances I feel like there was just cause for him not being there (he got called away and then immediately KNEW something was wrong and returned, the Graveyard- I'm not sure what or how he could have had any idea about that really) As for Moody, yes, I always wondered how he didn't know about Fake Moody. I think it's not to be taken lightly that in OotP DD came face to face with Voldemort. I think little by little, book by book we see it becoming more and more inevitable that the final battle that happens at the end, has to happen at the end. My thinking is that if Dumbledore and Voldemort had a go at it now, then what ? Either DD will win and then Voldemort is no more or Voldemort wins and there goes DD, Harry, etc. Not only that, we still have the prophecy (and two more books) the consider. I think JKR has deliberately kept DD from "saving the day" so to speak because it lends itself the not just that battle at hand, but the final battle and crux of the story. Just my thoughts on that... Kimberly --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.710 / Virus Database: 466 - Release Date: 6/24/2004 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tubadave at normalview.com Wed Jul 7 07:18:44 2004 From: tubadave at normalview.com (Big D) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 07:18:44 -0000 Subject: Mark Evans Is....NOBODY! (From JKR's Site) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104793 Entropy told us: > Well, it's official! Mark Evans is nobody important at all. > Check out all of the details at JKRowling.com. Sorry, guys. And I respond with: Finally! I got something right! The endless speculation around Mark Evans was really amusing to me, as I had never given his name a second thought until I read all the rumors here, but was still convinced that he was no one of importance. I'll enjoy being right this once, though I am humbly reminded that my record for correct HP predictions to date is about 1-23058239261805, so... Kudos to JKR for the absolutely hilarious response to the whole thing. Pandrea then said: > However, in the funny explanation JK gives for this, there is one > interesting point, where she talks about the theories that he was > the HBP, Harry's great aunt and the HEIR of GRYFFINDOR. Now, the > last one is a common theory, either that Harry is the H of G or > someone else is who may or may not also be the HBP. But the way > she includes it in that list, to me implies that she's classing it > with stuff that will not turn out to be included in the books. I > now feel it is less likely that there will ever be a H of G. And then I say: Much like those who read too much into the last name "Evans", I wouldn't read too much into this either. It's certainly possible, but I'm not ready to give up my Harry-is-Heir-of-Gryffindor and Godric-Gryffindor-is-HBP theories just yet. I'm shooting for two correct predictions, woohoo! Big D From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Wed Jul 7 08:36:15 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 7 Jul 2004 08:36:15 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Riddle and Snape Message-ID: <20040707083615.5189.qmail@webmail6.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104794 > > Entropy: > I just noticed this seemingly innocent bit on JKRowling.com, and I > think it deserves a second look. It's in the FAQ section, and goes > like this: > > Q: "In 'Chamber of Secrets' , what would have happened if Ginny had > died and Tom Riddle had escaped the diary?" > > A: "I can't answer that fully until all seven books are finished, > but it would have strengthened the present day Voldemort considerably." > Amey: Remember when TR meets harry in CoS, he says he is more interested in Harry than "mudbloods" (Sorry not exact words)? He asks Harry how a small boy like him was successful against the "greatest wizard" twice? Is this just arrogance? This somehow points me to the fact that TR diary shadow maintained some concious of the real LV (just like photographs, not potraits). So if he could somehow gain body, he would go in search of his spirit (or whatever remained after curse) and merge with it again. Yes a new body, just 16 yr old, with all the powers restored... definitely stronger than present day LV in spirit form. And the way they met in CoS, I don't think by that time TR was such a good boy that he was much distingushable from LV, at least not in his nature. > > ccahallebro > > By this stage he clearly wasnt at the heart of the Death Eaters, > > because he didnt know that Pettigrew, not Sirius, was the leak. I > > suspect that Snape giving that information was the point at which he > > effectively broke his cover - Voldemort knows there is one he > > has 'lost forever' of his old servants (OotP)- why put it in the text > > if its not a named charachter, and the one person it applies to is > > Snape? Amey: If this is the case, Snape would have died teh moment he contacted DEs again. That hasn't happened. So LV does not know as yet that he is a spy, he just thinks Snape ran away from him like the rest of the pack. I personally think the bit about one who is lost forver (the word is lost, not left) is somebody else, haven't we heard of any DE killed in battle with Aurors? Amey, signing off PS. List Elves are going to kill me for this, but still I will take the chance. Has anybody has more than 4 things in scrapbook in JKR's site? Just answer is enough, how many and where I won't ask. ELF NOTE: Please send any replies regarding JKR's scrapbook to Amey offlist. Thanks! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jul 7 11:34:57 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 11:34:57 -0000 Subject: Snape Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104795 Cathy wrote: > > >Is that also the reason Snape has been at the school for 14 > years...to protect him in some way? I don't know. Pandrea wrote: > I definitely think the 14 years is not a coincidence. It's too neat > that he started teaching then, presumably at the start of the school > year therefore only a few weeks after Harry's parents were killed. > It may just be that he had nowhere else to go so DD took him in. > Potioncat: I think Snape is there for three reasons: His own protection, to fight LV, and to protect/teach Harry. He may have started teaching in Sep, not long before the Potters were killed. In that case he must still have appeared to be an active DE in LV's eyes. OR, he may have started teaching after the Potters were killed. DD knew LV would be coming back and may have had Snape come on board then. Just as other "former DEs" made their way back into the MoM. Potioncat From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Jul 7 11:37:45 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 11:37:45 -0000 Subject: The FAQ says "Lily first" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104796 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, garyfredogal at h... wrote: > > Geoff: > > Hang about, you're still not right unless you haven't expressed > your > > thought clearly. If Lily died before James, James would emerge > from > > the wand /first/. That doesn't seem to be the drift of your > > comment.... > > Tina: > > Priori Incantatem (US Version GoF): > > Wormtail's Hand > Cedric > The Old Man > Bertha > Lily > James > > Now with that list we see that Lily comes out of Voldemort's wand > before James. That would mean that Lily died after James not the > other way around. > > Now, like I said in my previous post and what you didn't understand, > is that I disagree with the Lily died first theory not the Lily > comes out of the wand first theory, because it states in both PS/SS > that she did not die first and the order by which she and James came > out of the wand in GoF backs up the paragraph in SS/PS. > > Is it clearer to you now? If not, then I don't know what to tell you. Geoff: I have already referred to the following quote from canon: 'The evil face was now smiling. "How touching..."it hissed. "I always value bravery...Yes, boy, your parents were brave... I killed your father first, and he put up a courageous fight... but your mother needn't have died... she was trying to protect you... Now give me the Stone unless you want her to have died in vain."' (PS "The Man with Two Faces" p.213 UK edition) Therefore, I have subscribed to the "James died last" theory all the time. The list you quote from is the modified version of GOF after it was acknowledged that there was a Flint and the original did not correlate with Voldemort's statement in PS. With respect, it doesn't need to be clearer to me because the sequence of events is quite logical. However, what you said in message 104635 was: "No, I am objecting to the posts that say that Lily *died* first, not that she came out of the wand first. Of course if she died before James she would arrive before James." If you read that carefully, you appear to be saying that if Lily died before James, she would arrive (out of the wand) before James which would not be the correct order for the Priori Incantatem as you have then shown in your later message. I think that we are in agreement but, as I said earlier, your first statement didn't make that totally clear. From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 11:38:12 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 11:38:12 -0000 Subject: The FAQ says "Lily first" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104797 Tina: Priori Incantatem (US Version GoF): Wormtail's Hand Cedric The Old Man Bertha Lily James Now with that list we see that Lily comes out of Voldemort's wand before James. That would mean that Lily died after James not the other way around. Now, like I said in my previous post and what you didn't understand, is that I disagree with the Lily died first theory not the Lily comes out of the wand first theory, because it states in both PS/SS that she did not die first and the order by which she and James came out of the wand in GoF backs up the paragraph in SS/PS. Is it clearer to you now? If not, then I don't know what to tell you. vmonte responds: Have you read all the previous posts regarding who died first? The reason we were all talking about Lily dying before James was because JKR had a typo on her website. For a period of 24 hours she had incorrect info on her website. She reversed the order of James and Lily's death. When she realized that she made a typo she quietly corrected it. That is when we stopped theorizing about what could have happened at Godric's Hollow. There are several posts explaining what happened, but here is one of mine # 104244. vivian From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 04:40:43 2004 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 04:40:43 -0000 Subject: If Mark Evans is nobody who is Megan Jones? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104798 Arya: > Don't forget Gwenog Jones, the captain of the Holyhead Harpies and > recently featured Witch of the Month on Jo's website. I also noted, > that just like Hestia, Gwenog was depicted as black. Coicidence? > Relation? Same last name, similar racial description... Katie: I can't speak for the UK, but I know the surname "Jones" is quite common in the US, particularly for black Americans. From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Wed Jul 7 12:08:28 2004 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 12:08:28 -0000 Subject: I'm disappointed... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104799 HPFGU is losing its edge here. I typed 'kettle' into the search field, expecting to find a whole raft of posts detailing ever more elaborate theories, many of them expressed in TBAY style. Guys, we have *new canon* here. Grist to our mill. Fish for our kettle. Mystery for our mystics. I am referring, of course, to JKR's latest revelation on her website that a key element of Book 7 will be the 'Mystic Kettle of Nackledirk'. So, c'mon, sharpen your quills and get your brains - especially those you keep where no-one can see - in gear. What is this device? What does it do? Is there a connection with the kettle Lupin uses to brew tea for Harry in PoA? Why is Nackledirk *never mentioned* in Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them, a work not slow to describe the fauna of out-of-the-way spots? Could it be one of the devices in Dumbledore's office that Harry smashes at the end of OOP? Is Nackledirk an anagram? If we meet a character in Book 6 called Dalek Crink we'll all know what to expect, won't we? Does the Mystic Kettle stand near any Magic Dishwashers? Take it away! David From Lynx412 at AOL.com Wed Jul 7 12:20:43 2004 From: Lynx412 at AOL.com (Lynx412 at AOL.com) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 08:20:43 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Diary!Tom Not So Separate From Voldemort? Message-ID: <1d1.253bf963.2e1d449b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104800 In a message dated 7/6/2004 6:11:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, DaveH47 at mindspring.com writes: > My only problem is, what would this do to all the physically disfiguring > precautions he's taken since his school days to ensure that he'll "never" die? I think he intended the Diary as a backup for just such an occurrence. Maybe current LV would not have done so, but the diary was written when TR was 16...hm, timewise just before he killed his father? He produced the Diary in case his researches failed, then set out into the WW. Also, why did Lucius send the Diary to Hogwarts...perhaps the diary plan was formed during that dropped section between the Malfoys and the Notts. BTW, I wonder if the 'gift' of the Diary was originally intended for Harry. That would fit Dobby's comments about a plot against Harry and the attempt to keep Harry from getting to Hogwarts. If Harry never went and never got the Diary [or so Dobby might have reasoned] LV/TR would not be a threat. Lucius only gave the Diary to Ginny after the fight with Arthur. Did Lucius mess up LV's plans due to his hatred of Arthur? Further recommendation for the Diary being intended for Harry is LV's use of Harry's blood to resurrect himself. Perhaps Harry & LV are related, but not through Salazar. Perhaps TR sr had a sister who married an Evans. She'd have been Harry's grandmother or great grandmother, but the blood connection would be there. The Other Cheryl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From yutu75es at yahoo.es Wed Jul 7 12:24:03 2004 From: yutu75es at yahoo.es (fridwulfa hagrid) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 14:24:03 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Riddle and Snape References: <20040707083615.5189.qmail@webmail6.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: <002b01c4641d$4c9b93b0$cde26750@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 104801 > > Amey wrote: > Remember when TR meets harry in CoS, he says he is more interested in Harry than "mudbloods" (Sorry not exact words)? He asks Harry how a small boy like him was successful against the "greatest wizard" twice? Is this just arrogance? This somehow points me to the fact that TR diary shadow maintained some concious of the real LV (just like photographs, not potraits). Me (Fridwulfa): Tom Riddle knows everything about Harry because Ginny told him. Cheers, Fridwulfa From lszydlowski at hotmail.com Wed Jul 7 12:13:27 2004 From: lszydlowski at hotmail.com (szydlowskil) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 12:13:27 -0000 Subject: HBP Speculation Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104802 The only monarchy JKR has told us about is that of the Giants. In a sort of Narnian twist, we are seeing many of the magical creatures lining up against a meglomaniacal magic-wielder. We know Hagrid is half-giant, but we don't know an awful lot about his mother. Why would a wizard take up with a giant in the first place? Could it have been a marriage alliance between the wizards and a princess of giant royalty? Perhaps Dumbledore sent Hagrid on his mission because the giants might be more likely to listen to someone from their royal line...And besides, "Harry Potter and Hagrid" just sounds lame. Gerard, pondering the mystery From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Wed Jul 7 09:52:48 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 05:52:48 -0400 Subject: Harry Leaving Privet Drive Early (was Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 22 - St. Mungo's Hospital) Message-ID: <002e01c46408$29a85470$90c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 104803 Meri: "think that Harry will probably be taken from Privet Drive early (and for the last time, I don't think he'll be forced to go back once he's turned 17) because he'll be needed in the fight, as it were, or at least for his safety. Since the dementor attack in Order shows that other things can hurt Harry in Little Whinging, he is really vulnerable there, and with only Mrs. Figg to protect him he's gotta get out or someting bad's gonna happen." I'm glad you said this. Harry is obviously only protected when he is in the house - possibly the yard - of number four. He wasn't protected just around the corner (when the dementors attacked). Since the Dementors have joined LV, and there are the DE's and new one joining, being forced to join every day (presumably)...Harry is probably in the most danger he has ever been in...as far as leaving the house/yard is concerned. Cathy - who may have written more but a thunderstorm just rolled up. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jlawlor at gmail.com Wed Jul 7 06:53:47 2004 From: jlawlor at gmail.com (James Lawlor) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 01:53:47 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Think on This...... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96773c88040706235330b1ae7a@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104804 On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 23:38:03 -0000, Plinker wrote: > What does the group consider the three MOST IMPORTANT things to watch > for in the next book? This being based on what we have found in the > books published to date. If you think of more let it rip. Ooh, fun topic! ^^ Let me see... In no particular order: #1. Snape - We've gotten to know more and more about Snape as the series has progressed. At first we only know that he's a creepy, Slytherin-biased teacher that, while he seems to dislike Harry and be an archetypal villain, is actually working for the good guys. Now we know much more about him, with glimpses of his past and his motives. In the sixth book (or certainly by the seventh) I expect we'll be finding out what it was that he did to earn Dumbledore's trust, and the exact nature of his spying on Voldemort (and wether or not Voldemort knows of it). This is just an odd hunch, but it would not surprise me if in the end Snape did something seemingly out of character (beyond the "call of duty", such as countering Quirrel's Hurling Hex in SS/PS) to save Harry before all is said and done. #2 Fawkes - It could be I just like Fawkes, but I think he's going to have a very important role to play... Somehow. There has to be a lot of significance to the fact that Fawkes donated (I certainly don't imagine one could even try to take a Phoenix's tail feather without permission) two (and only two) the cores of Harry's and Voldemort's wands. Not only that, but (seemingly) the Order of the Phoenix is named for him, and as wonderfully silly Dumbledore can be, I can't see him naming the organization "The Order of the Phoenix" simply because he happens to have a pet phoenix which he is fond of. (And, of course, there's probably some significance to that too). #3 Mark Eva- .... Just kidding. Hm, I'm finding it hard to think of something that isn't blindingly obvious (The Halfblood Prince! The infamous Look of Triumph!) or that has already been mentioned by JKR (Lily, Harry's eyes, etc). Ok, well then... It's nothing amazing, but... #3 Neville - At the very least, he's becoming more powerful. His own wand will probably help, a bit, and his confidence is increasing quite a bit. He also has a lot of very powerful emotions tied up regarding his parents and their suffering at the hands of Voldemort and the Death Eaters - that has to count for something. And, of course, he's the Boy Who Could Have Been. - James Lawlor jlawlor at gmail.com From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Wed Jul 7 09:15:33 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 7 Jul 2004 09:15:33 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited--emotional maturity Message-ID: <20040707091533.32280.qmail@webmail9.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104805 ? SSusan: Absolutely. Mom of two little ones here, and this makes perfect sense. I think you're right, too, that we were/are INTENDED to think of Sirius as one of the good guys. And because there were good aspects to his character, I have continued to issue *tempered* or *qualified* "defenses" of him. I think there were many good THINGS about him, but the recent spate of posts pointing out his failings have really made me reconsider the overall Sirius. I didn't put as much weight on the "I'm bored. I wish it were a full moon" comment to Lupin as you did **but** the fact that he doesn't say "Sorry" or even "Oh, yeah" when Lupin darkly responds "YOU might" DOES say something about Sirius' essential nature. In these situations [and I'd add the goading-Harry-in-the-fireplace one to the prank & the pensieve scene], he's arrogant and full of himself; he thinks of what will bring HIM fun & pleasure, not what others need or want. Ally: Ah, but Sirius has his shortcomings as an adult, too, doesn't he? He says himself that you can tell a person by the way he behaves to those who are inferior to him and turns around and abuses his house elf. A cruel thing. He allows Snape's head to bang around when transporting him - a petty thing. Even as an adult, he makes no apologies for the "prank" despite the fact that it endangered Snape and Remus, another petty thing. He breaks the rules re: Grimmauld Place on a number of occasions - an arrogant and reckless thing. What Sirius has going for him is his love and devotion to Harry and James, but outside of that, I think he's more than a little boorish. He doesn't seem to have a lot of remorse for things he's done wrong, and doesn't seem to care much about the possible implications of his impetuousness. Despite having broken ties with his reputable pureblood family, he still seems like quite the elitist to me in OOTP. Amey: First question, was their friendship so formal that he needed to say sorry? And just for a simple comment? If I remember right, he said sorry to Lupin in Shack for believing him to be a spy. That was a much seriuos thing, and it needed some comment after 12 years. But I don't think Sirius was thinking of anything else except fun and adventure full moon brought. And of course Lupin didn't take it that seriously himself. (It's like Hermione saying she wished to see thestrals also. Gosh, that opens up another thread if it is a hint. Sorry to bring it up if it is FAQ). As for his shortcomings as adult, is he really a fully-grown normal adult? I mean, I don't want to post the whole thread of azkaban and others, so I will skip that part. As for allowing Snape's head to bang, Snape wasn't at all interested in hearing Sirius' defence in Shack, was he? Their rivalry is really bad. (Remember Harry and Draco, I doubt if they had done anything else in the position). I am not at all sure the Prank endangered Remus, I mean he was a werewolf then, so what the only danger was he being recognised as such. As for Snape, he is always taunting Sirius for being in the house, not risking his life etc. Is this not a petty thing? He fully understands the condition and still does the same thing, I agree with Harry somewhat, that this was one point which made Sirius come to DoM (of course along with love for Harry). Whatever DD says about Sirius not rising to taunts, it is a big factor. I am sure DD only said that to Harry because he didn't want harry and Sanpe's rivalry to grow more. Amey, a seroious defender of Sirius.... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From J.Z.Dench at uel.ac.uk Wed Jul 7 07:14:47 2004 From: J.Z.Dench at uel.ac.uk (Jospehine) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 07:14:47 -0000 Subject: Will Harry save Draco one day? In-Reply-To: <20040702112340.24093.qmail@web90004.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104806 pandrea100 wrote: Certainly, in fending off Voldemort, Harry has saved 'everyone' (you could argue), but what if there was a situation where Draco was in direct danger and Harry stepped in to save him? If such a thing happened, would Draco change his mind about Harry? Or would he, like Snape, just hate him even more? If in some ways Harry is in danger of repeating Sirius'/James' flaws, is Draco going the way of Snape? griffin782002: I believe it would be a nice twist in the plot. I re-read a couple of days ago The Philosopher's/Sorcerer's Stone. In the last chapter DD says that James once saved Snape's life. And we also learn that Harry had the impression that Snape could his mind. And we find out what Occlumency and Legilimency is in OotP. Can this be an indication about what is going to happen in the future? Josephine now: Perhaps what would be even more interesting, is if Harry is in the position of saving Draco, and chooses not to. I know this isn't exactly typical of Harry so far, but after what happened to Sirius at the hand of Lucius Malfoy and the Death Eaters, might it just be in him? Jo From aldhelm at earthlink.net Wed Jul 7 12:51:34 2004 From: aldhelm at earthlink.net (carin_in_oh) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 12:51:34 -0000 Subject: Harry and Achilles - prophecy, tragedy, and alternatives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104807 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > That was fun, Carin! I'm curious to hear your thoughts on the > subject. > > Jen R. I genuinely didn't have any theories. I've just been mulling - apropos of the prophecy discussion - the behavior of characters from literature who are the subject of prophecies, and was tossing out names. Since I had blithely tossed out Achilles' name, and since I was sitting in my office surrounded by mythological dictionaries (for the project I'm _supposed_ to be working on and am not, since I'm spending all my time on HPfGU instead :), I thought I'd just see if Achilles had been a stupid person to mention. When I looked him up, I found I'd completely forgotten about the Phoenix/Centaur thing and the mother's protection thing. I don't think the comparison goes very far, except, as you say, that we might contemplate the mother's protection having a weak spot. It could be the eyes, as you say, but maybe Harry's Achilles heel is his scar. It seems that way in the case of Sirius's death. I wouldn't advocate any particular mythological or literary model as the pattern for Harry's story, but I think it's instructive to look at the way characters under similar pressure of doom/responsibility have acted, and see how JKR plays with those options or opens up others. A few more thoughts about characters who live under prophecies: The classic Greek model is that the parents of the prophecied-one go to great lengths to protect the child (or themselves) from the fulfillment of the prophecy, which inevitably leads to the prophecy coming true and disaster compounding itself. Think Oedipus. Harry is an anti-type of this model if we see him from the perspective of his parents and protectors: he is preserved and hidden away by the one who has full knowledge of the prophecy _so that he will be able to fulfill it_, not so that he can avoid its fulfillment. Of course, from LV's point of view, the story is a little more orthodox: if LV were the protagonist in a Greek tragedy, he'd be well on his way to bringing about just what he was trying to avoid: with incomplete knowledge (like Oedipus, who learned that he was fated to kill his father but didn't know his own identity and so botched things up spectacularly), LV tried to preempt the working out of the prophecy and thereby strengthened his own nemesis. Dumbledore, as the only one who until now has had knowledge of the full prophecy, has been working to preserve the conditions for its fulfillment, in the sense that he has been working to preserve Harry. How that situation will change now that more people know or will soon know the prophecy is going to be interesting to watch. King Arthur/Merlin perhaps offers a closer parallel to Harry/DD: Merlin actually engineers the _conception_ of the boy who will be the prophecied leader of his people (I'm not saying DD did this...); Merlin places Arthur with a non-royal family to protect him and disguise his identity until he is ready to assume his rightful place. And here's the hopeful thing: when Arthur _does_ learn who he really is and that he has a prophecied role to step into, he rises to the occasion, spectacularly. Arthur _does_ bring peace and order to his people, and the bittersweet part of the whole story is that everyone involved knows that that respite from the assault of evil forces can only be temporary. I'm sure the Harry-Arthur parallels have been treated ad nauseam, so I won't go on and on, but I like to think that JKR's model of how a burdensome prophecy will affect its subject owes more to the romance model than the Greek-tragic model. Carin From pete_larkin at btinternet.com Wed Jul 7 12:46:11 2004 From: pete_larkin at btinternet.com (peter838169) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 12:46:11 -0000 Subject: Theory: Dumbledore to Teach Defence Against the Dark Arts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104808 Steve/asian_lovr2 wrote: > For the record- > > I think HARRY is the JINX on the DADA teaching position. The bad luck > began when he arrived, and when Harry is finally gone from school, the > bad luck on the job will go with him. Is that true? I'm sure I remember reading Fred and George said it's always been jinxed? Maybe not. Is there any proof? Pete From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 04:25:23 2004 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 04:25:23 -0000 Subject: JKR requested bat shot in PS/SS film... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104809 Arya: > The reason, if it's true, that JKR didn't want James shown, could be as simple as James > made some dying comment about something we couldn't yet know about- -like the > prophecy. Katie: Oh, that's really good! This whole business was bothering me, for the reasons you mention, but I was sure that JKR wouldn't make such an issue out of this for nothing. But I'd never considered that it would be *what* James said that Lupin, for example, was concerned about! Oh, I bet you're right. Katie who is inordinately happy that Remus probably *wasn't* with Lily that night From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Wed Jul 7 12:57:32 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 12:57:32 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore to be trusted? In-Reply-To: <001201c463cd$1bc09d30$6401a8c0@C3P0> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104810 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Maren Gest" wrote: > Has anyone else noticed that Dumbledore seems to never be around when somethings happening with Harry and Voldemort Carolyn: Absolutely. Join a lot of suspicious members of this list, some of them full paid-up members of DUST (Dumbledore Surveillance Team), many wearing FEATHERBOAS. Suggest you immerse yourself in MAGIC DISHWASHER and Spying Games for starters. Start with 39662, then 40044, and lose yourself in the Yahoo links..(it prompted one of the biggest ever threads on this list). Fast forward to 81010 for another recap and another cup of tea and a biscuit (nothing like being an armchair general).. ..then lobby Pip and the MD team to bring us up to date. The audience is getting restless (and want an end to fluff..). From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Jul 7 13:00:50 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 13:00:50 -0000 Subject: If Mark Evans is nobody who is Megan Jones? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104811 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "anthyroserain" wrote: > Arya: > > > Don't forget Gwenog Jones, the captain of the Holyhead Harpies and > > recently featured Witch of the Month on Jo's website. I also > noted, > > that just like Hestia, Gwenog was depicted as black. Coicidence? > > Relation? Same last name, similar racial description... > > > Katie: > > I can't speak for the UK, but I know the surname "Jones" is quite > common in the US, particularly for black Americans. Geoff: Jones, like Evans, is very common in Wales. Intriguingly, Gwenog looks very Welsh despite her ethnic background. Perhaps second generation wishing to integrate with existing culture? From mainecoon at wytopitlock.dk Wed Jul 7 11:54:38 2004 From: mainecoon at wytopitlock.dk (mainecoon at wytopitlock.dk) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 13:54:38 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The FAQ says "Lily first" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1089201278.40ebe47ea1a57@horde.scannet.dk> No: HPFGUIDX 104812 Hi Geoff > Geoff: > I have already referred to the following quote from canon: > > 'The evil face was now smiling. "How touching..."it hissed. "I always > value bravery...Yes, boy, your parents were brave... I killed your > father first, and he put up a courageous fight... but your mother > needn't have died... she was trying to protect you... Now give me the > Stone unless you want her to have died in vain."' > > (PS "The Man with Two Faces" p.213 UK edition) > > Therefore, I have subscribed to the "James died last" theory all the > time. Why can you still believe that Lily died first??? Voldemort tells Harry: "I killed your father first...." and Lily came out of the wand before James and as they appear reverse James died first. I fully agree with Tina on this subject even if I only have been reading the UK version. Anette From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Jul 7 13:06:01 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 13:06:01 -0000 Subject: I'm disappointed... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104813 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley" wrote: David: > So, c'mon, sharpen your quills and get your brains - especially > those you keep where no-one can see - in gear. What is this > device? What does it do? Is there a connection with the kettle > Lupin uses to brew tea for Harry in PoA? Why is Nackledirk *never > mentioned* in Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them, a work not > slow to describe the fauna of out-of-the-way spots? Geoff: Why should it be? Sounds more like a place to me. A sleepy English village buried in the lanes of Derbyshire with a quiet tea rooms run by an old lady with wispy hair whose name is Hestia..... From aandj at labyrinth.net.au Wed Jul 7 12:57:28 2004 From: aandj at labyrinth.net.au (Jocelyn Grunow) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 23:57:28 +1100 Subject: Why would Lily be spared? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104814 What about this quote: " but your mother needn't have died... she was trying to protect you" WHAT! WHY would Voldie, terror of the WW, have spared Lily? Do you think LV was lying? It is just such an odd thing to say. Jocelyn From aandj at labyrinth.net.au Wed Jul 7 13:01:21 2004 From: aandj at labyrinth.net.au (Jocelyn Grunow) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 00:01:21 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: HBP Speculation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104815 on 7/7/2004 11:13 PM, Gerard at lszydlowski at hotmail.com wrote: > The only monarchy JKR has told us about is that of the Giants. In a > sort of Narnian twist, we are seeing many of the magical creatures > lining up against a meglomaniacal magic-wielder. We know Hagrid is > half-giant, but we don't know an awful lot about his mother. Why > would a wizard take up with a giant in the first place? Could it have > been a marriage alliance between the wizards and a princess of giant > royalty? Perhaps Dumbledore sent Hagrid on his mission because the > giants might be more likely to listen to someone from their royal > line...And besides, "Harry Potter and Hagrid" just sounds lame. Unless the Giants of modern days are quite debased from their former glory (shade of Narnia again!) it does not seem as if former royalty rate highly, nor is the succession by bloodline. Hagrid's account of his visit shows a kingship which passes by conquest. I can't agree with you on this one! Jocelyn From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Wed Jul 7 13:08:17 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 09:08:17 -0400 Subject: Percy Weasley (was Re: Re: CoS clues to Books 6 & 7 analysis) Message-ID: <001801c46423$78a13400$bfc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 104816 Jocelyn: "Well Percy is standing up to his entire family, whom he loves very much. That takes courage. He is being a total idiot - but it isn't the easy road. The easy road would be to drift off and make excuses for never seeing them; to throw his jumper in the rubbish bin quietly. Does he have the courage to admit that he was wrong? Roll on Book 6!" I have been thinking about this for days. Percy is a puffed up, pride-filled peacock and very ambitious in the books. He threw a hissy fit when his father claimed Fudge had only given Percy the job in his office to spy on the Weasley family and DD. He said he would tell everyone at the ministry that he was no longer associated with the family. Percy slammed the door in his mother's face when she came to see him in London. He walked past Harry and Arthur in the MoM with his nose in the air. He sent back his Christmas gift with no note. He sent a letter to Ron telling him to steer clear of Harry and that Harry is unbalanced and possibly dangerous. He never visited his injured father, who at one time it was thought he might die from those injuries, while he was in St. Mungo's. (Is that all of it, I don't remember.) I live with the person who JKR could have used as a model for Percy. My 'Percy' would NEVER go back to the family after making such an idiot of himself. He has too much to apologise for and simply would not lower himself to say 'know what folks, I was wrong." No courage. I have an inkling (which I hope is wrong) that we are going to see Percy in a position like Ludo Bagman's...thinking he's passing information to 'our' side, but really passing info to one of LV's spies within the mnistry. Leading possibly to a death in the Weasley family. When Harry saw Mrs. Weasley facing the Boggart, the only two people we don't see *dead* are Charlie and Ginny. Cathy - who does have random thoughts when she's not in the shower. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mainecoon at wytopitlock.dk Wed Jul 7 11:39:28 2004 From: mainecoon at wytopitlock.dk (mainecoon at wytopitlock.dk) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 13:39:28 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore evil?? In-Reply-To: <000901c463ae$06cbdee0$6401a8c0@C3P0> References: <012f01c463ab$986dd9f0$295b253e@takun> <000901c463ae$06cbdee0$6401a8c0@C3P0> Message-ID: <1089200368.40ebe0f057a65@horde.scannet.dk> No: HPFGUIDX 104817 Hi Maren I agree with you that Dumbledore isn't that perfect as the general opinion seems to be, but I don't agree with you that DD isn't there on purpose whenever happens around Harry. Maren: > The first book he was called away on importaint duties. DD didn't know what was happening at Hogwarts and went of just to take care of his job. He came as soon as he realized that something was totally wrong. Maren: > and the fourth he wasn't there for the graveyeard part DD couldn't be there as Harry was brought to the graveyard with a portkey It's not realistic to believe that DD can be everywhere whenever Harry is in trouble. As the matter of fact Harry seems to have a ability NOT to tell DD when something is up. But but but, I went quite angry with DD after reading book 5. He is very selfish and thinks more of what he thinks is right to tell Harry than just tell Harry what he ought to know. Ok, DD admits that he should have told Harry the truth a long time ago, but Harry can't use that to anything! I still have a feeling that DD hasn't told Harry everything. Anette From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jul 7 13:14:40 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 13:14:40 -0000 Subject: JKR requested bat shot in PS/SS film... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104818 > Arya: > > > The reason, if it's true, that JKR didn't want James shown, could be as simple as James made some dying comment about something we couldn't yet know about- > -like the > > prophecy. > > Katie: snip . But I'd never considered that it > would be *what* James said that Lupin, for example, was concerned > about! Oh, I bet you're right. > Potioncat: Or it may have something to do with the way James fights LV that JKR didn't want revealed. From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Jul 7 13:17:23 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 13:17:23 -0000 Subject: The FAQ says "Lily first" In-Reply-To: <1089201278.40ebe47ea1a57@horde.scannet.dk> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104819 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, mainecoon at w... wrote: > Hi Geoff > > > Geoff: > > I have already referred to the following quote from canon: > > > > 'The evil face was now smiling. "How touching..."it hissed. "I always > > value bravery...Yes, boy, your parents were brave... I killed your > > father first, and he put up a courageous fight... but your mother > > needn't have died... she was trying to protect you... Now give me the > > Stone unless you want her to have died in vain."' > > > > (PS "The Man with Two Faces" p.213 UK edition) > > > > Therefore, I have subscribed to the "James died last" theory all the > > time. > > Why can you still believe that Lily died first??? Geoff: Whoops! I don't believe that!!! I originally wrote "Lily died last" and decided to change the wording of this sentence to James' perspective and made a pig's ear of it. The sentence should have read "Therefore I have subscribed to the 'James died first' theory all the time." Right, where's the iron.... From mnaperrone at aol.com Wed Jul 7 13:19:22 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 13:19:22 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited--emotional maturity In-Reply-To: <20040707091533.32280.qmail@webmail9.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104820 > Ally: > > Ah, but Sirius has his shortcomings as an adult, too, doesn't he? He > says himself that you can tell a person by the way he behaves to > those who are inferior to him and turns around and abuses his house > elf. A cruel thing. He allows Snape's head to bang around when > transporting him - a petty thing. Even as an adult, he makes no > apologies for the "prank" despite the fact that it endangered Snape > and Remus, another petty thing. He breaks the rules re: Grimmauld > Place on a number of occasions - an arrogant and reckless thing. > > What Sirius has going for him is his love and devotion to Harry and > James, but outside of that, I think he's more than a little boorish. > He doesn't seem to have a lot of remorse for things he's done wrong, > and doesn't seem to care much about the possible implications of his > impetuousness. Despite having broken ties with his reputable > pureblood family, he still seems like quite the elitist to me in > OOTP. > > > Amey: > First question, was their friendship so formal that he needed to say sorry? And just for a simple comment? If I remember right, he said sorry to Lupin in Shack for believing him to be a spy. That was a much seriuos thing, and it needed some comment after 12 years. But I don't think Sirius was thinking of anything else except fun and adventure full moon brought. And of course Lupin didn't take it that seriously himself. (It's like Hermione saying she wished to see thestrals also. Gosh, that opens up another thread if it is a hint. Sorry to bring it up if it is FAQ). > As for his shortcomings as adult, is he really a fully-grown normal adult? I mean, I don't want to post the whole thread of azkaban and others, so I will skip that part. As for allowing Snape's head to bang, Snape wasn't at all interested in hearing Sirius' defence in Shack, was he? Their rivalry is really bad. (Remember Harry and Draco, I doubt if they had done anything else in the position). I am not at all sure the Prank endangered Remus, I mean he was a werewolf then, so what the only danger was he being recognised as such. As for Snape, he is always taunting Sirius for being in the house, not risking his life etc. Is this not a petty thing? He fully understands the condition and still does the same thing, I agree with Harry somewhat, that this was one point which made Sirius come to DoM (of course along with love for Harry). Whatever DD says about Sirius not rising to taunts, it is a big factor. I am sure DD only said that to Harry because he didn't want harry and Sanpe's rivalry to grow more. > > > Amey, a seroious defender of Sirius.... > Ally: I agree that Snape has his own problems (I actually think they both are quite alike in terms of being arrested in their emotional development), but the fact that Snape is petty doesn't justify Sirius being so - it just makes them both wrong. I think Sirius did endanger Remus. If he was discovered as a werewolf, he would have likely been imprisoned. If he had killed Snape, he probably would have been executed himself. That's what makes Sirius so problematic for me is that he never thinks anything through - he has a sense of entitlement about him. As for being imprisoned - well, yes, he was. Sirius is really no different after imprionment than he was after the Prank. So not only did he not change when he was in prison, but he apparently didn't change much before going there either, unlike James, who did mature and see the error of his ways at a young age. Yes, he had a hard life, but just as so many people say that's no excuse for Snape not changing, how can it be an excuse for Sirius not changing? Maybe it makes their faults understandable, but it doesn't make them acceptable. From sherriola at earthlink.net Wed Jul 7 13:32:32 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 07:32:32 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius revisited--emotional maturity (Very long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002f01c46426$dc722720$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 104821 demetra wrote: > "I'm bored," said Sirius. "Wish it was full moon." > "You might," said Lupin darkly from behind his book. (OotP, page > 645) > No, I think that Lupin did mind Sirius' comment. Why else would he > reply "darkly". I think it was a thoughtlessly cruel comment on > Sirius' part, perhaps one of those impulsive outbursts. But notice, > even when Lupin calls him on it, there is no apology. I don't even > think Sirius caught on that he was being obnoxious. Del replies : I agree. Compare this with the scene between Harry and Ginny : (OoP, UK p.441-442) "Well, that was a bit stupid of you," said Ginny angrily, "seeing as you don't know anyone but me who's been possessed by You-Know-Who, and I can tell you how it feels." Harry remained quite still as the impact of these words hit him. Then he wheeled around. "I forgot," he said. "Lucky you," said Ginny coolly. "I'm sorry," Harry said, and he meant it. Harry forgot one of his friends' particularities (and that was about something that happened more than 2 years ago, not last month), but when Ginny shows that it's still a sensitive issue for her, Harry apologises. Sirius didn't. Del Sherry now: Ok, I wasn't going to say anything more about this, because, I am absolutely sure that my dad and stepmother would have felt as Demetra does, in the beginning, if they saw my friends and I teasing and heard comments about my blindness or my juvenile arthritis. However, I took the Lupin said darkly completely differently than either of you. Here's how I took it. Let's say a friend of mine gave me a bad time and teased me about something to do with one of my disabilities. I might reply darkly--and by that I mean in a menacing tone or something--watch out or I'll hit you over the head with my white cane. Or if it happened now, I might threaten to have my guide dog attack. I might say it deadpan, with no smile and in a dark tone, but anyone who knows me would know I wasn't offended. My dog would certainly never attack anyone! Anyone who knows anything about guide dogs would know that, too. But again, if a casual acquaintance or coworker or stranger said the same thing, I would be angry and offended. I believe that the friendship between Lupin and Sirius is too close for Lupin to have taken him seriously or been offended. Otherwise, why are they so close later, described as being like brothers? Yes, I know, in POA, they embraced like brothers. But their friendship throughout the rest of the books doesn't show any strain, and indeed, Lupin seems to be the only one, except maybe Dumbledore, who can have any impact on Sirius and make him stop and think. I totally can understand the parents on this list reacting as they do, but speaking as a person who has been disabled all my life, most of us are not offended by teasing from our friends. People may have to earn the right to tease us, but if we trust them ... just like anyone's trusted friends can tease them about whatever. We aren't any different in that way. And now, as an adult, my family, stepmother and siblings all tease me, as I do them, but they would sure jump on anyone else who did. It's a matter of closeness. I know I'm not saying this well. Sigh. At least, I know what I mean, even if I just can't seem to get it across as I'd like! *smile* Sherry G From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Wed Jul 7 13:38:24 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 08:38:24 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Hogwarts refreshment witch Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104822 the witch with the food trolley, She could be *anything.* She could be the driver's wife. Janet Anderson Gina now: Notice we have never seen the driver? Lupin said he must go have a word with the driver but we never know why or what was said or who he is. Does anyone other than me find this funny? Gina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aandj at labyrinth.net.au Wed Jul 7 13:16:36 2004 From: aandj at labyrinth.net.au (Jocelyn Grunow) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 00:16:36 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104823 on 7/7/2004 2:36 PM, justcarol67 at justcarol67 at yahoo.com wrote: > For what it's worth, we learn in OoP that Percy is Percy Ignatius > Weasley, so Percy isn't short for Percival. The names have separate > histories and derivations (though admittedly the Weasleys might not > know that). Surely there must be a history major here who know more than I do about the Percy family in Tudor times? About all I can remember is that at some point they were condemned as traitors. Jocelyn From jlawlor at gmail.com Wed Jul 7 07:15:59 2004 From: jlawlor at gmail.com (James Lawlor) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 02:15:59 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Petunia doth protest overly much In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96773c8804070700152f114e89@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104824 Pandrea: > I think the obvious explanation is most likely. Dumbledore is a > hugely powerful wizard and she is terrified of magic - maybe she > thinks that he'll curse her or kill her if they chuck Harry out. > Maybe Dumbledore had a little fun and threatened her a little to that > effect, though he wouldn't of course actually attack her. Or maybe > he just said something like "Well, if you throw Harry out, it will > naturally become well known and many angry wizards and witches will > turn up on your doorstep, thereby destroying your oh-so-normal life."Pleae. I'm I'll add yet a third explanation into the mix. (I really must stop replying to every third post - sorry! :D). It could be that Petunia, deep down, is actually a Decent Person. After Dumbledore's rather severe reminder, Petunia remembers what happened to her sister (perhaps without a hefty dose of righteous anger it's not easy for her to think of Lily "getting herself blown up", regardless of their differences) and what horrible fate awaits Harry. As much as it may not seem like it, and as loathe as she would be to admit it, I don't think she wants to see anything bad happen to Harry either. It also explains why she refused to explain to Vernon why Harry had to stay. If it was fear of Dumbledore or just angry wizards in general, I think she would have said something to the effect of "Vernon! If we don't keep the boy HIS KIND will come after us! We don't have a choice". Maybe I'm just an optimist. - James Lawlor, who hasn't sent this many emails in a day in a good while jlawlor at gmail.com From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Wed Jul 7 13:46:17 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 08:46:17 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and Achilles Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104825 Earlier today, I tagged a message with a throwaway line about comparing Harry to Achilles. Now, I have no theory about this, but I thought for fun I'd just line up a few Achilles factoids and see if anyone bites. The parallels are not complete, but some of them are suggestive. (Suggestive of what, I'm not sure!) Carin Gina now: Whoa! Interesting post. I had heard this before but that was a long time past. I would say there is a big possibility and that Harry's eyes we have been told are his weak spot. I am still confused about the scar though since she said that the shape was not the important part. He was disguised as a muggle and was brought back by DD to claim his true identity as a great wizard. His parents match up well too with the myth. I think you may be unto something especially the part about the Phoenix and the Centaur. Gina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From quigonginger at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 13:51:45 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 13:51:45 -0000 Subject: I'm disappointed... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104826 > David: Why is Nackledirk *never > > mentioned* in Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them, a work not > > slow to describe the fauna of out-of-the-way spots? > > Geoff: > Why should it be? Sounds more like a place to me. A sleepy English > village buried in the lanes of Derbyshire with a quiet tea rooms run > by an old lady with wispy hair whose name is Hestia..... Ginger deadpans: Well, Geoff, I defer to your excellent knowledge of British geography. You were the one who found Vauxhall Road, after all. But I think the Nackledirk to which JKR is referring is the one in Sweden, near which the Snorkacks are commonly found. Straight horned ones, of course. The Crumpled horned ones are deep in hiding. They live in Norway near the Quirrel family home. Obviously Luna and her father are going to play a big role in book 7. You are correct, though, in assuming that the Kettle of Nackledirk is no more a kettle full of nackledirks than the Great Wall of China is a hutch for one's good dinnerware. Ginger, who really posted this as an excuse to offer heartfelt congratulations to Lexicon Steve and staff for being named as JKR's fansite of the month. Well deserved! From clarkuss09 at hotmail.com Wed Jul 7 11:09:17 2004 From: clarkuss09 at hotmail.com (clarkuss09) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 11:09:17 -0000 Subject: Theory: Dumbledore to Teach Defence Against the Dark Arts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104827 I don't think it will be a member of the Order at all as they will have too much on their hands. Could this be the Half blood prince? Or maybe we will see Dumbledore's brother appear in the books. Surely if he was once a member of the original order and related to Dumbledore he is more than efficient in Defence against the Dark Arts. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 7 14:07:47 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 14:07:47 -0000 Subject: Think on This...... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104828 Plinker wrote: > What does the group consider the three MOST IMPORTANT things to > watch for in the next book? This being based on what we have found > in the books published to date. If you think of more let it rip. SSSusan: Hmmmm.... Gut reaction time here. 1) Harry figuring out how he is going to handle the burden of the prophecy and just what it means he must do. Will he resist this "calling" and be tempted to walk away from its "mandate"? How/when will he tell Hermione & Ron? Will he turn to anyone to help him sort it out? Will he develop an OFFENSIVE plan or will he choose a defensive position...or will he stay in denial? 2) Draco (and the other Slytherins). Will Draco stay two-dimensional and just a schoolyard nemesis, or will his dark threat at the end of OoP turn into something *substantial*? Is it time for the students to make their CHOICE about just who they support? 3) Snape. I've no idea in what way this will play out, but I think it's time for his role to be highlighted. Interesting that I didn't include the HBP. I guess, truthfully, that's because I've no clue how JKR's going to pull that in, nor what it will be about. Lupin's still my best guess for the HBP, but I've no idea about the storyline. Siriusly Snapey Susan From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jul 7 14:11:07 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 14:11:07 -0000 Subject: The Hogwarts refreshment witch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104829 > Gina now: Notice we have never seen the driver? Lupin said he must go > have a word with the driver but we never know why or what was said or who he > is. Does anyone other than me find this funny? > Gina Potioncat: Either the driver has the capability to contact Hogwarts and that is what Lupin was doing. Or Lupin used that as an excuse to leave the Trio and go somewhere else on the train to contact Hogwarts. (We're told by McGonagall that Lupin sent word ahead.) From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Wed Jul 7 14:13:23 2004 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 14:13:23 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Hogwarts refreshment witch Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104830 > Gina now: Notice we have never seen the driver? Lupin said he must >go >have a word with the driver but we never know why or what was said or who >he >is. Does anyone other than me find this funny? >Gina Actually, I think we do; he (Lupin) sent a message ahead to Hogwarts, so McGonagall knew what had happened when they arrived. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Jul 7 14:15:20 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 14:15:20 -0000 Subject: Harry Leaving Privet Drive Early (was Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 22 - St. Mungo's Hospital) In-Reply-To: <002e01c46408$29a85470$90c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104831 Cathy: Harry is obviously only protected when he is in the house - possibly the yard - of number four. He wasn't protected just around the corner (when the dementors attacked). Since the Dementors have joined LV, and there are the DE's and new one joining, being forced to join every day (presumably)...Harry is probably in the most danger he has ever been in...as far as leaving the house/yard is concerned. Jen: Canon indicates the protection is only in the house, since both Arthur and Sirius insist Harry stay inside after the Dementor attack, and Petunia/Vernon then lock Harry in his room. And according to Dumbledore, the blood protection only safeguards Harry from Voldemort: "While you can still call home the place where your mother's blood dwells, there you cannot be touched or harmed by Voldemort (OOTP, US, chap. 37, p. 836). But Voldemort tells us: "But how to get to Harry Potter? For he has been better protected than I think even he knows, protected in ways devised by Dumbledore long ago, when it fell to him to arrange the boy's future." (GOF, US, chap. 33, p. 657). 'Ways' implies more than one type of protection, but that doesn't explain how Dobby entered Privet Drive. If there are other protections in place, presumably they wouldn't be lifted for Dobby's visit (as they probably were for the Advance Guard & the Weasley visit in GOF). I think the risks are starting to outweigh the benefits at this point! Harry is only safe inside the house, from Voldemort, and we've seen that security can be breached... Jen Reese From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Jul 7 14:21:18 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 14:21:18 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104832 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Jocelyn Grunow wrote: > on 7/7/2004 2:36 PM, justcarol67 at justcarol67 at y... wrote: > > > For what it's worth, we learn in OoP that Percy is Percy Ignatius > > Weasley, so Percy isn't short for Percival. The names have separate > > histories and derivations (though admittedly the Weasleys might not > > know that). > > Surely there must be a history major here who know more than I do about the > Percy family in Tudor times? About all I can remember is that at some point > they were condemned as traitors. > They were. A long line of troublemakers involved in plots and treason for about 400 years. The last time was the Gunpowder Plot, I think. And their traditional enemies were the Nevilles. I did a post on it about a year ago (when I was fresh and innocent)- 60583. Kneasy From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Wed Jul 7 14:27:05 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 14:27:05 -0000 Subject: Pity for Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104833 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > > Third, all the time he spends looking for the CoS makes me feel that > he was craving a feeling of *belonging*, of *family*. His own family > ceased to exist before he was even born, but Slytherin is willing to > take him on as his Heir. > I got that same feeling in GoF, too, when Voldemort was talking to Harry in the graveyard, awaiting the arrival of the DEs. As he's talking about his fool of a muggle father, he's pacing about and studying the surroundings, NOT looking at Harry. It finally struck me what he was looking at - the gravestones. It's a FAMILY plot, it's not just his father buried there. He's looking at generations of Riddles all around him - this was his family, and this might be the first time he's ever been so close to them. But his choice has already been made - as the DEs approach, he announces "Here is my true family" (book not handy, unfortunately, so I might have the wording a bit wrong). I think that this is another similarity between Harry and TR - the fact that they've both been robbed of a family of their own, and how they respond to that. Wanda From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jul 7 14:27:36 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 14:27:36 -0000 Subject: Snape Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104834 > Alla: > > But here is my problem then. Is what Snape doing enough to be > considered a good person? I mean, yes, he is fighting against the Bad > Guy. I don't think I can doubt his loyalty to the cause anymore, but > does fighting against Evil automatically makes you good or is he just > a bad guy, who is on the right side? > > Because see obnoxious, is way too nice a word to call what he does to > Harry,IMO. > > That is of course only valid If you think that he is not pretending > and truly hates Harry, which I tend to agree with at the moment. > Potioncat: Well, you've got me thinking! And come to think of it, this may have been Kneasy's PoV all along. Life was so much easier before I joined this group! Those are some good points and I'll to consider carefully before I answer. Now, where did Carol go? I'll bet she would have some come answers? Anyone else? From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Jul 7 14:45:40 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 14:45:40 -0000 Subject: I'm disappointed... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104835 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "quigonginger" wrote: > > David: > Why is Nackledirk *never > > > mentioned* in Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them, a work not > > > slow to describe the fauna of out-of-the-way spots? > > > > Geoff: > > Why should it be? Sounds more like a place to me. A sleepy English > > village buried in the lanes of Derbyshire with a quiet tea rooms > run > > by an old lady with wispy hair whose name is Hestia..... > > Ginger deadpans: > > Well, Geoff, I defer to your excellent knowledge of British > geography. You were the one who found Vauxhall Road, after all. > > But I think the Nackledirk to which JKR is referring is the one in > Sweden, near which the Snorkacks are commonly found. Straight horned > ones, of course. The Crumpled horned ones are deep in hiding. They > live in Norway near the Quirrel family home. > > Obviously Luna and her father are going to play a big role in book 7. > > You are correct, though, in assuming that the Kettle of Nackledirk is > no more a kettle full of nackledirks than the Great Wall of China is > a hutch for one's good dinnerware. > Just to add some detail to the bare facts mentioned above. Nackledirk is named for the last resting place of McGillicuddy Nackledirk, an unfortunate casualty in the notorious annual broom race from Koparberg to Arjeplog. As we all know this passes through a dragon reservation which means there are a lot of non-finishers. Being an enthusiast of the early Scottish form of Quidditch (Creaothceann) he took the precaution of strapping his cauldron (or kettle) on his head for protection. Unfortunately it slipped over his eyes and he flew straight into a pissed-off Swedish Short-Snout. And since metal is a good conductor of heat his metaphorical hot-headedness became literal. He was buried where he fell and his kettle was solemnly placed over his remains as a memorial. It is said that when the moon is on the wane and the wind howls in the trees any potion mixed in this kettle tastes of singed hair and boiled ear wax and a ghostly voice can be heard to cry "Oh bugger!" This is said to cure flatulence and flat feet instantaneously. Kneasy From mnaperrone at aol.com Wed Jul 7 15:02:58 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 15:02:58 -0000 Subject: Lily being spared/Snape "re-joining" DD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104836 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Jocelyn Grunow wrote: > What about this quote: > > " but your mother needn't have died... she was trying to protect you" > > WHAT! > > WHY would Voldie, terror of the WW, have spared Lily? Do you think LV was > lying? It is just such an odd thing to say. > > Jocelyn Ally: I think that either: a) He was lying and trying to make Harry feel guilty, just like he lied about Hagrid; or b) In a twist, some DE (Snape? Pettigrew) made a deal to have Lily spared - along the same lines as Pettigrew getting a new arm - but V didn't follow through with it. Someone pointed out - either here or at mugglenet - that DD says at Karkaroff's trial that Snape "RE-joined" their side. As opposed to just saying he joined their side or he's been a spy for a long time. This seems to indicate he was for the Order, then against, then for it again. Maybe he switched sides as a spy when V was at the height of his power, as DD said, but then had a crisis or was lured back to V somehow just before the Potters died. He made his little pact with V to try to save Lily, was betrayed by V and then returned to DD after the Potters' deaths and provided helpful information against the remaining DES? That whole "re-joining" thing was not something I ever considered before, but it is intriguing. And if Snape was somehow connected with the Potters death but still managed to make his way back to DD, wouldn't that satisfy JKR's warning that Snape wasn't too nice and we should keep an eye on him but still allow him to be the grey, complicated character that she promises he is? From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jul 7 15:16:21 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 15:16:21 -0000 Subject: I'm disappointed... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104837 Kneasy wrote: > > It is said that when the moon is on the wane and the wind howls in the > trees any potion mixed in this kettle tastes of singed hair and boiled > ear wax and a ghostly voice can be heard to cry "Oh bugger!" > > This is said to cure flatulence and flat feet instantaneously. > Potioncat: Oh, good, canon proof that Snape survives until book 7. He will no doubt take a handful of NEWT level Potion students to the site to prepare a tricky potion that Harry (who won't be in the Potions class, of course) will need to defeat LV. Charlie Weasley will die fighting off a dragon as the potion making is happening and Snape, alas, will soon follow. He will at last show his bravery as he stands between dragon and students, arms spread out and wand forgotten, protecting the students from the dragon's charge as 17 year old Hermione apparates back to Harry with the finished Potion. Potioncat (who had to join in before this thread was cancelled.) From dk59us at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 15:19:20 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 15:19:20 -0000 Subject: JKR requested bat shot in PS/SS film was Re: JKR's input on film scene at GH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104838 Snow wrote: > I found part of the interview at: > http://www.darkhorizons.com/2002/harry/potold2.htm > > - 14th October 2001 - > Empire Online interviewed Director Chris Columbus yesterday who said > that "[JK Rowling] did a little piece for us that wasn't in the first > book but she had written it and she authorised it and it's in there > and it's a little secret that you won't expect to see. It's in the > first film because she originally wrote it for the first book and > decided to take it out. So you'll see that when you see the > film...one little sequence where we get a key into something that > happened in Harry's past"... > > The only little thing, referencing Harry's past, that I found in the > movie that wasn't in the book was where you see Hermione tell and > show Harry that his father was a seeker. The seeker reference along > with seeing James playing with the snitch in the pencieve scene has > already been discussed and basically desided on that James fortune, > along with the snitch/seeker reference, has lead many to the proposal > that James is the heir of the originator of the snitch, > FantasticBeastsAWTFT, Bowman Wright. Eustace_Scrubb: But in the Scholastic interview of 16 OCT 2000 ( http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript2.htm ), Rowling said "James was Chaser." In other words, that sequence in the movie doesn't add something that Rowling left out of the first book, it just contradicts what she has said herself (in plain, unqualified language, too). I would also argue that if Columbus was correct in saying that the scene gives us "a key to something that happened in Harry's past," that means something that happened after Harry's birth. I think we're back to the Godric's Hollow scene, which does not occur in the PS/SS book...where Lily is shown and James isn't. Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 7 15:20:14 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 15:20:14 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited--emotional maturity In-Reply-To: <20040707091533.32280.qmail@webmail9.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104839 SSSusan: > I didn't put as much weight on the "I'm bored. I wish it were a > full moon" comment to Lupin as you did **but** the fact that he > doesn't say "Sorry" or even "Oh, yeah" when Lupin darkly > responds "YOU might" DOES say something about Sirius' essential > nature. In these situations [and I'd add the goading-Harry-in-the- > fireplace one to the prank & the pensieve scene], he's arrogant and > full of himself; he thinks of what will bring HIM fun & pleasure, > not what others need or want. > Ally: > Ah, but Sirius has his shortcomings as an adult, too, doesn't he? > He says himself that you can tell a person by the way he behaves to > those who are inferior to him and turns around and abuses his house > elf. A cruel thing. He allows Snape's head to bang around when > transporting him - a petty thing. Even as an adult, he makes no > apologies for the "prank" despite the fact that it endangered Snape > and Remus, another petty thing. Amey: > First question, was their friendship so formal that he needed to > say sorry? And just for a simple comment? If I remember right, he > said sorry to Lupin in Shack for believing him to be a spy. That > was a much seriuos thing, and it needed some comment after 12 > years. But I don't think Sirius was thinking of anything else > except fun and adventure full moon brought. And of course Lupin > didn't take it that seriously himself. SSSusan: Just a quick comment. I guess my take is that formality isn't the key. Having never bought the "Love means never having to say you're sorry" line from Love Story, I think CLOSE friends need to say "I'm sorry" absolutely just as much as those in a more formal relationship. I DO agree that believing Lupin to have been a traitor is a MUCH bigger deal than this offhand full moon remark, and if Sirius did say "I'm sorry" then [anybody got PoA handy?--I'm at work], that was an important admission. Siriusly Snapey Susan...who has no intention of dropping the "Siriusly" from her handle but who doesn't mind considering his flaws either. :-) From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 7 15:42:15 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 15:42:15 -0000 Subject: Lily being spared/Snape "re-joining" DD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104840 Jocelyn wrote: > > What about this quote: > > " but your mother needn't have died... she was trying to protect > >you" > > WHAT! > > WHY would Voldie, terror of the WW, have spared Lily? Do you > > think LV was lying? It is just such an odd thing to say. Ally: > I think that either: > a) He was lying and trying to make Harry feel guilty, just like he > lied about Hagrid; or > b) In a twist, some DE (Snape? Pettigrew) made a deal to have Lily > spared - along the same lines as Pettigrew getting a new arm - but > V didn't follow through with it. > > Someone pointed out - either here or at mugglenet - that DD says at > Karkaroff's trial that Snape "RE-joined" their side. As opposed to > just saying he joined their side or he's been a spy for a long > time. This seems to indicate he was for the Order, then against, > then for it again. Maybe he switched sides as a spy when V was at > the height of his power, as DD said, but then had a crisis or was > lured back to V somehow just before the Potters died. He made his > little pact with V to try to save Lily, was betrayed by V and then > returned to DD after the Potters' deaths and provided helpful > information against the remaining DES? SSSusan: Yes, as Ally has some, some have postulated that Voldy was planning to save Lily for Snape as some kind of reward. Another possibility is that there was some as-yet-unspecified *bond* or *connection* between Voldy & Lily. I formerly thought that perhaps he was related to her in some way, but: 1) he doesn't seem to give a flying fig for his relatives [witness Dad's execution]; and 2) JKR has already said Harry's NOT a descendant of SS, and if Voldy/TR *is*, then Lily could hardly be related to him. So I guess that's a long way of saying...who knows? Siriusly Snapey Susan From n2fgc at arrl.net Wed Jul 7 15:50:06 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 11:50:06 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 22 - St. Mungo's Hospital In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104841 [Wendy wrote]: | > > My answers are 1) they sure don't seem to care about him in this | > > scene; and 2) not a whole heck of a lot. | | Lee added : | > Molly's being over-motherly for the most part, Moody doesn't have | > much empathy, Lupin's trying but I think he feels bound by some | > orders as well as trying to maintain a "peace-maker" role...all | > adding up to something vague and not as supportive as Harry really | > needs. | | Del replies, with a very puzzled look on her face : | OK you two, I'm completely at sea here ! Could you tell me what you | think the adults should do to show support to Harry ? It seems to me | that they're doing a good job, but obviously you don't think so, but I | can't for the life of me figure what you think they should be like. | Please enlighten me, would you ? [Lee]: Okay, if I were there, I would probably try to pull Harry aside, privately, and let him know, not in some vague way but point-blank, look, I really care about you and I know this is rough on you; I don't know exactly what it feels like to see what you're seeing and such, but I'm here if you really want to talk. I'd let him know that as much as I might want to give him the answers he need/wants, I can't, not because I feel he's incapable of understanding but because the timing is wrong and, when possible, I'd give him the information. I'd try to extend myself to him by just making myself available. Sometimes, people need a very direct approach, not just a lot of over-mothering and, considering that Harry's not had any good adult role models at home--and I stress at home--during his formative years, one can't assume that he's going to want to easily trust an adult with what's happening inside him. The direct approach, IMO, would put out a welcome mat, so to speak, inviting him to take advantage of a good listening ear. Sometimes listening is the key, and I don't feel there was very much real listening and response from those Harry hoped he could count on. [I had written]: | > Yes, Yes! And there are times when his peers aren't so "in his | > corner" either. Harry's sort of running the gauntlet alone in many | > places in the book. | | Del replies : | Uh, you kind of lost me with your idioms, but I'll assume I understood | what you meant :-) (I do that all the time ;-) | So you say Harry is on his own most of the time ? I say : yes of | course, he's a teenager ! Most teenagers *feel* like they are all | alone with their problems, so it doesn't surprise me that Harry feels | the same. However, many teenagers are wrong in thinking that nobody's | there for them, and Harry is wrong too. But most teenagers won't | accept help even when it is offered to them, they will pretend | everything is OK or that they can handle things on their own, and so | Harry does too. | | We see how Harry feels and seems all alone to face his problems, but | that's only because the book is about Harry. I'm sure if we saw things | through Ron or Hermione's eyes, we'd see that they too feel and seem | all alone. And Neville too ! [Lee]: I can agree to a point, but, as I stated above, sometimes a very direct approach is needed to cut through the barriers or, at least, create a tiny window...in other words, Harry, in his mind, doesn't feel the availability of a good adult listener; everyone seems to have his/her own agenda--protecting (or over-protecting Harry)--but no one has really come to him and said, "I *really* am interested in what *you're* feeling and what *you* need." I know that, for myself, I respect that kind of approach when I'm under stress. I don't like it when people just try to come in and take over and control my surroundings, even though their intentions may be good and they might think they're taking some of the stress off. I much prefer someone saying to me, "What can I do to be of help to you?" IMO, Harry may be feeling the same way. [I had written]: | > I hear ya. I don't know about you, but when I was a kid, I used to | > do a lot of extra-curricular listening. :-) And it's amazing how | > parents can discuss a child like an object or whatever. I used to be | > annoyed but, at the same time, fascinated at the things they talked | > about. :) | | Del replies : | Yep, because that's the *normal* way to talk about people. Isn't it | what we do on this list too ? We talk about characters we sometimes | care a lot about, but too often it comes accross as a cold analysis of | some bizarre object. It's normal. [Lee]: Yes and no...On the list, yes; but I really do try *not* to talk about people I know like that because I know how hurtful that can be. Trust me...I get on doctors' cases a lot when I hear a clinical analysis done on someone I care about and, for example, when discussing a procedure or something, my first question is, "If you were in my position and needed this done or your spouse needed this done, would you recommend it?" That has been known to give them pause. :-) Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me; | n2fgc at arrl.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 15:51:22 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 15:51:22 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 22 - St. Mungo's Hospital In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104842 Lee wrote : > Agreed, and I know a lot of adults who would probably react like Fred > and George, et al. This is personal; this is family who's hurt and > the first thing one would probably want to do is be with that loved > person. Del replies : But isn't this one of the first lessons the Trio learned, at the end of PS/SS ? When Ron gets beaten by the Queen on the giant chess set, Harry and Hermione have to fight their instinct to go to him. Had they moved, they would have lost everything. Granted, the kids are not technically family, but their frienship is already very strong at that time. Lee wrote : > Look, IMO, I don't care how much experience and such a person may > have, but when we're talking about someone really close, all that > detachment can fly out the proverbial window; the instinct to get to > the hurt one is alive and well. If that's considered childish, well, > perhaps, then, I'd never work out in the order, either...and I'm no > kid. :-) Del replies : It's not the *instinct* I'm discussing, it's the *actions* of the Weasley kids. Sirius explains to them very clearly in what danger they would put Harry and the Order if they went to see their father right now, and *still* the kids won't stay put. It's quite clear to me that if Sirius had not been there to restrain them, they would have gone, even when knowing full well what the consequences might be. We're not talking about *normal life* here. We're talking about a *war* situation. The Order reminds me a lot of those Resistance groups (I'm French, I was raised on their stories) during the WWII. They were organised in cells, and unfortunately, it happened every once in a while that a cell was betrayed, voluntarily or *unvoluntarily*, and threats, real or imaginary, to one's family was a classic tool used to make someone yield. Which is precisely why the groups were organised in cells, so that a base member of a cell couldn't betray more than just their cell. It was only the leaders who knew about the other cells and they were supposed to be more cold-blooded, tough and dedicated to the Resistance, even unto their torture or death or that of their family if necessary. But the case of the Order is slightly different, in that it is (apparently) composed of only one cell. If the Ministry had sniffed something weird about the Weasleys, they could easily have interrogated them. A few drops of Veritaserum, and the whole Order is shot, and Harry's connection to LV is revealed... Del From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 7 15:54:24 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 15:54:24 -0000 Subject: Trewlawney is her grandmother?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104843 "Arya" wrote: [snip] > Arya > (who still wonders how all those prophecy sphere recordings came to be > recordings....) Presumably some variant on the Pensieve? -- Phil From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Wed Jul 7 16:22:52 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 16:22:52 -0000 Subject: Prophecy recrodings (was Trewlawney is her grandmother??) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104844 "Arya" wrote: (who still wonders how all those prophecy sphere recordings came to be recordings....) "Phil Boswell" wrote: Presumably some variant on the Pensieve? ---------------- But Harry, after receiving Trewlawney's second prophecy never gave some penseive account of it. And why, if Dumbledore was going to keep the 1st prophecy so secret, did he even bother then with reporting that prophecy? Why, I also wonder was Dumbledore not at all more interested in the prophecy Harry heard?? I think somehow recordings have to be auto-generated and that whatever/whoever the Keeper of the Hall of Prophecy is tht labels things--I don't think it's necessarily human and capable of "telling" its secrets. Arya From aandj at labyrinth.net.au Wed Jul 7 14:21:36 2004 From: aandj at labyrinth.net.au (aandj64) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 14:21:36 -0000 Subject: HBP Poll Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104845 I voted other because I suspect... Viktor Krum Jocelyn From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 16:35:52 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 16:35:52 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited--emotional maturity In-Reply-To: <20040707091533.32280.qmail@webmail9.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104846 Amey wrote, about Sirius wishing in front of Remus that it was full moon: > First question, was their friendship so formal that he needed to say > sorry? And just for a simple comment? Del replies : Being sorry and saying so has nothing to do with formality. Whether I hurt someone I barely know or my husband (who is also my best friend), I say sorry when I realise what I've done. Amey wrote : > I don't think Sirius was thinking of anything else except fun and > adventure full moon brought. Del replies : But that's *precisely* the problem !! Full moon brought *Sirius* some fun, not Remus. Remus did *not* like the full moon periods, even if they were easier to bear since his friends shared them with him. It's like telling your best friend who has migraines regularly : "I can't wait for your next migraine episode, so I can go and see that movie that you don't want to see !" How nice is that ? Amey wrote : > And of course Lupin didn't take it that seriously himself. Del replies : He answered "darkly". I'd say it's pretty serious for Remus. Amey wrote : > (It's like Hermione saying she wished to see thestrals also. Del replies : Yep, and as soon as she realises what she's said, she apologises profusely : I'm sorry, that was a stupid thing to say. Sirius said nothing of the sort. Del From aandj at labyrinth.net.au Wed Jul 7 14:24:55 2004 From: aandj at labyrinth.net.au (Jocelyn Grunow) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 01:24:55 +1100 Subject: names - Percy and Ginny / Percy Weasley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104847 Kneasy wrote: > I did a post on it about a year ago (when I was fresh and innocent)- 60583. Thanks Kneasy! Nice post - seems pretty significant to me! I particularly liked the following: >In a not very gentle age, the Percys in particular were renowned for their >pitiless brutality. For three centuries the battle cry of "A Percy! A Percy" >was the equivalent of "No Quarter!" The word 'mercy' did not seem to exist in >their vocabulary. >The Nevilles, though no push-over, had a better press. >Both being ambitious, proud and touchy, they did not make good neighbours and >the bickering and occasional warfare became a traditional emnity. Oh, and BTW - there was some talk a day or two ago about the name Ginevra, but I never saw mentioned that it can be a variant of Guinevere. Cathy Drolet at cldrolet at s... wrote: > I live with the person who JKR could have used as a model for Percy. My > 'Percy' would NEVER go back to the family after making such an idiot of > himself. He has too much to apologise for and simply would not lower himself > to say 'know what folks, I was wrong." No courage. Hmmm. Well the omens, if what we have been discussing about names is true, are not good for him returning manfully to the Weasley fold. I hate to think that the hat was so wrong, but after all, it is just a hat! *G* I wonder why it _didn't_ put him in Slytherin. Perhaps his ambition was not so developed at age 11. Jocelyn From janedeau at mac.com Wed Jul 7 15:09:56 2004 From: janedeau at mac.com (Jane Deau) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 08:09:56 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: HBP Speculation and foreshadowing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104848 On Jul 7, 2004, at 5:13 AM, szydlowskil wrote: > The only monarchy JKR has told us about is that of the Giants. Ohh, where does it say that? Because I do think Hagrid could be the Half Blood Price. He plays a large-ish role (no pun intended) in COS. My other theories for books 6 & 7 are coming from readers instinct, there are certain well-worn paths that writers usually follow and I feel JKR has done a good job of foreshadowing Dumbledore will die, or be as if dead when he is most needed. This is the whole Obi Wan thing. It is written many times that the Trio will be safe and that Hogwarts will be safe as long as Dumbledore is around and that Dumbledore is the only wizard VM fears. So it makes sense for JK to raise the stakes near the end and take Dumbledore out of the picture. Harry will die - but not for good. His death will be part of defeating VM and we will all be scared and shed a tear but then Harry will be brought back - "Yay!" all the children will cheer. Sirius is not really dead. Where is the body? I have watched too many movies and tv shows to believe in a death without a body. If he was really really permanently dead then there would have been a body and a funeral. Refutes? -Jane [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sofdog_2000 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 16:43:18 2004 From: sofdog_2000 at yahoo.com (sofdog_2000) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 16:43:18 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore evil?? In-Reply-To: <000901c463ae$06cbdee0$6401a8c0@C3P0> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104849 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Maren Gest" wrote: > Has anyone else noticed that Dumbledore seems to never be around when somethings happening with Harry and Voldemort (The first book he was called away on importaint duties, the second the govenors sent him away, and the fourth he wasn't there for the graveyeard part) The 5th book is the only one with Voldemort in it that Dumbledore was there to help, but it wasn't until he very end did he intervine. I think its possible that Dumbledore is not really as good as we think he is. Also how is it possible for Dumbledore not to catch that Pro. Moody in book four is not the real Moody? Even in the Penisive Dumbledore seems to be some what friends with the old man, and they have known each other for a long time. Mr.Weasley even says Dumbledore never miss' a trick, so how is it possible that he wasn't able to tell a good friend was an imposter, Fake Moody couldn't have been that good of an imposter?! SOF: Well, Crouch did a bang up job playing Moody. He was eccentric, unpredictable and darn near lawless. I've never been able to understand why he bothered to actually be so useful to the students, teaching them real DADA and being so kind to Neville. But Crouch's mission was to stay close to Harry and get him to the Triwizard Cup. He stuck to that ambition admirably. I hardly think Dumbledore is evil just because he's elsewhere Harry goes off to his big showdowns. Dumbledore knows a lot but he isn't omniscient. If he were he could have led a team to take out Voldemort when he was hiding in Albania. There was a certain over-confidence that Dumbledore seems to have reigned in with Sirius' death. He was calling the shots on Harry and doling out info (which I hated), but he knows now that so much subterfuge is dangerous. People can't act prudently without knowing what's at risk. This was sort of a Saruman-like arrogance that Dumbledore was exhibiting. Fortunately he got his wake-up call before he himself slipped over the edge. From adanabbett at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 15:47:32 2004 From: adanabbett at yahoo.com (Adan) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 15:47:32 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Thestrals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104850 "hermionekitten9" wrote: > kitten says > But if Neville saw his grandfather die during VMWI that would make > Neville one year old (same age as Harry was) so Neville wouldn't be > able to see the threstals (spelling?) JKR has said that Harry > couldn't see the threstals, before book five, because he was too > young, or their death wouldn't have "sunk in" yet... I would assume > that the same would be said for Neville. I think she said that Harry didn't actually see his parents' deaths, just the greenish light from the spells. And he didn't actually see Quirrel die either, he was told about it later. Then she added that Harry didn't see the thestrals at the end of book four because she didn't want to add anything like that at the end of the book and so she decided, as you said, that the death hadn't sunk in yet. Adan From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 16:19:46 2004 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 16:19:46 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited--emotional maturity (Very long) In-Reply-To: <002f01c46426$dc722720$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104851 Sherry: > However, I took the Lupin said darkly > completely differently than either of you. Here's how I took it. Let's say > a friend of mine gave me a bad time and teased me about something to do with > one of my disabilities. I might reply darkly--and by that I mean in a > menacing tone or something--watch out or I'll hit you over the head with my > white cane. Or if it happened now, I might threaten to have my guide dog > attack. I might say it deadpan, with no smile and in a dark tone, but > anyone who knows me would know I wasn't offended. My dog would certainly > never attack anyone! Anyone who knows anything about guide dogs would know > that, too. But again, if a casual acquaintance or coworker or stranger said > the same thing, I would be angry and offended. Katie: I just wanted to say that I read the "darkly" comment exactly as you did. It sounded like friendly banter to me. (By the way, I wonder if the Prank might have started similarly. James may have panicked when he realized Snape was taking their words literally. But that's mere speculation...) I like how you compared Lupin's werewolf condition to being disabled. I think it's a very apt comparison in this case. I think Lupin would be surprised and even bemused to hear his friends apologize for humorous comments. Their actions (becoming animagi, supporting and helping him) are compassionate, and that is what should be taken more seriously. -Katie From adanabbett at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 15:48:11 2004 From: adanabbett at yahoo.com (Adan) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 15:48:11 -0000 Subject: Animagus & Patronus Symbolism (Mole / Ferret / Rat) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104852 > > Adan: So, who is the mole? Or is there another spy? Or could we > > substitute ferret(Malfoy)? "A.J." wrote: > I hope not. Traditionally in the real world, ferrets were used for > rodent control-- running into burrows to scare out the rats and > mice, which people would then kill at the entrances (the Pied Piper > was a ferreteer). I dunno whether JKR knows that and plans any > symbolism of ferret vs rat (somebody getting PP?) No, I agree. I don't think mole and ferret can be interchanged, but I was having difficulty coming up with who could be a mole. When I think of moles, I think of underground tunnels... which led me to Mr. Filch... which didn't really lead to me any exciting ideas. Sure, it'd be good for LV to have a mole at Hogwarts. But would he really have much use for a squib? I guess when you are going to use someone that their abilities might not matter. Of course, I might be thinking terrible thoughts about him because I just don't care for that character even if he is just some sad old man in love with his transformed cat. I don't know. Like everything else, it will require more thought. I'll just have to take you're word on the rats. Adan, though slightly ashamed to admit it, always thinks of the Beastmaster when she thinks of ferrets. From dk59us at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 16:58:49 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 16:58:49 -0000 Subject: Why would Lily be spared? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104853 Jocelyn wrote: > What about this quote: > > " but your mother needn't have died... she was trying to protect > you" > WHAT! > > WHY would Voldie, terror of the WW, have spared Lily? Do you think > LV was lying? It is just such an odd thing to say. Eustace_Scrubb: My take on this is that in Voldemort's mind there is no reason for anyone to sacrifice their own life to save someone else...I think he means Lily could have escaped while James was putting up his courageous fight, since Voldemort was after Harry, not her. She could have apparated right out of there, without Harry, in Voldemort's mind. Of course, she couldn't have done that, as she felt the love of a mother for her child. Voldemort doesn't understand that emotion, as we've been told again and again. Furthermore, as he holds that there is nothing worse than death, he cannot fathom why anyone would face death "needlessly." So I don't think Voldemort was lying when he said this, nor do I think there was some deal to let Lily live that he reneged on. He was telling the truth, but from a perspective the reader finds horribly warped. Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Wed Jul 7 17:06:47 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 17:06:47 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited--emotional maturity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104854 >>> Del replies : > Being sorry and saying so has nothing to do with formality. Whether I > hurt someone I barely know or my husband (who is also my best friend), > I say sorry when I realise what I've done. > [Later part of post, arranged by Brenda] > Amey wrote : > > And of course Lupin didn't take it that seriously himself. > > Del replies : > He answered "darkly". I'd say it's pretty serious for Remus. > > Amey wrote : > > (It's like Hermione saying she wished to see thestrals also. > > Del replies : > Yep, and as soon as she realises what she's said, she apologises > profusely : I'm sorry, that was a stupid thing to say. Sirius said > nothing of the sort. Bren now: I take it as guys' thing. Like silent agreement or pact amongst guys that they don't show their weakness. Or don't acknowledge that they had done something stupid/out-of-line and now they see it -- but now their *pride* takes over and they become incapable of saying "sorry". I think, in Sirius' rebellious and "cooler-than-thou" mind, it was already too late to show that kind of remorse. Hermione is different, she is a GIRL (again emphasis on being a GIRL) more mature and very upfront and straightforward. Apologizing for suspecting Lupin as a spy is a totally different matter. Lupin's integrity as a whole was on the hot plate. Sirius NEEDED to apologize, as he did (same goes for Lupin). Sirius probably thought that it'd be petty of Lupin to get offended by his 'wish it was full moon' comment, they had been close friends for almost 5 years, worked his butt-off for 3 whole years to be Padfoot to keep his company. Lupin knew the Marauders accepted and liked him for who he was, not what he was. I doubt he was actually offended after all those years. It was more of a "friendly tease", but being teenage bully guys, it came out more harsh than intended, IMO. I also completely agree with Sherry G on this one, she said in Message 104821: ------------------------------------------------------------------- I took the Lupin said darkly completely differently than either of you. Here's how I took it. Let's say a friend of mine gave me a bad time and teased me about something to do with one of my disabilities. I might reply darkly--and by that I mean in a menacing tone or something--watch out or I'll hit you over the head with my white cane. Or if it happened now, I might threaten to have my guide dog attack. I might say it deadpan, with no smile and in a dark tone, but anyone who knows me would know I wasn't offended. My dog would certainly never attack anyone! Anyone who knows anything about guide dogs would know that, too. But again, if a casual acquaintance or coworker or stranger said the same thing, I would be angry and offended. I believe that the friendship between Lupin and Sirius is too close for Lupin to have taken him seriously or been offended. Otherwise, why are they so close later, described as being like brothers? Yes, I know, in POA, they embraced like brothers. But their friendship throughout the rest of the books doesn't show any strain, and indeed, Lupin seems to be the only one, except maybe Dumbledore, who can have any impact on Sirius and make him stop and think. -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Amey wrote : > > I don't think Sirius was thinking of anything else except fun and > > adventure full moon brought. > > Del replies : > But that's *precisely* the problem !! Full moon brought *Sirius* some > fun, not Remus. Remus did *not* like the full moon periods, even if > they were easier to bear since his friends shared them with him. Bren now: But didn't Lupin say in Shrieking Shack, "And they didn't desert me at all. Instead they did something for me that would make my transformations not only bearable, but the best times of my life. They became Animagi" (PoA, 258. UK) Werewolves aren't danger to animals, so when they couldn't keep him company as humans they did as animals. Exploring Hogwarts ground and Forbidden Forest as animals is a *extremely* fun adventure -- even for me, let alone hot-blooded over-their-own-heads boys. I think they all longed for that *special time of month* (not like girls... yikes). Can you imagine the look on their faces when they started writing the Marauder's Map? Hmm, I wonder if they actually called themselves that, 'Marauders'. But why the 'Intruders' or 'Raiders', I wonder... Bren, who keeps ending posts with another questions, just like Smarttone ;P From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Jul 7 17:07:39 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 17:07:39 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited--emotional maturity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104855 > SSSusan: > Just a quick comment. I guess my take is that formality isn't the > key. Having never bought the "Love means never having to say you're > sorry" line from Love Story, I think CLOSE friends need to say "I'm > sorry" absolutely just as much as those in a more formal > relationship. > > I DO agree that believing Lupin to have been a traitor is a MUCH > bigger deal than this offhand full moon remark, and if Sirius did > say "I'm sorry" then [anybody got PoA handy?--I'm at work], that was > an important admission. > Jen: Sirius owns up to a couple of things in the Shrieking Shack. First: "Harry....I as good as killed them...I persuaded Lily and James to change to Peter at the last moment...I'm to blame, I know it.." (US, POA, chap. 19, p. 365) Also: "Not if he thought I was the spy, Peter," said Lupin. "I assume that's why you didn't tell me, Sirius?" he said casually over Pettigrew's head. "Forgive me, Remus" said Black. (p. 373, same chapter) The assurance with which Lupin questions Sirius, as if he already knows the answer, tells me they were very close. That they 'embrace like brothers' in this chapter, symbolizes the bond JKR is trying to convey about the Marauders when they were in school. That's what makes Peter's betrayl even more tragic--he caused four friends, close as brothers, to start questioning each other's loyalty. That's what led to their downfall. And in OOTP, another admission of guilt, if not an apology by Sirius: "Of course he was a bit of an idiot!" said Sirius bracingly. "We were all idiots!" and then later, "A lot of people are idiots at the age of fifteen. He grew out of it." (OOTP, US, chap. 29, p.670-671) It just occurred to me that JKR may be using this to draw a parallel to Harry in OOTP. NOT that he's hexing people for fun or anything like James and Sirius did, but in a way JKR is giving us valuable information about how she views a person's behavior at 15--sometimes you do or say things you regret, but you can choose to move on. James, at least, did move on. I happen to think Sirius moved on as well, given the circumstances, in part because he is capable of admitting his mistakes. Harry needed to hear the message Sirius and Lupin gave him that day. Harry deals with so much more than the Marauders did, and he doesn't have the luxury of being an 'arrogant little berk' either, given his situation. So I like that JKR writes such a normal problem for him to deal with --finding out that the generation before you isn't perfect, and choosing to improve on their mistakes. OOTP is nothing if not a message about all the mistakes adults are capable of! Jen Reese From greatelderone at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 17:09:42 2004 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 17:09:42 -0000 Subject: Why would Lily be spared? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104856 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Jocelyn Grunow wrote: > What about this quote: > > " but your mother needn't have died... she was trying to protect you" > > WHAT! > > WHY would Voldie, terror of the WW, have spared Lily? GEO: We don't know. > Do you think LV was > lying? GEO: Nope. Dark Lords and dark minion never lie at the moment of climax when their plan comes to fruition. > It is just such an odd thing to say. > > Jocelyn GEO: No it's just another clue about Lily. Remember Rowling said that we'd learn something new about Harry's mother in Book 7. From greatelderone at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 17:15:15 2004 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 17:15:15 -0000 Subject: Why would Lily be spared? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104857 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eustace_Scrubb" wrote: > Eustace_Scrubb: > My take on this is that in Voldemort's mind there is no reason for > anyone to sacrifice their own life to save someone else...I think > he means Lily could have escaped while James was putting up his > courageous fight, since Voldemort was after Harry, not her. She could > have apparated right out of there, without Harry, in Voldemort's > mind. GEO: I do believe he was pointing to the incident when he told her to stand aside so that he could AK Harry and instead she refused. > So I don't think Voldemort was lying when he said this, nor do I think > there was some deal to let Lily live that he reneged on. He was > telling the truth, but from a perspective the reader finds horribly > warped. > GEO: Yet it makes little sense that he actually tried to go around her instead of going through her when she was one of Dumbledore's followers who had managed to defy him three times thus making her his enemy and also a mudblood. For Voldemort to do something like that imo is extremely uncharacteristic especially when he had Cedric killed just for being in the graveyard. From anita_hillin at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 17:27:26 2004 From: anita_hillin at yahoo.com (AnitaKH) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 10:27:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 22 - St. Mungo's Hospital In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040707172726.41083.qmail@web42103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104858 "(Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)" wrote: [after akh snipped a majority of the post discussing how Harry lacks support] Okay, if I were there, I would probably try to pull Harry aside, privately, and let him know, not in some vague way but point-blank, look, I really care about you and I know this is rough on you; I don't know exactly what it feels like to see what you're seeing and such, but I'm here if you really want to talk. I'd let him know that as much as I might want to give him the answers he need/wants, I can't, not because I feel he's incapable of understanding but because the timing is wrong and, when possible, I'd give him the information. I'd try to extend myself to him by just making myself available. [and akh continues the carnage by snipping the rest of the post] akh: I'm not a strong adovcate for either the "neglect" camp or the "he's a teenager, so he'd reject them anyway" camp, but a couple of issues occurred to me, so I'm dipping in my oar. It would be a generous, caring gesture for an adult to approach Harry in the way you recommend, Lee, but in the current climate, with Voldemort playing sneaky and no support from the general public, they are probably a bit preoccupied. The boggart scene in OOTP reminds Harry that his upset over Ron being made prefect may be petty, compared to the crushing weight of Molly's fear that her entire family will be wiped out before the war is over. Under calmer circumstances, I would expect Molly, Arthur, Lupin and certainly Sirius to offer their support. There is also the sticky issue of Voldemort himself, and the suspicion that Harry is a direct conduit to him. While Dumbledore has the most to lose if LV learns to use the connection, the other adults could provide damaging information, too. Given that Dumbledore avoids even casual eye contact with Harry, sitting down for a heart-to-heart might help Harry, but it could unravel the Order. Best not to risk it, perhaps. akh, who hopes she would be thoughtful and caring in that situation, but might get a bit distracted... --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 17:28:40 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 17:28:40 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited--emotional maturity (Very long) In-Reply-To: <002f01c46426$dc722720$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104859 Sherry Gomes wrote: > I believe that the friendship between Lupin and Sirius is too close > for Lupin to have taken him seriously or been offended. Otherwise, > why are they so close later, described as being like brothers? Del replies : I don't remember Sirius and *Remus* being described as brothers. I remember Sirius and *James* being described so by McGonagall in PoA. And interestingly, Peter is mentioned but not Remus. Looks like both Remus and Peter were second-class friends in Sirius and James's gang. Sherry wrote : > But their friendship throughout the rest of the books doesn't show > any strain, and indeed, Lupin seems to be the only one, except maybe > Dumbledore, who can have any impact on Sirius and make him stop > and think. Del replies : Well, Remus is the only one who *knows* Sirius, isn't he ? He's the only one who can figure out what's going on in Sirius's head and try and prevent him from doing stupid things. But we don't see Sirius doing much for Remus, do we ? Amey wrote : > I totally can understand the parents on this list reacting as they > do, but speaking as a person who has been disabled all my life, most > of us are not offended by teasing from our friends. People may have > to earn the right to tease us, but if we trust them ... just like > anyone's trusted friends can tease them about whatever. Del replies : I've always been fat, and I've been teased about it in many different ways, and I never liked it. But I've found that my *real* friends quite simply *don't* tease me. I don't have to ask them not to, they just don't do it to start with, or stop immediately after realising I don't like it. *They* are my trusted friends. The others, the ones that still think they can *innocently* tease me about my weight, even though it's quite obvious I don't like it, are *not* trusted friends, because if I can't trust them about something so obvious, how can I trust them about more delicate issues ? Anyway, I don't believe Sirius was teasing Remus. He was just expressing his wish for fun, without caring one bit that what was fun for him was no fun at all for his friend. Del, who gets your point, though. From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Wed Jul 7 17:29:12 2004 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 17:29:12 -0000 Subject: I'm disappointed... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104860 Kneasy wrote: > > It is said that when the moon is on the wane and the wind howls > in the > > trees any potion mixed in this kettle tastes of singed hair and > boiled > > ear wax and a ghostly voice can be heard to cry "Oh bugger!" > > > > This is said to cure flatulence and flat feet instantaneously. Potioncat: > Oh, good, canon proof that Snape survives until book 7. He will no > doubt take a handful of NEWT level Potion students to the site to > prepare a tricky potion that Harry (who won't be in the Potions > class, of course) will need to defeat LV. At last Lord Voldemort's hideous plan is unveiled in its fullness! He intends to hold the wizarding world to ransom by threatening everyone with flatulence and flat feet, something he can do because of the special powers that passed to him from Wormtail's hand. Only Harry, with his special connection to Voldemort, can make the Kettle work - a fact that Dumbledore understood at the end of GOF when he Gleamed with Triumph. However, the taste of singed hair and boiled earwax is irresistible to Winky, who... David From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Wed Jul 7 17:33:09 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 17:33:09 -0000 Subject: Ringdear of the Marauders: Sirius or James? (was Kreacher the Murderer) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104861 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "anthyroserain" wrote: > Me earlier: > > > It struck me odd though, when I was reading all the posts re: > Animagi > > and what it means. How Stag is the alpha-male dear and Dog is a > > faithful, dead loyal (literally) and best-friend. But why though? > > What makes James more 'alpha-male' than Sirius? > [snip] > > So how is it that JAmes is thought to be the leader of the > Marauders? > > By default of reckless teenage Alpha-male standards, shouldn't > Sirius > > be the "Man of Men", James the "best friend of the coolest guy", > > Lupin the "model student" and Peter well, Wormtail? > > > Katie: > > I think that Sirius and James probably had an equal share in their > escapades. Why is James generally considered the leader? Because > Sirius WORSHIPS James. I think Sirius is extremely rebellious, but > would do anything James told him to (there's a line to the same > effect in the Pensieve scene about James, as well). And I agree with > your comments about the situation being different after James's > death. Bren now: But that is *another* point I wanted to address. What made Sirius WORSHIP James? Peter "hero-worshipped" James and Sirius according to McGonagall (or was it Madam Rosmerta...), but why Sirius? Seems like he had everything a typical teenage boy wanted. > Katie wrote: >In a previous post, Demetra said that "Sirius dismisses Peter with a > rather cruel comment about Wormtail wetting himself." I read that > comment as jealous and petty, not cruel. Please don't flame me, > people, but, put simply, I'd say that Sirius had a crush on James. > Sirius becomes "the buddy" rather than "the alpha-male" because he's > obviously devoted to James, while James is much more interested in > other things (i.e., Lily). > > -Katie > trying so hard to keep this from becoming a SHIP post Bren now: I think some, if not many, were speculating that Sirius had a crush on James, shrug. He strikes me as a typical bloke, jock, a WOMANIZER than anything. I'm very curious to see if JKR would explore on the issue of homosexuality. It will be most definitely interesting to see how she will tackle this *addressed to children*. I wonder JKR can fit this in though, with the series nearly ending (sobbing), having to tie up all the loose ends (which are MANY) -- and she insists the next 2 books will be significantly shorter than OoP??? WHY, I ask, WHY!!! I will most gladly read 2,000 pages of Harry Potter any day! Bren, not enjoying the idea of Sirius the "beta male", oy! From McGregorMax at ec.rr.com Wed Jul 7 17:37:33 2004 From: McGregorMax at ec.rr.com (mcmaxslb) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 17:37:33 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 22 - St. Mungo's Hospital In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104862 > [Lee]: > I will say that I really like Kingsley! He seemed to take a bit of time to > treat Harry kindly...interested in his flying, etc. I don' know...I just > like Mr. Shacklebolt. :-) Kingsley also said that Dumbledore should've made Harry a prefect because it would have shown confidence in Harry, and he was right. It would've helped countered Dumbledore's keeping of Harry at arms length and DD does admit it at the end of OotP that that was one of his mistakes. McMax From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Jul 7 17:46:39 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 17:46:39 -0000 Subject: names - Percy and Ginny / Percy Weasley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104863 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Jocelyn Grunow wrote: > > Oh, and BTW - there was some talk a day or two ago about the name Ginevra, > but I never saw mentioned that it can be a variant of Guinevere. > Nah, can't be. I reckon she's named after a bottle of Dutch Gin. Arthur once had a lost weekend in Amsterdam. Kneasy From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Wed Jul 7 17:48:29 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 17:48:29 -0000 Subject: What killed the Riddles? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104864 I've always supposed that the 3 Riddles were killed by a AK curse, but I was comparing their deaths with that of Cedric, and noticed a small discrepancy. They were said to be found with a look of terror on their faces, as if frightened to death. Yet when we've seen an AK in action, on Cedric, it isn't described that way - Harry looks at "his open grey eyes, blank and expressionless as the windows of a deserted house, at his half-open mouth, which looked slightly surprised." Even poor Mrs. Diggory tries to console herself and her husband with the thought that he didn't suffer. I don't know if this is typical, but from the way it's described the one time we've seen it in action in GoF, the AK seems almost like a humane way of killing - certainly compared to a Cruciatus Curse. Why would it be so much different for the Riddles? If they were witches, I could see how they'd be terrified if they were facing someone who was clearly going to AK them, but as muggles, they would have had no idea what was about to happen. I thought perhaps their "symptoms" were closer to that which a basilisk could cause, but judging from the size of the one in CoS, it's not the sort of thing someone could carry around in their pocket and pull out when needed. Could they have been tortured, like the Longbottoms? Would that leave no mark, being done by magic? Wanda From dk59us at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 17:51:48 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 17:51:48 -0000 Subject: The Name Game was Re: Dumbledore's names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104865 Jocelyn wrote: > > Surely there must be a history major here who know more than I do > > about the Percy family in Tudor times? About all I can remember is > > that at some point they were condemned as traitors. Then Kneasy: > They were. A long line of troublemakers involved in plots and treason > for about 400 years. The last time was the Gunpowder Plot, I think. > > And their traditional enemies were the Nevilles. > > I did a post on it about a year ago (when I was fresh and innocent)- 60583. > > Kneasy Now Eustace_Scrubb: The Thomas Percy who was involved in the Gunpowder Plot served the Earl of Northumberland of that time. Perhaps of interest is that another of the thirteen Gunpowder plotters was one Ambrose Rookwood...perhaps a collateral ancestor of that other traitor, Augustus Rookwood? And of course the conspirator whose name is synonymous with the plot was Fawkes. FWIW. Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 18:03:50 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 18:03:50 -0000 Subject: Riddle and Snape In-Reply-To: <20040707083615.5189.qmail@webmail6.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104866 Amey: Remember when TR meets harry in CoS, he says he is more interested in Harry than "mudbloods" (Sorry not exact words)? He asks Harry how a small boy like him was successful against the "greatest wizard" twice? Is this just arrogance? This somehow points me to the fact that TR diary shadow maintained some concious of the real LV (just like photographs, not potraits). So if he could somehow gain body, he would go in search of his spirit (or whatever remained after curse) and merge with it again. Yes a new body, just 16 yr old, with all the powers restored... definitely stronger than present day LV in spirit form. And the way they met in CoS, I don't think by that time TR was such a good boy that he was much distingushable from LV, at least not in his nature. vmonte responds: I was just thinking today that I wished I had a diary that could make another version of me that would stay home and clean the house and feed my family while I sneaked out to the day spa. I think that Dumbledore should take a page out of Tom's diary and create another version of himself. One Dumbledore would stay inside Hogwarts pacing his office while the other one could use his transfiguration skills to walk around, spying freely (Dobby anyone). Heck why not 3 Dumbledores. One could be just for time-travel fix-ups, and another as backup in case one got killed. Maybe, that beautiful "Nitwik Oddment" speech at the begining of SS/PS was actually given by a Dumbledore version that stunk at speech making! Hell, why not another version of Sirius! (Before anyone freaks on me -- I am just joking!) vivian From jlaming426 at aol.com Wed Jul 7 18:11:20 2004 From: jlaming426 at aol.com (jimlaming) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 18:11:20 -0000 Subject: Harry and theHalf Brother Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104867 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ladyramkin2000" wrote: > Carol wrote: > > >She (Petunia) is a Muggle. And Mark's parents must be too, since > the MoM has no record of any witch or wizard in Little Whinging. > (They wouldn't know about Mark) > > So how come they know about Hermione, whose parents are also Muggles. > And there are several other students with Muggle parentage who have > been duly sent their letters. What's so special about Mark? Jim points out, The special thing about Mark Evans is that he has drawn so much attention for a walk on part that JKR has now informed us is a "nobody." See the website. Anybody know what the weather in Bolivia is like this time of year? Jim Laming From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Jul 7 18:24:47 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 18:24:47 -0000 Subject: I'm disappointed... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104868 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley" wrote: > Kneasy wrote: > > > > It is said that when the moon is on the wane and the wind howls > > in the > > > trees any potion mixed in this kettle tastes of singed hair and > > boiled > > > ear wax and a ghostly voice can be heard to cry "Oh bugger!" > > > > > > This is said to cure flatulence and flat feet instantaneously. > > Potioncat: > > > Oh, good, canon proof that Snape survives until book 7. He will > no > > doubt take a handful of NEWT level Potion students to the site to > > prepare a tricky potion that Harry (who won't be in the Potions > > class, of course) will need to defeat LV. > > David: > At last Lord Voldemort's hideous plan is unveiled in its fullness! > He intends to hold the wizarding world to ransom by threatening > everyone with flatulence and flat feet, something he can do because > of the special powers that passed to him from Wormtail's hand. > > Only Harry, with his special connection to Voldemort, can make the > Kettle work - a fact that Dumbledore understood at the end of GOF > when he Gleamed with Triumph. > > However, the taste of singed hair and boiled earwax is irresistible > to Winky, who... > Kneasy: ....once overdosed on a mis-sorted pack of Bertie Botts Every Flavour Beans. Been unmanageable ever since. Manoeuvred from the Crouch household into Hogwarts by Voldy- supporting evil Bean-counters from the Ministry, she feeds her addiction by passing on crucial information. Meanwhile, others desperate for a cure scour the land looking for the lost kettle. Mundungus Fletcher, badly stricken in the pedal department is frantic, testing every cauldron he can lay his hands on, stealing them when necessary. A global shortage looms as floor by floor, Grimmauld Place fills with kitchen impedimentia. Harry, little realising that the fate of world chiropody and methane production lies in his hands, never wonders why Luna and her father are so keen to get to Sweden. Though the exploding cauldron that killed her mother could put him on the scent, a sort of singed scent.... From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 7 18:27:35 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 18:27:35 -0000 Subject: Why would Lily be spared? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104869 Eustace_Scrubb: > > My take on this is that in Voldemort's mind there is no reason for > > anyone to sacrifice their own life to save someone else...I think > > he means Lily could have escaped while James was putting up his > > courageous fight, since Voldemort was after Harry, not her. She > > could have apparated right out of there, without Harry, in > > Voldemort's mind. GEO: > I do believe he was pointing to the incident when he told her > to stand aside so that he could AK Harry and instead she refused. > Eustace: > > So I don't think Voldemort was lying when he said this, nor do I > > think there was some deal to let Lily live that he reneged on. > > He was telling the truth, but from a perspective the reader finds > > horribly warped. GEO: > Yet it makes little sense that he actually tried to go around > her instead of going through her when she was one of Dumbledore's > followers who had managed to defy him three times thus making her > his enemy and also a mudblood. For Voldemort to do something like > that imo is extremely uncharacteristic especially when he had > Cedric killed just for being in the graveyard. SSSusan: RIGHT. Which is precisely why some of us thought there might be SOME kind of bond or connection between Voldy & Lily. He's certainly in canon never showed any interest in giving an enemy a chance to get away before, never told someone to stand aside. (As you noted, he killed Cedric just for being there--didn't give him a chance to run or send him back to the maze.) *If* what Voldy was saying was that he really WOULD have spared her if she'd stepped aside [and I know Eustace doesn't think so, but *if*...], it's truly amazing and does make one wonder exactly why he'd do it. Others have expressed that Voldy just *said* that to Harry in order to make him feel worse, but somehow that doesn't ring true.... Like you said in your last post, the Evil Lord never lies at the climactic moment. :-) Siriusly Snapey Susan From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 7 18:31:56 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 18:31:56 -0000 Subject: Ringdear of the Marauders: Sirius or James? (was Kreacher the Murderer) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104870 Bren: > But that is *another* point I wanted to address. What made Sirius > WORSHIP James? Peter "hero-worshipped" James and Sirius according > to McGonagall (or was it Madam Rosmerta...), but why Sirius? Seems > like he had everything a typical teenage boy wanted. SSSusan: Except, perhaps, a loving family and a happy home life devoid of prejudice & the dark arts? Siriusly Snapey Susan From jelly92784 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 18:40:07 2004 From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (jelly92784) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 18:40:07 -0000 Subject: What killed the Riddles? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104871 wrote: > I've always supposed that the 3 Riddles were killed by a AK curse, but > I was comparing their deaths with that of Cedric, and noticed a small > discrepancy. They were said to be found with a look of terror on > their faces, as if frightened to death. Yet when we've seen an AK in > action, on Cedric, it isn't described that way - Harry looks at "his > open grey eyes, blank and expressionless as the windows of a deserted > house, at his half-open mouth, which looked slightly surprised." Now me: I think that their expressions had to do with the situation facing them, although in both cases it was death due to AK, it was very different for the riddles and cedric. Cedric and Harry were thinking that the cup being a portkey was a part of the last task of the tournament, as far as we know cedric's life wasn't full of danger like Harry's was and this was probably the last thing that he expected, therefore, he was 'surprised' and probably not quite comprehending what was happening. We know less about the case of the Riddles. I assume that the teenage boy that they saw was Tom, and although they probably had rarely, if ever, seen him before my guess is that he might've gone in there and told them exactly who he was and what he was going to do to them, and then he did it. The riddles would've been terrified. I guess in general what i'm saying is that it's not the curse that leaves a certain expression on the victim's face, but the circumstances surrounding the curse and what the victim is experiencing. thoughts? Janelle From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 18:40:20 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 18:40:20 -0000 Subject: Percy Weasley (was Re: Re: CoS clues to Books 6 & 7 analysis) In-Reply-To: <001801c46423$78a13400$bfc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104872 I have an inkling (which I hope is wrong) that we are going to see Percy in a position like Ludo Bagman's...thinking he's passing information to 'our' side, but really passing info to one of LV's spies within the mnistry. Leading possibly to a death in the Weasley family. When Harry saw Mrs. Weasley facing the Boggart, the only two people we don't see *dead* are Charlie and Ginny. Cathy - who does have random thoughts when she's not in the shower. vmonte responds: She never saw herself (or Arthur) either. I think that she is the one who is going to die. vivian From dk59us at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 18:42:56 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 18:42:56 -0000 Subject: Why would Lily be spared? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104873 Eustace_Scrubb: > > My take on this is that in Voldemort's mind there is no reason for > > anyone to sacrifice their own life to save someone else...I think > > he means Lily could have escaped while James was putting up his > > courageous fight, since Voldemort was after Harry, not her. She > > could have apparated right out of there, without Harry, in > > Voldemort's mind. GEO: > I do believe he was pointing to the incident when he told her > to stand aside so that he could AK Harry and instead she refused. Eustace_Scrubb again: Sure, because he couldn't see why she was hanging around at that point. She could have been gone. Then she annoyed Voldemort by getting in between him and his quarry. GEO continued: > Yet it makes little sense that he actually tried to go around > her instead of going through her when she was one of Dumbledore's > followers who had managed to defy him three times thus making her > his enemy and also a mudblood. For Voldemort to do something like > that imo is extremely uncharacteristic especially when he had > Cedric killed just for being in the graveyard. Eustace_Scrubb again: At Godric's Hollow, I think Voldemort was completely focused on one thing, killing Harry. I don't think he was worried that either James or Lily could actually harm him (they'd defied him, but they couldn't vanquish him), so their resistance--their very presence--was nothing more than a nuisance. As I see it, he finished off James, who annoyingly and quite futilely attempted to resist with his wand. Then Voldemort ran to the baby's room, eager to complete the mission, only to find Lily standing in his way. So he told her to get out of the way, not out of mercy, not because of some deal he'd made, but out of exasperation. And then he _did_ kill her. I don't think he stood there and said, "If you're not out of here in 5 minutes you're toast!" I think it was a matter of seconds. It didn't take much longer than having Wormtail kill Cedric did and it certainly was no more merciful. But to Voldemort's way of thinking, what he told Harry at the end of PS/SS was the truth: she needn't have died; it was her own fault she stayed when she could have apparated and then it was her fault that she wouldn't get out of the way. To one unfamiliar with love, who believes there's nothing worse than death, this would have made perfect sense. Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 18:46:28 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 18:46:28 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 22 - St. Mungo's Hospital In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104874 Lee wrote : > Okay, if I were there, I would probably try to pull Harry aside, > privately, and let him know, not in some vague way but point-blank, > look, I really care about you and I know this is rough on you; I > don't know exactly what it feels like to see what you're seeing and > such, but I'm here if you really want to talk. Del replies : I see at least 3 problems with that : 1. Just like everyone has a particular way of receiving support, everyone also has a particular way of giving support, and this is simply not the way of any of the adults who care about Harry. Molly is the type who tries and makes your life simpler. DD and Remus try to show in subtle ways that they are available if there's a real need, but mostly they let you decide. And Sirius, well, that's a whole other matter... Some of the kids, on the other hand, act like that. But they have to whack Harry around the head before he listens. Which brings me to my second point. 2. Harry would just look blankly at you and pretend everything is fine. I remember he did it to DD, but I can't remember in which book (CoS ?). He had *many* things going wrong in his life, but when DD asked him straightforwardly if he had anything to tell him, Harry simply said no. 3. Harry *chooses* who he wants to talk to. At the beginning of GoF, he didn't want to inform Hermione or Ron or DD or whoever about his scar hurting, because he thought he knew how they would react and wasn't interested. He chose Sirius, even though Sirius was far away and barely knew him. So even if you told him every night that you're there for him, Harry wouldn't remember it and would rather wish that he could get help from the only one who couldn't right at that time, whoever that might be. Lee wrote : > I'd let him know that as much as I might want to give him the > answers he need/wants, I can't, not because I feel he's incapable of > understanding but because the timing is wrong and, when possible, I'd > give him the information. Del replies : But isn't that exactly what the Order did ? They made it quite clear that someday the kids would be allowed in the Order and would get all the answers. But Harry would not be satisfied with anything less than the whole truth right now. That's just the way he is. Lee wrote : > I'd try to extend myself to him by just making myself available. Del replies : But apart from DD, all Harry's adult friends did just that, as much as they could ! Harry spent *weeks* at GP, with many adult friends around him, but he never talked to anyone. Lee wrote : > The direct approach, IMO, would put out a welcome mat, so to speak, > inviting him to take advantage of a good listening ear. Sometimes > listening is the key, and I don't feel there was very much real > listening and response from those Harry hoped he could count on. Del replies : The *only* one who wouldn't talk to Harry was DD. All the others were there for him. But they had *a lot* of work to do, and they were burdened by their own emotional turmoils, so I guess they just didn't feel like *prying* answers out of a moody teenager who almost never opens up even when they are listening. Lee wrote : > I can agree to a point, but, as I stated above, sometimes a very > direct approach is needed to cut through the barriers or, at least, > create a tiny window...in other words, Harry, in his mind, doesn't > feel the availability of a good adult listener; everyone seems to > have his/her own agenda--protecting (or over-protecting Harry)--but > no one has really come to him and said, "I *really* am interested in > what *you're* feeling and what *you* need." > > I know that, for myself, I respect that kind of approach when I'm > under stress. I don't like it when people just try to come in and > take over and control my surroundings, even though their intentions > may be good and they might think they're taking some of the stress > off. I much prefer someone saying to me, "What can I do to be of > help to you?" IMO, Harry may be feeling the same way. Del replies : I'll repeat what I said earlier. You say that you react well to one kind of support and not well at all to another. And you describe which type of support you like and would like Harry to receive. But none of the adults in the Potterverse give *that kind* of support. It's not that they don't want to, it's just not their way. They never did that, and they probably never will. It's unfortunate, for sure, but I guess it's deliberate on JKR's part. It would be problematic to have an adult who listens, gives good counsel, and answers all questions. Not much angst left, heh :-) ? Lee wrote : > I get on doctors' cases a lot when I hear a clinical analysis done on > someone I care about and, for example, when discussing a procedure or > something, my first question is, "If you were in my position and > needed this done or your spouse needed this done, would you recommend > it?" That has been known to give them pause. :-) Del replies : I agree, but you see, it's not the doctors' *job* to *care* about their patients. Their job is to heal them. Just like Moody's job is to protect Harry, not to like him. And when someone starts confusing their job and their emotions, you get DD, and his huge mistakes. That's because he was *caring* for Harry that he didn't tell him what he needed to know. If he had been more cold-hearted, more Moody-like, Sirius would still be alive and Harry would have learned Occlumency, among other things. It's because DD *was* supporting Harry in his own way, taking as much of Harry's burden on his own shoulders as he could for as long as possible, that in the end he ended up *not* supporting Harry. What a paradox ! Del From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 18:51:41 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 18:51:41 -0000 Subject: Introduction, and thoughts regarding HPL:Puzzles and Mysteries In-Reply-To: <96773c88040706182028572070@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104875 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, James Lawlor wrote: > ...edited... > > If we consider the plan involving the Triwizard Tournament it is > the best, and really the only way to keep anyone (and in particular, > Dumbledore) from finding out that Voldemort had returned to power. > It would have been easy enough for Crouch-as-Moody to turn Harry's > toothbrush or pillow into a portkey. But if Harry had disappeared > from his bed or the bathroom never to be seen again, it would have > caused quite a stir. ...edited... > Asian_lovr2: Excellent post, very concise and well thought out. Of course, I agree. Among other things, enchanting Harry's toothbrush or pillow is not as easy as it sounds. Fake!Moody would have had to get into Harry's bedroom without being detected. Remember among other things, he would have had to get past the portrait of the Fat Lady. Then, how could he make sure that someone else didn't touch the toothbrush or pillow first, thereby sending the wrong person to the graveyard in Little Hangleton. Also, how could he time it properly? How would he know that Harry hadn't bought a new toothbrush? How would he know that Harry hadn't borrowed Ron's toothbrush? How could he be sure that the pillows wouldn't get switched when the Elves cleaned the Dorm Room? Too many variables and uncertainties. The plan for assisting Harry in winning the Tri-wizard's Tournement, included as part of the plan, making sure that no one but Harry could touch the cup. It was a precise object, it was to be touched at a controlled time and place, and Fake!Moody was on the spot to make sure it was Harry who touched it. Of course, Fake!Moody hadn't considered that Harry and Cedric would touch it together. As I read your post, a new thought occurred to me, the cauldron that was used to bring Lord-V's body back had to have a potion in it, based on the description and actions of the fluid in the cauldron. In additon, I doubt that the Riddle family just happened to have a giant man-sized cauldron laying around. So, Voldemort did need some time to prepare for the Rebirthing Cerimony. Given that both he and Peter had limited ability to move around in the wizard or muggle world in order to find cauldrons and potion ingredients, and that in all likelihood, the potion ingedients were relatively obscure, it probably took a great deal of time to get it all together. So, the end of the Tri-Wiz, which was also near the end of the school year, probaby worked out nicely. > James Continues: > > - How did Sirius order that Firebolt without giving himself away? > How did he get the money out of his vault? And for that matter, how > did Mrs. Weasley get money out of Harry's vault? > > As for the first question, I thought of a couple answers, but if you > think about them too much they begin to fall apart, so I offer the > easy explanation: The Goblins didn't care to inform anyone that > Sirius Black had been making large withdrawals. As for the Weasleys, > it could easily have been arranged so they have permission. Or > possibly there's magic at Gringotts that would prevent someone > dishonestly taking money out of someone else's vault. > > - James Lawlor Asian_lovr2: I think the answer to the purchase of the Firebolt is as simple as 'Mail-Order'. Just as we here in the muggle world are able to purchase things with a written authorization to withdraw funds from out bank accounts (ie: checks and Dedit cards), Gringott's bank has an equivalent procedure. Business in the Wizard World has to be just as complex as business in the muggle world. We see evidence of international trade, business-to-business transaction, a full range of commerce; I find it difficult to believe that is all done on a person-to person, face-to-face, cash only basis. It's reasonable and logical that the Wizard's Banks has some means of accomodating transactions like this. Another example, Hermione mail ordered Harry's Broomstick Servicing Kit while she was on vacation in France. It seems reasonable that the same process would come into play. Hermione, as part of the product order form, signed an authorization that allowed funds to be transferred from her Gringott's account to the account of Quality Quidditch Supplies. This of couse assumes Hermione has a Gringott's account, but I think that's a fair assumption. Also, I want to re-enforce the point you made. The Goblins don't seem to have any fondness for or strong allegiance to the Ministry. I think it is clear from the books that Goblins take money matters very seriously. Given that, I don't think they would feel any obligation to betray a customer's privacy, and inform the Ministry of activity on certain accounts. I think safeguarding their customers money and privacy is far more important to the Goblins than assisting the Ministry in catching criminals. I also agree that Goblins have their own brand of magic that is well suited to Banking. I have always speculated that the Goblins have a magical means of detecting fraud. Therefore, when Mrs. Weasley claims to need money from Harry's account for school supplies and pocket money, the Goblins can tell that Mrs. Weasley is indeed telling the truth; that she is in fact acting as an authorized agent of the account holder. Just a few thoughts. Steve/Asian_lovr2 From dk59us at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 18:53:28 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 18:53:28 -0000 Subject: Ringdear of the Marauders: Sirius or James? (was Kreacher the Murderer) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104876 Bren: > > But that is *another* point I wanted to address. What made Sirius > > WORSHIP James? Peter "hero-worshipped" James and Sirius according > > to McGonagall (or was it Madam Rosmerta...), but why Sirius? > > Seems like he had everything a typical teenage boy wanted. Then SSSusan: > Except, perhaps, a loving family and a happy home life devoid of > prejudice & the dark arts? > > Siriusly Snapey Susan Now Eustace_Scrubb: Well, hey, Regulus didn't think it was so bad, did he now? What was wrong with Sirius, anyway, the malcontented delinquent! He was probably just fine until they sent him to that school...what _do_ they teach them in these schools? Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb (who's just kidding, but may run to the asbestos-covered shelter just in case anyway) From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 7 19:05:13 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 19:05:13 -0000 Subject: Ringdear of the Marauders: Sirius or James? (was Kreacher the Murderer) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104877 Bren: >>> But that is *another* point I wanted to address. What made Sirius WORSHIP James? Peter "hero-worshipped" James and Sirius according to McGonagall (or was it Madam Rosmerta...), but why Sirius? Seems like he had everything a typical teenage boy wanted.<<< Then SSSusan: >> Except, perhaps, a loving family and a happy home life devoid of prejudice & the dark arts?<< Now Eustace_Scrubb: > Well, hey, Regulus didn't think it was so bad, did he now? What was > wrong with Sirius, anyway, the malcontented delinquent! He was > probably just fine until they sent him to that school...what _do_ > they teach them in these schools? > > Eustace_Scrubb > (who's just kidding, but may run to the asbestos-covered shelter > just in case anyway) SSSusan again: [Chortle.] No need to run from ME over this, Eustace. :-) I'm so befuddled about my own feelings & thoughts regarding Sirius right now that I couldn't flame anyone unless they came out and said "Sirius was THE worst character we've met yet." Hmmmm. Kneasy? You wanna take that one one? Siriusly Snapey Susan...who really MUST get to work before she gets sacked. From enderbean01 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 17:18:31 2004 From: enderbean01 at yahoo.com (Miyuki Takagi) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 10:18:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Snape Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040707171831.75987.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104878 Pandrea: >>>I definitely think the 14 years is not a coincidence. It's too neat that he started teaching then, presumably at the start of the school year therefore only a few weeks after Harry's parents were killed. It may just be that he had nowhere else to go so DD took him in.>>> Harry's parents were killed on October 31, 1981 when Harry was 1, right? School starts _before_ that in September. It would seem that Snape started teaching a month before the Potters were attacked. So he probably rejoined the good side before or around that time quite possibly to play a double agent. enderbean From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Wed Jul 7 17:19:46 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 7 Jul 2004 17:19:46 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Crouch/Moody Message-ID: <20040707171946.21620.qmail@webmail7.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104879 Lisa: >> Anyone have any theories on how Lily & James made their >> money? I assume Sirius' wealth is family money- how else could >> he, and not Harry, afford a Firebolt. Amey: Harry didn't buy Firebolt, but he could easily afford it. >> "erader45" responded: >> That sounds okay, but if GG is the prince of half-bloods, then why >> are all of the Weasleys (purebloods) and Hermione (muggleborn) in >> Gryffindor? Amey: I seem to remember the Hat's song about the House qualities, and it says that Gryffindor favoured bravery. There is no mention of blood preference. Anyways, there is no blood preference in any house except Slytherin (Even Prof. Binns confirms this in CoS). >> Carol >> As headmaster, he has >> the Sorting Hat (once Gryffindor's) but he also has Fawkes (scarlet >> and gold, the Gryffindor colors) and Godric Gryffindor's sword. I >> don't think the last two items necessarily go with the headmastership. >> I think they actually belong to Dumbledore himself. (If they belonged >> to the head of Gryffindor House, they would be in McGonagall's custody. Amey: I think he has those items because he is headmaster. He might even have items from other Founders (maybe except Slytherin.. but then remember what Prof. Binns says, he doesn't do Dark Magic doesn't mean he can't (not exact words), so there might be some other items which we have yet to see. >> Potioncat: >> .in >> retrospect, who do you like better? Crouch!Moody or Snape? >> (Assuming those are the only two choices?) >> I don't think Snape is pretending. I think he is vicious. Amey: This might sound stupid, but that is the exact reason I would prefer Snape (can't like Snape, sorry) more than Moody/Crouch. He is not pretending. So basically you know that if he is helping Harry (can't see him trying, but still remember Occlumency lessons), he will not backstab. And of course after all, there is this famous quote about known enemy being better. >> akh: and I feel he's likely to leave because he's either threatening >> the safety of the Dursleys by his presence in their house or needs to be at >> the Order headquarters to address some crisis. Amey: Sorry for heavy snipping. But has anyone considered the situation that Sirius might have left 12,GP to Harry in his will, and so Dumbledore will keep Harry with Dursleys' for only time necessary to fulfill his charm (he calling it "Home"). And also he is 16, the same age when Sirius got his own house. >> Allie: >> If she was kidding around about going into hiding over a little thing >> like Mark Evans (per her website), imagine where she would have to >> hide if she killed off Harry!! Amey: Maybe moon... I think Mars will be somewhat safer... :) Amey, hoping JKR doesn't need to go to moon after 7th part From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 19:20:21 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 19:20:21 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited--emotional maturity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104880 Brenda M. wrote, about Sirius not apologising: > I take it as guys' thing. Like silent agreement or pact amongst guys > that they don't show their weakness. (I snip the rest but I find it just as relevant) > > Hermione is different, she is a GIRL (again emphasis on being a GIRL) > more mature and very upfront and straightforward. > > Apologizing for suspecting Lupin as a spy is a totally different > matter. Lupin's integrity as a whole was on the hot plate. Sirius > NEEDED to apologize, as he did (same goes for Lupin). > > Sirius probably thought that it'd be petty of Lupin to get offended > by his 'wish it was full moon' comment, (snip rest of relevant stuff) Del replies : OK, this time I see it :-) !! Seen that way, it makes sense to me. I'm not saying I couldn't still be right, but I can see how you could be right too. Thanks ! Bren also wrote: > But didn't Lupin say in Shrieking Shack, "And they didn't desert me > at all. Instead they did something for me that would make my > transformations not only bearable, but the best times of my life. > They became Animagi" (PoA, 258. UK) Del replies : Ouch ! One canon-hole in my ship ! Bren wrote : > Werewolves aren't danger to animals, so when they couldn't keep him > company as humans they did as animals. Exploring Hogwarts ground and > Forbidden Forest as animals is a *extremely* fun adventure -- even > for me, let alone hot-blooded over-their-own-heads boys. > > I think they all longed for that *special time of month* Del replies : All right, all right, you have a point for sure. I'm still not reading the Pensieve scene the way you present it, but I agree that you might read it more accurately than I do. Maybe. ;-) Del From pandrea100 at hotmail.com Wed Jul 7 17:34:26 2004 From: pandrea100 at hotmail.com (pandrea100) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 17:34:26 -0000 Subject: Think on This...... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104881 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Plinker" wrote: > What does the group consider the three MOST IMPORTANT things to watch > for in the next book? 1. Why Snape changed sides/why Dumbledore trusts him 2. Why Godric Gryffindor and Salazar Slytherin really fell out - yes, about pure blood teaching, but the full story of how this all played out 3. Something to do with the mirror Sirius left - maybe Harry will attempt to communicate with him, possible parallel to Voldemort's own investigations into the nature of death and how to overcome it, however Harry will resist the temptation Voldemort fell into and eventually realise he must accept Sirius' death (and his parents') Pandrea From kellyglessner at hotmail.com Wed Jul 7 17:30:02 2004 From: kellyglessner at hotmail.com (FrisbeeK) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 17:30:02 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle Question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104882 Do we know exactly what happened to Tom's parents in the time between when he went to Hogwarts and disappeared and when he went back and killed his father? Do we know what happened to his mother and whether or not the parents(with others or together) had other children? Just wondering if maybe LV's mom had a thing with a royal wizard and perhaps the HBP is Tom Riddle's half brother. I sort of assumed initially that half blood meant half muggle and half wizard; but what if it's all wizard but half common wizard and half royal? This is just speculation; but a brother could have easily been introduced in CoS but might have given too much away so JKR waited. Because she introduced us to Tom's family and gave us a hint of the type of childhood he had (similar to Harry's); but I don't remember her giving us a true picture of why Tom did what he did. What drove him to even want to live forever? Frisbeek - just wildly speculating here....=) From smartone56441070 at aol.com Wed Jul 7 18:16:53 2004 From: smartone56441070 at aol.com (smartone564) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 18:16:53 -0000 Subject: Potions O.W.L - Pass vs High-Pass In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104883 Steve wrote: > > First paragraph, Snape says that he expect EVERYONE to pass. That is, > > 'I expect you to scrape an 'Acceptable' in your OWL'. Implying that > > for any student not to pass is extremely rare. > > > > The third paragraph, 'concentrate ...upon maintaining the high-pass > > level'. Since a HUGE majority of students ARE going to pass, then he > > is implying the he expects the bulk of the student to do better than > > pass, he expects a 'high-pass'. > > The overal impression is that Snape's students are above average, > > which means 'B'-level or 'Exceed Expectations' is typcial, whereas, > > relative to the standard statistical cross-section or bell curve, the > > bulk of the student fall at 'C'-level or 'Acceptable'. Much earlier, someone said (Ali maybe?) that Snape may overwork his students. I can relate, as, in the American A-F grading system, I worked as hard as I could (... usually), and still got B's half the time, and scrapped A's the other (I believe the teacher helped, as most of the rest of the class). However, on my AP exam, i recieved a 5 on a 1-5 grading scale, in which 3 is passing, but 4/5 is what is required to skip at larger (more prestigious too) colleges. She did this on purpose to make us work harder in her class, so that when we take the final test, we do better because of how much harder we worked to get good grades in our class. In fact, I never finished the last question on the test (the most weighted too) but I still got the best grade available. However, this brings up two more questions I have. What is Neville gonna do after he graduates, and how is that going to be affected by his grade in Potions? Carol wrote: > Hermione will get a better grade (mark) for the *course,* > certainly--but not necessarily for the OWLS, on which Harry > undoubtedly did better than he thinks he did. For one thing, as > Umbridge of all people indicates, Snape's student are somewhat more > advanced than she (and probably the test administrators) expects them > to be. And finally, Harry got zero marks for some of his potions he tried to turn in, but got screwed over. So? It's not like students' parents recieve report cards, or atleast their has been no mention of it. So, what is the point of assigning homework? Is this just a way to maintain discipline, or am i just getting way too in depth here? Smart, who is sending this after getting rejected in an earlier thread. Who knew that there are post rules? = / From pcaehill2 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 7 18:32:56 2004 From: pcaehill2 at sbcglobal.net (pcaehill2) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 18:32:56 -0000 Subject: HBP Poll In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104884 Jocelyn wrote: > I voted other because I suspect... Viktor Krum me (Pam): I've wondered about Krum as well, although the theory that he might be HBP has been shot down since 1) he doesn't appear in Chamber of Secrets, and JKR has indicated that COS foreshadows Books 6 & 7 (esp. since HBP was originally the working title of COS, I believe) and 2) Krum is very likely to be pureblood, given Durmstrang's "slytherinesque" preoccupations. HOWEVER--I think that perhaps the tie-in to COS is not overt (hbp need not necessarily be a character from COS, that is), but covert, e.g., hbp is only found in the missing pages that JKR decided to wait and introduce in book 6. Speculation: these pages may have to do with the almost 30 years of Voldy's rise to power, before the years of terror. Additional speculation: these years may have been spent in some slavic country (Albania?--why was LV so quick to seek refuge there? Perhaps he'd already spent a great deal of time there, in the company of Durmstrang graduates? And a (surely not final) speculation: Perhaps the HBP is one of these slavic royal types, hobnobbing with the purebloods but not one with them in his sympathies? I also tend towards a European or East European prince, since OoP pointed out the need for the houses to stand together, and GoF (maybe indirectly) the need for "international magical cooperation" to defeat LV. Pam (loving all this digression) From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Jul 7 19:28:18 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 19:28:18 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104885 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pandrea100" > wrote: Potioncat: (with regard to Albus Percival Wolfric Brian > > Dumbledore): > > > > I just happened to wonder, is there a reason a person would > > have 4 given names? Pandrea: > > I think it's just for comic effect ... all those grand names and > > then 'Brian'! Geoff: I seem to recall that Brian has an honoured history in Ireland - hasn't it got royal connections or something similar? From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 19:34:05 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 19:34:05 -0000 Subject: Molly's Boggart (was Percy Weasley ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104886 Cathy wrote : > When Harry saw Mrs. Weasley facing the Boggart, the only two > people we don't see *dead* are Charlie and Ginny. vmonte responded : > She never saw herself (or Arthur) either. I think that she is the > one who is going to die. Del replies : She did see Arthur, she even moaned when she saw him. And she wouldn't see herself, because she's not as terrified to die as to losing those she loves. Even when she thinks that she might die herself, she doesn't care about herself, only about what would happen to her younger children. Del From irishwynch at aol.com Wed Jul 7 18:45:13 2004 From: irishwynch at aol.com (irishwynch at aol.com) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 14:45:13 EDT Subject: Galleons and Galleons o' fun. Message-ID: <20.2d9e2775.2e1d9eb9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104887 Lisa wrote: > Anyone have any theories on how Lily & James made their > money? I assume Sirius' wealth is family money- how else could > he, and not Harry, afford a Firebolt. It's stated in the HP Lexicon that James inherited his family's fortune. Marla From tzakis1225 at netzero.com Wed Jul 7 19:37:13 2004 From: tzakis1225 at netzero.com (demetra1225) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 19:37:13 -0000 Subject: Snape Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104888 > Alla: > > OK, people insist that "good" and " nice" somehow have to be the > opposite definitions. Why? [snip] Demetra: I look at it not as they are opposite, but they are not necessarily similar. > Alla: > So, the person who treats others with kindness is a bad person? I > believe that such person falls under the definition of "good" much > better than Snape. > > > Please don't argue the Fake!Moody example. He was just pretending > to be nice, he was not really. [snip] Demetra: That last paragraph says it all, to me. IMHO, people who are truly nice (like Lupin) are good people. But you can't assume that someone is good because they act nice. Evil, manipulative people can *act* nice to get what they want. After all, Tom Riddle was supposedly very charming, but you wouldn't call him good, would you? I think maybe JKR was trying to show us that first impressions can be wrong and we can't judge who is good/evil based on whether they are nice or pleasant to be around. Demetra - who believes that Snape nastiness is necessary for him to continue to play his role, but also believes that he thoroughly enjoys it. From saraandra at saraandra.plus.com Wed Jul 7 19:39:17 2004 From: saraandra at saraandra.plus.com (amanitamuscaria1) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 19:39:17 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_How_Rare_are_Muggle-borns=3F_and_Analysis_of_=93Purity=94_in_the_Order?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104889 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > > I apologize if this has been discussed before, > > but it seems to me that we have seen very few purely Muggle-born > > wizards throughout the books. I believe the only ones we can be > sure of are Hermione and Moaning Myrtle; is it likely that all of the > > students attacked in CoS were Muggle-born? Here are the attacks: > > AmanitaMuscaria now: Just a stray thought, but I'm not convinced all Muggle-borns are so. Consider that we have two examples of Muggles not taking the news that they've wed witches very happily. Now, I'm not saying that these instances are widely known about in the WW, only that other witches or wizards might be a bit more discreet about finding out their partners' thoughts before revealing their secret? Or perhaps performing a quick memory charm? So some of the children presented as Muggle-born may be half-bloods. Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria From pcaehill2 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 7 18:48:11 2004 From: pcaehill2 at sbcglobal.net (pcaehill2) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 18:48:11 -0000 Subject: Percy Weasley (was Re: Re: CoS clues to Books 6 & 7 analysis) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104890 Not sure re: Percy ending up in a Ludovic Bagman situation, that is, passing on info to the dark side without realizing it... But I'm convinced that since Percy will be needing to "eat crow" on 3 counts (first for abandoning his family, second for slandering Harry and third for the whole Crouch fiasco, which was never addressed, apparently, by the MoM)...and I'm thinking that Percy won't do so very gracefully. He's disgruntled enough by his dad not being politically or economically powerful, and only seems to understand superficial power (money, influence) vs. real power (imho, compassionate intelligence, wisdom, love, etc.)...which may set him up for a larger betrayal??? Pam From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Jul 7 19:41:30 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 19:41:30 -0000 Subject: I'm disappointed... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104891 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "quigonginger" wrote: > > David: > Why is Nackledirk *never > > > mentioned* in Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them, a work not > > > slow to describe the fauna of out-of-the-way spots? > > > > Geoff: > > Why should it be? Sounds more like a place to me. A sleepy English > > village buried in the lanes of Derbyshire with a quiet tea rooms > run > > by an old lady with wispy hair whose name is Hestia..... > > Ginger deadpans: > > Well, Geoff, I defer to your excellent knowledge of British > geography. You were the one who found Vauxhall Road, after all. Geoff: Give credit where it's due. Shaun did a lot of spadework on this - and at 12000 miles distance or so.... Ginger: > But I think the Nackledirk to which JKR is referring is the one in > Sweden, near which the Snorkacks are commonly found. Straight horned > ones, of course. The Crumpled horned ones are deep in hiding. Geoff: Out of shame I believe. They were pureblood straight horns but stupidly charged Volvos fitted with Side Impact Protection..... Ginger: > They > live in Norway near the Quirrel family home. Geoff: This is the branch of the Quirrell family whose patriarch is Samovar Quirrell Esq. They have bushy tails and live on Elven flets up trees. Geoff (who must thank Kneasy for post 104835 which must be the Kneasymail over which I have laughed more than any others!!) From drcarole71 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 18:50:56 2004 From: drcarole71 at yahoo.com (drcarole71) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 18:50:56 -0000 Subject: Harry's protected home Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104892 Unlikely prospect, but what would happen if the Order took over the Dursley's house, or brought the Dursley's to the Blacks' house? Carole From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 19:43:41 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 19:43:41 -0000 Subject: Think on This......my take In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104893 Pandrea's take on the three most important things to see in HBP: 1. Snape's history and why he changed sides; 2. Why Godric Gryffindor and Salazar Slytherin fell out; 3. Sirius's mirror. My take, in no order of importance; 1. Voldemort's history, if there is one, with the Evans's and Potters; 2. The backstory of the Evans and Potter families; 3. The future of the Minstry and wizard government in the War. From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Jul 7 19:44:32 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 19:44:32 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104894 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: Kneasy: > They were. A long line of troublemakers involved in plots and treason > for about 400 years. The last time was the Gunpowder Plot, I think. > > And their traditional enemies were the Nevilles. > > I did a post on it about a year ago (when I was fresh and innocent)- 60583. Geoff: That's very interesting. Percy and Neville traditional enemies. Hmmmm. Could this be a hint of things to come? From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Wed Jul 7 19:46:13 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 14:46:13 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's protected home Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104895 what would happen if the Order took over the Dursley's house, or brought the Dursley's to the Blacks' house? Carole Gina: I don't know, but it would be lovely to hear the Mrs. tell Vernon and Dudley what fat ugly muggles they are! Gina - who wants the Dudleys for once to feel out of place [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From entropymail at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 19:55:02 2004 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 19:55:02 -0000 Subject: Eastern European HBP? (was Re: HBP Poll) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104896 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pcaehill2" wrote: > And a (surely not final) speculation: Perhaps the HBP is one of these slavic royal types, hobnobbing with the purebloods but not one with them in his sympathies? I also tend towards a European or East European prince, since OoP pointed out the need for the houses to stand together, and GoF (maybe indirectly) the need for "international magical cooperation" to defeat LV. Pam (loving all this digression) Entropy:: I'm of the "Lupin as HBP" persuasion myself. However, I do agree that whoever the HBP turns out to be, it's a good possibility that his roots could be in Eastern Europe. We know: [1] Victor Krum's place on the Bulgarian Quidditch team [2] Krum and Karkaroff's Eastern European accents [3] Voldemort's exile to Albania [4] Prague was *the* alchemical hotspot of the 16th century (it was once known as "Magic Prague"), and alchemy has been shown to play a huge role in both the HP story and story structure. (Because of this, I'd guess that Durmstrang's secret location *is* Prague.) So it seems a pretty good guess to me that JKR intends to make this area of the world a significant one to the Wizarding World of Books 6 & 7. :: Entropy :: From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 19:56:40 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 19:56:40 -0000 Subject: Harry's protected home In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104897 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "drcarole71" wrote: > > Unlikely prospect, but what would happen if the Order took over the > Dursley's house, or brought the Dursley's to the Blacks' house? > Carole Why would you want to do that? Doesn't Sirius's mother make enough misery? I doubt Petunia would approve of Grimmauld Place's moth-eaten appearance. From textualsphinx2003 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 7 19:01:08 2004 From: textualsphinx2003 at yahoo.co.uk (textualsphinx2003) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 19:01:08 -0000 Subject: Moody vs Moody In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104898 Cathy wrote: > I have wondered, for some time, why FakeMoody spend so > much time teaching the Unforgivable Curses. He insisted > Harry keep trying to shake off the Imperious curse...put > him under it four times until he could get out of it > completely. Pam wrote: > ...And I always was under the impression that the fake moody > was "testing" out harry's powers, to see how well (or poorly) he'd > respond to the imperious curse, maybe to give voldy a "heads up" on > harry, along the lines of: "My Lord--H. seems unusually resistant > to the imperious; you may have to try something more intense, at > least until he learns occlumency..." (sheer speculation, of course) There is an interesting subconscious factor here. Barty Crouch the younger HATES the Imperius curse above the other Unforgiveables: he's had it done to him at his father's hands, for eleven years, and takes pride in learning to fight it. He even notes that his father learned to fight it - there's a peculiar emotional intensity about his attitude to it (the same can't be said for Crucio). Although his testing of Harry would have been strategic - keeping up the disguise and giving Voldemort the lowdown, I wonder if there's some tiny grain of existentialist sensibility in him that hates seeing people under Imperius *despite* the fact that he uses it without qualms on Victor and despite the fact that such a protest is at odds with where his loyalties lie. What's really interesting about Barty Crouch the younger is that he has certain 'good' qualities in spades - passionately loyal, very clever, a shrewd judge of people ('decent people are so easy to manipulate')and even an idea of honour - he hates a 'Death Eater who got away' not just because of sour grapes but because they were less faithful than he. And he actually loves Voldemort as a father. He wants to be dearer than a son. So all these potentially good things in him have been warped by something very, very simple - Crouch senior's failure to love his son. (Bring on the violins, ok...) It's still an extraordinary characterisation: Barty Crouch the younger appears to have sought in Voldemort everything his father couldn't/wouldn't give him, and it isn't power or wealth but acknowledgement, love and *freedom*. The opposite (to get back OT) of the Imperius curse. Tragic, appalling stuff. He's by far JKR's most brilliant 'minor' character and I can't wait to see the film actor sink his teeth into the role - assuming Kloves' script gives him the meat. Are there any fics out there of Barty Crouch the younger's year of living dangerously? From tzakis1225 at netzero.com Wed Jul 7 20:03:59 2004 From: tzakis1225 at netzero.com (demetra1225) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 20:03:59 -0000 Subject: Pity for Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104899 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: {snip} > First he's an orphan who was raised in an orphanage.[snip] > Third, all the time he spends looking for the CoS makes me feel that > he was craving a feeling of *belonging*, of *family*. [snip] Demetra: Your post made me think again about how closely Tom Riddle's childhood was to Harry's. Both orphans, raised in an environment of abuse/indifference. We know Harry's deepest desire was a *family*, Tom's may have been also. Yet, look where their life paths have taken them and how differently they have turned out. Tom stayed focused on only himself, his needs and his desire for revenge. Harry, on the other hand, cares about others, sometimes putting others needs before his own safety. He has empathy for other's suffering (like Luna having her belongings taken, etc). I think this ability to empathize (which is a form of love) is the quality that Harry has in abundance. Alla wrote previously: > > Will Harry decide that Voldemort or Tom deserves his pity? I am > > afraid yes that that is where JKR is going. Demetra: Yes, I think that JKR is going in that direction. Harry will see the boy Tom was and what he has become and think there but for the grace of God, go I. From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 20:08:52 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 20:08:52 -0000 Subject: Harry's protected home In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104900 Jim wrote: Why would you want to do that? Doesn't Sirius's mother make enough misery? I doubt Petunia would approve of Grimmauld Place's moth-eaten appearance. vmonte responds: You are right that she wouldn't approve of GP, but I bet the house would be clean within 24 hours. vivian :) From anmsmom333 at cox.net Wed Jul 7 20:10:46 2004 From: anmsmom333 at cox.net (Theresa) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 20:10:46 -0000 Subject: What killed the Riddles? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104901 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jelly92784" wrote: > wrote: > > I've always supposed that the 3 Riddles were killed by a AK curse, > but > > I was comparing their deaths with that of Cedric, and noticed a > small > > discrepancy. They were said to be found with a look of terror on > > their faces, as if frightened to death. Yet when we've seen an AK > in > > action, on Cedric, it isn't described that way - Harry looks at "his > > open grey eyes, blank and expressionless as the windows of a > deserted > > house, at his half-open mouth, which looked slightly surprised." > > > Now me: > I think that their expressions had to do with the situation facing > them, although in both cases it was death due to AK, it was very > different for the riddles and cedric. Cedric and Harry were thinking > that the cup being a portkey was a part of the last task of the > tournament, as far as we know cedric's life wasn't full of danger > like Harry's was and this was probably the last thing that he > expected, therefore, he was 'surprised' and probably not quite > comprehending what was happening. > > We know less about the case of the Riddles. I assume that the > teenage boy that they saw was Tom, and although they probably had > rarely, if ever, seen him before my guess is that he might've gone in > there and told them exactly who he was and what he was going to do to > them, and then he did it. The riddles would've been terrified. > > I guess in general what i'm saying is that it's not the curse that > leaves a certain expression on the victim's face, but the > circumstances surrounding the curse and what the victim is > experiencing. > > thoughts? > > Janelle This is a rather interesting question. I had always thought Tom had used AK but since they were muggles and here was this wizard who obviously hated them, that they were frightened as it hit them, hence their expression. Also, not having my copy of my book here at work, what was Frank's expression when he hit the floor in GOF? I remember the icky thing in the chair scared him before he was cursed but I don't recall if it says his expression was of fear. Plus I don't think Cedric had time to react to the curse. Harry and Cedric showed up in the graveyard and were still figuring things out when boom - here comes a guy and down Cedric goes. So maybe some people do look frightened. I believe they did not know who he was as in CoS he mentioned to Headmaster Dippert about not wanting to go back to the orphanage if the school shutdown. I figured his mom died in childbirth, and his dad never acknowledged him so he was sent to the orphanage. And being a wizard that caused a few problems growing up so his hatred grew for his father. I imagine he was quite scary when he showed up there. I know if I were them I would have been quite afraid. Especially, if Tom Sr knew what Tom Jr's mum was capable of doing. The only other thought I had if it was not AK was maybe a dementor accompanied Tom Jr. I am not sure how friendly (I know odd word to use with dementors) they were with Voldemort during the first war. I know Dumbledore says in GOF that they might ally with Voldemort so they should be removed from Azkaban. I think my vote is still on the AK though. Theresa From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Wed Jul 7 20:17:35 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 15:17:35 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I'm disappointed... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104902 Harry, little realising that the fate of world chiropody and methane production lies in his hands, never wonders why Luna and her father are so keen to get to Sweden. Though the exploding cauldron that killed her mother could put him on the scent, a sort of singed scent.... Gina: * ................. leads him to the bathroom stomping ground of Moaning Murtle who tells him that a few years ago someone threw a rather large kettle at her head, but when she turned to throw it back she saw no one and thus flushed it down the toilet! Harry then realizes he must get some more Gillyweed from Dobby - only to find that the Mer people never actually had the kettle because it was intercepted by the giant squid who swallowed it but did not like the taste of earwax that remained inside and spit it out of the lake into a stream that leads to Sweden... Harry runs to Luna begging her to allow him, Ron, and Hermione to accompany her and her father to Sweden. Luna is surprised, but delighted and agrees on one condition - that Hermione admit she was wrong about the Crumple Horned Snorkack..... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From greatelderone at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 20:18:17 2004 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 20:18:17 -0000 Subject: Why would Lily be spared? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104903 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eustace_Scrubb" wrote: > Eustace_Scrubb again: > At Godric's Hollow, I think Voldemort was completely focused on one > thing, killing Harry. I don't think he was worried that either James > or Lily could actually harm him (they'd defied him, but they couldn't > vanquish him), so their resistance--their very presence--was nothing > more than a nuisance. GEO: And he didn't kill them? Remember he killed Cedric for even less of a reason and judging from GoF he had whole houses put to the wand. Given his track record I find that extremely ooc. > > As I see it, he finished off James, who annoyingly and quite futilely > attempted to resist with his wand. Then Voldemort ran to the baby's > room, eager to complete the mission, only to find Lily standing in his > way. So he told her to get out of the way, not out of mercy, not > because of some deal he'd made, but out of exasperation. > > And then he _did_ kill her. I don't think he stood there and said, > "If you're not out of here in 5 minutes you're toast!" I think it was > a matter of seconds. GEO: Why didn't he just blast her with his wand instead of actually using words first to intimidate her and have her step aside. The former would have been much quicker. Yet why the latter given his known ruthlessness. > To one unfamiliar with love, who > believes there's nothing worse than death, this would have made > perfect sense. GEO: He may not understand love, but he probably does have a good understanding of heroes and patterns and seeing how James died to protect his family how could he think that the mother wouldn't do the same? From katiebug1233 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 19:15:11 2004 From: katiebug1233 at yahoo.com (Kate) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 19:15:11 -0000 Subject: CoS question was: Re: Dumbledore evil?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104904 I don't think that Dumbledore is in any way evil. If for some reason it came out that he wasn't trustworthy, I think the integrity of the series would be completely shot. In interviews JK has stated that there are 2 infallible characters, DD and Hermione, that she uses to convey truths to the readers. Something that I don't understand personally is why 3 second year students could work out where the Chamber of Secrets is in the 2nd book when all the professors together didn't know where it was. Does anyone else find this a little tough to accept? From jlawlor at gmail.com Wed Jul 7 19:15:43 2004 From: jlawlor at gmail.com (James Lawlor) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 14:15:43 -0500 Subject: Snape Question In-Reply-To: <20040707171831.75987.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040707171831.75987.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <96773c8804070712154ba66b94@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104905 enderbean wrote: > Harry's parents were killed on October 31, 1981 > when Harry was 1, right? School starts _before_ > that in September. It would seem that Snape started > teaching a month before the Potters were attacked. > So he probably rejoined the good side before or > around that time quite possibly to play a double > agent. I think it's clear that Snape rejoined the Order before the Potters were attacked. In the first chapter of PS/SS it's clear that everybody in the WW knows that Voldemort is gone very quickly after the attack on the Potters (How is an interesting question - perhaps Voldemort's original (using the term loosely, heh) body was found in Godric's Hollow?). In the Pensieve scene in GoF we see Dumbledore defending Snape to the Wizengamot, reminding them that he came clean *before* Voldemort's downfall (unlike, say, Malfoy). It obviously took time to catch the remaining Death Eaters and organize trials, but it doesn't seem likely that Dumbledore would have argued a technicality like that (if he had come back immediatly after the Potters' murder or just before most of the DEs were caught or gave themselves up). - James Lawlor jlawlor at gmail.com From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 20:28:41 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 20:28:41 -0000 Subject: Harry & his potions O.W.L In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104906 > Asha wrote: > > During my GCSEs and my A levels, none of my subject teachers actually > invigilated the exam room. I remember asking about it and one of them > telling me that it's a common enough practice that teachers don't > invigilate their subjects in case they gave a student an extra push in > the right direction. > > Jekatiska: Or the wrong direction in Harry's and Neville's cases... ;) Carol: I doubt that Snape would push any of his students in the wrong direction if he were allowed to proctor (invigilate) the potions OWLS if only because their success reflects on his skill as a teacher--which IMO is one reason why he pushes them and teaches at a somewhat higher level than the MoM recommends. I also think that, because he's on Dumbledore's side and is fighting Voldemort in his own way, he *wants* Harry (and Neville) to succeed. He just doesn't want them or the Slytherins to *know* that's what he wants. True, Snape dislikes and distrusts Harry, but he also wants him to learn what he needs to know. How else will they win the war? Carol, who has a feeling that Potions will somehow come in handy in the next book or two From pcaehill2 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 7 20:03:43 2004 From: pcaehill2 at sbcglobal.net (pcaehill2) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 20:03:43 -0000 Subject: Harry's protected home In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104907 "drcarole71" wrote: > > > > Unlikely prospect, but what would happen if the Order took over the Dursley's house, or brought the Dursley's to the Blacks' house? >>Carole "Jim Ferer" wrote: > Why would you want to do that? Doesn't Sirius's mother make enough > misery? I doubt Petunia would approve of Grimmauld Place's moth- eaten appearance. me (Pam): Yes, but I think Petunia would do **anything** to protect Dudley, so it's not out of the question, in my mind. Pam (also convinced that "remember my last" refers to DD writing that the Dursleys must provide safe harbor for Harry in order for Dudley to be protected, as well, but not sure why?) From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 20:34:49 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 20:34:49 -0000 Subject: Defending Percy ( was Percy Weasley ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104908 Pam wrote : > But I'm convinced that since Percy will be needing to "eat crow" on > 3 counts (first for abandoning his family, second for slandering > Harry and third for the whole Crouch fiasco, which was never > addressed, apparently, by the MoM)... Del replies : I posted some time ago to defend Percy, saying that he's only a true Weasley, and not evil or a traitor (post number 97645). I'll be using bits of that post to defend Percy here, but I invite whoever has a bad opinion of Percy to go and look at that post, you might be surprised, at least for a minute ;-) Percy did not abandon his family. He distanced himself from people who were accusing him of being a blind, stupid pawn, while not giving him any proof of it. He was protecting himself, just like I would if somebody said nasty things to me for no obvious reason. Percy did not slander Harry, he tried to protect Ron. As far as he knew, Harry was indeed a liar. There was indeed a Crouch fiasco, but definitely not on Percy's side. Percy was the last person at the MoM to be able to identify that Mr Crouch was not acting normally, while many of Crouch's colleagues, starting with Fudge and Bagman, should have seen that. And even if Percy had a suspicion, he simply couldn't go and blab on his superior, that wasn't his role as a brand new assistant. And finally, Percy seems to have done a very good job at taking over Mr Crouch's work, showing himself to be a very capable young man. The only fiasco came from the top people at the MoM, who were unable to see, for the second time in a year, that something was seriously wrong with one of their people (first Bertha, then Crouch). Pam wrote : > and I'm thinking that Percy won't do so very gracefully. He's > disgruntled enough by his dad not being politically or economically > powerful, and only seems to understand superficial power (money, > influence) vs. real power (imho, compassionate intelligence, wisdom, > love, etc.)...which may set him up for a larger betrayal??? Del replies : Percy only once mentioned money as a problem, and that was after his own father accused him of, basically, being stupid, and refused to see his professional accomplishment. Percy was upset, and let some bad words out. Big deal. It surely isn't enough to conclude that Percy values money over love. A betrayal ? Sure, could be. Nobody's perfect. *Everyone* could turn traitor, given the right incentive, so why not Percy ? Del From smartone56441070 at aol.com Wed Jul 7 19:26:42 2004 From: smartone56441070 at aol.com (smartone564) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 19:26:42 -0000 Subject: Harry's Blood Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104909 Alright, I apologize ahead for this, but I have to say this: DD talked about how Harry was protected by his mother, and that as long as he can call the Dursleys house home, he will be safe there. Also, there is something about protected wherever his mother's blood resides. Since LV used Harry's blood at the GY (graveyard scene), wouldn't this protection reside with LV too? I am not too sure how the quote went exactly, and my mind is too cloudy to look it up properly in a book, and my computer can hardly handle the strain of popping around sites like that (and yes, it doesn't appreciate me reading posts like this either). Smart From fienxjox at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 19:28:09 2004 From: fienxjox at yahoo.com (fienxjox) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 19:28:09 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104910 Frisbeek wrote: > Just wondering if maybe LV's mom had a thing with a royal wizard and > perhaps the HBP is Tom Riddle's half brother. I sort of assumed > initially that half blood meant half muggle and half wizard; but > what if it's all wizard but half common wizard and half royal? I think the "LV is the last desendant of S" kinda discounts this (assuming of course the blood came from his mother's side). fx From sophierom at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 20:35:08 2004 From: sophierom at yahoo.com (sophierom) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 20:35:08 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Process (was: names - Percy and Ginny / Percy Weasley) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104911 > Cathy Drolet at cldrolet at s... wrote: > > > I live with the person who JKR could have used as a model for Percy. My > > 'Percy' would NEVER go back to the family after making such an idiot of > > himself. He has too much to apologise for and simply would not lower himself > > to say 'know what folks, I was wrong." No courage. Jocelyn wrote: > Hmmm. Well the omens, if what we have been discussing about names is true, > are not good for him returning manfully to the Weasley fold. I hate to > think that the hat was so wrong, but after all, it is just a hat! *G* I > wonder why it _didn't_ put him in Slytherin. Perhaps his ambition was not > so developed at age 11. Sophierom: I wonder if the hat suggested to Percy, like Harry, that he was supposed to go into Slytherin, but Percy, also like Harry, talked the hat into sorting him into Gryffindor. While Harry chooses Gryffindor because he's heard (and seen) bad things about the Slytherin House members, perhaps Percy chose Gryffindor because he believed it was expected of him. If I remember correctly, doesn't Ron mention something about his whole family being in Gryffindor? Maybe Percy feels that's where he's supposed to go, even if he may have tendencies that lead him in another direction. This makes me wonder: How much choice does a person have in the sorting process? My inclination is that the students might actually have a good deal of say over where they get sorted. What i mean is that for students like Draco, who simply assume they're going to be placed in a certain house, the hat simply chooses what that student already believes to be true. For the students like Harry (and perhaps Percy? Neville? Hermione?), who are perhaps less certain of who they are (or less willing to be pigeon-holed), the hat actually engages in the same sort of internal dialogue we see with Harry. But, in the process of this dialogue, the student chooses his own course. In either case, it seems to be the student who ultimately sorts himself, whether for good or ill. (I don't think Percy benefited from being a Gryffindor, for example. Perhaps if he could openly admit his ambition for power, he might be better off than masking it with self-righteousness.) I wish I knew more about Peter Pettigrew's background ... he seems like another "mis- sorted" Gryffindor. Did he also choose to be in Gryffindor? Pettigrew does follow Black alphabetically ... did he meet sirius on the train and, in a fit of hero worship, choose a house that was acutally ill suited for him? Or, did his family also expect him to be a Gryffindor when he was really a Hufflepuff or a Slytherin? Had he been sorted into another house, would he have been able to avoid the lure of Voldemort? Though we don't know yet what Percy's fate holds, it seems that Gryffindor is a particularly bad house for those like Percy and Peter - wizards we might call "other directed" to borrow a term from sociologist David Riesman. The other-directed desires to be loved, admired, and, in the extreme form, does whatever he can in order to please others. Perhaps Peter and Percy seek power not so much for themselves but for the approval of others. And who might the other-directed wizards want to please and impress? Why, those with the most power, the most authority in their lives. Peter tells LV about the Potters. Later, he gives up his hand in order to please Voldemort. Perhaps Percy, at age 11, chooses Gryffindor, studies hard, aspires to be head boy, because his parents (particularly Molly?) want him to succeed. When Percy gets older and his authority figures change, so do his loyalties (in which case, it wasn't courage that led him to break with his parents but a greater desire to please Fudge and the Ministry than to please his parents). We see this shift in loyalties throughout GoF. The big question is: whose approval will he seek in HBP? The new administration (and if this new administration is friendlier with Dumbledore and the Order, will Percy come crawling back to his family?)? Or, dare I suggest it, will Percy come to believe, like Peter did in the first war, that the ultimate authority figure is Voldemort, and will Percy seek his approval next? I hope not. In any case, if the sorting process allows for some student choice, I think both Peter and Percy chose Gryffindor for the wrong reasons, and it probably hurt them in the long run. They would have been better off in a house that could curb (but not necessarily destroy) their tendencies to seek approval. Being other-directed, after all, is not such a bad thing; those people who care nothing about pleasing others (Sirius? and, don't kill me for mentioning him in the same parenthesis, but ... Tom Riddle?) can be dangerous to htemselves or to society. Obviously, there needs to be a good middle ground between following one's own desires and following the desires of a larger society. Peter never found that middle ground. Hopefully, Percy will. Sophierom From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Wed Jul 7 20:41:47 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 20:41:47 -0000 Subject: Harry's protected home In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104912 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "drcarole71" wrote: > > Unlikely prospect, but what would happen if the Order took over the > Dursley's house, or brought the Dursley's to the Blacks' house? > Carole Petunia might find lifetime fulfilment by actually succeeding in getting GP clean! Wanda From pcaehill2 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 7 20:29:48 2004 From: pcaehill2 at sbcglobal.net (pcaehill2) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 20:29:48 -0000 Subject: Family (Was "Pity for Voldemort") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104913 "delwynmarch" wrote: > > First he's an orphan who was raised in an orphanage.[snip] > > Third, all the time he spends looking for the CoS makes me feel that he was craving a feeling of *belonging*, of *family*. [snip] > Demetra wrote:[snip] > Your post made me think again about how closely Tom Riddle's > childhood was to Harry's. Both orphans, raised in an environment of abuse/indifference. We know Harry's deepest desire was a *family*, Tom's may have been also. [snip] > Harry will see the boy Tom was and what he has become and think there but for the grace of God, go I. I agree, Demetra. I think that finding a family (or being found by one, as Harry was by the Weasley's) is a major theme here. In fact, if you examine the folks from loving families alongside those folks from families who put the 'fun' in 'dysfunctional', you get a picture not of doom (e.g., if you don't have loving parents you'll end up evil) but of the power of choosing to be *related* to others-- this is what makes Harry so different from Tom, Barty Crouch Jr., and even Percy. (And may be why Percy's rejection of his family is so key to his character.) Tom's & Barty's lack of a loving home feeds their anger, sense of betrayal/loss, etc. But they each choose to nurse this resentment, and seek to fill the gap with things that won't (ultimately) assuage their real hurts. Barty ironically seeks a father figure in Tom, the least likely candidate for such a role! (I'm reminded of the phrase, "you can't buy oranges in a hardware store"!) But even if choice, as DD emphasizes, is crucial to character, it's not necessarily damning--I don't think JKR is painting a world wherein the 'evil' people can be written off as less than human. I think Harry will see how close he has come to making rash and angry choices that could have ended disastrously. And this insight may feed his empathy for those who chose anger, isolation, and 'false' family (e.g., death-eaters). Empathy does not equal refraining from punishment, however--crimes have consequences. LV will die. But how does Harry keep from seeing himself as a murderer, lowering himself to LV's level, if he's to fulfill the prophecy? I have no idea. Pam (who thinks that Darth Vader made a fake deathbed conversion, which Luke should never have fallen for) From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 20:43:50 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 20:43:50 -0000 Subject: Harry's potions O.W.L - Outstanding-NOT. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104914 > Potioncat: > Another possibility, which I recall from an earlier discussion along > this line, is that JKR may be making her own comment about education > policies in general. We'll have to see how the OWLs pan out to see > if she is making some sort of statement. Carol: If JKR were American, I'd be almost certain that she was using Umbridge to protest government (or National Education Association) interference in education. I don't know if anything of the sort is going on in Britain, but the title High Inquisitor suggests to me that she's cleaning out the "infidels"--those who don't follow government policy. I'm reminded of Joan of Arc--ironic that the medieval inquisitions burned witches but this one is conducted by a witch. (The pink cardigan and the hairbow suggest that she's Muggleborn--maybe she's the antithesis of Hermione, the good and talented Muggleborn?) Carol From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Wed Jul 7 20:26:39 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 16:26:39 -0400 Subject: Tom Riddle Question Message-ID: <001701c46460$b5d59d10$09c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 104915 Frisbeek "Do we know exactly what happened to Tom's parents in the time between when he went to Hogwarts and disappeared and when he went back and killed his father? Do we know what happened to his mother and whether or not the parents(with others or together) had other children?" Tom Riddle's Mother died in childbirth (Tom's birth) and lived only long enough to name him according to CoS and the orphanage where Tom was raised. Tom's father had left his mother after they were married when she told him she was a witch. In CoS Tom told Harry that his father didn't like magic. In GoF (I think) it says that Tom Sr went back to live with his parents after the he left his wife. What he did for the next 17 years, until Tom came to Little Hangleton and killed him and his grandparents, we do not know, except that they were rich. Cathy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From meriaugust at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 20:45:16 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 20:45:16 -0000 Subject: Harry's protected home In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104916 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "drcarole71" wrote: > > Unlikely prospect, but what would happen if the Order took over the > Dursley's house, or brought the Dursley's to the Blacks' house? > Carole The only reason I can see the Oder taking over No. 4 Privet would be if No. 12 Grimmauld was no longer safe. Which could probably happen if someone other than Harry or an Order sympathizer like Lupin or Tonks (a Malfoy, say) inherits the place, screaming mother portrait and all. Barring that, the Order can now resist LV in the open, so maybe a secret headquarters isn't so much nessecary anymore. As to the Dursley's being taken to No. 12, I can see that happening, actually. Should Privet Drive be attacked (entailing Harry's shortest stay at the place), the Dursleys would surely be in danger, especially since Petunia seems to know more than she lets on about the WW anyway. Perhaps Harry, in a burst of newfound compassion following the loss of his godfather and not wanting to see any more of his relations die (even the Dursleys), asks that his relations be sheltered. Or perhaps that was part of Petunia and DD's arrangement: The Dursleys will take in Harry and seal the blood protection and, should they ever need it, they will be protected by the WW. Harry could have unwittingly helped with that possible clause when he saved Dudley from the dementors, which would also help to explain why DD told Petunia in the Howler to remember his last (read it like this: you've taken in Harry, and you can't just chuck him out now that one of us has saved your son). Wow, for a one sentence question I wrote a rather long answer. Meri - who really wants to know what the effects of the Dementor attack might have on Dudley... From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 20:12:04 2004 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 20:12:04 -0000 Subject: Ringdear of the Marauders: Sirius or James? (was Kreacher the Murderer) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104917 Bren: > I think some, if not many, were speculating that Sirius had a crush > on James, shrug. He strikes me as a typical bloke, jock, a WOMANIZER > than anything. > > I'm very curious to see if JKR would explore on the issue of > homosexuality. It will be most definitely interesting to see how she > will tackle this *addressed to children*. Katie: Wayyy back, somebody posted a message to the effect of "I don't see why JKR would put homosexual characters in the books. It wouldn't add anything to the series." A rather common sentiment, actually, and one I absolutely loathe. I mean, imagine putting any other minority in that sentence. Anyway.. I read Sirius and Lupin as gay (in OOTP). Perhaps reading too much between the lines, but it seems evident to me. I find your comment about Sirius being a womanizer interesting, though, as I don't see two words indicating such in the text. Certainly he *seems* like the type (Byronic, dangerous, good-looking) but I don't see any evidence. I doubt she'd tackle the issue more directly than that, given the conniptions fundamentalists went into over something like *magic* in the books. Poor JKR is in the uncomfortable position of writing a book that children will read, but that is directed just as much at adults. -Katie From sad1199 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 20:22:11 2004 From: sad1199 at yahoo.com (sad1199) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 20:22:11 -0000 Subject: Movie PoA Foreshadows Books 6 & 7 In-Reply-To: <65.2daba6b0.2e1cf536@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104918 Melissa: > Could Hermione's mysterious core be from Fawlkes mate? > (Presumming, of course, that Hermione's wand core is important later in the > story) I don't think Hermione's wand could have a Phoenix feather in it. Supposedly HP and LV are two of the strongest wizards ever and they share Fawlkes' feathers. Why would Hermione have a stronger wand than either of them? Also, what does Dumbledore have in his wand? One more, is Hermione's wand only stronger when Harry uses it (proving his wizard greatness)? Why isn't it stronger than most when Hermione uses it? Sad1199 From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Wed Jul 7 20:22:49 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 16:22:49 -0400 Subject: Percy Weasley Message-ID: <000e01c46460$2da51c90$09c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 104919 vmonte says: "She never saw herself (or Arthur) either. I think that she is the one who is going to die.: Quote from the book, OP, "Mr Weasley's body replaced Bill's, his glasses askew, a trickle of blood running down his face." No, she didn't see herself, but she is clearly upset that she's dreaming about them dying, she sees them dead all the time, she says. She wouldn't *see* herself dead, as she'd be, well, dead. Personally, although what I posted to start this thread goes against my theory, I think Ron is going to die. I don't know why I think that but I believe a time will come when Harry will have to save someone, probably Draco, but maybe Snape, and end up losing Ron. Like Gandalf in ROTK...he had to decide whether to save Faramir or Theoden but regardless of his choice he was going to lose the other. (I feel JKR is writing Ron out of Harry's life and writing Hermione in...not that I think they will have a boyfriend/girlfried relationship...just a weird feeling I get.) Cathy---who would not be the least bit upset if any of her theories are wrong, especialy the ones where I think someone like Ron, who I adore, is going to buy the farm... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 20:24:30 2004 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 20:24:30 -0000 Subject: CoS question was: Re: Dumbledore evil?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104920 Kate: > In interviews JK has stated > that there are 2 infallible characters, DD and Hermione, that she > uses to convey truths to the readers. Katie (me): Wow, she actually says that? "Infallible" just doesn't seem like the right word, as Hermione and Dumbledore have both already made mistakes... in Dumbledore's case, some BIG mistakes. They do in fact convey truths, though. -Katie who hopes she hasn't caused name confusion :) From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 20:53:04 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 20:53:04 -0000 Subject: Pity for Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104921 Demetra wrote : > Your post made me think again about how closely Tom Riddle's > childhood was to Harry's. Both orphans, raised in an environment of > abuse/indifference. We know Harry's deepest desire was a *family*, > Tom's may have been also. Del replies : Technically, there's still a big difference between Harry and Tom. Harry was loved by his parents during 15 precious months. He could bond with them, and he even had a love-charm put on him by his mother who died for him. Tom had none of that as far as we know. 15 months might not seem like a big deal, but they are. Demetra wrote : > Yet, look where their life paths have taken them and how differently > they have turned out. Tom stayed focused on only himself, his needs > and his desire for revenge. Harry, on the other hand, cares about > others, sometimes putting others needs before his own safety. Del replies : There are quite a few things that have to be taken into account. Harry was lucky to find 2 true friends right away. Without the stabilising and soothing influence of Ron and Hermione, who knows where he would be now ? We don't know that Tom didn't have friends, but we do know that he was a half-blood in a House that despises them. He was an orphan in a House of old families. He had nothing, in a House of rich kids. He had a Muggle name, in a House of pureblood aristocrats. He was nobody, in a House of Big Names. Harry, on the other hand, had a good name, a good history, and a good reputation when he arrived at Hogwarts. He kept being told that he rightfully belonged in the WW even though he didn't know why. He had an identity. Tom was nobody, until he discovered he was the Heir of Slytherin. How could he resist that offer for an *identity*, and a famous one, a noble one, too ? So yes there are similarities between Harry and Tom's lives, but there are also glaring differences : Harry was always Someone (he might not like it, but at least he always had an identity) while Tom was Nobody. It might explain A LOT of things in their respective choices. Del From jelly92784 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 20:54:05 2004 From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (jelly92784) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 20:54:05 -0000 Subject: What killed the Riddles? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104922 Theresa: > The only other thought I had if it was not AK was maybe a dementor > accompanied Tom Jr. I am not sure how friendly (I know odd word to > use with dementors) they were with Voldemort during the first war. I > know Dumbledore says in GOF that they might ally with Voldemort so > they should be removed from Azkaban. > I think my vote is still on the AK though. > I agree with you that AK is most likely. If it had been dementors then the riddles wouldn't actually be dead, they would still be alive, just without their souls. Janelle From fienxjox at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 20:12:49 2004 From: fienxjox at yahoo.com (fienxjox) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 20:12:49 -0000 Subject: Harry's protected home In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104923 Jim wrote: Why would you want to do that? Doesn't Sirius's mother make enough misery? I doubt Petunia would approve of Grimmauld Place's moth-eaten appearance. vmonte responded: You are right that she wouldn't approve of GP, but I bet the house would be clean within 24 hours. Fx responds: This would (me thinks) be highly entertaining given the nature of the condition of the house. Exactly how effective would Petunia be against some of the more "intresting" items and/or creatures infesting GP? Would be fun tho (for the reader of course) Fx From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Jul 7 21:15:51 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 21:15:51 -0000 Subject: I'm disappointed... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104924 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miller, Gina (JIS)" wrote: > Harry, little realising that the fate of world chiropody and methane > production lies in his hands, never wonders why Luna and her father are > so keen to get to Sweden. Though the exploding cauldron that killed > her mother could put him on the scent, a sort of singed scent.... > > Gina: > * ................. leads him to the bathroom stomping ground of > Moaning Murtle who tells him that a few years ago someone threw a rather > large kettle at her head, but when she turned to throw it back she saw no > one and thus flushed it down the toilet! Harry then realizes he must get > some more Gillyweed from Dobby - only to find that the Mer people never > actually had the kettle because it was intercepted by the giant squid who > swallowed it but did not like the taste of earwax that remained inside and > spit it out of the lake into a stream that leads to Sweden... Harry runs to > Luna begging her to allow him, Ron, and Hermione to accompany her and her > father to Sweden. Luna is surprised, but delighted and agrees on one > condition - that Hermione admit she was wrong about the Crumple Horned > Snorkack..... Kneasy: ....though little suspecting that Crumple Horned Snorkacks rapidly became extinct with the introduction of Ma Prendergast's Patented Horn Straightener and Bugle Polish. Hermione sat tight-lipped as Ron practised his ventriloquism from under Harry's invisibility cloak. All was well; Luna was as gullible as ever, and the assurance that "Gruntle orn snokacksh - s'good. Have a Guttergeer," won her over. Searching the Map for the underground passage that leads down to the stream whose source lay in Scandanavia, they failed to notice that they were being observed. From behind a slime-spewn rock, a pair of cold, slightly proturberant eyes observed their every move. Ron loading up with lucky charms; Hermione regretfully casting aside "Hogwarts, a History" and arming herself with that seminal tome "European Rarities, vol IX, the Swedish Pub"; Harry piling a 4-man tent, collapsible broomstick, the entire contents of Honeydukes stockroom and a crate of "Viva!Restorer; as endorsed by Someone who can't be Named" onto Dobby, his emanuensis - these eyes missed nothing. Nearly time to come out of hiding....nearly time to stun the world with the power of....Toadmaster! Trevor (for it is he), pondered his next move..... From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Jul 7 21:27:07 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 21:27:07 -0000 Subject: What killed the Riddles? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104925 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Theresa" wrote: Theresa: > This is a rather interesting question. I had always thought Tom had > used AK but since they were muggles and here was this wizard who > obviously hated them, that they were frightened as it hit them, hence > their expression. Geoff: I suspect that they knew that Tom was going to finish them off and had time to react with horror. Theresa: > Also, not having my copy of my book here at work, > what was Frank's expression when he hit the floor in GOF? I remember > the icky thing in the chair scared him before he was cursed but I > don't recall if it says his expression was of fear. Geoff: His expression is not mentioned... 'And then the chair was facing Frank and he saw what was sitting in it. His walking stick fell to the floor with a clatter. He opened his mouth and let out a scream. He was screaming so loudly that he never heard the words the thing in the chair spoke as it raised a wand. There was a flash of gren light, a rushing sound and Frank Bryce crumpled. He was dead before he hit the floor.' (GOF "The Riddle House" p.19 UK edition) Theresa: > Plus I don't think Cedric had time to react to the curse. Harry > and Cedric showed up in the graveyard and were still figuring > things out when boom - here comes a guy and down Cedric goes. Geoff: I don't think he even had time to fully register what was said. 'From far away above his head, he (Harry) heard a high cold voice say, "Kill the spare." A swishing noise and a second voice which screeched the words to the night: "Avada Kedavra"' (GOF "Flesh, Blood and Bone" p.553 UK edition) He was probably still thinking "spare? what's he mean - spare" when the curse hit him. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 21:29:32 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 21:29:32 -0000 Subject: New characters in Book 6 (Was: JKR says no, and she's no Dobby) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104926 Asian_lovr2 (Steve) wrote: The point is, given the fact that we are running out of books, it's time to start wrapping things up. It's time to resolve Tom Riddle's backstory, it's time to resolve the night of Godric's Hollow, it's time to expand the story for the purpose of wrapping things up, not wasting countless pages on new Lockhart/Umbridge-type characters, or wasting it on secondary character who have no potential to resolve the overal story. with Snape as DADA teacher and Tom Riddle as the Half Blood Prince, we open the door for a great deal of important story to be told. Without that, or with new characters, we are bogged down with 'cannon fodder' characters and wasted pages. Carol: If the pattern of the DADA teacher dying or losing his/her job at the end of the book holds true, Snape can't be the DADA teacher in Book 6, as JKR has stated in an interview that he'll play a key role in Book 7. (If he becomes DADA teacher in Book 7, I'll worry about his survival. As it is, we have what amounts to a promise that he'll survive past the end of Book 6.) I know you haven't forgotten this exchange, but others may not be familiar with it: Q: "There's an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape." JKR: "He, um, there's so much I wish I could say to you, and I can't because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that I'm slightly stunned that you've said that and you'll find out why I'm so stunned if you read Book 7. That's all I'm going to say." Complete interview at http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1999/1099-connectiontransc.html So for good or for ill, Snape will be around in Book 7 and there's no good reason to make him the DADA teacher now (unless Harry isn't taking NEWT Potions and I don't think that will happen, but I won't get sidetracked on that here). That said, I think the pattern of a new DADA teacher for each book will also hold true, leaving open the possibility that the DADA teacher is the HBP. Admittedly, it's hard to make a connection between a new character in HBP and the content of CoS, which originally had that title, but here's a wild bit of speculation (I won't dignify it by calling it a theory): Maybe Gilderoy ("gilded king") Lockhart was originally intended as the name of the HBP, who was originally written as the DADA teacher in CoS and that character (with a different name) is now the DADA teacher for Book 6? I don't really think that's the case. I just think that we're still going to have a new character or two in Book 6, and one of them will be the DADA teacher. I do agree that Riddle's backstory and the events at Godric's Hollow need to be revealed (as well as some of Snape's backstory and numerous other details), but I don't think a new DADA teacher will prevent that from happening. With the right character, it could even somehow expedite the process. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 21:45:52 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 21:45:52 -0000 Subject: The Opening Chapter of Book 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104927 > Eustace_Scrubb wrote: > I think JKR said the person who finds he/she can do magic late in life will do so under "desperate circumstances." (sorry don't have the > exact citation but I'm certain she used a phrase close to this) While > Dudley may feel that being threatened by Harry fits that phrase, I > doubt that JKR would have termed it so--unless Harry has truly lost it > and is really going to try an Unforgiveable on his cousin, which I > can't see happening. > > I also favor either Petunia or Dudley as the late-blooming > witch/wizard, but I suspect the talent will appear as a result of an > attack by Death Eaters--who will not be expecting any magical defense. > (I doubt that spontaneous magic will do much good against LV himself > or Dementors, but given that many of the DEs seem to be a brick shy of > a load I think a late-blooming Dursley stands a chance of thwarting > them.) . Carol: Dudley hardly fits the description "late in life." He'll be all of seventeen at the end of Book 7 (if he survives). Even Petunia, who is probably not much older than Lily would be, is no older than, say, 45--a late-bloomer, certainly, if she performs magic now, but certainly not "late in life." She has an aversion to magic and is IMO unlikely to perform it--though she does know something about the WW and could be an interesting source of information about Lily if she chose to speak. OTOH, Mrs. Figg has all the qualifications to be the person to do magic. As an Order member, she's likely to find herself in "desperate circumstances." She unquestionably qualifies as being "late in life." And she knows something about magic and probably could perform it, maybe by picking up Harry's dropped wand and shouting a spell as a desperate measure. What spells does Petunia know and how likely is she to pick up Harry's or anyone else's wand? If she could do magic without one, she'd have been sent to Hogwarts along with Lily. Carol, wondering why people don't see Mrs. Figg as the obvious candidate for the position From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Wed Jul 7 22:00:48 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 22:00:48 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited--emotional maturity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104928 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > Brenda M. wrote, about Sirius not apologising: > > I take it as guys' thing. Like silent agreement or pact amongst guys > > that they don't show their weakness. > (I snip the rest but I find it just as relevant) > > > > Hermione is different, she is a GIRL (again emphasis on being a GIRL) > > more mature and very upfront and straightforward. > > > > Apologizing for suspecting Lupin as a spy is a totally different > > matter. Lupin's integrity as a whole was on the hot plate. Sirius > > NEEDED to apologize, as he did (same goes for Lupin). > > > > Sirius probably thought that it'd be petty of Lupin to get offended > > by his 'wish it was full moon' comment, > (snip rest of relevant stuff) > > Del replies : > OK, this time I see it :-) !! Seen that way, it makes sense to me. I'm > not saying I couldn't still be right, but I can see how you could be > right too. Thanks ! > > Bren also wrote: > > But didn't Lupin say in Shrieking Shack, "And they didn't desert me > > at all. Instead they did something for me that would make my > > transformations not only bearable, but the best times of my life. > > They became Animagi" (PoA, 258. UK) > > Del replies : > Ouch ! One canon-hole in my ship ! > > Bren wrote : > > Werewolves aren't danger to animals, so when they couldn't keep him > > company as humans they did as animals. Exploring Hogwarts ground and > > Forbidden Forest as animals is a *extremely* fun adventure -- even > > for me, let alone hot-blooded over-their-own-heads boys. > > > > I think they all longed for that *special time of month* > > Del replies : > All right, all right, you have a point for sure. I'm still not reading > the Pensieve scene the way you present it, but I agree that you might > read it more accurately than I do. > > Maybe. Bren now: Hehehe. No matter how much we analyze boys, we'll NEVER understand them!! "Boys will be boys" AFter all, we don't *really* know what Lupin thought of it himself, he never mentions it. They still get along very well, so assuming he wasn't *really* hurt by the comment *that* much. But true, Sirius should have been more considerate towards his friends' feelings (other than James) Bren, who will CRY her river if Sirius turned out to be gay! :'( From danielmorgan191 at hotmail.com Wed Jul 7 22:30:58 2004 From: danielmorgan191 at hotmail.com (danielmorgan322) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 22:30:58 -0000 Subject: The Opening Chapter of Book 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104929 > Carol: > Dudley hardly fits the description "late in life." He'll be all of > seventeen at the end of Book 7 (if he survives). Even Petunia, who is > probably not much older than Lily would be, is no older than, say, > 45--a late-bloomer, certainly, if she performs magic now, but > certainly not "late in life." She has an aversion to magic and is IMO > unlikely to perform it--though she does know something about the WW > and could be an interesting source of information about Lily if she > chose to speak. > > OTOH, Mrs. Figg has all the qualifications to be the person to do > magic. As an Order member, she's likely to find herself in "desperate > circumstances." She unquestionably qualifies as being "late in life." > And she knows something about magic and probably could perform it, > maybe by picking up Harry's dropped wand and shouting a spell as a > desperate measure. What spells does Petunia know and how likely is she > to pick up Harry's or anyone else's wand? If she could do magic > without one, she'd have been sent to Hogwarts along with Lily. > > Carol, wondering why people don't see Mrs. Figg as the obvious > candidate for the position Now me: I always asumed that "late in life" in this instance meant that they where past Hogwarts acception age. As for Mrs. Figg, I seriously doubt that, I dont think she's a big enough character for that, if she could do magic, what difference would that make? Nope, deffinetly not mrs Figg in my opinion Morgan From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 22:57:59 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 22:57:59 -0000 Subject: Godric Gryffindor as HBP (Was: Prince of Walpurgis) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104930 Pandrea wrote: > I don't know, maybe it is Riddle. At present, GG seems most likely > to me but I won't mind at all if it turns out I'm totally wrong. Carol: One more bit of supporting evidence for Godric Gryffindor (who, like Tom Riddle, is first introduced in CoS) as HBP: that ruby-encrusted sword. Doesn't it seem like an odd weapon for a wizard to use or own, but perfectly appropriate for the half-blood son of a Muggle king who married a sorceress (witch)? Something along the lines of King Arthur's liason with Morgause, only a real marriage and not to his half-sister. This would be before the estrangement between Muggles and Wizards became significant (pre-witch burnings, for one thing), and that estrangement probably occurred later in Celtic areas like Wales (GG is Welsh, right?) where Druids might still have had some influence in GG's time, than in Saxon-dominated areas, at least in JKR's version of history. Thoughts, anyone? Carol From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 23:11:18 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 23:11:18 -0000 Subject: I'm disappointed... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104931 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley" wrote: > HPFGU is losing its edge here. > > I typed 'kettle' into the search field, expecting to find a whole > raft of posts detailing ever more elaborate theories, many of them > expressed in TBAY style. > > Guys, we have *new canon* here. Grist to our mill. Fish for our > kettle. Mystery for our mystics. > > I am referring, of course, to JKR's latest revelation on her website > that a key element of Book 7 will be the 'Mystic Kettle of > Nackledirk'. > > ...edited... > > Does the Mystic Kettle stand near any Magic Dishwashers? > > Take it away! > > David Asian_lovr2: Well, as this was a joke on JKR's part, there was never any need to stir this particular kettle. No need that is until you threw a can of Petrol on the fire. Now I fear we will never stop stirring this particular kettle. Too many cooks spoil the broth; unless you provide in a few bottles of wine, in which case, a good time was had by all. ;) Steve/asian_lovr2 (who very much enjoyed reading the reponses) From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Wed Jul 7 23:19:24 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 23:19:24 -0000 Subject: Homosexuality in HP (was Re: Ringdear of the Marauders: Sirius or James?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104932 > I wrote before: > > I think some, if not many, were speculating that Sirius had a crush on James, shrug. He strikes me as a typical bloke, jock, a > WOMANIZER than anything. > > I'm very curious to see if JKR would explore on the issue of > > homosexuality. It will be most definitely interesting to see how > she will tackle this *addressed to children*. > > Katie responded: > > Wayyy back, somebody posted a message to the effect of "I don't see > why JKR would put homosexual characters in the books. It wouldn't add anything to the series." A rather common sentiment, actually, and one I absolutely loathe. I mean, imagine putting any other minority in that sentence. > > Anyway.. I read Sirius and Lupin as gay (in OOTP). Perhaps reading > too much between the lines, but it seems evident to me. I find your > comment about Sirius being a womanizer interesting, though, as I > don't see two words indicating such in the text. Certainly he *seems* like the type (Byronic, dangerous, good-looking) but I don't see any evidence. > > I doubt she'd tackle the issue more directly than that, given the > conniptions fundamentalists went into over something like *magic* in the books. Poor JKR is in the uncomfortable position of writing a > book that children will read, but that is directed just as much at > adults. Brenda now: Reading your post now, I was reminded of this particular example from literature POV. Remember that scene in Shakespeare's Hamlet, with Hamlet's famous attack to his mother Gertrude?? It is widely believed by many scholars NOW that it is a classic literature moment of Oedipus Complex. A boy in love with his own mother and jealous of his father, as I am certain most of you are familiar with it. But my point is, did Shakespeare deliberately play on this idea? As far as I know, the concept of Oedipus Complex was not formally constructed till early 1900's by Sigmund Freud (oy, gotta love that dude!) and Shakespeare was what, born in 1564? Surely Shakespeare had heard of the Oedipus story, as a great fan of Greek Mythology/philosophies and making numerous references. But I have no clue how knowledgeable he was to the psychoanalysis behind it. I am willing to bet that this concept was revolutionary by far to social beliefs and morals back then. Did Shakespeare intend Hamlet to face such dilemma -- we will never know, just speculating. One thing that really stood out during my first round of OoP was when Harry snuck his head to the Grimmauld fireplace following Snape's Pensieve fiasco. After Harry mentions how James was playing with the Golden Snitch, Sirius adds, " `I forgot he used to do that', Sirius said AFFECTIONATELY" (sorry, paraphrased and emphasis added, but very certain this is the exact wording). Naturally you can imagine my eyebrows were dancing in my forehead, mid-way. O_o Did Sirius really feel more than friendship towards James, and more importantly, did JKR create him that way? I agree with you Katie, it IS rather a "common sentiment" to say that homosexual characters wouldn't add anything to HP series. As for JKR's original intention on this matter, we can only speculate till we get a clear answer from her. My train of thought is, JKR started constructing the Potterverse and formulating major HP characters in 1991 or so. I was only Grade 3 then (and what do they know, really ;P) but I don't recall homosexuality being major hot topic. I wonder if it had occurred to her to put this complex-and-minority aspect to the plot in children's literature. After all, she has put much more to each characters than we realize, just look at Dean Thomas' background! Perhaps Sirius had a line-up of ex-lovers (crossing my fingers, knocking on wood), or maybe, just maybe he was err *confused*. My favorite scenario is that Sirius' name is cleared in the next book (and Wormtail exposed under Verisaterum), First Class Order of Merlin, and during his funeral, we see multitude of his ex-lovers weeping for him. (LOL, what kind of movies have I been watching, you might ask!) Katie, you are also right in saying that although Sirius does fit the profile of typical womanizer, there is no canon for that, YET. But the level of loyalty and devotion Sirius expressed towards James isn't entirely unusual, IMO. We do see this close bond between heterosexual males, I can think of King David and Jonathan from the Bible. Or even with my friends -- some are very loyal to their friends and whatnot, but also very much in love with their girlfriends! But by stroke of unfortunate miseries if I HAD to choose a homosexual character from HP, I wouldn't go far as Lupin. If HPFG members have interpreted the bridge scene in PoA movie correctly, then Lupin was in love with Lily (also someone in this group mentioned a while back, that her fantasy was Lupin having affair with Narcissa ?- bloody brilliant, I say!) Bren, who will CRY her rivers if Sirius was gay! Addition to my "Must- Do List", ask JKR if she intended it From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 23:26:45 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 23:26:45 -0000 Subject: I'm disappointed... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104933 Kneasy: ....though little suspecting that Crumple Horned Snorkacks rapidly became extinct with the introduction of Ma Prendergast's Patented Horn Straightener and Bugle Polish. Hermione sat tight-lipped as Ron practised his ventriloquism from under Harry's invisibility cloak. All was well; Luna was as gullible as ever, and the assurance that "Gruntle orn snokacksh - s'good. Have a Guttergeer," won her over. Searching the Map for the underground passage that leads down to the stream whose source lay in Scandanavia, they failed to notice that they were being observed. From behind a slime-spewn rock, a pair of cold, slightly proturberant eyes observed their every move. Ron loading up with lucky charms; Hermione regretfully casting aside "Hogwarts, a History" and arming herself with that seminal tome "European Rarities, vol IX, the Swedish Pub"; Harry piling a 4- man tent, collapsible broomstick, the entire contents of Honeydukes stockroom and a crate of "Viva!Restorer; as endorsed by Someone who can't be Named" onto Dobby, his emanuensis - these eyes missed nothing. Nearly time to come out of hiding....nearly time to stun the world with the power of....Toadmaster! Trevor (for it is he), pondered his next move..... vmonte: Behind the slime-spewn rock Trevor glances up at Luna's large and unblinking protuberant eyes and realizes that she is his long lost daughter, who he believed had died. Mrs. Lovegood, it turns out, had saved Luna years ago from a nasty eagle owl that tried to snatch her from their garden pond. Desperate, yet unable to have a child of her own, Mrs. Lovegood seizes her chance to try a Transformo Charm spell on the unsuspecting tadpole. The spell works but also backfires, turning Mrs. Lovegood into VaporLove, an entity that now lives behind a locked door at the DoM. Luna, however, is unaware of her origins due to the memory charm that was placed on her via a laced piece of Droobles Best Blowing Gum... vivian From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 23:34:57 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 23:34:57 -0000 Subject: Theory: Dumbledore to Teach Defence Against the Dark Arts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104934 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "peter838169" wrote: > Steve/asian_lovr2 wrote: > > > For the record- > > > > I think HARRY is the JINX on the DADA teaching position. The bad > > luck began when he arrived, and when Harry is finally gone from > > school, the bad luck on the job will go with him. > Pete: > > Is that true? I'm sure I remember reading Fred and George said it's > always been jinxed? Maybe not. Is there any proof? > > Pete Asian_lovr2: In the first book, after Harry meets Quirrel, Hagrid discusses Quirrel, and among other things, he talks about how he relates to his students. Percy also makes reference to Quirrel teaching in previous years (highly paraphrased). Although, we don't know how many years, we know that Quirrel was DADA teacher at least one year before Harry arrived. Quirrel gave the impression that he had had bad luck, which turned him into a frightened quivering person, but we now know that that was just a front to cover up the fact that he was now loyal to and working for Voldemort. So, clearly before Harry arrived, the DADA teacher lasted more than one year. But no teacher has lasted since Harry arrived at the school. Just a thought. Steve/asian_lovr2 From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 23:35:16 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 23:35:16 -0000 Subject: Good Slytherins / HBP idea In-Reply-To: <008501c45fce$4957a980$c800000a@crouton> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104935 Christina in GA wrote: > I finished GoF the other night and noticed something at the end. DD had finished his speech about Harry and Cedric and the students were honoring them with a toast. On p 723, US Paperback, it says "...Harry saw that Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle and many of the other Slytherins remained defiantly in their seats, their goblets untouched." > > That hit me because it doesn't say "all of the Slytherins" but "many of the Slytherins", so I am interpreting that as meaning that some of the Slytherins did toast to Cedric and Harry. I hope we do get to see some of the Slytherins that are not part of Malfoy's group and think for themselves. Carol: IIRC, *all* of the Slytherins (and all of the teachers) stood up and raised their goblets to Cedric Diggory. "They did it, all of them: the benches scraped as everyone in the Hall stood, and raised their goblets, and echoed in one loud, low, rumbling voice, 'Cedric Diggory'" (GoF, Am. ed., 721). It was only Harry whom some of the Slytherins refused to honor. In his case, "nearly everyone in the Great Hall . . . murmured his name . . . and drank to him" but Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle and "many other Slytherins remained defiantly in their seats" (723). Many, but not all. As you say, it's significant that some of them *did* honor him, or at least had the courtesy to stand and raise their goblets half-heartedly. Theodore Nott, who is not a Draco follower according to JKR's website, may well have been in this group. And *all* of them, even Draco, honored Cedric. So I agree, there's hope that some Slytherins at least will come around (though not much hope for Draco and company). Interestingly, we're not told whether Snape stood up to honor Harry, but he must have done so or someone would have pointed it out. And he certainly did stand for Cedric, because we're tld that everyone in the hall did. I wonder what would happen if Draco and company find out where Snape's loyalties lie. Or I should say, what will happen when that loyalty is revealed. (I trust Dumbledore that Snape is really on the good side.) Carol From bd-bear at verizon.net Wed Jul 7 23:44:31 2004 From: bd-bear at verizon.net (Barbara D. Poland-Waters) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 19:44:31 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Map and the War (WAS: Malfoys' knowledge of Padfoot) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104936 "Haggridd" wrote: > After the events of PoA, the DEs have received all the information > about the Marauders from Wormtail. Of course they now know about > Sirius as an unregistered animagus. > > Haggridd From: meriaugust [mailto:meriaugust at yahoo.com] And they'll probably know all about the Map and the secret passage ways into the school, which could help LV plan an assault on Hogwarts. Could the info in the Marauder's Map be the info that LV didn't have which prevented him from attacking the school in the first war?<<<< Sorry this post is so very late, and I'm just thinking out loud, so bear with me. . .but would LV have been able to use the Marauder's Map, considering all the protections that are on the castle? Perhaps DD has specific spells on the various entrances and passageways that recognize if you are a child/student. Of course, Padfoot got through, but I'm still not sure a whole bunch of DEs would be able to get in. Then again. . .does DD even know about all the various passageways and entrances that are shown on the MM? Barbara bd-bear From ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 23:47:16 2004 From: ajhuflpuf at yahoo.com (A.J.) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 23:47:16 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104937 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Jocelyn Grunow wrote: > Surely there must be a history major here who know more than I do about the > Percy family in Tudor times? About all I can remember is that at some point > they were condemned as traitors. While we wonder if Percy will be brave enough to come back to the Weasleys, I might mention that the actor who plays Percy said in a recent interview that JKR had given him some pointers, and he had from this gotten the vague interpretation that Percy may have a redemption coming up. (I think it was bbc online, like the other month). aj From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 00:11:11 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 00:11:11 -0000 Subject: Chapt. Discussion: Chapter 22 - Harry's Support In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104938 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > > > Wendy wrote : > > > I'd like to address the questions: 1. "Do the adults (and Moody > > > in particular) really care about Harry as a person, or do they > > > mostly see him as a pawn in the fight against Voldemort?" > > > > > > and 2. "To what degree is Harry receiving (or *not* receiving) > > > support from the adults in his life?" > > > > > > My answers are 1) they sure don't seem to care about him in this > > > scene; and 2) not a whole heck of a lot. > Lee added : > > Molly's being over-motherly for the most part, Moody doesn't have > > much empathy, Lupin's trying but I think he feels bound by some > > orders as well as trying to maintain a "peace-maker" role...all > > adding up to something vague and not as supportive as Harry really > > needs. > Del replies, with a very puzzled look on her face : > > OK you two, I'm completely at sea here ! Could you tell me what you > think the adults should do to show support to Harry ? It seems to me > that they're doing a good job, but obviously you don't think so, but > I can't for the life of me figure what you think they should be > like. > > Please enlighten me, would you ? > > Del Asian_lovr2: Well, others have addressed this issue nice, but none the less, I'll take my own stab at it. First, what's wrong with Lee Storm's approach. Would it really be that hard for one or two adults to stand face to face with Harry and say, 'I'm here. I understand. You can count on me. I'll listen.'. If they had even given Harry a seconds thought they would have realized after the trama that he went through, the last thing he needed was to be alone with nothing but his depressive thoughts for company. Would it have been that hard for Dumbledore or anyone else to have told Harry about Mrs. Figg? Mrs. Figg invited Harry over for tea several times, but Harry didn't know who she was. Without someone telling him she was connected to the wizard world, the thought of tea with a batty old neighbor wouldn't have been too inviting. But if they had told Harry, I think he would have spend all his time at Figg's, if for no other reason than to just feel connected to the wizard world. When Harry was at Figg's, his guards could have dropped their invisibilty cloak prior to Harry's arrival, and pretended like they were visiting Figg. That way Harry could have had more company, and more people reassuring him, and not compromise his protection in any way. In fact, he probably would have been far safer if they had taken that approach. How hard would it be for Molly, or Arthur, or Ron and Hermione, or Lupin to Floo to Figg's place, and spend some time with Harry; a little comfort, a little support, a little companionship, a little reassurance. They could have easily told Harry about Figg, knowing the a piece of the wizard world was close by if he needed it, would have been very reassuring. Would it have really been such a terrible thing for Harry to spend a day or a weekend at the Burrow? Would it have been so horribly dangerous, if Harry met Ron and Hermione for tea at Diagon Alley? There is absolutely no need for Harry to be 100% cut off from the wizard world during the summer holiday. As long as he spends the majority of his time at the Dursley's, he's as protected as he can be. And, occassionally straying into the wizard world, especially if it is in a place where other wizard are close by in case of trouble does NOT represent any sigificant danger. While it is very nice to have an adult or some other trusted person tell you face to face that they are there for you, sometime, it's nice to just not be alone. You don't have to talk about serious things, sometimes just sitting with your best friends, the people you trust most, is reassuring enough. But to be hung out to dry and seemingly abondon by everyone is not the best or ever a good thing to do to someone who has suffered a trama like Harry. For what it's worth. Steve/asian_lovr2 From firedancerflash at comcast.net Wed Jul 7 23:37:07 2004 From: firedancerflash at comcast.net (Firedancer) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 19:37:07 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Homosexuality in HP (was Re: Ringdear of the Marauders: Sirius or James?) References: Message-ID: <029401c4647b$511a9c70$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 104939 J.K. has done a great job of including all kinds of people in her novels. No, I don't see a student with a disability, and I suppose that should bother me, but it doesn't. There is no reason why there should be a checklist saying you have to have one of these, one of those, etc. Now, I don't think Sirius is gay, nor Lupin, nor James. I dispise the entire notion of political correctness, because it breeds only a superficial and false tolerance. As to Siggy the Fraud, I rest my case. June None but the piper keeps up with the dancer! Siempre revelde!! June From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Jul 8 00:35:39 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 00:35:39 -0000 Subject: How does a Wizard becoming 'untraceable'? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104940 According to the FAQ on JKR's website, a witch or wizard can become untraceable just like a building can be unplottable. JKR said this in response to the question of why the MOM didn't send an owl to Sirius and follow it. Any ideas? It must tie in with Dumbledore in PS, when he said there are other ways to become invisible besides using an Invisibility cloak. Maybe there's nothing more to it, just another complex spell in the WW that we haven't heard about yet! Jen From baseball_07_05 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 00:36:23 2004 From: baseball_07_05 at yahoo.com (Andrew) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 00:36:23 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Process (was: names - Percy and Ginny / Percy Weasley) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104941 Sophierom said: I wish I knew more about Peter Pettigrew's background ... he seems like another "mis- sorted" Gryffindor. Did he also choose to be in Gryffindor? Pettigrew does follow Black alphabetically ... did he meet sirius on the train and, in a fit of hero worship, choose a house that was acutally ill suited for him? Or, did his family also expect him to be a Gryffindor when he was really a Hufflepuff or a Slytherin? Had he been sorted into another house, would he have been able to avoid the lure of Voldemort? I say: Where and when did the book ever mention in which house Peter was in? Everyone just assumes that he was in Gryffindor. If you can prove that he is in that house, then any statements about that can be verified From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Thu Jul 8 00:41:17 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 00:41:17 -0000 Subject: CoS question was: Re: Dumbledore evil?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104942 >>> "Kate" wrote: > I don't think that Dumbledore is in any way evil. If for some > reason it came out that he wasn't trustworthy, I think the integrity of the series would be completely shot. In interviews JK has stated that there are 2 infallible characters, DD and Hermione, that she uses to convey truths to the readers. Something that I don't understand personally is why 3 second year students could work out where the Chamber of Secrets is in the 2nd book when all the > professors together didn't know where it was. Does anyone else find this a little tough to accept? <<< Bren now: Wow, JKR actually said "infallible"? Not just DD but Hermione? Makes sense, since she identifies herself the most with Hermione, I always thought there was JKR's voice behind Hermione. Yay, I'm glad, because I thought Hermione mentioned why Occlumency weakened Harry in the beginning ('Maybe it's a bit like illness, a fever or something. It has to get worse before it gets better' in OoP) I'm putting this here because during the whole Occlumency-Snape-Harry debate about a month ago, I don't think anyone has mentioned WHY the lessons made it worse for Harry. As for the Trio discovering the Chamber of Secrets but not all the Hogwarts Professors -- I thought it was due to the Parseltongue. As far as we know, Harry and Tom Riddle are the only wizards with that particular talent. And the entrance to the Chamber lies with Parseltongue. Or perhaps I'm taking everything at face value. Brenda From pcaehill2 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 7 21:24:01 2004 From: pcaehill2 at sbcglobal.net (pcaehill2) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 21:24:01 -0000 Subject: Defending Percy ( was Percy Weasley ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104943 Del wrote: > I posted some time ago to defend Percy, saying that he's only a true Weasley, and not evil or a traitor (post number 97645). Pam: I went and read this--very well thought-out, and quite persuasive! Percy has the Weasley family traits, yes: stubborness, loyalty, and cleverness, but in his own unique expression & combination. But I believe that Percy willingly makes some bad choices, too; he's not just duped into being "on the wrong side". [snips--Del wrote:] > Percy did not abandon his family. He distanced himself from people who were accusing him of being a blind, stupid pawn, while not giving him any proof of it. > > Percy did not slander Harry, he tried to protect Ron. As far as he > knew, Harry was indeed a liar. > > There was indeed a Crouch fiasco, but definitely not on Percy's side. Pam: well, I see your point re: distancing himself, but I can also see the other side--why react so strongly to people who love you and have given you every reason to trust them so far? And re: slander & protecting Ron, well I think he did both. He had no proof that Harry was a liar any more than he had proof that H. was telling the truth; the accusation was unfounded. The 'Crouch fiasco'--here I was just remembering canon (Harry's thoughts/opinions, of course): "Percy had committed the fairly large oversight of failing to notice that his boss was being controlled by Lord Voldemort..." (OoP, chapter 4)--Granted, this is Harry's not-so- clear thinking, but it did make sense to me at the time! [snip--Del wrote:] > A betrayal? Sure, could be. Nobody's perfect. *Everyone* could turn traitor, given the right incentive, so why not Percy? Pam: True enough. I see Percy as imperfect, and not without strengths--not evil, but having very befuddled values. Thanks for the deeper exploration of Percy! Pam From jlawlor at gmail.com Wed Jul 7 22:30:59 2004 From: jlawlor at gmail.com (James Lawlor) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 17:30:59 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: New characters in Book 6 (Was: JKR says no, and she's no Dobby) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96773c88040707153055fb9f74@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104944 > Carol: > If the pattern of the DADA teacher dying or losing his/her job at the > end of the book holds true, Snape can't be the DADA teacher in Book 6, > as JKR has stated in an interview that he'll play a key role in Book > 7. (If he becomes DADA teacher in Book 7, I'll worry about his > survival. As it is, we have what amounts to a promise that he'll > survive past the end of Book 6.) > > > Q: "There's an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape." > JKR: "He, um, there's so much I wish I could say to you, and I can't > because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, can > I just say to you that I'm slightly stunned that you've said that and > you'll find out why I'm so stunned if you read Book 7. That's all I'm > going to say." Hmm! Actually, going by that it's still possible (although personally I don't find it very likely) that Snape could be the DADA teacher in HPB. It has been mentioned that Dumbledore has declined to give Snape the position despite his qualifications because he fears it will "bring out the worst in Snape", or something to that effect. It's possible that Dumbledore gives Snape the job against his better judgement and turns out to be right - that a renewed immersal in the Dark Arts brings out the worst in Snape and causes him to go back to Voldemort's side (or at least if not Voldemort's side, causing him to sink into the Dark Arts). Then he could still have a key role in Book 7 (since not all of the DADA teachers have died, after all). But I highly doubt that Dumbledore would put Snape in such a position, and I would seriously wonder what exactly was meant by Snape's "worst side", because I don't think the issue of Dumbledore's trust in Snape would hinge on something easily changed - it can't have been a whim that caused Snape to turn against Voldemort. My my, this list is quite the pleasant time-sink, isn't it? :D - James Lawlor jlawlor at gmail.com From brittrossiter at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 22:52:39 2004 From: brittrossiter at yahoo.com (brittrossiter at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 22:52:39 -0000 Subject: The Opening Chapter of Book 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104945 Morgan said: > I always asumed that "late in life" in this instance meant that they > where past Hogwarts acception age. As for Mrs. Figg, I seriously > doubt that, I dont think she's a big enough character for that, if > she could do magic, what difference would that make? Nope, > deffinetly not mrs Figg in my opinion I actually think that Filch is the most likely candidate for realisation of some "late in life" magic ability. If Hogwarts comes under any sort of peril in the next books, then he's like to be in close proximity to physical danger, and those Kwikspell courses may have actually been able to teach him a thing or two. Who knows, maybe having Filch doing a bit of magic might make him even seem somewhat sympathetic? Britt (who wonders what Mrs. Norris sees in Filch) From tookishgirl_111 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 22:56:16 2004 From: tookishgirl_111 at yahoo.com (tookishgirl_111) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 22:56:16 -0000 Subject: The Opening Chapter of Book 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104946 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "danielmorgan322" wrote: > > > > Carol: > > Dudley hardly fits the description "late in life." He'll be all of > > seventeen at the end of Book 7 (if he survives). Even Petunia, who is > > probably not much older than Lily would be, is no older than, say, > > 45--a late-bloomer, certainly, if she performs magic now, but > > certainly not "late in life." > > OTOH, Mrs. Figg has all the qualifications to be the person to do > > magic. As an Order member, she's likely to find herself in "desperate > > circumstances." She unquestionably qualifies as being "late in life." > Morgan: > > I always asumed that "late in life" in this instance meant that they > where past Hogwarts acception age. As for Mrs. Figg, I seriously > doubt that, I dont think she's a big enough character for that, if > she could do magic, what difference would that make? Nope, > definitely not Mrs Figg in my opinion. IMHO it's Aunt Petunia...there's really no one else I could think of. Mrs. Figg already had her chance in OOP, Dudley also had his chance in OOP (I don't think the Dud part of his name is an accident) Filch is a possibility (he's been studying since at least COS) but I'd think if he was going to learn any magic he'd have done it by now. Uncle Vernon strikes me as hopeless...but Aunt Petunia seems primed to explode with magic. Her sister was a witch, assumably a highly accomplished one, so that already seems to increase the possibility. Then there's the increasing pressure on her - dementors, Dumbledore, family arguements (Vernon v Harry, Dudley v Harry, and herself v Harry - though seemingly to a lesser extent than the other two), etc. Sometime tells me that should #4 Privet Drive come under attack once again it would be Petunia who would instinctually and subconciously revert to magic to save her family - not that Harry wouldnt help (assuming he was there). Tooks - who thinks all of Aunt Petunia's anger towards Harry is actually latent jealousy she had towards Lilly's magic abilities. From jlawlor at gmail.com Wed Jul 7 22:59:45 2004 From: jlawlor at gmail.com (James Lawlor) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 17:59:45 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Opening Chapter of Book 6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96773c880407071559f45feb2@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104947 > > Eustace_Scrubb wrote: > > I think JKR said the person who finds he/she can do magic late in > >life will do so under "desperate circumstances." (sorry don't have the > > exact citation but I'm certain she used a phrase close to this) While > > Dudley may feel that being threatened by Harry fits that phrase, I > > doubt that JKR would have termed it so--unless Harry has truly lost it > > and is really going to try an Unforgiveable on his cousin, which I > > can't see happening. justcarol67 wrote: > Carol, wondering why people don't see Mrs. Figg as the obvious > candidate for the position That's true then? Excellent. Being a rather new HP fan I had heard this, but couldn't remember if it was just a rumor or had actually been stated by JKR. I agree that Dudley would be too young to count as "late in life" (unless JKR is being exceptionally forboding there) and Arabella Figg is the obvious candidate for the position. Which, of course, is why I'm holding out for Aunt Petunia. *grin* It would be fun to discover that Mrs. Figg is indeed a witch after all, but not nearly as exciting and interesting as having Petunia grab a wand and shout out a spell in desperation. Also, as a Squib, Arabella would have been trying all her life to do magic, but so far she clearly "couldn't so much as transfigure a teabag". From what we've seen of the powers of young witches and wizards so far, they all seem to be able to do "strange things" happen. Even an almost-Sqib like Neville is at the very least able to bounce. So it seems that Figg would have noticed anything, *anything* that could possibly mean that she wasn't a Sqib (because even as well-adjusted as she seems to be, it can't be an easy thing to be a Squib). But who wouldn't have tried to do magic? Who loathed and hated it so much that they would have removed thought from every moment of their life? Who would have blocked from memory any bizarre little occurrences? Or blamed them on that freak sister or her boy? Petunia Evans Dursley, of course. Or maybe I just really like the idea of Petunia showing a crucial blaze of devotion towards Harry at a tense moment. - James Lawlor, who really *must* start doing something else now jlawlor at hiwaay.net From bcbgx6 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 22:59:16 2004 From: bcbgx6 at yahoo.com (Brian) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 22:59:16 -0000 Subject: About Dumbledore Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104948 If we assigned a fascination index, it seems fairly obvious that Dumbledore wouldn't be far from Harry himself. Firstly, Dumbledore, as written by Jo, demonstrates fascinatingly superhuman abilities, even for the WW. The wisdom and power he has demonstrated thus far, mistakes notwithstanding, are reminiscent of characters from other fictional worlds, such as Yoda from _Star Wars_ and Gandalf from _The Lord of the Rings_. In fact, Dumbledore, in the context of the Potterverse seems to have a bit more exceptionality than his spiritual predecessors from the aforementioned works. This exceptionality has inspired Ron=DD, Time Travel!DD, and ESE!DD theories. For one, how can he know so much? How can he be so powerful that even Voldemort fears him. In GoF, Harry is surprised by the awesomeness of his power when he knocks down the door while stunning Crouch!Moody. Harry is surprised by the display of power (fury) "etched in every line of [DD's] ancient face" because the man had seemed so benign and whimsical. Of course, the seemingly harmless person who demonstrates awe-inspiring power is one of our favorite images in Western mythology. What _Star Wars_ fans didn't experience a chill when Yoda said, "Judge me by my size, do you? And well you should not..."? Later, he "wingardium leviosas" Luke's ship right on out of the swamp, to Luke's disbelief. I don't have a problem with Jo invoking this kind of characterization, however well-worn it may be. I think she uses it again with Professor Flitwick. How else can you explain a dwarf-like wizard with a squeaky voice who smacks his lips at the prospect of syruppy nonalcoholic beverages despite being the "dueling champion" (POA)? Secondly, Jo has invoked another well-worn character trajectory--the seemingly wise-beyond-belief leader whose failings match only his successes in their degree. Dumbledore has failed enormously, and he will continue to do so. He will not be shown as ESE!, though, in my view. Like any cultural leader, he will make mistakes that would keep most of us up late at night with spasms of guilt that rival the fits of pain brought on by the cruciatus curse. Thirdly, it's tempting to think that DD is someone we know, such as Ron. I don't think JKR will resort to this. His advice during the time-turner scene in POA hints that he has done some time travel himself, but I think that will come out to be just one of many tools he has used to achieve the ends he believes worthwhile. Our world contains people whose abilities are so divergent from those of the general populace that they seem to be members of another species. Why couldn't DD just be a wizard with extraordinary abilities. Sure, we will find out that he employed some clever--and perhaps ethically questionable--means to keep track of Harry, but there are some pretty clever and failsafe means to keep track of we muggles, let me tell you! My prediction, for what it's worth, is that the Ever So Fascinating Dumbledore, in all his glory--and in all his ignominy--will come out looking as good as a leader like him can. "Brian B." From katiebug1233 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 23:18:49 2004 From: katiebug1233 at yahoo.com (Kate) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 23:18:49 -0000 Subject: CoS question was: Re: Dumbledore evil?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104949 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "anthyroserain" wrote: > Kate: > > In interviews JK has stated > > that there are 2 infallible characters, DD and Hermione, that she > > uses to convey truths to the readers. > > Katie: > Wow, she actually says that? "Infallible" just doesn't seem like the > right word, as Hermione and Dumbledore have both already made > mistakes... in Dumbledore's case, some BIG mistakes. They do in fact > convey truths, though. Katie, again: I probably should have chosen my words more carefully ("infallible" was mine not JK's but I meant to use it in describing the soundness of the information that DD and H's characters present to us). I was trying to convey the fact that DD and Hermione are 2 characters that don't lie or mislead the readers. Definitely DD has made some mistakes but I'm very sure that from what JK has said about the two that we can take what they tell us as fact. I hope that clears up my comment. -Katie (who never goes by Kate, which should add to the name confusion) :) PS Any ideas on this CoS question? From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 23:58:47 2004 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 23:58:47 -0000 Subject: Homosexuality in HP (was Re: Ringdear of the Marauders: Sirius or James?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104950 Brenda: > One thing that really stood out during my first round of OoP was when > Harry snuck his head to the Grimmauld fireplace following Snape's > Pensieve fiasco. After Harry mentions how James was playing with the > Golden Snitch, Sirius adds, "'I forgot he used to do that', Sirius > said AFFECTIONATELY" (sorry, paraphrased and emphasis added, but very > certain this is the exact wording). Naturally you can imagine my > eyebrows were dancing in my forehead, mid-way. O_o Katie now: The bit that gets me most is the line in the Pensieve scene about Sirius watching James, entirely unaware of an admiring girl. In "Snape's Worst Memory", *every* little line seems to have some significance, as others have pointed out. Can't think of another good reason why she'd write that line in :) Brenda: > As for JKR's original intention > on this matter, we can only speculate till we get a clear answer from > her. My train of thought is, JKR started constructing the Potterverse > and formulating major HP characters in 1991 or so. I was only Grade 3 > then (and what do they know, really ;P) but I don't recall > homosexuality being major hot topic. I wonder if it had occurred to > her to put this complex-and-minority aspect to the plot in children's > literature. After all, she has put much more to each characters than > we realize, just look at Dean Thomas' background! Katie: Interesting Hamlet analogy, btw. As JKR is writing in the twentieth century (twenty-first now, I guess), I think she may well be aware of the implications of her writing. There are quite clear parallels between the Wizarding World and RL, and JKR's not above slipping in a political opinion here and there. So it wouldn't surprise me at all if she drafted the series' concept without these nuances, but, when she got down to writing it, added a lot of subtext. I certainly hope we never get a clear answer from her. That would spoil all the fun :) Brenda: > Katie, you are also right in saying that although Sirius does fit the > profile of typical womanizer, there is no canon for that, YET. But > the level of loyalty and devotion Sirius expressed towards James > isn't entirely unusual, IMO. We do see this close bond between > heterosexual males, I can think of King David and Jonathan from the > Bible. Or even with my friends -- some are very loyal to their > friends and whatnot, but also very much in love with their > girlfriends! Katie: No, it's not entirely unusual. I do think it's rare, though, for an extremely good-looking, rich, intelligent guy to not ever have a girlfriend, not that we see in three books, anyway. (Funny that you bring up King David and Jonathan-- I know a *lot* of people who would love to argue with you on that one!) I certainly don't think Sirius (or Lupin, for that matter) is absolutely MEANT to be gay, I just think that he can be read as such, and JKR leaves that open. Brenda: > But by stroke of unfortunate miseries if I HAD to choose a homosexual > character from HP, I wouldn't go far as Lupin. If HPFG members have > interpreted the bridge scene in PoA movie correctly, then Lupin was > in love with Lily Katie: One reason why that scene bothers the hell out of me. It is *so* not canon! Usually JKR would drop more than a few hints if she intends to reveal a secret like that. Lupin barely mentions Lily in the books. (My irritation isn't because of hetero!Lupin, understand, it's because I absolutely HATE the old love triangle scenario. I commend JKR for not going that route with Harry, Hermione, and Ron.) Katie who will cry her eyes out if Sirius and Remus didn't have anything going on after all (I mean, bad boy and werewolf? come on!) From deb_mathews at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 8 00:36:12 2004 From: deb_mathews at sbcglobal.net (lilysphoenix) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 00:36:12 -0000 Subject: A HBP Clue? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104951 I was re reading OoP, when I came across this excerpt that I had so freely dismissed the first time around: "How're we getting to King's Cross tomorrow, Dad?" asked Fred as they dug into a sumptuous pudding. "The Ministry's providing a couple of cars," said Mr. Weasley. Everyone looked up at him. "Why?" said Percy curiously. "It's because of you, Perce," said George seriously. "And there'll be little flags on the hoods, with HB on them-" "-for Humongous Bighead," said Fred. Could the HB be a clue? Humongous Bighead Percy = HBP??? It just seems a little too coincidental for me, but what do I know? Desperate to resolve, Debra From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 8 01:22:01 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 01:22:01 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Process (was: names - Percy and Ginny / Percy Weasley) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104952 Andrew: > Where and when did the book ever mention in which house Peter was > in? Everyone just assumes that he was in Gryffindor. If you can > prove that he is in that house, then any statements about that can > be verified SSSusan: Most people assume it from this bit from the World Book Day chat in March: Sirius Riddle: What houses were Sirius Black, Remus Lupin, James Potter and Remus Lupin in? Everyone tells me they were all Gryffindor, but I won't believe it unless I hear it from Ms. Rowling herself! JK Rowling says: This is JK herself saying that they were indeed in Gryffindor! The problem is the quesioner listed Sirius *twice* and left out Peter. But the *assumption* is that all the Marauders were Gryffindors. I'll grant that we can't say w/ absolute certainty that we KNOW...but I'm placing my bet on this having been an unintentional boo-boo and that all four were indeed Gryffindors. Siriusly Snapey Susan From jferer at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 01:23:29 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 01:23:29 -0000 Subject: The Opening Chapter of Book 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104953 Britt: "I actually think that Filch is the most likely candidate for realisation of some "late in life" magic ability. If Hogwarts comes under any sort of peril in the next books, then he's like to be in close proximity to physical danger, and those Kwikspell courses may have actually been able to teach him a thing or two. Who knows, maybe having Filch doing a bit of magic might make him even seem somewhat sympathetic?" Making Filch the late bloomer doesn't serve any literary purpose, though. It's neither here not there if he's really a wizard or not; and if doing a little bit of magic made Filch more sympathetic, than Draco should be downright adorable. My money is on Dudley or Petunia. There's magic in their ancestry, and Dudley especially being a wizard would really turn the Dursley's world upside-down, not to mention Harry's. Not much doubt which house Dudders would find himself in, is there? Jim Ferer, who isn't certain he wants to know. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 8 01:28:09 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 01:28:09 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Process -correction! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104954 Whoops--the questioner said *Lupin* twice, not *Sirius*.... But you all knew what I meant, right? ;-) SSSusan > > The problem is the quesioner listed Sirius *twice* and left out > Peter. But the *assumption* is that all the Marauders were > Gryffindors. I'll grant that we can't say w/ absolute certainty > that we KNOW...but I'm placing my bet on this having been an > unintentional boo-boo and that all four were indeed Gryffindors. > > Siriusly Snapey Susan From greatelderone at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 01:28:03 2004 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 01:28:03 -0000 Subject: The Opening Chapter of Book 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104955 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: > My money is on Dudley or Petunia. There's magic in their ancestry, > and Dudley especially being a wizard would really turn the Dursley's > world upside-down, not to mention Harry's. Not much doubt which house > Dudders would find himself in, is there? GEO: Where has JKR or the novels said that either the Evans has magic in their ancestry? From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Thu Jul 8 01:44:32 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 01:44:32 -0000 Subject: Homosexuality in HP (was Re: Ringdear of the Marauders: Sirius or James?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104956 >>> In Message #104939, June wrote: >> J.K. has done a great job of including all kinds of people in her novels. No, I don't see a student with a disability, and I suppose that should bother me, but it doesn't. <<< Bren now: I always thought physical disability wasn't a problem with Wizarding medicine and surgical methods. I mean, just look at Madam Pomfrey and what she can do, growing broken bones! -- and she's not even a highly-skilled famous "surgeons" working at St. Mungo's with fat paycheck! But I do think WW doesn't put nearly as much emphasis on Mental Health as needed, especially after the First War with Voldemort. Someone mentioned awhile ago that there doesn't seem to be any Mind Healers or even Counselling in WW and I must agree, we don't even see a glimpse of it. >>> June wrote: There is no reason why there should be a checklist saying you have to have one of these, one of those, etc. Now, I don't think Sirius is gay, nor Lupin, nor James. I dispise the entire notion of political correctness, because it breeds only a superficial and false tolerance. As to Siggy the Fraud, I rest my case. <<< Bren now: But if she did put some minority ('different') characters in the books, it won't be because she was trying to be politically correct. It will just strengthen the parallel between WW and RL -- which JKR firmly believes in, IMO. It is one of the most central themes of HP series. And yes, as to "Siggy the Freud", no comment, lol. >>> Katie now: > Interesting Hamlet analogy, btw. As JKR is writing in the twentieth > century (twenty-first now, I guess), I think she may well be aware of the implications of her writing. There are quite clear parallels > between the Wizarding World and RL, and JKR's not above slipping in a political opinion here and there. So it wouldn't surprise me at all > if she drafted the series' concept without these nuances, but, when > she got down to writing it, added a lot of subtext. > > Katie wrote later on: I certainly don't think Sirius > (or Lupin, for that matter) is absolutely MEANT to be gay, I just > think that he can be read as such, and JKR leaves that open. Bren now: I absolutely agree with you, Katie. JKR seems to be getting her own dose of fun, just observing HP fans interpreting differently. I'm afraid though, if by the end of series if Sirius remains "ambiguous", then he'll be thought to be gay by many fans. > I wrote earlier: > > Katie, you are also right in saying that although Sirius does fit the profile of typical womanizer, there is no canon for that, YET. But the level of loyalty and devotion Sirius expressed towards James > > isn't entirely unusual, IMO. We do see this close bond between > > heterosexual males, I can think of King David and Jonathan from the Bible. Or even with my friends -- some are very loyal to their > > friends and whatnot, but also very much in love with their > > girlfriends! > > Katie: > No, it's not entirely unusual. I do think it's rare, though, for an > extremely good-looking, rich, intelligent guy to not ever have a > girlfriend, not that we see in three books, anyway. (Funny that you > bring up King David and Jonathan-- I know a *lot* of people who would love to argue with you on that one!) Bren now: SIGH, I *knew* someone will bring that up! Poor analogy, my bad. King David will be James in this case, apparently heterosexual (stealing a warrior's wife, etc.) and Jonathan be Sirius. I haven't studied the Bible extensively so I wouldn't know how to present my opinion on this, but I did think about this possibility. Jonathan was married with wife and kids as well, but if one was to argue 'he didn't want to come out' then I am at loss of words. >>> Katie: >> (My irritation isn't because of hetero!Lupin, understand, it's because I absolutely HATE the old love triangle scenario. I commend JKR for not going that route with Harry, Hermione, and Ron.) <<< Bren now: Yes, that love triangle is too old and predictable. BUT, IMO, I think that bridge scene was very crucial to understanding what happened on the night of GH. THe post is called "Lupin was the spy" -- unfortunately, nothing comes up in Search and can't remember the poster or the message number. But the post basically states that Lupin was indeed the Secret Keeper of the Potters. In the Shrieking Shack scene, Wormtail doesn't give straight answer to Sirius when Sirius goes on about how Peter was made the SK only because he suggested it. And this is the ONLY occassion where Peter just mumbles or mutters distractedly, but everywhere else he gives definite answers, truth or lie. Lily doubted Sirius when he backed out of it last minute, so Lily persuaded James to switch to Lupin, because she believed his innocence when no one else did. (Apologies for side-track) I highly doubt this love-triangle fiasco will come between the Trio though, I think it's pretty obvious from canon that it's Ron- Hermione, but won't get into that. > Katie > who will cry her eyes out if Sirius and Remus didn't have anything > going on after all (I mean, bad boy and werewolf? come on!) Bren, who's now *laughing* and crying her eyes out! Talk about Kingdom Animalia! From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Thu Jul 8 01:46:34 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 01:46:34 -0000 Subject: A HBP Clue? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104957 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lilysphoenix" wrote: > I was re reading OoP, when I came across this excerpt that I had >so freely dismissed the first time around: "How're we getting to >King's Cross tomorrow, Dad?" asked Fred as >they dug into a sumptuous pudding. "The Ministry's providing a >couple of cars," said Mr. Weasley. Everyone looked up at >him. "Why?" said Percy curiously. "It's because of you, Perce," >said George seriously. "And there'll be little flags on the hoods, >with HB on them-" "-for Humongous Bighead," said Fred. > Could the HB be a clue? Humongous Bighead Percy = HBP??? It just > seems a little too coincidental for me, but what do I know? "K": Good find! I just hope it's not Percy. Yet he was snooping around quite a bit in CoS. ~The labyrinthine passages were deserted. They walked deeper and deeper under the school, constantly checking their watches to see how much time they had left. After a quarter of an hour, just when they were getting desperate, they heard a sudden movement ahead. "Ha!" said Ron excitedly. "There's one of them now!" The figure was emerging from a side room. As they hurried nearer, however, their hearts sank. It wasn't a Slytherin, it was Percy. "What're you doing down here?" said Ron in surprise. Percy looked affronted. "That," he said stiffly, "is none of your business. It's Crabbe, ins't it?" cos-ch 12-pg 219-us I'm not a Percy hater but I sure hope it's someone else. ^-^ "K" From Batchevra at aol.com Thu Jul 8 01:50:19 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 21:50:19 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius revisited--emotional maturity Message-ID: <191.2aeaa81a.2e1e025b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104958 In a message dated 7/7/04 9:20:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mnaperrone at aol.com writes: (snip) As for being imprisoned - well, yes, he was. Sirius is really no different after imprionment than he was after the Prank. So not only did he not change when he was in prison, but he apparently didn't change much before going there either, unlike James, who did mature and see the error of his ways at a young age. Yes, he had a hard life, but just as so many people say that's no excuse for Snape not changing, how can it be an excuse for Sirius not changing? Maybe it makes their faults understandable, but it doesn't make them acceptable. Ally:(snip) Sirius was imprisoned with Dementors who suck out the happiness and leave you with your worst memories. Even Hagrid tells of the torment that he went through. In that environment how can anyone mature. Sirius went in when he was in his twenties, still immature. Snape OTOH, was a DE, then he switched and has been teaching at Hogwarts. Snape has more of an opportunity to grow up than Sirius had, without Dementors and with Dumbledore's help. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 01:56:28 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 01:56:28 -0000 Subject: Pity for Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104959 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: snip. > So yes I pity Tom Riddle. I am aware that he was an arrogant prat, but > as many of us keep repeating about one or the other characters, he was > just a kid ! > > Del Alla: Hmmmm. Let's put it this way. (Keep in mind that I am not set in stone on that issue, I may rethink it over again. :)) I guess I do feel pity for Tom until certain moment of his life. I fully realise where is he coming from, etc, BUT when he decided to become Lord Voldemort and go on the killing sprees, even though I understand what may influenced his choices, I still have no pity for him. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 02:07:15 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 02:07:15 -0000 Subject: Homosexuality in HP (was Re: Ringdear of the Marauders: Sirius or James?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104960 snip. Katie previously: > > > > Wayyy back, somebody posted a message to the effect of "I don't see > > why JKR would put homosexual characters in the books. It wouldn't > add anything to the series." A rather common sentiment, actually, and > one I absolutely loathe. I mean, imagine putting any other minority > in that sentence. > > > > Anyway.. I read Sirius and Lupin as gay (in OOTP). Perhaps reading > > too much between the lines, but it seems evident to me. Alla: Katie, whether JKR was teasing or not in OoP, I agree that it could be read as Sirius and Remus being together and I applauded her for that, even though Sirius and Remus are not my favourite slash couple, I much prefer well done Sirius/Snape. :) I doubt that she will make any of the characters openly gay, mainly because she has enough battles to fight with the people, who are prejudiced against the books for religious reasons, etc. But I think that she may surprise us still. snip. > Brenda : huge snip. > > My favorite scenario is that Sirius' name is cleared in the next book > (and Wormtail exposed under Verisaterum), First Class Order of > Merlin, and during his funeral, we see multitude of his ex-lovers > weeping for him. (LOL, what kind of movies have I been watching, you > might ask!) > Alla: LOL! I want Snape to be one of them. :) From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Thu Jul 8 02:10:07 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 02:10:07 -0000 Subject: Pity for Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104961 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > Hmmmm. Let's put it this way. (Keep in mind that I am not set in > stone on that issue, I may rethink it over again. :)) > > I guess I do feel pity for Tom until certain moment of his life. I > fully realise where is he coming from, etc, BUT when he decided to > become Lord Voldemort and go on the killing sprees, even though I > understand what may influenced his choices, I still have no pity for > him. I'd go along with that. One can pity, say, the 8-year old Tom Riddle, alone and abandoned in a horrible orphanage - obviously he's not Voldemort THEN. But at some point he makes a decision: "Evil, be thou my good," - doesn't Satan say that in 'Paradise Lost'? From that point, he's the enemy of goodness. The only pity I can have for him then is sort of a retrospective pity - a "How could you have done this to yourself?" feeling about someone who didn't have to end up this way, but did. It's more pity for the lost Tom Riddle who might have been than for Voldemort himself. Wanda From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Thu Jul 8 02:20:40 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 02:20:40 -0000 Subject: Homosexuality in HP (was Re: Ringdear of the Marauders: Sirius or James?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104962 > Alla: > I much prefer well done Sirius/Snape. :) > > Brenda earlier: > > > My favorite scenario is that Sirius' name is cleared in the next book > > (and Wormtail exposed under Verisaterum), First Class Order of > > Merlin, and during his funeral, we see multitude of his ex-lovers > > weeping for him. (LOL, what kind of movies have I been watching, > you might ask!) > Alla: LOL! I want Snape to be one of them. :) Bren now: ALLA! I thought you HATED Snape and LOVED Sirius! What kind of movies have *you* been watching!!! Bren, still giggling so hard from Alla's Sirius-Snape SHIP! From firedancerflash at comcast.net Thu Jul 8 02:16:03 2004 From: firedancerflash at comcast.net (Firedancer) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 22:16:03 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Homosexuality in HP (was Re: Ringdear of the Marauders: Sirius or James?) References: Message-ID: <006b01c46491$855fcc60$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 104963 I think the best thing we can say at this point is that J.K. is a consummate author. She does what she does so well. As far as I'm concerned, she writes like James Gallway plays. Of course, Gallway's music is always sweet, J.K.'s writing isn't, but the common point for me is that I like whatever both of them produce. June None but the piper keeps up with the dancer! Siempre revelde!! June From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 02:30:15 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 02:30:15 -0000 Subject: Homosexuality in HP (was Re: Ringdear of the Marauders: Sirius or James?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104964 > > Bren now: > > ALLA! I thought you HATED Snape and LOVED Sirius! What kind of movies > have *you* been watching!!! > > Bren, still giggling so hard from Alla's Sirius-Snape SHIP! Alla: Ooo, it is my sacred duty to clarify my position as much as I am able to. :o) I am definitely not "real" Snape fan, in a sense that I would accept anything that he does and love it, on the contrary. I will bash him left and right for psychological torture he puts Harry through. BUT, having said all that, I am fascinated by his character and I do think that he has many admirable traits (courage, struggle for redemption, etc.. Didn't I tell you that one of my favourite assumptions is that Snape will turn out to be a former Gryffindor.) and I ALWAYS loved Sirius/Snape ship in fact, in the romance department that is the ONLY ship I really care about in "potterverse" I don't see any strong, fleshed out female characters in canon yet for either of my favourite guys to be involved with, so I love slash very much so far. Unless, of course we will see a female love interest for any of them in canon, then I will reevaluate my preferences. From lavaluvn at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 01:43:29 2004 From: lavaluvn at yahoo.com (lavaluvn) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 01:43:29 -0000 Subject: Homosexuality in HP (was Re: Ringdear of the Marauders: Sirius or James?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104965 > Katie, you are also right in saying that although Sirius does fit the > profile of typical womanizer, there is no canon for that, YET. But > the level of loyalty and devotion Sirius expressed towards James > isn't entirely unusual, IMO. We do see this close bond between > heterosexual males, I can think of King David and Jonathan from the > Bible. Or even with my friends -- some are very loyal to their > friends and whatnot, but also very much in love with their > girlfriends! > > But by stroke of unfortunate miseries if I HAD to choose a homosexual > character from HP, I wouldn't go far as Lupin. If HPFG members have > interpreted the bridge scene in PoA movie correctly, then Lupin was > in love with Lily (also someone in this group mentioned a while > back, that her fantasy was Lupin having affair with Narcissa ?- > bloody brilliant, I say!) Andromeda here: Well if you're looking for male adoration/ adulation of James, you need look no further than good old Peter Pettirew "wetting himself" watching James grab the Snitch. I think Sirius was rather digusted by Peter's worship of James and undoubtedly a bit jealous that James clearly enjoyed the attention. I mean, ick. And the Order photo where Peter sits between Lily and James... I know the "Peter betrayed James out of jealousy thing" has been brought up by other posters but it seemed appropriate to add here! Sirius' distinct absence of female companionship does seem a bit odd, given Jo's mention several times of his good looks, girls sighing over him, etc. Well, odd from a hetero female's standpoint anyway. I just can't see Jo making any sort of issue out of sexual orientation one way or another. They may very well all just be good friends (or not so good, in Peter's case). I think a grown man may speak of his dead best friend's childhood foolishness (the hair ruffling, e.g.) affectionately without too much being read into it! Andromeda From mayeaux45 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 01:53:09 2004 From: mayeaux45 at yahoo.com (mayeaux45) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 01:53:09 -0000 Subject: Homosexuality in HP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104966 Katie (and whoever else has replied to this particular question): Going along the lines of JKR saying "watching the movie gave me goosebumps" and the clues that she saw in it for books 6&7, I find it very interesting to also point out that Harry's patronus (which as we all know is a stag...James' animagus form), has an "unusual" effect on Sirius as he's lying by the lake when the dementors attack. What is that all about? Could it be another clue into their "relationship"? Who knows? But it does strike me as odd b/c that NEVER happened in PoA. Could that have been one of the scenes JKR was referring to when saying "she got goosebumps" and one of many scenes Alfonso Cuaron "inadvertently" put in. (But I MUST add that he said he didn't put any scenes in the movie on accident...it was all intuition). And based on the reaction of JKR ( a literary GENIUS may I add), his "intuition" was eerily close to actual events for future books. "mayeaux" From kandbmom at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 02:24:51 2004 From: kandbmom at yahoo.com (kandbmom) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 02:24:51 -0000 Subject: I am new- does anyone think Dumbledore HBP? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104967 I am new to this and am completely hooked on HP. I am thinking Dumbledore is the half blood prince and will have to sacrifice his life to save Harry? Any thoughts? "kandbmom" From Pouncevil at Att.Net Thu Jul 8 02:05:59 2004 From: Pouncevil at Att.Net (Pouncevil at Att.Net) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 02:05:59 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Opening Chapter of Book 6 Message-ID: <070820040205.7603.40ECAC070004E04000001DB321603763160B070AADD2BBD20201AD@att.net> No: HPFGUIDX 104968 -------------- Original message from "Jim Ferer" : -------------- My money is on Dudley or Petunia. There's magic in their ancestry, and Dudley especially being a wizard would really turn the Dursley's world upside-down, not to mention Harry's. Not much doubt which house Dudders would find himself in, is there? I thought I read someware that Harry get hurt in book 6. I am going along with Jim and think it will be Dudders. He will loose it and attack Harry using magic and injure him and thus will have to be take out out the home much earlier then normal. Any bets? -- Ron Reid [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Pouncevil at Att.Net Thu Jul 8 01:55:23 2004 From: Pouncevil at Att.Net (Pouncevil at Att.Net) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 01:55:23 +0000 Subject: AnHBP Clue? Message-ID: <070820040155.29802.40ECA98A0006B6830000746A21603763160B070AADD2BBD20201AD@att.net> No: HPFGUIDX 104969 -------------- Original message from "lilysphoenix" : -------------- I was re reading OoP, when I came across this excerpt that I had so freely dismissed the first time around: "How're we getting to King's Cross tomorrow, Dad?" asked Fred as they dug into a sumptuous pudding. "The Ministry's providing a couple of cars," said Mr. Weasley. Everyone looked up at him. "Why?" said Percy curiously. "It's because of you, Perce," said George seriously. "And there'll be little flags on the hoods, with HB on them-" "-for Humongous Bighead," said Fred. Could the HB be a clue? Humongous Bighead Percy = HBP??? It just seems a little too coincidental for me, but what do I know? That quote is from POA not OOTP. And was for the saftey of Harry. -- Ron Reid [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 02:38:58 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 02:38:58 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited--emotional maturity In-Reply-To: <191.2aeaa81a.2e1e025b@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104970 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Batchevra at a... wrote: snip. > Sirius was imprisoned with Dementors who suck out the happiness and leave you > with your worst memories. Even Hagrid tells of the torment that he went > through. In that environment how can anyone mature. Sirius went in when he was in > his twenties, still immature. Snape OTOH, was a DE, then he switched and has > been teaching at Hogwarts. Snape has more of an opportunity to grow up than > Sirius had, without Dementors and with Dumbledore's help. > Alla: yep, definitely. Snape could have been imprisoned in Azkaban for a short while, while awaiting trial, or he could have not. I don't think we know that for sure (Please, correct me if I am wrong). Surely, Snape has a lot of his inner demons to battle with, I have no doubt about that, but I don't think that him being in a safe environment of Hogwarts comes even close to Sirius' being near dementors for twelve years. Sirius had no opportunity to growth whatsoever. Snape was with his colleagues , near Dumbledore (I am working under assumption that dumbledore is not evil, mind you. Yes, it is doubtful that Snape had many happy memories from the beginning, but at least he could have some normalcy, some help. From editor at texas.net Thu Jul 8 02:25:37 2004 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 21:25:37 -0500 Subject: Must the prince be human? Message-ID: <00a401c46498$73ef84a0$1c5aaacf@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 104971 I'm sorry, I haven't really been keeping up with the list these days, so if someone else has said this I apologize. Does the half-blood prince have to be a human? We know giants can interbreed with humans, other species may be able to. Or it could be someone who is a half-blood mix of two nonhuman species. So much of the theme has been involvement and trust of other kinds; wouldn't a prince of another species tie in nicely? ~Amanda -------------------------- Those who cannot hear the music, think the dancers daft. From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Thu Jul 8 03:11:12 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 03:11:12 -0000 Subject: Think on This...... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104972 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Plinker" wrote: > What does the group consider the three MOST IMPORTANT things to watch > for in the next book? This being based on what we have found in the > books published to date. If you think of more let it rip. Valky: What a cooool thread you started Plinker. Its a good way for us to kind of collate and organise our main thoughts about HBP so far... anyway here goes for me............ #1 Harry's OWLS. He will get O's and E's mostly,with the exception of Potions and Divination, in which he will probably get Acceptables provided there is no Umbridge tampering involved. I really don't think he'll care that he doesn't get an O or E in Potions he really didn't want to be an Auror in his heart, it was just something to say. I have been wanting to say for a long time that Harry will get a surprising O! for care of Magical creatures! At first he will be very glad that he has managed to give such a great reward to Hagrid who has suffered much. He will credit the O to Hagrids teaching unequivocally but later he will be reminded by Hermione and Ron that he is excellent at the subject. It will be a turning point for Harry to realise that his potential lies in his love for all things and his impressive list of challenging victories will be noted which I think we should read carefully; Aragog, Fawkes, Dobby, Snakes, the snitch (based on a magical creature) he was the first to ride Buckbeak, he understands the Centaurs like not even Hermione can. #2 Sirius. NH Nick was most likely right that Sirius is the *kind of person* who would move on with his next adventure, but I think not before he has done all he can for Harry. It may be a bit of wishful thinking on my part but either way, watch just as Harry is beginning to accept that Padfoot is gone and he just won't see him anymore while he's alive, for a message from Sirius to pop up in some subtle way, which Harry will most certainly miss the first few times, but we don't have to. #3 Luna and Hermione. At the end of OOtP Hermione finally bit her tongue and felt a bit of warmth for Luna, as in PS when the trio battled the troll together they had just been a part of something too important as a team to not become friends. The way I see it Luna is like the magnifying glass that we always needed, with Lunas microscope on Hermione's eyes we are going to see a lot more revealed. So watch for parrallels between what Hermione and Luna say their observations are. Also Harry and Hermione are very important to each other, Harry is her rock and she is his, their friendship will be sorely tested by Luna so watch for a bit of jealousy from Hermione too. From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Thu Jul 8 03:16:49 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 03:16:49 -0000 Subject: Deadly FUNNY HP Story -- Starting with Sirius-Snape SHIP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104973 Oops, sorry, Alla. I thought you were a total Snape-basher, didn't realize you found him fascinating! And I certainly wasn't aware of your fondness to Sirius-Snape SHIP. So, for PURE FUN and brain-cooling, here's what *really* happened: --------------------------------------------------------------------- So there was Sirius and Severus, sitting under the tree, mastering the Dark Arts and hanging people upside down, etc etc. What a happy memory that was! Brought together by their pure-blood-driven families, everyone thought it was the perfect match! But once Snape laid his eyes on Lily -- he couldn't resist! Those green Almond- shaped eyes, as he always fancied eating non-brown/beige almonds! So Snape broke up with Sirius to be with Lily, oh boy, was that a nasty fight! Lily accepted him for a while, only to dump him for richly loaded athlete James. James, who of course was in love with her for ages, gives her his undivided attention, away from Sirius. So here is heart-broken Sirius, who first lost 'love of his life', AND his best friend (whom he was "working on" with his doggy charm, mind you) -- to Lily! So then Sirius seeks comfort in Voldie, because hey, Tom Riddle was exceptionally good-looking too in his old days, right? Practicing his old talent in Dark Arts, he turns ESE! to betray the Potters. But Snape, learning of his ex-lover's betrayal to James, strikes a deal with Voldie to spare Lily, as he was still smitten. But Voldie meets his downfall, reduced to ashes by none other than Lily's son. Sirius, having lost his lovers 3 times in a row by that Lily, is maddened with grief. He first tracks down Peter to cause diversion, blame it all on Peter so that he can quietly give Snape what he deserves. You see, he must set Snape straight for continuously betraying him -- "I thought you loved me! Did that mean NOTHING to you???" But old ratty Peter got the better of him! Now thrown in Azkaban cell, Sirius thinks fast and seduces a nearby Dementor. "You Dementor lot, you guys fancy Voldie don't you. I know how to turn him on you know. But I can't afford to lose my charms when he comes back, because, well, then he will have to turn to Lucius and Lucius will rat me out on my affair with him" So Dementors leave him alone for the most part, allowing him to remain remarkably normal in long 12 years. Then Sirius escapes after 12 years of Azkaban, learning where Harry and Peter were. That Harry, whose blood was filled with that Lily's, and Peter -- he stood in his way between him and Severus. He must kill 2 birds with one stone...... [please feel free to continue] Bren, who CANNOT believe she wrote this. Where was *I* in this Sirius' love life. >>> Alla wrote: > > Ooo, it is my sacred duty to clarify my position as much as I am able to. :o) > > > I am definitely not "real" Snape fan, in a sense that I would accept > anything that he does and love it, on the contrary. I will bash him > left and right for psychological torture he puts Harry through. > > > BUT, having said all that, I am fascinated by his character and I do > think that he has many admirable traits (courage, struggle for > redemption, etc.. Didn't I tell you that one of my favourite > assumptions is that Snape will turn out to be a former Gryffindor.) > > and I ALWAYS loved Sirius/Snape ship in fact, in the romance > department that is the ONLY ship I really care about in "potterverse" > > > I don't see any strong, fleshed out female characters in canon yet > for either of my favourite guys to be involved with, so I love slash > very much so far. Unless, of course we will see a female love > interest for any of them in canon, then I will reevaluate my > preferences. From n2fgc at arrl.net Thu Jul 8 03:19:54 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 23:19:54 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Homosexuality in HP (was Re: Ringdear of the Marauders: Sirius or James?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104974 Personally, I didn't read any homosexual innuendo or anything in OOTP. I saw people who cared for each other as really good friends do. Why is it that if the word "affectionate" is used with men, the possibility of homosexuality is brought forth? Affection can be bestowed upon anyone a person happens to love as a friend, as a family member, etc. Just my personal opinion. As far as Sirius not seeming to be aware or care about the admiring girls, I've seen many young men his age go to extremes, either very much aware or so absorbed in their own world that nothing intrudes. And, though not stated, it's possible that he just came off a relationship and wanted a break. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me; | n2fgc at arrl.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 03:29:50 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 03:29:50 -0000 Subject: Homosexuality in HP (was Re: Ringdear of the Marauders: Sirius or James?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104975 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "(Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)" wrote: > Personally, I didn't read any homosexual innuendo or anything in OOTP. I > saw people who cared for each other as really good friends do. Why is it > that if the word "affectionate" is used with men, the possibility of > homosexuality is brought forth? Alla: It is entirely possible that this was friendly affection (most likely even). It is just I want them to be more than friends, that is all. :) Even though as I said Remus/Sirius is not my favourite ship, any gay ship will be fine, if JKR decideds to show them in the book. From n2fgc at arrl.net Thu Jul 8 04:04:48 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 00:04:48 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I'm disappointed... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104976 [vmonte]: | | Behind the slime-spewn rock Trevor glances up at Luna's large and | unblinking protuberant eyes and realizes that she is his long lost | daughter, who he believed had died. | | Mrs. Lovegood, it turns out, had saved Luna years ago from a nasty | eagle owl that tried to snatch her from their garden pond. | | Desperate, yet unable to have a child of her own, Mrs. Lovegood | seizes her chance to try a Transformo Charm spell on the unsuspecting | tadpole. The spell works but also backfires, turning Mrs. Lovegood | into VaporLove, an entity that now lives behind a locked door at the | DoM. | | Luna, however, is unaware of her origins due to the memory charm that | was placed on her via a laced piece of Droobles Best Blowing Gum... [Lee]: Which happened to be in a flavour which didn't sell well...Ear Wax! And though the memory charm was effective at blotting out Loona's true ancestry from her memory, for some reason, the taste of Ear Wax still causes her to cringe away from Berty Bott's Every Flavour Beans...but that's another story... Now, it's up to Master Trevor to see if he can reverse the memory charm or, perhaps, he'll just admire the being his daughter has become... Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me; | n2fgc at arrl.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From nadinesaintamour at hotmail.com Thu Jul 8 04:12:40 2004 From: nadinesaintamour at hotmail.com (catimini15) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 04:12:40 -0000 Subject: Diary!Tom Not So Separate From Voldemort In-Reply-To: <1ed.24c9875e.2e1cb734@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104977 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, juli17 at a... wrote: (snip) > So Voldemort of the present (...) is in Albania as events unfold in Chamber of Secrets, > while Tom Riddle, the entity preserved in the diary, is at Hogwarts > trying to regain his corporeal form by sucking the life force out of > Ginny. This seems to me pretty conclusive proof that, no matter > how they are connected, Voldemort and Tom Riddle are in fact two > separate entities. > > Which does make me wonder what JKR meant by saying Voldemort > would have been strengthened considerably by Ginny's death. Does > it mean Tom would have merged with his older "self," providing the > present day Voldemort with a youthful body again? Now me (Nadine) : Yes, I do believe, at the time of CoS, that Tom Riddle would have merged with his older self providing Vapourmort with a youthful body again. It would have strengthened Voldy considerably but, somehow, I think it is Ginny who would have given him that ?new? strength. There is something about Ginny that we still have to discover. Maybe it has to do with JKR statement about Ginny being the only girl of her lineage for a long time ? Maybe she has plenty of the special power Harry is supposed to be full of ? Love or a little bit of Gryffindor's or both ? I don't know if Voldy and Tom are two different entities. I think Voldy is simply Diary/Tom's future. But if they are two separate entities, then maybe Kneasy is really on to something with his ?possession? theory. And maybe Tom is the Half Blood Prince (HPB). For some reasons, I like to think that Salazar Slytherin is the HBP ! And I think he was the first wizard to be possessed by an even greater evil something that used to roam in the Chamber. Grindewald being the second, Tom the third, etc. Mouhahahaha ! Nadine From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Thu Jul 8 04:22:29 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 04:22:29 -0000 Subject: Ringdear of the Marauders: Sirius or James? (was Kreacher the Murderer) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104978 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brenda M." wrote: > First, apologies to Valky, I rearranged your post 104531 to make this post more coherent -- please forgive me! > Done! Though I am not sure I can forgive your implying, later in this thread my sexy favourite of the HP Series could be more interested in Snape than cute and clever little blonde chicky like... well.... me :( LOL > Valky wrote in Message # 104531: > > So Sirius is very very intelligent, > > > Bren now: > > Absolutely. Sirius is incredibly sharp, both street AND book smart. > And I imagine Sirius will be very keen on anything fishy going around, especially a plot against himself. The lad had been living in his worst nightmares for 12 years, I say he still remains very paranoid to this day. And Kreacher's timing was perfect, with Sirius stuck in that grim-old place. I suspect you'd need whole bunch of unusual ingredients for Befuddlement Draught though, wonder how Kreacher got his hands on that without Sirius knowing?!?! > > Valky; Good Point. but I suspect easily answered since he's been alone in a house for so many years that once was inhabited by a sinister witch I would suspect that she'd have had a few such items hidden away in the pantry which is frequently mentioned to be very near Kreachers hideaway. Probably concealed by elf magic. I said: > > When I imagine all the Marauders together and consider their > > roles in their group I am certain that Sirius was > > intelligent, in fact somewhat in Hermione's league I think. > > I see James as having been highly gifted but a bit of a > > dunderhead a bit like Ron, and Lupin as someone who's stand out > > feature is his inner strength like Harry. Of course they are their own people essentially ..... > Bren now: James seemed too goody-goody in the beginning. It was in PoA, when McGonagall said "Hogwarts has never had a pair of trouble-makers like them" (paraphrased) that I started liking James more. And OoP was definitely interesting. It struck me odd though, when I was reading all the posts re: Animagi and what it means. How Stag is the alpha-male dear and Dog is a faithful, dead loyal (literally) and best-friend. But why though? What makes James more 'alpha-male' than Sirius? > James: brilliant, talented, brave, athletic, wealthy, pure-blooded, bully, popular ... but mid-height, average-looking, somewhat mild (as far as we know, relatively speaking) > Sirius OTOH: ALSO brilliant, talented, brave, wealthy, pure-blooded, *bully*, *popular* (pretty sure he was athletic too, just not a sports TEAM player)... but tall, "very good-looking" (probably had a line up of girls), aggressive, hot-bloode/impulsive, rebellious, owned COOL motorcycle (and the list goes on)... > My guess is that Sirius WAS the Man of Men, with James the main man in double acts, and so on. > But after JAmes' death and HArry's unfortunate upbringing, which is widely blamed on Sirius as the betrayer, there was a shift in "evaluating" the Marauders. James, who most people sympathesize with, became the Alpha-male, and Sirius being put aside to the second. > Valky: I like your take, it is sensible and logical. Even so, I think that James was the Alpha male anyway. To demonstrate I will give you my take on the James, Sirius traits. Sirius; Extraordinarily Smart and Good Looking (did have a stream of admiring girls please read ch 28 OOtP where it is said re Sirius "a girl sitting behind him was eyeing him hopefully, though he didn't seem to have noticed." ) , broody and unable to see anyone with who he could truly empathise, a fairly high amount of talent but relied mostly on his intellect, I dont really think that being wealthy and pure-blooded meant all that much to him actually in fact I think he probably resented those things about himself most of all and in a way was envious of Lupins more struggling and challenging exsitence. And finally Hot blooded, a very passionate person. James; Extraordinarily Talented, a natural at everything, didn't really need much intellect, pureblooded and wealthy like Sirius but also nonplussed about his privileged existence and as such the only one Sirius felt could empathise with him. A typically loud and boisterous personality as a front concealing insecurities. Entirely too adventurous for his own good, not afraid of much at all. It was James sense of high adventure that Sirius liked most about him. Sirius' only way of dealing with his troubled feelings was brooding and aching. James had somehow managed to distract from it by living the dangerfilled extreme kind of life that Sirius had only previously dreamed of. So it was James that rescued Sirius from his anguish of never feeling that he was worthy. Somehow it had never flowed with Sirius that Pureblood or wealth made you a cut above the rest his resentment of having had no real expectation to be anything worthwhile placed on him is very clear. So in this way although Sirius possessed a great many qualities of an Alpha type male he simply could not realise them, he really was bored with himself. From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Thu Jul 8 05:02:41 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 05:02:41 -0000 Subject: Secret Chamber in Malfoy Mansion (was Ringdear of Marauders: Sirius or James?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104979 >>> Bren earlier, talking about the possibility of Kreacher lacing Sirius' food with Befuddlement Draught, which was Valky's idea: > > I suspect you'd need whole bunch of unusual ingredients for Befuddlement Draught though, wonder how Kreacher got his hands on that without Sirius knowing?!?! > > Valky responded: > Good Point. but I suspect easily answered since he's been alone in a house for so many years that once was inhabited by a sinister witch > I would suspect that she'd have had a few such items hidden away in > the pantry which is frequently mentioned to be very near Kreachers > hideaway. Probably concealed by elf magic. <<< Bren now: That's a very intesting idea. This reminds me of that secret chamber in Malfoy mansion. I think Draco mentions it in passing in CoS ('of course, Father's got a chamber of his own...') I wonder if we'd ever get a glimpse of it, and what is hidden in it. Could it be somehow connected to the Chamber of Secrets in Hogwarts? Maybe this is the "small thing" in CoS that will be important later on? Bren ------------------------- And this is for Valky: >>> Valky wrote: > Though I am not sure I can forgive your implying, later in this > thread my sexy favourite of the HP Series could be more interested > in Snape than cute and clever little blonde chicky like... well.... > me :( LOL Bren now: Haha, yeah. I'm very much fond of Sirius as well (being a gullible youngster, it's inevitable). And Sirius-Snape SHIP is Alla's invention, not mine! And I agree with rest of your post as well, very logical and sensible indeed ;). From musicofsilence at hotmail.com Thu Jul 8 05:02:51 2004 From: musicofsilence at hotmail.com (lifeavantgarde) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 05:02:51 -0000 Subject: Homosexuality in HP (was Re: Ringdear of the Marauders: Sirius or James?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104980 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "(Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)" wrote: >>Personally, I didn't read any homosexual innuendo or anything in OOTP. I saw people who cared for each other as really good friends do. Why is it that if the word "affectionate" is used with men, the possibility of homosexuality is brought forth? Affection can be bestowed upon anyone a person happens to love as a friend, as a family member, etc. Just my personal opinion. As far as Sirius not seeming to be aware or care about the admiring girls, I've seen many young men his age go to extremes, either very much aware or so absorbed in their own world that nothing intrudes. And, though not stated, it's possible that he just came off a relationship and wanted a break.<< Stefanie reponds: Well, in OotP, we get a pretty clear image of what Sirius's home life and his relationship with his mother was like...he *did* run away from home because of the doctrines of the Black family. And, well, his mother wasn't exactly a very pretty picture (...literally!) I'm the first to don the "'SNAPE'S WORST MEMORY' WAS A 20 MINUTE SNAPSHOT INTO THE LIVES OF THESE BOYS AND HARDLY A DOCUMENTARY OF THEIR ENTIRE LIVES" sandwich sign, but maybe the reason we don't see Sirius attatched to any females is for the simple fact that the mother/son relationship familiar to him had him afraid that he'd end up with someone like that? I mean, if a guy tends to look for (either consciously or unconsciously) a woman (or, more broadly, a partner) that has characteristics that emulate his mother's, one can't blame Sirius, or even find it that odd, that we don't see him keyed into one relationship...keep in mind S's W M *was* a year before he ran away...he couldn't have been having warm and fuzzy feelings toward his mother at the time :o\ Stefanie, who's eating up the HP psychology babble :o) From Meliss9900 at aol.com Thu Jul 8 05:10:48 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 01:10:48 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry & his potions O.W.L Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104981 In a message dated 07/07/2004 3:43:25 PM Central Daylight Time, justcarol67 at yahoo.com writes: > Carol: I doubt that Snape would push any of his students in the wrong > direction if he were allowed to proctor (invigilate) the potions OWLS > if only because their success reflects on his skill as a > teacher--which IMO is one reason why he pushes them and teaches at a > somewhat higher level than the MoM recommends I don't think that Snape would deliberately sabotage their chances but his presence alone would be enough to unnerve Neville and probably Harry as well. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From oppen at mycns.net Thu Jul 8 05:09:09 2004 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 00:09:09 -0500 Subject: The rebirth of Lord Voldemort---a thought I had Message-ID: <002101c464aa$852f3d20$12570043@intergate.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104982 I was reading along (hard to keep up; my 'puter's acting oddly, and running rather slowly) and I came to a post mentioning how Lord V. was reborn from a huge cauldron. It suddenly struck me that this is something I'd seen before. In Lloyd Alexander's "Prydain" young-adult fantasy novels, one of the magical items to be found is the Black Crochan (a "Crochan" is a cauldron), which is used to make the "Cauldron-Born" undead warriors that serve the evil Death-Lord Arawn. Like a lot of other things in this series, this comes from real mythology---in the earliest versions of the King Arthur story, it was a cauldron, not the Holy Grail, that the knights went in search of. I doubt that cauldrons of that size are in common use in the WW---could the cauldron itself be a significant object? In Alexander's books, the rightful owners comment that after Arawn's had his paws on it, it's ruint and fit only to make more Cauldron-Born, and the good guys have to destroy it---at the cost of a life. I wonder when/if we'll see that cauldron again? From paul_terzis at yahoo.gr Thu Jul 8 05:28:41 2004 From: paul_terzis at yahoo.gr (paul_terzis) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 05:28:41 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore to be trusted? In-Reply-To: <001201c463cd$1bc09d30$6401a8c0@C3P0> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104983 > > Maren Gest Wrote: > Has anyone else noticed that Dumbledore seems to never be around when somethings happening with Harry and Voldemort (The first book he was called away on importaint duties, the second the govenors sent him away, and the fourth he wasn't there for the graveyeard part) The 5th book is the only one with Voldemort in it that Dumbledore was there to help, but it wasn't until he very end did he intervine. I think its possible that Dumbledore is not really as good as we think he is. Also how is it possible for Dumbledore not to catch that Pro. Moody in book four is not the real Moody? Even in the Penisive Dumbledore seems to be some what friends with the old man, and they have known each other for a long time. Mr.Weasley even says Dumbledore never miss' a trick, so how is it possible that he wasn't able to tell a good friend was an imposter, Fake Moody couldn't have been that good of an imposter?! > > My friend you are right. Something is wrong with DD in general. I am sure that he is hiding a lot more than that he divulged to HP at the end of OOTP. I had said in a previous post of mine that there many people with their own agenda in the Potterverse. Everyone is using HP as his/her puppet. One of the them is surely DD. The problem is that we don't know what his agenda includes. If I were HP I wouldn't trust DD so easily. Cheers, Paul From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Thu Jul 8 05:35:36 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 05:35:36 -0000 Subject: Defy Four Times (Re: Fear and Valour ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104984 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > Valky: > > The way I see it the spell forms are the the same, reversed. > > So saying that Harry's Immortal Personage exists because of the > > Valour inside him, equal to the Fear that surrounds Voldemort. > > Also, where Harry goes he inspires brave deeds also just as in the heart of Voldemort is always Fear. > > Jen: You make excellent points Valky, in your essay. Valky: *red as a tomato* Thankyou very much Jen, I had really hoped it was not rambling. >> Jen says: I've always felt there was more to Voldemort's 'gift for spreading discord and enmity' but never thought through it. I always imagined it as him putting a Confusing & Befuddlement Draught in the pumpkin juice supply, > Valky: LOL ahh yes it could of course be that too! Jen: > Recently I've been dwelling on the graveyard scene in GOF and the > importance of the Phoenix song. FBAWTFT mentions that the Phoenix > song 'is reputed to increase courage of the pure of heart and > strikes fear in the hearts of the impure'. > > Given your theory, this has even more symbolic value. Harry is the > embodiment of the Phoenix song, in other words. His 'purity of > heart' is so strong as to bring forth not only the Phoenix song, but also the help he needs to defy Voldemort in the graveyard. > Valky: Ok now the hard part. It has taken me a couple of days to reply to your post, Jen. Because you have made a contribution worthy of a lot of deep thought. I so entirely agree with what you are saying it has inspired me to post all over the place about Fawkes and Harry (see 'Think on This...' thread and 'DD as DADA Teacher' as well, among others) but til now I hadn't really been able to think of a way to give you a solid reply. Just a bit more of your post should help it make sense... You said: > And that leads me to wonder, Dumbledore and the Prophecy both place such importance on how many times a person defies Voldemort. Here's the balance issue again. If more and more people speak his name and act in defiance of him, including his 'loyal' followers, will it be like the dueling brother wands, as slowly, very slowly, the fear gets pushed back onto Voldemort himself? > Now in reply (me): Yes thats quite what I am saying. And Voldemort will be revealed as a pathetic frightened wretch, but even then noone will actually be able to defeat him because he is made indestructable by Harrys dominion at that point. I know Harry would be merciful to the withered wretched LV/Tom. And when he does he will have made the wisest choice of all, because he will be standing in exactly the same scenario as LV did at Godrics Hollow. It would backfire on Harry, but he wont need to know this, he'll make the right choice anyway. Valky From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 8 05:58:42 2004 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 05:58:42 -0000 Subject: Toad Surveillance Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104985 imamommy: I was thinking about Trevor the toad, and I sort of had a Hermione moment where I had to get up and check the books, and I would like to pose a theory that Trevor is at least one way in which DD is keeping his eye on Harry. Trevor is mentioned (in conjunction with Neville) a half dozen or so times in the first part of SS. Then at the end, when the trio meet Neville in the common room, Trevor bolts. Then DD comes back from London in the nick of time. The toad is perfectly placed to keep an eye on Harry, and while his prescence is used to remind us of Neville's ineptitude, I think this may be a red herring. I realize that Neville brought his toad with him--it was a gift from Great Uncle Algie. But what if DD was somehow able to plant this amphibian knowing Neville would be in the same house as Harry? (Great Uncle Algie was responsible for the Mimbulus Mimbletonia as well, wasn't he? I definitely think *that* has more significance.) DD has said more than once that he keeps better tabs on HP than he realizes, and I keep wondering how, so maybe this fills a hole for me. I also like the idea of Trevor being the HBP, although I'm not completely convinced, but I think it's a fun idea. Nobody's pets are included in these books for nothing. I don't think we know what any of the students (or teachers, for that matter) have besides HP, Hermione, Ron, and DD, and all of these are important to the plot. I would like to think Trevor has more significance than just revealing Neville's character. Plausible theory, or do I need a course of Shock Spells at St. Mungo's? imamommy From paul_terzis at yahoo.gr Thu Jul 8 06:01:51 2004 From: paul_terzis at yahoo.gr (paul_terzis) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 06:01:51 -0000 Subject: CoS question was: Re: Dumbledore evil?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104986 > > Katie wrote: > > I probably should have chosen my words more carefully > ("infallible" was mine not JK's but I meant to use it in describing > the soundness of the information that DD and H's characters present > to us). I was trying to convey the fact that DD and Hermione are 2 > characters that don't lie or mislead the readers. Definitely DD has > made some mistakes but I'm very sure that from what JK has said > about the two that we can take what they tell us as fact. I hope > that clears up my comment. > > -Katie (who never goes by Kate, which should add to the name > confusion) :) > > PS Any ideas on this CoS question? Katie sometimes is not necessary to lie in order to cause trouble. Hiding the whole truth is more destructive. DD is hiding a lot more than we know. One thing is sure. There is no clear black or white. But there is a lot of GREY! Cheers, Paul From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 06:08:58 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 06:08:58 -0000 Subject: Chapt. Discussion: Chapter 22 - Harry's Support In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104987 Steve wrote: > Would it really be that hard for one or two adults to stand face to > face with Harry and say, 'I'm here. I understand. You can count on > me. I'll listen.'. Del replies : No, but I'm not sure it would work at all. First because it's a lie : they *don't* understand, and they are not much here. And second because Harry doesn't want to talk, he wants *answers* and that's precisely what he can't get. Steve wrote : > If they had even given Harry a seconds thought they would have > realized after the trama that he went through, the last thing he > needed was to be alone with nothing but his depressive thoughts for > company. Del replies : I agree. Unfortunately, as has been pointed out many times before, emotional support is almost an unknown concept in the WW. Moreover, I'm not sure any of the adults were *able* to support Harry at that time, because the return of LV, not matter how expected, was a trauma for them too ! If a war started tomorrow in my country, I know I'd be less available for whoever might need me for a while. And finally, time isn't the same for everyone. The adults were all busy getting the Order back into shape, I'm sure they didn't realise a month had passed already. Harry was all alone, for him each day must have felt like a week. Inversely, each day must have felt like an hour for the busy adults. Steve wrote : > They could have easily told Harry about Figg, knowing the a piece of > the wizard world was close by if he needed it, would have been very > reassuring. > > Would it have really been such a terrible thing for Harry to spend a > day or a weekend at the Burrow? > > Would it have been so horribly dangerous, if Harry met Ron and > Hermione for tea at Diagon Alley? > > There is absolutely no need for Harry to be 100% cut off from the > wizard world during the summer holiday. As long as he spends the > majority of his time at the Dursley's, he's as protected as he can > be. And, occassionally straying into the wizard world, especially if > it is in a place where other wizard are close by in case of trouble > does NOT represent any sigificant danger. Del replies : Did you never wonder why people were tailing him, not coming openly to walk with him ? If Lupin, for example, was on tailing duty, why didn't he come and talk to Harry, instead of keeping hidden ? If the Order had *wanted* to give Harry some company, it would have been easy to tell him to meet his protector for the day at 9:00 at the corner of Privet Drive every morning. But they left him very visibly alone. Why ? My idea is that they were quite simply trying to figure out LV's plans. They knew he could be after a certain number of things (Harry, the Prophecy, more followers...) and they ostensibly left those things alone to check what he was going to try and snatch. Giving Harry wizarding company would have compromised this, and made it harder for the Order to figure out LV's plans. So yes, there might very well have been a strong need for Harry to be alone all summer. This is unfair for Harry I know, but then war is never fair. At the end of GoF, when DD is giving out his orders to various people, he doesn't give them any sentimental support speech first. It's just "you go there, you do that". The only one he's worried about is Snape, but even then DD doesn't go emotional. So I'm afraid the Order has precious little time to spare during that first month, while they are over-busy setting up their resistance group. Even during August, we see that the members are working long hard hours. They have no time to spare. And emotional support for anyone is low on their to-do list. Del From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 06:08:30 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 06:08:30 -0000 Subject: New characters in Book 6 - Snape's Destiny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104988 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Asian_lovr2 (Steve) wrote: > > with Snape as DADA teacher and Tom Riddle as the Half Blood > Prince, we open the door for a great deal of important story to be > told. Without that, or with new characters, we are bogged down with > 'cannon fodder' characters and wasted pages. > > Carol: > If the pattern of the DADA teacher dying or losing his/her job at > the end of the book holds true, Snape can't be the DADA teacher in > Book 6, as JKR has stated in an interview that he'll play a key role > in Book 7. (If he becomes DADA teacher in Book 7, I'll worry about > his survival. As it is, we have what amounts to a promise that he'll > survive past the end of Book 6.) > > I know you haven't forgotten this exchange, but others may not be > familiar with it: > > Q: "There's an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape." > > JKR: "He, um, there's so much I wish I could say to you, and I can't > because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, > can I just say to you that I'm slightly stunned that you've said > that and you'll find out why I'm so stunned if you read Book 7. > That's all I'm going to say." > > ...link removed.... > > So for good or for ill, Snape will be around in Book 7 and there's > no good reason to make him the DADA teacher now .... > > ...edited... > > Carol Asian_lovr2: Thanks for that quote and the link, I wasn't aware of the particular statement. That certainly weakens my positions. I have been pretty strongly advocating Snape as DADA teacher and Snapes dying in book 6. While you haven't shot that down completely, you have certainly weakened my it and given me pause for doubt. It is possible that Snape will die in book 6, and it is his STORY that will continue in book 7. But you have sufficiently weakened my resolve to the point where I'm not sure I can advocate any particular position. A part of me really really feels that the time is right for Snape to be DADA teacher. The constant hints in the book seem to have been leading up to just that thing occuring. But as strongly as I feel that, knowing that Book 7 will completely resolve Snape's story line, I now confess myself hesitant. General Points on Snape- Others are predicting that Snape will slip back over to the Dark Side. Some say because having the DADA job will rekindle the desire for Dark Art in him again. Other think he is and always has been on the Dark Side. But I'm convinced that while Snape is not a nice guy, he will always be a good guy. HOWEVER, I think Snape will be forced into a position where he must commit very dark acts in order to maintain his good standing with Voldemort and the other Death Eaters. That's one of the hazards of being a double agent, at some point, although at different times, you will be called upon to betray both sides. Sample scenerio, Harry is captured by Voldemort, and as a test of his loyalty, Voldemort will demand that Snape torture Harry. Snape, under the circumstance, must either reveal himself as a traitor to Voldemort and suffer the consequences, or he must torture Harry. I think, he will see that it is better to torture Harrry thereby allowing both of them to live to fight again some other day. I'm not say that specific thing will happen, although I think it is likely, I'm just illustrating my point. I also feel that Snape will clearly redeem himself to Harry, to the story, and to the readers in some very grand and heroic way. Make note of this, because you will rarely hear me defending Snape. Steve/asian_lovr2 From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 8 06:19:45 2004 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 07:19:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups]Re: Eastern European HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040708061945.26984.qmail@web25106.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104989 Entropy wrote: I do agree that whoever the HBP turns out to be, it's a good possibility that his roots could be in Eastern Europe. We know: [1] Victor Krum's place on the Bulgarian Quidditch team [2] Krum and Karkaroff's Eastern European accents [3] Voldemort's exile to Albania [4] Prague was *the* alchemical hot spot of the 16th century (it was once known as "Magic Prague"), and alchemy has been shown to play a huge role in both the HP story and story structure. (Because of this, I'd guess that Durmstrang's secret location *is* Prague.) So it seems a pretty good guess to me that JKR intends to make this area of the world a significant one to the Wizarding World of Books 6 & 7. ----------- Hans: Just a *short* reply for once. Actually this is the most interesting one I've heard so far! Yes indeed Prague was the alchemical hotbedof the 16th century! This gives me goosebumps, because a certain person whose name was hidden in OoP spent timein Praguetrying to make gold through alchemical means. His name? John Dee ("Dee John" (Dijon) - see Hagrid's tale). It's highly likely that JKRis givingus a clue to book 6 here. As a matter of fact in 1564 John Dee published a book which was dedicated to the Holy Roman Emperor, Maximilian, King of Bohemia (asthe countrywas called then). This book, "Monas Hieroglyphica", features onits title page a symbol which is also on the letter of invitation to the Alchemical Wedding of Christian Rosycross. This isa symbol of Mercury (Hermes - Hermione) and consists of a crescent (Luna), sitting on top of a circle, above a cross. This symbol can also be interpreted as soul, spirit and body completely united, the result of the Alchemical Wedding, which I maintain is the purpose of the Harry Potter septenary. I can type it sideways: )O+ If you now tip this 90 degrees with the cross underneath, and join them together a bit more, you get the Monas Hieroglyphica. Near Prague is the castle Karlstejn. From the air it looks very much like JKR's description of Hogwarts. It was built in 1348-65 by the Holy Roman Emperor Charles IV. I want to emphasise that this castle contained numerous frescoes which DrRudolf Steiner described as, "representing the Alchemical Wedding of Christian Rosycrossin primitive form." These frescoes are related to the life of St Wenceslas, who is considered a Rosicrucian. Well done, Entropy! I think you're on to something here! Hans in Holland Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Thu Jul 8 06:27:39 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 06:27:39 -0000 Subject: Barty Jr was never a marked DE? (was Re: Fear and Valour (Long)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104990 -- Snipping most of Valky's post that follows her 'Fear and Valour (Long)' Thread, starting #104274: >>> Valky wrote: So at this point I am going to take a gigantic leap and propose something that is a bit crazy, and it could be right too. > > Bart Jr was never marked! > > My supporting canon is that he was extremely young when he crucioed > the Longbottoms. Perhaps too young to have actually been into the DE creed beyond his initiation. So young he may have been an outside > and silent inactive supporter of LV right up till he became > Vapomort. We know that Barty Jr crucioed the Longbottoms after > Godrics Hollow. So if the mark was to be placed on the DE by > Voldemort himself to seal the connection it could not have been done if Barty Jr hadn't actually joined before Voldys failed AK on Harry. Therefore, he may not be an actual Death Eater, and may not be > wearing the Dark Mark at all. Meaning if he was to will himself to > say Voldemort there is nothing magical to stop him. Bren now: I agree, he was very young when he was imprisoned in Azkaban, even before legal drinking age in the States! (I believe he was around 19 then, according to Padfoot in GoF). And this was about a year after Voldemort's downfall, so Barty Jr was atmost 18 when he became a DE. That's like what, right after Hogwarts?!? Please correct me if I'm wrong (and I think I am on this one) -- but when a DE is casting a Dark Mark onto sky, don't they point their wands in their DM scar and say the incantation? I have no canon to prove this, I might be getting this mixed up with the Protean Charm (Voldemort summoning his servants by means of burning the Dark MArk). Do you guys know how DEs cast DM onto sky? And where was Barty Jr during the 13 years of non-Voldemort period? So he was sent to Azkaban in age of 19, presumed dead around 20 or 21 (which we all know was the switch). And Crouch Sr brings him home, has him Imperio!, Winky takes care of him, persuades Crouch Sr to let him out for Quidditch World Cup -- what am I missing? Does this mean that Barty Jr was being imprisoned at home, hiding under Invisibility Cloak, Imperio-ed, for over 10 years?!?! And all those times Barty learned to fight it off, and... that's it? I ask again, WHAT AM I MISSING? Bren From dianasdolls at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 06:41:54 2004 From: dianasdolls at yahoo.com (Diana) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 06:41:54 -0000 Subject: Foreshadowing for books 6 & 7- PoA DVD on the way! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104991 After seeing PoA yet again in IMAX last week, I'm now certain that Harry losing his glasses at the Whomping Willow foreshadows him losing his glasses at a critical time in book 6 and/or 7. There's just no other reason for this scene to be in the movie.... I'm still debating about the other foreshadowing possibilities, but the glasses one just really struck me during this last viewing. Anyone else positive about any one (or more) foreshadowings for book 6 or 7, whether from the PoA movie, other movies or from the books themselves? Anyway, we'll all be able to analyze PoA for clues to the next too books in great detail after it's comes out on DVD on November 23rd, 2004! This announcement of the DVD release was on www.countingdown.com. Diana L. dianasdolls From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 8 07:01:42 2004 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 08:01:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups]Re: Snape's House (was: Homosexuality in HP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040708070142.26512.qmail@web25109.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 104992 Alla said: BUT, having said all that, I am fascinated by his character and I do think that he has many admirable traits (courage, struggle for redemption, etc.. Didn't I tell you that one of my favourite assumptions is that Snape will turn out to be a former Gryffindor.) Sorry to spoil your fun, but doesn't Sirius tell the Trio to which house Snape belonged? GoF page 577 ("Padfoot Returns") Bloomsbury 2001: "Snape knew more curses when he arrived at school than half the kids in seventh year, and he was part of a gang of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be Death Eaters." Then follows a very interesting list. With regards and apologies, Hans in Holland Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com From musicofsilence at hotmail.com Thu Jul 8 07:11:13 2004 From: musicofsilence at hotmail.com (lifeavantgarde) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 07:11:13 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups]Re: Snape's House (was: Homosexuality in HP) In-Reply-To: <20040708070142.26512.qmail@web25109.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104993 Alla said: > BUT, having said all that, I am fascinated by his character and I do > think that he has many admirable traits (courage, struggle for > redemption, etc.. Didn't I tell you that one of my favourite > assumptions is that Snape will turn out to be a former Gryffindor.) Hans: > Sorry to spoil your fun, but doesn't Sirius tell the Trio to which house > Snape belonged? > > GoF page 577 ("Padfoot Returns") Bloomsbury 2001: > "Snape knew more curses when he arrived at school than half the kids in > seventh year, and he was part of a gang of Slytherins who nearly all turned > out to be Death Eaters." Then follows a very interesting list. Stefanie replies: He doesn't tell us specifically... (I've used this exact quote to emphasize just the opposite.) Logically, since he hung out with Slytherins and is now the head of Slytherin house, it's not a far- fetched assumption to say that he was a Slytherin in school...however it has never been said verbatim. Stefanie (who has had a "strictly-canon Snape essay" stalled by this quote. boo.) From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 07:17:57 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 07:17:57 -0000 Subject: Defending Percy ( was Percy Weasley ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104994 Pam wrote : > Percy has the Weasley family traits, yes: stubborness, > loyalty, and cleverness, but in his own unique expression & > combination. But I believe that Percy willingly makes some bad > choices, too; he's not just duped into being "on the wrong side". Del replies : I'm on the fence. I believe we can't reach any conclusion at all from the books. The only thing that bothers me is JKR's answer, during the WBD chat, to the question of whether Percy was acting on his own : she said "I'm afraid so." Pam wrote : > well, I see your point re: distancing himself, but I can > also see the other side--why react so strongly to people who love > you and have given you every reason to trust them so far? Del replies : Percy was always an over-achiever. That's his identity : he's the excellent student while in Hogwarts, and the excellent employee once he's working. That's the *only* thing at which he's good, in which he can rightfully take pride : he's good at what he's doing. So when he gets that dream job, he logically figures it's because of his hard work, and he expects his folks to say so. But they don't. In fact, they even say that it has nothing to do with his capabilities, it only has to do with his surname. Basically, he could have been the worst Ministry employee, Fudge would still have taken him in. That's denying *everything* Percy has ever done, all the work he's ever put into his studies and his job. That's denying his identity, *who he is*. It was pretty much the most cruel, the most horrible thing his father could have said : "all your efforts were for nothing, in the end it's only my name that counts. You don't exist on your own, you only exist as my son." I can't blame Percy for losing his temper on that one. Pam wrote : > And re: slander & protecting Ron, well I think he did both. He had > no proof that Harry was a liar any more than he had proof that H. > was telling the truth; the accusation was unfounded. Del replies : As a matter of fact, Percy *did* have a proof, albeit an indirect one : LV was nowhere to be seen. If a friend told you they've seen John Lennon but nobody else confirmed that and everybody called your friend delusional for claiming he's seen Lennon, who would you believe ? Pam wrote : > The 'Crouch fiasco'--here I was just remembering canon (Harry's > thoughts/opinions, of course): "Percy had committed the fairly large > oversight of failing to notice that his boss was being controlled by > Lord Voldemort..." (OoP, chapter 4)--Granted, this is Harry's not-so- > clear thinking, but it did make sense to me at the time! Del replies : It made sense to me too, until I started thinking about it. The whole point of the Imperius Curse is that it doesn't show. Percy couldn't know. He could and did notice that his boss was acting *differently*, but how ever was he supposed to guess that it had anything to do with being under Imperius ?? If your own boss was over-working and started acting differently, I'm sure you would simply conclude that he needs rest, not that he's being hypnotised by a follower of Bin Laden ! Especially since Percy didn't know anything about LV being supposedly on the way back. So I don't agree with Harry at all anymore : Percy did not do anything wrong. Pam wrote : > I see Percy as imperfect, and not without strengths--not evil, but > having very befuddled values. Del replies : In fact, Percy does *not* have befuddled values at all, quite the contrary ! He's got very clear values, and he sticks to them very stricly. And they are not even bad values : he believes that hard work brings success and that you should respect those in power. What's wrong with that ?? Not to mention that he's always been reinforced in his beliefs by everyone that counted. He was a model student and got only praises for that : his parents were proud of him and DD made him Head Boy. How could he figure that there might be something wrong with hard-working ambition ? (I want to emphasize the fact that Percy associates success with hard work, at least for himself. He doesn't try to find himself a big friend, unlike Peter Pettigrew, he works to achieve his goals.) So what's wrong with Percy ? I'm not sure but I'd say he's horribly insecure. Too insecure to dare and change his own rules and risk his identity. Sticking to his values has always worked before, so he can surely rely on them again, right ? Well, wrong, but how could he see it ? After all, he's asked to believe Harry with no proof whatsoever, and in the process, to risk what he's worked for all his life : his job. Pam wrote : > Thanks for the deeper exploration of Percy! Del replies : Thanks, but you should thank Ron and the Twins. They are the ones who got on my nerves, by repeating ad nauseam that Percy is a git. What kind of brotherly love is that ?? Del From musicofsilence at hotmail.com Thu Jul 8 07:18:48 2004 From: musicofsilence at hotmail.com (lifeavantgarde) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 07:18:48 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups]Re: Snape's House (was: Homosexuality in HP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104995 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lifeavantgarde" wrote: > Alla said: > > BUT, having said all that, I am fascinated by his character and I > do > > think that he has many admirable traits (courage, struggle for > > redemption, etc.. Didn't I tell you that one of my favourite > > assumptions is that Snape will turn out to be a former Gryffindor.) > > > Hans: > > Sorry to spoil your fun, but doesn't Sirius tell the Trio to which > house > > Snape belonged? > > > > GoF page 577 ("Padfoot Returns") Bloomsbury 2001: > > "Snape knew more curses when he arrived at school than half the > kids in > > seventh year, and he was part of a gang of Slytherins who nearly > all turned > > out to be Death Eaters." Then follows a very interesting list. > > > Stefanie replies: > He doesn't tell us specifically... (I've used this exact quote to > emphasize just the opposite.) Logically, since he hung out with > Slytherins and is now the head of Slytherin house, it's not a far- > fetched assumption to say that he was a Slytherin in > school...however it has never been said verbatim. > > Stefanie > (who has had a "strictly-canon Snape essay" stalled by this quote. > boo.) Stefanie clarifies!: I take that (partially) back! Silly me was mistakenly hearkening back to the days when I believed the quote to be something to the effect of "hung around a gang of Slytherins" ::blushes sheepishly:: Apologetically and canon consorting religiously from now on, Stefanie From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 07:40:31 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 07:40:31 -0000 Subject: Pity for Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104996 Wanda wrote : > One can pity, say, the 8-year old Tom Riddle, alone and abandoned in > a horrible orphanage - obviously he's not Voldemort THEN. But at > some point he makes a decision: "Evil, be thou my good," - doesn't > Satan say that in 'Paradise Lost'? From that point, he's the enemy > of goodness. Del replies : I agree. But I believe that was quite some time after his school years. Even when he released the Basilisk and killed Myrtle, or when he killed his folks, I still believe he was redeemable, and was suffering more than hating yet. Wanda wrote : > The only pity I can have for him then is sort of a retrospective pity > - a "How could you have done this to yourself?" feeling about someone > who didn't have to end up this way, but did. It's more pity for the > lost Tom Riddle who might have been than for Voldemort himself. Del replies : Oops, I thought that was obviously what I meant, but I must have forgotten to mention it. That's why I use the name Tom, see : because I'm speaking of the Tom *before* LV. And I believe that if Harry ever managed to have pity on that Tom, it might destabilize LV, because the whole reason for the existence of LV is pretty much that Tom felt unloved and unwanted. Del From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 07:45:50 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 07:45:50 -0000 Subject: Chapt. Discussion: Chapter 22 - Harry's Support In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104997 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > > Steve wrote : > > If they had even given Harry a seconds thought they would have > > realized after the trama that he went through, ... > > Del replies : > I agree. Unfortunately, as has been pointed out many times before, > emotional support is almost an unknown concept in the WW. > ...edited... > Asain_lovr2: For the record, I do understand the points you are making. And let's face it, you are tell us the story the way it was written. Everything you say is true because that is the way it happened. We, however, are engaging in "ya-but's". Ya but why didn't they do this? Ya but why didn't they do that? While you are telling us the way it is, we are telling you the way it should have been. The orignal questions that sparked this were about whether Harry was properly supported by the adults around him. I think the answer is that he was not. I countered your statement of the way things are and why, with my version of how they could have easily been, and been so without any compromise to The Order's priorities of the moment. Also, to your point that Harry wouldn't take any help that might have been offerred to him. Believe it or not, that's not the point, take it or not, at least it was offerred, at least he knows it's there if he needs it. It's not about taking the help, it's about the comfort of knowing the help and support is there. We are, in a sense, debating what IS, and what COULD HAVE BEEN. > Steve wrote : > > They could have easily told Harry about Figg, ... > > > > Would it have really been such a terrible thing for Harry to spend > > a day or a weekend at the Burrow? > > > > Would it have been so horribly dangerous, if Harry met Ron and > > Hermione for tea at Diagon Alley? > > > > There is absolutely no need for Harry to be 100% cut off from the > > wizard world during the summer holiday. ... > Del replies : > Did you never wonder why people were tailing him, not coming openly > to walk with him ? ... If the Order had *wanted* to give Harry some > company, it would have been easy to tell him to meet his protector > for the day at 9:00 at the corner of Privet Drive every morning. But > they left him very visibly alone. Why? My idea is that they were > quite simply trying to figure out LV's plans. ...edited... > > This is unfair for Harry I know, but then war is never fair. ...edited... > > Del Asian_lovr: None of my suggestions compromised the priorities of The Order in any way. Mrs. Figg was already there watching over Harry. Her presents didn't drain any resources from other tasks because that IS her task. She did, in fact, invite Harry to tea several times, and if Harry had know she was a Squib in contact with the Order and Dumbledore, he would have been there in a second. She may not have been able to tell him much, but at least he wouldn't have been alone. At least he would have had the comfort of some direct contact with the wizard world. At least he would have had a friendly face to talk to. In addition, Harry protectors visible at Figg's place would not have had to compromise their secretly following Harry. They could pretend like they dropped by to check on Mrs. Figg. Again, Harry would have had company and a connection to the wizard world, and someone to talk to. These guards are already there in Little Whinging, it just a matter of whether the cloak is off or on. That would have certainly reduced his sense of isolation. That certainly would have increased his comfort level. That certainly would have allayed his anxiety level. And would have actually made the job of his personal invisible guards easier. It would be a lot easier to guard Harry when his guards could be visible at Figg's house, than it is to follow him aimlessly around the neighborhood. Contained at Figg's is certainly safer that wandering around in the open. None of these suggestion would have taken any more resources than were already dedicated to Harry. None of these suggestions would have taken much thought or planning. And most of these suggestion would have actually made the job of guarding Harry easier and therefore make the Order's overal job easier. So, to the question, where the people in Harry's life properly supporting him? NO. Could they have? YES, very easily and to their definite advantage, and more so, very much to Harry's advantage. I say once again- There is absolutely no need for Harry to be 100% cut off from the wizard world during the summer holiday. An hour or two here and there, or a day or two here and there at the beginning of summer would do a hell of a lot more for Harry's well being, than two weeks at the Burrow or Grimmauld place at the end of the summer. Also note that Harry's state of mind and general well being increase dramatically once he was at 12 Grimmauld Place. He just needed to not have to face his demons alone. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. Steve/asian-lovr2 From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Thu Jul 8 08:03:52 2004 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 08:03:52 -0000 Subject: Magic late in life (Re: The Opening Chapter of Book 6) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104998 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, brittrossiter at y... wrote: > > I actually think that Filch is the most likely candidate for > realisation of some "late in life" magic ability. If Hogwarts comes > under any sort of peril in the next books, then he's like to be in > close proximity to physical danger, and those Kwikspell courses may > have actually been able to teach him a thing or two. Who knows, maybe > having Filch doing a bit of magic might make him even seem somewhat > sympathetic? > > Britt (who wonders what Mrs. Norris sees in Filch) Hickengruendler: I agree with you. And I want to add, that I think Filch is also the one, who deserves most to show magic. Not because he is such a nice person (of course he's not), but because he is the one who tries to learn. Maybe Mrs Figg, does, too, but we don't know it, and the Dursleys surely don't. I think it would be fair if the character who actually tries everything to learn it will finally succeed. Hickengruendler From kandbmom at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 02:41:02 2004 From: kandbmom at yahoo.com (kandbmom) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 02:41:02 -0000 Subject: The Opening Chapter of Book 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 104999 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" wrote: > JKR has told us via her website that she tried to use a version of > the forthcoming opening chapter at the beginning of PS/SS, PoA and > OoP. So of course I've been trying to work it out what it could > relate to. The question before talks about the chapter she wanted to write for SS. In it she talks about how Hermione's Dad sees an explosion and goes to investigate and finds the Potters dead. I think she is going to go back to the day the Potters died and tie in the importance of that day. I believe Voldermort was not alone when he killed the Potters and he was with other DE and this chapter will tie in DEs that we know and don't know including Snape and the LeStranges and possibly Rita Skeeter. "kandbmom" From mietoesarepink at comcast.net Thu Jul 8 03:09:04 2004 From: mietoesarepink at comcast.net (Maren Gest) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 21:09:04 -0600 Subject: CoS question was: Re: Dumbledore evil?? Message-ID: <001701c46498$ed0f8380$6401a8c0@C3P0> No: HPFGUIDX 105000 If infallible wasn't Jk's word, how do we know that someone didn't make that bit of information about the interviews up? By adding the word infallible it might totaly change what JK was trying to convey. Did Jk say that Dumbledore and Hermione are the only two characters that don't lie or mislead the readers, or is that how you perceive them? "Maren" From pandrea100 at hotmail.com Thu Jul 8 03:16:35 2004 From: pandrea100 at hotmail.com (pandrea100) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 03:16:35 -0000 Subject: What next for Luna? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105001 I'm sure this has been discussed many times in the past, but what do people think is in store for Luna now? I don't expect her to become a 'third best friend' or anything, but like Neville and the others, I do think she may well have a significant part to play in the books from now on. Will some weird thing she believes in turn out to be true? Will it be revealed that in fact Sirius WAS Stubby Boardman? Will she try and get off with Ron, thereby making Hermione jealous? I think she's a great character, a brilliant addition to the series, but I have no idea what will happen to her. Pandrea From pandrea100 at hotmail.com Thu Jul 8 03:13:05 2004 From: pandrea100 at hotmail.com (pandrea100) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 03:13:05 -0000 Subject: Hogsmeade: Sixth Year? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105002 Now that Sirius is dead, will the permission slip he signed for Harry to go to Hogsmeade still stand? I can't really see the teachers being mean enough to take permission away from Harry, it would be crushingly tactless, but technically it should no longer apply. Usually for these things parents have to give renewed permission every school year. Well, I don't suppose the issue will even arise, but I think this might bug me a little if we see him going off to Hogsmeade as usual. Pandrea From stargaz77 at aol.com Thu Jul 8 03:49:19 2004 From: stargaz77 at aol.com (celestina707) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 03:49:19 -0000 Subject: Why would Lily be spared? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105003 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Jocelyn Grunow > wrote: > > What about this quote: > > > > " but your mother needn't have died... she was trying to protect you" > > > > WHAT! > > > > WHY would Voldie, terror of the WW, have spared Lily? > I'm jumping in a bit late on this one, but I have my on theory on this one...if its already been discussed, please excuse my post here, as I am new to this site and am having a hard time keeping up!!! What if there was another prophecy we don't know of yet....or information regarding James's ancestory that we are unaware of yet... in which James is the decendant of GG and that James and any of James's offspring would be the one powerful enough to defeat LV.This would explain why LV sought to kill James and Harry but not Lily. As far as Lily is concerned, its possible that although LV doesn't understand love or never had the experience of being loved, he is a smart enough wizard to recognize that if Lily gave her life to protect Harry out of love, it could reinforce whatever protection Lily was able to give Harry before LV arrived to kill him. Since Lily refused to leave Harry and get out of the way, LV was forced to kill her anyway, perhaps thinking an opportunity to attack Harry unhindered with Lily dead so he could defeat his nemesis was a wiser choice for him regardless, but completely underestimating the protection her love gave Harry. I know I am grasping at straws here.....but it's fun anyway!!! Celestina (who is so glad to meet other potterheads as completely obsessed as she is with all things Harry Potter :) From deb_mathews at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 8 04:14:18 2004 From: deb_mathews at sbcglobal.net (lilysphoenix) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 04:14:18 -0000 Subject: AnHBP Clue? In-Reply-To: <070820040155.29802.40ECA98A0006B6830000746A21603763160B070AADD2BBD20201AD@att.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105004 > -------------- Original message from "lilysphoenix" : -------------- > I was re reading OoP, when I came across this excerpt that I had so > freely dismissed the first time around: Ron Reid: > That quote is from POA not OOTP. And was for the saftey of Harry. Thanks, I've been reading bits and pieces from all of the books here and there, and my books are currently out on loan. However, I realize that the cars were for the saftey of Harry, but I was concentrating on the fact that Fred used the initials "HB" in reference to Percy. I thought that may be significant considering the HBP craze that has swept over Potterland. This just seems a little too coincidental for JKR, but then again, there was Mark Evans... Debra From sad1199 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 04:28:57 2004 From: sad1199 at yahoo.com (sad1199) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 04:28:57 -0000 Subject: Wands? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105005 Some questions... Is Hermione's wand only stronger when Harry uses it? It seems to be normal when she uses it. Maybe whatever is in Hermione's wand (I am thinking not a Phoenix feather-Fawlke's mate or not) is something that enhances Harry's powers. What was in Lily's wand? How many wands have the same core? As in HP and LV both having Fawlkes feather? Also what is in Dumbledore's wand? Please help, Sad1199 From smartone56441070 at aol.com Thu Jul 8 04:34:13 2004 From: smartone56441070 at aol.com (smartone564) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 04:34:13 -0000 Subject: Pensieve = Security Camera? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105006 Carol wrote: > As for Snape studying his own memories, that's a distinct possibility, > but he was clearly using the Pensieve for a different purpose (hiding > his memories from Harry and thus from Voldemort) during the Occlumency > lessons. A Pensieve (his own or Dumbledore's) would certainly come in > handy for spy!Snape as a way of concealing thoughts and memories from > Voldemort if he ever has to confront him directly rather than > indirectly through Lucius Malfoy. If the pensieve allows you to get all information, visual/ auditory/ etc. in some radius around the person's who memory it is, couldn't teachers use this as a powerful weapon in class? They could wander around and see what their students were actually doing. I thought that up from an earlier thread, but it got rejected due to not following posting rules. However, couldn't a spy put his thoughts into a pensieve and gain information, as Carol said? Also, couldn't Harry put his memory of the GY and hear what was said by LV to the out-of-earshot DEs? Though I think this might be a little unfair to JKR, this is a rather cheap way of gaining information. Another thing, when DD recalled the prophecy, Trelawney came out and formed, instead of going in. Why is this? Can DD just control it, since he used his wand to find it, as opposed to when Harry touched it? Or was this just to leave out all the details required to re-invent the prophecy scene (a.k.a. writer's license)? Smart From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Thu Jul 8 04:39:17 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 8 Jul 2004 04:39:17 -0000 Subject: Sirius, James and Banking Message-ID: <20040708043917.30603.qmail@webmail31.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105007 >> Del replies : >> I agree that DD is *training* the kids, but I disagree that they >> should be made members of the Order. At least not before the end of >> OoP, not before they fully realise what is really at stake. >> Harry is the only exception. He's fought LV several times, and he's >> *already* proven that he doesn't break under pressure. Amey here: I think Harry also breaks under pressure, except when it is not life and death situation. But I can't read OOtP and say that Harry is fully matured yet. He still is placuing emotions before liogic. ("You shouldn't bottle your anger like that. Maybe a muggle one mile away hasn't heard you"-Fred/George, not exact quote). And remember him placing blame on Snape for Sirius' death. That is in my mind in the same league as twins' shouting at Sirius. >> lavaluvn at yahoo.com writes: > >I suspect that Snape doesn't have a Patronus, due to not having any > >happy memories. (Yes, Andromeda!) > Ah! A kindred spirit! > Amey: You don't need a happy memory, just Happy thought. Seeing Sirius die would be enough for Snape to produce a perfect Petronus. Also, aren't we judging all his memories only on 2 we have seen? I mean Harry has seen 2 memories of Dumbledore, but thinking those are the only ones he has will definitely be improper. >> Bren now: >> t struck me odd though, when I was reading all the posts re: Animagi >> and what it means. How Stag is the alpha-male dear and Dog is a >> faithful, dead loyal (literally) and best-friend. But why though? >> What makes James more 'alpha-male' than Sirius? Amey here: I just thought of a dog used ot round up the ships or any flock here. Sorry, I think it is a totally unrelated thought. >> Carol: >> It was also Tom Riddle Jr., >> future Head Boy at Hogwarts, who murdered his father and >> grandparents--three Avada Kedavras in one day by a boy of about >> seventeen. >> IOW, as I see it, he >> is still both Tom Riddle and Voldemort, and I think that's how JKR >> sees it as well because that's how he's been presented to us. Amey: Remember what fake Moody says about AK? "You need a powerful bit of dark magic to work it. You can all point your wands at me and I won't get anything more than a nosebleed" (Sorry not exact quote). SO Tom at that age was able to produce not one but three (at least form what we know) perfect AKs. That's pretty much Dark Wizard for me. >> Steve/asian_lovr2 >> For the record- >> I think HARRY is the JINX on the DADA teaching position. The bad luck >> began when he arrived, and when Harry is finally gone from school, the >> bad luck on the job will go with him. >> For what it's worth. Amey: Harry can't the jinx on the job as according to Hgrid and Dumbledore, the change is going on for quite some time. - James Lawlor - How did Sirius order that Firebolt without giving himself away? How -did he get the money out of his vault? And for that matter, how did -Mrs. Weasley get money out of Harry's vault? Amey: If I remember right, Hagrid foes to Bank with Harry in SS/PS, and the Goblin just asks whether he has Key for Harry's vault. That's it, no identification needed. Also, as for Sirius, I am thinking of internet shopping. And now, a totally different thought. What happens to 12,GP as Sirius is dead? If it is inherited by Lestranges or Malfoys, the Order loses Headquarters. Also, now that the last Black is dead, what happens to Kreacher? Is he free (horrible thought)? Or does he continue to serve whoever inherits the house? (I think Harry will inherit it) Amey, thinking that Harry will move to 12,GP as his own house and we will see one more head on elves' line (Kreacher's)... Sorry Hermione... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tubadave at normalview.com Thu Jul 8 04:50:57 2004 From: tubadave at normalview.com (Big D) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 04:50:57 -0000 Subject: A HBP Clue? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105008 Debra: > I was re reading OoP, when I came across this excerpt that I had > so freely dismissed the first time around: "How're we getting to > King's Cross tomorrow, Dad?" asked Fred as > they dug into a sumptuous pudding. "The Ministry's providing a > couple of cars," said Mr. Weasley. Everyone looked up at > him. "Why?" said Percy curiously. "It's because of you, Perce," > said George seriously. "And there'll be little flags on the > hoods, with HB on them-" "-for Humongous Bighead," said Fred. > > Could the HB be a clue? Humongous Bighead Percy = HBP??? It just > seems a little too coincidental for me, but what do I know? Big D: If we're sticking to the common theory that the HBP must, in fact, be a half-blood, then Percy doesn't qualify. But it's really hard to say for sure....it could be a slight play on words, with HBP indicating a champion of half-bloods, rather than an actual half- blood. That would support the theories of many that Dumbledore is the HBP, and also rather indirectly supports my ideas regarding Godric Gryffindor. If that is the case, that sure would be a surprise, to have the estranged Weasley son turn out to be a major player in the next book. Good job spotting that. "K": > Good find! I just hope it's not Percy. Yet he was snooping around > quite a bit in CoS. Big D: I thought it was established that all his "sneaking around" in CoS was because he was secretly meeting up with Penelope Clearwater? Am I remembering that incorrectly? Big D From smartone56441070 at aol.com Thu Jul 8 04:50:34 2004 From: smartone56441070 at aol.com (smartone564) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 04:50:34 -0000 Subject: HE Train Driver (was Re: The Hogwarts refreshment witch) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105009 Gina now: > Notice we have never seen the driver? Lupin said he must go > have a word with the driver but we never know why or what was > said or who he is. Does anyone other than me find this funny? Never occured to me before, but yes, this is very true. Who could the driver be? Maybe it's someone like the wizard that lets out the students in groups at the end of the year (as in a normal, unnamed character), or it could be someone important. While DD springs to mind, what is the likelyhood that he has time for this? Also, does a magical train need a driver, or is this just for show (to avoid Muggle notice)? Smart From sad1199 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 04:54:15 2004 From: sad1199 at yahoo.com (sad1199) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 04:54:15 -0000 Subject: Homosexuality in HP (was Re: Ringdear of the Marauders: Sirius or James?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105010 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "(Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The > Healing Force)" wrote: > > > Personally, I didn't read any homosexual innuendo or anything in OOTP. I > > saw people who cared for each other as really good friends do. Why is it > > that if the word "affectionate" is used with men, the possibility of > > homosexuality is brought forth? > > Alla: > > It is entirely possible that this was friendly affection (most likely > even). It is just I want them to be more than friends, that is all. :) > Even though as I said Remus/Sirius is not my favourite ship, any gay > ship will be fine, if JKR decideds to show them in the book. Sad1199 says: Why should there be any homosexual relationships in the book at all? Unless HP is gay, there is no reason to have any kind of homosexual relationship anywhere else. I mean, if Sirius was gay (I say not!) how would that affect the end of the series? JKR does not seem the type to have unnecessary relationships and/or characters in her books, so why bother? From smartone56441070 at aol.com Thu Jul 8 05:19:24 2004 From: smartone56441070 at aol.com (smartone564) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 05:19:24 -0000 Subject: GH/HBP and beyond (Re: JKR requested bat shot in PS/SS film...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105011 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" wrote: > "fridwulfa hagrid" wrote: > > > > We know that the scene where we see Lily's being murdered, the flashback, > > contained, at first, the murder of James too. JK asked especifically that > > only Lily should be seen. That reinforced the idea that the male voice Harry > > hears when the dementors approach him "It's him, Lily, take Harry and > > run..." was not James's, that James was maybe already dead and there was a > > third person in the house. Snape and Lupin are the favourite theories. > -------------- > > > That's three separate occassions where Harry has heard the voice of > James--and, as he is the one who heard them, I think if Harry failed to notice > a way that the voice in his Dementor-induced memories ill-fit the other two > voice examples, then I say it was James. Harry may be thick at times but I > have a feeling those three lone times he heard his father are quite burned > vividly into his memory. I say James is James and James is dead. Alright, I find your reasoning for the last paragraph (dying words) to make a great deal of sense. But how does someone get AKed and still have dying words, or was he injured, and knew it was the end? Also, I think the wording of what he said that wouldn't tip off LV might be interesting, unless LV was in a mad rush/ giddiness by then and wasn't too aware of his surroundings (why I think he told Lily to move). Finally, I have a few theories on the HBP (but, unfortunately, without any canon, because I can't even think of any to support it). You expertly explained how James is not likely to be the voice that Harry hears, but you never even hinted as to who it might be. Therefore, I think the new DADA teacher will be the HBP, a completely new character, or atleast one we haven't heard enough about. The HBP will have some important information for Harry (even the odd voice that night?), like Lupin in PoA. Then, after he leaves this year (the connection to Sirius, dies elsewhere, shunned??), Snape becomes next year's DADA, and then he and DD go down in the end. Smart, who has discovered in writing it, this idea can hold water about as well as a screened door can resist the rain. From garyfredogal at hotmail.com Thu Jul 8 05:31:34 2004 From: garyfredogal at hotmail.com (garyfredogal at hotmail.com) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 05:31:34 -0000 Subject: Must the prince be human? In-Reply-To: <00a401c46498$73ef84a0$1c5aaacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105012 Amanda: > Does the half-blood prince have to be a human? Tina: Maybe a half-blood species in general even, like Firenze? You are correct, we don't know if the HBP is half and half of. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 08:37:59 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 08:37:59 -0000 Subject: Chapt. Discussion: Chapter 22 - Harry's Support In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105013 Steve wrote : > While you are telling us the way it is, we are telling you the way it > should have been. Del replies : No, I'm telling you why the way you think it should have been *could not* be. And also sometimes why it shouldn't have been at all. Steve wrote : > The orignal questions that sparked this were about whether Harry was > properly supported by the adults around him. I think the answer is > that he was not. Del replies : Sometimes he was, and sometimes he wasn't. And when he wasn't, it was mostly because the adults had much more pressing matters on their hands. That's the problem with being an orphan with no readily available guardian : it's nobody's job to take care of you. It's cruel but it's true. I grew up without a father, but I don't resent any of the men that were close to me for not stepping in : it wasn't their job. They could have chosen to do so, but they had no obligation to. Steve wrote : > Also, to your point that Harry wouldn't take any help that might have > been offerred to him. Believe it or not, that's not the point, take > it or not, at least it was offerred, at least he knows it's there if > he needs it. It's not about taking the help, it's about the comfort > of knowing the help and support is there. Del replies : But it was always there ! Even when he was left alone at the Dursleys', he was still receiving letters from his friends. It was limited support I agree, but it was support nonetheless. Had Ron and Hermione been there in person, they would not have been able to tell him more. And once Harry got to GP, it was very obvious that many people were willing to help him : Sirius, Remus, Molly... The problem is that Harry didn't see that, and also that he didn't want to talk. But the support was always there. Moreover, there's another problem : what help can anyone give Harry anyway ? All they can do is listen, but Harry doesn't want to talk. They can't relate to what he's feeling, they don't know what it's like, they can't give him any useful advice for fighting LV. Just telling him "I'm there" will do Harry no good. Steve wrote : > None of my suggestions compromised the priorities of The Order in any > way. Mrs. Figg was already there watching over Harry. Her presents > didn't drain any resources from other tasks because that IS her task. > She did, in fact, invite Harry to tea several times, and if Harry had > know she was a Squib in contact with the Order and Dumbledore, he > would have been there in a second. Del replies : Harry was *dumped* at Mrs Figg's by the Dursleys when they went celebrating Dudley's birthday, back before Harry went to Hogwarts. Mrs Figg never invited him. It would have looked mightily odd if she started inviting him suddenly this summer, for no reason. Steve wrote : > In addition, Harry protectors visible at Figg's place would not have > had to compromise their secretly following Harry. They could pretend > like they dropped by to check on Mrs. Figg. Again, Harry would have > had company and a connection to the wizard world, and someone to talk > to. These guards are already there in Little Whinging, it just a > matter of whether the cloak is off or on. Del replies : I don't think you understood the full extent of my explanation as to why Harry was left alone. The Order was trying to determine LV's intentions. So they left Harry very visibly alone as a *bait*. Any DE who might have been sent to check on Harry must never see Harry with another wizard. And if you think a simple wall can block the view, think of Mad-Eye Moody's eye again. And I'd like to point that this plan worked very well indeed, even if it was not LV who ate the bait. I'm sure Umbridge sent spies to Little Whinging before she sent the Dementors. If she'd seen Harry with other wizards, it could have spelled troubles for the Order. Steve wrote : > That would have certainly reduced his sense of isolation. That > certainly would have increased his comfort level. That certainly > would have allayed his anxiety level. And would have actually made > the job of his personal invisible guards easier. It would be a lot > easier to guard Harry when his guards could be visible at Figg's > house, than it is to follow him aimlessly around the neighborhood. > Contained at Figg's is certainly safer that wandering around in the > open. Del replies : If the Order's only goal had been to guard Harry, they would have sent a member to *live* at the Dursleys'. Or maybe just Ron and Hermione for that matter : they could have stayed in Harry's room all day long, and go out when an adult member came around to visit them. Now *that* would have made Harry's life easier. But it would have thwarted the Order's *primary goal* : force LV to move. Steve wrote : > I say once again- There is absolutely no need for Harry to be 100% > cut off from the wizard world during the summer holiday. Del replies : And I say once again : there was probably a very good reason for him to be isolated. By the way, Harry was no more cut off from the WW than his previous years, or than any other Muggle-born kid. He received the Daily Prophet and letters fron his friends. What he was cut off from was the activity of the Order - and that was intentional. Steve wrote : > Also note that Harry's state of mind and general well being increase > dramatically once he was at 12 Grimmauld Place. He just needed to not > have to face his demons alone. Del replies : What he needed most of all were answers. He got mad at Ron and Hermione when they coudn't give him any. And he felt better when he learned all he was allowed to know. In fact, I'm always amazed at how little his demons seem to bother him. Sure he has nightmares about Cedric dying, but that's about it. No much IMO. That is *my* story and I'm sticking to it, at least until someone comes and convinces me otherwise :-) Del From adanabbett at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 06:00:41 2004 From: adanabbett at yahoo.com (Adan) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 06:00:41 -0000 Subject: Snape in Bk 6 & & (Was: New characters in Book 6) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105014 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > If the pattern of the DADA teacher dying or losing his/her job at the > end of the book holds true, Snape can't be the DADA teacher in Book 6, > as JKR has stated in an interview that he'll play a key role in Book > 7. (If he becomes DADA teacher in Book 7, I'll worry about his > survival. As it is, we have what amounts to a promise that he'll > survive past the end of Book 6.) > > I know you haven't forgotten this exchange, but others may not be > familiar with it: > > Q: "There's an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape." > JKR: "He, um, there's so much I wish I could say to you, and I can't > because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, can > I just say to you that I'm slightly stunned that you've said that and > you'll find out why I'm so stunned if you read Book 7. That's all I'm > going to say." > > Complete interview at > http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1999/1099- connectiontransc.html > > So for good or for ill, Snape will be around in Book 7 and there's no > good reason to make him the DADA teacher now (unless Harry isn't > taking NEWT Potions and I don't think that will happen, but I won't > get sidetracked on that here). Thank you so much for posting that as I am one of those that was not familiar with it, until now. And Snape, well, I love thinking about him. He's so...charcoal. I think he is on a redemptive path, but one that may or may not end positively. I think that JKR uses the bat symbology for that purpose. Thanks to the Fantastic Posts section, I know that there have been many posts on Snape being a batanimagus and/or a vampire, and while I used to be a pretty strong believer in that myself I have no wish to start anything up with that. BUT... *opening my much-loved Penguin Dictionary of Symbols, which never worked this hard in school* Vampires are a self-destructing phenomenon, a turning of psychic/psychological force upon themself, but failing to acknowledge that they are responsible for their own setbacks, they imagine that it is 'someone else's fault'. V exist until the problems of adapting to oneself and their social environment is solved. Until then, psychologically, they become a TORMENT TO ONESELF AND TO OTHERS. Snape might be cruel to the students and pretty unfriendly to everyone in general, but you never really have evidence of him giving himself any slack, either. Now, the bat, in some traditions, sybolizes a person whose spiritual development has stagnated or been hamstrung. They are bogged down in an intermediate phase, unable to go higher. As suggested in their flight abilities, he must "continuously work to maintain ground- clinging flight and never soar... Doomed forever to beat its wings, the bat can never enjoy the dynamic ease of gliding flight." (Penguin Dictionary of Symbols, p72). Snape certainly works hard at his potions, and expects the same from his students. Did the pensieve scene give evidence to an abusive childhood, enough to have stumped his growth? I think there could be worse than what we've seen so far. Some Germanic-influenced works of art use the bat to symbolize ENVY. As a bat flies at dusk and dard, envy works in the shadows. Similarly, the bat is blinded by daylight, just as the envious can not bear the light to shine on others. This, to me, is really, really it. Losing the Order of Merlin, expecting his students to perform extremely well on OWLs, even helping Dumbledore in mysterious jobs that no one else seems capable of performing... those are ways he is trying to stand out, trying to get that acknowledgement from others, but also proving something to himself. But, so far, that glow seems to go to HRH, and especially Harry. I just wish I could figure out what his deal was with Neville, other than spite. I'd hate to think it was that simple. So, I think the symbology of the bat and the vampire fit for Snape even if the physical manifestations do not. And I would like to think that he can overcome all that, but I'm afraid he really might not. Oh, and even if the "Kettle of Nackledirk" is one big joke, that still makes me think of a big ol' potion pot with Snape working the spoon. Adan, wondering that if Snape really does turn out bad in Book 7 if he would be a septuple-crossing agent working his own agenda. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 08:42:39 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 08:42:39 -0000 Subject: Hogsmeade: Sixth Year? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105015 Pandrea wrote: > Now that Sirius is dead, will the permission slip he signed for Harry > to go to Hogsmeade still stand? Del replies : If it doesn't, I don't think it would be any problem to have Vernon sign a new one. He's not the one with the power anymore. Del From adanabbett at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 06:07:22 2004 From: adanabbett at yahoo.com (Adan) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 06:07:22 -0000 Subject: Secret Chamber in Malfoy Mansion (was Ringdear of Marauders: Sirius or James?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105016 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brenda M." This reminds me of that secret chamber > in Malfoy mansion. I think Draco mentions it in passing in CoS ('of > course, Father's got a chamber of his own...') I wonder if we'd ever > get a glimpse of it, and what is hidden in it. Could it be somehow > connected to the Chamber of Secrets in Hogwarts? > > Maybe this is the "small thing" in CoS that will be important later > on? Oh, I do like this. He does have that little chamber, probably filled with *alleged* nasty stuff, at least according to what Mr. Borgin (or was it Burke?) said in CoS. Sorry, the book went to Florida with my boy... Plus, I'd just really like to see how the Malfoys live. "Adan" From eeyore6771 at comcast.net Thu Jul 8 06:15:24 2004 From: eeyore6771 at comcast.net (Pat) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 06:15:24 -0000 Subject: I am new- does anyone think Dumbledore HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105017 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kandbmom" wrote: > I am new to this and am completely hooked on HP. I am thinking > Dumbledore is the half blood prince and will have to sacrifice his > life to save Harry? Any thoughts? > > "kandbmom" I'm new here also, but not new to HP. I started reading the books when the first two came out as paperbacks in the US. So I've read and re-read all 5 too many times to mention. Dumbledore is one of the wizards on my list of possibilites for the HBP. We don't know much about his background. It would certainly fit with his attitude of acceptance to muggle borns and others who are not pure bloods. I've also thought of, in no particular order: Dean Thomas (though I think JKR has ruled this out, with saying that his story won't be used in the books) Seamus Finnigan Hagrid Firenze Theodore Nott (we know from JKR's site that his father was an older wizard who was widowed--but we don't know about his mother) Snape (we don't know much about his background either, except that his childhood wasn't a happy one) This little tidbit of information should certainly keep us busy for a while. ~eeyore (aka hollylawrence) From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Thu Jul 8 06:23:12 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 8 Jul 2004 06:23:12 -0000 Subject: Evans, Dumbledore and (again)Sirius Message-ID: <20040708062312.22808.qmail@webmail30.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105018 >> Potioncat: >> You're right. Mark Evans has generated tons of posts, but this week >> JKR told us....he is not a relative of Harry's. He's just another >> Evans. And he had such potential! >> I wonder if Mark Evans will join Marcus Flint as a term used by HP >> fans? We'll see posts that say something like "I think that's a >> Mark Evans" for something small that seems important but isn't. Amey: A great suggestion... (Hope this doesn't count as me too...) >> From: Jocelyn Grunow >> Subject: Why would Lily be spared? >> What about this quote: >> " but your mother needn't have died... she was trying to protect you" >> WHAT! >> WHY would Voldie, terror of the WW, have spared Lily? Do you think LV was lying? It is just such an odd thing to say. Amey: He was there to fulfill prophesy (at kleast that's what he thought). SO he would have let Lily live in the joy of fulfilling prophesy and being invincible. (I wonder how much the *unknown* heard) >> Anette >> But but but, I went quite angry with DD after reading book 5. He is very selfish >> and thinks more of what he thinks is right to tell Harry than just tell Harry >> what he ought to know. Ok, DD admits that he should have told Harry the truth a >> long time ago, but Harry can't use that to anything! >> I still have a feeling that DD hasn't told Harry everything. Amey: Let me count what he hasn't told: 1. Snape 2. Order 3. Protection 4. His lineage etc etc. Anybody care to add points here. >> Ally: >> I agree that Snape has his own problems (I actually think they both >> are quite alike in terms of being arrested in their emotional >> development), but the fact that Snape is petty doesn't justify Sirius >> being so - it just makes them both wrong. >> I think Sirius did endanger Remus. If he was discovered as a >> werewolf, he would have likely been imprisoned. If he had killed >> Snape, he probably would have been executed himself >> As for being imprisoned - well, yes, he was. Sirius is really no >> different after imprionment than he was after the Prank. So not only >> did he not change when he was in prison, but he apparently didn't >> change much before going there either, unlike James, who did mature >> and see the error of his ways at a young age. Yes, he had a hard >> life, but just as so many people say that's no excuse for Snape not >> changing, how can it be an excuse for Sirius not changing? Maybe it >> makes their faults understandable, but it doesn't make them >> acceptable. Amey: I was not comparing them there. As for imprisoning Remus if he was detected as werewolf, I haven't read anywhere that werewolves are imprisoned or anything. I think he thought Snape chicken enough not to risk his neck near Willow, forget about going to Shack. Also, he WAS (corry fopr caps) changed due to prison. Remember what we hear about Azkaban from Fred/George in PoA - dad went there for a vist and he came back all faint. (sorry, not exact words). Also, Hagrid is afraid to go to Azkaban (I think that's the only place he fears). So I don't buy that Azkaban can't change anybody. He was recovering from that. Can you say a person recovering from a long bout of 'flu is all weak and lazy? Same thing... He was trying to change. Do you think 2 years after a long imprisonment ( 1 year on the run, 1 year cooped up in the house he hates, not doing any active work) counts as a proper evaluation of a person's maturedness. I am not saying his faults are acceptable, but I will say it once more, his choices were made *for* him, not *by* him. And in WW, its your choices that define you. Why are we still judging him from one prank? In pensieve scene, he defended James, he didn't attack Snape on his own. And he won there, is it bad to win? So what I think is, judging Sirius from only one scene is not proper. There are other people (James) who were worse than him and still are thought of to be very good people. Why this injustice? Amey, again sorry for the long mail... Hope other members of SPL help me here, so I can keep my mails short. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From smartone56441070 at aol.com Thu Jul 8 06:38:28 2004 From: smartone56441070 at aol.com (smartone564) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 06:38:28 -0000 Subject: Think on This...... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105019 Ok, here I go..... 1.) Snape- need I say more? 2.) Hagrid- He did have a reason to go see the giants than just fail. Some of them will come, if only a small minority, but enough to reduce the gain of the rest of the giants for LV. Also, there is always the POSSIBILITY of Hagrid being the HBP..... but who knows besides JKR? 3. Monsters- Not just any ol' monsters, but those that have a name. Like Fluffy, Aragog and Masog are the few I can remember right now. I think these guys will come back, that the next books, but not have major roles, just to also battle the giants. Norbert, and to a lesser degree Grawp, had too small of a role to be in the books and take up whole chapters. Although Fluffy, Aragog, Masog and Grawp all had their own essential parts to their own books, Norbert....... did what exactly? They all got detention and saw the unicorn i suppose (I am thinking as I write), but I figure ONE of them will have a part to play. Oh, and Fawkes should fit in this category too, but he doesn't really seem to be a MONSTER to me, but a 'Fanstatic Beast.' And I can't forget Lupin.... but I believe his part will be obvious when it comes, particularly since JKR said his role would be larger. Therefore, I don't think he should really get one of the three. Smart From eeyore6771 at comcast.net Thu Jul 8 06:40:04 2004 From: eeyore6771 at comcast.net (Pat) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 06:40:04 -0000 Subject: The missing chapter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105020 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pandrea100" wrote: > wrote: > > One story that was vaguely mentioned that I can see being highly > > important is that of a clash that leads to Salazar Slytherin leaving > > hogwarts and making it never the same again... the sorting hat says > > about this much and then goes on with the song in OotP... > > That's a very good point. I did think that it was a little unusual > that the hat suddenly launched into this song, perhaps she was > setting up this 6th book knowing that she'd put the full story there. > And with the increasing importance of the theme of prejudice - > mudblood, halfblood, pureblood - the second half of the song about > how the school must unite and the Hat worries that it is making > things worse, could now take on greater importance. After all, that > whole chapter was titled The Sorting Hat's New Song, which makes it > seem significant, but it didn't really prove to be in OotP. You make a good point about the significance of the song being explained in HBP. I kept waiting for more on that on OotP, but it really wasn't there, except that it did become obvious that the discord among the houses was not helping. The founding of Dumbledore's Army was sort of the beginning of the unity that the Sorting Hat talks about, but there were no Slytherins in the group. And at the end of the book, we only see that the Slyths are still very against Harry--when they try to attack him on the train. Of course, that doesn't mean that they all are. It will be interesting to see if there is yet another new Sorting Hat song in the next book, that possibly elaborates on this one. At any rate, I'm sure that the warnings the Hat gave will be crucial in the next book. ~eeyore (aka hollylawrence) From kcawte at ntlworld.com Thu Jul 8 07:19:24 2004 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 08:19:24 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups]Re: Snape's House (was: Homosexuality in HP) References: <20040708070142.26512.qmail@web25109.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00a701c464bb$e57f1770$bcde6251@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 105021 Hans in Holland > Sorry to spoil your fun, but doesn't Sirius tell the Trio to which house > Snape belonged? > > GoF page 577 ("Padfoot Returns") Bloomsbury 2001: > "Snape knew more curses when he arrived at school than half the kids in > seventh year, and he was part of a gang of Slytherins who nearly all turned > out to be Death Eaters." Then follows a very interesting list. > K No Sirius *doesn't* tell the Trip Snape was a Slytherin. He implies it certainly but all we can say for sure from that quote is that his friends were Slytherins. Personally I believe Snape is Slytherin - but we've never had it 100% stated for sure. And on the homosexuality thing - if the WW does mirror the real world then the odds are high we've already met a few gay characters just because of the number we've met, just like we've probably met quite a few left handed people and people whodon't like fish etc etc. Unless it becomes important to the plot (and romance on the whole doesn't seem particularly vital to the plot) or someone very close to Harry suddenly outs themselves I don't think we'll ever know for sure. It's not like you can tell just from looking at someone and Harry isn't always that observant about things happening around him anyway. K From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 07:50:53 2004 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 07:50:53 -0000 Subject: Defending Percy ( was Percy Weasley ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105022 Pam: > > I see Percy as imperfect, and not without strengths--not evil, but > > having very befuddled values. Del: > In fact, Percy does *not* have befuddled values at all, quite the > contrary ! He's got very clear values, and he sticks to them very > stricly. And they are not even bad values : he believes that hard work > brings success and that you should respect those in power. What's > wrong with that ?? > Not to mention that he's always been reinforced in his beliefs by > everyone that counted. He was a model student and got only praises for > that : his parents were proud of him and DD made him Head Boy. How > could he figure that there might be something wrong with hard-working > ambition ? (I want to emphasize the fact that Percy associates success > with hard work, at least for himself. He doesn't try to find himself a > big friend, unlike Peter Pettigrew, he works to achieve his goals.) > > So what's wrong with Percy ? I'm not sure but I'd say he's horribly > insecure. Too insecure to dare and change his own rules and risk his > identity. Sticking to his values has always worked before, so he can > surely rely on them again, right ? Well, wrong, but how could he see > it ? After all, he's asked to believe Harry with no proof whatsoever, > and in the process, to risk what he's worked for all his life : his job. Katie: I should preface this by saying that I'm probably quite biased. I dislike Percy probably more than any other "good" character in the books. (The reasons for this are detailed below.) I see JKR setting Percy up as the classic "collaborator" figure- someone who will follow the rules and try to please those in authority even when it becomes obvious that the rules are wrong. I think Percy is highly intelligent but doesn't have an advanced grasp of morality. (For what it's worth, I think Percy could be said to be stuck in the "conventional" stages of Kohlberg's model... but I'm sure y'all don't want to hear any more HP psychoanalysis from me ;)) There's nothing inherently wrong with respecting those in power. It is, however, VERY important to realize when those in power are corrupt or acting from the wrong motives. I don't think Percy understands this. Even if Fudge were ousted, I think Percy would rationalize this, severing his loyalties to Fudge and clinging to the Ministry's decisions. I don't see him losing reverence for the MOM's policies unless it threatened someone he deeply loved. If we do see a Percy-turnaround later on, I'd bet it would be preceded by the Weasleys being in serious trouble, probably even by the death of a Weasley. So, where do I get this in canon? Well, particularly from Percy's letter to Ron. I get a real "don't rock the boat" vibe from Percy's advice, and he seems far more concerned about the possibilities of Ron's future career than the morality of the situation. In fact, he doesn't really even seem to consider the moral implications of what he is saying. I think the Percys of this world are much more dangerous than the Siriuses (Sirii? ;)) Percy (and those like him) seems to be extremely productive and admirable when his source of authority is positive, but when that authority is negative, he can't recognize the difference and will continue to rationalize "official" decisions until something severe happens. -Katie From spoonmerlin at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 08:16:52 2004 From: spoonmerlin at yahoo.com (Brent) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 08:16:52 -0000 Subject: Must the prince be human? In-Reply-To: <00a401c46498$73ef84a0$1c5aaacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105023 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" wrote: > Does the half-blood prince have to be a human? I was thinking along the same lines. One thing I noticed in going over CoS is the Basilisk (chapter 16) is described as also known as the King of Serpents" could this be some clue that some half Basilisk creature will be released maybe something that gives a human long life like the Basilisk and can kill as some kind of assassin for LV. It's a long shot but I thought it was an interesting coincidence. "Brent" From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 08:54:52 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 08:54:52 -0000 Subject: Harry's glasses (was Re: Foreshadowing for books 6 & 7- PoA DVD on the way!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105024 Diana wrote: > After seeing PoA yet again in IMAX last week, I'm now certain that > Harry losing his glasses at the Whomping Willow foreshadows him > losing his glasses at a critical time in book 6 and/or 7. There's > just no other reason for this scene to be in the movie... Del replies : In fact, it's quite bothering that the glasses have not been causing more troubles already in the first 5 books. So they prevent him from seeing well during a rainy match ? Big deal. I wear glasses too, and I can tell you that they are much more annoying that just that, in RL. For one, Harry is lucky they never fell off his nose during one of his acrobatic encounters with LV or any other baddy : falling, jumping, being dragged and carried, and so on, and they never move ?? And for two, he never has to change them. Lucky boy, that his vision should have stabilised as early as 11. Del, who wonders why JKR made Harry wear glasses, if they don't cause him any trouble. From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Thu Jul 8 08:56:13 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 8 Jul 2004 08:56:13 -0000 Subject: Kettle and Diaries Message-ID: <20040708085613.8311.qmail@webmail9.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105025 Potioncat: Charlie Weasley will die fighting off a dragon as the potion-making is happening and Snape, alas, will soon follow. He will at last show his bravery as he stands between dragon and students, arms spread out and wand forgotten, protecting the students from the dragon's charge as 17 year old Hermione apparates back to Harry with the finished Potion. Amey: You forgot Hagrid taming that dragon. So there will not be any other casualties, except Draco, who will try and say something clever (like he did to Buckbeak) and this time will get a blast of fire instread of claws. I mean, Crabbe and Goyle cannot help against dragons. And also, Lockhart trying to give dragons his signed photoes. >>-Jane >>Sirius is not really dead. Where is the body? I have watched too many >>movies and tv shows to believe in a death without a body. If he was >>really really permanently dead then there would have been a body and a >>funeral. Amey: But Nick clearly says that Sirius has decided to go ahead (to greater adventures...) and he won't come back. That's for me as good as dead, though I am not saying he may not contact Harry in some other way. We have yet to see his last adventure. >>vmonte responds: >>I was just thinking today that I wished I had a diary that could make >>another version of me that would stay home and clean the house and >>feed my family while I sneaked out to the day spa. >> Hell, why not another version of Sirius! Amey: Another version of Sirius is not bad idea, but think of another Snape or Lucius (Sorry to all Snape lovers for taking both names in same sentence, I don't think he is as bad as Lucius). Amey, who is thinking of some more funny theories... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Thu Jul 8 09:25:01 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 09:25:01 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore to be trusted? In-Reply-To: <001201c463cd$1bc09d30$6401a8c0@C3P0> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105026 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Maren Gest" wrote: > Has anyone else noticed that Dumbledore seems to never be around when somethings happening with Harry and Voldemort (The first book he was called away on importaint duties, the second the govenors sent him away, and the fourth he wasn't there for the graveyeard part) The 5th book is the only one with Voldemort in it that Dumbledore was there to help, but it wasn't until he very end did he intervine. I think its possible that Dumbledore is not really as good as we think he is. Also how is it possible for Dumbledore not to catch that Pro. Moody in book four is not the real Moody? Even in the Penisive Dumbledore seems to be some what friends with the old man, and they have known each other for a long time. Mr.Weasley even says Dumbledore never miss' a trick, so how is it possible that he wasn't able to tell a good friend was an imposter, Fake Moody couldn't have been that good of an imposter?! > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] He has his own agenda all right. That damn plan of his. What is it? He seems to have confided in no-one - why? Many posters have been driven to distraction trying to untangle DD's motives. I've previously wondered if he somehow has prior knowledge of significant events in the life and times of Harry Potter (79455, 79546). That whole thread ("Inside Dumbledore's Head") is well worth perusing. You might enjoy 65696 "FLOOZY No.1 The Dumbledore Papers" if you like a lighter touch. If you really want to get down and dirty then MAGICDISHWASHER and its offshoots are the ones to savour. But what we all want is for some-one to take these old threads, give 'em a good shaking and hopefully come up with a fresh insight. Go to it! Kneasy From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 09:28:46 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 09:28:46 -0000 Subject: Defending Percy ( was Percy Weasley ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105027 Katie wrote : > I see JKR setting Percy up as the classic "collaborator" figure- > someone who will follow the rules and try to please those in > authority even when it becomes obvious that the rules are wrong. Del replies : But it is NOT obvious that the rules are wrong ! Fudge knew what he was doing when he refused to follow DD, but Percy and the rest of the WW don't know that. Percy hasn't met neither Harry nor DD since LV's return, he wasn't there at the parting of the ways. He's aked to follow Harry, DD and his parents *blindly*, even when *everything* points to the fact that they are crack-heads having collective hallucinations ! What's so wrong in refusing to do that ?? Katie wrote : > I think Percy is highly intelligent but doesn't have an advanced > grasp of morality. Del replies : Could you define what you mean by morality ? Katie wrote : > There's nothing inherently wrong with respecting those in power. > It is, however, VERY important to realize when those in power are > corrupt or acting from the wrong motives. I don't think Percy > understands this. Del replies : Yes he does. He "realized" that DD, whom he respected very much just a few years before, has lost his marbles. And also that Harry, whom he quite liked, has turned into a dangerously delusive liar. Percy understood the concept very well, he just made a mistake in applying it. And considering the little info he had, it was a very easy mistake to make IMO. Katie wrote : > Even if Fudge were ousted, I think Percy would rationalize this, > severing his loyalties to Fudge and clinging to the Ministry's > decisions. I don't see him losing reverence for the MOM's policies Del replies : I don't understand : why *should* he ? It was indeed Fudge who was wrong, not the Ministry policies. Once the Minister changes, the Ministry will realign itself, and Percy will do good to follow. Katie wrote : > So, where do I get this in canon? Well, particularly from Percy's > letter to Ron. I get a real "don't rock the boat" vibe from Percy's > advice, and he seems far more concerned about the possibilities of > Ron's future career than the morality of the situation. In fact, he > doesn't really even seem to consider the moral implications of what > he is saying. Del replies : I don't see what moral implications you mean. Could you extrapolate ? And I don't see anything wrong with a big brother telling his little brother that his current best friend can lead him into big troubles. In fact, I find that admirable. Isn't it what we all want to do when we see an "innocent" kid fraying with "bad boys" ? Percy is thinking about Ron's future, and he's telling him to be strong and to take whatever measure might be necessary to protect himself from Harry and DD's crazy actions. I wouldn't call that "don't rock the boat", quite the opposite in fact. Katie wrote : > I think the Percys of this world are much more dangerous than the > Siriuses (Sirii? ;)) Percy (and those like him) seems to be > extremely productive and admirable when his source of authority is > positive, but when that authority is negative, he can't recognize > the difference and will continue to rationalize "official" decisions > until something severe happens. Del replies : You say so yourself : Percy *can't* recognise that his source of authority is negative. It's not a choice, it's a natural inability. And just asking him to get over that inability is rather stupid. Percy needs to be *shown* the error of his way, not just told. But nobody has bothered doing that yet. All anyone ever says is that Percy is a stupid git for not seeing the truth, but none of them ever thinks of taking the time to go and talk to Percy in a respectful way, with logical proofs, not just "you must believe so-and-so". No wonder he's still at sea. Del From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 09:53:55 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 09:53:55 -0000 Subject: Sirius again (was Re: Evans, Dumbledore and (again)Sirius) In-Reply-To: <20040708062312.22808.qmail@webmail30.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105028 Amey wrote, about Sirius : > I am not saying his faults are acceptable, but I will say it once > more, his choices were made *for* him, not *by* him. And in WW, its > your choices that define you. Del replies : Sirius chose to have Peter be Secret Keeper rather than himself. Sirius chose to track down Peter on his own rather than tell the story and gather help (and how did he find Peter anyway ?) Sirius chose to obey Harry when Harry asked him not to kill Peter. And so on. I'm not saying all those choices were bad, most definitely not ! But Sirius did make choices, and he had to live through the consequences. (One could even argue that he chose to remain in Azkaban for 12 years. He could have escaped and lived as Padfoot. But if the Dementors made him feel depressed, he probably didn't see the point of it. Not much of a choice.) Amey wrote : > In pensieve scene, he defended James, he didn't attack Snape on his > own. And he won there, is it bad to win? Del replied : Yes, it's bad to win when you're attacking two against one without provocation. You got the scene wrong : James and Sirius attacked Snape together, Sirius wasn't defending James at all. Amey wrote : > There are other people (James) who were worse than him and still are > thought of to be very good people. Why this injustice? Del replies : Because Sirius sent Snape to the Shack, and James risked his own life to get Snape back from the Shack in time. Sirius sent Snape to his death, James saved Snape's life at the potential price of his own life. Del From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 09:57:35 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 09:57:35 -0000 Subject: I am new- does anyone think Dumbledore HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105029 ~eeyore (aka hollylawrence) wrote, about the potential HBPs : > Theodore Nott (we know from JKR's site that his father was an older > wizard who was widowed--but we don't know about his mother) Del replies : Just so you don't lose your time : read on about Theo on JKR's site and you'll see that she says he's a pureblood. Del, who thought of Theo Nott as HBP right away, but had to abandon that idea. From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Thu Jul 8 09:58:23 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 09:58:23 -0000 Subject: Barty Jr was never a marked DE? (was Re: Fear and Valour (Long)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105030 wrote: > >>> Valky wrote: So at this point I am going to take a gigantic > > Bart Jr was never marked! > > Bren now: I agree, he was very young when he was imprisoned in > Azkaban, even before legal drinking age in the States! And this was about a year after Voldemort's downfall, so Barty Jr was atmost 18 when he became a DE. That's like what, right after Hogwarts?!? > > Please correct me if I'm wrong (and I think I am on this one) -- > when a DE is casting a Dark Mark onto sky, don't they point their > wands in their DM scar and say the incantation? I have no canon to > prove this, I might be getting this mixed up with the Protean Charm > Do you guys know how DEs cast DM onto sky? > Valky: I looked it up in canon. Embarrassingly, I had no real clear recollection of it except that I was sure we knew the incantation. The incantation is "MORSMORDRE" which I suppose in my lay ability with language means something along the lines of "deathmark". In following pages Arthur tells Harry that only Death eaters themselves know how to conjure it. All the surronuding canon points significantly at the conclusion that Barty Jr was indeed an official Death Eater, which deflates me awfully, but I didn't give up all that easily, I even went so far as to check the timeline to see if LV had an opportunity to teach crouch Jr the incantation before the QWC, which he didn't. so back to the drawing board with that one I suppose. Darnit! Additionally Bren said: > And where was Barty Jr during the 13 years of non-Voldemort period? So he was sent to Azkaban in age of 19, presumed dead around 20 or 21 > -- what am I missing? Does this mean that Barty Jr was being > imprisoned at home, hiding under Invisibility > Cloak, Imperio-ed, for over 10 years?!?! And all those times Barty > learned to fight it off, and... that's it? I ask again, WHAT AM I > MISSING? Valky: Yeah I think thats it, all of it, missing nothing, 10+ years of Imperio. From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Thu Jul 8 09:28:38 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 05:28:38 -0400 Subject: A HBP Clue? Message-ID: <001f01c464cd$f411b150$21c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 105031 koinonia02 said: " "Ha!" said Ron excitedly. "There's one of them now!" The figure was emerging from a side room. As they hurried nearer, however, their hearts sank. It wasn't a Slytherin, it was Percy. "What're you doing down here?" said Ron in surprise. Percy looked affronted. "That," he said stiffly, "is none of your business. It's Crabbe, ins't it?" cos-ch 12-pg 219-us" Percy wasn't down there snooping or investigating. Just a bit before, Penelope Clearwater had come out of that same area. He was down there with her. We find out later the girl Harry & Ron met as Crabbe and Goyle was Penelope when they see her in the Hospital wing. Later still, we find out Percy and Penelope were meeting all over the school and Ginny ran into them somewhere. Why was it so important for Percy to keep his relationship with Penny hidden? Now, there's a question. Is Penny muggle-born (I think so...TR said that killing muggle-borns isn't what he was interested in any more, it was Harry). Is Percy afraid his family will be upset by it, or just doesn't want to be teased to death by F&G? Cathy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Thu Jul 8 09:28:59 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 05:28:59 -0400 Subject: CoS question was: Re: Dumbledore evil?? Message-ID: <002701c464ce$00515fb0$21c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 105032 Kate said" "Something that I don't understand personally is why 3 second year students could work out where the Chamber of Secrets is in the 2nd book when all the professors together didn't know where it was. Does anyone else find this a little tough to accept? " The only thing I can think of is that these three know Harry was a Parselmouth - and that the ability is very rare. Hermione is the one who figured out that Harry was hearing a snake. I do have problems with the situation as DD would have known about Harry's ability as well, the minute Snape knew. I have several concerns about similar situations but my thoughts are "it's just a book...things happen that way in books." I also have several concerns about DD but I won't get into them here. Cathy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cmjohnstone at hotmail.com Thu Jul 8 10:40:55 2004 From: cmjohnstone at hotmail.com (littleleahstill) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 10:40:55 -0000 Subject: Why spare Lily? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105033 Jocelyn wrote: >What about this quote: >" but your mother needn't have died... she was trying to protect you" >WHAT! WHY would Voldie, terror of the WW, have spared Lily? Do you >think LV was lying? It is just such an odd thing to say. Leah: I don't think he was lying- in fact he can't be because the fact that Lily made a willing sacrifice for her son as opposed to being a Cedric like victim of circumstances appears to be the crux of Harry's protection. I like the Shape-trophy theory that has been proposed, but since Voldemort originally seems to be keeping his side of this possible bargain by telling Lily to step aside, why doesn't he just use Stupefy or some similar spell to render her temporarily inactive? Has Voldemort being forewarned by someone unknown that attacking Lily might be a dangerous thing to do? Or is he in a hurry? The impression I get whenever we get snippets of whatever went down at Godric's Hollow is that Voldemort was rushed- hence the impatient 'stand aside'. Why? Did he have to get to Harry before midnight on 31 October, (possibly the anniversary of Harry's conception) and if so, why? Did he have to get to both Harry and then Neville on the same day? Against that theory is the fact that it took only a second to AK Cedric. My only other thought, for which I apologise in advance, is that some sort of time turning was going on, and that Voldemort had arrived in Godric's Hollow from some future in which Lily still existed, and that the serious messing with time resulting from her death on 31 October had something to do with the vapourising of Voldemort. Leah (preparing to duck) From sophierom at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 10:57:33 2004 From: sophierom at yahoo.com (sophierom) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 10:57:33 -0000 Subject: Defending Percy ( was Percy Weasley ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105034 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > Katie wrote : > > I see JKR setting Percy up as the classic "collaborator" figure- > > someone who will follow the rules and try to please those in > > authority even when it becomes obvious that the rules are wrong. > > Del replies : > But it is NOT obvious that the rules are wrong ! Fudge knew what he > was doing when he refused to follow DD, but Percy and the rest of the > WW don't know that. Percy hasn't met neither Harry nor DD since LV's > return, he wasn't there at the parting of the ways. He's aked to > follow Harry, DD and his parents *blindly*, even when *everything* > points to the fact that they are crack-heads having collective > hallucinations ! What's so wrong in refusing to do that ?? Sophierom: This is a really interesting debate. Del asks a very valid question: what is wrong with following the rules, so long as you think the rules are right? But I don't think Percy is thinking about who's right or wrong. I agree with Katie on this one, and here's why: As far as we know, Percy did not accept or reject the idea that LV returned; what we know is that Percy rejected his father's admittedly rude implications that he had only been promoted in order to serve as a spy of sorts. Here are a few interesting passage from OotP: ******* [Weasly children and Harry discussing Percy's promotion and break from family]: "Yeah, we were all surprised," said George [of the promotion], "because Percy got into a load of trouble about Crouch, there was an inquiry and everything. They said Percy ought to have realized Crouch was off his rokcer and informed a superior. But you know Percy, Crouch left him in charge, he wasn't going to complain ..." [OotP, U.S. edition, 71] ******** George is suggesting that there was actually a some time in between the return of LV and Percy's promotion. If there was time for an inquiry, a time for reprimand, this means that Percy had some amount of time to find out about the return of LV from one of his parents or Ron. They are all living together, and Ron's home for the summer. I find it hard to believe that, with his parents and siblings running around trying to gather the Order, he, an intelligent guy, hasn't picked up on the fact that something's changed, that something big is going down. And, though there's no canon, I bet his dad told him of LV's return, in only to keep Percy aware and to help explain why Harry ended up in the hospital at the end of GoF. Yet, Percy didn't move out until he and his dad argued about his promotion: ********* Fred or George (not sure which): "Dad recoks Fudge only wants Percy in his office because he wants to use him to spy on the family - and Dumbledore." .... Ron: "He said Dad was an idiot to run around with Dumbledore, that Dumbledore was heading for big trouble and Dad was going to go down with him, and that he - PErcy - knew where his loyalty lay and it was with the ministry. If Mum and Dad were going to become traitors to the Ministry he was going to make sure everyone knew he didn't belong to our family anymore." [OotP, US, 72] ********** What these quotes suggest to me is that Percy did not break with his parents because he said to himself: "Why should we follow Dumbledore? Is Dumbledore really right?" He broke with his parents because of pride, hurt, resentment, anger. And, perhaps worst of all, he broke with his parents because he believed greater power lay with the Ministry than with the Order. I argued in an earlier post that PErcy is other- directed, that he seeks to please the people around him, particularly people with more power. Now that PErcy is an adult, his parents are no longer the authority figures they once were; instead, the Ministry is the authority figure in his life, and, he's just been reprimanded by this authority figure for not following the chain of command. So, when his Dad confronts him, basically forcing him to choose between his family and Fudge, Percy chooses Fudge because he believes Fudge has more authority over him. Percy is not acting courageously, he's not acting because he believes Fudge over his parents. He's acting this way because Fudge holds more power over him, and he wants to please that authority figure in his life. We've seen this shift in loyalties before OotP; throughout GoF, Percy's behavior has suggested that he's found a new "father" figure in Crouch. Unfortunately, he doesn't learn the lesson he should from the Crouch incident. He doesn't learn that the Ministry is not his family. INstead, the punishment, followed by a swift promotion (which must have felt doubly good after a reprimand and inquiry), convince Percy that he must work even harder to please his new authority figures. Sophierom From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 8 11:41:42 2004 From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:41:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's first Kiss In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040708114142.32794.qmail@web25302.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105035 garybec wrote: > When asked Harry described kissing Cho as 'wet' (he was both serious and disappointed). I would not be inclined to even count this as a first real kiss. Yes he had a crush on Cho but it seemed to go rapidly down hill from this point. > > TTFN Udder Pen Dragon A quick thought from Becki' I hate to admit that the Cho under the mistletoe scene is one of my favorites. I have read the book several times and I also have it on CD, however, I had to hear it quite a few times before I realized that Harry and Cho were under that mistletoe for a half and hour, (the book states that Harry returned to the common room 30 minutes later). I think that counts as a first kiss and then some. Becki, who was sorry that Cho turned out to be such a poop. Harry deserves better. Now Udderpd again >From Harry's reaction in the common room I don't think that it was not "a first kiss and then some" as Becki so aptly put it. My thought is that their was probably twenty five minutes of Cho crying and talking about Cedric. Not really what Harry needed at that time. It does not appear that Harry was embarking on some romantic interlude. Hence Hermione not being worried about Cho being competion, when he returned to the common room. However I also believe that at this time Harry wouldn't recognise romance if it bit him on the nose. TTFN Udder PenDragon text portions of this message have been removed] ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 8 12:14:22 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 12:14:22 -0000 Subject: The Hogwarts Express (was Re: refreshment witch) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105036 "Miller, Gina (JIS)" wrote: [snip] > Notice we have never seen the driver? Lupin said he must go > have a word with the driver but we never know why or what was said or > who he is. Does anyone other than me find this funny? Not as strange as the idea that you could simply have a word with the driver of a *steam* *locomotive*! I've tried to look on the Web but haven't managed to find any good-enough pictures of the Hogwarts Express, but I'm certain I recall there being a tender. (That's the "coal bunker" pulled behind the locomotive in case the word is different outside the UK.) This would in a normal train make it totally impossible for anyone on the train to visit the driver (stupid Bond-esque stunts aside :-). But Lupin does, and so IIRC does Hermione. HTH HAND -- Phil From entropymail at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 12:29:49 2004 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 12:29:49 -0000 Subject: Eastern European HBP? In-Reply-To: <20040708061945.26984.qmail@web25106.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105037 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Hans Andr?a wrote: > > Entropy wrote: [4] Prague was *the* alchemical hot spot of the 16th century (it was once known as "Magic Prague"), and alchemy has been shown to play a huge role in both the HP story and story structure. (Because of this, I'd guess that Durmstrang's secret location *is* Prague.) So it seems a pretty good guess to me that JKR intends to make this area of the world a significant one to the Wizarding World of Books 6 & 7. > Hans: Actually this is the most interesting one I've heard so far! Yes indeed Prague was the alchemical hotbed of the 16th century! This gives me goosebumps As a matter of fact in 1564 John Dee published a book which was dedicated to the Holy Roman Emperor, Maximilian, King of Bohemia (as the country was called then). This book, "Monas Hieroglyphica", features on its title page a symbol which is also on the letter of invitation to the Alchemical Wedding of Christian Rosycross. This is a symbol of Mercury (Hermes - Hermione) and consists of a crescent (Luna), sitting on top of a circle, above a cross. This symbol can also be interpreted as soul, spirit and body completely united, the result of the Alchemical Wedding, which I maintain is the purpose of the Harry Potter septenary. Near Prague is the castle Karlstejn. From the air it looks very much like JKR's description of Hogwarts. Entropy: Great post! I hated to snip any of it! Alchemy plays such an important role in the HP books (it can't be an accident that Albus, Rubeus, and Black relate to the alchemical stages white, red, and black) and Prague plays such an interesting role in the history of alchemy that I'm sure JKR is leading us to Prague in some way or another! I've believed for a while that Durmstrang is located in Prague. (Why do the Durmstrang students arrive by ship? Check out the huge waterway, the Prague River, which runs through it's center), and now I've got a sneaking suspicion that Lupin may have ties to the city as well. We've heard so little of Lupin's family and history before Hogwarts, that I think it's highly possible that they may have come from Prague originally. Eastern Europe's, and particularly Prague's, ties to werewolves is well-established. How was Lupin bitten, anyway? Could a young, pampered, half-blooded Prince Remus been frolicking through a section of the Bohemian Forest unattended? I sure hope so! ; ) :: Entropy :: From J.Z.Dench at uel.ac.uk Thu Jul 8 09:35:02 2004 From: J.Z.Dench at uel.ac.uk (Jospehine) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 09:35:02 -0000 Subject: Language in OOTP less Americanized? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105038 Marny wrote: The language in this book (and I have the Scholastic edition that was available the first night, yes I went to the bookstore at midnight) seems less "Americanized" that in the others. Just in what I have re-read today I have noticed "hosepipe," Ron calling Harry "mate," and a reference to Harry's "fringe" (bangs). I wonder if they were in such a hurry to get the book out that they didn't take the time to change everything? Cressida wrote: I wonder if this is now because JK Rowling herself now has more power over what her publishers do - when the first books were published she was a complete unknown whereas now of course she is one of the best known writers ever. I have seen her comment in interviews that she resented changes made to the earlier books in order to give them 'US appeal'. Perhaps now she is in a position to resist this whereas when the earlier books were published she did not. We know that she kept quite a close rein on what Warner Brothers did to the films in terms of resisting big name US stars in favour of British actors. Cressida Jospehine now: I agree, I am sure that JKR is more and more adament about what can and cannot be changed for the American audience. I can completely understand why JKR would not want to change the books for the American audience, and might be phasing out the 'translations'. UK English isn't exactly beyond American intelligence! But also, perhaps the books *seem* less 'Americanised' because more and more of the people we are introduced to really depend on their *speech* to establish character. Tonks, Mundungus, and Stan Shunpike all need to be written with very British mannerisms and inflection to come across as they do. (I can't imagine what good it would do to have Tonks going 'Hi Y'all' instead of 'Wotcha!')So perhaps general words are still being changed now and again, but the books seem more British beause of the new characters. Jo From iain.bartholomew at ntlworld.com Thu Jul 8 10:25:26 2004 From: iain.bartholomew at ntlworld.com (Iain Bartholomew) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:25:26 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CoS question was: Re: Dumbledore evil?? In-Reply-To: <002701c464ce$00515fb0$21c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: <000701c464d5$e67c1640$0100a8c0@IAIN2> No: HPFGUIDX 105039 Cathy: The only thing I can think of is that these three know Harry was a Parselmouth - and that the ability is very rare. Hermione is the one who figured out that Harry was hearing a snake. I do have problems with the situation as DD would have known about Harry's ability as well, the minute Snape knew. I have several concerns about similar situations but my thoughts are "it's just a book...things happen that way in books." I also have several concerns about DD but I won't get into them here. Me (Iain): The only things that H, H & R did that I suspect the teachers didn?t were to speak to Aragog and to speak to Myrtle. The former led to the latter, and though I?d imagine the staff, or at least Dumbledore, knew Myrtle was the one killed by the Basilisk, perhaps they never thought to speak to her? Or perhaps, not being Parselmouths, they knew they needed Harry to open the Chamber and had to reluctantly accept that when it came to it, without forcing it on him? Iain From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 11:13:24 2004 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 11:13:24 -0000 Subject: Defending Percy ( was Percy Weasley ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105040 Del: > But it is NOT obvious that the rules are wrong ! Fudge knew what he > was doing when he refused to follow DD, but Percy and the rest of the > WW don't know that. Percy hasn't met neither Harry nor DD since LV's > return, he wasn't there at the parting of the ways. He's aked to > follow Harry, DD and his parents *blindly*, even when *everything* > points to the fact that they are crack-heads having collective > hallucinations ! What's so wrong in refusing to do that ?? Katie: As far as we see in the books, there's very little Fudge knows about that Percy doesn't. Percy acts as Fudge's spokesperson and ever- present assistant (even at trials) and I see no reason to assume that Percy knows much less than Fudge. "Blindly"? I would hardly say that. Percy has known, loved, and respected his family (and Harry) for considerably longer than any of the people he's currently following. Why does everything point to them all having collective hallucinations? The Daily Prophet and Ministry figures insinuate this, but I see little reason or proof that Percy should doubt his own family and all others he formerly respected. Del: > Could you define what you mean by morality ? Katie: The difference between right and wrong. I think Percy tends to believe in the importance and infallibility of the Rules, and stick to them even when they are obviously wrong (as in the Ministry's indifference to dementors attacking a student, for example.) I think that Percy sees the "right" action as being that which accords with the Rules and Authority. I don't see him as having an independent sense of good and bad. Del: > Yes he does. He "realized" that DD, whom he respected very much just a > few years before, has lost his marbles. And also that Harry, whom he > quite liked, has turned into a dangerously delusive liar. Percy > understood the concept very well, he just made a mistake in applying > it. And considering the little info he had, it was a very easy mistake > to make IMO. Katie: And what proof has Percy that Dumbledore has lost his marbles? Not much, I think (not at least until the "Dumbledore's Army" scene toward the end of OOTP, anyway.) When did Percy determine that Harry was as crazy as the Daily Prophet claimed? I'll say it again: Percy has known and respected DD and Harry for some time. Yet you're saying "considering the little info he had, it was a very easy mistake to make." Why should he immediately distrust his family and friends when he has admittedly "little information" to condemn them? Because he respects authority above all else. This is why I think he'd just as easily sever his ties to Fudge as he did to Dumbledore. Percy pays attention to which way the wind is blowing. Del: > I don't understand : why *should* he ? It was indeed Fudge who was > wrong, not the Ministry policies. Once the Minister changes, the > Ministry will realign itself, and Percy will do good to follow. Katie: Because the Ministry's policies WERE wrong and unfair under Fudge, and Percy believed them all the same. Percy knows Dolores Umbridge and her methods, and claims to have complete confidence in her. I'd love to hear someone try to defend Umbridge's fascistic policies at Hogwarts. Rather than follow whoever happens to be in power, what Percy ought to do is determine what right and wrong is, and follow that (and consequently leaders who follow it as well.) Del: > I don't see what moral implications you mean. Could you extrapolate ? > And I don't see anything wrong with a big brother telling his little > brother that his current best friend can lead him into big troubles. > In fact, I find that admirable. Isn't it what we all want to do when > we see an "innocent" kid fraying with "bad boys" ? Percy is thinking > about Ron's future, and he's telling him to be strong and to take > whatever measure might be necessary to protect himself from Harry and > DD's crazy actions. I wouldn't call that "don't rock the boat", quite > the opposite in fact. Katie: Well, let's look at what Percy says: "...I feel bound to tell you that Dumbledore may not be in charge at Hogwarts much longer and the people who count have a very different-- and probably more accurate-- view of Potter's behavior... Seriously, Ron, you do not want to be tarred with the same brush as Potter, it could be very damaging to your future prospects, and I am talking here about life after school too." I don't think Percy is primarily concerned with Harry as a "danger" to his brother, because he gives no real evidence to support this. Instead, he says that the "people who count" don't believe Harry, so Ron ought to as well, to ensure future success. Percy isn't encouraging Ron to protect himself, he's encouraging him to get in with the right people. Del: > You say so yourself : Percy *can't* recognise that his source of > authority is negative. It's not a choice, it's a natural inability. > And just asking him to get over that inability is rather stupid. Percy > needs to be *shown* the error of his way, not just told. But nobody > has bothered doing that yet. All anyone ever says is that Percy is a > stupid git for not seeing the truth, but none of them ever thinks of > taking the time to go and talk to Percy in a respectful way, with > logical proofs, not just "you must believe so-and-so". No wonder he's > still at sea. Katie: Yes, this inability seems to be something in his natural makeup. I'm not saying this makes him categorically *bad*, I'm saying that reliance on the rules without regard for their content is extremely dangerous. I doubt that no one has considered talking to Percy in a respectful way. Molly adores her son and has tried to contact him, but Percy won't even talk to her. He doesn't even visit his badly wounded father in hospital. Yes, Fred and George are quick to dismiss Percy, as usual, but all others seem to be making every effort to talk to him and not succeeding. -Katie From estrilda_wolfegg at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 11:27:44 2004 From: estrilda_wolfegg at yahoo.com (estrilda_wolfegg) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 11:27:44 -0000 Subject: Must the prince be human? a werewolf? In-Reply-To: <00a401c46498$73ef84a0$1c5aaacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105041 "Amanda Geist"wrote: > Does the half-blood prince have to be a human? I am so glad I finally wandered over to this website. I am amazed at the number and sometimes overwhelming verbosity of the posts. I scanned through several pages and wanted to weigh in with my two (or three) knuts. My first choice for HBP is *Lupin* because of JKR's comment in March that he is halfblood and because the Mauraders seem to gain signifance in each book. My second choice is *any DA boy* that we can't rule out [Michael Corner, Richard Davies, etc.] but not those that we could specifically choose. I think it would be very like JKR to use a youthful character to keep the young audience interested, but not one that readers could pick with available info. My third choice was *Mark Evans* because of the odd coincidence of the name in Petuna's neighborhood, but when JKR offered on her website to explain his "significance," I've decided he's too obvious. Estrilda From captain_suburbia at yahoo.com.au Thu Jul 8 11:53:05 2004 From: captain_suburbia at yahoo.com.au (captain_suburbia) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 11:53:05 -0000 Subject: Homosexuality in HP (was Re: Ringdear of the Marauders: Sirius or James?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105042 Stefanie: > I'm the first to don the "'SNAPE'S WORST MEMORY' WAS A 20 MINUTE > SNAPSHOT INTO THE LIVES OF THESE BOYS AND HARDLY A DOCUMENTARY OF > THEIR ENTIRE LIVES" sandwich sign, Burbs now: Yup, I'm with you on that count, Stefanie! I find it amazing that all of this conjecture about Sirius's romantic past (or lack thereof) is being hotly discussed with no evidence whatsoever. Who *says* he didn't have girlfriends? (OK, *or boyfriends*) The fact he doesn't notice some girl sitting behind him, eyeing him off on one single occaision doesn't really mean that he doesn't *ever* notice girls, does it? As you say, these moments are simply that - moments. We don't really know that much about *any* of the Maurauders. (Mrs) Lee Storm: >>Personally, I didn't read any homosexual innuendo or anything in OOTP. I saw people who cared for each other as really good friends do. Why is it that if the word "affectionate" is used with men, the possibility of homosexuality is brought forth? Affection can be bestowed upon anyone a person happens to love as a friend, as a family member, etc. Burbs again: No, I didn't either, Lee. To me, "affectionately" could be replaced with "fondly", rather than "lustfully" or "longingly"! IMHO there's waaaaaaaay too much being read into this one; bit of a knee-jerk on the part of folks who are a bit timid with the old boy/boy, girl/girl thing, methinks. Burbs, who would *love* to know all these details, but, sadly has to make do with her lumpen imagination. From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Thu Jul 8 12:26:56 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 12:26:56 -0000 Subject: Why spare Lily? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105043 Leah said Why? Did he have to get to > Harry before midnight on 31 October, (possibly the anniversary of > Harry's conception) and if so, why? Did he have to get to both Harry > and then Neville on the same day? Aggie says Personally I think that this is a very intersting observation. If it was the anniversary of H's conception would that have contributed to the protection spell? Is it just coincidence that it's Halloween? I don't know if it would have any bearing on the outcome of the story but I just wanted to say, "Well observed!!" From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Thu Jul 8 12:15:24 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 12:15:24 -0000 Subject: Many questions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105044 As we aren't supposed to answer with one-lines, this is a compilation of various answers to many, many questions. I have tried to name the original questionee correctly, I do apologise if this is not the case. James Lawlor wondered how Sirius bought Harry the Firebolt. This is easily explained in canon and I'm suprised that no-one else has mentioned it! In Sirus's letter to H at the end of PoA, he writes, "...It was I who sent you the Firebolt - " "Ha!" said Hermione. . . "Crookshanks took the order to the Owl Office for me...". So those who said that it was done via mail order were correct, I was just 'canonising(?)' it. Kneasy said that he was not one for fluffy endings and didn't want LV to become 'good'. I think from JKR's response to the chat room she visited (her web site,news,15/03/04) "...The practise of calling Lord Voldemort 'Voldie' must stop, as must the insistance that with a bit of therapy 'Voldie' would be a real sweetheart..." we MAY be able to say that this will not be the case. He's bad to the bone and will stay that way! (Although you never can tell...!) Gina noted that we do not know who the driver of Hogwart's Express is. . . I say that the WW is not real and JKR cannot name every wizard that appears in the books. I don't think that it is an important piece of info. I just love the way that she can get us all to imagine that the tiniest scrap of information is relevant!!! It's paranoia at its most fun!!! Adan wonders what Snape's deal is with Neville. I wonder if snape knew N's parents and believes that N could do better. I feel that he is trying to push N for his own good ( but I believe he's not doing a very good job of it!) Kate finds the idea that a bunch of 2nd years could find the CoS but not the teachers. I agree with those that say it's because H is a parselmouth but I also feel that the teachers didn't really believe that the chamber exsisted so didn't have the motivation to find it. HRH had the motivation AND the time. I'm sure it was not a prioity to those teachers who tried before. On the subject of the CoS someone mentioned (V v v sorry but I can't find it now to acknowledge them) that the tunnel on the MM may be linked to the chamber. I agree. In PoA when F/G give H the map they say that it was usable until the previous winter which puts it in the yr of CoS. I think they didn't come across the basilisk because the chamber is multifacited. . .it is the chamber of secretS. To access the chamber that contained the basilisk you needed to speak parseltongue, but there may be other chambers that don't have that requirement. I believe that one of these chambers is linked to HBP, I'd go along with the idea that it's GG but feel it could be Seamus too. P.s a big THANK YOU to potioncat for the welcome. Aggie From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Thu Jul 8 12:40:17 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 12:40:17 -0000 Subject: Sirius's mirror Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105045 I apologise if this has been mentioned before but I couldn't find it. We were all screaming at the book (I'm sure) about the mirror that possibly could have saved Sirius but I just wondered people's opinions on what JKR says on the FAQ section of her web site. "...The mirror might not have helped as much as you think, but on the other hand, WILL help more than you think..." (Emphasis on will is mine) OOOoo er Missus (Frankie Howard ref! UKers will understand!) this may mean that those posters that say that the mirror will be the link between Sirus and Harry are correct! (Apologies for the bad english!!) Any ideas as to what else she could be referring to? Plus on her 'extra stuff' page she (JKR) catagorically says that ". . .Pettigrew became the traitor. . ." So hopefully this will put an end to ESE!Lupin and ESE!Sirius - though I doubt it!! ;o)) Aggie From pcaehill2 at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 8 12:45:58 2004 From: pcaehill2 at sbcglobal.net (pcaehill2) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 12:45:58 -0000 Subject: Homosexuality in HP (was Re: Ringdear of the Marauders: Sirius or James?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105046 Alla wrote: > It is entirely possible that this was friendly affection (most likely even). It is just I want them to be more than friends, that is all. :) > Even though as I said Remus/Sirius is not my favourite ship, any gay ship will be fine, if JKR decideds to show them in the book. Pam: I see the whole animagus gang as having been close friends, with some closer than others and definitely agree with the whole hero- worship thing between Sirius-James & Peter-James. But no one in this whole thread has mentioned Prof. Grubbly-Plank, who is (imo) a fine candidate for a lesbian character--not just because she reminds me of Jane Hathaway, but also due to the hyphenated name, which friends of mine who are in long-term gay relationships often do. However, I also concede that there are many straight couples with hyphenated names, as well as Brit names of families who wed but want both families represented, and the hyphenation continues down generations. Pam From SnapesRaven at web.de Thu Jul 8 13:42:08 2004 From: SnapesRaven at web.de (SnapesRaven) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 15:42:08 +0200 Subject: HalfBloodPrince Suggestion Message-ID: <000c01c464f1$5d77e150$0202a8c0@henrike> No: HPFGUIDX 105047 Hello, here I am with another suggestion regarding the HBP. What about Colin Creevey? He appeared first in CoS, has been attacked by the Basilisk because of his Muggle heritage (though I don't know whether he's muggleborn or halfblood...)... and with his golden locks looks a bit like a 'Prince Charming' (NOT mixing up with any Dreamworks movie here! *grins*). He's not my image of a hero or anything, but who knows how/what the HBP turns out to be? What his role might be? So, not sure about the probability but suggesting: CC=HBP? SnapesRaven [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 13:20:59 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 13:20:59 -0000 Subject: Defending Percy ( was Percy Weasley ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105048 sophierom wrote: > George is suggesting that there was actually a some time in > between the return of LV and Percy's promotion. If there was time > for an inquiry, a time for reprimand, this means that Percy had some > amount of time to find out about the return of LV from one of his > parents or Ron. Del replies : I agree, but we're not told how Percy received the news of LV's return and Fudge's coward attitude. He was under a lot of stress at the time, and it's possible that he simply didn't want to hear about it. What makes me think that is that I believe that Percy would have been the first one to recognise Fudge's move for what it was, if he had been in the right disposition. The fact that he took Fudge's proposal at face value indicates to me that Percy had not internalised what he had been told about Harry, LV and DD. He did not believe it. Sophierom wrote : > ********* > Fred or George (not sure which): "Dad recoks Fudge only wants Percy > in his office because he wants to use him to spy on the family - and > Dumbledore." .... > > Ron: "He said Dad was an idiot to run around with Dumbledore, that > Dumbledore was heading for big trouble and Dad was going to go down > with him, and that he - PErcy - knew where his loyalty lay and it > was with the ministry. If Mum and Dad were going to become traitors > to the Ministry he was going to make sure everyone knew he didn't > belong to our family anymore." [OotP, US, 72] > > ********** > > What these quotes suggest to me is that Percy did not break with his > parents because he said to himself: "Why should we follow > Dumbledore? Is Dumbledore really right?" > He broke with his parents because of pride, hurt, resentment, anger. Del replies : Yes, but he wouldn't have been hurt in the first place if he'd believed DD was right and Fudge was wrong. He would have been pleased in fact, pleased to be able to play such an insider job. But because he still hadn't made his mind whether he believed his parents, he still believed in Fudge. Sophierom wrote : > And, perhaps worst of all, he broke with his parents because he > believed greater power lay with the Ministry than with the Order. I > argued in an earlier post that PErcy is other-directed, that he seeks > to please the people around him, particularly people with more power. Del replies : I like that explanation. It makes sense. Sophierom wrote : > Unfortunately, he doesn't learn the lesson he should from the Crouch > incident. He doesn't learn that the Ministry is not his family. Del replies : That's where I disagree with you. The Ministry *is* his family, his chosen professional family. And there's theoretically nothing wrong with that : dedicating one's life to one's government is usually regarded as a noble thing. Percy's parents were actually quite pleased when he chose that way. Moreover, adults are expected to fly away from their parents and build their own life. We keep expecting that the kids of the DEs will see the error of their parents' way and choose to work alongside Harry. Similarly, there's nothing wrong with Percy seeing the error of his parents' way and choosing to work alongside Fudge. If his mistake was honest, then I respect his attitude. Del From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Jul 8 13:29:07 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 13:29:07 -0000 Subject: CoS question was: Re: Dumbledore evil?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105049 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kate" wrote: >> Something that I don't understand personally is why 3 second year students could work out where the Chamber of Secrets is in the 2nd book when all the professors together didn't know where it was. Does anyone else find this a little tough to accept?<< The Chamber is most likely one of those magical objects with a mind of its own. I'm not sure anyone could find it unless it wanted to be found. The snake marking on the tap could be like the Dark Mark or the writing on the Marauders Map--only visible under certain circumstances. Riddle *wanted* Harry to enter the Chamber--if he hadn't, perhaps Harry would have searched in vain, parselmouth or not. Pippin From pcaehill2 at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 8 13:07:44 2004 From: pcaehill2 at sbcglobal.net (pcaehill2) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 13:07:44 -0000 Subject: Think on This...... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105050 Smart wrote: [snip] > 3. Monsters- Not just any ol' monsters, but those that have a > name. [snip] Pam: This reminds me of LV in GoF, saying to the DE's: "The dementors will join us...they are our natural allies...we will recall the banished giants...I shall have all my devoted servants returned to me, and an army of creatures whom all fear..." GoF p. 651, U.S. ed. I initially thought that "an army of creatures whom all fear" referred to the dementors & giants, but it could be a continuation of the list, and refer to as yet unknown, unnamed monsters? Can't wait to find out! Pam From pcaehill2 at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 8 13:15:15 2004 From: pcaehill2 at sbcglobal.net (pcaehill2) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 13:15:15 -0000 Subject: CoS question was: Re: Dumbledore evil?? In-Reply-To: <002701c464ce$00515fb0$21c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105051 > Kate wrote: > > "Something that I don't > understand personally is why 3 second year students could work out > where the Chamber of Secrets is in the 2nd book when all the > professors together didn't know where it was. Does anyone else find this a little tough to accept? Pam: Well, maybe it couldn't be found unless the Heir invited someone in? And, of course, the Heir never did, until Ginny's & Harry's time. From pcaehill2 at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 8 13:23:17 2004 From: pcaehill2 at sbcglobal.net (pcaehill2) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 13:23:17 -0000 Subject: Defending Percy ( was Percy Weasley ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105052 Pam: On a positive note, one time I actually really *liked* Percy was in GoF after the 2nd task, when he "looked very white and somehow much younger than usual" and "came splashing out to meet [Harry & Ron]." This was an episode in which Percy's love for his family (Ron) outweighed his concern about his own public appearance (how silly he might look splashing around in his robes). Pam From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Jul 8 13:51:20 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 13:51:20 -0000 Subject: Eastern European HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105053 Entropy: > Alchemy plays such an important role in the HP books (it can't be an > accident that Albus, Rubeus, and Black relate to the alchemical stages > white, red, and black) and Prague plays such an interesting role in > the history of alchemy that I'm sure JKR is leading us to Prague in > some way or another! Jen: People have said this before (waves to Hans!), but I'm becoming more convinced of it myself: JKR's story, the one she tells us she's writing for herself, is the alchemical process come to life, acted out so to speak. I'd be very interested to have Prague explored, although my first choice is an explanation of the Egyptian clues she scatters around. They are much fewer than the Eastern European clues & characters though, so you'll probably get your wish Entropy! Entropy: > I've got a sneaking suspicion that Lupin may have ties to the city as > well. > > We've heard so little of Lupin's family and history before Hogwarts, > that I think it's highly possible that they may have come from Prague > originally. Eastern Europe's, and particularly Prague's, ties to > werewolves is well-established. How was Lupin bitten, anyway? Could a > young, pampered, half-blooded Prince Remus been frolicking through a > section of the Bohemian Forest unattended? I sure hope so! ; ) Jen: There's canon for him at least living in another country, if not being born in one. He carried that tattered bag with the peeling Professor R.J. Lupin label which he didn't buy new for Hogwarts. Also, where was he after Hogwarts, when the others thought he was the spy? I like to think he got a job as a Prof. in some remote Wizarding school, or even Durmstrang, where fewer questions were asked, etc. If he was at Durmstrang, because that was the only place he could find a job, James/Sirius might think twice about it since they are so opposed to the Dark Arts. They both had the luxury of not having to work hard, and wouldn't understand Lupin's choice to work *anywhere* with Dark arts. OK, now I'm on a roll ;). Say Dumbledore even helped Lupin get this job, encouraging Lupin to learn as much as he could because Voldemort would return. Lupin uses this time for research about the Dark arts and how to defend them, in hopes one day he could return to Hogwarts as a Prof. and train the next generation of witches/wizards for the return of Voldemort. IF any of this is the case (Hehe), we'll see much more of Lupin and his skills in combatting the Dark Arts. Jen Reese From sherriola at earthlink.net Thu Jul 8 13:59:27 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 07:59:27 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Defending Percy ( was Percy Weasley ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001401c464f3$cb7c5490$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 105054 Pam: On a positive note, one time I actually really *liked* Percy was in GoF after the 2nd task, when he "looked very white and somehow much younger than usual" and "came splashing out to meet [Harry & Ron]." This was an episode in which Percy's love for his family (Ron) outweighed his concern about his own public appearance (how silly he might look splashing around in his robes). Pam Sherry now And in CoS, he was shaken and white and drawn--can't remember the exact words--over Ginny being taken to the chamber. I am still believing that there is hope for Percy. I'm not ready to give up on him. i've seen flashes of great love and loyalty to his family in him, and I'm expecting something to happen to bring him back. One of my favorite scenes with Percy--I almost wrote memories!--is of he and Ginny coming through the barrier to platform 9 and three quarters at a run. I like the image of Percy running with his little sister, probably laughing with her over the fun of it. I think he was wrong and misguided in OOTP, but I think he'll turn out ok in the end. Sherry g From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Thu Jul 8 14:01:46 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:01:46 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hogsmeade: Sixth Year? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105055 Now that Sirius is dead, will the permission slip he signed for Harry to go to Hogsmeade still stand? Pandrea Gina: At 17 wouldn't he be considered of age? You can apparate at 17 right? If that is the case I would say that he would no longer need a permission slip to go into Hogsmeade. gina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Thu Jul 8 14:04:08 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:04:08 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What next for Luna? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105056 I think she's a great character, a brilliant addition to the series, but I have no idea what will happen to her. Pandrea Gina: Well we know that she is in Ravenclaw so she must be really smart - maybe even up to par with Hermione but lacking the common sense or rationality. I think she may be a very good and talented witch. She was uninjured when they finally caught up with Harry in the DoM. * Gina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jjpandy at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 14:11:02 2004 From: jjpandy at yahoo.com (jjpandy) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 14:11:02 -0000 Subject: What next for Luna? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105057 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miller, Gina (JIS)" wrote: > I think she's a great character, a brilliant addition to the series, > but I have no idea what will happen to her. > > Pandrea > > Gina: Well we know that she is in Ravenclaw so she must be really smart - > maybe even up to par with Hermione but lacking the common sense or > rationality. I think she may be a very good and talented witch. She was > uninjured when they finally caught up with Harry in the DoM. > * Gina > Didn't I read somewhere that JKR gave hints about someone finding their magic skills late in life AND also someone switching houses?? Could Luna be switching to Gryffindor for choosing to be brave and fighting the good fight with her new friends? -JJPANDY From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Thu Jul 8 14:15:26 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:15:26 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What next for Luna? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105058 Didn't I read somewhere that JKR gave hints about someone finding their magic skills late in life AND also someone switching houses?? Could Luna be switching to Gryffindor for choosing to be brave and fighting the good fight with her new friends? -JJPANDY Gina: I never go to chats and rarely read interviews so I have no clue, but if someone DOES switch houses I would say it would be a slytherin coming to Gryffindor. It sure would make for a good plot and show the houses coming together. It could be Theo that everyone is talking about or someone else that is going to go bad, but I hope not. I still think the person finding magic late will be Dudley, but we will have to wait and see. Gina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From baseball_07_05 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 14:18:27 2004 From: baseball_07_05 at yahoo.com (Andrew) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 14:18:27 -0000 Subject: CoS question was: Re: Dumbledore evil?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105059 > The Chamber is most likely one of those magical objects with a > mind of its own. I'm not sure anyone could find it unless it > wanted to be found. The snake marking on the tap could be like > the Dark Mark or the writing on the Marauders Map--only visible > under certain circumstances. Riddle *wanted* Harry to enter the > Chamber--if he hadn't, perhaps Harry would have searched in > vain, parselmouth or not. > > Pippin Well then how would Tom Riddle have found it? It would've needed to be 'wanted to be found' otherwise Tom wouldn't be able to find it. Unless it could say, I want to be found but not by teachers. If you look at it this way the teachers would have been able to find it, but once again there is the parcelmouth thing. It in itself seems as good as any at stopping people from entering the chamber. Andrew From meriaugust at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 14:24:01 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 14:24:01 -0000 Subject: Toad Surveillance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105060 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, imamommy at s... wrote: > imamommy: > > I was thinking about Trevor the toad, and I sort of had a Hermione > moment where I had to get up and check the books, and I would like to > pose a theory that Trevor is at least one way in which DD is keeping > his eye on Harry. Trevor is mentioned (in conjunction with Neville) a > half dozen or so times in the first part of SS. Then at the end, when > the trio meet Neville in the common room, Trevor bolts. Then DD comes > back from London in the nick of time. The toad is perfectly placed to > keep an eye on Harry, and while his prescence is used to remind us of > Neville's ineptitude, I think this may be a red herring. > > I realize that Neville brought his toad with him--it was a gift from > Great Uncle Algie. But what if DD was somehow able to plant this > amphibian knowing Neville would be in the same house as Harry? > > (Great Uncle Algie was responsible for the Mimbulus Mimbletonia as > well, wasn't he? I definitely think *that* has more significance.) > > DD has said more than once that he keeps better tabs on HP than he > realizes, and I keep wondering how, so maybe this fills a hole for me. > > I also like the idea of Trevor being the HBP, although I'm not > completely convinced, but I think it's a fun idea. > > Nobody's pets are included in these books for nothing. I don't think > we know what any of the students (or teachers, for that matter) have > besides HP, Hermione, Ron, and DD, and all of these are important to > the plot. I would like to think Trevor has more significance than > just revealing Neville's character. > > Plausible theory, or do I need a course of Shock Spells at St. Mungo's? > > imamommy I think that's a good theory, though I wonder if it is just Harry that Trev is watching. After all, Neville, too could be a part of the prophecy, so maybe, just maybe, Neville is far better protected than we can imagine as well. Like having an heir and a spare. Meri From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 8 14:26:27 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 14:26:27 -0000 Subject: Wands? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105061 Sad1199 wrote: > Some questions... Is Hermione's wand only stronger when Harry uses > it? It seems to be normal when she uses it. Maybe whatever is in > Hermione's wand (I am thinking not a Phoenix feather-Fawlke's mate > or not) is something that enhances Harry's powers. What was in > Lily's wand? How many wands have the same core? As SSSusan: Hmmmm. Is there a place in canon where Harry uses Hermione's wand? I thought this got brought up simply as a *possibility* of something which might've been one of JKR's "I got goosebumps from Cuaron's foreshadowing" episodes from the PoA movie. (That is, instead of three people shouting "Expelliarmus!" at once, causing Snape to be thrown & knocked unconscious, in the MOVIE it was Harry alone who did this, using Hermione's wand.) To my recollection, nowhere in canon does Harry does ever use Hermione's wand in such a way that it's shown to be "stronger." Can anybody else confirm or deny this? Siriusly Snapey Susan From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 14:32:03 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 14:32:03 -0000 Subject: Defending Percy ( was Percy Weasley ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105062 Katie wrote : > As far as we see in the books, there's very little Fudge knows about > that Percy doesn't. Percy acts as Fudge's spokesperson and ever- > present assistant (even at trials) and I see no reason to assume > that Percy knows much less than Fudge. Del replies : Percy is only junior assistant, I seriously doubt Fudge discusses things with him. But even if he does, there's a major difference between Fudge and Percy : their age and experience. Percy is young and quite gullible, he's soft clay between the expert hands of an old politician like Fudge. Katie wrote : > "Blindly"? I would hardly say that. Percy has known, loved, and > respected his family (and Harry) for considerably longer than any of > the people he's currently following. Why does everything point to > them all having collective hallucinations? The Daily Prophet and > Ministry figures insinuate this, but I see little reason or proof > that Percy should doubt his own family and all others he formerly > respected. Del replies : Where are the proofs that LV is indeed back ? DD is going around saying Harry saw him, but giving no proof whatsoever. There are no sign of dark activity, everything is just as usual. The only one creating trouble is DD himself. And yet his parents ask Percy to believe DD. I ask again : why should he ? Yes Percy respected DD, but he also respects Fudge. When asked to make a choice, he goes with the one that looks sane and logical and who's not trying to create a general panic with no proof to back his allegations. I see nothing wrong with that. I, Del, asked : > > Could you define what you mean by morality ? Katie replied : > The difference between right and wrong. I think Percy tends to > believe in the importance and infallibility of the Rules, and stick > to them even when they are obviously wrong (as in the Ministry's > indifference to dementors attacking a student, for example.) I think > that Percy sees the "right" action as being that which accords with > the Rules and Authority. I don't see him as having an independent > sense of good and bad. Del replies : What do you call an independent sense of good and bad ? There's no such thing IMO. We all need to define our own Rules of morality in order to define what's good or not, and they don't necessarily match our neighbour's. That's even the reason why some debates on the list get hot sometimes : because we don't all have the same rules of morality. So Percy believes in respecting Authority, what's wrong with that ? It never led him into trouble before, quite the contrary. So why should he suddenly change ? Concerning the Dementors : Fudge obviously doesn't believe there *were* Dementors. Umbridge organised that on her own, and I'm dead sure Fudge didn't know about it, and Percy even less. Katie wrote : > And what proof has Percy that Dumbledore has lost his marbles? Del replies : He goes around telling huge stories about LV being reborn, when there's no sign of LV, reborn or not, anywhere to be seen. Katie wrote : > When did Percy determine that Harry was as crazy as the Daily Prophet > claimed? Del replies : You mention the Daily Prophet, and I agree that it is a force to reckon with. Mrs Weasley believed the crap Rita published about Hermione, and it is very possible that Percy believed the crap she wrote about Harry. So that when his parents came up with the story of Harry seeing LV being reborn, Percy was already conditioned to not believe him. Katie wrote : > Why should he immediately distrust his family and friends when he has > admittedly "little information" to condemn them? Del replies : Because it's *logical*. The *only* proof his parents have that LV is indeed reborn is that Harry saw him : very little information indeed. On the other hand, there's a *huge* piece of evidence that LV is still dead : he's nowhere to be seen. So if his family forces him to choose, it's logical that he should condemn them. Katie wrote : > Because the Ministry's policies WERE wrong and unfair under Fudge, > and Percy believed them all the same. Percy knows Dolores Umbridge > and her methods, and claims to have complete confidence in her. I'd > love to hear someone try to defend Umbridge's fascistic policies at > Hogwarts. Del replies : There's a huge difference between a policy in itself and the way it's applied. I have personally nothing against the concept of a High Inquisitor, for example, but I am completely disgusted at the way Umbridge filled that role. I don't think the policies were so obviously unfair that Percy should have been shocked by them. Can you give me precise examples of shocking policies ? You say that Percy knows Umbridge, but I disagree. He can't know her from reputation, because nobody does, not even Arthur seems to know anything about her. And he can't know her that well from work, because he's barely ever met her. He's talked to her a few times at most, and there's no doubt she showed him her honey side. Since Percy is such a bad juge of character (he always was), he probably can't see beyond her facade. And I don't think that even Kneasy could defend Umbridge's actions at Howarts :-) However, her *policies* were not that horrible. Drastic, sure, but she made it sound back at the Ministry like the school was going to the dogs and needed drastic actions, so there was nothing wrong with her decisions, in theory. Percy wasn't talking to his family anymore, so he had no insider's knowledge of what life at Hogwarts was under Umbridge. Katie wrote : > Rather than follow whoever happens to be in power, what Percy ought > to do is determine what right and wrong is, and follow that (and > consequently leaders who follow it as well.) Del replies : How is believing that LV is back "right" ? How is defending one's governing body "wrong" ? Katie wrote: > I don't think Percy is primarily concerned with Harry as a "danger" > to his brother, because he gives no real evidence to support this. > Instead, he says that the "people who count" don't believe Harry, so > Ron ought to as well, to ensure future success. Percy isn't > encouraging Ron to protect himself, he's encouraging him to get in > with the right people. Del replies : DD is considered by the Ministry like a traitor to the nation, and Harry like a liar. So yes Percy is encouraging Ron to get with the right people : the ones who are apparently sane and patriotic. He sees Harry as a danger to his brother in the sense that associating with a state traitor might bring the state to consider you as a traitor too. It's a bit like the Slytherin kids : many see them as bad simply because they don't stand up against Draco. They are evil by implied association. Katie wrote : > I doubt that no one has considered talking to Percy in a > respectful way. Molly adores her son and has tried to contact him, > but Percy won't even talk to her. He doesn't even visit his badly > wounded father in hospital. Yes, Fred and George are quick to > dismiss Percy, as usual, but all others seem to be making every > effort to talk to him and not succeeding. Del replies : Molly is the only one whom we know has tried to talk to Percy, and we don't even have the details of that episode. Molly is not the diplomatic kind, I can see her screwing that up very easily. And there's one person whom we see making pointedly no effort to bring Percy back to the fold : Arthur. It's Arthur who insulted Percy, yet he doesn't seem to be willing to make any reconciliation effort. If Arthur, the adult, is allowed to act so childish, then why should Percy know any better ? Del From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Thu Jul 8 14:41:35 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 14:41:35 -0000 Subject: CoS question was: Re: Dumbledore evil?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105063 > Andrew wrote: > Well then how would Tom Riddle have found it? It would've needed to > be 'wanted to be found' otherwise Tom wouldn't be able to find it. > Unless it could say, I want to be found but not by teachers. If you > look at it this way the teachers would have been able to find it, > but once again there is the parcelmouth thing. It in itself seems as > good as any at stopping people from entering the chamber. > > Andrew boyd: Tom Riddle said in CoS that he worked for five years trying to find the Chamber, plus he was a parselmouth. Just imagine, you have to speak in parseltongue to just the right bathroom fixture! It's a wonder he found it at all...unless he had help from a secret admirer--Salazar Slytherin, anyone? --boyd who wonders what other secrets the Chamber held From quigonginger at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 14:54:27 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 14:54:27 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 22 - St. Mungo's Hospital In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105064 >> (snip) > Lee wrote : > > Look, IMO, I don't care how much experience and such a person may > > have, but when we're talking about someone really close, all that > > detachment can fly out the proverbial window; the instinct to get to > > the hurt one is alive and well. If that's considered childish, well, > > perhaps, then, I'd never work out in the order, either...and I'm no > > kid. :-) > > Del replies : > It's not the *instinct* I'm discussing, it's the *actions* of the > Weasley kids. Sirius explains to them very clearly in what danger they > would put Harry and the Order if they went to see their father right > now, and *still* the kids won't stay put. It's quite clear to me that > if Sirius had not been there to restrain them, they would have gone, > even when knowing full well what the consequences might be. (snip) Ginger adds: It may not seem like a big deal, but let's remember what the twins wanted to do. They wanted to go and visit their father. Not to help him, or save him. Just to see him. I won't discount the importance of deathbed visits, but given the seriousness of the situation, it is not advisable for the reasons Sirius gives. Had they wanted to go to their father if, say, he was doing battle or being tortured, not only would they have possibly been allowed (if they were capable) to go, but the Order would have sent others straight away. Although if I ran the Order, they wouldn't have found out about it until later. I most certainly understand Lee's desire to go. Last year my father had a heart attack, and I wanted to hop in the car and head down, but my mother told me to stay put. There was nothing I could do for him that the Heart Hospital couldn't do, and I'd have just been in the way. Fortunately, it turned out ok. He is much better now, although it did convince him to retire :) I think Del is right, though, that they shouldn't have been allowed to go, and, (please correct me if I am misremembering) Del, I believe it was you who said, further upthread, that this was a good reason why they weren't allowed in the order. I agree there as well. Ginger, (as in quigonginger), who believes that Darth Vader's deathbed confession was real, else how would he have appeared with Yoda and Obi-Wan at the Ewok party? (answering someone else's closing line-nothing to do with this post) From garybec101 at comcast.net Thu Jul 8 15:05:28 2004 From: garybec101 at comcast.net (garybec) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 15:05:28 -0000 Subject: Harry's first Kiss In-Reply-To: <20040708114142.32794.qmail@web25302.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105065 *Udder Pen Dragon* When asked Harry described kissing Cho as 'wet' (he was both > serious and disappointed). I would not be inclined to even count > this as a first real kiss. *Udder Pen Dragon* *Becki* Harry and Cho were under that mistletoe for a half and hour, > (the book states that Harry returned to the common room 30 minutes > later). I think that counts as a first kiss and then some. *Becki,* > > Now Udderpd again > > From Harry's reaction in the common room I don't think that it was not "a first kiss and then some" as Becki so aptly put it. My thought is that their was probably twenty five minutes of Cho crying and talking about Cedric. Not really what Harry needed at that time. > > It does not appear that Harry was embarking on some romantic interlude. Hence Hermione not being worried about Cho being competion, when he returned to the common room. > > However I also believe that at this time Harry wouldn't recognise romance if it bit him on the nose. *Udder PenDragon* Becki says; I am sorry PenDragan but I have to respectfully disagree with you. When Harry returned 30 minutes later, and went through the whole interigation Hermoine asks, "...are you going to see her again?" Harrys thoughts are "...Of course, she would be expecting him to ask her out after what had just happened..." (OoP p460, am) If is was just one little kiss and a whole lot of sobbing, I don't think Harry would feel Cho would be expecting him to ask her out. And not to open up another can of worms,(in regards to your comment about Hermione not being worried about Cho and competition), but I do think Hermione was a bit put off by the whole encounter. Not to get into "shipping", she could have been just being over protective of her best friend, but the way she said a few remarks, "Did you kiss", asked Hermoine briskly. "Well?" he (Ron) demanded. Harry looked from Ron's expression of mingled curiosity and hilarity to Hermiones' slight frown, and nodded. Why was Hermione taking that tone when she ask about if they kissed and why would she be frowning? I do want to clear up my wording of "first kiss and then some", I was not implying that there was anything else but kissing going on, just more that 1 first kiss. Becki, a hopeless romantic. From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 8 15:07:13 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 15:07:13 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105066 "fienxjox" wrote: > Frisbeek wrote: > > Just wondering if maybe LV's mom had a thing with a royal wizard > > and perhaps the HBP is Tom Riddle's half brother. I sort of > > assumed initially that half blood meant half muggle and half wizard; > > but what if it's all wizard but half common wizard and half royal? > I think the "LV is the last desendant of S" kinda discounts this > (assuming of course the blood came from his mother's side). ISTR TMR himself said this during the Chamber scene. HTH HAND -- Phil From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Jul 8 15:27:09 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 15:27:09 -0000 Subject: Why Sirius was Chosen as Godparent & Sirius' sacrifice Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105067 In post #103685, Kneasy said this about Godparents in the UK: "The Godfather bit I consider to be a red herring. In the UK 'Godfather' is a purely symbolic title and confers no rights nor places responsibilities/obligations on the recipient." I've been thinking about this one, because I don't agree it's a red herring. I think this is another point that was supposed to be misinterpreted in POA when we first find out about it, just like Padfoot is mistaken for the Grim, only to discover the true signigicance later on. While I trust Kneasy's explanation of Godparents in RL UK, here are some thoughts about it in the WW. First, the term seems to imply guardianship. Sirius is considerd a legitimate guardian when signing the form Harry needs to go to Hogsmeade. In OOTP, during the fight with Molly over Harry's 'need to know,' Sirius feels he has a legal right to make decisions for Harry, much as the Weasleys do for their children. Notice Molly doesn't dispute that Sirius has some claim on making decisions for Harry, only that his fitness as a guardian is in question. Taking that information, I started thinking again about Lily & James choosing a guardian for Harry. This wasn't a hypothetical situation in their case, as it is for most of us with children. We don't *really* expect both parents to die at the same time, but for James & Lily this was a very real possibility. Not only that, they are choosing a guardian for Harry, a baby with a Prophecy hanging over his head. A child who will undoubtedly be targeted by Voldemort & live a life of danger. Anyone agreeing to guardianship of Harry is agreeing to a life of possible danger and death themselves, not something your average citizen will take on! Looking for someone to fulfill these qualifications leads James & Lily to Sirius. Who better? He possesses all the negative traits Kneasy lists (at a drop of a hat, I might add ), but also has some unique qualifications in this case: Loyal to James & Lily? Check. Brave? Check. In the Order and safe to tell about the Prophecy? Check. Willing to take on the task of guarding the One with the Power? Check. Willing to die for Harry? Check. This musing takes us up to OOTP. Up until then, Sirius has been able to provide Harry with a little guidance, act as a conduit for useful information, act as a source of support for Harry, who is starving for a little personal communication & guidance from an adult. In OOTP, however? Not so much. Sirius is slowly being worked into a corner. The more he fights this the more Dumbledore & the Order press down on him to 'stop acting reckless' 'be safe' 'think of Harry'. The more Sirius tries to do these things, the more he gets trapped in 12 Grimmauld Place, then finally (metaphorically) in Buckbeak's room--the two criminals on the lam, who await execution if they are ever found out. Now back to Godric's Hollow. What if Sirius being willing to die for Harry has more significance than previously thought? What if James & Lily chose him for this specific reason? In other words, there's more to this guardian selection, some additional protection conveyed onto Harry if Sirius does indeed die while attempting to protect him, similar to but not as powerful as Lily's sacrifice. Sort of a strengthening of Lily's sacrifice. This is probably something Dumbledore is unaware of until OOTP, or perhaps is still unaware of, something between Lily/James/Sirius, that may even involves a charm cast between them. For we know that Lily's sacrifice is *separate* from the charm Dumbledore placed on Harry before he was delivered to Petunia. And Sirius, loyal dog that he is, makes a choice. He can stay, cramped in Buckbeak's room, awaiting execution. OR, he can die fighting and give Harry much more protection than he will ever be able to give alive. Given that situation, there's really only one choice Sirius would make. Jen From entropymail at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 15:29:04 2004 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 15:29:04 -0000 Subject: Eastern European HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105068 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > Entropy: Alchemy plays such an important role in the HP books (it can't be an accident that Albus, Rubeus, and Black relate to the alchemical stages white, red, and black) and Prague plays such an interesting role in the history of alchemy that I'm sure JKR is leading us to Prague in some way or another! > Jen: There's canon for him at least living in another country, if not being born in one. He carried that tattered bag with the peeling Professor R.J. Lupin label which he didn't buy new for Hogwarts. Also, where was he after Hogwarts, when the others thought he was the spy? I like to think he got a job as a Prof. in some remote Wizarding school, or even Durmstrang, where fewer questions were asked, etc. Entropy: Good catch, Jen. We have to question just how Lupin has learned so much about the Dark Arts. He certainly didn't learn about it through conventional methods (the MOM, like Moody and Umbridge), wasn't a DE (like Fake!Moody), and we've seen enough of his knowledge to be sure he's not a fraud (like Lockhart). So, how did he gain a knowledge of the Dark Arts vast enough to become a Hogwarts professor (and a good one, to boot!)? Durmstrang seems a good a place as any to learn first-hand about the Dark Arts. And, knowing about their affinity for all things "dark" , would probably be more apt to hire a werewolf than any other "respectable" wizarding school. :: Entropy :: From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Thu Jul 8 15:32:11 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 15:32:11 -0000 Subject: Wands? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105069 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: SSSusan: > Hmmmm. Is there a place in canon where Harry uses Hermione's >wand? I thought this got brought up simply as a *possibility* of >something which might've been one of JKR's "I got goosebumps from >Cuaron's foreshadowing" episodes from the PoA movie. snip > To my recollection, nowhere in canon does Harry does ever use >Hermione's wand in such a way that it's shown to be "stronger." > Can anybody else confirm or deny this? "K": It's only movie contamination. I don't recall if Harry ever uses Hermione's wand in any of the books. I don't believe this scene from PoA is an example of Hermione's wand being anything special. I'm not saying there isn't a possibility her wand will be important later. I just don't think this scene is pointing to that. I do, however, believe this scene is just another example of Harry being able to control people and/or objects. Harry is the one who is very agitated and it's Harry that *made up his mind in a split second*. I find it hard to believe that the three kids managed to come up with the *exact same idea* at the *exact same time*. Here are just a few examples: ~*~ 'I have not been helping Sirius,' said Lupin. 'If you'll give me a chance, I'll explain. Look--' 'He separated Harry, Ron and Hermione's wands and threw each back to it's owner; Harry caught his, stunned. poa-ch 17-pg 254-uk Harry made up his mind in a split second. Before Snape could take even one step towards him, he had raised his wand. 'Expelliarmus!' he yelled - except that his wasn't the only voice that shouted. There was a blast that made the door rattle on it's hinges; Snape was lifted off his feet and slammed into the wall, then slid down it to the floor, a trickle of blood oozing from under his hair. He had been knocked out. Harry looked around. Both Ron and Hermione had tried to disarm Snape at exactly the same moment. Snape's wand soared in a high arc and landed on the bed next to Crookshanks. 'You shouldn't have done that,' said Black, looking at Harry. 'You should have left him to me...' Harry avoided Black's eyes. He wasn't sure, even now, that he'd done the right thing. 'We attacked a teacher...we attacked a teacher...' Hermione whimpered, staring at the lifeless Snape with frightened eyes. 'Oh, we're going to be in so much trouble--' poa-ch 19-pg 265-uk ~*~ Snape gave Harry a swift, piercing look. Harry looked at the floor. He wished Ron would put his wand down. Ron dropped his wand. ss-ch 10-pg 177 ~*~ 'Ron gave them to me,' said Harry, praying he'd get a chance to tip Ron off before Snape saw him. 'He - brought them back from Hogsmeade last time- Right on cue, Ron came bursting into the office. He was completely out of breath, and stopped just short of Snape's desk, clutching the stitch in his chest and trying to speak. 'I - gave - Harry - that - stuff,' he choked. "Bought - it - in - Zonkos - ages - ago. poa-ch 14-pgs 210-212-uk ~*~ "Right," said Harry hastily, staring at the contents of the Pensieve again, which were swirling more slowly now that Dumbledore had stopped adding thoughts. "And...er..." But the Pensieve seemed to be asking his questions for him. Snape's face was swimming on the surface again. Dumbledore glanced down into it, and then up at Harry. "No more has Professor Snape," he said. gof-ch 30-pgs 603-604-us *Shrieking Shack - Harry made up his mind in a split second. *Snape/Troll scene - He wished Ron would put his wand down. *Snape/Hogsmeade scene - Ron gave them to me *Pensieve - Right, said Harry hastily, staring at the contents of the Pensieve again....But the Pensieve seemed to be asking his questions for him. "K" From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 8 15:34:29 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 15:34:29 -0000 Subject: Harry's glasses (was Re: Foreshadowing for books 6 & 7- PoA DVD on the way!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105070 Diana wrote: > > After seeing PoA yet again in IMAX last week, I'm now certain > > that Harry losing his glasses at the Whomping Willow foreshadows > > him losing his glasses at a critical time in book 6 and/or 7. > > There's just no other reason for this scene to be in the movie... Del replies : > In fact, it's quite bothering that the glasses have not been causing > more troubles already in the first 5 books. So they prevent him from > seeing well during a rainy match ? Big deal. I wear glasses too, > and I can tell you that they are much more annoying that just that, > in RL. For one, Harry is lucky they never fell off his nose during > one of his acrobatic encounters with LV or any other baddy : > falling, jumping, being dragged and carried, and so on, and they > never move ?? > And for two, he never has to change them. Lucky boy, that his vision > should have stabilised as early as 11. > > Del, who wonders why JKR made Harry wear glasses, if they don't > cause him any trouble. SSSusan, addressing Del's final question: Because the glasses cover his EYES, which are his real point of vulnerability, maybe?? Otherwise, why not just get LASIK? I did, and it's great. :-) Seriously, though, this was *the* scene which caught my attention on the first go-round, in terms of not-canon but possibly giving JKR goosebumps. I think this is important. Siriusly Snapey Susan From ExSlytherin at aol.com Thu Jul 8 15:34:13 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 15:34:13 -0000 Subject: Secret Chamber in Malfoy Mansion (was Ringdear of Marauders: Sirius or James?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105071 > "Adan" wrote: > Oh, I do like this. He does have that little chamber, probably > filled with *alleged* nasty stuff, at least according to what Mr. > Borgin (or was it Burke?) said in CoS. Sorry, the book went to > Florida with my boy... > > Plus, I'd just really like to see how the Malfoys live. Mandy here: Wouldn't we all! But it will only happen if Harry gets to visit Malfoy Mansion (as we only see the story through his eyes), and I don't see Draco inviting Potter over to spend the summer hols with him any time soon, unfortunatly. Mandy, who keeps coming up with some crazy ideas on how to get Harry over to the Mansion, just so I can see inside JKR's vision of the Malfoy universe. From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Thu Jul 8 15:40:41 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 15:40:41 -0000 Subject: Homosexuality in HP - Clarification In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105072 >>> Sad1199 says: Why should there be any homosexual relationships in the book at all? Unless HP is gay, there is no reason to have any kind of homosexual relationship anywhere else. I mean, if Sirius was gay (I say not!) how would that affect the end of the series? JKR does not seem the type to have unnecessary relationships and/or characters in her books, so why bother? Brenda now: "How would that affect the end of the series?" you ask. But does it necessarily have to affect the plot, I rebuttal. It will most likely remain ambiguous to be read as subtle innuendos, leaving rooms for different interpretations. It just enriches the literature as a whole, with multiple-layered subtexts and nice parallel to the real world that we all live in. Did JKR choose this route to be politically correct -- I doubt it. I believe she is simply creating the magic world drawn from our everyday life, as you are bound to run into many minorities nowadays (heck, half of my male friends are gay anyways but I still love them!) >>> Stefanie: I'm the first to don the "'SNAPE'S WORST MEMORY' WAS A 20 MINUTE > > SNAPSHOT INTO THE LIVES OF THESE BOYS AND HARDLY A DOCUMENTARY OF > > THEIR ENTIRE LIVES" sandwich sign, > > Burbs: I find it amazing that all of this conjecture about Sirius's romantic past (or lack thereof) is being hotly discussed with no evidence whatsoever. Who *says* he didn't have girlfriends? (OK, *or boyfriends*) The fact he doesn't notice some girl sitting behind him, eyeing him off on one single occasion doesn't really mean that he doesn't *ever* notice girls, does it? As you say, these moments are simply that -- moments. We don't really know that much about *any* of the Maurauders. > > (Mrs) Lee Storm: Personally, I didn't read any homosexual innuendo or anything in OOTP. I saw people who cared for each other as really good friends do. Why is it that if the word "affectionate" is used with men, the possibility of homosexuality is brought forth? Affection can be bestowed upon anyone a person happens to love as a friend, as a family member, etc. > > Burbs again: No, I didn't either, Lee. To me, "affectionately" could be replaced with "fondly", rather than "lustfully" or "longingly"! IMHO there's waaaaaaaay too much being read into this one; bit of a knee-jerk on the part of folks who are a bit timid with the old boy/boy, girl/girl thing, methinks. <<< Brenda steps in: When I started this thread (and caused all the mayhem ;P), my intention was NOT to point out who is homosexual and who's not. I just wanted to get the message across that the amount of canon given at this moment is too little to draw our final conclusions. We all have different experience, of much different combination of backgrounds, with varying degree of attachment/connotation to certain words (e.g. "affectionately"). Thus it is no surprise that we all share different opinions and interpretation on the matter, and I daresay this makes it more exciting for JKR (and the rest of us) to appreciate the series even more so. Also in my original post, I talked about the famous Hamlet's attack on Gertrude and the Oedipus Complex. IMO it is unlikely that Shakespeare created this scene to portray this certain aspect of human psychology/psychoanalysis. However after many years, with the tremendous amount of contribution from Sigmund Freud who formally constructed the theory, it is *now* viewed as one of the classic moments of Oedipus in English literature. It is safe to assume that this is what happened with our beloved character Sirius. As Katie had eloquently put it (in one of the following posts to the thread), it is doubtful she created him with full intention of making him, well "bent" (apologies for my favorite slang). But in the process of adding more shapes and shades to the character, she might have decided to play on it, hopefully for a *short* while. For more information, please refer to Message # 104932 and following posts. Just to clarify, I am one of the LAST groups of people (mostly girls I suppose) who wish he was emotionally unavailable to us (me wants him for me ). But I can see how other people will interpret it this way and as much as this taunts me, it is still FUN to play on this idea (sadistic kind of fun, to be honest). I posted a CRAZY far- fetched fan-fiction continuing on this stream, borrowing the fundamentals from Alla's favorite "Sirius-Snape SHIP". That is how much I *detest* the thought of it, really. Brenda From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Thu Jul 8 15:50:56 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 15:50:56 -0000 Subject: Lupin (was: Eastern European HBP?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105073 > Entropy wrote: > So, how did [Lupin] gain a knowledge of the Dark Arts vast enough to become a Hogwarts professor (and a good one, to boot!)? Durmstrang seems a good a place as any to learn first-hand about the Dark Arts. And, knowing about their affinity for all things "dark" , would probably be more apt to hire a werewolf than any other "respectable" wizarding school. > :: Entropy :: boyd: Perhaps a simpler explanation (although probably less fun :)) is the more obvious one: Lupin is a smart, exremely capable wizard, one of the four most talented wizards that made up the Marauders. He and the other Marauders explored Hogwarts and its surrounding extensively, probably encountering and dealing with many of the beasties it hides. They obviously learned magic that other students, other teachers even, didn't know, such as how to become an animagus and how to create the Marauders Map. And if their treatment of Snape is any indication, they'd better have known how to defend themselves in a fight, too. Pretty strong training already. Then, upon leaving Hogwarts, Lupin disappears from our radar screen. However, since he was a werewolf, he probably tries to find remote locations to live outside of persecution, thus his ragged clothes. And in these remote locations, he may well have occasionally encountered beasties. So he gets frequent practice with all kinds of creatures. And when he is found once in a blue moon by persecutors, he has to defend himself. I mean, what better good guy to teach DADA than a werewolf? Maybe an ex-DE? (ooh, did I just say that?) --boyd From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Thu Jul 8 16:00:13 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:00:13 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I'm disappointed... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105074 [Lee]: Which happened to be in a flavour which didn't sell well...Ear Wax! And though the memory charm was effective at blotting out Loona's true ancestry from her memory, for some reason, the taste of Ear Wax still causes her to cringe away from Berty Bott's Every Flavour Beans...but that's another story... Now, it's up to Master Trevor to see if he can reverse the memory charm or, perhaps, he'll just admire the being his daughter has become... Gina: ....well until he found out she believed in the Crumple Horned Snorkack "Oh Brother" croaked ToadMaster Trevor as he slid off his slimy rock and began hopping back to Neville realizing that he much preferred toadhood with Neville to fatherhood with Loony Lovegood. .....Meanwhile back at the campsight Luna and her father are staring at the latest issue of the Quibbler upside down when Ron shrieks - a badly transfigured bat with Snape's face come flying towards them - "What are you doing Potter? You cannot use that Kettle without me you pitiful potionless prat! Don't raise your hand Granger - I an sure you know EVERYTHING about the mystic Kettle and what to put in it don't you?" "Actually Professor I was only going to say that I knew you were a Vampire since book three when I did Professor Lupin's vampire essay that I really did not have to do at all since it was only a stab at you that Harry was too thick to pick up on. But if you don't mind me saying I think you should have taken a little more of you unbatty serum." "Oh Shut up Granger!" Snape yells as he lands on a stump and tries to drink some of the potion in the vial tied around his neck. "You should be grateful I am here since none of you know what you are doing and only I can make the potion to correct flatfootedness without some horrible side effect. But will you admit you need me? - NO! You are too arrogant like Harry's stutting father and..." "Oh alright Snivelly Poo - come and play with your chemistry set then" says Harry. "Why you little...." Hermione Shrieks! They all turn around - even Luna and Mr. Lovegood who until now have been oblivious to the whole seen. "Why it's a crumpled horned Snorkack!" Screams Luna with that dreamy look in her eyes. (Trevor in the distance "Oh brother" hopping further away) "No it isn't" says Ron "well it wasn't I mean, but it is now...." What the heck are you saying?" asks Hermione. "Well it looks like a Snorkack that used that straightening potion, but the large male has been wearing that kettle on its head for some sort of mating ritual which has now caused all the straight horned snorkacks to be crumpled again..." Ron says looking amused. "Well, are you waiting for the grass to grow? Get the kettle!" yells batty Snape..... From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Thu Jul 8 16:14:47 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 16:14:47 -0000 Subject: GH (Re: JKR requested bat shot in PS/SS film...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105075 "fridwulfa hagrid"wrote a while back: We know that the scene where we see Lily's being murdered, the flashback,contained, at first, the murder of James too. JK asked especifically that only Lily should be seen. That reinforced the idea that the male voice Harry hears when the dementors approach him "It's him, Lily, take Harry and run..." was not James's, that James was maybe already dead and there was a third person in the house. Snape and Lupin are the favourite theories. -------------- Arya then replied: That's three separate occassions where Harry has heard the voice of James--and, as he is the one who heard them, I think if Harry failed to notice a way that the voice in his Dementor-induced memories ill-fit the other two voice examples, then I say it was James. Harry may be thick at times but I have a feeling those three lone times he heard his father are quite burned vividly into his memory. I say James is James and James is dead. ----------- "smartone564" now asks: > Alright, I find your reasoning for the last paragraph (dying words) > to make a great deal of sense. But how does someone get > AKed and still have dying words, or was he injured, and knew it > was the end? Also, I think the wording of what he said that > wouldn't tip off LV might be interesting, unless LV was in a mad > rush/ giddiness by then and wasn't too aware of his > surroundings (why I think he told Lily to move). -------------- Arya Now: Well, I don't think Voldemort, in this situation, is one to just go AK'ing without both a bit of taunting and a bit of Legilimency-aided inquisition. For many reasons, I cannot believe that Lily or James knew any more than the rest of the Order, DE's and Voldemort in relation to the prophecy. I think they would have only known that "overheard" portion. Why? I think Dumbledore would have to tell them so that they (and the Longbottoms) would have been duly warned to go into hiding and I think DD wold have told the Order in general because, hey, Voldemort knew, so they might as well know, too. However, I think Dumbledore would still keep the Potters and Longbottoms in the dark as to the ENTIRE (more depressing, stressing) prophecy because, at that time, I think Dumbledore would have felt it was a great burden to put on the parents. Remember, none of them could have known the Potters would be dead in merely a year and the 'mark as an equal' (which only DD knew) done so soon. I'm thinking that DD wanted the families to try to raise their sons to be the best sons they could be without the fear of having to someday send one off to kill or be killed and with the idea that which ever son was The One, they'd not know until they were each much older wizards. I highly doubt anyone expected Harry to be marked as a baby. Anyway......I don't think Voldemort's interest in knowing the prophecy is really that new. I imagine he would have liked to know as much as possible. He likely had asked James some leading question that would probe his mind on this and, when Volde confirmed James knew no more than he, he was free to kill James. Hence my thought that there words exchanged and they likely concerned the prophecy. Plus, we have to believe James said and tried a few things to warrant Voldemort admitting that 'he fought bravely'. He certainly didn't fall in a heartbeat like Cedric did--James fought his death, IMO. ~Arya From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Jul 8 16:23:53 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 16:23:53 -0000 Subject: CoS question was: Re: Dumbledore evil?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105076 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > Well then how would Tom Riddle have found it? It would've needed to be 'wanted to be found' otherwise Tom wouldn't be able to find it. Unless it could say, I want to be found but not by teachers. If you look at it this way the teachers would have been able to find it, but once again there is the parcelmouth thing. It in itself seems as good as any at stopping people from entering the chamber.< The Mirror of Erised was selective about who could retrieve the Stone. It would release it only to one who wanted to find it but not use it. The Chamber might be enchanted in a similar fashion but to the opposite effect -- so that wanting to find it wouldn't be enough--you *would* have to want to use it. Although one must be a parselmouth to open the chamber, it is hard to see why Dumbledore and all the other searchers wouldn't have talked to Myrtle, and having done so, investigated the broken tap and found the snake as easily as Harry did--unless the snake wasn't normally that easy to find. Pippin From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Thu Jul 8 16:26:26 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 16:26:26 -0000 Subject: Harry's first Kiss In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105077 > *Udder Pen Dragon* > When asked Harry described kissing Cho as 'wet' (he was both > serious and disappointed). I would not be inclined to even count > this as a first real kiss. > *Becki* > Harry and Cho were under that mistletoe for a half and hour, > (the book states that Harry returned to the common room 30 minutes > later). I think that counts as a first kiss and then some. ---------------- > Udderpd again > From Harry's reaction in the common room I don't think that it was > not "a first kiss and then some" as Becki so aptly put it. My > thought is that their was probably twenty five minutes of Cho crying > and talking about Cedric. Not really what Harry needed at that time. > > Becki again: > I am sorry PenDragan but I have to respectfully disagree with you. > When Harry returned 30 minutes later, and went through the whole > interigation Hermoine asks, "...are you going to see her again?" > Harrys thoughts are "...Of course, she would be expecting him to > ask her out after what had just happened..." (OoP p460, am) > If is was just one little kiss and a whole lot of sobbing, I don't > think Harry would feel Cho would be expecting him to ask her out. *snipped shipping stuff because I say this ain't the best list for that discussion * --------------------- Arya now: I think I need to side with UdderPen here. To a 15 year old and a 1st kiss, yes, just one kiss (and subsequent awkward petting on the back while she sobs) is enough to make a kid think they're practially going steady and so certainly Harry would feel she wanted him to ask her out. I just can't see that kiss going very far at all since I doubt Harry was inclined to let himself enjoy it or further it--how could he when she's likely crying harder and harder? We saw he was confused about possibly being a bad kisser--there was no positive reinforcement for him to believe that by continuing/furthering a kiss, she was getting any enjoyment. It's totally a case of conflicting emotions. He's wanted to kis her for maybe a year or more and here she is, but yet she's also suddenly expressing a bunch of sadness and is obviously not happy. Poor Harry, Cho was such a horrid first anything. I say the kiss happened, her crying got more intense and she likely fell more against his chest while he did the pat on the back thing while he stood, horrified/confused/still-thrilled as she sobbed about Cedric. Arya From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Thu Jul 8 16:27:17 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 16:27:17 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105078 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com "justcarol67": > If the pattern of the DADA teacher dying or losing his/her job at > the end of the book holds true, Snape can't be the DADA teacher >in Book 6, as JKR has stated in an interview that he'll play a key >role in Book 7. (If he becomes DADA teacher in Book 7, I'll worry >about his survival. As it is, we have what amounts to a promise >that he'll survive past the end of Book 6.) > I know you haven't forgotten this exchange, but others may not be > familiar with it: > Q: "There's an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape." > JKR: "He, um, there's so much I wish I could say to you, and I >can't because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that >question, can I just say to you that I'm slightly stunned that >you've said that and you'll find out why I'm so stunned if you read >Book 7. That's all I'm going to say." Steve/asian_lovr2 > Thanks for that quote and the link, I wasn't aware of the >particular statement. That certainly weakens my positions. I have > been pretty strongly advocating Snape as DADA teacher and Snapes >dying in book 6. While you haven't shot that down completely, you >have certainly weakened my it and given me pause for doubt. > It is possible that Snape will die in book 6, and it is his STORY >that will continue in book 7. "K": Ah, it's that quote again. ^-^ This is the interview people use to show Snape will fall in love in book 7 and/or that he will be redeemed. You must go back to that interview and read again. Some important information was left out that Carol quoted. Let me also say that the last time I quoted this interview, I was told that one should hear the audio version so you might want to find it and listen for yourself. The Connection 12 October 1999 J.K. Rowling Interview Transcript HOST: What about Snape? JKR: Snape is a very sadistic teacher, loosely based on a teacher I myself had, I have to say. I think children are very aware and we are kidding ourselves if we don't think that they are, that teachers do sometimes abuse their power and this particular teacher does abuse his power. He's not a particularly pleasant person at all. However, everyone should keep their eye on Snape, I'll just say that because there is more to him than meets the eye and you will find out part of what I am talking about if you read Book 4. No, I'm not trying to drum up more sales, go to the library and get it out. I'd rather people read it. HOST: One of our internet correspondents wondered if Snape is going to fall in love. (JKR laughs) Who on earth would want Snape in love with them? That's a very horrible idea. HOST: There's an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape. JKR: He, um, there's so much I wish I could say to you, and I can't because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that I'm slightly stunned that you've said that and you'll find out why I'm so stunned if you read Book 7. That's all I'm going to say. www.quick-quote-quill.org...ransc.html "K": Someone asks if Snape is going to fall in love. JKR responds with wondering who would want Snape in love with them. It's a horrible idea. (Shame on her!) The person doing the interview then makes a statemnent about a redemptive pattern and Snape. JKR then responds by saying there's so much she would like to say but it would ruin...It is at this time JKR then goes back to the original question of Snape falling in love. ~JKR: I promise you, whoever asked that question ( if Snape is going to fall in love)... It is to this question that she says: ~ can I just say to you that I'm slightly stunned that you've said that and you'll find out why I'm so stunned if you read Book 7. That's all I'm going to say. She never says Snape will fall in love in book 7. This could be anything from Snape is/was/will be/will never be in love. The only thing JKR says about redemption is that she can't tell. Steve/asian-lovr2: > It is possible that Snape will die in book 6, and it is his STORY > that will continue in book 7. "K": I do believe that is a possibility though I hope it's not the case. I also think Snape will get his chance at the DADA job but I'm not sure which book that will be. I also want to say that it's Harry who appears to be a natural at the Dark Arts. Here is a list of all the interviews with JKR where she mentions Snape. It's possible there are some I have missed. ~*~ 1999 ~*~ Amazon UK ca. 1999 Amazon.co.uk: Are your characters based on people you know? Rowling: Some of them are, but I have to be extremely careful what I say about this. Mostly, real people inspire a character, but once they are inside your head they start turning into something quite different. Professor Snape and Gilderoy Lockhart both started as exaggerated versions of people I've met, but became rather different once I got them on the page. Hermione is a bit like me when I was 11, though much cleverer. www.quick-quote-quill.org...-staff.htm (Same as The Daily Telegraph July 10 1999 -no longer on qq ???) Family Education Summer 1999 Harry Potter Author Works Her Magic Katy Abel Q: Who's your favorite character besides Harry Potter? A: It's very hard to choose. It's fun to write about Snape because he's a deeply horrible person. Hagrid is someone I'd love to meet. www.quick-quote-quill.org...n-abel.htm The Connection 12 October 1999 J.K. Rowling Interview Tran***** What about Snape? JKR: Snape is a very sadistic teacher, loosely based on a teacher I myself had, I have to say. I think children are very aware and we are kidding ourselves if we don't think that they are, that teachers do sometimes abuse their power and this particular teacher does abuse his power. He's not a particularly pleasant person at all. However, everyone should keep their eye on Snape, I'll just say that because there is more to him than meets the eye and you will find out part of what I am talking about if you read Book 4. No, I'm not trying to drum up more sales, go to the library and get it out. I'd rather people read it. One of our internet correspondents wondered if Snape is going to fall in love. (JKR laughs) Who on earth would want Snape in love with them? That's a very horrible idea. There's an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape JKR: He, um, there's so much I wish I could say to you, and I can't because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that I'm slightly stunned that you've said that and you'll find out why I'm so stunned if you read Book 7. That's all I'm going to say. www.quick-quote-quill.org...ransc.html The Record, Northern NJ 14 October 1999 Students Meet the Real Wizard Behind the Harry Potter Craze By Leslie Brody Professor Snape, she said, was based on a teacher she despised: "The great thing about becoming a writer is you can get revenge on everyone." www.quick-quote-quill.org...brody.html The Star-Ledger, Newark, NJ 16 October 1999 Harry Potter's creator meets her public - Author J.K.Rowling answers questions from students at a school in Montclair By Mark McGarrity Q. Julia Moore asked, "Are any of the stories based on personal memories or people you know?" A. Rowling said, "Hermione is an exaggerated version of me when I was 11. But I was never that clever or annoying." She also reported that Professor Snake is based on a chemistry teacher who hated her and made her life miserable. "The great thing about being a writer is that you have a chance to get back at those people who wronged you," she said. www.quick-quote-quill.org...rity2.html The Boston Globe 18 October 1999 All about Harry Potter from Quidditch to the future of the Sorting Hat By Stephanie Loer Dursley is a place in Britain as is Snape. www.quick-quote-quill.org...-loer.html Press Club 20 October 1999 J.K. Rowling Interview Transcript SB: Why in the first book does Harry's lightening scar flash, or when he gets his lightening scar flash, when Snap looks at him? JKR: Snape. SB: Snape. JKR: Okay, this is a [laughter] SB: I have a problem as well! JKR: He's sleep deprived, he's got five-month old twins. Um *exasperated noise* If anyone hasn't finished reading book one, would they please put their fingers really tightly in their ears now, if they don't want the ending ruined? Really tightly now, cause this is a question about the ending. Um Quirrell had the back of his head to Harry at the point when Harry looked at Snape so someone else was looking at Harry through a certain turban. See what I mean? If you've read it, you understand, and if you haven't read it, you're going what? But that's okay. www.quick-quote-quill.org...ransc.html ~*~ 2000 ~*~ *America Online, October 19, 2000 Chat Tran***** (Same as AOL Chat 19 October 2000-www.quick-quote-quill.org...- aol.html) Ms. Rowling, where do you come up with those names of the characters, like Quidditch? Quidditch is a name I invented. I just wanted a word which began with the letter 'Q' (I don't know why, it was just a whim). Many of the names are taken from maps -- for instance, Snape, which is an English village. Why did you make Quirrell the bad guy instead of Snape? Ms. Rowling, which character besides Harry is your favorite, and why? Because I know all about Snape and he wasn't about to put on a turban. Ms. Rowling, which character besides Harry is your favorite, and why? I think that would have to be Hagrid -- but I love Ron and Hermione too, and I also love writing characters like Gilderoy Lockhart, Snape, the Dursleys... it's such fun doing horrible things to them. www.quick-quote-quill.org...t-aol.html *AOL Chat 19 October 2000 Ms. Rowling, where do you come up with those names of the characters, like Quidditch? Quidditch is a name I invented. I just wanted a word which began with the letter 'Q' (I don't know why, it was just a whim). Many of the names are taken from maps -- for instance, Snape, which is an English village. Why did you make Quirrell the bad guy instead of Snape Because I know all about Snape, and he wasn't about to put on a turban. I think that would have to be Hagrid -- but I love Ron and Hermione too, and I also love writing characters like Gilderoy Lockhart, Snape, the Dursleys... it's such fun doing horrible things to them. www.quick-quote-quill.org...t-aol.html Scholastic EToys, Fall 2000 and Scholastic Fall 2000 Interview Tran***** Many of the names are invented, for example "Quidditch" and "Muggle." I also collect unusual names, and I take them from all sorts of different places. "Hedwig" was a saint, "Dumbledore" is an old English word for "bumblebee," and Snape is the name of a place in England. www.quick-quote-quill.org...etoys.html www.quick-quote-quill.org...astic.html Barnes and Noble Chat 20 October 2000 (Same as Transcript of Yahooligans! Chat with J.K. Rowling October 20, 2000 ? www.quick-quote-quill.org...gans.html) Why does Professor Dumbledore allow Professor Snape to be so nasty to the students (especially to Harry, Hermione, and N JKR: Dumbledore believes there are all sorts of lessons in life; horrible teachers like Snape are one of them! The character of Professor Snape fascinates me. Will you reveal his back story further in the next Harry Potter book? JKR: You will find out more about Snape in future books. Keep an eye on him! www.quick-quote-quill.org...noble.html Larry King Live October 20, 2000 KING: Now they're doing a movie, now. I ran into Mr. Rickman, who is going to be one of the stars of the movie. ROWLING: Yes, he's playing Snake. Good choice. KING: You are a name freak. ROWLING: I am a bit of a name freak. A lot of the names that I didn't invent come from maps. Snape is a place name in Britain. Dumbledore means -- dumbledore is an old English dialect word for bumblebee, because he is a musical person. And I imagine him humming to himself all the time. Hagrid is also an old English word. Hedwig was a saint, a Medieval saint. I collect them. You know, if I hear a good name, I have got to write it down. And it will probably crop up somewhere. www.quick-quote-quill.org...ryking.htm ~*~ 2001 ~*~ Comic Relief March 2001 Live Chat How old are Professor Dumbledore and Professor Snape JKR: Dumbledore's about 150 years old... wizards have a longer life expectancy than us Muggles, Snape's 35 or 6. http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2001/0301-comicrelief- staff.htm BBC 02 November 2001 J.K. Rowlng: "Fans will be happy" JK also revealed she gave some of the actors some top secret background information that will emerge for the rest of us in later books. She said she thought it was important to tell them so they knew their characters better: "I did give certain information to Robbie Coltrane, the background story about Hagrid and I gave Alan Rickman a little bit on Snape," she told Newsround's Lizo Mzimba. "But no-one should go out and kidnap them because they won't talk!" www.quick-quote-quill.org...1-bbc.html Blue Peter question-and-answer session with JKR JKR. Erm, I, I, kind of collect unusual names. You have to be very careful about telling me your name if you do have an unusual name because I'll probably put you in a book ... and I make a lot of the names up. But mostly maps. Maps are a great source for names ... BPP2. Really? JKR. Yeah. Dursley and Dudley and Snape are all, erm, places I can't visit anymore obviously. f3.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/4KG...ePeter.htm (under 'FILES' on HPFGU -must be a member to access - not sure how reliable the transcript is. ~*~ 2003 ~*~ BBC News June 19, 2003 Jeremy Paxman JEREMY PAXMAN: Are we going to discover anything more about Snape? JK ROWLING: Yes. JEREMY PAXMAN: And Harry's mother? Did he have a crush on Harry's mother or unrequited love or anything like that? JK ROWLING: Hence his animosity to Harry? JEREMY PAXMAN: Yes. JK ROWLING: You speculate? JEREMY PAXMAN: I speculate, yes, I'm just asking whether you can tell us. JK ROWLING: No I can't tell you. But you do find out a lot more about Snape and quite a lot more about him actually. www.quick-quote-quill.org...paxman.htm Royal Albert Hall Appearance June 26 2003 Q&A with Stephen Fry SF: Where as most of the character, like Snape for example, are very hard to love but there's a sort of ambiguity I think is probably the best word you can't quite decide, there's something rather sad about Snape as well, something very lonely and you kind of, although he turns out to of course have such a wicked past and it's fascinating to watch how he you know, in the first book we thought he was the evil one and a aprt form Voldemort the most evil and in the second we thought that and slowly we just get this idea that maybe he's not so bad after all JKR: Yeees. You shouldn't think he's too nice, let me just say that. SF: Right I shall bear that in mind. Worth watching Serverus Snape JKR: He's worth keeping and eye on, definitely JL: Prof Snape has always wanted to be the defence against the dark arts teacher. In book 5 he still doesn't get the job Why does Professor Dumbledore not allow him to be the defence against the dark arts teacher? SF: There JKR: That is an excellent question and the reason is that, I have to be careful what I say here, the reason is that to answer it fully would give and awful lot away about the remaining two books but when Professor Dumbledore took Professor Snape on to the staff and Professor Snape said I'd like to teach defence against the darks arts please and Professor Dumbledore felt that that might bring out the worst in Professor Snape Somewhat JKR: So he said I think we'll let you teach potions and see how you get along there SF: Hmm. Now Snape, we talked a little about him before. There's something about the letter S isn't there? JKR: Yes there is SF: Especially with an N in with it. You can't help saying it without snarling JKR: I could have very easily have called him Snicket but Snicket is a funier, kinder word SF: And sneeze and sneer and Snape and JKR: And snarl SF: Yes and of course the founder of the house was JKR: Salazar Slytherin SF: Salazar Slytherin another snaky thing JKR: Very snaky SF: Snakes feature a lot. Is Parselmouth a real thing or did you make that up? JKR: Parselmouth is an old word for someone who has a problem with their mouth like a hair lip www.quick-quote-quill.org...ll-fry.htm June 20th 2003 The Times no longer listed/don't know if there are Snape references ~*~ 2004 ~*~ J.K. Rowling's World Book Day Chat: March 4, 2004 Ernie: I wonder if you can let us know what form will Professor Snape's Boggart and Patronus take? I am very curious. JK Rowling replies - Well, I'm not going to tell you Ernie, but that's because it would give so much away. I wonder whether Ernie is your real name? (It was my grandfather's). Kyla: What made Sirius decide to send Snape to the Willow? JK Rowling replies - Because Sirius loathed Snape (and the feeling was entirely mutual). You'll find out more about this in due course. Ali: Why specifically does Dumbledore trust Snape? JK Rowling replies - Another excellent and non-answerable question. I shall merely say that Snape has given Dumbledore his story and Dumbledore believes it. Megan: Is there a link between Snape and vampires? JK Rowling replies - Erm... I don't think so. HarriFreak: Who is the 'one that never will return' deatheater? JK Rowling replies - You have to work it out, but a lot of fansites have got it right. www.the-leaky-cauldron.or...y2004.html JK Rowling Official Website Section: F.A.Q. Who is your favourite character? I love: Harry, Hermione, Ron, Hagrid, Dumbledore, Ginny, Fred, George and Lupin. I love writing (though would not necessarily want to meet) Snape. My favourite new character is Luna Lovegood. www.jkrowling.com/textonl...w.cfm?id=8 From ExSlytherin at aol.com Thu Jul 8 16:43:34 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 16:43:34 -0000 Subject: Marked at 19 Was: Fear and Valour (Long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105079 > Bart Jr was never marked! > My supporting canon is that he was extremely young when he crucioed > the Longbottoms. Perhaps too young to have actually been into the DE > creed beyond his initiation. So young he may have been an outside > and silent inactive supporter of LV right up till he became > Vapomort. We know that Barty Jr crucioed the Longbottoms after > Godrics Hollow. So if the mark was to be placed on the DE by > Voldemort himself to seal the connection it could not have been done > if Barty Jr hadn't actually joined before Voldys failed AK on Harry. > Therefore, he may not be an actual Death Eater, and may not be > wearing the Dark Mark at all. Meaning if he was to will himself to > say Voldemort there is nothing magical to stop him. Mandy here: I have to disagree about the age of 19 being too young to be a marked DE. Hate groups especially target the young. 15, 16, 17 years of age is time of great disenfranchisement and disillusionment in young people. Groups like the KKK and similar, Skinheads and such, go after recruiting teens because they are an easy target and easily seduced. These young kids, mostly boys, are looking for guidance and control (although they would never admit it) and these gangs and organized groups give them a sense of purpose and direction. Schools are perfect recruiting grounds for these groups and Hogwarts would have been no exception. Even with DD in control. We know that the DA thrived under Umbridge's nose for a long time without he knowing it, and it shows how easily secret groups can take hold in inside an organization, even one as controlled as Hogwats was under Umbridge's rule. Voldemort would have been a fool not to extend his reach into Hogwarts through young Slytherin purebloods. These young teens are primed to fall into rank behind Voldemort as soon as they leave school at 18 years old. I imagine most would be Marked as soon as they leave school and join the DE as adults, some perhaps even sooner. Most of these young boys who are seduced by the rhetoric these hate groups put forth are beta males, and follow rather than lead but a few do emerge and leaders. These intelligent, violent youths are very charismatic and dangerous and are often used to recruit others. Lucius Malfoy is a perfect example. I have always imagined that Lucius was wearing the Mark during his final years of school although he could have been an exception. But couple that with the idea that Malfoy was head boy at Hogwarts, (I'd be very disappointed if he wasn't) and his wealth and social status and I can guarantee he was instrumental in recruiting others in to Voldemorts fold. Those others being that gang of Slytherins mentioned by Sirius who all became DE. Including the only female DE we know about; Bellatrix Black and Snape who as a desperately lonely younger boy would have been easily seduced. Although Malfoy would have left Hogwarts by the time Barty Crouch Jr was there, I'll bet there was another `recruiter' working hard to bring new young blood, pureblood, to Voldemort. Perhaps it was Bellatrix, or even Snape who would only have been 2 or 3 years above Barty at Hogwarts. We send 19 year old into war to die. I don't think LV would be too choosy over the age of his DE, the younger the better imo. Cheers Mandy. From doliesl at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 16:49:38 2004 From: doliesl at yahoo.com (doliesl) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 16:49:38 -0000 Subject: Lupin more important (JKR quote)? Re: Think on This...... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105080 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "smartone564" wrote: > And I can't forget Lupin.... but I believe his part will be obvious > when it comes, particularly since JKR said his role would be > larger. Therefore, I don't think he should really get one of the > three. Alight, I've seen this "JKR said Lupin's role will be larger/or more important in future books" being cited too many times here. Especially when people were so dependent on it as to back up their theories and speculations. So can anyone link or post the actual source? I don't remember ever reading any quote like this. The only quote I remember was JKR mentioning Lupin will be back at Book 5. However I do remember someone asked about the validity of this JKR's quote on Lupin on Sugar Quill, and it was pointed out as being non-existence or misquote (but being falsely pass through among fans). I will only believe this when I see the actual source. D. From doliesl at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 16:59:45 2004 From: doliesl at yahoo.com (doliesl) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 16:59:45 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105081 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "koinonia02" wrote: > "K": > > Ah, it's that quote again. ^-^ This is the interview people use to > show Snape will fall in love in book 7 and/or that he will be > redeemed. You must go back to that interview and read again. Some > important information was left out that Carol quoted. Let me also > say that the last time I quoted this interview, I was told that one > should hear the audio version so you might want to find it and > listen for yourself. Yeah ti's that quote again ;) I think If you were to pick apart the quote and want to use it as, you should listen to the audio version for more precise tone and expression JKR used. The transcripts from Quick Quote are not 100% accurate. Here's a more accurate version: Lydon:What about Snape? JKR:Snape is a very sadistic teacher, loosely based on a teacher I myself had, I have to say. I think children are very aware and we are kidding ourselves if we don't think that they are, that teachers do sometimes abuse their power and this particular teacher does abuse his power. He's not a particularly pleasant person at all. However, everyone should keep their eye on Snape, I'll just say that because there is more to him than meets the eye and you will find out part of what I am talking about if you read Book 4. No, I'm not trying to drum up more sales, go to the library and get it out. I'd rather people read it. Lydon: Er - one of our connec- ... one of our internet correspondents wondered if Snape is going to fall in love? JKR: Yeah~~~ (giggling) Who on earth would want Snape in love with them, that is a very horrible idea. Erm ... Lydon: But you'd get an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape JKR: It is, isn't it... I got ...There's so much I wish I could say to you, and I can't because it'd ruin ... I promise you ... whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that I'm - I'm slightly stunned that you've said that - erm - and you'll find out why I'm so stunned if you read book 7. And that's all I'm going to say. Lydon: Mmmm - this is - this is encouraging. > "K": > Here is a list of all the interviews with JKR where she mentions > Snape. It's possible there are some I have missed. Great list btw. Here's one you missed: June 2003 Newsweek Web Exclusive Q:Do you have favorite characters? JKR: I really like Snape. I mean, I wouldn't want to have a dinner with him, but as a character he's great because he's complicated and quite nasty. I love Dumbledore. I love Hagrid. I really like Sirius because he's a troubled adult and there may be a slight dearth in some children's literature of adult characters who are allowed to be complex or have problems. It's hard actually to name the characters I don't like. Because if I didn't like a character as a character I just wouldn't use them. D. From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Thu Jul 8 14:33:13 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 8 Jul 2004 14:33:13 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore, Percy and others Message-ID: <20040708143313.27308.qmail@webmail30.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105082 >> From: "Kate" >> Something that I don't >> understand personally is why 3 second year students could work out >> where the Chamber of Secrets is in the 2nd book when all the >> professors together didn't know where it was. Does anyone else find >> this a little tough to accept? Amey now: About finding CoS, I think Parseltounge plays a large role in it. There are only 2 remaining parseltongues around, right? >> Del replies : >> I posted some time ago to defend Percy, saying that he's only a true >> Weasley, and not evil or a traitor (post number 97645). >> Percy did not abandon his family. He distanced himself from people who >> were accusing him of being a blind, stupid pawn, while not giving him >> any proof of it. He was protecting himself, just like I would if >> somebody said nasty things to me for no obvious reason. >> Percy did not slander Harry, he tried to protect Ron. As far as he >> knew, Harry was indeed a liar. Amey: How come he knew Harry to be liar? He gave Harry full marks in the second task during TWT, he was living with Harry for at least part of 2 summers and also, his brother is Harry's best friend. Despite all this, he knows Harry is a liar. How? Also, during Harry's trial and in Dumbledore's office, he doesn't come up as a person who is protecting himself. He comes as a person who is ready to do anything for his ambition. Maybe he is not cunning enough to be in Slytherin. His actions are not of a person who hates to be a pawn. In fact, I am sure he was given the position to be a pawn between Fudge and Dumbledore. One more thought on this, in GoF the trio are thinking whether Percy will give up a family member like Crouch Sr, in OoTP we find him leaving family. Nice clue that (I am think this might have been discussed earlier, but still I thought this). >> "K": >> Good find! I just hope it's not Percy. Yet he was snooping around quite a bit in CoS. Amey: I wonder if he was with Penelope in the scene you mention? >> Carol: >> Dudley hardly fits the description "late in life." He'll be all of >> seventeen at the end of Book 7 (if he survives). Even Petunia, who is >> probably not much older than Lily would be, is no older than, say, >> 45--a late-bloomer, certainly, if she performs magic now, but >> certainly not "late in life." Amey here: 16 years old is "late in life" compared to normal WW. I mean, we have seen small children doing some magin during WorldCup right? And I remember reading that JKR said "late in life from wizarding standards".(I don't think I remember correctly, so will be glad to hear the exact quote). >> June : >> .K. has done a great job of including all kinds of people in her novels. I dispise the entire notion of political correctness, because it breeds only a superficial and >> false tolerance. As to Siggy the Fraud, I rest my case. June >> Katie now: >> The bit that gets me most is the line in the Pensieve scene about >> Sirius watching James, entirely unaware of an admiring girl. >> In "Snape's Worst Memory", *every* little line seems to have some >> significance, as others have pointed out. Can't think of another good >> reason why she'd write that line in :) Amey : I am entirely with you June on this point. I mean, the entire point of WW is that it's not your abilities (or diabilities or any other things like being werewolf) count but what you decide to do with them that counts? Here we see the greatness of Dumbledore. And also hasn't JKR said that she uses Dumbledore to convey truth? Isn't it the truth that after all the discussions about political correctness and all, it all depends on the person to be a good human (even if he is werewolf, or half-giant). So what I think is that JKR is giving us all a message that all these things don't come anywhere in WW. As for the pensieve scene, we see that Sirius is attractive to girls, but he is not interested in them, this does not mean he is gay. I mean, Harry gets impression there that James would do anything to please Sirius, does not mean he is also gay. >> Barbara >> Then again. . .does DD even know about all the various >> passageways and entrances that are shown on the MM? Amey: Remember him giving hint about Room of Requirements to Harry in GoF? I am sure he knows more about Hogwarts than he lets us know. >> From: "Jen Reese" >> Subject: How does a Wizard becoming 'untraceable'? >> According to the FAQ on JKR's website, a witch or wizard can become >> untraceable just like a building can be unplottable. >> Any ideas? It must tie in with Dumbledore in PS, when he said there >> are other ways to become invisible besides using an Invisibility >> cloak. Amey: Just one question here, would the untracable wizard be visible on the Map? Because if he does, the spell is not perfect (or the Map is too powerful) and if he doesn't, then it's a serious thing not to use it for safety, as Harry is prone to do. Signing off, Amey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dzeytoun at cox.net Thu Jul 8 14:39:18 2004 From: dzeytoun at cox.net (dzeytoun at cox.net) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 10:39:18 -0400 Subject: Harry as bait? (was re: Harry's Support) Message-ID: <20040708143917.JTVE25349.lakermmtao11.cox.net@smtp.east.cox.net> No: HPFGUIDX 105083 Del said: "I don't think you understood the full extent of my explanation as to why Harry was left alone. The Order was trying to determine LV's intentions. So they left Harry very visibly alone as a *bait*. Any DE who might have been sent to check on Harry must never see Harry with another wizard. And if you think a simple wall can block the view, think of Mad-Eye Moody's eye again. And I'd like to point that this plan worked very well indeed, even if it was not LV who ate the bait. I'm sure Umbridge sent spies to Little Whinging before she sent the Dementors. If she'd seen Harry with other wizards, it could have spelled troubles for the Order." Interesting theory, but I think it goes WAY past the line. First of all, it assumes that Dumbledore was either partially or totally lying when he explained Harry's isolation. He may have been, but I don't think we have any evidence for it at all, and it would be very much against his character as presented. It also assumes that key members of the Order would have acted completely out of character in consenting to such a strategy (thinking particularly of Sirius, Remus, and Molly). Del's point about the fact that it is nobody's JOB to take care of Harry up to OOTP is good up to a point. However, the Weasley's still seem to be out of character on this issue in OOTP, and it certainly IS Sirius' job (albeit one he can't be expected to be very good at it, considering he's spent years in Azkaban or on the run). I tend to agree with Steve that the lack of support for Harry in the wake of Cedric's death is reprehensible. However busy I was, I do think I would bother to remember that the kid has just seen one of his classmates murdered and is probably a little freaked about that. Whether he would have responded to attempts to help is a different issue. However, when all is said and done I think we can't really blame the characters for acting like a bunch of low-grade magical morons (which is really the way they are acting on this issue, up to and including McGonagall's response to Harry when he complains about Umbridge giving him detention). This whole thing strikes me as a plot device, and a rather clumsy one at that. The storyline of OOTP depended on Harry being stressed out, and if the adults had been acting as if they had any common sense that would have been more difficult. As to why no one was assigned to live with Harry for protection, it also falls under "plot device." Although it is possible - even likely - that there is more to the "pact" with Petunia than we know. Maybe part of the deal to keep Harry was that precisely that kind of thing (wizards invading the home to stay) would not happen. Dzeytoun From melaniertay at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 15:59:33 2004 From: melaniertay at yahoo.com (Mel) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 15:59:33 -0000 Subject: Defending Percy ( was Percy Weasley ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105084 I think my messages may be still being monitored so I apologize if this was too late to make sense. >> Del replies : > Where are the proofs that LV is indeed back ? DD is going around > saying Harry saw him, but giving no proof whatsoever. There are no > sign of dark activity, everything is just as usual. The only one > creating trouble is DD himself. And yet his parents ask Percy to > believe DD. I ask again : why should he ? Yes Percy respected DD, but > he also respects Fudge. When asked to make a choice, he goes with the > one that looks sane and logical and who's not trying to create a > general panic with no proof to back his allegations. I see nothing > wrong with that. Cedric's dead body? That was a big piece of evidence and I was rather disappointed that it wasn't said how his death of the AK was explained by the Ministry as "a horrible accident". Also, both McGonagall and Snape heard Barty Crouch's confession, so it wasn't just the word of DD and Harry. On top of that there was Fudge's 180 degree turn around regarding Harry. At least a little suspicous. Not to mention if DD was going senile, wouldn't the ministry not "go around "making his name mud", but try to get him to a Doctor? Also suspicous to me. Additionally, we have the disappearence of that witch (the one Wormtail caught I've forgotten her name), Karkaroff running off on his class, Crouch Senior's disappearence and ultimate death. Then we have the word of his family, which one would think he believes somewhat intelligent. Either way, there wasn't a "smoking gun", but there was a lot of strange unexplained occurences that at least should ahve made Percy think twice, unless he's just the stupidest person on the planet (which is difficult to believe; he was headboy) > Del replies : > How is believing that LV is back "right" ? How is defending one's > governing body "wrong" ? In a democratic society defending one's governing body without proof (in either direction) is unwise and unpatriotic. LV was in fact back that's how it was right. The government "sweeping it under the rug" (see evidence above) was wrong. Percy should have kept an open mind, gathered information on his own, and then made a decision. It's the only patriotic thing to do. Did he think that Cedric Diggory dropped dead of his own accord? Really? Did he speek to Amos Diggory about it? Did he speak to McGonagall or Snape? Did he do anything, but kiss Fudge's feet? > > > Percy back to the fold : Arthur. It's Arthur who insulted Percy, yet > he doesn't seem to be willing to make any reconciliation effort. If > Arthur, the adult, is allowed to act so childish, then why should > Percy know any better ? The last post you were saying Percy was an adult. I agree, therefore his behavior is his own responsiblity not Arthur's. Also it wasn't Arthur that insulted Percy, it was Percy that insulted Arthur. Percy stated he had to struggle against his Dad's "lousy reputation" and they've always been poor because of his lack of ambition, etc. Percy completely disrespected his father and left the house, how is it childish that Arthur doesn't run after him? Percy either comes back or he doesn't, but I don't think Arthur should go after him. He's an adult. From kandbmom at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 16:25:19 2004 From: kandbmom at yahoo.com (kandbmom) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 16:25:19 -0000 Subject: Neville and other questions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105085 I have been reading all the posts and have a few theories on some of them. Neville and Snape- What if Snape was the other person to hear the prophecy with Dumbledore? He would know that Neville could have been the one to kill LV. Snape- I also believe that he is playing both sides either for the good of the Order or tricking Dumbledore. I think that in the GOF that Snape was "the next man" standing next to the space that should have be filled by the LaStranges. JKR doesn't say who this man is but does make him important by pointing him out. I think Snape also was one one the DEs performing muggle torture at the Quidditch Cup. He was torture the same way by James with his robes over his head and his grey undies showing. Death of the Potters- I believe that LV was not alone when he killed the Potters. JKR never tells who all is with him. He is always accompanied by DE so it would be good to assume that he is here also. I think the LeStranges were there and some that we don't know are DE yet. One theory is Rita Skeeter- she called Hermione a "Silly Girl" in GOF and that is what Harry hears being said to his Mother. It is never said that LV said "Stand Aside, Silly Girl" only that Harry hears it being said. Only theories I would enjoy any comments! kandbmom From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 8 17:26:48 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 17:26:48 -0000 Subject: Hogsmeade: Sixth Year? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105086 Pandrea: > Now that Sirius is dead, will the permission slip he signed for > Harry to go to Hogsmeade still stand? Gina: > At 17 wouldn't he be considered of age? You can apparate at 17 > right? If that is the case I would say that he would no longer need > a permission slip to go into Hogsmeade. Only problem is...Harry will only be turning *16* going into his 6th year. SSSusan From sixsunflowers at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 16:29:27 2004 From: sixsunflowers at yahoo.com (Bill and Diana Sowers) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 16:29:27 -0000 Subject: Defending Percy ( was Percy Weasley ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105087 Del wrote: > Molly is the only one whom we know has tried to talk to Percy, and we > don't even have the details of that episode. Molly is not the > diplomatic kind, I can see her screwing that up very easily. Of all the Weasley children I think Percy is most like his mother... at times blindly faithful, at others ranting about "correct behavior." There is an internal logic working in Percy that reflects his family background and his age. As others have pointed out he has removed himself from his family and surrounded himself with people opposed to what his family believes to be the truth. But he still has that fierce loyalty learned at home... transferred to a new "family." Going back to my younger years this reminds me of the War in Vietnam and its effects on the American people. We were getting mixed messages from various sources and it was hard to believe the "truth" (Which more often than not is as easily attanied as the snitch in quidditch). Who was one to believe? Percy has sided with the "administration." In doing so he has advanced through the ranks quickly which has bolstered his beliefs. To him he must be on the right track. As was also pointed out Percy is now a young man (18/19). Like most of us at this age he is coming into his own and questioning his parents' beliefs. To a degree so are his younger brothers, Fred and George. They've dropped out of school and started a business. The same could be said, to a lesser degree, of Bill Weasley with his long hair and fang earring... something which irritates his mother. Most people separate themselves from their parents in some way about this age (or earlier/later). Rowling has given us a look at family dynamics in the Weasley's that plays out more or less all around the world. I wonder where Percy sits now... at the end of Book 5... What must be going through his mind?.... probably one mixed up guy. > And there's one person whom we see making pointedly no effort to bring > Percy back to the fold : Arthur. It's Arthur who insulted Percy, yet > he doesn't seem to be willing to make any reconciliation effort. If > Arthur, the adult, is allowed to act so childish, then why should > Percy know any better ? It is not an easy thing to let go of your children... allow them to grow up. My wife and I have done it two times and are currently going through it a third time (18 year old). Sometimes our children take turns in life that are diametrically opposed to the things we have taught them. It's an easy thing to speak of reconciliation/"mature behavior" but much more difficult to act upon it. Usually, in the best of situations, a few years of struggling through feelings (Yelling, not speaking to each other, etc), compromising, accepting the fact that we must love each other no matter what our differing beliefs, must take place. Arthur and Percy, in Book 5, have just started out on this difficult road. It's a shame that in some instances the coming together again never happens. I wonder where Rowling will take this? I understand Arthur's anger. I can understand young Percy's rigid support of what he believes to be true. And Molly, the mother torn between her love for both is an eternal theme. I am forever amazed at how well Rowling presents these different age/familial characteristics. Bill From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Thu Jul 8 17:22:19 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 8 Jul 2004 17:22:19 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Sirius Message-ID: <20040708172219.1006.qmail@webmail9.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105088 >> Paul: >> My friend you are right. Something is wrong with DD in general. I am >> sure that he is hiding a lot more than that he divulged to HP at the >> end of OOTP. If I were HP I wouldn't >> trust DD so easily. >> Del: >> At the >> end of GoF, when DD is giving out his orders to various people, he >> doesn't give them any sentimental support speech first. It's just "you >> go there, you do that". The only one he's worried about is Snape, but >> even then DD doesn't go emotional. Amey: Sorry Paul for snipping your lines about everyone having his/her own agenda. It is at least sure in case of Dumbledore. Del, that scene reminds me of Sherlock Holmes (sorry for parallel literature, but he is one of my favourites). He never tells anybody his plan till last. And that is bcause he is afraid that many people knowing might ruin it, because people are not as logically thinking as he, that is to say they don't see the outcomes he does. I see Dumbledore working under same premise here. There is no time to explain, also what he has always seen coming has finally materialized (and he is quick to take command). All this shows me what a great General he is. Never letting down the guard even when the enemy is down, always believing in people and their abilities, never surprised by anything, and taking command the second danger beckons. He never shows his leadership overtly till the time it is necessary, but when it is needed, he expects (and gets in case of rational people) total obedience. Oh yes, almost forgot one thing, admitting his mistakes. hats off to Dumbledore. I would advice harry to closely follow Dumbledore's words and keep faith (not blind) in him. ? >> Del replies : >> Sirius chose to have Peter be Secret Keeper rather than himself. >> Sirius chose to track down Peter on his own rather than tell the story >> and gather help (and how did he find Peter anyway ?) >> Del replies : >> Because Sirius sent Snape to the Shack, and James risked his own life >> to get Snape back from the Shack in time. Sirius sent Snape to his >> death, James saved Snape's life at the potential price of his own life. Amey here: For those choices, he took the responsibility and was sorry for his wrong choices. He says so in Shack. As for his tracking Peter on his own, he couldn't have done anything else without Peter's confession. (Read my post about this, "Some serious thoughts about Sirius". I have alraedy given full description about that, if I repeat it here, list elves will kill me :)). Also, some quotes from OoT, "Snape's Worst Memory": Snape reacted so fast it was as though he had been expecting an attack: dropping his bag, he plunged his hand inside his robes and his wand was halfway into the air when James shouted, 'Expelliarmus!' But too late; Snape had directed his wand straight at James; there was a flash of light and a gash appeared on the side of James's face, spattering his robes with blood. James whirled about: a second flash of light later, Snape was hanging upside-down in the air, his robes falling over his head to reveal skinny, pallid legs and a pair of greying underpants. 'Certainly,' said James and he jerked his wand upwards; Snape fell into a crumpled heap on the ground. Disentangling himself from his robes he got quickly to his feet, wand up, but Sirius said, 'Petrificus Totalus!' and Snape keeled over again, rigid as a board. Ok, I accept I have left the part about Sirius and James both attacking Snivellus, but doesn't this show you that Snape was equally, in fact more ready to hurt them. He took out his wand first, it was he who caused any bodily harm, (note other spells don't cause any hurt other than what you will get if you fall on ground). Ok, James' spell was a torture, but not Sirius. I wonder if Snape had Sirius set up to go to Shack, he would have moved a finger to save him. And we are not entirely sure what Sirius was doing when James saved Snape. Remember in PoA, Snape was arguing for Dementors to kiss Sirius, which I am sure is more horrible than death. That brings me again to the same question, give me one example of Sirius being a bully, a risk to himself and others, all together, a dangerous person? (and please don't give me his seeting up Snape). Also one more point I would like to add here, how objective is penceive? (I know, this has been discussed many times, but we don't have any canon of it's level of subjectivity or objectivity) I think tagging of Sirius as "Prisoner" has left him branded for life and now he is no longer alive, he cannot even redeem himself. Amey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pcaehill2 at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 8 13:11:17 2004 From: pcaehill2 at sbcglobal.net (pcaehill2) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 13:11:17 -0000 Subject: Harry's glasses (was Re: Foreshadowing for books 6 & 7- PoA DVD on the way!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105089 Del wrote: > Del, who wonders why JKR made Harry wear glasses, if they don't cause him any trouble. Pam: ...wonders why (at least adult) wizards wear glasses at all! I mean, if they can regrow bones, can't they repair myopia? Or maybe James' glasses actually have special powers, like Moody's eye? Pam (Jumping off the deep end for fun!) From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Thu Jul 8 17:29:16 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 17:29:16 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105090 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "doliesl" wrote: > Yeah ti's that quote again ;) I think If you were to pick apart the > quote and want to use it as, you should listen to the audio version > for more precise tone and expression JKR used. The transcripts from > Quick Quote are not 100% accurate. Here's a more accurate version: *snip* (see Message 105081 for complete quote) > Lydon: Er - one of our connec- ... one of our internet correspondents > wondered if Snape is going to fall in love? > > JKR: Yeah~~~ (giggling) Who on earth would want Snape in love with > them, that is a very horrible idea. Erm ... > > Lydon: But you'd get an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape > > JKR: It is, isn't it... I got ...There's so much I wish I could say to > you, and I can't because it'd ruin ... I promise you ... whoever asked > that question, can I just say to you that I'm - I'm slightly stunned > that you've said that - erm - and you'll find out why I'm so stunned > if you read book 7. And that's all I'm going to say. > > Lydon: Mmmm - this is - this is encouraging. "K": But regardless of the intonation, JKR still goes back to the original question of love. Still, thanks for that interpretation. I'll add it to the one I already have. D: >Here's one you missed: > > June 2003 Newsweek Web Exclusive > > Q:Do you have favorite characters? > > JKR: I really like Snape. I mean, I wouldn't want to have a dinner > with him, but as a character he's great because he's complicated and > quite nasty. I love Dumbledore. I love Hagrid. I really like Sirius > because he's a troubled adult and there may be a slight dearth in some > children's literature of adult characters who are allowed to be > complex or have problems. It's hard actually to name the characters I > don't like. Because if I didn't like a character as a character I just > wouldn't use them. "K": Thanks so much. I'm trying to get all the Snape interviews. Not that I'm addicted to him or anything... ;-) From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Thu Jul 8 14:14:04 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 14:14:04 -0000 Subject: Snape's mission Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105091 Am I the only one who thinks that it's a possibility that Snape's mission was NOT to infiltrate the DEs? I am certain that LV would know that Snape's switched to the light side. I know that there are arguements against this, mainly that he could say that he was just biding his time like Lucius. I do feel though that working for/with the MoM and working for DD are two completely different things. I think that if I was LV I'd be VERY suspicious of Snape. If all he could do was teach then why didn't he get a job at Durmstrang? There was nothing to keep him to Britain - that we know of. (That's from LV's pov). I don't know what else his mission could be but I just find it incredible that he'd be able to just re join the DEs without getting himself killed! Just an idea. It also seems FAR too obvious to me, as everyone seems to just be assuming that's what he's been doing. JKR doesn't very often go with the obvious. What do you all think? Aggie From marnyhelfrich at comcast.net Thu Jul 8 10:41:46 2004 From: marnyhelfrich at comcast.net (Marny Helfrich) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 06:41:46 -0400 Subject: Homosexuality in HP (was Re: Ringdear of the Marauders: Sirius or James?) References: Message-ID: <087d01c464d8$2acf9fe0$8e2f8c45@mynewputer> No: HPFGUIDX 105092 Sad1199: > Why should there be any homosexual relationships in the book at all? > Unless HP is gay, there is no reason to have any kind of homosexual > relationship anywhere else. I mean, if Sirius was gay (I say not!) > how would that affect the end of the series? JKR does not seem the > type to have unnecessary relationships and/or characters in her > books, so why bother? > Why should there be any heterosexual relationships? How does Harry/Cho or Ginny/Michael Corner/Dean affect the end of the series? Love relationships are part of the human (and apparently Wizard) condition, and while the books are primarily about the plot, they are also about the characters and their development. Romantic relationships are an important part of that. Moreover, JKR has made a deliberate point to show the diversity of the Wizarding world. How does it affect the end of the series that Dean and Lee are Black, Cho Asian, Parvati and Padma Indian (or Pakistani, maybe), etc.? Why shouldn't sexual orientation also be part of this variety? :) Marny From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jul 8 17:43:58 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 17:43:58 -0000 Subject: Snape's mission In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105093 Aggie wrote: > Am I the only one who thinks that it's a possibility that Snape's > mission was NOT to infiltrate the DEs? > Potioncat: Well, I would agree with you sort of, the problem is I can't think of anything else either. And the double-agent gang have come up with some very strong arguements. Serius' remark about Snape being Malfoy's lapdog makes me think there is some contact between Snape and Malfoy separate from Hogwarts. And there is the quote from Occlumency lessons where he agrees with Harry that it is his job to find out what DEs are up to Now, I know both can be taken several ways, particularly since this group can take anything several different ways. (including "no" or "yes") ;-) I do think there will be some unexpected twist to whatever it is he is doing and it most likely be exactly what we think it is. (Whatever that is.) Potioncat From rapierpen at hotmail.com Thu Jul 8 16:01:50 2004 From: rapierpen at hotmail.com (Robert Henderson) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 16:01:50 -0000 Subject: The Dursleys Wake Up to Something Wicked (Book 5) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105094 Although I've been a HPFG member for about 2 years, I haven't posted before (except for a query to Peg Kerr regarding her essay on the 7 Deadly Sins). I hope that I'm following protocol by sharing this poem and essay here. something wicked, inc. from the hand of its maker it slips with no mark descends through the skin where it peers in the dark utters a curse without saying a word to make in soft places a nest good and hard it eases through veins aimed for the heart creeps on the pulse with the stealth of a shark cunning (like cancer), taking angles (like aids) cloaked like a friend to prize open the gates feeling with fingers like soft drops of rain it gropes its way forward, stops now, and then lengthens its shadow and steals its way in eclipsing the light ever-watchful for Sin. claim not, o sinner, you can't see It come. remember the prickling in your thumb. Copyright 2004 Robert Henderson In "Order of the Phoenix," although Rowling specifically names one group the "advance guard" (the title of chapter 3) the book begins with the appearance of two advance guards, one dispatched by the shadow, one by the light. It begins with an emphatic demand that Harry tell the truth. Because we sympathize, perhaps for the first time, with the Dursleys as parents who are distraught (crazy with fear, the root of the word is "stretched") over an unexplained attack on their son, the bizarreness of their insistence on truth fails to register: "DUDLEY!" roared Uncle Vernon. "I want to know exactly what happened to my son!" "FINE!" yelled Harry, and in his temper, red and gold sparks shot out of the end of his wand, still clutched in his hand. All three Dursleys flinched, looking terrified. "Dudley and I were in the alleyway between Magnolia Crescent and Wisteria Walk," said Harry, speaking fast, fighting to control his temper. "Dudley thought he'd be smart with me, I pulled out my wand but didn't use it. Then two dementors showed up?" "But what ARE dementoids?" asked Uncle Vernon furiously. "What do they DO?" "I told you?they suck all the happiness out of you," said Harry, "and if they get the chance, they kiss you?" "Kiss you?" said Uncle Vernon, his eyes popping slightly. "Kiss you?" "It's what they call it when they suck the soul out of your mouth." Aunt Petunia uttered a soft scream. "His soul? They didn't take?he's still got his?" "Of course they didn't get his soul, you'd know if they had, said Harry, exasperated. (OoP, p. 34) What are dementoids? What do they do? The dementors are not merely the manifestations of clinical depression; that's a red herring, a facile explanation that satisfies the curious so Rowling can get on with her work. The dementors are darkness, sin, incarnate (incorporated), made manifest within the body. Our being created in the image of God makes our spiritual life depend on listening to the Holy Spirit, facing the truth in ourselves, and following that truth no matter what it demands of us. This means that "It is death to the soul to become unconscious. People die before there is death to the body, because there is death in the soul. They are mask-like leeches, walking about like spectres, dead but sucking . . . You can succeed in going away from your problems, you need only to look away from them long enough. You may escape, but it is the death of the soul." from C.G. Jung's "Dream Analysis," p. 90. Voldemort's flight from the Holy Spirit is from the darkness of physical death. His wand, the will he works in the world, leaves a distinct mark. The Dursley's flight is more insidious; they do whatever they can to conduct business as usual, which is to avoid the darkness within themselves, the shadow. Like Voldemort's, the Dursleys' wand does its work, transforming themselves and their son, leaving no mark. Both the Dark Lord and the dark Dursleys consistently choose to dwell in darkness and to avoid the voice of the truth, the freedom and light made available to us by means of our growth in consciousness--thus giving us greater conscious control over our choices--when we do the work asked of us by the Holy Spirit. The appearance of Voldemort's advance guard, dispatched there by a grievous shadow (the meaning of the name Dolores Umbridge), comes upon the Dursleys like a nightmare because that is what it is, a warning in the night from the unconscious, uttered by God in hope of awakening the soul in time for it to escape from danger. In the Old Testament book of Genesis, it was because Cain chose to ignore this voice that we began murdering our brothers, not lighting a candle but cursing our brothers for "their" darkness. We cannot claim we did not see murder come. We felt it as it first stirred in a dream, a fantasy, in our hand, in the prickling of our thumb. Robert "Rapierpen" Henderson maintains a web site called The Classrooms of Hogwarts that was started on May 14, 2001, to continue discussion from the Barnes & Noble Online course "Teaching Children Literature Using Harry Potter" and to serve as a MATRIX for his book (in the works) on restoring the practical and spiritual foundations of children's safety. From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Thu Jul 8 17:53:08 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:53:08 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Homosexuality in HP (was Re: Ringdear of the Marauders: Sirius or James?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105095 Why shouldn't sexual orientation also be part of this variety? :) Marny Gina: Maybe because it is a series enjoyed by young children and not just adults. Gina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Thu Jul 8 17:47:49 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 8 Jul 2004 17:47:49 -0000 Subject: Percy Weasly Message-ID: <20040708174749.29434.qmail@webmail6.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105096 >> Del replies : >> As a matter of fact, Percy *did* have a proof, albeit an indirect one >> : LV was nowhere to be seen. If a friend told you they've seen John >> Lennon but nobody else confirmed that and everybody called your friend >> delusional for claiming he's seen Lennon, who would you believe ? >> In fact, Percy does *not* have befuddled values at all, quite the >> contrary ! He's got very clear values, and he sticks to them very >> stricly. And they are not even bad values : he believes that hard work >> brings success and that you should respect those in power. What's >> wrong with that ?? >> Thanks, but you should thank Ron and the Twins. They are the ones who >> got on my nerves, by repeating ad nauseam that Percy is a git. What >> kind of brotherly love is that ?? >> >> Fudge knew what he >> was doing when he refused to follow DD, but Percy and the rest of the >> WW don't know that. Percy hasn't met neither Harry nor DD since LV's >> return, he wasn't there at the parting of the ways. He's aked to >> follow Harry, DD and his parents *blindly*, even when *everything* >> points to the fact that they are crack-heads having collective >> hallucinations ! What's so wrong in refusing to do that ?? Amey: Percy didn't have any proof. Lack of proof is never same as absence of proof, and not at all close to absence of the original happening. (Holmes would be proud of me). Also, he decided to believe his superior with whom he is working for 1 year more than his parents, at least 2 brothers (elder ones, not considering others), Harry, with whom he was for 4 year, and Dumbledore, who is (nobody argues) The Greatest Wizard of the century. What does this tell about him? In the least, that he cannot judge people properly. Also working hard for success is not at all bad. But respecting people only because they are in power is not at all good. People should be respected because they deserve it, not just because they are in power. As for brotherly love, what happened to his parent love? Brotherly love? If he had brotherly love, he would never have left them, he could have tried reasoning. (Not advicing like the letter he sent). he was never asked to follow Dumbledore blindly. In fact, he followed Fudge and MoM blindly. What kind of son/brother he is if he cannot follow his parents and other family members and decided to follow some stranger? Only one quote comes to mind... Ron saying when Percy scolds him for getting into Myrtle's bathroom, "You are not worried for me, you are only worried because I will ruin your chances of being HeadBoy".(sorry, not exact words). He took points off Ron there, which is not a act of a brother. In my mind, Percy will always be "HeadBoy", "Prefect" or "Assistant", he will never be "Percy". >> Del replies : >> When asked to make a choice, he goes with the >> one that looks sane and logical and who's not trying to create a >> general panic with no proof to back his allegations. I see nothing >> wrong with that. >> Del replies : >> DD is considered by the Ministry like a traitor to the nation, and >> Harry like a liar. So yes Percy is encouraging Ron to get with the >> right people : the ones who are apparently sane and patriotic. Amey: He is not encouraging Ron with to get with the right people : the ones who are apparently sane and patriotic, he is telling him to get up with "people who count". There is a huge difference in these two things. I accept Dumbledore and Harry had no proof, but why should he create panic? Just to make people respect him more? Does that make sense to you after seeing Dumbledore for 5 years? Remember Percy has seen him for 7 years (and thinking that Weaslys are friends with Dumbledore), more than 7 years surely. He accpepts Fudge's theory that Dumbledore is "losing his marbles" and trying to take over MoM when Fudge has even less proof of that than LV's return. (Harry at least had Cedric's body and Crouch Jr, though Fudge didn't and can't listen to them). Sherry now And in CoS, he was shaken and white and drawn--can't remember the exact words--over Ginny being taken to the chamber. I am still believing that there is hope for Percy. I'm not ready to give up on him. i've seen flashes of great love and loyalty to his family in him, and I'm expecting something to happen to bring him back. Amey: Yes, there is some hope for him, but still of he goes on his current route, he is next Crouch Sr (Remember what Ron says about him in PoA, he is really ambitious. That is really *great* comment coming from his brother). Amey, hoping Percy sees what is good, not what is good for him From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Thu Jul 8 18:12:00 2004 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 18:12:00 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:Half Blood or Part Blood (was: How Rare are Muggle-borns?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105097 >What would a child born to Hermione Granger and Prince William be >called? "Your Royal Highness," I believe. :) Would it be a half blood? Or would it be a muggle-born, >simply because Hermione is discriminated against? I think it would be a halfblood, because it has one muggle parent and one wizard parent. The way I think it works is: A pureblood is someone who has no (known) muggle ancestry. A halfblood is someone with wizard ancestry *and* muggle ancestry, like the boy (Seamus?) with one wizard parent and one muggle parent, or like Harry, with one wizard parent and one muggle-born parent. A muggle-born is someone with two muggle parents, like Hermione Granger and Lily Evans Weasley. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ From dk59us at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 18:26:34 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 18:26:34 -0000 Subject: Hogsmeade: Sixth Year? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105098 Pandrea wrote: > Now that Sirius is dead, will the permission slip he signed for Harry > to go to Hogsmeade still stand? I can't really see the teachers > being mean enough to take permission away from Harry, it would be > crushingly tactless, but technically it should no longer apply. > Usually for these things parents have to give renewed permission > every school year. Well, I don't suppose the issue will even arise, > but I think this might bug me a little if we see him going off to > Hogsmeade as usual. Eustace_Scrubb: As far as we know, Harry only got the one permission slip from Sirius, didn't he? So it seems that the permission need not be renewed year to year. It was kind of dodgy in the first place, being that Sirius was Harry's godfather but never his guardian. So if it was good enough for the Hogwarts faculty originally, I doubt they'll require him to get the Dursley's permission in writing. However, I continue to wonder whether the beginning of more open war between the Death Eaters and the Order (probably allied with the Ministry under Fudge's successor)might lead to suspension of Hogsmeade visits for everyone, for the duration. Not that someone might not end up going to Hogsmeade anyway, using the passage to Honeydukes. Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From dk59us at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 18:32:23 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 18:32:23 -0000 Subject: Hogsmeade: Sixth Year? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105099 Pandrea wrote: > Now that Sirius is dead, will the permission slip he signed for Harry > to go to Hogsmeade still stand? Then Gina added: > At 17 wouldn't he be considered of age? You can apparate at 17 right? > If that is the case I would say that he would no longer need a > permission slip to go into Hogsmeade. > gina Now Eustace_Scrubb: Well, I'm not sure being "of age" would be enough. After all, the permission slip is a school rule, not a law. I think that as long as one is a student attending Hogwarts, going off campus would be governed by school rules. A 17 year old in the WW may have every right to go to Hogsmeade without a permission slip, but _not_ if they wish to remain a Hogwarts student. Just my 2 cents, Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From mommystery at hotmail.com Thu Jul 8 18:40:48 2004 From: mommystery at hotmail.com (mommystery2003) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 18:40:48 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and Sirius In-Reply-To: <20040708172219.1006.qmail@webmail9.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105100 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amey Chinchorkar" > > Also, some quotes from OoT, "Snape's Worst Memory": > Snape reacted so fast it was as though he had been expecting an attack: dropping his bag, he plunged his hand inside his robes and his wand was halfway into the air when James shouted, 'Expelliarmus!' I read that to mean that both James and Sirius had already attacked Snape in the past and he was almost always prepared now. Two against one certainly shows (to me at least)who are the real cowards and bullies here. We don't know yet, and might never know, what those three did to each other during school, but we can be sure that James and Sirius are not the golden boys that Harry wants them to be. They were troublemakers in the true sense of the word. > That brings me again to the same question, give me one example of Sirius being a bully, a risk to himself and others, all together, a dangerous person? (and please don't give me his seeting up Snape). Sirius was a risk to himself at Grimmauld Place - he was sitting around with little to do, apparently feeling sorry for himself, which is a very dangerous thing to do and can lead to impulsive acts...such as running off to the Ministry, instead of staying put like he was supposed to. Instead he rushes off to save Harry, who himself doesn't think ahead and gets Sirius in trouble. While Sirius's death can only be blamed on one person, Bellatrix, the events leading up to it can be blamed on the risks he took when he knew better. As for him being a bully, just look at what him and James were doing. Isn't that being a bully? Ganging up on one person? How about the Shrieking Shack incident? That was dangerous not only to Snape, but potentially lethal to Lupin as well, who, at the very least could have been sent to Azkaban if he had killed Snape. > Also one more point I would like to add here, how objective is penceive? (I know, this has been discussed many times, but we don't have any canon of it's level of subjectivity or objectivity) I think a pensieve is objective - it seems to show events as they happened, without editing. It's a memory of that person's version of what happened. Ces From musicofsilence at hotmail.com Thu Jul 8 18:51:34 2004 From: musicofsilence at hotmail.com (lifeavantgarde) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 18:51:34 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105101 Stefanie writes: YAY! Someone as interview-nuts as me! I did the same thing with both Snape and Lupin to try and glean evidence of a not ese!Lupin Xo) Go crazy Potterheads! > "K": > HOST: What about Snape? > JKR: Snape is a very sadistic teacher, loosely based on a teacher I > myself had, I have to say. I think children are very aware and we > are kidding ourselves if we don't think that they are, that > teachers do sometimes abuse their power and this particular teacher > does abuse his power. He's not a particularly pleasant person at > all. However, everyone should keep their eye on Snape > HOST: One of our internet correspondents wondered if Snape is going > to fall in love. > > (JKR laughs) Who on earth would want Snape in love with them? > That's a very horrible idea. > > HOST: There's an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape. > > JKR: He, um, there's so much I wish I could say to you, and I > can't because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that > question, can I just say to you that I'm slightly stunned that > you've said that and you'll find out why I'm so stunned > if you read > Book 7. That's all I'm going to say. > www.quick-quote-quill.org...ransc.html > ~JKR: I promise you, whoever asked that question ( if Snape is going > to fall in love)... > > > It is to this question that she says: > > ~ can I just say to you that I'm slightly stunned that you've > said that and you'll find out why I'm so stunned if you read > Book 7. That's all I'm going to say. Stefanie: I may be reading it wrong, but i thought "that question" that she's referring to is the bit about a redemptive pattern. If not, it's ambiguous at the least. I took the whole bit to be about the "redemptive pattern" as in either the interviewer was spot on or way way off. I gleaned from this (and I know "Snapeguements" go on for pages and pages in this group) the very exact quote "this particular teacher does abuse his power" -- I think in this JKR basically denotes Snape's teaching method's as cruel. He's not trying to mould young minds in a tough manner...he's abusing power. The end. > "K": > Q: Who's your favorite character besides Harry Potter? > > A: It's very hard to choose. It's fun to write about Snape because > he's a deeply horrible person. Hagrid is someone I'd love to meet. > www.quick-quote-quill.org...n-abel.htm Stefanie: Another quote that had me staring at the screen with one eyebrow raised! "deeply horrible"? "DEEPLY"? Not a light word to use. Now I do believe, as JKR has stated, that Snape is a complex character...One really can't argue that at all, but as to the nature of his complexity? Is it really all that benign? > "K": > *America Online, > October 19, 2000 > Chat Tran***** >Q: Ms. Rowling, which character besides Harry is your favorite, and why? > >A: I think that would have to be Hagrid -- but I love Ron and Hermione > too, and I also love writing characters like Gilderoy Lockhart, > Snape, the Dursleys... it's such fun doing horrible things to them. > www.quick-quote-quill.org...t-aol.html Stefanie: Erm...Putting Snape into the category of Gilderoy Lockhart and the Dursleys? What company! > "K": > Royal Albert Hall Appearance > June 26 2003 > Q&A with Stephen Fry > > SF: Where as most of the character, like Snape for example, are very > hard to > love but there's a sort of ambiguity [...]in the first book we thought he was the evil one and a > aprt form Voldemort the most evil and in the second we thought that > and slowly we just get this idea that maybe he's not so bad after all > > JKR: Yeees. You shouldn't think he's too nice, let me just say that. > > SF: Right I shall bear that in mind. Worth watching Serverus Snape > > JKR: He's worth keeping and eye on, definitely Stefanie: She is yet again telling us to keep our eye on Snape. Very interesting...and we needn't think he's too nice? > "K": > JL: Prof Snape has always wanted to be the defence against the dark > arts teacher. In book 5 he still doesn't get the job Why does > Professor Dumbledore not allow him to be the defence against the > dark arts teacher? > > SF: There > > JKR: That is an excellent question and the reason is that, I > have to be careful what I say here, the reason is that to answer it > fully would give and awful lot away about the remaining two books [...] > Professor Dumbledore felt that that might bring out the worst in > Professor Snape > Somewhat > > JKR: So he said I think we'll let you teach potions and see how you > get along there > "K": > World Book Day chat > Ali: Why specifically does Dumbledore trust Snape? > > JK Rowling replies - Another excellent and non-answerable question. > I shall merely say that Snape has given Dumbledore his story and > Dumbledore believes it. Stefanie: Ambiguous, yet again. Dumbledore believes it. Yet Dumbledore also believed it to be a good idea to keep the prophecy from Harry, believed that Quirrell was innocuous, believed that fake! Moody was hardly fake...Dumbledore may be a powerful wizard, but he is *far* from omniscient! From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Thu Jul 8 19:16:39 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 19:16:39 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105102 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lifeavantgarde" wrote: > Stefanie writes: > YAY! Someone as interview-nuts as me! I did the same thing with both > Snape and Lupin to try and glean evidence of a not ese!Lupin Xo) Go > crazy Potterheads! "K": Feel free to email me the Lupin interviews! I haven't made it that far yet. I am an interview nut because there are so many false rumors going around concerning what JKR has said. If it can't be found in one of her interviews I don't consider it canon. Stefanie: > I may be reading it wrong, but i thought "that question" that >she's referring to is the bit about a redemptive pattern. If not, >it's ambiguous at the least. I took the whole bit to be about > the "redemptive pattern" as in either the interviewer was spot on >or way way off. "K": But there was only one questin and that was about love. The host makes a statement about redemption and JKR makes a point to go back and address the original question. *I promise you, whoever asked that question* I don't think she would be so stunned that someone figured out a possible redemptive pattern about Snape. Yet I do believe she would find it hard to believe that anyone could think of Snape and love. She has made him such an unpleasant person. Who in the world would ever catch on that we have a nice little love story awaiting us with Snape. :-) I mean, he does have those twins.... Stefanie: > I gleaned from this (and I know "Snapeguements" go on for pages >and pages in this group) the very exact quote "this particular >teacher does abuse his power" -- I think in this JKR basically >denotes Snape's teaching method's as cruel. He's not trying to >mould young minds in a tough manner...he's abusing power. The end. "K": I think it a combination. He does abuse his power (the author says so) but I also think he is the Drill Sergeant. Not warm and fuzzy but he'll get the job done. It's an ugly war awaiting these young people. But honestly, I'm not going to even go any further with Snape's teaching methods. That's one of those subjects I don't read often. Stefanie: > Another quote that had me staring at the screen with one eyebrow > raised! "deeply horrible"? "DEEPLY"? Not a light word to use. Now >I do believe, as JKR has stated, that Snape is a complex > character...One really can't argue that at all, but as to the >nature of his complexity? Is it really all that benign? "K": I really wish she wouldn't have said that. ;-) Deeply horrible. What more can she say? She still hasn't called him evil so I'm hanging onto the hope that he isn't. Not that I think she would tell us at this point if he were. Stefanie: > Erm...Putting Snape into the category of Gilderoy Lockhart and the > Dursleys? What company! "K": How could she? Stefanie: > She is yet again telling us to keep our eye on Snape. Very > interesting...and we needn't think he's too nice? "K": I do find that interview interesting. Does that mean we will find out that Snape *DID* something terrible (Prophecy tattle- tale/other?) or is there something Snape will do in the future that's not very nice. Most times I lean towards the past. I do believe Harry will find out something about Snape that will make him hate Severus even more. Stefanie: >Ambiguous, yet again. "K": She's a pro. Stefanie: >Dumbledore believes it. Yet Dumbledore also believed it to be a >good idea to keep the prophecy from Harry, believed that Quirrell >was innocuous, believed that fake! Moody was hardly >fake...Dumbledore may be a powerful wizard, but he >is *far* from omniscient! "K": But he's also good and kind and still very wise. He is the one I'd want on my side. The one I'd trust the most. For now I trust him where Snape is concerned. As for Lupin, I don't yet believe he is evil but there is just something about him that I can't figure out. From tzakis1225 at netzero.com Thu Jul 8 19:25:19 2004 From: tzakis1225 at netzero.com (demetra1225) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 19:25:19 -0000 Subject: Homosexuality in HP (was Re: Ringdear of the Marauders: Sirius or James?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105103 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pcaehill2" > Pam wrote: [snip] But no one in this whole thread has mentioned Prof. Grubbly- Plank, who is (imo) a fine candidate for a lesbian character--not just because she reminds me of Jane Hathaway, but also due to the hyphenated name, which friends of mine who are in long-term gay relationships often do. [snip] Demetra: So, what do you think about Justin Finch-Fletchley? He did seem to be really impressed with Gilderoy Lockhart. Demetra (who spewed water all over her screen when she read the Jane Hathaway line, and had a lot of 'splaining to do to her co-workers) From kcawte at ntlworld.com Thu Jul 8 18:54:15 2004 From: kcawte at ntlworld.com (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 19:54:15 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Homosexuality in HP (was Re: Ringdear of the Marauders: Sirius or James?) References: Message-ID: <010901c4651c$f7c810b0$bcde6251@kathryn> No: HPFGUIDX 105104 > Why shouldn't sexual orientation also be part of this variety? > :) > Marny > > > Gina: > Maybe because it is a series enjoyed by young children and not just > adults. > Gina > K Uh - so? I don't get your point here at all. Why should having a gay couple (let's stick with the Puppies - Sirius and Remus for simplicity's sake) be related to what age the readers are? I don't want to see them having sex on the kitchen table (well OK I *do* but that would be a whole different type of book ) any more than I would want Molly and Arthur to start going at it in public. I may be misinterpreting your comment but why would kids need to be shielded from the existence of same sex couples? Personally although I take on board the clues that some people see in the pensieve scene my belief that the two of them were a couple was confirmed by their interaction at other points. Especially when Sirius and Molly were fighting at Grimmauld Place, I though the interaction between Molly and Arthur whenever we see it and the interaction between Sirius and Remus in that scene was pretty similar. K From dk59us at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 20:04:31 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 20:04:31 -0000 Subject: The rebirth of Lord Voldemort---a thought I had In-Reply-To: <002101c464aa$852f3d20$12570043@intergate.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105105 Eric Oppen wrote: > In Lloyd Alexander's "Prydain" young-adult fantasy novels, one of > the magical items to be found is the Black Crochan (a "Crochan" is > a cauldron), which is used to make the "Cauldron-Born" undead > warriors that serve the evil Death-Lord Arawn. Like a lot of other > things in this series, this comes from real mythology---in the > earliest versions of the King Arthur story, it was a cauldron, not > the Holy Grail, that the knights went in search of. > I doubt that cauldrons of that size are in common use in the > WW---could the cauldron itself be a significant object? In > Alexander's books, the rightful owners comment that after Arawn's > had his paws on it, it's ruint and fit only to make more > Cauldron-Born, and the good guys have to destroy it---at the cost > of a life. > I wonder when/if we'll see that cauldron again? Eustace_Scrubb: Interesting thought...the cauldron in the Little Hangleton graveyard is really odd. I think you're right about it being unusual in the WW, at least Harry notes that it's larger than any he'd ever used. It's also interesting that it's made of _stone_ (I think the Black Crochan was iron, wasn't it?). And Wormtail is made to _push_ it around the graveyard, with water in it. He really must have been working out between the previous August and the end of GOF. Couldn't he have levitated it into place? I wonder where it came from? Could it have been conjured for the occasion? If the details of the re-birth of Voldemort become important later (and we already know some of the details are important), than maybe it will turn up again. Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From kewpiebb99 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 20:07:24 2004 From: kewpiebb99 at yahoo.com (dkewpie) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:07:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040708200725.22006.qmail@web40503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105106 --- lifeavantgarde wrote: > Stefanie writes: > > HOST: One of our internet correspondents wondered if Snape is > going > > to fall in love. > > > > (JKR laughs) Who on earth would want Snape in love with them? > > That's a very horrible idea. > > > > HOST: There's an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape. > > > > JKR: He, um, there's so much I wish I could say to you, and I > > can't because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that > > question, can I just say to you that I'm slightly stunned that > > you've said that and you'll find out why I'm so stunned > > if you read > > Book 7. That's all I'm going to say. > > www.quick-quote-quill.org...ransc.html > > Stefanie: > I may be reading it wrong, but i thought "that question" that she's > referring to is the bit about a redemptive pattern. If not, it's > ambiguous at the least. I took the whole bit to be about > the "redemptive pattern" as in either the interviewer was spot on or > way way off. I really don't understand why there's confusion. Again I have to urge you and others who still misunderstood the quotes to actually listen to the interview (I don't have link right now as I'm at work, so it'll be easily if you just do a search on the internet). It's clear and no confusion what so ever that JKR is refering to the "love question", NOT the redemptive bit. Even if you look at the transcript there shouldn't be any confusion. First, there's only one question there, and it's the one about "love". The "redemptive pattern" bit is not even a question, it's a statement made by the host. Then, JKR said "whoever ask that question", why would she call the host as "whoever"? The host is just sitting right there with her, would you call someone who's interviewing you and sitting by you as "whoever"? Obviously the "whoever" is refer to the "internet correspondents" who wondered if Snape is going to fall in love, aka THE question. It's as simple as that. K. From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jul 8 20:18:51 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 20:18:51 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105107 > "K": > > Ah, it's that quote again. ^-^ This is the interview people use to > show Snape will fall in love in book 7 and/or that he will be > redeemed. You must go back to that interview and read again. Some > important information was left out that Carol quoted. Let me also > say that the last time I quoted this interview, I was told that one > should hear the audio version so you might want to find it and > listen for yourself. > > > The Connection > 12 October 1999 > J.K. Rowling Interview Transcript > Potioncat: Has anyone ever found an audio of that interview? It might help with our eternal discussion of redemptive vrs love. I also thought she was answering the redemptive comment. But now it does sound to me she's talking about love, as if the interviewer interrupted, but she didn't respond to him. But, as is said in another post, it's hard to tell if we'll find out about a love of Snape's or if we'll find out why no one could love him. Potioncat (who is glad to see the twins are still out there!) From doliesl at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 20:51:31 2004 From: doliesl at yahoo.com (doliesl) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 20:51:31 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105108 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" > Potioncat: > Has anyone ever found an audio of that interview? It might help > with our eternal discussion of redemptive vrs love. I also thought > she was answering the redemptive comment. But now it does sound to > me she's talking about love, as if the interviewer interrupted, but > she didn't respond to him. I checked, the audio file was not on the website anymore http://theconnection.org/shows/ The shows was dated December 28, 1999. But "The Connection" website seems to have move to a new server and clear out everything that is prior to August 2001, so it's not there anymore. But I've listen to it countless of times. Read the transcript I typed (instead of the Quick Quote's) JKR clearly was referring to the "Love" question. Just use logic. The host's name was Lydon and JKR would have addres Lydon: Er - one of our connec- ... one of our internet correspondents wondered if Snape is going to fall in love? ***** An anonymous Internet correspondent ask such question JKR: Yeah? Who on earth would want Snape in love with them, that is a very horrible idea. Erm ... Lydon: But you'd get an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape ***** Host Lydon was taken aback by JKR's dismissing the idea of Snape in love, he probably assume Snape is those redempt-by-love cliche archetypal lonely meanie character so he comment (this is pre- JKR: It is, isn't it ... I got ... There's so much I wish I could say to you, and I can't because it'd ruin ... I promise you ... whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that I'm - I'm slightly stunned that you've said that - erm - and you'll find out why I'm so stunned if you read book 7. And that's all I'm going to say. ***** JKR already respond the "It is, isn't it" regarding "redemptive pattern to Snape" statement by the host (is that close enough to be a "YES"?). So when she said "whoever asked that question", she obviously is not talking about the host Lydon whose name she would have addressed. She would have said "Lydon, I'm stunned by your question about Snape's redemption" but she did not. She's referring to the anonymous internet correspondent's question regarding love. > But, as is said in another post, it's hard to tell if we'll find out > about a love of Snape's or if we'll find out why no one could love > him. Actually the way she word was not why no one culd love him, but why was it horrible to be love BY Snape. D. who feel extremely silly analysis JKR's interview like this but I just can't stand all these unnecessary confusions and honestly don't think all these love stuffs will be any that big a deal. And NO I don't think what JKR hint is about any romantic future plot lines regarding Snape, as evident by her "that's horrible" reaction. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 20:54:43 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 20:54:43 -0000 Subject: Defending Percy ( was Percy Weasley ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105109 Mel wrote: I, Del, wrote : > > Where are the proofs that LV is indeed back ? Mel replied : > Cedric's dead body? That was a big piece of evidence and I was > rather disappointed that it wasn't said how his death of the AK was > explained by the Ministry as "a horrible accident". Del answers : I'd like to know that too. I'm sure they did have a convincing explanation. Mel also wrote : > Also, both McGonagall and Snape heard Barty Crouch's confession, so > it wasn't just the word of DD and Harry. Del replies : I don't remember reading that Snape and McGonagall told *anyone* about what they had witnessed. And I don't remember either that it was revealed to the WW that Barty Crouch Jr had not died in Azkaban. Fudge knows that, but I'm pretty sure Percy, just like the rest of the WW, ignores that fact, and hasn't heard anything from Snape or McGonagall's mouth. Mel wrote : > On top of that there was Fudge's 180 degree turn around regarding > Harry. At least a little suspicous. Del replies : A classic in the WW : remember Sirius ? And you can be fond of a little kid one day, and realise the next day that he's turned into a brat. Nothing suspicious in that. Mel wrote : > Not to mention if DD was going senile, wouldn't the ministry not "go > around "making his name mud", but try to get him to a Doctor? Also > suspicous to me. Del replies : In the eyes of the Ministry, DD is trying to start a panic. It's like if someone famous said they had insider information that a nuclear power plant was leaking : what matters is to make it clear that that person is talking nonsense. Mel wrote : > Additionally, we have the disappearence of that witch (the one > Wormtail caught I've forgotten her name), Karkaroff running off on > his class, Crouch Senior's disappearence and ultimate death. Then we > have the word of his family, which one would think he believes > somewhat intelligent. Either way, there wasn't a "smoking gun", but > there was a lot of strange unexplained occurences that at least > should ahve made Percy think twice, unless he's just the stupidest > person on the planet (which is difficult to believe; he was headboy) Del replies : Lots of weird things had been happening those last years in the WW. There was no particular reason for Percy to believe that this time was so vastly different. Moreover, Percy was just 19, and he knew nothing of the world. He got caught between 2 loyalties, faced with facts that contradicted what he was told. He made the choice that seemed most obvious to him. I, Del, asked : > > How is believing that LV is back "right" ? How is defending one's > > governing body "wrong" ? Mel answered : > In a democratic society defending one's governing body without proof > (in either direction) is unwise and unpatriotic. Del replies : And *fighting* one's governing body with no convincing proof is even *less* patriotic and more unwise. Percy wasn't convinced by the shallow proofs he was presented, so he went for the more patriotic path. I do hope that when my son is nineteen, it will take more than a single testimony from a teenage boy and a bunch of apparently unrelated events to turn him against his country ! Mel wrote : > LV was in fact back that's how it was right. The government > "sweeping it under the rug" (see evidence above) was wrong. Del replies : Easy to say when you're privvy to the events, but Percy was not. Mel wrote : > Percy should have kept an open mind, gathered information on his own, > and then made a decision. It's the only patriotic thing to do. Did > he think that Cedric Diggory dropped dead of his own accord? Really? > Did he speek to Amos Diggory about it? Did he speak to McGonagall or > Snape? Did he do anything, but kiss Fudge's feet? Del replies : We don't know what he did. We still don't know how the Ministry explained away Cedric's death. I don't see what Amos Diggory could have told him except that he believed DD's explanation. Percy didn't know about Crouch Jr and about Snape and McGonagall hearing his confession. Harry did not tell his story to Percy face to face, and we are not told that DD went to see Percy personally either. And LV was still nowhere to be seen. Mel wrote : > The last post you were saying Percy was an adult. Del replies : Maybe I did, but he's still only a 19-year-old adult. Hum, technically, that makes him still a teenager in fact. Mel wrote : > I agree, therefore his behavior is his own responsiblity not > Arthur's. Del replies : But when Daddy says "jump", Percy is supposed to ask "how high" ? How logical is that ? Mel wrote : > Also it wasn't Arthur that insulted Percy, it was Percy that insulted > Arthur. Percy stated he had to struggle against his Dad's "lousy > reputation" and they've always been poor because of his lack of > ambition, etc. Del replies : Percy insulted his father *after* his father insulted him. Arthur denied his son's accomplishment by telling him he was only a pawn between Fudge's hands. That was denying everything Percy had ever accomplished, all the hard work he'd ever done, not to mention his natural talents and capabilities. I find that terribly insulting indeed, and Arthur should have known better that to denigrate *Percy* on *that* particular subject. Percy only ever took pride in, and was ever only praised by his parents for one single thing : his "good grades", his academic and work achievements. And suddenly Arthur pulled the rug from under his feet by dismissing it all. Moreover, Percy was basically right in what he was telling his dad. Arthur might be well-liked by his fellow Ministry members, but he's bound to be a bit of a joke too. He's obviously looked down upon by his bosses (just consider what they gave him as an "office"), and we've been told several times that his love for anything Muggle is considered very weird by his colleagues. Not to mention that some influent people like Lucius Malfoy do their best to crush him any time they can. So I think Percy was right when he said that he's had to battle his father's reputation. It wasn't a nice thing to say but it was true. As for the accusation of the Weasley family being poor because of Arthur's lack of ambition, it might not be completely true, but it revealed what many Weasley kids feel : they hate being poor. Ginny and the Twins might be disgusted by the fact that Percy dared utter it, but I'm not so sure they don't agree with Percy on the fact that being poor is horrible. Ron does anyway. Mel wrote : > Percy completely disrespected his father and left the house, how is > it childish that Arthur doesn't run after him? Percy either comes > back or he doesn't, but I don't think Arthur should go after him. > He's an adult. Del replies : It's childish to wait for someone you love to come back without ever making any peace gesture, no matter who was the offender. Harry did it in GoF with Ron, and it was childish, but Harry *was* a kid. Arthur should know better than to wait for Percy to come back. Percy is barely an adult, he's a very young man full of conflicting instincts. Arthur is much older and supposedly much wiser. He should try to show more maturity than a 14-year-old kid. Del From lszydlowski at hotmail.com Thu Jul 8 18:22:39 2004 From: lszydlowski at hotmail.com (szydlowskil) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 18:22:39 -0000 Subject: HBP Speculation and foreshadowing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105110 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Jane Deau wrote: > > On Jul 7, 2004, at 5:13 AM, Gerard wrote: > > > The only monarchy JKR has told us about is that of the Giants. > > Ohh, where does it say that? Because I do think Hagrid could be the > Half Blood Price. He plays a large-ish role (no pun intended) in COS. > -Jane To Reply: OoTP Chapter 20. Hagrid translates the giant's word for for 'chief', but perhaps it could be rendered 'king'? Gerard From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 18:36:35 2004 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 18:36:35 -0000 Subject: Homosexuality in HP (was Re: Ringdear of the Marauders: Sirius or James?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105111 Marny: > Why should there be any heterosexual relationships? How does > Harry/Cho or > Ginny/Michael Corner/Dean affect the end of the series? > > Love relationships are part of the human (and apparently Wizard) > condition, > and while the books are primarily about the plot, they are also >about the > characters and their development. Romantic relationships are an > important > part of that. > > Moreover, JKR has made a deliberate point to show the diversity of > the > Wizarding world. How does it affect the end of the series that Dean > and Lee > are Black, Cho Asian, Parvati and Padma Indian (or Pakistani, > maybe), etc.? > Why shouldn't sexual orientation also be part of this variety? Gina: > Maybe because it is a series enjoyed by young children and not just > adults. Katie, now: Thank you, Marny, excellent post. If someone could show me why diversity in sexual orientation would *detract* from the world Rowling has created, then I'd be a bit more responsive to the opposing opinion. I'm thrilled with Brenda's response to this: she doesn't think (or want!) that Sirius is gay, but she agrees that it's possible for some to read him that way, as there's nothing in canon that clearly indicates otherwise. If we all read the books the same way, this board would be a dull place indeed. Now, to Gina's comment: Yes, the series is read by young children. Are you arguing that sexuality shouldn't be present in the series, or homosexuality in particular? If the former, I agree that blatant sex shouldn't be a part of the series. But romantic relationships? JKR's already portrayed them, in spades. We've certainly heard a great deal about the romantic troubles of Harry and Cho, for one. If the latter, well, there's not much I can do with that. -Katie who vows to stay on topic From gertgal at aol.com Thu Jul 8 19:45:15 2004 From: gertgal at aol.com (Ginger) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 19:45:15 -0000 Subject: Death, Harry and Voldemort Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105112 There may be a similar thread already, as I am new and cannot read them all. If there is, I apologize. Anyway, We know that Voldemort is interested in conquering death. It was his goal in preserving himself in the diary, the preparations against death he made pre-canon, and perhaps/probably played into trying to kill Harry. Now, Harry is very interested in the nature of death. He wants to know about the veil, how and if he can communicate with Sirius, and if he and Sirius will ever be together again. Does anyone else sense danger here? Could Voldemort somehow encourage and then use Harry's explorations into to death to further his own means? Gielreta-the perfect compilation From cruthw at earthlink.net Thu Jul 8 20:18:51 2004 From: cruthw at earthlink.net (caspenzoe) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 20:18:51 -0000 Subject: Who's "that awful boy"... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105113 Referred to by Aunt Petunia on page 32 of the (U.S.) version of OOTP? I'm new here, and have only scanned the latest page, so my apologies if someone else has already addressed this issue. On my first reading of OOTP, I assumed the person Petunia was referring to in the overheard conversation with her sister Lily about dememtors was James. However, I've begun to suspect differently, especially since I went back to the first book and found no overtly negative description of James from Petunia where she first (and possibly for the only time) refers to him. I have a theory about Snape (yes another Snape theory!) that may tie into this. Anyone else wondered if Lily weren't actually talking to Snape or even LV when Petunia overheard the dementor conversation? Looking forward to meeting y'all! Casey From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 20:59:02 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 20:59:02 -0000 Subject: Snape's mission In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105114 > Potioncat wrote: > Sirius' remark about Snape being Malfoy's lapdog makes me think > there is some contact between Snape and Malfoy separate from > Hogwarts. Neri: I've recently managed to convince myself that after the first war Snape gave the Ministry a false testimony that acquitted Malfoy (and most probably also Nott, Crabbe, Goyle, Avery and Macnair) of being DEs. This was probably done by DD's directions in order to regain their trust in Snape. Canon support for this is not only that "lapdog" accusation by Sirius. In the end of GoF, when Harry named Malfoy as a DE in front of Fudge, "Snape made a sudden movement, but as Harry looked at him, Snape's eyes flew back to Fudge". Several paragraphs later in this scene Snape makes the surprising gesture of showing his Dark Mark to Fudge (and with Molly, Bill and McGonagall present). Does Snape feel just a tiny bit guilty about Fudge refusing to believe Harry, because he is the one who originally convinced Fudge that Malfoy is innocent? Neri From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Thu Jul 8 21:05:56 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 21:05:56 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105115 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "doliesl" wrote: > > But, as is said in another post, it's hard to tell if we'll find out > > about a love of Snape's or if we'll find out why no one could love > > him. > > Actually the way she word was not why no one culd love him, but why > was it horrible to be love BY Snape. > That response sounded to me a bit like changing the subject: Q: Will Snape fall in love? A: Who would want Snape to fall in love with them? It's not really an answer to the original question, is it? It's changing the subject from Snape to someone else's reaction to Snape, and it's done humorously, but it seems almost like a reflexive way of turning the question aside. It doesn't necessarily mean that Rowling was hiding something important: she could have just been laughing at some of the far-fetched ideas people get! But it could also be a way of avoiding to answer a question that's getting a little too close to the truth. Wanda From jakejensen at hotmail.com Thu Jul 8 21:07:54 2004 From: jakejensen at hotmail.com (jakedjensen) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 21:07:54 -0000 Subject: Slytherin as HBP? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105116 "There are strange likenesses between us, after all. Even you must have noticed. Both half-bloods, orphans, raised by Muggles. Probably the only two Parselmouths to come to Hogwarts since the great Slytherin himself" (CoS, p. 317). Who is the half blood prince? I think the books suggest Slytherin. Afterall, Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince was originally a possible title for CoS. CoS focuses a lot on Slytherin and his background. Half Blood Prince would make sense as a title if (1) Rowling discussed Slytherin's background in book two and (2) Slytherin was a half-blood. Here is some more support for this idea. Yes, Slytherin was a pure-blood fanatic. In fact, he may have started the whole pure-blood fanaticism movement. "I never knew (Slytherin) started all this pure-blood stuff" (Ron, CoS, p. 152). But Tom Riddle was also a pure-blood fanatic "You stand, Harry Potter, upon the remains of my late father . . . a Muggle and a fool" (see this whole exchange with HP for his feelings about mudbloods, etc, GoF, p, 646). And he was a half-blood himself "Did you know he's a half-blood too? Voldemort? Yeah, his mother was a witch but his dad was a Muggle?or has he been telling you lot he's pureblood?" (OoTP, p. 784). Even though Tom was not a pure-blood, his hatred of Muggles led to his pure-blood fanaticism. We know that Slytherin also had bad feelings about Muggles. He didn't just hate them, Rowling says he "distrusted" them (perhaps he was harmed by Muggles just like Tom). "(Slytherin) disliked taking students of Muggle parentage, believing them to be untrustworthy" (CoS, p. 150). Muggles certainly weren't known for being kind to wizard folk back then. "for it was an age when magic was feared by common people, and witches and wizards suffered much persecution" (CoS, p. 150). If Slytherin was a half-blood, that would explain why Tom Riddle is his "own true heir" (CoS, p. 151). Tom's blood lineage, unusual in a family of pure-blood fanatics, is identical to Slytherin's (hence the "true heir" part). Why would all this matter? The "prince" part is a mystery to me, but the blood lineage is important because pure-bloods worship Slytherin. As Harry would say, "has he been telling you lot he's pureblood? Just a thought, Jake Jensen From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Jul 8 21:12:38 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 21:12:38 -0000 Subject: The Hogwarts Express (was Re: refreshment witch) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105117 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Phil Boswell" wrote: Phil: > Not as strange as the idea that you could simply have a word with the > driver of a *steam* *locomotive*! I've tried to look on the Web but > haven't managed to find any good-enough pictures of the Hogwarts > Express, but I'm certain I recall there being a tender. (That's the > "coal bunker" pulled behind the locomotive in case the word is > different outside the UK.) > > This would in a normal train make it totally impossible for anyone on > the train to visit the driver (stupid Bond-esque stunts aside :-). > > But Lupin does, and so IIRC does Hermione. Geoff: I wonder whether JKR has been influenced by one particular piece of UK railway technology. The old London & North Eastern Railway (LNER) which became British Railways Eastern Region in 1948 had a couple of classes of Pacific locomotive, some of which were fitted with corridor tenders. These had an offset passage through from the rear to the footplate. Now the interesting part is that the LNER used them on the non-stop "Flying Scotsman" and "Elizabethan" expresses from - wait for it - Kings Cross to Edinburgh Waverley so that the driver and fireman could change over with a relief crew, the service (393 miles) taking about 8 hours or so. From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Thu Jul 8 21:19:16 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 16:19:16 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Homosexuality in HP (was Re: Ringdear of the Marauders: Sirius or James?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105118 * > > Gina: > Maybe because it is a series enjoyed by young children and not just > adults. > Gina > K I may be misinterpreting your comment but why would kids need to be shielded from the existence of same sex couples? I though the interaction between Molly and Arthur whenever we see it and the interaction between Sirius and Remus in that scene was pretty similar. K Gina: I do not plan on arguing this point and I think it is WAY OT anyway, but JKR has said that she is Christian and uses that in her writing. The Christian bible does not really endose that sort of thing. I do not see anything homosexual about anything in these books just like I do not see a need for the comments that Harry was really doing something other than his homework under the covers. That is just absurd and it seems like to me that people are trying really hard to grasp at straws to see what they would LIKE to see in the books instead of the simple innocent things that are really there and it is gross for people to distort a kids book like that. Just my opinion and I stand firm on it but I do not feel we should be talking about this here anyway. Gina - who would much rather speculate who the HBP is or what DD has on Petunia. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 8 21:26:32 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 21:26:32 -0000 Subject: Showing my ignorance (was Homosexuality in HP) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105119 Hope this isn't going too OT, but who is Jane Hathaway? Sylvia From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Jul 8 21:26:56 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 21:26:56 -0000 Subject: Many questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105120 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aggiepaddy" wrote: Aggie: > On the subject of the CoS someone mentioned (V v v sorry but I can't > find it now to acknowledge them) that the tunnel on the MM may be > linked to the chamber. I agree. In PoA when F/G give H the map they > say that it was usable until the previous winter which puts it in the > yr of CoS. I think they didn't come across the basilisk because the > chamber is multifacited. . .it is the chamber of secretS. To access > the chamber that contained the basilisk you needed to speak > parseltongue, but there may be other chambers that don't have that > requirement. I believe that one of these chambers is linked to HBP, > I'd go along with the idea that it's GG but feel it could be Seamus > too. Geoff: I have pasted below a section of message 90496 which discussed the question of the cave-in and any relevance to the Chamber of Secrets and which therefore may be of intrerest to the current discussion. >>>>>>> Constance Vigilance: > I think this > fact was demonstrated when Ron's wand malfunction in the Chamber > tunnel FAR below Hogwarts was able to cause a cave-in and block the > roomy passageway way up on the 4th floor. This is the secret > passageway that the twins and Sirius mention. I think this is good > evidence that at least those two passageways are related. I think > most or all of them are related - and many of them lead out. Geoff: I must be being a bit thick but where did that idea come from? According to canon, (Fred speaking).... "'Don't bother with the one behind the mirror on the fourth floor. We used it until last winter but it's caved in - completely blocked.'" (POA "The Marauder's Map" p.144 UK edition) This is in the November of 1993. So the cave-in was in the winter of 1992. but Harry's confrontation with the basilisk was in the summer of '93 at the end of his second year as the following shows... "Ten minutes into the class, Professor McGonagall told them that their exams would start on the first of June, one week from today." (COS "The Chamber of Secrets" p.210 UK edition) And Ginny was taken into the chamber three days before this date (i.e. 29th May). "Three days before their first exam, Professor McGonagall made another announcement at breakfast." (p.211 same chapter) >>>>>> From tzakis1225 at netzero.com Thu Jul 8 21:29:35 2004 From: tzakis1225 at netzero.com (demetra1225) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 21:29:35 -0000 Subject: Why Sirius was Chosen as Godparent & Sirius' sacrifice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105121 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: [snip] > Not only that, they are choosing a guardian for Harry, a baby with a > Prophecy hanging over his head. A child who will undoubtedly be > targeted by Voldemort & live a life of danger. Anyone agreeing to > guardianship of Harry is agreeing to a life of possible danger and > death themselves, not something your average citizen will take on! > > Looking for someone to fulfill these qualifications leads James & > Lily to Sirius. Who better? He possesses all the negative traits > Kneasy lists (at a drop of a hat, I might add ), but also has > some unique qualifications in this case: Loyal to James & Lily? > Check. Brave? Check. In the Order and safe to tell about the > Prophecy? Check. Willing to take on the task of guarding the One > with the Power? Check. Willing to die for Harry? Check. [snip] > Now back to Godric's Hollow. What if Sirius being willing to die for > Harry has more significance than previously thought? What if James & > Lily chose him for this specific reason? In other words, there's > more to this guardian selection, some additional protection conveyed > onto Harry if Sirius does indeed die while attempting to protect > him, similar to but not as powerful as Lily's sacrifice. Sort of a > strengthening of Lily's sacrifice. > > This is probably something Dumbledore is unaware of until OOTP, or > perhaps is still unaware of, something between Lily/James/Sirius, > that may even involves a charm cast between them. For we know that > Lily's sacrifice is *separate* from the charm Dumbledore placed on > Harry before he was delivered to Petunia. [snip] Demetra: I hope my snipping didn't muddy your meaning. I'm very intrigued by this theory. I'm going to quote myself from post 76111, which was my response to a post suggesting that perhaps Dumbledore had Sirius eliminated. Perhaps Dumbledore didn't "kill" Sirius, maybe he volunteered. Here's why I think this is possible. I can recall Sirius on two occasions saying that sometimes one might have to die for the greater good. The first is in the Shreiking Shack incident in POA where he yells at Peter "THEN YOU SHOULD HAVE DIED...". Again, in OOTP, he says (to F&G, I think, sorry don't have the books with me) something along the lines of "there are things that are worth dying for." He is, after all,from the "noble" Black family. What is more noble than laying down your own life so that the ultimate evil can be eliminated? I could never really convince myself of it,though, because I could never come up with a reason *why* Sirius needed to be eliminated. You have provided a very compelling reason. I absolutely don't think that it is coincidence that Sirius is the character that espouses the nobility (there's that word again) of sacrificing one's life. Demetra (who fully recognizes that this post is a complete 180 from her previous posts on Sirius'character but feels better thinking that Sirius did the right thing in the end) From greatelderone at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 21:37:51 2004 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 21:37:51 -0000 Subject: Homosexuality in HP (was Re: Ringdear of the Marauders: Sirius or James?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105122 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miller, Gina (JIS)" wrote: > Gina: I do not plan on arguing this point and I think it is WAY OT anyway, > but JKR has said that she is Christian and uses that in her writing. The > Christian bible does not really endose that sort of thing. GEO: But where did she say that she agreed with everything the bible says? > I do not see > anything homosexual about anything in these books just like I do not see a > need for the comments that Harry was really doing something other than his > homework under the covers. That is just absurd and it seems like to me that > people are trying really hard to grasp at straws to see what they would LIKE > to see in the books GEO: How exactly is a homosexual relationship anymore gross than a heterosexual way and we've already seen several in the books (Harry/Cho, Arthur/Molly)? > instead of the simple innocent things that are really > there and it is gross for people to distort a kids book like that. GEO: How exactly is a homosexual relationship anymore gross than a heterosexual way and we've already seen several in the books (Harry/Cho, Arthur/Molly)? The initial books may be written for kids, but the latter ones seems to be geared for the adult and ya population afterall some things depicted in the books wouldn't exactly be suitable for children. From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Jul 8 21:42:04 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 21:42:04 -0000 Subject: Who's "that awful boy"... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105123 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "caspenzoe" wrote: Casey: > Referred to by Aunt Petunia on page 32 of the (U.S.) version of OOTP? > > I'm new here, and have only scanned the latest page, so my apologies > if someone else has already addressed this issue. > > On my first reading of OOTP, I assumed the person Petunia was > referring to in the overheard conversation with her sister Lily > about dememtors was James. However, I've begun to suspect > differently, especially since I went back to the first book and > found no overtly negative description of James from Petunia where > she first (and possibly for the only time) refers to him. Geoff: Can I point you to message 83777, the beginning of a series of related threads on "The Awful Boy" which may interest you. From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Thu Jul 8 21:58:29 2004 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 17:58:29 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Homosexuality in HP Message-ID: <019E903E.4080FB87.4B073798@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105124 Gina: I do not plan on arguing this point and I think it is WAY OT anyway, Oryomai: How is this OT? Discussing possible SHIPs in the books and theories for the future is, IMO, the best part. Gina: JKR has said that she is Christian and uses that in her writing. The Christian bible does not really endose that sort of thing. Oryomai: Just because someone is Christian does not mean that they agree with everything in the Bible. I used to be a Christian, and I didn't agree with it then. No one follows Christian dogma to the last letter. Gina: I do not see anything homosexual about anything in these books just like I do not see a need for the comments that Harry was really doing something other than his homework under the covers. Oryomai: I personally don't see ESE!Lupin. That doesn't mean that people aren't allowed to discuss it. I don't know if we'll see a homosexual character in the series -- but why not? And as for people's comments, why don't you "see a need" for them? Isn't discussion about possible undertones and themes part of reading? That's why I read -- to see what's not told on the surface. Gina: That is just absurd and it seems like to me that people are trying really hard to grasp at straws to see what they would LIKE to see in the books instead of the simple innocent things that are really there and it is gross for people to distort a kids book like that. Just my opinion and I stand firm on it but I do not feel we should be talking about this here anyway. Oryomai: How is someone else's opinion absurd? Unless we're specifically told that something isn't true, there's always a possibility. Discussion is about seeing what we want in the books -- interpretation and the like. No two people get the same thing out of Harry Potter...that's the beauty of it. You don't see homosexuality. I don't see MAGIC DISHWASHER. Does that make either of us wrong? No. Now, for some canon: James got married, so we can assume at the very least that he's bi! ;-D Oryomai --There *cannot* be a Sirius/Severus SHIP! Severus is mine! MINE!! From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 22:00:33 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 22:00:33 -0000 Subject: Percy Weasly In-Reply-To: <20040708174749.29434.qmail@webmail6.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105125 I, Del, wrote : > > As a matter of fact, Percy *did* have a proof, albeit an indirect > > one : LV was nowhere to be seen. Amey answered : > Percy didn't have any proof. Lack of proof is never same as absence > of proof, and not at all close to absence of the original happening. Del replies : Percy didn't have any proof that Harry had told the truth either. He had Harry's *word* that LV was back, and the whole Ministry's word that LV was nowhere to be seen. Tough choice ? Not really. Amey wrote : > Also, he decided to believe his superior with whom he is working for > 1 year more than his parents, at least 2 brothers (elder ones, not > considering others), Harry, with whom he was for 4 year, and > Dumbledore, who is (nobody argues) The Greatest Wizard of the > century. What does this tell about him? In the least, that he > cannot judge people properly. Del replies : Well, that's no news that Percy can't judge people properly, now is it ;-) ? However I'd like to counter a few details. Percy was never "with Harry". They were at school at the same time, they shared the same common room, and they spent a precious handful of holidays under the same roof, but that's about it. Percy was no more with Harry than Harry is with any first-year at school. If the Weasleys had a kid 4 years younger than Harry, I don't think Harry would talk to him much. Percy and Harry are acquaintances, not friends : a brother's friend and a friend's brother. Percy was with DD all right. I'm sure that as Prefect and then Head Boy he was well placed to see for himself how DD acts : weirdly at times, secretly most of the time. DD doesn't bother explaining his decisions, he doesn't care about being understood. Percy had a great admiration for DD, but their personalities are so different that he was also bound to be baffled by DD quite often. I'm sure he finds Fudge to be a much more reasonable and understandable man. And about his parents and brothers : is Percy supposed to trust them like a little kid still ? When he was a kid, his parents and older brothers' words were divine word, sure. But he's almost an adult now, so this doesn't apply anymore. I'm sure that when they contacted Charlie, the Weasley parents presented their case in a much more detailed and respectful way. But Percy, maybe because he was still living at home, seems to have been expected to follow his parents' decision automatically. Not fair. Amey wrote : > Also working hard for success is not at all bad. But respecting > people only because they are in power is not at all good. People > should be respected because they deserve it, not just because they > are in power. Del replies : Ah, but you don't understand Percy's logic : people who are in *legal* power are there because they deserve it. There are always exceptions, like Ludo Bagman, but that's the general rule. So yes, in Percy's eyes, it's quite obvious that people in power should automatically be respected. Amey wrote : > he was never asked to follow Dumbledore blindly. In fact, he followed > Fudge and MoM blindly. Del replies : We don't know how much he was told of what really happened. My guess would be not much. As I said in another post, if Percy had been presented with the whole truth beforehand, he would have been able to see Fudge's manoeuver for what it was *himself*. He's not stupid. Amey wrote : > What kind of son/brother he is if he cannot follow his parents and > other family members and decided to follow some stranger? Del replies : The only one with a right mind ? If your whole family got under the rule of a guru, would you feel that you *have* to become a member of the sect too ? Amey wrote : > In my mind, Percy will always be "HeadBoy", "Prefect" or "Assistant", > he will never be "Percy". Del replies : Maybe that's the heart of the problem : most people don't see Percy as a living, breathing, feeling human being, but just as a machine with a different label according to the book. But Percy *is* a human being, complete with flaws and qualities, and entitled to his opinions and his mistakes. Other people are being cut tons of slack because some fans love them, but nobody loves Percy so he's condemned to a life sentence in Azkaban on rather small charges : having made a wrong decision, shouting a few bad words at his father, and being stubborn. How fair is that ? Amey wrote : > He is not encouraging Ron with to get with the right people : the > ones who are apparently sane and patriotic, he is telling him to get > up with "people who count". There is a huge difference in these two > things. Del replies : I agree. But I still believe that Percy has not figured out the real magnitude of the conflict between DD and Fudge. He doesn't realise he's in a war situation, he thinks it's just a little conflict, with DD on the losing side. Amey wrote : > I accept Dumbledore and Harry had no proof, but why should he create > panic? Just to make people respect him more? Does that make sense to > you after seeing Dumbledore for 5 years? Del replies : You shouldn't ask me that :-), because after 5 years I've come to distrust DD quite a lot. I would still obey a direct order from him, but I'd keep looking behind my back. DD still hasn't made his agenda public. He says he's fighting LV, but he doesn't reveal his plans. He tells people only the minimum they need to know to perform their task correctly. And he's quite mad sometimes :-) Amey wrote : > (Harry at least had Cedric's body and Crouch Jr, though Fudge > didn't and can't listen to them). Del replies : Percy most probably doesn't know about Crouch Jr, nobody does outside of those that were at Hogwarts at the time it happened and the people in the Order. Amey wrote : > Yes, there is some hope for him, but still of he goes on his current > route, he is next Crouch Sr (Remember what Ron says about him in PoA, > he is really ambitious. That is really *great* comment coming from > his brother). Del replies : Percy is 19, only 19 !! Give him a break ! He's not like Crouch Jr who went Crucioing the Longbottoms, and even if he separated himself from his family, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't send any of them to the Dementors like Crouch Sr (no matter what Ron says). And Ron always *overtly* despised ambition, but deep inside his deepest dream at age 11 was to become Head Boy and Quidditch Captain ! Quite hypocrit don't you think ? At least Percy was always honest about his ambitions. Del From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 22:01:07 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 22:01:07 -0000 Subject: Snape's mission In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105126 > Aggie wrote: > Am I the only one who thinks that it's a possibility that Snape's > mission was NOT to infiltrate the DEs? > > > > I don't know what else his mission could be but I just find it > incredible that he'd be able to just re join the DEs without getting > himself killed! > > Just an idea. It also seems FAR too obvious to me, as everyone seems > to just be assuming that's what he's been doing. JKR doesn't very > often go with the obvious. > > What do you all think? Neri: Potioncat (#105093) already gave the reasons we believe ia a double agent. So it is back to the question of how does he bring this off, and why would LV believe him. There is an old suggestion (I don't know who made it first) that it was originally LV who sent Snape to DD as an agent. Then there is my suggestion that Snape acquitted Malfoy and other DEs after the first war from being DEs. In this way Snape gained a similar status (in LV's eyes) to that of Malfoy, Avery and others: he is a DE who, after the first fall of LV, did everything he could to deny his connection with LV and get himself out of Azkaban, but remains friendly with the other ex-DEs and loyal to the pureblood ideology. So why does LV forgive Avery and Malfoy in the graveyard scene, but does NOT forgive Snape? Because: 1. Snape didn't answer the Dark Mark summoning and didn't make it to the graveyard. 2. Because in SS/PS, Snape tried to prevent Quirrelmort from getting the Stone. But Snape can find very good answers to these accusations: 1. I couldn't come to the graveyard because this would have blown my cover as DD's man. 2. I didn't know that you were hiding in Quirrell's turban. I thought Quirrell were trying to get the Stone for himself. LV might buy these excuses, but I'm sure he wouldn't have Snape back without taking a good look into his mind. But we know Snape is a very good Occulomens, and he can use DD's pensieve to hide specific memories from LV. In the first Occlumency lesson Snape says to Harry: "The Dark Lord, for instance, almost always knows when somebody is lying to him. Only those skilled at Occlumency are able to shut down those feelings and memories that contradict the lie, and so can utter falsehoods in his presence without detection". So it seems this is exactly what Snape is doing. How much does LV trust Snape now? Probably not much. LV apparently didn't told Snape in advance about his scheme to lure Harry to the DoM. But Snape still maintains a connection with Malfoy and other DEs and he might learn things from them. We know that he had learned enough to make several reports to the Order in the beginning of OotP. Neri From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Thu Jul 8 22:10:19 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 22:10:19 -0000 Subject: Homosexuality in HP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105127 >>> Gina wrote: > I do not plan on arguing this point and I think it is WAY OT anyway, but JKR has said that she is Christian and uses that in her writing. The Christian Bible does not really endose that sort of thing. I do not see anything homosexual about anything in these books just like I do not see a need for the comments that Harry was really doing something other than his homework under the covers. <<< Brenda now: [Apologizing for *slight* OT nature in advance] I can tell you this much. I am a very devoted and spiritual Christian (not necessarily kosher-religious, but yes, spiritual). My dad studies Theology, and I have many friends who are Missionaries devoting their lives to God all over the world. I believed He has touched my life tremendously, and I love Him very much so. But am I kosher and 'scientific' about the Bible (say non-drinking or whatnot) I'm not *quite* there yet (just turned 21, give me a break! Lol) -- but I do limit it as much as I can. Do I believe homosexuality is wrong -- yes, it IS wrong in the eyes of God. But is it wrong for those who actually *face* this -- NO. Let me give you an example: I have quite a few friends who are gay. Now some of them come from a very STRICT Christian & conservative family (you can smell the tension and problem already). They face a hell of dislike from their own parents and even some of friends. They never had a steady and regular menstrual cycle, they always 'looked' different and 'felt' different. I'm not an expert on this issue but I believe one of the most significant factors is biological in nature. Watching my friends in agony and frustration in attempt to stand up for their beliefs, I cannot blame them. I cannot pinpoint my fingers at them and declare 'You are evil and this is wrong because the Bible says so'. I personally don't understand why God has said it is wrong when some part of it is clearly out of any conscious control. I hope to understand it some day and still love my friends as who they are, but right now it confuses me. I don't know how much of a strict Christian JKR is, but if she isn't studying Theology or planning on becoming a minister and such, I daresay she wouldn't really know the answer to the question above either. I also have no clue whether she believes in homosexuality, but it seems to me that JKR wouldn't intolerate minorities if one of central themes in HP series is 'Apprearance vs. Reality'. In a broad sense, 'Muggle-borns' in WW can be 'homosexuals' in RL, in terms of being minority and looked down upon, etc. JKR presents it in a manner that Slytherin-ideology is bigoted and arrogant, but what happens if you apply this to RL? Am I a great supporter of gays and their marriage? Not really. But I choose to hold my tongue till my investigation to this matter is fully complete, and I will certainly *not* turn my back on my good friends (they got me into Potterverse!). If I really wanted them to be out of it then I'll pray to God, as it is the only way, but I will not hold them in contempt. >>> Katie wrote in Message #105111: > I'm thrilled with Brenda's response to this: she doesn't think (or want!) that Sirius is gay, but she agrees that it's possible for some to read him that way, as there's nothing in canon that clearly indicates otherwise. If we all read the books the same way, this board would be a dull place indeed. <<< Bren now: [Gone more red than after a glass of Martini! (which is more than enough, believe me)] THank you Katie! I don't think I've had such a generous compliment in like a month! Of course I don't want him to be gay, anyone who has read my posts before would know just how much I FANCY SIRIUS, but elements are definitely there if anyone wants to read into them, IMO. >>> K wrote in Message #105104: > I don't want to see them having sex on the kitchen table (well OK I *do* but that would be a whole different type of book ) any more than I would want Molly and Arthur to start going at it in public. I may be misinterpreting your comment but why would kids need to be shielded from the existence of same sex couples? <<< Bren now: You know, you made me shriek in laughter in the middle of office. Fortunately I wasn't drinking anything. But now I have the image of a black dog and a werewolf rolling on my kitchen table and it's not going away!! Brenda, who must lose this image before she goes to her "Reproduction" lecture O_o From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Thu Jul 8 22:16:56 2004 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 22:16:56 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Homosexuality in HP (was Re: Ringdear of the Marauders: Sirius or James?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105128 Gina says: > > Maybe because it is a series enjoyed by young children and not just > > adults. I think Gina is right. It is true that these books are read and loved by people of all ages. And no one can say what JKR actually has in mind. But I think it is highly unlikely that she will put anything overtly inappropriate to young readers in her books, if only because I get the impression from her interviews that she really values the young readers. If you have ever read a children's series by Diane Duane, starting with a book called *So You Want To Be A Wizard,* you can see an example of how a good writer can make such things clear to adult readers without using any language or imagery that would not be suitable for children as young as eight. (Like JKR's books, some of them are scary enough that I wouldn't give them to anyone younger than that anyway.) I came away from them with a strong impression -- and given Diane Duane's adult science fiction works, a plausible impression -- that the two adult wizard mentors are intended to be a gay couple, but if I had to *prove* it from the books, I couldn't find enough written evidence to do so. It is my opinion that JKR didn't (and won't) put any such thing in her books, but a) I could be wrong -- someone should ask her! and b) if she does, I am sure that she will be at least as subtle and skillful as Diane Duane. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Check out the latest news, polls and tools in the MSN 2004 Election Guide! http://special.msn.com/msn/election2004.armx From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 22:37:42 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 22:37:42 -0000 Subject: Chapt. Discussion: Chapter 22 - Harry's Support In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105130 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: Asian_lovr2: To reference an old fable, I think we are both holding onto different parts of the same elephant and refusing to let go. Conclusion: we are at a stalemate. So, there isn't much point in going on. Of course, I would never let that stop me. So, I have added some minor comments below. In case you didn't get my email, excellent post in defense of Percy. > > Steve wrote : > > Also, to your point that Harry wouldn't take any help that might > > have been offerred to him. Believe it or not, that's not the > > point, ... it's about the comfort of knowing the help and support > > is there. > Del replies : > But it was always there ! Even when he was left alone at the > Dursleys', he was still receiving letters from his friends. It was > limited support I agree, but it was support nonetheless. Had Ron and > Hermione been there in person, they would not have been able to tell > him more. ..edited... Asian_lovr2: Let's ask Harry whether on not the support was there. In general, it doesn't matter if it was there, the important factor is whether Harry believes it is there and can take some comfort in that belief. As far as Ron and Hermione telling Harry anything special if they were there in person, it's not the 'telling' part that is important, it's the 'in person' part. Having company, companionship, someone to distract you from your depressing thoughts and circumstances is very comforting. Let's face it when most friends hang out together, they don't talk about vital and important things, frequently the don't talk at all, they just mope around together, but that 'together' part can be tremendously benificial. Loneliness, isolation, uncertainty, and insecurity are the enemy, not lack of information. When Harry came to Grimmauld Place, he wasn't really given that much information. It was not the limited information that gave him comfort, it was being around the people he cared about and having the comfort of their presents. It was being reconnected to the wizard world, and being reconnected to what was going on even if he couldn't be a part of it or know what was happening. > > Steve wrote : > > None of my suggestions compromised the priorities of The Order in > > any way. Mrs. Figg was already there watching over Harry.... She > > did, in fact, invite Harry to tea several times, and if Harry had > > know she was a Squib ... he would have been there in a second. > Del replies : > Harry was *dumped* at Mrs Figg's by the Dursleys when they went > celebrating Dudley's birthday, back before Harry went to Hogwarts. > Mrs Figg never invited him. It would have looked mightily odd if she > started inviting him suddenly this summer, for no reason. Asian_lovr2: Well, here is at least one point I can make with certainty. ----OotP - Am Ed HB Pg 2 ---- '... Mrs. Figg, a batty, cat-loving old lady from nearby Wisteria Walk, amble slowly past. ... Harry was pleased that he was concealed behing the bush: Mrs. Figg had recently taken to asking him around for tea whenever she met him in the street.' - - - End Quote - - - In the broader story, Harry was 'dumped' at Mrs. Figg as part of a strategic plan by Dumbledore to have someone in the neighborhood watch over Harry when the Dursleys weren't around. Part of Mrs. Figgs batty old lady act was to make her more appealing to the Dursleys and less appealing to Harry, and less appealing to Harry, in and of itself, would have made her more appealing to the Durselys. If Harry had know who Mrs Figg was he would have certainly accepted those invitations. And being able to spend some time with her, even if that sat in silence drinking cold tea and eating stale cake, would have still offered some comfort to him. But it only helps if he knows that she is connected to the wizard world, otherwise, there isn't much incentive to associate with a batty old lady. > > Steve wrote : > > In addition, Harry protectors visible at Figg's place would not > > have had to compromise their secretly following Harry. ... These > > guards are already there in Little Whinging, it just a matter of > > whether the cloak is off or on. > > Del replies : > I don't think you understood the full extent of my explanation as to > why Harry was left alone. The Order was trying to determine LV's > intentions. So they left Harry very visibly alone as a *bait*. > ...edited... > Asian_lovr2: Well, you are right, I did miss your emphasis on that one point. That said, sorry but I don't believe you. Clearly the Order was NOT hanging Harry out as bait. They were trying to do everything possible to keep Harry out of trouble with the Ministry, and to guard him from attack. Certainly, Voldemort and the Death Eaters were a concern, but one of their highest priorities seem to be to keep Harry from doing any magic. True a DE attack would be a very strong provocation for Harry to perform magic, so I'm not discounting the dangers of Big-V and the DE's. I'm just saying that I find the idea of the Order intentionally hanging Harry out as bait as being extremely unlikely. The primary purpose of Harry's guard were to protect him from attack, and in the process prevent him from performing magic. Tea at Figgs would have been far more effective than hiding while Harry moped around the playpark. > Steve wrote : > > That would have certainly reduced his sense of isolation. That > > certainly would have increased his comfort level. That certainly > > would have allayed his anxiety level. ... Contained at Figg's is > > certainly safer that wandering around in the open. > Del replies : > If the Order's only goal had been to guard Harry, they would have > sent a member to *live* at the Dursleys'. Or maybe just Ron and > Hermione for that matter : they could have stayed in Harry's room > all day long, and go out when an adult member came around to visit > them. Now *that* would have made Harry's life easier. But it would > have thwarted the Order's *primary goal* : force LV to move. > Asian_lovr2: Well, we agree having company would have made Harry's life easier. That's a step in the right direction. But I still can't buy 'Harry as bait'. True, it is a logical extension that explains why things went the way they did, but I still don't buy it. I agree that the Order was certainly distracted by priorities of the moment, but in the grand scheme of things, Harry is an extremely high priority, and it would have taken very little time, and in my opinion, fewer additional resource to do it my way. > Steve wrote : > > I say once again- There is absolutely no need for Harry to be 100% > > cut off from the wizard world during the summer holiday. > > Del replies : > And I say once again : there was probably a very good reason for him > to be isolated. > > By the way, Harry was no more cut off from the WW than his previous > years, or than any other Muggle-born kid. > Asian_lovr2: My statement that there is no reason for Harry to be cut off for weeks at a time is an all encompassing statement; it spans all the books. There has never been any need for Harry to have to wait until the final two weeks of holiday before he can come to the Weasleys. Like I said, an hour or two, a day or two, here and there at the beginning and all through the summer holiday would do Harry a lot more good than, two weeks at the end. Ron and/or Hermione could have easily Floo to Mrs. Figg and joined Harry while he wandered around or sat in the garden for an hour or two. Alternately, Harry could have Floo to the Burrow for an afternoon. True in the beginning, it made sense to hide Mrs. Figg true identity from Harry. But in my book, from the summer of PoA between 2nd and 3rd year, it stopped making sense. For what it's worth, I do see your point, I just don't agree with it. It's true the wizard world is not very 'touchy-feely' or very emotionally supportive place, but given what a vitally significant character Harry is in and to the wizard world, the tiniest little effort would have been nice. Harry is already a tortured soul, why compound that with more torture? For what it's worth. Steve/asian_lovr2 From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Thu Jul 8 22:38:03 2004 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 22:38:03 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Think on This...... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105131 Aisbelmon at hotmail.com said: >It will be a turning point for Harry to realise that his potential >lies in his love for all things and his impressive list of >challenging victories will be noted which I think we should read >carefully; Aragog, Fawkes, Dobby, Snakes, the snitch (based on a >magical creature) he was the first to ride Buckbeak, he understands >the Centaurs like not even Hermione can. > I'd like to disagree with some parts of this: Aragog doesn't exactly count as a victory since he and Ron would have been Spider Chow if not for being rescued by the Ford Anglia; he did not actually ride Buckbeak in the book (movie contamination, although a really good scene!); and almost anyone does better with the Centaurs than Hermione did -- the only one worse was Umbridge. :) Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Thu Jul 8 22:44:06 2004 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 22:44:06 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Re: A HBP Clue? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105132 Cathy Drolet points out: >Percy wasn't down there snooping or investigating. Just a bit before, >Penelope Clearwater had come out of that same area. He was down there with >her. We find out later the girl Harry & Ron met as Crabbe and Goyle was >Penelope when they see her in the Hospital wing. Later still, we find out >Percy and Penelope were meeting all over the school and Ginny ran into them >somewhere. Why was it so important for Percy to keep his relationship with >Penny hidden? Now, there's a question. Is Penny muggle-born (I think >so...TR said that killing muggle-borns isn't what he was interested in any >more, it was Harry). Is Percy afraid his family will be upset by it, or >just doesn't want to be teased to death by F&G? The simplest explanation is that he wants to avoid aggravation from Fred and George, and I think that's the way it starts out. However, it is possible that if the relationship is still going on, he is keeping it quiet because she is a muggle-born, as you say. Percy knows perfectly well his family won't care -- but he also knows that influential people in and around the Ministry of Magic probably would care -- and this is important to him. I hope that isn't why, because if it is, it's one more indication that Percy is going downhill in a big way. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Thu Jul 8 22:51:11 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 22:51:11 -0000 Subject: Who's "that awful boy"... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105133 >>> Casey wrote: I'm new here, and have only scanned the latest page, so my apologies if someone else has already addressed this issue. <<< Bren now: Welcome aboard, Casey! Yes, it was discussed by some members over the past month that I became acquainted (that's an underestimation, more like obssessed) to HPFG. But it is quite a job trying to catch up with all the old posts and the search archive doesn't work properly for me anyways. So I have learned to embrace my thick skin and post a message/thought that potentially had been discussed numerous times, lol. >>> Casey: [on Petunia's comment of "that awful boy"] > I have a theory about Snape (yes another Snape theory!) that may tie into this. Anyone else wondered if Lily weren't actually talking to Snape or even LV when Petunia overheard the dementor conversation? <<< Bren now: You are quick to catch up! Yes, Snape was the one HPFG members suspect to be "that awful boy". As for canon, sorry I can't remember much. But I do remember someone reasoning that Snape's greasy hair is more apt for the "awful" comment than neat/tidy James. And the rebuttal argument was that Petunia would have regarded ANY wizard/witch to be "awful", no matter how they behaved or presented themselves. Bren From Zarleycat at aol.com Thu Jul 8 22:52:50 2004 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 22:52:50 -0000 Subject: How does a Wizard becoming 'untraceable'? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105134 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > According to the FAQ on JKR's website, a witch or wizard can become > untraceable just like a building can be unplottable. JKR said this > in response to the question of why the MOM didn't send an owl to > Sirius and follow it. > > Any ideas? It must tie in with Dumbledore in PS, when he said there > are other ways to become invisible besides using an Invisibility > cloak. > > Maybe there's nothing more to it, just another complex spell in the > WW that we haven't heard about yet! Marianne: I wonder if this will turn out to be an explanation that only leads to more questions. How complicated is this? How much time does it take? Do you need a wand to do this? If you're untraceable, can people see you when you're standing right next to them? I'd think the answer to the last question has to be "Yes" otherwise there would be no need for a Secret Keeper to hide James' and Lily's location. They could have simply wandered about in untraceable bliss. Unless once they each were untraceable, they couldn't find each other. And,Sirius would not have had to stay shut inside 12 Grimmauld Place for nine months. So, I don't think it necessarily makes one invisible. I think it means that whatever methods wizards use to establish or reach the location of a person who is at some distance away don't work. They can't lock on to their target (even if the target is simply someone to whom you're sending a birthday card) because the target can't be traced. Marianne From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 22:57:22 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 22:57:22 -0000 Subject: Secret keeping (was: Sirius revisted) In-Reply-To: <008901c45fd1$ee0dc560$c800000a@crouton> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105135 > Christina in GA wrote: I think some did know where the Potters lived, possibly Sirius > and DD and Lupin, maybe some trusted others. The information wouldn't be forgotten. DD wrote the note about the headquarters of the OotP, Harry read it, remembered it, then the note was destroyed. He doesn't forget where the house is but he isn't the secret keeper so even though he knows where the house is he can't tell anyone. Someone else said that even if he had drank the tea Umbridge gave him - which I immediately believed contained something - she would not have understood what he was saying even if he told her the truth of the location. Carol: In order to know where the Potters lived after Peter Pettigrew became Secret Keeper, Sirius, Dumbledore, and Lupin would have to be told by Peter himself, even if they knew it before. At least that's the way I understand it. It's even possible that James and Lily had to be told where they lived, though that seems to be taking it a bit far. (I think Lily herself placed the charm on Peter. Dumbledore clearly didn't, and who else would have had the skill?) Anyway, it *appears* that Peter, trying to appear trustworthy, told Sirius and Dumbledore (but not Lupin, whom he wanted them to suspect as the traitor) about Godric's Hollow. Otherwise it's hard to understand how Sirius knew where to go and Dumbledore knew where to send Hagrid after the Potters were killed. (At that point, with the charm broken, he'd be able to reveal the secret to Hagrid.) But Lupin, if he'd been in on the secret, would also have shown up--and he didn't. So he must have forgotten what he had once known when the secret was placed inside Peter. Harry knowing the whereabouts of Order Headquarters but being unable to reveal it isn't really the same thing, since he couldn't have known the secret before it was revealed to him by DD on that scrap of paper. As for something being in the tea that Umbridge gave Harry, we know what was in it--fake veritaserum supplied by Snape to Umbridge, as DD informs us near the end of OoP (another instance of Snape being on Dumbledore's and Harry's side without Harry adequately appreciating it). But you're right that even if real veritaserum forced Harry to reveal that secret (and we don't know that it could), Umbridge wouldn't have been able to do anything with that knowledge. I'm not sure that's what she was looking for, in any case. Carol (in AZ), resisting the temptation to look up that scene because she's still behind on posting From dicentra at xmission.com Thu Jul 8 23:04:08 2004 From: dicentra at xmission.com (Dicentra spectabilis) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 23:04:08 -0000 Subject: On the Homosexuality in HP Thread Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105136 Hi folks: Dicey Elf here, jumping in to prevent what looks to be a flame war (pardon the pun). Here's the thing: ? As long as people are analyzing *canon*, the subject of who might or might not be gay is appropriate for the main list. ? When speculating on who might comprise these pairings, the SHIP prefix should be used. ? Speculating on whether JKR would or would not address homosexuality is on topic. ? _All_ of us see what we want to see in the novels. While some elements of the novels are more clearly deliniated, more obscure patterns are also legitimate topics of debate. Some of those patterns really aren't there ::coughMarkEvanscough::, but until we know for sure, it's OK to wonder. If we forbade discussing slash (gay) pairings, we'd have to forbid all shipping discussions. If we forbade speculation on whether JKR would address the topic of homosexuality, we'd have to forbid speculation on whether she would address a lot of other topics. The problem is that the debate over homosexuality is highly charged in RL discourse, so addressing the issue on HPfGU has the potential to evoke extremely strong emotions. For some people, the mere suggestion that any of the characters might really be gay is offensive. For other people, the assertion that children should not be exposed to same-sex parings is equally offensive. This offense is rooted in deeply held, usually well-motivated beliefs on both sides. It is imperative that you NOT characterize those who disagree with you as evil or stupid. Unless you're a skilled Legilimens, you can't see into someone else's heart, so you don't know what their motives are. On HPfGU, engaging in polite, respectful discourse is more important than being *right*. It's a tough balancing act, especially given that so much of the discourse in real life (RL) on this issue is neither respectful nor measured nor dispassionate. If you can't join the debate without getting hot under the collar, we invite you to withdraw from the thread. This is how you properly discuss hot-button topics on HPfGU: ? Stick to canon. You may speculate as to who might be paired up, but you need to give examples from canon to support your theory. You may also use canon to refute those speculations. Do NOT use your own personal ideology or your Biblical interpretations to support your ideas. ? Check your emotions at the door. We're here to discuss topics that arise from reading HP, not to resolve RL issues. Save your passion for letters to your legislator. ? Do not engage in ad-hominem attacks. Never, never, never, imply that your opponent is stupid or evil. This applies to all posts, BTW. Dispute ideas but don't insult individuals. ? Don't recite your credentials as a Christian or spiritual person or gay-rights activist or whatever. Your background is not the issue here: HP is. ? Do NOT try to use this list to win ideological battles. That's for other forums that are designed for that purpose. ? If the subject bothers you, avoid the thread. You're not obligated to read all posts. ? If you insist on reading the thread anyway and it's pissing you off, please don't fire off an angry reply, not even off-list. Write the message if you must, but hit "save" instead of "send." It is extremely important that we treat each other with respect and keep an open mind on all subjects. Here's how you know if you have an open mind: ? You recognize that you can't tell who is moral or intelligent by where they land on the political spectrum. People have their reasons for believing what they believe, and those reasons have to do mostly with personal experience. We all have different experiences; ergo, we all have different beliefs. If you were raised differently, you'd probably believe differently, too. ? You recognize that some of the people on *your* side of the issue are stupid and immoral, just as some of your opponents are intelligent and moral. ? You recognize that everyone is making judgments based on incomplete information. None of us is omniscient. In the future, you or your opponent might switch sides upon learning something new. ? You cut other people the same break you want them to cut you. If you want people to thoughtfully consider your point of view, you have to thoughtfully consider their point of view, too, even if you still disagree in the end. ? You recognize that your opponents have much to teach you because they are different from you; see what you can learn from them, even if you ultimately decide not to agree fully. BOTTOM LINE: Anyone who persists in stoking the fire of contention (which is different from mere debate) will face disciplinary action from the List Elves. This applies to all threads. --Dicey "you can't enlighten people by first alienating them" Elf From firedancerflash at comcast.net Thu Jul 8 23:08:55 2004 From: firedancerflash at comcast.net (Firedancer) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 19:08:55 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Homosexuality in HP (was Re: Ringdear of the Marauders: Sirius or James?) References: Message-ID: <05a601c46540$8af1ef00$e60b8f45@Voov> No: HPFGUIDX 105137 I don't know about all of you, but I for one am derned sick of this thread. For gosh sakes, put the ganishing charm on it, and get it out of here. I like this group, and I feel I learn a lot from it, but this thread has come down to pure blather--straight, unadulterated, ninety-nine and forty-four one hundredths percent pure blather. For crying out loud, learn to take things at face value once in a while and stop looking for perversion in every little incident. Let's say, just for the sake of argument, that Snape can't possibly resist Milk Duds. The way this thread is going, someone's going to say that Snape is in love with Dudley because of his candy preference. Please, folks, give it a rest already. June None but the piper keeps up with the dancer! Siempre revelde!! June From Batchevra at aol.com Thu Jul 8 23:13:22 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 19:13:22 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Defending Percy ( was Percy Weasley ) Message-ID: <1dd.25d3e3f6.2e1f2f12@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105138 In a message dated 7/8/04 6:11:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, delwynmarch at yahoo.com writes: >Katie wrote : > Even if Fudge were ousted, I think Percy would rationalize this, > severing his loyalties to Fudge and clinging to the Ministry's > decisions. I don't see him losing reverence for the MOM's policies Del replies : I don't understand : why *should* he ? It was indeed Fudge who was wrong, not the Ministry policies. Once the Minister changes, the Ministry will realign itself, and Percy will do good to follow.< What if Fudge is followed by somebody who is worse than what Fudge did in OOTP? The way you put it, Percy is going to follow that person and their ways with no independent thought. So you approve of Percy being a follower, which I don't think really gets to who Percy is. When we see Percy in COS, during the Diagon Alley part of the book, the Weasleys and Harry have an hour before they go to get their school books and meet Lockhart. Percy is found in a Junk shop reading a book about Hogwarts prefects and their careers after. Percy is ambitious and in his way of thinking, working for the MOM and head Minister is a step in that direction for power. He has to make a choice in the next two books, will he allow his family to die, or will he stand with them. At this point, I think Percy is going to have a rude awakening and it will affect the Weasleys. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From joretjor at yahoo.com.ar Thu Jul 8 22:23:09 2004 From: joretjor at yahoo.com.ar (joretjor) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 22:23:09 -0000 Subject: hi Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105139 I'm joretjor, and I must tell you I'm glad I've found a page like this. Sorry about my English, but I'm from Argentina so I'll do my best with my English. I have a question: Is Sirius really dead? I'm not sure. Well, tell me your opinion about this. joretjor From musicofsilence at hotmail.com Thu Jul 8 23:46:18 2004 From: musicofsilence at hotmail.com (lifeavantgarde) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 23:46:18 -0000 Subject: JKR quotes - "Canonicity" of Interviews? (was: Re: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105140 > "K": > Feel free to email me the Lupin interviews! I haven't made it that > far yet. Stefanie: I'll definitely email them to you...there's not nearly as much as there is on Snape, but it's interesting nonetheless > I am an interview nut because there are so many false rumors going > around concerning what JKR has said. If it can't be found in one of > her interviews I don't consider it canon. Stefanie: ::A RESOUNDING "HERE HERE"!:: ('swhy I tend to run away from "house switching arguments!) > "K": > > But there was only one question and that was about love. The host > makes a statement about redemption and JKR makes a point to go back > and address the original question. > > *I promise you, whoever asked that question* > > I don't think she would be so stunned that someone figured out a > possible redemptive pattern about Snape. Yet I do believe she would > find it hard to believe that anyone could think of Snape and love. > She has made him such an unpleasant person. Who in the world would > ever catch on that we have a nice little love story awaiting us with > Snape. :-) I mean, he does have those twins.... Stefanie: LOL...but of course! I'm looking for an audio version of this interview, since there have been many references to how plain the inflection is. Actually, in the situation that it does refer to the love question, it makes more sense in my elaborate tr?s-Slytherin!Snape theories > > Stefanie: > > > Another quote that had me staring at the screen with one eyebrow > > raised! "deeply horrible"? "DEEPLY"? Not a light word to use. Now > >I do believe, as JKR has stated, that Snape is a complex > > character...One really can't argue that at all, but as to the > >nature of his complexity? Is it really all that benign? > > "K": > > I really wish she wouldn't have said that. ;-) Deeply horrible. What > more can she say? She still hasn't called him evil so I'm hanging > onto the hope that he isn't. Not that I think she would tell us at > this point if he were. Stefanie: I see what you mean! She's masterfully written this character. It's hard to believe that he's completely loyal to the Order, it's hard to believe that he's loyal to the DEs and LV, he's...well...a riddle wrapped in an enigma! Like I said, though, I was pretty much slack- jawed when I read this! Even though I'm an avid interview-thumper (? Xo) ) sometimes I wonder how far we're supposed to take them. I'm assured that she knows these characters intimately enough to be able to answer questions consistantly...but then again, there's the classic case of the "maths" problem in regards to the ages of the Weasley boys. Do we take these with a grain of salt? I'm erring on the side of the validity of the interviews, but in the back of my mind, my jury's still hung. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 23:46:20 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 23:46:20 -0000 Subject: Ron's Middle Name In-Reply-To: <00fc01c46089$a7332730$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105141 Alina wrote: I keep on seeing posts on the Bubble Gum Wrappers Anagram thread asking if Ron's middle name begins with a B, even though several people replied that yes, it's Bilius. So here it is once and for all. Here's a copy/paste of the transcript of the chat where JKR revealed it: Carol: Thanks for providing that link. We can add that Ron is named after his Uncle Bilius, the one who died after seeing the Grim (mentioned somewhere in PoA). What I don't understand, though, is how supposed information about "Ron B W" being a Muggleborn (rather than a pureblood, as we've been led to believe for five books) would be in any way significant enough to be the message that the gum wrappers are intended to convey. Even if it were true, it wouldn't be the reason the Longbottoms were tortured. I still believe that the gum wrappers are only a touching gesture intended to convey that Alice vaguely recognizes Neville and Neville values anything she gives him. Why aren't there any bubbles? Because Alice has forgotten how to blow them and just chews the gum as if it were Wrigley's spearmint (see JKR's desk). And I see no reason not to believe Dumbledore that the Longbottoms were tortured in hopes that they could provide information on Voldemort's whereabouts. (How the DEs knew he wasn't dead or whether it had anything to do with Neville and the Prophecy, I can't say.) I do know that JKR took Umbridge--erm, umbrage--with fans who suggested that Peter Pettigrew might be Neville's father, implying that Alice Longbottom, in her view, is a heroine whose name should not be smirched with the suggestion of a dalliance with a Death Eater/traitor. (See her cross reference to the question about Lily Potter being a Death Eater and its response: "How dare you?") Putting Alice in the same category as Lily suggests that she won't recover and emphasizes the parallel between Neville and Harry; to all intents and purposes Neville, like Harry, has been "orphaned" by Voldemort or his agents. Note that Harry holds Voldemort ultimately responsible and sees Neville's tragedy as in some ways greater than his own--an important chance for Harry to develop compassion that would be lost if Neville's parents recovered. Carol, who firmly believes that Ron is a pureblood, Petunia and Dudley are Muggles, Snape is a good guy, Lupin is not ESE!, and we're all seeing clues that aren't there. Of course, I also believed all those points (except the last) even before the Mark Evans fiasco disillusioned me. From denisewcr at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 23:53:25 2004 From: denisewcr at yahoo.com (Denise Leblanc) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 16:53:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Is Sirius really dead? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040708235325.33682.qmail@web54101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105142 Hi everyone, I am new to this list, my name is Denise. I just got done reading the interview of JKR from March and she would not commit to Sirus being dead. But did say his brother is dead. HHHHMMMM Denise --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From melaniertay at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 23:44:18 2004 From: melaniertay at yahoo.com (Mel) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 23:44:18 -0000 Subject: Percy Weasly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105143 > We don't know how much he was told of what really happened. My guess > would be not much. As I said in another post, if Percy had been > presented with the whole truth beforehand, he would have been able to > see Fudge's manoeuver for what it was *himself*. He's not stupid. I'm not sure I agree. Who was present in the hospital wing when all of this was discussed and explained? Ron, Bill and Molly Weasley. I think it an extreme long shot that they didn't tell Percy what they had witnessed and what Fudge admitted to (including giving Crouch Junior the Kiss, Snape's tattoo coming back, etc.)prior to his leaving the house (which we know was the first week after the break, but not the first day). Maybe Percy is stupid. "Mel" From aandj at labyrinth.net.au Thu Jul 8 22:40:50 2004 From: aandj at labyrinth.net.au (Jocelyn Grunow) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 09:40:50 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wands? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105144 > Sad1199 wrote: >> Maybe whatever is in >> Hermione's wand (I am thinking not a Phoenix feather-Fawlke's mate >> or not) is something that enhances Harry's powers. What was in >> Lily's wand? How many wands have the same core? >From memory, Ollivander says in PS that he makes wand cores out of three things: phoenix feathers, unicorn hair and dragon heartstrings. Of course we don't know what other manufacturers may use, but as he seems to be the most prominent wand-maker, I would say that these 3 are the most usual types of core. As Harry has a phoenix feather and Ron had (in his old wand at least) a unicorn hair, possibly - for symmetry - Hermione has a dragon heartstring? No idea on Lily's wand. Jocelyn From spinelli372003 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 21:28:46 2004 From: spinelli372003 at yahoo.com (spinelli372003) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 21:28:46 -0000 Subject: Showing my ignorance (was Homosexuality in HP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105145 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ladyramkin2000" wrote: > Hope this isn't going too OT, but who is Jane Hathaway? > > Sylvia Don't know who Jane Hathaway is in the harry pottr books but in the US there was a sitcom on tv called the Beverly Hillbillys ad Jane Hathaway was Mr. Drysdales secretary at the bank. is that who your looking for? I think the actress who played her died though. sherry From lavaluvn at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 21:25:50 2004 From: lavaluvn at yahoo.com (lavaluvn) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 21:25:50 -0000 Subject: Defending Percy ( was Percy Weasley ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105146 > Mel also wrote : > > Also, both McGonagall and Snape heard Barty Crouch's confession, so > > it wasn't just the word of DD and Harry. > > Del replies : > I don't remember reading that Snape and McGonagall told *anyone* about > what they had witnessed. And I don't remember either that it was > revealed to the WW that Barty Crouch Jr had not died in Azkaban. Fudge > knows that, but I'm pretty sure Percy, just like the rest of the WW, > ignores that fact, and hasn't heard anything from Snape or > McGonagall's mouth. > Now Andromeda: The fact that no inquiry is made and the evidence of witnesses to a confession never given should perhaps have been a bit suspicious that something was being covered up. IN fact, at the end of OOP, remember Dolores ranting as she's about to Crucio Harry: OOP US ed p747 "Somebody had to act," breathed Umbridge, as her wand came to rest pointing directly at Harry's forehead. "They were all bleating about silencing you somehow - discrediting you - but I was the one who actually did something about it...." Was Percy privy to this _plan_ to discredit Harry? Possibly not, but he certainly seems to be part of the team. snip more > > Del replies : > It's childish to wait for someone you love to come back without ever > making any peace gesture, no matter who was the offender. Harry did it > in GoF with Ron, and it was childish, but Harry *was* a kid. Arthur > should know better than to wait for Percy to come back. Percy is > barely an adult, he's a very young man full of conflicting instincts. > Arthur is much older and supposedly much wiser. He should try to show > more maturity than a 14-year-old kid. Andromeda: But there was at least one peace offering from the parents' side... remember Molly in tears at Christmas with her sweater returned unopened. I don't believe she ever insulted him, yet is still treated like vermin. Remember that Percy's father nearly DIED and Percy never even bothered to contact or visit? How important is his career to him? I think Ron has it right, Percy has put his own advancement over everything and anyone. Not good. From janedeau at mac.com Thu Jul 8 20:50:12 2004 From: janedeau at mac.com (Jane Deau) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:50:12 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6810EB4D-D120-11D8-9DB6-000D932805D4@mac.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105147 On Jul 8, 2004, at 1:18 PM, potioncat wrote: > Ah, it's that quote again. ^-^ This is the interview people use to > > show Snape will fall in love in book 7 and/or that he will be > > redeemed. You must go back to that interview and read again. Some > > important information was left out that Carol quoted. Okay I read the interview and from what she said I am thinking that Snape put his life on the line to save Harry, thus redeeming himself and that Neville will become a teacher at Hogwarts. Not that those two ideas are new to anyone here. Great interview. Thanks for pointing me towards it. -Jane Deau [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gertgal at aol.com Thu Jul 8 19:37:53 2004 From: gertgal at aol.com (Ginger) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 19:37:53 -0000 Subject: James's death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105148 --- Arya: > Plus, we have to > believe James said and tried a few things to warrant Voldemort > admitting that 'he fought bravely'. He certainly didn't fall in a > heartbeat like Cedric did--James fought his death, IMO. I agree that James fought his death, but I wonder how. AK is supposed to be unfightable, unblockable (Moody). A physical fight, to wrest Voldemort's wand for his grasp? Sure, he fought, but how does one fight AK gielreta-the perfect compilation From karenbjhess at hotmail.com Thu Jul 8 21:08:57 2004 From: karenbjhess at hotmail.com (Karen Hess) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 17:08:57 -0400 Subject: CoS question was: Re: Dumbledore evil?? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105149 Pippin wrote: The Chamber is most likely one of those magical objects with a mind of its own. I'm not sure anyone could find it unless it wanted to be found. The snake marking on the tap could be like the Dark Mark or the writing on the Marauders Map--only visible under certain circumstances. Riddle *wanted* Harry to enter the Chamber--if he hadn't, perhaps Harry would have searched in vain, parselmouth or not. Now KB(me): If understand correctly, this statement seems to make a distinction between "finding" the chamber and "unsealing" it, which I think is an important point (IMHO). Looking at canon for the history of the Chamber, Prof. Binns says (pp.114-115, CoS, Can. ed.): "Slytherin, according to the legend, sealed the Chamber of Secrets so that none would be able to open it until his own true heir arrived at the school. The heir alone would be able to unseal the Chamber of Secrets, unleash the horror within, and use it to purge the school of all who were unworthy to study magic. ... Naturally, the school has been searched for evidence of such a chamber, many times, by the most learned witches and wizards. It does not exist." Both Harry and Tom were able to unseal the chamber because they spoke Parseltongue. But to unseal it, one first has to find it. Seems to me, for HRH -- or should I say HR, even though Hermione played a role before she was petrified -- finding the Chamber was mostly a fortunate combination of circumstances, which an earlier poster (sorry, forget who) has already said. One of the most fortunate (i.e., fateful) circumstances for HRH was that Diary!Tom had already opened the Chamber (through Ginny) and released the Basilisk. Without that, I don't think they would have found the entrance to the Chamber. So IMO it's not so much that the Chamber *wanted* to be found as that it already *had* been found. (How? Diary!Tom says only that it took him "five whole years" (CoS, p. 230) to find it; he does not say how.) Even if past witches and wizards had been able to find the snake symbol scratched on the tap (or wherever it may have appeared before the plumbing was installed), we don't know that they would have been able to unseal the passage to the Chamber... I'm not sure where I'm going with this. It led me to all sorts of questions about the nature of Parselmouths and their relationship to Salazar Slytherin. But I think that's a different topic, so I will end here. KB _________________________________________________________________ MSN Premium with Virus Guard and Firewall* from McAfee Security : 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines From Batchevra at aol.com Fri Jul 9 00:02:53 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 20:02:53 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Think on This...... Message-ID: <15b.3969a07e.2e1f3aad@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105150 In a message dated 7/8/04 6:38:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, norek_archives2 at hotmail.com writes: >I'd like to disagree with some parts of this: Aragog doesn't exactly count as a victory since he and Ron would have been Spider Chow if not for being rescued by the Ford Anglia; he did not actually ride Buckbeak in the book (movie contamination, although a really good scene!); and almost anyone does better with the Centaurs than Hermione did -- the only one worse was Umbridge. :) Janet Anderson< Harry did ride Buckbeak in the book. POA pg 89-90 UK version. Chapter called Talons and Tea Leaves. Buckbeak flew him once around the paddock and then headed back to the ground. There is more before and after but I figured you could get that Harry did fly on Buckbeak and started the relationship between them so that it set the tone for later in the book. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 19:05:18 2004 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 19:05:18 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105151 "K": > > Royal Albert Hall Appearance > > June 26 2003 > > Q&A with Stephen Fry > > > > SF: Where as most of the character, like Snape for example, are very > > hard to > > love but there's a sort of ambiguity [...]in the first book we > thought he was the evil one and a > > aprt form Voldemort the most evil and in the second we thought that > > and slowly we just get this idea that maybe he's not so bad after all > > > > JKR: Yeees. You shouldn't think he's too nice, let me just say that. > > > > SF: Right I shall bear that in mind. Worth watching Serverus Snape > > > > JKR: He's worth keeping and eye on, definitely Stefanie: > She is yet again telling us to keep our eye on Snape. Very > interesting...and we needn't think he's too nice? Katie: Hmmm... At this point, I don't think JKR would trick us about which side Snape is on; I believe he's firmly on the side of the Order. So I'd guess that it would be something in the past-- something we don't know yet-- that she's hinting at. But what could be so terrible that it would make her constantly temper her liking for Snape? I'd guess he was indirectly responsible for or somehow complicit in someone's death, back in his DE days. Maybe, just possibly... someone like the Potters? -Katie who likes Snape, but knows that JKR isn't telling us something From musicofsilence at hotmail.com Fri Jul 9 00:23:38 2004 From: musicofsilence at hotmail.com (lifeavantgarde) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 00:23:38 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105153 > > > SF: Right I shall bear that in mind. Worth watching Serverus Snape > > > > > > JKR: He's worth keeping and eye on, definitely > > Stefanie: > > > She is yet again telling us to keep our eye on Snape. Very > > interesting...and we needn't think he's too nice? > > > Katie: > > Hmmm... At this point, I don't think JKR would trick us about which > side Snape is on; I believe he's firmly on the side of the Order. So > I'd guess that it would be something in the past-- something we don't > know yet-- that she's hinting at. But what could be so terrible that > it would make her constantly temper her liking for Snape? > > I'd guess he was indirectly responsible for or somehow complicit in > someone's death, back in his DE days. Maybe, just possibly... someone > like the Potters? > > -Katie > who likes Snape, but knows that JKR isn't telling us something Stefanie: I don't know...I wouldn't put it past JKR... ...Buuuut, you've hit on one of the theories I can't seem to unstick my mind from. I *do* believe that Snape knew that Peter was the spy (- His being a spy during the year the Peter was feeding information -His Occlumens powers rending him trustworthy in LV's eyes [no reason to keep things from him] -His decided lack of anything but personal remarks in the Shrieking Shack -His determination to soul-rape Lupin and Snape before they met with anyone from the MoM -His being friendly with Lucius Malfoy even though Malfoy is friendly with Karkaroff who knows from being at his trial that Snape was a spy for Dumbledore ...and more...I've had an essay on the back burner but I'm a procrastinator of the first order) My main gripe is that we've not been given a precedence for Snape containing his vindictiveness. Could he be ambitious for his own preservation? From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Jul 9 00:26:03 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 00:26:03 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105154 > > Stefanie writes: > > YAY! Someone as interview-nuts as me! I did the same thing with both Snape and Lupin to try and glean evidence of a not ese!Lupin Xo) << Of course I also have an archive of Lupin quotes. > Stefanie: > > > I gleaned from this (and I know "Snapeguements" go on for pages and pages in this group) the very exact quote "this particular teacher does abuse his power" -- I think in this JKR basically denotes Snape's teaching method's as cruel. He's not trying to mould young minds in a tough manner...he's abusing power. The end.< Pippin: Why is that the end? I agree JKR wants it understood that Snape is a cruel and abusive person. Okay, but does that have to mean he can't be loyal to Dumbledore? I suppose the question is, if he's against Voldemort's abuse of power, why doesn't Snape do more to keep his own behavior within acceptable bounds? But the thing is, there's nothing in his environment to tell him his behavior isn't acceptable. McGonagall also uses intimidation and verbal abuse ("abysmally foolish") and inspires terror in some. Despite her reputation for fairness, she clearly does favor her own House. Whatever his faults in our eyes or in the eyes of his creator, Snape has the respect of his colleagues, the confidence of his boss, and the honor of leading Slytherin House. He's not popular with non-Slytherin students and the feeling is mutual, but it's clear from Phineas's attitude that neither popularity nor an affection for students is required of the Hogwarts staff. So I don't really see that Snape would be tempted to rejoin Voldemort because he can't control himself. He can--just not to our standards, which are not being imposed on him. > Stefanie: > > > Another quote that had me staring at the screen with one eyebrow raised! "deeply horrible"? "DEEPLY"? Not a light word to use. Now I do believe, as JKR has stated, that Snape is a complex character...One really can't argue that at all, but as to the nature of his complexity? Is it really all that benign? > > "K": > > I really wish she wouldn't have said that. ;-) Deeply horrible. What more can she say? She still hasn't called him evil so I'm hanging onto the hope that he isn't. Not that I think she would tell us at this point if he were. > > Stefanie: > > > Erm...Putting Snape into the category of Gilderoy Lockhart and the Dursleys? What company! > IMO, this is the classic magician's trick of misdirection. Of course JKR wants us to keep our eye on Snape and shudder about how horrible he is--because Lupin doesn't bear close inspection at all, at all. Pippin From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Fri Jul 9 00:36:34 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 00:36:34 -0000 Subject: Think on This...... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105155 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Janet Anderson" wrote: > Aisbelmon at h... said: > > >It will be a turning point for Harry to realise that his potential > >lies in his love for all things and his impressive list of > >challenging victories will be noted which I think we should read > >carefully; Aragog, Fawkes, Dobby, Snakes, the snitch (based on a > >magical creature) he was the first to ride Buckbeak, he understands the Centaurs like not even Hermione can. > > > Janet: > I'd like to disagree with some parts of this: Aragog doesn't exactly count as a victory since he and Ron would have been Spider Chow if not for being rescued by the Ford Anglia; Hi Janet. Valky (Aisbelmon) says: I knew I needed to contextualise the list a dot more! I apologise for my vagueness in referring to the word victory. For Aragog I meant victory in the sense that Harry had met the challenge of approaching and successfully communicating with Aragog, quite a feat, albeit it one that endangered his life. And just aside I had very much considered adding the Ford Anglis to the list given its apparent sentience and the fact that it rescued Harry and Ron. But I figured it was kind of an Arthur, Fred & George victory as well as Ron and Harry, so I didn't. So you see I am loosley using the term victory to indicate overcoming a challenging step on the way to a healthy connection / or relationship with the creature. Janet says: he did not actually ride Buckbeak in the book > (movie contamination, although a really good scene!); Valky: Sorry he does actually, and I agree movies can confuse us with these things, I've seen and been it sooo often. So no biggie. In my saying this I was also referring loosley to the part in POa when timeturned!Hermione still fears Buckbeak so that she, as good as, pleads to Harry that he do the approaching of Buckbeak and bowing etc because he is better at it. Janet: > and almost anyone does > better with the Centaurs than Hermione did -- the only one worse was Umbridge. :) > Valky: Yes, Hermione was a very bad example, I am sorry. I believe centaurs don't really like to be called magical "creatures" as the term assumes superiority of humankind, so I had better rephrase that entirely and say Hermione would be S*%^te at interrace relations, but we already knew that. As for Harry his victory in understanding the centaurs is a step in moving toward a healthy relationship with them, I am not saying for sure he'll go the whole yard but the progress he has made in his encounters, (Only in his own understanding of them, I mean, not actually in the way they relate to him.) Is a promising victory, unlike many have achieved, including Hermione who will probably get an O in COMC anyway but for different reasons. Hope that clears up a little bit of that for you Janet, Thanks and Best to You Valky From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 00:47:20 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 00:47:20 -0000 Subject: slytherin sides with Hogwarts? In-Reply-To: <9129082A-CC8F-11D8-B47F-000D932805D4@mac.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105156 Jane Deau wrote: If I remember correctly, and if I don't I am sure someone here can correct me, didn't both Dumbledore and the Sorting Hat say something about all the Houses at Hogwarts will have to work together to defeat Voldemort? I think then that that will have to happen. It seems by the seventh year Draco will be the (at least unofficial) leader of his House and for Slytherin to side with Hogwarts rather than the Death Eaters it may be because Draco has a change of heart. Or everyone in Slytherin but Draco and his cronies side with Hogwarts and Draco ultimately suffers a terrible comeuppance. Thoughts? Carol: You're right about the Sorting Hat (see "The sorting Hat's New Song" in OoP. As for Draco as unofficial lead of Slytherin, that could well be. He's already the leader of a gang of Slytherins, including Pansy Parkinson as well as Crabbe and Goyle (but apparently not Theodore Nott). However, the *official* head of Slytherin is Snape, and unless Dumbledore is wrong (which I doubt), Snape is on the good side, which means that we're probably going to see some sort of conflict between Snape and Draco, if not in Book 6 then in Book 7. Maybe that will be the moment when Harry and Ron finally learn where Snape's loyalties really lie. (I also see Theo Nott playing some sort of role--the good guy mistaken for a bad guy in HBP? I hope not. We've seen that card played too many times.) Draco in Azkaban with Daddy, anyone? (Probably not. Lucius will probably escape in book 6.) Draco, the incredible bouncing serpent, courtesy of Snape? (Not permanent enough, and Snape doesn't transfigure his students, however much he may threaten or insult them.) I give up. But I think a "comeuppance" for Draco is a lot more likely than a "change of heart." And although I foresee conflict between Draco and Snape, I think the "comeuppance" will ultimately come from Ron. Carol From musicofsilence at hotmail.com Fri Jul 9 00:53:44 2004 From: musicofsilence at hotmail.com (lifeavantgarde) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 00:53:44 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105157 ------------- > > > Stefanie writes: > > > YAY! Someone as interview-nuts as me! I did the same thing > with both Snape and Lupin to try and glean evidence of a not > ese!Lupin Xo) << > Pippin: > Of course I also have an archive of Lupin quotes. > > > Stefanie: > > > > > I gleaned from this (and I know "Snapeguements" go on for > pages and pages in this group) the very exact quote "this > particular teacher does abuse his power" -- I think in this JKR > basically denotes Snape's teaching method's as cruel. He's not > trying to mould young minds in a tough manner...he's abusing > power. The end.< > > Pippin: > > Why is that the end? I agree JKR wants it understood that Snape > is a cruel and abusive person. Okay, but does that have to mean > he can't be loyal to Dumbledore? ---------------- Stefanie: I don't think this quote can be used as a pull either way as to Snape's loyalty. I simply was using it to illustrate JK's concrete belief that Snape's teaching methods aren't "tough love." They're an abuse of power and an abuse of the students. ------------- > Pippin: > I suppose the question is, if he's against Voldemort's abuse of > power, why doesn't Snape do more to keep his own behavior > within acceptable bounds? But the thing is, there's nothing in his > environment to tell him his behavior isn't acceptable. McGonagall > also uses intimidation and verbal abuse ("abysmally foolish") > and inspires terror in some. Despite her reputation for fairness, > she clearly does favor her own House. ---------------- Stefanie: Problem is, this "abysmally foolish" quote was used only towards Gryffindors (as it was pertaining to "Which person, which abysmally foolish person wrote down this week's passwords and left them lying around?" in PoA) There's no sign of House favoring there. Also, in this situation, it *is* fair for her to say this -- aaand doesn't reflect on her behavior in a classroom as this is not in a teaching situation. In this situation, Hogwarts is obviously in danger of penetration as there has already been an attack on the Fat Lady. Leaving a list of passwords around *was not* smart (McGonagall doesn't know that Crookshanks filched the list from what Neville thought was a safe place). And in further defense, it appears that a student almost got knifed by a then-notorius murderer. A bit of a stressful situation, no? ------------------- > Pippin: > Whatever his faults in our eyes or in the eyes of his creator, > Snape has the respect of his colleagues, the confidence of his > boss, and the honor of leading Slytherin House. ------------------- Stefanie: Again, while I want to take Dumbledore's trust as gold, there have been situations where he hasn't placed his trust in the right person at all. While this very well may not be the case in Snape's case, it cannot be dismissed as invalid in his situation. Even in interviews, JKR has only confirmed that "Dumbledore believes his story." Not that it's true or not. -------------- > Pippin: > He's not popular > with non-Slytherin students and the feeling is mutual, but it's > clear from Phineas's attitude that neither popularity nor an > affection for students is required of the Hogwarts staff. So I don't > really see that Snape would be tempted to rejoin Voldemort > because he can't control himself. He can--just not to our > standards, which are not being imposed on him. ----------------- Stefanie: Again, I don't use his teaching methods as reasons for his possible untrustworthiness...I have other things for that ;o) ----------------------- > > Stefanie: > > > Another quote that had me staring at the screen with one > eyebrow raised! "deeply horrible"? "DEEPLY"? Not a light word > to use. > Now I do believe, as JKR has stated, that Snape is a complex > character...One really can't argue that at all, but as to the > nature of his complexity? Is it really all that benign? > > > > "K": > > I really wish she wouldn't have said that. ;-) Deeply horrible. > What more can she say? She still hasn't called him evil so I'm > hanging onto the hope that he isn't. Not that I think she would tell > us at this point if he were. > > > > Stefanie: > > > Erm...Putting Snape into the category of Gilderoy Lockhart > and the Dursleys? What company! > > > Pippin > IMO, this is the classic magician's trick of misdirection. Of course > JKR wants us to keep our eye on Snape and shudder about how > horrible he is--because Lupin doesn't bear close inspection at > all, at all. ------------------------- Stefanie: On the contrary. If there's anyone out there who, after reading all five books, believes that any character doesn't deserve careful scrutinization, I'd be prepared to say that they didn't read carefully at all. Of course Lupin deserves a close look and I have read your posts on the matter. In the same vein, Snape's friendliness with Lucius Malfoy bears close watching; Karkaroff's being enlightened about his double-agent status bears close watching; his being at Hogwarts for 14 years and not being chastised (as far as we know) for his "abusing his power" (JK's words!) [IMO, a point towards him being harbored at "safe" Hogwarts after being exposed as a spy] bears close watching. JK's been anything but lucid in regards to Snape...that she doesn't comment concretely on his loyalties, *does* bear scrutinization. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 00:57:52 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 00:57:52 -0000 Subject: McGonagall's favouritism. Was: Re: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105159 Pippin wrote: snip. McGonagall also uses intimidation and verbal abuse ("abysmally foolish") and inspires terror in some. Despite her reputation for fairness, she clearly does favor her own House. snip. Alla: When does McGonagall clearly favour her own house? Yes, she got Harry on the team in the first year. She also took from her own house 150 points. We are yet to see Snape take a single point from his own house. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 01:02:52 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 01:02:52 -0000 Subject: Dean is Gary? In-Reply-To: <014501c460af$a093f190$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105160 Julie wrote: If my memory is correct, I read on a post several days ago that JKR said that Dean's name really is Gary? Is this true? If so, would someone point me in the right direction to read about it? Alina responded: All the information is on her website at http://www.jkrowling.co.uk. No, Dean's real isn't Gary, Gary is the name he was given in one of the earlier drafts of the story. He does however have a more complicated background than the story discloses, because Rowling said she didn't find an opportunity to insert it into the books. He is a half-blood rather than a muggle-born, and Rowling lists this information as taken out of her initial draft of book 2. Carol adds: Since JKR changed Dean's name, she may well have changed or eliminated the backstory, too. In other words, Dean may be the Muggleborn he is thought to be in CoS rather than a Half-blood who thinks he's a Muggleborn. (Consider the other ideas she's discarded, like having Hermione's father discover the Potters' bodies and Mafalda, the Slytherin Weasley. Those incidents and characters aren't canon; they're just trivia for HP fans.) IMO, until and unless she includes Dean's discarded backstory in the books, we should consider the CoS description of him as canon. ("My folks are Muggles, mate," as he says in OoP. Quoting from memory, but it relates to his parents not reading the Daily Prophet.) Carol, who will be very surprised if Dean is the HBP From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Fri Jul 9 01:05:47 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 01:05:47 -0000 Subject: Is Sirius really dead? and (Welcome to New Listmembers) In-Reply-To: <20040708235325.33682.qmail@web54101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105161 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Denise Leblanc wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I am new to this list, my name is Denise. I just got done reading the interview of JKR from March and she would not commit to Sirus being dead. But did say his brother is dead. > > HHHHMMMM > Denise > > > Hi Denise and Um Joer... um jojo... um... sorry ;) Our Argentinian friend Welcome to HP for Grown Ups I am Valky. About Sirius, well I guess speaking for most of us there is still much confusion and speculation to be had about Sirius supposed death. Personally, and again I think I echo much sentiment here, I think that the situation is that Sirius 'is gone' but he never really actually had a manifested 'mortal death' to speak of. The veil, it seems, is the doorway to deaths keep or arms or what have you, and so Sirius having fallen through it means that he has been taken by death, is in deaths arms, etc etc .... He has gone to the place where the dead go, so essentially is now one of them. I personally am sure that Sirius will communicate from the other side but thats another part of the story, really. So in answer is Sirius really dead? I think, Yes. But is that the end of Sirius part in the Series? I think absolutely, resoundingly, NO. Best to You from Valky From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Fri Jul 9 01:15:00 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 01:15:00 -0000 Subject: James's death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105162 : > --- Arya: > > Plus, we have to > > believe James said and tried a few things to warrant Voldemort > > admitting that 'he fought bravely'. He certainly didn't fall in a > > heartbeat like Cedric did--James fought his death, IMO. "Ginger" wrote > I agree that James fought his death, but I wonder how. AK is > supposed to be unfightable, unblockable (Moody). A physical fight, > to wrest Voldemort's wand for his grasp? Sure, he fought, but how > does one fight AK -------- Moody obnviously meant it is only unblockable via some sheild charm or other direct magical spell. Which--is totally misleading. We know that AK is indeed QUITE blockable. No, I'm not talking about Harry. I'm talking about the fact that we saw first hand in the MoM Atrium battle, a solid object can be used as a sheild to tak the AK blow. As can a Phoenix if one is handy. Plus, there is always dodging the spell. Basically, Moody lied. But it wasn't Moody was it? It might have been a case of Crouch seeking to mislead via hyperbole in claiming the Unforgivables are unblockable. I mean in one way it is correct because I think they usually learn curses and counter-curses, junxes and counter-jinxes, etc and these curses just happen to have no specific block spell, end spell or reverse spell. However, it is misleading--a gravely so--in that it failed to mention one can still always avoid these spells by simply avoiding being hit by the spell--whether that's running away, dodging the cast spell or hiding behind something, etc. Perhaps it's only misleading to us. Perhaps if you are student at Hogwarts, you already know these basic, curse-avoidance 101 tactics. I'm not sure. But I am sure that just because Lord Voldemort decided he wants to kill some one, doesn't mean that person will dumbly stand still to be a perfect target. Arya From Lynx412 at AOL.com Fri Jul 9 01:31:04 2004 From: Lynx412 at AOL.com (Lynx412 at AOL.com) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 21:31:04 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes Message-ID: <96.f456f4a.2e1f4f58@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105163 In a message dated 7/8/2004 8:04:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, anthyroserain at yahoo.com writes: > I'd guess he was indirectly responsible for or somehow complicit in > someone's death, back in his DE days. Maybe, just possibly... someone > like the Potters? I think this fits my thought about the opening chapter of HBP. If, in fact, JKR does show us just what happened...Harry seeing it through LVs eyes, perhaps, I suspect the first question he'll have for Snape is 'Why were you there?' Of course, if LV shows Harry anyone else but Wormtail as having been there, I will also immediately assume that particular person WASN'T there. The Other Cheryl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From marcuscason at charter.net Fri Jul 9 01:41:18 2004 From: marcuscason at charter.net (kyntor70) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 01:41:18 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105164 Katie wrote: Hmmm... At this point, I don't think JKR would trick us about which side Snape is on; I believe he's firmly on the side of the Order. So I'd guess that it would be something in the past-- something we don't know yet-- that she's hinting at. But what could be so terrible that it would make her constantly temper her liking for Snape? I'd guess he was indirectly responsible for or somehow complicit in someone's death, back in his DE days. Maybe, just possibly... someone like the Potters? Kyntor replies: Why would the reader need to "keep an eye on Snape," if the events in question were in the past? If you tell someone to keep an eye on someone else, you are expecting something to happen in the future. I do not like Snape, but I also do not believe that he will betray Dumbledore. I believe Snape feels something akin to a wizarding bond to Dumbledore for saving him (mainly from himself, but also from serving life in Azkaban) during the first rise of Voldemort. We have seen that although he is a pretty horrible person, he does have a sense of honor (trying to save Harry because he owed a wizard's debt to his father). I think that in the quote, JKR was talking more about Snape's character rather then which side he is on. From the way she has developed him, I would have to say that regardless of which side Snape is on, he is not a very good person. I think JKR wants us to keep that in mind when we assign motivations for his actions. Kyntor From pandrea100 at hotmail.com Fri Jul 9 00:17:23 2004 From: pandrea100 at hotmail.com (pandrea100) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 00:17:23 -0000 Subject: Death, Harry and Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105165 Ginger wrote: Could Voldemort somehow > encourage and then use Harry's explorations into to death to further > his own means? YES! This is my theory also. My best guess is that Sirius' mirror might be linked to this. Say Harry puts it together and takes to looking in it, trying to contact Sirius somehow. Voldemort, still being linked to him (I *think*, because he was only 'pushed out' temporarily, the link which made Harry feel V's anger etc should still be there), senses this and tries to use it. OR maybe it's actually nothing to do with Voldemort - maybe it's just another instance of the uncanny parallel between them that, at a similar age to Tom, Harry is also led to begin investigating death and eternal life. By the way, they also both have phoenix feather wands, maybe the wands were right for them because they 'sensed' that their owners would investigate death and rebirth? However - the crucial thing, I suggest, will be that Harry will pull back from this. Unlike Tom, he will realise he has to accept death and say goodbye to Sirius (and his parents). Maybe there will be a choice between wallowing in this and something to do with his friends who are alive. I can also see some objections to this theory though. Maybe it's a little too similar to the Mirror of Erised, where Harry had to learn to overcome the temptation to spend his days communing with the dead through that medium. Maybe it's even too similar to Ginny becoming possessed by DiaryTom (especially if Voldemort or a minion is behind the temptation) - but then again, this could also be used positively as Ginny (and maybe Luna?) could help pull Harry back from this, based on their experience. So far JK has not had to repeat storylines; but then, she does sometimes echo things from earlier books which turn out to be deliberately planted to set things up. If this storyline does come to pass (and no, I have no idea how the Half Blood Prince would fit in!), I think it would be really interesting. I think, too, that it would preclude the possibility of the rather gory "who's next to DIE?" theories. Pandrea From mbenkin at andrew.cmu.edu Fri Jul 9 00:29:52 2004 From: mbenkin at andrew.cmu.edu (vituperative404) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 00:29:52 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105166 Katie: > > Hmmm... At this point, I don't think JKR would trick us about which > side Snape is on; I believe he's firmly on the side of the Order. So > I'd guess that it would be something in the past-- something we don't > know yet-- that she's hinting at. But what could be so terrible that > it would make her constantly temper her liking for Snape? > > I'd guess he was indirectly responsible for or somehow complicit in > someone's death, back in his DE days. Maybe, just possibly... someone > like the Potters? Melanie: Well, I think the thing is that we're so ready to forgive Snape being a former DE that we haven't stopped to think what being a DE really means. According to Bellatrix-are-for-kids Lestrange in OoP, to cast an Unforgivable Curse "you need to realy want to cause pain-- to enjoy it. . ." (715). And we know from GoF that "a spot of Muggle-torture" was all the rage among the DE set. Add let's not forget the unsettling image of the Muggle women being forced to show their knickers to the general public in the beginning of GoF. For Snape to really have been a DE means that we have to come to grips with the fact that he probably witnessed rape, torture, and murder and did nothing to stop it, at the very least. And if he did participate in the festivities (and let's be honest, you probably had to kill kittens and burn down orphanages to even be a DE candidate), chances are that when he was casting Unforgivables around, *he meant it.* My guess is, one good flashback of Snape crucio-ing a Muggle toddler will be enough for even the most die-hard Snape advocates to start looking over the evidence for the Defense. And while I think Snape is endlessly entertaining and a complex character if there ever was one, anybody who's done torture/murder/what-have-you with a smile on their lips and a song in their heart is not going on my Christmas card list. Oh, and I'm new here, so Hello! :-) -Melanie From rockit_esq at msn.com Fri Jul 9 00:46:47 2004 From: rockit_esq at msn.com (rockit_esq) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 17:46:47 -0700 Subject: Aunt Petunia Message-ID: <009501c4654e$3799d760$9d87b604@jf6230b> No: HPFGUIDX 105167 I think someone posted here the other day that JK had said at one time that there was a character who would embrace their wizard ways after being away for a long time. I think this person is Aunt Petunia. I just picked up OotP again and in Chapter 2 there are quite a few references that lead me to believe this. First, she knows what dementors are. She said she learned about them from "them" (assuming James and Lily). Second, she asks "Back?" after HP says "He's back" (LV). "[HP] fully appreciated that Aunt Petunia was his mother's sister." (foreshadowing?) "All he knew was that he was not the only person in the room who had an inkling of what LV being back might mean." HP then describes Aunt Petunia as not looking at him with dislike or anger, but that her eyes were wide and fearful. Could be that she was afraid because he did kill her sister, but I think she must know more. Then I have a question. Aunt P is sent a howler. The voice is described as "awful." Who is it? I don't recall anyone's voice really being described, outside of Dumbledore's soothing voice and LV's high pitched voice. Roxanne From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 01:49:33 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 01:49:33 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105168 > Kyntor replies: > snip. > I think that in the quote, JKR was talking more about Snape's > character rather then which side he is on. From the way she has > developed him, I would have to say that regardless of which side > Snape is on, he is not a very good person. I think JKR wants us to > keep that in mind when we assign motivations for his actions. > Alla: I said that recently - I was doubting that being loyal to the Order makes Snape a good person. But now I think I want to contradict myself a little bit. :o) Well, not exactly contradict, but doubt, I suppose. The problem is that I think that Dumbledore's side is written as unquestionable Light and Voldemort's as unquestionable Dark. Luckily, People who fight on both sides are not Black and White (No, scratch that - I still perceive the Deatheaters as unquestionable villains, but people on Dumbledore's side have a lot of "greyness" in their characters, that is for sure). But, whether you are on the Dumbledore's side or not is used as a final test of your goodness, I think. It is like if you have a scrap of humanity left in you, you will fight against Voldemort, even if you are not really a good person. I keep coming back to Snape's betrayal. I think I also said that rather recently, but it bears repeating. Betrayal is a horrible thing to me, but does any of us really feel that Snape betrayed his firends and Master or more like he came to his senses when he came back to Dumbledore? From thrennish at gmail.com Fri Jul 9 02:00:16 2004 From: thrennish at gmail.com (Thren Summers) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 22:00:16 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hogsmeade: Sixth Year? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1ee818a8040708190030dd33f4@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105169 > Eustace_Scrubb: > It was kind of dodgy in the first place, being that Sirius > was Harry's godfather but never his guardian. Thren: Actually, he was. 'Well... your parents appointed me your guardian,' said Sirius stiffly. 'In case anything happened to them...' (POA, chapter 20 (pg 277, Canadian Ed.)) There was never any mention of another slip, so I think it might be good for the duration. Though I agree with whoever said that Hogsmeade trips might be cancelled- if not for everyone, at least for Harry. -- "Whatever is done cannot be undone. But whatever is lost can, sometimes, be found." From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 02:00:56 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 02:00:56 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105170 > Melanie wrote: snip. > My guess is, one good flashback of Snape crucio-ing a Muggle toddler > will be enough for even the most die-hard Snape advocates to start > looking over the evidence for the Defense. And while I think Snape > is endlessly entertaining and a complex character if there ever was > one, anybody who's done torture/murder/what-have-you with a smile on > their lips and a song in their heart is not going on my Christmas > card list. > > Oh, and I'm new here, so Hello! :-) > -Melanie Alla: I tell you one thing. Since I love redemption in the fictional characters, I can forgive him being a DE (only by value of him being a fictional character :)), but if we will know for sure that he participated in killings, I will be wanting to ask Snape apologists why is it easier to forgive a former murderer than a former school bully. Even if Sirius planned to kill Snape, which I don't think was true, this is soo not the same. From anita_hillin at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 02:02:27 2004 From: anita_hillin at yahoo.com (AnitaKH) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 19:02:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: James's death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040709020227.25227.qmail@web42103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105171 Arya: Plus, we have to believe James said and tried a few things to warrant Voldemort admitting that 'he fought bravely'. He certainly didn't fall in a heartbeat like Cedric did--James fought his death, IMO. "Ginger" wrote > I agree that James fought his death, but I wonder how. AK is supposed to be unfightable, unblockable (Moody). A physical fight, to wrest Voldemort's wand for his grasp? -------- Arya again: Moody obviously meant it is only unblockable via some shield charm or other direct magical spell. Which--is totally misleading. We know that AK is indeed QUITE blockable. No, I'm not talking about Harry. I'm talking about the fact that we saw first hand in the MoM Atrium battle, a solid object can be used as a shield to take the AK blow. As can a Phoenix if one is handy. Plus, there is always dodging the spell. [snip, snip, snip] I agree here, including the portion of the message I snipped that deals with the lack of a specific blocking spell, despite diversionary tactics. In addition, we're told the Unforgiveables aren't just casual spells one lazily pops off one's wand. Crouch!Moody tells us in class that all the students could point their wands at him, shout Avada Kedavra, and he wouldn't get so much as a nosebleed. Obviously, there must be strong intent behind the spell (see Harry attempting the Crucio in OOTP), and even if you're Voldemort, it's likely to take a bit of concentration. James would know this, and he might have tried distraction in addition to diversionary tactics when fighting him. James would undoubtedly try to keep LV focused on himself while he hopes Lily can escape. Now, the big question is, did LV have his own "distraction" in an accomplice? Enquiring minds want to know... akh, who's being highly distracted herself by two kittens she's babysitting for two weeks, espcially the one helping her type (gerroff, Reggie!) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Jul 9 02:15:45 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 02:15:45 -0000 Subject: Defy Four Times (Re: Fear and Valour ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105172 Jen said: > > Harry is the > > embodiment of the Phoenix song, in other words. His 'purity of > > heart' is so strong as to bring forth not only the Phoenix song, > but also the help he needs to defy Voldemort in the graveyard. > > And that leads me to wonder, Dumbledore and the Prophecy both > place such importance on how many times a person defies Voldemort. > Here's the balance issue again. If more and more people speak his > name and act in defiance of him, including his 'loyal' followers, > will it be like the dueling brother wands, as slowly, very slowly, > the fear gets pushed back onto Voldemort himself? Valky responded: > Yes thats quite what I am saying. And Voldemort will be revealed as > a pathetic frightened wretch, but even then noone will actually be > able to defeat him because he is made indestructable by Harrys > dominion at that point. > I know Harry would be merciful to the withered wretched LV/Tom. And > when he does he will have made the wisest choice of all, because he > will be standing in exactly the same scenario as LV did at Godrics > Hollow. > It would backfire on Harry, but he wont need to know this, he'll > make the right choice anyway. Jen: So equating the choice Voldemort made at Godric's Hollow, with what Harry would choose given a similar situation, will finally undo the spellform at the point of creation. That's pretty deep, Valky! And really good. I've often pictured a Dorian Grey moment at the end, where the full impact of the terror & hatred Voldemort has wrought will come back on him, something similar to what you depict above. You know, reading your thoughts made me realize what kind of ending I'm hoping for, that it won't just end with Harry winning or losing. I want to learn something from how JKR wraps up this series, and not something I would get on a greeting card--"Love conquers all" or the like. From interviews I've seen with JKR, she seems very pragmatic and not fluffy at all, so I don't think that's a worry! Thanks for responding, Valky. I'm making a mental note to look for clues related to your theory next time I do a read-through. Jen From meltowne at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 02:24:22 2004 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 02:24:22 -0000 Subject: Aunt Petunia In-Reply-To: <009501c4654e$3799d760$9d87b604@jf6230b> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105173 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rockit_esq" wrote: > Then I have a question. Aunt P is sent a howler. The voice > is described as "awful." Who is it? I don't recall > anyone's voice really being described, outside of > Dumbledore's soothing voice and LV's high pitched voice. > Dumbledore sent the Howler - HP figures it out when he's in the office at the end of the book. DD admits it was him. From MadameSSnape at aol.com Fri Jul 9 02:29:06 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 22:29:06 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes Message-ID: <8.5185c9de.2e1f5cf2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105174 In a message dated 7/8/2004 4:22:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, willsonkmom at msn.com writes: > The Connection > 12 October 1999 > J.K. Rowling Interview Transcript > Potioncat: Has anyone ever found an audio of that interview? It might help with our eternal discussion of redemptive vrs love. I also thought she was answering the redemptive comment. But now it does sound to me she's talking about love, as if the interviewer interrupted, but she didn't respond to him. ================== Sherrie here: Here 'tis - and if the link shouldn't work, you can find it by going to npr.org & searching the archives of The Connection: J. K. Rowling and the Harry Potter Series. Originally aired on October 12, 1999 Enjoy! Sherrie "Unless history lives in our present, it has no future." PRESERVE OUR CIVIL WAR BATTLEFIELDS! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From editor at texas.net Fri Jul 9 02:34:35 2004 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 21:34:35 -0500 Subject: Perspective on threads like the homosexuality one Message-ID: <009901c4655d$46fd8440$b459aacf@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 105175 Look what you people have brought me to. Searching my files for an old post I'd sent. [If you'd forced me to the Yahoo search function, well, then we'd have a real issue on our hands.] A bit of list history and perspective for those of you who may not have been here long enough to have seen a contentious thread. I posted the following excerpt in February 2003, in a thread called "Reason vs. Emotion." I do not reproduce it entirely, just some relevant points. Because threads like the homosexuality one occur with regularity, they are valid discussions, and they are also, to some, disturbing or offensive. This current one reminds me strongly of the one about the interpretation of GoF's graveyard scene as a rape. This was a lively discussion (worth finding in the archives), and reactions ranged from enthusiastic "I thought so too," to utter disgust, to "huh? where did you get *that*?" As I recall, it got loud, it may have gotten over the top, but it was a very good discussion in terms of exploration of other viewpoints and interpretations. The fact is, there are two parties involved in the act of reading. The writer is only one. The reader is another. Both bring their own feelings, histories, connotations, etc., to the work. So while the author's intent is of interest, it does not (and should not, in my opinion) dictate what the reader takes from the work. Articulate and well-constructed interpretations are the heart of literary analysis and discussion. But I digress. On to my excerpt. All comments are mine; I have removed those of the person I was addressing. I have not altered the number of posters I say the list now has, because of its amusing and historical value. Saturday, February 01, 2003 6:13 PM Re: [HPforGrownups] Reason versus Emotion Debates *are* highly thought out intellectual arguments. However, people getting hurt or offended is not inevitable. People get hurt or offended when one of two things happens: (a) the person making the argument takes a criticism of their *argument* as a criticism of *them* as a person; (b) the responder really does criticize the person and not their argument. Both of these involve a failure to recognize or respect the distance between a person and the argument the person is making. As an example: Poster A: I think Snape is a vampire Poster B: I think that theory is totally ludicrous because there's not really any canon support and besides, *some* of the characters have to be human, we're running out, Hagrid's half-giant and Lupin's a werewolf... This is perfectly acceptable. This is debate. Poster A should not feel attacked, even though their point has been challenged. But... Poster A: I think Snape is a vampire Poster B: I think anyone who thinks that is a total blithering idiot and should not appear in public unaccompanied. This is argument, but is not debate (at least not well done), and it is in this second case where feelings get hurt. Justly so. And on this list, generally, this Poster B would be Howlered or water ballooned. (It is not broadcast to the list when this occurs, by the way, so the rest of the list is often not aware of it, but the efforts of the Mods and elves to keep the tone polite are continuous.) Also--please don't confuse a topic being discussed with an attempt to convert you. Most of us would be delighted if our charming but stubbornly unswayable discussion partners would suddenly see the light and admit we were right. [Like there's no *way* Snape is anything but human.] But they don't, and they won't, and I'm not trying to make them. I'm just arguing my side real loud, because it's what I think, and I'm an emotional being myself. The world JKR has created does not exist, just as Tolkien's, Lewis', deLint's, etc., do not. But her world is incredibly well-constructed, populated with vivid characters we recognize, interacting in situations we can identify with, and denying this list the use of reason to dissect and discuss that world is unfair and unreasonable. An incredible infrastructure of guidelines and administrators has evolved on this list, because the people who formed it loved to discuss JKR's creations. They did not love flame wars, insults, or divisiveness. The debates you find here are detailed, intricate, engrossing, etc. -- but not rude. If personal attacks or hurt feelings happen, they are attended to. That said--no moderator or elf anywhere can protect someone from being oversensitive. If you know that you are, please take your own steps to protect yourself. There are 5700+ members of this list now; and there are reasonable rules to protect an atmosphere that reasonable people can debate in. If you know from the outset that your sensitivity will not allow you to move in this atmosphere unhurt, well, then, you knew that from the outset. ~Amandageist, the old, who recommends the old (very old) threads on gay characters in HP to those brave enough to use the Yahoo search function From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 9 02:39:08 2004 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 02:39:08 -0000 Subject: "His eyes are green..."Re: Toad Surveillance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105176 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, imamommy at s... wrote: > > imamommy: > > > > I was thinking about Trevor the toad, and I sort of had a Hermione > > moment where I had to get up and check the books, and I would like > to > > pose a theory that Trevor is at least one way in which DD is > keeping > > his eye on Harry I would like to think Trevor has more significance than > > just revealing Neville's character. > > > > Plausible theory, or do I need a course of Shock Spells at St. > Mungo's? > > > > imamommy > > I think that's a good theory, though I wonder if it is just Harry > that Trev is watching. After all, Neville, too could be a part of > the prophecy, so maybe, just maybe, Neville is far better protected > than we can imagine as well. Like having an heir and a spare. > > Meri imamommy, adding to her theory: One "small thing" I thought about form CoS today was the singing Valentine. The "His eyes are green as a fresh-pickled toad" bit. We still don't know who sent that message. We are left to believe it is Ginny, but we are never told so. Harry having Lily's green eyes is definitely significant, and this little toad reference might be a *very* subtle tip-off. I know there have been theories about who sent the Valentine and what the significance of the wording is; does anyone have anything to help support my ramblings? imamommy From jferer at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 02:39:39 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 02:39:39 -0000 Subject: The Opening Chapter of Book 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105177 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: > > My money is on Dudley or Petunia. There's magic in their ancestry, > > and Dudley especially being a wizard would really turn the Dursley's > > world upside-down, not to mention Harry's. Not much doubt which > house > > Dudders would find himself in, is there? > > GEO: Where has JKR or the novels said that either the Evans has magic > in their ancestry? Actually, "ancestry" is the wrong word. "Magic in the family" is what I should have said, because of Lily Evans Potter. From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 9 02:41:50 2004 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 02:41:50 -0000 Subject: Hogsmeade: Sixth Year? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105178 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > Pandrea: > > Now that Sirius is dead, will the permission slip he signed for > > Harry to go to Hogsmeade still stand? > imamommy: I think it will be good enough for DD. From MadameSSnape at aol.com Fri Jul 9 02:49:06 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 22:49:06 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes Message-ID: <9.2db11d19.2e1f61a2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105179 In a message dated 7/8/2004 10:30:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, MadameSSnape at aol.com writes: J. K. Rowling and the Harry Potter Series. Originally aired on October 12, 1999 ============= Sherrie again: :::sigh::: Should've checked first - the link seems to be dead. I ran a search at npr.org, came up with a couple of interviews JKR did with Margot Adler (how funny - a Witch interviewing JKR!), a stint on the National Press Club, & a few other references - but not The Connection. Foo. Sherrie "Unless history lives in our present, it has no future." PRESERVE OUR CIVIL WAR BATTLEFIELDS! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From clr1971 at alltel.net Fri Jul 9 02:52:36 2004 From: clr1971 at alltel.net (Christina in GA) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 22:52:36 -0400 Subject: Harry's Firebolt References: <1089275454.4483.51710.m18@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <021d01c4655f$cade95e0$c800000a@crouton> No: HPFGUIDX 105180 >Amey: >If I remember right, Hagrid foes to Bank with Harry in SS/PS, and >the Goblin just asks whether he has Key for Harry's vault. That's >it, no identification needed. Also, as for Sirius, I am thinking of >internet shopping. Christina: Ha,ha, Internet shopping : ) In PoA Sirius says he sent Crookshanks to the owl post office in Hogsmeade to order the Firebolt by mail. He says he told them to send the broom to Harry but take the money from his own vault. Now I would think whatever salesclerk recieves that note would have said something --- It's morning in Diagon Alley and Quality Quidditch Supplies has just received their morning mail via owl post. The clerk on duty that day sorts the mail, putting bills in a stack to give to the owner, tossing the junk mail - "Quality Brooms at Rock Bottom Wholesale Prices! Watch Your Profits Soar!" -- and sees an order form that was part of an ad placed in the Daily Prophet the previous week. "Hey, Mr. Shopowner, sir, I have a mail order for a Firebolt to send to Harry Potter at Hogwarts. It's from a Sirius Black and he wants us to get the money from his vault at Gringott's." "What!" Mr. Shopowner yells out. "Give me that note! We must contact the Ministry of Magic at once! Sirius Black is a wanted man!" Now, the salesclerk may be a recent graduate or maybe a part-timer working for spending money to buy his own Firebolt and maybe he doesn't read the paper or listen to the WWN so he doesn't know who Sirius Black is so he fills the order and never says anything to Mr. Shopowner. Gringotts probably doesn't care and the shop wants their money. But if the clerk mentioned it to his boss you would think the boss would have recognized the name. Christina in GA From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 03:00:34 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 03:00:34 -0000 Subject: Was Scabbers an illegal pet? (was: 24 hours again) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105181 Several people have quoted this provision from the Hogwarts letter in SS/PS with regard to whether a rat is allowed: "Students may bring an owl OR a cat OR a toad." > Christelle commented: > Safe if it means that only one pet is allowed (Hagrid would try to > bring many more), a rat is not allowed. Carol: If you mean that the sentence has two possible interpretations, a) Only one pet is allowed and b) only an owl or a cat or a toad is allowed, I agree, but I want to point out that the two aren't mutually exclusive. b) implies a), certainly, but a) doesn't necessarily imply b). In other words, if we interpret the sentence literally as an absolute rule, then Ron (and perfect Percy before him) is breaking the rules, as was Lee Jordan with his tarantula. OTOH, if the letter is simply stating that only one pet is allowed and is listing the three most common WW pets on the assumption that students will also understand it to apply to other pets not listed, then having Scabbers, and only Scabbers, isn't breaking any rules. Having both Scabbers and Pigwidgeon would be. (I know the circumstances in which Ron acquired Pigwidgeon; I'm not saying that he would or could have had both at the same time; this is a hypothetical example.) Surely both McGonagall and Dumbledore have known about Scabbers since Percy was a first-year and neither of them chose to apply the "rule" literally. It would, in fact, have been cruel to the little boy to deny him the only pet his parents could afford, one that (chances are) followed him home one day rather than being bought in a store. Having allowed Percy to keep Scabbers for seven years, they could hardly deny Ron the same privilege (though I wonder why they didn't notice that he was living an unusually long time). Having allowed both Percy and Ron to keep Scabbers, they could hardly deny Lee his tarantula. So even if the "rule" was originally intended to be taken literally, Dumbledore and McGonagall transformed it into a guideline. (Here are the preferred pets. Please bring only one.) Now if someone had tried to bring in a pet dog, perhaps they'd have enforced the guideline a bit more strictly. In general, though, McGonagall is what might be called a "loose interpretationist," one who enforces the spirit rather than the letter of the law. She may be strict, but she bends the rules (first-years are not allowed their own brooms) when it suits her needs or wishes. (IMO, she'd have signed Harry's Hogsmeade permission form if the wording had been subject to interpretation, but there was no getting around the fact that she wasn't Harry's parent or guardian.) Now if someone had tried to bring an unusual pet into Slytherin, Snape might have chosen to enforce the rule, considering the wording "owl OR cat OR toad" as absolute, and his student would probably have had to ship the rat or tarantula home via owl, hoping that the pet would survive the journey. But from her perspective and Dumbledore's, Scabbers was not an illegal pet. Either that or, out of kindness to the Weasleys, they chose to turn a blind eye to the violation. Carol From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 03:04:51 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 03:04:51 -0000 Subject: SHIP. Re: Homosexuality in HP In-Reply-To: <019E903E.4080FB87.4B073798@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105182 snip. > Oryomai > --There *cannot* be a Sirius/Severus SHIP! Severus is mine! MINE!! Alla: Talia, they are both mine. :o) Of course Sirius was jealous when he called Severus 'Malfoy's lap dog" :) From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Jul 9 03:06:05 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 03:06:05 -0000 Subject: McGonagall's favouritism. Was: Re: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105183 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > Pippin wrote: > > snip. > > McGonagall also uses intimidation and verbal abuse ("abysmally > foolish") and inspires terror in some. Despite her reputation for > fairness, she clearly does favor her own House. > > snip. > > > > > Alla: > > When does McGonagall clearly favour her own house? Yes, she got Harry on the team in the first year. She also took from her own house 150 points. We are yet to see Snape take a single point from his own house.< We also have yet to see Snape press Dumbledore to have a first year placed on the Slytherin Quidditch team, buy a top of the line broomstick for one of his players, or bend the rule about first years having their own broomsticks. Despite Draco's stated desire to get on the team, he has to wait till second year and the Slytherin's new brooms are courtesy of Lucius, not Snape. McGonagall also told the Ministry that Hermione was a model student who would never misuse a time-turner, which rather implies a certain willful blindness to rule-breaking not unlike Snape's. I am not saying that McGonagall is as egregiously unfair as Snape is, only that this kind of thing doesn't raise any eyebrows at Hogwarts. Pippin From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Fri Jul 9 03:14:29 2004 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 03:14:29 -0000 Subject: FILK: A Possibility Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105184 A Possibility To the tune of For Every One Who Feels Inclined (aka And All Shall Equal Be) from Gilbert & Sullivan's The Gondoliers Dedicated to Pixieberry The various candidates for the role of co-titular Book Six protagonist step forth to proselytize on their own behalf. ALL To every one before or since Jo Rowling has been giving hints That one of our group might be the Prince. A possibility. KRUM The Quidditch star with soaring broom? LUPIN The werewolf howling at the moon? LUCIUS The suave DE with silver spoon? ALL THREE: We're possibilities. SEAMUS The Gryffindor with Muggle dad COLIN The Gryffindor with Kodak clad NEVILLE The Gryffindor whose folks went mad ALL THREE: We're possibilities. GODRIC GRYFFINDOR The one who Hogwarts School founded KARKAROFF The one who from the Dark Lord fled QUIRRELL The one who they all thought was dead ALL THREE We're possibilities! HAGRID The giant with the monster pet? BAGMAN The gambler who loves to bet-- MASKED FIGURE Or somebody who you never met ALL THREE: All possibilities! ALL To every one before or since Jo Rowling has been giving hints That one of our group might be the Prince A possibility. Search high, search low, For ev'ry tableaux's A possibility! The werewolf howling at the moon? The suave DE with silver spoon? The Gryffindor with Muggle dad The Gryffindor whose folks went mad The one who Hogwarts School founded The one who they all thought was dead The giant with the monster pet? Or somebody who we never met To every one, etc. Search high, search low, For ev'ry tableaux's A possibility! Then hail, O Prince! Whichever one you are Jo says you ain't One who gives or gets scars Then hail, O Prince! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From anita_hillin at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 03:16:58 2004 From: anita_hillin at yahoo.com (AnitaKH) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 20:16:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's Firebolt In-Reply-To: <021d01c4655f$cade95e0$c800000a@crouton> Message-ID: <20040709031658.36673.qmail@web42102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105185 Amey: If I remember right, Hagrid goes to Bank with Harry in SS/PS, and the Goblin just asks whether he has a Key for Harry's vault. That's it, no identification needed. Also, as for Sirius, I am thinking of internet shopping. Christina: In PoA Sirius says he sent Crookshanks to the owl post office in Hogsmeade to order the Firebolt by mail. He says he told them to send the broom to Harry but take the money from his own vault. Now I would think whatever sales clerk receives that note would have said something... [snip of clever scenario] akh: Somehow, when I read Sirius' explanation, I read it that he wrote the note "from" Harry as well as "shipping instructions" to Harry. In other words, Sirius sent Crookshanks with a note from "Harry," requesting a Firebolt, paid from funds in the vault of Sirius Black, Harry's guardian. We don't know that the WW has attorneys and public records, but if they do, both Quality Quidditch and Gringotts could verify that information. akh, with help from Reggie and Ruby, the kittens --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From nadinesaintamour at hotmail.com Fri Jul 9 03:27:11 2004 From: nadinesaintamour at hotmail.com (catimini15) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 03:27:11 -0000 Subject: Why Sirius was Chosen as Godparent & Sirius' sacrifice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105186 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > In post #103685, Kneasy said this about Godparents in the UK: > > "The Godfather bit I consider to be a red > herring. In the UK 'Godfather' is a purely symbolic title and confers > no rights nor places responsibilities/obligations on the recipient." > > I've been thinking about this one, because I don't agree it's a red > herring. I think this is another point that was supposed to be > misinterpreted in POA when we first find out about it, just like > Padfoot is mistaken for the Grim, only to discover the true > signigicance later on. > > While I trust Kneasy's explanation of Godparents in RL UK, here are > some thoughts about it in the WW. > > First, the term seems to imply guardianship. Sirius is considerd a > legitimate guardian when signing the form Harry needs to go to > Hogsmeade. In OOTP, during the fight with Molly over Harry's 'need > to know,' Sirius feels he has a legal right to make decisions for > Harry, much as the Weasleys do for their children. Notice Molly > doesn't dispute that Sirius has some claim on making decisions for > Harry, only that his fitness as a guardian is in question. > > Taking that information, I started thinking again about Lily & James > choosing a guardian for Harry. This wasn't a hypothetical situation > in their case, as it is for most of us with children. We don't > *really* expect both parents to die at the same time, but for James > & Lily this was a very real possibility. > > Not only that, they are choosing a guardian for Harry, a baby with a > Prophecy hanging over his head. A child who will undoubtedly be > targeted by Voldemort & live a life of danger. Anyone agreeing to > guardianship of Harry is agreeing to a life of possible danger and > death themselves, not something your average citizen will take on! > > Looking for someone to fulfill these qualifications leads James & > Lily to Sirius. Who better? He possesses all the negative traits > Kneasy lists (at a drop of a hat, I might add ), but also has > some unique qualifications in this case: Loyal to James & Lily? > Check. Brave? Check. In the Order and safe to tell about the > Prophecy? Check. Willing to take on the task of guarding the One > with the Power? Check. Willing to die for Harry? Check. (SNIP) Now me (Nadine) : I found these lines in PoA ! Chapter 26, The Demetor's Kiss, Sirius says (to Harry) : ?I don't know if anyone ever told you - I'm your godfather.? Harry (to Sirius) : ?Yeah, I knew that !? Sirius (to Harry again) : ?Well... your parents appointed me your guardian (...) If anything happened to them...? I agree with Kneasy that Godfather is probably a purely symbolic title but it seems Sirius was, indeed, Harry's official Guardian. Because he has been considered a dangerous murderer for the last 14 years, Sirius never could fulfill his duties as a guardian. Well, he did, as best as he could, when the truth came out about his innocence (in the very secret cirle of the Order). I think it would have been possible for Harry to live with Sirius if Sirius' name would have been cleared before the unfortunate events in OotP and if Harry did not need the blood protection of Petunia. Everything is ruined now that Sirius is dead... Hope that helps ! Nadine From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Fri Jul 9 03:33:40 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 03:33:40 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105187 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vituperative404" wrote: Melanie: > Well, I think the thing is that we're so ready to forgive Snape > being a former DE that we haven't stopped to think what being a DE > really means. According to Bellatrix-are-for-kids Lestrange in >OoP, to cast an Unforgivable Curse "you need to realy want to cause >pain--to enjoy it. . ." (715). And we know from GoF that "a spot of > Muggle-torture" was all the rage among the DE set. Add let's not > forget the unsettling image of the Muggle women being forced to >show their knickers to the general public in the beginning of GoF. > For Snape to really have been a DE means that we have to come to > grips with the fact that he probably witnessed rape, torture, and > murder and did nothing to stop it, at the very least. And if he >did participate in the festivities (and let's be honest, you >probably had to kill kittens and burn down orphanages to even be a >DE candidate), chances are that when he was casting Unforgivables > around, *he meant it.* "K": Let me say, as far as I know, there is no proof yet that Snape participated or witnessed any of the above (without attempting to stop it). I find it hard to believe that Dumbledore would hire a man to teach children who did any of those atrocities. *IF* we find out you are right and I'm wrong, I will be the first to say I don't like it at all and I would be more than extremely disappointed with Dumbledore. Melanie: > My guess is, one good flashback of Snape crucio-ing a Muggle >toddler will be enough for even the most die-hard Snape advocates >to start looking over the evidence for the Defense. "K": I consider myself a die-hard Snape fan and I would never overlook torture. Melanie: >And while I think Snape is endlessly entertaining and a complex >character if there ever was one, anybody who's done >torture/murder/what-have-you with a smile on > their lips and a song in their heart is not going on my Christmas > card list. "K": They wouldn't be on my list either. But I will at least wait until I know they have done those things before I remove them. :-) I think many people misunderstand some Snape fans. I would say that the great majority of us do not approve of any of the crimes you mentioned. Maybe I do see things a bit differently than others. I think we use the word *redemption* far too easily. I've seen it used with Tom Riddle, Voldemort, and Peter. As if all they have to do is save Harry's life and all is forgiven and their crimes are no longer punishable. I don't like that thinking at all and I wouldn't like it with Snape. > Oh, and I'm new here, so Hello! :-) > -Melanie "K": Welcome! ^-^ I've been here for years. From n.crins at planet.nl Thu Jul 8 21:00:50 2004 From: n.crins at planet.nl (niekycrins) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 21:00:50 -0000 Subject: house elves Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105188 hi, I'm new here, this is my first post although I have been reading a lot of posts already. I think that the house elves will be playing a big part in the last books, they may decide to form an information network for DD (maybe they already are), they will make a great ally in the battle against VM N. From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Jul 9 03:45:30 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 03:45:30 -0000 Subject: Why Sirius was Chosen as Godparent & Sirius' sacrifice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105189 Jen wrote: > > Now back to Godric's Hollow. What if Sirius being willing to die > for > > Harry has more significance than previously thought? What if James > & > > Lily chose him for this specific reason? In other words, there's > > more to this guardian selection, some additional protection > conveyed > > onto Harry if Sirius does indeed die while attempting to protect > > him, similar to but not as powerful as Lily's sacrifice. Sort of > > a strengthening of Lily's sacrifice. Demetra (quoting from her post # 76111): > Perhaps Dumbledore didn't "kill" Sirius, maybe he volunteered. > Here's why I think this is possible. I can recall Sirius on two > occasions saying that sometimes one might have to die for the greater > good. The first is in the Shreiking Shack incident in POA where he > yells at Peter "THEN YOU SHOULD HAVE DIED...". > Again, in OOTP, he says (to F&G, I think, sorry don't have the books > with me) something along the lines of "there are things that are worth > dying for." > He is, after all,from the "noble" Black family. What is more noble > than laying down your own life so that the ultimate evil can be > eliminated? Jen: Thanks for more canon references, Demetra! And for reminding me of all the good threads last summer, right after OOTP. The two instances you cited above definitely give support for Sirius being willing to give up his life for Harry & the cause. And just to clarify, I don't really believe Sirius went into the DOM battle thinking, "OK, today's the day, I need to be killed in battle." I'm thinking about this more as a 'last resort' plan, like the one at Godric's Hollow, "We'll try the Secret Keeper charm and see how long that holds Voldemort off, but in the event he discovers our location..." And Plan B of course was Lily's sacrifice. Demetra: > I could never really convince myself of it, (her theory above) though, because I could > never come up with a reason *why* Sirius needed to be eliminated. > You have provided a very compelling reason. I absolutely don't think > that it is coincidence that Sirius is the character that espouses the > nobility (there's that word again) of sacrificing one's life. Jen: I'm not certain I believe Sirius *had* to be eliminated. But I do think he took stock of his life while hanging out with Buckbeak, and realized his life wasn't going to get better anytime soon. Perhaps he was even thinking about this when he got word of Harry & Co. in the DOM and decided to throw caution to the wind. He probably figured it couldn't hurt anything--if he died, his death would work to Harry's benefit, and would help Harry more than Sirius was capable of while living. JKR said this when asked why she killed Sirius: "I'm really, really sorry. I didn't want to do it, but there was a reason. If you think you can forgive me, keep reading, you'll find out." (World Book Day chat, March 2004). Can't wait to hear more! Jen From claphamsubwarden at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 01:59:25 2004 From: claphamsubwarden at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 01:59:25 -0000 Subject: Aunt Petunia In-Reply-To: <009501c4654e$3799d760$9d87b604@jf6230b> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105190 rockit_esq wrote: > I think someone posted here the other day that JK had said > at one time that there was a character who would embrace > their wizard ways after being away for a long time. I think > this person is Aunt Petunia. > Roxanne I also think that no other Muggle-born witch/wizard has a sibling other that Lily Evans. So this asks a few questions. Are Muggle-born witches/wizard's siblings magical because the older sibling or just unlucky? Secondly has JKR in her infinite wisdom avoided answering this question by only having Lily as the only Muggle-born with a sister or will Dean/Hermione have a brother/sister that is magical? My answer to the first question is that we can only guess. The answer is unlucky if Petunia is a Muggle or yes if she turns out to be a witch. (Anyone else notice the Petunia fits into the stereotypical witch image.) The second question has a bit more of a definite answer, we know that Hermione has no brothers/sisters unless she has failed to mention them.(Unlikely esp. as her parents are both dentists, therefore v.busy). Dean is not known well enough by Harry to know the answer, though considering they are now in 5th year and junior Thomas would have probably started Hogwarts by now. Any other ideas/suggestions? Chris http://groups.yahoo.com/group/merlin_legacy From submarimon15 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 02:47:21 2004 From: submarimon15 at yahoo.com (Mike) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 02:47:21 -0000 Subject: Slytherin as HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105191 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jakedjensen" wrote: > Who is the half blood prince? I think the books suggest Slytherin. > After all, Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince was originally a > possible title for CoS. CoS focuses a lot on Slytherin and his > background. Half Blood Prince would make sense as a title if (1) > Rowling discussed Slytherin's background in book two and (2) > Slytherin was a half-blood. Mike: I'm convinced that the secret in CoS has to do with the past history of Gryffindor and Slytherin, but at first I figured it would be more of a "Harry is related to Gryffindor as Tom Riddle is related to Syltherin" sort of thing. However after reading your post it seems quite plausible that Slytherin may have been half-blooded and takes his pureblood fanaticism from hatred of Muggles and abuse he has taken from them. I can just imagine the shock it would be to all the Slytherins right now if they found out that their houses' founder wasn't the pureblood loyalist they think he is, rather another 'mere' half blood. This is a reason in my mind why some Slytherins may join together with the rest of the houses (Sorting Hat's song about House unity to defeat LV). For more info on that you can check the "Slytherins join Hogwarts" topics around here that are still being debated in :) Good post and idea, will be added to my list of possible people of who the HBP could be. Mike From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 03:51:00 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 03:51:00 -0000 Subject: Perspective on threads like the homosexuality one In-Reply-To: <009901c4655d$46fd8440$b459aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105192 > An incredible infrastructure of guidelines and administrators has evolved on > this list, because the people who formed it loved to discuss JKR's > creations. They did not love flame wars, insults, or divisiveness. The > debates you find here are detailed, intricate, engrossing, etc. -- but not > rude. If personal attacks or hurt feelings happen, they are attended to. > > That said--no moderator or elf anywhere can protect someone from being > oversensitive. If you know that you are, please take your own steps to > protect yourself. There are 5700+ members of this list now; and there are > reasonable rules to protect an atmosphere that reasonable people can debate > in. If you know from the outset that your sensitivity will not allow you to > move in this atmosphere unhurt, well, then, you knew that from the outset. > > ~Amandageist, the old, who recommends the old (very old) threads on gay > characters in HP to those brave enough to use the Yahoo search function Antosha: I am a moderator on an online forum that discusses questions that often lead to very heartfelt, passionate discussions. The hardest thing in the world is to keep that level of discourse going while keeping it civil. I applaud the participants in this list for managing so well, and the elves for handling the problems so well. From mayeaux45 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 03:38:45 2004 From: mayeaux45 at yahoo.com (mayeaux45) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 03:38:45 -0000 Subject: Harry & Pettigrew...A Wizard's Debt? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105193 Let me just say 'forgive me if someone has already posted this before now'...Moving on then! With all this talk of who could the HBP be, it got me to thinking about other 'soon to be important characters' in the end of the series. Have some of you forgotten about little Peter Pettigrew? In ch.22 of PoA Dumbledore states that Harry did a very "noble" (much like the noble Black family mentioned in OotP) thing saving Pettigrew's life. Dumbledore then went on to say: "Pettigrew owes his life to you. You have sent Voldemort a deputy who is in your debt....When one wizard saves another wizard's life, it "creates a certain bond" between them.... "This is magic at its "deepest", its "most impenetrable"..." "Trust me...the time may come when you will be very glad you saved Pettigrew's life." My question is...how important will Pettigrew be in books 6 & 7? How 'deep' and 'impenetrable' can this magic bond be? Will Peter Pettigrew come to his senses in time? Or will he be forced to act on the behalf of Harry because of their 'bond'? Something tells me we haven't heard the last of little Peter Pettigrew. He may have been a whiney, scared, frumpy, idol-worshiping follower...but he wasn't put in GRYFFINDOR for nothing!!!! "mayeaux" From texas.aggie4 at verizon.net Fri Jul 9 03:39:46 2004 From: texas.aggie4 at verizon.net (genma99) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 03:39:46 -0000 Subject: HBP & the Weasleys Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105194 Howdy all. This is my first post here, so house-elves please feel free to edit away... This is a slight compilation of many thoughts I've read and garnered from the forums at thehpn.com as well as my own spin to a possible (though maybe unprobable) HBP. That is, one of the Weasleys. First of all, yes the Weasleys are pure-bloods. But I'm taking a different look at the context of Half Blood Prince. Perhaps the Prince isn't a halfblood himself, but is a Prince that reigns over the halfbloods. Second, we know that JKR has said that there will be a new Minister of Magic in the sixth book. Third, JKR has mentioned that muggles will begin to notice more of the wizard world. Let's assume that Arthur Weasley gains the position of the new MoM based off of Ron's foreshadowing (winning the Quidditch Cup about as likely as dad becoming MoM...). Also, if muggles notice wizards more, who better to become Minister than somebody from the Muggles Department. We could then think of Arthur as leading the halfbloods since 99% of the purebloods wouldn't follow him anyway. But I would like to draw a strange correlation here. In history, King Arthur battled and killed Emperor Lucius. The correlation is pretty clear now... A battle between "King Arthur Weasley" & the Order & his halfbloods vs. "Emperor Lucius Malfory" & the Deatheaters & the purebloods. Now that we have ourselves a "King Arthur of the halfbloods," we would need our prince. I can't speculate as to this... perhaps Ron or Percy? I don't know. I'd appreciate comments and replies, thanks! Jordan texas.aggie4 at verizon.net From musicofsilence at hotmail.com Fri Jul 9 03:53:54 2004 From: musicofsilence at hotmail.com (lifeavantgarde) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 03:53:54 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes In-Reply-To: <9.2db11d19.2e1f61a2@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105195 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, MadameSSnape at a... wrote: > In a message dated 7/8/2004 10:30:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > MadameSSnape at a... writes: > J. K. Rowling and the Harry > Potter Series. Originally aired on October 12, 1999 > > ============= > > Sherrie again: > > :::sigh::: Should've checked first - the link seems to be dead. I ran a > search at npr.org, came up with a couple of interviews JKR did with Margot Adler > (how funny - a Witch interviewing JKR!), a stint on the National Press Club, & > a few other references - but not The Connection. > > Foo. > > Sherrie > "Unless history lives in our present, it has no future." > PRESERVE OUR CIVIL WAR BATTLEFIELDS! > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] I checked the FAQ and I believe this is allowable...[abject apologies if it's not :o\] I found a link to MP3 versions of the interview (as the original is currently being shuffled around by The Connection's site...) http://www.crusaders.no/~afhp/interviews/connection/ Enjoy! From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 03:58:19 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 03:58:19 -0000 Subject: Revisiting The Boy when He Lived In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105196 Amey wrote: If we can trust LV's account of that night, James was there and defended his family heroically. It is entirely possible that Lupin was reacting to the news that Harry was able to access a memory from his 15th month of his father's voice, or he was acknowledging the emotional impact that this memory had on Harry. On the other hand JKR could indeed be using Lupin's exclaimation as a clue. Carol: My take on "You heard James?" has always been that Lupin was closer to James than to Lupin (the PoA movie to the contrary) and was startled into revealing that closeness by Harry's remark. Then he quickly shut himself up again for fear of revealing too much--that he not only knew but was close friends with the supposed murderer Sirius, that he was a werewolf and they were animagi, that Sirius could get into the Shrieking Shack and might well be hiding there, that Sirius knew secret passages into the school. . . . Lupin has a lot of secrets (and a lot of guilt and anxiety related to them). He has no choice but to admit that he knew Sirius as well as James but brushes this off by saying that he *thought* he knew him. IMO, what's revealed here, for the reader as much as for Harry, is that Lupin is somehow connected with Sirius and James and that Lupin is hiding something. It's foreshadowing, preparing us for the Marauder's Map and the Shrieking Shcack scenes. I don't see any need to extend Lupin's reaction beyond that scene to posit his presence in Godric's Hollow. Peter must have revealed the Godric's Hollow to Sirius (who would have forgotten it because of the Fidelius Curse), but apparently none of them at that point trusted Lupin enough to tell him. I think Lupin is to blame for not revealing what he knew about Sirius Black, particularly after Black not only attacked the Fat Lady's painting with a knife but slashed Ron's curtains with the same knife. He thought his former friend was a murderer; those actions showed that friend to be dangerous and reckless whether he was a murderer or not, but Lupin remained silent? What was he thinking? I don't see any way to excuse his negligence and irresponsibility in those cases, especially when the Marauder's Map fell into his hands, giving him the perfect opportunity to confess everything he knew. (The fact that Black *wasn't* guilty is beside the point. Black clearly *was* violent, unstable, and desperate. Neither does Lupin's desire to keep Dumbledore's trust, which he was in fact betraying through concealment of crucial evidence.) He was wrong, inexcusably wrong in my view, but wrong is not the same as evil. For list members to assume, based simply on his blurted "You heard James?" that he must have been present at Godric's Hollow and must therefore be ESE! is just too big a jump. (I happen to think that Peter was there in rat form, hidden from view, but I don't have any way to back that up and it's not relevant here, anyway.) Carol, still suffering from Mark Evansitis and for the moment unwilling to push explainable evidence farther than it seems to merit From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 04:10:17 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 04:10:17 -0000 Subject: Half Blood Prince vs. Half-Blood Prince or Halfblood Prince Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105197 Another professional wordsmith and I were bitching together about the huge, GIGANTIC style faux-pas in JKR's announced title for book six. Strictly speaking, whether the style is British or American, a two word noun phrase that's used as an adjective (that is, that modifies a noun) is hyphenated. Not to mention the fact that, in all of the previous books, even the noun form of 'half-blood' is always hyphenated. In CoS (I apologize--we had this conversation a week ago, and I don't have the book in front of me), Hagrid says that most wizards are "half-bloods or less" and Tom Riddle refers twice to himself (and once to Harry) as a "half-blood." So, the title should, strictly speaking, be Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince. UNLESS.... UNLESS she doesn't mean a prince who is a half-blood. What the other meaning of Half Blood Prince could be, I am unsure. But could she have a different meaning altogether? Is there such a thing as a Blood Prince? There is the phrase, "a prince of the blood," meaning of the royal family. Can anyone out there come up with something else? PERHAPS.... The prince in question is half-vampire? (Dear me, I really don't wish to restart Vampire! Snape threads, even as JKR has fairly emphatically shut them down....) From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Fri Jul 9 04:17:48 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 04:17:48 -0000 Subject: HBP & the Weasleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105198 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "genma99" wrote: > Let's assume that Arthur Weasley gains the position of the new MoM > based off of Ron's foreshadowing (winning the Quidditch Cup about as likely as dad becoming MoM...). Valky: Oh yeah :O ! Ron the seer right! You sure you're new here? LOL You've dipped into one of my favourite alltime threads, mind you I never contributed to it (forehead slap) but yet I really thought it was a brilliant deduction. Yeah, Arthur as the MOM, what an interesting precursor to the Arthur vs Lucius final conflict. And if Ron said it ............... ;P Genma also wrote: > We could then think of Arthur as leading the halfbloods > since 99% of the purebloods wouldn't follow him anyway. > > But I would like to draw a strange correlation here. In history, > King Arthur battled and killed Emperor Lucius. The correlation is > pretty clear now... > Valky: Agreed, though I still have somewhat of a feeling that the Half Blood intimation runs deeper than just a champion of the cause. Though, indeed Arthur is a champion of the cause. Genma again: > Now that we have ourselves a "King Arthur of the halfbloods," we > would need our prince. I can't speculate as to this... perhaps Ron or Percy? I don't know. > Valky again: Now, why did YOU say Ron first? We could go on for a year considering which boy and why. Which could be really fun and illuminating, for us to do. So, all we need is a few more of us interested in examining the Weasleys as possible WW royalty. Any takers? (Is there anyone who remembers the thread on this list some time ago that investigated this very theme long before the HBP title was released. As I recall it had some base footing in the ponderings of who was Gryffindors Heir.) From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 04:23:11 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 04:23:11 -0000 Subject: Half Blood Prince vs. Half-Blood Prince or Halfblood Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105199 "antoshachekhonte" wrote: > Strictly speaking, whether the style is > British or American, a two word noun phrase that's used as an adjective (that is, that > modifies a noun) is hyphenated. Not to mention the fact that, in all of the previous books, > even the noun form of 'half-blood' is always hyphenated. Antosha again: For an example of how this is supposed to work, the Malfoys, the Blacks and the Weasleys are all referred to as "purebloods," but Draco and others are referred to on numerous occasions as "pure-blood wizards." From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 04:30:50 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 04:30:50 -0000 Subject: Sirius' choices (Was About Animagi, Sirius and a wild theory. . .) In-Reply-To: <20040703150935.30127.qmail@webmail9.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105200 Amey wrote: Sirius might have been a bully, but he is definitely not the bad guy or spy. He comes across as a person who lost his best friend very early in life, and then he is trying to re-live the life. But he can't now live normal life as he is a person on the run. Also, he can't do anything to help Order more actively (and can't help to revenge the murder of his best friend, am I the only person who is thinking on this track?) Also, he gets enough taunts for being at home from Severus, and his other best friend (Lupin, i can't think of much friction between them now that only 2 marauders are remaining in a sense) is working actively. This all builds up a frustration, about which he can't talk (being a proud man, not arrogant). So Sirius is surely one character who needs some sympathy, because his life was not "Chosen by him" but "chosen for him". Carol: Without going into your characterization of Sirius, which seems to ignore his reckless streak, and without denying his frustration at Grimmauld Place, I do want to point out that Sirius did make certain choices that contributed to his fate. He chose to make Peter secret keeper in his place; he chose to follow Peter after Godric's Hollow rather than going to Dumbledore (who would have known that he wasn't lying and tried to help him); and he chose to go after Peter a second time, with the specific intent to commit murder, when he escaped from Azkaban. He also chose (admittedly with better intentions than usual) to return to England and place himself in jeopardy rather than staying safely in hiding in some tropical region, to reveal himself by accompanying Harry in dog form to Platform 9 3/4, and to go to the MoM despite being advised not to. Of course I understand his reasons for making all these choices (well, most of them), but the point is that he chose to do these things and in so doing at least partially shaped his own fate. Carol From marcuscason at charter.net Fri Jul 9 04:34:50 2004 From: marcuscason at charter.net (kyntor70) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 04:34:50 -0000 Subject: Why Sirius was Chosen as Godparent & Sirius' sacrifice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105201 Jen wrote: "I'm not certain I believe Sirius *had* to be eliminated. But I do think he took stock of his life while hanging out with Buckbeak, and realized his life wasn't going to get better anytime soon. Perhaps he was even thinking about this when he got word of Harry & Co. in the DOM and decided to throw caution to the wind. He probably figured it couldn't hurt anything--if he died, his death would work to Harry's benefit, and would help Harry more than Sirius was capable of while living." Kyntor replies: Personally, I think the situation is much simpler than that. I believe that Sirius went to the DoM simply because Harry was in danger. It is the case of a godfather doing what he swore to do (protect his godchild). We really don't know if Sirius even knew about the prophecy much less the fact that Harry could use his love for Sirius to protect himself from Voldemort. Kyntor From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Fri Jul 9 04:48:00 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 04:48:00 -0000 Subject: Tom the Heir of Slytherin & Salazar vs. Godric? (was CoS question) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105202 >>> Pippin wrote: > > The Chamber is most likely one of those magical objects with a > mind of its own. I'm not sure anyone could find it unless it > wanted to be found. The snake marking on the tap could be like > the Dark Mark or the writing on the Marauders Map--only visible > under certain circumstances. Riddle *wanted* Harry to enter the > Chamber--if he hadn't, perhaps Harry would have searched in > vain, parselmouth or not. > >>> KB responded: > One of the most fortunate (i.e., fateful) circumstances for HRH was that Diary!Tom had already opened the Chamber (through Ginny) and released the Basilisk. Without that, I don't think they would have found the entrance to the Chamber. So IMO it's not so much that the Chamber *wanted* to be found as that it already *had* been found. <<< > How? Diary!Tom says only that it took him "five whole years" (CoS, p. 230) to find it; he does not say how. <<< Brenda now: Pippin, it is quite neat to compare the Chamber's snake marking to the Dark Mark or the Marauder's Map and how they remain invisible till the needs arise. I have read a few posts saying the Chamber of Secrets somewhat resembles the Room of Requirement. But I always understood this as an internal change than external (i.e. the snake marking was still there, but the Chamber would be closed). It makes more sense that the entrance marking will disappear altogether; Salazar probably didn't want Godric (or someone like Dumbledore) to discover the snake carving and put it together. KB, you have brought up a very interesting point that I have not seen being discussed so far. How *did* he find it? And if it was the simple matter of speaking in Parseltongue once locating the entrance, why did it take him "five whole years"? And how did he find out he was the Heir of Slytherin anyways? My first take is that he probably heard it squirming its way around in Hogwarts plumbing, whispering "let me rip you rip kill " Or something along the line of "Tom Riddle you are the Heir of Slytherin and you must fulfill the great legacy of Slytherin that awaits you " (the Basilisk probably said something much different to Tom Riddle than to Harry). But this doesn't explain WHY it took him five *long* years. I mean, he is thought to be "the most brilliant student Hogwarts has ever had" (paraphrasing D-Dore's words in CoS) and something doesn't seem right to me. So I'm thinking, Tom Riddle probably had it much harder to learn the existence of the Chamber and how to operate it. One scenario I can think of is that Salazar Slytherin left a diary of his own, preserving himself as the Hogwarts founder. To me, leaving one's memory in a diary seems so awfully clever that maybe he had learned it from someone else. However, if this was true -- then how did he find that diary, and where was it kept all along? Could it be that it was kept in another secret chamber we know of -- in the Malfoy mansion! What if there was another great war (much like Voldemort vs. Dumbledore) about a thousand years ago, between Slytherin and Gryffindor. The Malfoys could have been Salazar's trustworthy friends/allies/servants (you name it) or even the Secret Keeper. Salazar strikes a deal with Malfoy. "Yo 'sup, Malfo. I have this diary instructing my Heir-to-be how to purse those filthy Mudblood and whatnot, but I need a place to hide it. Would you be a darling and fetch me your house. I will build a secret chamber inside since I trust no one but myself but my house will be too risky now. For a consolation prize I will fill it up with my precious gold, but you will give them back to me when this war is over." (Apologies for the sarcasm, I just read the "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets: the Abridged Script" in the Files section and still laughing hysterically.) I mean where on Earth did Malfoys get their hands on all that gold. Is it only me, or does it seem like he owns about half of all the Wizarding gold there is?!?! Brenda From darkthirty at shaw.ca Fri Jul 9 05:16:29 2004 From: darkthirty at shaw.ca (dan) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 05:16:29 -0000 Subject: There's something about Harry Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105203 I'd like to draw attention yet again to an article on The Boston Common website by Michael Bronski, "There's Something About Harry." If you haven't read this article, I strongly encourage you to read it. In it, Bronski states that "the Harry Potter books celebrate a revolt against accepted, conventional life, against the world of the Muggles, who slavishly follow societal rules without ever thinking about whether they are right or wrong, if they make sense or not.." She uses the term queer, in its larger sense, to describe the series - or more particularly, those in the series with whom the reader will most readily identify, meaning Harry and his friends at Hogwarts - not Harry's dim-witted relatives. By setting up muggle life, as Harry experiences it, as the Dursleys, it is clear what Rowling considers "dull, unexciting, unimaginative, and deadening." Bronski also points out that, though the gist of Order of the Phoenix, and really, the series, since the introduction of Riddle and the Death Eaters, the central theme, is "a clear attack on racial purity," that theme is rarely discussed - even though it is really at the very heart of the story. Does it slip below the radar of adults? Bronski wonders. Are parents even aware of how subversive the books are? Or that the subversion exists on this fundamental level? Here I quote Ms. Bronski: 'If Harry Potter presents children "and the rest of us" with a tantalizing vision of Misrule and the world turned upside down, let's try to understand why we don't like parts of the world in which we live now. If we don't want to be Muggles "at least not all the time" maybe being queer, in the broadest sense, might be a lot more fun. This means, on a very basic level, reconceiving the very structures of what we call society, civilization, and freedom.' The significance of this particular aspect of interpretating Rowling's books cannot be downplayed. In the books themselves, even in Philosopher's Stone, Rowling makes it pretty clear that she would consider sitting in front of the books and daydreaming away before our "deepest desires" something that will bring no truth, no enlightenment. That is, Dumbledore's Erised speech is a fairly precise meta-theme that attacks the simplistic, the sentimental, the wistful. She is asking us, in a way, to go along with Harry - he has to eschew such daydreams, and we must as well, if we are to make the journey with him. It is in this sense I take her oft-recited disavowel of any belief in magic. Magic is what we do in our heads to see a way clear, to envision a way toward our goals, to deal with this or that contingency. It is not something we do with wands or spells. Rowling, I have stated a number of times, seems to be amoral. The questions posed in the books deal entirely with ethics, with the satirical and with something far below, and above, any discussion about this or that question phrased in moralistic language. During the Second Task, when Harry saves not only his own but also Fleur's "thing that would be missed," he acts without falling prey to rationalization. He acts. (In the past I have identified this unconscious acting as a kind of secular Calvinism.) What is clear, though, is that Rowling did not provide any moralistic this or thatting on the subject. None. She instead refers to Harry's embarassment over discovering the lack of real danger in the situation. (Of course, I think there was real danger in the situation - the danger of falling prey to rationalization. Harry, of course, passed the test, and we love him for it.) Later on, this will become what is jokingly referred to as his penchant for "saving people." How are we to take this joke? Is it the same thing that led to the "Rescue Mission" at the Ministry of Magic? Or was that situation contaminated by Harry's rather idealistically framed personal connection with Sirius? A connection that again is thematically rounded, in the book, with a two-way mirror phone? That is, was Erised at work? Was Harry's idealistically framed relationship with Sirius the problem, and not his "penchant for saving people?" And was this idealistically framed relationship a result of Sirius manipulations as well, at Grimauld, for instance, when he seemed to want to appear the best advocate for Harry, and where appearing so was rather important to Sirius? I think so. In fact, that entire relationship was based on the desire to have a deep connection - not on any real connection. Harry is oversensitive when Sirius modifies his favourable comparison of Harry with James. Sirius, in spite of his assurances that Harry's best interests are at heart, is too often motivated almost purely by revenge. So, in a sense, it is that unconscious acting, that humanist ethic that is at the very centre, physically (middle of middle book) and thematically in Rowling's Harry Potter series. And, if my reading of Rowling is correct, all the really important questions will shrug off petty moralism like so much dust. The link to the Boston Common article by Michael Bronski is here: http://www.bostonphoenix.com/boston/news_features/other_stories/docume nts/02977459.htm Dan From ktd7 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 05:28:22 2004 From: ktd7 at yahoo.com (Karen) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 05:28:22 -0000 Subject: half-blood prince possibilities... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105204 Maybe these have been discussed, but I couldn't find them in the messages. Considering what JKR has said about who the HBP *isn't*, and considering that CoS was nearly named HBP, I've been thinking about who would fit the bill.... In my opinion, the two best possibilities are either Dumbledore or Dobby. Wait, wait, don't throw pumpkins at me, yet!!! Here's my thinking: a. Whoever the HBP is must have had some major roll in CoS. b. Whoever the HBP is will be someone who's parentage we either don't know or who is known to be half-blood. c. The HBP obviously must be a male. Looking at the various characters in CoS: Dudley: not a major character, not likely a prince. Draco: not a major character, known to be pure blood. Neville: not a major character in CoS, known to be pure blood. Ron: known to be pure blood. Fred, George, Percy: Ditto. Justin Finch-Fletchly: not a major character. Filch: not a major character. Ghosts (Peeves, Nick, etc.): not major characters. Firenze: not in CoS. Hagrid: not a major character in CoS. Snape: not a major factor in CoS. Lockhart: major character, unknown parentage, but definitely a long shot. Okay, I'm sure I've missed a few, but the ones that I think are most likely are... Dumbledore or Dobby! We know nothing about Dumbledore's parentage. We know that he is fond of muggles and muggleborn wizards. Could he be a half-blood? Why not? We know nothing of Dobby's parentage. We do know that he has done things that other house elves would never think of doing. He has been much more independent and has a different attitude than the others. Could he be just half house elf, half something else? Could this be why the other house elves don't want anything to do with him (besides his wanting to be paid!). Maybe he is a prince "in exile". Sigh. It is late. I'm sure there are all sorts of holes in this theory, so fire away! Karen "Nitwit, Blubber, Oddment, Tweak!" From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 05:31:08 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 05:31:08 -0000 Subject: Broderick Bode's visitor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105205 Carol wrote: [Bode's] visitor may be perfectly innocent since he didn't bring the plant. It was sent anonymously. Maybe his gift was the calendar with the fancy hippogriffs. (?) > > Carol, who's pretty sure we haven't heard the end of this incident jqwillia responded: > I think you are right - we will come back to this incident. The visitor to Bode is descibed as "stooped" (I don't have the book with me) and so is the death eater Nott in the GoF. JK has described Nott as very elderly on her website. I know this is a stretch, but I think the visitor did deliver the Devil's snare to Bode, and his identity was Nott. > Sorry for any mistakes, this is my first EVER post, from a long time > lurker... Carol again: Hi. I'm honored that you chose to come out of lurking to answer my post, so I hope you don't mind if I quote some canon to back up my point. First, all we hear about the visitor is a brief description: "A very old, stooped wizard with a hearing trumpet had shuffled to the front of the queue now," followed by a brief dialogue: "'I'm here to see Broderick Bode,' he wheezed. 'Ward forty-nine, but I'm afraid you're wasting your time,' said the witch dismissively. 'He's completely addled, you know, still thinks he's a teapot. . . . Next!'" (OoP Am. ed. 480). Nothing about his bearing any gifts. Admittedly DE Nott is described on JKR's website as "elderly" and in the graveyard scene as "stooped," but he's not too elderly to attend DE meetings when summoned or to fight in the DoM battle, and he doesn't use a hearing trumpet. (I agree that the visitor could be a DE in disguise, but I don't think it's Nott, and he isn't bearing gifts.) That scene occurs during Harry's first visit to St. Mungo's, which occurs while Harry normally would still have been at school. (He and his friends are portkeyed to 12 Grimmauld Place early because of Mr. Weasley's injuries.) The gifts, OTOH, are delivered during Harry's second visit to St. Mungo's on Christmas Day. I can't tell exactly how much time has passed, but it's at least two or three days after the first visit and in a different chapter. While Harry and his friends are "visiting" Gilderoy Lockhart, the Healer brings in the gifts for Bode: "'And look, Broderick, you've been sent a potted plant and a lovely calendar with a different fancy hippogriff for each month, they'll brighten things up, won't they?' said the Healer, bustling along to the mumbling man, setting a rather ugly plant with long, swaying tentacles on the bedside cabinet and fixing the calendar to the wall with her wand." (OoP Am. ed. 512.) Although the healer tells Agnes, the dog-faced woman, that her son has sent an owl and is coming to visit, she says nothing to Bode about who the gifts are from. And they're not brought into the ward by the stooped old man with the hearing trumpet, though he apparently did visit the ward earlier without, so far as we can tell, inflicting any additional damage on Bode. They're brought in by the Healer herself in a separate incident, 32 pages after the first one (at least in the American edition). The old man could be a disguised DE (the hearing trumpet seems suspiciously "disguisy"), but the gifts are sent anonymously several days after his visit. Quite possibly he's a spy who reports to Voldemort on Bode's condition and circumstances, but he doesn't personally give Bode the plant. There's no real indication that he's Nott, either. He could as easily be the old man who shows up with Macnair for Buckbeak's execution in PoA--or for that matter, Lucius Malfoy in disguise. I suppose the Healer could be a suspect, too, but we don't see many female DEs and she doesn't seem the type. Too trusting for her own good and that of her patients, more likely. Without question, the sender is a DE (it surely wouldn't be LV himself), but we don't have any solid evidence to implicate the old man. Is he a clue or a red herring? With luck, we'll find out in Book 6. Carol From ktd7 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 05:42:37 2004 From: ktd7 at yahoo.com (Karen) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 05:42:37 -0000 Subject: "His eyes are green..."Re: Toad Surveillance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105206 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, imamommy at s... wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, imamommy at s... wrote: > > > imamommy: > > > > > > I was thinking about Trevor the toad, and I sort of had a Hermione > > > moment where I had to get up and check the books, and I would like > > to > > > pose a theory that Trevor is at least one way in which DD is > > keeping > > > his eye on Harry > > > > I would like to think Trevor has more significance than > > > just revealing Neville's character. > > > > > > Plausible theory, or do I need a course of Shock Spells at St. > > Mungo's? > > > > > > imamommy > > > > I think that's a good theory, though I wonder if it is just Harry > > that Trev is watching. After all, Neville, too could be a part of > > the prophecy, so maybe, just maybe, Neville is far better protected > > than we can imagine as well. Like having an heir and a spare. > > > > Meri > > imamommy, adding to her theory: > > One "small thing" I thought about form CoS today was the singing > Valentine. The "His eyes are green as a fresh-pickled toad" bit. We > still don't know who sent that message. We are left to believe it is > Ginny, but we are never told so. Harry having Lily's green eyes is > definitely significant, and this little toad reference might be a > *very* subtle tip-off. I know there have been theories about who sent > the Valentine and what the significance of the wording is; does anyone > have anything to help support my ramblings? > > imamommy Just to throw more stuff in the pile, my daughter pointed out this weekend that DOBBY also has green eyes... may mean nothing at all, but hey, lots of little stuff has turned out to be significant! Karen "Nitwit, Blubber, Oddment, Tweak!" From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 05:57:34 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 05:57:34 -0000 Subject: Owl feathers and LV's wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105207 > Gina Miller wrote: has anyone ever asked how LV got his wand back? The house was rubble so did someone go get it? >> > Catlady responded: > Personally, I always assumed that LV took Pettigrew with him when he > went to kill the Potters (altho' Legilimency weakens such motives as > making sure that he is not being sent to a trap by making Peter walk > in front of him, or making sure that he is not being sent on a wild > goose chase by having Peter available to be immediately punished), so when LV was disintegratedd, Peter grabbed up his wand before > scampering away in rat form. He may have hidden it somewhere from > whence he retrieved it on the way to rejoin LV, or may have kept it > with him in rat form all those years. Carol adds: I agree with Catlady except for one detail. He has no wand at all when Lupin and Sirius restore him to human form, but the has Voldemort's wand when he AKs Cedric and restore Voldemort's body in the graveyard. (Irony and foreshadowing, anybody?) so I think your first idea that he hid it is more likely. But I think he left the scene in human form, not rat form, because he had his own wand (subsequently lost) when he blew off his finger and killed the Muggles. Leaving his wand behind, even if he *could* take it with him, strengthens the illusion that he was murdered. (All speculation, of course. But how else can we explain his having Voldemort's wand but not his own?) Gina wrote: Tom Riddle is in fact dead Carol: How so? Diart!Tom is dead, but the real Tom Riddle was transformed into Voldemort. Yes, Voldemort left his body at Godric's Hollow, but he still considers himself to be the son of Tom Riddle Sr. in the graveyard scene. (See my remarks about "bone of the father" and "family history" in an earlier post.) Gina wrote: > << Back to the budgie- there are a lot of feathers on JKR's website- > any ideas as to what they signify? >> > Catlady responded: > I thought they were a reference to quill pens used by wizards. Carol: I think the two feathers that appear on the main page when you click the cup for "Other Stuff" are left by the owls who deliver the post. You hear them fluttering and hoo-hooing in the background as they drop the envelopes. Carol From madmarymack at hotmail.com Fri Jul 9 04:55:36 2004 From: madmarymack at hotmail.com (madmarymack) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 04:55:36 -0000 Subject: house elves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105208 "niekycrins" wrote: > hi, I'm new here, this is my first post although I have been reading > a lot of posts already. I think that the house elves will be playing > a big part in the last books, they may decide to form an information > network for DD (maybe they already are), they will make a great ally > in the battle against VM Mary: I also think that house elves will play a significant role in the upcoming books. On rereading CoS, I was perplexed at what appears to be Dobby's ability to disapparate within Hogwarts when he visits Harry at the hospital. Here's what the text says: "'Dobby must go!' breathed the elf, terrified. There was a loud crack, and Harry's fist was suddenly clenched on thin air." I know Hermione has told us endlessly that you can't apparate on Hogwarts grounds, so maybe what he's doing isn't actually apparating. I suppose he could just be making himself invisible. But in OotP, when Harry hears Mundungus apparate, he describes it as "exactly the sound Dobby the house-elf made when he vanished into thin air." What I find most interesting about this possibility is that if house elves can somehow get around the powerful protective measures placed around Hogwarts, perhaps they will be able to infiltrate other highly protected areas, i.e. the Death Eaters' hideouts. I love your idea of them forming an information network. I'm a first-time poster, too, which I'm sure will make for the beginnings of a wonderful thread! Mary From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 9 06:32:23 2004 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 06:32:23 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105209 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lifeavantgarde" wrote: > Stefanie: > Again, while I want to take Dumbledore's trust as gold, there have > been situations where he hasn't placed his trust in the right person > at all. While this very well may not be the case in Snape's case, it > cannot be dismissed as invalid in his situation. Even in interviews, > JKR has only confirmed that "Dumbledore believes his story." Not > that it's true or not. I agree. Thanks for the compilation of interviews. I think it gives a clue to the possible outcome and my own hunch is that Snape's skill as an occlumens (sp?) - if indeed so good as to defy Voldemort's legilimens skill (how otherwise could he have acted as spy), would also be good enough to hoodwink Dumbledore. It is rather obvious that Voldemort is at least as talented and powerfull a wizard as Dumbledore (witness their duel). So if Snape can cheat one, he can certainly cheat the other. > JK's been anything but lucid in regards to Snape...that she doesn't > comment concretely on his loyalties, *does* bear scrutinization. My personal hunch (for what it is worth) that Snape will be forced to make a choice in the coming books. After the almost inevitable death of Dumbledore - which side will he be on. Snape's friends (such as there are), loyalties, etc. are all in Voldemort's camp. The central figure (post Dumbledore) in the fight against Voldemort is Harry, whom he utterly detests. Witness how the relationship between Harry and Snape is getting worse through each book. Add the history (his hatered of Harry's father, distaste of his mother's muggle origin combined with what I suspect was a crush on her, etc.) and I think it is highly likely that Snape will end up going back to the dark side. Salit From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Fri Jul 9 06:39:14 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 06:39:14 -0000 Subject: half-blood prince possibilities... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105210 "Karen" wrote: > a. Whoever the HBP is must have had some major roll in CoS. ---------- Wrong. Book 2 was NOT called HBP because the story wasn't about the HBP. Therefore the HBP could very much be a character that didn't make the story at all. It's obvious the story didn't revolve around the HBP (hence the title change) and since we can assume the HBP was likely a small character in CoS it may have also been edited out. If you notice, Books 1 and two received the most editorial "trimming" because they were published before JKR was a standard everyday acronym. *sighs and decides to link to my little example of 'thinking outside the box' on the identity of the HBP* http://www.livejournal.com/community/hptheories/156113.html Arya From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 06:40:46 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 06:40:46 -0000 Subject: Boggart/ Patronus Musings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105211 lziner wrote: In POA, we never see Lupins Patronus just his boggart -the moon. I've read some posts about James' Patronus - I'm just wondering about the rest of the characters. Anyone venture a guess on the forms of the boggart and or patronus for: James Sirius Dumbledore Snape Peter Alla responded: Well, JKR said in the March Chat that Snape's Patronus and Boggart will be important to the plot. I used to think that Snape's Patronus will be Dumbledore. I am now thinking that Snape's Patronus could be Lily (if Snape indeed had feelings for her) and Snape's Boggart could be James. > Carol: Alla, I really like your idea of Snape's patronus being Dumbledore (it's supposed to be a protective figure, and "patronus" is related to the Latin word for "father," which is why Harry's patronus is so appropriate and why I don't think James' was a nose-biting teacup). So why not Dumbledore for Snape, as the closest thing to a father he ever had? His own father was evidently a brute and quite possibly the boggart of his childhood, though certainly not as an adult. (Our fears change, so it stands to reason that our boggarts would change. Imagine Hermione's still being fear of failing her classes when she's 35. Or Neville's still being Professor Snape. I very much doubt it.) I don't think Snape's boggart is James, either, at least that's not the impression I get from the Pensieve scene. Severus was enraged and humiliated, but I didn't see any sign of fear. He fought back while he had his wand (and swore furiously when he didn't). I don't think he feared either James or Sirius. He doesn't even fear death, apparently, or even Voldemort, since he risked his life to spy for Dumbledore in his early twenties and is taking great risks in GoF and OoP as well. I've got it! Humiliation. That's why Snape's worst memory is the Pensieve scene and not the Prank or his deeds as a DE. (Picturing Snape's boggart as an upside-down boy with his underwear showing and not sure whether to laugh or cry.) What do you think? As for the others, I'm not even sure that Lupin can cast a corporeal patronus, only light from his wand. He even protested to Harry that he wasn't sure he could teach him to cast one. But if he can, maybe it would be Hogwarts itself. Or a matronus, Madam Pomfrey. (Okay, that's silly, but I'm stumped.) Dumbledore's patronus: Fawkes? Dumbledore's boggart: None? Maybe he outgrew all his fears except the destruction of the WW, and how do you make that into a boggart? I just had a sad thought. Maybe his boggart resembles Mrs. Weasley's. Dead Harry. Ow. Sorry to end on that note. I was having fun till I had that thought. Thanks again, Alla, for the suggestion of Dumbledore as Snape's patronus. I'll hold onto that idea until and unless it's proven wrong. :-) Carol From greatraven at hotmail.com Fri Jul 9 06:45:58 2004 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 06:45:58 -0000 Subject: Harry & Pettigrew...A Wizard's Debt? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105212 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mayeaux45" wrote: > Let me just say 'forgive me if someone has already posted this > before now'...Moving on then! > > With all this talk of who could the HBP be, it got me to thinking > about other 'soon to be important characters' in the end of the > series. Have some of you forgotten about little Peter Pettigrew? > In ch.22 of PoA Dumbledore states that Harry did a very "noble" > (much like the noble Black family mentioned in OotP) thing saving > Pettigrew's life. Dumbledore then went on to say: "Pettigrew owes > his life to you. You have sent Voldemort a deputy who is in your > debt....When one wizard saves another wizard's life, it "creates a > certain bond" between them.... "This is magic at its "deepest", > its "most impenetrable"..." "Trust me...the time may come when you > will be very glad you saved Pettigrew's life." > > My question is...how important will Pettigrew be in books 6 & 7? > How 'deep' and 'impenetrable' can this magic bond be? Will Peter > Pettigrew come to his senses in time? Or will he be forced to act on > the behalf of Harry because of their 'bond'? Something tells me we > haven't heard the last of little Peter Pettigrew. He may have been > a whiney, scared, frumpy, idol-worshiping follower...but he wasn't > put in GRYFFINDOR for nothing!!!! > > "mayeaux" Sue: I agree that Wormtail will do something before the end - perhaps not something noble, though. Perhaps the "worm" will turn on his master like Wormtongue on Saruman? Or perhaps he'll be another Gollum, doing something Harry can't do in the last minute, though not for noble reasons? After all, he didn't seem bothered about feeding Harry to LV in GoF. Well, who knows? As for the Gryffindor membership, there are some pretty silly people in Gryffindor! ;-) From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Fri Jul 9 05:05:57 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 9 Jul 2004 05:05:57 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Percy... also HBP (was: Re: Dumbledore and Sirius; Percy Weasly; Defending Percy; Slytherin as HBP) Message-ID: <20040709050557.1099.qmail@webmail7.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105213 >> Entropy: >> Good catch, Jen. >> We have to question just how Lupin has learned so much about the Dark >> Arts. He certainly didn't learn about it through conventional methods >> (the MOM, like Moody and Umbridge), wasn't a DE (like Fake!Moody), and >> we've seen enough of his knowledge to be sure he's not a fraud (like >> Lockhart). >> So, how did he gain a knowledge of the Dark Arts vast enough to become >> a Hogwarts professor (and a good one, to boot!)? Durmstrang seems a >> good a place as any to learn first-hand about the Dark Arts. Amey: Durmstrang appear to teach "Dark Arts", not the "Defence" stuff as in Hogwarts. But given that Lupin is werewolf, as he said, he finds getting job very hard, as there is "deep rooted" hatred (I don't remember exact word) about werewolves in WW. So, personally I would like to go with the other suggestion, that he learned it in his years as maruader, and probably in his travels to find a job. Amey previously: >> > Also, some quotes from OoT, "Snape's Worst Memory": >> > Snape reacted so fast it was as though he had been expecting an >> attack: dropping his bag, he plunged his hand inside his robes and >> his wand was halfway into the air when James shouted, 'Expelliarmus!' >> >> Ces >> I read that to mean that both James and Sirius had already attacked >> Snape in the past and he was almost always prepared now. Two against >> one certainly shows (to me at least)who are the real cowards and >> bullies here. >> Sirius was a risk to himself at Grimmauld Place - he was sitting >> around with little to do, apparently feeling sorry for himself, which >> is a very dangerous thing to do and can lead to impulsive acts...such >> as running off to the Ministry, instead of staying put like he was >> supposed to. Instead he rushes off to save Harry, who himself >> doesn't think ahead and gets Sirius in trouble. >> I think a pensieve is objective - it seems to show events as they >> happened, without editing. It's a memory of that person's version of >> what happened. Amey: What gave you impression that "both" James and Sirius had picked fight with him? It is nowhere mentioned that they *both* attacked him at the same time even once in the whole scene. Also, we know that he attacked James when he was not watching him, and could have done again if Sirius hadn't stepped in. Here nobody is coward (I agree not even Snape) because it was always a fair fight, one-to-one, the other person stepping in if somebody tried to attack his friend from behind, which is not at all fair. I don't mean to say that it redeems James for what he did, but nobody in that scene (including Snape) except Lily comes out as a good character. Also in GP, Sirius wasn't sitting around doing nothing, he had nothing to do. He couldn't go out and work. He was feeling sorry for himself for that, which was further fueled by Snape. (Remember, he did not take the same suggestion from Fred/George seriuosly because he knew they didn't mean it.) Snape was goading him, he knew the situation fully, still he was teasing Sirius. You can't expect anybody to take this. As for rushing to MoM, that was because he loved Harry and he could not stay put when Harry was in danger. Of course Harry was wrong in going ahead without thinking, but then that's a different issue. And also, remember who told Sirius to stay put? It is Snape, so I am sure he must have made it sound pretty *sweet* for Sirius to hear. And as for penseive, if it shows "a memory of that person's version of what happened.", it's pretty subjective, and the scene might even be different. (Has anyone here heard that mind changes especially painful memories? That is a part of pshycological defence. SOrry to go off topic, I am not suggesting that it *is* the case here, but it might be.) >> Del replies : >> A classic in the WW : remember Sirius ? And you can be fond of a >> little kid one day, and realise the next day that he's turned into a >> brat. Nothing suspicious in that. >> In the eyes of the Ministry, DD is trying to start a panic. It's like >> if someone famous said they had insider information that a nuclear >> power plant was leaking : what matters is to make it clear that that >> person is talking nonsense. >> And *fighting* one's governing body with no convincing proof is even >> *less* patriotic and more unwise. Percy wasn't convinced by the >> shallow proofs he was presented, so he went for the more patriotic >> path. I do hope that when my son is nineteen, it will take more than a >> single testimony from a teenage boy and a bunch of apparently >> unrelated events to turn him against his country ! >> Del again: >> The only one with a right mind ? >> If your whole family got under the rule of a guru, would you feel that >> you *have* to become a member of the sect too ? Amey: Taking your last point first, I hope any of my 19 year old friends in this situation chooses to go ahead with his parents more than he goes ahead with *people who count*. I mean, it's not just testimony of a boy, his parents have seen it and they believe it fully. Here, if we are taking example of guru, he did go ahead with a sect *The Ostrich Sect*, spearheaded by Fudge. As for the important person bit, I am sure it matters more to check if what he is saying is true than refusing it outright, because you don't want to believe him. You want to believe all good things doen't mean only good things will be said to you, Fudge should remember this. He is a classic *Ostrich* we hear in stories. >> Del replies : >> Maybe that's the heart of the problem : most people don't see Percy as >> a living, breathing, feeling human being, but just as a machine with a >> different label according to the book. Amey: I agree he is a human, but the problem is not people seeing Percy, he placing those titles before his person and rationale. >> Del replies : >> He doesn't realise >> he's in a war situation, he thinks it's just a little conflict, with >> DD on the losing side. Amey: So he goes with Fudge because he is winning and not thinking who is right? Speak loads of him. >> Del replies : >> Percy most probably doesn't know about Crouch Jr, nobody does outside >> of those that were at Hogwarts at the time it happened and the people >> in the Order. Amey: The people in Order include his parents and brothers, 2 of which were in Hogwarts when all this happened. Need anything more? >> Del replies : >> and even if he separated himself from >> his family, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't send any of them to the >> Dementors like Crouch Sr (no matter what Ron says). >> And Ron always *overtly* despised ambition, but deep inside his >> deepest dream at age 11 was to become Head Boy and Quidditch Captain ! >> Quite hypocrit don't you think ? At least Percy was always honest >> about his ambitions. Amey: I agree about Crucio, though that is because it is against rules, in this case not bad at all. But as for being like Barty Crouch Sr, I doubt. Also, Ron never despises ambition, all despise Percy (and some Crouch Sr) for putting ambition over everything else. >> Jake Jensen >> If Slytherin was a half-blood, that would explain why Tom Riddle is >> his "own true heir" (CoS, p. 151). Tom's blood lineage, unusual in a >> family of pure-blood fanatics, is identical to Slytherin's (hence >> the "true heir" part). Amey: Welcome abroad, I am also thinking along same lines. I am sure we will see more of him in HBP (hopefully as HBP). Then maybe we can also join Hogwarts as Divination teachers (1 right prophesy is the criterion if I am right). Hermione will be angry with me. Amey, who is giving more time to Sirius-Defence and Percy than to what he should give more time, HBP and *my work* [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 07:02:50 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 07:02:50 -0000 Subject: Harry's Firebolt In-Reply-To: <20040709031658.36673.qmail@web42102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105214 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, AnitaKH wrote: > > akh: > Somehow, when I read Sirius' explanation, I read it that he wrote the note "from" Harry as well as "shipping instructions" to Harry. In other words, Sirius sent Crookshanks with a note from "Harry," requesting a Firebolt, paid from funds in the vault of Sirius Black, Harry's guardian. We don't know that the WW has attorneys and public records, but if they do, both Quality Quidditch and Gringotts could verify that information. > > akh, Asian_lovr2: I've weighed in on this before, so my position is clear. At this point, I will just add a couple of notes re-enforcing AKH's position. The Firebolt was order 'in Harry's name' and the money was to be taken from Sirius's vault; not the account of 'Sirius Black', but from Vault #713 (did I get the number right?). No name, just a vault number. There may have been a signature involved in authorizing the withdrawal but people's official signatures are VERY often difficult to read, but at the same time, not difficult for the bank to verify. "I used your (Harry's) name but told the to take the gold from my own Gringotts vault." PoA -Am Ed PB pg433 In addition, it may have been from the Black Family vault rather than Sirius's personal vault. That comes with it's own set of complications but it is possible. Since the owner of Vault #713 is Harry's guardian, Harry may have had some authority to withdrawn from that account. As far as the Quidditch store clerk's reaction when the order form came in, I suspect it was routine, he noted the broomstick needed and the address to which in should be sent, then threw the form in a pile with the other order forms waiting to be sent to the bank to have the transfer of fund processed. If the form has an authorization for payment then after that, it's up to the bank to validate it and take the appropriate action. As long as all the proper blanks are filled in on the form, I think the store cleck concentrates on the order and leaves the banking to the bankers. Just one man's opinion. Steve/asian_lovr2 From tubadave at normalview.com Fri Jul 9 05:17:42 2004 From: tubadave at normalview.com (Big D) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 05:17:42 -0000 Subject: Tom the Heir of Slytherin & Salazar vs. Godric? (was CoS question) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105215 Brenda: > What if there was another great war (much like Voldemort vs. > Dumbledore) about a thousand years ago, between Slytherin and > Gryffindor. And now, me (Big D): That's pretty much the basis of my long-held idea (mentioned in more detail in post #104120) that all of this goes back to some sort of dispute between Slytherin and Gryffindor, and that the resolution of this ancient conflict will be found in Voldemort and Harry, who are (I think) both heirs of those Founders. Someone asked in a reply to that message (which I only recently saw...too many messages to try and keep up with around here!) what exactly happened with that original dispute, other than Slytherin leaving the school? That I could not answer, but I think JKR may shed a little more light on the subject pretty soon, assuming of course that any of my ideas are actually valid. Big D From anmsmom333 at cox.net Fri Jul 9 07:09:26 2004 From: anmsmom333 at cox.net (Theresa) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 07:09:26 -0000 Subject: Why do we always gang up on Sirius? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105216 Sorry to start a new thread but after working 11+ hours and coming home to laundry and dishes and well over 100 post (at least it was interesting reading) I decided to combine a few comments made about Sirius, James and Snape. (no I am not commenting on the homosexual thread as I see both sides but like Bren keep hollaring 'say it aint so'. Besides, didn't Rosemerta say they flirted with her - 'quite the double act, Potter and Black. Oh how they made me laugh.' So at least he flirted with women. Oh well, who knows.) First of all one quick comment on Snape's house, in GOF (American 1st edition pg 531) it states he 'was part of a gang of Slytherins'. To me I read that as he was a Slytherin because he was PART of them. I just saw a movie recently where the mom tells her son not to hang out with another boy as he is 'part of a gang of hoodlums picking on elderly people', and yes the other boy was a hoodlum. So that is how I read that, plus he just seems like one - ambitious and lover of the dark arts. Now the pensieve scene, I still see that as two good friends who don't like another boy who is a bit odd and also hates them back. I just scanned OotP (American version pgs 640-648 and 670-671) which is the scene and Harry talking to Sirius and Remus about it. The line that struck me the most about it being a two-way street between J/Si vs Snape is when Remus and Sirius mention that ' Snape was just this little oddball who was up to his eyes in the Dark Arts and James ... always hated the Dark Arts.' Also, Remus says on 671 'Snape was a special case. I mean, he never lost an opportunity to curse James, so you couldn't really expect James to take that lying down...' So I always had the impression it was like the Harry vs. Draco rivalry. The other evidence to me is the JKR chat on March 4, 2004 someone had a quote from (sorry I read them in a daily digest so I don't know the post #) 'Kyla: What made Sirius decide to send Snape to the Willow? JKR replies - because Sirius loathed Snape (and the feeling was entirely mutual). You'll find out more about this in due course.' (And boy won't that be nice information to have.) But I do think he was not the innocent victim all the time and can be nasty too - he wanted to feed Sirius' soul to the dementors afterall. Anyway, I think both sides were just nasty to one another. I really hope JKR sticks to that and let's us all know why Sirius tricked Snape. I still maintain that he thought he would a: either not go into the willow or b:never get very far so it would just be a case of Snape needing new undies after soiling himself. I think Sirius was just so comfortable with Lupin since they all hung out every month that (I will use the term I use on my sons who are 9 and nearly 13) his brain disconnected from his mouth and he had a moment of stupidity. Then he was laughing, told James who decided to stop Snape. Also, I think they weren't quite in as much danger as mentioned. In POA, Remus said he glimpsed him at the end of the tunnel and never got to the shack so I always thought of that as peeking through a crack in the door but far enough the werewolf didn't notice. But I agree it was not a good idea and regardless of the outcome, I hope Sirius kissed (not literally) Remus' hiney for a month to apologize. Lastly, James is as bad as Sirius in the pensieve scene and in my opinion worse in some ways. First he stole the snitch and then showed off with it. He rumpled his hair like a narcissistic jock. When they attacked Snape, James kept looking over his shoulder at the girls - he was showing off for. He put soap bubbles in Snapes mouth making him gag. James made the 'it is more the fact he exists' comment. He had the gall to ask Lily for a date during it all. He is also too thick to see how conceited he appears to Lily. However, it always seems like folks talk about how bad Sirius was in this scene. Personally, I had already come to realize in the first few pages of OotP, Sirius came from an unhinged family and his mom loved his brother while shunning him - which I believe started before Hogwarts so he latched onto our Quidditch star from the wealthy family (I know Sirius was wealthy too) who actually liked James and though there is no canon proof, I think James was an only child who was spoiled. Now because I relate Sirius' upbringing to Faramir of LOTR (parent liked brother better and shunned you) I kind of expected his attitude in the pensieve - plus we had the Shrieking Shack mention of the prank for background. James on the other hand, we were thought to be the star athlete, popular boy from a good home. Basically well thought of by all but Snape whose opinion we usually discount anyway. Then James acts like the biggest jerk in the pensieve so I was really understanding Harry's pain here. And I agree James was probably the Alpha male. Anyway, I guess my point is...I think both James and Sirius, were cocky pinheads but basically loveable loyal good-hearted pinheads. Much like Fred and George who I think often say things they should apologizes for too. But we seem to focus more on Sirius' bad behavior. As for Snape, I think he dished out what he took and can be just as cruel. Theresa Who wonders if Snape would have accepted an apology from Harry for peeking in the pensieve and started up the Occlumency lessons again. From claphamsubwarden at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 05:21:32 2004 From: claphamsubwarden at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 05:21:32 -0000 Subject: The Opening Chapter of Book 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105217 GEO: Where has JKR or the novels said that either the Evans has magic in their ancestry? Jim F: Actually, "ancestry" is the wrong word. "Magic in the family" is what I should have said, because of Lily Evans Potter. Chris: Tied in with the thread Aunt Petunia on why Lily was a witch but not her (probably) older sister. I also do not think that this person will be revealed in the first chapter. Though the first chapter will be interesting, how will Harry react to Sirius' "death" whilst under the stewardship of the Dursleys. I mean he exploded at Dumbledore, can we expect more fireworks (wandless magic) from Harry at his realitives. (Imagining a Floating Dudley!!) Arthur Weasley for MoM. (Incidently my fanfic is post OoTP so if you want to see how I think Harry handles the summer at the Dursleys in a Book 6 opening chapter feel free to have a gander(Link Below). PS JKR owns Hp not me (unfortunately)) Chris http://groups.yahoo.com/group/merlin_legacy From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 07:52:15 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 07:52:15 -0000 Subject: house elves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105218 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "madmarymack" wrote: > "niekycrins" wrote: > > ... I think that the house elves will be playing a big part in > > the last books, they may decide to form an information > > network for DD (maybe they already are), they will make a great > > ally in the battle against VM > Mary: > I also think that house elves will play a significant role in the > upcoming books. On rereading CoS, I was perplexed at what appears > to be Dobby's ability to disapparate within Hogwarts when he visits > Harry at the hospital. ... Hermione has told us endlessly that you > can't apparate on Hogwarts grounds, so maybe what he's doing isn't > actually apparating. ...edited... > > ... if house elves can somehow get around the powerful protective > measures placed around Hogwarts, perhaps they will be able to > infiltrate other highly protected areas, i.e. the Death Eaters' > hideouts. I love your idea of them forming an information network. > > I'm a first-time poster, too, which I'm sure will make for the > beginnings of a wonderful thread! > > Mary Asian_lovr2: Here are a couple other tidbits to fuel your theories. Remember at the Quidditch World Cup in the top box when Harry meets Winky? Winky indicates that she knows Dobby, and she and Dobbly seems to have had more than a distant, short, polite, formal conversation. They seemed to know each other well enough for Winky to know what was going on in Dobby's life, and to have expressed her opinions on the subject. This indicates a more friendly and extended conversation which inturn indicates a more friendly and extended relationship. Remember that this is a Death Eater's house-elf (Malfoy's), and the house-elf of the biggest ANTI-Death Eater (Crouch). That makes me think that their association is flying under the radar of their owners. This indicates that elves do have a life and some type of social interaction. I mean, baby elves must come from somewhere. If the elves have some means of social interaction that flys unseen by their owners, that equally implies a well developed network of communication. Also, JKR has commented on Dobby Apparating in Hogwarts by indicating that House-elves have magical abilities that wizards do not, and of course, the opposite is true, wizard's have magic that is beyond the capability of elves. Now one small catch. When Fred, George, and Ron are explaining the nature of house-elves to Harry, one of them mentions that house-elves can only use their magic with their master's expressed permission (paraphrased). That seems like a reasonable rule to suppress 'slaves' and protect masters. It further more raises the question, has anyone in authority ever gone to the Hogwarts house-elves and said, 'you have our full and expressed permission to use any and all of your magical power and ability to protect Hogwarts school, it's staff, and it's students'? [Although, we see from Dobby and Harry's example, that being protected by a house-elf is not without it's own hazards.] We see Sirius make the very mistake of taking Kreacher for granted, of assuming what Kreacher will and will not do. If no one has specifically told the Hogwarts elves it's OK to use their power, will they hesitate at some critical point because the don't know if they have the authority to intervene on behalf of the school? [Consider this, when Harry/Ron/Hermione go to the kitchen and the house-elves offer them tea, several house-elves physically carry a heavy tray of tea and treats over to the table. Surely, house-elves are capable of doing a simple hover charm, or 'locomotor' or 'mobilus' charm. So why physically carry something that is so heavy it takes several elves? Perhaps, no one has specifically told them it's OK to use hover, levitation, or locomotion charms.] Also, relative to Hogwarts, remember that Hogwarts has over 100 house-elves, more than any other dwelling in the UK. One hundred fully-authorize house-elves is one awesome force of power. So behind the scenes and in a head-to-head fight, I see the house-elves as an EXTREMELY valuable asset in the coming war. However, I temper that belief by wondering if there aren't some small details regarding elves that the wizard world and the school have overlooked. Just a thought. Steve/asian_lovr2 From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 07:53:18 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 07:53:18 -0000 Subject: Chapt. Discussion: Chapter 22 - Harry's Support In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105219 Steve wrote : > Let's ask Harry whether on not the support was there. In general, it > doesn't matter if it was there, the important factor is whether Harry > believes it is there and can take some comfort in that belief. Del replies : Aaaah :-) !! But that is another issue *entirely* ! And I understand why we can't agree : you're saying Harry *feels* he gets no support, I'm saying Harry *is* receiving support but can't see it. That's two very different things and one very common problem : not being able to see the support that's offered to you. The best example of that is Harry's reaction after he overhears the adults talking in St Mungo's : he completely misunderstands the looks on his friends' faces, he completely misunderstands the concern of the adults, and he guesses completely wrong what they are all thinking. As a result, he does the last thing they all want him to do and cuts himself from their company. It takes a very tenacious Hermione and a cutting remark from Ginny to force him to see the truth : his friends have always supported him, it was he who was not receiving that support. I, Del, wrote : > > Harry was *dumped* at Mrs Figg's by the Dursleys when they went > > celebrating Dudley's birthday, back before Harry went to Hogwarts. > > Mrs Figg never invited him. It would have looked mightily odd if > > she started inviting him suddenly this summer, for no reason. Steve replied : > Well, here is at least one point I can make with certainty. > > ----OotP - Am Ed HB Pg 2 ---- > '... Mrs. Figg, a batty, cat-loving old lady from nearby Wisteria > Walk, amble slowly past. ... Harry was pleased that he was concealed > behing the bush: Mrs. Figg had recently taken to asking him around > for tea whenever she met him in the street.' > > - - - End Quote - - - Del grumbles : ... too quick in my reading... should have been more careful... grumble grumble ;-) Point well taken, Steve, you were right on that one. Though if I wanted to nitpick, I'd day that it should have alerted Harry : he *was* looking for stange happenings, wasn't he ;-) ? (Just kidding !) Steve wrote : > Well, you are right, I did miss your emphasis on that one point. That > said, sorry but I don't believe you. Clearly the Order was NOT > hanging Harry out as bait. They were trying to do everything possible > to keep Harry out of trouble with the Ministry, and to guard him from > attack. Del replies : Then why keep hidden ? It would have been *much* easier to protect him if he'd known they were there. I came to the conclusion of the bait because it's the only one that makes sense considering the facts we have. In PoA, when people were trying to protect Harry from Sirius, they made sure Harry always stayed within arm's length of a wizard. They do the same later in OoP. But that time they changed the rules. Why ? Not to mention that the best way to make sure Harry doesn't do any magic is to let him know there's another wizard around that's keeping an eye on him. Steve wrote : > I agree that the Order was certainly distracted by priorities of the > moment, but in the grand scheme of things, Harry is an extremely high > priority, and it would have taken very little time, and in my > opinion, fewer additional resource to do it my way. Del replies : Which is precisely why I think the Order didn't *want* to do things your way. I'm sure Hermione pestered everyone she could get her hands on about how awful Harry must feel all alone at Privet Drive : the Order must have known about Harry's needs. And as you said, it would have taken very little to start fulfilling these needs. Yet they didn't. The only logical explanation I can find is that they didn't want to. Steve wrote : > Ron and/or Hermione could have easily Floo to Mrs. Figg and joined > Harry while he wandered around or sat in the garden for an hour or > two. Alternately, Harry could have Floo to the Burrow for an > afternoon. Del replies : As a Squib, I'm pretty sure Mrs Figg's fireplace is not connected to the Floo Network. If it was, the Ministry would have known her presence in Little Whinging. Steve wrote : > It's true the wizard world is not very 'touchy-feely' or very > emotionally supportive place, but given what a vitally significant > character Harry is in and to the wizard world, the tiniest little > effort would have been nice. Harry is already a tortured soul, why > compound that with more torture? Del replies : Exactly : why ? Especially with Hermione pestering them continually about it as I'm sure she did. They must have had a very good reason. Del From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 08:09:52 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 08:09:52 -0000 Subject: Defending Percy In-Reply-To: <1dd.25d3e3f6.2e1f2f12@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105220 I, Del, wrote : > I don't understand : why *should* he ? It was indeed Fudge who was > wrong, not the Ministry policies. Once the Minister changes, the > Ministry will realign itself, and Percy will do good to follow. Batchevra answered : > What if Fudge is followed by somebody who is worse than what Fudge > did in OOTP? Del replies : Whoever it is, it will be someone who believes LV is back, that's already one giant step in the right direction. Their methods could be worse than Fudge's, granted, but at least they would be trying to go in the right direction. Mr Crouch was extremely popular during VWI, even if his methods were very nasty. It wasn't a bad thing to support him then, anf I don't think it would be a bad thing to support another tough-minded Minister either. Batchevra wrote : > The way you put it, Percy is going to follow that person and their > ways with no independent thought. So you approve of Percy being a > follower, which I don't think really gets to who Percy is. Del replies : No way !! I don't see Percy as a follower, but as a supporter, major difference. Percy makes conscious *choices* as to whom he will support. Batchevra wrote : > Percy is ambitious and in his way of thinking, working for the MOM > and head Minister is a step in that direction for power. Del replies : Absolutely. But unlike many other posters, I don't see anything wrong with that. Power does not always corrupt (Dumbledore), maybe Percy will be able to remain clean. If he wants a shot at it, then he's entitled to try, there's nothing wrong with that. Batchevra wrote : > He has to make a choice in the next two books, will he allow his > family to die, or will he stand with them. Del replies : That's just a theory of yours, right ? Because it implies that it is the Ministry who wants to kill his family, which seems unlikely to me. Moreover, even if he decides to stand with his family, that won't prevent them from dying at the hand of LV : he'll just die with them. Del From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 08:34:02 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 08:34:02 -0000 Subject: Percy Weasly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105221 I, Del, wrote : > > We don't know how much he was told of what really happened. My guess > > would be not much. As I said in another post, if Percy had been > > presented with the whole truth beforehand, he would have been able to > > see Fudge's manoeuver for what it was *himself*. He's not stupid. Mel replied : > I'm not sure I agree. Who was present in the hospital wing when all > of this was discussed and explained? Ron, Bill and Molly Weasley. > I think it an extreme long shot that they didn't tell Percy what > they had witnessed and what Fudge admitted to (including giving > Crouch Junior the Kiss, Snape's tattoo coming back, etc.)prior to > his leaving the house (which we know was the first week after the > break, but not the first day). Maybe Percy is stupid. Del answers : You expect Percy to just take Bill and Molly's words of what has happened and turn his life around in a day. But it's not that simple ! 1. The Weasleys don't have all the details. They haven't heard Harry's story, they only have DD's word that LV has returned. They witnessed many things, but we don't know how much they understood. So when they gave their account to Percy, it must not have sounded very coherent. 2. Percy was having a very tough time in his personal life at that moment (the enquiry), he most probably wasn't ready to take so much information in in one go. 3. Percy did not have time to digest what he was told. Unlike his father, who already had the measure of Fudge, Percy believed in Fudge, and he had to entirely reconsider his opinion of him. He had already received a great shock by learning the truth about Mr Crouch's condition, I wouldn't be surprised that he was quite simply unable to process that new shocking information. 4. Percy is still a very young man, who has quite a naive conception of the world. Everything was going according to his beliefs, and then suddenly everything crumbled under his feet in a matter of weeks : Crouch, Fudge, LV. I wouldn't be surprised if Percy went into shock and denial, and not into acceptance. Then when his father crushed his pride, he chose the only way that would keep him from going insane : deny everything. Most people don't accept such shocking news so rapidly : they need time. Percy needed time to sort out the facts, discard his old beliefs and construct new ones. But he wasn't given any time. In less than a week, he was forced to choose : accept our new terrifying order where nothing goes according to the rules you've respected all your life, or keep the old familiar one where things make sense to you. I believe most people would make the same choice as he did. Del From cruthw at earthlink.net Fri Jul 9 04:42:52 2004 From: cruthw at earthlink.net (caspenzoe) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 04:42:52 -0000 Subject: Who's "that awful boy"... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105222 > Geoff: > Can I point you to message 83777, the beginning of a series of > related threads on "The Awful Boy" which may interest you. Thank you Geoff. Very interesting reading. Reassuring to know that I'm not the only one who's noticed this. I still think that "awful boy" is not James, based upon comparison with Petunia's first mention of James, where much less disgust is evident (to my ear). I will be looking for further clues in this regard and also paying closer attention to information provided about Petunia's background. I found another poster's statement in the comments you referred me to regarding there probably being a lot more to her that we yet know very intriguing. Casey From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 08:58:46 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 08:58:46 -0000 Subject: Defending Percy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105223 I, Del, wrote : > > I don't remember reading that Snape and McGonagall told *anyone* > > about what they had witnessed. And I don't remember either that it > > was revealed to the WW that Barty Crouch Jr had not died in > > Azkaban. Fudge knows that, but I'm pretty sure Percy, just like the > > rest of the WW, ignores that fact, and hasn't heard anything from > > Snape or McGonagall's mouth. Andromeda answered : > The fact that no inquiry is made and the evidence of witnesses to > a confession never given should perhaps have been a bit suspicious > that something was being covered up. Del replies : No enquiry was made about what ? Cedric's death or Barty Jr's death ? We still don't know how the Ministry explained Cedric's death but since nobody's been publicly contradicting it, it seems quite convincing. As for Barty Jr, he wasn't even supposed to be alive, and precious few people know he was at Hogwarts impersonating Moody. Andromeda wrote : > IN fact, at the end of OOP, remember Dolores ranting as she's about > to Crucio Harry: > > OOP US ed p747 > "Somebody had to act," breathed Umbridge, as her wand came to rest > pointing directly at Harry's forehead. "They were all bleating > about silencing you somehow - discrediting you - but I was the one > who actually did something about it...." > > Was Percy privy to this _plan_ to discredit Harry? Possibly not, > but he certainly seems to be part of the team. Del replies : I doubt it, since he'd joined Fudge's cabinet barely a month before the Dementor attack on Harry. I seriously doubt they would talk so openly in front of such a fresh new member, no matter how much he insists that he's on their side and against Harry. And even if they were indeed talking about silencing Harry, it didn't necessarily sound suspicious, if you're already convinced Harry is telling huge stories to attract attention or something. Andromeda wrote : > But there was at least one peace offering from the parents' > side... remember Molly in tears at Christmas with her sweater > returned unopened. I don't believe she ever insulted him, yet is > still treated like vermin. Del replies : In a post some months ago, I pointed out that we don't have the details of what happened. There was most likely a note attached to the present, and we don't know what was in the note. Molly is not famous for her diplomacy, so I wouldn't put it past her to have been a bit tactless in her wording. We need more details. Andromeda wrote : > Remember that Percy's father nearly DIED and Percy never even > bothered to contact or visit? Del replies : By the time Percy learned of the attack, he also learned that Arthur would be all right. Moreveor, Arthur was attacked while on Order duty, so Percy's reaction was probably "serves him well !" Not nice, but Percy is a Weasley and the Weasleys are not nice when angered, we've seen that several times in the books. And fear for someone does bring anger when they did soemthing stupid that put them in danger (like when my 20-month-old son stands up on a chair and falls : first I'm terrified and then I'm angry because he had been doing something stupid and disobeying my orders to start with.) Andromeda wrote : > How important is his career to him? I think Ron has it right, Percy > has put his own advancement over everything and anyone. Not good. Del replies : I don't see that Percy is denying the truth to preserve his career. I see that he made an honest mistake as to who said the truth and now he's being fiercely loyal to his side (loyalty : another Weasley trait). Del, who had a cat named Andromeda (whose mother was Eclipse, sister was Orion, and brother was Vega - no Sirius though :-) From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 9 09:36:22 2004 From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 10:36:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040709093622.21277.qmail@web25309.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105224 Arya wrote: > *Udder Pen Dragon* > When asked Harry described kissing Cho as 'wet' (he was both > serious and disappointed). I would not be inclined to even count > this as a first real kiss. > *Becki* > Harry and Cho were under that mistletoe for a half and hour, > (the book states that Harry returned to the common room 30 minutes > later). I think that counts as a first kiss and then some. ---------------- > Udderpd again > From Harry's reaction in the common room I don't think that it was > not "a first kiss and then some" as Becki so aptly put it. My > thought is that their was probably twenty five minutes of Cho crying > and talking about Cedric. Not really what Harry needed at that time. > > Becki again: > I am sorry PenDragan but I have to respectfully disagree with you. > When Harry returned 30 minutes later, and went through the whole > interigation Hermoine asks, "...are you going to see her again?" > Harrys thoughts are "...Of course, she would be expecting him to > ask her out after what had just happened..." (OoP p460, am) > If is was just one little kiss and a whole lot of sobbing, I don't > think Harry would feel Cho would be expecting him to ask her out. *snipped shipping stuff because I say this ain't the best list for that discussion * --------------------- Arya now: I think I need to side with UdderPen here. To a 15 year old and a 1st kiss, yes, just one kiss (and subsequent awkward petting on the back while she sobs) is enough to make a kid think they're practially going steady and so certainly Harry would feel she wanted him to ask her out. I just can't see that kiss going very far at all since I doubt Harry was inclined to let himself enjoy it or further it--how could he when she's likely crying harder and harder? We saw he was confused about possibly being a bad kisser--there was no positive reinforcement for him to believe that by continuing/furthering a kiss, she was getting any enjoyment. It's totally a case of conflicting emotions. He's wanted to kis her for maybe a year or more and here she is, but yet she's also suddenly expressing a bunch of sadness and is obviously not happy. Poor Harry, Cho was such a horrid first anything. I say the kiss happened, her crying got more intense and she likely fell more against his chest while he did the pat on the back thing while he stood, horrified/confused/still-thrilled as she sobbed about Cedric. Udderpd again Again I have re-read the whole section we have been discussingPages 403 to 408 in the UK edition. We have quite firm evidence in the rest of the book that HP/CC is a no go, so lets look at what is happening. Hermione is distracted and mainly concerned with her letter to Viktor when Ron says, "Are you that bad at kissing?" Harry answers "Dunno, maybe I am." "Of course your not," said Hermione absently, still scribbling away at her letter. "How do you know?" said Ron very sharply. Does this bring her to her senses because shortly after Hermione says two things both to Ron: "Ron, you are the most insensitive wart I have ever had the misfortune to meet." then less than half a page later. "Just because you have the emotional range of a teaspoon doesn't mean we all have." I think that here we have Hermione setting out her stall; Ron your one of my best friends but I don't fancy you; and Harry I promise I have never cried when I have dreamed of kissing you. I believe that Ron is worried about the trio. Lastly, Harry still wouldn't know romance if it bit him om the nose. TTFN Udder PenDragon Obsolete old Dingbat ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 09:58:03 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 09:58:03 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Percy... also HBP (was: Re: Dumbledore and Sirius; Percy Weasly; Defe In-Reply-To: <20040709050557.1099.qmail@webmail7.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105226 Amey wrote : > What gave you impression that "both" James and Sirius had picked > fight with him? It is nowhere mentioned that they *both* attacked him > at the same time even once in the whole scene. Del replies : OoP, UK, p,569 "All right, Snivellus ?" said James loudly. Snape reacted so fast it was as though he had been expecting an attack: dropping his bag, he plunged his hand inside his robes and his wand was halfway into the air when James shouted, "Expelliarmus!" Snape's wand flew twelve feet into the air and fell with a little thud in the grass behind him. Sirius let out a bark of laughter. "Impedimenta !" he said, pointing his wand at Snape, who was knocked off his feet halfway through a dive towards his own fallen wand. Students all around had turned to watch. Some of them had got to their feet and were edging nearer. Some looked apprehensive, others entertained. Snape lay panting on the ground. James and Sirius advanced on him, wands raised... (end quote) Granted, they take turn attacking. But that's still 2 of them against Snape on his own. Amey wrote : > Also, we know that he attacked James when he was not watching him, > and could have done again if Sirius hadn't stepped in. Del replies : So what ? James started the duel, and it hadn't been declared over. Everything was allowed and James should have kept a closer eye on Snape. After all, we read on page 349 : "Good one!" said Harry encouragingly, deciding not to point out that in a real duel Neville's opponent was unlikely to be staring in the opposite direction with his wand held loosely at his side. Amey wrote : > Here nobody is coward (I agree not even Snape) because it was always > a fair fight, one-to-one, Del replies : One-on-one, as in James vs Snape, then Sirius vs Snape, then James vs Snape ? That's not *my* concept of one-on-one, when Snape is supposed to keep track of who is his opponent right now. Especially when they are both advancing on him with their wands raised. Amey wrote : > Taking your last point first, I hope any of my 19 year old friends in > this situation chooses to go ahead with his parents more than he goes > ahead with *people who count*. Del replies : Then why do we condemn the DEs' kids for following in their parents' footsteps rather than siding with Harry ? They are siding with their families rather than with the people that count (DD and Harry). Amey wrote : > I mean, it's not just testimony of a boy, his parents have seen it > and they believe it fully. Del replies : Arthur has seen nothing, he wasn't at Hogwarts. Molly has seen what went on in the hospital wing, and I doubt she understood everything (did she figure out who was the Crouch that had been Kissed ? I doubt it) His parents believe. Big deal. Percy believes also, but not the same thing. It all comes down on who believes what, and that never was enough to convince anyone. Amey wrote : > Here, if we are taking example of guru, he did go ahead with a sect > *The Ostrich Sect*, spearheaded by Fudge. Del replies : Granted. But because the guru is not honest, doesn't mean his supporters are not honestly following him. Fudge is not going around telling people to refuse the truth, he's saying that DD is lying, that's nowhere the same. Amey wrote : > As for the important person bit, I am sure it matters more to check > if what he is saying is true than refusing it outright, because you > don't want to believe him. You want to believe all good things doen't > mean only good things will be said to you, Fudge should remember > this. He is a classic *Ostrich* we hear in stories. Del replies : Fudge, yes, but not necessarily Percy. It's Percy I'm defending, not Fudge. I, Del, wrote : > > Maybe that's the heart of the problem : most people don't see Percy > > as a living, breathing, feeling human being, but just as a machine > > with a different label according to the book. Amey replied : > I agree he is a human, but the problem is not people seeing Percy, he > placing those titles before his person and rationale. Del answers : But just like it's not fair for people to see Harry only as the Boy Who Lived, it's not fair for us to see Percy only as his titles. Percy doesn't have enough self-assurance to strip himself of those titles and let people see the real Percy, but that doesn't mean it's fair to see only those titles when discussing him. I, Del, wrote : > > He doesn't realise he's in a war situation, he thinks it's just a > > little conflict, with DD on the losing side. Amey replied : > So he goes with Fudge because he is winning and not thinking who is > right? Speak loads of him. Del answers : I never said that ! Percy goes with Fudge because he thinks he's the one who's right. What I meant is that Percy can't be expected to act like someone having to choose a camp in a war, like some posters want him to, because Percy doesn't realise it's a war situation. He thinks it's just a little feud, with DD being wrong and rightfully losing. I, Del, wrote : > > Percy most probably doesn't know about Crouch Jr, nobody does > > outside of those that were at Hogwarts at the time it happened and > > the people in the Order. Amey answered : > The people in Order include his parents and brothers, 2 of which were > in Hogwarts when all this happened. Need anything more? Del replies : At the time Percy was briefed, the Order was barely being reborn. Bill and Molly were indeed at Hogwarts when things happened, but we don't know how much they understood. The Barty Crouch Jr part in particular is fishy : they heard several people mention the name of Crouch, but I doubt they understood who it was supposed to be. Bill left without being given an explanation, and we don't know if Molly received one later. And even if they did receive an explanation, it was once again a matter of *believing* : they didn't see Barty Crouch Jr, they didn't see LV, they didn't Wormtail, they didn't see the Mark on Snape's arm. It all boils down to faith, and faith is not contagious. Amey wrote : > Ron never despises ambition, all despise Percy (and some Crouch Sr) > for putting ambition over everything else. Del replies : It's not ambition that Percy is putting over everything else, it's his ego. The *only* thing Percy was ever good at was work. Percy was a brilliant student, and he's now a very capable Ministry member. That's the *only* thing he can be proud of : his work accomplishments. That's also the only thing we ever hear other people praise him for, most especially his parents. We never hear them praising him for anything else but his good work. So it doesn't surprise me that Percy should put his work before anything else : because that's where his ego lays. You know, if Arthur had complimented Percy on getting into Fudge's good papers, and had told him that this way he could be very useful for the Order, I'm pretty sure the outcome would have been widely different. If he had acknowledged Percy's hard work, and given him a task to accomplish, rather than denying everything he'd ever worked for and basically tell him he was worthless, Percy might have gladly jumped into the Order boat. It was all a matter of wording : those Weasleys are so hot-tempered ! Del From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Jul 9 10:22:17 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 10:22:17 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105227 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vituperative404" wrote: > > My guess is, one good flashback of Snape crucio-ing a Muggle toddler > will be enough for even the most die-hard Snape advocates to start > looking over the evidence for the Defense. And while I think Snape > is endlessly entertaining and a complex character if there ever was > one, anybody who's done torture/murder/what-have-you with a smile on > their lips and a song in their heart is not going on my Christmas > card list. > Oh, I don't know. To quote W.C.Fields "Anyone who hates children and animals can't be all bad." In the constant to-ing and fro-ing about Snape and Sirius which seems to be one of the dividing lines between the fans, I think there's a basic mis-understanding of where some people are coming from. I think that I can claim credit for first using the identifying labels "Siriophiles" and "Snape-aholics" that highlights the difference. Siriophiles *like* Sirius; they think he's lovely, sexy, maltreated and for all his faults basically cuddly. Snape-aholics find ole Sevvy fascinating, they can't get enough of him, but they're under no illusions - he is a deeply unpleasant character. Most of them would/will probably be disappointed if he ever reforms. It's not often that you find a well written, credible villain in fiction these days and when one does turn up, it's lip-smacking time. When the Anti-Snape Alliance flail away, castigating him for the way he treats Harry and Neville, nurses his grudges against James and Sirius, they're really missing the point. We know all that. It's not news - it's canon. For Snape-aholics the nub of the question is - why? What is the back-story, what are Snape's motivations? When the ASA over-simplify (IMO) with "he hates Harry, James, Sirius and abuses kids - away with him," they're possibly ignoring something that could be central to the plot. He's probably the most three-dimensional character in the books, certainly IMO the best written, he's believable in a way that say, DD isn't. This is why he provokes so much reaction. The counter-reaction generally doesn't claim Snape to be nice but responds in terms of comparing him with memories of RL teachers and trying to explain why Snape could be behaving in this way. Lots of theories, of course, but no proof. Is he acting or at least exaggerating, in his attitude towards Harry? Quite possible. Why does DD trust him so completely? Why has no-one complained about his teaching methods? Why did he leave Voldy and the DEs yet still be able to remain on good terms with Malfoy *and* perform some critical and dangerous yet still unspecified anti-Voldy missions? We don't know, and it's highly likely that when we do get the answers it still won't make Snape a pleasant person, but it might make him understandable. I posted some thoughts about a year ago 80835 "The worst is yet to come" saying in effect that Sevvy has probably done some truly horrible things as a DE. That it's not credible that hanging up-side down and showing grey underwear is his worst memory, that there must be ones that are, from Snape's point of view, bowel-churningly worse. It's just that we haven't seen them yet. Snape has been a central figure in nearly book, yet how much do we really know about him? Not much - all we see is the surface; underneath that it should get a lot more interesting. Now you may not agree; that's up to you. But ask yourself this - why has JKR expended so much effort in presenting us with an apparently monstrous anti-Harry figure on the surface yet left so many tantalising loose ends dangling from behind the mask? That, I think, is what attracts the Snape-aholics. We want to know more. IMO to dismiss Snape because of how he appears to Harry (this is the only POV we have, remember) is to take a sledge-hammer to miss a nut. Kneasy From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Fri Jul 9 10:40:05 2004 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 10:40:05 -0000 Subject: Showing my ignorance (was Homosexuality in HP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105228 <<> <>> The Sergeant Majorette says (ex cathedra) I don't know in what context the name "Jane Hathaway" came up in the thread, but the relevance to the thread may lie in the fact that the character was a mannish, stuffy New England spinster who had an incongruous schoolgirlish crush on big, goodlooking lug "Cousin Jethro". Ironically, or maybe just interestingly, the actress (who is indeed deceased) actually was a mannish New England spinster, and a lesbian. Somebody in this forum (don't remember whether they were quoting or being originally brilliant) said something to the effect that good writing is a relationship between the author and the reader. Nobody, after all, likes to be told *exactly* what to think, but rather to be shown something engaging. By the way, how credible could a story about a fourteen-year old boy be without some wand-under-the-covers references? (yeah, ewww, I know, but...) --JDR From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Fri Jul 9 10:54:41 2004 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 11:54:41 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Death, Harry and Voldemort (and wands) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40EE7971.1020909@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105229 pandrea100 wrote: > maybe it's just another > instance of the uncanny parallel between them that, at a similar age > to Tom, Harry is also led to begin investigating death and eternal > life. By the way, they also both have phoenix feather wands, maybe > the wands were right for them because they 'sensed' that their owners > would investigate death and rebirth? > digger: That reminds me..... I wonder what kind of wand will choose Neville? Do you suppose that Mr Ollivander has any more Phoenix tail-feather wands in stock? Are they so very rare that only two feathers are given for wands every hundred years or so? We never did find out what kind of wand core his father's old wand had, did we? I'd love to witness a scene in Diagon Alley, with Grandma Longbottom and Mr Ollivander watching Neville choosing a powerful wand of his OWN :-) From ellencs44 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 08:06:58 2004 From: ellencs44 at yahoo.com (ellencs44) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 08:06:58 -0000 Subject: just a couple of thoughts about Harry Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105230 This is my first post, so please bear with my ignorance. I've been reading a lot of the more recent posts (golly you guys are prolific) and I've seen a lot about Harry not getting the sort of support he should from the adults around him. I even saw one about DD using "Harry as bait." I'm not sure who that was, sorry. How about this one instead though. Harry as icon. He is a totally iconic character, with the minor exception of his Divination homework, where he's all teenage boy. Virtually every action he takes is to help, to save, for good. I work with children of varying ages, and I've never met a boy that age, who's that good. Also, he's, considering all that's going on around him, a remarkably passive character. He says very little really, but listens a lot, not always to good effect, but he listens, and he watches, usually to very good effect. I also saw a comment about his eyes, which made me think of something else. When people remark on his resemblance to his father, it's always, 'you look so much like James.' but then there's always 'but you have your mother's eyes.' Innocent enough in our world, but in the WW nothing's ever quite that simple, right? And from the Pensieve scene, we do know that Lily Evans saw things around her quite clearly, didn't she. She defended Snape, but when he insulted her, she gave it back pretty well. And when James tried to make Snape pay for that insult, she gave to James pretty well too. Just something to think about. Ok, back to Harry. Hermione mentions in OoTP that Harry has a 'saving people thing.' But isn't that exactly what he's supposed to do. What if our world isn't the only one where babies can be 'created.' What if the prophecy, given, I believe, a year before both Harry and Neville were born, wasn't about Harry at all, but was about Neville. What if, in order to protect Neville, Harry was created, by Dumbledore, who knows exactly what will happen, and lets it, to test the stuff, so to speak, that Harry's made of. Doesn't Harry himself postulate something similar (different reasons, but similar) in SS? I mean, if there is such a thing as a time-turner, it stands to reason there must be more than one, it would be a simple matter for Dumbledore to have one, and go ahead, keeping an eye on Harry. The only problem is, in order for Harry to accomplish what he must, he must have the sort of personality that draws people to him, to help him, and he does. This of course also includes Dumbledore himself. He says so at the end of OoTP, at least that's the way I read it, that he's started to care for Harry, as a father, and it's getting in the way of 'his plans.' He realizes that creating Harry will save lives, but that sacrificing Harry for those plans may be beyond him. We already know it's not beyond Harry though. I don't think that Harry will survive to the end of book 7. Close, though. Sorry Ellen (should I duck now?) From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Fri Jul 9 09:14:09 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 9 Jul 2004 09:14:09 -0000 Subject: Howler and Sirius(was:Sirius' sacrifice) Message-ID: <20040709091409.8655.qmail@webmail31.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105231 >> Roxanne: >> Then I have a question. Aunt P is sent a howler. The voice >> is described as "awful." Who is it? I don't recall >> anyone's voice really being described, outside of >> Dumbledore's soothing voice and LV's high pitched voice. Amey: We are always hearing Dumbledore's soothing voice, but I doubt anybody clould recognise his angry voice in the closed environment of the kithen (because it is a *howl*er). An awful voice filled the kitchen, "echoing" (emphasis mine) in the confined space, issuing from the burning letter on the table. 'Remember my last, Petunia.' So I think it is kind of hard to say whose voice it is, and Dumbledore agrees he sent it. Also, this was the time when only a real threat would work, there was no time to give full explaination to harry or Petunia. All hell... ur.. Azkaban had broken loose. >> Carol: >> and his student would probably have had to >> ship the rat or tarantula home via owl, hoping that the pet would>> >> survive the journey. Amey: Yes, I think it is more probable that the parcel will become a part (meal) of the owl on the way. >> akh: >> Somehow, when I read Sirius' explanation, I read it that he wrote the note "from" Harry as >> well as "shipping instructions" to Harry. In other words, Sirius sent Crookshanks with a >> >> note from "Harry," requesting a Firebolt, paid from funds in the vault of Sirius Black >> Harry's guardian. We don't know that the WW has attorneys and public records, but if they >> do, vboth Quality Quidditch and Gringotts could verify that information. Amey: I am sorry I was not clear in my earlier post. This is what I meant by internet shopping. The shop doesn't know and care who is ordering as long as they have a valid credit card, and they get the money with bank validating the transaction. They get an order from a name, send the order to a shipping address and collect money from an account, that is the end of their transaction. (I mean, even if Sirius used Harry's name, the shop assistant would have gone "wow, it's Harry Potter oredring a Firebolt", and the way things were then for Harry, this might have been an advertisement for Firebolt, maybe more than WorldCup frontrunners ordering them). >> "K": >> Maybe I do see things a bit differently than others. I think we use >> the word *redemption* far too easily. I've seen it used with Tom >> Riddle, Voldemort, and Peter. As if all they have to do is save >> Harry's life and all is forgiven and their crimes are no longer >> punishable. I don't like that thinking at all and I wouldn't like it >> with Snape. Amey: I don't like Snape at all, but yes, I agree with you here. Snape is one of the very few characters in the whole story who can *redeem* themselves. Yes, he is bad, even evil sometimes, but I don't think he is *dark*. He will have to do something great to redeem himself, because I can't see him just telling Harry or even Neville he is sorry for all the bad time he gave them in class at the end. I mean, he enjoys that part. But still, I think he is a *member* of Order, not just by defeinition but by soul. >> Jen >> JKR said this when asked why she killed Sirius: "I'm really, really >> sorry. I didn't want to do it, but there was a reason. If you think >> you can forgive me, keep reading, you'll find out." (World Book Day >> chat, March 2004). Amey: How did I miss this? Anyways, I am not still subscribing to "Sirius adding his sacrifice to charm" theory, but yes, Sirius in netherworld is whole lot free than in this world to help Harry. (I think like many people, that this is where his mirror is going to be important. JKR also tells us this, right?) I mean, even if LV is back, I doubt Fudge would have agreed that Sirius is not mass-murderer. Anyways he is going to be replaced, so that point is void. Wonder what will happen to Umbridge after Fudge is replaced? (Oh gosh, just thought, what if she replaces Fudge... horrible thought). Amey, who is thinking of possible replacements for Fudge... Arthur(ok)... Dumbledore(wow)... Percy(what????).... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Fri Jul 9 10:38:38 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 06:38:38 -0400 Subject: Wands - again Message-ID: <000a01c465a0$e6a0ff20$67c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 105232 In the PS/SS Mr. Olivander says "It's really the wand that chooses the wizard, of course," and later, "And of course, you will never get such good results with another wizard's wand." However, Ron has Charlie's old wand for two years (never mind that it was broken in the second year and caused all kinds of havoc). That wand, obvioulsy, chose Charlie, not Ron, yet Ron seems to get adequate results from the wand most of the time. Sirius uses Ron's - new - wand in PoA in the Shrieking Shack to disarm Harry & Hermione. No apparent problem with the wand there. Wormtail uses LV's wand to kill Bertha Jorkins (I presume it was Worm and not LV), and also to kill Cedric Diggory. No problem with using someone else's wand here. Tom Riddle took Harry's wand in CoS and was going to use it until Harry stabbed the diary with the basilisk fang. Neville used his Father's wand for 5 years. He may be a poor wizard but is that because the wand was ill-suited to him or because Neville lacked confidence? Sirius used somebody's wand in the DoM in OotP. Who's wand is that? One that was left at the Black family home? His Mother's perhaps? He, himself, wouldn't have had a wand as it would have been taken from him when he went into Azkaban. I don't think he could just walk into Olivanders and buy a new one, one that 'chose him'. Did he order it by Owl Post like he did the Firebolt? Were his spells with this wand not working adequately against Bella and that's why he was killed? Somebody, please, put me out of my misery here?! Cathy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Fri Jul 9 10:43:32 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 06:43:32 -0400 Subject: Buckbeak Message-ID: <001301c465a1$94da6fe0$67c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 105233 What in the world is going to happen to Buckbeak? Just had this thought last night. Sirius is gone. We don't know what is going to become of the Black residence. All I can say is if Buckbeak is taken away and executed, I hope he eats Kreacher before he goes. That said, for those who think Sirius is ESE...he does have one redeeming quality. He didn't decapitate Kreacher and hang his head on the wall with the other former house elves. As above, I would have fed him to Beaky ages ago the evil, foul, snotty little toerag! (No need to go on about how House elves are the way they are because wizards made them so. I didn't buy it from DD either. In most instances it may be the case, but IMO, Kreacher was just foul and evil!) Cathy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From HPGroup at colinogilvie.co.uk Fri Jul 9 10:51:06 2004 From: HPGroup at colinogilvie.co.uk (Colin O) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 11:51:06 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's Firebolt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40EE789A.30406@colinogilvie.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 105234 Steve wrote: >The Firebolt was order 'in Harry's name' and the money was to be taken >from Sirius's vault; not the account of 'Sirius Black', but from Vault >#713 (did I get the number right?). No name, just a vault number. > > #713 is where the "Philosopher's Stone" is in PS, when Hagrid and Harry go to Gringott's - I doubt that would be Sirius' vault. (I can't give a page reference, other than its in Chapter 5) -- Regards, Colin From rebecca at chaosring.org Fri Jul 9 07:43:37 2004 From: rebecca at chaosring.org (sylvandraconem) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 07:43:37 -0000 Subject: Thoughts on Book 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105235 Just a thought on the title of book six, which Jo has said is to be 'Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince' She has denied that the HBP is either Harry or Voldemort, so it came to me whilst re-reading CoS the the Half Blood Prince is most probably Hagrid, who is a Half Giant who seems to have some influence with them, otherwise why would Dumbledore have sent him to the Giant's rather than going himself? Thoughts? S.D From n.crins at planet.nl Fri Jul 9 10:08:11 2004 From: n.crins at planet.nl (niekycrins) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 10:08:11 -0000 Subject: house elves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105236 Steve wrote: > So behind the scenes and in a head-to-head fight, I see the > house-elves as an EXTREMELY valuable asset in the coming war. However, > I temper that belief by wondering if there aren't some small details > regarding elves that the wizard world and the school have overlooked. Remember what DD said when HP asked him what he would want to see in the Mirror of Erised? DD would like to see himself holding a pair of thick, woollen socks. Socks?Dobby?Clothes? Dobby was Malfoy's house elf in COS, yet he was able to withhold Ron and Hermione's post from Harry, he was able to close the platform 9 3/4 for Harry and Ron (which saved them later by the way, the Ford Anglia being in the FF). He also knew that the Diary was dangerous for Harry and tried to warn him. Is this good or bad, what would have happened if Harry had not been at HW with the COS being opened... Nieky From pcaehill2 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 9 10:59:42 2004 From: pcaehill2 at sbcglobal.net (pcaehill2) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 10:59:42 -0000 Subject: "His eyes are green..."Re: Toad Surveillance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105237 > imamommy wrote: > [snip] > One "small thing" I thought about form CoS today was the singing > Valentine. The "His eyes are green as a fresh-pickled toad" bit. We still don't know who sent that message. We are left to believe it is Ginny, but we are never told so. [snip] Pam agrees: I was re-reading that valentine message recently, and it hit me as well that it just doesn't sound like Ginny's writing (unless the "dwarf cupids" wrote them themselves?)--BUT, it does sound like something Luna might write!!! Pam From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Fri Jul 9 11:06:02 2004 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 11:06:02 -0000 Subject: The Mirror and the Heart In-Reply-To: <000a01c465a0$e6a0ff20$67c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105238 Hi all, I don't know if the following possibility has been debated already on this group; if it's nothing new, or if it's pointless, I apologize. It's about the Mirror of Erised, and the possible way the series will end. Since the first time I read the series, I had this feeling: maybe the Mirror of Erised is a two-way mirror, and it will play a part in the outcome. I always thought that the sentence written `back to front' on the frame wasn't just a pleasant detail, a game between JKR and her readers. I suppose it's written `back to front' because it's actually the reverse of an inscription you can read `normally' when you stand on the other side of the mirror. The Mirror of Erised could be just like the Stone Arch in the Death Chamber: a gate between two worlds, two dimensions or two realities. JKR herself suggests that the Mirror is maybe just a gate, when she writes in PS/SS (chapter 12): "The Potters smiled and waved at Harry and he stared hungrily back at them, his hand pressed flat against the glass as though he was hoping to fall right through it and reach them." And at the end of the book, the Philosopher's Stone passes through the mirror, from Harry's reflection to Harry himself. One last detail: you all know that in the PoA movie, some details anticipate what happens in the two last books. Did you notice what happens during Lupin's Boggart class? We see a huge wardrobe with a mirror. In the mirror, we can see the students' reflection. The camera moves forward, `passes through' the mirror, and joins the students, who are waiting for the class to begin. The same thing happens at the end of the class, and this time the camera moves `through the mirror', from Harry himself to his reflection. Some say this scene is a goof, because the scar on Harry's forehead `is not at the right place': in fact we are facing Harry's reflection, but the camera movement gives the impression that we are facing Harry himself (hope I'm not too messy here!). Maybe that's one of the `foreshadowing details'? We pass `through the mirror' If you are not convinced, well see the movie again. As for the exact part the Mirror will play in the last book, there are many possible scenarios (and it could be a rather pleasant guessing game ) The Mirror, in PS/SS, represents the seventh ordeal Harry has to pass through to find the Stone. If you acknowledge (as I do) that the seven ordeals are a summary and a metaphor of the whole series (1st ordeal= 1st book, etc ), well, you can suppose we'll see the Mirror again (the Mirror, or something similar) in the seventh book. And, maybe, Sirius' small mirror will play a part in the outcome. Simply because mirrors, small or huge, play an important part in initiatory processes. For example, they are used in the Masonic loges; the initiate is locked in what they call a `meditation room', where he/she finds a curtain and the following sentence: `If you have a genuine wish, if you possess courage and intelligence, draw this curtain.' I saw one of those cabinets once in Venice. I drew the curtain, and faced my own reflection in a mirror. I'm not a Mason myself, but the message seemed to be quite clear: `Face the heart of the issue; face what you are; face your own consciousness,'. I suppose it's what Harry will have to do if he wants to defeat Voldemort. In OotP, he's not ready to do it, as JKR states on her website. She writes, as an answer to a question about Sirius's two- way mirror: "[ ] the short answer is that Harry was determined never to use the mirror, as is clearly stated in chapter 24: `he knew he would never use whatever it was'. For once in Harry's life, he does not succumb to curiosity, he hides the mirror and the temptation away from himself, and then, when it might have been useful, he has forgotten it." Harry doesn't want to know what is wrapped in the parcel his godfather has given him, because he worries for Sirius, and doesn't want to endanger him. It's because he loves his godfather, but also because of what happened before Christmas, because of the nightmare he had in which he `was' a snake and `attacked' Arthur Weasley. At that moment, Harry is afraid of himself. He doesn't know what is happening, and he probably prefers not to know, because he could discover terrible things, things he is not ready to face yet. He doesn't know whether that horrible nightmare didn't reveal what he is actually. He is confronted with a terrible possibility: he could turn out to be a monster himself, just like the Basilisk he killed three years before, just like Voldemort. Harry already knows he is a Parselmouth. He doesn't like that aspect of his own personality. And he has the `average' reaction people tend to have when there's something disturbing concerning their personality: he prefers not to know any more. That's probably why the Occlumency lessons are pointless. They don't work, maybe not because Harry doesn't want to learn, or because Snape is a `bad' teacher. Harry fails because he's not ready to learn, because he's afraid of what is hidden in his heart, in his soul. He's afraid of what he could discover, of what he could be, of what he could become. So he doesn't want to face himself, to face this consciousness the Occlumency lessons make him feel painfully. His scar burns when he tries to learn; it burns because consciousness is a burning thing. We can't blame him for trying to avoid the pain, for trying to forget. But Harry will have to learn to face himself in order to defeat Voldemort; he will have to face his own heart and soul. It's a vital question. It's `the heart of it all', to take JKR's own words. The solution is hidden in Harry's heart, because there his soul and consciousness lie. JKR writes in PS/SS, chapter 15, when Harry realizes Voldemort is back: "It was as though an iron fist had clenched suddenly around Harry's heart". That iron fist symbolizes at the same time Harry's doom falling over him, and an unconscious protection he tries to settle between him and that doom. At that very moment, when Harry realizes Voldemort is still `alive' and is back, he probably knows, consciously or not, that he will have to play a key part in what is going to happen. He doesn't know he is the Prophecy Boy (though we readers can at that moment have the intuition, because there are in the chapter many references to the stars writing Harry's destiny through the sky), but he has been told he was famous for defeating once the Dark Lord. How couldn't he understand that he will have to face him again, that maybe the others are waiting for him to protect them, because there's something in him that made him vanquish Voldemort? But it's not an easy thing to accept, especially for an eleven-year old boy. It's a burden an adult could barely take, because it requires a very hard to gain knowledge. If he wants to know what gave him the power to vanquish Voldemort when he was a baby, Harry will have to examine his own heart, his own consciousness. And that introspective work is not easy, even to an adult. Becoming `a well prepared mind' is a very hard job. Voldemort didn't manage to face his own consciousness; we see the result. `Erised stra ehru oyt ube cafru oyt on wohsi'; `I show not your face but your heart's desire': how could Harry learn better than facing the Mirror of Erised? Two Knuts, and one more for Hans Amicalement, Iris From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Jul 9 11:07:50 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 11:07:50 -0000 Subject: Snape's mission In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105239 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > > Neri: > I've recently managed to convince myself that after the first war > Snape gave the Ministry a false testimony that acquitted Malfoy (and > most probably also Nott, Crabbe, Goyle, Avery and Macnair) of being > DEs. This was probably done by DD's directions in order to regain > their trust in Snape. Canon support for this is not only > that "lapdog" accusation by Sirius. In the end of GoF, when Harry > named Malfoy as a DE in front of Fudge, "Snape made a sudden > movement, but as Harry looked at him, Snape's eyes flew back to > Fudge". Several paragraphs later in this scene Snape makes the > surprising gesture of showing his Dark Mark to Fudge (and with Molly, > Bill and McGonagall present). Does Snape feel just a tiny bit guilty > about Fudge refusing to believe Harry, because he is the one who > originally convinced Fudge that Malfoy is innocent? Was Fudge Minister or senior in the Ministry at the time of the trials? I don't think he was. Snape knows something, I think. That or adding 2+2 and coming up with an answer. Mafoy makes generous 'contributions' and is a welcome guest in Fudge's office; McNair was the Official Executioner in PoA. Just how close to known/suspected DEs is Fudge? Will he defend his 'friends'? And the answer is yes. Snape tries again by showing his own Dark Mark; Fudge is unmoved. Snape (and by extension us) now know that Fudge is not to be trusted. Kneasy From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Fri Jul 9 11:06:53 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 07:06:53 -0400 Subject: HBP = Draco Message-ID: <001c01c465a4$d7ede2f0$67c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 105240 I don't believe this for a second but the thought struck me as I was reading "The Noble and Most Ancient House of Black" chapter of OotP. Sirius and Harry are discussing the Black family tapestry. Sirius says: "Leave? Because I hated the whole lot of them: my parents with their pure-blood mania, convinced that to be a Black made you practically royal..." While still looking at the tapestry, Harry notices 'A double line of gold embroidery linked Narcissa Black with Lucius Malfoy and a single vertical gold line from their names led to the name Draco' and Harry says, "You're related to the Malfoy's!" Draco is 'half blood' - half Black blood through his mother. The Black family believes that to be a Black made you practically royal...Prince. Just a random thought...I have really given very little consideration to who the HBP might be. I had already finished reading CoS and was well into PoA (for about the 10th time) when the announcement of the title for book 6 was made. I'll read it again later and think on the subject. Cathy - who has always thought there is a connection between Harry and GG, whether that makes GG the HBP, I haven't thought it out that far [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From marnyhelfrich at comcast.net Fri Jul 9 10:36:06 2004 From: marnyhelfrich at comcast.net (Marny Helfrich) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 06:36:06 -0400 Subject: Aunt Petunia Message-ID: <030901c465a0$8b03eec0$8e2f8c45@mynewputer> No: HPFGUIDX 105241 Chris wrote: >Secondly has JKR in her infinite wisdom avoided answering this > question by only having Lily as the only Muggle-born with a sister or > will Dean/Hermione have a brother/sister that is magical? And I (marny) suggest: Well, I think the implication is that Collin and Dennis Creevey are muggle-born (since Collin says his father is a milkman and he doesn't know about wizard pictures and he gets attacked by the basilisk). Marny From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jul 9 11:43:28 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 11:43:28 -0000 Subject: Dean is Gary? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105242 > Alina responded: > All the information is on her website at http://www.jkrowling.co.uk. > > > Carol adds: > Since JKR changed Dean's name, she may well have changed or eliminated > the backstory, too. In other words, Dean may be the Muggleborn he is > thought to be in CoS rather than a Half-blood who thinks he's a > Muggleborn. snip > > Carol, who will be very surprised if Dean is the HBP Potioncat: I just re-read that portion. It sounds to me that Dean's backstory is still valid. She is using present tense as she describes his backstory and then comments about it probably not getting into the books. Dean would have learned about his father as the series developed, but now he won't. And isn't that one of the sad things about war...people disappear and no one knows why. And Dean has this great heritage that he knows nothing about. (quick, someone remind me that this is fiction!) But, since she says his backstory most likely won't make it into the books, I don't think he will be the HBP. Potioncat From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jul 9 11:58:18 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 11:58:18 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105243 Alla wrote: > I keep coming back to Snape's betrayal. I think I also said that > rather recently, but it bears repeating. Betrayal is a horrible thing to me, but does any of us really feel that Snape betrayed his firends and Master or more like he came to his senses when he came back to Dumbledore? Potioncat: I know what you mean. Our spies are good, their spies are bad. But in this case, the "other" side is so bad, there doesn't seem to be any ambiguity. This reminds me of two things. DD saying to Fudge, this is where we come to a parting of the ways. (or something along that line) And my telling my teens, "If that's what your friends want you to do, they aren't your friends." What bothers me, is this: Hasn't Snape betrayed the children in his House? Potioncat From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jul 9 12:08:52 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 12:08:52 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105244 > Alla: > > > I tell you one thing. Since I love redemption in the fictional > characters, I can forgive him being a DE (only by value of him being > a fictional character :)), but if we will know for sure that he > participated in killings, I will be wanting to ask Snape apologists > why is it easier to forgive a former murderer than a former school > bully. Even if Sirius planned to kill Snape, which I don't think was > true, this is soo not the same. Potioncat: This reminds me of a Parable. It's called the Unforgiving Servant and it really fits (given what we know so far) JKR would be familiar with it. In that story a master forgives his servant a huge debt. That servant then goes to a lower servant and demands payment on a small debt, going so far as to throw the lower servant into jail. But the master finds out and the unforgiving servant is the one who ends up in jail. Not that JKR will follow that plot, but the "human behavior" of it is consistant. I'm of course thinking of Snape who cannot forgive Black. And, speaking for Snape apologists, I understand why Snape feels Black was trying to kill him. I doubt that he really was. On the other hand, Black doesn't seem too sorry about it. And I'll decide what to think about Snape after we find out what he did or didn't do. But I'm not too sure I want to think about that now. Potioncat who thinks both Snape and Black are good but not nice. From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jul 9 12:25:51 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 12:25:51 -0000 Subject: McGonagall's favouritism. Was: Re: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105245 Pippin: > > I am not saying that McGonagall is as egregiously unfair as > Snape is, only that this kind of thing doesn't raise any eyebrows > at Hogwarts. > Potioncat: Not to mention the time she did not give Gryffindors any homework before the Quidditch match. (I will admit, it's presumed she did give homework to the other Houses, but not stated.) From pcaehill2 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 9 11:26:45 2004 From: pcaehill2 at sbcglobal.net (pcaehill2) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 11:26:45 -0000 Subject: Joke Shop Weapons??? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105246 Just finished re-reading GoF, and the thought struck me: could F & G's new joke shop at Diagon Alley be a kind of headquarters for devising weapons to fight DE's & LV? Imagine the possibilities: Mssrs. Crabbe & Goyle reaching for their wands and pulling out haddocks and parrots...DD turning into a canary at the last moment...DE's sinking into a portable swamp...fancy fireworks as a diversionary tactic? lol, what do you think? Pam (who thinks the twins' last battle with Umbridge foreshadowed greatness in future battles for the dynamic duo) From captain_suburbia at yahoo.com.au Fri Jul 9 11:40:28 2004 From: captain_suburbia at yahoo.com.au (captain_suburbia) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 11:40:28 -0000 Subject: Lupin (was: Eastern European HBP?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105247 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "boyd_smythe" wrote: > > Entropy wrote: > > So, how did [Lupin] gain a knowledge of the Dark Arts vast enough to > become a Hogwarts professor (and a good one, to boot!)? Durmstrang > seems a good a place as any to learn first-hand about the Dark Arts. > And, knowing about their affinity for all things "dark" , would > probably be more apt to hire a werewolf than any other "respectable" > wizarding school. > > :: Entropy :: > > boyd: > Perhaps a simpler explanation (although probably less fun :)) is the > more obvious one: > > Lupin is a smart, exremely capable wizard, one of the four most > talented wizards that made up the Marauders. He and the other > Marauders explored Hogwarts and its surrounding extensively, probably > encountering and dealing with many of the beasties it hides. They > obviously learned magic that other students, other teachers even, > didn't know, such as how to become an animagus and how to create the > Marauders Map. And if their treatment of Snape is any indication, > they'd better have known how to defend themselves in a fight, too. > Pretty strong training already. > > Then, upon leaving Hogwarts, Lupin disappears from our radar screen. > However, since he was a werewolf, he probably tries to find remote > locations to live outside of persecution, thus his ragged clothes. And > in these remote locations, he may well have occasionally encountered > beasties. So he gets frequent practice with all kinds of creatures. > And when he is found once in a blue moon by persecutors, he has to > defend himself. > > I mean, what better good guy to teach DADA than a werewolf? > > Maybe an ex-DE? (ooh, did I just say that?) > > --boyd You know, I kind of like the idea of Lupin freelancing in the DADA business for a living. If he had an aptitude for it at school, and, perhaps, developed it in his work for The Order (Mark I), then maybe he could have continued doing it afterwards. Here in Australia there are people who you can call on if you've got a feisty snake or rampant possum loose in the house; people who just have a knack for that sort of thing. The guys I've met who do this (and having been raised in the country, I've met a few!) have tended to be a bit rough and shabby, a bit feral, slightly intimidating, but remarkably skilled at what they do. You're really grateful to have them around, but probably wouldn't invite them around for Sunday lunch with your Mum. So, back to Mr Lupin. Removing troublesome ghouls or other errant dark beasties could be a source of income for someone who has trouble paying the bills any other way. Like the snake guy, Lupin's a bit of a fringe dweller. Obviously, the name on his case indicates that he has taught before, but, in between times? Something nasty in the attic? Speak to that shabby guy up on the hill - he'll get rid of it for you. Just a thought I've had for a while. - Burbs From rebekarg at yahoo.com.br Fri Jul 9 11:44:02 2004 From: rebekarg at yahoo.com.br (=?iso-8859-1?q?Rebeka=20Gomes?=) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 08:44:02 -0300 (ART) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040709114402.49980.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105248 I've read that many of you are puzzled about the "live" part of prophecy, with Harry and Voldemort being alive at the same time. That's how I see it: By the time Voldemort attacked Harry, he became Vapormort, and wasn't exactly a living being. Then, when Voldemort regained his power, he used Potter's blood, maybe it explains the very fact of both being alive at the same time. ===== ~Rebeka _______________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail agora com 100MB, anti-spam e antivrus grtis! http://br.info.mail.yahoo.com/ From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jul 9 12:53:52 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 12:53:52 -0000 Subject: Broderick Bode's visitor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105249 > Carol: > Without question, the sender is a DE (it surely wouldn't be LV > himself), but we don't have any solid evidence to implicate the old > man. Is he a clue or a red herring? With luck, we'll find out in Book 6. > Potioncat: It's Mark Evans! Potioncat who's dashing off now before people throw things! And apologising for the one liner. From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 9 13:16:52 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 13:16:52 -0000 Subject: Showing my ignorance (was Homosexuality in HP) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105250 Thanks to all the people who kindly replied to my query "Who is Jane Hathaway". Stupid question really, as we do have The Beverley Hillbillies in England and I should have remembered her. And I totally agree she would have made a brilliant Grubbly-Plank. Shame she is both American and dead. Sylvia From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 13:29:20 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 13:29:20 -0000 Subject: Joke Shop Weapons??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105251 > Pam wrote: > Just finished re-reading GoF, and the thought struck me: could F & > G's new joke shop at Diagon Alley be a kind of headquarters for > devising weapons to fight DE's & LV? Imagine the possibilities: > Mssrs. Crabbe & Goyle reaching for their wands and pulling out > haddocks and parrots...DD turning into a canary at the last > moment...DE's sinking into a portable swamp...fancy fireworks as a > diversionary tactic? > Neri: Personally I haven't the slightest doubt that this will happen. In fact, I suggested this idea in post #90889 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/90889 and I passionately demand credit for it until shown an even earlier post. Discuss it all you want, just remember: I SAID IT FIRST! ;-) Neri, who is now wondering if you can register HP predictions as a patent. From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Fri Jul 9 13:33:30 2004 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 13:33:30 -0000 Subject: The Mirror and the Heart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105252 Iris_ft wrote: > `Erised stra ehru oyt ube cafru oyt on wohsi'; `I show not your > face but your heart's desire': how could Harry learn better than > facing the Mirror of Erised? Nifty post, Iris, and I'm sure Hans enjoyed his Knuts! Just a few thoughts at random here. Rather than stepping through the mirror to read the inscription from the other side, another way of looking at it would be that you turn your back on the mirror to use it as then the inscription is then the 'right way round', even though you cannot actually see it. I'm thinking that the meaning of this is not that you suppress our heart's desire (that is represented by leaving the mirror entirely) but that you put it in its proper place. To face the mirror is to obsess over the things you want and maybe cannot have; to turn your back on it ('I show not your face...' is a clue?) is to accept your heart's desire and face the world in that knowledge. Another thought about Harry's scar. It is easy to think of it as a disfiguring thing, the visible sign of a lurking inner Voldemort, but that's not true. Harry got the scar, not because Voldemort cursed him, but because Harry, with Lily's protection, repelled that curse. So the scar is in some way connected to Harry's strength, and if he focuses on it, despite it being a source of pain and a conduit (seemingly) for evil, he will understand his power. In effect, the scar stands for those things you mention that Harry is afraid of in himself. Christians will make the connection that a perfect body can yet be scarred. We never find out *how* Dumbledore set the mirror so that you could only get the stone if you didn't want to use it. I had assumed that it was just a piece of magic, but perhaps it is in some way a use of the intrinsic operation of the mirror. In effect, the mirror *will* give you your heart's desire, but only if that desire is in itself a form of renunciation, a form of selflessness. Not sure what I mean here. If, for example, at the end, Harry's desire was not to destroy Voldemort but to see him restored to what he could have been, the mirror might be able to grant it? That sort of thing, though that sounds a little facile as stated. David, who always does a double take when his phone shows that his messages are 'Erased' From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Jul 9 14:08:54 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 14:08:54 -0000 Subject: Chapt. Discussion: Chapter 22 - Harry's Support In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105253 > Del replies : > Then why keep hidden ? It would have been *much* easier to protect him if he'd known they were there. I came to the conclusion of the bait because it's the only one that makes sense considering the facts we have. In PoA, when people were trying to protect Harry from Sirius, they made sure Harry always stayed within arm's length of a wizard. > They do the same later in OoP. But that time they changed the rules. Why ? > Not to mention that the best way to make sure Harry doesn't do any magic is to let him know there's another wizard around that's keeping an eye on him.<< The situation is different. In PoA, everyone, Dumbledore and the MOM, is on the same page: Harry is in danger and needs protection. In OOP, Dumbledore thinks Harry is in danger both from Voldemort and the Ministry, while Fudge thinks Harry and Dumbledore are plotting to unseat him. Fudge and Umbridge would put the worst possible interpretation on it if friends of Dumbledore's were spotted around Privet Drive--Harry isn't the only one who could be framed, you know. Wouldn't Umbridge just love to get something on Lupin? And thanks to the mind-link, Dumbledore couldn't let Harry in on anything unless he was willing to risk Voldemort learning about it too. Until the protections on Grimmauld Place were beefed up and he was ready to remove Harry from Privet Drive, the only comfort Dumbledore could safely send was Mrs. Figg--and it was Harry's choice not to take advantage of it. If he'd been thinking a little more clearly, he'd have realized he could at least have watched television at her house without being shooed away. > Steve wrote : > > I agree that the Order was certainly distracted by priorities of the moment, but in the grand scheme of things, Harry is an extremely high priority, and it would have taken very little time, and in my opinion, fewer additional resource to do it my way. > > Del replies : > Which is precisely why I think the Order didn't *want* to do things your way. I'm sure Hermione pestered everyone she could get her hands on about how awful Harry must feel all alone at Privet Drive : the Order must have known about Harry's needs. And as you said, it would have taken very little to start fulfilling these needs. Yet they didn't. The only logical explanation I can find is that they didn't want to.<< Pippin: Um yes, and everyone is going to take advice from fifteen year old Hermione? And what could they do anyway? The adults at Grimmauld Place are in no position to comfort Harry: they're just as depressed, frightened, miserable and traumatized as he is. Look at the state Molly's in. And Sirius. And Arthur, feuding with Percy. Mundungus, skiving off to buy dodgy cauldrons. Dumbledore, deciding that his affection for Harry is a liability. Etc. And it appears that until Snape reported, they had no more information than Harry had about what Voldemort was up to, so they *couldn't* have told him anything even if they'd wanted to. Pippin From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 14:16:47 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 14:16:47 -0000 Subject: Wands - again In-Reply-To: <000a01c465a0$e6a0ff20$67c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105254 Cathy Drolet wrote: > In the PS/SS Mr. Olivander says "It's really the wand that chooses > the wizard, of course," and later, "And of course, you will never get > such good results with another wizard's wand." > > However, (snip list of people who managed pretty well with other people's wands) Del replies : I can give you an analogy, but I don't know if it's correct, that's for you to see if you like it. Let's talk cars. I'm not a natural driver. I'm pretty good at driving my own car but I have problems driving other cars. I take a very long time getting used to another car. The best way to describe it is to say that I'm clumsy with another person's car : I will mes-estimate the width or the length of the car, I will mes-estimate the time it takes for that car to brake (once, I bumped into the car in front of me...), I can't find where the clutch catches, etc... I'm even sensitive to any change made to my car. I had my car before I got married, so I was really used to it. When I started to share it with my husband, I noticed that the car would respond differently (particularly on braking) after my husband had driven it. Needless to say, I *hate* driving other people's cars, or rented cars. And I sure won't attempt to do miracles with them. With my own car, I can perform some delicate manoeuvers, but I won't even try them with any other car. My husband, on the other hand, can drive anything without any problems. He can do almost anything with almost any car. He's a natural driver. But still, he will manage the best manoeuvers with a car he knows better, of course. Well, maybe it's the same with wizards and wands. Some wizards are so good that they can manage almost anything with any wand. Others can perform any usual magic with any wand, but wouldn't try special spells with a wand that's not theirs. And still others (like Neville maybe) can't do anything good with any other wand but theirs, unless they really practice hard. Does that help ? Del From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Jul 9 14:26:17 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 14:26:17 -0000 Subject: The Mirror and the Heart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105255 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley" wrote: > > Rather than stepping through the mirror to read the inscription from > the other side, another way of looking at it would be that you turn > your back on the mirror to use it as then the inscription is then > the 'right way round', even though you cannot actually see it. > It's about time the Mirror turned up in the posts again; a sadly neglected and IMO potentially important artifact. Twice I've tried to get a thread going on it but both times posters preferred to concentrate on other things. This "if you're on the other side of the mirror then the writing is the right way round" is a possible clue that I've mentioned before. In the WW mirrors are often much more than looking glasses - they are also methods of communication, either by the mirror itself (Harry has met a couple of these) or by someone not physically present (Sirius's mirror). Erised could fall into the latter category. Consider: the Stone being transferred to Harry's pocket wasn't Harry's desire, but it could well have been Dumbledore's. And I've always felt that DD skimmed over his explication of how the Mirror worked. I'll quote part of a previous post: ["At the end of PS/SS DD is doing what is now accepted as the traditional final scene of pulling the wool over Harry's eyes, hiding where the bodies are buried and re-writing the past to fit his needs. "I'm glad you asked me that. It was one of my more brilliant ideas, and between you and me, that's saying something. You see, only one who wanted to *find* the Stone - find it, but not use it - would be able to get it, otherwise they'd just see themselves making gold or drinking Elixir of Life. But no more questions." Pause a moment, wasn't that what Quirrell was up to? Finding the Stone? He had no intention of using it - "I see the Stone...I'm presenting it to my master...but where is it?" The most significant part of DD's speil was the last four words:- "But no more questions."] - 95633. Since the Mirror belongs to DD, it's possible that it shows you what DD wants you to see. It's his desires, what he wants to happen that are reflected in the Mirror. Which would mean that he also wanted Harry to see his family and for Ron to see himself as a success, not just the youngest brother trailing behind his elders. And if DD is on the other side of it, it would be easy for him to watch Harry when he sneaked out at night to sit in front of it. It could be a very nice twist - "I show not your face but your hearts desire". Yeah, but whose face and whose desire? The one in front of the Mirror or the one on the other side of it? Kneasy From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Fri Jul 9 14:37:44 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 14:37:44 -0000 Subject: Half Blood Prince vs. Half-Blood Prince or Halfblood Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105256 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "antoshachekhonte" wrote: > > UNLESS.... > > UNLESS she doesn't mean a prince who is a half-blood. snip > > The prince in question is half-vampire? (Dear me, I really don't wish to restart Vampire! > Snape threads, even as JKR has fairly emphatically shut them down....) "K": To be honest I'm unsure what kind of prince it will be. BUT isn't it possible for it to be a Prince of Darkness? ^_^ A half-vampire? From ExSlytherin at aol.com Fri Jul 9 15:19:51 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 15:19:51 -0000 Subject: HBP = Draco In-Reply-To: <001c01c465a4$d7ede2f0$67c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105257 Cathy Drolet wrote: > Draco is 'half blood' - half Black blood through his mother. The Black family believes that to be a Black made you practically royal...Prince. Just a random thought... Mandy here: Throughout the series the term Half-Blood has come to mean a wizard with part muggle blood. I think we can safely assume that both the Blacks and Malfoys have remained consistently pureblooded through their long history. While Draco is half a Black and half a Malfoy, he is not half-blooded by the definition of the term as described in the WW. There are exceptions like Andromeda Black marrying Ted Tonks. But this does not affect Draco blood status. Ted and Andromeda's daughter Tonks is a half-blood, but were looking for a prince not a princess. Also as much as the Blacks might consider them royalty, I don't get the feeling that Narcissa married down at all. She either married sideways or up, depending of the Malfoy family history. And the only way for Draco to be a halfblood, is if Lucius turns out not to be his father. This would be very interesting, but as they are described to look so much like each other, it seems unlikely. Mandy From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 15:44:13 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 15:44:13 -0000 Subject: Joke Shop Weapons??? The war and the childrens positions in it In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105258 pcaehill2 wrote: Just finished re-reading GoF, and the thought struck me: could F & G's new joke shop at Diagon Alley be a kind of headquarters for devising weapons to fight DE's & LV? Imagine the possibilities: Mssrs. Crabbe & Goyle reaching for their wands and pulling out haddocks and parrots...DD turning into a canary at the last moment...DE's sinking into a portable swamp...fancy fireworks as a diversionary tactic? lol, what do you think? Pam (who thinks the twins' last battle with Umbridge foreshadowed greatness in future battles for the dynamic duo) vmonte responds: I posted back in January a theory that the quidditch postions the children had were symbolic for the roles they would play in the war. Here are some of my original with some new thoughts: The Quidditch positions are symbolic. If Ron becomes team captain, then he will lead an army of children (he will be their strategist). Also, Ron's position is Keeper, so he will act as a goalie to block shots (or the shot that is heading for Harry). Ron may sacrifice himself and take a fatal hit for Harry. I've often heard fans say that Ron is not capable of leading the children during the war because he hasn't, as of yet, shown signs of having leadership qualities. I disagree. Ron's position in Quidditch is of Keeper. The Keeper acts as a goalie to block shots. Ron is Harry's Keeper, his symbolic protector. Ron really takes charge at the end of SS/PS. He has no problem telling Harry and Hermione that he knows what he is doing, and that they need to listen to him. (page 282, U.S. version) Ron turned to the other two. "This needs thinking about..." he said. "I suppose we've got to take the place of three of the black pieces..." Harry and Hermione stayed quiet, watching Ron think. Finally he said, "Now, don't be offended or anything, but neither of you are that good at chess--" "We're not offended," said Harry quickly, "Just tell us what to do." Ron knows that he is the strategist, and so do his friends. When is a strategist most needed?, during a war of course! Ron is always watching out for Harry -- even when they were mad at each other during GoF, Ron still went downstairs to check on Harry (when Harry was talking to Sirius's floating head in the fireplace). I also think that Ron is willing to sacrifice himself to save Harry; we see it during the chess game: "That's chess! snapped Ron. "You've got to make some sacrifices! I take one step forward and she'll take me -- that leaves you free to checkmate the king, Harry!" Is this foreshadowing? Will Ron sacrifice himself to Belatrix? George and Fred will be the Beaters. They will protect and accompany the "Chasers" on the battle field. Instead of launching "Bludgers" to attack their opponents they will launch their own very large arsenal of homemade weapons. I could see Hermione leading the elves in the war perhaps; although she is going to need all the help she can get. I don't think she is going about SPEW the right way at all. Dobby mentions in chapter 10 of COS: "But mostly, sir, life has improved for my kind since you triumphed over He-Who-Must-Not-Be- Named. Harry Potter survived, and the Dark Lord's power was broken, and it was a new dawn, sir, and Harry Potter shone like a beacon of hope for those of us who thought the Dark days would never end, sir..." I think the kids will be able to rally the elves onto their side if they go about it from an elfs point-of-view. If Hogwarts is destroyed along with the OOTP (as well as many other wizard families), the elves will be out of a job. I don't think they will want to lose their jobs and go back to work for the nasty DE wizards. I'm not sure about how Luna is going to help yet. She seems to be very insightful about things. She may be a seer or have skill in reading Runes (a class Hermione is now taking in school). Hermione and Luna may at some point work as a team. They are Polar opposites and it may be useful to combine their talents. Neville is more difficult to interpret. It seems that Neville is truly brave. He is not afraid to stand up against his friends when he believes they are wrong. He may turn out to be the voice of reason at some point in time. I do think that his skill in Herbology will be pivotal. Who is uncle Algie? He seems to have trageted Neville much in the same way that DD targets Hermione, Harry, and Ron. Is he training Neville for a future role? *** In Quidditch, Harry is the seeker of truth in the wider story. He is the only person on the team who can go for the Golden Snitch and by attaining it he can win the match in itself. It's always up to Harry--like in the wider story. *** (This bit is from someone who was commenting on my post at another website.) Harry's the "Seeker" so he will be busy chasing one thing the "golden snitch"--perhaps symbolic for an OOTP traitor. I wonder if the snitch represents the person that overheard the prophecy at the bar. Could this person be the true vilian of the series? Ginny Weasley will be one of the Chasers (although she was also a Seeker while Harry was banned--so she may serve two roles during the war). I believe that Ginny may, at one point during the war, take up Harry's role, or come to his rescue. There is a reason why JKR included this character to the books. She must play some vital role in the series since Tom Riddle's diary could have been easily given to Ron or another Weasley. It is interesting that JKR inserted a female Weasley into the story. Love interest for Harry? (Let me just say that if Harry does indeed get a real girlfriend in book 6/7, she has got to be a tough cookie. I'm thinking Ginny is that girl.) Ginny it seems to me will be very important during the war. She is the only child, besides Harry, that has had direct contact with Ton Riddle/Voldemort. Should Harry be talking to Ginny about her experience? These two should probably be going over their personal experiences, they may have unknowingly gleaned some information that may turn out to be to their advantage. Does Ginny know what Tom's weaknesses are? In the end the children will be the heroes (as usual), not the adults! Ron will gain more confidence as the books progress. vivian - Sorry for the long post... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/87934 From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 9 16:09:35 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 16:09:35 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105259 "vituperative404" wrote: > > My guess is, one good flashback of Snape crucio-ing a Muggle > > toddler will be enough for even the most die-hard Snape advocates > > to start looking over the evidence for the Defense. And while I > > think Snape is endlessly entertaining and a complex character if > > there ever was one, anybody who's done torture/murder/what-have- > > you with a smile on their lips and a song in their heart is not > > going on my Christmas card list. Kneasy: > Oh, I don't know. To quote W.C.Fields "Anyone who hates children > and animals can't be all bad." SSSusan: It's comments like this, Kneasy.... Well. ;-) Kneasy: > In the constant to-ing and fro-ing about Snape and Sirius which > seems to be one of the dividing lines between the fans, I think > there's a basic mis-understanding of where some people are coming > from. I think that I can claim credit for first using the > identifying labels "Siriophiles" and "Snape-aholics" that > highlights the difference. > > Siriophiles *like* Sirius; they think he's lovely, sexy, maltreated > and for all his faults basically cuddly. > > Snape-aholics find ole Sevvy fascinating, they can't get enough of > him, but they're under no illusions - he is a deeply unpleasant > character. Most of them would/will probably be disappointed if he > ever reforms. It's not often that you find a well written, credible > villain in fiction these days and when one does turn up, it's lip- > smacking time. SSSusan: But check out my handle. I enjoy *both* characters. I'm not sure there's always a dividing line. I *like* Sirius. Sexy, yes, that thought did occur to me. Maltreated--well, crappy family, unfairly imprisoned, lost his best friends & feels tremendous guilt about it-- yeah, I guess that fits. I don't find him CUDDLY, though. I *like* Sirius because I have an impression that, in spite of his faults, he had a tremendous capacity for FUN which likely would have resurfaced again had he lived & the White Hats won. Another very important reason that I like him is because of what he represents and MEANS to Harry. I adore Harry [yeah, I know, you're rolling your eyes :-)]. I don't make excuses for everything he does--I'm not a BLIND follower- -but I really identify with Harry. And Harry WANTS Sirius in his life. I empathize w/ Harry's feelings. Snape *is* deeply unpleasant. I will confess that, after going on a Rickman!Snape binge and returning to canon, I can actually do a "Whoa! I forgot how unpleasant he is!" I don't want him to REFORM so much as to discover that there is some good in the mix. He's a nasty bit of work, he surely did some awful things in the past, he's an often-effective but nasty teacher, but I think there is something good in there--and THAT'S what I find intriguing. If we discover (as I suspect you hope, Kneasy) that Snape hass NEVER been about anything but what's in it for himself, then I think I *will* be disappointed. Remember, I'm not saying he should be reformed in the end so much as I'm saying I want to discover why DD trusts him so, and that I'm hoping the answer includes some small but important measure of goodness. So I guess I'm one of the weird ones. I truly like Sirius and truly like Snape *and* truly like Harry...all in very different ways. But lest you all think I like *everybody*, I really don't like Luna at all! [ducks] Kneasy: > When the Anti-Snape Alliance flail away, castigating him for the > way he treats Harry and Neville, nurses his grudges against James > and Sirius, they're really missing the point. We know all that. > It's not news - it's canon. For Snape-aholics the nub of the > question is - why? What is the back-story, what are Snape's > motivations? > > When the ASA over-simplify (IMO) with "he hates Harry, James, > Sirius and abuses kids - away with him," they're possibly ignoring > something that could be central to the plot. He's probably the most > three-dimensional character in the books, certainly IMO the best > written, he's believable in a way that say, DD isn't. This is why > he provokes so much reaction. The counter-reaction generally > doesn't claim Snape to be nice but responds in terms of comparing > him with memories of RL teachers and trying to explain why Snape > could be behaving in this way. SSSusan: And I can truly like the character of Snape and STILL join in with what you'd call ASA-bashing sometimes. I don't think it's fair to say I'm missing the point (and perhaps you're not). But in defense of how I have argued before, I'd say that "trying to explain why Snape could be behaving in this way" DOESN'T mean I'm necessarily doing anything different than what the Snape-aholics are doing in asking "Why? What is the back-story, what are Snape's motivations?" In my mind, it's ALL an attempt to figure that out; it's just that I might do more complaining about Severus along the way. I'm not an "away with him" person, though, so perhaps again I'm not fitting neatly into these two camps.... Kneasy: > Is he acting or at least exaggerating, in his attitude towards > Harry? Quite possible. Why does DD trust him so completely? Why has > no-one complained about his teaching methods? Why did he leave > Voldy and the DEs yet still be able to remain on good terms with > Malfoy *and* perform some critical and dangerous yet still > specified anti-Voldy missions? We don't know, and it's highly > likely that when we do get the answers it still won't make Snape a > pleasant person, but it might make him understandable. > Snape has been a central figure in nearly book, yet how much do we > really know about him? Not much - all we see is the surface; > underneath that it should get a lot more interesting. Now you may > not agree.... > That, I think, is what attracts the Snape-aholics. We want to know > more. SSSusan: Exactly! I *do* agree with this. This is all what I'm saying, I think. By your definitions & examples, I fit into the Snape-aholic camp because I want to know more...desperately! I sit up straighter when I hit a chapter w/ Severus in it. But yet I engage in what you would possibly call ASA behavior, too, at times. I don't think it has to be an either/or. It would only be an either/or if the Snape- aholics were Snape-apologists. SIRIUSLY SNAPEY Susan From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Jul 9 16:45:13 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 16:45:13 -0000 Subject: The Mirror and the Heart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105260 Iris: > Since the first time I read the series, I had this feeling: maybe > the Mirror of Erised is a two-way mirror, and it will play a part in > the outcome. > I always thought that the sentence written `back to front' on the > frame wasn't just a pleasant detail, a game between JKR and her > readers. I suppose it's written `back to front' because it's > actually the reverse of an inscription you can read `normally' when > you stand on the other side of the mirror. The Mirror of Erised > could be just like the Stone Arch in the Death Chamber: a gate > between two worlds, two dimensions or two realities. JKR herself > suggests that the Mirror is maybe just a gate, when she writes in > PS/SS (chapter 12): "The Potters smiled and waved at Harry and he > stared hungrily back at them, his hand pressed flat against the > glass as though he was hoping to fall right through it and reach > them." > And at the end of the book, the Philosopher's Stone passes through > the mirror, from Harry's reflection to Harry himself. Jen: Hi Iris! I agree with you that the Mirror works on two levels, although my belief is the deeper level is symbolic rather than literal. If the Eyes are a window to the Soul, then certainly as your title says, this particular Mirror is a window to the Heart. That symbolism alone would be enough for me, but then we have the inscription as well. You mentioned being able to read the inscription 'normally' on the other side (in another reality or dimension). I was thinking more that the Inscription is a mirror-image of itself, symbolizing Harry & Voldemort. Or psychologically speaking, you can't really know yourself until you take a good look in the mirror (see all aspects of yourself). The other reason I don't think the Mirror is literally an Archway, like the Veil, is because of what David mentions in post #105252-- Dumbledore can fiddle with it, 'set' it somehow. Him fiddling around with an Archway to another world seems almost equivalent to Voldemort fiddling with mortality, or someone messing with time--you open yourself up to dangerous consequences. Iris: > The Mirror, in PS/SS, represents the seventh ordeal Harry has to > pass through to find the Stone. If you acknowledge (as I do) that > the seven ordeals are a summary and a metaphor of the whole series > (1st ordeal= 1st book, etc ), well, you can suppose we'll see the > Mirror again (the Mirror, or something similar) in the seventh book. Jen: I've always liked this theory of yours and think the Seventh Ordeal will involve the Veil. The Mirror symbolizes this when placed as the last task for Harry to 'overcome' in his search to defeat Voldemort. Iris: > And, maybe, Sirius' small mirror will play a part in the outcome. > Simply because mirrors, small or huge, play an important part in > initiatory processes. For example, they are used in the Masonic > loges; the initiate is locked in what they call a `meditation room', > where he/she finds a curtain and the following sentence: `If you > have a genuine wish, if you possess courage and intelligence, draw > this curtain.' Jen: My favorite line in HP is when Harry is staying at the Leaky Cauldron, with the talkative mirror: "I'm *not* going to be murdered." "That's the spirit, dear." Lol. A humourous way to remind us Harry is being initiated to take a journey, but humor will play a role in along the way. Iris: > Harry doesn't want to know what is wrapped in the parcel his > godfather has given him, because he worries for Sirius, and doesn't > want to endanger him. It's because he loves his godfather, but also > because of what happened before Christmas, because of the nightmare > he had in which he `was' a snake and `attacked' Arthur Weasley. At > that moment, Harry is afraid of himself. He doesn't know what is > happening, and he probably prefers not to know, because he could > discover terrible things, things he is not ready to face yet. He > doesn't know whether that horrible nightmare didn't reveal what he > is actually. He is confronted with a terrible possibility: he could > turn out to be a monster himself, just like the Basilisk he killed > three years before, just like Voldemort. Jen: Very nice thoughts here Iris. And I think once again JKR is giving us the 'mirror-image' symbolism of Harry & Voldemort. But mirror images are clearly not the same, instead they are a reverse projection, and they are still 'in essence divided.' Idea by David in post #105252: > Another thought about Harry's scar. It is easy to think of it as a > disfiguring thing, the visible sign of a lurking inner Voldemort, > but that's not true. Harry got the scar, not because Voldemort > cursed him, but because Harry, with Lily's protection, repelled that > curse. So the scar is in some way connected to Harry's strength, > and if he focuses on it, despite it being a source of pain and a > conduit (seemingly) for evil, he will understand his power. Jen: The source of Harry's power is the source of Voldemort's defeat, "the critical and central question" JKR talked about on World Book Day. Linked together by the scar, they are mirror images once again. In psychological terms, Harry has to accept his shadow side and integrate all the aspects of himself, including his anger and hatred, to defeat Voldemort. Tom Riddle could never do that. He shut off his feelings, his consciene, his intuition, and turned into a monster. All those parts he rejected built up into his irrational fear of death. I like the idea that Harry's scar is his source of power, and not the pain he's grown accustomed to so far. From mnaperrone at aol.com Fri Jul 9 17:22:10 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 17:22:10 -0000 Subject: JKR's flipflop on Snape [Was: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes/] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105261 > "K": > > > > Royal Albert Hall Appearance > > > June 26 2003 > > > Q&A with Stephen Fry > > > > > > SF: Where as most of the character, like Snape for example, are very > > > hard to > > > love but there's a sort of ambiguity [...]in the first book we > > thought he was the evil one and a > > > aprt form Voldemort the most evil and in the second we thought that > > > and slowly we just get this idea that maybe he's not so bad after all > > > > > > JKR: Yeees. You shouldn't think he's too nice, let me just say that. > > > > > > SF: Right I shall bear that in mind. Worth watching Serverus Snape > > > > > > JKR: He's worth keeping and eye on, definitely Ally: This quote is very interesting to me, because it's not the first time JKR has used it, and the context is totally different. Prior to Book 4 coming out, she was asked a question about Snape and responded as such: JKR: Snape is a very sadistic teacher, uh, loosely based on a teacher I myself had, I have to say. Uhm, I think children are very aware, and we're kidding ourselves if we don't think that they are, that teachers do sometimes abuse their power, and this particular teacher does abuse his power, he's not a particularly pleasant person at all. However, everyone should keep their eye on Snape, I'll just say that, because there's more to him than meets the eye, and you will find out part of what I'm talking about if you read Book 4. The same warning - keep an eye on him - but in context, it seems quite positive here. All we knew about Snape was what a nasty fellow he can be, so the "keep an eye on him" bit seemed to be JKR hinting at finding out a GOOD thing about Snape - that he was a spy working for the Order. And this is only "part" of what she was saying when she said there was more to him than meets the eye. Now we're hearing that we shouldn't think him too nice and to keep an eye on him. I wonder if JKR isn't perhaps playing a bit fast and loose here to keep us on our toes. I still think its quite possible that Snape will do something awful because he can't control certain impulses (DD's words "Some scars run too deep for healing" seem almost prophetic), but I also wonder if JKR won't ultimately paint Snape as a good man but not a nice man. I would definitely think she was going to give him a mustache to twirl and a train track to tie Harry to, though, if it weren't for her using the same warning in apparently two totally inconsistent contexts. I think it's quite possible that Snape did something that may have indirectly or directly contributed to the Potters' demise. The way he flinches when Harry talks about hearing his mother scream after the dementor close call is quite suspicious - characters often flinch in the HP universe when something hits too close to home. Maybe he was there that night and that will be the "not to nice" thing we learn about him, as someone else suggested. From eleanor at dreamvine.org.uk Fri Jul 9 13:19:28 2004 From: eleanor at dreamvine.org.uk (iamvine) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 13:19:28 -0000 Subject: "His eyes are green..."Re: Toad Surveillance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105262 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pcaehill2" wrote: > > > imamommy wrote: > > [snip] > > One "small thing" I thought about form CoS today was the singing > > Valentine. The "His eyes are green as a fresh-pickled toad" bit. > We still don't know who sent that message. We are left to believe > it is Ginny, but we are never told so. [snip] > > Pam agrees: > I was re-reading that valentine message recently, and it hit me as > well that it just doesn't sound like Ginny's writing (unless > the "dwarf cupids" wrote them themselves?)--BUT, it does sound like > something Luna might write!!! Eleanor speculates: I was wondering whether Tom Riddle could have written the Valentine. I can picture Ginny writing in her diary, "Dear Tom, I want to send Harry a Valentine but I don't know what to say!" and him replying. We know he's good at wordplay (that infamous anagram) and then the rhyme uses the term "Dark Lord", which only Death Eaters normally use. I noticed that when Malfoy accused Ginny of sending the Valentine, she didn't deny it. But then she did have other things on her mind. It would have to have been written a long time in advance, though, before she threw the diary away. Eleanor From eleanor at dreamvine.org.uk Fri Jul 9 13:23:55 2004 From: eleanor at dreamvine.org.uk (iamvine) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 13:23:55 -0000 Subject: Harry's Firebolt In-Reply-To: <40EE789A.30406@colinogilvie.co.uk> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105263 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Colin O wrote: > Steve wrote: > > >The Firebolt was order 'in Harry's name' and the money was to be taken > >from Sirius's vault; not the account of 'Sirius Black', but from Vault > >#713 (did I get the number right?). No name, just a vault number. > > > > Then Colin said: > #713 is where the "Philosopher's Stone" is in PS, when Hagrid and Harry > go to Gringott's - I doubt that would be Sirius' vault. > > (I can't give a page reference, other than its in Chapter 5) Eleanor says: Sirius's vault is #711, according to his letter to Harry at the end. I believe this was edited out of the US edition. Next door to the Philosopher's Stone because he's a high security prisoner? (But I don't want to start a speculation thread, since I know there's another one somewhere.) Eleanor From eleanor at dreamvine.org.uk Fri Jul 9 13:27:47 2004 From: eleanor at dreamvine.org.uk (iamvine) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 13:27:47 -0000 Subject: Buckbeak In-Reply-To: <001301c465a1$94da6fe0$67c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105264 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cathy Drolet" wrote: > What in the world is going to happen to Buckbeak? Just had this thought last night. Sirius is gone. We don't know what is going to become of the Black residence. All I can say is if Buckbeak is taken away and executed, I hope he eats Kreacher before he goes. Eleanor says: I don't even understand what he was doing in 12 Grimmauld Place in OotP. Surely Hippogriffs should not be kept indoors. Why not just give him back to Hagrid? Would anyone from the Ministry really be able to pick him out from the rest of the Hogwarts herd? Eleanor From fienxjox at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 14:30:59 2004 From: fienxjox at yahoo.com (fienxjox) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 14:30:59 -0000 Subject: Wands - again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105265 Del wrote: > Well, maybe it's the same with wizards and wands. Some wizards are > so good that they can manage almost anything with any wand. Others > can perform any usual magic with any wand, but wouldn't try special > spells with a wand that's not theirs. And still others (like > Neville maybe) can't do anything good with any other wand but > theirs, unless they really practice hard. Fx now: An excelent analogy Del, and I would suggest the possibility of another that JKR gave us. In PS/SS we are introduced to Wizard's Chess and are told that it is eaiser with an older set that you have used for a long time, not only because you are used to it (and possibly have more experience) but also because it is used to YOU (I think it was Seamus' set H was using in the begining and loosing with). This might also work with wands in that they "choose the wizard." They might (WW now ;) have some sense of how skilled a wizard you are and act accordingly. Just an thought (just maybe worth .02 ____(insert monatary type)) Fx From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 15:17:35 2004 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 15:17:35 -0000 Subject: Snape as the HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105266 meglet2: > Any takers for Snape as the HBP? I know this is a wild guess and > that as head of Slytherin he should presumably be pure blood, but > there are maybe inconsistencies in the Slytherin = pure blood thing. Katie: I was just thinking about this. Consider: 1. Sirius says the pureblood families are all related. 2. But Snape is not mentioned as being on the tapestry. (Wouldn't Harry have noticed if he was?) 3. We see a snippet of Snape's family background. I bet this comes up again. 4. There's something VERY important about Snape that JKR hasn't told us. Therefore: Snape is the HBP! Patiently waiting for someone to shoot this down, Katie From Madydea at aol.com Fri Jul 9 15:30:27 2004 From: Madydea at aol.com (Madydea at aol.com) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:30:27 EDT Subject: Snape's mission Message-ID: <1a5.257c2253.2e201413@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105267 Kneasley says Message-ID: <20040709160706.26549.qmail@web25210.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105268 This is my first post to the board. Im excited to be here, but utterly confused...so I do hope Im posting right and please be gentle on me if I'm not. (...as she glances at the HBF beside her keyboard...) One of my biggest speculations is what happened the night Lily and James are murdered. Im sure that the point has been discussed-- but heres my two pence. (Well all know soon enough when Book Six comes out for Im sure the first chapter will include this night). As of OotP-- Sirius and Dumbledore knew that Srius was the Potters SecretKeeper *until* Sirius passed on the task to Pettigrew (Im assuming going through DD to do so). My thought is Dumbledore knew that moment the Potters would be the chosen family instead of the Longbottoms. He mustve known on some level Pettigrew was a bit of a git and a bit shifty. He does seem to read into a persons soul really well. (CoS when asking Tom Riddle if there was anything he wished to tell him) Im assuming the Potters and Longbottoms were informed of the Prophecy in its entirety and the Longbottoms were hence tortured instead of killed in order for the DE to find out the rest of the Prophecy. Knowing that Pettigrew would rat on the Potters or perhaps wanting to keep a watch on the home in suspicion of Sirius switching SecretKeepers last minute...was Dumbledore there the night James and Lily died? Was DD actually inside the home? In the Philosophers Stone (Bloomsbury, 148) when DD gives Harry his fathers invisibility cloak he states. Your father left this in my possession before he died. Did James know his fate and make arrangements? Did James give the cloak to Dumbledore with the intent to later be given to Harry or was the cloak given to DD for protection and cover on that night? Was Dumbledore in the house, but should not have been and therefore James hid him? I cannot understand why Dumbledore would not get involved and fight for the Potters if he was there....but maybe he was there in a different form. Perhaps the Headmaster has his own portrait he can flip in and out of like the other HMs of Hogwarts? We still arent sure of who blew the house up and why? Was this a reaction that happened when Voldemorts powers were relinquished or was someone covering up their steps? Speaking of re tracing steps.... why didnt dumbledore use the time turner on the night Harry's parents were murdered? Why is it okay to save Sirius after he died, but not turn time and save Harry's parents? As for Harrys glasses. I believe Harrys eyesight was altered when Voldemort attacked him that night. I think when LVs spell hit Harry it not only affected Harrys mind, but also his vision. Perhaps the bright green light Harry remembers altered his sight or (the theory unproved...)the charm Lily placed onto Harry right before she died affected his sight? The scar is right above his eyes which makes me feel like Voldemort aimed his wand at Harrys head. At any rate, I love that Rowling takes a tool like glasses that has been stereotyped in film and literature as the object of choice for categorizing a geek and transforms it into the Hero who has imperfections. A hero with a weakness we all see....really nice touch. As for James being a bully because of what we saw in the Pensieve....Well, it is Snapes memory of the event. In Snapes mind James was a prat, but what about Malfoys memories? Im sure Ron and Harry wouldnt be too far off from how Sirius and James appear. I think some students at Hogwarts might view Ron and Harry a bit differently than how those in Gryffindor see them as. Brenda wrote: > What if there was another great war (much like Voldemort vs. > Dumbledore) about a thousand years ago, between Slytherin and > Gryffindor. What about Dumbledore and Grindelwald? I really want to know who this wizard was and what led up to Dumbledore defeating him. I'll stop even thought there are a thousand more ideas and theories running around in my head. I do hope this is posted correct. Rebekia ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Fri Jul 9 16:51:41 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 9 Jul 2004 16:51:41 -0000 Subject: HBP (was partly Re: HBP = Draco) Message-ID: <20040709165141.17117.qmail@webmail7.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105269 >> From: "Cathy Drolet" >> Subject: HBP = Draco >> I don't believe this for a second but the thought struck me as I was >> reading "The Noble and Most Ancient House of Black" chapter of OotP. >> >> Draco is 'half blood' - half Black blood through his mother. The >> Black family believes that to be a Black made you practically royal.>> ..Prince. Amey: If he is half blood on his mother's side, that means his mother is either muggle born or has some Muggle ancestors. This clashes with the fact that Blacks were very obsessed with their pure-bloodedness. ("my parents, with their pure-blood mania"..."'No, no, but believe me, they thought Voldemort had the right idea, they were all for the purification of the wizarding race, getting rid of Muggle-borns and having pure-bloods in charge."). So Malfoy is pure blood through and through (though I would have liked him to wake up one day to hear that he is not a pure blood). One more thought though, what if the HBP being a working title for CoS is a red herring? (*smirks at the thought of possibilities*). It will open up a whole new line of thought. What JKR says about the first chapter of book six is that she had thought of it from first book, so there is no direct point to CoS there also. What if we are led on entirely different path here? (Wouldn't put it past JKR) Though if she has to run away for Mark Evans, I am sure she will have to make her house unplottable, and find some good secret keeper for her. So, discounting that part, let's see what we know about HBP: 1. It was a title for part 2 2. Certain parts of book6 were originally intended for book2, but she realised in *first draft* that the information was for book6. 3. CoS holds some important clues for the ultimate end of series. 4. It's opening chapter was to be used for SS/PS, PoA and OotP. Considering points 1, 2 and 3, they seem to mean that whoever is HBP is, must have played some part (and I think some major part) in CoS. There are four characters: 1. Harry 2. TR 3. Hagrid 4. Slytherin Now Harry is not HBP, as told by her (and there is no chance of misreading it, as there are no two parts of Harry ilke LV and TR). So that leaves us with 3. Now, Consider Hagrid, his information however different or important would not much change the outcome of the series. I mean he is important as one of Harry's supports, but still he plays that part, not any central part. Also we don't know he is half-human till 4th part, so I doubt *his-story* would have changed the title that much. Now comes TR. Yes, here is a tricky one. Perhaps, the bit of Dobby saying that He-who-must-not-be-named could be freely named early would be one of the clues. So he could well be HBP (and he fits the bill, coming from a witch and a muggle). How he found his lineage, how he found the CoS, and all the secrets in it (at least how to summon Basilisk and the fact that it was a basilisk there, I mean he could not go there there, see it and recognise it, he would be dead before he knew it, and with him Slyhterin's last heir and dream) is the story missing, but then where is the part where it should be told? When he takes Harry in his diary is not the time, standing in CoS, yes it would gain him time to return to full, but then isn't that typically villaneous (I mean telling your lifestory to hero, giving him chance to kill you). Also, he is more inetrested in knowing Harry's story than telling his own. Also, the diary leaves a lot to be cleared. I mean, how Malfoy got it? When? I mean LV could hardly see that he would be dying and given it to Malfoy. Also, why did he needed his Heir to come to Hogwarts and complete the *Slytherin's great work*? Wasn't he the greatest wizard in the century? Couldn't he complete the work himself? He was going to be immortal, so can't he continue it? Once he defeats Dumbledore, isn't the Hogwarts open to him to do as he wants? Last but not the least, we have Slytherin himself. He *started all this pure-blood stuff* (Ron - CoS), he fought with other founders (especially Gryffindor) and left the school after building the CoS. Now, we know all this history quite early in the story(yes, near to half point, but before we know anything about TR). So the book is really about *Heir of Slytherin* more than Tom. I think, the bit of him fighting with Gryffindor, leaving the school (it would not be just one day quarrel and he is gone), this part leaves a long story to be told. (Just imagine Hermione reading it in Hogwarts: A history, and the trio taking the story apart for all the clues they could get). And given his pure blood mania and looking at his last descendent, he might be a halfblood himself, himself a descendent of some great wizard of their time. So he is a good candidate. Also, I would like to know very much why it is called Chamber of *Secrets* when we know there is the *horror* (not horrors - look what Prof. Binns says) inside it. So all in all, I think there are two possibilities- TR and Slytherin. That leaves me with one more question, why are people considering that HBP has to be a good person? I mean,people are considering that it might be TR, but many think TR as the good side of LV, who gave up his TR side etc. etc. But, what I think that need not be the case. LV and TR are by this time one and the same, just a few spells difference. Also, one more this about titles, 1. SS/PS - a good thing (in good hands of course) 2. CoS - a bad room, evil 3. PoA - evil person, who comes out good 4. GoF - a magical object, presumably good 5. OoTP - a group of good people 6. HBP - to maintain the symmetry of good and bad, i believe it should be bad (or is it good considering that PoA if after all good, man, I am confused) Amey, who started the post perfectly, and who now is confused beyond his wildest imagination... and will keep the discussion about first chapter for later posts [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gertgal at aol.com Fri Jul 9 15:20:23 2004 From: gertgal at aol.com (Ginger) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 15:20:23 -0000 Subject: Kreacher (was Re: Buckbeak) In-Reply-To: <001301c465a1$94da6fe0$67c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105270 >Cathy: >[Sirius] didn't decapitate Kreacher and hang his head on the wall with the >other former house elves. As above, I would have fed him to Beaky ages >ago the evil, foul, snotty little toerag! Gielreta: At the end of OOtP, Dumbledore explains that he "persuaded" Kreacher to tell him where and why Sirius had gone. After such persuasion, what sort of condition will Kreacher be in? Will we have to mount his head after all? What sort of persuasion might Dumbledore have used? I was thinking something again to Cruciatus, but that would reveal a Dumbledore that perhaps we have only seen when he stormed CrouchMoody's office at the end of GoF. What does this say about Dumbledore? Gielreta From jmay_71 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 16:08:05 2004 From: jmay_71 at yahoo.com (jmay_71) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 16:08:05 -0000 Subject: Godric Gryffindor as HBP (Was: Prince of Walpurgis) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105271 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Pandrea wrote: > > I don't know, maybe it is Riddle. At present, GG seems most likely > > to me but I won't mind at all if it turns out I'm totally wrong. > > > Carol: > One more bit of supporting evidence for Godric Gryffindor (who, like > Tom Riddle, is first introduced in CoS) as HBP: that ruby-encrusted > sword. Doesn't it seem like an odd weapon for a wizard to use or own, > but perfectly appropriate for the half-blood son of a Muggle king who > married a sorceress (witch)? Something along the lines of King > Arthur's liason with Morgause, only a real marriage and not to his > half-sister. This would be before the estrangement between Muggles and > Wizards became significant (pre-witch burnings, for one thing), and > that estrangement probably occurred later in Celtic areas like Wales > (GG is Welsh, right?) where Druids might still have had some influence > in GG's time, than in Saxon-dominated areas, at least in JKR's version > of history. I also like the idea that the HBP is Godric Gryffindor. I do think that the word prince is literal and not figurative. I had forgotten about the sword, which is a really interesting clue. You also mention "Celtic areas" and Alfonso Cuaron, director of POA mentions in one interview that JKR told him Hogwarts was built on an ancient Celtic site, with some type of graveyard that will play a role in an upcoming books. Finally, the symbol for Gryffindor House is a lion which has been used repeatedly through time as a royal symbol. A few things to ponder: Maybe Hogwarts Castle was donated by HBP to be used for the school. Maybe ancient Gryffindor royals are buried in the graveyard mentioned above. Maybe the rift between Gryffindor and Slytherin was due in part to Slytherin's jealousy of Gryffindor and played a role in his hatred of muggles and muggle born wizards. I don't like the idea that Harry is decended from Gryffindor because I think that does go against JKR's message that it doesn't matter where you came from, its your actions that count. BUT, she has shown a pattern of inheritance. Sometimes with physical traits (Harry - looks ,Voldemort - parseltounge), sometimes with property (The Black house is going to be inherited by someone, we just don't know who yet). If Harry is Gryffindor's heir, maybe it will play a role in a way other than just fighting the old Gryffindor vs. Slytherin battle. Well, to sum up, my guess right now is Gryffindor is the HBP. Jen, who is sorry if she rambled on too much. From mnaperrone at aol.com Fri Jul 9 17:39:11 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 17:39:11 -0000 Subject: HBP (was partly Re: HBP = Draco) In-Reply-To: <20040709165141.17117.qmail@webmail7.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105272 > Amey: > So, discounting that part, let's see what we know about HBP: > 1. It was a title for part 2 > 2. Certain parts of book6 were originally intended for book2, but she realised in *first draft* that the information was for book6. > 3. CoS holds some important clues for the ultimate end of series. > 4. It's opening chapter was to be used for SS/PS, PoA and OotP. > > Considering points 1, 2 and 3, they seem to mean that whoever is HBP is, must have played some part (and I think some major part) in CoS. There are four characters: > 1. Harry > 2. TR > 3. Hagrid > 4. Slytherin > > So all in all, I think there are two possibilities- TR and Slytherin. That leaves me with one more question, why are people considering that HBP has to be a good person? I mean,people are considering that it might be TR, but many think TR as the good side of LV, who gave up his TR side etc. etc. But, what I think that need not be the case. LV and TR are by this time one and the same, just a few spells difference. > Amey, who started the post perfectly, and who now is confused beyond his wildest imagination... and will keep the discussion about first chapter for later posts Ally: Thanks, Amey, for the excellent, very salient discussion. I think you hit the nail on the head. As much as I love random speculation, the HBP theories are really going far afield. The HBP has to be someone who was/would have been important to Book 2 and many of the wildly speculative ideas don't seem to take that into consideration. My vote is still Tom Riddle, since his story was already begun in such detail in COS, it makes sense that JKR would have clipped the really important details - why and how he actually made his transformation - and saved it for a separate book. [I don't consider him a "good" side of Voldie, just someone who gave himself over to the total evil that is Voldie]. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 9 18:01:00 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 18:01:00 -0000 Subject: Snape going back? (was: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105273 [SSS: I pulled one statement out & put it at the top to argue a point, Salit; hope you don't mind.] Salit wrote: > Witness how the relationship between Harry and Snape is getting > worse through each book. SSSusan: *Is* it, though?? Could you say more about this? I know that Occlumency ended on ...ahem...a rather bad note, with Snape seething in anger. At first, Harry liked the "new Snape" in class [he ignored Harry], but then Snape "whoops" Harry's potion vial, and so Harry was seething in anger, too. I concede all of that. But I suspect that, in spite of his stubborness and his protestations at the end of OoP, Harry *will* begin to really HEAR DD's words about Snape in book 6 (or book 7). Don't get me wrong, I don't think there's any chance in the world that they'll ever be buddies, but I think at some point a partial, grudging respect will appear from Harry for Snape. If Harry doesn't achieve an OWL with sufficiently high marks to be taken into Snape's 6th year Potions class, it just might provide just the break from Snape that Harry needs to get BEYOND Snape's treatment of him in class just a bit. If that happens, I could see things "easing up" a bit between them and maybe, just maybe, Harry someday acknowledging a wee bit of what Snape has done for him and DD and the Order. I can't say I'm positive of all this, of course, but we do know that much more is coming from JKR on Severus, and I'm not convinced that their relationship is getting *worse*. Want to try to convine me otherwise? :-) Salit: > My personal hunch (for what it is worth) that Snape will be forced > to make a choice in the coming books. After the almost inevitable > death of Dumbledore - which side will he be on. Snape's friends > (such as there are), loyalties, etc. are all in Voldemort's camp. > The central figure (post Dumbledore) in the fight against Voldemort > is Harry, whom he utterly detests. ... > Add the history (his hatered of Harry's father, distaste of his > mother's muggle origin combined with what I suspect was a crush on > her, etc.) and I think it is highly likely that Snape will end up > going back to the dark side. SSSusan: I think you're right that it's likely DD will die before series end, and so perhaps you may be right that the time may come when Snape is forced to make a choice (again). Would it be to go back to the dark side? ARE his loyalties & friends in Voldy's camp? Possibly, and it could happen, of course. But I actually think his "friendship" and "loyalty" to Lucius are a put-on, and I think that he is closer to certain members of the Hogwarts staff [McGonagall, for instance] than many people seem to believe. *I* don't think Snape will go back. But that's part of the fun of it all--who knows? Siriusly Snapey Susan From gertgal at aol.com Fri Jul 9 17:55:11 2004 From: gertgal at aol.com (Gielreta) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 17:55:11 -0000 Subject: The Night James & Lily Died In-Reply-To: <20040709160706.26549.qmail@web25210.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105274 >Rebekia: >Why is it okay to save > Sirius after he died, but not turn time and save > Harry's parents? I'm not positive of this, but I believe the difference is that Sirius, in any time plane, never actually died (or had his soul removed). They had a respite while the Dementors were fetched and gave Harry and Hermione enough wiggle room to save Sirius before the kiss. Also, it actually *wasn't* ok for Harry and Hermione to save Sirius. Hermione's time turner was only for school use. i don't think it is generally allowed to go back in time and stop deaths. Finally, it is possible that Dumbledore somehow knows that it was better for the Potters to die, as in they would otherwise have suffered some other, worse fate. "There are things worse than death." Gielreta From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 9 18:12:27 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 18:12:27 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Percy... also HBP (was: Re: Dumbledore and Sirius; Percy Weasly; Defending Percy; Slytherin as HBP) In-Reply-To: <20040709050557.1099.qmail@webmail7.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105275 Amey: > And as for penseive, if it shows "a memory of that person's version > of what happened.", it's pretty subjective, and the scene might > even be different. SSSusan: May I ask whom you're quoting here? Could you clarify for me, please? I don't recall ANY word from JKR on the nature of the Pensieve. And personally, I'm with Ces in the belief that the Pensieve is an objective thing; otherwise, could Harry have "moved around in" Snape's memory so much and seen & heard things [such as the chatter amongst the Marauders] that Snape didn't? Siriusly Snapey Susan From anita_hillin at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 18:25:05 2004 From: anita_hillin at yahoo.com (AnitaKH) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:25:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR's flipflop on Snape [Was: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes/] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040709182505.21593.qmail@web42101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105276 "K": Royal Albert Hall Appearance June 26 2003 Q&A with Stephen Fry SF: Whereas most of the characters, like Snape for example, are very hard to love but there's a sort of ambiguity [...]in the first book we thought he was the evil one and apart from Voldemort the most evil and in the second we thought that and slowly we just get this idea that maybe he's not so bad after all JKR: Yeees. You shouldn't think he's too nice, let me just say that...He's worth keeping and eye on, definitely Ally: This quote is very interesting to me, because it's not the first time JKR has used it, and the context is totally different. [snippage of good examples to reinforce the statement] akh: It appears to me that the "swing" is on the part of the fans, rather than Jo Rowling. After PS/SS, fans said, "We thought he was bad, but he's good!" followed by POA in which, "We thought he was OK, but he's bad!" Then he redeemed himself again at the end of GOF, so "he's good!" He was all over the map in OOTP (Occlumency: he's bad! Fake Veritaserum: he's good!) We on HPFGU, of course, are much more nuanced in our opinions... For those who think "Snape's doing the 'bad guy' thing as a ruse; he's really just a young Dumbledore" she counters with a warning to keep an eye on him. For those who think Snape is ESE, she needs to remind them that they must keep an eye on him, lest they miss his noble deeds. As you may guess, I'm in the "Snape is a complex, possibly tortured character who has both cruelty and nobility in his nature" camp. I'm definitely going to keep an eye on him! akh, who has no plans either to bash or apologize for Sevvy... --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From amycrn4230 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 18:39:37 2004 From: amycrn4230 at yahoo.com (amycrn4230) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 18:39:37 -0000 Subject: Half Baked theory on the HBP. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105277 Well here goes... I was thinking about the post reguarding the issue of the hyphen (or lack of) in the title of book 6. If in fact, it has nothing to do with being a half wizard/half muggle, I throw this out for your disputing pleasure...What if the HBP is Grawp? Here me out... I mean he IS Hagrid's HALF brother, and his dad may have been the Gurg, making him a "prince" in a way, but he was too small, and obviously wasn't going to grow into a future Gurg. I think Grawp has to be dealt with in some way in book 6 because we have this giant running around the forbidden forest looking for "Hagger" & he knows Hermie & Harry...so, what if he somehow "learns" to help out and is useful in some unknown ( except to JKR for now)way??? Now to already start disputing myself, I don't know how that was ever illuded to in CoS, except through Hagrid's character. There ya go...have at it. Amy From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 9 18:42:43 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 18:42:43 -0000 Subject: The Mirror and the Heart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105278 "davewitley" wrote: > > Rather than stepping through the mirror to read the inscription > > from the other side, another way of looking at it would be that > > you turn your back on the mirror to use it as then the > > inscription is then the 'right way round', even though you cannot > > actually see it. Kneasy: > It's about time the Mirror turned up in the posts again; a sadly > neglected and IMO potentially important artifact. > > This "if you're on the other side of the mirror then the writing is > the right way round" is a possible clue that I've mentioned before. > In the WW mirrors are often much more than looking glasses - they > are also methods of communication, either by the mirror itself > (Harry has met a couple of these) or by someone not physically > present (Sirius's mirror). Erised could fall into the latter > category. > > Consider: the Stone being transferred to Harry's pocket wasn't > Harry's desire, but it could well have been Dumbledore's. And I've > always felt that DD skimmed over his explication of how the Mirror > worked. > I'll quote part of a previous post: > "I'm glad you asked me that. It was one of my more brilliant ideas, > and between you and me, that's saying something. You see, only one > who wanted to *find* the Stone - find it, but not use it - would > be able to get it, otherwise they'd just see themselves making > gold or drinking Elixir of Life. > But no more questions." > > Pause a moment, wasn't that what Quirrell was up to? Finding the > Stone? He had no intention of using it - "I see the Stone...I'm > presenting it to my master...but where is it?" > > The most significant part of DD's speil was the last four words:- > "But no more questions."] - 95633. SSSusan: I remember this post!! And I also remember that I disagreed w/ you then...and still do. We're seeing the word "use" in different lights. Here's a snippet of a response to you the first go-round: ********************************** KAT/rxk replied in #95664: > But Quirrel DID want the stone to use it to benefit himself-by > giving it to LV, he expected to be greatly rewarded; perhaps > through the riches it might create or even some of the elixer. > Hence, his motives would not be "pure", whereas Harry's were to > keep the Stone safe. Siriusly Snapey Susan: I think Kat is exactly right. Harry's & Quirrell's intentions were quite different. ******************************** Kneasy: > Since the Mirror belongs to DD, it's possible that it shows you what > DD wants you to see. It's his desires, what he wants to happen > that are reflected in the Mirror. Which would mean that he also > wanted Harry to see his family and for Ron to see himself as a > success, not just the youngest brother trailing behind his elders. > And if DD is on the other side of it, it would be easy for him to > watch Harry when he sneaked out at night to sit in front of it. > > It could be a very nice twist - > "I show not your face but your hearts desire". > Yeah, but whose face and whose desire? > The one in front of the Mirror or the one on the other side of it? SSSusan: This is a fascinating take on it, and I'm really enjoying the thoughts you, Dave & Iris so far have put out about the Mirror. I'm not sure I can quite buy going so far as to say the viewer sees DD's desires & wants, though. WHY would DD want Harry to see his family? I think he wanted Harry to find the mirror, yes, and to familiarize himself with what it does and how it works so that he would recognize it when he saw it again. But I don't think DD "programmed it" or has power over it in such a way as to establish what it shows each viewer. I mean, what if DD "chose wrong" and the viewer said, "That mirror's a load of sh*t; THAT'S not my deepest desire"?? Siriusly Snapey Susan From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 18:49:46 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 18:49:46 -0000 Subject: Snape's mission In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105279 > Neri: > I've recently managed to convince myself that after the first war > Snape gave the Ministry a false testimony that acquitted Malfoy (and > most probably also Nott, Crabbe, Goyle, Avery and Macnair) of being > DEs. This was probably done by DD's directions in order to regain > their trust in Snape. Canon support for this is not only > that "lapdog" accusation by Sirius. In the end of GoF, when Harry > named Malfoy as a DE in front of Fudge, "Snape made a sudden > movement, but as Harry looked at him, Snape's eyes flew back to > Fudge". Several paragraphs later in this scene Snape makes the > surprising gesture of showing his Dark Mark to Fudge (and with Molly, > Bill and McGonagall present). Does Snape feel just a tiny bit guilty > about Fudge refusing to believe Harry, because he is the one who > originally convinced Fudge that Malfoy is innocent? Kneasy: Was Fudge Minister or senior in the Ministry at the time of the trials? I don't think he was. Neri again: He wasn't. According to Sirius (GoF, Ch. 27) Crouch Jr. died in Azkaban "about a year" after his trial (he didn't really died there, of course). After that there was a big drop in the popularity of Crouch Sr., and Fudge got the MoM job. Assuming Crouch's trial was about half a year after LV's fall, it seems that Fudge became Minster about 2 years after the end of the war. So Snape did not convince Fudge PERSONALLY that Malfoy is innocent. However, Fudge probably had a high position in the MoM bureaucracy during the war, or why did they elected him a Minister? He certainly doesn't strike me as someone from the outside who made his own achievements. He is the typical bureaucrat rising within the system. So I think Fudge was in the Ministry during the last phase of the war and during the post-war trials. Even if he wasn't, as a Minister he has the full records of the trials, and I'm sure he is familiar with them. In GoF, Harry names Malfoy, McNair, Avery, Nott, Crabbe and Goyle, and Fudge shouts back that they were all acquitted and Harry just found their names in old records of the trials. Kneasy: Snape knows something, I think. That or adding 2+2 and coming up with an answer. Mafoy makes generous 'contributions' and is a welcome guest in Fudge's office; McNair was the Official Executioner in PoA. Just how close to known/suspected DEs is Fudge? Will he defend his 'friends'? And the answer is yes. Snape tries again by showing his own Dark Mark; Fudge is unmoved. Snape (and by extension us) now know that Fudge is not to be trusted. Neri again: My hypothesis is that Snape told the MoM, under DD's orders, that Malfoy (and several other DEs) were under the Imperio and were not realy DEs. I'm sure Malfoy later took care to be in good terms with Fudge, and maybe he was the one who smoothed McNair's way in also. But I don't think Fudge would have trusted Malfoy so much if he thought Malfoy was really a DE. Fudge is weak and selfish, and I suspect he is covering after some serious debacles of the Ministry, but he is not Voldy's man. If he was, Voldy would have had an immediate and easy access to the DoM and the whole story of OotP wouldn't have been necessary. So if my hypothesis is correct, Snape has some reason to feel just a little bit guilty when Harry names the DEs and Fudge doesn't believe him. But maybe he also fears for his own skin if Fudge would believe Harry after all. Read carfully Ch. 36 in GoF when Harry names Malfoy. The spotlight is on Harry, Fudge and DD, with McGonagall shrieking about Crouch's execution. Snape is in the room, but he is not even mentioned for two pages until then, nor for another two pages after that. Only when Harry mentions Malfoy, JKR practically cuts him in the middle of the sentence in order to allow us to see Snape's reaction: ------------------------------------------ "Look, I saw Voldemort come back!" Harry shouted. He tried to get out of bed again, but Mrs Weasley forced him back. "I saw the Death Eaters! I can give you their names! Lucius Malfoy ?" Snape made a sudden movement, but as Harry looked at him, Snape's eyes flew back to Fudge. "Malfoy was cleared!" said Fudge, visibly affronted. ---------------------------------------------- That sudden movement of Snape is important. It is a clue. Did Snape realize just then that his good friend Lucius is a DE? Naah, don't kid me. Snape is not that na?ve. He always knew exactly what Malfoy is. Their "friendship" probably started when they were DEs together. Snape doesn't need to add 2+2. He knows the answer already, and he always knew it. Mark my words, Snape acquitted Malfoy after the war in order to regain his trust. Neri From aboutthe1910s at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 14:15:25 2004 From: aboutthe1910s at yahoo.com (aboutthe1910s) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 14:15:25 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: <20040709093622.21277.qmail@web25309.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105280 > Udderpd again > > Again I have re-read the whole section we have been discussingPages 403 to 408 in the UK edition. > > We have quite firm evidence in the rest of the book that HP/CC is a no go, so lets look at what is happening. > > Hermione is distracted and mainly concerned with her letter to Viktor when Ron says, "Are you that bad at kissing?" > > Harry answers "Dunno, maybe I am." > > "Of course your not," said Hermione absently, still scribbling away at her letter. > > "How do you know?" said Ron very sharply. > > Does this bring her to her senses because shortly after Hermione says two things both to Ron: > > "Ron, you are the most insensitive wart I have ever had the misfortune to meet." then less than half a page later. "Just because you have the emotional range of a teaspoon doesn't mean we all have." > > I think that here we have Hermione setting out her stall; Ron your one of my best friends but I don't fancy you; and Harry I promise I have never cried when I have dreamed of kissing you. > > I believe that Ron is worried about the trio. > > Lastly, Harry still wouldn't know romance if it bit him om the nose. I took the "Of course you're not" more to mean that Hermione understands what is actually going on with Cho (and hopefully is mildly...disgusted is too strong, but some watered down version of that). I took the insulting of Ron to imply both that she thinks that he is a moron for not realizing that she likes him and also that she herself is still uncomforable with her feelings for him. Just to offer an alternative reading of the section... a From aboutthe1910s at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 14:33:52 2004 From: aboutthe1910s at yahoo.com (aboutthe1910s) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 14:33:52 -0000 Subject: The Mirror and the Heart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105281 Iris wrote: > The Mirror, in PS/SS, represents the seventh ordeal Harry has to > pass through to find the Stone. If you acknowledge (as I do) that > the seven ordeals are a summary and a metaphor of the whole series > (1st ordeal== 1st book, etc ), well, you can suppose we'll see the > Mirror again (the Mirror, or something similar) in the seventh book. > And, maybe, Sirius' small mirror will play a part in the outcome. > Simply because mirrors, small or huge, play an important part in > initiatory processes. For example, they are used in the Masonic > loges; the initiate is locked in what they call a `meditation room', > where he/she finds a curtain and the following sentence: `If you > have a genuine wish, if you possess courage and intelligence, draw > this curtain.' As far as how the mirror may manifest itself in the seventh book if it isn't as itself, I imagine the veil in the Department of Mysteries to be a visually very similar object to the mirror--one has glass where one has a curtain, but I imagine the frames having very simliar structures. (Well, I mean, how many variations of an arch are there really?) I also see a certain connection between the function of the two, but maybe this is just me--on the other side of one is everything you want. On the other side of the other is nothing. Now I'm really just throwing this out there for consideration and wouldn't really count on it, but it seems to me that there is a possibility that they were created as intentional opposites... Maybe the mini mirrors Sirius and Harry had are useful simply as a reminder of the mirror, as a clue, to form a subtle connection between the veil and Mirror of Erised? a From kailincj at msn.com Fri Jul 9 19:07:09 2004 From: kailincj at msn.com (Gwen) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 19:07:09 -0000 Subject: Joke Shop Weapons??? The war and the childrens positions in it In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105282 Pam wrote: > > Just finished re-reading GoF, and the thought struck me: could F & > G's new joke shop at Diagon Alley be a kind of headquarters for > devising weapons to fight DE's & LV? Imagine the possibilities: > Mssrs. Crabbe & Goyle reaching for their wands and pulling out > haddocks and parrots...DD turning into a canary at the last > moment...DE's sinking into a portable swamp...fancy fireworks as a > diversionary tactic? I agree. I don't think that Fred's and George's considerable talents are there just for the purpose of comic relief. Even Hermione thought their "headless hats" were a good bit of magic. I suspect that some of their merchandise will play a significant part in the next two books. From kandbmom at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 15:01:46 2004 From: kandbmom at yahoo.com (kandbmom) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 15:01:46 -0000 Subject: How did Percy get Scabbers? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105283 How did Percy get Scabbers? We have not yet heard? Surely, the "Rat" did not just appear at the Borrow and Percy adopted him. I wonder if Arthur found the injured "Rat" at the scene where Sirius was arrested and took him home to nurse him back to health or was he given to Percy be a well place DE? I think this could be very important to what Percy has known all along and how he could have been used before Ron received the "Rat" Any thoughts? From plinker at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 14:28:38 2004 From: plinker at yahoo.com (Plinker) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 14:28:38 -0000 Subject: This url should answer questions about lineage, and raise some Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105284 http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/JKRWorldBookDay2004.html Hope you enjoy it! "Plinker" From rebekia_krum at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 9 16:37:37 2004 From: rebekia_krum at yahoo.co.uk (rebekia_krum) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 16:37:37 -0000 Subject: Thoughts on Book 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105285 ---SD wrote: > the Half Blood Prince is most probably Hagrid, who is a Half > Giant who seems to have some influence with them, otherwise why > would Dumbledore have sent him to the Giant's rather than going > himself? > > Thoughts? Well, I need to re-read CoS before making a real decision on who I think the HBP could be, but in every other novel up to this point the title has revealed a completely new topic or person. A philosophers stone, a secret chamber, a prisoner, a goblet, an order....so my knee-jerk reaction is the Half Blood Prince is someone with whom Rowling hasn't touched much light on yet or hasn't mentioned at all. However, she almost named CoS 'Half Blood Prince' so..there must be substantial clues in this book as to who that is....We already know that Hagrid is a half blood so....there isn't really any mystery involved if it were him. From meriaugust at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 19:21:26 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 19:21:26 -0000 Subject: The Night James & Lily Died In-Reply-To: <20040709160706.26549.qmail@web25210.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105286 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rebekia Krum wrote: snip > I'm assuming the Potters and Longbottoms were informed > of the Prophecy in it's entirety and the Longbottoms > were hence tortured instead of killed in order for the > DE to find out the rest of the Prophecy. Meri: Actually, the Longbottoms were tortured for information as to the whereabouts of LV following his downfall, and as Aurors the Longbottoms could very well have been involved in the search for Vapo!Mort. Bellatrix confirms this in GoF (in the trial scene, where she claims that she and her cohorts alone were loyal enough to seek their master). I don't think that it is clear how many people knew of the prophecy during VWI (Voldemort War One). I'm sure the effected families knew, DD, surely some of the higher placed members of the Order, but I don't know how many DEs knew of it, or the Longbottoms would have been better protected following LV's downfall. Anyway, just two sickles, er, knuts. Meri - shuddering to imagine what danger the Order would have been in even after the war, if the remaining DEs were loose in the world and tortuing people for info on the prophecy... From karenbjhess at hotmail.com Fri Jul 9 18:39:59 2004 From: karenbjhess at hotmail.com (Karen Hess) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 14:39:59 -0400 Subject: Wands - again Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105287 Cathy wrote: I don't think he could just walk into Olivanders and buy a new one, one that 'chose him'. Did he order it by Owl Post like he did the Firebolt? Were his spells with this wand not working adequately against Bella and that's why he was killed? Now KB(me): An idea just occurred to me during the discussion of wands. How much of Mr. Ollivander's statement that "the wand chooses the wizard" is immutable WW law (in the sense of "Laws of Physics") and how much is down to JKR illustrating Mr. Ollivander's character as an old-fashioned, expert wand-maker? What if Mr. Ollivander is an eccentric, expert wand-maker with his own peculiar views of how wizards and wands interact? To him, each wand is lovingly made and needs to be put in the hands of the right user, with Mr. Ollivander's personal assistance. But surely wands break, get lost, etc. And not everyone can regularly afford such personalized service. Wouldn't there be mass-retail or mail-order places that sell cheap wands made in Bulgaria (or wherever)? And both RL and WW abound with examples of second-hand purchases and hand-me-downs within families. I was going to say maybe Ollivander's was only for rich, privileged people, but Tom Riddle was an orphan -- but was it Tom or LV who bought the "brother" of Harry's wand? How could Ollivander know who had the "brother" wand if Tom Riddle bought it??? I didn't think it was universal knowledge that Tom Riddle was LV. (It sure would have been a different story if Harry and Ginny had known it ahead of time!) Does that mean that LV, not 11-year-old Tom, bought the "brother" wand? Which would mean that Mr. Ollivander knew he was selling a wand to do "terrible...but great" things, in spite of his protestation? Or did Mr. Ollivander know somehow that Tom evolved into LV? What is going on here? Is Mr. Ollivander ESE? Hmmm.... What's with those silvery eyes of his? (Eyes again.) KB - A new member who is finding it *very interesting* looking back at PS/SS and CoS with knowledge gained in later books and this discussion group! _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN Premium. Get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines From val_gal_05 at yahoo.ca Fri Jul 9 18:33:26 2004 From: val_gal_05 at yahoo.ca (val_gal_05) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 18:33:26 -0000 Subject: Why do we always gang up on Sirius? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105288 Theresa wrote: > But I do think he > was not the innocent victim all the time and can be nasty too - he > wanted to feed Sirius' soul to the dementors afterall. (snip) > James is as bad as Sirius in the pensieve scene and in my > opinion worse in some ways. (snip) > Anyway, I guess my point is...I think both James and Sirius, were > cocky pinheads but basically loveable loyal good-hearted pinheads. > Much like Fred and George who I think often say things they should > apologizes for too. But we seem to focus more on Sirius' bad > behavior. As for Snape, I think he dished out what he took and can be > just as cruel. Val: Ok, I have to strongly support that. Why is everyone so against Sirius? Even after we have seen that James is the more arrogant, bullying, etc, one of them. Yeah, James went to save Snape but I really doubt he did it FOR Snape, I think he did it to save Sirius's and Remus's behinds, think of how much trouble they would have been in! And Remus would never be able to live with it, I think that was James's motivation rather than Snape. (And we've seen Sirius show great loyalty to his friends, too.) Ok, so Sirius started it but we do know he can be reckless/ tends to not think sometimes and besides, we don't know the full context of what happened yet. I think people aren't blaming James as much as Sirius in the Pensieve scene because, well, he's dead and deserves some respect. If I wasn't in denial, I'd say so is Sirius, doesn't he deserve some respect? Anyways, my point is: Sirius is not a bad person, he's not evil and I really wish people here would stop portaying him as a bad guy most of the time... Val, who knows this won't change anyone's opinions at all, but will continue to defend Sirius :P From jmay_71 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 18:25:55 2004 From: jmay_71 at yahoo.com (jmay_71) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 18:25:55 -0000 Subject: Buckbeak In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105289 Cathy Drolet wrote: > > What in the world is going to happen to Buckbeak? Just had this > thought last night. Sirius is gone. We don't know what is going to > become of the Black residence. All I can say is if Buckbeak is taken > away and executed, I hope he eats Kreacher before he goes. One possibility is that there will be a new Minister of Magic (Arthur Weasley maybe?) who will give Buckbeak a pardon so he can be returned to Hagrid. Now that Malfoy's DE status is out in the open, he isn't going to be a fixture at the Ministry anymore and can't contest the pardoning of the animal that went after his son. Jen From claphamsubwarden at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 18:12:11 2004 From: claphamsubwarden at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 18:12:11 -0000 Subject: The New Wizard in Book 6 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105290 This is related to the thread about The Opening Chapter of Book 6. I was re-reading "HP and the Prisoner of Azkaban" last night and on page 99. (English Adult Edition - "Boggart in the Wardrobe") JKR describes Filch as a failed wizard rather than a squib. Is this creative license or is Filch really a wizard who is worse than Neville? Chris http://groups.yahoo.com/group/merlin_legacy From neil.zoe.collishaw at ntlworld.com Fri Jul 9 17:57:49 2004 From: neil.zoe.collishaw at ntlworld.com (zoe0coll) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 17:57:49 -0000 Subject: The Mirror and the Heart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105291 Iris: > Since the first time I read the series, I had this > feeling: maybe the Mirror of Erised is a two-way > mirror, and it will play a part in the outcome. I > always thought that the sentence written `back to > front' on the frame wasn't just a pleasant detail. Hi all, I'm new here (amazed at the amount of posts I've read over the last week or so - I feel as if I've been sitting at the computer 24/7!) but a thought just came to me while reading some of the mirror of erised posts. We know that the inscription on the mirror is reversed, and someone here postulated that you may have to turn away from the mirror to truly see the inscription, and JKR has said that the mirror Sirius gave to Harry will be important. What if Harry must face away from the mirror, but hold up Sirius's mirror so that he sees the inscription clearly and then whatever is reflected at him backwards in the mirror would be the true reflection, and can be used as some kind of weapon, or information etc against LV or regarding Sirius, who may have some informaiton from beyond the grave! Just a thought! Zoe C From mommystery at hotmail.com Fri Jul 9 19:38:13 2004 From: mommystery at hotmail.com (mommystery2003) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 19:38:13 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Percy... also HBP (was: Re: Dumbledore and Sirius; Percy Weasly; Defending Percy; Slytherin as HBP) In-Reply-To: <20040709050557.1099.qmail@webmail7.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105292 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amey Chinchorkar" > > >> Ces > >> I read that to mean that both James and Sirius had already attacked > >> Snape in the past and he was almost always prepared now. Two against > >> one certainly shows (to me at least)who are the real cowards and > >> bullies here. > >> Sirius was a risk to himself at Grimmauld Place - he was sitting > >> around with little to do, apparently feeling sorry for himself, which > >> is a very dangerous thing to do and can lead to impulsive acts...such > >> as running off to the Ministry, instead of staying put like he was > >> supposed to. Instead he rushes off to save Harry, who himself > >> doesn't think ahead and gets Sirius in trouble. > >> I think a pensieve is objective - it seems to show events as they > >> happened, without editing. It's a memory of that person's version of > >> what happened. > > Amey: > What gave you impression that "both" James and Sirius had picked fight with him? It is nowhere mentioned that they *both* attacked him at the same time even once in the whole scene. Also, we know that he attacked James when he was not watching him, and could have done again if Sirius hadn't stepped in. Here nobody is coward (I agree not even Snape) because it was always a fair fight, one-to-one, the other person stepping in if somebody tried to attack his friend from behind, which is not at all fair. I don't mean to say that it redeems James for what he did, but nobody in that scene (including Snape) except Lily comes out as a good character. > > Also in GP, Sirius wasn't sitting around doing nothing, he had nothing to do. He couldn't go out and work. He was feeling sorry for himself for that, which was further fueled by Snape. (Remember, he did not take the same suggestion from Fred/George seriuosly because he knew they didn't mean it.) Snape was goading him, he knew the situation fully, still he was teasing Sirius. You can't expect anybody to take this. As for rushing to MoM, that was because he loved Harry and he could not stay put when Harry was in danger. Of course Harry was wrong in going ahead without thinking, but then that's a different issue. And also, remember who told Sirius to stay put? It is Snape, so I am sure he > must have made it sound pretty *sweet* for Sirius to hear. Even if it was Snape who told Sirius to stay put, there had to have been other members of the Order he could have checked with before rushing off. I'm sure they all have ways of getting in touch with each other in an emergency. And I believe it was Sirius who started the whole bit at Grimmauld Place when Snape told Harry to sit down. That was a situation between a teacher and a student and Black disrupted it and Snape responded. Both acted immaturely. > And as for penseive, if it shows "a memory of that person's version of what happened.", it's pretty subjective, and the scene might even be different. (Has anyone here heard that mind changes especially painful memories? That is a part of pshycological defence. SOrry to go off topic, I am not suggesting that it *is* the case here, but it might be.) From Amber_Falls at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 19:29:26 2004 From: Amber_Falls at yahoo.com (Amber_ Falls) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:29:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Snape's Destiny In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040709192926.16708.qmail@web90010.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105293 Alla: > Snip> > > I keep coming back to Snape's betrayal. I think I > also said that > rather recently, but it bears repeating. Betrayal is > a horrible thing > to me, but does any of us really feel that Snape > betrayed his firends > and Master or more like he came to his senses when > he came back to > Dumbledore? Amber: Let's assume that LV and his DE knows Snape left. They certainly will see it as betrayal.Something must have happen that Snape decided to leave LV side. DD has said that Snape did leave LV before his downfall.(please correct me if I'm wrong)In the end it's just from which side you want to look at it. Amber From rebekia_krum at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 9 19:21:08 2004 From: rebekia_krum at yahoo.co.uk (rebekia_krum) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 19:21:08 -0000 Subject: Room of Requirements (was Re: Dumbledore, Percy and others) In-Reply-To: <20040708143313.27308.qmail@webmail30.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105294 > Amey: > Remember him giving hint about Room of Requirements to > Harry in GoF? I am sure he knows more about Hogwarts than he > lets us know. I'm 99% certain we are introduced to the 'Room of Requirements' as early as PS. I believe when Harry was running from Filch in his invisibility cloak the night he snuck out that he ran right into the RoR. (I'm using my American versions for reference since they have a Contents) On page 206 of PS "Perhaps because it was dark, he didn't recognize where he was at all. There was a suit of armor near the kitchens, he knew, but he must be five floors above there." , "A door stood ajar to his left. " , "It looked like an unused classroom. The dark shapes of desks and chairs were piled against the walls, and there was an upturned wastepaper basket-but propped against the wall facing him was something that didn't look as if it belonged there, something that looked as if someone had just put it there to keep it out of the way." In OotP (American pg 388) Harry states the RoR is on the seventh floor. The Room of Requirements does need to be thought about initially for others to find it.... by pacing back and forth three times before the room appears. (OotP 389) However, once the door is visable...anyone can enter who needs to (The DA have no problem finding the door and entering...same as Malfoy at the end of OotP). So Dumbledore, we know, uses the RoR in GoF for a chamber pot (OotP 387) . In Book One, Dumbledore needed to use the Room of Requirements to store and hide the Mirror of Erised. Until it could be used--Choosing the RoR because so few people ever stumbled onto it and only when they needed to did they find the room...Harry needed a place to hide that particular night....and Dumbledore had conjured the Room already to hide the Mirror. If we are introduced to the Room of Requirements in book One...My theory that Dumbledore intended for Harry to find the Mirror of Erised to prepare him for the end of book one...(or maybe even the end of book seven) rings even more true. Harry needed an empty classroom to hide, but....Dumbledore needed harry to find the Mirror in preperation... From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 9 19:47:39 2004 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 19:47:39 -0000 Subject: Snape going back? (was: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105295 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > [SSS: > I pulled one statement out & put it at the top to argue a point, > Salit; hope you don't mind.] No. :-) [ Regarding the deteriorating relationship between Harry and Snape ] > But I suspect that, in spite of his stubborness and his protestations > at the end of OoP, Harry *will* begin to really HEAR DD's words about > Snape in book 6 (or book 7). Don't get me wrong, I don't think > there's any chance in the world that they'll ever be buddies, but I > think at some point a partial, grudging respect will appear from > Harry for Snape. The primary reason for the bad blood between Harry and Snape is Snape's attitude towards him. Snape hates Harry even before he has exchanged a single word with him. He humiliates him in the first potions class for no reason at all. While Harry may have contributed, it was certainly a reaction to Snape's attitude. It has been mentioned several times how Snape never fails to denigrate Harry's work or Harry himself each time he passes his caulderon during potions, and this has been going on since the first lesson (remember Harry had points taken off by Snape for something he did not do). There is no sign whatsoever that Snape has changed his attitude or feelings, nor have we seen any evidence that Snape can ever become "nice" or understanding. His continuous putdowns of Sirius Black in OoP are a case in point. One would have thought that he could show some compassion to a man imprisoned in the worst type of prison in the world for 12 years for a crime he did not commit. But Snape still carries the same gripes and vindictiveness he has shown as a teen. I am not saying he is evil, only that he completely lacks in empathy and compassion or maturity. Harry will mature and he is certainly a caring and compassionate person. But for any type of reconciliation between them, Snape has to show personal qualities that I doubt very much he will ever possess. > If Harry doesn't achieve an OWL with sufficiently > high marks to be taken into Snape's 6th year Potions class, it just > might provide just the break from Snape that Harry needs to get > BEYOND Snape's treatment of him in class just a bit. Harry will be in Snape's potions class, otherwise the whole story will lack some of the best scenes in the story, but I don't believe he will get an "O" in potions, I think it will be an "E". Snape will have to lower his standards. Either the authorities will decide to lower entry requirements for auror positions (as they are in a war situation) or perhaps Draco Malfoy will also not get an "O", forcing Snape (who wants him in his class) to accept Harry as well. One thing I am certain of is - there will be no improvement in their relationship in book 6... > But I actually think his "friendship" > and "loyalty" to Lucius are a put-on, and I think that he is closer > to certain members of the Hogwarts staff [McGonagall, for instance] > than many people seem to believe. *I* don't think Snape will go > back. I think he respects McGonnagal, but there is no indication of "closeness" with anyone, except Draco Malfoy (who can come into his office at will and is addressed by first name). Salit (looking forward to more nasty Snape/Harry confrontations :-)) From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 9 19:55:36 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 19:55:36 -0000 Subject: The Mirror and the Heart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105296 Iris wrote: > > And, maybe, Sirius' small mirror will play a part in the outcome. > > Simply because mirrors, small or huge, play an important part in > > initiatory processes. For example, they are used in the Masonic > > loges; the initiate is locked in what they call a `meditation > > room', where he/she finds a curtain and the following sentence: > > `If you have a genuine wish, if you possess courage and > > intelligence, draw this curtain.' aboutthe1990s wrote: > I imagine the veil in the Department of Mysteries to be a visually > very similar object to the mirror--one has glass where one has a > curtain, but I imagine the frames having very simliar structures. > I also see a certain connection between the function of the two, > but maybe this is just me--on the other side of one is everything > you want. On the other side of the other is nothing. Now I'm > really just throwing this out there for consideration and wouldn't > really count on it, but it seems to me that there is a possibility > that they were created as intentional opposites... SSSusan: Just to make sure I understanding you...which is which?? The one which has everything you want on the other side is the veil? the one which has nothing is the mirror? Or vice versa? I'm asking because I'm not sure if you mean literally ON THE OTHER SIDE of the mirror or IN THE REFLECTION of the mirror.... Siriusly Snapey Susan From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Jul 9 20:03:41 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 20:03:41 -0000 Subject: The Mirror and the Heart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105297 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > > SSSusan: > I remember this post!! And I also remember that I disagreed w/ you > then...and still do. We're seeing the word "use" in different > lights. Here's a snippet of a response to you the first go-round: > > ********************************** > KAT/rxk replied in #95664: > > But Quirrel DID want the stone to use it to benefit himself-by > > giving it to LV, he expected to be greatly rewarded; perhaps > > through the riches it might create or even some of the elixer. > > Hence, his motives would not be "pure", whereas Harry's were to > > keep the Stone safe. > > Siriusly Snapey Susan: > I think Kat is exactly right. Harry's & Quirrell's intentions were > quite different. > ******************************** > Kneasy: Well, we can argue about this until the cows come home, but the fact of the matter is that Quirrell did not want to use the Stone - that's made quite clear in canon. Subsequent events are problematical, but it seems that to Voldy Quirrell had only one use - to find and hand over the Stone. If that's true - and we have no reason to think otherwise - then we are forced to conclude that DD's at it again - he's shaving the truth. Harry and quirrell did have different motives, true. Harry wasn't trying to find the Stone at all, he was trying to stop someone else from finding it - Quirrell. But neither intended to use it - and that, according to DD is what matters. The Mirror hid the Stone from anyone who wanted to use it. "But no more questions" Sly old bugger, DD. > > SSSusan: > This is a fascinating take on it, and I'm really enjoying the > thoughts you, Dave & Iris so far have put out about the Mirror. I'm > not sure I can quite buy going so far as to say the viewer sees DD's > desires & wants, though. > > WHY would DD want Harry to see his family? I think he wanted Harry > to find the mirror, yes, and to familiarize himself with what it does > and how it works so that he would recognize it when he saw it again. > But I don't think DD "programmed it" or has power over it in such a > way as to establish what it shows each viewer. I mean, what if > DD "chose wrong" and the viewer said, "That mirror's a load of sh*t; > THAT'S not my deepest desire"?? > Kneasy: Oh ye of little faith - if it's a communication device, and every mirror we've seen in the WW does communicate (or at least I can't remember one that doesn't) - why shouldn't DD's be one that broadcasts what DD 'desires and wants' you to see? Very handy, I'dve thought. But of course when DD looks into it he just sees his own reflection - maybe holding a pair of socks. As to why show Lily and James, that's hinted at in OoP chap 37, I think - where DD vapours on about how he prevaricated in telling Harry the truth, how he wanted peace of mind for Harry, how he wanted happiness for him etc, etc. He was giving Harry something Harry had never had before - his family. As for programming it - no; I think it more likely to be 'live broadcast' than automatic response. That way he tailors it to the viewer. He could get it wrong I suppose - but how often do you think that would happen? It's hardly left lying about; only three people we know about have looked into it and it lied to one of them. In the climax of PS/SS it didn't show Harry what he wanted, it showed him what it was going to *do*. If it was 'programmed' how the hell did it know that young Harry Potter would turn up to save the day? Harry's deepest desire was to get out of there but it didn't bother to show him that bit. It all seems a bit too convenient for something in automatic mode. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 9 20:09:15 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 20:09:15 -0000 Subject: Why do we always gang up on Sirius? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105298 Theresa wrote: > > But I do think he was not the innocent victim all the time and > > can be nasty too - he wanted to feed Sirius' soul to the > > dementors afterall. > (snip) > > James is as bad as Sirius in the pensieve scene and in my > > opinion worse in some ways. > (snip) > > Anyway, I guess my point is...I think both James and Sirius, were > > cocky pinheads but basically loveable loyal good-hearted > > pinheads. Val: > Ok, I have to strongly support that. Why is everyone so against > Sirius? Even after we have seen that James is the more arrogant, > bullying, etc, one of them. > > Yeah, James went to save Snape but I really doubt he did it FOR > Snape, I think he did it to save Sirius's and Remus's behinds, > think of how much trouble they would have been in! And Remus would > never be able to live with it, I think that was James's motivation > rather than Snape. > I think people aren't blaming James as much as Sirius in the > Pensieve scene because, well, he's dead and deserves some respect. > If I wasn't in denial, I'd say so is Sirius, doesn't he deserve > some respect? > > Anyways, my point is: Sirius is not a bad person, he's not evil and > I really wish people here would stop portaying him as a bad guy > most of the time... SSSusan: I don't think "everyone" *is* against Sirius or portraying him as a bad guy most of the time at all. I don't see why pointing out a problem, flaw, arrogance, whatever you want to call it, with Sirius is necessarily being "against" him or portraying him as a bad guy. Lots of us have been arguing for quite some time that these characters are GREY and complex. It's easy to "like" a character and still see his failings. I also don't see how James comes out as MORE arrogant and bullying than Sirius. In THIS scene, perhaps. Overall? No. Whatever the motivation for it, James stopped Snape; Sirius did not. James also managed to do *something* to win Lily over, and from what we see in the Penseive scene, I think he'd have had to do a nearly complete 180 in some areas to convince her he was worthy. Siriusly Snapey Susan From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Jul 9 20:10:28 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 20:10:28 -0000 Subject: JKR's flipflop on Snape [Was: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes/] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105299 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mnaper2001" wrote: > > I still think its quite possible that Snape will do something awful because he can't control certain impulses (DD's words "Some scars run too deep for healing" seem almost prophetic), but I also wonder if JKR won't ultimately paint Snape as a good man but not a nice man. < I agree it would be plausible for Snape to do something like this but it wouldn't fit very well with the theme of choice. In fact, Harry thinks something like this has already happened. He thinks Sirius went to the MOM because of Snape's taunting. I don't see that at all--one might as well say that Sirius went because Molly accused him of being an unfit godfather and blame her. I don't believe Sirius felt like he had anything to prove to either of them. He was just, as he once told Harry, spoiling for a fight. I don't think Snape would be tempted to rejoin Voldemort, but he might be tempted to use the Dark Arts again in order to defeat him. Just supposing Harry wanted to learn how to do an unforgivable curse, who else do we know who would teach him? > I think it's quite possible that Snape did something that may have indirectly or directly contributed to the Potters' demise. The way he flinches when Harry talks about hearing his mother scream after the dementor close call is quite suspicious - < ::puzzled look:: I don't recall Snape being present when Harry discusses his Dementor close call. Reference, please? Pippin From lbiles at flash.net Fri Jul 9 20:11:52 2004 From: lbiles at flash.net (leb2323) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 20:11:52 -0000 Subject: COS musings/questions (long) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105300 When all of the hooplah about the HBP and the supposed links between COS and book 6 started I decided to have yet another leisurely reread through COS to see what jumped out at me this time (it's always something different it seems). These are the things that stood out to me the most or presented the most questions. In ch 11 The Dueling Club -- After the duel that night back in his dorm there is a short interlude (just 6 very short paragraphs) where Harry is worrying over being a parselmouth and having been placed in Gryffindor instead of Slytherin. This brief scene is sandwiched between the long duel scene and a long scene starting in morning classes and stretching all the way through the next attack. The short little snippet of his ponderings doesn't seem to fit or flow and because of that it makes me think that this is just the recap that JKR came up with to replace the detailed back information that she is saving out for book 6. I know that several posters have already speculated that the back story on the Potter side of the family will be fleshed out in book 6 and this teaser as it were seems to prove it to me. In ch 14 Cornelius Fudge -- The students are trying to decide on the classes to take the next year and Percy is counseling Harry when he tells him "Play to your strengths, Harry." This is exactly word for word what Crouch!Moody tells Harry in GOF when talking about fighting the dragons. Isn't Harry given this same exact advice (except in different contexts) in every single book? I can't recall specifics off the top of my head but it seems like it happened. Maybe this is going to be his secret in defeating LV -- playing to his strengths. Later in the same chapter, McGonagall has just addressed the Gryffindors after the attack on Hermione and Penelope Clearwater. Once she walks out it is a near lynch mob scene with Lee Jordan stirring everyone up yelling "Haven't any of the teachers noticed that the Slytherins are all safe? Isn't it objious all this stuff's coming from Slytherin? The Heir of Slytherin, the monster of Slytherin -- why don't they just chuck all the Slytherins out?" I think that this attitude may be the prevailing mood of the whole school in book 6 further dividing the school despite the sorting hat's warning. In ch 15 Aragog -- Harry is reminding himself of Dumbledore's advice: "I will only truly have left this school when none here are loyal to me . . . . Help will always be given at Hogwarts to those who ask for it." Now, I know and will readily admit right off the bat that this is farfetched, but how widespread is the 'help will be given' part of this advice. When I read this part I immediately thought of the scene in OOtP where Harry is desperately trying to remember something in one of his OWLs, silently asks for help, and ends up reading either Lavender or Parvati's mind to get his answer. Could this be some sort of charm over the school (kind of like what makes the room of requirement work!) where if you sincerely ask for help it comes to you. Of course the anti-cheating charms would probably counteract something like that during OWLs. Like I said - farfetched but a thought nonetheless. In ch 17 The Heir of Slytherin -- Harry is fighting the basilisk and the fang pierces him just above the elbow. Isn't this the exact same spot that Wormtail cuts him to get the blood for the ritual in GoF? I wonder if there is any significance to that. Also, I had posted this question long ago but no interest was sparked. However, I am still curious and so am trying here again. In a later book the sword of Gryffindor is displayed in a glass case in DD's office. Was the sword always on display there or did Harry summon it out of thin air when he literally pulled it out of the hat in CoS and now DD has it encased as an heirloom keepsake. Since the hat and the sword both belonged to Godric then it could be plausible that it materialized from nowhere instead of being summoned from DD's office. In ch 18 Dobby's Reward -- Harry gives the diary back to Lucius. Even though all the ink drained out of it when it was pierced by the fang and it is supposedly empty wasn't it a dangerous thing to return? DD also warns Lucius "not to go giving out any more of LV's old school things." Does this mean that TR and LM were at school together? Why does Lucius have them and what else can we expect to see? And lastly from the same chapter . . . does anyone else get a chill that Harry tells Dobby "Just promise never to try and save my life again." Knowing how literal house elves can be this could turn out to be Harry's downfall in the end! Just some musings. Any comments will be appreciated! leb From vmonte at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 20:12:30 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 20:12:30 -0000 Subject: Joke Shop Weapons??? Setting up store front In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105301 Pam wrote: Just finished re-reading GoF, and the thought struck me: could F & G's new joke shop at Diagon Alley be a kind of headquarters for devising weapons to fight DE's & LV? Imagine the possibilities: Mssrs. Crabbe & Goyle reaching for their wands and pulling out haddocks and parrots...DD turning into a canary at the last moment...DE's sinking into a portable swamp...fancy fireworks as a diversionary tactic? Gwen wrote: I agree. I don't think that Fred's and George's considerable talents are there just for the purpose of comic relief. Even Hermione thought their "headless hats" were a good bit of magic. I suspect that some of their merchandise will play a significant part in the next two books. vmonte responds: What if Honeydukes moves to a larger location and Fred & George end up setting up their business at the old site? They would then have direct access to the school. vivian From heynorty at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 17:21:13 2004 From: heynorty at yahoo.com (heynorty) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 17:21:13 -0000 Subject: just a couple of thoughts about Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105302 ellencs44 wrote: > How about this one instead though. Harry as icon. He is a > totally iconic character, with the minor exception of his Divination > homework, where he's all teenage boy. Virtually every action he takes > is to help, to save, for good. Also, he's, considering all that's > going on around him, a remarkably passive character. He says very little > really, but listens a lot, not always to good effect, but he listens, and > he watches, usually to very good effect. > What if our world isn't the only one where babies can be 'created.' What > if the prophecy, given, I believe, a year before both Harry and Neville > were born, wasn't about Harry at all, but was about Neville. What if, in > order to protect Neville, Harry was created, by Dumbledore, who knows > exactly what will happen, and lets it, to test the stuff, so to speak, that > Harry's made of. No need to duck!!! Anyhow--I gave thought to as what you said in your post. I agree with you on Harry being an "iconic" figure per se. I, personally not might have used such a term to describe him; but I can see how many people would view him as an icon or archetype figure. I know there are multiple theories as to what exactly Harry is supposed to symbolize, but I will leave that to another time. What I do agree with you a 100% on is how Harry can be so passive. I am suprised it is not remarked upon much more. Especially in books 1- 4, Harry is a person that seems to "go-along-to-get-along." Not until book 5, where he is angry and then later full of grief-do we see Harry being more proactive in terms of trying to get a better handle on his situation. He is not like many his boys his age as well, in terms of listening ability, moral compass, and life experience. Another thing, I noticed--is how little Ron and Harry ever talk about girls. I mean really talk about girls, and not asking one or other where Hermione is. He is different from his peer group in that regard as well. While I do believe that Neville will play a larger and more important role, in the final 2 books, I do not see him being the person that will defeat Voldemort. I believe Harry will be the person--who somehow, someway will be the one to defeat Voldemort. There has been loads of speculation on various websites and message boards-- regarding Neville and the prophecy. Ultimately, if this was the case-- the the title of the series would not be Harry Potter and fill in the blank. It would be Neville Longbottom and fill in the blank. I think that there are keys within in Neville's memory that will certainly aid in the upcoming war. Timeturner!Harry created by Dumbledore sent back in time to help Neville. It reminds of of the Terminator movies. I am not sure about that one. "heynorty" From lkadlec at princeton.edu Fri Jul 9 20:17:11 2004 From: lkadlec at princeton.edu (curly_of_oster) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 20:17:11 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes (or Snape-aholics and Siriophiles) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105303 Kneasy recently said: In the constant to-ing and fro-ing about Snape and Sirius which seems to be one of the dividing lines between the fans, I think there's a basic mis-understanding of where some people are coming from. I think that I can claim credit for first using the identifying labels "Siriophiles" and "Snape-aholics" that highlights the difference. Siriophiles *like* Sirius; they think he's lovely, sexy, maltreated and for all his faults basically cuddly. Snape-aholics find ole Sevvy fascinating, they can't get enough of him, but they're under no illusions - he is a deeply unpleasant character. Most of them would/will probably be disappointed if he ever reforms. Me (Lisa): Huh??? Clearly I have spent at least some time in a very different HP fandom than you have. :-) Seriously, though, in HP fandom I have encountered just as many Snape fans who "like" him in exactly the way you're describing "Siriophiles" liking Sirius as I have Snape fans who find him a fascinating if deeply unpleasant *character*. And by the same token, I know of a number of fans of Sirius who would never in a million years describe him as "cuddly." Some of them don't even think he's a particularly nice person. Kneasy: When the Anti-Snape Alliance flail away, castigating him for the way he treats Harry and Neville, nurses his grudges against James and Sirius, they're really missing the point. We know all that. It's not news it's canon. For Snape-aholics the nub of the question is - why? What is the back-story, what are Snape's motivations? Lisa: But not everybody does seem to "know" these things. I have seen it argued that Snape treats everyone equally, for example. I've seen it stated as fact that he has such a strong "moral code" that he would save you even if he hates you (based entirely, as far as I could see, on the counter-cursing the broom episode in PS/SS). I've seen it argued that his behavior in PoA has nothing to do with nursing a grudge against Sirius, but was rather *all* about protecting the students. Personally, I agree that Snape is an interesting character, that he adds a lot to the books, and that there is clearly more to him that we have yet to learn. However, I also think that wanting to know about/thinking there is a back-story and motivation for certain actions (say, his treatment of Harry and Neville, to use one of your examples) is no more valid than theorizing that he's treating them that way simply because he is a bitter, nasty man. Lisa From meyerjc16 at uww.edu Fri Jul 9 17:57:47 2004 From: meyerjc16 at uww.edu (ge25y) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 17:57:47 -0000 Subject: Snape as the HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105304 meglet2: > Any takers for Snape as the HBP? I know this is a wild guess and > that as head of Slytherin he should presumably be pure blood, but > there are maybe inconsistencies in the Slytherin = pure blood > thing. I'm new to this so I'm sorry if I don't follow all the rules right. You might have hit on something here. I don't think that you need to be pureblood to be in Slytherin. After all Voldermort was in Slytherin but he's half blood.... Makes you wonder huh? :) "ge25y" From ellencs44 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 14:50:20 2004 From: ellencs44 at yahoo.com (ellencs44) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 14:50:20 -0000 Subject: Half Blood Prince vs. Half-Blood Prince or Halfblood Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105305 "antoshachekhonte" wrote: > > UNLESS.... > > UNLESS she doesn't mean a prince who is a half-blood. > snip ellen: I haven't seen it but still not sure if it's been suggested, what about Crookshanks as the HBP? We now know that he's half kneasel. From rebekia_krum at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 9 19:47:49 2004 From: rebekia_krum at yahoo.co.uk (rebekia_krum) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 19:47:49 -0000 Subject: Room of Requirements (was Re: Dumbledore, Percy and others) In-Reply-To: <20040708143313.27308.qmail@webmail30.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105306 > Amey: > Remember him giving hint about Room of Requirements to > Harry in GoF? I am sure he knows more about Hogwarts > than he lets us know. I'm 99% certain we are introduced to the 'Room of Requirements' as early as PS. I believe when Harry was running from Filch in his invisibility cloak the night he snuck out that he ran right into the RoR. (I'm using my American versions for reference since they have a Contents) On page 206 of PS "Perhaps because it was dark, he didn't recognize where he was at all. There was a suit of armor near the kitchens, he knew, but he must be five floors above there." , "A door stood ajar to his left. " , "It looked like an unused classroom. The dark shapes of desks and chairs were piled against the walls, and there was an upturned wastepaper basket-but propped against the wall facing him was something that didn't look as if it belonged there, something that looked as if someone had just put it there to keep it out of the way." In OotP (American pg 388) Harry states the RoR is on the seventh floor. The Room of Requirements does need to be thought about initially for others to find it.... by pacing back and forth three times before the room appears. (OotP 389) However, once the door is visable...anyone can enter who needs to (The DA have no problem finding the door and entering...same as Malfoy at the end of OotP). So Dumbledore, we know, uses the RoR in GoF for a chamber pot (OotP 387) . In Book One, Dumbledore needed to use the Room of Requirements to store and hide the Mirror of Erised. Until it could be used--Choosing the RoR because so few people ever stumbled onto it and only when they needed to did they find the room...Harry needed a place to hide that particular night....and Dumbledore had conjured the Room already to hide the Mirror. If we are introduced to the Room of Requirements in book One...My theory that Dumbledore intended for Harry to find the Mirror of Erised to prepare him for the end of book one...(or maybe even the end of book seven) rings even more true. Harry needed an empty classroom to hide, but....Dumbledore needed Harry to find the Mirror in preperation... "rebekia_krum" From donpietro69 at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 9 19:51:07 2004 From: donpietro69 at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Lee=20Moyo?=) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 20:51:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040709195107.51326.qmail@web25106.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105307 a wrote: > I took the "Of course you're not" more to mean that Hermione > understands what is actually going on with Cho (and hopefully is > mildly...disgusted is too strong, but some watered down version of > that). I took the insulting of Ron to imply both that she thinks that > he is a moron for not realizing that she likes him and also that she > herself is still uncomforable with her feelings for him. Just to > offer an alternative reading of the section... I totally agree with you on this point. I wrote a long theory on that we should not dismiss the R/H relationship and is much as likely as the H/H relationship. Your argument has swayed me a bit towards the latter, but caution would be wise; I am going to read that section again to confirm, but if Hermione has dreamt of kissing Harry then it is possible that she likes both but is not sure which way she will go. Harry being the easy way 'cause all would say she chose a good boy and Ron would be good for her 'cause she likes him but others may not think so, open for riducule amongst her peers which as we know at that age is not the best thing and that it is the important things around that stage. I hear people saying Hermione is far too bright for that, well just look at her in the first book when she ran to the toilet when the troll was there, she was upset by what Ron had said about her and as much as her having her priorities right, she was still bothered by what he said, not necessarily what other people say. Lee Moyo From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 9 20:40:58 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 20:40:58 -0000 Subject: Snape going back? (was: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105308 [ Regarding the deteriorating relationship between Harry and Snape ] SSSusan: > > But I suspect that, in spite of his stubborness and his > > protestations at the end of OoP, Harry *will* begin to really > > HEAR DD's words about Snape in book 6 (or book 7). Don't get me > > wrong, I don't think there's any chance in the world that they'll > > ever be buddies, but I think at some point a partial, grudging > > respect will appear from Harry for Snape. Salit: > The primary reason for the bad blood between Harry and Snape is > Snape's attitude towards him. Snape hates ... He humiliates ... > While Harry may have contributed, it was certainly a reaction to > Snape's attitude. > > There is no sign whatsoever that Snape has changed his attitude or > feelings, nor have we seen any evidence that Snape can ever become > "nice" or understanding. SSSusan again: Oh, believe me, I do think much of the fault lies w/ Snape, and even if he's doing some of it to save face w/ the DE kids, knowing Draco et al will be reporting to their parents, he's gone way farther than he needed to to save face. On the other hand.... As much as I believe [and I know there are several here who disagree with me on this] that Snape **could** have done a better job of EXPLAINING what Occlumency was about, how it works, that there's not much to teach about stopping it but still providing as much as he could, as well as a little info on clearing one's mind [I really do fault Snape for this], I DO also think Snape took some real strides in those early Occlumency lessons. He came as close as he's ever come to praising Harry. He took his *time* to consider and then answer some of Harry's question, and came as close as I think we've seen to having a real two-way conversation with him. Granted, he didn't maintain it--allowed himself (or made himself?) get angry with Harry for not being polite enough, thereby avoiding answering more questions/providing more info. But in short, even though some of the animosity and snideness was there, I think we *did* see some progress and a POTENTIAL for things to have settled down a little between them, at least when doing something for The Cause. All kinds of things went wrong after that [blame lies with both, imo], but in the first lesson [or two? I need to check], I think we were given a glimpse of how the "grudgingly working together" *could* have come about. Salit: > Harry will mature and he is certainly a caring and compassionate > person. But for any type of reconciliation between them, Snape has > to show personal qualities that I doubt very much he will ever > possess. SSSusan: What do you think would happen if Harry could actually manage to TELL Snape either that he recognizes the sacrifices Snape has made or to [shudder] thank Snape for the things he's done for the Order or to protect him [Harry]? I think Harry *will* mature, and while I'm not SURE it'll happen, I can at least envision Harry's arriving at a point in book 6 or 7 where he could do this. Do you think that might be enough to alter their relationship to where they could at least work together sometimes? Salit: > Harry will be in Snape's potions class, otherwise the whole story > will lack some of the best scenes in the story, but I don't believe > he will get an "O" in potions, I think it will be an "E". Snape > will have to lower his standards. SSSusan: Ooooh, I don't think I will EVER believe Snape would be willing to do this. Salit: > Either the authorities will decide to lower entry requirements for > auror positions (as they are in a war situation) or perhaps Draco > Malfoy will also not get an "O", forcing Snape (who wants him in > his class) to accept Harry as well. One thing I am certain of is - > there will be no improvement in their relationship in book 6... SSSusan: I'm still not so sure. Let's file this one away & see what happens in book 6. :-) SSSusan before: > > But I actually think his "friendship" and "loyalty" to Lucius > > are a put-on, and I think that he is closer to certain members of > > the Hogwarts staff [McGonagall, for instance] than many people > > seem to believe. *I* don't think Snape will go back. Salit: > I think he respects McGonnagal, but there is no indication of > "closeness" with anyone, except Draco Malfoy (who can come into his > office at will and is addressed by first name). SSSusan again: I don't know. There is a certain amount of teasing that goes on between SS & MM re: Quidditch. I wish we could be flies on the wall in both the staff lounge & the Order Headquarters. And I think Snape tolerates Draco as part of the act for Lucius & Voldy. We shall see! Siriusly Snapey Susan From tookishgirl_111 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 19:58:29 2004 From: tookishgirl_111 at yahoo.com (tookishgirl_111) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 19:58:29 -0000 Subject: Snape as the HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105309 Katie: > I was just thinking about this. Consider: > 1. Sirius says the pureblood families are all related. > 2. But Snape is not mentioned as being on the tapestry. > (Wouldn't Harry have noticed if he was?) > 3. We see a snippet of Snape's family background. I bet this > comes up again. > 4. There's something VERY important about Snape that JKR hasn't > told us. > > Therefore: Snape is the HBP! It's a possibility...we really know very little about Snape's heritage, except that he was most likely not related to the Black, Malfoy, or Weasley famlies (Snape was not named as being on the tapestry). We know that he will become mmore important to the plot as HBP and Book7 come out, but we're still not entirely sure why and how? We know that - according to his memory - as a child he was witness to verbal and emotional abuse, but we don't know why and how often it occured...was his father just a bastard who enjoyed tormenting his family, or was this a specific incidence in which a terrible fight occured? Was Snape's father just a bastard, or was his rage justified and we simply are not allowed to see why? Tooks - who would not shoot down a valid possibilty, but instead breath life into it From aboutthe1910s at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 20:06:51 2004 From: aboutthe1910s at yahoo.com (aboutthe1910s) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 20:06:51 -0000 Subject: The Mirror and the Heart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105310 > aboutthe1990s wrote: > > I imagine the veil in the Department of Mysteries to be a visually > > very similar object to the mirror--one has glass where one has a > > curtain, but I imagine the frames having very simliar structures. > > I also see a certain connection between the function of the two, > > but maybe this is just me--on the other side of one is everything > > you want. On the other side of the other is nothing. Now I'm > > really just throwing this out there for consideration and wouldn't > > really count on it, but it seems to me that there is a possibility > > that they were created as intentional opposites... > > > SSSusan: > Just to make sure I understanding you...which is which?? The one > which has everything you want on the other side is the veil? The one > which has nothing is the mirror? Or vice versa? I'm asking because > I'm not sure if you mean literally ON THE OTHER SIDE of the mirror or > IN THE REFLECTION of the mirror.... I was thinking that the Mirror of Erised has everything--either on the other side or in the reflection, depending on whether or not you believe the theory floating about involving the inscription being backwards and what actually lies on the other side--I don't think that in this context it necessarily makes a very big difference... a From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 20:55:20 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 20:55:20 -0000 Subject: Everything You Ever Wanted to Know about PERCY and more. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105311 For those who are strongly for or strongly against Percy, or just curious, below is a collection of in-depth and highly self-serving threads about Percy and his character. A must read for all Percy-philes and Percy-phobes. Date: Sun Jan 11, 2004 2:16 pm Subject: Ron is like Percy (was Chapter Discussion...) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/88447 Compares Ron and Percy's character. Date: Mon Dec 15, 2003 1:52 pm Subject: Re: Is it all Percy's fault? NOT!!! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/87132 A newer variation of my "Good Son" Theory. Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 4:40 pm Subject: BRAVO! - Percy Weasley under ... Imperius Curse? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/85258 From: "manawydan" Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 2:13 pm Subject: Re: Percy Weasley under Lucius' Imperius Curse? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/85244 Written by a avid Percy Defender, and stimulus for the post listed above. Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 5:06 pm Subject: Re: Where Percy got Scabbers http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/83893 A 'logical extension' analysis of the likely circumstance in which Percy aquired Scabbers. Date: Mon Jun 30, 2003 4:42 pm Subject: Re: Percy - The Good Boy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/66159 Recommended for all Percy Defenders. One of the original posts of my 'Good Son' Theory. From: "manawydan" Date: Mon Jun 30, 2003 12:58 pm Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Percy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/66065 This post inspired the post listed above. From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan Date: Fri Jan 5, 2001 9:01 pm Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Percy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/8631 The beginning of a long Percy thread that splinters into several Percy Sub-Threads. Just a few thoughts for the friends of Percy. Please join your local chapter of the P.I.N.E club (Percy Is Not Evil). Steve/Asian_lovr2 From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Fri Jul 9 20:07:53 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:07:53 -0400 Subject: HBP = Draco Message-ID: <000e01c465f0$6d2627b0$3ffae2d1@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 105312 Mandy: "Throughout the series the term Half-Blood has come to mean a wizard with part muggle blood. I think we can safely assume that both the Blacks and Malfoys have remained consistently pureblooded through their long history. While Draco is half a Black and half a Malfoy, he is not half-blooded by the definition of the term as described in the WW." The only difference is, I have yet to see the title Half Blood Prince written with a hyphen and I'm presuming, or assuming, that JKR has done that for a reason. I don't believe, for a second, that Draco is the HBP. It was just a thought that passed through my mind, while not in the shower, as I was reading that bit of OotP. Cathy From mnaperrone at aol.com Fri Jul 9 21:00:25 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 21:00:25 -0000 Subject: JKR's flipflop on Snape [Was: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes/] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105313 Pippin: > ::puzzled look:: I don't recall Snape being present when Harry > discusses his Dementor close call. Reference, please? > Ally: This, I will admit, I have stolen from some other post with no personal review or reference (blush), so maybe my "source" if you want to call it that was wrong. I assume this would have taken place in POA, which I don't own a copy of and haven't looked through in ages. I'll see if I can get a reference from the person that posted this (on mugglenet) and get back to you. From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Fri Jul 9 20:22:09 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:22:09 -0400 Subject: Joke Shop Weapons??? The war and the childrens positions in it Message-ID: <001901c465f2$6a0d3d00$3ffae2d1@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 105314 Vivian said: "Ron knows that he is the strategist, and so do his friends. When is a strategist most needed?, during a war of course! Ron is always watching out for Harry -- even when they were mad at each other during GoF, Ron still went downstairs to check on Harry (when Harry was talking to Sirius's floating head in the fireplace). I also think that Ron is willing to sacrifice himself to save Harry; we see it during the chess game: "That's chess! snapped Ron. "You've got to make some sacrifices! I take one step forward and she'll take me -- that leaves you free to checkmate the king, Harry!" Is this foreshadowing? Will Ron sacrifice himself to Belatrix?" Oh, stop, stop! I've thought for some time that Ron is going to die and it will absolutely break my heart. I had never thought of this before. Now another reason to worry! Cathy From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 21:04:50 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 21:04:50 -0000 Subject: How did Percy get Scabbers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105315 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kandbmom" wrote: > How did Percy get Scabbers? We have not yet heard? Surely, > the "Rat" did not just appear at the Borrow and Percy adopted him. > I wonder if Arthur found the injured "Rat" at the scene where > Sirius was arrested and took him home to nurse him back to health > or was he given to Percy be a well place DE? I think this could be > very important to what Percy has known all along and how he could > have been used before Ron received the "Rat" > Any thoughts? > > Kandbmom Asian_lovr2: You are in luck, I just posted a link to detail information on that very subject. From: "Steve" Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 3:55 pm Subject: Everything You Ever Wanted to Know about PERCY and more. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/105311 which contain amoung other things, the following link- From: "Steve" Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 5:06 pm Subject: Re: Where Percy got Scabbers http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/83893 A 'logical extension' analysis of the likely circumstance in which Percy aquired Scabbers. These are links to my posts, but they will lead you to long threads with detailed discussions. The short version explanation is - "... the "Rat" did ... just appear at the Borrow and Percy adopted him." Steve/asian_lovr2 From rebecca at chaosring.org Fri Jul 9 20:25:23 2004 From: rebecca at chaosring.org (sylvandraconem) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 20:25:23 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes (or Snape-aholics and Siriophiles) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105316 Lisa: Personally, I agree that Snape is an interesting character, that he adds a lot to the books, and that there is clearly more to him that we have yet to learn. However, I also think that wanting to know about/thinking there is a back-story and motivation for certain actions (say, his treatment of Harry and Neville, to use one of your examples) is no more valid than theorizing that he's treating them that way simply because he is a bitter, nasty man. S.D. There is also the fact of course that Snape (and I'm un unabashed Snape fan) at the points in which his treatment of Harry and Neville was extreme could have (and this is a theoretical point) been being watched by the Death Eaters, now remembering that to be an efficient spy they had to belive that his 'redemption' had been as phony as their own this victimisation of 'The Boy Who Lived' would have come across as a very easy way of showing continued loyalty. As for his grudge against Sirius and James, I think most people would have one against the people that had treated them the way he showed in his memories during OoP. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 9 21:06:50 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 21:06:50 -0000 Subject: The Mirror and the Heart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105317 aboutthe1910s wrote: >>> I imagine the veil in the Department of Mysteries to be a visually very similar object to the mirror--one has glass where one has a curtain, but I imagine the frames having very simliar structures. I also see a certain connection between the function of the two, but maybe this is just me--on the other side of one is everything you want. On the other side of the other is nothing. Now I'm really just throwing this out there for consideration and wouldn't really count on it, but it seems to me that there is a possibility that they were created as intentional opposites... <<< SSSusan, previously: >> Just to make sure I understanding you...which is which?? The one which has everything you want on the other side is the veil? The one which has nothing is the mirror? Or vice versa? I'm asking because I'm not sure if you mean literally ON THE OTHER SIDE of the mirror or IN THE REFLECTION of the mirror....<< aboutthe1910s replied: > I was thinking that the Mirror of Erised has everything--either on > the other side or in the reflection, depending on whether or not you > believe the theory floating about involving the inscription being > backwards and what actually lies on the other side--I don't think > that in this context it necessarily makes a very big difference... SSSusan again: Thank you for taking the time to clarify. I find it so interesting, because my first thought was that you meant it the OPPOSITE way. It depends, I suppose, upon what a person believes about an afterlife? Since DD has said death is just the next great adventure (paraphrasing), it occurred to me that you MIGHT have meant that *everything* is actually behind the VEIL and that *nothing* is actually behind the MIRROR, since it only shows desires and not truth.... Just a thought. :-) Siriusly Snapey Susan From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Fri Jul 9 21:40:27 2004 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 21:40:27 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105318 Melanie says: >Melanie: >Well, I think the thing is that we're so ready to forgive Snape >being a former DE that we haven't stopped to think what being a DE >really means. *snip* >For Snape to really have been a DE means that we have to come to >grips with the fact that he probably witnessed rape, torture, and >murder and did nothing to stop it, at the very least. And if he did >participate in the festivities (and let's be honest, you probably >had to kill kittens and burn down orphanages to even be a DE >candidate), chances are that when he was casting Unforgivables >around, *he meant it.* *further snippage* Oh, yes. I suspect Snape has done some really awful things. I also think he has memories that would curl the hair on a billiard ball -- and that the ones Harry saw aren't the worst; they are the ones he specifically didn't want Harry to see. I think Snape's past use of the Dark Arts, including Unforgivable Curses, may be the reason why Dumbledore does not give him the position of DADA teacher, for which he's obviously qualified. And I think Dumbledore probably knows about the things Snape has done in the past -- what he was like before -- and therefore accepts even the miserable being he is now as an improvement over what Snape used to be. Of course, all this is speculation. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Get fast, reliable Internet access with MSN 9 Dial-up now 2 months FREE! http://join.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/ From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Fri Jul 9 21:47:41 2004 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 21:47:41 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105319 "dumbledore11214" asks: >Since I love redemption in the fictional >characters, I can forgive him being a DE (only by value of him being >a fictional character :)), but if we will know for sure that he >participated in killings, I will be wanting to ask Snape apologists >why is it easier to forgive a former murderer than a former school >bully. An excellent question. I think the answer is: 1) We've never seen Snape murder anyone, in a Pensieve scene or anywhere else; we see Sirius and James bullying in considerable and loathesome detail. 2) Most of us thought much more highly of James and Sirius than we did of Snape (I almost wrote "all of us," but I forgot about the "Sirius is responsible for world hunger, AIDs, and the Iraqi war" crowd). 3) So far as I know, no one on this list has been murdered, but apparently many of them have been bullied. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Get tips for maintaining your PC, notebook accessories and reviews in Technology 101. http://special.msn.com/tech/technology101.armx From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Fri Jul 9 21:56:18 2004 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 21:56:18 -0000 Subject: The Mirror and the Heart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105320 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > > SSSusan: > Just to make sure I understanding you...which is which?? The one > which has everything you want on the other side is the veil? the one > which has nothing is the mirror? Or vice versa? I'm asking because > I'm not sure if you mean literally ON THE OTHER SIDE of the mirror or > IN THE REFLECTION of the mirror.... > > Siriusly Snapey Susan Hi SSSusan, I mean both. Of course, it's only a supposition of mine, but I would be ready to bet that Harry will have to pass literally ON THE OTHER SIDE of the mirror to find the solution, to defeat Voldemort. I don't know what is hidden on the other side. I suppose it could be some kind of no man's land between life and death, like in Jean Cocteau's `Orpheus' (Do you know this movie? It's beautiful-), or a world `down under'; honestly I don't know. At the same time, he can also face the mirror, pass through it, and find what he needs IN THE REFLECTION. `Reflection' means at the same time `image' and `meditation'. Meditation is a way of facing yourself, of facing your consciousness. The series is an initiatory process, a journey through Harry's soul gate. Just like in a meditation session. Harry will have to dive into his own heart and soul; he will have to face his self representation, to pass through it and to face finally who he is *really*, not what he thinks he is. And when he comes back from his journey, he will be able to find the solution he needs. Voldemort didn't manage to do it, or he didn't want to. He can only face his self representation; he's unable to face who he is really. In other words, he's unable to pass `through the mirror'. He sees just his own reflection, the image he wants to give. He's unable to reach the other side. Literally and metaphorically, it's a two-way journey. Like a journey to Hogwarts, or a time travel. It's a pendulum movement we can find at many levels in the series. But that's another topic Amicalement, Iris From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 9 22:00:36 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 22:00:36 -0000 Subject: The Mirror and the Heart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105321 SSSusan: > > I remember this post!! And I also remember that I disagreed w/ > > you then...and still do. We're seeing the word "use" in > > different lights. Here's a snippet of a response to you the > > first go-round: > > > > ********************************** > > KAT/rxk replied in #95664: > > > But Quirrel DID want the stone to use it to benefit himself-by > > > giving it to LV, he expected to be greatly rewarded; perhaps > > > through the riches it might create or even some of the elixer. > > > Hence, his motives would not be "pure", whereas Harry's were to > > > keep the Stone safe. > > > > Siriusly Snapey Susan: > > I think Kat is exactly right. Harry's & Quirrell's intentions > > were quite different. > > ******************************** Kneasy: > Well, we can argue about this until the cows come home, but the > fact of the matter is that Quirrell did not want to use the Stone - > that's made quite clear in canon. Subsequent events are > problematical, but it seems that to Voldy Quirrell had only one > use - to find and hand over the Stone. SSSusan: You're right, we could argue this 'til the cows come home...and it's always such fun to argue with you! But let me just *clarify* my position, and then I'll let it go. You're right that Q. didn't want to USE it in the sense of garnering immortal life for himself; I totally agree with that. But there is more than one way to USE something. I would argue, as KAT was doing, that Q. did indeed want to USE the Stone--either to make Voldy happy, or to get Voldy off his back [head], or to win Voldy's gratitude, or whatever, but certainly for no ALTRUISTIC end. He wasn't going to use it up to become immortal, but he was going to use it for some kind of personal gain. *Harry* OTOH really didn't want to USE it at all--neither use it up to become immortal, nor use it for personal gain--he simply wanted to PREVENT Q!V from using it. It was pure altruism that guided his actions, not a desire to USE the object. I hope that makes at least a modicum of sense. SSSusan: > > WHY would DD want Harry to see his family? I think he wanted > > Harry to find the mirror, yes, and to familiarize himself with > > what it does and how it works so that he would recognize it when > > he saw it again. But I don't think DD "programmed it" or has > > power over it in such a way as to establish what it shows each > > viewer. Kneasy: > Oh ye of little faith - if it's a communication device, and every > mirror we've seen in the WW does communicate (or at least I can't > remember one that doesn't) - why shouldn't DD's be one that > broadcasts what DD 'desires and wants' you to see? Very handy, > I'dve thought. > > As to why show Lily and James, that's hinted at in OoP chap 37, I > think - where DD vapours on about how he prevaricated in telling > Harry the truth, how he wanted peace of mind for Harry, how he > wanted happiness for him etc, etc. > He was giving Harry something Harry had never had before - his > family. > As for programming it - no; I think it more likely to be 'live > broadcast' than automatic response. That way he tailors it to the > viewer. > In the climax of PS/SS it didn't show Harry what he wanted, it > showed him what it was going to *do*. If it was 'programmed' how > the hell did it know that young Harry Potter would turn up to save > the day? Harry's deepest desire was to get out of there but it > didn't bother to show him that bit. SSSusan: This is all quite possible. I wonder, though, why DD would want to give Harry such a gift (bec. it seems that is what you're saying, it was the gift of seeing his family) when he also KNEW that Harry would be tempted to sit there and rot in front of it, tormented. Yes, thrilled beyond measure, but also so obsessed that he couldn't tear himself away. It's possible that DD did cause this. But it's also possible that DD set it up so that Harry would find it, come to know its true "mechanism" of showing our deepest desires and to then show him how dangerous a thing it can become precisely because it does show our deepest desires. But why do this? I really think it was all a set-up by DD, but for a different purpose than you're putting forth. I think DD knew he was going to use the mirror as the final protection for the Stone, and I believe those 7 tasks were set up as *sort of* a protection but also as a testing ground for Harry--to test his character, his determination, and his talents & abilities. Showing the mirror to Harry early allowed him to explain it to Harry; then he could test his mettle, to see just what Harry was made of when the stone was on the line. BTW, I don't think Harry's deepest desire was to get out of there at that moment. I don't think he was focusing on that *yet*. I think his deepest desire was truly to STOP Q!V, and THIS is precisely what DD was testing in Harry. WOULD his deepest desire be to split, or would it be (as DD suspected & hoped) to stop Q!V and protect the stone? That's my take, anyway. :-) Siriusly Snapey Susan From cruthw at earthlink.net Fri Jul 9 18:35:18 2004 From: cruthw at earthlink.net (caspenzoe) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 18:35:18 -0000 Subject: HBP & the Weasleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105322 > Valky: > Agreed, though I still have somewhat of a feeling that the Half > Blood intimation runs deeper than just a champion of the cause. > Though, indeed Arthur is a champion of the cause. > > Genma again: > > Now that we have ourselves a "King Arthur of the halfbloods," we > > would need our prince. I can't speculate as to this... perhaps > Ron or Percy? I don't know. > > > > Valky again: > Now, why did YOU say Ron first? > We could go on for a year considering which boy and why. Which could > be really fun and illuminating, for us to do. So, all we need is a > few more of us interested in examining the Weasleys as possible WW > royalty. > Any takers? > > (Is there anyone who remembers the thread on this list some time ago > that investigated this very theme long before the HBP title was > released. As I recall it had some base footing in the ponderings of > who was Gryffindors Heir.) Just some a thoughts along these lines: Is the "Weasley is Our King!" anthem running through OOTP a really obvious and broad JKR hint at royal blood in the Weasley line - and such blood specifically deposited in Ron - the youngest son? And don't we know that this anthem refers to Ron and not another of the Weasley brothers immediately? And how do we know it? There have been Weasely players on the Gryffindor Quidditch team throughout the books after all. Is Ginny the first female Weasley in generations because they've finally produced a true "King," and thus no further sons are needed? Also, don't you love the irony? All along, Harry has been the seeming leader of our heoric trio, with Ron stepping into the the background, playing the knight. But it's Ron who really calls the plays in SS, and practically orders Harry to go on while sacrificing himself (as in some traditions, pagan, neo-pagan and Christian are believed to be born to do). Ron, very Dumbledor-like really, is the better strategist, the better chess player, and the one Hermione (Ms. Smartie-pants that she is) seems to be falling for consciously (?) or not. Other ironies: the Weasley's poverty - a very "Christian" indication of nobility; and, along the same lines Arthur Weasley's broadness of love which includes the ordinary Muggle-born. Perhaps Dumbledore's real agenda in all this is to restore the once and future Kingly and Gryffindor line of Weasley to leadership over the more grasping Slytherin and Slytherin-controlled current Wizard leadership. Maybe he's ultimately a true servant of the house of Weasley? From lkadlec at princeton.edu Fri Jul 9 22:06:45 2004 From: lkadlec at princeton.edu (curly_of_oster) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 22:06:45 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes (or Snape-aholics and Siriophiles) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105323 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sylvandraconem" wrote: First quoting one bit of my last post: > Lisa: > Personally, I agree that Snape is an interesting character, that he > adds a lot to the books, and that there is clearly more to him that > we have yet to learn. However, I also think that wanting to know > about/thinking there is a back-story and motivation for certain > actions (say, his treatment of Harry and Neville, to use one of > your examples) is no more valid than theorizing that he's treating > them that way simply because he is a bitter, nasty man. Now the response: S.D. There is also the fact of course that Snape (and I'm un unabashed Snape fan) at the points in which his treatment of Harry and Neville was extreme could have (and this is a theoretical point) been being watched by the Death Eaters, now remembering that to be an efficient spy they had to belive that his 'redemption' had been as phony as their own this victimisation of 'The Boy Who Lived' would have come across as a very easy way of showing continued loyalty. As for his grudge against Sirius and James, I think most people would have one against the people that had treated them the way he showed in his memories during OoP. Back to Lisa: I must admit to some confusion. My point with this part of my post was simply that I think the Snape critics have just as much right to the idea that much of his behavior is due to his being, for example, a bitter and unpleasant person, as the Snape fans have to the idea that there are some deeper/hidden motives driving him. Maybe there's more to it, but maybe not. I deliberately avoided discussion of exactly *what* those motives or reasons might be (and whether or not they are valid), as that's really another whole argument. Nowhere in my post did I say that he didn't have a legitimate beef with James or Sirius, or that there definitely *isn't* an explanation for his treatment of Harry or Neville, so I'm not altogether sure what your argument with me is. :) On the other hand, I've never been terribly convinced by the whole "Snape treats Harry and/or Neville badly as part of his act as a spy" theory. From the point of view of Voldemort and his supporters, Snape is supposedly on their side, but playing a role as a Dumbledore supporter, or at the least playing a role as just another Hogwarts professor. If that is the case, wouldn't he be more convincing in either of these roles if he wasn't so obviously "against" the "Boy Who Lived"? Is he trying to convince whatever Death Eaters are supposedly keeping tabs on his behavior in his classroom (and even in one-on-one Occlumency lessons?) that he's a *bad* spy, that he's giving Dumbledore reason to doubt him? I most definitely think there is more to Snape than we know, and I'm curious as to what we'll find out in future books, but this is one explanation for his behavior that still doesn't make much sense to me. Clarification/explanation of it is most welcome. Lisa From alina at distantplace.net Fri Jul 9 22:08:42 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 18:08:42 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The rebirth of Lord Voldemort---a thought I had References: <002101c464aa$852f3d20$12570043@intergate.com> Message-ID: <001001c46601$4c714a70$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 105324 > I was reading along (hard to keep up; my 'puter's acting oddly, and running > rather slowly) and I came to a post mentioning how Lord V. was reborn from a > huge cauldron. > > It suddenly struck me that this is something I'd seen before. In Lloyd > Alexander's "Prydain" young-adult fantasy novels, one of the magical items > to be found is the Black Crochan (a "Crochan" is a cauldron), which is used > to make the "Cauldron-Born" undead warriors that serve the evil Death-Lord > Arawn. Like a lot of other things in this series, this comes from real > mythology---in the earliest versions of the King Arthur story, it was a > cauldron, not the Holy Grail, that the knights went in search of. > > I doubt that cauldrons of that size are in common use in the WW---could the > cauldron itself be a significant object? In Alexander's books, the rightful > owners comment that after Arawn's had his paws on it, it's ruint and fit > only to make more Cauldron-Born, and the good guys have to destroy it---at > the cost of a life. > > I wonder when/if we'll see that cauldron again? I also saw the parallel between LV's rebirth and the legend, however, I think rather it being a reference to Lloy'd Alexander's work, JKR is using the ancient Welsh myth, one of the Mabinogion collection, that Lloyd Alexander himself based his whole Prydain series on. There are plenty of reference to real life mythology in JKR's works, starting with chars named after gods and goddesses. I thought her use of the Cauldron was a very clever reference to a legend and quite enjoyed it. Alina. From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Jul 9 22:13:31 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 22:13:31 -0000 Subject: COS musings/questions (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105325 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "leb2323" wrote: leb: > In ch 17 The Heir of Slytherin -- > Harry is fighting the basilisk and the fang pierces him just above > the elbow. Isn't this the exact same spot that Wormtail cuts him to > get the blood for the ritual in GoF? I wonder if there is any > significance to that. Geoff: Being pedantic, not quite the same place. 'But as warm blood drenched Harry's arms, he felt a searing pain just above his elbow. One long, poisonous fang was sinking deper and deepre into his arm....' (COS "The Heir of Slytherin" p.236 UK edition) '"B-blood of the enemy.... forcibly taken.... you will.... resurrect your foe." Harry could do nothing to prevent it, he was tied too tightly.... squinting down, struggling hopelessly at the ropes binding him, he saw the shining silver dagger shaking in Wormtail's remaining hand. He felt its point penetrate the crook of his right arm...' (GOF "Flesh,Blood and Bone" p.557 UK edition) The basilisk's wound was higher than Wormtail's. From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Jul 9 22:18:10 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 22:18:10 -0000 Subject: just a couple of thoughts about Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105326 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "heynorty" wrote: heynorty: > Another thing, I noticed--is how little Ron and Harry ever talk about > girls. I mean really talk about girls, and not asking one or other > where Hermione is. He is different from his peer group in that regard > as well. Geoff: I wouldn't agree. Having just been away with two youth weekends from my church, eavesdropping on the boys' conversation has found it to be mainly football, Playstations and other guy things. And these are 13- 15 year olds, same sort of age range as we've seen Harry go through. From tzakis1225 at netzero.com Fri Jul 9 22:20:00 2004 From: tzakis1225 at netzero.com (demetra1225) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 22:20:00 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105327 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: [snip] I adore Harry [yeah, I know, you're rolling your eyes :-)]. > I don't make excuses for everything he does--I'm not a BLIND follower- > -but I really identify with Harry. And Harry WANTS Sirius in his > life. I empathize w/ Harry's feelings. Demetra: Me too. I guess its the mom in me, but I wish I could just give Harry a big,long hug. SSSusan: > But lest you all think I like *everybody*, I really don't like Luna > at all! [ducks] Demetra: :) I actually like Luna. She's so wonderfully flaky, and doesn't care one bit if everyone thinks she's cracked. She's just gonna keep on talking about snorckacks and nargles. I often say that if I could go back and change one thing about my life when I was younger, I would not have wasted so much time worrying about what other people thought of me. Plus, Luna made Harry feel better when they had their talk at the end of OotP- something that no one else had been able to do. And lest you think that I like *everyone*, I'll go on record saying that I can't stand Tonks! > SSSusan: [snip] By your definitions & examples, I fit into the Snape-aholic > camp because I want to know more...desperately! I sit up straighter > when I hit a chapter w/ Severus in it. But yet I engage in what you > would possibly call ASA behavior, too, at times. I don't think it > has to be an either/or. It would only be an either/or if the Snape- > aholics were Snape-apologists. Demetra: Now I'm having an identity crisis!! I think I'm a Snape-aholic, but I'm not sure if I'm a Snape-apologist. I love his character, I think there are a lot of layers yet to be uncovered about Snape. I also think his behaviour is abominable, at times. I think he really enjoys verbally lacerating someone he dislikes. However, I also believe that he needs to act like he hates Harry & the other Gryffindors, he needs to act like he favors Slytherins (esp. Malfoy) and he needs to appear like he's on the side of the DE's. That is what a spy has to do. Remember what Quirrell said about Snape- he makes it easy for people to think he's the bad guy, flitting around like an overgrown bat. As far as JKR's quotes go, if in the end, we find out that Snape truly was on Voldemort's side all along, or he returns to LV's side in some future book, I will be extremely disappointed. I respect Snape because he realized he was on the wrong side and is attempting to right that wrong. Plus, I'm old enough to realize that just because someone has a prickly exterior doesn't mean there is no good in them. If we find out in the end that Snape really was a bad guy all along, he would no longer be such a fascinating character to me. And I'll even turn in my Snape-aholic badge! Won't go so far as to call Sirius cuddly, though. Now Lupin, mmmmmm, yes Demetra From koo at uk.ibm.com Fri Jul 9 22:23:47 2004 From: koo at uk.ibm.com (Daniel A Koo Mo Shan) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 23:23:47 +0100 Subject: Daniel A Koo Mo Shan/UK/IBM is out of the office. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105328 I will be out of the office starting 09/07/2004 and will not return until 19/07/2004. I am out of the office until the 19/07/2004 For any assistance please contact the IBM Unix software support team on 0870 010 1952, and quote the pmr number From anmsmom333 at cox.net Fri Jul 9 22:23:07 2004 From: anmsmom333 at cox.net (Theresa) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 22:23:07 -0000 Subject: Why do we always gang up on Sirius? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105329 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > Theresa wrote: > > > But I do think he was not the innocent victim all the time and > > > can be nasty too - he wanted to feed Sirius' soul to the > > > dementors afterall. > > (snip) > > > James is as bad as Sirius in the pensieve scene and in my > > > opinion worse in some ways. > > (snip) > > > Anyway, I guess my point is...I think both James and Sirius, were > > > cocky pinheads but basically loveable loyal good-hearted > > > pinheads. > > > Val: > > Ok, I have to strongly support that. Why is everyone so against > > Sirius? Even after we have seen that James is the more arrogant, > > bullying, etc, one of them. > > > > Yeah, James went to save Snape but I really doubt he did it FOR > > Snape, I think he did it to save Sirius's and Remus's behinds, > > think of how much trouble they would have been in! And Remus would > > never be able to live with it, I think that was James's motivation > > rather than Snape. > > > I think people aren't blaming James as much as Sirius in the > > Pensieve scene because, well, he's dead and deserves some respect. > > If I wasn't in denial, I'd say so is Sirius, doesn't he deserve > > some respect? > > > > Anyways, my point is: Sirius is not a bad person, he's not evil and > > I really wish people here would stop portaying him as a bad guy > > most of the time... > > > SSSusan: > I don't think "everyone" *is* against Sirius or portraying him as a > bad guy most of the time at all. I don't see why pointing out a > problem, flaw, arrogance, whatever you want to call it, with Sirius > is necessarily being "against" him or portraying him as a bad guy. > Lots of us have been arguing for quite some time that these > characters are GREY and complex. It's easy to "like" a character and > still see his failings. > > I also don't see how James comes out as MORE arrogant and bullying > than Sirius. In THIS scene, perhaps. Overall? No. Whatever the > motivation for it, James stopped Snape; Sirius did not. James also > managed to do *something* to win Lily over, and from what we see in > the Penseive scene, I think he'd have had to do a nearly complete 180 > in some areas to convince her he was worthy. > > Siriusly Snapey Susan Theresa again: BTW I love your signature Susan. I too actually like Snape AND Sirius (Remus too). I find those three fascinating and Luna too. Just watch there is something really important about that girl. I think what I was trying to say is that when people look at the pensieve scene in OotP and remember the prank, many folks say 'bad bad Sirius, no cookie for you' but forget there were others being just as naughty. I always imagined Snape was an ornery cuss while at school so his actions in the scene didn't surprise me. Sirius is impulsive and rather arrogant at times. So he too didn't surprise me in that scene. James, however, for me was a shock. I thought he was the guy everyone loved (except Snape), yet it was Sirius (and to a small degree Snape) folks were branding as the troublemaking bully. I long for the answer to the Prank and really will not be upset if Sirius was just having one of those 'stupid brain not engaged moments'. I am curious as to whether or not James was present (they were supposedly nearly always together) when Sirius mentioned the willow to Snape. And I too think he saved him more to keep Sirius out of trouble and Remus from becoming a murdering beast. (More so the latter, as the consequences would be worse for Remus.) Also, I agree he must have done some changes to his personality for Lily to have married him. I also would love to know more on Snape and unlike JKR, I would have dinner with him just to chat and find out more about what makes him tick. Of course I would gladly have dinner with any of the HP characters if possible to ask questions. Most especially any of the marauders (except maybe Peter), Snape, Luna or the trio. Anyway, I still love these characters, flaws and all. I was just curious as to why it seemed like we were not pointing out James' flaws too. Of course I have been off this list for a while until RL calmed a little and I had time to read some more so maybe everyone bashed James already and it was Sirius' turn. As long as we leave Remus alone I'll be happy and won't throw tomatoes. (just kidding, I think the diverse opinions on this list of the books and characters are what makes this a fun group - at least we nearly always stay civil - I have seen many groups that do not always try to maintain proper decent interactions and I think it is pleasant here.) Theresa From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 22:30:28 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 22:30:28 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes (or Snape-aholics and Siriophiles) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105330 snip. Lisa: snip. > On the other hand, I've never been terribly convinced by the > whole "Snape treats Harry and/or Neville badly as part of his act as > a spy" theory. From the point of view of Voldemort and his > supporters, Snape is supposedly on their side, but playing a role as > a Dumbledore supporter, or at the least playing a role as just > another Hogwarts professor. If that is the case, wouldn't he be > more convincing in either of these roles if he wasn't so > obviously "against" the "Boy Who Lived"? Is he trying to convince > whatever Death Eaters are supposedly keeping tabs on his behavior in > his classroom (and even in one-on-one Occlumency lessons?) that he's > a *bad* spy, that he's giving Dumbledore reason to doubt him? I > most definitely think there is more to Snape than we know, and I'm > curious as to what we'll find out in future books, but this is one > explanation for his behavior that still doesn't make much sense to > me. Clarification/explanation of it is most welcome. > > Lisa Hi, Lisa! I am also not terribly convinced by "this is just an act to keep the cover" theory for different reasons. First of all, as I posted earlier I am not entirely convinced that Snape went back to spying. At the most, I may agree that he is spying unconventionally - either using Occlumency on Malfoy (till he got in Azkaban, of course), or something else. Furthermore, when in OoP they say something to the effect that he was giving the report (I am sorry, posting from work, don't have the book with me again.), I am almost positive that we are due for surprise in the next books and this spy is somebody else, not Snape. I have no clue, who this person is though. So, if Snape did not go back to Voldemort, what cover does he has to maintain? Assuming for the sake of argument that he went back to Voldemort, I am also not quite sure how it will blew his cover if he will be (oh, horror :)) ... decent to Harry? I agree with you - it will be much better cover for him to be ...nice to Harry (well, not nice, but at least not abusive) and at the same time convince Voldemort that this is just a pretence. Crouch!Moody ... anyone? He pretended to be kind and decent human being, while in fact working for Voldie. Yes, I think if Snape needed any cover, that would be the most effective one. Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 22:33:53 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 22:33:53 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105331 SNIP. > Demetra wrote : > Now I'm having an identity crisis!! I think I'm a Snape-aholic, but > I'm not sure if I'm a Snape-apologist. I love his character, I think > there are a lot of layers yet to be uncovered about Snape. I also > think his behaviour is abominable, at times. I think he really > enjoys verbally lacerating someone he dislikes. However, I also > believe that he needs to act like he hates Harry & the other > Gryffindors, he needs to act like he favors Slytherins (esp. Malfoy) > and he needs to appear like he's on the side of the DE's. That is > what a spy has to do. Remember what Quirrell said about Snape- he > makes it easy for people to think he's the bad guy, flitting around > like an overgrown bat. > Alla: Hi, Demetra. I just replied to the post with similar topic, so maybe you'll give me some explanations. (You don't have to, of course, but I honestly want to know. :)Why does Snape need to act as he hates Harry,when in fact it is more effective to do what Crouch!Moody did? If people think that he is the bad guy, doesn't it make them more doubtful of them and thinking that he is a Voldemort!agent all along? > From donpietro69 at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 9 20:20:18 2004 From: donpietro69 at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Lee=20Moyo?=) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 21:20:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Joke Shop Weapons??? Setting up store front In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040709202018.86881.qmail@web25107.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105332 Pam wrote: Just finished re-reading GoF, and the thought struck me: could F & G's new joke shop at Diagon Alley be a kind of headquarters for devising weapons to fight DE's & LV? Imagine the possibilities: Mssrs. Crabbe & Goyle reaching for their wands and pulling out haddocks and parrots...DD turning into a canary at the last moment...DE's sinking into a portable swamp...fancy fireworks as a diversionary tactic? Gwen wrote: I agree. I don't think that Fred's and George's considerable talents are there just for the purpose of comic relief. Even Hermione thought their "headless hats" were a good bit of magic. I suspect that some of their merchandise will play a significant part in the next two books. vmonte responds: What if Honeydukes moves to a larger location and Fred & George end up setting up their business at the old site? They would then have direct access to the school. Lee: I totally agree with that because they really want to join the OoP to fight. We know they are really talented and many have remarked on that they're just a bit naughty. And we know that DD has a soft spot for mischievous people. Plus they are not afraid of anything, which will probably be an asset to large extent, until one of them gets hurt. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 9 22:41:30 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 22:41:30 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105333 SSSusan previously: > > But lest you all think I like *everybody*, I really don't like > > Luna at all! [ducks] Demetra: > :) I actually like Luna. She's so wonderfully flaky, and > doesn't care one bit if everyone thinks she's cracked. She's just > gonna keep on talking about snorckacks and nargles. I often say > that if I could go back and change one thing about my life when I > was younger, I would not have wasted so much time worrying about > what other people thought of me. SSSusan: And a good thing to want to change, that! I do appreciate her individualism, just don't like all the "ooooh-y" ethereal stuff. Demetra: > Plus, Luna made Harry feel better when they had their talk at the > end of OotP- something that no one else had been able to do. SSSusan: That would be the *biggest* incentive to change my mind about her. I'm just not there yet! We'll see what happens in 6 & 7. Demetra: > And lest you think that I like *everyone*, I'll go on record > saying that I can't stand Tonks! SSSusan: Hee. I find her amusing, but she's not my fav either. :-) SSSusan before: >>> By your [Kneasy's] definitions & examples, I fit into the Snape- aholic camp because I want to know more...desperately! I sit up straighter when I hit a chapter w/ Severus in it. But yet I engage in what you would possibly call ASA behavior, too, at times. I don't think it has to be an either/or. It would only be an either/or if the Snape-aholics were Snape-apologists.<<< Demetra: > Now I'm having an identity crisis!! I think I'm a Snape-aholic, > but I'm not sure if I'm a Snape-apologist. I love his character, I > think there are a lot of layers yet to be uncovered about Snape. > I also think his behaviour is abominable, at times. I think he > really enjoys verbally lacerating someone he dislikes. However, I > also believe that he needs to act like he hates Harry & the other > Gryffindors, he needs to act like he favors Slytherins (esp. > Malfoy) and he needs to appear like he's on the side of the DE's. > That is what a spy has to do. Remember what Quirrell said about > Snape- he makes it easy for people to think he's the bad guy, > flitting around like an overgrown bat. SSSusan again: Exactly! That's my point! I don't think Snape-aholics are made up of only Snape-apologists. I think one can be a Snape-aholic and still argue vehemently at times along the lines that ASAers would argue. I know I bash him at times, yet I still consider myself a Snape-aholic...but NOT a Snape-apologist. Demetra: > As far as JKR's quotes go, if in the end, we find out that Snape > truly was on Voldemort's side all along, or he returns to LV's > side in some future book, I will be extremely disappointed. SSSusan: Moi, aussi. Demetra: > Won't go so far as to call Sirius cuddly, though. > Now Lupin, mmmmmm, yes SSSusan: I also replied to Kneasy's post that, while a fan of Sirius, I'd not call him cuddly. Lupin? Hmmmm. Hadn't considered it, but now that you mention it...?? SIRIUSLY SNAPEY Susan...who's just *so* proud of her name today. :- ) I love 'em both, but I won't apologize away all of either one's behavior. From gelite67 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 21:19:56 2004 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 21:19:56 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's wand Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105334 Did Hagrid get the official OK to practice magic after he was cleared of the charge of opening the COS? Or is he still forced to use his "umbrella?" Angie From gelite67 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 21:24:23 2004 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 21:24:23 -0000 Subject: Harry's Pensieve Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105335 Could Dumbledore would give Harry his own pensieve and extract Harry's latent memories from his first year? I don't know how the infant brain processes information, but I personally believe that everything we see and hear is stored in our brains, if we could only access it. This way, instead of hearing how much his parents loved him, Harry would see and feel it for himself. And he would know the truth about how his mother died, anyway. Angie From gelite67 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 21:27:32 2004 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 21:27:32 -0000 Subject: Podmore connection? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105336 I don't know if it is significant, but the leader of the Headless Hunt was named Sir Patrick Delany-Podmore (COS), and one of Dumbledore's supporters is Sturgis Podmore(OOP). Just wondering if anyone else noticed that or thought it was relevant. Angie From gelite67 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 21:41:35 2004 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 21:41:35 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's possessions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105337 It may be a red herring, but in one of the books, doesn't Draco brag about the Dark objects his father has hidden? And in the COS, Mr. Borgin, the owner of Flourish and Blotts, mutters that Lucius hadn't sold him half of what he has hidden. I wonder how Lucius gained possession of Voldemort's diary in the first place. If he got it from Voldemort, who knows what other things of Voldemort's Lucius has hidden? Does this not suggest that Lucius is VERY close to Voldemort? I think it lends support to the theory that had Ginny died, Voldemort himself, not Tom Riddle, would have been made stronger. I don't see how Lucius would have gotten the diary from Tom and I can't see why Lucius would be motivated to help Tom as opposed to Voldemort. Angie From gelite67 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 21:44:53 2004 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 21:44:53 -0000 Subject: HBP of What? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105338 Probably a stupid question. I've read all of the books, and I don't remember any references to royalty pertaining to the wizard world. So what can the HBP be "prince" of? Something in the Muggle world? Angie From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Fri Jul 9 22:11:07 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 22:11:07 -0000 Subject: The Mirror and the Heart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105339 > > SSSusan: > > I remember this post!! And I also remember that I disagreed w/ you > > then...and still do. > Kneasy: > Well, we can argue about this until the cows come home, but the fact > of the matter is that Quirrell did not want to use the Stone - that's made quite clear in canon. Me, Aggie: I'm sorry but I have to disagree with the statement that Quirrell didn't want to use the stone. . . Forgive me if i'm wrong but hasn't Quirrell got a Voldemort growing out the back of his head?! I would say that for Voldy to return using the stone Quirrell WOULD have to have used it. Loving the mirror ideas being thrown around! We know from JKR herself that Sirius's mirror plays an important future role. From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Fri Jul 9 22:23:13 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 22:23:13 -0000 Subject: COS musings/questions (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105340 Leb: I know and will readily admit right off the bat that this is > farfetched, but how widespread is the 'help will be given' part of > this advice. When I read this part I immediately thought of the > scene in OOtP where Harry is desperately trying to remember something > in one of his OWLs, silently asks for help, and ends up reading > either Lavender or Parvati's mind to get his answer. Could this be > some sort of charm over the school (kind of like what makes the room > of requirement work!) where if you sincerely ask for help it comes to you. Me, Aggie: I took this event to mean that the occlumency lessons had enabled him to tap into his legilimency skills. I think that when Voldy cursed Harry and inadvertently passed on his parselmouth abilities, he also passed on these valuable/invaluable 'talents'! As these, like parseltongue, are considered a rarity in WW. Leb: In a later book the sword of Gryffindor is displayed in a glass case > in DD's office. Was the sword always on display there or did Harry > summon it out of thin air when he literally pulled it out of the hat in CoS and now DD has it encased as an heirloom keepsake. Since the hat and the sword both belonged to Godric then it could be plausible that it materialized from nowhere instead of being summoned from DD's office. Me, Aggie: I agree, I think that the sword has only been in DD's office SINCE CoS. I believe that it did not 'exist' before Harry pulled it out of the hat. Just my tuppence worth. ;o) From silvr23dragon at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 22:24:48 2004 From: silvr23dragon at yahoo.com (Mary Olearchik) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:24:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: just a couple of thoughts about Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040709222448.47089.qmail@web42003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105341 > Geoff: > I wouldn't agree. Having just been away with two > youth weekends from > my church, eavesdropping on the boys' conversation > has found it to be > mainly football, Playstations and other guy things. > And these are 13- > 15 year olds, same sort of age range as we've seen > Harry go through. > > I have to agree with you Geoff. It has been my experience that boys don't tend to notice girls (who are usually trying to get their attention) until the later teens (17 maybe). I feel like the image is good, the girls are showing interest earlier than the guys, which shows the maybe stereotypical thought that girls just mature faster than guys do, and that Harry is just one of those guys. SilverD __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 9 22:48:14 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 22:48:14 -0000 Subject: Why do we always gang up on Sirius? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105342 SSSusan previously: > > I don't think "everyone" *is* against Sirius or portraying him > > as a bad guy most of the time at all. Theresa again: > BTW I love your signature Susan. I too actually like Snape AND > Sirius (Remus too). I find those three fascinating and Luna too. > Just watch there is something really important about that girl. SSSusan: Thanks! ;-) I'm *working* on my impression of Luna, but I'm with you on the other three. Theresa: > I think what I was trying to say is that when people look at the > pensieve scene in OotP and remember the prank, many folks say 'bad > bad Sirius, no cookie for you' but forget there were others being > just as naughty. SSSusan: LOL! Point taken. Theresa: > I also would love to know more on Snape and unlike JKR, I would > have dinner with him just to chat and find out more about what > makes him tick. SSSusan: You must be a Gryffindor, because that seems very BRAVE to me. I'm more of a Ravenclaw, I suppose, and I couldn't imagine doing this. (Though having dinner with Alan Rickman....) Theresa: > Anyway, I still love these characters, flaws and all. I was just > curious as to why it seemed like we were not pointing out James' > flaws too. Of course I have been off this list for a while until > RL calmed a little and I had time to read some more so maybe > everyone bashed James already and it was Sirius' turn. SSSusan: Well, I've been here only about 14 months or so, but I don't recall much James-bashing in that time, so you may have a point there. I too love them, flaws and all, and that was really my main point. :-) Siriusly Snapey Susan From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Fri Jul 9 22:26:17 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 18:26:17 -0400 Subject: COS musings Message-ID: <000e01c46603$c0fe68d0$61c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 105343 leb2323 "Does this mean that TR and LM were at school together? Why does Lucius have them and what else can we expect to see?" TR and LM couldn't possibly have been at Hogwarts together unless there IS a time shift involved. In COS which is supposed to be, what, 1992, TR/LV would be about 65 given that it chamber was opened 50 years before and Tom in the diary was about 15...in OotP, which would be 1995, LM is stated in the Daily Prophet as being 41. If we take all this stuff at face value. Cathy - who only knows facts and won't joke about who the HBP is again, I swear [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From plinker at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 22:32:14 2004 From: plinker at yahoo.com (Bill) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:32:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HBP & the Weasleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040709223214.95120.qmail@web41214.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105344 If the Weasleys are the true heirs, wouldn't the oldest son be the one in line, instead of Ron or even Percy ? caspenzoe wrote:> Valky: > Agreed, though I still have somewhat of a feeling that the Half > Blood intimation runs deeper than just a champion of the cause. > Though, indeed Arthur is a champion of the cause. > > Genma again: > > Now that we have ourselves a "King Arthur of the halfbloods," we > > would need our prince. I can't speculate as to this... perhaps > Ron or Percy? I don't know. > > > > Valky again: > Now, why did YOU say Ron first? > We could go on for a year considering which boy and why. Which could > be really fun and illuminating, for us to do. So, all we need is a > few more of us interested in examining the Weasleys as possible WW > royalty. > Any takers? > > (Is there anyone who remembers the thread on this list some time ago > that investigated this very theme long before the HBP title was > released. As I recall it had some base footing in the ponderings of > who was Gryffindors Heir.) Just some a thoughts along these lines: Is the "Weasley is Our King!" anthem running through OOTP a really obvious and broad JKR hint at royal blood in the Weasley line - and such blood specifically deposited in Ron - the youngest son? And don't we know that this anthem refers to Ron and not another of the Weasley brothers immediately? And how do we know it? There have been Weasely players on the Gryffindor Quidditch team throughout the books after all. Is Ginny the first female Weasley in generations because they've finally produced a true "King," and thus no further sons are needed? Also, don't you love the irony? All along, Harry has been the seeming leader of our heoric trio, with Ron stepping into the the background, playing the knight. But it's Ron who really calls the plays in SS, and practically orders Harry to go on while sacrificing himself (as in some traditions, pagan, neo-pagan and Christian are believed to be born to do). Ron, very Dumbledor-like really, is the better strategist, the better chess player, and the one Hermione (Ms. Smartie-pants that she is) seems to be falling for consciously (?) or not. Other ironies: the Weasley's poverty - a very "Christian" indication of nobility; and, along the same lines Arthur Weasley's broadness of love which includes the ordinary Muggle-born. Perhaps Dumbledore's real agenda in all this is to restore the once and future Kingly and Gryffindor line of Weasley to leadership over the more grasping Slytherin and Slytherin-controlled current Wizard leadership. Maybe he's ultimately a true servant of the house of Weasley? From hallisallimalli at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 22:48:10 2004 From: hallisallimalli at yahoo.com (halli) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 22:48:10 -0000 Subject: Wands - again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105345 > Now KB > How could Ollivander know who had the "brother" wand if Tom Riddle bought > it??? I didn't think it was universal knowledge that Tom Riddle was LV. (It > sure would have been a different story if Harry and Ginny had known it ahead > of time!) > > Does that mean that LV, not 11-year-old Tom, bought the "brother" wand? > Which would mean that Mr. Ollivander knew he was selling a wand to do > "terrible...but great" things, in spite of his protestation? Or did Mr. > Ollivander know somehow that Tom evolved into LV? halli: Don't want to butt in or anything, but I don't think Ollivander actually HAD to know it was LV who had the other wand. All he had to know was that TR bought the wand with Fawkes' feather in it, and that Harry bought the second one, and that DD would want to know. Of course, he could have known, because he could link two and two together, with his extraordinary memory of the wands he's sold and their owners. From claphamsubwarden at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 22:50:55 2004 From: claphamsubwarden at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 22:50:55 -0000 Subject: The HBP (or more likely How to Discredit all my future theorys!!) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105346 I apologise now for the absurdity of some of these suggestions but I believe that they some may contain a small kernel of truth. 1. (sensible) The HBP is Tom Riddle (not necessairly Voldemort but Tom Riddle - a past version or Harry learns more about Head Boy Riddle or something else.) 2. (been watching too much Star Wars) Harry uses this part of Tom Riddle to defeat Voldemort eventually. Not necessarily the way Luke Skywalker does, (by appealing to the good left in Voldemort but through the wisdom of Sun Tzu, "Know your enemy and know yourself and may a thousand victories be yours".) 3. (not likely) Harry defeats Voldemort in Book 6 or earlyish in Book 7 and the rest of the story is about the fallout/reprisals of the Dark Lord's death. 4. (possible) Dumbledore is the HBP. We know nothing of his parentage and he played a major part in CoS, getting suspended and the whole loyalty thing. Feel free to rip these possibilities to shreds but I thought they had to be suggested!! Chris http://groups.yahoo.com/group/merlin_legacy From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 23:21:39 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 23:21:39 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105347 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gelite67" wrote: > Did Hagrid get the official OK to practice magic after he was cleared > of the charge of opening the COS? Or is he still forced to use > his "umbrella?" > > Angie Asian_lovr2: I think the key to your question is the "Offical OK". Hagrid has gotten an UNofficial OK from Dumbledore to use magic in his association with the school. And the people who know Hagrid well have alway conviniently looked the other way when he performed magic. But in OotP the Ministry was not in such a friendly mood and they would have seized any excuse to persecute some one close to Dumbledore. Hagrid says as much when he tells Harry/Ron/Hermione about his visit to the giants. I think what has to happen, and I am confident that NOW it will finally happen, is that the Ministry has to issue an official ruling seting aside or reversing Hagrid's previous conviction. Then Hagrid can buy a new wand, and be a full unrestricted wizard. I do not think Hagrid needs to go back to school. He has training up through 3rd year which grounds him in the basics, and he has 50 years experience working at the best wizard's school in Europe. I think that is sufficient to qualify him as a wizard. I believe that OWLs and NEWT do not certify YOU as a wizard, they certify your SKILLS as as wizard, and therefore are needed by prospective employers to determine job qualifications, but NOT required by law to be a fully-fledged wizard. So, simply being over the age of majority and not having any restrictions on your ability to do magic is sufficient to be a wizard. Just my opinion. Steve/asian_lovr2 From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Jul 9 23:55:26 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 23:55:26 -0000 Subject: The Mirror and the Heart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105348 SSSusan: > I really think it was all a set-up by DD, but for a different > purpose than you're putting forth. I think DD knew he was going to > use the mirror as the final protection for the Stone, and I believe > those 7 tasks were set up as *sort of* a protection but also as a > testing ground for Harry--to test his character, his determination, > and his talents & abilities. Showing the mirror to Harry early > allowed him to explain it to Harry; then he could test his mettle, > to see just what Harry was made of when the stone was on the line. > > BTW, I don't think Harry's deepest desire was to get out of there at > that moment. I don't think he was focusing on that *yet*. I think > his deepest desire was truly to STOP Q!V, and THIS is precisely what > DD was testing in Harry. WOULD his deepest desire be to split, or > would it be (as DD suspected & hoped) to stop Q!V and protect the > stone? Jen: That seems a little dicey on Dumbledore's part, though. If there was a slip-up of any kind, he could lose the one and only person who can stop Voldemort from world domination, or UK domination at any rate ;). I'm not convinced this was all a set-up by DD, including Harry finding the mirror in the first place. I think Harry found the mirror because he has a penchant for wandering around Hogwarts (just like Snape--they do have something in common!) and Dumbledore just didn't stop him when he found it. In fact, DD didn't intercede until Harry started to show signs of 'wasting away' in front of it. That seems to follow his choice criteria--Dumbledore allows Harry to explore the mirror, but when he sees that Harry isn't moving on, DD steps in to give him some vital information and requests he not go looking for the mirror when it's moved. If allDumbledore wanted to do was show Harry the mirror and how it works, one evening would cover it. But like Susan said, Dumbledore was probably overjoyed to find that Harry could get the stone from the mirror, proving he is capable of acting selflessly in the face of Evil. This brings up to the question again of how far Dumbledore is willing to go for his Plan to work out. I tend to think he draws the line at actively putting Harry or any other student in harm's way if he can help it. Jen From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Jul 10 00:12:10 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 00:12:10 -0000 Subject: HBP & the Weasleys In-Reply-To: <20040709223214.95120.qmail@web41214.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105349 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bill wrote: > If the Weasleys are the true heirs, wouldn't the oldest son be the one in line, instead of Ron or even Percy ? > It's a fine old fairy tale tradition that the youngest prince, previously overshadowed by his brothers, is the one to save the kingdom and inherit the throne after his brothers have all failed. There are also cultures, such as the Amish, in which the youngest son inherits the land. Pippin From pegasus0580 at yahoo.ca Sat Jul 10 00:21:57 2004 From: pegasus0580 at yahoo.ca (Sharlene) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 00:21:57 -0000 Subject: Aunt Petunia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105350 "Chris"...> wrote: I also think that no other Muggle-born witch/wizard has a sibling other that Lily Evans.< Well there's Colin and Dennis Creevey who are both in Hogwarts and are Muggle-born brothers. "Chris"...> wrote: The second question has a bit more of a definite answer, we know that Hermione has no brothers/sisters unless she has failed to mention them.(Unlikely esp. as her parents are both dentists, therefore v.busy). Dean is not known well enough by Harry to know the answer, though considering they are now in 5th year and junior Thomas would have probably started Hogwarts by now.< And about Hermione...I've heard she has a younger sister, who's not a witch. Maybe because she is too young, or just not one--since she's not in Hogwarts. :) Sharlene From strawberry at jamm.com Sat Jul 10 00:23:38 2004 From: strawberry at jamm.com (Jenni A.M. Merrifield) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 00:23:38 -0000 Subject: The Last Word? (Was: My Heart of It All Theory) In-Reply-To: <00f001c4629e$e4f60620$3a806750@takun> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105351 "fridwulfa hagrid" wrote: [...snip...] > The only thing we know for sure is that the last word > will be "scar", but that's all. [...snip...] Jenni asks: I hadn't heard this tidbit before. Could you tell me when and where JKR said that "scar" was the last word in the last book? Thanks! Jenni A. M. Merrifield -=> strawberryJAMM <=- From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sat Jul 10 00:29:28 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 00:29:28 -0000 Subject: The Mirror and the Heart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105352 SSSusan: >> I really think it was all a set-up by DD, but for a different purpose than you're putting forth. I think DD knew he was going to use the mirror as the final protection for the Stone, and I believe those 7 tasks were set up as *sort of* a protection but also as a testing ground for Harry--to test his character, his determination, and his talents & abilities. Showing the mirror to Harry early allowed him to explain it to Harry; then he could test his mettle, to see just what Harry was made of when the stone was on the line. BTW, I don't think Harry's deepest desire was to get out of there at that moment. I don't think he was focusing on that *yet*. I think his deepest desire was truly to STOP Q!V, and THIS is precisely what DD was testing in Harry. WOULD his deepest desire be to split, or would it be (as DD suspected & hoped) to stop Q!V and protect the stone? Jen: > That seems a little dicey on Dumbledore's part, though. If > there was a slip-up of any kind, he could lose the one and only > person who can stop Voldemort from world domination, or UK > domination at any rate ;). > > I'm not convinced this was all a set-up by DD, including Harry > finding the mirror in the first place. I think Harry found the > mirror because he has a penchant for wandering around Hogwarts > (just > like Snape--they do have something in common!) and > Dumbledore just didn't stop him when he found it. In fact, DD > didn't intercede until Harry started to show signs of 'wasting > away' in front of it. SSSusan: I guess I see it as DD keeping a close enough eye on things (from his mysterious, behind-the-scenes-SOMEHOW-seeing-everything position) that he [or his designate--McG? Snape?] would have stepped in if Harry got into too much trouble. Maybe that's making DD out to be too omnipresent, but I like the story. :-) Ah, I'm probably wrong, but it's still fun. Siriusly Snapey Susan From yutu75es at yahoo.es Sat Jul 10 00:39:29 2004 From: yutu75es at yahoo.es (fridwulfa hagrid) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 02:39:29 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Last Word? (Was: My Heart of It All Theory) References: Message-ID: <01f801c46616$5eeef9d0$f5256750@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 105353 > Jenni asks: > > I hadn't heard this tidbit before. Could you tell me when and > where JKR said that "scar" was the last word in the last book? > > And Fridwulfa oblidgingly responds: In plotting Harry's journey she has already completed a draft of the final chapter of the last book. "I constantly rewrite," she says. "At the moment, the last word is 'scar.'" This is from an interview for People Magazine, 31 dec. 1999. You can find the whole text here: http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1999/1299-people.html Cheers, Fridwulfa From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 00:46:53 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 00:46:53 -0000 Subject: 24 hours again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105354 vmonte wrote: > Speaking of the Hog's Head, the Lexicon has some interesting thoughts about Aberforth. Is he really the guy that runs the bar at the HH? Harry recognizes the bartender. Is it because of Moody's Order photograph? Carol responds: There's no question in my mind that the bartender is Aberforth. The goat connection is a giveaway. I don't think it's the Order photo so much as a vague resemblance to Dumbledore that makes Harry think the bartender looks familiar. vmonte wrote: MM & DD were/are both Transiguration teachers but have yet to use those skills. Or have they? Could Aberforth be DD? Carol: Unless DD is lying to us, he has a brother named Aberforth. I don't think that Aberforth is DD. As for Transfiguration skills, we've seen McGonagall turn herself into a cat, a skill that will surely come in handy at some point. And Dumbledore can somehow make himself invisible without an invisibility cloak. That's more likely to involve Transfiguration than time manipulation, in my view. I agree that we've by no means seen all that these two can do and it's about time that JKR showed us more. vmonte wrote: Was the > night of the OWLS exam the night of Sirius's prank? Harry recalls > that Lupin was looking strange in the penseive memory, and wondered > if the full moon was approaching--was he right? > Carol responds: It wasn't a full moon. Sirius (rather thoughtlessly) says that he wishes it were. Remus clearly doesn't. "'I'm bored,' said Sirius. 'Wish it was full moon.' "'You might,'" said Lupin darkly from behind his book." ("You" ought to be in italics for emphasis. BTW, it's interesting that the narrator refers to Lupin by his last name (and less surprisingly, Snape), but James and Sirius by their first names. Interesting how Harry's POV colors even the names of the characters. As for when the Prank took place, Snape says that Sirius was sixteen at the time. Since Snape isn't likely to know the exact date of Sirius's birthday, the Prank probably occurred in their sixth year, the year associated with age sixteen. Also the Pensieve scene takes place during O.W.L.s, very near the end of the fifth year. They haven't yet taken their Transfiguration exam (which Remus is studying for), but otherwise, they appear to be nearly done with their fifth year. It seems probable that the Prank occurs after they've returned the next year. Just when is impossible to say on the basis of our limited evidence. vmonte wrote: > Ron is also going to have new memories to explore in the next book. > The brain has to be someone important to be kept at the DoM. Will Ron put these memories in a penseive for Harry and > Hermione to look at? Carol responds: There's no evidence (yet) that Ron has anyone else's memories from the brain attack. Madam Pomfrey has done her best to cure any mental injuries he may have received, as well as the welts on Ron's arm. But even if he does have memories that aren't his (rather like Harry--in fact, too much like Harry for it to be likely), Ron doesn't have the skill to remove memories from his head and put them in a Pensieve. So far as we've seen, only two highly skilled wizards, both adults, have done so--Snape and Dumbledore. As I said in an earlier post, you almost certainly need to know occlumency to remove your own thoughts and memories. And you'd probably need to be a Legilmens to remove them from someone else's mind. Maybe you couldn't even then. Carol From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 00:50:14 2004 From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (Ms Mo Me) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:50:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Thestrals and Quirrels Death In-Reply-To: <1089412442.6939.44425.m24@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040710005014.55398.qmail@web13526.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105355 I apologise if this has been written before, but I can't remember ever hearing of it. We all know that if you wittness death, you can see thestrals. Harry can see the thestrals after Cedrics death. It has been debated before about seeing his parent's death, but not having full knowledge as a baby. Well, didn't Harry see Professor Quirrel die in PS/SS? So, Shouldn't he be able to see Thestrals by book 2? just a question. ~Mo __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 00:53:57 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 00:53:57 -0000 Subject: The Mirror and the Heart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105356 SSSusan: >> I really think it was all a set-up by DD, but for a different purpose than you're putting forth. I think DD knew he was going to use the mirror as the final protection for the Stone, and I believe those 7 tasks were set up as *sort of* a protection but also as a testing ground for Harry--to test his character, his determination, and his talents & abilities. Showing the mirror to Harry early allowed him to explain it to Harry; then he could test his mettle, to see just what Harry was made of when the stone was on the line. Jen: > That seems a little dicey on Dumbledore's part, though. If > there was a slip-up of any kind, he could lose the one and only > person who can stop Voldemort from world domination, or UK > domination at any rate ;). > SSSusan: I guess I see it as DD keeping a close enough eye on things (from his mysterious, behind-the-scenes-SOMEHOW-seeing-everything position) that he [or his designate--McG? Snape?] would have stepped in if Harry got into too much trouble. Maybe that's making DD out to be too omnipresent, but I like the story. :-) Neri: I tend to side with Jen on this. Here is what DD had to say about it in OotP (Ch. 37): ------------------------------------------------- 'And then . . . well, you will remember the events of your first year at Hogwarts quite as clearly as I do. You rose magnificently to the challenge that faced you and sooner ? much sooner ? than I had anticipated, you found yourself face to face with Voldemort. ------------------------------------------------ So unless you believe DD liesoutright, he didn't plan for Harry's confrontation with Voldy in SS/PS. Could he plan the only mirror/stone part without knowing about LV? I guess he could, if he thought Quirrell is trying to get the stone for himself, but personally I don't think so. Neri From tzakis1225 at netzero.com Sat Jul 10 00:54:18 2004 From: tzakis1225 at netzero.com (demetra1225) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 00:54:18 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105357 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > Hi, Demetra. > I just replied to the post with similar topic, so maybe you'll give > me some explanations. (You don't have to, of course, but I honestly > want to know. :)Why does Snape need to act as he hates Harry,when in > fact it is more effective to do what Crouch!Moody did? > > If people think that he is the bad guy, doesn't it make them more > doubtful of them and thinking that he is a Voldemort!agent all along? > > Demetra: I'm going to admit up front that I'm one of those people who takes a lot at face value when reading the books. I guess I just assumed that Snape was spying again since that was what he did before. Dumbledore says this in the pensieve scene of Karkaroff's trial in GoF. I assumed that DD asked him to go back to spying at the end of Gof. Then at the beginning of OotP, when Harry first arrives at Grimmauld Place everyone is waiting for Snape's report at the Order's meeting. Why so interested, if he wasn't coming with news about Voldemort and the DE's? What else could Snape be reporting on that would be of such interest? As far as Crouch!Moody, I think it was just a different situation. He was impersonating someone who was a friend of Dumbledore's. As such, he would be expected to act like someone on Dumbledore's side. If he acted like the DE that he was, he would be suspected immediately. Thus, he needed to be nice to Harry and the Gryffindors. I would imagine he was probably real nice to the other teachers, except Snape. He treats Snape exactly the way one would assume the real Moody would. He actually made an excellent mole. So I see it as actually the same situation, but in reverse. Both Snape and Crouch Jr. have/had a cover to keep and both do/did it by acting opposite to what they really are. Demetra (who hopes what she wrote isn't as convoluted as it seems to her) From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 00:58:42 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 00:58:42 -0000 Subject: Harry & Voldemort, wands and similarities/differences In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105358 "Diana" wrote: > > > Fourth, Harry kills Tom Riddle by 'killing' the diary. Carol responds: Harry killed Diary!Tom, true, but the real Tom Riddle lived past the age of sixteen, killing his father and grandparents and returning to Hogwarts as Head Boy before disappearing and beginning his quest for immortality. Even after he was completely unrecognizable because of his many transformation, he was both Voldemort and Tom Riddle. Even vaporization and the return to a new (but identical?) body thirteen years later didn't change the fact that Tom Riddle Sr. was his father ("bone of the father," etc.) So Tom Riddle wasn't dead because Diary!Tom was just a memory, not a real person. And yet, if he had somehow gained a real life by stealing Ginny's (without being destroyed by Harry), we'd have had two Riddle/Voldemorts to deal with, a boy and a man: "Voldemort is my past, present, and future." Would they have been allies or rivals? (I think Lord Voldemort would have murdered his own youthful self.) Carol From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sat Jul 10 01:01:32 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 01:01:32 -0000 Subject: The Mirror and the Heart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105359 SSSusan: >>> I really think it was all a set-up by DD, but for a different purpose than you're putting forth. I think DD knew he was going to use the mirror as the final protection for the Stone, and I believe those 7 tasks were set up as *sort of* a protection but also as a testing ground for Harry--to test his character, his determination, and his talents & abilities. Showing the mirror to Harry early allowed him to explain it to Harry; then he could test his mettle, to see just what Harry was made of when the stone was on the line. <<< Jen: > > That seems a little dicey on Dumbledore's part, though. If > > there was a slip-up of any kind, he could lose the one and only > > person who can stop Voldemort from world domination, or UK > > domination at any rate ;). > > SSSusan: > I guess I see it as DD keeping a close enough eye on things (from > his mysterious, behind-the-scenes-SOMEHOW-seeing-everything > position) that he [or his designate--McG? Snape?] would have > stepped in if Harry got into too much trouble. Maybe that's making > DD out to be too omnipresent, but I like the story. :-) > Neri: > I tend to side with Jen on this. Here is what DD had to say about > it in OotP (Ch. 37): > ------------------------------------------------- > 'And then . . . well, you will remember the events of your > first year at Hogwarts quite as clearly as I do. You rose > magnificently to the challenge that faced you and sooner ? much > sooner ? than I had anticipated, you found yourself face to face > with Voldemort. > ------------------------------------------------ > > So unless you believe DD liesoutright, he didn't plan for Harry's > confrontation with Voldy in SS/PS. Could he plan the only > mirror/stone part without knowing about LV? I guess he could, if > he thought Quirrell is trying to get the stone for himself, but > personally I don't think so. SSSusan: Aw, shucks. Two of my favorite posters don't like my theory. It's no wonder I don't do much theorizing. ;-) Actually, Neri, I had considered that speech of DD's. I think DD may have known something was up w/ QUIRRELL wanting to get the stone (for himself or for Voldy), but NOT that Voldy was attached, right there, to his head. I think that part *did* surprise him. But I think it's possible that he knew Quirrell was after the stone. As an aside, is it possible that Snape shared his suspicions of Quirrell with DD, or do you think Severus kept that to himself? If the latter, why is that? Siriusly Snapey Susan From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 01:13:41 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 01:13:41 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105360 > Demetra wrote: > I'm going to admit up front that I'm one of those people who takes a > lot at face value when reading the books. I guess I just assumed > that Snape was spying again since that was what he did before. > Dumbledore says this in the pensieve scene of Karkaroff's trial in > GoF. I assumed that DD asked him to go back to spying at the end of > Gof. Then at the beginning of OotP, when Harry first arrives at > Grimmauld Place everyone is waiting for Snape's report at the Order's > meeting. Why so interested, if he wasn't coming with news about > Voldemort and the DE's? What else could Snape be reporting on that > would be of such interest? Alla: I definitely take some things in the books at face value, but not everything. I think that Snape going back to Voldemort ashimself will be : too obvious and practically impossible. I believe that Voldemort referred to Snape, when he said "the one who left me forever" Now, Snape could have definitely reported news about Voldemort and DE, but how he obtained those news, that is a different story for me. Demetra: > As far as Crouch!Moody, I think it was just a different situation. > He was impersonating someone who was a friend of Dumbledore's. As > such, he would be expected to act like someone on Dumbledore's side. > If he acted like the DE that he was, he would be suspected > immediately. Thus, he needed to be nice to Harry and the > Gryffindors. I would imagine he was probably real nice to the other > teachers, except Snape. He treats Snape exactly the way one would > assume the real Moody would. He actually made an excellent mole. So > I see it as actually the same situation, but in reverse. Both Snape > and Crouch Jr. have/had a cover to keep and both do/did it by acting > opposite to what they really are. Alla: I am sorry to be annoying, but I am still confused. To make a long story short, I guess, my question will be: Who is expecting Snape to act unfair, abusive,(whatever) to Harry? If your answer is Voldemort, my next question will be Why? To me, Voldemort's logical expectations of Snape will be to pretend being Harry's friend (HAHAHA!) , get closer to him and then capture him , kill him, etc. What am I missing? Why Voldemort will expect Snape to be horrible to Harry? Thanks From ellencs44 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 21:23:03 2004 From: ellencs44 at yahoo.com (ellencs44) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 21:23:03 -0000 Subject: COS musings/questions (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105361 leb wrote: > In ch 18 Dobby's Reward -- > Harry gives the diary back to Lucius. > > And lastly from the same chapter . . . does anyone else get a chill > that Harry tells Dobby "Just promise never to try and save my life > again." Knowing how literal house elves can be this could turn out > to be Harry's downfall in the end! Ellen now: Strange you should bring that last up because in the movie, not the book, Harry doesn't know exactly how close he was to being dead, right there. I assume that everyone noticed exactly what Lucius Malfoy was starting to say as he raised his wand? It's not in the book, and the word could only have come from JKR herself, as it doesn't come up until GoF. From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Fri Jul 9 22:46:11 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 22:46:11 -0000 Subject: The Mirror and the Heart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105362 Kneasy and SSSusan are discussing the Mirror of Erised: SSSusan: > . . . when he also KNEW that Harry would be tempted to sit there and rot in front of it, tormented. > Yes, thrilled beyond measure, but also so obsessed that he couldn't > tear himself away. Me, Aggie: with evil grin on face, responds. . . . . .Sounds a lot like this group!!! LOL! I sit here, in front of this 'puter and rot!!! Ha ha ha Apologies, couldn't resist! ;o) From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sat Jul 10 01:23:40 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 01:23:40 -0000 Subject: The Mirror and the Heart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105363 > SSSusan: > > I guess I see it as DD keeping a close enough eye on things (from > > his mysterious, behind-the-scenes-SOMEHOW-seeing-everything > > position) that he [or his designate--McG? Snape?] would have > > stepped in if Harry got into too much trouble. Maybe that's making > > DD out to be too omnipresent, but I like the story. :-) > > > Neri: > > I tend to side with Jen on this. Here is what DD had to say about > > it in OotP (Ch. 37): > > ------------------------------------------------- > > 'And then . . . well, you will remember the events of your > > first year at Hogwarts quite as clearly as I do. You rose > > magnificently to the challenge that faced you and sooner ? much > > sooner ? than I had anticipated, you found yourself face to face > > with Voldemort. > > ------------------------------------------------ > > > > So unless you believe DD liesoutright, he didn't plan for Harry's > > confrontation with Voldy in SS/PS. Could he plan the only > > mirror/stone part without knowing about LV? I guess he could, if > > he thought Quirrell is trying to get the stone for himself, but > > personally I don't think so. > SSSusan: > Aw, shucks. Two of my favorite posters don't like my theory. It's > no wonder I don't do much theorizing. ;-) > > Actually, Neri, I had considered that speech of DD's. I think DD > may have known something was up w/ QUIRRELL wanting to get the stone > (for himself or for Voldy), but NOT that Voldy was attached, right > there, to his head. I think that part *did* surprise him. But I > think it's possible that he knew Quirrell was after the stone. Jen: Hey, I was just about to write back and be waffly! I was thinking about the nature of the WW, and how the rules are different for children dealing with danger at an early age. I still don't think DD set up the 7 tasks strictly for Harry, but he does allow Harry to experience the WW pretty much on his own, unless Harry is in imminent danger AND Dumbledore happens to know about the danger & can get to the situation quickly (i.e., the MOM). SSSusan: > As an aside, is it possible that Snape shared his suspicions of > Quirrell with DD, or do you think Severus kept that to himself? If > the latter, why is that? Jen: I don't get this part at all. Why did DD & Co. set up protection on the stone if they didn't think someone was after it? Snape knew pretty early on Quirrell was searching for the stone and yet he's allowed to hang out at Hogwarts, within walking distance of the stone. Go figure. Jen, noting she & Susan *disagreed* on something, not an everyday event for sure :). From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 01:26:22 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 01:26:22 -0000 Subject: About Sirius, Wormtail, Snape, Draco In-Reply-To: <20040704065145.32276.qmail@webmail8.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105364 Amey wrote: > And one more point to ponder about Snape... he knew somebody close to Potters was passing information, there were only 3 persons really close to them.. its only a matter of raising their sleeve... all this doesn't speak highly of his spying abilities. Because we know he was spying for DD for a long time. Or was he also blinded by the fact that it was James and Sirius who were in danger? He would have loved all of them killed and any one of them as spy for LV would be his idea for christmas present. I don't think PP figured in his revenge anywhere. PP seems only a peripheral figure in the rivalry. Carol responds: Snape wasn't spying on the Marauders. In fact, Sirius apparently lost track of him after they left school. He had no idea that Snape had been a DE or was teaching at Hogwarts, which IMO happened at the beginning of term the year that the Potters were killed (September 1; they were killed on October 31). Presumably Snape lost track of him and James as well. In any case, Snape wasn't spying on his former schoolmates; he was spying on LV and the Death Eaters, to all appearances still one of them. So his not knowing who the spy/traitor was says nothing about his own abilities as a spy. Most likely LV kept Peter's identity a secret from all but his most trusted DEs. Lucius and Bellatrix may have known, but not someone as young and new to the group as Snape (who also didn't know that three of the Marauders were animagi). Regarding rolling up their sleeves: the MoM seems oddly ignorant of the Dark Mark, which would be a dead giveaway--and would have proven Sirius innocent. Fudge seems shocked and appalled when Snape (with admirable courage and determination) reveals his. The marks must have become nearly invisible after LV was vaporized. (People have presented theories on this but we haven't reached a consensus.) Carol From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 01:28:00 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 01:28:00 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes (or Snape-aholics and Siriophiles) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105365 Kneasy wrote: > When the Anti-Snape Alliance flail away, castigating him for the way > he treats Harry and Neville, nurses his grudges against James and > Sirius, they're really missing the point. We know all that. It's not > news it's canon. For Snape-aholics the nub of the question is - > why? What is the back-story, what are Snape's motivations? snip. Alla: Kneasy, if this is the position taken by Snape advocates, I actually have nothing to debate. I am in perfect understanding and agreement of such position. If Snape's abusiveness, revengefullness, pettiness ,shalowness, etc. is duly acknowledged , but despite all that people like Snape as interesting character and want to know his motivations, I think I understand that. Believe it or not, I also really, really want to know Snape's back story. I am curious, if nothing else. I want to argue when what Snape does is JUSTIFIED, because he MAY have best intentions in mind. (No, I am not saying people cannot have such opinions, I am saying that I usually want to challenge them) Because to me even if Snape has good intentions toward Harry, at face value what he does cannot be justified. From yutu75es at yahoo.es Sat Jul 10 01:28:12 2004 From: yutu75es at yahoo.es (fridwulfa hagrid) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 03:28:12 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Thestrals and Quirrels Death References: <20040710005014.55398.qmail@web13526.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <020b01c4661d$2d6428c0$f5256750@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 105366 Mo wrote: > > We all know that if you wittness death, you can see > thestrals. > Harry can see the thestrals after Cedrics death. It > has been debated before about seeing his parent's > death, but not having full knowledge as a baby. > > Well, didn't Harry see Professor Quirrel die in PS/SS? > So, Shouldn't he be able to see Thestrals by book 2? > Fridwulfa (me) answers: Harry was unconscious when Quirrell died. He didn't see it actually happening. DD told him about it later, in the Hospital Wing. Cheers, Fridwulfa From holmesclan2002 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 22:48:20 2004 From: holmesclan2002 at yahoo.com (Melanie Holmes) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 22:48:20 -0000 Subject: Why do we always gang up on Sirius? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105367 Val: > Why is everyone so against Sirius? > I think people aren't blaming James as much as Sirius in the > Pensieve scene because, well, he's dead and deserves some > respect. If I wasn't in denial, I'd say so is Sirius, doesn't > he deserve some respect? Anyways, my point is: Sirius is not a > bad person, he's not evil and I really wish people here would > stop portaying him as a bad guy most of the time... SSSusan: > I don't think "everyone" *is* against Sirius or portraying him as a > bad guy most of the time at all. I don't see why pointing out a > problem, flaw, arrogance, whatever you want to call it, with Sirius > is necessarily being "against" him or portraying him as a bad guy. > Lots of us have been arguing for quite some time that these > characters are GREY and complex. It's easy to "like" a character > and still see his failings. Melbaluna here....concerning our frustration with Sirius: Maybe we're just mad at him because he died. I mean, he was kind of arrogantly taunting his opponent (and laughing, kind of like he thought it was a game). Maybe we just wanted him to be RESPONSIBLE and not blow it for Harry and everyone by showing his immaturity at such an inopportune moment. It was a little foolish bravado on his part resulting in a death that didn't need to happen. His recklessness equates to a big loss for all of us! ( Sniff...) Melbaluna From hallisallimalli at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 22:54:02 2004 From: hallisallimalli at yahoo.com (halli) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 22:54:02 -0000 Subject: COS musings/questions (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105368 leb wrote: > In ch 18 Dobby's Reward -- > Harry gives the diary back to Lucius. Even though all the ink > drained out of it when it was pierced by the fang and it is > supposedly empty wasn't it a dangerous thing to return? DD also > warns Lucius "not to go giving out any more of LV's old school > things." Does this mean that TR and LM were at school together? > Why does Lucius have them and what else can we expect to see? halli: Lucius is 41 in CoS and VM is at least 60, because he went to school with Hagrid, 50 years ago. Lucius wouldn't have been born yet! IMO, he just got the diary from VM as a plan to attack Hogwarts from the inside, and since his downfall, Lucius just now got around to planting it. From claphamsubwarden at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 23:01:19 2004 From: claphamsubwarden at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 23:01:19 -0000 Subject: Snape as the HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105369 Katie: 4. There's something VERY important about Snape that JKR hasn't told us. Therefore: Snape is the HBP! Tooks: It's a possibility... We know that - according to his memory - as a child he was witness to verbal and emotional abuse, but we don't know why and how often it occured...was his father ... Chris now: ... A Muggle who agrees with the Dursleys/Riddle Snr's view of magic and his way to deal with this was to beat Snape and Mrs Snape. Thus the reason he was in Slytherin was his hatred of Muggles ( a la Tom Riddle) This also lends weight to the fact that Snape is the HBP but also that he will (irrespective of whether he is the HBP) will play a large part in the victor (HP/LV) victory. Chris http://groups.yahoo.com/group/merlin_legacy From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Fri Jul 9 23:06:16 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 23:06:16 -0000 Subject: HBP & the Weasleys In-Reply-To: <20040709223214.95120.qmail@web41214.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105370 ---Bill wrote: > If the Weasleys are the true heirs, wouldn't the oldest son be the one in line, instead of Ron or even Percy ? Me,Aggie: I think that would all depend on whether or not 'the powers that be' decided that was going to be the case. If I understand this thread correctly then we are not talking about a typical monarchy system here, where it would stand that first born male would inherit the title. I'm not entirely sure how a Weasley would become a prince but think the idea is fantastic. I think they deserve it! Just to add another little twist though, what if it's Ginny?!?! I know it's called H.B.PRINCE but what if she was 'supposed' to be a boy and something went wrong in the DNA sequencing? Far fetched I know but I still think it may be a possibility!! Then again there's always Trevor. . . From hallisallimalli at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 23:09:10 2004 From: hallisallimalli at yahoo.com (halli) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 23:09:10 -0000 Subject: The Mirror and the Heart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105371 > Kneasy: > > Oh ye of little faith - if it's a communication device, and every > > mirror we've seen in the WW does communicate (or at least I can't > > remember one that doesn't) - why shouldn't DD's be one that > > broadcasts what DD 'desires and wants' you to see? Very handy, > > I'dve thought. Halli: I highly doubt that DD is the one controlling it. I don't have the book right now, but from what DD said about men wasting away before it, it seems more like an old, old artifact that DD simply came across or received somehow. It could have been barrowed from the DoM, seems like the type of thing that would be in there. I really don't think that DD would have allowed men to waste away before it if it really was his...unless they were evil, but even so... > SSSusan: > This is all quite possible. I wonder, though, why DD would want to > give Harry such a gift (bec. it seems that is what you're saying, it > was the gift of seeing his family) when he also KNEW that Harry > would be tempted to sit there and rot in front of it, tormented. > Yes, thrilled beyond measure, but also so obsessed that he couldn't > tear himself away. halli: I agree with Susan on this. If DD was trying to show Harry his parents through the mirror, wouldn't that be like when Moody showed Harry that picture of his parents with the Order? Kinda sick, IMO. SSSusan: > BTW, I don't think Harry's deepest desire was to get out of there at > that moment. I don't think he was focusing on that *yet*. I think > his deepest desire was truly to STOP Q!V, and THIS is precisely what > DD was testing in Harry. WOULD his deepest desire be to split, or > would it be (as DD suspected & hoped) to stop Q!V and protect the > stone? halli (again): I think in the book that Harry actually says that his deepest desire is to get the stone before Q!V does...let me try and find it... SS Am Ed, pg 291 "Harry's mind was racing. What I want more than anything else in the world at the moment, he thought, is to find the Stone before Quirrell does. So if I look in the mirror, I should see myself finding it..." So it wouldn't be to stop Quirrell nessesarily, but to simply find it first, and then get out of there, you'd think. halli, who is a bad quoter, poster, and new here, sort of... From claphamsubwarden at yahoo.com Fri Jul 9 23:36:44 2004 From: claphamsubwarden at yahoo.com (Chris) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 23:36:44 -0000 Subject: COS musings In-Reply-To: <000e01c46603$c0fe68d0$61c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105372 leb2323: "Does this mean that TR and LM were at school together? Why does Lucius have them and what else can we expect to see?" Cathy: TR and LM couldn't possibly have been at Hogwarts together unless there IS a time shift involved. In COS which is supposed to be, what, 1992, TR/LV would be about 65 given that it chamber was opened 50 years before and Tom in the diary was about 15...in OotP, which would be 1995, LM is stated in the Daily Prophet as being 41. Chris now: Time is the one thing that does not seem to be constant through out the Harry Potter books and is something of great interest for me. Definite Time References in the Book put Harry being born in 1980, Lily/James' death in 1981 and Sir Nicolas' 500th Death Day(Harry's second year) as 1992(making Harry correctly 12.) Being the sad git that I am I looked into days of said years. The first reference is in PS, that the 1st November 1981 is a Tuesday. Now working back from my birthday, (25/11/1982 - a Thursday), the 1st November 1981 was a Sunday. Now through most of the rest of the writing JKR studiously avoids naming specific days. The other problem was that (to me at least) term always started on a Monday yet the Hogwarts Express always left on the 1st September, and classes started the next day. So that obviously can not be true. I think that it is safe to say that Lucius was never at school with Tom Riddle and that the embodiment of Lord Voldemort at the end of GoF is 67 less the 14 = 53, and given wizards seemingly longer life spans would place him still in the (latter) parts of prime condition. This of course means that Hagrid is 64 at the end of OotP. Anyone else care to take over........? Check out HP:Lexicon for the current best interpretation of the timeline. Chris http://groups.yahoo.com/group/merlin_legacy (Incidently the whole investigation stemmed from my reference of "American Pie" being wathched by Harry in the summer after OoTP, which is 1995, yet "American Pie" was not released until 1999.) From cruthw at earthlink.net Fri Jul 9 23:47:03 2004 From: cruthw at earthlink.net (caspenzoe) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 23:47:03 -0000 Subject: HBP of What? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105373 Angie wrote: > Probably a stupid question. I've read all of the books, and I > don't remember any references to royalty pertaining to the wizard > world. > So what can the HBP be "prince" of? Something in the Muggle world? I don't think it's a stupid question at all. Seems to me that any comprehsive theory of whom the "Half Blood Prince" of book 6 is must address that question. So far, despite some referrences to royalness among the ghosts, no one I've read has pointed out anything canonical explaining "royalty pertaining to the wizard world." Neither has anyone given any canonical information about whether the ghosts derive their royal status from the muggle world or the WW, or both. I have read some theories over on a site called Redhen that the muggle and WW were undifferentiated politically and socially until some point in recent history - several centuries ago is my vague impression. I don't know if this theory is generally accepted or what it's based on. I'll have to go take a closer look. I am fairly convinced at this point that the lack of hyphen in the title can't be a mistake, but must be a carefully thought-out choice. Therefore "HP and the Half Blood Prince" is at least doubly ambiguous as a title - we don't really know what it means, let alone whom it refers to. There's been some interesting related discussion on that point here in the last couple of pages. Casey From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Sat Jul 10 01:47:42 2004 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 21:47:42 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Thestrals and Quirrels Death Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105374 In a message dated 7/9/2004 6:42:02 PM Pacific Standard Time, fauntine_80 at yahoo.com writes: I apologise if this has been written before, but I can't remember ever hearing of it. We all know that if you wittness death, you can see thestrals. Harry can see the thestrals after Cedrics death. It has been debated before about seeing his parent's death, but not having full knowledge as a baby. Well, didn't Harry see Professor Quirrel die in PS/SS? So, Shouldn't he be able to see Thestrals by book 2? just a question. ~Mo Cassie (me): I've always thought that Harry fainted BEFORE Quirrell died. If so, then Harry would not've actually seen him die. And even if Quirrell did die before Harry was unconcious, maybe he didn't see the Thestrals because he did not actually watch Quirrell die. ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pandrea100 at hotmail.com Fri Jul 9 23:56:12 2004 From: pandrea100 at hotmail.com (pandrea100) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 23:56:12 -0000 Subject: house elves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105375 niekycrins wrote: > Remember what DD said when HP asked him what he would want to see > in the Mirror of Erised? DD would like to see himself holding a > pair of thick, woollen socks. Socks? Dobby? Clothes? Ohmigod! Dumbledore is an enchanted oversized house elf, bound to Hogwarts and secretly longing for socks to free him! ;-) Heh. I do like the idea of house elf spies, though. I feel that Hermione's ongoing liberation efforts are definitely going somewhere, as well of course as revealing more of her personality (because not EVERYthing in the books is simply plot-driven). That, coupled with Hagrid's efforts with the giants, the defence of Buckbeak and Lupin and the Animagi theme, all seem coupled, as if the strength of the good side is partly in its diversity. That seems like a very JK kind of idea, a sort of multicultural fightback against the pureblood and, so far, entirely human ranks of Voldemort (apart from snakes - snakes in the grass, traitors to the magical creatures?). But precisely what part they will all play, I don't know. And so far, the other house elves have shown no signs of wanting to follow Dobby's example - what would it take for them to suddenly change their minds? Surely it would have to be a free choice, ordering them to fight for the good side would be wrong (like ordering slaves to fight in the US Civil War). Maybe only Dobby and Winky will help out. Maybe that example, with them ending up as war heroes, will inspire other elves to 'be all they can be'. Pandrea From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 01:53:02 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 01:53:02 -0000 Subject: Draco Malfoy In-Reply-To: <001201c461a5$27b75180$bfc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105376 Cathy wrote: One of the things jumping out at me on my current read through the books (I've lost track of how many times this is) is just how much Draco knows. He drops little hints of things all the way through the books. In the last chapter of GF, something HP seems to ignore or, at least, not comment on, is Malfoy's "I told you not to hang around with riff-raff like this! Too late now, Potter. They'll be the first to go, now the Dark Lord's back!" Malfoy knew it, when Fudge wouldn't even admit it (although I am quite certain he knew it to be true but was too concerned with his postition at the MOM to want to admit it), and when, upon returning to school in Sept, HP realized a good portion of the rest of the students didn't believe LV had returned. I think Malfoy, Sr has been a little incautious about what he says in front of his kid. Or at least doesn't check to make sure Draco isn't eavesdropping before having this intersting conversations. Draco knows too much. It will be interesting to see where his story goes in the next two books. I've always though, in the end, Harry is going to have to save Draco somehow. Carol responds: I agree with you that Draco knows some surprising things (Harry would do well to listen to him but, of course, not be baited by him). For example, he knows something about the Chamber of Secrets (though he doesn't know who the Heir of Slytherin is or exactly what's in the Chamber). He also "knows" that Sirius was the Secret Keeper for the Potters and betrayed them ("I'd want revenge if I were you.") But I think his father knows just how much to tell Draco and how much to keep quiet (he knows his son is a sneaky little rat and from what we see in CoS, he keeps him firmly in line--in contrast to his apparently indulgent mother). But Draco wasn't told by his father that Voldemort was back. He was in school when it happened. It was Dumbledore who made the announcement at the end of the year feast, when he tells the students that Voldemort murdered Cedric (technically, Wormtail killed him, but Dumbledore also gives incomplete information). I can't see Harry saving Draco, much less Draco going over to the other side. He's been too throroughly indoctrinated from a very young age. Almost certainly his father will escape in Book 6 and die in Book 7, but I have no idea what Draco's fate will be. (Defeated but ready to make trouble for the next generation?) You mentioned Goyle Sr. in the part of your post that I snipped. It's true that he wasn't named by Lucius Malfoy in what amounts to a roll call of the DEs present in the MoM, but he could be the baby-headed Death Eater, who was out of the picture at that point if I recall correctly. Since the other DEs were rounded up and placed under an anti-apparating spell, the baby-head and the injured Nott were probably also caught and placed in St. Mungo's. Whether they were cured and sent to Azkaban or are still in the hospital is anybody's guess. But Gregory Goyle's behavior at the end of GoF suggests that his father shared the fate of Crabbe Sr. and Lucius Malfoy, meaning that Goyle Sr. is probably in Azkaban with his DE friends. Only Bellatrix and Voldemort escaped, as far as we know. Carol, who thinks we keep better track of JKR's characters than she does From pandrea100 at hotmail.com Sat Jul 10 00:01:11 2004 From: pandrea100 at hotmail.com (pandrea100) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 00:01:11 -0000 Subject: Aunt Petunia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105377 Chris wrote: > > The second question has a bit more of a definite answer, we know that > Hermione has no brothers/sisters unless she has failed to mention > them.(Unlikely esp. as her parents are both dentists, therefore > v.busy). Wha-aa-aat? Too busy to conceive another child? Are they using Tantric methods? Personally, I hope Petunia doesn't turn out to have magical powers just because she doesn't deserve them. Magic in these books is a sort of glorious imagination - even the bad magic, like the Unforgiveable Curses, you have to be able imagine causing real pain - and the Dursleys are the sort of boring, deadly people who hate imagination and insist on everything being what they think is 'real'. They remind me of the Dwarves at the end of the Narnia books, who get into 'heaven' but refuse to even acknowledge it because they won't accept anything outside their experience. However, maybe it could be done in such a way that I'd accept Petunia having powers as a good part of the story. It would certainly be a surprise! Pandrea From pandrea100 at hotmail.com Sat Jul 10 00:06:02 2004 From: pandrea100 at hotmail.com (pandrea100) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 00:06:02 -0000 Subject: HBP & the Weasleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105378 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "genma99" wrote: > Third, JKR has mentioned that muggles will begin to notice more of > the wizard world. I haven't heard this before, can you tell me more please? Incidentally, I really hope it doesn't turn out the Weasleys are royal in anything but a symbolic sense. I don't like the idea that they 'need' a title or a spurious heritage to prove how noble they are. They're great as they are. Pandrea From tarasenk at msu.edu Sat Jul 10 00:25:15 2004 From: tarasenk at msu.edu (Kimberly) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 00:25:15 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105379 Angie wrote: > Did Hagrid get the official OK to practice magic after he was > cleared of the charge of opening the COS? Or is he still forced > to use his "umbrella?" Hagrid is allowed to practice magic. Here's the quote from JKR: "Q: Since Hagrid's name was cleared in Book 2, will he ever be allowed to do magic openly again? (Jan Campbell) A: He is allowed. He has been allowed to do magic openly ever since he became a teacher but because he was never fully trained his magic is never going to be what it should be. He is always going to be a bit inept" It's from an interview from July 2000. You can find the whole transcript here: http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/0700-swns-alfie.htm. Hope that helps! Kimberly From jlawlor at gmail.com Sat Jul 10 00:33:52 2004 From: jlawlor at gmail.com (James Lawlor) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 19:33:52 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Mirror and the Heart In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96773c880407091733428b4158@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105380 > Kneasy: > Well, we can argue about this until the cows come home, but the fact > of the matter is that Quirrell did not want to use the Stone - that's > made quite clear in canon. Subsequent events are problematical, but > it seems that to Voldy Quirrell had only one use - to find and hand > over the Stone. > > If that's true - and we have no reason to think otherwise - then we > are forced to conclude that DD's at it again - he's shaving the truth. > > Harry and quirrell did have different motives, true. > Harry wasn't trying to find the Stone at all, he was trying to stop > someone else from finding it - Quirrell. But neither intended to > use it - and that, according to DD is what matters. The Mirror > hid the Stone from anyone who wanted to use it. I think this isn't so much a matter of DD "shaving the truth" or hiding something as unintentionally vague wording on the part of DD/JKR. I think a better way to say it would have been "who wanted to find the stone, but not for its use". Quirrel wanted to find the Stone, not to use it himself, but definitely for its use. Harry wanted to find the Stone, but so that it could not be used, thus Harry found the stone in his pocket. At any rate, I generally refuse to believe that Dumbledore is being deceptive, devious, or even evil. He doesn't tell the entire truth sometimes, but I think when he does, he has good intentions at heart. - James Lawlor jlawlor at gmail.com > From larsonmart at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 00:43:06 2004 From: larsonmart at yahoo.com (Marty Larson) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 00:43:06 -0000 Subject: Snape vs James Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105381 This is just a thought since I have no recall of any information about either the family history of either Snape or James in relation to actual people. We know that James was wealthy, and that Snape, from his own memory, appeared to not be wealthy. James claims that the reason he picks on Snape is merely a matter of his "existing". Snape is turn appears to really hate James and not only because James saved him from Lupin, after Sirius was going to send him to the Shrieking Shack. Well, what if part of the issue is that they are related - two sides of the family - the well-off one, and the grumpy, angry, not-so- well off side. In many cases, just the financial difference would lead to jealousy. However when factored in is the abilities and popularity, perhaps the jealous factor has grown out of porportion to the original reason it existed when they were children. Perhaps this is a key to the back story that will be developed. Along these same lines, we know that James, whatever else he was, he hated the Dark Arts, and the Snape reveled in them. Perhaps the initial push towards each's position came when they were very young, and was family related. This possible relationship has been on mind for a while - hope it is clear. Marty From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 02:05:29 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 02:05:29 -0000 Subject: The Mirror and the Heart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105382 > SSSusan: > Aw, shucks. Two of my favorite posters don't like my theory. It's > no wonder I don't do much theorizing. ;-) > Neri: Other members not liking my theories never stopped me. It is the lack of any response that is the real bitch... > SSSusan: > Actually, Neri, I had considered that speech of DD's. I think DD > may have known something was up w/ QUIRRELL wanting to get the stone > (for himself or for Voldy), but NOT that Voldy was attached, right > there, to his head. I think that part *did* surprise him. But I > think it's possible that he knew Quirrell was after the stone. > > As an aside, is it possible that Snape shared his suspicions of > Quirrell with DD, or do you think Severus kept that to himself? If > the latter, why is that? Neri: If Snape was coordinated with DD on this, why did he have to try and go past Fluffy by himself and nearly lose his leg? Hagrid told DD from the beginning how to go past Fluffy. And had Snape told DD he suspects Quirrell (or had DD suspected Quirrell by himself) do you think DD couldn't see into Quirrell's turban, or into Quirrell's mind? He certainly saw Voldy through Harry's eyes in OotP. And did Hagrid fail to tell DD that a unicorn was killed in the forest, or did DD fail to understand the significance of this? Nope, I find it much more probable that DD suspected LV was around and trying to steal the Stone, but he didn't know where exactly is LV hiding, and he didn't suspect it is so close, or he wouldn't have left Hogwarts. It seems Snape was working on his own without consulting DD. He probably felt that in order to get even with James' memory he must save Harry by himself. The whole story behind SS/PS is admittedly very murky, but this is the less problematic explanation I can think of. Neri From larsonmart at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 00:50:16 2004 From: larsonmart at yahoo.com (Marty Larson) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 00:50:16 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's wand / New Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105383 > Asian_lovr2: > I think the key to your question is the "Offical OK". Hagrid has > gotten an UNofficial OK from Dumbledore to use magic in his > association with the school. And the people who know Hagrid well > have alway conviniently looked the other way when he performed magic. > > But in OotP the Ministry was not in such a friendly mood and they > would have seized any excuse to persecute some one close to > Dumbledore. Hagrid says as much when he tells Harry/Ron/Hermione > about his visit to the giants. JKR has stated that there will be new Minister of Magic, so perhaps that is how Hagrid can petition for the "Official OK". miggs: Is there going to be a new minister of magic in the next books? JK Rowling replies -> Yes. Ha! Finally, a concrete bit of information, I hear you cry! World Book DAy Chat 4/4/2004 Marty From aandj at labyrinth.net.au Sat Jul 10 00:55:52 2004 From: aandj at labyrinth.net.au (Jocelyn Grunow) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 11:55:52 +1100 Subject: Hermione's sister - was Aunt Petunia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105384 Chris wrote: > we know that Hermione has no brothers/sisters unless she > has failed to mention them. (Unlikely esp. as her parents are > both dentists, therefore v.busy). Sharlene wrote: > And about Hermione...I've heard she has a younger sister, who's not > a witch. Maybe because she is too young, or just not one--since > she's not in Hogwarts. There is a quote from JKR which I read a few days ago at the SugarQuill site which says something along the lines of 'I originally meant for Hermione to have a younger sister but it's probably too late now.' Jocelyn From pete_larkin at btinternet.com Sat Jul 10 01:11:44 2004 From: pete_larkin at btinternet.com (peter838169) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 01:11:44 -0000 Subject: HP and the Half "Blood Prince" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105385 Just something for pondering over. It sounds absolutely stupid to me and I'm not sure why I'm posting it. But we can't do much to interpret a title of a book, you can only look into it so far. Everyone so far has been seeming to think that the new title means something about a half-blood wizard (I'm definitely one of them 'cause it seems the most logical theory). But 'cause of the lack of the hyphen in the title perhaps it could be something to do with a "Blood-Prince"? Far-fetched I know, not impossible though. If it was something to do with a "Blood-Prince" it could relate to Snape, for those who believe he is a vampire or some way in relation to one. Sorry for the stupid thought, just trying to reason with all the possibilies! Pete From anita_hillin at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 02:17:27 2004 From: anita_hillin at yahoo.com (anita_hillin at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 11:17:27 +0900 Subject: Notice again Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105386 Do not visit this illegal websites! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Batchevra at aol.com Sat Jul 10 02:27:05 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:27:05 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Defending Percy Message-ID: <43.2e001054.2e20adf9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105387 In a message dated 7/9/04 4:15:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, delwynmarch at yahoo.com writes: >Batchevra wrote : > He has to make a choice in the next two books, will he allow his > family to die, or will he stand with them. Del replies : That's just a theory of yours, right ? Because it implies that it is the Ministry who wants to kill his family, which seems unlikely to me. Moreover, even if he decides to stand with his family, that won't prevent them from dying at the hand of LV : he'll just die with them. Del< You are correct, it is a theory of mine, but it seems to me that Percy is being set up to have a tragedy, and it may involve his family. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From libtax10375 at earthlink.net Sat Jul 10 01:23:57 2004 From: libtax10375 at earthlink.net (Leeann McCullough) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 21:23:57 -0400 Subject: Voldemort's possessions Message-ID: <002e01c4661c$93695dd0$9d66ef04@CPQ16151965929> No: HPFGUIDX 105388 Angie: > I wonder how Lucius gained possession of Voldemort's diary in the > first place. If he got it from Voldemort, who knows what other > things of Voldemort's Lucius has hidden? Does this not suggest > that Lucius is VERY close to Voldemort? Angie, I don't want to quote here, but I do remember DD saying to Lucius something like, let us hope that no more of Lord Voldemort's school things turn up. I have no doubt that the Malfoys and maybe some other DE's are in possession of "Tom's" dangerous things. Although not being as clever as JKR, I can't begin to think what those things could be. However, I do think that's already been done and she won't try it again. She doesn't like it when we are able to guess! Leeann From weildman at comcast.net Sat Jul 10 01:28:41 2004 From: weildman at comcast.net (weildman) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 18:28:41 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Thestrals and Quirrels Death In-Reply-To: <20040710005014.55398.qmail@web13526.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000801c4661d$3be6c240$6400a8c0@Desktop> No: HPFGUIDX 105389 ~Mo wrote: > We all know that if you witness death, you can see > thestrals. Harry can see the thestrals after Cedric's > death. It has been debated before about seeing his > parents' deaths, but not having full knowledge as a > baby. > > Well, didn't Harry see Professor Quirrel die in PS/SS? > So, Shouldn't he be able to see Thestrals by book 2? While this is covered under the groups FAQ, I believe this to be a valid argument and misconception because this is a major series plot-point mistreated by the first film. In the canon, Harry passes out before Quirrell dies. The pain of touching LV is too much and he faints. In the film however, Harry attacks Quirrell's face, Quirrell disintegrates, Harry retrieves the stone, LV (Spirit form) passes through Harry, and Harry passes out. The change of sequence creates a problem with the canon Thestral expiation. The filmmakers obviously had not read OoP while making SS/PS (as it had not been released) nor did JKR insure the correct sequence of events. Furthermore, the question was avoided in CoS because Harry, along with Ron, arrived not by the Hogwart's Express but by the flying car. I do not believe that the horseless carriages appeared in PoA(film) but given that the film was shot post release of OoP I would think the filmmakers would avoid dealing with the mistake until the fifth book. Trevor From meltowne at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 02:34:00 2004 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 02:34:00 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105390 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kimberly" wrote: > Angie wrote: > > Did Hagrid get the official OK to practice magic after he was > > cleared of the charge of opening the COS? Or is he still forced > > to use his "umbrella?" > > > Hagrid is allowed to practice magic. Here's the quote from JKR: > "Q: Since Hagrid's name was cleared in Book 2, will he ever be > allowed to do magic openly again? (Jan Campbell) > A: He is allowed. He has been allowed to do magic openly ever since > he became a teacher but because he was never fully trained his magic > is never going to be what it should be. He is always going to be a > bit inept" > > It's from an interview from July 2000. You can find the whole > transcript here: > http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/0700- swns-alfie.htm. She may have said that in an interview, but when HAgrid went to look for the Giants, he said he would be watched because he wasn't allowed to use magic - which suggests that he was not in fact authorized to perform magic, even though his name was cleared. Which do we take as canon? From myminizoo at aol.com Sat Jul 10 00:54:46 2004 From: myminizoo at aol.com (nailteacher) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 00:54:46 -0000 Subject: Chapt. Discussion: Chapter 22 - Harry's Support In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105391 > Del: > I'm sure Hermione pestered everyone she could get her hands > on about how awful Harry must feel all alone at Privet Drive: > the Order must have known about Harry's needs. And as you said, > it would have taken very little to start fulfilling these needs. > Yet they didn't. The only logical explanation I can find is that > they didn't want to. > > Pippin: > Um yes, and everyone is going to take advice from fifteen year > old Hermione? And what could they do anyway? The adults at > Grimmauld Place are in no position to comfort Harry: they're just > as depressed, frightened, miserable and traumatized as he is. > Look at the state Molly's in. And Sirius. And Arthur, feuding with > Percy. Mundungus, skiving off to buy dodgy cauldrons. > Dumbledore, deciding that his affection for Harry is a liability. > Etc. > > And it appears that until Snape reported, they had no more > information than Harry had about what Voldemort was up to, so > they *couldn't* have told him anything even if they'd wanted to. It seems to me, a new member, that there are more things going on here than meet the eye, and looking at them from the point of view of a parent might help explain why Harry was left in the dark: a) Harry, although growing up, is still 15, and is not considered to be on an equal par with the "adults", he is still regarded as a child to be protected. b) In the rush to protect our children, we don't always have the time (or think of the need) to explain to them why we are doing things, or to explain the plan. For example, a parent and child are walking in the woods, the parent sees that a snake is too close to the child, who does not see it, and the parent yells for the child to stop. At this moment, the parent sees that the child's life could be in danger, and they expect the child to unquestioningly obey, in effect to trust the parent. This could very well have been the perspective of the adults at Grimmauld Place, with the exception of Sirius, who seems to aguing for Harry's complete adulthood. c) With these two points in mind, I see the underlying problem throughout all of OOP to be communication. DD still sees Harry as a child, so he hasn't felt the need to explain himself to Harry, and although Harry is capable of making astounding leaps of magical maturity, has yet to exhibit the kind of emotional maturity, and behaviour choices, that could make DD see Harry as an adult. Impulse control, anyone? I think that there is a distinct possibility that JKR did this on purpose, knowing that both adults and children read her books- to point out how important trust and communication are in any relationship. Harry has never had any reason before to doubt that DD had a plan, and has always known more than he was about to divulge, but also that DD should have known that Harry would get into "trouble" if everything wasn't spelled out to him. It's also good to see that DD isn't infallible. "nailteacher" From karenbjhess at hotmail.com Sat Jul 10 02:38:45 2004 From: karenbjhess at hotmail.com (Karen Hess) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 22:38:45 -0400 Subject: Wands - again Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105392 halli: Don't want to butt in or anything, but I don't think Ollivander actually HAD to know it was LV who had the other wand. All he had to know was that TR bought the wand with Fawkes' feather in it, and that Harry bought the second one, and that DD would want to know. Of course, he could have known, because he could link two and two together, with his extraordinary memory of the wands he's sold and their owners. KB responds: Sorry, halli, I guess I didn't make it clear that I was using canon for Ollivander's specific knowledge of LV's ownership of the wand. Just before Harry starts to buy his wand, Ollivander points to Harry's scar and says "I'm sorry to say I sold the wand that did it" and then goes on to describe it as "Thirteen and a half inches. Yew...very powerful." (PS/SS, p. 64, Can. ed.) And then there is a longer, more telling exchange after Harry's wand has been matched up with him, "It is very curious indeed that you should be destined for this wand when its brother -- why, it's brother gave you that scar. [...] I think we must expect great things from you, Mr Potter ... After all, He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named did great things -- terrible, yes, but great." (p. 65) So I will stick to my question, only this time I'll provide a tentative answer. Did 11-year-old Tom Riddle buy the wand and Ollivander know TR turned into LV (how? I don't think this was common knowledge -- I might be reading things wrong, but even DD only suspected the connection before CoS?) OR Did Ollivander knowingly sell a powerful wand to LV? It is common knowledge that LV caused the scar on Harry's forehead. But for Ollivander to make the connection with his own wand causing the scar, I am thinking it could not have been Tom that bought it, but LV. This gives me second thoughts about ESE!Ollivander. I think if LV came to me wanting to buy something I was selling, I doubt that I'd refuse him! OTOH, why would LV go to Ollivander and not to some wandmaker in Knockturn Alley (if one exists), or to the Durmstrang wandmaker, or some other ESE wandmaker? And what does that "terrible, but great" crack mean? And I still want to know about those "silvery eyes" of Mr Ollivander's. KB _________________________________________________________________ http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines From mbenkin at andrew.cmu.edu Sat Jul 10 02:43:41 2004 From: mbenkin at andrew.cmu.edu (vituperative404) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 02:43:41 -0000 Subject: house elves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105393 Pandrea wrote: > But precisely what part they will all play, I don't know. And > so far, the other house elves have shown no signs of wanting to > follow Dobby's example - what would it take for them to suddenly > change their minds? Surely it would have to be a free choice, > ordering them to fight for the good side would be wrong (like > ordering slaves to fight in the US Civil War). Maybe only Dobby > and Winky will help out. Maybe that example, with them ending > up as war heroes, will inspire other elves to 'be all they can be'. Melanie: An army of House Elves-- that's brilliant. Imagine Voldemort and the DEs attack Hogwarts when DD is elsewhere, only to be defeated by Dobby leading his fellow house elves into battle, casting spells with one hand and punishing himself with the other . . . That would certainly justify the amount of "screen time" spent on SPEW, though the picture of Hermione in OoP frantically trying to knit tiny elf hats justifies itself, really. -Melanie From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 02:58:28 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 02:58:28 -0000 Subject: Boggart/ Patronus Musings - Quote Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105394 Asian_lovr2 (steve) wrote: I think it would be very difficult to guess anyone's Patronus even with deep insight into that person. > > As far as a 'cloud' being Lupin's Patronus, so far all Patronus form > have been animal. That doesn't preclude it being true, but certainly > stacks the odds against it. > > As a side note; I don't think that a person's animagus for and their > Patronus are necessarily the same. That doesn't mean they are never > the same, I just think it is the rarer case. Carol: as you said in a part of the post that I snipped, a person's patronus is his or her protector. A person's animagus form, OTOH, is that person's essential self in a symbolic form. I won't even try to determine the "essential" qualities of a great, bearlike dog, but the symbolism of stags and rats is pretty clearcut. I suppose it would be possible for James and Sirius to have their own animagus forms as patronuses (-i?)if they consider themselves alpha males who don't need protectors, but imagine Peter's Patronus being a rat. Or Rita Skeeter's being a beetle. It just wouldn't work. And McGonagall's probably isn't a cat, either, unless the cat is part kneazel. (A Crookshanks-like Patronus, anybody? It doesn't work for me.) As for Lupin, who of course isn't an animagus and certainly wouldn't have a werewolf Patronus, I think we don't see his Patronus because he can't quite cast one, DADA instructor or not. All we see on both his attempts is a bright light from his wand. Not particularly good with potions or he wouldn't rely on Snape, not as good as his friends at Transfiguration or he wouldn't have to study for the O.W.L., so in his year as DADA instructor he teaches about Dark creatures. (I can see why his interests might lie in that direction, poor man, and I suppose the subject is more appropriate for third years than defensive spells, but I'm guessing he taught the same thing in all his classes regardless of level.) Despite his involvement in making the map and his knowledge of the theoretical aspects of casting a Patronus, I don't think Lupin is a particularly powerful wizard. Pretty good with boggarts, though, and a nice guy if you ignore his many sins of omission--things he should have done but didn't (but I've already listed them in a previous post). Carol From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sat Jul 10 03:00:57 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 03:00:57 -0000 Subject: The Mirror and the Heart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105395 Attempting to piece a bunch of stuff together on this thread. Forgive me, please, if it's disjointed. 1) SSSusan: > . . . when he also KNEW that Harry would be tempted to sit there > and rot in front of it, tormented. Yes, thrilled beyond measure, > but also so obsessed that he couldn't tear himself away. Aggie: with evil grin on face, responds. . . > . . .Sounds a lot like this group!!! LOL! I sit here, in front of > this 'puter and rot!!! Ha ha ha > Apologies, couldn't resist! ;o) ************************************************** 2) > Jen, noting she & Susan *disagreed* on something, not an > everyday event for sure :). ************************************************** 3) SSSusan: > Aw, shucks. Two of my favorite posters don't like my theory. It's > no wonder I don't do much theorizing. ;-) > Neri: > Other members not liking my theories never stopped me. It is the > lack of any response that is the real bitch... ************************************************* SSSusan: Ha! Three comments, to each of which I can reply with the same remark: AIN'T IT THE TRUTH?? Okay, SERIOUSLY now. SSSusan disagreed w/ Kneasy: > BTW, I don't think Harry's deepest desire was to get out of there > at that moment. I don't think he was focusing on that *yet*. I > think his deepest desire was truly to STOP Q!V, and THIS is > precisely what DD was testing in Harry. WOULD his deepest desire > be to split, or would it be (as DD suspected & hoped) to stop Q!V > and protect the stone? halli replied: > I think in the book that Harry actually says that his deepest > desire is to get the stone before Q!V does...let me try and find > it... > SS Am Ed, pg 291 > "Harry's mind was racing. What I want more than anything else in > the world at the moment, he thought, is to find the Stone before > Quirrell does. So if I look in the mirror, I should see myself > finding it..." > So it wouldn't be to stop Quirrell nessesarily, but to simply find > it first, and then get out of there, you'd think. SSSusan: Thank you for that, Halli! I'll still take that as support for my view--at least the focus was on the stone & stopping Q, and not on getting out of there. James Lawlor wrote: > I think a better way to say it would have been "who wanted to > find the stone, but not for its use". Quirrel wanted to find the > Stone, not to use it himself, but definitely for its use. Harry > wanted to find the Stone, but so that it could not be used, thus > Harry found the stone in his pocket. SSSusan: Good--another person who sees the word "use" this way. And who stated it much more clearly than I did. Jen wrote this: >> I was thinking about the nature of the WW, and how the rules are different for children dealing with danger at an early age. I still don't think DD set up the 7 tasks strictly for Harry, but he does allow Harry to experience the WW pretty much on his own, unless Harry is in imminent danger AND Dumbledore happens to know about the danger & can get to the situation quickly (i.e., the MOM).<< SSSusan: Now, we definitely agree on this--that rules regarding danger seem markedly different in the WW. But this *is* probably the weakest part of my argument. How could DD set the whole thing up as a test for Harry and still be sure he was available in case the situation got out of hand? Answer: I don't know...but he DID get there, didn't he?? :-) SSSusan had asked: > As an aside, is it possible that Snape shared his suspicions of > Quirrell with DD, or do you think Severus kept that to himself? If > the latter, why is that? Neri replied: >>And had Snape told DD he suspects Quirrell (or had DD suspected Quirrell by himself) do you think DD couldn't see into Quirrell's turban, or into Quirrell's mind? He certainly saw Voldy through Harry's eyes in OotP. And did Hagrid fail to tell DD that a unicorn was killed in the forest, or did DD fail to understand the significance of this? Nope, I find it much more probable that DD suspected LV was around and trying to steal the Stone, but he didn't know where exactly is LV hiding, and he didn't suspect it is so close, or he wouldn't have left Hogwarts. It seems Snape was working on his own without consulting DD. He probably felt that in order to get even with James' memory he must save Harry by himself.<< SSSusan again: So if DD did have an inkling that Voldy was close by somewhere, does that support my theory at all, that the whole thing was set up as a test for Harry? That that's why DD didn't DO more about this information? I mean, how can DD know so MUCH sometimes and then NOT know things like this? That frustrates me as a reader! Your explanation for Snape's keeping this to himself, btw, is the only possible explanation that's made any sense to me so far. Siriusly Snapey Susan From Batchevra at aol.com Sat Jul 10 03:04:39 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 23:04:39 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Boggart/ Patronus Musings - Quote Lupin Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105396 In a message dated 7/9/04 10:59:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, justcarol67 at yahoo.com writes: >As for Lupin, who of course isn't an animagus and certainly wouldn't have a werewolf Patronus, I think we don't see his Patronus because he can't quite cast one, DADA instructor or not. All we see on both his attempts is a bright light from his wand. Not particularly good with potions or he wouldn't rely on Snape, not as good as his friends at Transfiguration or he wouldn't have to study for the O.W.L., so in his year as DADA instructor he teaches about Dark creatures. (I can see why his interests might lie in that direction, poor man, and I suppose the subject is more appropriate for third years than defensive spells, but I'm guessing he taught the same thing in all his classes regardless of level.) Despite his involvement in making the map and his knowledge of the theoretical aspects of casting a Patronus, I don't think Lupin is a particularly powerful wizard. Pretty good with boggarts, though, and a nice guy if you ignore his many sins of omission--things he should have done but didn't (but I've already listed them in a previous post). Carol< Remus has produced a Patronus only we are not told what it is because it was on the train going to Hogwarts. Maybe JKR wants to keep his Patronus a secret because it gave away too much of the story that she wanted to explain later. Also in POA we saw Dumbledore do a Patronus and again it wasn't described as a form only as a silvery thing shooting out of the wand. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cruthw at earthlink.net Fri Jul 9 23:30:01 2004 From: cruthw at earthlink.net (caspenzoe) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 23:30:01 -0000 Subject: HBP & the Weasleys In-Reply-To: <20040709223214.95120.qmail@web41214.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105397 Bill wrote: > If the Weasleys are the true heirs, wouldn't the oldest son be > the one in line, instead of Ron or even Percy? In our world, sure, the oldest son would be the one in line. In the WW who really knows? I've read some posts here and on other forums (sorry I don't have references for you at the moment) discussing the fact that we don't have any real affirmation of or description of any WW royalty in the canon, although Sirius refers to his family's considering itself "almost royalty" due to the pureness of it's blood (I believe that one's on a recent thread here), leaving one to wonder if there is such a thing as "Royalty" in the WW, in addition to mere "heirs," and, if so, what and/or whom it might consist of? Certainly, a sword such as Gryffindor's is a weapon that was historically reserved for royalty (in the broad sense, including minor nobility) in the muggle world, and Godric had one. But that doesn't preclude the possibiility of his being some kind of WW royalty either, does it? In addition, perhaps what was cut from COS was a discussion of what or whom might be Gryffindor's "heir" if any. We do find some commentary on how house membership is really determined in COS - none of which precludes however - to my best recollection - the possibility that there may be more than one way "Gryffindor-ness" is determined or there may be other ways of being a "Gryffindor" than Hogwart's house selection. Back to your question however, personally, it'd be neater if Ron had turned out to be a 7th Weasley son (with all the legendary connotations of the same), as that would bolster this speculation. However, of course he's the 6th son. Hence my speculation about Ginny. I did however, after making the previous post, find a name origins site that connects the name "Ronald" (a Scottish name) directly with (I believe the also Scottish) name Reginald, meaning "King." Given JKR's admissions that she loves names and owns books of them (a quirk I also share, incidentally) this may be meaningful. Incidentally, none of the other brothers have names with any Royal connotation, though the first two mean "guardian" and "manly" and Percy's (assuming it's derived from "Percival" though I seem to recall that Percival is not actually Percy's given name - just "Percy" - has to do with piercing a valley or "vale," or even "veil" if you like, perhaps indcating that the current, fallow, death-like state of any royalness in the Weasley line is about to be overcome? Along these lines, I've noted that JKR's names can and do correspond in a number of different ways (beyond etymology and history) to what they connote. For instance, Grimmauld Place is indeed a "grim old place;" Crookshanks has crooked shanks, etc. Perhaps, when "Weasely is Our King" rings throughout OOTP, JKR is simply being unexpectedly direct - hiding in plain sight - as it were - often the best way to hide - no? Just my speculation though. Casey From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Sat Jul 10 03:10:54 2004 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 03:10:54 -0000 Subject: "His eyes are green..."Re: Toad Surveillance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105398 -> > Eleanor speculates: > I was wondering whether Tom Riddle could have written the Valentine. > I can picture Ginny writing in her diary, "Dear Tom, I want to send > Harry a Valentine but I don't know what to say!" and him replying. We > know he's good at wordplay (that infamous anagram) and then the rhyme > uses the term "Dark Lord", which only Death Eaters normally use. I > noticed that when Malfoy accused Ginny of sending the Valentine, she > didn't deny it. But then she did have other things on her mind. > > It would have to have been written a long time in advance, though, > before she threw the diary away. > > Eleanor imamommy: Hi Eleanor, I like your name; that's my 9-mo-old baby girl's name! Anyway, I had wondered about her writing it while possessed by TR. was he still able to control her *after* she threw away the diary? What about Dobby writing the message? Not so much as a romantic gesture, but a "I wish he were my master" kind of thing? Dobby does have a certain infatuation with Harry. The reference to "the Dark Lord", also, Dobby does refer to Voldy as such one time and that would surely be how he was refered to at the Malfoy's. Somebody mentioned that Dobby has green eyes, too... imamommy From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 03:12:15 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 03:12:15 -0000 Subject: Boggart/ Patronus Musings - Quote Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105399 > Carol wrote: snip. > > As for Lupin, who of course isn't an animagus and certainly wouldn't > have a werewolf Patronus, I think we don't see his Patronus because he > can't quite cast one, DADA instructor or not. All we see on both his > attempts is a bright light from his wand. Alla: I disagree. I think Lupin's Patronus is just fine. ;) I believe it is kept secret from us for plot reasons. Lupin's Patronus was strong enough after all to scare off Dementor on the train. By the way, we don't see Dumbledore's patronus either, when he scares off dementos at the match. Hermione just says: "Then he whirled his wand at the Dementors. Shot silver stuff at them"- POA, p.136, British edition Are you saying that since we did not see it, Dumbledore is not powerful wizard? Carol: Not particularly good with > potions or he wouldn't rely on Snape, not as good as his friends at > Transfiguration or he wouldn't have to study for the O.W.L., so in his > year as DADA instructor he teaches about Dark creatures. (I can see > why his interests might lie in that direction, poor man, and I suppose > the subject is more appropriate for third years than defensive spells, > but I'm guessing he taught the same thing in all his classes > regardless of level.) Despite his involvement in making the map and > his knowledge of the theoretical aspects of casting a Patronus, I > don't think Lupin is a particularly powerful wizard. Pretty good with > boggarts, though, and a nice guy if you ignore his many sins of > omission--things he should have done but didn't (but I've already > listed them in a previous post). > Alla: Potions are not Lupin's area of expertise. How do you know that Lupin taught the same thing to all his classes regardless of year? I think he is a very good DADA instructor. Better than Snape , anyways. :o) His sins of omissions, meaning not interfering in the Pensieve Scene? From snow15145 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 03:14:51 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 03:14:51 -0000 Subject: The HBP (or more likely How to Discredit all my future theorys!!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105400 Chris wrote: 3. (not likely) Harry defeats Voldemort in Book 6 or earlyish in Book 7 and the rest of the story is about the fallout/reprisals of the Dark Lord's death. Snow: I've always had a feeling that it was never just about killing off LV. The story line is much deeper than that. There is a quote from Rowlings that actually supports my suspicion: The Connection October 12,1999 (Q)Why 7 and what is the contour that you want to complete? (A)" Also, it will take 7 books to get Harry to the point where he has to face, um I can't say. But in Book 7, you know, there's a big climax coming here and it will take that many books to get him there." If she can't um say what Harry has to face, shouldn't it have been um Voldemort? It took 7 books to get him to face Voldemort. Right? Well no I guess not! So what then is her objective? What "does" Harry have to face then? I'm not exactly sure what Harry must fight but I'm sure it doesn't all come down to Voldemort. I don't think this is the whole story. JKR says it's going to be a big climax. I trust her. She has never let us down. Look at any of the endings to any of the books, didn't you honestly think, how is Harry going to get out of this one, Especially in GOF? I know I was sitting on the edge of my seat for that one. If Voldemort is vanquished in book 6 or even early on in book 7, what is Harry fighting? In conclusion, of course I have no canon because it has not been presented, yet! I think it's worth thinking about "What" Harry has to face in the end. Could any of us have guessed what the ending was in any of the books? Given the um "given", what does the ending hold? I'm certain that it's more than we have imagined! If Voldemort isn't the um ending, what is? If you notice all the posts, Voldemort isn't really much of a topic. However we have had several people in the books that have captivated us to the nth degree, literally. Of all of the captivating people (who I don't feel a need to point out who they would be) Dumbledore is the ultimate candidate, for me, as the most interesting topic. Why oh why did he or did he not? Like book five, I have a lot more questions than answers! Snow From griffyr29 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 00:19:39 2004 From: griffyr29 at yahoo.com (griffyr29) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 00:19:39 -0000 Subject: The HBP (or more likely How to Discredit all my future theories!!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105401 Chris wrote: > 1. (sensible) > > The HBP is Tom Riddle (not necessairly Voldemort but Tom Riddle - > a past version or Harry learns more about Head Boy Riddle or > something else.) > > 4. (possible) > > Dumbledore is the HBP. We know nothing of his parentage and he > played a major part in CoS, getting suspended and the whole > loyalty thing. Chris, We know that V's mother died giving birth to him, but we know little else about her other than that she was a witch. Perhaps she had children in a previous marriage. That would make those children "half- blood" (in the more Muggle sense) relatives of V. I'm also thinking that Snape would fit in nicely as a descendant. Am I cracked, or a genius? -griffyr29. From texas.aggie4 at verizon.net Sat Jul 10 02:44:14 2004 From: texas.aggie4 at verizon.net (genma99) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 02:44:14 -0000 Subject: HBP & the Weasleys In-Reply-To: <20040709223214.95120.qmail@web41214.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105402 Bill wrote: > If the Weasleys are the true heirs, wouldn't the oldest son be the > one in line, instead of Ron or even Percy ? Well, I suppose I wasn't thinking of royalty in a literal sense. I was thinking it was more metaphorical, such as Arthur would be the "king" of the halfbloods. A king of the people, if you will... The only reason I speculated Ron or Percy is because I believe that the two of them will play the biggest roles of the Weasley brothers. Ron, obviously important... Percy will be, in my opinion, important because JKR has hinted that he very well may redeem himself (http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/MTarchives/004754.html) and we must keep in mind that the Sorting Hat put him in Gryffindor, contrary to how he has been acting thus far. As far as I know, the Sorting Hat isn't wrong (Even Pettigrew, I think... remember his debt to Harry). Personally, I believe he'll come around in grand fashion. > "genma99": Third, JKR has mentioned that muggles will begin to notice > more of the wizard world. Pandrea: > I haven't heard this before, can you tell me more please? Certainly. From an online chat with Scholastic on World Book Day: Q: Are the Muggle and Magical worlds ever going to be rejoined? A: No, the breach was final, although as book six shows, the Muggles are noticing more and more odd happenings now that Voldemort's back. All speculation of course... "genma99" From aandj at labyrinth.net.au Sat Jul 10 03:08:40 2004 From: aandj at labyrinth.net.au (Jocelyn Grunow) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 14:08:40 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HBP & the Weasleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105403 on 10/7/2004 10:30 AM, caspenzoe at cruthw at earthlink.net wrote: > Back to your question however, personally, it'd be neater if Ron had > turned out to be a 7th Weasley son (with all the legendary > connotations of the same), as that would bolster this speculation. > However, of course he's the 6th son. Hence my speculation about > Ginny. If a son were lost at birth I wonder if that would count? Does it have to be seven LIVING sons? I recall that in Orson Scott Card's Seventh Son trilogy, it has to be seven living sons, but I don't recall any other use of the tale which required that. Jocelyn From jlawlor at gmail.com Sat Jul 10 03:20:14 2004 From: jlawlor at gmail.com (James Lawlor) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:20:14 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: COS musings/questions (long) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96773c880407092020289c24a@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105404 > Ellen: > > Strange you should bring that last up because in the movie, not the > book, Harry doesn't know exactly how close he was to being dead, right > there. I assume that everyone noticed exactly what Lucius Malfoy was > starting to say as he raised his wand? It's not in the book, and the > word could only have come from JKR herself, as it doesn't come up until > GoF. Hm! From the first time I saw the CoS movie I thought it sounded like Lucius was saying "Avada Kedavra". It didn't necessarily have to come from JKR herself, since GoF was published in 2000 and the movie released in 2002 (right?). But it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Lucius isn't stupid - he knows better than to use and unforgiveable curse on Harry Potter just down the hall from Dumbledore. That would certainly blow his cover as a DE and land him in Azkaban for life*. *Or until the sixth book anyway - James Lawlor jlawlor at gmail.com From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Sat Jul 10 03:40:13 2004 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 03:40:13 -0000 Subject: Thestrals and Quirrels Death In-Reply-To: <20040710005014.55398.qmail@web13526.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105405 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ms Mo Me wrote: > We all know that if you wittness death, you can see > thestrals. > > Well, didn't Harry see Professor Quirrel die in PS/SS? > So, Shouldn't he be able to see Thestrals by book 2? JKR answered that on her website. He did not witness Quirrel's death as he was unconscious, nor his parents' deaths (he was in his cot). What I don't understand though is why he is able to see the thestrals after Cedric's death considering he did not see Cedric die either - he had his face covered and eyes closed due to the pain in his scar. When he opened them, Cedric was already dead. Salit From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sat Jul 10 03:56:39 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 03:56:39 -0000 Subject: Boggart/ Patronus Musings - Quote Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105406 > > Carol wrote: > > As for Lupin, who of course isn't an animagus and certainly > > wouldn't have a werewolf Patronus, I think we don't see his > > Patronus because he can't quite cast one, DADA instructor or > > not. All we see on both his attempts is a bright light from his > > wand. > Alla responded: > > I disagree. I think Lupin's Patronus is just fine. ;) I believe it > is kept secret from us for plot reasons. Lupin's Patronus was > strong enough after all to scare off Dementor on the train. > By the way, we don't see Dumbledore's patronus either, when he > scares off dementos at the match. > > Hermione just says: > > "Then he whirled his wand at the Dementors. Shot silver stuff at > them"- POA, p.136, British edition > > Are you saying that since we did not see it, Dumbledore is not > powerful wizard? Jen: There's the whole issue of a corporal patronus being cast, which seems to indicate a non-corporal patronus exists as well. But like Alla, I don't think Lupin has a problem with his Patronus ;). I suspect it's either a plot device as Alla said, or powerful wizards do not have to cast a corporal Patonus to get the job done. Facing only one Dementor, Lupin may only need to blast a bit of silvery stuff for the Dementor to move on. Carol: > > Despite his involvement in making the map and > > his knowledge of the theoretical aspects of casting a Patronus, I > > don't think Lupin is a particularly powerful wizard. Pretty good > > with boggarts, though, and a nice guy if you ignore his many > > sins of omission--things he should have done but didn't (but > > I've already listed them in a previous post). Jen: Aack--Lupin sounds so pathetic from your description, Carol! He impressed me from the beginning as very powerful, but not in a flashy way. The magic we do see Lupin perform is almost effortless, much like Dumbledore. Like creating a handful of flames without a word and vanishing a Boggart 'lazily'. He only mutters the incantation to create the Patronus on the train. And I think there's more to come. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 03:58:32 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 03:58:32 -0000 Subject: Goyle was not at MOM and is not in Azkaban In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105407 Valky wrote: Maybe he's the one they left behind injured in the prophecy room, that Hermione had stunned. "Harry put his ear close to the door to listen and heard Lucius Malfoy roar, 'Leave Nott, leave him. I say - his injuries will be nothing to the Dark Lord compared to losing that prophecy'" > > > Potioncat responded: > I think that is Nott they are leaving. If it appears as you list > it, he is saying "Leave Nott"...rather than "Leave, Nott" > > Which of course, leaves young Theo Nott in a precarious situation > with no parents to take care of him. > Potioncat Carol: Right. It's definitely Nott who was injured. But what about the Baby-headed Death Eater? I know that someone on this list did a lot of thinking about his identity and came up with either Rabastan Lestrange (and I don't think it's him because I think he was in a threesome with Rodolphus and Bellatrix after his partner fell) and one other person on the list of twelve. But if the names are given after the DE gets stuck in the time warp or whatever it is, isn't it still possible that it's Goyle? Otherwise Gregory Goyle's decision to stay on as one of Draco's cronies doesn't make much sense. Or rather, Draco and Goyld Jr. might have shunned *him.* There's also the possibility (dare I say it) of a flint--a simple oversight? JKR intended to include him in Malfoy's list but inadvertently left him out? (After all, if she can confuse the order of James' and Lily's deaths--and throw this list into confusion for two days--she's not infallible.) Crabbe without Goyle is like Fred without George. Where is he? Carol, who has wondered about Goyle Sr. since she first read OoP and who shares Potioncat's concern for young Theo From enderbean01 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 03:56:19 2004 From: enderbean01 at yahoo.com (Miyuki Takagi) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 20:56:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Boggart/ Patronus Musings - Quote Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040710035619.31716.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105408 Carol: >not as good as his friends at > Transfiguration or he wouldn't have to study for the O.W.L., enderbean: I'd have to disagree with you on that. Just because you study doesn't mean you don't know the material. Lupin seems to me the type of guy that would go over and over the material until he took the test. You know, one of those over-achieving A+ students. Studying just shows he's responsible not that he's particularly bad at the subject. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From HP5Freak at aol.com Sat Jul 10 04:10:45 2004 From: HP5Freak at aol.com (HP5Freak at aol.com) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 00:10:45 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Goyle was not at MOM and is not in Azkaban Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105409 Amber: Delurking for a brief moment to say that there is an EXCELLENT analysis on Steve Van der Ark's site about the Death Eaters in the DoM, and who was where when. I don't remember if the person figures out who got their head stuck in time (the baby headed DE) but it does identify probabilities. Just my....*scrounges in couch* 2 Sickles and 1, 2, uh...3 Knuts Amber, pulls on shadows of Lurking again....disapparates into the crowd... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From karenbjhess at hotmail.com Sat Jul 10 04:00:29 2004 From: karenbjhess at hotmail.com (Karen Hess) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 00:00:29 -0400 Subject: COS musings/questions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105410 leb wrote: >In ch 18 Dobby's Reward -- >Harry gives the diary back to Lucius. > >And lastly from the same chapter . . . does anyone else get a chill that >Harry tells Dobby "Just promise never to try and save my life again." >Knowing how literal house elves can be this could turn out to be Harry's >downfall in the end! KB now: Read on! Dobby *doesn't* promise. The next line is "The elf's ugly brown face split suddenly into a wide, toothy smile." (CoS, p. 249, Can. ed.) Then Harry goes on and changes the subject. Ellen said: Strange you should bring that last up because in the movie, not the book, Harry doesn't know exactly how close he was to being dead, right there. I assume that everyone noticed exactly what Lucius Malfoy was starting to say as he raised his wand? It's not in the book, and the word could only have come from JKR herself, as it doesn't come up until GoF. KB adds: I know this isn't the place to post comments about the movies, but I find that the scriptwriter and director sometimes take advantage of "canon" available in the subsequent books. (For example, IMO, foreshadowing a relationship between Ron and Hermione -- but no way am I going there!) In the book (CoS, p. 247, Can. ed.), there is a point where "Harry distinctly saw [Lucius Malfoy's] right hand twitch as though he was longing to reach for his wand" but that is while he is talking to DD, before the incident with the sock. After the sock incident, he first "lunged at Harry" whereupon Dobby intervened, then after being thrown down the stairs, Lucius "got up... and pulled out his wand." (p. 248) Lucius doesn't say anything, though. Dobby doesn't give him the chance. Ellen, I'm not sure if I understand the meaning of the comment "the word could only have come from JKR herself, as it doesn't come up until GoF." The book was published in 2000 and the CoS movie was released at the end of 2002. Maybe the term came directly from JKR (did you mean in spoken conversation?), but I think it's more likely to have come from reading GoF. KB - who thinks the word "ship" should properly be reserved for seagoing vessels and such :-) _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN Premium. Get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 04:01:58 2004 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 04:01:58 -0000 Subject: Boggart/ Patronus Musings - Quote Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105411 Jen: > There's the whole issue of a corporal patronus being cast, > which seems to indicate a non-corporal patronus exists as well. But > like Alla, I don't think Lupin has a problem with his Patronus ;). I > suspect it's either a plot device as Alla said, or powerful wizards > do not have to cast a corporal Patonus to get the job done. Facing > only one Dementor, Lupin may only need to blast a bit of silvery > stuff for the Dementor to move on. Katie: Is it possible that *only* the wizard casting the Patronus can see its true form? (I know, it's only a one-liner, but what else can I say?) Katie (who is still waiting for someone to disprove her Snape HBP theory!) From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 04:19:14 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 04:19:14 -0000 Subject: Boggart/ Patronus Musings - Quote Lupin In-Reply-To: <20040710035619.31716.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105412 > enderbean wrote: > I'd have to disagree with you on that. Just because you study doesn't mean you don't know the material. Lupin seems to me the type of guy that would go over and over the material until he took the test. You know, one of those over-achieving A+ students. Studying just shows he's responsible not that he's particularly bad at the subject. Alla: And don't forget our dear Hermione, who is studying and studying and studying... :o) I would not call her a bad student either. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 04:34:59 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 04:34:59 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited--emotional maturity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105414 Katie asked: (By the way, speaking of "attacking schoolmates just because they > exist", why on earth does James behave the way he does? He seems > honestly quite sadistic in the Pensieve scene to me, yet he doesn't > get .1% of the criticism that Sirius does.) Carol responds: That's an interesting question. Could it be that most of us see James in exactly the same way: an "arrogant little berk" and a bully at fifteen, redeemed somewhat by saving Severus (whom he still hates) from the werewolf a year later and fully redeemed (in the reader's eyes if not in Snape's) by fighting Voldemort to the death trying to save his wife and son? Young James is, IMO, impossible to like, and his reasons for saving Severus are probably a mixture of selfishness and nobility, but by the end of his short life, he seems to have grown up and become worthy of admiration. I think there are very few James bashers because there are no James worshippers, either. He's a straightforward character about whom most of us have no strong feelings. Sirius and Snape, on the other hand, are complex characters whoe motives are less clear than James' and who have an odd mixture of character traits. I personally prefer Snape with his wit, sarcasm, obvious intelligence, surprising courage, and air of mystery to Sirius (I really ought to call him Black to make them parallel) with his arrogance, reckless bravado, understandable depression, and rather desperate affection for Harry. But I understand why others are attracted to Sirius and try to defend him, just as I hope the Snape bashers understand the compulsion of Snape fans (not apologists, please: he's not Voldemort) to defend him. To return to James--I think there's no question that, in the end, he showed true courage, and for that reason no one feels that he needs defending. Either that, or his actions in the Pensieve scene *can't* be defended (you don't hex someone "because he exists," you stupid little berk!) and so no one even tries. You simply dislike the young James and admire (or grudgingly accept) the slightly older James, and that's that. At any rate, that's my view. Just out of curiosity, are there any James fans on the list? If so, please step forward and defend your favorite character. I'd like to hear how I've got poor James all wrong. Carol From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sat Jul 10 04:35:42 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 04:35:42 -0000 Subject: Boggart/ Patronus Musings - Quote Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105415 > Jen: > > There's the whole issue of a corporal patronus being cast, > > which seems to indicate a non-corporal patronus exists as well. > But > > like Alla, I don't think Lupin has a problem with his Patronus ;). > I > > suspect it's either a plot device as Alla said, or powerful > wizards > > do not have to cast a corporal Patonus to get the job done. Facing > > only one Dementor, Lupin may only need to blast a bit of silvery > > stuff for the Dementor to move on. > Katie: > Is it possible that *only* the wizard casting the Patronus can see > its true form? (I know, it's only a one-liner, but what else can I > say?) Jen: Except Dumbledore saw the form Harry's Patronus took at the Quidditch match. I wonder if people can hide their Patronus forms? I'm not sure what purpose that would serve, though. Unless it's such a personal/private image that you don't want everyone to see its form. It still makes sense to me that powerful wizards don't need to cast a corporeal* Patronus for protection. *Spelled it right this time! > Katie > (who is still waiting for someone to disprove her Snape HBP theory!) Jen, who likes a challenge and is off to read Katie's theory ;). From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 04:40:03 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 04:40:03 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105416 Alla: Kneasy, if this is the position taken by Snape advocates, I actually have nothing to debate. I am in perfect understanding and agreement of such position. If Snape's abusiveness, revengefullness, pettiness ,shalowness, etc. is duly acknowledged , but despite all that people like Snape as interesting character and want to know his motivations, I think I understand that. Believe it or not, I also really, really want to know Snape's back story. I am curious, if nothing else. I want to argue when what Snape does is JUSTIFIED, because he MAY have best intentions in mind. (No, I am not saying people cannot have such opinions, I am saying that I usually want to challenge them) Because to me even if Snape has good intentions toward Harry, at face value what he does cannot be justified. vmonte responds: I agree with you Alla. I read a JKR interview where someone asked why DD hired Snape to teach. JKR said something like: 'he felt that one of life's lessons are that you sometimes have to deal with people like Snape, and he felt that they could learn something from him (I'm really paraphrasing). Months ago I posted the idea that DD might have Snape at the school as another training tool for the children. DD always helps HRH by supplying them with information and tools they eventually use. Just like he supplied the mirror of erised to Harry so that he would know how it worked when he confronted Voldemort at the end of SS/PS. It seems clear to me (IMO) that Dumbledore is a military strategist. There is a 2500 year old treatise on war called The Art of War. Alexander, Hannibal, Caesar, Napoleon, Lee, Patton, and many more have read and used what they learned from this treatise. Anyway, there is a famous line in it: Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer. If DD is in fact a strategist he may have Snape at the school so that he can keep an eye on him, and so that the children can learn something from him. How does a DE think? Act? What are their weaknesses? It's difficult to understand why DD would hire an ex DE. The only thing I can think of is that he felt that it was important somehow. What would you do if it was your responsibility to make some really hard choices? What if you felt that the WW was going to get wiped out? Why have Snape in direct contact with children if he doesn't trust him enough to teach DADA. It sounds like he believes that Snape could harm a child. I know that Snape could also kill in the potions class if he wanted to, but I think that teaching DADA is different somehow. Snape is not level headed. He's got a short fuse. In all fairness it could also be that the children need to learn a potion that will save somone's life or something. I sure hope they learn it fast since there's only 2 books to go. I also hope that DD doesn't think that Snape will lay down his life for Harry, because I really doubt it. I still like Snape as character. I just am glad I don't know him personally. vivian From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 04:47:01 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 04:47:01 -0000 Subject: HBP & the Weasleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105417 "genma99" wrote: >From an online chat with Scholastic on World Book Day: Q: Are the Muggle and Magical worlds ever going to be rejoined? A: No, the breach was final, although as book six shows, the Muggles are noticing more and more odd happenings now that Voldemort's back. vmonte Responds: Is this fuel for the attack at Privett Drive theories... vivian From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sat Jul 10 04:53:26 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 04:53:26 -0000 Subject: Goyle was not at MOM and is not in Azkaban In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105418 wrote: > Carol: But what about the Baby-headed Death Eater? I know that someone on this list did a lot of thinking about his identity and came up with either Rabastan Lestrange > (and I don't think it's him because I think he was in a threesome with Rodolphus and Bellatrix after his partner fell) and one other person on the list of twelve. But if the names are given after the DE gets stuck in the time warp or whatever it is, isn't it still possible that it's Goyle? Otherwise Gregory Goyle's decision to stay on as one of Draco's cronies doesn't make much sense. Or rather, Draco and Goyle Jr. might have shunned *him.* There's also the possibility (dare I say it) of a flint--a simple oversight? JKR intended to include him in Malfoy's list but inadvertently left him out? (After all, if she can confuse the order of James' and Lily's deaths--and throw this list into confusion for two days--she's not infallible.) > Valky: I think Carol, that this reads much more like a deliberate puzzle than a Flint. It has logic puzzle written all over it, I think, now that I've had a good look, like Snapes Philos Stone protection. 'scuse me while I get out my pencil. From enderbean01 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 04:48:16 2004 From: enderbean01 at yahoo.com (Miyuki Takagi) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 21:48:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Boggart/ Patronus Musings - Quote Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040710044816.60945.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105419 Katie: Is it possible that *only* the wizard casting the Patronus can see its true form? (I know, it's only a one-liner, but what else can I say?) enderbean: No. Remember how Lupin freaks out about seeing Harry's patronus? He saw the stag and he thought of James. And all those people in Harry's DADA owl, they asked to see his patronus and he showed him it. If it takes on a defined shape I think that shows you're doing it right. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 05:02:34 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 05:02:34 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Cemetery and Hogwarts: A History In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105420 Pandrea (I think) wrote:> Incidentally, another question I'd like answered is why the three > remaining Founders carried on having a Slytherin House. Since they > didn't believe in its precepts, why not disband it and divide up > students between the three of them from then on? Either the school > was created in such a way that it was not possible, or it truly > served a good purpose to have a Slytherin House - if so, what? Carol: I think the ambitious, cunning pureblood types (and a few half bloods brought up in the Slytherin tradition) would *want* their own house. Draco makes it plain in SS/PS that he'd be humiliated if he were sorted into Hufflepuff (not that he would be). He certainly lacks the courage to be sorted into Gryffindor, so that leaves only Ravenclaw, where the reasonably intelligent but not very bookish Draco would definitely not feel at home. And Crabbe and Goyle would have to go into Hufflepuff even though they're neither loyal nor hardworking simply out of the Hufflepuff tradition of teaching "the rest." Pansy Parkinson, as well. It's even possible that the other teachers wouldn't really want ambitious, cunning, any-means-to-an-end Slytherin types in their houses, but it would be suicidal for the school to deny them admission. It might even create enmity between Hogwarts and Durmstrang, which would become the default school for those students. No, better to take them all and reduce the enmity to interhouse rivalry, hoping (perhaps futilely) to create intraschool unity at the same time. Carol, who wonders what Theo Nott or Severus Snape would have thought of being placed in Ravenclaw From Madydea at aol.com Sat Jul 10 04:53:44 2004 From: Madydea at aol.com (Madydea at aol.com) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 00:53:44 EDT Subject: Wands - again Message-ID: <1c0.1b76cf97.2e20d058@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105421 KB writes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105422 Carol: > I think there are very few James > bashers because there are no James worshippers, either. He's a > straightforward character about whom most of us have no strong > feelings. Katie: Wow, that's really sharp! It didn't occur to me before, but you're right: the most-loved characters are frequently the most virulently hated. I think it's funny that Kneasy has divided HP fans into Sirius and Snape fans, because from the posts I've read lately, they don't actually seem to be two distinct groups at all. In fact, I'd say that the two often go together; just look at SSSusan's name. (A rather Parseltongue-esque name when you abbreviate it, hehe!) Carol: > To return to James--I think there's no question that, in the end, he > showed true courage, and for that reason no one feels that he needs > defending. Either that, or his actions in the Pensieve scene *can't* > be defended (you don't hex someone "because he exists," you stupid > little berk!) and so no one even tries. You simply dislike the young > James and admire (or grudgingly accept) the slightly older James, and > that's that. At any rate, that's my view. Katie: Yeah, James comes off as a right li'l bastard in that scene to me. I'm more forgiving of Sirius and Remus in that scene because we see a lot more of them later on, and frankly, unless we're missing some big piece of information, it DOES seem like Severus is being bullied unfairly. I suppose that's the only *direct* exposure to James we ever get. If it's any indication, Harry has much more in common with his mom. But I may well change my opinion once we find out more about James. Carol: > Just out of curiosity, are there any James fans on the list? If so, > please step forward and defend your favorite character. I'd like to > hear how I've got poor James all wrong. For that matter, I'd looove to hear someone explain how the Malfoys are misunderstood. They seem so purely dreadful. Any takers? -Katie who doesn't hate any non-eeevil characters but thinks OOTP Percy deserves a swift kick in the behind From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 04:57:12 2004 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 04:57:12 -0000 Subject: Boggart/ Patronus Musings - Quote Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105423 > > Katie: > > Is it possible that *only* the wizard casting the Patronus can > > see its true form? > Jen: Except Dumbledore saw the form Harry's Patronus took at the > Quidditch match. Katie: Whoops! Knew I missed something there. (Maybe Dumbledore's just a special guy? :) From Madydea at aol.com Sat Jul 10 04:59:40 2004 From: Madydea at aol.com (Madydea at aol.com) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 00:59:40 EDT Subject: Tom Riddle in CoS Message-ID: <42.527d3d37.2e20d1bc@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105424 Do you think memory Tom knew what had happened to LV since he made the MemoryTom? I'm not sure he was aware of all the going on's. Do you suppose Mr. Malfoy was able to write in the Diary and tell him what was going on? What did Mr. Malfoy hope to gain from passing on the Diary? If he was hoping to bring Tom back so he could become LV again (and the killings) would that make Mr. Malfoy a 'good' DE? Sonya [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sat Jul 10 05:22:53 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 05:22:53 -0000 Subject: Snape as the HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105425 > Katie: > I was just thinking about this. Consider: > 1. Sirius says the pureblood families are all related. > 2. But Snape is not mentioned as being on the tapestry. > (Wouldn't Harry have noticed if he was?) > 3. We see a snippet of Snape's family background. I bet this comes > up again. > 4. There's something VERY important about Snape that JKR hasn't > told us. > > Therefore: Snape is the HBP! Jen: It would be interesting to find out Snape is half-blood, if only to understand him better. It would mean he rejected his Muggle heritage, much like Tom Riddle, and followed a path similar to Tom, hanging out with a gang of like-minded Slytherins who went on the become DE's. Unfortunately, I'm not sure the tapestry is enough evidence to say Snape isn't pureblood. Harry scans the tapestry quickly at the beginning of the scene, then only looks at the names Sirius points to after that. Sirius is the one leaning close, looking intently, etc. With seven generations of families on the tapestry, I suspect it was very large and the writing very miniscule. A quick scan wouldn't pick up branches of other families that spread away from the Blacks. I would love to find out Snape and Sirius were cousins! Wouldn't that be an interesting backstory?!? Growing up together, Snape experimenting with the Dark Arts and Sirius rejecting everything his family stands for? As to Snape=HBP, it's always a possibility. The books never say Snape (or James for that matter) is pureblood. I think though, because of the literal way JKR creates her titles, the Half Blood Prince will be the most obvious person--Tom Riddle. He played a big part in COS, she considered naming the second book HBP, and Riddle's backstory could easily be the information JKR moved from Book 2 to Book 6. And she told us on World Book Day that we will find out more about the 'mysterious circumstances' surrounding Tom Riddle's birth. Now seems as good a time as any, don't you think?!? Jen From ms-tamany at rcn.com Sat Jul 10 05:23:05 2004 From: ms-tamany at rcn.com (ms_tamany) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 05:23:05 -0000 Subject: Thestrals and Quirrels Death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105426 > Ms Mo Me said: > > > We all know that if you wittness death, you can see > > thestrals. > > > > Well, didn't Harry see Professor Quirrel die in PS/SS? > > So, Shouldn't he be able to see Thestrals by book 2? > > > Then Salit answered: > > JKR answered that on her website. He did not witness Quirrel's > death as he was unconscious, nor his parents' deaths (he was in > his cot). > What I don't understand though is why he is able to see the > thestrals after Cedric's death considering he did not see Cedric > die either - he had his face covered and eyes closed due to the > pain in his scar. When he opened them, Cedric was already dead. > > Salit Now I (Tammy) reply to Salit's question: You said it yourself, right at the first, there. 'Witness'. Harry was unconcious at the end of PS/SS and didn't WITNESS Quirrel's death. Harry was in his cot at GH and much too young to actually WITNESS his parents' deaths. However, even with his eyes closed, he WITNESSED Cedric's death -- he heard it, he was right there when it happened, he *knew* what was happening, he could see the flash even through his closed eyelids. If Harry had been asked to testify in court about Cedric's death, that ear-witness would have been sufficient to admit as evidence. Then he opened his eyes and saw death -- Cedric's dead body, right there beside him, staring out at nothing. He hasn't seen anyone else dead yet, has he? Cedric was his first dead body, right? Myrtle and NHNick and the other ghosts don't count -- they're not dead BODIES, just dead PEOPLE. So, Harry (ear-)witnessed Cedric's death, and then looked right at Cedric's fresh corpse, and this is the first time Harry's ever been intimately and immediately involved with another person's dying. I think that certainly qualifies as 'seeing death'. --- *** Tammy Rizzo ms-tamany at rcn.com From caesian at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 05:28:02 2004 From: caesian at yahoo.com (caesian) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 05:28:02 -0000 Subject: HP and the Half Blood Git In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105427 In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, message # 105304, "ge25y" suggested Snape as the HBP. I agree. Many possibilities are intriguing (Lupin, Hagrid, Dumbledore,...) but Snape's mystery is already driving the plot. I posted a theory that Snape's father, and his heritable long greasy hair, have already been spotted in the books (post # 96654 & 96813). If this is accurate, his mother would be a muggle, or muggle-born. (Harry, whose mother is muggle-born, was considered a "half-blood" by Voldemort, according to Dumbledore.) And while I'm at it, Snape (a fictional character, I know) has been irritating me. Again. I don't understand any better than the next HP fan why such a large number of my fellows might want to be sorted into Slytherin. They did Read the books, right? But this is not what irritates me. I'm OK with the subtlety of Albus Dumbledore allowing Snape to terrorize a generation of students - to their detriment - to no other purpose than the possible defeat of Voldemort. I'm OK with Snape being a jerk. So long as he stays on his page, I love it. On the other hand, those who ascribe secret good intentions to the character of Snape make my brain hurt and my blood insulin soar worse than a quickly consumed pint of Hagendaaz (strawberry). He's a mean evil jerk for the good of Harry and Neville? No. And what makes my angst worse is that people who post these ideas are smart and cool. I read and Respect their posts (the analogy is to Hagendaaz strawberry, after all). Some might say that a central message in the Septology is that the world is not divided into Good People and Death Eaters. I would agree. But in the case of Snape, I'll guide that point to it's logical conclusion - that the world is not divided into Death Eaters and people who aren't Evil Gits. Snape might not be a Death Eater. He might be helping Dumbledore. He might even die a heroic death in glorious sacrifice for Harry, or some such. But he Is evil. Not irredeemable (if Tom Riddle can experience forgiveness, who can't?). But alot worse than "not a nice guy". He's a bad guy. He might not be a death eater, but that doesn't make him good. And so I hope the HBP is our proud, nasty Potions Master. Voldemort and Tom Riddle may not remain a cardboard Villain, or so I hope. Snape, on the other hand, is already perhaps the most compelling character in the books. I want to know why. Caesian From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 05:47:21 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 05:47:21 -0000 Subject: The Mirror and the Heart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105428 Neri wrote: Nope, I find it much more probable that DD suspected LV was around and trying to steal the Stone, but he didn't know where exactly is LV hiding, and he didn't suspect it is so close, or he wouldn't have left Hogwarts. It seems Snape was working on his own without consulting DD. He probably felt that in order to get even with James' memory he must save Harry by himself.<< SSSusan again: So if DD did have an inkling that Voldy was close by somewhere, does that support my theory at all, that the whole thing was set up as a test for Harry? That that's why DD didn't DO more about this information? I mean, how can DD know so MUCH sometimes and then NOT know things like this? That frustrates me as a reader! Neri again: It certainly frustrates me. As I wrote here in the past, I don't buy omniscient!DD, nor puppet- master!DD. I think DD doesn't know much (though still more than any other character) so he has to operate mainly by hunches. Most of the times he gets it right, but he can't be right all the time. DD knew or guessed that LV was after the Stone, but he didn't know any details. Sending Hagrid to take the Stone out of vault 713 just before Quirrell broke into it was one hell of a hunch, but IMO it was still just a hunch. Then there were more and more indications that LV is trying to infiltrate into Hogwarts too, so DD gradually increased security. We know Fluffy was already at his station in the beginning of the school year, but the defenses of the other teachers were perhaps added only later, and we know for sure that the final defense, the Mirror, was set only after Christmas. This all smells of hunches, and when you operate by hunches you're bound to get it wrong sometime. How much had DD planed the Harry-finding-the-Stone-in-the-Mirror scenario from the outset? I don't know. There are certainly some inconsistencies in DD's official explanation of how it worked. But there are also inconsistencies in the pensieve or the time travel stories. We shouldn't dig TOO deep into them. This is after all a story and not RL. The general meaning of the Mirror setup, if not the exact details, is clear from DD's explanation: only someone with a sincere, unselfish intention could have found the Stone. So I don't think DD set this as a test for Harry. It looks very much like a test because it IS indeed a test. Only it is a test (or rather, a trial) that was set for Harry by JKR. There IS after all a puppet-master and an omniscient around here, but it is JKR, not DD. We frequently mistake JKR schemes for DD schemes because he is JKR's oracle in the story. I'm also not sure where exactly the line between the passes. Maybe even JKR herself is not exactly sure where it passes. But if the main theme of HP is indeed choices, then in the level of the plot they are real choices, not DD playing games with Harry and us. Neri From greatraven at hotmail.com Sat Jul 10 05:50:21 2004 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 05:50:21 -0000 Subject: James, the arrogant little berk (was: Sirius revisited--emotional maturity) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105429 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "anthyroserain" wrote: > > Carol: > > Just out of curiosity, are there any James fans on the list? If so, > > please step forward and defend your favorite character. I'd like to > > hear how I've got poor James all wrong. > > For that matter, I'd looove to hear someone explain how the Malfoys > are misunderstood. They seem so purely dreadful. Any takers? > > -Katie > who doesn't hate any non-eeevil characters but thinks OOTP Percy > deserves a swift kick in the behind Sue: I'm not a James fan, but in all fairness, he did improve. It was he, not Sirius, who ended up stopping the Prank before it got out of hand, and may very well have been ashamed of himself and what he had done by then. Maybe this is why he eventually appealed to Lily. If he wasn't basically decent underneath, she wouldn't have wanted him, would she? Of course, from what was implied in OOTP, he didn't stop picking on Snape, even when he was going out with Lily, but he may have kept it down to a manageable level. He was just immature, as a lot of otherwise nice boys can be at that age. I know - I work with teenagers and there are two boys I have privately labelled "James and Sirius" - they make me laugh, too, and are bright lads, but some parents don't like them visiting! Whether they'd pick on others, I don't know - but then, not even Professor McGonagall said anything during that pub conversation about, "They were a bit like the Weasleys, but they were bullies..." and I suspect she would have noticed if anyteacher would. :-) As for the Malfoys ... Lucius is a villain, no doubt about it. But Draco may just be the product of his upbringing. From what we saw in CoS, he was brought up to think Dark Magic was fine. Yes, I know that Sirius rebelled against a similar upbringing, but not everyone can or would. I will be interested to see what happens in the next two books. Will he work at getting revenge on Harry for what happened to his father? Or will his father eventually betray him and maybe he will suddenly realise he's been had and change? From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sat Jul 10 06:10:00 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 06:10:00 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? (Was Re: Sirius revisited--emotional maturity) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105431 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Katie asked: > (By the way, speaking of "attacking schoolmates just because they exist", why on earth does James behave the way he does? He seems honestly quite sadistic in the Pensieve scene to me, yet he doesn't get .1% of the criticism that Sirius does.) > > Carol responds: > Could it be that most of us see James in exactly the same way: Young James is, IMO, impossible to like, Valky: Impossible? to like. Even Lily registered ever so slight amusement at James' 'berky' behaviour. I would say 'impossible' is a faaaaar stretch at best. Yes here I am! James Potter Fan numero uno! and Yes, I have done this before, so I am an old hat. Sharpen your Snape fangs Carol. ;D Carol: > and his reasons for saving Severus are probably a mixture of selfishness and nobility, > Valky: Ohhh purlease, selfishness, dear lord? Show me the canon! that proves your theory that a selfish notion entered "James" mind in this instance. (And you had better come up with something better than he was afraid of being expelled any other manner of authoritative threat, because I have already thought of a thousand answers to that. James fears bugger all, OK, lets leave it at that.) Nobility I can believe, but actually I really think it just went along these lines. Sirius says "I told him how to get into the Willow didn't I. Now we'll see just how he handles what he's got himself into. If he's ballsy enough to actually go in there that is, really thinks he's something scary he does. Well we'll see shan't we....." James says "Ohh mate you didn't. Lupin will tear him apart!" Sirius says " I don't care. He wanted it, he asked for it. He could decide it's not worth it if he's smart as he thinks he is. And besides, he's just like the rest of them......" James says "No Mate, you've sent him to his death. And it will be Moony's fault, it's a stupid idea Sirius." Sirius says "Well it's done and if you think that evil-loving little turd deserves to live...." (nb 'evil-loving little turd' is my take on 15 year old Sirius' contorted by his personal suffering, opinion of Snape) So finally James says "Well theres only one thing for it...." And we know the rest. And I am so saying that James did it because the first and last thing that came to his mind was Snape and Lupin are doomed without me nothing more and nothing less. James only uses physically non-harmful hexes Snape ( I won't say harmless because I concede the truth of psychological harm), Snape employs a more dangerous attack on James than James even considers unleashing on Snape. Although I accept that James was indeed having a bit o' a lark at Snapes expense I see he was *already noble*. I can show you canon that proves even magic as scary as the Avada Kedavra will not be so deadly to the recipient if the sorcery power behind it cannot overcome the recipients magical strength. It is not beyond a reasonable doubt that Snape's curse on James was intended to be far more sinister in nature than a simple cut. Perhaps James was simply the stronger wizard of the two, and since as observers we don't know that, but James would have known if Snape tried to inflict him a mortal wound, we cannot judge that James was not already noble in using milder counterhexes. Sirius certainly seemed to believe so and I think Sirius psyche is our strongest link to the truth about this incedent. Carol: > but by the end of his short life, he seems to have grown > up and become worthy of admiration. I think there are very few James bashers because there are no James worshippers, either. He's a > straightforward character about whom most of us have no strong feelings. > Valky: POP! I will defend James to the 11th of never. When, probably book six will finally come and I'll have a little help from JKR. Carol: > Sirius and Snape, on the other hand, are complex characters whoe > motives are less clear than James' and who have an odd mixture of > character traits. Valky: Exactly, why I look to them for more information about James. I dont find Sirius that odd though, I relate to his cause so I guess I know him a little more well than most. Snape on the other hand entirely baffles me. Carol: I personally prefer Snape with his wit, sarcasm, > obvious intelligence, surprising courage, and air of mystery to Sirius (I really ought to call him Black to make them parallel) with his arrogance, reckless bravado, understandable depression, and rather desperate affection for Harry. But I understand why others are > attracted to Sirius and try to defend him, just as I hope the Snape > bashers understand the compulsion of Snape fans (not apologists, > please: he's not Voldemort) to defend him. > Valky: Frankly I think that Snape is the more arrogant, Sirius the more witty and intelligent. But thats just my humble opinion. Carol: > To return to James--I think there's no question that, in the end, he showed true courage, and for that reason no one feels that he needs defending. Either that, or his actions in the Pensieve scene *can't* be defended (you don't hex someone "because he exists," you stupid little berk!) and so no one even tries. You simply dislike the young James and admire (or grudgingly accept) the slightly older James, and that's that. At any rate, that's my view. > > Just out of curiosity, are there any James fans on the list? If so, > please step forward and defend your favorite character. I'd like to > hear how I've got poor James all wrong. > Valky: No such begrudging here Carol. First I think that the "because he exists." line was a bumbling attempt by a crushing boy to 'look cool' in front of his dreamgirl. and Second he was always courageous. I don't think Snape was quite the inept opponent we are presuming from the canon in the pensieve scene I have a strong conviction that 15 year old James was a very brave boy but quite a bit of a fool, he was a naturally gifted kid I don't expect he was used to doing much thinking, and in his older years he managed to finally learn to apply some foresight to his actions. Bets to You Carol ;P From caesian at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 06:20:01 2004 From: caesian at yahoo.com (caesian) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 06:20:01 -0000 Subject: Broderick Bode's visitor In-Reply-To: <75996872.20040627181546@mindspring.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105432 imamommy at s... wrote: > isn> As I was rereading OOP again, I was trying to connect all the dots on > isn> Broderick Bode ... who was his visitor the day after Arthur > isn> was attacked? the old man with the listening device? Was he as > isn> innocuous as he seemed? Was JKR just keeping Bode's name in our > isn> minds, or is there more to this man than is obvious? > Dave Hardenbrook wrote: > This is maybe a horrible thought, but has it occurred to anyone that > Bode's murderer may have been none other than his healer, > Miriam Strout? > > On an unrelated note, I have been wondering, since I've never seen the > name anywhere else, whether Broderick Bode may be a descendant of the > 18th century astronomer Johann Bode, who I gather was sort of a Gilderoy > Lockhart of his time, both in charisma and in taking credit for other > people's work... > Caesian replies... I appreciate the Johann Bode info! I postulated based on available evidence that Bode's murderer is a DE member of the ministry. If interested, see post 96918. Cheers, Caesian From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 06:34:46 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 06:34:46 -0000 Subject: Boggart/ Patronus Musings - Seeing Patronus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105433 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "anthyroserain" wrote: > > > Katie: > > > Is it possible that *only* the wizard casting the Patronus can > > > see its true form? > > Jen: Except Dumbledore saw the form Harry's Patronus took at the > > Quidditch match. > Katie: > > Whoops! Knew I missed something there. (Maybe Dumbledore's just a > special guy? :) Asian_lovr2: Dumbledore special? Nope, in the DA Club when they cast Patronus Harry could see them all and it seems implied that everyone could see very one elses. To keep this from being a dreaded one liner, let me add that I think it is possible to cast a pretty substantial NON-corporeal Patronus. The reason Harry cast thin wisps of smoke is because he is so dramatically affected by the Dementors. He is losing strength and focus, and that is affecting his Patronus. For someone who was less affected, they would be able to produce a more effective non-corporeal Partonus. Given that, even Harry's 'thin wisps' can stop the Dementors from advancing. A more powerful 'cloud'/non-corporeal Patronus could be enough to drive one or two back. However, to drive away a whole herd (herd?) of them would take a full Patronus. I'm basing this on a broad interpretation of a lot of things in the book, although I admit nothing establishes it with certainty. For the record, a 'silver thing' shot out of Lupin's wand on the train when he drove away the Dementor. If it were a silver wisp of smoke or a cloud, I think it would have been described that way. At that close distance, if it were a recognisable animal form, they kids would have known. So, I conclude that while not corporeal, it was substantial. Just some thoughts. Steve/asian_lovr2 From Batchevra at aol.com Sat Jul 10 06:54:07 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 02:54:07 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Boggart/ Patronus Musings - Seeing Patronus Message-ID: <140.2dea3abd.2e20ec8f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105434 In a message dated 7/10/04 2:37:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com writes: >For the record, a 'silver thing' shot out of Lupin's wand on the train when he drove away the Dementor. If it were a silver wisp of smoke or a cloud, I think it would have been described that way. At that close distance, if it were a recognisable animal form, they kids would have known. So, I conclude that while not corporeal, it was substantial. Just some thoughts. Steve/asian_lovr2< I am going to add that Lupin had just transformed the night before and probably it affects his ability to do a stronger patronus. Hermione said a silvery thing came out of the wand. So, perhaps his magical power is not as strong as it would be a day or two later. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Sat Jul 10 06:59:30 2004 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 06:59:30 -0000 Subject: Goyle was not at MOM and is not in Azkaban In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105435 <<>> The Sergeant Majorette says Or maybe this is one of those movie foreshadowings that gave JKR chills. In the days leading up to the movie, when new trading cards and movie stills came out, the second most startling punk-to-hunk transformation (after Tom Felton) was Josh Herdman, who plays Goyle Jr. Yet we saw next to nothing of him in the movie, and there was that other (weedy-looking?) stooge with Draco by the Shrieking Shack. Could Goyle be the legendary "Good Slytherin"? --JDR From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 07:25:24 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 07:25:24 -0000 Subject: Harry Will Die--or will he? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105436 "xtremesk8ergurl" wrote: I agree, I think Harry is going to die in the end. Maybe Rowling will be able to make this a death that the readers will approve of or agree with, either because of a promise of happiness after death or because Harry himself will want to embrace death. But I think he's definitely going to die. Carol responds: It seems as if a large number of people (especially some who are new to the list?) think Harry is going to die. I really don't think so--first, because that's the easy way out. Much easier to have him die heroically than to figure out how to have him destroy Voldemort without resorting to "murder" (his own word) and come out alive, preferably with the loss only of the powers he acquired from Voldemort but with his own inborn powers intact. I think JKR will surprise us all with her creativity in bringing about a happy (but not sappy) ending. Second,there's the Prophecy itself: "Neither can live while the other survives." Let me be unimaginative here and assume that "Neither" and "other" actually refer, as they seem to do, to Harry and Voldemort. As I read it, neither can truly live while the other still exists, but if one dies, the other can finally have a real life. With Voldemort, that's easy. He's living a half life now, having lost his human appearance and alll human connections except his DEs. There's also the "cursed half life" from drinking unicorn blood (via Quirrell) to consider and his own statement in GoF that he's settling for his body and his powers rather than immortality. But if Harry, the only person who can destroy him, were to die, Voldemort (as I read the Prophecy) could truly live--maybe even take a human form again. As for Harry, he hasn't had much of a life at the Dursleys, and even at Hogwarts, he's had to face terrors and challenges beyond his years. In a sense, he's surviving, not living a normal life. If he can destroy Voldemort in a way that won't make him feel like a murderer himself, so that he can feel liberated rather than carrying a burden of guilt, he can truly live. (It's important, in my view, that others play heroic roles so he won't be placed on a pedestal. He needs a chance to be normal. That would be the greatest possible reward and the best possible ending, at least in my view, especially if Ron and Hermione also live. (And Snape, too, but JKR may not share my view on that!) Carol From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 07:33:47 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 07:33:47 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105437 Valky wrote : > James only uses physically non-harmful hexes Snape ( I won't say > harmless because I concede the truth of psychological harm), Snape > employs a more dangerous attack on James than James even considers > unleashing on Snape. > Although I accept that James was indeed having a bit o' a lark at > Snapes expense I see he was *already noble*. Del replies : I have to respectfully disagree on that point. The reason James and Snape used different kinds of spells is that their *goals* were different, not their mindsets. James was trying to *humiliate* Snape, not to necessarily hurt him. That's why he had him fall, he had him hung upside-down, and he had his mouth washed with soap. He was trying to make people *laugh* at Snape, not pity him. Snape, on the other hand, was trying to win what he considered to be a classic wizard duel. The best and fastest way is to disable your opponent, hence the physically harming curse. And I sure don't think that humiliating someone is *noble*. Del From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 07:52:31 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 07:52:31 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Power_in_JKR=92s_magic_(was:_Boggart/_Patronus_Musings_-_Quote_Lupin)?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105438 > Carol: > > As for Lupin I think we don't see his Patronus because he > can't quite cast one, DADA instructor or not. All we see on both his > attempts is a bright light from his wand. Not particularly good with > potions or he wouldn't rely on Snape, not as good as his friends at > Transfiguration or he wouldn't have to study for the O.W.L >I don't think Lupin is a particularly powerful wizard. Neri: In JKR's "theory of magic", power seems to come not so much from learning or skill, or even some arbitrary row potential, but more from courage. Mainly the courage to make moral choices and be loyal to a person or to a cause. Hermione (JKR's alter ego) explains this to Harry, just before the moment of truth in SS/PS, in a very simplistic way: ----------------------------------------------------------------- "Harry ? you're a great wizard, you know." "I'm not as good as you," said Harry, very embarrassed, as she let go of him. "Me!" said Hermione. "Books! And cleverness! There are more important things ? friendship and bravery" ----------------------------------------------------------------- The patronus is a typical example of this principal: you need a powerful and happy memory to produce it. The more powerful the memory, the more powerful the patronus. Another example: the power of the Fidelius comes from the choice of the Secret Keeper not to betray his friends. We also see a similar principle in the Dark Arts, only in reverse: the power of LV or Bellatrix comes from their willingness to commit terrible atrocities and enjoy them. I once tried to formulate this as an explicit theory based on the power behind the locked door. This was probably overdoing it, but the principle certainly holds in the metaphorical level of HP. There are only five people in HP that have the courage to pronounce Voldemort's name regularly: DD, Harry, Lupin, Sirius, and (only recently) Hermione. This is one reason I think Lupin is a powerful wizard, and also why neither Lupin nor Sirius will turn out to be ESE. Snape is an interesting complication of this principle. He is unable to pronounce Voldemort's name, but he is not exactly weak. He is valuable because as a "deeply horrible person" he is able to mingle with the bad guys and spy on them, something the good guys can't do. But this ability of him is useful for the good side only because he made the moral choice to be loyal to DD. We see the same principal in a simpler form in Mundungus: He is useful because he knows all the crooks. He knows them because, as Sirius notes, he is a crook himself. But this is useful only because Mundungus will not betray DD. This was Mundungus' single non-crooked moral choice. Neri From musicofsilence at hotmail.com Sat Jul 10 08:26:24 2004 From: musicofsilence at hotmail.com (lifeavantgarde) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:26:24 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105439 > Carol: > > Just out of curiosity, are there any James fans on the list? If so, > > please step forward and defend your favorite character. I'd like to > > hear how I've got poor James all wrong. > > For that matter, I'd looove to hear someone explain how the Malfoys > are misunderstood. They seem so purely dreadful. Any takers? Stefanie: ::Dons a "Gryffindor Chaser Fanclub ? 1976" T-Shirt and steps forward:: I'll say it straight out: I *love* James. Love him. I'm maybe one of three other people out there (or as far as I've seen around the fandom) but his character (and the mysteriousness thereof) has me hook, line, and sinker. I've had the question asked of me before of how on *earth* could I possibly be so devoted to a character who, save for an approx. 20 minute snip, we know only third-hand information of. I admit, it is a shaky platform to stand on...but... What do we know about him? Perhaps it's because I read all five books in my best imitation of a chain smoker, but the "Saint James" to regular "guy transition" was never so jarring in my mind. The first thing that maybe got me intrigued by the character was the description of both James and Sirius in PoA during the Three Broomsticks scene. Right there, we get a picture of two extremely bright boys with a penchant for using their magical precociousness for their own devices simply because they *could*. James was right along with creating the map, with becoming illegal Animagi, with being foolish and simply careless on full-moon nights, with being the second half of that brotherly duo who would make Madame Rosmerta laugh. Granted, we do hear about James's honor and bravery through little quips from people (and through the recounting of the event surrounding "The Prank" which I'm sure has been exhausted extensively. When it comes down to it, sure, James could've been going into the tunnel with the mindset that he was simply saving Lupin from being thrown to the hands of the MoM from whatever results may've transpired, but honestly, he saved Snape's life at the risk of his own. Judging from the fact that Dumbledore didn't know about their Animagi forms, and Snape didn't bust out with the information to get the boys he hated in trouble, James went into the tree as a human, and therefore at the same risk of being killed as Snape was.), but the overall image I got from this book wasn't of St. James ? how boring would that be? So what, right? From all of that, Sirius was just like that in school...never saw one without the other...inseperable...might as well go with the guy we actually get to meet alive in the series, right? The thing that got me is that, while we don't know what would've happened to the other boys had the turn of events not been so tragic, we do know that James got married and had a child. I think that separates him a great deal from the others. That he had a wife and son and loved both of them dearly enough to give up his life is, as I believe, great insight into his character. Ah, but "Snape's Worst Memory!" you say? Perhaps because I had already started to flesh out a background to James given the disregard he obviously had for rules he felt he could safely break, I wasn't that shocked to see the scene that played out. It fits with the rest of the characterization in the books (::bows to JKR::), really. I won't defend his actions...he was being a stupid arrogant teenaged boy. But, other things in that scene struck me, such as the obvious insecurities underlying his cocksure attitude (the running of his hand through his hair and, what I saw as the feeling he needed to continuously prove himself as superawesomeJames). Again (and again, and again, and AGAIN) I cannot defend what he does in the scene because what he does is indefensible. He picks on Snape blatently...however, I don't believe Snape was continuously the victim. It is said later, when Harry is speaking to Remus and Sirius (and yes, I do understand that these could very well be biased remarks) that Snape dealt it as he took it. (Well,' said Lupin slowly, 'Snape was a special case. I mean, he never lost an opportunity to curse James so you couldn't really expect James to take that lying down, could you?' - OotP 29) Like I said recently I will forever don the sandwich-sign o' "20 minutes of their lives, folks...20 minutes. Not their life's story, eh?" (Well, maybe my sandwich-sign will be more catchy than that) Simply put, we're getting a situation that was important to Snape...James is clearly not alive to let us look into whatever memories he would pour into his own Pensieve. I could delve so much further into why I love his character, and the characterizations that I've gleaned from little hints JKR has dropped (James and his family taking in Sirius after he runs away...and actually, since we know even from Sirius that James hated anything to do with the Dark Arts, the fact that both boys became so close. Plus the fact that he was even friends with both Sirius and Remus...how easy would it be for entirelypigheaded!James to kick "that Black boy" and "that Dark creature" away from his high and noble ideals ? character insight right there) but I'll leave it here. I love James because he had a family, and loved his family; I find that *very* important. James looking out of Moody's picture of the original Order struck me ? not only was he willing to put his life on the line for his wife and his little boy, but he put himself in right in the crosshairs to further the defenses of others in the WW. Saint James? Hardly. Good guy? Absolutely. Stefanie (a.k.a. in some internet circles Prongsphile) (Who is leaving for vacation for a week and will not be able to defend James due to a sirius lack of internet connection and *hopes* that there are those who will fight for the cause!) From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat Jul 10 08:55:52 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:55:52 -0000 Subject: The Mirror and the Heart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105440 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aggiepaddy" wrote: > > > Kneasy: > > Well, we can argue about this until the cows come home, but the fact > > of the matter is that Quirrell did not want to use the Stone - > that's made quite clear in canon. > > > Me, Aggie: > I'm sorry but I have to disagree with the statement that Quirrell > didn't want to use the stone. . . Forgive me if i'm wrong but hasn't > Quirrell got a Voldemort growing out the back of his head?! I would > say that for Voldy to return using the stone Quirrell WOULD have to > have used it. > > Loving the mirror ideas being thrown around! We know from JKR > herself that Sirius's mirror plays an important future role. No problem with not agreeing - that's what makes this site fun, but: "I see the Stone...I'm presenting it to my master...but where is it?" >From the phrasing it's likely that in the Mirror he even sees Voldy as a separate being, not the horror sitting above his back collar stud. Just what plans Voldy had for setting up his own Elixir bottling plant we don't know, but I'd bet that dumping Quirrell would be near the top of the list. If he used Q to make the Elixir, how would he stop Q from becoming immortal too? It's one of those episodes in the books that appear straight-forward on first reading, but the more you think about it, the more convoluted it can get. Just how did Voldy intend to sort out the nuts and bolts of Elixir production? It's probable that we'll never find out since it's very long odds that it'll be critical for future plot lines. So I'm taking the easy route - strict canon. Q says this; DD says that; they don't match; ergo - something funny going on. It's called paranoia. Kneasy From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 09:16:02 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 09:16:02 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105441 Stefanie: > I love James because he had a family, and loved his family; I find > that *very* important. Del replies : Uh... Vernon has a family and loves his family. We see him repeatedly putting himself between them and whatever danger seems to be menacing them. But nobody loves Vernon, right ? Del From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Jul 10 09:59:04 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 09:59:04 -0000 Subject: COS musings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105442 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chris" wrote: > Chris: > Time is the one thing that does not seem to be constant through out > the Harry Potter books and is something of great interest for me. > Definite Time References in the Book put Harry being born in 1980, > Lily/James' death in 1981 and Sir Nicolas' 500th Death Day(Harry's > second year) as 1992(making Harry correctly 12.) > > Being the sad git that I am I looked into days of said years. The > first reference is in PS, that the 1st November 1981 is a Tuesday. > Now working back from my birthday, (25/11/1982 - a Thursday), the 1st > November 1981 was a Sunday. Now through most of the rest of the > writing JKR studiously avoids naming specific days. > Geoff: Doesn't make you a sad git at all, merely a seeker after truth! I found a similar discrepancy re Harry's 11th birthday. If you like to read my post 89687, you'll see how it's derived. Totally OT, has Clapham in your email address any connection with Clapham London SW4? From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat Jul 10 10:15:05 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:15:05 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes (or Snape-aholics and Siriophiles) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105443 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "curly_of_oster" wrote: > > Me (Lisa): > Huh??? Clearly I have spent at least some time in a very different > HP fandom than you have. :-) Seriously, though, in HP fandom I have > encountered just as many Snape fans who "like" him in exactly the > way you're describing "Siriophiles" liking Sirius as I have > Snape fans who find him a fascinating if deeply unpleasant > *character*. And by the same token, I know of a number of fans of > Sirius who would never in a million years describe him as "cuddly." > Some of them don't even think he's a particularly nice person. > > But not everybody does seem to "know" these things. I have seen it > argued that Snape treats everyone equally, for example. I've seen > it stated as fact that he has such a strong "moral code" that he > would save you even if he hates you (based entirely, as far as I > could see, on the counter-cursing the broom episode in PS/SS). I've > seen it argued that his behavior in PoA has nothing to do with > nursing a grudge against Sirius, but was rather *all* about > protecting the students. > Kneasy: All true, but I was painting with a broad brush. Generalising in order to make a point. For every character in the books there's a spectrum of opinion, or more accurately a bell curve - and what goes on at the lower percentile points has to be seen to be believed sometimes. Plus a number of posts are intended to be provocative; you know, "it's quiet on the site, let's rattle somebody's cage; see if we can get a lively thread going." Done it myself often enough. There's usually somebody that'll bite if you dangle the right bait. Doesn't mean that I'm committed to the views expressed - just that I enjoy indoor blood sports. As for 'liking' Snape - my own view, and it's also an impression I get from others, is that the word 'appreciate' is more apposite than 'like'. Could be wrong though. > Lisa: > Personally, I agree that Snape is an interesting character, that he > adds a lot to the books, and that there is clearly more to him that > we have yet to learn. However, I also think that wanting to know > about/thinking there is a back-story and motivation for certain > actions (say, his treatment of Harry and Neville, to use one of your > examples) is no more valid than theorizing that he's treating them > that way simply because he is a bitter, nasty man. Kneasy: Both opinions are valid, so far anyway. But theorising about motivation is much more entertaining than taking him solely at face value and writing him off as a social or emotional failure and leaving it at that. Ain't no fun there. Dunno about you, but I'm constitutionally incapable of accepting anything at face value, especially since JKR admits to *enjoying* throwing clues and red herrings into the pot. Never could resist puzzles, and hers are particularly well disguised. Keeps the old grey cells ticking over. From musicofsilence at hotmail.com Sat Jul 10 10:16:27 2004 From: musicofsilence at hotmail.com (lifeavantgarde) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:16:27 -0000 Subject: James the Berk?/ James vs. Vernon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105444 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > > Stefanie: > > I love James because he had a family, and loved his family; I find > > that *very* important. > > Del replies : > Uh... Vernon has a family and loves his family. We see him repeatedly > putting himself between them and whatever danger seems to be menacing > them. But nobody loves Vernon, right ? > Stefanie responds: Again, I find this hard because James's situation is such that we can't see him futher along in his family life for obvious reasons. I do recognize your point, (and I do admit, I got flustered opening up your post xo) ) and fairly, since what we do know of Vernon is from the third-person voice which identifies with Harry, we could even go to the far extreme of saying that the horrible things he does may be colored in this light. However...if we are to trust JKR's characterizations, what we see of James and what we see of Vernon are very different forms of selflessness. Yes, they both settle down with a wife and a son, but (and this is where James's lack of his own future becomes a problem) how is Vernon displaying the love we're supposed to see? --In the snake scene in PS there is no mention of him running to Dudley's aid. In fact, he's not mentioned until he's locking Harry into his cupboard. --Is Vernon's relocating of his family for their protection (is he putting his life on the line here in the same was James was) more out of concern for their safety or out of determination to keep Harry's being a wizard under wraps. From his speech and attitude during Hagrid's explanation, it seems the latter. Vernon says nothing except interjections to either scoff the story or try to prevent it's telling. --In CoS, Vernon parades his son and wife as a barganing tactics for his business endeavor, and as a result of the happenings of that night willingly throws Harry into a highly abusive situation -- there were no threats to his family's safety here...in fact, as he had just found out that Harry was no threat, his actions are completely unjustified as "protecting his family." --In PoA we have "'HOW DARE YOU GIVE THIS NUMBER TO PEOPLE LIKE -- PEOPLE LIKE YOU!' Uncle Vernon had roared, spraying Harry with spit." It doesn't seem that he's concerned about his family's safety...just more of the wizard-hatred we've seen in the past books. --Also in PoA, regarding Aunt Marge -- Vernon does go after Harry and yells at him to "PUT HER RIGHT"...but...is this a mark of sacrificial love? --In GoF, before the Weasley's show up, Vernon has nothing to say regarding wizards (or regarding their safety) save his disapproval at what they would be wearing or their punctuality. Petunia and Dudley are around the house apparently waiting to be there when they show up. If Vernon had anticipated a dangerous event (such as that which had happened with the exploding of the fireplace and the Ton- Tongue Toffees) he certainly seemed more intent on intimidating the wizards rather than making sure his family was safely tucked away. --In OotP, when he first sees Harry with his "dangerous" wand out, his first reaction is to make sure its put away before anyone else sees. Now, I can see your point, in this book. He even says "you're not endangering my wife and son, you're not bringing trouble down on us" I bring this to the table: "I like torturing them," said Rowling. "You should keep an eye on Dudley. It's probably too late for Aunt Petunia and Uncle Vernon." Is it valid to put a member of the old Order of the Phoenix (something that says just a bit about one's willingness to extend sacrificial love) on a level with someone who in the majority of encounters with "The Threat" has been more concerned about decorum than the safety of his family? (I have left out how Vernon parents because any proof of James's parenting skills would of course be mere speculation) Stefanie From t.forch at email.dk Sat Jul 10 10:23:38 2004 From: t.forch at email.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 12:23:38 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: COS musings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20040710122040.01fb3930@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 105445 At 09:59 10-07-04 +0000, Geoff Bannister wrote: >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chris" >wrote: > > > Chris: > > > > Being the sad git that I am I looked into days of said years. The > > first reference is in PS, that the 1st November 1981 is a Tuesday. >Geoff: >Doesn't make you a sad git at all, merely a seeker after truth! I >found a similar discrepancy re Harry's 11th birthday. If you like to >read my post 89687, you'll see how it's derived. I am happy for that -- I spent quite a while finding and analysing all the dating references in the books, the result of which work can be found on the web: or It is quite a lengthy essay, I'm afraid ;-) /Troels From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sat Jul 10 10:42:32 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 06:42:32 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Thestrals and Quirrels Death Message-ID: <191.2b01f5a1.2e212218@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105446 In a message dated 7/9/2004 11:40:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, slgazit at sbcglobal.net writes: What I don't understand though is why he is able to see the thestrals after Cedric's death considering he did not see Cedric die either - he had his face covered and eyes closed due to the pain in his scar. When he opened them, Cedric was already dead. ===== Sherrie here: IMHO, given JKR's comments about having to let the death sink in, I'd say it's very logical that Harry should see the thestrals after Cedric's death. No, he didn't witness it directly - but he certainly "witnessed" it emotionally. Sherrie "Unless history lives in our present, it has no future." PRESERVE OUR CIVIL WAR BATTLEFIELDS! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat Jul 10 10:48:35 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:48:35 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes (or Snape-aholics and Siriophiles) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105447 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "curly_of_oster" wrote: > > On the other hand, I've never been terribly convinced by the > whole "Snape treats Harry and/or Neville badly as part of his act as > a spy" theory. From the point of view of Voldemort and his > supporters, Snape is supposedly on their side, but playing a role as > a Dumbledore supporter, or at the least playing a role as just > another Hogwarts professor. If that is the case, wouldn't he be > more convincing in either of these roles if he wasn't so > obviously "against" the "Boy Who Lived"? Is he trying to convince > whatever Death Eaters are supposedly keeping tabs on his behavior in > his classroom (and even in one-on-one Occlumency lessons?) that he's > a *bad* spy, that he's giving Dumbledore reason to doubt him? I > most definitely think there is more to Snape than we know, and I'm > curious as to what we'll find out in future books, but this is one > explanation for his behavior that still doesn't make much sense to > me. Clarification/explanation of it is most welcome. > Acting like a good little DE by tormenting the two possible Voldy!Banes is all very well as a starting point, but can't be carried too far IMO. Of course the DE parents of Malfoy minor, Crabbe, Goyle, etc. will probably nod with approval when they hear that ole Sevvy is giving Potter and Longbottom a hard time. Just as a matter of principle it'll warm the cockles of their hearts that the offspring of those responsible for Voldy's defeat and the incarceration of so many of their friends are on the receiving end of Snape's sarcasm. But there's another strand, one which has (I think) been confirmed to a certain extent by JKR; Snape is the equivalent of Vernon Dursley at Hogwarts. He has a function - to teach Harry that not all is sweetness and light; that there are unpleasant people around and he's going to have to learn to deal with them. It's an idea I've posted before - Harry sees the WW as a refuge from an unfriendly existence. But in the WW Harry is one of the all-time heroes and DD placed him with a Muggle family deliberately, just so that he wouldn't be spoiled. But there's still a danger of that happening. If Harry was greeted everywhere as he was at the Leaky Cauldron, that danger would be significant. Snape is a corrective. He is *deliberately* nasty - and it's with DD's knowledge and approval. They're the best double act in the WW. Snape is there to watch Harry, to protect Harry and to teach him a few things about life - like how unfair it is. His attitude has credible roots to outsiders- Snape's history with James. But Snape is much too intelligent to confuse Harry with James; he probably doesn't like Harry much, but in the larger scheme of things that's hardly significant. The 'act' (if act there is) is as much for Harry as for Voldy and the DEs - and of course Harry's responses add verisimilitude. But I dare say it's another theory you don't agree with. 'Twas ever thus - Kneasy burns the midnight oil and gets brickbats for his pains. Poor Kneasy. From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Sat Jul 10 11:44:17 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 11:44:17 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle - Riddle murders Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105448 How old was Tom Riddle when the Riddles were murdered? Did it happen before the basilisk incident in Cos, or after? I'm not quite sure which came first, and if Tom was still a student when his father and grandparents were killed, or had just graduated. From cmjohnstone at hotmail.com Sat Jul 10 12:29:08 2004 From: cmjohnstone at hotmail.com (littleleahstill) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 12:29:08 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105449 Sonya wrote: >Do you think memory Tom knew what had happened to LV since he made >the MemoryTom? >I'm not sure he was aware of all the going on's. Do you suppose Mr. >Malfoy was able to write in the Diary and tell him what was going >on? What did Mr.Malfoy hope to gain from passing on the Diary? If he >was hoping to bring Tom back so he could become LV again (and the killings) would that make Mr. Malfoy a 'good' DE? Leah: Tom Riddle knows that Harry has escaped him twice, once at GH and once the previous year, when he was Quirrelmort, and he knows Harry was raised by muggles. He doesn't know about Lily's protection but then neither would Lucius. He doesn't know what he looked like as Quirrelmort, but neither would Lucius. So one would have to assume knowledge must have been passed on to diary Tom by Lucius or someone in his household. I can envisage diary Tom suggesting to Lucius that the book be given to Harry so that he can (a) reopen the Chamber (b) destroy and/or discredit Harry. However, I believe our 'slippery friend' had his own agenda. Arthur Weasley was carrying out his raids under the Muggle Protection Act and Lucius was forced to dispose of some of his possessions. As DD points out at the end of the book, discrediting one of the Weasleys as a killer of muggleborns would have ruined Arthur. I'm not sure however whether prior to the fight in Flourish & Blotts, Lucius already decided to switch victims, or was going along with Riddle's plan, which was good for him too, (destroying Harry would also wreck Arthur, whose son is his best friend), and switched as a direct result of his confrontation with Arthur. Whether Lucius considered that Harry's death might restore Tom to life is I think a moot point. However, Lucius could play restoration or non restoration to his own advantage. With the latter, he has effectively destroyed Harry, Arthur and probably ended DD's career. With the former, he will become Riddlemort's favourite boy. From cmjohnstone at hotmail.com Sat Jul 10 12:30:30 2004 From: cmjohnstone at hotmail.com (littleleahstill) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 12:30:30 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle in the COS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105450 Sorry, forgot to title previous post, which is on this topic Leah From gelite67 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 05:33:54 2004 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 05:33:54 -0000 Subject: HBP of What? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105451 --- So far, despite some referrences to royalness > among the ghosts, no one I've read has pointed out anything > canonical explaining "royalty pertaining to the wizard world." > Neither has anyone given any canonical information about whether the > ghosts derive their royal status from the muggle world or the WW, or > both. Angie writes: I assume you are talking about the references to nobility, such as Sir Nicholas? I had forgotten about that. Of course, I'm not British, but I think that kind of title has to be bestowed by royalty, so apparently there was some royalty somewhere. I hadn't thought about that. I guess we will see! From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 12:43:27 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 12:43:27 -0000 Subject: James the Berk?/ James vs. Vernon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105452 Stefanie wrote : > > > I love James because he had a family, and loved his family; I > > > find that *very* important. I, Del, replied : > > Uh... Vernon has a family and loves his family. We see him > > repeatedly putting himself between them and whatever danger seems > > to be menacing them. But nobody loves Vernon, right ? Stefanie responded : > Again, I find this hard because James's situation is such that we > can't see him futher along in his family life for obvious reasons. I > do recognize your point, (and I do admit, I got flustered opening up > your post xo) ) Del replies : Sorry ! It's just that I remarked to my husband just a few days ago that no matter how horrible Vernon might be to Harry, at least he's a nice husband and father (though, as JKR pointed out, his treatment of Dudley is actually bad parenting and won't be good for Dudley in the end), and he sure defends his family in the face of danger. So of course, when I read your post about James, I was immediately reminded of Vernon. Stefanie wrote : > and fairly, since what we do know of Vernon is from the third-person > voice which identifies with Harry, we could even go to the far > extreme of saying that the horrible things he does may be colored in > this light. Del replies : Vernon is genuinely horrible to Harry, there's no denying that. However, I don't remember seeing him being horrible to his family, quite the opposite in fact. Vernon is a *nice* father and husband, from what we can see. Stefanie wrote : > how is Vernon displaying the love we're supposed to see? > > --In the snake scene in PS there is no mention of him running to > Dudley's aid. In fact, he's not mentioned until he's locking Harry > into his cupboard. Del replies : It's kind of complicated for me, because I have only GoF and OoP at home those days. But anyway... The fact that Vernon is not mentioned as coming to Dudley's help doesn't mean he didn't. But Petunia, as the mother, was the one most likely to make a big fuss, so Vernon would probably appear quite passive in comparison. Stefanie wrote : > --Is Vernon's relocating of his family for their protection (is he > putting his life on the line here in the same was James was) more > out of concern for their safety or out of determination to keep > Harry's being a wizard under wraps. Del replies : I'm pretty convinced that Vernon was only trying to prevent Harry from discovering the truth. In fact, this incident is an argument in your favour, because it's quite obvious that Vernon doesn't care about the discomfort he puts his family through at this time. But remember when Hagrid comes in the Hut : Vernon tries to shield his wife and son. Hagrid is mightily impressive, especially at night, during a thunder-storm, and in such a small hut, and he just blew their front door down, and yet Vernon *shields* his family. I think it counts as sacrificial love. Stefanie wrote : > --In CoS, Vernon parades his son and wife as a barganing tactics for > his business endeavor, and as a result of the happenings of that > night willingly throws Harry into a highly abusive situation -- > there were no threats to his family's safety here...in fact, as he > had just found out that Harry was no threat, his actions are > completely unjustified as "protecting his family." Del replies : Harry was no threat for Vernon's family's *safety*, but he destroyed an opportunity for Vernon to increase his family's *comfort*. The contract he was hoping to sign would have allowed him to buy a holiday house in Majorca. The Dursleys are obviously a very traditional family, with Petunia at home and Vernon providing for their needs. Harry preventing him from signing that contract was a direct attack on Vernon's role as provider. Stefanie wrote : > --In GoF, before the Weasley's show up, Vernon has nothing to say > regarding wizards (or regarding their safety) save his disapproval > at what they would be wearing or their punctuality. Petunia and > Dudley are around the house apparently waiting to be there when they > show up. If Vernon had anticipated a dangerous event (such as that > which had happened with the exploding of the fireplace and the Ton- > Tongue Toffees) he certainly seemed more intent on intimidating the > wizards rather than making sure his family was safely tucked away. Del replies : I'm not sure I understand you. At that time, the fireplace had not yet exploded and the Ton-Tongue Toffee had not yet been eaten. Vernon doesn't seem afraid of the wizards that are going to come and pick up Harry because they've shown signs of normalcy by sending their request by the normal post. However, once the fireplace explodes, we see Petunia trying to shield Dudley (it always makes me laugh to picture skinny, bony Petunia trying to shield her massive son :-), and Vernon trying to shield both his wife and son. I call that sacrificial courage. Stefanie wrote : > I bring this to the table: > "I like torturing them," said Rowling. "You should keep an eye on > Dudley. It's probably too late for Aunt Petunia and Uncle Vernon." Del replies : As I said, Vernon is a quite horrible character. However, I find that he's quite a nice father and husband. We don't see him abusing them, yelling at them, or anything of the sort. He works to bring them what he considers as necessary for a comfortable life. He doesn't criticise them (even when he should : Dudley's temper and bad eating habits, for example), and so on. That's much more than many RL fathers do. Stefanie wrote : > Is it valid to put a member of the old Order of the Phoenix > (something that says just a bit about one's willingness to extend > sacrificial love) Del replies : Er... Might I remind you that Peter Pettigrew was also a member of the Order ? And Severus Snape still is ? I don't think either of them could be described as being full as "sacrificial love", could they ? Stefanie wrote : > on a level with someone who in the majority of encounters with "The > Threat" has been more concerned about decorum than the safety of his > family? Del replies : ... but is still someone who *never* failed to protect his family when faced with immediate unknown danger. Vernon is scared of magic, but he will never abandon his family when faced with a magical danger. We can't deny him that one quality : sacrificial love for his family. Del From lavaluvn at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 07:08:15 2004 From: lavaluvn at yahoo.com (lavaluvn) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 07:08:15 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle in CoS In-Reply-To: <42.527d3d37.2e20d1bc@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105453 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Madydea at a... wrote: Sonya: > I'm not sure he was aware of all the going on's. Do you suppose Mr. Malfoy > was able to write in the Diary and tell him what was going on? What did Mr. > Malfoy hope to gain from passing on the Diary? If he was hoping to bring Tom > back so he could become LV again (and the killings) would that make Mr. Malfoy a > 'good' DE? > Along those lines, do you think Malfoy was deliberately targeting the Weasleys and/or Harry? Would he have snuck the diary in anyone's bag or was he waiting for Ginny (the first Weasley girl) to come along? Or a chance at Harry? We suspect from his comment that he had "business" to attend to that day, that he had plans to plant the diary on *somebody*! Perhaps LV had left him instructions, or told him what was in the diary and what it might do. -Andromeda From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 07:20:06 2004 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 07:20:06 -0000 Subject: Boggart/ Patronus Musings - Seeing Patronus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105454 Asian_lovr2: > Dumbledore special? Nope, in the DA Club when they cast Patronus Harry > could see them all and it seems implied that everyone could see very > one elses. Katie: Yes, well, *cough* let's forget about my incredibly stupid and ill- informed suggestion(s), shall we? I promise to consult the books, and not my faulty memory, next time. (At risk of sounding dumb again, do we ever see the corporeal Patronus of anyone but than Harry?) This is a two-in-one post. (Hopefully this will placate the elves!-- I think.) I remember not too long ago, someone mentioned an idea about the seven tasks in PS/SS representing the books in the series. Could somebody give me a full explanation, or direct me to where I could find it? (The Search function here is not being very helpful.) I was re-reading that part of the book, and think I have a few ideas about it, but am not sure. -Katie who looked into the Mirror of Erised and saw herself writing a post that wouldn't embarrass her later From pcsgames at toltbbs.com Sat Jul 10 13:06:00 2004 From: pcsgames at toltbbs.com (Phil Vlasak) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 09:06:00 -0400 Subject: -=Spam=- [HPforGrownups] Re: HBP of What? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20040710085821.02b173a0@mail.toltbbs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105455 gelite67 wrote: >--- So far, despite some referrences to royalness > > among the ghosts, no one I've read has pointed out anything > > canonical explaining "royalty pertaining to the wizard world." > > Neither has anyone given any canonical information about whether >the > > ghosts derive their royal status from the muggle world or the WW, >or > > both. Phil comes up with a brilliant idea: What if the Half Blood Prince is Peeves, the school poltergeist? Half blood could mean half ghost and half wizard. From COS: Unlike the ghosts around them, Peeves the Poltergeist was the very reverse of pale and transparent. He was wearing a bright orange party hat, a revolving bow tie, and a broad grin on his wide, wicked face. Phil again: Although his little pranks don't do permanent damage, he could be a potent weapon if a battle was fought inside the school. Smiles, Phil [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Sat Jul 10 07:48:46 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 10 Jul 2004 07:48:46 -0000 Subject: Wands, Dumbledore and Sirius/James Message-ID: <20040710074846.16856.qmail@webmail6.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105456 >> From: Rebekia Krum >> As of OotP-- Sirius and Dumbledore knew that Srius was >> the Potters SecretKeeper *until* Sirius passed on the >> task to Pettigrew (I?m assuming going through DD to do >> so). >> Why is it okay to save >> Sirius after he died, but not turn time and save >> Harry's parents? >> As for James being a bully because of what we saw in >> the Pensieve....Well, it is Snapes memory of the >> event. In Snapes mind James was a prat, but what about >> Malfoy?s memories? I?m sure Ron and Harry wouldn?t be >> too far off from how Sirius and James appear. I think >> some students at Hogwarts might view Ron and Harry a >> bit differently than how those in Gryffindor see them >> as. Amey: Sirius wasn't yet dead when he was saved, he was going to be worse than dead. Also, saving Harry's parents would have started a huge chain reaction, because that would mean taking them away from GH, with them Harry. This would have resulted in LV not trying to AK Harry and losing his body in the deal. Consequences? Very bad I am sure. Also, Dumbledore didn't know Sirius had changed the SK position with wormtail, as he himself (Dumbledore) gave evidence that Sirius was SK for Potters. Also about Pensieve, welcome to the club. It *is* Snape's memory. But right now, we don't know how much subjective or objective that pensieve is, but still I entirely agree with you. Otherwise, Harry wouldn't be afraid that if Snape moved off, he wouldn't be able to watch his father. Last but not the least, welcome to the list. >> Gielreta: >> At the end of OOtP, Dumbledore explains that he "persuaded" Kreacher to tell >> him where and why Sirius had gone. After such persuasion, what sort of >> condition will Kreacher be in? Will we have to mount his head after all? What >> sort of persuasion might Dumbledore have used? Amey: Ad for crucio, I am not sure. But he is legilimens, as he told Harry. I doubt he would use Crucio on Kreacher, because he wouldn't need that. Elves are bound by magic to serve their masters, so I think this might have come somewhere in the deal. 'He did not wish to tell me,' said Dumbledore. `But I am a sufficiently accomplished Legilimens myself to know when I am being lied to and I - persuaded him - to tell me the full story, before I left for the Department of Mysteries.' (OOtP) Hmm.. maybe a bit of veritaserum, and then we know how frightening Dumbledore can be when he is angry. However much I would like Kreacher's head hanging on the board (Sorry, Hermione), I think that time is yet to come :( >> Jen, >> I don't like the idea that Harry is decended from Gryffindor because >> I think that does go against JKR's message that it doesn't matter >> where you came from, its your actions that count. Amey: Well, how about descendent in qualities and other things, not blood descendent? Many people are sure that Dumbledore is descedent of Gryffindor. >>Amey: >> And as for penseive, if it shows "a memory of that person's version >> of what happened.", it's pretty subjective, and the scene might >> even be different. >> SSSusan: >> May I ask whom you're quoting here? Could you clarify for me, >> please? Amey: Sorry I was quoting from the post I was replying to, and didn't clarify further. What I meant was that, if thepenseive is fully subjective, how come Harry was afraid that if Snape would have moved he couldn't watch his father? Does it have some effective area? And if that is the case, how come Snape didn't hear what Sirius and James said but Harry was able to hear it? It fits their typical images only too well. Is it the truth or somebody's version of truth? KB I was going to say maybe Ollivander's was only for rich, privileged people, but Tom Riddle was an orphan -- but was it Tom or LV who bought the "brother" of Harry's wand? >> SSSusan: >> I also don't see how James comes out as MORE arrogant and bullying >> than Sirius. In THIS scene, perhaps. Overall? No. Whatever the >> motivation for it, James stopped Snape; Sirius did not. Amey: We have only one scene where we see James, he is not there in any other scene, except in memories (and I don't mean of Penseive kind). So, there is no basis for comparing Sirius and James except 2 occurances. In one of them, James is worse bully, in other he is Saviour. But why is he saviour? I doubt he would do that for Snape. What he did was to save Sirius and Remus from trouble. And also, didn't Snape tell Harry that what James did was to save *himself* from trouble? No mention of Sirius or his friends. Is it because of simple rivalry between these two, or JKR doesn't want us to hear about Sirius any more? Was James' role in that only limited to saving Snape, and if it was dangerous for James, from what we know about Sirius, can he leave James in dangerous position and gone off to library or something? He must be there with James. >> leb >> Since the >> hat and the sword both belonged to Godric then it could be plausible >> that it materialized from nowhere instead of being summoned from DD's >> office. Amey: Fawkes got the hat from Dumbledore's office, and as they both are Gryffindor's, I think hat must have got it from somewhere. >> "ge25y": >> Does this mean that TR and LM were at school together? Why >> does Lucius have them and what else can we expect to see? Amey: Great, I haven't seen a single post on this issue. What I think is that there is some understanding between Olivander and Dumbledore (he told Dumbledore that Harry had got The Other Wand), so as Dumbledore knows, he would have known it. I think Dumbledore must have told him to keep an eye on the Other Wand, and told him the reason. This connection needs to be explored (any posts on this one before?) >> "ge25y": >> I'm new to this so I'm sorry if I don't follow all the rules right. >> You might have hit on something here. I don't think that you need to >> be pureblood to be in Slytherin. After all Voldermort was in >> Slytherin but he's half blood.... Makes you wonder huh? :) Amey: He was a half-blood, but he is the last descendent of Slytherin, surely the Hat would have recognised that. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mayeaux45 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 07:55:19 2004 From: mayeaux45 at yahoo.com (mayeaux45) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 07:55:19 -0000 Subject: Harry & Pettigrew...A Wizard's Debt? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105457 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mayeaux45" wrote: > With all this talk of who could the HBP be, it got me to thinking > about other 'soon to be important characters' in the end of the > series. Have some of you forgotten about little Peter Pettigrew? > In ch.22 of PoA Dumbledore states that Harry did a very "noble" > (much like the noble Black family mentioned in OotP) thing saving > Pettigrew's life. Dumbledore then went on to say: "Pettigrew owes > his life to you. You have sent Voldemort a deputy who is in your > debt....When one wizard saves another wizard's life, it "creates a > certain bond" between them.... "This is magic at its "deepest", > its "most impenetrable"..." "Trust me...the time may come when you > will be very glad you saved Pettigrew's life." > > My question is...how important will Pettigrew be in books 6 & 7? > How 'deep' and 'impenetrable' can this magic bond be? Will Peter > Pettigrew come to his senses in time? Or will he be forced to act on > the behalf of Harry because of their 'bond'? Something tells me we > haven't heard the last of little Peter Pettigrew. He may have been > a whiney, scared, frumpy, idol-worshiping follower...but he wasn't > put in GRYFFINDOR for nothing!!!! > > "mayeaux" From cmjohnstone at hotmail.com Sat Jul 10 13:06:27 2004 From: cmjohnstone at hotmail.com (littleleahstill) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 13:06:27 -0000 Subject: HBP & the Weasleys Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105458 Valky wrote: >Perhaps Dumbledore's real agenda in all this is to restore the once >and future Kingly and Gryffindor line of Weasley to leadership over >the more grasping Slytherin and Slytherin-controlled current Wizard >leadership. Maybe he's ultimately a true servant of the house of >Weasley? Reading this, I couldn't help thinking of LOTR, where while Frodo is off destroying the ring, there's a major subplot going on whereby Strider is revealed as Aragorn and becomes the rightfuly king of Gondor. However, I wonder if book 5 is a bit late to start introducing this idea, and whether, other than the Weasley's fairy tale like poverty and number of children, we have had any hints? Leah From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Sat Jul 10 08:24:41 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 10 Jul 2004 08:24:41 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 4890 Message-ID: <20040710082441.2528.qmail@webmail7.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105459 >> From: "gelite67" >> Subject: Harry's Pensieve >> Could Dumbledore would give Harry his own pensieve and extract >> Harry's latent memories from his first year? Amey: >From what we have see, I think only memories the person rememebers can be taken out of head (I presume). >> Angie >> I don't see how Lucius would have gotten the diary from >> Tom and I can't see why Lucius would be motivated to help Tom as >> opposed to Voldemort. >> leb2323 >> "Does this mean that TR and LM were at school together? Why >> does Lucius have them and what else can we expect to see?" Amey: Both can't be in school together, as the last opening of the CoS was before Luciou's time as Draco tells Harry and Ron after they have drunk Polyjuice Potion. And as for being motivated to help Tom as opposed to LV, they are both one and the same. "Voldemort," said Riddle softly, "is my past, present, and future, Harry Potter . . . ." (CoS) OOps, have I just put an end to the debate that LV and TR are different or something?? >>Leb: > I know and will readily admit right off the bat that this is > farfetched, but how widespread is the 'help will be given' part of > this advice. When I read this part I immediately thought of the > scene in OOtP where Harry is desperately trying to remember > something > in one of his OWLs, silently asks for help, and ends up reading > either Lavender or Parvati's mind to get his answer. Amey: He didn't read her mind, he wished he could. He concentrated hard and raked his brains. >> Me, Aggie: >> I agree, I think that the sword has only been in DD's office SINCE >> CoS. I believe that it did not 'exist' before Harry pulled it out of >> the hat. Amey: We have only seen Dumbledore's office once before that, and then Harry was more interested in The Hat and Fawkes than seeing around. So the point is fully open. >> vmonte wrote: >> > Ron is also going to have new memories to explore in the next book. > The brain has to be someone important to be kept at the DoM. Amey: Gryffindor's brain anyone? Connection to HBP? I mean I have read many posters thinking Ron is HBP, he may have the memories of HBP (Gryffindor maybe, Slytherin... horrible thinking) rather than being one. Amey, who has started thinking of possiblities of The Brain and Ron [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sat Jul 10 09:05:32 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 05:05:32 -0400 Subject: The Mirror and the Heart Message-ID: <001201c4665d$109e7bb0$81c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 105460 Jen said: "I don't get this part at all. Why did DD & Co. set up protection on the stone if they didn't think someone was after it? Snape knew pretty early on Quirrell was searching for the stone and yet he's allowed to hang out at Hogwarts, within walking distance of the stone. Go figure" I want to know why there were three broomsticks in the winged key room. Three. Seems a bit odd, doesn't it? As though DD KNEW HRH would be the ones to go after it. Nearly anyone else would would be trying to get the stone would be acting alone, why would they need three broomsticks. Cathy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sat Jul 10 12:21:56 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:21:56 -0400 Subject: DE in the DoM Message-ID: <000a01c46678$7edfa070$36c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 105461 I think I have finally reached a conclusion about one thing in one of the books! Harry, Hermione, and Neville (HHN) are in the time room. Nott is injured, either by Hermione's spell or by shelves and orbs falling on him. Whatever it is it seems non-repairable at the moment (no 'Enervate' or anything as simple as that). Next we hear Lucius Malfoy barking orders: Bella & Rudy go left Crabbe & Rabastan go right Jugson and Dolohov - straight ahead (not the time-room, they don't go in there, at least not right away) Macnair & Avery - through here (possibly the time-room) Mulciber come with me (LM) Rookwood - over there Now, presuming the DE's all stay with who they are told to go with: Two DE's come into the time room. It cannot be Bella & Rudy, as Harry would know Bella. It cannot be Malfoy & Mulciber as Harry knows Malfoy. Rookwood is alone, so I presume it is not him. One is hit with a spell and crashes into a grandfather clock, the spell or crash stopping him for the moment at least. The other DE is hit with a spell and goes through the bell jar. HHN go into an office, probably off the time-room, where two more DE's enter. Neville is kicked in the face, Hermione is attacked and we know Dolohov did that, so I would think Jugson would be the DE with him. Both are caught in a Body-bind but we know that doesn't last long (and may not last very long at all on more powerful wizards particularly when the spell is cast by students no matter how powerful). HHN are joined, in the round room with 12 doors, by Ron, Luna and Ginny. 3 DE's enter lead by Bella. So I presume one of the other two is Rudy. The other could be Rookwood or whichever DE was left in the time room. The DA members got to the brain room, colloportussed all the doors but the one 5 DE's entered, again lead by Bella. So it would be Bella, Rudy, and three un-named but it makes sense to me that it would be Dolohov and Jugson catching up from the 'office' after being petrified. That part doesn't really matter. (It is amazing, though, how well those DE's get around this place when it seems such a mystery when anyone else talks about it.) Harry runs to the Death Chamber, followed by the same 5 DE's who were in the brain room and the other 5 appear as well. The DE's we *know* are in the Death Chamber are: Malfoy, Dolohov, Bella, Macnair, and Rookwood. We know Bella excapes with LV and Nott is injured as well as whoever went through the bell jar. Harry had heard Macnair's voice in PoA although only a few words, perhaps not enough to recognize it in another, panic filled moment. We know Macnair is around later in the Death Chamber, anyway so he couldn't have gone through the bell jar. Harry should recognize Crabbe's voice from the graveyard in GoF although he would never have seen his face due to a mask. However, Crabbe, Jr is still at Hogwarts at the end of the summer term. Would he have not been at home by then, visiting his father in St Mungo's if it had been Crabbe, Sr who went though the bell jar? That leaves Avery (who Harry dreamed about but never saw) and Rabastan Lestrange (who HHN would all have seen pictures of in the Daily Prophet and in Hogsmeade but none of them appear to recognize the baby DE in the bell jar. Makes me think it was Avery. However, sorry this is so long. My main point is not who went through the bell jar, but I am now firmly convinced the remaining 9 DE's are in Azkaban. For however long, now the Dementors have revolted, I don't know. Cathy - pick it apart as you will but be gentle, my brain hasn't worked this hard in years! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lavaluvn at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 09:22:00 2004 From: lavaluvn at yahoo.com (lavaluvn) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 09:22:00 -0000 Subject: Snape-aholics and Siriophiles and...? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105462 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "curly_of_oster" wrote: > Kneasy recently said: > In the constant to-ing and fro-ing about Snape and Sirius which > seems to be one of the dividing lines between the fans, I think > there's a basic mis-understanding of where some people are coming > from. I think that I can claim credit for first using the > identifying labels "Siriophiles" and "Snape-aholics" that highlights > the difference. > > Siriophiles *like* Sirius; they think he's lovely, sexy, maltreated > and for all his faults basically cuddly. > > Snape-aholics find ole Sevvy fascinating, they can't get enough of > him, but they're under no illusions - he is a deeply unpleasant > character. Most of them would/will probably be disappointed if he > ever reforms. > Ooh, can I then stake my claim on "Snapeophiliacs"? Sounds like a dreadful disease, hmm? I believe that there are folks out there who also find ole Sevvy to not only be fascinating, but naughty and sexy, in his own bad boy way, too. Personally, I think this goes under the "too eewww" category, but they are out there (you know who you are). Maybe it is Alan Rickman's fault. Snape-aholics are probably a much more inclusive group, fascinated by the character, but possibly detesting him as a "person". Or at least as a teacher. I certainly wouldn't want to be in his class. Snape-apologists go a step beyond and attempt to justify his seemingly unjustifiable actions. IE, "he's trying to prepare them for the real world" instead of just "he hates the boy because he hated the father." Do I have all that right? Now Siriophiles are pretty straightforward: -philiacs, -apologists and -aholics rolled into one. And they certainly aren't mutually exclusive groups, as SSSusan has repeatedly proved. Cheers, -Andromeda From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sat Jul 10 09:37:16 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 05:37:16 -0400 Subject: Draco Malfoy Message-ID: <001b01c46661$7d24ef90$81c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 105463 Carol said: "But Draco wasn't told by his father that Voldemort was back. He was in school when it happened. It was Dumbledore who made the announcement at the end of the year feast, when he tells the students that Voldemort murdered Cedric" Cathy now: But isn't it odd that Draco and his lot appear to be the only ones who believe it? Harry finds out, when he returns to school in OotP, that most of the kids, even kids in his own year, in his own house, don't believe that LV is back, and think both Harry and DD are delusional. Hermione pointed out that, as Harry wasn't there at breakfast the morning after he returned back from the Graveyard, that DD had just said LV had returned, Cedric had been killed him, and Harry and fought him. Hermione said that she didn't think the kids had time to digest it before they went home. Carol: "I can't see Harry saving Draco, much less Draco going over to the other side." Cathy again: Did I say Draco is going over to the other side? I must have lost track of my thoughts if I did as I don't believe that for a second. What I did think, until a post I read yesterday, and now I'm not sure what I think, is that at some moment in the next two books, there is going to be a massive battle. At some point in that battle Harry is going to have to make a decision to 'stay here and do this, or go there and do that' and his decision would leave Ron vulnerable and, while saving Draco, he would lose Ron. I'm not saying Harry will necessarily *know* he is saving Draco, or saving him intentionally, but the action he takes saves Draco and loses Ron. Carol again: "You mentioned Goyle Sr. in the part of your post that I snipped. It's true that he wasn't named by Lucius Malfoy in what amounts to a roll call of the DEs present in the MoM, but he could be the baby-headed Death Eater, who was out of the picture at that point if I recall correctly." Cathy again: Actually, only Nott was injured before the "roll call" of names. I thought, for a long time, that Nott was the one who went through the bell jar, but it is not him, we don't know which of the 12 DE's it was. So two are injured, Bella is with LV, and DD says "you will find several escaped DE's contained in the Death Chamber." We don't know if several is all the rest - 9 - or some of the others escaped before DD got there and rounded them up. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lysandrabellargus at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jul 10 10:54:58 2004 From: lysandrabellargus at yahoo.co.uk (Sandra) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:54:58 -0000 Subject: Tom -not LV- as the HBP/JKR-Dobby Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105464 I was just thinking (and I hope it was not posted a million times before), that JKR's quote about the HBP not being neither Harry nor Voldemort, and `that's all I am going to say on THAT subject', could be a kind of Dobby'esk clue like in CoS. But I am not convinced myself. What do we know about Tom Riddle becoming LV? We know that Dumbledore addresses him as Tom in OoP, and we know that Tom has used the name LV with his closest friends (future DE?)when he was at school. Could it be that Tom rejected the muggle half in him so much, that he kind of killed Tom to fully become the powerful yet heartless LV? -by the way what would he see in the mirror, if he really has no heart, does his desires for power count for the mirror?. Dumbledore says in OoP to Tom/LV: `there are other ways of destroying a man than killing him' (not exact quote, sorry) I agree, the connection between CoS and book six must be to do with this backstory of Tom/LV, and also with this whole (stupid) pureblood idea. By the way, hello there, I am new here and already enjoying the fantastic thoughts and musings of everybody - and I am more of a Snape-aholic Sandra From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sat Jul 10 10:01:13 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 06:01:13 -0400 Subject: Boggart/ Patronus Musings - Quote Lupin Message-ID: <002c01c46664$d5b86210$81c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 105465 Carol: >not as good as his friends at > Transfiguration or he wouldn't have to study for the O.W.L., enderbean: I'd have to disagree with you on that. Just because you study doesn't mean you don't know the material. Lupin seems to me the type of guy that would go over and over the material until he took the test. You know, one of those over-achieving A+ students. Studying just shows he's responsible not that he's particularly bad at the subject. Now Cathy: Just look at Hermione the morning of the Charms exam reading 'Achievements in Charming' so fast her eyes, to Harry, looked blurred. She knew the material, by then, if anyone did. It was, as enderbean said of Lupin, 'going over and over the matierial until he [she in this case] took the test. Or, it could just be a way for Hermione, who loves books, to steady her nerves. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Sat Jul 10 10:33:47 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 10 Jul 2004 10:33:47 -0000 Subject: Lucius, James and Sirius Message-ID: <20040710103347.15022.qmail@webmail7.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105466 >> Alla: >> I am sorry to be annoying, but I am still confused. To make a long >> story short, I guess, my question will be: >> Who is expecting Snape to act unfair, abusive,(whatever) to Harry? >> If your answer is Voldemort, my next question will be Why? Amey: Maybe Malfoy, because he seems to be the ring-leader of the remaining DEs. And after all, some scars never heal. Harry is the son of one of his worst enemis ever and godson of another. >> Carol responds: >> Most likely LV kept >> Peter's identity a secret from all but his most trusted DEs. Lucius >> and Bellatrix may have known, Amey: The prisoners in Azkaban knew all right, because Sirius heard them cursing him thinking him to be the cause of The Downfall. >> Angie: > I wonder how Lucius gained possession of Voldemort's diary in the > first place. If he got it from Voldemort, who knows what other > things of Voldemort's Lucius has hidden? Does this not suggest > that Lucius is VERY close to Voldemort? Amey: As I said, he seems to be the ring-leader. How he came across it is a mystery, especially since he could never be one of "most intimate friends" of Tom who was with Tom in school. Also, he is supposed to think of "A plot to make most terrible things happen at Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry this year". With whom? Crabbe and Goyle it can't be if their sons are any indication. Also why "this year"? I mean he could do it earlier. In that year there were no special signals that LV was coming back. Is it just because JKR thought? Or is there anything else special happening that year? Any people thinking of Ginny here? I think Malfoy needs to be kept under watch (I hear many people saying I told you so.:)) >> KB responds: >> Did 11-year-old Tom Riddle buy the wand and Ollivander know TR turned into >> LV (how? I don't think this was common knowledge -- I might be reading >> things wrong, but even DD only suspected the connection before CoS?) Amey: Dumbledore knew it long before that. He says "Hardly anyone connected Lord Voldemort with the clever, handsome boy who was once Head Boy here." So he knew the connection, and obviously seeing that fawkes is his pet (I am assuming he had Fawkes then also), he must be notified when Tom picked the first wand (as with Harry). Of course that points ot Fawkes having some more history than just Dumbledore (and we have some theories for that). Anyone for Fawkes as HBP? :) >> Carol >> As for Lupin, who of course isn't an animagus and certainly wouldn't >> have a werewolf Patronus, I think we don't see his Patronus because he >> can't quite cast one, DADA instructor or not. All we see on both his >> attempts is a bright light from his wand. Not particularly good with >> potions or he wouldn't rely on Snape, not as good as his friends at >> Transfiguration or he wouldn't have to study for the O.W.L., Amey: He was able to ward off dementor on the train, so he can produce Patronus ("when it works correctly, It conjures up a Patronus".) I think just wisp of smoke is not powerful enough. We have some proof of that. Even we don't know what form Dumbledore's Patronus takes? I suggest they are so powerful that it just whooshes at great speed instead of charging, (something like supersonic fighter.. hey that's an interesting idea for Patronus). And we know he is powerful enough to cast spells without saying them out loud. As for the potion, it is complicated, it is not his speciality and Snape is Potions Teacher, as he reminds us. About transfiguration, we don't have any canon there, but given his history he must be good, if not brilliant. As for studying, I hear many people crying Hermione here, so I won't say it again. Do I hear the start of Lupin-bashing here? >> Carol >> Snape fans (not apologists, >> please: he's not Voldemort) to defend him. Amey: Point taken. I am one of the persons who don't like Snape, but believe him just evil, not dark. As for other point (naming Sirius as Black, to make both of them equal), I think that is the crux of the story. He is Sirius (always referred to by first name, denoting affection), the guardian of Harry, the highly loyal friend and godfather. Snape is last name, given respect (maybe because of him being teacher, maybe fear for his dark powers, maybe because "nobody loves him" to call him affectionately). Except Dumbledore, nobody calls him by first name, but he calls everybody by first name. >> Valky: >> Sirius certainly >> seemed to believe so and I think Sirius psyche is our strongest link >> to the truth about this incedent. Amey: Bingo!!! He and Lupin are the only persons who can even remotely come close to say without any prejudice how he was. I know he was their friend and he is dead. But if neeeded they are saying he was a bit of "idiot" then and that will be taken as proper judgement. So I agree entirely. Also one more point here, do you think Sirius can leave James alone to save Snape? (If not for noble purpose, I would have thought it as one more adventure.) Also for Sirius fans, I have come up with one more point: 'Yeah,' said Harry, 'but he just attacked Snape for no good reason, just because - well, just because you said you were bored,' he finished, with a slightly apologetic note in his voice. 'I'm not proud of it,' said Sirius quickly. Beat this, Sirius bashers!!!! Amey, who thinks he has again started the Sirius Wars [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From briggielockyer at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 11:36:10 2004 From: briggielockyer at yahoo.com (briggielockyer) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 11:36:10 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle in CoS In-Reply-To: <42.527d3d37.2e20d1bc@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105467 Sonya wrote: What did Mr. > Malfoy hope to gain from passing on the Diary? If he was hoping to bring Tom > back so he could become LV again (and the killings) would that make Mr. Malfoy a > 'good' DE? Brigitte: I am not sure that Malfoy had any idea that the book mighy bring back LV/TR at all. He knows that the last time the chamber was opened the school was almost closed. I think that LM just wanted to get DD out of the school. LM might then hope to get someone else appointed as headmaster (maybe even himself) that would carry on the Slytherin persuasion of not teaching those with Muggle blood. Brigitte From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sat Jul 10 13:35:54 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 13:35:54 -0000 Subject: The Mirror and the Heart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105468 SSSusan again: > So if DD did have an inkling that Voldy was close by somewhere, does > that support my theory at all, that the whole thing was set up as a > test for Harry? That that's why DD didn't DO more about this > information? I mean, how can DD know so MUCH sometimes and then NOT > know things like this? That frustrates me as a reader! Neri responded: > > How much had DD planed the Harry-finding-the-Stone-in-the-Mirror > scenario from the outset? I don't know. There are certainly some > inconsistencies in DD's official explanation of how it worked. But > there are also inconsistencies in the pensieve or the time travel > stories. We shouldn't dig TOO deep into them. This is after all a > story and not RL. The general meaning of the Mirror setup, if not the > exact details, is clear from DD's explanation: only someone with a > sincere, unselfish intention could have found the Stone. Jen: I always liked this scene, where Dumbledore explains why Harry was able to get the stone. In typical Dumbledore fashion, he made his contribution to the protection very simple, relying on the innate goodness of most people. He simply made it impossible for Voldemort or anyone else with evil intentions to get the stone, leaving room for people with good intentions. Good vs. Evil intent is why Quirrell couldn't get the stone. No, he's not going to personally use the stone himself, but he *is* going to give the stone to someone with sinister plans. I think the mirror can make this distinction, if it is capable of looking into a person's heart and discovering their true desires. Jen From meriaugust at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 13:47:53 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 13:47:53 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle in CoS In-Reply-To: <42.527d3d37.2e20d1bc@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105469 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Madydea at a... wrote: > Do you think memory Tom knew what had happened to LV since he made the > MemoryTom? To start off a bit OT in this reply, about a year before Order came out I wrote down a list of questions that I wanted the book to answer (which girl is Harry gonna end up with? Will Sirius and Harry get to spend time together? etc.) and one of the questions I asked was "How did Tom Riddle's diary know about events that had happened over forty years after its writing, especially Harry's defeat of LV?" and when I read the list about six months before the book came out the answer dawned on me: that Ginny told the diary, of course. I believe Tom says himself that Ginny spoke all about brave Harry Potter who defeated the Dark Lord, etc, etc. And that's how he knew to target Harry through Ginny. Anyway, that's all I have to say about that. Meri - hoping the List Elves will not be shipping off Howlers to me for my OT post... From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 14:19:01 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 14:19:01 -0000 Subject: HP and the Half Blood Git In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105470 snip "caesian" wrote: snip.> > Some might say that a central message in the Septology is that the world is not divided > into Good People and Death Eaters. I would agree. But in the case of Snape, I'll guide that > point to it's logical conclusion - that the world is not divided into Death Eaters and people > who aren't Evil Gits. Snape might not be a Death Eater. He might be helping Dumbledore. > He might even die a heroic death in glorious sacrifice for Harry, or some such. But he Is > evil. Not irredeemable (if Tom Riddle can experience forgiveness, who can't?). But alot > worse than "not a nice guy". He's a bad guy. He might not be a death eater, but that > doesn't make him good. Alla: OK. let me just say that I found the title of your post to be absolutely hysterical. Now, I have to not drink my coffee while I am reading your posts too (I thought I have to be careful only while I read Kneasy posts) I am also in complete agreement with you. Not being a DE does not, does not make Snape a good person, IMO. Adequate treatment of the human beings around him does. I think Koinonia said recently that we are using the word "redemption" too easily. I agree. Snape is working at redemption,I guess. But he is not redeemed himself yet, IMO. Very far from it. snip. Caesian: > And so I hope the HBP is our proud, nasty Potions Master. Voldemort and Tom Riddle may > not remain a cardboard Villain, or so I hope. Snape, on the other hand, is already perhaps > the most compelling character in the books. I want to know why. > Alla: I want to know that too, but I am still hoping that Lupin will turn out to be HBP. From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sat Jul 10 13:21:46 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 09:21:46 -0400 Subject: Mundungus (was Power in JKR's magic (was: Boggart/ Patronus Musings - Quote Lupin)) Message-ID: <000e01c46680$e0c30220$36c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 105471 Neri said: "We see the same principal in a simpler form in Mundungus: He is useful because he knows all the crooks. He knows them because, as Sirius notes, he is a crook himself. But this is useful only because Mundungus will not betray DD. This was Mundungus' single non-crooked moral choice." This is interesting because, on my last pass through OotP something very odd popped out at me and I'm hoping I'm completely wrong. After The Quibbler article came out, Fred and George daringly enlarged the cover and put it on the common room wall. It was saying things like "the ministry are morons" and "eat dung, Umbridge." Over the course of the evening, as the spell wore off, the poster only uttered part statements, Quote " disconnected words like 'Dung' and 'Umbridge' " Unquote We know Mundungus would sell his mother for a Knut. Is this a shadow of him getting himself into a mess with Umbridge? Or do we all think we've seen the last of the toad-lady? Sirius only says "But he's [Mundungus}also very loyal to Dumbledore, who helped him out of a tight spot once." Sirius doesn't say, and personally I don't think it is intimated, that MF won't betray DD. And he might not do it knowingly, but get himself into such a bind he can only see one way out. Crook or not, he doesn't seem like the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree to me. Just a passing thought. Cathy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From victoria at missionary.com.sg Sat Jul 10 13:53:40 2004 From: victoria at missionary.com.sg (dawnflight1984) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 13:53:40 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle - Riddle murders In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105472 Wanda Sherratt wrote: > How old was Tom Riddle when the Riddles were murdered? Did it happen > before the basilisk incident in Cos, or after? I'm not quite sure > which came first, and if Tom was still a student when his father and > grandparents were killed, or had just graduated. I wonder if it really matters whether Tom was still a student or has already graduated. One thing was for sure, he wasn't an underaged wizard at that time, meaning he's probably at least 17 then and he murdered them before he was Voldemort. Right? From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat Jul 10 14:41:19 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 14:41:19 -0000 Subject: Snape-aholics and Siriophiles and...? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105473 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lavaluvn" wrote: > > Ooh, can I then stake my claim on "Snapeophiliacs"? Sounds like a > dreadful disease, hmm? I believe that there are folks out there who > also find ole Sevvy to not only be fascinating, but naughty and > sexy, in his own bad boy way, too. Personally, I think this goes > under the "too eewww" category, but they are out there (you know who > you are). Maybe it is Alan Rickman's fault. > Kneasy: You'll have to speak for yourself on this one; the convoluted reasonings of the female mind are terra incognita so far as I'm concerned. (Naughty? Sexy? What can you mean?) > A: > Snape-aholics are probably a much more inclusive group, fascinated > by the character, but possibly detesting him as a "person". Or at > least as a teacher. I certainly wouldn't want to be in his class. > Kneasy: Hardly 'detest'. A slow shake of the head, more in sorrow than in anger. "Dear, oh dear, oh dear. What have you done now," sort of thing. Detestation is indicative of Snape-ophobia. Easily recognised; the posts tend to consist of short declarative sentences. The word 'evil' also tends to crop up a lot. > A: > Snape-apologists go a step beyond and attempt to justify his > seemingly unjustifiable actions. IE, "he's trying to prepare them > for the real world" instead of just "he hates the boy because he > hated the father." > Do I have all that right? > Kneasy: It's my understanding that they generally go further - they don't see the need for any reasonable justification for his actions at all. "It's just Snape, JKR wrote him that way - accept it," is a common line. Strangely, it's normally the Snape-aholics that come up with the theories explaining why. (Don't blame me, 'Snape-apologists' isn't one of mine so I don't really appreciate the subtleties of the term. I could be entirely wrong.) > Now Siriophiles are pretty straightforward: -philiacs, -apologists > and -aholics rolled into one. > > And they certainly aren't mutually exclusive groups, as SSSusan has > repeatedly proved. > Kneasy: Hmm. Well, by her email tag SSSusan hails from Chicago. Such things are to be expected. We must be kind to her. From musicofsilence at hotmail.com Sat Jul 10 14:44:37 2004 From: musicofsilence at hotmail.com (lifeavantgarde) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 14:44:37 -0000 Subject: James the Berk?/ James vs. Vernon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105474 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > > Stefanie wrote : > > > > I love James because he had a family, and loved his family; I > > > > find that *very* important. > > I, Del, replied : > > > Uh... Vernon has a family and loves his family. We see him > > > repeatedly putting himself between them and whatever danger seems > > > to be menacing them. But nobody loves Vernon, right ? > > Stefanie responded : > > Again, I find this hard because James's situation is such that we > > can't see him futher along in his family life for obvious reasons. I > > do recognize your point, (and I do admit, I got flustered opening up > > your post :o) ) > > Del replies : > Sorry ! It's just that I remarked to my husband just a few days ago > that no matter how horrible Vernon might be to Harry, at least he's a > nice husband and father (though, as JKR pointed out, his treatment of > Dudley is actually bad parenting and won't be good for Dudley in the > end), and he sure defends his family in the face of danger. So of > course, when I read your post about James, I was immediately reminded > of Vernon. Stefanie wrote : > > Is it valid to put a member of the old Order of the Phoenix > > (something that says just a bit about one's willingness to extend > > sacrificial love) > > Del replies : > Er... Might I remind you that Peter Pettigrew was also a member of the > Order ? And Severus Snape still is ? I don't think either of them > could be described as being full as "sacrificial love", could they ? Stefanie Oy! I definitely concede on this point! So very true! (And yet another reason why I shouldn't post on an all-nighter ;o) ) I think with this, it goes along with knowing what the character did next (something we obviously can't know in James's case). I guess with this, in contrast to Vernon, from what we know about James at this point (his "hatred of the Dark Arts" included, and how we've seen him put his life on the line for others before [regardless of who he was going in with intentions of benefiting, going after Snape during "The Prank" put his life in immediate danger]) I see his going into the order as a genuine effort to "fight for the good side" -- perhaps I'm taking too much for granted...but characterization points that way so far. With this, James took an offensive stance, not being passive until the last moment -- which, in all honesty, would've been the easier route; and which seems to be the route Vernon takes. > Stefanie wrote : > > on a level with someone who in the majority of encounters with "The > > Threat" has been more concerned about decorum than the safety of his > > family? > > Del replies : > ... but is still someone who *never* failed to protect his family when > faced with immediate unknown danger. Vernon is scared of magic, but he > will never abandon his family when faced with a magical danger. We > can't deny him that one quality : sacrificial love for his family. Stefanie: With my original post of "loving James because he had a family," I give this as a reason to people who ask me "why not Sirius then?" in regards to my favorite character. It's the rest of him that that I pointed to that makes me adore him, too. If it were solely because he has a family then I may as well insert any of the fathers that we've met so far in James's place. It's the rest of his character that's been fleshed out in conjunction with his maturation and "settling down" that I think makes him fascinating... Through it all, in the end James sacrificed himself without a second thought (if we believe the voice Harry hears during the Dementor attacks is actually James ;o) ) and that moment is what defines him in these books -- James and Lily are constantly referred to as "being murdered by Voldemort." What moment has defined Vernon? >From what we know so far (and I'm not putting anything past JKR, mind you) what defines James and what defines Vernon put them into very seperate camps indeed! Stefanie, who is signing off for a week and is looking forward to spending good time catching up come next Saturday! (and henceforth reminds everyone to hug their James today :o) ) From tzakis1225 at netzero.com Sat Jul 10 14:49:10 2004 From: tzakis1225 at netzero.com (demetra1225) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 14:49:10 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105475 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > Alla: > [snip] > To me, Voldemort's logical expectations of Snape will be to pretend > being Harry's friend (HAHAHA!) , get closer to him and then capture > him , kill him, etc. > > > What am I missing? > > Why Voldemort will expect Snape to be horrible to Harry? Demetra: Good question, Alla. I think that Voldemort realizes that there is little that can be done, such as capturing Harry and/or delivering him to LV, while at Hogwarts with Dumbledore there. Look at the elaborate plan that was put together to get Harry to the graveyard in GoF. If it was as easy as pretending to be Harry's friend at Hogwarts then AK'ing him, then why didn't Crouch/Moody just do it? I think that LV uses Snape to report back on Dumbledore's activities, and LV doesn't want to lose that. Doing this doesn't require Snape having Harry's trust, only Dumbledore's. Now, I admit LV may not require or expect Snape to be horrible to Harry, but he sure wouldn't expect him to be *nice* to Harry. Plus, the memories of Snape being nasty to Harry probably give Snape some nice little memories for LV to see when he performs Legilimency, while Snape hides the Order related stuff. And I do believe that Snape does enjoy reveling in his nastiness. He's not a nice person, but I believe that he is on the side of good. Demetra, who has 6 loads of laundry waiting to be done but is desperately trying to catch up on the 200 posts she is behind on reading From tookishgirl_111 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 14:32:29 2004 From: tookishgirl_111 at yahoo.com (tookishgirl_111) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 14:32:29 -0000 Subject: Snape-aholics and Siriophiles and...? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105476 Kneasy recently said: > > In the constant to-ing and fro-ing about Snape and Sirius which > > seems to be one of the dividing lines between the fans... Andromeda wrote: > And they certainly aren't mutually exclusive groups, as SSSusan has > repeatedly proved. > I always found the fact that, for the most part, the lines appear rather divided as I find the two characters remarkably similar at times. Both seem to have come from troubled homes, both have trouble letting old grudges die, neither seem to be able to extend or accept apologies, and both can be usually cruel to others (though most often to each). And yet, again generally speaking, fans often think one disgustingly evil and the other merely a hero in diguise. I, personally, am one of those fans who loves both characters. I am both Snape-aholic and Siriophile. I enjoy the fact that Snape is not a good guy and shows no real desire to ever become one - it's true to his personality and a sudden change from that (ie being nice to Harry) would ruin him as a character. On the other hand, I like the bad-boyness of Sirius and if had ever apologized to Snape for his behavior as teen and adult I thinks I would have been greatly disappointed. Tooks - Snape-aholic, Siriophile, and proud to be both - Hope I "snipped" correctly From donpietro69 at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jul 10 14:43:25 2004 From: donpietro69 at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Lee=20Moyo?=) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 15:43:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Tom Riddle - Riddle murders In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040710144325.8031.qmail@web25105.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105477 Wanda Sherratt wrote: > How old was Tom Riddle when the Riddles were murdered? Did it happen > before the basilisk incident in Cos, or after? I'm not quite sure > which came first, and if Tom was still a student when his father and > grandparents were killed, or had just graduated. dawnflight1984 wrote: I wonder if it really matters whether Tom was still a student or has already graduated. One thing was for sure, he wasn't an underaged wizard at that time, meaning he's probably at least 17 then and he murdered them before he was Voldemort. Right? Lee: That is true but as DD pointed out, after Tom left School he disappeared for a long time and went many different changes before he came out calling him self LV. So he could have done it any time between that period. --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Sat Jul 10 15:12:25 2004 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 15:12:25 -0000 Subject: FILK: Red Howler Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105478 Red Howler (OOP, Chap. 2) To the tune of the theme from Green Acres http://www.maggiore.net/greenacres/gatheme.asp Dedicated to Ginger THE SCENE: Four Privet Drive. The final in a lengthy series of owls delivers a message to Petunia PETUNIA Red Howler is addressed to me An owl just made delivery It dropped the letter on my head HARRY That's a memo Whose message won't go unsaid VERNON Out, now! In our house you can't stay With all your magic disarray I should have done this years ago Voldything wants you So move out of our chateau PETUNIA & VERNON (noting the action of the Howler) It smokes! HARRY No joke! PETUNIA & VERNON It burns! HARRY (sticking his fingers in both ears) Sounds stern! HOWLER REMEMBER MY LAST! PETUNIA OK, I'm steadfast. ALL THREE: We/They won't young Potter spurn! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jul 10 15:15:51 2004 From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:15:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040710151551.91221.qmail@web25301.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105479 aboutthe1910s wrote: > Udderpd again > > Again I have re-read the whole section we have been discussingPages 403 to 408 in the UK edition. > > We have quite firm evidence in the rest of the book that HP/CC is a no go, so lets look at what is happening. > > Hermione is distracted and mainly concerned with her letter to Viktor when Ron says, "Are you that bad at kissing?" > > Harry answers "Dunno, maybe I am." > > "Of course your not," said Hermione absently, still scribbling away at her letter. > > "How do you know?" said Ron very sharply. > > Does this bring her to her senses because shortly after Hermione says two things both to Ron: > > "Ron, you are the most insensitive wart I have ever had the misfortune to meet." then less than half a page later. "Just because you have the emotional range of a teaspoon doesn't mean we all have." > > I think that here we have Hermione setting out her stall; Ron your one of my best friends but I don't fancy you; and Harry I promise I have never cried when I have dreamed of kissing you. > > I believe that Ron is worried about the trio. > > Lastly, Harry still wouldn't know romance if it bit him om the nose. aboutthe1910s wrote I took the "Of course you're not" more to mean that Hermione understands what is actually going on with Cho (and hopefully is mildly...disgusted is too strong, but some watered down version of that). I took the insulting of Ron to imply both that she thinks that he is a moron for not realizing that she likes him and also that she herself is still uncomforable with her feelings for him. Just to offer an alternative reading of the section... UdderPD again Let me start by saying that I am an 'obselete old dingbat' (63 year old male). If ever a girl had said to me that I was the most insensitive prat she had ever had the misfortune to meet and that I had the emotional range of a teaspoon, inside two minutes; I would have no illusions as to how much she liked me. Ron and Hermione fight because they are almost total opposites, without Harry as the catalyst I doubt they would ever talk to each other socialy. Can you really imagine Hermione staying home to cook for Ron then sitting meekly listening while he babbled on about Quidditch? I am digressing sorry. Hermione said "Of course your not," ( with reference to Harry's kissing ability) without even thinking and as soon as Ron says "How do you know?" very sharply. She realises what she has given away and tries to cover up by talking about Cho and telling Ron exactly where he stands. Harry has too much on his mind to worry about romance; within an hour of all this he is in the Headmasters office talking about the snake biting Arthur W. TTFN Udder Pen Dragon ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From melclaros at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 15:39:12 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 15:39:12 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes (or Snape-aholics and Siriophiles) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105480 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "curly_of_oster" > Huh??? Clearly I have spent at least some time in a very different > HP fandom than you have. :-) Seriously, though, in HP fandom I have > encountered just as many Snape fans who "like" him in exactly the > way you're describing "Siriophiles" liking Sirius as I have > Snape fans who find him a fascinating if deeply unpleasant > *character*. And by the same token, I know of a number of fans of > Sirius who would never in a million years describe him as "cuddly." I've seen that 'fandom'. It's the fic-contaminated one. The one that insists Snape's a peer of the realm and all he needs needs is a cuddle and even in some cases that Hermione is the only-one-ever-born destined to give it (that cuddle, that is) to him and solve all his earthly woes. It can be diverting, for sure, in oh so many ways, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with canon. The movies have made it worse. > > Lisa: > But not everybody does seem to "know" these things. I have seen it > argued that Snape treats everyone equally, for example. Me Well yes and no. The argument in that direction is usually more along the lines of *we don't KNOW* how he treats anyone other than those we've seen. We've only ever seen the classes in which Harry's been present. We've never been privy to after hours in the Slyth common room. As far as his relationships with adults go, they seem quite normal. Lisa I've seen > it stated as fact that he has such a strong "moral code" that he > would save you even if he hates you (based entirely, as far as I > could see, on the counter-cursing the broom episode in PS/SS). Me Moral code or not, actions from the PS/SS counter-curse and the intervention in the Shrieking Shack all the way to informing the Order in PoA are CANON. It still doesn't make him 'nice' though. Lisa >However, I also think that wanting to know > about/thinking there is a back-story and motivation for certain > actions (say, his treatment of Harry and Neville, to use one of your > examples) is no more valid than theorizing that he's treating >them that way simply because he is a bitter, nasty man. me: Huh? What's 'valid' got to do with it? Maybe some folk want to know 'why' he's a bitter, nasty man. Mel From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Sat Jul 10 15:59:00 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 15:59:00 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle - Riddle murders In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105481 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dawnflight1984" wrote: > > I wonder if it really matters whether Tom was still a student or has > already graduated. One thing was for sure, he wasn't an underaged > wizard at that time, meaning he's probably at least 17 then and he > murdered them before he was Voldemort. Right? The underage magic thing had occurred to me, too - they were killed in the summer, so wouldn't 3 AKs by an underaged wizard outside of school have been noticed by the MoM? Mostly, I'm just trying to get the timeline straight in my own mind, because I do think that Tom Riddle's history is going to be an important theme in the next book. I remember a series of old drawings, tracing "The Rake's Progress", showing a man's decline and fall. Well, I'm interested in "Tom Riddle's Progress", and would like to know just when he started down the wrong path, and if it was obvious at the time. Wanda From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Jul 10 16:15:00 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:15:00 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105482 > Alla: > > I am sorry to be annoying, but I am still confused. To make a long story short, I guess, my question will be: > > Who is expecting Snape to act unfair, abusive,(whatever) to Harry? > > If your answer is Voldemort, my next question will be Why? > > To me, Voldemort's logical expectations of Snape will be to pretend being Harry's friend (HAHAHA!) , get closer to him and then capture him , kill him, etc. > > > What am I missing? > > Why Voldemort will expect Snape to be horrible to Harry? I am guessing that the Snape who joined Voldemort was a lot more like the Snape that we see in the Pensieve scene than the Snape we know now--someone who was, as Snape put it in OOP, "easy prey for the Dark Lord!" someone who was one of those "Fools who wear their hearts proudly on their sleeves, who cannot control their emotions, who wallow in sad memories and allow themselves to be provoked so easily--weak people, in other words..." The Snape that Voldemort knew of old would have hated Harry for James's sake and would not have been capable of concealing it. Snape is thus the last person Voldemort would think could be a spy--for *either* side Of course this interpretation requires that Voldemort not be aware of Dumbledore's testimony at Karkaroff's trial, but we can deduce that this was concealed because Sirius, who was very interested in Karkaroff, didn't know about it. (GoF 27) I suspect Voldemort knows little of how cunning Snape can be, values him solely for his potion-making skills, and thinks that Dumbledore does the same. Thus, Voldemort would not have revealed himself as Quirrellmort in PS/SS because he wouldn't think Snape would be any use to him. Voldemort would take at face value Quirrell's estimation -- Snape hates Harry but doesn't want him dead -- as the reason Snape saved Harry from falling off the broom. What better revenge on James could there be than to put his son in the same position that James put Snape--having to live with the fact that he owes his life to someone he hates? Voldemort would take Snape's clumsy failure to avoid being mauled by Fluffy and his equally clumsy attempt to intimidate Quirrell as further evidence that Snape is useless except at potion making. He would think, just as Harry did, that Snape wanted the Stone for himself. In which case Snape could hardly be expected to help Quirrell steal it! Voldemort believed at the end of GoF that Snape had left him for ever, but Snape's return would of course prove that he hadn't. No doubt Voldemort thinks, and JKR has hinted that Dumbledore is worried about this too, that the lure of the Dark Arts was simply too strong in the end for Snape to resist. Pippin From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sat Jul 10 16:21:38 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:21:38 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105483 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > Valky wrote : James only uses physically non-harmful hexes Snape ( I won't say harmless because I concede the truth of psychological harm), Snape employs a more dangerous attack on James than James even considers unleashing on Snape. Although I accept that James was indeed having a bit o' a lark at Snapes expense I see he was *already noble*. > > Del replied so duty calls.... > > Aha! It starts! Firstly lets bow and make honour Del, this may get bloody. LOL, Just kidding! But incedently did the Snape Fangs quip rope you in? Well it's a bit late for apologies now, hey. Gloves are off and I did vow to defend...... Please take none of this personally I'm a bit of a method actor.. :) Ok, Del says: > I have to respectfully disagree on that point. > > The reason James and Snape used different kinds of spells is that > their *goals* were different, not their mindsets. Valky replies: Ok, I'll get out my trusty cut and paste function... hang on a mo... I did indeed back this statement with some hint that I might throw canon at you to prove that, if James were more powerful than Snape, or Snape was not powerful enough, then Snapes attack could have been intended a mortal wounding. Then, due only to the lack of magical power behind it, rather than lack of intention, resulted in the mere cutting of James' face. You want some canon? "the Avada Kedavra's a curse that needs a powerful bit of magic behind it - you could all get your wands out now and point them at me and say the words, and I doubt I'd get so much as a nose-bleed." Crouch!Moody, GOF, Chapter 14 The Unforgivable Curses Therefore, I put to you Del, is it not beyond reasonable doubt that this influence could apply to other magic? If indeed you can show me where a doubt is reasonable....... Now, reminded that we are speaking of a boy only 15 attempting *possibly* a curse that *could* (most probably would! for my mind but again just mho) inflict a mortal wound upon the recipient. And, mind that I am postulating of course but isn't that what we do with Snape ;P. The chance is, he isn't powerful enough to do it, yet. But he's practicing, and he *would* choose that curse over such thing as a slug hex or something less ummmm well sinister. "...only because you're too noble to use them..." ring a bell to you at all? But James, who although he dislikes Snape, doesn't really want to put the boys life at risk, would rather be content to, in his own dunderhead act before he thinks way, demonstrate to Snape that Dark magic is no substitute for the talent of a wizard like him. So he uses silly hexes. The teasing and humiliation is a byline to it all. (Well there's not enough canon to actually prove that yet, but there will be.) I am only pointing out that James drew the line at killing or actually physically harming him but it is likely, very likely that Snape didn't. Even after Snape did throw the curse that cut his face, FROM BEHIND, he did not retaliate he humiliated. Could James mind not be "This is teaching the coward some humility." Snape, after all, is part of a Slytherin Racial Prejudice Gang. Point made. Flourish with a note from my clipboard.... ....we cannot judge that James was not already noble in using milder counterhexes. Sirius certainly seemed to believe so........... Del continues: > James was trying to *humiliate* Snape, not to necessarily hurt him. > That's why he had him fall, he had him hung upside-down, and he had > his mouth washed with soap. He was trying to make people *laugh* at > Snape, not pity him. Valky: Correct, and his motivation here was...... I already answered the "Because he exists" line so assuming that is out of the picture look at the canon we have remaining. Snape was in neck deep in the Dark Arts, He exhibited racially prejudice behaviour. Snape was an EXAMPLE. James and Sirius took the duty upon themselves in their stupid teenage pride, in their overwrought cause to MAKE PEOPLE LAUGH AT THE DARK ARTS AND RACIAL PREJUDICE!!! Del: > Snape, on the other hand, was trying to win what he considered to be a classic wizard duel. The best and fastest way is to disable your > opponent, hence the physically harming curse. Valky: >From Behind? Still makes him less than noble in his intentions. Del: > > And I sure don't think that humiliating someone is *noble*. > Well I didn't really mean that *it* was noble. I am sure I said that *James* was already noble. The nobility is behind the action. He *was* an 'idiot'. With a belief in something noble and a noble heart and spirit. He didn't have to change that. Snape on the other hand.....? Valky Hoping sincerely that she hasn't gotten herself into another James v Snape slanging match. I just want to debate the points really.... 8| From eloiseherisson at aol.com Sat Jul 10 16:30:37 2004 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloise_herisson) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:30:37 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle - Riddle murders In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105484 "dawnflight1984" wrote: > > I wonder if it really matters whether Tom was still a student or has > > already graduated. One thing was for sure, he wasn't an underaged > > wizard at that time, meaning he's probably at least 17 then and he > > murdered them before he was Voldemort. Right? Wanda: > The underage magic thing had occurred to me, too - they were killed in > the summer, so wouldn't 3 AKs by an underaged wizard outside of school > have been noticed by the MoM? I believe that Tom murdered his family in the summer *after* he'd left school. This is certainly the timeline supported by the Lexicon. http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/voldemort.html Tom wouldn't have been underage, and it's highly unlikely that his family's home would have been monitored by the MOM if there was no record of anyone magical living there. We know from Dumbledore's words in the Pensieve chapter of GoF that the Ministry were not interested in Frank Bryce's disappearance, because he was a Muggle. I imagine they would have the same lack of interest in the deaths of these three Muggles. In fact the lack of interest in Frank's disappearance *at the same location* rather reinforces that speculation, even if in retrospect. One certainly might assume that he murdered his family before he disappeared, that the disappearance was in fact partly (although only partly) a result of his having committed the murders. More accurately, perhaps the murders might be seen as a rite of passage. We do know that he still had the appearance of a teenaged boy when the murders were committed, so he can't have embarked too far on the appearance-changing transformations that he underent during his disappearance. ~Eloise From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 16:31:58 2004 From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (fauntine_80) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:31:58 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's possessions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105485 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gelite67" wrote: Does this not suggest that Lucius is VERY close to > Voldemort? I think it lends support to the theory that had Ginny > died, Voldemort himself, not Tom Riddle, would have been made > stronger. I don't see how Lucius would have gotten the diary from > Tom and I can't see why Lucius would be motivated to help Tom as > opposed to Voldemort. > > Angie I had wondered that too. If Tom Riddle had grown stronger through the diary, would he be LV or a young TR? As for Lucius being close to LV, He obviously was in his inner circle. I was also surprised at how easily LV forgave Lucius at the circle graveyard meeting (GoF). This indicated to me, at least, that Lucius was close enough to LV that LV overlooked his shortcommings. I also think that Lucius is one of the smartest out of the DE's, and LV knows this and therefore trusts him with certain stuff. This is all a huge guess on my part, though. ~Mo From amycrn4230 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 16:32:58 2004 From: amycrn4230 at yahoo.com (amycrn4230) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:32:58 -0000 Subject: Thestrals and Quirrels Death In-Reply-To: <20040710005014.55398.qmail@web13526.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105486 Ms Mo Me wrote: > Harry can see the thestrals after Cedrics death. It > has been debated before about seeing his parent's > death, but not having full knowledge as a baby. > > Well, didn't Harry see Professor Quirrel die in PS/SS? > So, Shouldn't he be able to see Thestrals by book 2? > > just a question. > > ~Mo JKR actually answers this herself on her website...she says Harry didn't actually see Quirrel die because he was already unconscious by that time. Amy From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 16:37:44 2004 From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (fauntine_80) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:37:44 -0000 Subject: Snape hearing Malfoy's name in the Hospital (GoF) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105487 I was rereading GoF and noticed that in the hospital scene Harry starts shouting names out at Fudge at who was at the graveyard. The first name he mentions is Lucius Malfoy and Snape looks quickly at Harry, and then quickly looks away. I found this to be a clue, but as to what, I am uncertain. My theory is, as of last night, but it could change, that Snape trusted Malfoy, which is why he likes his son, and Snape was actually shocked to hear that bit of information. It could also be that Snape just didn't want Harry blabbing names when he knew the kind of trouble it could cause. Anybody else have any theories? ~Mo From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Jul 10 16:50:22 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:50:22 -0000 Subject: FILK: Evans Fans Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105488 Evans Fans A filk by Pippin To the tune of The Beatle's Nowhere Man ENTER Jo, wearing a false goatee, accompanied by armed guards and suitcases Listen all you Evans fans Sitting out in cyberland You've made all your Evans plans for nobody Doesn't have a destiny Hasn't got a pedigree Isn't he a bit like you and me Common name, I promise, Just like Brown or Thomas Just a lad who needed a name I thought would be bland Load the kids into the van Soon we'll be Bolivian Evans fans can you forgive it all Neither herring nor a clue Maybe I'll head for Peru Sorry Evans fans, he's just a nobody (3x) From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 16:51:23 2004 From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (fauntine_80) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:51:23 -0000 Subject: Why do we always gang up on Sirius? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105489 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Melanie Holmes" wrote: > Val: > > Why is everyone so against Sirius? > > > > SSSusan: > > I don't think "everyone" *is* against Sirius or portraying him as a > > bad guy most of the time at all. > > Melbaluna here....concerning our frustration with Sirius: Maybe we're > just mad at him because he died. I mean, he was kind of arrogantly > taunting his opponent (and laughing, kind of like he thought it was a > game). Maybe we just wanted him to be RESPONSIBLE and not blow it for > > Melbaluna Mo Now, I agree with Melbaluna. Let's face it. We all feel bad for HP. He has gone through enough hardship and we want things to go right for him for a change. Sirius was good for Harry. He was an adult figure that Harry could be close to, as is Lupin. But, Sirius was one thing more - his Godfather. Sirius did act irresponsible at times. But, in all actuallity, the only people who consistantly act responsible are Dumbledor, Mad Eye, and McGonnagal. ...And, Lupin, Mr. Weasly, and Tonks, up to a point. I don't think anyone wanted Sirius to die. Even JKR didn't want it to happen. We are looking at it from an emotional perspective - if Sirius had just done______, or had been a little more______ he wouldn't have died and Harry would be happier, etc. I think some people blame Sirius because they need someone to blame. When, really, we all know who is to blame. And that is LV and the DEs. ~Mo From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Sat Jul 10 16:53:55 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:53:55 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle - Riddle murders In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105490 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eloise_herisson" wrote: > I believe that Tom murdered his family in the summer *after* he'd > left school. This is certainly the timeline supported by the Lexicon. > > http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/voldemort.html > > Tom wouldn't have been underage, and it's highly unlikely that his > family's home would have been monitored by the MOM if there was no > record of anyone magical living there. We know from Dumbledore's > words in the Pensieve chapter of GoF that the Ministry were not > interested in Frank Bryce's disappearance, because he was a Muggle. I > imagine they would have the same lack of interest in the deaths of > these three Muggles. In fact the lack of interest in Frank's > disappearance *at the same location* rather reinforces that > speculation, even if in retrospect. Well, there were 50 years between the two incidents; it would take quite an "institutional memory" to be able to connect them. I get the impression that Dumbledore remembered them because he was making it his business to know everything connected with Tom Riddle. Also, the 3 Riddles were killed before there was any Voldemort, or any indication of trouble to come. If the Ministry didn't pick up on any illicit spells being cast, they probably didn't even know that there was a wizard involved at all. > > One certainly might assume that he murdered his family before he > disappeared, that the disappearance was in fact partly (although only > partly) a result of his having committed the murders. More > accurately, perhaps the murders might be seen as a rite of passage. That sounds quite plausible, and the sort of thing Voldemort would do - inaugurate his new life by killing off the old. > > We do know that he still had the appearance of a teenaged boy when > the murders were committed, so he can't have embarked too far on the > appearance-changing transformations that he underent during his > disappearance. > If it was Tom that Frank saw, that is. I still think it might have been a time-travelling Harry. By the way, whatever happened to Frank's body? Maybe Nagini ate him. Wanda From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 17:21:48 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 17:21:48 -0000 Subject: Snape hearing Malfoy's name in the Hospital (GoF) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105491 > ~Mo wrote: > I was rereading GoF and noticed that in the hospital scene Harry > starts shouting names out at Fudge at who was at the graveyard. > The first name he mentions is Lucius Malfoy and Snape looks quickly > at Harry, and then quickly looks away. > > I found this to be a clue, but as to what, I am uncertain. > > My theory is, as of last night, but it could change, that Snape > trusted Malfoy, which is why he likes his son, and Snape was actually > shocked to hear that bit of information. > > It could also be that Snape just didn't want Harry blabbing names > when he knew the kind of trouble it could cause. > > Anybody else have any theories? > Neri: Sure. I've recently discussed this very clue at some length with Kneasy, as part of my last Snape theory. See #105279. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/105279 From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat Jul 10 17:30:18 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 17:30:18 -0000 Subject: JKR in Edinburgh Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105492 Not sure if this would receive Admin's total approval, but: Info on JKR's site, posted today. She doing readings, answering questions at the Edinburgh Book Festival next month. The audience will be small and tickets will be allocated by ballot. So if you're feeling lucky.... Kneasy From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat Jul 10 17:57:50 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 17:57:50 -0000 Subject: Goyle and Babyhead wasRe: Draco Malfoy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105493 Carol wrote: > You mentioned Goyle Sr. in the part of your post that I snipped. It's > true that he wasn't named by Lucius Malfoy in what amounts to a roll > call of the DEs present in the MoM, but he could be the baby-headed > Death Eater, who was out of the picture at that point if I recall > correctly. Since the other DEs were rounded up and placed under an > anti-apparating spell, the baby-head and the injured Nott were > probably also caught and placed in St. Mungo's. Whether they were > cured and sent to Azkaban or are still in the hospital is anybody's > guess. But Gregory Goyle's behavior at the end of GoF suggests that > his father shared the fate of Crabbe Sr. and Lucius Malfoy, meaning > that Goyle Sr. is probably in Azkaban with his DE friends. Only > Bellatrix and Voldemort escaped, as far as we know. > Potioncat: Actually Carol, someone did actually come up with canon for naming all 12 DEs at the DoM and Goyle was not one. I would tell you where to look, but I'm horrible at that. I do know it was one a thread called, Goyle was not at the MoM (or DoM) I was really surprised because I was certain we did not have all 12 names. I had to eat crow as I was arguing pretty strongly that we didn't have all 12 names! :-) Now, although I'm starting to lose hope about Agnes being important (Was is you who coined Mark Evansitis?) But I have to wonder if Baby-head will be in the same ward as Gilderoy, Agnes and the Longbottoms. I know most of us would put him in a secure ward, but one nevers knows with JKR. Potioncat From oppen at mycns.net Sat Jul 10 18:00:00 2004 From: oppen at mycns.net (ericoppen) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:00:00 -0000 Subject: My take on the Half-blood Prince Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105494 One thing that I haven't seen (pardon me if this has come up; my e- mail is slightly on-the-fritz, so I'm a bit behind on this group) is the possibility that the Half-Blood Prince might be Viktor Krum. Krum's last name itself provides a clue---it is the name of the Khan whose Turkic people founded the Bulgarian nation. They were absorbed by their Slavic-speaking subjects, but retained the name and continued to identify in many ways with the original, non-Slavic Bulgars. AFAIK modern Bulgarian names mostly sound pretty Slavic, and I don't think I've ever heard of a modern Bulgarian named "Krum" (however, I am not an expert on this, nor do I play one on TV, so I'm open to correction) and we know that Herself doesn't pick names at random. Hence, calling a Bulgarian character by the name of a half-legendary prince, founder of his nation, that is not used in contemporary Bulgaria ought to be a big fat Clue. We also know nothing about Viktor Krum's ancestry---it would be a hoot if he _was_ descended from Bulgarian royalty somehow, wouldn't it? For that matter, we don't know that non-British wizards worry too much about blood purity---for all we know, they might take the position that "if you can cast spells/do magic, you're a wizard; if not, you're a (you should pardon the expression) _Muggle!_" Wouldn't it be a hoot and a half if Draco got his wish to transfer to Durmstrang and found out that everybody there thought his obsession with wizard-blood purity was a bit stupid? "You're so proud of your ancestors, Malfoy, you remind me of a potato---the best parts are underground!" From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sat Jul 10 18:32:26 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:32:26 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle in CoS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105495 Sonya wrote: > > What did Mr. Malfoy hope to gain from passing on the Diary? If > > he was hoping to bring Tom back so he could become LV again (and > > the killings) would that make Mr. Malfoy a 'good' DE? Brigitte: > I am not sure that Malfoy had any idea that the book mighy bring > back LV/TR at all. He knows that the last time the chamber was > opened the school was almost closed. I think that LM just wanted > to get DD out of the school. LM might then hope to get someone > else appointed as headmaster (maybe even himself) that would carry > on the Slytherin persuasion of not teaching those with Muggle > blood. SSSusan: I think Brigitte is *exactly* right. I think Lucius simply wanted to wreak havoc on Hogwarts--well, on the MUGGLE-borns at Hogwarts-- and get DD in trouble. If Voldy *knew* what Lucius had been up to, don't you think he would have held Lucius up in the graveyard at an example of a DEVOTED FOLLOWER? Yet, he didn't. In fact, he chastised Lucius a bit. And if Malfoy had been doing it FOR Voldy, I think Lucius would have protested, "But, look what I tried to do for you, Master." The fact that Malfoy DIDN'T protest makes me think he did this purely on his own, for his own play for power. Siriusly Snapey Susan From siskiou at vcem.com Sat Jul 10 18:35:57 2004 From: siskiou at vcem.com (Susanne) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 11:35:57 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: <20040710151551.91221.qmail@web25301.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <20040710151551.91221.qmail@web25301.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <94310653.20040710113557@vcem.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105496 Hi, Saturday, July 10, 2004, 8:15:51 AM, udder_pen_dragon wrote: > If ever a girl had said to me that I was the most > insensitive prat she had ever had the misfortune to meet > and that I > had the emotional range of a teaspoon, inside two > minutes; I would have no illusions as to how much she > liked me. Well, I'm not so sure ;) Miscommunication is a very common thing, especially between males and females. Most, or many men, prefer the straight forward type of communication, while many women don't, and expect others to understand what they are getting at by reading between the lines, tone of voice, and such. I've talked to guys from school many years later, who never realized that a girl liked them, even though the girl thought she was making it obvious. And Hermione has a pretty abrasive personality on top of it. I also agree, with whoever said that Hermione isn't comfortable with her feelings for Ron, and is trying to talk herself out of them, in a way. And is getting annoyed with Ron's cluelessness... -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at vcem.com From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sat Jul 10 18:41:20 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:41:20 -0000 Subject: HP and the Half Blood Git In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105497 caesian wrote: > And while I'm at it, Snape (a fictional character, I know) has > been irritating me. Again. I'm OK with the subtlety of Albus > Dumbledore allowing Snape to terrorize a generation of students - > to their detriment - to no other purpose than the possible defeat > of Voldemort. I'm OK with Snape being a jerk. So long as he > stays on his page, I love it. > > On the other hand, those who ascribe secret good intentions to the > character of Snape make my brain hurt and my blood insulin soar > worse than a quickly consumed pint of Hagendaaz (strawberry). > He's a mean evil jerk for the good of Harry and Neville? No. And > what makes my angst worse is that people who post these ideas are > smart and cool. I read and Respect their posts (the analogy is to > Hagendaaz strawberry, after all). > > Some might say that a central message in the Septology is that the > world is not divided into Good People and Death Eaters. I would > agree. But in the case of Snape, I'll guide that point to it's > logical conclusion - that the world is not divided into Death > Eaters and people who aren't Evil Gits. Snape might not be a > Death Eater. He might be helping Dumbledore. He might even die a > heroic death in glorious sacrifice for Harry, or some such. But > he Is evil. Not irredeemable (if Tom Riddle can experience > forgiveness, who can't?). But alot worse than "not a nice guy". > He's a bad guy. He might not be a death eater, but that doesn't > make him good. SSSusan: In reading this, I was, of course, asking myself whether I'm one of those posters who've been annoying you w/ my remarks about Snape. I've called myself a Snape-aholic but NOT a Snape-apologist...and I'm quite willing to be a Snape-basher on occasion...so I simply don't know. But I *would* ask you how you know what the "logical conclusion" to draw is? Isn't that a big part of what Snape-aholics have been saying? That there is so much which is unanswered about our former- DE-turned-potions-master? Without some answers, how do we *know* that he is evil? Cruel, sadistic (JKR's word), abusive (JKR's term), sarcastic--all that is clearly available in canon or in JKR interviews. But "evil"? That seems an awfully strong & certain conclusion to draw at this point. Could you say more? Siriusly Snapey Susan From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sat Jul 10 18:56:12 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:56:12 -0000 Subject: The Mirror and the Heart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105498 SSSusan, previously: > So if DD did have an inkling that Voldy was close by somewhere, > does that support my theory at all, that the whole thing was set > up as a test for Harry? That that's why DD didn't DO more about > this information? I mean, how can DD know so MUCH sometimes and > then NOT know things like this? That frustrates me as a reader! Neri responded: > It certainly frustrates me. > > As I wrote here in the past, I don't buy omniscient!DD, nor puppet- > master!DD. I think DD doesn't know much (though still more than > any other character) so he has to operate mainly by hunches. Most > of the times he gets it right, but he can't be right all the time. SSSusan again: I think you must be right. If DD were omniscient, he'd know SO much more (heck, he'd have known about Sirius & Peter in PoA)... and I don't think he knows THAT much more than he's letting on. I've never believed fully in Puppetmaster!DD either, though I do believe he has **a Plan** and that he keeps a portion of it quite close to the chest. So maybe he's Intuitive!DD?? Neri: > How much had DD planned the Harry-finding-the-Stone-in-the-Mirror > scenario from the outset? I don't know. There are certainly some > inconsistencies in DD's official explanation of how it worked. But > there are also inconsistencies in the pensieve or the time travel > stories. We shouldn't dig TOO deep into them. This is after all a > story and not RL. The general meaning of the Mirror setup, if not > the exact details, is clear from DD's explanation: only someone > with a sincere, unselfish intention could have found the Stone. Jen: > I always liked this scene, where Dumbledore explains why Harry > was able to get the stone. In typical Dumbledore fashion, he made > his contribution to the protection very simple, relying on the > innate goodness of most people. He simply made it impossible for > Voldemort or anyone else with evil intentions to get the stone, > leaving room for people with good intentions. Good vs. Evil intent > is why Quirrell couldn't get the stone. No, he's not going to > personally use the stone himself, but he *is* going to give the > stone to someone with sinister plans. > I think the mirror can make this distinction, if it is capable of > looking into a person's heart and discovering their true desires. SSSusan: I like this scene, too, and wondered how GOOD it must've made Harry feel inside when he realized what a compliment DD was paying him, really. Neri: > So I don't think DD set this as a test for Harry. It looks very > much like a test because it IS indeed a test. Only it is a test > (or rather, a trial) that was set for Harry by JKR. There IS > after all a puppet-master and an omniscient around here, but it is > JKR, not DD. SSSusan: A good point to make about confusing JKR, the ultimate puppet- master, with DD. I guess for me I'd have to consider it, well, not quite a FLAW in the plot, but a weakness in the plot, then, if this WASN'T a test set up by DD. Why? Because the tasks were too easy! Three first-year students?-granted, each quite talented in his/her own way, but still FIRST-YEARS--two of which who're coming into the WW for the first time, are able to work their way through *seven* "security devices"? I think Harry's "special", Hermione's brilliant, and Ron's a good strategist, but they should NOT have been able to get through all seven! Thus, for me, I liked the idea that DD set it up so that the tasks were fairly reasonably do-able for Harry & crew. Again, just my story that I'm sticking to for now. Siriusly Snapey Susan From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sat Jul 10 19:24:47 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 19:24:47 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes (or Snape-aholics and Siriophiles) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105499 Kneasy: > It's an idea I've posted before - Harry sees the WW as a refuge > from an unfriendly existence. But in the WW Harry is one of the > all-time heroes and DD placed him with a Muggle family > deliberately, just so that he wouldn't be spoiled. But there's > still a danger of that happening. If Harry was greeted everywhere > as he was at the Leaky Cauldron, that danger would be significant. > Snape is a corrective. He is *deliberately* nasty - and it's with > DD's knowledge and approval. They're the best double act in the > WW. Snape is there to watch Harry, to protect Harry > and to teach him a few things about life - like how unfair it is. SSSusan: I kind of like this; it's sensible to me. Kneasy continued: > His attitude has credible roots to outsiders- Snape's history with > James. But Snape is much too intelligent to confuse Harry with > James; he probably doesn't like Harry much, but in the larger > scheme of things that's hardly significant. SSSusan: I'm curious how you would take DD's remark to Harry, then, near the end of OoP: ************************************ "Snape stopped giving me Occlumency lessons!" Harry snarled. "He threw me out of his office!" "I am aware of it," said DD heavily. "I have already said that it was a mistake for me not to teach you myself...." "Snape made it worse, my scar always hurt worse after lessons with him--... How do you know he wasn't trying to soften me up for Voldemort...." "I trust Severus Snape," said DD simply. "But I forgot--another old man's mistake--that some wounds run too deep for the healing. I thought Professor Snape could overcome his feelings about your father--I was wrong." [US, 833] ************************************ Is this speech of DD's part of the act, then? Or is there *something* going on w/ Snape besides a minor dislike of Harry and an act to maintain for preventing spoiled!Harry? DD said Snape was "too old & clever" to have allowed Sirius' "feeble taunts" to hurt him. How can he turn around a minute later in the conversation and say what he did about Snape's relationship with James? So IS Snape's hatred [or whatever word is appropriate] of James a part of Snape's treatment of Harry or not? Siriusly Snapey Susan From sam2sar at charter.net Sat Jul 10 19:28:23 2004 From: sam2sar at charter.net (sam2sar) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 19:28:23 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle in CoS In-Reply-To: <42.527d3d37.2e20d1bc@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105500 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Madydea at a... wrote: > Do you think memory Tom knew what had happened to LV since he made the > MemoryTom? > > I'm not sure he was aware of all the going on's. Do you suppose Mr. Malfoy > was able to write in the Diary and tell him what was going on? What did Mr. > Malfoy hope to gain from passing on the Diary? If he was hoping to bring Tom > back so he could become LV again (and the killings) would that make Mr. Malfoy a > 'good' DE? > > Sonya > > Your question made me think of something else. Would vapor mort have been able to possess Memory Toms body? It could have been a way to bring him back. All his powers in a young body. He might not have gone through the ritual in GoF to get a body. Sam From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sat Jul 10 19:38:18 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 19:38:18 -0000 Subject: Wands, Dumbledore and Sirius/James In-Reply-To: <20040710074846.16856.qmail@webmail6.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105501 Amey, previously: >>> And as for penseive, if it shows "a memory of that person's version of what happened.", it's pretty subjective, and the scene might even be different. <<< SSSusan: >> May I ask whom you're quoting here? Could you clarify for me, >> please? Amey replied: > Sorry I was quoting from the post I was replying to, and didn't > clarify further. What I meant was that, if the penseive is fully > subjective, how come Harry was afraid that if Snape would have > moved he couldn't watch his father? Does it have some effective > area? And if that is the case, how come Snape didn't hear what > Sirius and James said but Harry was able to hear it? It fits their > typical images only too well. Is it the truth or somebody's > version of truth? SSSusan: Thanks for clarifying. I didn't THINK there was canon for its being subjective. If it *were* subjective, then Harry's concern makes sense. That is, if it's SNAPE'S subjective memory and he [Snape] moves, Harry is afraid he'll have to "go with Snape." Turned out that WASN'T how the Pensieve operated, and Harry was able to roam. I take that as evidence for its objectivity. SSSusan: >>> I also don't see how James comes out as MORE arrogant and bullying than Sirius. In THIS scene, perhaps. Overall? No. Whatever the motivation for it, James stopped Snape; Sirius did not. Amey: > We have only one scene where we see James, he is not there in any > other scene, except in memories (and I don't mean of Penseive > kind). So, there is no basis for comparing Sirius and James except > 2 occurances. In one of them, James is worse bully, in other he is > Saviour. But why is he saviour? I doubt he would do that for > Snape. What he did was to save Sirius and Remus from trouble. And > also, didn't Snape tell Harry that what James did was to save > *himself* from trouble? SSSusan: Consider the SOURCE of that remark!:-) How would Snape know James' motivation? I guess I would argue that, while we have only two *scenes* we have all KINDS of recollections & rememberances of James throughout canon. Testimony, if you will. Hagrid, DD, Snape, Lupin, Sirius, they all have things to say about James and/or Lily. I think, with qualification, those things can be brought in for comparison's sake. We only EVER see what JKR allows us to see, yet we make judgments all the time of people's behaviors & character. Siriusly Snapey Susan From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Sat Jul 10 19:47:24 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 19:47:24 -0000 Subject: "He who has left me for ever" [was Re: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes) (Long)] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105502 >>> Pippin wrote: > The Snape that Voldemort knew of old would have hated Harry > for James's sake and would not have been capable of > concealing it. Snape is thus the last person Voldemort would > think could be a spy--for *either* side [and snipping rest of also relevant points for length sake] Bren now: Hmm. I like how you argued your side, but I'm more inclined to believe that either side believes Snape is their `espionage weapon' for the other. Just the mere fact that Snape has been working under DD for so long will be enough to raise a red flag in Voldemort's mind, IMO. Also if anyone tipped off Voldemort that Snape is always side by side with DD, almost like DD's right-hand man, then good old Voldy won't be happy. He should know, of all people, just how skilled Legilimens DD is (from all the staring behind moon spectacles Tom Riddle had received in Hogwarts) -- and if VM thought DD failed to see Snape's DE memories then it seems more plausible that Snape had struck a deal with DD. However, I do happen to think that Snape went to "rejoin" the good side at his will, not on the mission for Death Eaters. Perhaps Snape sent VM a false image, the one containing the message of `Hmm, I wonder what DD's movies will be. How do we find out ' or something along the line. VM goes `that's a good idea, SSSnivellus' (sorry, couldn't resist) and sent him to spy on DD, when in fact Snape was the one initiating the whole thing with every intention of returning to the good side. Although this doesn't explain why Snape failed to inform Harry during their Occulmency lessons that VM could use the connection to send Harry false imageries... >>> Pippin continues: > Voldemort believed at the end of GoF that Snape had left him for > ever, but Snape's return would of course prove that he hadn't. No > doubt Voldemort thinks, and JKR has hinted that Dumbledore is > worried about this too, that the lure of the Dark Arts was simply > too strong in the end for Snape to resist. <<< Bren now: I thought the one "who has left me for ever" was Cornelius Fudge. Any idea WHY his last name is so delicious but his character isn't? I read this in the North Tower Column in Mugglenet.com and it was very convincing, to me at least. The links to the related essays are: "Uncovering Severus Snape: Patterns and Subtle Repetition" "The Missing Death Eater" These essays are amazing and I highly recommend them! Another point I wanted to make is this: I have seen HP fans deciding which character is a DE and who's not, mostly based on the Graveyard Scene in GoF. This is definitely a great incident to categorize characters that way, if not the best. I highly doubt that Voldemort was trying to fool his `true family' there, I think *what he says* can be taken at face value. I emphasize *what he says* because I don't think he necessarily revealed EVERYTHING there. Now, I am not too certain just WHO is marked as Death Eater and who is not but I did some counting from the books just to amuse myself. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Death Eaters from Graveyard: 16+ -- Wormtail, Avery, Lucius, Lestranges (2), "the next man", Macnair, Crabbe, Goyle, Nott, `6 missing lads VM talks about' -- "Some of the Death Easters he passed in silence, but he paused before others, and spoke to them" (GoF, 564-565. UK) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 2. The Order of Phoenix: 22+ -- Moody, Dumbledore, Delalus Diggle, Marlene McKinnon, Frank & Alice Longbottom, Emmeline Vance, Remus Lupin, Benjy Fenwick, Edgar Bones, Sturgis Podmore, Caradoc Dearborn, Hagrid, Elphias Doge, Gideon & Fabian Prewett, Aberforth, Dorcas Meadowes, Sirius, James, Lily, Peter -- But Lupin says later on, when comforting Molly after her encounter with Boggarts, "Last time we were outnumbered twenty to one by Death Eaters and they were picking us off one by one " (OoP, 161. UK) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Following this logic, even if we assume the Order only had 22 members in it, this leads to the conclusion that there were more than 200 Death Eaters working with Voldemort. But of course assuming there were more Order members and Moody stopped talking about them after James appeared on the picture -- this only means there were that many more DE's strutting around, eating, well, deaths. One may argue that it is only Lupin's words -- but I am inclined to take his words at face value here (not necessarily every word since ESE!Lupin theory has whipped me). I mean why wouldn't he? He is very smart, wouldn't have too much of hard time estimating the situation and all, and I don't see how he would endanger his ESE! position from divulging this common knowledge to Molly. My point is (finally, you say! hehe) we just don't know how many silent former Death Eaters there are in WW. It is supported by my interpretation of canon, that there are bound to be many more Death Eaters than we expect, so brace yourself for more true-color- revealing in the next books. I personally don't believe there are only "6 missing Death Eaters", there will be a lot more and practically anyone we know about can turn out to be one. Sure, in the Riddle Graveyard the text mentions some that VM just passed by, but do you really think all 200 of them were present there? I vaguely remember reading that the DE Circle had about 30 wizards, though not too sure of it. I don't think VM was lying there saying he is missing 6 of his servants, I rather believe he lost track or he is quite a bit not there. After all, he had just acquired a body that he lived without for 13 years. " `How many will be brave enough to return when they feel it?' he whispered, his gleaming `And how many will be foolish enough to stay away?'" (GoF, Graveyard Scene) Brenda From leperockon at aol.com Sat Jul 10 20:04:40 2004 From: leperockon at aol.com (taylorlynzie) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:04:40 -0000 Subject: My take on the Half-blood Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105503 I had, obviously, considered Victor Krum for the role of the HBP before I read this post, however... your post made me consider it a lot more. I think that Krum could quite possibly be the HBP... I truely wonder if the HBP is gonna be a more main character like Victor Krum or a secondary type of character that we don't think about that much like Lavender Brown or Dean Thomas or whatever. You know? <33 tay From HPGroup at colinogilvie.co.uk Sat Jul 10 15:50:50 2004 From: HPGroup at colinogilvie.co.uk (Colin O) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:50:50 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hagrid's wand In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40F0105A.3070009@colinogilvie.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 105504 meltowne wrote: >She may have said that in an interview, but when HAgrid went to look >for the Giants, he said he would be watched because he wasn't allowed >to use magic - which suggests that he was not in fact authorized to >perform magic, even though his name was cleared. Which do we take as >canon? He (Hagrid) says in PS "I'm -- er -- not supposed ter do magic, strictly speakin'" so I would argue that it is possible both are Canon. Reasoning: Dumbledore allows him to stay on at the school as "Keeper of Keys at Hogwarts" so he is allowed to do magic as part of his job, as long as he is on Hogwarts grounds. When he was off looking for the Giants for Dumbledore, he wasn't on Hogwarts grounds so therefor wasn't allowed to use magic, or he'd be caught by the MoM, who, from memory, don't generally interfere with Hogwarts business until Umbrdige in OOTP. -- Regards, Colin From hallisallimalli at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 17:05:06 2004 From: hallisallimalli at yahoo.com (halli) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 17:05:06 -0000 Subject: The HBP (or more likely How to Discredit all my future theories!!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105505 -griffyr29: > We know that V's mother died giving birth to him, but we know > little else about her other than that she was a witch. Perhaps > she had children in a previous marriage. That would make those > children "half-blood" (in the more Muggle sense) relatives of V. > > I'm also thinking that Snape would fit in nicely as a descendant. halli: Well, the only problem with this idea is that if VM had any half- siblings on his mothers side, they would also be desendants of Slytherin, as that was on his mother's side. DD said that VM was the last remaining desendant so that wouldn't work. Unless DD doesn't know about them, but you would think he would look into something that important. From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sat Jul 10 17:49:09 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 13:49:09 -0400 Subject: PoA Question Message-ID: <000c01c466a6$45173690$14c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 105506 I hope the list-elves will indulge me here for a moment. I have a question about the PoA movie but only as it relates to the books and what we have been talking about the last few days about foreshadowing. Several people here think that the PoA movie, particularly some 'added' scenes or incidents that were not in the book, foreshadow what is going to happen in books 6 & 7. If that is the case, can we also assume that the things that were left out, things that we think - for one reason or another - are important, are not as important as we thought? I thought Crookshanks' role was severely reduced in PoA movie and I felt he had a stronger role in that book, very imporant role what we didn't really get to see in the movie, and I also think old Crookshanks is going to have another role to play, yet. Also, in the book, we learned a lot of, what I thought, was relevant and important info during the Shrieking Shack chapters that never made it to the movie. Was this stuff not important to 'the rest of the story?' Another thing I've always thought was very important, is Snape's not very subtle inference to Fudge, that Harry isn't quite the child most of the WW believes him to be. I thought he planted just a niggling seed of doubt about Harry in Fudge's mind, that compounded the following year with Rita Skeeter's blather in the DP about Harry, brought Fudge, at least in part, to his 'parting of the ways' with DD. He couldn't believe Harry, so obviously if DD believed Harry, DD is as addled as HP is. I have always thought it was Snape's first drop of doubt there that started the ball rolling. Whether that particular bit of info is important or not, I thought losing the whole scene from the book to the movie quite startling. So, do you think the stuff that has been left out, important things, mean they are not as important after all? Cathy - who has way too much time on her hands, obviously, if she sits and thinks about this stuff all day! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From harp66 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 18:14:52 2004 From: harp66 at yahoo.com (harp66) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:14:52 -0000 Subject: Emotional Intimacy in the HP stories (not necessarily romantic) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105507 I'd like to address a related issue of intimacy, how it is depicted in these stories. Is the relationship between Harry and Ron a good model of teenage male friendship? In GoF we learn that Ron is the person who means most to Harry. Is that reciprocated? And why don't they discuss girls? And Hermione. What are community members' thoughts on the way her friendship with Ron/Harry is depicted in terms of sharing herself with them emotionally? Shared adventures aside, how deep is their relationship? And why isn't she shown to have female intimates? Is this a flaw in the stories? "harp66" From meriaugust at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 20:15:35 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:15:35 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105508 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: snip > In the constant to-ing and fro-ing about Snape and Sirius which seems > to be one of the dividing lines between the fans, I think there's a basic > mis-understanding of where some people are coming from. I think that > I can claim credit for first using the identifying labels "Siriophiles" and > "Snape-aholics" that highlights the difference. > > Siriophiles *like* Sirius; they think he's lovely, sexy, maltreated and for > all his faults basically cuddly. > > Snape-aholics find ole Sevvy fascinating, they can't get enough of him, > but they're under no illusions - he is a deeply unpleasant character. > Most of them would/will probably be disappointed if he ever reforms. It's > not often that you find a well written, credible villain in fiction these days > and when one does turn up, it's lip-smacking time. > > When the Anti-Snape Alliance flail away, castigating him for the way he > treats Harry and Neville, nurses his grudges against James and Sirius, > they're really missing the point. We know all that. It's not news - it's canon. > For Snape-aholics the nub of the question is - why? What is the back-story, > what are Snape's motivations? snip Oh, I don't know. I'd really like to know what in the high heck Snape's motivations are, and I'm no Snape-aholic (I personally think that any grown adult who verbally abuses children, and I'm not just talking Harry and Neville, he does it to Hermione, too, is pretty much a part of the lowest of the low). I think that Snape is a very interesting character in a Darth Vaderish sort of way, and the list of questions I want answered about him is a mile long, but I think Sirius is pretty fascinating, too. Like, for instance, why did he turn out so different from his family? How did he and James become such fast friends? What was him motivation in going to the DoM? Why would anybody suspect him turning the Potter's to LV? What kind of inner strength did he have that helped him survive Azkaban for twelve years? Etc., etc., etc. I am, admittedly, one of those nutty girls who had (well, still has) a massive crush on Sirius. But that doesn't preclude me from finding him an interesting character, any more than my finding Snape to be a repulsive human being precludes me to finding his interesting as well. Meri - who traded her film stills of Snape from the PoA movie with a friend for scenes of the Knight Bus, just cause she couldn't stand the thought of pictures of Snape in her room... From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Jul 10 20:18:38 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:18:38 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes (or Snape-aholics and Siriophiles) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105509 > > SSSusan: > I'm curious how you would take DD's remark to Harry, then, near the > end of OoP: > ************************************ > "Snape stopped giving me Occlumency lessons!" Harry snarled. "He threw me out of his office!" > > "I am aware of it," said DD heavily. "I have already said that it > was a mistake for me not to teach you myself...." > > "Snape made it worse, my scar always hurt worse after lessons with him--... How do you know he wasn't trying to soften me up for Voldemort...." > > "I trust Severus Snape," said DD simply. "But I forgot--another old man's mistake--that some wounds run too deep for the healing. I thought Professor Snape could overcome his feelings about your father--I was wrong." [US, 833] > ************************************ > > Is this speech of DD's part of the act, then? Or is there > *something* going on w/ Snape besides a minor dislike of Harry and an act to maintain for preventing spoiled!Harry? DD said Snape was "too old & clever" to have allowed Sirius' "feeble taunts" to hurt him. How can he turn around a minute later in the conversation and say what he did about Snape's relationship with James? > > So IS Snape's hatred [or whatever word is appropriate] of James a part of Snape's treatment of Harry or not? > That's a typo, right? Or possibly a Freudian slip In any case it was Sirius that Dumbledore said was too old and clever to be hurt by Snape's feeble taunts. Which makes sense, I think. Sirius, AFAWK, has never had any real doubts about his courage, so why would Snape's taunts get to him? He could have ignored them if he chose to--but he was bored and spoiling for a fight. On the other hand, when Snape threw Harry out of the office, he had just been forced to actually relive his memory of how James had treated him. And fifteen year old Snape was obviously not too old or too clever to let James's taunting, which I wouldn't call feeble, get to him. I guess I'm in the middle between SSSusan and Kneasy on this--I think that Dumbledore does see advantages for Harry in letting Snape be his nasty self, and that he co-operates far more closely with Snape than Harry realizes. On the other hand, I think Snape has a genuine loathing of Harry, based on Harry's looks and on Snape's honest belief that fruit doesn't fall far from the tree. Dumbledore wishes this weren't so, but has no power, as he says, to make men see the truth. Perhaps both Snape and Dumbledore feel that since Harry is going to benefit unfairly from the good things people like Hagrid and Sirius remember about his parents, it's corrective that he suffer for the bad as well. Note that Dumbledore doesn't say that he hoped Snape would overcome the feeling that Harry was like his father--rather he hoped it was Snape's feelings about James that could be overcome. Pippin From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 20:28:52 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:28:52 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: <20040710151551.91221.qmail@web25301.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105510 UdderPD wrote : > Let me start by saying that I am an 'obselete old dingbat' (63 year > old male). > > If ever a girl had said to me that I was the most insensitive prat > she had ever had the misfortune to meet and that I had the emotional > range of a teaspoon, inside two minutes; I would have no illusions as > to how much she liked me. Del replies : Lol ! Then I'm afraid you might have missed an opportunity :-) You see, sometimes, when a girl is attracted to someone but thinks that person is not somehow good enough for her, she might resort to insulting that person in order to force him to improve, and thus become good enough for her. It's a very classic feminine tool. Even women in a steady relationship often continue to use it. Look around you : you'll see many wives and girlfriends criticising their partners *in the hope that it will encourage them to improve* and thus become even more lovable. I read it somewhere called the Pygmalion Syndrome : trying to turn our loved ones into our dream people. I'm not saying that's necessarily what Hermione is doing, but I wouldn't rule it out. She might be interested in Ron, but might feel that his lack of sensitivity is a flaw that needs correction. So her cutting remarks might just be encouragements for him to develop his emotional range. UdderPD wrote : > Ron and Hermione fight because they are almost total opposites, > without Harry as the catalyst I doubt they would ever talk to each > other socialy. Del replies : So what ? Many couples are like that and still work out very well. My husband and his father are very much alike in temperament, but my mother-in-law and myself couldn't be more different. And still we are all happily married. UdderPD wrote : > Can you really imagine Hermione staying home to cook for Ron then > sitting meekly listening while he babbled on about Quidditch? I am > digressing sorry. Del replies : First, we never know how people are going to evolve. I was Hermione back when I was 15. Now at age 30, I'm working happily on being Molly. Second, we don't know that this is what *Ron* would like anyway. He admires Hermione's intelligence, that's part of his attraction to her. So I doubt he'd want her to become someone he couldn't admire that way anymore. UdderPD wrote : > Hermione said "Of course your not," ( with reference to Harry's > kissing ability) without even thinking and as soon as Ron says "How > do you know?" very sharply. She realises what she has given away and > tries to cover up by talking about Cho and telling Ron exactly where > he stands. Del replies : But *what* has she given away exactly ?? The way I read it, she's just baffled at 2 things : 1. that the boys should conclude so fast that Cho was crying because Harry was a bad kisser, when Cho cries all the time anyway, 2. that the boys could believe that anyone could be such a bad kisser that they would make their partner cry ! I mean, *I* didn't know about Cho crying all over the place, but I was completely baffled that *anyone* could think such an absurd thing ! My reaction was exactly the same as Hermione's : of course you're not a bad kisser, because nobody is, at least not to that extent. UdderPD wrote : > Harry has too much on his mind to worry about romance; within an hour > of all this he is in the Headmasters office talking about the snake > biting Arthur W. Del replies : Romance blossoms even in the harshest conditions : during wars, during natural catastrophes, in prison, and so on. I would never put it past anyone to fall in love, whatever their conditions. Del From averyhaze at hotmail.com Sat Jul 10 18:38:28 2004 From: averyhaze at hotmail.com (onnanokata) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:38:28 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle in CoS In-Reply-To: <42.527d3d37.2e20d1bc@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105511 Sonya wrote: Do you think memory Tom knew what had happened to LV since he made the MemoryTom? I'm not sure he was aware of all the going on's. Do you suppose Mr. Malfoy was able to write in the Diary and tell him what was going on? What did Mr.Malfoy hope to gain from passing on the Diary? If he was hoping to bring Tom back so he could become LV again (and the killings) would that make Mr. Malfoy a 'good' DE? Sonya, I have never thought about Malfoy's ability to communicate through the diary until now. That is an interesting idea, and it fits very well with the plot. But on to what Malfoy could gain by planting the diary My thought is that it would have been the perfect way to undermine the Muggle Protection Act that Author Wesley was pushing through the Ministry. What worse situation could have arisen for Author, than to have one of his children implicated in the deaths of Muggle Born witches and wizards? This would be a side benefit to Voldemort gaining more information about Harry as well as potentially gaining a new body. Dharma From BTParks51 at aol.com Sat Jul 10 19:55:47 2004 From: BTParks51 at aol.com (Brian Parks) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 19:55:47 -0000 Subject: Dudley as HBP??!! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105512 I don't know whether this possibility has been discussed but if Petunia does turn out to be a witch, could Dudley be the HBP developing his magic powers later in life than Harry had? This would make for highly dramatic scenes with the possibility of Dudley joining Harry at Hogwarts. (Or...what if Petunia is a squib and Vernon is a wizard but in denial? This might explain his extreme hositility to all things magical.) I know it has been questioned "Prince of what?". Perhaps Petunia once called Dudley "My little Prince" or some such sugary term of endearment. I have always had the feeling that there is more to the Dursley's than we have so far discovered - I have had this feeling since my first reading of book 1. There is such a clear and marked division between Harry's life with the Dursleys and his life with magical friends and colleagues that the only logical way for the books' plotline to go is to blur that distinction so that the two worlds collide. What do others feel? "BTParks51" From janedeau at mac.com Sat Jul 10 20:11:23 2004 From: janedeau at mac.com (Jane Deau) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 13:11:23 -0700 Subject: Tom Riddle in CoS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51047CF3-D2AD-11D8-9DB6-000D932805D4@mac.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105513 sam2sar wrote: > Do you think memory Tom knew what had happened to LV since he made > the MemoryTom? Well Tom tells Harry that Ginny had told him all about Harry. -Jane Deau From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 20:35:27 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:35:27 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's Magic -Official & UNofficial In-Reply-To: <40F0105A.3070009@colinogilvie.co.uk> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105514 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Colin O wrote: > meltowne wrote: > > >She may have said that in an interview, but when Hagrid went to > >look for the Giants, he said he would be watched because he wasn't > >allowed to use magic - ... Which do we take as canon? > Colin replies: > > He (Hagrid) says in PS "I'm -- er -- not supposed ter do magic, > strictly speakin'" so I would argue that it is possible both are > Canon. > > Reasoning: Dumbledore allows him to stay on at the school as "Keeper > of Keys at Hogwarts" so he is allowed to do magic as part of his > job, as long as he is on Hogwarts grounds. When he was off looking > for the Giants for Dumbledore, he wasn't on Hogwarts grounds so > therefor wasn't allowed to use magic, or he'd be caught by the MoM, > who, from memory, don't generally interfere with Hogwarts business > until Umbrdige in OOTP. > > -- > Regards, > > Colin Asian_lovr2: I think we need to go back to the original question that sparked this thread to re-enforce Colin's point. Post# 105334: "Did Hagrid get the OFFICIAL OK to practice magic ...?" Hagrid has always been allowed to perform magic UNofficially since the beginning of the series. Remember the boat that rowed itself? Remember the pumpkins the size of garden sheds? Remember the hedges that grew 20 feet in a month which Ludo Bagman knew Hagrid was helping along? It seems to be widespread knowledge that Hagrid isn't suppose to do magic, but it also seems widespread that people who know Hagrid conviniently look the other way. At the end of Chamber of Secrets it's clear to all involved that Hargid didn't have anything to do with the current CoS events and not with the events of 50 years ago. It's not that his name has been clear, it just that everyone now knows he didn't do it. Given this, people especially at or near the school are going to be even more lax about Hagrid's magic. Which explains why a Ministry official would have no problem with Hagrid assisting in accelerating the growth of the maze hedges. After GoF, the Ministry is looking for any excuse to create trouble for Dumbledore. Suddenly it's not as easy for people to look the other way. Suddenly the risk of performing UNofficial magic has become very high. So the key is Offical and UNofficial. For Hagrid to finally be OFFICIALLY free of the restriction, the Ministry must OFFICIALLY relieve him of that restriction. Which I believe will happen. Just a thought. Steve/asian_lovr2 From mbenkin at andrew.cmu.edu Sat Jul 10 20:16:20 2004 From: mbenkin at andrew.cmu.edu (vituperative404) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:16:20 -0000 Subject: HP and the Half Blood Git In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105515 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > SSSusan: > But I *would* ask you how you know what the "logical conclusion" to > draw is? Isn't that a big part of what Snape-aholics have been > saying? That there is so much which is unanswered about our former- > DE-turned-potions-master? Without some answers, how do we *know* > that he is evil? Cruel, sadistic (JKR's word), abusive (JKR's > term), sarcastic--all that is clearly available in canon or in JKR > interviews. But "evil"? That seems an awfully strong & certain > conclusion to draw at this point. Could you say more? Melanie: I agree with you that part of Snape's "allure" is the fact that he's such a mysterious guy. There's not enough evidence in the current canon to tell if he's "evil" NOW. On the other hand, it's very easy to reach the conclusion that Snape *was* evil back in his DE days. First of all, as far we know he joined the DEs of his own free will (his 'mudblood' snipe to Lily in the pensieve scene points to him believing the 'pureblood' party line). And while we could say he was "peer pressured" into it by his Slytherin buddies, he chose to help the blood-purification cause not by making coffee or by handing out leaflets, but by swearing lifetime allegiance to You-Know-Who. When's the last time you got a tattoo for a cause you don't believe in? And while there's no current evidence that Snape actually killed/tortured anybody, chances are he probably participated in the festivities. The Mafia, I've heard, inducts new members by making them particpate in a murder. I shudder to think what a potential DE has to do to become part of the gang. Additionally, his drinking buddies were Lucius "Just a spot of muggle torture, thanks, I'm trying to quit" Malfoy, Bellatrix "I tortured people into insanity and I all I got was this heavy-lidded expression" Lestrange, and Lord "kill the spare" Voldemort. At the very least, he's guilty of standing by and watching while his pals tortured and murdered innocents. Call me judgmental, but that's "evil" in my book. But what I really want to know is what made him turn his back on the dark side, and why Dumbledore believes Snape's story . . . I hope Snape will be a redeemed character, I really do. I don't hate the man, in fact I think he's positively fascinating. I just think he was probably a bit of an evil stinker in his DE days. -Melanie From meriaugust at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 20:41:59 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:41:59 -0000 Subject: Emotional Intimacy in the HP stories (not necessarily romantic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105516 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "harp66" wrote: > I'd like to address a related issue of intimacy, how it is depicted > in these stories. > > Is the relationship between Harry and Ron a good model of teenage > male friendship? In GoF we learn that Ron is the person who means > most to Harry. Is that reciprocated? And why don't they discuss girls? > Meri: Well, here's my theory. If JKR wrote down and published every single conversation that Harry, Ron and Hermione ever had then the books would be so long and inane that *I* would probably give up on them. (Examples: Ron: "Hey, Harry, did you see Parvati today? She looked sweet!" Harry: "Yeah..."; Hermione: "Ron, could you pass me my Arithmancy book, please?") I mean, I don't think I could even make it through reading that stuff. Conversations about the opposite sex, while making these kids seem more realistic (though I find them fairly well rounded) are not really relavant to the plots of the stories. This to me is much like the reason why we hardly ever see Harry bathe or use the men's room. That's sort of an individual activity, and, unlike mealtimes where significant conversation can occur, there really isn't much that can happen in the way of plot advancememnt. I think that, despite our own personal feelings on this, that romantic attachments, relationships and more intimate conversations will have to remain on the periphery of the story, just because they really aren't necessary for Harry to defeat LV or whatever. As to whether or not Harry means a lot to Ron, I don't think that's something we have to wonder about. In Order, when Percy wrote that letter, who did Ron choose to defend? Harry. Who marched off to battle with Harry in SS, CoS and Order? Ron. Who does Ron tell first about trying out for Quidditch? Harry. I'd say Ron probably looks at Harry as the nice brother he never quite had. > And Hermione. What are community members' thoughts on the way her > friendship with Ron/Harry is depicted in terms of sharing herself > with them emotionally? Shared adventures aside, how deep is their > relationship? And why isn't she shown to have female intimates? Is > this a flaw in the stories? Meri: Well, we don't know anything about what happens in the girl's dorms, and while Hermione doesn't seem to take to Lavender and Parvati, she is very close with Ginny, who probably looks to Hermione like a big sister/best friend type of deal. Ginny was, after all, the only one who knew that Viktor was taking her to the Yule Ball, they share a camp tent together and a room at the Burrow, and surely that is not a simple "your my big brother's friend" type realtionship. I can see Ginny needing a sister. But again, this is Harry's story, and more than that it is Harry's hero story. It bears little relevance to the plot what happens in the girls tower, and the one time it does (in Order, wher Hermione tells Harry that Parvati was badmouthing him and she told her to shut it) is specifically highlighted. This isn't Sweet Valley High or Dawson's Creek, and frankly I can live without those sorts of conversations. Just IMHO. Meri - who always prefered Roswell to Dawson's Creek, because at least that show tempered the teen angst with some neat-o special effects and hot alien sex From plungy116 at aol.com Sat Jul 10 20:32:10 2004 From: plungy116 at aol.com (haraheart) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:32:10 -0000 Subject: Emotional Intimacy in the HP stories (not necessarily romantic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105517 "harp66" wrote: >> Is the relationship between Harry and Ron a good model of teenage male friendship? What are community members' thoughts on the way her friendship with Ron/Harry is depicted in terms of sharing herself with them emotionally? Shared adventures aside, how deep is their relationship? And why isn't she shown to have female intimates? Is this a flaw in the stories? << I have a 14 year old son, and he seems incapable of sharing his feelings with anyone. He has friends that are boys and friends that are girls (and a couple of girlfriends in the proper sense). JKR could get completely bound up in teenage angst if she wanted to, but that is not the genre of the books. I think she tackles their emotional sides pretty well, and if Harry's feelings over Sirius and his parents isn't emotional I don't know what is. Teenagers are capable of having lots of close friends that are close for different reasons. Ron is Harry's mate, his best friend in all the world. Hermione is his window into the female psyche, but you could argue that Hermione is more of a swat and not actually that interested in the differences between boys and girls...if youknow what I mean. She will blossom. Cho Chang was his initiation into lurve... Malfoy his arch enemy -they will never be friends, no matter what transpires in Book 6 and 7. I think if JKR concentrated too much on their emontional side, we would get lost in it all "haraheart" From Batchevra at aol.com Sat Jul 10 20:44:58 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:44:58 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Tom Riddle - Riddle murders Message-ID: <15f.31cb4b67.2e21af4a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105518 In a message dated 7/10/04 12:00:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, wsherratt3338 at rogers.com writes: >The underage magic thing had occurred to me, too - they were killed in the summer, so wouldn't 3 AKs by an underaged wizard outside of school have been noticed by the MoM? Mostly, I'm just trying to get the timeline straight in my own mind, because I do think that Tom Riddle's history is going to be an important theme in the next book. I remember a series of old drawings, tracing "The Rake's Progress", showing a man's decline and fall. Well, I'm interested in "Tom Riddle's Progress", and would like to know just when he started down the wrong path, and if it was obvious at the time. Wanda< Not to excuse Tom Riddle Jr., but we don't know when the laws were enacted that underage wizards couldn't use magic out of school. If the laws weren't in place, then technically he wasn't breaking any law, except the ones about murder. Just a thought. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 21:24:42 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 21:24:42 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105519 Valky's post that started it all : > > James only uses physically non-harmful hexes Snape ( I won't say > > harmless because I concede the truth of psychological harm), Snape > > employs a more dangerous attack on James than James even considers > > unleashing on Snape. Although I accept that James was indeed having > > a bit o' a lark at Snapes expense I see he was *already noble*. Then Valky wrote : > Firstly lets bow and make honour Del, this may get bloody. Del replies : I can be tenacious, so I hope you've got enough food and drink at hand ;-) Valky wrote : > LOL, Just kidding! > But incedently did the Snape Fangs quip rope you in? Del replies : Nope, and they won't. Nobody can rope me in :-) You know, I realised this afternoon that those last weeks, I've defended Snape, Percy and Vernon. Maybe I should have become a lawyer ? Lol ! Valky wrote : > "the Avada Kedavra's a curse that needs a powerful bit of magic > behind it - you could all get your wands out now and point them at > me and say the words, and I doubt I'd get so much as a nose-bleed." > Crouch!Moody, GOF, Chapter 14 The Unforgivable Curses > > Therefore, I put to you Del, is it not beyond reasonable doubt that > this influence could apply to other magic? > If indeed you can show me where a doubt is reasonable....... Del replies : No, it's reasonable. However, I'd like to point out that Snape did not even voice his curse on James, and still it had an effect. That seems to counter your opinion that Snape was not powerfully magical. Which in turn means that if that curse was indeed AK, then Snape probably could actually kill with it already at that time. I wonder why he didn't use it on James in a much more quiet place and time ...? Valky wrote : > Now, reminded that we are speaking of a boy only 15 attempting > *possibly* a curse that *could* (most probably would! for my mind > but again just mho) inflict a mortal wound upon the recipient. > The chance is, he isn't powerful enough to do it, yet. But he's > practicing, and he *would* choose that curse over such thing as a > slug hex or something less ummmm well sinister. Del replies : Snape is a lot of unpleasant things, but he's not *stupid*. I seriously doubt that he would go killing a fellow student in broad daylight and in front of dozens of eye-witnesses. Honestly, if he really wanted to kill James, he could do it in a much more discrete way. Just send a fake note from Lily telling him to meet her in a secluded place at night, and zap him away from spying eyes. But do it right in front of half the school ?? Please ! How could he ever hope to justify it ? "He disarmed me, Headmaster, and filled my mouth with soap bubbles, he deserved to die !" I don't think so. Valky wrote : > "...only because you're too noble to use them..." ring a bell to you > at all? Del replies : "Who wants to see me take off Snivelly's pants ?" Ring another bell ? Valky wrote : > But James, who although he dislikes Snape, doesn't really want to > put the boys life at risk, would rather be content to, in his own > dunderhead act before he thinks way, demonstrate to Snape that Dark > magic is no substitute for the talent of a wizard like him. > So he uses silly hexes. The teasing and humiliation is a byline to > it all. (Well there's not enough canon to actually prove that yet, > but there will be.) Del replies : I disagree. It's pretty clear to me that all James and Sirius were after was entertainment and showing off. They keep mocking Snape, and they obviously take great pleasure in making the crowd laugh. They just wanted to make fun of Snape, and to show off their talents, that's just it. Valky wrote : > I am only pointing out that James drew the line at killing or > actually physically harming him but it is likely, very likely that > Snape didn't. Even after Snape did throw the curse that cut his > face, FROM BEHIND, he did not retaliate he humiliated. Del replies : It's *James* that broke the rules of fair duelling : he didn't let his opponent get into position before attacking *2 on 1* AND *without provocation* - that makes THREE serious breaches in the rules of fair duelling. After that, I don't see how anyone can blame Snape for not following those rules either : he was just following James's lead. Valky wrote : > Could James mind not be "This is teaching the coward some humility." Del replies : James was so brave indeed, going 2 on 1... Valky wrote : > Snape, after all, is part of a Slytherin Racial Prejudice Gang. Del replies : So what ? As long as Snape doesn't DO anything wrong (like insulting Lily, but even then it wasn't James's job to punish him), James has NO RIGHT to punish Snape. Nobody is allowed to punish anyone else for their OPINIONS. Valky wrote : > ....we cannot judge that James was not already noble in using milder > counterhexes. Sirius certainly seemed to believe so........... Del replies : Hanging someone upside down, threatening to take their underwear off (and maybe actually doing it), I don't see anything noble in that, and I see something very emotionally damaging. If someone took your kid's clothes off rather than beating him up, I don't think you'd find that "milder". Valky wrote : > Snape was in neck deep in the Dark Arts, He exhibited racially > prejudice behaviour. Del replies : Being fascinated by the Dark Arts is not a crime. And we don't know that Snape exhibited racism : we know he believed in it, but we don't know that he acted on those beliefs. Seems to me that if Snape had been bullying Lily for being a Muggle-born for 5 years, she would not have come to his defence, and she would not have been so surprised at his insult. Once again, I repeat : you can't punish someone for their *beliefs*, only for their *acts* Valky wrote : > Snape was an EXAMPLE. > James and Sirius took the duty upon themselves in their stupid > teenage pride, in their overwrought cause to MAKE PEOPLE LAUGH AT > THE DARK ARTS AND RACIAL PREJUDICE!!! Del replies : No. They were making people laugh at Snape, the person. At no moment did they explain that they were punishing him for what he represented and not for what he was. It was a personal attack. Proof of that is that when Lily asks James why he's attacking Snape, he doesn't mention the Dark Arts, he doesn't mention the racism, he doesn't mention doing an example, he simply says he doesn't like the fact that Snape exists : Snape, not his beliefs, not his actions, not his friends, just Snape himself. I, Del, wrote : > > Snape, on the other hand, was trying to win what he considered to > > be a classic wizard duel. The best and fastest way is to disable > > your opponent, hence the physically harming curse. Valky answered : > From Behind? > Still makes him less than noble in his intentions. Del replies : Yep, after having been attack for no reason, by 2 people, who didn't leave him any time to get into position. James and Sirius played dirty right from the beginning, Snape followed suit. Valky wrote : > Well I didn't really mean that *it* was noble. > I am sure I said that *James* was already noble. > The nobility is behind the action. > He *was* an 'idiot'. > With a belief in something noble and a noble heart and spirit. > He didn't have to change that. > Snape on the other hand.....? Del replies : In short James had a noble heart but acted vilely, while Snape had a vile heart but we have no proof he acted in any vile way. Humph. And just because Snape's beliefs aren't popular doesn't mean he should change them. He's a got a RIGHT to think as he wants. He just doesn't have the right to act in certain ways. That's a BIG difference. Del, obviously not convinced yet :-) From donpietro69 at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jul 10 15:12:04 2004 From: donpietro69 at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Lee=20Moyo?=) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:12:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape-aholics and Siriophiles and...? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040710151204.8723.qmail@web25106.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105520 Kneasy recently said: > > In the constant to-ing and fro-ing about Snape and Sirius which > > seems to be one of the dividing lines between the fans... Andromeda wrote: > And they certainly aren't mutually exclusive groups, as SSSusan has > repeatedly proved. > I always found the fact that, for the most part, the lines appear rather divided as I find the two characters remarkably similar at times. Both seem to have come from troubled homes, both have trouble letting old grudges die, neither seem to be able to extend or accept apologies, and both can be usually cruel to others (though most often to each). And yet, again generally speaking, fans often think one disgustingly evil and the other merely a hero in diguise. I, personally, am one of those fans who loves both characters. I am both Snape-aholic and Siriophile. I enjoy the fact that Snape is not a good guy and shows no real desire to ever become one - it's true to his personality and a sudden change from that (ie being nice to Harry) would ruin him as a character. On the other hand, I like the bad-boyness of Sirius and if had ever apologized to Snape for his behavior as teen and adult I thinks I would have been greatly disappointed. Tooks - Snape-aholic, Siriophile, and proud to be both Lee I to, am a fan of both and it would ruin their characters if that happened. For one in real life people don't always do the right thing even if it is obvious. But that does not make them bad and as such I still believe Sirius is good, just he is not perfect and no one is. As for Snape believe he is the way he is cause forgiving some things is really hard. An we know he is Loyal to DD having reported Harry going to the Ministry. He probably is the way he is cause he prefers being alone which a lot of people do. He might find that Gaining respect was better than making friends as i have head teachers just like that. And some time they surprise us after we find out that they do have some people that they are close to. We don't know the history of Snape cause he does not put that in the pensive or if he does harry does not have enough time to explore the other thoughts before Snape catches hm. What i am saying is, we could find that He joined LV after some one who was close to him would have been help in one way or another by him joining the DE. We never see his side cause we are seeing the world through Harry's eyes So in a nut shell i think we need more evidence before we can say we really don't like him Lee still trying to catch up to speed to the many discussions which are interesting and have never looked at in another point of view. I love these forums --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hallisallimalli at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 20:53:56 2004 From: hallisallimalli at yahoo.com (halli) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:53:56 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle - Riddle murders In-Reply-To: <15f.31cb4b67.2e21af4a@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105521 Batchevra: > Not to excuse Tom Riddle Jr., but we don't know when the laws were > enacted that underage wizards couldn't use magic out of school. If > the laws weren't in place, then technically he wasn't breaking any > law, except the ones about murder. Just a thought. halli: I was always under the impression, from Aunt Petunia's outburst in the hut on the rock, that the underage wizard restrictions came after Lily left school, that and if Lily wasn't allowed to use magic during the holidays then Harry wouldn't either, and she would definently mention this to Vernon when they were all terrified of waking up as bats in the second book. From HPGroup at colinogilvie.co.uk Sat Jul 10 21:02:33 2004 From: HPGroup at colinogilvie.co.uk (Colin O) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 22:02:33 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] PoA Question In-Reply-To: <000c01c466a6$45173690$14c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> References: <000c01c466a6$45173690$14c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: <40F05969.1090903@colinogilvie.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 105522 Cathy Drolet wrote: > So, do you think the stuff that has been left out, important things, > mean they are not as important after all? To a cerain extent, I would say yes. IIRC, from the Chamber of Secrets DVD Extras, Steve Kloves script is checked with JKR to ensure that the details in the film are important to the rest of the story, and that nothing vital is missed out, so that people just watching the film get as much as people who read the book. -- Regards, Colin From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sat Jul 10 21:34:17 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 21:34:17 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes (or Snape-aholics and Siriophiles) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105523 SSSusan, previously: > > I'm curious how you would take DD's remark to Harry, then, > near the > > end of OoP: > > ************************************ > > "Snape stopped giving me Occlumency lessons!" Harry > snarled. "He threw me out of his office!" > > > > "I am aware of it," said DD heavily. "I have already said that it > > was a mistake for me not to teach you myself...." > > > > "Snape made it worse, my scar always hurt worse after > lessons with him--... How do you know he wasn't trying to soften > me up for Voldemort...." > > > > "I trust Severus Snape," said DD simply. "But I forgot--another > old man's mistake--that some wounds run too deep for the > healing. I thought Professor Snape could overcome his feelings > about your father--I was wrong." [US, 833] > > ************************************ > > > > Is this speech of DD's part of the act, then? Or is there > > *something* going on w/ Snape besides a minor dislike of > Harry and an act to maintain for preventing spoiled!Harry? DD > said Snape was "too old & clever" to have allowed Sirius' "feeble > taunts" to hurt him. How can he turn around a minute later in the > conversation and say what he did about Snape's relationship > with James? > > > > So IS Snape's hatred [or whatever word is appropriate] of > James a part of Snape's treatment of Harry or not? > > Pippin: > That's a typo, right? Or possibly a Freudian slip In any > case it was Sirius that Dumbledore said was too old and clever > to be hurt by Snape's feeble taunts. Which makes sense, I think. > Sirius, AFAWK, has never had any real doubts about his > courage, so why would Snape's taunts get to him? He could > have ignored them if he chose to--but he was bored and spoiling > for a fight. > On the other hand, when Snape threw Harry out of the office, he > had just been forced to actually relive his memory of how James > had treated him. And fifteen year old Snape was obviously not > too old or too clever to let James's taunting, which I wouldn't call > feeble, get to him. SSSusan again: OHMYGOSH!!!!!!!! You are so right! I can't believe I mixed those up. [blushes deeply] Hmmmm.... Still, though... I think the *idea* that DD would say one man of that age was too old & clever to be hurt by taunts and then say ANOTHER man of that age can't get past old stuff w/ Harry's dad doesn't quite cut it. Why would he hold Sirius & Snape to different standards in that? I see what you're saying about Snape having been *15* when the taunts hit him, as opposed to Sirius being mid-30s. But is that really difference enough for DD? Maybe so. Pippin: > I guess I'm in the middle between SSSusan and Kneasy on > this--I think that Dumbledore does see advantages for Harry in > letting Snape be his nasty self, and that he co-operates far more > closely with Snape than Harry realizes. On the other hand, I think > Snape has a genuine loathing of Harry, based on Harry's looks > and on Snape's honest belief that fruit doesn't fall far from the > tree. Dumbledore wishes this weren't so, but has no power, as > he says, to make men see the truth. > > Perhaps both Snape and Dumbledore feel that since Harry is > going to benefit unfairly from the good things people like Hagrid > and Sirius remember about his parents, it's corrective that he > suffer for the bad as well. Note that Dumbledore doesn't say that > he hoped Snape would overcome the feeling that Harry was like > his father--rather he hoped it was Snape's feelings about James > that could be overcome. SSSusan: I appreciate your take, Pippin. As always, your grasp of canon is awesome, and I think this "middle ground" makes sense. That is an excellent point that Harry is going to hear primarily good things about his dad from Hagrid, Sirius, Lupin & DD. Snape is really the only one to counter that, isn't he? What a shock--we're back to not black or white but grey yet again with ol' Snapey?! ;-) Siriusly Snapey Susan From donpietro69 at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jul 10 15:32:23 2004 From: donpietro69 at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Lee=20Moyo?=) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:32:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: SHIP: Hermione's Reaction to... In-Reply-To: <20040710151551.91221.qmail@web25301.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040710153223.46831.qmail@web25109.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105524 udder_pen_dragon wrote: Again I have re-read the whole section we have been discussing Pages 403 to 408 in the UK edition. I think that here we have Hermione setting out her stall; Ron you're one of my best friends but I don't fancy you; and Harry I promise I have never cried when I have dreamed of kissing you. I believe that Ron is worried about the trio. aboutthe1910s wrote: I took the "Of course you're not" more to mean that Hermione understands what is actually going on with Cho (and hopefully is mildly...disgusted is too strong, but some watered down version of that). I took the insulting of Ron to imply both that she thinks that he is a moron for not realizing that she likes him and also that she herself is still uncomforable with her feelings for him. Just to offer an alternative reading of the section... I totally agree with "aboutthe1910s" on this point. I wrote a long theory on that we should not dismiss the R/H relationship and is much as likely as the H/H relationship. Your augment has swayed me a bit towards the latter, but caution would be wise, i am going to read that section again to confirm but if Hermione has dreamt of kissing Harry then it is possible that she likes both but is not sure which way she will go. Harry being the easy way cause all would say she chose a good boy and Ron would be good for her cause she likes him but others may not think so open for ridicule amongst her peers which as we know at that age is not the best thing and that it is the impotent things around that stage. I here people saying Hermione is far to bright for that, well just look at her in the first book when she ran to the toilet when the troll was there, she was upset by what Ron had said about her and as much as her having her priorities right she was still bothered by what he said no necessarily what other people say Lee From gelite67 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 21:16:38 2004 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 21:16:38 -0000 Subject: HBP of What? In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.0.20040710085821.02b173a0@mail.toltbbs.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105525 ---> > Phil comes up with a brilliant idea: > What if the Half Blood Prince is Peeves, the school poltergeist? > Half blood could mean half ghost and half wizard. Angie replies: Interesting. Someone (drawing a blank on who said it, but I think it was in SS) said that Peeves wasn't a real ghost, anyway, or words to that effect. Never understood what was meant by that remark. From gelite67 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 21:23:46 2004 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 21:23:46 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle in CoS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105526 --- > Sonya wrote: > > > What did Mr. Malfoy hope to gain from passing on the Diary? If > > > he was hoping to bring Tom back so he could become LV again (and > > > the killings) would that make Mr. Malfoy a 'good' DE? > Angie replies: I think he knew; why else do it? If he didn't know what the diary did, then he thought all he was doing was giving Ginny a free diary! Lucius was apparently very close to LV; he had his diary after all and LV forgave him pretty easily when he finally was able to reassume a human form and call his DE to him. Dumbledore seemed to feel it was a plot to discredit Mr. Weasley and the Anti-Muggle Protection Act, which would have worked if Ginny, as the daughter of the drafter of the Act, was determined to be the one who opened the COS. (See Dumbledore's comments to Lucius after Harry returns from the COS). From gelite67 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 21:12:44 2004 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 21:12:44 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's possessions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105527 Mo wrote: > > I had wondered that too. If Tom Riddle had grown stronger through > the diary, would he be LV or a young TR? > Angie replies: Funny you should mention that. I just finished reading COS (again) and started POA (again) and JKR in her summary setting up the story in POA, stated that, "Barely alive, Voldemort had fled . . . ." (Next paragraph, next line) "But Harry had come face to face with him at Hogwarts." So, JKR doesn't refer to "him" as Tom Riddle, even though, she was clearly referring to the person Harry came face to face with in the COS. My theory is that it would have strengthened LV in the present. I admit, I still new at this and I don't know what JKR may have said about this issue, but I don't buy into the dual aspect of TR and V. What was it Lincoln said, "A Voldemort divided against itself cannot stand?" :) From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Sat Jul 10 21:49:57 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 21:49:57 -0000 Subject: HP and the Half Blood Git In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105528 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vituperative404" wrote: Melanie: > And while there's no current evidence that Snape actually > killed/tortured anybody, chances are he probably participated in >the festivities. "K": Maybe he got out before he participated in those activities. o_o Melanie: >Additionally, his drinking buddies were Lucius "Just a spot of >muggle torture, thanks, I'm trying to quit" Malfoy, Bellatrix "I >tortured people into insanity and I all I got was this heavy-lidded >expression" Lestrange, and Lord "kill the spare" Voldemort. At the >very least, he's guilty of standing by and watching while his pals >tortured and murdered innocents. "K": There's no canon proof yet that Snape every stood by and watched while his pals tortured and murdered. Why oh why would Dumbledore ever hire someone to teach if they had done those things? Just to keep a closer watch over them? That's taking an awful big risk. I'm not saying there's no possible way Snape was never that evil. I'm just saying we don't know that yet and until then I'm not putting him in that camp. One can still hope he never did those things. I don't like *evil* people either. :-) From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 21:46:25 2004 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 21:46:25 -0000 Subject: HBP of What? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105529 > > Phil comes up with a brilliant idea: > > What if the Half Blood Prince is Peeves, the school poltergeist? > > Half blood could mean half ghost and half wizard. Angie: > Interesting. Someone (drawing a blank on who said it, but I think > it was in SS) said that Peeves wasn't a real ghost, anyway, or words > to that effect. Never understood what was meant by that remark. Katie: So far as I understand it, a poltergeist *isn't* really a ghost. They're both disembodied, cognizant spirits, but a ghost is the spirit of *someone who used to be alive*, while a poltergeist is a malevolent spirit that was *never actually alive*. So Peeves can't be a half-blood of that kind, anyway. He's always been a poltergeist, and always will be. -Katie From patientx3 at aol.com Sat Jul 10 22:00:17 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 22:00:17 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105530 Valky wrote: >>But James, who although he dislikes Snape, doesn't really want to put the boys life at risk, would rather be content to, in his own dunderhead act before he thinks way, demonstrate to Snape that Dark magic is no substitute for the talent of a wizard like him. So he uses silly hexes. The teasing and humiliation is a byline to it all. (Well there's not enough canon to actually prove that yet, but there will be.) I am only pointing out that James drew the line at killing or actually physically harming him but it is likely, very likely that Snape didn't. Even after Snape did throw the curse that cut his face, FROM BEHIND, he did not retaliate he humiliated.<< HunterGreen: But as Del said, their *intentions* were entirely different. Had they encountered each other in the hallway and the attack started from both ends at the same time, I could see your point, but that wasn't how it was at all. Snape was *alone* sitting outside going over his paper, (deep in thought, actually), when James and Sirius attack him *first*. Yes, Snape goes for his wand, but why shouldn't he? Look at the events leading up to the incident, Sirius is bored, and both him and James are in a playful mood. They are out to get some laughs, just injuring Snape wouldn't be as entertaining. Then their actions are certainly concerning, first of all its two against one, (more than that if you count they have Lupin and Peter in the sidelines which may or may not have meant something to Snape), then they *disarm* Snape, and put the impedimenta charm on him so he couldn't retrieve it. Thus Snape is disarmed, AND unable to move and that's when they really get into teasing him, when he can't possible retaliate. How is that any better than hitting someone from behind? IMO, hitting someone with a spell (in this case 'scourgify') when they can't possibly defend themself is the same as hitting them from behind. As for the 'deadliness' of Snape's spell, that's all conjecture. We don't know what it was. For all we know it was a particularily powerful missed Stupify or Expelliarmus, both which would have been acceptable in this situation. It *could* have been worse, but we don't know either way. However, just because Snape was trying to injur James and James wasn't trying to injur him, doesn't make James any better than Snape. James was with three friends, he certainly wasn't in any danger. Snape, on the other hand, (at least from his own perception), was. The nature of the hexes James and Sirius were using could have easily escalated to something dangerous (as they nearly do, when they use Scourgify and Snape begins choking). >>Could James mind not be "This is teaching the coward some humility."<< The person who is a coward in this situation, if anyone is, is James. He's the one attacking someone two against one, and attacking someone who is disarmed and unable to move. >>Snape, after all, is part of a Slytherin Racial Prejudice Gang.<< But is he at this point? We know a few of the death-eaters were older than Snape/James/Sirius/Peter/Lupin, perhaps his "gang" had already graduated. In any case, if he did have a gang, at this point none of them are around so it doesn't really matter. Del continues: > James was trying to *humiliate* Snape, not to necessarily hurt him. > That's why he had him fall, he had him hung upside-down, and he had > his mouth washed with soap. He was trying to make people *laugh* at > Snape, not pity him. Valky: >>Snape was an EXAMPLE. James and Sirius took the duty upon themselves in their stupid teenage pride, in their overwrought cause to MAKE PEOPLE LAUGH AT THE DARK ARTS AND RACIAL PREJUDICE!!!<< HunterGreen: I'm sorry, I just don't buy that. Maybe if Snape had been doing something at the time and they strode forward and made an example of his behavior, but at that moment Snape had been minding his own business, and wasn't bothering anyone. Sirius was *bored*, and James and him were trying to have a laugh. Yes, Snape was into the dark arts and was prejudice, but is putting him upside down and all that really going to change his attitude? Or, for that matter, change the attitude of any passing Slytherins? If anything, James and Sirius are setting rather poor examples of what 'non-pure-blood-fanatic-dark- arts-loving' wizards are like. Del: > Snape, on the other hand, was trying to win what he considered to be a classic wizard duel. The best and fastest way is to disable your > opponent, hence the physically harming curse. Valky: >>From Behind? Still makes him less than noble in his intentions.<< HunterGreen: Who said he was trying to be noble? He was attacked, he attacked back, it seems rather straightforward to me. Del: > And I sure don't think that humiliating someone is *noble*.< Valky: >>Well I didn't really mean that *it* was noble. I am sure I said that *James* was already noble. The nobility is behind the action. He *was* an 'idiot'. With a belief in something noble and a noble heart and spirit. He didn't have to change that. Snape on the other hand.....?<< HunterGreen: Are you asking about 15-year-old Snape or adult Snape? Because adult Snape has shown himself to be noble on many occasions (including switching sides at great risk to himself). As for teenage Snape, well, considering that he came to school with all those ideas of dark magic, who's to say he wasn't raised that way? (and yes, I know Sirius was too, but Sirius was sorted into Gryffindor, and thus had someone else to make an impression on him). He was taught to behave that way, so hating muggle-borns was "right" and "noble" for him. Clearly, he had it the wrong way around, but who taught him the right way? I'd bet that whoever the Slytherin head of house was then certainly wasn't a good example, and Dumbledore not punishing Sirius seriously enough (in Snape's opionion) after the prank incident certainly didn't help. Also, if he really did have a "gang of Slytherins", those might have been his only friends (in the pensieve scene its noted that he's not very popular), so if the only students who were actually nice to him were other young death eaters, from his perception he could get the idea that that was the way to be. Hating muggle-borns, thus, was as noble to him as hating people who hated muggle-borns was to James. -HunterGreen (AKA Rebecca) From donpietro69 at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jul 10 18:30:10 2004 From: donpietro69 at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Lee=20Moyo?=) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 19:30:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Why do we always gang up on Sirius? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040710183010.66722.qmail@web25103.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105531 Mo wrote: > Sirius was good for Harry. He was an adult figure that Harry could > be close to, as is Lupin. But, Sirius was one thing more - his > Godfather. > > Sirius did act irresponsible at times. But, in all actuality, the > only people who consistently act responsible are Dumbledore, Mad Eye, > and McGonagall. ...And, Lupin, Mr. Weasly, and Tonks, up to a point. > > I think some people blame Sirius because they need someone to blame. > When, really, we all know who is to blame. And that is LV and the > DEs. Lee: There is a fair point I suppose about that, but I am mad at him nonetheless. He should have known that he had to be a bit responsible with his life as he, for Harry, was the one thing that made him feel like he was not alone when others went home. There was that hope that one day he will be cleared and there will be a stage where he can have that father person to go shopping with or whatever he may feel needs from adult support-wise. Yes I know he has the Weasleys, but it is not the same. And if you ask me, now he is going to blame himself and not feel like a kid. Then there is that feeling where he might feel like anyone who comes close to him will leave. I mean maybe that is the case with Snape. But that is another discussion all together. From meltowne at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 22:00:42 2004 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 22:00:42 -0000 Subject: "He who has left me for ever" [was Re: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes) (Long)] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105532 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brenda M." wrote: > Bren now: > > I thought the one "who has left me for ever" was Cornelius Fudge. Any > idea WHY his last name is so delicious but his character isn't? I > read this in the North Tower Column in Mugglenet.com and it was very > convincing, to me at least. I have not yet read the essays, but I was already thinking the same - consider that the scene at the beginning of the PoA movie wih Fudge doesn't really seem that importatnt to the movie, and ould have been eliminated - save for the fact that it might be the important scene that JRK said had to remain. > Another point I wanted to make is this: > > I have seen HP fans deciding which character is a DE and who's not, > mostly based on the Graveyard Scene in GoF. This is definitely a > great incident to categorize characters that way, if not the best. I > highly doubt that Voldemort was trying to fool his `true family' > there, I think *what he says* can be taken at face value. I emphasize > *what he says* because I don't think he necessarily revealed > EVERYTHING there. > > Now, I am not too certain just WHO is marked as Death Eater and who > is not but I did some counting from the books just to amuse myself. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > 1. Death Eaters from Graveyard: 16+ > -- Wormtail, Avery, Lucius, Lestranges (2), "the next man", Macnair, > Crabbe, Goyle, Nott, `6 missing lads VM talks about' -- > > "Some of the Death Easters he passed in silence, but he paused > before others, and spoke to them" (GoF, 564-565. UK) I would assume even if there were 30 wizards, these would only be the "inner circle" and tht not all would be named - we have already been told that only LV himself knows who all the death eaters are. > 2. The Order of Phoenix: 22+ > -- Moody, Dumbledore, Delalus Diggle, Marlene McKinnon, Frank & Alice Longbottom, Emmeline Vance, Remus Lupin, Benjy Fenwick, Edgar Bones, Sturgis Podmore, Caradoc Dearborn, Hagrid, Elphias Doge, Gideon & Fabian Prewett, Aberforth, Dorcas Meadowes, Sirius, James, Lily, Peter -- > > But Lupin says later on, when comforting Molly after her encounter > with Boggarts, "Last time we were outnumbered twenty to one by Death > Eaters and they were picking us off one by one " (OoP, 161. UK) Again, if the 30 in the graveyard are only the inner circle, this would fit well. I suspect Fudge was a death eater, and the reason he doesn't want to "belive" that LV is back is because he has gotten comfortable with his own level of power in his absence. A Return of LV means LV will want to be in control. Fudge was only a death eater because it served his own purposes, not out of loyalty to LV. From omphale at onetel.com Sat Jul 10 21:59:35 2004 From: omphale at onetel.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 21:59:35 -0000 Subject: Caradoc has the name for a HBP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105533 Hi, new to the list, but re the question of HBP, try taking a look at http://www.bartleby.com/182/107.html for a very possible HBP. Note that his father was a wizard and he is the son of King Arthur's neice, which quite possibly makes him entitled to be called prince. He gets the princess in the end, plus the intriguing bits about the snake ..... maybe it's about time he came back from the dead. As someone else on the list said - never trust JKR when there's no body to be found. Saraquel From meltowne at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 22:11:23 2004 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 22:11:23 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle - Riddle murders In-Reply-To: <20040710144325.8031.qmail@web25105.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105534 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lee Moyo wrote: > Wanda Sherratt wrote: > > How old was Tom Riddle when the Riddles were murdered? Did it > happen > > before the basilisk incident in Cos, or after? I'm not quite sure > > which came first, and if Tom was still a student when his father > and > > grandparents were killed, or had just graduated. > > dawnflight1984 wrote: > I wonder if it really matters whether Tom was still a student or has > already graduated. One thing was for sure, he wasn't an underaged > wizard at that time, meaning he's probably at least 17 then and he > murdered them before he was Voldemort. Right? > > Lee: > > That is true but as DD pointed out, after Tom left School he disappeared for a long time and went many different changes before he came out calling him self LV. So he could have done it any time between that period. I don't have the book here with me, but I think I recall something about him being 16, but it could have been later. As for being called LV, didn't Diary Riddle explain "I am Lord Voldemort" neing an anagram to Harry? From srobles at caribe.net Sat Jul 10 22:15:00 2004 From: srobles at caribe.net (anasazi_pr) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 22:15:00 -0000 Subject: Second Task Choice (was: Emotional Intimacy in the HP stories...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105535 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "harp66" wrote: > Is the relationship between Harry and Ron a good model of teenage > male friendship? In GoF we learn that Ron is the person who means > most to Harry. Is that reciprocated? > Actually, I believe that both Ron and Hermione mean the same to Harry. I think the second task was chosen based on who would he miss the most (I don't have the book with me, but I think the puzzle said "miss" specifically). There could be two reasons why he chose Ron over Hermione: a. Having just gotten over a row with Ron that lasted for a month, Harry had a very fresh memory of what it would be like to lose Ron and how much he would miss him. b. Krum got to choose first. And we all know he chose Hermione. I like to believe is the second one, because I'd like to thin that he'd miss both Ron and Hermione the same (seems to fit with the trio interaction presented in OoTP). Just my two knuts, Anasazi -who's anxious that she's going to write the wrong thing now that she's unmoderated- From sherriola at earthlink.net Sat Jul 10 22:25:16 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:25:16 -0600 Subject: Snape questions Message-ID: <009d01c466cc$c72dde10$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 105536 Hi everyone, Well, I have been deleting many Snape posts, and even though I'm a Siriusfile, i've been deleting a lot of those too, just because of being away and coming home to 500 messages in my inbox! So, if someone has posted this question in the past or in the last couple days, please excuse me. However, a friend and I just finished reading POA together. We do this by reading it chapter by chapter and writing down long detailed comments on anything that strikes us as we read. We email our comments to each other and respond to each other's observations. When I was doing my comments on chapters 21 and 22, something struck me that I hadn't ever really thought of before. In OOTP, we are told that Snape is a skilled legilimens--did I spell that correctly? In fact, I think this could be born out in previous books in the way that Snape always knows Harry's been up to something. But in the hospital scenes at the end of POA, he doesn't seem to be using that talent. If so, he'd know that what the kids tell him--Harry and Hermione--is the truth. So, if he really went down to the shrieking shack to protect Harry and company from Sirius and Lupin, why didn't he know that Harry was telling the truth later in the hospital wing, if he's so skilled at legilimens? I do not like Snape as a person, but he intrigues me as a character, if that makes sense. I actually want to believe he may not be nice, but he can still be good or on the side of good. However, this thought about the legilimens made me wonder. Is he indeed just an unpleasant teacher, who really is trying to do his best to protect Harry, so Harry can do whatever his destiny will be in the war? Or was he just trying to get back at his old classmates, who did not treat him well and didn't really care what the truth was of the scene in the shrieking shack? Ever since this question came to me, I cannot get it out of my mind. Is it just an inconsistency in the text, because JKR didn't want to introduce legilimens till book five? Sherry G From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 22:41:00 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 22:41:00 -0000 Subject: Snape questions In-Reply-To: <009d01c466cc$c72dde10$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105537 Sherry Gomes wrote: > something struck me that I hadn't ever really thought of before. In > OOTP, we are told that Snape is a skilled legilimens--did I spell > that correctly? Del replies : Hum, in fact, now that you mention it, that's not exactly what we are told. We are told that Snape is a superb Occlumens, and we are shown that he can use Legilimency on Harry. But I don't think we are ever told that Snape is terribly good at Lagilimency. DD, for example, seems able to use Legilimency on someone without a wand, without saying the spell, and even without eye contact. But we don't know that Snape can do that. Any time he uses Legilimency on Harry, he uses his wand and the spell, even if there might not always be eye-contact. So it could be that Snape is not such a good Legilimens. I know he always seems to know when Harry has been lying, but that could just be good psychology or something like that. And I guess it must be even harder to use Legilimency when excited, stressed or angry. Just my guess, Del From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat Jul 10 22:45:29 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 22:45:29 -0000 Subject: Snape vs James In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105538 Marty wrote: > This is just a thought since I have no recall of any information > about either the family history of either Snape or James in relation > to actual people. We know that James was wealthy, and that Snape, > from his own memory, appeared to not be wealthy. > > snip> > Well, what if part of the issue is that they are related - two sides > of the family - the well-off one, and the grumpy, angry, not-so- > well off side. In many cases, just the financial difference would > lead to jealousy. However when factored in is the abilities and > popularity, perhaps the jealous factor has grown out of porportion > to the original reason it existed when they were children. Perhaps > this is a key to the back story that will be developed. >snip Potioncat: This could be possible. No canon either way. I tend to expect we may find out Serius and Severus are related. There seems to be a sort of sibling rivalry between them. They have look alike and to a certain extent behave in similar ways. And there are some comments Serius makes about owning Grimmauld place that seem to be slighting Severus. And I tend to wonder if Serius early on, promoted the ill feeling between James and Severus. It's Serius that tells us that Severus was skilled in Dark Arts and that James didn't like them. But we're told James liked to hex people just because he could. And I have a hard time believing Serius didn't arrive at Hogwarts knowing some Dark Arts. At any rate, I think there is a lot more to the story than we know. Potioncat From rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu Sat Jul 10 22:48:05 2004 From: rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu (susanbones2003) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 22:48:05 -0000 Subject: Emotional Intimacy in the HP stories (not necessarily romantic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105539 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "harp66" wrote: > I'd like to address a related issue of intimacy, how it is depicted > in these stories. > > Is the relationship between Harry and Ron a good model of teenage > male friendship? In GoF we learn that Ron is the person who means > most to Harry. Is that reciprocated? And why don't they discuss girls? > > And Hermione. What are community members' thoughts on the way her > friendship with Ron/Harry is depicted in terms of sharing herself > with them emotionally? Shared adventures aside, how deep is their > relationship? And why isn't she shown to have female intimates? Is > this a flaw in the stories? > > "harp66" I am just getting initiated into the current world of "teen" talk and I can tell you, the conversations I hear contain very little emotional depth. This story follows what's in Harry's mind and heart and we know how much feeling he has but how rarely he can communicate it adequately. I can't get over how dead on this aspect of the writing is. That yawning gap between Harry's inner life and his outward experience is brilliant. That overwhelming desire to reach out to Harry and tell him it's okay to ask for help is so full of pathos. And, even though this group regularly seems to forget they are children in a world that still allows for childhood, perhaps they are talking about their lives at the level at which they understand them. Beyond that, Harry grew up with no friends whatsoever. Ron and Hermione are rather late introductions to his experiences. He's taken to them well, but perhaps he's still more of a loner than we ever seem to recognize as is perhaps, someone suggested, Hermione. With all this said, I do not find their lack of "deep conversation" a drawback, flaw or oversight on the author's part. The fact that all three go into all manner of danger for each other is much more important than talking about their emotional lives. Actions do speak louder than words, even on paper. Jennifer From shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 22:52:55 2004 From: shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 22:52:55 -0000 Subject: Second Task Choice (was: Emotional Intimacy in the HP stories...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105540 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "anasazi_pr" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "harp66" wrote: > > Is the relationship between Harry and Ron a good model of teenage > > male friendship? In GoF we learn that Ron is the person who means > > most to Harry. Is that reciprocated? > > > > Actually, I believe that both Ron and Hermione mean the same to > Harry. I think the second task was chosen based on who would he miss > the most (I don't have the book with me, but I think the puzzle > said "miss" specifically). > > There could be two reasons why he chose Ron over Hermione: > > a. Having just gotten over a row with Ron that lasted for a month, > Harry had a very fresh memory of what it would be like to lose Ron > and how much he would miss him. > > b. Krum got to choose first. And we all know he chose Hermione. > > I like to believe is the second one, because I'd like to thin that > he'd miss both Ron and Hermione the same (seems to fit with the trio > interaction presented in OoTP). > > Just my two knuts, > Anasazi > -who's anxious that she's going to write the wrong thing now that > she's unmoderated- Perhaps I missed a sentence or two in GoF, or its just been so long since I've read it straight through, but I dont ever remember Harry choosing Ron. Seems to me Ron was chosen for him. I can see the powers that chose saying, "well, Krum hasn't brought anyone with him and he seems to be pretty fond of Hermy so lets pair them up and go ahead and pair up Potter and Weasly." Jason From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 22:56:28 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 22:56:28 -0000 Subject: "He who has left me for ever" [was Re: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes) (Long)] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105541 Bren: I thought the one "who has left me for ever" was Cornelius Fudge Meltowne: I suspect Fudge was a death eater, and the reason he doesn't want to "belive" that LV is back is because he has gotten comfortable with his own level of power in his absence. A Return of LV means LV will want to be in control. Fudge was only a death eater because it served his own purposes, not out of loyalty to LV. Neri: The main reason I don't believe Fudge was "the one who left me forever" is that if Fudge was a DE, he has to have the Dark Mark, and his Dark Mark must have summoned him to the graveyard. In fact, he should have felt his Dark Mark becoming stronger through the whole year before, just like Snape and Karkaroff. He would have known for sure that Voldy is back. Why then would he refuse to believe DD and Harry? Not only that, he fought against DD for a whole year, causing a lot of damage to the war against LV. If Fudge is an ex-DE on the run from Voldy, then he should have made any effort to help DD. DD is his only hope of staying alive. OTOH if Fudge is a DE who is still loyal to Voldy, he would have arranged for Voldy to get into the DoM in the beginning of OotP, and the whole story of OotP was very different. Until I come across some good answers to these problems, I'm inclined to believe Fudge is what he appears. Of course, I sure he's still covering after some serious debacles of the Ministry, probably regarding the DoM, but he is not a DE. Neri From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 23:31:29 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 23:31:29 -0000 Subject: Movie PoA Foreshadows Books 6 & 7 (other than Lupin-related) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105542 mhbobbin wrote: Any other ideas on foreshadowing that might have inadvertently been revealed in film that JKR is referring to? > Katie responded: I can't add much to your other ideas, I'm afraid, but one more possibility: what about Sirius appearing in the crystal ball? I don't remember that happening in the books (I could be wrong, though, as usual.) Foreshadowing of the mirror, perhaps? Carol notes: In the book, it's Trelawney who sees the Grim, not Hermione, as in the film: "'My dear,' Professor Trelawney's huge eyes opened dramatically, 'you have the Grim!'" (PoA Am. ed. 107) and it's Hermione who's skeptical ("*I* don't think it looks like a Grim," same page). I agree that, whoever sees it, it's actually Sirius. I also think that Trelawney can really see things in the crystal ball and the tea leaves, but she often misinterprets them, possibly because she's so afraid of really being a fraud. Carol From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sat Jul 10 23:52:05 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 23:52:05 -0000 Subject: Caradoc has the name for a HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105543 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "saraquel_omphale" wrote: > Hi, new to the list, but re the question of HBP, try taking a look at > http://www.bartleby.com/182/107.html for a very possible HBP. Note that > his father was a wizard and he is the son of King Arthur's neice, which > quite possibly makes him entitled to be called prince. He gets the > princess in the end, plus the intriguing bits about the snake ..... > maybe it's about time he came back from the dead. As someone else on > the list said - never trust JKR when there's no body to be found. Jen: Welcome! I'm very interested in what happened to Caradoc, too. >From reading the link you provided, it wouldn't be a stretch to say our Caradoc Dearborn might be hiding out just as Caradoc in the story hid out at a hermitage. Several people have posted that the significance of Caradoc might be his Welsh name, and possible link to the Potters and/or Godric's Hollow. I'm curious to see if he shows up again. Jen Reese From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Sun Jul 11 00:01:54 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 00:01:54 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle - Riddle murders In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105544 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meltowne" wrote: > > That is true but as DD pointed out, after Tom left School he > disappeared for a long time and went many different changes before > he came out calling him self LV. So he could have done it any time > between that period. > > I don't have the book here with me, but I think I recall something > about him being 16, but it could have been later. As for being > called LV, didn't Diary Riddle explain "I am Lord Voldemort" neing an > anagram to Harry? I assume me must have been about 16, because the story of the Riddles uses the same term used to describe the original Chamber of Secrets incident: "fifty years ago". I don't take that quite as literally as some do, who reason that if Tom Riddle was a 15-year old student 50 years before Book 3, then he must have been 16 years old when the incidents described in Book 4 took place, because it's one year later in the series. I take "fifty years ago" to be a bit of a vague indication of time; in normal parlance, it could mean somewhere between 48 and 53 years in the past. That's why I'm not perfectly sure about when Tom did what; there seems to have been a lot of important activity in his life about 50 years ago, but the sequence isn't perfectly clear. He could have killed his parents the year after he killed Myrtle, or even the same year, or perhaps several years later, when he'd left school. Wanda From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 00:56:22 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 00:56:22 -0000 Subject: DD's message to Hagrid and wand light (Was: Boggart/ Patronus Musings) In-Reply-To: <145.2d81ee46.2e1a32c5@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105545 Batchevra wrote: I would venture to guess that Dumbledore's patronus is a phoenix, I only have the GOF incident when he calls Hagrid to where Krum had been stunned and the figure was a silvery Phoenix shaped. Carol responds: Although I agree that DD's Patronus is probably a Phoenix (I also see a stong Phoenix/Gryffindor or Fawkes/Gryffindor connection), I don't recall the silvery light that shot from DD's wand as he summoned Hagrid being Phoenix-shaped. (I could be wrong here; if you have the quote handy, by all means supply it.) I did wonder, though, when I read that passage, what kind of spell DD could be casting since it didn't have any connection with Dementors and was definitely not a Patronus. What was the silver light and how did Hagrid know it was a summons? What was the spell he used (he cast it silently, as the more powerful wizards seems to do as often as not). I wonder if it's one of the ways the Order members communicate that don't involve the Floo network (mentioned near the end of OoP). I also wonder how Snape and Dumbledore communicated on the night of the MoM incident. Maybe we'll see more of this particular spell. A note here for what it's worth. We've seen several spells involving red or green light (also red and green sparks sent as signals), two spells (apparently) involving silver light, and one (the Phoenix song with the duelling wands--not sure whether that qualifies as a spell) involving golden light. Nothing so far involving blue or purple that I recall. In any case, the color of the light has to be limited by the range of available colors: rainbow shades (red through purple or violet) with the addition of silver (or white) and gold. We've come to associate green light with AK, but surely other spells produce green light? And red doesn't necessarily mean Stupefy. (Isn't Crucio also red?) What's my point? I'm not sure. Just that I'm wondering whether the colors have any significance. Certainly we can't say that green is evil and silver is good or anything that simple. (That would be ironic, anyway, since the Slytherin serpent is silver but their banner is green.) Anyone remember the color, if any, that comes out of the wand when Fake!Moody Imperios the kids? And does anyone think that the color of the light has any significance? Carol From meltowne at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 01:00:02 2004 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 01:00:02 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle - Riddle murders In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105546 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "halli" wrote: > I was always under the impression, from Aunt Petunia's outburst in the hut on the rock, that the underage wizard restrictions came after Lily left school, that and if Lily wasn't allowed to use magic during the holidays then Harry wouldn't either, and she would definently mention this to Vernon when they were all terrified of waking up as bats in the second book. Me: I recall a comment that Dumbledore didn't agree with the restriction, though I don't recall when it was put into place. It did sound like it was after James & Lily were at school - I got the impression Fudge was involved in making that decision. Unfortunately I can't recall which book, let alone where in the book it was mentioned. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 01:08:20 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 01:08:20 -0000 Subject: Getting to Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <87.feb6c2f.2e1a4148@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105547 I (Carol) wrote: What I wonder is how the pureblood kids get their trunks to and from King's Cross Station. Even if they're old enough to apparate, you can't apparate with a trunk (and in many cases, a pet as well). I don't think you can get to King's Cross using Floo Powder, either, as there aren't any fireplaces there even if you could "Floo" with a trunk. And you can't ride a broom in broad daylight with a trunk hanging from it without calling attention to yourself (the escort at the beginning of OoP strikes me as one of the most improbable scenes in any of the books) Melissa responded: > Oh I dunno. . if you fly high enough on a moonless night you might not call any attention to yourself. As long as you stayed out of major flight paths. Carol again: But these kids have trunks, and in some cases, pets. Also first-years aren't allowed broomsticks, and we don't see the parents' broomsticks. Most if not all of them disapparate asfter the kids are on the Hogwarts Express. We don't hear anything about authorized portkeys (though maybe that's because Harry hasn't used one) and I doubt that Kings Cross is connected to the Floo Network. And are all those pureblood parents, even the Malfoys, trying to masquerade as Muggles? If they dress like Snape, or even like Fudge, with his green bowler hat and pinstriped cloak, they'll call attention to themselves. Carol, who should probably just willingly suspend her disbelief and stop worrying about details From suzchiles at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 01:10:11 2004 From: suzchiles at yahoo.com (Suzanne Chiles) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:10:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dobby's Gift Message-ID: <20040711011011.44874.qmail@web40608.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105548 I continue to ponder the significance of Dobby's Christmas gift to Harry in the Order of the Phoenix, as described in Chapter 23, Christmas on the Closed Ward: " ... And Dobby a truly dreadful painting that Harry suspected had been done by the elf himself." Fred sees the painting: " 'What's that supposed to be, anyway"' asked Fred, squinting at Dobby's painting. 'Looks like a gibbon with two black eyes.' 'It's Harry!' said George, pointing at the back of the picture, 'says so on the back.' " When I recently reread OoTP, this exchange sent chills down my back. There are so many portraits of dead wizards inhabited in some sense by the wizards themselves, even though they are quite dead. These wizard portraits are quite important in this book. Given the mostly unknown but powerful magical abilities of house elves, I cannot help but think that Harry may indeed die and will wind up inhabiting Dobby's crude portrait. Please oh please, prove me wrong! Suzanne __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 01:22:36 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 01:22:36 -0000 Subject: Sirius revisited--emotional maturity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105549 > Valky: > 2 Although it fits nicely with the probability that Sirius is > unhappy to be losing his guests at the end of Christmas, it also > fits, curiously, that he becomes once again hotheaded and recklessly > behaved when Kreacher returns. > > 3 We are treated to, in a previous chapter, an insight into the uses > of scurvy grass, lovage and sneezewort, which I will quote for you: > > "These plantes are efficacious in the inflaming of the braine, and > are therefore much used in Confusing and befuddlement Draughts, > where the wizard is desirous of producing hot-headedness and > recklessness ...." Carol responds: But note the key word "wizard." We have no indication that House Elves can brew potions and Sirius would certainly be suspicious if he caught Kreacher anywhere near a cauldron, not to mention that it would be hard for Kreacher to obtain these plants and Sirius would be highly unlikely to eat or drink anything that Kreacher gave him. Also, the effects of most potions don't appear to be long-lasting--at least the wolfbane and polyjuice potions are temporary. I imagine the effects of a befuddlement draft would also be fleeting. I think that Sirius' temperament, environment, and circumstances are sufficient to explain any shifts in his mood and behavior in OoP. Think what he was like in PoA. Without his friends and trapped in that terrible house, he's slipping back in that direction. Expecting a stable Sirius is like expecting a saintly Draco. It's not going to happen. Carol From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sun Jul 11 01:30:45 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 01:30:45 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105550 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "huntergreen_3" wrote: > Valky wrote: > But James, who although he dislikes Snape, doesn't really want to > put the boys life at risk, would rather be content to, in his own > dunderhead act before he thinks way, demonstrate to Snape that Dark > magic is no substitute for the talent of a wizard like him. > So he uses silly hexes. > I am only pointing out that James drew the line at killing or > actually physically harming him but it is likely, very likely that > Snape didn't. > HunterGreen: > But as Del said, their *intentions* were entirely different. Had they encountered each other in the hallway and the attack started from both ends at the same time, I could see your point, but that wasn't how it was at all. Valky: I beg to differ Dear Hunter, James and Sirius approached Snape with a single question, a baiting one apparently, but indeed just a question. Snape reached for his wand to engage in battle face to face. James outdrew him. The attack *started* from both ends at the same time. The ensuing events have little to do with that. Huntergreen: Snape was *alone* sitting outside going over his paper, (deep in thought, actually), when James and Sirius attack him *first*. Yes, Snape goes for his wand, but why shouldn't he? Valky: James wand was not drawn before Snape reached for his. Again I reply James outdrew Snape. James has every right to cast the first spell, he won the draw. A question, despite its grating nature, does not constitute a magical attack in a duel. Its just slanging. Thats it. If that's the *first* attack that your referring to then it has nothing to do with duelling at all. Snape is of course within his right to reply with his exceptional wit ............. ;D Huntergreen: > Then their actions > are certainly concerning, first of all its two against one, (more > than that if you count they have Lupin and Peter in the sidelines > which may or may not have meant something to Snape), Valky: Look deeper Huntergreen. It is always James against Snape. Sirius laughs at James victory in disarming Snape so majestically. Snape dives for his wand again but Sirius throws the Impedimenta Jinx. He doesn't want Snape to get his wand back, he's not here to fight he's here to pick Snape apart psychologically with *words*. It's not right, I know, but to Sirius its a salt rubbing for his psychological wound. He wants to stand over someone like Snape and argue with them. He's obsessed with fighting his inner demons, and he projects them onto Snape. James doesn't mind helping because Snapes a bit dangerous, so if he takes him on it's an adventure. The duel is James and Snape, the rest is Sirius. Pardon the pun. :D Huntergreen: > Thus Snape is disarmed, AND unable to move and that's > when they really get into teasing him, when he can't possible > retaliate. How is that any better than hitting someone from behind? IMO, hitting someone with a spell (in this case 'scourgify') when they can't possibly defend themself is the same as hitting them from behind. Valky: Irritating this bit. Well, you see that's an overreaction. James is reacting to the obscenities from Snapes mouth. It's not better than hitting someone from behind, it's just different. The bullying objective comes into play here, and this is the one line that can really turn you off James. I wish I knew how far he would have gone with that stupidity if Lily hadn't interjected right then. You see, this is the difficult part. They've gone too far here, and there's no answering it. So far they had managed to disarm Snape one on one. James had allowed Sirius to vent on him and then..... .....well Snape never backed down. Not that they ever should have expected him too, but they did. Snape instead swears at them, curses and hexes and such that James gets huffy, as in "Hey I just bested you in battle dude, show a little respect for your superiors.". So stupidity is rife for a moment... then the sun comes up and Lily shines really bright. Aside: I said once that the lesson for Harry from his mother was here. Lily didn't really hate James, she probably even agreed just a little with his choice of opponent. But she stood up for what she believed in, even to her own detriment that she had to call a spade a spade even though she really kinda liked the guy that was doing it. Huntergreen: > As for the 'deadliness' of Snape's spell, that's all conjecture. We don't know what it was. For all we know it was a particularily > powerful missed Stupify or Expelliarmus, both which would have been acceptable in this situation. It *could* have been worse, but we don't know either way. However, just because Snape was trying to > injur James and James wasn't trying to injur him, doesn't make James any better than Snape. Valky: Isn't it funny that we can only answer conjecture about Snape with more darn conjecture. Wouldn't we just love to know exactly what was going on with that boy. Seriously though, I doubt it. I see distinct parallels between the way Snape fights in COS and the way James fights in the pensieve. And between the way Sirius talks in the pensieve and the way Snape talks in all the books since we've seen him, except in the pensieve. Where is the dry wit and drips of sarcasm from super intellectual surprisingly courageous Snape in the pensieve? Snape learned James' way sometime between the pensieve scene and the current day, he wasn't using it then. Snape adopted Sirius' ways sometime between then and now, also. The boy in the pensieve scene was a dangerous fellow, of this I am absolutely certain. His weapon of choice is the one he issues from his wand and it is as fierce and devilish as the whip of his tongue as an adult, his future weapon of choice. Huntergreen: James was with three friends, he certainly wasn't in any danger. Snape, on the other hand, (at least from his own perception), was. The nature of the hexes James and Sirius were using could have easily escalated to something dangerous (as they nearly do, when they use Scourgify and Snape begins choking). > > Valky: Snape only wants James head on a platter. He even ignores Sirius, despite Sirius best efforts to get his attention. James was never in any danger because he was faster than Snape. The three friends were not really of any consequence, and Snape knew that. It was between him and James in his mind, if you look closely at the passage you will see Snape never took his eyes off his one and only enemy. There is Snapes mind for you clear as crystal in canon. We can pretty much reject any speculation of the alternate without prejudice. > >>Snape, after all, is part of a Slytherin Racial Prejudice Gang.<< > Huntergreen: > But is he at this point? We know a few of the death-eaters were older than Snape/James/Sirius/Peter/Lupin, perhaps his "gang" had already graduated. In any case, if he did have a gang, at this point none of them are around so it doesn't really matter. > Valky: What matters, in the context of my statement, is that Snape IS an example, because he is known for his involvement in this part of the WW. > Del continues: > > James was trying to *humiliate* Snape, not to necessarily hurt him. That's why he had him fall, he had him hung upside-down, and he had his mouth washed with soap. He was trying to make people *laugh* at Snape, not pity him. > > Valky: > >>Snape was an EXAMPLE. > James and Sirius took the duty upon themselves in their stupid > teenage pride, in their overwrought cause to MAKE PEOPLE LAUGH AT > THE DARK ARTS AND RACIAL PREJUDICE!!!<< > > HunterGreen: > I'm sorry, I just don't buy that. Maybe if Snape had been doing > something at the time and they strode forward and made an example of his behavior, but at that moment Snape had been minding his own > business, and wasn't bothering anyone. Sirius was *bored*, and James and him were trying to have a laugh. Yes, Snape was into the dark arts and was prejudice, but is putting him upside down and all that really going to change his attitude? Or, for that matter, change the attitude of any passing Slytherins? Valky: I think I answered all these questions already. So I will surmise for you. James baited Snape to challenge him. This is how he answered Sirius' boredom. He said with his actions; I'll take on this agro wizard over here, because he likes to hurt me, so he will, that should entertain you. Sirius got excited because his best mate was waltzing into mortal danger again, just for fun. They got Snape in a magical headlock and Sirius tried really hard to get Snapes attention. He wanted to vent angry words on Snape. But Snape stared at James, he cursed and hissed at James, he loathed James with all his being and ignored Sirius. James knew that Sirius had his own reason for wanting to get Snapes attention, Snape knew what that reason was too. But Snape was truly only concerned with his rivalry with James. James lost his cool at the affront. (swearing directed at him and ignorance directed at his most respected friend.) Lily stepped in and her part in the event is monumental to her goodness. Huntergreen: If anything, James and Sirius are setting rather poor examples of what 'non-pure-blood-fanatic-dark-arts-loving' wizards are like. > Valky: Yes I agree with this statement. But given the danger involved with approaching a boy like Snape, I believe they thought they were doing a pretty good job of it. > Del: > > Snape, on the other hand, was trying to win what he considered to > be a classic wizard duel. The best and fastest way is to disable your opponent, hence the physically harming curse. > > Valky: > >>From Behind? > Still makes him less than noble in his intentions.<< > > HunterGreen: > Who said he was trying to be noble? He was attacked, he attacked > back, it seems rather straightforward to me. > Valky: But as an adult he has decided that the best and fastest way is to disarm your opponent, as James does. see COS The Duelling Club. In the end even Snape disagrees with you Del and agrees with James. > Del: > > And I sure don't think that humiliating someone is *noble*.< > > Valky: > >>Well I didn't really mean that *it* was noble. > I am sure I said that *James* was already noble. > The nobility is behind the action. > He *was* an 'idiot'. > With a belief in something noble and a noble heart and spirit. > He didn't have to change that. > Snape on the other hand.....?<< > > > HunterGreen: > Are you asking about 15-year-old Snape or adult Snape? Valky: 15 year old Snape of course, we are talking about the pensieve scene. Huntergreen: > As for teenage Snape, well, considering that he came to school with all those ideas of dark magic, who's to say he wasn't raised that way? (and yes, I know Sirius was too, but Sirius was sorted into Gryffindor, and thus had someone else to make an impression on him). He was taught to behave that way, so hating muggle-borns was "right" and "noble" for him. Clearly, he had it the wrong way around, but who taught him the right way? Valky: Well Sirius really wanted to but he just couldn't get Snapes attention you see........ Huntergreen : Dumbledore not punishing Sirius seriously enough > (in Snape's opionion) after the > prank incident certainly didn't help. Valky: It is our choices that make us what we are. DD leaves people to their bad choices. Including Snape choosing to enter the Shreiking Shack despite, that he knew it was dangerous, and Sirius choice to send him there. You see DD cannot seduce young Snape to the side of good with a good lashing of Sirius for Snapes gratification. Then it wouldn't be the side that DD is on would it? My point is it could never have helped Snape if he did, it would just have created another temptation in Snapes path, he didn't need more temptation. Huntergreen: Also, if he really did have a "gang of Slytherins", those might have been his only friends (in the pensieve scene its noted that he's not very popular), so if the only students who were actually nice to him were other young death eaters, from his perception he could get the idea that that was the way to be. Hating muggle-borns, thus, was as noble to him as hating people who hated muggle-borns was to James. > Actually I am inclined to see Snapes first day at Hogwarts in a very similar way to Hermione and Harry's ie the sorting hat says...... hmmm now where shall I put you..... You would do well in Gryffindor... very brave you are.... Valky Who took a full hour just writing her reply to this post. WOW! HUNTER! From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 01:36:19 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 01:36:19 -0000 Subject: Getting to Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105551 Carol wrote: And you can't ride a broom in broad daylight with a trunk hanging from it without calling attention to yourself (the escort at the beginning of OoP strikes me as one of the most improbable scenes in any of the books) > | [Melissa]: Oh I dunno. . if you fly high enough on a moonless night you might not call any attention to yourself. As long as you stayed out of major flight paths. [Lee]: I agree, and I'm sure Moody had their route planned. On top of that, he had that disillusionment charm going, definitely on Harry, possibly others had some form of it on either themselves or their brooms. > They were obviously flying very high for it to be so cold... temperature drops about 10 degrees every thousand feet, give or take. > Carol again: Lee, you're responding to the snipped post. The part about the Advance Guard is just an aside. My concern is how the pureblood kids and their parents get to Kings Cross with trunks and pets. I won't say any more because it would just repeat previous posts, but I've noticed that dutiful snipping (my own included) tends to cause main points to be lost or obscured. I suppose we should really go up thread to find the context of what we're responding to, but on a list like this one, who has the time? At any rate, we all need to be careful to indicate that a post has been snipped and that we're responding to a part, not the whole. Not complaining or blaming you, just noting that the OoP scene wasn't my main concern. Carol From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Jul 11 01:44:22 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 01:44:22 -0000 Subject: Boggart/ Patronus Musings - Quote Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105552 > > Carol wrote: > > snip. > > > > As for Lupin, who of course isn't an animagus and certainly > wouldn't have a werewolf Patronus, I think we don't see his Patronus because he can't quite cast one, DADA instructor or not. All we see on both his attempts is a bright light from his wand. > > > Alla: > > I disagree. I think Lupin's Patronus is just fine. ;) I believe it is kept secret from us for plot reasons. Lupin's Patronus was strong > enough after all to scare off Dementor on the train. >By the way, we don't see Dumbledore's patronus either, when he >scares off dementos at the match. Potioncat: Well, I'd say we don't know whether he can cast a corporal partonus or not. He does say it is difficult. Does he say some wizards can't do it? But it could just as easily be a plot device. In which case, I'd have to wonder what it might be that telling us would somehow give something away......Mark Evans prevents me from speculating at this time. > > > Carol: > > Not particularly good with potions or he wouldn't rely on Snape, >not as good as his friends at Transfiguration or he wouldn't have >to study for the O.W.L., so in his year as DADA instructor he >teaches about Dark creatures. (I can see why his interests might >lie in that direction, poor man, and I suppose the subject is more >appropriate for third years than defensive spells, but I'm guessing he taught the same thing in all his classes regardless of level.) Potioncat: 1. If we assume he is telling the truth that Wolfsbane is a difficult potion and that Snape is a powerful potion maker, then it does not speak poorly of Lupin that he cannot make the potion. (Just like my neighbor might ask me a question about a medical issue and I might ask him about home-repair.) Or of course, if it is ESE! Lupin, he is not telling the truth about his ability to make the potion. BTW, I wonder who is making it for him now? 2. We've been told by McGonagall and Lupin (thank you Kneasy) that Black and Potter were the two brightest students of that year- group. So Lupin's having to study when they did not does not mean he is not a powerful wizard. I would think Harry would have to study more than Hermione for a test, although he is more likely the more powerful wizard. 3. Well, I wish I knew what the DADA cirriculum ought to be. I'd even be happy knowing the MoM-prefered course of study. IIRC, Quirrell was teaching creatures, as was Lockhart and Lupin. When Snape fills in for Lupin, he appears to believe that knowing dark creachers is part of the course. Of course, it may have served his purpose to pretend so. Crouch!Moody is the first one we see teaching Defensive Spells, and we've had a long thread about whether he really should have been teaching what he taught. And, it appears that all the DADA teachers have taught the same thing to all levels. But that may be a misunderstanding on our part. Crouch!Moody says that he is teaching the 4th years what he should be teaching at 6th year level. But we do not know if he is telling the truth. Carol: Despite his involvement in making the map and > > his knowledge of the theoretical aspects of casting a Patronus, I > > don't think Lupin is a particularly powerful wizard. Pretty good > with boggarts, though, and a nice guy if you ignore his many sins of omission--things he should have done but didn't (but I've already > > listed them in a previous post). Potioncat: I didn't get that feeling at all. Could you provide the canon that makes you think that? He does well at Boggarts. And he does well against at least one Dementor. In fact, he stands up to it pretty well, I think. > > > > > Alla: > >snip> > I think he is a very good DADA instructor. Better than Snape , > anyways. :o) Potioncat: Lupin has better teaching skills. Snape is better at protecting students. Potioncat From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Jul 11 01:51:07 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 01:51:07 -0000 Subject: Goyle was not at MOM and is not in Azkaban In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105553 > Amber: > > Delurking for a brief moment to say that there is an EXCELLENT analysis on > Steve Van der Ark's site about the Death Eaters in the DoM, and who was where > when. Potioncat: Could you give us a link to that, or a name for the site? Do you mean the Lexicon? I'd like to read it. The whole battle was a big confusing mess for me! From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Jul 11 02:01:10 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 02:01:10 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105554 > vmonte responds: > > I agree with you Alla. I read a JKR interview where someone asked > why DD hired Snape to teach. JKR said something like: 'he felt that > one of life's lessons are that you sometimes have to deal with people > like Snape, and he felt that they could learn something from him > (I'm really paraphrasing). > snip. > > Anyway, there is a famous line in it: Keep your friends close, but > your enemies closer. If DD is in fact a strategist he may have > Snape at the school so that he can keep an eye on him, and so that > the children can learn something from him. How does a DE think? > Act? What are their weaknesses? Potioncat: I've sometimes wondered if DD expects Snape to betray him, thus "I trust Snape." that is to betray me. And he is keeping his close to watch him. (I hope not.) vmonte: I also hope that DD doesn't think that Snape will lay down his life > for Harry, because I really doubt it. > > I still like Snape as character. I just am glad I don't know him > personally. > Potioncat: I come from it differently. Saying up front, this is my interpretation. I think DD is well aware of Snape's faults but sees his virtues/strengths as well. DD knows Snape has a miserable personality, but knows he has a vast knowledge that he can teach to the students and knows that he will lay down his life to protect them. I think Snape went to the Shrieking Shack to protect the students not for revenge. (Of course, he might have enjoyed revenge.) So I believe DD tolerates Snape's behavior. I'm not sure if that is what JKR is saying, but for the moment that is what I think. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 02:06:05 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 02:06:05 -0000 Subject: Human's Emotions vs. Dogs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105555 Asian_lovr2 (Steve) wrote: This is how I picture a wizard in animagus form. The human mind and the instinctive animal mind are like a rider and a horse. The rider or human mind is long for the ride unless circumstances dictate otherwise. This 'along for the ride' allows the human mind to stay in the background undetected by external forces when the situation demands it. Now when human danger is near, or the animal needs to act with calculated stealth, the human mind and instinctive mind work together. At other times, it more important for the human mind to be in control. For example, in areas of language, understanding what bad wizards are saying, although, reading the demeanor and body language would be important too, and in the latter case, the instinct and intellect would again work together. Another example of when the human must dominate is when they/it/he needs to form and carry out a complex plan of action. In the example in the book of Sirius getting past the dementors in dog form, I think Sirius let his human mind fall to the background. The instinctive Dog part of him knew the objective, and was able to act on that basic information to get himself out of the prison. across a large expanse of water, and back on to the main land. Again, pure speculation, no canon support, but it seems like a reasonable analogy. I have to believe that an animagus form serves more purpose the just a disguise. If this is true, then the animagus has the additional power to draw on the resources that are unique to the animal in which it transform. There are times when being able to smell a Death Eater from a mile away could be a definite advantage. Carol responds: We can also consider Peter/Scabbers, who generally behaves as a rat in the first two books, once seeming to enjoy the smell of Christmas dinner but otherwise mostly sleeping. In PoA he seems (on a first reading) merely to fear Crookshanks as any rat would fear any cat. On a second reading we realize that he started behaving oddly and looking "off color" in Egypt, before Crookshanks came into the story. Clearly Scabbers, even in rat form, has heard news of Sirius' escape and knows quite well that his human self is in danger of exposure or even death. The fear of Crookshanks may be fear of being eaten, but it's possible that Peter/Scabbers senses that Crookshanks is part Kneazel. Crookshanks (admittedly not an animagus) understands human speech and is able to communicate somehow with Sirius/Padfoot. Can he do the same with Scabbers? And another thought. Admittedly possession is not the same as transformation, but we have an example of a human mind (Voldemort's as perceived by Harry) inside the body of a snake (Nagini?). The senses and sensations are those of the snake, as is the desire to strike. The desire to hold back because there's important work to do is Voldemort's. The person inside the snake doesn't perceive them as belonging to different parts of the mind, the human and animal levels; he feels that he *is* the snake, but the primitive animal desire conflicts with the human one. When the man (Mr. Weasley) wakes up and becomes a threat, the desires merge and Voldemort/Nagini strikes with the only available weapon, the snake's fangs. I imagine that the transformation into an animal would produce a similar state of mind. In Sirius' case, being seems to produce fewer worries and no inhibitions. He can frolic around and chase his tail to entertain Harry (and even as a man, he now eats like a dog, at least in GoF). OTOH, when he puts his paws on Harry's shoulders on Platform 9 3/4 in OoP, Mrs. Weasley warns him to act more like a dog. Also, he stands on his hind legs to open a door in GoF. So clearly he knows he's really a man and presumably he knows, as Padfoot, that his mission is to find Lupin and "the old crowd" (I won't get into the problems that presents given that all except Lupin think he's a murderer). In general, I think JKR's depiction of the animagi is probably not entirely consistent, but Steve's explanation works for me: The human consciousness is present but suppressed unless it's needed. Hard to understand how even Peter Pettigrew could have lived twelve years as a rat if that's not the case. Carol From jmmears at comcast.net Sun Jul 11 02:09:45 2004 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 02:09:45 -0000 Subject: R & H - More in common than meets the eye (was Hermione's reaction) In-Reply-To: <20040710151551.91221.qmail@web25301.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105556 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, udder_pen_dragon wrote: > Let me start by saying that I am an 'obselete old dingbat' (63 year old male). > > If ever a girl had said to me that I was the most insensitive prat she had ever had the misfortune to meet and that I had the emotional range of a teaspoon, inside two minutes; I would have no illusions as to how much she liked me. Well, don't feel too bad . Ron and Harry probably don't have any idea why she tears into Ron so very harshly either. Hint: such disproportionate anger usually indicates extreme frustration. After all, Ron's not even talking about Hermione. He's talking about Cho. The fact that Hermione takes what he says about another girl so personally (just like she did when Ron talks about asking someone other than Hermione to the Yule ball) doesn't suggest that she's trying to tell Ron she's not interested in him. Quite the opposite, IMO. Udder PD continues: > Ron and Hermione fight because they are almost total opposites, without Harry as the catalyst I doubt they would ever talk to each other socialy. Can you really imagine Hermione staying home to cook for Ron then sitting meekly listening while he babbled on about Quidditch? I am digressing sorry. I'm afraid that I don't agree about Ron and Hermione being total opposites. Yes, on a superficial level, they can appear to be concering things like schoolwork, Quidditch, and house-elf liberation, but their conflicts arise from the fact that they have so very much in common. Both are deeply insecure (although this insecurity manifests itself differently in each of them), both of them are very emotional, and they are, of course, both very deeply loyal to their friends. I think that they are actually very much alike. The fact that they seem to enjoy spending a fair bit of time together apart from Harry seems to show that they are pretty good friends. Surely you aren't suggesting that they spend all their time talking about him. I mean, I do love Harry but he's not all *that* interesting :-). And where did you ever get the idea that Ron would ever expect Hermione to stay home and cook for him, let alone sit *meekly*? Jo Serenadust, who has absolutely NOT written a shipping post From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 02:20:56 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 02:20:56 -0000 Subject: Who's the third dead death eater??? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105557 Checking something in the graveyard scene (GoF, Ch. 33) I just came across something I've missed before: The largest gap in the DEs circle includes 3 empty places, where LV says should have stood three DEs who are "dead in my service". OK, I know two of the DEs he means: Rosier and Wilkes. But who's the third? Am I missing someone obvious? He can't be meaning Regulus Black, right? An unaccounted DE is a very suspicious thing, even (or especially) if he's supposed to be dead. Neri From srobles at caribe.net Sun Jul 11 02:25:16 2004 From: srobles at caribe.net (anasazi_pr) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 02:25:16 -0000 Subject: Second Task Choice (was: Emotional Intimacy in the HP stories...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105558 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jason" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "anasazi_pr" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "harp66" wrote: > > > Is the relationship between Harry and Ron a good model of teenage > > > male friendship? In GoF we learn that Ron is the person who means > > > most to Harry. Is that reciprocated? > > > > > > > Actually, I believe that both Ron and Hermione mean the same to > > Harry. I think the second task was chosen based on who would he > miss > > the most (I don't have the book with me, but I think the puzzle > > said "miss" specifically). > > > > There could be two reasons why he chose Ron over Hermione: > > > > a. Having just gotten over a row with Ron that lasted for a month, > > Harry had a very fresh memory of what it would be like to lose Ron > > and how much he would miss him. > > > > b. Krum got to choose first. And we all know he chose Hermione. > > > > I like to believe is the second one, because I'd like to thin that > > he'd miss both Ron and Hermione the same (seems to fit with the > trio > > interaction presented in OoTP). > > > > Just my two knuts, > > Anasazi > > -who's anxious that she's going to write the wrong thing now that > > she's unmoderated- > > > Perhaps I missed a sentence or two in GoF, or its just been so long > since I've read it straight through, but I dont ever remember Harry > choosing Ron. Seems to me Ron was chosen for him. > > I can see the powers that chose saying, "well, Krum hasn't brought > anyone with him and he seems to be pretty fond of Hermy so lets pair > them up and go ahead and pair up Potter and Weasly." > > Jason Hi, Jason. I found my copy of GoF. This is what the egg said: "Come seek us where our voices sound, We cannot sing above the ground, And while you re searching, ponder this: We've taken what you'll sorely miss, An hour long you'll have to look, And to recover what we took, But past an hour- the prospect's black, Too late, it's gone, it wont come back" And this is what Dobby said when he woke up Harry that morning. "What?" Harry gasped. "They've got. . . they've got Ron?" "The thing Harry Potter will miss most, sir!" squeaked Dobby. So it seems that, though the choice was made for Harry by the Powers That Be, Harry's feelings were the determining factor in the choice. It must have been that way too with the other champions, including Krum's choice of Hermione. Anasazi From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 02:38:27 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 02:38:27 -0000 Subject: Peter's rat form In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105559 Jen wrote: If JKR tells me Pettigrew turns into a rat when he transforms, then we find out he ratted out his friends, that's enough information for me to (snip) wonder why they never suspected Pettigrew was the spy? Catlady responded: They probably assumed that Peter's rat form reflected the reality of rats rather than the metaphor of rats. Pets rats (so I have been assured by people who keep them) are clean and intelligent and friendly and loving. Carol adds: Good point. Also, both Percy and Ron cared enough for scruffy, fat, lazy Scabbers to keep him as a pet. Ron, at least, clearly loved him. Of course, neither of them knew he was an animagus, but if Scabbers wasn't repugnant to the Weasley children, it's unlikely that Wormtail (whose nickname is only descriptive of a rat's naked tail) was repugnant to his fellow Marauders. (They weren't thinking of the metaphorical implications of "worm," either, I'm sure--and it's a safe bet that they hadn't read LOTR and didn't associate Wormtail with Grima Wormtongue, as I can't help doing!) Carol, who knows that "worm" in "Wormtongue" means "snake," but sees that as more applicable to PP than the earthworm of "Wormtail," anyway From rebekarg at yahoo.com.br Sat Jul 10 22:29:07 2004 From: rebekarg at yahoo.com.br (=?iso-8859-1?q?Rebeka=20Gomes?=) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 19:29:07 -0300 (ART) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Emotional Intimacy in the HP stories (not necessarily romantic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040710222907.4037.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105560 --- harp66 escreveu: --------------------------------- Is the relationship between Harry and Ron a good model of teenage male friendship? In GoF we learn that Ron is the person who means most to Harry. Is that reciprocated? And why don't they discuss girls? And Hermione. What are community members' thoughts on the way her friendship with Ron/Harry is depicted in terms of sharing herself with them emotionally? Shared adventures aside, how deep is their relationship? And why isn't she shown to have female intimates? Is this a flaw in the stories? >> Rebeka: I think the answer for this would be a simple "it's not so important for the plot" comment. (Or an annoying "I can't tell you without ruining the plot" trademark by JKR :)) As for me, it's logical that Harry feels himself more attached emotionally to Ron than Hermione; first, both boys befriended since the very beginning; they are male, so Ron tends to 'understand' better male things like quidditch, and other things. The story flows from Harry's POV, so it's again logical that we don't see Hermione talking to her female roommates, but Jo already hinted her girl friends, there are mentions of her being acquainted to Lavander, Ginny, and I think Parvati too. And it's not like they don't talk about girls, I mean, how the hell did Hermione know about Harry's love interest on Chang in OOTP? It's just that Rowling can't (unfortunately) put every little detail in her books (I wish... :() As for Hermione's, I don't think she's the type of girl who sits and talks openly about her feelings (especially when all the signs are pointing for one of them). ===== ~Rebeka _______________________________________________________ Yahoo! Mail agora com 100MB, anti-spam e antivrus grtis! http://br.info.mail.yahoo.com/ From neil.zoe.collishaw at ntlworld.com Sat Jul 10 23:08:26 2004 From: neil.zoe.collishaw at ntlworld.com (zoe0coll) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 23:08:26 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle - Riddle murders In-Reply-To: <20040710144325.8031.qmail@web25105.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105561 > Wanda Sherratt wrote: > > How old was Tom Riddle when the Riddles were murdered? > I think we can quite easily work out Tom Riddle's age when he murdered his parternal family, if we take the info in the canon as completely accurate. We know that fifty years before COS Tom Riddle was 16 - he says (sorry can't find my book) something like "I preserved my 16 year old self (in the diary). GOF is 2 years after COS and in the opening chapter it states "fifty years before..... to find all three Riddles dead (pg 7 Uk ed - Bloomsbury) therefore in Cos 50 yrs ago Tom is 16 and 2 years later in GOF 50 yrs ago tom is 18. This means he would have just left school, or at least been in his final year at hogwarts, whichever, he would be of age to use magic outside of school. Zoe C From mhbobbin at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 23:11:54 2004 From: mhbobbin at yahoo.com (mhbobbin) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 23:11:54 -0000 Subject: PoA Question (foreshadowing Books 6 & 7) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105562 In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cathy Drolet" wrote: > I hope the list-elves will indulge me here for a moment. I have a question about the PoA movie but only as it relates to the books and what we have been talking about the last few days about foreshadowing. > snip snip> > I thought Crookshanks' role was severely reduced in PoA movie and I felt he had a stronger role in that book, very imporant role what we didn't really get to see in the movie, and I also think old Crookshanks is going to have another role to play, yet. > snip snip > Also, in the book, we learned a lot of, what I thought, was relevant and important info during the Shrieking Shack chapters that never made it to the movie. Was this stuff not important to 'the rest of the story?' > snip snip > > So, do you think the stuff that has been left out, important things, mean they are not as important after all? > > Cathy - who has way too much time on her hands, obviously, if she sits and thinks about this stuff all day! > mhbobbin writes: As JKR gives the filmmakers some guidance, it is valid to try to divine where she's going in Books 6 & 7 from what is completely removed from the films and what is inserted. However, we probably should exercise some caution as our divination skills from these tea leaves are probably somewhat like Trelawney's. Or worse--Ron's. In addition, JKR has commented on "inadvertent" foreshadowing by Cuaron. And remember that the film pretty much completed the filming stage at the time of the release of Book 5. RE Crookshanks: The removal of all of Crookshanks' magical skills and communication with Padfoot may well mean, IMO, that Crookshanks is not going to play a large role in 6 & 7. Indeed, Crookshanks has pretty much slept through Books 4 & 5 already. Very disappointing. RE: Missing Exposition: The filmmakers have commented that the exposition about the Marauders, James' Patronus, etc. was "saved" to be revealed in a future film. I don't get their decision but I do believe that exposition can be added later, whereas if they eliminate a character's magic a la Crookshanks that speaks much louder to the rest of the story. So it's safe to conclude this background information is still important. Much has been made already about Remus talking about Lily on the bridge. In the book, he avoids talking to Harry about his friendship with James etc. until late in the story. Although some think that means there was a romantic triangle, I personally just believe that it reinforces that there are major mysteries about Remus not yet revealed through Book 5. I also think that the film's use of a Stonehenge-like set outside the bridge, completed before Book 5 with its subtle Stonehenge references, reinforces the idea that JKR is taking Harry to Stonehenge in Book 6 or 7. Lucius Malfoy's address is given in Book 5 as Wiltshire, where Stonehenge is located. What it means in JKR's world is yet to be revealed. And there have been many comments about what scenes she insisted keeping in Movies 1 & 2 and possible implications for the rest of the story. Unclear the degree to which it matters but until she finishes the books, we will all be trying to read what tea leaves are available. I hope she gets going. Mhbobbin ADMIN NOTE: If you decide to reply to this post, please be sure that your response relates to the HP *books*, not just the movies. If your response solely concerns the Prisoner of Azkaban *movie*, please send your post to our sister list, HPFGU-Movie, at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Movie/ Thanks! From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sun Jul 11 03:01:10 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 03:01:10 -0000 Subject: Dobby's Gift In-Reply-To: <20040711011011.44874.qmail@web40608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105563 Suzanne: > When I recently reread OoTP, this exchange sent chills > down my back. > There are so many portraits of dead wizards inhabited > in some sense by > the wizards themselves, even though they are quite > dead. These wizard > portraits are quite important in this book. Given the > mostly unknown but > powerful magical abilities of house elves, I cannot > help but think that > Harry may indeed die and will wind up inhabiting > Dobby's crude portrait. Jen: This was an interesting painting because 1) It's the only portrait we've seen so far that isn't moving & 2) We never find out anything about its history, like why Dobby is giving it to Harry or if it is indeed a painting of Harry. It seems like, after Dobby almost killed Harry of course, that he gives Harry very useful things: Gillyweed, bringing back Hedwig, introducing him to the Room of Requirement. Then we have the Snitch socks and the painting, which haven't proven useful...yet. JKR mentioned houselves have their own 'powerful magic'--it makes sense they might be able to weave magic into socks or paint it into a painting, offering the user protection or power of some sort. Jen Reese From happybean98 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 00:40:32 2004 From: happybean98 at yahoo.com (happybean98) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 00:40:32 -0000 Subject: Godric Gryffindor as Half Blood Prince? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105564 Sophierom wrote: But maybe the Half Blood Prince is a historical figure, > namely Godric Gryffindor? ALso, when it was mentioned that HBP was almost the title of > CoS, I began to wonder about Gryffindor's sword and how it helped > Harry save the day. Indeed, CoS seems to be a face off between > Slytherin (basilisk, Riddle) and Gryffindor (Fawkes, HP). > > Also, everything about Gryffindor (the colors, the sword, even Fawkes) (possibly Godric Gryffindor's bird? happybean98: I agree with your theory that Godric Gryffindor is the HBP. I voted in the poll and found that most people who responded agreed with your theory, (and mine) but had to really search to find a thread with all the supporting reasons. JKR's clue about the link being in CoS caused me to re-read that book and I picked up on the same clues you did about the significance of Harry defeating Riddle/Voldemort with: 1. Godric Gryffindor's hat, (the sorting hat)"'Twas Gryffindor who found the way, He whipped me off his head. The founders put some brains in me So I could choose instead," GoF p. 177 2. Godric Gryffindor's sword 3. Help from Fawkes, who has feathers that match Gryffindor's house colors, (red and gold)"A crimson bird the size of a swan had appeared...It had a glittering golden tail as long as a peacock's and gleaming golden talons...", CoS p.315 Sophierom: > There are plenty of holes in this theory. Number one would be, why > "half blood"? I don't know if there's any canon evidence to support > the idea that Gryffindor was pure blood or half blood. We do know > that Slytherin and Gryffindor came to disagree about something ... > perhaps it was blood related? Happybean98: Yes! The argument was blood related. "Slytherin wished to be more selective about the students admitted to Hogwarts. He believed that magical learning should be kept withing all-magic families...After a while there was a serious argument on the subject between Slytherin and Gryffindor, and Slytherin left the school." CoS p. 150 This doesn't prove that Gryffindor was a half blood, but it certainly suggests the possibility. If the sword, hat and pheonix are tied to Gryffindor, and they help Harry defeat Slytherin's basilisk, (and his heir), it makes me want to think that maybe Harry could be Gryffindor's heir. It would create a nice symmetry. Also the fact that Harry's parents lived in Godric's Hollow suggests there is a link between Godric Gryffindor and Harry's family. Sophierom: > Another big problem: so what if Gryffindor is the HBP? What happens in > Book 6 to make a dead founder become a major (or at least title) > character? Happybean98: I thought about this too. It is a problem that the founders lived over a thousand years ago, when Hogwarts was founded, (CoS p. 150). So the chances of Godric Gryffindor popping up again 1000 years later are slim unless... Godric Gryffindor IS Fawkes the Pheonix. If Gryffindor was a pheonix animagus, and continually dies and is reborn, it's possible that he is still alive as Fawkes and possibly could reassume his wizard form. ( I say possibly because I don't know if the immortality of his form as a pheonix would carry over if he took wizard form once again.) Other issues related to the significance of Fawkes include: The Order of the Phoenix being the title of the resistance movement against Voldemort, (Slytherin's heir) The feathers that make up Harry and Voldemort's wand both come from Fawkes's tail, "Harry's wand and Voldemort's wand share cores. Each of them contains a feather from the tail of the same phoenix. This phoenix, in fact, he added, and he pointed at the scarlet-and-gold bird, perching peacefully on Harry's knee", GoF p.697 All of these issues suggest to me that Fawkes has a significance that has not yet been revealed. I thought the case for Fawkes being the Animagus form of Gryffindor, and his home in the headmaster's office might mean he stayed around as a sort of steward for the school and helped all the headmasters, but this isn't true because Fawkes isn't present in Armando Dippet's office when Harry sees it through Riddle's diary. "Harry looked around the office. No Fawkes the phoenix- no whirring silver contraptions", CoS p. 243 Any thoughts? happybean98 From aandj at labyrinth.net.au Sun Jul 11 01:06:46 2004 From: aandj at labyrinth.net.au (Jocelyn Grunow) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:06:46 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Emotional Intimacy in the HP stories (not necessarily romantic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105565 on 11/7/2004 5:14 AM, harp66 at harp66 at yahoo.com wrote: > Is the relationship between Harry and Ron a good model of teenage > male friendship? Dunno. I'm a girl. >In GoF we learn that Ron is the person who means > most to Harry. Is that reciprocated? Harry is pretty important to Ron, but Ron also has other people in his life. Would Harry be more important to him than his father, mother, Hermione? Who knows. He is definitely up there in the top 5 though. >And why don't they discuss girls? There was a thread not long ago about this. I was convinced by the propositions that: (a) They're still more interested in Quiddich than girls (give it another year), and (b) They're BUSY I might add though (c) They're British! I think that even today the British culture is more reticent about emotions and less inclined to sexualise all boy-girl friendships than Americans. > And Hermione. What are community members' thoughts on the way her > friendship with Ron/Harry is depicted in terms of sharing herself > with them emotionally? See points a & c. I think she is very sensible in that she shares as much of herself as the boys feel comfortable with, but keeps the rest for girl-talk. >Shared adventures aside, how deep is their > relationship? It is founded on trust in the face of danger from Day 1. They don't have to talk about it for it to be deep. >And why isn't she shown to have female intimates? Is > this a flaw in the stories? The stories focus on Harry, but there are revealing glimpses of Hermione's life with girls. We tend to assume that if she is not with the boys she is in the library. So do the boys - but they are wrong. Hermione is good friends with Ginny (see OotP), and in my opinion that offhand remark after Harry kisses Cho is because the GIRLS know all about what Cho thinks. They know Cho's emotional state and what she feels about both Cedric and Harry. Hermione wouldn't consider it appropriate to tell Harry what Cho feels, but Cho has doubtless told her best friends everything, and Hermione would keep her ears open for gossip on this topic. Jocelyn From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Jul 11 03:03:36 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 03:03:36 -0000 Subject: DE in the DoM In-Reply-To: <000a01c46678$7edfa070$36c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105566 Cathy wrote: snip > Harry had heard Macnair's voice in PoA although only a few words, perhaps not enough to recognize it in another, panic filled moment. We know Macnair is around later in the Death Chamber, anyway so he couldn't have gone through the bell jar. Harry should recognize Crabbe's voice from the graveyard in GoF although he would never have seen his face due to a mask. However, Crabbe, Jr is still at Hogwarts at the end of the summer term. Would he have not been at home by then, visiting his father in St Mungo's if it had been Crabbe, Sr who went though the bell jar? That leaves Avery (who Harry dreamed about but never saw) and Rabastan Lestrange (who HHN would all have seen pictures of in the Daily Prophet and in Hogsmeade but none of them appear to recognize the baby DE in the bell jar. Makes me think it was Avery. > > However, sorry this is so long. My main point is not who went through the bell jar, but I am now firmly convinced the remaining 9 DE's are in Azkaban. For however long, now the Dementors have revolted, I don't know. > Potioncat: I agree 9 DEs are in Azkaban. Bellatrix was taken by LV, and very possibly wishes she were in Azkaban. Two were injured. They are either in the hospital ward of Azkaban or the secured ward of St. Mungo's. You have done a very good job. I only have a couple of points. You ask if Crabbe should still be at Hogwarts if his father was injured. Well, there are very few days left if IRRC. So I can think of reasons he might still be there. Do we know if Nott is still at school? OR for that matter, are DEs allowed visitors? Back in the old days, IRRC, Crouch had to pull strings for Barty's mother to come visit him. But, like you say, Avery seems to be the best choice. From aandj at labyrinth.net.au Sun Jul 11 01:13:25 2004 From: aandj at labyrinth.net.au (Jocelyn Grunow) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:13:25 +1100 Subject: Delicious fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105567 on 11/7/2004 6:47 AM, Brenda M. at Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com wrote: > I thought the one "who has left me for ever" was Cornelius Fudge. Any > idea WHY his last name is so delicious but his character isn't? I have always thought of his name more in line with 'He fudged the answer' meaning, 'he didn't know it so he made up something that seemed convincing' (Much as Ron did for the Goblin wars) - the meaning can also shade towards being deliberately misleading, but it is definitely a shady, not-quite-honest sort of word. Jocelyn From mbenkin at andrew.cmu.edu Sun Jul 11 01:57:18 2004 From: mbenkin at andrew.cmu.edu (vituperative404) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 01:57:18 -0000 Subject: HP and the Half Blood Git In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105568 "K": > There's no canon proof yet that Snape every stood by and watched > while his pals tortured and murdered. Why oh why would Dumbledore > ever hire someone to teach if they had done those things? Just to > keep a closer watch over them? That's taking an awful big risk. > > I'm not saying there's no possible way Snape was never that evil. > I'm just saying we don't know that yet and until then I'm not > putting him in that camp. One can still hope he never did those > things. I don't like *evil* people either. :-) Melanie: You're right- there's no canon for Snape throwing Unforgivable curses at innocents. Yet. But I think the fact that Snape was a DE means we have to make deductions based on what we know the other DEs did, however distasteful that may be. After all, the DEs were the elite, Voldemort's right hand men-- becoming a DE meant they had to volunteer, have the "approval" of Voldemort himself, get a permanent tattoo, and run around in funny robes. It also meant torturing and murdering Order of the Phoenix members and Muggles, and somehow feeling that this was Time Well Spent. Even if Snape just made Veritaserum and poisons for the Cause, he's still morally culpable for supporting, you know, torture and murder. We can't have it both ways-- Snape either really *was* a DE in the full sense of the term and is trying to be redeemed, or he somehow managed to be the Diet Coke of DE evil and therefore has nothing to apologize for. As much as it pains me, we can't have Snape be innocent of the crimes of his peers *and* be heroically redeemed. As to why Dumbledore hired him, I think it's because Dumbledore believes in redemption. Snape turned his back on his dark past (at least, so we think) and turned spy "at great personal risk" at the end of the first war against Voldemort. And now he's risking his life to help the Order. This certainly goes some way towards justifying Dumbledore's "Severus Snape is now no more of a Death Eater than I am" remark in the pensieve scene of GoF. Of course, the exact whys and wherefores are a mystery. -Melanie, who really likes Snape, at least as a character, and will probably get a bit sniffly when he kicks the bucket in Book 7. From dzeytoun at cox.net Sun Jul 11 02:04:51 2004 From: dzeytoun at cox.net (dzeytoun) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 02:04:51 -0000 Subject: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105569 A lot of threads lately have been devoted to explaining mysteries of the relationships among Snape, Harry, and Dumbledore. These relationships are fascinating, but also puzzling and inconsistent. To a large extent we are lacking a lot of information we need. We are also hampered by the tight Harry-centric POV JKR uses. However, and this isn't going to make me popular, I think a lot of the explanation for why these three act the way they do is, well, that they HAVE to act that way for the plot to go the way JKR wants it to. The fact is that, good a writer as JKR is, characterization is her severe weak point. She just isn't very good at explaining what makes people tick. Look at the trio. After five books we STILL don't really know much about what kind of people Ron and Hermione really are, and why they make the decisions they do. True, a lot of this is due to POV. But an awful lot is also because JKR sometimes commits the cardinal sin of writing, she lots plot dictate character instead of the other way around. A lot of the seeming inconsistencies and flaws really ARE inconstistencies and flaws. In this case why does Dumbledore let Snape act the way he does toward Harry? Because it's needed for the plot. Dumbledore IS NOT a Machiavellian puppet master. Snape and Dumbledore ARE NOT engaged in some tag team good cop/bad cop arrangement to teach Harry about life. Snape IS NOT secretly a good guy who abuses Harry and Neville for their own good. Dumbledore IS NOT some secret evil genius out to manipulate Snape, Harry, and everybody else for some nefarious end. JKR wanted a good, kindly wizard headmaster to be Harry's mentor and an nasty, difficult teacher to be his nemesis. Therefore, that's the way she writes things. This creates contradictions and flaws. And that, by and large, is ALL they are. We want things to make sense. But the story often doesn't. And why should it? Life usually doesn't make sense. Theories about Snape and Dumbledore conspiring together to teach Harry about life are the same as theories about how Oswald had help on the grassy knoll in Dallas. That is they are conspiracy theories aimed at reducing the complexity of things to some controllable, understandable set of motives and decisions. And yes, I realize I'm being inconsistent in saying that JKR has flaws in the story on one hand and the story's are like life on the other. A foolish consistency and all that. Now such theories are a heck of a lot of fun. But at the end of the day, they almost never reveal anything much. Dzeytoun From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 02:54:21 2004 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 02:54:21 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105570 Valky: > > >>Snape, after all, is part of a Slytherin Racial Prejudice Gang.<< Huntergreen: > > But is he at this point? We know a few of the death-eaters were > older than Snape/James/Sirius/Peter/Lupin, perhaps his "gang" had > already graduated. In any case, if he did have a gang, at this point > none of them are around so it doesn't really matter. Valky: > What matters, in the context of my statement, is that Snape IS an > example, because he is known for his involvement in this part of the > WW. Katie: Where, precisely, is it established that *at the time of the Pensieve scene* Snape had the least thing to do with racial prejudice? His remark to Lily confirms it, but there's nothing in the scene before it that does. And I don't think Lily would have defended him so confidently if he were going around Draco-ing everyone. All we're going on is hearsay, and I think that if Sirius or James had any more legit reason (than "he exists") to torture and humiliate Snape, they'd have played it up to appeal to the crowd even more. Furthermore, were it even established that Snape at this point was a bigoted Dark Arts-practicing bastard, calling someone "Snivellus" and threatening to take off his underwear is not an argument. Obviously I like Sirius. If given a few more positive scenes with him, I might even like James. But what they do in this scene is, I think, reprehensible. I think the most loathsome qualities of adult Snape, interestingly enough, are displayed by Sirius and James in this scene: that is, bullying someone weaker than yourself for no real reason, and using it to your own advantage. ... You know, I was going to write more, but I decided it'd be smarter to stop here, and let you all argue about that last statement, if you like. -Katie who wonders if Professor Snape is as heartless as he seems From gertgal at aol.com Sun Jul 11 03:02:34 2004 From: gertgal at aol.com (Gielreta) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 03:02:34 -0000 Subject: DD's message to Hagrid and wand light (Was: Boggart/ Patronus Musings) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105571 >Carol: > A note here for what it's worth. We've seen several spells involving > red or green light (also red and green sparks sent as signals), two > spells (apparently) involving silver light, and one (the Phoenix song > with the duelling wands--not sure whether that qualifies as a spell) > involving golden light. Nothing so far involving blue or purple that I > recall. Gielreta: Actually, the spell that wounded Hermione in the DoM was purple. I don't know what the spell is, but it is obviously quite dangerous. Also, JKR has descibed several things as violent purple, including one version of Tonks's hair and the Knight Bus. Also, the both the curse that hit Hermione and the flames in the logic puzzle in SS were both described as "purple flames." Don't know if this helps, but I think that purple is prevalent. Gielreta From mayeaux45 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 00:21:52 2004 From: mayeaux45 at yahoo.com (mayeaux45) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 00:21:52 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105572 UdderPD wrote : > > Let me start by saying that I am an 'obselete old dingbat' (63 year > > old male). > > > > If ever a girl had said to me that I was the most insensitive prat > > she had ever had the misfortune to meet and that I had the emotional > > range of a teaspoon, inside two minutes; I would have no illusions as > > to how much she liked me. > > Del replies : > Lol ! Then I'm afraid you might have missed an opportunity :-) You > see, sometimes, when a girl is attracted to someone but thinks that > person is not somehow good enough for her, she might resort to > insulting that person in order to force him to improve, and thus > become good enough for her. > Mayeaux45: Well, I'd have to rule out the "Pygmalion Theory"(SC) all together. Hermione is known for accepting people as they are (Ron and Harry included), eventhough she might have a great dislike for them (Draco Malfoy, Prof. Snape, etc...). I don't think she would go through the "trouble" of trying to get Ron to change( or even Harry for that matter). > UdderPD wrote : > > Ron and Hermione fight because they are almost total opposites, > > without Harry as the catalyst I doubt they would ever talk to each > > other socialy. > > Del replies : > So what ? Many couples are like that and still work out very well. My > husband and his father are very much alike in temperament, but my > mother-in-law and myself couldn't be more different. And still we are > all happily married. > Mayeaux45: It is a common saying that "opposites do attract", but I'm not so sure in this case. JKR is a sneaky lady when it comes to what should be "obvious" to us readers. Expect the unexpected!! That's going to be my philosophy when reading books 6&7! > UdderPD wrote : > > Can you really imagine Hermione staying home to cook for Ron then > > sitting meekly listening while he babbled on about Quidditch? I am > > digressing sorry. > > Del replies : > First, we never know how people are going to evolve. I was Hermione > back when I was 15. Now at age 30, I'm working happily on being Molly. > Second, we don't know that this is what *Ron* would like anyway. He > admires Hermione's intelligence, that's part of his attraction to her. > So I doubt he'd want her to become someone he couldn't admire that way > anymore. > Mayeaux45: I agree with you somewhat on this one Del. But Ron DOES have the emotional range of a teaspoon. LOL! JKR hit the nail on the head with that comment being made by Hermione. But her overall intelligence has very little to do with Ron believing her to be a "insufferable know-it-all" (as was so eloquently put by Prof. Snape in PoA). Ron even said in the movie version that Prof. Snape 'had a point' when making that comment. Harry on the other hand, said NOTHING. > UdderPD wrote : > > Hermione said "Of course your not," ( with reference to Harry's > > kissing ability) without even thinking and as soon as Ron says "How > > do you know?" very sharply. She realises what she has given away and > > tries to cover up by talking about Cho and telling Ron exactly where > > he stands. > > Del replies : > But *what* has she given away exactly ?? > The way I read it, she's just baffled at 2 things : > 1. that the boys should conclude so fast that Cho was crying because > Harry was a bad kisser, when Cho cries all the time anyway, > 2. that the boys could believe that anyone could be such a bad kisser > that they would make their partner cry ! I mean, *I* didn't know about > Cho crying all over the place, but I was completely baffled that > *anyone* could think such an absurd thing ! My reaction was exactly > the same as Hermione's : of course you're not a bad kisser, because > nobody is, at least not to that extent. > Mayeaux45: But the point I think UdderPD was trying to make was that Hermione didn't put ANY thought into what she said before she spoke up. It was instantaneous and w/o thought. And I have a question...How does Hermione know the places in the castle that Cho does most of her crying in? Hermione doesn't come off as a gossip queen to me. Makes me wonder...who has she been talking to? She goes to eat with Harry and Ron, then to the library, then to the common room, and then classes in between all of that. She also doesn't seem like the kind of person to talk during a lesson or doddle in between classes as so not to be late. Hmmm? > UdderPD wrote : > > Harry has too much on his mind to worry about romance; within an hour > > of all this he is in the Headmasters office talking about the snake > > biting Arthur W. > Del replies : > Romance blossoms even in the harshest conditions : during wars, during > natural catastrophes, in prison, and so on. I would never put it past > anyone to fall in love, whatever their conditions. Mayeaux45: I agree with you whole-heartedly Del. JKR once said in an interview (I'm paraphrasing)...'that LOVE is the central theme in Harry Potter, without it it would be impossible' JKR loves Harry so much. There's a little bit of her in him...my point is that I don't think the books will end (either with Harry dying! or him living with others dying around him) without JKR allowing Harry to find "true love" and whatever that might be. From mayeaux45 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 00:34:00 2004 From: mayeaux45 at yahoo.com (mayeaux45) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 00:34:00 -0000 Subject: Second Task Choice (was: Emotional Intimacy in the HP stories...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105573 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "anasazi_pr" wrote: > Actually, I believe that both Ron and Hermione mean the same to > Harry. I think the second task was chosen based on who would he miss > the most (I don't have the book with me, but I think the puzzle > said "miss" specifically). > > There could be two reasons why he chose Ron over Hermione: > > a. Having just gotten over a row with Ron that lasted for a month, > Harry had a very fresh memory of what it would be like to lose Ron > and how much he would miss him. > > b. Krum got to choose first. And we all know he chose Hermione. > > I like to believe is the second one, because I'd like to thin that > he'd miss both Ron and Hermione the same (seems to fit with the trio > interaction presented in OoTP). Mayeaux45: I agree with you Anasazi. I'd also like to think that Harry would miss both Ron and Hermione just as much. He couldn't have picked both even if he wanted to anyways. Besides, once he had found out where they were when in the lake, he tried desperately to save Hermione as well! From mayeaux45 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 00:40:58 2004 From: mayeaux45 at yahoo.com (mayeaux45) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 00:40:58 -0000 Subject: Second Task Choice (was: Emotional Intimacy in the HP stories...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105574 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jason" wrote: > > Perhaps I missed a sentence or two in GoF, or its just been so long > since I've read it straight through, but I don't ever remember Harry > choosing Ron. Seems to me Ron was chosen for him. > > I can see the powers that chose saying, "well, Krum hasn't brought > anyone with him and he seems to be pretty fond of Hermy so lets pair > them up and go ahead and pair up Potter and Weasley." Mayeaux45: You have a good point. Now that I think about it, Harry never did "choose" Ron. They just assumed. I guess to them a 14 yr old wizard would miss his best male mate more than he would his best female one. They probably would have assumed James missing Sirius moreso than missing Lily as well back when they were in school. From hallisallimalli at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 03:24:19 2004 From: hallisallimalli at yahoo.com (halli) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 03:24:19 -0000 Subject: Boggart/ Patronus Musings - Quote Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105575 > Potioncat: > And, it appears that all the DADA teachers have taught the same > thing to all levels. But that may be a misunderstanding on our > part. Crouch!Moody says that he is teaching the 4th years what he > should be teaching at 6th year level. But we do not know if he is > telling the truth. > halli: Slightly off topic, but I just wanted to mention something thats been bugging me for awhile, and it seems to fit here. Hagrid said he waited for their 5th year to show them the thestrals, but Ginny and Luna knew all about them, which gives me the idea that teachers like Hagrid and Lupin (and all the defense teachers for that matter)- newer teachers- don't have a ordered curiculm and just teach all the kids the same thing, regardless of their year, just to simplfy things a bit. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 03:43:02 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 03:43:02 -0000 Subject: HP and the Half Blood Git In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105576 snip. > "K": > There's no canon proof yet that Snape every stood by and watched > while his pals tortured and murdered. Why oh why would Dumbledore > ever hire someone to teach if they had done those things? Just to > keep a closer watch over them? That's taking an awful big risk. > > I'm not saying there's no possible way Snape was never that evil. > I'm just saying we don't know that yet and until then I'm not > putting him in that camp. One can still hope he never did those > things. I don't like *evil* people either. :-) Alla: Why Dumbledore would ever hired Snape if Snape killed and tortured while being a DE? Probably because Dumbledore is big on second chances? He keeps giving people seconf chances over and over again. I don't see him as not giving one to Snape. Werevolf Lupin deserved a second chance in Dumbledore's eyes. Why not Snape then? Are you saying that Dumbledore would not have put children in danger by hiring former murderer? He hired a teacher who is potentially dangerous once a month. Now, you may say that Dumbledore believed that Lupin will be safe while taking potion. True, he thought he took necessary precautions. But, I think that Dumbledore also taking necessary precautions against Snape going to his old ways by not giving him DADA job. It is true, we don't know yet for sure whether Snape participated in killings or not, but I think it is a very reasonable assumption to make judging by what we know about the activities of Voldie and his gang so far. Are you saying that Snape was so special that he was allowed to join and just observe? Even if it is true - just observing is bad enough. From HP5Freak at aol.com Sun Jul 11 03:57:27 2004 From: HP5Freak at aol.com (HP5Freak at aol.com) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 23:57:27 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Goyle was not at MOM and is not in Azkaban Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105577 Potioncat and other interested parties-- The link to the essay about who was where at the DoM for the Great Battle is here-- http://www.hp-lexicon.org/essays/essay-battle.html Yes it is from Steve's EXCELLENT and prize-winning Lexicon. (Congrats to Steve and his fellow editors, by the way...) Amber, who is hoping the list-elves do not perceive this as a one-liner as there are technically 2 1/2 sentences and 4 lines... :) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jakejensen at hotmail.com Sun Jul 11 04:00:12 2004 From: jakejensen at hotmail.com (jakedjensen) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 04:00:12 -0000 Subject: Dudley as HBP??!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105578 I think it highly unlikely that Dudley is the half blood prince. Harry is suppose to be a half-blood. (James-pure; Lily-muggle born). So, unless Vernon is a wizard (highly unlikely), Dudley, at best, could only be a muggle-born. One might be able to call a half-blood a muggle-born (say, if you are a blood purest of the strickest ilk), but it makes little sense to call a muggle-born a half-blood (half- of-what?). I do think there is more to Petunia (not the HBP, but possibly the one to develop magic late in life...possibly, but even that seems to be a bit of stretch...Filch is a better candidate for that...in my opinion). Someone might be able to convince me if they show me some text to back it up, but on it's face....Dudley appears ineligable for the title of half blood prince (if it means what we think it means). Jake From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 04:06:09 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 04:06:09 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105579 > > Alla earlier: > > > > What am I missing? > > > > Why Voldemort will expect Snape to be horrible to Harry? Pippin: > I am guessing that the Snape who joined Voldemort was a lot > more like the Snape that we see in the Pensieve scene than the > Snape we know now--someone who was, as Snape put it in > OOP, "easy prey for the Dark Lord!" someone who was one of > those "Fools who wear their hearts proudly on their sleeves, who > cannot control their emotions, who wallow in sad memories and > allow themselves to be provoked so easily--weak people, in > other words..." > > The Snape that Voldemort knew of old would have hated Harry > for James's sake and would not have been capable of > concealing it. Snape is thus the last person Voldemort would > think could be a spy--for *either* side > > Of course this interpretation requires that Voldemort not be > aware of Dumbledore's testimony at Karkaroff's trial, but > we can deduce that this was concealed because Sirius, who > was very interested in Karkaroff, didn't know about it. (GoF 27) > snip. Alla: Pippin, I thank you for your explanation, but unfortunately you confused me even more. :o) Sorry. I thought that the reasoning behind "Snape has to maintain his cover" was that Voldemort has to think of Snape as double agent, as his spy against Dumbledore. Are you saying that Voldemort thinks that whatever Snape does to Harry is due to his nature, his ability to keep grudges against James, in essense Snape just being himself, as Voldemort sees it? Of what use Snape will be to Voldemort if he cannot be a spy? If Voldemort indeed expect Snape to put on a show of being loyal to Dumbledore, would not his nastiness to Harry make Dumbledore doubt his loyalty and in fact undermines Voldemort's intentions? Sorry! I think I confused myself too. From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sun Jul 11 04:08:08 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 04:08:08 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105580 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > Valky's post that started it all : > > > James only uses physically non-harmful hexes Snape ( I won't say harmless because I concede the truth of psychological harm), Snape employs a more dangerous attack on James than James even considers unleashing on Snape. Although I accept that James was indeed having a bit o' a lark at Snapes expense I see he was *already noble*. > > > Valky glances anxiously at the score, "Darn it, are we still on that point." she murmurs to herself sweeping her sweaty brow and wincing. Del gleams a most devilish smile and hummingly breathes, "Weakened are we ? You haven't struck a decent blow yet, Valky" The two wands flourish and the champions engage again........ > > Valky wrote : > > "the Avada Kedavra's a curse that needs a powerful bit of magic > > behind it - you could all get your wands out now and point them at me and say the words, and I doubt I'd get so much as a nose- bleed." Crouch!Moody, GOF, Chapter 14 The Unforgivable Curses > > Therefore, I put to you Del, is it not beyond reasonable doubt that this influence could apply to other magic? > Del replies : > No, it's reasonable. > However, I'd like to point out that Snape did not even voice his curse on James, and still it had an effect. That seems to counter your opinion that Snape was not powerfully magical. Which in turn means that if that curse was indeed AK, then Snape probably could actually kill with it already at that time. I wonder why he didn't use it on James in a much more quiet place and time ...? > Valky: In turn you have also countered any future claim by yourself that Snape was a hapless non-threatening target for James. So I thank you for that. I don't think it was the AK. (And I strongly, very strongly reject that it could have been a misdirected "stupefy" or "expelliarmus". There is no way it was even vaguely related to either of those, they don't cut people. In EVERY case of canon that involves one of those going wrong the opponent is knocked unconcious not cuts, no mortal wounding, so just to preempt a reply of that nature.) It was in a related field of magic to the AK I would bet my entire keepings in Grigotts on it. It was a Dark Arts Curse, I will take that bet with anyone who dares. It was dangerous and it was the precise 'case in point' to show that Snape was serious in battle with James, deadly serious. I don't think he ever tried to hide that fact. > Valky wrote : But he's practicing, and he *would* choose that curse over such thing as a slug hex or something less ummmm well sinister. > > Del replies : > Snape is a lot of unpleasant things, but he's not *stupid*. I > seriously doubt that he would go killing a fellow student in broad > daylight and in front of dozens of eye-witnesses. > Valky: You are talking about Snape the adult. I see absolutely no evidence in Snape the child that even remotely implies an intelligent, subtle, coolheaded person in control of himself. Now, he may have been smart enough to not attempt murder in the broad daylight, this is true. Nevertheless, he was baying for James blood. He would have taken whatever he could get, I see no canon whatsoever in the pensieve scene to prove that he was any more rational than this. Del: > Honestly, if he really wanted to kill James, he could do it in a much more discrete way. Just send a fake note from Lily telling him to meet her in a secluded place at night, and zap him away from spying eyes. > Valky: Well I would not have put it past him to have done so at some stage. The truth is, i am soooo sure lets take another bet!, the only person in range of these two boys that was the slighest bit a challenge for them was each other. James was his nemesis. Not just his bully. > Valky wrote : > > "...only because you're too noble to use them..." ring a bell to you at all? > > Del replies : > "Who wants to see me take off Snivelly's pants ?" > Ring another bell ? > Valky: We aren't up to that bit yet, Del. James had a very very poor temper didn't he. It really cut him that Lily called him just like Snape. Ohh purlease can we save this bit for when I lead into it. > Valky wrote : > > But James, who although he dislikes Snape, doesn't really want to put the boys life at risk, > > So he uses silly hexes. The teasing is just a byline........ > > Del replies : > I disagree. It's pretty clear to me that all James and Sirius were > after was entertainment and showing off. They keep mocking Snape, and they obviously take great pleasure in making the crowd laugh. They just wanted to make fun of Snape, and to show off their talents, > that's just it. > Valky: Ok I said to Hunter my answer to this is Look Closer! Snape never takes his eyes off James. There is a silent dialogue between them. Sirius is of no consequence in the slightest to Snape. No matter what he does to get Snapes attention, Snape ignores him. The three engaged in this incedent already know whats going on between them theres no need to voice it. Except that it would help US a whole lot to understand whats going on. Look deeply at the silent dialogue, Del. It is James and Snape. Sirius is desperate for a look in but Snape has no regard for him or his opinion. Theres a huge backstory in just that small fact. > Valky wrote : Even after Snape did throw the curse that cut his > > face, FROM BEHIND, he did not retaliate he humiliated. > > Del replies : > It's *James* that broke the rules of fair duelling : he didn't let his opponent get into position before attacking *2 on 1* AND *without > provocation* - that makes THREE serious breaches in the rules of fair duelling. After that, I don't see how anyone can blame Snape for not following those rules either : he was just following James's lead. > Valky: If you look at my posted reply to Hunter you'll see how I point out Snape does a lot more of that precise thing, following James' lead. > Valky wrote : > > Could James mind not be "This is teaching the coward some humility." > > Del replies : > James was so brave indeed, going 2 on 1... > Valky: My only defence is that James took on Snape alone to begin with. After that Sirius attack was a precursor to his taunting only to gain Snapes attention. > Valky wrote : > > Snape, after all, is part of a Slytherin Racial Prejudice Gang. > > Del replies : > So what ? As long as Snape doesn't DO anything wrong (like insulting Lily, but even then it wasn't James's job to punish him), James has NO RIGHT to punish Snape. Nobody is allowed to punish anyone else for their OPINIONS. > Valky: Quite right, though I suspect you've already gathered I am heading somewhere entirely different with my argument. > Valky wrote : > > ....we cannot judge that James was not already noble in using milder counterhexes. Sirius certainly seemed to believe so........... > > Del replies : > Hanging someone upside down, threatening to take their underwear off (and maybe actually doing it), I don't see anything noble in that, and I see something very emotionally damaging. If someone took your kid's clothes off rather than beating him up, I don't think you'd find that "milder". > Valky: I am not sure. I am basing this heavily on my bet that Snape used a dangerous and evil curse. I reckon a good tipping would be in order. Though I would certainly want to point out to the other boy that he has needs to keep his temper in check, and take rejection from his girlfriend more handsomely. > Valky wrote : > > Snape was in neck deep in the Dark Arts, He exhibited racially > > prejudice behaviour. > > Del replies : > Being fascinated by the Dark Arts is not a crime. Valky: No, I am accusing him of using them here. And I stand by it unequivocally. Del: > And we don't know that Snape exhibited racism : Valky: This statement refers exclusively to his one statement about Lily. Then I consider James reply to her comment "Your as bad as he is!" And reading between the lines I'd say they (James and Sirius) had prior cause to believe he was racially prejudiced. > Del: .....we know he believed in it, but we don't know that he acted on those beliefs. Seems to me that if Snape had been bullying Lily for being a Muggle-born for 5 years, she would not have come to his defence, and she would not have been so surprised at his insult. > Once again, I repeat : you can't punish someone for their *beliefs*, only for their *acts* > Valky: I would not have ever implied that Snape might have been bullying non pureblood wizards. I deduce absolutely that he never would have, bullying was not his style. I think that Sirius and James were neither intending to punish Snape for his beliefs OR his acts. But to demonstrate a position of authority over them for its own end. In other words they stood over what he represented, to them, entirely for the reason of standing over it. Nothing else. > Del further replies : It was a personal attack. Proof of that is that when Lily asks James why he's attacking Snape, he doesn't mention the Dark Arts, he doesn't mention the racism, he doesn't mention doing an example, he simply says he doesn't like the fact that Snape exists : Snape, not his beliefs, not his actions, not his friends, just Snape himself. > Valky: "Ummmm" The fox lowers her wand and beckons to Del with a tentative finger. "Just between you and me.." She whispers hoarsely "I don't want to fight this one." Del reels back startled, steadies a curious gaze at the Fox and asks "Why?" "Well... actually, I fully concede that the attack on Snape had a shallow principle, well at least in part, a small part....." Del jumped backed into battle position and declared," I am not done!" Del, wrote : > > > Snape, on the other hand, was trying to win what he considered to be a classic wizard duel. The best and fastest way is to disable your opponent, hence the physically harming curse. > > Valky answered : > > From Behind? > > Still makes him less than noble in his intentions. > > Del replies : > Yep, after having been attack for no reason, by 2 people, who didn't leave him any time to get into position. James and Sirius played dirty right from the beginning, Snape followed suit. > Valky: I don't really think it was so dirty actually. James was always going to be Snapes first and last target. I have a feeling that Snape and Sirius had battled before and Sirius couldn't best Snape. Snape had no regard for Sirius, none. All three boys knew this, Sirius wanted to mean something to Snape, but the only thing that mattered was James. > > Del closes with a summation of my closing: > In short James had a noble heart but acted vilely, while Snape had a vile heart but we have no proof he acted in any vile way. Humph. > And replied with: > And just because Snape's beliefs aren't popular doesn't mean he should change them. He's a got a RIGHT to think as he wants. He just doesn't have the right to act in certain ways. That's a BIG difference. > Valky: My point is HE DOES change them to become the Snape we know in the modern day HP World, whereas what is in James heart does not change. (ps. I like your style Del, meet me in TBAY and we'll talk business on the terms of our agreement.) From marcuscason at charter.net Sun Jul 11 04:30:05 2004 From: marcuscason at charter.net (kyntor70) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 04:30:05 -0000 Subject: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105581 Dzeytoun wrote: "A lot of threads lately have been devoted to explaining mysteries of the relationships among Snape, Harry, and Dumbledore. These relationships are fascinating, but also puzzling and inconsistent. To a large extent we are lacking a lot of information we need. We are also hampered by the tight Harry-centric POV JKR uses. However, and this isn't going to make me popular, I think a lot of the explanation for why these three act the way they do is, well, that they HAVE to act that way for the plot to go the way JKR wants it to. The fact is that, good a writer as JKR is, characterization is her severe weak point. She just isn't very good at explaining what makes people tick. Look at the trio. After five books we STILL don't really know much about what kind of people Ron and Hermione really are, and why they make the decisions they do. True, a lot of this is due to POV. But an awful lot is also because JKR sometimes commits the cardinal sin of writing, she lots plot dictate character instead of the other way around. A lot of the seeming inconsistencies and flaws really ARE inconstistencies and flaws. In this case why does Dumbledore let Snape act the way he does toward Harry? Because it's needed for the plot. Dumbledore IS NOT a Machiavellian puppet master. Snape and Dumbledore ARE NOT engaged in some tag team good cop/bad cop arrangement to teach Harry about life. Snape IS NOT secretly a good guy who abuses Harry and Neville for their own good. Dumbledore IS NOT some secret evil genius out to manipulate Snape, Harry, and everybody else for some nefarious end. JKR wanted a good, kindly wizard headmaster to be Harry's mentor and an nasty, difficult teacher to be his nemesis. Therefore, that's the way she writes things. This creates contradictions and flaws. And that, by and large, is ALL they are. We want things to make sense. But the story often doesn't. And why should it? Life usually doesn't make sense. Theories about Snape and Dumbledore conspiring together to teach Harry about life are the same as theories about how Oswald had help on the grassy knoll in Dallas. That is they are conspiracy theories aimed at reducing the complexity of things to some controllable, understandable set of motives and decisions. And yes, I realize I'm being inconsistent in saying that JKR has flaws in the story on one hand and the story's are like life on the other. A foolish consistency and all that. Now such theories are a heck of a lot of fun. But at the end of the day, they almost never reveal anything much." Kyntor replies: This has been mentioned before (if I remember correctly, it was long time ago), but I think that it bears repeating. The Harry Potter Series was originally intended for children. In order to appeal to children some of the character traits are exagerrated (as in all children's literature). Because of this fact, some of the development of certain characters is flawed. Now that JKR is gearing her books toward a little bit older crowd, she is stuck with some inconsistancies. Kyntor From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sun Jul 11 04:54:49 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 04:54:49 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Power_in_JKR=92s_magic_?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105582 > Neri: > In JKR's "theory of magic", power seems to come not so much from > learning or skill, or even some arbitrary row potential, but more > from courage. Mainly the courage to make moral choices and be > loyal to a person or to a cause. > > The patronus is a typical example of this principal: you need a > powerful and happy memory to produce it. The more powerful the > memory, the more powerful the patronus. Jen: I got a fortune cookie recently that said, "Avoid scattering your energies." Oddly enough, I thought of Snape ;). This is the prinicple he was teaching Harry during Occlumency: Your power is proportional to how well you close off distractions and focus your mind. Dumbledore talks of the well-organized mind, and I imagine such a mind to be free from worry, doubts, what-if's, second guessing, etc., all the daily troubles that drag us away from being useful. No energy is wasted or lost in such a mind. The duel between Dumbledore and LV exemplifies a 'meeting of the minds.' They don't use words, but we still see the results. Both of these men have a laser-like ability to focus their intention until it becomes reality--all in a split second. That's powerful!. If this idea is true, then being a gifted Occlumens might help a person become more magically powerful, in addition to blocking incursions into one's mind. Like in meditation, a person is focusing on emptying the mind, detaching from emotion. Dumbledore appears to be in this state while battling LV in the MOM. Learning Legilimency would also require a laser-like focus on another person's mind, without distraction. And the Patronus, like Neri mentioned, is produced when one is able to focus intently on a very happy thought to the exclusion of all else. Banishing a Boggart is the same--focus intently on a humourous thought. Neri: > I once tried to formulate this as an explicit theory based on the > power behind the locked door. This was probably overdoing it, but the > principle certainly holds in the metaphorical level of HP. > > There are only five people in HP that have the courage to pronounce > Voldemort's name regularly: DD, Harry, Lupin, Sirius, and (only > recently) Hermione. This is one reason I think Lupin is a powerful > wizard, and also why neither Lupin nor Sirius will turn out to be > ESE. Jen: I'm not sure about Sirius, but I'm convinced Lupin is skilled at Legilimency. We have at least two examples of him staring intently at someone while the person is speaking, once in the Shrieking Shack and once at Grimmauld Place. There may be other examples. So Lupin, Dumbledore and Snape would be especially skilled at gathering their mind-energy for battle, and not losing their focus along the way. Jen Reese From marcuscason at charter.net Sun Jul 11 04:59:32 2004 From: marcuscason at charter.net (kyntor70) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 04:59:32 -0000 Subject: Second Task Choice (was: Emotional Intimacy in the HP stories...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105583 Anasazi wrote: "Hi, Jason. I found my copy of GoF. This is what the egg said: "Come seek us where our voices sound, We cannot sing above the ground, And while you re searching, ponder this: We've taken what you'll sorely miss, An hour long you'll have to look, And to recover what we took, But past an hour- the prospect's black, Too late, it's gone, it wont come back" And this is what Dobby said when he woke up Harry that morning. "What?" Harry gasped. "They've got. . . they've got Ron?" "The thing Harry Potter will miss most, sir!" squeaked Dobby. So it seems that, though the choice was made for Harry by the Powers That Be, Harry's feelings were the determining factor in the choice. It must have been that way too with the other champions, including Krum's choice of Hermione." Kyntor replies: I don't know if Harry's feeling were a factor in the decision. Instead I think it was what Dumbledore thought Harry's feeling were. I don't really know if you can read anything into the fact that Ron was chosen to be Harry's "thing he would miss most" over Hermione. If Krum would have not had claims on Hermione, it would have probably of been a coin toss. In order to find out who someone would miss the most (for sure) some sort of legilimency would probably have to be involved. I do not think that goverment officials (The Triwizard Tournament was officailly sponsored by the governments) would want legilimency to be practiced on children. Kyntor From Batchevra at aol.com Sun Jul 11 05:02:35 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 01:02:35 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] DD's message to Hagrid and wand light (Was: Boggart/ Patr... Message-ID: <1e1.25153bd1.2e2223eb@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105584 In a message dated 7/10/04 9:49:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, justcarol67 at yahoo.com writes: >Carol responds: Although I agree that DD's Patronus is probably a Phoenix (I also see a stong Phoenix/Gryffindor or Fawkes/Gryffindor connection), I don't recall the silvery light that shot from DD's wand as he summoned Hagrid being Phoenix-shaped. (I could be wrong here; if you have the quote handy, by all means supply it.) I did wonder, though, when I read that passage, what kind of spell DD could be casting since it didn't have any connection with Dementors and was definitely not a Patronus.< GOF, Pg 560, US version in the chapter of The Madness of Mr. Crouch. He raised his wand into the air and pointed it in the direction of Hagrid's cabin. Harry saw something silvery dart out of it and streak away through the trees like a ghostly bird. I thought that since the Order was the Order of the Phoenix it was a phoenix that Dumbledore sent to summon Hagrid. Also, since COS, Dumbledore and Fawkes seem very close, and when Dumbledore says to Harry that you must have shown me loyalty that called Fawkes into the Chamber. Then Fawkes In OOTP both takes Dumbledore out of harm and takes an AK for him. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From siskiou at vcem.com Sun Jul 11 05:22:59 2004 From: siskiou at vcem.com (Susanne) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 22:22:59 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <563313122.20040710222259@vcem.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105585 Hi, Saturday, July 10, 2004, 5:21:52 PM, mayeaux45 wrote: > Mayeaux45: Well, I'd have to rule out the "Pygmalion Theory"(SC) > all together. Hermione is known for accepting people as they are > (Ron and Harry included), eventhough she might have a great dislike > for them (Draco Malfoy, Prof. Snape, etc...). I don't think she > would go through the "trouble" of trying to get Ron to change( or > even Harry for that matter). IMO, Hermione "goes through the trouble" of trying to change/improve the people around her all the time! I think, it's her favorite hobby. ;) She constantly tries to get others to work like she does, tell them what they should be doing (take a nap, instead of playing Quidditch; preparing for the second task, instead of enjoying surviving the first for a short while; saying "Voldemort", instead of avoiding the name, and much more) and giving "helpful" gifts I also don't quite agree that she accepts people as they are, since she *is* putting a lot of energy into trying to improve them. And she is having a hard time accepting Luna and Fleur, and Lavender and Parvati, for example, and several non-human people. And I am curious how you see her as accepting of Malfoy? Could you explain a little more? -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at vcem.com From marcuscason at charter.net Sun Jul 11 05:34:17 2004 From: marcuscason at charter.net (kyntor70) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 05:34:17 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105586 Katie wrote: "Where, precisely, is it established that *at the time of the Pensieve scene* Snape had the least thing to do with racial prejudice? His remark to Lily confirms it, but there's nothing in the scene before it that does. And I don't think Lily would have defended him so confidently if he were going around Draco-ing everyone. All we're going on is hearsay, and I think that if Sirius or James had any more legit reason (than "he exists") to torture and humiliate Snape, they'd have played it up to appeal to the crowd even more. Furthermore, were it even established that Snape at this point was a bigoted Dark Arts-practicing bastard, calling someone "Snivellus" and threatening to take off his underwear is not an argument. Obviously I like Sirius. If given a few more positive scenes with him, I might even like James. But what they do in this scene is, I think, reprehensible. I think the most loathsome qualities of adult Snape, interestingly enough, are displayed by Sirius and James in this scene: that is, bullying someone weaker than yourself for no real reason, and using it to your own advantage. ... You know, I was going to write more, but I decided it'd be smarter to stop here, and let you all argue about that last statement, if you like." Kyntor replies: I don't really see how you can judge a person based on twenty minutes of pensieve. Especailly considering that we don't really have any information on Snapes and James relationship the rest of the seven years in school. There are several things that I think you should consider. 1. Snape did use a racial slur against Lily. You can speculate that it was the first time he ever used one, but it is speculation. 2. Lily did change her opinion of James (they were married) so he must have grown up and stopped being a brat. 3. It was mentioned in PoA that Snape followed the maurauders around trying to get them expelled. I can't remember who said it. It was either Lupin or Sirius. It is a lot more believable if it was Lupin. 4. During the pensieve scene James was using spells that would humiliate Snape. When Snape got the opportunity to retaliate, he did not respond in kind. Instead of trying to humilate James, he shoots a spell at James that physically injured him (a cutting spell). The spell cut James cheek. After that James got really nasty; however, he still did not try to physically injure Snape. 5. After school James joined the Order of the Phoenix. After school Snape became a death eater. Of course, we now know that Snape switched sides and became a spy for Dumbledore, but JKR has strongly hinted that Snape was a real death eater at least at first. Judging James by that one pensieve scene is about as crazy as judging Snape solely on the fact that he became a death eater. Both leaves us with incomplete pictures of the characters involved. As far as who started the rivalry between Snape and James, I would guess that both party's hands were dirty. Kyntor From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 05:58:25 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 05:58:25 -0000 Subject: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105587 > Dzeytoun wrote: > A lot of threads lately have been devoted to explaining mysteries of > the relationships among Snape, Harry, and Dumbledore. These > relationships are fascinating, but also puzzling and inconsistent. > To a large extent we are lacking a lot of information we need. We > are also hampered by the tight Harry-centric POV JKR uses. > > However, and this isn't going to make me popular, I think a lot of > the explanation for why these three act the way they do is, well, > that they HAVE to act that way for the plot to go the way JKR wants > it to. The fact is that, good a writer as JKR is, characterization > is her severe weak point. She just isn't very good at explaining > what makes people tick. Look at the trio. After five books we STILL > don't really know much about what kind of people Ron and Hermione > really are, and why they make the decisions they do. > > True, a lot of this is due to POV. But an awful lot is also because > JKR sometimes commits the cardinal sin of writing, she lots plot > dictate character instead of the other way around. A lot of the > seeming inconsistencies and flaws really ARE inconstistencies and > flaws. > Neri: Your case will be much stronger if you can bring a at least one specific example where the plot clearly dictates the character. Preferably with characters we know very well, not with a character like Snape, on which very few is actually known. I can't think of a single example like this. Generally, I think JKR's characterization is quite good, though not fabulus. The only times I can think of when characters act out of character is when they pretend, e.g. Crouch! Moody or Scabbes!Peter. Neri From mayeaux45 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 00:29:59 2004 From: mayeaux45 at yahoo.com (mayeaux45) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 00:29:59 -0000 Subject: PoA Question In-Reply-To: <40F05969.1090903@colinogilvie.co.uk> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105588 Cathy wrote: > > So, do you think the stuff that has been left out, important > > things, mean they are not as important after all? Colin O wrote: > To a cerain extent, I would say yes. IIRC, from the Chamber of > Secrets DVD Extras, Steve Kloves script is checked with JKR to > ensure that the details in the film are important to the rest of > the story, and that nothing vital is missed out, so that people > just watching the film get as much as people who read the book. Mayeaux45: That's kind of what I was thinking as well. JKR is always the "go to" person when making these films and keeping to the important themes. If the movie is wrapped up and released to the public, just know that JKR has approved it first! That's all I need to know. It is her world we are living in when we read the books and watch the movies after all... From donpietro69 at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 11 02:35:40 2004 From: donpietro69 at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Lee=20Moyo?=) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 03:35:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: PoA Question In-Reply-To: <000c01c466a6$45173690$14c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: <20040711023540.17591.qmail@web25102.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105589 Cathy Drolet wrote: > Several people here think that the PoA movie, particularly some 'added' > scenes or incidents that were not in the book, foreshadow what is going > to happen in books 6 & 7. If that is the case, can we also assume that > the things that were left out, things that we think - for one reason or > another - are important, are not as important as we thought? > So, do you think the stuff that has been left out, important things, mean > they are not as important after all? Lee: (who is trying to catch up with 57 messages before bed) Well I don't think that they may be important as such. I think JK Rowling could have said well yeah put that in, and as we know the director cut a lot in the end. I think what we have is a situation where each of the directors will want to make their part in the part of the story (meaning each book that one directs to make the films) a good one and may not follow what will be important later because they want to make a hit and keep up a reputation. Forgive me for those who may find what I am going to put in here next, but take the Lord of the Rings. That was six books when it first was printed though many people actually think that it was three. Well the director of that tried to fit in as much as he can in the movie of what was in the book before. He managed to a large extent, even though there are some things he changed as well for the big screen. The point here is that he was not afraid to throw out convention and said those without the patience to watch each 3 hour plus movie don't deserve to watch the film of that magnitude. That and the fact that the majority of the fans for that where adults as to the Harry Potter where it is 50:50 ration of adults to children. So unless we get a director for the remainder of the film who is brave enough to portray the story as it is on the books to as much as what is possible then we won't get the chance. Another point to that is that J.K will not always let them know what is really important because she may fear that the story will be revealed especially seeing as the directors are tending to be changed and may feel they have to explain scenes and parts to justify the movies. All in all we are doomed because the films have to sell and that means 1: they can not be too long (even though us adults would prefer that) 2: There are a lot of sales which are dependent on children, 3: J.K Rowling can not trust to release some of her secrets because they may be released by a director or actor who feels they have to justify something if the films don't do well and finally because books are always better because they explain everything to the last detail, especially our beloved Rowling. I just wish she would finish the books sooner. I have grown with this and it's just killing me now. From donpietro69 at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 11 02:44:44 2004 From: donpietro69 at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Lee=20Moyo?=) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 03:44:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tom Riddle in CoS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040711024444.15063.qmail@web25109.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105590 SSSusan: > If Voldy *knew* what Lucius had been up to, don't you think he > would have held Lucius up in the graveyard at an example of a > DEVOTED FOLLOWER? Yet, he didn't. In fact, he chastised Lucius > a bit. And if Malfoy had been doing it FOR Voldy, I think Lucius > would have protested, "But, look what I tried to do for you, > Master." The fact that Malfoy DIDN'T protest makes me think he > did this purely on his own, for his own play for power. Lee: Or he does not answer back because as he know as much as The Death eaters love (if that's what you can call it) and follow Voldy and all important fear him, then he will not answer back. As we have seen and they all know, to talk back could mean death. Which is why they never raise the issue of him being a half blood despite believing that all should be pure bloods. From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 03:01:39 2004 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 03:01:39 -0000 Subject: Movie PoA Foreshadows Books 6 & 7 (other than Lupin-related) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105591 mhbobbin wrote: > Any other ideas on foreshadowing that might have inadvertently been > revealed in film that JKR is referring to? > Katie responded: > I can't add much to your other ideas, I'm afraid, but one more > possibility: what about Sirius appearing in the crystal > ball? ...Foreshadowing of the mirror, perhaps? > Carol notes: > In the book, it's Trelawney who sees the Grim, not Hermione, as in the > film: [snip] > I agree that, whoever sees it, it's actually > Sirius. I also think that Trelawney can really see things in the > crystal ball and the tea leaves, but she often misinterprets them, > possibly because she's so afraid of really being a fraud. Katie: I was actually thinking about the scene in the movie where non- Padfoot Sirius appears in the crystal ball, right before Trelawney wigs out and sounds like Linda Blair. But that's a fascinating point, and it adds doubly to the idea that Sirius will appear in Divination-type form again. Oh, and what was with the movie's Grim- shaped cloud, by the way? -Katie who doesn't think the movie is the final word on what will be important in the series, because there's way too much vital stuff it leaves out (phew) From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Jul 11 06:59:12 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 06:59:12 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle - Riddle murders In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105592 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: Wanda: > I assume me must have been about 16, because the story of the Riddles > uses the same term used to describe the original Chamber of Secrets > incident: "fifty years ago". I don't take that quite as literally as > some do, who reason that if Tom Riddle was a 15-year old student 50 > years before Book 3, then he must have been 16 years old when the > incidents described in Book 4 took place, because it's one year later > in the series. I take "fifty years ago" to be a bit of a vague > indication of time; in normal parlance, it could mean somewhere > between 48 and 53 years in the past. Geoff: Couple of pieces of canon: 'There was a knock on the office door. "Enter", said the old wizard in a feeble voice. A boy of about sixteen entered, taking off his pointed hat. A silver Prefect's badge was glinting on his chest. He was much taller than Harry but he, too, had jet-black hair. "Ah, Riddle," said the Headmaster.' (COS "The Very Secret Diary" p.181 UK edition) 'Every version of the tale, however, started in the same place: fifty years before, at daybreak on a fine summer's morning.....' (GOF "THe Riddle House" p.7 UK edition) The implication in COS has always been that the events are indeed 50 years on whereas, I agree, GOF may be a bit more flexible although the phrase "about fifty years ago" might have been used instead... The COS incident is in the middle of Harry's Second Year and so is early in 1993 and his GOF dream/vision is in the late summer break before his Fourth Year, in 1994, which suggest that TR was maybe 17 at the time so whether he was "of age" could be marginal. From shoujo at optusnet.com.au Sun Jul 11 03:39:14 2004 From: shoujo at optusnet.com.au (Shoujo) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:39:14 +1000 Subject: HBP & the Weasleys In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105593 "genma99" wrote: > From an online chat with Scholastic on World Book Day: > Q: Are the Muggle and Magical worlds ever going to be rejoined? > A: No, the breach was final, although as book six shows, the Muggles > are noticing more and more odd happenings now that Voldemort's back. I think that muggles noticing more weird things happening because of Voldemort is just because them noticing the effects of the WW on the Non-Magic World. Remember the Chocolate Frog cards? Dumbledore was involved in the defeat of dark wizard Grindlewald in 1945. When did Hitler fall? I would suggest that this is evidence that the general tone of society is affected by a Dark Wizard, or at least something similar. Or maybe Hitler was a magician! Food for thought though. Bill -- Bill Cooney Original Music for Film, Television, Theatre and Multimedia From gelite67 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 05:02:22 2004 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 05:02:22 -0000 Subject: Was Harry Born a Muggle? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105594 My personal theory as to why LV couldn't kill Harry: Snape was there and interfered b/c he was in love with Lily. He arrived too late to save her, but he saved Harry so that part of her would live on. My alternative theory is that LV got it wrong and Neville was the person referred to in the prophesy. Harry was born a Muggle but became a wizard when LV transferred some of his powers to him (marked him as his equal). LV could only kill the infant who was mentioned in the prophesy; since Harry wasn't the infant, LV couldn't kill him. There are references to LV killing Muggles, but no other references to him killing infants, I don't think. Just a theory . . . ready to be shot down. Angie From adanabbett at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 05:02:59 2004 From: adanabbett at yahoo.com (Adan) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 05:02:59 -0000 Subject: Boggart/ Patronus Musings - Seeing Patronus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105595 Katie wrote: > do we ever see the corporeal Patronus of anyone but than > Harry?)> Well, let's see... during the DA meeting (OotP, CH 27 The Centaur and the Snake) we get the following: Cho (silvery Swan), Lavendar (silver vapor), Neville (feeble wisps of silver smoke), Seamus (not sure, but 'definitely something hairy'), Hermione (shining silver otter)... then Dobby busts into the meeting to warn them of the impending doom. "The few Patronuses people had managed to conjure faded away into silver mist, leaving the room looking much darker than before." So there may have been others, but we don't get to know. Adan, wondering what Ginny's is... From aboutthe1910s at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 05:04:13 2004 From: aboutthe1910s at yahoo.com (aboutthe1910s) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 05:04:13 -0000 Subject: R & H - More in common than meets the eye (was Hermione's reaction) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105596 Udder PD: > Ron and Hermione fight because they are almost total opposites, > without Harry as the catalyst I doubt they would ever talk to each > other socialy. Jo Serenadust: > I'm afraid that I don't agree about Ron and Hermione being total > opposites. Yes, on a superficial level, they can appear to be > concering things like schoolwork, Quidditch, and house-elf > liberation, but their conflicts arise from the fact that they have > so very much in common. Both are deeply insecure (although this > insecurity manifests itself differently in each of them), both of > them are very emotional, and they are, of course, both very deeply > loyal to their friends. I think that they are actually very much > alike. I think my biggest issue with Harry and Hermione getting together is the fact that, while we can argue all night about who, if anyone, Hermione is attracted to, Ron clearly is attracted to Hermione. Now Ron has already had some jealousy issues with Harry, which came to a boiling point in GoF, but, while Ron has realized that these issues are not worth not being friends with Harry over, I don't think Ron has necessarily gotten entirely over them. If Harry and Hermione get together, I think it would be just too cruel --on both JK's part and Harry's. I wouldn't blame Ron a bit for being hideously pissed off at Harry, and I would hope that both Harry and JK value the friendship between Harry and Ron more than that. Even if Ron could get over it, it would destroy the balance in their relationship-- Harry is the centerpiece in their relationship as far as he is the leader and they are his sidekicks. If Hermione becomes something more than Ron to Harry, it might not make Ron mean less absolutely speaking, but it will relatively. Ron just doesn't deserve to be made to feel any more secondary and overlookable than he already has. Besides, Ron is capable of standing up to Hermione's bossiness in a way that Harry has never prooved himself capable--he's too passive for Hermione. I imagine that Harry would be something of whipped puppy in a more than friends relationship with Hermione. a From aboutthe1910s at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 05:12:31 2004 From: aboutthe1910s at yahoo.com (aboutthe1910s) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 05:12:31 -0000 Subject: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105597 Kyntor: > This has been mentioned before (if I remember correctly, it was long > time ago), but I think that it bears repeating. The Harry Potter > Series was originally intended for children. In order to appeal to > children some of the character traits are exaggerated (as in all > children's literature). Because of this fact, some of the > development of certain characters is flawed. Now that JKR is gearing > her books toward a little bit older crowd, she is stuck with some > inconsistencies. In this interview: http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1999/1099-connectiontransc.html JK clearly states: "When I started writing it, I had never thought of writing for children." I don't think it's fair to write the relationshp between Snape, Dumbledore, and Harry off as inconsistent just yet. I'm not saying it isn't possible, I'm just saying that there is still a lot that JK knows that we do not. a From adanabbett at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 05:14:38 2004 From: adanabbett at yahoo.com (Adan) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 05:14:38 -0000 Subject: COS musings/questions (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105598 leb wrote: > In a later book the sword of Gryffindor is displayed in a glass > case in DD's office. Was the sword always on display there or > did Harry summon it out of thin air when he literally pulled it > out of the hat in CoS and now DD has it encased as an heirloom > keepsake. Since the hat and the sword both belonged to Godric then > it could be plausible that it materialized from nowhere instead of > being summoned from DD's office. Well, I don't think that it was ever concretely pointed out that there was a sword in Dumbledore's office, so it's hard to say if it was there. Personally, I think Harry *did* just pull it out of the hat. Adan, thinking the sortings were probably much more comfortable after that... From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 07:48:45 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 07:48:45 -0000 Subject: Bertha, Florence, Frank, Alice, Bella, Rudolphus... and Snape? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105599 Florence is the girl mentioned by Bertha Jorkins in DD's Pensieve memory: ---------------------------------- GoF, Ch. 30: Instantly, a figure rose out of it, a plump, scowling girl of about sixteen, who began to revolve slowly, with her feet still in the basin. She took no notice whatsoever of Harry or Professor Dumbledore. When she spoke, her voice echoed as Snape's had done, as though it were coming from the depths of the stone basin. "He put a hex on me, Professor Dumbledore, and I was only teasing him, sir, I only said I'd seen him kissing Florence behind the greenhouses last Thursday..." "But why. Bertha," said Dumbledore sadly, looking up at the now silently revolving girl, "why did you have to follow him in the first place?" ------------------------------------ There are several pre-OotP Florence theories in the Hypothetic Ally section of the old HpfGU site: http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/hypotheticalley.html#florence But I've noticed that The Usual Suspects are the Marauders and Snape. This doesn't seem likely to me. Bertha looks "about sixteen" in the Pensieve. Sirius says (GoF, 19) that Bertha was "a few years above James and me". Now, "a few years" is certainly more than one year, probably more than two. This puts the Marauders and Snape no more than 13 at the time of the celebrated kiss, possibly less. Of course, 13 is not too early for kisses (I can testify that even 8 is not too early for kisses ;-) ) but it IS less likely. Besides, even a nosy girl like Bertha couldn't care less, at 16, about the love life of the 13 yrs old kids. JKR could have easily written Bertha at the same age with the Marauders, Lily and Snape, but she chose to make her several years older. This suggests to me that Florence and her mysteries kisser are also in Bertha's age group - 16 at the time. And 16 is THE age for kissing behind greenhouses. So who are the contenders? I'm not aware of any canon regarding the age of Alice and Frank Longbottom, but I somehow have the impression that they were a few years older than Lily and James. Neville and Harry are of the same age, and the Potters had Harry in a pretty young age. But unlike Lily and James, the Longbottoms were both aurors, which takes three years of hard training. So they most likely were older than the Potters. This puts them in approximately the same age group with Bertha and (assumingly) Florence. Did Frank Kissed Florence? If so, why did he hex Bertha? Was he afraid of Alice? Next. Here is what Sirius had to say about Snape's gang of Slytherins: ------------------------------------------------- (GoF, Ch. 27): "Snape knew more curses when he arrived at school than half the kids in seventh year, and he was part of a gang of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be Death Eaters." Sirius held up his fingers and began ticking off names. "Rosier and Wilkes - they were both killed by Aurors the year before Voldemort fell. The Lestranges - they're a married couple - they're in Azkaban. Avery - from what I've heard he wormed his way out of trouble by saying he'd been acting under the Imperius Curse - he's still at large. -------------------------------------------------- The "gang" word suggests they were all in the same year, the year of Snape, Lily and the Marauders. But again, I have the impression that Bella, at least, is older than Sirius. Why? Lets see. Andromeda Black was "Sirius' favorite cousin" and she's the mother of Tonks, who is at least 20 (again, auror training takes 3 years), so Andromeda is probably slightly older than James and Lily. Bella is to the left from her sister Andromeda in the Black family tree. I don't know anything about traditional family trees, but doesn't this imply that she's older than Andromeda? (BTW, this puts Narcissa, who is to the right from Andromeda in the tree, as the youngest of the three sisters, about the same age with the Marauders. Hmm). Also, in Snape's Pensive memory Harry doesn't recognize Bellatrix in the OWL exam, nor does any of the "gang" come to help Snape outside when he is bullied by James. So perhaps Snape was the young kid in an older gang because he was so good with the Dark Arts? It is likely (though not necessary) that Rudolphus was not much younger than his future wife. Now the options are beginning to look really interesting. Did Rudolphus kiss Florence? He's just the type to hex Bertha. And if Bertha had spread the kiss story, I wouldn't bet on Florence's chances against Bella. Or was it Avery who kissed Florence? Or Rosier or Wilkes? Or was it Bella (naah, just kidding... it IS in character but Bertha specifically said "he"). And don't forget Frank and Alice. We have here two future married couples, one of which tortured the second to insanity. The whole Longbottoms affair starts looking like a school buddies reunion. Were old personal grudges instrumental as well as tactical considerations and plain sadism? And remember: Rosier and Wilkes were killed by aurors, a year before the fall of LV. Which aurors? We know that Moody was involved in Evan Rosier's last battle. Rosier took out a chunk out of Moody's nose, but it never says that Moody was the one who actually killed him, and about Wilkes' death we know nothing. It could easily be Frank, or Alice, who killed them. Add revenge to the list of optional motives. The way I read the Pensieve account, it is not the kiss that's important, and maybe not even the hex. DD says sadly: "but why, why did you have to follow him in the first place". With interesting wording by JKR, Harry notices immediately after that how old and frail DD is. It seems that this petty incident set in motion some important and very grave development, such as the attack on the Longbottoms and its consequences. But where is Florence today? And does Snape have also a part in this sad story, not because he kissed Florence (which I don't believe; he was then 13 at most) but because he was a member of this "gang"? Does anybody have the feeling that we're missing several hundred pages of back story here? Speculations will be appreciated, Neri From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 05:49:35 2004 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 05:49:35 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105600 Kyntor: > Judging James by that one pensieve scene is about as crazy as > judging Snape solely on the fact that he became a death eater. > Both leaves us with incomplete pictures of the characters > involved. As far as who started the rivalry between Snape and > James, I would guess that both party's hands were dirty. Katie: You're quite right. I'm sure James is a much better person than I give him credit for, and it *is* unfair to judge him based on one appearance. I hope JKR adds some more about him (and Lily, for that matter) in the next book. I still think he and Sirius are being terrible bullies in that scene, though. -Katie who'd prefer mild physical injuries to humiliation any day From jlawlor at gmail.com Sun Jul 11 06:00:39 2004 From: jlawlor at gmail.com (James Lawlor) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 01:00:39 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Boggart/ Patronus Musings - Quote Lupin In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96773c88040710230028fd3dd3@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105601 No quoting, because I'm just sort of replying to the thread in general. In other words, I'm too lazy to spend the next 15 minutes compiling quotes. I hope that's acceptable :D Anyway, regarding the discussion of corporeal Patronus...es....Patronii?... Whatever. I'm certain that Dumbledore is able to produce a corporeal Patronus - and I would guess that Lupin could as well. I think that the Patronus Charm can be purposely cast in a weaker state by a powerful Wizard. A Patronus can kill an Dementor, correct? Or if not "kill", destroy or get rid of, at least. When the dementors swarmed the Quiddich field in PoA, Dumbledore couldn't vaporize them all (as much as he would have liked to, I'm sure) since they were on loan from the MoM and (arguably) "protecting" the school. So he just used a non-corporeal Patronus to get their attention and scare them off. Same with Lupin on the train - perhaps he didn't want to destroy the Dementor, just get it out of the compartment and away from Harry and everyone else. (Or it could easily be that he was weak from the phase of the moon and was conserving his energy). And Dumbledore seems to be the type who prefers not to show how powerful he is both out of humility (he has his "arrogant moments" - but they are mostly in good humor) and the desire to conceal how powerful he really is. He probably doesn't want the entire student body having the "Holy crap, mate! Did you see what Dumbledore did? He's really strong!" conversation for a month. It probably serves him well at times for people to think he's a bit senile and "a barmy old codger". - James Lawlor jlawlor at gmail.com From Meliss9900 at aol.com Sun Jul 11 08:03:31 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 04:03:31 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Was Harry Born a Muggle? Message-ID: <1c6.1ba043c7.2e224e53@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105602 In a message dated 07/11/2004 2:26:36 AM Central Daylight Time, gelite67 at yahoo.com writes: > My alternative theory is that LV got it wrong and Neville was the > person referred to in the prophesy. Harry was born a Muggle but > became a wizard when LV transferred some of his powers to him (marked > him as his equal). LV could only kill the infant who was mentioned > in the prophesy; since Harry wasn't the infant, LV couldn't kill > him. There are references to LV killing Muggles, but no other > references to him killing infants, I don't think. > > Just a theory . . . ready to be shot down. > > Angie > > The prophecy only warned that a child would be born at the end of the 7th month with the power to destroy the dark lord, it didn't specify which child. It left it up to Voldemort to chose which one. 'mark him as his equal" I read that to mean that if LV had selected Neville then Neville would have had the power to destroy him. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ellencs44 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 06:58:18 2004 From: ellencs44 at yahoo.com (ellencs44) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 06:58:18 -0000 Subject: No, I'm not defending Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105603 But..... Regarding the Pensieve scene, I haven't been able to read all of the posts, it's getting too late, and I have to be up early (flimsy excuse, I know) but I had to post this. What the encounter between Sirius, James, and Snape really reminds me of, more than anything else, is the scene in GoF at the World Cup, with the DEs. James and Sirius are doing to Snape exactly what was done to the muggles at the world cup. And for just as spurious a reason (Sirius was bored). It wasn't an innocent fight between hot-headed boys, it was a scene of one person being assaulted, controlled, and humiliated by two others, for amusement's sake. The only difference I saw was the ages of those involved. But by the age of fifteen, I'd expect at least a little more fear of authority from James. Seems like he must have grown up with very little reason to fear reprisal for his misdeeds. In other words, spoiled rotten. Now, as far as Snape being able to use that sort of thing happening to him as a child, to excuse his behavior as an adult, sorry, won't wash. If he is, as DD says, a skilled Occlumens, then he has the ability to not only control his emotions, but to rid himself of them, he says himself in OoTP that in order to learn Occlumency, he must rid himself of emotion every night before going to bed. If he is capable of this, he is certainly capable of doing so while teaching class. Besides which, he's a grown-up now, and makes his own decisions and choices. I find it kind of hard, thinking thoughts like these, to really like either one of them, except as far as interesting characters. Ellen From patientx3 at aol.com Sun Jul 11 08:48:40 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 08:48:40 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105604 Valky wrote: >>James and Sirius approached Snape with a single question, a baiting one apparently, but indeed just a question. Snape reached for his wand to engage in battle face to face. James outdrew him. The attack *started* from both ends at the same time. The ensuing events have little to do with that. [snip] James wand was not drawn before Snape reached for his. Again I reply James outdrew Snape. James has every right to cast the first spell, he won the draw.<< HunterGreen: I think we may just have different interpretations of the text. From what I read, it appeared that James was looking for a fight, and Snape was just being reactionary (pulling out his wand because he knew James was about to attack). Snape had no choice but to pull out his wand, James was going to attack him either way, that's why he got his attention. AND, there's no indication that James "outdrew" Snape, James might very well have had his wand out already. [OotP chpt 28, pg 645/6, us ed.] " Snape was on his feet again, and was stowing the OWL paper in his bag. As he emerged from the shadows of the bushes and set off across the grass, Sirius and James stood up. Lupin and Wormtail remained sitting: Lupin was still staring down at his book, though his eyes were not moving and a faint frown line had appeared between his eyebrows. Wormtail was looking from Sirius and James to Snape with a look of avid anticipation on his face. 'All right Snivellus?' said James loudly. Snape reacted so fast it was as though he had been expecting an attack: dropping his bag, he plunged his hand inside his robes and his wand was halfway into the air when James shouted 'Expelliarmus!' " Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying by any means that there weren't times that Snape *did* attack James without reason, and that they didn't have actual duels, but in this case he didn't really have a choice. Had it been up to him, he would have quietly walked off. He was *pulled* into the fight because James and Sirius wanted to have a little fun. HunterGreen previously: > Then their actions > are certainly concerning, first of all its two against one Valky responded: >>It is always James against Snape. Sirius laughs at James victory in disarming Snape so majestically. Snape dives for his wand again but Sirius throws the Impedimenta Jinx. He doesn't want Snape to get his wand back, he's not here to fight he's here to pick Snape apart psychologically with *words*.<< HunterGreen: You are correct there, but consider this: if Snape had hit James with the impedimenta curse, do you think Sirius would have just stood back and not helped him? Valky wrote (about the 'deadliness' of Snape's spell that cut James' face): >>Isn't it funny that we can only answer conjecture about Snape with more darn conjecture. Wouldn't we just love to know exactly what was going on with that boy. Seriously though, I doubt it. I see distinct parallels between the way Snape fights in COS and the way James fights in the pensieve. And between the way Sirius talks in the pensieve and the way Snape talks in all the books since we've seen him, except in the pensieve. Where is the dry wit and drips of sarcasm from super intellectual surprisingly courageous Snape in the pensieve?<< HunterGreen: You know, that is a good question. Maybe his cool sarcasm requires him to be in a calmer, more rational state of mind. All of that goes out the window when he's upset at the end of PoA...but not when he's upset in OotP (he manages two quips before throwing Harry out of his office), so perhaps it did come with age. It would be interesting to see a different pensieve scene, one not so humilating for Snape. There had to be a time that he won, >>Snape learned James' way sometime between the pensieve scene and the current day, he wasn't using it then. Snape adopted Sirius' ways sometime between then and now, also. The boy in the pensieve scene was a dangerous fellow, of this I am absolutely certain. His weapon of choice is the one he issues from his wand and it is as fierce and devilish as the whip of his tongue as an adult, his future weapon of choice.<< HunterGreen: I will concede that Snape was a dangerous teenager (ditto to his adult self, just far more controlled), but I doubt he'd be hitting James with a really damaging curse in front of so many witnesses. In any case, I really don't begrude him that, because (from his perception, perhaps not in reality) his life/health was in danger, whereas James' wasn't. James had no reason to use dangerous spells, at least not while he had control of the situation. Valky: >>What matters, in the context of my statement, is that Snape IS an example, because he is known for his involvement in this part of the WW.<< HunterGreen: But was he at *fifteen*? Yes, he was a few years later, but do we know that at this point he was? He was just part of a "gang of Slytherins", whatever they might have done in the future doesn't exactly apply here. Besides, I don't think that was what motivated the attack. That might have been why James disliked him, but I very much doubt James was trying to punish him for anything. It was all entertainment for James, it was Snape that was taking it seriously. Valky: >>as an adult he has decided that the best and fastest way is to disarm your opponent, as James does. see COS The Duelling Club. In the end even Snape disagrees with you Del and agrees with James.<< HunterGreen: Good point. Perhaps Snape learned something from this incident. However, after disarming and using impedimenta, if this were a *real* duel, James would have won, and would be expected to *stop* the duel. He won, its over. But it wasn't a duel, Snape never consented to anything of the sort (he was defending himself, not dueling), and James' intent was only amusement, not an actual fight. Huntergreen previously: > Dumbledore not punishing Sirius seriously enough > (in Snape's opionion) after the > prank incident certainly didn't help. Valky: >>It is our choices that make us what we are. DD leaves people to their bad choices. Including Snape choosing to enter the Shreiking Shack despite, that he knew it was dangerous, and Sirius choice to send him there. You see DD cannot seduce young Snape to the side of good with a good lashing of Sirius for Snapes gratification. Then it wouldn't be the side that DD is on would it? My point is it could never have helped Snape if he did, it would just have created another temptation in Snapes path, he didn't need more temptation.<< HunterGreen: I agree with you. Don't misunderstand me here, I don't think that DD should have necessarily done more to Sirius (especially since we don't know exactly what he did--whatever it was we just know he didn't suceed in making Sirius understand the extremity of his actions, but if James and Lupin can't make him see that, then DD has no chance), I think that by Sirius not gettig expelled Snape felt more bitter and hateful to the side of good, and felt no loyalty to DD at that point (I doubt he recognized his fault in all of it either, which was being out-of-bounds at night, and getting into things which are none of his business). I don't think there was anything Dumbledore could have done then to stop Snape from going down the path he was on....Snape sort of had to find out that was the wrong way on his own. >>Actually I am inclined to see Snapes first day at Hogwarts in a very similar way to Hermione and Harry's ie the sorting hat says...... hmmm now where shall I put you..... You would do well in Gryffindor... very brave you are....<< HunterGreen: I can see that perhaps with Sirius, but Snape (especially young Snape) is *very* Slytherin. It isn't always a bad thing you know. SPEAKING of his (and James/Sirius/Lupin/Peter/Lily)'s first day of school, it would be really nice to have a pensieve for *that* day. I am quite curious how the James/Snape fued got started (and why Snape focuses so much more energy onto James than he does onto Sirius who appears just as bad). >>Valky Who took a full hour just writing her reply to this post. WOW! HUNTER!<< (o; You got me to take some time on my reply as well. Glad to see my one post in the last week got some attention. -Rebecca From patientx3 at aol.com Sun Jul 11 09:22:21 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 09:22:21 -0000 Subject: Absolutist/Boggart&Patronus/HappyMarriage/Floo$/Evil/NameMagic/Martyrdom/Rats In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105605 Andromeda wrote: >>This appears to me to possibly be a big difference between the upbringings of Harry and those of Tom Riddle and Sirius Black (some posters have been discussing the similarities/differences). However much the Dursleys detested and abused Harry, they did love each other and Dudley. Tom and Sirius had no such examples, as far as we know.<< HunterGreen: I tend to believe that Sirius, at least, didn't have a particularily traumatic childhood. We have very limited knowledge of them, but just because they were rich pure-blood enthusiasts doesn't mean they didn't love their children. We have a good example of such a family in the Malfoys, who do appear to love Draco. Yes, Sirius did run away, but that was after he started radically disagreeing with their beliefs. And his mother was upset enough by his leaving to blast his name off the tapestry. Would she had bothered if she didn't care about him? From the little we know of child-Sirius he doesn't show any signs of being abused or unloved. He may have been perfectly happy with his family until he went to school (and realized how odd their ideals were). >>Sirius, for heaven's sake, grew up in a house where they cut off the servants' heads when they got too old. And put them on the wall. Urgh! And people expect him to behave like a normal person???!!<< HunterGreen: But for the most part he does. I think Sirius just doesn't think things out very well. As in the case of the prank, he just thought it would "serve Snape right" (which, if the situation were less dire, it would), and didn't go far enough to realize the full impact of it (like Snape dying or being bitten and turned into a werewolf himself, and what would happen to Lupin in either of those scenarios). Adult Sirius continues to do that, with the secret-keeper switch and going after Peter before considering his own innocence first, and so on. I doubt this is dictated by his childhood, seems to be more of a trait of his than anything else, just a part of his personality. From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Sun Jul 11 09:10:24 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 11 Jul 2004 09:10:24 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? Message-ID: <20040711091024.22738.qmail@webmail9.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105606 >> Del replies : >> I wonder why he didn't use it on James in a much more >> quiet place and time ...? Amey: Quiet place and time? Could he find James alone for that? I am sure James would either be accompanied by Sirius or Remus (I don't think Peter would help much), or was with Lily. In any case it is hard to get him alone, and impossible to *get him* if he is with somebody. >> Del replies : >> It's *James* that broke the rules of fair duelling : he didn't let his >> opponent get into position before attacking *2 on 1* AND *without >> provocation* >> >> Yep, after having been attack for no reason, by 2 people, who didn't >> leave him any time to get into position. James and Sirius played dirty >> right from the beginning, Snape followed suit. Amey: 'All right, Snivellus?' said James loudly. Snape reacted so fast it was as though he had been expecting an attack: dropping his bag, he plunged his hand inside his robes and his wand was halfway into the air when James shouted, 'Expelliarmus!' Snape's wand flew twelve feet into the air and fell with a little thud in the grass behind him. Sirius let out a bark of laughter. 'Impedimenta!' he said, pointing his wand at Snape, who was knocked off his feet halfway through a dive towards his own fallen wand. 1. So, there is no mention that James or Sirius had their wands out before Snape did. 2. It was neven 1 vs 2, in normal duel (don't know about wizard duel) 1 vs 2 defination is 2 persons attacking 1 *at the same time*. And James and Sirius never attacked Snape together. So, they didn't play dirty if we consider only rules, but yes, they attacked without reason. 'She started going out with him in seventh year,' said Lupin. 'Once James had deflated his head a bit,' said Sirius. 'And stopped hexing people just for the fun of it,' said Lupin. 'Even Snape?' said Harry. Well,' said Lupin slowly, 'Snape was a special case. I mean, he never lost an opportunity to curse James so you couldn't really expect James to take that lying down, could you?' So James became less of an idiot, but Snape was a special case always. I doubt Draco would leave a chance of attacking Harry. I am not defending what James did there, it's just that both were equally *idiots* (or berks if you choose :)) >> Del replies : >> No. They were making people laugh at Snape, the person. Amey: Yes, it was a personal attack, not generalised. >> HunterGreen: >> As for teenage Snape, well, considering that he came to school with >> all those ideas of dark magic, who's to say he wasn't raised that >> way? (and yes, I know Sirius was too, but Sirius was sorted into >> Gryffindor, and thus had someone else to make an impression on him). >> >> Dumbledore not >> punishing Sirius seriously enough (in Snape's opionion) after the >> prank incident certainly didn't help. Amey: The point here is that he wasn't sorted into Slytherin. (I hear people shouting here... listen to me fully people). What I mean is if he was so interested in Dark Arts, he must have Wizard background, and must have heard about the Hogwarts houses and their qualities? If he had choice (like Harry), why didn't he choose any other house? (Ravenclaw would have suited him surely) So it is as much question of choice. So he decided to go that way, and chose his friends, peers himself. That is the difference between him and Sirius (considering they have similar Dark background). And as for punishment, I doubt anything less than Dementor's kiss would be enough in Snape's opinion. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Sun Jul 11 09:13:08 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 11 Jul 2004 09:13:08 -0000 Subject: Malfoy, Sirius and Ron&Harry friendship Message-ID: <20040711091308.24801.qmail@webmail31.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105607 >> Cathy >> I want to know why there were three broomsticks in the winged key room. Three. Seems a bit >> odd, doesn't it? As though DD KNEW HRH would be the ones to go after it. Nearly anyone >> >> else would would be trying to get the stone would be acting alone, why would they need three >> broomsticks. Amey: "They?re not birds!" Harry said suddenly. "They?re keys! Winged keys? look carefully. So that must mean..." he looked around the chamber while the other two squinted up at the flock of keys. "... yes?look! Broomsticks! We?ve got to catch the key to the door!" (SS/PS) So we don't know exactly how many brromsticks are there. >> Siriusly Snapey Susan >> What did Mr. > Malfoy hope to gain from passing on the Diary? If he was hoping to bring Tom > back so he could become LV again (and the killings) would that make Mr. Malfoy a > 'good' DE? Amey: Good "DE" as in he is good person but DE (like Snape) or he is loyal DE? Sorry, couldn't help it. Anyways I think that is what kept him from getting too much chastised in graveyard. And also, he is the leader of the DEs in DoM, even if Bella is there. So I think he is something more than just plain DE. Might be LV's right hand. (Any connections to *Hand* in Prophesy???) >> SSSusan: >> Thanks for clarifying. I didn't THINK there was canon for its being >> subjective. If it *were* subjective, then Harry's concern makes >> sense. That is, if it's SNAPE'S subjective memory and he [Snape] >> moves, Harry is afraid he'll have to "go with Snape." Turned out >> that WASN'T how the Pensieve operated, and Harry was able to roam. >> I take that as evidence for its objectivity. Amey: Yes, I was also thinking the same thing and came across this: Harry looked anxiously behind him again. Snape remained close by, still buried in his exam questions - but this was Snape's memory and Harry was sure that if Snape chose to wander off in a different direction once outside in the grounds, he, Harry, would not be able to follow James any further. To his intense relief, however, when James and his three friends strode off down the lawn towards the lake, Snape followed, still poring over the exam paper and apparently with no fixed idea of where he was going. By keeping a little ahead of him, Harry managed to maintain a close watch on James and the others. So, we don't have any canon either way yet. >> "harp66" wrote: >> Is the relationship between Harry and Ron a good model of teenage male friendship? Amey: Hi, I was that age not long before and if I remember right, the conversations we had among best friends were something like, sports, studies, books(because we were interested in reading) and teasing each other by some girl's name. I mean, girls were pretty low at that time on our meeting agenda, teasing part apart. But, that kind of conversation won't help story line anyways, so it is not there (at least that's what I think). When it helped story (like Sirius and James talking about Lily), it is there. It might come in later. >> Lee: >> There is a fair point I suppose about that, but I am mad at him nonetheless. He should have >> known that he had to be a bit responsible with his life as he, for Harry, was the one thing >> that made him feel like he was not alone when others went home. There was that hope that one >> day he will be cleared and there will be a stage where he can have that father person to go >> shopping with or whatever he may feel needs from adult support-wise. Amey: Saving Harry from danger comes into the deal also. He is harry's godfather, guardian. I don't think the way he was emotionally attached to Harry, he would have sat at 12,GP waiting patiently. It is not possible for anyone as emotional as Sirius to sit patiently (and I don't mean this as a bad thing). Amey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sun Jul 11 09:15:51 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 05:15:51 -0400 Subject: Emotional Intimacy in the HP stories (not necessarily romantic) Message-ID: <000e01c46727$aafcdba0$89c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 105608 Meri said: "Well, here's my theory. If JKR wrote down and published every single conversation that Harry, Ron and Hermione ever had then the books would be so long and inane that *I* would probably give up on them. (Examples: Ron: "Hey, Harry, did you see Parvati today? She looked sweet!" Harry: "Yeah..."; Hermione: "Ron, could you pass me my Arithmancy book, please?") This to me is much like the reason why we hardly ever see Harry bathe or use the men's room. That's sort of an individual activity, and, unlike mealtimes where significant conversation can occur, there really isn't much that can happen in the way of plot advancememnt." Cathy now: My feeling about these books is that JKR found HP's journals and was so amazed at the outcome in the journals, she is giving us the info needed to get through to the end of the story. The good parts, required reading, to find out what happened from the initial attack on Harry to 'the end of the story.' Somewhat like the idea that J.R.R. Tolkien found the Red Book of Westmarch and translated it to produce The Lord of the Rings. So, all in all, I'm areeing with you without that dreaded one-line "I agree" e-mail! We couldn't possibly read it all or we'd still be in the second book. Just looking at how big OotP is, can you imagine the size if 'everything' was included? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From patientx3 at aol.com Sun Jul 11 10:13:45 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 10:13:45 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: <20040711091024.22738.qmail@webmail9.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105609 HunterGreen previously: >> As for teenage Snape, well, considering that he came to school with >> all those ideas of dark magic, who's to say he wasn't raised that >> way? (and yes, I know Sirius was too, but Sirius was sorted into >> Gryffindor, and thus had someone else to make an impression on him). Amey replied: >>The point here is that he wasn't sorted into Slytherin. (I hear people shouting here... listen to me fully people). What I mean is if he was so interested in Dark Arts, he must have Wizard background, and must have heard about the Hogwarts houses and their qualities? If he had choice (like Harry), why didn't he choose any other house? (Ravenclaw would have suited him surely) So it is as much question of choice. So he decided to go that way, and chose his friends, peers himself. That is the difference between him and Sirius (considering they have similar Dark background).<< HunterGreen: You're looking at things too black and white. The Slytherin house *isn't* the "evil house". There have been many, many students in Hogwarts over the years, and since there aren't hundreds and hundreds of evil wizards running around, we can assume that there are plenty of former Slytherins who aren't evil. Slytherin is a house for the ambitious, those with (DD's words from CoS) resourcefulness, determination and a certain disregard for the rules. That doesn't translate into "evil". Besides, a student doesn't 'choose' their house anyway. With Harry, he requested to NOT be put in Slytherin, but there's no proof that the hat would have really put him there anyway. The sorting hat only thought of Slytherin after HARRY mentioned it. Harry never said "could you please put me in Gryffindor?" Harry was a special case any way, not all students get that moment of deliberation. Snape might have been sorted into Slytherin as fast as Draco, with no chance to talk the hat out of it. Sirius probably didn't ask to be put in Gryffindor either, he was sorted there. That's the purpose of the hat--if students could that easily pick their houses Hogwarts would just ask each first year to choose which house they want. I'm not trying to excuse Snape's actions anyway. I'm just trying to explain them. Valky was talking about 'nobility' when it came to Snape and James, and I was trying to show how nobility is subjective. That Snape going for the dark arts and all that may have been the best choice based on his personal experience, and his own ideas of what is 'noble'. Of course, we all know Snape had it the wrong way around, he just took the long way to get to that conclusion. From drednort at alphalink.com.au Sun Jul 11 10:23:12 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 20:23:12 +1000 Subject: Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry in the Contex Message-ID: <40F1A1B0.25588.2991A76@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 105610 The following is a 'near-complete draft' of an essay I've been working on for some time. Comments are appreciated, critcisms are welcome, any additions think should be made are of definite interest. ********** Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry in the Context of the British Public Schools by Shaun Hately (drednort at alphalink.com.au) July 2004 Introduction "My name was down for Eton, you know. I can't tell you how glad I am I came here instead." - Justin Finch-Fletchley The purpose of this essay is to examine Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry, as presented to us in the writings of J.K. Rowling, within the context and traditions of the British 'Public Schools.' It may well be asked what purpose is served by such an essay, and this must therefore be the first question addressed. Briefly, let me first of all outline what is meant by a 'Public School' in this context, because the term has greatly different meanings in different parts of the English speaking world, most notably between the United Kingdom and the United States. In the United Kingdom, the term 'Public School' is applied to schools that are independently financed - that is, their primary source of funding is private in nature, rather than from the government (Sampson, 1962, p.179). These are independent schools, largely funded by tuition fees levied on the parents of the students who attend the school. To people outside Britain, and particularly in the United States, the term may seem counterintuitive in many ways, but the term has a great deal of history and tradition behind it. Explaining these reasons goes beyond the scope of this introduction. It is simply necessary that those reading it understand the way the term 'Public School' is used. It seems obvious to many people who are familiar with both the Harry Potter books and the institutional qualities of British Public Schools that J.K. Rowling has, to a greater or less extent, chosen to use the British Public School model in considering how she presents Hogwarts to her readership. It must be stated immediately that Hogwarts is not a perfect exemplar of the Public School tradition - while there is a substantial influence, it cannot be assumed that Hogwarts always follows Public School traditions. It is a unique school in many ways, but there are enough influences from the tradition that an awareness of the traditions of such schools may serve to enhance the understanding and appreciation of the school for some readers. The incredible international success of the Harry Potter phenomenon means that a significant proportion of the readers of these books are unlikely to have any real understanding of the influence of Public School traditions on Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry. In fact, the proportion of readers with a real understanding of such schools is probably quite small. The wide appeal of the Harry Potter books indicates that this lack of understanding is hardly fatal to the enjoyment of the books, but this doesn't mean that even a limited understanding could not increase people's enjoyment and understanding of the series. Hence this essay. It is probably useful for me to outline my 'qualifications' to write this essay. Why do I feel that I can give people an increased insight into Hogwarts as a British Public School? Please understand that I do not claim to be an expert on such matters. My interest in this area is purely amateur. There are many, many people better qualified to write such an essay than myself, and I would be quite please to see others do so. However while I am not an expert, I am probably better informed about such schools than the average reader of the Harry Potter novels. I have had a keen interest in such schools for nearly twenty years, and had the immense good fortune to be educated at a school that was founded on the British Public School traditions. This was one of a number of Australian schools set up in the late 19th Century, as copies of the British Public Schools. My experience may not have been entirely pure, but it was, at least, a fairly reasonably facsimile. And so I do understand the traditions and the history far better than most people do. Also, as a child, I read a significant number of the 'school stories' set in such schools that were published in the United Kingdom in the late 19th and early to mid 20th centuries. This is an absolutely huge literary genre consisting of hundreds, if not thousands, of novels that draw on the British Public School tradition. While the original traditions and practices themselves are of interest, and are the topic of this essay, the existence of this extremely large body of literature (Auchmuty & Wotton, 2000) meant that an understanding of such schools (or at least various literary interpretations of them) was passed on to a far larger group of British (and Empire and Commonwealth) children than the relatively small number who actually attended such schools. Given J.K. Rowling's own educational experiences (Smith, 2001), it seems likely that most of her understanding of such traditions came through the filters of this body of children's literature. Since I first became involved in the Harry Potter fan community, I have noticed on numerous occasions that a significant number of readers - most often, though not always Americans - have a very limited understanding of the traditions that Hogwarts seems to be built on. This is certainly not surprising - it is very unusual for a book based on such traditions to enjoy such widespread success. In actual fact, I am often surprised that a book based on such traditions has been so successful, even among people who have no idea of these traditions. It is perhaps a reflection of the strength of other areas of J.K. Rowling's writing and influence that the books have been so successful despite their somewhat inaccessible setting. The level of understanding (or lack thereof) shown varies widely. But, on occasion, I have encountered fans who believe that concepts like prefects and houses as shown in the Harry Potter novels are literary inventions of J.K. Rowling, rather than common historical features of the British Public Schools (which have, in many cases, filtered into other schools as well). Because of this, in writing this essay, I have chosen to examine several of the concepts and traditions of the British Public Schools that are seen in the Harry Potter novels, either in a 'pure form' or in one that has been shaped by Hogwarts in particular. I hope that some fans will find this interesting. It is my hope that reading this essay will give those readers unfamiliar with the traditions and practices inherent in such schools, a greater understanding that will aid them in understanding Hogwarts. Before continuing, I would like to make the following points. No two Public Schools are completely identical. All have their own unique traditions and practices. In writing this essay, I will be focusing on points of commonality between such schools. It should not be assumed however that such points apply equally to all schools. This essay is based on generalizations. Specifics can differ widely. When considering Hogwarts in the context of such schools, this also applies there as well. It should also be realised that a great deal of the material in this essay is historical in nature. While these schools often tend to put great influence on maintaining their traditions, they have changed over time. Many practices described in this essay are historical, and should not be assumed to accurately represent such schools in the modern day. By the same token, however, the maintenance of traditions means that some practices that seem extremely old fashioned to our modern eyes may still be going on in some schools. Historically speaking, most schools were boys' schools. Girls' schools were rarer, and coeducation very unusual. For this reason, most historical studies have focused on boys schools, and in many ways, the traditions Hogwarts draws on are those most commonly seen in boys school. Because of the historical reality, many statements and quotations in this essay may refer to boys, rather than the coeducational reality we see at Hogwarts. No implication should read into this, beyond that of historical accuracy. Historical Context "You all know, of course, that Hogwarts was founded over a thousand years ago - the precise date is uncertain - by the four greatest witches and wizards of the age." - Professor Binns A thousand year history certainly makes Hogwarts a very old school, but several of Britain's Public Schools have a history of at least similar length. The King's School of Canterbury claims, with some justification a foundation date of AD597 (Gathorne-Hardy, 1977, p.22). From around the time Hogwarts was established, the Wizarding World was gradually withdrawing from contact with the Muggle World culminating in the International Statute of Wizarding Secrecy of 1692 (Rowling, 2001, p.16). It seems likely therefore that Hogwarts had little direct connection to Muggle schools at any stage of its development. However we also know that from a very early stage in its development, Hogwarts took in some students with Muggle parentage (Rowling, 1998, p.114). Historically the older public schools all developed relatively independently of each other. There was some cross pollination of ideas, but it was generally relatively informal. Hogwarts is not unique in developing independently - in this, it fits neatly into the public school pattern. The question that is raised by acknowledging this is why, if Hogwarts seems to have develop largely independently of other schools, I am making an attempt in this essay to fit Hogwarts into the context of public schools. The reason for doing so is simple. The influence of the public schools on Hogwarts is obvious and self evident. The existence of the prefect system and the house system both of which developed in the public schools indicates that Hogwarts must have either been influenced by these schools or must have influenced them. From a literary standpoint, it is reasonable to suppose that the reason Hogwarts seems like a traditional public school in many ways is because J.K. Rowling used the tradition of school stories in literature to design her school. But such meta-analysis is somehow unsatisfying to many readers. People want literature to appear real in the sense that it should be internally consistent. We are shown a school of magic with obvious influences from our own Muggle world. Some of us naturally wish to find explanations for those influences. In essence, as Hogwarts is shown as a school with public school traditions and a school with a history longer than many of the most famous public schools and rivaling the most enduring of such schools, it is a reasonable assumption to assume that Hogwarts was part of the overall evolutionary process of such schools. It was undoubtedly an unusual school from the time of its establishment, but it was close enough to the evolutionary process to show signs of having been influenced by it. The most obvious source for this influence is through the presence of children with Muggle parentage at the school from its inception. Perhaps if Salazar Slytherin had been allowed to have his way, Hogwarts would be even more unique than it is (Rowling, 2003, p.185). It is now time to move onto discussing particular aspects of Hogwarts, and how these aspects have appeared and evolved within the public schools. Prefects "Erm - Harry - could I borrow Hedwig so I can tell Mum and Dad? They'll be really pleased - I mean prefect is something they can understand." - Hermione Granger The existence of prefects at Hogwarts is one of the clearest signs of its influence from the public schools. Prefects are no longer merely a public school phenomena - they have spread into many other schools, but they were a creation - or perhaps it is better to say they were an evolutionary product - of the public schools. Like many aspects of these schools, precisely dating the origin of prefects and prefect systems is difficult. Evidence of the existence of senior boys within the schools with formalized special powers - referred to by various terms including prefect, praepostor, and monitor - can be seen as far back as 1560 at Westminster (Gathorne-Hardy, 1977, p.61). By 1668 at Winchester, the system was showing signs of real formality and tradition (Falkus, 1971, p.59). Prefect systems - giving senior pupils powers of discipline and control over their fellows - was partly a response to the very small numbers of masters (teachers) relative to pupil numbers in the schools of those times. Some schools had hundreds of pupils and only a handful of masters to control them. Placing routine discipline in the hands of trustworthy boys relieved the pressure on the masters. It was also considered to have the positive side-effect of reducing the prevalence of bullying, by giving older boys legitimate authority, although some have claimed that, in effect in some schools at least, this served to simply legitimize bullying. By the late 18th and early 19th century, prefect systems, whether for good or ill, existed in most of the established public schools (Gathorne-Hardy, 1977, p.61). The modern system however is often considered to be the invention of Thomas Arnold, Headmaster of Rugby from 1828-1842. Indeed, Arnold is often credited as the motive force behind the entire 'modern' public school system (Hardy, 1911, p.19). To an extent, this is unwarranted - Arnold was one of many innovators both at that time, and at other points in history. His influence was significant but it can be, and often is, overstated. He is symbolic of an entire 19th century movement of educational reform. He did reform the prefect system that existed at Rugby, and that did influence systems elsewhere - but the changes he made should be seen in the context of a constantly evolving system. Hogwarts prefect system is a relatively typical system in most regards. It is slightly unusual in that it draws prefects from the fifth year onwards - in many public schools prefects are drawn only from the eldest pupils, but there are exceptions (Bamford, 1967, p. 65-66). Prefects are typically selected (sometimes elected) for their powers of leadership, or because they are seen as exemplars of the qualities valued by the school, or by their own house (Lambert, 1968, p.153). They are expected to enforce the rules of the school, and are given disciplinary powers (Walford, 1986, p50-51) - in the case of Hogwarts, the power to take House points from their fellow students. Historically in many public schools, prefects had a great deal more disciplinary power - as late as 1966, 62% of public schools surveyed allowed at least some of their prefects to administer corporal punishment (Kalton, 1966). We also know that, at Hogwarts (at least according to some teachers) it is important that the prefect is good behaviour (Rowling, 2003, p.155). In simple terms, though, the system seen at Hogwarts - with prefects chosen from among the senior students in each house, and given both disciplinary power, authority, and privileges because of their position is relatively typical. As is the existence of the even more exalted office of Head Boy and Head Girl. Head Boy and Head Girl "Now, yer mum an' dad were as good a witch an' wizard as I ever knew. Head Boy an' Girl at Hogwarts in their day!" - Rubeus Hagrid Historically this office has often been referred to as the captain of the school or the school captain. As most public schools were single sex establishments, there was no need for titles that included a gender distinction, nor was there much pressure to have two such offices. In most schools such power was vested in one pupil (Lambert, 1968, p. 155). The terms Head Boy and Head Girl however are not uncommon at coeducational establishments, and are not unheard of in single sex schools. We have, so far, been given only a limited insight into the offices of Head Boy and Head Girl at Hogwarts. We know that it does not appear to be necessary for a person to have been a prefect to become head boy or head girl, as James Potter was Head Boy without having been a prefect (Rowling, 1997, p.45; Rowling, 2003, p.155). We know that, along with the prefects, they are given responsibility for the safety of their fellow pupils (Rowling, 1999, p.72), and that the Headmaster has little hesitation in leaving them in charge during an emergency (Rowling, 1999, p.122). The offices seems to be associated with a considerable level of magic power and academic achievement - at least relative to the age of the pupils. Of the five students identified in the books as having held these offices, two - James Potter and Lily Potter nee Evans - are described by Rubeus Hagrid as among the best wizards he ever knew (Rowling, 1997, p.45); Bill Weasley holds a responsible position as a curse breaker at Gringotts (Rowling, 1999, p.12) and is successful enough that he can apparently ignore the conventions of normal wizarding dress (Rowling, 2000, p.59). Percy Weasley moves directly from school into what appears to be a fairly senior entry level position at the Ministry of Magic (Rowling, 2000, p.53) and, like his eldest brother Bill, does unusually well in his exams (Rowling, 1998, p.40). Tom Riddle, of course, went onto become Lord Voldemort (Rowling, 1998, p.231). So it seems that at Hogwarts, the qualities wanted most for these offices is a reasonable level of power and academic achievement, coupled with the fact that they must be someone the Headmaster is willing to entrust with the safety of their fellow students. Historically, it is probably this last factor - that of trust - that is most relevant in the public schools appointments of their school captains. These students, whatever their title, are expected to be trustworthy enough to act for the benefit of their fellow students. Their level of power and responsibility has often been far more than many people would expect to be entrusted to a mere student (Lambert, 1968, p.154). The influence of the senior pupils - in particular those at the level of prefects and Head Boys and Head Girls - is often given prominence as one of the most distinct features of the British public school. Some have even given it credit as one of the defining characteristics of the success of the British Empire in the later half of the 19th Century and the first half of the twentieth (Wilkinson, 1964). We have some indication that similar viewpoints may prevail in the Wizarding World from the existence of the book Prefects Who Gained Power last seen in the possession of Percy Weasley (Rowling, 1998, p.48). Houses "The Sorting is a very important ceremony because, while you are here, your house will be something like your family within Hogwarts. You will have classes with the rest of your house, sleep in your house dormitory and spend free time in your house common room." - Professor Minerva McGonagall Like the existence of prefects, Hogwart's house system is a clear indication of its influence from the British public schools. Like prefects, the house system was an evolutionary product of the public schools, and like prefects, it is something that spread into many other schools from the public schools. The similarity between the concept seen at Hogwarts and that of public schools in general can perhaps best be illustrated by comparing the following quote to that of Professor McGonagall, given above. "To many children in boarding schools the house is the focus of their lives, the small primary unit on which their immediate loyalties, hatreds, activities, and friendships are based." (Lambert, 1968, p.132). Houses evolved in public schools primarily to deal with the problem of how to deal with large numbers of students. The early schools were often small enough that the Headmaster himself could be directly responsible for all of his pupils. As numbers increased, this became more and more impractical, and students began to be split into houses. The name came from the fact that to begin with, these were often houses in the town nearest the school (Gathorne-Hardy, 1977, p.107) but as time went on, it became more and more common for the house to be located in the school, or even to become an administrative unit without a particular physical presence (Walford, 1986, p.116). Hogwarts seems to have a fairly classic house system - the type that was common at public schools in the 19th century, although we have some indications that it may be of far greater antiquity (Rowling, 2003, p.184-187). Pupils are taught to regard the house as something close to a family, they live within their house, and they work within their house. Their successes or their failures reflect upon their house. Sporting competitions are organized along house lines. There are set locations within the school that are the provinces of the various houses. As is the case at Hogwarts, houses in public schools are often (though not always) named after prominent figures of history, either national history, or the history of the particular school (Gathorne-Hardy, 1977, p.249). The personality and beliefs of the Housemaster (or Housemistress) have often been very important in setting the tone and practices of a particular house (Lambert, 1968, p.161). At Hogwarts, while this seems to be the case to some extent, the greater influence seems to be the continuing influence of the four founders. Each house is unique, with unique characteristics that it looks for in its members. Within the public schools, this is often not the case. Some schools assign membership to houses more or less randomly. But in others, the housemaster traditionally has had the power of selecting their own students and this has tended to give some houses at some schools, particularly unique flavours just as is seen at Hogwarts (McConnell, 1967, p.186). So in this regard - having houses that have such a unique flavour with apparently such a long history behind it, Hogwarts does differ from the traditional public school model. But in general terms, the model does apply. Teachers "Professor Severus Snape, master of this school, commands you to yield the information you conceal!" - Professor Severus Snape By longstanding tradition, teachers in public schools are generally referred to as school masters or school mistresses, rather than mere teachers (Walford, 1984, p.115). While at Hogwarts, the more generic term seems to be in common use, the term master still appears to be used occasionally as seen in the above quote, and it survives as part of the terms Headmaster, Headmistress, and similar terms. The appointment of teachers at Hogwarts seems to be virtually entirely in the hands of the Headmaster - at least under normal circumstances in the absence of unusual Educational Decrees (Rowling, J.K. 2003, p.275). Historically this matches the practice of the public schools where appointments were generally largely in the hands of the Headmaster of the day (Gathorne-Hardy, 1977, p.190). It is worth considering here, how Headmasters tended to make their decisions as to the appointment of staff members. Many readers might think it is obvious that certain Hogwarts teachers have had no formalized training as teachers. Historically speaking, this was quite common for public school teachers. Public school masters were regarded as professionals with knowledge based on a theoretical and esoteric knowledge within specific subject areas. Most public school teachers had no formalized teaching qualifications, instead relying on higher degrees (stereotypically a Master of Arts degree from Oxford or Cambridge) to prove they understood their subject (Walford, 1984, p.116). Large numbers of public school masters were themselves the product of public schools (Bamford, 1967, p.121) - something that seems likely to be the case for Hogwarts, if for no other reason, than there does not appear to be any other opportunities for people to acquire the education they need to become qualified in their specialist subjects. Specific skills as a teacher, rather than mere knowledge of the subject being taught, were regarded as non-essential, though valuable if they were present. It was, more or less, assumed that pupils would learn if the teacher knew his subject. Headmasters "Albus Dumbledore is the greatest headmaster Hogwarts has ever had." - Dobby Historically, the Headmaster was the ruler of the public school - often very close to an absolute ruler. Some Headmasters were benevolent, some were tyrants. Many were both. Many have become legendary figures - Thomas Arnold of Rugby has already been mentioned, but others of note included Keate of Eton, Busby of Westminster, Butler of Shrewsbury, and Wharton of Winchester. These were prominent men, often greatly respected - and Dumbledore seems to inspire similar respect in the Wizarding World. The Headmaster of a public school was the fountain of all authority and power. The teachers took their power from him, and were responsible to him. The prefects derived their powers from his appointment. He had the final say on all disciplinary matters, and on all the routine day to day decisions of the school (Bamford, 1967, p.152) Albus Dumbledore, as presented in the Harry Potter books seems to fit neatly into the mould of the great benevolent public school Headmaster. The one major difference is that, unlike many of the historically great Headmasters, he does not seem to be a clergyman (Honey, 1977, p.5) - formalized religion is not addressed in the Harry Potter books. Governors "Dreadful thing, Dumbledore, but the governors feel it's time for you to step aside." - Lucius Malfoy While the Headmaster often had virtually limitless authority over the day to day running of their school, most schools had a group of trustees or governors with ultimate control to appoint, suspend, and remove a Headmaster. In the case of most well known schools, these tended to be prominent men - peers, bishops, and senior military officers were quite common (Bamford, 1967, p.130). Lucius Malfoy's presence as a governor of Hogwarts fits neatly into this model, as does his description of the powers of the governors (Rowling, 1998, p.194). Uniform "Weasley, straighten your hat. Miss Patil, take that ridiculous thing out of your hair." - Professor Minerva McGonagall In common with most public schools, Hogwarts has a set uniform (Rowling, 1997, p.52). The arrival of a list with the clothing items required for school is a common recollection of public school students (Brooke-Taylor, 1977, p.166). Uniforms are a fairly recent development in the life of public schools, first appearing during the 19th Century (Gathorne-Hardy, 1977, p.113). Early uniforms were fairly basic - over time they became ever more standardized. Uniforms served multiple purposes. They encouraged conformity but they also helped students to feel part of their school community. For students away from home in a new environment, this could sometimes be very helpful. Punishment "I've got the form, Headmistress, I've got the form and I've got the whips waiting... oh, let me do it now..." - Argus Filch A classic feature of the British public school, especially in literature based upon it, is the presence of the disciplinary system, and no discussion of the cultural contexts and traditions of the British public school can ignore this. By tradition, the most prevalent form of punishment in the public schools was always corporal punishment - the deliberate infliction of pain as a form of punishment. At Hogwarts, such methods seem to have fallen into disuse. The old punishments have fallen into disuse to the disappointment of Argus Filch (Rowling, 1997, p.181). It is difficult to date when these forms of punishment stopped being used, our only possible indication is a reference to Mr Weasley still carrying marks on his body (Rowling, 2000, p.535) which suggests that this change is relatively modern. The existence of milder forms of corporal punishment still figure in Harry's thoughts - he is worried he is going to be caned by Professor McGonagall after he is caught riding a broom when he was told not to (Rowling, 1997, p.112) - even if they are not actually in current use at Hogwarts. While such punishments may no longer be in use at Hogwarts, because they may seem so extreme to many modern eyes - it is worth putting these punishments into the context of what was actually used in real public schools. Hogwarts is not being presented as historically speaking, an unusually savage or brutal school. Very severe punishment regimes were quite common in historical public schools. Whole books have been written on this subject - a few examples should suffice. Most famously, Moss of Shrewsbury once reportedly inflicted 88 strokes of a birch rod on one of his pupils (Bamford, 1967, p.66). Keate of Eton is known to have flogged 100 boys in one sitting (Gathorne-Hardy, 1977, p.41). Severe punishment lasted until quite recently in some schools. Boys were still being birched at Eton - held down across a block and struck across their bare buttocks - at least as late as the 1960s (McConnell, 1967, p.61). In simple terms, what is described as having happened at Hogwarts historically seems no worse than that which happened at many other schools. In essence, Hogwarts, though both a unique school and a unique literary creation, has obvious influences from real school traditions, and real traditions in school based literature. This essay only scratches the surface, but I hope it has been useful to some people in helping them to better understand how Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry does draw on very real traditions, and a very real culture. References Auchmuty, R. & Wotton. J. (2000). The encyclopaedia of school stories. Aldershot, Hants, England: Ashgate. Bamford, T.W. (1967). Rise of the public schools: A study of boys' public boarding schools in England and Wales from 1837 to the present day. London: Nelson. Brooke-Taylor, T. (1977). Manners Makyth Man? In The world of the public school. (pp.56-78). London: Weidenfeld & Nicolson Ltd. Falkus, M. (1977). Fagging and boy government. In The world of the public school. (pp.56-78). London: Weidenfeld & Nicolson Ltd. Gathorne-Hardy, J. (1977). The public school phenomenon, 597-1977. London: Hodder and Stoughton. Hardy, H.H. (1911). Public school life: Rugby. London: Sir Isaac Pitman & Sons, Ltd. Honey, J.R. de S. (1977). Tom Brown's universe: The development of the public school in the 19th Century. London: Millington Books Limited. Kalton, G. (1966): The public schools: a factual survey of Headmasters' Conference schools in England and Wales. London: Longmans. Lambert, R. (1968). The hothouse society: An exploration of boarding-school life through the boys' and girls' own writings. London: Weidenfeld and Nicolson. McConnell, J.D.R. (1967). Eton: How it works. London: Faber and Faber. Rowling, J.K. (1997). Harry Potter and the philosopher's stone. London: Bloomsbury Publishing Plc. Rowling, J.K. (1998). Harry Potter and the chamber of secrets. London: Bloomsbury Publishing Plc. Rowling, J.K. (1999). Harry Potter and the prisoner of Azkaban. London: Bloomsbury Publishing Plc. Rowling, J.K. (2000). Harry Potter and the goblet of fire. London: Bloomsbury Publishing Plc. Rowling, J.K. (2001). Quidditch through the ages. London: Bloomsbury Publishing Plc. Rowling, J.K. (2003). Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix. London: Bloomsbury Publishing Plc. Sampson, A. (1962). Anatomy of Britain. London: Hodder and Stoughton. Smith, S. (2001). J.K. Rowling: A biography. London: Michael O'Mara. Walford, G. (1984). The changing professionalism of public school teachers. In G. Walford (Ed.), British public schools: policy & practice. (pp.111-135). London: The Falmer Press. Walford, G. (1986). Life in public schools. London: Methuen. Wilkinson, R. (1964). The prefects : British leadership and the public school tradition, a comparative study in the making of rulers. London: Oxford University Press. ********** Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From donpietro69 at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 11 02:59:47 2004 From: donpietro69 at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Lee=20Moyo?=) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 03:59:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes (or Snape-aholics and Siriophiles) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040711025947.27298.qmail@web25110.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105611 SSSusan: I'm curious how you would take DD's remark to Harry, then, near the end of OoP: ************************************ "Snape stopped giving me Occlumency lessons!" Harry snarled. "He threw me out of his office!" "I am aware of it," said DD heavily. "I have already said that it was a mistake for me not to teach you myself...." "Snape made it worse, my scar always hurt worse after lessons with him--... How do you know he wasn't trying to soften me up for Voldemort...." "I trust Severus Snape," said DD simply. "But I forgot--another old man's mistake--that some wounds run too deep for the healing. I thought Professor Snape could overcome his feelings about your father--I was wrong." [US, 833] ************************************ Is this speech of DD's part of the act, then? Or is there *something* going on w/ Snape besides a minor dislike of Harry and an act to maintain for preventing spoiled!Harry? DD said Snape was "too old & clever" to have allowed Sirius' "feeble taunts" to hurt him. How can he turn around a minute later in the conversation and say what he did about Snape's relationship with James? So IS Snape's hatred [or whatever word is appropriate] of James a part of Snape's treatment of Harry or not? Siriusly Snapey Susan Lee: and I am still trying to catch up with the details. Well the main reason besides not spoiling Harry, is that he is safe at the Dursleys and as long as he returns there he is protected by his mother's charm. Which is why LV can not get to him there. The fact that is not going to be spoiled as well is an advantage I think. As for him saying Sirius does not hurt Snape's feelings but that Snape was still hurting from James, well I think that is most likely because James was his worst enermy and they enermity began long ago not to manchine that he saved his life which makes it worse. Where as with Sirius the problem is he knows that he does not like him and they would not mind dueling to the death and there is nothing that he has to be greatfull for from Sirius hance easy for him to disregard any thing he says. and as we have manchined those whonds where when he was young and those things mattered then but not now --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mayeaux45 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 06:54:28 2004 From: mayeaux45 at yahoo.com (mayeaux45) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 06:54:28 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: <563313122.20040710222259@vcem.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105612 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susanne wrote: > > > IMO, Hermione "goes through the trouble" of trying to > change/improve the people around her all the time! > > I think, it's her favorite hobby. ;) > > She constantly tries to get others to work like she does, > tell them what they should be doing (take a nap, instead of > playing Quidditch; preparing for the second task, instead of > enjoying surviving the first for a short while; saying > "Voldemort", instead of avoiding the name, and much more) > and giving "helpful" gifts > > I also don't quite agree that she accepts people as they > are, since she *is* putting a lot of energy into trying to > improve them. > And she is having a hard time accepting Luna and Fleur, and > Lavender and Parvati, for example, and several non-human people. > > And I am curious how you see her as accepting of Malfoy? > Could you explain a little more? Mayeaux45: Not accepting of Malfoy in the sense that she agrees, understands, or sympathizes with him...but accepting as in 'he's a jerk and will probably always be one so there's no point in expecting any better from him' IMO she's just a really good judge of character. And at the end of OotP she starts to accept Luna for what she is as well...a 'loon'(LOL!) with off the wall ideas and the like. She has tolerance! She didn't take well to Luna because she didn't like the fact that Luna's info. wasn't based off actual evidence ( like something she would find in the library most likely), and she didn't like Fleur because of her haughtiness and from what she heard her say in the Great Hall the first night they arrived. In both instances she got over it. And she's not trying to change people. Change happens from the inside/out. With Ron and Harry it's just as simple as her just wanting them to make good grades...that's all. A majority of the time when she's scolding Ron or Harry and giving them advice (being bossy) it's almost always for *academic purposes*. That's not "change", it's "concern". As far as non-humans go, I'm guessing you're referring to the house elves who work in the castle. She doesn't have a hard time at all accepting them. She's trying to give them the tools to think for themselves. In the end I think her efforts with the house elves will work out in their favor. House elves are very powerful creatures and it just might be Harry (with having a friend in Dobby) and Hermione (with her concern, assertiveness, and kindness) that finally sways them to fight. They won't be any better off if Voldemort wins either. They'll soon realize that too. Back to Ron and Harry...as long as she's not telling them to "sit up straight" "change your clothes" and "do what I say when I say it", then it just looks like a friend that's concerned with their academic progress. Hermione's big fears have always been getting bad grades and getting in trouble (as far as school is concerned), so whatever she has said in books 1-5 that may have been interpreted as 'a need for change in others' has really only been a deep rooted concern for her, Ron and Harry's safety and scholarly achievements. Besides, I think she's finally starting to realize there's more important things than academics...like STAYING ALIVE and helping to keep Harry alive as well. From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sun Jul 11 10:44:26 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 06:44:26 -0400 Subject: DE in the DoM Message-ID: <004401c46734$0a103090$89c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 105613 Potioncat said: "You ask if Crabbe should still be at Hogwarts if his father was injured. Well, there are very few days left if IRRC. So I can think of reasons he might still be there. Do we know if Nott is still at school? OR for that matter, are DEs allowed visitors? Back in the old days, IRRC, Crouch had to pull strings for Barty's mother to come visit him." Cathy: I guess I didn't make myself clear in my original post (isn't the first time and won't be the last). I thought, if it was Crabbe that went through the bell jar, he would probably be in St Mungo's, under heavy guard, but I can't see why they wouldn't let his son in to see him. It was only a few days before end of term that the Weasley's were whisked away to GP when Arthur was attacked. I noticed a flaw in my theory, anyway, when going over my notes about it (big note taker, here). I left out the other possible 'missing' DE who could have gone through the bell jar...Rabastan Lestrange. He is only ever mentioned in the inital calling out of names by Malfoy. He is with Crabbe, being sent 'to the right', and we never hear about him again. I still think it was Avery who went through the bell jar, but my whole point was, I'm now firmly convinced the remaining nine DE's are in Azkaban, Bella having split with LV and Nott and whoever going to St. Mungo's. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sun Jul 11 11:45:10 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 11:45:10 -0000 Subject: Amazing what you can find... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105614 Dug into the back posts recently? You really should, it's amazing what you can find. Like a report of a Dec. 2000 JKR reading and Q & A session that doesn't seem to be included in Quick-Quotes. Pam Scruton, post 6494 - "Jo in Glasgow" reported: 1. GoF chap. 9 "The Dark Mark" had been re-written *13* times! (Whoo! Something significant being carefully hidden maybe? Dig into the canon, folks!) 2. Durmstrang is in the "very north of Norway/Sweden" 3. Beauxbatons is near Cannes 4. May well kill off more characters, though not the Dursleys - she enjoys torturing them! (Might rule out some HBP and late-developing wizard/witch theories involving Dudders and Petunia.) 5. Lockhart based on real individual - who is probably too dim to realise it. 6. Only sold the film rights so that "she could see a Quidditch match"! I've never heard mention of this event before and with the recent announcement of the up-coming Edinburgh book-fest do, we need to get somebody in there to bring back the news - so far as I can find out it isn't being broadcast. Kneasy From vmonte at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 12:28:45 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:28:45 -0000 Subject: ...HRH friendship - SS/PS the obstacle course was meant for HRH In-Reply-To: <20040711091308.24801.qmail@webmail31.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105615 Cathy wrote: I want to know why there were three broomsticks in the winged key room. Three. Seems a bit >> odd, doesn't it? As though DD KNEW HRH would be the ones to go after it. Nearly anyone >> >> else would would be trying to get the stone would be acting alone, why would they need three >> broomsticks. vmonte responds: You are right Cathy, I think there is something fishy about the entire obstacle course in SS/PS. I've said this before but I believe that the whole course specifically geared for HRH. My comments below are from a previous post. Page 302, SS: "D'you think he meant you to do it?" said Ron. "Sending you your father's cloak and everything?" "Well," Hermione exploded, "if he did?I mean to say?that's terrible? you could have been killed." "No, it isn't," said Harry thoughtfully. "He's a funny man, Dumbledore. I think he sort of wanted to give me a chance. I think he knows more or less everything that goes on here, you know. I reckon he had a pretty good idea we were going to try, and instead of stopping us, he just taught us enough to help. I don't think it was an accident he let me find out how the mirror worked. It's almost like he thought I had the right to face Voldemort if I could " vmonte: Interesting isn't it. This is exactly what Dumbledore has been doing throughout all the books. I think that the obstacles that were set up were specifically geared for Harry, Hermione, and Ron to go through. Minerva's chess game -- Why did MM put this as an obstacle? Her specialty is transfigurations!? This was definitely geared for Ron who excels in chess. Madam Hooch's flying-key room -- This is obviously geared for Harry who is great at flying. DD's Mirror-of-Erised -- Harry even states that DD got him acquainted with it so that he would know how it works. Professor Sprout's Devil's Snare ? Hermione figures this out. Page 285, Snape's obstacle "Hermione let out a great sigh and Harry, amazed, saw that she was smiling, the very last thing he felt like doing." "Brilliant," said Hermione. "This isn't magic?it's logic?a puzzle. A lot of the greatest wizards haven't got an ounce of logic, they'd be stuck in here forever." vmonte: It is unusual that Snape's obstacle has to do with logic, not potions. I think that out of all of these obstacles, Snape's really seems geared for Voldemort. Perhaps he believed that Voldemort would know every kind of potion there was--so he comes up with a puzzle. And since Hermione is a super brain, she figures it out anyway. (Or, maybe he did mean it for Hermione to solve.) So finally, what I'm trying to say is that Dumbledore intended for the children to go through the obstacle course. He also intended for Harry to confront Voldemort at its end. He prepares Harry for this confrontation. DD created this obstacle course for the children. Is he training them for an as yet mentioned future role? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/102438 vivian From jferer at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 13:34:36 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:34:36 -0000 Subject: Hermione's growth (long) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105616 I've said before that the transformation of Hermione's character is arguably the greatest of any of the main characters. It certainly fascinated me more than anyone else's. Let me explain. Why is Hermione's growth more interesting than Harry's? Harry is on a path prophesied for him before he was even born; his progress is very much what you'd expect for him. His moral compass as a compassionate person who cares for others is still intact, if a little battered, and it will help him avoid sliding into self-pity, which he was in danger of in OoP. He's passed a very dangerous time for him, now that he's accepted again by his fellows. HERMIONE IN THE BEGINNING Hermione, OTOH, came to Hogwarts as a prig-in-the-making natural Ravenclaw, insecure, blindly into the rules for their own sake, insensitive to others. Somehow she was sorted into Gryffindor, further proof that the Sorting Hat knows what it's doing ? or was there more of a purpose? Hermione didn't know when to stop prying into other people's business. She was bossy. Her GPA was the only thing she cared about. It was the closest thing to a purpose she had. We don't know, but I'll bet her time in the girl's dorm was unhappy, tense, lonely. THE GROWING HERMIONE Hermione Granger then became friends with Harry Potter and Ronald Weasley, and her life would never be the same. The danger she faces with them gives her a purpose ? accomplishing a mission, doing it well, almost like a lark ? before she discovers her caring for her friends and her bond with them. At the climax of PS/SS, she puts words to it: "Hermione's lip trembled, and she suddenly dashed at Harry and threw her arms around him. "Hermione!" "Harry -- you're a great wizard, you know." "I'm not as good as you," said Harry, very embarrassed, as she let go of him. "Me!" said Hermione. "Books! And cleverness! There are more important things -- friendship and bravery and -- oh Harry -- be careful!" She's also discovered there are other things than rules and academic honors. She cares about both and always will, but now she's got some perspective on them. These things will be her servants, no longer her masters. She's discovered something else ? love. This is not an H/H screed (although I am H/H), at this stage it means deep caring for the two people she's shared danger and mission with. All three have the kind of bond that only the best of war-buddies share, and that children practically never have to share, thank God. This is a maturing experience in the best way, and Hermione is affected most. HERMIONE LEARNS COMPASSION Hermione wasn't the best one to take troubled feelings to, was she? Anything that didn't fit her "mind over matter" mindset was dismissed. As late as PoA her "rational" side got the better of her when Lavender's rabbit was killed, although she cared enough about Lavender to at least look anxious. I would really like to know the soul-searching Hermione went through after that. Hermione's changed since then. She's smart enough to learn that people who deny emotions aren't being rational, and she sees suffering and injustice and is moved by it. By GoF, she is moved enough by Winky's suffering and the injustice of house-elves that she does something about it. Later, we see Hermione's compassion towards Neville. Hermione is wiser now, and more sensitive. If a situation like the death of Lavender's rabbit happened now, she'd handle it differently. Hermione has grown. HERMIONE HAS PURPOSE Hermione's sense of purpose started early. In PS/SS, she learns from Harry that preventing Voldemort's return is more important that staying in school or even staying alive: "SO WHAT" Harry shouted. "Don't you understand? If Snape gets hold of the Stone, Voldemort's coming back! Haven't you heard what it was like when he was trying to take over? There won't be any Hogwarts to get expelled from! He'll flatten it, or turn it into a school for the Dark Arts! ..." "You're right Harry," said Hermione in a small voice." Later, we see Hermione's sense of resolve become deeper, to the point where she is willing to be ruthless in the service of her cause. Rita Skeeter found out the hard way that hurting Little Miss Perfect's best friend was a bad idea. LMP's not through with Rita, either, when it comes time to get Harry's story out (a brilliant idea, BTW, which nobody else would have thought of). Too bad Marietta Edgecombe never met Rita. Rita might have warned her. HERMIONE HAS SMARTS We knew that, but I don't mean book smarts. Smarts. She knows exactly what Harry needed and acted on it, first, by getting his story out there, to forming the DA and making Harry its leader, which really saved him in many ways. He needed it badly, and it was Hermione who saw it and acted on it. Again, I don't want to make that an H/H thing (here, at least); nobody disagrees Hermione cares a lot about Harry, romance aside. She also is Harry's coach, supplying the things he lacks (deliberation and academic discipline, for instance), and preparing him for his trials in many ways. Without designing it, she's made herself indispensable to Harry. After the first book or two, you could say that just about every time Harry didn't listen to her, he was wrong not to. (you could argue about some points in PoA). AMONG THE GREAT YOU WILL BE Hermione might have been inclined to Ravenclaw when she came to Hogwarts, but there has never been a truer Gryffindor now. She has courage, purpose, and more and more wisdom all the time. Her life is transformed from what it might have been. Harry's life was foretold for him; Destiny found Hermione. Jim Ferer From meriaugust at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 14:17:59 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:17:59 -0000 Subject: Was Harry Born a Muggle? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105617 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gelite67" wrote: > My personal theory as to why LV couldn't kill Harry: Snape was there > and interfered b/c he was in love with Lily. He arrived too late to > save her, but he saved Harry so that part of her would live on. > > My alternative theory is that LV got it wrong and Neville was the > person referred to in the prophesy. Harry was born a Muggle but > became a wizard when LV transferred some of his powers to him (marked > him as his equal). Meri now: I don't quite understand what you mean "born a Muggle". Lily and James were definately both a witch and wizard, and unless you're implying that Harry was naturally a squib, then it's not possible for him to be a Muggle-born. We know that some of LV's powers were transfered to Harry, but we also know of the 'magic quill' which detects the birth of babies with magical potential, and so Harry was literally down for Hogwarts since he was born. LV could only kill the infant who was mentioned > in the prophesy; since Harry wasn't the infant, LV couldn't kill > him. There are references to LV killing Muggles, but no other > references to him killing infants, I don't think. Meri: I'll bet LV has the blood of many kids on his hands. Several familes were murdered on his orders, and like the Potters, I am sure no one was supposed to be left alive. And I think that if Harry had not been the one to whom the prophecy pertianed, then he would have died in that attack, LV would have gone on to Neville and then we'd be reading a very different series. In my interpretation of the Prophecy, LV was acting on the two kids *before* they could become powerful enough to kill him. Obviously as babies they didn't have powers to defeat him. But if he killed them before they grew up (kinda like the Pharoah and Moses) then they'd be no threat ever. Meri From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 14:51:14 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:51:14 -0000 Subject: Royalty in WW after all? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105618 Ok, I have way to much time on my hands here I was just looking through something when I came across this. Not sure what it could mean, if anything: Andromeda was the princess of Ethiopia, daughter of Cepheus and Cassiopeia. That would give us our royalty aspect of HBP. I was looking up Andromeda on the Lexicon but there is virtualy nothing on her. All we know is that she married Ted Tonks (Whom we know NOTHING about)...do we know anything else? Does Tonks have a brother???? From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sun Jul 11 14:53:01 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:53:01 -0000 Subject: Boggart/ Patronus Musings - Seeing Patronus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105619 Adan: > Well, let's see... during the DA meeting (OotP, CH 27 The Centaur and the Snake) we get the following: Cho (silvery Swan), Lavendar > (silver vapor), Neville (feeble wisps of silver smoke), Seamus (not sure, but 'definitely something hairy'), Hermione (shining silver otter)... > So there may have been others, but we don't get to know. > > Adan, wondering what Ginny's is... Jen:.....a cat! Why did we get to see Cho's and not Ron's? And Luna, she would have some mythical creature. A unicorn maybe, since she's portrayed as innocent and gentle. From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Jul 11 15:02:16 2004 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 11 Jul 2004 15:02:16 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1089558136.24.63237.m11@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105620 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, July 11, 2004 Time: 11:00AM CDT (GMT-05:00) Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. Chat times do not change for Daylight Saving/Summer Time. Chat generally goes on for about 5 hours, but can last as long as people want it to last. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type: /join HP:1 Hope to see you there! From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sun Jul 11 14:54:35 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 10:54:35 -0400 Subject: Who's the third dead death eater??? Message-ID: <001a01c46756$fc13c920$29c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 105621 Neri asked: "But who's the third? Am I missing someone obvious? He can't be meaning Regulus Black, right? An unaccounted DE is a very suspicious thing, even (or especially) if he's supposed to be dead." Cathy: I can't imagine it could be Regulus Black, only because Sirius said Voldemort had Regulus killed. Hardly constitutes "dead in my service" does it? I've been pondering over these six Death Eaters myself. Apart from this one dead guy, I thought I had them figured out until somebody mentioned Fudge. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Sun Jul 11 12:13:35 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 11 Jul 2004 12:13:35 -0000 Subject: Harry not The One? (was Re: Harry was born the Muggle?) Message-ID: <20040711121335.20519.qmail@webmail31.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105622 >> Alla: >> Werevolf Lupin deserved a second chance in Dumbledore's eyes. Amey: It was never a second chance for werewolf Lupin? If it was second chance, when did he have his first and what did he do with it (Ughh... seems like talking about Snape). "He let me into Hogwarts as a boy, and he gave me a job when I have been shunned all my adult life, unable to find paid work because of what I am." - Prof. Lupin Now, he says so himself, so it is not at all final if we consider the ESE!Lupin theory (I don't subscribe to that theory). There is no way to dispute one way or other, but till he is proved guilty of being ESE, I am thinking he is only werewolf, who Dumbledore gave work. (""Innocent until proven guilty, Severus," he said firmly.") >> Angie >> Subject: Was Harry Born a Muggle? >> My personal theory as to why LV couldn't kill Harry: Snape was there >> and interfered b/c he was in love with Lily. He arrived too late to >> save her, but he saved Harry so that part of her would live on. >> My alternative theory is that LV got it wrong and Neville was the >> person referred to in the prophesy. Harry was born a Muggle but >> became a wizard when LV transferred some of his powers to him (marked >> him as his equal). LV could only kill the infant who was mentioned >> in the prophesy; since Harry wasn't the infant, LV couldn't kill >> him. There are references to LV killing Muggles, but no other >> references to him killing infants, I don't think. >> Just a theory . . . ready to be shot down. Amey: Given such a golden chance of disputing something, I can hardly wait. Ok, here goes. If Snape was there and tried to save Lily, then LV would surely know that he is not DE as he says, and the moment he goes back to LV after his return, he would have been dead. Even being Occlumens wouldn't help him there. Ok, if he was invisible or something, then this might be ok, but still, his interference would be in the form of some spell either to shield Harry or to stop (kill) LV (which is almost impossible if you believe DEs talking in those days). And if he shielded Harry, that would mean he is the source of the protecting charm we hear about. Then what is the reason of hating him?? Does Harry remind him more of James than Lily? (""I expect you'll tire of hearing it, but you do look extraordinarily like James. Except for the eyes... you have your mother's eyes."). Also, if Harry couldn't be a muggle. At most he can be a squib. And the prophesy says nothing like LV can kill only the person mentioned in the prophesy. Otherwise, it would be pretty bad for him (I mean, a Dark Lord who can kill only one person... who will fear him? ;)) So, he made the decision based on what he heard, and marked Harry there as *`The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord *. I am not sure what part Neville plays. I believe he is half part of *The One*, in the sense that he is going to be instrumental in the war now. Reminds me, isn't it Neville who we find with the trio everywhere when they are more than 3? So, he has a part to play, but I am sure not as central as Harry. A wild theory here, what if in 7, Harry takes over Neville as LV does to Harry in MoM and they together vanquish LV? :) <... and the pin clicks on empty round> Amey, who thinks he has fired many rounds in the air, without seeing if he has found the mark or not [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dzeytoun at cox.net Sun Jul 11 14:51:17 2004 From: dzeytoun at cox.net (dzeytoun) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:51:17 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes (or Snape-aholics and Siriophiles) In-Reply-To: <20040711025947.27298.qmail@web25110.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105623 > > Lee: > > and I am still trying to catch up with the details. > > Well the main reason besides not spoiling Harry, is that he is safe at the Dursleys and as long as he returns there he is protected by his mother's charm. Which is why LV can not get to him there. The fact that is not going to be spoiled as well is an advantage I think. > > > > As for him saying Sirius does not hurt Snape's feelings but that Snape was still hurting from James, well I think that is most likely because James was his worst enermy and they enermity began long ago not to manchine that he saved his life which makes it worse. Where as with Sirius the problem is he knows that he does not like him and they would not mind dueling to the death and there is nothing that he has to be greatfull for from Sirius hance easy for him to disregard any thing he says. > > and as we have manchined those whonds where when he was young and those things mattered then but not now > I'm sorry, but the whole Snape/Dumbledore as bad cop/good cop scenario just strikes me as plain silly. Although I can see that he tolerates Snape's behavior because he needs him and because students might as well learn how to deal with nasty people, the idea that he and Snape deliberately manipulate the situation to train Harry is ludicrous. In addition to the whole "I thought he could overcome his feelings" quote, this runs flat up against Dumbledore's statement: "I defy anyone who has watched you as I have, and I have watched you more closely than you can have imagined, not to want to save you more pain than you had already suffered." Sorry, this does not fit with a person who deliberately teams up with a nasty potions master to inflict pain on Harry for the purpose of teaching him that life isn't fair - as if Harry needed to be taught that, in any case. I think lots of people are attaching FAR too much importance to Dumbledore's statement to McGonagall in PS/SS about fame turning Harry's head. The man was coming up with an excuse to over ride her objections about leaving Harry in the Muggle world because, for whatever reason (why is an interesting question) he did not want to tell her about the blood protections. Another way of looking at it is he was either not forthcoming with McGonagall in PS/SS or not being very honest with Harry in OOTP. Or perhaps his outlook changed from PS to OOTP. Either way, if we have to choose between a brief remark 15 years ago or a highly emotional confession this year, I would go with the latter. And if we do that, once again it isn't very compatible with some bizarre good cop/bad cop scenario. Dzeytoun From dontask2much at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 14:33:16 2004 From: dontask2much at yahoo.com (charme) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:33:16 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105624 > Katie: > > You're quite right. I'm sure James is a much better person than I > give him credit for, and it *is* unfair to judge him based on one > appearance. I hope JKR adds some more about him (and Lily, for that > matter) in the next book. I still think he and Sirius are being > terrible bullies in that scene, though. > charme: I believe this is the reason Snape worked himself to be the best Occulmens he could be. Snape has an anger/emotion management problem; when Harry sees his memories in the OoP he basically flips out, wouldn't you say? He's very reactionary with James and Sirius, and this may have taught him that to react with emotion is to do so with peril. He views that type of behavior (wearing your heart/emotions on your sleeve) as weak and easy prey for the Dark Lord. From wright1000 at sbcglobal.net Sun Jul 11 12:47:18 2004 From: wright1000 at sbcglobal.net (wupu75) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:47:18 -0000 Subject: Will Dumbledore die? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105625 If DD were to die would he have a portrait waiting for him at Hogwarts? We know nothing about how the former Hogwarts heads enter into the portrait realm. They seem to be "alive" for all intents and purposes; just not able to move about in the real wizarding world. And if someone enters into the portrait realm just how far afield can they range? DD says in OoTP that he doesn't care what they do as long as they don't take him off the chocolate frog cards. If he could move amongst the choco frog cards this statement that appears as a joke on the surface could be one of DD's most profound statements. DD could become more powerful and formidable in death than in life. From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sun Jul 11 13:40:17 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 09:40:17 -0400 Subject: Malfoy, Sirius and Ron&Harry friendship Message-ID: <000e01c4674c$9adac320$29c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 105626 Amey: "They're not birds!" Harry said suddenly. "They're keys! Winged keys- look carefully. So that must mean..." he looked around the chamber while the other two squinted up at the flock of keys. "... yes-look! Broomsticks! We've got to catch the key to the door!" (SS/PS) So we don't know exactly how many brromsticks are there. " Cathy: There were at least three as all three, HRH, flew them to catch the key. If DD had only expected one person to be down there trying to steal the stone, why would there have been more than one broom? In fact, why was there a broom at all? If the object was to keep a person *from getting to the stone* why give them the means to catch the key in the first place? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From estrilda_wolfegg at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 13:59:49 2004 From: estrilda_wolfegg at yahoo.com (estrilda_wolfegg) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:59:49 -0000 Subject: ...HRH friendship - SS/PS the obstacle course was meant for HRH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105627 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: I've said this before but I believe > that the whole course specifically geared for HRH. Perhaps JKR wrote the obstacles in the first book specifically to showcase the varied talents of the trio HRH and emphasize the specialties of her teacher characters. Perhaps, she didn't consider what the availability of the needed materials signified about Dumbledore's expectations of Harry or anyone else. In interviews and on her website, JKR often seems quite surprised by how much she is analyzed and when she was writing the first book, she was not yet faced with our scrutiny of the underlying meanings in HP events. Estrilda (a fan of the "simplest solution" theory) From enderbean01 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 13:41:21 2004 From: enderbean01 at yahoo.com (Miyuki Takagi) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 06:41:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040711134121.92845.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105628 Alla: Of what use Snape will be to Voldemort if he cannot be a spy? enderbean: I seemed to get the impression from the books that Snape was an excellent potions master. I don't think it would be too far-fetched for Voldemort to want Snape for that. If you were an evil wizard planning to take over the world potions could come in pretty handy. But that's just my opinion. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dontask2much at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 13:47:29 2004 From: dontask2much at yahoo.com (charme) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:47:29 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: <20040711091024.22738.qmail@webmail9.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105629 > Amey: > The point here is that he wasn't sorted into Slytherin. (I hear people shouting here... listen to me fully people). What I mean is if he was so interested in Dark Arts, he must have Wizard background, and must have heard about the Hogwarts houses and their qualities? If he had choice (like Harry), why didn't he choose any other house? (Ravenclaw would have suited him surely) So it is as much question of choice. So he decided to go that way, and chose his friends, peers himself. That is the difference between him and Sirius (considering they have similar Dark background). > > And as for punishment, I doubt anything less than Dementor's kiss would be enough in Snape's opinion. charme: First let me say I am SO happy I found this group! :) This is my first post here, so bear with me while I get my bearings, eh? Remember in JK Rowling's World Book Day Chat on 3/4/2004, she answered a question which supports your argument, Amey. She specifically did NOT say that the sorting hat was "accurate," but instead merely defaulted to the hat being "certainly sincere." There's also reference to James stating to Lily in the Pensieve memory that it was the mere fact Snape existed which caused the friction betwix the 2 of them; what if the initial first year sorting for Snape was remarkably similiar to Harry's? Potter, Black, Lupin all would have already been sorted, because canon supports an alphabetical sequence of events in that regard. Could you imagine how freaked the Gryffindors would be hearing Snape, of all people, having a choice?! This also could be part of the reason he hates Harry so - Harry made a decision that Snape himself could not. From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Jul 11 15:26:47 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 15:26:47 -0000 Subject: Snape questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105630 Del wrote: > So it could be that Snape is not such a good Legilimens. I know he > always seems to know when Harry has been lying, but that could just be > good psychology or something like that. And I guess it must be even > harder to use Legilimency when excited, stressed or angry. > > Just my guess, > Potioncat: I think you're right. We're told he's an Occlumens, not a Ligilimens. There are several times in the books where I think he is trying to get eye contact with Harry in order to work Legilimens, but I'm not sure if it works. I haven't double checked the canon version, but it appears that is what he is up to in the scene with Filch's petrified cat. (in the movie at least) And again in GoF when he sits across from Harry and hisses insults at him. At that time, Harry tries to avoid eye contact. It would also make sense, since he is merely a lad of 35 or so, that he might just be starting to work on Legilimens. DD, afterall is 150. Potioncat From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sun Jul 11 13:45:20 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 09:45:20 -0400 Subject: DE in the DoM Message-ID: <001701c4674d$4f07caf0$29c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 105631 "I noticed a flaw in my theory, anyway, when going over my notes about it (big note taker, here). I left out the other possible 'missing' DE who could have gone through the bell jar...Rabastan Lestrange" Replying to my own stupidity here. Initially I had ruled out Rabastan Lestrange because Harry, Hermione and Neville would all have been able to recognize him from the photos in the Daily Prophet and the posters in the shops in Hogsmeade. None of the three seemed to recognize him when his head was going up and down in the bell jar. So I concluded that it had to be Crabbe (whom I ruled out for other reasons) or Avery..who is who I think it was...not that it makes one bit of difference at the moment. Cathy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Sun Jul 11 15:36:57 2004 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 15:36:57 -0000 Subject: Ex-Snape = DE believer (was Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105632 --- "dzeytoun" wrote: > > and I am still trying to catch up with the details. > > > > Well the main reason besides not spoiling Harry, is that he is safe > at the Dursleys and as long as he returns there he is protected by > his mother's charm. Which is why LV can not get to him there. The > fact that is not going to be spoiled as well is an advantage I think. > > > > As for him saying Sirius does not hurt Snape's feelings but that > Snape was still hurting from James ... > because James was his worst enermy and they enermity began long ago > > > I'm sorry, but the whole Snape/Dumbledore as bad cop/good cop > scenario just strikes me as plain silly. Although I can see that > he tolerates Snape's behavior because he needs him ... > > The ... excuse to over ride her objections about leaving > Harry in the Muggle world because, for whatever reason (why > is an interesting question) he did not want to > tell her about the blood protections. > > ... And if we do that, once again it isn't very > compatible with some bizarre good cop/bad cop scenario. > > Dzeytoun I used to believe Snape was the ultimate spy in OotP for the Death Eaters, while Peter P was a more recent recruit. But Peter never refered to Snape in the Shreiking Shack while looking for excuses for Black and Lupin. So keeping Snape at Hogwarts is not just "keep your friends close and your enemies closer". Just like Dumbledore keeps Trelawney at Hogwarts despite her teaching abilities, Snape has one undeniable advantage for Dumbledore. The Dark Mark on his arm was the most concrete proof at the end of GOF that Voldemort was back. Snape is the Voldemort barometer that Dumbledore uses. From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Sun Jul 11 16:43:07 2004 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 16:43:07 -0000 Subject: Hermione's growth (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105633 Jim Ferer wrote: > HERMIONE LEARNS COMPASSION > > Hermione wasn't the best one to take troubled feelings to, was she? > Anything that didn't fit her "mind over matter" mindset was dismissed. > As late as PoA her "rational" side got the better of her when > Lavender's rabbit was killed, although she cared enough about Lavender > to at least look anxious. I would really like to know the > soul-searching Hermione went through after that. Mostly I thought this a great post, but I have a different take on the incident of Lavender's rabbit. I'm almost totally with Hermione on this one. Trelawney is preying on Lavender (and Parvati), and Hermione sees it, and is attempting to rescue Lavender. Her compassion in the situation is signalled by the hesitancy with which she broaches the subject. As I see it, she is not insensitive but rather feels that this issue is higher priority and takes the risk of alienating Lavender and her friends. Her weakness in the situation is her insecurity, that she feels she has to intervene there and then. I think her compassion is fine. David From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 16:44:10 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 16:44:10 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105634 kyntor wrote: > 1. Snape did use a racial slur against Lily. You can speculate that > it was the first time he ever used one, but it is speculation. Del replies : Let's imagine that somehow Draco lost his bodyguards, and someone started humiliating him. Do you really think Hermione would come to Draco's help ? I don'think so, because Draco has over and over again insulted Hermione. But Lily did come, and she even seemed surprised when Snape insulted her. Moreover, it might be speculation to say that Snape never exhibited racism before, but it is just as much speculation to say he did. We have only the Marauders' word that he did : not exactly an objective opinion, is it ? kyntor wrote : > 2. Lily did change her opinion of James (they were married) so he > must have grown up and stopped being a brat. > > 3. It was mentioned in PoA that Snape followed the maurauders around > trying to get them expelled. I can't remember who said it. It was > either Lupin or Sirius. It is a lot more believable if it was Lupin. Del replies : So what ? It doesn't change anything to the fact that *in this scene* James does NOT act with nobility. kyntor wrote : > 4. During the pensieve scene James was using spells that would > humiliate Snape. When Snape got the opportunity to retaliate, he did > not respond in kind. Instead of trying to humilate James, he shoots > a spell at James that physically injured him (a cutting spell). The > spell cut James cheek. After that James got really nasty; however, > he still did not try to physically injure Snape. Del replies : Mild physical injuries like the one James sustained hurt just the body and damage only your physical ablitities for a while. Humiliation hurts the mind and soul and can damage someone's self-worth forever. Once a physical injury has healed, you don't remember it (I don't remember the pain that followed my C-section), but hurtful words and humiliations can haunt you forever (I still remember some humiliating things that were done or said to me as a teenager, 15 years ago, and it still makes me feel stupid and worthless). To believe that physical injury is worse than emotional injury is a common mistake. They are both damaging, but most people sustain the first one much better and with far less long-lasting damage than the second one. After all, which memories of Dudley's bullying does Harry remember during his Occlumency lessons ? The humiliations, not the beating up. Del From jferer at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 16:55:37 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 16:55:37 -0000 Subject: Hermione's growth (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105635 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley" wrote: > Jim Ferer wrote: > > > HERMIONE LEARNS COMPASSION > > > > Hermione wasn't the best one to take troubled feelings to, was she? > > Anything that didn't fit her "mind over matter" mindset was > dismissed. > > As late as PoA her "rational" side got the better of her when > > Lavender's rabbit was killed, although she cared enough about > Lavender > > to at least look anxious. I would really like to know the > > soul-searching Hermione went through after that. > > > Mostly I thought this a great post, but I have a different take on > the incident of Lavender's rabbit. I'm almost totally with Hermione > on this one. Trelawney is preying on Lavender (and Parvati), and > Hermione sees it, and is attempting to rescue Lavender. > > Her compassion in the situation is signalled by the hesitancy with > which she broaches the subject. As I see it, she is not insensitive > but rather feels that this issue is higher priority and takes the > risk of alienating Lavender and her friends. > > Her weakness in the situation is her insecurity, that she feels she > has to intervene there and then. I think her compassion is fine. I see your point, but the older Hermione would have challenged Trelawney's nonsense another time. I'm sure Hermione knows now that Lavender just couldn't absorb Hermione's point while grieving for her pet. We agree, though, Hermione's compassion is fine, and will become more mature and wiser as time goes on. Jim From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 16:58:00 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 16:58:00 -0000 Subject: Thestrals Seen by 4th Years (was Re: Boggart/ Patronus Musings - Quote Lupin) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105636 > halli: > Slightly off topic, but I just wanted to mention something thats > been bugging me for awhile, and it seems to fit here. Hagrid said he > waited for their 5th year to show them the thestrals, but Ginny and > Luna knew all about them, which gives me the idea that teachers like > Hagrid and Lupin (and all the defense teachers for that matter)- > newer teachers- don't have a ordered curiculm and just teach all the > kids the same thing, regardless of their year, just to simplfy > things a bit. Ginger takes a stab at it: For what it's worth, I have wondered the same thing regarding the lesson plans, especially the DADA teachers. As for Luna and the Thestrals, I think the answer may lie in the fact that Luna has been able to see them since she got there. Either she knew before she got there (perhaps Dad prepared her?) or she asked once she got there and found that she was the only one, or one of only a few, of her peers who could see them. For all we know, she may have told Ginny about them. Just a guess, Ginger From marcuscason at charter.net Sun Jul 11 17:25:05 2004 From: marcuscason at charter.net (kyntor70) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 17:25:05 -0000 Subject: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105637 a wrote: > In this interview: > http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1999/1099- connectiontransc.html > JK clearly states: "When I started writing it, I had never thought > of writing for children." Kyntor replies: I took that quote to mean that she didn't really gear the books towards children until she actually started writing them. The books seem to be geared towards children. JKR mentions somewhere else in the interview that Hermione was a caricature of her. That is the type of think done in children's books and the type of thing that I was talking about. Kyntor From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 18:03:39 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 18:03:39 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105638 Valky wrote : > James and Sirius approached Snape with a single question, a baiting > one apparently, but indeed just a question. > Snape reached for his wand to engage in battle face to face. > James outdrew him. > The attack *started* from both ends at the same time. > The ensuing events have little to do with that. Del replies : Let's reconsider the events : Snape was sitting quietly on his own reviewing his DADA OWL. He stands up to go away. His 2 arch-enemies come up *together*. They insult him *loudly*. Now let's figure another imaginary scene. Harry is sitting quietly on his own, revising for his OWLs. He stands up to go away. Draco, Crabbe and Goyle come up together, and insult him loudly. What is Harry going to do ? Draw his wand. That doesn't mean that he's going to *use* it. That just means that he gets into a defensive position, because people with whom he's fought previously have just talked to him in a provocative way. And if Draco disarms Harry before he had time to properly get his wand ready, and then jinxes him, I think it's pretty clear that *Draco alone* started the fight, not Harry. Moreover, there is no mention that James *outdrew* Snape. There's no mention that James had his wand out before Snape went for his own, either. So no conclusion can be drawn based on the stated facts only. However, Snape had his bag on his back and was taken unaware, while James was pre-prepared to a fight, in fact he was hoping for it. So even if James did outdraw Snape, it still wasn't fair. Valky wrote : > A question, despite its grating nature, does not constitute a > magical attack in a duel. Its just slanging. Thats it. If that's the > *first* attack that your referring to then it has nothing to do with > duelling at all. Snape is of course within his right to reply with > his exceptional wit ............. ;D Del replies : Even in RL, fights rarely start straight by using the fists. Most of the time, they start with words. Fists give out physical blows, but words give emotional blows, and it's not rare to see people reacting to an insult in the same way they would react to a physical blow. Thus, James's insult *was* the first blow and had indeed started the duel. Snape could have chosen to keep the duel on the level of words, but that doesn't change the fact that *James* gave the first blow. Valky wrote : > It is always James against Snape. Del replies : So what's wrong with Draco ? Why do we despise him for having his body-guards around whenever he attacks Harry ? After all, it's always Draco against Harry, isn't it ? So I guess we should actually consider Draco *courageous* for daring to take on such a famous and obviously talented wizard as Harry. OK, I'll stop the irony there. I'm sure you got my point. If it was indeed James only against snape, then Sirius should not have intervened. And James should have told him to stop when he did. Harry would never let Ron hex a lone Draco after he, Harry, had disarmed him. In fact, Ron would never even think of it, precisely because it's not a noble thing to do. Valky wrote : > Sirius laughs at James victory in disarming Snape so majestically. > Snape dives for his wand again but Sirius throws the Impedimenta > Jinx. He doesn't want Snape to get his wand back, he's not here to > fight he's here to pick Snape apart psychologically with *words*. Del replies : Emotional beating up. I hate that even more than physical beating up. Valky wrote ; > James doesn't mind helping because Snapes a bit dangerous, so if he > takes him on it's an adventure. Del replies : Excuse me ??? Snape might have been dangerous, but remind me who McGonagall described as exceptionally intelligent and talented ? James and Sirius were every bit as dangerous as Snape, each one of them. It doesn't take Dark Magic to be dangerous. DD is just as dangerous as LV, even though he never uses Dak Magic. Valky wrote : > You see, this is the difficult part. They've gone too far here, and > there's no answering it. So far they had managed to disarm Snape one > on one. James had allowed Sirius to vent on him and then..... > .....well Snape never backed down. Not that they ever should have > expected him too, but they did. Snape instead swears at them, curses > and hexes and such that James gets huffy, as in "Hey I just bested > you in battle dude, show a little respect for your superiors.". Del replies : Yeah, James just bested Snape in an unfair battle, never letting him any chance. Snape never had any opportunity to actually point his wand at James, he wasn't given enough time for that. James was no superior to Snape, and both James and Snape knew that. Valky wrote : > Where is the dry wit and drips of sarcasm from super intellectual > surprisingly courageous Snape in the pensieve? > > Snape learned James' way sometime between the pensieve scene and the > current day, he wasn't using it then. > > Snape adopted Sirius' ways sometime between then and now, also. Del replied : It wasn't an improvement. Young Snape would have beaten up Harry. Older Snape humiliates him. I'm sure Harry would prefer young Snape any day. Valky wrote : > The boy in the pensieve scene was a dangerous fellow, of this I am > absolutely certain. His weapon of choice is the one he issues from > his wand and it is as fierce and devilish as the whip of his tongue > as an adult, his future weapon of choice. Del replies : A dangerous fellow ? But they are *all* dangerous fellows ! They all have the tool to do a lot of damage : magic, whether Dark or not. The only difference between all the students is their intent in using magic to hurt other people. And *in this scene*, the ones we see using magic to hurt someone else *first* are James and Sirius. And honestly, I don't see anything that dangerous in a curse that opens a gash in a cheek. A fist can open your lip or break any part of your body : just as dangerous. Valky wrote : > Snape only wants James head on a platter. He even ignores Sirius, > despite Sirius best efforts to get his attention. Del replies : Snape knows that James is the leader. If he can win over James, chances are Sirius will leave him alone. Snape also knows that James is the one with the cool head and the sadistic trait, hence the most dangerous one. Sirius is much more hot-blooded and straight-forward : a much easier opponent. Valky wrote : > James was never in any danger because he was faster than Snape. Del replies : Again : we have no proof of that. You say he was faster, I say he already had his wand out, and none of us can prove our point. Valky wrote : > What matters, in the context of my statement, is that Snape IS an > example, because he is known for his involvement in this part of the > WW. Del replies : Maybe, but at the moment he was attacked, he was alone and doing nothing reprehensible. I just don't see Harry attacking Draco when Draco is all alone, doing nothing wrong and not prepared. Draco would do that, not Harry. Valky wrote : > James baited Snape to challenge him. Del replies : No, James challenged Snape by verbally attacking him. A few centuries ago, people would duel because of a bad word, and nowadays, people still fight because they don't like what their neighbour said. A verbal attack is an attack, and an insult is a challenge. After all, when someone is insulted and doesn't react, isn't he considered a coward for not standing for himself ? James challenged Snape, not the other way around. Valky wrote : > Sirius got excited because his best mate was waltzing into mortal > danger again, just for fun. Del replies : Mortal danger !? Just by attacking another student in front of half the school!? I think you're giving Snape too much credit here. He was powerful, but not *that* powerful ! Huntergreen wrote : > > If anything, James and Sirius are setting rather poor examples of > > what 'non-pure-blood-fanatic-dark-arts-loving' wizards are like. Valky answered : > Yes I agree with this statement. But given the danger involved with > approaching a boy like Snape, I believe they thought they were doing > a pretty good job of it. Del replies : You keep repeating that, but do you have any canon stating that Snape was a mortal danger to anyone ? He was deep in the Dark Arts, all right, but that doesn't mean he was dangerous yet : he had neither enough knowledge, nor enough practice, nor enough raw power yet to be really dangerous. On the other hand, Lupin as a werewolf was indeed a mortal danger, and Sirius sent Snape to him. Valky wrote : > But as an adult he has decided that the best and fastest way is to > disarm your opponent, as James does. see COS The Duelling Club. > In the end even Snape disagrees with you Del and agrees with James. Del replies : The situation in the Duelling Club was very different. First of all, it was a *club*, not a real-life situation. And second, Snape was fighting another teacher (Lockhart) who was acting as a real peacock. Snape obviously enjoyed humiliating him by using the most harmless spell there was : Disarming. Huh, you're right in fact. Snape did agree with James on that one : nothing more pleasant than humiliation. Great >:-( !! Huntergreen wrote : > > As for teenage Snape, well, considering that he came to school > > with all those ideas of dark magic, who's to say he wasn't raised > > that way? (and yes, I know Sirius was too, but Sirius was sorted > > into Gryffindor, and thus had someone else to make an impression on > > him). He was taught to behave that way, so hating muggle-borns > > was "right" and "noble" for him. Clearly, he had it the wrong way > > around, but who taught him the right way? Valky answered : > Well Sirius really wanted to but he just couldn't get Snapes > attention you see........ Del replies : Sirius didn't want to *teach* him, he wanted to *force* him. And you don't show someone the way to goodness by being mean to them. You say so yourself : > You see DD cannot seduce young Snape to the side of good with a good > lashing of Sirius for Snapes gratification. Then it wouldn't be the > side that DD is on would it? Valky wrote : > It is our choices that make us what we are. Del replies : But somehow, the fact that Snape *chose*, against everything that had been taught to him as a child, against everything he had believed all his life, to follow DD in the end, doesn't count, does it ? Snape *chose* to work for DD and to stop using Dark Magic, but no, he's till and will always be evil old Snape. How logical is that ? And how fair ? Del From marcuscason at charter.net Sun Jul 11 18:07:41 2004 From: marcuscason at charter.net (kyntor70) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 18:07:41 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105639 Del wrote: > Let's imagine that somehow Draco lost his bodyguards, and someone > started humiliating him. Do you really think Hermione would come to > Draco's help ? I don'think so, because Draco has over and over again > insulted Hermione. But Lily did come, and she even seemed surprised > when Snape insulted her. > > Moreover, it might be speculation to say that Snape never exhibited > racism before, but it is just as much speculation to say he did. We > have only the Marauders' word that he did : not exactly an objective > opinion, is it ? Kyntor replies: You're right neither one of us know for sure if Snape has used "mudblood" before. However, he does use it here. My thinking is that if he used it here, he has probably used it before, whether or not it was against Lily. Del wrote: > So what ? It doesn't change anything to the fact that *in this scene* > James does NOT act with nobility. Kyntor replies: James is definately not being noble in this scene, he is being a jerk (he is also showing off for Lily). What these two points do suggest though is that the pensieve scene was not stand alone or that it displayed James' typical behaviour towards people. The pensieve scene was one confrontation between Snape and James of many. We really can't judge the severity of this one without seeing the others. Del wrote: > Mild physical injuries like the one James sustained hurt just the body > and damage only your physical ablitities for a while. Humiliation > hurts the mind and soul and can damage someone's self-worth forever. > Once a physical injury has healed, you don't remember it (I don't > remember the pain that followed my C-section), but hurtful words and > humiliations can haunt you forever (I still remember some humiliating > things that were done or said to me as a teenager, 15 years ago, and > it still makes me feel stupid and worthless). > To believe that physical injury is worse than emotional injury is a > common mistake. They are both damaging, but most people sustain the > first one much better and with far less long-lasting damage than the > second one. After all, which memories of Dudley's bullying does Harry > remember during his Occlumency lessons ? The humiliations, not the > beating up. Kyntor replies: What James did to Snape wasn't really all that sever. I had much worse done to me when I joined a fraternity in college. I really doubt that it scared Snape for life (and I doubt even more that James was trying to. As I mentioned before, he was showing off). What James did do Snape seemed to piss him off, not shame him. >From eveything I can gather about James' life, it has been pretty easy. It seems that at least up to this point he has had a pretty carefree childhood. He has hardly had the experiences necessary to realize that some emotional scars are worse than physical ones. James is immature, not sadistic. We really don't know what Snape was trying to do with that curse. Did it only hit James in the cheek because he tried to dodge it? Would the curse have missed him completely? Would it have cut his eye? We can't really say what Snapes intentions were. Cutting someone on the face or neck is very dangerous. I do not believe that anyone would attempt it unless they were trying to seriously hurt the other person. Kyntor From strawberry at jamm.com Sun Jul 11 18:26:38 2004 From: strawberry at jamm.com (Jenni A.M. Merrifield) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 18:26:38 -0000 Subject: Ron's "Fake" Predictions (Re: "childproofing" wands, and Neville in GoF) In-Reply-To: <200407061359.30477.lcolbert@netins.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105640 Lene' wrote: > One other thing sprang to mind this afternoon as I read GoF. Did > FakeMoody use Imperio or some other nefarious bit of business on > Neville when he invited him in for tea after upsetting him during > class by showing the Cruciatus curse on the spider? I note that it > isn't long after this that Ron makes one of his "fake predictions" > in which he tells Harry to beware of a friend who > is going to backstab him. [...snip...] Ya know... Crouch!Moody was a "friend" to Harry - helped him with the tasks, gave him advice, didn't rat him out to Snape when he was stuck on the stairs under the invisibility cloak. And Crouch!Moody definitely stabbed Harry in the back. Has anyone combed through the books in an attemt to enumerate how many of Ron's "fake" predictions have actually come true versus how many have failed? Jenni (who wanders off, muttering in a voice that sounds vaguely like Capt. Jack Sparrow: "that's very interesting...") From dontask2much at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 15:46:38 2004 From: dontask2much at yahoo.com (charme) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 11:46:38 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Will Dumbledore die? References: Message-ID: <01ad01c4675e$419977e0$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> No: HPFGUIDX 105641 wupu75: " If DD were to die would he have a portrait waiting for him at Hogwarts? We know nothing about how the former Hogwarts heads enter into the portrait realm. They seem to be "alive" for all intents and purposes; just not able to move about in the real wizarding world." charme: Oh, I am SO glad someone brought up "portraits". Wasn't it overwhelming in OoP how portrait wizards are used as compared to prior books? I've looked around to see if anyone has asked JK about this, and so far, I've not found anything about those magical paintings and portraits. Does anyone have any information they can share? muchas - charme From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 19:17:44 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 19:17:44 -0000 Subject: Bertha, Florence, Frank, Alice, Bella, Rudolphus... and Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105642 Neri, again answering his own post : I've just found the canon proof that Bellatrix is older than Sirius by 2 years. How, oh how could I miss it before??? Here it is: ------------------------------------------------------------------- OotP, Ch. 6: 'Bellatrix and her husband Rodolphus came in with Barty Crouch junior,' said Sirius, in the same brusque voice. 'Rodolphuss brother Rabastan was with them, too.' Then Harry remembered. He had seen Bellatrix Lestrange inside Dumbledore's Pensieve, the strange device in which thoughts and memories could be stored: a tall dark woman with heavy-lidded eyes, who had stood at her trial and proclaimed her continuing allegiance to Lord Voldemort, her pride that she had tried to find him after his downfall and her conviction that she would one day be rewarded for her loyalty. 'You never said she was your ? ' 'Does it matter if she's my cousin?' snapped Sirius. 'As far as I'm concerned, they're not my family. She's certainly not my family. I haven't seen her since I was your age, unless you count a glimpse of her coming into Azkaban. D'you think I'm proud of having a relative like her?' ------------------------------------------------------------------- Sooooo. Sirius didn't see Bella since he was 15, Harry's age in OotP. That is, when Sirius was 15 (Year 5) it was Bella's last year in Hogwarts. And Sirius is very specific about it. He doesn't mean he didn't see her at the Black's house. He means he didn't see her even at Hogwarts, because he includes even "a glimpse" in Azkaban as a single exception. So we already have: Canon (1): Bella is two years older than the marauders, Lily and Snape. Canon (2): Bella, Rudolphus, Avery, Rosier, Wilkes, and Snape were in a "gang of Slytherins" at school. All of them became DEs later. Canon (3): Bertha was "a few years" older than the marauders too. Canon (4): Bertha was "about 16" at the time of the kiss. Canon (5): Rosier and Wilkes were killed by aurors, a year before LV's fall. Almost canon (6): Alice and Frank Longbottom were older than Lily and James, to allow for 3 years of auror training before they had Neville. >From 2 and 3 follows: Bella and Bertha were approximately the same age (perhaps a year apart). >From 6: Alice and Frank were also in this age group. >From 1 and 2: Except for Snape, the rest of the "gang" could have been in this age group too. Florence probably also. >From 3 and 4: The marauders and Snape were at most 13 at the time of the kiss. It is thus not probable that one of them was Florence's kisser. Prime suspects of kissing Florence and hexing Bertha are thus: Frank, Rudolphus, Avery, Rosier, Wilkes. >From 5 and 6: Frank and/or Alice could be involved, as aurors, in killing Rosier and/or Wilkes. And of course we have: Canon (7): Bella and Rudolphus tortured Alice and Frank to insanity after LV's fall, and were sent to Azkaban for it. If all these things are not closely connected and of prime importance to the plot, I'll resign my position as a speculator in HPfGU. Neri From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 19:27:09 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 19:27:09 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105643 Valky wrote : > In turn you have also countered any future claim by yourself that > Snape was a hapless non-threatening target for James. So I thank you > for that. Del replies : Well, I wouldn't go as far as you do, and call Snape a mortal danger, but it's quite obvious he can fight. He is *Snape* after all. And even Neville can fight, so... Valky wrote : > It was in a related field of magic to the AK I would bet my entire > keepings in Grigotts on it. It was a Dark Arts Curse, I will take > that bet with anyone who dares. It was dangerous and it was the > precise 'case in point' to show that Snape was serious in battle > with James, deadly serious. I don't think he ever tried to hide that > fact. Del frowns and calls for a truce. She's just realised that this particular argument won't get anywhere because... "You know, Valky, we still haven't got a definition of what constitutes Dark Magic." The Fox looks startled : "Why, it's obvious, isn't it ? Anything magic intended to harm is Dark Magic, isn't it ?" But Del shakes her head : "I don't think it's that simple. It's just like Slinkhard saying that counter-jinx is just a name people give their jinxes when they want to make them sound more acceptable. According to him, one shouldn't even try to defend themselves actively, because that would be akin to attacking. To me, it's quite the same with Dark Magic. There might be things that are very obviously evil, but I'm sure most of it only depends on the intent of the user. After all, even AK is not automatically considered Dark Magic in times of war. The Aurors had been officially allowed to use the Unforgivables last time. So even if Snape's curse is something that would be considered evil in a direct attack, maybe it's considered fair game in defense ? After all, we don't hear any scream of fear or cry of outrage from the crowd when Snape uses his curse. And James doesn't even seem to be hurt by it beyond the gash in his cheek." The Fox ponders that for a while. Then she says : "But Snape was not defending himself, was he ? He wasn't being attacked any more when he cursed James." Del reviews the events in her head and replies : "Well, one could argue he was. The Impediment Jinx took time to wear off and Snape attacked as soon as he could. Just because James was looking somewhere else doesn't mean Snape wasn't supposed to take his turn in attacking as soon as he could. " The Fox isn't convinced : "Still he shouldn't have used a Dark Curse !" Del sighs : "Well, let's agree to disagre then, because in my mind he was entitled to use whatever means he could. He had been attacked for no reason, and not given a proper chance to defend himself. I'm disappointed that he should choose such a violent curse to retaliate, but I feel it was his right to do whatever he wanted to get out of a situation he had not done anything to get into. And I'm still not convinced it was a Dark Curse !" On to the next point, then :-) Valky wrote : > > > "...only because you're too noble to use them..." ring a bell to > > > you at all? Del answered : > > "Who wants to see me take off Snivelly's pants ?" > > Ring another bell ? Valky replied : > We aren't up to that bit yet, Del. Del smiles : Ah bah, you're the one who started with the out-of-context quotes :-) And anyway, I don't *care* if James was upset or whatever. In my opinion, anyone willing to use such methods, whatever the circumstances, is not noble at heart. Being willing to humiliate someone that thoroughly is the antithesis of nobility in my idea. Valky wrote : > Snape never takes his eyes off James. There is a silent dialogue > between them. Sirius is of no consequence in the slightest to Snape. > No matter what he does to get Snapes attention, Snape ignores him. > The three engaged in this incedent already know whats going on > between them theres no need to voice it. Except that it would help > US a whole lot to understand whats going on. > Look deeply at the silent dialogue, Del. It is James and Snape. > Sirius is desperate for a look in but Snape has no regard for him or > his opinion. Theres a huge backstory in just that small fact. Del replies : I agree, but that doesn't change the fact that James was not alone. Harry couldn't care less about Crabbe and Goyle, he ignores them superbly, but when they accompany Draco when Draco attacks Harry, it's still considered 3-on-1. Sirius was there, he constituted a second source of danger, forcing Snape to keep his eyes on both James and Sirius, and he took turns attacking Snape. Even if Snape only considered Sirius as an extension of James (like Harry does with C&G), it doesn't change the fact that it was still 2 wizards against one. Valky wrote : > My only defence is that James took on Snape alone to begin with. > After that Sirius attack was a precursor to his taunting only to > gain Snapes attention. Del replies : Nah :-) James and Sirius were together when James initially taunted Snape. 2 people. Psychologically, physically and magically, it was nowhere the same as James alone. Snape might have cared only about James, but the presence of Sirius did matter. Just like the presence of C&G does matter. Valky wrote : > I think that Sirius and James were neither intending to punish > Snape for his beliefs OR his acts. But to demonstrate a position of > authority over them for its own end. > In other words they stood over what he represented, to them, > entirely for the reason of standing over it. Nothing else. Del replies : Which in my eyes was both a perfectly unjustified and stupid thing to do. Unjustified because they have no right to harass a student because of his convictions, and stupid because they used evil to fight evil, which is always unproductive, if not counterproductive. Valky wrote : > My point is HE DOES change them to become the Snape we know in the > modern day HP World, whereas what is in James heart does not change. Del replies : Sorry Valky, but I'm afraid the whole point of James is that he *did* change :-) Lily said it herself : James was no better than Snape. She would not go out with 15-year-old James, but she married his 18-year-old counterpart. Both James and Snape changed drastically after the Pensieve scene, even if James changed earlier than Snape. Valky wrote : > (ps. I like your style Del, meet me in TBAY and we'll talk business > on the terms of our agreement.) Del replies : I'm afraid I made it clear in Feedback a few months ago that I'm completely alien to TBAY. Many people would laugh their head off if I, of all people, were to be found wandering in TBAY :-) Del From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 11 19:45:18 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 19:45:18 -0000 Subject: James the Berk Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105644 Charme (hi Charme, welcome) wrote: >Could you imagine how freakedthe Griffinders would be, hearing Snape, of all people, having a choice (of house)... I take it that by the Griffinders, you mean Sirius, James & co. But how would they know if Snape was making a choice. When Harry was muttering "Not Slytherin" I presume only the Sorting Hat could hear him. If Snape was muttering "Not....whatever he wanted or didn't want, surely the same would apply. You go on >This also could be part of the reason he hates Harry so - Harry made a decision that Snape himself could not. Again, how would he know what decision Harry had made, if only the Hat could hear him? Sylvia (who heartily endorses the motion that James is a berk, but hopes our American cousins realize that this is Cockney rhyming slang) From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sun Jul 11 20:09:30 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 20:09:30 -0000 Subject: Malfoy, Sirius and Ron&Harry friendship In-Reply-To: <20040711091308.24801.qmail@webmail31.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105645 > >> Siriusly Snapey Susan > >> What did Mr. > > Malfoy hope to gain from passing on the Diary? If he was hoping > to bring Tom > > back so he could become LV again (and the killings) would that > make Mr. Malfoy a > > 'good' DE? Amey: > Good "DE" as in he is good person but DE (like Snape) or he is loyal DE? Sorry, couldn't help it. > Anyways I think that is what kept him from getting too much chastised in graveyard. And also, he is the leader of the DEs in DoM, even if Bella is there. So I think he is something more than just plain DE. Might be LV's right hand. (Any connections to *Hand* in Prophesy???) SSSusan: That is *NOT* my quote, above your response--I'd just like to clarify that. MY part of that post was a reply to what Lucius might have hoped to accomplish with the diary. (In my opinion, he wanted to wreak havoc on Muggle-borns at Hogwarts *and* get DD in trouble.) So I've got nothing to say about "good DEs" because it wasn't my term. > >> SSSusan: > >> Thanks for clarifying. I didn't THINK there was canon for its being > >> subjective. If it *were* subjective, then Harry's concern makes > >> sense. That is, if it's SNAPE'S subjective memory and he [Snape] > >> moves, Harry is afraid he'll have to "go with Snape." Turned out > >> that WASN'T how the Pensieve operated, and Harry was able to roam. > >> I take that as evidence for its objectivity. > > Amey: > Yes, I was also thinking the same thing and came across this: > > > Harry looked anxiously behind him again. Snape remained close by, still buried in his exam questions - but this was Snape's memory and Harry was sure that if Snape chose to wander off in a different direction once outside in the grounds, he, Harry, would not be able to follow James any further. To his intense relief, however, when James and his three friends strode off down the lawn towards the lake, Snape followed, still poring over the exam paper and apparently with no fixed idea of where he was going. By keeping a little ahead of him, Harry managed to maintain a close watch on James and the others. > > > So, we don't have any canon either way yet. SSSusan: Point well taken! Siriusly Snapey Susan From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 20:10:25 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 20:10:25 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105646 Mayeaux45: > Well, I'd have to rule out the "Pygmalion Theory"(SC) all together. > Hermione is known for accepting people as they are (Ron and Harry > included), eventhough she might have a great dislike for them (Draco > Malfoy, Prof. Snape, etc...). I don't think she would go through the > "trouble" of trying to get Ron to change( or even Harry for that > matter). Del replies : Except that she does. She offered the boys *homework planners* for Christmas, how much more loudly could she have stated that she expected them to change ? Moreover, it's very common for people in love to consciously accept their loved one in their entirety, but to reject some parts of their personality unconsciously. I, Del, wrote : > > The way I read it, she's just baffled at 2 things : > > 1. that the boys should conclude so fast that Cho was crying > > because Harry was a bad kisser, when Cho cries all the time anyway, > > 2. that the boys could believe that anyone could be such a bad > > kisser that they would make their partner cry ! I mean, *I* didn't > > know about Cho crying all over the place, but I was completely > > baffled that *anyone* could think such an absurd thing ! My > > reaction was exactly the same as Hermione's : of course you're not > > a bad kisser, because nobody is, at least not to that extent. Mayeaux45 replied : > But the point I think UdderPD was trying to make was that Hermione > didn't put ANY thought into what she said before she spoke up. It > was instantaneous and w/o thought. Del replies : My gut reaction was instantaneous and without thought too. I reacted right along with Hermione, so that when she said it, I was thinking it. It's just like hearing 2 people talking next to you while you're reading a book, and then they start talking about somenone but they can't remember their name, and you just give it to them without even looking up. It's automatic : no Harry, you're not a bad kisser, nobody is, and Cho cries all the time anyway. I understand that Hermione wouldn't mention the "nobody is a bad kisser" part in front of Ron though :-) Mayeaux45 wrote : > And I have a question...How does Hermione know the places in the > castle that Cho does most of her crying in? Hermione doesn't come > off as a gossip queen to me. Makes me wonder...who has she been > talking to? She goes to eat with Harry and Ron, Del replies : That's when she saw Cho crying at mealtimes I guess. Mayeaux45 wrote : > then to the library, then to the common room, and then classes in > between all of that. She also doesn't seem like the kind of person > to talk during a lesson or doddle in between classes as so not to be > late. Hmmm? Del replies : You forgot that she has to go to the loos, which is the only other place, apart from meal times, that Hermione mentions. She does complete her sentence with "all over the place", but that could be either an exageration, or just something she heard Cho's friends whisper among themselves while Cho was crying in the loos. Del From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sun Jul 11 20:13:49 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 20:13:49 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes (or Snape-aholics and Siriophiles) In-Reply-To: <20040711025947.27298.qmail@web25110.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105647 SSSusan: > I'm curious how you would take DD's remark to Harry, then, near the > end of OoP: > ************************************ > "Snape stopped giving me Occlumency lessons!" Harry snarled. "He > threw me out of his office!" > > "I am aware of it," said DD heavily. "I have already said that it > was a mistake for me not to teach you myself...." > > "Snape made it worse, my scar always hurt worse after lessons with > him--... How do you know he wasn't trying to soften me up for > Voldemort...." > > "I trust Severus Snape," said DD simply. "But I forgot--another old > man's mistake--that some wounds run too deep for the healing. I > thought Professor Snape could overcome his feelings about your > father--I was wrong." [US, 833] > ************************************ > > Is this speech of DD's part of the act, then? Or is there > *something* going on w/ Snape besides a minor dislike of Harry and > an act to maintain for preventing spoiled!Harry? DD said Snape > was "too old & clever" to have allowed Sirius' "feeble taunts" to > hurt him. How can he turn around a minute later in the conversation > and say what he did about Snape's relationship with James? > > So IS Snape's hatred [or whatever word is appropriate] of James a > part of Snape's treatment of Harry or not? > Lee Moyo replied: > > Well the main reason besides not spoiling Harry, is that he is safe at the Dursleys and as long as he returns there he is protected by his mother's charm. Which is why LV can not get to him there. The fact that is not going to be spoiled as well is an advantage I think. SSSusan: I'm sorry, but I'm totally perplexed by your response here. I wasn't talked about the Dursleys or Harry's safety, really. I was asking what was going on w/ Snape's inability to set aside some old wounds and overcome his feelings about James. Does that make sense? Siriusly Snapey Susan From hallisallimalli at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 17:31:25 2004 From: hallisallimalli at yahoo.com (halli) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 17:31:25 -0000 Subject: ...HRH friendship - SS/PS the obstacle course was meant for HRH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105648 > vmonte: > Minerva's chess game -- Why did MM put this as an obstacle? Her > specialty is transfigurations!? This was definitely geared for Ron > who excels in chess. Halli: If you didn't notice, she transfigured the chess peices so that did have to do with transfiguration, and that looks like its definently a difficult bit of work. > > Madam Hooch's flying-key room -- This is obviously geared for Harry > who is great at flying. First I would like to point out that it wasn't Madam Hooch's, it was Flitwick, who charmed the keys to fly. And Harrys not the only person who can fly you know. > > DD's Mirror-of-Erised -- Harry even states that DD got him > acquainted with it so that he would know how it works. > Harry found the Mirror on his own, DD just told him about it, and told him to stop looking for it. > Professor Sprout's Devil's Snare ? Hermione figures this out. > Well anyone could figure that out if they ever paid an inkling of attention in Herbology. And if it wasn't geared at HRH, then it was geared at an adult wizard, who would probably know this stuff anyways. > vmonte: > > It is unusual that Snape's obstacle has to do with logic, not > potions. I think that out of all of these obstacles, Snape's really > seems geared for Voldemort. It has to do with potions, obviously, and I would also like to point out that these obstacles are actually obstacles. They aren't thinking about whats the easiest thing I could come up with that even a bunch of first years could break through? Perhaps he believed that Voldemort would > know every kind of potion there was--so he comes up with a puzzle. > And since Hermione is a super brain, she figures it out anyway. > (Or, maybe he did mean it for Hermione to solve.) > > So finally, what I'm trying to say is that Dumbledore intended for > the children to go through the obstacle course. He also intended for > Harry to confront Voldemort at its end. He prepares Harry for this > confrontation. > > DD created this obstacle course for the children. Is he training > them for an as yet mentioned future role? > I doubt that DD sat down and thought "Hmm, Harrys good at flying, we'll do that, Hermione's smart, so she can solve this...Ron! Ron can play chess! I'll have Minerva do that!" ...Just seems highly unlikely that he prepared it specifically for a bunch of first year students when there were actual dark wizards who could easily break through something set at that level of difficulty, and who were after the stone. I'm sorry it just seems to dangerous an artifact to allow VM to get his hands on it simply because they think Harrys going to get to it. Too risky. Halli From happybean98 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 17:50:20 2004 From: happybean98 at yahoo.com (happybean98) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 17:50:20 -0000 Subject: FILK: Spy Kittys - And the Squibs Who Love Them Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105649 Spy Kittys - And the Squibs Who Love Them To the tune of "I'm a Believer" by the Monkees ARGUS FILCH: (back up meows by MRS. NORRIS) I thought love was only true for magic men. Then, for wizard kind but not for me. Squibs like me were loners (meowmeow, meowmeow) That's the way it seemed (meowmeow, meowmeow) Dissapointment haunted all my dreams... REFRAIN: Then I saw her face! Now I'm a believer! Arabella Figg Is a squib like me! I'm in love, Ooo I'm a believer,I couldn't leave her if I tried. Just found out- We both have a 'kitty thing' They spy for us and tell us what they spot. Norris prowls the school. (meowmeow, meowmeow) Tibbles walks the street... (meowmeow, meowmeow) Trying to keep Mundungus on his beat. Then I saw her face! Now I'm a believer! Arabella Figg Is a squib like me! I'm in love Oooh I'm a believer, I couldn't leave her if I tried. When Umbridge left, I couldn't hide my misery. Figgy came and all the world was sweet. I fancy carpet slippers Tartan suits me fine Can't get that batty lady off my mind. REFRAIN -happybean98 (who is new at FILKS) From adanabbett at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 17:52:45 2004 From: adanabbett at yahoo.com (Adan) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 17:52:45 -0000 Subject: HP and the Half Blood Git In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105650 > Alla: > I am also in complete agreement with you. Not being a DE does not, > does not make Snape a good person, IMO. Adequate treatment of the > human beings around him does. > > > I think Koinonia said recently that we are using the > word "redemption" too easily. I agree. Snape is working at > redemption,I guess. > > But he is not redeemed himself yet, IMO. Very far from it. > > No, he hasn't. Yet. I do believe he is working up to it, but we won't know if he succeeds until pretty near the end of bk. 7 I bet. I just can't decide if I want him to succeed. Is it too fluffy for that? I mean, I'd be all happy-happy, joy-joy with LV vanquished by Harry (with a little help from his friends), all of the Weasleys still alive (including Percy) with Arthur as the MoM allowing for renovations at the Burrow, Lucius and Draco humbled and near penniless, Lupin happily settled in to teach permanently at Hogwarts, Fred and George appearing on the cover of "Galleon" magazine as entrepenuers of the century, the house-elves unionizing and hiring Pansy to clean their bathrooms for minimum wage, Neville perfecting a graft of the mimbulous mimbetonia and devil's snare where unlucky trespassers are choked and slimed until the MagicPolice come, Luna finding the snorkak, Ron with Hermione, Harry with Ginny, and Dumbledore resting in his office with a years supply of woolen socks, but... I don't know that that would make for intriguing reading. Adan, with the realization just dawning that I don't know WHAT I'd want for Snape. My favorite character and I just have no clue. Weird. And also just struck that the Weasley home is the Burrow when just a couple of days ago I was looking for a Mole... From adanabbett at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 17:59:03 2004 From: adanabbett at yahoo.com (Adan) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 17:59:03 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle in CoS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105651 > Sonya wrote: > > Do you think memory Tom knew what had happened to LV since he made > the MemoryTom? > > I'm not sure he was aware of all the going on's. Do you suppose Mr. > Malfoy was able to write in the Diary and tell him what was going > on? What did Mr.Malfoy hope to gain from passing on the Diary? If > he was hoping to bring Tom back so he could become LV again (and the > killings) would that make Mr. Malfoy a 'good' DE? I have a hard time picturing Lucius sitting on his bed scribbling away in the diary. Just not a very manly thing. I've always thought diaries were rather a "girly" thing, and therefore see how giving the diary specifically to Ginny could have been the plan because there was a chance that she would use it. Give it to Ron and I wonder if it'd even have made it to Hogwarts. I see it thrown in the back of his closet. Adan, who never bothered with a diary anyway. From plungy116 at aol.com Sun Jul 11 17:58:50 2004 From: plungy116 at aol.com (haraheart) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 17:58:50 -0000 Subject: Will Dumbledore die? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105652 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "wupu75" wrote: > DD says in OoTP that he doesn't care what they do as > long as they don't take him off the chocolate frog cards. If he > could move amongst the choco frog cards this statement that appears > as a joke on the surface could be one of DD's most profound > statements. > DD could become more powerful and formidable in death than in life. Wow I never though of it like that (bit of a novice at this deep HP thinking - you may have noticed) Just imagine all those chocolate frog cards conversing with each other - he could reach every wizarding family with children (and adults) that eat chocolate frogs. What a sneaky piece of subterfuge. She's dead clever that JKR isn't she? Sarah xx From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 20:31:42 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 20:31:42 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105653 Valky wrote previously: > > > > James only uses physically non-harmful hexes Snape ( I won't > say harmless because I concede the truth of psychological harm), > Snape employs a more dangerous attack on James than James even > considers unleashing on Snape. Although I accept that James was > indeed having a bit o' a lark at Snapes expense I see he was > *already noble*. > > Valky: snip. > It was in a related field of magic to the AK I would bet my entire > keepings in Grigotts on it. It was a Dark Arts Curse, I will take > that bet with anyone who dares. It was dangerous and it was the > precise 'case in point' to show that Snape was serious in battle > with James, deadly serious. I don't think he ever tried to hide that > fact. snip. Del previously: > > Snape is a lot of unpleasant things, but he's not *stupid*. I > > seriously doubt that he would go killing a fellow student in broad > > daylight and in front of dozens of eye-witnesses. > > Valky: > You are talking about Snape the adult. I see absolutely no evidence > in Snape the child that even remotely implies an intelligent, > subtle, coolheaded person in control of himself. > Now, he may have been smart enough to not attempt murder in the > broad daylight, this is true. Nevertheless, he was baying for James > blood. He would have taken whatever he could get, I see no canon > whatsoever in the pensieve scene to prove that he was any more > rational than this. > > > Del: > > Honestly, if he really wanted to kill James, he could do it in a > much more discrete way. Just send a fake note from Lily telling him > to meet her in a secluded place at night, and zap him away from > spying eyes. > > > > Valky: > Well I would not have put it past him to have done so at some stage. > The truth is, i am soooo sure lets take another bet!, the only > person in range of these two boys that was the slighest bit a > challenge for them was each other. > James was his nemesis. Not just his bully. > > > Alla: Oooo, Valky. It pains me to disagree with you , it really does. :o) It is just as painful for me to agree with Del, honestly, but I have to do it. :) Not fully , mind you, but still. Valky, I am positive that Pensieve scene had a HUGE backstory. I am ready to bet ANYTHING that there was a very old feuld either between James/or Sirius and Snape or their families. I cannot exclude the possibility that either James and Snape or Sirius and Snape were related and they knew each other really well before they came to Hogwarts. I am also pretty sure that Snape's family knew Dark Arts and James hated Dark Arts. I will never convict James and Sirius as bad people based on this scene alone, because really, if that was the worst thing they ever done in life, they are still retty good people in my book. Having said all that, there is nothing, NOTHING , which can justify what James and Sirius did to Snape in that scene. Now, if we will learn that pensieve is subjective (No, I don't consider the fact that Harry could see memories not only from Snape's head to be enough proof to the contrary) and say James' cut on the cheek was in reality bloody wound, if Snape provoked them first somehow, then I will reevaluate. Right now, on its face it was reprehensible. Let's take my favourite example - Snape and Harry. We could learn as some Snape advocates say that Snape has the best intentions toward Harry. To me, it does not change anything. What Snape does to this child is reprehensible at FACE VALUE and no supposed good intentions will justify that. Same thing with the pensieve scene - even if we learn that James/Sirius and Snape were bitter enemies, who both could dish it out, at FACE VALUE Pensieve scene is really bad. Now, I am not saying that Snape was a poor dear angel in that scene. But the only person who could complain was Lily and she gave me the impression that she could handle Snape pretty well. If Lily started hexing Snape after that scene, that I would understand really well. (No, that was not JUST A NAME, that Snape called her. To me, it indicates what kind of views that person holds. And, NO, there are some views ,which even though person is allowed to have, the person is not allowed to say them to other people, not just act on them) If pensieve is objective, whatever Snape wanted to do to James, was well-deserved, IMO Alla From adanabbett at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 19:41:00 2004 From: adanabbett at yahoo.com (Adan) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 19:41:00 -0000 Subject: PoA Question (foreshadowing Books 6 & 7) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105654 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mhbobbin" wrote: > I also think that the film's use of a Stonehenge-like set outside the > bridge, completed before Book 5 with its subtle Stonehenge references, > reinforces the idea that JKR is taking Harry to Stonehenge in Book 6 > or 7. Lucius Malfoy's address is given in Book 5 as Wiltshire, where > Stonehenge is located. What it means in JKR's world is yet to be revealed. > I've been coming around to that idea myself. Stonehenge is rather iconic to most of the world, and when looking around I came up with the following in the area. Avebury. I know, it's pretty well known. And the town of Avebury actually encroaches inside the largest circle. So, two points against me. But Avebury is thought by many to be more significant than Stonehenge. And then there is the theory of William Stukeley the historian that systematically catalogued and measured the site. "Stukeley was the first observer in historical times to clearly recognize that the original ground plan of Avebury was a representation of the body of a serpent passing through a circle and thus forming a traditional alchemical symbol." To see more: (sorry, I don't know how to do links here!) Earths Mysteries (scroll down to see the serpent) http://witcombe.sbc.edu/earthmysteries/EMAvebury.html Stone ring of Avebury (with a nice picture) http://www.sacredsites.com/europe/england/avebury.html I think I'm going to give this some more thought. Adan From rebekia_krum at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 11 20:17:19 2004 From: rebekia_krum at yahoo.co.uk (rebekia_krum) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 20:17:19 -0000 Subject: Will Dumbledore die? In-Reply-To: <01ad01c4675e$419977e0$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105655 Jim- Nice post on Hermione's transformation. I'd have to agree with you...besides her I'd have to say Neville is a close second. His turn around in OotP is really exciting and I'm so intrigued to see where he goes from there. > charme: > > Oh, I am SO glad someone brought up "portraits". Wasn't it overwhelming in > OoP how portrait wizards are used as compared to prior books? I second that!! Even beyond the Head Masters...with Sirius' mothers portrait being able to react and speak (the first outside Hogwarts paintings we've seen)....I'm wondering if that's the only portrait of her....does she move as well? We know in PoA that any portrait or paintings can move from one to another inside Hogwarts. The Fat Lady can leave and visit friends or visa versa. But it appears the HeadMasters have to have another portrait hanging elsewhere for them to move into in order to leave (Or maybe just leaving Hogwarts grounds. Maybe they can move between paintings inside Hogwarts).....Couldn't Dumbledore already have a portrait of himself at Hogwarts? I know most authority figures have their portraints taken while they're in office. I mentioned this in my first post to the board....Did DD have another portrait of himself at Godric's Hollow? So he could witness the events that happened to Lily and James the night of the attack? From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 20:36:34 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 20:36:34 -0000 Subject: Sorting (was : James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105656 charme wrote : > Potter, Black, Lupin all would have already been sorted, because > canon supports an alphabetical sequence of events in that regard. > Could you imagine how freaked the Gryffindors would be hearing Snape, > of all people, having a choice?! This also could be part of the > reason he hates Harry so - Harry made a decision that Snape himself > could not. Del replies : First of all, welcome !! And then I'm afraid the idea that the other students *hear* the discussions between a student and the Hat is movie-contamination. In the books, it's pretty clear that nobody knows that the Hat recommended Slytherin to Harry (the events in CoS would have been even worse for Harry if the other students had known that), and it took 5 years for Harry and Ron to find out that the Hat had hesitated between Ravenclaw and Gryffindor for Hermione : obviously, they didn't hear that. What a student and the Hat tell each other is strictly private, so even if the Hat hesitated for Snape, nobody can know that. Del, who wonders why it took so long for the Hat to sort Neville. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 20:41:08 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 20:41:08 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes In-Reply-To: <20040711134121.92845.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105657 > Alla previously: > > Of what use Snape will be to Voldemort if he cannot be a spy? > > > > enderbean: > > I seemed to get the impression from the books that Snape was an excellent potions master. I don't think it would be too far-fetched for Voldemort to want Snape for that. If you were an evil wizard planning to take over the world potions could come in pretty handy. But that's just my opinion. Alla: OK, then let's go back to my original question. What cover Snape has to maintain by being nasty to Harry? If Voldemort want Snape for his potion making skills, Voldemort will still want Snape to pretend that he is loyal to Dumbledore. How is being nasty to Harry shows to Voldemort that Snape is loyal to Dumbledore? From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 20:52:39 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 20:52:39 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: <20040711091024.22738.qmail@webmail9.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105658 Amey wrote : > 1. So, there is no mention that James or Sirius had their wands out > before Snape did. Del replies : No, but there's no mention either of when exactly James got his wand out. In particular, there's no mention that James got his want out because Snape was getting his own out. Amey wrote : > 2. It was neven 1 vs 2, in normal duel (don't know about wizard duel) > 1 vs 2 defination is 2 persons attacking 1 *at the same time*. And > James and Sirius never attacked Snape together. Del replies : In my book, a fair duel is not a duel where 2 people take turn attacking a third one. Even if James and Sirius never attacked at the same time, they still forced Snape to keep an eye on both of them at the same time, to split his attention between the two of them, and to guess who was going to attack next. I call that 2-on-1 just like I call Malfoy attacking Harry with the help of Crabbe and Goyle 3-on-1. If what James and Sirius did is OK, then Draco and his buddies don't do anything wrong either. Amey wrote : > The point here is that he wasn't sorted into Slytherin. (I hear > people shouting here... listen to me fully people). What I mean is if > he was so interested in Dark Arts, he must have Wizard background, > and must have heard about the Hogwarts houses and their qualities? If > he had choice (like Harry), why didn't he choose any other house? > (Ravenclaw would have suited him surely) So it is as much question of > choice. So he decided to go that way, and chose his friends, peers > himself. That is the difference between him and Sirius (considering > they have similar Dark background). Del replies : But *why* should he have chosen another House ?? Slytherin is NOT a bad House, and it was even less so at the time. We know NOW that many DEs were former Slytherins, but when Snape got to Hogwarts, the VWI was barely starting, and Slytherin House was not yet tainted with the Dark Mark of the DEs. And what if Slytherin was the House Snape's family had been Sorted in for generations ? He would then have expected to be Sorted there. He was just an 11-year-old boy, remember. Moreover, you assume that he had a choice, but we don't know that. Even if Draco had wanted a try at another House, he didn't get a chance. As for Sirius, there's NO PROOF that he CHOSE not to go to Slytherin. As far as we know, maybe he was enraged at the Hat for weeks for putting him in Gryffindor. Del From heynorty at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 18:44:27 2004 From: heynorty at yahoo.com (heynorty) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 18:44:27 -0000 Subject: Hermione's growth (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105659 Jim Ferer wrote: > > > > > HERMIONE LEARNS COMPASSION > > > > > > Hermione wasn't the best one to take troubled feelings to, was she? > > > Anything that didn't fit her "mind over matter" mindset was > > dismissed. > > > As late as PoA her "rational" side got the better of her when > > > Lavender's rabbit was killed, although she cared enough about > > Lavender > > > to at least look anxious. I would really like to know the > > > soul-searching Hermione went through after that. David wrote: > > Mostly I thought this a great post, but I have a different take on > > the incident of Lavender's rabbit. I'm almost totally with Hermione > > on this one. Trelawney is preying on Lavender (and Parvati), and > > Hermione sees it, and is attempting to rescue Lavender. > > > > Her compassion in the situation is signalled by the hesitancy with > > which she broaches the subject. As I see it, she is not insensitive > > but rather feels that this issue is higher priority and takes the > > risk of alienating Lavender and her friends. > > > > Her weakness in the situation is her insecurity, that she feels she > > has to intervene there and then. I think her compassion is fine. > To go back to the earlier post, Hermione Granger was sorted into Gryffindor because--she asked the hat to be sorted there. The hat did not decide to put her into Gryffindor, she already decided to go there. This is why it did not take a long time to place her. She already had in her head to placed in one house and one house only. I view this much in the same way as Harry. Harry would have like to be have been sorted into any other house other than Slytherin. He would have even settled for Hufflepuff. The hat's original intention was to place him into Slytherin. Harry had to make a case of not being placed into Slytherin. In fact he had to no desire to be part of Slytherin--much in the same way Hermione had no desire to be in Gryffindor. In regards to Hermione, she would have an easier time at Hogwarts if she was placed in Ravenclaw. She would have done better within Ravenclaw. It would be quite a story indeed, if Harry was placed in Slytherin and Hermione was placed in Ravenclaw. While I would say that Hermione's journey has been very interesting and more life changing than say Ron's. I think the case of her maturation has been overstated. I would say that in many respects-- she is essentially the same person that entered Hogwarts, for good and for bad. In terms of her knowledge, that has not changed. It is obvious that her years at Hogwarts--through class she was able to accumulate more knowledge and magical experience. More importantly, she was able to add that knowledge with her adventures with Harry. So in one sense she is very experienced young person, but I would not call her wise, in say the Dumbledore sense. One could argue that after the Rita Skeeter escapade from book 4 and 5--she is downright foolish. This article discusses this much farther in length: www.redhen- publications.com/Skeeter.html To sum up the article, it argues that hermione should have turned Rita over to Dumbledore, instead of keeping her locked away in a jar. The reason for this is Dumbledore could have used her in a much better way than Hermione. The reason that Dumbledore and Harry had to much ill will in Book 4-5 was the result of Rita's articles. If Dumbledore had a chance to turn her, offer her something in return--he and Harry might have been saved some unwanted grief. In so much has her vaunted S.P.E.W. campaign, while is displays a certain sense of compassion. I would say it does not display any real empathy for the house elves or their particular situation. I view it has a very top down, almost condescending treatment. She is in essance saying look, you are too stupid to realize that you are slaves. So I shall be the one to free you. While she might have noble intentions, she fails to realize that 1.) most of the house elves do not want to be free 2.) more importantly--what will a whole group of free house elves do with themselves. Dobby is more the execption rather than the rule. She of all people should realize that if the house elves are free overnight, they are not better off than they were. They would be "free" but then what. If this would follow say the end of slavery in the US--they would free and the subject to Jim Crow type laws. There is a reason why there was a statue of all the non-human magical animals looking up, and it because they aspire to be like wizards or witches. In addition, her stunt with the Centuars does not earn her any points with them as well. She just assumed they would help her, even though they tried to kill Harry and her only a day ago. He comment of "I never liked horses" about Firenze is a telling one as well. So yes, while I would say she seems to be a more rounded person. I don't see her really ever changing herself or growing in any meaningful way. I hasten to add, that this might change by book 7 and there will be a whole new light shed on the subject. From griffin782002 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 19:00:00 2004 From: griffin782002 at yahoo.com (sp. sot.) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:00:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Malfoy, Sirius and Ron&Harry friendship In-Reply-To: <000e01c4674c$9adac320$29c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: <20040711190000.1863.qmail@web90009.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105660 . Amey: "They're not birds!" Harry said suddenly. "They're keys! Winged keys- look carefully. So that must mean..." he looked around the chamber while the other two squinted up at the flock of keys. "... yes-look! Broomsticks! We've got to catch the key to the door!" (SS/PS) So we don't know exactly how many brromsticks are there. " Cathy: There were at least three as all three, HRH, flew them to catch the key. If DD had only expected one person to be down there trying to steal the stone, why would there have been more than one broom? In fact, why was there a broom at all? If the object was to keep a person *from getting to the stone* why give them the means to catch the key in the first place? Grffin782002 now: I my opinion, there had to be three people to catch the key. When Harry tried to catch it by himself, he failed. They probably wanted to make difficult for one persor to catch the key, which makes me wonder who Quirrel caught it. Griffin782002 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From drliss at comcast.net Sun Jul 11 20:15:20 2004 From: drliss at comcast.net (Lissa Hess) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 16:15:20 -0400 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: <1089464703.12172.43783.m3@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20040711160735.021f6bf8@mail.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 105661 Hi. New poster here, and certainly a major Lupin Lover (not that that's too relevant at the moment!). I just really wanted to comment on the response most people have to James in Snape's Worst Memory. (Forgive me if this one's been brought up before!) There's no doubt James' and Sirius' (and even Lupin's, to an extent) behavior rings a bell with most of us and with Harry. We can all agree that it's terrible to threaten someone with bodily harm, but we get just as strong a reaction watching the threat of humiliation. I think the reason we (and Harry!) respond so strongly to this one is experience. Not all of us are threatened with someone murdering us. But how many of us remember being horribly embarrassed on the playground? And still have some rancor over those memories? I read what James et al did to Snape and I feel furious at them because I remember in sixth grade an entire class of kids trying to force me to kiss a guy on the playground- and I think of that. I'm also willing to bet that at least one of my sixth grade tormenters has read Snape's Worst Memory and cringed thinking "Oh, man, I remember doing that!" and immediately leaving the memory behind because it's so uncomfortable. Anyway, my current theory on why Snape's Worst Memory really gets people so worked up! Lissa From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 21:26:39 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:26:39 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105662 Kyntor wrote : > You're right neither one of us know for sure if Snape has > used "mudblood" before. However, he does use it here. My thinking > is that if he used it here, he has probably used it before, whether > or not it was against Lily. Del replies : Don't get me wrong, I agree with you : I'm pretty sure the word must have escaped Snape's mouth quite a few times in all those years. But my point is : we don't *know* that, we have no *proof*. And so we can't use it as an argument. Kyntor wrote : > James is definately not being noble in this scene, he is being a jerk > (he is also showing off for Lily). What these two points do suggest > though is that the pensieve scene was not stand alone or that it > displayed James' typical behaviour towards people. The pensieve > scene was one confrontation between Snape and James of many. We > really can't judge the severity of this one without seeing the > others. Del replies : I agree. However, my original point, quite a few posts ago, was to counter Valky's idea that James showed nobility during that scene. No, he did not, IMO. I, Del, wrote : > > To believe that physical injury is worse than emotional injury is a > > common mistake. They are both damaging, but most people sustain the > > first one much better and with far less long-lasting damage than > > the second one. After all, which memories of Dudley's bullying does > > Harry remember during his Occlumency lessons ? The humiliations, > > not the beating up. Kyntor answered : > What James did to Snape wasn't really all that sever. I had much > worse done to me when I joined a fraternity in college. I really > doubt that it scared Snape for life (and I doubt even more that James > was trying to. As I mentioned before, he was showing off). What > James did do Snape seemed to piss him off, not shame him. Del replies : I don't care. To me, humiliation is mean and bad, period. Just because other people do worse or because the victim doesn't *seem* to care doesn't make the facts more acceptable. James *was* denying Snape his dignity as a human being, that is all I'm concerned about. Kyntor wrote : > James is immature, not sadistic. Del replies : Agreed. That doesn't change the fact that what he did was wrong. Kyntor wrote : > We really don't know what Snape was trying to do with that curse. > Did it only hit James in the cheek because he tried to dodge it? > Would the curse have missed him completely? Would it have cut his > eye? We can't really say what Snapes intentions were. Cutting > someone on the face or neck is very dangerous. I do not believe that > anyone would attempt it unless they were trying to seriously hurt the > other person. Del replies : We have no indication that James moved. It seems that the curse did exactly what Snape intended it to do. And *of course* Snape was trying to hurt James ! James had just attacked him for no reason, he had *repeatedly* made fun of him in both words and actions, and he was stupid enough for not checking on Snape. I'd say Snape had all the reasons in the world to want to hurt James. Maybe someone more noble than Snape, like Harry, would have just tried to Disarm James. But then there would still have been Sirius. There was no way to get rid of both of them at the same time, so I guess Snape just settled on doing the maximum harm he could on his one unique chance to retaliate. Del From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sun Jul 11 21:30:27 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:30:27 -0000 Subject: Who's the third dead death eater??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105663 Neri: > Checking something in the graveyard scene (GoF, Ch. 33) I just came across something I've missed before: The largest gap in the DEs > circle includes 3 empty places, where LV says should have stood three DEs who are "dead in my service". OK, I know two of the DEs he > means: Rosier and Wilkes. But who's the third? Am I missing someone obvious? He can't be meaning Regulus Black, right?An > unaccounted DE is a very suspicious thing, even (or especially) if > he's supposed to be dead. Jen: I wouldn't put it past Voldemort to say Regulus died in his service, lol. Here are some other possibilities: 1) Quirrell. Might be a possibility, but it sounds like the meeting in Albania was purely coincidental; LV didn't know him prior to that. 2) Florence. You gave me the idea for this one Neri, from your excellent post on the Slytherin gang. 3) Mrs. Crouch! Highly unlikley, but we have no information on her and she DID help her son escape. 4) Mystery person. Someone in the Order photo who was actually a spy, besides Wormtail. We have the Prewett brothers, Dorcas Meadows, Edgar Bones, Benjy Fenwick & Marlene McKinnon. The only one with connections we know of are the Prewett brothers with Molly. Something to think about. I might just have to vote for Mrs. Crouch on this one! Jen, wondering if Mrs. Crouch is important because she did sacrifice herslef for her son like someone else we know.... From chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 21:37:53 2004 From: chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com (alora) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:37:53 -0000 Subject: Gnomes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105664 This may sound really, really stupid, but what good are gnomes? Could they be used in the wizard world somehow, other than to tear up your garden? When Harry and Ron de-gnome the garden, they yell, "Geroff me! Geroff me!" Are they self-aware? It sounds like they have a simple vocabulary, too. I'm not about to throw out a totally ridiculous theory (even though I think of some), but I am just wondering if anyone else has ideas about what else they might do or be useful for. Alora :) From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 21:41:52 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:41:52 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105665 Alla wrote : > It is just as painful for me to agree with Del, honestly, but I have > to do it. :) Not fully , mind you, but still. (An evil laughter can be heard in the background. "Yes, YES, I *finally* got Alla to agree with me, and on a Snape subject too !! Ah ah ! Ahahahahahahah !!! I am a GENIUS !!! *mad cackling*) Alla wrote : > Valky, I am positive that Pensieve scene had a HUGE backstory. I am > ready to bet ANYTHING that there was a very old feuld either between > James/or Sirius and Snape or their families. > > I cannot exclude the possibility that either James and Snape or > Sirius and Snape were related and they knew each other really well > before they came to Hogwarts. > > I am also pretty sure that Snape's family knew Dark Arts and James > hated Dark Arts. > > I will never convict James and Sirius as bad people based on this > scene alone, because really, if that was the worst thing they ever > done in life, they are still retty good people in my book. > > Having said all that, there is nothing, NOTHING , which can justify > what James and Sirius did to Snape in that scene. Del replies : Hmm, now that you mention it, I realise that maybe I didn't make that point clear enough : I was just discussing the Pensieve scene. I too am fully convinced that there's a whole backstory. James and Snape hated each other at least as much as Draco and Harry do. I know that. It was only James' behaviour *in that one scene* that I was criticising. Alla wrote : > Now, if we will learn that pensieve is subjective Del replies : We have no proof that a Pensieve memory is objective, but I would be *thoroughly* disappointed to learn that it isn't, because it would *undermine* the whole point of the Pensieve IMO. DD explained that he puts his memories in the Pensieve in order to help himself find patterns and links he couldn't find otherwise. But if those memories are flawed because subjective to start with, then how can he expect to make anything worthwhile out of them ? In my idea, the whole point of putting them outside of his own head is precisely that it's easier to observe them rationally this way, with an outsider's view, in other words : objectively. Alla wrote : > If Lily started hexing Snape after that scene, that I would > understand really well. (No, that was not JUST A NAME, that Snape > called her. To me, it indicates what kind of views that person holds. > And, NO, there are some views ,which even though person is allowed to > have, the person is not allowed to say them to other people, not just > act on them) Del replies : In my idea, *saying* the word is already *acting* on the racist belief. A thought, a belief, a wish, all those are not real actions. But a word is. A lesser kind of action maybe, but an action nonetheless. Del From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sun Jul 11 21:45:17 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:45:17 -0000 Subject: Who's the third dead death eater??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105666 > Jen: I wouldn't put it past Voldemort to say Regulus died in his > service, lol. Here are some other possibilities: > > 1) Quirrell. Might be a possibility, but it sounds like the meeting > in Albania was purely coincidental; LV didn't know him prior to > that. > > 2) Florence. You gave me the idea for this one Neri, from your > excellent post on the Slytherin gang. > > 3) Mrs. Crouch! Highly unlikley, but we have no information on her > and she DID help her son escape. > > 4) Mystery person. Someone in the Order photo who was actually a > spy, besides Wormtail. We have the Prewett brothers, Dorcas Meadows, > Edgar Bones, Benjy Fenwick & Marlene McKinnon. The only one with > connections we know of are the Prewett brothers with Molly. Jen: Answering my own posts too, Neri! But I just remembered Travers in GOF, who helped murder the McKinnons; the one Karkaroff tried to finger but was too late. The aurors caught him, but he wasn't mentioned in the DOM. He must have died in Azkaban. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 21:47:39 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:47:39 -0000 Subject: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105667 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dzeytoun" wrote: > A lot of threads lately have been devoted to explaining mysteries of > the relationships among Snape, Harry, and Dumbledore. These > relationships are fascinating, but also puzzling and inconsistent. > To a large extent we are lacking a lot of information we need. We > are also hampered by the tight Harry-centric POV JKR uses. > > However, and this isn't going to make me popular, I think a lot of > the explanation for why these three act the way they do is, well, > that they HAVE to act that way for the plot to go the way JKR wants > it to. The fact is that, good a writer as JKR is, characterization > is her severe weak point. She just isn't very good at explaining > what makes people tick. Look at the trio. After five books we STILL > don't really know much about what kind of people Ron and Hermione > really are, and why they make the decisions they do. > > True, a lot of this is due to POV. But an awful lot is also because > JKR sometimes commits the cardinal sin of writing, she lots plot > dictate character instead of the other way around. A lot of the > seeming inconsistencies and flaws really ARE inconstistencies and > flaws. > > In this case why does Dumbledore let Snape act the way he does toward > Harry? Because it's needed for the plot. Dumbledore IS NOT a > Machiavellian puppet master. Snape and Dumbledore ARE NOT engaged in > some tag team good cop/bad cop arrangement to teach Harry about > life. Snape IS NOT secretly a good guy who abuses Harry and Neville > for their own good. Dumbledore IS NOT some secret evil genius out to > manipulate Snape, Harry, and everybody else for some nefarious end. > JKR wanted a good, kindly wizard headmaster to be Harry's mentor and > an nasty, difficult teacher to be his nemesis. Therefore, that's the > way she writes things. This creates contradictions and flaws. And > that, by and large, is ALL they are. > > We want things to make sense. But the story often doesn't. And why > should it? Life usually doesn't make sense. Theories about Snape > and Dumbledore conspiring together to teach Harry about life are the > same as theories about how Oswald had help on the grassy knoll in > Dallas. That is they are conspiracy theories aimed at reducing the > complexity of things to some controllable, understandable set of > motives and decisions. > > And yes, I realize I'm being inconsistent in saying that JKR has > flaws in the story on one hand and the story's are like life on the > other. A foolish consistency and all that. > > Now such theories are a heck of a lot of fun. But at the end of the > day, they almost never reveal anything much. > > Dzeytoun Alla: What is it with me today? I am inclined to disagree with my favourite posters here. :o) No, Dzeytoun, you will never be unpopular in my eyes, on the contrary. :) Let me state first of all that I do agree with some of the points you made. As such - I don't really believe in Dumbledore Evil manipulator, but I do believe that there are enough clues in canon that may give us a reason to speculate about that. After all, in that nice speech at the end of OoP, Dumbledore does talk about his "Plan". He is the leader of the resistance after all, how can he not have a plan? And, yes, I believe that Harry plays crucial part in this plan. Having said all that, I believe that Dumbledore indeed told Harry everything about the prophecy, but it is plausible to me that he concealed from Harry the reason of his familiarity with future and past events (timetravel, anyone?) I do not believe for one second that Dumbledore deliberately palnned "to open Harry's mind further to Voldemort" As you correctly stated earlier , Dumbledore did not act confidently at all at MOM, when Harry was possesed by Voldie. Dumbledore was clearly scared for Harry's life. Of course "it was dangerous to open Harry's mind further", but his mind was already opened to Voldemort. Connection between them existed during harry's life without any additional help from Dumbledore. OK, I am drifting OT. I wanted to address your "weak characterisation" point. I disagree. I think her characterisation is quite good, not flawless, mind you and some characters are not developed at all, but quite good. Of course, she does not have time to go into deep psychological exploration of the characters (this is fanfic job. :)), but even sketches of main characters are quite good. We DO KNOW what makes Ron and Hermione tick. They are full of insecurities. They are both afraid of failure. Ron feels overshadowed by his brothers, Ron is a loyal friend, Ron sometimes feels gealous of Harry. Do I want them both to be painted with more detail? Of course, but even what I have I consider to be quite good. I am also trying to figure out where characterisation drives the plot and cannot come up with one so far. help me out, please? Even in PoA, where Lupin does not tell Dumbledore about them being an animagi, even though it is a plot-driven point, it ifts quite nicely with Lupin personality . He does not want Dumbledore to stop liking him. Alla From alina at distantplace.net Sun Jul 11 21:49:34 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 17:49:34 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Gnomes References: Message-ID: <018001c46790$f56f9a60$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 105668 > This may sound really, really stupid, but what good are gnomes? > Could they be used in the wizard world somehow, other than to tear > up your garden? When Harry and Ron de-gnome the garden, they > yell, "Geroff me! Geroff me!" Are they self-aware? It sounds like > they have a simple vocabulary, too. > > I'm not about to throw out a totally ridiculous theory (even though > I think of some), but I am just wondering if anyone else has ideas > about what else they might do or be useful for. > > Alora :) Erm, why would they have to be useful? There's no law that says every existing magical creature has to be of some use to Wizards, but it sounds like something Umbridge would believe. You wouldn't go around wondering why in the world do we have squirrels since they're not useful to us humans, would you? It sounds to me like gnomes are treated more as smart animals than intelligent beings by wizards. They're probably the wizarding equivalent of racoons, moles and other pesky garden pests. Alina. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 22:28:38 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 22:28:38 -0000 Subject: A theory, just for the fun of it Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105669 Well, it's been another full day, defending Snape, even though I am not a Snape fan. It's time to go to bed, but I'd like to end that day with a more humourous note. So let's see. Snape was the hero of the day. So, Snape... Snape's twins... Twins... Brothers... Albus and Aberforth... Time travel... Of course ! After the end of the VWII, when Harry has vanquished LV, and DD has died of exhaustion, Snape is left all alone in a world where the Boy He Hates is a hero, and the Only One Who Ever Believed In Snape is dead. That's probably why McGonagall finds him one day standing knee-deep in the Hogwarts' lake, with a suspicious-looking potion in his hand. She hands him a big sealed envelope. "I have been going through Albus's possessions. I found this, with your name on it." Snape hesitates, throws a mournful look at his hissing and fuming potion, and finally takes the package. Back into his office, he unseals the envelope and upturns it on his desk. A strange wooden device, no bigger than the hand and covered in knobs of several different metals, falls with a thud, followed by two pieces of parchment. Snape picks one up, and starts to read. Almost immediately, he turns deathly pale. He looks wildly around him, and spots an old flagon. "Accio Firewhisky !" He drinks the whole flagon in one go, and rolls under the table. Two weeks after that, Snape disappears. No trace of him is ever found anywhere. So where did he go ? Back in the past of course, thanks to the little device, whose use was explained in the second piece of parchment. And what was in the first one ? DD's genealogical tree, with the name of his father crossed out, and 2 words in DD's handwriting next to it : "Severus Snape". Del, who should really go to bed, she *needs* it obviously LOL From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Sun Jul 11 22:47:35 2004 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 22:47:35 -0000 Subject: Erised thoughts (long) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105670 I was thinking a bit more about the Mirror of Erised and how it might work, in particular how it could have been used to provide the stone to Harry, but not to Quirrell (or Voldemort). I had something of a brainwave overnight, so here it is. My thought was essentially that the Mirror has the power to give you your heart's desire *provided you are 'truthful' about what that is*. What do I mean by this? Well, Dumbledore says something about how people are very bad at wanting things that are good for them. So, imagine Quirrell actually got hie desire, and was able to hand the Stone over to Voldemort. My guess is he'd very rapidly regret doing so, and not only because Voldemort would betray him. The basic idea is that having obtained your heart's desire, it then turns out to be not what you wanted after all. What seemed fulfilling when you didn't have it, turns out not to be when you do. How about if the Mirror's ability is to discern not only what your heart's desire is, but also if you would in fact be satisfied with it if you got it? That you would, in effect, agree that you had received the thing you wanted, and you still want it. And, that being the case, it can grant your desire. Before going on to consider how this worked to protect the Stone, it's worth reconsidering some of Dumbledore's remarks about the mirror in the light of this. "Neither knowledge nor truth". It isn't clear to me what the difference in this context is between knowledge and truth, but I have understood Dumbledore roughly to mean that the mirror doesn't predict the future (knowledge) or give insight (truth). This has always puzzled me, because surely a Mirror of Erised would be a wonderful psychiatric tool. However, if we consider that a common state of the human heart is to be self-deceived, this makes sense. If you *don't* know your heart, the mirror merely plays along with your false ideas about what would make you fulfilled and plays them back at you, so you gain nothing; if you *do* know your heart, then it tells you what you already know. What Dumbledore didn't say at that time was anything about the *power* of the mirror - just it's use in conveying information. Misdirection by omission - a common Dumbledore trait. "A truly happy person would see themselves as they are". The meaning of this would be unchanged. If you have your heart's desire, the mirror need do nothing for you, and shows you the situation as it is. "Only someone who wanted the Stone, not to use it". Here we do need some assumptions to make this work, but IMO they are reasonable. In effect, Dumbledore is relying on the idea that selfish or evil desires are never truly satisfying and do not reflect your true self. There is considerable evidence (which would take too long to go into here, I have posted on it in the past) that Voldemort is not portrayed as 'pure' evil, and that, despite his own claims, he is still human. IOW, even Voldemort's heart would only be satisfied by returning to good. More generally, anyone who just wants to be rich or immortal is not in fact pursuing a path that would be satisfying for them. This fits in with the comment I referred to earlier, about people wanting things that aren't good for them. OK, so how was the Stone protected? We have to consider some of the constraints that Dumbledore is under. - the Stone is not his, he has to protect it in a way that allows him, or Flamel, to get it back. Destroying it, or placing it beyond reach, are not options at this time (shades of Sauron's Ring?). - he has to protect it against very powerful magic: Gringotts was not good enough. - he can assume that Voldemort would work out that the stone is in his keeping, since few wizards would have the foresight to remove it from Gringotts, and he is known to be Flamel's partner. - he has to assume that he may have a traitor on his own staff. Voldemort will naturally try to infiltrate Hogwarts. His later remark to Ginny about 'wiser wizards being hoodwinked' shows that their good will is no guarantee of their reliability. So, he sets up a series of barriers whose function is: - to give some protection to the Mirror. - act as a kind of burglar alarm, because anyone trying for the stome is likely to give themself away, one way or another. - distract attention from the central importance of the Mirror itelf to protecting the Stone. The question is, what did Dumbledore add to the mix, to make the Mirror a protective device? We only see it operate in its function of making the Stone available to the right person. After all, the Mirror normally has no role in *preventing* people from getting their heart's desires if these are not pure in the sense I have described above. It merely doesn't help. The best I can think of is that he somehow connected the Mirror to the Stone, so that its power to grant desires was harnessed in a negative way to prevent them being fulfilled, provided those desires were something to do with the stone. That would make the Mirror act a little like the Fidelius charm. The Stone, regardless of its actual physical location, would only be accessible via the Mirror - hence the need for ancillary protection of the Mirror. There are plenty of weaknesses with this theory. The Mirror was not brought into play, apparently, until some time after Dumbledore took charge of the Stone. Thematically, it doesn't bring in the issue of reversal raised by Iris. It does, however, suggest how the Mirror could more or less do Dumbledore's wishes without him micro-managing what it shows to each person. And it does preserve the idea of Harry having to face up to his true self - though he didn't do badly at the end of PS. David From caesian at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 23:03:06 2004 From: caesian at yahoo.com (caesian) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 23:03:06 -0000 Subject: Hermione, compassion and logic (was Hermione's growth) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105671 Jim Ferer wrote: > HERMIONE LEARNS COMPASSION > > Hermione wasn't the best one to take troubled feelings to, was she? > Anything that didn't fit her "mind over matter" mindset was dismissed. > As late as PoA her "rational" side got the better of her when > Lavender's rabbit was killed, although she cared enough about Lavender > to at least look anxious. I would really like to know the > soul-searching Hermione went through after that. > > Hermione's changed since then. She's smart enough to learn that people > who deny emotions aren't being rational, and she sees suffering and > injustice and is moved by it. By GoF, she is moved enough by Winky's > suffering and the injustice of house-elves that she does something > about it. > > Later, we see Hermione's compassion towards Neville. Hermione is wiser > now, and more sensitive. If a situation like the death of Lavender's > rabbit happened now, she'd handle it differently. Hermione has grown. > heynorty replied: In so much has her vaunted S.P.E.W. campaign, while is displays a certain sense of compassion. I would say it does not display any real empathy for the house elves or their particular situation. I view it has a very top down, almost condescending treatment. She is in essance saying look, you are too stupid to realize that you are slaves. So I shall be the one to free you. In addition, her stunt with the Centuars does not earn her any points with them as well. She just assumed they would help her, even though they tried to kill Harry and her only a day ago. He comment of "I never liked horses" about Firenze is a telling one as well. So yes, while I would say she seems to be a more rounded person. I don't see her really ever changing herself or growing in any meaningful way. I hasten to add, that this might change by book 7 and there will be a whole new light shed on the subject. Caesian replies: I have enjoyed reading this thread from Jim's excellent beginning post. And while I agree that Hermione is a compassionate person (and always has been, even when she was on the path to prig-dom), the ways in which she is able to express her compassion will always be determined by who she is. Her treatment of Neville is an excellent example of Hermione's brand of compassion - smart, rationale and based on the complexity of her understanding of the situation. For example, it is no coincidence that "mimublus mimbletonia" became the new Gryffindor password as soon as Hermione was named a prefect. On the other hand, when she doesn't fully understand a situation, for example with the house elves, she continues to base her compassion on logical reasoning, even when it's obvious she's working from incorrect assumptions. Why can't she self-correct? Because she can't understand, logically, why she's wrong. If it's not reasonable, she doesn't handle it very well. It's no surprise that Hermione can't stand Luna Lovegood. But, it's also no surprise that after the Death of Sirius, at the end of Order of the Pheonix, Hermione can't help Harry with the core of what he's dealing with. She just looks at him anxiously, and probably arranges things in the periphery of his situation, letting him be, shushing Ron, etc. Luna, by contrast, helps Harry by getting at what he's really dealing with. Why is Luna so much more adequate in this situation than Hermione? Precisely because she isn't driven by the rational. Luna is able to help Harry - with his sadness, loss and those things not based on logic or reasoning - because she understands those things better than Hermione does, and she can understand Harry's irrational pain. (Just to be clear, I'm saying you can't talk someone out of grief, not that to be grieved by the death of a loved on is not perfectly reasonable - it's just not a situation based on, or dealt with adequately by, logic.) Hermione has been less and less able to follow where Harry is going - through loss and emotional turmoil. In OotP, Hermione could only appeal to Harry's rationale side. She told him over and over to be reasonable, and to be calm. I liked that, and I did want him to stop freaking out (I am myself very much like Hermione). She did it with dignity and she avoided the rational person's pitfall of overwhelming frustration. She's all action and planning. She sees problems, and reasons a smart solution (such as with the article in the Quibbler). I'm not saying she's Dr. Spock. Her emotions can get the better of her -e.g. her behavior during her vendetta against Rita Skeeter in GoF. Her defense of Hagrid is fierce and not always rational. And, most glaring, she's loyal to the point of following Harry to the MoM despite her belief that going is not reasonable. She acts on emotion, she has emotions, and she values them to the point of making things like loyalty and friendship high rational priorities. She just doesn't understand emotional motivations very well - and she tends to do everything from a rational, planned framework when she's not flustered or panicked. I think Hermione's role in the trio is essential, but she is not a mirror or foil for any other character. She's not there to complement anyone else, or to be a perfect embodiement of some principle. Her role is changing as much because of circumstance as through her own growth. I sense too that a change is coming in our ability to rely on Hermione's point of view as the situation becomes more and more complicated. Early in the series, Hermione's interpretation is almost always correct. Now, things are getting harder to reason out, more knowledge is required than she possibly can have, but she's still reasoning based on the partial information she has. It's great, I love it. But, I sense that her reasons and explanations are more and more serving as good cover. More often, she's leading us away from realizing the truth, because her explanations sound so good, and she's so often been right in the past. Her comments, when the trio process new information, are often diversions that obscure. To give an example, when Harry recounts Barty Crouch Sr.'s comments in the Forest, about his son, how it was "all my fault". And Hermione snaps, "Well, that was his fault". She obscures the meaning, by focusing the reader's attention on the wrong interpretation. Many facts in the last 2 books have been filtered through Hermione's reasoning, and some of the trio's conclusions are certainly wrongheaded as a result. Caesian From strawberry at jamm.com Sun Jul 11 23:25:29 2004 From: strawberry at jamm.com (Jenni A.M. Merrifield) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 23:25:29 -0000 Subject: Trewlawney is her grandmother?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105672 Becki hopes to clairify; > > Sybil Trelawney is the great-great-grandaughter of the celebrated > seer, Cassandra Trelawney, (pg314 am) as told to Unbridge. I > thought it was obvious that Sybil was "channeling" the prophecy > from Cassandra, both times, since #1, it was not her voice, #2 she > doesn't have any recolection of the experience and actually flat > out denies to to Harry, and #3, doesn't seem to have any other > real seer powers. > Maybe I was wrong to assume this theory? Ooo. Perhaps you were wrong to *assume* it, but I like it as a theory nonetheless. I can see that the soul of a great seer might find herself inclined to "posess" her great-great-granddaughter in order to pass along a prophecy of great import to a time that occurs significantly after her own. As for the voice being deep and raspy, I wouldn't think that was caused by anything other than the fact of one entity forcing vocalization through another entitiy's vocal chords. Jenni From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Sun Jul 11 21:07:13 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:07:13 -0000 Subject: The 'Power' of Hermione's wand-movie foreshadow? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105673 We know that JKR said that there were aspects to the PoA film that foreshadowed the next two books. One 'event' that happened in the film but not in the book was in the Shrieking Shack. Harry used Hermione's wand to knock Snape out whereas in the book HR and H used 'expelliarmus' to knock him out. Anasazi and others wondered if this meant there was something special about Hermione's wand. If this is true then it means that Snape's wand is just as special. . . I am just re-reading CoS and have just read The Duelling Club Ch11. In this chapter Lockhart and his assistant, Snape, were to show the children how to duel. Uk version P142, . . ."Snape cried, "Expelliarmus!" There was a dazzling flash of scarlet light and Lockhart was blasted off his feet: he flew backwards off the stage, smashed into the wall and slid down it to sprawl on the floor." So it is possible that just one person's 'expelliarmus' could knock someone flying. It's curious though, that when the children used it they just disarmed their opponent. Maybe the power of this spell does grow with age, or maybe because Snape was so angry (as was Harry in the Shrieking Shack) it enhanced the spell. I realise that this thread had died a death but thought I'd renew it as I'd come across this quote. ( I love the idea of Snape being Lockhart's assistant - could you imagine what was going through Snape's mind!!! Murderous thoughts no doubt!!! ;o) Aggie who is a Snape-aholic and Siriusphile to the extreme!! From kandbmom at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 21:26:54 2004 From: kandbmom at yahoo.com (kandbmom) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:26:54 -0000 Subject: Ron's "Fake" Predictions (Re: "childproofing" wands, and Neville in GoF) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105674 Lene' wrote: > One other thing sprang to mind this afternoon as I read GoF. Did > FakeMoody use Imperio or some other nefarious bit of business on > Neville when he invited him in for tea after upsetting him during > class by showing the Cruciatus curse on the spider?<...snip...> I never even thought about that incident. What seems interesting to me as I think of this is that Crouch jr. was brought in with the LeStranges and they were the ones who did the Cruciatus curse on Neville's parents in the first place. Was Crouch Jr. there? I wonder what happened in that room besides the tea and him giving him the book to help Harry on the 2nd task? Good thoughts by the way! kandbmom From hallisallimalli at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 21:34:45 2004 From: hallisallimalli at yahoo.com (halli) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:34:45 -0000 Subject: Thestrals Seen by 4th Years (was Re: Boggart/ Patronus Musings - Quote Lupin) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105675 Ginger: > As for Luna and the Thestrals, I think the answer may lie in the > fact that Luna has been able to see them since she got there. Either > she knew before she got there (perhaps Dad prepared her?) or she > asked once she got there and found that she was the only one, or one > of only a few, of her peers who could see them. For all we know, she > may have told Ginny about them. Halli: Well that would make sense, except that when Ginny and Luna talk about them, they normally say "Hagrid says" so I'm pretty sure he taught them about them. Maybe he taught that year because of Luna and they all thought she was crazy(er than usual) because she could see them...I'm not that great at guessing like this. oh well Halli From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 00:38:59 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 00:38:59 -0000 Subject: Who's the third dead death eater??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105676 > Jen: Answering my own posts too, Neri! But I just remembered Travers > in GOF, who helped murder the McKinnons; the one Karkaroff tried to > finger but was too late. The aurors caught him, but he wasn't > mentioned in the DOM. He must have died in Azkaban. Neri: Yes, Travers looks like the right answer. Only we don't know for sure he died in Azkaban, or anywhere else. If he suddenly surfaces in HBP we'll have to start looking for the missing dead DE again. After Pettigrew and Crouch Jr I won't trust a DE to stay dead. I liked your previous idea about Florence being the dead DE. However, if it's really Travers, it means Florence might still be around, and I like this possibility even better. Neri From kandbmom at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 21:36:08 2004 From: kandbmom at yahoo.com (kandbmom) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:36:08 -0000 Subject: ...HRH friendship - SS/PS the obstacle course was meant for HRH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105677 Vivian wrote: > DD created this obstacle course for the children. Is he training > them for an as yet mentioned future role? > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/102438 <...snip...> Hello, I am new but wanted to comment on this. I think DD is trying to train them or at least Harry. He knew the prophecy from the beginning. He knew that Harry would have to be the one to kill LV or he wouldn't be stopped. Maybe all along he was hoping that one of these less harmful meetings would have been the one to kill LV and not something really bad. Now we know that it isn't going to be that easy. kandbmom From cruthw at earthlink.net Sun Jul 11 21:41:45 2004 From: cruthw at earthlink.net (caspenzoe) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:41:45 -0000 Subject: HBP & the Weasleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105678 Leah wrote: > Reading this, I couldn't help thinking of LOTR, where while Frodo > is off destroying the ring, there's a major subplot going on whereby > Strider is revealed as Aragorn and becomes the rightful king of > Gondor. However, I wonder if book 5 is a bit late to start > introducing this idea, and whether, other than the Weasley's fairy > tale like poverty and number of children, we have had any hints? Good point Leah (actually I wrote the words you quoted - no matter). I expect that the Half Blood Prince - whom/what-ever he/it is - is something of a subplot as are all of the other things/people - with the possible exception of the Order of the Phoenix - proper - that the titles of the various books refer to. I've been re-reading OOTP the last few days and have found additional references to Ron's potential royalty however: he is repeatedly called "weasle king" by Malfoy for instance. Still, even if he is in fact some kind of royalty - an heir of Gryffindor and counterpart to Slytherin's heir of COS, this would hardly make him a one and only supreme Wizard King in today's WW (despite my overly enthusiastic ravings of the past few days) would it? In any case, one wonders why the WW would need or want to revert to any more than symbolic monarcy in any case, since it's clearly not (in it's British form) a monarchy now. Perhaps, however, this does mitigate toward such a lineage forming a basis for plot progress in one book, if not seven? As futher speculation for potential but postponed COS significance of such a back story, we're given only a sketchy history of the Sytherin vs. Gryffindor/Ravenclaw/Hufflepuff feud that ultimately led to Salazar's deserting the school. Seems like there must be more to it: perhaps Salazar's obsession with pure-bloodedness was in compensation for some perceived inferiorty of his own (aren't all discriminatory policies rooted in a sense of shame and inferiority?); maybe Godric while lacking Salazar's enormous ambition and lust for power, was in fact "noble" in the sense of both heredity and character, or at least moreso than was Salazar? As such a man, Godric would not, in the least, be threatened by those of mixed blood, but Salazar would certainly be constantly irritated by the injustice of it all, no? Why,afteral should nobility or possibly great nobility come gratis to Godric and elude Salazar despite his qualifications and strivings? Moreover, wouldn't such a situation naturally incline Salazar to vent his frustration by making an issue of blodd for those even less hereditarily qualified than he? Specific speculations asside, COS is focused, among other things upon the WW equivalent of racism. The heredity issue and it's effect, if any, upon character, and self - while inherently part of the racism theme - are, in fact, I believe, more central to the series in general ("who am I really and what determines who I am?" - this is the first thematic question JKR raises in the books -SS, p. - darn - can't find my copy at the moment - just read it a few days ago - will post it soon as I find it). Nevertheless, they (the identity issues) are really only raised peripherally in COS by Harry's curiosity as to whethere he really could be related to Salazar Slytherin somehow and why he was ultimately sorted into the Gryffindor house. The latter question is answered definitively by Dumbledor in COS to the effect that ultimately race, heredity, etc. are irrelevant to the genuine self. Does Harry really understand whom and why he is yet? Do any of us? If I were JKR, and wanted to return to this theme (and I think she does - I'm going to go back over the series thematically in attempt to test this theory more closely - soon as I'm through with my OOTP review), I think revisiting it from another point of view (Ron's and the Weasley family's) would be an interesting and excellent way to do so. Just some thoughts. Casey From kandbmom at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 21:44:51 2004 From: kandbmom at yahoo.com (kandbmom) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:44:51 -0000 Subject: Who's the third dead death eater? / 'One who's left me forever...' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105679 Neri: > > Checking something in the graveyard scene (GoF, Ch. 33) I just > > came across something I've missed before: The largest gap in the > > DEs circle includes 3 empty places, where LV says should have > > stood three DEs who are "dead in my service". OK, I know two of > > the DEs he means: Rosier and Wilkes. But who's the third? Am I > > missing someone obvious? He can't be meaning Regulus Black, right? > > An unaccounted DE is a very suspicious thing, even (or especially) > > if he's supposed to be dead. kandbmom: This whole chapter leaves me with unanswered questions. I am also considering the idea that Snape could have been the man standing next to the space that separated Lucius and "the next man". I have a feeling Snape is "the next man" We know he had the mark and he surely felt it burn and turn black. Why did he wait to show DD why not go to him then and then DD would know something was wrong before Harry came out of the maze. So, my question is, who is the "One, who I believe has left me forever..." I am leaning toward Fudge? He sure seems fishy!! From rebekia_krum at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 11 21:57:01 2004 From: rebekia_krum at yahoo.co.uk (rebekia_krum) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:57:01 -0000 Subject: Leaky Cauldrons Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105680 The Leaky Cauldron- pub on Charing Cross Rd The Leaky Cauldron Report -So important to Mr. Percy Weasley The Leaky Cauldrons -Perhaps the ones Mungdungus sells.... The Leaky Cauldron - Nevilles caldrons seem to sprout leaks a lot in Snapes lessons? The Leaky Cauldron - perhaps the one Voldemort stood in on a fatefull rebirthing night? He's back....or is He? "Let it have drowned, Harry thought, let it have gone wrong....." (557, Bloomsbury) Has anyone else wondered why there's so many references to shotty cauldrons? Rebekia From dontask2much at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 21:59:25 2004 From: dontask2much at yahoo.com (charme) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 17:59:25 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Gnomes References: Message-ID: <03bf01c46792$562be560$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> No: HPFGUIDX 105681 alora: "This may sound really, really stupid, but what good are gnomes? Could they be used in the wizard world somehow, other than to tear up your garden? When Harry and Ron de-gnome the garden, they yell, "Geroff me! Geroff me!" Are they self-aware? It sounds like they have a simple vocabulary, too. charme: It appears from the Harry Potter Lexicon site, gnomes are a sign of a Wizard household :). In fantasy, gnomes are kin to dwarves ( but smaller as they proudly maintain) and are also less rotund then dwarves. Their noses, however, are significantly larger and most gnomes have dark tan or brown skin and white hair. A typical gnome lives for 600 years; not bad for a little guy, hmm? Supposedly, they have a lively and sly senses of humor, especially for practical jokes. They have a great love of living things and finely wrought items, particularly gems and jewelry. Gnomes love all sorts of precious stones and are masters of gem polishing and cutting, which might be what they are useful for? Not sure if this explanation applies to JK Rowling's interpretation or not... Hope this helps :) charme From strawberry at jamm.com Mon Jul 12 00:57:26 2004 From: strawberry at jamm.com (Jenni A. Merrifield) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 17:57:26 -0700 Subject: The sorting hat seems to think Harry is a pure-blooded wizard. Message-ID: <75EB2407D134C942A9AA6518C4B853A2024426@zeus.rsmnetworks.net> No: HPFGUIDX 105682 I'm sitting here watching the ABC Family showing of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone movie and it suddenly occurred to me that the sorting hat does seriously consider putting Harry into Slytherin. We also know, from the Sorting Hat's New Song in OoP, that Slytherin house only takes pure-blooded wizards. Putting two and two together I come out with Harry being considered a pure-blood wizard, suggesting that the mere fact that Lily was in fact a trained wizard nullifies the fact that she, herself, was muggle-born. For reference, here are relevant quotes from out of the "Sorting Hat's New Song" (p205, US edition): ------ Said Slytherin, "We'll teach just those Whose ancestry is purest." ... These differences caused little strife When first they came to light, For each of the four founders had A House in which they might Take only those they wanted, so, For instance, Slytherin Took only pure-blood wizards Of great cunning, just like him, ------ Jenni -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield Software User Experience Professional Designing to Requirements and walking on Water is EASY. . . . . . So long as both are Frozen. ---------- E-Mail & WinIM: [strawberry @ jamm.com] Blog: [http://strawberryjamm.blogspot.com] -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mayeaux45 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 22:00:53 2004 From: mayeaux45 at yahoo.com (mayeaux45) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 22:00:53 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105683 > Mayeaux45: > > Hermione is known for accepting people as they are (Ron and > > Harry included), even though she might have a great dislike > > for them. I don't think she would go through the "trouble" > > of trying to get Ron to change( or even Harry for that matter). > Del replies : > Except that she does. She offered the boys *homework planners* for > Christmas, how much more loudly could she have stated that she > expected them to change ? > Moreover, it's very common for people in love to consciously accept > their loved one in their entirety, but to reject some parts of > their personality unconsciously. Mayeaux45: Once again, only when it comes to academics is Hermione aggressive in her attempts to *help* the boys, not *change* them. And are you referring to Ron being in love with Hermione or vice versa. Because even some die hard R/Hr shippers say that the love seems to be *one-sided* (mostly on Ron's part). > Del replies : > My gut reaction was instantaneous and without thought too. I > reacted right along with Hermione, so that when she said it, I > was thinking it. It's just like hearing 2 people talking next to > you while you're reading a book, and then they start talking about > somenone but they can't remember their name, and you just give it > to them without even looking up. It's automatic : no Harry, you're > not a bad kisser, nobody is, and Cho cries all the time anyway. I > understand that Hermione wouldn't mention the "nobody is a bad > kisser" part in front of Ron though :-) Mayeaux45: That may be the case, but let's face it...this scene in OotP is *somewhat* important to figuring out the dynamic in R/Hr/H relationship. It could go either way and unfortunately for us, we won't know for sure until books 6&7 come out! But someone did make an interesting point on a post a couple of weeks ago. JKR did say in response to the question 'Who does Hermione love...Ron or Harry?' JKR responded "I can't believe you all haven't *worked this one out* yet. But I'm not going to tell you because that would spoil the arguments, which I enjoy!" (not sure if the quote is exact but I'm 99.8% sure that it is). JKR says *worked out*...just for the sake of argument :) I'm just going to say "if Hermione and Ron's relationship is so obvious to some people then why would there be anything to *work out* at all!" JKR is a literary GENIUS IMO and she uses her words carefully when answering fans questions...she didn't say 'figure', or even 'obvious' she said 'worked out'. Basically what I'm trying to say is that it's a *toss up* at this point with the who loves who scenario. Right as of Book 5 Harry is the ONLY one in the trio that JKR hasn't written as having any clue or feelings of any kind having to do with anyone. Cho was pretty much a no-go as soon as she started talking badly about Hermione when her and Harry were talking in the hallway. > Del replies : > You forgot that she has to go to the loos, which is the only other > place, apart from meal times, that Hermione mentions. She does > complete her sentence with "all over the place", but that could be > either an exageration, or just something she heard Cho's friends > whisper among themselves while Cho was crying in the loos. Mayeaux45: Good point. No argument there... From dontask2much at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 22:09:12 2004 From: dontask2much at yahoo.com (charme) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 18:09:12 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books References: Message-ID: <03db01c46793$b2e3bf20$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> No: HPFGUIDX 105684 dumbledore11214: >Having said all that, I believe that Dumbledore indeed told Harry everything about the prophecy, but it is plausible to me that he concealed from Harry the reason of his familiarity with future and past events (timetravel, anyone?)< In OoP, (pg 784), there are (I think) 2 other prophecies which are released. One is old man speaking ( "...at the Solstic will come a new...", the other a young woman (" ....and none will come after...." Why would these 2 be referenced in the books as well? (I don't have an answer for this, but sometimes Mz Rowling slips seemingly innocuous events past us that get referenced later on.) charme From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sun Jul 11 22:20:38 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 18:20:38 -0400 Subject: Sorting (was : James the Berk?) Message-ID: <001401c46795$4c71f020$5fc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 105685 Del said: " In the books, it's pretty clear that nobody knows that the Hat recommended Slytherin to Harry (the events in CoS would have been even worse for Harry if the other students had known that), and it took 5 years for Harry and Ron to find out that the Hat had hesitated between Ravenclaw and Gryffindor for Hermione : obviously, they didn't hear that. What a student and the Hat tell each other is strictly private, so even if the Hat hesitated for Snape, nobody can know that." Cathy: And Snape now knows that the Sorting Hat considered Harry for Slytherin as that memory passed through Harry's mind during Occlumency lessons. If Snape noticed, and if he cares. But, as far as I can tell, Harry has yet to mention it to anyone else. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aboutthe1910s at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 23:30:58 2004 From: aboutthe1910s at yahoo.com (aboutthe1910s) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 23:30:58 -0000 Subject: Erised thoughts (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105686 The problem with this is that now you have to explain how Harry was deceiving himself about wanting his parents to be with him when he first found the mirror, because I don't think he was, or that this desire was one that, if granted, wouldn't end up being good for him. a From xtremesk8ergurl2 at aol.com Mon Jul 12 00:51:29 2004 From: xtremesk8ergurl2 at aol.com (xtremesk8ergurl2 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 20:51:29 EDT Subject: Sorting Hat Message-ID: <155.3958951b.2e233a91@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105687 One question I have, is even though Harry didn't want to be in Slytherin, I remember DD saying at one point(in CoS) that he definitely should have been in Gryfindor. I can understand why the sorting hat would think of Slytherin with the scar and all, but do any of you think that the hat would of changed its mind after a few minutes? Another question I have, is if Slytherin and its house is all dark magic, then why do they have a Slytherin house? -xtremesk8ergurl From drliss at comcast.net Mon Jul 12 00:36:17 2004 From: drliss at comcast.net (Lissa Hess) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 20:36:17 -0400 Subject: Re PoA Question (foreshadowing books 6 & 7) In-Reply-To: <1089582348.68735.3566.m7@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20040711201441.021fa238@mail.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 105688 Okay, this SEEMS like it should belong on another list, but it doesn't. Really. Ever since I read OotP, I've wondered about the relationship between Sirius and Lupin. I don't normally read too much into these things, but I really thought Sirius and Lupin read like a couple. (Keep reading....) I'm sure the reasons I actually think Sirius and Lupin had something going have been gone over and over, because I know this is not an idea that I alone am harboring, and there's definitely a nice quote there to foreshadow it: Professor Lupin: Sirius, be quiet... Sirius Black: Go bite yourself, Remus! Professor Snape: Listen to you two, quarrelling like an old married couple. Why do I think it's important? On the one hand, it almost seems like JKR may be tossing out little clues to amuse the slashers out there. She may never mention yea or nea, because it may not affect the plot. On the other hand... (pure speculation to follow...) It seems like Harry is slowly losing every adult that's close to him. His parents? Gone. Sirius? Gone. Hagrid? Away a lot for the Order, and wrapped up with Madame Maxime. Dumbledore? Removed himself because of the connection with LV. Molly Weasley? Driving Harry away from her with her overprotectiveness. Moody? The Moody Harry was close to was taken away from him. Bit by bit, every adult Harry loves is being pushed away from him. Following the pattern, I suspect Lupin is going to be forced away from Harry, by Harry's choice. (I refuse to think about Peter Pettigrew's silver hand, because I adore Lupin and really don't want him to die!) Anyway, I think Sirius is going to be the key. I don't think that Harry has comprehended how deep Lupin's grief over Sirius really runs, and if he were to find out that Lupin had a romantic relationship with Sirius, I think that he'd be incredibly deeply hurt. Not only with possibly being squicked, but that neither of them ever considered him important enough to tell this to. It's possible, and I wouldn't really put it past her. I also wouldn't think anything of the line in the movie (beyond a serious giggle), but since JKR has pointed out there are a few things that might foreshadow Books 6 and 7, I raise my eyebrows at that one. I know it's certainly as unlikely as it is likely, but that was the first thing my mind jumped to when she mentioned unintentional foreshawowing. Lissa From garybec101 at comcast.net Mon Jul 12 01:16:56 2004 From: garybec101 at comcast.net (garybec) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 01:16:56 -0000 Subject: The sorting hat seems to think Harry is a pure-blooded wizard. In-Reply-To: <75EB2407D134C942A9AA6518C4B853A2024426@zeus.rsmnetworks.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105689 Jenni > I'm sitting here watching the ABC Family showing of Harry Potter and the > Sorcerer's Stone movie and it suddenly occurred to me that the sorting hat > does seriously consider putting Harry into Slytherin. We also know, from the > Sorting Hat's New Song in OoP, that Slytherin house only takes pure-blooded > wizards. Putting two and two together I come out with Harry being considered > a pure-blood wizard, suggesting that the mere fact that Lily was in fact a > trained wizard nullifies the fact that she, herself, was muggle- born. > > For reference, here are relevant quotes from out of the "Sorting Hat's New > Song" (p205, US edition): > > ------ > Said Slytherin, "We'll teach just those > Whose ancestry is purest." > ... > These differences caused little strife > When first they came to light, > For each of the four founders had > A House in which they might > Take only those they wanted, so, > For instance, Slytherin > Took only pure-blood wizards > Of great cunning, just like him, > ------ > > Jenni Becki's says; I am watching the movie too, I just love the extra scenes. Be that as it may, the reference to the sorting hat considering putting Harry into Slytherin was only after Harry told it not to. If Harry had never mentioned it, would have the sorting hat? Possibly the sorting hat has a sense of humor and was just messing with him? Another point to your other point of the poem is that Tom Riddle was most deffinatly a half-blood and not only was he in Slytherin, he was the heir... Possibly Slytherin had no choice if he was the only one left? Haven't figured that one out yet, quite a bit of contradictions going around on that one. Enjoy the movie! Becki From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Mon Jul 12 01:26:37 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 01:26:37 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105690 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > Del replies : > I don't care. To me, humiliation is mean and bad, period. Just because > other people do worse or because the victim doesn't *seem* to care > doesn't make the facts more acceptable. James *was* denying Snape his > dignity as a human being, that is all I'm concerned about. > If it comes to that, Lily doesn't fall apart or start to cry when Snape uses the "mudblood" epithet, but I haven't yet heard someone say that his insult isn't really all that bad, since she doesn't seem to be much damaged by it. Similarly with James's tormenting of Snape - if Snape were able to shrug it off, it would be a point in HIS favour for being strong enough, but it would not let James off the hook. His behaviour is bad because he means it to be bad. Wanda From jferer at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 01:32:31 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 01:32:31 -0000 Subject: Hermione, compassion and logic (was Hermione's growth) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105691 Heynorty:"So yes, while I would say she seems to be a more rounded person. I don't see her really ever changing herself or growing in any meaningful way." Don't sell Hermione short. Your examples ? S.P.E.W., the centaurs ? tell us that her growth is not complete. Given that she's fifteen, I can forgive her these imperfections. But I agree, although in my opinion she's grown a lot, she is and will remain Hermione. Caesian: "And while I agree that Hermione is a compassionate person (and always has been, even when she was on the path to prig-dom), the ways in which she is able to express her compassion will always be determined by who she is. Her treatment of Neville is an excellent example of Hermione's brand of compassion ? smart, rationale and based on the complexity of her understanding of the situation." Well, the seeds of compassion were there, anyway. They only needed some of the space her intellect was hogging, that's all. We all do, and should, use the tools we have when we're building something new. Hermione's got a lot of intellect, and she uses it to help Harry and then Neville. In the same vein of playing to her strengths, Luna uses her intuition and spirituality for Harry's sake. A symphony with only one kind of instrument would be rather dull. All have their place. I don't believe that Hermione "can't stand" Luna Lovegood. Hermione doesn't understand Luna, but she tolerates her, and will tolerate her more. Eventually, I think and hope, they will accept each other, eccentricities and all. Your words about Luna are brilliant, IMO. She does have a quality that helps Harry ? a natural spirituality ? a natural acceptance ? a serenity ? that was just what Harry needed. It is a wise person that can just be there for someone in grief, instead of trying to fix things. That comes naturally to Luna. Caesian: "Her [Hermione's] role is changing as much because of circumstance as through her own growth. I sense too that a change is coming in our ability to rely on Hermione's point of view as the situation becomes more and more complicated. Early in the series, Hermione's interpretation is almost always correct. Now, things are getting harder to reason out, more knowledge is required than she possibly can have, but she's still reasoning based on the partial information she has." Ah, the fog of war. I wish I always had full information when I had to make a decision, but few of us get that luxury. You're right. Hermione's role is changing. Now she is taking smart, independent action instead of figuring things out all the time. The Quibbler article is one example; the DA is another. She's still right much of the time, don't forget. She was right about Harry's Rickie Rescue complex, and rightly smelled a rat. Thinking on her feet got them all out of a serious jam with Dolores. (That's another relatively new accomplishment. She thinks on her feet better than she used to.) Another thing to remember when we consider Hermione's hits and misses: Babe Ruth's lifetime batting average was .342. That means his "mistake" average was .658. I say she hits enough of the time that she could be on my team any day. Who will we get any better? Jim Ferer From sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 01:40:47 2004 From: sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com (sevenhundredandthirteen) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 01:40:47 -0000 Subject: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105692 Dzeytoun wrote: >JKR sometimes commits the cardinal sin of writing, she lots plot >dictate character instead of the other way around. A lot of the >seeming inconsistencies and flaws really ARE inconstistencies and >flaws. >She just isn't very good at explaining >what makes people tick. Look at the trio. After five books we STILL >don't really know much about what kind of people Ron and Hermione >really are, and why they make the decisions they do. I (Laurasia) reply: Yes and no. I agree with what you've said sometimes, and not in others. I think Dumbledore is especially inconsistent. But I think we do understand things about Hermione, especially. And I do think characters drive the plot in some instances. The problem I have with the inconsistency of plot driving characters, rather than characters driving plot is that a lot of that is critical of the things characters _don't_ do, rather than what they _do_ do. People are always acting dumber than we think they are when they are inconsistent. All these things are inconsistent with characterisation, but all rely on people not doing things, rather than actually doing things: Dumbledore _doesn't_ intervene with Snape's bullying of Harry. Dumbledore _doesn't_ recognise Imposter!Moody until the end of the year even though he's allegedly an old friend. Voldemort _doesn't_ attempt to whisk Harry away to use his blood in his rebirth until the end of the year. Nobody remembers that Lupin shouldn't walk into the moonlight. Dumbledore _isn't_ at Hogwarts for an extended period of time at the end of PS for so good reason (He can't apparate from the village? Must literally _fly_ yo London?). Hermione _doesn't_ tell Harry she knows it's a basilisk, but rushes of to get petrified. Dumbledore _doesn't_ recognise a basilisk victim when he sees one, even though he's allegedly the most powerful wizard of the age. In fact, he can't even bring up a top 5 of monsters that can petrify people, realise that only one of them is a serpent, and then join the dots that Slytherin was a snake enthusiasts, AND a parselmouth Death Eaters _don't_ cast Avada Kedavra's in battle all the time, opting for tap dancing curses and drunkenness instead. They are arguably all things that needed to happen for narrative and structural reasons. We need Harry to have a nemesis, and it works better for continuity if they are the same person in all books. We need all the important things to happen at the _end_ of the school year for structurally climactic reasons. We need Harry to face his fights ultimately alone, so everyone else is conveniently taken out of action. We need Harry to figure the stuff out himself so he appears the hero. These are all things that have nothing to do with the sequence of events or character relationships. JKR just decided somewhere along the line that each book would tell the story of one complete year of Harry's schooling. The books wouldn't be any less compelling if the plot of Goblet of Fire took place over one month instead of 10. That's why most of these `plot device' are inconsequential, IMO. JKR has _never_ set herself up as an evil author who will change the rules at any given moment. We _know_ Harry can't die before book 7. BUT, take Lord of the Rings- Tolkein left book 2 of a trilogy with Frodo dead, and Sam taking the burden of the ring and continuing on. Tolkein was setting himself up as an evil author who could kill the main character if he wanted to, so readers were scared that all of their beloved characters could die at any moment. JKR uses school years- we _know_ book 7 will take place in Harry's Seventh Year at Hogwarts, and that he will pass every year before that. We _know_ that the final climax will take place in June sometime. JKR has never scared us that she might do otherwise, so we just accept that things will never be resolved until the end. Also, when inconsistencies are based on inaction, there is always the question- but how much do they actually know? How aware is Dumbledore of Snape's actions towards Harry? We can't be sure. It's one thing to say `A kind man like Dumbledore would never let a cruel man like Snape teach' but how are we to know how aware Dumbledore is of the abuse going on in his classes? When his inconsistency is _not_ acting, there is always the defence- but maybe he doesn't know. That's why a lot of inconsistency can be easily explained away. It's the same with a lot of other inconsistencies- Voldemort characterised as a power hungry megalomaniac, yet he's happy to sit in a gusty house whilst not in human form, completely dependant on an incompetent fool who could desert him at any moment and just do nothing! Unlikely! It goes against his character to wait, but, because the inconsistency is lack of action, there are a million easy reason why it was necessary- he wasn't strong enough yet- it really was the fastest they could do it. Even though Lupin has struggled with his lycanthropy for his life and is really conscious of it, feeling guilty all year, _telling_ everyone his whole story . But then he forgets. In fact, everyone forgets. Even Ron who is truly alarmed to know he's a werewolf and is afraid of him, even Hermione who knowledge about almost everything, even though they are lugging Snape along who came for the reason- Lupin forgot his potion . _NO ONE_ remembers. Nobody. It's character inconsistency . BUT, there was so much excitement going on, that nobody really blames them. When your pet rat just transformed into a long dead wizard and confessed to killing two people to Voldemort, and no, that psychopathic murderer is actually innocent, OF COURSE it's easy to see how who is the werewolf is driven from everyone's minds. Why do the Death Eaters cast drunkenness spells one second, but AK people whenever they miss. It sounds fishy. Very fishy. Plot device right? Even though the Death Eaters are sadistic and cruel and under strict orders, there are still tap dancing spells being hurtled though the air? Inconsistency of character, used to stop anyone dying. Maybe to explain this one away we say it takes real power and focus to cast an AK, so in battle Death Eaters cast one every few minutes, and then have to recharge. AKs are too draining or, they are harder to aim. All easy reasons to explain why the DA only got hit with inconsequential spells. Snape has every right to act the way he does- his bullying and general nastiness is perfectly in character for a grudge-bearing man who was abused as a child. Whereas, Dumbledore yes, he does act inconsistently. After all, is he is a kind powerful headmaster, why does he let a nasty bullying teacher bully his kids. Surely, Dumbledore should stop it the second he discovers it. Either he doesn't know, or he isn't the kind powerful head master Harry thinks he is, or else he wants it to happen. Clearly, conceding that Dumbledore is weak goes against his characterisation and Harry himself is reluctant to do it. He is angry when Dumbledore shows signs of weakness (end of OotP). We as the readers seem to be doing the same. Instead of conceding that Dumbledore can't fix all, we want to believe he's been orchestrating this. However, Dumbledore always has another agenda. He is not just a kind powerful headmaster. He has ulterior motives right from the get go- is also the leader of the anti-Voldemort league, and Snape is, arguably, his most pivotal spy. Whilst it is not understandable for a kind headmaster to put the well-being of his students above the petty desires of his staff, it is understandable that Snape's petty well-being may be more important to the Voldemort War, not just the Hogwarts Students, if only to keep in on his side. Dumbledore needs his students taught (fire Snape!), but he also needs to ensure that Snape doesn't go back to Voldemort (umm, you can be as nasty as you like, so long as you're happy!). Dumbledore underestimates Snape- he suggests he can overcome his feelings for James to teach Harry Occlumency. He also finds the Snape/James charade, comical almost- the way he states the way he wanted to go back to hating James' memory like it's a fun fact. He believes in second chances. He also believes in the human spirit- always commending Harry on the faith he shows him, the courage he musters, rather than his intellectual decisions. He says he believes that Snape will be able to overcome his hatred. Dumbledore believes that Snape will stop it, without his interference. Even though Dumbledore has known Moody for years, a wizard who has been locked up for over a decade and who only abducted Moody one day earlier can suddenly be his exact double and only stuff up once, 10 months later. Unlikely! BUT, because this inconsistency is based on inaction, there is always the possibility that had other things on his mind. If Dumbledore is to be a consistent character (consistent with not recognising the dangers even when he should) then he just has to be not as powerful, not as kind, not as knowledgeable and not quite as good as we think. Someone who wasn't nice or powerful or knowledgeable or good can let Snape bully his kids, will not recognise a friend when a guy in his late 20's who has been stuffed under an invisibility cloak for the last 10 year under the Imperius charm impersonates him, won't recognise the signs of a basilisk attempt, will FLY to London, instead of apparating from the village, as it was _urgent_ business. The only person who can make all these mistakes is someone who is not Albus Dumbledore. Or is it? Of course we can always explain this away, can't we (without resorting to overly puppet-mastering schemes, that is)?! The interpretation of Dumbledore as perfect in the first place was really intended by JKR to show us the naivety of Harry's point of view. After all, Harry is slowly beginning to realise Dumbledore is an old man, who can't solve everything, who makes fatal mistakes, and what does he do? He gets angry. He throws things at him. Perhaps we as the reader are following a similar structure. We don't want Dumbledore to be weak, so we make him the puppet master, who knows all, and factors in failure as essential elements of Harry's journey which he is influencing. And what about Umbridge? The example of her insistence of taking Harry into the forest with Hermione at the end of OotP is often stated as being a plot device to get Harry to witness the events. JKR wants/needs Harry to see something, so she invents a plot device for him to see it. Why in the world should a woman choose someone who has consistently defied her in class, has just broken into her office, in not a crying girl, she _knows_ he can produce a corporeal Patronus and single-handedly repelled two Dementors the previous summer, she purposely out-numbers herself 2 to 1? There is proof he is a very powerful wizard, yet Dolores Umbridge asks him to come for a trip into a forest to see a really powerful weapon which he could know how to operate! Clearly, this is inconsistency to the extreme. Or is it? Dolores Umbridge enjoys seeing people punished. She enjoys holding the power, and watching people suffer- her detentions is enough, but she also wants to put the Cruciatus curse on Harry! Dolores Umbridge thinks she is a match for an entire herd of centaurs, it is very in character for Umbridge to consider herself a match for Potter, and actively seek pleasure from watching his suffer as she forces him to reveal Dumbledore's secret weapon to her. In fact, her choosing of Harry was an very much in character decision which very much drove the plot. If Umbridge didn't enjoy watching people suffer, she never would have brought Harry along, and then the events of OotP would never have turned out as they did. In fact, without Harry there, maybe the centaurs would have let Hermione pass (they say Harry is nearing manhood, but don't suggest Hermione is anything other than a foal), then she could have scurried back to the office where the others were waiting. I disagree with what you've said about not knowing Ron and Hermione in some ways, but agree is others. That is, we never really know why Ron and Hermione follow Harry down the trap-door after the Philosopher's Stone. They're loyal to Harry and morally concerned about a megalomaniac taking control, but they're not very specific or defining traits. But, Ron and Hermione's actions are never central to bringing on plot events. For instance, it would matter little whether Ron and Hermione were there with Harry, so long as he made it through the obstacles. Their presence there makes little difference to Harry. That is, is doesn't act differently because they were there. If Neville also came along for the ride, then it wouldn't have affected the way Harry behaved. Harry's personality- whether he's a hot-head or a procrastinator makes little difference once they've entered that trap-door. Most of the obstacles are tackled intellectually anyway- play a flute, light a fire, find the one and only key which matches the lock, play an intellectual game, figure out a puzzle - these are all things that have one answer and one answer alone. So temperament and characterisation aren't driving the plot. For instance, if Hamlet went to the third floor corridor, so long as he had all the knowledge, he too would make it to the mirror of Erised, even though Hamlet's character is considerably different to Harry's. Plot device- Ron and Hermione both get taken out early in all books because JKR wants Harry to reach the end alone. There is no good _character_ reason for Ron and Hermione not to keep going- they both _want_ to (they never lose faith), only JKR prevents them going on by leaving barely one gulp of potion. That is, Ron never gets scared and has to run away. (For instance, the book "Rowan of Rin" by Emily Rodda is about a group of people who endeavour to climb up a mountain, and every time they reach an obstacle one member of the team is incapable of going forward, gets scared and runs back down the mountain, so that when the boy Rowan is finally the very last person at the top of the mountain it was because he was the sole person who didn't lose courage, not because there was a one person only rule). The way JKR was setting it up, even if they made it all the way to the potions chamber, there was still only one gulp of potion to take the drinker onwards. Both of them wanted to keep going if they could. This is a bad move, because we don't learn anything about them as characters. What is Hermione's breaking point? She's never been tested, so we don't know. We know Harry can face torture, seeing his friends die, his own imminent death before breaking But when he sees his godfather die, he stops. What would it take to break Hermione? What does it take to scare Ron? Hey, they guy goes into the forest after the spiders, even though it is what he fears most in the world out of loyalty to his friends- Harry, imprisoned!Hagrid and petrified!Hermione. He doesn't run away like a coward! He vomits into the pumpkin patch, that's all! What does it take to make Ron lose his faith in Harry? In CoS, Hermione is petrified, Ron gets taken down by the landslide, so that Harry goes on alone, even though both of them want to keep going if they could. This doesn't really tell us anything about Ron and Hermione, again, because they both would have continued on if they hadn't been annoyingly blocked. The moment they change from wanting to reluctance that we learn the most about characters. It's why Harry's outburst at the end of OotP is so powerful- when he exclaims he doesn't want to be human any more. This is why Hermione's reluctance to `save Sirius' is a wonderful characterisation which actually drives the plot. If she wasn't so reluctant to check, they would never have been in Umbridge's office, they would have never been caught, they would never have had to go into the forest, they would have never encountered the thestrals with Luna, in fact, they probably would never have figured out a way to get there. Hermione's characterisation directly influences the plot here. She must find facts before she can invest herself to something. Hermione's characterisation is that she always has to check before she invests herself, and when she believes she is right she is blind. Don't believe me? What about all these other times in the story where Hermione checks before investing herself, because she is afraid of being wrong. In CoS she figures out that Harry is hearing a basilisk, but them she runs away before telling everyone. Of course, this is allegedly a big plot device moment- Harry can't know the creature is a basilisk until the very last moment- he can't know until the end of the year, on the very same day Ginny Wealsey has been taken because it creates tension. JKR has chosen the plot element and that is exactly what she does wrong- making characters do unlikely things, only because she wants the plot to turn out that way. Or is it? Hermione running off to the library to check if she's right is very much in character for Hermione. She's clearly very afraid of being wrong- her boggart, what she fears most in the whole world, is the clearest proof. She always checks before she says anything- she's checked the animagus list, so she confidently says there is no way Peter Pettigrew can be an animagus. She's checked the lunar charts and noticed Lupin is always sick on the full moon. She checks with Mcgonagall before telling Harry she thinks his broomstick is possessed. She will never concede her cat ate Ron's rat until he can verify the fact with hard proof. All these are examples of Hermione not believing something until there is verification. Also, Hermione is blind once she has facts. Take her house-elf cause. And then think about the blind belief that going into the forest to attract the centaurs was going to work to her plan. What about her insistence to continue with the polyjuice potion plan in CoS? What about her enthusiasm to continue the DA? If she thinks that she is right, she will not let rules get in her way. Again, this is a character choice that directly influences the plot of the story- if she hadn't lead Harry and Umbridge into the forest, they never would have met Grawp and the centaurs, they never could have been covered in blood, and never would have attracted the thestrals, and never flew to London. What's better is that her blindness was _wrong_. The DA was a good thing for Hermione to pursue because she _was_ right, but the centaurs may have lead to her own death. If Hermione wasn't Hermione, then OotP would not have been OotP. Her character was intrinsic to driving the plot. A defining feature of both Ron and Hermione is that, event hough they are always taken out of action against their will, they are happy for Harry to be the one who continues. They _want_ Harry to be the one who goes on alone. So, even when faced with forced exit from the proceedings, we still do learn something about their characterisation- that they are prepared to step down for Harry (Obsatcles in PS is the clearest example). In summary, I believe it is wrong to use the blanket statement that JKR is poor at characterisation and lets plot dictate character, instead of character dictating plot. A lot of character inconsistency relies of inaction, not action, which means they can be easily explained away (without grand plans or secret pupating from behind the scenes) by simply saying `They forgot/they didn't know/ they had other things on their minds.' Because of this, a lot of the alleged inconsistencies aren't really inconsistencies at all. Dzeytoun wrote: >Dumbledore IS NOT a >Machiavellian puppet master. Snape and Dumbledore ARE NOT engaged in >some tag team good cop/bad cop arrangement to teach Harry about >life. Snape IS NOT secretly a good guy who abuses Harry and Neville >for their own good. Dumbledore IS NOT some secret evil genius out to >manipulate Snape, Harry, and everybody else for some nefarious end. I reply: Couldn't agree more. Dumbledore is NOT a superhero. He is NOT omniscient. He is NOT a perfect human being. The guy has faults, he forgets things, he doesn't pay attention, he doesn't always choose the right thing to do. I think the belief that he is always a powerful wizard who can solve everything is also a flawed assumption. If we take it that Dumbledore isn't as powerful as we think, then it's perfectly in character for him to take a thestral to London on urgent business instead of apparating, because he was conserving his energy *grins* This post has gone on long enough, and I'm beginning to feel I should take up a career writing articles for the Quibbler (*cough* Or is it? *cough*), so I'll stop. Thanks for reading this far! ~<(Laurasia)>~ From yutu75es at yahoo.es Mon Jul 12 01:23:34 2004 From: yutu75es at yahoo.es (fridwulfa hagrid) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 03:23:34 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The sorting hat seems to think Harry is a pure-blooded wizard. References: <75EB2407D134C942A9AA6518C4B853A2024426@zeus.rsmnetworks.net> Message-ID: <000601c467b2$66554380$26e36750@portatil> No: HPFGUIDX 105693 Jenni wrote: > I'm sitting here watching the ABC Family showing of Harry Potter and the > Sorcerer's Stone movie and it suddenly occurred to me that the sorting hat > does seriously consider putting Harry into Slytherin. We also know, from the > Sorting Hat's New Song in OoP, that Slytherin house only takes pure-blooded > wizards. Putting two and two together I come out with Harry being considered > a pure-blood wizard, suggesting that the mere fact that Lily was in fact a > trained wizard nullifies the fact that she, herself, was muggle-born. > Me (Fridwulfa) Well, that's not entirely true. Tom Riddle aka Lord Voldemort was in Slytherin and his father was a muggle, he's a half-blood. What the Hat says is that at some point Slytherin didn't want muggleborns in Hogwarts because he found them untrustworthy. That doesn't mean that half-bloods or even muggleborns can't be sorted in Slytherin. CHeers, Fridwulfa From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 01:54:39 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 01:54:39 -0000 Subject: Who's the third dead death eater? / 'One who's left me forever...' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105694 > kandbmom: This whole chapter leaves me with unanswered questions. I > am also considering the idea that Snape could have been the man > standing next to the space that separated Lucius and "the next man". > I have a feeling Snape is "the next man" We know he had the mark and > he surely felt it burn and turn black. Why did he wait to show DD > why not go to him then and then DD would know something was wrong > before Harry came out of the maze. So, my question is, who is > the "One, who I believe has left me forever..." I am leaning toward > Fudge? He sure seems fishy!! Neri: Regarding the Snape-in-the-graveyard scenario, I had (how surprising) a speculation: Harry gets back from the graveyard, tells everybody that LV is back and names several DEs, but he doesn't mention Snape. Fudge storms out, and DD says to Snape: "Severus, you know what I must ask you to do. If you are prepared?" Snape answers, "I am" and sweeps out. Up to here it's canon, from here on ? my speculation: Snape gets out of the Hogwarts grounds and takes a small object out of its robes: it's a time turner. Snape turns it six or seven times, then he waits until his Dark Mark appears, and disaparates to the graveyard. He knows that LV will recognize him but will not name him (because Harry didn't hear it). Now to the part that the Snape fans will really like: Maybe, when Harry is running from the DEs and LV towards the Goblet, Snape curses the DE's from behind so they fail to hit Harry. He should do it very covertly, however, because while he knows that Harry did manage to get away, he doesn't know that he (the Snape from the future) got away with it. This speculation assumes that LV recognizes Snape in the circle but doesn't speak to him, perhaps because he trusts Snape to be his loyal agent in Hogwarts and doesn't want the other DEs to know about it (standard need-to-know procedure). This explains how in OotP Snape seems to have regained the double agent position. However, this lives the position of the "one who left me forever" open, and I don't believe it is Fudge (see post #105541 for my reasons). Besides, Snape in OotP strikes me very much like Snape-who-is-still-in-debt-to-James- and-hates-it, much more than Snape-who-closed-his-account-with-James- and-now-can-treat-his-son-like-a-human-being. So I shelved this whole speculation, but if you like it you are invited to it. Neri From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Mon Jul 12 01:57:18 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 01:57:18 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105695 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > Del replies : > Let's reconsider the events : > Snape was sitting quietly on his own reviewing his DADA OWL. > He stands up to go away. > His 2 arch-enemies come up *together*. > They insult him *loudly*. > > Now let's figure another imaginary scene. > Harry is sitting quietly on his own, revising for his OWLs. > He stands up to go away. > Draco, Crabbe and Goyle come up together, and insult him loudly. > > What is Harry going to do ? > Valky: It's already canon! I dont' need to speculate. He makes some wisecrack about Draco's complete incompetence. Del says: > Draw his wand. > Valky: No not yet.... Actually thats canon too. He usally draws his wand when he gets MAD. Harry has his fathers temper, I reckon. Del: > That doesn't mean that he's going to *use* it. That just means that he gets into a defensive position, because people with whom he's fought previously have just talked to him in a provocative way. > > And if Draco disarms Harry before he had time to properly get his wand ready, and then jinxes him, I think it's pretty clear that *Draco alone* started the fight, not Harry. > Valky: Well seeing as this is, as good as, never the way a melee between Draco and Harry plays out I guess we should dismiss it as a comparison. Del: > Moreover, there is no mention that James *outdrew* Snape. There's no mention that James had his wand out before Snape went for his own, > either. So no conclusion can be drawn based on the stated facts only. > However, Snape had his bag on his back and was taken unaware, while > James was pre-prepared to a fight, in fact he was hoping for it. So > even if James did outdraw Snape, it still wasn't fair. > Valky: Fair enough a statement. But just a question, to you. Are you sure that you are not too quickly dismissing Sirius' and Lupin's adult statement, to Harry, that Snape was indeed dangerous? > Valky wrote : > slanging. If that's the *first* attack that your referring to then it has nothing to do with duelling at all. Snape is of course within his right to reply with his exceptional wit ............. ;D > > Del replies : > Even in RL, fights rarely start straight by using the fists. Most of the time, they start with words. Fists give out physical blows, but words give emotional blows, and it's not rare to see people reacting to an insult in the same way they would react to a physical blow. Thus, James's insult *was* the first blow and had indeed started the duel. Snape could have chosen to keep the duel on the level of words, but that doesn't change the fact that *James* gave the first blow. > Valky: Yes, ...and No. You see, it is unfortunate because the predicament I am in is; No matter how many ways I rephrase it or insist it, there will always be a grey area. I am posting my defence of James, but that can very easily be construed as a post in defense of those actions, of his, which I cannot defend. Like picking the fight. Indeed I shall give no support to that choice of James'. It was a wrong and stupid choice. I am defending James, against the presumption that he is *nothing more* than a shallow self centered and cruel little prat at the time of the pensieve. I am attempting to demonstrate that there is something deeper going on there between James and Snape, I am arguing that the fight was never one sided. But not, I am not saying, that James was innocent or that his actions are excusable. So I separate the baiting from the wand match. Because once the wands are out Snape is deadly serious, the situation becomes serious. The baiting is a crime by James. But when Snape has his wand in his hand the one sidedness ends. He will only attack James, and it will not be pretty if he wins. > Valky wrote : > > It is always James against Snape. > > Del replies : > So what's wrong with Draco ? Why do we despise him for having his > body-guards around whenever he attacks Harry ? After all, it's always Draco against Harry, isn't it ? So I guess we should actually consider Draco *courageous* for daring to take on such a famous and obviously talented wizard as Harry. > Valky: The comparison here works better, in your favour, I will admit. This is the comparison we are meant to make, I am sure. Harry v Draco is a serious matter also, no denying that. The real difference is that neither Harry nor Draco are practicing the kind of magic that Snape WAS as a young man. (I will boldly predict that in future books Draco will and Harry will be faced with the same kind of opponent his father *chose* as a teen. And that may be a new insight for Harry into the Snape v James story.) Draco isn't dangerous in the books so far. And as such, since we compare James with him, it leads to the conclusion that neither was James. But, we have canon, that Snape was. Del: > If it was indeed James only against Snape, then Sirius should not have intervened. And James should have told him to stop when he did. Harry would never let Ron hex a lone Draco after he, Harry, had disarmed him. In fact, Ron would never even think of it, precisely because it's not a noble thing to do. > Valky: Point well made and taken. I will reiterate a post from earlier on this thread where I did insist that I do not intend to argue that James or Sirius actions were noble. I am here to prove that J and S are OK, really. That we miss the point with the pensieve scene, that the brave and noble James is there, just harder to see. > Valky wrote : > > So far they had managed to disarm Snape one > > on one. James had allowed Sirius to vent on him and then..... > > .....well Snape never backed down. Not that they ever should have expected him too, but they did. Snape instead swears at them, curses and hexes and such that James gets huffy, as in "Hey I just bested you in battle dude, show a little respect for your superiors.". > > Del replies : > Snape never had any opportunity to actually point his wand at James, he wasn't given enough time for that. James was no superior to Snape, and both James and Snape knew that. > Valky: You have made my point exactly. Snape had no opportunity to point his wand at James. And James was no superior to Snape. Now I ask you, Del, If James had been a second slower in drawing out his own wand, what would have happened do you think? Would Snape have thrown the stupefy or impedimenta, maybe the expelliarmus hmmm? Del: > And honestly, I don't see anything that dangerous in a curse that > opens a gash in a cheek. A fist can open your lip or break any part of your body : just as dangerous. > Valky: What if..... Del, Snape was aiming at James throat. > Valky wrote : > > Snape only wants James head on a platter. He even ignores Sirius, despite Sirius best efforts to get his attention. > > Del replies : > Snape knows that James is the leader. If he can win over James, > chances are Sirius will leave him alone. Snape also knows that James is the one with the cool head and the sadistic trait, hence the most dangerous one. Sirius is much more hot-blooded and straight- forward : a much easier opponent. > Valky: Yes it could well be all of that too. Except that I am sure Snape thinks Sirius is a sadist in this case because he is the one that impedimentas him. And that I am pretty sure Snape thinks he's more dangerous than both of them he's just frustrated he can't show it. He does threaten them with a manner that speaks of someone who considers himself dangerous. And I will stick with my Snape already knows what Sirius has to say and just doesn't care because its only talk. > > Valky wrote : > > What matters, in the context of my statement, is that Snape IS an example, because he is known for his involvement in this part of the WW. > > Del replies : > Maybe, but at the moment he was attacked, he was alone and doing > nothing reprehensible. I just don't see Harry attacking Draco when > Draco is all alone, doing nothing wrong and not prepared. Draco would do that, not Harry. > Valky: But James did not attack Snape when he was not prepared. They went for their wands at the same time. Haven't you seen any old westerns lately? > Valky wrote : > > James baited Snape to challenge him. > > Del replies : > No, James challenged Snape by verbally attacking him. A few centuries ago, people would duel because of a bad word, and nowadays, people still fight because they don't like what their neighbour said. A verbal attack is an attack, and an insult is a challenge. After all, when someone is insulted and doesn't react, isn't he considered a coward for not standing for himself ? James challenged Snape, not the other way around. > Valky: Well yeah in way he did. The way I read the story here was that this was a longstanding challenge that has never been resolved. > Huntergreen wrote : >> As for teenage Snape, well, considering that he came to school > > > with all those ideas of dark magic, who's to say he wasn't raised that way? (and yes, I know Sirius was too, but Sirius was sorted into Gryffindor, and thus had someone else to make an impression on him). He was taught to behave that way, so hating muggle-borns was "right" and "noble" for him. Clearly, he had it the wrong way around, but who taught him the right way? > > Valky answered : > > Well Sirius really wanted to but he just couldn't get Snapes > > attention you see........ > > Del replies : > Sirius didn't want to *teach* him, he wanted to *force* him. And you don't show someone the way to goodness by being mean to them. Valky: LOL I absolutely agree Sirius DID want to FORCE him to realise Dark Arts were no good. Sirius was 15 years old. He's not Dumbledore. > > Valky wrote : > > It is our choices that make us what we are. > > Del replies : > But somehow, the fact that Snape *chose*, against everything that had been taught to him as a child, against everything he had believed all his life, to follow DD in the end, doesn't count, does it ? Snape *chose* to work for DD and to stop using Dark Magic, but no, he's till and will always be evil old Snape. How logical is that ? And how fair ? > Valky: Who said I was saying he will always be evil old Snape? We KNOW he was evil then and changed his ways to now. Are you in denial of that Del? From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 01:58:45 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 01:58:45 -0000 Subject: Harry apparating (Was: Royalty?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105696 Finwitch wrote: I wonder - will Harry go in uncontrollable anger, in defiance, on his > own again in sixth book? Yet, it needs to be different from all the > others, and include something to link it to previous books... (and > um - Harry's going to be of age by wizarding standards in book 7, so > maybe in THAT book, he'll just apparate away!) Carol responds: That's assuming that he can apparate with a trunk and a caged owl, which I don't think can be done (though he did "portkey" carrying Cedric, with both his wand and the portkey in his other hand). I'm curious to see how JKR will handle the transportation in Biik 7 especially. Carol From tzakis1225 at netzero.com Mon Jul 12 02:07:14 2004 From: tzakis1225 at netzero.com (demetra1225) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 02:07:14 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105697 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "charme" wrote: > First let me say I am SO happy I found this group! :) This is my > first post here, so bear with me while I get my bearings, eh? > > Remember in JK Rowling's World Book Day Chat on 3/4/2004, she > answered a question which supports your argument, Amey. She > specifically did NOT say that the sorting hat was "accurate," but > instead merely defaulted to the hat being "certainly sincere." > There's also reference to James stating to Lily in the Pensieve > memory that it was the mere fact Snape existed which caused the > friction betwix the 2 of them; what if the initial first year > sorting for Snape was remarkably similiar to Harry's? Potter, > Black, Lupin all would have already been sorted, because canon > supports an alphabetical sequence of events in that regard. Could > you imagine how freaked the Gryffindors would be hearing Snape, of > all people, having a choice?! This also could be part of the reason > he hates Harry so - Harry made a decision that Snape himself could > not. Demetra: Welcome to the group. Interesting theory on Snape's sorting. You are right, James and Sirius would have already been sorted into Gryffindor before Snape's turn at the hat. Maybe what was similar to Harry's sorting was that Snape had a negative encounter with Sirius and/or James prior to the sorting, like Harry did with Draco. Perhaps Snape even asked not to be placed in the same house as James and Sirius. I'm not saying that the hat *would* have put Snape in Gryffindor, just that Snape would not have wanted to be in the same house with the others. From Batchevra at aol.com Mon Jul 12 02:33:04 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 22:33:04 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: James the Berk? Message-ID: <1c0.1b859bda.2e235260@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105698 In a message dated 7/11/04 2:38:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, delwynmarch at yahoo.com writes: >Del replies On the other hand, Lupin as a werewolf was indeed a mortal danger, and Sirius sent Snape to him.< I snipped most of the rest because I can't decide what exactly is the bullying and what is the truth of the situation, except that Sirius sent Snape to Lupin. Lupin told us that Snape had seen Madame Pomphrey take him to the Whomping Willow to transform, and was interested where he went. Granted Sirius never told Snape what was going on, but told him how to get through the Willow. What Snape should have known is that the teachers were somewhat already informed about something that should have been kept quiet.Yes, Sirius sent Snape to the Shrieking Shack, but Snape was partly at fault for going. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 02:39:49 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 02:39:49 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: <1c0.1b859bda.2e235260@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105699 Batchevra at a... wrote: > Lupin told us that Snape had seen Madame Pomphrey take him to the Whomping > Willow to transform, and was interested where he went. Granted Sirius never told > Snape what was going on, but told him how to get through the Willow. What > Snape should have known is that the teachers were somewhat already informed about > something that should have been kept quiet.Yes, Sirius sent Snape to the > Shrieking Shack, but Snape was partly at fault for going. > > Batchevra > > Alla: Without speculating about Sirius' reasons for ding what he did, without reiterating once again about "bad blood" between Sirius and Snape, I will partially agree with you: Unless we learn that Snape was under Imperium curse, he had NO BUSINESS going into Shack, absolutely NONE. He was desperate to learn Lupin's secret to have them all expelled? Well, he got more than he bargained for. No, he did not deserve to be eaten by Werewolf, but if he went into Shack of his own free will, he was WRONG in doing so. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 02:42:04 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 02:42:04 -0000 Subject: The power of words in the WW (Was: Fear and Valour) In-Reply-To: <002501c462a1$aec8abe0$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105700 Sherry wrote: I've never yet heard a death > eater call Voldemort by his name. In fact, though I have nothing but gut instinct, this is one of the reasons I don't believe in ESE Lupin or Black. > They freely say his name. They are not afraid of him. The death eaters > fear Voldemort, that is part of the hold he has over them. Carol responds: I'm not sure what I think about this idea. Certainly some of the Death Eaters (e.g., Nott, Avery, and the coward Karkaroff), and even Bellatrix was pleading with Voldemort near the end of OoP. But her reaction to Harry's saying the name ("How dare you?" or words to that effect) indicates indignation rather than fear. She's furious that Harry, a child in her eyes, dares to say her master's name. And in Snape's case, it's different still. The name causes him physical pain and he unconsciously clutches his left arm. That, to me, is the most solid evidence we've seen that he really is a "traitor" to the DE cause. Whether Voldemort still thinks of him as "the one who has left us forever" or has changed his mind, accepting the excuse of not bing able to apparate into the graveyard and so on, the mark itself senses Snape's disloyalty to the DE cause (as it did in the confrontation in GoF between Snape and Fake!Moody even though the name itself was not spoken). Whatever the reason why the other DE's avoid Voldemort's name--fear or deference or a desire to make the name fearful throughout the WW--Snape has his own reason for calling Voldemort "the Dark Lord." On a related note, the other Order members (except Dumbledore and Lupin) habitually say "You Know Who." Snape never uses this term. Probably as a DE he got into the habit of saying "the Dark Lord." He may feel that "You Know Who" is a slightly ridiculous alternative, or he retained the habit of saying "The Dark Lord" to avoid arousing the suspicions of his Slytherin students and his Death Eater contacts. BTW, has anyone noticed the contrast between Dumbldore's practical, almost real-world approach to words and names (don't use euphemisms; call it by its name) and Gandalf's and Aragorn's in LOTR, where words do seem to have power (e.g., Strider scolds Frodo for saying that if he goes without food any longer, he'll become a wraith)? It strikes me as odd that Dumbledore, who knows what words can do when used as spells, takes their power so lightly. Are there any other examples of words that can or might have power in the WW besides Voldemort's name and spells or incantations? (If anyone wonders, the distinction I'm making here is between one- or two-word spells like "Expelliarmus" and "Avada Kedavra" and lengthy incantations, possibly accompanied with Potions, as in the restoration of Voldemort in GoF.) Wouldn't a spoken oath be magically binding, for example? (Again, think LOTR or the Silmarillion--the Ring binds Gollum to his oath; the Silmarils bind the sons of Feanor to theirs.) Would an oath sworn to Voldemort have power beyond the personal vengeance of Voldemort on the oath breaker? (I'm assuming that the initiation ceremony in which the DEs received their Dark Marks involved some such oath and that Snape is breaking or has broken his.) Carol, who now has Pippin's oath to Lord Denethor running through her head From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jul 12 03:19:28 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 03:19:28 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes (or Snape-aholics and Siriophiles) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105701 > SSSusan: > I'm sorry, but I'm totally perplexed by your response here. I > wasn't talked about the Dursleys or Harry's safety, really. I was > asking what was going on w/ Snape's inability to set aside some old > wounds and overcome his feelings about James. Does that make sense? > Potioncat: I have to wonder just what did happen between James and Severus. And I have a feeling (no canon) that there is more to the animosity Severus shows toward Harry than old feelings about James. I don't the good cop/bad cop partnership works either. At best, I think DD tolerates Snape's behavior for some reason. Potioncat From sherriola at earthlink.net Mon Jul 12 03:19:46 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:19:46 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The sorting hat seems to think Harry is a pure-blooded wizard. In-Reply-To: <75EB2407D134C942A9AA6518C4B853A2024426@zeus.rsmnetworks.net> Message-ID: <002b01c467bf$1583f340$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 105702 Jenny said I'm sitting here watching the ABC Family showing of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone movie and it suddenly occurred to me that the sorting hat does seriously consider putting Harry into Slytherin. We also know, from the Sorting Hat's New Song in OoP, that Slytherin house only takes pure-blooded wizards. Putting two and two together I come out with Harry being considered a pure-blood wizard, suggesting that the mere fact that Lily was in fact a trained wizard nullifies the fact that she, herself, was muggle-born. Sherry replies When I read SS/PS, I don't get the idea that the sorting hat wanted to place Harry in Slytherin. When the hat starts to mull it all over, Harry is the one to say, "not Slytherin." At that point, the hat begins to tell Harry about how Slytherin could benefit him, but when Harry continues to wish not to be put there, it sends him to Gryffindor. My feeling is that it was Harry's thinking not Slytherin that initiated the whole "discussion". There's no way to know if the hat would have considered Slytherin, if Harry hadn't brought it up. Harry seems to me to be very definitely a Gryffindor. Actually, I think he possesses a bit of the characteristics of all the houses, as I suppose almost anyone would, but the Gryffindor qualities seem to be most predominant. Sherry G From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 03:26:25 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 03:26:25 -0000 Subject: Snape Question In-Reply-To: <011901c462ad$8b6a99e0$e60b8f45@Voov> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105703 "Firedancer" (June) wrote: Snape is one of those folks you're always going to wonder about. My question is, where did the wimpy teen get the how-with-all to become so menacing? I don't think being a death-eater is for sissies, unless you're Wormtail. Any thoughts on that one? Carol responds: My thought on this is that, first, he must have developed a bit physically, going from being skinny at fifteen to thin and wiry as he reached eighteen or twenty. More important, I think he deliberately cultivated an image, possibly in direct response to the Pensieve incident and the Prank, that made him less of a geeky little oddball and more formidable, more clearly someone who should not be crossed without the risk of embarrassment or worse. He probably developed a more upright posture, a sweeping walk, an intimidating stare, a sarcastic manner, all as defenses against the Jameses and Siriuses of the world. Whether he became a Death Eater before or after he developed this persona I can't say, but he certainly has it in his thirties as Potions Master. The ability to control his anger (most of the time) and possibly occlumency, which I think he uses to hide his emotions even when he's not facing Voldemort, may be part of this same carefully cultivated personality. Unlike several recent posters, I don't think he was ever a member of the original Order or Sirius would have known it and told Harry. I think Severus was merely a Hogwarts student who was "on our side" in that he had not (yet) joined the Death Eaters. He who is not against me is with me, to reverse the saying. Carol, who is only presenting thoughts here, not theories From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Mon Jul 12 04:00:12 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 04:00:12 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105704 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > Valky wrote : It was a Dark Arts Curse, I will take that bet with anyone who dares..... the precise 'case in point' to show that Snape was serious in battle with James, deadly serious. > > Del frowns and calls for a truce. She's just realised that this > particular argument won't get anywhere because... > "You know, Valky, we still haven't got a definition of what > constitutes Dark Magic." The Fox looks startled :"Why, it's obvious, isn't it ? Anything Snape uses at that time IS Dark Magic, that was his preferred style then, right?" ;D > Del sighs : > "Well, let's agree to disagree then, because in my mind he was entitled to use whatever means he could. He had been attacked for no reason, and not given a proper chance to defend himself. Fox twirls her wand between her fingers her brow furrows: "Why do you use 'defend' as a Snape operative in that sentence? It doesn't fit with all his other actions in the memory or anywhere else, for that matter. Why do you think he would merely have defended himself?" Del's knuckles clamp tighter around her wand as the Fox continues to speak.... "Canon everywhere proves that Snape would always prefer to be doing the damage...." the Fox suddenly closes her mouth and backs away. "ahh Del... I....." > Del's wand is raised; "I'm disappointed that he should choose such a violent curse to retaliate, but I feel it was his right to do whatever he wanted to get out of a situation he had not done anything to get into. And I'm still not convinced it was a Dark Curse !" > Fox pushes her blonde hair back from her eyes and surveys her opponent with interest: "hmm Ok we'll move on then.... for now..." Del: On to the next point, then :-) > > Valky wrote : > > "...only because you're too noble to use them..." ring a bell to > > you at all? > > Del answered : > "Who wants to see me take off Snivelly's pants ?" > Ring another bell ? > > Valky replied : We aren't up to that bit yet, Del. > > Del smiles : Ah bah, you're the one who started with the out-of- context quotes :-) And anyway, I don't *care* if James was upset or whatever. In my opinion, anyone willing to use such methods, whatever the circumstances, is not noble at heart. Being willing to humiliate someone that thoroughly is the antithesis of nobility in my idea. > Valky: Darn it Del! Excellent point. My only argument is that it isn't really relevant to my mention of nobility in James because I absolutely believe he abandoned all sense of being right or good the moment he felt the humiliation of Lily's rejection. Which is why I soooo *totally didn't* want to be made to argue this in this context. > Valky wrote : > > Snape never takes his eyes off James. There is a silent dialogue > > between them. Sirius is of no consequence in the slightest to Snape. Theres a huge backstory in just that small fact. > > Del replies : > I agree, but that doesn't change the fact that James was not alone. > Harry couldn't care less about Crabbe and Goyle, he ignores them > superbly, but when they accompany Draco when Draco attacks Harry, it's still considered 3-on-1. > Sirius was there, he constituted a second source of danger, forcing > Snape to keep his eyes on both James and Sirius, and he took turns > attacking Snape. Even if Snape only considered Sirius as an extension of James (like Harry does with C&G), it doesn't change the fact that it was still 2 wizards against one. > Valky: Yes and yes and yes... But Snape never took his eyes off James. Sirius never really forced him to do anything. That's all I can say about that because I have run out of canon to prove it. You can have this one, if you want. But, be sure that I'll be back, to reclaim it when the backstory is revealed. :D > > Valky wrote : > > I think that Sirius and James were neither intending to punish > > Snape for his beliefs OR his acts. But to demonstrate a position > > of authority over them for its own end. > > In other words they stood over what he represented, to them, > > entirely for the reason of standing over it. Nothing else. > > Del replies : > Which in my eyes was both a perfectly unjustified and stupid thing to do. Unjustified because they have no right to harass a student because of his convictions, and stupid because they used evil to fight evil, which is always unproductive, if not counterproductive. > Valky: On point one 'unjustified': I am not trying to justify it. I am just pointing it out. That's enough to show that there was a deeper level to the scene. On point two 'stupid': They are only 15 and they ARE stupid. Thats all I have to say about that. > Valky wrote : > > My point is HE DOES change them to become the Snape we know in the modern day HP World, whereas what is in James heart does not change. > > Del replies : > Sorry Valky, but I'm afraid the whole point of James is that he *did* change :-) She would not go out with 15-year-old James, but she married his 18-year-old counterpart. Lily said it herself : James was no better than Snape. Valky: Ok this is one of those 'things you don't mean, but do mean' things. 1. Lily was furious! You say things you don't mean when your furious. (It's good enough for those people on the list who use it to claim that Snape wasn't really a racist in the scene :p) 2. Sirius and Lupin floo conversation..... "Lily never hated James" I put a little more weight on this statement obviously than you do. (btw how on earth did Sirius' words become the ones we can question? Why is he a liar? Did someone just suppose he could be lying and then a bunch of people ran away with it? I, for one, will not be throwing out what Sirius says as canon.) Del: Both James and Snape changed drastically > after the Pensieve scene, even if James changed earlier than Snape. > Valky: Well that remains to be seen. For now, I am simply not convinced that James needed to change all that drastically. From donpietro69 at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 12 00:09:37 2004 From: donpietro69 at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Lee=20Moyo?=) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 01:09:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20040711160735.021f6bf8@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <20040712000937.48287.qmail@web25108.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105705 Lissa wrote: > There's no doubt James' and Sirius' (and even Lupin's, to an extent) > behavior rings a bell with most of us and with Harry. We can all agree > that it's terrible to threaten someone with bodily harm, but we get just as > strong a reaction watching the threat of humiliation. I think the reason > we (and Harry!) respond so strongly to this one is experience. Not all of > us are threatened with someone murdering us. But how many of us remember > being horribly embarrassed on the playground? And still have some rancor > over those memories? I read what James et al did to Snape and I feel > furious at them because I remember in sixth grade an entire class of kids > trying to force me to kiss a guy on the playground- and I think of that. Lee: That is definitely a valid point. Another reason for this could be that it is labelled as Snape worst thought. I think after some consideration, it might be that Snape removes the thought as one of the bad ones that he has. And he does this for many others but we don't actually see all them as Harry does not explore more. The fact that Harry is still young and has not seen the other side of what Snape has done he then finds is hard to accept and he is angry with his dad. Which is what Sirius implies. Then there is the fact that we see this through Harry's eyes and the thought could be that Harry thinks it is Snape's worst thought. Snape probably just removes the thought so that Harry can not use it against him along with other thoughts which Snape removes. In short, it is probably one of many things that happened between Snape and James as Sirius said that he does not want Harry to know. Just my humble opinion on this. Alla wrote : > I am positive that Pensieve scene had a HUGE backstory. I am > ready to bet ANYTHING that there was a very old feud either between > James/or Sirius and Snape or their families. Del replies : > I realise that maybe I didn't make that point clear enough : I was > just discussing the Pensieve scene. I too am fully convinced that > there's a whole backstory. James and Snape hated each other at least > as much as Draco and Harry do. It was only James' behaviour *in that > one scene* that I was criticising. Lee: Sorry to but in to this rather good conversation so late but saying things with kids, though a bad thing as we know and I don't support it, well kids will say things in heated situations because they are hurt. They may not mean it that way, but will say it just to hurt someone because they are hurt. And when young what more to hurt someone than embarrassing them, which Snape would not have liked, a girl fighting his corner from his nemesis who likes the girl in question. Sorry for butting in again. Lee From clarkuss09 at hotmail.com Mon Jul 12 01:29:45 2004 From: clarkuss09 at hotmail.com (clarkuss09) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 01:29:45 -0000 Subject: Mandrakes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105706 Surely in the HPATCOS the school would have been able to retrieve mandrakes from another source other than the herbology department. especially due to the fact that they could have brought the people back to their ordinary state and found out what petrified them.... -clarkuss From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 04:10:41 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 04:10:41 -0000 Subject: Harry uses Hermione's wand to kill Volemort? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105707 kitten wrote: Take Ron, if I remember correctly we didn't know what his first wand was either, it wasn't until the third book, when he had to get a new one thanks to the tree in the second book, that we find out what his new one is. Carol: My apologies for responding to a minor aside rather than to your main point, but we do learn that both Ron's original wand and his new one have a unicorn hair core. The second quotation isn't relevant here, but here's the first: "He [Ron] rummaged in his trunk and pulled out a very battered looking wand. It was chipped in places and something white was glinting at the end. 'Unicorn hair's nearly poking out. Anyway--'" (SS Am. ed. 105). The wand was formerly Charlie's (100), which perhaps explains the rough usage. It's replaced in PoA by another with a similar core. Whether the wood is the same as well, we don't know. The length could also be different. Carol P.S. As to the core of Hermione's wand, which as you said in a snipped portion of the post, we don't know, there are of course only three possibilities. Since Ron's is a unicorn hair and Harry's is a Phoenix feather, I think it's a safe bet that Hermione's is a dragon's heartstring. Carol From mayeaux45 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 07:15:09 2004 From: mayeaux45 at yahoo.com (mayeaux45) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 07:15:09 -0000 Subject: Movie PoA Foreshadows Books 6 & 7 (other than Lupin-related) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105708 Katie: > I was actually thinking about the scene in the movie where non- > Padfoot Sirius appears in the crystal ball, right before Trelawney > wigs out and sounds like Linda Blair. But that's a fascinating > point, and it adds doubly to the idea that Sirius will appear in > Divination-type form again. Oh, and what was with the movie's Grim- > shaped cloud, by the way? Mayeaux45: Not only the cloud, but what was up with the black umbrella as well?! It entered the Quidditch scenes in two different shots. I hope it meant something. Cause if not,that just means that was wasted film on a plain black umbrella flying in the wind! Any ideas HP sleuths as to the clues it might have presented? From donpietro69 at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 12 01:37:22 2004 From: donpietro69 at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Lee=20Moyo?=) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 02:37:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: PoA Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040712013722.33668.qmail@web25101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105709 Cathy wrote: > > So, do you think the stuff that has been left out, important > > things, mean they are not as important after all? Mayeaux45: > JKR is always the "go to" person when making these films and > keeping to the important themes. If the movie is wrapped up > and released to the public, just know that JKR has approved > it first! Lee: As ever I am late on this but, the thing is she may approve the film, but that does not necessarily mean that she has informed them of all the things that need to be put in for fear of people leaking important things for the next books. As good as the movies are, her priority, as I am sure we all agree is the books and not necessarily the films. Then there is the whole thing of the different directors all the time. She may feel that once they have nothing to do with the film then they might reveal things intersionally to justify why they done the film from that angle, or by mistake. I mean even her editor does not know what will be in there till she has finished her "concrete" draft. And even then she seems to be the one who has more of a say on things. Lee. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 04:21:46 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 04:21:46 -0000 Subject: Return from the Underworld in Ancient Mythology (Re: Sirius Black) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105710 > mhbobbin wrote: > There have been many excellent comments on this ancient myth-related > theory. My personal take on it is that in each case of returning from > the Underworld in Classic Mythology, there is some negotiation and > then some condition put upon the event. So even in Ancient > Mythology there?s more to it than knowing where the entrance is and > knowing how to get past the giant three headed dog.(Just where is > Fluffy these days?) No doubt JKR will devise her own twists on the > rules should she pursue a story line like this. Carol responds: As one who is quite happy to leave Sirius as he is and get on with the story, I may be a bit prejudiced here. But I think it's quite possible that we've already had our symbolic journey into the "underworld," complete with a three-headed dog bought from a "Greek chappie" (significance, anyone?) in Book 1. (BTW, that's another place where the filmmakers messed up, changing the nationality of the "chappie.") Carol From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 02:27:42 2004 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 02:27:42 -0000 Subject: OT: Re: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105711 Laurasia: > BUT, take Lord of the Rings- Tolkein left book 2 of a trilogy with > Frodo dead, and Sam taking the burden of the ring and continuing on. > Tolkein was setting himself up as an evil author who could kill the > main character if he wanted to, so readers were scared that all of > their beloved characters could die at any moment. Katie: If the elves will permit a brief, OT post: Your post was fascinating; I just wanted to make one minor correction. Frodo is not dead to the reader at the end of The Two Towers; he is quite alive, but captured in the Tower. (You can make a comparable point with Gandalf, though!) -Katie From dontask2much at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 02:44:54 2004 From: dontask2much at yahoo.com (charme) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 22:44:54 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: James the Berk? References: Message-ID: <05df01c467ba$36fe4cf0$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> No: HPFGUIDX 105712 >Demetra: Welcome to the group. Interesting theory on Snape's sorting. You are right, James and Sirius would have already been sorted into Gryffindor before Snape's turn at the hat. Maybe what was similar to Harry's sorting was that Snape had a negative encounter with Sirius and/or James prior to the sorting, like Harry did with Draco. Perhaps Snape even asked not to be placed in the same house as James and Sirius. I'm not saying that the hat *would* have put Snape in Gryffindor, just that Snape would not have wanted to be in the same house with the others.< charme: Thanks :) I have a bit of a weird obsession with Snape ever since GoF; frankly, he's the most interesting character in the whole series to me. He reminds me of your typical brainiac or the equivalent of the modern day geek, and I think his boggart would be a perception of failure just like Hermione's. There's also a certain duality to Severus (I just love his name) from the tyrant professor who hates Harry, to someone does try to help him in his weird, maniacal way. For example, in OoP he really does flip out when he thinks that Harry isn't progressing at Occlumency: he *knows* from experience just the kind of weaknesses Voldemort exploited in him and needs to impress the urgency on Harry his suspicions of the results if Harry doesn't succeed. I'm not a Snape-had-a-unrequited-love-thing-for-Lily theory supporter. Rather, I think Lily was one of the few people who ever stuck up for Snape (we know she does in canon,) and perhaps this also indebted him for a different reason to her than to James for saving his life: Snape was only in a position to have his life saved because of Sirius and while he'd hate James for it, I'm not sure how indebted someone who thinks as logically as Snape does would feel. On the other hand, someone who shows you a kindness or support when you feel like an outsider is usually never forgotten, no matter how you react at the moment. The memories Harry has of the night James and Lily were killed are particularly interesting, since I believe they are the combination of 2 memories and not just 1. The "silly girl" reference by one of the voices has stuck with me since I first read it, and I won't be surprised to learn Snape was there before Voldemort came and helped Lily with either a potion, charm or both for Harry as protection "just in case." Ya'll probably think I've gone loony on you :) From jmay_71 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 03:28:46 2004 From: jmay_71 at yahoo.com (jmay_71) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 03:28:46 -0000 Subject: Royalty in the WW Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105713 I don't know if anyone has posted this idea before, and if they have I apologize. With that said, here it goes... Alot has been written in theory as to who is the HBP. Alot has also been written regarding the lack of actual royal characters within the stories, and therefore the term "Prince" must refer to someone who is not actual royalty. I was just watching HP and the Sorcerer's Stone on TV and a thought occured to me during the Great Feast scene at the beginning of the movie. It is during this scene that Nearly Headless Nick aka Sir Nicholas is introduced. The title of Sir would indicate that Nicholas is a knight. The title of knight is (or in this case was) bestowed by a royal entity. Therefore, royalty does exist withen the context of the Harry Potter stories. Of course, it could be mostly muggle royalty with a few wizards/witches thrown in for good measure... Just a thought... Jen From submarimon15 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 03:36:30 2004 From: submarimon15 at yahoo.com (Mike) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 03:36:30 -0000 Subject: Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: <155.3958951b.2e233a91@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105714 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, xtremesk8ergurl2 at a... wrote: > One question I have, is even though Harry didn't want to be in Slytherin, > I remember DD saying at one point(in CoS) that he definitely should have > been in Gryfindor. I can understand why the sorting hat would think of Slytherin with the scar and all, but do any of you think that the hat > would of changed its mind after a few minutes? Mike: The hat didn't change it's mind. It equally considered Gryffindor and Slytherin, but Harry chose to be sorted into Gryffindor. DD reminds us at the end of CoS that it's 'our choices who make us who we are.' It's obvious that there are going to be people who fit into more than one house. I find that a lot of hardworking people would be rather intelligent and thus could easily be in Hufflepuff or Ravenclaw. Harry may have a connection to Voldemort, but I doubt that's the only reason the hat considered him from Slytherin. He may not be ambitious as say, Hermione in academics, but he has his own things he works to the best of his ability towards. In short, Harry chose to be in Gryffindor rather than Slytherin after the Hat basically told him he could fit well into either. You continued: > Another question I have, > is if Slytherin and its house is all dark magic, then why do they have a Slytherin house? > > -xtremesk8ergurl There is nothing that says all Slytherins practice Dark Magic and become Dark Wizards. You have to remember that the book is from Harry's perspective, and in his experiences Slytherins are definitely unpleasant. Snape treats him unfairly and Malfoy and some of his cronies take every oppertunity to make his school days hard. This does not mean however, that everyone in Slytherin house feels the same way Draco Malfoy might. There is at least one student in Slytherin that we know of that even has a Death Eater parent, yet doesn't torment Harry or hang around Draco. This person is Theodore Nott and many people have speculated here that he'll have a bigger part which I hope is true. Theodore hasn't done anything to stand out in Harry's mind either way which is the same for a lot of Hufflepuff's and Ravenclaws. So far it's just stereotyping (Hagrid and Ron both do this a lot in Harry's presence. Remember these two people both made Harry choose Gryffindor over Slytherin in the first place) that you (and some characters in the novel) believe that all of Slytherin House is bad. I'm sure as the story progresses we'll learn that they aren't all like Draco Malfoy-- and obviously they aren't since they all aren't hanging around with him and tormenting others. Hope that clears it up, Mike From sad1199 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 03:52:47 2004 From: sad1199 at yahoo.com (sad1199) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 03:52:47 -0000 Subject: PoA Question In-Reply-To: <000c01c466a6$45173690$14c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105715 Cathy wrote: >> Several people here think that the PoA movie, particularly some 'added' scenes or incidents that were not in the book, foreshadow what is going to happen in books 6 & 7. If that is the case, can we also assume that the things that were left out, things that we think - for one reason or another - are important, are not as important as we thought? << sad1199 replies: I have said this in e-mails to others but have not posted it yet. I don't think that any changes in the movies are credible. JKR wrote "the books", a screenwriter rewrote them into movies. I know she has to approve of them but I also know that the movies have to be shortened, romanticized and edited to make them watchable for most of the non-reading public. There are no obvious instances of romance between Hermione and Harry in the books, yet people are seeing them in PoA (the movie). If JKR is for some reason changing her thinking and adding or deleting important facts for the movies to support future books I myself will be very disappointed. Such as the wand scene in the movie that was not in the book. If that comes to be important in book 6 or 7 after not being in book 4 JKR will lose my respect as a writer and author. I am an author myself (though not of JKR's standing) and an AVID book reader. It just would not benefit anyone for the differences (in the books and the movies) to have significance. We need to stick to the books for our facts. Thank you for letting me ramble on... sad1199 From Meliss9900 at aol.com Mon Jul 12 04:55:41 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 00:55:41 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry uses Hermione's wand to kill Volemort? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105716 In a message dated 07/11/2004 11:46:25 PM Central Daylight Time, justcarol67 at yahoo.com writes: > P.S. As to the core of Hermione's wand, which as you said in a snipped > portion of the post, we don't know, there are of course only three > possibilities. Since Ron's is a unicorn hair and Harry's is a Phoenix > feather, I think it's a safe bet that Hermione's is a dragon's > heartstring. > > Carol > I don't think that there are only 3 possibilities. We learned in GOF that Veela Hair can be used in a wand's core. I'd venture a guess that there are more possibilties out there than just the ones we've heard about. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From juli17 at aol.com Mon Jul 12 04:13:15 2004 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 00:13:15 EDT Subject: The sorting hat seems to think Harry is a pure-blooded wizard. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105717 Becki said: > I am watching the movie too, I just love the extra scenes. Be that > as it may, the reference to the sorting hat considering putting > Harry into Slytherin was only after Harry told it not to. If Harry > had never mentioned it, would have the sorting hat? Possibly the > sorting hat has a sense of humor and was just messing with him? > Juli says: I think the Sorting Hat was messing with Harry a bit. Even though Harry said he didn't want to be in Slytherin, I believe it *is* the Sorting Hat that makes the decision, not the wearer. No doubt most students at Hogwarts have personality traits suitable to several, if not all, houses. But the hat puts them where they truly belong. Thus, even though it took the hat a while, Neville ends up in Gryffindor, not Hufflepuff, because the hat correctly surmised that courage would become Neville's greatest trait and asset (even though it was far from apparent to the observer in the beginning). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 04:57:20 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 04:57:20 -0000 Subject: Mark Evans? Never heard of him! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105718 > Aggie: > > While I'm here, can someone please explain who Mark Evans is??? > > Please forgive my ignorance!! > > Potioncat: > Mark Evans is mentioned very briefly in one of the first chapters. > He's a 10 year old who has been beaten up byDudley. The important > part (we think) is that his last name is Evans just like Harry's > Mum. Carol: Make that thought, right, Potioncat? Aggie,you'll notice a tendency here to find significance in small clues and to read more into them than JKR perhaps intended. That's what many of us (including me) did. We saw the name Mark Evans carefully dropped into OoP as "young Sirius Black" was dropped into SS/PS. The last name Evans? In Harry's neighborhood? In the same book where we learn that Lily's last name was Evans? Has to be a relative! and he's ten years old? Has to be a first-year student at Hogwarts in the next book. We were, alas, quite wrong, as JKR informed us on her website in the Polls question section of the FAQ. You can find her tongue-in-cheek response (which, after having felt properly chagrined, I now find amusing) by clicking on the paperclips at either http://www.jkrowling.com/ or http://www.jkrowling.co.uk/en/ Carol, who thinks that the people who voted for Mark Evans in the HBP poll might want to go back and change their votes From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Mon Jul 12 04:59:06 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 04:59:06 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105719 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > kyntor wrote: > > 1. Snape did use a racial slur against Lily. You can speculate that it was the first time he ever used one, but it is speculation. > > Del replies : > Let's imagine that somehow Draco lost his bodyguards, and someone > started humiliating him. Do you really think Hermione would come to > Draco's help ? I don'think so, because Draco has over and over again insulted Hermione. But Lily did come, and she even seemed surprised when Snape insulted her. > Valky: Had to jump in here because I strongly disagree. Given the same scenario Hermione would jump in in much the way Lily did, even if it were Draco, Harry would jump in even if it were Draco. They are two people with sincere courage of their convictions, just like Lily, and they WOULD do the same. We can, as much, speculate that Lily thought nothing of James and Sirius picking of Snape until it had gone too far, by her account, and had become an injustice, to her reckoning. Under that very same principle, I would entirely expect Hermione to behave the same way, and be surprised if Draco would insult her, as well, afterwards. From annemehr at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 05:00:19 2004 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 05:00:19 -0000 Subject: JKR's chills In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105720 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "susanbones2003" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aggiepaddy" > wrote: > >BIG SNIP > > 3) Hermione becomes a werewolf!! Lupin bites her during one of his > > monthly outbursts! She bayes at Lupin in the film and not in the > book > > (I think) ;-)) > > > More snipping > > > > That's all for now folks! > > > > Aggie > > Hi, > I thought that in 3 instances, some serious foreshadowing was > occuring in regard to Hermione and werewolves... > 1-When Malfoy bays during the Werewolf lecture he seems to be > somehow aiming his insult towards Hermione. > 2-Hermione says herself that a werewolf will only answer the call of > another werewolf. > 3-When she attemps to distract Lupin/werewolf and she bays and he > responds- that's a huge huge hint that she is somehow able to > communicate with him and how can that be??? > Jennifer Welcome back, Jennifer! If this is one of the things that gave Jo chills, maybe she didn't take it literally. I mean, the movie has some internal inconsistencies here, because Hermione is obviously not a werewolf. But to Jo it could have foreshadowed Hermione (or someone else for that matter, as Sirius also tried) "reaching" Lupin during a transformation. It needn't involve Hermione becoming a werewolf to be a foreshadowing. Or maybe Lupin really will bite her... Annemehr the hopelessly behind From Meliss9900 at aol.com Mon Jul 12 05:03:38 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 01:03:38 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry uses Hermione's wand to kill Volemort? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105721 In a message dated 07/11/2004 11:56:44 PM Central Daylight Time, Meliss9900 at aol.com writes: > > I don't think that there are only 3 possibilities. We learned in GOF that > Veela Hair can be used in a wand's core. I'd venture a guess that there are > > more possibilties out there than just the ones we've heard about. > > Melissa Bad form responding to my own post but I forgot about Krum's wand where something called hornbeam is mentioned in association with dragon heart string. I'm not sure of Hornbeam was the wood or if it was a duel cored wand. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From caesian at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 05:16:02 2004 From: caesian at yahoo.com (caesian) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 05:16:02 -0000 Subject: ...HRH friendship - SS/PS the obstacle course was meant for HRH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105722 Cathy wrote: > > I want to know why there were three broomsticks in the winged key > room. Three. Seems a bit >> odd, doesn't it? As though DD KNEW HRH > would be the ones to go after it. Nearly anyone >> >> else would > would be trying to get the stone would be acting alone, why would > they need three >> broomsticks. > > > vmonte responds: > > You are right Cathy, I think there is something fishy about the > entire obstacle course in SS/PS. I've said this before but I believe > that the whole course specifically geared for HRH. > Minerva's chess game -- Why did MM put this as an obstacle? Her > specialty is transfigurations!? This was definitely geared for Ron > who excels in chess. > > flying-key room -- This is obviously geared for Harry > who is great at flying. > > DD's Mirror-of-Erised -- Harry even states that DD got him > acquainted with it so that he would know how it works. > > Professor Sprout's Devil's Snare ? Hermione figures this out. > > Page 285, Snape's obstacle > > "Hermione let out a great sigh and Harry, amazed, saw that she was > smiling, the very last thing he felt like doing." > > "Brilliant," said Hermione. "This isn't magic?it's logic?a puzzle. > A lot of the greatest wizards haven't got an ounce of logic, they'd > be stuck in here forever." > > vmonte: > > It is unusual that Snape's obstacle has to do with logic, not > potions. Caesian responds: First off, the scene specifies "broomsticks", but does not suggest that onl= y 3 broomsticks are available. Multiple broomsticks might have been provided to allow other= s, e.g. the cavalry, to follow. (Although if I were Quirrell!mort, I would at least con= sider simply taking the key after it had been captured. And while I'm at it, did Dumbledore sh= ow some seeker skills in reaching Harry?) I believe many people who have analyzed the symbolism and portents of this = scene would agree that the talents Harry, Ron and Hermione together bring with them see= m amazingly well suited to the challenges they face. Each has strengths, and each of t= heir strengths are fully tested. One that hasn't been mentioned above is loyalty - Ron's exem= plary sacrifice of himself in the chess game - that seems particular to the trio, doesn't i= t. But not really required to get past the chess set, per se. The point I want to make here is that it is very unlikely that all of these= talents could be embodied by a single school age witch or wizard. I don't think it's necess= ary to conclude that the tasks are merely easy, or only geared for HRH. I think it might b= e that this array of tasks are designed to challenge a 'complete' witch or wizard, one with m= astery in many disciplines (a highly skilled individual, indead). As a team, HRH are able= to accomplish what no one of them could do alone. The trio, in their individual characteristics, each exemplifies a facet of = acheivement and virtue that, as individuals, we seek to attain. That would be another way to interpret the scene - Caesian From shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 05:33:47 2004 From: shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 05:33:47 -0000 Subject: ESE!LUPIN HELP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105723 Alright, Ive been searching for something close to 2 hours now and I havent come close to finding the original Post and thread on this. Anyone got a road map or post number for me? Jason From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 05:35:08 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 05:35:08 -0000 Subject: HBP & the Weasleys -What Muggles Notice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105724 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Shoujo wrote: > "genma99" wrote: > > From an online chat with Scholastic on World Book Day: > > Q: Are the Muggle and Magical worlds ever going to be rejoined? > > > > A: No, the breach was final, although as book six shows, the > > Muggles are noticing more and more odd happenings now that > > Voldemort's back. > Bill: > > I think that muggles noticing more weird things happening because of > Voldemort is just because them noticing the effects of the WW on > the Non-Magic World. Remember the Chocolate Frog cards? > > Dumbledore was involved in the defeat of dark wizard Grindlewald in > 1945. When did Hitler fall? I would suggest that this is evidence > that the general tone of society is affected by a Dark Wizard, or at > least something similar. Or maybe Hitler was a magician! > > Food for thought though. > > Bill Asian_lovr2: Once the Death Eaters start torturing and killing muggle for sport, and Dementors and Giants start roaming the country side killing and 'dementing' at will, it's going to be difficult for the Muggles not to notice "odd happenings". I'm not sure what you are referring to in your Chocolate Frog card reference? To your main point, that even if Voldemort&Friends don't have a direct impact on the Muggle world, I think I would agree that times of trouble and strife in the wizard world do create tension and uncertainly in the muggle world. We have no direct proof of that but I think some of the magical negative energy is subconsciously picked up by the muggles. As far as Hitler being a wizard of some type, that may or may not be, but many of the people on the Chocolate Frog Cards are real people who existed in real world, or if you prefer muggle, history. Just a thought. Steve/Asian_lovr2 From tiggersong at gmail.com Mon Jul 12 05:58:26 2004 From: tiggersong at gmail.com (tiggersong) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 05:58:26 -0000 Subject: Snape's redemptive possibilites (was re: Snape's Destiny et al) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105725 Melanie said: > For Snape to really have been a DE means that we have to come to > grips with the fact that he probably witnessed rape, torture, and > murder and did nothing to stop it, at the very least. And if he >did participate in the festivities (and let's be honest, you >probably had to kill kittens and burn down orphanages to even be a >DE candidate), chances are that when he was casting Unforgivables > around, *he meant it.* Tiggersong: Okay. So, if Snape, while he was a DE, participated in rapes, murders, tortures and other Activities for the Well Rounded Death Eater, doesn't it stand to reason that he STILL IS? I mean, if he's spying for Dumbledore by pretending to still believe the whole DE party line, doesn't that mean that he needs to participate in the Campfire Activities? Don't you think that he will have had to do something Really Horrible to prove to LV that he's really still on their side? Redemption might be an ... ongoing need for our lovely Professor Snape. Tiggersong From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 06:02:35 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 06:02:35 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105726 Mayeaux45 : > Once again, only when it comes to academics is Hermione > aggressive in her attempts to *help* the boys, not *change* them. Del replies : Isn't that the usual *excuse* for people who are trying to change others : "I'm just trying to help you" ? And I disagree that Hermione is trying to change them only as far as academics go. Just one example : Cho comes to Harry, and Ron attacks her on her Tornado badge. Then Hermione berates Ron for being such an insensitive person. Well, if she *really* accepted Ron for what he is, she would *know* that he is insensitive (we all do, that's part of his make-up), and she would *accept* that. She would maybe explain to him *calmly* that he just did a mistake, but she wouldn't go berating him like she did. Mayeaux45 : > And are you referring to Ron being in love with Hermione or vice > versa. Because even some die hard R/Hr shippers say that the love > seems to be *one-sided* (mostly on Ron's part). Del replies : Well, that *was* the starting supposition, wasn't it :-) ? That Hermione was in love with Ron too. I'm not saying she is, I'm just saying her behaviour is concordant with being in love with Ron and cannot be used to prove that she loves Harry. Mayeaux45 wrote : > JKR did say in response to the question 'Who does Hermione love...Ron > or Harry?' JKR responded "I can't believe you all haven't *worked > this one out* yet. But I'm not going to tell you because that would > spoil the arguments, which I enjoy!" (not sure if the quote is > exact but I'm 99.8% sure that it is). JKR says *worked out*...just > for the sake of argument :) I'm just going to say "if Hermione and > Ron's relationship is so obvious to some people then why would there > be anything to *work out* at all!" Del replies : The R/H shippers are not saying the relationship is obvious on both sides, they agree that it is obvious only on Ron's sides. But they do argue that the H/Hr relationship isn't obvious on neither side. In both cases anyway, the relationship would have to be worked out. Mayeaux45 wrote : > JKR is a literary GENIUS IMO and she uses her words carefully when > answering fans questions...she didn't say 'figure', or even 'obvious' > she said 'worked out'. Basically what I'm trying to say is that it's > a *toss up* at this point with the who loves who scenario. Right as > of Book 5 Harry is the ONLY one in the trio that JKR hasn't written > as having any clue or feelings of any kind having to do with anyone. Del replies : Well, considering that we can't agree on it, I'd say that Hermione is another one whose feelings are not obvious. Mayeaux45 wrote : > Cho was pretty much a no-go as soon as she started talking badly > about Hermione when her and Harry were talking in the hallway. Del replies : Will it surprise you that I disagree :-) ? Cho was horribly jealous, there's nothing wrong with that. If Harry had understood what was going on and had reassured her accordingly, she would probably have stopped talking about Hermione in that way. Jealousy, especially when it is so rightfully founded, is not necessarily an obstacle. And if H/Hr is indeed the way to go, then Cho was even *justified* in being jealous ! Del, who's not a R/H shipper, but thinks it would be too unfair if Hermione ended up with Harry... unless Ron finds another love interest *first* ! From theadimail at yahoo.co.in Mon Jul 12 06:13:36 2004 From: theadimail at yahoo.co.in (theadimail) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 06:13:36 -0000 Subject: Return from the Underworld in Ancient Mythology (Re: Sirius Black) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105727 > > mhbobbin wrote: > > There have been many excellent comments on this ancient myth- related > > theory. My personal take on it is that in each case of returning from > > the Underworld in Classic Mythology, there is some negotiation and > > then some condition put upon the event. So even > in Ancient > > Mythology there?s more to it than knowing where the entrance is and > > knowing how to get past the giant three headed dog.(Just where is > > Fluffy these days?) No doubt JKR will devise her own twists on the > > rules should she pursue a story line like this. > > Carol responds: > As one who is quite happy to leave Sirius as he is and get on with the > story, I may be a bit prejudiced here. But I think it's quite possible > that we've already had our symbolic journey into the "underworld," > complete with a three-headed dog bought from a "Greek chappie" > (significance, anyone?) in Book 1. (BTW, that's another place where > the filmmakers messed up, changing the nationality of the "chappie.") adi: Well, that track is already used in OOTP. In every epic, the hero is taken midway to the underworld by a prophetess where he gets to meet his lost parent and gets to know rest of his destiny. The entire plot of OOTP was based on this element. Harry went to the underworld, here, the department of mysteries which is underground and that veil thing and finds the prophecy. The prophetess element was played by Luna and Sybill combined. Notice the trick on their names. A sybil is a prophetess and the particular sybil who took Aeneas to underground was Deiphobe or in other words Luna as both are related to the moon. The lost parent part was played a bit before when Harry gets to see how his parents were like in thier infancy and a bit when Sirius lost his life. I think the senior Potter's track will be played a bit longer but Sirius's chapter is closed. Maybe we should read the epics again, Odyssey and Aeneid, to guess what happens after the undeground travel. Although I liked the suggestion that the original blood prince was Dracula. adi From strawberry at jamm.com Mon Jul 12 06:37:20 2004 From: strawberry at jamm.com (Jenni A.M. Merrifield) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 06:37:20 -0000 Subject: The sorting hat seems to think Harry is a pure-blooded wizard. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105728 > Becki's says; > > I am watching the movie too, I just love the extra scenes. Yeah, me too - I'd seen them before, from the DVD set, but it was really nice to see them all "in situ". :-) [snip] > Another point to your other point of the poem is that Tom Riddle > was most deffinatly a half-blood and not only was he in Slytherin, > he was the heir... Yeah, I saw another thread where someone was pointing out how difficult school would have been for Tom Riddle at first, being in Slytherin as a poor, half-blood when the *majority* were wealthy pure-bloods and I immediately went "D'oh! I forgot about that!" [OT: Gadfly! It is hard to catch up after missing a couple of days. Each time I've get a chance to sit down and play "catch up" another 1000 or so messages have come in... I'm getting much more picky about which subject lines I'll look into...] > Possibly Slytherin had no choice if he was the only one left? > Haven't figured that one out yet, quite a bit of contradictions > going around on that one. That is certainly a possibility, but, in retrospect, I think that the sorting hat will willingly put anyone with at least some Wizarding blood and appropriate traits into Slytherin, but would probably never put someone with NO Wizarding blood (that is, a muggle-born like Hermione) in Slytherin no matter how much of the typical slytherin traits he or she might have. Jenni (Who totally enjoyed watching the extended version of HP:SS twice in a row) From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Jul 12 06:37:52 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 06:37:52 -0000 Subject: Could Mrs. Lovegood be....Florence? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105729 I'm suspicious when JKR doesn't give first names, specifically with women characters. Case in point is the mysterious Mrs. Lestange in GOF, who later turns out to be a crucial character. Mrs. Crouch is another mystery, but I think JKR did that for characterization, portraying her as so passive compared to Mr. Crouch that she doesn't even warrant a first name. So now I'm thinking Florence was re-introduced in OOTP, in a form we wouldn't recognize immediately, as Luna's mom. The age would be about right, Neri figured out in post #105642 that Florence was probably two years older than the Maruaders, and thus could have followed a similar time-line as the Potters for getting married, having Luna, etc. Now, how this might be significant to the story.... Maybe Luna's real father is Lupin, and Mr. Lovegood is Luna's step- father. Say Florence Lovegood left Lupin during the First War because she suspected he was a spy, then quickly discovered she was pregnant. Not wanting Luna to find out her father was a traitorous spy, she took Lovegood's name for both of them after re-marrying. But Remus was her first love and spy or no, she named her daughter Luna after him. By the time she discovers Remus isn't a spy, he's long gone & teaching in another country and she's married to Mr. Lovegood. Another thought is Florence Lovegood worked with Lily at the DOM and was involved in researching the protection for Harry at Godric's Hollow. Later, experiments on the power of loving sacrifice ended in her death. Then there's the much-speculated Snape connection: if Snape was the one Florence was kissing behind the greenhouse, and she later spurned him to marry Mr. Lovegood, this might have sent Snape over the Dark-Arts edge into Voldemort's camp. Any other wild speculation on this topic?!? Jen, who doesn't think JKR would bother creating the mysterious Florence if she wasn't going to be important later on. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 06:50:18 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 06:50:18 -0000 Subject: GoF Reduction Discussion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105730 wrote: [Actually, she didn't] If they are going to present GoF as one movie, they'll have a lot of cutting to do. Obviously the graveyard scene will be included. The Triwizard tournament will have to be included, but I'm not sure all of the tasks will be in there--personally I'm voting for the lake task to be cut. > Carol wrote: I hope the second task *isn't* cut. What can we cut instead? Most of the Quidditch World Cup scene > aj wrote: > Actually, the Second Task is already being filmed; they did the maze > and Harry with Cho previously; and they certainly are showing at > least the Weasley's tent at the World Cup. Dan Radcliffe said the > script was 'brilliant' and got the essentials. I'm wondering how > they'll fit any class lessons in, but apparently all these major > parts are still in. Just no Dursleys. Now I will sneak off and try > not to make this too film related, justifying it as key to canon via > what scenes aren't deleted... Carol again: For the record, the words at the top of this post belong to rzl46 (MaggieB), not to me. I was actually wondiering for a moment if I was arguing against my own position here. Possibly the attribution in my (longish) post was unclear and confused you. If so, please accept my apologies. I just want to clarify that I *do* think the second task is an essential part of the film and am glad to hear that it's definitely being filmed. BTW, I noted on the Floo Network today that Amos Diggory has been cast, so we may have the portkey scene and will almost certainly have the scene where Amos confronts Winky and accuses her of casting the Dark Mark. (In the book he has two other scenes, one just before and one after the last task. Whether those will be kept I can't guess.) Carol From paul_terzis at yahoo.gr Mon Jul 12 07:11:41 2004 From: paul_terzis at yahoo.gr (paul_terzis) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 07:11:41 -0000 Subject: just a couple of thoughts about Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105731 > > heynorty wrote: > > Another thing, I noticed--is how little Ron and Harry ever talk > about > > girls. I mean really talk about girls, and not asking one or other > > where Hermione is. He is different from his peer group in that > regard > > as well. > > Geoff wrote: > I wouldn't agree. Having just been away with two youth weekends from > my church, eavesdropping on the boys' conversation has found it to be > mainly football, Playstations and other guy things. And these are 13- > 15 year olds, same sort of age range as we've seen Harry go through. It is not difficult to understand HP. He is an introvert character due to his abused upbringing from the Dursleys. Such characters are very difficult to confide their secrets even to their best friends. Instead they can talk more easily about trivial and daily topics. Cheers, Paul From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 07:12:02 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 07:12:02 -0000 Subject: Wands was:Re: CoS clues to Books 6 & 7 analysis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105732 Julie wrote: I figure somehow there may have been a scuffle, and he couldn't reach his own wand, and ended up grabbing Lily's. So what do you think? If hers was excellent for charm work, there's no reason she wouldn't charm it to protect her kids? "Childproofing" comes to mind as well. :) Carol responds: At the risk of repeating what's already been said, I'm sure that Lily was unarmed--otherwise she would have fought LV as James did instead of offering hersllf as a sacrifice. Also, we know that LV used his own wand to AK James and Lily because they both came out of his wand in the "Priori Incantantem" chapter in Gof. However, I agree that Lily's wand being excellent for charm work is important. IMO (and I've argued this before but don't have time to look up the posts now), it's quite likely that she placed a protective charm on Harry *before* Godric's Hollow as part of the "ancient magic" activated by her sacrifice. (IMO, she knew that if the Fidelius Charm failed, she would have to die.) As I see it, her spell caused the scar to appear when the AK hit Harry. The scar acted as a shield, which deflected the AK onto Voldemort. It wasn't wholly effective, because some of LV's powers were deflected onto Harry, but the spell saved his life--because she died first. If Harry had been AK'd while she was still alive, the charm would not have worked. That's why she was so insistent, so desperate, for Voldemort to kill her first. It must have been a very complicated spell that only a skilled witch or wizard, particularly one who was good with charms, could cast. I also think that Lily cast the Fidelius Charm that made Peter the Secret Keeper. Who else could have done it? So while I definitely don't think that Voldemort used Lily's wand, I do think that her wand, or rather her skill with charms, will play a very important part in our understanding of the events at Godric's Hollow. Carol P.S. I don't think you can cast a spell on your own wand. Mr. Weasley says there's no such thing as a "self-spelling wand." I think it's in PoA but I could be wrong. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 07:19:15 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 07:19:15 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105733 Valky asked : > Are you sure that you are not too quickly dismissing Sirius' and > Lupin's adult statement, to Harry, that Snape was indeed dangerous? Del replies : No I'm not. But I'm saying that a) they probably exagerrated, and b) James and Sirius were just as dangerous as Snape was. Maybe they wouldn't use the same tools as Snape would, but I DO believe that they could be every bit as dangerous as Snape if they chose to. So I just don't buy your theory that by attacking Snape, James was putting himself in big danger, sorry :-) Especially not by attacking him in front of half the school. Valky wrote : > So I separate the baiting from the wand match. Because once the wands > are out Snape is deadly serious, the situation becomes serious. The > baiting is a crime by James. But when Snape has his wand in his hand > the one sidedness ends. He will only attack James, and it will not be > pretty if he wins. Del replies : Yes... Except that Snape's wand was never *truly* out to start with ! Canon says that "his wand was halfway into the air" when James Disarmed him. And if James had not been interrupted by Lily, Snape would *never* have been able to get his wand back until James decided he was over with the fight. It was one-sided all the way and would have stayed that way without Lily. And as a matter of fact, the situation as it was between Lily arrived was NOT "deadly serious" : it was in fact *lots of fun* for James and Sirius, and they were in *absolutely no danger*. Valky wrote : > The real difference is that neither Harry nor Draco are practicing > the kind of magic that Snape WAS as a young man. Del replies : Two things. First, we STILL don't know WHAT exactly Snape was practicing. The Marauders told us that he was deep in Dark Magic and knew more curses than most 7th-years, but that doesn't mean *anything*. They don't give us *details*, they don't tell us *what* it was Snape was doing or had learned that was so horrible. After all, Harry is teaching the DA to fight in their *fifth* year, so one could argue that maybe all those students would not even have been able to properly *Disarm* their opponent by the time they got in 7th year, if Harry had not been there to teach them ! If *that* is the kind of curses Snape knew, well, I don't see that it was so horrible. Second : Draco's family *is* deep into Dark Arts, so one could argue that Draco himself was knee-deep into the Dark Arts when he arrived to Hogwarts. In CoS, he did know how to use the Serpensortia curse, and I doubt just knowing the incantation is enough to make the curse work. And still, Harry doesn't consider Draco a deadly opponent just because of his Dark Arts connections. Valky wrote : > Draco isn't dangerous in the books so far. And as such, since we > compare James with him, it leads to the conclusion that neither was > James. But, we have canon, that Snape was. Del replies : Our only canon that Snape was dangerous is that the Marauders said so. So basically it's a matter of them telling Harry : I can tell you that Snape was dangerous because I say so. Not exactly convincing IMO. And Draco isn't dangerous because he's a *coward*, he's always hiding behind Crabbe and Goyle. Valky wrote : > I am here to prove that J and S are OK, really. That we miss the > point with the pensieve scene, that the brave and noble James is > there, just harder to see. Del replies : You still haven't convinced me, you know :-) ? I see a James who is coward enough to let his buddy come and protect him during a fight that he purposefully and one-sidedly picked (and I don't care about the background story : Snape was not doing anything to James at that time, that's the only thing that matters to me). And I see a James that won't respect another human being's basic dignity by threatening to take off his underwear, and maybe even doing it. I don't see the "brave and noble James" AT ALL ! Valky asked : > If James had been a second slower in drawing out his own wand, what > would have happened do you think? Would Snape have thrown the stupefy > or impedimenta, maybe the expelliarmus hmmm? Del replies : You're making two major assumptions with *no proof* here, Valky :-) No good, no good, won't convince me with that :-) First, you're assuming that James drew his wand when Snape drew his. I refute that by saying that you have no canon proof. And I go even further by saying that since James was *obviously* trying to pick a fight with Snape, it was only *logical* that he would *already* have his own wand out. Neither of us have canon to support our idea, but at least I have *logic* on my side ;-P And of course you also assume that Snape would have used some nasty curse straight away. No proof, no proof at all, says I !! I, Del, wrote : > > And honestly, I don't see anything that dangerous in a curse that > > opens a gash in a cheek. A fist can open your lip or break any > > part of your body : just as dangerous. Valky answered : > What if..... Del, Snape was aiming at James throat. Del replies : OI, Valky :-) *Another* supposition ? You're losing your touch ! Valky wrote : > I am sure Snape thinks Sirius is a sadist in this case because he is > the one that impedimentas him. Del replies : In my idea, if anyone is a sadist in Snape's mind, it's James. Impedimenta is a curse commonly used in duelling, it doesn't imply a nasty mind or intention. It's the equivalent of making your adversary fall in a fist fight. Scourgify, on the other hand, is a *cleaning* spell that is *not* supposed to be used on a human being. The simple fact of using it on someone is an insult : it means that the user is reviling his opponent to the level of a dirty object. Valky wrote : > And that I am pretty sure Snape thinks he's more dangerous than both > of them he's just frustrated he can't show it. > He does threaten them with a manner that speaks of someone who > considers himself dangerous. Del replies : Draco does that all the time ! He's even become a bit of a joke by the end of OoP, because of it :-) And still Harry doesn't consider him the least bit dangerous, does he ? Valky wrote : > But James did not attack Snape when he was not prepared. They went > for their wands at the same time. Haven't you seen any old westerns > lately? Del replies : Nope :-) (I'm not the western type) However I *have* re-read the Pensieve scene several times recently, and I didn't see that James and Snape drew their wands together. As I said earlier, Logic has it that James would *already* have had his wand out. And I maintain that Snape was not prepared. Valky wrote : > Well yeah in way he did. The way I read the story here was that > this was a longstanding challenge that has never been resolved. Del replies : Just like between Harry and Draco. And yet we never see either of them just coming and hexing the other one without a reason, no matter how feeble. You know Valky, even if James was 100 percent sure that Snape would hex him straight away, he still had NO RIGHT to do what he did. He basically pusnished Snape because of what he (James) thought Snape *would* do. That's simply not fair. You can't punish people because of what *you think* they will do, you have to wait and see if they will do it, and *then* you can punish them. In order to be *justified* in mistreating Snape the way he did, James should have let Snape hex him first. Then Sirius would have Disarmed Snape, and they would have waited together for James to recover. Then Sirius would have handed Snape his wand back, he would have stepped away from the duel and not intervened anymore (one-on-one), and James and Snape would have had a real, fair, duel. Valky wrote : > LOL I absolutely agree Sirius DID want to FORCE him to realise Dark > Arts were no good. Sirius was 15 years old. He's not Dumbledore. Del replies : Does that mean that Huntergreen was right, and we don't know of anybody who tried to *teach* Snape that the Dark Arts were not the right way to go ? Valky wrote : > Who said I was saying he will always be evil old Snape? > We KNOW he was evil then and changed his ways to now. > Are you in denial of that Del? Del replies : Hey, *I* am not the one in denial here :-) *You* are the one who don't want to see that James was a real berk in the Pensieve scene, with not a single trace of nobility :-) I mean, honestly ! He even tried to *force* Lily to go out with him ! Del, who's not in denial, no she's not, she denies it, yes she does... From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 07:23:45 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 07:23:45 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105734 Alla wrote : > Unless we learn that Snape was under Imperium curse, he had NO > BUSINESS going into Shack, absolutely NONE. > > > He was desperate to learn Lupin's secret to have them all expelled? > > Well, he got more than he bargained for. No, he did not deserve to be > eaten by Werewolf, but if he went into Shack of his own free will, he > was WRONG in doing so. Del replies : I agree, I agree. But I can't help thinking that if Harry kept to his own business, the books would be very dull and boring indeed... Del From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 07:59:16 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 07:59:16 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105736 Valky wrote : > It was a Dark Arts Curse, I will take that bet with anyone who > dares..... the precise 'case in point' to show that Snape was > serious in battle with James, deadly serious. > > > Del frowns and calls for a truce. She's just realised that this > > particular argument won't get anywhere because... > > "You know, Valky, we still haven't got a definition of what > > constitutes Dark Magic." > > The Fox looks startled :"Why, it's obvious, isn't it ? Anything > Snape uses at that time IS Dark Magic, that was his preferred style > then, right?" ;D Del snorts with laughter : "You know, Valky, I studied Physics in University, which means that I had to do a good deal of Maths, which are a thoroughly logical field where you have to justify every single deduction you make. An argument like yours would have been shot down in no time : Snape liked Dark Magic, so he would preferably use Dark Magic, so whatever he used had to be Dark Magic. It's so full of holes that it would probably give a heart attack to some Maths teachers :-)" > > Then Del sighs : > > "Well, let's agree to disagree then, because in my mind he was > > entitled to use whatever means he could. He had been attacked for > > no reason, and not given a proper chance to defend himself. > > Fox twirls her wand between her fingers her brow furrows: > "Why do you use 'defend' as a Snape operative in that sentence? It > doesn't fit with all his other actions in the memory or anywhere > else, for that matter. Why do you think he would merely have > defended himself?" > > Del's knuckles clamp tighter around her wand as the Fox continues to speak, and there's a defnite irritated edge in her voice as she interrupts Valky : "Because Snape had been *attacked*, which means that whatever he did next would be legally considered as defense." I, Del, wrote : > > I don't *care* if James was upset or whatever. In my opinion, > > anyone willing to use such methods, whatever the circumstances, is > > not noble at heart. Being willing to humiliate someone that > > thoroughly is the antithesis of nobility in my idea. Valky answered : > Darn it Del! Excellent point. My only argument is that it isn't > really relevant to my mention of nobility in James because I > absolutely believe he abandoned all sense of being right or good the > moment he felt the humiliation of Lily's rejection. > Which is why I soooo *totally didn't* want to be made to argue this > in this context. Del replies : Duh ? So it went something like : The girl I fancy has just opposed and refused me in public, so now I'm really pissed off, so I'll just thoroughly humiliate my favourite adversary, just to calm myself down ? But that's horrible, Valky ! Moreover, I believe that nobility is a character trait : it doesn't just disappear because one is upset. Quite the contrary in fact : nobility is one of those qualities that are most remarkable because they express themselves in conditions when you would not expect them. Nobility is *exactly the opposite* of picking up a fight for no reason, or taking your own frustration on someone else. Valky wrote, about Lily saying that Snape was no better than James : > Ok this is one of those 'things you don't mean, but do mean' things. > 1. Lily was furious! You say things you don't mean when your > furious. (It's good enough for those people on the list who use it > to claim that Snape wasn't really a racist in the scene :p) Del replies : I disagree with both beliefs. Snape uttered a racist statement, which indicates to me that he held racist beliefs. And Lily stated that she found James no better than Snape *and* she even explained why, which indicates to me that she despised James just as much as Snape. I stick to the facts :-) (Must be the Physics : try telling a Physics teacher "well yes, the particle went this way, but honestly I'm sure it meant to go *that* way instead." LOL !) Valky wrote : > 2. Sirius and Lupin floo conversation..... "Lily never hated James" > I put a little more weight on this statement obviously than you do. > (btw how on earth did Sirius' words become the ones we can question? > Why is he a liar? Did someone just suppose he could be lying and > then a bunch of people ran away with it? I, for one, will not be > throwing out what Sirius says as canon.) Del replies : I believe that Lily *despised* James at the time of the Pensieve scene, not that she hated him. And I don't think she hated Snape either, for that matter. And I don't think Sirius would outright lie. But James was his best friend, he's dead, Snape is not, and all those things happened years and years ago. I would be very surprised if he didn't do a bit of rewriting History. Not changing things altogether, but modifying details and motives and the general atmosphere. We all do, why not Sirius ? Valky wrote : > For now, I am simply not convinced that James needed to change all > that drastically. Del replies : Lily was, and she knew James better than you do ;-P Del From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 08:41:54 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 08:41:54 -0000 Subject: Harry uses Hermione's wand to kill Volemort? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105737 Carol wrote : > As to the core of Hermione's wand, which as you said in a snipped > portion of the post, we don't know, there are of course only three > possibilities. Since Ron's is a unicorn hair and Harry's is a Phoenix > feather, I think it's a safe bet that Hermione's is a dragon's > heartstring. Del replies : Oh, but wouldn't it so much more fun of it was ze 'air of a Veela ? ;-) Seriously though, there might be other possibilities for wand core materials, that we haven't heard of yet because they are much rarer. Del From paul_terzis at yahoo.gr Mon Jul 12 09:03:06 2004 From: paul_terzis at yahoo.gr (paul_terzis) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:03:06 -0000 Subject: R & H - More in common than meets the eye (was Hermione's reaction) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105738 > > > aboutthe1910s wrote: > I think my biggest issue with Harry and Hermione getting together is > the fact that, while we can argue all night about who, if anyone, > Hermione is attracted to, Ron clearly is attracted to Hermione. Now > Ron has already had some jealousy issues with Harry, which came to a > boiling point in GoF, but, while Ron has realized that these issues > are not worth not being friends with Harry over, I don't think Ron has > necessarily gotten entirely over them. > > If Harry and Hermione get together, I think it would be just too cruel > --on both JK's part and Harry's. I wouldn't blame Ron a bit for being > hideously pissed off at Harry, and I would hope that both Harry and JK > value the friendship between Harry and Ron more than that. Even if Ron > could get over it, it would destroy the balance in their relationship-- > Harry is the centerpiece in their relationship as far as he is the leader > and they are his sidekicks. If Hermione becomes something more than Ron > to Harry, it might not make Ron mean less absolutely speaking, but it > will relatively. Ron just doesn't deserve to be made to feel any more > secondary and overlookable than he already has. > > Besides, Ron is capable of standing up to Hermione's bossiness in a > way that Harry has never prooved himself capable--he's too passive for > Hermione. I imagine that Harry would be something of whipped puppy in > a more than friends relationship with Hermione. > > a I can't believe my eyes. Your post has two main points: 1) In the H/Hr scenario Ron character is certainly mistreated from JKR and HP. reply: In love and war there are no restraints. If I were HP and I had found my soulmate, named Hr, I would fight for her love even with the devil himself. Of course in this situation where all are best friends the best working scenario is the direct confrontation. Face to face all three of them until the final resolution of the case. But to expect HP to back down and to turn his back to happiness which is his only desire throughout his hard life, without a fight is out of the question. This is also an insult to Ron character because he wins Hr only because HP backs down and not because he is better than HP in the eyes of Hr. 2) HP is a weak, subservient and without will person. reply:Do you honestly believe that? HP chooses carefully his battles with Hr. If he doesn't have any interest to the subject in matter he remains cool and calm but when he is resolved to do something, I think he can put the fear of God to the bossy Hr. Cheers, Paul From mauranen at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 09:13:58 2004 From: mauranen at yahoo.com (jekatiska) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:13:58 -0000 Subject: Return from the Underworld in Ancient Mythology (Re: Sirius Black) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105739 > mhbobbin writes: > Nearly Headless Nick does say that Sirius would go on etc.. But does > he speak from true knowledge of Sirius? feelings?he hasn?t had contact > with Sirius-- or does he speak from his own feelings of what Sirius > would do if faced with the same dilemma as Nick? I don?t think Nick > has any special knowledge of Sirius?s feelings here, only his own > knowledge of death. Jekatiska's thoughts: Nearly Headless Nick would know something of Sirius, having been around when he was ar Hogwarts, too. So he would know Sirius' character well enough to assume that he would not choose a half-life as a ghost. Most people don't choose that way, and Nick would also know something of the characteristics of the people who do, knowing so many of them. He's also been dead for over 400 years, which, I imagine, would give him some time to get to know how the human mind works. After all, he would have seen generations of people making the same mistakes, the same assumptions, the same conclusions, each of them thinking they are new. How much do ghosts actually know? Will they yet have an important role? Jekatiska From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 04:41:22 2004 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 04:41:22 -0000 Subject: Snape and the meaning of courage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105740 June wrote: > Snape is one of those folks you're always going to wonder about. My > question is, where did the wimpy teen get the how-with-all to become > so menacing? I don't think being a death-eater is for sissies, unless > you're Wormtail. Any thoughts on that one? Carol responded: > My thought on this is that, first, he must have developed a bit > physically, going from being skinny at fifteen to thin and wiry as he > reached eighteen or twenty. More important, I think he deliberately > cultivated an image, possibly in direct response to the Pensieve > incident and the Prank, that made him less of a geeky little oddball > and more formidable, more clearly someone who should not be crossed > without the risk of embarrassment or worse. He probably developed a > more upright posture, a sweeping walk, an intimidating stare, a > sarcastic manner, all as defenses against the Jameses and Siriuses of > the world. Whether he became a Death Eater before or after he > developed this persona I can't say, but he certainly has it in his > thirties as Potions Master. The ability to control his anger (most of > the time) and possibly occlumency, which I think he uses to hide his > emotions even when he's not facing Voldemort, may be part of this same > carefully cultivated personality. Katie: Okay. What follows is a rambling and decidedly subjective post. If you all have any thoughts on these subjects, I'd love to hear them. What I find interesting about June's comment (above) is that it presumes a certain agreement with the idea that young Snape *is* wimpy. I don't think that he is. But I really dislike the whole notion of "wimpiness", as opposed to cowardice, which I consider to be a truly negative trait. Here's how I'd define the two concepts, by the way, and this is very, very subjective: -Wimpiness: (borrowing a bit from another poster here) Cringing, whining, emotionality, timidity. To use an oft-despised sexist phrase, "acting like a girl." -Cowardice: The willingness to give up one's principles, friends, etc., in the face of danger. Ignobility due to an instinct for self- preservation. Snape subscribes to a certain world view shared by many people (though not by most of the HP characters), namely, the idea of "strong" and "weak" (inferior) people, and all that goes along with that. It is well summed up in Snape's explanation of what he considers to be "weak": "Fools who wear their hearts proudly on their sleeves, who cannot control their emotions, who wallow in sad memories and allow themselves to be provoked this easily..." (I'd say it sounds like Snape is describing Sirius. I don't think Snape fans and Sirius fans are opposing groups, but I DO think that Snape and Sirius represent opposites in many ways.) The question is, do you, as the reader, agree with Snape? I certainly don't. I think Snape's coldness is one of his worst qualities. And of course, Snape himself frequently fails to live up to his standards (though who would want to??) This persona Snape's cultivated since his Hogwarts years *is*, I think, simply a persona. It doesn't affect his deeper self, and has nothing really to do with whether he's a coward or not, only whether he allows others to perceive him as one. I'm sure that Snape's idea of courage has more to do with preservation of one's image of self- control and superiority above all else. That's not my idea of courage (though I'm sure there are some out there who would disagree with me.) I think a few posters have asked "Why was Neville sorted into Gryffindor, not Hufflepuff?" Put simply, I don't think real courage has *any*thing to do with outward appearance and daily behavior. I think it has much more to do with inner, personal strength, something I think Neville possesses a great deal of. (This is *SO* not valued enough at Hogwarts, except when it's in the form of Harry. Dumbledore tosses off a couple of points to Neville in PS/SS, and that's about all the public recognition he ever gets. Argh. But that's another post altogether.) Neville's bravery regarding his parents-- as well as his friends-- in particular amazes me. I think Neville would fight to the death to defend his parents' honor. So... yeah. This is all related, of course, to Gryffindor and the sorting process. (We get an awfully "Gryffindor-centric" view of Hogwarts in the books-- I wonder if the school is really biased this way, or if that's just because the books are from Harry's viewpoint. Or JKR's, for that matter.) Really, which house would most people want to be sorted into? Hopefully that all made a little bit of sense... -Katie From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Mon Jul 12 05:40:15 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 12 Jul 2004 05:40:15 -0000 Subject: Who is berk and Slytherin reputation Message-ID: <20040712054015.25024.qmail@webmail10.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105741 > >> Siriusly Snapey Susan Amey: >> SSSusan: >> That is *NOT* my quote, above your response--I'd just like to >> clarify that. Amey: Really sorry to mis-quote you, and also sorry to the other person whose words I put into your mouth (er... your quill.. er...your keyboeard...):D. I was just having a play of words on that *Good DE* part, and I think I mis-copied some part of the mail. >> Adan: >> have a hard time picturing Lucius sitting on his bed scribbling >> away in the diary. Just not a very manly thing. I've always thought >> diaries were rather a "girly" thing, and therefore see how giving the >> diary specifically to Ginny could have been the plan because there >> was a chance that she would use it. Give it to Ron and I wonder if >> it'd even have made it to Hogwarts. I see it thrown in the back of >> his closet. Amey: Yes, sure. Remember what Ron says anout the diary? "Tom got a diary for christmas and couldn't bother writing it" (Sorry, not exact quote). This shows a typical boy's POV towards a diary. I am sure TR wouldn't have bothered writing a diary had it not been the way to instruct his succcessor. >> Del, who wonders why it took so long for the Hat to sort Neville. Amey: Sorting hat to Neville: "Let's see. What have we here? You are not exceptionally bright (Ravenclaw out). Wouldn't do anything to gain what you want, zero cunning (Slytherin out). Courage I see some, hidden somewhere deep down. Plenty of Loyalty too... I think its Hufflepuff for you... not Hufflepuff you say, ok then it better be Gryffindor" ;D >> Del replies : >> In my book, a fair duel is not a duel where 2 people take turn >> attacking a third one. Even if James and Sirius never attacked at the >> same time, they still forced Snape to keep an eye on both of them at >> the same time, to split his attention between the two of them, and to >> guess who was going to attack next. I call that 2-on-1 just like I >> call Malfoy attacking Harry with the help of Crabbe and Goyle 3-on-1. >> If what James and Sirius did is OK, then Draco and his buddies don't >> do anything wrong either.' Amey: But with Crabbe and Goyle, you have to keep an eye on their fists, not their wands, which makes it a different proposition. And also, they tend to attack together, it's not like Draco puts a spell and C&G wait on the lines. Draco doesn't have that daring. :D I am not defending what they did at that time, what I am again saying is a scene in Penseive (which might be subjective for all we know) is not an evidence on which you can brand somebody. We have to have some other instances, and most important, the reason behind the rivalry before we say who is berk and who is not. In this instance, it's James who is a berk, I agree (re-agree???) >> Del replies : >> But *why* should he have chosen another House ?? Slytherin is NOT a >> bad House, and it was even less so at the time. We know NOW that many >> DEs were former Slytherins, but when Snape got to Hogwarts, the VWI >> was barely starting, and Slytherin House was not yet tainted with the >> Dark Mark of the DEs. Amey: Yes, but still it was a house founded by *Pureblood-mania*c. Also, people there were obsessed with Dark Arts, even if we have only a few examples. So, I think, it would have a bad enough reputation even discounting DEs. Amey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From adanabbett at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 04:46:48 2004 From: adanabbett at yahoo.com (Adan) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 04:46:48 -0000 Subject: Harry uses Hermione's wand to kill Volemort? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105742 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > P.S. As to the core of Hermione's wand, which as you said in a snipped > portion of the post, we don't know, there are of course only three > possibilities. Since Ron's is a unicorn hair and Harry's is a Phoenix > feather, I think it's a safe bet that Hermione's is a dragon's > heartstring. > > Carol I remember the three things being thrown out as the possibilities as well, but in GoF isn't Fleur Delacour's wand core her (grandmother's) veela hair? So it was obviously a wand made specifically for her, but that might mean there are many possibilities. My question is wondering whether the wand core, of a wand chosen specifically for the witch/wizard, shows any kind of compatibility with other wizards... man, that's just not clear. What I mean is, would someone with a dragon heartstring (like Krum) be better suited to someone else with a dragon heartstring (like the presupposed Hermione)? Or would it be like in magnets, and repel? Just a wild hair... Adan, not knowing where I'm going with that last bit which isn't all that unusual, really... From sad1199 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 05:42:12 2004 From: sad1199 at yahoo.com (sad1199) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 05:42:12 -0000 Subject: Ron as prefect? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105743 I have a question that has probably already been posted. If so, please direct me... Question is, what qualities does Ron possess to make him a prefect? Unless Dumbledore chose him to help protect Harry in the future, I would think that his ordinary grades and lack of leadership would eliminate him from the process. One would think Seamus or Dean would be better prefect material than Ron. sad1199 From briggielockyer at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 06:05:16 2004 From: briggielockyer at yahoo.com (Brigitte Holder) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 23:05:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040712060516.79403.qmail@web54008.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105744 Alla: OK, then let's go back to my original question. What cover Snape has to maintain by being nasty to Harry? If Voldemort want Snape for his potion making skills, Voldemort will still want Snape to pretend that he is loyal to Dumbledore. How is being nasty to Harry shows to Voldemort that Snape is loyal to Dumbledore? Brigitte: IMO, Snape's actions towards Harry have nothing to do with loyalty to DD or LV or to maintaining a cover. In the first four books LV has not come back into a position to have power. LV didn't get the stone in the PS/SS, It was TR's memory not the actual LV in CoS, and he wasn't even in the PoA everyone just thought that Sirius was connected to him. It is not until the GoF that LV is back and even then, it is not until the end of book that he has reclaimed his power to recall the DEs. So up until this point who does Snape have to be loyal to/ or what cover to keep up? Yes DD gave him a job and stood up for him during his trial, but DD knows Snapes history with James and understands why Snape gives Harry such a hard time. DD even explains most of this to Harry. If Snape was to change his behavior towards Harry after LV returns how fishy would that look to either side? Brigitte From juli17 at aol.com Mon Jul 12 06:07:13 2004 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 02:07:13 EDT Subject: Severus Snape's character Message-ID: <1e9.24d386e8.2e238491@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105745 I'm not going to quote anyone, since there are so many posts on this subject(!), but I do have a few thoughts regarding Severus Snape's character and his interactions with other characters. So, in no particular order: 1. Evil, Dark, Abusive, or just Not Nice? I've seen all these applied to Snape. It seems everyone agrees that Snape is often mean, petty and vindictive, i.e., he is not nice. It's also clear that he was once "dark" in the sense that he was a Death Eater, doing Dark magic for Voldemort. Now, if we take Dumbeldore's judgment at face value, Snape is no longer Dark. He could still return to his Dark ways. I doubt he will, but we won't know for sure until the series concludes. As for abusive, there are different levels of abuse. Yes, Snape practices some of them, namely verbal/emotional abuse, mainly with certain Gryffindors he dislikes, including Harry, Hermoine, and Neville. But is he abusive enough to be criminally charged? In our world, I doubt it (though he'd most likely be fired from his teaching position). In the WW, where life seems a lot more uncertain and dangerous, I think not. There are too many far more unpleasant things waiting to be faced by the students than one mean teacher, especially with Voldemort back. And while some of the students will probably remember Snape as their most despised teacher years after they've left Hogwarts, I don't think what he does will have a lasting negative effect on any student's self-esteem, not even Neville's. What about evil? To me, evil is a very strong term, like hate. It's as far as you can go, and usually it's beyond redemption. The Snape we see teaching at Hogwarts is not a nice man. He was once Dark, and could possibly become so again. He's occasionally downright abusive to students. But evil? I don't think so. Umbridge is evil. Snape is not. We know he's put his life on the line to spy on Voldemort for Dumbledore. Someone also mentioned whether Snape would lay down his life for Harry. I was going to say that Snape would do so, not *for* Harry, but because he is dedicated to defeating Voldemort, and if saving Harry is what it takes, so be it. But I also think Snape would lay down his life for any of his students. He takes his responsibility for their safety seriously, whether they are Slytherin or Gryffindors. It's in that sense that some have said Snape has a moral compass, and I agree. Of course, that doesn't mean Snape is a good person. I don't think most people--or wizards--are either "good" or "evil." There is space inbetween (where most of us probably dwell), and Snape definitely dwells in that area--as does James, Sirius, and even Harry. Good does not always equate with nice (I think Lupin is indisputably nice, but at least during the Pensieve scene he wasn't good, any more than Germans who looked the other way while Jews were being forced out of their homes were good, even if they could say they didn't actually do anything "wrong"). Same with mean and evil. The two don't always equate. Oh, and as for whether Snape *was* evil or has done evil things in the past, I don't know the answer to that. He was a DE, but we don't know for how long (do we?), so we don't know how much opportunity he had to act, or if he ever killed anyone. He could have found a way to be involved without actually going out and killing. Not that passive involvement absolves him either. But until we know more, we can't really say with complete certainty. 2. Snape treats all students with equal doses of nastiness? Not by a long shot. I've been re-reading POA, and Snape definitely favors Slytherins. In the first Potions class scene, Snape makes Ron and Harry prepare Draco's potion because Draco is nursing his supposedly injured arm. It's a safe bet that if Harry came to class with his arms actually cut off, Snape would tell him to quit whining and fix his own potion, with his toes if necessary! Maybe this isn't too surprising, given that Snape is head of Slytherin House, and that he either does not choose or is even incapable of acting without prejudice. We don't see him with Hufflepuffs or Ravenclaws, but I suspect he's somewhere in the middle with them-- strict, but not as permissive as he is with Slytherins, nor as demeaning as he is to Gryffindors. 3. Why does Dumbledore let someone like Snape teach? I think Dumbledore lets Snape teach because Snape is in fact *teaching* the students something. Not only is he competently teaching them Potions, but he is also teaching them about the real (i.e. Wizarding) world. Yes, Snape is mean, even occasionally mildly abusive, and Dumbledore does call him on it when necessary. But it's a life lesson. If students can't handle Snape's vitriol, especially certain students like Harry and Neville who will likely be crucial in saving the WW, how will they ever stand up to Voldemort? BTW, I don't think for a minute there is some good cop/bad cop thing going on here. Snape is simply Snape, and I don't believe he is *acting* at all. He despises Harry, both because of his father, and because of Harry's own actions and attitude. Snape goes on his merry way, doing what he does because that's simply how he is, and Dumbledore accepts it because it is far more beneficial than harmful. And because he knows that the students, while perhaps bruised a bit by Snape's words, are completely safe in Snape's presence (which is no small thing, if you consider some of the other teachers). 4. Snape's Boggart and Patronus? I don't really have a clue! I do think Snape has both though. I am wondering if his Boggart might be whatever drove him from Voldemort's side. Something he was nearly forced to do, but realized he couldn't go through with? Or, something he did, and then regretted enough to leave? As for his Patronus, Snape has to have at least one happy memory (I hope). It will be pretty fascinating to see what it is. (Though I can't quite wrap my mind around the image of a smiling Snape!) In closing, I have to say that I am a Snape-aholic, simply because he is such a fascinating character. And of all the things I'm waiting to find out in the next two books, I think the one thing I want to know most is *what* drove Snape away from Voldemort. There are a dozen other things I want to know about Snape, which I'd add, but it's getting late. Maybe in another post! Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From briggielockyer at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 06:23:39 2004 From: briggielockyer at yahoo.com (Brigitte Holder) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 23:23:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry uses Hermione's wand to kill Volemort? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040712062339.21302.qmail@web54001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105746 Meliss9900 at aol.com writes: > > I don't think that there are only 3 possibilities. We learned in GOF that > Veela Hair can be used in a wand's core. I'd venture a guess that there are > > more possibilties out there than just the ones we've heard about. > > Melissa >Bad form responding to my own post but I forgot about >Krum's wand where >something called hornbeam is mentioned in association >with dragon heart string. >I'm not sure of Hornbeam was the wood or if it was a >duel cored wand. Melissa Brigitte: I agree that there can be other core substances in wands. But I am sure Hermione got her wand from Ollivander, being as she is a muggle and doesn't know of other wizarding places to buy one yet. And at Ollivander's they only use three types. In the PS, US edition pages 83-84 " Every Ollivander wand has a core of a poweful magical substance, Mr. Potter. We use unicorn hairs, phoenix tail feathers and the heartstrings of dragons." So Hermione's wand has one of the three substances above. Brigitte --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Mon Jul 12 09:17:11 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:17:11 -0000 Subject: My take on the Half-blood Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105747 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ericoppen" wrote: > One thing that I haven't seen (pardon me if this has come up; my e- > mail is slightly on-the-fritz, so I'm a bit behind on this group) is the possibility that the Half-Blood Prince might be Viktor Krum. Krum's last name itself provides a clue---it is the name of the Khan > whose Turkic people founded the Bulgarian nation. They were absorbed by their Slavic-speaking subjects, but retained the name and > continued to identify in many ways with the original, non-Slavic > Bulgars. Aggie, I believe it is possible that Krum will play a part in the remaining two books (why tho? I'm not sure as I've just remembered he doesn't really feature in OotP! Although we do know that Hermione is still in contact with him so maybe that's why?!?! I confuse myself sometimes!!) Anyway back to the point I wanted to make!! I agree that your theory is plausable and had JKR not said that it was to be the original title to CoS then I would probably agree with you, However, she has said that this was the case and as Krum was only introduced in GoF, it cannot relate to him (IMO). Although, now I've just put this in writing another thought has occurred to me. I wonder what JKR's actually wording on this is. . . let me check it out. . . Darn and Blast! I had the brain wave (think that should say brain ache though!!) that perhaps we'd been seeing this all wrong, that MAYBE just because it had been ONE of the titles for CoS we all assumed that the HBP in book 6 is going to be the same HBP that would have been in book 2. I did wonder, if only for 2 minutes, if they were in deed two different beings!! On JKR's web site she says that it was an original title for CoS and that lots of info that was originally destined for CoS in now going to be in HBP, so it could still be a relevant theroy . . . couldn't it?. . . From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Mon Jul 12 09:19:29 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 05:19:29 -0400 Subject: The sorting hat seems to think Harry is a pure-blooded wizard. Message-ID: <001201c467f1$56374ae0$a7c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 105748 Jenni said: "For instance, Slytherin Took only pure-blood wizards Of great cunning, just like him," ------ Cathy: I think the operative word there is 'took'. When Slytherin was in charge he may well have sorted out the pure-blood kids and took them to teach. I don't, for a second, believe the sorting hat is still operating this way or it would not have sorted Tom Riddle into Slytherin or tried to sort Harry there. I think there is a lot more than meets the eye to that old hat (which was, after all Goderic Gryffindor's) and I think we may yet find out a couple of the Slytherin kids are not pure-bloods either which may create a bit of trouble in books 6 & 7. xtremesk8ergurl said: "I remember DD saying at one point(in CoS) that he definitely should have been in Gryfindor. I can understand why the sorting hat would think of Slytherin with the scar and all, but do any of you think that the hat would of changed its mind after a few minutes?" Cathy: I think the scene you're pointing to was DD telling Harry that, yes, indeed he did have several of the qualites Slytherin looked for in students but Harry, himself, chose Gryffindor and it is "our choices more than our abilites" that make us who we are. He then indicated that the sword had once belonged to Goderic Gryffindor and "only a true Gryffindor" could have removed it from the hat. Which would seem to indicate that the Sorting Hat can be wrong. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From crashingboar at tiscali.co.uk Mon Jul 12 10:26:29 2004 From: crashingboar at tiscali.co.uk (The Crashing Boar) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:26:29 +0100 Subject: ...HRH friendship - SS/PS the obstacle course was meant for HRH References: <1089625581.12223.69779.m25@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001101c467fa$b1e3d580$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> No: HPFGUIDX 105749 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 05:16:02 -0000 From: "caesian" Subject: Re: ...HRH friendship - SS/PS the obstacle course was meant for HRH > vmonte responds: > > You are right Cathy, I think there is something fishy about the > entire obstacle course in SS/PS. I've said this before but I believe > that the whole course specifically geared for HRH. Caesian responds: The point I want to make here is that it is very unlikely that all of these= talents could be embodied by a single school age witch or wizard. I don't think it's necess= ary to conclude that the tasks are merely easy, or only geared for HRH. I think it might b= e that this array of tasks are designed to challenge a 'complete' witch or wizard, one with m= astery in many disciplines (a highly skilled individual, indead). As a team, HRH are able= to accomplish what no one of them could do alone. I thought team effort was the whole point of it all - Dumbledore set it up so that it was extremely difficult for any one wizard to get through all the challenges/wards, but each section was set up by those people he had on hand at all times, so that should he need to access the Stone, he could. He was expecting a particular type of assault, by an individual who would not want to share the power, not a team effort. The idea of a team led by Dumbledore also supports the multiple brooms. Dawn From patientx3 at aol.com Mon Jul 12 10:58:02 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:58:02 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105750 Kyntor wrote: > You're right neither one of us know for sure if Snape has > used "mudblood" before. However, he does use it here. My thinking > is that if he used it here, he has probably used it before, whether > or not it was against Lily. Del replied: >>Don't get me wrong, I agree with you : I'm pretty sure the word must have escaped Snape's mouth quite a few times in all those years. But my point is : we don't *know* that, we have no *proof*. And so we can't use it as an argument.<< HunterGreen: Clearly there's no way to know for sure either way. But I think a pretty good case can be made for it being the only or one of the few times he used it aloud (outside of his slytherin buddies). Who have we heard use that word besides Snape? (as far as I can recall) Kreacher and Malfoy. Now Kreacher is a house-elf and is slightly off in the head, so he barely knows what he's saying, so the only person to proudly wave that word around in mixed company is Draco Malfoy. It sort of reminds me of Malfoy Sr. telling Draco not to bad-talk Harry Potter in public in CoS. That word might be fine around the death- eater circle, but in public you keep it to yourself. While I'm sure he's not the only pure-blood enthusiast, Draco is the only one arrogant to use what is considered a horrible curse word. Snape does use it in the flashback, but in a very specific situation. This is after he's been humiliated in front of a crowd of people and was saved by a GIRL and a MUGGLE-BORN from his worst enemy. Talk about embarassement. No wonder he let a certain word slip out. I'm sure young Snape *thought* that word all the time, but considering his personality (he's far less verbose and popular than Draco), its unlikely that he used it on people very often. Anything's possible though. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 11:01:35 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:01:35 -0000 Subject: Who is berk and Slytherin reputation In-Reply-To: <20040712054015.25024.qmail@webmail10.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105751 Adan wrote : > > have a hard time picturing Lucius sitting on his bed scribbling > > away in the diary. Just not a very manly thing. I've always > > thought diaries were rather a "girly" thing, Amey answered : > Yes, sure. Remember what Ron says anout the diary? "Tom got a diary > for christmas and couldn't bother writing it" (Sorry, not exact > quote). This shows a typical boy's POV towards a diary. I am sure TR > wouldn't have bothered writing a diary had it not been the way to > instruct his succcessor. Del wonders : Interesting. Does that mean that Tom *intended* it for a girl to find and use the Diary ? Or is it just that customs have changed since Tom's time, when boys maybe wrote more often in diaries ? Amey wrote : > Sorting hat to Neville: > "Let's see. What have we here? You are not exceptionally bright > (Ravenclaw out). Wouldn't do anything to gain what you want, zero > cunning (Slytherin out). Courage I see some, hidden somewhere deep > down. Plenty of Loyalty too... I think its Hufflepuff for you... not > Hufflepuff you say, ok then it better be Gryffindor" ;D Del replies : I don't have my PS book with me, but I vaguely seem to remember that Neville said he would be happy with anything but Slytherin. Did I imagine that ? And anyway, why would Neville not want to go to Hufflepuff ? As you said, he doesn't have exceptional brains, he's not the typical picture of courage, and I doubt he would *want* to go to Slytherin ! (Unless there's something about one or both of his parents that we don't know...) So he was *obvious* Hufflepuff material, he would have no reason not to want to go there. I, Del, wrote : > > If what James and Sirius did is OK, then Draco and his buddies > > don't do anything wrong either.' Amey answered : > But with Crabbe and Goyle, you have to keep an eye on their fists, > not their wands, which makes it a different proposition. Del replies : Er, yes : a much *less* dangerous one. To attack someone with your fists, you have to be close to them. With a wand, you can attack from far away. Moreover, a spell is often much more annoying and debilitating than a hit. Amey wrote : > And also, they tend to attack together, it's not like Draco puts a > spell and C&G wait on the lines. Draco doesn't have that daring. :D Del replies : In the Pensieve scene, Sirius did not exactly wait until Snape recovered from James's spell (Expelliarmus) before cursing Snape himself (Impedimenta). He gave a bark of laughter and immediately cursed Snape. Amey wrote : > I am not defending what they did at that time, what I am again saying > is a scene in Penseive (which might be subjective for all we know) is > not an evidence on which you can brand somebody. Del replies : That was never my intention. I was originally responding to Valky who said that James was noble, even in his fight with Snape. James might be quite noble otherwise, *we don't know*, but he *was* a total berk in that scene. I, Del, wrote : > > But *why* should Snape have chosen another House ?? Slytherin is > > NOT a bad House, and it was even less so at the time. We know NOW > > that many DEs were former Slytherins, but when Snape got to > > Hogwarts, the VWI was barely starting, and Slytherin House was not > > yet tainted with the Dark Mark of the DEs. Amey answered : > Yes, but still it was a house founded by *Pureblood-maniac*. Del replies : That was more than a thousand years ago... Amey wrote : > Also, people there were obsessed with Dark Arts, even if we have only > a few examples. So, I think, it would have a bad enough reputation > even discounting DEs. Del replies : It had a bad enough reputation *for those who disliked the Dark Arts*. However, it's quite obvious that many people, including some very influent ones, didn't belong to that category. The Malfoys, the Blacks : 2 very prominent families, deep in the Dark Arts. I'm afraid that if such influent people approved of those Arts and all their kids ended up in Slytherin, then Slytherin most probably did NOT have a bad reputation at all. Moreover, Snape was *raised* in the Dark Arts, so it would make sense that he would *want* to be Sorted in Slytherin, just like Draco. As for Sirius, I repeat what I said in another post : we don't know that he didn't want to be in Slytherin. It might just be that the Hat saw more reckless courage than cunning ambition, and so decided to Sort him in Gryffindor. For all we know, Sirius seethed with rage for weeks. Del From htfulcher at comcast.net Mon Jul 12 11:06:40 2004 From: htfulcher at comcast.net (marephraim) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:06:40 -0000 Subject: JKR's chills AKA Hermione the Werewolf....? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105752 Annemehr wrote: > If this is one of the things that gave Jo chills, maybe she didn't > take it literally. I mean, the movie has some internal inconsistencies > here, because Hermione is obviously not a werewolf. But to Jo it > could have foreshadowed Hermione (or someone else for that matter, as > Sirius also tried) "reaching" Lupin during a transformation. It > needn't involve Hermione becoming a werewolf to be a foreshadowing. > > Or maybe Lupin really will bite her... > > Annemehr > the hopelessly behind While this thread seems dangerously close to OT or Movie group territory, I had also wondered about the werewolf connection based on JKR's comments about POA. However, some thoughts and considerations.... In POA, Hermione notes that she first knew Lupin was a werewolf when his Boggart was a full moon (mistaken for a crystal ball or something by the others). [I think the movie faulted here in making the Boggart too obviously a full moon for the viewers, with clouds!] Through GOF there were numerous side comments from JKR that Hermione had rather protuberant teeth. [This is weak, I know; but hey, it's speculation!] The assumption is being made that a werewolf changes from the time of being infected. Does Lupin ever clarify this issue? In what year of attendence did the transformations start? I don't have the books before me so I'll concede that perhaps they began even in his first year (A werewolf cub? "Oh Daddy! He's so cute! Can we get one?" "No, dear, you know they're cute now, but when they grow up they are a terror! And I'm certainly not going to walk it!") Note that the planting of the Whomping Willow does not necessitate that Lupin's transformations had already started, only that Dumbledore knew a device would be needed to prevent others from access to the tunnel at some point. Maybe, Hermione wasn't bitten by a werewolf. If there is a foreshadowed element in the movie POA relating to future books that relates to Hermione's werewolf connection, maybe it has a different origin. May be she was licked by a werewolf. :-p MarEphraim From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jul 12 11:12:40 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:12:40 -0000 Subject: Ron as prefect? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105753 Sad1199 wrote: > I have a question that has probably already been posted. If so, > please direct me... Question is, what qualities does Ron possess to > make him a prefect? Unless Dumbledore chose him to help protect > Harry in the future, I would think that his ordinary grades and lack > of leadership would eliminate him from the process. One would think > Seamus or Dean would be better prefect material than Ron. > Potioncat: How about courage? As for leadership, who had shown leadership at that point? Ron definitely showed leader ability when he managed the chess game. We don't know enough about Seamus and Dean (I'm assumimng we've eliminated Neville) Who knows what their grades are or what their reputations are. Dean may be in detention half the time for forgery ;-) I really think the Powers that Be looked at the 5 boys and decided Ron and Harry were the leading candidates and chose Ron. Potioncat From jferer at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 11:13:33 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:13:33 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105754 Del: "Isn't that the usual excuse for people who are trying to change others : "I'm just trying to help you" ? And I disagree that Hermione is trying to change them only as far as academics go. Just one example : Cho comes to Harry, and Ron attacks her on her Tornado badge. Then Hermione berates Ron for being such an insensitive person. Well, if she really accepted Ron for what he is, she would know that he is insensitive (we all do, that's part of his make-up), and she would accept that. She would maybe explain to him calmly that he just did a mistake, but she wouldn't go berating him like she did." You're asking too much of Hermione not to speak her mind. You have to do more than that to be fairly accused of trying to manage people. Most women of my acquaintance would be irritated by a friend's churlish behavior. Del: "Well, that was the starting supposition, wasn't it :-) ? That Hermione was in love with Ron too. I'm not saying she is, I'm just saying her behaviour is concordant with being in love with Ron and cannot be used to prove that she loves Harry." Could you point out how she shows her romantic attachment to Ron? The problem here is that all three are closely attached to one another by their shared experience. That makes things confusing. We see more evidence of Hermione's and Harry's emotional convergence ? Harry hearing Hermione's voice, Hermione's keen perception of Harry ? but even there it's potential romance, not romance. Del: "Will it surprise you that I disagree :-) ? Cho was horribly jealous, there's nothing wrong with that. If Harry had understood what was going on and had reassured her accordingly, she would probably have stopped talking about Hermione in that way." I suspect that others see what Harry does not: how close he is to Hermione. Again, that's not romance right now, but it wouldn't take much to tip the scales, and I think the scales will tip at some point. As far as Harry being offended when Cho dumped on Hermione, he is Hermione's close friend, after all. Here's what I think would have happened with Cho, had she been "reassured:" she would have started pressuring Harry to loosen his ties with Hermione. Del:Del, who's not a R/H shipper, but thinks it would be too unfair if Hermione ended up with Harry... unless Ron finds another love interest first !" Huh? Was Hermione issued to Ron, or something? He didn't buy her on ebay. Ron wouldn't be happy with her, anyway. He's an ordinary guy (a good guy) who wants an ordinary life, and that's not Hermione. Jim Ferer From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Jul 12 11:16:14 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:16:14 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: <1c0.1b859bda.2e235260@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105755 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Batchevra at a... wrote: > > Lupin told us that Snape had seen Madame Pomphrey take him to the Whomping > Willow to transform, and was interested where he went. Granted Sirius never told > Snape what was going on, but told him how to get through the Willow. What > Snape should have known is that the teachers were somewhat already informed about > something that should have been kept quiet.Yes, Sirius sent Snape to the > Shrieking Shack, but Snape was partly at fault for going. > There is one aspect of this whole affair that (so far) no-one has managed to explain: Just what did Sirius tell Snape and why did Snape believe him? They distrusted, perhaps even detested each other, yet we are expected to believe that Snape would *ask* Sirius to divulge 'secret' information and that Sirius would supply it. IIRC canon states that Sirius *told* Snape how to get past the Whomping Willow, so it's not a question of eavesdropping on a conversation. Perhaps it went like this: Snape: "Er, Black, disgusting Muggle and Mudblood lover and disgrace to a noble pureblood family that you are and who I have been trying to get the dirt on for years, what's with Lupin every full moon? I'm sure you're willing to let me in on the secret." Sirius: "Of course, slimy, nasty sneak and practioner of Dark Magic who has dogged our footsteps for far too long. I have no problem with that at all. Just press that knot on the trunk, slime your way up the tunnel and you'll learn everything." Snape: "Why thank you, Gryffindor creep and bully who has done everything possible to avoid my nosy-parkering and whom I hate and distrust with every fibre of my being. Since our antipathy is mutual I'll do just that. Thank you for telling me exactly what I wanted to know and of course I should have realised that all I had to do was ask and you would immediately tell me the truth. Heaven forfend that I should suspect your motives or your veracity." Sirius: "Quite all right, you greasy haired git. All you have to do is ask and of course I'll give you the key to getting one of my closest friends hounded out of the school. Because you will be spreading the news of what you find in there around, won't you?" Does not compute. Snape asking is fanciful; him accepting what Sirius tells him at face value becomes far-fetched. The eventual out-come was not foreseeable at this stage. Sirius says that he wanted to "teach Snape a lesson." Some lesson. The back-lash should have been epic, no matter what transpired. But it wasn't, for one reason - DD hushed it up. And this leads on to the most unbelievable bit of all - Snape kept his mouth shut. He told no-one what had happened. Given what we know about Snape, is that credible? He has information that would get Lupin, Sirius, James, Peter and DD into really serious hot water and he'd probably end up looking like a hero to concerned parents - and he does nothing. How did DD 'persuade' him to co-operate? Threaten to expel him? Wouldn't work - it would give Snape even more incentive to pop round to the Daily Prophet offices to offer an exclusive - "Cover-up at Hogwarts! DD expels pupil whose sole concern was the safety of fellow students! Board of Govenors to investigate!" Snape is a fairly innocent party in this episode - he's nosy but he doesn't do anything that could be classed as wrong, no matter that his motives were selfish. He's the injured party, the one with something to justifiably complain about. And he would - vociferously. Yet DD successfully gags him. It certainly adds a new dimension to the Snape/DD relationship. Why would Snape *ever* trust DD again? Kneasy From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 11:16:58 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:16:58 -0000 Subject: Ron as prefect? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105756 sad1199 wrote: > I have a question that has probably already been posted. If so, > please direct me... Question is, what qualities does Ron possess to > make him a prefect? Unless Dumbledore chose him to help protect > Harry in the future, I would think that his ordinary grades and lack > of leadership would eliminate him from the process. One would think > Seamus or Dean would be better prefect material than Ron. Del replies : I don't have the post numbers to direct you to, but someone else will surely post them later. I just want to say that I am a tiny bit offended at the way you dismiss Ron. His grades might be ordinary, but then so are the grades of all others, except Hermione, and Harry in DADA, as far as we know. So the other boys would not have been better choices on that point. No leadership qualities ? I beg to differ. Right from the first book when Ron directs Harry and Hermione on the giant chess set, we see that he *can* lead if he has a *reason* to. But the thing is, most of the time, he doesn't have any reason to lead. As the youngest of the Weasley brothers, he's used to older brothers deciding for him. And as Harry and Hermione's friend, both leaders too, he's quite happy to follow them in a life of fun and adventures. Everybody can't be a leader at the same time. Ron's leadership abilities (courage, initiative, strategy, and so on) are latent, but they are most definitely present in him. And we've never seen Seamus or Dean lead anything or anyone either. Del From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Mon Jul 12 11:25:43 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:25:43 -0000 Subject: Erised thoughts (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105757 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "davewitley" wrote: (big snip) The Stone, regardless of its > actual physical location, would only be accessible via the Mirror - > hence the need for ancillary protection of the Mirror. > > There are plenty of weaknesses with this theory. The Mirror was not > brought into play, apparently, until some time after Dumbledore took > charge of the Stone. Thematically, it doesn't bring in the issue of > reversal raised by Iris. It does, however, suggest how the Mirror > could more or less do Dumbledore's wishes without him micro- managing > what it shows to each person. And it does preserve the idea of > Harry having to face up to his true self - though he didn't do badly > at the end of PS. > > David Carolyn: Your theory reminded me of the classic 'mirror mirror on the wall, tell me who is the fairest of them all'. And we all know what happened to the wicked witch, so you could be right. It feels like a JKR twist on an old joke. I've always been curious to know what would have happened to the Stone if Quirrel!Mort had lost his/their temper and chucked a brick at the mirror before Harry had retrieved it. Would the Stone have vanished for ever? Or would it have continued to exist in some sort of peculiar limbo? And would it have been the same kind of limbo that Vapour!Mort currently existed in, at that point? Probably been reading too much Pullman and Fforde, but I've kind of been waiting for a parallel universe, complete with a time shift, to turn up in these books. A mirror would seem to be an obvious way into such a world; wonder if all the WW mirrors we have seen are portals in some way. From patientx3 at aol.com Mon Jul 12 11:27:51 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:27:51 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105758 Kneasy wrote: >>Given what we know about Snape, is that credible? He has information that would get Lupin, Sirius, James, Peter and DD into really serious hot water and he'd probably end up looking like a hero to concerned parents - and he does nothing. How did DD 'persuade' him to co-operate? Threaten to expel him? Wouldn't work - it would give Snape even more incentive to pop round to the Daily Prophet offices to offer an exclusive - "Cover-up at Hogwarts! DD expels pupil whose sole concern was the safety of fellow students! Board of Govenors to investigate!"<< HunterGreen: Well that's not *entirely* true. If Snape was on the grounds after dark then he's breaking *that* rule. Certainly not as bad as sending a fellow student to be mauled to death by one of your best friends, but not angelic either. I to would like to know how on earth Dumbledore convinced Snape to keep his mouth shut. Maybe rather than threatening him with something he offered him something. I'll bet it felt REALLY good when Snape finally spilled the beans at the end of PoA, he kept that secret for a LONG time. (btw, excellent imaginary Snape/Sirius conversation) From patientx3 at aol.com Mon Jul 12 11:38:16 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:38:16 -0000 Subject: Mark Evans? Never heard of him! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105759 Carol wrote: >>We were, alas, quite wrong, as JKR informed us on her website in the Polls question section of the FAQ. You can find her tongue-in-cheek response (which, after having felt properly chagrined, I now find amusing) by clicking on the paperclips at either http://www.jkrowling.com/ or http://www.jkrowling.co.uk/en/<< HunterGreen: *very heavy sigh* And I was so convinced too. There goes that theory. I'll copy the text below in case any of you don't want to make the trip over to her site (its quite worth the read, you're right Carol, its quite amusing). http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/faq_poll.cfm " Result of F.A.Q. Poll What is the significance, if any, of Mark Evans? I couldn't answer the poll question before now, because I've been making arrangements to take my family into hiding. It takes time to arrange fake passports, one-way air tickets to Bolivia and twenty- four hour armed security. Why should I resort to such desperate measures? Because after you've heard this answer, I'll have to disappear for my own safety. Now before I get down to it (you can guess what's coming, can't you?) I am going to put up a feeble pre-emptive defence. Firstly, you were all spinning highly ingenious theories about Mark Evans, so I thought that you would welcome the chance to hear the truth about him. Secondly, I tried hard not to raise hopes or expectations by adding the crucial words 'if any' to the question. Thirdly... there is no thirdly. I'm just killing time. (Takes deep breath) Mark Evans is... nobody. He's nobody in the sense that Mr. Prentice, Madam Marsh and Gordon-Dudley's-gang-member are nobodies, just background people who need names, but who have no role other than the walk-on parts assigned to them. (Checks that Neil has immunized the dog and that Jessica has packed her Gameboy, and continues) I've got nobody to blame but myself. Sirius Black, Mrs. Figg and Mundungus Fletcher were all mentioned in passing well before they burst onto the stage as fully-fledged characters, so now you've all become too clever, not for your own good, but for mine. The fact is that once you drew my attention to it, I realised that Mark Evans did indeed look like one of those 'here he is, just a casual passer-by, nothing to worry about, bet you barely noticed him' characters who would suddenly become, half way through book seven, 'Ha ha! Yes, Mark Evans is back, suckers, and he's the key to everything! He's the Half Blood Prince, he's Harry's Great-Aunt, he's the Heir of Gryffindor, he lives up the Pillar of Storg? and he owns the Mystic Kettle of Nackledirk!' (Possible title of book seven there, must make a note of it). Then why ? WHY ? (I hear you cry) ? did I give him the surname "Evans"? Well, believe me, you can't regret it more than I do right now. "Evans" is a common name; I didn't give it much thought; I wasn't even trying to set up another red herring. I could just as easily have called him 'Smith' or 'Jones' (or 'Black' or 'Thomas' or 'Brown', all of which would have got me into trouble too). What else can I say? Many of the theories you presented were highly plausible. If you knew how often I've checked the FAQ poll hoping that one of the other questions might edge into the lead... Well, that's that. The car with false license plates is at the door and I've got to glue on my goatee. Goodbye. " From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jul 12 11:49:09 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:49:09 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes In-Reply-To: <20040712060516.79403.qmail@web54008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105760 > Alla: > > OK, then let's go back to my original question. What cover Snape has > to maintain by being nasty to Harry? > > snip > > Brigitte: > > IMO, Snape's actions towards Harry have nothing to do with loyalty to DD or LV or to maintaining a cover. In the first four books LV has not come back into a position to have power. snip Potioncat: You know, I'm really changing my mind on some of this. I no longer think DD and Snape are doing this on purpose and I'm not so sure Snape is doing it merely as a front. But from the beginning it's seemed to me that Snape is angry at Harry. Most of the teachers are expecting him to be wonderful, and see wonderful things. Snape is expecting him to be terrible and sees terrible things...but Snape also seems to expect great things of him. We've been told from two sources that Snape is tough on all the students (Hagrid says he doesn't like any of the students, and Harry has heard from someone that Snape plays favorites) So if Snape has baggage/hopes/concerns about Harry he is going to be even tougher on him. (And Neville too....I'm not sure how Hermione fits in) Here is one explanation, as a thought. If Snape spied for DD without LV knowing anything about the relationship, and if Snape went to Hogwarts after LV's fall, then LV must have been very surprised to find Snape at Hogwarts. DD, Hagrid, and Snape all believe LV is still alive and expect him to return (DD says maybe next year... in 50 years...) I'm sure DD and Snape expect it to be soon. And I wonder if Snape was getting a sense of LV in Harry's first year? When LV shows up, Snape cannot appear to be too loyal to DD. Keep in mind that other "free" DEs are working at the MoM...so being at Hogwarts isn't too much of a stretch. But his behavior should still be conistent with who he was before. If he wants to maintain contact with the DEs who have kids at Hogwarts, he cannot appear to like Harry. (Like that would ever be a problem?) And, if Harry is ever in LV's clutches, Harry can't seem to trust/like Snape. In re-reading the scene in GoF with the Muggle baiting, there was a group of hooded wizards controling the Muggles, but there was a large group of folk cheering them on. I think the anti-Muggle portion of the WW must be fairly large. And I think Snape needs to at least appear to be in that camp if he is to have any credibility with the DEs. Particularly if he needs to be on Lucius' good side to get information. I think he was worse in Gof than he ever had been, and that is when he knew LV was around. In OoP he does things that looks good to Draco and that may have been for Lucius' benefit. Potioncat who apologises for the rambling post in which she argued with herself and does not know if she is a Snape apologist, a Snape aholic or a Snapeophile. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 11:52:23 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:52:23 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105761 Jim Ferer wrote: > The problem here is that all three are closely attached to one > another by their shared experience. That makes things confusing. Del replies : I agree. As I said in my previous post, I'm not a die-hard R/H shipper. But I'm even less of a H/Hr shipper. Jim Ferer wrote: > I suspect that others see what Harry does not: how close he is to > Hermione. Again, that's not romance right now, but it wouldn't take > much to tip the scales, and I think the scales will tip at some > point. Del replies : I don't see that Hermione is not as close to Ron as she is to Harry. So *if* the scales tip, they could tip in Ron's direction. If they ever tip. Jim Ferer wrote: > As far as Harry being offended when Cho dumped on Hermione, he is > Hermione's close friend, after all. Del replies : I know. I'm not saying he shouldn't have been offended. I just think he should have tried to see Cho's point too, if he really pretended to be her boyfriend. He defended Hermione because he cares about her. Obviously, he didn't care much about Cho, since he made no effort to understand her. Jim Ferer wrote: > Here's what I think would have happened with Cho, had she been > "reassured:" she would have started pressuring Harry to loosen his > ties with Hermione. Del replies : I agree. I, Del, wrote (obviously :-) : > Del, who's not a R/H shipper, but thinks it would be too unfair if > Hermione ended up with Harry... unless Ron finds another love > interest first !" Jim Ferer wrote: > Huh? Was Hermione issued to Ron, or something? He didn't buy her on > ebay. Ron wouldn't be happy with her, anyway. He's an ordinary guy > (a good guy) who wants an ordinary life, and that's not Hermione. Del replies : Hermione wasn't issued to Ron, agreed, but neither was she issued to Harry. What I meant was that Ron is always second-best to Harry : Harry's got the money, the fame (even if he doesn't want it), the talent, the better looks, and he was supposed to get the Prefect badge. But Ron doesn't care most of the time, because he's such a loyal friend. However, I think he *would* care very much if Harry started dating Hermione. He would hurt a lot and I feel it wouldn't be fair on JKR's part to put Ron through *that*. But that's her characters, she can do with them as she wants. And it's not like those things never happen in RL either. As for the "ordinary guy" bit, it makes me cringe badly. First because I strongly believe that *nobody* is ordinary : everybody is the hero of their own life, which by definition makes them extraordinary. And also because there's no rule written anywhere that says that ordinary people should pair up together and leave extraordinary people to other extraordinary people, or that they should content themselves with living ordinary lives, whatever that might be. And anyway Ron has already shown that he does *not* want an "ordinary life" : he stayed with Harry when things got rough, and he applied for the place of Keeper on the Quidditch team. Del From htfulcher at comcast.net Mon Jul 12 11:53:08 2004 From: htfulcher at comcast.net (marephraim) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:53:08 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105762 Jim Ferer" wrote: > > Could you point out how she shows her romantic attachment to Ron? The > problem here is that all three are closely attached to one another by > their shared experience. That makes things confusing. We see more > evidence of Hermione's and Harry's emotional convergence ? Harry > hearing Hermione's voice, Hermione's keen perception of Harry ? but even there it's potential romance, not romance. I think Hermione shows the signs of romance with Ron in several ways. It's been commented on numerous times that bickering is often a manifestation of two youngsters' unconscious attraction to each other. I've seen too many kids who `hate' him/her with a blue passion only to later confess he/she is `nice.' Clearly, Hermione shows concern for Harry (and Ron, for that matter). And Harry and Ron's different personalities can easily explain why she and Harry interact one way and she and Ron another. But how about the references (GOF or OOP, I forget which) wherein we see Hermione building up to one of her trademark arguments/pleadings over a situation only to be cut off completely by Ron. Ron and Hermione have obviously talked about more than Harry during his absences from them. A review of the whole Yule Ball sequence of events could be argued to show that Hermione's choice of Viktor is in part that Ron (who's always around) blew his chance to ask her out and so chose someone else. Also, Hermione's reaction to Ron's attraction to the Veela and to Fleur shows more than casual exasperation at of a guy making a fool of himself. And let's not forget the great donnybrook after the ball, Ron's reaction every time Krum is mentioned after that, and Hermione's blushing in OOP when she mentions that she's still in contact with Krum. That blush should be given equal consideration in this group to the gleam in Dumbledore's eyes. > > Del: "Will it surprise you that I disagree :-) ? Cho was horribly > jealous, there's nothing wrong with that. If Harry had understood what > was going on and had reassured her accordingly, she would probably > have stopped talking about Hermione in that way." > > I suspect that others see what Harry does not: how close he is to > Hermione. Again, that's not romance right now, but it wouldn't take > much to tip the scales, and I think the scales will tip at some point. > As far as Harry being offended when Cho dumped on Hermione, he is > Hermione's close friend, after all. > > Here's what I think would have happened with Cho, had she been > "reassured:" she would have started pressuring Harry to loosen his ties with Hermione. Cho's jealousy is a mere attempt to get Harry to show more devotion to her than really feeling threatened by Hermione. Hermione is correct in her interpretation of this one. Take a careful look at the description of her reaction to Harry when he protests that he doesn't think she's ugly. In five years of close personal interaction, this is the only thing Harry has ever said positive about Hermione to her (attraction-wise). She simply laughs it off and moves on. To take all the potential references that `could' support H/Hr would be no more plausible than Harry and Ron going for a walk during the Yule Ball supporting a H/R ship. Cho throws out the Hermione comment simply because Hermione is the only girl in whose company Harry is ever consistently seen. Harry's reaction to Cho is simply that of a friend sticking up for a friend. > > Del:Del, who's not a R/H shipper, but thinks it would be too unfair if > Hermione ended up with Harry... unless Ron finds another love interest > first !" > > Huh? Was Hermione issued to Ron, or something? He didn't buy her on > ebay. Ron wouldn't be happy with her, anyway. He's an ordinary guy (a good guy) who wants an ordinary life, and that's not Hermione. Ron certainly did not buy Hermione on ebay (It was Owl-Bay!). I don't think it's fair to claim Ron wants an ordinary life and Hermione couldn't provide that. Hermione's interests are eclectic and academic. Once the whole Wizard World War business is over, I can see Hermione teaching at Hogwarts (more than the other two of the Trio). And I can see Ron working at the ministry (distance is not an issue, remember ? floo powder!). Prediction: Book six will feature a love triangle ? between Ron and Harry and Luna Lovegood (yes, I've argued this before). This will accomplish several things. Firstly, it will eventually give Harry his requisite girlfriend; and secondly, it will finally break the barrier for the eventual R/Hr ship. MarEphraim From patientx3 at aol.com Mon Jul 12 12:15:47 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:15:47 -0000 Subject: Snape and the meaning of courage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105763 Katie wrote: >>Snape subscribes to a certain world view shared by many people (though not by most of the HP characters), namely, the idea of "strong" and "weak" (inferior) people, and all that goes along with that. It is well summed up in Snape's explanation of what he considers to be "weak": "Fools who wear their hearts proudly on their sleeves, who cannot control their emotions, who wallow in sad memories and allow themselves to be provoked this easily..." (I'd say it sounds like Snape is describing Sirius. I don't think Snape fans and Sirius fans are opposing groups, but I DO think that Snape and Sirius represent opposites in many ways.)<< I've always thought that Snape was describing himself in his younger days (actually, it never occured to me that he was talking about Sirius, although it does describe Sirius pretty well). I think he was going off on a little tangent, some of which didn't really concern Harry. >>The question is, do you, as the reader, agree with Snape? I certainly don't. I think Snape's coldness is one of his worst qualities. And of course, Snape himself frequently fails to live up to his standards (though who would want to??)<< HunterGreen: I think Snape wants to. I think Snape as an adolescent was the "weak" person he described, and that was how he let himself fall into the evil side of things. He was looking at things colored through his emotions -- specifically those of hating James and Sirius and feeling resentful toward Dumbledore. Of course we don't know what made him change sides, but clearly now he can accept being on the same side as people he absolutely despises (like Harry and Sirius). As to his statement, it doesn't necessitate people being emotionless, just not dictated by their emotions. He was trying to impress the need to *control* emotion. (personally, I see a HUGE distinction between the two things; being a naturally introverted person, I don't really show my emotions very much, and have had times where people have acted like I simply don't have any). >>This persona Snape's cultivated since his Hogwarts years *is*, I think, simply a persona. It doesn't affect his deeper self,<< Then what is his *real* persona? I think he's naturally sort of unpleasant and dark and a loner (which is not necessarily bad), he just found a way to steer those to his benefit as opposed to a detriment. >> I'm sure that Snape's idea of courage has more to do with preservation of one's image of self-control and superiority above all else. That's not my idea of courage (though I'm sure there are some out there who would disagree with me.)<< Maybe that's not his idea of courage, but rather one of his personal values? I think that Snape believes in courage in the face of *anything*. >>I think a few posters have asked "Why was Neville sorted into Gryffindor, not Hufflepuff?" Put simply, I don't think real courage has *any*thing to do with outward appearance and daily behavior. I think it has much more to do with inner, personal strength, something I think Neville possesses a great deal of. (This is *SO* not valued enough at Hogwarts, except when it's in the form of Harry. Dumbledore tosses off a couple of points to Neville in PS/SS, and that's about all the public recognition he ever gets. Argh. But that's another post altogether.) Neville's bravery regarding his parents-- as well as his friends-- in particular amazes me. I think Neville would fight to the death to defend his parents' honor.<< I completely agree with you. Neville has sort of a quiet sort of bravery. He'll be afraid of Snape in class, but not afraid of going to the MoM and facing the people who destroyed his parents. Neville, then, is more afraid of humilation then (which, oddly enough, is a trait I'd say he shares with Snape). One of the things that bothers me the MOST about Neville is any time a comparison is made between him and Peter. (this has come up when people try to point out paraells between James et al's class and Harry's class) Except for being a little slow in class, Neville is *nothing* like Peter. Neville, despite all his little fears, has a sense of honor and courage at age eleven that even Lupin didn't have at age fifteen (I'm referring to the incident where he tried to stop the trio from going after the stone in PS/SS, and the pensieve--different situations, but similar emotions). I'm sure Neville will continue to grow into a more forefront character in the next two books. >>So... yeah. This is all related, of course, to Gryffindor and the sorting process. (We get an awfully "Gryffindor-centric" view of Hogwarts in the books-- I wonder if the school is really biased this way, or if that's just because the books are from Harry's viewpoint. Or JKR's, for that matter.) Really, which house would most people want to be sorted into?<< The Gryffindor-centric thing sort of gets on my nerves a bit at times (and I think it mostly comes from JKR, because its clearly the house she thinks is best). Honestly, what I've wondered about, is if someone were more loyal than they were courageous, or (to put it another way) valued loyalty more than intelligence, despite being very bright, would they be placed into Hufflepuff? After GoF, I was thinking yes, but after the sorting hat song in OotP, it appeared that Hufflepuff was only the "leftover" house (which I very much hope isn't the case, because being hardworking, loyal, and valuing fair play are IMO superior traits than being ambitious or courageous or clever). -Rebecca (who VERY MUCH needs to be getting to sleep) From Lynx412 at AOL.com Mon Jul 12 12:31:50 2004 From: Lynx412 at AOL.com (Lynx412 at AOL.com) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 08:31:50 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who is berk and Slytherin reputation Message-ID: <19b.26e4e6bd.2e23deb6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105764 In a message dated 7/12/2004 7:25:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, delwynmarch at yahoo.com writes: > As for Sirius, I repeat what I said in another post : we don't know > that he didn't want to be in Slytherin. It might just be that the Hat > saw more reckless courage than cunning ambition, and so decided to > Sort him in Gryffindor. For all we know, Sirius seethed with rage for > weeks. No, we don't know. I suspect, however, that he asked not to be in Slytherin. given the parallels between the MWPP era and the current one, I suspect that other events occurred, with a twist. For example: Snape approaching the scion of the well-known Dark wizard clan, Sirius Black and being rejected...perhaps the source of the 'Snivillus' nickname? James and Sirius meeting on the Hogwarts Express, Sirius, perhaps, avoiding his cousins The conversation runs something like this: Can I sit here, everywhere else is full..intros...hey, aren't you part of that ESE Black clan? Yea...So, are you ESE? Nope..aren't you one of those saintly Potters? Yep so are you a saint, too? Nope... grins on both sides...Snape arrives, perhaps prodded by his parents to make friends with the powerful Black clan, handling it badly, being rejected. And I can't help but think, even with the age difference, that the laughing girl we hear in his mind is Bellatrix. The Other Cheryl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 12 12:48:44 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:48:44 -0000 Subject: In a nutshell Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105765 I was really impressed by a passage in Charme's recent post: "He (Snape) knows from experience just the kind of weaknesses Voldemort exploited in him, and needs to impress the urgency on Harry his suspicions of the results if Harry doesn't succeed "(in occlumency, that is). Doesn't that just hit the nail in the head! Snape is working from personal experience. Voldemort had sensed the weakness in him and used it to recruit him to his own side. Snape is probably the only person who has had this experience and is in a position to use it to stop Harry going along the same path. That must be the reason why DD chose him to instruct Harry, together with the fact that Snape is an acknowledged superb occlumens, both these reasons outweighing the fact that neither Snape nor Harry are going to be happy with the lessons. I think this makes a lot of sense Sylvia From eleanor at dreamvine.org.uk Mon Jul 12 10:33:03 2004 From: eleanor at dreamvine.org.uk (iamvine) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:33:03 -0000 Subject: The sorting hat seems to think Harry is a pure-blooded wizard. In-Reply-To: <001201c467f1$56374ae0$a7c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105766 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cathy Drolet" wrote: > Jenni said: > > "For instance, Slytherin > Took only pure-blood wizards > Of great cunning, just like him," > ------ > > Cathy: > > I think the operative word there is 'took'. When Slytherin was in charge he may well have sorted out the pure-blood kids and took them to teach. I don't, for a second, believe the sorting hat is still operating this way or it would not have sorted Tom Riddle into Slytherin or tried to sort Harry there. I think there is a lot more than meets the eye to that old hat (which was, after all Goderic Gryffindor's) and I think we may yet find out a couple of the Slytherin kids are not pure-bloods either which may create a bit of trouble in books 6 & 7. Eleanor: Which makes Salazar Slytherin just one of a long line of thinkers down through history whose ideas have been twisted by subsequent generations. I wonder if it's possible for a Muggle-born to be put in Slytherin after all. Some of the Muggle aristocracy, after all, have or had similar ideas about themselves to pure-blood wizards. A magical child born to that background wouldn't yet be aware of their own status in the wizarding world when they first arrived at Hogwarts. If their personality was suitable, the Hat might put them in Slytherin and they'd then get a nasty shock when they found out how other Slytherins viewed them. The HBP might be a candidate for this treatment (if he's a prince in Muggle terms - my imagination is coming up with ideas about a royal Muggle who turns out to have married a witch, and whose child is vulnerable to being used by Voldemort to gain influence in Muggle society). Eleanor From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Mon Jul 12 10:33:36 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:33:36 -0000 Subject: Snape and the meaning of courage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105767 June wrote: Snape is one of those folks you're always going to wonder about. > My question is, where did the wimpy teen get the how-with-all to > become so menacing? I don't think being a death-eater is for sissies, unless you're Wormtail. Any thoughts on that one? > Katie: > Okay. What follows is a rambling and decidedly subjective post. If > you all have any thoughts on these subjects, I'd love to hear them. Aggie, Oh dear! you may regret that comment!! Tee Hee ;o) Katie: > What I find interesting about June's comment (above) is that it > presumes a certain agreement with the idea that young Snape *is* > wimpy. I don't think that he is. But I really dislike the whole > notion of "wimpiness", as opposed to cowardice, which I consider to > be a truly negative trait. SNIP > Snape subscribes to a certain world view shared by many people > (though not by most of the HP characters), namely, the idea > of "strong" and "weak" (inferior) people, and all that goes along > with that. It is well summed up in Snape's explanation of what he > considers to be "weak": > "Fools who wear their hearts proudly on their sleeves, who cannot control their emotions, who wallow in sad memories and allow > themselves to be provoked this easily..." > (I'd say it sounds like Snape is describing Sirius. I don't think > Snape fans and Sirius fans are opposing groups, but I DO think that > Snape and Sirius represent opposites in many ways.) > > The question is, do you, as the reader, agree with Snape? I > certainly don't. I think Snape's coldness is one of his worst > qualities. And of course, Snape himself frequently fails to live up > to his standards (though who would want to??) > > This persona Snape's cultivated since his Hogwarts years *is*, I > think, simply a persona. It doesn't affect his deeper self, and has > nothing really to do with whether he's a coward or not, only whether > he allows others to perceive him as one. I'm sure that Snape's idea > of courage has more to do with preservation of one's image of self- > control and superiority above all else. That's not my idea of > courage (though I'm sure there are some out there who would disagree > with me.) >SNIPS points on Neville and Griffindoric view on things Aggie, Hi Katie! I have to say that was an interesting message you wrote there. I need to clarify one point though, are you saying that you consider Snape to be a coward? To take your post point-by-point: I agree that I don't think Snape is 'Wimpy'. In the pensieve scene he may be distracted (with his OWL paper) and he may be described in the stereotypical way of being 'geeky' but I don't think he is a wimp. The way I read your post, and please forgive me if I'm wrong, but you seem to imply that while you do not think he is wimpy, you think he is cowardly. Could you explain your reasoning behind that? We are talking (well I am! ;0) ) about the young Snape. From the pensieve scene I do not see how you can label Snape a coward. Without getting into a Valky:Del debate about this, he is challenged and responds accordingly. He does not run away, does not hide or cry. He stands and fights. Is this an act of a coward? Surely he would have tried any means possible not to have that confrontation. He may even have avoided being in the near vacinity of James et al if he thought they would try anything in the first place! Your point about Snape seeing people as 'weak' and 'strong' is a good one. I will agree with it to a certain degree. As a reader, I understand what Snape means by that comment (and agree that it does seem like he's talking about Sirius). My take on that comment is that in Snape's world he sees that 'weak' people end up getting themselves killed. James, Lily and Sirius all died because they were 'weak' in saving Harry (and I don't dispute that they needed to, with the exception of Sirius but JKR knows what's best for us in the long run! Mommy dearest. . .!). They all wore their hearts on their sleeves, etc. I'm not saying that if he were at GH he would let Harry die, even he realises there are things worth dying for. But had Sirius and Harry not been so emotional, had not worn their hearts on their sleeves, then Sirius would almost certainly still be alive. (Yes I am a subscribed member of SAD DENIAL) His philosophy does make him cold, but it also keeps him alive. I don't think it's his worse trait, he wouldn't be 'Snape' if he wasn't that way. It's just what makes him as interesting as he is. I completely agree with you that the Snape we are 'allowed' to see is just his persona. Deep down I believe that he is just the same as the 15 yr old we see. Keeping himself to himself but prepared to do battle with anyone who challenges him. I understand your point about Snape's image being all important to him, and I agree it is, HOWEVER, I do not see anything that makes me think that this is how he defines courage. I see Snape as being a very couragous person, he was apprehensive about his mission at the end of GOF but went anyway. I doubt if this mission has anything to do with him keeping up the appearance of being a total slimeball! Unless he's doing the double agent thing (for DD not LV) and then I guess you could argue that case. I think that one depends on the reasons behind him going back to LV. I hope that my ramblings are clear! From pcaehill2 at sbcglobal.net Mon Jul 12 11:50:54 2004 From: pcaehill2 at sbcglobal.net (pcaehill2) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:50:54 -0000 Subject: My take on the Half-blood Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105768 > Aggie wrote: [snip] > Darn and Blast! I had the brain wave (think that should say brain > ache though!!) that perhaps we'd been seeing this all wrong, that > MAYBE just because it had been ONE of the titles for CoS we all > assumed that the HBP in book 6 is going to be the same HBP that would have been in book 2. I did wonder, if only for 2 minutes, if they were in deed two different beings!! On JKR's web site she says that it was an original title for CoS and that lots of info that was > originally destined for CoS in now going to be in HBP, so it could > still be a relevant theroy . . . couldn't it?. . . Pam responds: I agree; in choosing the HBP, JKR is not bound solely to characters from CoS. She only specified who HBP *was not*. I think that you're right--the material that was originally intended for CoS may be info/plot/characters that didn't make it into CoS at all!! As I wrote earlier, I think the HBP may be eastern European, mostly due to these reasons: 1) LV's years before his "rise to power" may have been spent in some eastern European country, because LV sought refuge in that region on at least two occasions: when he met Quirrel, and before he met Wormtail. Perhaps he was already familiar with the region--maybe in years past he had the company of Durmstrang graduates (also Slavic)? 2)OoP pointed out the need for the houses to stand together, and GoF (maybe indirectly) the need for "international magical cooperation" to defeat LV. 3) OoP also contains a reference to Charlie Weasley's presence in Romania, and his effort to muster support from international wizards- -this will surely be further developed in Book 6. 4) There are a great many references to slavic countries: Krum's Bulgaria, Charlie's Romania, LV in Albania, and the unknown but slavic location of Durmstrang. From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Mon Jul 12 13:14:15 2004 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:14:15 -0000 Subject: The sorting hat seems to think Harry is a pure-blooded wizard. In-Reply-To: <75EB2407D134C942A9AA6518C4B853A2024426@zeus.rsmnetworks.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105769 Jenni wrote: > I'm sitting here watching the ABC Family showing of Harry Potter and the > Sorcerer's Stone movie and it suddenly occurred to me that the sorting hat > does seriously consider putting Harry into Slytherin. I think you are underestimating the subtlety of the Hat. It never suggested Slytherin. All it did was start an appraisal of Harry, and Harry interrupts with 'Not Slytherin', and the Hat takes him at his word without ever committing on what it might have chosen if Harry had remained silent. Later in COS, the Hat still remembers the encounter, and says 'You would have done well in Slytherin' - not 'better than in Gryffindor', just 'well' - something which Dumbledore effectively confirms at the end of the book. The Hat, as the collective mind of four pioneering educators, is doing its job and trying to get Harry to broaden his mind. It focuses on Harry's rather simplistic view of Slytherin and challenges it, in a way that, if he thinks about it carefully, both endorses the validity of membership of Slytherin and the abilities of Harry himself: "Harry, you would do well *anywhere*. You would have done well in Slytherin. Being in Slytherin would have been good for you - but I don't regret putting you in Gryffindor." David From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Mon Jul 12 13:21:18 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:21:18 -0000 Subject: ...HRH friendship - SS/PS the obstacle course was meant for HRH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105770 Cathy wrote: > I want to know why there were three broomsticks in the winged key > room. Three. Seems a bit >> odd, doesn't it? As though DD KNEW > HRH would be the ones to go after it. Nearly anyone >> >> else > would be trying to get the stone would be acting alone, why would > they need three >> broomsticks. vmonte responded: > You are right Cathy, I think there is something fishy about the > entire obstacle course in SS/PS. I've said this before but I > believe that the whole course specifically geared for HRH. My > comments below are from a previous post. > > Page 302, SS: > "D'you think he meant you to do it?" said Ron. "Sending you your > father's cloak and everything?" > "Well," Hermione exploded, "if he did?I mean to say?that's terrible? > you could have been killed." > > "No, it isn't," said Harry thoughtfully. "He's a funny man, > Dumbledore. I think he sort of wanted to give me a chance. I think > he knows more or less everything that goes on here, you know. I > reckon he had a pretty good idea we were going to try, and instead > of stopping us, he just taught us enough to help. I don't think it > was an accident he let me find out how the mirror worked. It's > almost like he thought I had the right to face Voldemort if I > could " > > vmonte: > Interesting isn't it. This is exactly what Dumbledore has been doing > throughout all the books. I think that the obstacles that were set > up were specifically geared for Harry, Hermione, and Ron to go > through. > > Minerva's chess game -- Why did MM put this as an obstacle? Her > specialty is transfigurations!? This was definitely geared for Ron > who excels in chess. > > Madam Hooch's flying-key room -- This is obviously geared for Harry > who is great at flying. > > DD's Mirror-of-Erised -- Harry even states that DD got him > acquainted with it so that he would know how it works. > > Professor Sprout's Devil's Snare ? Hermione figures this out. > > Page 285, Snape's obstacle > > "Hermione let out a great sigh and Harry, amazed, saw that she was > smiling, the very last thing he felt like doing." > > "Brilliant," said Hermione. "This isn't magic?it's logic?a puzzle. > A lot of the greatest wizards haven't got an ounce of logic, they'd > be stuck in here forever." > > vmonte: > > It is unusual that Snape's obstacle has to do with logic, not > potions. I think that out of all of these obstacles, Snape's really > seems geared for Voldemort. Perhaps he believed that Voldemort > would know every kind of potion there was--so he comes up with a > puzzle. And since Hermione is a super brain, she figures it out > anyway. (Or, maybe he did mean it for Hermione to solve.) > > So finally, what I'm trying to say is that Dumbledore intended for > the children to go through the obstacle course. He also intended for > Harry to confront Voldemort at its end. He prepares Harry for this > confrontation. > > DD created this obstacle course for the children. Is he training > them for an as yet mentioned future role? > vivian SSSusan: WOO HOO!! I knew there had to be others who believed this!! Just a few days ago there was a thread called Mirror of the Heart, and in it I wrote this [post #105321]: ********************************** I wonder, though, why DD would want to give Harry such a gift [Kneasy had suggested DD gave Harry the gift of seeing his parents in the Mirror of Erised] (bec. it seems that is what you're saying, it was the gift of seeing his family) when he also KNEW that Harry would be tempted to sit there and rot in front of it, tormented. Yes, thrilled beyond measure, but also so obsessed that he couldn't tear himself away. It's possible that DD did cause this. But it's also possible that DD set it up so that Harry would find it, come to know its true "mechanism" of showing our deepest desires and to then show him how dangerous a thing it can become precisely because it does show our deepest desires. But why do this? I really think it was all a set-up by DD, but for a different purpose than you're putting forth. I think DD knew he was going to use the mirror as the final protection for the Stone, and I believe those 7 tasks were set up as *sort of* a protection but also as a testing ground for Harry--to test his character, his determination, and his talents & abilities. Showing the mirror to Harry early allowed him to explain it to Harry; then he could test his mettle, to see just what Harry was made of when the stone was on the line. BTW, I don't think Harry's deepest desire was to get out of there at that moment. I don't think he was focusing on that *yet*. I think his deepest desire was truly to STOP Q!V, and THIS is precisely what DD was testing in Harry. WOULD his deepest desire be to split, or would it be (as DD suspected & hoped) to stop Q!V and protect the stone? ************************************* What I hadn't thought as much about, vmonte, was how the tasks were set up nicely for all *three* of them. Thank you for pulling out the canon to support this. :-) Siriusly Snapey Susan From drednort at alphalink.com.au Mon Jul 12 13:25:07 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:25:07 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron as prefect? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <40F31DD3.15778.E5F90E@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 105771 On 12 Jul 2004 at 5:42, sad1199 wrote: > I have a question that has probably already been posted. If so, > please direct me... Question is, what qualities does Ron possess to > make him a prefect? Unless Dumbledore chose him to help protect > Harry in the future, I would think that his ordinary grades and lack > of leadership would eliminate him from the process. One would think > Seamus or Dean would be better prefect material than Ron. Well, even if everything you say about Ron is true, the TOGA principle could always apply. TOGA = The Only Guy Available. Harry is eliminated from consideration because of everything else that is going on in his life. Neville's grades are almost certainly worse than Ron's, and at the start of Fifth Year, he doesn't really show much sign of leadership potential. Dean and Seamus *might* have better grades than Rone, and *might* have greater leadership potential, but there's no real reason to suppose they do. Ron may simply be the best choice out of what's available. But also understand that good marks aren't really that essential for a prefect. It's a bonus, but prefect should not really be a office given on the basis of academic performance. What's important is *character* - and Ron is shown as being both brave when he needs to be, and loyal when he needs to be - two very important factors in his character. In terms of leadership - well, I don't think Ron shows any real signs of being a great leader - but he really hasn't had the opportunity to do so, in his life. He's lived in the shadow of five older brothers with dominant personalities. And since starting at Hogwarts, he's always been in Harry's shadow. If he'd had a real chance to show leadership and hadn't done so, I'd be worried - but he hasn't had a chance. Understand that a prefect at a school is *still* a pupil, and as such the school is generally still concerned with teaching and moulding the pupil. Being a prefect is often meant to be a learning experience for the prefect - as well as a position of authority. It's quite often a position given to people on the basis that they have *potential* that is so far untapped. Ron is being given a chance to show his potential - and given three of his brothers have been prefects (one a Head Boy) and the other two are leaders in other ways, it's certainly likely that it's considered possible he has a great deal of potential. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 13:27:33 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:27:33 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius lure Severus into the Willow? (was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105772 Kneasy wrote: There is one aspect of this whole affair that (so far) no-one has managed to explain: Just what did Sirius tell Snape and why did Snape believe him? They distrusted, perhaps even detested each other, yet we are expected to believe that Snape would *ask* Sirius to divulge 'secret' information and that Sirius would supply it. IIRC canon states that Sirius *told* Snape how to get past the Whomping Willow, so it's not a question of eavesdropping on a conversation. Neri: My take on this is like that: Sirius just drops one taunting detail, like "What, Snivellus, you still didn't figure out how the door in the Whomping Willow works? It's the knob right beneath the bottom limb, stupid. But you'd better not try it. You know no one is allowed to go in there" (I can't do the British accent, sorry). This would be quite enough. Severus' curiosity is burning, he knows or guesses that the Marauders go in there, and he can't stand that they know more than him, and that they get away with breaking the rules. He sure knows that Sirius doesn't mean well telling him that, but this is obviously a dare, and Severus is 16, the age when passing on a dare is next to impossible. And how else can he find out what the Marauders are up to and get them expelled? It might take several frustrating full moons, but in the end he goes in there. It's practically unavoidable. Kneasy: The eventual out-come was not foreseeable at this stage. Sirius says that he wanted to "teach Snape a lesson." Some lesson. The back-lash should have been epic, no matter what transpired. Neri: Agreed. Like James, Sirius was 16 and an idiot. Severus too wasn't showing much foresight. All of them were very stereotypical 16. I shudder to think Harry is just entering this age. Kneasy: But it wasn't, for one reason - DD hushed it up. And this leads on to the most unbelievable bit of all - Snape kept his mouth shut. He told no-one what had happened. Given what we know about Snape, is that credible? He has information that would get Lupin, Sirius, James, Peter and DD into really serious hot water and he'd probably end up looking like a hero to concerned parents - and he does nothing. How did DD 'persuade' him to co-operate? Threaten to expel him? Wouldn't work - it would give Snape even more incentive to pop round to the Daily Prophet offices to offer an exclusive - "Cover-up at Hogwarts! DD expels pupil whose sole concern was the safety of fellow students! Board of Govenors to investigate!" Neri: You forget one thing. James did run after Severus and saved his life. Snape belittles this in the Shack (in PoA), but we know that as late as SS/PS Snape had still considered himself in debt to James. So the shaken 16 yrs old Severus, who had just saw Death in the form of a full-blown werewolf and was dragged back by James, is likely to see it this way even more. Or perhaps it was DD who gently but surely pointed this to him, in the best of DD's style. Neri From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Mon Jul 12 13:49:55 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:49:55 -0000 Subject: ...HRH friendship - SS/PS the obstacle course was meant for HRH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105773 vmonte: > > Professor Sprout's Devil's Snare ? Hermione figures this out. Halli: > Well anyone could figure that out if they ever paid an inkling of > attention in Herbology. And if it wasn't geared at HRH, then it was > geared at an adult wizard, who would probably know this stuff > anyways. SSSusan: But if you hold to the theory that vmonte & I do, then it's NOT a given that this was geared to an adult wizard. [See below.] vmonte: > > It is unusual that Snape's obstacle has to do with logic, not > > potions. I think that out of all of these obstacles, Snape's > > really seems geared for Voldemort. Halli: > It has to do with potions, obviously, and I would also like to > point out that these obstacles are actually obstacles. They aren't > thinking about whats the easiest thing I could come up with that > even a bunch of first years could break through? SSSusan: That's PRECISELY the point--a bunch of first years *did* break through!! And two of those first-years have just this year been introduced to the WW, so it's not like they've been sitting around w/ a family filled w/ witches & wizards, learning & practicing spells their whole lives. I *do* believe HRH are each quite gifted in their own ways, but there are things they DON'T know as 1st years that 5th years or 7th years or adults would know...yet this little bunch of 1st years DID break through! So if they could do it, then how would this setup have been powerful enough to have REALLY stop an adult wizard? HRH getting through is precisely the fodder people like vmonte & I needed for our theory that DD set this up for Harry [my view] or for HRH [vmonte's view]. Halli: > I doubt that DD sat down and thought "Hmm, Harrys good at flying, > we'll do that, Hermione's smart, so she can solve this...Ron! Ron > can play chess! I'll have Minerva do that!" ...Just seems highly > unlikely that he prepared it specifically for a bunch of first year > students when there were actual dark wizards who could easily break > through something set at that level of difficulty, and who were > after the stone. I'm sorry it just seems to dangerous an artifact > to allow VM to get his hands on it simply because they think > Harrys going to get to it. Too risky. SSSusan: Well, to me it doesn't seem so unlikely. :-) I'm not thinking DD thought out every single step like that, but perhaps he instructed his colleagues to develop tasks which weren't simple but weren't impossible either? Remember that there are all sort of wards & protections around Hogwarts and that DD seems to pretty much know what's happening around the castle. It's not as if any old wizard could appear at Hogwarts and waltz in, unnoticed. [Hence the shock when Sirius did it in PoA.] I think that DD didn't realize Voldy himself was so near and didn't count on the events unfolding on the one night when he was away from Hogwarts. But I also think he counted **very heavily** on his final protection--the Mirror--because it was set up such that one whose motives weren't pure, one who wanted to use the SS for selfish purposes, would NEVER be able to get it because the mirror wouldn't allow it. It was brilliant! And should Harry just *happen* to get there, DD knew Harry'd become familiarized with the mirror and, if his motives were pure [as they were, which I believe thrilled DD to learn], then he WOULD be able to get it. Voila! Brilliant on DD's part, really. All IMHO, of course. Siriusly Snapey Susan From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Mon Jul 12 13:49:34 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:49:34 -0000 Subject: ESE!LUPIN HELP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105774 >>> "Jason" wrote: > Alright, Ive been searching for something close to 2 hours now and I > havent come close to finding the original Post and thread on this. > Anyone got a road map or post number for me? Bren now: Oh no! That must've been *really* frustrating! I just found the original thread of ESE!Lupin theory, it was rather quick (sorry about that) I believe the original post was Message 39362 by Pippin, called "Lupin is an honest, nasty, DISLOYAL person (who is ever so evil)" Take it away! Bren From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Jul 12 14:41:01 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:41:01 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius lure Severus into the Willow? (was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105775 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > Neri: > You forget one thing. James did run after Severus and saved his life. > Snape belittles this in the Shack (in PoA), but we know that as late > as SS/PS Snape had still considered himself in debt to James. So the > shaken 16 yrs old Severus, who had just saw Death in the form of a > full-blown werewolf and was dragged back by James, is likely to see > it this way even more. Or perhaps it was DD who gently but surely > pointed this to him, in the best of DD's style. > But even if he did consider he owed something to James he owed nothing to Sirius or Lupin, or DD come to that. He could tell his tale and the solids would hit the fan, spattering everyone except himself. Small correction: it's DD who suggests that Snape's 'life debt' might be a factor in the way he feels about James. He uses it as a reason, an excuse, for Snape saving Harry from Quirrell's broom-stick hex, so that he could go back to hating James in peace. Personally, I think this is some of DD's flim-flam; he's presenting Harry with a credible reason for Snape's actions, one that Harry will understand and accept; the more so since it makes James look good. I think it's more complicated than that. Remember - in PoA chap 14, Harry reminds Snape that James saved his life and Snape's reaction doesn't indicate any feeling of debt or forgiveness at all. He lumps all the Marauders together and suggests James only rescued him because he got cold feet, that James was primarily saving himself and his friends. Saving Snape was just a means to an end. Snape never mentions a 'life debt', might never even consider it applicable, since it was one of James's friends that put him in danger of his life anyway. The way he behaves in Shrieking Shack II, the estatic Gotcha! reaction; the revenge he can almost taste - "Two more for Azkaban" - is almost obscene. He's been waiting for this for a long, long time. I see Sevvy as a vengeful type - he'd want his pound of flesh, to see his enemies humiliated. Somehow DD put the blocks on it. I'd love to know how and I'd love to know why Snape still trusts him. Kneasy From quigonginger at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 14:44:40 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:44:40 -0000 Subject: Stag question for our British friends Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105776 This has been bugging me, so I'm getting it out and hoping to clear it up in my mind. Being a midwestern US person, I have never heard the word "stag" except in reference to "stag parties" (guys getting together to do Heaven only knows what) or "going stag" (being without a date). I was only familiar with the word from reading "the Lion, the Which, and the Wardrobe" in which the kids stumble back into England after attempting to catch a white stag, which they had hoped would grant them wishes. I had asked what a stag was, and was told it was a deer. Here in ND, we use 3 words for deer: 1) fawn, a baby deer, 2) doe, a female deer, and 3) buck, a male deer. I'll let you get Julie Andrews out of your heads ;-) So I looked in my American dictionary, and there was quite the difference between stag and buck. Buck is a male deer or antelope (snip all the other definitions that have nothing to do with the topic). Stag is "a young male red deer...also other various kinds of deer... a young unbroken stallion... a male animal castrated after maturity...compare to steer..." Am I reading too much into this? Is James meant to be "castrated"? Or "unbroken"? Or is buck just not commomly used in British vocabulary? Ginger, who had to ask what Prongs meant, so is probably barking up a nonexistant tree here. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Jul 12 14:58:54 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:58:54 -0000 Subject: Stag question for our British friends In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105777 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "quigonginger" wrote: > > Here in ND, we use 3 words for deer: 1) fawn, a baby deer, 2) doe, a > female deer, and 3) buck, a male deer. I'll let you get Julie > Andrews out of your heads ;-) > > So I looked in my American dictionary, and there was quite the > difference between stag and buck. > > Buck is a male deer or antelope (snip all the other definitions that > have nothing to do with the topic). > > Stag is "a young male red deer...also other various kinds of deer... > a young unbroken stallion... a male animal castrated after > maturity...compare to steer..." > > Am I reading too much into this? > Is James meant to be "castrated"? > Or "unbroken"? > Or is buck just not commomly used in British vocabulary? No problem. In general usage 'stag' refers to a male red deer - the OED says that it refers to one more than five years old, so it's liable to have a full set of antlers. "Buck' is usually applied to the males of other types of deer: roe or fallow deer especially. (Or rabbits!) Kneasy From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 14:59:19 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:59:19 -0000 Subject: Ron as prefect? In-Reply-To: <40F31DD3.15778.E5F90E@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105778 Shaun wrote : > Ron is being given a chance to show his potential - and given three > of his brothers have been prefects (one a Head Boy) and the other > two are leaders in other ways, it's certainly likely that it's > considered possible he has a great deal of potential. Del replies : I think that's 2 of his brothers who were Head Boys : Bill and Percy. And as many of us on this site have noticed, Ron belongs to the same sub-group of Weasley brothers, at least physically if not mentally. Maybe DD saw that too, and figured that Ron could become Head Boy, just like his brothers. Del From donpietro69 at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 12 01:53:25 2004 From: donpietro69 at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Lee=20Moyo?=) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 02:53:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DD's message to Hagrid and wand light (Was: Boggart/ Patronus Musings) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040712015325.24935.qmail@web25107.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105779 Gielreta wrote: >Carol: > A note here for what it's worth. We've seen several spells involving > red or green light (also red and green sparks sent as signals), two > spells (apparently) involving silver light, and one (the Phoenix song > with the duelling wands--not sure whether that qualifies as a spell) > involving golden light. Nothing so far involving blue or purple that I > recall. Gielreta: Actually, the spell that wounded Hermione in the DoM was purple. I don't know what the spell is, but it is obviously quite dangerous. Also, JKR has described several things as violent purple, including one version of Tonks's hair and the Knight Bus. Also, the both the curse that hit Hermione and the flames in the logic puzzle in SS were both described as "purple flames." Don't know if this helps, but I think that purple is prevalent. Gielreta Lee Sorry again to butt in late, but yes i agree with Gielreta. It is also known, from science studies at school that purple is the colour purple (no pun intended on the film) that represents "most lethal or most dangerous or most poisoners" (i think we get the idea most). And we all know she is has children and she most probable will know this and that this is universal sign. So using purple for books that have to be read world wide would help in the understanding for them. Especially as a lot is written in the perspective of British so things like this will help more people relate --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Mon Jul 12 15:04:36 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:04:36 -0000 Subject: The sounds of the Last post WAS ( Re:James the Berk? ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105780 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > > Valky wrote : > > It was a Dark Arts Curse, Snape was serious in battle with James, deadly serious. > > Del wrote: > "You know, Valky, we still haven't got a definition of what > constitutes Dark Magic." > > Valky: > Why, it's obvious, isn't it ? Anything Snape uses at that time IS Dark Magic, that was his preferred style then, right?" ;D > Del: "You know, Valky, I studied Physics in University, which means that I had to do a good deal of Maths, which are a thoroughly logical field where you have to justify every single deduction you make. An argument like yours would have been shot down in no time : Snape liked Dark Magic, so he would preferably use Dark Magic, so whatever he used had to be Dark Magic. It's so full of holes that it would probably give a heart attack to some Maths teachers :-)" > Valky:(absolutely rolling on the floor) REALLY! So do I! Small world huh, no wonder your debate style is so appealing to me. Oh and I deduce that you meant both are a thoroughly logical field, yes? ;D Of course it's full of holes! You backed me into the proverbial corner with your post. I just threw one at you to save my neck. It's not all that bad, really. You said yourself he knew more curses than most 7th years. If he was that well versed in them *logically* one of those would be the most infallible attacks he could throw at James, since they were above James' level. Rationally, doing so could have made the fight more winnable for Snape. So it's likely. And that's, an argument, *not* full of holes. LOL By the Way, at this point I had better explain my title for this post. Unfortunately for me, my next semester has started, and though I am having the time of my life here, I must herald the piper and be on my way. To the degree that I simply won't have so much time to put the same amount of soul into this debate for now. Besides which, I truly believe that we have already both argued exceptional cases in the affirmative and negative for now and sadly I must admit there comes a time when the debate must be left to the judgement of it's audience. So with the exception of whatever you need to say in closing Del, I suggest we retire the debate, as of this post. Now, back to the highwire for me for my final (and hopefully worthy of my opponent) round. > Del : > Well, let's agree to disagree then, because in my mind he was > entitled to use whatever means he could. He had been attacked for > no reason, and not given a proper chance to defend himself. Valky: > "Why do you use 'defend' as a Snape operative in that sentence? It doesn't fit with all his other actions in the memory or anywhere else, for that matter. Why do you think he would merely have defended himself? > > > Del: Because Snape had been *attacked*, which means that whatever he did next would be legally considered as defense. > Valky: Verbally attacked, yes. Which calls for a verbal defense. Isn't anything else a counter-attack rather than a defense ? So perhaps you are saying he would have chosen the "silencio" spell. :D Geez, I am gonna miss this! Del: > Being willing to humiliate someone that thoroughly is the antithesis of nobility in my idea. > > Valky : > My only argument is that it isn't really relevant to my mention of nobility in James because I absolutely believe he abandoned all sense of being right or good the moment he felt the humiliation of Lily's rejection. ******Which is why I soooo *totally didn't* want to be made to argue this in this context.********* > > Del : > So it went something like : The girl I fancy has just opposed > and refused me in public, so now I'm really pissed off, so I'll just thoroughly humiliate my favourite adversary, just to calm myself down ? But that's horrible, Valky ! > Valky: Ohhh I knew you'd find a way to contextualise it for this point! At least I never underestimated you hey ? 8| Horrible may be too strong a word, she didn't just reject *him*. She rejected all HIS notions that he WAS all these things I am arguing. He was able to glaze over her calling him a bullying toerag, but when she says to him you're as bad as he is, well... he's stunned, I would never call you that word, he says.... he really thinks that he is doing the world a favour by being opposed to Snape, he was sure Lily would get that..... He's obviously stumped by it all, he really seems to ask the question of himself "Why is what I am as bad as what Snape is?" He asks Sirius for help and eventually finds himself frustrated by his feelings. Then he does the unthinkable and takes it all out on Snape. It's not OK *OR* justified, just to make that point, there are some pretty strong feelings at work in James there, thats all. Del: > Moreover, I believe that nobility is a character trait : it doesn't > just disappear because one is upset. Quite the contrary in fact : > nobility is one of those qualities that are most remarkable because > they express themselves in conditions when you would not expect them. Nobility is *exactly the opposite* of picking up a fight for no > reason, or taking your own frustration on someone else. > Valky: Absolutely, a fine response Del. As I never really included much to the point defining in what way he was upset, you did really sink me with this. I have to speak in response, because I never really intended for it to seem like I was saying he was *just* upset and abandoned all his principles. It was his principles, his nobility that Lily shot down, something he really believed was *good* about him was thrown to fire and a reputation he had sought to build was turned to nothing in the eyes of the person to whom he wanted it to matter the most of all. Strong feelings at work, is all I have to say to close my argument. > Valky wrote, about Lily saying that Snape was no better than James : Ok this is one of those 'things you don't mean, but do mean' things. 1. Lily was furious! You say things you don't mean when your furious. (It's good enough for those people on the list who use it to claim that Snape wasn't really a racist in the scene :p) > > Del replies : I disagree with both beliefs. Snape uttered a racist statement, which indicates to me that he held racist beliefs. And Lily stated that she found James no better than Snape *and* she even explained why, which indicates to me that she despised James just as much as Snape. > Valky: Well actually the particle went that way then stopped and went back the other direction and I REALLY don't think there was all that much change in the second direction to attract the particle. ;D There may have been an attractant force, in the second direction, acting on the particle all along. Ok, enough of that Valky, I don't think James was all that wrong in thinking that his qualities were attractive to Lily. She did *almost* laugh at James tipping Snape when Snape attacked from behind. And Sirius the co-bully, especially, didn't abandon James when James went through this *amazing transformation* we all debate he did, or didn't, need to win Lily's heart. No, the inner James was always the same. He learned to express himself in a more positive way and that was fine with Sirius and fine with Lily, and that's that. > Valky wrote : > > 2. Sirius and Lupin floo conversation..... "Lily never hated James" I put a little more weight on this statement, obviously, than you do. (btw how on earth did Sirius' words become the ones we can question? Why is he a liar?) > > Del replies : > I believe that Lily *despised* James at the time of the Pensieve > scene, not that she hated him. And I don't think she hated Snape > either, for that matter. > And I don't think Sirius would outright lie. But James was his best > friend, he's dead, Snape is not, and all those things happened years and years ago. I would be very surprised if he didn't do a bit of rewriting History. Not changing things altogether, but modifying > details and motives and the general atmosphere. We all do, why not > Sirius ? > Valky: Treading a semantic fine line, Del? I thought you were a scientist. ;P If we debate meaning of a word, we'll be here all century. So I'll just say, Lily spoke out at James actions with a bit of insult for good measure, or effect what have you. Her last flay at him was mostly confined to his appalling choices in behaviour, for the most she could see, that was, what was wrong with him, and it certainly would taint whatever is inside because, gosh darn it, we've been debating just that for some very long posts now............. deep breath ..... James had likely done some homework on Lily , he was indeed very crushing on her already; he was bright, according to MacGonagall; and he was completely unabashed of his behaviour until Lily pointed out to him that it didn't impress her. If he *honestly* thought that a girl like Lily couldn't possibly respect him for *something*, *anything* he was doing in the pensieve scene then surely he would have been blushing red and profoundly apologising the moment she appeared in his view. No, absolutely he thought that he was being Brave and Noble and that Lily would entirely agree that "Snape existing" was full and just cause to stand over and demonstrate him a fool. > Valky wrote : > > For now, I am simply not convinced that James needed to change all > > that drastically. > > Del replies : > Lily was, and she knew James better than you do ;-P > Valky: Oh yes! Better than we all do, for now............ Phew, great stuff Del! My hat's off to you for your remarkable sportsmanship and fabulous argument. Thankyou very much for a good clean fight. Now I bid a fond Adieu. I will be, intermittently, available to keep my promise that I would defend James to the 11th of never, the confirmed Half Blood Prince release date as I have it :P (Just kidding to JKR I know it will be worth any wait she needs to get it finished) Best to you All Valky From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Mon Jul 12 15:02:57 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:02:57 -0000 Subject: Return from the Underworld in Ancient Mythology (Re: Sirius Black) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105781 > > > mhbobbin wrote: > > There have been many excellent comments on this ancient myth- > related theory. My personal take on it is that in each case of returning from the Underworld in Classic Mythology, there is some negotiation and then some condition put upon the event. So even in Ancient Mythology there's more to it than knowing where the entrance is and knowing how to get past the giant three headed dog.(Just where is Fluffy these days?) No doubt JKR will devise her own twists on the rules should she pursue a story line like this. > > > > Carol responded: > > As one who is quite happy to leave Sirius as he is and get on with the story, I may be a bit prejudiced here. But I think it's quite possible that we've already had our symbolic journey into the "underworld," complete with a three-headed dog bought from a "Greek chappie" (significance, anyone?) in Book 1. (BTW, that's another place where the filmmakers messed up, changing the nationality of the "chappie.") > > adi wrote: > Well, that track is already used in OOTP. In every epic, the hero > is taken midway to the underworld by a prophetess where he gets to > meet his lost parent and gets to know rest of his destiny. The entire plot of OOTP was based on this element. Harry went to the underworld, here, the department of mysteries which is underground and that veil thing and finds the prophecy. <<< Bren now: Hmm. Haven't thought about it that way before. Perhaps that's what is hidden behind that door in Department of Mysteries -- Underworld. Or what about Harry's trial in the beginning of OoP? That was held underground as well... This convinces me more and more that D-Dore didn't make mistake of telling Harry of the prophecy in fact, he was planning on something like this to happen... He *meant* Harry to go to the Underworld... >>> Adi contunues: The prophetess element was played by Luna and Sybill combined. Notice the trick on their names. A sybil is a prophetess and the particular sybil who took Aeneas to underground was Deiphobe or in other words Luna as both are related to the moon. The lost parent part was played a bit before when Harry gets to see how his parents were like in thier infancy and a bit when Sirius lost his life. I think the senior Potter's track will be played a bit longer but Sirius's chapter is closed. <<< Bren now: I'm not familiar with the story Adi mentioned at all (especially the one with sybil and Aeneas) but I do believe Sirius' chapter isn't closed yet, quite the contrary -- I think his legacy is about to open up. It seems to me (and I've mentioned this) that JKR went extra length to create a complicated character and then disposed him rather quickly. After all, one of HP book is dedicated to Sirius Black and another heavily dependent upon his presumable "death"... Combine SAD DENIAL to JKR's comment about the Two-Way Mirror on her website... >>> Adi wrote: > Maybe we should read the epics again, Odyssey and Aeneid, to guess > what happens after the undeground travel. Although I liked the > suggestion that the original blood prince was Dracula. Bren now: Original blood prince was Dracula?!?! Then does that make Vampire!Snape the Half Blood Prince?!?! Lol... By the way, if anyone is familiar with it, what is the canon supporting Vampire!Snape (besides the fact that Lupin set the essay after Snape's Werewolf assignment)? Brenda From donpietro69 at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 12 02:18:51 2004 From: donpietro69 at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Lee=20Moyo?=) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 03:18:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] DD's message to Hagrid and wand light (Was: Boggart/ Patr... In-Reply-To: <1e1.25153bd1.2e2223eb@aol.com> Message-ID: <20040712021851.62277.qmail@web25110.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105782 Batchevra at aol.com wrote: >Carol responds: Although I agree that DD's Patronus is probably a Phoenix (I also see a stong Phoenix/Gryffindor or Fawkes/Gryffindor connection), I don't recall the silvery light that shot from DD's wand as he summoned Hagrid being Phoenix-shaped. (I could be wrong here; if you have the quote handy, by all means supply it.) I did wonder, though, when I read that passage, what kind of spell DD could be casting since it didn't have any connection with Dementors and was definitely not a Patronus.< GOF, Pg 560, US version in the chapter of The Madness of Mr. Crouch. He raised his wand into the air and pointed it in the direction of Hagrid's cabin. Harry saw something silvery dart out of it and streak away through the trees like a ghostly bird. I thought that since the Order was the Order of the Phoenix it was a phoenix that Dumbledore sent to summon Hagrid. Also, since COS, Dumbledore and Fawkes seem very close, and when Dumbledore says to Harry that you must have shown me loyalty that called Fawkes into the Chamber. Then Fawkes In OOTP both takes Dumbledore out of harm and takes an AK for him. Batchevra Lee: This may be off topic, but could it be that DD is actually Godric Gryffindors last heir. I mean he has his hat and sword, and probably his bird (Fawkes that is) and has a lot in his office symbolising Gryffindor. Or it could have been Gryffindor's office, of which he chooses to use. I am presuming here of course that if it is Gryffindors office, then the others have offices to. Just a thought Lee From donpietro69 at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 12 02:11:46 2004 From: donpietro69 at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Lee=20Moyo?=) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 03:11:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Was Harry Born a Muggle? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040712021146.55131.qmail@web25109.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105783 gelite67 wrote: My personal theory as to why LV couldn't kill Harry: Snape was there and interfered b/c he was in love with Lily. He arrived too late to save her, but he saved Harry so that part of her would live on. My alternative theory is that LV got it wrong and Neville was the person referred to in the prophesy. Harry was born a Muggle but became a wizard when LV transferred some of his powers to him (marked him as his equal). LV could only kill the infant who was mentioned in the prophesy; since Harry wasn't the infant, LV couldn't kill him. There are references to LV killing Muggles, but no other references to him killing infants, I don't think. Just a theory . . . ready to be shot down. Angie Lee: I disagree with your second theory. If we are to take the prophecy to be accurate, then as DD pointed out, he may have made a mistake, but the fact that Harry, is the marked one, and not Neville, and the fact that He, LV would attempt this him self and as to Neville who the attempt never took place and other criteria which happened to Harry on the night in question but did not happen to Neville mean that Harry is the correct one and not Neville. It could have turned out the other way but for that to happen then, it would have to be Neville who had the scare and the rest of the other criteria. Read the prophesy and what DD has to say and then I think it all ties up that way. From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Jul 12 15:07:22 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:07:22 -0000 Subject: ...HRH friendship - SS/PS the obstacle course was meant for HRH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105784 SSSusan: > I think that DD didn't realize Voldy himself was so near and didn't > count on the events unfolding on the one night when he was away from > Hogwarts. But I also think he counted **very heavily** on his final > protection--the Mirror--because it was set up such that one whose > motives weren't pure, one who wanted to use the SS for selfish > purposes, would NEVER be able to get it because the mirror wouldn't > allow it. It was brilliant! And should Harry just *happen* to get > there, DD knew Harry'd become familiarized with the mirror and, if > his motives were pure [as they were, which I believe thrilled DD to > learn], then he WOULD be able to get it. Jen: OK Susan, I'm getting more and more convinced that you're right about this issue ;). I wasn't convinved Sat., but you and Vivian put forth some very compelling evidence. I have just one teeny, tiny problem with it though: If Dumbledore did believe Harry would try to go down the trapdoor, and DD helped him prepare for it, I see a glaring inconsistency in the characterization of Dumbledore. Dumbledore can prepare Harry for a possibly life-threatening situation, but he can't look at him in OOTP? He can send him off to fight trolls and murderous chess pieces, but keeps Harry in the dark throughout much of OOTP, for his *safety*? Which is it Dumbledore, are you a hands-off "people learn by experience" kind of guy, or a dispassionate micromanager? I don't know. It's one of those areas where you can really tell the difference in JKR's writing-style from PS to OOTP. I suppose it's just a plot thing, Harry is maturing so the POV is maturing, but that doesn't satisfy me. The only way I can resolve this for myself is to believe Dumbledore expected to be nearby to help Harry, if he got in over his head. But it still bothers me :). Disgruntled!Jen From ms-tamany at rcn.com Mon Jul 12 15:11:18 2004 From: ms-tamany at rcn.com (ms_tamany) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:11:18 -0000 Subject: Harry uses Hermione's wand to kill Volemort? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105785 > Carol posits: > > > P.S. As to the core of Hermione's wand, which as you said in a snipped > > portion of the post, we don't know, there are of course only three > > possibilities. Since Ron's is a unicorn hair and Harry's is a Phoenix > > feather, I think it's a safe bet that Hermione's is a dragon's > > heartstring. > > > > Carol > > > Then Melissa counters: > > I don't think that there are only 3 possibilities. We learned in GOF that > Veela Hair can be used in a wand's core. I'd venture a guess that there are > more possibilties out there than just the ones we've heard about. > > Melissa Now I (Tammy) suggest: Although we don't have any canon proof of where Hermione obtained her wand, the highest probability is that she got it at Olivander's, just like Harry did his. After all, Olivander's is THE place to go for wands, isn't it? ;-) Olivander himself says in SS/PS (paraphrasing, 'cause my books are tucked somewhere and I don't want to dig them out right now) that he only uses three core substances: unicorn hair, phoenix feather, and dragon heartstring. He says in GOF that he doesn't work with veela hairs because he finds them too temperamental. Obviously, he is familiar with them as a core and has chosen not to bother with their attendant problems. Just as obviously, other wandmakers (and he tells us there are others) *do* use veela hairs. It's very easy to assume that other core materials are also in use, by other wandmakers. I think it's safe to assume that Hermione's wand is an Olivander Original, as Harry's is, and as Ron's new wand most likely is, too. It would provide a certain symmetry for the Trio's wands to each have one of the trio of core materials that Olivander uses in his wands. We know how much Jo loves symmetry! So, while we can still only guess at Hermione's wand core, I'd have to agree with Carol that it's a safe bet that hers is dragon heartstring. --- *** Tammy Rizzo ms-tamany at rcn.com From donpietro69 at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 12 03:01:22 2004 From: donpietro69 at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Lee=20Moyo?=) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 04:01:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Royalty in WW after all? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040712030122.65327.qmail@web25110.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105786 Jacqui wrote: Ok, I have way to much time on my hands here I was just looking through something when I came across this. Not sure what it could mean, if anything: Andromeda was the princess of Ethiopia, daughter of Cepheus and Cassiopeia. That would give us our royalty aspect of HBP. I was looking up Andromeda on the Lexicon but there is virtualy nothing on her. All we know is that she married Ted Tonks (Whom we know NOTHING about)...do we know anything else? Does Tonks have a brother???? Lee: I am going out on a limb here and on memory but this could be something. Correct me if I am wrong but Andromeda married a muggle, or half blood, which is Ted Tonks and their daughter was Nymphadora (The Tonks) and we all know that the Blacks thought being Black practically made you to be like Royalty. So maybe it could be Tonks. And she has already shown to be closer to the younger people than the others. not to mention that she can change her appearance at will. I am going to read the book more in detail and see if there is something to go on here Lee, who is about to go to bed reading the relevent chapters From cruthw at earthlink.net Mon Jul 12 04:25:40 2004 From: cruthw at earthlink.net (caspenzoe) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 04:25:40 -0000 Subject: Re PoA Question (foreshadowing books 6 & 7) In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20040711201441.021fa238@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105787 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lissa Hess wrote: > Okay, this SEEMS like it should belong on another list, but it > doesn't. Really. > > Ever since I read OotP, I've wondered about the relationship between Sirius > and Lupin. I don't normally read too much into these things, but I really > thought Sirius and Lupin read like a couple. (Keep reading....) > > I'm sure the reasons I actually think Sirius and Lupin had something going > have been gone over and over, because I know this is not an idea that I > alone am harboring, and there's definitely a nice quote there to foreshadow it: > > Professor Lupin: Sirius, be quiet... > Sirius Black: Go bite yourself, Remus! > Professor Snape: Listen to you two, quarrelling like an old married couple. > > Why do I think it's important? > > On the one hand, it almost seems like JKR may be tossing out little clues > to amuse the slashers out there. She may never mention yea or nea, because > it may not affect the plot. On the other hand... [Snip!] [Unsnip!] Anyway, I think Sirius is going to be the key. I don't think that > Harry has comprehended how deep Lupin's grief over Sirius really runs, and > if he were to find out that Lupin had a romantic relationship with Sirius, > I think that he'd be incredibly deeply hurt. Not only with possibly being > squicked, but that neither of them ever considered him important enough to > tell this to. > > It's possible, and I wouldn't really put it past her. I also wouldn't > think anything of the line in the movie (beyond a serious giggle), but > since JKR has pointed out there are a few things that might foreshadow > Books 6 and 7, I raise my eyebrows at that one. > > I know it's certainly as unlikely as it is likely, but that was the first > thing my mind jumped to when she mentioned unintentional foreshawowing. > > Lissa Interesting theories! The thing I found most bizarrely non-textual in the POA movie was the huge proliferation of menhirs (the oblong stones standing/balanced straight up - I think that's the term) in Harry's woods-walk sceen with Lupin. The bridge was also a rather romantic back-drop for a male to male scene as well, discussion of Lilly notwithstanding (- and is a romantic back drop really appropriate to that context Harry's mother either?) Perhaps, however Cuaron is not really being so non-textual after- all, given the "old married couple" reference you provide. I'd assumed JKR's focus on Harry's various father figures beginning (esp.) in book three had to do with lending some verisimilitude to her portrayal of male adolescent angst, as well as furthering her identity theme. I think some amount of homoeroticism is inherent in that process, but maybe she really is going somewhat further with it? Adding to it the overall theme of "normality" as an anti-value lends a really interesting perspective. Thanks. Casey From christin.gahnstrom at telia.com Mon Jul 12 10:37:37 2004 From: christin.gahnstrom at telia.com (cgahnstrm) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:37:37 -0000 Subject: Severus Snape's character In-Reply-To: <1e9.24d386e8.2e238491@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105788 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, juli17 at a... wrote: > 4. Snape's Boggart and Patronus? > > I don't really have a clue! I do think Snape has both though. I am > wondering if his Boggart might be whatever drove him from Voldemort's > side. Something he was nearly forced to do, but realized he couldn't > go through with? Or, something he did, and then regretted enough > to leave? I wouldn't be surprised if Snapes boggart turns out to be the shouting man from his childhood memories. Christin (hoping we'll know for sure in book six) From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Mon Jul 12 13:05:46 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:05:46 -0000 Subject: My take on the Half-blood Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105789 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pcaehill2" wrote: > > Aggie wrote: > [snip] > > Darn and Blast! I had the brain wave (think that should say brain > > ache though!!) that perhaps we'd been seeing this all wrong, that > > MAYBE just because it had been ONE of the titles for CoS we all > > assumed that the HBP in book 6 is going to be the same HBP that > would have been in book 2. I did wonder, if only for 2 minutes, if > they were in deed two different beings!! On JKR's web site she says > that it was an original title for CoS and that lots of info that was > > originally destined for CoS in now going to be in HBP, so it could > > still be a relevant theroy . . . couldn't it?. . . > > Pam responds: > > I agree; in choosing the HBP, JKR is not bound solely to characters > from CoS. She only specified who HBP *was not*. I think that > you're right--the material that was originally intended for CoS may > be info/plot/characters that didn't make it into CoS at all!! > > As I wrote earlier, I think the HBP may be eastern European, mostly > due to these reasons: > > 1) LV's years before his "rise to power" may have been spent in some > eastern European country, because LV sought refuge in that region on > at least two occasions: when he met Quirrel, and before he met > Wormtail. Perhaps he was already familiar with the region--maybe in > years past he had the company of Durmstrang graduates (also Slavic)? > > 2)OoP pointed out the need for the houses to stand together, and GoF > (maybe indirectly) the need for "international magical cooperation" > to defeat LV. > > 3) OoP also contains a reference to Charlie Weasley's presence in > Romania, and his effort to muster support from international wizards- > -this will surely be further developed in Book 6. > > 4) There are a great many references to slavic countries: Krum's > Bulgaria, Charlie's Romania, LV in Albania, and the unknown but > slavic location of Durmstrang. Aggie: Thanks for agreeing with my ramblings!! Gives me head ache all this conjecture and trying to second guess JKR!! Lots of people are with you on the Eastern European theme. EricOppen, whose post I was replying to, believes it to be Krum. I think this is possible and, as you say, the stress has been on the international ww working together. Charlie has been in Romania from book 1 but maybe that's WHY he was there! (Also to take in Norbert but that's by the by!) Not much is put into the WW by JKR that isn't important. . . .except 10 year old boys called Mark Evans. . . LOL! ;o)) From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Mon Jul 12 12:36:08 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:36:08 -0000 Subject: Snape and the meaning of courage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105790 Katie wrote: > >>Snape subscribes to a certain world view shared by many people > (though not by most of the HP characters), namely, the idea > of "strong" and "weak" (inferior) people, and all that goes along > with that. It is well summed up in Snape's explanation of what he > considers to be "weak": > "Fools who wear their hearts proudly on their sleeves, who cannot > control their emotions, who wallow in sad memories and allow > themselves to be provoked this easily..." > (I'd say it sounds like Snape is describing Sirius. I don't think > Snape fans and Sirius fans are opposing groups, but I DO think that > Snape and Sirius represent opposites in many ways.)<< HunterGreen: > I've always thought that Snape was describing himself in his younger > days (actually, it never occured to me that he was talking about > Sirius, although it does describe Sirius pretty well). I think he was > going off on a little tangent, some of which didn't really concern > Harry. Me,Aggie, Of course!! I knew I should have re-read the part where Snape says that. That was my original take on his words, the first time I read them! He considered himself weak when he was younger. D'Oh! I still thnk that he was referring to Sirius as well though. HunterGreen: As to his statement, it doesn't necessitate people being emotionless, > just not dictated by their emotions. He was trying to impress the > need to *control* emotion. Aggie: I agree, I was going to add an extra thought to my original reply post to this but I'll add it here instead! I stated earlier (if it ever gets on the list ;o)) that I believed he thought that being weak would more than likely end up with you being dead. If Harry hadn;t been so ruled by his emotions then he would have waited for confirmation that Sirius HAD been taken to the DoM and things would have worked out much differently. Hermione kept on trying to get this point across. Her logical mind (as someone pointed out earlier) realised that this was foolhardy and likely to end in disaster. She was constantly trying to get Harry to calm down and think before acting. This is what I would imagine Snape to do in the same situation. It's not that he's being 'cold' or emotionally retarded it's just their way. It's the philosphy of 'take a deep breath, count to 10 and think before you act'. Katie: > >> I'm sure that Snape's idea of courage has more to do with > preservation of one's image of self-control and superiority above all > else. That's not my idea of courage (though I'm sure there are some > out there who would disagree with me.)<< HunterGreen: Maybe that's not his idea of courage, but rather one of his personal > values? I think that Snape believes in courage in the face of > *anything*. Aggie: I agree with this Rebecca From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Mon Jul 12 14:47:14 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 12 Jul 2004 14:47:14 -0000 Subject: Word Power , Sorting, Diary Message-ID: <20040712144714.3336.qmail@webmail9.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105791 >> Carol, >> BTW, has anyone noticed the contrast between Dumbldore's practical, >> almost real-world approach to words and names (don't use euphemisms; >> call it by its name) and Gandalf's and Aragorn's in LOTR, where words >> do seem to have power It strikes me >> as odd that Dumbledore, who knows what words can do when used as >> spells, takes their power so lightly. Amey: My take on this is that, he is teaching others the power of words. I mean, look at the way all DEs react to the name of LV. They are either afraid of the name or they keep others from saying the name. How many times have we heard that Dumbledore can fearlessly say the name because he is the only wizard LV is afraid of. So, I think he is telling others that it has nothing to do with his power, but just a name. What matters here is the intention behind the words (like Harry found out when he tried to use Crucio). The simple words are not enough to cast the spell, the intention and the power (sometimes) of the person matters. Going slightly OT, in LOTR, the words are important because there more focus is on the spellwords, and as we can see at the gates of Moria, any person who can say the word (friend) can work out the spell (loosely used). So the focus of magic or spells in both the cases is entirely different. >> Jen, who doesn't think JKR would bother creating the mysterious >> Florence if she wasn't going to be important later on. Amey: I am feeling a touch of MarkEvansitis here. :D >> Del replies : >> I mean, honestly ! He even tried to *force* Lily to go out with him ! Amey: He wasn't forcing Lily to go with him. It was just a ploy. Even if Lily had agreed to this, I don't think James would have ceased teasing Snape (as we know he didn't.) *Snape was a special case as he also never lost a chance to hex James*. So it was just a question, the other part of it (I will never raise a wand on Snape) was inconsequential in both person's minds. >> Del replies : >> I stick >> to the facts :-) (Must be the Physics : try telling a Physics teacher >> "well yes, the particle went this way, but honestly I'm sure it meant >> to go *that* way instead." LOL !) Amey: Are you trying to apply laws of Physics and Logic to human emotions? They don't apply here. Otherwise 1. Snape is working for Order 2. Sirius is working for the same Order 3. They are working on same side, so they are friends. would be true. >> Cathy: >> I think the scene you're pointing to was DD telling Harry that, yes, indeed he did have >> several >> of the qualites Slytherin looked for in students but Harry, himself, chose Gryffindor and it >> is >> "our choices more than our abilites" that make us who we are. He then indicated that the >> sword >> had once belonged to Goderic Gryffindor and "only a true Gryffindor" could have removed it >> from >> the hat. Which would seem to indicate that the Sorting Hat can be wrong. Amey: This is not Sorting Hat being wrong. It saw properties of both the houses in Harry's head, and so it went for Harry's choice. After all, it is Gryffindor's hat, and if he put the brains in it, it is clearly going to put the person's choice above his abilities. (As we saw also in case of Hermione and most probably in case of Sirius and Neville). >> Del wonders : >> Interesting. Does that mean that Tom *intended* it for a girl to find >> and use the Diary ? Or is it just that customs have changed since >> Tom's time, when boys maybe wrote more often in diaries ? Amey: Need not be, but if a person wants to write something down, he will surely choose a diary or notebook, those are most common things which we associate with writing. Also, he planned to give it to his successor, who should be in Hogwarts as student, and the most common things students carry in Hogwarts for writing are parchment. Now it is anybody's guess why he chose diary above parchment (I mean, we don't have any canon here). But he was a muggleborn, and like Harry I think he might have found out that Parchments are not welcome in outside world. That will give his successor very little time to study it. Also, a person writing on a parchment over and pver again is slightly more open to suspicion (like we saw Snape suspicious of the Map), and also parchment is also more prone to being mislead by someone who doesn't know anything about it. A personal diary is kind of sacred, in the sense nobody will touch it, or take it. >> Del wonders : >> For all we know, Sirius seethed with rage for weeks. Amey: Again no canon. But I can say one thing for sure, his parents (especially his mother) must have seethed with rage. I wonder where Regulus landed up? >> Kneasy >> Does not compute. >> Snape asking is fanciful; him accepting what Sirius tells him >> at face value becomes far-fetched. Amey: We already know Snape was spying on Marauders. What if Sirius delibarately showed him how to go past the Willow? >> Kneasy >> It certainly adds a new dimension to the Snape/DD relationship. >> Why would Snape *ever* trust DD again? Amey: Well, whatever the history, everybody was sure that Dumbledore is only person to take on LV. So he knew if he has to help against LV, he must come back to Dumbledore. What made him decide to come back and what he told Dumbledore is of course open to discussion. Amey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aandj at labyrinth.net.au Mon Jul 12 13:23:33 2004 From: aandj at labyrinth.net.au (Jocelyn Grunow) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 00:23:33 +1100 Subject: SHIP Harry/Hermione/Ron In-Reply-To: <20040710153223.46831.qmail@web25109.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105792 Umm - I don't want to get too out there, folks, but why couldn't Hermione be attracted to them both? I personally do not subscribe to the 'one true love' theory which is so popular in the movies. I think there are many people out there that we could love. Some of them could love us back. If we're lucky enough, we find a match. So far I see quite good evidence of Ron being attracted to Hermione. I do not see any evidence that Harry has ever thought of Hermione that way. I suspect Hermione is attracted to both of them! Like Ginny, though, she knows when to cut her losses. And these are just kids. Admittedly I still think the guy I adored at 15 is the bees knees but he never looked twice at me. The guy I married is just wonderful - and he thinks I'm wonderful too! (Poor deluded fellow) _He's_ my life partner, and I didn't meet him until my 20s.... Oh and BTW, that guy I adored at 15 - he fell in love with my best friend that year, and it nearly killed me to see them together, but I hope I was a good enough friend never to let them suspect it. They did nothing wrong by loving each other. He just showed poor discrimination, that's all. ;-) Jocelyn From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Mon Jul 12 14:56:22 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:56:22 -0000 Subject: ...HRH friendship - SS/PS the obstacle course was meant for HRH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105793 SSSusan: > That's PRECISELY the point--a bunch of first years *did* break > through!! And two of those first-years have just this year been > introduced to the WW, so it's not like they've been sitting around w/a family filled w/ witches & wizards, learning & practicing spells > their whole lives. I *do* believe HRH are each quite gifted in their own ways, but there are things they DON'T know as 1st years that 5th years or 7th years or adults would know...yet this little bunch of > 1st years DID break through! So if they could do it, then how would > this setup have been powerful enough to have REALLY stop an adult > wizard? HRH getting through is precisely the fodder people like > vmonte & I needed for our theory that DD set this up for Harry [my > view] or for HRH [vmonte's view]. > SNIP > > Halli: > > I doubt that DD sat down and thought "Hmm, Harrys good at flying, > > we'll do that, Hermione's smart, so she can solve this...Ron! Ron > > can play chess! I'll have Minerva do that!" ...Just seems highly > > unlikely that he prepared it specifically for a bunch of first year > > students when there were actual dark wizards who could easily break > > through something set at that level of difficulty, and who were > > after the stone. I'm sorry it just seems to dangerous an artifact > > to allow VM to get his hands on it simply because they think > > Harrys going to get to it. Too risky. > > SSSusan: > Well, to me it doesn't seem so unlikely. :-) SNIP Aggie: Just to put my tuppence in, I agree with Halli (evil grin), I don't believe that DD sat down and thought"Hmm, Harry's good at...etc" NO! I believe that JK Rowling sat down and thought this!! ;o) This book was mainly geared towards children and most children would not look at this in as much depth as we are. She did not know what a run away success these books were going to be, she didn't know that she was going to be able to write the sequels to PS even though she had a plan of the next 6 years of Harry and co's life in her mind. I've seen a quote that JKR said that when started writing these books she didn't write them for children. I believe that she wrote PS for HERSELF. However it was aimed, upon release, to a child's market and thus had to be in tune with the children. I only discovered it because my eldest daughter brought it home from school one day! I think that the first 2 books were 'fluffed out' because of the child market they were being aimed at. That means I think the tasks etc were too easy for a RL view on the WW. Does that make sense? It was dumbed down. In essence I agree with both Halli AND SSSusan because they both have a valid point. The thought of DD risking the PS just to let HRH test themselves is almost laughable if we think of it as an adult making the tasks easy enough for 3 eleven yr olds to pass through without too much difficulty. The PS is an EXTREMELY important artifact and I had problems with the fact that it was so easy to get to. I know the end task of the mirror is all important, I'm just trying to get across my point! OTOH though, the tasks seemed to be geared towards HRH. It uses all their specific skills. It's too coincedental that they each use their talents and become triumphant! Pure and simply it's fluff!! But, I think that's just because JKR had to write it that way. IMHO ;o) From happybean98 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 15:03:23 2004 From: happybean98 at yahoo.com (happybean98) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:03:23 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat doesn't sort /WAS The sorting hat seems to think Harry... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105794 David wrote: > The Hat, as the collective mind of four pioneering educators, is > doing its job and trying to get Harry to broaden his mind. It > focuses on Harry's rather simplistic view of Slytherin and > challenges it, in a way that, if he thinks about it carefully, both > endorses the validity of membership of Slytherin and the abilities > of Harry himself: "Harry, you would do well *anywhere*. You would > have done well in Slytherin. Being in Slytherin would have been > good for you - but I don't regret putting you in Gryffindor." happybean98: This is an interesting interpretation of the Sorting Hat's motives - to reduce predjudice between the houses by suggesting Slytherin to Harry. However, my theory about the sorting hat is that it's actually doing less than what most are led to believe. Most believe that the sorting hat appraises each student and then decides what house to put them in. As though the hat was an "impartial judge" similar to the Goblet of Fire. But I don't agree. I think the sorting hat is simply "sorting" students by reading their thoughts and placing them where they want to be placed. Just a "legilimancy" charm placed on the hat. My canon support for this is in CoS Dumbledore says,"Yet the Sorting Hat placed you in Gryffindor. You know why that was. Think." "It only put me in Gryffindor," said Harry in a defeated voice, "because I asked not to go in Slytherin...." "Exactly," said Dumbledore..." CoS p. 333 So, this led me to believe that all the Sorting Hat is doing is reading each student's mind and placing him/her where they WANT to go. This is also supported by the fact that so far, we don't know of anyone who was sorted into a house they didn't want to be sorted in. When the sorting hat takes a long time to decide, it's actually the student that can't make up their mind, not the hat. The fact that the hat told Harry he would do well in Slytherin tells Dumbledore that Harry, (not the hat) is aware that he would do well in Slytherin. But that he chose Gryffindor - which is more important. The amusing irony of the Sorting Hat is that it illustrates how willing the students, (perhaps all of us?), are to think that a magical object or third party is more capable of knowing who they are than they are capable of knowing themselves. happybean98 From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Mon Jul 12 15:23:11 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:23:11 -0000 Subject: Who is berk and Slytherin reputation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105795 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > > Del wonders : > Interesting. Does that mean that Tom *intended* it for a girl to find > and use the Diary ? Or is it just that customs have changed since > Tom's time, when boys maybe wrote more often in diaries ? > That is an interesting question. Tom bought the diary himself, in Vauxhall Road, at a Muggle stationer's, sometime during the summer holidays. Unless his life at the orphanage was quite different from what we've been led to believe, nobody would have given it to him as a present. So why did he get it at all? He was poor, so it doesn't seem likely that he would have just bought it on a whim, because he liked the cover. Was he actually intending to keep a diary? Or did he get it with the express purpose of enchanting it, to keep a "copy" of himself in it? That shows a lot of forethought, and it makes me even more curious to know just what was going on in his life at this time. Wanda From srobles at caribe.net Mon Jul 12 15:22:55 2004 From: srobles at caribe.net (anasazi_pr) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:22:55 -0000 Subject: R & H - More in common than meets the eye (was Hermione's reaction) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105796 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "paul_terzis" wrote: > > > > > > aboutthe1910s wrote: > > I think my biggest issue with Harry and Hermione getting together > is > > the fact that, while we can argue all night about who, if anyone, > > Hermione is attracted to, Ron clearly is attracted to Hermione. > Now > > Ron has already had some jealousy issues with Harry, which came to > a > > boiling point in GoF, but, while Ron has realized that these issues > > are not worth not being friends with Harry over, I don't think Ron > has > > necessarily gotten entirely over them. > > > > If Harry and Hermione get together, I think it would be just too > cruel > > --on both JK's part and Harry's. I wouldn't blame Ron a bit for > being > > hideously pissed off at Harry, and I would hope that both Harry > and JK > > value the friendship between Harry and Ron more than that. Even > if Ron > > could get over it, it would destroy the balance in their > relationship-- > > Harry is the centerpiece in their relationship as far as he is the > leader > > and they are his sidekicks. If Hermione becomes something more > than Ron > > to Harry, it might not make Ron mean less absolutely speaking, but > it > > will relatively. Ron just doesn't deserve to be made to feel any > more > > secondary and overlookable than he already has. > > > > Besides, Ron is capable of standing up to Hermione's bossiness in a > > way that Harry has never prooved himself capable--he's too passive > for > > Hermione. I imagine that Harry would be something of whipped > puppy in > > a more than friends relationship with Hermione. > > > > a > > I can't believe my eyes. Your post has two main points: > 1) In the H/Hr scenario Ron character is certainly mistreated from > JKR and HP. > > reply: In love and war there are no restraints. If I were HP and I > had found my soulmate, named Hr, I would fight for her love even > with the devil himself. Of course in this situation where all are > best friends the best working scenario is the direct confrontation. > Face to face all three of them until the final resolution of the > case. But to expect HP to back down and to turn his back to > happiness which is his only desire throughout his hard life, > without a fight is out of the question. This is also an insult to > Ron character because he wins Hr only because HP backs down and not > because he is better than HP in the eyes of Hr. > > > 2) HP is a weak, subservient and without will person. > > reply:Do you honestly believe that? HP chooses carefully his battles > with Hr. If he doesn't have any interest to the subject in matter he > remains cool and calm but when he is resolved to do something, I > think he can put the fear of God to the bossy Hr. > > Cheers, > Paul I agree with you, Paul. As a H/Hr who's a HUGE Ron fan, I find that the reasons given above for H/Hr NOT to happen are very unfair to Ron. Yes, Ron has shown jealousy toward Harry before. But Ron has also grown as a person. Do you think he'll honestly feel jealous of the Boy-Who-Lived when he has seen what being Harry Potter is? Specially after Sirius death, I believe that Ron would want his best friend to be happy, even at the expense of his own happiness. I believe that Ron is insecure (as we all were when we were teenagers), but he's not a little boy who needs to have his ego stroke by his two best friends. If H/Hr did happen and Ron indeed had feelings for Hr, he will be heartbroken... and he will be angry... and then he will learn, grow up from the experience, and continue being the wonderful friend he has always been. Just my two knuts, Anasazi From weildman at comcast.net Mon Jul 12 14:12:43 2004 From: weildman at comcast.net (weildman) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 07:12:43 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT: Re: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201c4681a$4c8305b0$6400a8c0@Desktop> No: HPFGUIDX 105797 Laurasia: <<>> Katie: <<>> Trevor: I would also point out that Harry Potter is written as 7 distinct novels in one series where as LOTR was written as one book- the editors broke it into 3 parts for marketing concerns. The HP series therefore consists of much more distinct novels rather than one continuous book. As a more on topic thought, how do we know JKR hasn't pulled a Gandalf with Sirius? We, as well as all the characters, believe him dead. He may be, as a twist tradition but only JKR knows for sure. Downers are usually big parts of a good series (Empire Strikes Back, LOTR-TTT as published). They allow really good comebacks. Trevor From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 12 15:42:11 2004 From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:42:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Stag question for our British friends In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040712154211.58582.qmail@web25302.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105798 Hi Ginger UdderPD here My Oxford English Dictionary defines Stag as 'a male Dear especially Red Dear after its fifth year. Hope this helps. TTFN Udder PenDragon quigonginger wrote: This has been bugging me, so I'm getting it out and hoping to clear it up in my mind. Being a midwestern US person, I have never heard the word "stag" except in reference to "stag parties" (guys getting together to do Heaven only knows what) or "going stag" (being without a date). I was only familiar with the word from reading "the Lion, the Which, and the Wardrobe" in which the kids stumble back into England after attempting to catch a white stag, which they had hoped would grant them wishes. I had asked what a stag was, and was told it was a deer. Here in ND, we use 3 words for deer: 1) fawn, a baby deer, 2) doe, a female deer, and 3) buck, a male deer. I'll let you get Julie Andrews out of your heads ;-) So I looked in my American dictionary, and there was quite the difference between stag and buck. Buck is a male deer or antelope (snip all the other definitions that have nothing to do with the topic). Stag is "a young male red deer...also other various kinds of deer... a young unbroken stallion... a male animal castrated after maturity...compare to steer..." Am I reading too much into this? Is James meant to be "castrated"? Or "unbroken"? Or is buck just not commomly used in British vocabulary? Ginger, who had to ask what Prongs meant, so is probably barking up a nonexistant tree here. ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jferer at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 15:41:20 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:41:20 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105799 Del: "Hermione wasn't issued to Ron, agreed, but neither was she issued to Harry. What I meant was that Ron is always second-best to Harry : Harry's got the money, the fame (even if he doesn't want it), the talent, the better looks, and he was supposed to get the Prefect badge. But Ron doesn't care most of the time, because he's such a loyal friend. However, I think he would care very much if Harry started dating Hermione. He would hurt a lot and I feel it wouldn't be fair on JKR's part to put Ron through *that*. But that's her characters, she can do with them as she wants. And it's not like those things never happen in RL either." We can agree on that, absolutely. I've felt for Ron before, and he's a good guy who deserves happiness. Deserving happiness means to me Hermione is not for him. He's not into her intensity; they rub each other wrong too much; she wants a life of challenge and peak experience. If it wasn't for Harry and their adventures as a Trio I doubt there would be much between them. (no way to know that, obviously) Del: "As for the "ordinary guy" bit, it makes me cringe badly. First because I strongly believe that nobody is ordinary : everybody is the hero of their own life, which by definition makes them extraordinary. And also because there's no rule written anywhere that says that ordinary people should pair up together and leave extraordinary people to other extraordinary people, or that they should content themselves with living ordinary lives, whatever that might be. And anyway Ron has already shown that he does not want an "ordinary life" : he stayed with Harry when things got rough, and he applied for the place of Keeper on the Quidditch team." How can I say I disagree with you, when what you say is wise and right? I don't mean anything in the least derogatory of Ron here. He's like the men who went off to fight in World War II or something and then came home to lead regular lives. There's nothing wrong with an "ordinary" life. Ron wants to be the hero to his wife and his kids. He wants to come home and kiss them all and talk about his day and his world. Ron needed something for his own sense of self-worth, and he made a lot of progress on that score. He's had success as a student by being appointed a Prefect, and success, at the end, as an athlete. It must have felt great. I don't think it hurts his self esteem to be second fiddle to Harry now that he something for himself. It didn't bother Dr. Watson. It's when the "pecking order" seems arbitrary or unjust people resent it. If he sees Harry with the girl he fancies, though, it might be different, I admit. I hope he doesn't have that pain. Jim Ferer From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 15:47:35 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:47:35 -0000 Subject: Word Power , Sorting, Diary In-Reply-To: <20040712144714.3336.qmail@webmail9.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105800 I, Del, wrote : > > I mean, honestly ! He even tried to *force* Lily to go out with him > > ! Amey asnwered : > He wasn't forcing Lily to go with him. It was just a ploy. Even if > Lily had agreed to this, I don't think James would have ceased > teasing Snape (as we know he didn't.) *Snape was a special case as he > also never lost a chance to hex James*. So it was just a question, > the other part of it (I will never raise a wand on Snape) was > inconsequential in both person's minds. Del replies : Wouldn't that be even worse than forcing Lily ? Making a promise that he knew he wouldn't keep ? No matter that Snape knew that he wouldn't, if Lily had said yes, and James had not kept his promise, he would have been a liar and someone who doesn't keep his promises. But then I'm sure Lily knew all of that, knew he couldn't keep his wand off Snape. I wonder how James would have managed, if Lily had accepted his offer... Amey wrote : > Are you trying to apply laws of Physics and Logic to human emotions? > They don't apply here. Otherwise > 1. Snape is working for Order > 2. Sirius is working for the same Order > 3. They are working on same side, so they are friends. > would be true. Del replies : Nope, because you're missing a *crucial* point in your demonstration : the law that says that Order members must be friends. It would go something like this : 1. Snape is working for the Order. 2. Sirius is working for the Order. 3. Members of the Order are friends. Conclusion : Sirius and Snape are friends. You *can* fool me on logic, but it's not so easy :-) And I wasn't applying logic to the characters' emotions, only to our reading of their actions. Though people's actions and emotions *are* often dictated by some kind of logic. Amey wrote : > This is not Sorting Hat being wrong. It saw properties of both the > houses in Harry's head, and so it went for Harry's choice. Del replies : Agreed. Personally, I don't have any trouble with someone being a true Gryffindor *and* at the same time a true Slytherin. The qualities required for both Houses are not exclusive : one can be all together courageous and cunning and ambitious and loyal and hard-working and extremely intelligent, or any combination of those. Del From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 16:04:24 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:04:24 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105801 Jim Ferer wrote : > I don't mean anything in the least derogatory of Ron here. > He's like the men who went off to fight in World War II or something > and then came home to lead regular lives. Del replies : The way I see it, when Ron becomes a man, either the VWII is over or it is not. If it is, then Ron will be a great war hero, but then so will Harry. Whether someone was a general or a captain doesn't make much difference once they go back to civil life. If the war is not ended, then neither the general nor the captain will retire to civil life, and neither of them will have an ordinary life. So I say that what applies to Ron applies also to Harry. If Ron can't have Hermione because he will have an ordinary life, then neither can Harry. Jim Ferer wrote : > There's nothing wrong with an "ordinary" life. Ron wants to be the > hero to his wife and his kids. He wants to come home and kiss them > all and talk about his day and his world. Del replies : First of all, we don't know that. And I'm reminded of Harry's fantasy dreams about Cho : he wanted her to admire him. So again I say that what applies to Ron applies also to Harry. Harry is *forced* into his life of risk and adventure. He's not *looking* for it. He didn't choose it. Ron, on the other hand, chose to stick with Harry even when he realised that this was leading him into a rough life. So IMO if anyone showed that they wanted an extraordinary life, it's Ron, not Harry. After all, in the Mirror of Erised, it's Harry who saw his family. Ron saw his ambitions. Del From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 16:16:43 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:16:43 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat doesn't sort /WAS The sorting hat seems to think Harry... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105802 happybean98 wrote: > I think the sorting hat is simply "sorting" students by reading their > thoughts and placing them where they want to be placed. Del replies : Could be, but then there would be no need for the Hat at all. All that would be necessary would be to ask the first-years in which House they want to go, and put them there. Moreover, considering the reputation of Hufflepuff House (a load of duffers, if I'm not mistaken), I doubt many people would *want* to be Sorted there. And finally there's of course the problem of the Muggle-borns : how are they supposed to make their choice ? Just by talking with other students, like Harry did ? Sounds quite risky and downright irresponsible to me : what if a perfect Gryffindor ended up in a compartment full of enthusiastic Slytherins (not all of them are bad) ? Then he would choose Slytherin, even if his natural place was in Gryffindor. At least, if it's really what the students want that counts, I would expect the first-years to receive an additional leaflet in their Hogwarts letter, presenting them each of the four Houses, so they could make up their mind in peace. Del, who doesn't think Neville would have dared *asking* for Gryffindor. From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 12 16:21:13 2004 From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:21:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040712162113.64125.qmail@web25307.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105803 delwynmarch wrote: Jim Ferer wrote : > I don't mean anything in the least derogatory of Ron here. > He's like the men who went off to fight in World War II or something > and then came home to lead regular lives. Del replies : The way I see it, when Ron becomes a man, either the VWII is over or it is not. If it is, then Ron will be a great war hero, but then so will Harry. Whether someone was a general or a captain doesn't make much difference once they go back to civil life. If the war is not ended, then neither the general nor the captain will retire to civil life, and neither of them will have an ordinary life. So I say that what applies to Ron applies also to Harry. If Ron can't have Hermione because he will have an ordinary life, then neither can Harry. Jim Ferer wrote : > There's nothing wrong with an "ordinary" life. Ron wants to be the > hero to his wife and his kids. He wants to come home and kiss them > all and talk about his day and his world. Del replies : First of all, we don't know that. And I'm reminded of Harry's fantasy dreams about Cho : he wanted her to admire him. So again I say that what applies to Ron applies also to Harry. Harry is *forced* into his life of risk and adventure. He's not *looking* for it. He didn't choose it. Ron, on the other hand, chose to stick with Harry even when he realised that this was leading him into a rough life. So IMO if anyone showed that they wanted an extraordinary life, it's Ron, not Harry. After all, in the Mirror of Erised, it's Harry who saw his family. Ron saw his ambitions. Now Udderpd I would just like to put in two knutts worth. Let us not forget that Hermione also chooses to stay with Harry. If her target were just Ron she would not have to be so closely involved with Harry. TTFN Udder PenDragon ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 16:28:31 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:28:31 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: <20040712162113.64125.qmail@web25307.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105804 Udderpd wrote : > Let us not forget that Hermione also chooses to stay with Harry. If > her target were just Ron she would not have to be so closely involved > with Harry. Del is at sea : Hermione chooses to stay with Harry when, where ? And Hermione knows that it's Harry who needs her help those days, not Ron. She's a very loyal friend, and won't hesitate to put her duty before her pleasure (not that she dislikes being with Harry, don't read me wrong). Especially when her pleasure is tainted by the fact that her guy is unable to get a move on their relationship. Or maybe she doesn't want that relationship to evolve beyond what it is now. You see, tons of possibilities. All of that *assuming* that Hermione is attracted to Ron, of course, so no need to ask me to justify that :-) Del From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 12 16:38:09 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:38:09 -0000 Subject: Stag question for our British friends Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105805 "Buck" usually means a male deer other than the red deer, which are stags. Buck is quite often used in old hunting songs and is also an old term for a dandy, which suits James rather well (hair tossing, preening, showing off generally). Sylvia From Batchevra at aol.com Mon Jul 12 16:48:42 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:48:42 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: James the Berk? Message-ID: <1d2.25b20d23.2e241aea@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105806 In a message dated 7/12/04 3:25:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, delwynmarch at yahoo.com writes: >Alla wrote : > Unless we learn that Snape was under Imperium curse, he had NO > BUSINESS going into Shack, absolutely NONE. > > > He was desperate to learn Lupin's secret to have them all expelled? > > Well, he got more than he bargained for. No, he did not deserve to be > eaten by Werewolf, but if he went into Shack of his own free will, he > was WRONG in doing so. Del replies : I agree, I agree. But I can't help thinking that if Harry kept to his own business, the books would be very dull and boring indeed... Del< Uh uh, Snape isn't like Harry, in all the books, Harry doesn't try to get anyone expelled deliberately, we know that Snape was trying to get any of the Marauders expelled. He saw something he thought could be used against Lupin, even though an adult in the school was with him, and was taking him to be safe. Sirius just used Snape's curiousity against him. Sirius says so in POA. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Batchevra at aol.com Mon Jul 12 16:59:01 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:59:01 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: James the Berk? Message-ID: <149.2dca127d.2e241d55@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105807 In a message dated 7/12/04 7:17:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com writes: >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Batchevra at a... wrote: > > Lupin told us that Snape had seen Madame Pomphrey take him to the Whomping > Willow to transform, and was interested where he went. Granted Sirius never told > Snape what was going on, but told him how to get through the Willow. What > Snape should have known is that the teachers were somewhat already informed about > something that should have been kept quiet.Yes, Sirius sent Snape to the > Shrieking Shack, but Snape was partly at fault for going. > There is one aspect of this whole affair that (so far) no-one has managed to explain: Just what did Sirius tell Snape and why did Snape believe him?< That is the question, especially if the Pensieve scene we had seen happened first. I don't know what Sirius had said, but Snape already knew that the teachers had something going on and it involved Lupin. >Snape is a fairly innocent party in this episode - he's nosy but he doesn't do anything that could be classed as wrong, no matter that his motives were selfish. He's the injured party, the one with something to justifiably complain about. And he would - vociferously. Yet DD successfully gags him. It certainly adds a new dimension to the Snape/DD relationship. Why would Snape *ever* trust DD again? Kneasy< Snape is not innocent, he spied to find something that he could use against any of the Marauders, just like Draco in PS/SS was out of his dorm to spy on Harry and Hermione when they gave Norbert to Charlie Weasley's friends. If Sirius had been expelled, and Lupin thrown out of the school because of what happened, Snape would have been expelled also, he was out of bounds and out of bed. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 12 16:59:49 2004 From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:59:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: <20040712162113.64125.qmail@web25307.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040712165949.71403.qmail@web25302.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105808 Del Wrote.> Harry is *forced* into his life of risk and adventure. He's not *looking* for it. He didn't choose it. Ron, on the other hand, chose to stick with Harry even when he realised that this was leading him into a rough life. So IMO if anyone showed that they wanted an extraordinary life, it's Ron, not Harry. After all, in the Mirror of Erised, it's Harry who saw his family. Ron saw his ambitions. Now Udderpd I would just like to put in two knutts worth. Let us not forget that Hermione also chooses to stay with Harry. If her target were just Ron she would not have to be so closely involved with Harry. TTFN Udder PenDragon Del is at sea : Hermione chooses to stay with Harry when, where ? And Hermione knows that it's Harry who needs her help those days, not Ron. She's a very loyal friend, and won't hesitate to put her duty before her pleasure (not that she dislikes being with Harry, don't read me wrong). Especially when her pleasure is tainted by the fact that her guy is unable to get a move on their relationship. Or maybe she doesn't want that relationship to evolve beyond what it is now. You see, tons of possibilities. All of that *assuming* that Hermione is attracted to Ron, of course, so no need to ask me to justify that :-) Del Udderpd again You neatly snipped the post where you said that Ron chooses to stay with Harry and I have pasted it back into the chain. If it's Ron's choice then it is also Hermione's and when Harry tries to opt out they BOTH and Ginny drag him back in. Bye again Udder PenDragon ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From greatelderone at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 17:03:47 2004 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:03:47 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105809 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > The way I see it, when Ron becomes a man, either the VWII is over or > it is not. If it is, then Ron will be a great war hero, but then so > will Harry. Whether someone was a general or a captain doesn't make > much difference once they go back to civil life. If the war is not > ended, then neither the general nor the captain will retire to civil > life, and neither of them will have an ordinary life. > So I say that what applies to Ron applies also to Harry. If Ron can't > have Hermione because he will have an ordinary life, then neither can > Harry. GEO: Except do you really think that Harry will have an ordinary life after the war ends. Ron might have a more mundane life, but Harry is pretty much still going to be fighting the good fight after the war ends. I mean you'd still have the remnants of Voldies followers looking to avenge their master, the potential Dark Lord candidates who'd probably think their way to domination is probably to kill the guy who killed the last Dark Lord and the fact as Hermione pointed out Harry has that predilection to saving people. In a nutshell he aint going to have an ordinary wizard life. > First of all, we don't know that. > And I'm reminded of Harry's fantasy dreams about Cho : he wanted her > to admire him. GEO: Especially during a time when most of the wizard world was thinking that he was a liar and possibly insane with all those articles that were being written by the MoM's propaganda corps. > > Harry is *forced* into his life of risk and adventure. He's not > *looking* for it. He didn't choose it. GEO: He may have been forced onto that road in life, but metaphorically he's the one walking the walk. > Ron, on the other hand, chose to stick with Harry even when he > realised that this was leading him into a rough life. So IMO if anyone > showed that they wanted an extraordinary life, it's Ron, not Harry. GEO: I really don't know how you came to this conclusion. Seems to me that Ron sticks by Harry because of loyality > After all, in the Mirror of Erised, it's Harry who saw his family. Ron > saw his ambitions. > GEO: And seeing how Harry's family is dead and there isn't any magic that can make the dead living then I'm guessing Ron has as much of a chance becoming head boy and quidditch captain that Harry has of being reunited with his father and mother in the living world. From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Jul 12 17:03:38 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:03:38 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: <1d2.25b20d23.2e241aea@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105810 Batchevra: > > Uh uh, Snape isn't like Harry, in all the books, Harry doesn't try to get anyone expelled deliberately, we know that Snape was trying to get any of the Marauders expelled. He saw something he thought could be used against Lupin, even though an adult in the school was with him, and was taking him to be safe. Sirius just used Snape's curiousity against him. Sirius says so in POA.< The Marauders were breaking school rules and wizarding law and *deserved* to be expelled for what they were doing, as Sirius knew quite well. Snape following them to try to find out what they were up to is no different than Harry and his friends entering the third floor corridor to try to keep Snape (as they thought) from stealing the stone. Pippin From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Mon Jul 12 17:10:50 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:10:50 -0000 Subject: Severus Snape's character In-Reply-To: <1e9.24d386e8.2e238491@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105811 First thing first -- *Awesome* post, Julie!! I really don't have much to add to your post since most of my reaction is head-nodding "uh-huh", but just few comments to... >>> Julie wrote: > 2. Snape treats all students with equal doses of nastiness? > Not by a long shot. I've been re-reading POA, and Snape definitely > favors Slytherins. In the first Potions class scene, Snape makes > Ron and Harry prepare Draco's potion because Draco is nursing his > supposedly injured arm. It's a safe bet that if Harry came to class > with his arms actually cut off, Snape would tell him to quit whining > and fix his own potion, with his toes if necessary! > > Maybe this isn't too surprising, given that Snape is head of Slytherin House, and that he either does not choose or is even incapable of acting without prejudice. We don't see him with Hufflepuffs or Ravenclaws, but I suspect he's somewhere in the middle with them-- strict, but not as permissive as he is with Slytherins, nor as demeaning as he is to Gryffindors. <<< Bren now: Not to mention Slytherin students actually don't cause any meyham in Potions class (as far as we know), they seem to follow Snape with much respect. Draco clearly admires Snape, he wants him to be Hogwarts Headmaster, and I don't think *any* teacher can resist to show even slightest favorism towards his "pet" students. >>> 3. Why does Dumbledore let someone like Snape teach? > I think Dumbledore lets Snape teach because Snape is in fact *teaching* the students something. Not only is he competently teaching them Potions, but he is also teaching them about the real (i.e. Wizarding) world. Yes, Snape is mean, even occasionally mildly abusive, and Dumbledore does call him on it when necessary. But it's a life lesson. If students can't handle Snape's vitriol, especially certain students like Harry and Neville who will likely be crucial in saving the WW, how will they ever stand up to Voldemort? <<< Bren now: And perhaps to keep Snape around, feeding him with dose of noble Dumbledore to cast any temptation of returning back to Voldemort? And to have a powerfully-magical and quick-thinking Order member around in case of Voldemort's return and his infiltration of Hogwarts? >>> Julie continues: BTW, I don't think for a minute there is some good cop/bad cop thing going on here. Snape is simply Snape, and I don't believe he is *acting* at all. He despises Harry, both because of his father, and because of Harry's own actions and attitude. Snape goes on his merry > way, doing what he does because that's simply how he is, and > Dumbledore accepts it because it is far more beneficial than harmful. > And because he knows that the students, while perhaps bruised a > bit by Snape's words, are completely safe in Snape's presence (which > is no small thing, if you consider some of the other teachers). Bren: I do believe he is "acting" to a degree, though. The fact that he despises Harry probably makes it much easier for him to go along with it. I highly doubt that he will like Harry given different circumstances, but his actions seem to be *exaggerated* to entertain the Malfoy lot -- hence your "far more beneficial than harmful" comment. He probably justifies his verbal abuse that way, it's a win- win situation for Snape and IMO this kind of train of thought IS what makes Snape who he is. > 4. Snape's Boggart and Patronus? > I don't really have a clue! I do think Snape has both though. I am > wondering if his Boggart might be whatever drove him from Voldemort's > side. Something he was nearly forced to do, but realized he couldn't > go through with? Or, something he did, and then regretted enough > to leave? As for his Patronus, Snape has to have at least one happy > memory (I hope). It will be pretty fascinating to see what it is. (Though I can't quite wrap my mind around the image of a smiling Snape!) Bren: Perhaps his Boggart is Vampire and his Patronus is Dumbledore. Or maybe Harry or Prongs. Or --better yet-- PADFOOT! LOL! [having a fit from giggling too hard] Bren From Batchevra at aol.com Mon Jul 12 17:18:04 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:18:04 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: James the Berk? Message-ID: <1e2.2529f4bc.2e2421cc@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105812 In a message dated 7/12/04 1:11:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, foxmoth at qnet.com writes: >Batchevra: > > Uh uh, Snape isn't like Harry, in all the books, Harry doesn't try to get anyone expelled deliberately, we know that Snape was trying to get any of the Marauders expelled. He saw something he thought could be used against Lupin, even though an adult in the school was with him, and was taking him to be safe. Sirius just used Snape's curiousity against him. Sirius says so in POA.< The Marauders were breaking school rules and wizarding law and *deserved* to be expelled for what they were doing, as Sirius knew quite well. Snape following them to try to find out what they were up to is no different than Harry and his friends entering the third floor corridor to try to keep Snape (as they thought) from stealing the stone. Pippin> No, Snape was breaking the rules also, so he deserved to be as expelled as the Marauders did. Snape isn't an innocent bystander he chose to spy on them and he chose to be like Draco, who tried to get Harry and Ron expelled. I have always said, I like the characters of Remus, Sirius and Snape, and that seems to be partly what drives these books is that relationship, because it is playing out with Draco and Harry, Ron and Hermione. oh, By the way, Harry and his friends wouldn't have been at that third floor corridor had there not been a challenge by Draco and his friends. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From greatelderone at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 17:34:08 2004 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:34:08 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105813 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > What I meant was that Ron is always second-best to Harry : GEO: Don't forget that Harry still can't beat Ron at chess. > Harry's got the money, the fame (even if he doesn't want it), the > talent, the better looks, GEO: What better looks? According to the books, fellow has knobby knees and crappy hair and wears glasses. > and he was supposed to get the Prefect > badge. GEO: And you're conveniently ignoring the fact that in the end it was Ron that got the badge not Harry. Besides Ron is the one that has the loving family, probably the friendlier attitude and less of a dark history compared to Harry. > He would hurt a lot and I feel it wouldn't be > fair on JKR's part to put Ron through *that*. But that's her > characters, she can do with them as she wants. And it's not like those > things never happen in RL either. GEO: As something pointed out once, to understand and develop these characters you have to put the characters through challenges, difficulties and heartbreaks. > As for the "ordinary guy" bit, it makes me cringe badly. First because > I strongly believe that *nobody* is ordinary : everybody is the hero > of their own life, which by definition makes them extraordinary. GEO: The fact remains that in the story Harry is the hero. > And anyway Ron has > already shown that he does *not* want an "ordinary life" GEO: He's still a kid. So far most kids start off all wanting to be status symbols of society. No doubt that applies to wizard children. > : he stayed > with Harry when things got rough, GEO: It's a rare quality called loyality. > and he applied for the place of > Keeper on the Quidditch team. GEO: That might be because a good number of his brothers have been on the qudditch team, that he's actually a decent Keeper and that there hasn't been a position open on the team since their first year. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Jul 12 17:41:50 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:41:50 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: <149.2dca127d.2e241d55@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105814 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Batchevra at a... wrote: > > Snape is not innocent, he spied to find something that he could use against > any of the Marauders, just like Draco in PS/SS was out of his dorm to spy on > Harry and Hermione when they gave Norbert to Charlie Weasley's friends. If > Sirius had been expelled, and Lupin thrown out of the school because of what > happened, Snape would have been expelled also, he was out of bounds and out of bed. > Expelled? For being out out of bounds and out of bed? In that case why is Harry still at Hogwarts? He's been caught for that crime too. No, it's a detention offence, nothing more. Besides, when Lupin recounts the story it's "one evening..." There's no convincing evidence that Snape broke *any* rules, just eager to get some dirt on the boys. Of course Lupin hadn't broken any rules either, but that wouldn't have saved him, not when the parents of other students heard that there was a werewolf at Hogwarts. James might have stayed, based on his 'rescue' but Sirius? Knowingly sending an innocent student into a werewolf's lair? He'd be out on his ear with DD close behind, probably. But you're missing the point - how did DD manage to shut Snape up? Threats wouldn't do it. Snape's cards are stronger than his. So what happened? Kneasy From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Mon Jul 12 17:48:22 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:48:22 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius lure Severus into the Willow? (was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105815 > > Neri wrote: > > You forget one thing. James did run after Severus and saved his life. Snape belittles this in the Shack (in PoA), but we know that as late as SS/PS Snape had still considered himself in debt to James. So the shaken 16 yrs old Severus, who had just saw Death in the form of a full-blown werewolf and was dragged back by James, is likely to see > > it this way even more. Or perhaps it was DD who gently but surely > > pointed this to him, in the best of DD's style. > > > Kneasy responded: > But even if he did consider he owed something to James he owed > nothing to Sirius or Lupin, or DD come to that. He could tell his > tale and the solids would hit the fan, spattering everyone except > himself. > > Small correction: it's DD who suggests that Snape's 'life debt' might be a factor in the way he feels about James. He uses it as a reason, an excuse, for Snape saving Harry from Quirrell's broom-stick hex, so that he could go back to hating James in peace. > > Personally, I think this is some of DD's flim-flam; he's presenting Harry with a credible reason for Snape's actions, one that Harry will understand and accept; the more so since it makes James look good. I think it's more complicated than that. Remember - in PoA chap 14, Harry reminds Snape that James saved his life and Snape's reaction doesn't indicate any feeling of debt or forgiveness at all. He lumps all the Marauders together and suggests James only rescued him because he got cold feet, that James was primarily saving himself and his friends. Saving Snape was just a means to an end. > > Snape never mentions a 'life debt', might never even consider it > applicable, since it was one of James's friends that put him in danger of his life anyway. The way he behaves in Shrieking Shack II, the estatic Gotcha! reaction; the revenge he can almost taste - "Two more for Azkaban" - is almost obscene. He's been waiting for this for a long, long time. > > I see Sevvy as a vengeful type - he'd want his pound of flesh, to see his enemies humiliated. Somehow DD put the blocks on it. > I'd love to know how and I'd love to know why Snape still trusts him. <<< Brenda now: I can think of a situation where DD had to put some sense to Snape in that DD had a power to reveal something of Snape that he didn't want anyone else to know. DD perhaps told Snape of the "benefits" he would get from keeping his mouth (or fingers) shut about Lupin. Maybe some HPFG members are right in that Snape is in fact Vampire!Snape -- and DD knows it, and strikes a deal with Snape (trying NOT to use the word 'blackmail' but in a nut shell, it was): "SSSnivellus (sorry, my bad) I have to be fair to all students. If I am to kick Remus out of school then I must do the same to you." Or Snape could have been another orphan staying at Hogwarts throughout the summer (like Tom Riddle) and DD was about to take this away from him if Snape didn't listen to him. As for Snape trusting DD -- I must take everthing as what it appears to be, at face value. He *is* the greatest wizard of modern time as considered by many, he is the only one who VM has ever feared, and he gave Snape a second chance. In Occlumency chapter of OoP, it sounds as though Snape fears DD even more than he does VM: " 'Dumbledore is an extremely powerful wizard,' Snape muttered. 'While *he* may feel secure enough to use the name ... the rest of us ...' " (OoP, 470. UK -- emphasis in Italic changed to **) Not to mention the cold, unforgiving and terrifying look DD shows when he is mad... I'm sure SNape got a blast of it himself... I have always regarded Dumbledore as kind of "divine character" in Potterverse. A mortal character (with the human mischievious trait) who resembles God. He is, after all, (appears to be) omniscient and omnipotent, loving/caring/forgiving, eccentric, but expresses his wrath of madness towards those who have been given enough chances. JKR says DD's voice is hers in the books and as the *creator* of Potterverse -- similar parallel... Brenda From ExSlytherin at aol.com Mon Jul 12 18:04:07 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:04:07 -0000 Subject: Dudley as HBP??!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105816 > Jake wrote: > I think it highly unlikely that Dudley is the half blood prince. > Harry is suppose to be a half-blood. (James-pure; Lily-muggle born). So, unless Vernon is a wizard (highly unlikely), Dudley, at best, could only be a muggle-born. Mandy here: I think you are confused, or I misunderstood your post. The blood status of a wizard child is not dependant on just the father, but the mother too. We all know Vernon is a muggle; no doubt about it, but there is the possibility Petunia could be a witch. Her behavior in OotP is extremely odd. If Petunia does turn out to be a witch, that would make Dudley a half-blood. The son of a witch mother and muggle father, just like Seamus. From tzakis1225 at netzero.com Mon Jul 12 18:10:51 2004 From: tzakis1225 at netzero.com (demetra1225) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:10:51 -0000 Subject: Return from the Underworld in Ancient Mythology (Re: Sirius Black) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105817 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "theadimail" wrote: > Well, that track is already used in OOTP. In every epic, the hero > is taken midway to the underworld by a prophetess where he gets to > meet his lost parent and gets to know rest of his destiny. The entire > plot of OOTP was based on this element. Harry went to the underworld, > here, the department of mysteries which is underground and that veil > thing and finds the prophecy. The prophetess element was played by > Luna and Sybill combined. Notice the trick on their names. A sybil is > a prophetess and the particular sybil who took Aeneas to underground > was Deiphobe or in other words Luna as both are related to the moon. [snip] Demetra: I'm a little lost here. I understand the play on the name Sibyll but I don't get the Luna part. Are you saying that both names, Luna and Deiphobe, refer to the moon? I agree that Luna does, but the Greek breakdown of the name Deiphobe would be fear of deity (God). Is there something I'm missing as far as links between Luna/Deiphobe? From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Mon Jul 12 16:23:30 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:23:30 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius lure Severus into the Willow? (was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105818 Kneasy: > Snape never mentions a 'life debt', might never even consider it > applicable, since it was one of James's friends that put him in danger of his life anyway. The way he behaves in Shrieking Shack II, the estatic Gotcha! reaction; the revenge he can almost taste - "Two more for Azkaban" - is almost obscene. He's been waiting for this for a long, long time. I see Sevvy as a vengeful type - he'd want his pound of flesh, to see his enemies humiliated. Somehow DD put the blocks on it. I'd love to know how and I'd love to know why Snape still trusts him. Aggie: Hmmm (Captain Jack Sparrow is getting everywhere at the mo!) that's very interesting!! I really hadn't thought about this before. WHY would Snape stay quiet? I COMPLETELY agree, he is insane with glee about catchng Sirius and Lupin. It doesn't make sense! I could just repeat all the reasons you said but it would be a waste of list-elves! I tried to put myself in Snape's shoes; why would I keep shtum. 1) I'm being blackmailed - That would work up to a point but you cannot install loyalty by this method and I DO believe that Snape is loyal to DD. Might be one for Vampire!Snape fans though!! >;-) teehee 2) DD told me his 'great plan' and I realised, even at the tender age of 16, how important this was to the grand scheme of things. As I am noble and couragous and do things that go against my 'evil' character, I can rise above such petty revenge thoughts and take the moral high ground. Although when the opportunity presents itself (in the Shrieking shack) it goes to my head a bit and I get slightly carried away! 3) Deep down I'm a really good guy and did it out of the kindness of my heart! (Slight pause, then hahahahahahhahahahah rotflmao) From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Mon Jul 12 17:04:54 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 12 Jul 2004 17:04:54 -0000 Subject: Ron as prefect? Message-ID: <20040712170454.29260.qmail@webmail9.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105819 >> sad1199 >> have a question that has probably already been posted. If so, >> please direct me... Question is, what qualities does Ron possess to >> make him a prefect? Unless Dumbledore chose him to help protect >> Harry in the future, I would think that his ordinary grades and lack >> of leadership would eliminate him from the process. One would think >> Seamus or Dean would be better prefect material than Ron. Amey: Sorry to jump in a bit late, but couldn't get time earlier. Let's see what all qualities we have been shown directly and indirectly: 1. He is a very good strategist, producing the best game of chess Hogwarts has ever seen (Makes you wonder how many games of chess like this Hogwarts has really seen, doesn't it? OOps, OT) 2. Loyal to his friends, to the extent of sacrificing himself 3. Going into any danger with friend His grades even if not Hermionisc, must be at least avarage like Harry's. Also, all other boys in Gryffindor maybe except Neville are pretty ordinary (at least from what we see). We have also seen his 'keeping in quiddich, once he has saved one goal, he saves all that comes his way. That is Ron in a nutshell for me. He starts late, will not believe in himself (it takes Harry or Hermione to make him do that), but once he has started, he has the materail to succeed. Dumbledore couldn't make Harry prefect for the reason he gave us. But he made his best friend prefect making sure that there is some authority figure with Harry ( I mean to keep an eye on him). Hermione is not going to be there with him always. Also, he might be able to control the rule-breaking streak in Harry sometimes. (He will be about as successful in that as Remus was with James and Sirius... which is more than enough for Dumbledore). He is also one person who hasn't his nose in at rulebook (Hermione has changed there also, I agree). Also, making Ron prefect balances making Draco prefect in that, Ron will surely counter the injustice Draco is sure to commit more than Hermione. Also, making him a prefect, and keeping him on the same level as Draco will also help him counter Draco's taunts. (Though I am not saying this is one of the reasons, but it will also help). In OOtP, it doesn't help because Umbridge is there to tilt the balance in Draco's favour, but in HBP things will be different and better for Ron. >> Del replies : >> I think that's 2 of his brothers who were Head Boys : Bill and Percy. >> And as many of us on this site have noticed, Ron belongs to the same >> sub-group of Weasley brothers, at least physically if not mentally. >> Maybe DD saw that too, and figured that Ron could become Head Boy, >> just like his brothers. Amey: HBP anyone? Well, at least he has the necessary family traits. And now that he is out of shadow of his brothers, he will be better off and will be a very good prefect. As for HeadBoy, I won't say anything till we know finally, as Harry is also heading that way. I am sure Ron has grown up and there won't be any bad blood between them even if Hary becomes Head Boy. (Head Boy Potter, oops.. I did it again..) >> Jim: "Hermione wasn't issued to Ron, agreed, but neither was she >> issued to Harry. What I meant was that Ron is always second-best to >> Harry : Harry's got the money, the fame (even if he doesn't want it), >> the talent, the better looks, and he was supposed to get the Prefect >> badge. But Ron doesn't care most of the time, because he's such a >> loyal friend. Amey: I am sorry to take this quote a bit out of context. But I feel this also might be one more reason. Taking Ron out of Harry's shadow. As a prefect, he will be able to control Harry somewhat, when he has got some sense of Responsibilty. Also, he will be out of the feeling of being second-best, which will help him look at their friendship at more equal terms. Dumbledore might be sure Harry is always going to be first in the group, but he wants to say that Ron is not a distant second, not just a sidekick, but he is also something in his own right. This is going to help Ron a lot. After all, Dumbledore is headmaster, not just a wizard fighting LV (with Harry as his main weapon). He is taking care of over all development of all his pupils. (Remember Neville's parents, he tells Harry not to tell anybody else till Neville is ready). All in all, what I feel is that, Ron is made prefect not for being exceptional, but for what he is, and more for what it will make him. I am sure we are going to see a more mature and confident Ron (just like Neville) in HBP. (Wonder if he dares to propose Hermione in any way...) Amey, who is rolling on ground laughing, imagining Ron proposing Hermione first time they meet in HBP [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Mon Jul 12 17:26:24 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:26:24 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius lure Severus into the Willow? (was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105820 Kneasy: > I see Sevvy as a vengeful type - he'd want his pound of flesh, to see > his enemies humiliated. Somehow DD put the blocks on it. > I'd love to know how and I'd love to know why Snape still trusts him. > Aggie: You've really got me on this one! It's a fab thought provoking quandry! Which, I'm sure, was your intention! I keep arguing with myself on my latest theory!! Somebody please help me!!! One possibility is that Snape kept quiet because there was nothing to tell! Dumbledore and staff knew about Lupin's condition and therefore there was no-one to tell! My counter argument is (and i'm sure loads of you out there are shouting it at your screens!) that many parents would not appreciate a werewolf amongst the students. Therefore he could have told the MoM. Do we know who was in charge at this time? Would it be Fudge or would it still be Crouch Snr? How much weight did Lucius Malfoy have at this time? He would have LOVED to have known about this as it would have gone towards discrediting DD. Perhaps this was why he kept quiet, he didn't want to get DD in trouble, but then why the fierce loyalty?!? Do we think DD is some family relation? Perhaps DD saved Snape from the man who abused him. OH I DON'T KNOW!!!!!! ;-) From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Mon Jul 12 17:32:12 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:32:12 -0400 Subject: The Sorting Hat doesn't sort Message-ID: <001001c46836$2bb966f0$0762d1d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 105821 happybean98 said: "I think the sorting hat is simply "sorting" students by reading their thoughts and placing them where they want to be placed. Just a "legilimancy" charm placed on the hat." Cathy: However, in OotP it says "'Well, the Sorting Hat did seriously consider putting me in Ravenclaw during my Sorting,' said Hermione brightly, 'but it decided on Gryffindor in the end." The Sorting had considered and then decided. Also, in GoF the Sorting Hat says: "The founders put some brains in me So I could choose instead!" Not make a decision based on what the kid thought would be best...Choose. The problem that I see with the 'legilimency' charm is that, a day could come, or may have already come, when all but the Slytherin kids would want to go into Gryffindor (or Hufflepuff, or Ravenclaw). The Hat needs to be able to sort based on abilites not just student whims, especially in the case of a student, like Dean Thomas or the Creevey kids, who would have no idea which would be a good house to want to be sorted into. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ryokas at hotmail.com Mon Jul 12 17:36:47 2004 From: ryokas at hotmail.com (kizor0) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:36:47 -0000 Subject: Neville in Gryffindor (Was: Who is berk and Slytherin reputation) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105822 > Amey wrote : > > Sorting hat to Neville: > > "Let's see. What have we here? You are not exceptionally bright > > (Ravenclaw out). Wouldn't do anything to gain what you want, zero > > cunning (Slytherin out). Courage I see some, hidden somewhere deep > > down. Plenty of Loyalty too... I think its Hufflepuff for you... not > > Hufflepuff you say, ok then it better be Gryffindor" ;D > > Del replies : > I don't have my PS book with me, but I vaguely seem to remember that > Neville said he would be happy with anything but Slytherin. Did I > imagine that ? And anyway, why would Neville not want to go to > Hufflepuff ? As you said, he doesn't have exceptional brains, he's not > the typical picture of courage, and I doubt he would *want* to go to > Slytherin ! (Unless there's something about one or both of his parents > that we don't know...) So he was *obvious* Hufflepuff material, he > would have no reason not to want to go there. I can't see any such line in my copy of PS, though my look wasn't conclusive. Fantastic Posts tells me that the accuracy of Neville's sorting has been called into question from time to time. Since at least my second reading of the books, Neville has struck me as good, if considerably non-obvious, Gryffindor material. I admit that he fits the (rather unfair - see Cedric, for instance) bumbling Hufflepuff stereotype, but he displays considerable bravery as well. Yes, he's frightened of Snape and intimidated Draco and his cronies. And? To freely quote a famous dead guy: "A man who never fears is a fool. A man who fears and conquers that fear is truly brave." Neville's not cowardly - as McGonagall states in OoP, Neville's largest problem is his lack of self-confidence. He certainly doesn't seem to hold a high opinion of himself. IMAO, he doesn't push back when he's pushed precisely because of this - Snape's a teacher, Malfoy is always accompanied by big, tough muscle and Neville considers himself so inept that he invested in protective measures when there was a monster around that seemed to be going after Squibs. Rushing into a confrontation when you think you don't have a chance isn't brave or courageous, it's just stupid. Neville does act courageously. In PS, he stands up to his friends because it's the right thing to do, and Dumbledore even has him win the House Championship for Gryffindor. He does stand up to Malfoy earlier in the same book, proving that he doesn't just submit to being a punching bag. In OoP, he gains the confidence he dearly needs in the DA, and adamantly accompanies Harry on his rescue mission despite having to ride on Thestrals and with a good chance of ending up face-to-face with the Death Eaters or Lord Voldemort himself. While he doesn't lose his clumsy side, he even proves to be an asset in the ensuing battle. And now for something completely different - in the OoP FAQ, it's speculated that Dumbledore gave Harry the Marauders' Map back. I think that Rowling has mentioned on her official site that Harry just took it back from Moody's office off-panel. - Kizor From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Jul 12 18:19:52 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:19:52 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius lure Severus into the Willow? (was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105823 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brenda M." wrote: > > I can think of a situation where DD had to put some sense to Snape in > that DD had a power to reveal something of Snape that he didn't want > anyone else to know. DD perhaps told Snape of the "benefits" he would > get from keeping his mouth (or fingers) shut about Lupin. Maybe some > HPFG members are right in that Snape is in fact Vampire!Snape -- and > DD knows it, and strikes a deal with Snape (trying NOT to use the > word 'blackmail' but in a nut shell, it was): "SSSnivellus (sorry, my > bad) I have to be fair to all students. If I am to kick Remus out of > school then I must do the same to you." > > Or Snape could have been another orphan staying at Hogwarts > throughout the summer (like Tom Riddle) and DD was about to take this > away from him if Snape didn't listen to him. > Kneasy: Oh, come now! No wishful thinking, please! At least I am wondering how DD orchestrated a cover-up (shown as such in canon - DD forbade Snape ever to mention it) of an event also shown in canon as a major part of the back-story. Inventing non-canon situations so that the story turns out the way you want it to just won't do, I'm afraid. Brenda: > As for Snape trusting DD -- I must take everthing as what it appears > to be, at face value. He *is* the greatest wizard of modern time as > considered by many, he is the only one who VM has ever feared, and he > gave Snape a second chance. In Occlumency chapter of OoP, it sounds > as though Snape fears DD even more than he does VM: > Kneasy: What second chance? DD *needs* Snape, he's the one, perhaps the only one that can do what DD needs done for the Order. And I didn't say that Snape doesn't trust DD - I asked how could he after the cover-up at Shrieking Shack I. "What happened to make Snape trust DD after that?" - that's my question. > Brenda: > I have always regarded Dumbledore as kind of "divine character" in > Potterverse. A mortal character (with the human mischievious trait) > who resembles God. He is, after all, (appears to be) omniscient and > omnipotent, loving/caring/forgiving, eccentric, but expresses his > wrath of madness towards those who have been given enough chances. > Kneasy: Not I. He's shown too much fallibility to be omniscient and omnipotent. Quirrell, Tom's Diary, the Basilisk, Crouch!Moody, the failure of the Occlumency lessons, the inability to control or neutralise Umbridge; the list is long and totally unbelievable for someone omniscient and omnipotent. Unless of course, you think it was all deliberate. Which would mean that he was quite happy for a half-trained student to face the second-most-powerful wizard in the world on totally unequal terms. Not once, but three times. Kneasy From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Mon Jul 12 18:20:18 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:20:18 -0000 Subject: ...HRH friendship - SS/PS the obstacle course was meant for HRH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105824 Aggie: > I think that the first 2 books were 'fluffed out' because of the > child market they were being aimed at. That means I think the > tasks etc were too easy for a RL view on the WW. Does that make > sense? It was dumbed down. > > In essence I agree with both Halli AND SSSusan because they both > have a valid point. The thought of DD risking the PS just to let > HRH test themselves is almost laughable if we think of it as an > adult making the tasks easy enough for 3 eleven yr olds to pass > through without too much difficulty. The PS is an EXTREMELY > important artifact and I had problems with the fact that it was so > easy to get to. I know the end task of the mirror is all > important, I'm just trying to get across my point! OTOH though, > the tasks seemed to be geared towards HRH. It uses all their > specific skills. It's too coincedental that they each use their > talents and become triumphant! Pure and simply it's fluff!! But, > I think that's just because JKR had to write it that way. IMO. SSSusan: Hi, Aggie. Thanks for weighing in on this. I understand what you're saying about its being something JKR "fluffed out" or "dumbed down" and I would be curious if other HPfGUers feel the same or differently. And I agree that it **would** have been laughable for DD to have risked the stone just to find out what Harry's made of, if it had been truly a serious risk. I guess I place a lot of faith in DD's statement about how he set up the Mirror--that, really, he knows what Voldy and his followers are like, and that if any of them got to that barrier, they would NOT have been able to obtain the stone. They would have wanted to USE it to bring Voldy back to power and to give him immortal life. But precisely because of that desire, they'd never get it. Disgruntled!Jen :-) wrote this: > I have just one teeny, tiny problem with it though: If Dumbledore > did believe Harry would try to go down the trapdoor, and DD helped > him prepare for it, I see a glaring inconsistency in the > characterization of Dumbledore. > Dumbledore can prepare Harry for a possibly life-threatening > situation, but he can't look at him in OOTP? He can send him off to > fight trolls and murderous chess pieces, but keeps Harry in the dark > throughout much of OOTP, for his *safety*? > Which is it Dumbledore, are you a hands-off "people learn by > experience" kind of guy, or a dispassionate micromanager? > I don't know. It's one of those areas where you can really tell the > difference in JKR's writing-style from PS to OOTP. I suppose it's > just a plot thing, Harry is maturing so the POV is maturing, but > that doesn't satisfy me. > The only way I can resolve this for myself is to believe Dumbledore > expected to be nearby to help Harry, if he got in over his head. But > it still bothers me :). SSSusan: I love how these two posts can be juxtaposed in this discussion. You're both commenting about JKR's style in the first book, and I hadn't thought about it, but it makes sense. And, before I read your last sentence, Jen, that's EXACTLY what I was going to say back to you. I *do* believe DD believed the stone could never have been gotten by Voldy or one of his followers because of the Mirror **and** that on the off-chance that Harry would end up there at the exact time that one of the Baddies was there, he would have been nearby to help. Clearly, his big boo-boo was in not understanding how very close by Voldy was at the time. Yet...he did get there, didn't he? :-) Siriusly Snapey Susan From greatelderone at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 18:20:46 2004 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:20:46 -0000 Subject: Return from the Underworld in Ancient Mythology (Re: Sirius Black) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105825 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "demetra1225" wrote: > Demetra: > I'm a little lost here. I understand the play on the name Sibyll but > I don't get the Luna part. Are you saying that both names, Luna and > Deiphobe, refer to the moon? I agree that Luna does, but the Greek > breakdown of the name Deiphobe would be fear of deity (God). > Is there something I'm missing as far as links between Luna/Deiphobe? Phobe is another one of the many numerous goddesses of the moon that are littered throughout mythology. From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 18:45:29 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:45:29 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius lure Severus into the Willow? (was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105826 > > Neri: > > You forget one thing. James did run after Severus and saved his life. > > Snape belittles this in the Shack (in PoA), but we know that as late > > as SS/PS Snape had still considered himself in debt to James. So the > > shaken 16 yrs old Severus, who had just saw Death in the form of a > > full-blown werewolf and was dragged back by James, is likely to see > > it this way even more. Or perhaps it was DD who gently but surely > > pointed this to him, in the best of DD's style. > > > Kneasy: > But even if he did consider he owed something to James he owed > nothing to Sirius or Lupin, or DD come to that. He could tell his > tale and the solids would hit the fan, spattering everyone except > himself. Neri: The point is that it would spatter James. All the rest are not important. Young Severus now owes James. He feels that until he pays James back, he can't get him expelled, certainly not for the very act of saving Severus' life. >Kneasy: > Small correction: it's DD who suggests that Snape's 'life debt' might > be a factor in the way he feels about James. He uses it as a reason, > an excuse, for Snape saving Harry from Quirrell's broom-stick hex, > so that he could go back to hating James in peace. > > Personally, I think this is some of DD's flim-flam; he's presenting > Harry with a credible reason for Snape's actions, one that Harry will > understand and accept; the more so since it makes James look good. > I think it's more complicated than that. Neri: If DD is lying to Harry about it, then why indeed didn't young Severus let the solids hit the fan? And if he didn't because DD was intimidating him, then why does he trust DD now? I find DD's explanation to be simpler and more consistent. > Kneasy: > Remember - in PoA chap 14, Harry reminds Snape that James saved > his life and Snape's reaction doesn't indicate any feeling of debt or > forgiveness at all. He lumps all the Marauders together and suggests > James only rescued him because he got cold feet, that James was > primarily saving himself and his friends. Saving Snape was just a > means to an end. Neri: I think Snape in the Shack thought he is saving Harry's life from Sirius, and thus his account with James is settled, and he is finally free to trash James to his heart content. His words, regardless of the amount of truth in them, sounds like something he was waiting to say for years and years. > Kneasy: > Snape never mentions a 'life debt', might never even consider it > applicable, since it was one of James's friends that put him in danger > of his life anyway. The way he behaves in Shrieking Shack II, the estatic > Gotcha! reaction; the revenge he can almost taste - "Two more for > Azkaban" - is almost obscene. He's been waiting for this for a long, > long time. > Neri: Yes, but I think it was more than taking down both Sirius and Lupin in a single stone. It was getting rid of his debt to James, the debt that Snape hates perhaps even more than he hates Sirius and Lupin. That's another reason why he wouldn't even consider the possibility that Sirius is innocent. If Sirius is innocent, then he (Snape) is not saving Harry's life. >Kneasy: > I see Sevvy as a vengeful type - he'd want his pound of flesh, to see > his enemies humiliated. Neri: I fully agree with that, but I think Snape also has his twisted sense of honor. I know people who are a bit like Snape. They simply can't stand owing even a small favor to anybody. They must "get even". For Snape, owing his life to somebody is bad enough. Owing his life to somebody he hates is unbearable. But owing his life to somebody he hates and is already dead, So Snape can't pay him back, this is worse than unbearable. Poor Sevvy... >Kneasy: >Somehow DD put the blocks on it. > I'd love to know how and I'd love to know why Snape still trusts him. Neri: Well, if you choose to reject DD's explanation of Snape for a more complicated one, that's fine by me, but you'll have patch your argument yourself. Neri From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Mon Jul 12 18:52:35 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:52:35 -0000 Subject: Ron as prefect? In-Reply-To: <20040712170454.29260.qmail@webmail9.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105827 wrote: Question is, what qualities does Ron possess to make him a prefect? Amey: (major snippage) 1. He is a very good strategist, producing the best game of chess Hogwarts has ever seen (Makes you wonder how many games of chess like this Hogwarts has really seen, doesn't it? OOps, OT) --------- I'm sorry, I have to disagree that this is a knonw fact. Strategist does not always follow from merely being adept at chess. In fact, I'd like anyone to tell me where, besides a chess board, Ron has every once displayed any skill at stratedy. Heck, even a strategic thought would be more than I can recall right now. Basically, we can assume that Ron is only truly handy if there happens to be a chessboard involved. ------------ Amey: As a prefect, he will be able to control Harry somewhat, when he has got some sense of Responsibilty. -------------- I don't believe this was motive for Dumbledore. Ron's never really ever stood up to Harry and disagreed with something Harry wanted to do--unless it was following spiders in CoS where Ron would have rather played with Blast Ended Skrewts that follow spiders into the Forest. Besides, Hermione's tehre to keep Harry thinking clearly, that's never ever been Ron's job so I don't see why Dumbledore would suddenly think it was. If anything, I think Ron was chosen because first, Harry was passed over and second, because Dumbledore could not be sure that any of the remaining three boys in Gryffindor would not turn on Harry and make his year even more difficult. Just imagine what it would have been like if Seamus, when he'd been on the outs with Harry, had had the power of being prefect--it could have made things quite bad. So I say Ron was chosen for his loyalty to Harry. Arya From lbiles at flash.net Mon Jul 12 18:51:20 2004 From: lbiles at flash.net (leb2323) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:51:20 -0000 Subject: The 'Power' of Hermione's wand-movie foreshadow? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105828 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aggiepaddy" wrote: Aggie: > So it is possible that just one person's 'expelliarmus' could knock > someone flying. It's curious though, that when the children used it they just disarmed their opponent. Maybe the power of this spell > does grow with age, or maybe because Snape was so angry (as was Harry in the Shrieking Shack) it enhanced the spell. > > I realise that this thread had died a death but thought I'd renew it as I'd come across this quote. > I didn't follow the earlier thread so I hope I'm not just repeating what someone else said. I think the anger you mentioned is the key here just like the unforgivable curses. Snape obviously wanted to tear Lockhart to pieces so when he did the charm it literally blew him away. Same with the trio (in the book) and just Harry (in the movie). The hatred of Snape really feuled it and put some serious oomph behind it! Harry was mad at Bellatrix when he did his feeble "crucio" but in this situation he had the fury of being interrupted by the person he hates most in the world (I'm assuming Dudley runs a close second but Snape is first) when he was confronting who he thought was his parents' murderer. That some serious rage to put into a spell! So, I don't think it was Hermione's wand that added the power I think it was pure unbridled emotion. leb From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Mon Jul 12 19:04:08 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:04:08 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius lure Severus into the Willow? (was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105829 >>> I wrote before: > > DD perhaps told Snape of the "benefits" he would > > get from keeping his mouth (or fingers) shut about Lupin. Maybe some HPFG members are right in that Snape is in fact Vampire!Snape -- and DD knows it, and strikes a deal with Snape (trying NOT to use the > > word 'blackmail' but in a nut shell, it was) > > Or Snape could have been another orphan staying at Hogwarts > > throughout the summer (like Tom Riddle) and DD was about to take this away from him if Snape didn't listen to him. > > > Kneasy wrote: > Oh, come now! No wishful thinking, please! > At least I am wondering how DD orchestrated a cover-up (shown as such in canon - DD forbade Snape ever to mention it) of an event also shown in canon as a major part of the back-story. > Inventing non-canon situations so that the story turns out the way you want it to just won't do, I'm afraid. <<< Bren now: WHAT wishful thinking?? I don't *hope* Snape is a vampire, I don't really believe in it, and even if he was I couldn't care less. I was just trying to illustrate my point that DD BLACKMAILED Snape somehow to keep him quiet. THAT was my point. Blackmailing. And I was merely thinking of a few possiblities as to HOW DD accomplished this. Yes, I did "invent non-canon situations" but then how much CANON do we have on this now to rely on it? We don't have much, that's why we started speculating on this to begin with. And it doesn't hurt to suggest some theories, that is why this board exists anyways. And no, this isn't what I want either, like I said, I couldn't care less. If you could come up with a much better and logical situation supported by canon then I'd love to hear it (and apologize for snapping at you), really. > Kneasy: > What second chance? DD *needs* Snape, he's the one, perhaps > the only one that can do what DD needs done for the Order. > And I didn't say that Snape doesn't trust DD - I asked how > could he after the cover-up at Shrieking Shack I. "What happened > to make Snape trust DD after that?" - that's my question. Bren now: It is true that DD relys on Snape much, but OoP says that Dumbledore had a "number of useful spies". Surely this means Snape wasn't the only one. I would like to believe that DD has other many powerful wizards on his side who are much older, wiser and powerful than Snape -- after all, his "partner" is Nicholas Flamel, the 665+ year- old Alchemist. And didn't DD's Pensieve show us that Snape "rejoined" their side before VM's downfall? And that he gives second chance to others (can't remember who said it, either Fudge or Moody...) >>> Brenda earlier: I have always regarded Dumbledore as kind of "divine character" in Potterverse. A mortal character (with the human mischievious trait) who resembles God. He is, after all, (appears to be) omniscient and omnipotent, loving/caring/forgiving, eccentric, but expresses his wrath of madness towards those who have been given enough chances. <<< >>> Kneasy responded: > Not I. He's shown too much fallibility to be omniscient and omnipotent. Quirrell, Tom's Diary, the Basilisk, Crouch!Moody, the failure of the Occlumency lessons, the inability to control or neutralise Umbridge; the list is long and totally unbelievable for someone omniscient and omnipotent. Unless of course, you think it was all deliberate. Which would mean that he was quite happy for a half- trained student to face the second-most-powerful wizard in the world on totally unequal terms. <<< Brenda: Perhaps I should've been more clear. I didn't mean that DD was God in Potterverse, I meant to say he resembles God in many ways, much more than other characters in Potterverse (that we know of). The only fallibility I see in DD was trusting Crouch!Moody. This made me really afraid of Barty Jr actually and I wondered if he was more powerful than DD (but he did have a help of that magical eye.) DD strikes me as a character who wouldn't cross his (political) boundaries -- Fudge has more political powers than DD, and if Umbridge was sent on the Ministry' behalf to interfere with Hogwarts' business then DD couldn't do much, IMO. I do think most of his actions were deliberate, and I don't think he was HAPPY in sending Trio in dangers, he probably thought was *necessary*. The Trio learned loads of lessons from those incidents anyways. DD wanted to them to deal with dangers themselves for most part, but he came to rescue when it became too much for them. It's not fair of course, but then war situation is never fair. And if one was to assume that DD pretty much knows the outcome of this war (time-travelling theory kicks in), then it makes sense, IMHO. Brenda, anxiously waiting for Kneasy's rebuttal... From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 19:12:52 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:12:52 -0000 Subject: Snape's Destiny/JKR quotes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105830 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: snip. I think the anti-Muggle > portion of the WW must be fairly large. And I think Snape needs to > at least appear to be in that camp if he is to have any credibility > with the DEs. Particularly if he needs to be on Lucius' good side > to get information. > > I think he was worse in Gof than he ever had been, and that is when > he knew LV was around. In OoP he does things that looks good to > Draco and that may have been for Lucius' benefit. > > Potioncat who apologises for the rambling post in which she argued > with herself and does not know if she is a Snape apologist, a Snape > aholic or a Snapeophile. Alla: I knew I coudl depend on you to clarify things for me. :o) Now, I think I finally understand the reasoning behind "Snape has to maintain his cover". It is basically that Voldemort thinks that Snape as his faithful supporter, but not a spy for him will be openly anti-muggle and anti- Harry by extension. Thank you. From melclaros at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 19:12:52 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:12:52 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius lure Severus into the Willow? (was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105831 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > Small correction: it's DD who suggests that Snape's 'life debt' might > be a factor in the way he feels about James. Mel: Actually he doesn't even do that. He only explains that such actions create a bond between the people involved. Life-debt is never mentioned anywhere in canon that I can remember. The misreading of "bond" as "debt" is illlustrated by Snape's own reaction to Harry reminding him of the same rescue. Kneasy: > Snape never mentions a 'life debt', might never even consider it > applicable, since it was one of James's friends that put him in danger > of his life anyway. There you go. Even if there is such a concept, wouldn't it be null and void if the saving you was the very same (or once closely involved with) placing you in peril in the first place? Kneasy: > I see Sevvy as a vengeful type - he'd want his pound of flesh, to see > his enemies humiliated. Somehow DD put the blocks on it. Mel: Again! > I'd love to know how and I'd love to know why Snape still trusts him. Mel: This is one of the main points I want answered before the end of the series. Melpomene From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 19:20:22 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:20:22 -0000 Subject: Ron as prefect? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105832 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sad1199" wrote: > ... , what qualities does Ron possess to make him a prefect? Unless > Dumbledore chose him to help protect Harry in the future, I would > think that his ordinary grades and lack of leadership would eliminate > him from the process. One would think Seamus or Dean would be better > prefect material than Ron. > > sad1199 asian_lovr2: Start by asking yourself what Seamus and Dean have ever done. How have they distinguished themselves in any way? They haven't. When Ron went without hesitation, even against Harry's expectations, after the Stone, when he went into the Chamber of Secret knowing a Monster lived there, when he entered the forest to 'follow the spiders', when he step in front of Harry and declare that the infamous killer Sirius Black would have to kill him before he could kill Harry, when help was needed to defeat the Inquisitorial Squad and help Harry rescue Sirius, where were Seamus and Dean? Where? They were in their toasty warm beds sleeping soundly. Being a good leader isn't about tell other people what to do, it's about being decisive, taking initiative, setting priorities, and being able to function under pressure, and Ron has demonstrated those abilities far more than Dean or Seamus. I'm sure Dean and Seamus would do just fine as Prefect when all that was demanded of them was to stand in the hallway telling the student to keep the noise down. But when the monsters attack, the Death Eaters storm the castle, when they are staring into the eyes of Voldemort, who you prefer that the first year were in the charge of Ron, or Seamus and Dean. Would Seamus or Dean be more likely to cower and wait for someone to tell them what to do, our would they demonstrate, as Ron as done many times, that they can take initiative, that they can make a decision and choose a course of action, follow through, and fight bravely? Personally, if it was my life at stake, I would prefer that it was in Ron's hands. Just a thought. Steve/asian_lovr2 From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 19:22:32 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:22:32 -0000 Subject: ...HRH friendship - SS/PS the obstacle course was meant for HRH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105833 Jen: OK Susan, I'm getting more and more convinced that you're right about this issue ;). I wasn't convinved Sat., but you and Vivian put forth some very compelling evidence. I have just one teeny, tiny problem with it though: If Dumbledore did believe Harry would try to go down the trapdoor, and DD helped him prepare for it, I see a glaring inconsistency in the characterization of Dumbledore. Dumbledore can prepare Harry for a possibly life-threatening situation, but he can't look at him in OOTP? He can send him off to fight trolls and murderous chess pieces, but keeps Harry in the dark throughout much of OOTP, for his *safety*? Which is it Dumbledore, are you a hands-off "people learn by experience" kind of guy, or a dispassionate micromanager? I don't know. It's one of those areas where you can really tell the difference in JKR's writing-style from PS to OOTP. I suppose it's just a plot thing, Harry is maturing so the POV is maturing, but that doesn't satisfy me. The only way I can resolve this for myself is to believe Dumbledore expected to be nearby to help Harry, if he got in over his head. But it still bothers me :). vmonte responds: You are right Jen, there is something about OOTP that bothers me too. I'm not sure DD told Harry the entire truth about why he couldn't look into his eyes. I think (this is only MO not canon) that the real reason that Voldemort fears Dumbledore is because he always seems to be two steps ahead of the game. Don't get me wrong, I do think that Dumbledore is a very powerful wizard, but I think that he is not as powerful as Voldemort. He even mentions this to Harry during OOTP. p 835, OOTP, US version: "I knew that Voldemort's knowledge of magic is perhaps more extensive than any wizard alive. I knew that even my most complex and powerful protective spells and charms were unlikely to be invincible if he ever returned to full power." I also think that Dumbledore knows that Harry IS more powerful than Voldemort, but he needs to be trained. It was during OOTP that Voldemort became aware of his connection to Harry. Remember when Harry felt like a snake was rising inside of himself? When he wanted to attack DD? I think that this is the reason why DD needed to keep himself away from Harry. DD wanted Harry to master himself/his emotions during OOTP (the lessons with Snape which really did not work out anyway). It would have been very unlikely that Harry would have been able to follow DD's plans if the snake inside Harry had risen to attack. In fact Harry might have attacked Dumbledore and tried to kill him. Dumbledore doesn't want to hurt Harry, he needs him to survive. Maybe DD was protecting himself. How powerful would Voldemort be if acting through Harry's body? DD cannot die yet, he also needs to survive till book 7. vivian From melclaros at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 19:24:09 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:24:09 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius lure Severus into the Willow? (was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105834 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brenda M." wrote: him, in the best of DD's style. >> > I can think of a situation where DD had to put some sense to Snape in > that DD had a power to reveal something of Snape that he didn't want > anyone else to know. Maybe some > HPFG members are right in that Snape is in fact Vampire!Snape -- and > DD knows it, and strikes a deal with Snape If I am to kick Remus out of > school then I must do the same to you." Mel This doesn't even bear discussing. For fear of starting THAT discussion again, Vampires DON'T AGE. Snape was 16 at the time. Unless we're to believe he's still flitting around in a 16 year old (or younger) body, this theory don't wash. And don't anyone even start with the fractions. Brenda: >If I am to kick Remus out of > school then I must do the same to you." Mel Snape seems to have very little argument with Lupin. In fact Lupin would have suffered as much as Snape had the event not been stopped. While there is certainly 'no love lost' between the two, Snape's argument is with Sirius and James. It's Sirius he really wants revenge upon. Brenda > Or Snape could have been another orphan staying at Hogwarts > throughout the summer (like Tom Riddle) and DD was about to take this > away from him if Snape didn't listen to him. Mel Right. Dumbledore casting orphans into the snow. Don't see this one either. And again, as Kneasy pointed out, just think of the uproar once booted out suffering homeless orphan-done-wrong's story hit the Sunday Prophet's colour supplement. Brenda > when he is mad... I'm sure SNape got a blast of it himself... > > I have always regarded Dumbledore as kind of "divine character" in > Potterverse. A mortal character (with the human mischievious trait) > who resembles God. He is, after all, (appears to be) omniscient and > omnipotent, loving/caring/forgiving, eccentric, but expresses his > wrath of madness towards those who have been given enough chances. Mel Well many people feel the same way you do, I don't but that's neither here nor there. The point is, I don't think Snape much cares whether DD 'resembles God' or not. I hold to my idea that Snape is in this for his own reasons and where he is and what he's doing is the means to his end. Dumbledore is useful, yes, even helpful to him. That may very well be it as far as Snape feels. If DD treated me the way he treats Snape, I'd be hard-pressed to come up with a reason to stick around that long. Mel > > JKR says DD's voice is hers in the books and as the *creator* of > Potterverse -- similar parallel... > > Brenda From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Mon Jul 12 19:41:30 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:41:30 -0000 Subject: HRH friendship - SS/PS the obstacle course was meant for HRH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105835 >>> Vivian wrote: > > I think (this is only MO not canon) that the real reason that Voldemort fears Dumbledore is because he always seems to > be two steps ahead of the game. Don't get me wrong, I do think that > Dumbledore is a very powerful wizard, but I think that he is not as > powerful as Voldemort. He even mentions this to Harry during OOTP. > > (p 835, OOTP, US version): > "I knew that Voldemort's knowledge of magic is perhaps more extensive than any wizard alive. I knew that even my most complex and powerful protective spells and charms were unlikely to be invincible if he ever returned to full power." Bren now: How about p. 14, PS/SS, UK: "Voldemort had powers I will never have." I do think DD is as powerful as Voldemort because VM's weakness are DD's strengths. They complement each other that way, IMO. DD's powers are related to 'love' and 'saving other people' related to Lily's ancient magic, whereas VM's to Dark Arts. It is almost like fighting fire (VM) with water (DD) but more water is needed to put off fire. > I also think that Dumbledore knows that Harry IS more powerful than > Voldemort, but he needs to be trained. Yes, because Harry has been marked 'Equal' to VM *plus* he has noble heart, protection from his mother and DD. But VM achieved all this over 30 years of his life after Hogwarts, whereas HArry is still a teenager, been practicing magic (consciously) for 5 years. > It was during OOTP that Voldemort became aware of his connection to > Harry. Remember when Harry felt like a snake was rising inside of > himself? When he wanted to attack DD? I think that this is the > reason why DD needed to keep himself away from Harry. > > DD wanted Harry to master himself/his emotions during OOTP (the > lessons with Snape which really did not work out anyway). It would > have been very unlikely that Harry would have been able to follow > DD's plans if the snake inside Harry had risen to attack. In fact > Harry might have attacked Dumbledore and tried to kill him. > Dumbledore doesn't want to hurt Harry, he needs him to survive. > > Maybe DD was protecting himself. How powerful would Voldemort be if > acting through Harry's body? DD cannot die yet, he also needs to > survive till book 7. All of this I completely agree with, nothing to add... ;) Brenda From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 19:55:04 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:55:04 -0000 Subject: Why Sirius was Chosen as Godparent & Sirius' sacrifice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105836 Jen wrote: Now back to Godric's Hollow. What if Sirius being willing to die for Harry has more significance than previously thought? What if James & Lily chose him for this specific reason? In other words, there's more to this guardian selection, some additional protection conveyed onto Harry if Sirius does indeed die while attempting to protect him, similar to but not as powerful as Lily's sacrifice. Sort of a strengthening of Lily's sacrifice. This is probably something Dumbledore is unaware of until OOTP, or perhaps is still unaware of, something between Lily/James/Sirius, that may even involves a charm cast between them. For we know that Lily's sacrifice is *separate* from the charm Dumbledore placed on Harry before he was delivered to Petunia. And Sirius, loyal dog that he is, makes a choice. He can stay, cramped in Buckbeak's room, awaiting execution. OR, he can die fighting and give Harry much more protection than he will ever be able to give alive. Given that situation, there's really only one choice Sirius would make. vmonte responds: This is a cool theory! JKR did say that there was a reason why Sirius had to die. Your theory may be why. vivian From hallisallimalli at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 18:32:58 2004 From: hallisallimalli at yahoo.com (halli) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:32:58 -0000 Subject: Movie PoA Foreshadows Books 6 & 7 (other than Lupin-related) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105837 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mayeaux45" wrote: > Katie: > > I was actually thinking about the scene in the movie where non- > > Padfoot Sirius appears in the crystal ball, right before Trelawney > > wigs out and sounds like Linda Blair. But that's a fascinating > > point, and it adds doubly to the idea that Sirius will appear in > > Divination-type form again. Oh, and what was with the movie's Grim- > > shaped cloud, by the way? Halli: You just gave me a thought, that I have no idea if anyones mentioned before, so I thought I'd go for it. I think that now that Sirius is dead that the Grim will stop showing up in Harrys tea leaves/crystal ball etc. That is, of course, assuming he has any contact with that sort of thing, now that he doesn't have to take Divination. I can imagine Prof. Trelawney running up to Harry at some point and telling him the Grim is gone (well actually no I can't, she would want to keep the suspense or something...) or just us finding out it's not there anymore, because it was actually showing Sirius, not a Grim. Someone please tell me if I've made any sense here. From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Jul 12 20:04:01 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:04:01 -0000 Subject: Stag question for our British friends In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105838 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: Kneasy: > No problem. > In general usage 'stag' refers to a male red deer - the OED > says that it refers to one more than five years old, so it's > liable to have a full set of antlers. > "Buck' is usually applied to the males of other types of deer: > roe or fallow deer especially. (Or rabbits!) Geoff: It does not have to specifically a red deer. It is defined in one dictionary as "a fully adult male deer" and general British usage would include all. I live in an area where I see both red deer and roe deer almost every day and they are both referred to as stags. From happybean98 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 18:45:51 2004 From: happybean98 at yahoo.com (happybean98) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:45:51 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat doesn't sort /WAS The sorting hat seems to think Harry... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105839 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > happybean98 wrote: > > I think the sorting hat is simply "sorting" students by reading their > > thoughts and placing them where they want to be placed. > > Del replies : > Could be, but then there would be no need for the Hat at all. All that > would be necessary would be to ask the first-years in which House they > want to go, and put them there. happybean98: I still think there is a need for the hat. The reason is because it takes the pressure off of the first years saying what they really want. No one else can question "their" decision because it appears that it was the "hat's" decision. Just think of how some of the Gryffindor's might have laughed at Neville for wanting to be in Gryffindor. It's also possible that the students would always be second guessing themselves even after they chose. By reading their minds and saying what they want out loud, the Sorting Hat removes the risk of the first years expressing what they want. Another scenerio: Maybe one of the Patil twins didn't want to be in the same house as the other twin, but the risk of expressing that outright would lead to hurt feelings. If it appears that the Sorting Hat is doing it, nobody gets hurt. Same as if a student's parent wants them to be in the same house they were in. No chance of them being mis-placed because they want to please mom and dad. Del wrote: > Moreover, considering the reputation of Hufflepuff House (a load of > duffers, if I'm not mistaken), I doubt many people would *want* to be > Sorted there. happybean98: Well, we are reading the story primarily from Harry's point of view, so I wouldn't dismiss the house simply because Harry thinks it would be embarrassing to be there. Remember, Cedric Diggory was in Hufflepuff and got selected school champion in book 4. He also had the admiration of both Cho and Fleur at different times. Harry was even jealous of him. But let's suppose someone wanted to be "sorted" into Hufflepuff, but was worried about the stereotype that went along with the house. If the only thing keeping the student from choosing Hufflepuff was the stereotype, the Hat would use it's legilimancy powers to see through that and put them in Hufflepuff anyway. Del wrote: > And finally there's of course the problem of the Muggle-borns : how > are they supposed to make their choice ? Just by talking with other > students, like Harry did ? Sounds quite risky and downright > irresponsible to me : what if a perfect Gryffindor ended up in a > compartment full of enthusiastic Slytherins (not all of them are bad) > ? Then he would choose Slytherin, even if his natural place was in > Gryffindor. happybean98: But I think most eleven year olds have more ability to choose their friends than you think. Remember, Harry met Draco Malfoy in the robes shop well before he met Ron and Hermione, and even though Draco was keen to befriend Harry, Harry didn't reciprocate. Also, Harry was an exceptional case because the Dursley's should have told him about Hogwarts, and the WW, but they chose not to. Hermione was muggle born, but she figured out the house system by reading "Hogwarts a History". Del wrote: > At least, if it's really what the students want that counts, I would > expect the first-years to receive an additional leaflet in their > Hogwarts letter, presenting them each of the four Houses, so they > could make up their mind in peace. happybean98: I'd have to agree with you somewhat here, a leaflet would be nice, but I still say that if Harry knew nothing about the WW, let alone Hogwarts until a day or so before he was sorted, and he still managed to figure out where he wanted to be, why couldn't anyone else? -happybean98 From hallisallimalli at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 18:46:02 2004 From: hallisallimalli at yahoo.com (halli) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:46:02 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105840 > > Harry's got the money, the fame (even if he doesn't want it), the > > talent, the better looks, > > GEO: What better looks? According to the books, fellow has knobby > knees and crappy hair and wears glasses. Halli: Uhh, I would just like to point out that Harry looks exactly like his father (except the eyes) and his father was considered good looking...so unless green eyes make you ugly then Harry is good looking, basically. (But otherwise I don't want to get into this particular debate.) From tinainfay at msn.com Mon Jul 12 18:55:12 2004 From: tinainfay at msn.com (mrs_sonofgib) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:55:12 -0000 Subject: Lupin/Ron in the Shrieking Shack Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105841 Hi everyone! My first post here. As I was listening to PoA today I noticed something that struck me as odd and it brought up a question. In the Shrieking Shack, Lupin addresses the group and then Ron (p 362, Am HB) saying: "Then it's time we offered you some proof," said Lupin. "You boy - give me Peter, please. Now." Everytime I've listened to this book, I've wondered about the 'you boy;' that seems an odd way for Lupin to address Ron. On page 350, he twice calls him Ron (in a friendly sort of way) and surely they have a relationship since Ron has been in his class all year. I'm wondering if this is some sort of cryptic message. It just seems so odd. Since Peter is in the sentence I wondered if there was message about what might happen between Peter and Lupin (like everyone else, that silver hand worries me). Thoughts? Or is this Quibbler- worthy? ~tina From rebekia_krum at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 12 18:57:19 2004 From: rebekia_krum at yahoo.co.uk (rebekia_krum) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:57:19 -0000 Subject: Re PoA Question (foreshadowing books 6 & 7) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105842 Casey wrote: > > Interesting theories! The thing I found most bizarrely non- textual > in the POA movie was the huge proliferation of menhirs (the oblong > stones standing/balanced straight up - I think that's the term) in > Harry's woods-walk sceen with Lupin. I recently went to Scotland and up to the Orkney Islands. I was amazed at how many standing stones and early "settlements" like Skara Brae they have up there. I thought it was a lovely way to include the scenery or feeling of Scotlands History since Hogwarts is supposed to be located in the Highlands. I also think there's a much stronger concentration with Runes in JKR's OotP and I really feel it's important to the next two stories to understand some of the history of runes and standing stones.... Now ask me what the importance is and I'm still working on that. The rune alphabet contains 13 letters or symbols. Each letter has a specific meaning that makes it unique. Snape placing a "spikey D" on Harry's paper for instance could have a connection to Thurisaz. Rebekia From happybean98 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 19:27:14 2004 From: happybean98 at yahoo.com (happybean98) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:27:14 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat doesn't sort In-Reply-To: <001001c46836$2bb966f0$0762d1d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105843 > Cathy: > However, in OotP it says "'Well, the Sorting Hat did seriously consider putting me in Ravenclaw during my Sorting,' said Hermione brightly, 'but it decided on Gryffindor in the end." The Sorting had considered and then decided. happybean98: Yes, that's what Hermione says, because she,(and all the other students), believe that's what the Sorting Hat does. (Happybean suddenly realizes she is starting to sound like Luna Lovegood). But what Hermione doesn't realize is that SHE, not the hat, is the one "seriously considering Ravenclaw". Everyone projects their own thought processes onto the Sorting Hat because they don't realize it's reading their own mind. Cathy: > Also, in GoF the Sorting Hat says: "The founders put some brains in me So I could choose instead!" Not make a decision based on what the kid thought would be best...Choose. happybean98: Yes that's what the hat says because it's effectiveness depends on everyone believing in that pretense. If the hat openly admitted what was happening, the first years would be at risk of being pressured into houses they didn't really want to be in because they would have to consider not only what they wanted, but what everyone else would think about what they wanted. (Would Neville ever have openly admitted that he wanted a shot at being in Gryffindor? I think not.) I guess technically, the hat is still choosing the house, but it's coming to the decision not by sizing up each student's qualities and strengths, but by reading what they want. Kind of like what the Mirror of Esired does to anyone who looks into it. Cathy: > The problem that I see with the 'legilimency' charm is that, a day could come, or may have already come, when all but the Slytherin kids would want to go into Gryffindor (or Hufflepuff, or Ravenclaw). happybean98: Well, that's true, but maybe that wouldn't be so bad. The Hat's most recent song was about wanting the school to come together... Cathy: The Hat needs to be able to sort based on abilites not just student whims, especially in the case of a student, like Dean Thomas or the Creevey kids, who would have no idea which would be a good house to want to be sorted into. happybean98: I covered this in my other post, but the short answer is this. If Harry, who knew absolutely nothing about the WW, let alone Hogwarts until a few days before he was sorted, decided where he wanted to be, why couldn't anyone else? Thanks to the Dursleys, he was the most ignorant of anyone, even Muggle borns, and he still quickly chose Ron over Draco as a friend, even though he met Draco first. -happybean98 From kandbmom at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 19:37:49 2004 From: kandbmom at yahoo.com (Lisa) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:37:49 -0000 Subject: Who's the third dead death eater? / 'One who's left me forever...' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105844 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: ><...snip...>Besides, Snape > in OotP strikes me very much like Snape-who-is-still-in-debt-to- James- > and-hates-it, much more than Snape-who-closed-his-account-with- James- > and-now-can-treat-his-son-like-a-human-being. So I shelved this whole > speculation, but if you like it you are invited to it. > > Neri kandbmom: Neri, It is not that I think Snape has reconcilled his James hatred. I actually think that Snape is there because he felt the mark burn and went. There is no account for Snape during that period so we don't know if he is missing. I believe that he was there on his own and may or may not have chosen whom to side with. I think that Harry saw him but, did not know that it was him. Most of the DEs wore hoods and disguised themselves even within the group. I think that Snapes actions when Harry was revealing the DEs that he saw cause some concern. Chap.36 pg.706 "Look,I saw Voldermort come back!Harry shouted...." "...I saw the Death Eaters! I can give you names! Lucius Malfoy- <"Snape made a sudden movement, but as Harry looked at him, Snape's eyes flew back to Fudge." Why the sudden movement? Why is Snape nervious here? Afraid he might be named? As far as the missing DE I am not sure of that on it could be any number of people that we are not sure about. kandbmom From drliss at comcast.net Mon Jul 12 18:48:53 2004 From: drliss at comcast.net (drliss at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:48:53 +0000 Subject: How did Sirius lure Severus into the Willow? (was: James the Berk?) Message-ID: <071220041848.27151.40F2DD150002481D00006A0F22007621949C9C07049D0B@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 105845 I've been reading over this discussion with interest, and have a pure speculation thought that might go with it, or might not. I'm almost wondering how much Lupin plays into the MWPP vs. Snape thing. I have no basis for the following scenerio except an overactive imagination and a long wait for some parts I need. What if... Lupin and Snape had been friends at first? Ron and Harry are somewhat unusual in that they've come to a new school, met each other right off at the beginning, and remained best friends ever since. But what about another scenerio? On the surface, Lupin and Snape are cut from the same cloth. They're both studious. They're both serious and academically oriented. They both have somewhat troubled backgrounds (even if Lupin had full parental support, being a werwolf your whole life counts as troubled!), and they both haven't appeared to have many friends. Neither of them have been all that well liked. Say they meet on the train, and they hit it off. For the first few months, they're friends. Lupin, with his desperation to be liked, is just the kind of person that would be friendly with Snape from the beginning. Then Lupin gets close to his housemates James and Sirius. James and Sirius don't like Snape. Lupin's DEFINITELY not the type of person to stand up to James and Sirius about the matter, and he and Snape might not have been a perfect match as friends anyway. So they drift apart. That could account for Snape's anger at James and Sirius. (His anger at Lupin has never seemed as personal to me.) Rather than blaming Lupin for being weak, he blames James and Sirius for stealing his friend (and then tormenting him horribly). I can see where that would be a messy situation. I can also see then why Snape wouldn't tell anyone right off that Lupin is a werwolf. He'd be hurt and angry, but there might be that last shred of loyalty that kept him quiet. (It was interesting to me that Snape was very curious as to where Lupin went every month. I suspect that curiousity came long before the other mauraders were able to follow.) Like I said, TOTAL speculation, but it's an interesting thought. Lissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 19:46:36 2004 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:46:36 -0000 Subject: Snape and the meaning of courage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105846 Aggie: > The way I read your post, and please forgive me if I'm wrong, > but you seem to imply that while you do not think he is wimpy, you > think he is cowardly. Could you explain your reasoning behind that? > We are talking (well I am! ;0) ) about the young Snape. From the > pensieve scene I do not see how you can label Snape a coward. Katie: Oops! I didn't think to clarify that. For the record, I do NOT consider Snape to be a coward. Not in the Pensieve scene, certainly. In my post, I was just trying to distinguish between the concepts of wimpiness and cowardice, and speculating a bit on what Snape thinks as well. Aggie: > His philosophy does make him cold, but it also keeps him alive. I > don't think it's his worse trait, he wouldn't be 'Snape' if he wasn't > that way. It's just what makes him as interesting as he is. Katie: It does make him interesting. I just really don't like it :) Aggie: > I completely agree with you that the Snape we are 'allowed' to see is > just his persona. Deep down I believe that he is just the same as > the 15 yr old we see. Keeping himself to himself but prepared to do > battle with anyone who challenges him. Katie: I really wonder what Snape is like deep down. The glimpse of Snape's memories that we get (and his consequent reaction when he realizes that Harry sees them) seems to indicate that there is a lot more going on with Snape that we don't know about yet. HunterGreen (whose post I still would like to reply to!) said that it seems Snape is describing his younger self in the Occlumency quote. I'd bet that Snape's boggart would be his younger self. -Katie From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Jul 12 20:14:17 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:14:17 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: <1e2.2529f4bc.2e2421cc@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105847 Pippin: > The Marauders were breaking school rules and wizarding law > and *deserved* to be expelled for what they were doing, as > Sirius knew quite well. Snape following them to try to find out > what they were up to is no different than Harry and his friends > entering the third floor corridor to try to keep Snape (as they > thought) from stealing the stone. Batchevra: > No, Snape was breaking the rules also, so he deserved to be as expelled as the Marauders did. Snape isn't an innocent bystander he chose to spy on them and he chose to be like Draco, who tried to get Harry and Ron expelled. I have always said, I like the characters of Remus, Sirius and Snape, and that seems to be partly what drives these books is that relationship, because it is playing out with Draco and Harry, Ron and Hermione. oh, By the way, Harry and his friends wouldn't have been at that third floor corridor had there not been a challenge by Draco and his friends.< Harry entered the third floor corridor twice. The second time, he was planning to get hold of the stone before Snape could, and when he found that Snape had already entered, he went after him. You are quite right that this was a violation of the rules and he could have been punished for it. Dumbledore decided that Harry's intentions were noble and so they were, but we don't know what Snape's motives were at all. All we know is that Sirius thought Snape was trying to get them expelled. We don't know why. It's your guess that it was for Draco like motives, and that may well be. But it's just as possible that Snape, like Harry in PS/SS, believed but could not prove that something terrible was happening and tried to stop it the only way he could. Naturally the staff wouldn't listen to Snape if he told them he thought that Lupin's monthly disappearances were suspicious. He'd have been told to mind his own business, much as Harry was in PS/SS. But if Snape had made the connection between close calls in Hogsmeade and Lupin's absences and didn't have proof, he could feel he needed to do something about it, couldn't he?. Pippin From jlawlor at gmail.com Mon Jul 12 20:06:29 2004 From: jlawlor at gmail.com (James Lawlor) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:06:29 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96773c88040712130629e571fa@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105848 Wow, fantastic email there, Laurasia. > Dzeytoun wrote: > > >JKR sometimes commits the cardinal sin of writing, she lots plot > >dictate character instead of the other way around. A lot of the > >seeming inconsistencies and flaws really ARE inconstistencies and > >flaws. > I, James reply: I'd like to add, that to a point, I think this can be necessary when writing books "about good and evil" because at some point you have to say "Ok, these characters are ultimately good, these characters are ultimately evil, and this is how the conflict will eventually be resolved" and then you have to fit the characters and their actions into the mold of what has to happen for the story to work as intended. But I'm not really a writer, so perhaps I'm wrong. On a somewhat unrelated note, the only thing that's ever *really* bothered me in Harry Potter as a "plot device" was the Ford Anglia in the Forest in CoS, aka the Deus Ex Machina Car. Gawp is admittedly similar, but Gawp makes more logical sense (Gawp is in the forest, but could easily break his bonds, Gawp knows Hagrid and remembers "Hermy", etc). Laurasia: > Dumbledore _doesn't_ recognise Imposter!Moody until the end > of the year even though he's allegedly an old friend. Me (James): That's a valid point, but it makes enough sense to me. Dumbledore knew Moody when he was a young(er) Auror, before the job took it's toll on Moody, and probably hasn't had as much contact with him since he became a reclusive paranoid old man. I expect he noticed various oddities about Imposter!Moody, but wrote them off as Moody's changed personality, being (as always) extremely busy. And "old friend" doesn't necessarily mean he knew a great deal about Moody, after all I'm sure we all have a fair amount of variation in how well we know people we call our "friends". Laurasia: > Nobody remembers that Lupin shouldn't walk into the moonlight. Me (James): I know I sure wouldn't have remembered. Everyone but Lupin and Snape would probably have paid little attention to the phase of the moon anyway, and they were the only two who knew Lupin had forgotten his potion, and since Snape was unconscious and Lupin had obviously forgot, with all that had been going on it makes sense that no one would really connect the dots until they saw Lupin staring up at the moon. Laurasia: > Dumbledore _isn't_ at Hogwarts for an extended period of time > at the end of PS for so good reason (He can't apparate from the > village? Must literally _fly_ yo London?). Me (James): I would think that the Anti-Apparation Barrier extends to Hogsmead as well - indeed probably an area of 10 or 20 miles around Hogwarts. There would be little point to the barrier if you could Apparate a mile or two away and walk right in. That leaves only Portkeys (which require authorization - and Dumbledore only disregards Ministry laws when there is a great need or no other way). Laurasia: > Dumbledore _doesn't_ recognise a basilisk victim when he sees > one, even though he's allegedly the most powerful wizard of the > age. In fact, he can't even bring up a top 5 of monsters that can > petrify people, realise that only one of them is a serpent, and then > join the dots that Slytherin was a snake enthusiasts, AND a > parselmouth If I recall correctly, it was never explicitly stated (in, say, the book Hermione ripped a page out of) that Basilisks are known to Petrify their victims when they have indirect eye contact. Perhaps that explains a bit. > Couldn't agree more. Dumbledore is NOT a superhero. He is NOT > omniscient. He is NOT a perfect human being. The guy has faults, he > forgets things, he doesn't pay attention, he doesn't always > choose the right thing to do. I think the belief that he is always a > powerful wizard who can solve everything is also a flawed > assumption. If we take it that Dumbledore isn't as powerful as we > think, then it's perfectly in character for him to take a > thestral to London on urgent business instead of apparating, because > he was conserving his energy *grins* > I think a "perfect Dumbledore" would rather be going against most everything Dumbledore stands for. "It is not our abilities, but our choices that define who we are" implies that poor choices and imperfection are inevitable, and must be dealt with as we best know how - or else Voldemort could not have become Voldemort. Erm, yes, I think that made sense... maybe. - James Lawlor jlawlor at gmail.com From carmenharms at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 20:33:13 2004 From: carmenharms at yahoo.com (snazzzybird) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:33:13 -0000 Subject: Out On A Limb About Florence Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105849 Now that JKR has let the air out of the Mark Evans trial balloon, I'm going to go out on a limb with a fearless prediction: Florence will prove to be another Mark. Way back when the first round of Florence speculation gripped this list, I had my doubts... but kept them to myself. Who was I to throw cold water on a fun theory? And it wasn't as though I had anything remotely canonical on which to base my belief. JKR has, indeed, tossed a name into the narrative in one book, and made that character important in a later one. However, I just didn't think so with Florence. I didn't think so with Mark Evans, either. Like many of the posters on this list, I didn't see how he could be a relative of Harry's -- for reasons that these posters expressed better than I could. The only thing that kept me from being 100% sure he wasn't important was that *name*. Why, I wondered, would JKR give him Lily's last name for no reason? La Rowling answered that one herself: she made a mistake. I can accept that. Brilliant writer though she is, I have no problem believing she's human. She wanted to tell us something about Dudley, and she did it by having Harry refer to a younger, smaller child that Dudders beat up. Sometimes a writer will mention a character simply to illustrate something about another character. In GOF, JKR wants us to see that Bertha Jorkins was a snoop and a tattletale even when she was at school. She learned something about a fellow student and she went right to Dumbledore with the information. Later on, we'll remember this about Bertha when we learn that she was killed because she learned a secret that Lord Voldemort didn't want known. Florence could have been anybody. Florence was nobody. Whoever she was kissing, I hope she enjoyed it, because I think that was the closest she's going to get to her 15 minutes of fame in the Potterverse. --snazzzybird, whose little claw feet fit very nicely on this limb From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 20:35:26 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:35:26 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105850 > Pippin earlier: > > The Marauders were breaking school rules and wizarding law > > and *deserved* to be expelled for what they were doing, as > > Sirius knew quite well. Snape following them to try to find out > > what they were up to is no different than Harry and his friends > > entering the third floor corridor to try to keep Snape (as they > > thought) from stealing the stone. Alla: Noble intentions to try and get expelled four boys, who would not get a chance to get an education same quality as Hogwarts and as for Lupin , no education at all? Somehow I don't think so. But I could be wrong, of course. But even assuming noble intentions on the Snape's part, we don't know what punishment Marauders deserved for becoming an Animagi. Maybe it would be something significantly less severe than expelling them. Pippin. snip. Dumbledore decided that > Harry's intentions were noble and so they were, but we don't > know what Snape's motives were at all. > > All we know is that Sirius thought Snape was trying to get them > expelled. We don't know why. It's your guess that it was for Draco > like motives, and that may well be. But it's just as possible that > Snape, like Harry in PS/SS, believed but could not prove that > something terrible was happening and tried to stop it the only > way he could. > Alla: No, we don't know what Snape's motives are, but the problem with "Snape thought something terrible was happening... and tried to stop it the only way he could " is as Batchevra pointed out that he saw Lupin going in Shrieking Shack with Madam Pomfrey, so Snape could make a guess that Teaching Staff is already aware of whatever happens in the Shack and mind his own business. Harry and Co tried to inform Dumbledore first before going after Stone, he was not available. Snape shoud have at least tried to communicate with the teacher first. From BrwNeil at aol.com Mon Jul 12 20:39:47 2004 From: BrwNeil at aol.com (BrwNeil at aol.com) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:39:47 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron as prefect? Message-ID: <102.49bf715b.2e245113@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105851 In a message dated 7/12/2004 7:19:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, delwynmarch at yahoo.com writes: sad1199 wrote: > I have a question that has probably already been posted. If so, > please direct me... Question is, what qualities does Ron possess to > make him a prefect? Unless Dumbledore chose him to help protect > Harry in the future, I would think that his ordinary grades and lack > of leadership would eliminate him from the process. One would think > Seamus or Dean would be better prefect material than Ron. Del replies : I don't have the post numbers to direct you to, but someone else will surely post them later. I just want to say that I am a tiny bit offended at the way you dismiss Ron. His grades might be ordinary, but then so are the grades of all others, except Hermione, and Harry in DADA, as far as we know. So the other boys would not have been better choices on that point. No leadership qualities ? I beg to differ. Right from the first book when Ron directs Harry and Hermione on the giant chess set, we see that he *can* lead if he has a *reason* to. But the thing is, most of the time, he doesn't have any reason to lead. As the youngest of the Weasley brothers, he's used to older brothers deciding for him. And as Harry and Hermione's friend, both leaders too, he's quite happy to follow them in a life of fun and adventures. Everybody can't be a leader at the same time. Ron's leadership abilities (courage, initiative, strategy, and so on) are latent, but they are most definitely present in him. And we've never seen Seamus or Dean lead anything or anyone either. Del Yes, and his leadership qualities stayed latent the entire year. He was a do nothing prefect. Did nothing on his own and didn't help Hermione when she called for his assistance. Neil The Nefarious Court Jester of the Royal Family of Cliffies [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rebekia_krum at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 12 18:36:22 2004 From: rebekia_krum at yahoo.co.uk (rebekia_krum) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:36:22 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105852 > GEO: And seeing how Harry's family is dead and there isn't any magic > that can make the dead living then I'm guessing Ron has as much of a > chance becoming head boy and quidditch captain that Harry has of > being reunited with his father and mother in the living world. Rebekia replies: I'd have to disagree with this one. Ron becoming a Keeper and helping Gryffindor win....never would have guessed it in a million years. I think the events that take place in OotP will help Ron build the confidence he needs to be a true leader....without Harry always being there. Someone's future is completely charted by their own ambition and actions whereas someones past cannot be altered and changed because of desire. From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 20:50:57 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:50:57 -0000 Subject: Why Sirius was Chosen as Godparent & Sirius' sacrifice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105853 Jen wrote: Now back to Godric's Hollow. What if Sirius being willing to die for Harry has more significance than previously thought? What if James & Lily chose him for this specific reason? In other words, there's more to this guardian selection, some additional protection conveyed onto Harry if Sirius does indeed die while attempting to protect him, similar to but not as powerful as Lily's sacrifice. Sort of a strengthening of Lily's sacrifice. This is probably something Dumbledore is unaware of until OOTP, or perhaps is still unaware of, something between Lily/James/Sirius, that may even involves a charm cast between them. For we know that Lily's sacrifice is *separate* from the charm Dumbledore placed on Harry before he was delivered to Petunia. And Sirius, loyal dog that he is, makes a choice. He can stay, cramped in Buckbeak's room, awaiting execution. OR, he can die fighting and give Harry much more protection than he will ever be able to give alive. Given that situation, there's really only one choice Sirius would make. vmonte responds: This is a cool theory! JKR did say that there was a reason why Sirius had to die. Your theory may be why. vmonte again: In the catholic church when a child is baptised there is an entire ceremony that includes the godfather and godmother. Perhaps Lily's protection is symbolic for Harry's Baptism. from website search: Romans 6:3-5 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. This is the Biblical way to be born again to new life. If Lily's ancient magic was activated during the ceremony that initiated Sirius as the godfather, then perhaps this ceremony also activated the extra protection for Harry -- Sirius Black. from the world wide web: Both words, "godparent" and "sponsor" mean the same. They are interchangeable. ...while the sponsor of a child for the Sacrament of Baptism is referred to as a "godparent," "godmother," or "godfather," the proper term to use is "sponsor." Sponsor, latin for "sponsor," a person of either sex who speaks for the one to be baptized during the ceremony and after Baptism assumes spiritual guardianship over the subject. Perhaps Sirius will become Harry's guardian Angel so-to-speak! vivian From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 20:58:24 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:58:24 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: <20040712165949.71403.qmail@web25302.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105854 I, Del, wrote : > Harry is *forced* into his life of risk and adventure. He's not > *looking* for it. He didn't choose it. > Ron, on the other hand, chose to stick with Harry even when he > realised that this was leading him into a rough life. So IMO if > anyone showed that they wanted an extraordinary life, it's Ron, not > Harry. Udderpd answered : > Let us not forget that Hermione also chooses to stay with Harry. If > her target were just Ron she would not have to be so closely involved > with Harry. Del replies : First, let me apologise, Udderpd, for not understanding what your "chooses" referred to. I wasn't trying to be sneaky or anything, I just didn't figure it out. Sorry. Now, I must say I'm not sure I get your point. Ron and Hermione chose to stay with Harry back in their first year. I seriously doubt Hermione had any interest in anyone at that time. Once she chose to stay with Harry no matter what, and their friendhsip deepened over several years, I can't imagine her trying to break up the Trio when she discovered her feelings for Ron were changing (assuming they did, don't jump on me, anyone !). What kind of friend would she be ?? "Oops, sorry Harry, I didn't mind helping you as long as you two were equally my friends. But now I'd like to spend more time alone with Ron, so would you mind if we let you handle things alone ?" Not my Hermione, nope :-) Del From Ali at zymurgy.org Mon Jul 12 21:03:21 2004 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:03:21 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry in the Contex In-Reply-To: <40F1A1B0.25588.2991A76@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105855 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" wrote: > It seems obvious to many people who are familiar with both > the Harry Potter books and the institutional qualities of > British Public Schools that J.K. Rowling has, to a greater > or less extent, chosen to use the British Public School > model in considering how she presents Hogwarts to her > readership. It must be stated immediately that Hogwarts is > not a perfect exemplar of the Public School tradition - > while there is a substantial influence, it cannot be assumed > that Hogwarts always follows Public School traditions. It is > a unique school in many ways, but there are enough > influences from the tradition that an awareness of the > traditions of such schools may serve to enhance the > understanding and appreciation of the school for some > readers. Shaun, this was a fantastic post and I hope that it will clarify for some, what you and I are perhaps fortunate enough to take for granted. I do disagree with you on a number of issues that you use as specific pointers for Hogwarts being similar to a typical English Public School, although not on the general picture. The fact is many British schools have houses, uniforms and prefects. None of those facts alone or collectively would make me feel that Hogwarts is like a public school. I think it would be correct to say that many English schools have borrowed their traditions from the longer established public schools, but that is regardless of their place in the public or state sector. These traditions have been borrowed from the Public School System simply because they were the only really established pattern from which to build on. Had Harry gone to his local comprehensive, we know that he would have had to have worn a grey uniform. For me, it is not a stretch to imagine that he would have been in a house or told off by prefects. I do agree that there *is* something very public-school like about Hogwarts. I suspect for me it has something to do with the way that Hogwarts is steeped in traditions and rules but primarily because it is a boarding school. The intensity of the inter-house rivalry is perhaps more akin to public schools than state, but my 6 year old still accrues house points each week, and the winning house gets a treat at the end of each term. Her school is most definitely state, and always has been. Ali From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Mon Jul 12 21:12:25 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:12:25 -0000 Subject: Out On A Limb About Florence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105856 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snazzzybird" wrote: > Now that JKR has let the air out of the Mark Evans trial balloon, I'm > going to go out on a limb with a fearless prediction: > > Florence will prove to be another Mark. > I think you're probably right. There are two conflicting aspects in the HP world, and they're continually pulling against each other. One is the fact that this is all invented by someone, and we expect that if the author has invented something, it's for a reason. The other is that Rowling is trying to create a believable "world", and as we know from our own world, there are lots and lots of things in it that are not connected at all. Sometimes, her purpose for creating something may be only to add another "thing" into her world - another detail, to create a more realistic feel. When we start trying to attach important meaning to everything in the HP books, we can start to sound like conspiracy theorists, who see a Grand Design behind everything, no matter how unrelated. It would be like putting myself in a story, and mentioning that my house is located exactly between a beach and a gas station; someone could come up with a great theory of why this is or will be significant, when in fact, my house just IS between a beach and a gas station. There's no significance to it at all, that's just where it was built. So it could well be that lots of the characters Rowling has mentioned will have no important role to play in the story - they're just there to create a more detailed backdrop for the real action. Wanda From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 21:12:35 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:12:35 -0000 Subject: X-Post: Things that Scare you in the Wizard World. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105857 The group member 'Udder_Pen_Dragon' posted this in the Off-Topic group. It starts with a comment about a Fan Fiction he/she wrote that involves the used of Veritaserum, but it ends with a comment about the wizard world that I thought was sufficiently On-Topic and interesting to be discussed here. Below, you will find Udder_Pen_Dragon's orginal comment and my reply. In my reply, I have focused on the wizard world and not addresses his fan fiction beyond it's relevance to the books and the wizard world itself. Deals with- ethics Veritaserum, use of Wizard's court and law Wizard's Bill of Rights Ministry authority Percy (briefly) Hopefully, the Mods will forgive me if I have overstepped my bounds. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - From: udder_pen_dragon Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 11:10 am Subject: The Wizard World NOT a nice place http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/23172 I was Writing an answer to a review of one of my stories on FF.net . I had just had DM taken into custody on the Veritaserum extracted word of LM after the battle in the MoM and I was told that I can't do that. This got me thinking and now I come to the point. The MoM sent Sirius to Azkaban for life without a trial, probably without even talking to him. Fudge had Barty Crouch effectively murdered (Dementors Kiss) without even speaking to him then spent a year denying the return of Voldemort. So what did Dumbledore say about it, "now he can't testify." There was no question as to whether it was within Fudge's authority to do this, ergo I assume that it is within his remit. There are possibly others but these two will do, it's just that I find this a bit scary. TTFN Udder PenDragon [--Below is my response minus quotes from the post above--] Asian_lovr2: I hear you asking several question, and I'm not sure which you intend for us to respond to. First, whether it is ethical or legal to use Veritaserum when questioning criminal suspects? We must remember that we have similar means available to us as muggles. We have Sodium Pentothal better know as Truth Serum. We have Lie Detector Machines. Yet the government is not allowed to use them against suspects. First and foremost because it is a violation of human rights. In the US, and I assume under precedents in English Common Law, it is the job of the government to prove we are guilty, not our job to prove we are innocent. Also, by US Law and the Constitution, a suspect can not be compelled to give testimony against himself. The next problem is that these methods are not reliable. Lie Detectors can be fooled by people who have no sense of right and wrong. A lie only registers if you feel a certain amount of emotional guilt about telling a lie. In addition, truth and falsehoods are subjective. Truth, sadly, is not alway absolute. Illustration- Question: Have you ever had sex with someone who was underage? This is very much like the question, 'have you stopped beating your wife?' To say 'Yes', implies that you were beating her but quit. To say 'No' implies that you are still beating her. Back to my actual question. In the context of a criminal investigation, to say 'Yes' implies that you are quilty of a sex crime. However, if you were 15 and were with a girl who was 15, then to say 'No' is a lie. Lie Detector Machines don't allow room for explanation or for fine distinctions. In addition, and as could be the case with Veritaserum, if a person believes something to be true, even though in reality it was false, the Veritaserum, would register the /belief/ and not the absolute truth. This is also true with muggle truth serum and lie detector machines. (And, Fudge implies as much in the 'Parting of the Ways'.) We know that the used of Veritaserum is strickly regulated by the Ministry of Magic (per Snape), and that implies by wizard's law, and we also know, thanks to Dumbledore, that there is an equivalent of a Wizard's Bill of Rights. Therefore, we can assume that the Ministry has definite restrictions on the extent to which it can use Veritaserum. (and restrictions on the evidence thereby obtained) Side Note: The thing I found the most frightening about the Wizengamot court, is the assumption that the Court is a neutral unbiased advocate for justice and truth. That would by extension imply that the court is the advocate of the accused and is there to assure that the accused is given a fair and unbiased trial. Well, we see how that belief is 'fairytale' in the extreme. I was extremely bothered by the fact that the accused was not /required/ to have his own personal truly neutral advocate available to insure that the trial was indeed fair, and that his rights truly were protected. Imagine, Harry's hearing if Dumbledore has not been there to protect him? That is truly scary. As far as Fudge/The Minister and his authority, I think they are operating under the same principle that guides the Wizard's Court as described in the side note above. Since the Minister is a representative of the people, by extension, he is looking out for the best interests of the people, and should have authority to act in that best interest. In a perfect world that might work, but in a world of power, corruption, greed, ego, insecurity, and desire, we can easily see how hopelessly flawed the system is. In another side note, I will point out that this widely held belief that the government is truly an advocate of the people and is looking out for the best interest of the citizens, may be (part of) the reason why Percy so readily sided with Fudge in the matter of Voldemort's return. He could have been sway by youthful idealism and faith in the system. And, you are right, it is a bit scary. Steve/asian_lovr2 From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Mon Jul 12 21:15:22 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:15:22 -0000 Subject: Who's the third dead death eater? / 'One who's left me forever...' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105858 >>> Neri's speculation: > Harry gets back from the graveyard, tells everybody > that LV is back and names several DEs, but he doesn't mention Snape. Fudge storms out, and DD says to Snape: "Severus, you know what I must ask you to do. If you are prepared?" Snape answers, "I am" and sweeps out. Up to here it's canon, from here on ? my speculation: > Snape gets out of the Hogwarts grounds and takes a small object out > of its robes: it's a time turner. Snape turns it six or seven times, then he waits until his Dark Mark appears, and disaparates to the graveyard. He knows that LV will recognize him but will not name him (because Harry didn't hear it). Now to the part that the Snape fans will really like: Maybe, when Harry is running from the DEs and LV towards the Goblet, Snape curses the DE's from behind so they fail to hit Harry. He should do it very covertly, however, because while he knows that Harry did manage to get away, he doesn't know that he (the Snape from the future) got away with it. <<< Bren now: I have always wondered how Snape could be present at VM's Rebirth Ceremony, but your theory cleared it very nicely! It makes a *lot* of sense to me. Thanks Neri!! >>> Neri continues: However, this lives the position of the "one who left me forever" open, and I don't believe it is Fudge (see post #105541 for my reasons). --------------------------------------------------------------------- Neri's Post #105541 -- The main reason I don't believe Fudge was "the one who left me forever" is that if Fudge was a DE, he has to have the Dark Mark, and his Dark Mark must have summoned him to the graveyard. In fact, he should have felt his Dark Mark becoming stronger through the whole year before, just like Snape and Karkaroff. He would have known for sure that Voldy is back. Why then would he refuse to believe DD and Harry? Not only that, he fought against DD for a whole year, causing a lot of damage to the war against LV. If Fudge is an ex-DE on the run from Voldy, then he should have made any effort to help DD. DD is his only hope of staying alive. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Brenda now: I will copy and paste PART of the essay "The Missing Death Eater" (Essay #15, from North Tower Column, Mugglenet.com) that might answer your question: --------------------------------------[From "The Missing Death Eater"] 1) It has to be a character of some consequence, because he will probably have quite a big role to play in the last books. I doubt very much that it'll be a new character or somebody that nobody knows anything of (like Professor Tufty for example). I think JKR will use this character as a surprise, a little shock to the readers who didn't think he was a Death Eater at all. 2) Okay, this gives us quite a list. My possible candidates are: Prof. Flitwick, Prof. Binns and Hagrid at Hogwarts; Lupin, Mundungus, Kingsley, Arthur Weasley, Moody, Aberforth, Dumbledore and Sirius in the Order; and Lockhart, Crouch, Sr., Bagman, Amos Diggory and Cornelius Fudge in general society. Let's take them off one by one shall we? - Prof. Flitwick: in the Order and seems way too sweet and nice. - Prof. Binns: totally uninterested by anything except History of Magic. - Hagrid: Too close to Dumbledore - Lupin: Seems too decent, gut feeling. - Mundungus: a crook that was helped out of a tight spot by Dumbledore some sixteen years ago. Possible, but I don't think so. - Kingsley: I really don't think so, plus I have him on my "canon fodder" list. - Arthur Weasley: Too close to Dumbledore - Moody: same thing, plus he'd probably not have been as effective in catching Death Eaters if he was one of them. - Aberforth: I think that Aberforth is the barman in the Hog's Head (he kind of looks like Dumbledore and there is a smell of goats around the place). I think he was the one who threw out the eavesdropping DE the night of Prof. Trelawney's first prophecy (and no, I don't think that the eavesdropper was Mundungus). Plus, he' Dumbledore's brother, so no. - Dumbledore: That would be pretty bad. Dumbledore's the only person Voldemort fears and the only one that calls him "Tom" and isn't afraid of him. I really can't see him being Voldy's humble servant. - Sirius: No, because he seems to hate everything about dark magic. Plus, he's dead now so there's no point for him to play that role. - Lockhart: He's too poor a wizard and too vain to recognize Voldemort as his master. - Crouch. Sr.: Fought hard against Voldemort and is also dead = no point - Bagman: I think he's a bit too thick, to tell you the truth. He's like a sporty version of Lockhart. - Amos Diggory: Too concerned about what's right. Okay, for all the above characters I don't think that they're the missing Death Eaters for more or less fuzzy reasons, but the most important one is that Voldemort's words can only apply to ONE person, and I think that that person is Cornelius Fudge (i.e., if it is Fudge, then all the others are excluded automatically, like with Neville and Harry: if one of them is the One, the other one isn't, as there can only be ONE One). I thus don't really have to prove that each character above isn't the missing Death Eater, only that the one character I've chosen is (i.e. attacks should be on the argumentation concerning Fudge, not on the short arguments above as they are of no consequence). Why Fudge? Well, for a bunch of different reasons: 1) He's very ambitious and doesn't mind using dishonest tricks to remain in power (e.g. badmouthing Harry and Dumbledore, changing Harry's hearing at the last minute and creating new (pretty fascist) school rules.) 2) He's very good friends with Lucius Malfoy and places too much importance in the "purity of blood" (GoF). 3) This person described by Voldemort is one who was a Death Eater but who left Voldemort but probably didn't join the opposing side (the Order), as indicated by "believe." He probably wasn't one of Voldemort's most ardent supporters (i.e., he could have been unknown by most of the other Death Eaters) as Voldemort doesn't specify who he is. I get an image of an ambitious character who probably turned to Voldemort out of fear and/or to achieve power and then, when he had achieved that power, wanted to leave him. He probably left after Voldemort's fall, as there seems to be no clear rupture between them (for one thing, he's still alive), when he deemed it safe to be his own master again. He's now extremely happy with the situation, able to suppress the memory of his Death Eater days and scared to death that Voldemort will return as that would ruin his life and career. Sounds like somebody we know? If we look at Fudge's background we find that he worked for the Ministry but that he only got the Minister of Magic job when Crouch, Sr.'s son was judged a Death Eater (maybe there was a reason to why Crouch, Jr. got caught?...). Fudge then became MoM and kept very close to Dumbledore in the beginning (looking for protection in case his old master came back?...) but then got more and more confident (as time passed without Voldemort coming back) and stopped listening to Dumbledore. Other than that, we don't know much about him. Nothing of his background, his time at Hogwarts, etc. (although I'd be willing to bet that he was a Slytherin). He's a bit mysterious. 4) This character (the missing DE) ought to be extremely afraid that Voldemort should ever come back. That would ruin his world. He does not want that and will try to prevent it in any way possible (makes sense, Voldemort would kill him). What is Fudge's reaction when Harry tells him about Voldemort's rebirth? Denial. Very strong denial even. Fudge simply refuses to believe the truth and continues on this path all through Book 5. He'd rather believe that Harry has lost his mind and that Dumbledore is conspiring against him, even though that makes no sense. Fudge is not stupid. If he'd look at things in a rational way, he'd see that the only sensible explanation is the one offered by Harry and Dumbledore. He doesn't. He refuses to. If he's been a Death Eater, he'll have the Mark. He'll have felt it burn the night of Voldemort's return, just like Snape and the others. This could be why he reacts so strongly when Snape shows him his Mark. I mean, he lets out a yelp of fear. As I understood it, nobody but the Death Eaters knows about the Mark on the arm of all of Voldemort's supporters (if it was general knowledge, then the "good guys" would have had it a lot easier at the trials, for example). If Fudge hasn't been a DE, he wouldn't know about it, so why then react so strongly when he saw it on Snape's arm? Sure, the Mark in itself is a scary thing, but I think that there is more to it than that. Especially as, a little while later, he seems to give in to reason and says, "He can't be back Dumbledore, he just can't" (GoF). This seems to be a wish rather than a rational statement. In his heart he knows the truth but he refuses to see it. He most certainly felt his Mark burn too, but explained it away somehow (like some women manage to convince themselves that they're not pregnant (God, I'm getting fat, must cut down on the chocolate) and panic when they "all of a sudden" get severe contractions. ("It must be something I ate! Help!")). It's like the Muggles who are so easy to hide magic from because they simply refuse to believe in it, even if a stone turns into a cow in front of them. That is how I see Cornelius Fudge in Books 4 and 5. He sees what he wants to see. 5) Fudge's relationship with Lucius Malfoy and other DE (like Nott and Macnair). Karkaroff said when witnessing that the DE didn't know who all the other DE were. At Voldemort's rebirth, Voldemort named some of the DE and just went past others in silence, not revealing who they were. If Fudge used to be a Death Eater, it's possible (and even probable) that most of the other ones didn't know about him. I think that we can be pretty sure that some knew however, and that Cornelius knew about them in return. Fudge is Minister of Magic. Several DE work for the Ministry. Wonder how that came about... Malfoy reeks of Dark Magic, and everybody in the Order knows exactly where his loyalties lie. In spite of that, he was never convicted as a DE (even though he was probably the most well-known among the DE themselves, seeing as he's very close to Voldemort). Again, I wonder why that is... This is, of course, a big conspiracy theory, but what if the DE who work at the MoM are the ones who know about Fudge? Maybe there's blackmail involved. Maybe in both directions (i.e., Malfoy shuts up about Fudge if Fudge shuts up about Malfoy, not to forget all the money that Malfoy gives to Fudge. I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine...). It seems like a big game, who is manipulating whom, really? This is what I think: -- Fudge is the DE referred to by Voldemort as the one who has probably left him forever. He knows that Malfoy and the other DE who work at the MoM used to be DE but probably thinks that they've done what he's done and decided to work for themselves. Lucius and co. are smart enough not to fill him in on their boss's return because Cornelius does such a good job unconsciously helping them (or is it really unconsciously? Maybe he knows that Voldemort is back and figures that his best chance of survival is to play along, or at least not oppose him...). Cornelius has achieved his ambitions, and now he wants things to stay the way they are. He doesn't want to get dragged into a conflict between Voldemort's supporters and Voldemort's opponents, and he doesn't want his previous alliance to be known to the public because they'd kick him out of office. I think that this is the key to Fudge: he doesn't really care about much except securing his own power. (In PoA, for example, does he protect Harry because he's concerned about him or because it would be very bad publicity to have Harry killed by an Azkaban fugitive?) -- This leaves one question: What does he know about Snape, Wormtail and Sirius and their connections to Voldemort? Malfoy seemingly didn't know about Sirius being an animagus before Wormtail told them all somewhere between Books 4 and 5, so the other DE probably didn't either. It's possible that Fudge was unaware of the whole "Wormtail being the true spy and DE"-part and thought that he was going after the right man in PoA. More interesting still is his relationship to Snape. Obviously Fudge knows that Snape used to be a DE (everybody does), but what does Snape know? Remember that Snape and Malfoy are very close. I think he knows about Fudge, but for some reason or other, he's chosen not to reveal this little piece of especially juicy information to the rest of the Order (or maybe Dumbledore knows, who knows? He's famous for being discrete and giving second chances after all...). This theory (if it's correct) opens up for a whole new twist on the story. Many people have guessed that Percy will play a pivotal role in Books 6 and 7 and that he'll have to make a choice about whose side he wants to fight on. Percy, who in Book 5 is made Junior Undersecretary to none other than Cornelius Fudge... A good position for getting to know things about his employer... Maybe Fudge hired him to get information on the Weasleys and on Dumbledore (he probably did), but he just might get impaled upon his own sword if he's not careful. This also creates a need for a new Minister of Magic (Fudge's bad handling of Voldemort's return might be smoothed over, but the fact that he once was a part of the "team" certainly won't be. Assuming he survives, Voldemort has vowed to kill him after all. He'll probably be dead the moment he no longer can be of use to the DE). Who knows, maybe Arthur Weasley will get the top job as so many seem to think. As for Fudge, he'll have to choose sides at the beginning of Book 6 and his choice will be an essential one: will he join forces with Dumbledore, or will he go back to Voldemort in an attempt to save his own skin? (Also, does he or does he not have an army of fire creatures to help whatever side he picks?) ------------------------------------[End of "The Missing Death Eater"] For complete article, refer to Brenda From greatelderone at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 21:18:50 2004 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:18:50 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105859 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > Once she chose to stay with Harry no matter what, and their friendhsip > deepened over several years, I can't imagine her trying to break up > the Trio when she discovered her feelings for Ron were changing > (assuming they did, don't jump on me, anyone !). What kind of friend > would she be ?? GEO: How about an honest one? I don't see how Hermione being with Ron or Harry for that matter and the trio still being close friends are incompatible? From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Jul 12 21:31:58 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:31:58 -0000 Subject: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105860 Laurasia: After all, is he is a kind powerful headmaster, why does he let a nasty bullying teacher bully his kids. Surely, Dumbledore should stop it the second he discovers it. Either he doesn't know, or he isn't the kind powerful head master Harry thinks he is, or else he wants it to happen. >snip< Pippin: It doesn't seem to be Dumbledore's job to evaluate the teachers. In PoA, it's the school's board of governors who tell Hagrid he started too big and should have done flobberworms. Snape's bullying style is unacceptable to a lot of us, along with Trelawney's outright fraud and Hagrid's incompetence, not to mention Binns, but the BoG apparently doesn't have a problem with any of it. It's also perfectly consistent with a Dumbledore who believes in letting people make up their own minds and would rather have people disagree with him and be wrong, than agree only because he's Albus Dumbledore and he said so. Laurasia: > For instance, it would matter little whether Ron and Hermione were there with Harry, so long as he made it through the obstacles. Their presence there makes little difference to Harry.< You don't think it makes a difference to Harry that Ron was willing to die for him? Or that he discovers that, despite appearances, courage and friendship are more important to Hermione than books and cleverness? Harry may not act any differently in the short run, but this is a seven book series. And what about the fact that Harry has to *choose* go on alone? He knew he would be no match for Snape and he could have gone back with Hermione to get help. Similarly, he could have tried to help Ron open the blocked passage in CoS rather than go on alone to the Chamber. Laurasia: >What is Hermione's breaking point? She's never been tested, so we don't know. < Pippin: We know when she decided to break rules for Harry--that was a test. There are many others. She's not the main character, so her tests aren't going to be as dramatic as Harry's, and they're not going to come when they would undercut his. Laurasia: What does it take to scare Ron? > Hey, they guy goes into the forest after the spiders, even though it is what he fears most in the world out of loyalty to his friends- Harry, imprisoned!Hagrid and petrified!Hermione. He doesn't runaway like a coward! He vomits into the pumpkin patch, that's all! > What does it take to make Ron lose his faith in Harry? Pippin: We know that. It happened in GoF, when Ron thought Harry had entered the TWT without him. Again, Ron's tests aren't as dramatic as Harry's and they are timed so that they don't distract our attention from what Harry is doing. Pippin From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 21:28:14 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:28:14 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105861 I, Del, wrote : > > So I say that what applies to Ron applies also to Harry. If Ron > > can't have Hermione because he will have an ordinary life, then > > neither can Harry. GEO answered : > Except do you really think that Harry will have an ordinary > life after the war ends. Ron might have a more mundane life, but > Harry is pretty much still going to be fighting the good fight after > the war ends. Del replies : Then my guess is : so will Ron. If there's a battle for Harry to fight, I don't see Ron dropping out on him. As far as we know, Ron's ambition to become an Auror is just as strong as Harry's. On the other hand, we don't know that Harry will want to keep fighting once his necessary part in vanquishing LV will be done. He might very well be sick of fighting by that time (or have too many bleeding, hurting wounds to care anymore), and decide to become a Quidditch player, or even to settle with a nice girl somewhere far away and live off his fortune, at least for a while. He didn't ask to be a hero, he never wanted to be one, so he might very well decide to drop the whole thing once his Prophesied task is over. I, Del, wrote : > > And I'm reminded of Harry's fantasy dreams about Cho : he wanted > > her to admire him. GEO answered : > Especially during a time when most of the wizard world was > thinking that he was a liar and possibly insane with all those > articles that were being written by the MoM's propaganda corps. Del replies : I seem to remember that after watching the Quidditch World Cup, Harry envisions himself as a star Quidditch player like Krum, and he sees Cho's face in the crowd, glowing with admiration. I, Del, wrote : > > Ron, on the other hand, chose to stick with Harry even when he > > realised that this was leading him into a rough life. So IMO if > > anyone showed that they wanted an extraordinary life, it's Ron, not > > Harry. GEO answered : > I really don't know how you came to this conclusion. Seems to > me that Ron sticks by Harry because of loyality Del replies : There's a limit to everything, even to loyalty. Ron might have started to follow Harry out of loyalty, but it's pretty obvious to me that at one time or another, he had to *choose*, to *decide* just how far he would go for Harry. I can't believe that Ron (or Hermione for that matter) would keep on getting himself in mortal danger just out of loyalty for a friend. GEO wrote : > And seeing how Harry's family is dead and there isn't any magic > that can make the dead living then I'm guessing Ron has as much of a > chance becoming head boy and quidditch captain that Harry has of > being reunited with his father and mother in the living world. Del replies : False. Harry has NO chance of ever being reunited with his parents in this world. Ron DOES have a chance, however small, to become Head Boy and Quidditch captain. Anyway, that wasn't the point. My point was that Harry's deepest desire, at age 11, was for family. Ron's deepest desire was for honours and excitement. Which completely contradicts the statement that all Ron will want is a quiet family life while Harry will be leading a life of adventures. Del From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Mon Jul 12 21:46:05 2004 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:46:05 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105862 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" wrote: > I don't see how Hermione being with Ron or Harry for that matter and > the trio still being close friends are incompatible? Seeing all these great debates about which of the two boys ends up with Hermione, I wonder if anyone considers that she is not really interested in either of them romantically at this point. I agree that Ron has a crash on her, and I think that Harry may become interested in her, though has not so far. She clearly loves both of them - but only as *friends*. For the time being, I have the impression that she considers both of them too immature for any romantic involvement. Instead she writes volumes of letters to Victor Krum (4 years her senior). The truth is that neither Ron nor Harry are at the stage yet where they can sustain a romantic relationship, certainly not with a girl as mature as Hermione. Having a son who (like Harry) will be 16 in a few weeks, this does not surprise me in the least - they are simply not ready yet. Hermione will stick to dating older guys for the time being, I think. For that matter, how many high school relationships make it to marriage in the real world - or in the WW for that matter. We may end the series with no resolution on the dating part - just like in real life! Salit From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Jul 12 21:53:56 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:53:56 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105863 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > > Pippin earlier: > > > The Marauders were breaking school rules and wizarding law > > > and *deserved* to be expelled for what they were doing, as > > > Sirius knew quite well. Snape following them to try to find out > > > what they were up to is no different than Harry and his friends > > > entering the third floor corridor to try to keep Snape (as they > > > thought) from stealing the stone. > > > > Alla: > > > Noble intentions to try and get expelled four boys, who would not get a chance to get an education same quality as Hogwarts and as for Lupin , no education at all? Somehow I don't think so. But I could be wrong, of course.< Pippin: You seem to forget what the Marauders were up to. They were not cuddling in a furry heap in the Shrieking Shack. They were taking a werewolf into populated areas, where Lupin might have bitten someone. It would have been too bad if they'd been expelled and not realized their full potential as wizards, but they should have thought of that before they went Marauding, shouldn't they? Why should their futures matter more than the future of the innocent people in Hogsmeade they were endangering? Alla: > But even assuming noble intentions on the Snape's part, we don't know what punishment Marauders deserved for becoming an Animagi.< Pippin: Whatever the punishment for becoming an illegal Animagus, it was severe enough to cow Rita Skeeter. Even being out of work for a year was preferable. But it's taking Lupin into Hogsmeade that is truly reprehensible. I have yet to hear any credible excuse for that. > Alla: > > > No, we don't know what Snape's motives are, but the problem > with "Snape thought something terrible was happening... and tried to stop it the only way he could " is as Batchevra pointed out that he saw Lupin going in Shrieking Shack with Madam Pomfrey, so Snape could make a guess that Teaching Staff is already aware of whatever happens in the Shack and mind his own business. > Snape shoud have at least tried to communicate with the teacher first.< Well, we don't know that he didn't, do we? I admit that we don't know whether anyone was aware of the close calls in Hogsmeade. But suppose that Snape was. He could have said, paraphrasing Harry, " I think that Si- that someone from the school is causing trouble in Hogsmeade every full moon." And he'd have been told that Lupin's absences had nothing to do with it. And that would have been quite mistaken. Pippin From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 12 21:53:07 2004 From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:53:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] X-Post: Things that Scare you in the Wizard World. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040712215307.1223.qmail@web25303.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105864 Steve wrote: The group member 'Udder_Pen_Dragon' posted this in the Off-Topic group. It starts with a comment about a Fan Fiction he/she wrote that involves the used of Veritaserum, but it ends with a comment about the wizard world that I thought was sufficiently On-Topic and interesting to be discussed here. Below, you will find Udder_Pen_Dragon's orginal comment and my reply. In my reply, I have focused on the wizard world and not addresses his fan fiction beyond it's relevance to the books and the wizard world itself. Deals with- ethics Veritaserum, use of Wizard's court and law Wizard's Bill of Rights Ministry authority Percy (briefly) Hopefully, the Mods will forgive me if I have overstepped my bounds. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - From: udder_pen_dragon Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 11:10 am Subject: The Wizard World NOT a nice place http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/23172 I was Writing an answer to a review of one of my stories on FF.net . I had just had DM taken into custody on the Veritaserum extracted word of LM after the battle in the MoM and I was told that I can't do that. This got me thinking and now I come to the point. The MoM sent Sirius to Azkaban for life without a trial, probably without even talking to him. Fudge had Barty Crouch effectively murdered (Dementors Kiss) without even speaking to him then spent a year denying the return of Voldemort. So what did Dumbledore say about it, "now he can't testify." There was no question as to whether it was within Fudge's authority to do this, ergo I assume that it is within his remit. There are possibly others but these two will do, it's just that I find this a bit scary. TTFN Udder PenDragon [--Below is my response minus quotes from the post above--] Asian_lovr2: I hear you asking several question, and I'm not sure which you intend for us to respond to. First, whether it is ethical or legal to use Veritaserum when questioning criminal suspects? We must remember that we have similar means available to us as muggles. We have Sodium Pentothal better know as Truth Serum. We have Lie Detector Machines. Yet the government is not allowed to use them against suspects. First and foremost because it is a violation of human rights. In the US, and I assume under precedents in English Common Law, it is the job of the government to prove we are guilty, not our job to prove we are innocent. Also, by US Law and the Constitution, a suspect can not be compelled to give testimony against himself. The next problem is that these methods are not reliable. Lie Detectors can be fooled by people who have no sense of right and wrong. A lie only registers if you feel a certain amount of emotional guilt about telling a lie. In addition, truth and falsehoods are subjective. Truth, sadly, is not alway absolute. Illustration- Question: Have you ever had sex with someone who was underage? This is very much like the question, 'have you stopped beating your wife?' To say 'Yes', implies that you were beating her but quit. To say 'No' implies that you are still beating her. Back to my actual question. In the context of a criminal investigation, to say 'Yes' implies that you are quilty of a sex crime. However, if you were 15 and were with a girl who was 15, then to say 'No' is a lie. Lie Detector Machines don't allow room for explanation or for fine distinctions. In addition, and as could be the case with Veritaserum, if a person believes something to be true, even though in reality it was false, the Veritaserum, would register the /belief/ and not the absolute truth. This is also true with muggle truth serum and lie detector machines. (And, Fudge implies as much in the 'Parting of the Ways'.) We know that the used of Veritaserum is strickly regulated by the Ministry of Magic (per Snape), and that implies by wizard's law, and we also know, thanks to Dumbledore, that there is an equivalent of a Wizard's Bill of Rights. Therefore, we can assume that the Ministry has definite restrictions on the extent to which it can use Veritaserum. (and restrictions on the evidence thereby obtained) Side Note: The thing I found the most frightening about the Wizengamot court, is the assumption that the Court is a neutral unbiased advocate for justice and truth. That would by extension imply that the court is the advocate of the accused and is there to assure that the accused is given a fair and unbiased trial. Well, we see how that belief is 'fairytale' in the extreme. I was extremely bothered by the fact that the accused was not /required/ to have his own personal truly neutral advocate available to insure that the trial was indeed fair, and that his rights truly were protected. Imagine, Harry's hearing if Dumbledore has not been there to protect him? That is truly scary. As far as Fudge/The Minister and his authority, I think they are operating under the same principle that guides the Wizard's Court as described in the side note above. Since the Minister is a representative of the people, by extension, he is looking out for the best interests of the people, and should have authority to act in that best interest. In a perfect world that might work, but in a world of power, corruption, greed, ego, insecurity, and desire, we can easily see how hopelessly flawed the system is. In another side note, I will point out that this widely held belief that the government is truly an advocate of the people and is looking out for the best interest of the citizens, may be (part of) the reason why Percy so readily sided with Fudge in the matter of Voldemort's return. He could have been sway by youthful idealism and faith in the system. And, you are right, it is a bit scary. Steve/asian_lovr2 Udder PenDragon again Excellent post Steve Just a couple of points. The effect of Veritaserum appears to be quite unlike a lie detector, in that when you ask a question you get an answer which is the truth not a simple yes or no. The other point is that Snape had no compulsion about supplying it to Dumbledore to use on Barty Crouch junior. Again it appears to be a case of the ends justify the means, scary Bye again Udderpd ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From greatelderone at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 22:02:48 2004 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:02:48 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105865 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > On the other hand, we don't know that Harry will want to keep fighting > once his necessary part in vanquishing LV will be done. GEO: Harry is the main character. Even if he's done with Voldemort, there'll still be the remnants of his followers,other Dark Lords that'll probably want to knock Harry off in order to cement their status and finally the fact that he's just darn good at fighting the dark arts and has a thing for protecting people as Hermione said. > He might very > well be sick of fighting by that time (or have too many bleeding, > hurting wounds to care anymore), and decide to become a Quidditch > player, or even to settle with a nice girl somewhere far away and live > off his fortune, at least for a while. He didn't ask to be a hero, he > never wanted to be one, so he might very well decide to drop the whole > thing once his Prophesied task is over. GEO: Yes that might be true, but somehow I really don't think so. The heroes might quit for awhile, but they'll always be back to do their incredilby cliche job. Look at Dumbledore as an example. Fellow is still fighting the dark arts while being a headmaster. Harry might not have asked for the job, but he's doing it. Matter of a fact how many fictional characters have asked for the job of being the hero knowing that they'll get little reward from it? > Del replies : > I can't believe that Ron (or Hermione for that > matter) would keep on getting himself in mortal danger just out of > loyalty for a friend. GEO: I can. The three are just incredibly close friends. > False. Harry has NO chance of ever being reunited with his parents in > this world. Ron DOES have a chance, however small, to become Head Boy > and Quidditch captain. GEO: Thats exactly my point. Seeing how Harry's desires aren't even going to be fulfilled I very much doubt Ron's are going to be fulfilled either. Besides desires change, the stuff that one wanted when they are eleven is probably going to be different from the things they wanted when they are fifteen. > Anyway, that wasn't the point. My point was that Harry's deepest > desire, at age 11, was for family. Ron's deepest desire was for > honours and excitement. GEO: Actually it's explained that Ron wanted to stand out from his other siblings. None of them managed to become both a head boy and a quidditch captain. > Which completely contradicts the statement > that all Ron will want is a quiet family life while Harry will be > leading a life of adventures. GEO: I don't see any contradication at all. Standing out from your friends while doing alittle bit better than your parents is probably what most people want. From ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 16:17:05 2004 From: ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com (ohneill_2001) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:17:05 -0000 Subject: SHIP Luna Was Re:Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105868 maraphraim wrote: > > Prediction: Book six will feature a love triangle ? between Ron and > Harry and Luna Lovegood (yes, I've argued this before). This will > accomplish several things. Firstly, it will eventually give Harry > his requisite girlfriend; and secondly, it will finally break the > barrier for the eventual R/Hr ship. > My response: I've thought about this scenario before too, and it does seem likely (or at least possible) that romance might be on the horizon for Luna in Book 6. However, I have a question: why do you consider the scenario you raised to be more likely than a Ron/Luna pairing, which would ultimately clear the way for H/Hr? For Luna's part, it is obvious that earlier in Book 6, she was interested in Ron, and then at the end of the book, she connected with Harry, which could be evidence of a future 'ship, or it could simply be evidence of a friendship. I'm not saying that either of R/L or H/Hr is a done deal (although H/Hr is my ship of choice), but rather, I am only suggesting that there is evidence pointing toward Luna ending up with either of the two, and I don't see H/L as being any more likely than R/L. I was discussing the possibility of H/L on here a couple weeks ago, and I commented that it didn't seem quite right to me, although at the time I could not quite place my finger on why. Afterward, I re- read the passage at the end of OoP where Harry offered to help Luna find her things, and one thought that Harry had stuck out in my mind: he came to the realization that he "felt sorry for" Luna. Now, I realize that he may get to know her better in Books 6 & 7 and whatever he learns about her in those books might form the basis for a healthy relationship, but based on what we know now, all we know is that he pities her, which I would not argue supports a healthy 'ship. Best, --Cory From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 22:14:53 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:14:53 -0000 Subject: Out On A Limb About Florence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105869 >snazzzybird wrote: > Now that JKR has let the air out of the Mark Evans trial balloon, I'm > going to go out on a limb with a fearless prediction: > > Florence will prove to be another Mark. > (snip some good argumants> Neri: Heh, speaking as someone who has recently theorized about Florence, I have no problem agreeing with you. Or at least, agreeing that it's quite possible. BTW, I also had a strong suspicion that Mark is a nobody even before JKR officially said it. However, there is a difference between Mark and Florence. Mark is a muggle kid from Surrey. From the outset there wasn't any reason he should be important, except for his name. Florence, OTOH, was a student at Hogwarts. Moreover, she was a student together with several other wizards and witches who are instrumental to the plot (see #105599 for details). Moreover, there is very little known about her period at Hogwarts, but there are several indications that what happened during this period might be critical to the plot. Therefore, any scrap of information that JKR allows us about this period is likely to be important. But most of all, Florence is mentioned in a Pensieve memory of DD. How many occasions do we get to peek into DD's memories? Anything and anyone we find in there is likely to prove instrumental to the plot. Mark Evans (or rather, his name) was a simple mistake of JKR. Florence can't be a mistake. She's too much singled, smack in the middle of DD's memories, and what with the anonymous kisser and the hex. That's just too many intriguing details to be a mistake. Florence certainly might be a red herring. But then, almost any possible clue in HP might be a red herring, and that have never stopped us from theorizing. Neri From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 22:15:44 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:15:44 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105870 I, Del, wrote: > > What I meant was that Ron is always second-best to Harry : GEO answered : > Don't forget that Harry still can't beat Ron at chess. Del replies : Yep... except that nobody *cares* about that. He's not getting any kind of honours or recognition out of that. I, Del, wrote : > > Harry's got the money, the fame (even if he doesn't want it), the > > talent, the better looks, GEO replied : > What better looks? According to the books, fellow has knobby > knees and crappy hair and wears glasses. Del replies : And Ron is very tall and gangly, with big hands and feet, a long nose and flaming red hair. None of those (with the possible exception of the red hair) are considered positive attributes in teenagers. Harry, on the other hand, doesn't have so many bad traits. Knobbly knees don't show under wizard robes, unruly hair (not crappy) is often sexy, and glasses can make someone look good if they are the right type. Anyway, I wasn't arguing that Harry is good-looking (Pansy doesn't seem to think so, but then it's Pansy), just that he's better-looking than Ron, which doesn't seem to be difficult based on the mental image I get of Ron when I read his descriptions. I, Del, wrote : > > and he was supposed to get the Prefect badge. GEO answered : > And you're conveniently ignoring the fact that in the end it > was Ron that got the badge not Harry. Besides Ron is the one that > has the loving family, probably the friendlier attitude and less of > a dark history compared to Harry. Del replies : I'm not ignoring anything, that's even the problem : we readers *know* that even on the Prefect matter, Ron *was* second-best to start with. I positively *hated* it when DD said that to Harry. Ron has the loving family, sure. But we see right from the beginning that this big family created in him deep feelings of insecurity. In his family, he's not even number 2, he's number 6 ! The friendlier attitude : what do you mean by that ? The dark history : Harry didn't ask for it, but it attracts people's attention. Ron has nothing to attract people's attention. Let's be honest : Harry is known for himself, for good or bad. Ron is only the 6th Weasley brother and Harry's sidekick : nobody cares about him *personally* (outside of his circle of friends and family, I mean). GEO wrote : > As something pointed out once, to understand and develop these > characters you have to put the characters through challenges, > difficulties and heartbreaks. Del replies : I know, but that doesn't mean that the characters have to be put through every single possible challenge. I would just hate to see Ron put through *this particular* trial : seeing Harry go out with the girl Ron fancies, that's all. GEO wrote : > The fact remains that in the story Harry is the hero. Del replies : But that doesn't mean that Ron is "just an ordinary guy". He's not. GEO wrote : > He's still a kid. So far most kids start off all wanting to be > status symbols of society. No doubt that applies to wizard children. Del replies : Not Harry. Harry is the one who repeatedly, in pretty much every book, wishes he could just have a normal life, and isn't given a chance at it. And I don't think that many kids, at age 11, want more than anything else something they can't get before several years (Quidditch captain and Head Boy). For an 11-year-old boy, 17 is *very* far away. So to me, the fact that this is the only way the Mirror can translate Ron's deepest desire at age 11 indicates that he's got a *very strong* desire to do something with his life, to prove himself. He doesn't want a quiet, "normal" life for sure. I, Del, wrote : > > and he applied for the place of Keeper on the Quidditch team. GEO answered : > That might be because a good number of his brothers have been > on the qudditch team, that he's actually a decent Keeper and that > there hasn't been a position open on the team since their first year. Del replies : Exactly ! He takes the first occasion he's got to prove himself. And he doesn't take it lightly either : he trains every single night for a whole week. He *wants* to make it in the team, he *wants* to be someone. Del From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 12 22:18:27 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:18:27 -0000 Subject: Exclamation!!! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105871 A small point, but what is the origin of putting an exclamation mark between the name of a character and an attribute e.g. diary!Tom. I know why it is used, but wonder where and when it started. Sylvia From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 22:51:36 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:51:36 -0000 Subject: X-Post: Things that Scare you in the Wizard World. In-Reply-To: <20040712215307.1223.qmail@web25303.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105873 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, udder_pen_dragon wrote: > > ..edited...previous posts.... > > Udder PenDragon again > > Excellent post Steve Just a couple of points. > > The effect of Veritaserum appears to be quite unlike a lie detector, in that when you ask a question you get an answer which is the truth not a simple yes or no. > > The other point is that Snape had no compulsion about supplying it to Dumbledore to use on Barty Crouch junior. > > Again it appears to be a case of the ends justify the means, scary > > Bye again Udderpd Asian_lovr2 Glad you weren't offended that I moved your post to this group. As far as the Lie Detector Machine, my comments were more about the general uncertainty of 'truth teling' devices than specific comparison to Veritaserum. They were illustrations more than examples; I do that a lot. Of course, you are correct, Truth Serum, muggle or magic, results in a dialog, not just yes or no. But Barty Jr does seem drugged, and while able to speak the truth, he doesn't necessarily seem coherent enough to engage in a debate of the finer points of interpreting his statements. That's also true of muggle truth serum. In addition, Dumbledore's use of Veritaserum was probably in violation of the rules regulating the use of Truth Serum. However, Dumbledore was seeking the truth about what happened; gathering information that /he/ needed for /his/ purposes, not gathering evidence to be used in a trial. I think that is one reason why he was so upset with Fudge's use of the Dementor. Without a soul, Barty could not be OFFICIALLY questioned for purposes of gathering evidence that could be used at a trail, or establish that Voldemort was indeed back. -The Court- I really cringe everytime I think of that court scene at Harry's hearing. It seems very much that the wizard world is operating under the premise that the accused doesn't need counsel or an advocate because the court itself is there to insure fairness. That's not an exclusively wizard's idea, that concept, which can be easily rationalized, has been tried throughout history, and consistently with disasterous results. It is a system that invites and eventually guarantees coruption. I'm surprised wizards still put up with it. Just some thoughts. Steve/Asian_lovr2 From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 22:51:20 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:51:20 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat doesn't sort /WAS The sorting hat seems to think Harry... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105874 I, Del, wrote: > > Moreover, considering the reputation of Hufflepuff House (a load of > > duffers, if I'm not mistaken), I doubt many people would *want* to > > be Sorted there. happybean98 answered : > Well, we are reading the story primarily from Harry's point of view, > so I wouldn't dismiss the house simply because Harry thinks it would > be embarrassing to be there. Del replies : It wasn't Harry who called the Hufflepuffs a load of duffers, it was Hagrid if I remember correctly. Moreover, Hufflepuff quite simply doesn't have *any* trait that would appeal to most 11-year-old kids. Hard working ? Duh ! General niceness ? Rather die than admit it ! Maybe it would attract a few insecure kids, who would feel like it would pamper them more than the other, more demanding Houses, but that could in no way justify the vast amount of Hufflepuffs there is. happybean98 wrote : > Remember, Cedric Diggory was in Hufflepuff and got selected school > champion in book 4. He also had the admiration of both Cho and Fleur > at different times. Harry was even jealous of him. Del replies : He had the admiration of girls who were smitten with his good looks. But other than that, he was looked down upon by many people, one main reason being precisely that he was from Hufflepuff. As we are told at the end of GoF, Hufflepuff is a House that rarely gets any glory. Why would any normal kid want to be Sorted into such a House ?? I, Del, asked : > > And finally there's of course the problem of the Muggle-borns : how > > are they supposed to make their choice ? Just by talking with other > > students, like Harry did ? happybean98 answered : > But I think most eleven year olds have more ability to choose their > friends than you think. Remember, Harry met Draco Malfoy in the robes > shop well before he met Ron and Hermione, and even though Draco was > keen to befriend Harry, Harry didn't reciprocate. Del replies : Yes, Harry met *Draco*, who would turn any normal boy away from him in 2 seconds. But what if he had met, say, Theo Nott ? What if they had sympathised (they are both loners, and Theo never did or said anything bad to Harry), and Theo had told him - I hope we'll be in the same House. I'll probably be in Slytherin, all my family went there. It's a cool House when you want to really get to do things, it really helps you, that's what my father told me. And you, do you know where you'll be Sorted ? - Oh, no, not really. But it would sure be cool if we were together ! - Well, anyway, let's meet at the station, shall we ? - Sure, see you there ! Et voila ! Harry is in Slytherin. happybean98 wrote : > Also, Harry was an exceptional case because the Dursley's should have > told him about Hogwarts, and the WW, but they chose not to. Hermione > was muggle born, but she figured out the house system by > reading "Hogwarts a History". Del replies : Actually *Hermione* is the exception here. She was probably the only one who read that book. I'm pretty sure none, or very very few, of the other Muggle-born students knew about the different Houses. happybean98 wrote : > but I still say that if Harry knew nothing about the WW, let alone > Hogwarts until a day or so before he was sorted, and he still managed > to figure out where he wanted to be, why couldn't anyone else? Del replies : (Harry learned about the WW a whole month before he got to Hogwarts, but that doesn't matter to our discussion.) Because not everyone else happened to meet Draco Malfoy and have him remind them of the big brute that made their childhood miserable. And because not everyone else was lucky enough to meet Ron on the train. Anyway, Harry did *not* manage to figure out where he wanted to be. He knew where he did *not* want to be, in Slytherin. He also knew that he hoped to be with Ron, who waas *probably* going to be Sorted in Gryffindor, but that wasn't absolutely certain. What was certain though, by the time Harry got Sorted, was that Hermione had been Sorted in Gryffindor, and Harry did *not* wish to be with Hermione. A big mess, with no definite choice. Del From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 22:53:11 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:53:11 -0000 Subject: Ron as prefect? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105875 Del replies : I don't have the post numbers to direct you to, but someone else will surely post them later. I just want to say that I am a tiny bit offended at the way you dismiss Ron. His grades might be ordinary, but then so are the grades of all others, except Hermione, and Harry in DADA, as far as we know. So the other boys would not have been better choices on that point. No leadership qualities ? I beg to differ. Right from the first book when Ron directs Harry and Hermione on the giant chess set, we see that he *can* lead if he has a *reason* to. But the thing is, most of the time, he doesn't have any reason to lead. As the youngest of the Weasley brothers, he's used to older brothers deciding for him. And as Harry and Hermione's friend, both leaders too, he's quite happy to follow them in a life of fun and adventures. Everybody can't be a leader at the same time. Ron's leadership abilities (courage, initiative, strategy, and so on) are latent, but they are most definitely present in him. vmonte responds: I agree with you Del. I've said this before -- Ron's strategist skills will be put to use in the next 2 books when the 2nd war gets underway. I also think that the brain attack will change Ron. Someone posted the other day that we will never hear about the brain attack again, and that Ron was fine. ??? Sorry, I really disagree here. Why put this bit in if your not going to mention it again? Why not have Ron get hurt some other way then. At the end of OOTP we find out that according to Madam Pomfrey, "thoughts could leave deeper scarring than almost anything else, though since she had started Dr. Ubbly's Oblivious Unction, there seemed to be some improvement." Is Madam Pomfrey also treating/removing memories? OBLIVIOUS unction? vmonte From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 23:06:54 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:06:54 -0000 Subject: Ron as prefect? In-Reply-To: <102.49bf715b.2e245113@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105876 Neil wrote : > Yes, and Ron's leadership qualities stayed latent the entire year. He > was a do nothing prefect. Did nothing on his own and didn't help > Hermione when she called for his assistance. Del replies : Not true at all. The *only* times when we see Ron refusing to back up Hermione is when she's going after the Twins. Other than that, we never hear Hermione complaining that Ron is not doing his job as a Prefect, which to me is an indication that he must be doing it. But Harry can't tell us that, because Harry doesn't follow Ron around to see what he's doing as a Prefect. In fact, if we assume that the fact that we never see Ron acting as a Prefect is an indication that he never did anything, then we also have to conclude that Hermione only ever did 2 things as a Prefect : guide the first-years at the beginning of the year, and block the Twins in their testing. Oh, and hang up the Christmas decorations, along with Ron. Del From drednort at alphalink.com.au Mon Jul 12 23:05:18 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:05:18 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry in the Contex In-Reply-To: References: <40F1A1B0.25588.2991A76@localhost> Message-ID: <40F3A5CE.7953.267C4B@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 105877 On 12 Jul 2004 at 21:03, Ali wrote: > Shaun, this was a fantastic post and I hope that it will clarify for > some, what you and I are perhaps fortunate enough to take for > granted. I do disagree with you on a number of issues that you use > as specific pointers for Hogwarts being similar to a typical English > Public School, although not on the general picture. Thanks for responding. I broke my ankle 15 minutes ago, and I'm sitting here posting. Could this mean I am addicted? (-8 > The fact is many British schools have houses, uniforms and prefects. > None of those facts alone or collectively would make me feel that > Hogwarts is like a public school. I think it would be correct to say > that many English schools have borrowed their traditions from the > longer established public schools, but that is regardless of their > place in the public or state sector. These traditions have been > borrowed from the Public School System simply because they were the > only really established pattern from which to build on. True enough - but the major difference that makes me think 'public school' relates to the *age* of Hogwarts - the 'historical context' which I addressed first. I'm probably going to be revising the essay a bit - a couple of people have raised some points off list that I wish I'd thought to address, so I may try make the historical context impact clearer. > Had Harry gone to his local comprehensive, we know that he would > have had to have worn a grey uniform. For me, it is not a stretch to > imagine that he would have been in a house or told off by prefects. > > I do agree that there *is* something very public-school like about > Hogwarts. I suspect for me it has something to do with the way that > Hogwarts is steeped in traditions and rules but primarily because it > is a boarding school. The intensity of the inter-house rivalry is > perhaps more akin to public schools than state, but my 6 year old > still accrues house points each week, and the winning house gets a > treat at the end of each term. Her school is most definitely state, > and always has been. Yes, many other schools have adopted public school practices, and yes, often the reason was because they were an established pattern. And if Hogwarts was only 100 years old, I wouldn't be at all surprised if it had done so. But Hogwarts is over 1000 years old, and *very* close to the model of a 19th Century public school, IMHO. If the reason it is close to this model is that it copied the practices of a 19th Century public school, we would have to more or less assume that at some stage in the last 200 years, somebody came into Hogwarts and swept away centuries of Wizarding traditions in education to install a Muggle model. That doesn't strike me as particularly likely. Schools - especially very old schools - tend to have changed over time by an evolutionary process. For a school that goes back 1000 years to have wound up so similar to the British public school model, really does suggest it evolved alongside that model. Newer schools adopted the traditions wholesale in such cases, certainly. Consider the following - let's say, spontaneously, the Muggle and Wizarding world combine. Wizards come out openly, everybody knows they exist, and the Muggle world has to start fitting wizarding institutions into their world view. Where would Hogwarts fit into that view? A 1000 year old boarding school with the traditions of educating every prominent member of its society. It'd become a major public school almost by default. See, if we had evidence Hogwarts had copied the Muggle model at some stage, things wouldn't be as clear cut - but because Hogwarts is "steeped in traditions" (I agree with that) it seems to me unlikely that they would have discarded their own evolutionary process to just copy a Muggle one. Incidentally, you might find it interesting to find out when your daughter's school started doing the whole "house points" thing. It could go back quite a while - but here in Australia, it's been noted that House systems, and especially House point systems have seen a major resurgence in the state sector since the Harry Potter books became popular. Moribund systems have been renewed, and new ones have been introduced. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Mon Jul 12 23:14:51 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:14:51 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat doesn't sort /WAS The sorting hat seems to think Harry... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105878 Reading all the posts about how students are sorted, a few things occurred to me suddenly. 1. How does the Sorting Hat balance out the new students into 4 different houses? It seems only fair that there should be at least similar number of students in each house. >>> Del wrote: > Actually *Hermione* is the exception here. She was probably the only > one who read that book. I'm pretty sure none, or very very few, of the other Muggle-born students knew about the different Houses. <<< This got me thinking. How *did* Hermione get her hands on "Hogwarts: The History" before coming to Hogwarts? NOrmal Muggle library won't have that kind of book, right? So I thought she probably bought it from the bookstore (Flourish & Noble, was it?) on Diagon Alley. But then -- HOW did she get into Diagon Alley the first time? Before she had bought her wand? Was she accompanied by a grown-up wizard who helped her through? Does Hogwarts provide this service to all of new Muggle-born HOgwarts student?! >>> Del continues: Anyway, Harry did *not* manage to figure out where he wanted to be. He knew where he did *not* want to be, in Slytherin. He also knew that he hoped to be with Ron, who waas *probably* going to be Sorted in Gryffindor, but that wasn't absolutely certain. What was certain though, by the time Harry got Sorted, was that Hermione had been Sorted in Gryffindor, and Harry did *not* wish to be with Hermione. A big mess, with no definite choice. EH? "Harry did *not* wish to be with Hermione"? Do you mean RON did not wish to be in Hermione's house? Or Harry did *not* wish to be with DRACO? Bren From clr1971 at alltel.net Mon Jul 12 23:15:30 2004 From: clr1971 at alltel.net (Christina in GA) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:15:30 -0400 Subject: Snape / Is Sirius Dead? / References: <1089336711.23440.21504.m18@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <016c01c46866$2014bf40$c800000a@crouton> No: HPFGUIDX 105879 Stephanie: It's hard to believe that he's completely loyal to the >Order, it's hard to believe that he's loyal to the DEs and LV, >he's...well...a riddle wrapped in an enigma! Christina: I agree with you regarding Snape. During the end of GoF in the graveyard I kept expecting Snape to show up. I really did, all the way through. When he didn't show up I didn't know what to think. I thought he was the bad guy in most of the books but I've been proved wrong by JKR time and time again. Snape is a truly fascinating character and I'm not quite sure how to feel about him. To new list members - Is Sirius dead? I believe so, yes. Is his story over? I don't think so. Something is bound to happen to bring closure to his story, possibly using the mirror he gave to Harry, but no one knows for sure. I, for one, really hope that I am wrong, he is not dead, and the people working in the "death room" in the DOM will find a way to bring him back. Christina in GA Visit my Ebay Store! http://stores.ebay.com/pineywoodsbooks?refid=store From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Mon Jul 12 23:27:58 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:27:58 -0000 Subject: Ron as prefect? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105880 "vmonte" wrote: I've said this before -- Ron's strategist skills will be put to use in the next 2 books when the 2nd war gets underway. ------- I've heard this before and the thing is, as I mentioned in an earlier post that went unanswered, where do we see Ron ever applying any strategic skills outside of a chessboard? The Fight at the DoM is a prime example of a situation where someone with exceptional strategy skills would be very handy and in their element. But who was it planning a way for the six kids to take on and elude a dozen Death Eaters? It was Harry. Ron didn't stand out in the least at the Ministry except for acting all loopy and then summoning the brain later on. This was a perfect time for the emergence of strategist!Ron and instread of Ron shinning in any exceptional way, he is actually portrayed as being quite the dope. (Yes, I know he was under some spell, but still, there the image sits--ingrained in my mind: "ACCIO BRAIN!!!" *head desk*) I guess I'm just pretty much questioning if we'll ever see stragist!Ron. I know it's one of the few things he seems to have that Harry and Hermione don't (beating them at chess) and that Ron fans want to see him excel, but, well, um, I think it's been five years now and unless there's another chess game of doom in store for them, I don't see Ron applying his chess skills to anything other than chess peices--big or small. Arya (Who's belief is that Ron will likely die.) From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 23:31:32 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:31:32 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105881 GEO wrote : > Harry is the main character. Even if he's done with Voldemort, > there'll still be the remnants of his followers,other Dark Lords > that'll probably want to knock Harry off in order to cement their > status and finally the fact that he's just darn good at fighting the > dark arts and has a thing for protecting people as Hermione said. Del replies : Harry is the main character until book 7. There won't be any more books after that, and so no more hero. And if the Good Side is stupid enough to leave vengeful powerful DEs free, who could turn into new Dark Lords in just a few years, then they really deserve to have yet another war on their hands, but I don't think Harry should feel forced to join in that one. GEO wrote : > The heroes might quit for awhile, but they'll always be back to do > their incredilby cliche job. Look at Dumbledore as an example. > Fellow is still fighting the dark arts while being a headmaster. Del replies : But Harry isn't the only hero here. Ron is one too. And yet you say he will retire. Not logical. I, Del, wrote : > > False. Harry has NO chance of ever being reunited with his parents > > in this world. Ron DOES have a chance, however small, to become > > Head Boy and Quidditch captain. GEO answered : > Thats exactly my point. Seeing how Harry's desires aren't even > going to be fulfilled I very much doubt Ron's are going to be > fulfilled either. Del replies : I don't follow you. Harry's desires are never going to be fulfilled because they *can't* be fulfilled. Ron's desires, on the other hand, *can* be fulfilled, so why shouldn't they be ?? GEO wrote : > Actually it's explained that Ron wanted to stand out from his > other siblings. None of them managed to become both a head boy and a > quidditch captain. Del replies : Yes, exactly, Ron wants to *stand out*. He does NOT want to be ordinary. Del From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 23:37:53 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:37:53 -0000 Subject: Could Mrs. Lovegood be....Florence? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105882 Jen speculated: Maybe Luna's real father is Lupin, and Mr. Lovegood is Luna's step- father. Say Florence Lovegood left Lupin during the First War because she suspected he was a spy, then quickly discovered she was pregnant. Not wanting Luna to find out her father was a traitorous spy, she took Lovegood's name for both of them after re-marrying. But Remus was her first love and spy or no, she named her daughter Luna after him. By the time she discovers Remus isn't a spy, he's long gone & teaching in another country and she's married to Mr. Lovegood. Neri: Peeves once called Lupin "looney". However, it would hardly be a loving gesture by Mrs. Lovegood to name her daughter after her father's boggart. BTW, there's another explanation for the name Luna. Luna's character may be JKR's homage to Maria Merryweather, the heroine of Elisabeth Goudge's "The Little White Horse". JKR told us many times that this was her favorite book as a girl (it also appears on the bookshelf in her website, together with Austen's, Sayers' and Doyle's). The similarities between the two characters are quite obvious: Maria is described as a dainty girl with a penetrating stare. She's an orphan who has a special connection with the deceased, she doesn't discriminate between imagination and realty, and she's a natural horsewoman. Maria also has a special connection with moonlight, which explains Luna's strange name. And of course the name Luna enables JKR to use the Looney joke with her. Jen: Another thought is Florence Lovegood worked with Lily at the DOM and was involved in researching the protection for Harry at Godric's Hollow. Later, experiments on the power of loving sacrifice ended in her death. Neri: I like this idea even without the Florence connection. The "Love" in the Lovegood is suggestive of the power-behind-the-locked-door. Interestingly it is Luna in the DoD who tries to tell us what could be in the locked room. Neri From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Mon Jul 12 23:39:32 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:39:32 -0000 Subject: Ron as prefect? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105883 "Arya" wrote: ....I don't see Ron applying his chess skills to anything other than chess peices--big or small. Arya (Who's belief is that Ron will likely die.) ------------------- Adding on to my own post: I lied--I *do* see Ron do a chess reinactment in the future: in acting as the sacraficial knight just like he did in PS but this time, just before he sacrifices himself for real for Harry and dies. I see it coming in once and in a big way but with mostly a final blaze of glory type way. Arya From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 23:40:31 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:40:31 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat doesn't sort /WAS The sorting hat seems to think Harry... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105884 I, Del, wrote : > > What was certain though, by the time Harry got Sorted, was that > > Hermione had been Sorted in Gryffindor, and Harry did *not* wish to > > be with Hermione. A big mess, with no definite choice. Bren answered : > EH? "Harry did *not* wish to be with Hermione"? Do you mean RON did > not wish to be in Hermione's house? Or Harry did *not* wish to be > with DRACO? Del replies : I know it's Ron who said he hoped not to be in the same House as Hermione, but it's quite clear that Harry didn't appreciate Hermione anymore than Ron did, when he met her. I doubt he would have gladly asked to be in the same House she had already been Sorted in. Del From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Mon Jul 12 23:34:06 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:34:06 -0000 Subject: Ron as prefect? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105885 Neil wrote : Yes, and Ron's leadership qualities stayed latent the entire year. He was a do nothing prefect. Did nothing on his own and didn't help Hermione when she called for his assistance. > Del replies : Not true at all. The *only* times when we see Ron refusing to back up Hermione is when she's going after the Twins. Other than that, we never hear Hermione complaining that Ron is not doing his job as a Prefect, which to me is an indication that he must be doing it. But Harry can't tell us that, because Harry doesn't follow Ron around to see what he's doing as a Prefect. ------------ Well, I might ageree with you, Del, if it weren't for JKR telling us herself that Ron wasn't the best prefect and didn't even know by the end of the year that prefects could dock points. (Referencing her website's FAQ page.) I just don't see Ron having taken his responsibilities very seriously--and you'd think for someone with such ambitions as to be Head Boy one day, he might want to work a bit for it. Taking points seems to be a pretty basic principle in the duty of a prefect to enforce rules but, erm, Ron never even *knew* he could or should do this. That doesn't make him look too stellar with any spin you might put on it. Arya From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 23:44:28 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:44:28 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry in the Contex In-Reply-To: <40F3A5CE.7953.267C4B@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105886 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" wrote: > > ...EDITED... > > A 1000 year old boarding school with the traditions of educating > every prominent member of its society. > > It'd become a major public school almost by default. > > See, if we had evidence Hogwarts had copied the Muggle model at > some stage, things wouldn't be as clear cut - but because Hogwarts > is "steeped in traditions" (I agree with that) it seems to me > unlikely that they would have discarded their own evolutionary > process to just copy a Muggle one. > > ...EDITED... > > Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought > Shaun Hately Asian_lovr2: As always very interesting. As I read your post, especially your emphasis on the long history of Hogwarts, it seemed reasonable for us to speculate on the natural and likely progression of Hogwarts from a practical stand point. -Houses- The ancient fictional tradition of wizards and socerers has been to take on one or more apprentices. These tales usually being with a downtrodden young soul deep in the woods who meets a mysterious stranger. Later that stranger appears at the boy's (usually a boy) house, and offers his parent an extremely substantial sum of money if they will allow the boy to travel with him, and be his apprentice. Although, the exact trade to which he is being apprenticed is never clearly stated. The 'stranger' assures the parent that the boy will be well treated, well fed, and highly educated. The parents, usually dirt poor, agree for both the money and for the great opportunity which they themselves could never give the kid. Long winded, but the point is, that it's standard fair for wizards to select students and train them. Hogwarts founders thought of a better way. Instead of wandering about the country side and stumbling across likely candidates, they would start a school where young wizard could come from far and wide to be trained. But Hogwarts is founded by four individual wizards who most likely look for different traits in their apprentices, and trained them in a different way. So in a sense, the beginning of Hogwarts was the combining of four separate apprentice-type schools of wizardry. Since we have 4 approaches to selecting and training, in a sense 4 schools, it makes sense that under the banner of the one school, these sub-schools would become Houses. Point- the creation of houses was a natural and logical progression. The next logical progression would be for the founders to see the efficiency of training the students as a large united group, rather than Slytherin teaching Slytherin, and Gryffindor teaching Gryffindor. The natural progression here would be, instead of one teacher teaches all, one teacher would teach Transfigurations and another would teach Charms, etc... Now the school grows, and the number of students becomes significant. It's one thing to keep track of a dozen personal apprentices, but quite another to keep track of and manage hundreds of students. So the founders needed some assistance, so senior trusted students were made Prefects. ...need to maintain discipline - house points, detention, etc... ...need to keep the student occupied and happy - quidditch, and school clubs ...need to reduce conflict and stimulate unity and loyalty - various house competitions, uniforms, etc... My overal point is that Boarding Schools evolved into the form that they did out of necessity and logical evolution. It's a reasonable and effective way to run a boarding school. >From a practial perspective certain things need to be done, and they devised reasonable, logical, and somewhat universal ways of doing them. Just a thought. Steve/asian_lovr2 From drednort at alphalink.com.au Tue Jul 13 00:16:07 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:16:07 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry in the Contex In-Reply-To: References: <40F3A5CE.7953.267C4B@localhost> Message-ID: <40F3B667.10387.6756D1@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 105887 On 12 Jul 2004 at 23:44, Steve wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" > wrote: > > > > ...EDITED... > > > > A 1000 year old boarding school with the traditions of educating > > every prominent member of its society. > > > > It'd become a major public school almost by default. > > > > See, if we had evidence Hogwarts had copied the Muggle model at > > some stage, things wouldn't be as clear cut - but because Hogwarts > > is "steeped in traditions" (I agree with that) it seems to me > > unlikely that they would have discarded their own evolutionary > > process to just copy a Muggle one. > > > > ...EDITED... > > > > Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought > > Shaun Hately > > > Asian_lovr2: > > As always very interesting. As I read your post, especially your > emphasis on the long history of Hogwarts, it seemed reasonable for us > to speculate on the natural and likely progression of Hogwarts from a > practical stand point. It certainly does. > Hogwarts founders thought of a better way. Instead of wandering about > the country side and stumbling across likely candidates, they would > start a school where young wizard could come from far and wide to be > trained. Yes, and I suspect, given the dates, that part of this decision may have been because of the success of the first Muggle schools in Britain. 1000 years ago - the tenth century - were a time when schools were just starting to become *reasonably* common in Britain - the earliest schools as we'd understand the term really started in the 7th century, and it took a while for them to 'catch on'. So the founders of Hogwarts would have been able to see this development. > My overal point is that Boarding Schools evolved into the form that > they did out of necessity and logical evolution. It's a reasonable and > effective way to run a boarding school. Generally true - while there was a lot of necessity and quite a lot of logic involved, historically some things seem to have been more or less random. > >From a practial perspective certain things need to be done, and they > devised reasonable, logical, and somewhat universal ways of doing them. Yes - but because they are so similar - even down to the specific terminology - I do think it's a common evolution rather than a parallel evolution - which might still have produced something similar. One example - the term 'prefect'. Many schools historically selected such students, but there were a lot of different terms used to describe them (and a few schools still use these different terms). Over time, though, "prefect" became dominant because of the common evolution - even where the ideas evolved separately, so that we had... monitors, praefects, prefects, praepostors, superiors, senators, silentiaries, over time, they all tended to merge together into very similar insitutions with very similar names at most of the schools (not quite all). I'm also thinking it might be worth looking at some of the ways Hogwarts differs from the classic public school model, and why it might do so, given it's a good match in other areas. One thing that immediately leaps to mind is the apparent absence of any fags and fagging... it could have existed at Hogwarts, historically of course, but I suspect the existence of the house elves may well have meant there was no imperative for it. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From BrwNeil at aol.com Tue Jul 13 00:40:17 2004 From: BrwNeil at aol.com (BrwNeil at aol.com) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:40:17 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron as prefect? Message-ID: <19b.26eb3622.2e248971@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105888 In a message dated 7/12/2004 7:39:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu writes: This was a perfect time for the emergence of strategist!Ron and instread of Ron shinning in any exceptional way, he is actually portrayed as being quite the dope. (Yes, I know he was under some spell, but still, there the image sits--ingrained in my mind: "ACCIO BRAIN!!!" *head desk*) I guess I'm just pretty much questioning if we'll ever see stragist!Ron. I know it's one of the few things he seems to have that Harry and Hermione don't (beating them at chess) and that Ron fans want to see him excel, but, well, um, I think it's been five years now and unless there's another chess game of doom in store for them, I don't see Ron applying his chess skills to anything other than chess peices--big or small. Arya (Who's belief is that Ron will likely die.) I like Ron, I really do, but I think many of his fans want to make him out to be more than he actually is. Harry is the brawn, Hermione the brains and I'm sorry, but Ron is the comic relief. Have you ever seen any of the old old westerns. Roy Rodgers, Gene Autry, Hopalong Cassidy, Cisco Kid. These movies all had one thing in common. The hero had a well intentioned sidekick who always came through when needed, but most of the time he was just there to provide laughs. Ron is there for the laughs. Harry is there to fight the villains. And as Rowling has said Harry needs Hermione. I'd miss him and all the laughs, but for the most part Ron has not been an important part to the outcome of any of the books. He has just been there. Neil [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jferer at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 00:46:12 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 00:46:12 -0000 Subject: SHIP Luna Was Re:Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105889 Cory: "I'm not saying that either of R/L or H/Hr is a done deal (although H/Hr is my ship of choice), but rather, I am only suggesting that there is evidence pointing toward Luna ending up with either of the two, and I don't see H/L as being any more likely than R/L." I'm H/Hr as well, and Luna is an unknown. We just don't know much at all. I have to say I find Luna's serene, slightly eccentric spirituality intriguing, and good for Harry, but it's way short of enough for a romance. In a strictly plot analytical way, you could argue it's more likely that Luna is there for Ron, not Harry. After all, JKR didn't need to introduce a new character to be Harry's love interest when she already had Ginny at hand. But I prefer to treat the characters as real, not plot elements. Trying to analyze the plot that way can really lead to error. And we all have to figure out where Viktor fits in. Jim Ferer From McGregorMax at ec.rr.com Tue Jul 13 00:53:03 2004 From: McGregorMax at ec.rr.com (mcmaxslb) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 00:53:03 -0000 Subject: Ron as prefect? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105890 > Del : > Not true at all. The *only* times when we see Ron refusing to back up > Hermione is when she's going after the Twins. Other than that, we > never hear Hermione complaining that Ron is not doing his job as a > Prefect, which to me is an indication that he must be doing it. But > Harry can't tell us that, because Harry doesn't follow Ron around to > see what he's doing as a Prefect. > ------------ > Arya wrote: > Well, I might ageree with you, Del, if it weren't for JKR telling us > herself that Ron wasn't the best prefect and didn't even know by the > end of the year that prefects could dock points. (Referencing her > website's FAQ page.) I just don't see Ron having taken his > responsibilities very seriously--and you'd think for someone with >such ambitions as to be Head Boy one day, he might want to work a >bit for it. Taking points seems to be a pretty basic principle in >the duty of a prefect to enforce rules but, erm, Ron never even >*knew* he could or should do this. That doesn't make him look too >stellar with any spin you might put on it. Ron became a prefect only because Dumbledore didn't want to give it to Harry, not because Dumbledore thought Ron would make a good prefect. And this was one of the mistakes that he admits to at the end of OotP. McMax. From drednort at alphalink.com.au Tue Jul 13 01:06:10 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:06:10 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron as prefect? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40F3C222.17343.952A71@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 105891 On 12 Jul 2004 at 23:34, Arya wrote: > Well, I might ageree with you, Del, if it weren't for JKR telling us > herself that Ron wasn't the best prefect and didn't even know by the > end of the year that prefects could dock points. (Referencing her > website's FAQ page.) I just don't see Ron having taken his > responsibilities very seriously - and you'd think for someone with such > ambitions as to be Head Boy one day, he might want to work a bit for > it. Taking points seems to be a pretty basic principle in the duty of > a prefect to enforce rules but, erm, Ron never even *knew* he could or > should do this. That doesn't make him look too stellar with any spin > you might put on it. OK - JKR, does *not* say Ron isn't the best prefect. From the FAQ. "Can prefects take points or not? A prefect took points from Gryffindor in the Chamber of Secrets, and then there was a reference to prefects not being allowed to dock points. What are the rules? Ron got it wrong in 'Phoenix', from which we deduce that he hasn't been a very authoritarian prefect thus far; he clearly hasn't been taking points from anybody." What she says is that he is not a 'very authoritarian prefect'. That is *very* different from whether or not he's a good or a bad one. When I was a prefect at school, I had disciplinary powers - and I used them a lot. I had to, because for me it was the only way I could impose my authority on some other students. The people I would consider though to have been the *best* prefects I worked with - some of them virtually never had to use their disciplinary powers. They had a knack of being able to get people to do what they were supposed to do without punishing them. They'd do it when they had to - but they had to very seldom. Yes, taking points is a prefect's duty at Hogwarts, and it does worry me slightly than Ron doesn't even seem to know he has the power. But it's possible that he simply hasn't had the need to use it. He may be getting results in other ways. We don't really get to see much of what he does. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 01:39:59 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 01:39:59 -0000 Subject: Ron as prefect? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105892 McMax wrote: Ron became a prefect only because Dumbledore didn't want to give it to Harry, not because Dumbledore thought Ron would make a good prefect. And this was one of the mistakes that he admits to at the end of OotP. vmonte responds: DD does not admit that not making Harry prefect was a mistake. He says that Harry had enough responsibility to be going on with. This doesn't mean that he believed Ron to be a bad choice--Ron was another choice. I still think that Ron is being built up for a larger role. Someone pointed out the other day that Hermione's character has shown enormous emotional growth and I agree. I believe that Harry and Ron will/are also emotionally growing. I love Ron's character because he seems the unassuming everyman/child. I think JKR is setting him up to surprise us. I've recently read over books 1-3 and was surprised to hear the many times that Ron has given Harry good advice. It seems clear to me why Hermione and Harry care for Ron. He is incredibly brave. One thing that annoy's me about the movies is that Ron's lines are always given away to Hermione and Hagrid. JKR foreshadowed HRH's skills in SS/PP for a specific reason. DD's choice in making Ron prefect will turn out to be the right choice. vivian From McGregorMax at ec.rr.com Tue Jul 13 01:55:56 2004 From: McGregorMax at ec.rr.com (mcmaxslb) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 01:55:56 -0000 Subject: Ron as prefect? In-Reply-To: <19b.26eb3622.2e248971@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105894 ---Neil wrote: I like Ron, I really do, but I think many of his fans want to make him out to be more than he actually is. Harry is the brawn, Hermione the brains and I'm sorry, but Ron is the comic relief.Have you ever seen any of the old old westerns. Roy Rodgers, Gene Autry, Hopalong Cassidy, Cisco Kid. These movies all had one thing in common. The hero had a well intentioned sidekick who always came through when needed, but most of the time he was just there to provide laughs. Ron is there for the laughs. Harry is there to fight the villains. And as Rowling has said Harry needs Hermione. I'd miss him and all the laughs, but for the most part Ron has not been an important part to the outcome of any of the books. He has just been there. Yeah I love Ron too and in the books he does fill this role and he is hilarious in OtoP and that is needed and it will be needed in HBP and Book7 as the books are getting an increasing edge and you need comedy to balance that. If you poke around enough HP MBs and websites you find that they're fans that think the books should be 'Ronald Weasley and...' or 'Hermione Granger and...' or Draco Malfoy and...' or even 'Serverus Snape and...' . But there not. They are called 'Harry Potter and...' From Batchevra at aol.com Tue Jul 13 01:59:49 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:59:49 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: James the Berk? Message-ID: <90.48ab591d.2e249c15@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105895 In a message dated 7/12/04 4:59:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, foxmoth at qnet.com writes: >Naturally the staff wouldn't listen to Snape if he told them he thought that Lupin's monthly disappearances were suspicious. He'd have been told to mind his own business, much as Harry was in PS/SS. But if Snape had made the connection between close calls in Hogsmeade and Lupin's absences and didn't have proof, he could feel he needed to do something about it, couldn't he?. Pippin< I agree that we don't know what Snape's motives were, but I don't think he knew that Lupin was a werewolf until he saw Lupin as a werewolf. I think if he had known for certain and certainly after the DADA OWL, Snape would not have gone through the Whomping Willow. Well until we get the whole story behind the Prank, I take it as it has been presented. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 02:02:02 2004 From: sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com (sevenhundredandthirteen) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 02:02:02 -0000 Subject: Breaking Points & Choices (was: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105896 I (Laurasia) originally wrote: >>> For instance, it would matter little whether Ron and Hermione >>>were there with Harry, so long as he made it through the >>>obstacles. Their presence there makes little difference to >>>Harry.< Pippin responded: >You don't think it makes a difference to Harry that Ron was >willing to die for him? Or that he discovers that, despite >appearances, courage and friendship are more important to >Hermione than books and cleverness? Harry may not act any >differently in the short run, but this is a seven book series. I (Laurasia) reply: Actually, I agree totally with you. I think the fact that Ron was willing to die for Harry *should* make a considerable difference to Harry. The only problem is, it hasn't. What you said hit the nail right on the head: "Harry may not act any differently in the short run, but this is a seven book series." Whatever change Ron's willing sacrifice made, we haven't seen it yet (which, IMO, makes it useless). Harry's fundamental character qualities don't shift from book to book which makes any antagonistic forces he encounters redundant. He faces Voldemort, then goes back to school like normal, he faces Riddle, and once again has no new lease of life. He sees Cedric die and it definitely affects him, but never stops him being brave, the one defining feature of Harry which is apparently innate. He hasn't learnt ot chosen to be brave, it is just something he is. I really hope Sirius's death will finally cause Harry to lose courage. I think Harry needs to stop being brave at some crucial moment and actually want to turn around and let Voldemort take over. Pippin also wrote: >And what about the fact that Harry has to *choose* go on alone? >He knew he would be no match for Snape and he could have >gone back with Hermione to get help. Similarly, he could have >tried to help Ron open the blocked passage in CoS rather than >go on alone to the Chamber. I reply: Sure, but Harry had already made up his mind. In the potions chamber we never see him ponder the option of going back with Hermione do we? It never even crosses him mind. Never even a fleeting instance of whether he could turn away now. We as the readers see the possibility of turning around, but Harry never did. Harry never stopped to think `Will I stay or will I go?' In CoS it's the same. We as the readers see the possibility that he could have stayed with Ron and shifted rocks to save himself, but Harry never did. As far as Harry is concerned, there is only one way, and that is forward. So, these choices don't actually exist in Harry's mind. Therefore they _aren't_ choices. We never see Harry with a split desire- `do I save my own life, or do I continue?' He's never been scared for his own life. He steps towards death in GoF and he wants to leave this world for Sirius in OotP. So, whilst I very much agree with what you've said- that a less brave person may have stopped and shifted rocks as soon as the passage collapsed in CoS, Harry never saw it as a possibility, so he didn't continue on *despite* his fears, because he never appears to have any. He always thinks that everything he does is the last straw (because all other hope has faded- he does try to contact all available members of the OotP before heading off to the Ministry, after all), the very last hope that anyone has, and *there* *is* *no* *other* *choice.* I originally wrote: >>>What is Hermione's breaking point? She's never been tested, >>>so we don't know. < Pippin responded: >We know when she decided to break rules for Harry--that was a >test. There are many others. She's not the main character, so >her tests aren't going to be as dramatic as Harry's, and they're >not going to come when they would undercut his. I reply: With Hermione I was referring more to her `loyalty to Harry' in opposition to `doing what she has proof is right' (not her `loyalty to school rules' in opposition to `doing what is right`). We know what it takes for Hermione to break school rules, she does it quite frequently for someone who allegedly loves them. It's cut and dry for her- Hermione will always do what she thinks it right so long as there is verification backing her up (I wrote about this in my previous post). But we've never seen her `loyalty and trust in Harry's judgement as the only source of fact' and her` loyalty to facts' come head to head yet. We saw a hint of it in OotP when she ensured that Harry check before racing off to London, but what does it take for Hermione to flat out refuse to fight with Harry? That is her breaking point. When she will refuse to fight alongside because she will not trust his judgement without hard proof. If Harry is the central character to the series, then any supporting character's breaking point must be with their own beliefs clashing with Harry's. I also wrote: >>>What does it take to scare Ron? >>> What does it take to make Ron lose his faith in Harry? Pippin responded: >We know that. It happened in GoF, when Ron thought Harry had >entered the TWT without him. Again, Ron's tests aren't as >dramatic as Harry's and they are timed so that they don't distract >our attention from what Harry is doing. BUT as soon as Harry's life is in real danger (the first task) Ron comes running back ready to apologise to Harry! If, on the other hand, Ron saw how much danger Harry was in but *refused* to help him because of the jealousy, then that would be his breaking point. His breaking point is when he refuses to let his own beliefs be compromised out of loyalty to Harry. Whether it is jealousy, or even fear. As soon as Ron's jealousy and Harry's safety clash, Ron *immediately* reneges on his jealousy. This PROVES that any jealousy will not get in the way of his loyalty to Harry. Ron doesn't even have to think about it. He comes running in after Harry without a trace of the jealousy left. So, I still hold my beliefs that Ron and Hermione's characters have never been tested. They certainly have been set up and we have seen hint of what might come, but both have yet to lose their faith in Harry. ~<(Laurasia)>~ From sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 02:07:59 2004 From: sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com (sevenhundredandthirteen) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 02:07:59 -0000 Subject: Distinct Novel vs Separate Parts & Tolkein (was: flaws in the books) In-Reply-To: <000201c4681a$4c8305b0$6400a8c0@Desktop> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105897 Katie wrote: >Your post was fascinating; I just wanted to make one minor >correction. Frodo is not dead to the reader at the end of The Two >Towers; he is quite alive, but captured in the Tower. (You can make >a comparable point with Gandalf, though!) I (Laurasia) reply: Maybe I should have said he `appears dead' or at the very least, as if he was in real danger of dying. As soon as Sam took the ring, it became a real possibility that Frodo was now a redundant ring bearer. Because the story of the ring was told by a series of bearers of the ring rather than one single protagonist as soon as the ring is passed between Frodo and Sam, there is the possibility that the hobbit we've been following all this time is just one leg of the journey- like Bilbo. My point was that Harry Potter isn't told by legs of journeys from different points of view. Trevor wrote: >I would also point out that Harry Potter is written as 7 distinct novels in >one series where as LOTR was written as one book- the editors broke it into >3 parts for marketing concerns. The HP series therefore consists of much >more distinct novels rather than one continuous book. I reply: I think that whether series or one novel makes little difference in this instance. Take the series about a group of people where each book is told by a different member (Lots of kids books do this,- when I was 8 I was a big fan of `The Babysitter's Club`). Each book is definitely a separate entity, but because there is a revolving series of protagonists, there is never any guarantee that one won't move away, another one might join in their place (Like the TV series `Charmed' where it was very easy to replace sisters, because each episode didn't focus on a single main protagonist). This is because there is a series of protagonists who have equal footing. Even though Harry Potter is definitely seven distinct novels there's never been a chapter where Ron went off to do something for the plot without Harry. Harry is a lone protagonist and no-one is his equal so it would be hard, or unsatisfying at the very best, for JKR to switch mid-series. I think this aspect of the story dictates that Harry can't die midway through, rather than the separation of each part of the story into distinct books. ~<(Laurasia)>~ From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Jul 13 02:10:40 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 02:10:40 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius lure Severus into the Willow? (was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105898 Kneasy: > Snape never mentions a 'life debt', might never even consider it > applicable, since it was one of James's friends that put him in danger > of his life anyway. The way he behaves in Shrieking Shack II, the estatic > Gotcha! reaction; the revenge he can almost taste - "Two more for > Azkaban" - is almost obscene. He's been waiting for this for a long, > long time. > > I see Sevvy as a vengeful type - he'd want his pound of flesh, to see > his enemies humiliated. Somehow DD put the blocks on it. > I'd love to know how and I'd love to know why Snape still trusts him. Jen: Snape didn't get his coveted pound of flesh because he had reasons for keeping silent. It's clear in POA that Snape is willing to skirt around Dumbledore's wishes when he wants to; nothing Dumbledore said or did would keep Snape from talking about the Prank if he wanted to. No, he's not talking because he's either hiding something or protecting someone. Which it is, I haven't a clue. JKR is undoubtedly saving some interesting & reprehensible Snape behavior for the last two books. She's raked the Marauders over the coals, bought a few knuts of sympathy for old Severus, and will now proceed to tear him apart. That should make the FEATHER BOAS happy, something to look forward to ;). Jen From sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 02:12:06 2004 From: sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com (sevenhundredandthirteen) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 02:12:06 -0000 Subject: Deus Ex Machina/Plot Devices (was: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws...) In-Reply-To: <96773c88040712130629e571fa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105899 James wrote: >On a somewhat unrelated note, the only thing that's ever *really* >bothered me in Harry Potter as a "plot device" was the Ford Anglia in >the Forest in CoS, aka the Deus Ex Machina Car. Gawp is admittedly >similar, but Gawp makes more logical sense (Gawp is in the forest, but >could easily break his bonds, Gawp knows Hagrid and remembers "Hermy", >etc). I (Laurasia) reply: That's interesting, because I was far more bothered with Grawp as Deus Ex Machina than I was as Flying Ford Anglia as Deus Ex Machina. In fact, I was tearing out my hair when Grawp came back, because it was *so* obvious to me. The Ford Anglia, however, I thought was much better handled. While I agree with the movie treatment of the Ford Anglia escape (that is, not showing the car living wild in the forest 5 minutes before hand, just having it charge on in), I still think the car makes better sense because, the car's actions are, arguably, premeditated. From the treatment of the car, I get the impression that it didn't just coincidentally stumble across a certain part of the forest, but was actively trying to save Ron and Harry. Grawp, on the other hand just turned up by chance. And all he did was make a distraction, rather than a choice. This is the reason why I was unsatisfied with Grawp- his presence was enough to cause the centaurs to attack, and that was just chance. Whereas the Ford Anglia had to appear, and then get them out, which it appeared to do by an active choice. I originally wrote: >>> Dumbledore _doesn't_ recognise Imposter!Moody until the end >>> of the year even though he's allegedly an old friend. James responded: >That's a valid point, but it makes enough sense to me. I reply: I agree. All the `inconsistencies' I brought up had very easy explanations, like the many you posted. That was the very purpose of my post- to prove that whilst there are `inconsistencies' they can be explained away without batting an eye-lid because they all relied on inaction, rather than action. ~<(Laurasia)>~ From Batchevra at aol.com Tue Jul 13 02:16:57 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:16:57 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: James the Berk? Message-ID: <1eb.24ea3608.2e24a019@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105900 In a message dated 7/12/04 1:44:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com writes: >Expelled? For being out out of bounds and out of bed? In that case why is Harry still at Hogwarts? He's been caught for that crime too.< Yes, expelled. In PS/SS in the book Harry and co, would have been expelled if he had been caught by Filch, Harry was caught by Dumbledore, but he is protecting Harry from any behavior that would get him expelled like when he blows up his Aunt in POA. >No, it's a detention offence, nothing more. Besides, when Lupin recounts the story it's "one evening..." There's no convincing evidence that Snape broke *any* rules, just eager to get some dirt on the boys. Of course Lupin hadn't broken any rules either, but that wouldn't have saved him, not when the parents of other students heard that there was a werewolf at Hogwarts. James might have stayed, based on his 'rescue' but Sirius? Knowingly sending an innocent student into a werewolf's lair? He'd be out on his ear with DD close behind, probably. But you're missing the point - how did DD manage to shut Snape up? Threats wouldn't do it. Snape's cards are stronger than his. So what happened? Kneasy< I think Dumbledore did have a stronger case in that Snape was out of bounds of the school, the teachers knew what was going on, and probably did know that Sirius, James and Peter knew about Lupin being a werewolf and encouraged the friendship, but didn't know about them being animagi. I mean the portraits and the ghosts must have overheard their conversations and kept Dumbledore informed but since the Shrieking shack was off campus, didn't know the whole story. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 02:31:22 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 02:31:22 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105901 > > Pippin wrote: huge snip. > But it's taking Lupin into Hogsmeade > that is truly reprehensible. I have yet to hear any credible excuse > for that. > snip. Alla: Not me. I don't find their actions reprehensible at all. Stupid? Dangerous? I guess. But not reprehensible at all. To me this is the classic case of noble intentions and poor execution of the said intentions. They were helping a handicapped friend to bear the horror of losing his mind every month and becoming a dangerous beast. That is what real friends do. Come to think of it, I am not even sure that I would prefer them not to have done it. They should not have go to Hogsmeade, absolutely. I would want them to go to some empty areas, to the forest, I don't know. They were being good friends to Lupin and I admire that. From drliss at comcast.net Mon Jul 12 18:37:02 2004 From: drliss at comcast.net (drliss at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:37:02 +0000 Subject: PoA Question (foreshadowing books 6 & 7) Message-ID: <071220041837.10133.40F2DA4D000A8C430000279522007354469C9C07049D0B@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 105902 Casey: "Interesting theories! The thing I found most bizarrely non-textual in the POA movie was the huge proliferation of menhirs (the oblong stones standing/balanced straight up - I think that's the term) in Harry's woods-walk sceen with Lupin. The bridge was also a rather romantic back-drop for a male to male scene as well, discussion of Lilly notwithstanding (- and is a romantic back drop really appropriate to that context Harry's mother either?)" I hadn't noticed the non-textual references, but that's interesting. I'm still meaning to go see the movie again (hopefully I can get past Lupin's cheesy mustache this time!), so I'll keep an eye out for it! I also do remember thinking the bridge a bit strange, but I was so distracted by Lupin going on and on about Lily (which annoyed me, partly because of the Lupin/Sirius theory, but mainly because one of Lupin's main functions in PoA is to be the first strong link Harry has to his father, and the relationship between James and Lupin is utterly neglected) that I didn't pay attention to the bridge. Casey: "Perhaps, however Cuaron is not really being so non-textual after- all, given the "old married couple" reference you provide. I'd assumed JKR's focus on Harry's various father figures beginning (esp.) in book three had to do with lending some verisimilitude to her portrayal of male adolescent angst, as well as furthering her identity theme. I think some amount of homoeroticism is inherent in that process, but maybe she really is going somewhat further with it? Adding to it the overall theme of "normality" as an anti-value lends a really interesting perspective. Thanks." On the one hand, consider some of Cuaron's other movies: homosexuality and homoeroticism are not topics this man will shy away from. (I get a kick out of picturing the arguments that may have occurred between Steve Kloves, who seemed quite convinced that Lupin loved Lily, and Cuaron, whom I'm imagining (for no concrete reason) supported the Sirius/Lupin theory.) Although JKR doesn't really focus on it, I've noticed something interesting about her: she's very inclusive of different cultures in her books. I don't think she does it to be PC or make a point- I think she does it because it's the way society actually is. A lot of different races are represented at Hogwarts: Cho is Asian, Pavrati and Padma are Indian, Dean is black, etc. She doesn't really go out of her way to point this out, but she does represent more than just Harry's walk of life. She's also played with different economic status (statuses? stati?), the impact of disabilities (Neville's parents), different family structures (single parent families, extended families, other non-traditional families), etc., so it wouldn't shock me if she made one (or two) of her characters homosexual. (I mean, heck, Aberforth "practiced inappropriate charms on a goat"... lol) Although the Harry Potter books have been marketed at children, the books were not written for children. So... why not? Especially since Sirius, well, he's dead. Lupin and Sirius wouldn't be present as an active, obvious couple, and the focus would be on the emotional side of their relationship at this point, rather than the sexual. But I can see where Harry would be terribly upset, at least at first. (And regardless of the relationship between Sirius and Lupin, I definitely think Harry hasn't given much thought to Lupin's feelings about the matter, and I could really see them rubbing each other the wrong way eventually.) I think the foundation is there, if she choses to go that way. She's laid enough ambiguous hints that it wouldn't be a total shocker, but said hints HAVE been abiguous enough that it wouldn't be a shocker if I'm wrong about them, either. I wouldn't put either one past her! Lissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Mon Jul 12 20:02:17 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:02:17 -0000 Subject: The 'Power' of Hermione's wand-movie foreshadow? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105903 > Aggie: > > So it is possible that just one person's 'expelliarmus' could >knock someone flying. It's curious though, that when the children >used it they just disarmed their opponent. Maybe the power of this >spell does grow with age, or maybe because Snape was so angry (as >was Harry in the Shrieking Shack) it enhanced the spell. >Leb: > I didn't follow the earlier thread so I hope I'm not just repeating > what someone else said. I think the anger you mentioned is the key > here just like the unforgivable curses. Snape obviously wanted to > tear Lockhart to pieces so when he did the charm it literally blew > him away. Same with the trio (in the book) and just Harry (in the > movie). The hatred of Snape really feuled it and put some serious > oomph behind it! > Aggie: Just to reiterate this point (not sure why, just in a rambling kinda mood I guess!!) In 'The Chamber of Secrets' chapter 16 CoS Harry uses the expeliarmus spell on Lockhart and this, too, sends him flying! Perhaps it's just a Lockhart thing. . .!! Leb: > Harry was mad at Bellatrix when he did his feeble "crucio" but in > this situation he had the fury of being interrupted by the person >he hates most in the world (I'm assuming Dudley runs a close second >but Snape is first) when he was confronting who he thought was his > parents' murderer. That some serious rage to put into a spell! > > So, I don't think it was Hermione's wand that added the power I think > it was pure unbridled emotion. Aggie: me too! ;-) From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Mon Jul 12 20:13:44 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:13:44 -0000 Subject: Re PoA Question (foreshadowing books 6 & 7) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105904 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rebekia_krum" wrote: > Casey wrote: > > > > Interesting theories! The thing I found most bizarrely non-textual > > in the POA movie was the huge proliferation of menhirs (the oblong > > stones standing/balanced straight up - I think that's the term) in > > Harry's woods-walk sceen with Lupin. > Rebekia: > I recently went to Scotland and up to the Orkney Islands. I was > amazed at how many standing stones and early "settlements" > like Skara Brae they have up there. I thought it was a lovely way > to include the scenery or feeling of Scotlands History since > Hogwarts is supposed to be located in the Highlands. I also > think there's a much stronger concentration with Runes in JKR's > OotP and I really feel it's important to the next two stories to > understand some of the history of runes and standing stones.... > Now ask me what the importance is and I'm still working on that. > The rune alphabet contains 13 letters or symbols. Each letter > has a specific meaning that makes it unique. Snape placing a > "spikey D" on Harry's paper for instance could have a connection > to Thurisaz. Aggie: Lucky you! It must have been beautiful!! Excuse my ignorance but what does Thurisaz mean? I really must pay more attention in my History of Runes class!! ;-) From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Mon Jul 12 20:30:22 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:30:22 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat doesn't sort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105905 happybean98: > I covered this in my other post, but the short answer is this. If > Harry, who knew absolutely nothing about the WW, let alone Hogwarts > until a few days before he was sorted, decided where he wanted to >be, why couldn't anyone else? Thanks to the Dursleys, he was the >most ignorant of anyone, even Muggle borns, and he still quickly >chose Ron over Draco as a friend, even though he met Draco first. Aggie: Hi! I agree with you to certain extent but Harry had help with his decision that Hermione, Dean etc wouldn't have had. Harry had Hagrid. He may have only heard about Hogwarts and the WW a couple of days previously but Hagrid had pretty much filled him in on the details. If Hagrid hadn't appeared at the window of the robe shop, Harry wouldn't have heard Draco's demeaning remarks about him. I realise that Harry had already thought of Draco as a Dudley type boy so he may have made the deduction from that. I'm not disagreeing with the theory that Harry made his choice before setting foot in Hogwarts, I'm merely pointing out that he DID have some help. And I think the hat DOES make the choice not the student but I understand where you're coming from and it's a clever theory. From hallisallimalli at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 20:46:22 2004 From: hallisallimalli at yahoo.com (halli) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:46:22 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat doesn't sort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105906 > Cathy: > > Also, in GoF the Sorting Hat says: "The founders put some brains in > me So I could choose instead!" Not make a decision based on what the > kid thought would be best...Choose. > > happybean98: > Yes that's what the hat says because it's effectiveness depends on > everyone believing in that pretense. If the hat openly admitted what > was happening, the first years would be at risk of being pressured > into houses they didn't really want to be in because they would have > to consider not only what they wanted, but what everyone else would > think about what they wanted. (Would Neville ever have openly > admitted that he wanted a shot at being in Gryffindor? I think not.) > > Cathy: > The Hat needs to be able to sort based on abilites not just student > whims, especially in the case of a student, like Dean Thomas or the > Creevey kids, who would have no idea which would be a good house to > want to be sorted into. Halli: I would like to point out that they do have a way of knowing about the different houses before hand, from the same impartial judge that sorts them. What I imagined (and even did myself) as I read the Sorting Hats first song was everyone thinking "Hmm, I think I'd do well in a house that values that...I don't think I'm much like that...ect." So this is the equivalent of a leaflet about all the houses, and I heard somewhere that desisions you've made quickly relflect what you feel, or your instinct, so what they think so soon after hearing about them all would be less tainted by other peoples opinions, because no one would be there thinking for them, or even helping them decide...so i guess I agree with the people who say the kid really chooses, because isn't that what DD says? So the hat would reflect that, as it does alot of DDs other ideals. From jlawlor at gmail.com Mon Jul 12 20:17:51 2004 From: jlawlor at gmail.com (James Lawlor) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:17:51 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The power of words in the WW (Was: Fear and Valour) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96773c880407121317577b401b@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105907 Carol: > BTW, has anyone noticed the contrast between Dumbldore's practical, > almost real-world approach to words and names (don't use euphemisms; > call it by its name) and Gandalf's and Aragorn's in LOTR, where words > do seem to have power (e.g., Strider scolds Frodo for saying that if > he goes without food any longer, he'll become a wraith)? It strikes me > as odd that Dumbledore, who knows what words can do when used as > spells, takes their power so lightly. > > Are there any other examples of words that can or might have power in > the WW besides Voldemort's name and spells or incantations? (If anyone > wonders, the distinction I'm making here is between one- or two-word > spells like "Expelliarmus" and "Avada Kedavra" and lengthy > incantations, possibly accompanied with Potions, as in the restoration > of Voldemort in GoF.) Wouldn't a spoken oath be magically binding, for > example? (Again, think LOTR or the Silmarillion--the Ring binds Gollum > to his oath; the Silmarils bind the sons of Feanor to theirs.) Would > an oath sworn to Voldemort have power beyond the personal vengeance of > Voldemort on the oath breaker? (I'm assuming that the initiation > ceremony in which the DEs received their Dark Marks involved some such > oath and that Snape is breaking or has broken his.) That reminds me a bit of the Earthsea series (Ursula K. LeGuin) in which magic originates from the True Speech, and among other things, it is mentioned that the True Language binds men to the truth, and that Wizards do not swear because they realize the potential concequences thereof. I think the situations are rather different though - Dumbledore is discouraging people allowing fear to prevent them from saying Voldemort's name, in other words he's trying to help them stop letting fear control them. On the other hand Aragorn was warning Frodo not to joke about a situtation that could (and nearly does) come true, given his situation. I'm sure that if someone were to say something to the effect of "Better watch it or I'll Avada Kedavra you to next week!" Dumbledore would certainly have something to say about it. - James Lawlor jlawlor at gmail.com From katiefaye at comcast.net Mon Jul 12 21:10:32 2004 From: katiefaye at comcast.net (Kate) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:10:32 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Sirius was Chosen as Godparent & Sirius' sacrifice References: Message-ID: <003401c46854$ab5a2610$4c27aa43@s1100331568> No: HPFGUIDX 105908 Jen wrote: Now back to Godric's Hollow. What if Sirius being willing to die for Harry has more significance than previously thought? What if James & Lily chose him for this specific reason? In other words, there's more to this guardian selection, some additional protection conveyed onto Harry if Sirius does indeed die while attempting to protect him, similar to but not as powerful as Lily's sacrifice. Sort of a strengthening of Lily's sacrifice. vmonte responds: This is a cool theory! JKR did say that there was a reason why Sirius had to die. Your theory may be why. First of all JKR NEver said sirius had to die. she said Sirius had to fall through the veil. We haven't seen the last of Mr. black. if you go to her site Jkrowling.net with in the rumours section or the faq she discusses Harry not using the mirror to see if Sirius was safe and that even if harry had it wouldn't have made a difference. she also makes allusions to the fact that it is very important for harry to have that mirror in books six and seven. but the point, JKR never said sirius was dead. she ducks the topic by saying things like, I had to let him go. or He was becoming to influential on Harry. She's very good and NOT saying he's dead. Kate From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Mon Jul 12 21:55:02 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:55:02 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Hermione's Reaction to... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105909 GEO> wrote: > > I don't see how Hermione being with Ron or Harry for that matter and > > the trio still being close friends are incompatible? Salit: > Seeing all these great debates about which of the two boys ends up > with Hermione, I wonder if anyone considers that she is not really > interested in either of them romantically at this point. ! Aggie I think you are right here! I'm firmly against a H/Hr relationship and do see a R/Hr ship forming, however I feel that you are correct and that neither of them will do at the moment. It will probably still be a topic for discusson when all 7 books have been out for years. It'll drive us all mad with speculation for many moons to come. From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Mon Jul 12 21:13:38 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:13:38 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's gleam: Mortal LV In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105910 Stephanie: Large snippage on Lily's eyes. . . > By Vodemort taking Harry's blood in book 4, he unintentionally made > himself mortal. (the gleam in Dumbledore's eye, perhaps)...and can > now be killed with out turning into vapor and surviving yet again. > Maybe Lily's soul can not rest while Voledmort lives and it will be > her spirit as well as the spirit of "friendship (Neville) that will > help take down the Dark Lord. > Once that's done, I believe Harry's eye color will change and his > scar will disappear. Aggie: This post, #103092 (written only a couple of weeks ago but more than 20000 posts ago! WOW!) refers to a theory I thought was canon! When I originally read GOF, and when Dumbledore got his gleam, I thought it went on to say that this was because Harry had provided the blood and therefore this meant LV was mortal, at least for a while. However, I cannot find it now!! I am seriously beginning to believe that I dreamt it, or was trying to decipher 'the gleam' as I was reading! I have, however, found one reference to LV being mortal. . .GoF Ch33 The Death Eaters, p569 UK version. "There was no hope stealing the Philosopher's stone any more>..." I apologise as I'm sure that this quote has been done to death. I was just looking at GoF to get the death eaters straight in my head and thought about my original ramblings and decided to share them with you all! Aren't I kind!?! ;o)) From Amber_Falls at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 22:16:33 2004 From: Amber_Falls at yahoo.com (Amber_ Falls) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:16:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040712221633.26020.qmail@web90006.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105911 Del wrote : You're making two major assumptions with *no proof* here, Valky :-) No good, no good, won't convince me with that :-) First, you're assuming that James drew his wand when Snape drew his. I refute that by saying that you have no canon proof. And I go even further by saying that since James was *obviously* trying to pick a fight with Snape, it was only *logical* that he would *already* have his own wand out. Neither of us have canon to support our idea, but at least I have *logic* on my side ;-P And of course you also assume that Snape would have used some nasty curse straight away. No proof, no proof at all, says I !! Amber: Anyway, to me what James did was taunt Snape or provoke him if you like.So it isn't that obvious to me that James was trying to pick up a fight.I agree we don't have canon proof wether James had his wand out or not. But we see a bit previous in the book (OOP brit.ver. page 567)that James have excellent reflexes while playing with the snitch.It's not all that logical to assume that James had his wand already out. He could have been faster than Snape. Del wrote : We have no proof that a Pensieve memory is objective, but I would be *thoroughly* disappointed to learn that it isn't, because it would *undermine* the whole point of the Pensieve IMO. DD explained that he puts his memories in the Pensieve in order to help himself find patterns and links he couldn't find otherwise. But if those memories are flawed because subjective to start with, then how can he expect to make anything worthwhile out of them ? In my idea, the whole point of putting them outside of his own head is precisely that it's easier to observe them rationally this way, with an outsider's view, in other words : objectively. You know I've thought a lot about this. I don't think a memory is objective. If you think about it logically it can't be. It's something you experience in the past and emotion does play a part in it.Ask anybody about a past event. They might forget some details, but they'll will remember exactly how they felt.So lets not forget that this Snape memory. Yes Harry could hear what his father and friends said, but the fact is it's Snape's memory and no one else's. I think what DD meant was by putting the memory in the pensive allowed him to look at without the emotions that would go along with it. He could look at it in a more detached way. Just my 2 knuts Cheers Amber __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From dontask2much at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 23:31:05 2004 From: dontask2much at yahoo.com (charme) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:31:05 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: James the Berk? References: Message-ID: <04c301c46868$4de5f4a0$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> No: HPFGUIDX 105912 ----- Original Message ----- From: delwynmarch <> Charme: having an ingrown chuckle, hoping Del & Valky don't know too many curses or my Internet connection might suddenly bloody disappear ;) There's no doubt the adult Snape is one of the most logical wizards in the books and James, at the age he was when he appeared as Snape's memory in the Pensieve, is your common popular, free-spirited teenage boy wizard. Snape is a serious, studious teenage wizard geek with a less than stellar home life, if the other memories in canon are as we perceive them. Immature emotion breeds immature acts, not logic, and those actions can often not be justified. What I does intrigue me is applying the concept that every action has an indisputable reaction - good or bad. And bad actions often breed bad reactions, which breed worse actions....it's human nature and when emotions are involved, ZIP - logic - for the most part- is out the window. The only time logic is applied is when someone stands up and says "you shouldn't do that, it's wrong." The Snape memory Penseive scene depicts that in its entirety, only Lily was the one who stood up when there should have been another. That one other person is none other than the Werewolfmeister, LUPIN. He even admits it in canon - says that he never was able to prevent Sirius and James from their antics when he KNEW they were wrong. While I agree it's not RIGHT for flighty (no pun intended) James to torment poor geeky logical Snape, I do think these are the events which happen as we are growing up. They shape us, mold us and we either learn from them or we don't. Why wouldn't they? Now having said that, I'll take your bet Valky: *what if* Dark Magic is just any magic performed to the detrement, psychological or otherwise, of another? If that's the case, James AND Snape both are guilty. Snape is also guilty of a testosterone enhanced immature emotional reaction by his Lily name calling - some CHICK stood up for him, how embarrassing for someone whose self esteem is absolutely fragile in a desire not to fail! Del, I think you're right that Lily didn't hate James, she despised his behavior and she wanted him to change. If you weren't interested in a guy, why would you want to let him know what *exactly* he needs to change to get your attention? Funny...as I type this, I'm reminded that girls always mature faster than boys ;) Charme, grabbing an invisibility cloak and running for Hogsmeade :) From donpietro69 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 13 00:11:50 2004 From: donpietro69 at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Lee=20Moyo?=) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 01:11:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: My take on the HBP Message-ID: <20040713001150.82144.qmail@web25110.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105913 Lee I dont know if this has been brought up before but here goes This is just a thought on the subject. I was reading OoP again and I noticed that when Sirius and Harry are talking about the Tapestry >From PG105, up to 108 there is a few interesting things. First is that Andromeda is married to a Muggle which means they could have a another child, a son perhaps other than their Daughter Tonks and that could mean he is the HBP. then there is a book as well to suggest that there once was a Monarchy structure or something close to it. Take the book Sirius uses to kill, the spider looking creature, on page 108. The book is titled "Natures Nobility: A Wizarding Genealogy" Lee Just a thought --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From drliss at comcast.net Mon Jul 12 23:39:54 2004 From: drliss at comcast.net (Lissa Hess) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:39:54 -0400 Subject: Lupin/Ron in the Shrieking Shack In-Reply-To: <1089664747.65905.91573.m23@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20040712193808.0220def0@mail.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 105914 Tina: ""You boy - give me Peter, please. Now." Everytime I've listened to this book, I've wondered about the 'you boy;' that seems an odd way for Lupin to address Ron. On page 350, he twice calls him Ron (in a friendly sort of way) and surely they have a relationship since Ron has been in his class all year. I'm wondering if this is some sort of cryptic message. It just seems so odd. Since Peter is in the sentence I wondered if there was message about what might happen between Peter and Lupin (like everyone else, that silver hand worries me). " Lissa: Tina, I was just rereading that scene myself, and I noticed the same thing! My conclusion was that Lupin was REALLY stung when Ron said "Get away from me -werewolf-" so harshly. He forgave Ron, of course, but in those next few minutes he wasn't feeling overly friendly about him! I suspect that might be where the "boy" came from- insult for insult. Lissa From mhbobbin at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 23:42:42 2004 From: mhbobbin at yahoo.com (mhbobbin) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:42:42 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius Lure Severus into the Whomping Willow? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105915 Kneasy: > I see Sevvy as a vengeful type - he'd want his pound of flesh, tosee > his enemies humiliated. mhbobbin writes: Related to the attempt on Severus' life --- One of the ongoing mysteries is how / when did James become Head Boy, when we know he was not a Prefect in his fifth year. Remus was made Prefect, he believed, in order to keep his friends James and Sirius in line. By his account in OOTP, he failed miserably. We don't know all the details of the Hogwarts Prefect system but it doesn't make sense to be passed over for Prefect only to be chosen as Head Boy. I'm just wondering if James became Head Boy because he rescued Snape? And perhaps because Remus was removed as Prefect. Not necessarily because of anything he had done--perhaps it just wasn't political to keep him as Prefect after this episode. I think that these two events--the Whomping Willow episode and James becoming Head Boy--may be related. mhbobbin From dzeytoun at cox.net Mon Jul 12 23:54:22 2004 From: dzeytoun at cox.net (dzeytoun) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:54:22 -0000 Subject: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105916 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > Laurasia: > > After all, is he is a kind powerful headmaster, why does he let a > nasty bullying teacher bully his kids. Surely, Dumbledore should > stop it the second he discovers it. Either he doesn't know, or he > isn't the kind powerful head master Harry thinks he is, or else he > wants it to happen. >snip< > > Pippin: > > It's also perfectly consistent with a Dumbledore who believes in > letting people make up their own minds and would > rather have people disagree with him and be wrong, than agree > only because he's Albus Dumbledore and he said so. > This, however, raises problems when compared to JKR's statement about Dumbledore "is goodness." I'm sorry, but standing back and watching somebody else bully and emotionally torment kids just because you would "rather them disagree and be wrong than agree just because I said so" isn't goodness to me, and I'm willing to bet real money it isn't goodness to most other people. Dzeytoun From aleesahn at earthlink.net Tue Jul 13 01:27:21 2004 From: aleesahn at earthlink.net (aleesahn) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 01:27:21 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry in the Contex In-Reply-To: <40F3B667.10387.6756D1@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105917 I also really enjoyed, and was enlightened by, your essay! As a California girl I have little life experience with the British public school system, or with boarding schools of any type. In fact, I'm so intrigued that I've come out from a year or more of lurking just to ask this question as my very first post! Reading the responses to your essay, and your subsequent replies, I'm hoping for clarification on some terms you've used: Shaun Hately writes: > I'm also thinking it might be worth looking at some of the ways > Hogwarts differs from the classic public school model, and why it > might do so, given it's a good match in other areas. > > One thing that immediately leaps to mind is the apparent absence of > any fags and fagging... it could have existed at Hogwarts, > historically of course, but I suspect the existence of the house > elves may well have meant there was no imperative for it. Would you mind explaining "fag" and "fagging" in the context you've used them? I'm assuming these words have a very different meaning where I come from (slang refering to homosexuals). Thank you! -Aleesahn From mayeaux45 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 01:40:51 2004 From: mayeaux45 at yahoo.com (mayeaux45) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 01:40:51 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Hermione's Reaction to... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105918 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "slgazit" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" > wrote: > > I don't see how Hermione being with Ron or Harry for that matter and > > the trio still being close friends are incompatible? > > Seeing all these great debates about which of the two boys ends up > with Hermione, I wonder if anyone considers that she is not really > interested in either of them romantically at this point. I agree that > Ron has a crash on her, and I think that Harry may become interested > in her, though has not so far. She clearly loves both of them - but > only as *friends*. For the time being, I have the impression that she > considers both of them too immature for any romantic involvement. > Instead she writes volumes of letters to Victor Krum (4 years her > senior). The truth is that neither Ron nor Harry are at the stage yet > where they can sustain a romantic relationship, certainly not with a > girl as mature as Hermione. Having a son who (like Harry) will be 16 > in a few weeks, this does not surprise me in the least - they are > simply not ready yet. Hermione will stick to dating older guys for the > time being, I think. > > For that matter, how many high school relationships make it to > marriage in the real world - or in the WW for that matter. We may end > the series with no resolution on the dating part - just like in real life! > > Salit Sailt, you made a great point. We *may* not have resolution on the dating part in the series. But something tells me JKR wouldn't do that to her fans. She has already said she would wrap EVERYTHING up in these next two books. No loose ends! That includes relationships on all ALL fronts. When I first started reading this post I got so fired up and wanted to respond to everything, but now it seems as if it really is a lose/lose situation. There as many H/Hr moments as there are R/Hr ones (if not more)! These debates could go on for a very long time...Most likely will for that matter! And I love that! It gives H/Hr shippers an insight into the R/Hr relationship that they may not have noticed and vice versa with the R/Hr shippers to the H/Hr relationship. All this debate just gets me extremely anxious for book 6! But like I said before on a previous post...JKR is not going to have her beloved HP go through all the stuff he has and continues to go through without giving him a "love" that is his own. Whether that is Hermione or not is remained to be seen. Personally I think it will be! ;) Ron may come off as a dim-witted teenage boy, but I think he's far from it. It's his insecurities that make him *appear* that way. When giving himself enough credit he can be very insightful and intuitive. Ex: Allowing himself to relax before the final Quidditch match in OotP. My point is...he might very well be the one to truly *see* (or notice) what might or will happen between H/Hr. JKR has only given us Harry's interpretation (point of view) of R/Hr moments (or arguments really)in the books. What about Ron? Can he see what is obvious to him between H/Hr? And have we completely forgotten about Luna Lovegood?! The way JKR writes it...it seems to me that Luna fancies Ron. Let's not rule out that relationship either. Between Luna fancying Ron, who fancies Hermione, who could *possibly* fancy Harry, who *used* to fancy Cho, who later ran off with Micheal Corner, who used to be Ginny's boyfriend...it's a HUGE TOSS UP! Let's face it...in the world of JKR anything is possible! ;) Just trying to strike up some friendly debate and controversy! Forgive me? ;) From Batchevra at aol.com Tue Jul 13 02:52:21 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:52:21 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lupin/Ron in the Shrieking Shack Message-ID: <1e5.24f8d428.2e24a865@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105919 In a message dated 7/12/04 4:09:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tinainfay at msn.com writes: >Hi everyone! My first post here. As I was listening to PoA today I noticed something that struck me as odd and it brought up a question. In the Shrieking Shack, Lupin addresses the group and then Ron (p 362, Am HB) saying: "Then it's time we offered you some proof," said Lupin. "You boy - give me Peter, please. Now." Everytime I've listened to this book, I've wondered about the 'you boy;' that seems an odd way for Lupin to address Ron. On page 350, he twice calls him Ron (in a friendly sort of way) and surely they have a relationship since Ron has been in his class all year. I'm wondering if this is some sort of cryptic message. It just seems so odd. Since Peter is in the sentence I wondered if there was message about what might happen between Peter and Lupin (like everyone else, that silver hand worries me). Thoughts? Or is this Quibbler- worthy? ~tina< You have the US Scholastic version of POA, in the UK Bloomsbury version it is Sirius who says the line. It is one of those editing for the American edition that happened and was never corrected by Scholastic. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mayeaux45 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 02:23:26 2004 From: mayeaux45 at yahoo.com (mayeaux45) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 02:23:26 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Hermione's Reaction to... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105921 Despite all the debate that Ron *deserves* to have love and not get hurt with the possible relationship between H/Hr...We are forgetting the most IMPORTANT theme of the HP series that JKR has repeatedly pointed out. LOVE! And let's face it, at this point in the HP series the only character that is feeling the MOST hurt, alone, and unloved when it comes to family and possible romantic involvements, is HARRY *bloody* Potter! If anyone deserves it, it would be Harry. Let's stop feeling 'oh so sorry for poor Ronald' ( whom I absolutely ADORE...don't get me wrong!) But too much emphasis is being put on him for being spared the hurt of losing a possible romance with Hermione. Harry has very few joys besides Quidditch! He also has a short list of people in his life that have been there for him 100% without faltering in their loyalty. Of course he has Ron (but he proved to be not completely 100% loyal in GoF), he has Dumbledore (but then he too kept CRUCIAL information from Harry when he needed it most in OotP), he also has Prof. Lupin (but as recent posts have so cleverly pointed out ,as well as the PoA movie, he too may very well be keeping important info. from Harry as well). Sirius is DEAD, Lily and James are DEAD, the Dursleys' LOATHE him (with the exception of his Aunt Petunia who we have yet to *really* find out about), Prof. Snape finds every opportunity he can to undermine him and put him as well as his father down (even after the battle at the MoM Snape is still cruel, cold, and heartless towards Harry), and as if that wasn't enough....the weight of the entire WW is on his teenage shoulders! PHEW! Can we get some well needed sympathy for Harry too or should I write more? IMO, Hermione is the ONLY one thus far, that has shown unwavering solidarity and loyalty towards Harry! That speaks volumes...once again IMO! From garybec101 at comcast.net Tue Jul 13 03:02:31 2004 From: garybec101 at comcast.net (garybec) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 03:02:31 -0000 Subject: The 'Power' of Hermione's wand-movie foreshadow? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105922 > > Aggie: > > > So it is possible that just one person's 'expelliarmus' could > >knock someone flying. It's curious though, that when the children > >used it they just disarmed their opponent. Maybe the power of this > >spell does grow with age, or maybe because Snape was so angry (as > >was Harry in the Shrieking Shack) it enhanced the spell. > > >Leb: > > I didn't follow the earlier thread so I hope I'm not just repeating > > what someone else said. I think the anger you mentioned is the key > > here just like the unforgivable curses. Snape obviously wanted to > > tear Lockhart to pieces so when he did the charm it literally blew > > him away. Same with the trio (in the book) and just Harry (in the > > movie). The hatred of Snape really feuled it and put some serious > > oomph behind it! Becki's thoughts; Couldn't it possibly just be the fact that it is not his wand and in cannon it is stated "you will never get the same results with someone elses wand." (please don't ask me to find this right now, I am so tired and trying to catch up before bed). BeckiZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzz From drednort at alphalink.com.au Tue Jul 13 02:59:14 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:59:14 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry in the Contex In-Reply-To: References: <40F3B667.10387.6756D1@localhost> Message-ID: <40F3DCA2.18175.FCB210@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 105923 On 13 Jul 2004 at 1:27, aleesahn wrote: > I also really enjoyed, and was enlightened by, your essay! As a > California girl I have little life experience with the British > public school system, or with boarding schools of any type. In fact, > I'm so intrigued that I've come out from a year or more of lurking > just to ask this question as my very first post! Reading the > responses to your essay, and your subsequent replies, I'm hoping for > clarification on some terms you've used: I'm glad you liked the post, and I'm happy to clarify anything I can for you, or anyone else, about what I have written. > Shaun Hately writes: > > > One thing that immediately leaps to mind is the apparent absence of > > any fags and fagging... it could have existed at Hogwarts, > > historically of course, but I suspect the existence of the house > > elves may well have meant there was no imperative for it. > > > Would you mind explaining "fag" and "fagging" in the context you've > used them? I'm assuming these words have a very different meaning > where I come from (slang refering to homosexuals). > Thank you! > -Aleesahn Ah - yes, I really should have thought to explain that. In the context of public schools "fagging" referred to the practice of using younger boys as servants for senior boys. The practice differed widely between schools. In some schools, junior boys were assigned to a particular senior boy and did things like clean his shoes, make him cups of tea etc. In other schools, all the junior boys were expected to work for all the senior boys as a group. Such servants were referred to as "fags" - and in some schools, this came to be a generic term used for any junior boy. At Hogwarts, the presence of the House Elves might have rendered such a practice pointless. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 03:03:37 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 03:03:37 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Hermione's Reaction to... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105924 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mayeaux45" wrote: > Despite all the debate that Ron *deserves* to have love and not get > hurt with the possible relationship between H/Hr...We are forgetting > the most IMPORTANT theme of the HP series that JKR has repeatedly > pointed out. LOVE! And let's face it, at this point in the HP > series the only character that is feeling the MOST hurt, alone, and > unloved when it comes to family and possible romantic involvements, > is HARRY *bloody* Potter! If anyone deserves it, it would be > Harry. Let's stop feeling 'oh so sorry for poor Ronald' ( whom I > absolutely ADORE...don't get me wrong!) > snip. Alla: OK, just a comment from someone who adores Harry and wants to "mother" him, but absolutely does not care whom he ends up with, as long as he is alive and has people who love him to help him bear his burdens. I am absolutely honest when I tell you that I don't care whom Harry ends up with (as long as he is not alone, of course). It could be Hermione, Luna , Ginny or any secondary character. Does not matter to me. I agree that Harry deserves to be loved, BUT to me all clues in the books point so clearly to Ron/Hermione and less clearly, but clear enough to Harry/Ginny (that I much less certain of, but we'll see). Of course JKR may surprise us just because too many people are saying that this is too obvious. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 03:05:43 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 03:05:43 -0000 Subject: CoS versus the Dark Mark (was Re: Sirius,Snape,Lily,CoS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105925 Nadine wrote: > Your post reminded me also of something Voldemort said in the > graveyard scene in GoF. He said (The Death Eaters Chapter) : ?.. I > was willing to embrace mortal life again (...) I set my sights > lower... I would settle for my old body back again and my old > strength.? > Did he really settle for his old body ? Voldy needed three powerful > ingredients : (1) Flesh given by a servant; (2) His father's bone > and (3) The blood of a foe. What bugs me is that Tom Riddle Sr. was > not a wizard. The Salazar Slytherin's blood that used to flow in > Voldemort's old body came from his mother and I presume it was > destroyed in Godric's Hollow. Somehow, the ?new? Voldemort seems to > be walking around minus the old Salazar Slytherin component. Is he > a ?quarter? blood sort of Lord now ? Maybe that is the explanation > for the look of triumph in DD's eye. There seem to always be a half > something (or someone) missing somewhere. What part am I missing ? Carol responds: I think maybe you're reading a little too literally, applying Muggle genetics on the assumption that identity, including Parseltongue and other traits inherited from Salazar Slytherin, is in the genes, which are in the body, and that without his body (changed as it was in the time between Tom Riddle's departure from England and his return as Voldemort), he can no longer have the traits he inherited through his mother's line. Am I interpreting you correctly here? If so, I don't think that's how JKR views the mind/body connection. I think for her the mind exists independently of the body. For example, when Harry "becomes" Goyle by drinking the polyjuice potion, which has what we could consider to be the "genetic" Goyle in it, added to the potion via his hair, Harry is still Harry. His body is Goyle's but his mind is his own. (Even an animagus keeps his human mind in addition to the animal mind that exists only when he's in his animal form, but that's a more complex matter that I've already hypothesized about in another post.) If I'm right, then the Voldemort that escaped when his body was destroyed is the essential Voldemort--his mind and spirit, his memories, his hatreds, and (when he regains his strength) his abilities--including Parseltongue and whatever other traits came to him from his Slytherin-descended mother. His old body isn't necessary because these traits belong to his *essence* (or essential *self*), which is spiritual and mental, not physical. (I don't mean that his essence can't change over time--becoming corrupted through his use of Unforgiveable Curses, etc. I just mean that this essential self is not dependent on his physical form. Unless he's possessing a snake, in which case his own thoughts merge with the snake's perceptions to create a seemingly united self that's really "in essence divided," to steal DD's words from another context.) To return to Godric's Hollow, what I don't understand is how anyone knew Voldemort wasn't actually dead if his body was found, and how anyone knew he was (nearly) destroyed if it wasn't. Wouldn't people think that he had just left the scene when he failed to kill the baby along with the parents? (I'm assuming that there wasn't a witness, or if PP was there, he didn't tell what he knew for fear of implicating himself.) I guess DD deduced that only Voldemort could or would have killed the Potters, and the fact that Harry was alive and "marked" indicated that he had somehow (through no will or effort of his own) "defeated" Voldemort, who somehow was also not dead. DD must have passed that knowledge or interpretation on to the WW at large, maybe the Daily Prophet, very quickly, considering the celebrations the very next day. I tend to think that Voldemort's body was *vaporized* and that DD knew that would happen if the AK was deflected onto him. But if there was no body, how would anyone besides DD know that Voldemort had not simply gone into hiding? Would Harry's survival alone have conveyed that when the WW as a whole was not aware of the prophecy? Would they simply have taken Dumbledore at his word? Carol, who is more confused now than she was when she began this post and who hopes that everyone at least understands *why* she's confused From davidagabbard at hotmail.com Tue Jul 13 01:01:02 2004 From: davidagabbard at hotmail.com (davidagabbard) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 01:01:02 -0000 Subject: Three People in the Prophecy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105926 What if there are three people referred to in the prophecy? On her website, JKR says she worded the prophecy "extremely carefully." What if: The one = Harry Potter The Dark Lord = Lord Voldemort The other = Neville Longbottom JKR writes: "and either (*the one* OR the *Dark Lord*) must die at the hand of THE OTHER for neither can live while THE OTHER survives..." (all emphases mine) Since I first read the prophecy, I thought that "the other" referred to Harry or Voldemort and they would have to try and kill each other to truly live. It makes a whole lot of sense to read it that way and it is quite a bit simpler than the theory I'm throwing out here, but stay with me. In the American version of OOP, P. 841, Harry hears the phrophecy and then asks: "What did that mean?" Dumbledore explains that the only person who can ultimately defeat Lord Voldemort was born at the end of July sixteen years ago... Harry asks: "It means -- me?" Dumbledore then explains that it could have applied to two wizard boys with parents who escaped L.V. three times. Dumbledore says: "ONE, of course, was you. THE OTHER was Neville Longbottom." (Again, my emphasis.)(OOP American version page 842) Could JKR throw this type of twist at us? Does she gives us the answer to her "extremely carefully"-worded prophecy eight tiny paragraphs after she writes it? I know it is a stretch since this theory would imply that neither Harry nor Lord Voldemort can live while Neville "survives" and that either Harry or Voldemort will die by Neville's hand, but what do you think? If this theory has previously been posted or even hinted at, I apologize. I searched for this topic through the huge archives - but found nothing. Thanks, David From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 03:11:06 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 03:11:06 -0000 Subject: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105927 Pippin wrote previously: > > It's also perfectly consistent with a Dumbledore who believes in > > letting people make up their own minds and would > > rather have people disagree with him and be wrong, than agree > > only because he's Albus Dumbledore and he said so. > > Dzeytoun: > This, however, raises problems when compared to JKR's statement about > Dumbledore "is goodness." I'm sorry, but standing back and watching > somebody else bully and emotionally torment kids just because you > would "rather them disagree and be wrong than agree just because I > said so" isn't goodness to me, and I'm willing to bet real money it > isn't goodness to most other people. > Alla: Too true, Dzeytoun, it is not "goodness" to me either, far from it and I am one of those people who believes JKR interviews, even only based on the fact that I am still to see her lie in the interview and when she does not want to naswer question, she says so usually. What can I say? I would say that it is at least consistent with 'teaching students how to deal with nasty people" routine. From garybec101 at comcast.net Tue Jul 13 03:24:39 2004 From: garybec101 at comcast.net (garybec) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 03:24:39 -0000 Subject: Three People in the Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105928 "davidagabbard wrote; > What if there are three people referred to in the prophecy? On her > website, JKR says she worded the prophecy "extremely carefully." > > What if: > The one = Harry Potter > The Dark Lord = Lord Voldemort > The other = Neville Longbottom > > JKR writes: > "and either (*the one* OR the *Dark Lord*) must die at the hand of > THE OTHER for neither can live while THE OTHER survives..." (all > emphases mine) > > Since I first read the prophecy, I thought that "the other" > referred to Harry or Voldemort and they would have to try and kill > each other to truly live. > > It makes a whole lot of sense to read it that way and it is quite a > bit simpler than the theory I'm throwing out here, but stay with me. > > In the American version of OOP, P. 841, Harry hears the phrophecy > and then asks: "What did that mean?" Dumbledore explains that the > only person who can ultimately defeat Lord Voldemort was born at the > end of July sixteen years ago... Harry asks: "It means -- me?" > Dumbledore then explains that it could have applied to two wizard > boys with parents who escaped L.V. three times. Dumbledore > says: "ONE, of course, was you. THE OTHER was Neville Longbottom." > (Again, my emphasis.)(OOP American version page 842) > > David Becki's thought; I just finished the OoP on CD (again), and if Neville was any part of that prophecy, his name should have been on the sphere at the Department of Mysteries. Only LV and Harry's name were there. I suppose it could be a mistake on Jo's part if she is trying to trick us but Dumbledore is pretty up & up, so I tend to believe him. Becki From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Tue Jul 13 03:32:06 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 03:32:06 -0000 Subject: Ron as prefect? In-Reply-To: <40F3C222.17343.952A71@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105929 Arya wrote: Well, I might ageree with you, Del, if it weren't for JKR telling us herself that Ron wasn't the best prefect and didn't even know by the end of the year that prefects could dock points. (Referencing her website's FAQ page.) I just don't see Ron having taken his responsibilities very seriously - and you'd think for someone with such ambitions as to be Head Boy one day, he might want to work a bit for it. Taking points seems to be a pretty basic principle in the duty of a prefect to enforce rules but, erm, Ron never even *knew* he could or should do this. That doesn't make him look too stellar with any spin you might put on it. Shaun wrote: > OK - JKR, does *not* say Ron isn't the best prefect. From the FAQ. "Can prefects take points or not? A prefect took points from Gryffindor in the Chamber of Secrets, and then there was a reference to prefects not being allowed to dock points. What are the rules? Ron got it wrong in 'Phoenix', from which we deduce that he hasn't been a very authoritarian prefect thus far; he clearly hasn't been taking points from anybody." > What she says is that he is not a 'very authoritarian prefect'. > That is *very* different from whether or not he's a good or a bad > one. ---------- Sorry, yes, I paraphrased and "was not the best prefect" is my combined interpretation of JKR's comment and the fact that Ron didn't know even this most basic element of prefectship. I do apologize for any confusion. ---------- > Shaun wrote: > When I was a prefect at school, I had disciplinary powers - and I > used them a lot. I had to, because for me it was the only way I > could impose my authority on some other students. > > The people I would consider though to have been the *best* prefects > I worked with - some of them virtually never had to use their > disciplinary powers. They had a knack of being able to get people > to do what they were supposed to do without punishing them. They'd > do it when they had to - but they had to very seldom. > > Yes, taking points is a prefect's duty at Hogwarts, and it does > worry me slightly than Ron doesn't even seem to know he has the > power. But it's possible that he simply hasn't had the need to use > it. He may be getting results in other ways. We don't really get to > see much of what he does. >---------------- This makes me think of the saying about the most awesome display of power being one where the one with power refrains from exerting it when the otherwise could. Like granting mercy when you could order the axe or like giving a warning when you could give a detention. I would agree--these are nobles folks who can do this and their kindness and sparring of the rod is often more endearing and encouraging of obediance than a heavy-handed authroitarian. However, I don't think this is what is true of Ron--that he simply didn't need to use it-- since he knew not about the power he had (to take away points) he wasn't being sparing in not excercising that power. Erm, now I can't help but wonder if the prophecy has to do with Ron and the 'power he knows not'. Perhaps the answer to defeating Voldemort is in docking points from Slytherin whenever he terrorizes people??? Okay, maybe not. Arya (whoc knows she's being a bit vague and pointless...) From garybec101 at comcast.net Tue Jul 13 03:38:56 2004 From: garybec101 at comcast.net (garybec) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 03:38:56 -0000 Subject: My take on the HBP In-Reply-To: <20040713001150.82144.qmail@web25110.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105930 > Lee > I dont know if this has been brought up before but here goes > This is just a thought on the subject. I was reading OoP again and > I noticed that when Sirius and Harry are talking about the Tapestry > From PG105, up to 108 there is a few interesting things. First is > that Andromeda is married to a Muggle which means they could have a > another child, a son perhaps other than their Daughter Tonks and that > could mean he is the HBP. > Just a thought Lee Becki says; Actually, Ted Tonks is Muggle-Born, not a Muggle. But that would make her still a half-blood, like Harry, becki From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue Jul 13 03:38:58 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 03:38:58 -0000 Subject: The 'Power' of Hermione's wand-movie foreshadow? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105931 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aggiepaddy" wrote: > We know that JKR said that there were aspects to the PoA film that > foreshadowed the next two books. One 'event' that happened in the > film but not in the book was in the Shrieking Shack. Harry used > Hermione's wand to knock Snape out whereas in the book HR and H > used 'expelliarmus' to knock him out. > > Anasazi and others wondered if this meant there was something special about Hermione's wand. > Valky: Hi, my name is valky and I am a HPFGU addict. I *really* shouldn't be here but, well..., after the logic debate with Del I actually found my brain more prepared for commutative and associative forms than, I think, I should have been otherwise. I really should get back to it anyway, though. My quick word on this post is, Hey I never noticed that! And Did anyone, other than I, wonder wether the actual foreshadowing is the power of Harry and Hermione as a duality? Just something to consider anyway, since it has meaning in both the context of the movie and that of the book. From mousepad at insightbb.com Tue Jul 13 03:09:03 2004 From: mousepad at insightbb.com (Mousepad) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:09:03 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Hermione's Reaction to... References: Message-ID: <001801c46886$c0a98ce0$6901a8c0@brmkam> No: HPFGUIDX 105932 ----- Original Message ----- From: "mayeaux45" > > PHEW! Can we get some well needed > sympathy for Harry too or should I write more? IMO, Hermione is the > ONLY one thus far, that has shown unwavering solidarity and loyalty > towards Harry! That speaks volumes...once again IMO! What about Luna Lovegood? Colin Creevy? Neville Longbottom? Ginny Weasley? Hagrid? Lady Kate From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Tue Jul 13 03:44:43 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 03:44:43 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Hermione's Reaction to... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105933 "mayeaux45" wrote: Despite all the debate that Ron *deserves* to have love and not get hurt with the possible relationship between H/Hr...We are forgetting the most IMPORTANT theme of the HP series that JKR has repeatedly pointed out. LOVE! And let's face it, at this point in the HP series the only character that is feeling the MOST hurt, alone, and unloved when it comes to family and possible romantic involvements, is HARRY *bloody* Potter! If anyone deserves it, it would be Harry. Let's stop feeling 'oh so sorry for poor Ronald' ( whom I absolutely ADORE...don't get me wrong!) But too much emphasis is being put on him for being spared the hurt of losing a possible romance with Hermione. Harry has very few joys besides Quidditch! He also has a short list of people in his life that have been there for him 100% without faltering in their loyalty. Of course he has Ron (but he proved to be not completely 100% loyal in GoF), he has Dumbledore (but then he too kept CRUCIAL information from Harry when he needed it most in OotP), he also has Prof. Lupin (but as recent posts have so cleverly pointed out ,as well as the PoA movie, he too may very well be keeping important info. from Harry as well). Sirius is DEAD, Lily and James are DEAD, the Dursleys' LOATHE him (with the exception of his Aunt Petunia who we have yet to *really* find out about), Prof. Snape finds every opportunity he can to undermine him and put him as well as his father down (even after the battle at the MoM Snape is still cruel, cold, and heartless towards Harry), and as if that wasn't enough....the weight of the entire WW is on his teenage shoulders! PHEW! Can we get some well needed sympathy for Harry too or should I write more? IMO, Hermione is the ONLY one thus far, that has shown unwavering solidarity and loyalty towards Harry! That speaks volumes...once again IMO! ------------- That's an excellent post, mayeaux. I totally agree. I'm not even speaking about a Hr/H ship argumet but as a reminder to put everything into perspective. Hermione is currently somewhat of on a pedestal among Harry's other friends and "family". She's the one I have 100% complete faith in her loyalty to him and her tendency to support him at all costs. (Yes, yes, Ron's loyal, put away the pitchforks. But he's not been 100% there for Harry in the times when Harry felt he needed his friends to be. Period.) The solidarity between Harry and HErmione is inspiring and is my absolute favorite relationship (not even considering romance) in the entire book series. Hermione, even if she did like Ron (which I see very little evidence persisting through OotP that she does), I do not believe she would ever ever ever turn to snogging Ron when Harry is at this point in his life. She wold not, IMO, forsake Harry as her number one focus for ANYONE. Arya (who is a firm believer in R-->Hr-->H and an eventual Trio triangle of heartbreak because there simply is not more powerful emotion than love) From srobles at caribe.net Tue Jul 13 03:45:52 2004 From: srobles at caribe.net (anasazi_pr) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 03:45:52 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105934 delwynmarch wrote: > Hermione wasn't issued to Ron, agreed, but neither was she issued to > Harry. What I meant was that Ron is always second-best to Harry : > Harry's got the money, the fame (even if he doesn't want it), the > talent, the better looks, and he was supposed to get the Prefect > badge. But Ron doesn't care most of the time, because he's such a > loyal friend. However, I think he *would* care very much if Harry > started dating Hermione. He would hurt a lot and I feel it wouldn't > be fair on JKR's part to put Ron through *that*. My reply: Ouch. This actually made me cringe. Ron is always second best to Harry? Well, it seems to me Ron has much more of what really counts than Harry. True, Ron is poor... but he happens to have a good home where the people that live there love him (and we all know that, even with all the teasing, the twins love their little bro). He has a mother and a father who love him. He has no money, but I doubt he's ever gone hungry to bed. He may not be the brightest boy when it comes to school (neither is Harry - the position belongs solely to Draco), but he has shown he's a good strategist. He's now able to play his beloved Quidditch, and is enjoying the fame and attention that came with it. Now, let's compare what Ron has with Harry... Harry is an orphan, both parents murdered by a powerhungry sociopath when he was only one year old. Forced to live for 10 years with an abusive family that regarded him as less valuable than the poo I stepped on last night (and that's pretty low my friend). I mean, we can consider that Ron's self-esteem might be a bit low due to the constant comparison with his succesful older brothers... but what about Harry, who lived for those 10 years in the shadow of Dudley? Then he finds he's a wizard and that he has money. Pity that is blood money since he only inherited because his parents are dead. Then in Hogwarts, he is thrown in the limelight of fame in a way he comes to despise (how many people want to have lies written about them in the media, raise their hands), finds out that the murdering sociopath is still out there, waiting to come back to his full power, in order to finish what they started that night in Godric's Hollow (Re: Death). He's been close to death not once, not twice, but six times, and has witnessed the people he cares about almost losing their lives because of their relationship with him. He has gained, and LOST, the closest thing he had to a paternal figure (Sirius). And now, he has that godforsaken prophecy hanging over his head. Talk about pressure! I would have broken down a long time ago. So it seems to me that Harry was the one that drew the short straw here. Anasazi From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 03:57:29 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 03:57:29 -0000 Subject: Snape Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105935 "chinaskisnotes" wrote: Also, speaking of when Snape became a member of the order, JKR went out of her way to tell us how long teachers had been at Hogwarts. Trelawney 16 years, prophecy time, before Harry's birth. Snape, 14 years, after Harry's parent's death. Could he have been the one to alert DD to their deaths? > Carol responds: We don't know that Snape became a teacher after Harry's parents deaths, which occurred on October 31. It could have been just before their deaths, at the start of term on September 1. This would in fact make more sense than hiring him two months into the school year. Surely a teacher didn't conveniently die just as Voldemort fell (and Snape needed a job). I think Snape was already at Hogwarts when the Potters died, pretending to spy on Dumbledore but really getting away from the Death Eaters before Voldemort went after the Potters. It's even possible that a change in his Dark Mark was what alerted Dumbledore to Voldemort's fall. Carol From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 03:59:02 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 03:59:02 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105936 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "anasazi_pr" wrote: snipping the excellent post for details. > Ouch. This actually made me cringe. Ron is always second best to > Harry? Well, it seems to me Ron has much more of what really counts > than Harry. > > True, Ron is poor... but he happens to have a good home where the > people that live there love him (and we all know that, even with all > the teasing, the twins love their little bro). He has a mother and a > father who love him. He has no money, but I doubt he's ever gone > hungry to bed. He's now able to play his > beloved Quidditch, and is enjoying the fame and attention that came > with it. > > Now, let's compare what Ron has with Harry... Harry is an orphan, > both parents murdered by a powerhungry sociopath when he was only one > year old. Forced to live for 10 years with an abusive family that > regarded him as less valuable than the poo I stepped on last night > (and that's pretty low my friend). I mean, we can consider that Ron's > self-esteem might be a bit low due to the constant comparison with > his succesful older brothers... but what about Harry, who lived for > those 10 years in the shadow of Dudley? snip. > He's been close to death not once, not twice, but six times, and has > witnessed the people he cares about almost losing their lives because > of their relationship with him. He has gained, and LOST, the closest > thing he had to a paternal figure (Sirius). And now, he has that > godforsaken prophecy hanging over his head. Talk about pressure! I > would have broken down a long time ago. > > So it seems to me that Harry was the one that drew the short straw > here. > Alla: Definitely. I stated before that in comparison to what Harry has to the looks of outsider Ron has a pretty good deal. I was very happy that in OoP Rowling did not make Ron complain about his poverty, because if she did , I would want to scream "Shut up and grow up, already". (Or did he complain in OoP, I am too tired to look it up now) I was raised with the idea that material things do not matter, unless of course you are hungry and don't have a roof over your head. It is what inside the person is the most important. (I was raised in the communist country, so I understand that many people would not take well to that particular idea though ;o) Now, I think that money is important part of life, but still they are only means to live , not the reason why I live. So, yes, Ron's complaints sounded incredibly petty to me. But I think that in OoP he did pretty well helping Harry whenever he could. From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 13 04:06:20 2004 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 04:06:20 -0000 Subject: Why Sirius was Chosen as Godparent & Sirius' sacrifice In-Reply-To: <003401c46854$ab5a2610$4c27aa43@s1100331568> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105937 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kate" wrote: > Jen wrote: > > Now back to Godric's Hollow. What if Sirius being willing to die for > Harry has more significance than previously thought? What if James & > Lily chose him for this specific reason? In other words, there's > more to this guardian selection, some additional protection conveyed > onto Harry if Sirius does indeed die while attempting to protect > him, similar to but not as powerful as Lily's sacrifice. Sort of a > strengthening of Lily's sacrifice. > > vmonte responds: > > This is a cool theory! JKR did say that there was a reason why Sirius > had to die. Your theory may be why. > > > > First of all JKR NEver said sirius had to die. she said Sirius had to fall through the veil. We haven't seen the last of Mr. black. if you go to her site Jkrowling.net with in the rumours section or the faq she discusses Harry not using the mirror to see if Sirius was safe and that even if harry had it wouldn't have made a difference. she also makes allusions to the fact that it is very important for harry to have that mirror in books six and seven. but the point, JKR never said sirius was dead. she ducks the topic by saying things like, I had to let him go. or He was becoming to influential on Harry. She's very good and NOT saying he's dead. > > Kate >From the World Book Day chat March 4, 2004: Why did you kill Sirius? It made me very sad :( JK Rowling replies -> I'm really, really sorry. I didn't want to do it, but there was a reason. If you think you can forgive me, keep reading, you'll find out. [I feel really guilty now]. She does not deny killing Sirius, she only apologizes for it. All of the characters we have come to rely on as the truth tellers (DD in particular) have said Sirius is dead. That does not mean, however, he is gone forever, just that he is dead. This is the wizarding world after all. Sue(hpfan) From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Jul 13 04:20:12 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 04:20:12 -0000 Subject: Out On A Limb About Florence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105938 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snazzzybird" wrote: > Now that JKR has let the air out of the Mark Evans trial balloon, I'm > going to go out on a limb with a fearless prediction: > > Florence will prove to be another Mark. > > Florence could have been anybody. Florence was nobody. Whoever she > was kissing, I hope she enjoyed it, because I think that was the > closest she's going to get to her 15 minutes of fame in the > Potterverse. Jen: Lol, you're too funny snazzybird! Aren't you least bit curious who her mystery man was?!? I'd like to know that part. OTOH, maybe that was his 15 minutes of fame too, and he didn't even get a name..... Jen, still holding out hope Florence will return and quickly, before she loses all her fans. From jakejensen at hotmail.com Tue Jul 13 04:22:52 2004 From: jakejensen at hotmail.com (jakedjensen) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 04:22:52 -0000 Subject: Dudley as HBP??!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105939 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mandy" wrote: > > Jake wrote: > > I think it highly unlikely that Dudley is the half blood prince. > > Harry is suppose to be a half-blood. (James-pure; Lily-muggle > born). So, unless Vernon is a wizard (highly unlikely), Dudley, at > best, could only be a muggle-born. > > > Mandy here: > I think you are confused, or I misunderstood your post. > > The blood status of a wizard child is not dependant on just the > father, but the mother too. > > We all know Vernon is a muggle; no doubt about it, but there is the > possibility Petunia could be a witch. Her behavior in OotP is > extremely odd. If Petunia does turn out to be a witch, that would > make Dudley a half-blood. The son of a witch mother and muggle > father, just like Seamus. Jake replies: I admit there is wiggle room in this whole blood line arena, but your interp. seems unlikely. By your definition, Harry would be a pure- blood (i.e., both his parents are magic-folk). The canon clearly states that Harry is a half-blood. "There are strange likenesses between us, after all. Even you must have noticed. Both half-bloods, orphans, raised by Muggles. Probably the only two Parselmouths to come to Hogwarts since the great Slytherin himself" (CoS, p. 317). So, harry is half and half. In a half and half, someone has to be the magic half (James Potter) and someone has to be the muggle-blood half (Lily Evans). Even if Petunia is a witch (and she may be), Dudley would only be a half-blood if Lily and Petunia's parents (i.e., Harry and Dudley's grandparents) were magic-folk. This seems unlikely since (as stated before), Harry is suppose to be a half-blood and would not be a half- blood if Lily's parents were magic-folk (he would be a pure-blood). Sooooooooooooo, since Lily and Petunia's parents were muggles, then the only way Dudley can be a half-blood is if Vernon is a pureblood or if he at least had magic-folk parents and is a wizard himself (highly unlikely). Ergo, Dudley cannot be a half-blood and is, in my opinion, an unlikely pick for half blood prince (if that means what we think it means). Does this make sense? Jake From jasonjacqui at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 04:24:55 2004 From: jasonjacqui at yahoo.com (Jacqui) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 04:24:55 -0000 Subject: Royalty in WW after all? In-Reply-To: <20040712030122.65327.qmail@web25110.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105940 > Lee: > > I am going out on a limb here and on memory but this could be something. Correct me if I am wrong but Andromeda married a muggle, or half blood, which is Ted Tonks and their daughter was Nymphadora (The Tonks) and we all know that the Blacks thought being Black practically made you to be like Royalty. So maybe it could be Tonks. And she has already shown to be closer to the younger people than the others. not to mention that she can change her appearance at will. I am going to read the book more in detail and see if there is something to go on here > > > > Lee, who is about to go to bed reading the relevent chapters Yes Andromeda did marry Ted Tonks, and we know nothing about him. I dont think it would be Tonks, because of the obvious girl reason...but then I guess you never know. I am really curious if she has any siblings... Jacqui From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 04:27:00 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 04:27:00 -0000 Subject: Royal Albert Hall Appearance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105942 vmonte: interesting JKR quotes Royal Albert Hall Appearance June 26 2003 JKR: I get asked the question if I'm ever going to write a book about H when he's grown up quite a lot and I always say that you have to wait and see whether he survives to be a grown up SF: That's a frightening thought JKR: Sorry SF: Isn't it? JKR: Well I'm not saying he won't um but I don't want to give anything away at this point vmonte: Maybe Harry isn't going to die... ____________________________________________________________________ JKR: Dumbledore, um, I don't want to say too much on this because you may find that it gives too much away but Dumbledore is a very wise man who firstly knows that Harry is going to have to learn a few hard lessons to prepare him for what may be coming in his life so he allows Harry to do an awful lot of things he maybe wouldn't allow another pupil to do and he also unwillingly permits Harry to confront a lot of things rather than protect him from but as people who have finished Order of the Phoenix will know Dumbledore has had to step back a little bit from Harry in an effort to teach him some of life's harder lessons. SF: You have to push your beloved chickens out of the nest JKR: You do vmonte: DD training Harry?! More canon for SSSusan's theory about Harry in SS/PS. _________________________________________________________________ JKR: No I didn't. I will say this I had to put in some things because of what's coming in 6 and 7 and I didn't want anyone to say to me "what a cheat you never gave us clues". Because if I didn't mention certain things that happen in Order of the Phoenix I think you could have said to me "well you sprang that on us" whereas I want you to be able to get them if you've got your wits about you. There are a few surprises coming. JKR: I do, I will say I think he has the hardest time in this book. Because although there are some scary things coming for Harry in this book know one believes him and also he's a teenager and to have those two burdens in life at once is quite horrible But from know on at least everyone knows he's been telling the truth so whatever he has to face he doesn't also have to deal with everyone being quite so distrustful of him. vmonte: Clues? Anyone? From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Jul 13 04:28:45 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 04:28:45 -0000 Subject: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105943 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > Pippin wrote previously: > > > It's also perfectly consistent with a Dumbledore who believes in letting people make up their own minds and would rather have people disagree with him and be wrong, than agree only because he's Albus Dumbledore and he said so. > > > > > > Dzeytoun: > > > This, however, raises problems when compared to JKR's statement about Dumbledore "is goodness." I'm sorry, but standing back and watching somebody else bully and emotionally torment kids just because you would "rather them disagree and be wrong than agree just because I said so" isn't goodness to me, and I'm willing to bet real money it isn't goodness to most other people. > > > > > Alla: > What can I say? I would say that it is at least consistent > with 'teaching students how to deal with nasty people" routine. If Harry and Neville were showing some sign that they were suffering "emotional torment " from Snape, I agree Dumbledore would have to intervene. But they aren't. Dumbledore doesn't know that he is goodness, so he can't *know* that his values are superior to Snape's, though he doubtless believes they are. In the absence of empirical evidence that Snape's teaching methods are causing harm, what right has Dumbledore got to experiment on the students by demanding that the teachers abandon what are, in the WW, accepted ways of teaching? I understand you are saying that Snape is wrong on principle. The trouble is, the wizarding world doesn't recognize that principle. For Dumbledore to impose his personal values on an employee who is not in a position to disagree with him is also an abuse of power. In a society that is threatened by Voldemort, blind obedience to authority is not a trait I would encourage. Pippin From srobles at caribe.net Tue Jul 13 04:39:43 2004 From: srobles at caribe.net (anasazi_pr) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 04:39:43 -0000 Subject: Krum's Role (was SHIP Luna Was Re:Hermione's Reaction to...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105944 Jim Ferer wrote: > I'm H/Hr as well, and Luna is an unknown. We just don't know much at > all. I have to say I find Luna's serene, slightly eccentric > spirituality intriguing, and good for Harry, but it's way short of > enough for a romance. > > In a strictly plot analytical way, you could argue it's more likely > that Luna is there for Ron, not Harry. After all, JKR didn't need to > introduce a new character to be Harry's love interest when she already > had Ginny at hand. But I prefer to treat the characters as real, not > plot elements. Trying to analyze the plot that way can really lead to > error. > > And we all have to figure out where Viktor fits in. I think the only one that has the answer to the question "who does Hermione love" right now is Viktor Krum. If we go back to GoF, we clearly see that Krum was "jealous" of the H/Hr relationship, even going as far as confronting Harry to see what was between him and Hermione. Although Harry quickly denied anything was going on between them. We know that at the end of the year, Harry sees Hermione and Krum talking on the King Cross station. We are never informed what they talked about. I believe that either Krum confronted Hermione about her feelings for her best friend (much like he did with Harry), or simply asked her outright if she fancied him. IMO, there are only 4 possible answers Hermione might have given: a) Hermione confesses she loves Harry (maybe the kiss at the end of GoF was prompted by that) b) Hermione confesses she loves Ron. c) Hermione reassures Krum she fancies him. d) Hermione has never given it a single thought, but is forced to start thinking about it after whatever it was that Krum said. Krum is a very good guy, and I believe he would have no trouble being Hermione's pen pal, even if they weren't involved in a relationship. What if, since Krum might be the only one that knows her *secret*, he's the only person she can go to for relationship advice (after all, he's 4 years older)? JKR has said that Krum has a small role in future books. What if she uses Krum as a tool to answer the Hermione enigma? Just a thought, Anasazi -who thinks Krum is just the sweetest bulgarian pumpkin in GoF From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Jul 13 04:36:23 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 04:36:23 -0000 Subject: Why Sirius was Chosen as Godparent & Sirius' sacrifice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105945 Kate: > > First of all JKR NEver said sirius had to die. she said Sirius had > to fall through the veil. We haven't seen the last of Mr. black. if > you go to her site Jkrowling.net with in the rumours section or the > faq she discusses Harry not using the mirror to see if Sirius was > safe and that even if harry had it wouldn't have made a difference. > she also makes allusions to the fact that it is very important for > harry to have that mirror in books six and seven. but the point, JKR > never said sirius was dead. she ducks the topic by saying things > like, I had to let him go. or He was becoming to influential on > Harry. She's very good and NOT saying he's dead. Sue: > From the World Book Day chat March 4, 2004: > > Why did you kill Sirius? It made me very sad :( > JK Rowling replies -> I'm really, really sorry. I didn't want to do > it, but there was a reason. If you think you can forgive me, keep > reading, you'll find out. [I feel really guilty now]. > > She does not deny killing Sirius, she only apologizes for it. All of > the characters we have come to rely on as the truth tellers (DD in > particular) have said Sirius is dead. That does not mean, however, > he is gone forever, just that he is dead. This is the wizarding > world after all. Jen: And another quote, on the day before OOTP was released: Paxman: "And there's going to be a death in this book?" JKR: "Yeah. Well I had re-written the death, re-written it and that was it. It was definitive. And the person was definitely dead. And I walked into the kitchen crying and Neil said to me, "What on earth is wrong?" and I said, "Well, I've just killed the person". BBC News June 2003. Personally, I don't think the question is whether Sirius is dead or not. The question is whether his death has any special meaning. The way he died was sudden, unexpected, & not very dramatic, but in the World Book Day chat, JKR seemed to be saying there was a reason Sirius died. Also, Kate, did JKR really say Sirius was becoming 'too influential' or is that a fan idea? That one's new to me. Jen Reese From mayeaux45 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 05:00:26 2004 From: mayeaux45 at yahoo.com (mayeaux45) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 05:00:26 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Hermione's Reaction to... In-Reply-To: <001801c46886$c0a98ce0$6901a8c0@brmkam> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105946 "mayeaux45": > > PHEW! Can we get some well needed > > sympathy for Harry too or should I write more? IMO, Hermione is > > the ONLY one thus far, that has shown unwavering solidarity and > > loyalty towards Harry! That speaks volumes...once again IMO! Lady Kate wrote: > What about Luna Lovegood? Colin Creevy? Neville Longbottom? > Ginny Weasley? Hagrid? Kate, maybe I didn't make my self clear as to why I spoke of Hermione as the only one showing 100% solidarity and loyalty from books 1-5 thus far. Yes, you make a good point in mentioning the people above, but I'm referring to those people who are with Harry at almost every crucial moment (or "adventure")...Ron and Hermione. You could very well include Dumbledore in that as well, since he knows just about everything that happens to Harry. I'm just talking about those real "go-to" people that Harry *depends* on in a way to get through some of the hard times in his life. And out of the three I mentioned...Hermione is the only one that has NEVER wavered and has always given Harry what he ultimately needed (forgetting the consequences). Unlike Dumbledore who kept information from Harry that would have helped considerably in OotP! And I already mentioned Ron's default in GoF. I can't imagine how much that hurt Harry. Thank goodness for Hermione! Mayeaux45, who hopes people will look at the different aspects of R/Hr/H and not get too upset at things posted! ;) From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Tue Jul 13 05:13:44 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 13 Jul 2004 05:13:44 -0000 Subject: Shack and Sorting Message-ID: <20040713051344.9673.qmail@webmail7.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105947 - Kizor - I can't see any such line in my copy of PS, though my look wasn't - conclusive. Amey: Hi, sorry for making you go through the book, that dialog was total imagination on my part :D - Kneasy: - Not I. He's shown too much fallibility to be omniscient and omnipotent. - Quirrell, Tom's Diary, the Basilisk, Crouch!Moody, the failure of the - Occlumency lessons, the inability to control or neutralise Umbridge; - the list is long and totally unbelievable for someone omniscient and - omnipotent. Amey: Just one thought here. The fallings of great people are also great. - Neri: - I think Snape in the Shack thought he is saving Harry's life from - Sirius, and thus his account with James is settled, and he is finally - free to trash James to his heart content. - That's another reason why he wouldn't even consider the possibility - that Sirius is innocent. If Sirius is innocent, then he (Snape) is - not saving Harry's life. Amey: But what about him saving Harry?s life in PS/SS when Quirell was trying to hex him. Snape would surely take the debt as settled then. (which in my opinion he did). He couldn?t abandon Harry, also he had chance to get revenge on two of his worst enemies. And one more thought, didn?t he remind Harry that they were out of beds, out of school premises, and with a convicted murderer. I am sure, if possible he would have tried to get Harry expelled there and then, if it was possible. (Wonder if Dumbledore used similar words to make him shut up about Lupin as an added incentive on top of reminding him about the *bond* created between him and James.) - Arya - So I - say Ron was chosen for his loyalty to Harry. Amey: Don?t you think that is odd even considering that we are talking about Harry who is so much important? I mean, is loyalty to a particular student a suitable thing for a prefect? I am not saying that this was not a point. I am saying this might be an afterthought, an added advantage. - - vivian - It was during OOTP that Voldemort became aware of his connection to - Harry. Remember when Harry felt like a snake was rising inside of - himself? When he wanted to attack DD? I think that this is the - reason why DD needed to keep himself away from Harry. Amey: Yes, I agree here. LV would have thought it as a Win-Win situation. Either Harry would have harmed or killed Dumbledore, or Dumbledore would have been forced to kill or harm Harry (the one with powers to vanquish the Dark Lord). All in all, LV wins both ways. What I am thinking is, why didn?t he try this earlier? Why was he so focused on getting the prophesy before? Did he consider that *he* had to kill Harry for prophesy to be fulfilled? Also, now that the prophesy is lost, will we see more scenes like when LV took over Harry?s body in MoM? Won?t this take Dumbledore further away from Harry now? - happybean98: - - I'd have to agree with you somewhat here, a leaflet would be nice, - but I still say that if Harry knew nothing about the WW, let alone - Hogwarts until a day or so before he was sorted, and he still managed - to figure out where he wanted to be, why couldn't anyone else? Amey: Harry didn?t choose to be in Gryffindor, he chose not to be in Slytherin. He heard from Hagrid and Ron about the reputation of Slytherin, also heard Draco saying he wanted to be there, and his dislike for Draco would have also contributed something there. It was Hat?s choice to put him in Gryffindor out of three remaining houses. Amey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 13 05:35:54 2004 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 05:35:54 -0000 Subject: Ron as prefect? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105948 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mcmaxslb" wrote: > Ron became a prefect only because Dumbledore didn't want to give it > to Harry, not because Dumbledore thought Ron would make a good > prefect. And this was one of the mistakes that he admits to at the > end of OotP. McMax. DD did the right thing in giving Ron a chance to grow away from Harry's shadow using a fairly manageable task - supervising first years' at breaks, hanging Christmas decorations, etc. - that also carries a lot of status and prestige - just what Ron needed. Suppose Harry had been given the badge. Can you picture him trying to gather the first years after the first night's reception? Remember his image in the WW at the time as a dangerous and unbalanced liar. The first years were *terrified* of him. And he was emotionally at the breaking point for the first few weeks at Hogwarts - witness his outbursts with his friends, later on with Seamus, Umbridge, etc. He needed the time to learn and deal with his emotions and putting him in a supervisory position just then would have been a mistake. He did really well as the DA teacher, but that happened later with hand selected students who came to him because they believed and respected him enough to overcome their concerns and the bad publicity. This would not have been the case with the prefect position. There he'd have to deal with all the prejudice against him on a daily basis. Incidentally I think the right person for the prefect position was Neville. He has as much if not more moral integrity than Ron and would have taken his responsibility as prefect a lot more seriously than Ron did, but then DD wanted to give Ron a hand at reaching his most cherished ambition (seen in the Mirror of Erised incident) and also Ron was a better student than Neville after all. Salit From eeyore6771 at comcast.net Tue Jul 13 05:48:48 2004 From: eeyore6771 at comcast.net (Pat) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 05:48:48 -0000 Subject: Three People in the Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105949 David wrote: > > What if there are three people referred to in the prophecy? On > > her website, JKR says she worded the prophecy "extremely carefully." > > > > What if: > > The one = Harry Potter > > The Dark Lord = Lord Voldemort > > The other = Neville Longbottom > > Becki wrote: > I just finished the OoP on CD (again), and if Neville was any part > of that prophecy, his name should have been on the sphere at the > Department of Mysteries. Only LV and Harry's name were there. I > suppose it could be a mistake on Jo's part if she is trying to > trick us but Dumbledore is pretty up & up, so I tend to believe him. Eeyore's thought: Dumbledore does say that the original label on the prophecy didn't name Harry or Neville, only Voldemort, because the information was incomplete. QUOTE: Dumbledore says: "The official record was relabeled after Voldemort's attack on you as a child. It seemed plain to the keeper of the Hall of Prophecy that Voldemort could only have tried to kill you because he knew you to be the one to whom Sibyll was referring." Dumbledore goes on to say that there is no doubt the prophecy IS referring to Harry, because Voldemort marked him as equal. The other part of the prophecy is that the one who can defeat Voldemort has powers that the "Dark Lord knows not". Dumbledore then tells Harry that he has this particular power that is in the Dept. of Mysteries and that Voldemort has none of it. This could still be in line with your theory, David. Neville was also drawn into trying to rescue Sirius, and showed that he has a courage and determination that we hadn't seen in him previously. He is loyal and willing to risk everything to save Sirius, even though he doesn't know him. That kind of compassion may be something that both boys have. So perhaps it will be Neville (the OTHER) who is the one who sacrifices himself to defeat Voldemort. I still think that Harry (since the books bear his name) has to play a major role in Voldemort's demise, but now that you have pointed out the possibility that the phrase "the other" could refer to a third person, I do wonder at Neville's importance. It has always seemed significant to me that Neville was the only one of the kids who is still trying to fight with Harry during the battle. eeyore From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 13 06:18:17 2004 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 06:18:17 -0000 Subject: Deus Ex Machina/Plot Devices (was: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105950 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sevenhundredandthirteen" wrote: > From the treatment of the car, I > get the impression that it didn't just coincidentally stumble > across a certain part of the forest, but was actively trying > to save Ron and Harry. Grawp, on the other hand just turned > up by chance. And all he did was make a distraction, rather > than a choice. > > This is the reason why I was unsatisfied with Grawp- his > presence was enough to cause the centaurs to attack, and > that was just chance. Whereas the Ford Anglia had to appear, > and then get them out, which it appeared to do by an active > choice. I disagree. The conflict between Grawp and the centaurs is hinted at since the reappearance of Firenze. Grawp was the first chip in Hagrid's good relationship with the centaurs. It came to a head because of Hagrid's rescuing Firenze later on, but note that almost the first thing Firenze says to Harry is pass a message to Hagrid to warn him about Grawp. Later when Hagrid meets the centaurs in company with Harry and Hermione, the subject of Grawp is raised again by the centaurs. I am sure that has not been the first time, and we know that Grawp understands a lot more than he lets on. Perhaps Hagrid tried to have the centaurs (the only forest creatures who can speak) teach him English? I wouldn't put that past him... :-) Grawp did not wonder there by chance when Harry and Hermione were attacked by the centaurs. He heard the commotion (50 angry centaurs make a lot of noise) and came to see what was going on. If he happened to be near enough, he may have heard Harry and Hermione, and followed them to ask about Hagrid. If there is a part that I felt was handled lamely it is the thestrals. JKR explanations about why Harry could suddenly see them are unsatisfactory. They can be seen only by someone who has actually seen someone die, but not right away - they have to absorbe the death first? Not convincing. Anyway, Harry did not see Cedric die - his eyes were closed when it happened, so he should not have been able to see them at all. I think the thestrals were a very cool creature (unlike the boring flobberworms or skrewts), but their introduction could have been done better. Salit From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 06:26:48 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 06:26:48 -0000 Subject: Ron as prefect? JKR's Big Mistake -Interview In-Reply-To: <40F3C222.17343.952A71@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105951 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" wrote: > > ...edited... > > OK - JKR, does *not* say Ron isn't the best prefect. From the FAQ. > > (From JKR Interview/webChat) > > Question: "Can prefects take points or not? A prefect took points > from Gryffindor in the Chamber of Secrets, and then there was a > reference to prefects not being allowed to dock points. What are > the rules? > > Answer: Ron got it wrong in 'Phoenix', from which we deduce that he > hasn't been a very authoritarian prefect thus far; he clearly hasn't > been taking points from anybody." > > Shaun Asian_lovr2: This quote has been mentioned several times in various thread, and I have been waiting for someone to challenge it, but it's never come, or at least not that I've seen. So now I take up the torch. This is a perfect example of why Interviews and Chats should be consider /canon-ish/ rather than absolute canon. Why? Because in spontaneous conversation even the best of us make mistakes. I was NOT Ron who said Prefects couldn't take points, it was Ernie. --- Quote - OotP - Am Ed Hb pg 625-626 --- 'Afraid I'm going to have to dock a few points from Gryffindor and Hufflepuff,' he (Draco) drawled. 'It's only teachers who can dock points from Houses, Malfoy,' said Ernie at once.[<---ERNIE!] 'Yeah, we're prefects, too, remember?' snarled Ron. 'I know prefects can't dock points, Weasel King,' sneered Malfoy. Crabbe and Goyle sniggered. 'But members of the Inquisitorial Squad -' [note: Ernie says Prefects can't and Draco confirms it.] `The what?' said Hermione sharply. [note: Hermione does not contradict Draco on the issue of Prefect taking points.] 'The Inquisitorial Squad, Granger,' said Malfoy, pointing towards a tiny silver 'I' on his robes just beneath his prefect's badge. '...edited... Draco docking specific points....'. Ron pulled out his wand, but Hermione pushed it away, whispering, 'Don't!' 'Wise move, Granger,' breathed Malfoy. 'New Head, new times be good now, Potty Weasel King ' Laughing heartily, he strode away with Crabbe and Goyle. 'He was bluffing,' said Ernie, looking appalled. 'He can't be allowed to dock points... that would be ridiculous... it would completely undermine the prefect system.' [Again, Ernie confirms that Prefects can't take points.] - - - End quote - - - If this is a mistake, then it is a mistake by more than one Prefect. As far as Ron never stepping up an exerting his authority, we don't know what he did while monitoring the hallways of the school or the train. But we do have this one incident. ---Quote - OotP Am Ed HB - pg 441 --- ...so they remained grudgingly in the common room, trying to ignore the gleeful shouts drifting up from the grounds outside, where students were enjoying themselves skating on the frozen lake, tobogganing and, worst of all, bewitching snowballs to zoom up to Gryffindor Tower and rap hard on the windows. 'Oi!' bellowed Ron, finally losing patience and sticking his head out of the window, 'I am a prefect and if one more snowball hits this window - OUCH!' He withdrew his head sharply, his face covered in snow. 'It's Fred and George,' he said bitterly, slamming the window behind him. 'Gits...' - - - End Quote - - - So, it seems when pushed to it, Ron can and will exert his authority, just not against Fred and George. But then, that would be difficult for any younger brother to do, especially knowing the eventually it's going to be summer holiday at which time it will be very difficult to escape Fred & George's retribution. As a side note on the subject of Ron with regard to Fred and George, I think Ron is very much motivated by not being Percy, because if he does even the smallest thing that resembles Percy and/or goes against Fred and George, he fears he will be completely alienated. If Fred and George treat Ron as they treat Percy then Ron is in for a whole heap of misery, and he will do anything to avoid that. Now that Fred and George are gone, Ron can start concentrating on being Ron, rather than being 'not Percy'. As a side-side note, I think Ron and Percy are a lot more alike, deep down, than either of them would ever dare admit. Just a thought. Steve/asian_lovr2 From dzeytoun at cox.net Tue Jul 13 06:41:16 2004 From: dzeytoun at cox.net (dzeytoun) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 06:41:16 -0000 Subject: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105953 Pippin: > If Harry and Neville were showing some sign that they were > suffering "emotional torment " from Snape, I agree Dumbledore > would have to intervene. But they aren't. Dumbledore doesn't > know that he is goodness, so he can't *know* that his values are > superior to Snape's, though he doubtless believes they are. > > In the absence of empirical evidence that Snape's teaching > methods are causing harm, what right has Dumbledore got to > experiment on the students by demanding that the teachers > abandon what are, in the WW, accepted ways of teaching? > The right of someone who believes strongly in their principles and is willing to stand up for them. Power is there to be used in what one believes to be a moral way. If Dumbledore does indeed believe Snape to be in the wrong, standing by on the basis the "everyone else agrees with him" isn't very admirable. And he has shown himself to be more than willing to impose his will on people for the "greater good" in other contexts (i.e. leaving Harry with the Dursleys). Does the wizarding world favor Snape's teaching methods? We only have evidence of ommission, that is that no one complains that we know of. I would be more convinced if we saw people, even Slytherin parents, actively praising Snape's methods. Then I would be willing to believe that Dumbledore faces a political block (for instance on the Board of Governors) he might not be able to openly defy. As for the point about empirical evidence, the test of this will be how Dumbledore acts or reacts in the next two books. I think the disaster of Occlumency provides plentiful evidence that Snape's teaching methods have resulted in a very unfortunate and dangerous situation. Granted Harry is to blame for looking in the pensieve. But Snape's methods and attitude set the stage for the train-wreck that Harry's action put in motion. Not only did the failure of Occlumency result in the disaster at the MoM, it now leaves us in a situation where arguably the two most important members of Dumbledore's coalition despise one another with something that, on Harry's side at least, approaches glacial hatred. Dzeytoun From patientx3 at aol.com Tue Jul 13 07:13:06 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 07:13:06 -0000 Subject: Severus Snape's character In-Reply-To: <1e9.24d386e8.2e238491@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105954 Julie wrote: >>3. Why does Dumbledore let someone like Snape teach? I think Dumbledore lets Snape teach because Snape is in fact *teaching* the students something. Not only is he competently teaching them Potions, but he is also teaching them about the real (i.e. Wizarding) world. Yes, Snape is mean, even occasionally mildly abusive, and Dumbledore does call him on it when necessary. But it's a life lesson. If students can't handle Snape's vitriol, especially certain students like Harry and Neville who will likely be crucial in saving the WW, how will they ever stand up to Voldemort?<< HunterGreen: Although that is an important lesson to learn, I don't think that's why he permits Snape to act the way he does. Its just the way Snape is. I believe he hired Snape because he is a very compentent potions maker, he respects Snape, and perhaps wanted to both keep Snape busy and keep him close at hand in case he needed him. The fact that Snape is unpleasant is just part of the deal. Dumbledore strikes me as a rather indulgent person. You could also ask why Hagrid? Why Profressor Binns? Why Lockhart? I think one of the last things Dumbledore would do is interfere with a teacher's style. If he asked Snape to be less unpleasant, it might undermine his teaching method. Assuming Snape actually complied (which I doubt he would, he would quit first), he doesn't know how to be any different. He could go from being too strict to being too lax and suddenly a kid could get poisoned from a faulty potion. Would another teacher be able to get the seriousness of potion-making across without being so cruel about it? Perhaps. But if Snape tried it he'd most likely fail. >>BTW, I don't think for a minute there is some good cop/bad cop thing going on here. Snape is simply Snape, and I don't believe he is *acting* at all. He despises Harry, both because of his father, and because of Harry's own actions and attitude.<< And is that really so hard for people to believe? I am baffled each time I hear one of these "he's playing it up for the DE's children" or "he's trying to toughen Harry up" theories. Why can't it just be what it is? He doesn't like Harry, and he doesn't care about hiding it. The end. BTW, Harry didn't need to be 'toughened up' at the age of eleven. He had already gone through worse than a mean potions professor. And Dumbledore was very aware of that. >>4. Snape's Boggart and Patronus? I don't really have a clue! I do think Snape has both though. I am wondering if his Boggart might be whatever drove him from Voldemort's side. Something he was nearly forced to do, but realized he couldn't go through with? Or, something he did, and then regretted enough to leave? As for his Patronus, Snape has to have at least one happy memory (I hope). It will be pretty fascinating to see what it is. (Though I can't quite wrap my mind around the image of a smiling Snape!)<< I tend to agree that Snape wouldn't be able to think of something happy enough to produce a patronus. He'd probably be able to do a non- corporial one though, I can't imagine Helpless!Snape surrounded by dementers. As for the boggart, when he was young (as someone else suggested), perhaps it was failure, like Hermione. Now its bound to be something else...but I can't really put my finger on something visual. I can see him being afraid of being found out by the other DEs and Voldemort as a spy, but how would that be represented? From yswahl at stis.net Tue Jul 13 07:44:56 2004 From: yswahl at stis.net (samnanya) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 07:44:56 -0000 Subject: The Trichotomy-Prophecy -- the answer -- the end ...... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105955 Pat What if there are three people referred to in the prophecy? On her website, JKR says she worded the prophecy "extremely carefully." What if: The one = Harry Potter The Dark Lord = Lord Voldemort The other = Neville Longbottom Samnanya I have posted on this extensively and constantly several months ago with minimal interest by the group until now. IMO Dumbledore's comments in the awards banquet in Sorcerors Stone contain THE vital clue as to how the series ends. It was not an accident that Dumbledore praises Neville the highest by saving him for last for praise and giving him the 10 points for his ability to Stand Up to His Friends that secured the House Cup for Gryffindor during the first year. On first reading, the trio got far more points for seemingly far more difficult tasks, yet Neville was saved for last. In fact it was Nevilles points that secured the victory in Dumbledore's eyes - not HRH. Why did DD do that? What was his message? What clue did JKR leave us ? The clue that solves it all............... Now to the prophecy. What I think happens in the end is that Harry confronts LV and defeats him bodily, but in the process the non-corporeal LV takes over Harry's body as he did briefly in OOP. HarryMort then raises holy hell all over the wizarding world becasue noone can bring themselves to kill him ----- until Neville "stands up to his friend" and defeats Voldemort by defeating HarryMort in the final battle. Neville stood up to Harry once before in an event that was all but forgotten, until Dumbledore pointed it out, and then was promptly forgotten again! But like all hidden clues, Neville's ability will save the the Wizarding World in Book 7, when he is able to stand up to HarryMort WHEN NOONE ELSE CAN. Even Dumbledore admits he has a weak spot when dealing with Harry and his faiures in that area are the few we are privy to. So mark my words, Neville will be VERY important in the prophecy, and indeed, the question mark on the orb was not there accidentally either. NOw for the end of the series.......... Whether Harry dies or Neville dies while freeing Harry from the occupancy of the Dark Lord is impossible to determine at this point, but I am certain that one of them dies and the other ends up with Hermione and lives happily ever after. Arguments for Harry dying - SPOILER FOR THE LITTLE WHITE HORSE by ELIZABETH GOUDGE DO NOT READ NEXT SECTION IF YOU WANT TO ENJOY THAT BOOK ! !! !!! !! ! The death of Harry would correspond to the "disappeareance" of the Little White Horse that Marie, the young heroine, longs for even as she lives happily ever after at the end of the book -- the Little White Horse also might [naah, probably does...]correspond to Harry's stag petronus .... just as Marie would correspond to Hermione and indirectly JKR - after all it was one of her favorite books-- In other words, at the end of the book The Little White Horse is gone and so might be Harry .... ! !! !!! !! ! Hermione met Neville before she met Harry and helped him search for Trevor. Once she met Harry their friendship started to bloom and though she cared for Neville, she clearly fancied Harry more. If you believe in the cycle theory, then Neville "gets her back again" after Harry is gone, though she will remember Harry forever even as she is with Neville. Before you pooh-pooh this, at least try to get ahold of the Little White Horse by Elizabeth Goudge and read the last chapter if you cant stomach the whole book. Once again, it is not an accident that this book appears on jkr's bookshelf on her website, and I firmly believe that you cannot guess how this series ends without having at least skimmed that book and read the last chapter in detail. So ..... in the end of the series .... 1 - either Harry or Neville die, and 2 - Hermione ends up with the survivor. and if you disagree with this, please either come up with a better ending or, if you have read TLWH or other book you think might have influenced jkr, plow through my logic [or lack thereof] and rip it to shreds just like Evil!Lupin would {just kidding...) From patientx3 at aol.com Tue Jul 13 08:25:24 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 08:25:24 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat doesn't sort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105956 Cathy wrote: >>> However, in OotP it says "'Well, the Sorting Hat did seriously consider putting me in Ravenclaw during my Sorting,' said Hermione brightly, 'but it decided on Gryffindor in the end." The Sorting had considered and then decided. <<< happybean98 responded: >> Yes, that's what Hermione says, because she,(and all the other students), believe that's what the Sorting Hat does. (Happybean suddenly realizes she is starting to sound like Luna Lovegood). But what Hermione doesn't realize is that SHE, not the hat, is the one "seriously considering Ravenclaw". Everyone projects their own thought processes onto the Sorting Hat because they don't realize it's reading their own mind. << HunterGreen: Then why wasn't she put in Ravenclaw? I see nothing to indicate that pre-Hogwarts Hermione was particularily interested in anything other than books and cleverness. I can't see why a house known specifically for bravery would interest her that much. This is precisely why the hat works better than the kids choosing their own house. Being put in Gryffindor forced Hermione to become friends with other Gryffindors and thus opened that part of herself that *was* brave. Had she been put in Ravenclaw she would have been friends with other studious students like herself, and that part of her may have remained dormant- -and completely unused. She fits in the house, but it wasn't obvious to her or anyone else at the time. Another example is Neville. I really can't see him, being as insecure as he is, wanting to be in Gryffindor. He is quite brave and does indeed *belong* in Gryffindor, but he would probably want Hufflepuff because its a lot less pressure. But the house put him in Gryffindor, which, like Hermione, had the effect of bringing out that stronger side of him. He may have done fine in Hufflepuff, but it wouldn't be his full potential. happybean98: >> If Harry, who knew absolutely nothing about the WW, let alone Hogwarts until a few days before he was sorted, decided where he wanted to be, why couldn't anyone else? Thanks to the Dursleys, he was the most ignorant of anyone, even Muggle borns, and he still quickly chose Ron over Draco as a friend, even though he met Draco first. << Harry was lucky. How many people meet their best friend on the *first* day of school? Heck, this wasn't even the first day, this was the day before. Rather lucky, eh? (especially considering that Ron is the first person Harry is ever friends with). I'm not saying its unbelievable, just probably not the case for other kids. For example, who was Hermione riding with on the train? It could have been other muggle-borns, or other future Ravenclaws, or just random students. BUT, she may have struck up a conversation with them, and if she became causual friends by the end of the trip and liked the house they were going in, does that make it the right house? If she knew nothing of the other houses, she might choose that one just because of the way the others talked about it. Harry only disliked Draco because he happened to remind him of Dudley. Had the Dursley's lavished as much material things on Harry as they did on Dudley, Harry might have seen Draco in a different light, and thus seen Slytherin in a different light. Then Harry would have been in Slytherin, where he doesn't belong. Before the hat the four founders decided themselves which students they wanted to teach, they didn't leave it up to students to decide. Why would they want just any kid who happened to "like" their house (or think they like it), to be sorted there? The point of the hat is to reflect what the founders would do if they were still around, its not just a way to quarter all the students. -Rebecca From paul_terzis at yahoo.gr Tue Jul 13 08:40:03 2004 From: paul_terzis at yahoo.gr (paul_terzis) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 08:40:03 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105957 > delwynmarch wrote: > > Hermione wasn't issued to Ron, agreed, but neither was she issued to > > Harry. What I meant was that Ron is always second-best to Harry : > > Harry's got the money, the fame (even if he doesn't want it), the > > talent, the better looks, and he was supposed to get the Prefect > > badge. But Ron doesn't care most of the time, because he's such a > > loyal friend. However, I think he *would* care very much if Harry > > started dating Hermione. He would hurt a lot and I feel it wouldn't > > be fair on JKR's part to put Ron through *that*. > > Anasazi wrote: > Ouch. This actually made me cringe. Ron is always second best to > Harry? Well, it seems to me Ron has much more of what really counts > than Harry. > > True, Ron is poor... but he happens to have a good home where the > people that live there love him (and we all know that, even with all > the teasing, the twins love their little bro). He has a mother and a > father who love him. He has no money, but I doubt he's ever gone > hungry to bed. He may not be the brightest boy when it comes to > school (neither is Harry - the position belongs solely to Draco), but > he has shown he's a good strategist. He's now able to play his > beloved Quidditch, and is enjoying the fame and attention that came > with it. > > Now, let's compare what Ron has with Harry... Harry is an orphan, > both parents murdered by a powerhungry sociopath when he was only one > year old. Forced to live for 10 years with an abusive family that > regarded him as less valuable than the poo I stepped on last night > (and that's pretty low my friend). I mean, we can consider that Ron's > self-esteem might be a bit low due to the constant comparison with > his succesful older brothers... but what about Harry, who lived for > those 10 years in the shadow of Dudley? > > Then he finds he's a wizard and that he has money. Pity that is blood > money since he only inherited because his parents are dead. Then in > Hogwarts, he is thrown in the limelight of fame in a way he comes to > despise (how many people want to have lies written about them in the > media, raise their hands), finds out that the murdering sociopath is > still out there, waiting to come back to his full power, in order to > finish what they started that night in Godric's Hollow (Re: Death). > > He's been close to death not once, not twice, but six times, and has > witnessed the people he cares about almost losing their lives because > of their relationship with him. He has gained, and LOST, the closest > thing he had to a paternal figure (Sirius). And now, he has that > godforsaken prophecy hanging over his head. Talk about pressure! I > would have broken down a long time ago. > > So it seems to me that Harry was the one that drew the short straw > here. > Right to the point Anasazi! We read all the time about who gets the girl at the end and the endless debate about who is the best candidate (Ron or Harry?). There is neither a comparison here people nor a contest. We have from one side Ron a typical but nevertheless important and competent teenager. And we have also HP a strange hybrid between teenager and adult. Yes HP tries to live normal and sometimes he acts as a normal teenager, especially in dating matters. But he isn't normal anymore. He had lived any possible nightmarish experience and there is more to come till the end. Ron fought with valor and he is willing to stand with HP in this war. Nobody can deny that. But he can't understand the full extent of his decision. And that because he didn't see someone close to him dying. He didn't suffer overwhelming physical and emotional pain. He didn't face death or pure Evil. Only HP saw the raw face of war and cruelty and only he is destined to become murderer or a corpse. That's the story and that is where we must focus people. HP series is not mainly a teenage love story. It is the Odyssey of HP. Cheers, Paul From patientx3 at aol.com Tue Jul 13 09:38:24 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:38:24 -0000 Subject: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105958 Pippin wrote: > If Harry and Neville were showing some sign that they were > suffering "emotional torment " from Snape, I agree Dumbledore > would have to intervene. But they aren't. Dumbledore doesn't > know that he is goodness, so he can't *know* that his values are > superior to Snape's, though he doubtless believes they are. > > In the absence of empirical evidence that Snape's teaching > methods are causing harm, what right has Dumbledore got to > experiment on the students by demanding that the teachers > abandon what are, in the WW, accepted ways of teaching? > dzeytoun responded: >> If Dumbledore does indeed believe Snape to be in the wrong, standing by on the basis the "everyone else agrees with him" isn't very admirable. << Just because Dumbledore may not be in love with Snape's teaching methods, doesn't mean that he believes Snape is necessarily 'in the wrong', just that he disagrees. The fact that 'everyone else agrees with him' just means that Dumbledore has no external reason why he should counsel Snape. >> And he has shown himself to be more than willing to impose his will on people for the "greater good" in other contexts (i.e. leaving Harry with the Dursleys). << But that was quite a different situation. In fact as dire as it comes, involving life and death. This is only hurt feelings in a potions class. As long as the children are still learning and none of them are getting *seriously* affected by his snide remarks there's no reason for Dumbledore to impose his will upon Snape. >>Does the wizarding world favor Snape's teaching methods? We only have evidence of ommission, that is that no one complains that we know of. I would be more convinced if we saw people, even Slytherin parents, actively praising Snape's methods. Then I would be willing to believe that Dumbledore faces a political block (for instance on the Board of Governors) he might not be able to openly defy.<< Lucious Malfoy is quite fond of him, and I doubt he would be if he thought Snape was doing a horrible job teaching his son. And Draco likes him quite a bit as well, even wanted him to be headmaster during CoS. Also, Umbridge points out how advanced the class is, and that's the only critisizm she can find. I know she's not the best judge of teaching methods, but she is a representative of the MoM. Actually, the fact that her classes are almost as snide as Snape's (and she would be the one who'd know about approved teaching methods), is an indication that Snape's methods are at least allowed, if not favored. >>I think the disaster of Occlumency provides plentiful evidence that Snape's teaching methods have resulted in a very unfortunate and dangerous situation.<< But was that Snape's fault or Harry's fault? Remember, Lupin used a similar teaching method when he taught Harry the patronus charm, he was just nicer about it. He told Harry the incantation, told him how to do it (focus on a happy memory), and let the boggart turn into the dementer over and over again until Harry was finally able to do it. Harry failed many times and got rather exhausted in the process. The occulmency lessons were similar: there was no incantation involved, so Snape told Harry how to do it (clearing your mind), and used legimency on Harry over and over again. Harry did fail many times, but half-suceeeded at least once (with the sheild charm), but then the fact that he wasn't really trying came into play. Is it just that Lupin is *nicer* that its assumed that it must be Snape's teaching method that failed? Because the method is the same (as is the way Harry learned to throw off the imperious curse....no one really taught him to do it, he just had it on him and learned by doing), its just that in the case of the protonus charm, Harry *wanted* to learn it. He didn't care half as much about occulmency, which, IMO, is *Dumbledore's* fault. Out of curiousity, what is it that you would like to see Dumbledore do with Snape? Fire him or force him to change his methods? Because if he fired him Dumbledore might be faced with the situation of not having another potions master to take his place (not to mention Snape would no longer be nearby if he needed him, something that has proved VERY useful in the past), and if he forced him to change his methods, Snape almost certainly refuse, and then be fired. -Rebecca From drednort at alphalink.com.au Tue Jul 13 09:55:22 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:55:22 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40F43E2A.32623.279BCEF@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 105959 On 13 Jul 2004 at 6:41, dzeytoun wrote: > Does the wizarding world favor Snape's teaching methods? We only > have evidence of ommission, that is that no one complains that we > know of. I would be more convinced if we saw people, even Slytherin > parents, actively praising Snape's methods. Then I would be willing > to believe that Dumbledore faces a political block (for instance on > the Board of Governors) he might not be able to openly defy. I hate to quote my own article, but this is the type of issue I wrote it for, so... My view, as I've said before is that Hogwarts fits neatly into the traditional British public school model. My reading and research posted the other day arrived at the following conclusions: "It is worth considering here, how Headmasters tended to make their decisions as to the appointment of staff members. Many readers might think it is obvious that certain Hogwarts teachers have had no formalized training as teachers. Historically speaking, this was quite common for public school teachers. Public school masters were regarded as professionals with knowledge based on a theoretical and esoteric knowledge within specific subject areas. Most public school teachers had no formalized teaching qualifications, instead relying on higher degrees (stereotypically a Master of Arts degree from Oxford or Cambridge) to prove they understood their subject (Walford, 1984, p.116). Large numbers of public school masters were themselves the product of public schools (Bamford, 1967, p.121) ? something that seems likely to be the case for Hogwarts, if for no other reason, than there does not appear to be any other opportunities for people to acquire the education they need to become qualified in their specialist subjects. Specific skills as a teacher, rather than mere knowledge of the subject being taught, were regarded as non-essential, though valuable if they were present. It was, more or less, assumed that pupils would learn if the teacher knew his subject." Now, my work is certainly challengeable on this - and for that matter, every other - point. However, I did research it, I did spend a considerable amount of time researching it. And as I've outlined, I think Hogwarts fits neatly into a certain model. And in that model, people often *did* favour Snape's teaching methods - or at the very least would have had no problem with them. Anyone is entitled to disagree with me on any point - in this case there seem to be two possible points of disagreement. (1) that Hogwarts does not fit this model. (2) that even if Hogwarts does fit the model, my conclusions on the likely attitudes to teachers and their skills and methods within such a model are inaccurate. But I think it's valid on both points (obviously) and I've done some work to demonstrate why. I'd be interested if you could outline *why* you think it's even likely enough that the methods are frowned upon for us to be seriously considering the possibility that they might be. You ask for evidence that the wizarding world favours Snape's methods - I suppose in my question is where is your evidence that it doesn't? Are you basing this merely on the way you personally think schools *should* be (which is, of course, a perfectly valid point of view on many levels) or do you really feel there's some specific reason to think such methods are at all likely to be frowned on in the wizarding world? We don't see active praise of Snape's methods - except maybe a rather lukewarm endorsement by Umbridge. But we also don't seem to see active criticism of such methods - except, again, some rather limited comments from dear, dear Dolores. In the absence of any praise or criticism, it seems to me that 'default position' is one of neutrality - that the safest assumption is that there's no general opinion one way or ther other. It's very tricky to make judgements in either direction. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 10:10:55 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:10:55 -0000 Subject: Ron as prefect? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105960 Arya wrote : > where do we see Ron ever applying any strategic skills outside of a > chessboard? The Fight at the DoM is a prime example of a situation > where someone with exceptional strategy skills would be very handy > and in their element. But who was it planning a way for the six kids > to take on and elude a dozen Death Eaters? It was Harry. Del replies : I don't see that there was any need for *strategy*. It was all very simple and straight-forward really at first : run for the door !! And by the time the kids all got reunited again and realised it was going to be more complicated than just making it straight for the door, Ron had been *conveniently* disabled. Del From editor at texas.net Tue Jul 13 10:29:12 2004 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 05:29:12 -0500 Subject: JKR should have checked the Lexicon, was Ron as prefect References: Message-ID: <000701c468c4$3e065e60$8d58aacf@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 105961 A quick note from a list L.O.O.N., because Ron is getting a bum rap here, and from JKR herself. Poor Ron. > Arya wrote: > Well, I might ageree with you, Del, if it weren't for JKR telling us > herself that Ron wasn't the best prefect and didn't even know by the > end of the year that prefects could dock points. (Referencing her > website's FAQ page.) I just don't see Ron having taken his > responsibilities very seriously - and you'd think for someone with > such ambitions as to be Head Boy one day, he might want to work a bit > for it. Taking points seems to be a pretty basic principle in the > duty of a prefect to enforce rules but, erm, Ron never even *knew* he > could or should do this. That doesn't make him look too stellar with > any spin you might put on it. You know, JKR should probably have nipped into an internet cafe and checked the book before she wrote that comment. Because in the book, it is not only Ron, but also Ernie MacMillan and Hermione having the conversation with Draco, where outrage and disbelief are expressed that Draco, prefect, is docking points. It was Ernie who said only teachers can dock points. It was Malfoy who agreed that prefects usually couldn't, but the Inquisitorial Squad could. Hermione says no word, and I refuse to believe that she wouldn't jump in if anyone had something that basic wrong; especially if one of the people who had it wrong was Malfoy. (OoP, US, 625-626) I consider, given what's in the book, that her comments on the website must be a Flint. Lexicon Steve--how will you treat conflicts between the text and the website? ~Amanda From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 10:56:11 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:56:11 -0000 Subject: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: <96773c88040712130629e571fa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105962 Laurasia wrote : > > Nobody remembers that Lupin shouldn't walk into the moonlight. James Lawlor answered : > I know I sure wouldn't have remembered. Everyone but Lupin and Snape > would probably have paid little attention to the phase of the moon > anyway, and they were the only two who knew Lupin had forgotten his > potion, Del replies : I don't have my PoA book with me, but I seem to remember that Snape explains that he went to Lupin's office to give him his potion that he had forgotten to take, and saw the Marauders' Map on Lupin's desk, and came to the Shack because of what he saw on it. So technically *everyone* knew that Lupin hadn't taken his potion. But I understand that with everything that was going on, this little piece of information might have slipped their attention until it was too late. Laurasia wrote : > > Dumbledore _isn't_ at Hogwarts for an extended period of time > > at the end of PS for so good reason (He can't apparate from the > > village? Must literally _fly_ yo London?). James answered : > I would think that the Anti-Apparation Barrier extends to Hogsmead as > well - indeed probably an area of 10 or 20 miles around Hogwarts. > There would be little point to the barrier if you could Apparate a > mile or two away and walk right in. That leaves only Portkeys (which > require authorization - and Dumbledore only disregards Ministry laws > when there is a great need or no other way). Del replies : Well no : there's also the Floo Network. We know that the fireplaces in Hogwarts are connected to it. DD could simply have Flooed to London on the morning of the next day, he did not *have* to fly to London overnight. Moreover, I disagree that the Anti-Apparition barrier could include Hogsmeade, because that would undermine the whole point of Hogsmeade being the only completely wizarding village in Britain. What's the point of wizards having a place where they can do whatever they want, if they can't even Apparate there ? And anyway, an evil wizard could always Floo in Hogsmeade and walk up to the castle, which would be just as dangerous as Apparating and walking up there. But otherwise, James, I quite agree with your arguments. And Laurasia, *great* post ! And I positively *loved* your other post about choices and breaking points !! Del From dzeytoun at cox.net Tue Jul 13 07:02:18 2004 From: dzeytoun at cox.net (dzeytoun) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 07:02:18 -0000 Subject: Royal Albert Hall Appearance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105963 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > vmonte: interesting JKR quotes > > Royal Albert Hall Appearance > > June 26 2003 > > JKR: I get asked the question if I'm ever going to write a book about > H when he's grown up quite a lot and I always say that you have to > wait and see whether he survives to be a grown up > > SF: That's a frightening thought > > JKR: Sorry > > SF: Isn't it? > > JKR: Well I'm not saying he won't um but I don't want to give > anything away at this point > > vmonte: Maybe Harry isn't going to die... Dzeyton: Yes, I think that is one of the main questions of the entire series. > ____________________________________________________________________ > > JKR: Dumbledore, um, I don't want to say too much on this because you > may find that it gives too much away but Dumbledore is a very wise > man who firstly knows that Harry is going to have to learn a few hard > lessons to prepare him for what may be coming in his life so he > allows Harry to do an awful lot of things he maybe wouldn't allow > another pupil to do and he also unwillingly permits Harry to confront > a lot of things rather than protect him from but as people who have > finished Order of the Phoenix will know Dumbledore has had to step > back a little bit from Harry in an effort to teach him some of life's > harder lessons. > > SF: You have to push your beloved chickens out of the nest > > JKR: You do > > vmonte: DD training Harry?! More canon for SSSusan's theory about > Harry in SS/PS. > Dzeytoun' reply: As I recall, this was in response to a question about why Dumbledore doesn't react more to some of the injustice Harry faces from Malfoy and company. I think the moderator made the statement that "When we are young we keenly feel injustice... For instance, Dumbledore KNOWS the parents are Death Eaters." One plausible interpretation of her answer is that although Dumbledore would rather protect Harry from this injustice (i.e. silence Malfoy and perhaps tell Snape to cool it), he knows that Harry needs to learn the poltiical realities up front, so he will be prepared to deal with the harsh battle that is coming. That is quite a bit different from setting up "tests" or "training exercises." I will admit though, that this is one of JKR's most evasive and frustrating statements. It is hard to know what she means with any degree of certainty, whether with regard to OOTP or anything else. > _________________________________________________________________ > > > JKR: No I didn't. I will say this I had to put in some things because > of what's coming in 6 and 7 and I didn't want anyone to say to > me "what a cheat you never gave us clues". Because if I didn't > mention certain things that happen in Order of the Phoenix I think > you could have said to me "well you sprang that on us" whereas I want > you to be able to get them if you've got your wits about you. There > are a few surprises coming. > > JKR: I do, I will say I think he has the hardest time in this book. > Because although there are some scary things coming for Harry in this > book know one believes him and also he's a teenager and to have those > two burdens in life at once is quite horrible But from know on at > least everyone knows he's been telling the truth so whatever he has > to face he doesn't also have to deal with everyone being quite so > distrustful of him. > > vmonte: Clues? Anyone? Dzeytoun's answer: Who knows? JKR has said that things will continue to get darker, and that if she were Harry she would "run and hide" from what's coming. On the other hand she has made some statements that fifth year was Harry's worst. My guess, and it's only a guess, is that we will see the war situation become very grim, but that Harry will feel quite a bit less isolated and more supported as he will no longer have the problem with people not believing him and as the faulty policies of the past will in some sense be corrected. Dzeytoun From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 11:07:51 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:07:51 -0000 Subject: Pensieve (was Re: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: <20040712221633.26020.qmail@web90006.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105964 I, Del, wrote : > We have no proof that a Pensieve memory is objective, but I would be > *thoroughly* disappointed to learn that it isn't, because it would > *undermine* the whole point of the Pensieve IMO. DD explained that he > puts his memories in the Pensieve in order to help himself find > patterns and links he couldn't find otherwise. But if those memories > are flawed because subjective to start with, then how can he expect > to make anything worthwhile out of them ? In my idea, the whole point > of putting them outside of his own head is precisely that it's easier > to observe them rationally this way, with an outsider's view, in > other words : objectively. Amber answered : > You know I've thought a lot about this. I don't think a memory is > objective. If you think about it logically it can't be. It's > something you experience in the past and emotion does play a part in > it.Ask anybody about a past event. They might forget some details, > but they'll will remember exactly how they felt.So lets not forget > that this Snape memory. Yes Harry could hear what his father and > friends said, but the fact is it's Snape's memory and no one else's. > I think what DD meant was by putting the memory in the pensive > allowed him to look at without the emotions that would go > along with it. He could look at it in a more detached way. Del replies : But if, as you say, our emotions modify the memory to start with, if the memory is not objective because we've tainted it with our emotions right from the beginning, then what's the point of trying to look at it objectively later ? Looking objectively at something that you know is NOT an objective recount of an event won't bring you any sure conclusions about that event, and for sure no *objective* conclusion. It's going to great lengths for a result that you simply can never be sure of. Del From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Tue Jul 13 09:17:17 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 05:17:17 -0400 Subject: Out On A Limb About Florence Message-ID: <001601c468ba$32185e00$a7c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 105965 Neri said: "Florence can't be a mistake. She's too much singled, smack in the middle of DD's memories, and what with the anonymous kisser and the hex. That's just too many intriguing details to be a mistake. Florence certainly might be a red herring. But then, almost any possible clue in HP might be a red herring, and that have never stopped us from theorizing." Cathy: I think the importance of this scene is not Florence but who she was kissing. The boy who hexed Bertha Jorkins. I don't have any speculation of who he is. I am nearly as bad at math as JKR and while Sirius (I think) said Bertha was a few years ahead of the Marauders at Hogwarts, I don't know who would be in that same age bracket Fudge, Crouch? I think Lucius Malfoy is too old, isn't he? He was 41 in 1995, he would be about 6 years older than the Marauders, I think. I agree with what someone said a few days ago that Snape and the Marauders would be too young and be off Bertha's 16-year-old radar, so it would be someone closer to her age, so 5th - 7th year. Sturgis Podmore I think is about the right age but how does he work in? I just don't know, and it is only intuition that makes me think it is the person whose name is not mentioned that is more important to the story. Like 'the next man' in the ring of DE's at the Graveyard. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Tue Jul 13 09:33:18 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 05:33:18 -0400 Subject: The Sorting Hat doesn't sort /WAS The sorting hat seems to think Harry... Message-ID: <001f01c468bc$6e6fd660$a7c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 105966 "happybean98 wrote : > Also, Harry was an exceptional case because the Dursley's should have > told him about Hogwarts, and the WW, but they chose not to. Hermione > was muggle born, but she figured out the house system by > reading "Hogwarts a History". Del replies : Actually *Hermione* is the exception here. She was probably the only one who read that book. I'm pretty sure none, or very very few, of the other Muggle-born students knew about the different Houses." Cathy: I think you're right, Del, that most of the other Muggle-borns would know nothing of the different houses before they reached the school, or at least the train. In the PS6, Hermione says: "Do either of you know what house you'll be in? I've been asking around and I hope I'm in Gryffindor, it sounds by far the best, I hear Dumbledore himself was one..." She, for once, never mentioned Hogwarts, A History, but that she had just been 'asking around.' I'm sure she would have read about the different houses in the book, and perhaps the different qualities/abilites each house was looking for (maybe or may not be in the book), but her 'asking around' made her want to go to Gryffindor. . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Tue Jul 13 10:03:28 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 06:03:28 -0400 Subject: Ted Tonks Message-ID: <003901c468c0$a55ab010$a7c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 105967 Lee said: "I don't know if this has been brought up before, but here goes. This is just a thought on the subject. I was reading OoP again, and I noticed a few interesting things in the scene where Sirius and Harry are talking about the tapestry (from pg. 105-108). First, Andromeda is married to a Muggle." Cathy: I made the same mistake on my first read because Nymphadora (what a name!) is going on about her dad and Muggles being messy or neat. Ted Tonks is actually a Muggle-born wizard. That still puts Andromeda on the outs with the Black family because she should only, in their opinion, married a pure-blood wizard. Hence both herself and Nymphadora have been blasted off the tapestry. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Tue Jul 13 09:51:23 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 05:51:23 -0400 Subject: Prefects and points Message-ID: <002c01c468be$f5709e90$a7c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 105968 Shaun Hately said: "Yes, taking points is a prefect's duty at Hogwarts, and it does worry me slightly than Ron doesn't even seem to know he has the power. But it's possible that he simply hasn't had the need to use it. He may be getting results in other ways. We don't really get to see much of what he does." Cathy I'm sorry, I don't buy this for a second. JKR is wrong..she made another mistake. I don't know where the mistake came in, but it is not Ron's fault as she claims. In the OotP, in the encounter between Malfoy (prefect), Macmillan (prefect), Ron (prefect), Hermione (prefect), and Harry, Malfoy says he's going to dock some house points. It is Ernie Macmillan who says only teachers can dock house points. Ron agrees, with, yeah, we're prefects, too. Malfoy ALSO agrees that prefects can't take house points, but members of the Inquisitorial Squad can. Hermione is there for the whole conversation. Heaven knows if Prefects could take House Points Hermione would know and would have said so, if not earlier to Ron, then at least at this point. Her silence is agreement. Four of the eight 5th year prefects were in this scene and all of them agreed, verbally or by silence that only teachers can dock house points. Hermione has never once tried to dock house points from the Twins or anyone else. House points, while not overly important to the Twins is at least another tack she could have taken, but she went straight from them saying, oh yeah, just try to put us in dentention, to I'll tell your mother. No mention of House Points. Now, as for the CoS Percy business, perhaps, 6th year prefects can dock house points. Percy would be in 6th year by that time. Or, more likely, he said he was docking 5 points on Ron's behalf, but was going to run to McGonnagal, tell her what happened and get her to actually dock the points. This whole thing has been annoying me for some time...as if you couldn't tell that, right? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Tue Jul 13 10:16:28 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 06:16:28 -0400 Subject: Three People in the Prophecy Message-ID: <004601c468c2$767c7ab0$a7c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 105969 David said: "What if there are three people referred to in the prophecy? On her website, JKR says she worded the prophecy "extremely carefully." What if: The one = Harry Potter The Dark Lord = Lord Voldemort The other = Neville Longbottom JKR writes: "and either (*the one* OR the *Dark Lord*) must die at the hand of THE OTHER for neither can live while THE OTHER survives..." (all emphases mine) Since I first read the prophecy, I thought that "the other" referred to Harry or Voldemort and they would have to try and kill each other to truly live. It makes a whole lot of sense to read it that way and it is quite a bit simpler than the theory I'm throwing out here, but stay with me. In the American version of OOP, P. 841, Harry hears the phrophecy and then asks: "What did that mean?" Dumbledore explains that the only person who can ultimately defeat Lord Voldemort was born at the end of July sixteen years ago... Harry asks: "It means -- me?" Dumbledore then explains that it could have applied to two wizard boys with parents who escaped L.V. three times. Dumbledore says: "ONE, of course, was you. THE OTHER was Neville Longbottom." (Again, my emphasis.)(OOP American version page 842) Could JKR throw this type of twist at us? Does she gives us the answer to her "extremely carefully"-worded prophecy eight tiny paragraphs after she writes it?" Cathy: Glad to know someone besides myself is still wrestling with this dratted prophecy. On page 736 of the Canadian version of OofP, Dumbledore says: "Voldemort had been *vanquished* hours before..." The first part of the Prophecy is: "the one with the power to *vanquish* the Dark Lord approaches..born as the seventh month dies." Has Harry already *vanquished* the Dark Lord, now leaving room for "THE OTHER"? I don't know, but it adds fuel to your fire, doesn't it? I've pondered over this prophecy so long my head nearly fell off and I had to stop. As to whether JKR could throw this kind of twist, of course she could, it is her book after all. My only problem with the whole theory is this from OotP: 'So,' said Harry, dredging up the words from what felt like a deep well of despair inside him, 'so does that mean that ... that one of us has got to kill the other one...in the end?' 'Yes,' said Dumbledore. Which at first glance looks like DD is saying Harry has to kill LV or LV has to kill Harry, but what if it means one of them has to kill Neville? Good. More now to think about. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Tue Jul 13 11:03:32 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (Agnes Raggett) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:03:32 +0100 Subject: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books Message-ID: <000801c468c9$09bccd60$7cca86d9@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 105970 Huntergreen: > Just because Dumbledore may not be in love with Snape's teaching > methods, doesn't mean that he believes Snape is necessarily 'in the > wrong', just that he disagrees. Aggie: I completely agree. Maybe other nationalities do not have a history of being taught by this method. In Britain, this was a common way of teaching. Teachers did not work on a 'friendly' basis. They were there to teach, not to be popular. My father was taught this way and thinks that it is the best way of being taught. He feels that the classroom situation is getting out of hand . . . anyway, this is getting OT now so i'll stop. Shaun: > Specific skills as a teacher, rather than mere knowledge of the > subject being taught, were regarded as non-essential, though > valuable if they were present. It was, more or less, assumed that > pupils would learn if the teacher knew his subject." > Now, my work is certainly challengeable on this - Aggie: My thoughts exactly! You just got there first!! ;o)) Dzeytoun: > >>I think the disaster of Occlumency provides plentiful evidence that > Snape's teaching methods have resulted in a very unfortunate and > dangerous situation.< Huntergreen: > But was that Snape's fault or Harry's fault? Remember, Lupin used a > similar teaching method when he taught Harry the patronus charm, he > was just nicer about it. Aggie: I'm with Huntergreen. This was never going to work, as DD realises in the end (but too late!). If the tutor and the student do not appreciate each other then it will NOT work. This was forced onto both of them. Had Lupin been able to teach it then I'm sure it would have worked because Lupin would have got Harry interested. Snape (and Harry) just wanted to get done and out. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Amber_Falls at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 10:08:04 2004 From: Amber_Falls at yahoo.com (Amber_ Falls) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 03:08:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How did Sirius lure Severus into the Willow? (was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040713100804.74988.qmail@web90005.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 105971 --- Jen Reese wrote: > > Jen: Snape didn't get his coveted pound of flesh > because he had > reasons for keeping silent. It's clear in POA that > Snape is willing > to skirt around Dumbledore's wishes when he wants > to; nothing > Dumbledore said or did would keep Snape from talking > about the Prank > if he wanted to. No, he's not talking because he's > either hiding > something or protecting someone. Which it is, I > haven't a clue. Amber: You have very good points there, Jen. At the end of PoA it didn't stop him to reveal that Lupin is a werewolf.He knew very well that this went against DD wishes.I don't think he would have keep his mouth shut unless he's got a good reason. Amber __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 11:31:50 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:31:50 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: <04c301c46868$4de5f4a0$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105972 Charme wrote : > Immature emotion breeds immature acts, not logic, and those actions > can often not be justified. What I does intrigue me is applying the > concept that every action has an indisputable reaction - good or bad. > And bad actions often breed bad reactions, which breed worse > actions....it's human nature and when emotions are involved, ZIP - > logic - for the most part- is out the window. Del replies : No rotten tomatoes for you, Charme, well, not from *me* anyway :-) I agree with you that emotions govern human reactions much more than logic. I had my Mr Spock period back when I was 10, when I thought this was a bad thing, but I outgrew it a long time ago. But anyway, I wasn't trying to apply logic to the characters' emotions, but only to Valky's chain of deductions : Snape was raised in and presumably liked the Dark Arts Hence : Snape would choose a Dark Curse to defend himself Hence : Any curse that Snape would choose would necessarily be Dark Magic. This is a flawed reasoning, it's not logical. Hence I don't accept it as a convincing argument. That was all. Charme wrote : > *what if* Dark Magic is just any magic performed to the detrement, > psychological or otherwise, of another? If that's the case, James AND > Snape both are guilty. Del replies : Ah Charme, you're on the way of becoming my new best friend, you know that ;-) ? Charme wrote : > Snape is also guilty of a testosterone > enhanced immature emotional reaction by his Lily name calling - some > CHICK stood up for him, how embarrassing for someone whose self > esteem is absolutely fragile in a desire not to fail! Del replies : Absolutely ! I'm not a Snape fan, and I still don't approve of his insulting Lily, but I can understand where it came from. Charme wrote : > Del, I think you're right that Lily didn't hate James, she despised > his behavior and she wanted him to change. If you weren't interested > in a guy, why would you want to let him know what *exactly* he needs > to change to get your attention? Funny...as I type this, I'm reminded > that girls always mature faster than boys ;) Del replies : Oho ! And doesn't that remind you of another girl constantly fighting with a certain boy and pointedly insulting him about one particular flaw ? Del From drednort at alphalink.com.au Tue Jul 13 11:43:49 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:43:49 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Prefects and points In-Reply-To: <002c01c468be$f5709e90$a7c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: <40F45795.1131.2DD0B9D@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 105973 On 13 Jul 2004 at 5:51, Cathy Drolet wrote: > Shaun Hately said: > > "Yes, taking points is a prefect's duty at Hogwarts, and it does > worry me slightly than Ron doesn't even seem to know he has the > power. But it's possible that he simply hasn't had the need to use > it. He may be getting results in other ways. We don't really get to > see much of what he does." > > > Cathy > > I'm sorry, I don't buy this for a second. JKR is wrong..she made > another mistake. I don't know where the mistake came in, but it is > not Ron's fault as she claims. Yes, it does look like she was wrong - but at the time I posted what you've quoted, I hadn't yet seen anybody citing the correct text. I just assumed the FAQ was accurate. > In the OotP, in the encounter between Malfoy (prefect), Macmillan > (prefect), Ron (prefect), Hermione (prefect), and Harry, Malfoy says > he's going to dock some house points. It is Ernie Macmillan who says > only teachers can dock house points. Ron agrees, with, yeah, we're > prefects, too. Malfoy ALSO agrees that prefects can't take house > points, but members of the Inquisitorial Squad can. Hermione is there > for the whole conversation. Heaven knows if Prefects could take House > Points Hermione would know and would have said so, if not earlier to > Ron, then at least at this point. Her silence is agreement. Four of > the eight 5th year prefects were in this scene and all of them agreed, > verbally or by silence that only teachers can dock house points. > Hermione has never once tried to dock house points from the Twins or > anyone else. House points, while not overly important to the Twins is > at least another tack she could have taken, but she went straight from > them saying, oh yeah, just try to put us in dentention > > Now, as for the CoS Percy business, perhaps, 6th year prefects can > dock house points. Percy would be in 6th year by that time. Or, more > likely, he said he was docking 5 points on Ron's behalf, but was going > to run to McGonnagal, tell her what happened and get her to actually > dock the points. Actually, my view, which I've mentioned before, is that to reconcile these problems, I think a possible solution is that prefects are allowed to take points from their own house, but are not permitted to take them from other houses. This would match Percy being able to take points from Ron, but would make Draco's power to take points from those in other houses new and unusual. It would also make a lot of sense to me for such a restriction to exist. In a school where Draco Malfoy can become a prefect, you'd need some control to prevent Slytherin winning the House Cup each year just by stealing points (OK - maybe some Slytherin's could be honest and fair - but you'd need all six to be, to prevent this happening!). As prefects are an appointment based on the House, I would think it's quite likely their main powers are house based. An inability to take away point from another house would also explain how Draco gets away with this: "'And what're you doing down here, Weasley?' he sneered. Percy looked outraged. 'You want to show a bit more respect to a school prefect!' he said. 'I don't like your attitude!' Malfoy sneered and motioned for Harry and Ron to follow him. Harry almost said something apologetic to Percy but caught himself just in time." (CoS, p.164) If Percy could have taken points from Draco, I am *certain* he would have done so there. It also *kind of* addresses the mistake in Order of the Phoenix. "'Afraid I'm going to have to dock a few points from Gryffindor and Hufflepuff,' he drawled. 'It's only teachers who can dock points from houses, Malfoy,' said Ernie at once. 'Yeah, we're prefects, too, remember?' snarled Ron. 'I know prefects can't dock points, Weasel King,' sneered Malfoy. Crabbe and Goyle sniggered. 'But members of the Inquisitorial Squad-' 'The what' said Hermione sharply." If Ernie *meant* to say "It's only teachers who can dock points from *other* houses", and the others simply assumed that that is what he meant, this scene fit in a bit more neatly. I mean, if he misspoke, nobody is likely to interrupt and say: "you mean other houses" - it's not a major point in the situation they are discussing. And it is interesting he says: "points from houses" rather than just "points" - the two words are redundant unless they have meaning. I think it's easier to assume that Ernie simply slightly misspoke - and in a conversation between four prefects, they all understood what he meant, so nobody bothered to make an issue of it. That still means there's a discrepancy with JKRs FAQ answer - but as it seems clear she was relying on a faulty memory of what she wrote, I don't think that's that surprising. Maybe Ron (in her mind) hasn't been authoritarian, and hasn't taken any points - so to her, when asked this question, she thinks "Why did I write that - it must be because I thought he might not know this." Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 11:48:11 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:48:11 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Hermione's Reaction to... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105974 mayeaux45 wrote: > But too much emphasis is being put on him for being spared the hurt > of losing a possible romance with Hermione. Harry has very few joys > besides Quidditch! Del replies : Yep, and Hermione took that one away in PoA... mayeaux45 wrote: > PHEW! Can we get some well needed sympathy for Harry too or should I > write more? Del replies : Oh, but I do have sympathy for Harry ! However, I don't think that just because someone is not there for you *all the time* doesn't mean they are not great wonderful friends. I don't demand that of my friends, and I would resent them if they demanded it from me. That wouldn't be friendship anymore, that would be slavery. mayeaux45 wrote: > IMO, Hermione is the ONLY one thus far, that has shown unwavering > solidarity and loyalty towards Harry! That speaks volumes...once > again IMO! Del replies : Except, as I pointed before, in PoA, when she arranged to have his most fabulous gift snatched away from under his nose for an undefinite period of time (maybe forever), and just because of a *suspicion* that it was jinxed. Her intentions were pure but Harry did NOT appreciate. And by the way, I am NOT a R/H shipper. But I am even less of a H/H one. I just want them all to be happy. If I had things my way, Hermione would end up with someone very nice who appreciates all of her and whom she wouldn't feel a need to protect and support *all the time*, like Viktor Krum or Remus Lupin. Del From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Jul 13 12:04:56 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:04:56 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius lure Severus into the Willow? (was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105975 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brenda M." wrote: > > Bren now: > > WHAT wishful thinking?? I don't *hope* Snape is a vampire, I don't > really believe in it, and even if he was I couldn't care less. I was > just trying to illustrate my point that DD BLACKMAILED Snape somehow > to keep him quiet. THAT was my point. Blackmailing. And I was > merely thinking of a few possiblities as to HOW DD accomplished > this. Yes, I did "invent non-canon situations" but then how much > CANON do we have on this now to rely on it? We don't have much, > that's why we started speculating on this to begin with. And it > doesn't hurt to suggest some theories, that is why this board exists > anyways. And no, this isn't what I want either, like I said, I > couldn't care less. > > If you could come up with a much better and logical situation > supported by canon then I'd love to hear it (and apologize for > snapping at you), really. > Kneasy: This highlights one of the significant divides in fandom, IMO. OK, an hypothetical case: Character A is behaving in an atypical way; posters are wondering why. Generally (and this is very general, a crude example) it may be handled thus: 1. Scour the canon, find something, anything that may explain the aberrant actions. Almost anything will do, including inter-actions with other characters, that can be argued as a possible starting point for extrapolation and supposition. But nothing seems applicable, so - 2. Try re-assessing the characters profile - is he not what he seems? ESE maybe; have we been handed a clue? Are any previous actions open to re-interpretation given what we now know? But insufficient evidence (or re-interpretation doesn't really work), so - 3a. Guess, or - 3b. Admit defeat. It's at 3a. that the divide occurs - and it's more a matter of *degree* than anything else. Just how far do you go? Except in my (hopefully) humorous posts I feel uncomfortable making guesses that are more than very vague. Though the logic be tortuous and the canon in paper-thin shreds, back-to-front and twisted in knots, I dislike making suppositions that don't have at least a little something behind them. Others see it differently - and it is a matter of taste, not correctness - they're willing to make guesses that are fairly specific in nature but, at the time of writing, have no canon support whatsoever. In my own mind I call this wishful thinking. This was the sort of guesswork that produced all the Mark Evans threads. (Something I refused point blank to get into - canon states that the Dursleys are Harry's sole living relatives - a flat statement. If you can't believe that we might as well all pack up and go home. The same sort of situation looms with HBP; someone's guess will catch the imagination of posters and for some at least, the guess will be accepted as canon-in-waiting.) How does this tie in with my response to your post? Well, you've made a fairly specific couple of guesses - blackmail or throwing Snape out into the cold, cold world during school holidays. How did you reach them? Any evidence? Any at all? From your own post you contradict yourself - would the DD you see and admire submit to blackmail? Would he deliberately impose physical or psychological hardship on a student? The DD I see wouldn't. At the moment I have no theories why things happened the way they did. I was wondering if anyone else could throw light on the matter; apparently not. And before I give serious consideration to suggestions, I'd like a little canon (or extrapolation from canon) to go with them please. > > Brenda: Perhaps I should've been more clear. I didn't mean that DD > was God in Potterverse, I meant to say he resembles God in many ways, > much more than other characters in Potterverse (that we know of). The > only fallibility I see in DD was trusting Crouch!Moody. This made me > really afraid of Barty Jr actually and I wondered if he was more > powerful than DD (but he did have a help of that magical eye.) > > Brenda, anxiously waiting for Kneasy's rebuttal... Kneasy: I don't bite; well, not often. And I really don't think you ought to read post 65696; it'll only raise your blood pressure. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 13:05:56 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:05:56 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105976 Anasazi wrote : > True, Ron is poor... but he happens to have a good home where the > people that live there love him (and we all know that, even with all > the teasing, the twins love their little bro). He has a mother and a > father who love him. Del replies : I already expressed my views about that. In short, they love Number 6, they don't love *Ron*. His mother cannot even remember that he hates corned-beef or the colour marroon (think of the pain of getting every single year a Christmas gift that he hates from his mom ! Especially when Harry gets nice personalised sweaters...). The twins won't let him (or Percy) be whoever or whatever he wants. His mom humiliates him in front of the whole school (the Howler). She never believed in him enough to even *hope* that he might be made school prefect (while she did hope that the twins would be). I always felt like Harry and Ron's first dialog was very telling, when Ron gloomily tells Harry that he has not 3, but 5, older brothers. That's Ron entire identity until age 11 in a nutshell : he's Number 6. Anasazi wrote : > He has no money, but I doubt he's ever gone hungry to bed. Del replies : But the lack of money plays against Ron developing his self-esteem anyway, because once again he is constantly reminded that he is Number 6. He gets Charlie's old wand, Percy's old pet, and so on. Not to mention the too small clothes and the formal dress that looks like a girl's gown. And of course as many second-hand things as possible. I've been there (second-hand stuff and clothes too small but you can't buy new ones), and I know it doesn't help with a kid's self-esteem. Anasazi wrote : > He may not be the brightest boy when it comes to school (neither is > Harry - the position belongs solely to Draco), Del replies : Harry *is* the best in DADA. Ron is best at nothing. And even if he were, he would still be not as good as one or the other of his big brothers. Anasazi wrote : > but he has shown he's a good strategist. Del replies : He got a handful of points for that in PS (still less than Harry did), and since then ? Nothing. Nobody cares. Harry, on the other hand, is often congratulated for his various accomplishments. Anasazi wrote : > He's now able to play his beloved Quidditch, and is enjoying the fame > and attention that came with it. Del replies : But he's *easily* second-best to Harry ! Harry has been the star of the show right from their first year, while Ron got his first shoot at fame at the end of his 5th year. Harry is naturally immensely talented, Ron has been ridiculing himself on the Quidditch pitch for the whole year. And he got his fame moment only after Harry left the team anyway. Second-best, again and again. Anasazi wrote : > Now, let's compare what Ron has with Harry... Harry is an orphan, > both parents murdered by a powerhungry sociopath when he was only one > year old. Forced to live for 10 years with an abusive family that > regarded him as less valuable than the poo I stepped on last night > (and that's pretty low my friend). I mean, we can consider that Ron's > self-esteem might be a bit low due to the constant comparison with > his succesful older brothers... but what about Harry, who lived for > those 10 years in the shadow of Dudley? Del replies : But the thing is : we know, we *see*, that Ron has a problem of self-esteem because of his big brothers. On the other hand, Harry never shows any feelings of inferiority relating to the way the Dursleys treat him. The only doubts he has in PS/SS is that he doesn't think he can be a good wizard. But events quickly convince him of the opposite. Ron *has* a problem of self-esteem, Harry doesn't. And telling Ron that he shouldn't have that problem because, hey he had it better than Harry all those years, would be useless, unhelpful and cruel. Anasazi wrote : > Then he finds he's a wizard and that he has money. Pity that is blood > money since he only inherited because his parents are dead. Then in > Hogwarts, he is thrown in the limelight of fame in a way he comes to > despise (how many people want to have lies written about them in the > media, raise their hands), finds out that the murdering sociopath is > still out there, waiting to come back to his full power, in order to > finish what they started that night in Godric's Hollow (Re: Death). Del replies : I know all of that. It doesn't change the fact that all those things help Harry define who he is and who he wants to be, even if they do so in brutal and highly unpleasant ways. But Ron is *nobody* : he's just the 6th Weasley son and Harry's shadow. Let's face it : that's even precisely the reason Harry took to Ron to start with : because he felt that Ron felt just as miserable as Harry did, even if it was for a different reason. Harry felt like he couldn't possibly fit in the WW, and he saw right away that Ron was crushed by the weight of having 3 (no, 5) big brothers. Harry felt like he was nobody, and he recognized a similar-minded soul in Ron. Except that Harry quickly discovered that he was wrong about himself, but Ron only got his own belief confirmed to him by becoming the Famous Harry Potter's shadow. Harry was thrown into the light, Ron has had to fight to get out of the shadows that surround him from everywhere. That's a MAJOR difference for teenage boys whose main unconscious concern is precisely to discover *who they are*. Neither position is pleasant, but at least one can *see* in the light. Anasazi wrote : > He's been close to death not once, not twice, but six times, and has > witnessed the people he cares about almost losing their lives because > of their relationship with him. Del replies : Ron has several times put his own life at risk for his friends, and he's come perilously close to losing his little sister and his father. Anasazi wrote : > He has gained, and LOST, the closest thing he had to a paternal > figure (Sirius). And now, he has that godforsaken prophecy hanging > over his head. Talk about pressure! I would have broken down a long > time ago. Del replies : Ron is under tremendous pressure too, even if we don't realise it. Pressure to prove himself from his parents, pressure to follow Harry wherever he goes no matter the circumstances and no matter how deadly it will undoubtebly prove to be, and an enormous internal pressure to discover who he is and who he wants to be. Only problem : the simplest way to achieve that last goal that would be to get away from those who cast those shadows on him, Harry and his family, but that's precisely what Ron can't, what he won't, do. Anasazi wrote : > So it seems to me that Harry was the one that drew the short straw > here. Del replies : It doesn't change the fact that Ron is constantly in Harry's shadow. In all the things that matter as far as self-esteem is concerned, Ron is always second-best to Harry. Except in the Prefect matter, but even there we readers know better. Del From rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu Tue Jul 13 13:06:40 2004 From: rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu (susanbones2003) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:06:40 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105977 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "paul_terzis" wrote: Ananzi wrote:> > > > So it seems to me that Harry was the one that drew the short straw > > here. > > > Then Paul: > Right to the point Anasazi! We read all the time about who gets the > girl at the end and the endless debate about who is the best > candidate (Ron or Harry?). There is neither a comparison here > people nor a contest. We have from one side Ron a typical but > nevertheless important and competent teenager. And we have also HP a > strange hybrid between teenager and adult. Yes HP tries to live > normal and sometimes he acts as a normal teenager, especially in > dating matters. But he isn't normal anymore. He had lived any > possible nightmarish experience and there is more to come till the > end. Ron fought with valor and he is willing to stand with HP in > this war. Nobody can deny that. But he can't understand the full > extent of his decision. And that because he didn't see someone close > to him dying. He didn't suffer overwhelming physical and emotional > pain. He didn't face death or pure Evil. Only HP saw the raw face of > war and cruelty and only he is destined to become murderer or a > corpse. That's the story and that is where we must focus people. HP > series is not mainly a teenage love story. It is the Odyssey of HP. > > Cheers, > Paul Jen writes: While it is HP's odyssey, Ananzi pointed out that there is terrific pressure on Harry, that he's in no way shape or form normal and that he has very little normalcy in his future. It seems inherent in the human spirit (and the writers of this list) to hope for some aspect of a normal life for Harry and all other mythic sojourners. Hence, all the glorious shipping we are doing. Very likely, we may never see Harry have a girlfriend. Doesn't seem like there is much time or opportunity left but forgive us if we digress into such a mundane exercise as speculating on Harry's so-called love life. It's just us hoping someday he comes out of all this alive. Jennifer From squeakinby at tds.net Tue Jul 13 13:27:30 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:27:30 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40F3E342.20206@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 105978 delwynmarch wrote: > Del replies : > It doesn't change the fact that Ron is constantly in Harry's shadow. > In all the things that matter as far as self-esteem is concerned, Ron > is always second-best to Harry. Except in the Prefect matter, but even > there we readers know better. > > Del Nothing left for Ron but death, the sooner the better to avoid further humilation. Jem From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Tue Jul 13 11:21:09 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:21:09 -0000 Subject: Pensieve (was Re: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105979 > Amber: I don't think a memory is > > objective. If you think about it logical way it can't be. > Del replies : > But if, as you say, our emotions modify the memory to start with, if > the memory is not objective because we've tainted it with our emotions > right from the beginning, then what's the point of trying to look at > it objectively later ? Aggie: Hi! I think that you both have very valid points. Amber is right, a person's memory IS subjective, tainted by the emotions that flow through it. However, Del is also right, what is the point of trying to look at something objectively if it's blurred by subjectiveness already?! I believe that the pensieve allows the person to 'see' the scene in an objective light. Somehow, don't ask how we are talking magic here, it manages to detach the emotional aspect of the memory and just shows the facts, like a video recording. Now the facts can be argued over, as some of us have been doing (haven't we Del ;o)) but IMHO I think the pensieve's view is a true one not contaminated by emotion. From ToonGrL77 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 13 13:14:08 2004 From: ToonGrL77 at hotmail.com (Summer Leary) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:14:08 -0400 Subject: SHIP:Hermione's reaction to... References: <1089720340.12122.37438.m18@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105980 mayeaux45 wrote: > IMO, Hermione is the ONLY one thus far, that has shown unwavering > solidarity and loyalty towards Harry! That speaks volumes...once > again IMO! and then Del replied : >Except, as I pointed before, in PoA, when she arranged to have his >most fabulous gift snatched away from under his nose for an undefinite >period of time (maybe forever), and just because of a *suspicion* that >it was jinxed. Her intentions were pure but Harry did NOT appreciate. snip. I, SuMMer, feel like the incident above(Hermione reporting the gift because she feared a jinx) is a perfect example of the 'unwavering solidarity and loyalty towards Harry' that mayeaux45 mentions. Hermione risked her closest friend being angry with her in order to save him from a possible jinx! Isn't that the perfect example of loyalty? What if her suspicion had been correct? She would never forgive herself if something happened to Harry because it had, in fact, been jinxed. So, instead, she risked Harry's anger in order to ensure his safety. I should be so lucky to have more people in my life like that. I'm a brand-new member, first-time poster. So this is just all IMHO. SuMMer (who ought to be getting ready for work but just can't tear herself away) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Jul 13 13:54:50 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:54:50 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: <1eb.24ea3608.2e24a019@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105981 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Batchevra at a... wrote: > > I think Dumbledore did have a stronger case in that Snape was out of bounds > of the school, the teachers knew what was going on, and probably did know that > Sirius, James and Peter knew about Lupin being a werewolf and encouraged the > friendship, but didn't know about them being animagi. I mean the portraits and > the ghosts must have overheard their conversations and kept Dumbledore > informed but since the Shrieking shack was off campus, didn't know the whole story. > We're talking about slightly different things, I think. DD is Headmaster; within limits he can do or order done whatever he likes so long as no-one from outside the school interferes. Here his hand is strong. But Snape has information that would interest some very powerful and influential people *outside* the school. He can bring the whole lot down on DD's head by just saying one word - "Werewolf" - in the right place. The outcry from parents would be such that the Board of Govenors wouldn't even bother to vote. DD would be out. Do you really think he doesn't know this? Kneasy From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 13:57:47 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:57:47 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105982 Paul wrote : > Ron fought with valor and he is willing to stand with HP in > this war. Nobody can deny that. But he can't understand the full > extent of his decision. And that because he didn't see someone close > to him dying. He didn't suffer overwhelming physical and emotional > pain. Del replies : Ron knows *very well* what following Harry might entail : death for himself and his loved ones. He could have died in PS/SS, at the hands of the giant chess Queen. He had seen what she had done to the previous piece she had laid her hands on. He couldn't fool himself. Harry and Hermione didn't either : they were afraid for his *life*. And still Ron *chose* to do it. In CoS, his sister almost died at the hands of a *shadow* of LV. In OoP, his father almost died too. Just because they did not *actually* die doesn't mean Ron doesn't understand the extent of his involvement in the war. He might not be living with the constant thought of his loved ones dying, like his mother, but I am sure that he does "understand the full extent of his decision." And he suffered overwhelming physical and emotional pain too. Both the way he sat on that bucket in the cupboard next to the staff room when he learned about his sister's disappearance in CoS, and his attitude while waiting for news of his father in OoP show pretty clearly that he suffered great emotional pain at those moments. Even Harry notices the pain the Weasley kids are going through at those times. And as for physical pain, it might not be as bad as some things Harry went through, but he sure suffered like mad when Sirius broke his leg in PoA. And still he stood up, literally, to defend Harry. Paul wrote : > He didn't face death or pure Evil. Only HP saw the raw face of > war and cruelty and only he is destined to become murderer or a > corpse. Del replies : Sorry Paul, but it doesn't take a Prophecy for any soldier to realise that he will have to kill or be killed. *Everyone* involved in the war, Prophecy or not, can be faced with that possibility of having to choose between killing or being killed. Harry just knows that in his case, it will happen for sure. The others can still hope it won't for them. But many of them most probably will have to face it anyway someday. And I don't believe Harry saw anywhere as much death, horror and evil as those who fought the first war did. Paul wrote : > That's the story and that is where we must focus people. HP > series is not mainly a teenage love story. It is the Odyssey of HP. Del replies : Well, I don't know how to tell you that nicely, Paul, so I'll just be frank but please don't be offended, OK ? You cannot tell me or anyone else how we're supposed to see the books. You can see them exclusively as the Odyssey of HP if you like, but you can't force us to see them that way if we don't want to. And I don't want to, because it *bores* me to death to consider them that way. Sorry. There are people out there who identify Harry's story with Alchemy or with different kinds of spiritual journeys, it's their right and I won't go telling them off for that, even if I couldn't relate less to what they are saying. Mind you, I'm not saying that HP is only a love story either, even though I could argue that every book, every life, is about finding love and acceptance. But I won't, because I don't mind admitting that the love stories are only sub-parts of the bigger story in HP, which is the war against LV. But I happen to *like* those sub-parts, so I will dwell on them if I want. Non mais >:-) ! Del From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Jul 13 14:08:14 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:08:14 -0000 Subject: JKR should have checked the Lexicon, was Ron as prefect In-Reply-To: <000701c468c4$3e065e60$8d58aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105983 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" wrote: > A quick note from a list L.O.O.N., because Ron is getting a bum rap here, and from JKR herself. Poor Ron. > You know, JKR should probably have nipped into an internet cafe and checked > the book before she wrote that comment. Because in the book, it is not only Ron, but also Ernie MacMillan and Hermione having the conversation with Draco, where outrage and disbelief are expressed that Draco, prefect, is docking points.< > Speculation: Old punishments sometimes stay on the books long after they've fallen out of use, especially in tradition-bound societies like the WW. Let's say that, technically, prefects were allowed to dock points, but by the time of our story this has fallen into disfavor and subsequently been forgotten. Rules-mad Percy is keen enough on his duties to discover this forgotten privilege and try to implement it (CoS ch-9. Hermione certainly would have objected then if Percy hadn't had the right to take points from them.) It doesn't catch on--in fact the senior Gryffindor prefects are horrified as they imagine what the Slytherin prefects would do with the ability to dock points if they knew they had it and they prevail on Percy not to do it again. If Umbridge could change the rules to allow the Inquisitorial Squad to deduct points, she also could change them so that prefects can't. Hermione knows this and stays silent. If Umbridge has by chance neglected to formally rescind the old rule, that could come in useful later. In any case, Hermione certainly isn't going to point out to Draco that actually he's always had the ability to deduct points, is she? Pippin From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 14:13:29 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:13:29 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: <40F3E342.20206@tds.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105984 Jem wrote : > Nothing left for Ron but death, the sooner the better to avoid > further humilation. Del blinks, gulps, her eyes start misting over, and next thing she knows she's bawling her heart out : BWAAAAAHHHH !!! BWAAH-AAAA-AAAA-AAAHH !! Jem waits stoically for this outburst to subside... *gulp* *sob* *gulp* (tremulous voice) H-h-honestly, Jem, *sob*, have you N-N-N-NO heart !? How c-c-can you, *sob*, say s-s-such a *horrible* thing !? *sob* *sob* *bawling* After a while, Del finally recovers enough to pat her eyes dry and to answer in an even-enough voice. No, I don't think Ron's only choice is to d-die, really not. All he needs is to get out of the shadows of his b-brothers and Harry. Well, his brothers have already left Hogwarts, so that's one m-mega-big shadow removed. And as for Harry... Well, Ron would just need to be given something *very important* to do *alone*, or at least not with Harry, something where people would have to admit that Ron did it without the slightest help from Harry. And of course, Ron has already been given the perfect tool for that : the Prefect badge. Del From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Tue Jul 13 14:19:36 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:19:36 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Out On A Limb About Florence Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105985 Neri: Florence can't be a mistake. She's too much singled, smack in the middle of DD's memories, and what with the anonymous kisser and the hex. That's just too many intriguing details to be a mistake. Gina: * has anyone thought maybe that was snape and lily? I have no doubt in my mind that the hexer was Snape but maybe the girl was Lily Potter?? Who else could it have been? I don't see Bella ever being romantic with Snape. Maybe Snape grabbed Lily and kissed her without her permission and that is another reason certain boys did not like him. Just a few thoughts. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 14:21:55 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:21:55 -0000 Subject: SHIP:Hermione's reaction to... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105986 SuMMer wrote : > I, SuMMer, feel like the incident above(Hermione reporting the gift > because she feared a jinx) is a perfect example of the 'unwavering > solidarity and loyalty towards Harry' that mayeaux45 mentions. > Hermione risked her closest friend being angry with her in order to > save him from a possible jinx! Isn't that the perfect example of > loyalty? Del replies : I agree. But I doubt that Harry *felt* Hermione's friendship on that one. If I remember correctly, he never once acknowledged that Hermione did the right thing, much less thanked her for caring that much about him. Since we were originally talking about who was a unwavering friend for Harry, I thought it was worth mentioning that on this occasion (which lasted several weeks), Harry did *not* feel like Hermione had been a good friend (and as far as we know, he still feels like that). Del From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Jul 13 14:29:52 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:29:52 -0000 Subject: Where's Strategist!Ron? was Re: Ron as prefect? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105987 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" wrote: >This was a perfect time for the emergence of strategist!Ron and instread of Ron shinning in any exceptional way, he is actually portrayed as being quite the dope. , I think it's been five years now and unless there's another chess game of doom in store for them, I don't see Ron applying his chess skills to anything other than chess peices--big or small. < The fight at the MOM illustrates perfectly why they *need* strategist!Ron. Harry's a brilliant improviser, but that isn't everything, and Hermione, though a good planner, is worse than usual at analyzing her plans for flaws. It would have been nice if Ron had applied his chess-playing skills to the MoM battle on the way to London--like, okay, suppose we do get there and find Voldemort and Sirius, *then* what are we going to do? And what if Hermione's right and this is some kind of trick? Fortunately Dumbledore is still around to save their bacon--but we're all anticipating that when the final showdown comes, that won't be the case. (I'm hoping for draught of living death rather than the final curtain, but you get the picture.) Asking why, in five years, Strategist!Ron hasn't happened is like asking why R/H hasn't happened. It hasn't happened because when it does, the story will be over. The story with Ron isn't whether his strategic abilities at chess can save the day in other situations, or whether an R/H relationship would actually work. The story with Ron is whether he'll realize that the only way he can find out whether he has the potential to fulfill his dreams is to go after them. Pippin who doesn't think Ron will die, but is expecting a touching funeral for Bill, Charlie, Fred and George From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Tue Jul 13 14:04:21 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:04:21 -0400 Subject: Prefects and points Message-ID: <001001c468e2$4cd79170$63fbe2d1@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 105988 Shaun Hately said: "Actually, my view, which I've mentioned before, is that to reconcile these problems, I think a possible solution is that prefects are allowed to take points from their own house, but are not permitted to take them from other houses. This would match Percy being able to take points from Ron, but would make Draco's power to take points from those in other houses new and unusual." Cathy now: You know, I've never thought of it that way. Prefects can take points from their own house but not others. I only have one problem with it. When Ron gets his letter "Or what?" said Fred, an evil grin spreading across his face. "Going to put us in detention?" "I'd love to see him try," sniggered George. "He could you know if you don't watch out!" said Hermione angrily. In Gryffindor common room when Fred & George are feeding Fainting Fancies to the first years: "If you don't stop doing it, I'm going to ---" Hermione "Put us in dentention?' said Fred, in an I'd-like-to-see-you-try-it voice. "Make us write lines?" said George, smirking. Even Fred and George know the only choice of Prefects is to hand out punishments. They never say "Dock us house points? Big deal." because they know prefects can't dock house points. Hermione was involved in both situations quoted above. If anyone knew the Prefects can take house points from their own house rule, she would have and would have pointed it out. She knew, from first hand experience, how angry the rest of the Gryffindors got when big chunks of points disappeard from their hourglass. She could have easily threatened F&G with not taking 10 house points, which no one would notice, but "If you don't stop doing it I'll take two hundred points a piece from you and just let's see how funny you'll think it is then." Didn't say it because she knew she couldn't do it. Detention means nothing to the Twins, obvioulsy, they've done it hundreds of times. Lines? What good are they anyway (well unless Umbridge is involved)? Can't take house points. What's left? Tell Mrs. Weasley. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 14:13:24 2004 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:13:24 -0000 Subject: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105989 Rebecca : > > But that was quite a different situation. In fact as dire as it > comes, involving life and death. This is only hurt feelings in a > potions class. As long as the children are still learning and none of > them are getting *seriously* affected by his snide remarks there's no > reason for Dumbledore to impose his will upon Snape. Finwitch: Neville seems to be seriously affected - enough to lose control of his magic, I think. Neville's problem in Snape's class is Snape (and his fear of SS); his problem in Charms/Transfiguration has been control (which, I believe, had to do with the fact that he was using his father's wand rather than one that chose him. Sure, Ron could use Charlie's - but I suppose Charlie might have given it to his little brother himself (willingly) unlike poor Frank who was in no condition to give his wand to anyone...). He's good at Herbology (no snape, no wand, calm environment)... Rebecca: > Lucious Malfoy is quite fond of him, and I doubt he would be if he > thought Snape was doing a horrible job teaching his son. And Draco > likes him quite a bit as well, even wanted him to be headmaster > during CoS. Also, Umbridge points out how advanced the class is, and > that's the only critisizm she can find. Finwitch comments: Snape's not nasty at Draco, is he? Or Slytherins for that matter? Mostly, he takes his own grudge from decades back on Harry and (occasionally) on Neville. Rebecca: > I know she's not the best > judge of teaching methods, but she is a representative of the MoM. > Actually, the fact that her classes are almost as snide as Snape's > (and she would be the one who'd know about approved teaching > methods), is an indication that Snape's methods are at least allowed, > if not favored. Finwitch: Yes, well - and HER methods are more methods to prevent learning than teaching! I mean really, it's nothing but repeat "rose is a flower" over and over again with no meaning! Her method might suit for children who are 5-7 years old - not for children 11, and certainly not at puberty with students at the age of 15! Binns is not a teacher but a BORING ghost of a lecturer... Rebecca: > But was that Snape's fault or Harry's fault? Remember, Lupin used a > similar teaching method when he taught Harry the patronus charm, he > was just nicer about it. He told Harry the incantation, told him how > to do it (focus on a happy memory), and let the boggart turn into the > dementer over and over again until Harry was finally able to do it. Big difference: Lupin suggested that Harry might need rest, but it was Harry who WANTED to keep on. Adults ought to care for the younglings need of sleep! Lupin ended the lesson when Harry wanted to continue... because Harry was too tired. Rebecca: > Harry failed many times and got rather exhausted in the process. The > occulmency lessons were similar: there was no incantation involved, > so Snape told Harry how to do it (clearing your mind), Finwitch; I disagree. Snape told Harry to clear his mind, but he NEVER told him how to do that. In fact, I think Harry was unable to concentrate - to clear his mind. He was too tired due to lack of sleep and loss of blood (and that's Dumbridge's fault), and only way Harry managed to go on, was living on adrenaline until he finally fainted during OWL exam. He even told Snape he had trouble with that... (AND Snape was making it harder). I also say that Dumbledore made a mistake in putting Snape to teach Harry that. Harry's dreams of that "door" began there. Snape reacts by telling Harry not to think of it (and that's the sort of order NO ONE can obey. You cannot stop thinking about something at order - what you'd need is distraction). Further, not only were Snape's feelings and immaturity getting into the way of Harry's learning... I think Harry was right: Snape was making it _worse_. Regardless on which side Snape truly is, he _does_ have the mark of a Death Eater, a mark linked to Lord Voldemort. A mark he had (more or less) willingly accepted. Harry's scar is ALSO a link to Voldemort - a link that lets Harry know any of Voldemort's strong emotions as if he was Voldemort? (it DID happen once so that Harry saved Arthur Weasley, and so he almost attacked Dumbledore). I think that, someone bearing Voldemort's mark makes this Legilimens- contact on Harry, who ALSO has a link... well, I think Voldemort got involved - or at least, LV's obsession for the prophecy got trough first time, because Snape's Dark Mark strenghtened the signal. (I think this also happened when Harry's scar hurt during the first book, when Snape AND Quirrelmort were there (While Voldemort was hiding inside Quirrell's turban)! (And that rat...) The scar never hurt during Harry's DADA class, after all.. Harry was able to put down LV's hatred (which Dumbledore feared and thus avoided Harry) because well, Harry LIKES Dumbledore, nor would he ever willingly kill anyone, so it's easy to recognise as NOT his. Harry wasn't, however, able to put down LV's obsession about the corridor - partly because he was *curious* about it (Albus' old error; he should have told Harry .. so Harry would have either not been curious or ASKED about it, rather than seeking out for himself...). Finwitch From shymetaphor at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 14:18:48 2004 From: shymetaphor at yahoo.com (Laura) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:18:48 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Hermione's Reaction to... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105990 wrote: > And by the way, I am NOT a R/H shipper. But I am even less of a H/H > one. I just want them all to be happy. If I had things my way, > Hermione would end up with someone very nice who appreciates all of > her and whom she wouldn't feel a need to protect and support *all the > time*, like Viktor Krum or Remus Lupin. > I'm glad to see someone point this out. Although I do think it is clear there is some chemistry between R/Hr, I can't see a serious adult relationship between them. Neither Ron, nor Harry, has "come into their own", really accepted their potentials, and Hermione is so often there to pick up the pieces or guide them. I can't see any ships UNLESS there is some dramatic growing up or some dramatic changes in either Ron or Harry. Otherwise, like Del wrote, I really think Hermione would be best with someone who can hold their own with her and sees all that she is. From quigonginger at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 14:56:14 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:56:14 -0000 Subject: Stag question for our British friends In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105991 Interesting, isn't it? A stag is a male deer in its fifth year. James became a stag in his fifth year. Coincidence? Um, yeah, probably. Thanks to everyone who helped me get to the hart of the matter. Ginger, who just had to throw that in. From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Jul 13 14:59:26 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:59:26 -0000 Subject: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: <000801c468c9$09bccd60$7cca86d9@oemcomputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105992 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Agnes Raggett" wrote: > I'm with Huntergreen. This was never going to work, as DD realises in the end (but too late!). If the tutor and the student do not appreciate each other then it will NOT work. This was forced onto both of them. Had Lupin been able to teach it then I'm sure it would have worked because Lupin would have got Harry interested. Snape (and Harry) just wanted to get done and out. > Nope, I don't think it would have worked even if Lupin had taught Harry. Nothing to do with ESE!Lupin theory here, just that even after Harry made some progress at Occlumency, he never tried to use it to control the dreams or to keep himself from dwelling on what he saw in them. The situation is similar (and I can't believe I never noticed this before) to the one that obtains in The Empire Strikes Back. Luke gets a vision of his friends in trouble, can't keep the vision out of his head, and rushes off to save them against the counsel of his mentors. I don't think Lupin would have had any more luck with Harry than Yoda and Ben had with Luke. Harry, like Luke, was ignorant that he was the last hope, and too precious in the eyes of his teachers to be sacrificed for the life of another. It doesn't really matter that the vision of Sirius was false--even if Sirius had truly been held captive, Harry shouldn't have gone after him. Pippin From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Tue Jul 13 15:08:52 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:08:52 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius lure Severus into the Willow? (was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105993 >>> Kneasy wrote: [snip] > 3a. Guess, or - 3b. Admit defeat. > It's at 3a. that the divide occurs - and it's more a matter of *degree* than anything else. Just how far do you go? [snip] > Except in my (hopefully) humorous posts I feel uncomfortable making > guesses that are more than very vague. Though the logic be tortuous and the canon in paper-thin shreds, back-to-front and twisted in knots, I dislike making suppositions that don't have at least a little something behind them. [snip] > How does this tie in with my response to your post? Well, you've made a fairly specific couple of guesses - blackmail or throwing Snape out into the cold, cold world during school holidays. From your own post you contradict yourself - would the DD you see and admire submit to blackmail? Would he deliberately impose physical or psychological hardship on a student? The DD I see wouldn't. Brenda: You say "How did you reach them? Any evidence? Any at all?" This is my fault, I apologize. I was assuming that it would be somewhat clear how my logic was laid out. So here it is -- my speculation as to HOW DD 'blackmailed' SSSnivellus (irresistable) to keep his mouth shut (about the whole Shrieking Shack fiasco and Lupin's nature): (1) DD kindly reminds Snape that he is also half-human and he must treat all the students same -- that is, IF Lupin gets expelled from this (Howler!parents), so must Snape. (2) Snape is another orphan who stayed at Hogwarts for the summer and DD tells him he can't grant him this priviledge if Snape were to go blabbing. So how did I reach these specific scenarios? I was thinking whatever 'blackmail material' DD had against Snape, it had to be something very PERSONAL for Snape that it was worth missing his *one* chance (perhaps the only) to see Sirius and Lupin expelled. This got me pondering. From which instances do we see characters having to weigh the benefits of doing something they *want* and something they *should*? Desire vs. Duty, so to speak. (1) From Shrieking Shack scene in PoA where Lupin explains that he had been tempted to inform DD of Padfoot!Sirius but he was afraid of betraying his trust. DD had allowed him to attend Hogwarts despite of his condition when no other Headmasters would. Then I remembered seeing some HPFG posters saying "Snape is a vampire". (I still have *no clue* how people got this idea and I would love to see how they argue on that.) The half-animal-blood nature makes some characters live in great fear of being discovered, I can name Hagrid, Madame Maxime and Lupin. What if this was what Snape was afraid of that he would oh-so-painfully let this go? Sounds very personal and risky enough. (2) Tom Riddle closed the Chamber of Secrets and blamed Hagrid from the fear of not being able to stay at Hogwarts for the summer. IMO Tom Riddle LOVED being the Heir of Slytherin, he loved the idea of 'purging those who are not worthy of studying magic'. Then why did he close it? To him, going back to orphanage for the summer was simply too painful to bear that he would rather close the Chamber. Not to mention providing some degree of closure to Moaning Myrtle's parents, but I doubt TR cared about that too much. And I thought this was a nice parallel to how Snape would have felt after Shrieking Shack Fiasco. [Also, it was only for the SUMMER, Snape wouldn't necessarily freeze in snow during England's summer, would he?!] Another point I should have made clear: I do *not* think DD had every intention of actually going through with this blackmail thing. I think he was somewhat 'bluffing' to test Snape, to simply remind him what is at stake. From OoP we know DD to be an accomplished Legilimens, he was using Snape's personal fear as a leverage, so to speak. He was convincing Snape NOT to do what he desired. DD knew what Snape would ultimately choose. And it makes sense to me that most students generally fear their Headmaster (who is widely known as the greatest wizard in WW btw), I daresay Harry was probably the first one to yell at him and wreck his possessions? >>> Me earlier: I meant to say he resembles God in many ways, > much more than other characters in Potterverse (that we know of). >>> Kneasy "bites": I don't bite; well, not often. > And I really don't think you ought to read post 65696; it'll only > raise your blood pressure. <<< Brenda: HAHAHA, how cunning of you (and I mean it the good way, hehe), pinning reverse psychology on me ;P I will respond to that *if* I see anything missing from the whole thread, as I'm certain it has been a hot topic... Brenda From kreneeb at hotmail.com Tue Jul 13 15:09:15 2004 From: kreneeb at hotmail.com (hermionekitten9) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:09:15 -0000 Subject: Ron as prefect Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105994 I have been reading the "Ron as Prefect post" since it started and I just wanted to ask one questions... Lets say "hypothetically" of course that when Dumbledore sat down and decided who was going to be the Gryffindor prefect he decided that it would "obviously" be Harry, because we all know that Ron doesn't deserve to breath the same air as wonderful, great, perfect Harry more or less receive a highly coveted position such as prefect over Harry... So in the fifth book how do you think Harry would act like, as prefect? Do you think he would have pinned on his prefect pin and all of a sudden turn into everything that Hermione, and Ernie would hope for, turn into the embodiment of all Percy stands for? Or do you think he would react the exact same way (if not similar) to the way Ron reacted? Because I can see Harry doing the same things that Ron did... I can see Harry being intimidated by the twins, finding having to deal with the first years annoying, what else did Ron do? (That wasn't a mistake on JKR's part) can't think of anything... Maybe because we really didn't get to see Ron while he was being prefect. Who's to say that Harry would have made a *better* prefect? Do you think that Harry would have jumped up in an instant to defend his ladylove, the one person who has ever been loyal to him, the one girl who knows him as no one else does, his perfect life partner, the girl of his dreams, smart, perfect, beautiful, can do no wrong... Harry's "other half"... errrr (rolls eyes) I mean Hermione, from the twins? Or do you think that he to would have coward behind a book? Because he just didn't want the confrontation with the twins (who would?)... I just don't think Harry would have "all of a sudden" turned into Percy, the embodiment of all things "prefect" but I guess it would be acceptable for Harry to act the way Ron did about his prefect duties, but not! Ron! I mean... has the boy died yet? Come on JKR save us all the pain of having to read about horrible, immature, "not loyal to Harry" Ron. kitten Who loves Ron, Harry, and Hermione equally... just feeling really sarcastic, and annoyed by that fact that if Harry does it, its OK, but if Ron does it, its Criminal; and how some H/Hr's "belittle" Ron to "up" their ship. From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Tue Jul 13 15:18:02 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:18:02 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105995 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > > But Snape has information that would interest some very powerful and > influential people *outside* the school. He can bring the whole lot > down on DD's head by just saying one word - "Werewolf" - in the right > place. The outcry from parents would be such that the Board of Govenors > wouldn't even bother to vote. DD would be out. > Do you really think he doesn't know this? > Carolyn: Perhaps the MoM/Fudge knew all about the Shrieking Shack incident and agreed to the cover up, so Snape/and his parents (?) knew there was no point saying anything? At the end of GOF, Fudge says to DD: (p 615) 'I've given you free rein always. I've had a lot of respect for you. I might not have agreed with some of your decisions, but I've kept quiet. There aren't many who'd have let you hire werewolves, or keep Hagrid..' Now, this is referring to hiring Lupin as DADA teacher obviously. At the time the Shrieking Shack incident occurred, Fudge was not Minister, and possibly not yet even Junior Minister in the Dept of Magical Catastrophes as he was at the time of GH. Perhaps at the time of the Shrieking Shack Fudge might have been just entering the MoM, at about Percy's age? Would it take him 5-6 yrs to become a Junior Minister? But he may have known of a Ministry decision to let DD deal with this situation at the school, and not intervene. After all, a lot of people in officialdom would have needed to know that a werewolf was being taught there - it would expose their decision as foolish if anyone got hurt. And we know they are fully capable of gagging the press if they want to. VW1 was also in full swing at the time of the incident, I wonder if that would have reduced the impact in the eyes of the MoM? If Snape turns out to have been from a family known for its support of the Dark Arts (which is likely, since he knew so much about them by the time he was 11), perhaps no one would have cared much if he had been killed by a werewolf? I can't see an auror like Moody losing much sleep over it, or Barty Crouch Sr, who was rising to fame at the time for his zero-tolerance approach to DEs. And as many have speculated, I could easily see this DD/MoM cover-up being a trigger to turn the furious teenage Snape into a Voldy- supporter as an initial way of getting revenge. Something brought him back later, but at the time, I can see DD handling him just as badly as he has Harry on other occasions. Yet another slip-up. Carolyn From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Jul 13 15:39:21 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:39:21 -0000 Subject: Why Sirius was Chosen as Godparent & Sirius' sacrifice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105996 Vivian: > from website search: > Romans 6:3-5 > Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ > Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him > by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by > the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if > we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly > be united with him in a resurrection like his. > > This is the Biblical way to be born again to new life. If Lily's > ancient magic was activated during the ceremony that initiated Sirius > as the godfather, then perhaps this ceremony also activated the extra > protection for Harry -- Sirius Black. Jen: Reading that passage gave me shivers, Vivian. It's a powerful thought that James, Lily and Sirius may have been 'connected in death' as well as in life. Wonder what the equivalent to baptism is in the WW? Ancient magic seems to have a spiritual basis, since the few examples we have explore a bond between people. Like Lily's sacrifice conveying protection on Harry, and the life debt idea. Why use the term Godparent at all, if Sirius' role is purely secular? 'Guardian' would cover his legal role. Jen Reese From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Tue Jul 13 16:15:06 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:15:06 -0000 Subject: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105997 >>> Finwitch wrote: > Snape's not nasty at Draco, is he? Or Slytherins for that matter? > Mostly, he takes his own grudge from decades back on Harry and > (occasionally) on Neville. <<< Brenda now: But Slytherin students don't give Snape reasons to treat them nasty, do they? They appear to be decent students in Potions class (in Snape's eyes), following him with much respect. Draco clearly admires Snape (he wants him to be Hogwarts Headmaster) and I doubt *any* teacher can resist to show even slightest favorism towards his "pet" students. I do believe Snape is 'acting' to a degree, as suggested by some posters. The fact that he despises Harry probably makes it much easier for him to go along with it. I highly doubt that he will like Harry given different circumstances, but his actions seem to be *exaggerated* to entertain the Malfoy & co. He probably justifies his verbal abuse that way, it's a win-win situation for Snape. >>> Finwitch; I disagree. Snape told Harry to clear his mind, but he NEVER told him how to do that. In fact, I think Harry was unable to concentrate - to clear his mind. He was too tired due to lack of sleep and loss of blood (and that's Dumbridge's fault), and only way Harry managed to go on, was living on adrenaline until he finally fainted during OWL exam. He even told Snape he had trouble with that... (AND Snape was making it harder). <<< Brenda: I agree with you to some degree. Although I myself believe the failure of Occlumency lessons lies more heavily on Harry's part, Snape did not give Harry instruction as to *HOW* to do it. But comparing Snape's Occlumency lessons to Lupin's Patronus lessons doesn't make sense to me (Harry *initiated* the lesson, he liked Lupin, etc.) -- Crouch's Imperio lessons are more suitable for comparison. I wonder if Snape heard about Harry being able to fight off Imperius curse and presumed he didn't need to be told how. Seems like a similar branch of magic to me... >>> Finwitch; Further, not only were Snape's feelings and immaturity getting into the way of Harry's learning... I think Harry was right: Snape was making it _worse_. <<< Brenda: Didn't Hermione suggest that perhaps it's like fighting a cold? That you *need* to be sick first to be able to fight it? Nice parallel running through physical vs. mental immune system, don't you think? >>> Finwitch: I think that, someone bearing Voldemort's mark makes this Legilimens-contact on Harry, who ALSO has a link... well, I think Voldemort got involved - or at least, LV's obsession for the prophecy got trough first time, because Snape's Dark Mark strenghtened the signal. (I think this also happened when Harry's scar hurt during the first book, when Snape AND Quirrelmort were there (While Voldemort was hiding inside Quirrell's turban)! (And that rat...) The scar never hurt during Harry's DADA class, after all.. <<< Brenda: That is a very interesting suggestion, Finwitch. The Dark Mark-VM-Harry's Scar connection, I like it. Remember when the scar hurt very painfully, JKR sometimes described it as (something to the effect of) 'it was almost ripping his forehead'? I wonder if this will actually happen if he gets next VM and DEs for long enough. >>> Finwitch: Harry was able to put down LV's hatred (which Dumbledore feared and thus avoided Harry) because well, Harry LIKES Dumbledore, nor would he ever willingly kill anyone, so it's easy to recognise as NOT his. <<< Not to mention his grieving for loss of Sirius. >>> Finwitch: > Harry wasn't, however, able to put down LV's obsession about the > corridor - partly because he was *curious* about it (Albus' old > error; he should have told Harry... so Harry would have either not > been curious or ASKED about it, rather than seeking out for > himself...) <<< Brenda: [afraid of opening *that* can of worms...] I still think it was better that DD told Harry late than early (at least AFTER Harry practiced Occlumency to some degree). I have argued this before and gotten other opinions, but not to my satisfaction. The content of prophecy is overwhelming, extremely so for a young teenage wizard (no matter how powerful he is). I believe knowing it (without being able to control his mind/emotions) would have left Harry extremely vulnerable to Voldemort. I think VM could have easily access the intel if Harry learned it beforehand. At least, this way, VM still doesn't know the full content of the prophecy. Also, *even if* DD had told Harry of the prophecy, he wouldn't necessarily say "oh by the way, the record is kept at DoM and VM might trick your mind for you to go after it". After all, DD didn't realize just how DEEPLY Harry and VM's connection runs. It was only after Arthur's near death experience that both parties realized it, and was too late by then. Sigh, ONLY IF Harry had told Sirius about his Frank-Bryce dream in the beginning of GoF... Brenda From ExSlytherin at aol.com Tue Jul 13 16:18:52 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:18:52 -0000 Subject: Dudley as HBP??!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105998 > Jake wrote: > Even if Petunia is a witch (and she may be), Dudley would only be a half-blood if Lily and Petunia's parents (i.e., Harry and Dudley's grandparents) were magic-folk. This seems unlikely since (as stated before), Harry is suppose to be a half-blood and would not be a half-blood if Lily's parents were magic-folk (he would be a pure- blood). > Sooooooooooooo, since Lily and Petunia's parents were muggles, then > the only way Dudley can be a half-blood is if Vernon is a pureblood > or if he at least had magic-folk parents and is a wizard himself > (highly unlikely). > Ergo, Dudley cannot be a half-blood and is, in my opinion, an > unlikely pick for half blood prince (if that means what we think it > means). Does this make sense? Mandy here: There has been a huge amount of discussion on the exact meaning of half-blood on this site in the past, and I'm sure you can find some posts, which explain this a lot better than I can if you do a search. Basically, in the WW, if you are anything other than a pureblood or a mudblood, you are considered a half-blood. The key is to not take the word half in half-blood so literally. There are no further distinctions within the halfblood level of being. We know this as both Harry Potter and Tom Riddle are called halfbloods in the canon, but Tom and Harry parents differ magically. Harry has two magical parents, but a mother was muggle born, and Tom Riddle has a witch for a mother and a muggle father. It follows the creed that if there is just one drop of non-magical blood in your family line, you are considered non-pure or half- blooded. Cheers Mandy From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 16:25:26 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:25:26 -0000 Subject: Name clue: did Rosier seduce Florence? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 105999 Yep, Florence again. In post #105599 I surmised that Evan Rosier (a Slytherin, later a DE who was killed by aurors) is one of the prime suspects of kissing Florence and hexing Bertha. Here is what the HP Lexicon has to say about the origin of the name Rosier: "Rosier, according to medieval demonology texts, is the patron devil of seduction. He tempts humans to fall in love and causes them to act foolish" Hmmm, the lexicon said it, not me... Neri From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Tue Jul 13 16:42:54 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:42:54 -0000 Subject: Prefects and points In-Reply-To: <40F45795.1131.2DD0B9D@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106000 >> Cathy wrote: >> JKR is wrong...she made another mistake. >> I don't know where the mistake came in, but it is not Ron's fault >> as she claims. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>snippage<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > Shaun wrote: > Actually, my view, which I've mentioned before, is that to > reconcile these problems, I think a possible solution is that > prefects are allowed to take points from their own house, but are > not permitted to take them from other houses. > > This would match Percy being able to take points from Ron, but > would make Draco's power to take points from those in other houses > new and unusual. --------- Arya now: I like this idea and this was how I had reasoned the points worked after the comments of OotP came out. It was JKR's FAQ comment that made it seem so much simpler, like 'prefects take points--period'. But, this simple, house-limited point-taking scheme idea makes everything still just as simple (not as immediately apparent though because it's not stated in canon) but even more importantly--logical. ---------- {SNIPPAGE} > Shaun wrote: > That still means there's a discrepancy with JKRs FAQ answer - but > as it seems clear she was relying on a faulty memory of what she > wrote, I don't think that's that surprising. > > Maybe Ron (in her mind) hasn't been authoritarian, and hasn't taken > any points - so to her, when asked this question, she thinks "Why > did I write that - it must be because I thought he might not know > this." --------------------- Arya now: I do think there is something to be said for the fact that JKR answered this question with Ron looking like the one in the wrong. If it was a reader, like you or I who made this comment, it would be our posibly biased view or image of him leading us to this conclusion; but it's JKR answering a frequently asked question in a situation where she isn't rushed to answer or put on the spot--she has time to check things over, think things over and to just perfectly word her answers and upload to her own site (and correct if she is wrong). So, the notion that JKR (as I think Cathy said) is "wrong" and giving Ron a bad rap is possibly a bit presumptuous of us readers. I've always seen Ron as the comic relief of the trio (not a burgeoning general who's ought to be Head Boy and a Quidditch Captain) and the constant defense and insistance to build him up as an equal or even higher character than Harry is baffling to me. So when JKR answers her question, whether it's off the cuff or long-thought out, and blames Ron's ignorance on something that seems quite basic, I think JKR has also inadvertanly confirmed (at least for those like me who've always thought it) that Ron is the type of person who would be ignorant on these sorts of things (usually through his own lack of effort). Oh there are all sorts of legions of Ron-o-philes out there who will come out now and protest his worth and wit but, IMO, that's a lot of speculation on what he *could* be and not on what he is. And I personally see JKR's comment fingering Ron and only Ron as "not a very authoritarian" prefect who knew the rules as a confirmation that JKR intends Ron to be not the brightest prefect in the bunch--which just happens to fit the view I've had of him all along. If she changes her answer on the site, then I'm wrong, but I think some Ron-defenders need to just posibly conceive of the notion that he really is just meant to be the sidekick/comic relief/best mate/support to Harry the-books-are-titled-after-me Potter. Arya From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Tue Jul 13 16:41:10 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:41:10 -0000 Subject: The Trichotomy-Prophecy -- the answer -- the end ...... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106001 Aye, Samnanya, good to have you back! >>> Pat wrote -- What if: > The one = Harry Potter > The Dark Lord = Lord Voldemort > The other = Neville Longbottom > >>> Samnanya responded: [snipping every now and then] > IMO Dumbledore's comments in the awards banquet in Sorcerors Stone contain THE vital clue as to how the series ends. > It was not an accident that Dumbledore praises Neville the > highest by saving him for last for praise and giving him > the 10 points for his ability to Stand Up to His Friends that > secured the House Cup for Gryffindor during the first year. > On first reading, the trio got far more points for seemingly > far more difficult tasks, yet Neville was saved for last. > In fact it was Nevilles points that secured the victory in > Dumbledore's eyes - not HRH. > > The clue that solves it all...... > > Now to the prophecy. What I think happens in the end is > that Harry confronts LV and defeats him bodily, but in the > process the non-corporeal LV takes over Harry's body as he > did briefly in OOP. HarryMort then raises holy hell all over > the wizarding world becasue no one can bring themselves to > kill him ----- until Neville "stands up to his friend" and > defeats Voldemort by defeating HarryMort in the final battle. > > Neville stood up to Harry once before in an event that was > all but forgotten, until Dumbledore pointed it out, and then > was promptly forgotten again! Brenda now: Someone has mentioned (Vivian, was it?) that Vapour!Mort passing through Harry at the end of PS/SS would probably be how Harry will die at the end of series. Your theory ties in very nicely with this, and the importance of Neville and his unusual courage (despite of being constantly teased and insecure). I love it! I really don't have much to add to your theory, just needed an excuse to say HI. > But like all hidden clues, Neville's ability will save the > the Wizarding World in Book 7, when he is able to stand up > to HarryMort WHEN NOONE ELSE CAN. Even Dumbledore admits he > has a weak spot when dealing with Harry and his faiures in > that area are the few we are privy to. So mark my words, > Neville will be VERY important in the prophecy, and indeed, > the question mark on the orb was not there accidentally either. Uh-huh... [nodding] >>> Samnanya wrote: > Hermione met Neville before she met Harry and helped him > search for Trevor. Once she met Harry their friendship > started to bloom and though she cared for Neville, she > clearly fancied Harry more. If you believe in the cycle > theory, then Neville "gets her back again" after Harry is > gone, though she will remember Harry forever even as she > is with Neville. <<< Brenda: Heh, I do not want to get into SHIP debate here, but knighty- Ron won't stay put if both Harry and Neville are... enough said. Besides, JKR had said this is HER story. No matter how much other tales have influenced her, she won't necessarily follow their paths, IMO. >>> Samnanya wrote: > [snip] plow through my logic [or lack thereof] and rip it to shreds just like Evil!Lupin would {just kidding...) <<< Brenda -- speaking of which, how's the search for ESE!Lupin going ;P? (sorry to rub it in, just REALLY anxious to find out!) HELP! From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 17:20:18 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:20:18 -0000 Subject: JKR should have checked the Lexicon, was Ron as prefect In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106002 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" > wrote: > > A quick note from a list L.O.O.N., ... > > > You know, JKR should probably have nipped into an internet > > cafe and checked the book before she wrote that comment. Because > >in the book, it is not only Ron, but also Ernie MacMillan and > >Hermione having the conversation with Draco, where outrage and > >disbelief are expressed that Draco, prefect, is docking points.< > > > Pippin: > > Speculation: > ... Let's say that, technically, prefects were allowed to dock > points, but by the time of our story this has fallen into disfavor > and subsequently been forgotten. Rules-mad Percy is keen > enough on his duties to discover this forgotten privilege and try to > implement it ...) > > It doesn't catch on--in fact the senior Gryffindor prefects are > horrified as they imagine what the Slytherin prefects would do > with the ability to dock points if they knew they had it and they > prevail on Percy not to do it again. > > > If Umbridge could change the rules to allow the Inquisitorial > Squad to deduct points, she also could change them so that > prefects can't. Hermione knows this and stays silent. ... > > Pippin Asian_lovr2: I posted on this too last night, although, no responses yet. No point in repeating myself but I will post the quote from the book. Date: Tue Jul 13, 2004 1:26 am Subject: Re: Ron as prefect? JKR's Big Mistake -Interview http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/105951 --- Quote - OotP - Am Ed Hb pg 625-626 --- 'Afraid I'm going to have to dock a few points from Gryffindor and Hufflepuff,' he (Draco) drawled. 'It's only teachers who can dock points from Houses, Malfoy,' said Ernie at once.[<---ERNIE!] 'Yeah, we're prefects, too, remember?' snarled Ron. 'I know prefects can't dock points, Weasel King,' sneered Malfoy. Crabbe and Goyle sniggered. 'But members of the Inquisitorial Squad -' [note: Ernie says Prefects can't and Draco confirms it.] `The what?' said Hermione sharply. [note: Hermione does not contradict Draco on the issue of Prefect taking points.] 'The Inquisitorial Squad, Granger,' said Malfoy, pointing towards a tiny silver 'I' on his robes just beneath his prefect's badge. '...edited... Draco docking specific points....'. Ron pulled out his wand, but Hermione pushed it away, whispering, 'Don't!' 'Wise move, Granger,' breathed Malfoy. 'New Head, new times be good now, Potty Weasel King ' Laughing heartily, he strode away with Crabbe and Goyle. 'He was bluffing,' said Ernie, looking appalled. 'He can't be allowed to dock points... that would be ridiculous... it would completely undermine the prefect system.' [Again, Ernie confirms that Prefects can't take points.] - - - End quote - - - Ernie indeed says that '...only teachers can dock points from Houses...'. Draco confirms this, 'I know prefects can't dock points...'. Ron implies confirmation, '...we're prefects, too...'. Hermione responds with 'What?' with regard to the 'Inquisitorial Squad', so she is obvious not aware of any changes Umbridge may have made, and she doesn't challange either Ernie or Draco on the point. The scene ends with Ernie restating that Prefect can't dock points, 'He can't be allowed to dock points... ...it would completely undermine the prefect system'. When it is stated and implied by several characters, it becomes difficult to dispute. JKR statements are equally difficult to accept when she attributes the reference to the wrong person. Ron only implies agreement, but Ernie and Draco say it flat out, and Hermione doesn't disagree with them. When docking points has been discussed in the past, several people suggested that Prefects can only dock points from their own House, that prevents them from abusing their power the way Draco does. This could be extended by speculating that a Prefect could take their case to their own Head of House or the Head of another House if they felt points should be dock from a House other than their own. However, it seems very logical that Prefect would be able to dock points. Docking points seems a far less harsh and more incremental punishment than Detention, and it seems that most detentions are supervised by teachers. Teachers certainly wouldn't want that additional burden, so point docking would seem to be the ideal power to give Prefects to control their Houses. As pointed out in my other post, interviews and chats should be considered 'canon-ish' since they really don't allow room for an on-going dialog. If the person who asked JKR the original question had been allowed to ask follow up questions and ask for clarification, they way you can in regular conversation, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. Conclusion; JKR is wrong. For what it's worth. Steve/asian_lovr2 From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 17:21:13 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:21:13 -0000 Subject: Prefects and points In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106003 Arya wrote : > I do think there is something to be said for the fact that > JKR answered this question with Ron looking like the one in the > wrong. > If it was a reader, like you or I who made this comment, it would be > our posibly biased view or image of him leading us to this > conclusion; but it's JKR answering a frequently asked question in a > situation where she isn't rushed to answer or put on the spot--she > has time to check things over, think things over and to just > perfectly word her answers and upload to her own site (and correct if > she is wrong). So, the notion that JKR (as I think Cathy said) is > "wrong" and giving Ron a bad rap is possibly a bit presumptuous of us > readers. Del replies : Except, as others have pointed out, that she *did* make a mistake. She accused *Ron* of not knowing his rules, when in fact it's *Ernie* who made a mistake. Ron confirmed Ernie's mistake, along with Draco, and Hermione didn't contradict them. I don't even know why she got on Ron, he wasn't even mentioned in the question. It *really* looks like she was out there to give Ron in particular a bad rap. Later Arya wrote : > And I personally see JKR's comment fingering Ron and only Ron as "not > a very authoritarian" prefect who knew the rules as a confirmation > that JKR intends Ron to be not the brightest prefect in the bunch-- Del replies : That's the thing that bothers me most. There were *four* Prefects out there who didn't seem to know that Prefects can dock points. 2 of them are admittedly very bright (Hermione and Ernie), one would just have loved to dock points off other Houses so it's quite certain that he wouldn't forget such a piece of information (Draco), and then there's Ron. Yes, it *is* in character for Ron not to pay attention, or not to really want to do his job seriously. But the point is : he wasn't the only one who didn't know. So why (WHY ???) did JKR get on his case, and on his case only ? There's only one word for it : unfair. Arya wrote : > I've always seen Ron as the comic relief of the trio (not a > burgeoning general who's ought to be Head Boy and a Quidditch > Captain) and the constant defense and insistance to build him up as > an equal or even higher character than Harry is baffling to me. (snip) > Oh there are all sorts of legions of Ron-o-philes out there who will > come out now and protest his worth and wit but, IMO, that's a lot of > speculation on what he *could* be and not on what he is. (snip) > but I think some Ron-defenders need to just posibly conceive of the > notion that he really is just meant to be the sidekick/comic > relief/best mate/support to Harry the-books-are-titled-after-me > Potter. Del replies : Do you know why I would HATE (and I mean HATE !!!!) for Ron to be "just comic relief" ? Because Ron is the only one of the Trio who is normal. Hermione is a gross exxageration of the smart kid, and Harry is the typical hero who always gets things right. But Ron is like most of us : not overly intelligent, not overly studious, not overly lucky, and not the hero of the game. *But* he has ambition, he *wants* to become someone, to prove himself, just like most of us. So if he turned out to be there just for fun, the message I would get out of it all would be : "Sorry, if you're not born special, you will never become so. You'll always be just a joke. You'll never be the hero of anything. It's not even worth trying, because it won't happen." And I just happen to HATE that sort of message. It would right away turn me off HP (both the books and the character). Del From McGregorMax at ec.rr.com Tue Jul 13 17:14:57 2004 From: McGregorMax at ec.rr.com (mcmaxslb) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:14:57 -0000 Subject: The Trichotomy-Prophecy -- the answer -- the end ...... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106004 --- Samnanya wrote: > IMO Dumbledore's comments in the awards banquet in > Sorcerors Stone contain THE vital clue as to > how the series ends. > > It was not an accident that Dumbledore praises Neville the > highest by saving him for last for praise and giving him > the 10 points for his ability to Stand Up to His Friends that > secured the House Cup for Gryffindor during the first year. > > ... Why did DD do that? What was > his message? What clue did JKR leave us ? > > The clue that solves it all............... > > Now to the prophecy. What I think happens in the end is > that Harry confronts LV and defeats him bodily, but in the > process the non-corporeal LV takes over Harry's body as he > did briefly in OOP. HarryMort then raises holy hell all over > the wizarding world becasue noone can bring themselves to > kill him ----- until Neville "stands up to his friend" and > defeats Voldemort by defeating HarryMort in the final battle. > > Neville stood up to Harry once before in an event that was > all but forgotten, until Dumbledore pointed it out, and then > was promptly forgotten again! > > ...> NOw for the end of the series.......... > Whether Harry dies or Neville dies while freeing Harry from > the occupancy of the Dark Lord is impossible to determine at > this point, but I am certain that one of them dies and the > other ends up with Hermione and lives happily ever after. > > Hermione met Neville before she met Harry and helped him > search for Trevor. Once she met Harry their friendship > started to bloom and though she cared for Neville, she > clearly fancied Harry more. If you believe in the cycle > theory, then Neville "gets her back again" after Harry is > gone, though she will remember Harry forever even as she > is with Neville. > > So ..... in the end of the series .... > > 1 - either Harry or Neville die, and > 2 - Hermione ends up with the survivor. Yeah and if the books were called 'Neville Longbottom and ...' I might go along with it. But the books are called 'Harry Potter and...' aren't they? McMax From lb140900 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 17:32:40 2004 From: lb140900 at yahoo.com (Louis Badalament) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:32:40 -0000 Subject: Why Fret About Voldemort Considering Riddle? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106005 Alright, here's something I don't understand... In Book 5, Harry feels guilty about the possibility that he'll kill Voldemort; --- "It was very hard to believe as he sat here that his life must include, or end in, murder..." --- But my question is... why? Why does he even *feel* this guilt? Remember book 2? He killed Tom Riddle easily enough. He was, in fact, rather proud of the accomplishment, even years later... --- "WHO SAVED THE PHILOSOPHER'S STONE? WHO GOT RID OF RIDDLE?" --- No one, no where, in any the books, has ever suggested that ending Riddle's strange quasi-life was the slightest bit dishonorable. True... Riddle was something of a ghost (a 'memory' for all you nitpickers,) but Voldermort's not exactly a human being either, no matter whether we're speaking figuratively or literally, either. My question, then, stands as such: why can't Harry, at that pivotal moment when he's finally faced with Voldemort for the ultimate Big Showdown just treat the matter as though he's facing an older, uglier Tom Riddle, (which he is), and just do away with him, as you or I would do away with any cockroach - free of guilt? Voldemort certainly isn't worth any prickle of shame - except in regards of failure to act. - Louis Badalament P.S.: Harry also didn't seem to have any qualms about ending Bellatrix Lestrange's life, either; --- 'SHE KILLED SIRIUS!' bellowed Harry. 'SHE KILLED HIM, I'LL KILL HER!' And he was off, scrambling up the stone benches... --- No sympathy for the one who killed his godfather, and yet Harry feels regrets about killing the one who murdered his father and mother? It's all very weird to me. From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Tue Jul 13 17:40:31 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:40:31 -0000 Subject: Prefects and points In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106006 Del wrote: I don't even know why she got on Ron, he wasn't even mentioned in the question. It *really* looks like she was out there to give Ron in particular a bad rap. ---------- But then doesn't this tell you something??? This, to me, seems like a very good clue to "authorial intent". ------------------ > Del wrote: > Do you know why I would HATE (and I mean HATE !!!!) for Ron to be > "just comic relief" ? Because Ron is the only one of the Trio who is > normal. Hermione is a gross exxageration of the smart kid, and Harry > is the typical hero who always gets things right. --------- So why, though, is so difficult to conceive of the notion that Ron is an exxaggeration of the "average" to the point where his juxtapositioning beside Harry and Hermione results in comic relief??? -------------- Del wrote: But Ron is like most of us : not overly intelligent, not overly studious, not overly lucky, and not the hero of the game. *But* he has ambition, he *wants* to become someone, to prove himself, just like most of us. So if he turned out to be there just for fun, the message I would get out of it all would be : "Sorry, if you're not born special, you will never become so. You'll always be just a joke. You'll never be the hero of anything. It's not even worth trying, because it won't happen." And I just happen to HATE that sort of message. It would right away turn me off HP (both the books and the character). --------------- But, but, but....if Ron doesn't remain just "normal" and he has to change and become more than "comic relief" then doesn't that say that the normal guy is nothing? There's an awful lot to be said for the average guy and it does take a certain type of courage to be content with being just who you are (as opposed to trying to be more and appear more in the eyes of others). Even HArry says at the end of GoF, "wer're going to need some laughs". It's not easy to just be average and be happy and happy enough to joke around and to in the shadow of Harry (and even Hermione). So I think Ron's got his cross to bear (this shadow) and he doesn't NEED to rise up and shine in a bright and glorious way so that the last book has to be called "Harry, Ron and Hermione: The Most Equal of Friends". All Ron's need to do is endure to be there at Harry's side and *that* will make him a hero in his own right. We all have paths, we all have some purpose--not everyone is meant to walk in front and lead--someone has to walk behind and follow. There *is* heroism in accepting the simple path before you and not forsaking it for the pursuit of one's own glory. Harry *needs* his friends and I can see Ron having a test of his character in having to decided to remain at Harry's side and in his shadow versus pursuing the fame that Harry has which he envies so. Arya From rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu Tue Jul 13 17:40:13 2004 From: rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu (susanbones2003) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:40:13 -0000 Subject: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books/only ifs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106007 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brenda M." wrote: > > Also, *even if* DD had told Harry of the prophecy, he wouldn't > necessarily say "oh by the way, the record is kept at DoM and VM > might trick your mind for you to go after it". After all, DD didn't > realize just how DEEPLY Harry and VM's connection runs. It was only > after Arthur's near death experience that both parties realized it, > and was too late by then. Sigh, ONLY IF Harry had told Sirius about > his Frank-Bryce dream in the beginning of GoF... > > > Brenda Your last paragraph brings up something that I've always wanted to count: the "ONLY IFS." What if Harry had made the decision to ask an adult about something bothering him, or used something at his disposal, or not gone somewhere. The list goes one. Does anyone want to contribute to the ONLY IFS list? 1. Telling Sirius about the Frank Bryce dream. 2. Telling Dumbledore his dreams in OOTP. From squeakinby at tds.net Tue Jul 13 17:51:38 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:51:38 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40F4212A.7030304@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 106008 delwynmarch wrote: > Del blinks, gulps, her eyes start misting over, and next thing she > knows she's bawling her heart out : > > BWAAAAAHHHH !!! BWAAH-AAAA-AAAA-AAAHH !! > > Jem waits stoically for this outburst to subside... > Thank you, I needed that laugh today. > *gulp* *sob* *gulp* > > (tremulous voice) H-h-honestly, Jem, *sob*, have you N-N-N-NO heart !? > How c-c-can you, *sob*, say s-s-such a *horrible* thing !? There, there. He's not dying and neither is Harry for my 2 knuts worth. I think Ron's fine and he's going to triumph in a way that will surprise some. JKR has very nicely avoided what I call the Hollywood syndrome. This is when every hero has a compatriot that is a friend, a corsage, a handservant, standing alongside and nodding, supporting and eventually dying (most H'wood movies, TOP GUN comes to mind) in order to give the hero the extra push to victory. I don't see this happening at all. Wands at the ready, d' you suppose? Jem From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Tue Jul 13 15:29:05 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:29:05 -0000 Subject: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106009 Pippin: > > Nope, I don't think it would have worked even if Lupin had taught > Harry. Nothing to do with ESE!Lupin theory here, just that even > after Harry made some progress at Occlumency, he never tried > to use it to control the dreams or to keep himself from dwelling > on what he saw in them. >SNIP> > It doesn't really matter that the vision of Sirius was false--even if Sirius had truly been held captive, Harry shouldn't have gone after him. Aggie: You could be right. I guess the crux of it all was that Harry didn't have all the information he needed. It has been said that had Harry been informed of the possibility of LV trying to hijack his mind and about the prophecy he wouldn't have had the urge to find out for himself. I guess I feel that Lupin might have had a better chance than Snape, but unless he told Harry the truth, on reflection, that does seem doubtful! From cmtebb at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 16:02:39 2004 From: cmtebb at yahoo.com (cmtebb) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:02:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040713160239.81090.qmail@web20422.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106010 Paul: Only HP saw > the raw face of > war and cruelty and only he is destined to become > murderer or a > corpse. That's the story and that is where we must > focus people. HP > series is not mainly a teenage love story. It is the > Odyssey of HP. > > Cheers, > Paul > cmtebb: Harry is one of few who have seen evil to what it can be, but the books are a focus on his life which unfortunatley includes the HP/LV conflict, and the life of a teenager includes the love. Therefore, it is going to be a major part in the upcoming books. If you don't believe me: (World Book Day chat) polly weasley: Will Harry fall for another girl in book six, or will he be too busy for romance? JK Rowling replies -> He'll be busy, but what's life without a little romance? And as I said, Harry isn't the only one who has seen true evil, Ginny Weasley with the diary in CoS. I think that because of that, they would be perfect for eachother. cmtebb __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 15:03:18 2004 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:03:18 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius Lure Severus into the Whomping Willow? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106011 > mhbobbin: > > I'm just wondering if James became Head Boy because he rescued > Snape? And perhaps because Remus was removed as Prefect. Not > necessarily because of anything he had done--perhaps it just wasn't > political to keep him as Prefect after this episode. > > I think that these two events--the Whomping Willow episode and James > becoming Head Boy--may be related. Finwitch: Indeed. James strongly disapproved of Dark Arts (it was Dark Arts, not Defence Against Dark Arts) and Sirius as well... Snape, however, "knew more curses when he came than most do at the end of 7th year" - and it seems to me, is an addict to Dark Arts - so of course Snape became their enemy. It could have been idealistic at first, but became personal as the 'war' went on. (And at the highest puberty, just something to pass the time?) And as reckless, thoughtless and whatnot as Sirius and James were, I don't know how Sirius lured Snape into the Shack - was it even by intention? They did _not_ know any Dark Arts. Anyway, I do believe Lupin to have resigned as a prefect after that; (well, he DID resign from his post as a teacher...). However, James had *saved* the life of a student. Saved the life of one student he still cursed when Lily wasn't there, the one student he had spent his time bullying, one against whom he had a few strong opinions? And he saves this persons life - at the risk of his own (then again, James thought the risk made it fun). But he saved Severus Snape. (And Snape didn't even get bitten!) If anything would make one worthy of a position - even one who used to not care - it was this. Saving a friend is one thing, but saving your enemy? Finwitch From meriaugust at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 17:55:20 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:55:20 -0000 Subject: Why Fret About Voldemort Considering Riddle? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106012 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Louis Badalament" wrote: > > Alright, here's something I don't understand... > > In Book 5, Harry feels guilty about the possibility that he'll > kill Voldemort; > > --- > "It was very hard to believe as he sat here that his life must > include, or end in, murder..." > > --- > > But my question is... why? Why does he even *feel* this guilt? > Remember book 2? He killed Tom Riddle easily enough. He was, in > fact, rather proud of the accomplishment, even years later... > > --- > > "WHO SAVED THE PHILOSOPHER'S STONE? WHO GOT RID OF RIDDLE?" > > --- > > No one, no where, in any the books, has ever suggested that ending > Riddle's strange quasi-life was the slightest bit dishonorable. > True... Riddle was something of a ghost (a 'memory' for all you > nitpickers,) but Voldermort's not exactly a human being either, no > matter whether we're speaking figuratively or literally, either. > > My question, then, stands as such: why can't Harry, at that pivotal > moment when he's finally faced with Voldemort for the ultimate Big > Showdown just treat the matter as though he's facing an older, > uglier Tom Riddle, (which he is), and just do away with him, as you > or I would do away with any cockroach - free of guilt? Voldemort > certainly isn't worth any prickle of shame - except in regards of > failure to act. > > - Louis Badalament > > P.S.: Harry also didn't seem to have any qualms about ending > Bellatrix Lestrange's life, either; > > --- > > 'SHE KILLED SIRIUS!' bellowed Harry. 'SHE KILLED HIM, I'LL KILL HER!' > And he was off, scrambling up the stone benches... > > --- > > No sympathy for the one who killed his godfather, and yet Harry > feels regrets about killing the one who murdered his father and > mother? It's all very weird to me. Meri now: Well, can we all just agree that Harry's pretty warped emotionally during the end of Order? No? Okay, we'll here's my musings on the subject. First off, if it counts as "killing" Riddle in CoS (which I don't think it does because he wasn't technically alive) that is definately defensible as self-defense. Riddle was slowly killing Ginny and was advancing on Harry with a drawn wand. Harry had no choice but to do what he did, or he and Ginny would have been dead instead. Secondly, look what Harry was dealing with at the end of Order. He had spent the entire year being hounded by the WW, called crazy and an attention seeking prat. He had been forced into weekly torture sessions (Occlumency lessons) with a man who hates him. He was having massive relationship problems, was haunted by guilt, and he had just led five of his classmates into a life or death battle. Then he watches his big brother/godfather/father figure/best friend die at the hands of a psycho DE. So I think Harry's a little entitled to freak out and want to go after Bellatrix. My point being in all this is that he doesn't actually kill her. Thirdly, and here's the thing, when Harry makes that statement about killing LV being murder, he's had a few days to calm down. He's not nescessarily faced with a self-defense situation, nor one in which someone he cares about is directly in danger. IMHO, in Harry's mind at this point the prophecy doesn't mean that he'll have to face LV in battle, but might perhaps have to go after LV like an assassin. Harry could possibly have to attack first, and Harry not being a terribly violent guy, is probably slightly repulsed at that. I think that this shows that Harry, despite what he's been through has a pretty solid moral compass. How many people do you think will try to convince him that killing LV, the one who killed James and Lily and Cedric and all those other people, wouldn't be murder but a justifiable act? Ron for one, I think. And that's fine for them, but remember, Harry's the one who has to pull the triger, so to speak, and live with the fact that he ended someone else's life, as despicable as that person's life has been. After all, Harry couldn't even kill Sirius or Pettigrew. So, that's just my two knuts. Sorry for the rambling. Meri - who if she could would be desperately trying to convince Harry that killing LV wouldn't be murder, and hoping ferverently that she would be unsuccessful... From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Tue Jul 13 17:55:01 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:55:01 -0000 Subject: Why Fret About Voldemort Considering Riddle? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106013 >>> Louis Badalament wrote: > Alright, here's something I don't understand... > > In Book 5, Harry feels guilty about the possibility that he'll > kill Voldemort; > --- > "It was very hard to believe as he sat here that his life must > include, or end in, murder..." > --- > But my question is... why? Why does he even *feel* this guilt? > Remember book 2? He killed Tom Riddle easily enough. He was, in > fact, rather proud of the accomplishment, even years later... > [snipping rest of the relevant points] <<< Brenda now: I have always considered this as the fact that Harry just realized he is indeed the Marked One. More like Harry registering the shock that his legacy is far beyond 'normal'. Not because some psychopath cockroach!crook went even madder and decided to come after some random teenager boy who looks like him, but because it had been pre- destined and prophecized that this is HArry's faith -- either the victim or the murderer. Also, Harry learning the prophecy (and giving him the idea that he must kill Voldemort somehow) makes him plan out the murder, either consciously or unconsciously. In case of Memory!TR or Bellatrix after Sirius' death, it was the case of self defence OR heat-of-moment, provoked anger that filled him up with murderous intentions. I'm not saying it will not be self-defence when Harry kills Voldemort at the end (IF he does, that is). But now that Harry has learned the true nature of his destiny, he is bound to ponder on this. And this will make the final murder more cold-blooded in nature than the previous hot-blooded ones (intentions). Brenda From hallisallimalli at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 16:12:04 2004 From: hallisallimalli at yahoo.com (halli) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:12:04 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat doesn't sort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106014 > happybean98: > > Harry was lucky. How many people meet their best friend on the > *first* day of school? Heck, this wasn't even the first day, this was > the day before. Rather lucky, eh? (especially considering that Ron is > the first person Harry is ever friends with). I'm not saying its > unbelievable, just probably not the case for other kids. (snip) Halli: I don't think Harry was an exeptional case. I met my best friends, a whole group of them, on the first day of high school and weve been friends for years. We were all introduced to each other and just hit it off, all 6 of us. I don't see why that should be considered lucky for Harry, especially considering his popularity, before he even got his letter. He did vanquish the Dark Lord after all. Who wouldn't want a friend like that? From cmtebb at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 16:11:31 2004 From: cmtebb at yahoo.com (cmtebb) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:11:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040713161131.41557.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106015 Del: > No, I don't think Ron's only choice is to d-die, > really not. All he > needs is to get out of the shadows of his b-brothers > and Harry. Well, > his brothers have already left Hogwarts, so that's > one m-mega-big > shadow removed. And as for Harry... Well, Ron would > just need to be > given something *very important* to do *alone*, or > at least not with > Harry, something where people would have to admit > that Ron did it > without the slightest help from Harry. And of > course, Ron has already > been given the perfect tool for that : the Prefect > badge. cmtebb: but Ron has already been given that, hasn't he? He proved himself at the Quidditch Cup. He wasn't in the shadow of Harry and he blocked all those goals /himself/, without anyone. On another note, you don't think Ron will die? I have been convinced, sadly. This is from The North Tower and editorial by Maline Freden and mugglenet.com "Reason 2: McGonagall's Chess game This is a theory that I received quite some time ago from Dora and Gally. Clumsy in general as I am, I lost their e-mail address, so I couldn't write them back about it. I'll just hope that they don't mind me using it. :-) Everything in italics is part of the message they sent me. (The passage is PS p. 204-206 UK paperback edition by the way.) "Rowling always had a good sense of humour ;-). She described the Second Wizard War in the McGonagall's chess game. The chessmen (chessmen, figures...how strangely she describes them, like real people, not like pieces of stone) are black (Aurors) and white (Death Eaters). The white figures are scary, cus they are "faceless" (white terrible masks of Death Eaters) "Harry, Ron and Hermione shivered slightly -- the towering white chessmen had no faces." Then let's take a look at this: "Well, Harry, you take the place of that bishop, and Hermione, you are next to him instead of that castle." "What about you?" "I'm going to be a knight," said Ron." That's a very strange choice, isn't it? Ron is very good at chess, he must knew, that it's better to be a king, because kings can stay until the end of the game without being taken, and they are the ones, who command. It would be much more logical and safe to be a king. But Rowling likes symbolism, and everything in this chess game is symbolical. Ron IS a knight, because this redhead boy is pure in heart and brave as a real knight. He never was a king, or a commander." Insert Maline: I agree with this. Ron is really the ideal Gryffindor, and in turn the ideal knight (see NT 20 for arguments on this). Even his hair is the Gryffindor colour (or almost) :-) "Hermione is a castle, because castle walks straight, and Hermione is quite a "straight" person. Harry is a bishop because bishop is the figure that is very close to the King (Dumbledore). Harry is also not "straight" like Hermione, he prefers "to walk diagonally," because he's self-effacing and a little secretive (like confessors (bishop))." Insert Maline: I'd rather compare the "walking diagonally" to Harry's disrespect for rules and willingness to cross some lines for a good cause, but sure "Then the game (WAR) begins... "Their first real shock came when their other knight was taken. The white queen smashed him to the floor and dragged him off the board, where he lay quite still, facedown." Bellatrix Lestrange murdered Sirius Black." Insert Maline: this is an excellent point. Especially when you take a look at how much alike Ron and Sirius are. Both brave, both a bit reckless, Ron is Harry's best friend, Sirius is James' best friend, both tend to act without really thinking things over (contrast: Hermione and Lupin) and so on. From what we know of Sirius, he's definitely a knight, too (e.g. Hagrid: "he died in battle, an' tha's the way he'd've wanted ter go" OotP, p. 753), he fits the parallel perfectly. So does Bellatrix Lestrange as "the White Queen". In her trial (GoF), she is said to be sitting in her chair as if it were a throne, and there's definitely something regal in the way she is portrayed. Furthermore, she's the only prominent female Death Eater, and one who's totally loyal to Voldemort at that. If Voldemort is the white king (just think of his complexion), then surely Bellatrix is his queen. (Her husband is barely mentioned.) "Every time one of their men was lost, the white pieces showed no mercy. Soon there was a huddle of limp black players slumped along the wall. Ron himself darted around the board, taking almost as many white pieces as they had lost black ones." "The war plot of the sixth book. Aurors and Death Eaters are dying, many of them. Mrs Weasley wasn't being silly. Book 6 spoiler." "Yes..." said Ron softly, "It's the only way... I've got to be taken." "No!" Harry and Hermione shouted. "That's chess!" snapped Ron. "You've got to make some sacrifices! I take one step forward and she'll take me -- that leaves you free to checkmate the king, Harry!" "But --" "Do you want to stop Snape or not?" "Ron --" "Look, if you don't hurry up, he'll already have the Stone!" There was no alternative." Ron sacrifices himself to let Harry kill Voldemort. There is NO alternative, he has to die anyway. The book 7 spoiler. "He stepped forward, and the white queen pounced. She struck Ron hard across the head with her stone arm, and he crashed to the floor - Hermione screamed but stayed on her square - the white queen dragged Ron to one side. He looked as if he'd been knocked out." Bellatrix Lestrange murders Ron Weasley. "The white king took off his crown and threw it at Harry's feet. They had won. The chessmen parted and bowed, leaving the door ahead clear." Harry kills Voldemort and survives. The Second Wizard War ends. Additional information: During the chessgame, the author writes: "Twice, Ron only just noticed in time that Harry and Hermione were in danger." What's going to happen in Books 6 and 7 with the trio? Where are they going to go, how are they going to be in danger? Something wicked this way comes." " __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Tue Jul 13 16:40:14 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:40:14 -0000 Subject: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106016 > Brenda now: >SNIP> > I do believe Snape is 'acting' to a degree, as suggested by some > posters. The fact that he despises Harry probably makes it much > easier for him to go along with it. I highly doubt that he will >like Harry given different circumstances, but his actions seem to be > *exaggerated* to entertain the Malfoy & co. He probably justifies his verbal abuse that way, it's a win-win situation for Snape. Aggie: I completely agree with this paragraph. Although I do tease my daughters by telling them that Sirius had to die so that Snape could end up adopting Harry!! Aren't I cruel!! ;o) > Brenda: I wonder if Snape heard about Harry being able to fight > off Imperius curse and presumed he didn't need to be told how. Seems like a similar branch of magic to me... Aggie: Good point! Finwitch: I think that, someone bearing Voldemort's mark makes > this Legilimens-contact on Harry, who ALSO has a link... well, I > think Voldemort got involved - or at least, LV's obsession for the > prophecy got trough first time, because Snape's Dark Mark > strenghtened the signal. Aggie: I, too, think that is a VERY interesting theory!! >Brenda: > I still think it was better that DD told Harry late than early (at > least AFTER Harry practiced Occlumency to some degree).. > The content of prophecy is overwhelming, extremely so for a young > teenage wizard (no matter how powerful he is). >SNIP> Aggie:I'm a believer that Harry should have been told MORE than he was, but I agree on our points about the prophecy being too much for him. Could/should he not have been told more but not necessarily told the whole lot? He could have been told that as LV was stronger that the link between them would be strengthened and there was a possibility of LV taking over his thoughts. He could have been warned that if he started having strange dreams or dreams that seem real that he was to inform a member of the Order. This would have given him more information without actually telling him about the prophecy. If this had happened then maybe Harry wouldn't have been as curious to find out where the door lead to and Snape's lessons might have had more impact and Sirius probably wouldn't have died and the book wouldn't have been as good!!! ;o) Anyway, I completely digress because the reason I've butted in on your discussion (apologies) was to ask you, Brenda, why you think that Harry telling Sirius about Frank Bryce would have changed anything? From ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 17:29:22 2004 From: ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com (ohneill_2001) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:29:22 -0000 Subject: SHIP:Hermione's reaction to... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106017 Del wrote: > I agree. But I doubt that Harry *felt* Hermione's friendship on that > one. If I remember correctly, he never once acknowledged that Hermione > did the right thing, much less thanked her for caring that much about > him. Since we were originally talking about who was a unwavering > friend for Harry, I thought it was worth mentioning that on this > occasion (which lasted several weeks), Harry did *not* feel like > Hermione had been a good friend (and as far as we know, he still feels > like that). Now Cory: You're right that he never thanked her, and he should have. I think we can agree that Harry is not always the most thoughtful or considerate person. However, from the text, I think it's clear that deep down, he did appreciate what she was doing on that occasion, even if he did not express it to her. The first line of Chapter 12 (right after the broom was taken away) is "Harry knew that Hermione had meant well, but that didn't stop him from being angry with her." Then to Ron, right after he had gotten the Firebolt back from McGonnagal: "You know what...we should really make up with Hermione. She was only trying to help..." p. 249, U.S. paperback. Now granted, I agree that this acknowledgement might seem a little hollow, given that it didn't come until after he had gotten the Firebolt back, but nonetheless the fact is that he did acknowledge it, and I believe that deep down, Harry understood all along that Hermione had his best interests at heart. --Cory From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Tue Jul 13 15:38:35 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:38:35 -0000 Subject: Out On A Limb About Florence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106018 > Gina: > has anyone thought maybe that was snape and lily? I have no > doubt in my mind that the hexer was Snape but maybe the girl was Lily Aggie; I'm not sure about it being Snape and Lily but you did make me think of something that I don't think has been mentioned before. Most of the posters seem to be assuming that because it was Bertha that saw the kiss and got hexed, that Flo and the boy were in her year at school. Could it not be possible that they were in a couple years below her? She followed him (why was she following him?) but he wasn't in her year. Perhaps she had a crush on him (but that doesn't really add weight to the theory as most girls fancy boys the same age or older. At least at school they do). Perhaps she knew that he was into the dark arts (lends weight to boy=Snape), but then why would she tease him? I wouldn't want to tease Snape!!! Although 13 yr old Snape would be less intimidating than 36 yr old Snape. Hmmm maybe I'm talking myself round to your way of thinking Gina!!! ;o) From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 18:01:05 2004 From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (Ms Mo Me) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:01:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wouldn't muggle born wizards have more incentive than pure bloods and therefore be more powerful? In-Reply-To: <1089551817.11347.41431.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040713180105.33270.qmail@web13521.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106019 I was thinking about this the other night and decided to post what you guys thought. If you were muggle born and had no idea you were a wizard, and suddenly, when you are 11, someone came along and told you that you were a wizard and had magical powers and were going to a wizarding school, wouldn't you be overwhelmed and excited and eager to try out this new found magic you never knew you had. Versus - if you were born into a wizarding family, magic is just a part of everyday life. Magic is nothing special to you, so there is no EXTRA incentive to try really hard. (I am not saying that pure bloods wouldn't try hard at all.) So, where am I going with this? The whole idea in the books of the purification of race. My theory is that muggle borns are actually more powerful than Pure Bloods because of incentive- i.e. Hermione, and Harry (because he lived with Muggles) etc. and will help conquer LV again. Obviously, this won't fit with every wizard, but what do you think about the theory? ~Mo __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Tue Jul 13 18:07:07 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:07:07 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Out On A Limb About Florence Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106020 * Aggie; I'm not sure about it being Snape and Lily but you did make me think of something that I don't think has been mentioned before. Hmmm maybe I'm talking myself round to your way of thinking Gina!!! ;o) Gina: * LOL! That may be a scary thing! :-) Sirius did not speak all that fondly of her either did he? Maybe it was him and the girl from the pensieve staring at the back of his head. Or Maybe the girl in love with Sirius WAS Bertha and she followed him only to see him kiss someone else.. Oh the possibilities! Maybe it was Lupin kissing Lily and he hexed her so that James would not find out. I still lean towards Snape because DD sounded sort of exasperated to me like she should have know she was going to get hexed. DD would have realized how fragile Snapes temper was and thus wanted to keep people from bothering him. Gina - who adores this list and all discussions about the future books! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Tue Jul 13 18:02:06 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:02:06 -0000 Subject: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books/only ifs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106021 >>> Susan Bones 2003 wrote: > Your last paragraph brings up something that I've always wanted to > count: the "ONLY IFS." > What if Harry had made the decision to ask an adult about something > bothering him, or used something at his disposal, or not gone > somewhere. The list goes one. Does anyone want to contribute to the > ONLY IFS list? > 1. Telling Sirius about the Frank Bryce dream. > 2. Telling Dumbledore his dreams in OOTP. Bren now: Well, there is that infamous 3. Opening Sirius' gift right after Christmas holidays 4. Opening Hogwarts acceptance letter quietly in his Cupboard (but old news and not affecting the plot either way, just my personal wish) and just for fun, 5. Asking Ginny out for the Yule Ball (just for fun, please no SHIP debate!) Brenda From jakejensen at hotmail.com Tue Jul 13 18:15:49 2004 From: jakejensen at hotmail.com (jakedjensen) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:15:49 -0000 Subject: Dudley as HBP??!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106022 Mandy wrote: > > It follows the creed that if there is just one drop of non-magical > blood in your family line, you are considered non-pure or half- > blooded. > > Cheers Mandy Jake replies: I have been a part of several blood line discussions in the past. I think it unlikely that half-bloods are defined as "just one drop of non-magical blood in your family line". To me, this does not fit with the canon (although if you can show me some canon that supports this idea, I will gladly throw up my arms in surrender). On the other hand, here is canon that directly refutes the idea that one drop of magical blood in your family line makes you a half-blood. The Malfoys are considered pureblood, and yet, they have muggle-blood in their "family line". As do the Weasleys. Ernie Mac., who claims to be as pure as anyone, only claims to be able to trace his pure heritage back thirteen generations (at which point, we are led to assume, there may be some muggle-blood--hence the disclaimer). Indeed, the text clearly states that there isn't a witch or wizard alive that doesn't have some muggle-blood in their family line. In addition, Lily is not considered to have "magic blood." This may sound confusing, but think about it. If muggle-borns were considered to have magic blood then why would people like the Malfoys hate them so much? The answer, I think, is that muggle-blood magic folk are not considered magic blood. Hence, harry is a half-blood. Dudley, on the other hand, would need Vernon to be a pure blood to be a half-blood. If you think this is incorrect, consider what would happen if two muggle-blood magic folk had a child. Would the child be a half-blood a pure-blood or a muggle-blood? By your definition, the child would be a half-blood. But then think of what the Malfoys would say of this. They don't count the blood for you but they do for your child? That doesn't make sense. In thier eyes, the child would still be a muggle-blood witch or wizard. The key is that all this stems from pure-blood fanatics. To pure- bloods, only a'old, pure blood" matters. So, if you don't have a pure blood in you (at all), you can't be a half-blood. The "half" relates to having at least some old, pure blood in you. Note, both Harry and Tom are half-bloods by this definition because they both have some (but not all) pure-blood in them. So, Dudley cannot be half-blooded because there is no connection to a pure-blood line that we know of. So, to work with your initial definition. A half-blood is anyone who has at least a drop of old, pure blood in their immediate family line. A muggle-blood is someone without any old, pure blood in their immediate family line. A pure-blood is someone with old, pure-blood on both sides of their immediate family line. This definition fits with all characters in the book and makes sense of how both Tom and Harry are half-bloods. It also makes it impossible for dudley diddums to be a half blood. Jake From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Tue Jul 13 18:21:21 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:21:21 -0000 Subject: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106023 >>> Aggie wrote: > Although I do tease my > daughters by telling them that Sirius had to die so that Snape could end up adopting Harry!! Aren't I cruel!! ;o) <<< Brenda: GASP! You *are* cruel! Imagine, would that be WORSE than living with Vernon and that Du-du-du-Dudley? I shudder to think that! >>> Me eariler: > I still think it was better that DD told Harry late than early (at > > least AFTER Harry practiced Occlumency to some degree).. > > The content of prophecy is overwhelming, extremely so for a young > > teenage wizard (no matter how powerful he is). >SNIP> > > Aggie responded: > I'm a believer that Harry should have been told MORE than he was, but I agree on our points about the prophecy being too much for > him. Could/should he not have been told more but not necessarily > told the whole lot? He could have been told that as LV was stronger > that the link between them would be strengthened and there was a > possibility of LV taking over his thoughts. He could have been > warned that if he started having strange dreams or dreams that seem > real that he was to inform a member of the Order. This would have > given him more information without actually telling him about the > prophecy. If this had happened then maybe Harry wouldn't have been > as curious to find out where the door lead to and Snape's lessons > might have had more impact and Sirius probably wouldn't have died and the book wouldn't have been as good!!! ;o) > > Anyway, I completely digress because the reason I've butted in on > your discussion (apologies) was to ask you, Brenda, why you think > that Harry telling Sirius about Frank Bryce would have changed > anything? <<< Bren now: Heh? I thought you answered your question yourself earlier in the post: "He could have been warned that if he started having strange dreams or dreams that seem real that he was to inform a member of the Order." But let me elaborate on this for a bit. As for as we know, Harry's dream about Frank Bryce, wormtail, Nagini (spell?) in the Riddle House is the first (real) indication of Harry- VM connection. Throughout GoF Harry was given the explanation of 'his scar hurts when VM is near or feeling particularly strong emotions'. That is DD's own guess, even DD is not too sure about this in GoF. But as we know, Harry's FB dream was way more than that. He had heard conversations between VM and Wormtail, about Bertha Jonkins and Harry himself being named as the victim. He saw the old Muggle being murdered in his dream. His "dream" held a lot of crucial clues to VM's return. The content of dream was *too* important to regard as a normal dream, IMO. I believe DD might have suspected this deep connection between them, but he wasn't too sure. He wasn't given enough information from the dreamer himself to begin with. This appears to be a very rare connection amongst wizards. If Harry had slipped up (ever so slightly) that he had a *weird dream* in which VM killed someone and named him the victim, it would have alerted big fat red flag in Sirius and DD's minds, IMO. Funny to see how both of my paragraphs end in IMO, after all these are just my speculation and me blabbing won't change JKR's story, IMO. (Ha!) Brenda, wondering how your daughters react to Snape adopting Harry at the end? From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Tue Jul 13 18:34:06 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:34:06 -0000 Subject: Why Fret About Voldemort Considering Riddle? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106024 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Louis Badalament" wrote: > But my question is... why? Why does he even *feel* this guilt? > Remember book 2? He killed Tom Riddle easily enough. He was, in > fact, rather proud of the accomplishment, even years later... > I think it's just the difference between heat-of-the-moment, desperate *reaction*, and this sober reflection on what it's going to feel like to actually have to deliberately kill someone else. Plus, I don't think that Harry actually KNEW that stabbing the diary would kill Riddle - he took a chance because he was desperate and had nothing to lose, and it paid off. As he said himself, he was lucky. It's quite a different thing to contemplate and plan someone else's death. Wanda From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Tue Jul 13 14:16:05 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:16:05 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius lure Severus into the Willow? (was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106025 Kneasy: > Except in my (hopefully) humorous posts I feel uncomfortable making > guesses that are more than very vague. Though the logic be >tortuous and the canon in paper-thin shreds, back-to-front and >twisted in knots,I dislike making suppositions that don't have at >least a little something > behind them. >SNIP> >At the moment I have no theories why things happened the way > they did. I was wondering if anyone else could throw light on the > matter; apparently not. And before I give serious consideration > to suggestions, I'd like a little canon (or extrapolation from >canon)to go with them please. Aggie: I can understand that. Unfortunately then, I'm afraid a deathly hush will fall upon your questions!! I am sure that JKR has hidden EXTREMELY carefully the reasons DD trusts Snape and vice versa, if she has left us any at all! The only one VAGUELY canonfied that I can come up with is that DD told Snape 'the plan' and a 16 yr old DE (or soon to be one) did the right thing! The thing is (and you SO remind me of my Dad!) is that we LOVE coming up with wild guesses, even if they are based on the residue vapour of a rumour from Aunt Marge's neighbour's cousin's cat. . .who happens to be Mrs Norris!! It's fun!! I'm not saying that your way isn't fun for you, I'm sure it is, like I said it's how I would expect my Dad to behave on here! I do apologise if you're younger than me (I'm 31 in a couple of weeks!) and hope you don't take offence at this. I'm not trying to offend you! --Aggie From mayeaux45 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 14:30:25 2004 From: mayeaux45 at yahoo.com (mayeaux45) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:30:25 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: <40F3E342.20206@tds.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106026 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, squeakinby wrote: > delwynmarch wrote: > > > > > Del replies : > > It doesn't change the fact that Ron is constantly in Harry's shadow. > > In all the things that matter as far as self-esteem is concerned, Ron > > is always second-best to Harry. Except in the Prefect matter, but even > > there we readers know better. Jem: > > Nothing left for Ron but death, the sooner the better to avoid further > humilation. Good one Jem! LOL! I agree! ;) Del, the 'poor me' syndrome that Ron has is getting a little bit old. Don't you think? In a nutshell, the ONLY person that has it WORSE OFF than ANYONE is Harry. Like Anasazi said he (Ron) maybe poor and gets hand me downs, but atleast he has that support system of a *real* family (mother, father, sister and brothers). And Ron is not considered just Number 6 in their house hold. I'm sure JKR would agree with that. ALL the Weasley children are LOVED by Arthur and Molly! Look at Percy...he's a horrible git who turned his back on his family for personal gain in the MoM and yet Arthur and Molly still LOVE him all the same. He was extremely smart as well (also being made Prefect and Head Boy)...but that doesn't necessarily mean ANYTHING, now does it? "Mayeaux" From jmmears at comcast.net Tue Jul 13 18:39:33 2004 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:39:33 -0000 Subject: Prefects and points In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106027 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" wrote: > {SNIPPAGE} > > Shaun wrote: > > That still means there's a discrepancy with JKRs FAQ answer - but > > as it seems clear she was relying on a faulty memory of what she > > wrote, I don't think that's that surprising. > > > > Maybe Ron (in her mind) hasn't been authoritarian, and hasn't taken > > any points - so to her, when asked this question, she thinks "Why > > did I write that - it must be because I thought he might not know > > this." Arya now: I do think there is something to be said for the fact that > JKR answered this question with Ron looking like the one in the wrong. > If it was a reader, like you or I who made this comment, it would be > our posibly biased view or image of him leading us to this conclusion; > but it's JKR answering a frequently asked question in a situation > where she isn't rushed to answer or put on the spot--she has time to > check things over, think things over and to just perfectly word her > answers and upload to her own site (and correct if she is wrong). So, > the notion that JKR (as I think Cathy said) is "wrong" and giving Ron > a bad rap is possibly a bit presumptuous of us readers. Why? Because JKR has never been "wrong" before? Er...no. In fact, the "Mark Evans" debacle was most disturbing because it revealed that there is a lot less attention to detail in the Potterverse than previously imagined. Up until now, most of us have pretty much come to accept that our beloved author is a bit challenged in the maths department, so we take things like ages, dates, numbers of students at Hogwarts, class schedules, and the order of spells coming from wands with a very large grain of salt. What else can we do until she finishes the series and then goes back to rewrite the inconsistencies, as she's said she'd like to. But forgetting Lily's maiden name and giving it to a meaningless character? Even JKR has conceded that this was a very embarrassing mistake and was quite properly contrite. Under the circumstances, it's not "presumptuous" to call her wrong when she clearly is. I do hope she addresses this when she updates the site. Arya: I've always > seen Ron as the comic relief of the trio (not a burgeoning general > who's ought to be Head Boy and a Quidditch Captain) and the constant > defense and insistance to build him up as an equal or even higher > character than Harry is baffling to me. So when JKR answers her > question, whether it's off the cuff or long-thought out, and blames > Ron's ignorance on something that seems quite basic, I think JKR has > also inadvertanly confirmed (at least for those like me who've always > thought it) that Ron is the type of person who would be ignorant on > these sorts of things (usually through his own lack of effort). There's no denying that Ron tends to lackadasical about schoolwork, but apart from the (entirely unreasonable, IMO) expectation that he should be able to control the twins, I think that his reaction to being chosen as Prefect would indicate that he takes the job quite seriously. I think that analysing JKR's inner motivations is always dangerous, and ought to be avoided because it always seems to end up revealing more about the one doing the analysis than providing any real insight . Arya: > Oh there are all sorts of legions of Ron-o-philes out there who will > come out now and protest his worth and wit but, IMO, that's a lot of > speculation on what he *could* be and not on what he is. And I > personally see JKR's comment fingering Ron and only Ron as "not a very > authoritarian" prefect who knew the rules as a confirmation that JKR > intends Ron to be not the brightest prefect in the bunch--which just > happens to fit the view I've had of him all along. If she changes her > answer on the site, then I'm wrong, but I think some Ron-defenders > need to just posibly conceive of the notion that he really is just > meant to be the sidekick/comic relief/best mate/support to Harry > the-books-are-titled-after-me Potter. Oh dear, I'm now a member of a "legion" LOL! That's ok though since I'm pretty sure that JKR is a member of the legion, too. No, I'm afraid that OOP has removed the issue of Ron's worth from the realm of speculation. Of course he's not the brightest prefect in the bunch. Hermione is always going to be the brightest of *any* bunch she's part of; even a bunch which includes Harry. So what? If Ron's intended to be merely "sidekick/comic relief/best mate/support to Harry, then JKR's gone rather badly astray in having him chosen as prefect and having him finally overcome his Quidditch demons without any help from either Harry or Hermione. If Ron is simply meant to be a clown, then she's wasted a lot of page-time in a book that was already huge. I'm convinced that the development of his character in OOP indicates a story arc which will have Ron coming into his own as an individual and who will have no need to stand in anyones shadow. Jo Serenadust, whose favorite character is still Harry but who believes that Harry's favorite character is still Ron From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 18:43:04 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:43:04 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Hermione's Reaction to... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106028 Del wrote: And by the way, I am NOT a R/H shipper. But I am even less of a H/H > one. I just want them all to be happy. If I had things my way, > Hermione would end up with someone very nice who appreciates all of > her and whom she wouldn't feel a need to protect and support *all the > time*, like Viktor Krum or Remus Lupin. > Alla: I hear you, Del. Well, I think Hermione and Krum is still very plausible. After all, she is writing to him in OoP and does not talk to Harry and Ron much about it. Come to think of it, I would love very much - no romance between the Trio possibility. I like them as closest friends , as close as brothers and sister who ha dbeen through soo much together From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 13 18:43:29 2004 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:43:29 -0000 Subject: Ron as prefect In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106029 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hermionekitten9" wrote: > So in the fifth book how do you think Harry would act > like, as prefect? Do you think he would have pinned on his prefect > pin and all of a sudden turn into everything that Hermione, and > Ernie would hope for, turn into the embodiment of all Percy stands > for? Or do you think he would react the exact same way (if not > similar) to the way Ron reacted? Because I can see Harry doing the > same things that Ron did... I can see Harry being intimidated by the > twins, finding having to deal with the first years annoying, what > else did Ron do? (That wasn't a mistake on JKR's part) I disagree. I don't think that Harry should have been made prefect because of his mental state at the beginning of the year and due to the harassment he would have been subject to from his image in the WW, but there are two cases that illustrate clearly where he would have acted differently in precisely the above instances. I don't have the book with me so I can't give the exact quote, but from memory: 1. Attitude towards first years: right after the first evening banquet in OOP, Hermione reminds Ron to gather the first years and Ron reacts quite disdainfully towards them (though in good humor). Harry on the other hand sees how small and frightened they seem and smiles encouragingly to reassure them (and is rewarded by them huddling together in fear of him, poor guy). 2. Attitude towards the twins. For one, Harry has never been intimidated by them (but then they are not his big brothers) and he had no problems calling them to order (and having them obey!) during the DA meetings (witness the incident where they were playing tricks on Zacharias Smith and all it took is Harry looking at them to get them to stop and apologize). Salit From youngy_pak at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 18:18:22 2004 From: youngy_pak at yahoo.com (Grace Choung (Youngy Pak)) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:18:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040713181822.81168.qmail@web50402.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106030 > Mayeaux45: > > Hermione is known for accepting people as they are (Ron and > > Harry included), even though she might have a great dislike > > for them. I don't think she would go through the "trouble" > > of trying to get Ron to change( or even Harry for that matter). > Del replies : > Except that she does. She offered the boys *homework planners* for > Christmas, how much more loudly could she have stated that she > expected them to change ? > Moreover, it's very common for people in love to consciously accept > their loved one in their entirety, but to reject some parts of > their personality unconsciously. Mayeaux45: Once again, only when it comes to academics is Hermione aggressive in her attempts to *help* the boys, not *change* them. And are you referring to Ron being in love with Hermione or vice versa. Because even some die hard R/Hr shippers say that the love seems to be *one-sided* (mostly on Ron's part). Youngy wrote: Hi, I am mostly a lurker here, but I could not help but respond. I would have to disagree with your comment, though I understand where you may come from. Hermione may think she is "helping" them by giving them homework planners (and if I recollect correctly, planning homework time, and other day events for them) but can you really say that it is "helping" another person by telling them what to do with their time and how to do it (regardless of the intention)? To me that seems indicate an unconscious need to change things/people's way of doing things or way of thinking. I can understand where Hermione is coming from because I do that too sometimes, but when you grow older you realize that you have to let people do things their way even if you don't think it is "efficient" or "correct" way of doing things because it can come off as being controlling or bossy --- and people in general (having minds of their owns) don't like to be bossed around, regardless of a good intention (do you like it when your parents tell you how to do things? Not really, but you know they do it because they care about you and do it with your best interest...usually neway) ~Youngy From nocturnus2003 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 14:42:03 2004 From: nocturnus2003 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Nocturnus?=) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:42:03 -0300 (ART) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Pensieve (was Re: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040713144203.75530.qmail@web53809.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106031 aggiepaddy said: << No: HPFGUIDX 106032 Carolyn: "Perhaps the MoM/Fudge knew all about the Shrieking Shack incident and agreed to the cover up, so Snape/and his parents (?) knew there was no point saying anything?" The MoM definitely knows about Lupin being a werewolf- he's had to be registered. I forget what year they mentioned the Werewolf Registration Act was pushed through, but the MoM DEFINITELY knows by the time Lupin's a teacher. (Thus the reason he can't get work.) He's probably got a card or something he's required to present every time he applies for a job. (That gets really depressing.) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From meyerjc16 at uww.edu Tue Jul 13 17:28:00 2004 From: meyerjc16 at uww.edu (ge25y) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:28:00 -0000 Subject: Question from the new girl Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106033 Hi I'm Jennie and this is only my second post so forgive me if you've already discussed this. I was poking around JKR website today and was reading some background info on Dean Thomas. Apparently his real father was a wizard. Now I realize that everyone's busy talking about prefect points, and who likes who, and what's going on with Snape, but has anyone thought that maybe Dean's the HBP?? It said on her web page that it was info she was hoping to get out in CS but wasn't sure if she would get it in anywhere now. Does anyone know if there is anything. Waiting patiently for someone to explain why this isn't possible. Jennie From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Tue Jul 13 13:07:55 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:07:55 -0400 Subject: Magic later in life Message-ID: <000a01c468da$69c78860$2f62d1d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 106035 Would someone please be so kind as to point me to where JKR said someone would be getting magical powers later in life? I've been looking through the interviews at Leaky Cauldron, but that could take a century. Thanks. Off list is perfectly fine. Cathy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 18:43:41 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:43:41 -0000 Subject: Prefects and points In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106036 I, Del, wrote: > But Ron is like most of us : not overly intelligent, not overly > studious, not overly lucky, and not the hero of the game. *But* he > has ambition, he *wants* to become someone, to prove himself, just > like most of us. So if he turned out to be there just for fun, the > message I would get out of it all would be : "Sorry, if you're not > > born special, you will never become so. You'll always be just a joke. > You'll never be the hero of anything. It's not even worth trying, > because it won't happen." And I just happen to HATE that sort of > message. It would right away turn me off HP (both the books and the > character). Arya answered : > But, but, but....if Ron doesn't remain just "normal" and he has to > change and become more than "comic relief" then doesn't that say that > the normal guy is nothing? There's an awful lot to be said for the > average guy and it does take a certain type of courage to be content > with being just who you are (as opposed to trying to be more and > appear more in the eyes of others). Del replies : But I'm NOT saying that Ron wants to appear more than he is. I'm saying that Ron IS more than he appears. At the end of PS/SS, DD tells something to Harry that has been used in this group over and over again : It's not our abilities that determine who we are, but our choices (or something like that). Ron made *amazing* choices for someone normal. He repeatedly chose to face mortal danger. He repeatedly chose to go right along Harry in dangerous endeavours. He constantly supported Harry through whatever Harry had to go through (except in one single time and he repented from it). He shares everything he has with Harry (most notably his family) without ever asking anything in return. In fact, when asked to give Ron's most defining quality, people will most often say that he's an amazing friend. But that's because he's put Harry's interests before his own over and over again. So Ron makes all these amazing choices, but in the end he will still be someone average, someone normal ? While of course, in the meantime, Harry will have gone from hero to super-hero, because of his own choices ? Sorry, I call that unfair. If DD (JKR) meant to say that it's not his abilities that will define *Harry* but his choices, then he (she) should not have made such a general statement. If on the other hand, she truly meant it, then Ron should end up amazing, because he's made amazing choices. In fact, I believe he's *already* amazing, because those choices have already affected him for the better, but somehow JKR isn't showing us that. She keeps insisting on how common he is, on how laughable he is, on all his failings, she makes him look like a stupid dork who has never done anything exceptional in his life. But he's simply not that. Arya wrote : > It's not easy to just be average and be happy and happy enough to > joke around and to in the shadow of Harry (and even Hermione). Del replies : No, it's not easy, especially when you took a very active and equal part in what made Harry and Hermione shine ! Arya wrote : > So I think Ron's got his cross to bear (this shadow) and he doesn't > NEED to rise up and shine in a bright and glorious way so that the > last book has to be called "Harry, Ron and Hermione: The Most Equal > of Friends". All Ron's need to do is endure to be there at Harry's > side and *that* will make him a hero in his own right. Del replies : Oh, because Harry, Ron and Hermione are *not* equal ?? I guess I'm right then : JKR lied to us through DD, and it's *not* our choices who define who we are, it's what we were born. Wonderful. Not. Arya wrote : > We all have paths, we all have some purpose--not everyone is meant to > walk in front and lead--someone has to walk behind and follow. Del replies : I know we keep talking about how Ron and Hermione follow Harry, but it's a wrong choice of word : Harry, Ron and Hermione work as partners, they work side-by-side, it's not Harry in the front and Ron and Hermione in the back. Just because Harry always end up fighting LV alone in the end because of convenient obstacles that block his friends on the way, doesn't mean they ever *intend* things to be that way. If they could, Ron and Hermione would always be right next to Harry any time he faces danger. Ron would gladly take an equal share of the burden and the danger if he could. His *choices* are just as brave as Harry's, and his personality is just as noble as Harry's. He *is* Harry's equal in character. But JKR just doesn't show that. Arya wrote : > There *is* heroism in accepting the simple path before you and not > forsaking it for the pursuit of one's own glory. Del replies : Yo, one *simple* path indeed it is, to brave danger and death right alongside Harry !! And I wasn't talking about Ron pursuing his own glory. I was talking about his true personality finally shining through : brave, noble, tenacious, generous. Everyone keeps talking about how Harry is all of that and more, but I say that Ron is no less either. Arya wrote : > Harry *needs* his friends and I can see Ron having a test of his > character in having to decided to remain at Harry's side and in his > shadow versus pursuing the fame that Harry has which he envies so. Del replies : First, as I said, I wasn't talking about Ron going after his own glory. just about his brightness inside finally showing through. And second : Harry doesn't own Ron. If Ron did indeed decide to leave Harry to pursue his own dreams, it would be his most basic right. It would in no way be a test of his character, because there would be no failing option. It would be no treason or abandonment of Harry. Whether Ron would choose to stay with Harry or to leave him would be equally good and right. If Ron decided to stay with Harry, it would be a sign of true charity : putting another's needs before his own. And Ron has already shown signs that he does indeed possess quite large amounts of that most remarkable quality. Ron *is* great, because he, the ordinary boy, made extraordinary decisions. Why does JKR hide that fact ? Del From caseylane at wideopenwest.com Tue Jul 13 17:22:25 2004 From: caseylane at wideopenwest.com (Casey) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:22:25 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius lure Severus into the Willow? (was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: <20040713100804.74988.qmail@web90005.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106037 > Jen: Snape didn't get his coveted pound of flesh because he had > > reasons for keeping silent. It's clear in POA that Snape is willing > > to skirt around Dumbledore's wishes when he wants to; nothing > > Dumbledore said or did would keep Snape from talking about the Prank > > if he wanted to. No, he's not talking because he's either hiding > > something or protecting someone. Which it is, I haven't a clue. > > Amber: > > You have very good points there, Jen. At the end of > PoA it didn't stop him to reveal that Lupin is a > werewolf. He knew very well that this went against DD > wishes. I don't think he would have keep his mouth shut > unless he's got a good reason. Casey: Unless Snape learned from that event that his only option was to speak up. That leaving it up to Dumbledore to take the, in his opinion, correct action was a lost cause. From juli17 at aol.com Tue Jul 13 18:44:54 2004 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:44:54 -0400 Subject: SHIP: Hermoine's Reaction to... Message-ID: <1EDEFB45.6214644B.0004E520@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106038 Arya said: >Arya (who is a firm believer in R-->Hr-->H and an eventual Trio of heartbreak because there is simply not more powerful emotion than love) > Juli says: I too believe it stands right now as R-->Hr-->H. I do think Hermoine knows Ron likes her, and has some feelings for him (which is why she derided him for not asking her to the Yule Ball). But she's devoted to Harry and seems to understand that he needs her more than Ron right now. Whether that devotion is a foundation for romantic love or a deep friendship isn't clear. But she is determined to stand by Harry's side, come what may, and even Ron isn't going to pull her away from that position. Harry comes first. As for how it will all end up, I'm not convinced there will be a love triangle. In fact, I hope there isn't. There are far too many other issues to be dealt with in the final two books to waste too much time on romantic love, IMO, especially romantic love among teenagers. However they all feel at 15 or 16 is not necessary (even probably) how they'll feel as adults. I suspect Ron could easily fall "out" of love (as much as he is now actually "in" love) with Hermoine. He could find a stronger attraction to someone else, like Luna, that blossoms into deeper feelings. Or, once Harry's future is settled, Hermoine could realize deeper feelings for Ron, and it could go from there. As for Harry, who right now is far to consumed in his own problems to have much emotion left over for romantic love right now, may eventually develop romantic love for any of the three girls who are loyally standing by his side right now, and who all have different but equally valuable things to offer him. My best guess is that eventually it could be R/Hr and either H/L or H/G, or it could be R/L and H/Hr. Or it could be H/Other! JKR knows, I'm sure, but for the rest of us, and based on the unpredictablility of the human--and wizard--heart, it's still too difficult to tell right now. Juli From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 18:58:26 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:58:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR in Edinburgh In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040713185826.1717.qmail@web53510.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106039 Not sure if this would receive Admin's total approval, but: Info on JKR's site, posted today. She doing readings, answering questions at the Edinburgh Book Festival next month. The audience will be small and tickets will be allocated by ballot. So if you're feeling lucky.... Kneasy If someone is lucky enough to be picked to go that is on this list, that person will possibly have a chance to ask a question. If so, there will only be one. What question would everyone like to have answered most? Remember "is Harry going to die" is pretty pointless. What question that has a good chance of actually being answered would everyone like to ask? I am going to have to think about this one myself. Shipping questions are pretty much out. She has already said that it is obvious and will not go further. Mark Evans is answered. Dead is dead. hhhmmmm..... moonmyyst --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 19:03:47 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:03:47 -0000 Subject: Ron as prefect In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106040 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hermionekitten9" wrote: snip. kitten > Who loves Ron, Harry, and Hermione equally... just feeling really > sarcastic, and annoyed by that fact that if Harry does it, its OK, > but if Ron does it, its Criminal; and how some H/Hr's > "belittle" Ron to "up" their ship. Alla: Just very, very small comment. It is possible, you know, NOT to like Ron as much as Harry and even as much as Hermione without wanting to see Harry and Hermione ending up together. I like Ron, but only in conjunction with Harry - meaning as long as he stays loyal to him. I don't hate him by any means, I think he is a loyal friend, but I am not as emotionally invested in his character as I am invested in Harry's. He is a bit too "down to earth" for my taste in the book like this. From patientx3 at aol.com Tue Jul 13 19:15:03 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:15:03 -0000 Subject: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106041 "Agnes Raggett" wrote: >>> I'm with Huntergreen. This was never going to work, as DD realises in the end (but too late!). If the tutor and the student do not appreciate each other then it will NOT work. This was forced onto both of them. Had Lupin been able to teach it then I'm sure it would have worked because Lupin would have got Harry interested. Snape (and Harry) just wanted to get done and out. <<< Pippin responded: >>Nope, I don't think it would have worked even if Lupin had taught Harry. Nothing to do with ESE!Lupin theory here, just that even after Harry made some progress at Occlumency, he never tried to use it to control the dreams or to keep himself from dwelling on what he saw in them.<< HunterGreen: Exactly. Lupin's method's worked not because he was better or because the method was better (which it wasn't, that was my point, the method was the *same*), but because Harry *wanted* to learn. Harry not learning in this instance has very little to do with Snape's teaching, it just seems like its Snape's fault because he was so nasty about it (and because Harry tries to blame him). Pippin wrote: >> It doesn't really matter that the vision of Sirius was false--even if Sirius had truly been held captive, Harry shouldn't have gone after him. << HunterGreen: That's true. And that's one of the things that really bothered me when I was reading OotP. Harry and the others had no real plan besides just walzting into the MoM, as though a bunch of kids could save Sirius from *death eaters*. That chapter is the only time I've really been pulled out of the book, and felt like I was reading a children's story....at least in the past there was some reason why it was Harry in the end going after something that an adult should be doing, in this instance they should have tried to find another adult besides Snape to tell the story to (I'm sure they could have found a way to contact at least Ron's parents). The whole thing was just ridiculous, I can understand Harry and Ron rushing off without thinking about it, but Hermione? And then Luna, Neville and Ginny? (esepecially since they barely knew what was going on). From dicentra at xmission.com Tue Jul 13 19:05:57 2004 From: dicentra at xmission.com (Dicentra spectabilis) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:05:57 -0000 Subject: Magic later in life In-Reply-To: <000a01c468da$69c78860$2f62d1d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106042 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cathy Drolet" wrote: > Would someone please be so kind as to point me to where JKR said someone would be getting magical powers later in life? I've been looking through the interviews at Leaky Cauldron, but that could take a century. It's the March 1999 Barnes and Noble interview, found at Quick-Quote-Quill.org: http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/1999/0399-barnesandnoble.html Q: Will there be, or have there been, any "late blooming" students in the school who come into their magic potential as adults, rather than as children? A: No, is the answer. In my books, magic almost always shows itself in a person before age 11; however, there is a character who does manage in desperate circumstances to do magic quite late in life, but that is very rare in the world I am writing about. --Dicentra, who found it in about 20 minutes From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 19:23:58 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:23:58 -0000 Subject: Why Fret About Voldemort Considering Riddle? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106043 Meri wrote : > IMHO, in Harry's mind at this point the prophecy doesn't mean that > he'll have to face LV in battle, but might perhaps have to go after > LV like an assassin. Del replies : The Prophecy says no such thing. It doesn't even say that Harry will *intentionally* kill LV. It could all end that LV will die in some accident that Harry will make to happen. Meri wrote : > How many people do you think will try to convince him that killing > LV, the one who killed James and Lily and Cedric and all those other > people, wouldn't be murder but a justifiable act? Del replies : It would be self-defence. The Prophecy states it clearly : it's Harry or LV. LV has already proven that he believes in the Prophecy, he's already tried to kill Harry. So whatever Harry does now would be rightfully considered self-defence. Even if he attacked. Attacking someone who already attempted to kill you and has made it clear that they will attempt to take your life again next time they see you IS considered self-defence still. To be honest, I was dismayed when I read that part about Harry thinking that he would have to commit *murder* or be killed. It was such a pathetic attempt at making us pity Harry even more ! We've known for a long time, way before OoP, that it would end up like that, and Harry knew it too deep inside, it was obvious. But it was never considered murder, either by him or by us the readers. So where did that come from, honestly ?! Del From cruthw at earthlink.net Tue Jul 13 19:02:34 2004 From: cruthw at earthlink.net (caspenzoe) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:02:34 -0000 Subject: PoA Question (foreshadowing books 6 & 7) In-Reply-To: <071220041837.10133.40F2DA4D000A8C430000279522007354469C9C07049D0B@comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106044 [Snip!] > Casey: > > "Perhaps, however Cuaron is not really being so non-textual after- > all, given the "old married couple" reference you provide. I'd > assumed JKR's focus on Harry's various father figures beginning > (esp.) in book three had to do with lending some verisimilitude to > her portrayal of male adolescent angst, as well as furthering her > identity theme. I think some amount of homoeroticism is inherent in > that process, but maybe she really is going somewhat further with it? > > Adding to it the overall theme of "normality" as an anti-value lends > a really interesting perspective. Thanks." [Lissa] > > On the one hand, consider some of Cuaron's other movies: homosexuality and homoeroticism are not topics this man will shy away from. (I get a kick out of picturing the arguments that may have occurred between Steve Kloves, who seemed quite convinced that Lupin loved Lily, and Cuaron, whom I'm imagining (for no concrete reason) supported the Sirius/Lupin theory.) > > Although JKR doesn't really focus on it, I've noticed something interesting about her: she's very inclusive of different cultures in her books. I don't think she does it to be PC or make a point- I think she does it because it's the way society actually is. A lot of different races are represented at Hogwarts: Cho is Asian, Pavrati and Padma are Indian, Dean is black, etc. She doesn't really go out of her way to point this out, but she does represent more than just Harry's walk of life. She's also played with different economic status (statuses? stati?), the impact of disabilities (Neville's parents), different family structures (single parent families, extended families, other non-traditional families), etc., so it wouldn't shock me if she made one (or two) of her characters homosexual. (I mean, heck, Aberforth "practiced inappropriate charms on a goat"... lol) > > Although the Harry Potter books have been marketed at children, the books were not written for children. So... why not? Especially since Sirius, well, he's dead. Lupin and Sirius wouldn't be present as an active, obvious couple, and the focus would be on the emotional side of their relationship at this point, rather than the sexual. But I can see where Harry would be terribly upset, at least at first. (And regardless of the relationship between Sirius and Lupin, I definitely think Harry hasn't given much thought to Lupin's feelings about the matter, and I could really see them rubbing each other the wrong way eventually.) > > I think the foundation is there, if she choses to go that way. She's laid enough ambiguous hints that it wouldn't be a total shocker, but said hints HAVE been abiguous enough that it wouldn't be a shocker if I'm wrong about them, either. I wouldn't put either one past her! > > Lissa Again, very interesting comments! Thanks! I agree that JKR is very inclusive of other cultures, and also that there's no "trying to be PC" feeling to it. Her inclusion, even championing, of the various differentnesses of her characters seems to come from some deep sympathy for those rejected by normal, average society: those who are abandonned and/or abused as children (I think this kind of history creates a shame so deep that it is very near impossible for those exposed to it to ever feel entirely at home among their peers, even as adults - regardless how "successful" they may become); those who are too fat, or otherwise not attractive enough, stigmatized by disease they have no control over, or just far too often overlooked in the crowd, etc. Many, if not all of her major characters carry these burdens - from our hero Harry, and our champions Lupin, (and one can only surmise) Sirius (obviously deeply disturbed and fast on his way to becomming a raging alcoholic prior to his untimely (?) death), Hermione ("I have bucked teeth, am a know-it-all, and - surprisingly - none of the other girls like me"), Neville ("both my parents are in a loony bin, and my grandmother still never lets me forget that I'm not as good as they are"), Luna (my mother's dead, as if she didn't even care enough to survive for me, and I know no one takes me seriously if they take me a t all") Ginny (I was helplessy and totally possessed by VM and I didn't even know what was happening to me"), and even ("I hate maroon but my mother keeps making me maroon sweaters as if she can't even hear me say so - and I'm so poor!") Ron, to the highly controversial Snape ("my father beat my mother, and I'm a repulsive person too"), and even our arch-villian ("my father clearly hated my guts and my mother couldn't survive for me either") VM, a.k.a. Tom. Childhood and adolescense can be really brutal experiences. That's why one reason a magic -world - with it's surreal wonders and horrors - can work so well to portray them, while cushioning reality somewhat. Based on a number of JKR interviews I've read, some I've seen, where her shyness and intorversion cannnot help but be noticed, I'm pretty sure that she and many of the real-life friends of her youth were deeply anxious - as are most of us at one time or another - especially the artistically inclined ones - over these "fear of rejection" issues. I also strongly suspect that she's witnessed the difficult lives of gay friends up close and possibly even lived through the horror of seeing one or more of them die of Aids. If you were anywhere close to experiencing that in the 80's when so many beautiful and vibrant people were dropping like fies for no good reason you know that horror is the only appropriate word. I'll be really surprised if JKR overtly explores homosexual themes in the last two books, but covertly, I think it's always been there to some degree and can't be denied. And, as I've mentioned before, I think identity itself, which includes sexual identity, is a major (if not the major) theme of the books. In any case, if Lupin and Sirius were ever truly in love I say good for them! Casey From oppen at mycns.net Tue Jul 13 19:29:28 2004 From: oppen at mycns.net (Eric Oppen) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:29:28 -0500 Subject: Ron as prefect, and his shortcomings. Message-ID: <003101c4690f$bb6b16c0$e0510043@intergate.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106045 If Ron really didn't know that prefects could dock house points, he was either incredibly clueless, especially since some of his brothers were prefects (all except Gred-and-Forge), or McGonagall or Dumbledore fell down on the job. I'd expect that new prefects would be given some sort of orientation to the job, to get them genned up on what they were expected to do---what their powers were, what the limitations on their powers were, what to do when/if they found themselves in over their heads, and so on. If D'dore and McGonagall didn't do this, the older prefects in G House should have taken on that role. Personally, I don't much blame Ron for not being able to rein in Gred-and-Forge---prefect or no prefect, they probably still see him as "ickle Ronniekins," their baby brother---and they aren't exactly in awe of _any_ authority figures, save maybe D'dore. Were I in charge of G House, I'd have gotten the oldest prefects aside when I found out that G+F were running amok, and told them: "Look, you two. I expect you to live up to those badges. I don't expect miracles, but keep those two under control." For that matter, I wonder how well _most_ fifth-year prefects do with older members of their Houses. Who knows---by the time Ron's in seventh year (assuming he survives) he may well have grown into the job, ruling the G common room with a whim of steel. From estrilda_wolfegg at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 19:15:26 2004 From: estrilda_wolfegg at yahoo.com (estrilda_wolfegg) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:15:26 -0000 Subject: Why Fret About Voldemort Considering Riddle? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106046 "Louis Badalament" wrote: > [Harry]killed Tom Riddle easily enough. . . > Riddle was something of a ghost (a 'memory' for all you > nitpickers,) but Voldermort's not exactly a human being either, no > matter whether we're speaking figuratively or literally, either. . . Harry also didn't seem to have any qualms about ending > Bellatrix Lestrange's life, either . . . > No sympathy for the one who killed his godfather, and yet Harry > feels regrets about killing the one who murdered his father and > mother? I think there are two issues here. First, the quasi-alive and quasi-human analogy. The diary-based Tom was created by magic (never was a person) and only existed by literally sucking the life from Ginny Weasley. Ending the existence of the memory directly saved the girl. The ritual-revived Voldemort is the warped end product of the actual person of Tom Riddle. Killing him would stop his crimes, but it would end the life [I admit - a very warped and barely human life] of a wizard. Secondly, premeditation. The difference is between 1) killing in the heat of the moment and 2)working toward the goal of ending the life of a specific person as part of your destiny. In the case of Bellatrix (mentioned later in your post),it is the difference between a "passion" killing, done in the heat of a very strong emotion, and a planned execution. An execution with pre-planning (what the prophecy tells Harry he must do to Voldemort) has a very different type of mental thought (intent) involved than a passion killing or a defense of life killing. These different kinds of killings are given different punishments or no punishment under criminal law for this reason of intent. [Note that homicide includes murder, manslaughter, and even other killings which are not punished crimes. For specific examples, look at dictionary.com, under "homicide."] Hope this answers the question. *grin* Estrilda From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Jul 13 19:38:17 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:38:17 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106047 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: >snip> > Perhaps at the time of the Shrieking Shack Fudge might have been just > entering the MoM, at about Percy's age? Would it take him 5-6 yrs to > become a Junior Minister? But he may have known of a Ministry > decision to let DD deal with this situation at the school, and not > intervene. After all, a lot of people in officialdom would have > needed to know that a werewolf was being taught there - it would > expose their decision as foolish if anyone got hurt. And we know they > are fully capable of gagging the press if they want to. > Kneasy: Just to interject: I have no direct evidence, just inferences, but I believe 1. The Ministry did not know that there was a werewolf student at the school and that there is no "Remus Lupin" entered in the Werewolf Register. 2. "Remus Lupin" is not his real name, but a nom de guerre, nom de plume, nom de chien or whatever you may wish to call it, assumed when he entered Hogwarts. 3. This being so DD *had* to keep it quiet. 4. His true identity may be a key factor in the story. I've posted this before. I'll try and dig out the post number. >Carolyn: > And as many have speculated, I could easily see this DD/MoM cover-up > being a trigger to turn the furious teenage Snape into a Voldy- > supporter as an initial way of getting revenge. Something brought him > back later, but at the time, I can see DD handling him just as badly > as he has Harry on other occasions. Yet another slip-up. > Kneasy: Quite possible. For a teacher of many years standing DD is not very clever when it comes to dealing with the awkward squad. And my original question remains - What made Snape trust DD after Shrieking Shack I? From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 19:46:46 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:46:46 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: <20040713161131.41557.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106048 cmtebb wrote : > but Ron has already been given that, hasn't he? He > proved himself at the Quidditch Cup. He wasn't in the > shadow of Harry and he blocked all those goals > /himself/, without anyone. Del replies : Well, I was thinking of something more *useful*, like something in the war. I mean, *Quidditch* ?! cmtebb wrote : > On another note, you don't think Ron will die? I have > been convinced, sadly. This is from The North Tower > and editorial by Maline Freden and mugglenet.com Del replies : All right, it could work. But I notice a couple of things that please me very much. cmtebb wrote : > Ron IS a knight, because this redhead boy is pure in heart and brave > as a real knight. He never was a king, or a commander." Del replies : Well, neither are Harry and Hermione then. Towers and bishops are not kings. cmtebb wrote : > Ron himself darted around the board, taking almost as many white > pieces as they had lost black ones." Del replies : Does that mean that it was Ron as a knight who was taking pieces, or Ron as the leader of the game ? In either case, he's showing himself to be very useful, either as a soldier or as a strategist. I think that *there* is the Big Act that I'm asking for Ron, the thing in which he will prove himself. cmtebb wrote : > "He stepped forward, and the white queen pounced. > She struck Ron hard across the head with her stone > arm, and he crashed to the floor - Hermione screamed > but stayed on her square - the white queen dragged Ron > to one side. He looked as if he'd been knocked out." Del replies : Hermione screamed, huh ? Del From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 19:44:04 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:44:04 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106049 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" < snip. > Kneasy: > Quite possible. For a teacher of many years standing DD is not very > clever when it comes to dealing with the awkward squad. > And my original question remains - What made Snape trust DD after > Shrieking Shack I? Alla: His conscience? Maybe knowing that he did not behave that well prior to Shrieking Shack? Maybe he indeed realised that Dumbledore did punish Sirius a smuch as he could under circumstances? From cruthw at earthlink.net Tue Jul 13 19:41:31 2004 From: cruthw at earthlink.net (caspenzoe) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:41:31 -0000 Subject: Pensieve (was Re: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: <20040713144203.75530.qmail@web53809.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106050 {Snip!] Nocturnus: > That in the assumption that objective thinking do exist. I had the feeling that JK ROWLING has a major flaw in her epistemic point of view. There is no possibility of an objective, or neutral, knowledge. An aseptic approach to the world is virtually impossible for human beings. (I'm following, Berger & Luckmann, Maturana & Varela)> With all due respect Noctornus, I don't see any evidence of flaws in JKR's epstemic point of view (or yours, actually, so it's possible I've misinterpreted you). I do see a flaw in both Del's and Aggie's epistimology - the same flaw - which as you've pointed out is their assumption that an "objecitve" view is in any way accessible to human beings. It's not. The statement you quoted, "An aseptic approach to the world is virtually impossible for human beings. (I'm following, Berger & Luckmann, Maturana & Varela)," is accepted and reliable (and as "unflawed" as possible) science and philosophy today. The object viewed (in this case the memory) is always colored by the point of view of the observer both before and after being placed in the pensieve. Therefore, there is nothing inherently objective in a memory that has been placed in a pensieve. There is however, something inherently more distant in viewing the memory in the pensieve as opposed to viewing it in one's own mind. The act of placing the memory in the pensieve, in and of itself, changes the observer's point of view to some extent - allowing for a MORE, though, by no means a definitively objective examination. So Del's complaint that one may never conclusively know he or she is understanding events correctly when viewing them in the pensieve is valid; however, his conclusion that this renders the excercise pointless is not. Casey From gertgal at aol.com Tue Jul 13 19:46:59 2004 From: gertgal at aol.com (Gielreta) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:46:59 -0000 Subject: The Gudgeon Family Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106051 It seems likely that there is a thread on this already, but the search turned up no matches. Has anyone noticed that Lockhart's biggest fan, one Gladys Gudgeon, bears the same, rather unusual name as the boy who taunted the Whomping Willow, Davey Gudgeon? It seems that the two must have some connection. Why else would JKR use the same surname twice? I looked up Gudgeon in the dictionary, and found that it can be the pivot around which a wheel turns, a small fish, an easily tricked person, or something easily obtained without skill or merit. Shakespeare uses it in the last sense. Any thoughts? Gielreta From tzakis1225 at netzero.com Tue Jul 13 19:53:45 2004 From: tzakis1225 at netzero.com (demetra1225) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:53:45 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius Lure Severus into the Whomping Willow? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106052 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "finwitch" wrote: > Indeed. James strongly disapproved of Dark Arts (it was Dark Arts, > not Defence Against Dark Arts) and Sirius as well... Snape, > however, "knew more curses when he came than most do at the end of > 7th year" - and it seems to me, is an addict to Dark Arts - so of > course Snape became their enemy. [snip] > And as reckless, thoughtless and whatnot as Sirius and James were, I > don't know how Sirius lured Snape into the Shack - was it even by > intention? They did _not_ know any Dark Arts. [snip] Demetra: We are told in the books that James hated the Dark Arts. I am inclined to agree that James did not know the Dark Arts. We are also told that Snape knew many advanced curses and knew the Dark Arts. But *addicted* to the Dark Arts - where did that come from? I can't think of one thing in canon that says this. And in all of this, Sirius is the unknown. We've seen that the house he grew up in was full of dark artifacts. We've heard what his mother was like. I think it is clear that he grew up in a family that, at the very least, dabbled in the Dart Arts. So why would you assume that Sirius didn't know any Dark Arts? I would assume that he did. The question then is what happened that made him split from his family and the Dark Arts? I assume that it was James. In the pensieve scene in "Snape's worst enemy", I think it is apparent that Sirius and James were the ringleaders. They were very close friends (as an aside, I see more "shippiness" in James/Sirius then in Remus/Sirius, even though I am sure it wasn't JKR's intent). At any rate, my point is that James and his passionate hatred of all things Dark is probably what made Sirius split from his family and why Sirius hated the Dark Arts. If it wasn't for his friendship with James, Sirius could well have taken the path of Snape and the "gang of Slytherins". Demetra From dzeytoun at cox.net Tue Jul 13 19:32:18 2004 From: dzeytoun at cox.net (dzeytoun at cox.net) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:32:18 -0400 Subject: Snape, Harry, and Dumbledore II: Occlumency Message-ID: <20040713193215.FYBF20527.lakermmtao11.cox.net@smtp.east.cox.net> No: HPFGUIDX 106053 The discussion about Snape, Harry, and Dumbledore wandered into the area of the infamous Occlumency lessons, which got me to thinking of a different angle on that controversy. Mostly we argue about whether Snape or Harry was (more) to blame, and often end up saying that the whole thing was doomed from the start, considering the two personalities. But I want to come at it a different way. What on Earth did DUMBLEDORE expect? First, I will say that I don't believe the theories that Occlumency ended because Harry had learned what he needed. Nothing whatsoever in canon supports that. Occlumency is presented in canon as a failure and WAS a failure. But how did Dumbledore expect that Harry would be able to learn from Snape? Did he think Harry could just swallow everything even after acting out all the first part of the year? He says that he thought Snape would be able to "overcome his feelings" about James. But what does that mean? That he thought Snape would be nicer? That he thought Snape would be more patient? I see this as a two-fold failure: 1) In his anxiety, Dumbledore forgot the nature of Occlumency training. That type of intense, practical education is much more akin to an apprenticeship model than a school model. In that situation the personal characteristics of the teacher, i.e. their way of giving praise and/or correction, their patience or lack thereof, their general rapport with the students, is a crucial component of their teaching method. In a sense, personality IS teaching method. Dumbledore did not adequately consider this in his haste. 2) More fundamentally, Dumbledore just did not get it. He simply did not understand the depth of animosity between Snape and Harry. Ddore admits this obliquely with his "some wounds run too deep" remark. I think this is in keeping with a weak spot we have now seen in his personality, his desire to believe the best of people and situations. The big problem is he STILL does not get it. I don't think even now he realizes the depth of ill will between these two, particularly the depths of Harry's dislike which is now slipping into outright hatred. This doesn't bode well for the future. If Dumbledore thought an added advantage of Occlumency might be Snape and Harry coming to a better understanding and place of mutual respect, I think that runs afoul of both issues above. Any thoughts? Dzeytoun From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 13 20:13:01 2004 From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:13:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) Rethink In-Reply-To: <20040712162113.64125.qmail@web25307.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040713201301.7206.qmail@web25302.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106054 Udderpd again I have been following this chain which I started and I would like to add somthing. Ron likes Hermione, WHY, because she is the only girl he ever talks to (I don't count his sister). If he tried to mix and have a conversation with some other girls he may learn somthing about himself and more importantly about girls. He always moans that he doesn't understand them but he makes no attempt to try too and he isn't going to get anywhere with any girl unless he tries I believe that Hermione is an exception to this rule, I guess her IQ to be around 145 and she knows him very well. She knows exactly what a plonker he is and if she fancied him she would tell him in no uncertain terms. She knows that nothing else would get through his thick skull. Luna may well be another exception for a different reason she seems to be fundamentally in touch with many things and I think that she has been added to the story for Ron (she knows what he has been up to from when we first meet her on the train). She is known to Ginny and they don't live far apart, is this blind Ron again? I think that that is enough to be going on with. TTFN Udder PenDragon ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Tue Jul 13 20:21:11 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:21:11 -0000 Subject: Prefects and points In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106055 Del wrote: > But Ron is like most of us : not overly intelligent, not overly > studious, not overly lucky, and not the hero of the game. *But* he > has ambition, he *wants* to become someone, to prove himself, just > like most of us. So if he turned out to be there just for fun, the > message I would get out of it all would be : "Sorry, if you're not > > born special, you will never become so. You'll always be just a joke. > You'll never be the hero of anything. It's not even worth trying, > because it won't happen." And I just happen to HATE that sort of > message. It would right away turn me off HP (both the books and the > character). Arya answered : > But, but, but....if Ron doesn't remain just "normal" and he has to > change and become more than "comic relief" then doesn't that say that > the normal guy is nothing? There's an awful lot to be said for the > average guy and it does take a certain type of courage to be content > with being just who you are (as opposed to trying to be more and > appear more in the eyes of others). Del replies : But I'm NOT saying that Ron wants to appear more than he is. I'm saying that Ron IS more than he appears. At the end of PS/SS, DD tells something to Harry that has been used in this group over and over again : It's not our abilities that determine who we are, but our choices (or something like that). ----------------- Arya now: But, we also learn that we do not always have choices. Look at the prophecy--have is fated to walk a very narrow line that could very well end in his death. Does he have a choice in that? No--he has a choice in *accepting* his fate and *that* will most certainly determine his ability to prepare to *survive* his fate. Sure there are choices everyone gets to make in their life but we do not necessarily get to decided when and where we have choices to choose from. --------------- Del wrote: Ron made *amazing* choices for someone normal. He repeatedly chose to face mortal danger. He repeatedly chose to go right along Harry in dangerous endeavours. He constantly supported Harry through whatever Harry had to go through (except in one single time and he repented from it). He shares everything he has with Harry (most notably his family) without ever asking anything in return. In fact, when asked to give Ron's most defining quality, people will most often say that he's an amazing friend. But that's because he's put Harry's interests before his own over and over again. ------------- Arya now: I'm not entirely convinced this all conscious to Ron. I think Harry being his friend *is* Ron's interest and so, that's what prompts him to be there for Harry. Ron's choice, I think, is yet to come in choosing to either stick it out even more so with Harry (the right choice) or to fall prey some inner jealousy or wish to do his own thing for himself (the easy one by comparison). --------------- Del wrote: So Ron makes all these amazing choices, but in the end he will still be someone average, someone normal ? While of course, in the meantime, Harry will have gone from hero to super-hero, because of his own choices ? Sorry, I call that unfair. ------- Arya now: Well, unfortunately for all of us, life simply is not fair. JKR's little world is no exception. Just ask Harry. Of all the things in Ron's life, if he survives the war as Harry's best friend, he would be lucky to just alive. ---------- Del wrote: If DD (JKR) meant to say that it's not his abilities that will define *Harry* but his choices, then he (she) should not have made such a general statement. ------ Arya now: Again, I don't think the "choices" statement means the same thing you do. -------- Del wrote: If on the other hand, she truly meant it, then Ron should end up amazing, because he's made amazing choices. In fact, I believe he's *already* amazing, because those choices have already affected him for the better, but somehow JKR isn't showing us that. She keeps insisting on how common he is, on how laughable he is, on all his failings, she makes him look like a stupid dork who has never done anything exceptional in his life. But he's simply not that. ------- Arya now: You're not the only one who believe this, but tehre are also plenty of us, and possibly even JKR, who think Ron really may be just this. End of story. He's the exxageration of "ordinary". ------- Del wrote: Arya 1st wrote : > It's not easy to just be average and be happy and happy enough to > joke around and to in the shadow of Harry (and even Hermione). Del replies : No, it's not easy, especially when you took a very active and equal part in what made Harry and Hermione shine ! --------- Arya now: I disagree. I think Harry and Hermione would shine on their own. They may be better with Ron but neither is dependent on him for being who they are. -------- Arya 1st wrote : > So I think Ron's got his cross to bear (this shadow) and he doesn't > NEED to rise up and shine in a bright and glorious way so that the > last book has to be called "Harry, Ron and Hermione: The Most Equal > of Friends". All Ron's need to do is endure to be there at Harry's > side and *that* will make him a hero in his own right. Del replies : Oh, because Harry, Ron and Hermione are *not* equal ?? I guess I'm right then : JKR lied to us through DD, and it's *not* our choices who define who we are, it's what we were born. Wonderful. Not. -------------- Arya now: Nope. IMO, I do not think the Trio is equal. Sorry. I think it's Harry, then Hermione, and then Ron. but that doesn't mean one is better than the other as a person. People are not judged comparitively in the end; it's more like Danish judging (from 4H), where each individual is judged on their own unique circumstances and individual acheivements. -------------- Arya 1st wrote : > We all have paths, we all have some purpose--not everyone is meant to > walk in front and lead--someone has to walk behind and follow. Del replies : I know we keep talking about how Ron and Hermione follow Harry, but it's a wrong choice of word : Harry, Ron and Hermione work as partners, they work side-by-side, it's not Harry in the front and Ron and Hermione in the back. ----------- Arya now: And I think it often is. Alhtough, quite often, I see Hermione trying to lead, too. And she also points out the way for Harry. -------- Del wrote: Just because Harry always end up fighting LV alone in the end because of convenient obstacles that block his friends on the way, doesn't mean they ever *intend* things to be that way. If they could, Ron and Hermione would always be right next to Harry any time he faces danger. Ron would gladly take an equal share of the burden and the danger if he could. His *choices* are just as brave as Harry's, and his personality is just as noble as Harry's. He *is* Harry's equal in character. But JKR just doesn't show that. ---------- Arya now: Well, as the HP universe is limited to what JKR invents and shows, then you can't rally for equality of one person like they are a race oppressed. JKR *chooses* for Harry to be The One and The One Alone who has to face *his* fate. I think, sometimes people identify with someone other than Harry (a foreign concept to me until I came into fandom years ago) and then try to be an advocate for that character in a bid for them to be regarded as an unsung hero. That's great if one can feel better about themselves through the books but sometimes, I think it reaches a point where readers are left over-championing someone who just isn't meant to be a champion. As it is, the only one you can hang your hopes on and the one you should be rooting for as he is the main dude of the books (Remember Harry? The kid with the scar?) is Harry Potter. The rest of them are all supporting chracters. Harry is the champion of the books; the hero and the one for whom we are meant to feel empathy for and to root for. Ron, in all his ordinaryness, may just be a plot to show how wonderful a friend *Harry* is by Harry's willingness to go into the bowels of the earth to slay a Basilisk for this ordinary's friend sister. Sorry, the plot does not *need* to show the triumph of Ron to be good fiction; it needs to show the trials (and fate) of Harry. ---------- Arya 1st wrote : > There *is* heroism in accepting the simple path before you and not > forsaking it for the pursuit of one's own glory. Del replies : Yo, one *simple* path indeed it is, to brave danger and death right alongside Harry !! And I wasn't talking about Ron pursuing his own glory. I was talking about his true personality finally shining through : brave, noble, tenacious, generous. Everyone keeps talking about how Harry is all of that and more, but I say that Ron is no less either. ----------- Arya now: But, um, he is. Ron *is* less. Otherwise the books would be about him. Sure he's no less a person (fictional as he is) but he *IS* less of a character. Perspective, perspective, perspective!! ----------- Arya 1st wrote : > Harry *needs* his friends and I can see Ron having a test of his > character in having to decided to remain at Harry's side and in his > shadow versus pursuing the fame that Harry has which he envies so. Del replies : First, as I said, I wasn't talking about Ron going after his own glory. just about his brightness inside finally showing through. And second : Harry doesn't own Ron. If Ron did indeed decide to leave Harry to pursue his own dreams, it would be his most basic right. It would in no way be a test of his character, because there would be no failing option. It would be no treason or abandonment of Harry. Whether Ron would choose to stay with Harry or to leave him would be equally good and right. If Ron decided to stay with Harry, it would be a sign of true charity : putting another's needs before his own. And Ron has already shown signs that he does indeed possess quite large amounts of that most remarkable quality. Ron *is* great, because he, the ordinary boy, made extraordinary decisions. Why does JKR hide that fact ? -------------- Arya now: If you admit she is "hiding" it, then perhaps it's that it just isn't meant to be there??? They're books. They're books about Harry. Ron is Harry's best friend. See how Ron is removed from the center of it all? I think sometimes the characters need to be put back *into* the books, not dragged out into the harsh light of reality, and then, looking at the proverbial forest through the trees (or overall story through the tales), we readers need to regain some perspective. Arya From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Tue Jul 13 20:23:33 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:23:33 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Gudgeon Family Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106056 Gielreta I looked up Gudgeon in the dictionary, and found that it can be the pivot around which a wheel turns, a small fish, an easily tricked person, or something easily obtained without skill or merit. Shakespeare uses it in the last sense. Any thoughts? Gina: Well taunting the Willow would not be something someone with a lot of sense would do and Lockhart obtains all his fans without a lot of skill or merit so maybe that is the connection. Two easily tricked, gullible people named Gudgeon. Maybe they will be tricked into doing something for LV or into helping the Order. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 20:25:22 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:25:22 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106057 mayeaux45 wrote: > Del, the 'poor me' syndrome that Ron has is getting a little bit > old. Don't you think? Del replies : I *never* said that Ron had a poor me syndrome. In fact, Ron almost never complains, and when he does he never draws comparisons, he only says that he hates being poor. Now, *I* am the one who has a "poor Ron" syndrome, you see :-) Don't blame Ron for my problems. I have a feeling he wouldn't like what I'm saying about him anyway. Mayeaux wrote : > In a nutshell, the ONLY person that has it WORSE OFF than ANYONE is > Harry. Del replies : Yeah yeah, I know, poor poor Harry, who has it so bad than everyone else should fight among themselves for the privilege of being able to say that they are the one who has it best. Sorry, it just doesn't work like that for me. Just because Harry has it bad doesn't mean nobody else can have it bad too and suffer because of it. Are you going to forbid Neville from suffering from seeing his parents insane, just because he doesn't have it as bad as Harry too ? Mayeaux wrote : > Like Anasazi said he (Ron) maybe poor and gets hand me downs, but > atleast he has that support system of a *real* family (mother, > father, sister and brothers). Del replies : A wonderful support system who made him feel like he would never be anyone unless he lived up to his parents' expectations and older brothers' achievements. A real family is not just or always a support system, it can be a burden too. Mayeaux wrote : > And Ron is not considered just Number 6 in their house hold. I'm > sure JKR would agree with that. Del replies : I don't care anymore what JKR has to say about Ron, not since she proved that she's prejudiced against him (see : Ron the Prefect ? thread). Mayeaux wrote : > ALL the Weasley children are LOVED by Arthur and Molly! Del replies : I didn't say Ron wasn't loved, I said he wasn't loved for *who* he was (Ron), but for *what* he was (one of their kids). They don't care about his inside (self-esteem, tastes, ambitions), they only care about his outside (food, clothes). Mayeaux wrote : > Look at Percy...he's a horrible git who turned his back > on his family for personal gain in the MoM and yet Arthur and Molly > still LOVE him all the same. He was extremely smart as well (also > being made Prefect and Head Boy)...but that doesn't necessarily mean > ANYTHING, now does it? Del replies : You haven't read my defence of Percy, have you ? And Arthur has a strange way of showing that he still loves his son, acting just like the teenager Percy still is and ignoring his son. Arthur turned his back on his son just as much as Percy turned his back on his family. Del From fauntine_80 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 20:25:41 2004 From: fauntine_80 at yahoo.com (fauntine_80) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:25:41 -0000 Subject: Why Fret About Voldemort Considering Riddle? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106058 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Louis Badalament" wrote: > > But my question is... why? Why does he even *feel* this guilt? > Remember book 2? He killed Tom Riddle easily enough. He was, in > fact, rather proud of the accomplishment, even years later... > > > - Louis Badalament > > P.S.: Harry also didn't seem to have any qualms about ending > Bellatrix Lestrange's life, either; > > --- > > 'SHE KILLED SIRIUS!' bellowed Harry. 'SHE KILLED HIM, I'LL KILL HER!' > And he was off, scrambling up the stone benches... > > --- > > No sympathy for the one who killed his godfather, and yet Harry > feels regrets about killing the one who murdered his father and > mother? It's all very weird to me. Well, Harry reacted in the heat of the moment for Bellatrix. I don't think he actually would have killed her had he the chance. He was in a rage - and wanted revenge. If you did notice, he didn't shout "Avada Kedavra" at her, but "Crucio." Just as bad, almost, but never the less, he didn't try to kill her. As for TR, TR hadn't taken fully human form yet and by stabbing the diary, HP was only destroying a memory - not an actual person. Now, while HP is being explained the whole prophecy by DD, he is a bit calmer, though still upset, and suddely there is a huge realization upon his part. I think he would have reacted the same if someone told him he was going to have to kill Bellatrix while he was in a calmer mood. And, let us not forget his reaction in the Shrieking Shack - he aimed to kill Sirius, but could not. It's just not in HP's nature to want to cause harm. ~Mo From patientx3 at aol.com Tue Jul 13 20:30:48 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:30:48 -0000 Subject: Snape, Harry, and Dumbledore II: Occlumency In-Reply-To: <20040713193215.FYBF20527.lakermmtao11.cox.net@smtp.east.cox.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106059 Dzeytoun wrote: >>But how did Dumbledore expect that Harry would be able to learn from Snape? Did he think Harry could just swallow everything even after acting out all the first part of the year? [snip] I see this as a two-fold failure: 1) In his anxiety, Dumbledore forgot the nature of Occlumency training. [snip] 2) More fundamentally, Dumbledore just did not get it. He simply did not understand the depth of animosity between Snape and Harry. << HunterGreen: While both of those are very good points, I think the biggest reason it didn't work is that Harry never understood or accepted why it was so important. Dumbledore's biggest folly was not having Snape teach it to Harry, but having Snape be the one explaining to Harry why it was important. Of course, Sirius told Harry it was important too, but Harry wasn't really listening to him either. Dumbledore shouldn't have had Snape bother if he didn't want to tell Harry the *exact* reason why he needed to learn it (that being that Voldemort wanted to lure him to the MoM). Dumbledore just didn't understand Harry's perspective at all in all this. Especially after the snake incident, Harry didn't quite see why he *needed* to shut off his brain. It was a good idea to teach him Occulmency, but if Dumbledore had explained it himself (and yes, I know it was impossible at the time), he would have known that unless he gave Harry more information it wasn't going to be successful. The skill is so precise that Harry'd HAVE to be committed to learning to be successful (and perhaps if he was, he still wouldn't have suceeded, occulmency seems impossible for the average teenager, since ridding yourself of emotion at that age is especially difficult). Dzeytoun wrote: >> If Dumbledore thought an added advantage of Occlumency might be Snape and Harry coming to a better understanding and place of mutual respect, I think that runs afoul of both issues above. << HunterGreen: Clearly, in the short-run their relationship has suffered, but I think both of them *have* come to a better understanding of each other. Harry has learned that Snape had a reason to hate his father, and Snape has learned that Harry's childhood was starkly different than James'. Neither seem to have done anything with this new understanding, but its more than they had before. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 20:28:43 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:28:43 -0000 Subject: Goyle and Babyhead (was Re: Draco Malfoy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106060 I (Carol) wrote: You mentioned Goyle Sr. in the part of your post that I snipped. It's true that he wasn't named by Lucius Malfoy in what amounts to a roll call of the DEs present in the MoM, but he could be the baby-headed Death Eater, who was out of the picture at that point if I recall correctly. Since the other DEs were rounded up and placed under an anti-apparating spell, the baby-head and the injured Nott were probably also caught and placed in St. Mungo's. Whether they were cured and sent to Azkaban or are still in the hospital is anybody's guess. But Gregory Goyle's behavior at the end of GoF suggests that his father shared the fate of Crabbe Sr. and Lucius Malfoy, meaning that Goyle Sr. is probably in Azkaban with his DE friends. Only Bellatrix and Voldemort escaped, as far as we know. Potioncat responded: > > Actually Carol, someone did actually come up with canon for naming > all 12 DEs at the DoM and Goyle was not one. Carol responds: Yes, I know. That's what I meant by the "roll call," the passage where Lucius names everyone who's present and pairs them off (the same place where he callously tells them to "Leave Nott!"). I noticed the first time I read the chapter that Goyle's name is not among them, which I thought (and still think) was odd given Goyle Jr.'s unchanged relationship with Crabbe Jr. and Draco at the end of OoP. Something is up. Either Goyle Sr. is part of a plan to rescue the others despite being deficient in the brains department (otherwise his son's continued friendship with Draco is unaccountable) or his absence is a flint and JKR just forgot to include him in Malfoy's list. I thought maybe the incident with the Baby-headed Death Eater occurred before the roll call, in which case Goyle wouldn't be among those whose names are called because he's incapacitated. That would have been a possible explanation for Goyle's name not being included (which I knew it wasn't.) Truth be told, I was being lazy and hoping that someone else would look it up for me, but, alas, I'm reduced to doing it myself. Lucius names the DEs on page 788 (Am. ed.). The injured Nott is abandoned; Bellatrix is paired with her husband, Rodolphus; his brother Rabastan is with Crabbe; Jugson with Dolohov; Macnair with Avery; and Mulciber with Malfoy himself. Rookwood is left without a partner. Unfortunately for my theory, the baby-head incident occurs two pages later (p. 790, Am. ed.), so it can't be Goyle. And it isn't Dolohov, who's later identified, or his partner, Jugson, who appears with him just after the bab-head incident; it can't be Rodolphus, whose partner is Bellatrix (the baby-head has a male partner); it can't be the partnerless Rookwood (who's specifically identified later, anyway); and it can't be Mulciber, who's with Malfoy. It's not Macnair, who later gets stabbed in the eye by Harry's wand. That leaves Crabbe, Rabastan Lestrange, and Avery. But I don't think it's Avery, because Harry would have recognized him (or at least his voice). And he saw a younger Rabastan in the Pensieve and *might* be able to recognize him. More important in my view, Bellatrix later appears as the leader of three Death Eaters, one of whom is probably Rabastan, who has lost his partner and joined with his brother and sister-in-law as he did when they Crucio'd the Longbottoms. So the baby-head is probably Crabbe Sr., Rabastan's partner. If so, is he in St. Mungo's or Azkaban? Either way, Crabbe Jr. has good reason for a grudge against Harry and his friends, as does Draco. (Theo Nott is another matter. If he finds out that Draco's dad ordered the others to abandon *his* father. . . .) And to return to the original question, where is Goyle Sr.? If he really wasn't in the MoM, why is Draco still on good terms with Goyle Jr., who acts as if his father is in Azkaban, too? Clearly he isn't, unless it's a flint, so what's up? And is Crabbe Sr. rather than Goyle Sr. in St. Mungo's closed ward? Carol, expecting an encounter between Harry and one or more DEs' sons next time Harry visits St. Mungo's From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Tue Jul 13 20:34:12 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:34:12 -0000 Subject: Prefects and points In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106061 "serenadust" wrote: If Ron's intended to be merely "sidekick/comic relief/best mate/support to Harry, then JKR's gone rather badly astray in having him chosen as prefect and having him finally overcome his Quidditch demons without any help from either Harry or Hermione. If Ron is simply meant to be a clown, then she's wasted a lot of page-time in a book that was already huge. I'm convinced that the development of his character in OOP indicates a story arc which will have Ron coming into his own as an individual and who will have no need to stand in anyones shadow. ---------------- Actually, I'd have to say she used Ron's not-so-shining performance as a prefect to the effect of some comic relief and she's hinted at Ron not really having "overcome" his (again, comical) Quidditch issues--it was only 1 game of 4 he did well in and she hinted he might not even make the cut from the next captain in book 6. I see her putting Ron under trial and him suffering for it at the expense of our amusement. Sure Ron will have another bright and shining moment like when he sacrificed himself on that Knight....eventually. But that does not mean he needs a whole build up. He did that back in first year and he'd do it again without any character developement---that is, unless he is challenged to stand by Harry. The book--good writing--needs tension and we the readers need to feel a tension and on edge when Ron is put upon this choice. I think it is crucial to Ron's own storyline that he is challenged and made to make a choice--at a most critical juncture--of what is right and what is easy. It's my firm belief that Ron is likely to give his life in the end and go out in a blaze of glory. Arya From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 20:37:04 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:37:04 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106062 > Del replies : > I *never* said that Ron had a poor me syndrome. In fact, Ron almost > never complains, and when he does he never draws comparisons, he only > says that he hates being poor. snip. Alla: Oh, yes he does have "a poor me"syndrome. If many people will not find all the examples of him complaining till the time I am home, I will definitely do it. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Jul 13 20:37:57 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:37:57 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius lure Severus into the Willow? (was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106063 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aggiepaddy" wrote: > > The thing is (and you SO remind me of my Dad!) is that we LOVE coming > up with wild guesses, even if they are based on the residue vapour of > a rumour from Aunt Marge's neighbour's cousin's cat. . .who happens > to be Mrs Norris!! It's fun!! I'm not saying that your way isn't > fun for you, I'm sure it is, like I said it's how I would expect my > Dad to behave on here! I do apologise if you're younger than me (I'm > 31 in a couple of weeks!) and hope you don't take offence at this. > I'm not trying to offend you! > Well - I am old enough to be your dad, but I don't think I am. I don't mind wild theories; with HP you can come up with beauties - and if you search long enough find tatters of canon to support them. The list of my theories is long and disreputable (yippee!), though I think it's likely that most if not all have been offered before in the dim and distant past of the site. There's little that's truly new. Hell, this current thread about Florence - kissing Snape? Huh. I had 'em married with a kid - that's the "crying child" memory of Snape's. There's very little in the way of consensus that I won't pervert given a chance, but I do like at least a toe-hold in canon to start the theory off. When posters speculate about the use of spells that have never been mentioned in the books, just to clear up an awkward point, or invent 'past events' to explain relationships or situations, then I start to shift uneasily in my chair. JKR says that there are clues. Fine. So find 'em. Making things up should be un-necessary and is quite possibly counter-productive. It reduces the whole thing to a guessing game - and it's not, it's a collection of puzzles. We just(!) have to fit the pieces together the right way. So I'm a grumpy old curmudgeon despairing of the younger generation; so what? It's no handicap. I used to throw quotations about freely, not so often now, but here's a couple that cover at least part of my views on canon, posts and theories: Age and mendacity beats youth and enthusiasm (Trad.), and "Give me six sentences written by the most innocent man and I will find something in them to hang him..." (Cardinal Richelieu) Though sometimes it takes more than six; must be getting old... Kneasy From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 13 20:40:41 2004 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:40:41 -0000 Subject: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106064 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "huntergreen_3" wrote: [Regarding Harry's failure at occlumency] > Exactly. Lupin's method's worked not because he was better or because > the method was better (which it wasn't, that was my point, the method > was the *same*), but because Harry *wanted* to learn. Harry not > learning in this instance has very little to do with Snape's > teaching, it just seems like its Snape's fault because he was so > nasty about it (and because Harry tries to blame him). Actually Harry had the exact same problem when he was studying the Patronus. He failed during the lessons because he was torn between his desire to overcome the dementors vs his desire to hear his parents' voice. When studying occlumency Harry was torn between his desire to not be controlled by LV and his curiosity about what the black door hid. However, by its very nature occlumency is harder for Harry to master. It requires one to empty themselves of all emotions (if we can trust Snape's explanation on the matter). A patronus calls for mastering up your happiest thoughts - i.e. use your emotions in a positive manner. Harry is a very emotional person and I doubt could have mastered occlumency even with a better suited teacher. With Snape he had the added problem of having very strong (negative) feelings towards the teacher, which made it doubly hard. > That's true. And that's one of the things that really bothered me > when I was reading OotP. Harry and the others had no real plan > besides just walzting into the MoM, as though a bunch of kids could > save Sirius from *death eaters*. Well, this actually makes sense to me. For one thing, they *are* kids. One should not expect them to make the same level of planning and preparation you'd expect from adults. For another, there was simply no time - they were dealing with one crisis after the next. Besides, they did not know that there were death eaters waiting. The vision (which remember, Harry took for a true one) showed noone but Sirius and Voldemort were at the DoM. . in this instance they should have tried to find another adult > besides Snape to tell the story to (I'm sure they could have found a > way to contact at least Ron's parents). How? It would have to be a member of the order (Sirius was viewed as an insane murderer by anyone else) and all means of communication except for Umbridge's office were controlled. Not only that, it would mean that Harry would have to reveal to the incredulous adult that not only is Voldemort after Sirius, but that he, Harry, has seen it in his dreams - he'd be lucky to avoid St. Mungo's after that! :-) He should have thought of Snape, true, but in light of their last encounter one would tend to forgive Harry for passing that option over. > The whole thing was just > ridiculous, I can understand Harry and Ron rushing off without > thinking about it, but Hermione? And then Luna, Neville and Ginny? > (esepecially since they barely knew what was going on). No, this showed their loyalty and trust in Harry. Do you think they could have just let them rush off on their own? Remember, there *was* no adult there that they felt they could turn to, with DD, McGonagal, Hagrid all gone and all communications controlled by Umbridge. The failure was Dumbledore's (as he readily and rightly admitted it at the end). Once the crisis came, there was no real way for Harry and friends to act differently (except sadly for talking to Snape or remembering the parting christmas gift that Sirius gave Harry). Salit From rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu Tue Jul 13 20:39:19 2004 From: rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu (susanbones2003) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:39:19 -0000 Subject: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books/only ifs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106065 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brenda M." wrote: > >>> Susan Bones 2003 wrote: > > Your last paragraph brings up something that I've always wanted to > > count: the "ONLY IFS." > > What if Harry had made the decision to ask an adult about something > > bothering him, or used something at his disposal, or not gone > > somewhere. The list goes one. Does anyone want to contribute to the > > ONLY IFS list? > > 1. Telling Sirius about the Frank Bryce dream. > > 2. Telling Dumbledore his dreams in OOTP. > > > Bren now: > > Well, there is that infamous > > 3. Opening Sirius' gift right after Christmas holidays > 4. Opening Hogwarts acceptance letter quietly in his Cupboard (but > old news and not affecting the plot either way, just my personal wish) > > and just for fun, > > 5. Asking Ginny out for the Yule Ball (just for fun, please no SHIP debate!) >> Brenda 5. What if he hadn't met Madeye Moody/Barty Crouch Jr. during his midnight run to the prefect's bathroom? And hadn't given him the Marauder's Map? 6. If only he'd not left Viktor Krum at the edge of the forest (granted that's closely related to #5 but still...) there are others, just need to really sit down and process this. This facet of the plot development seems to drive an awful lot and I haven't seen much about it on the list. Jennifer From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 20:41:22 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:41:22 -0000 Subject: Prefects and points In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106066 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" wrote: > > As it is, the only one you can hang your hopes on and the one you > should be rooting for as he is the main dude of the books (Remember > Harry? The kid with the scar?) is Harry Potter. The rest of them are > all supporting chracters. Harry is the champion of the books; the > hero and the one for whom we are meant to feel empathy for and to root > for. Alla: What do you mean by saying "the only one you should be rooting for"? You know, sometimes great literature takes a life of its own regardless of what author intended. Author cannot force people which characters they should like or not. If JKR wants us to like Harry more than other characters, well, it works pretty well with me, but what if other people do not want to pay any attention (OK, I concede that is impossible) to Harry's trials and care only about Ron, or Hermione, or Maraders, or.... even Snape? :o) This is perfectly valid POV, you know. From BrwNeil at aol.com Tue Jul 13 20:49:45 2004 From: BrwNeil at aol.com (BrwNeil at aol.com) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:49:45 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (i... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106067 In a message dated 7/13/2004 9:37:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, delwynmarch at yahoo.com writes: Anasazi wrote : > He may not be the brightest boy when it comes to school (neither is > Harry - the position belongs solely to Draco), On want canon is this based? We've only ever seen Draco in Hagrid's class and Snape's and I can't remember him being singled out as a gret student. Neil The Nefarious Court Jester of the Royal Family of Cliffies [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Tue Jul 13 20:49:56 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:49:56 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106068 "delwynmarch" wrote: I don't care anymore what JKR has to say about Ron, not since she proved that she's prejudiced against him (see : Ron the Prefect thread). ---------- Just one quick snip here because I think this shows where I think you (Del) have gone off the track a bit. See, I now have to ask--what are you hoping for if you sound to me like you're admiting that JKR's Ron is likely not *your* Ron? Do you forsake the rest of the books now and vow your eyes only to fanfic? JKR's Ron is the ONLY Ron there is. You and I can speculate all day long on what he might become (canon fodder in the war or a hero the likes of tales for ages to come) but it's all just speculation and Ron is still only what he's been shown to be in the past books. Unlike a real person, his future is not up to him, it is up to the author. So, if you're saying that JKR is prejudiced against Ron in your opinion and view, than I'd say it's time to just fret more about his future in canon than other readers seeing him as less than you do. (I am sooo not trying to sound snarky or mean here and I guess, as you've been Ron's vocal defender today, I am addressing you in regards to comments I've seen made by others, far and wide over the past year both here and elsewhere. I just think authorial intent can tell us an awful lot about what to expect.) respectfully, Arya From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Jul 13 20:55:22 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:55:22 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106069 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > His conscience? Maybe knowing that he did not behave that well prior > to Shrieking Shack? > > Maybe he indeed realised that Dumbledore did punish Sirius a smuch as > he could under circumstances? OK. That's your theory. Very nice. Now can we have some canon please regarding Snape's conscience and Sirius's punishment. Because so far as I can see neither exist. Kneasy From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Tue Jul 13 20:55:34 2004 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:55:34 -0000 Subject: Prefects and points In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106070 "Arya" 1st wrote: > > > > As it is, the only one you can hang your hopes on and the one you > > should be rooting for as he is the main dude of the books (Remember > > Harry? The kid with the scar?) is Harry Potter. The rest of them > are > > all supporting chracters. Harry is the champion of the books; the > > hero and the one for whom we are meant to feel empathy for and to > root > > for. > > > Alla: > > What do you mean by saying "the only one you should be rooting for"? > You know, sometimes great literature takes a life of its own > regardless of what author intended. > > Author cannot force people which characters they should like or not. > > If JKR wants us to like Harry more than other characters, well, it > works pretty well with me, but what if other people do not want to > pay any attention (OK, I concede that is impossible) to Harry's > trials and care only about Ron, or Hermione, or Maraders, or.... even > Snape? :o) --------- I know, I know but I guess I mean I think it's a bit ludicris that people seem to root for other characters *more* than Harry. Of course it happens, but remember how JKR expressed surprise and a little concern for the sanity (perhaps) of those who root for the Slytherins? I think she's surprised there are those rooting for "the bad guys". I don't think it's the "loyalties" she's intended the readers to have. Sure, it is because the books have taken on a life of their own--that's an excellent point--but it's dangerous (meaning, I think it risks disappointment) to root for someone or anyone who is not the protagonist. Arya From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 21:02:01 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:02:01 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106071 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" > wrote: > > > > His conscience? Maybe knowing that he did not behave that well prior > > to Shrieking Shack? > > > > Maybe he indeed realised that Dumbledore did punish Sirius a smuch as > > he could under circumstances? > > OK. That's your theory. Very nice. > Now can we have some canon please regarding Snape's conscience and > Sirius's punishment. > Because so far as I can see neither exist. > > Kneasy Alla: KNeasy, if I had "direct canon", I would have given it to you in my reply. So, far it is just a speculation, but as far as I can see entirely reasonable one based on: 1. There is no canon exists that Sirius was not punished either, only that he was not expelled (as I said earlier) So, guesses in both sides have equal validity. 2. Snape does have a conscience (very deep inside), because he left Voldie. Besides, I forgot the most important thing. You meant Snape trusting Dumbledore when he came back to teach, right? (Sorry, I honestly got confused) Well, by that time, Snape is in Dumbledore debt already. He vouched for him at the trial, he most likely saved him from Azkaban. I would say it is not even a question of trust, it is a question of debt. (don't know whether a life one, but definitely a debt) From alina at distantplace.net Tue Jul 13 21:13:52 2004 From: alina at distantplace.net (Alina) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:13:52 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Gudgeon Family References: Message-ID: <001301c4691e$4cc91b40$578e968e@Pandemonium> No: HPFGUIDX 106073 > It seems likely that there is a thread on this already, but the > search turned up no matches. Has anyone noticed that Lockhart's > biggest fan, one Gladys Gudgeon, bears the same, rather unusual name > as the boy who taunted the Whomping Willow, Davey Gudgeon? It seems > that the two must have some connection. Why else would JKR use the > same surname twice? Gielreta Isn't that the kind of reasoning Mark Evans theorists used? Heh, after that fiasco I'm no longer attributing any importance to JKR's naming, I have been disillusioned. In fact, I am 100% sure that there is no significance to there being two characters named Gudgeon. JKR probably just forgot that she already used the name and used it a second time. Or she just couldnt' come up with anything else and didn't want to use Brown or Thomas for fear of persecution by rabid fans. Alina. From patientx3 at aol.com Tue Jul 13 21:18:37 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:18:37 -0000 Subject: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106074 Salit wrote: >>Harry had the exact same problem when he was studying the Patronus. He failed during the lessons because he was torn between his desire to overcome the dementors vs his desire to hear his parents' voice. When studying occlumency Harry was torn between his desire to not be controlled by LV and his curiosity about what the black door hid.<< Yes, but with the patronus he had the reason of not wanting to fall off his broom during quidditch again, whereas he had nothing like that pushing him with occulmency. He only had people *telling* him it was important. >> However, by its very nature occlumency is harder for Harry to master. It requires one to empty themselves of all emotions (if we can trust Snape's explanation on the matter). A patronus calls for mastering up your happiest thoughts - i.e. use your emotions in a positive manner. Harry is a very emotional person and I doubt could have mastered occlumency even with a better suited teacher. With Snape he had the added problem of having very strong (negative) feelings towards the teacher, which made it doubly hard. << Agreed. I doubt Harry had much of a chance learning Occulmency. However, although his negative feelings toward Snape made it harder for him to empty himself of emotion, it did give him at least one incentive to attempt to learn it, that being that he was mildly afraid of Snape. (however, that wasn't enough to make him practice, just enough to make him feel guilty about not pracising). HunterGreen previously: > That's true. And that's one of the things that really bothered me > when I was reading OotP. Harry and the others had no real plan > besides just walzting into the MoM, as though a bunch of kids could > save Sirius from *death eaters*. Salit replied: >> Well, this actually makes sense to me. For one thing, they *are* kids. One should not expect them to make the same level of planning and preparation you'd expect from adults. << Which is why I understand Ron and Harry rushing off, but Hermione? I know she voiced *some* concerns about it, but did she ever stop Harry and ask how they're supposed to save Sirius when they get there? >> For another, there was simply no time - they were dealing with one crisis after the next. Besides, they did not know that there were death eaters waiting. The vision (which remember, Harry took for a true one) showed noone but Sirius and Voldemort were at the DoM. << Its a reasonable assumption that Voldemort would have at least one DE with him, but even if he didn't he's still *Voldemort*. HunterGreen previously: > in this instance they should have tried to find another adult > besides Snape to tell the story to (I'm sure they could have found a > way to contact at least Ron's parents). Salit: >>How? It would have to be a member of the order (Sirius was viewed as an insane murderer by anyone else) and all means of communication except for Umbridge's office were controlled. Not only that, it would mean that Harry would have to reveal to the incredulous adult that not only is Voldemort after Sirius, but that he, Harry, has seen it in his dreams - he'd be lucky to avoid St. Mungo's after that! :-) He should have thought of Snape, true, but in light of their last encounter one would tend to forgive Harry for passing that option over.<< I mean not in the school, but when they left. Instead of going to the MoM, maybe they should have gone to the burrow or GP. They went from not being able to contact anyone *at school* to rushing off to the MoM, without thinking of trying to contact anyone outside of school instead. I can understand him not thinking of Snape or the mirror (I forgot about both when I was reading the book as well), I just think they abandoned their search for an adult too quickly. Again, if it was just Harry, I could understand, he was the one who saw the vision, I don't really blame him for wanting to rush off to the MoM, but it was up to Ron and Hermione who were closer to being clear-headed to put together how bad of an idea that was (bad not just because it could be a fake vision--which it was of course--but bad because if it was real, there'd be nothing they could do about it). If they had encountered Voldemort torturing Sirius, he would have rather easily killed all three of them (well, maybe not Harry, but Ron and Hermione don't have any protections on them). Salit: >> The failure was Dumbledore's (as he readily and rightly admitted it at the end). Once the crisis came, there was no real way for Harry and friends to act differently (except sadly for talking to Snape or remembering the parting christmas gift that Sirius gave Harry). << HunterGreen: Yes it was. Dumbledore (or someone acting on his orders) should have given Harry a way to contact the order in an emergency. Its part of the folly all the adults around Harry have in OotP: treating him like he's nothing more than a fifteen-year-old. Perhaps someone like *Ginny* wouldn't need to be told some way to contact people in an emergency, but they all know how often trouble finds Harry (and in this case there was reason to believe that Voldemort was *planning* on doing something with Harry), but he was just left to fend for himself, as though he would know how to deal with it in an adult way, when the reason they were keeping him in the dark in the first place was because of his age. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 21:21:18 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:21:18 -0000 Subject: Prefects and points In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106075 I, Del, wrote: > Ron made *amazing* choices for someone normal. Arya answered : > I'm not entirely convinced this all conscious to Ron. I think Harry > being his friend *is* Ron's interest and so, that's what prompts him > to be there for Harry. Del replies : I'll be simple. If anyone, *anyone*, even my husband who is my very best friend, asked me to go in a bad big forest to follow spiders, I would tell them to get lost. Ron made a VERY CONSCIOUS choice that day. And on many other days too. Arya wrote : > Ron's choice, I think, is yet to come in > choosing to either stick it out even more so with Harry (the right > choice) or to fall prey some inner jealousy or wish to do his own > thing for himself (the easy one by comparison). Del replies : Harry doesn't own Ron, Ron doesn't owe Harry anything, and I'm sure Harry would *hate* to know that Ron is unhappy with him. He'd be the first one to push Ron to pursue his dreams, no matter how selfish. Arya wrote : > Of all the things in Ron's life, if he survives the war as Harry's > best friend, he would be lucky to just alive. Del replies : So he shouldn't shoot for the stars or plan for his future ? Arya wrote : > He's the exxageration of "ordinary". Del replies : Ordinary people are ordinary because they do ordinary things. They don't fight monsters and psychopaths : they let the professionals do that. Ordinary students turn to the teachers, they don't go breaking the rules to face death yet once again. Those are no ordinary things, hence Ron is not ordinary. Arya wrote : > I think Harry and Hermione would shine on their own. They may be > better with Ron but neither is dependent on him for being who they > are. Del replies : Without Ron, Harry would never have made it past the giant chess set, for example. Arya wrote : > Nope. IMO, I do not think the Trio is equal. Sorry. I think it's > Harry, then Hermione, and then Ron. > > but that doesn't mean one is better than the other as a person. > People are not judged comparitively in the end; it's more like Danish > judging (from 4H), where each individual is judged on their own > unique circumstances and individual acheivements. Del replies : And yet you keep belittling Ron's achievements simply because you think they don't measure up to Harry's achievements. Contradiction. Arya wrote : > I think, sometimes people identify with someone other than Harry (a > foreign concept to me until I came into fandom years ago) and then > try to be an advocate for that character in a bid for them to be > regarded as an unsung hero. Del replies : I never found any great fun in championing the obvious hero. He already has tons of fans, and he's the author's favourite anyway. So ever since I was a very little girl, I found myself attracted to the underdog, and quite often repelled by the so-obvious-hero-who-has-all-the-qualities. The underdog is the one who has the real choice : remain an underdog or reach for the glory. The hero, as you said concerning Harry, often has little choice but to be a hero. Booooring. Unless he starts as an underdog (a real one, not like Harry, who was a Prophesied Hero in disguise). Arya wrote : > As it is, the only one you can hang your hopes on and the one you > should be rooting for as he is the main dude of the books (Remember > Harry? The kid with the scar?) is Harry Potter. The rest of them are > all supporting characters. Harry is the champion of the books; the > hero and the one for whom we are meant to feel empathy for and to > root for. Del replies : Twice in the same day ?! I'm cursed or what ?? I'll give you the same answer I gave Paul : you have no right to tell me who I'm supposed to champion. Harry's the hero of the books, yes, but that's all. There's no rule ever written saying that readers should champion the hero and only the hero. It might be the writer's intention, it might be the most logical and the easiest thing to do, but it's not compulsory. If I want to champion Ron, Snape, Peter, Lucius or LV, *nobody* has the right to tell me that I shouldn't. They can tell me that I'm heading for a major disappointment, but no more than that. Telling me that I should invest my attention only in Harry is like telling me that only the rich and the beautiful people count in real life. I shouldn't bother caring about the ordinary people who don't apparently have the power to change things ? Sorry, I will. Arya wrote : > Ron, in all his ordinaryness, may just be a plot to show how > wonderful a friend *Harry* is by Harry's willingness to go into the > bowels of the earth to slay a Basilisk for this ordinary's friend > sister. Sorry, the plot does not *need* to show the triumph of Ron > to be good fiction; it needs to show the trials (and fate) of Harry. Del replies : You really don't understand what I'm telling you. I'm telling you that the story *already* shows how extraordinary Ron has become, it shows that through his choices. And I am NOT asking for Ron to become the hero of Harry's story. I'm hoping Ron will become the hero of his own life, that he will find his very own, independent, way to glory, not a way that depends on Harry being the hero first. Arya wrote : > But, um, he is. Ron *is* less. Otherwise the books would be about > him. Sure he's no less a person (fictional as he is) but he *IS* > less of a character. Perspective, perspective, perspective!! Del replies : Of course he is less of a character, that was NEVER my problem ! Arya wrote : > we readers need to regain some perspective. Del replies : Perspective ? But *you* are the one who can't detach yourself from Harry ! You are at least as prejudiced in favour of Harry than I am in favour of Ron. All you can see is Harry, Harry, Harry. I can see many other people : Ron, Hermione, Neville, Draco, Lupin, and others, and find them just as fascinating, interesting and for some of them heroic as Harry, if not more. Just because JKR put the light on Harry and Harry happens to play a role nobody else could play in the war (and the war isn't everything) doesn't mean Harry is the only interesting or heroic character, far from it ! Del From BrwNeil at aol.com Tue Jul 13 21:25:43 2004 From: BrwNeil at aol.com (BrwNeil at aol.com) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:25:43 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Where's Strategist!Ron? was Re: Ron as prefect? Message-ID: <194.2abfa8e7.2e25ad57@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106076 In a message dated 7/13/2004 10:38:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, foxmoth at qnet.com writes: Asking why, in five years, Strategist!Ron hasn't happened is like asking why R/H hasn't happened. It hasn't happened because when it does, the story will be over. The story with Ron isn't whether his strategic abilities at chess can save the day in other situations, or whether an R/H relationship would actually work. The story with Ron is whether he'll realize that the only way he can find out whether he has the potential to fulfill his dreams is to go after them. If this is indeed Rowling's plan, I'm glad she only used it with Ron. In each book we have seen the knowledge and abilities of Harry and Hermione improve. It is no secret that Harry is a strong, brave wizard. It is also no secret that Hermione is an intelligent and powerful witch. I doubt that it would ruin the ending if Ron were shown to have a glimmer of this great strategic power you talk of. Actually if he has it, don't you think it would be more believable if a tinge of it showed. It will seem rather unrealistic for his abilities to just over night shine through when we've never seen them before. We have watched Harry's and Hermione's power develope through the years. That would be like us never seeing Harry learn anything, but suddenly he defeats Voldemort. Neil The Nefarious Court Jester of the Royal Family of Cliffies [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu Tue Jul 13 21:27:13 2004 From: rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu (susanbones2003) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:27:13 -0000 Subject: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106077 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "huntergreen_3" Agreed. I doubt Harry had much of a chance learning Occulmency. However, although his negative feelings toward Snape made it harder for him to empty himself of emotion, it did give him at least one incentive to attempt to learn it, that being that he was mildly afraid of Snape. (however, that wasn't enough to make him practice, just enough to make him feel guilty about not pracising). Isn't it ironic that just when Harry is ramping up his emotions (speaking in ALL CAPS much of the time) he is asked to learn a discipline that requires him to empty himself of all emotion? Quite a task for an angry 15 year old! Is it any wonder he failed abysmally? Jennifer From greatelderone at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 21:36:24 2004 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:36:24 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106078 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" > Del replies : > I *never* said that Ron had a poor me syndrome. In fact, Ron almost > never complains, and when he does he never draws comparisons, he only > says that he hates being poor. GEO: And also that everything he gets is crap or hand-me-downs from his dress robes to the baby owl that Sirius gave him. > Yeah yeah, I know, poor poor Harry, who has it so bad than everyone > else should fight among themselves for the privilege of being able to > say that they are the one who has it best. > > Sorry, it just doesn't work like that for me. Just because Harry has > it bad doesn't mean nobody else can have it bad too and suffer because > of it. Are you going to forbid Neville from suffering from seeing his > parents insane, just because he doesn't have it as bad as Harry too ? GEO: Dean, Neville and Ron at least have some form of a decent home life. Harry is stuck with the Dursleys during the summer and during the school year he's almost always have to confront an incarnation of Voldemort or one of his followers. Fact of the matter is, Harry suffers more than those three. > A wonderful support system who made him feel like he would never be > anyone unless he lived up to his parents' expectations and older > brothers' achievements. GEO: Ron's a teenager. They aren't exactly known for being secure and stable. > A real family is not just or always a support system, it can be a > burden too. GEO: Don't see how. The first five seem to be doing pretty well careerwise. > Del replies : > I don't care anymore what JKR has to say about Ron, not since she > proved that she's prejudiced against him (see : Ron the Prefect ? > thread). GEO: She created Ron. You didn't. As the character's creator, I'd think she knows where she's taking the character. However if you think you know better why don't you write your own Adventures of Ron Weasley. I'm sure it'll sell better than hers. > Del replies : > You haven't read my defence of Percy, have you ? > And Arthur has a strange way of showing that he still loves his son, > acting just like the teenager Percy still is and ignoring his son. > Arthur turned his back on his son just as much as Percy turned his > back on his family. GEO: Dude Percy is the git here. He was being petty and naive and when his parents put forth the hand of reconciliation, he slapped it away. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 21:38:15 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:38:15 -0000 Subject: Non-British views on purebloods (Was: My take on the Half-blood Prince) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106079 "ericoppen" wrote: One thing that I haven't seen (pardon me if this has come up; my e- mail is slightly on-the-fritz, so I'm a bit behind on this group) is the possibility that the Half-Blood Prince might be Viktor Krum. Krum's last name itself provides a clue---it is the name of the Khan whose Turkic people founded the Bulgarian nation. They were absorbed by their Slavic-speaking subjects, but retained the name and continued to identify in many ways with the original, non-Slavic Bulgars. AFAIK modern Bulgarian names mostly sound pretty Slavic, and I don't think I've ever heard of a modern Bulgarian named "Krum" (however, I am not an expert on this, nor do I play one on TV, so I'm open to correction) and we know that Herself doesn't pick names at random. Hence, calling a Bulgarian character by the name of a half-legendary prince, founder of his nation, that is not used in contemporary Bulgaria ought to be a big fat Clue. We also know nothing about Viktor Krum's ancestry---it would be a hoot if he _was_ descended from Bulgarian royalty somehow, wouldn't it? For that matter, we don't know that non-British wizards worry too much about blood purity---for all we know, they might take the position that "if you can cast spells/do magic, you're a wizard; if not, you're a (you should pardon the expression) _Muggle!_" Carol responds: While I find your remarks on Bulgarian royalty intriguing and don't want to discount the possibility that the HBP might be Viktor Krum (despite his having no known connection to CoS), I want to mention that the non-British wizards we've seen are all DEs who do care about the pureblood ideology. The Lestrange brothers, who attended Hogwarts and were part of a Slytherin (pro-pureblood?) gang, probably can't be considered non-British, but their name suggests a recent French origin. (As you say, JKR is generally careful about names and theirs does not sound British.) They're definitely purebloods since Bellatrix (Rodolphus Lestrange's wife) is still on the Black Family tapestry. The progression from Slytherin to Voldemort supporter, especially coupled with a marriage to Bellatrix Black by one of them and the torturing of the Longbottoms by both of them, strongly suggests a fanatical belief in the superiority of purebloods over Muggleborns or half-bloods that *could* reflect the views of the French wizarding "aristocracy" as well as those of the Slytherin faction of British purebloods. The name of Antonin Dolohov, a particularly vicious Death Eater, sounds Slavic or Russian--possibly he attended Durmstrang in his youth. (My apologies to people who have discussed this earlier; my point is that he appears to be a non-British advocate of Voldemort's pureblood ideology.) Igor Karkaroff, the runaway headmaster of Durmstrang, is almost certainly Slavic, though he seems to be Hogwarts educated. The important point, though, is that besides teaching the Dark Arts to his students, he didn't admit Muggleborns to Durmstrang. (I'm not sure where the quote is--it has to be in GOF somewhere. Maybe Geoff knows where it is.) How Karkaroff and other Durmstrang teachers (he's the only one we've seen) feel about half-bloods (as opposed to Muggleborns) is impossible to determine with any degree of certainty, but it seems logical that they would oppose "mixed marriages" and view their offspring as inferior to pureblood children. Karkaroff's coddling of Viktor Krum doen't prove that Viktor isn't a half-blood, but it *suggests* that, aside from being a highly gifted Quidditch player and the Durmstrang school champion, he's probably a pureblood. On a side note, Viktor has come away amazingly untainted by this "pampered prince" treatment, but I'm still worried about him. He Crucio'd Cedric after being Imperio'd by Crouch!Moody and he's been taught the Dark Arts, apparently including the Unforgiveable Curses, at Durmstrang. I hope he's not being set up for a fall--and I don't mean from a broom. BTW, if your e-mail is down, you can always access the posts on site. Carol, who has skipped four whole days of posts in a desperate effort to catch up at last From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 13 21:46:52 2004 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:46:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's special power In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040713214652.44379.qmail@web25106.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106080 Hans in response to Jen Reese's post: I do take issue with one point Jen makes: "Many times in interviews, JKR or others talk about how Harry is every-boy, and that is why he's so appealing. He's smart but not brilliant, makes many mistakes, and seems special only in his ability to fly and aptitude for DADA. ***In spite of this,*** I tend toward the first explanation, that Harry was indeed born with an innate power to vanquish the Dark Lord, whether he chooses to manifest it or not." "IN SPITE OF THIS"? But Jen, the whole point of the books is that everyone, yes EVERYONE has the "innate power to vanquish the dark lord". Harry is our example, our inspiration, the one we need to follow. All of us have Voldemort within us. And all of us have the power to vanquish him. Jen's reaction: I don't understand your point here, even though I read your article in the files section. If you believe Harry was born special, and was the one and only one who could defeat Voldemort from birth, then why do you say here anyone could defeat Voldemort? Geoff Bannister added: There is surely a distinct opposition of ideas here. Harry cannot have a special power and be Everyman at the same time. Hans' explanation of how Harry is both everyman and have a special power at the same time: If I understand you correctly, you're asking, "If you believe Harry was born special, and was the one and only one who could defeat Voldemort from birth, then why do you say here anyone could defeat Voldemort?" The Harry Potter septology is introducing an extremely radical concept into the world. If Humanity actually accepted this concept and started to put it into practice, it would change the very fabric of society. All the commonly held ideas and beliefs of the masses and the mass religions are being turned upside down by Harry Potter. This concept is that every human being is on a journey towards the causeless cause, the original creative spirit, God, call it what you like, and that the journey ends up with a complete (re-)union of man and It/Him. Furthermore this journey has to be taken by each human being by using his own inner resources. I think some people in the publishing and film industry have perceived this. For example Arthur A. Levine, the Scholastic editorial director who paid $105,000 for U.S. rights to the still obscure first book in 1997, thinks the magic of the books is "the idea that a great power lives in each of us." Alfonso Cuaron has also grasped this concept to some degree and this shows in his new film. He says he understands that all our weaknesses and fears are within ourselves, but that the power to overcome them is also within ourselves. However these statements dont go far enough. The inspiration behind Harry Potter asserts that the power for complete liberation from all the limitations of our time-spatial universe is within us. How radical can you get? This means that if we expect our salvation from authorities outside of ourselves we'll never get anywhere. If we expect the Buddha or Mohamed or Jesus to save us we'll be waiting a long time. The great Masters of the past are people who have travelled further on the road than we have, and their job is to tell us what it's like, and how to get there, but we still have to take every step ourselves. The essential principle on our spiritual journey is that we accept no authority but our own spiritual power, not even the Bible, the Tao Teh Ching the Koran or anything else. The sacred scriptures as well as the great legends and fairy tales are simply road maps made by more advanced travellers to show us how and where to go. And so is Harry Potter. The septology clearly demonstrates this principle in Harrys disregard to rules. Usually Harry follows his inner voice and does what he thinks is right, even when this means disregarding the rules. And at the end of every part of the series he is triumphant against Voldemort, his own inner evil, because he obeys the voice of his inner goodness, even when it goes against all the rules and the advice of the people around him. This explains why certain fundamentalist churches reject Harry Potter. They dont want people to start thinking for themselves and using their own potential spiritual resources. Their point of view is that the Bible is literally Gods word and should be obeyed to the letter. I want to thank Geoff Bannister for pointing out that it was never the Creators intention to populate the universe with robots. I believe that when the Old Testament says God created man in His own image, it is not referring to the physical body but the creative power which is hidden in the heart, in the Room of Love. And so here is something that will probably upset a lot of people: the Harry Potter septology is saying it is irrelevant to us on our spiritual journey whether somebody like Jesus was born 2000 years ago. Or to put it a different way, in the words of Angelus Silesius: "Though Christ a thousand times in Bethlehem be born, but not in thee, thou shalt be yet forlorn." That is the kernel of the message in the septology! Christ, the Buddha, Christian Rosycross, or Harry Potter must be born IN OUR HEART! Every human being has the POTENTIAL to go the road to liberation. How? Because everyone has a spark of the original creative spirit in the heart. This spark is like a seed in that it contains the entire plan of human development as always intended by the original Creative Spirit. This spark could be called, in mystical terms, Gods only begotten son. We could call it the Inner Christ, the inner Tao, the inner Harry Potter. This power has the ability to vanquish the Dark Lord within us. Every one of us has Harry Potter in his heart, but in many people he is unborn, in some people he is a small helpless baby, and in some people he is a mature person, able to take the lead. In my essay Harry Potter Christian Rosycross in Jeans and in posts to this group I have described how Harry can be brought to birth. Once he is born and has reached a certain maturity it is essential that we put the government upon his shoulder. A person in whose heart Jesus Christ or Harry Potter lives is very much aware of this, and it is then a question of completely surrendering the old, earthly self to the new self, the Self which has broken out of the eternal seed in the heart. When the new self has reached maturity it can defeat the dark lord within us. That is what Alchemy is all about. That is what all the worlds great scriptures are about. Is it not logical then that if a spark of the Creator, Who Himself is above all laws and limitations, grows to maturity, he also will be liberated from all the laws and limitations of our time-spatial universe? Does this not mean that each one of us has the potential to become a god in the creators image? Does the New Testament not say The Kingdom of Heaven is inside you, and You shall do greater things than these? However it is clear from all the worlds sacred scriptures, the great legends and the fairy tales, that before the Inner Christ or the inner Harry Potter can rise beyond the limitations of our time-spatial universe he has to defeat once and for all the great, original adversary. When he has done that he will be our wonderful counsellor, our mighty god, our everlasting father, our Prince of Peace. So to summarise this, may I put it this way: Harry Potter is everyman in the sense that he is POTENTIALLY present in the heart every human being, and he is the one and only one able to defeat the Dark Lord within. Hans in Holland ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 21:46:33 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:46:33 -0000 Subject: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106081 Pippin wrote: > > It doesn't really matter that the vision of Sirius was false--even > > if Sirius had truly been held captive, Harry shouldn't have gone > > after him. HunterGreen answered : > That's true. And that's one of the things that really bothered me > when I was reading OotP. Harry and the others had no real plan > besides just walzting into the MoM, as though a bunch of kids could > save Sirius from *death eaters*. That chapter is the only time I've > really been pulled out of the book, and felt like I was reading a > children's story....at least in the past there was some reason why it > was Harry in the end going after something that an adult should be > doing, in this instance they should have tried to find another adult > besides Snape to tell the story to (I'm sure they could have found a > way to contact at least Ron's parents). The whole thing was just > ridiculous, I can understand Harry and Ron rushing off without > thinking about it, but Hermione? And then Luna, Neville and Ginny? > (esepecially since they barely knew what was going on). Del replies : I couldn't agree more. I was completely appalled at how Harry first believed in such an absurdity as Sirius being tortured by LV in the DoM (come ON !!!), and then tried to force his friends to believe in it too by *shouting* at them (that's not the Harry I know). I was even more disappointed at Hermione for not refusing point-blank to go there, and not only because I was SOOOOO hoping that she would *finally* tell Harry to get lost, but because it's just not Hermione. Both Harry *and* Hermione acted out-of-character on that one. It was very hard for me to read the story from that point on, because I had been completely pulled out of the book. Everything stank of absurdity, and it was really a drag to read about how Harry was yelling at everyone and being a horrible little dictator trying to intimidate everyone into obeying him. So that when they finally got in the Prophecy room and there was no Sirius, I was so angry at that new Harry that I didn't even take any pleasure in thinking "I told you so!". I just wanted to slap him around the face, hard. And when the DEs arrived, I almost cried with frustration and rage. I was also afraid for all the kids, *except* Harry. I was never a real fan of Harry, but this was so horribly out of character that it made reading about it painful. Even after the bad temper Harry had been in all year, even considering what he'd seen in his dream, the whole scene was simply out-of-character for me. Del From srobles at caribe.net Tue Jul 13 21:50:12 2004 From: srobles at caribe.net (anasazi_pr) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:50:12 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (i... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106082 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, BrwNeil at a... wrote: > In a message dated 7/13/2004 9:37:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > delwynmarch at y... writes: > > Anasazi wrote : > > He may not be the brightest boy when it comes to school (neither is > > Harry - the position belongs solely to Draco), > On want canon is this based? We've only ever seen Draco in Hagrid's class > and Snape's and I can't remember him being singled out as a gret student. > > > Neil > The Nefarious Court Jester of the Royal Family of Cliffies It is more implied than anything else, but I got the idea from what his father said to him when they visited Nocturne Alley in CoS. Chamber of Secrets - Page 52 - At Flourish and Blotts (US Edition): ------------- "Though if his grades don't pick up," said Mr. Malfoy, more coldly still, "that maybe indeed all he is fit for --" "It's not my fault," retorted Draco. "The teachers all have favorites. That Hermione Granger --" "I would have thought you'd be ashamed that a girl of no wizard family beat you in every exam," snapped Mr. Malfoy. ------------- The problems seems to be that Hermione beat him, not that anybody else did. Plus, Draco is ambitious to say the least, and ambitious people tend to work hard to achieve what they want... well, they either work or they bribe, and since I don't believe any of the Hogwart's teachers are open to bribery (including Snape), I believe that Draco works hard in his studies (albeit for the wrong reasons). Anasazi From BrwNeil at aol.com Tue Jul 13 22:03:22 2004 From: BrwNeil at aol.com (BrwNeil at aol.com) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:03:22 EDT Subject: If you were Hermione-Ships Message-ID: <1e5.25094162.2e25b62a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106083 R/Hr shippers are 100% sure that these two love birds will end up together by the end of book seven and can tpoint to hundreds of places where this is foretold in canon. H/Hr shippers are just as sure that their chosen couple will find happiness together. Rowling helps us all 'not' by saying it is perfectly clear. I guess I'm the stupid one because I haven't read anything that would cause be to make a sizeable wager on either couple. I do have a challenge for all shippers. Pretend you are Hermione and you have been asked by both Harry and Ron to be their girlfriend. Compose two lists, one for each boy. List both the positive and negative attributes of both and reasons why or why not you should go out with either. Base attributes and reasons on the first five years of canon; what we know as fact. Neil The Nefarious Court Jester of the Royal Family of Cliffies [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 22:03:05 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:03:05 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle in CoS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106084 Sonya asked: What did Mr. Malfoy hope to gain from passing on the Diary? If he was hoping to bring Tom back so he could become LV again (and the killings) would that make Mr. Malfoy a 'good' DE? Brigitte wrote: I am not sure that Malfoy had any idea that the book mighy bring back LV/TR at all. He knows that the last time the chamber was opened the school was almost closed. I think that LM just wanted to get DD out of the school. LM might then hope to get someone else appointed as headmaster (maybe even himself) that would carry on the Slytherin persuasion of not teaching those with Muggle blood. SiriuslySnapeySusan wrote: I think Brigitte is *exactly* right. I think Lucius simply wanted to wreak havoc on Hogwarts--well, on the MUGGLE-borns at Hogwarts-- and get DD in trouble. If Voldy *knew* what Lucius had been up to, don't you think he would have held Lucius up in the graveyard at an example of a DEVOTED FOLLOWER? Yet, he didn't. In fact, he chastised Lucius a bit. And if Malfoy had been doing it FOR Voldy, I think Lucius would have protested, "But, look what I tried to do for you, Master." The fact that Malfoy DIDN'T protest makes me think he did this purely on his own, for his own play for power. Carol responds: But he knew that it was Tom Riddle's diary and knew that Tom Riddle was the future Lord Voldemort. I won't go into how he got hold of Voldemort's diary, but he may have written in it himself and communicated with Diary!Tom, with the two of them creating a kind of conspiracy. I don't think Lucius just thought--well, Voldemort isn't coming back, so I'll just toss his old diary into the works and see what happens. Whether he actually thought it would restore his "master" in some form, I don't know, but I don't think it was a random inspiration, either. As for why Lucius didn't reveal what he'd done--first, he failed to bring Voldemort back or close the school or get DD fired. All he did was disgrace himself and (coincidentally) lose his house-elf. Not a memory Lucius wants to call attention to. Second, if he'd succeeded and Tom Riddle had returned, we'd have two Voldemorts, one with a snake's face and one who looked like a sixteen-year-old. Ack! Would Lucius tell the resurrected Voldemort that he had a youthful clone? Admittedly, Vapormort and Tom II might somehow have merged, as JKR seems to imply with her reference to a stronger Voldemort on her site, but Lucius wouldn't know that. I think silence is his best if not only strategy here. (It's also possible that LV knows what Malfoy tried and failed to do but refrains from embarrassing Malfoy by mentioning it, but I got the impression, as you did, that he doesn't know about it. And yet Diary!Tom says, "Voldemort is my past, present, and future." Would he have gone seeking his own future self? And what would have happened then?) Carol, confused as usual and trying to see all possibilities From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Tue Jul 13 22:09:16 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:09:16 -0000 Subject: TBAY: PS I LOVE ME LETS KISS (very long unifying theory) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106085 Boyd stood for a moment on the dock, smelling the clean breeze and glancing out at the Bay. Nary a vessel was in sight today, and no surprise there. Boyd had seen fewer and fewer vessels traverse its glassy surface this year. So many stayed on the shore these days, as if afraid of what secrets lay submerged in the depths. "Perhaps it is time." With a telling last look back over his shoulder, he quickly grabbed one corner of the tarp and . "Not so fast, Boyd." A small but strong hand grabbed at his, causing his heart to jump. "You'll have to get a signed permission slip from me before you can take this out on the Theory Bay." Spinning around, Boyd saw that which he feared most. "W-w-what?" he stammered. "What are you doing here, M-M-Minerva? Please, I just want to take my boat out. I didn't know there were r-r-rules about TBay!" As she turned her steely gaze on his new craft, which he had been so proud of a moment before, he began to wonder whether it was even seaworthy. "That's Professor to you, Boyd. What makes you think the rest of the group wants your ungainly contraption blocking their view?" Feeling lightheaded now, Boyd almost agreed. "No, wait, Professor, don't you think my craft is beautiful? I've made it both seaworthy and majestic, with great windows looking both fore and aft. It even has canon!" McGonagall flared her nostrils, pointed her wand at his nose, and spoke two simple words that made Boyd's knees go weak. "Prove it." Boyd took a deep breath and began discussing how he built his vessel. ----TBAY Continues After References Below---- OK. There are a number of puzzles left for Rowling to solve in the final two books, and frankly, it's hard to see how all of the pieces can fit together. For example, what does the prophecy mean? What about the gleam, "essence divided," life-debt, Tom Riddle becoming Lord Voldemort, Gryffindor and Slytherin, what makes Harry special, and how the whole thing will end. Theories abound on each of these, but few attempt to explain them all. With her assertion that she nearly gave it away in CoS, JKR started me thinking down a path that led to a solution to all of these questions that feels as though it just might fit. So let's start with CoS itself. In CoS, JKR spends a great deal of time talking about one backstory that seems to have no compelling reason to exist: the Four Founders of Hogwarts. JKR apparently had something like Salazar's Chamber figured from the beginning (see Canon 1, below). Hardly indicative of a throwaway bit of backdrop. Further, JKR could simply have had LV make the CoS or unleash a basilisk on the school. No Slytherin-built CoS was required by the basic plot of that book. So the presence of Slytherin in the books must have another purpose. The backstory is also too elaborate to be mere window dressing. As introduced by Professor Binns (Canon 2), it includes an initial friendship destroyed by Salazar's pure-bloodism, which resonates ominously with the general themes of racism and judging a book by its cover that crop up repeatedly throughout the series. Add that in Binns' four-page speech JKR makes a glaring omission in not mentioning what happened to Slytherin after he left Hogwarts. If there were nothing more, couldn't Binns have said simply that Salazar was killed, imprisoned, or left to found another school? We also know a bit more about Slytherin through the Sorting Hat, which paints the picture of a cunning, power-hungry wizard who *literally* fought and dueled with his erstwhile friends for control of the school. (Canon 3) Where the most obvious options for Slytherin were to accept the difference of opinions and try to get on with life, or to try to change Hogwarts during his lifetime, Salazar chose a bizarre alternative: creating the CoS for his eventual heir to find centuries hence. But how sweet could this revenge be if Salazar would never live to see it? This is a patience that goes well beyond normal human endurance. And wouldn't his revenge be as short-lived as his heir is human? After all, there will always be more wizards born to Muggles, but the all-too-human Heir will eventually die, right? This indicates that centuries ago, Salazar already knew that his Heir could somehow achieve immortality-or that he would himself. Clearly the events of 1,000 years ago are not dead. Why else would Godric Gryffindor's stuff keep popping up? Or the Chamber and Basilisk? So it seems obvious that there's more to the story. But how does that impact Harry? Read on . There is one other significant fact that we know about Salazar Slytherin: Tom Riddle is his "Heir." But what does that mean, exactly? Was Tom *born* the Heir of Slytherin, or did he *become* the Heir of Slytherin? According to Voldemort, his mother was a witch and the descendant of Salazar Slytherin. Dumbledore and JKR's website confirm that Riddle is the last descendant of Slytherin. Yet we have heard of no other "Heirs of Slytherin" who have released the basilisk, and no subsequent parselmouths aside from Harry. And if Tom Riddle is truly the descendent of Salazar Slytherin, then he would have less than 1% of Slytherin's blood in his veins (Calculation 1). So it seems that it takes more than just Slytherin's blood to become his Heir. But what? But before we answer that question, let's pose another. Why, despite the fact that they never met (hem hem) and share little blood in common do Salazar and Tom share the following striking similarities: Parselmouth, hatred of Muggle-born wizards, strong wizarding abilities, and a desire to impose their wills upon others using any means necessary (e.g. the basilisk)? Hmmm. And one last question: given her focus on choices, would JKR have created a Tom Riddle who was fated by blood to become the Dark Lord? One explanation answers all three questions. Tom *chose* to become the Heir of Slytherin through his actions: he sought the Chamber and attempted to finish what Salazar started nearly 1000 years earlier (Canon 4). And by so choosing, he became more like Salazar for a very simple reason; just as Harry received some aspects of Voldemort (e.g. Parselmouth) at Godric's Hollow, Tom Riddle received some of Slytherin's essence in the Chamber of Secrets. In short, Tom Riddle is the Heir of Slytherin simply because he was literally granted the powers of Slytherin-not through the vagaries of bloodlines; but directly from some essence of Slytherin in the Chamber. At this point, recognizing that he has changed, Tom begins to call himself Lord Voldemort. What is this essence of Salazar? The clues: as far as we know, Salazar disappeared; he left for his Heir a Chamber that would win his fight centuries hence; and this Heir would somehow win the victory forever, perhaps through achieving immortality. We've also seen the diary-memory of Tom Riddle nearly become real many years later, and we've seen Lord Voldemort's unending quest for eternal life. Put it all together the essence of Salazar is a memory much like Tom Riddle's diary, but this memory is of a powerful adult wizard at the height of his powers. So Slytherin created a memory in some vessel (perhaps a diary, perhaps not), which waited in the Chamber for an Heir to come, and now has merged with that Heir. Salazar now shares the body of Tom Riddle, one snake (the symbol of Slytherin) "in essence divided" (inhabited by two beings). So Salazar now inhabits Tom Riddle a.k.a. Lord Voldemort. What does that mean for Harry? According to the prophecy (Canon 5), "And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives." If Lord Voldemort is actually both Tom Riddle and Salazar Slytherin together in one body, then we can read the prophecy as, "And either (Tom or Salazar) must die at the hand of the other (Salazar or Tom) for neither (Tom nor Salazar) can live while the other (Salazar or Tom) survives." Essentially, Trelawney prophesied that for some reason, Tom and Salazar would not be able to inhabit the same body and both fully live. Why? The failed AK. It was meant to destroy one spirit, but rebounded on them both, cursing both to live a terrible half-existence. So one of them will have to destroy the other to live fully again. Thanks to that AK, there's just one life per body, Lord Voldemort! But Dumbledore says the prophecy refers to Harry as the one who can destroy Voldemort, and indeed Harry must figure in somehow to be able to take the prophecy in the MoM. So obviously Harry's role is as "the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord." Apparently, Harry is the one who can make one of the two spirits within Lord Voldemort decide to destroy the other. But why Harry? In the MoM battle scene, Harry repels possession by Lord Voldemort through simple emotion. Emotion too strong for the spirits within Lord Voldemort to bear, because they no longer feel such strong emotions; they are merely living half-lives, and can't bear to remember how a full life feels, especially a full life as emotionally strong as Harry. Remember, this is the young wizard who can already conjure an extremely powerful Patronus, thanks to his extremely strong happy memories. Dumbledore also cites Harry's heart as his strength, so we can assume the strongest of Harry's emotions to be love. So how will Harry make one of the two spirits destroy the other? He'll force them to feel his unbearably strong emotions, particularly love, thereby causing one spirit to destroy the other rather than go on living a half-life that seems so pale in comparison to Harry's. Harry's blood in Voldemort's veins is the key; Dumbledore's gleam meant that it opened a portal into the Dark Lord for Harry's emotions. Which spirit will destroy the other? Well, it seems that if Slytherin could destroy Tom and live, he would have already done it. So Tom must destroy Slytherin. How? Remember that Slytherin was a memory much like Tom in the diary, and that Harry destroyed diary!Tom by destroying the diary. So whatever is the source of the memory of Slytherin, Tom will destroy that. That's what CoS almost gave away. So why hasn't Tom done this before? At first, he didn't want to; he was realizing his dreams of domination and enjoying a full life before the failed AK. During the lost years after the AK, Slytherin was a valued ally, for it was he who knew how to regain some physical form. And finally, Tom has lacked access to the source of Slytherin's memory since then. But that leaves the powerful evil wizard Tom Riddle, who was ESE before ever he found the Chamber. Won't he still want to kill Harry and loads of others? Here I can only conjecture (as if all the rest were facts! ). When Slytherin's spirit is destroyed and Lord Voldemort becomes simply ESE!Tom again, Peter will be released from his bondage to the Dark Lord. Then Peter will show his true loyalties always lay with James and Lilly, and he will kill Tom, also repaying the life-debt he owes Harry. The end. Is there any other evidence for any of this? A few random ones . * If you feel skeptical about multiple spirits in one body, remember that it has happened enough times to be a full-fledged theme: Lord Voldemort and Quirrell, Diary!Tom and Ginny, Lord Voldemort and the snake that attacks Mr. Weasley, Lord Voldemort and Harry (the nightmares), Lord Voldemort and Harry (the MoM scene). * Lazarus = Salazar? Jesus brought back Lazarus from the dead after 4 days, Tom brought back Salazar from the dead after 1,000 years? * Tom Riddle is not the same as Lord Voldemort according to Dobby. (Canon 6) * Rather than remain at Hogwarts between terms, Tom chose to stop allowing the basilisk to terrorize the school. (Canon 7) Why? He needed to stay at Hogwarts to allow the spirit of Salazar to completely enter him , and perhaps he had to stay to protect or remove the vessel (diary or otherwise) from which Salazar's spirit emanated. * Tom said that the one who had the power to release the basilisk "was not imprisoned." (Canon 8) True, for Tom had released Salazar from the vessel that had held his memory. * "There are things worse than death." Such as living an eternity in a half-life. REFERENCES: Canon 1. JKR in Scholastic interview #2: "I always knew the chamber was there. I don't know what first gave me the idea; I just liked the thought that Slytherin had left something of himself behind." Canon 2. Binns on the Founders: "You all know, of course, that Hogwarts was founded over a thousand years ago-the precise date is uncertain-by the four greatest witches and wizards of the age." "They built this castle together, far from prying Muggle eyes, for it was an age when magic was feared by common people, and witches and wizards suffered much persecution." "For a few years, the founders worked in harmony together, seeking out youngsters who showed signs of magic and bringing them to the castle to be educated. But then disagreements sprang up between them. A rift began to grow between Slytherin and the others. Slytherin wished to be more /selective/ about the students admitted to Hogwarts. He believed that magical learning should be kept within all-magic families. He disliked taking students of Muggle parentage, believing them to be untrustworthy. After a while, there was a serious argument on the subject between Slytherin and Gryffindor, and Slytherin left the school." (CoS, Ch. 9) Canon 3. The Sorting Hat on Slytherin: "Or perhaps in Slytherin You'll make your real friends, Those cunning folks use any means To achieve their ends." "Power-hungry Slytherin Loved those of great ambition." "And for a while it seemed the school must meet an early end, what with dueling and with fighting and the clash of friend on friend. And at last there came a morning when old Slytherin departed and though the fighting then died out he left us quite downhearted." (Sorting Hat Songs) Calculation 1. Being ultra-conservative, assume 100 years per generation (that means that Riddle's ancestors bore children on average when they were 100). In just under 1,000 years, you'll have about 10 generations. Assuming nothing incestuous, there will be 50% dilution of the blood/genes in each generation from the non-Slytherin parent. Therefore, Tom will have less than 50%^10 = <<1%. Canon 4. Diary!Tom: "I decided to leave behind a diary, preserving my sixteen-year-old self in its pages, so that one day, with luck, I would be able to lead another in my footsteps, and finish Salazar Slytherin's noble work." (CoS, Ch. 17) Canon 5. The prophecy according to Dumbledore: "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches. Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies. And the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not. And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives. The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies." (OoP Ch. 37) Canon 6. Dobby on Diary!Tom being separate from Lord Voldemort: "Hang on-this hasn't got anything to do with Vol-sorry-with You-Know-Who, has it?" "Not-not /He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named/, sir-" But Dobby's eyes were wide and he seemed to be trying to give Harry a hint. Harry, however, was completely lost. "He hasn't got a brother, has he?" Dobby shook his head, his eyes wider than ever. (CoS, Ch. 2) Canon 7. Riddle on Why He Turned in Hagrid: "I'd much rather stay at Hogwarts than go back to that-to that-" Then Headmaster Dippet: "The thing is, Tom, special arrangements might have been made for you, but in the current circumstances .My dear boy, you must see how foolish it would be of me to allow you to remain at the castle when term ends. Particularly in light of the recent tragedy the death of that poor little girl .You will be safer by far at your orphanage. As a matter of fact, the Ministry of Magic is even now talking about closing the school. We are no nearer locating the-er-source of all this unpleasantness ." Riddle's eyes had widened. "Sir-if the person was caught-if it all stopped-" (CoS, Ch. 13) Canon 8. Tom on the basilisk: "The monster lived on, and the one who had the power to release it was not imprisoned." (CoS, Ch. 13) ----TBAY Continues---- Now feeling much more confident, Boyd looked directly into McGonagall's eyes and said, "Not watertight, but she might float, mightn't she?" "If you take this leaky bucket out on the Bay, you will drown in yellow flags so deep that you'll never see the shore again," McGonagall hissed. "You will *never* get a signed pass from me." Narrowing his eyes, Boyd sighed, imagined Minerva with Tonks' purple spiked hair, Trelawney's egregious jewelry and two of Moody's electric blue eyeballs. And he laughed, "Riddikulus!" All that the boggart left behind was a spinning blue eyeball. "Looks like I've got my pass," Boyd chuckled. "Time to set sail." As he finished pulling off the tarp, the name came into view. P.S. I. L.O.V.E. M.E. L.E.T.S. K.I.S.S. (Parasitic Salazar Is a Layer Of Voldemort, Evildoing Most Egregiously. Love Ends Tom's Spell. Kedavra Is Still Smarting.) --boyd From cruthw at earthlink.net Tue Jul 13 19:55:33 2004 From: cruthw at earthlink.net (caspenzoe) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:55:33 -0000 Subject: My take on the HBP / Wizarding Royalty In-Reply-To: <20040713001150.82144.qmail@web25110.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106086 Lee wrote: > Then there is a book as well to suggest that there once was a > Monarchy structure or something close to it. Take the book > Sirius uses to kill the spider looking creature on page 108. > The book is titled "Natures Nobility: A Wizarding Genealogy" Thanks for that Lee! I, and several others here, have been searching for any and all clues to whether there is anything in the WW that parallels the concept of "royalty" in our muggle world. Score another evidence point in the positive column - the other evidences being the titles of some of the WW's ghosts, and Gryffindor's sword. Casey From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Tue Jul 13 20:03:07 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:03:07 -0000 Subject: Pensieve (was Re: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: <20040713144203.75530.qmail@web53809.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106087 Aggie: > <<in an objective light. Somehow, don't ask how we are talking magic > here, it manages to detach the emotional aspect of the memory and > just shows the facts, like a video recording. <<< Nocturnus: > That in the assumption that objective thinking do exist. I had the >feeling that JK ROWLING has a major flaw in her epistemic point of >view. There is no possibility of an objective, or neutral, >knowledge. An aseptic approach to the world is virtually impossible >for human beings. (I'm following, Berger & Luckmann, Maturana & >Varela) Aggie: Thanks for de-lurking! I realise that human interpretaion on a scene is always going to be subjective I was saying that this is the role of the pensieve. That it shows you the memory as if the scene had been videoed, no emotional perspective at all. I do not know how it does it but that's my view on the pensieve, otherwise it wouldn't be of much use!! I hope I interpreted what you were trying to say correctly!! From Amber_Falls at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 20:21:25 2004 From: Amber_Falls at yahoo.com (Amber_ Falls) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:21:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040713202125.28573.qmail@web90004.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106088 --- dzeytoun wrote: > I think the disaster of Occlumency provides plentiful evidence > that Snape's teaching methods have resulted in a very unfortunate > and dangerous situation. Snape's methods and attitude set > the stage for the train-wreck that Harry's action put in motion. > Not only did the failure of Occlumency result in the disaster at > the MoM, it now leaves us in a situation where arguably the two > most important members of Dumbledore's coalition despise one > another with something that, on Harry's side at least, approaches > glacial hatred. Amber: I couldn't agree with you more on this. I think Dumbledore was faced with the dilemma of teaching Harry Occlumency himself or Snape. He chose the latter. If it was a teacher that Harry had some trust in, things would have gone a bit different. Amber From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 22:35:09 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:35:09 -0000 Subject: Ron (was Hermione's Reaction to... ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106089 I, Del, wrote : > I don't care anymore what JKR has to say about Ron, not since she > proved that she's prejudiced against him (see : Ron the Prefect > thread). Arya answered : > See, I now have to ask--what are you hoping for if you sound to me > like you're admiting that JKR's Ron is likely not *your* Ron? Do you > forsake the rest of the books now and vow your eyes only to fanfic? > JKR's Ron is the ONLY Ron there is. Del replies : And that's the only one I read. Must have been at least 2 or 3 years since I read my only half-dozen of HP fanfics (it was at the time when PoU was still being written, that should tell the older fans something :-). But I see where our problem is, on that particular issue. You think that JKR knows better than anyone else the Ron who is described in the books, because she wrote him. I say that's not necessarily true, for several reasons. 1. JKR knows many things about Ron. She probably knows more about his background than she wrote in the books. Which means that the Ron as written in the books might not be exactly the Ron she is writing about. A good example of that is Dean Thomas. For us, if we read from the books only, Dean is a Muggle-born wizard. Except that in JKR's head, he's a halfblood. So maybe JKR has good reasons to dismiss Ron so easily, because she knows more about his personality than I do. But because what she put in the books is not enough to convince me that I shouldn't waste my time with Ron, because basically she didn't give me enough evidence to make me see Ron her way, I differ with her. And it so happens that *I* am the one who is more in accordance with the books *to date*, not JKR ! I am basing my opinion of Ron only on the published books, she is basing her opinion on the whole series. Our Rons ae bound to be different, but mine is the one who sticks to the canon so far. 2. Characters have their own peculiar way of taking on life independently from their author's intention. JKR herself explains that many characters changed between the moment she created them and the moment she wrote the story. And other authors have explained that they were surprised at how some characters seemed to be different in the end from what they were supposed to be at first. (I'm an amateur writer, I've been researching those things almost forever :-) Even a story can change completely : JKR said that CoS was originally supposed to be called HBP, but that when it was finished, it held too little relevance to the HBP to be called that way. So it could very well be that Ron took a life of its own, but JKR didn't notice that. 3. Maybe JKR simply doesn't like people like Ron, so she doesn't like him, but I do. In that case, it would be similar to what happens in RL when two people discuss someone else of whom they have different opinions : they simply don't see that person in the same way. It could explain why she said that Ron alone didn't know the Prefect rules, when Ernie, Draco and Hermione didn't know any better : because she doesn't like him. Arya wrote : > Unlike a real person, his future is not up to him, it is up to the > author. So, if you're saying that JKR is prejudiced against Ron in > your opinion and view, than I'd say it's time to just fret more > about his future in canon than other readers seeing him as less than > you do. Del replies : I'm doing both. But I feel entitled to defend my Ron, because he is based entirely on the books. And if I have to change my opinion of him later, because of what happens in the next books, I won't die of it. I was a HUGE fan of Sirius after PoA, my interest decreased A LOT in GoF, and I found myself wondering quite often what I had ever found in him while reading OoP. Does that mean I mourn the time when I loved Sirius so much ? Nope. It was a highly enjoyable moment, and I am glad JKR didn't tell us then that he would turn like he did and die the stupid way he did. Similarly, I'm enjoying my Ron the way I see him now. He will evolve, everyone does. If he changes for the best, I'll be right there to cheer on him. If he doesn't, well, it's life. Del From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 13 22:40:01 2004 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:40:01 -0000 Subject: Question from the new girl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106090 <<>> The Sergeant Majorette says: Anything's possible. But the fact that JKR cut out Dean's backstory because it wasn't as important as Neville's would seem to indicate that Dean is *not* the title character of the next book. My vote's for Remus Lupin. --JDR From Amber_Falls at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 21:20:34 2004 From: Amber_Falls at yahoo.com (Amber_ Falls) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:20:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Three People in the Prophecy In-Reply-To: <004601c468c2$767c7ab0$a7c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: <20040713212034.34095.qmail@web90010.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106091 Cathy wrote: > On page 736 of the Canadian version of OofP, Dumbledore > says: "Voldemort had been *vanquished* hours before..." > The first part of the Prophecy is: "the one with the > power to *vanquish* the Dark Lord approaches..born > as the seventh month dies." Has Harry already > *vanquished* the Dark Lord, now leaving room for > "THE OTHER"? Amber: Well in a way you could say that Harry did "vanquish" Voldemort, not kill him. It took Voldemort 15/16 years to come back. > My only problem with the whole theory is this from OotP: > > 'So,' said Harry, dredging up the words from what > felt like a deep well of despair inside him, 'so > does that mean that ... that one of us has got to > kill the other one...in the end?' > 'Yes,' said Dumbledore. > > Which at first glance looks like DD is saying Harry > has to kill LV or LV has to kill Harry, but what if > it means one of them has to kill Neville? Amber: IMHO Neville is excluded from the prophecy the minute LV marked Harry. I'm sure LV intention was to kill both boys, but he never got the chance to do that. So I tend to believe DD that there is no doubt that it is Harry. I do believe that Neville will play some part in helping Harry, perhaps? I don't know. Remember "the one does have power the Dark Lord knows not" and DD has said that Harry does possess this mysterious power. In that regard I think Neville is out of the picture. Just me 2 knuts on the prophecy Amber From happybean98 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 21:51:58 2004 From: happybean98 at yahoo.com (happybean98) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:51:58 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat doesn't sort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106092 HunterGreen: Then why wasn't she put in Ravenclaw? I see nothing to indicate that pre-Hogwarts Hermione was particularily interested in anything other than books and cleverness. I can't see why a house known specifically for bravery would interest her that much. happpybean98: (stealing quote from Cathy) In the PS6, Hermione says: "Do either of you know what house you'll be in? I've been asking around and I hope I'm in Gryffindor, it sounds by far the best, I hear Dumbledore himself was one..." Del continues: This is precisely why the hat works better than the kids choosing their own house. Being put in Gryffindor forced Hermione to become friends with other Gryffindors and thus opened that part of herself that *was* brave. Had she been put in Ravenclaw she would have been friends with other studious students like herself, and that part of her may have remained dormant- -and completely unused. She fits in the house, but it wasn't obvious to her or anyone else at the time. happybean98: Well, according to what we know about Hermione, it would seem Ravenclaw would have been the obvious choice. But can we assume we know everything about Hermione from what we've read so far? "The mind is not a book, to be opened at will and examined at leisure. Thoughts are not etched on the inside of skulls, to be perused by any invader. The mind is a complex and many-layered thing, Potter..." OoP p. 530 Snape says this, but I agree with him. If even a skilled legilimans could not "read" Hermione's mind, how can we presume to know everything about her just be reading about her? It's possible Hermione posseses intelligence, but values courage more. (see quote from PS/SS above) I understand what you are saying, that maybe the hat is not only identifying their existing qualilties, but also trying to help them grow in new directions. But if "Hat knows best" all the time, even better than the students themselves, why has no one yet been dissatisfied with the house they've been placed in? I mean, what if it had sorted Malfoy into Hufflepuff because it thought he needed to be taken down a notch or two? (I know I wouldn't have been able to resist the temptation). Rebecca: Before the hat the four founders decided themselves which students they wanted to teach, they didn't leave it up to students to decide. Why would they want just any kid who happened to "like" their house (or think they like it), to be sorted there? The point of the hat is to reflect what the founders would do if they were still around, its not just a way to quarter all the students. happybean98: Well, lets assume that what you're saying about the founders is true and that they charmed the hat to think as they would, and magically enabled it to appraise each students qualities and then sort them strictly according to their qualities. I'll put the burden of proof on you. 1. Why was Neville Longbottom put in Gryffindor? 2. Why was Hermione Granger put in Gryffindor? 3. Why does the hat put Harry in Gryffindor? (Harry's words), "It only put me in Gryffindor," said Harry in a defeated voice, "because I asked not to go in Slytherin..." "Exactly," said Dumbledore, beaming once more."Which makes you very different from Tom Riddle. It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." CoS p.333 This tells me that the hat gives more weight to what the student chooses than to thier existing qualities. Cathy: In the PS6, Hermione says: "Do either of you know what house you'll be in? I've been asking around and I hope I'm in Gryffindor, it sounds by far the best, I hear Dumbledore himself was one..." She, for once, never mentioned Hogwarts, A History, but that she had just been 'asking around.' I'm sure she would have read about the different houses in the book, and perhaps the different qualities/abilites each house was looking for (maybe or may not be in the book), but her 'asking around' made her want to go to Gryffindor. . happybean98: Exactly! Thanks for the quote, Cathy, I overlooked that one. It shows that Hermione WANTS to be in Gryffindor, which is why she ended up there, and not in Ravenclaw. Halli: So this (Hat's song) is the equivalent of a leaflet about all the houses, and I heard somewhere that desisions you've made quickly relflect what you feel, or your instinct, so what they think so soon after hearing about them all would be less tainted by other peoples opinions, because no one would be there thinking for them, or even helping them decide...so i guess I agree with the people who say the kid really chooses, because isn't that what DD says? So the hat would reflect that, as it does alot of DDs other ideals. happybean98: Absolutely, I agree with what you've said. I think the hat is acting similar to the way the Mirror of Erised acts according to who is looking inside it. And now, I'll go further to say that not only does the hat have a legilimancy charm on it, but Rowling actually gives us a clue as to how the hat works in OoP when Hermione considers Fred and George's invisibility hats. "How do those hats work, then? "said Hermione, ..."I mean, obviously it's some kind of Invisibility Spell, but it's rather clever to have extended the field of invisibility beyond the boundaries of the charmed object..." OoP p.540 Just replace 'invisibility spell' with 'legilimancy spell' and you have the explanation as to how a charmed object, such as the Sorting Hat extends it's field of legilimancy to include the student's head as well. -happybean98 From snow15145 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 22:49:42 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:49:42 -0000 Subject: Non-British views on purebloods (Was: My take on the Half-blood Prince) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106093 > Carol responds: > While I find your remarks on Bulgarian royalty intriguing and don't > want to discount the possibility that the HBP might be Viktor Krum > (despite his having no known connection to CoS), I want to mention > that the non-British wizards we've seen are all DEs who do care about > the pureblood ideology. The Lestrange brothers, who attended Hogwarts > and were part of a Slytherin (pro-pureblood?) gang, probably can't be > considered non-British, but their name suggests a recent French > origin. (As you say, JKR is generally careful about names and theirs > does not sound British.) They're definitely purebloods since Bellatrix > (Rodolphus Lestrange's wife) is still on the Black Family tapestry. > The progression from Slytherin to Voldemort supporter, especially > coupled with a marriage to Bellatrix Black by one of them and the > torturing of the Longbottoms by both of them, strongly suggests a > fanatical belief in the superiority of purebloods over Muggleborns or > half-bloods that *could* reflect the views of the French wizarding > "aristocracy" as well as those of the Slytherin faction of British > purebloods. > > The name of Antonin Dolohov, a particularly vicious Death Eater, > sounds Slavic or Russian--possibly he attended Durmstrang in his > youth. (My apologies to people who have discussed this earlier; my > point is that he appears to be a non-British advocate of Voldemort's > pureblood ideology.) Igor Karkaroff, the runaway headmaster of > Durmstrang, is almost certainly Slavic, though he seems to be Hogwarts > educated. The important point, though, is that besides teaching the > Dark Arts to his students, he didn't admit Muggleborns to Durmstrang. > (I'm not sure where the quote is--it has to be in GOF somewhere. >snip< Snow: It is in GOF, Chapter 11-Abourd the Hagwarts Express, pg.165 Malfoy is talking "...Father actually considered sending me to Durmstrang rather than Hogwarts, you know. He knows the headmaster, you see. Well, you know his opinion of Dumbledore-the man's such a Mudblood- lover-and Durmstrang doesn't admit that sort of riffraff." Hope it helps! From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 22:55:13 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:55:13 -0000 Subject: HP and the Half Blood Git In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106094 caesian wrote: And while I'm at it, Snape (a fictional character, I know) has been irritating me. Again. I'm OK with the subtlety of Albus Dumbledore allowing Snape to terrorize a generation of students - to their detriment - to no other purpose than the possible defeat of Voldemort. I'm OK with Snape being a jerk. So long as he stays on his page, I love it. On the other hand, those who ascribe secret good intentions to the character of Snape make my brain hurt and my blood insulin soar worse than a quickly consumed pint of Hagendaaz (strawberry). He's a mean evil jerk for the good of Harry and Neville? No. And what makes my angst worse is that people who post these ideas are smart and cool. I read and Respect their posts (the analogy is to Hagendaaz strawberry, after all). Some might say that a central message in the Septology is that the world is not divided into Good People and Death Eaters. I would agree. But in the case of Snape, I'll guide that point to it's logical conclusion - that the world is not divided into Death Eaters and people who aren't Evil Gits. Snape might not be a Death Eater. He might be helping Dumbledore. He might even die a heroic death in glorious sacrifice for Harry, or some such. But he Is evil. Not irredeemable (if Tom Riddle can experience forgiveness, who can't?). But alot worse than "not a nice guy". He's a bad guy. He might not be a death eater, but that doesn't make him good. Siriusly Snapey Susan responded: In reading this, I was, of course, asking myself whether I'm one of those posters who've been annoying you w/ my remarks about Snape. I've called myself a Snape-aholic but NOT a Snape-apologist...and I'm quite willing to be a Snape-basher on occasion...so I simply don't know. But I *would* ask you how you know what the "logical conclusion" to draw is? Isn't that a big part of what Snape-aholics have been saying? That there is so much which is unanswered about our former- DE-turned-potions-master? Without some answers, how do we *know* that he is evil? Cruel, sadistic (JKR's word), abusive (JKR's term), sarcastic--all that is clearly available in canon or in JKR interviews. But "evil"? That seems an awfully strong & certain conclusion to draw at this point. Could you say more? Carol adds: First let me commend SSS for her tactful and sensible response. I think the problem here is that caesian's emotional reaction to Snape is blocking her ability to read these strawberry Hagendaaz posts without a similar reaction. I don't know what to recommend (other than Ben and Jerry's Karamel Sutra ;-) ), but I agree with SSS that you might want to present us with canon evidence that Snape is evil as opposed to sarcastic, etc. Umbridge, I would argue, is genuinely evil but not a Death Eater. Snape--well, Snape is a mystery, which is why some of us (maybe those whose school days are so far behind us that we don't identify much with Harry) find him so intriguing. Consider that he is always trying to keep Harry from breaking the rules and endangering his life--by entering the corridor where the sorceror's/philosopher's stone is or going to Hogsmeade and possibly encountering Sirius Black, to give just two examples. And he really can't be nice to Harry, can he, if he really is trying to keep his cover as Dumbledore's agent from being discovered by his Slytherin students? Consider the courage that it took to reveal the Dark Mark to Fudge and to do whatever errand Dumbledore sent him on at the end of GoF. Consider that, despite his dislike of Harry, he arranged the rescue mission to the MoM. If he hadn't alerted both the Order and Dumbledore, Harry would be dead. However unpleasant Snape may be, all of the evidence, including Dumbledore's repeated assertions that he trusts Severus Snape, point to Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore, his opposition to Voldemort, and his remarkable courage--a very unSlytherin trait. I don't see how those qualities can be reconciled with "evil." I happen to enjoy Snape's wit and sarcasm (for example, his putdown of Umbridge regarding the veritaserum and his advice to Crabbe to stop strangling Neville because he'll have to mention it if Crabbe ever wants a recommendation). I like his uncanny ability to put two and two together (even though he occasionally arrives at the wrong conclusion, like suspecting Harry of taking supplies from his office). I especially like his ability to work loyally for Dumbledore, to be his righthand man (and, I think, an essential part of DD's "army") despite his intense dislike of Harry and the pureblood/Dark Arts instincts that point him in the other direction. It takes real courage to oppose your friends, as Dumbledore said of Neville in SS/PS. And Snape is risking his life, not once but repeatedly. *Something* has caused him to leave the DEs and join Dumbledore. Something has caused him to abandon evil for the cause of good. What can it be? More than anything else in these books, I really want to understand the motivations and history of Severus Snape. Carol, who doesn't want to make anyone's blood boil but does hope to see more canon and less emotion in the discussions of Snape, Sirius, and now Berk!James (the last of which is probably partly my fault) From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 22:54:45 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:54:45 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106095 I, Del, wrote : > > I *never* said that Ron had a poor me syndrome. In fact, Ron almost > > never complains, and when he does he never draws comparisons, he > > only says that he hates being poor. GEO answered : > And also that everything he gets is crap or hand-me-downs from > his dress robes to the baby owl that Sirius gave him. Del replies : Those are consequences of his being poor, aren't they ? And stating that you don't like hand-me-downs doesn't make you whiny. GEO wrote : > Dean, Neville and Ron at least have some form of a decent home > life. Harry is stuck with the Dursleys during the summer and during > the school year he's almost always have to confront an incarnation > of Voldemort or one of his followers. Fact of the matter is, Harry > suffers more than those three. Del replies : Other fact of the matter : Harry doesn't hold an exclusivity on suffering !! Yes, he suffers like mad, but this is no reason to dismiss anyone else's suffering. Just because A has a broken bone doesn't mean B should not let his twisted ankle hurt him. Yes A will have the priority at the ER, but the doctors won't send B back home without treating him either, even though he's got nothing broken. I, Del, wrote : > > A wonderful support system who made him feel like he would never be > > anyone unless he lived up to his parents' expectations and older > > brothers' achievements. GEO answered : > Ron's a teenager. They aren't exactly known for being secure and > stable. Del replies : Technically, at age 11, Ron was not a teenager. And anyway, I fail to miss your point : we should dismiss Ron's insecurities just because he's a teenager and all teenagers are insecure, is that it ? I, Del, wrote : > > A real family is not just or always a support system, it can be a > > burden too. GEO answered : > Don't see how. The first five seem to be doing pretty well > careerwise. Del replies : Careerwise ? What's that got to do with anything ? I'm talking emotional health here, and we know of at least one brother who's obviously unbalanced. I, Del, wrote : > > I don't care anymore what JKR has to say about Ron, not since she > > proved that she's prejudiced against him (see : Ron the Prefect ? > > thread). GEO answered: > She created Ron. You didn't. As the character's creator, I'd > think she knows where she's taking the character. Del replies : You say it yourself : she knows where she's taking him. I only see Ron as he is now. Big difference. For a more detailed explanation, please read my other post, entitled "Ron". GEO wrote : > Dude Percy is the git here. He was being petty and naive and > when his parents put forth the hand of reconciliation, he slapped it > away. Del replies : That's your opinion, not mine. I wrote extensively on the matter just a few days ago. Del From melaniertay at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 22:01:08 2004 From: melaniertay at yahoo.com (Mel) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:01:08 -0000 Subject: Prefects and points In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106096 Del wrote: > I, Del, wrote: > Ron made *amazing* choices for someone normal. > Del replies : > I'll be simple. If anyone, *anyone*, even my husband who is my very > best friend, asked me to go in a bad big forest to follow spiders, > I would tell them to get lost. Ron made a VERY CONSCIOUS choice that > day. And on many other days too. Ron's a great guy and he's now coward. If he was he wouldn't be in Gryf. Would your husband divorce you if you left him to face something like that alone? Not to be rude, but something to think about. > Del replies : > Harry doesn't own Ron, Ron doesn't owe Harry anything, and I'm > sure Harry would *hate* to know that Ron is unhappy with him. He'd > be the first one to push Ron to pursue his dreams, no matter how > selfish. Normally, this would be true. However, it would negate all his previous choices towards fighting Voldemort if he left Harry. Harry isn't typical. He is the kid of the prophecy that is supposed to defeat Voldemort. If Harry loses a lot of wizards will die and there will be "dark times" again. In normal life, I'd agree with you. In this case Ron really doesn't have any more choice than Harry. Both Harry and Ron COULD choose to run away to Alaska, go dark or fight. There's really nothing else. > Arya wrote : > > Of all the things in Ron's life, if he survives the war as > > Harry's best friend, he would be lucky to just alive. > > Del replies : > So he shouldn't shoot for the stars or plan for his future ? Honestly, I thought the career planning was a tad strange for Harry, but not Ron. Really what are the odds he'll need it? I'd like to here Bagman's answer to that one. Still, it is difficult to plan a future in the middle of war. > Del replies : > Without Ron, Harry would never have made it past the giant chess > set, for example. They wouldn't have done anything without Ron. If nothing else, Harry is nonfunctional without him. It was Ron that was taken into the lake as the most important thing in his life. Harry's nothing without Hermione and Ron. Del replies : > I never found any great fun in championing the obvious hero. He > already has tons of fans, and he's the author's favourite anyway. > So ever since I was a very little girl, I found myself attracted > to the underdog, and quite often repelled by the so-obvious-hero- > who-has-all-the-qualities. The underdog is the one who has the > real choice : remain an underdog or reach for the glory. The hero, > as you said concerning Harry, often has little choice but to be a > hero. Booooring. Unless he starts as an underdog (a real one, not > like Harry, who was a Prophesied Hero in disguise). It is a Trelawny prophecy and possibly a crock leaving him still the underdog. However, Harry has a choice. I'd love to see him choose to tell DD to take a hike. Or him and Ron choose to go to Jamaica and live out their lives. (OK not really, but still...he has the same choices Ron has) > Telling me that I should invest my attention only in Harry is like > telling me that only the rich and the beautiful people count in > real life. I shouldn't bother caring about the ordinary people who > don't apparently have the power to change things ? Sorry, I will. Harry is neither rich nor good looking. He's been poor most of his life and he's afraid to spend the small pile of gold. (it wasn't as big as people make out if memory serves). However, I think they're all ordinaryish. If one was spectactular why would you need 3? "Mel" From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 23:12:33 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 23:12:33 -0000 Subject: Prefects and points In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106097 Mel wrote : > Ron's a great guy and he's now coward. If he was he wouldn't be > in Gryf. Would your husband divorce you if you left him to face > something like that alone? Not to be rude, but something to think > about. Del replies : No he wouldn't, just like he would not have asked me to accompany him to start with, precisely because he's my friend, and he knows there are things I just can't do. Even in every day life, he knows there are things I really dread handling (like cleaning the toilet bowl - don't ask, sad story), so he does them himself even though he loathes the task. Inversely, there are things I will *never* ask him to do, because I know it would be horribly cruel. We are just ordinary people, you see. But Ron did get over his worst fear, out of pure loyalty to his friends. I call that extraordinary. Mel wrote : > Normally, this would be true. However, it would negate all his > previous choices towards fighting Voldemort if he left Harry. Harry > isn't typical. He is the kid of the prophecy that is supposed to > defeat Voldemort. If Harry loses a lot of wizards will die and > there will be "dark times" again. Del replies : Ron could perfectly continue fighting in the war, just not along Harry. If DD offered him to direct the operations in a place far from Harry for example, Ron could be loyal to the cause, get his own glory, and be away from Harry all at the same time. Mel wrote : > They wouldn't have done anything without Ron. If nothing else, > Harry is nonfunctional without him. It was Ron that was taken into > the lake as the most important thing in his life. Harry's nothing > without Hermione and Ron. Del replies : Go tell that to Arya. I, Del, wrote : > > Telling me that I should invest my attention only in Harry is like > > telling me that only the rich and the beautiful people count in > > real life. I shouldn't bother caring about the ordinary people who > > don't apparently have the power to change things ? Sorry, I will. Mel answered : > Harry is neither rich nor good looking. He's been poor most of his > life and he's afraid to spend the small pile of gold. (it wasn't as > big as people make out if memory serves). However, I think they're > all ordinaryish. If one was spectactular why would you need 3? Del replies : Apart from the fact that Harry *is* rich, it was just a comparison anyway. And Arya would tell you that Harry is extraordinary, Hermione too probably, and that Harry could have made it all alone anyway. Well, if I understood her properly, which I am not so sure of to be honest. Del From Amber_Falls at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 21:55:14 2004 From: Amber_Falls at yahoo.com (Amber_ Falls) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:55:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pensieve In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040713215514.61394.qmail@web90010.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106098 --- delwynmarch wrote: > > I, Del, wrote : > > We have no proof that a Pensieve memory is objective, but I would be > > *thoroughly* disappointed to learn that it isn't, because it would > > *undermine* the whole point of the Pensieve IMO. > > Amber answered : > > You know I've thought a lot about this. I don't think a memory is > > objective. If you think about it logically it can't be. > > I think what DD meant was by putting the memory in the pensive > > allowed him to look at without the emotions that would go > > along with it. He could look at it in a more detached way. > > Del replies : > But if, as you say, our emotions modify the memory to start with, if > the memory is not objective because we've tainted it with our emotions > right from the beginning, then what's the point of trying to look at > it objectively later? Amber: Del, you've come with good points. I'm going a bit off topic here. I don't know if this the best example, but bear with me. To me it's like watching a (horror) movie with the sound on. Later I will watch it with the sound off. It will be a different experience. The images are still the same, but no sound to interfere with what I am seeing. I think that what DD means by putting the memory in a Pensieve is that he's able to see it in a different way without the interfering of emotions or other thoughts. I guess you can never be 100% objective, but it will give you the chance to look at it in a more detached way. Amber who's hoping that she makes some sense here. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 00:12:35 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 00:12:35 -0000 Subject: Rethinking Ron form several angles. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106099 Rethinking Ron Leadership- Let me begin by asking if an Army Sergeant a leader? He leads a platoon of men, and is responsible for them. Yet, he must follow higher ranking Sergeants. Is a Lieutenant a leader, he does after all follow a Captain? So, is the Captain a leader when he in turn follows a Major who in turn follows a Colonel who in turn follows a General who in turn follows a bigger General who in turn follows the leader of the country who in turn is responsible to the people of the country who in turn partly make up the foot soldiers of the Army and those foot soldiers in turn follow a Sergeant? The point I'm making now is the same one I made in other posts, that to have leadership skill doesn't mean you are always the guy in front telling everyone else what to do. It's about stepping up when called upon. It's about being decisive when it counts. It's about courage and a willingness to face danger. It's about taking initiative, setting priorities, understanding teamwork, and being able to function under pressure. Even among equals, such as foot soldiers, there are natural leaders who have the qualities I have outline. When the 'OH CRAP!' situation occurs every face turns towards them for direction even if they are not the official leader. If Harry is not there and Ron is, then it's safe to say every face will turn toward Ron. Harry, in a manner of speaking, has his own army now, the DA Club, and while Harry may be the Captain, he is going to need a few trusted Lieutenants to act as leaders. I can't think of anyone who is more qualified, who has more often proven themselves time and time again, who can be trusted to express the leadership skill I have outlined better than Hermione and Ron. Just because you aren't THE leader doesn't mean you aren't A leader. In everyday life, Ron is just a 'guy', not much different than Seamus or Dean. But ask yourself, whose hands do you want to put your own life in Ron's or Seamus's? Me, I'll take Ron. Prefect Qualifications- For the moment, let's not compare Ron to Harry, how about if we compare Ron's qualification to Seamus's? What has Seamus ever done? How has he ever distinguished himself in any way? When has he ever shown that he has what it takes to function in a crisis, and take initiative under extreme pressure? He hasn't. He hasn't demonstrated any skills or taken any initiative to suggest that he could be a good Prefect. Under ideal conditions the worst candidate can be an adequate Prefect, but under extreme pressure and in the face of danger, would you prefer the first years were in the hands of Seamus or Ron? Certainly Harry is a good candidate for Prefect, but we have to consider 'pluses' AND 'Minuses'. Harry has a lot of pluses, but he also has significant minuses. He's under tremendous pressure that is only going to get worse. These pressures and the fact that an obsessed nutter is trying to kill him, make for some serious distractions. Given the pressures and distraction Harry is faced with, is he really in a good position to take on the added responsibilities of Prefect? It's not a question of whether he would be honored by the appointment; it's a question of is it right and productive to heap that additional pressure on him, especially when Dumbledore knows, as of the beginning of OotP, that Harry hasn't yet faced his greatest burden; the Prophecy? Compound this by the fact that Dumbledore knows Dolores Umbridge will be at the school with the specific intent of discrediting both Dumbledore and Harry. It makes perfect sense for Dumbledore to appoint the second best candidate who also happens to have a good cross section of proven skill and experience, and far fewer minuses. So, he chose Ron; the only Gryffindor boy, other than Harry, who has distinguished himself in any way. When all the 'pluses' and 'minuses' were weighed, Ron won the position of Prefect. Prefect - Good or Bad- Ron was certainly no Hermione or Percy, but then who in that school is? No one lives up to that standard. Ron was just as good a Prefect as any other Prefect. He did his job, he helped the first years, he monitored the halls, he carried out his duties as well as anyone else. Why didn't he take on Fred and George? Why didn't anyone else? The other Prefects didn't care if Fred and George were testing on first years. They saw the sign posted on the bulletin board. They saw what was going on in the common room. It's grossly unfair to imply that Ron failed because he didn't meet Hermione's standard. Ron certainly had far better reasons than any of the other Prefect for not challenging the Twins; he has to live with them year round. Plus, this was Ron's first year as Prefect. Now there will be two more (probably Ginny) junior Prefects that the older Prefects can put the 'busy work' on, while the Senior Prefects kick back and concentrate on the really important things. Remember, we have all out war now, and Prefects are going to be called on to do more that keep the noise down. In time, Ron will prove he was a good choice. In addition to all Ron's other attributes, Dumbledore was probably attracted to Ron in the position of Prefect because Ron had the greatest potential to grow. As I believe Shaun pointed out a while back in our many 'boarding school' discussions, sometimes unrealized potential is the very reason a person is made Prefect. Order of the Phoenix - Fight at the Ministry I was thoroughly annoyed with how Ron was portrayed in the Dept of Mysteries fight; incoherent, laughing and giggling, making stupid jokes, summoning the brain, etc.... But as much as I hated that, I understand why it played out that way. JKR needed ALL members of the DA Club to be disabled so that Neville could step forward into the light; it was his chance to shine. That pretty much made all the DA members dead weight from a story perspective, so why not have Ron throw in a little humor. Remember, Ron wasn't just being a jerk, he was under the influence of a power spell; dazed and confused. The Face of the Clown- Several people argued whether Ron was strictly comic relief; whether he has personal potential or if he was doomed to be forever the bumbling but lovable sidekick. Is Ron comic relief? Yes, he's a funny guy and that's one of the reasons Harry likes him, and one of the reasons I like him. So, the argument isn't is he comic relief, it whether he is JUST comic relief. The answer is I certainly don't think he is limited to the role of bumbling but lovable comic sidekick. A bumbling sidekick doesn't take charge and play a life-and-death game of chess like Ron did, nor does he readily sacrifice himself at the end. A bumbling sidekick doesn't stand on a broken leg, step in front of his best friend, and face down the most dangerous killer alive. A clown doesn't fight his way out of the grips of the Inquisitorial Squad, enter deep into a dark and dangerous forest full of monsters, giants, and mad Centaur to help a friend. So yes, without a doubt Ron is a funny guy, but he has been, is, and will be so much more than that. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. Steve/asian_lovr2 From melaniertay at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 23:06:47 2004 From: melaniertay at yahoo.com (Mel) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 23:06:47 -0000 Subject: HP and the Half Blood Git In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106100 > Carol, who doesn't want to make anyone's blood boil but does hope to > see more canon and less emotion in the discussions of Snape, Sirius, > and now Berk!James (the last of which is probably partly my fault) The problem is there is no Cannon either way. Even the items you listed cannot be proven in Cannon. Did it take courage for Snape to show his mark to Fudge? I don't know, maybe everyone already knew it was there. It probably isn't much of a secret that he was a Deatheater. He did try to save Harry from the broom, which indicates loyalty to DD. But was he loyal to DD only because Voldemort hadn't yet returned? He notified the order about Harry's departure, to keep his cover or because he was worried? He was, in fact, a deatheater and must have taken part in deatheater "activities". None of the info he's passed on thus far has brought and end to the war. However, DD trusts him and he's no idiot. I find him interesting because you just don't know what he's up to. I hope we don't find out until the end, because I just love the mystery. "Mel" From hallisallimalli at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 23:29:16 2004 From: hallisallimalli at yahoo.com (halli) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 23:29:16 -0000 Subject: SHIP Krum's Role (was SHIP Luna.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106101 > Jim Ferer wrote: > > I'm H/Hr as well, and Luna is an unknown. We just don't know much at > > all. I have to say I find Luna's serene, slightly eccentric > > spirituality intriguing, and good for Harry, but it's way short of > > enough for a romance. > > > > In a strictly plot analytical way, you could argue it's more likely that Luna is there for Ron, not Harry. After all, JKR didn't need to introduce a new character to be Harry's love interest when she already had Ginny at hand. But I prefer to treat the characters as real, not plot elements. Trying to analyze the plot that way can really lead to error. > > And we all have to figure out where Viktor fits in. > > I think the only one that has the answer to the question "who does > Hermione love" right now is Viktor Krum. > > If we go back to GoF, we clearly see that Krum was "jealous" of the > H/Hr relationship, even going as far as confronting Harry to see what > was between him and Hermione. Although Harry quickly denied anything > was going on between them. > (snip) Halli: I'm not trying to kill anyones visions of a "happy ending" or anything, but somehow I don't see these books as romantic as some of you... I'm not entirely sure that everyone is going to pair off in the end and get married or whatever... I mean, this is more of a subplot than anything isn't it? Why such a big deal? I'm sure that the stories will be just as good if theres no sappy "I just realized! I love you Harry!" "Wow! /I/ just realized I love Luna!" "Oh how perfect that we all have someone to love now that VM is defeated! It's just perfect!" I mean, I just never really envisioned that happening in the end. Maybe a couple of people would get together, or have been together, but quite frankly, at the risk of sounding like an old grouch, theres been alot of posting going on about this, seems a rather touchy subject for a few of you... It's not really of that much importance... Hopefully no ones too mad at me... From staceymateo at verizon.net Tue Jul 13 23:41:14 2004 From: staceymateo at verizon.net (staceymateo) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 23:41:14 -0000 Subject: HP and the Half Blood Git In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106102 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Consider that he is always trying to keep Harry from breaking the > rules and endangering his life--by entering the corridor where the > sorceror's/philosopher's stone is or going to Hogsmeade and possibly > encountering Sirius Black, to give just two examples. And he really > can't be nice to Harry, can he, if he really is trying to keep his > cover as Dumbledore's agent from being discovered by his Slytherin > students? Consider the courage that it took to reveal the Dark Mark to > Fudge and to do whatever errand Dumbledore sent him on at the end of > GoF. Consider that, despite his dislike of Harry, he arranged the > rescue mission to the MoM. If he hadn't alerted both the Order and > Dumbledore, Harry would be dead. > > However unpleasant Snape may be, all of the evidence, including > Dumbledore's repeated assertions that he trusts Severus Snape, point > to Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore, his opposition to Voldemort, and his > remarkable courage--a very unSlytherin trait. I don't see how those > qualities can be reconciled with "evil." > > I happen to enjoy Snape's wit and sarcasm (for example, his putdown of > Umbridge regarding the veritaserum and his advice to Crabbe to stop > strangling Neville because he'll have to mention it if Crabbe ever > wants a recommendation). I like his uncanny ability to put two and two > together (even though he occasionally arrives at the wrong conclusion, > like suspecting Harry of taking supplies from his office). I > especially like his ability to work loyally for Dumbledore, to be his > righthand man (and, I think, an essential part of DD's "army") despite > his intense dislike of Harry and the pureblood/Dark Arts instincts > that point him in the other direction. It takes real courage to oppose > your friends, as Dumbledore said of Neville in SS/PS. And Snape is > risking his life, not once but repeatedly. > > *Something* has caused him to leave the DEs and join Dumbledore. > Something has caused him to abandon evil for the cause of good. What > can it be? More than anything else in these books, I really want to > understand the motivations and history of Severus Snape. Stacey now: New poster here! Hi all! And with the formalities out of the way... I think that we haven't even begun to see what JKR has in store with Snape. He tends to do things that go against everything he shows as being his "true nature". Of course, we are seeing this "true nature" through a pair of tainted eyes, those of Harry. This limited view of Snape leads to some deception on the part of JKR. By not allowing us to see the full story, we are left pondering (such as we are now :)). I think that the little things that Snape does to help Harry are a little more in line with the "true" Snape. In PS/SS, he saves Harry from Quirrell in the Quidditch match. In OotP, he is the one who contacts the Order to inform them of the action at the Ministry. I don't doubt that Snape is transferring some of his anger toward James onto Harry, but at the same time, I think he is also watching out for Harry. His actions in noticing everything that Harry does notes that he pays attention to Harry. How did he know that Harry wasn't allowed in Hogsmede in PoA? Harry had to turn in his form to McGonagall, his head of house, and last time I read canon (excusing some pretty good Slytherin Harry stories in fanon), Snape is not his head of house. Snape goes out of his way to "watch" Harry and know everything he is doing. I really don't think it is accidental that Snape is always the one to barely miss catching Harry and co. in some misdeed. Also, we know that Snape is loyal to Dumbledore, and Dumbledore must protect Harry in order to fufill the prophecy. Whether Snape is "watching" Harry to repay James for saving his life or for some unknown reason to Lily or to show is loyality to Dumbledore and to the defeat of Voldemort, I think this will be a major plot bunny for books 6 and 7. However, I also think he is good candidate for sacrifice for this reason. The double agent usually is uncloaked in the end and is killed by the good guys for turning against them, or killed by the bad guys for turning against them. Snape's days are numbered, the way I see it, but he will "die for the cause" after his usefulness to the fight is over. He should be up to his old ways of stalking Harry and sneering oh so sexily (or at least when Alan Rickman is doing the sneering) for Book 6, but it wouldn't surprise me if he meets it in the final battle. Stacey From dzeytoun at cox.net Tue Jul 13 23:21:27 2004 From: dzeytoun at cox.net (dzeytoun) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 23:21:27 -0000 Subject: FF: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106103 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "huntergreen_3" < > > Out of curiousity, what is it that you would like to see Dumbledore > do with Snape? Fire him or force him to change his methods? Because > if he fired him Dumbledore might be faced with the situation of not > having another potions master to take his place (not to mention Snape > would no longer be nearby if he needed him, something that has proved > VERY useful in the past), and if he forced him to change his methods, > Snape almost certainly refuse, and then be fired. I think this is well handled in a fanfic called "Folly" by Bored Beyond Belief. It can be found here: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/1712551/1/ Dzeytoun Elf Note: Please do not discuss the fanfic itself in this forum. From meriaugust at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 00:31:17 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 00:31:17 -0000 Subject: Why Fret About Voldemort Considering Riddle? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106104 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > Meri wrote : > > IMHO, in Harry's mind at this point the prophecy doesn't mean that > > he'll have to face LV in battle, but might perhaps have to go after > > LV like an assassin. > > Del replies : > The Prophecy says no such thing. It doesn't even say that Harry will > *intentionally* kill LV. It could all end that LV will die in some > accident that Harry will make to happen. Meri again: I know what the prophecy says, I'm just saying what I think is going on in Harry's mind. In fact, the prophecy is frustratingly nonspecific about the details of the final battle and who can do what to whom. But as I said IMVHO, in Harry's mind the prophecy seems to imply some sort of predetermination on his part. He's going to have to do *something* and be the pro-actor instead of the reactor. And, as I said in my original post, planning to go out an kill anyone, even someone as henious as LV, is something that should weigh heavily on anyone, even someone like Harry, who has suffered so much at LV's hands. > Meri wrote : > > How many people do you think will try to convince him that killing > > LV, the one who killed James and Lily and Cedric and all those other > > people, wouldn't be murder but a justifiable act? > > Del replies : > It would be self-defence. The Prophecy states it clearly : it's Harry > or LV. LV has already proven that he believes in the Prophecy, he's > already tried to kill Harry. So whatever Harry does now would be > rightfully considered self-defence. Even if he attacked. Attacking > someone who already attempted to kill you and has made it clear that > they will attempt to take your life again next time they see you IS > considered self-defence still. Meri: Fair point, but I still think that in Harry's mind the two are not the same. It would be one thing if Harry was cornered and had no other choice but to kill LV and entirely another if he actually had to plan an assault on LV's HQ, penetrate to LV's deepest hiding place and cast the final spell, whatever that is. I'm not saying that I see a difference, I just think that Harry does. > To be honest, I was dismayed when I read that part about Harry > thinking that he would have to commit *murder* or be killed. It was > such a pathetic attempt at making us pity Harry even more ! We've > known for a long time, way before OoP, that it would end up like that, > and Harry knew it too deep inside, it was obvious. But it was never > considered murder, either by him or by us the readers. So where did > that come from, honestly ?! Meri: Really? You think that was supposed to elicit pity? I kinda thought that it was a reminder that Harry is still just a kid. I don't think an adult would hold any such romantic (not really the word I'm looking for, but you get the idea) notions that killing LV would be murder. I think that a grownup, something that Harry just isn't quite, would understand that there is a difference between cold blooded murder and what he has to do, but once again, I think in Harry's mind there is a distinction. Meri - with a nod to Del: always good to have a interesting debating opponent! From aandj at labyrinth.net.au Wed Jul 14 00:25:16 2004 From: aandj at labyrinth.net.au (Jocelyn Grunow) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 11:25:16 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106105 > "Agnes Raggett" wrote: > > I'm with Huntergreen. This was never going to work, as DD > realises in the end (but too late!). If the tutor and the student do > not appreciate each other then it will NOT work. People can be strangely blind about this sort of thing. I have a friend with an extraordinarily high IQ whose staff at work had done some serious undermining of her. Immediately after the fallout from that she decided that the ringleader needed a new skill and SHE was going to teach it to him. I pointed out to her that he might not be able to learn it from her, but she just couldn't seem to understand that. She kept saying things like "But it will be to his advantage to learn this!" and "He has been told that I am his boss and he has to do what I say." and "He's not stupid... just annoying" Sure enough, none of these logical reasons made the slightest difference. This chap was not able to learn from her because he detested her very existence! She had to do what I had suggested in the first place - set another of her staff (who was not nearly as skilled as she was) to teach him. I never heard any more about this, so I assume it worked. Perhaps my friend is more a Hermione type than a Dumbledore type, but I don't think it was an unreasonable blunder to ask Snape to teach Harry. Those who work primarily from logic often assume that others can do so if they choose. Jocelyn From aandj at labyrinth.net.au Wed Jul 14 00:34:49 2004 From: aandj at labyrinth.net.au (Jocelyn Grunow) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 11:34:49 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why Fret About Voldemort Considering Riddle? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106106 on 14/7/2004 4:32 AM, Louis Badalament at lb140900 at yahoo.com wrote: > No sympathy for the one who killed his godfather, and yet Harry > feels regrets about killing the one who murdered his father and > mother? It's all very weird to me. THe Bellatrix incident occurs in the heat of battle. Who hasn't felt fury rise up in them at some incident? Who hasn't wanted to cause injury, for much less cause than this? Sitting down and coldly realising that you are going to have to take the life of another or die yourself is quite a different matter. JMHO Jocelyn From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Jul 14 00:53:42 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 00:53:42 -0000 Subject: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106107 > > Del replies : > I couldn't agree more. I was completely appalled at how Harry first believed in such an absurdity as Sirius being tortured by LV in the DoM (come ON !!!), and then tried to force his friends to believe in it too by *shouting* at them (that's not the Harry I know). I was even more disappointed at Hermione for not refusing point-blank to go there, and not only because I was SOOOOO hoping that she would *finally* tell Harry to get lost, but because it's just not Hermione. > Both Harry *and* Hermione acted out-of-character on that one. > > It was very hard for me to read the story from that point on, because I had been completely pulled out of the book. Everything stank of > absurdity, and it was really a drag to read about how Harry was > yelling at everyone and being a horrible little dictator trying to > intimidate everyone into obeying him. Even after the bad temper Harry had been in all year, even considering what he'd seen in his dream, the whole scene was simply out-of-character for me.< But that's what Voldemort does to people. He tricks, jinxes and blackmails people into doing terrible things without being able to stop themselves. You can't say we weren't warned. Harry simply never wanted to consider that Voldemort might be doing something like that to *him.* Oh no, he's too special. I can't blame the other members of the DA too much. They went because Harry was going, to help him, even if there was nothing they could do but die beside him, because he would have done the same for them. Pippin From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 00:57:31 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 00:57:31 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle - Riddle murders In-Reply-To: <15f.31cb4b67.2e21af4a@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106108 Wanda wrote: The underage magic thing had occurred to me, too - they [the Riddles] were killed in the summer, so wouldn't 3 AKs by an underaged wizard outside of school have been noticed by the MoM? > Batchevra responded: Not to excuse Tom Riddle Jr., but we don't know when the laws were enacted that underage wizards couldn't use magic out of school. If the laws weren't in place, then technically he wasn't breaking any law, except the ones about murder. Just a thought. Carol adds: And even if the laws against underage magic were enacted at that time, I don't think that the Riddle House would have been monitored. The MoM would have assumed that Tom was in the orphanage. Tom was remarkably lucky, too, that most wizards in the MoM don't read Muggle newspapers and would have been unaware that three Muggles *named Riddle* had been murdered. (I wonder if Dumbledore knew and suspected that Tom had done it but had no way to prove it.) But the incident happened the summer before Tom returned to Hogwarts as Head Boy, so he could quite easily have been seventeen already--a fully qualified wizard who had passed his O.W.L.s and had his apparating license. No one would have been watching him. A more important question to me is how Tom got away without being suspected as the murderer by the Muggle authorities. Unless he was disinherited, he'd have been heir to the estate, and if he was disinherited, he'd have a motive (revenge). Also, the Muggle gardener, Frank Bryce, claimed to have seen a pale, dark-haired teenage boy near the house on that day (GoF Am. ed. 3). If the Muggle authorities knew that Riddle Sr. had a (disowned) son and knew where he lived, why didn't they suspect him and come after him? Instead, the police are sure that Frank invented the boy (GoF 3). Why has no one in Little Hangleton, including the authorities, ever heard of Tom Jr.? I'm guessing, for one thing, that the orphanage where Tom had previously stayed was a long way from Little Hangleton. But evidently Tom's existence had also been hushed up. The marriage itself may not have been a secret, but Tom Sr. would have washed his hands of his wife through a divorce or dissolution (what's the word for a marriage that's wiped from the record as if it never existed?) and arranged for the baby to be born far away. I know it's been argued that the orphanage must have been in Little Hangleton because Mrs. Riddle was a local girl, but how could Tom have been a "stranger" (GoF 3) and not the logical suspect if that were the case? As far as I can see, Tom (now seventeen and unwatched) must have apparated to Little Hangleton, killed his family, run into the shadows, apparated back to wherever he was living with no one the wiser, and coolly returned to school as Head Boy the next fall. Now that, my dear list mates, is evil. Carol From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Wed Jul 14 01:10:53 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 01:10:53 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106109 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > Valky's chain of deductions : > Snape was raised in and presumably liked the Dark Arts > Hence : Snape would choose a Dark Curse to defend himself > Hence : Any curse that Snape would choose would necessarily be Dark Magic. > This is a flawed reasoning, it's not logical. Hence I don't accept it as a convincing argument. That was all. > Valk: Del, I never went from presumable to hence. You KNOW I went from Snape stands accused, by an as yet not proven to be unreliable source (Sirius), of preferring Dark Arts spells to other kind at this time, to hence he used his preferred style. Or didn't you? Not as flawed really, anyway. > Charme wrote : > > *what if* Dark Magic is just any magic performed to the detrement, psychological or otherwise, of another? If that's the case, James AND Snape both are guilty. > > Del replies : > Ah Charme, you're on the way of becoming my new best friend, you know that ;-) ? > Valk: Ok, lets postulate drawing the line somewhere else. The Expelliarmus and the Impedimenta are *by nature* Defensive spells, and a cutting curse is *by its nature* a violent attack. Scourgify is an otherwise quite, innocuous spell, obviously misused by James in this case. The distinction between the types of spells used in the melee is there, one just needs to be willing to see it. Wish I had more time to really load my side of the equals sign here, I guess I'll have to leave it at that. Best to you. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 01:18:46 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 01:18:46 -0000 Subject: Peeves (Was: HBP of What?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106110 Angie wrote: Interesting. Someone (drawing a blank on who said it, but I think it was in SS) said that Peeves wasn't a real ghost, anyway, or words to that effect. Never understood what was meant by that remark. Katie responded: So far as I understand it, a poltergeist *isn't* really a ghost. They're both disembodied, cognizant spirits, but a ghost is the spirit of *someone who used to be alive*, while a poltergeist is a malevolent spirit that was *never actually alive*. So Peeves can't be a half-blood of that kind, anyway. He's always been a poltergeist, and always will be. Carol adds: I agree with Katie with one small difference. Peeves isn't "disembodied." Unlike the silvery ghosts, who can pass through walls, Peeves is always described as "a little man" who happens to be able to float but is apparently tangible. He can write naughty words on the chalkboard, dump water balloons on people, and (in PoA) suffer the indignity of having Lupin send his chewing gum "down" his left nostril (he's upside down at the time). Definitely a spirit of mischief and not a "proper ghost." Carol, who wonders just how the Bloody Baron is able to control him From garybec101 at comcast.net Wed Jul 14 01:23:54 2004 From: garybec101 at comcast.net (garybec) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 01:23:54 -0000 Subject: Why Fret About Voldemort Considering Riddle? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106111 Louis Badalament But my question is... why? Why does he even *feel* this guilt? > > Remember book 2? He killed Tom Riddle easily enough. He was, in > > fact, rather proud of the accomplishment, even years later... > I think it's just the difference between heat-of-the-moment, desperate *reaction*, and this sober reflection on what it's going to feel like > to actually have to deliberately kill someone else. Plus, I don't > think that Harry actually KNEW that stabbing the diary would kill > Riddle - he took a chance because he was desperate and had nothing to > lose, and it paid off. As he said himself, he was lucky. It's quite > a different thing to contemplate and plan someone else's death. > > Wanda Becki's thoughts; Perhaps Harry's ponderings are not that he has to kill LV, but is questioning his own ability to do it. Even in DD office Harry says (when told about the prophecy), "But I haven't any powers he hasn't got, I couldn't fight the way he did tonight, I can't possess people- or kill them-". (OoP pg.843 am) It could be numbness setting over him of the whole situation and now he is doubting himself and wondering how he can kill LV? Becki, (a huge fan of the boy who WILL live) From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 01:26:02 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 01:26:02 -0000 Subject: HP and the Half Blood Git In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106112 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Carol adds: snip. > And he really > can't be nice to Harry, can he, if he really is trying to keep his > cover as Dumbledore's agent from being discovered by his Slytherin > students? Consider the courage that it took to reveal the Dark Mark to > Fudge and to do whatever errand Dumbledore sent him on at the end of > GoF. Consider that, despite his dislike of Harry, he arranged the > rescue mission to the MoM. If he hadn't alerted both the Order and > Dumbledore, Harry would be dead. > Alla: I want to say it again. If Snape is being nice to Harry , it will only help him maintain his supposed cover (I don't believe that he is spying), IMO. Then in Voldemort's eyes, Snape will be in Dumbledore's good graces, because he will be nice to Dumbledore's "golden boy". If Snape is nasty to Harry, would not it be logical to VOldemort to think that Dumbledore will not trust Snape that much, because of what he does to Harry? Carol: > However unpleasant Snape may be, all of the evidence, including > Dumbledore's repeated assertions that he trusts Severus Snape, point > to Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore, his opposition to Voldemort, and his > remarkable courage--a very unSlytherin trait. I don't see how those > qualities can be reconciled with "evil." Alla: Not evil , no, but so very far from good person yet. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 01:44:45 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 01:44:45 -0000 Subject: Ron's "poor me" syndrome. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106113 > Alla wrote previously: > > Oh, yes he does have "a poor me"syndrome. If many people will not > find all the examples of him complaining till the time I am home, I > will definitely do it. Alla again: Sorry to reply to my own post, but hereare som examples of Ron's endless complaining of how poor he is. "Five," said Ron. For some reason, he was looking gloomy. "I'm the sixth in our family to go to Hogwarts. You could say I've got a lot to live up to. Everyone expects me to do as well as others, but if I do, it's no big deal, because they did it first. You never get anything new, either, with five brothers. I've got Bill's old robes, Charlie's old wand and Percy's old rat" PS/SS, paperback; am. ed., p.99-100. "Ron had taken out a lumpy package and unwrapped it. There were four sandwiches inside. He pulled one of them apart and said, "She always forgets I don't like corned beef." PS/SS, p.101 "Ron was admiring the cloak. "I'd give anything for one of these," he said. "Anything. What is the matter?" ? PS/SS, p.201. "Why aren't you wearing yours, Ron?" George demanded. "Come on, get it on, they're lovely and warm." "I hate maroon," Ron moaned halfheartedly as he pulled it over his head." ? PS/SS, p.202 "It's a bit small," said Ron quickly. "Not like that room you had with the Muggles. And I am right underneath the ghoul in the attic; he is always banging on the pipes and groaning " But Harry, grinning wildly, said, "This is the best house I've ever been in." Ron's ears went pink" ?CoS, am.ed., p.41 "Wish I hadn't bought this now," said Ron, gesturing at his dancing shamrock hat and gazing longingly at the Omnioculars. "Three pairs," said Harry firmly to the wizard. "No-don't bother," said Ron, going red. He was always touchy about the fact that Harry, who had inherited a small fortune from his parents, had much more money than he did." - GoF, p.94, amer.ed. "Well, they `re okay!" said Ron angrily, looking at Harry's robes, Why couldn't I have something like that?" ? GoF, p.156 Is it a mortal sin for Ron to complain about his poorness? Surely not, BUT it does get very annoying. I am expecting Ron to put things in perspective by now. I did not go searching for quotes in OoP, because right now I am under impression that he did not complain in the last book, BUT it could be that I am up for dissapointment. From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Jul 14 01:54:17 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 01:54:17 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius lure Severus into the Willow? (was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106114 Jen: > > Snape didn't get his coveted pound of flesh because he had > > reasons for keeping silent. It's clear in POA that Snape is > > willing to skirt around Dumbledore's wishes when he wants to; nothing > > Dumbledore said or did would keep Snape from talking about the > > Prank if he wanted to do so. No, he's not talking because he's > > either hiding something or protecting someone. Which it is, I haven't a clue. > > Amber: > > You have very good points there, Jen. At the end of > > PoA it didn't stop him to reveal that Lupin is a > > werewolf. He knew very well that this went against DD > > wishes. I don't think he would have keep his mouth shut > > unless he's got a good reason. > Casey: > Unless Snape learned from that event that his only option was to > speak up. That leaving it up to Dumbledore to take the, in his > opinion, correct action was a lost cause. Jen: I've read this argument before, but how do we know Dumbledore was even involved? Remind me if I'm missing something huge, but the only information I remember was in PS, when Dumbledore told Harry that James saved Snape once upon a time. We don't know when Snape divulged this information, or even IF Snape was the one who told him. James could have told Dumbledore just as easily, and several years after the fact. I think the Prank was between the boys, and that Snape is hiding something major about the incident. Jen R. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 02:04:26 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 02:04:26 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius lure Severus into the Willow? (was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106115 Jen wrote: snip. > I think the Prank was between the boys, and that Snape is hiding > something major about the incident. > Alla: I like that. Maybe that is why Dumbledore shut Snape up so easily, because dear Severus has a lot to hide about what heppened that night. I can't wait to read "The Prank. A history" in full. :o) From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 02:22:25 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 02:22:25 -0000 Subject: Cockney rhyming slang (berk) (Was James the Berk) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106116 . . . .Sylvia (who heartily endorses the motion that James is a berk, but hopes our American cousins realize that this is Cockney rhyming slang) Carol: Hi, Sylvia! I tried to respond to your July 5(?) Mark Evans post off list (R.I.P., Mark the Muggleborn! I miss you!) but my e-mail bounced back--I hope the List Elves will forgive me for mentioning it here. BTW, my request for the James defenders to step forward was not intended as a challenge to a figurative duel. I only wanted to hear what they had to say, preferably in a straightforward, canon-supported sort of way. So I hope I'll be forgiven for declining Valky's invitation to sharpen my Snape fangs. I don't think or react in those terms, sorry, Valky! I also think the main reason for liking James should be that he outgrew his "arrogant little berk" phase. Fifteen-year-olds are children, and fortunately for the WW, he didn't remain a child. But I'm not going to argue with anyone who's convinced otherwise. I'll just agree to disagree. Almost forgot the point of my post, which was to ask you for a clarification of your Cockney rhyming slang remark. (I'm one of your "American cousins," as I'm sure you know, and I've never quite gotten the concept.) Berk = jerk? And wasn't it Sirius himself who first applied the term to James and himself, so if *he* admits it, maybe it's JKR's view, too? Also are there any other examples of Cockney rhyming slang in the book that we should know about? And on a somewhat related note, Steve (I think) mentioned Ron calling Harry "mate" in OoP--the first time he does so in the American editions. Does he do it earlier in the British editions? (It grated on me at first; it seemed as if he was trying to sound like the twins.) Carol, still trying to get caught up but having to skip a lot of posts to do it! From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 02:41:08 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 02:41:08 -0000 Subject: SHIP Krum's Role (was SHIP Luna.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106117 Halli:"I'm not trying to kill anyones visions of a "happy ending" or anything, but somehow I don't see these books as romantic as some of you... I'm not entirely sure that everyone is going to pair off in the end and get married or whatever... I mean, this is more of a subplot than anything isn't it? Why such a big deal? I'm sure that the stories will be just as good if theres no sappy "I just realized! I love you Harry!" "Wow! /I/ just realized I love Luna!" "Oh how perfect that we all have someone to love now that VM is defeated!..." Actually, you make more sense than most of us, but what fun would it be to argue about their future angst? The potential romantic pairings are insights into how we see the characters. They're all so real to us we want to see them all happy, as we would our friends. How the heck else can we go on about the nascent love lives of fictional people? In other words, Halli, in the words of David Byrne and the Talking Heads, stop making sense. To me, Rowling's greatest creations are the characters she's given us, including maybe the most fully realized children in literature in a long time. I want to understand each one of them as best I can, get under their skins and into their minds and hearts. Another thing that makes romance such a hot topic here is that the books are so much about love. It's always been there, between the characters and flowing (or conspicuously not flowing) from adults. When most kids here the word "love" they only think about romance, but they're reading about several kinds of love here. I've talked to my daughters about the bonds between the characters, especially now that Dumbledore brought love out into the open at the end of OoP. I've also talked about Harry's emerging bond towards all the people around him, the ones who are beginning to follow him. Why do you make sense? As far as Harry goes, if he survives ? and I think he will ? he's going to be damaged goods for at least a while. He's going to be beat to hell before it's done, he will have seen people he loves die, and he will not be in the mood for wooing for a while at least. The other main characters will also have been through a lot (again, the ones who live though it at all). Love and long term relationships are very tough after experiences like that. But that's in the future, and in the meantime we debate romance. Besides, like I said at the top, we enjoy it. Jim Ferer From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 02:57:29 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 02:57:29 -0000 Subject: What about Snape (Was: HP and the Half Blood Git) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106118 Adan, with the realization just dawning that I don't know WHAT I'd want for Snape. My favorite character and I just have no clue. > Weird. Carol responds: I'm assuming, first, that you want him to live rather than die redeeming himself, which I think half the list anticipates as his fate. Should he finally receive that Order of Merlin First Class for helping to save Harry and the WW and retire to open his own potions shop in Diagon Alley? Stay on as Potions professor and Head of Slytherin, possibly promoted to assistant headmaster when McGonagall becomes headmistress after Dumbledore dies? Finally receive the DADA post now that there's no longer a war or any chance of rejoining Voldemort and he no longer has to favor the Slytherins or put up with Harry? Marry Florence and have twins? (That last one's a joke, everyone!) If, of course, he turns out to be evil, we won't have to worry about his fate. He'd die unredeemed. But if he's a good guy, and if he survives, can anyone think of any other options, or any reasons why one of my suggestions is more likely than the others? I personally think that he shouldn't have to put up with "dunderheads," or they with him, and I think his services to Dumbledore deserve more recognition than they'll ever receive, by their very nature. I very much fear that both he and Percy will pull a Boromir and die redeemed. But I'd rather that Percy saw the light and Snape received the respect he craves and both of them lived. Carol, fully aware that there's nothing canonical about this post but hoping that others will have suggestions for Adan From dk59us at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 03:14:41 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 03:14:41 -0000 Subject: Rethinking Ron from several angles. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106119 Steve wrote: > Prefect Qualifications- > > For the moment, let's not compare Ron to Harry, how about if we > compare Ron's qualification to Seamus's? What has Seamus ever done? > How has he ever distinguished himself in any way? When has he ever > shown that he has what it takes to function in a crisis, and take > initiative under extreme pressure? He hasn't. He hasn't demonstrated > any skills or taken any initiative to suggest that he could be a > good Prefect. Eustace_Scrubb: Just one small comment on a post that I almost completely agree with. The only caveat I would have on this comparison is that we really don't know much about what Seamus or Dean may or may not have done to deserve being appointed prefect, because Harry doesn't hang with them as much as he does with Ron and Hermione. And since the books are written from Harry's point of view, that colors our vision rather a lot. And to be fair, most of the students are a lot less aware of what either Harry or Ron may have done to be worthy of prefecture than we are as readers. Certainly Harry would never select Seamus or Dean over Ron and so we as readers aren't apt to either. I certainly know that Ron was the better choice after Seamus and Harry have their spat in OoTP. Now, Dumbledore undoubtedly knows more about all of them than they know about themselves. And he probably made a wise choice in this case, although he has admitted to making foolish mistakes in the past in an effort to make Harry's life less burdensome--and he chose Ron in part because he felt Harry "had rather enough to be going on with" (is that quote right?) already. Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From Batchevra at aol.com Wed Jul 14 03:19:28 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 23:19:28 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: James the Berk? Message-ID: <8a.f938c8f.2e260040@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106120 In a message dated 7/13/04 9:59:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com writes: >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Batchevra at a... wrote: > > I think Dumbledore did have a stronger case in that Snape was out of bounds > of the school, the teachers knew what was going on, and probably did know that > Sirius, James and Peter knew about Lupin being a werewolf and encouraged the > friendship, but didn't know about them being animagi. I mean the portraits and > the ghosts must have overheard their conversations and kept Dumbledore > informed but since the Shrieking shack was off campus, didn't know the whole story. > We're talking about slightly different things, I think. DD is Headmaster; within limits he can do or order done whatever he likes so long as no-one from outside the school interferes. Here his hand is strong. But Snape has information that would interest some very powerful and influential people *outside* the school. He can bring the whole lot down on DD's head by just saying one word - "Werewolf" - in the right place. The outcry from parents would be such that the Board of Govenors wouldn't even bother to vote. DD would be out. Do you really think he doesn't know this? Kneasy< Dumbledore probably had something on Snape that kept him quiet. I think that a headmaster of a school that has all students that can do magic, hex each other has to have a way of knowing who would be trouble and who would be just mischievous. I think Dumbledore learns about each of the students and keeps a close eye on the ones who might give trouble. I think he was able to head off Snape in that way. I agree that Snape could have gotten Lupin out of Hogwarts and did later on, but as a student he was not able to do it. I will enjoy getting more information about the Prank in the upcoming books. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 03:24:27 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 03:24:27 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle in CoS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106121 Adan wrote: I have a hard time picturing Lucius sitting on his bed scribbling away in the diary. Just not a very manly thing. I've always thought diaries were rather a "girly" thing, and therefore see how giving the diary specifically to Ginny could have been the plan because there was a chance that she would use it. Give it to Ron and I wonder if it'd even have made it to Hogwarts. I see it thrown in the back of his closet. Adan, who never bothered with a diary anyway. Carol responds: Maybe JKR should have called it a journal--a lot of highly renowned men, many of them British, have kept journals. That aside, though, Lucius wouldn't be scribbling in a diary like little Ginny, or even secretly recording amorous liasons with Bellatrix. He'd have known that it was Tom Riddle's diary, and his reason for writing in the diary (if indeed he did) would have been to discover its secrets. As I suggested in another post, he may even have communicated with Diary!Tom and hatched a plan with him for infiltrating Hogwarts. The decision to give the diary to Ginny in an attempt to disgrace the Weasleys was undoubtedly Lucius'. The ultimate goal of reviving Voldemort via Tom would have been Tom's. Whether he would share such a plan with the wily Lucius is open to debate. Tom wouldn't know him personally (Lucius is a generation younger), but he could judge his character based on the revelations that he's a fellow Slytherin and one of Voldemort's Death Eaters, and Lucius could provide him with information regarding his own future that he could never get from Ginny. That might be enough to persuade Tom to reveal his true intentions. Carol, who is not arguing that Lucius did write in the diary, only suggesting that it's feasible From greatelderone at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 03:37:42 2004 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 03:37:42 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106122 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > Del replies : > Those are consequences of his being poor, aren't they ? And stating > that you don't like hand-me-downs doesn't make you whiny. GEO: No it's the fact that he actually complains about it. Ever heard about grinning and bearing it, complaining isn't going to change anything. > Other fact of the matter : Harry doesn't hold an exclusivity on > suffering !! Yes, he suffers like mad, but this is no reason to > dismiss anyone else's suffering. Just because A has a broken bone > doesn't mean B should not let his twisted ankle hurt him. Yes A will > have the priority at the ER, but the doctors won't send B back home > without treating him either, even though he's got nothing broken. GEO: No it's more like a twisted ankle. Point of the matter is compared to Harry, he has nothing to complain about. > Technically, at age 11, Ron was not a teenager. And anyway, I fail to > miss your point : we should dismiss Ron's insecurities just because > he's a teenager and all teenagers are insecure, is that it ? GEO: Yes, it's a phase for them imo. > Careerwise ? What's that got to do with anything ? I'm talking > emotional health here, and we know of at least one brother who's > obviously unbalanced. GEO: Who? Except for Percy walking away from his family, I don't see anything wrong with any of the family. They're normal as it is in the wizard world that Rowling created. From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 03:36:38 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 03:36:38 -0000 Subject: Prefects and points In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106123 Arya wrote: I know, I know but I guess I mean I think it's a bit ludicris that people seem to root for other characters *more* than Harry. Of course it happens, but remember how JKR expressed surprise and a little concern for the sanity (perhaps) of those who root for the Slytherins? I think she's surprised there are those rooting for "the bad guys". I don't think it's the "loyalties" she's intended the readers to have. Sure, it is because the books have taken on a life of their own--that's an excellent point--but it's dangerous (meaning, I think it risks disappointment) to root for someone or anyone who is not the protagonist. vmonte responds: What? Who are you tell people that they are being ludicrous because they root for other characters?! I can root for all three if I want to! JKR expressed surprise and concern for the fans that root and feel drawn to Slytherin house because Slytherin's are racist slime (for the most part). What in the world does Slytherin have to do with Ron? Sorry, but you are not reading the books carefully. There is a lot of foreshadowing going on with Ron. I agree with Del & Jem that Ron will surprise us in the end. You seem to think that we are saying that we think Ron is going to steal Harry's thunder, but we are not. The three friends are all important to the story and we can root for all three if we want to. vmonte From nightmasque at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 00:55:22 2004 From: nightmasque at yahoo.com (Feng Zengkun) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:55:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wouldn't muggle born wizards have more incentive than pure bloods and therefore be more powerful? In-Reply-To: <20040713180105.33270.qmail@web13521.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040714005522.24292.qmail@web52605.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106124 Hey everyone I'm Zengkun posting for the first time. ~Mo wrote: >If you were muggle born, someone came >along and told you that you were a wizard and had >magical powers and were going to a wizarding school, >wouldn't you be overwhelmed and excited and eager to >try out this new found magic you never knew you had. >Versus - if you were born into a wizarding family, >magic is just a part of everyday life, so there is no >EXTRA incentive to try really hard. (I am not saying >that pure bloodswouldn't try hard at all.) I kind of saw it a different way. Muggleborns would not have the same vested interest in keeping the wizarding world safe as purebloods. I mean, I would imagine that purebloods would fight harder, considering that magic is, as you say, a part of their everyday life. For them the loss/oppression of magic would be losing something thay've had and known all their life, like going blind. whereas for muggleborns they've known a life without magic anyway, so - bad analogy, but - it'd be like losing a shiny toy that they liked - sad but not terribly important. Harry is an exception, of course, but then I suspect most other muggle families aren't quite as horrible as the Dursleys. From aandj at labyrinth.net.au Wed Jul 14 01:01:06 2004 From: aandj at labyrinth.net.au (Jocelyn Grunow) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:01:06 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Prefects and points In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106125 > Arya wrote : >> Ron's choice, I think, is yet to come I think really you are saying that Ron has yet to fail his tests. He has made many choices, and pretty much each one has led him to stay loyal and to succeed. Because that is who he is. Jocelyn From silvr23dragon at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 01:27:33 2004 From: silvr23dragon at yahoo.com (Mary Olearchik) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:27:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wouldn't muggle born wizards have more incentive than pure bloods and therefore be more powerful? In-Reply-To: <20040713180105.33270.qmail@web13521.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040714012733.59023.qmail@web42002.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106126 Mo wrote: > My theory is that muggle borns are actually more > powerful than Pure Bloods because of incentive- > i.e. Hermione, and Harry (because he lived with > Muggles) etc. and will help conquer LV again. > > Obviously, this won't fit with every wizard, but > what do you think about the theory? Actually I think you have a very good point. In the first book (sorry I don't have it with me) I recall reading that both Harry and Hermoine are very eager to prove themselves (Hermoine proving she isn't a dunderhead sticks in my mind). Both start to become very powerful as we all know. As for the purebloods, I think you also have a point. It isn't that they don't try, they just have less motivation than muggleborns, I mean you don't see Malfoy working very hard. Of course there are exceptions, Neville. As for defeating LV, I also think that they will be instrumental in his fall, and not just those two, but many muggleborn and halfbloods out there, as well as some purebloods who don't care around blood relations. How they could all work together to beat him...I need to ponder some more. SilverD From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 04:12:13 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 04:12:13 -0000 Subject: Ron (was Hermione's Reaction to... ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106127 Del wrote: Maybe JKR simply doesn't like people like Ron, so she doesn't like him, but I do. In that case, it would be similar to what happens in RL when two people discuss someone else of whom they have different opinions : they simply don't see that person in the same way. It could explain why she said that Ron alone didn't know the Prefect rules, when Ernie, Draco and Hermione didn't know any better : because she doesn't like him. vmonte responds: Del, JKR does like Ron. His character is based on JKR's best friend! Anyway, her comment about Ron is pretty harmless. So what if he doesn't know rules. Ron, Harry, and now Hermione are not the kind of kids who follow rules anyways. Just look at what a stickler Snape is with rules, and his character has shown no emotional growth through out books 1-5 IMO. You miss a lot in life if you only follow the straight and narrow path. Sometimes the scenic route is better, even if it takes you a little longer to get to your destination. At this point in time Ron is just a kid who is trying to find his own way. Now that Fred & George are gone from school, and the war is begining, he will come into his own. Besides, JKR may not want fans to focus too much attention on Ron because she wants to surprise us in book 6 and 7. vivian From dontask2much at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 01:53:08 2004 From: dontask2much at yahoo.com (charme) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:53:08 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Magic later in life References: Message-ID: <020301c46945$5125fb00$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> No: HPFGUIDX 106128 Dicentra wrote: > Q: Will there be, or have there been, any "late blooming" students in > the school who come into their magic potential as adults, rather than > as children? > > A: No, is the answer. In my books, magic almost always shows itself in > a person before age 11; however, there is a character who does manage > in desperate circumstances to do magic quite late in life, but that is > very rare in the world I am writing about. Charme (who is glad Dicentra found it): I am hedging my bets that the person who finds that magic later in life is Petunia. Petunia intrigues me after references in OoP to her unnaturally clean house, and also that she really does appear to know Voldemorts's name as well as the impact he could have on the WW. I note that in PS/SS, Petunia just says that her sister got herself "blown up" - how did she know that? Furthermore, her reaction to the news that Voldemort is back is a little more than just surprise, wouldn't you say? Something that happens will shock it out of her; as JK Rowling states it will happen in "desperate circumstances." I'm convinced it's her :) Charme From dontask2much at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 02:16:30 2004 From: dontask2much at yahoo.com (charme) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:16:30 -0400 Subject: How did Sirius lure Severus into the Willow? (was: James the Berk?) References: Message-ID: <021001c46948$9414a800$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> No: HPFGUIDX 106129 Kneasy said: > Hell, this current thread about Florence - kissing Snape? Huh. I had > 'em married with a kid - that's the "crying child" memory of Snape's. > There's very little in the way of consensus that I won't pervert given > a chance, but I do like at least a toe-hold in canon to start the theory > off. When posters speculate about the use of spells that have never been > mentioned in the books, just to clear up an awkward point, or invent > 'past events' to explain relationships or situations, then I start to > shift uneasily in my chair. Charme: Least you admit your perversions. :) I actually had Florence kissing James, simply because of the reference in canon that whomever it was put a "hex" on her. James, in OoP canon, was always running around putting a "hex on everyone who annoyed" him, and he appeared to be always checking out the girls. Kinda leaves out the getting married and having a kid though, doesn't it? I almost like yours better... ;) charme From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 04:19:36 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 04:19:36 -0000 Subject: Prefects and points In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106130 Del replies : I never found any great fun in championing the obvious hero. He already has tons of fans, and he's the author's favourite anyway. So ever since I was a very little girl, I found myself attracted to the underdog, and quite often repelled by the so-obvious-hero-who-has-all-the-qualities. The underdog is the one who has the real choice : remain an underdog or reach for the glory. The hero, as you said concerning Harry, often has little choice but to be a hero. Booooring. Unless he starts as an underdog (a real one, not like Harry, who was a Prophesied Hero in disguise). vmonte replies: I just recently saw the Lord of the Rings movie and thought that the character of Sam was more the "true" hero. The other character, the lead, would have never made it to the end if it wasn't for the loyalty and bravery of his best friend. That's my opinion!!! vivian From dontask2much at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 02:34:11 2004 From: dontask2much at yahoo.com (charme) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:34:11 -0400 Subject: HP and the Half Blood Git References: Message-ID: <022301c4694b$0c8e1bc0$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> No: HPFGUIDX 106132 "staceymateo" > New poster here! Hi all! And with the formalities out of the way... > > I think that the little things that Snape does to help Harry are a > little more in line with the "true" Snape. In PS/SS, he saves Harry > from Quirrell in the Quidditch match. In OotP, he is the one who > contacts the Order to inform them of the action at the Ministry. I > don't doubt that Snape is transferring some of his anger toward James > onto Harry, but at the same time, I think he is also watching out for > Harry. His actions in noticing everything that Harry does notes that > he pays attention to Harry. > > Snape goes out of his way to "watch" Harry and know everything he is > doing. I really don't think it is accidental that Snape is always > the one to barely miss catching Harry and co. in some misdeed. Charme: While I agrees he's watching out for Harry in his own twisted way, I also think Severus is watching out for his own sexy robe-covered backside. :) Phineas Nigellus tells Harry (when he's about to run away from #12 after the snakebite/Arthur Weasly/DoM incident) that Slytherins, given the choice, will always choose to save their own necks and I don't think Snape is any exception to that rule. For example, in OoP when one of the Occulmency lessons with Snape results in Harry getting a better view of the rooms at the DoM, Snape is more angry with him about that than the prior exercise when Harry saw Snape's memories of his childhood (the hooked nosed man screaming at woman while a child cowers in the corner, Snape shooting flies in his bedroom, etc.) Why? Well, there's a lot of concern within the Order and DD that perhaps Harry's mind can be compromised "at the moment" by Voldemort. I don't think Snapey-poo wants his Dark Lord really knowing what he's doing, does he? :) charme From susanarb at ourwest.com Wed Jul 14 03:43:39 2004 From: susanarb at ourwest.com (Susan Arb) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 03:43:39 -0000 Subject: Lily's Eyes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106133 Don't you think that something must happen in Book 6 or 7 about Harry having his mother's eyes? JKR hits us over the head with this observation several times in the first few books -- every time someone who knew Lily meets Harry -- but it remains undeveloped. JKR has also mentioned Switching spells several times, without much description and certainly without having Switching spells playing a part in any plot. I'm thinking that Book 6 or 7 may have Harry as the subject of a Switching spell -- maybe someone will take over his body, or take the form of his body without inhabiting Harry's actual body. Suppose that the ploy doesn't work though, because whoever tries (Voldemort? Bellatrix? Malfoy?) can't duplicate Lily's eyes? I also hope that Fred and George continue making us laugh. I agree with Harry -- we need the laughter. Susan From Wolfie_Musician at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 03:27:32 2004 From: Wolfie_Musician at yahoo.com (Wolfie_Musician at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 03:27:32 -0000 Subject: JK's mention of hints in CS....??? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106134 JK Rowling said in the interviews for the CS movie that something small in the Chamber of Secrets would become important later on. Thus, I've been diving into CS looking for something, anything, and I've found 2 things: WHY (and I'm surprised I haven't seen people ask this on popular forums, like the Harry Potter Lexicon) oh WHY, after Harry 'found out' from the diary why Hagrid was expelled and went to go see him, why did Hagrid answer his door with crossbow in hand? Who could he have been expecting that would require shooting? Envoys from the Ministry of Magic, coming to take him away? Aurors? Please. Also, this is just a random thought because it seemed kind of pointless, and with good ol' Jo, causes suspicion: Could it possibly be important that Filch is a squib? Is he more important than a hallway moniter? Who exactly is he? Wolfie_Musician From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed Jul 14 04:45:15 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 00:45:15 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (i... Message-ID: <11b.3459c088.2e26145b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106135 In a message dated 07/13/2004 4:59:21 PM Central Daylight Time, srobles at caribe.net writes: > The problems seems to be that Hermione beat him, not that anybody > else did. Plus, Draco is ambitious to say the least, and ambitious > people tend to work hard to achieve what they want... well, they > either work or they bribe, and since I don't believe any of the > Hogwart's teachers are open to bribery (including Snape), I believe > that Draco works hard in his studies (albeit for the wrong reasons). > > Anasazi > > You know I got the exact opposite impression from those passages. Especially the bit about only being fit for thievery if his grades didn't improve. That seems to imply that Hermione wasn't the only person beating him grade-wise. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 04:53:01 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 04:53:01 -0000 Subject: Unappreciated Weasleys (was: Prefects and points) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106136 Thanks to Del and several other members that recently brought up something that has been bothering me too: JKR insulting treatment of Ron. Is he just a comic relief? IMO the problem is actually slightly different: In OotP Ron actually DOES many worthy things, only they are very well hidden. Also I'd like to point out that this pattern (minus the comic relief) is also common to his sister Ginny. I'll start with Ginny, because she's the one who set this pattern almost from the beginning of the saga. In CoS, the 11 yrs old Ginny had spent almost a whole year possessed by Diary!Riddle. What did she have to go through? We don't really know. Depending on your imagination, this could easily be worse than anything Harry had to go through in five books. My point is exactly that: we don't know. After CoS it is never even mentioned. Not a word. To be exact, in OotP Harry finally admits "I forgot" and stiff-upper-lip-Ginny answers with two words: "lucky you". I have to admit, until reading this "lucky you" I also forgot. During three years, Ginny is the classic waiting lover. She sits and waits for her hero to notice her. Nothing special about it, of course. This has been the fate of many romantic heroines. But JKR has an original twist: the one-sided romance is described (if you can call it that) from the point-of-view of the oblivious hero. And he's oblivious all right. Three years of yearning and heartache go almost unnoticed and unmentioned. One begins to wonder why they are there at all. In GoF, the unnoticed Ginny gets an opportunity that in any self- respecting roman would have earned her at least a chapter of undiluted teen anguish: She is unexpectedly asked to go to the Yule Ball with her hero, and she turns it down because she had already said she would go with, of all people, Neville. You'd think that Harry would acknowledge, for one whole second at least, that Ginny had just made a noble sacrifice. He doesn't. The jiggling Parvati and Lavender have just entered the common room, and Ginny's deed is forgotten forever. Back to Ron. In OotP, Ron seems to catch his sister's virus for doing anything heroic or worthy off page. In fact, they often do these worthy things together in the same off-page. Remember how in PoA we all cheered for Harry on his trusty Firebolt finally winning the quidditch cup after a heroic match? In OotP, Ron and Ginny do that without quidditch-star Harry, without a Firebolt, and without Captain Wood and the Amazing Twins either. Ron pulls nobody-knows-how-many glorious saves, and then Ginny takes the snitch right from under the nose of (oh, sweet revenge!) Cho Chang. But do we get to watch this? Do we get to hear Lee Jordan beside himself with admiration? No we don't. Mr Point-Of-View had to go with Miss Perfect to the forbidden forest. But we do get to see Ron letting in that first and only goal. Then we are back to the forest. Hermione as usual takes center stage as she and Harry are off again with Umbridge, a giant and a herd of mad centaurs. But now they are stuck, alone and wandless in the middle of the Forbidden Forest. And whom to the rescue? Ron and Co. How did they manage to track and find H&H in the forest? We're not told. How did they get over the entire Inquisitorial Squad? "Couple of Stunners, a Disarming Charm" says Ron airily as he returns their wands. Funny how he, who is frequently accused of greedily licking the scraps of Harry's fame, hardly takes any credit to himself. He does mention Neville bringing in a nice Impedimente and his sister taking down Draco with a royal bat bogie jinx, but this is still off page. In the movie it probably won't even be a deleted scene. All they did, after all, was flattening a roomful of Slytherins without sustaining a single hit. And how did they manage to get their wands back in the first place? They were well immobilized when we left them in Umbridge's office. Was it some clever ploy of Ron or Ginny? We'll probably never find out. Then we get to the great battle in the DoM. Somehow by pure coincidence (yeah right) Harry goes one direction with Hermione and Neville, while Ron and Ginny run the other direction with Luna. So again we get to read a detailed description of Hermione's courage and resourcefulness (I don't even bother to count how many times she and Harry save each other's life) as well as her noble conduct ("you can't hurt a baby!"). Then Hermione is injured and Harry is frantic. Don't let her be dead! And what were Ron, Ginny and Luna doing during all that time? Well, they were apparently doing a lot, fighting several DEs and getting hurt and probably saving each other's lives several times over, but WE DON'T GET TO SEE IT. All we get is Luna's sketchy report. Turns out they were fighting the DEs in zero gravity, in the dark, in a giant moving model of the solar system. Wow! This could have been the grandest action scene in OotP, and what do we ever hear about it? "I reducto Pluto in his face". Not exactly detailed. And even that much we get from Luna. The injured Ginny is the usual stiff-upper-lip (she clearly has too many brothers and too few sisters. Someone should explain to her that the strong-and-silent thing is for guys). Ron is even worse. Instead of getting hit with something heroically looking, such as a bleeding shoulder wound, or something that will leave an interesting scar on his forehead, he gets hit with something that makes him tell rude jokes and do stupid things. How appropriate. OK, I think there is definitely a pattern here. If JKR doesn't think much of Ron and Ginny, why does she make them do and go through all these things? But if she does think highly of them, why does everything heroic they do goes almost unnoticed? Does she prepare us for something? And what could that be? Neri From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 05:13:01 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 05:13:01 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106137 Alla wrote: Now, if we will learn that pensieve is subjective Del replied: We have no proof that a Pensieve memory is objective, but I would be *thoroughly* disappointed to learn that it isn't, because it would *undermine* the whole point of the Pensieve IMO. DD explained that he puts his memories in the Pensieve in order to help himself find patterns and links he couldn't find otherwise. But if those memories are flawed because subjective to start with, then how can he expect to make anything worthwhile out of them ? In my idea, the whole point of putting them outside of his own head is precisely that it's easier to observe them rationally this way, with an outsider's view, in other words : objectively. Carol adds: Exactly. I see no evidence whatever for subjectivity in the Pensieve memories, and, as Del says, no point in studying them if they're not objective. And again, if the memories were subjective, Harry would be inside Snape's or Dumbledore's mind, aware of their thoughts, feeling their feelings, as happens when he's inside the snake, or when he's aware of Frank Bryce's thoughts and feelings in the first chapter of GoF. (That one throws me--I can't think of any explanation for how Harry got there--unless it's the narrator's POV and not Harry's, but I don't want to go off track here.) But, as I've said repeatedly, Harry can move around in thePensieve memories--see, hear and feel things that the owner of the memory could not, but he can't see exactly what that person is seeing or feel what he's feeling. IMO, while they're in the person's mind, they're subjective because of their context--that person's life history, predispositions, and prejudices (we all have them, even Dumbledore). Once the memory is removed and placed in the magical context of the Pensieve, it's expanded to include things that really happened but that the owner of the memory didn't see or hear--like the Marauders' conversation while Severus is immersed in the exam questions. Alla wrote: If Lily started hexing Snape after that scene, that I would understand really well. (No, that was not JUST A NAME, that Snape called her. To me, it indicates what kind of views that person holds. And, NO, there are some views ,which even though person is allowed to have, the person is not allowed to say them to other people, not just act on them) Del replied: In my idea, *saying* the word is already *acting* on the racist belief. A thought, a belief, a wish, all those are not real actions. But a word is. A lesser kind of action maybe, but an action nonetheless. Carol responds: First, Alla, I think it's wonderful to see you agreeing with Del and defending the young Snape even though you like Sirius (and James?) better. Great job, both of you, on this thread. Now, at the risk of having "Stupefy!" and "Silencio!" hurled at me, I'm going to propose that perhaps we're making more than we ought to of "Mudblood" by calling it "racist." What it indicates is not really quite equivalent to, say, the old U.S. Southern prejudice once held by many whites against blacks. On one level, it's more like an awareness of the presence or absence of royal blood; the purebloods see themselves as a kind of natural aristocracy which shouldn't intermarry with commoners (Muggleborns, and possibly half-bloods). It's not really a matter of "race" even though it certainly involves "blood." On another level, the prejudice isn't against "race" or even "blood"; it's against Muggles, nonmagical people, whom the purebloods in general and the Slytherins in particular have been taught to view as inherently inferior, having to resort to "eckeltricity" because they have no magical ability. It's more akin to the prejudice against giants (and may have some basis in the treatment of witches and wizards by Muggles during the Middle Ages, just as the prejudice against giants has a basis in the giants' propensity to violence against even their own kind). Even Ron, as far from a Slytherin as you can find in these books, thinks Muggles are funny and laughs at the idea of sliding down a snowy hill on pieces of wood (skis). I think a lot of people on this list are bringing in what amounts to an alien perspective, that of postmodern Muggles who have been, for lack of a better word, "indoctrinated" with the idea that "intolerance" is evil and not to be, erm, tolerated. I don't think any pureblood wizard would really understand that idea, any more than they would understand our ideas about what constitutes acceptable educational practices. (Can anyone imagine a modern school system tolerating a living Professor Binns?) Yes, James sees the word "Mudblood" as an insult to Lily ("mudblood" equals "dirty blood"), but I don't think he sees it as "racist," any more than he would regard "bit**" as "sexist," though he presumably would have been incensed if Severus had used it against Lily. Granted, James, unlike Severus, doesn't mind the fact that Lily is a Muggleborn, but if she were a Muggle like her sister Petunia, would he even be interested in her? It's the fact that she's a powerful witch (as well as a pretty one) that intrigues him. And I can't imagine Sirius marrying a Muggle, either, assuming that he'd had the opportunity to live a normal life. And yet that prejudice against Muggles (as opposed to Muggleborns) is apparent throughout the WW, and no one regards "Muggle" as a mortal insult or a racist term. The word "racist" doesn't even occur in the books. It's imported from our perspective to their world. "They're not like us; they're not magical": I think that's the usual (but obviously not the only) view of Muggles in the WW. And in the case of certain pureblood families, it's been extended from Muggles to their Muggleborn children, who are seen as interlopers from a different and inferior world. It's the view that Severus and Lucius and Draco were taught from birth, and I'm not sure we can fairly blame them for holding it. (Draco can be blamed for using it to deliberately insult Hermione, but Severus is expressing it under extreme circumstances of stress and humiliation. Sirius under similar circumstances might use objectionable language, too. And how is the word any worse than the implications of "scourgify," used to imply that Severus is dirty?) Please don't send any viruses to my computer if you disagree with me! I just think that "racist" is the wrong word in this context and arouses emotions that really aren't quite appropriate to the situation. Surely a perspective of intolerance should include tolerance for values that differ from our own, even when we're absolutely certain those values are wrong? It's not as if the Slytherins were in favor of burning the Muggleborn students. It's only when the prejudice reaches the level of Muggle baiting that we see in GoF, suggesting something far more sinister while Voldemort was active during VWI, or Tom Riddle's murderous loosing of the basilisk, that it passes beyond regrettable and becomes reprehensible. Carol, hoping for calm and rational responses (or none) :-) From n2fgc at arrl.net Wed Jul 14 05:19:42 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 01:19:42 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Unappreciated Weasleys (was: Prefects and points) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106138 | From: nkafkafi | Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 00:53 [Lee here]: Neri, I loved your post. There is only one little thing I must disagree with...Just one. :) You wrote: | The injured Ginny is | the usual stiff-upper-lip (she clearly has too many brothers and too | few sisters. Someone should explain to her that the strong-and-silent | thing is for guys). [Lee]: Hmm--I think it all depends on the personality. I've seen guys cry and women be stoic as well as the other way around. Honestly, I tend toward the stoic type of reaction. Going back to my Battlestar Galactica fandom, I used to find the character of Sheba, a female warrior pilot, very annoying. I saw her as whiny and tearful which, to me, had no place in what she was supposed to be doing. Sure, she got shot down, but IMO, grit your teeth and do all you can to save yourself. So, a Stiff-upper-lip Ginny appeals to me. She knew that cracking in the DOM under those circumstances was not going to help anyone, least of all herself. She would have her chance to cry later...when it's all over and she can take time to absorb the enormity of the whole experience. That's sorta the way I react...keep together during the crisis, fall apart when all's said and done and I can sit with my chocolate and tears in private or with someone I know will understand. Personally, I do think they're being groomed for something extraordinary in the next two books. I think JKR thinks very highly of them and is using them to help Harry quietly, perhaps, at this point, but they will, no doubt, serve an integral purpose before it's all over. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me; | n2fgc at arrl.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From sherriola at earthlink.net Wed Jul 14 05:58:08 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 23:58:08 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Prefects and points In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001001c46967$89f55080$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 106139 Arya wrote : > we readers need to regain some perspective. Del replies : Perspective ? But *you* are the one who can't detach yourself from Harry ! You are at least as prejudiced in favour of Harry than I am in favour of Ron. All you can see is Harry, Harry, Harry. I can see many other people : Ron, Hermione, Neville, Draco, Lupin, and others, and find them just as fascinating, interesting and for some of them heroic as Harry, if not more. Just because JKR put the light on Harry and Harry happens to play a role nobody else could play in the war (and the war isn't everything) doesn't mean Harry is the only interesting or heroic character, far from it ! Del sherry now Well, i've been trying to figure out a way to get into this discussion, and del has brought up most of the points I want to make and argued them so eloquently. I'd like to add a little here. JKR obviously wants the readers to take an interest in other characters besides Harry. If not, she wouldn't make them so interesting. She could make them boring somewhat featureless people. Instead, she gave us fun, brave, cowardly, malicious, tormented, complex characters. That's why there's always such interest in Snape and Sirius, because they are complex and we know so little of them. Sure, Harry is the main character, but he couldn't have done any of the things he's done without the others. All have contributed to his deeds in some way. That's why they are in the books. I think Ron's willingness to enter the forest and go find the spiders was an incredible act of bravery. My worst fear happens to be fire--my dad was a fire fighter while I was growing up--and I don't know if I'd be brave enough to go into one to help a friend. I hope I never have to make that choice. Yet, though Ron was obviously terrified, he went. Have we ever seen Hermione have to make such a choice? We don't really know what frightens her beyond getting bad grades or failure. I think it's possible that JKR could be fooling us by trying to show Ron as the side kick, humorous not so important person. After all, if she truly based him on her best friend, she is not going to have him be nothing but a side kick. If I even loosely based a character on my best friend, that character would find its way, somehow. I don't think Ron needs to be a super hero--we already have that in Harry--but he needs and will find himself, and the direction he needs to follow in life to find fulfillment. Of course, he'll only be 17 at the end, but I think he's getting a good start. Prefect, Quidditch, and now, at last, all his brothers are out of school, and he can be Ron, himself, not anybody's brother. Sorry, I'm not making my feelings as clear as I'd like. I like Harry. But I don't think that liking Harry means I can't like and support and hope for good things in the lives of other characters. I never read any book that way, because the supporting cast can be just as interesting as the protagonist. And I agree with the comment Serenadust made with her signature to her post: Ron is Harry's favorite character. For Harry right now, his best friend is Ron, he depends on him and wants his companionship and support, even more than Hermione's. I don't want to be so quick to throw away the first and best friend Harry ever had. In fact, I should be so lucky to have a friend like that! Harry is fortunate to have two extraordinary friends, and at least, he seems to appreciate that fact. Sherry G From paul_terzis at yahoo.gr Wed Jul 14 05:58:03 2004 From: paul_terzis at yahoo.gr (paul_terzis) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 05:58:03 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106140 > > Jen wrote: > > While it is HP's odyssey, Ananzi pointed out that there is terrific > pressure on Harry, that he's in no way shape or form normal and that > he has very little normalcy in his future. It seems inherent in the > human spirit (and the writers of this list) to hope for some aspect > of a normal life for Harry and all other mythic sojourners. Hence, > all the glorious shipping we are doing. Very likely, we may never > see Harry have a girlfriend. Doesn't seem like there is much time or > opportunity left but forgive us if we digress into such a mundane > exercise as speculating on Harry's so-called love life. It's just us > hoping someday he comes out of all this alive. > Dear Jen it was not my intention to reprimand or to offend. I am sorry if it looks like that. I hope that eventually HP will gain back his life. That he will live happily ever after with the woman of his dreams. I am a shipper also but the thing is that we all repeat the same points over and over the last months. I don't exclude myself from this. It is not a bad thing to speculate or to analyse. But honestly we reach the point to count the points that gained our ship champion over the other like a boxing match!!! Not to mention that lately we have as an arguement for our ship that loosing the girl from the other is not fair or a mistreatment!!! Can you blame me for the outburst? With the best regards for every member of this Group, Paul From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 06:09:29 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 06:09:29 -0000 Subject: Bertha, Florence, Frank, Alice, Bella, Rudolphus... and Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106141 Neri wrote: I've just found the canon proof that Bellatrix is older than Sirius by 2 years. How, oh how could I miss it before??? Here it is: Sooooo. Sirius didn't see Bella since he was 15, Harry's age in OotP. That is, when Sirius was 15 (Year 5) it was Bella's last year in Hogwarts. And Sirius is very specific about it. He doesn't mean he didn't see her at the Black's house. He means he didn't see her even at Hogwarts, because he includes even "a glimpse" in Azkaban as a single exception. So we already have: Canon (1): Bella is two years older than the marauders, Lily and Snape. Carol responds: I've posted on this topic before at least twice--no doubt you skipped the thread or overlooked the information because my posts tend to be long. :-) In any case, I agree with you except that I interpret the age difference as *three* years. Harry is just *barely* fifteen. He's just completed his fourth year and is about to enter his fifth. If Sirius was the same age when he last saw Bellatrix, it would have been at the end of her seventh year, when she finished school, at the time Sirius finished his fourth--not his fifth, when he would be sixteen or about to turn sixteen. (Harry doesn't reach that point until the *end* of OoP, about nine months after the scene you're referring to.) So Bellatrix would be seventeen or eighteen when she left school; Sirius barely fifteen or about to turn fifteen. That's a three-year difference, not two (for the other Marauders and Severus as well as Sirius). Otherwise, I agree with you. I've always thought that Severus was the youngest member of the gang, "adopted" because of his precocity in casting hexes. It stands to reason that Rodolphus is a little older than Bellatrix, and Rabastan, who appears to be part of a threesome with his brother and future sister-in-law, is probably Bellatrix's age, though of course I'm guessing here. I also think that Lucius Malfoy, five years older than Severus and presumably a sixth year when Severus entered Hogwarts, was the original leader of this gang, just as he's the leader at the MoM (with Bellatrix an unofficial second in command, at least in her own view). It all fits with the idea that Severus was the youngest member of the "gang of Slytherins," all of whom had finished school by the time of the Pensieve incident, which explains why he was alone when James and Sirius confronted him at the end of their fifth year. And it ties in, too, with Snape as Malfoy's "lap dog." When did Sirius see them together? At Hogwarts, when Severus was a child and Lucius was a teenager. What does "lap dog" mean? Little pet. The "baby" of the gang. So I agree with you that the members of the gang were all older than Severus and that one of the older boys was more likely than he to be the one who kissed Florence and hexed Bertha. (Unless Sevvie was precocious in that respect, too, and we have no evidence to indicate that he was.) Seriously, I think Rodolphus is a good candidate, hexing Bertha to make sure she doesn't tell Bellatrix. Or maybe it was the unattached Rabastan. Certainly not the insufferably horrible Walden Macnair, if his adult self is any indication. But where does the idea of Florence as Death Eater come in? I've missed a lot of posts and evidently missed that one. Can you direct me to the right thread? Carol From adanabbett at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 04:11:41 2004 From: adanabbett at yahoo.com (Adan) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 04:11:41 -0000 Subject: Question from the new girl (Lupin as HBP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106142 > The Sergeant Majorette says: > > My vote's for Remus Lupin. Lupin used to be pretty high on my list of HBP possibles, but he moved down a few notches today for the simple fact that he'd played such a large role in Prisoner of Azkaban. He might not have been the "title" character, but he was greatly in evidence. That doesn't mean he isn't the HBP of course, just less likely in my mind. Adan, who realizes that this 'logic' totally shoots Dumbledore down the list, too. Dangit. From oppen at mycns.net Wed Jul 14 06:27:49 2004 From: oppen at mycns.net (ericoppen) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 06:27:49 -0000 Subject: William Gibson knew how to kill Voldemort! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106143 I don't know if any of you (or Herself) has ever read William Gibson's seminal science-fiction short story "Johnny Mnemonic," butin it, I think there is a key to killing Voldemort. At the beginning of the story, the hero/narrator, Johnny, reflects: "If they think you're crude, go technical. If they think you're technical, go crude. I'm a very technical boy, so I went as crude as possible." Substitute "magical" for "technical," and you've got the key. We know that it is possible to prevent magic from working in limited areas---the Anti-Apparition Jinx that D'dore cast at the MoM in OotP, or the similar field that, as Little Miss Smarty-Pants reminds us with great regularity, prevents _anybody_ from Apparating onto or out of Hogwarts property. From this, I can postulate the possibility of somehow or other preventing all magic from working, in a given area. Without magic, what is Voldemort? What are the DEs? They'd be like Muggles whose electricity had suddenly stopped working, wouldn't they? At that moment, Harry, who _is_ familiar with doing things without the benefit of magic, and Muggle-born Hermione, find themselves at an advantage. Without magic, baseball bats, and other instruments of...attitude adjustment...still work just fine. And somehow, I don't think that Voldemort, new body or no, is exactly up on the noble art of self- defense without magic. Matter of fact, the Big V might be weak as a kitten. "There's nothing wrong with you...that I can't fix...with my hands."-- -Frank Miller, in _Batman: The Dark Knight Returns_ From adanabbett at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 04:13:23 2004 From: adanabbett at yahoo.com (Adan) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 04:13:23 -0000 Subject: Who is berk and Slytherin reputation (Diaries) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106144 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > Amey: > > Remember what Ron says anout the diary? "Tom got a diary > > for christmas and couldn't bother writing it." This shows > > a typical boy's POV towards a diary. I am sure TR wouldn't > > have bothered writing a diary had it not been the way to > > instruct his succcessor. > > Del wonders : > Does that mean that Tom *intended* it for a girl to find and > use the Diary ? Or is it just that customs have changed since > Tom's time, when boys maybe wrote more often in diaries ? Honestly, I hadn't given it a whole lot of thought. A completely laughable image of Lucius, his hair in a ponytail and wearing fuzzy bunny slippers while pouring his heart (if he has one) out to his imaginary diary buddy. Just didn't fit. Stereotypical statement on my part, I know. It is true though that I don't know any guys that will *admit* to having had a diary at any point in their lives. HOWEVER, I know of a couple of *artistes* that have/had "journals", which they maintain are completely different. Adan, who lets her friends think that way even if they are fooling themselves From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 06:33:36 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 06:33:36 -0000 Subject: Gnomes In-Reply-To: <018001c46790$f56f9a60$6402a8c0@Pandemonium> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106145 Alora wrote: This may sound really, really stupid, but what good are gnomes? Could they be used in the wizard world somehow, other than to tear up your garden? Alina responded: Erm, why would they have to be useful? There's no law that says every existing magical creature has to be of some use to Wizards, but it sounds like something Umbridge would believe. They're probably the wizarding equivalent of racoons, moles and other pesky garden pests. Carol adds: I was thinking that the Muggle equivalent would be gophers, just as we have dust mites instead of doxies. But I also think the gnomes are a JKR-style joke based on the statues of gnomes that many people in the RW have on their lawns. I think Ron actually says something to that effect, but I don't have the quote handy. If you're not familiar with garden gnomes, check out this site: http://www.kimmelgnomes.com/ Only JKR's version of gnomes, like her merpeople, doesn't seem quite as cute as the popular Muggle conception. Carol From theadimail at yahoo.co.in Wed Jul 14 06:33:20 2004 From: theadimail at yahoo.co.in (theadimail) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 06:33:20 -0000 Subject: Wishes come true Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106146 Hi, All this talk about Ron made me think. In the first book Ron sees himself in the mirror of Erised and he sees that he is the headboy, quidditch captain and winnder of quidditch cup. One of these already has happened. Ron did win the quidditch cup. So is he headed down the Headboy and Captain way? And Harry of course sees his parents in the mirror. Will he get to meet them in some form or is that wish going to remain just that forever-- a wish? Bye Adi From adanabbett at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 04:35:40 2004 From: adanabbett at yahoo.com (Adan) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 04:35:40 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle in CoS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106147 Carol responds: > As I suggested in another post, he may even have communicated > with Diary!Tom and hatched a plan with him for infiltrating > Hogwarts. Adan replies: Hee! I just wrote something about "journals" in another reply. I do agree with you that it is feasible that Lucius wrote in the diary, perhaps hatching the plan as you say (including giving it specifically to Ginny Weasley), especially if he knew exactly what the diary could do. That was originally a reply to the theory that Lucius had informed the diary of what had happened with Voldemort at the Potter safehouse. I think that Diary!Tom learned it all from Ginny. But I do wonder HOW Lucius knew about the diary. Was he in touch with VaporMort? As has been brought up before, did Riddle, or Voldemort, leave some possessions with Malfoy for safekeeping and/or later deployment? As to the giving it to Ginny... I agree that Lucius was taking an opportunity to thwart the muggle-loving and raid-directing Arthur. And, if it was Diary!Tom's plan to be reborn, well, I wonder if it was important *to him* to use a pureblood for that purpose. Wouldn't it have been unfortunate for him to go through all that trouble to live again only to be a muggle-born or half-blood? Adan, who still likes the image of Lucius in bunny slippers From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Wed Jul 14 04:46:28 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 14 Jul 2004 04:46:28 -0000 Subject: Harry & Ron's Chess Game Message-ID: <20040714044628.13294.qmail@webmail31.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106148 - Louis Badalament - But my question is... why? Why does he even *feel* this guilt? - Remember book 2? He killed Tom Riddle easily enough. He was, in - fact, rather proud of the accomplishment, even years later... - No sympathy for the one who killed his godfather, and yet Harry - feels regrets about killing the one who murdered his father and - mother? It's all very weird to me. Amey: I am sure that was in moment of heat. Remember him saying in PoA, that he wants to meet Sirius to kill him, yet when the time came, he couldn?t do it. That is one of the differences between him and LV. He cannot contemplate being a murderer, LV knows about the prophesy and immediately starts planning for the murder. He even takes over Harry?s body in OOtP to make Dumbledore kill Harry. - susanbones2003" - Does anyone want to contribute to the - ONLY IFS list? - Telling Sirius about the Frank Bryce dream. - Telling Dumbledore his dreams in OOTP. Amey: 1. Telling Dumkbledore he is hearing voices in CoS 2. Asking Giny to Yule Ball 3. Asking Cho to Yule Ball first - cmtebb: - - On another note, you don't think Ron will die? I have - been convinced, sadly. This is from The North Tower - and editorial by Maline Freden and mugglenet.com - - "Reason 2: McGonagall's Chess game - "Twice, Ron only just noticed in time that Harry - and Hermione were in danger." Amey: I wonder if the chess game counts as one of the dangers? Anyways, the analysis is really cool, I am surely going to take some time to think more on it, so be sure to read more from me on this point. :D Amey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 04:47:07 2004 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 04:47:07 -0000 Subject: Ron's "poor me" syndrome. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106149 Alla: > Is it a mortal sin for Ron to complain about his poorness? Surely > not, BUT it does get very annoying. I am expecting Ron to put things > in perspective by now. Katie: Ron's minor complaints may annoying to you, but I find them realistic and at times almost endearing. I read over your list of quotes and couldn't help but think, "so what?" Ron's life *IS* hard. I don't think he's a constant complainer. (I agree quite firmly with Del on all this, except on the matter of Molly and Arthur, who I think are remarkably loving parents even under difficult circumstances.) And if you can't talk about annoyances with your friends, who can you talk to? Give me an ordinary, sometimes slightly self-pitying buddy over a "chin up! can-do!" type any day. -Katie From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 05:20:35 2004 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 05:20:35 -0000 Subject: Ron (was: Re: Prefects and points) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106151 Arya: > > Nope. IMO, I do not think the Trio is equal. Sorry. I think it's > > Harry, then Hermione, and then Ron. > > > > but that doesn't mean one is better than the other as a person. > > People are not judged comparitively in the end; it's more like Danish > > judging (from 4H), where each individual is judged on their own > > unique circumstances and individual acheivements. Katie: I'm so confused. If you're ranking the Trio, and yet you say it doesn't mean one is better than another as a person, then what do the rankings mean? Who's best at checkers? Del: > Ordinary people are ordinary because they do ordinary things. They > don't fight monsters and psychopaths : they let the professionals do > that. Ordinary students turn to the teachers, they don't go breaking > the rules to face death yet once again. Those are no ordinary things, > hence Ron is not ordinary. Katie: Del, I am so with you here. For all Dumbledore's blather about our choices, not our abilities, defining us, Harry is treated as crown prince (and no, that's not a HBP reference ;) of the WW from the first pages of PS/SS. Don't get me wrong; I quite like Harry and think he has often made great, noble decisions. But why is "defeating" Voldemort as a *baby* a great accomplishment? Harry's practically titled by the time he arrives at Hogwarts. Give the kid a break! Ron's choices, his loyalty and steadfastness, mark him out as a truly extraordinary person with a merely ordinary appearance and talents. I think this makes him quite admirable, while also quite a bit easier to relate to than Harry, who is, as Del says, "a Prophesied hero in disguise." They're both admirable people, but it's a lot easier to see how, with the right decisions and ideals, we could each be as noble as Ron. Arya: >> Harry is the champion of the books; the > > hero and the one for whom we are meant to feel empathy for and to > > root for. Katie: I'm not convinced that JKR writes Ron as a comic-relief, buddy character-- I think she thinks far more highly of him than that-- but even if she had written him that way, so what? Authorial intent can only go so far. To quote an old D.H. Lawrence saw: "Never trust the teller, trust the tale." The "true hero" of a story depends on who is reading it. This is now where I go off on a small, somewhat unrelated rant that's more opinion than anything else. (Canonists and those who dislike personal feelings in posts, you may want to cover your ears.) I don't think JKR's answer about Ron not being "authoritarian" was an insult at all. It sounded rather like a compliment to me. I personally have never seen anything in "leadership skills"; I prefer the more arbitrary stuff, like personal loyalty, dedication, honor, and the willingness to suffer or die if need be for one's ideals. "Leadership" is more to do with charisma and a desire to influence others than anything else. So Ron's not a great leader? Big %$&*^$# deal. Malfoy's a real leader, and look how great he's turned out. (Yes, this has little to do with being chosen as a prefect; I merely wanted to defend Ron's character.) -Katie who thinks Hufflepuff is vastly underrated From meyerjc16 at uww.edu Wed Jul 14 01:36:38 2004 From: meyerjc16 at uww.edu (ge25y) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 01:36:38 -0000 Subject: Question from the new girl In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106152 > The Sergeant Majorette says: > > Anything's possible. But the fact that JKR cut out Dean's backstory > because it wasn't as important as Neville's would seem to indicate > that Dean is *not* the title character of the next book. > > My vote's for Remus Lupin. I always liked Lupin, but what makes you think it will be him?? Jennie From tinainfay at msn.com Wed Jul 14 01:23:34 2004 From: tinainfay at msn.com (mrs_sonofgib) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 01:23:34 -0000 Subject: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106153 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > > Pippin wrote: > > > It doesn't really matter that the vision of Sirius was false--even > > > if Sirius had truly been held captive, Harry shouldn't have gone > > > after him. > > HunterGreen answered : > > That's true. And that's one of the things that really bothered me > > when I was reading OotP. Harry and the others had no real plan > > besides just walzting into the MoM, as though a bunch of kids could > > save Sirius from *death eaters*. That chapter is the only time I've > > really been pulled out of the book, and felt like I was reading a > > children's story.... > Del replies : > > I was never a real fan of Harry, but this was so horribly out of > character that it made reading about it painful. Even after the bad > temper Harry had been in all year, even considering what he'd seen in > his dream, the whole scene was simply out-of-character for me. I agree. When re-reading the book, I have the urge to skip straight ahead from once the group is caught in Umbridge's office to 'The Lost Prophecy' chapter. It is too painful and too ironic. Harry was disillusioned and it is so frustrating to read because this seems out of character. Of course, I can't wait to see what happens to Kreacher for his role in this most unfortunate plot. I can only hope that he will have learned to listen to the voice of reason (specifically that of Hermione). ~tina From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Wed Jul 14 04:37:58 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 14 Jul 2004 04:37:58 -0000 Subject: Prefects and points Message-ID: <20040714043758.28410.qmail@webmail6.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106154 - Cathy now: - Even Fred and George know the only choice of Prefects is to hand out punishments. They never say "Dock us house - points? Big deal." because they know prefects can't dock house points. - She could have easily threatened F&G with not taking 10 house points, which no one would notice, but "If you don't stop - doing it I'll take two hundred points a piece from you and just let's see how funny you'll think it is then." Didn't say it - because she knew she couldn't do it. Amey: Maybe another reason here might be that she knew that if she took out points from her own house, she will be hated by all the house (remember the time they lost whole lot of points in PS/SS and nobody talked to them). In Gryffindor common room, only person who thought they were doing something wrong was Hermione, so she would not be popular if she took out points for that. Also she knows losing points is nothing for them, but telling Mrs. Weasly is the only way to make them stop. (Even Harrty thinks it?s hitting below the belt). - kitten - So in the fifth book how do you think Harry would act - like, as prefect? Amey: With his great anger boiling just below the surface, no way!! The whole year, Ron was the the better balanced person than Harry was, and I am sure the way he was going with Umbridge, what with daily detentions and all (I am not saying he is wrong), he is not the person who showed any Prefect spirit. And I am sure being a prefect wouldn?t have changed that a bit. - Del replies : - That's the thing that bothers me most. There were *four* Prefects out - there who didn't seem to know that Prefects can dock points. 2 of them - are admittedly very bright (Hermione and Ernie), one would just have - loved to dock points off other Houses so it's quite certain that he - wouldn't forget such a piece of information (Draco), and then there's - Ron. Yes, it *is* in character for Ron not to pay attention, or not to - really want to do his job seriously. But the point is : he wasn't the - only one who didn't know. So why (WHY ???) did JKR get on his case, - and on his case only ? There's only one word for it : unfair. Amey: Foreshadowing anyone, Ron thinks he didn?t do the job properly, resigns from Prefect?s post, Dumbledore makes Harry prefect now, paving way for his being Head Boy in 7th year. - Del replies : - Do you know why I would HATE (and I mean HATE !!!!) for Ron to be - "just comic relief" ? Because Ron is the only one of the Trio who is - normal. Hermione is a gross exxageration of the smart kid, and Harry - is the typical hero who always gets things right. Amey: I agree (not totally) on this one. He is the one person who at least many people will identify with. Not great, but certainly above average where he chooses. Ron has definitely a role to play other than the third person of the trio. I don?t agree with Hermione, I am in many ways like her, reading a lot, not believing anything till it?s not in any book, and studying till the last moment (well not the last moment exactly). She is not exaggeration, she is just one kind of person, even JKR says she was like Hermione. Amey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From adanabbett at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 04:51:40 2004 From: adanabbett at yahoo.com (Adan) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 04:51:40 -0000 Subject: What about Snape (Was: HP and the Half Blood Git) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106155 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Adan, with the realization just dawning that I don't know WHAT > I'd want for Snape. My favorite character and I just have no clue. > > Weird. > > Carol responds: > I'm assuming, first, that you want him to live rather than die > redeeming himself, which I think half the list anticipates as his > fate. > > I personally think that he shouldn't have to put up with > "dunderheads," or they with him, and I think his services to > Dumbledore deserve more recognition than they'll ever receive, by > their very nature. You are right in the assumption that I'd prefer Snape to live. I think I just can't decide what I'd want for him because it still isn't clear just exactly who he is yet. If he truly hates kids and teaching, then I wouldn't want him to continue teaching. For his sake and for theirs. If he's done things to earn respect, then I hope he gets it. If he doesn't, well... Once I know the WHO then I can decide on the WHAT. Mostly, I think I just want his story. I want the WHY. Adan, who would really just rather have the next book, please. From anthyroserain at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 05:48:10 2004 From: anthyroserain at yahoo.com (anthyroserain) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 05:48:10 -0000 Subject: Racism? (was: Re: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106156 Carol: > Now, at the risk of having "Stupefy!" and "Silencio!" hurled at me, > I'm going to propose that perhaps we're making more than we ought to > of "Mudblood" by calling it "racist." What it indicates is not really > quite equivalent to, say, the old U.S. Southern prejudice once held by > many whites against blacks. On one level, it's more like an awareness > of the presence or absence of royal blood; the purebloods see > themselves as a kind of natural aristocracy which shouldn't intermarry > with commoners (Muggleborns, and possibly half-bloods). It's not > really a matter of "race" even though it certainly involves "blood." > > > Please don't send any viruses to my computer if you disagree with me! Katie: Sorry to be the bringer of bad news, Carol, but here's one response already... though I hope it's at least calm and rational :) (You're one of my favorite posters, I'm not sending any viruses to your computer! ;) I don't think JKR is creating an alien universe. I think hers reflects ours, and while I wouldn't call her work an allegory, there's a great deal in the WW that we might recognize in our own. I've referred to the pureblood, erm, ideology as "racism" for some time, often to the confusion of my real-life, HP-reading friends (This board is something else altogether!) So the purebloods have been taught to view another group as inferior? So were many deep-Southern whites until relatively recently. So were nineteenth-century Russians taught to see Jews as inferior. I don't see the point. Yes, it is a matter of upbringing-- and so is almost all prejudice. That doesn't excuse it. "Race", incidentally, may not quite be the right word, but it's often used by the blood-purification crowd in the HP novels, so the use of the word "racism" certainly has some precedent in canon. The prejudice against non-purebloods in the WW doesn't usually come remotely close to the worst examples of prejudice in real life, but I think Voldemort's ideas quite clearly parallel real-life examples. I think JKR means them to; not that they should be read as a specific allegory, but rather that the situations in the novels can be seen in our own world. And as far as the slurs often used by the Slytherin gang go, there are certainly real-life examples of the same, and I definitely weould not consider them harmless. -Katie who luckily restrained herself from analyzing "anti-werewolf legislation" From mayeaux45 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 05:58:15 2004 From: mayeaux45 at yahoo.com (mayeaux45) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 05:58:15 -0000 Subject: Ron (was Hermione's Reaction to... ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106157 Del, Del, Del....It seems to me after reading a good portion of your posts that you're making it seem as if Ron should be the *central* character in the HP series...IMO! It's called Harry Potter and "___" for a reason. It's essentially about Harry Potter and his life and all that it entails. His POV, his interpretations of events, and his experiences are all important to the series. With out him there really wouldn't be one now would there? In most of your posts it has been 'Ron *deserves* this' 'Ron *needs* this' 'He has to *have* that''It wouldn't be fair to Ron if this happened'...and so on! Let's build a bridge shall we... And even if a character can take on a life of its own, as you stated in a previous post, with there only being 2 books left in the series there's not much more room for him to be *bigger* than what is intended by the author! Ron is Ron because JKR writes him as such. Let's stick to canon "Ron" and not fanfic "Ron"! IMO it seemed as if you were running off at the mouth when you said 'I don't care anymore what JKR has to say about Ron, not since she proved that she's prejudiced against him'...Are you mad? It's her character. Without them we wouldn't even be having this discussion and you wouldn't have your precious Ron to talk about and defend! Could you show a little respect to the woman who has given us a window (more like a gateway) into her world of: love, honor, courage, loss, pain, sorrow, regret, loyalty, friendship, and most of all MAGIC! Who are you to say what JKR has control over anymore or not? The character of Ron might have taken on a life of its own in a way, but it is still ultimately up to JKR where it will end!!!! With all do respect Mayeaux45, who just couldn't sit idly by and read this without responding.;) From darkthirty at shaw.ca Wed Jul 14 07:13:06 2004 From: darkthirty at shaw.ca (dan) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 07:13:06 -0000 Subject: SHIP Krum's Role (was SHIP Luna.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106158 "Halli" wrote: >> "I'm not trying to kill anyones visions of a "happy ending" or >> anything, but somehow I don't see these books as romantic as some >> of you... I'm not entirely sure that everyone is going to pair off >> in the end and get married or whatever... Initially, reading this list, I skipped merrily passed all the posts with SHIP in the subject. After a while, as my understanding of the series deepened - after a couple weeks of reading really thoughtful posts, back when the list was full of those - I started to keen on certain aspects of the whole phenomenon. Yet, it is never "happiness" nor "ending" toward which these thoughts strive. No reminiscences of unrequited love colour the anticipated result. Nor do I expect in Rowling's work love itself will make any more "sense" than it does in the real world. (In some cases, however, shippers do seem be motivated by just such things - often the "hard" shippers, those for whom the ships are inevitable and not moot.) What did stand out was that, for some reason, some of the most thoughtful listees here were also fairly active shippers. Jim describes it, partially, as an abundance of references to all sorts of different kinds of love in the books. And he says: "Jim Ferer" wrote: > I want to understand each one of them as best I can, get > under their skins and into their minds and hearts.... I concede this point. But before that there is the question of why we might think/feel shipping has validity in this very sense. In David Copperfield, for example, Dickens does all the work for us regarding romance - we know immediately Emily will fall tragically for Steerforth, and that Ham will pay somehow, we know immediately Dora isn't the last word, and that Agnes is, with her finger pointing upwards and all that. On a more formalaic level there is the whole romance novel genre, extending into the successful-suburban-housewife- leaves-her-family formula, which "works out" what is already apparent. It's like a drug, a substitute for romance, or for leaving. Definitely not Rowling's gambit. Not Rowling's gambit, but in many cases, the formulas from other novels are applied as if it were her gambit. Putting the books exclusively in the kids section is also a mistake. What we are witnessing, and participating in, is something really peculiar and particular. The Harry Potter books have become like Erised to a great many people. And one of the results is that, upon the characters, unto the books themselves, all kinds of emotions and thoughts are being projected, politico-religious viewpoints, silly demands that the books be innocuous, or at least not subversive, sundry moralistic, alchemistic, psychoanalytic contrivances, and ships ships ships. The genius of Rowling is the genius of the possible, of possiblity, the very same that came to her as Harry Potter on the train from Manchester to London. Love is not a closing, but an opening. Love is possiblity. Then why is Rowling so parsimonious with this romance topic? I think it's mostly Rowling herself. On the one hour TV documentary about her, she made a passing reference to not being a very romantic person at all, for a long time. Yet, the possibility was there. That is how characters in her books are, and how WE are. Full of possibility. To exercise a Harry/Hermione ship, or, a Harry/Luna ship, in our minds, (which is where, as I pointed out in my last post, the magic is) can be instructive because it IS possible - Rowling makes it so, quite literally. And what the heck was that little bit about golden lights in Parvati's hair (end of chapter 31, OoTP)? It's not unusual, in fact it's so common as to make up a good portion of a day, in real life terms, to have daydreamy moments like that. It's less usual in genre fiction, without it "meaning" something. It's almost unheard of in children's literature - a passage referring to some character in such a way without it "meaning" anything. Of course, there's the possibility it does "mean" something, other than that Harry was daydreaming, or maybe even as a sign of his being under the influence of a befuddlement potion or something, or even as a sign of the onset of the biggest and most important Voldemort brain incursion, which happens later in that history of magic exam! It's just, Rowling never says "rather like the warning people suffering from epilepsy get before a seizure, Harry found himself distracted by golden lights in Parvati's hair," or "as if under the influence of a befuddlement potion" or the like. I hope that, at the end of the series, Rowling doesn't "happy" or "end", in the sense of no more possibilities. I'd opt for a closing chapter that creates more possibilities. I dont' want the books to "close" that way. In fact, Rowling seems to avoid the closed, so I have no great fear that all our ships will sink. But what Jim came short of saying was that shipping is almost necessary, to understand how the books operate. That is my sense, at any rate. Dan captain of the L3 (League of Luna Lovers) and H/LL shipper From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 07:23:51 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 07:23:51 -0000 Subject: Trewlawney is her grandmother?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106159 Becki wrote: I thought it was obvious that Sybil was "channeling" the prophecy from Cassandra, both times, since #1, it was not her voice, #2 she doesn't have any recolection of the experience and actually flat out denies to to Harry, and #3, doesn't seem to have any other real seer powers. Maybe I was wrong to assume this theory? Carol responds: But then who was Cassandra, a famous Seer with many Prophecies to her credit, channeling? And what about all those other (copied) Prophecies in the DoM (many but not all of them now destroyed)? I very much doubt that all of those Seers channeled Cassandra Trelawney, and none would be speaking in her own voice. I know that some people think that Sybill/Sibyll Trelawney's first Prophecy is a hoax, but that isn't necessarily implied by the fact that she can't remember the prophecy. In fact, that's an indication that it did indeed come from somewhere else (not a DE, as some have recently suggested). I think something more like the daemons that the Greeks believed "inspired" their orators is involved. (Anyone familiar with Plato's "Ion"?) The name "sybil," of course, means prophetess or oracle. IIRC, the oracle at Delphi was a Sybil who spoke the words of Apollo as a sort of medium. I'm guessing that Seers in the WW are also mediums: the question is, whose words they're speaking. The Prophecies must be real, or the DoM wouldn't take the trouble to collect and label and preserve them. And yet the future can't be fixed and absolute, predetermined, or the element of Choice on which JKR and Dumbledore place so much emphasis would be meaningless. As I read it, the Prophecies are ambiguous and can be fulfilled in various ways, but their fulfillment in *some* form is inevitable. As in Greek mythology, attempts to thwart the Prophecy lead to their complete or partial fulfillment, usually not in a form favorable to the person who tried to thwart them--witness the "marking" of Harry as Voldemort's equal, which fulfills one element of the Prophecy but not the whole. Other choices by Voldemort or Harry will bring about the rest--but the when and the how are as yet undetermined. Anyway, I don't know whose the voice is, but it appears to be a voice from the as-yet-uncreated Future--a Mystery as great as Death itself. i very much doubt that it's Cassandra's. With regard to the use of "Dark Lord" rather than Voldemort, a concern raised by another poster (sorry I don't remember who), Voldemort is not Tom Riddle's real name. It's a name he assumed based on an anagram for Tom Marvolo Riddle. But he's the "Lord" of the Dark side, so the term is accurate. As for You Know Who or He Who Must Not Be Named, those are WW euphemisms not likely to be used by an oracle speaking with the authoritative voice of whatever immortal being or spirit or entity Trelawney is channeling. Just my interpretation. Carol From dicentra at xmission.com Wed Jul 14 07:37:38 2004 From: dicentra at xmission.com (Dicentra spectabilis) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 07:37:38 -0000 Subject: Reading Ron and the question of Authorial Intent In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106160 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mayeaux45" wrote: > > Let's stick to canon "Ron" and not fanfic "Ron"! IMO it seemed as > if you were running off at the mouth when you said 'I don't care > anymore what JKR has to say about Ron, not since she > proved that she's prejudiced against him'...Are you mad? It's her > character. I'm going to refer back to an ancient post by Elkins (34802) which addresses the question of how much control an author has over her story and the degree to which the readers can come up with different, yet valid, interpretations of it. Thus spake Elkins: ***** So. In message (33930), Rebecca wrote: > I'd like to make a brief preamble distinguishing between an > interpretation based on canonical evidence and one based on ones > own experience, imagination, influence from other writers and real > world probability. Now if anyone tries to write a fanfic, which was > Elkins original example, they must draw on all these things. I would argue that _all_ readers both can and must draw on all of these things. To do so is intrinsic to the very act of reading a text. Fiction in particular relies upon the reader's ability to make sense of the story through extrapolation from real life, and through inferences drawn from that extrapolation. Should the reader fail to do this, or should her inferences diverge too widely from what the author had anticipated (as might happen, for example, due to vast cultural differences between reader and author), then the story is likely to fall flat: it will not make sense to the reader, or it will fail to engage on any real emotional level. (Yes. This _is_ painfully basic. But please bear with me: I really am trying to go somewhere with this.) Non-canonical sources such as the reader's real life experience, imagination, and understanding of probability, politics, and literary or genre convention are not the enemies of Authorial Intent. They are very important _vehicles_ of Authorial Intent. But the Author does not get to steer those vehicles. We do. And We Are Legion. This is relevant because, as the endless quality of some of the debates here demonstrate (just how many students _are_ there at Hogwarts, anyway?), canon itself is often ambiguous or self- contradictory, open to many equally-plausible interpretations; on many issues, it is simply silent. When this happens, then readers must turn to non-canonical considerations -- themselves often ambiguous or self-contradictory -- to decide which of competing potential canonical 'truths' they wish to privilege. Because there are so many non-canonical factors open for consideration, however, and because many of these are intensely personal, no two readers are likely to construct 'canonical suggestion' in precisely the same way. Some disagreement over what is in fact suggested or implied by the text is unavoidable. It is, I believe, this very quality of fiction -- the fact that it not only invites, but actively _demands_ that the reader insert his own experiences into the text -- that makes the act of reading fiction so highly engaging, and so deeply immersive. Fiction demands a great deal of active participation from the reader. It is intensely personal. The hazy indeterminate space which lies between What the Author Tells Us and That Which Canon Does Not Prohibit is the space in which the story lives and breathes. It is the space in which not only fanfic, but also reader speculation -- such as gets discussed on this list -- and to some extent reader engagement itself resides. Canonical "suggestion" lives within this space. But so do reader imagination...and reader desire. ***** There is much more to the post (in fact, it's divided into two posts), and I suggest reading them if you'd like. The point is that no text is so *closed* that it allows only one interpretation. Not one of us can really say what Ron *is* with 100% accuracy. I doubt that even Ron himself could tell you, much less JKR. Furthermore, the better the work of art, the more aspects of it are not visible to the author herself -- and yet they are there for those with eyes to see. I've experienced this myself when people have seen patterns in things I've written that I never intended to put there, but I never noticed them until someone pointed them out. For a demonstration of how this works in the Potterverse, I'll refer back to one of my own essays about Ron (51934, 51935). IIRC, JKR said that Ron has jealousy problems in GoF. I maintain that he doesn't. I suggest that when discussing our differing interpretations of characters, we recognize that unless someone makes a totally anti-canonical assertion ("Ron is a robot"), it's not fair to say "you've got the wrong Ron." See also Elkins' post 51178, "Re: You're reading the wrong book." Because if there were only one way to interpret the Potterverse, HPfGU wouldn't have a reason to exist. --Dicentra, whose interpretation of Ron is *really* the right one :D From drednort at alphalink.com.au Wed Jul 14 07:39:17 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 17:39:17 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Prefects and points In-Reply-To: <001001c468e2$4cd79170$63fbe2d1@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: <40F56FC5.24487.1F469B3@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 106161 On 13 Jul 2004 at 10:04, Cathy Drolet wrote: > Even Fred and George know the only choice of Prefects is to hand out > punishments. They never say "Dock us house points? Big deal." because > they know prefects can't dock house points. Hermione was involved in > both situations quoted above. Sorry, Cathy, I can't agree. You're making an assumption here that the reason Hermione threatens the twins with detention is because that's the only punishment penalty she has. That's a erroneous assumption, in my view. For one thing in the 'heirarchy of punishments' at Hogwarts, detention seems to be clearly a more severe punishment than the loss of a few house points. It'd be rather weird - not impossible - but weird if prefects had the power to hand out detentions, but not the power to hand out loss of house points. As someone who has lived in such a system, I think it's far more likely (though not certain) that prefects are simply very limited in the punishments they can hand out themselves. It may be they are limited, for example, to only taking away at most 10 points - enough that they can do *something* but not enough to really cast terror into Fred and George. I would actually suspect that a prefect can't give out detentions at Hogwarts - at least not by themselves. At my school, the only punishment a prefect could hand out was signatures (students carried a card to be signed - one signature wasn't a big deal, but if you managed to get ten, the consequences were pretty awful). That was the extent of our personal powers. *However* we could send someone up to a teacher in charge (typically their form master at my school) with a recommendation they get a detention (or even the cane) and nine times out of ten, it would happen. We didn't have the power ourselves - but we came pretty close to it. I suspect the only punishment Hermione can actually hand out *herself* is the loss of a fairly small number of house points - not enough to worry Fred and George - even Malfoy, when he's being a complete - sorry, won't use that word here (-8 - in Order of the Phoenix only takes away five and ten points at a time. In a school where we've seen teachers knock off 50 points at once, that's not a particularly severe punishment. Fred and George have Hermione over a barrell - because it's clear that they are not impressed by her disciplinary powers. In the situation I describe that doesn't surprise me. If she can't take away enough points to have an effect on them, that power has no use. And, while, perhaps there's a mechanism by when she can give them a detention, if that involves her having to escalate matters to McGonagall, it's likely to be something she's *very* reluctant to do under normal circumstances. When a prefect has disciplinary powers, it's part of their job to prevent disciplinary matters coming to the attention of the teachers. They should only escalate something if it's too serious for them to deal with personally. Escalating a minor matter that you should have been able to deal with yourself makes you look bad - and Hermione would not be the type to want to give McGonagall, the impression she can't handle her responsibilities and duties. > If anyone knew the Prefects can take > house points from their own house rule, she would have and would have > pointed it out. Under *normal* circumstances, yes. However, in the case of Fred and George, if her powers are limited to a number of points that wouldn't have an impact on them, then doing so would have simply shown them she was as powerless over them as they were saying. In the case of Malfoy, etc, while she might correct normally, doing so in this case would have accomplished *nothing* except possibly to give Malfoy an excuse to smirk at Ernie and Ron. Why give him the satisfaction? > She knew, from first hand experience, how angry the > rest of the Gryffindors got when big chunks of points disappeard from > their hourglass. She could have easily threatened F&G with not taking > 10 house points, which no one would notice, but "If you don't stop > doing it I'll take two hundred points a piece from you and just let's > see how funny you'll think it is then." Didn't say it because she knew > she couldn't do it. Detention means nothing to the Twins, obvioulsy, > they've done it hundreds of times. Lines? What good are they anyway > (well unless Umbridge is involved)? Can't take house points. What's > left? Tell Mrs. Weasley. I don't think she could take 100 points away - but it's perfectly possible she could take ten. A power doesn't *have* to be absolute - not by any stretch of the imagination. With the signature cards at my school, a teacher could give up to ten signatures at a time (very rare - normally if something that serious was happening, they wouldn't mess around with the card). A prefect could give only five at most, and was *very* *strongly* encouraged to restrain themselves to one or two (I had a very nasty interview about 'abuse of power' on one occasion, after I pushed my authority just a little too far). Maybe the twins don't fear detention either - but that seems to be a more serious punishment at Hogwarts - or maybe they just know Hermione is unlikely to do it (which could be explained by the conditions I've given above). As for what good lines are - in a world with copying spells, not much probably - unless you sit there are watch them being done. (although as someone who once had to write 1000 lines, I can say, I'm honestly not sure my hand would have hurt any more if Umbridge's quill was involved!) I'm not saying the disciplinary model I've outlined above is accurate. It just seems to me it fits the facts we have perfectly well. It's possible you're correct as well - but you're idea is not the only one supported by the facts available by any means. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From patientx3 at aol.com Wed Jul 14 08:22:10 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 08:22:10 -0000 Subject: FF: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106162 HunterGreen previously: > Out of curiousity, what is it that you would like to see Dumbledore > do with Snape? Fire him or force him to change his methods? Because > if he fired him Dumbledore might be faced with the situation of not > having another potions master to take his place (not to mention Snape > would no longer be nearby if he needed him, something that has proved > VERY useful in the past), and if he forced him to change his methods, > Snape almost certainly refuse, and then be fired. Dzeytoun replied: > I think this is well handled in a fanfic called "Folly" by Bored > Beyond Belief. It can be found here: > http://www.fanfiction.net/s/1712551/1/ HunterGreen: Sorry, I don't have the patience for fanfic (the very idea of it makes my skin crawl to be honest...I just think the characters are best left to the author), do you have a simplier answer? Or, you others out there who have argued against Snape's teaching, what do you think should happen to him? (and I'm talking in the reality of the book, because I'm sure few of you would like to see Snape disappear from the books). From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 08:29:28 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 08:29:28 -0000 Subject: Why Fret About Voldemort Considering Riddle? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106163 Meri wrote : > in Harry's mind the prophecy seems to imply some sort of > predetermination on his part. He's going to have to do *something* > and be the pro-actor instead of the reactor. Del replies : I see your point. I'm just not convinced, for two main reasons. 1. As I stated before, the Prophecy does not mention anything about Harry having to go after LV. So considering that Harry has already fought 3 times (4 if you count Tom Riddle in) with LV without ever having hunted him down (or almost, see below), it doesn't seem logical to me that Harry would automatically conclude that in order to face LV one last time he will have to hunt him down. He knows LV *will* come after him to kill him, that he Harry doesn't have to do anything to provoke that meeting, that he just has to let things happen and LV will come of his own accord. If he didn't know about the Prophecy, he would still know about that fact : that LV won't rest till he's killed Harry. He would know it because LV made it clear in his actions. So why should he be so upset at what the Prophecy says ? 2. Harry actually hunted LV once already, and he didn't have qualms about it. I mean, what *exactly* did he intend to do to make LV stop torturing Sirius ?? I guess we just get back to another one of my pet peeves : Harry never stopped to *think* anything through, he just went to the DoM without ever figuring any kind of plan beforehand. If he *had* thought things through, he would have realised that *nothing* would make LV stop torturing Sirius (or spare Harry's life for that matter) short of murder. So basically, he *already* hunted down LV once with the unconscious plan of killing him. Meri wrote : > I don't think an adult would hold any such romantic (not really the > word I'm looking for, but you get the idea) notions that killing LV > would be murder. I think that a grownup, something that Harry just > isn't quite, would understand that there is a difference between > cold blooded murder and what he has to do, but once again, I think > in Harry's mind there is a distinction. Del replies : I don't know about other readers, but I developed those romantic notions as I grew up. It is *now*, as an adult, that I can't help thinking that killing someone, whatever the circumstances, is murder, and that I have to remind myself that there are circumstances that justify killing someone. But when I was a kid, even a teenager, things were much simpler than that : the baddies *deserved* to die because they were evil. And I was generally considered a sweet girl with high morals. In Harry's position, I would have had no hesitations : someone who was out there to kill me just because I stood in the way of their evil plans would have deserved to die. Clear and simple. But I do understand that other people would think differently. Del From lysandrabellargus at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 14 07:42:55 2004 From: lysandrabellargus at yahoo.co.uk (Sandra) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 07:42:55 -0000 Subject: Lily's Eyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106164 Susan wrote > Don't you think that something must happen in Book 6 or 7 about Harry > having his mother's eyes? JKR hits us over the head with this > observation several times in the first few books -- every time > someone who knew Lily meets Harry -- but it remains undeveloped. JKR I was also thinking about Lily's eyes, but it was the message about colours (of spells e.g.) that made me think about it. Because the colour of Lily's eyes are GREEN (same as Harry's spell in GoF against LV) opposed to the eyes of LV ( and his spells): RED (or at least with a red gleam, if I recall correctly). So I susspect it just adds to them being the major opponents. I think DD's spells are quite often silver, so that puts him in a neutral position, I guess. Maybe we should look more into detail in the use of colour - o dear I have just realized the Weasleys all have red hair... But than again it could also be that it is not only Lily's actual eyes, but that in fact it stands for her point of view ( like with Snape's pensieve incident). > I also hope that Fred and George continue making us laugh. I agree > with Harry -- we need the laughter. I agree with that, but I am also counting on Ginny and Luna! Sandra From shoujo at optusnet.com.au Wed Jul 14 08:10:29 2004 From: shoujo at optusnet.com.au (Shoujo) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 18:10:29 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] William Gibson knew how to kill Voldemort! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44D461DF-D56D-11D8-9941-000A95E19732@optusnet.com.au> No: HPFGUIDX 106165 On 14/07/2004, at 4:27 PM, ericoppen wrote: > > Without magic, baseball bats, and other instruments of...attitude > adjustment...still work just fine. And somehow, I don't think that > Voldemort, new body or no, is exactly up on the noble art of self- > defense without magic. Matter of fact, the Big V might be weak as a > kitten. Uhh... LV was part-muggle, remember? I'm sure growing up in the muggle orphanage he learnt a thing or two about the vulnerability of the human form, particularly it's susceptibility to things non-magical. Bill -- Bill Cooney Original Music for Film, Television, Theatre and Multimedia From paul_terzis at yahoo.gr Wed Jul 14 08:43:50 2004 From: paul_terzis at yahoo.gr (paul_terzis) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 08:43:50 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106166 > > Del wrote : > Ron knows *very well* what following Harry might entail : death for > himself and his loved ones. > snip > > Sorry Paul, but it doesn't take a Prophecy for any soldier to realise > that he will have to kill or be killed. *Everyone* involved in the > war, Prophecy or not, can be faced with that possibility of having to > choose between killing or being killed. > snip > > > Well, I don't know how to tell you that nicely, Paul, so I'll just be > frank but please don't be offended, OK ? You cannot tell me or anyone > else how we're supposed to see the books. You can see them exclusively > as the Odyssey of HP if you like, but you can't force us to see them > that way if we don't want to. And I don't want to, because it *bores* > me to death to consider them that way. Sorry. There are people out > there who identify Harry's story with Alchemy or with different kinds > of spiritual journeys, it's their right and I won't go telling them > off for that, even if I couldn't relate less to what they are saying. > Mind you, I'm not saying that HP is only a love story either, even > though I could argue that every book, every life, is about finding > love and acceptance. But I won't, because I don't mind admitting that > the love stories are only sub-parts of the bigger story in HP, which > is the war against LV. But I happen to *like* those sub-parts, so I > will dwell on them if I want. Non mais >:-) ! > > Dear Del don't worry. I am not so easily offended. After all we are all members of the same group and on-line friends. I may not made myself clear at some points so allow me to clarify in order to settle any misunderstanding. 1) We are talking about teenagers and specifically the students of Hogwarts. From them only HP has experiences about a real warfare. He is the only one except Neville who saw a comrade in arms and a friend dying. He is the only one who fought against LV himself and he is the only one who suffered an extensive torture. RW , HG, NL, LL, GW fought with valor at the side of HP in the MoM but that was nothing next to what HP has been facing. So I have a point when I am saying that Ron and the others do not understand fully what it means war against LV. 2) A soldier is someone that he is trained to kill if there is need in order to defend his beliefs. I am sorry to say that but almost noone from the wizards and witches of the light side are trained to kill. Why? Because they don't believe in killing. They can counter, deflect and at the most incapacitate the enemy. Only Aurors are trained to kill. The students of the Hogwarts are not Aurors and therefore are not trained to kill. And that includes HP. 3) Odyssey is the voyage of Ulysses from Troy to his home Ithaka. It is a hymn in honor of every man or woman ,that against all odds and universal conspiracies, manages to overcome any obstacle and fulfil his or her dream. It is a voyage physical, emotional and spiritual demanding. But Odyssey is not only that. Odyssey is also a hymn to true love because at the end Ulysses finds his true love, named his wife. 4) My previous post has nothing to do with reprimands against anyone. I am not the master of the universe to tell anyone what he should think or do. I am not also God to be always right. I respect every member of this group and his/her beliefs. I was just tired from the endless repetition of the same points the last couple of months since I became a member of this group. I am a shipper too. I like to analyse the love aspects of the HP series also. But lately this debate reminds me a boxing match. '- HP leads 15 to 14 against RW. -No, no. It's the opposite. - No you forget that scene in book 2. - No you are wrong that scene means exactly the opposite. - Ok lets count again to see who will get the girl.' I am not exlude myself from this. I repeat I am not exclude myself from this. I suggest we find together a better way to analyse the love aspects of this Saga. If my previous or even this post offended anyone I sincerely apologise to thee. With my Best Regards to every member of this group, Paul P.S. I also apologise because my last 2-3 posts in this thread have not entirely connected with the given subject. From rotedrache at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 09:35:25 2004 From: rotedrache at yahoo.com (rotedrache) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:35:25 -0000 Subject: Pureblood Vs. Halfblood (was Dudley as HBP??!!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106168 > Mandy wrote: > > > > It follows the creed that if there is just one drop of non- magical > > blood in your family line, you are considered non-pure or half- > > blooded. > > > > Cheers Mandy > > Jake replied: > > A half-blood is anyone who > has at least a drop of old, pure blood in their immediate family > line. A muggle-blood is someone without any old, pure blood in their > immediate family line. A pure-blood is someone with old, pure-blood > on both sides of their immediate family line. This definition fits > with all characters in the book and makes sense of how both Tom and > Harry are half-bloods. It also makes it impossible for dudley diddums > to be a half blood. > > Jake Tilly adds: Hi, I'm new here, but I've been following this 'what is a halfblood?' debate with interest. I'm not all that well up on geneology or heraldry, but I remember reading about the idea of the proof of nobility that was needed, for example by Napoleon to get into the school at Brienne. The idea there was that to be proper "nobility" you had to be able to prove it for so many generations for say four lines of descent (paternal and maternal grandparents.) I would be inclined toward a similar idea for pureblooded wizards. A pureblood would be one who had wizarding ancestors for a specified number of generations, in a specified number of lines of descent. A muggleborn equates with someone who is raised to the nobility. Both parents are muggles. A halfblood is someone who falls between the two. Either one parent is a muggle or there is a muggle within the specified number of generations. Jake said: > Consider what would happen if two > muggle-blood magic folk had a child. Would the child be a half- blood > a pure-blood or a muggle-blood? By your definition, the child would > be a half-blood. But then think of what the Malfoys would say of > this. They don't count the blood for you but they do for your child? > That doesn't make sense. In thier eyes, the child would still be a > muggle-blood witch or wizard. Tilly replies: I would disagree here. Strangely I think that the blood would count for the child and not for the parents. Blood depends on the parents. You cannot be 'muggleborn' with a wizard for a parent. However, you would be far from being a pureblood. Jake said: Ernie Mac., who claims to > be as pure as anyone, only claims to be able to trace his pure > heritage back thirteen generations (at which point, we are led to > assume, there may be some muggle-blood--hence the disclaimer). > Indeed, the text clearly states that there isn't a witch or wizard > alive that doesn't have some muggle-blood in their family line. Tilly replies: I'm wondering about the 13 generations. Does he mean that every ancestor for 13 generations is a wizard (which is a lot of people!) Or is it as I've said above only in a specified number of lines of descent. Because if it is the latter, there may be a muggle somewhere a lot closer than 13 generations ago in his family tree, but is ignored because it's on his maternal grandmother's maternal side! Just adding my 2 cent to the discussion. Tilly From lysandrabellargus at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 14 08:44:23 2004 From: lysandrabellargus at yahoo.co.uk (Sandra) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 08:44:23 -0000 Subject: Trewlawney is her grandmother?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106169 > Becki wrote: > > I thought it was obvious that Sybil was "channeling" the > prophecy from Cassandra, both times, since #1, it was not her voice, > #2 she doesn't have any recolection of the experience and actually > flat out denies to to Harry, and #3, doesn't seem to have any other > real seer powers. Maybe I was wrong to assume this theory? > Although Trewlawney is from the WW, we can assume her prophecy to be genuine, IMO, by assumptions and comparison with the real world - or the myths. #1 this a generally how prophecies are described - the seer usally speaks not in his/her own voice, but in a voice, often described as deep, hoarse. #2 this again is 'normal' for prophecies, as the seers usally have their helpers (priests in the case of Delphi) who hear the 'message', so it is not lost, as the seers do not recollect them. #3 this I can not deny ; ) but it brings me to another point, it is in fact DD (JKR 'voice') who says that the prophecy was probably genuine - ' which brings her total up to two'. Sandra From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Wed Jul 14 08:39:12 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 14 Jul 2004 08:39:12 -0000 Subject: Penseive and Underestimated Weasleys Message-ID: <20040714083912.21814.qmail@webmail9.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106170 - aggiepaddy said: - << - Subject: Unappreciated Weasleys (was: Prefects and points) - Thanks to Del and several other members that recently brought up - something that has been bothering me too: JKR insulting treatment of - Ron. Is he just a comic relief? IMO the problem is actually slightly - different: In OotP Ron actually DOES many worthy things, only they - are very well hidden. Also I'd like to point out that this pattern - (minus the comic relief) is also common to his sister Ginny. Amey: Really great analysis!!! I would like to add one more point here. In GoF and OOtP, Ginny came out of her silent brooding about the hero with green eyes, and started thinking about it rationally. That has made her more positive and is giving us more insight into what she really is (I definitely like the way she is growing up to be an important member of DA and also the fourth person of the trio in many ways). Her character is really growing up, and she is closer to Harry than when she used to shut up and do some stupid things when he was around. If I remember right, Harry tells her that he wants to talk to Sirius after the Penseive incident, right? I am not rooting here for H/G ship, but what I am saying is that, Ginny is coming into her own. Maybe that will be the way Ron will go in next books, still no.2 to Harry, but not overshadowed by him. And being a prefect has given him some time on his own (and with Hermione if you want) to come into his own. I hope, he also develops the same way as Ginny has. Amey, who is admiring Ginny more and more after Yule Ball [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From omphale at onetel.com Wed Jul 14 09:49:20 2004 From: omphale at onetel.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:49:20 -0000 Subject: Lilly's eyes and their colour Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106171 Hi, Sandra wrote, >I was also thinking about Lily's eyes, but it was the message about >colours (of spells e.g.) that made me think about it. >Because the colour of Lily's eyes are GREEN (same as Harry's spell in >GoF against LV) opposed to the eyes of LV ( and his spells): RED (or >at least with a red gleam, if I recall correctly). >So I susspect it just adds to them being the major opponents. >I think DD's spells are quite often silver, so that puts him in a >neutral position, I guess. >Maybe we should look more into detail in the use of colour Which made me think about the fact that Harry's eyes are green, which is the colour of Slytherin House and Voldemort's are red, which is the colour of Gryffindor. JKR has also said that the colour of Harry's eyes are significant (sorry can't remember which interview, but in World Book Day online chat she says "no comment!" when asked about Harry's eye colour) the sorting hat still insists Harry should be in Slytherin. hmmm ... Saraquel From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 10:48:25 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:48:25 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106172 Valky : > You KNOW I went from Snape stands accused, by an as yet not proven > to be unreliable source (Sirius), of preferring Dark Arts spells to > other kind at this time, to hence he used his preferred style. Del replies : If I refer to what Sirius told Harry in OoP when Harry contacted him to talk about the Pensieve scene, here's what I get : "Snape was just this little oddball who was up to his eyes in the Dark Arts" "Snape was a special case. I mean, he never lost an opportunity to curse James" But we also have : "Once James had deflated his head a bit," said Sirius. "And stopped hexing people just for the fun of it," said Lupin. So. Snape was up to his eyes in the Dark Arts and he never lost an opportunity to curse James, and James hated the Dark Arts but hexed people just for fun. Once again, we get stalled by the meaning of words. Is "curse" a darker word than "hex" ? And even more important, does "curse" necessarily denote Dark Magic ? If it doesn't, then nothing Sirius says tells us that Snape used the Dark Arts on other people : he *studied* them, but Sirius never clearly says that he *used* them on other people. We can *infer* that, but it's not necessarily true. Valky wrote : > The Expelliarmus and the Impedimenta are *by nature* Defensive > spells, Del replies : I strongly disagree. Expelliarmus is a spell aimed at disarming your opponent. In other words, and as Snape so brilliantly demonstrated in CoS, it's the first spell any wizard *attacking* another should think of using. I agree that it can be used in defensive situations of course, like Harry did in GoF against LV, but it is nonetheless an *aggressive* spell aimed at stripping someone of all ability to do any magic (except for wandless magic, which few wizards seem to master). Impedimenta is even more obviously an aggressive spell. Its aim is to make someone lose all control of their body. Once again, it's a spell that can be used defensively, of course, but that doesn't change its nature. Now, a spell like Protego, the shielding charm, for example, is very obviously a defensive spell *only*. If I were told that someone used Protego, I would have to conclude that they were being attacked. But if I was told that someone used Expelliarmus or Impedimenta, I couldn't decide if they were attacking or defending. I would need more information. I Do see your point, though. Expelliarmus and Impedimenta both aim at preventing someone from doing something. They don't *harm* the person that receives them (though they can be used to allow harm to be done to that person). A cutting spell, on the other hand, will always harm the person it's aimed at. But as I said in an earlier post, Snape was the victim in this case, and he was allowed to use pretty much any means (within the limits of the law) to stop his attackers. He *could* have used a nicer spell, like Expelliarmus and Impedimenta, but he didn't *have* to. Moreover, as I said before too, Snape knew this was most probably going to be his *only* chance : Sirius had seen him move, he was going to hex him before Snape had any chance to hex Sirius after hexing James (Am I making sense here ?) So we could take Snape's choice of a cutting spell as a statement from Snape : you're going to win because I have no chance against the two of you, but you're going to pay for it. Or maybe he was hoping that the cutting spell was going to create enough damage that James would have to be taken to the hospital wing immediately, which would most likely have ended the duel. Or maybe quite simply, the cutting spell was the only one that translated appropriately the hate Snape was feeling at that time towards James, so he didn't think of using any other. Now, if you really want to know, I think Snape acted stupidly, and completely wasted his opportunity. He could have used the Impedimenta spell, which would have taken James out of the fight for a while, and then immediately used the Protego spell to protect himself against Sirius. It would then have been just Snape vs Sirius, in which case Snape would have had a big chance of winning. I think someone like Harry, who usually keeps his head cool during a battle, would have acted like that : take one opponent out of the battle so that you can deal more easily with the other one. But Snape was not Harry : he let his anger take over, and thought only of translating it in a spell, hence the cutting spell I guess. Del From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 10:59:56 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:59:56 -0000 Subject: Unappreciated Weasleys (was: Prefects and points) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106174 Neri wrote: Then we get to the great battle in the DoM. Somehow by pure coincidence (yeah right) Harry goes one direction with Hermione and Neville, while Ron and Ginny run the other direction with Luna. So again we get to read a detailed description of Hermione's courage and resourcefulness (I don't even bother to count how many times she and Harry save each other's life) as well as her noble conduct ("you can't hurt a baby!"). Then Hermione is injured and Harry is frantic. Don't let her be dead! And what were Ron, Ginny and Luna doing during all that time? Well, they were apparently doing a lot, fighting several DEs and getting hurt and probably saving each other's lives several times over, but WE DON'T GET TO SEE IT. All we get is Luna's sketchy report. Turns out they were fighting the DEs in zero gravity, in the dark, in a giant moving model of the solar system. Wow! This could have been the grandest action scene in OotP, and what do we ever hear about it? "I reducto Pluto in his face". Not exactly detailed. And even that much we get from Luna. The injured Ginny is the usual stiff-upper-lip (she clearly has too many brothers and too few sisters. Someone should explain to her that the strong-and-silent thing is for guys). Ron is even worse. Instead of getting hit with something heroically looking, such as a bleeding shoulder wound, or something that will leave an interesting scar on his forehead, he gets hit with something that makes him tell rude jokes and do stupid things. How appropriate. vmonte responds: This is the best post I've read on HPFGU's. I've even printed a copy of it for myself. Your assesment of Ron and Ginny is right on the money. Much of what they do goes unnoticed or is pushed the background. I know that JKR is a Christian and I'm reminded of something that happened to me in my catholic elementary school. We were going over the life of one of the Saints and a boy in our class told the Nun that his goal in life was to become a Saint. She started asking the other children what their religious goals were, and people answered in many ways, from doing charity work to becoming Nuns or Priests. When she came to me I said that I wanted to help or save someone but that I didn't want the recognition or glory associated with it. She asked me what I meant. I said that I just wanted to know that I had done the right thing. I felt that to be a good Christian it was not proper to do what what was right for the glory/recognition, but to do what was right because it was the correct path to follow. I just realized that from your post that this must be why I'm drawn to Ron's character. I felt the same way about the character of Sam in the movie Lord of the Rings. Sam did what he did out of loyalty to his best friend, Frodo (I think that was his name?). Frodo would have never made it to the end of the story if it wasn't for Sam. And Sam risked his life not for glory, but because it was the right thing to do. Of course it's only Frodo who will be remembered. And Sam? I'm pretty sure he doesn't care about that. He feels good in knowing that what he did was right. vivian From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Jul 14 11:16:17 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:16:17 +0100 Subject: Dobby redux Message-ID: <3A0BB241-D587-11D8-AB9D-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106175 What's with Dobby? This a question, one of the questions, one of the *many* questions that still has to be sorted out in the Potterverse. Personally I can't stand the little creep. It may be movie contamination but the expression on his face when levitating the cake in CoS just confirmed my prejudices. A sly, vicious leer. Quite startling from a supposed 'cuddly' intended to engage our sense of humour and/or sympathy. Nail the little bugger to the wall by his ears and extract his knee-caps through his nostrils, that's my advice. Unfortunately that won't make the question go away, though it would definitely be a moment of rare merriment for like-minded folk. OK. CoS. Dobby inflicts himself on Harry in Privet Drive. Tries to persuade him not to go back to Hogwarts. Warns him of dire plots, dirty work at the crossroads, that sort of thing. Why? Of what concern is Harry to Dobby? House Elves do their master's bidding, they don't go gadding about the countryside doing poor imitations of Trelawney at her most enigmatic. They concern themselves with the household they serve, not total strangers. If he wanted to nip the plot in the bud, he'd warn the Weasleys, not Harry. The dastardly plot is to go forward, it seems; but Harry, *just* Harry is to be kept out of it. Or maybe not. As we all appreciate, telling Harry "hands off" is equivalent to handing him a map showing how to get to ground zero, a packet of sandwiches and a "See you when it's all over." Two possibilities occur to me - well, three, but we should be able to discount one of them out of hand. We'll deal with that one first. I wondered if there was a parallel in the behaviour of Dobby and Kreacher. Ole Kreech goes beetling off to Chateau Malfoy at the first opportunity, spilling beans to Narcissa that the Order would rather remain unspilled. Dobby might have done the same, expressing his philosophical disapproval of Malfoy's moral stance by telling Harry as much as Malfoy's instructions allowed him to. But this would mean that Harry and the Malfoys were somehow related, and we've been told that Harry has no living relatives except the Dursleys. Shame. Could have cobbled together some entertaining posts around that idea. So, scrub that one. Secondly - there's this mysterious Office for House Elf Relocation in the Ministry. Herself rarely does something without good reason and this seems a largely irrelevant snippet to throw into FBaWTFT - especially since House Elves aren't mentioned in the body of the text, there's just this brief reference in 'About the Author'. Hmm. I find that suspicious, but then I find everything suspicious. But: we know that the Potters are pureblood, an old wizarding family, with loadsadosh (James inherited wealth) - just the sort of people to have a House Elf pottering around the family pile, according to Ron. Is Dobby the old family retainer, still retaining vestiges of loyalty to the Young Master - even though he has been re-located? Could be, though it does have a deus-ex-machina feel about it. Throw in all that palaver of of "Master has given Dobby a sock," followed soon after by "Harry Potter freed Dobby!" to the mix. Is this meant to be taken at face value (Harry was instrumental in Dobby being freed) or is JKR pulling a fast one - (Harry somehow had the necessary authority to instigate Dobby's release since what Malfoy did was clearly unintentional) and sneakily hiding a clue in plain sight? This subject has been picked over, dissected, discussed, disagreed about, interpreted and re-interpreted at almost tedious length. Life's too short to go through that again - unless something new turns up in the way of evidence. And sometimes I muse on the fact that none of James/Lily's friends (except DD who never gives any information away unless absolutely necessary) have met Dobby in the timeline of the books. Is this chance or authorial intent? Would they recognise Dobby? It's the third possibility that I find fascinating, mostly because it opens up vistas of double-dealing, betrayal and duplicity. Lovely! Unfortunately, for all it's attractions it's the option with the least evidential or even inferential support. Still, that's never stopped a conspiracy theorist before, so... Dobby is under orders from Lucius. After all, it's not just a single visit to Privet Drive we're talking about, he drops in on Harry at Hogwarts a few times too. How often can House Elves flout their masters wishes, for Heavens sake? Once - possible; more seems a bit iffy to me. And there's the strange way he identifies the danger - "Not he who must not be named" - very odd, very.....rehearsed. Add in the mildness of DD's reaction at the finale - after he's been suspended, Hagrid's been to Azkaban, students have been petrified and Malfoy just gets a warning regarding his future behaviour. Hardly seems just or equitable. You begin to wonder if Malfoy's been covering all the options, that hints have been passed and understood; that by sending Dobby with a warning he's also sent a message - "I can be useful." He's not the type to totally commit himself to a cause that might lose; doesn't Voldy think so too? "Lucius, my slippery friend..." Though he was rather silly getting involved in the Ministry fiasco. Still, he does seem the type to play both ends against the middle, and to do that he has to appear co-operative when Voldy says "Jump!" Personally, I think option 2 is the likeliest, but option 3 has the most potential for fun and games. The possibility that it can all be taken at face value, that Dobby had heard how 'great' Harry is and took the opportunity to nip over and tell him to watch his step is highly unlikely given that House Elves are so fixatedly family orientated. Dobby, like Kreacher would go to the family member most in tune with his views - that'd be Andromeda, Tonks's mother. Unless she's ESE too.... Kneasy From ffionmiles at hotmail.com Wed Jul 14 11:54:01 2004 From: ffionmiles at hotmail.com (ffimiles) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 11:54:01 -0000 Subject: Ron's "poor me" syndrome. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106176 > > Katie: > > Ron's minor complaints may annoying to you, but I find them > realistic and at times almost endearing. I read over your list of > quotes and couldn't help but think, "so what?" Ron's life *IS* hard. > I don't think he's a constant complainer. (I agree quite firmly with > Del on all this, except on the matter of Molly and Arthur, who I > think are remarkably loving parents even under difficult > circumstances.) And if you can't talk about annoyances with your > friends, who can you talk to? Give me an ordinary, sometimes > slightly self-pitying buddy over a "chin up! can-do!" type any day. > Ffi I agree - everyone moans about their lives when there are those worst off than you, even when it's someone close to you. Ron can't constantly go round thinking of Harry's difficulties and therefore putting aside anything in life that annoys him, that wouldn't be normal and in fact, would make him rather odd and really annoying. He also gets reminded of his family's lack of money by malfoy on a regular basis and this will also rub salt in this wound. Ffi From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 11:58:58 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 11:58:58 -0000 Subject: Unappreciated Weasleys (was: Prefects and points) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106177 Neri wrote: Then we get to the great battle in the DoM. Somehow by pure coincidence (yeah right) Harry goes one direction with Hermione and Neville, while Ron and Ginny run the other direction with Luna. So again we get to read a detailed description of Hermione's courage and resourcefulness (I don't even bother to count how many times she and Harry save each other's life) as well as her noble conduct ("you can't hurt a baby!"). Then Hermione is injured and Harry is frantic. Don't let her be dead! And what were Ron, Ginny and Luna doing during all that time? Well, they were apparently doing a lot, fighting several DEs and getting hurt and probably saving each other's lives several times over, but WE DON'T GET TO SEE IT. All we get is Luna's sketchy report. Turns out they were fighting the DEs in zero gravity, in the dark, in a giant moving model of the solar system. Wow! This could have been the grandest action scene in OotP, and what do we ever hear about it? vmonte again: I have some predictions to book 6 and 7 based on your post. Ginny will become Prefect. If I remember correctly being a Prefect has its definite advantages. You can roam around the castle without teachers asking you what you are doing because maintaining order and security is part of your job. Fred and George will somehow get to open their joke shop at the Honeydukes location (Honeydukes owners will move or retire). Or someone else in the Order (hopefully not a DE) will open up shop there. This will give the new tenants access to Hogwarts. Ron and Ginny will start to do behind the scenes work for the Order. The other HP characters will be unaware of their work, but JKR's readers will finally get to see them in action. vmonte From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 12:02:55 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:02:55 -0000 Subject: Ron's "poor me" syndrome. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106178 Alla wrote : > hereare som examples of Ron's endless complaining of how poor he is. > "Five," said Ron. For some reason, he was looking gloomy. > "I'm the sixth in our family to go to Hogwarts. You could say I've > got a lot to live up to. Del replies : Check the way he's talking : it's not the way an 11-year-old boy talks. The way I see it, he's only repeating what his parents, especially Molly, must have been drilling into his head all summer. Alla wrote : > Everyone expects me to do as well as others, but if I do, it's no > big deal, because they did it first. You never get anything new, > either, with five brothers. I've got Bill's old robes, Charlie's > old wand and Percy's old rat" PS/SS, paperback; am. ed., p.99-100. Del replies : This is the whole definition of Ron Weasley in a nutshell : he *must* be *another* brilliant Weasley boy. He must walk in the footsteps of his older brothers and not depart from them. No room for personal choices, no excuse for failure. Just look at the way Molly is angry with the twins for daring to depart from that pattern. She doesn't care what they *like*, she doesn't care what they *want*, she doesn't care about what they've *accomplished* : she's just mad at them for daring to do anything else but what she expected from them. They *must* be the new Bill, Charlie and Percy all together, and she doesn't want to listen to their reasons for not being so. It's the same with Ron : he *must* be another Bill, Charlie or Percy, or preferably all three together. Who *cares* about Ron !? Ron doesn't exist. Ron is just the label on the next embodiment of that most desirable concept : the Perfect Weasley Boy. Ron isn't allowed to have his own identity. On the contrary, his identity is defined for him by his mother : the Next Perfect Weasley Boy. The fact that Ron doesn't get anything new is very important too, because it reinforces that feeling that Ron has, that he's only the next one in the line of Weasley boys : he's an extension of Bill through the robes, of Charlie through the wand and of Percy through the rat. He's not Ron, he's just an extension of his older brothers. A look at Ron's behaviour at school is quite enlightening : he doesn't work hard, and he keeps breaking rules. In other words, he's resisting, both passively and actively, every rule his parents have laid for him. And it works ! The fact that Molly is so surprised when Ron gets to be Prefect shows that she *had* abandoned all hope for Ron to be the Next Perfect Weasley Boy. Ron has succeeded in creating a vaccuum of identity : he doesn't know who he is, but he managed to stop his mom for telling him who he should be. And when he gets the Prefect badge, the twins make sure that Molly won't turn on the NPWB scheme again, by forcing Ron to pretend he's not awfully proud to be a Prefect. They help maintain that vaccum of identity, they make sure Ron remains free of becoming who he wants. This helps explain where Ron got the courage to apply for the place of Keeper : he's building his own identity. If he had felt like his family wanted him to be in the team, he would have reverted straight back into his passive-aggressive pattern, and refused to try. That's one reason I so hope Ron is finally going to come shining through too : because I see him finally building his own identity, one that is nowhere as average as he's been until now. He was average because he refused to be his parents' creation, but now that he can choose who he wants to be, I see him working hard to achieve his goals. Very much like the Twins, in fact. Alla quoted : > "Ron had taken out a lumpy package and unwrapped it. There were > four sandwiches inside. He pulled one of them apart and said, "She > always forgets I don't like corned beef." PS/SS, p.101 Del replies : Well, excuse me, but if when I was 11, my mom had not been able to remember what foods I don't like (especially since Ron seems to like most foods, so the list of those he doesn't like must be very short), I would have been downright mad. I consider it a basic proof of love to make the effort to remember what your loved ones like to eat and wear. They are *people* with likes and dislikes, not animals submitted to the will of their caretaker. Alla quoted : > "Ron was admiring the cloak. "I'd give anything for one > of these," he said. "Anything. What is the matter?" ? PS/SS, p.201. Del replies : Huh ?? What's wrong with that one ? I think everyone must have said something like that, at one time. Whether it was about a piece of clothing, of jewellery, a Cd-player or a computer, a car or a bike, or whatever else, we've all said that in some way. Even Harry says, or at least thinks, something quite similar, when he's lusting for the Firebolt in the window-shop, at the beginning of PoA. Alla quoted : > "Why aren't you wearing yours, Ron?" George demanded. > "Come on, get it on, they're lovely and warm." > "I hate maroon," Ron moaned halfheartedly as he pulled it > over his head." ? PS/SS, p.202 Del replies : Why do you think the twins tease Ron about wearing his jumper ? Because they know he hates maroon. Molly should, too. That's the basic of gift-giving : making sure you're not offering something that the person *reputedly* doesn't like. If one of my friends offered me a pink fluffy cardigan, I'd be severely disappointed, and I would wonder how much that so-called friend actually cares about me, if they don't even know how much I hate pink, and fluffy clothes. Alla quoted : > "It's a bit small," said Ron quickly. "Not like that > room you had with the Muggles. And I am right underneath the ghoul in > the attic; he is always banging on the pipes and groaning " > But Harry, grinning wildly, said, "This is the best house > I've ever been in." > Ron's ears went pink" ?CoS, am.ed., p.41 Del replies : No, Alla, please not this one ! It's so OBVIOUSLY a direct parallel to what many many MANY people do every day ! Ron is afraid of making a bad impression on Harry, he's afraid his best pal will think little of his home and most particularly of his room. He's seen Harry's room, and he's afraid Harry will regret it, because it's bigger and quieter. So he apologises in advance. I do that all the time !! Alla quoted : > "Wish I hadn't bought this now," said Ron, gesturing at his dancing > shamrock hat and gazing longingly at the Omnioculars. > "Three pairs," said Harry firmly to the wizard. > "No-don't bother," said Ron, going red. He was always touchy about > the fact that Harry, who had inherited a small fortune from his > parents, had much more money than he did." - GoF, p.94, amer.ed. Del replies : What's wrong with being touchy because you're poor ?? I was poor too, and I was touchy about it too. I would pretend that I kept wearing the same outfit because I liked it. I would pretend that we never went on holidays anywhere exotic because we liked it too much at my grand-father's (and that was one BIG lie). I would pretend that I never went skiing because my knees hurt when I was on skies (I *never* put a foot on a ski...). I would pretend that I bought all the trendy discs (when in fact I taped the songs on the radio). I don't even know if I ever revealed to anyone but my closest friends that we still had a black-and-white TV by the time I finished high school. And I sure didn't like it when other people were offering me charity ! Especially since half of those who did manage to, made me pay after a while, one way or another. Alla quoted : > "Well, they `re okay!" said Ron angrily, looking at Harry's robes, > Why couldn't I have something like that?" ? GoF, p.156 Del replies : Mom's Ron just bought his 14-year-old boy maroon girl-gown-like robes... Alla wrote : > Is it a mortal sin for Ron to complain about his poorness? Surely > not, BUT it does get very annoying. I am expecting Ron to put things > in perspective by now. Del replies : I don't find that annoying at all. I'm even surprised at how little Ron complains. I had friends who complained 10 times more, even though they were nowhere as poor as Ron. And what perspective are you talking about exactly ? Ron IS poor, no perspective is going to change that. Ron never pretended he was the saddest boy in the world because he's poor. He only stated that he doesn't like being poor. Whichever way he looks at it won't change that fact : Ron is poor and it makes some aspects of his life hard. You know, it's not like Harry is telling him about his problems and Ron interrupts him to say : "Yeah, well, I know, you've got that scar that hurts, and LV is trying to kill you, but honestly mate, look at me ! I'm poor !" Whenever Ron complains, it's always during the flow of normal life, when everything is as close to normal as possible, when Harry is just his best mate Harry, not Harry-Potter-whose-life-sucks, and Ron can allow himself to be just Ron, who happens to hate being poor. Harry sees nothing wrong with that, quite the contrary : he understands Ron and he tries his best to help. And I sure don't see anything wrong either. Huh, sorry for the long post and the psycho-babble, but hey ! You were looking for ir ;-) Del From suzie_t666 at hotmail.com Wed Jul 14 12:08:13 2004 From: suzie_t666 at hotmail.com (Paul Smith) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:08:13 -0000 Subject: HBP is Riddle (plus some reasons why) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106179 Okay, I've read back about 500 posts looking for a similar idea to mine and have found nothing, so now with time running short on my internet usage for the day hopefully my suggestion won't have been heard before. It is that Tom Riddle is the Half-Blood Prince. I even have a couple of reasons to back this up. The first is that JKR said she considered HBP as the title for the second book, which says to me the HBP is in CoS. After briefly trying to find ways to justify Hagrid being the HBP, I realised my second reason. Whilst JKR has explicitly informed us that the HBP is not Harry or Voldemort, is she making use of something clever she did in CoS to throw us off the track? I'm talking of Dobby telling Harry that the plot at Hogwarts had nothing to do with Voldemort. Of course he meant that it was to do with Tom Riddle, apparently a completely different person before his transformations. Is JKR using the same trick? I think it very possible. The royalty thing had me befuddled too (well done to those who noticed the book Sirius used on the spider creature), and the only ideas I have on that are Voldemort calling himself a Lord, and the Riddle family owning the large, stately house that they do. I'd always assumed that they had it through money, but perhaps it was theirs through a title... Thanks for reading if you have, knowing JKR she'll have made that comment to make us think she's using the same trick as Dobby, but I'd love it to be true, then we might be learning lots more about Riddle's childhood and background, which I'm very interested in, especially the transformations he underwent. Let me know your thoughts, Suze. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 12:47:10 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:47:10 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106180 GEO wrote : > Ever heard about grinning and bearing it, complaining isn't going to > change anything. Del replies : I guess YOU never complain, right ? GEO wrote : > Point of the matter is compared to Harry, he has nothing to complain > about. Del replies : Point of the matter is, in your logic, compared to Harry, *nobody* has nothing to complain about. I don't think like that. I, Del, wrote : > I fail to miss your point : we should dismiss Ron's insecurities > just because he's a teenager and all teenagers are insecure, is that > it ? GEO ansered : > Yes, it's a phase for them imo. Del replies : This is the most heartless thing I've heard for a long time. I, Del, wrote : > > Careerwise ? What's that got to do with anything ? I'm talking > > emotional health here, and we know of at least one brother who's > > obviously unbalanced. GEO answered : > Who? Except for Percy walking away from his family, Del replies : Exactly. Del From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Jul 14 13:22:45 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 13:22:45 -0000 Subject: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106181 tina: >> When re-reading the book, I have the urge to skip straight ahead from once the group is caught in Umbridge's office to 'The Lost Prophecy' chapter. It is too painful and too ironic. Harry was disillusioned and it is so frustrating to read because this seems out of character. Of course, I can't wait to see what happens to Kreacher for his role in this most unfortunate plot. I can only hope that he will have learned to listen to the voice of reason (specifically that of Hermione).<< Pippin: It's a painful chapter to read for me, too, but not because Harry seems out of character. In fact he acts very much in character for a fifteen year old boy. I can remember doing things when I was fifteen that would have had my eleven-year-old self gaping in horror (and rightly so.) Part of becoming a teen is discovering that you are capable of a greater range of emotion than you were as a child--the mental practices that made younger Harry such a stoic don't work any more. But because Harry's never been in a blind panic before, he doesn't realize it, and doesn't realize he's lost control of himself. Plus his scar is prickling --Voldemort is still messing with his mind. Harry actually wasn't without means of communicating with the Order--if he'd only thought of it he could have sent Ginny and Luna back to Hogwarts to find Snape and tell him what was happening. And if Hermione hadn't been in a panic about the state that Harry was in, she'd have thought of that too. The whole tragedy might have been averted. But it really isn't out of character for teenagers to panic and act foolishly--that's why they're considered too young for the Order in the first place. Harry acted exactly the way Fred and George did when Arthur was injured. I admit it's not in character for a superhero. But then, you see, I've never thought that Harry was supposed to be a superhero at all. Pippin From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Wed Jul 14 13:34:40 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 13:34:40 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle - Riddle murders In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106182 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > But the incident happened the summer before Tom returned to Hogwarts > as Head Boy, so he could quite easily have been seventeen already--a > fully qualified wizard who had passed his O.W.L.s and had his > apparating license. No one would have been watching him. Ah, now, this is the question I'm trying to settle for myself. Is it certain that the killings took place between Tom's 6th and 7th years? Is that in the books somewhere? I haven't been able to pin it down in the text. It's been suggested that they might have been killed AFTER Tom's 7th year, just after leaving Hogwarts. (Maybe a graduation present to himself?) I don't know if it makes a great deal of difference; it just seems creepier to me to think of a kid committing these crimes, then going back to school as if nothing had happened. > > A more important question to me is how Tom got away without being > suspected as the murderer by the Muggle authorities. Unless he was > disinherited, he'd have been heir to the estate, and if he was > disinherited, he'd have a motive (revenge). Also, the Muggle gardener, > Frank Bryce, claimed to have seen a pale, dark-haired teenage boy near > the house on that day (GoF Am. ed. 3). If the Muggle authorities knew > that Riddle Sr. had a (disowned) son and knew where he lived, why > didn't they suspect him and come after him? [SNIP] The marriage > itself may not have been a secret, but Tom Sr. would have washed his > hands of his wife through a divorce or dissolution (what's the word > for a marriage that's wiped from the record as if it never existed?) > and arranged for the baby to be born far away. I've always thought it would have been a stronger plot if Tom had been illegitimate, but alas, as someone pointed out to me, the word "wife" was indeed used, so we have to assume that a lot of cumbersome legal machinery and paperwork went grinding away in the background to result in a legitimate son and heir somehow being obliterated as if he'd never existed. Of course, we only have Voldemort's word for it that his parents WERE married, but I think if Rowling had intended for us to think that Tom was illegitimate, she would have written it that way before now. Wanda From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 13:37:51 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 13:37:51 -0000 Subject: Ron (was Hermione's Reaction to... ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106183 Mayeaux wrote : > Del, Del, Del....It seems to me after reading a good portion of your > posts that you're making it seem as if Ron should be the *central* > character in the HP series...IMO! Del replies : Sorry for not starting each and every single sentence by "I know that Harry is the hero, he will be the one who saves the day in the end, but I thought it'd be nice if..." I NEVER EVER EVER said that I wanted Ron to be the hero and central character of the books. And I never will. Mayeaux wrote : > It's called Harry Potter and "___" for a reason. It's essentially > about Harry Potter and his life and all that it entails. His POV, > his interpretations of events, and his experiences are all important > to the series. Del replies : So ? Just because the books are about Harry doesn't mean Harry is the only one to whom good things can happen. It doesn't mean Harry is the only one who will reveal himself to be a hero in the end. There's way enough room for several heroes in the Potterverse, and different kinds of hero too. Just because other people will get their part of glory won't detract from Harry's glory. There's no need to be so over-protective of Harry : he *will* shine, I have no doubt of that, and most probably brightest of all. That doesn't mean others can't shine too. Mayeaux wrote : > With out him there really wouldn't be one now would there? In most > of your posts it has been 'Ron *deserves* this' 'Ron *needs* > this' 'He has to *have* that''It wouldn't be fair to Ron if this > happened'...and so on! Del replies : Because I was discussing *Ron*. Ron, not Harry. If you don't want to discuss Ron, if you can't be concerned by anybody but Harry, then leave me alone. I can be concerned by many people at the same time. And when discussing one person, I will concentrate on that person, mention that person's qualities and shortcomings, express my thoughts, hopes and doubts about that person, and that person only. That's the only way that seems fair to me : discussing someone in the absolute, not in the relative. I'm discussing Ron, not Ron-compared-to-Harry. Mayeaux wrote : > Let's build a bridge shall we... And even if a character can take on > a life of its own, as you stated in a previous post, with there only > being 2 books left in the series there's not much more room for him > to be *bigger* than what is intended by the author! Ron is Ron > because JKR writes him as such. Del replies : You're the one who is showing little respect to JKR. She's shown numerous times that she can develop a secondary character in a single book. So I won't put any limits to what she could do to a primary character like Ron. Mayeaux wrote : > Let's stick to canon "Ron" and not fanfic "Ron"! Del replies : As I told Arya yesterday, it's been *years* since I read my last HP fanfic, and even then I read less than a dozen. My Ron is strictly canon. Mayeaux wrote : > IMO it seemed as if you were running off at the mouth when you said > 'I don't care anymore what JKR has to say about Ron, not since she > proved that she's prejudiced against him'...Are you mad? It's her > character. Without them we wouldn't even be having this discussion > and you wouldn't have your precious Ron to talk about and defend! Del replies : I fail to see your point. If you mean that JKR can't dislike Ron because she wrote him, then go and read what she has to say about the Dursleys. If you mean that I should pay more attention to what JKR's opinon about Ron is, I'll answer that we can have differing opinion on her characters just as we would with RL people. She knows more about Ron than I do, true, and it might be those reasons that make her dislike him, but it doesn't mean that those reasons will make *me* dislike him. When she writes more about him, when (if) she reveals things that in her mind make her dislike Ron, maybe they will make me love him even more. Just because JKR doesn't like someone doesn't mean that person is unworthy of love and interest and championing, in RL as well as in her books. I don't have to love all the characters she loves and only the characters she loves. And we do *not* know what she will write. Neville was a joke in the first books. Look what he's become. Mayeaux wrote : > Could you show a little respect to the woman who has given us a > window (more like a gateway) into her world of: love, honor, > courage, loss, pain, sorrow, regret, loyalty, friendship, and most > of all MAGIC! Who are you to say what JKR has control over anymore > or not? The character of Ron might have taken on a life of its own > in a way, but it is still ultimately up to JKR where it will end!!!! Del replies : I'm actually showing JKR the greatest sign of respect any author could dream of : I'm INVESTING myself in her books, I'm caring for some of her characters, I'm actively hoping for some things to happen. JKR has control over many things, but not over the way I read her books and invest myself in them. She might *hope* that I will care for Harry more than anything else, but she can't force me too. And yes of course, it's up to JKR how it will all end. I never denied that. But that doesn't mean I can't hope for specific things. I have every right to care about a character, even if I know he's not the one who will defeat LV in the end, and hope that this character will reveal himself to be a true hero too, and that he will shine in his own right too. Del From mnaperrone at aol.com Wed Jul 14 13:44:00 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 13:44:00 -0000 Subject: What about Snape (Was: HP and the Half Blood Git) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106184 > > Carol responds: > > I'm assuming, first, that you want him to live rather than die > > redeeming himself, which I think half the list anticipates as his > > fate. > > > > > > I personally think that he shouldn't have to put up with > > "dunderheads," or they with him, and I think his services to > > Dumbledore deserve more recognition than they'll ever receive, by > > their very nature. Adan wrote: > You are right in the assumption that I'd prefer Snape to live. I > think I just can't decide what I'd want for him because it still > isn't clear just exactly who he is yet. If he truly hates kids and > teaching, then I wouldn't want him to continue teaching. For his > sake and for theirs. If he's done things to earn respect, then I > hope he gets it. If he doesn't, well... > > Once I know the WHO then I can decide on the WHAT. Mostly, I think I > just want his story. I want the WHY. Ally: I agree with you Adan - I'm not sure what I want for Snape, mainly because JKR hasn't really shown us who he is. I think death in some honorable self-sacrificial way is a possibility, although to some extent, I see Snape as too mean to die (or maybe that's sort of wishful thinking). Given how JKR likes to torment him, I could also see him being turned down for the DADA job one more time or being offered the DADA job only to have his replacement be so horrifying to Snape (Neville perhaps?) that Snape willingly turns down the DADA job. I keep waiting for some of the mystery to be resolved in Book 6, but I strongly suspect that JKR will leave us with even bigger question marks about Snape at the end of that one (grumble, grumble). From sherriola at earthlink.net Wed Jul 14 13:59:55 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 07:59:55 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron's "poor me" syndrome. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001101c469aa$d8b03580$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 106185 Alla: > Is it a mortal sin for Ron to complain about his poorness? Surely > not, BUT it does get very annoying. I am expecting Ron to put things > in perspective by now. Katie: Ron's minor complaints may annoying to you, but I find them realistic and at times almost endearing. I read over your list of quotes and couldn't help but think, "so what?" Ron's life *IS* hard. I don't think he's a constant complainer. (I agree quite firmly with Del on all this, except on the matter of Molly and Arthur, who I think are remarkably loving parents even under difficult circumstances.) And if you can't talk about annoyances with your friends, who can you talk to? Give me an ordinary, sometimes slightly self-pitying buddy over a "chin up! can-do!" type any day. -Katie Sherry Yes, I find Ron's complaints, actually somewhat endearing, just part of him. They never seem to annoy Harry. Also, Ron has his poorness thrown into his face and mocked repeatedly by people like the Malfoys. When this happens he always tries to attack the person, and it's Harry and Hermione holding him back. It doesn't seem to me that he's ashamed of his family and their circumstances, just complains from time to time, to his best friend, which should very much be ok. I've been going through a difficult situation for the last year. I don't want someone, a friend, to be totally down with me, but I don't want someone to give me the ah, it will be ok, type of line either. I always see Ron's complaints just as conversation, his humor as a true necessity to keep Harry amused. I find Hermione's know-it-all attitude far more irritating, because I hate to have someone always telling me what to do. I'd have tuned her out a long time ago. Both Ron and Hermione have had an incident in the books, where they have gone, alone with Harry, into a dangerous situation--Ron in CoS and Hermione in POA. Both have acted bravely and loyally. They both have strengths and knowledge Harry does not. He wouldn't be where he is now, if either of them hadn't been who they are. Sherry G From squeakinby at tds.net Wed Jul 14 14:27:09 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:27:09 -0400 Subject: Wormtail Message-ID: <40F542BD.7020104@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 106186 Apropos of nothing being said on the list at the moment, I was just given a headsup (for another reason completely) to C.S. Lewis' The Screwtape Letters in which a demon, Screwtape, instructs his wannabe diabolical nephew, Wormwood. Here's part of the Patricia Klein review from Amazon (and it's okay, it falls under fair use) "Each letter is a masterpiece of reverse theology, giving the reader an inside look at the thinking and means of temptation. Tempters, according to Lewis, have two motives: the first is fear of punishment, the second a hunger to consume or dominate other beings. On the other hand, the goal of the Creator is to woo us unto himself or to transform us through his love from "tools into servants and servants into sons." It is the dichotomy between being consumed and subsumed completely into another's identity or being liberated to be utterly ourselves that Lewis explores with his razor-sharp insight and wit." Just an interesting Inkling moment. Jem From sherriola at earthlink.net Wed Jul 14 14:32:55 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 08:32:55 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001b01c469af$74dd4cf0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 106187 GEO wrote : > Point of the matter is compared to Harry, he has nothing to complain > about. Del replies : Point of the matter is, in your logic, compared to Harry, *nobody* has nothing to complain about. I don't think like that. Sherry now I'm astonished to hear so many people say Ron has nothing to complain about compared to Harry. Each person is living their own life, their own existence. Compared to the next person, it might seem their struggles or problems are small, but the next person is not living it. I am always amazed, for instance, that adults can find the problems of little children so unimportant. Maybe, to a grown up with responsibilities, A little girl's broken doll is not important, but to that little girl, it is her whole world and dreadfully tragic. Her feelings aren't any less valuable than the adult's feelings, just because the doll isn't important to the adult. Occasionally I meet people who tell me that their problems are nothing compared to mine, because I have disabilities. I always think that's nuts. I'm not in their shoes, and I don't think their feelings, hurts or disappointments mean nothing, just because I am disabled. In fact, I think my disability is such a small problem, though it seems large to many others. Yet, I have problems, (non disability related) and I resent someone telling me my grief, heartbreak or emotional pain isn't as important as theirs, because it isn't as serious a situation or I haven't experienced it as long as they have. I recently had a friend do this, and it baffles me, since I have always stood by her through her problems, and expected my friend to support me through mine. Each person is in our own space, experiencing our own feelings, and nobody's are more important or less than anyone else's. Harry would be an arrogant and very distasteful person, if he cared so little for his friends as to think their problems weren't important next to his. In fact, in OOTP, the times I really disliked Harry were when he was nasty and hateful about and toward his friends. As the book moved on and he began to appreciate them and treat them fairly and like partners again, I started to feel much better about Harry. Otherwise, he's about on the emotional level of Voldemort, if he continued to think other people's feelings have no value. Sherry G From squeakinby at tds.net Wed Jul 14 14:40:16 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:40:16 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: <001b01c469af$74dd4cf0$0400a8c0@pensive> References: <001b01c469af$74dd4cf0$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: <40F545D0.3050709@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 106188 Sherry Gomes wrote: >> I'm astonished to hear so many people say Ron has nothing to complain about > compared to Harry. Each person is living their own life, their own > existence. Compared to the next person, it might seem their struggles or > problems are small, but the next person is not living it. I loved your post, Sherry. Excellent life advice. Brava! I'm still of a mind that the fact that Harry comes from Little Whinging is not insignificant. I go no further than that as my wand is not at hand to be drawn this morning. Jem From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 14:46:19 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:46:19 -0000 Subject: "M**blood" and handicap (was Re: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106189 Carol wrote : > On another level, the prejudice isn't against "race" or even "blood"; > it's against Muggles, nonmagical people, whom the purebloods in > general and the Slytherins in particular have been taught to view as > inherently inferior, having to resort to "eckeltricity" because they > have no magical ability. Del replies : This is something that has been bothering me for a while : the WW attitude towards the Muggles. But I think the very best analogy in this case is not race, but handicap. The wizards (*all* of them) see the Muggles as handicapped, because they don't have magic. Well, technically there are kind of right. What I mind though, is that they seem to consider that because they are handicapped, the Muggles can't bring any worthwhile contribution to the world. They completely dismiss all of the Muggles' accomplishments as just a way to cope with their handicap. Electricity, for example. Even Arthur, the most Muggle-loving wizard we know, can't even pronounce it correctly. Granted, electricity doesn't work where there's magic. But that doesn't mean that it should be considered as nothing. I mean, I don't read Braille, I couldn't read a book in Braille if my life depended on it, but I do acknowledge its ingeniosity and usefulness. Seen in that light, it's more easily understandable why some pure-bloods are against the Muggle-borns : because they bring a *disability* into the WW. Both their parents are disabled, handicapped, and it's just a lucky chance that they are not too. But who knows what it's going to do in the future ? Maybe their kids or grandkids will be disabled too ? After all, even in our more tolerant world, handicapped people and their children still suffer from a very real stigma. It's getting more and more okay to marry someone with a different skin colour, but marrying a "short person" ? Someone blind ? Someone with no arms ? How many times do those people who do marry handicapped people will have to hear the same remarks and questions again and again : "the two of you are so different, it's never going to work" "you live in two different worlds" "how do you manage ?" And worst of all : "Are you sure your kids won't have it ?" and "do you realise the burden it is going to be for your kids ?" Tolerance, indeed. In the light of that analogy, I think the problem with the word "Mudblood" is not so much that it is an insult, but that it is acknowledging a truth that nobody else wants to hear. Basically, when Draco calls Hermione a Mudblood, he mocks her parents for being disabled. And if everyone reacts so strongly, it's not because they disagree with the statement (they *all* agree on that fact) but because they've been taught that it's rude to remind those poor Muggle-born kids that their parents are disabled. It's just like when Draco tells the Weasley kids that their mother could afford to lose some weight : it's true, but nice people don't say it. Only people who want to hurt and insult you will point that out. I know I was always a bit surprised by the strength of the reaction the word created. To me, that smelled of guilty conscience. I mean, even if someone insulted my friend on the basis that he's Black or Jew, I wouldn't react so strongly, even if they used an insulting word. I'd say "Yes he's Black, or Jew, and so what ??". But *nobody* reacts that way in the WW. And it makes sense : it's because they *all* have guilty conscience. They *all* believe that indeed Muggles are disabled, and thus inferior and useless, but they won't let anyone dare saying it out loud. Del From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 14:52:36 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:52:36 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106190 Paul wrote : > lately we have as an arguement for our ship that loosing the girl from > the other is not fair or a mistreatment!!! Del replies : It wasn't an argument, it was my personal feeling. I would just happen to hurt badly for a guy if the girl he's been fancying for years decided to go out with that guy's best friend. In HP or in RL. It hurts me, that's all. Del From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 15:07:30 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 15:07:30 -0000 Subject: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106191 Pippin wrote : > It's a painful chapter to read for me, too, but not because Harry > seems out of character. In fact he acts very much in character for > a fifteen year old boy. Del replies : Yes, he acts as a typical 15-year-old. That's my problem. Harry pretty much never acted as a typical boy before, in critical situations. He was always more mature, more calm, more *adult*. That's the way he was during the first 4 books, and then suddenly kaboom ! He's just a 15-year-old. That's what I meant by "out of character". I'm not saying it's an impossible discrepancy either. I know that in the eyes of many readers, Harry's change of behaviour looked very true-to-life. But somehow JKR never managed to bend *my* vision (I felt like climbing up the walls out of frustration when reading the first chapters of OoP, and even though the frustration got slightly better as I read on, the feeling of being detached from Harry, of not understanding him anymore, only grew worse), and so I'm not able to read the scene the right way. It doesn't work for me, that's all. Del From cincimaelder at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 11:47:33 2004 From: cincimaelder at yahoo.com (cincimaelder) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 11:47:33 -0000 Subject: Harry's future... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106192 I'm not sure if anyone has ever suggested this because I'm fairly new to this board, but I believe Harry will be the Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher at the end of the series. He's great at this subject and was a wonderful teacher for DA. Also, there are 2 things that bother me and I would like to know if anyone has any thoughts... - Should Ron really be a Prefect? I can see why Hermione was chosen, but really not sure why Ron deserved it. - When Harry was teaching DA the Patronus charm in OoP, they seemed to do better than Harry did on his first shot at it. Both Cho and Hermione where able to summon an animal, and all Harry was able to manage at first was some wisps vapor. From pennygbrooks at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 12:05:09 2004 From: pennygbrooks at yahoo.com (Penny Brooks) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:05:09 -0000 Subject: Snape as an Occlumens Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106193 I have a question, and I've done some searching of files to see if it's been discussed previously--I haven't found anything, so hopefully it hasn't. Here goes: In OooP, we learn that Snape is an occlumens, and presumably a legilimens, when he has to teach Harry occlumency. What I'm wondering is: why hasn't Snape used this skill before? There are many situations in the previous books where Snape has accused Harry of doing things he did/didn't do, and if he were penetrate minds, as he does in the occlumency lessons, why didn't he do so at those times to learn the truth? An example...in CoS, Hermione steals ingredients from the potions cupboard, but Snape accuses Harry...all he'd have to do is a little mind-reading, and he'd know it wasn't him. It seems that Snape's animosity for Harry would give him a propensity to do a little mind-reading on Harry. From clr1971 at alltel.net Wed Jul 14 15:15:02 2004 From: clr1971 at alltel.net (Christina in GA) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 11:15:02 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 4883 References: <1089355729.32487.60987.m13@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <014b01c469b5$56085440$c800000a@crouton> No: HPFGUIDX 106194 Chris: Secondly has JKR in her infinite wisdom avoided >answering this question by only having Lily as the only >Muggle-born with a sister or will Dean/Hermione have a >brother/sister that is magical? Christina: Colin Creevy is muggle born and has a brother - Dennis. JKR did say she was going to have Hermione have a younger sister but that it is too late to introduce her now. Christina in GA Visit my Ebay Store! http://stores.ebay.com/pineywoodsbooks?refid=store From lysandrabellargus at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 14 12:53:59 2004 From: lysandrabellargus at yahoo.co.uk (Sandra) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:53:59 -0000 Subject: HBP is Riddle (plus some reasons why) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106195 Hi suzie wrote: > Okay, I've read back about 500 posts looking for a similar idea to > mine and have found nothing, no wonder with so many posts, but it was there - an I guess it has been posted before too - (post 105464 by me, Sandra) My reasoning went on a similar track that JKR's quote about the HBP not being neither Harry nor Voldemort, and `that's all I am going to say on THAT subject', could be a kind of Dobby'esk clue like in CoS. But I am not convinced myself. What do we know about Tom Riddle becoming LV? We know that Dumbledore addresses him as Tom in OoP, and we know that Tom has used the name LV with his closest friends (future DE?)when he was at school. Could it be that Tom rejected the muggle half in him so much, that he kind of killed Tom to fully become the powerful yet heartless LV? Dumbledore says in OoP to Tom/LV: `there are other ways of destroying a man than killing him' (not exact quote, sorry) the connection between CoS and book six ... to do with this backstory of Tom/LV... and then comes message 106085 By boyd_smythe Subject: TBAY: PS I LOVE ME LETS KISS (very long unifying theory) ------------------------------ One explanation answers all three questions. Tom *chose* to become the Heir of Slytherin through his actions: he sought the Chamber and attempted to finish what Salazar started nearly 1000 years earlier (Canon 4). And by so choosing, he became more like Salazar for a very simple reason; just as Harry received some aspects of Voldemort (e.g. Parselmouth) at Godric's Hollow, Tom Riddle received some of Slytherin's essence in the Chamber of Secrets. In short, Tom Riddle is the Heir of Slytherin simply because he was literally granted the powers of Slytherin-not through the vagaries of bloodlines; but directly from some essence of Slytherin in the Chamber. At this point, recognizing that he has changed, Tom begins to call himself Lord Voldemort. What is this essence of Salazar? The clues: as far as we know, Salazar disappeared; he left for his Heir a Chamber that would win his fight centuries hence; and this Heir would somehow win the victory forever, perhaps through achieving immortality. We've also seen the diary-memory of Tom Riddle nearly become real many years later, and we've seen Lord Voldemort's unending quest for eternal life. Put it all together the essence of Salazar is a memory much like Tom Riddle's diary, but this memory is of a powerful adult wizard at the height of his powers. So Slytherin created a memory in some vessel (perhaps a diary, perhaps not), which waited in the Chamber for an Heir to come, and now has merged with that Heir. Salazar now shares the body of Tom Riddle, one snake (the symbol of Slytherin) "in essence divided" (inhabited by two beings). So Salazar now inhabits Tom Riddle a.k.a. Lord Voldemort.> I. L.O.V.E. M.E. L.E.T.S. K.I.S.S. (Parasitic Salazar Is a Layer Of Voldemort, Evildoing Most Egregiously. Love Ends Tom's Spell. Kedavra Is Still Smarting.) ------------- so I think could board this vessel - with my life vest on, and the shore, with book 6 and 7, in sight though ; ) Sandra From n.crins at planet.nl Wed Jul 14 13:19:58 2004 From: n.crins at planet.nl (niekycrins) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 13:19:58 -0000 Subject: Prefects and points In-Reply-To: <40F56FC5.24487.1F469B3@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106196 Cathy Drolet wrote: > > > Even Fred and George know the only choice of Prefects is to hand > out > > punishments. They never say "Dock us house points? Big deal." because > > they know prefects can't dock house points. Hermione was involved in > > both situations quoted above. In my OOTP p.597 Ernie says to Malfoy "you can't take points from fellow prefects". So prefects can take points from other students, not from other prefects. Members of the Inquisitorial Squad can dock points from prefects. Nieky From allisonotto at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 13:50:03 2004 From: allisonotto at gmail.com (allison_m_otto) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 13:50:03 -0000 Subject: Ron's "poor me" syndrome. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106197 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > Alla wrote : > > hereare som examples of Ron's endless complaining of how poor he is. > Allison: I just don't think he's complaining that much. > > "Five," said Ron. For some reason, he was looking gloomy. > > "I'm the sixth in our family to go to Hogwarts. You could say I've > > got a lot to live up to. > Allison: Complaining about being overshadowed by the rest of your family doesn't mean you're poor. If the Weasleys were the richest family in Britain and Ron had five older brothers who were all top of their class at Eton and went on to become barristers or something, he would feel the same way. And for an 11-year-old, it's totally natural. > > Alla wrote : > > Everyone expects me to do as well as others, but if I do, it's no > > big deal, because they did it first. You never get anything new, > > either, with five brothers. I've got Bill's old robes, Charlie's > > old wand and Percy's old rat" PS/SS, paperback; am. ed., p.99-100. > Allison: Yes, he's acknowledging that he has a lot of hand-me-downs. I had some, too. It happens in big families even when you're not poor, to reduce the waste of tossing something when one child is done with it. But Ron's also doing something else here - Harry's just said he wished he had four wizard brothers. Ron's saying it's not all that great. He is complaining, but he's also expressing (on a fairly stressful day) his worst fears - that the other students won't accept him because he's not as good as his brothers and he doesn't have nice things. Saying "I hope no one makes fun of my clothes" isn't the same as saying "I hate being poor." > Alla quoted : > > "Ron had taken out a lumpy package and unwrapped it. There were > > four sandwiches inside. He pulled one of them apart and said, "She > > always forgets I don't like corned beef." PS/SS, p.101 > > Del replies : > Well, excuse me, but if when I was 11, my mom had not been able to > remember what foods I don't like (especially since Ron seems to like > most foods, so the list of those he doesn't like must be very short), > I would have been downright mad. I consider it a basic proof of love > to make the effort to remember what your loved ones like to eat and > wear. They are *people* with likes and dislikes, not animals submitted > to the will of their caretaker. Allison: Actually, my mom often forgot whether I liked mustard on my sandwiches or really hated rye bread. She had two children (nowhere near seven) and a job. She had a lot on her mind, and I didn't think she loved me less because she forgot that it was my brother who liked Swiss cheese and not me. Likewise, in families where there isn't a lot of money to waste, if something has been bought to eat and one child doesn't like it, that one child is going to eat it anyway. Also, I think what Ron is really doing here is what Del says later - he's apologizing for Molly to the new kid (Harry) he expects has grown up like a prince. He complains without thinking first that he hates corned beef, but he immediately says that she doesn't have a lot of time, with so many children. He's not complaining about this; he's providing an excuse so that Harry doesn't think his mum is just lazy or careless about her kids. snip > > Alla quoted : > > "Why aren't you wearing yours, Ron?" George demanded. > > "Come on, get it on, they're lovely and warm." > > "I hate maroon," Ron moaned halfheartedly as he pulled it > > over his head." ? PS/SS, p.202 > > Del replies : > Why do you think the twins tease Ron about wearing his jumper ? > Because they know he hates maroon. Molly should, too. That's the basic > of gift-giving : making sure you're not offering something that the > person *reputedly* doesn't like. If one of my friends offered me a > pink fluffy cardigan, I'd be severely disappointed, and I would wonder > how much that so-called friend actually cares about me, if they don't > even know how much I hate pink, and fluffy clothes. Allison: Again, this isn't him complaining about being poor. We have no indication that Molly made him a maroon jumper because maroon yarn was cheaper. And I doubt she forgot that maroon sometimes looks odd on redheads, being that she is one herself and all of her children have red hair. She probably thinks maroon looks cute on Ron, or it's the color she dressed him in as a baby or something. I can easily envision the yearly Christmas jumper scenario: Ron: "Mum, you know I hate maroon." Molly: "Oh hush, put it on, it looks lovely." Ron: grumble grumble but puts it on anyway Molly: "See?" This is easy to envision because it's exactly what happens with Fred and George. He only complains "halfheartedly," because this happens every year and he's resigned to the fact that Molly made him the maroon kid. This doesn't mean she doesn't love him enough or doesn't pay attention to his likes and dislikes. If he really hated the jumpers, he wouldn't wear them at school regardless of F&G. Frankly, if my mother - or anyone else - took the time to knit me a sweater I'd love it regardless of color. I think that Ron probably secretly feels the same way, which is why he wears it. Remember, Percy sending back his jumper in OoP was a cardinal sin for the Weasleys - because it's not about the jumper, it's about Molly expressing her love for her children by knitting them something warm and soft. > > Alla quoted : > > "It's a bit small," said Ron quickly. "Not like that > > room you had with the Muggles. And I am right underneath the ghoul in > > the attic; he is always banging on the pipes and groaning " > > But Harry, grinning wildly, said, "This is the best house > > I've ever been in." > > Ron's ears went pink" ?CoS, am.ed., p.41 > > Del replies : > No, Alla, please not this one ! It's so OBVIOUSLY a direct parallel to > what many many MANY people do every day ! Ron is afraid of making a > bad impression on Harry, he's afraid his best pal will think little of > his home and most particularly of his room. He's seen Harry's room, > and he's afraid Harry will regret it, because it's bigger and quieter. > So he apologises in advance. I do that all the time !! Allison: I agree. He knows Harry wasn't treated well, but he's seen that Harry obviously grew up in a fairly affluent environment. The fact that Harry didn't reap the benefits of the Dursleys' middle-class status doesn't mean he couldn't look down on someone who had a lot less money. Ron's still a little afraid that Harry, never having seen firsthand how the Weasleys live, might make an unfavorable comparison with other people. So Ron does it first. > > Alla quoted : > > "Wish I hadn't bought this now," said Ron, gesturing at his dancing > > shamrock hat and gazing longingly at the Omnioculars. > > "Three pairs," said Harry firmly to the wizard. > > "No-don't bother," said Ron, going red. He was always touchy about > > the fact that Harry, who had inherited a small fortune from his > > parents, had much more money than he did." - GoF, p.94, amer.ed. > Allison: Ron does get touchy. But it's not really about being poor so much as it's about Harry always being better - Harry's the hero, the famous one, the star Quidditch player, and also the one who has money to throw around. Even though Harry's always nice about his money, of course Ron would sometimes get a little bitter that Harry seems to have everything. But in this clipped scene, he's not even bitter. He's *embarrassed* that he can't afford what Harry can, and he feels bad about Harry buying him things. That's not complaining; it's normal teenage feelings of inadequacy. > Alla quoted : > > "Well, they `re okay!" said Ron angrily, looking at Harry's robes, > > Why couldn't I have something like that?" ? GoF, p.156 > > Del replies : > Mom's Ron just bought his 14-year-old boy maroon girl-gown-like robes... Allison: True - Ron's just been horrified by what he's expected to wear at school in front of all his friends, and that shock is compounded by seeing that Molly's bought something nicer for Harry, who's not even her son. Notice that in the next part Molly has to tell Ron that his are less nice because they had to be bought secondhand - Ron didn't think of that himself. He's not complaining about being poor in this quote - it didn't even occur to him right away that he got bad robes because they're poor. He's just complaining that Harry's are nicer. Altogether, Ron's a boy from a poor family at a school where a lot of the kids appear to be well-off - especially the other purebloods, and a lot of the other Gryffindors (for example, Neville, Lavender, Parvati, Harry all have new things, nice dress robes, etc). Del's right that he doesn't complain very often, and when he does it's a passing remark when he gets frustrated because something of his doesn't work or doesn't look right. Most people, unless they're very wealthy, occasionally wish they could afford something better. Ron's unfortunate enough to be surrounded by a lot of kids who *can* afford better things than his. But judging by his reaction to Percy's letter in OoP, I'd say Ron would choose his family's lack of wealth over Percy's ambition to succeed and make more money. That, to me, shows that he has character and that he appreciates what's really important. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 15:35:10 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 15:35:10 -0000 Subject: Discussing (was Hermione's Reaction to... ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106198 Paul wrote : > I was just tired from the endless repetition of the same points the > last couple of months since I became a member of this group. (snip) > I suggest we find together a better way to analyse the love aspects > of this Saga. Del replies : Dear Paul, if you can find such a better way, or even indeed any *new* way to analyse *anything* in the books, many of us will be greatly thankful to you !! I'm not kidding. One reason so many threads end up in boxing matches is because we've already studied all the most obvious points again and again and again, to death and beyond. We almost know them by heart now. Sometimes, when I see an obvious newbie asking a question that the older posters could answer in their sleep, I have a surge of irritation. And then right after that, I feel something very much like jealousy : "Boy, that one is still *that* innocent, s/he has still so much to discover !" That's why most of the time I resist the urge to reply and to give them a digest of the conclusions the group came to the last 3 times we breached that subject :-) And then if I have nothing else to do, I read the answers (often from newer posters too) and I enjoy seeing them going through the same arguments as I went a few months or years ago, and discover all those things I've known for so long now. The older crowd here are *all* looking for fresh stuff : new things to discuss or new ways to discuss them. That's how TBAY emerged for example. So you can believe me when I tell you that we'll all be infinitely grateful to you if you can give us fresh meat to chew on ! However, you must be ready for the "TBAY effect" : if you propose a format of discussion radically different from the classic debate we have usually, chances are quite a few of us won't be able to follow. There's also what I would call the "Alchemy effect" : that's when you base your posts on specific knowledge that not many people have or even are interested in. There again, not many will be able to follow you. But that must NOT stop you from proposing anything you might be thinking of. Whatever enriches one thread always ends up enriching the whole forum. So if anyone has any idea, please don't feel shy ! Del From annettehamel at hotmail.com Wed Jul 14 14:14:01 2004 From: annettehamel at hotmail.com (Annette Hamel) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:14:01 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who is berk and Slytherin reputation (Diaries) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106199 >Amey: > > Remember what Ron says anout the diary? "Tom got a diary > > for christmas and couldn't bother writing it." This shows > > a typical boy's POV towards a diary. I am sure TR wouldn't > > have bothered writing a diary had it not been the way to > > instruct his succcessor. > > Del wonders : > Does that mean that Tom *intended* it for a girl to find and > use the Diary ? Or is it just that customs have changed since > Tom's time, when boys maybe wrote more often in diaries ? Perhaps our British list members can shed more light on this, but I have a British friend who refers to her day-planner as a "diary", and when (for instance) we are told that there will be a meeting at 3:00 on Monday, she will say "I must put that down in my diary", or, "I must check my diary for appointments." I think the term "diary" may also be used in this fashion, not just to mean "journal." Note that when Harry finds the diary, he thinks it's odd that it doesn't have any *appointments* written in it, like "dentist appointment Wednesday". Also, it appears that the pages of Tom Riddle's diary are dated, whereas a journal-type diary often isn't. I'm assuming Tom's diary was of the day-planner variety. Annette =^..^= _________________________________________________________________ Get fast, reliable Internet access with MSN 9 Dial-up now 2 months FREE! http://join.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/ From annettehamel at hotmail.com Wed Jul 14 14:36:22 2004 From: annettehamel at hotmail.com (Annette Hamel) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:36:22 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP Krum's Role (was SHIP Luna.) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106200 Dan said: <> Regarding "SHIPping" in general - I think it comes down to the question, "is Rowling writing the HP books in the romantic tradition?" Now, in this context, "romantic" doesn't mean lovey-dovey, Harlequin-novel stuff ... it's referring to the traditional literary formula for a heroic quest, the way the hero behaves, etc. "Lord of the Rings" is a romance, in this context. In the romantic tradition, the hero usually gets the girl in the end (Aragorn gets Arwen, Sam returns to the Shire to marry Rosie). If the HP books are/were written in this context, then Harry would come through trials and fire to win Hermione's heart before it's all over. The "faithful sidekick" may get *a* girl, but doesn't usually get the *main* girl, if you take my meaning. I will be very disappointed if the hero (Harry) and heroine (Hermione) aren't together in the end. I, for one, will feel cheated if she ends up with Ron. Annette =^..^= _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From annettehamel at hotmail.com Wed Jul 14 14:51:29 2004 From: annettehamel at hotmail.com (Annette Hamel) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:51:29 +0000 Subject: Magic "late in life" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106201 I have been reading many posts speculating that Petunia is the one who proves magical "late in life". I just started re-reading the series, and on page 3 (or so) of SS, it states that Vernon and Petunia are "both muggles". I realize that many wizards are "muggle-born", but I've never seen an instance in the books where someone referred to outright as a "muggle" was magical in any way. My money's on Filch ;) Annette =^..^= _________________________________________________________________ MSN 9 Dial-up Internet Access helps fight spam and pop-ups now 2 months FREE! http://join.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/ From ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 15:06:01 2004 From: ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com (ohneill_2001) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 15:06:01 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: <001b01c469af$74dd4cf0$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106202 > GEO wrote : > > Point of the matter is compared to Harry, he has nothing to complain > > about. > > Del replies : > Point of the matter is, in your logic, compared to Harry, *nobody* has > nothing to complain about. I don't think like that. > Now Cory: Regarding Ron and the debate about whether he anything to complain about, of course he does. I think it is important to look at the issue in the context in which the current debate is occurring, because I honestly believe both of you are right. First, in general -- no one's problems are trivial; Ron has every right to complain about his lot in life. He has, in some ways, had a very difficult life. He has different problems than Harry, but they are no less important to him. Having said that, let's not forget how this discussion began, oh-so- many posts ago. This debate began over a shipping discussion, when someone made the point that Ron "deserves" to end up with Hermione, because he's had such a hard life and he deserves to at least "get the girl." (I apologize if I am slightly misquoting, and for not knowing whose thought that was; I think we all know what I am referring to though.) The point is, in the context of *that discussion*, it does make sense to say "now wait a minute, Harry has had a tough life too; why are we feeling so sorry for Ron?" To make that argument is not to say that Ron's problems are trivial or that he does not deserve our sympathy; rather, it is only to say that if we think he "deserves" anything based on sympathy, maybe we should consider whether anyone else "deserves" it even more. Best, --Cory (who doesn't actually think anyone "deserves" Hermione based on how tough their life has been, for the record...) From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Wed Jul 14 15:27:59 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 15:27:59 -0000 Subject: Dobby redux (long) In-Reply-To: <3A0BB241-D587-11D8-AB9D-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106203 Kneasy: > What's with Dobby? >If he wanted to nip the plot in the bud, he'd warn > the Weasleys, not Harry. Aggie: If Ginny was the original target and not Harry himself. (Hi Dad!!! Tee Hee I'm suffering tremendously now that you've disowned me!) Kneasy: > Two possibilities occur to me - well, three, but we should be able >to discount one of them out of hand. Aggie: This is US you're talking to. . . ;o) Kneasy: >We'll deal with that one first. >I wondered if there was a parallel in the behaviour of Dobby and > Kreacher. Dobby might have done the same, expressing his > philosophical disapproval of Malfoy's moral stance by telling Harry >as much as Malfoy's instructions allowed him to. But this would mean >that Harry and the Malfoys were somehow related, and we've been told >that Harry has no living relatives except the Dursleys. Shame. >SNIP> Aggie: It could depend on the definition of 'related'. If you could include 'Godparent' into the family circle, then they could be related!! My Collins English dictionary says: 'relation-. . . connection between things. . .' Sirius, Hary and the Malfoys are all 'connected'. It depends on how you look at things!! DD would hardly let Harry be brought up by the Malfoys who would have despised him more than the Dursleys for the fall of LV. Hmmm. . . ;-S Kneasy: > Secondly - there's this mysterious Office for House Elf Relocation >in the Ministry. Herself rarely does something without good reason >and this seems a largely irrelevant snippet to throw into FBaWTFT - Aggie: Mmmmm interesting. Kneasy: > But: we know that the Potters are pureblood, an old wizarding family, Aggie: Do we? Please enlighten me. We know that James was from a wizarding family, otherwise Harry would have been muggle born but do we know he's from an 'old wealthy famiy'? Kneasy: > with loadsadosh (James inherited wealth) - just the sort of people >to have a House Elf pottering around the family pile, according to >Ron. Aggie: George said in CoS 'House elves come with big old manors and castles and places like like. . .' Where is the Potter mansion? GH was a (?) cottage in the middle of a muggle village (?) can't find description but IIRC it sounded just like an average house. James's parents might have had a mansion but why wouldn't James have inherited it then? And if he did and just didn't use it then why has no-one informed Harry of it's existence? Dobby says in CoS 'Dobby is a house-elf, bound to serve one house and one family for ever.' This intimates that Dobby has only served one family. (Although, if this IS the case why is there an office for House Elf relocation? D'oh just answered own question, for when they get freed!) Kneasy: >is this meant to be taken at > face value (Harry was instrumental in Dobby being freed) or is JKR > pulling a fast one - (Harry somehow had the necessary authority to > instigate Dobby's release since what Malfoy did was clearly > unintentional) and sneakily hiding a clue in plain sight? This >subject has been picked over, dissected, discussed, disagreed about, > interpreted and re-interpreted at almost tedious length. Life's too > short to go through that again - unless something new turns up in >the way of evidence. Aggie: I haven't picked at it yet and therefore do not know if what I have to say is new or not. Apologies if it's not (more than likely!). Malfoy's release of Dobby WAS unintentional but this does not seem to matter to house elves. In OotP when Hermione was knitting furiously all the hats and scarves to free the elves, they refused to clean Griffindor common room in case they accidently picked up the article of clothing and *unintentionally* freed themselves. If it works one way round surely it'll work the other. Kneasy: > It's the third possibility that I find fascinating, mostly because >it opens up vistas of double-dealing, betrayal and duplicity. >Lovely! Unfortunately, for all it's attractions it's the option >with the least evidential or even inferential support. Still, > >that's never stopped a conspiracy theorist before, so... > > Dobby is under orders from Lucius. > After all, it's not just a single visit to Privet Drive we're >talking about, he drops in on Harry at Hogwarts a few times too. How >often can House Elves flout their masters wishes, for Heavens sake? >Once - possible; more seems a bit iffy to me. Aggie: It's a possibility. Kneasy: > And there's the strange way he identifies the danger - "Not he who >must not be named" - very odd, very.....rehearsed. Aggie: Yes it is. . .because he's trying to give Harry a clue. Kneasy: >Add in the mildness of DD's reaction at the finale - after he's >been suspended, Hagrid's been to Azkaban, students have been >petrified and Malfoy just gets a warning regarding his future >behaviour. Hardly seems just or equitable. You begin to wonder if >Malfoy's been covering all the options, that hints have been passed >and understood; that by sending Dobby with a warning he's also sent >a message - "I can be useful." Aggie: OH Lordy! It's bad enough having Snape as a double agent but Lucius too!!! Tee Hee Kneasy: >He's not the type to totally commit himself to a cause that might >lose; doesn't Voldy think so too? "Lucius, my slippery friend..." >Though he was rather silly getting involved in the Ministry fiasco. >Still, he does seem the type to play both ends against the middle, >and to do that he has to appear co-operative when Voldy says "Jump!" Aggie: That would imply that Lucius is not convinced of LV's power. That he thinks that there is a chance of LV being defeated. Whilst I agree that he is a 'slippery' character, he has remained faithful to the 'dark arts' if not to LV himself. Why would Lucius send Dobby to Harry? I've been trying to bring myself around to this way of thinking. Having an open mind about all possibilities is important to me and I do like a good lateral puzzle. Imagine if Dobby hadn't visited Harry, would anything have been done differently? Yes, Harry would have had his post, but unlikely to have been able to reply to it. Yes, Harry and Ron would have been able to have caught the Express, but they got to school anyway. I could go on about all the events that Dobby caused, the bludger etc but ultimately, these did not alter Harry's behaviour. If Dobby hadn't interfered Harry would still have gone to any lengths to discover all that he could about the Chamber. So what would have been the point of Lucius sending him? My only reasoning was that he was sent to do exactly what he was trying to do but for different reasons. 1) Stop Harry going to back to Hogwarts - To stop Harry from discovering the Chamber and putting a stop to the basilisk. To prevent him from interfering, not to save his life. But when Ginny threw the diary into the toilet, it only resurfaced (so to speak) because Harry picked it up. Without Harry there, it would have stopped the killings,sorry petrifyings(?). 2) The bludger - This was actually to harm, maybe even kill, Harry not just to get him sent home. I'm dubious that this is the case otherwise I doubt Dobby would have been so happy to be freed, but I guess he might have had no option but to follow Lucius's orders and he really didn't want to. The problem I have with Dobby (going back to canon now!)is why he thought Harry was in so much danger! Was it just because of Tom? It couldn't have been because of the Chamber, he wasn't a muggle-born. Sorry to have gone on but this was so much fun I couldn't resist! From cincimaelder at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 15:11:10 2004 From: cincimaelder at yahoo.com (cincimaelder) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 15:11:10 -0000 Subject: Ron's "poor me" syndrome. In-Reply-To: <001101c469aa$d8b03580$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106204 > Alla: > > > Is it a mortal sin for Ron to complain about his poorness? Surely > > not, BUT it does get very annoying. I am expecting Ron to put > things > > in perspective by now. > > > Katie: > > Ron's minor complaints may annoying to you, but I find them > realistic and at times almost endearing. I read over your list of I agree with what others are saying here. Harry is Ron's best friend and they tell each other their problems. Ron's complaints are valid. Also, maybe we all forget what it's like to be a teen, always trying to find your place in the scheme of things (and none of us had to fight the Dark Lord while we were navigating our way through these uncertain times). If the characters were so perfect that they never complained or were never know-it-alls, they would be boring and unrealistic and the books wouldn't have the charm that they do! Mae From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 14 15:49:36 2004 From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 16:49:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040714154936.27272.qmail@web25306.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106205 delwynmarch wrote: Paul wrote : > lately we have as an arguement for our ship that loosing the girl from > the other is not fair or a mistreatment!!! Del replies : It wasn't an argument, it was my personal feeling. I would just happen to hurt badly for a guy if the girl he's been fancying for years decided to go out with that guy's best friend. In HP or in RL. It hurts me, that's all. Del Now Udderpd This in part is somthing I posted yesterday but it fits here as well. Ron likes Hermione, why, because she is the only girl he ever gets to talk to (I don't count his sister). If he tried to mix and have a social conversation with some other girls he may learn somthing about himself and just as importantly about girls. He always moans that he doesn't understand girls but he makes absolutly no attempt to try too and he isn't going to get anywhere with any girl unless he tries. I believe that Hermione is an exception to this rule, I guess her IQ to be written at around 145 and she knows Ron very well. She knows exactly what a plonker he is and if she fancied him she would tell him in no uncertain terms. She knows that nothing else would get through his thick skull. Luna may well be another exception for a different reason she seems to be fundamentally in touch with many things and I think that she has been added to the story for Ron (she knows what he has been up to from when we first meet her on the train). She is known to Ginny and they don't live far apart, is this blind Ron again? Luna is liable to drag Ron into a broom cupboard and snog him sensless and it just might wake him up. TTFN Udder PenDragon ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hannah at starbrightdesigns.net Wed Jul 14 15:07:55 2004 From: hannah at starbrightdesigns.net (Hannah Pasisz) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 11:07:55 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books References: Message-ID: <005d01c469b4$5edb8110$1d00000a@jewish5yr63qq2> No: HPFGUIDX 106206 > Del replies : > Yes, he acts as a typical 15-year-old. That's my problem. Harry pretty > much never acted as a typical boy before, in critical situations. He > was always more mature, more calm, more *adult*. That's the way he was > during the first 4 books, and then suddenly kaboom ! He's just a > 15-year-old. That's what I meant by "out of character". That is how teenage boys are. My husband's young brother was kind and sweet and wise beyond his years till he discovered girls at age 16. The kind sweet mature young boy then turned into a walking talking 24/7 MTV ad. I actually found Harry coming into his teenage years at an appropriate time quite refreshing. -Hannah P. (who rarely posts but loves wasting all day at work reading the 100's of other posts) From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Jul 14 16:03:28 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 16:03:28 -0000 Subject: Lily's Eyes & Blood In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106207 Susan wrote > > Don't you think that something must happen in Book 6 or 7 about > Harry > > having his mother's eyes? JKR hits us over the head with this > > observation several times in the first few books -- every time > > someone who knew Lily meets Harry -- but it remains undeveloped. > JKR Jen: I can't seem to pass up a thread on Lily's eyes! I'm so intrigued by the mystery of her eyes and why Harry's eyes are his most vulnerable area. (Relevant quotes from JKR are at the end of my post.) JKR said we will find out something 'very significant' about Lily in Book 5 and something 'incredibly important' in Book 7. I tend to think Book 7 will finally reveal the mystery of her eyes. As for the "very significant" thing in Book 5, my speculation is that Lily's blood has significance beyond her sacrifice and Dumbledore's subsequent charm. We already know her sacrifice gave Harry protection, but Dumbledore mentions the importance of her blood several times: "I put my trust, therefore, in your mother's blood." "He shed her blood, but it lives on in you and her sister." "Her blood became your refuge." (OOTP, US, chap.37, p. 836) Regarding the conenction between Blood & Eyes, JKR has already drawn an interesting parallel in her story: Dragons are powerfully magical, yet the key to their vulnerability is their eyes. We also know that there are twelve uses for dragon blood, and that dragon blood has 'highly magical properties' according to FBAWTFT. This leads me to believe there must be something special about Lily's blood. After thinking about the new title, Half Blood Prince, another interesting parallel occurs to me: What if Lily descended from Godric Gryffindor, just as Riddle's mother descended from Slytherin? Even if Gryffindor isn't the half-blod prince of the title, a branch of his family could, over 1000 years, become Muggle. Until Lily was born. And that bloodline resides in Harry & in Dudley, and if their bloodline dies, as Slytherin's bloodline died with Tom Riddle....well somehow that would be significant for the entire WW. How's that for definitive? ;) Jen R., thinking this little theory might also explain why Aunt Petunia kept Harry all these years, in exchange for Dudley's safety. ********************************************************************* Q: Do you know what Harry's parents look like? JKR: "Yes. I've even drawn a picture of how they look. Harry has his father and mother's good looks. But he has his mother's eyes and that's very important in a future book." Boston Globe, 1999. "{JKR's} thrilled with Stephen Fry's taped version of the books, outraged that an Italian dust jacket shows Harry minus his glasses. "Don't they understand that they are the clue to his vulnerability?" Reader's Digest, 2000 Q: Hi, I really like the books and we already learned a lot about Harry's father and I was wondering `Are we going to learn a lot about his mother?' JKR: Yeah, you will...Now the important thing about Harry's mother, the really, really significant thing, you're going to find out in 2 parts. You'll find out a lot more about her in Book 5, or you'll find out something very significant about her in Book 5, then you'll find out something incredibly important about her in Book 7. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 16:09:09 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 16:09:09 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106208 Cory wrote : > Having said that, let's not forget how this discussion began, oh-so- > many posts ago. This debate began over a shipping discussion, when > someone made the point that Ron "deserves" to end up with Hermione, > because he's had such a hard life and he deserves to at least "get > the girl." Del replies : It was me. And I surely never said that Ron deserved Hermione, first because nobody ever deserves anybody, and because even if that was true, I don't think neither Ron nor Harry would deserve Hermione. What I said was that Ron was always second-best to Harry, and that I'd be horribly upset if the girl he's fancied for years ended up with his best friend. And that was just my *opinion*, not an argument in favour of R/H, which I don't really support anyway. Del From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Wed Jul 14 16:30:44 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 16:30:44 -0000 Subject: Snape as an Occlumens In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106209 > Penny Brooks wrote: > I have a question, and I've done some searching of files to see if > it's been discussed previously--I haven't found anything, so > hopefully it hasn't. Here goes: > > In OooP, we learn that Snape is an occlumens, and presumably a > legilimens, when he has to teach Harry occlumency. What I'm > wondering is: why hasn't Snape used this skill before? There are > many situations in the previous books where Snape has accused Harry > of doing things he did/didn't do, and if he were penetrate minds, as > he does in the occlumency lessons, why didn't he do so at those times > to learn the truth? An example...in CoS, Hermione steals ingredients > from the potions cupboard, but Snape accuses Harry...all he'd have to > do is a little mind-reading, and he'd know it wasn't him. It seems > that Snape's animosity for Harry would give him a propensity to do a > little mind-reading on Harry. boyd: Sure, Penny, and he could also have used Veritaserum. Or as, Umbridge was considering, Crucio. So why doesn't he? Of course, as a plot device it would take too much of the intrigue away, but it also gets back to morality in the WW. Many posts have been written on this before, but here's my version. Many in the WW believe the end justifies the means. Include in this list Salazar, LV, all true DEs, Umbridge, and, interestingly, Dobby in CoS. Sirius swerved close to this path several times in PoA, as well. The MoM authorized aurors to kill DEs back in the first rise of LV. And there has been much debate here over whether Dumbledore is using Harry as a weapon without regard for Harry's well-being (see the many awe-inspiring MAGIC DISHWASHER posts). Yet we have seen many other instances of individuals in the WW not usurping other wizards' freedoms even to do a bit of likely good. This must be why DD doesn't just go around AK'ing the DE's Harry saw during the Blood, Flesh and Bone incantation. After all, what if the DEs change their minds and turn on LV (as it appears Snape did) or are there unwillingly (as Pettigrew claims to be in PoA)? Frankly, the good guys seem to want only to defend themselves and their friends in a reactive way most of the time. Do we really think that in HBP there will be OoP'ers trying to AK the DEs who broke into the MoM and tried to kill DD and Harry? No, DD and the other good guys tend to give the baddies enough rope to demonstrate their ESE-ness right here right now, then take them down. Even then, they mostly seem to prefer prison to death for the baddies. So why doesn't Snape use Legilimens or Veritaserum on Harry? Because the good guys don't do that without absolute proof of someone's badness (e.g. Crouch!Moody at the end of GoF). --boyd Who believes Snape is one of the good guys, but also a @$#&%! And that James in the Pensieve demonstrated more than bad manners in his dealings with Snape. ESE!James, anyone? From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 16:37:14 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 16:37:14 -0000 Subject: Wishes come true In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106210 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "theadimail" wrote: > Hi, > All this talk about Ron made me think. In the first book Ron sees > himself in the mirror of Erised and he sees that he is the headboy, > quidditch captain and winnder of quidditch cup. One of these already > has happened. Ron did win the quidditch cup. So is he headed down > the Headboy and Captain way? > > And Harry of course sees his parents in the mirror. Will he get to > meet them in some form or is that wish going to remain just that > forever-- a wish? > Bye > Adi Asian_lovr2: While I would like for Ron to be Head Boy, I don't see how that can happen. Head Boy is not King (or captain) of the Prefects. That seems to be an independant honor unrelated to Prefect. Also, Head Boys is not a House appointment, it's a school wide honor; only one Head Boy and Head Girl in whole school, at least, that's my impression. So, while I dearly want Ron to be Head Boy, I just don't see how it could happen. To some extent, Ron seeing himself as Head Boy is Ron's way of seeing that he has distinguished himself, but he is only seeing his distinction for the limited framework of a small boy. So, his real goal is achievement and distinction not Head Boy, and before the series is over, I think Ron will have achieved his goal, but in ways he never imagined. By the way, I have speculated in the past that Ron will become Quidditch Captain. The more obvius choice would be Harry, and I think Harry will be for while, but in the end I think he will turn to role over to Ron. There is also the possibility that Harry will be under too much pressure from other things to have time or inclination to play Quidditch. I hate to see that happen, but I was thinking the other night about Harry running the DA Club. If the club is school wide, that means he has a lot more students to teach. True he does have the core DA member to act as his assistance, but having assistance means preparing them ahead of time for the general open DA Club classes. That implies one meeting for the Senior DA members to prepare for the open meeting of the general DA Club members. Harry will have fewer classes, but those classes will be more demanding. To be an Auror he must have 5 NEWTs with a minimum of 'Exceeds Expectations' in each class; likely classes, Transfigurations, Charms, DADA, Potions, and one other. He will drop Divination, Astronomy, History of Magic, and Herbology or Care of Magical Creatures. Even with that reduced schedule, I see tremendous demands on his time and attention. Add DA Club, and he will be a busy boy. Not saying with certainty that Harry will not play Quidditch, just saying that eventually I think Ron could be Quidditch Captain. As far as Harry seeing his parents, the only discusions we've had so far that touch on that are the 'Underworld' discussion. The theory is that Harry, like many mythological heroes, will make a journey to the 'underworld', in other words, a journey 'beyond the Veil'. The speculation is that Harry will go into The Veiled Archway in the Dept of Mysteries into the land of the Dead, although, the reasons why that might happen are varied. While in the 'land of the dead' he will see Sirius and his parent, and will discover information that will help him defeat Voldemort, as well as a variety of other scenerios. Harry's parents are dead, so under normal circumstances, even in the wizard world, there is no way for Harry to meet them. So, other than the 'journey to the land of the dead', I don't see how it could happen. Remember that fullfilling what was seen in the Mirror doesn't necessarily mean literally fullfilling those visions. Harry may meet his parents in some symbolic way, and Ron may achieve recognition but no in the ways he originally imagined. Just a few thoughts. Steve/asian_lovr2 From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 16:44:57 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 16:44:57 -0000 Subject: Snape as an Occlumens In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106211 Penny Brooks wrote: > In OooP, we learn that Snape is an occlumens, and presumably a > legilimens, when he has to teach Harry occlumency. What I'm > wondering is: why hasn't Snape used this skill before? (snip) > It seems that Snape's animosity for Harry would give him a propensity > to do a little mind-reading on Harry. Del replies : Interesting question. One answer could simply be that he's not as good a Legilimens as DD is. We suspect that DD can read somebody's mind without a wand or an incantation, but I'm not sure Snape could. During his lessons with Harry, he always uses a wand and says the word. Maybe he still needs them. And it wouldn't be very discreet to put such a spell on Harry. What if Harry remembers the word and reports it to DD sometime later ? How would Snape justify using such a mind-invading method on a student ? Just an idea. Del From greatelderone at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 16:49:48 2004 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 16:49:48 -0000 Subject: Harry's future... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106212 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cincimaelder" wrote: > I'm not sure if anyone has ever suggested this because I'm fairly new > to this board, but I believe Harry will be the Defense Against the > Dark Arts teacher at the end of the series. He's great at this > subject and was a wonderful teacher for DA. GEO: Yes, but Rowling has said that he won't become a teacher after the books. As much as I personally like the idea, I think it's more likely that he'll be an auror. > - When Harry was teaching DA the Patronus charm in OoP, they seemed to > do better than Harry did on his first shot at it. Both Cho and > Hermione where able to summon an animal, and all Harry was able to > manage at first was some wisps vapor. GEO: Possibly because Harry was a better teacher and that the students that he recruited were all fairly advanced level students (Cho was a Ravenclaw sixth year and Hermione is pretty brilliant) or else Lupin was a really bad teacher. Afterall that fellow couldn't even restrain Sirius and James during his maurauder days. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 16:57:28 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 16:57:28 -0000 Subject: SHIP Krum's Role (was SHIP Luna.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106213 Annette Hamel wrote: > Regarding "SHIPping" in general - I think it comes down to the > question, "is Rowling writing the HP books in the romantic > tradition?" Del replies : I don't think that in the romantic tradition, the girl actually happens to be one of the *guys*. Hermione doesn't fulfill the role of the traditional heroine at all. In your example, Arwen and Rosie did very little in the battle : some support of a hero once in a while, and that's about it. They are pretty much just waiting for their hero to finish his quest and come home. Hermione is *nothing* like them. If she's like anyone in The Lord of the Rings, it's Eowyn, who did have a crush on the main hero but ended up marrying one of the sidekicks. Del From paulag5777 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 17:07:43 2004 From: paulag5777 at yahoo.com (Paula Gaon) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:07:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dobby redux Message-ID: <20040714170743.79333.qmail@web40004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106214 14July04 Kneasy wrote: "Personally I can't stand the little creep (Dobby). It may be movie contamination but the expression on his face when levitating the cake in CoS just confirmed my prejudices. A sly, vicious leer...." Paula: I see what you mean. I'm way behind on the movies, have only see CoS so far, and felt very disappointed at the portrayal of Dobby. I had imagined him completely different--more cuddly and sympatico" Kneasy: "Dobby is under orders from Lucius. After all, it's not just a single visit to Privet Drive we're talking about, he drops in on Harry at Hogwarts a few times too. How often can House Elves flout their masters wishes, for Heavens sake? Once - possible; more seems a bit iffy to me." Paula: I really bristled when I read this. Didn't Dobby give Harry the Gillyweed at the last minute to dive into the lake in GoF? But then it occurred to me, wait a minute, of course Lucius would want Harry to survive this task to meet old Voldy in the cemetery. Kneasy, maybe you're on to something... Paula Gaon See Something REALLY Special at--new updates: https://www.cafeshops.com/bft/216705 See the Magical Creatures at: http://www.cafeshops.com/bft/311142 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Jul 14 17:06:49 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 17:06:49 -0000 Subject: Snape as an Occlumens In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106215 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Penny Brooks" wrote: > In OooP, we learn that Snape is an occlumens, and presumably a legilimens, when he has to teach Harry occlumency. What I'm wondering is: why hasn't Snape used this skill before? < I think he uses it all the time, though it was more useful when Harry didn't know he could do it. Think of all the times Snape looks searchingly into Harry's eyes. But you have to remember, Snape is a liar. He's perfectly capable of accusing Harry of something, looking into his mind, discovering that Harry is innocent, and continuing to carry on as if he still believed Harry were guilty, the better to find out what else Harry might know. He's also quite capable of discovering that Harry is guilty and yet pretending to believe Harry's lies. After all, as we learned back in Book One, Snape is *not* prying into Harry's affairs to try and get him in trouble. He's trying to keep Harry safe. Pippin From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Wed Jul 14 17:19:02 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 17:19:02 -0000 Subject: HBP is Riddle (plus some reasons why) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106216 >> first boyd wrote: >> We've also seen the >> diary-memory of Tom Riddle nearly become real many years later, and >> we've seen Lord Voldemort's unending quest for eternal life. Put it >> all together the essence of Salazar is a memory much like Tom >> Riddle's >> diary, but this memory is of a powerful adult wizard at the height of >> his powers. So Slytherin created a memory in some vessel (perhaps a >> diary, perhaps not), which waited in the Chamber for an Heir to come, >> and now has merged with that Heir. Salazar now shares the body of Tom >> Riddle, one snake (the symbol of Slytherin) "in essence divided" >> (inhabited by two beings). > Then Sandra wrote: > so I think could board this vessel - with my life vest on, and the > shore, with book 6 and 7, in sight though ; ) > > Sandra boyd: Welcome aboard, Sandra! Be prepared, though, because this is definitely a vessel that could be blown out of the water by new canon whenever JKR releases Book 6. Or we could be raised to the status of a luxury cruise ship when all of Potterdom climbs aboard our newly-canonized vessel. Either way, looks to be a fun ride! One thing bothers me, though, Sandra. Dumbledore's old--really old. Some people have said he's like a human phoenix, it's been mentioned that he worked with Flamel and may have used the PS/SS, and perhaps it's true that he is in fact only part-human (part elf?). Heck, maybe he's time-travelling after all. Or maybe he's the memory of Gryffindor? :O --boyd ok, ok, I'll go back on my meds again From flamingstarchows at att.net Wed Jul 14 17:16:22 2004 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (texaschow) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 17:16:22 -0000 Subject: Harry's future... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106217 --- "cincimaelder" wrote: - When Harry was teaching DA the Patronus charm in OoP, they seemed to > do better than Harry did on his first shot at it. Both Cho and > Hermione where able to summon an animal, and all Harry was able to > manage at first was some wisps vapor. When Harry was learning the Patronus Charm, Lupin used a Boggart, which turned into a Dementor in Harry's case. It had basically the same affect as the real ones did. In the lessons Harry was teaching to the DA, they were in a brightly lit classroom - no dementors to suck the happiness out of them while they practiced their patronuses. Producing a patronus with a dementor in the room is far more difficult than if there is not one present. ~Cathy~ (who hasn't been here in a while, but thought she would check in since the title of book six has been announced) From enigma_only at hotmail.com Wed Jul 14 17:28:03 2004 From: enigma_only at hotmail.com (fiondavhar) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 17:28:03 -0000 Subject: Dobby redux (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106218 > Kneasy: > > What's with Dobby? > >If he wanted to nip the plot in the bud, he'd warn > > the Weasleys, not Harry. > > Two possibilities occur to me - well, three, but we should be able > >to discount one of them out of hand. > >We'll deal with that one first. > >I wondered if there was a parallel in the behaviour of Dobby and > > Kreacher. Dobby might have done the same, expressing his > > philosophical disapproval of Malfoy's moral stance by telling Harry > >as much as Malfoy's instructions allowed him to. But this would mean > >that Harry and the Malfoys were somehow related, and we've been told > >that Harry has no living relatives except the Dursleys. Shame. Bonny now: I think that to say somone has no living relatives means that they have no close living relatives, no-one that could really be considered family. For instance, I am friends with a guy whose great great grandfather was my grt grt grt grandfathers brother. We aren't really considered close family, but we have a similar bloodline, and a similar inheritance. I would never have been sent to live with that family had my own died as a child, but it is concievable that, had there been somthing like a house-elf in our faimly, we would both have some authourity over it :) I know that JKR has basically ruled out any sort of family connection, but it is still fun to speculate. > >SNIP> > Kneasy: > > Secondly - there's this mysterious Office for House Elf Relocation > >in the Ministry. Herself rarely does something without good reason > >and this seems a largely irrelevant snippet to throw into FBaWTFT - > > > Aggie: > Mmmmm interesting. Bonny: I also find this very interesting, and combined with Dobby's apparant loyalty to Harry (and this goes further than CoS and Harry's releasing him - Dobby takes orders from and goes out of his way to help Harry numerous times throught the books)I think this could be an interesting factor. The only questionable thing that stands out in my mind is, why doesn't Dobby just tell Harry if it is so? Is it because he wants a salary, or because there's no truth in my argument? hmmm... SNIP > Aggie: > George said in CoS 'House elves come with big old manors and castles > and places like like. . .' Where is the Potter mansion? GH was a (?) > cottage in the middle of a muggle village (?) can't find description > but IIRC it sounded just like an average house. James's parents > might have had a mansion but why wouldn't James have inherited it > then? And if he did and just didn't use it then why has no-one > informed Harry of it's existence? > Bonny: Good question! There is definatley somr sort of mystery surrounding the Potters (senior and junior) an their history I am sure, or else we would have heard more about it. James parents seem to have died a fairly early death, and were followed shortly by James, who was to be shortly followed by Harry. We don't know how the sr. Potters died, but it sounds a bit like elimination of the family line to me. Maybe someone considered them "blood-traitors"? Does Harry have a "Grimmauld Place" lurking somewhere, full of family secrets? > Dobby says in CoS 'Dobby is a house-elf, bound to serve one house and > one family for ever.' This intimates that Dobby has only served one > family. (Although, if this IS the case why is there an office for > House Elf relocation? D'oh just answered own question, for when they > get freed!) > Bonny: Or when the family line dies out, as it would have when Bartemius Sr. Crouch died, seeing as his only son was already supposed dead. SNIP > > Aggie: > Malfoy's release of Dobby WAS unintentional but this does not seem to > matter to house elves. In OotP when Hermione was knitting furiously > all the hats and scarves to free the elves, they refused to clean > Griffindor common room in case they accidently picked up the article > of clothing and *unintentionally* freed themselves. If it works one > way round surely it'll work the other. Bonny: Atually, they refuse to clean Gryffindor house because they find the hats insulting, not because they are afraid of being freed. "She still does not care for clothes, Harry Potter. Nor do the other house-elves. None of them will clean Gryffindor Tower any more, not with the hats and socks hidden everywhere, they finds them insulting, sir." OotP, Canadaian Hardback, page 342 Besides, Mrs. Weasley wanted a house-elf to do the laundry - it is specifically noted in CoS - and if a house elf could be freed simply by being handed a garment, they certainly would not be able to do laundry. I believe there has to be intent. > > > > Kneasy: > > It's the third possibility that I find fascinating, mostly because > >it opens up vistas of double-dealing, betrayal and duplicity. > >Lovely! Unfortunately, for all it's attractions it's the option > >with the least evidential or even inferential support. Still, > > >that's never stopped a conspiracy theorist before, so... > > > > Dobby is under orders from Lucius. > > After all, it's not just a single visit to Privet Drive we're > >talking about, he drops in on Harry at Hogwarts a few times too. How > >often can House Elves flout their masters wishes, for Heavens sake? > >Once - possible; more seems a bit iffy to me. Bonny: I believe house elves can do things so long as they are not expressly forbidden to do them. Ie Kreacher was forbiddin from divulging the order's plans, but he was not forbiddin from talking about the relationship betweem Harry and Sirius, or from lying to Dumbledore or Harry. He could do so freely. > > Aggie: > It's a possibility. > > Kneasy: > > And there's the strange way he identifies the danger - "Not he who > >must not be named" - very odd, very.....rehearsed. > > Aggie: > Yes it is. . .because he's trying to give Harry a clue. > Bonny: And if this clue had been from Lucius, it would likley have read "Not the Dark Lord"... BIG SNIP > Imagine if Dobby hadn't visited Harry, would anything have been done > differently? Yes, Harry would have had his post, but unlikely to have > been able to reply to it. Yes, Harry and Ron would have been able to > have caught the Express, but they got to school anyway. Bonny: But the car wouldn't have been there to save Harry and Ron from the Acromantulae, and so they would never have lived to save Ginny or stop Riddle. SNIP > > The problem I have with Dobby (going back to canon now!)is why he > thought Harry was in so much danger! Was it just because of Tom? It > couldn't have been because of the Chamber, he wasn't a muggle-born. > > Sorry to have gone on but this was so much fun I couldn't resist! Bonny: Dobby knew that Harry Potter was the person most likley to be targeted by TR/LV, because he is legend for bringing him down! That constitutes danger to me! From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 14 17:31:11 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 17:31:11 -0000 Subject: The Mirror and the Heart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106219 "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: [snip] > Three first-year students?-granted, each quite talented in his/her > own way, but still FIRST-YEARS--two of which who're coming into the > WW for the first time, are able to work their way through > *seven* "security devices"? I've snipped very heavily, but I think there's enough left to put my point into context. I wondered if the security was more aimed at stopping a single infiltrator. The Trio were working together, combining their skills. Moe than that, two of them were willing to sacrifice their chances of getting through so that the third made it. Maybe that's why they were more effective than might have been expected. HTH HAND -- Phil From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Wed Jul 14 16:28:17 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 16:28:17 -0000 Subject: Lily's Eyes & Blood In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106220 > Jen: > As for the "very significant" thing in Book 5, my speculation is > that Lily's blood has significance beyond her sacrifice and > Dumbledore's subsequent charm. We already know her sacrifice gave > Harry protection, but Dumbledore mentions the importance of her > blood several times: Aggie: I would add to that in saying that another 'very significant' thing we found out about Lily in book 5 was from the pensieve scene. That she was willing to stand up for something she believed in. That she had high morals and wasn't afraid to voice them. She had courage and conviction. As for her blood, I think you could have something but I do wonder if we've missed something as you quoted, "He shed her blood, but it lives on in you and her sister." Now I realise this probably just means that LV killed her, but what if you take it literally. 'He shed her blood' but we know -or do we?- that he didn't shed a drop. If he AK'd her then no blood was spilt. From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Wed Jul 14 16:23:46 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:23:46 -0400 Subject: Prefects and points Message-ID: <001201c469be$f1b1ca80$68c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 106221 Cathy Drolet wrote: > > > Even Fred and George know the only choice of Prefects is to hand > out > > punishments. They never say "Dock us house points? Big deal." because > > they know prefects can't dock house points. Hermione was involved in > > both situations quoted above. Nieky "In my OOTP p.597 Ernie says to Malfoy "you can't take points from fellow prefects". So prefects can take points from other students, not from other prefects. Members of the Inquisitorial Squad can dock points from prefects." Cathy Coming out of lurkdom for one last post. In my OotP it says: "Afraid I'm going to have to dock a few points from Gryffindor and Hufflepuff," he [Malfoy] drawled. "It's only teachers who can dock points from houses, Malfoy," said Ernie {Macmillan} at once. "Yeah, we're prefects, too, remember?" snarled Ron. "I know prefects can't dock points, Weasel King," sneered Malfoy. Crabbe and Goyle sniggered. "But member of the Inquisitorial Squad --" "The what?" said Hermione sharply. "The Inquisitorial Squad, Granger," said Malfoy poiting towards the tiny silver 'I' on his robes just beneath his prefects badge. "A select group of students who are supportive of the Ministry of Magic, hand-picked by Professor Umbridge. Anyway, members of the Inquisitorial Squad do have the power to dock points...so.......(blah blah blah about points for wrongdoings" "He was bluffing," said Ernie, looking appalled. "He can't be allowed to dock points...that woud be ridiculous...it would completely undermine the prefect system." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 14 17:55:15 2004 From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 18:55:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's future... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040714175515.65564.qmail@web25301.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106222 texaschow wrote: --- "cincimaelder" wrote: - When Harry was teaching DA the Patronus charm in OoP, they seemed to > do better than Harry did on his first shot at it. Both Cho and > Hermione where able to summon an animal, and all Harry was able to > manage at first was some wisps vapor. Then Cathy wrote When Harry was learning the Patronus Charm, Lupin used a Boggart, which turned into a Dementor in Harry's case. It had basically the same affect as the real ones did. In the lessons Harry was teaching to the DA, they were in a brightly lit classroom - no dementors to suck the happiness out of them while they practiced their patronuses. Producing a patronus with a dementor in the room is far more difficult than if there is not one present. Now UdderPD I agree with everything you say Cathy but I would like to add that I would think that both Cho and Hermione have far more and happier memories than Harry. As we know these are essential for the casting of a Patronus. TTFN Udder PenDragon ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From estrilda_wolfegg at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 16:03:28 2004 From: estrilda_wolfegg at yahoo.com (estrilda_wolfegg) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 16:03:28 -0000 Subject: Snape as an Occlumens In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106223 "Penny Brooks" wrote: > Snape is an occlumens, and presumably a > legilimens . . . why hasn't Snape used this skill before? The Lexicon has an article explaining not only a convincing analogy between the restrictions on Veritaserum on those that are probably in place against Legilimency, but also specific instances from the books where legilimency was or might have been used with discussions of each. Really no point in repeating it here, so I'll just drop the link. http://www.hp-lexicon.org/magic/legilimency.html If the link doesn't work, go to the hp lexicon, click on magic and then on legilimency and occlumency. Estrilda From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 15:16:15 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 15:16:15 -0000 Subject: In defense of James (yes, the berk). Was: Cockney rhyming slang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106224 Carol wrote: BTW, my request for the James defenders to step forward was not intended as a challenge to a figurative duel. I only wanted to hear what they had to say, preferably in a straightforward, canon-supported sort of way. Neri: Since nobody seems to step forward, I'll take the defense of James (can't stand a good character maligned). My line of defense will be simple. I'm not going to belittle anything that happened in Snape's pensieve memory. I'm going to claim that Pensieve!James is most certainly James at his worst. This is the worst thing he ever done in his life, and we judge his character solely by this moment. How do I prove that this is James' worst moment? Easily. We have canon that Snape was the person James hated the most (well, he probably hated Voldemort even more, but that's different. Voldy was his mortal enemy). We know that this was Snape's worst memory. Ergo, this is the worst thing that James had ever done in his life. Think for a moment about the worst thing you ever done in your life. Put it in writing as objectively and detailed as you can and send to my e-mail. Then tell me if it's fair that I'll judge your character solely by this incident. This is what we are doing to James. If you want to contrast James fairly with (say) Snape, you should NOT compare Pensieve!James with Pensieve!Snape. You should compare Pensieve!James with the worst thing that Snape ever done in his life. How about Snape in PoA trying to hand an innocent man to be executed because he has a 20 yrs old grudge against him, and won't even listen for one minute to this man defending himself? And as several members recently posted, Snape was a DE, and it seems highly improbable that he managed not to take part in any of the favorite sport in that club. After all, Snape placed three "worst memories" in the Pensieve, not one. Would it be far-reaching to speculate that one of them contains the worst thing he'd ever done during his DE career? And suppose Harry would have picked this memory instead of the James' memory. Would it be fair to judge Snape's character solely by this moment? The Pensieve may be objective, but JKR is highly subjective in her choice of what to show in it. As in the case of Ron and Ginny, whom I've just defended here, JKR uses Harry's point-of-view as a powerful but very narrow-beam spotlight. She points this spotlight to what she wants us to see, while living all the rest in the dark. Even when we know what must be in the dark parts, we tend to disregard it, or at least give it less weight. At this moment in the plot, JKR wants (for good reasons, of course) to trash James. So she shows Harry and us, in perfect detail, the worst thing he ever done in his life. This incident is the only direct broadcast we ever got from James' life. Well, there was that "I'll delay him, take Harry and run!" but this low-quality audio (some members are not even sure it's James) is extremely short in comparison with the Pensieve scene, and all the rest we know about James is second-hand. In the past JKR had portrayed him as a saint. Now she portrays him as a heartless bully and a berk. We shouldn't have bought it then, and we should not buy it now. Your'onor, the defense pleads "not guilty" on the ground of biased evidence. Neri From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Wed Jul 14 17:51:10 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 17:51:10 -0000 Subject: Dobby redux (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106225 > Aggie: > > > Malfoy's release of Dobby WAS unintentional but this does not >seem to matter to house elves. In OotP when Hermione was knitting > furiously all the hats and scarves to free the elves, they refused >to clean Griffindor common room in case they accidently picked up the > article of clothing and *unintentionally* freed themselves. If it >works one way round surely it'll work the other. > Bonny: > > Atually, they refuse to clean Gryffindor house because they find >the hats insulting, not because they are afraid of being freed. >> "She still does not care for clothes, Harry Potter. Nor do the other > house-elves. None of them will clean Gryffindor Tower any more, not > with the hats and socks hidden everywhere, they finds them > insulting, sir." > > OotP, Canadaian Hardback, page 342 > > Besides, Mrs. Weasley wanted a house-elf to do the laundry - it is > specifically noted in CoS - and if a house elf could be freed simply > by being handed a garment, they certainly would not be able to do > laundry. I believe there has to be intent. > > Aggie now: So does that mean that you don't believe that Lucius freed Dobby then? That it WAS Harry that freed him somehow. It does follow that it appears Dobby has 'adopted' Harry as a master but if that is the case how was he freed from Lucius? Thanks for adding to my points on this. I realise that TR/LV posed a danger to Harry I was just wondering if there was another reason for Dobby's insistence. From adanabbett at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 15:53:53 2004 From: adanabbett at yahoo.com (Adan) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 15:53:53 -0000 Subject: Harry's future... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106226 cincimaelder wrote: > > - When Harry was teaching DA the Patronus charm in OoP, they seemed to > do better than Harry did on his first shot at it. Both Cho and > Hermione where able to summon an animal, and all Harry was able to > manage at first was some wisps vapor. Adan replies: Perhaps it was easier for them to come up with a truly happy thought. It took Harry quite a while to do that. Also, while we don't know how well Cho does, we do know that Hermione usually does quite well. According to Hagrid (in CoS), there isn't a spell that has come up that Hermione hasn't been able to do. Of course, he does tend to exaggerate. And not everyone in the DA did manage to produce a patronus. Neville and Lavender didn't, I know. Adan From adanabbett at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 15:50:15 2004 From: adanabbett at yahoo.com (Adan) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 15:50:15 -0000 Subject: Snape as an Occlumens In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106227 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Penny Brooks" wrote: > In OooP, we learn that Snape is an occlumens, and presumably a > legilimens, when he has to teach Harry occlumency. What I'm > wondering is: why hasn't Snape used this skill before? There are > many situations in the previous books where Snape has accused Harry > of doing things he did/didn't do, and if he were penetrate minds, as > he does in the occlumency lessons, why didn't he do so at those times > to learn the truth? An example...in CoS, Hermione steals ingredients > from the potions cupboard, but Snape accuses Harry...all he'd have to > do is a little mind-reading, and he'd know it wasn't him. It seems > that Snape's animosity for Harry would give him a propensity to do a > little mind-reading on Harry. That is a good question. My first thought is that using it on someone without their permission could be tantamount to assault, or worse. Now certainly this skill would also come in quite useful for a spy, so I am assuming that he would use it IF the situation warranted it. For someone as private as Snape, though, I imagine it would take a very good reason. Adan, adding yet another element to the "how far would Snape go" debate From mayeaux45 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 15:28:47 2004 From: mayeaux45 at yahoo.com (mayeaux45) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 15:28:47 -0000 Subject: Ron's "poor me" syndrome. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106228 Del, All I'm going to say is that it is hard being a parent, let alone of 7 children! I'm sure Arthur and Molly have done (and continue to do) the best they can with what they have. There is so much love in the Weasley home (not *conditional* love, but *unconditional* love). NEVER once have Arthur or Molly completely disowned one of their children because they are not up to some high standard. If you have ever met a poor family or been poor yourself it is hard. Let me better explain myself. Being poor *sucks* (for lack of a better word)! If having money is something you don't have then being educated is the next best thing. Molly and Arthur only want their children to succeed and work hard because they want them to make something of themselves and get away from the *Weasley* stigma. It's not difficult to see where they are coming from because I have been around several poor families. And in the WW it may be even worse to not have money. My point is...is that Molly and Arthur are not lacking in the 'love department' when it comes to their family (their children especially). They just want the best for them. Hopefully one day, Ron will *grow* up and be able to see that for what it is. Bill, Charlie, Fred, George, and Ginny already have (with the exception of Percy because he is 'power hungry'...but hopefully that will change soon as well). Point is...Ron is loved in all aspects. Mayeaux45, who felt that speaking from close personal experience (with family friends)would give insight into the Weasley family! ;) From lizcampbell513 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 17:15:33 2004 From: lizcampbell513 at yahoo.com (Elizabeth Campbell) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:15:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Thoughts on Re-Reading World Book Day 2004 Transcript Message-ID: <20040714171533.34160.qmail@web21526.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106229 Two random thoughts on re-reading the transcript of the World Book Day 2004 questions to JKR: Q - "If we ever see Sirius again, what form will he be in?" A - "I couldn't possibly answer that for fear of incriminating myself." Could this be related to any of the "foreshadowing" JKR noted in the POA movie? I'm thinking of the scene when leaving the Shrieking Shack, in which Sirius says to Ron and Harry that he's usually quite nice as a dog and that James had suggested he make the transformation permanent. Is it possible that after/during going through the veil he could have transformed and would have to remain a dog? Could he return as a dog, but not as a man? I also seem to remember (though can't find it now) a comment in another interview in which JKR says Harry will get a new pet. Maybe a big, black dog? And -- Q - "Is Remus a pureblood?" A - "Halfblood." OK, probably wild speculation, but the one-word answer - so succinct -just seemed to ring bells about his possibly being the HBP (which I know has been suggested). Hope this is all to the right list, but I'm sure the elves will direct me if not! Liz --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From annettehamel at hotmail.com Wed Jul 14 14:57:14 2004 From: annettehamel at hotmail.com (Annette Hamel) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:57:14 +0000 Subject: "Eleven years" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106230 I don't have the books at hand at the moment, but I've recently started re-reading the series, and noticed that in the first chapter of SS, where the wizarding-world is all atwitter about the happenings at Godric's Hollow, JKR says something to the effect of "it was the most exciting thing that had happened in eleven years." So, what happened eleven years before? Am I forgetting some big event in the WW? It occurs to me that children get their Hogwart's letters at age eleven. So ... did someone unexpected get a letter eleven years before, and set the WW on its ear? That person would be 22 or so at the time of James & Lily's death, around the same age as they are. Thoughts? Annette =^..^= _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 14 18:12:06 2004 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 18:12:06 -0000 Subject: Harry's future... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106231 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "texaschow" wrote: > --- "cincimaelder" wrote: > - When Harry was teaching DA the Patronus charm in OoP, they > seemed to > > do better than Harry did on his first shot at it. Both Cho and > > Hermione where able to summon an animal, and all Harry was able to > > manage at first was some wisps vapor. > > When Harry was learning the Patronus Charm, Lupin used a Boggart, > which turned into a Dementor in Harry's case. Also, I don't believe it was the first time they did Patronuses. Harry told them he was planning to teach it after Christmas. I don't have the book here but if I remember correctly the text was something like "they have finally started to do Patronus charms", not that it was the first time necessarily (only that it was Seamus' first DA meeting, and he did not succeed producing it). Incidentally I wonder how Harry intended teaching them Patronus using a boggart. The boggart turns into what the person facing them fears most, which for Harry had been the dementors, but not so for other people. Had he brought in a boggart, and people tried to practice with it, it would not turn into a dementor, unless it was Harry facing it. So how could it work? Salit (picturing Hermione sending her Patronus to charge the boggart masquerading as Professor McGonagal giving her a "D" grade... :-)) From squeakinby at tds.net Wed Jul 14 18:14:38 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:14:38 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] "Eleven years" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40F5780E.80706@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 106232 Annette Hamel wrote: > I don't have the books at hand at the moment, but I've recently started > re-reading the series, and noticed that in the first chapter of SS, where > the wizarding-world is all atwitter about the happenings at Godric's Hollow, > JKR says something to the effect of "it was the most exciting thing that had > happened in eleven years." > > So, what happened eleven years before? Am I forgetting some big event in > the WW? > Maybe it was when Voldemort tried to kill Harry and the AK curse rebounded on Voldemort seemingly destroying him and making Harry "The Boy Who Lived", scarring him, imparting some of Voldy's powers to him and basically the event that was the catalyst of the HP series. Jem From mayeaux45 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 15:08:45 2004 From: mayeaux45 at yahoo.com (mayeaux45) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 15:08:45 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106233 Dear Paul, Don't worry. I personally did not take any offense to your previous post. Actually, I agree with you. I too am guilty of playing the Ron vs. Harry card. And some of the posts have been repetitive over the course of not only months, but weeks! In a span of 2 days I can read 3 to 4 similar posts with the same argument. I am also not excluding myself from this lists of people. I'm all in favor of all of us coming to a mutual agreement to find a way to critically think of the different aspects of the HP series (Ron , Harry, Hermione...) without repeating ourselves or each other. But...I can not make any promises as I too get caught up in it all quite frequently. Moving on...I just want to see Harry happy and ALIVE at the end of all this, as well as Ron and Hermione. They all deserve it really. They're in this war together! I'm just a *hopeless* romantic at heart and would like to see Harry find that *love* and acceptance that he has been searching for all his life. With all the stuff he's been through, it seems like Harry is 16 going on 30! I just like the thought that there is a good chance he might end up with Hermione. JKR has already hinted that it might be one of the two...which one? That's the discussion I like having. It brings different interpretations to light and in doing so causes me (and hopefully other HP fans) to re-read the books to try and see the possiblities. Mayeaux45, who feels at home when talking to other older HP fans. You all are great! :) From hallisallimalli at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 14:32:42 2004 From: hallisallimalli at yahoo.com (halli) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:32:42 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106234 > Del wrote : > I think someone like Harry, who usually keeps his head cool during a > battle, would have acted like that : take one opponent out of the > battle so that you can deal more easily with the other one. But Snape > was not Harry : he let his anger take over, and thought only of > translating it in a spell, hence the cutting spell I guess. > > Del Halli: I think it's funny that you said that, especially because of what Snape said about fools that wear their hearts on their sleeves...easy prey for the Dark Lord (Don't have my book, sorry) But Harry is the one you think would act cool during a battle. Not that I'm dissagreeing, just wanted to bring that up. From eleanor at dreamvine.org.uk Wed Jul 14 17:00:55 2004 From: eleanor at dreamvine.org.uk (iamvine) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 17:00:55 -0000 Subject: Harry's future... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106235 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cincimaelder" wrote: > I'm not sure if anyone has ever suggested this because I'm fairly new > to this board, but I believe Harry will be the Defense Against the > Dark Arts teacher at the end of the series. Yes! Lots of signs have been pointing that way, apart from his experience of teaching the DA. * They've run out of potential teachers (or else the Ministry wouldn't have been able to appoint Umbridge). Even before her, Dumbledore was reduced to getting Moody out of retirement, and hiring a known werewolf, and goodness knows what possessed him to hire Gilderoy Lockhart! * The Time-Turner might provide a way for him to teach and study for his NEWTs at the same time. * With Sirius gone, I'd expect Lupin to step into the role of godfather. Lupin can't teach again, but he can advise. Hermione will be a big help, too. * It will bring Harry into the ultimate conflict with Snape. Imagine Snape's feelings when the job he's coveted for years goes to his most hated pupil! * What better way to instil a sense of doom than to give the poor boy the job with the highest mortality/dropout rate in the wizarding world? Let's see, one teacher dead, one incapacitated by memory loss, one Kissed, one imprisoned so that he never got to teach in the first place, and one nervous breakdown. Lupin was the only one who got away with his health intact (or at least no worse than it was to start with). * Apparently JKR has said that someone unexpected will become DADA teacher, and/or that a student will become DADA teacher. I don't have a reference for this except that it's on two of the Fantastic Posts pages. I also don't know whether she was talking about this happening in the time-frame of the books, or at some point after the story ends. I suggest Dumbledore for DADA teacher in book 6. Hogwarts needs someone good, and he's clearly eminently well qualified if he can only find the time. Also, just as killing Sirius was the best way for JKR to hurt Harry in book 5, losing Dumbledore somehow is the worst thing she can do now to hurt the Order of the Phoenix and the anti-Voldemort movement as a whole. They all rely on him far too much, and now we've seen that he's fallible, he could easily be fallible again. With him out of the way, Harry really will be the best candidate left. > - When Harry was teaching DA the Patronus charm in OoP, they seemed to > do better than Harry did on his first shot at it. Both Cho and > Hermione where able to summon an animal, and all Harry was able to > manage at first was some wisps vapor. Maybe it's just because they're older. But also, they didn't have a Boggart to practise on, did they? The Boggart would only work for Harry, since other people have other fears. So it's easier for them. (And the very fact that Harry's worst fear is Dementors makes the Patronus Charm harder for him, surely.) Eleanor From spirited1 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 14 14:00:21 2004 From: spirited1 at sbcglobal.net (Cassie) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:00:21 -0000 Subject: Lily's Eyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106236 >> Susan wrote > > Don't you think that something must happen in Book 6 or 7 about > Harry having his mother's eyes? JKR hits us over the head with this > > observation several times in the first few books -- every time > > someone who knew Lily meets Harry -- but it remains undeveloped. Sandra wrote; > I was also thinking about Lily's eyes, but it was the message > about colours (of spells e.g.) that made me think about it. > Because the colour of Lily's eyes are GREEN (same as Harry's spell > in GoF against LV) opposed to the eyes of LV ( and his spells): RED > (or at least with a red gleam, if I recall correctly). > So I susspect it just adds to them being the major opponents. > I think DD's spells are quite often silver, so that puts him in a > neutral position, I guess. > Maybe we should look more into detail in the use of colour > - o dear I have just realized the Weasleys all have red hair... > But than again it could also be that it is not only Lily's actual > eyes, but that in fact it stands for her point of view ( like with > Snape's pensieve incident). Susan: > > I also hope that Fred and George continue making us laugh. I agree with Harry -- we need the laughter. Sandra: > I agree with that, but I am also counting on Ginny and Luna! Cassie: I never really thought about the color of Lily's eyes, because JKR had said that there was a connection and I assumed it would be explained in the books,particularly in book five (though book two mentioned it). I think now, that it really was. In book five we learn that Lily's sacrifice for Harry was very powerful magic, powerful enough that Voldemort cannot attack Privet Drive because of Aunt Petunia being related to Harry and Lily by blood. I think that the constant reminder of Lily's eyes when looking at Harry was a way to hint that Lily's death was purposeful, and Harry has gained protection and perhaps a way to kill Voldemort from it. Also, Sandra, I didn't think about the color usage at all until now. Voldemort's eyes are red, Harry's are green. Red=Gryffindor, and green=Slytherin. It reminds me strongly of Voldemort slowly taking control of Harry. We know that Harry's love for Sirius drove Voldemort away in the end when they were in the Dep.Of Mysteries. I think that it enforces that while Harry (and possibly Lily?) have a bit of Voldemort inside him, Voldemort has some of Harry in him too. Cassie From tinainfay at msn.com Wed Jul 14 11:21:58 2004 From: tinainfay at msn.com (mrs_sonofgib) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 11:21:58 -0000 Subject: Wishes come true In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106237 Adi wrote: > All this talk about Ron made me think. In the first book Ron sees > himself in the mirror of Erised and he sees that he is the > headboy, quidditch captain and winnder of quidditch cup. One of > these already has happened. Ron did win the quidditch cup. So is > he headed down the Headboy and Captain way? > > And Harry of course sees his parents in the mirror. Will he get > to meet them in some form or is that wish going to remain just > that forever-- a wish? I would say that Harry has already met them 'in some other form.' When they appeared out of Voldemort's wand in GoF. But we can always hope for more, I suppose. ~tina From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Wed Jul 14 17:01:16 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 17:01:16 -0000 Subject: Snape as an Occlumens In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106238 Penny: > In OooP, we learn that Snape is an occlumens, and presumably a > legilimens, when he has to teach Harry occlumency. It seems > that Snape's animosity for Harry would give him a propensity to do >a little mind-reading on Harry. Aggie: But he does doesn't he? All those times when Harry's 'felt as though Snape could read his mind'. I believe that this means that he has. Especially now that we know he has the capacity. This goes for DD as well. Perhaps he (Snape) doesn't do it at the time you mentioned, possibly out of a sense of 'fair play' that the other replies to this post have said, but I believe there are times when he has. From griffin782002 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 11:21:14 2004 From: griffin782002 at yahoo.com (sp. sot.) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 04:21:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wishes come true In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040714112115.7143.qmail@web90006.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106239 Adi wrote: > All this talk about Ron made me think. In the first book Ron sees > himself in the mirror of Erised and he sees that he is the headboy, > quidditch captain and winnder of quidditch cup. One of these already > has happened. Ron did win the quidditch cup. So is he headed down the > Headboy and Captain way? > > And Harry of course sees his parents in the mirror. Will he get to > meet them in some form or is that wish going to remain just that > forever-- a wish? Griffin782002 now: I have some doubts about your comments on the mirror. The mirror of Erised shows your deepest desires. The way you describe it looks more like the mirror in the story of Snowwhite. Griffin782002 From tinainfay at msn.com Wed Jul 14 11:36:07 2004 From: tinainfay at msn.com (mrs_sonofgib) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 11:36:07 -0000 Subject: Ron's "poor me" syndrome. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106240 > Alla: > > Is it a mortal sin for Ron to complain about his poorness? > > Surely not, BUT it does get very annoying. I am expecting > > Ron to put things in perspective by now. > Katie: > > Ron's minor complaints may annoying to you, but I find them > realistic and at times almost endearing. I read over your list of > quotes and couldn't help but think, "so what?" Ron's life *IS* hard. > I don't think he's a constant complainer. (I agree quite firmly with > Del on all this, except on the matter of Molly and Arthur, who I > think are remarkably loving parents even under difficult > circumstances.) And if you can't talk about annoyances with your > friends, who can you talk to? Give me an ordinary, sometimes > slightly self-pitying buddy over a "chin up! can-do!" type any > day. I've often wondered if, at some point, Ron won't do something stupid (against the Cause) for money. Not really a bribe, per se ... but that he might come across a chance to gain money and his actions might cause problems. As I read the complaints about money, I've never taken them as just whining. I can feel his hatred for his condition, I can see that he greatly wants to overcome this condition, and I wonder to what lengths he might go... Am I the only one with these (troublesome) thoughts? ~tina From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 18:59:26 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 18:59:26 -0000 Subject: Ron's "poor me" syndrome. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106241 Alla: "Is it a mortal sin for Ron to complain about his poorness? Surely not, BUT it does get very annoying." Katie: "Ron's minor complaints may annoying to you, but I find them realistic and at times almost endearing. I read over your list of quotes and couldn't help but think, "so what?" Ron's life IS hard. I don't think he's a constant complainer." Tina: "I've often wondered if, at some point, Ron won't do something stupid (against the Cause) for money. Not really a bribe, per se ... but that he might come across a chance to gain money and his actions might cause problems." There was a time Ron was an "at-risk" member of the Trio. He wasn't going to betray Harry in the traitorous, Freddie Corleone sense, but he easily could have let Harry down, failed to show up at a critical time, out of resentment or envy. I believe his money complaints were really self-esteem complaints. Either way, I think they're likely behind him. Ron had a good year this year, and his sense of self-worth has gotten major boosts this year. Among them: He's a prefect, a mark of honor He's out from under the shadow of Forge He's had some success on the Quidditch pitch He did well as Harry's mate and friend. (the fact he was taken out of the action by the brains doesn't hurt, IMO) I'm guessing he feels a lot better. I hope his O.W.L's went well. I do not believe that friendship with a famous superstar hurts a person's self-esteem as long as they have a feeling of place of their own. Ron and Harry can accept each other for who they are. Besides, Ron has seen Harry's lot isn't all that enviable. Jim Ferer From jelly92784 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 18:54:30 2004 From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (jelly92784) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 18:54:30 -0000 Subject: Wishes come true In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106242 > Asian_lovr2: > > While I would like for Ron to be Head Boy, I don't see how that can > happen. Head Boy is not King (or captain) of the Prefects. That seems > to be an independant honor unrelated to Prefect. Also, Head Boys is > not a House appointment, it's a school wide honor; only one Head Boy > and Head Girl in whole school, at least, that's my impression. > > So, while I dearly want Ron to be Head Boy, I just don't see how it > could happen. > Janelle: I think that Ron has a very good chance of ending up as head boy. Look at all the boys in Ron's year: Harry Potter Ron Weasley Dean Thomas Seamus Finnigan Neville Longbottom Ernie McMillan Justin Finch-Fletchley Draco Malfoy Vincent Crabbe Gregory Goyle Theodore Nott There might be one or two others that I'm not thinking about, maybe mentioned in book 5 that I desperately need to reread (don't worry i'm in the process!) Looking at this list Ron does seem like a good choice. Harry had too much to worry about to be prefect in Dumbledore's opinion and I really don't think that that will change any time soon and my guess is that Dumbledore has the final say, after input from all teachers, in who becomes headboy and I think it very likely that he'll choose Ron. (Ron and Hermione- headboy and girl, could be very interesting!) I also think that Ron becomming quidditch captain is very likely. Janelle From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jul 14 19:09:33 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:09:33 -0000 Subject: Severus Snape's character In-Reply-To: <1e9.24d386e8.2e238491@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106243 juli17 at a... wrote: > I'm not going to quote anyone, since there are so many posts on > this subject(!), but I do have a few thoughts regarding Severus > Snape's character and his interactions with other characters. > > 2. Snape treats all students with equal doses of nastiness? > > Not by a long shot. I've been re-reading POA, and Snape definitely > favors Slytherins. In the first Potions class scene, Snape makes > Ron and Harry prepare Draco's potion because Draco is nursing his > supposedly injured arm. It's a safe bet that if Harry came to class > with his arms actually cut off, Snape would tell him to quit whining > and fix his own potion, with his toes if necessary! > Potioncat: I thought it was interesting you chose this example. To me it is one time Snape's behavior is reasonable. Draco joins Harry and Ron, then says he cannot prepare his supplies. Snape makes them prepare the ingredients and does give Draco the better prepared ones....but that was fair. At least, had it been anyone other than Draco it would hve seemed fair. We know what happened, Ron and Harry know what happened. Does Snape? And if he does, he at least handles this episode without sneering. I'd also like to know how Draco pulled the wool over Pomfrey's eyes. Or I'd like to know if there is any chance he wasn't faking. Now, if Harry had indeed come to class in the same state as Draco and we saw a different reaction, that would be meaningful. I'm not so much denying that Snape treats the Gryffindors unfairly, as I am saying that this episode doesn't seem like a good example of it. Potioncat From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 19:25:42 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:25:42 -0000 Subject: Harry's future... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106244 Cincimaelder: "I'm not sure if anyone has ever suggested this because I'm fairly new to this board, but I believe Harry will be the Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher at the end of the series." That was my notion, too, but I believe JKR said that he won't be a teacher. I know it's a mortal sin to point to something JKR said without the quote, so I'm subject to correction here. I was disappointed because my vision was Hermione as Headmistress, Harry as DADA teacher, and some very interesting summer vacations (sounds a little too much like Indiana Jones? Maybe.) Eleanor: "Yes! Lots of signs have been pointing that way, apart from his experience of teaching the DA. "They've run out of potential teachers (or else the Ministry wouldn't have been able to appoint Umbridge). Even before her, Dumbledore was reduced to getting Moody out of retirement, and hiring a known werewolf, and goodness knows what possessed him to hire Gilderoy Lockhart!" I don't thin "reduced" is the word that ought to apply to Moody and Lupin! One way to predict situations when you don't have strong clues is to say, "If this was my problem, what would I do?" This method can work very well. If I was Headmaster, I'd bring both Lupin and Moody back, because everybody would start working double tides at DADA. Lupin would teach the younger students, Moody would teach the older students the rough stuff, and the DA would be the elite practice group, with Harry leading it as a teaching assistant. One of the benefits is that Lupin and Moody would be close to Harry all the time, especially now that we know that the preservation of Harry Potter is an absolute strategic necessity. I don't believe there can be any objection anymore to Lupin as a teacher, BTW. Dumbledore would be a fine teacher, but he won't have the time. Your point about Harry being DADA teacher exacerbating his conflict with Snape is well taken. My scenario would make the conflict no less sharp. Harry is showing himself to be a natural as a teacher and as a leader. I was very, very pleased to see the students gathering around him at last ? the DA scene on the train is important. Harry is going to assume more and more of the leader's mantle, especially if, as so many expect, Dumbledore will depart the scene at some point before the end. Jim Ferer From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 19:24:25 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:24:25 -0000 Subject: Ron's "poor me" syndrome. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106245 mayeaux45 wrote: > NEVER once have Arthur or Molly completely disowned one of their > children because they are not up to some high standard. Del replies : I never said they did. I just said that when Molly realised that Ron was not going to be the Next Perfect Weasley Boy, she stopped *believing* in him. He did all those great things, he didn't cause anywhere as much trouble as the Twins, but just because he didn't get good grades, she lost all hope for him. She didn't hope, not even a little, that maybe he would be made Prefect. I find that sad to see a mother who has given up so completely on her kid. Mayeaux wrote : > If you have ever met a poor family or been poor yourself it is hard. > Let me better explain myself. Being poor *sucks* (for lack of a > better word)! If having money is something you don't have then > being educated is the next best thing. Del replies : We were poor when I grew up, and yes my mom put a lot of emphasis on education. But even more than that, she tried to make us feel good and capable, because she knew that as long as we believed in ourselves, we would manage somehow. My little sister was nowhere as good academically as I was, but my mom *never* gave up on her. She supported her in her various entreprises, she made sure she found fulfillment in other areas of her life. Sure, she did insist that she obtains her high school diploma, but she was very happy that my sister scraped a pass, while she had expected much more from me. And as for our post-school lives, she *never* tried to force us in a particular way. She loved us and so she wanted us to be happy more than anything else, even if that meant having a "low" job, as long as we liked it. Molly kept pushing the twins to do more than good in their studies, even when it was *obvious* that they didn't care, and she kept pestering them about getting into the Ministry, even when they'd already decided what they wanted to do with their life. Mayeaux wrote : > Molly and Arthur only want their children to succeed and work hard > because they want them to make something of themselves and get away > from the *Weasley* stigma. Del replies : But sadly, when one of their sons does *exactly* that, they crush him. What Arthur did to Percy was cruel, and I don't blame Percy in the least for losing his mind. Mayeaux wrote : > Point is...Ron is loved in all aspects. Del replies : But just as we've argued a few days ago about Harry and the support he receives but can't feel, I'm afraid Ron doesn't really *feel* the love his parents have for him, because they don't show it to him in ways he can recognise. Del, who loves Molly nonetheless From drliss at comcast.net Wed Jul 14 18:46:56 2004 From: drliss at comcast.net (drliss at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 18:46:56 +0000 Subject: Harry's Future... Message-ID: <071420041846.25927.40F57FA00006A7930000654722007347489C9C07049D0B@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 106246 cincimaelder > - When Harry was teaching DA the Patronus charm in OoP, they seemed to > do better than Harry did on his first shot at it. Both Cho and > Hermione where able to summon an animal, and all Harry was able to > manage at first was some wisps vapor. GEO: Possibly because Harry was a better teacher and that the students that he recruited were all fairly advanced level students (Cho was a Ravenclaw sixth year and Hermione is pretty brilliant) or else Lupin was a really bad teacher. Afterall that fellow couldn't even restrain Sirius and James during his maurauder days. I don't think it was that Lupin was a bad teacher. I think it was more along the advanced level students lines, and the fact that Hermione and Cho weren't trying to produce Patronuses around Dementors who were making them hear their mother's death. Cho and Hermione seem like they're pretty well adjusted girls with lots of strong, happy memories. Plus, as Geo pointed out, they're extremely bright. But Harrry was a.) younger (a 3rd year as opposed to a 5th year), and b.) trying to create his Patronus with a dementor nearby (or a boggart dementor, but same difference in this case). I also don't think that Lupin being unable to restrain Sirius and James during their school years is any indication of what kind of teacher he is- just that he caved easily to peer pressure at the time. (Notice that while he can't completely restrain Sirius in OotP, Lupin is the only one that can get Sirius to do what he wants without too much argument- at least up to a point.) Besides, let's put Fred and George on the same level as Sirius and James- even McGonagall, who is undoubtedly an excellent teacher, can't completely restrain those two! A good teacher isn't always an excellent disciplinarian, and vice versa! Lissa From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Wed Jul 14 19:40:45 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:40:45 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily's Eyes & Blood Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106247 Aggie: I do wonder if we've missed something as you quoted, "He shed her blood, but it lives on in you and her sister." Now I realise this probably just means that LV killed her, but what if you take it literally. 'He shed her blood' but we know -or do we?- that he didn't shed a drop. If he AK'd her then no blood was spilt. Gina: I have this strange theory I normally associate with DD that may fit here, but like I said it is crazy. I always wondered if DD could not look into Harry's eyes when LV was "there" because DD is an animagus of some animal that fears snakes??? Maybe Lily has something or was something that's blood would be toxic to a snake. Or if you go back to the thought of LV surviving off unicorn blood??? I have always thought there was more to what Firenze said about Unicorn blood. Any comments, ideas, snide remarks?? Gina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 14 19:52:23 2004 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:52:23 -0000 Subject: Harry's future... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106248 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "iamvine" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cincimaelder" > wrote: > > I'm not sure if anyone has ever suggested this because I'm fairly > new > > to this board, but I believe Harry will be the Defense Against the > > Dark Arts teacher at the end of the series. > * The Time-Turner might provide a way for him to teach and study for > his NEWTs at the same time. Harry does not know enough yet to teach DADA. It was evident during the battle at the DoM. Both the DE's and OoP members knew many more spells and other tricks, and had much more experience with duelling (read the description of Sirius and Bellatrix duel). Running the DA as a one-week practical DADA session for advanced students is a good idea, but he is not ready for fulltime position, even if he had the time. Using the Time-Turner is not going to help in any case - it will leave him no time for sleep, leisure activities or his beloved quidditch practices. Hermione gave up on it after her experience after all. Also, teaching DADA is more than a fulltime job - it's a required class during the first 5 years and is taught to each house separately. This comes up to 20 weekly or bi-weekly 2-hour sessions, plus two advanced DADA classes (for the 6th and 7th year students). While these are presumably taught to a mixed house audience, they will now have people clamouring to sign up for them because of the upcoming war, which means possibly opening intermediate level DADA classes for older students. This is a tall order even for a fulltime teacher. I never understood how the miscellanous DADA teachers (as well as Flitwick and McGonnagal in their respective subjects) managed that load. Other classes after all combine students from two houses. Salit From annettehamel at hotmail.com Wed Jul 14 19:00:28 2004 From: annettehamel at hotmail.com (Annette Hamel) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:00:28 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] "Eleven years" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106249 Annette Hamel wrote: > I don't have the books at hand at the moment, but I've recently started > re-reading the series, and noticed that in the first chapter of SS, where > the wizarding-world is all atwitter about the happenings at Godric's Hollow, > JKR says something to the effect of "it was the most exciting thing that had > happened in eleven years." > > So, what happened eleven years before? Am I forgetting some big event in > the WW? > Then Jem wrote: <> Now me (Annette) again: I think you're misunderstanding me, Jem. At the very beginning of the story, when Harry is still a baby and Voldemort tries to kill him, the book says it's the most exciting thing that's happened in eleven years. That would imply that something happened 11 years *before*, i.e., about 10 years before Harry was *born*. Annette =^..^= _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 19:52:22 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:52:22 -0000 Subject: "Eleven years" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106250 Annette Hamel wrote: > in the first chapter of SS, where the wizarding-world is all > atwitter about the happenings at Godric's Hollow, JKR says something > to the effect of "it was the most exciting thing that had happened > in eleven years." > > So, what happened eleven years before? Am I forgetting some big > event in the WW? Del replies : I took it to mean that the First War had lasted 11 years. And it *did* occur to me to wonder if it could have *anything* to do with a kid entering Hogwarts around the times the Marauders did. Del From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Wed Jul 14 19:36:14 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:36:14 -0000 Subject: Dobby redux In-Reply-To: <3A0BB241-D587-11D8-AB9D-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106251 Kneasy: >What's with Dobby? > Personally I can't stand the little creep. > It may be movie contamination Aggie: What were your thoughts on Dobby before seeing the movie? Kneasy: > LARGE SNIP > > Still, that's never stopped a conspiracy theorist before, so... > > Dobby is under orders from Lucius. > LARGE SNIP > Aggie: I've been thinking about this again and I was wondering if Dobby had been 'played' by Lucius just as he was by Crouch!Moody in GoF (Thanks Bonny for reminding me of the gillyweed!). That Lucius made sure Dobby overheard a conversation or two, knowing (somehow) that Dobby would rush off and warn Harry. Lucius would also know that Dobby couldn't tell Harry everything because of the 'code'. But there is something that I want to get straight in my mind and I do apologise for the ramblings of a newbie here as I'm sure it's been discussed before, sometimes new eyes though do see new things. . .ok, very rarely!! ;o) What was the whole point of opening the Chamber? If Harry wasn't at Hogwarts, if Dobby had said, 'Don't go' and he didn't, what would have happened? It appears that most (including DD) believe that it was to discredit Arthur Weasley. How would that have worked? If Ginny hadn't thrown the diary away and TR had managed to drain her of her life force entirely, how would that have discredited Arthur? How would TR have got everyone to believe that Ginny had petrified the students? He couldn't have strolled into DD's office and said 'Aren't I a clever boy DD, I've caught the culprit again!! My, you have aged haven't you? Just look at me, I keep getting told I don't look a day older than 16!!' Even if he managed to get Ginny's body out of the Chamber, who would think that she's the Heir of Slytherin? Likewise, if he had LEFT her in the chamber, how would that have helped? I realise that opening the Chamber would have helped LM discredit DD as well, and might have got him the sack and that TR had some fun with his pet snake but now i've thought about it a bit, it doesn't seem to satisfy!!! Any thoughts? I'm sure it's going to be a *D'oh* moment when I read all your replies but please help!! From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Wed Jul 14 18:50:38 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 18:50:38 -0000 Subject: "Eleven years" In-Reply-To: <40F5780E.80706@tds.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106252 Annette: SNIP. . . and noticed that in the first chapter of SS, where > > the wizarding-world is all atwitter about the happenings at >Godric's Hollow, JKR says something to the effect of "it was the >most exciting thing that had happened in eleven years." > > > > So, what happened eleven years before? Am I forgetting some big event in > > the WW? Jem: > Maybe it was when Voldemort tried to kill Harry and the AK curse > rebounded on Voldemort seemingly destroying him and making >Harry "The Boy Who Lived", scarring him, imparting some of Voldy's >powers to him and basically the event that was the catalyst of the >HP series. Aggie: I think Annette was referring to eleven years BEFORE Harry got his scar. My take on it was that eleven years prior to GH was when VW1 started. That there was more partying than had happened in eleven years because for eleven years all the WW had been living in a war zone. Could I have *said* eleven years any more times? ;0) From flyballcairn at bellsouth.net Wed Jul 14 19:29:22 2004 From: flyballcairn at bellsouth.net (Danielle Arnt) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:29:22 -0500 Subject: OOTP "Like a snake" comment by Lucius Malfoy Message-ID: <016001c469d8$ddee7060$5302a8c0@Shadowfax> No: HPFGUIDX 106253 I've been rereading OOTP and this comment just zapped out at me. This may have been discussed before, but the FAQs are quite a tome. In the American version, chapter 9, pg 154, when Harry runs into Lucius in the hall outside the courtroom: " 'Quite astonishing, the way you continue to wriggle out of very tight holes...Snakelike, in fact..." I'm not sure if this is a reference to the Daily Prophet publishing stories about Harry being a parselmouth, a reference to COS, or even a warning (some folks have proposed that Lucius is a spy in order to gain power for himself). Any thoughts? Danie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Jul 14 19:59:55 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:59:55 -0000 Subject: Harry's future... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106254 > Cincimaelder: "I'm not sure if anyone has ever suggested this because I'm fairly new to this board, but I believe Harry will be the Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher at the end of the series." > Jim Ferer: > That was my notion, too, but I believe JKR said that he won't be a teacher. I know it's a mortal sin to point to something JKR said without the quote, so I'm subject to correction here. Pippin: You remember correctly: http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/1999/1099-connectiontr ansc.html Well, because all your kids said `hello' so nicely in the background there, I am going to give you information I haven't given anyone else and I will tell you that one of the characters, one of Harry's classmates, though it's not Harry himself, does end up a teacher at Hogwarts. But, it is not, maybe the one you think, hint, hint, hint. Yeah, one of them does end up staying at Hogwarts, but ---- Do the kids want to guess at it, Kathleen? Do you guys have a guess as to who it is? (Kids shouting in background) Ron They say Ron. No, it's not Ron. I can't see Ron as a teacher. No way. -------- Jim: I don't believe there can be any objection anymore to Lupin as a teacher, BTW.< Pippin: Really? Could you elaborate? It certainly doesn't sound in OOP as if the WW have lost their objections to werewolves. Pippin From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Wed Jul 14 19:56:24 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:56:24 -0000 Subject: Severus Snape's character In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106255 > Potioncat: > I thought it was interesting you chose this example. To me it is >one time Snape's behavior is reasonable. Draco joins Harry and Ron, >then says he cannot prepare his supplies. Snape makes them prepare >the ingredients and does give Draco the better prepared ones....but >that was fair. At least, had it been anyone other than Draco it >would hve seemed fair. We know what happened, Ron and Harry know what happened. Does Snape? And if he does, he at least handles this > episode without sneering. > I'd also like to know how Draco pulled the wool over Pomfrey's eyes. > Or I'd like to know if there is any chance he wasn't faking. Aggie: The way I see it is that Buckbeak DID really hurt Draco's arm, it must have done from the description. PoA UK version p90 'It happened in a flash of steely talons:Malfoy let out a high-pitched scream. . .>' It does sound like he was in a lot of pain but it's likely he just milked it for all it was worth. Mme Pomfrey, not known for her liking of dangerous animals, would have patched Draco up, arm in sling all bandaged up. If it's anything like me taking my daughter to the hospital because she's hurt her arm, after the initial consultation, if nothing's been broken, then you don't go back. I imagined this to be what happened here. He initially saw Mme Pomfrey, when it was bad, but didn't go back. He just kept his arm in the sling for as long as he felt necessary!! *Little git* ;o) From tzakis1225 at netzero.com Wed Jul 14 20:32:00 2004 From: tzakis1225 at netzero.com (demetra1225) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:32:00 -0000 Subject: Dobby redux In-Reply-To: <3A0BB241-D587-11D8-AB9D-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106256 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Barry Arrowsmith wrote: [ship] > Secondly - there's this mysterious Office for House Elf Relocation in > the Ministry. Herself rarely does something without good reason and > this seems a largely irrelevant snippet to throw into FBaWTFT - > especially since House Elves aren't mentioned in the body of the text, > there's just this brief reference in 'About the Author'. Hmm. I find > that suspicious, but then I find everything suspicious. Demetra: What does this department do? In GoF, Dobby says that he and Winky went out looking for work together. No one wanted to take them on because they wanted "paying". Why didn't the department find them new positions? Why did they have to wander around looking for work until they made their way to Hogwarts and Dumbledore? Kneasy: It's the third possibility that I find fascinating, mostly because it > opens up vistas of double-dealing, betrayal and duplicity. Lovely! > Unfortunately, for all it's attractions it's the option with the least evidential or even inferential support. Still, that's never stopped a conspiracy theorist before, so... > > Dobby is under orders from Lucius. > After all, it's not just a single visit to Privet Drive we're talking > about, he drops in on Harry at Hogwarts a few times too. How often can > House Elves flout their masters wishes, for Heavens sake? Once - > possible; more seems a bit iffy to me. Demetra: Yep, very suspicious. And I can't believe that Lucius would not have forbid Dobby from coming and going as he pleased. Either Dobby was deliberately disobeying his master on multiple occasions or Dobby was acting on Lucius' directive. Kneasy: [snip] Personally, I think option 2 is the likeliest, but option 3 has the > most potential for fun and games. Demetra: Severus Snape and Lucius Malfoy, the double act of double agents. Slippery supposed friends do make the best spies, don't they? From flamingstarchows at att.net Wed Jul 14 20:38:36 2004 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (texaschow) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:38:36 -0000 Subject: Harry's future... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106257 > > Cincimaelder: "I'm not sure if anyone has ever suggested this > because I'm fairly new to this board, but I believe Harry will be > the Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher at the end of the > series." > > > Jim Ferer: > > That was my notion, too, but I believe JKR said that he won't be > a teacher. I know it's a mortal sin to point to something JKR said > without the quote, so I'm subject to correction here. > > Pippin: > > You remember correctly: > > http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/1999/1099-connectiontr > ansc.html > > Well, because all your kids said `hello' so nicely in the > background there, I am going to give you information I haven't > given anyone else and I will tell you that one of the characters, > one of Harry's classmates, though it's not Harry himself, > does > end up a teacher at Hogwarts. But, it is not, maybe the one you > think, hint, hint, hint. Yeah, one of them does end up staying at > Hogwarts, but ---- > Do the kids want to guess at it, Kathleen? > Do you guys have a guess as to who it is? > (Kids shouting in background) Ron > They say Ron. > No, it's not Ron. I can't see Ron as a teacher. No way. > -------- Sorry, I never know how much to snip out to be relevant - I think that Neville will end up being the one to come back as a teacher. He's very good (probably excellent)at herbology, and would be the perfect "absent-minded professor." ~Cathy~ From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Jul 14 20:42:26 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:42:26 -0000 Subject: Dobby redux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106258 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aggiepaddy" wrote: > > But there is something that I want to get straight in my mind and I > do apologise for the ramblings of a newbie here as I'm sure it's been > discussed before, sometimes new eyes though do see new things. . .ok, > very rarely!! ;o) > > What was the whole point of opening the Chamber? > Kneasy: We don't really know, apart from spreading a reign of terror and possibly getting DD sacked. Just what the revived Tom Riddle was intended to achieve is still a mystery. From what was said in the Chamber, Harry's death would have been a bonus, or perhaps the next phase of the plan. The whole point of the plot seems to have been the resurrection of Tom. There have been hints from herself that we'll learn more later about this. Aggie: > If Harry wasn't at Hogwarts, if Dobby had said, 'Don't go' and he > didn't, what would have happened? It appears that most (including > DD) believe that it was to discredit Arthur Weasley. How would that > have worked? If Ginny hadn't thrown the diary away and TR had > managed to drain her of her life force entirely, how would that have > discredited Arthur? Kneasy: Headlines in the Daily Prophet: "Daughter of Ministry Employee Dies Using Dark Magic Artifact That Unleashes Monster On Fellow Students." Arthurs credibility would be shot - and he's a major DD supporter in the Ministry. Presumably Tom stays out of the limelight and doesn't claim any of the credit. Why should he? Presumably he's not there to take centre stage - he'll have other fish to fry, other dirty deeds to perform. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 20:52:35 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:52:35 -0000 Subject: Who's the third dead death eater? / 'One who's left me forever...' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106259 kandbmom wrote: This whole chapter leaves me with unanswered questions. I > am also considering the idea that Snape could have been the man > standing next to the space that separated Lucius and "the next man". > I have a feeling Snape is "the next man" We know he had the mark and > he surely felt it burn and turn black. Carol responds: Unless we go with the time turner theory--and it's most unlikely that Snape had one--he could not have been at the graveyard. He was at the Tri-wizard tournament, and you can't apparate from Hogwarts. We also have his words to Karkaroff earlier--something along the lines of "Flee, then! Flee! I will remain at Hogwarts." He also reports that Karkaroff fled at the end of the tournament, when Cedric and Harry disappeared. JKR has said somewhere that we should be able to figure out who the three DEs are (the loyal servant, the coward, and the one who has left forever). I really see no reason why we should strain ourselves to interpret this passage in any way other than the one we know to be true, Barty Crouch Jr. was the loyal servant at Hogwarts (but not for long!), Karkaroff was a coward who fled, Snape was disloyal to Voldemort and had long ago left him forever (a discovery Voldemort was belatedly making). The only problems here are Voldemort's prediction that the one who has left forever will be killed and the fact that Snape is still alive. These problems are in fact easily resolved. First, Voldemort is not a prophet and we don't need to believe that Snape will die just because he said so. Second, Snape has a legitimate excuse for not being there--as he and Hermione keep saying, you can't apparate from Hogwarts. All he has to do is to explain to Lucius Malfoy why he wasn't there and have Malfoy pass this information on to Voldemort and he's back where he started (under some suspicion, maybe, because he tried to prevent Quirrell from getting the philosopher's stone, but not proven to be disloyal because he didn't know that Voldemort was inside Quirrell's head). I really think we're reaching too far for explanations with this one. BTW, other Death Eaters remain unmentioned. Why does the narrator describe a gap large enough for two people when LV talks about the Lestranges (and elsewhere Sirius refers to them as "a married couple")? We know that there are three Lestranges and that Rabastan as well as Rodolphus and Bellatrix was a loyal servant who tortured the Longbottoms and tried to find Voldemort after Godric's Hollow. Why praise Rodolphus and Bellatrix for their loyalty and promise them a reward and not do the same for Rabastan? (Not that I think Rabastan is a good guy and deserves a reward--I just wonder what he's doing in the story and why he's been overlooked twice.) I agree with other posters that the third DE missing in LV's service is probably Travers. The others mentioned by Karkaroff in the Pensieve scene are all accounted for. Fudge says later, when Harry lists Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, Macnair, Avery, and Nott as being present at the graveyard, that Harry is only naming people who had been charged with being Death Eaters and cleared (presumably by claiming that they'd been Imperio'd). It's interesting that LV names only *those* DEs--and the Lestranges, who are known to be in Azkaban. He doesn't even name the coward, etc. As Karkaroff said in the Pensieve scene, the DEs themselves didn't know the names of everyone present, and LV seems to be naming only those whose names would already be known to everyone present. What I can't remember is how many escaped from Azkaban. Wasn't it ten? But only twelve people participated in the MoM raid, and five of those were "Death Eaters who walked free"--five of the six named by LV in the graveyard (not counting Wormtail, who is not exactly named and is still presumed dead by the WW at large). So seven of the ten(?) escapees participated in the raid; three(?) did not. Neither did Goyle or Wormtail. So we have five(?) DEs plus an unknown number (surely not more than a dozen) who were skipped by Voldemort in the graveyard. As I've said before, this limited number doesn't fit very well with the statement by one of the Order members in OoP that the Order members (of whom there were about twenty) were outnumbered by the DEs ten to one, especially if only three DEs died in Voldemort's service. How many died in Azkaban. Over a hundred? And do they not count as dying in his service because they died after they were caught? Surely the original circle must have been much bigger? (Unless, as has been argued, these DEs constituted LV's "inner circle.") Can anyone point me to the chapter that mentions the escape from Azkaban? I don't have time to hunt up the reference now, but I want to know if I'm right about seven out of ten of the escapees participating in the raid and three (not counting Bellatrix) being still at large. Carol, who will bet at least five knuts that Snape is "the one who will not return" even though she doesn't have them handy at the moment From meriaugust at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 20:52:40 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:52:40 -0000 Subject: "Eleven years" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106260 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Annette Hamel" wrote: > Annette Hamel wrote: > > > I don't have the books at hand at the moment, but I've recently started > > re-reading the series, and noticed that in the first chapter of SS, where > > the wizarding-world is all atwitter about the happenings at Godric's > Hollow, > > JKR says something to the effect of "it was the most exciting thing that > had > > happened in eleven years." > > > > So, what happened eleven years before? Am I forgetting some big event in > > the WW? > > > > Then Jem wrote: > < rebounded on Voldemort seemingly destroying him and making Harry "The > Boy Who Lived", scarring him, imparting some of Voldy's powers to him > and basically the event that was the catalyst of the HP series.>> > > Now me (Annette) again: > I think you're misunderstanding me, Jem. At the very beginning of the > story, when Harry is still a baby and Voldemort tries to kill him, the book > says it's the most exciting thing that's happened in eleven years. That > would imply that something happened 11 years *before*, i.e., about 10 years > before Harry was *born*. > > Annette > =^..^= I don't have the book with me myself, but I believe that the quote you are referreing to is DD to McGonagal, who has been complaining about her fellow wizards being overtly exuberant in their celebration, and DD says to her that they should be allowed because "we've had precious little to celebrate for the last eleven years" meaning that they've had very little to party over since the LV War began eleven years ago. Meri - who realizes that it is kind of a good thing that she's read SS 25 times... From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 14 20:52:01 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:52:01 -0000 Subject: Royal Albert Hall Appearance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106261 vmonte: > > > > Royal Albert Hall Appearance > > > > June 26 2003 ____________________________________________________________________ > > > > JKR: Dumbledore, um, I don't want to say too much on this because > you > > may find that it gives too much away but Dumbledore is a very wise > > man who firstly knows that Harry is going to have to learn a few > hard > > lessons to prepare him for what may be coming in his life so he > > allows Harry to do an awful lot of things he maybe wouldn't allow > > another pupil to do and he also unwillingly permits Harry to > confront > > a lot of things rather than protect him from but as people who have > > finished Order of the Phoenix will know Dumbledore has had to step > > back a little bit from Harry in an effort to teach him some of > life's > > harder lessons. > > > > SF: You have to push your beloved chickens out of the nest > > > > JKR: You do > > > > vmonte: DD training Harry?! More canon for SSSusan's theory about > > Harry in SS/PS. Dzeytoun's reply: > As I recall, this was in response to a question > about why Dumbledore doesn't react more to some of the injustice > Harry faces from Malfoy and company. I think the moderator made the > statement that "When we are young we keenly feel injustice... For > instance, Dumbledore KNOWS the parents are Death Eaters." One > plausible interpretation of her answer is that although Dumbledore > would rather protect Harry from this injustice (i.e. silence Malfoy > and perhaps tell Snape to cool it), he knows that Harry needs to > learn the poltiical realities up front, so he will be prepared to > deal with the harsh battle that is coming. That is quite a bit > different from setting up "tests" or "training exercises." > > I will admit though, that this is one of JKR's most evasive and > frustrating statements. It is hard to know what she means with any > degree of certainty, whether with regard to OOTP or anything else. SSSusan: WAY TO GO, VMONTE!!!! WELL DONE, and I thank you! :-) And hey, why call it my theory? It's yours, as well, isn't it? Or have you cast it aside? Dzeytoun, I thank you for contributing your recollection of the context of the quote Vmonte sent in. It will keep me from getting my hopes up *too* high. **BUT STILL!!** I think, in particular, the phrase "[DD] allows Harry to do an awful lot of things he maybe wouldn't allow another pupil to do" fits very nicely with all those dangerous encounters, task-related & skill-testing & ability-advancing "adventures," and Harry's "I must save the day" actions. In fact, I think the phrase fits better with those things--*and* with the possibility of the SS "obstacle course" as being set up for Harry--than it does w/ describing DD's allowing Harry to encounter DE kids & a sadistic Snape. Siriusly Snapey Susan, doing a little happy dance just now. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Jul 14 20:16:05 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:16:05 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius lure Severus into the Willow? (was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106262 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brenda M." wrote: > heavy snipping> > Brenda: You say "How did you reach them? Any evidence? Any at all?" > > This is my fault, I apologize. I was assuming that it would be > somewhat clear how my logic was laid out. So here it is -- my > speculation as to HOW DD 'blackmailed' SSSnivellus (irresistable) to > keep his mouth shut (about the whole Shrieking Shack fiasco and > Lupin's nature): > > (1) DD kindly reminds Snape that he is also half-human and he must > treat all the students same -- that is, IF Lupin gets expelled from > this (Howler!parents), so must Snape. > (2) Snape is another orphan who stayed at Hogwarts for the summer and > DD tells him he can't grant him this priviledge if Snape were to go > blabbing. > > So how did I reach these specific scenarios? > > I was thinking whatever 'blackmail material' DD had against Snape, it > had to be something very PERSONAL for Snape that it was worth missing > his *one* chance (perhaps the only) to see Sirius and Lupin expelled. > > (1) From Shrieking Shack scene in PoA where Lupin explains that he > had been tempted to inform DD of Padfoot!Sirius but he was afraid of > betraying his trust. DD had allowed him to attend Hogwarts despite of > his condition when no other Headmasters would. Then I remembered > seeing some HPFG posters saying "Snape is a vampire". (I still have > *no clue* how people got this idea and I would love to see how they > argue on that.) Kneasy: Shh! Not so loud. There are posters still in denial over this one. Vampire!Snape was a quite popular theory at one time with posts, not-so-veiled insults and cries of anguish reverberating around the site. The evidence was thin; very thin and all of it inferential, but the enthusiasts stuck to their guns - until JKR's web chat, 4th March this year. Megan: Is there a link between Snape and vampires? JKR: Erm..I don't think so. This pretty well put the mockers on that one, because if Snape was vampire or part vampire then the answer would have been "Yes" or maybe something more enigmatic or "I can't tell you". Some still have hopes that his Patronus or Animagus form is a bat, which is just about possible from JKR's answer. But any hope of Snape being blackmailed because of Dracular tendencies is a non-starter. And there are no indications that he has any other zoologically interesting ancestors either. >Bren: > (2) Tom Riddle closed the Chamber of Secrets and blamed Hagrid from > the fear of not being able to stay at Hogwarts for the summer. IMO > Tom Riddle LOVED being the Heir of Slytherin, he loved the idea > of 'purging those who are not worthy of studying magic'. Then why did > he close it? To him, going back to orphanage for the summer was > simply too painful to bear that he would rather close the Chamber. > Not to mention providing some degree of closure to Moaning Myrtle's > parents, but I doubt TR cared about that too much. And I thought this > was a nice parallel to how Snape would have felt after Shrieking > Shack Fiasco. > [Also, it was only for the SUMMER, Snape wouldn't necessarily freeze > in snow during England's summer, would he?!] > Kneasy: Snape an orphan? I can't remember ever seeing that mentioned before. The TR stuff is canon, but so far as I can recall, we have absolutely no information about Sevvy's family situation - except that 'crying child' memory. This has been interpreted two ways; most think that the crying child is Sevvy and that it's a vision of an unhappy childhood. Others (me included) aren't so sure; Snape could be the adult. But whichever it is, it tells us nothing about Snape and his family in his Hogwarts years or whether he was an orphan or not. We just don't know. (If there are posters who know differently, please post with details.) The inference is that he wasn't - you don't learn Dark Magic curses in an orphanage and Sirius tells us Snape knew plenty when he arrived at Hogwarts... If you can believe Sirius. See, it's pushing things a step too far for my taste. Speculating that Snape is an orphan is one thing, and quite possibly a valid viewpoint if some sort of support can be found; but *needing* Snape to be an orphan so that a *supposed* act of blackmail can take place is not reasonable IMO. I've seen snow in England in June. Rare, but it can happen. This month we've had night-time temps down to 40 F (3-4 C). Summer doesn't necessarily mean a great deal round here. It can get bloody cold. From meriaugust at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 21:00:08 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 21:00:08 -0000 Subject: OOTP "Like a snake" comment by Lucius Malfoy In-Reply-To: <016001c469d8$ddee7060$5302a8c0@Shadowfax> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106263 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danielle Arnt" wrote: > I've been rereading OOTP and this comment just zapped out at me. This may have been discussed before, but the FAQs are quite a tome. > > In the American version, chapter 9, pg 154, when Harry runs into Lucius in the hall outside the courtroom: > > " 'Quite astonishing, the way you continue to wriggle out of very tight holes...Snakelike, in fact..." > > I'm not sure if this is a reference to the Daily Prophet publishing stories about Harry being a parselmouth, a reference to COS, or even a warning (some folks have proposed that Lucius is a spy in order to gain power for himself). Any thoughts? > > Danie I think that LM is just taunting Harry, refering to the night in the graveyard in Order, when Nagini was going to be fed Harry's dead body. IIRC, after that Harry says something akin to "Yeah, I've gotten very good at *escaping*" (emphasis is, I believe, JKR's) which is Harry taunting LM that he blew right past thirty DEs and made it out of the graveyard alive, anyway. A little oneupmanship. As to what this means, I doubt that LM is anything but the slimy, no good (though as Jason Isaacs plays him, kinda hot) DE that we see him to be, I can't really see him warning Harry about anything, and I don't think the major libel stories have yet been published at this point in the story. Meri From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 21:14:03 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 21:14:03 -0000 Subject: Harry's future... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106264 Pippin, quoting JKR: "I will tell you that one of the characters, one of Harry's classmates, though it's not Harry himself, does end up a teacher at Hogwarts. But, it is not, maybe the one you think, hint, hint, hint." Okay, Hermione's out. JKR again:"Do you guys have a guess as to who it is? (Kids shouting in background) Ron They say Ron. No, it's not Ron. I can't see Ron as a teacher. No way. --------" Me either. Cathy guessed Neville; likely enough. (Nothing is too good for Neville in my book.) "Jim (me): 'I don't believe there can be any objection anymore to Lupin as a teacher, BTW.' Pippin: Really? Could you elaborate? It certainly doesn't sound in OOP as if the WW have lost their objections to werewolves." A lot of prejudices will be swept aside now, IMO, now that it's down to survival of the wizard world against Voldemort. At this point Dumbledore can pretty much do whatever he wants, and Fudge's opinion isn't worth a plugged Knut anywhere. It would be like Dumbledore to reappoint Lupin (if he'd take it). DD needs Lupin at Hogwarts, as a teacher, which he's excellent at, as another mentor and protector for Harry, and to help fight the War. So yes, I think it can be done. It probably isn't the solution we'll see in HBP, but it's what I'd do. Jim Ferer From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Wed Jul 14 21:18:02 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 21:18:02 -0000 Subject: the Voldy CV (was "Eleven years") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106265 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Annette Hamel" wrote: > I don't have the books at hand at the moment, but I've recently started > re-reading the series, and noticed that in the first chapter of SS, where > the wizarding-world is all atwitter about the happenings at Godric's Hollow, > JKR says something to the effect of "it was the most exciting thing that had > happened in eleven years." > > So, what happened eleven years before? Am I forgetting some big event in > the WW? > > Carolyn: The quote is from DD 'You can't blame them,' said Dumbledore gently. 'We have had precious little to celebrate for eleven years.' Dumbledore is speaking on 1st November 1981, the day after James & Lily were killed. Eleven years previously takes us back to November 1970, the beginning of Voldemort's reign of terror, as confirmed by Hagrid in Chapter 4 of PS/SS: 'Anyway, this - this wizard, about twenty years ago now, started lookin for followers. Got 'em too -' Voldemort would have been 43 at the time. The Lexicon believes 1970 was the year Dumbledore became Headmaster at Hogwarts, and reminds us that Lucius Malfoy was in his 6th year at school. Harry's parents (and the other Marauders and Snape) may just have started at school, or may have started the following year. Voldie's exploits certainly seem to go in fits and starts. After murdering his father and grandparents at age 17 he disappears for some time, no-one knows where, and sinks himself in the Dark Arts. He doesn't officially re-surface for some 25-26 years, though some speculate he was present (aged 18) in some way at DD's defeat of Grindewald in 1945, perhaps even taking over that evil mantle. Between 1970-1980 he does finally get to have some evil fun and games, and then a spy reports to him half Trelawny's prophecy in June/July 1980 'shortly before [Harry's] birth'. This clearly bothers him a lot, and as Kneasy has recently pointed out, he is so uncertain what to do that he inexplicably waits some 15 months before trying to kill a baby, gets zapped for his trouble, and disappears for another 11 years. After various ineffective attempts between 1991-1995 to re-emerge, he finally gets re-born in the summer of 1995, and has currently had just one year of his new existence, most of that spent lurking in the shadows. Really, when you look back over the CV, he does remind you of one of those awful corporate has-beens, who endlessly trade on the one big job they finally landed after years in the wilderness. Don't most successful big shots spend their early years fighting their way up the greasy pole, stabbing people in the back etc? What on earth has he been doing skulking around in the shadows for most of his life ? Trying to nerve himself to do the unthinkable? You couldn't really say he's made an unqualified success of things. Sounds to me like he made a wrong career decision early on, has gone through the classic mid-life crisis, and should now seriously consider a complete change of direction for his remaining couple of years before Harry has to finish him off in Book 7. More travel perhaps? A cruise? Learn a new language (an easy one like troll, given the short time available)? In another classic contribution, Kneasy suggested growing begonias, but this is really too cruel, no one should be forced that low. But if its that or day- time TV, well, I suppose.. Carolyn From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 22:01:58 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 22:01:58 -0000 Subject: Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: <155.3958951b.2e233a91@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106266 xtremesk8ergurl asked: Another question I have, is if Slytherin and its house is all dark magic, then why do they have a Slytherin house? Carol responds: Someone else asked this question recently and I answered in another post, so I hope everyone will forgive me for repeating my ideas here. (I'd hunt up the original post, but I don't have time to deal with our search engine, which, alas, was designed by Yahoos and is not very efficient.) The short answer is that most Slytherins are chosen not for their interest in Dark magic but for their ambition and cunning, traits valued by Salazar Slytherin but not in themselves necessarily evil. As the Sorting Hat says in SS/PS(?), "Maybe in Slytherin you'll find your true friends" (paraphrasing, sorry)--the implication being that these children would not be happy sorted into a different house. There might be exceptions for unusually intelligent Slytherins who were sorted into Ravenclaw (young Severus Snape?), but not many Slytherins have the courage (or reckless disregard for personal safety) required for Gryffindor. Most are evidently more interested in self-preservation ("Discretion is the better part of valor," as Phineas might have said if Falstaff had not beat him to it). Again, we might make an exception for the young Severus, assuming that he had the courage we see in his older self, but with his particular interest and values (and the particular set of boys who would have been his dormmates), he would have been miserable in Gryffindor. Also there's pride and tradition for those like Draco, who says in book 1, "Imagine being sorted into Hufflepuff"--apparently the ultimate disgrace from his perspective. His family on both sides (not counting a certain renegade first cousin once removed) have all been sorted into Slytherin, and it never occurs to him that any other house might be desirable, but Hufflepuff in particular is for outcasts and rejects (his view, not mine). Think about it this way. Where should the Sorting Hat put Draco if not in Slytherin? He seems reasonably intelligent but definitely not bookish. Would he fit into Ravenclaw? I doubt it. He wouldn't be a leader there because no one would care about his family's pureblood status or money, as the Slytherins in general evidently do. (Theo Nott is a possible exception. We'll see!) How about putting Crabbe and Goyle or Pansy Parkinson in Hufflepuff? Wouldn't they all be misfits--and make the other Hufflepuffs miserable through their resentment and antagonism? As it is, Crabbe and Goyle get to be hangers-on and Pansy has her own gang of Slytherin girls. So at least they're not being rejected by the other kids for their values and personalities and they feel that they belong. Ideally, of course, the houses could be based on something other than personality traits (random selection?) or eliminated altogether. But as things are, wouldn't it be discriminatory to eliminate a house for the ambitious, cunning types, or the children of former Slytherins who have been brought up to value cunning and ambition even if they don't have those traits themselves? Suppose that the Sorting Hat looked into a child's mind and said, in effect, "Well, you're not loyal, courageous, or book-smart. We have no place for you here. Better try Durmstrang. Or get a job washing dishes at the Leaky Cauldron"? I think that would be even worse for relations within the WW than the present situation. Well, not the short answer I intended, except by my standards. Hope it's helpful, or at least gives you something to think about. Carol, who remembers when American public school students were "sorted" into "college-bound," "regular track," and "special ed." and was fortunately spared humiliation by being sorted into the first group From patientx3 at aol.com Wed Jul 14 22:09:27 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 22:09:27 -0000 Subject: "M**blood" and handicap (was Re: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106267 Del wrote: >>Well, technically there are kind of right. What I mind though, is that they seem to consider that because they are handicapped, the Muggles can't bring any worthwhile contribution to the world. They completely dismiss all of the Muggles' accomplishments as just a way to cope with their handicap. [snip] Seen in that light, it's more easily understandable why some pure-bloods are against the Muggle-borns : because they bring a *disability* into the WW. Both their parents are disabled, handicapped, and it's just a lucky chance that they are not too. But who knows what it's going to do in the future ? Maybe their kids or grandkids will be disabled too ?<< HunterGreen: I've always thought that the reason certain wizards are against having muggle-borns in the school is that they're accepting kids who know nothing about magic and every summer are leaving the magical word, and forever have ties with non-magical people. On the surface its not that big of deal, until you look closely at the situation. Hermione for example, as its been discussed in a recent thread, is drifting apart from her parents. It gets to the point where the child and the parent are living such different lives, that the child has to cut their parents out (to some degree), or cut the magical world out during the summer and Christmas holidays. She started out going back and forth between the things that mattered to her during the schoolyear (such as her friends, and studies, and the 'adventures' that were going on each year), and going home during the summer, but now she's hardly around her parents at all. Now why would this matter to the pure-blood-fanaticals? Well, not only is Hermione having to fight between her loyalty to her parents and the WW, but when she first started school if she hadn't been Hermione and studied very hard, the school would have more teaching for her than the natural born wizard children. Sort of like remedial children in regular school, and the whole class having to go slow to teach two or three kids. Of course in the present of the school, this doesn't make much difference, but when you think of the sense of when the school was just starting, imagine the annoyance of Slytherin when he thought of having to pause to explain what basic magic things are. Not only that, but there's a second half of it, meaning their constant ties to the muggle world. Meaning they are more likely to marry a muggle, and more likely to be involved in muggle customs (rather embarassing for the well-to-do wizards who detest muggles), and more likely to spend time with muggles. And then if they have kids, it gets even more complicated, Harry is a good example of this. Had Lily been a pure or mixed blood, when she died and Harry went to her family they would have been wizards. Harry, even though he's far from a muggle-born, represents the problem that can arise from muggle- borns. He knows *nothing* about the WW when he's told he's a wizard, and goes to school relatively clueless, causing Ron and Hermione to have to answer questions for him many in the books. Anyway, all that rambling aside, I think that if the muggle-borns agreed to both cut off all ties to the muggle world, and study harder before the beginning of their first year so they know the *basics* of the WW, then many of the complaints about them would be gone. Of course, expecting those things of them is not really fair or practical, so that's why people like Slytherin didn't want to teach them at all. Now hiding a giant snake in a secret chamber to be released and kill all the muggle-borns, THAT'S a different problem altogether. Del: >>In the light of that analogy, I think the problem with the word "Mudblood" is not so much that it is an insult, but that it is acknowledging a truth that nobody else wants to hear.<< HunterGreen: Yes, I think you have a point there. Everyone is expected to quietly ignore the fact that muggleborns, are indeed muggleborns. Like I said in another post, I think Snape used the term in the pensieve scene not like the way that Malfoy uses it with Hermione (as just an insult, just for the sake of insulting her), but because he was specifically angry and insulted and frustrated with her. He was embarassed. If you look at her reaction, I think she was in some understanding of that, which is what she reacted to. She wasn't mad that he used a "racial slur" against her, but because of his clear lack of gratitude for her standing up for him. Anyway, this post is long enough. BTW Del, great post. From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Jul 14 22:17:46 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 22:17:46 -0000 Subject: Lily's Eyes & Blood In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106268 Aggie: > I do wonder if we've missed something as you quoted, "He shed her > blood, but it lives on in you and her sister." Now I realise > this probably just means that LV killed her, but what if you take > it literally. 'He shed her blood'but we know -or do we?- that he > didn't shed a drop. If he AK'd her then no blood was spilt. Jen: Dumbledore's was an odd comment, wasn't it? I've always read over it, but now I wonder if it wasn't tucked in there to explain something *else* about Lily's blood, besides her sacrifice and protection. I agree that none of Lily's blood was literally shed. In fact, Voldemort didn't even want to *figuratively* shed Lily's blood! This theory, that Lily's blood is important for reasons other than the blood sacrifice, could also explain why Voldemort asked Lily to step aside in his attempt to kill Harry. > Gina: Or if you go back to the thought of LV > surviving off unicorn blood??? I have always thought there was more to what > Firenze said about Unicorn blood. Any comments, ideas, snide remarks?? Jen: JKR has given Lily characteristics that are similar to a Unicorn: Pure, unspoiled, strong, innocent. And Unicorn blood also has 'highly magical properties' according to FBAWTFT. If you read Firenze's explanation of killing a Unicorn and apply it to Godric's Hollow, the similarity is astonishing: "..because it is a monstrous thing, to slay a unicorn...You have slain something pure and defenseless to save yourself, and you will have but a half-life, a cursed life, from the moment the blood touches your lips." (SS, chap. 15, p. 258) Certainly Voldemort thought that slaying Harry (and indirectly Lily) would be his salvation! Jen Reese From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Wed Jul 14 22:34:44 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 22:34:44 -0000 Subject: Dobby redux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106269 >> First Aggie wrote: >> What was the whole point of opening the Chamber? > Then Kneasy responded: > We don't really know, apart from spreading a reign of terror and possibly > getting DD sacked. > Just what the revived Tom Riddle was intended to achieve is still a > mystery. From what was said in the Chamber, Harry's death would > have been a bonus, or perhaps the next phase of the plan. The whole > point of the plot seems to have been the resurrection of Tom. > There have been hints from herself that we'll learn more later about this. boyd: I've always thought that diary!Tom and Lord Voldemort would have been able to, er, merge (please no slashfics here) post-CoS if Tom had won, and thereby become more powerful than before. Remember, at the time, LV still needed a body of his own, and Tom was becoming nearly real until Harry stabbed the diary. Of course, I also wonder whether the diary was meant for Ginny in the first place, or if Lucius had planned on giving it to someone else but got so angry at Arthur in the bookstore that he instead planted it in Ginny's book. And who would have been his original target? Harry, Neville, Ron or Hermione (to kill them)? Whichever student was handy? Or perhaps (yuck) Draco as a sacrificial lamb to LV (to make for a more powerful and more annoying Dark Lord)? --boyd From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 22:42:37 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 22:42:37 -0000 Subject: Snape as an Occlumens In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106270 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Penny Brooks" wrote: > ... > > In OooP, we learn that Snape is an occlumens, and presumably a > legilimens, when he has to teach Harry occlumency. What I'm > wondering is: why hasn't Snape used this skill before? > ...edited... Asian_lovr2: Your Parents- Excuse me but weren't your parents (everyone's) skilled Legilimens? When you were preteen and early teen couldn't they pretty much look you in the eye and tell when you were lying. And when you reached your late teens and early adulthood, didn't you become sufficiently skilled at Occlumency to look them in the eye and lie. (again, referring to all of us and our parents, not just Penny) First point, you don't need any special skill to tell when someone is lying, especially if that someone does have some degree of conscience. So those times when Snape was looking Harry in the eye, and Harry was being deceptive, it's likely that Snape was using ordinary muggle 'lie detection'; facial expresions, posture, eye contact, body language, tone of voice, etc.... Snape's Legilimency skills- This is very much subject to interpretation by the reader. I believe Snape may have some basic limited intuitive skill as a Legilimens, but not to the degree that Dumbledore or Voldemort have. I can't really back that up with hard data, but that's my interpretation of he books. Legilimency- I have written a long essay that's been posted here a couple of times in the past on this subject. The most essential point is that we see Legilimency in two forms. One form is the skill of Legilimency as a natural talent. The other is the Legilimency Spell. The two are similar and certainly related, but are not necessarily the same thing. In Harry's Occlumency lesson Snape always used the 'Legilimens' spell; a spell which forces a cascade of random memories from to come from Harry's mind. Both Snape and Harry are aware that this is occurring, and both are able to see the memories. When Dumbledore or Voldemort 'read' Harry's mind, that obvious and unmistakable cascade of memories, and more important the 'victims' awarenss of the event, is not there. So, I have in the past and still regard the 'Legilmens' spell as a separate entity from the natural talent and skill of Legilimency. Conclusion- While Snape is without quesiton an extremely skilled Occlumens, I don't see any evidence to support the idea that he is any more than a very basic limited Legilimens. I do however think his nature, experience, and personality lend themselves well to normal 'truth detection'. Snape is very intimidating, and I suspect that few students or wizards are self-confident enough to look him in the eye and effectively lie. Side note: if Snape is sufficiently skilled at Occlumency to fool an extremely skilled wizard like Voldemort, how can we be sure he is not also fooling Dumbledore? Just a few thoughts. Steve/asian_lovr2 From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 22:42:56 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 22:42:56 -0000 Subject: FF: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106271 > HunterGreen: snip. > Sorry, I don't have the patience for fanfic (the very idea of it > makes my skin crawl to be honest...I just think the characters are > best left to the author), do you have a simplier answer? Or, you > others out there who have argued against Snape's teaching, what do > you think should happen to him? (and I'm talking in the reality of > the book, because I'm sure few of you would like to see Snape > disappear from the books). Alla: I know for sure what I want for Snape. Of course, I would not like for him to disappear from the books and I don't even want for him to die, although I would not mind such outcome. I want an apology from him to Harry worded something like "Potter, you are not your father and I was wrong for not realising that earlier" No, I don't want for him to hug and kiss Harry at the end, I just want an apology for undeserved emotional abuse he put him through. Oh, and I also want him to leave Hogwarts AT THE END of the series and never, ever come close to children again. Let him go to some potions research institute or something. I said it before - maybe he will find cure for werewolves and this way he will get his wanted glory. Now, that will be a positive outcome FOR MY TASTE. If JKR lets the character survive and change his attitudes at the end of the series. If Snape stays same abusive bully at the end, I would like for Harry to save his life at the end and for Snape to realise that he is in debt of Potter all over again. Now, I realise that would be a bit sadistic for dear Severus, but if he does not change his attitude towards Harry , that will be the best punishment for him , IMO. That is what I want for Snape. Does it answer your question? :) P.S. I strongly recommend for you to make an exception for the FF Dzeytoun mentioned. It is SO worth it. From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 14 22:44:15 2004 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 22:44:15 -0000 Subject: The Voldy To Do List Re: the Voldy CV (was "Eleven years") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106272 Carolyn writes: > Between 1970-1980 he does finally get to have some evil fun and > games, and then a spy reports to him half Trelawny's prophecy in > June/July 1980 'shortly before [Harry's] birth'. This clearly > bothers him a lot, and as Kneasy has recently pointed out, he is > so uncertain what to do that he inexplicably waits some 15 months > before trying to kill a baby, gets zapped for his trouble, and > disappears for another 11 years. Pip!Squeak writes: The 15 months wait is hardly his fault. Consider the 'to do' list he's got to get through. 1. Call in minions. Assign minion to do survey on all survivors of DE/Voldemort attacks. Determine subset of those who've survived exactly three. 2. Once category of 'defied three times' has been determined, assign minion to determine whether any pregnancies within group. Due date should be within the range of June to mid August, allowing for premature and late births. 3. Set up feasibility study on possibilities of slaughtering all pregnant women within subcategory. 4. On being told current DE manning levels cannot support mass attack, twiddle fingers until August 1. 5. August 1, assign minion to determine which pregnant women within subcategory gave birth to male between July 20th and July 31st. 6. On receiving information, note that all parental units of potential prophetic subject are experienced members of Order of the Phoenix. Assign intelligence unit to ascertain locations of parental units and potential prophetic subjects. 7. Inform intelligence unit that they don't have any (intelligence). Torture intelligence unit. Assign subversion unit to prepare report on known associates of parental units, with assessments of any relevant weaknesses. 8. Simultaneously assign research unit to prepare report on spells that might be used to hide parental units and potential prophetic subjects, with assessments of how such spells might be broken. 9. Personally prepare strategic analysis of which set of parental units are most likely to produce potential prophetic subject of equal power to self. 9a. Say 'b**ger it' and toss coin. 10. On receiving subversion unit's report select Peter Pettigrew as most likely subject. Decide subversion unit's proposed approach of 'hi, I'm the Dark Lord, just want you to do a little spying for me, by the way, you don't object to killing small babies do you?' is unlikely to be effective as initial approach. Torture subversion unit. Assign remaining subversion unit to prepare longer term but probably more effective method whereby Pettigrew is first only asked for minor and harmless information, slowly grooming him until slaughtering small babies is no longer a problem. 11. Twiddle fingers impatiently while waiting for longer term plan to take effect. Read research unit's report on concealment spells. 12. Prepare plan to counteract Fidelius Spell becoming concealment method, whilst continuing action against other possible concealment spells, frequent changes of location etc. Reveal slaughtering baby plan to Pettigrew-minion, and assign him mission of becoming Secret Keeper. Wring out robe wet spot where Pettigrew-minion has grovelled and begged for mercy. 13. Request report from Personnel on most effective baby- slaughterers amongst DE's. 14. Receive report that Pettigrew-minion has succeeded in mission of becoming Secret Keeper. Personnel conclude Pettigrew-minion is insufficiently groomed to be efficient at baby-slaughtering. Recent fatal personnel losses leave self as most effective combat unit against Potter parental units and Potter prophetic subject. 15. Undertake combat mission against Potter habitation unit. Successfully eliminate parental units. 15a. Discover baby is booby-trapped. 15b. B**ger. Pip!Squeak You have been summoned: Accio 2005, the first Harry Potter conference in the UK. http://www.accio.org.uk/ From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Jul 14 22:45:14 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 22:45:14 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius lure Severus into the Willow? (was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106273 > Kneasy: > Shh! Not so loud. There are posters still in denial over this one. > Megan: Is there a link between Snape and vampires? > JKR: Erm..I don't think so. > > This pretty well put the mockers on that one, because if Snape was vampire or part vampire then the answer would have been "Yes" or maybe something more enigmatic or "I can't tell you". Some still have hopes that his Patronus or Animagus form is a bat, which is just about possible from JKR's answer. But any hope of Snape being blackmailed because of Dracular tendencies is a non-starter.< Oh, not necessarily. You're forgetting ex-Vampire!Snape, which fits in perfectly with the blackmail scenario. According to ex-Vampire!Snape, Snape was a part-vampire who, by means of a switching spell, allowed Voldemort to acquire his vampire characteristics, receiving in exchange the last portion of Voldemort's humanity. So Snape could have had something to hide in his school days, and yet could out Lupin in PoA without fear of retaliation. Interested parties can find links to earlier discussions of vampire Snape in the HPFGU Mysteries FAQ http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/mysteries.html Pippin From clr1971 at alltel.net Wed Jul 14 22:59:20 2004 From: clr1971 at alltel.net (Christina in GA) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 18:59:20 -0400 Subject: Mirror of Erised / References: <1089371169.5923.40927.m22@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <01e101c469f6$329f79c0$c800000a@crouton> No: HPFGUIDX 106274 Iris: JKR herself suggests that the Mirror is maybe just a gate, >when she writes in PS/SS (chapter 12): "The Potters smiled >and waved at Harry and he stared hungrily back at them, his >hand pressed flat against the glass as though he was hoping >to fall right through it and reach them." Christina: I like this idea. Harry is seeing his heart's desire, his family, and they are seeing their heart's desire - Harry, a boy they never really got to know. It doesn't explain Ron's vision, though, of seeing himself as Head Boy with the Quidditch cup. Christina in GA Visit my Ebay Store! http://stores.ebay.com/pineywoodsbooks?refid=store Use codeword *lampshade* and get free shipping! From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Wed Jul 14 23:02:08 2004 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 23:02:08 -0000 Subject: William Gibson knew how to kill Voldemort! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106275 <<>> The Sergeant Majorette says AK or AK-47, that is the question. Somebody asked me the other day if I could take out five wizards with one handgun; considering that firearms are mechanical (no reason they shouldn't work in a magical setting, unlike electronics) and require no silly incantations, foolish wandwaving or dramatic cloak- billowing, I think I could do it, even though I am nobody's sharpshooter. Especially since Voldemort can't seem to just shut up and get on with it. Nooo, he's just *got* to be the road-company Hammer Film cliche, until it's a wonder some random passer-by doesn't pop a cap on him on general principles. What's the maximum effective range of the average magic wand? --JDR From drednort at alphalink.com.au Wed Jul 14 23:12:06 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:12:06 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Prefects and points In-Reply-To: References: <40F56FC5.24487.1F469B3@localhost> Message-ID: <40F64A66.29977.2D103A@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 106276 On 14 Jul 2004 at 13:19, niekycrins wrote: > Cathy Drolet wrote: > > > > > Even Fred and George know the only choice of Prefects is to hand > > out > > > punishments. They never say "Dock us house points? Big deal." > because > > > they know prefects can't dock house points. Hermione was > involved in > > > both situations quoted above. > > > In my OOTP p.597 Ernie says to Malfoy "you can't take points from > fellow prefects". So prefects can take points from other students, > not from other prefects. Members of the Inquisitorial Squad can dock > points from prefects. Could you please quote the lines around that, so people can find it (page numbers differ between different editions). If it's the conversation it sounds like, if your book says that we may have a discrepancy between editions - I just want to see if that has happened. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Wed Jul 14 23:39:04 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 23:39:04 -0000 Subject: The Voldy To Do List Re: the Voldy CV (was "Eleven years") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106277 > Pip!Squeak wrote: > The 15 months wait is hardly his fault. Consider the 'to do' list > he's got to get through. > > 1. Call in minions. Assign minion to do survey on all survivors of > DE/Voldemort attacks. Determine subset of those who've survived > exactly three. > > 2. Once category of 'defied three times' has been determined, assign > minion to determine whether any pregnancies within group. Due date > should be within the range of June to mid August, allowing for > premature and late births. > > 3. Set up feasibility study on possibilities of slaughtering all > pregnant women within subcategory. > > Pip!Squeak boyd: Or 1. Go about his business blissfully unaware of the prophecy for many moons, 2. Hear it from the Hogsmeade eavesdropper (whoever that is) after the births, 3. Go berserkly paranoid, forcing Pettigrew to tell the Potters' location (or alternatively just ask Peter if he's already a traitor) and sending Barty Jr. and Narcissa off to get the Longbottoms, and 4a. B*gger. Or 4b. Go complete some super-duper age-defying cream that just needs essence of baby Potter to be complete and then b*gger. We still don't know who the eavesdropper was, so there just might be a story there. And we still don't know whether there was some other reason LV wanted the Potters or the Longbottoms, because we don't know yet what happened in GH. I mean, did the prophecy drive his actions, or did the prophecy merely foretell his actions? Clearly, the answer is 42. --boyd Random thought: If the Potters and the Longbottoms both had secret-keepers, why not send each secret-keeper to the others' secret house? Then no one could ever find either! Or would that create a rift in the time-space continuum that would destroy the universe in a cataclism of, well, cataclismic proportions? From jmmears at comcast.net Wed Jul 14 23:37:52 2004 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 23:37:52 -0000 Subject: Harry's future... In-Reply-To: <20040714175515.65564.qmail@web25301.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106278 > texaschow wrote: > --- "cincimaelder" wrote: > - When Harry was teaching DA the Patronus charm in OoP, they > seemed to > > do better than Harry did on his first shot at it. Both Cho and > > Hermione where able to summon an animal, and all Harry was able to > > manage at first was some wisps vapor. > > > Then Cathy wrote > > > When Harry was learning the Patronus Charm, Lupin used a Boggart, > which turned into a Dementor in Harry's case. It had basically the > same affect as the real ones did. In the lessons Harry was teaching > to the DA, they were in a brightly lit classroom - no dementors to > suck the happiness out of them while they practiced their patronuses. > Producing a patronus with a dementor in the room is far more > difficult than if there is not one present. > > > Now UdderPD > > I agree with everything you say Cathy but I would like to add that I would think that both Cho and Hermione have far more and happier memories than Harry. As we know these are essential for the casting of a Patronus. I think that the main reason it took Harry a long time (relative to Hermione, Cho, etc) is that he was very conflicted about mastering the Patronus Charm. If you remember, he wanted to ward off the dementors but at the same time he very much wanted to hear his parents voices, and he struggled with this conflict right up until the moment he *had* to perform it successfully in order to save Sirius, Hermione and himself. This seems to be strong foreshadowing for his failure to master Occlumency, mainly because he really wants to see what's behind that door. Of course, this time his failure costs Sirius his life. Jo Serenadust, who hopes that Harry's learned his lesson this time From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 00:12:17 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 00:12:17 -0000 Subject: Bertha, Florence, Frank, Alice, Bella, Rudolphus... and Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106279 Neri originally wrote: I've just found the canon proof that Bellatrix is older than Sirius by 2 years. Carol responds: I've posted on this topic before at least twice--no doubt you skipped the thread or overlooked the information because my posts tend to be long. :-) Neri again: Oops, sorry. I knew I shouldn't have made such a fuss about it Carol: In any case, I agree with you except that I interpret the age difference as *three* years. Harry is just *barely* fifteen. He's just completed his fourth year and is about to enter his fifth. If Sirius was the same age when he last saw Bellatrix, it would have been at the end of her seventh year, when she finished school, at the time Sirius finished his fourth--not his fifth, when he would be sixteen or about to turn sixteen. (Harry doesn't reach that point until the *end* of OoP, about nine months after the scene you're referring to.) So Bellatrix would be seventeen or eighteen when she left school; Sirius barely fifteen or about to turn fifteen. That's a three-year difference, not two (for the other Marauders and Severus as well as Sirius). Neri: You're right, but I can never make these calculations in my head, so I naturally assume the characters (in this case Sirius) don't either, and so there's no point taking them on their word anyway. Two or three years are not a big difference in our case. Carol: Otherwise, I agree with you. I've always thought that Severus was the youngest member of the gang, "adopted" because of his precocity in casting hexes. It stands to reason that Rodolphus is a little older than Bellatrix, and Rabastan, who appears to be part of a threesome with his brother and future sister-in-law, is probably Bellatrix's age, though of course I'm guessing here. I also think that Lucius Malfoy, five years older than Severus and presumably a sixth year when Severus entered Hogwarts, was the original leader of this gang, just as he's the leader at the MoM (with Bellatrix an unofficial second in command, at least in her own view). It all fits with the idea that Severus was the youngest member of the "gang of Slytherins," all of whom had finished school by the time of the Pensieve incident, which explains why he was alone when James and Sirius confronted him at the end of their fifth year. Neri: In this case there is indeed a difference between three and two years. If it's three, then Bella wasn't at Hogwarts at all at the time of the underpants incident and couldn't have come to Severus' aid. BTW, the Lexicon seems very adamant that Bertha is only two years older than Snape and the Marauders. I don't know why they are so sure. I would think that "a few years older than me" (in Sirius words) is more likely to be three than two. But I'm not a native English speaker so I could be wrong. And while we are on this subject, the Lexicon gives Narcissa's time at Hogwarts as identical to that of Lucius (in the list of Slytherin students). Does someone have an idea where did they pull that from? Maybe from some chat or interview? My impression is that Narcissa is closer to the Marauders age. Carol: And it ties in, too, with Snape as Malfoy's "lap dog." When did Sirius see them together? At Hogwarts, when Severus was a child and Lucius was a teenager. What does "lap dog" mean? Little pet. The "baby" of the gang. Neri: It could be the way this nickname originated, but most of the time of the Marauders in Hogwarts, Lucius wasn't around, so and there wasn't any reason to keep it. I believe the "lapdog" relates to the special connection Snape created with Lucius after the war. See #105279 Carol: So I agree with you that the members of the gang were all older than Severus and that one of the older boys was more likely than he to be the one who kissed Florence and hexed Bertha. (Unless Sevvie was precocious in that respect, too, and we have no evidence to indicate that he was.) Seriously, I think Rodolphus is a good candidate, hexing Bertha to make sure she doesn't tell Bellatrix. Or maybe it was the unattached Rabastan. Certainly not the insufferably horrible Walden Macnair, if his adult self is any indication. Neri: I recently had an idea it might be Evan Rosier. To see why, find him in the Lexicon and check the origin of his name. Carol: But where does the idea of Florence as Death Eater come in? I've missed a lot of posts and evidently missed that one. Can you direct me to the right thread? Neri: Gaah, can't find this post now. The idea was something like: We don't see Florence around. There's an unaccounted dead DE. So it could be Florence. I personally still hope to find Florence alive. But if it was Rudolphus who kissed her and Bella got the word, the chances are slim ;-) Neri From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 00:26:31 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 00:26:31 -0000 Subject: Dobby redux - Freeing Elves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106280 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fiondavhar" wrote: > > ...edited... > > > > Aggie: > > > Malfoy's release of Dobby WAS unintentional but this does not seem > > to matter to house elves. In OotP when Hermione was knitting > > furiously all the hats and scarves to free the elves, they refused > > to clean Griffindor common room in case they accidently picked up > > the article of clothing and *unintentionally* freed themselves. > > If it works one way round surely it'll work the other. > > Bonny: > > Atually, they refuse to clean Gryffindor house because they find the > hats insulting, not because they are afraid of being freed. > > ...edited... > > Besides, Mrs. Weasley wanted a house-elf to do the laundry - it is > specifically noted in CoS - and if a house elf could be freed simply > by being handed a garment, they certainly would not be able to do > laundry. I believe there has to be intent. > > ...edited... > > Bonny: Asian_lovr2: I don't think intent is the key to freeing house-elves; authority is the key. Malfoy didn't intend to free Dobby but he did. Hermione intended to free the Hogwarts house-elves but she can't. Why? Because she doesn't have the authority. To say that Hermione can free house-elves is equivalent to saying that I can walk into a random office building and start firing people. But, of course, I can't. True I can say they are 'fired', but that doesn't make them 'fired'. Illustration- Draco wants Dobby to clean his socks (Draco's socks). Draco hands Dobby a pair of sock and says 'clean these'. Dobby is free, even though Draco has no intent to free Dobby, he has given his elf clothes. Draco throws his socks on the floor and says to Dobby, 'clean these'. Draco has with full intent given the elf socks, but the socks did not pass DIRECTLY from Master to servant. Consequently, Dobby is not freed. Conclusion- Elves touching clothes is irrelevant. (Moody gave Dobby Robes to clean, but Dobby wasn't fired; both contact with and intent to give.) The Master's intent is irrelevant. (Lucius freed Dobby unintentionally.) What is important is that clothes are passed directly from a person with authority to the elf. (His MASTER, Lucius, inadvertently but DIRECTLY passed a sock to Dobby thereby freeing him.) The grey area- What if Draco pointed at a pile of old clothes and said to Dobby (or any of his house-elves), 'you can have those'. There is a full unquestionable intent to give clothes to the elf. There is a full intent, both direct and implied, that the possession and ownership of the clothes is being transferred, but the clothes do not pass directly from the hand of the Master to the hand of the Servant. Now what? Best guess - we have a clear intent to 'give', literally give, clothes to an elf by someone with authority, but the outcome hinges on the elves actions. If the elf accepts the clothes, he is free, if he refuses, then he is not. In this scenerio, I operate under the assumption that an offer was made, not that an order was given. That leaves the elf with choice. Alternate Scenerio- If Draco pointed at pile of clothes and said, 'I order you to take those clothes for yourself', I think the elf would have been freed. But there is still a small element of grey in this particular version since the clothes don't come from the Master's hand; none the less, the Master's intent seems clear. Also, given that it is a direct order from someone with authority, I don't see how the elf can disobey. Hermione- How misguide is SHE! Would it killer to actually research house-elves and study them a little closer? Could she possibly take the time to ask them what they want and need? Sorry, Hermione but this was not your finest hour. Just a thought. Steve/asian_lovr2 From judy at judyshapiro.com Thu Jul 15 00:45:10 2004 From: judy at judyshapiro.com (Judy) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 00:45:10 -0000 Subject: Snape Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106281 Carol said, regarding when Snape became a teacher: > We don't know that Snape became a teacher after Harry's parents > deaths, which occurred on October 31. It could have been just before > their deaths, at the start of term on September 1.... > Surely a teacher didn't conveniently die just as Voldemort fell (and > Snape needed a job).... Actually, I've often suspected that Snape took over his position from someone killed, injured, or arrested in the aftermath of Voldemort's fall. We know that immediately after Voldemort lost his power, there were arrests of DEs, accompanied by battles -- sometimes to the death -- between DEs and aurors. Hogwarts could have lost several teachers at that time, either aurors who fell in battle, or DEs that, unknown to Dumbledore, had been working at Hogwarts and were either put in Azkaban or killed by Aurors. (We know that during GoF, Barty Crouch fooled Dumbledore for a full year. So, a DE teaching at Hogwarts is a definite possibility.) Casualties among Hogwarts faculty would explain why Snape became a Hogwarts' professor and Head of House at such a young age -- that and his natural brilliance, of course! Ok, and by the way, I really liked your post #105925, Carol! -- JudySerenity, posting here for the first time in ages From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Thu Jul 15 00:50:57 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 00:50:57 -0000 Subject: "M**blood" and handicap (was Re: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106282 > Del wrote: > >>Well, technically there are kind of right. What I mind though, is that they seem to consider that because they are handicapped, the > Muggles can't bring any worthwhile contribution to the world. They > completely dismiss all of the Muggles' accomplishments as just a way to cope with their handicap. [snip] > Seen in that light, it's more easily understandable why some > pure-bloods are against the Muggle-borns : because they bring a > *disability* into the WW. Both their parents are disabled, > handicapped, and it's just a lucky chance that they are not too. But who knows what it's going to do in the future ? Maybe their kids or grandkids will be disabled too ?<< > > HunterGreen: Sort of like remedial children in regular school, and the whole class having to go slow to teach two or three kids. Of course in the present of the school, this doesn't make much difference, but when you think of the sense of when the school was just starting, imagine the annoyance of Slytherin when he thought of having to pause to explain what basic magic things are. > > Not only that, but there's a second half of it, meaning their > constant ties to the muggle world. Meaning they are more likely to > marry a muggle, and more likely to be involved in muggle customs > (rather embarassing for the well-to-do wizards who detest muggles), and more likely to spend time with muggles. And then if they have kids, it gets even more complicated, Harry is a good example of this. Had Lily been a pure or mixed blood, when she died and Harry went to her family they would have been wizards. Harry, even though he's far from a muggle-born, represents the problem that can arise from muggle-borns. He knows *nothing* about the WW when he's told he's a wizard, and goes to school relatively clueless, causing Ron and Hermione to have to answer questions for him on many of the books. > > > Del also said: > >>In the light of that analogy, I think the problem with the word > "Mudblood" is not so much that it is an insult, but that it is > acknowledging a truth that nobody else wants to hear.<< > > HunterGreen: > Yes, I think you have a point there. Everyone is expected to quietly ignore the fact that muggleborns, are indeed muggleborns. Like I said in another post, I think Snape used the term in the pensieve scene not like the way that Malfoy uses it with Hermione (as just an insult, just for the sake of insulting her), but because he was specifically angry and insulted and frustrated with her. He was embarassed. If you look at her reaction, I think she was in some > understanding of that, which is what she reacted to. She wasn't mad that he used a "racial slur" against her, but because of his clear lack of gratitude for her standing up for him. > Valky: Great Posts to both of you! I entirely see this analogy as fitting. Particularly in the pensive scene. Imagine a young wizard famous for being above his peers in his knowledge needing aid from someone who couldn't possibly be as able as him, she has a *disability*. And it fits with Hagrids note in COS that Hermione is a very able witch so calling her a mudblood is an oxymoron. Entirely too abled : disabled...hmmmm. I reckon that this analogy is *so* backed up in canon we should probably HPLexicon it. Best to you all. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 00:50:38 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 00:50:38 -0000 Subject: Snape's redemptive possibilites (was re: Snape's Destiny et al) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106283 Melanie said: For Snape to really have been a DE means that we have to come to grips with the fact that he probably witnessed rape, torture, and murder and did nothing to stop it, at the very least. And if he did participate in the festivities (and let's be honest, you probably had to kill kittens and burn down orphanages to even be a DE candidate), chances are that when he was casting Unforgivables around, *he meant it.* Tiggersong responded: Okay. So, if Snape, while he was a DE, participated in rapes, murders, tortures and other Activities for the Well Rounded Death Eater, doesn't it stand to reason that he STILL IS? I mean, if he's spying for Dumbledore by pretending to still believe the whole DE party line, doesn't that mean that he needs to participate in the Campfire Activities? Don't you think that he will have had to do something Really Horrible to prove to LV that he's really still on their side? Redemption might be an ... ongoing need for our lovely Professor Snape. Carol responds: First, there's no indication that you have to "prove yourself" as a candidate for induction into the DEs--I'm guessing that Snape had Lucius' Malfoy's recommendation and credentials such as exceptional marks in Potions, DADA, and possibly in Charms and Transfiguration as well. There's no question that he was gifted with a wand (he knew all those hexes at age eleven and we know he can duel), and I'm pretty sure that Voldemort would have wanted to have this ambitious, cunning, and intelligent young man on his side rather than having him work for, say, the MoM. Second, we have no evidence that the initiation ceremony involved rape (or torture, given that these are children's books) or murder. It may have involved nothing more than having the Dark Mark burned into the new DE's arm and (probably) reciting an oath declaring lifelong loyalty. The fact that Snape's Dark Mark pains him when Voldemort's name is spoken is a strong indication that he has broken that oath. The existence of any other "festivites" is pure speculation. (The possibility, or even probablilty, that he witnessed other DEs torturing Muggles or Voldemort's opponents is not a "fact" and should not be labeled as such. The pain he feels on hearing the name Voldemort, on the other hand, *is* a fact and can be supported by canon.) As for what Snape was required to do, of course we don't know that, either, but Voldemort seems to use the talents of his DEs when he knows them rather than randomly assigning the same duties to everyone. Bellatrix and her little gang (Rodolphus, Rabastan, and Barty Jr.) seem to have been Cruciatus specialists. Mulciber specialized in the Imperius Curse and "forced countless people to do horrific things" (GoF Am. ed. 590). Travers, who helped murder the McKinnons, seems to have preferred Avada Kedavra. Macnair, Buckbeak's would-be executioner, specializes in dangerous creatures, both at the MoM and for Voldemort. ("You shall have better victims than that soon, Macnair. Lord Voldemort will provide," GoF Am. ed. 651. It's no coincidence that Macnair was sent as emissary to the giants.) It would make sense, given this tendency to use the DEs as their own inclinations and abilities indicate, that Voldemort would have used the young Snape for potion making. (There's more to potions than we've seen so far, and LV was still working on insuring his own immortality as well as using the potions as weapons. Veritaserum would have been useful to Voldemort as well.) Snape's repertoire of curses and hexes would have come in handy as well, particularly after he became a spy and wanted to hide his disloyalty without resorting to using the illegal and soul-corrupting Unforgiveable Curses, which he would not want the MoM to find on his wand should he come under suspicion again. I agree that the young Snape (pre-Hogwarts) probably stood by and did nothing when his fellow DEs used the Unforgiveable Curses. How could he avoid it if he was present? He could hardly say, "Don't, Lucius! You'll go to Azkaban!" (The murder of Regulus Black at the hands of his fellow DEs may have been the event that caused Snape to switch sides, or at least pushed him in that direction.) And without doubt, at least some of his potions were used to kill Voldemort's opponents, which would make him an accessory to murder. But I don't think Dumbledore would have hired him, however repentant he was, if he had actually murdered anyone himself or performed any of the Unforgiveable Curses. It would be too great a risk to his students, and particularly the future student Harry Potter. As for ongoing activities, the DE meetings stopped abruptly when Snape was 21 or 22 because Voldemort was vaporized. They didn't begin again until the end of GoF, when Snape (now about 36) was summoned to the graveyard--and almost certainly didn't go because he couldn't apparate from Hogwarts. At the end of GoF, he has some dangerous mission, possibly to contact the DEs (Malfoy?) and explain why he wasn't at the graveyard and reinstate himself in Voldemort's good graces. (Occlumency would be essential if he had to communicate with Voldemort directly.) Presumably he does attend DE meetings between GoF and OoP because he is reporting to the Order on the DE's plans, showing them the plans of a building (the MoM?) for one thing--but the DEs are not engaged in torturing and killing at this point. They're concentrating on the one thing that the newly resurrected Voldemort cares about at the moment--finding a way to get to the Prophecy. For the rest of the year, Snape is at Hogwarts, unable to attend any meetings, but perhaps reporting to Voldemort or Malfoy under the pretense of being a spy for the DE side. Now that the majority of the DEs are in Azkaban, Voldemort's new priority will almost certainly be getting them out. Assuming that Snape has somehow managed to regain Voldemort's confidence and is not under suspicion of possibly aiding the Order against the DEs in the MoM, maybe Voldemort will expect him to aid in the escape. But raping (in the HP books?) and killing? "Severus Snape is now no more a Death Eater than I am," as DD says (paraphrased) in the Pensieve scene in GoF. He isn't going to rape or torture anybody (sarcasm in the classroom aside), and if he kills anyone, it will be in battle in the last book. His role in the Order (as spy or informant or whatever) has to remain consistent with the safety of Dumbledore's students. Sarcasm is one thing; torture and murder are another. Severus Snape is extremely intelligent and IMO he's not about to do anything that would get him arrested or undermine Dumbledore's trust. Carol, who is trying to use canon and logic as the basis for her speculations and to distinguish between fact and probability From patientx3 at aol.com Thu Jul 15 01:14:14 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 01:14:14 -0000 Subject: FF: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106284 Alla wrote: >>I know for sure what I want for Snape. Of course, I would not like for him to disappear from the books and I don't even want for him to die, although I would not mind such outcome. I want an apology from him to Harry worded something like "Potter, you are not your father and I was wrong for not realising that earlier" No, I don't want for him to hug and kiss Harry at the end, I just want an apology for undeserved emotional abuse he put him through. Oh, and I also want him to leave Hogwarts AT THE END of the series and never, ever come close to children again. Let him go to some potions research institute or something. [snip] That is what I want for Snape. Does it answer your question? :)<< HunterGreen: Not really. I was more curious to those who think his teaching methods are horrible and those who think there might be some reason that Dumbledore is allowing it, what do you think should be done about it? Personally, I don't think anything *needs* to be done about it, because the situation is not spinning out of control; meaning that the students are learning, and no one is getting scarred by his insults (just my opinion only, I don't want this to spin into another Snape debate). For those who *disagree*, what should be done to him? I think you were answering what you would like to see happen to him by the end of the series, which is a slightly different question (I'm in the camp that he's going to be dead by the end of book seven, so he won't be a teacher anymore anyway). > P.S. I strongly recommend for you to make an exception for the FF > Dzeytoun mentioned. It is SO worth it. HunterGreen (at the risk of getting too OT): Its not really a "rule" I have, it just personal preference. I've been in other fandoms and I can't stand fanfic there either. I just can't stand the idea of someone else making personal descisions for the plot and the characters besides the author (the only time it doesn't bother me is with the movie adaptations, because they are using the storyline from the book as a guide, and I'm watching it as opposed to reading it...if someone made a book from the movie I probably wouldn't be able to read that either). Fanfic is just very, very strange to me. I understand why write it and why people want to read it, I just cannot stomach it myself. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 15 01:55:49 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 01:55:49 -0000 Subject: Lupin nom de chien?/Why does Snape trust DD? (was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106285 Kneasy: > Just to interject: > I have no direct evidence, just inferences, but I believe > > 1. The Ministry did not know that there was a werewolf student at the > school and that there is no "Remus Lupin" entered in the Werewolf Register. > > 2. "Remus Lupin" is not his real name, but a nom de guerre, nom de > plume, nom de chien or whatever you may wish to call it, assumed > when he entered Hogwarts. > > 3. This being so DD *had* to keep it quiet. > > 4. His true identity may be a key factor in the story. > > I've posted this before. I'll try and dig out the post number. SSSusan: I don't recall the post, but I sure do like it, in light of the fact that I think Lupin is a major candidate for HBP! Something about a mystery surrounding his true name makes it feel more likely.... Kneasy: > Quite possible. For a teacher of many years standing DD is not very > clever when it comes to dealing with the awkward squad. > And my original question remains - What made Snape trust DD after > Shrieking Shack I? SSSusan: This is probably *really* dumb, and I'll bet I can count on you to let me know if it is [hee]--but do we *know* how Lupin ended up not becoming Head Boy, or even whether he continued to be a Prefect? Is it possible that that position was taken *away* from Lupin by DD? If it were, is it possible that Snape could've seen that as support of him vs. Lupin? Ah...probably not. And it would only beg the question of why Sirius apparently wasn't punished. And how would James end up HB? He did stop the prank and "save" Severus, but would that be enough to earn him a promotion in DD's eyes? And it really wasn't Lupin's fault at all.... Well, looks like I've talked myself around in a circle here, unless somebody can help me out a bit. Dunno, Kneasy; I'm not sure you're going to get a satisfactory answer to your question. Maybe that puts it up there pretty high on the list of Must-Knows. Siriusly Snapey Susan From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 15 02:07:26 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 02:07:26 -0000 Subject: Still wondering why Snape trusts DD! (was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106286 Alla, replying to Kneasy's question: > Besides, I forgot the most important thing. You meant Snape > trusting Dumbledore when he came back to teach, right? > > Well, by that time, Snape is in Dumbledore debt already. He > vouched for him at the trial, he most likely saved him from > Azkaban. > > I would say it is not even a question of trust, it is a question > of debt. (don't know whether a life one, but definitely a debt) SSSusan: While I agree that Snape likely feels a huge debt to DD, I suspect the trust was there *already* by the point you're referring to. Remember, DD testifed that he had ALREADY come back to The Good Side. Presumably Snape would not have done so if he did not trust DD! In other words, if there was a problem w/ wanting to be with Voldy & the DEs, Snape still didn't have to come back to *DD*. But he did. And he did so in such a way that DD's trust in him appears absolute. I'm sorry, but I don't think the reference to a debt is enough to explain it. I think Kneasy's right--there has to be a REASON why Snape, who was surely profoundly disappointed & angry that DD didn't punish the Marauders after the prank, DID end up trusting DD enough to return to his fold. Siriusly Snapey Susan From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Thu Jul 15 02:13:56 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 02:13:56 -0000 Subject: FF: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106287 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "huntergreen_3" wrote: > > Alla wrote: > I want an apology from him to Harry worded something like "Potter, > you are not your father and I was wrong for not realising that > earlier" No, I don't want for him to hug and kiss Harry at the end... > Let him go to some potions research institute or something. > [snip] > That is what I want for Snape. Does it answer your question? :)<< > > HunterGreen: > Not really. I was more curious to those who think his teaching > methods are horrible and those who think there might be some reason that Dumbledore is allowing it, what do you think should be done about it? Personally, I don't think anything *needs* to be done about it, because the situation is not spinning out of control; meaning that the students are learning, and no one is getting scarred by his insults (just my opinion only, I don't want this to spin into another Snape debate). For those who *disagree*, what should be done to him? > Valky: Contrary to everything I may seem to believe in the vibe of my posts, *I, also,* want nothing to be done about it. He's horrible, no doubt, and I would't call him an exceptional teacher, he is just who he is and he knows his potions. What on earth could be done really? He's important to Dumbledore in the Order and in the School of Hogwarts. Harry is important also, but Snape is and has always been a least of his worries. Like a niggling itch that you can scratch occassionally but really it's just an annoyance. A nothing really. Snape is a trip underfoot of Harry, he has done a fair bit of damage so don't get me wrong I don't think he's totally harmless. But, Snape and Harry have an awful lot in common. Dumbledore sees the connection and has done from the start. I think his higher purpose is to protect and care for both of them, like they were his own children. He couldn't really oust one of them over their quibbling at each other, what loving person would? This reminds me of Snape's taunting of Sirius in OOtP about having to hide in DD's protection at Grimmauld Place coupled with his remark about those who wear their heart on their sleeves are vulnerable to LV. Snape seems to lash out at his own insecurites in others a lot, perhaps his taunting of Sirius is exactly the same thing. Perhaps he really can't be free himself, like Sirius, in some way. Without going into too many logical steps to this conclusion, I just have a gut feeling that Snape is left without much choice but to have Dumbledore keep him for his own protection. In which case I think were DD to punish Snape for what he's done to Harry the consequences would be worse. It would be far more cruel to Snape to punish him and discard him than it is to allow him and Harry to bicker, despite that Harry is quite innocent. From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Thu Jul 15 00:14:12 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 00:14:12 -0000 Subject: FF: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106288 > Alla wrote: > > I know for sure what I want for Snape. Of course, I would not like > for him to disappear from the books and I don't even want for him to > die, although I would not mind such outcome. > > I want an apology from him to Harry worded something like "Potter, > you are not your father and I was wrong for not realising that > earlier" No, I don't want for him to hug and kiss Harry at the end, I > just want an apology for undeserved emotional abuse he put him > through. > > Oh, and I also want him to leave Hogwarts AT THE END of the series > and never, ever come close to children again. boyd: I hope Snape stays the same pain-in-the-derrier that he is now. After all, he's tried to save Harry numerous times and demonstrated his loyalties to the OoP just as often, yet Harry suspects him of being ESE from the moment they meet. If the rest of the WW should be treating other races, mixed-bloods and muggles better, then shoudln't Harry try maybe a little to see past unimportant personality quirks, too? Hagrid's differences are easily as negative as Snape's; he's constantly subjecting the kids to unnecessary danger, yet we don't chide him, because he's so *nice*. Balderdash. They're both flawed, but both mean well (as far as we know). I think it's actually Harry who will be forced by circumstances in the remaining books to finally trust Snape, warts and all, almost as a final lesson in learning to forgive others for their faults and recognizing their true intentions. Sure, Snape is a git, but at least he doesn't constantly accuse Harry of being ESE. Self-centered, sure, not that he's all wrong there (like the first few chapters of OoP). And a pain in the class at times, too, if the constant conversations he, Ron and Hermione have in classes are any indication. Not to mention breaking into Snape's office to steal ingredients, and peeking at Snape's memories without consent; both of which are even worse crimes if Snape has lots to hide from LV, who has a window into Harry's mind in OoP. Of the two, I actually think Snape is holding up his end of the deal quite a bit better than Harry. Let Harry apologize, too, I say. Besides, then JKR could turn the tables on us one last time by having Snape betray the Order at the end, sacrificing DD to get back on good terms with his *true* master. ;) --boyd From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Wed Jul 14 19:46:20 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:46:20 -0000 Subject: The DA Club Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106289 It's interesting to hear the talk on Harry's future and one thing that struck me is about the DA club. I assumed that since Umbridge had gone and that DD would be able to hire a DADA teacher of his choice (providing there's someone willing to take the job! Note why Umbridge was there in the first place!) that the DA club would be disbanded. It wasn't needed anymore as the DADA teacher would be teaching the appropriate curriculum. It's bizarre that so many of you had the opposite idea!! Aggie From lysandrabellargus at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 14 20:00:33 2004 From: lysandrabellargus at yahoo.co.uk (Sandra) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:00:33 -0000 Subject: HBP is Riddle / Fountain (FoMB) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106290 Hi > >> first boyd wrote: >> Salazar now shares the body of Tom Riddle, one snake (the symbol of Slytherin) "in essence divided" (inhabited by two beings). > > > Then Sandra wrote: > > so I think could board this vessel - with my life vest on, and the > > shore, with book 6 and 7, in sight though ; ) > > > > Sandra > > boyd: > > Welcome aboard, Sandra! ... Either way, looks to be a fun ride! > > One thing bothers me, though, Sandra. Dumbledore's old--really old. > Some people have said he's like a human phoenix, it's been mentioned > that he worked with Flamel and may have used the PS/SS, and perhaps > it's true that he is in fact only part-human (part elf?). Heck, maybe > he's time-travelling after all. > > --boyd Yeah, it is fun riding this vessel! I can feel the wind blowing through my hair, but can not tell which way it is blowing yet, so I am checking that my life vest is fastened and remind myself that I am a good swimmer anyway. But please do not let your self get bothered by Dumbledore's age. IMO he is not really that old, because in CoS when Harry sees him `in the diary' he hardly recognises him, because he looks so much younger, and he was just a teacher, and this, we know is only 50y before CoS time. So I would think somebody who can visibly age like this in 50y is not unnaturally old. The elf connection though may be there - not in the half-elf sense. But DD is the only adult one, who really advocates for the elves (employs Dobby for a start) and also mentions that they have powerful magic. I was always wondering what the Fountain of Magical Brethren (FoMB) and they way it is used in the fight in OoP can tell us, about WW and the future of it. Surely wizards, witched and centaurs are not to be all destroyed in the end, to leave only goblins (without ears) and elves behind : O Sandra From poppytheelf at hotmail.com Thu Jul 15 02:32:09 2004 From: poppytheelf at hotmail.com (Phyllis) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 02:32:09 -0000 Subject: Convention Alley Proceedings Available July 30th! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106291 The Convention Alley Planning Committee is pleased to announce the availability of our conference proceedings for sale on July 30, 2004. The printed proceedings (a compilation of the papers presented at Convention Alley) will be available at a cost of $30.00 Canadian (which is currently equivalent to $22.75 American) plus applicable taxes and shipping fees. We are excited to be able to make the Convention Alley proceedings available to those unable to attend the conference, as well as to those attending the conference who would like to take home additional copies (one complimentary copy is included with each registration). If you would like to order a copy of the proceedings, please send an e-mail with your name and mailing address to: convention_alley @ yahoo.ca (without the spaces). Just a reminder that online registration via credit card for Convention Alley, Canada's first Harry Potter conference for grown-up fans of the series, will be closing July 20th. Additional tickets for Saturday's birthday banquet (featuring keynote speaker Steve Vander Ark) and Sunday's luncheon (featuring guest speaker Dr. Judith Robertson) are also available until July 20th. Information about registering and purchasing extra meal tickets may be found on the Convention Alley website (http://www.conventionalley.org/). ~Phyllis Morris 2004 Convention Alley Planning Committee and Programming Co-Chair From ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 20:04:04 2004 From: ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com (ohneill_2001) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:04:04 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss (is it a smoke screen?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106292 > Cory wrote : > > Having said that, let's not forget how this discussion began, oh- so- > > many posts ago. This debate began over a shipping discussion, when > > someone made the point that Ron "deserves" to end up with Hermione, > > because he's had such a hard life and he deserves to at least "get > > the girl." > > Del replies : > It was me. And I surely never said that Ron deserved Hermione, first > because nobody ever deserves anybody, and because even if that was > true, I don't think neither Ron nor Harry would deserve Hermione. > > What I said was that Ron was always second-best to Harry, and that I'd > be horribly upset if the girl he's fancied for years ended up with his > best friend. And that was just my *opinion*, not an argument in favour > of R/H, which I don't really support anyway. Now Cory: I apologize if I mis-characterized what you had said; I certainly did not intend to. My point was simply to bring the discussion back to where it had been when the "but Harry has had it worse!" point was initially made, because I think that argument makes a lot more sense in that context than it does otherwise. I agree with you that Ron has had a tough life, and that in general, it is wrong to trivialize his problems by comparing them to Harry's. However, in the context of the discussion at the time the point was made (i.e. in response to your point that it would be cruel for Harry to end up with Hermione after all Ron has been through), I think pointing out that Harry has also had to endure a lot emotionally does make some sense. --Cory From plinker at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 21:47:44 2004 From: plinker at yahoo.com (Plinker) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 21:47:44 -0000 Subject: Flaws in the foreshadowing of Ron's death... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106293 Several posts including the North Tower post concludes that Ron will die. I respectfully ask you to consider these points first. 1. In C.S. the real possibility of closing the school for the safety of the students, even if no student has died as of yet. 2. A lot of the foreshadowing of Ron seems to come from the chess match in S.S.. I think this has already played out. If you look, Ron took a physcial and emotional beating on the Quiddich team, then won in the end and also the chant "Weasly is our king" could also be applied from the chess match. On a different topic, in an earlier post, I said that I thought Harry would, in time, return to Hogwarts, the only home he ever loved and be the best DADA teacher in school history. From gertgal at aol.com Wed Jul 14 22:18:41 2004 From: gertgal at aol.com (Gielreta) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 22:18:41 -0000 Subject: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106294 > Del replies : > Yes, he acts as a typical 15-year-old. That's my problem. Harry >pretty much never acted as a typical boy before, in critical >situations. He was always more mature, more calm, more *adult*. >That's the way he was during the first 4 books, and then suddenly ? >kaboom ! He's just a 15-year-old. That's what I meant by "out of >character". Gielreta: I agree that there is a radical change in Harry. I'm just barely "grown-up" enough for the board ( :-) ), so I can really relate to how a 15-year-old-mind works. I think that Harry had always acted older than his age partially because he was a good kid, but partially because it was expected of him. Then, in his fourth year, he is ridiculed constantly, even more so than in his second year. He is also smack in the middle of hormone rages, which can make you want to act like you're five even if you're very mature. Then, he watches his friend get killed (which he could consider his fault), "meets" his parents, and narrowly escapes death. Everyone has a breaking point, and he has reached his. I can kind of relate. I was always mature,etc, but then my life was not so great for a while, and I really started acting like a typical teenager. I don't think that Harry's reaction is particularly unusual, but rather that JKR has done a good job of portraying the way an adolescent might finally break in a crisis. Really, do we want Harry to be mature forever? If he had never acted his age, could we relate to him as well as we do, or would he be more of a nice statue that we admire? Excuse the rambling... Gielreta From eeyore6771 at comcast.net Thu Jul 15 00:56:18 2004 From: eeyore6771 at comcast.net (Pat) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 00:56:18 -0000 Subject: Magic "late in life" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106295 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Annette Hamel" wrote: > I have been reading many posts speculating that Petunia is the one who > proves magical "late in life". > > I just started re-reading the series, and on page 3 (or so) of SS, it states > that Vernon and Petunia are "both muggles". I realize that many wizards are > "muggle-born", but I've never seen an instance in the books where someone > referred to outright as a "muggle" was magical in any way. > > My money's on Filch ;) Pat (holly lawrence/eeyore) I noticed the same thing when I recently reread the books--which I seem to keep doing. Each time I do see something I had missed or forgotten. I thought about it being Filch, but also wondered about Mrs. Figg-- she makes the comment that she's never been able to do anything. But the thought that occured to me the last time through one of the books, was that it could be Dudley. Perhaps Petunia had the same opportunity as Lily, but chose not to take it or wasn't very good. She seems way too resentful of Lily's talent for it to just be normal sibling rivalry. So....if Petunia really does have some magic powers (not developed, of course) that could mean that Dudley does also. Maybe they were able to keep him from doing anything if they started really young. Harry, after all, had been around magic from birth to 15 months. Yes, that's very young, but babies soak up everything around them. Dudley wouldn't have had that opportunity. > Pat From ellencs44 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 00:41:11 2004 From: ellencs44 at yahoo.com (ellencs44) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 00:41:11 -0000 Subject: Tonks Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106296 Just re-reading OOP and noticed something right near the beginning, that triggered a memory for me, of PS/SS, also near the beginning. I hadn't read this before in any of the posts, so sorry if it's already been noted. When Harry first meets Tonks, she's helping him pack up to go to the Order, and decides to change her hair to pink. She then tells the astonished Harry that she's a Metamorphmagus, one who can change her appearance at will. It made me remember the terrible haircut that Aunt Petunia gave Harry, and how his hair was back to normal the next morning. Is Harry also a Metamorphmagus? If he is, seems that could come in handy in 6 and 7. Ellen, hoping I haven't come up with an original observation made by three thousand before me. From submarimon15 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 01:56:06 2004 From: submarimon15 at yahoo.com (Mike) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 01:56:06 -0000 Subject: Death Eaters in the DoM Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106297 I first re-read the DE fight scene in the DoM ("Beyond the Veil", OotP) to find out what happened to each of them and mainly, who was the babyheaded DE? Well I figured from the pairings they broke off into and the fact that 5 rush into the Veil room at the end to clash with the Order members would allow me to work backwards to find this all out. It didn't and I discovered that based on the pairings they left in, and who is left at the end, it really raises some questions if it was purposely written like this by JKR. I'll piece together the entire thing for you from my notes that I made last night. The following 12 Death Eaters were in the Department of Mysteries: (1) Lucius Malfoy (2) Mulciber (3) Bellatrix Lestrange (4) Rodolphus Lestrange (5) Anotin Dolohov (6) Jugson (7) Crabbe (8) Rabastan (9) MacNair (10) Avery (11) Algernon (Augustus?) Rookwood (12) Nott After the shelves have been smashed to create a diversion, Harry grabs Hermione and runs forward. A hand grabs his shoulder, Hermione stuns him. Later we can assume this is Nott (12) because Malfoy says he is injured. The DE's then break by pairs, except for Rookwood who is left without one. (1 and 2 are together, as are 3 and 4 etc from the list provided above). 5 DE's make it to the end of the battle to trap the students in the room with the Veil. The people present here are: Lucius Malfoy (1), Bellatrix Lestrange (3), Anotin Dolohov (5), MacNair (9) and Algernon Rookwood (11). What makes these DE's special is that Harry knows something about them, or they have carried more of a plot point. Malfoy is always there, Bella is a complete psycho, Dolohov had a big part in the fight already as he wounded Hermione, MacNair was Buckbeak's would be executor and Rookwood had a seen in one of Harry's visions. I believe JKR chose these 5 DE's because like I just said, they have had the biggest parts so far in the series out of the original 12. Notice however, that a full pairing of two people never make it. Lucius' partner, Mulciber, is not present, so it is safe to assume that he was stunned or otherwise incapacitated. Bellatrix's partner, Rodolphus is similarly gone and so on. Harry, Hermione and Neville's battles go like this: Death Eater A and Death Eater B enter the room, A is stunned and B is the babyhead DE. We do not find out these peoples indentities. Death Eater C and Death Eater D enter after. C is silenced, and D is put into a full body bind. We later find out that C is Anotin Dolohov (5) after he wounds Hermione.He is also then put into a full body bind by Harry. This means that DE D was Jugson (6). They then meet up with Luna, Ron and Ginny. Luna tells Harry that 4 DE's chased them. These will be DE's E, F, G and H. We know that one had a planet blown up in his face... which leads me to believe that this DE may have infact died. I don't know about you, but having a solid object blown up in my face wouldn't be the safest thing I could imagine. This is the only DE that we learn has been incapacitated, though I believe there is one more that they dropped, but it is never mentioned. This leaves 3 DE's that never happened to persue either groups. These are DE's I, J and K. It is safe to assume that at least one of them is Rookwood (11). As for the DE's that chased Luna's group, it is safe to assume that Lucius Malfoy (1)'s duo and Bellatrix Lestrange (3)'s duo were the two that did this. I believe that had Lucius or Bellatrix been fighting Harry, we would have known it. This means that either Mulciber (2) or Rodolphus Lestrange (4) had a solid object blown up in their faces. Either way both of them had to go down since Lucius and Bellatrix both show up at the end without their partners. Now THIS is where it gets confusing (Yes, more confusing, it really helps if you write it down to follow along). SITUATION A: Death Eater's A and B are Crabbe (7) and Rabastan (8). The baby headed DE is Crabbe most likely. That DE in question is described as quite large and powerful. This suits a description of Crabbe Jr. This means that DE's J and K who appearently didn't fight anyone are MacNair (9) and Avery (10). Ok, it works out fine right? Not quite... MacNair is present in the final battle, but Avery is not. What happened to Avery? In this situation, my guess is that Avery fled. We know he's probably one of the biggest cowards from his performance in the Graveyard scene of GoF. SITUATION B: Death Eater's A and B are MacNair (9) and Avery (10). MacNair gets stunned, Avery turns into our pal with a baby's head. Problem: Avery is NOT described as being muscular. What of Crabbe and Rabastan? Well, they don't fight anyone, and are sent in the complete wrong direction. They never end up finding them, and aren't around for the final battle. SITUATION C.... I have yet to find one that fully works without someone 'magically disappearing' or fleeing. Some other variations included having Lucius and Mulciber being A and B, with Mulciber being our baby. POINTS TO PONDER: Dolohov and Jugson are both put into full body binds. Dolohov gets out of his, but Jugson doesn't? Who had a planet blown up in their face? I seriously think that this would result in the death or at the very least serious injury for whoever it was. (I'm hoping Rodolphus Lestrange personally). Who exactly is our baby head DE? Crabbe fits the description, and Avery fits someone who would vanish. (Situation A) Did Luna, Ron and Ginny incapacitate anymore DE's than just the one Luna mentions? (Planet in the face). It all really comes down to the final 5 DE's in the veil room. These are the most well known out of the 12, and it makes sense to have them around at the end. However, did JKR forget she split the people up into pairs and really didn't follow around? I *know* this is confusing... I've tried to make it as clear as possible, but I think it's rather important. I'd really like to know what happened to whoever got the planet in the face, what happened to the baby head DE and so on. If anyone can find an easier way to explain this, or a situation that actually works or just some incite, I'd appreciate hearing it. Mike, who realizes this is confusing and wishes that the Death Eater's didn't wear masks. From dontask2much at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 02:07:33 2004 From: dontask2much at yahoo.com (charme) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 22:07:33 -0400 Subject: Eyes, Hair, and Socks ? Message-ID: <035901c46a10$7e69f230$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> No: HPFGUIDX 106298 charme: I have what might be an unpopular, albeit wild, theory; hopefully you folks will bear with me whilst I explain :) I've seen numerous posts lately WRT eye color, hair color, and color in general in reference to the Potters and the Weasleys. I think (hope) everyone will agree the Weasleys all have red hair because it's hereditary in their family. The Malfoy parents have blonde hair and, of course, Draco has inherited that, too. JKR focuses a great deal on these descriptive terms in all her books, right? I started paging through PS/SS, and the Mirror of Erised caught my eye. (I love how JK used "Erised" instead of "Desire" - spelling words backwards is one of my favorite ways to develop passwords, but of course I digress) The portion of it most interesting to me was the description of a "little old man who looked as though he had Harry's knobby knees" and "other pairs of green eyes like his." Green eyes, I said to myself like the obsessed loon, I am...where have I seen other descriptions of green eyes? CoS has it: Dobby. "Bulging green eyes like tennis balls," it says. And in nearly every interaction with Dobby, his eye color is mentioned. Hm. All the other elves described, don't have the same eye color or are not mentioned. In the words of one of my favorite comics, "What does this MEAN?" I asked myself. Then there's socks. Socks, socks, and more socks. Harry socks, Dudley socks, Dobby socks Dumbledore socks. Giving, recieving, using, finding socks. So many socks I think I know where those "lost" ones from the laundry went. And what is the most important sock in CoS signify? Freedom. How very interesting, yes? Lily's family may have the touch of the elves in their blood. Weird and freaky, but why does JKR only point out Dobby, Harry, and Lily particularly having green eyes? And a mention of a little old man with knobby knees? Seems too coincidental to me.... charme, practicing thinking outside the box or just lost her marbles and needs a sock to put them in :) From aandj at labyrinth.net.au Thu Jul 15 01:20:02 2004 From: aandj at labyrinth.net.au (Jocelyn Grunow) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:20:02 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] "M**blood" and handicap (was Re: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106299 on 15/7/2004 1:46 AM, delwynmarch at delwynmarch at yahoo.com wrote: > I know I was always a bit surprised by the strength of the reaction > the word created. To me, that smelled of guilty conscience. I mean, > even if someone insulted my friend on the basis that he's Black or > Jew, I wouldn't react so strongly, even if they used an insulting > word. I'd say "Yes he's Black, or Jew, and so what ??". But *nobody* > reacts that way in the WW. And it makes sense : it's because they > *all* have guilty conscience. They *all* believe that indeed Muggles > are disabled, and thus inferior and useless, but they won't let anyone > dare saying it out loud. I think it's more like using 'nigger' or 'kike'. Not just the fact, but a judgement of inferiority as well. Muggle is a value-neutral word. Mudblood is an insult. Jocelyn From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 03:03:00 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 03:03:00 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106300 Alla: Carol, I decided to reply to your post, but I have no idea whether my reply will be to your liking or not. I am going to reply anyways, Sorry!I want to make a very small introduction before I hopefully go on topic. realise that you don't like "duel-like" responses. Well, I love them. I don't mind quiet discussion of the issues. Sometimes it is interesting, but I like "debate like " responses more. It helps me to sharpen my writing skills too. So, please, please, I am NOT attacking you and if anytime while reading my post you feel so, please smack me electronically. :o), BUT it is definitely my intention to attack your argument. Of course, I am not writing to convince you to change your position, but I am hoping that hypothetical "reader" will find my arguments more convincing than yours. > Carol responds: > First, Alla, I think it's wonderful to see you agreeing with Del and > defending the young Snape even though you like Sirius (and James?) > better. Great job, both of you, on this thread. Alla: Well, again I am sorry to dissapoint you, but I was NOT defending Snape. I lost any desire to defend him after him throwing THAT name at Lily. I find young Snape's views to be reprehensible and will not EVER defend him. I was bashing James and Sirius' actions, NOT defending Snape. Carol: > Now, at the risk of having "Stupefy!" and "Silencio!" hurled at me, > I'm going to propose that perhaps we're making more than we ought to > of "Mudblood" by calling it "racist." What it indicates is not really > quite equivalent to, say, the old U.S. Southern prejudice once held by > many whites against blacks. On one level, it's more like an awareness > of the presence or absence of royal blood; the purebloods see > themselves as a kind of natural aristocracy which shouldn't intermarry > with commoners (Muggleborns, and possibly half-bloods). It's not > really a matter of "race" even though it certainly involves "blood." > Alla: At the risk of sounding snippy, NO, I don't think that we are making more than we ought to out of "mudblood" Carol: > On another level, the prejudice isn't against "race" or even "blood"; > it's against Muggles, nonmagical people, whom the purebloods in > general and the Slytherins in particular have been taught to view as > inherently inferior, having to resort to "eckeltricity" because they > have no magical ability. It's more akin to the prejudice against > giants (and may have some basis in the treatment of witches and > wizards by Muggles during the Middle Ages, just as the prejudice > against giants has a basis in the giants' propensity to violence > against even their own kind). Even Ron, as far from a Slytherin as you > can find in these books, thinks Muggles are funny and laughs at the > idea of sliding down a snowy hill on pieces of wood (skis). Alla: Let's separate Muggles from Muggleborns, OK? Wizards' attitude towards Muggles is indeed patronising . What DE and future DE think about Muggleborns is a very different story, IMO. "It's about the most insulting thing he could think of," gasped Ron, coming back up. "Mudblood's a really foul name for someone who is Muggle-born ? you know, non-magic parents. There are some wizards ? like Malfoy's family who think they are better than everyone else because they're what people call pure-blood" "I mean, the rest of us know it does not make any difference at all. Look at Neville Longbottom - he is pure blood and he can hardly stand a cauldron the right way up." ... "It's a disgusting thing to call someone," said Ron, wiping his sweaty brow with a shaking hand. "Dirty blood, see. Common vlood. It's ridiculous. Most wizards these days are half-blood anyway. If we hadn't married Muggles we'd've died out." ?CoS, p.116, paperback, am.ed. So, Ron can laugh at Muggles, but it is quite clear what he thinks about THAT word and what is behind this word. By the way, I don't think he hates Muggles, he just finds them strange, because he does not know much about them. I think the prejudice IS against the blood. I will not pretend to be an expert on racism in the United States, because ...well, I am not, even though I am trying my best to learn as much as I can, but I know pretty well, as I wrote earlier, about the treatment of jews in the former Soviet Union and you know, sometimes I am wondering, whether JKR had some kind of similar prejudice in mind, even more than race related prejudice. Of course, JKR painted it as applicable to fictional reality of the "potterverse", but, you cannot imagine how real it sounds if I substitute "potterverse" for the RL and change the word "Mudblood" to some other disgusting name, which EVERY jew who grew up in that country heard at least once during his or her life (or maybe every day). I am not exaggerating. If person says that name, it means that that person holds a view that people of my nationality are inferiour to.... well, all other nationalities living in the Soviet Union, they are not allowed to enter good colleges, to get good jobs, well, the best they can do is to leave the country, because... they are jews (which my family eventually did). Actually, the Earth will be the better place without jews. Why, you ask me? because of who we are. Carol: snip. > Yes, James sees the word "Mudblood" as an insult to Lily ("mudblood" > equals "dirty blood"), but I don't think he sees it as "racist," any > more than he would regard "bit**" as "sexist," though he presumably > would have been incensed if Severus had used it against Lily. Granted, > James, unlike Severus, doesn't mind the fact that Lily is a > Muggleborn, but if she were a Muggle like her sister Petunia, would he > even be interested in her? It's the fact that she's a powerful witch > (as well as a pretty one) that intrigues him. And I can't imagine > Sirius marrying a Muggle, either, assuming that he'd had the > opportunity to live a normal life. And yet that prejudice against > Muggles (as opposed to Muggleborns) is apparent throughout the WW, and > no one regards "Muggle" as a mortal insult or a racist term. The word > "racist" doesn't even occur in the books. It's imported from our > perspective to their world. Alla: How do you know that? I think that James does find this word to be a racist one. I don't know whether he would marry a muggle, I want to hope that he and Sirius would, but I have no idea one way or another. How do you know that James was only intrigued by Lily because she is a powerful witch? Of course, we use the word "racism" , because it is the closest equivalent to what DE do to Muggleborns. Carol: snip. > Please don't send any viruses to my computer if you disagree with me! > I just think that "racist" is the wrong word in this context and > arouses emotions that really aren't quite appropriate to the > situation. Surely a perspective of intolerance should include > tolerance for values that differ from our own, even when we're > absolutely certain those values are wrong? It's not as if the > Slytherins were in favor of burning the Muggleborn students. It's only > when the prejudice reaches the level of Muggle baiting that we see in > GoF, suggesting something far more sinister while Voldemort was active > during VWI, or Tom Riddle's murderous loosing of the basilisk, that it > passes beyond regrettable and becomes reprehensible. Alla: Sorry, Carol, my perspective of intolerance does not include tolerance of the values, which when expressed out loud could eventually lead to hatred and killings. I gave you my RL examples of such "name-calling" and usually it implies that the person is already full of hatred to somebody who is different than he/she is. If we knew that Severus only said this word once in his life under the stress, I would not condemn him, but we KNOW that he acted on it by joining Voldemort, so yes, I 'd say that his actions are reprehensible. I am not saying that he could not change, I would be delighted to learn that he does not hold such views anymore, but for now I find what he did to be inexcusable. "Too late now, Potter! They'll be the first one to go, now the Dark Lord's back! Mudbloods and Muggle-lovers first! Well- second- Digory was the f---" - GoF, p.729, paperback. Forget for a second that it is Draco, who says that. That's where the name-calling leads. I don't think this should be tolerated at all. > > Carol, hoping for calm and rational responses (or none) :-) Alla, who does not know whether her responce was calm or rational enough for Carol's taste. :o) From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Thu Jul 15 03:09:11 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 03:09:11 -0000 Subject: Eyes, Hair, and Socks ? In-Reply-To: <035901c46a10$7e69f230$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106301 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "charme" wrote: > charme: > > I've seen numerous posts lately WRT eye color, hair color, and color in > general in reference to the Potters and the Weasleys. I think (hope) everyone will agree the Weasleys all have red hair because it's hereditary in their family. The Malfoy parents have blonde hair and, of course, Draco has inherited that, too. JKR focuses a great deal on these descriptive terms in all her books, right? I started paging through PS/SS, and the Mirror of Erised caught my eye. The portion of it most interesting to me was the description of a "little old man who looked as though he had Harry's knobby > knees" and "other pairs of green eyes like his." Green eyes, I said to myself like the obsessed loon, I am...where have I seen other descriptions of green eyes? CoS has it: Dobby. "Bulging green eyes like tennis balls," it says. And in nearly every interaction with Dobby, his eye color is mentioned. Hm. All the other elves described, don't have the same eye color or are not mentioned. In the words of one of my favorite comics, "What does this MEAN?" I asked myself. Then there's socks. Socks, socks, and more socks. Harry socks, Dudley socks, Dobby socks Dumbledore socks. Giving, recieving, using, finding socks. So many socks I think I know where those "lost" ones from the laundry went. And what is the most important sock in CoS signify? Freedom. How very interesting, yes? > > Lily's family may have the touch of the elves in their blood. Weird and freaky, but why does JKR only point out Dobby, Harry, and Lily particularly having green eyes? And a mention of a little old man with knobby knees? > Seems too coincidental to me.... > > charme, practicing thinking outside the box or just lost her marbles and needs a sock to put them in :) >> Brilliant Brilliant Brilliant! Charme I vaguely recall a reference in COS to Elf magic being superior to Wizard magic in some way. That puts an intersting spin on your theory, I think. Hmm its the first time I have heard it and I like it very much. Best to you from Valky From cincimaelder at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 20:50:03 2004 From: cincimaelder at yahoo.com (cincimaelder) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:50:03 -0000 Subject: Harry's Future... In-Reply-To: <071420041846.25927.40F57FA00006A7930000654722007347489C9C07049D0B@comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106302 cincimaelder: > > - When Harry was teaching DA the Patronus charm in OoP, they seemed to > > do better than Harry did on his first shot at it. Both Cho and > > Hermione where able to summon an animal, and all Harry was able to > > manage at first was some wisps vapor. Lissa: > > I don't think it was that Lupin was a bad teacher. I think it was >Hermione and Cho weren't trying to produce Patronuses around >Dementors >who were making them hear their mother's death. Cho and Hermione >seem >like they're pretty well adjusted girls with lots of strong, happy >memories. Plus, as Geo pointed out, they're extremely bright. But >Harrry was a.) younger (a 3rd year as opposed to a 5th year), and b.) >trying to create his Patronus with a dementor nearby (or a boggart dementor, but same difference in this case). The reason this bothers me though, is that everyone was so impressed that Harry could produce a corporeal Patronus. "Impressive," said Madam Bones, staring down at him, "a true Patronus at that age...very impressive indeed." OoP US version, pg 141. So I guess it just seemed to me to be very unusual that a student could do it. I had the impression that Harry was VERY exceptional for producing a corporeal patronus at 15, where 17 doesn't seem that much older and certainly not 16. Also, when he did his DADA O.W.L, again the tester seemed very impressed (and gave him bonus points) for producing a corporeal Patronus and he did it without a dementor around that time. I guess I misinterpreted JKs intention on Harry's skill in this particular area. From shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 03:16:44 2004 From: shrtbusryder2002 at yahoo.com (Jason) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 03:16:44 -0000 Subject: Polyjuiced Hermione Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106303 Hey everyone! I was rererererereading CoS with a hilighter pen looking for those all important clues JKR says are in there and I noticed something odd. Not really something I believe is a clue but, something that just doesnt make much sense plot wise. Why does JKR go through the extra words and pages to turn Hermione into a cat? The boys didnt find out any information or get into any trouble that would have benefited Hermione not being a part of. Nothing comes of her stint in the hospital wing. Why not let her take part in the investigation? Is this just showing us that polyjuice is only for humans? To perhaps negate the question in later books of "why couldnt they just polyjuice themselves rather than become animagi?" Hmmmm. Perhaps I just worked out the answer myself. But does anyone else find it odd or have any other views on the subject? Jason From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 03:20:59 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 03:20:59 -0000 Subject: Ron's "poor me" syndrome. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106304 snip. Alla wrote previously: > > Is it a mortal sin for Ron to complain about his poorness? Surely > > not, BUT it does get very annoying. I am expecting Ron to put things > > in perspective by now. > > Del replied : > I don't find that annoying at all. I'm even surprised at how little > Ron complains. I had friends who complained 10 times more, even though > they were nowhere as poor as Ron. > And what perspective are you talking about exactly ? Ron IS poor, no > perspective is going to change that. snip.> > Huh, sorry for the long post and the psycho-babble, but hey ! You were > looking for ir ;-) > Alla: Del? The only reason I brought up those quotes was your statement that Ron does not have a "poor me" syndrome. I wanted to show that he does. By itself, every one of his complaints is normal, together it gets a bit much for me. The fact that he complains a lot does not cause me to hate him. I understand that he is a teenage boy, but I expect him to grew out of this and I think he did in OoP . Which perspective I was talking about? That material things in life are important , but not as important as having your loved ones around you. From McGregorMax at ec.rr.com Thu Jul 15 03:27:53 2004 From: McGregorMax at ec.rr.com (mcmaxslb) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 03:27:53 -0000 Subject: The DA Club In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106305 ---Aggie wrote: >> I assumed that since Umbridge had gone and that DD would be able to hire a DADA teacher of his choice...that the DA club would be disbanded. It wasn't needed anymore... Not really. The DA is a little like the dueling club in CoS and now it can meet openly. Mind you, one of the appeals of the DA was that it was a secret. I think Dumbledore will encourage the meetings now that the war is on in earnest. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 03:25:44 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 03:25:44 -0000 Subject: Harry uses Hermione's wand to kill Volemort? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106306 I (Carol) wrote: P.S. As to the core of Hermione's wand, there are of course only three possibilities. Since Ron's is a unicorn hair and Harry's is a Phoenix feather, I think it's a safe bet that Hermione's is a dragon's heartstring. Adan responded: I remember the three things being thrown out as the possibilities as well, but in GoF isn't Fleur Delacour's wand core her (grandmother's) veela hair? So it was obviously a wand made specifically for her, but that might mean there are many possibilities. My question is wondering whether the wand core, of a wand chosen specifically for the witch/wizard, shows any kind of compatibility with other wizards... man, that's just not clear. What I mean is, would someone with a dragon heartstring (like Krum) be better suited to someone else with a dragon heartstring (like the presupposed Hermione)? Or would it be like in magnets, and repel? Just a wild hair... Carol responds: Okay, I guess I'd better quote the bit of canon I had in mind when I wrote that P.S.: "Every Ollivander wand has a core of a powerful magical substance, Mr. Potter. We use unicorn hairs, phoenix tail feathers, and the heartstrings of dragons. No two Ollivander wands are the same, just as not two unicorns, dragons, or phoenixes are quite the same. an of course, you will never get such good results with another wizard's wand" (SS Am. ed. 83-84). Clearly Ollivander doesn't think it's necessary to deviate from his three standard substances since he can get the variety he wants simply by using two different animals (not to mention varying the wood and the length of the wand). Granted, Fleur's wand uses a Veela hair (from her own grandmother), but Ollivander doesn't use Veela hair because it makes the wand "temperamental" (GoF Am. ed. 308). (Even Viktor Krum's wand, a "Gregorovitch creation" made of hornbeam (a hardwood tree of the birch family), has a dragon heartstring core, suggesting that it's pretty standard). At any rate, unless Hermione did not go to France or Bulgaria to get her wand. She must have bought it in Diagon Alley, and unless she went to some other wand shop (Hagrid's statement that Ollivander's wand shop is "the only" place to buy wands may be literally true and may mean that it's the best place--either way, if she had any guidance at all, she would have ended up at Ollivander's). So I admit I was assuming that she bought the wand at Ollivander's, but if she did, as seems likely, there really are only three possibilities. Which returns me to my original light-hearted supposition--hers is probably different from those of the two boys because her personality and abilities are so different from theirs. Three cores for three protagonists. It makes sense to me. As to your question, Adan, I really don't know the answer beyond the Priori Incantatem effect of brother wands, which I don't think we'll encounter except with regard to the Fawkes' feather cores of Voldemort's and Harry's wands. The question for me is, what are the implications of the particular wand cores. Of course, the Phoenix is associated with immortality, which explains why it suits Voldemort, and the Phoenix song is apparently associated with purity of heart, so it suits Harry (more or less--I won't go into character flaws or the possible corrupting effects of a failed Crucio here). He's the hero of the story and Fawkes the Phoenix is allied with both him and Dumbledore--he's been healed twice with Phoenix tears, once rather superfluously as he wasn't near death. I don't know of any other students with Phoenix feather wands. I would guess that they're extremely rare, even if more than one Phoenix exists. We know that Fawkes gave only two feathers; that's all we know on the matter. But it does seem to reduce the likelihood that Hermione's wand also has a Phoenix feather core. As for Ron's unicorn tail hair core, there may be some association between unicorn tail hairs and innocence. I'm thinking, of course, of the usual associations of unicorns with innocent young girls--virgins, in medieval lore--and of poor Cedric, who was "good and kind and brave" and whose wand had a unicorn tail hair. But despite Firenze's words, "Always the innocent are the first to die," I don't think we need to expect that all the students with unicorn tail hair wand cores--roughly a third to a half of the Hogwarts student body--is doomed to die, or that we need to worry about Ron for that reason. Interestingly, Charlie's original wand also had a unicorn hair core. Does that mean he's definitely a good guy, "innocent" in comparison with the twins, at any rate? As for dragon heartstrings, you'd think that would be the core of choice for our courageous Gryffindors (except Charlie, who tames dragons and Hagrid-like, probably doesn't want one to give its life for his wand). Seriously, I would think that dragons would be associated with either courage or cunning, but not being up on that branch of mythology, I'd be interested in hearing from the experts. If I'm right and Hermione's wand has a dragon heartstring core, what are the implications? (And wouldn't those wands be rather rarer than unicorn tail hair cores because the animal has to die and can only contribute one heartstring? I can't see Mr. Ollivander killing dragons himself at his age, even if he does pull out unicorn tail hairs. He'd have to get them from a distributor of dragon parts.) Oh, the heartlessness of the WW. Carol, trying not to think of the old Disney movie, "Pete's Dragon" From McGregorMax at ec.rr.com Thu Jul 15 03:37:30 2004 From: McGregorMax at ec.rr.com (mcmaxslb) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 03:37:30 -0000 Subject: Polyjuiced Hermione In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106307 ---Jason wrote: > Why does JKR go through the extra words and pages to turn Hermione > into a cat?... Is this just showing us that polyjuice is only for humans? I felt that JKR did it to add humor. It was funny that she turned into a cat! Plus it showed that Hermione is not infallible, that she can make mistakes. McMax From Batchevra at aol.com Thu Jul 15 04:00:28 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 00:00:28 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] In defense of James (yes, the berk). Was: Cockney rhyming... Message-ID: <8b.fad83ea.2e275b5c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106308 In a message dated 7/14/04 1:58:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nkafkafi at yahoo.com writes: >Neri: Since nobody seems to step forward, I'll take the defense of James (can't stand a good character maligned). My line of defense will be simple. I'm not going to belittle anything that happened in Snape's pensieve memory. I'm going to claim that Pensieve!James is most certainly James at his worst. This is the worst thing he ever done in his life, and we judge his character solely by this moment. How do I prove that this is James' worst moment? Easily. We have canon that Snape was the person James hated the most (well, he probably hated Voldemort even more, but that's different. Voldy was his mortal enemy). We know that this was Snape's worst memory. Ergo, this is the worst thing that James had ever done in his life. Think for a moment about the worst thing you ever done in your life. Put it in writing as objectively and detailed as you can and send to my e-mail. Then tell me if it's fair that I'll judge your character solely by this incident. This is what we are doing to James. If you want to contrast James fairly with (say) Snape, you should NOT compare Pensieve!James with Pensieve!Snape. You should compare Pensieve!James with the worst thing that Snape ever done in his life. How about Snape in PoA trying to hand an innocent man to be executed because he has a 20 yrs old grudge against him, and won't even listen for one minute to this man defending himself? And as several members recently posted, Snape was a DE, and it seems highly improbable that he managed not to take part in any of the favorite sport in that club. After all, Snape placed three "worst memories" in the Pensieve, not one. Would it be far-reaching to speculate that one of them contains the worst thing he'd ever done during his DE career? And suppose Harry would have picked this memory instead of the James' memory. Would it be fair to judge Snape's character solely by this moment? The Pensieve may be objective, but JKR is highly subjective in her choice of what to show in it. As in the case of Ron and Ginny, whom I've just defended here, JKR uses Harry's point-of-view as a powerful but very narrow-beam spotlight. She points this spotlight to what she wants us to see, while living all the rest in the dark. Even when we know what must be in the dark parts, we tend to disregard it, or at least give it less weight. At this moment in the plot, JKR wants (for good reasons, of course) to trash James. So she shows Harry and us, in perfect detail, the worst thing he ever done in his life. This incident is the only direct broadcast we ever got from James' life. Well, there was that "I'll delay him, take Harry and run!" but this low-quality audio (some members are not even sure it's James) is extremely short in comparison with the Pensieve scene, and all the rest we know about James is second-hand. In the past JKR had portrayed him as a saint. Now she portrays him as a heartless bully and a berk. We shouldn't have bought it then, and we should not buy it now. Your'onor, the defense pleads "not guilty" on the ground of biased evidence. Neri [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From AllieS426 at aol.com Thu Jul 15 03:58:29 2004 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 03:58:29 -0000 Subject: Harry uses Hermione's wand to kill Volemort? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106309 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > (And wouldn't those wands be rather rarer than > unicorn tail hair cores because the animal has to die and can only > contribute one heartstring? I can't see Mr. Ollivander killing dragons himself at his age, even if he does pull out unicorn tail hairs. He'd have to get them from a distributor of dragon parts.) > > Oh, the heartlessness of the WW. > > Carol, trying not to think of the old Disney movie, "Pete's Dragon" I prefer to think of "dragon heartstrings" as something peripheral, not literally attached to the heart. As in, "Don't hold onto the Dragon's heartstrings too tightly or they can snap off." :) And I imagine that Hagrid's unicorns regularly shed their tail hairs in the forest and Hagrid collects them for Ollivander. Or trades them in for fire whiskey. Allie From Batchevra at aol.com Thu Jul 15 04:06:58 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 00:06:58 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's future... Message-ID: <12f.464aac5a.2e275ce2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106310 In a message dated 7/14/04 11:16:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cincimaelder at yahoo.com writes: >Also, there are 2 things that bother me and I would like to know if anyone has any thoughts... - Should Ron really be a Prefect? I can see why Hermione was chosen, but really not sure why Ron deserved it. - When Harry was teaching DA the Patronus charm in OoP, they seemed to do better than Harry did on his first shot at it. Both Cho and Hermione where able to summon an animal, and all Harry was able to manage at first was some wisps vapor.< In answer to your second question, when Lupin was teaching Harry the Patronus, he used a boggart to simulate a Dementor. So when Harry was doing it he was two years younger and he was fighting a simulated Dementor. The DA class didn't have a Dementor in the room with them, so they were able to produce something without the added assault to their minds. Hope that answers your question. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From AllieS426 at aol.com Thu Jul 15 04:15:43 2004 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 04:15:43 -0000 Subject: Dobby redux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106311 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aggiepaddy" wrote: > > > > What was the whole point of opening the Chamber? > > > I have many times wondered the same thing exactly! And not only that - but how did Lucius Malfoy KNOW what would happen if the diary made its way to Hogwarts? Dobby called it a "plot" (forgive me if that's movie contamination) which implies more than one person, planning, foresight, etc. I can't really imagine a heart to heart scene between LV and Malfoy. ("Lucius, my most trusted of companions, take my diary. If anything should ever happen to me, send it to Hogwarts and I will be with you again.") I also can't imagine Lucius writing in the diary to find out how to use it to his benefit. I can imagine a lot of things, but I have real trouble with CoS. Maybe it will become clearer once we have books 6 and 7. Allie From enigma_only at hotmail.com Thu Jul 15 04:21:07 2004 From: enigma_only at hotmail.com (fiondavhar) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 04:21:07 -0000 Subject: Dobby redux (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106312 > Aggie now: > So does that mean that you don't believe that Lucius freed Dobby > then? That it WAS Harry that freed him somehow. It does follow that > it appears Dobby has 'adopted' Harry as a master but if that is the > case how was he freed from Lucius? Bonny again: It is a far-fetched and romantic view that has been argued to the the death, but I like to think that somehow the authority that Lucuis had over Dobby was only superficial, and that Harry's is somehow stronger to the elf - ie for whatever reason he feels his loyalty is more to Harry. I like to think that Dobby is somehow tied in with the Potters! Though Dobby says he is bound to serve one family forever unless released, he never says that he or his family HAS served only one family. There is that house-elf re-location office - and Dobby dedicates himself to Harry more than what is likely "acceptable" for an elf who serves another master. He even takes a direct order from Harry in OotP, and based on the lack of success with Hermiones hats, we can assume that students don't have direct authority over elves. It is possible that Dobby is simply very dedicated to Harry because he freed him, but the matter has been left so open for development that I seriously wonder - and it's so fun to speculate! > > Thanks for adding to my points on this. > > I realise that TR/LV posed a danger to Harry I was just wondering if > there was another reason for Dobby's insistence. Bonny again: Of course, I'm sorry if I came of as brusque or sarcastic or anything, I was just over-stating the obvious. It is interesting to think there might be another reason - any theories? I'd love to hear them! Bonny From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 04:31:22 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 04:31:22 -0000 Subject: Ron as prefect? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106313 Del wrote: I just want to say that I am a tiny bit offended at the way you dismiss Ron. His grades might be ordinary, but then so are the grades of all others, except Hermione, and Harry in DADA, as far as we know. So the other boys would not have been better choices on that point. No leadership qualities ? I beg to differ. Right from the first book when Ron directs Harry and Hermione on the giant chess set, we see that he *can* lead if he has a *reason* to. But the thing is, most of the time, he doesn't have any reason to lead. As the youngest of the Weasley brothers, he's used to older brothers deciding for him. And as Harry and Hermione's friend, both leaders too, he's quite happy to follow them in a life of fun and adventures. Everybody can't be a leader at the same time. Ron's leadership abilities (courage, initiative, strategy, and so on) are latent, but they are most definitely present in him. And we've never seen Seamus or Dean lead anything or anyone either. Carol responds: Also there's the simple fact that Ron is Harry's best friend, and both Dumbledore and McGonagall (who surely had a say in the matter) would want the Prefect for that year to be loyal to Harry. Seamus comes back for the fifth year doubting Harry after reading the Daily Prophet's lies. Ron, for all his faults, would never doubt anything Harry says concerning Voldemort. And despite an occasional tiff with Harry (who really doesn't handle confrontation tactfully), he's really devoted to Harry. And, as the Second Task in GoF shows, the devotion is mutual. I think there were secondary motives--to help Ron grow and develop the latent skills Del mentions and maybe to prevent jealousy of Harry and give Ron something to be proud of that would spur him to further achievements--but primarily I think that, since Harry was too burdened with other obligations to take on the responsibilities of a prefect, it was essential that someone close to him do so. Ron is the obvious--in fact the only--possibility here. As for Neville--not prefect material because he has so little self-confidence and no authority whatever--can't even remember the passwords. But he'll have his day. Too bad there's so much emphasis on Quidditch and so little on academics. He could win a medal in herbology. For now, there's a new wand and a new boggart. (I think he'll get over his fear of Professor Snape and even come to regard it as silly given the real terrors that are in store in the next few books. I hope.) Carol, imagining Draco with a Professor "Moody" boggart and what would happen if he "riddikulused" him From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 04:46:39 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 04:46:39 -0000 Subject: SHHermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106314 Jim Ferer wrote: Could you point out how she [Hermione] shows her romantic attachment to Ron? Carol responds: Okay, I'm not a shipper, but one quote says it all: "Next time there's a ball, ask me before someone else does, and not as a last resort!" (GoF Am. ed. 432). If that's not showing her romantic attachment to Ron (and her frustration with him for not recognizing his own attraction to her), I'm a mandrake. Well, okay, that's pushing it a bit far. But to me, that one remark says all we need to know about Hermione's feelings for Ron. Carol From jhnbwmn at hotmail.com Thu Jul 15 05:06:39 2004 From: jhnbwmn at hotmail.com (johnbowman19) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 05:06:39 -0000 Subject: The DA Club In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106315 Well thats the thing abou the DA. if you take the idea that there are 1000 students at Hogwarts, then there are an average of 142 kids per class. And i was the thinking the original DA had only 28 members, so why couldn't each DA member take a specific grade and teach them DADA after classes? It could still be a club, and it would seriously help students in the war against Voldemort. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 05:09:15 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 05:09:15 -0000 Subject: The Virtues of Hufflepuff House and Cedric Diggory (Was: Snape and . . .courage) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106316 Rebecca wrote: The Gryffindor-centric thing sort of gets on my nerves a bit at times (and I think it mostly comes from JKR, because its clearly the house she thinks is best). Honestly, what I've wondered about, is if someone were more loyal than they were courageous, or (to put it another way) valued loyalty more than intelligence, despite being very bright, would they be placed into Hufflepuff? After GoF, I was thinking yes, but after the sorting hat song in OotP, it appeared that Hufflepuff was only the "leftover" house (which I very much hope isn't the case, because being hardworking, loyal, and valuing fair play are IMO superior traits than being ambitious or courageous or clever). Carol responds: The quintessential Hogwarts student--intelligent, brave, loyal, and possibly even ambitious in the best sense--was surely Cedric Diggory, a Hufflepuff. He was even a Quidditch captain and a seeker, and though I rather like Wood, Cedric was a much better sport and a thorough gentleman. And handsome without being egotistical or arrogant. Anything but a "leftover" student. I think the Sorting Hat was making a point about Helga Hufflepuff and her values, her willingness to teach everything she knew to any wizard child willing to learn, than about Hufflepuff as a House in the passage you're referring to. The essence of what Hufflepuff itself can be, and perhaps is intended to be, summed up in Cedric Diggory. What a tragedy that he died at seventeen. I only hope he's not forgotten in the coming books. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 06:21:55 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 06:21:55 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius lure Severus into the Willow? (was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106317 Kneasy wrote: But it wasn't [i.e., the backlash wasn't "epic"], for one reason - DD hushed it up. And this leads on to the most unbelievable bit of all - Snape kept his mouth shut. He told no-one what had happened. Given what we know about Snape, is that credible? He has information that would get Lupin, Sirius, James, Peter and DD into really serious hot water and he'd probably end up looking like a hero to concerned parents - and he does nothing. How did DD 'persuade' him to co-operate? Threaten to expel him? Wouldn't work - it would give Snape even more incentive to pop round to the Daily Prophet offices to offer an exclusive - "Cover-up at Hogwarts! DD expels pupil whose sole concern was the safety of fellow students! Board of Govenors to investigate!" Neri responded: You forget one thing. James did run after Severus and saved his life. Snape belittles this in the Shack (in PoA), but we know that as late as SS/PS Snape had still considered himself in debt to James. So the shaken 16 yrs old Severus, who had just saw Death in the form of a full-blown werewolf and was dragged back by James, is likely to see it this way even more. Or perhaps it was DD who gently but surely pointed this to him, in the best of DD's style. Carol adds: I think Neri is on the right track here, but I would add that Severus' fear of humiliation is probably the crucial factor. I think Dumbledore probably pointed out to Severus that if he revealed what he knew, not only would the whole school (and probably the WW) know that he had been tricked by Sirius Black, they would know that his life had been saved by the even-more-hated James Potter, to whom he now owed a life debt. So whatever Sirius's punishment would have been, probably expulsion, James would have been viewed as a hero and he, Severus, as a helpless victim. Tempted as he must have been to get revenge by revealing Sirius' perfidy and Lupin's condition, I think the fear of having the wizarding world know that he was dragged to safety by the "heroic" James kept him silent for twenty long years (especially since he also believed, perhaps rightly, that James had been in on the prank, too, but got cold feet and did not deserve to be viewed as a hero). Nevertheless, I think Snape is still trying to pay off that life debt (which he didn't succeed in doing in SS/PS because of Hermione's interference), as well as trying to keep Harry from endangering his life needlessly because he's the key to destroying Voldemort. Snape is not trying to keep Harry out of Hogsmeade to be nasty, for example. He's trying to prevent him from being murdered by his own old enemy, Sirius Black, whom he has every reason to believe is capable of murder. His efforts to prevent Harry from going to the MoM are even stronger evidence that his desire to save Harry's life (and end the life debt) did not end with SS/PS. (Ironically, in OoP, he tries to prevent Sirius from going to the MoM as well, advice that would have saved Sirius' life had he heeded it but would have earned Snape neither recognition nor gratitude.) Of course Snape's primary motivation in protecting Harry in all these instances is the war against Voldemort, but I think his resentment of James, and his desire to finally triumph over him, is still smoldering, too. IMO, he'll never be at peace until he personally and unequivocably saves Harry's life and receives the recognition that his silence denied to James. That, I think, is why he was so disappointed not to receive the Order of Merlin First Class in PoA and so furiously reluctant to believe that Sirius was not a murderer. Carol, realizing that the second and third paragraphs are somewhat speculative but hoping that the first, at least, presents an explanation worth considering From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 06:26:51 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 06:26:51 -0000 Subject: Death Eaters in the DoM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106318 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > I first re-read the DE fight scene in the DoM ("Beyond the Veil", > OotP) to find out what happened to each of them and mainly, who was > the babyheaded DE? > > ...edited... > > SITUATION A: > > Death Eater's A and B are Crabbe (7) and Rabastan (8). The baby > headed DE is Crabbe most likely. That DE in question is described as > quite large and powerful. This suits a description of Crabbe Jr. > > This means that DE's J and K who appearently didn't fight anyone are > MacNair (9) and Avery (10). Ok, it works out fine right? Not > quite... > > ...edited... > > SITUATION B: > > Death Eater's A and B are MacNair (9) and Avery (10). MacNair gets > stunned, Avery turns into our pal with a baby's head. Problem: Avery > is NOT described as being muscular. > > What of Crabbe and Rabastan? Well, they don't fight anyone, and are > sent in the complete wrong direction. They never end up finding > them, and aren't around for the final battle. > > SITUATION C.... > > I have yet to find one that fully works without someone 'magically > disappearing' or fleeing. Some other variations included having > Lucius and Mulciber being A and B, with Mulciber being our baby. > > ...edited... > > Who exactly is our baby head DE? Crabbe fits the description, and > Avery fits someone who would vanish. (Situation A) > > ...edited... > > ...edited... > > Mike, who realizes this is confusing and wishes that the Death > Eater's didn't wear masks. Asian_lovr2: As I read your post, I thought I might have an alternate means of solving the puzzle. --- Quote - Am Ed HB - pg 778 --- ... heard Lucius Malfoy roar, "Leave Nott, leave him, I say ? his injuries will be nothing to the Dark Lord compared to losing that prophecy. Jugson, come back here, we need to organise! We'll split into pairs and search,... - Bellatrix, Rodolphus, you take the left; - Crabbe, Rabastan, go right - Jugson, Dolohov, the door straight ahead - Macnair and Avery, through here - Rookwood, over there - Mulciber, come with me!" [slighlty reformatted] - - - End Quote - - - My assumption was that Lucius's instructions would give us some sense of proximity; who was closest. Jugson and Dolohov go 'straight ahead'. Macnair and Avery go 'through here'; note, not 'there' but 'here'. Those two pairs sound like they were the closest. 'Take the left' and 'go right' imply to me, that they should /go away/; that they are leaving the immediate area. 'Rookwood over there' again sounds like he is being sent away; he is going 'there' not 'here'. 'Come with me' (Malfoy and Mulciber) indicates they are in close proximity, but yields no clue as to destination. So give the implied proximity, and that we know Jugson and Dolohov come into the room as the second pair of DE's, that leaves us with Macnair and Avery as one pair, and Malfoy and Mulciber as the other. I too was under the assumption that Avery was small, but I search for references to him in both GoF and OotP, and couldn't actually find a description of him. Then I thought perhaps I had mistaken the description of Rookwood in Harry's 'Voldemort dream' for Avery who enters the room when Rookwood leaves, while Rookwood's posture is described as 'cowering', but his overal stature in not described. So, no chance of confusing the two. Initially, I thought the 'baby DE' had to be Avery, but I admit 'muscular' was not how I pictured him. Can anyone remember any place in any of the books where Avery is described? Ignoring the issue of physical statue, I conclued the 'baby DE' was Avery, but am left with doubts. Just a thought. Steve/asian_lovr2 From patientx3 at aol.com Thu Jul 15 06:30:31 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 06:30:31 -0000 Subject: The Virtues of Hufflepuff House and Cedric Diggory (Was: Snape and . . .courage) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106319 Carol wrote: >>I think the Sorting Hat was making a point about Helga Hufflepuff and her values, her willingness to teach everything she knew to any wizard child willing to learn, than about Hufflepuff as a House in the passage you're referring to. The essence of what Hufflepuff itself can be, and perhaps is intended to be, summed up in Cedric Diggory. What a tragedy that he died at seventeen. I only hope he's not forgotten in the coming books.<< HunterGreen: The sad thing is that Cedric was always looked upon as such a "surprise" in a way to the Hufflepuff house (which as its said over and over again in GoF, hardly ever gets any glory). The general attitude in the books (and its echoed rather often by fans, who often try to put 'lower intelligence' characters like Neville or Peter in Hufflepuff, when the house is never said to be "stupid"; although I do concede that Neville has *other* Hufflepuff characteristics), is that being a Hufflepuff is nothing to be proud of. And I wonder how much of that is JKR's intention. However, thank you for your intrepretation on the Sorting Hat's song in OotP. I hope that was the intention, because looking at it that way makes me feel quite a bit better (when I first read it I was rather horrified after the good impression I had of Hufflepuff from PoA/OotP). From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 06:38:15 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 06:38:15 -0000 Subject: "M**blood" and handicap In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106320 Jocelyn answered : > I think it's more like using 'nigger' or 'kike'. Not just the fact, > but a judgement of inferiority as well. Muggle is a value-neutral > word. Mudblood is an insult. Del replies : I don't think it's "just" an insult. Crowds don't react so strongly and so massively to insults, even the worst ones. But when Draco uses the word, *every single* wizard-born kid reacts strongly and gets on Draco's case. That doesn't remind of a crowd's reaction to an insult. It reminds of a crowd's reaction to a *taboo*. Del From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 07:20:34 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 07:20:34 -0000 Subject: Ron's "poor me" syndrome. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106321 Alla wrote : > By itself, every one of his complaints is normal, together it gets a > bit much for me. Del replies : I found that each and every one of his "complaints" was justified and *had* to be spoken. Ron hates being poor, so it would NOT have made sense if he hadn't complained at the times he did. To me, his complaints are just as normal as Hermione berating the boys when they don't do their homework. Alla wrote : > Which perspective I was talking about? That material things in life > are important , but not as important as having your loved ones around > you. Del replies : I'm sure Ron knows that. Just look at the way he reacted to Percy's letter. For that matter, just look at the way the younger Weasley kids reacted to Percy telling his dad that it was his fault they were so poor. They all suffer from being poor, but they all know that what their dad did give them (love) is more important than what he didn't give them (money). Ron never accused his parents of not giving him what they should ; he just hates being poor, and there's nothing wrong with that. Del From jakejensen at hotmail.com Thu Jul 15 07:35:55 2004 From: jakejensen at hotmail.com (jakedjensen) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 07:35:55 -0000 Subject: Pureblood Vs. Halfblood (was Dudley as HBP??!!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106322 > > Tilly adds: >> > I would be inclined toward a similar idea for pureblooded wizards. A > pureblood would be one who had wizarding ancestors for a specified > number of generations, in a specified number of lines of descent. > > A muggleborn equates with someone who is raised to the nobility. Both > parents are muggles. > > A halfblood is someone who falls between the two. Either one parent > is a muggle or there is a muggle within the specified number of > generations. > Jake replies: I think you are right to associate the blood lineage in the WW with history in the real world (french aristocracy seems to be a fitting group to pick as well). The point that I was driving at, and I think we basically agree on this, is that the blood in question is the blood of the old wizarding families. So, for example, when someone says they are "pure-blood" they are referring to the extent to which they are related (by blood) to the old wizarding families. This is how aristocracies function, everything is a matter of blood. Not just any blood of course, there is always some old, noble blood that everyone is trying to claim stake in. So what's a half-blood? Well, that's the real debate in an aristocracy. Trying to prove you have significant stake in the blood lineage. Ernie Mac. does so, as an act of defense, by asserting the length to which he can trace his blood lineage back. Ernie is trying to show he has a strong connection to the old blood. He needs to do this because the difference between pure-bloods and half-bloods is somewhat subjective in the WW (and in most aristoc.). Few, if any, wizards have 100% old family blood in them, so the difference between pure and half is a matter of opinion. There does seem to be some sort of threshhold though, as people generally agree on who is half and who is not. In aristocracies, immediate lineage dictates status (hence Ernies generational claim). If you are already falling apart (blood wise) one generation back, then you are a half-blood. Once agian, matters of blood are (and always have been) subjective. Hence the need to defend one's blood (i.e., Ernie). SO, a half-blood's "half" is their blood connection to the old wizard families. If you have no connection, you cannot be a half. It doesn't matter whether two muggle-bloods have a child...the child still has no blood connection to the old wizarding families. They are what aristocracies call "new money." And, as is always the case, new money can try to buy into the bloodline (think rich merchant marrying his daughter to a dead broke third generation son of a royal family), but they aren't just in the bloodline because they have money. Does that make sense? The difference here is between old family wizarding blood and magic blood. Just because you have magic ability (Lily) doesn't mean you have any blood connection (which she doesn't). Harry does though, becuase James was had old blood. So now Harry's half. I think many people have tried to approach this from the muggle side in the past, which is a bit backwards. The blood at hand is the old blood. The categorical scheme (pure, half, muggle) is inherently oppressive and meant to keep "new blood" (new money) from having any power without blood (or any power at all). As said earlier, A pure-blood is someone with direct blood lineage on both sides of their immediate family (pure-bloods will, by the way, attempt to prove they are more pure than other pure-bloods--Ernie and Malfoy-- because the extent of your purity is a symbol of presige). A half-blood is someone with at least a drop of old-wizarding blood. Some half-bloods, of course, will attempt to claim purity. Others will be labeled so thin in old-blood as to be out of the lineage. But any amount of blood counts and, in an aristocracy, would be useful. A muggle-blood has no connection to the old blood. The only way to move up (once again, this is an oppressive framework benefitting those at the top--not surprising since it's their framework) is to buy into the blood (through marriage). The muggle-blood that marries a pure or half, of course, remains a muggle-blood, but their children will then move up in blood status. What would happen if two muggle-bloods had a child? Nothing (in terms of blood). Think about it: If two rich merchants had a child, the child wouldn't suddenly become royality. To become royality, in an aristocracy, you have to merge with the lineage itself. Whew! That was a long one. But hopefully I have made sense. Jake From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 07:39:54 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 07:39:54 -0000 Subject: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106323 Gielreta: > Really, do we want Harry to be mature forever? If he had never > acted his age, could we relate to him as well as we do, or would he > be more of a nice statue that we admire? Del replies : Uh, now that you mention it, that's about how I've always related to Harry : a nice statue to be admired. As a kid, I was too mature for my own good, and I had mastered the art of not letting my feelings show. But in the inside, I was boiling, all the time ! So I guess that's why I never was able to relate to Harry : because he was always so passive. He would react when big things happened, but most of the time, he just took things in. Even inside of him, it didn't seem to matter. So I just accepted him as he was : someone who doesn't get emotional very easily. And then suddenly, in book 5, he starts to have an inside life, he becomes almost over-emotional. It was too much of a leap for me. Harry didn't seem very real to me until book 5, but OoP only made it worse. Just *my* experience, not The Truth About Harry Del. From v-tregan at microsoft.com Thu Jul 15 07:55:41 2004 From: v-tregan at microsoft.com (Tim Regan (Intl Vendor)) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 08:55:41 +0100 Subject: Is Snape a Vampire (was Re: How did Sirius lure Severus into the Willow? (was: James the Berk?)) Message-ID: <502C27106D99DB478C13DEDBFD185E15D646BD@EUR-MSG-12.europe.corp.microsoft.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106324 Hi All, Wow - I thought this was the canonical oh-no-not-that-again-doesn't-anyone-read-old-posts thread subject; so it feels kind of naughty posting. I won't dig over all the evidence as others have done that better and the link that Pippin gave to http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/mysteries.html which in turn links to posts back in October 2000 covers them. But Pippin how can your statement: >>> Snape was a part-vampire who, by means of a switching spell, allowed Voldemort to acquire his vampire characteristics, receiving in exchange the last portion of Voldemort's humanity <<< And JKR's assertion that she doesn't think that there is any link between Snape and Vampires both be true? They look like stark contradictions to me. I ought to declare an interest - in my copies of the texts the pages containing any reference to vampires or to vampire related stuff are carefully folded over. Cheers, Dumbledad [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lysandrabellargus at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 14 20:07:30 2004 From: lysandrabellargus at yahoo.co.uk (Sandra) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:07:30 -0000 Subject: Lily's Eyes / Colour scheme in HP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106325 Hi > Cassie: > > I never really thought about the color of Lily's eyes, because JKR > had said that there was a connection and I assumed it would be > explained in the books,particularly in book five (though book two > mentioned it). I think now, that it really was. > Also, Sandra, I didn't think about the color usage at all until now. Voldemort's eyes are red, Harry's are green. Red=Gryffindor, and green=Slytherin. ... I think that it enforces that while Harry (and possibly Lily?) have a bit of Voldemort inside him, Voldemort has some of Harry in him too. > > Cassie Cassie, I now think the usage of colour might not be that meaningful in the end (there a plenty of red and green light spells by each side), and I would rather stick to my other explanation about Lily's eyes, which is to be also a metaphor for her views, of which we learned in Snape's worst memory. But if anyone can add to the colour-scheme view of the books, I look forward to read it. Thanks for the posts about the colour of Gryffindor-Slytherin house. Sandra From sad1199 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 23:46:59 2004 From: sad1199 at yahoo.com (sad1199) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 23:46:59 -0000 Subject: Who would love Snape? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106326 In an earlier post a quote from JKR was mentioned and part of it was "Who would (or could) love Snape?" Here's my idea of who would love Snape: She would be a very strong patient witch. Probably a Hufflepuff. She would at first think of Snape as the dark/mysterious bad boy type and then after she forced her way into his life she would see the pain and anger underneath his nasty exterior and have to fix it. She would also find that he is a VERY loyal and trustworthy wizard. At first, Severus would resent any intrusion into his pathetic unhappy life but, she would persist until she broke through the barriers he has raised. We all hate (well, obviously I don't...) Snape because he is horrible to the hero Harry. It doesn't say that he is horrible to everybody, in fact he can be quite pleasant to members of his own house. Also, Snape cannot stand incompetence in others (Neville) because his father found only incompetence in him. I would like to see Severus find a love in book 6 or 7. I think that when it all comes to an end, he will be standing in victory with Harry and whomever else survives. From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 15 08:08:06 2004 From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:08:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHHermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040715080806.70976.qmail@web25304.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106327 justcarol67 wrote: Jim Ferer wrote: Could you point out how she [Hermione] shows her romantic attachment to Ron? Carol responded: Okay, I'm not a shipper, but one quote says it all: "Next time there's a ball, ask me before someone else does, and not as a last resort!" (GoF Am. ed. 432). If that's not showing her romantic attachment to Ron (and her frustration with him for not recognizing his own attraction to her), I'm a mandrake. Well, okay, that's pushing it a bit far. But to me, that one remark says all we need to know about Hermione's feelings for Ron. Now Udderpd : You have effectivly said that Hermione says what she means and I agree. I believe that Hermione would have gone to the Ball with either Harry or Ron if either of them had asked her early on. By the time they got round to it she had accepted a date with Victor because she did not want to go alone. Ron was fantasizing over Fleur and Harry over Cho. And we won't forget that JKR wanted to get Krum into the story will we. So let us look at some of the other things Hermione says: Hermione is distracted and mainly concerned with a letter to Viktor when Ron says to Harry, "Are you that bad at kissing?" Harry answers "Dunno, maybe I am." Hermione says without thinking "Of course your not," is this truth said unguardedly? "How do you know?" said Ron very sharply. Does this bring her to her senses because shortly after Hermione says two things both to Ron: "Ron, you are the most insensitive wart I have ever had the misfortune to meet." then less than half a page later. "Just because you have the emotional range of a teaspoon doesn't mean we all have." I think that here we have Hermione setting out her stall; Ron your one of my best friends but I don't fancy you; and Harry I assure you I have never cried when I have dreamed of kissing you. I has been suggested that these are terms of enderment from Hermione to Ron, then I will ask what will she have to say to tell him I am not interested in you romanticly. I will leave it there. TTFN Udder PenDragon ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 08:12:29 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 08:12:29 -0000 Subject: Return from the Underworld in Ancient Mythology (Re: Sirius Black) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106328 Brenda asked: By the way, if anyone is familiar with it, what is the canon supporting Vampire!Snape (besides the fact that Lupin set the essay after Snape's Werewolf assignment)? Carol responds: None. The Vampire!Snape theory was nixed by JKR herself in the World Book Day chat: "Megan: Is there a link between Snape and vampires? JK Rowling: Erm... I don't think so." http://www.worldbookdayfestival.com/2004/jkrowling_chat.html Carol From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 08:15:50 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 08:15:50 -0000 Subject: Patronus at DADA OWL (was Re: Harry's Future...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106329 cincimaelder wrote: > when he did his DADA O.W.L, again the tester seemed very impressed > (and gave him bonus points) for producing a corporeal Patronus and he > did it without a dementor around that time. Del replies : Irk :-) ! That one made *my* temper rise when I first read it. The examiner gave Harry bonus points for something that other students knew how to do as well, but he didn't ask *them* !! It's just like when Hermione answers a teacher's question without letting anyone else a chance to answer (I think it was in CoMC with Grubbly-Plank) and gets points for that. OK, granted we know that usually nobody else ever volunteers answers anyway, but the point is that nobody else had a *chance* to grab those points and Grubbly-Plank didn't seem to care about that. Nobody else was given a chance to grab extra points in their DADA OWL by producing a Patronus, even though we know that at least 2 other students are able to do it. They probably don't need extra points to grab an O in the OWL, but then neither does Harry. It just all smacks of favouritism. And then of course I looked at the details, and I understood why it all happened, what was behind it. Professor Tofty, the examiner, says that he's an old friend of Tiberius Ogden. We know that Tiberius Ogden was one of the 2 members of the Wizengamot who resigned when Umbridge was appointed High Inquisitor (interestingly enough, the other one was Griselda Marchbanks, who happens to be another one of the examiners, their leader even. Makes me wonder who appoints the examiners ??). And finally, we know that Umbridge was in the room while Harry was taking his DADA OWL (isn't that against the rules, by the way ??). So it seems pretty obvious to me that Prof. Tofty was trying to kill 2 birds with one stone : give Harry some well-needed emotional support, and bug Umbridge to no end. Go, Tofty, go ! It still smacks of favouritism, but my only regret is that we don't get to see Malfoy's face when he learns of that little incident :-D ! Del From susanarb at ourwest.com Thu Jul 15 02:48:59 2004 From: susanarb at ourwest.com (Susan Arb) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 02:48:59 -0000 Subject: Harry's future... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106330 Jim Ferer: > DD needs Lupin at Hogwarts, as a teacher, which he's excellent at, as > another mentor and protector for Harry, and to help fight the War. So > yes, I think it can be done. It probably isn't the solution we'll see > in HBP, but it's what I'd do. I wouldn't mind seeing Lupin back as DADA teacher, but I also think Moody should come back. After all, he never actually taught. His sole role as teacher seemed to be attending a feast. We need to see him teaching the students. After all, Harry needs to learn a lot more before he can stand up to LV on his own. From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 08:27:02 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 08:27:02 -0000 Subject: Polyjuiced Hermione In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106331 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mcmaxslb" wrote: > ---Jason wrote: > > Why does JKR go through the extra words and pages to turn Hermione > > into a cat?... Is this just showing us that polyjuice is only for > > humans? > McMax: > > I felt that JKR did it to add humor. It was funny that she turned > into a cat! Plus it showed that Hermione is not infallible, that she > can make mistakes. > > McMax Asian_lovr2: I think it was for all these reason; polyjuice on Humans only, humor, insight into Hermione, etc.... But my take has always been much simpler, JKR needs to add some variety to the various adventures. If it's always Harry, Ron, and Hermione then they all have a sameness to them, and too many people in a scene create distraction and dilute the action. Having to account for each person's reaction slows down the flow of a scene and clutters the action. We see this in many cases in the minor adventures as well as the major. Ron and Harry have a fight, so Harry spends time with Hermione developing the plot. Ron doesn't go into the forest looking for the wounded Unicorn. Ron does go into the forest looking for spiders. Ron and Hermione travel through time while Ron sits in the Shack with a broken leg. So, while I think it brings up opportunities for hints to be dropped and plot to be developed, I think it is primarily a way for the author to create variety and keep various scenes uncluttered. Just a thought. Steve/asian_lovr2 From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 08:27:07 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 08:27:07 -0000 Subject: ...HRH friendship - SS/PS the obstacle course was meant for HRH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106332 Jen wrote: OK Susan, I'm getting more and more convinced that you're right about this issue ;). I wasn't convinved Sat., but you and Vivian put forth some very compelling evidence. I have just one teeny, tiny problem with it though: If Dumbledore did believe Harry would try to go down the trapdoor, and DD helped him prepare for it, I see a glaring inconsistency in the characterization of Dumbledore. > The only way I can resolve this for myself is to believe Dumbledore > expected to be nearby to help Harry, if he got in over his head. But > it still bothers me :). Carol responds: I also have a "teeny tiny" problem with the theory. Didn't Dumbledore and the professors set up the obstacles (with the exception of the mirror, which certainly was charmed or magically directed for Harry's benefit) before the term began, before they could possibly know anything about, say, Hermione's logical abilities or Ron's skill as a chess player or Harry's skill at Quidditch? IMO, the only manipulator here is JKR herself, who set it up so that Harry's friends could play key roles but only he would face Quirrellmort at the end. Also, Dumbledore certainly didn't know that Voldemort was inside Quirrell's head or that his contribution to the obstacles (a troll) was one that he could easily control himself but others (he probably assumed) could not. I'm pretty sure that he placed the troll in the obstacle course *before* Harry and Ron defeated another troll in the bathroom. Carol From eeyore5497 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 04:03:16 2004 From: eeyore5497 at yahoo.com (eeyore5497) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 04:03:16 -0000 Subject: Phineas Nigellus Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106333 Has anybody noticed in OoP p. 826, 828 that Phineas Nigellus which is Sirius' Great Great Grandfather, first of all has a different last name (not Black, how can that be?) & that it is stated #1- p. 826 that Phineas does not believe that Sirius the last of the Blacks is dead and #2 on p.828 it is stated that he still had not returned to his portrait in Dumbledore's Study. Why would she state that he did not return if it wasn't significant? Did she forget, I don't think so... Why didn't he come back? Did he find something? From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 08:39:36 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 08:39:36 -0000 Subject: SHHermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss In-Reply-To: <20040715080806.70976.qmail@web25304.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106334 > "Next time there's a ball, ask me before someone else does, and not > as a last resort!" (GoF Am. ed. 432). Udderpd commented : > I believe that Hermione would have gone to the Ball with either Harry > or Ron if either of them had asked her early on. Del replies : Let me nitpick, by saying that she didn't mention Harry. She said that pointedly to Ron and Ron alone. Harry had entered the room by that time, but she didn't round on Harry to shout at him too. Assuming that she included Harry in her statement is just that : an assumption. Truth is : she told *Ron* that she would have accepted his offer if he had done it properly and in time. Udderpd wrote : > Hermione is distracted and mainly concerned with a letter to Viktor > when Ron says to Harry, "Are you that bad at kissing?" > Harry answers "Dunno, maybe I am." > Hermione says without thinking "Of course your not," is this truth > said unguardedly? Del replies : I don't understand you. How could it be any kind of personal truth concerning Harry ? If Hermione had already kissed Harry, I think we would know. If she had only dreamed of kissing Harry as you pretend, then it wouldn't be the truth : it would only be hopeful thinking. However, it is a *general* truth : nobody is such a bad kisser as to make someone else cry. Hermione has got a dorm-full of girls around her every night, and I'm ready to bet that most of them (including herself ?) have already been kissed and discuss that to no end quite often. Udderpd wrote : > "How do you know?" said Ron very sharply. > Does this bring her to her senses because shortly after Hermione says > two things both to Ron: > "Ron, you are the most insensitive wart I have ever had the > misfortune to meet." then less than half a page later. "Just because > you have the emotional range of a teaspoon doesn't mean we all have." Del replies : I happen to like Ron quite a lot (in case nobody had noticed :-), and I felt *exactly* like Hermione. She just stated our common opinion in a much more elaborate (and much funnier) way than I would have. The comments Ron made were simply *appalling* !! Even if Ron had been her official boy-friend, I'm dead certain Hermione would have scolded him quite harshly for saying what he said. Udderpd wrote : > I has been suggested that these are terms of enderment from Hermione > to Ron, then I will ask what will she have to say to tell him I am > not interested in you romanticly. Del replies : State it clearly, any time he acts jealous ? "Ron, you're not my boyfriend and you will never be, so stop acting like you own me or something." She *has* noticed Ron's jealousy, and she never has any problem telling Ron what she thinks of him. So why should she be shy on that subject ? It's Harry she doesn't know how to handle, not Ron. If she wanted him off her back, she would take the appropriate measures, I have no doubt about that. The fact that she endures his jealousy seems to indicate that she doesn't mind it. The *only* thing she doesn't tolerate is when Ron belittles Viktor, and that's quite normal : Viktor is at least a very good friend, she'll defend him from anyone just like she defends Harry. But other than that, she doesn't mind Ron's jealousy. Maybe she even... enjoys it ;-) ? Del From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 08:49:32 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 08:49:32 -0000 Subject: Royalty in WW after all? In-Reply-To: <20040712030122.65327.qmail@web25110.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106335 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lee Moyo wrote: Jacqui wrote: > Andromeda was the princess of Ethiopia, daughter of Cepheus and > Cassiopeia. > That would give us our royalty aspect of HBP. I was looking up > Andromeda on the Lexicon but there is virtualy nothing on her. All > we know is that she married Ted Tonks (Whom we know NOTHING > about)...do we know anything else? Does Tonks have a brother???? Lee: I am going out on a limb here and on memory but this could be something. Correct me if I am wrong but Andromeda married a muggle, or half blood, which is Ted Tonks and their daughter was Nymphadora (The Tonks) and we all know that the Blacks thought being Black practically made you to be like Royalty. So maybe it could be Tonks. Carol responds: We do know that Ted Tonks was a Muggleborn (not a half-blood) and that Andromeda's name was burned off the Black Family tapestry because she married him ("The Noble and Most Ancient House of Black," OoP. I don't know the page number offhand.) We can also guess (as I think Neri said the other day) that he's somewhat older than the Potters would be because Tonks is somewhat older than Harry (about six years, I think) and the Potters were very young when they had Harry. I'm guessing he'd be about Lucius Malfoy's age, which was 41 at the end of GoF. That's not much to go on, I know. It does make Tonks a half-blood, but I very much doubt that she's the "prince," even if she does go by her last name like a man. And I'm pretty sure she doesn't have a brother, or Sirius would have mentioned him in the discussion of his relatives. BTW, Andromeda's name is probably chiefly significant in that, like most other Blacks (cf. Bellatrix, Sirius, and Regulus), she's named after a constellation or star. Narcissa, named after a flower, is an exception, but she resumed the tradition by naming her son Draco, in the Black rather than the Malfoy tradition. I'm not sure that the original Andromeda's being a queen has anything to do with it. But then Bellatrix means "woman warrior" and Sirius is of course the Dog Star, so maybe it does mean something. Carol, who recalls reading that the Narcissus is a poisonous flower and thinks we might want to look into that, too Carol Carol From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 08:54:05 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 08:54:05 -0000 Subject: The Virtues of Hufflepuff House and Cedric Diggory (Was: Snape and . . .cour In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106336 HunterGreen: > The sad thing is that Cedric was always looked upon as such > a "surprise" in a way to the Hufflepuff house (which as its said over > and over again in GoF, hardly ever gets any glory). The general > attitude in the books is that being a Hufflepuff is nothing to be > proud of. And I wonder how much of that is JKR's intention. Del replies : Well, she's the one who had a kid (Neville ?) say that "Hufflepuff wouldn't be too bad", and Hagrid call the Hufflepuffs "a load of duffers" (might not be exact quotes, but I'm sure I'm not very far), right back in PS/SS. Then in CoS, Ernie's bunch of Hufflepuffs appear quite stupid, coward and even ridiculous for believing so easily that Harry is the Heir of Slytherin and for making up huge stories about Harry and Justin. Then of course there's simply the way the few Hufflepuffs we know are described : Justin the bubbling Muggle quasi-aristocrat or obvious queer figure, Ernie the New Percy, Hannah Abbott and her pigtails. And of course Cedric "pretty boy" Diggory. We readers might be aware that Cedric is really a neat person, but Harry's (and the other Gryffindors, in particular the twins) constant dislike of him is *bound* to have an effect on our judgement after a while. And then in OoP, we get Zacharias Smith ! So yes, I think it is quite obvious that JKR intended for us to have little consideration for the Hufflepuffs. Now, why ever she would do that, I have no idea, but the proofs are there. Del From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 15 08:59:15 2004 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:59:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Phineas Nigellus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040715085915.65070.qmail@web25107.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106337 --- eeyore5497 wrote: Phineas Nigellus which is Sirius' Great Great Grandfather, first of all has a different last name (not Black, how can that be?) Hans' quick answer: 1. Everybody has 8 great great grandfathers, only one of whom bears the same surname as you yourself. 2. I've always assumed Nigellus is a middle name. Some people are known by their first 2 names. A special distinction I guess. Snobbery. Or maybe every first son (in those days) was called Phineas, with the second name being used to distinguish, a la Johan Sebastian Bach & Johan Christian Bach (father and son). Hans ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 09:04:21 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:04:21 -0000 Subject: Cousins by marriage ? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106338 Sirius says he and Molly are cousins by marriage. What does that mean ? To me, that would mean that one of the two married the other's cousin. But that's obviously impossible. So what does it mean ? Del From anita_hillin at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 09:09:29 2004 From: anita_hillin at yahoo.com (AnitaKH) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 02:09:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] "M**blood" and handicap In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040715090929.77910.qmail@web42103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106339 Jocelyn answered : > I think it's more like using 'nigger' or 'kike'. Not just the fact, but a judgment of inferiority as well. Muggle is a value-neutral word. Mudblood is an insult. Del replies : I don't think it's "just" an insult. Crowds don't react so strongly and so massively to insults, even the worst ones. But when Draco uses the word, *every single* wizard-born kid reacts strongly and gets on Draco's case. That doesn't remind of a crowd's reaction to an insult. It reminds of a crowd's reaction to a *taboo*. akh (with too much help from the kittens): Believe me, where I grew up (Great Plains of the US), the "n" word WAS taboo. The strong reaction in CoS to Draco's use of Mudblood looks very much like a reaction that would have occurred in my sixth grade class if anyone had called our classmate Duane that racial epithet (I still can't bring myself to write that word, it's so ingrained as a horrible pejorative). Rowling stated in the CoS DVD interview that the pureblood issue is "what passes for racism in the Wizarding World." We are not yet privy to the nuances of that racism, but some of the reaction to the "m" word may very well be "it's true, but don't advertise it." However, the general outcry at Draco calling Hermione a mudblood was from the Gryffindors, not the Slytherins, so I suspect the more enlightened kids from the WW are truly outraged. Rereading my response, I think I've just agreed with both of you. I do see Mudblood as akin to the Jocelyn's examples, and I think it's a bigger issue than a mere insult, as Del points out. akh, who's not sure why she's up at 4 a.m.... ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From saraandra at saraandra.plus.com Thu Jul 15 09:11:31 2004 From: saraandra at saraandra.plus.com (amanitamuscaria1) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:11:31 -0000 Subject: Polyjuiced Hermione In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106340 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jason" wrote: snip > Why does JKR go through the extra words and pages to turn Hermione > into a cat? The boys didnt find out any information or get into any > trouble that would have benefited Hermione not being a part of. > Nothing comes of her stint in the hospital wing. >snip > > Jason AmanitaMuscaria now : As other people have said, for the humour and to let people know Hermione isn't infallible ... BUT I find it a bit suspicious that she has the time-turner in PoA, the very next book. So I assume that during the time she spent isolated in the hospital wing, she proved her abilities of self-reliance, motivation, and grit to the extent that she was allowed a 'privilege' (to nearly have a breakdown with the time-turner) that I guess very few adults in the WW get, much less teenagers. Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria From jferer at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 09:34:35 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:34:35 -0000 Subject: SHHermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106341 Carol, quoting Hermione as the example of her romantic attachment to Ron: ""Next time there's a ball, ask me before someone else does, and not as a last resort!" (GoF Am. ed. 432)." Carol:"If that's not showing her romantic attachment to Ron (and her frustration with him for not recognizing his own attraction to her), I'm a mandrake. Well, okay, that's pushing it a bit far. But to me, that one remark says all we need to know about Hermione's feelings for Ron." Okay. You're a girl, and for the last weeks one of your best friends (male) has been bitching and moaning that he can't find a date who's not a troll; totally ignores you; pushed to the wall, he allows how he just might take you, having tried everything else; then, after you've got a date from the celebrity half the girls in school are gaga for, he gets on your case for consorting with the "enemy." Might you not have some pointed remarks about that? Heck, a Yankees fan wouldn't even do what Ron did to a Red Sox fan. I think the feeling Hermione is expressing here is her outrage at the way Ron treated her, and the notion that she somehow should stay nunnishly loyal to the clod who can't figure out her chromosomes are XX. Why isn't her anger directed at Harry as well? She knows he wanted to ask Cho, and he's not the one who went stupid. Hermione might have been attracted to Ron in GoF, but it's going too far to quote that scene as perfect proof. Jim Ferer From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 09:45:18 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:45:18 -0000 Subject: "M**blood" and handicap In-Reply-To: <20040715090929.77910.qmail@web42103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106342 I, Del, wrote : > I don't think it's "just" an insult. Crowds don't react so strongly > and so massively to insults, even the worst ones. But when Draco uses > the word, *every single* wizard-born kid reacts strongly and gets on > Draco's case. That doesn't remind of a crowd's reaction to an insult. > > It reminds of a crowd's reaction to a *taboo*. akh (with too much help from the kittens): > Believe me, where I grew up (Great Plains of the US), the "n" word > WAS taboo. The strong reaction in CoS to Draco's use of Mudblood > looks very much like a reaction that would have occurred in my sixth > grade class if anyone had called our classmate Duane that racial > epithet (I still can't bring myself to write that word, it's so > ingrained as a horrible pejorative). Del replies : Ah, OK then. Thanks for the example (sad as it is). Akh wrote : > the general outcry at Draco calling Hermione a mudblood was from the > Gryffindors, not the Slytherins, so I suspect the more enlightened > kids from the WW are truly outraged. Del replies : Uh, quite true, now that you mention it. (That brings back the old question of whatever is wrong with the Slytherin kids, but that's another post entirely). Akh wrote : > Rereading my response, I think I've just agreed with both of you. I > do see Mudblood as akin to the Jocelyn's examples, and I think it's a > bigger issue than a mere insult, as Del points out. > > akh, who's not sure why she's up at 4 a.m.... Del replies : To make good points and enlighten me :-) ? Del From eldermomx3 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 07:10:42 2004 From: eldermomx3 at yahoo.com (eldermomx3) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 07:10:42 -0000 Subject: Ron's "poor me" syndrome. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106343 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" > Alla quoted : > > "Ron had taken out a lumpy package and unwrapped it. There were > > four sandwiches inside. He pulled one of them apart and said, "She > > always forgets I don't like corned beef." PS/SS, p.101 > > Del replies : > Well, excuse me, but if when I was 11, my mom had not been able to > remember what foods I don't like (especially since Ron seems to like > most foods, so the list of those he doesn't like must be very short), > I would have been downright mad. I consider it a basic proof of love > to make the effort to remember what your loved ones like to eat and > wear. They are *people* with likes and dislikes, not animals submitted to the will of their caretaker. MJ Here: I very lucky to be from a family of nine (6 girls, 1 boy though). And I would have never dreamed to consider it a basic proof of love for my mom to make an effort to remember my likes and dislikes in food. Unless you are from a large family, it's hard to imagine the happy chaos that life is. It is pretty much "here's the food, eat up!" > > Alla quoted : > > "Why aren't you wearing yours, Ron?" George demanded. > > "Come on, get it on, they're lovely and warm." > > "I hate maroon," Ron moaned halfheartedly as he pulled it > > over his head." ? PS/SS, p.202 > > Del replies : > Why do you think the twins tease Ron about wearing his jumper ? > Because they know he hates maroon. Molly should, too. That's the basic of gift-giving : making sure you're not offering something that the person *reputedly* doesn't like. If one of my friends offered me a > pink fluffy cardigan, I'd be severely disappointed, and I would wonder how much that so-called friend actually cares about me, if they don't even know how much I hate pink, and fluffy clothes. MJ here again: Ron didn't say that he told his mom he hated maroon. It sounded kind of half-hearted to me. And he doesn't mention it like that again in the other books when he gets his maroon sweater. Again from my experience with a large family, sometimes things like that just happen. Bill probably gets brown, Charlie gets a light blue one, Percy's was green, the twins' were dark blue. By the time she got to Ron, maroon probably seemed a good color. I think it shows that she does see them as individuals. Just that the tradition isn't one that Ron is really pleased with. My mom used to make us matching dresses for Easter. She was so proud of them and we have all these pictures of us standing on the lawn together with our dresses on. I can't say that I thought it was great but she was very proud of it. > > Alla quoted : > > "It's a bit small," said Ron quickly. "Not like that > > room you had with the Muggles. And I am right underneath the ghoul in > > the attic; he is always banging on the pipes and groaning " > > But Harry, grinning wildly, said, "This is the best house > > I've ever been in." > > Ron's ears went pink" ?CoS, am.ed., p.41 > > Del replies : > No, Alla, please not this one ! It's so OBVIOUSLY a direct parallel to what many many MANY people do every day ! Ron is afraid of making a > bad impression on Harry, he's afraid his best pal will think little of his home and most particularly of his room. He's seen Harry's room, > and he's afraid Harry will regret it, because it's bigger and quieter. So he apologises in advance. I do that all the time !! MJ here: Ron seems very pleased with his own room. More than likely he probably shared a room until Charlie moved on to Romania, so having his own room, however small was probably great. I do agree that he is doing what you say and apologising in advance. But I think his ears turn pink because he's pleased that Harry likes it so well. > Alla quoted : > > "Well, they `re okay!" said Ron angrily, looking at Harry's robes, > > Why couldn't I have something like that?" ? GoF, p.156 > > Del replies : > Mom's Ron just bought his 14-year-old boy maroon girl-gown-like robes... MJ Here: I think Molly was trying to do the best she could in this situation. She says that's what they had left. At the end she gets mad, I think to cover up that she feels bad about it too. > > Alla wrote : > > Is it a mortal sin for Ron to complain about his poorness? Surely not, BUT it does get very annoying. I am expecting Ron to put things > > in perspective by now. > > Del replies : > I don't find that annoying at all. I'm even surprised at how little > Ron complains. I had friends who complained 10 times more, even though > they were nowhere as poor as Ron. > > Del MJ here: I totally agree, Del. Ron hardly complains at all. I don't think he has a "poor me" syndrome at all. He is just telling how he feels, perfectly normally, I think. I also see some of the fun he has with his family. The scene with the picnic tables in the garden (GOF Chapter 5) seems to be a great time and the meal when Harry first gets to 12 GP (OOTP Chapter 5) sound as if they are happy times. Families that have a lot of tension in them don't usually have such fun IMO. I know when my family gets together now there is a lot of laughing and fun and we had plenty of fights when we were kids. Thanks for letting me share my view. -MJ From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Thu Jul 15 08:49:28 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 04:49:28 -0400 Subject: Patronus at DADA OWL (was Re: Harry's Future...) Message-ID: <000a01c46a48$a3f887e0$85c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 106344 Del replies "Nobody else was given a chance to grab extra points in their DADA OWL by producing a Patronus, even though we know that at least 2 other students are able to do it. They probably don't need extra points to grab an O in the OWL, but then neither does Harry." Cathy - coming out of lurkdom again: *We* know but do any of the teachers know? Maybe only DA members know that others can also produce a Patronus? Professor Tofty, as you said, knew about Harry's Patronus because of Tiberius Ogden. (I also had the idea that Ogden and Marchbanks were those who waved at DD during Harry's hearing so they would know from his own testimony. More than quite possibly wrong on that point.) And, as it seems...I only say seems...the students did their practical exams in alphabetical order, Cho and Hermione would long since have been finished so we don't know if they were asked to produce a Patronus. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From submarimon15 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 08:52:36 2004 From: submarimon15 at yahoo.com (Mike) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 08:52:36 -0000 Subject: Phineas Nigellus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106345 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eeyore5497" wrote: > Has anybody noticed in OoP p. 826, 828 that Phineas Nigellus which is > Sirius' Great Great Grandfather, first of all has a different last > name (not Black, how can that be?) & that it is stated #1- p. 826 that > Phineas does not believe that Sirius the last of the Blacks is dead > and #2 on p.828 it is stated that he still had not returned to his > portrait in Dumbledore's Study. Why would she state that he did not > return if it wasn't significant? Did she forget, I don't think so... > Why didn't he come back? Did he find something? Mike: Well, he's not really the "last of the Blacks", just the last Male child. Both Bellatrix and Narcissa had the surname of Black before they were married. Even then I don't think that only those two are left. I'm fairly certain that we'll learn more about Sirius' supposed dead brother, even if it's just more background information on what he did. Maybe Phineas is in Malfoy Manor? I doubt however that the Malfoys would leave his portrait up if he had one there when he is forced to serve Headmaster Dumbledore. From n.crins at planet.nl Thu Jul 15 08:56:00 2004 From: n.crins at planet.nl (niekycrins) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 08:56:00 -0000 Subject: Prefects and points In-Reply-To: <40F64A66.29977.2D103A@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106346 nieky wrote: > > In my OOTP p.597 Ernie says to Malfoy "you can't take points from > > fellow prefects". So prefects can take points from other students, > > not from other prefects. Members of the Inquisitorial Squad can dock > > points from prefects. shaun hately replied: > Could you please quote the lines around that, so people can find it > (page numbers differ between different editions). If it's the > conversation it sounds like, if your book says that we may have a > discrepancy between editions - I just want to see if that has > happened. nieky replied: First, I am so sorry, I meant page 551 of OOTP, the new 2004 Bloomsbury pocket edition, they probably made a correction: "You can't take points from fellow prefects, Malfoy, said Ernie at once. 'I know prefects can't dock points from each other', sneered Malfoy. Crabbe and Goyle sniggered. 'But members of the Inquisitorial Squad-'" Nieky From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 10:20:00 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 10:20:00 -0000 Subject: Patronus at DADA OWL (was Re: Harry's Future...) In-Reply-To: <000a01c46a48$a3f887e0$85c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106347 I, Del, wrote : > "Nobody else was given a chance to grab extra points in their DADA > OWL by producing a Patronus, Cathy Drolet answered : > *We* know but do any of the teachers know? Maybe only DA members > know that others can also produce a Patronus? Del replies : I'm of the opinion that only the DA members know that Cho and Hermione can produce a Patronus. I hardly see how that information could have reached the teachers, much less the examiners. But in a way, it only makes things worse :-) A school examination is specifically aimed at testing students on the curriculum, not on what they might have learned otherwise. So favouring one specific student because the examiner happens to know what this student knows on top of the curriculum is particularly unfair towards the other students who have learned other things out of class but whose accomplishments have not been made public. But as I said, I don't care in this particular case, because it was worth it, just to bother Umbridge and Draco :-) Del From drednort at alphalink.com.au Thu Jul 15 10:33:19 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:33:19 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Prefects and points In-Reply-To: References: <40F64A66.29977.2D103A@localhost> Message-ID: <40F6EA0F.3941.13D8C81@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 106348 On 15 Jul 2004 at 8:56, niekycrins wrote: > nieky replied: > First, I am so sorry, I meant page 551 of OOTP, the new 2004 > Bloomsbury pocket edition, they probably made a correction: > "You can't take points from fellow prefects, Malfoy, said Ernie at > once. 'I know prefects can't dock points from each other', sneered > Malfoy. Crabbe and Goyle sniggered. 'But members of the > Inquisitorial Squad-'" Thanks nieky, That certainly does seem to be a correction. My copy which I got the day the book came out (Australian printing of the Bloomsbury) reads: "'It's only teachers who can dock points from houses, Malfoy,' said Ernie at once. 'Yeah, we're prefects too, remember?' snarled Ron. 'I know prefects can't dock points, Weasel King,' sneered Malfoy. Crabbe and Goyle sniggered. 'But members of the Inquisitorial Squad-'" This seems a fairly substantial change. If it's a correction, I'm surprised JKR didn't remember making it in replying on her page (unless someone made an unauthorised correction, or maybe there were enough corrections that she forgot about some). But it's not only a correction - they've taken out the insult 'Weasel King'. Makes me wonder what else has been changed. I also wonder who makes the corrections - I'd like to think they are approved by JKR, but I would have expected a correction like this to stick in her head under normal circumstances - and her reply on her webpage would suggest it didn't. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From mayeaux45 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 03:44:03 2004 From: mayeaux45 at yahoo.com (mayeaux45) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 03:44:03 -0000 Subject: "Eleven years" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106349 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > Annette Hamel wrote: > > in the first chapter of SS, where the wizarding-world is all > > atwitter about the happenings at Godric's Hollow, JKR says something > > to the effect of "it was the most exciting thing that had happened > > in eleven years." > > > > So, what happened eleven years before? Am I forgetting some big > > event in the WW? > > Del replies : > I took it to mean that the First War had lasted 11 years. And it *did* > occur to me to wonder if it could have *anything* to do with a kid > entering Hogwarts around the times the Marauders did. > > Del This may sound loopy... but could that kid you mentioned be the HBP? Just an idea. Probably nothing really... ;) Mayeaux45 From dzeytoun at cox.net Thu Jul 15 04:10:59 2004 From: dzeytoun at cox.net (dzeytoun) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 04:10:59 -0000 Subject: Royal Albert Hall Appearance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106350 > SSSusan: > Dzeytoun, I thank you for contributing your recollection of the > context of the quote Vmonte sent in. It will keep me from getting my > hopes up *too* high. > > **BUT STILL!!** I think, in particular, the phrase "[DD] allows > Harry to do an awful lot of things he maybe wouldn't allow another > pupil to do" fits very nicely with all those dangerous encounters, > task-related & skill-testing & ability-advancing "adventures," and > Harry's "I must save the day" actions. In fact, I think the phrase > fits better with those things--*and* with the possibility of the > SS "obstacle course" as being set up for Harry--than it does w/ > describing DD's allowing Harry to encounter DE kids & a sadistic > Snape. I really think that the idea of Dumbledore "testing" Harry through these trials just doesn't hold water for two reasons: 1) In the case of SS/PS, in order for Dumbledore to have set up the "test" with Quirrell, he would have had to have known that Quirrell would go for the stone the moment he (Dumbledore) left Hogwarts. He would have had to have known that Harry, et. al., would choose that moment to approach Hagrid, and to have known what Hagrid would say. He would have to have known how Harry and company would react to what Hagrid said. In short, he would have had to have knowledge available only to Jehovah - or J.K. Rowling. Now, the events in the movie and in the book differ somewhat in detail, however as JKR was intimately involved in the movie process, both versions have her approval and can be considered canonical. In addition, this presumes that Dumbledore is cold-hearted enough to expose his students to a year of Voldemort's presence, as well as stupid enough to risk Voldemort getting his hands on the stone just so he (Dumbledore) could gain some very uncertain benefits in "testing" Harry. In short, in strains credulity much more than the idea that Harry and company could have fought their way alone through the stone's protections. We might say that Dumbledore did not know that Quirrell was hosting Voldemort, but in that case what was the purpose of setting up the "obstacle course" for Harry? Without Voldemort's presence, why would Harry try to reach the stone? Unless Dumbledore intended to manufacture a fake crisis and Voldemort just happened to stumble into the middle of things. Once again this strains credulity more than the idea that they got past the protections unaided. 2) Heroes do unrealistic things and fantasy heroes do extremely unrealistic things. It is unrealistic that three first years got to the stone without help or a previous set-up. But if realism had been invoked and they had been shut out, there would have been no story. As has been said before, JKR is a puppetmaster, the story needs no other. It is unrealistic in second year that Harry finds the Chamber when the adults cannot, and that he defeats the basilisk. But realism would have left Harry dead - end of series. JKR conceived these events, there is no need to hypothesize a manipulative Dumbledore. Realism in third year would have left Harry a gibbering idiot, his soul sucked by Dementors. Realism in fourth year would have left him defeated in the tri-wizard tournament, or dead at Voldemort's hand. But his adventures were not carefully orchestrated by Dumbledore, but by a very real person named J.K. Rowling. Fifth year is the ultimate test. No one that I know of argues that Dumbledore manipulated Harry into going to the MoM. Yet, the events there are the most unrealistic of all. A group of fourteen and fifteen year old students walk in past the defenses of the center of government and into the heart of classified research. Realism would have left them shut out at the door. This same group then proceeds to hold off a group of experienced murderers and the Dark Lord himself, sustaining only relatively minor injuries until help arrives. Realism would have left them dead. Like I say, no one argues that these events were orchestrated by Dumbledore, yet they are the most testing, and the most unrealistic, of all. They have been orchestrated, but by the author, not the Headmaster. It is understandable when faced with seeming contradictions of logic to hypothesize hidden factors and even conspiracies. But that ignores the basic conventions of heroic fantasy fiction. Harry is the hero. He does unrealistic things. That's the way things are in heroic fantasy fiction. Otherwise, we are not dealing with a story by J.K. Rowling, but one by Oliver Stone (just rent JFK if you want to see a master of conspiracy theory at work). Of course, I suppose J.K. Rowling COULD be Oliver Stone in disguise. Now that would be a conspiracy! Dzeytoun From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Thu Jul 15 04:47:36 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 15 Jul 2004 04:47:36 -0000 Subject: Prophesies and Dobby Message-ID: <20040715044736.15432.qmail@webmail6.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106351 - Carol - The Prophecies must be real, or the DoM wouldn't take the trouble to - collect and label and preserve them. And yet the future can't be fixed - and absolute, predetermined, or the element of Choice on which JKR and - Dumbledore place so much emphasis would be meaningless. As I read it, - the Prophecies are ambiguous and can be fulfilled in various ways, but - their fulfillment in *some* form is inevitable Amey: Yes, they don?t have any names, and that?s why we have seen questionmark in the prophesy?s name. By the time prophesy was made, the Dark Lord was only one, nobody else in sight, but the one mentioned in the prophesy was yet to be born. So it was upto LV (in a away) to fulfill the prophesy one way or other. Also, what happened to him whne he tried to do that shows us that prophesies are not always fulfilled, they are not absolute recording of the event. I wonder what happened to the prophesy at the end of PoA, is it recorded and kept in DoM? Who recorded it? How come Dumbledore didn?t know about it? Does it still have the name of Sirius on it or it is now renamed to read Peter?s name? - From: "cincimaelder" - When Harry was teaching DA the Patronus charm in OoP, they seemed to - do better than Harry did on his first shot at it. Both Cho and - Hermione where able to summon an animal, and all Harry was able to - manage at first was some wisps vapor. Amey: They were in a room with no Boggart/ Dementors, harry had a boggart to face. Look how easily he produced the petronus in his OWLs. - Paula: - I really bristled when I read this. Didn't Dobby give Harry the Gillyweed at the last minute to dive into the lake in GoF? But then it occurred to me, wait a minute, of course Lucius would want Harry to survive this task to meet old Voldy in the cemetery. Kneasy, maybe you're on to something... Amey: But by that time, Dobby was free, he was no longer serving Malfoy family. Or was he? Are you saying that Dobby was sent to Hogwarts to keep an eye on Harry and Dumbledore? Hmmm a thought worth pursuing . Amey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mayeaux45 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 05:50:35 2004 From: mayeaux45 at yahoo.com (mayeaux45) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 05:50:35 -0000 Subject: SHHermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106352 Jim Ferer wrote: > Could you point out how she [Hermione] shows her romantic attachment > to Ron? > Carol responds: > Okay, I'm not a shipper, but one quote says it all: > > "Next time there's a ball, ask me before someone else does, and not as > a last resort!" (GoF Am. ed. 432). > > If that's not showing her romantic attachment to Ron (and her > frustration with him for not recognizing his own attraction to her), > I'm a mandrake. Well, okay, that's pushing it a bit far. But to me, > that one remark says all we need to know about Hermione's feelings for > Ron. IMO, this particular statement made by Hermione doesn't really mean anything. I've read this part of GoF over and over and it seems to me that yes, Hermione is showing her frustration, but not necessarily in a *romantic* sense. She's frustrated that Ron can't even realize his *feelings* for her and how stupid he's been acting all night. It might be Hermione's reasoning that if he's going to be acting like a jealous git all night long and be blatantly obvious about his feelings for her, then he should have asked her out to begin with instead of making shallow and superficial comments about other girls prior to the ball. This argument might have been more convincing (even to me) if it weren't for OotP already being out...because there are relatively NO concrete clues to say that Hermione has any feelings for Ron beyond friendship. Like I said before...I would have totally agreed with you a year and half ago. OotP threw a lot of HP fans for a loop! But one thing is for sure even after reading OotP...Ron definitely has strong feelings for Hermione. Whether it goes both ways remains to be seen. I just find it interesting that JKR put in another *potential* love interest for Ron by introducing Luna Lovegood (who I found to be absolutely hilarious by the way)! The way JKR described her and her facial expressions, mood, etc. througout the book gave me a good laugh when it was most definitely needed. Mayeaux45, who has recently been playing with the idea of forming a HP book club in my hometown so we can go over every single detail in person! ;) From sad1199 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 05:59:23 2004 From: sad1199 at yahoo.com (sad1199) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 05:59:23 -0000 Subject: Polyjuiced Hermione In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106353 ---Jason wrote: > > Why does JKR go through the extra words and pages to turn Hermione > > into a cat?... Is this just showing us that polyjuice is only for > humans? > > sad1199 replies: I don't know if there is a connection but, in OotP (American) p.511 there is a mention of a woman at St. Mungo's whose whose entire head was covered in fur and Harry thinks to himself that something similar had happened to Hermione in their second year. From omphale at onetel.com Thu Jul 15 07:24:23 2004 From: omphale at onetel.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 07:24:23 -0000 Subject: Dobby redux/ Riddles diary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106354 Allie wrote: > I have many times wondered the same thing exactly! And not only > that - but how did Lucius Malfoy KNOW what would happen if the diary > made its way to Hogwarts? Dobby called it a "plot" (forgive me if > that's movie contamination) which implies more than one person, > planning, foresight, etc. > > I can't really imagine a heart to heart scene between LV and Malfoy. > ("Lucius, my most trusted of companions, take my diary. If anything > should ever happen to me, send it to Hogwarts and I will be with you > again.") > > I also can't imagine Lucius writing in the diary to find out how to > use it to his benefit. > > I can imagine a lot of things, but I have real trouble with CoS. > Maybe it will become clearer once we have books 6 and 7. > Saraquel writes: No, I disagree, I can well imagine a plot being developed. LV must have lived somewhere before attacking Harry. After his disappearance the DEs would have searched his house, and I can quite imagine that Malfoy would have taken a lot of incriminating stuff to his own house (In CoS he admits to having stuff stashed). The empty diary would have intrigued him I think and he might well have found out about writing in it. naturally he would then have plotted with Riddle/LV and possibly others. I've got more thoughts on this but I have to go to work!! From submarimon15 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 08:23:56 2004 From: submarimon15 at yahoo.com (Mike) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 08:23:56 -0000 Subject: Death Eaters in the DoM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106355 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > As I read your post, I thought I might have an alternate means of > solving the puzzle. > Mike: I had originally looked at the directions given by Lucius to try and determine who the four were that chased Luna's group. I really couldn't determine this because it is rather obvious that Lucius is physically pointing to certain doors. We know the floor plan of the DoM is rather weird with doors at different places that make most of the rooms interconnected. "Go right" and "go left" to me just meant that there happened to be a door to the left and to the right of where the group was standing. However, I think it's safe to assume that other exits didn't have convienent directions such as left and right (other than Straight through there). "Go here" to me indicates the door may have been at a position such as "5 O'clock" rather than an easy place to describe. Steve again: > So give the implied proximity, and that we know Jugson and Dolohov > come into the room as the second pair of DE's, that leaves us with > Macnair and Avery as one pair, and Malfoy and Mulciber as the other. Mike: I'm rather confused by this because there are only 2 pairs of DE's that fight with Harry/Hermione/Neville. The first group is completely un-named and one of them gets their head turned into a baby's. The second group is Antonin Dolohov and Jugson (it's safe to assume the second is Jugson). When you say "Macnair and Avery as one pair with Malfoy and Mulciber as another" that's already two pairs, where do Dolohov and Jugson fit in? Like I also mentioned in the original post I made, if Lucius had actually fought Harry/Hermione/Neville he would have taunted them or done something else to make Harry recognize him. Steve again: > I too was under the assumption that Avery was small, but I search for > references to him in both GoF and OotP, and couldn't actually find a > description of him. Then I thought perhaps I had mistaken the > description of Rookwood in Harry's 'Voldemort dream' for Avery who > enters the room when Rookwood leaves, while Rookwood's posture is > described as 'cowering', but his overal stature in not described. So, > no chance of confusing the two. Mike: You're right! I too just poured over GoF and OotP and found no description of Avery. I'm not sure why I believed that he couldn't be large and muscular, but I just don't see someone like that blubbering away at LV's feet in the Graveyard. This is rather stereotypical of me, however. The only place where I found someone who may have been Avery was during the Lestrange/Crouch Jr. trial in the pensieve as the fourth man. "The Dementors placed each of the four people in the four chairs with chained arms which now stood on the dungeon floor. There was a thickset man who stared blankly up at Crouch, a thinner and more nervous looking man, who's eyes were darting around the crowd..." GoF pg 516, Canadian Paperback. I'm not sure if you've read the posts that were around a few days ago about Avery being this fourth nervous man, who sold out the Lestranges and Crouch Jr. to not go to Azkaban, but this sounds plausible. I don't see Rodolphus Lestrange as someone who would be this nervous, especially after being married to someone as psychotic as Bellatrix, so I believe that he is the "thickset man". The arguements for Avery being the other man and his apologies in the Graveyard scene (selling out the Lestranges?) have been made in those other topics so I wont really bother going over them in detail here, but all in all there is really no conclusive evidence to his size and build. The babyheaded DE could been one of the following people: Mulciber, Crabbe, Rabastan or Avery. It cannot be Rodolphus Lestrange because if Bellatrix had been there (she was already unmasked, and even then is easily recognizable), we'd have known. We do not know anything about Mulciber other than the fact that he was an Imperius specialist (GoF Ch. "The Pensieve"), however the DE who gets knocked into the Time jar was trying to AK Hermione... doesn't prove anything, but I found it interesting. We know that Crabbe fits the description, we know absolutely nothing about Rabastan and we have both assumed that Avery is thin built (we both seemed to assume this despite the fact there is no canon available). Well, with our luck JKR will make it end up being Rabastan since we know absolutely nothing about him and thus no one will care. Anyways, any further insights into this would be appreciated. Mike From eleanor at dreamvine.org.uk Thu Jul 15 08:31:16 2004 From: eleanor at dreamvine.org.uk (iamvine) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 08:31:16 -0000 Subject: Harry's future... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106356 Pippin: > > You remember correctly: > > http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/1999/1099-connectiontr > ansc.html > > Well, because all your kids said `hello' so nicely in the > background there, I am going to give you information I haven't > given anyone else and I will tell you that one of the characters, > one of Harry's classmates, though it's not Harry himself, > does end up a teacher at Hogwarts. Eleanor: What a shame. I really liked that theory. Can I jump at straws and interpret "end up" as "teach for a career", which would still let Harry take the job for just one year? Or is this like believing Tom Riddle is the HBP even after JKR has said it isn't Voldemort? I fear so. Drat. It would have been so nice for the "new DADA teacher every year" plot device and the "running out of candidates" thread to have some ultimate point besides being a vehicle to introduce new characters. Or does it have one? Any ideas, anyone? Eleanor From elrond at paradise.net.nz Thu Jul 15 08:43:06 2004 From: elrond at paradise.net.nz (Michael Chance) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:43:06 +1200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who would love Snape? & Blackmail? References: Message-ID: <003801c46a47$e6f2a360$09464fcb@locxvcym> No: HPFGUIDX 106357 From: "sad1199" > In an earlier post a quote from JKR was mentioned and part of it > was "Who would (or could) love Snape?" Here's my idea of who would > love Snape: She would be a very strong patient witch. It mighten be a witch you know :) After reading your post I suddenly thought of something else Snape couple could be blackmailed over, after the shreking shack incident, (re earlier posts over the last couple of days). If homosexuals were treated as poorly as other minotries in the wizarding world.... (Mind you, that sends me down another chain of thought invoving why exactly he was going to the shrieking shark in the first place, which I'm not impling right now :) ) It's just a thought though :) Michael From rotedrache at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 09:05:30 2004 From: rotedrache at yahoo.com (rotedrache) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:05:30 -0000 Subject: Pureblood Vs. Halfblood (was Dudley as HBP??!!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106358 Jake summarised:> > > A pure-blood is someone with direct blood lineage on both sides of > their immediate family (pure-bloods will, by the way, attempt to > prove they are more pure than other pure-bloods--Ernie and Malfoy-- > because the extent of your purity is a symbol of presige). > > A half-blood is someone with at least a drop of old-wizarding blood. > Some half-bloods, of course, will attempt to claim purity. Others > will be labeled so thin in old-blood as to be out of the lineage. But > any amount of blood counts and, in an aristocracy, would be useful. > > A muggle-blood has no connection to the old blood. The only way to > move up (once again, this is an oppressive framework benefitting > those at the top--not surprising since it's their framework) is to > buy into the blood (through marriage). The muggle-blood that marries > a pure or half, of course, remains a muggle-blood, but their children > will then move up in blood status. > > What would happen if two muggle-bloods had a child? Nothing (in terms > of blood). Think about it: If two rich merchants had a child, the > child wouldn't suddenly become royality. To become royality, in an > aristocracy, you have to merge with the lineage itself. > Tilly adds: I think the difference is that I see muggle-born wizards as analogous to newly created nobles rather than simply rich merchants. (Granted most of the time the newly created nobles were rich merchants that were helping to bail out the king). From the point of view of the Old nobility, they were little more than trumped-up commoners. They also lacked the "proof of nobility", but they were nobles. Equally their children. Granted, they didn't have the same prestige as someone who was part of the old nobility but they were "noble-born". Similarly the child of two muggle-born wizards is not "muggle-born". Can't be. Both parents are wizards. Equally, they are far from being purebloods. So that leaves "halfblood". (I know the term doesn't really fit, but "impure-blood" sounds like someone has tried to poison them.) I think what complicates the matter is that there are really two different viewpoints in the WW on the matter. There is the Malfoy/Black viewpoint which is the whole oppressive, keep the bloodline pure and the more reasonable Weasley/Dumbledore view. Then of course there are squibs, where do they fit in? I mean the son of a squib (from a pureblooded family, of course) and a muggle. Would he be muggle-born or a halfblood? :) Tilly From mhbobbin at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 10:32:23 2004 From: mhbobbin at yahoo.com (mhbobbin) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 10:32:23 -0000 Subject: : Polyjuice Hermione Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106359 ---Jason wrote: > > Why does JKR go through the extra words and pages to turn Hermione > > into a cat?... Is this just showing us that polyjuice is only for > > humans? mhbobbin writes: Certainly to add humor and variety to the story. She also makes Hermione (the insufferable know-it-all) human by turning her into a cat. Hermione erred that time--it is not often she does. But on an aside--- But isn't it interesting that the character who we most associate with cats is Arabella Figg, whose house smells of cabbage--a characteristic of polyjuice potion, and who possibly has a polyjuice relationship with the mysterious Perkins who works with Mr. Weasley at the MoM. Mr. Weasley borrowed the tent from Perkins that seemed to be Mrs. Figg's flat. mhbobbin From mhbobbin at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 10:21:25 2004 From: mhbobbin at yahoo.com (mhbobbin) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 10:21:25 -0000 Subject: Phineas Nigellus Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106360 "eeyore5497" wrote Has anybody noticed in OoP p. 826, 828 that Phineas Nigellus which is Sirius' Great Great Grandfather, first of all has a different last name (not Black, how can that be?) (Snip) mhbobbin writes: Nigellus is from the latin word for Black -- I think that's just another Rowling joke. By taking the odd twist with this character-- having him worry about the last of the Blacks when he has a different last name, Rowling is up to something. I've always assumed that Phineas had only one daughter who married a Black. Wouldn't we all like to get a closer look at that tapestry at Grimauld Place? "eeyore5497" wrote (snip) Phineas does not believe that Sirius the last of the Blacks is dead on p.828 it is stated that he still had not returned to his portrait in Dumbledore's Study. Why would she state that he did not return if it wasn't significant? Did she forget, I don't think so... Why didn't he come back? Did he find something? mhbobbin writes: Interesting indeed. How is Phineas going to react when he discovers that grt granddaughter Bellatrix killed "the last of the Blacks"? For all his nasty sarcasm etc., does Phineas care more about Sirius or Bellatrix? My guess is Sirius. I think Phineas is one of the more intriguing new characters in OOtP. We don't know enough yet but I am guessing he's got a key role to play in the final books. mhbobbin From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 15 12:17:29 2004 From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:17:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHHermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040715121729.22373.qmail@web25309.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106361 delwynmarch wrote: > "Next time there's a ball, ask me before someone else does, and not > as a last resort!" (GoF Am. ed. 432). Udderpd commented : > I believe that Hermione would have gone to the Ball with either Harry > or Ron if either of them had asked her early on. Del replies : Let me nitpick, by saying that she didn't mention Harry. She said that pointedly to Ron and Ron alone. Harry had entered the room by that time, but she didn't round on Harry to shout at him too. Assuming that she included Harry in her statement is just that : an assumption. Truth is : she told *Ron* that she would have accepted his offer if he had done it properly and in time. Udderpd wrote : > Hermione is distracted and mainly concerned with a letter to Viktor > when Ron says to Harry, "Are you that bad at kissing?" > Harry answers "Dunno, maybe I am." > Hermione says without thinking "Of course your not," is this truth > said unguardedly? Del replies : I don't understand you. How could it be any kind of personal truth concerning Harry ? If Hermione had already kissed Harry, I think we would know. If she had only dreamed of kissing Harry as you pretend, then it wouldn't be the truth : it would only be hopeful thinking. However, it is a *general* truth : nobody is such a bad kisser as to make someone else cry. Hermione has got a dorm-full of girls around her every night, and I'm ready to bet that most of them (including herself ?) have already been kissed and discuss that to no end quite often. Udderpd wrote : > "How do you know?" said Ron very sharply. > Does this bring her to her senses because shortly after Hermione says > two things both to Ron: > "Ron, you are the most insensitive wart I have ever had the > misfortune to meet." then less than half a page later. "Just because > you have the emotional range of a teaspoon doesn't mean we all have." Del replies : I happen to like Ron quite a lot (in case nobody had noticed :-), and I felt *exactly* like Hermione. She just stated our common opinion in a much more elaborate (and much funnier) way than I would have. The comments Ron made were simply *appalling* !! Even if Ron had been her official boy-friend, I'm dead certain Hermione would have scolded him quite harshly for saying what he said. Udderpd wrote : > I has been suggested that these are terms of enderment from Hermione > to Ron, then I will ask what will she have to say to tell him I am > not interested in you romanticly. Del replies : State it clearly, any time he acts jealous ? "Ron, you're not my boyfriend and you will never be, so stop acting like you own me or something." She *has* noticed Ron's jealousy, and she never has any problem telling Ron what she thinks of him. So why should she be shy on that subject ? It's Harry she doesn't know how to handle, not Ron. If she wanted him off her back, she would take the appropriate measures, I have no doubt about that. The fact that she endures his jealousy seems to indicate that she doesn't mind it. The *only* thing she doesn't tolerate is when Ron belittles Viktor, and that's quite normal : Viktor is at least a very good friend, she'll defend him from anyone just like she defends Harry. But other than that, she doesn't mind Ron's jealousy. Maybe she even... enjoys it ;-) ? Udderpd again Hi Del Hermione is a bright girl I think that we can all agree on that, I would guess her IQ at 145 or so. I agree that she would have to tell Ron in words of one syllable what she thinks of him for it to get through his thick head and I believe that she would do this if she fancied him. She also knows that if she doesn't fancy him and she tells Ron exactly what she thinks of him, his self centered jealousy will blow the trio apart and she is not willing to do this. You intermate that she doesn't understand Harry, I believe that she does and she is willing to keep her feelings for Harry on the back burner until Harry is ready. And she probably knows that this wont be until after the death of Voldemort. I would be the last person to deny that Ron has feelings for or fancied Hermione, but he must have she is one of his two best friends and he doesn' know any other girls. The only other females he interacts with socialy are his mother and sister and his sister he is trying to turn into a female version of himself, by forbiding her to talk socialy with boys. It would be very easy to argue that his childishness after the yule ball is him trying to treat Hermione the same way as he treats Ginny and she's not having any of it. She wont bring Harry into the arguement first it is not him being a prat and second it could only cause a rift and would not cure anything. Let us not forget that Victor is Jealous of Harry not Ron Hermione talked constantly of Harry when she was with Victor. Ron needs to chat socialy with a lot more girls and then he might learn about himself and (as much as any mere male can) about girls. TTFN Udder PenDragon ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dzeytoun at cox.net Thu Jul 15 04:24:01 2004 From: dzeytoun at cox.net (dzeytoun) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 04:24:01 -0000 Subject: FF: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106362 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "huntergreen_3" > Valky: Harry is important also, > but Snape is and has always been a least of his worries. Like a > niggling itch that you can scratch occassionally but really it's > just an annoyance. A nothing really. That certainly does not seem to be the situation at the end of OOTP. JKR went to a great deal of trouble to set up that "I hate Snape and will never forgive him," scene. I wouldn't say that means Snape will be a nothing to Harry in the ensuing books. > > But, Snape and Harry have an awful lot in common. Dumbledore sees > the connection and has done from the start. I think his higher > purpose is to protect and care for both of them, like they were his > own children. Yes, I do think that is probably the case. In which case I > think were DD to punish Snape for what he's done to Harry the > consequences would be worse. How so? If an older child is abusing a younger one, it is a very poor parent indeed who does not punish the older child? I have to admit I am totally confused by your comment. > It would be far more cruel to Snape to punish him and discard him > than it is to allow him and Harry to bicker, despite that Harry is > quite innocent. Who says punishing Snape necessarily means discarding him? For instance for Dumbledore to say, "You have failed in one of the most important tasks I have ever given you. I will hold you responsible if any more grief arises over this episode," would be humiliating punishment for Snape, but would not entail discarding him. Of course, I suppose it can be said, if you are able to twist your mind around to Snape's point of view which is unhealthy and painful, that he probably finds it infuriating that the Headmaster never punishes Harry for disrespect to his teacher. But as Snape does a good job of that himself, I do think it incumbent on Dumbledore to step in and even the scales. Dzeytoun From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 12:22:08 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:22:08 -0000 Subject: Death Eaters in the DoM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106363 Mike wrote : > The only place where I found someone who may have been Avery was > during the Lestrange/Crouch Jr. trial in the pensieve as the fourth > man. > > "The Dementors placed each of the four people in the four chairs > with chained arms which now stood on the dungeon floor. There was a > thickset man who stared blankly up at Crouch, a thinner and more > nervous looking man, who's eyes were darting around the crowd..." > GoF pg 516, Canadian Paperback. Del replies : In OoP, UK hardback, p.107, Sirius explains : "Bellatrix and her husband Rodolphus came in with Barty Crouch junior. Rodolphus's brother Rabastan was with them too." The fourth man was Rabastan Lestrange. Del From dzeytoun at cox.net Thu Jul 15 04:35:53 2004 From: dzeytoun at cox.net (dzeytoun) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 04:35:53 -0000 Subject: FF: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106364 > HunterGreen: > Not really. I was more curious to those who think his teaching > methods are horrible and those who think there might be some reason > that Dumbledore is allowing it, what do you think should be done > about it? Personally, I don't think anything *needs* to be done about > it, because the situation is not spinning out of control; meaning > that the students are learning, and no one is getting scarred by his > insults (just my opinion only, I don't want this to spin into another > Snape debate). For those who *disagree*, what should be done to him? > Well, I agree that nothing can probably be done about Snape for political reasons, although I agree with Alla that he should be removed from Hogwarts the moment his services as a spy are no longer needed. However, something probably could be done for his students. That is Neville in particular, who even much more than Harry has never had a chance in Potions. I would be very pleased if, should Neville scrape by with at least an A on his OWL, he were offered the chance to study for a Potions NEWT under another tutor. I am sure there are other students for whom this would be a fair policy as well. Indeed, I think much of the problem many of us have with Snape is that he is the ONLY option for taking potions at Hogwarts and students have to take him EVERY year (a mathematical impossibility, by the way, as there aren't enough hours in the week for Snape to teach that many potions sections). If students had another option for fulfilling their potions studies, or if they only had to endure Snape say two years out of the seven, then most of the objections would dry up. So perhaps a very good answer to what should be done about Severus is that Dumbledore should hire another potions teacher in addition to Snape. Dzeytoun From rebekarg at yahoo.com.br Thu Jul 15 11:29:24 2004 From: rebekarg at yahoo.com.br (=?iso-8859-1?q?Rebeka=20Gomes?=) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 08:29:24 -0300 (ART) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cousins by marriage ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040715112924.79667.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106365 --- delwynmarch escreveu: --------------------------------- Sirius says he and Molly are cousins by marriage. What does that mean? To me, that would mean that one of the two married the other's cousin. But that's obviously impossible. So what does it mean ? >> Rebeka: I've always assumed that Arthur Weasley was his cousin (once the Weasleys are pureblood), and Molly became Sirius' cousin when she married Arthur. ===== ~Rebeka From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Thu Jul 15 12:22:55 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 08:22:55 -0400 Subject: Patronus at DADA OWL Message-ID: <001301c46a66$75460cb0$37c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 106366 I, Del, wrote : > "Nobody else was given a chance to grab extra points in their DADA > OWL by producing a Patronus, Cathy Drolet answered : > *We* know but do any of the teachers know? Maybe only DA members > know that others can also produce a Patronus? Del replies : "I'm of the opinion that only the DA members know that Cho and Hermione can produce a Patronus. I hardly see how that information could have reached the teachers, much less the examiners." Cathy a.k.a. DuffyPoo I guess my problem here is that I'm not making myself clear. We don't know that Cho and Hermione - the only two we *know* can produce a Patronus - were not given the chance to grab *extra points* because we didn't see them do their practical exam. If the examiners did know, and that's a big if, that others could produce a Patronus, maybe they were asked too, we just don't know because we weren't there. We don't know what exactly they were asked. Old Professor Marchbanks, who had seen DD do things with a wand she had never seen before, could have asked everyone she tested to show them everything they knew. We just don't know because the only exam we are really privvy to his Harry's. And, after all it was only one point in question "I heard, from my dear friend Tiberius Ogden, that you can produce a Patronus? For *a* bonus point...?" [Professor Tofty speaking there.] Fudge, himself, in PA said "Ah, well, Snape...Harry Potter, you now...we've all got a bit of a blind spot where he's concerned.' Maybe poor old Professor Tofty thought Harry could use all the points he could get. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dzeytoun at cox.net Thu Jul 15 04:49:09 2004 From: dzeytoun at cox.net (dzeytoun) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 04:49:09 -0000 Subject: FF: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106367 Boyd said: > I hope Snape stays the same pain-in-the-derrier that he is now. After > all, he's tried to save Harry numerous times and demonstrated his > loyalties to the OoP just as often, yet Harry suspects him of being > ESE from the moment they meet. And with extremely good reason. Snape WAS a death eater, after all. > > If the rest of the WW should be treating other races, mixed-bloods and > muggles better, then shoudln't Harry try maybe a little to see past > unimportant personality quirks, too? Sorry, but I just can't see being petty, cruel, emotionally abusive, and arrogant as being "unimportant personality quirks." > > I think it's actually Harry who will be forced by circumstances in the > remaining books to finally trust Snape, warts and all, almost as a > final lesson in learning to forgive others for their faults and > recognizing their true intentions. Yes, but Snape should also be forced to own up to his mistakes and make remedy for his abuse. > Of the two, I actually think Snape is holding up his end of the deal > quite a bit better than Harry. Let Harry apologize, too, I say. Well, I have no problem with Harry apologizing TOO, as long as it is TOO (as in Snape apologizing). > > Besides, then JKR could turn the tables on us one last time by having > Snape betray the Order at the end, sacrificing DD to get back on good > terms with his *true* master. ;) I doubt it. I rather suspect Snape will die before the end. I think we will discover why Dumbledore trusts him, but I don't know that it will be something that will endear him to Harry or most readers. In the end I suspect Severus will be one of those people shuffled off with a nice headstone that nobody ever reads because nobody cares enough to visit the grave - except Dumbledore and maybe Harry now and then if Snape does something REALLY spectacular. Dzeytoun From eleanor at dreamvine.org.uk Thu Jul 15 12:17:50 2004 From: eleanor at dreamvine.org.uk (iamvine) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:17:50 -0000 Subject: Cousins by marriage ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106368 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > Sirius says he and Molly are cousins by marriage. What does that mean > ? To me, that would mean that one of the two married the other's > cousin. But that's obviously impossible. So what does it mean ? I've got "cousins" who aren't really related to me at all - they are the children of my uncle's brother-in-law - my real cousins' cousins on the other side of their family. We meet fairly often at family gatherings and I used to inherit their cast-off clothes. Maybe Sirius and Molly are related like that. e.g. Sirius had an aunt who married a Prewett (Molly's maiden name). Said Prewett had a brother who was Molly's father. Eleanor From sherriola at earthlink.net Thu Jul 15 12:44:12 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 06:44:12 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] "M**blood" and handicap In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <005501c46a69$6edc2cd0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 106369 Jocelyn answered : > I think it's more like using 'nigger' or 'kike'. Not just the fact, > but a judgement of inferiority as well. Muggle is a value-neutral > word. Mudblood is an insult. Del replies : I don't think it's "just" an insult. Crowds don't react so strongly and so massively to insults, even the worst ones. But when Draco uses the word, *every single* wizard-born kid reacts strongly and gets on Draco's case. That doesn't remind of a crowd's reaction to an insult. It reminds of a crowd's reaction to a *taboo*. Del Sherry replies Del, I don't know if you've ever lived in the states, but the word "nigger" is extremely taboo here. I was born in the late 50's. I am white. I was brought up to believe that word is about the filthiest lowest thing a white person can say, and that's not even getting the point across, because filthy and low implies that it could be used as a swear word. What I mean is that it is absolutely taboo. It is a word that brings back the horror of slavery, a terrible stain on my country's history, and genuinely decent people in this country don't say it and would be shocked if others did. Believe me, the people I know would be truly horrified to hear a white person use that word in referring to a black person. They would react just like wizards do to the word mud blood. But this is difficult to convey to people who haven't lived with this. I had the same instinctive reaction to mud blood as the wizards! By the way, I love the post about mud bloods being regarded as disabled, and I intend to respond directly to that concept later. Sherry G From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Thu Jul 15 12:29:26 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 08:29:26 -0400 Subject: Death Eaters in the DOM Message-ID: <001c01c46a67$5e7c0ba0$37c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 106370 Mike said: "5 DE's make it to the end of the battle to trap the students in the room with the Veil. The people present here are: Lucius Malfoy (1), Bellatrix Lestrange (3), Anotin Dolohov (5), MacNair (9) and Algernon Rookwood (11)." Cathy a.k.a. DuffyPoo now: I think there were 10 DE's in the Death Chamber: "He [Harry] looked up and saw the five who had been in the Brain Room descending towards him, while as many more emerged through other doorways and began leaping from bench to bench towards him." The only five we *know* are there are the five you named above. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ryokas at hotmail.com Thu Jul 15 11:18:29 2004 From: ryokas at hotmail.com (kizor0) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 11:18:29 -0000 Subject: Patronus at DADA OWL (was Re: Harry's Future...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106371 cincimaelder: > The reason this bothers me though, is that everyone was so impressed > that Harry could produce a corporeal Patronus. > "Impressive," said Madam Bones, staring down at him, "a true Patronus > at that age...very impressive indeed." OoP US version, pg 141. > So I guess it just seemed to me to be very unusual that a student > could do it. I had the impression that Harry was VERY exceptional for > producing a corporeal patronus at 15, where 17 doesn't > seem that much older and certainly not 16. I got the impression that Bones was referring to how Harry produced a corporeal Patronus on third grade, which he had mentioned about five seconds before. I could be wrong, of course. Cathy: > And, as it seems...I only say seems...the students did their > practical exams in alphabetical order, Cho and Hermione would long > since have been finished so we don't know if they were asked to > produce a Patronus. To nitpick, wasn't Cho a sixth-grader? That'd mean she was *long* since finished. :-) Come to think of it, there's no figures of how many of the DA were actually fifth-graders (or I suppose there are, but you'd have to be someone who's not me to sort through 27 students) which means far less potential for Patronus injustice. Del: > But in a way, it only makes things worse :-) A school examination is > specifically aimed at testing students on the curriculum, not on what > they might have learned otherwise. I'm not so sure about that. Another way of looking at things is that while small ones may stick to details, a large school examination is aimed at testing students on their knowledge and skill about a subject, and the curriculum is aimed at training the students in those two things as well as possible. For instance, reading several dozen books in English, conversing in English a lot, and similar geeky things were not a part of my English class in any way, but when the massive end-of-school six-hour English exam came they got me well within the best five percent of the graduates without particularily trying (a fact that I'm now becoming rather embarassed by). > But as I said, I don't care in this particular case, because it was > worth it, just to bother Umbridge and Draco :-) I have agree completely on this point. -- Kizor, grateful for the poor Finnish translation of Terry Pratchett's books From omphale at onetel.com Wed Jul 14 23:00:48 2004 From: omphale at onetel.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 23:00:48 -0000 Subject: Sorting Hat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106372 > xtremesk8ergurl asked: > Another question I have, is if Slytherin and its house is all > dark magic, then why do they have a Slytherin house? > > Carol responds: > > The short answer is that most Slytherins are chosen not for their > interest in Dark magic but for their ambition and cunning, traits > valued by Salazar Slytherin but not in themselves necessarily evil. Saraquel responds: I totally agree with Carol's (hugely snipped) response, and add my own two knuts worth - even wizard polititians have to get an education somewhere! From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Thu Jul 15 12:05:03 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 08:05:03 -0400 Subject: Prefects and House Points Message-ID: <000a01c46a63$f73c7ea0$37c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 106373 nieky replied: > First, I am so sorry, I meant page 551 of OOTP, the new 2004 > Bloomsbury pocket edition, they probably made a correction: > "You can't take points from fellow prefects, Malfoy, said Ernie at > once. 'I know prefects can't dock points from each other', sneered > Malfoy. Crabbe and Goyle sniggered. 'But members of the > Inquisitorial Squad-'" Shaun Hately said: "This seems a fairly substantial change. If it's a correction, I'm surprised JKR didn't remember making it in replying on her page (unless someone made an unauthorised correction, or maybe there were enough corrections that she forgot about some). But it's not only a correction - they've taken out the insult 'Weasel King'. Makes me wonder what else has been changed. I also wonder who makes the corrections - I'd like to think they are approved by JKR, but I would have expected a correction like this to stick in her head under normal circumstances - and her reply on her webpage would suggest it didn't." Cathy now - (who will call herself DuffyPoo after this as there is another Cathy here already, sorry.) And certainly clears up the controversy. Or causes more controversy, I'm not sure. However, with the new edition, it seems clear that Prefects, including Percy, are well within their rights to take House Points. Problem solved. I still don't understand the answer, though, on JKR's website. Interesting. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aandj at labyrinth.net.au Thu Jul 15 13:05:17 2004 From: aandj at labyrinth.net.au (Jocelyn Grunow) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 00:05:17 +1100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] "M**blood" and handicap In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106374 on 15/7/2004 5:38 PM, delwynmarch at delwynmarch at yahoo.com wrote: > > Jocelyn answered : >> I think it's more like using 'nigger' or 'kike'. Not just the fact, >> but a judgement of inferiority as well. Muggle is a value-neutral >> word. Mudblood is an insult. > > Del replies : > I don't think it's "just" an insult. Crowds don't react so strongly > and so massively to insults, even the worst ones. But when Draco uses > the word, *every single* wizard-born kid reacts strongly and gets on > Draco's case. That doesn't remind of a crowd's reaction to an insult. > > It reminds of a crowd's reaction to a *taboo*. Yes that makes more sense. I was in kind of a hurry when I posted, but by using those words to compare to mudblood I was trying to convey the seriousness of the insult - like a taboo. I mean, it was actually quite difficult to type the insults I was using! These are words one simply _does not_ say. If I was standing next to a friend who was called these words in public I would feel ill that she had been called that, and react extremely strongly. Which I think (correct me if I'm wrong) is what you were saying above. Jocelyn From greatraven at hotmail.com Thu Jul 15 13:13:13 2004 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:13:13 -0000 Subject: The Virtues of Hufflepuff House and Cedric Diggory (Was: Snape and . . .cour In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106375 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > > HunterGreen: > > The sad thing is that Cedric was always looked upon as such > > a "surprise" in a way to the Hufflepuff house (which as its said over > > and over again in GoF, hardly ever gets any glory). The general > > attitude in the books is that being a Hufflepuff is nothing to be > > proud of. And I wonder how much of that is JKR's intention. > > Del replies : > Well, she's the one who had a kid (Neville ?) say that "Hufflepuff > wouldn't be too bad", and Hagrid call the Hufflepuffs "a load of > duffers" (might not be exact quotes, but I'm sure I'm not very far), > right back in PS/SS. > > Then in CoS, Ernie's bunch of Hufflepuffs appear quite stupid, coward > and even ridiculous for believing so easily that Harry is the Heir of > Slytherin and for making up huge stories about Harry and Justin. > > Then of course there's simply the way the few Hufflepuffs we know are > described : Justin the bubbling Muggle quasi-aristocrat or obvious > queer figure, Ernie the New Percy, Hannah Abbott and her pigtails. > > And of course Cedric "pretty boy" Diggory. We readers might be aware > that Cedric is really a neat person, but Harry's (and the other > Gryffindors, in particular the twins) constant dislike of him is > *bound* to have an effect on our judgement after a while. > > And then in OoP, we get Zacharias Smith ! > > So yes, I think it is quite obvious that JKR intended for us to have > little consideration for the Hufflepuffs. Now, why ever she would do > that, I have no idea, but the proofs are there. > > Del Sue: What a pity - if you're a Hufflepuff, you're probably a "leftover", if you're a Slytherin, you're probably nasty and beyond redemption... Not really the message we want kids to get when reading, is it? I suspect young readers mostly want to be in Gryffindor. Personally, I suspect I'd have been one of the nerds in Ravenclaw. :-) From joj at rochester.rr.com Thu Jul 15 13:02:03 2004 From: joj at rochester.rr.com (coolbeans3131) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:02:03 -0000 Subject: Polyjuiced Hermione In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106376 "Jason" > Why does JKR go through the extra words and pages to turn Hermione > into a cat? The boys didnt find out any information or get into any > trouble that would have benefited Hermione not being a part of. > Nothing comes of her stint in the hospital wing. I agree. This scene has always stood out to me. Not because it's in the book, but because it's in the movie. (We know JKR has told them to leave certain scenes in) It's easy for JKR to write any fantastcal thing she wants. It's a book. That's not so for the movie. They went through a lot of time and expense to shoot that scene that way. They could have left Hermione out of that scene (Malfoy, Crabbe!Ron and Goyle!Harry) in many different and easier ways. The fact they went through all that trouble for basically nothing makes me wonder. It also reminds me of Ron being left out of the Forbidden forest scene in PS/SS. It didn't seem to change anything having Neville go instead of Ron, but I did read one of the changes the editors wanted her to make to SS/PS was to add more Neville. They really liked him, (I love him myself :D) Joj From squeakinby at tds.net Thu Jul 15 13:48:21 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:48:21 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Polyjuiced Hermione In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40F68B25.1030701@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 106377 coolbeans3131 wrote: > "Jason" > >>Why does JKR go through the extra words and pages to turn Hermione >>into a cat? The boys didnt find out any information or get into any >>trouble that would have benefited Hermione not being a part of. >>Nothing comes of her stint in the hospital wing. And she's there for so long! Three weeks, I think it was. Everyone who goes to the hospital wing is stuck there. You get conked on the head, you're out for a week. Oliver Wood. Harry. Ron. In America, you'd be an outpatient. They wouldn't want you hanging around getting underfoot, decrying the Jello. Maybe Madam Pomfrey is lonely. Jem From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 13:51:42 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:51:42 -0000 Subject: SHHermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss In-Reply-To: <20040715121729.22373.qmail@web25309.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106378 Udderpd wrote : > I agree that she would have to tell Ron in words of one syllable what > she thinks of him for it to get through his thick head and I believe > that she would do this if she fancied him. Del replies : Uh ? You lost me there. Why would Hermione tell Ron in no uncertain terms to get lost (which is basically what I suggested) if she *fancied* him ? If she fancies him, she might *not* want to openly talk about it with Ron, especially considering that he doesn't seem ready to face his own feelings. Udderpd wrote : > She also knows that if she doesn't fancy him and she tells Ron > exactly what she thinks of him, his self centered jealousy will blow > the trio apart and she is not willing to do this. Del replies : The only case where Ron's jealousy might be a problem would be if Hermione told him she fancies Harry instead. And we don't know that, no more than we know if she fancies Ron. Both possibilities are just that : possibilities. If Hermione simply doesn't fancy Ron, I see no reason why her telling so should cause any rift in the Trio. Could you explain to me why it would ? Udderpd wrote : > You intermate that she doesn't understand Harry, I believe that she > does and she is willing to keep her feelings for Harry on the back > burner until Harry is ready. And she probably knows that this wont be > until after the death of Voldemort. Del replies : I never said that I think Hermione doesn't understand Harry. She does, almost better than Harry himself most of the time. What I said is that she doesn't always know how to *handle* him in OoP, that's completely different. And I don't see why the fact that Hermione understands Harry should mean that she has feelings for him. Or inversely either : having feelings for Harry wouldn't necessarily mean understanding him. Having feelings for someone and understanding them are two widely different things, unfortunately too rarely connected. Udderpd wrote : > I would be the last person to deny that Ron has feelings for or > fancied Hermione, but he must have she is one of his two best friends > and he doesn' know any other girls. The only other females he > interacts with socialy are his mother and sister and his sister he is > trying to turn into a female version of himself, by forbiding her to > talk socialy with boys. Del replies : Harry's no better. He fell for a pretty face he didn't know, as he discovered when he found himself confronted to the prospect of a whole day in her sole company. Apart from Cho, the only girls he ever talks to are Hermione and Ginny. So according to your own reasoning, even if Harry discovered in himself feelings for either girl, that would be only because he doesn't know anyone else. Harry is just as clueless about love and girls as Ron is. Udderpd wrote : > It would be very easy to argue that his childishness after the yule > ball is him trying to treat Hermione the same way as he treats Ginny > and she's not having any of it. Del replies : I completely disagree. Ron treats Ginny as his little baby girl, and is affronted that anyone could think of pure innocent little virgin angel Ginny as a young *woman*. On the other hand, Ron didn't even want to admit that Hermione was a girl. The two situations couldn't be more different. Udderpd wrote : > Let us not forget that Victor is Jealous of Harry not Ron Hermione > talked constantly of Harry when she was with Victor. Del replies : So ? I agree that one interpretation is indeed that Hermione has feelings for Harry. Another one is that she's not talking about Harry himself, but about his problems, in an attempt to find solutions to them. Yet a third theory is that she doesn't want to betray her feelings for another boy in front of the boy who is taking her out, so she pointedly talks about the boy for whom she has *no* feelings (and yes girls do that sometimes). A fourth is that Viktor is indeed jealous of Harry but for other reasons (Harry is as famous as Viktor, he's as talented as Viktor and he's beating him in the Tournament) so he bristles each time Hermione mentions Harry's name, but he doesn't notice how much she mentions Ron's name because he doesn't consider Ron a threat. A fifth is that he read Rita Skeeter but because he's the over-jealous type he can't bring himself to believe Hermione when she denies everything, and wants to have a talk with Harry anyway. That was just out of the top of my head. I'm sure if I tried I could find several other logical and plausible explanations for Viktor's jealousy. Udderpd wrote : > Ron needs to chat socialy with a lot more girls and then he might > learn about himself and (as much as any mere male can) about girls. Del replies : Considering how clueless he was about Cho, I'd say Harry had better do that too. Del From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 13:44:33 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:44:33 -0000 Subject: FF: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106379 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dzeytoun" wrote: snip. > Sorry, but I just can't see being petty, cruel, emotionally abusive, > and arrogant as being "unimportant personality quirks." Alla: LOL, Dzeytoun! Agreed. Boyd earlier: Let Harry apologize, too, I say. Dzeytoun: > Well, I have no problem with Harry apologizing TOO, as long as it is > TOO (as in Snape apologizing). Alla: Yes, again. Strangely enough, I never doubt that Harry will apologise to Snape at the end. Of course, that is mainly because Harry is supposed to have more forgiving soul than Snape , in other words, metathinking all over the place. I am sure that Harry will wpoligise. Will Snape thought? I would prefer still that Snape be the first one, since he was the one who started all that, but I am not keeping my hopes up. From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Jul 15 14:11:33 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:11:33 -0000 Subject: FF: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106380 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dzeytoun" Valky: > Harry is important also, > > but Snape is and has always been a least of his worries. Like a niggling itch that you can scratch occassionally but really it's just an annoyance. A nothing really. << Dzeytoun: > That certainly does not seem to be the situation at the end of OOTP. JKR went to a great deal of trouble to set up that "I hate Snape and will never forgive him," scene. I wouldn't say that means Snape will be a nothing to Harry in the ensuing books.< I thought it meant that JKR had put the shoe on the other foot. It is now Harry who has an unjust grudge against Snape, not for bullying him or the failure of Occlumency, but for supposedly goading Sirius to leave Grimmauld Place. Dzeytoun: > How so? If an older child is abusing a younger one, it is a very poor parent indeed who does not punish the older child? I have to admit I am totally confused by your comment. < Pippin: Well, that's just it. Snape, though he behaves very childishly, is not a child, and would only resent being treated like one. He would not accept restrictions being placed on him that are not placed on the other teachers, who are free to upbraid their students and favor their own houses if they feel like it. If another adult is abusing your child, you haven't got the right to punish that adult yourself. You either take it to the authorities, or remove your child from the situation. In this situation, Dumbledore is the authority, but by the standards of the WW what Snape is doing is not abusive. IMO, Dumbledore has no right to use his authority against Snape simply because he personally finds Snape's methods distasteful. I think Dumbledore would consider it self-righteous in the extreme--as he says, he has no power to make other men see the truth. Meaning, as McGonagall would put it, that he does have that power, he's just too noble to use it. Dumbledore could, as you suggest, remove Harry and Neville from Snape's classes, but that would also make Harry feel more like a failure and Neville more like a weakling. Besides, Snape isn't just being mean when he threatens Trevor or says he's going to test their antidotes--if Harry and Neville become Aurors or Healers, lives are going to depend on their skills and they will have to be able to function under that kind of pressure. If not, it would be a very good thing if they never went near a cauldron again. I think, too, that if Snape ever understood Harry well enough to offer him a sincere apology, Harry wouldn't need to hear it. Pippin From ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 14:18:36 2004 From: ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com (ohneill_2001) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:18:36 -0000 Subject: Hermione's feelings for Ron in OotP (Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106381 mayeaux45 wrote: > This argument might have been more convincing (even to me) if it > weren't for OotP already being out...because there are relatively NO > concrete clues to say that Hermione has any feelings for Ron beyond > friendship. I'm a loyal H/Hr shipper, so I hate to argue too hard for R/Hr, but I think there is one string of quotes in OotP that, taken together, does indicate that Hermione might have feelings for Ron. I've posted this before, but no one has ever responded, so I'll trot the theory out one more time here. Read the following four paragraphs and consider their meaning *together*, and tell me what you think: First, in the much-discussed scene in the common room following Harry's first kiss, Hermione was writing to Viktor. She told Ron who she was writing to (after he asked), and Ron got jealous. (U.S. pp. 460-61). Then, in Chapter 25, Harry and Cho go on their date. Cho gets jealous over Hermione, and then she starts talking about Roger Davies and Cedric. Harry gets jealous. Finally, Ch. 26. Hermione asks Harry how his date with Cho went, and he tells her it went badly. Hermione responds with the following: "Harry, you're worse than Ron....Well no, you're not. Look -- you upset Cho when you said you were going to meet me, so she tried to make you jealous. It was her way of trying to find out how much you liked her." (U.S. p. 572). Ok, now...reading all of this together, ask yourself: what did Hermione mean when she said "Harry, you're worse than Ron"?? Why bring Ron into the discussion at that point? What I got out of all of the above was that JKR is subtly telling the reader that when Hermione was writing to Viktor right in front of Ron, she was doing the same thing Cho was doing when she talked about other boys to Harry. That is, she was trying to find out how much Ron liked her. Don't get me wrong; I'm still in the H/Hr camp, but I do think the above is proof that Hermione might have feelings for Ron too. --Cory From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 14:18:11 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:18:11 -0000 Subject: FF: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106382 Pippin wrote: > I think, too, that if Snape ever understood Harry well enough to > offer him a sincere apology, Harry wouldn't need to hear it. > Alla: What do you mean? That Harry does not deserve to hear it, if yes, than why? If you mean something different could you clarify, please? From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Thu Jul 15 14:32:05 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:32:05 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Polyjuiced Hermione Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106383 ---Jason wrote: > Why does JKR go through the extra words and pages to turn Hermione > into a cat?... Is this just showing us that polyjuice is only for humans? Gina: If what Hermione says is "Remember me telling you polyjuice potion only worked on human transformations?" Maybe Hermione is not a human? Wonder if she is an animagus or something else. I know she should be an otter if you go by that but honestly I doubt being an otter will come in handy in the books since it never came up when she was underwater. Gina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 14:00:42 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:00:42 -0000 Subject: "M**blood" and handicap In-Reply-To: <005501c46a69$6edc2cd0$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106384 Sherry Gomes wrote, about the word nigger : > What I mean is that it is absolutely taboo. It is a word that brings > back the horror of slavery, a terrible stain on my country's history, > and genuinely decent people in this country don't say it and would be > shocked if others did. Del replies. That's interesting. You say that the word is taboo because it relates to horrors that were done in the past (I got that much right, I hope ?). Then if we assume that indeed mudblood is the WW equivalent of nigger, wouldn't it indicate that it hides something else too ? Could it be that those purebloods who petition for Muggle-hunting to be made legal are actually the last representative of a much larger group in the past ? As I said in my previous posts, the reaction of the wizarding people to the insult smells of *guilty conscience* to me. Could it be that the WW (or a large portion of it) authorised or even encouraged some kind of horrible behaviour toward the Muggles in a not-so-removed past ? Del From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Thu Jul 15 14:45:56 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:45:56 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The DA Club Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106385 Aggie the DA club would be disbanded. It wasn't needed anymore as the DADA teacher would be teaching the appropriate curriculum. It's bizarre that so many of you had the opposite idea!! Gina: we had music "classes" but their was still band practice after school. I think it will be turned into an extra curricular acitivity like the chess club, jr beta, excel, strings, band, quiddich, or whatever. It will just be a club to practice for those that really enjoy DADA. Gina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Jul 15 14:45:18 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:45:18 -0000 Subject: Is Snape a Vampire (was Re: How did Sirius lure Severus into the Willow? (was: J In-Reply-To: <502C27106D99DB478C13DEDBFD185E15D646BD@EUR-MSG-12.europe.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106386 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tim Regan \(Intl Vendor\)" wrote: > Hi All, > > Wow - I thought this was the canonical oh-no-not-that-again-doesn't-anyone-read-old-posts thread subject; so it feels kind of naughty posting. I won't dig over all the evidence as others have done that better and the link that Pippin gave to > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/mysteries.html > which in turn links to posts back in October 2000 covers them. But Pippin how can your statement: > >>> Snape was a part-vampire who, by means of a switching spell, allowed Voldemort to acquire his vampire characteristics, receiving in exchange the last portion of Voldemort's humanity <<< > And JKR's assertion that she doesn't think that there is any link between Snape and Vampires both be true? They look like stark contradictions to me.<< Pippin: At the risk of sounding like a certain well-known memoirist, it depends on the meaning of 'is'. Meaning, he *was* linked, but the spell altered that permanently, so there aren't any links *now*. I take that "erm" as a verbal squirm, as in "You guys are going to kill me when you realize how misleading this answer is. But, hey, it's true as far as it goes, which isn't as far as you think." Much like Dobby telling Harry that the Diary plot had nothing to do with Voldemort . "It was a clue,sir[...]Was giving you a clue." I realize that most people have put the clues, or should I say "clues" down to a severe case of Evans-itis -- so be it. Pippin equally self-interested -- see "vampires" http://www.hp-lexicon.org/bestiary/bestiary_t-z.html From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Thu Jul 15 14:51:29 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:51:29 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily's Eyes & Blood Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106387 Jen Reese JKR has given Lily characteristics that are similar to a Unicorn: Pure, unspoiled, strong, innocent. And Unicorn blood also has 'highly magical properties' according to FBAWTFT. If you read Firenze's explanation of killing a Unicorn and apply it to Godric's Hollow, the similarity is astonishing: Gina: I never thought about it like that! Excellent idea! That makes lots of sense. Does anyone know if a unicorn or any other creature is said to have green eyes or just really brilliant eyes? I always thought unicorns' eyes were blue for some reason, but they may be green and if so we could be onto something! Maybe Lily had unicorn blood and she was so pure that LV could kill her, but his life is now cursed. Maybe that is why he was having to survive on Unicorn blood - he had the shed blood in his veins already and was already cursed with it. Gina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sherriola at earthlink.net Thu Jul 15 14:57:04 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 08:57:04 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "M**blood" and handicap In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <006f01c46a7b$fe7f1700$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 106388 Sherry Gomes wrote, about the word nigger : > What I mean is that it is absolutely taboo. It is a word that brings > back the horror of slavery, a terrible stain on my country's history, > and genuinely decent people in this country don't say it and would be > shocked if others did. Del replies. That's interesting. You say that the word is taboo because it relates to horrors that were done in the past (I got that much right, I hope ?). Then if we assume that indeed mudblood is the WW equivalent of nigger, wouldn't it indicate that it hides something else too ? Could it be that those purebloods who petition for Muggle-hunting to be made legal are actually the last representative of a much larger group in the past ? As I said in my previous posts, the reaction of the wizarding people to the insult smells of *guilty conscience* to me. Could it be that the WW (or a large portion of it) authorised or even encouraged some kind of horrible behaviour toward the Muggles in a not-so-removed past ? Del Sherry I think you could very well be correct. I don't have any illusions that the wizarding world has always been nice to muggles. Perhaps, back in the days of the four founders, Gryffindor was very unusual in his support of muggle born students. If the mud blood thing is supposed to represent racism, then I think there could very well be some not so pretty history behind it. Sherry G From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Thu Jul 15 14:59:39 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:59:39 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Phineas Nigellus Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106389 Has anybody noticed in OoP p. 826, 828 that Phineas Nigellus which is Sirius' Great Great Grandfather, first of all has a different last name (not Black, how can that be?) & that it is stated #1- p. 826 that Phineas does not believe that Sirius the last of the Blacks is dead and #2 on p.828 it is stated that he still had not returned to his portrait in Dumbledore's Study. Why would she state that he did not return if it wasn't significant? Did she forget, I don't think so... Why didn't he come back? Did he find something? < Gina : The part about the name is interesting. As far as the other I have always believed that since Phineas is dead that if Sirius died he would immediately know it. I think he would either feel it or something to that effect if the last Black died. I think he did not believe it because he knew it could not be true and he went to see where he had gone to. I think we will be finding out soon. ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Thu Jul 15 15:01:45 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 10:01:45 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHHermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106390 Jim Ferer wrote: Could you point out how she [Hermione] shows her romantic attachment to Ron? Carol responds: "Next time there's a ball, ask me before someone else does, and not as a last resort!" (GoF Am. ed. 432). If that's not showing her romantic attachment to Ron I'm a mandrake. Gina: sorry but had to step in here. I do not think that had anything to do with romance on either side. I think she was simply offended that she was a last resort to her two best friends she just found out had not realized she was a girl! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From patientx3 at aol.com Thu Jul 15 15:33:13 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:33:13 -0000 Subject: FF: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106391 Dzeytoun wrote: >>So perhaps a very good answer to what should be done about Severus is that Dumbledore should hire another potions teacher in addition to Snape.<< HunterGreen: I'm guessing there isn't anyone. Potions is a very complex skill, and Snape has been mentioned at least once as being superb at. Dumbledore has been very stubborn about giving him the DADA job, but if there was another potions teacher out there would he still call upon people like Lockhart? Or in the case of OotP, if the MoM hadn't stepped in, who would he have hired? He had no one. That's always been my assumption about Snape, Dumbledore can't hire someone else because there's isn't anyone else. Putting the helpfulness of Snape outside teaching aside, why else would he hire an early-20s'(when he started)- Ex DE-who hates children, to teach children? I wonder though, if it would be possible for someone who wasn't accepted into Snape's Newt-level potions (or who didn't want to take it) to study on their own or with another student and still take the Newt test. Because that would probably be the best option for Harry. Neville, I think, is done with potions. From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Jul 15 15:32:20 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:32:20 -0000 Subject: SHIP:Hermione's feelings for Ron in OotP (Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106392 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ohneill_2001" wrote: > Ok, now...reading all of this together, ask yourself: what did > Hermione mean when she said "Harry, you're worse than Ron"?? Why bring Ron into the discussion at that point? > > What I got out of all of the above was that JKR is subtly telling the reader that when Hermione was writing to Viktor right in front of Ron, she was doing the same thing Cho was doing when she talked about other boys to Harry. That is, she was trying to find out how much Ron liked her.< I agree. There's also Hermione's reaction to Ron's gift of perfume. She said it was "interesting." That's the reaction of someone who's desperately reminding herself that it's the thought that counts--and who likes the thought, even if the perfume made her gag. Otherwise she could have said, "It was very nice" in a distant way, or "You really shouldn't have," in an earnest, "Let's just be friends" kind of way . Pippin From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 15 15:33:43 2004 From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:33:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHHermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040715153343.12904.qmail@web25303.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106393 delwynmarch wrote: Udderpd wrote 1st : > >I agree that she would have to tell Ron in words of one syllable what she thinks of him for it to get through his thick head and I believe that she would do this if she fancied him. Del replies : >Uh ? You lost me there. Why would Hermione tell Ron in no uncertain terms to get lost (which is basically what I suggested) if she *fancied* him ? If she fancies him, she might *not* want to openly talk about it with Ron, especially considering that he doesn't seem ready to face his own feelings. Udderpd 2nd You are misconstruing what I wrote and I am sorry if I wasn't clear. You have added a "to get lost" She wont tell him anything if she doesn't fancy him she will only tell him anything if she likes him and that would be that she likes him. Udderpd wrote 1st: > >She also knows that if she doesn't fancy him and she tells Ron exactly what she thinks of him, his self centered jealousy will blow the trio apart and she is not willing to do this. Del replies : >The only case where Ron's jealousy might be a problem would be if Hermione told him she fancies Harry instead. And we don't know that, no more than we know if she fancies Ron. Both possibilities are just that : possibilities. If Hermione simply doesn't fancy Ron, I see no reason why her telling so should cause any rift in the Trio. Could you explain to me why it would ? Udderpd 2nd So you are trying to tell me that Ron wasn't jealous of Krum going to the ball with Hermione? His attitude is if I don't have any other girl then Hermione should be mine, he cares not one jot what she thinks. Udderpd wrote 1st: > >You intermate that she doesn't understand Harry, I believe that she does and she is willing to keep her feelings for Harry on the back burner until Harry is ready. And she probably knows that this wont be until after the death of Voldemort. Del replies : > I never said that I think Hermione doesn't understand Harry. She does, almost better than Harry himself most of the time. What I said is that she doesn't always know how to *handle* him in OoP, that's completely different. And I don't see why the fact that Hermione understands Harry should mean that she has feelings for him. Or inversely either : having feelings for Harry wouldn't necessarily mean understanding him. Having feelings for someone and understanding them are two widely different things, unfortunately too rarely connected. Udderpd 2nd Maybe the meaning you attribute to the word feelings is different to mine. Udderpd wrote 1st: >> I would be the last person to deny that Ron has feelings for or fancied Hermione, but he must have she is one of his two best friends and he doesn' know any other girls. The only other females he interacts with socialy are his mother and sister and his sister he is trying to turn into a female version of himself, by forbiding her to talk socialy with boys. Del replies : > Harry's no better. He fell for a pretty face he didn't know, as he discovered when he found himself confronted to the prospect of a whole day in her sole company. Apart from Cho, the only girls he ever talks to are Hermione and Ginny. So according to your own reasoning, even if Harry discovered in himself feelings for either girl, that would be only because he doesn't know anyone else. Harry is just as clueless about love and girls as Ron is. Udderpd 2nd Stop trying to change the subject to Harry it doesn't hold up Hermione, Ginny, Luna and Cho (these are the only ones I can remember off the top of my head) are all potential girlfriends for Harry and he has talked socialy to all of them. And I agree he still seems clueless but his worry of Voldermort is kind of distracting and inhibiting isn't it. Udderpd wrote 1st: >> It would be very easy to argue that his childishness after the yule ball is him trying to treat Hermione the same way as he treats Ginny and she's not having any of it. Del replies : > I completely disagree. Ron treats Ginny as his little baby girl, and is affronted that anyone could think of pure innocent little virgin angel Ginny as a young *woman*. On the other hand, Ron didn't even want to admit that Hermione was a girl. The two situations couldn't be more different. Udderpd 2nd Who are you trying to kidd? They are the same thing Ron doesn't know any different. Udderpd wrote 1st: >> Let us not forget that Victor is Jealous of Harry not Ron Hermione talked constantly of Harry when she was with Victor. Del replies : >So ? I agree that one interpretation is indeed that Hermione has feelings for Harry. Another one is that she's not talking about Harry himself, but about his problems, in an attempt to find solutions to them. Yet a third theory is that she doesn't want to betray her feelings for another boy in front of the boy who is taking her out, so she pointedly talks about the boy for whom she has *no* feelings (and yes girls do that sometimes). A fourth is that Viktor is indeed jealous of Harry but for other reasons (Harry is as famous as Viktor, he's as talented as Viktor and he's beating him in the Tournament) so he bristles each time Hermione mentions Harry's name, but he doesn't notice how much she mentions Ron's name because he doesn't consider Ron a threat. A fifth is that he read Rita Skeeter but because he's the over-jealous type he can't bring himself to believe Hermione when she denies everything, and wants to have a talk with Harry anyway. That was just out of the top of my head. I'm sure if I tried I could find several other logical and plausible explanations for Viktor's jealousy. Udderpd 2nd Occams razor the most lightly explanation is usually correct and I do not believe that you really believe any other than the first explanation, it is the only one that makes any sense. Udderpd wrote : >> Ron needs to chat socialy with a lot more girls and then he might learn about himself and (as much as any mere male can) about girls. Del replies : >Considering how clueless he was about Cho, I'd say Harry had better do that too. Uddrepd 2nd Agreed but at least Harry has had some Ron has had none. In my honest opinion Ron and Luna will make a fine couple. TTFN Udder Pen Dragon ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Jul 15 15:08:23 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:08:23 -0000 Subject: FF: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106394 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > Pippin wrote: > > I think, too, that if Snape ever understood Harry well enough to offer him a sincere apology, Harry wouldn't need to hear it.<< > Alla: > > What do you mean? That Harry does not deserve to hear it, if yes, than why? If you mean something different could you clarify, please?< I was thinking of the situation between Harry and Ron in GoF, where Harry doesn't need to hear Ron's apology. I mean that it would be enough for Harry to know he's not being misunderstood anymore--he wouldn't insist on Snape humbling himself. Pippin From ms-tamany at rcn.com Thu Jul 15 15:34:30 2004 From: ms-tamany at rcn.com (ms_tamany) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:34:30 -0000 Subject: Cousins by marriage ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106395 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > Sirius says he and Molly are cousins by marriage. What does that mean > ? To me, that would mean that one of the two married the other's > cousin. But that's obviously impossible. So what does it mean ? > > Del Hmmm. There are several ways to become cousins by marriage. I could marry your cousin and thence become your cousin-in-law, though my brother would not be related to you at all. My father could marry your father's sister, and make us all cousins that way, including my brother and your sister. For that matter, my uncle could marry your aunt and we'd also end up cousins that way. My grandfather could marry your grandmother and we'd become cousins. My grandmother could marry your grandfather's brother and we'd become either second cousins or first cousins once removed. I never have been able to make sense of the degrees of cousinness or the removes or what have you. But basically, somewhere along the family trees, someone in Molly's or Arthur's family married someone in Sirius' family, making them all cousins in some way or form, through marriage. Does that help? -- *** Tammy Rizzo ms-tamany at rcn.com From angellslin at yahoo.com.hk Thu Jul 15 15:46:27 2004 From: angellslin at yahoo.com.hk (angellslin) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:46:27 -0000 Subject: "Prince" in HBP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106396 When everyone is guessing which boy/man the "Half Blood Prince" is referring, my question is - how come a prince emerges? As far as we know, wizarding world is ruled by Ministry of Magic. There're no king, queen, prince or princess. So what kind of prince is this character? How should we understand the term "prince"? Should we take it literally as a boy born to a royal family or what exactly does it mean? Angel From joj at rochester.rr.com Thu Jul 15 15:30:01 2004 From: joj at rochester.rr.com (coolbeans3131) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:30:01 -0000 Subject: Polyjuiced Hermione In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106397 > ---Jason wrote: > > > Why does JKR go through the extra words and pages to turn > Hermione > > > into a cat?... Is this just showing us that polyjuice is only > for > > humans? "sad1199" wrote: > I don't know if there is a connection but, in OotP (American) p.511 > there is a mention of a woman at St. Mungo's whose whose entire head > was covered in fur and Harry thinks to himself that something > similar had happened to Hermione in their second year. Joj replies: Yeah, and it's also one of the memory flashes Harry has with Snape. Why bring it up twice in OotP? I also wondered why Harry didn't get a flash of her petrified, as that was a much worse situation. If it was an unimportant bit used for a little fun and humor in CoS, why would it ever be brought up again? From anita_hillin at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 15:54:41 2004 From: anita_hillin at yahoo.com (AnitaKH) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 08:54:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cousins by marriage ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040715155441.20707.qmail@web42101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106398 delwynmarch wrote: Sirius says he and Molly are cousins by marriage. What does that mean? To me, that would mean that one of the two married the other's cousin. But that's obviously impossible. So what does it mean ? akh: When I read that, I presumed that one of Sirius' cousins married one of Molly's cousins. Given the mania for keeping track of ancestry, they'd know about those cousins, even if they were second-cousins. In my mother's family, ancestry is tracked very closely, and she knew that her childhood friend's wife was her cousin's niece by marriage (Mom's first cousin married Valdimer's [yes, that was her name]uncle). They didn't consider themselves relatives, however. akh, who realizes this explanation may be even MORE confusing... --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From flamingstarchows at att.net Thu Jul 15 16:01:05 2004 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (texaschow) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:01:05 -0000 Subject: FF: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106399 > Pippin wrote: > > I think, too, that if Snape ever understood Harry well enough to > > offer him a sincere apology, Harry wouldn't need to hear it. > > > Alla: > > What do you mean? That Harry does not deserve to hear it, if yes, > than why? If you mean something different could you clarify, please? I'm at work, so I don't have my book to refer to, but I think she means something like after the dragon scene in GoF. Ron started to apologize to Harry and Harry suddenly realized he _didn't need_ to hear it, and basically cut him off. Ron was trying to apologize and Harry forgiving him was all in one fell swoop. ~Cathy~ From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 16:05:22 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:05:22 -0000 Subject: FF: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106400 Pippin wrote: snip. > I was thinking of the situation between Harry and Ron in GoF, > where Harry doesn't need to hear Ron's apology. I mean that it > would be enough for Harry to know he's not being > misunderstood anymore--he wouldn't insist on Snape humbling > himself. Alla: Oh, OK. Thanks. It could very well be. I still would like to see Snape at least starting saying that apology, because otherwise it wil only speak of Harry's attitude change. From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Thu Jul 15 15:54:30 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:54:30 -0000 Subject: FF: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106401 > Alla wrote: > Yes, again. Strangely enough, I never doubt that Harry will apologise > to Snape at the end. Of course, that is mainly because Harry is > supposed to have more forgiving soul than Snape , in other words, > metathinking all over the place. > I am sure that Harry will wpoligise. Will Snape thought? I would > prefer still that Snape be the first one, since he was the one who > started all that, but I am not keeping my hopes up. boyd: Look, I love Harry as much as the next person, and one of the reasons that I do is that he is very real and *flawed*. He seems never to ask adults for help, he rushes blindly into things, he's a bit self-centered (see the beginning of OoP) and he continues to judge a book by its cover (Sirius in PoA and Snape, for example). Are any of those fatal flaws? I hope not. But they certainly don't make him a bad person, just a damaged person. Hey, even DD himself makes mistakes (at least he claims to). So why are we so quick to bash Snape? Because we see him through Harry's jaundiced eyes. Yes, Snape is an adult and a teacher. And yes, he is overly rule-oriented and prejudiced against Harry due to his history with James. And a bit harsh. But who has done more for the Order? Who else turned their back on LV, perhaps after playing the spy, a most dangerous game where LV is concerned? Who do the other OoP'ers gather 'round excitedly when he returns to make a report in OoP? Who has worked countercurses, kept an eye out for then-murderer Sirius, and tried to teach Harry the horrible to be an occlumens? These are the important things. We keep focusing on the little, inconsequential things like how Snape is a meanie, because that's what Harry continues to focus on. When will he finally see that Snape is a good guy when it comes to all the things that matter? Oh, and if history is any indication, don't be expecting Harry to apologize broadly to Snape in 6 or 7. He hasn't yet, even when Snape has proven to be an ally in the war on Voldemort. --boyd who can't believe he's been drawn offsides into a Snape discussion From garybec101 at comcast.net Thu Jul 15 16:06:14 2004 From: garybec101 at comcast.net (garybec) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:06:14 -0000 Subject: The Missing Guard Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106402 Becki wonders; (and inserts the disclaimer and apology if this is an old topic and begs forgiveness if it has). Where in the heck was the person that was suppose to be on guard duty that night that the "rescue squad" entered the MoM? I understand that the DE's probably got rid of the desk security guard, in which Harry thought was odd that there was nobody there. But what about the OoP guard? The one that every one always took in turn to guard the Department of Mysteries entrance? Perhaps they were overthrown by a DE or two, but I would think that should have been confirmed in the book. Any theories anyone? Becki (who finds it challenging to read the PS and listen to the OoP at the same time, different intervals, of course). From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Thu Jul 15 16:10:40 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:10:40 -0000 Subject: "M**blood" and handicap In-Reply-To: <006f01c46a7b$fe7f1700$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106403 > Del wrote: > That's interesting. You say that the word is taboo because it relates > to horrors that were done in the past (I got that much right, I hope > ?). Then if we assume that indeed mudblood is the WW equivalent of > nigger, wouldn't it indicate that it hides something else too ? Could > it be that those purebloods who petition for Muggle-hunting to be made > legal are actually the last representative of a much larger group in > the past ? > And Sherry G responded: > I think you could very well be correct. I don't have any illusions that the > wizarding world has always been nice to muggles. Perhaps, back in the days > of the four founders, Gryffindor was very unusual in his support of muggle > born students. If the mud blood thing is supposed to represent racism, then > I think there could very well be some not so pretty history behind it. boyd: I guess I assumed that muggle-borns were severely persecuted during the 11 year reign of terror I call Voldemort I. And possibly also during a similar reign of terror by Slytherin after he left Hogwarts. Those times alone would have given rise to the horror that is felt at the word "mudblood." And it appears that Gryffindor was not the odd one out in supporting muggle-borns--according to Binns and the Sorting Hat, it was Slytherin who had different ideas from the other three Founders, Slytherin who created the Chamber and placed a basilisk there, and Slytherin who left Hogwarts. So three of the four Founders were not anti-mudblood 1,000 ago. Just like the modern-day Hogwarts, that view seems to be in the minority. As for the rest of the modern-day WW, who can tell? --boyd From flamingstarchows at att.net Thu Jul 15 16:12:40 2004 From: flamingstarchows at att.net (texaschow) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:12:40 -0000 Subject: Polyjuiced Hermione In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106404 > ---Jason wrote: > > Why does JKR go through the extra words and pages to turn Hermione > > into a cat?... Is this just showing us that polyjuice is only for > humans? > > > Gina: > If what Hermione says is "Remember me telling you polyjuice potion > only worked on human transformations?" Maybe Hermione is not a human? Wonder > if she is an animagus or something else. I know she should be an otter if > you go by that but honestly I doubt being an otter will come in handy in the > books since it never came up when she was underwater. > > Gina > I'm pretty sure Hermione meant human to human transformations. The hair she plucked off of Millicent's robes was cat hair, so that was the non-human. Maybe the whole point of the polyjuice scene was to show that Hermione is human, and does make mistakes. It also shows what happens when you *assume* too much. ~Cathy~ From tzakis1225 at netzero.com Thu Jul 15 16:10:30 2004 From: tzakis1225 at netzero.com (demetra1225) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:10:30 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106405 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > So, Ron can laugh at Muggles, but it is quite clear what he thinks > about THAT word and what is behind this word. By the way, I don't > think he hates Muggles, he just finds them strange, because he does > not know much about them. > > I think the prejudice IS against the blood. [snip] Demetra: I know you were responding to Carol, but I hope you don't mind my jumping in as well. I agree with Alla. I believe that Mudblood is the equivalent of a racial/ethnic slur. The word is demeaning and implies that the person is inferior in some way. Alla: If we knew that Severus only said this word once in his life under > the stress, I would not condemn him, but we KNOW that he acted on it > by joining Voldemort, so yes, I 'd say that his actions are > reprehensible. > > I am not saying that he could not change, I would be delighted to > learn that he does not hold such views anymore, but for now I find > what he did to be inexcusable. [snip] Demetra: We don't know that Snape only uttered that word once, neither do we know that he uttered many times. I assume he grew up in a family that was heavy into the Dark Arts (where else would he have learned all the curses he knew before he came to Hogwarts). His family were probably amongst those who despise Mudbloods. He could very well have grown up in a household where that word was brandished about freely. I can see Snape in his utter humiliation tossing out that word (perhaps one of those impulsive moments where opening of mouth precedes engagement of brain). Nasty for sure, but that doesn't necessarily mean he buys into the belief. Neither do I think that the fact that he joined the DE's absolutely means that he wanted to act on his hatred of all things Muggle. I think he was certainly raised believing in pure blood superiority, but it may have been something else that drew him to the DE's. Maybe it was the influence of the group of friends who had accepted him (Lucius, Bellatrix, et al). The influence of peer pressure at that age is pretty strong. Or maybe Voldemort wanted Snape because of his potions abilities and lured him to the fold. Voldemort can certainly be very tricky, and I think Snape would have lapped up any praise or respect for his abilities, at least at first. That brings us back to why Snape left LV. Disillusionment after seeing what the DE's were really about? Distaste when seeing the sadistic torture up close and personal? Something more personal? Demetra From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 16:17:50 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:17:50 -0000 Subject: FF: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106406 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "boyd_smythe" wrote: > We keep focusing on the little, inconsequential things like how Snape > is a meanie, because that's what Harry continues to focus on. When > will he finally see that Snape is a good guy when it comes to all the > things that matter? Alla: Here is the main difference between yours view and mine. I DON'T think that Snape is a good guy , when it comes to all things that matter. Even though we see him through Harry's eyes, I saw enough of his actions, which don't make him a good person in my eyes. He is against Voldemort, yes, which (sorry for being repetitive) does not make him a good person yet. Boyd: > Oh, and if history is any indication, don't be expecting Harry to > apologize broadly to Snape in 6 or 7. He hasn't yet, even when Snape > has proven to be an ally in the war on Voldemort. Alla: Not in book 6, but definitely in book 7, IMO From drliss at comcast.net Thu Jul 15 12:53:33 2004 From: drliss at comcast.net (drliss at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:53:33 +0000 Subject: Who would love Snape? Message-ID: <071520041253.1915.40F67E4C0002F0180000077B22007481849C9C07049D0B@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 106407 Sad119: > In an earlier post a quote from JKR was mentioned and part of it > was "Who would (or could) love Snape?" Here's my idea of who would > love Snape: She would be a very strong patient witch. Probably a > Hufflepuff. She would at first think of Snape as the dark/mysterious > bad boy type and then after she forced her way into his life she > would see the pain and anger underneath his nasty exterior and have > to fix it. She would also find that he is a VERY loyal and > trustworthy wizard. At first, Severus would resent any intrusion > into his pathetic unhappy life but, she would persist until she > broke through the barriers he has raised. > We all hate (well, obviously I don't...) Snape because he is > horrible to the hero Harry. It doesn't say that he is horrible to > everybody, in fact he can be quite pleasant to members of his own > house. Also, Snape cannot stand incompetence in others (Neville) > because his father found only incompetence in him. I would like to > see Severus find a love in book 6 or 7. I think that when it all > comes to an end, he will be standing in victory with Harry and > whomever else survives. Lissa adds: I think you have some interesting points there. The most interesting to me is your final point, about how Snape is a nasty evil villain as seen by Harry, but how does everyone else perceive him? When I read SS/PS the first time (and didn?t know the ages of the teachers!), I?d heard the speculations that Snape would one day find romance and figured that it was McGonagall. Well, given that she?s 70 and he?s in his thirties (Snape as a boy-toy? what a thought!) I?ve discarded that idea, but still. We?ve all seen how Professor McGonagall acts when she doesn?t like someone, and she does not act that way at all towards Snape. In fact, there seems to be a friendly rivalry and some respect between the two of them. And above anything else, the characteristic I associate with McGonagall is fairness. Fudge also seems to have a lot of respect for Snape. I know Fudge is another question in and of himself, but his respect seems quite genuine in PoA (before he decides Snape is mentally unbalanced, which given the way he was raving was probably a logical conclusion for Fudge to make!). And of course, Dumbledore stands by Snape as firmly as any of the Mauraders- perhaps even more so, because he doesn?t seem to be fighting Lupin too hard from leaving at the end of PoA. I can understand why JKR says who would want him in love with them? Just the greasy hair alone? yuck! (A friend also pointed out that if his hair?s THAT greasy, he probably has some pretty rank body odor, too. Lovely thought.) I am curious as to what JKR means when she says watch him in the seventh book and hints at some sort of romantic attachment. No real romantic prospects have been introduced for him. Tonks just does not seem the type, and other than that I can?t think of any witches in the right age range. (Actually, the only one I can think of that has the capacity to overlook everything Snape?s ever been is Lupin. But as much as I think Lupin and Sirius had something going, and as much as I think Lupin might be able to conjure up some feelings (if Snape took a bath), I can?t ever see Snape forgetting who Lupin?s two best friends were- unless that was the reason he hated Sirius for so long to begin with anyway.) I?ve been a fan of the Snape-loved-Lily theory for a long time too, and could see that coming up. But I just can?t get any theory where someone loved Snape to work in my head, but that?s likely personal prejudice. I do agree that if someone did love Snape, they would see him as a classic ?he needs to be saved? sort of project. They would need a lot of patience, a lot of tolerance, and a lot of- (Lupin, would you PLEASE go away?) Excuse me, a lot of strength, because I don?t think Snape wants to be loved. Like you said, it?s an intrusion on his life, and even when he?s miserable, Snape doesn?t appreciate people sticking their noses into his business (like when Lily tried to defend him against James and Sirius and he turned against her). I haven?t seen anyone that comes in direct contact with Severus to have that sort of relationship with him, but as many have pointed out, we see him solely through Harry?s eyes. I DO think love had something to do with Snape?s turn from the dark side. I?m not entirely convinced it was romantic love, but if it was, I tend to think it was his love for someone, not their love for him. Hmmm. Methinks I should stop procrastinating and get to work. Out of curiosity, because I can?t remember- is Snape ever at Christmas dinners? Lissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pt4ever at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 16:24:59 2004 From: pt4ever at yahoo.com (JoAnna) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:24:59 -0000 Subject: Polyjuiced Hermione In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106408 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "texaschow" > I'm pretty sure Hermione meant human to human transformations. The > hair she plucked off of Millicent's robes was cat hair, so that was > the non-human. > > Maybe the whole point of the polyjuice scene was to show that > Hermione is human, and does make mistakes. It also shows what > happens when you *assume* too much. > > ~Cathy~ I always thought that the point of turning Hermione into a cat is so JKR would have an excuse for her *not* to go to the Slytherin dungeons. In the scene where H&R are impersonating C&G, they're both very awkward and don't know what to say to Draco. Hermione, I imagine, would have been much more prepared and confident with her questions (also, I imagine she would have known the way to the Slytherin dungeons, having memorized the layout of the castle from reading Hogwarts, A History). :) As for Madam Pomfrey keeping her in the hospital wing for so long... I have no doubt that Hermione begged her to let her stay. Would you want to be among your classmates after having accidentally transfigured yourself into a cat? Fur on your face, and whiskers? She'd never live it down - everyone, especially the Slytherins, would tease her mercilessly. - JoAnna From squeakinby at tds.net Thu Jul 15 16:41:03 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:41:03 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Polyjuiced Hermione In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40F6B39F.7040107@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 106409 JoAnna wrote: > As for Madam Pomfrey keeping her in the hospital wing for so long... I > have no doubt that Hermione begged her to let her stay. Would you > want to be among your classmates after having accidentally > transfigured yourself into a cat? Fur on your face, and whiskers? > She'd never live it down - everyone, especially the Slytherins, would > tease her mercilessly. > Why, if you can regrow bones overnight, does it take 3 weeks to unpolyjuice Hermione? That's the issue for me, not that Hermione doesn't want to be seen, but why this magic of Madame Pomfrey's seems so out of whack with all her other remedies. Jem From tmar78 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 16:43:27 2004 From: tmar78 at yahoo.com (tyler maroney) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:43:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OOTP "Like a snake" comment by Lucius Malfoy In-Reply-To: <1089845259.97973.68549.m22@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040715164327.21583.qmail@web14107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106410 Danie writes: " 'Quite astonishing, the way you continue to wriggle out of very tight holes...Snakelike, in fact..." I'm not sure if this is a reference to the Daily Prophet publishing stories about Harry being a parselmouth, a reference to COS, or even a warning (some folks have proposed that Lucius is a spy in order to gain power for himself). Any thoughts? Tyler: My thoughts are its a reference to the Daily Prophet report where Rita revealed that Harry is a parselmouth. Its obvious from GOF that Fudge is prejudiced against them and, by making the remark, Lucius was in effect kissing up to the Minister, making him think he holds the same view. That was my take on it anyway. ===== "May your life preach more loudly than your lips" -- William Channing __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Thu Jul 15 16:49:52 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 11:49:52 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOTP "Like a snake" comment by Lucius Mal foy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106411 Danie writes: " 'Quite astonishing, the way you continue to wriggle out of very tight holes...Snakelike, in fact..." I'm not sure if this is a reference to the Daily Prophet publishing stories about Harry being a parselmouth, a reference to COS, or even a warning (some folks have proposed that Lucius is a spy in order to gain power for himself). Any thoughts? Gina: I am glad you brought this up because I have always found this interesting. I also read it like Mr. Weasley was upset about the statement. I think it was a slur at Harry about a connection with LV that Harry is not aware of and AW and LM are. Maybe Mr. Weasley was worried Harry would figure something out. I could be a foreshadow of Harry seeing through the snake since I am sure both AW and LM were aware of the possibility of LV entering Harry's mind. I however, still think there is more of a connection that we have yet to see. Gina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Jul 15 16:51:55 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:51:55 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106412 Alla: > > If we knew that Severus only said this word once in his life under the stress, I would not condemn him, but we KNOW that he acted on it by joining Voldemort, so yes, I 'd say that his actions are reprehensible.< This seems doubtful reasoning: Snape was a racist when he joined the Death Eaters, so he must have been one when he used the M-word. Personally, I wouldn't like to be held responsible for something I said while I was being dangled upside-down by my worst enemies and my knickers were showing. Take Harry-- although he does take note of who's handsome and who isn't, I wouldn't call him a lookist. And if he joined a lookist group later, that wouldn't mean he was always a lookist at heart. But if Draco Malfoy were dangling him upside down and Pansy Parkinson or Millicent Bulstrode were the one to intervene, I wouldn't put it past Harry to tell them to keep their ugly Slytherin noses out of his business. And James is *so* sexist, as Harry realizes. Just because James didn't call Lily the actual word for a woman who sells her favors doesn't make him more respectful to Lily than Snape was. And James wasn't being mistreated at the time. Pippin From n2fgc at arrl.net Thu Jul 15 17:05:35 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:05:35 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "M**blood" and handicap In-Reply-To: <006f01c46a7b$fe7f1700$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106413 [Del wrote]: | Then if we assume that indeed mudblood is the WW equivalent of | nigger, wouldn't it indicate that it hides something else too ? Could | it be that those purebloods who petition for Muggle-hunting to be made | legal are actually the last representative of a much larger group in | the past ? | | As I said in my previous posts, the reaction of the wizarding people | to the insult smells of *guilty conscience* to me. Could it be that | the WW (or a large portion of it) authorised or even encouraged some | kind of horrible behaviour toward the Muggles in a not-so-removed past ? | | [Sherry responds]: | I think you could very well be correct. I don't have any | illusions that the | wizarding world has always been nice to muggles. Perhaps, back | in the days | of the four founders, Gryffindor was very unusual in his support of muggle | born students. If the mud blood thing is supposed to represent | racism, then | I think there could very well be some not so pretty history behind it. [Lee]: Absolutely, I'd bet my last knut on that. Whenever I see that scene in GOF at the QWC and the torture done to the Roberts family, etc., my brain screams "KKK!"...or other such group. Sadly, prejudice is a hard, practically impossible beasty to kill. If something/someone doesn't meet the "standard norms" as declared by whatever culture, things like this will happen despite best efforts to stamp it out. Lee Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me; | n2fgc at arrl.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From rolshan2000 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 17:08:25 2004 From: rolshan2000 at yahoo.com (Regina Olshan) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 10:08:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SHHermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: In-Reply-To: <1089907633.19651.4366.m22@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040715170826.66966.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106414 I would be interested to know how those who do not believe in R/H explain the movies? I asked once before and got one very curt response saying movies weren't canon and the directors would do anything to attract and audience. Well...maybe so. I would still be interested to know whether it is the view of those who do not believe R/H have feelings for each other, that JKK does not know/care that this is being presented to the contrary in the movies? I cannot believe that. I think movies may be consistent with either R/H outcome or current R/H interest which ultimately changes for some reason to lead to a different outcome (H/H or other) but is not consistent and cannot be made consistent with the "no R/H interest" theory. I lean strongly toward ultimate R/H BECAUSE I do not believe romance will play a major part in remaining books. Doing an R/H reversal and H/H coming together would still be very possible, but would take a fair amount of space/plot to getting there. R/H would take nothing more than a brief moment of realization (could even be offstage). The latter seems more consistent with the build-up and with the series focus. Regina From cincimaelder at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 13:43:54 2004 From: cincimaelder at yahoo.com (cincimaelder) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:43:54 -0000 Subject: Patronus at DADA OWL (was Re: Harry's Future...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106415 > I got the impression that Bones was referring to how Harry produced a > corporeal Patronus on third grade, which he had mentioned about five > seconds before. I could be wrong, of course. I was actually referring to the Tofty exam. However when Bones was surprised at the hearing it was because Harry had produced a "fully fledged Patronus" on the night the dementor visited Whinging. After she was impressed by this, she was again surprised when he told the form his Patronus always took. The word "Always" took her by surprise, and she asked if he had "produced a Patronis before now?" He said "Yes...I've been doing it for over a year__". A couple sentences after that she also said it was impressive that he did it in 3rd year (but only after her first reaction to him doing it in the current year). Even so, my point is that it might be somewhat impressive that he could produce a corporeal Patronus, but the extent to which everyone oouu'd and aahhh'd would indicate it being beyond just somewhat impressive and HIGHLY EXCEPTIONAL, which would lead me to believe that even if a student had just 1 or even 2 years schooling beyond his, they would not be able to do it. And in PoA, didn't Lupin mention to Harry that even getting the wisps of silver at first was rather impressive. (I can't check the accuracy of this because I have lent my book out, but if someone else knows, I may have remembered incorrectly???) Mae From suzchiles at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 17:53:29 2004 From: suzchiles at yahoo.com (Suzanne Chiles) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 10:53:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Polyjuiced Hermione Message-ID: <20040715175329.54109.qmail@web40602.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106416 Sorry, but you're talking apples and oranges here. In your scenario, the student would send home from the hospital with his or her parents, who would be responsible for monitoring the child's condition and would take responsibility for returning the child to the hospital if any complications occurred. At Hogwarts, there are no adults available to monitor a child's health after illness or injury. Prudence would require that the child be kept in the infirmary until the child was clearly out of danger. I would suspect this is pretty much standard practice at any boarding school. As for Hermione, I wouldn't think it would be practical for her to return to the general school population while still a cat, would you? Jem says: > And she's there for so long! Three weeks, I think it was. > > Everyone who goes to the hospital wing is stuck there. You > get conked > on the head, you're out for a week. Oliver Wood. Harry. Ron. > > In America, you'd be an outpatient. They wouldn't want you hanging > around getting underfoot, decrying the Jello. Maybe Madam Pomfrey is > lonely. > > Jem __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From omphale at onetel.com Wed Jul 14 22:39:29 2004 From: omphale at onetel.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 22:39:29 -0000 Subject: Lily's Patronus? (was Re: Lily's Eyes & Blood) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106417 > Jen: JKR has given Lily characteristics that are similar to a > Unicorn: Pure, unspoiled, strong, innocent. And Unicorn blood also > has 'highly magical properties' according to FBAWTFT. Saraquel: I wonder what Lily's patronus was, a unicorn perhaps? Or maybe yet another unregistered animagi - a unicorn. From scb1066 at adelphia.net Thu Jul 15 14:20:12 2004 From: scb1066 at adelphia.net (littlegreenpartyhats) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:20:12 -0000 Subject: SHIPHermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106418 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: > Could you point out how she shows her romantic attachment to Ron? There was the scene in GOF after the second task where Fleur kisses Ron and Hermione looks put out. Yes, Fleur also kissed Harry before Ron, but Hermione's reaction is clearly written as a response to Fleur's kissing Ron. From kandbmom at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 16:01:50 2004 From: kandbmom at yahoo.com (Lisa) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:01:50 -0000 Subject: "Prince" in HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106419 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "angellslin" wrote: <...snip...> > we take it literally as a boy born to a royal family or what exactly > does it mean? > > > Angel Kandbmom: At this point we don't know if it is actual royality or a person that considers himself a "prince" or is considered so by others. I took it literally at first until I read posts about Dudley being the "prince" Then it occured to me that he is considered a "prince" by his parents so it could be anyone. I have thought that DD is the most likely candidate however, it could be someone from the Black tapestry. They consider themselves royality. Sirius even says this in OotP chap.6,"...my parents with their prue-blood mania,convincesd that to be Black made you practically royal..." As much as I think DD could be the "prince" taking JKRs words too literally could lead us in the wrong direction. kandbmom From srobles at caribe.net Thu Jul 15 17:51:41 2004 From: srobles at caribe.net (anasazi_pr) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:51:41 -0000 Subject: SHIP:Hermione's feelings for Ron in OotP (Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106420 pippin_999 wrote: > I agree. There's also Hermione's reaction to Ron's gift of > perfume. She said it was "interesting." That's the reaction of > someone who's desperately reminding herself that it's the > thought that counts--and who likes the thought, even if the > perfume made her gag. > > Otherwise she could have said, "It was very nice" in a distant > way, or "You really shouldn't have," in an earnest, "Let's just be > friends" kind of way . > > Pippin My reply: Actually, Pippin, the exact quote is: "'I've been wanting that New Theory of Numerology for ages! And that perfume's really UNUSUAL, Ron.'" Now, according to the dictionary, these two words do not convey the same thought: UNUSUAL: Not usual, common, or ordinary. INTERESTING: Engaging the attention; exciting, or adapted to excite, interest, curiosity, or emotion; as, an interesting story; interesting news. Clearly, one is more impersonal than the other. I would have preferred for Hermione to use the word "interesting." "Unusual" was a bit too impersonal for my liking (and this coming from a H/Hr shipper). Peace, Anasazi From rhinobabies at hotmail.com Thu Jul 15 16:21:11 2004 From: rhinobabies at hotmail.com (coderaspberry77) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:21:11 -0000 Subject: "Prince" in HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106421 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "angellslin" wrote: > When everyone is guessing which boy/man the "Half Blood Prince" is > referring, my question is - how come a prince emerges? > > As far as we know, wizarding world is ruled by Ministry of Magic. > There're no king, queen, prince or princess. So what kind of prince > is this character? How should we understand the term "prince"? Should > we take it literally as a boy born to a royal family or what exactly > does it mean? > > > Angel Hi and all the general introductions, happy to be part of the group! I've thought a bit about this myself since hearing the title, and my speculations go in two directions: 1) The HB "Prince" is not a prince in the sense that they rule over an established dominion or succeed from a line of royalty, but is viewed, by one or more groups in the WW, as a "prince" - a protector, a leader, a visible, admirable authority figure in whom they can place their trust and hopes for the future. If looked at that way, it could be a few people, and there are already a glut of posts theorizing that topic :). 2) The WW used to be run differently, parallel to how the Muggle world works/worked - that is, there used to be many more regencies around, but that as time went on and the marvels (or lack thereof, depending on your leanings) of democracy and other political systems were discovered, the whole "King, queen, prince, etc. thing was discarded in favor of a government of appointed leaders. When looked at that way, you'd have to go ahead and assume that the HBP is someone in the past, and then you get leanings more toward Godric Gryffindor, since the MoM has been around for quite some time (I'm too lazy to check the wonderful resources here and at HPL for actual dates, but I'm sure about the veracity of the statement, anyway). Of course, it could be someone from a country where there are still wizarding kingdoms. Some wizard from Monaco or something. Who knows? I'm also not adverse to it not being a half-blood wizard, but a half-blood...something. OK, maybe I have more than two theories. Meh. From cyclone_61032 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 11:34:42 2004 From: cyclone_61032 at yahoo.com (David & Laura) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 11:34:42 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106422 > Carol: > > "Next time there's a ball, ask me before someone else does, and > > not as a last resort!" (GoF Am. ed. 432). > > > > If that's not showing her romantic attachment to Ron (and her > > frustration with him for not recognizing his own attraction to > > her), I'm a mandrake. Well, okay, that's pushing it a bit far. > > But to me, that one remark says all we need to know about > > Hermione's feelings for Ron. Mayeaux: > IMO, this particular statement made by Hermione doesn't really mean > anything. > This argument might have been more convincing (even to me) if it > weren't for OotP already being out...because there are relatively > NO concrete clues to say that Hermione has any feelings for Ron > beyond friendship. I just find it interesting that JKR put > in another *potential* love interest for Ron by introducing Luna > Lovegood (who I found to be absolutely hilarious by the way)! David here: Out of lurking again. I agree May. I picked up on the Luna angle immediately on reading OotP, and re-reads have only solidified my opinion. Luna seems fascinated with Ron (laughing at his jokes, humming 'Weasley is our King'. I'm not much on the shipping, but it just seems as if H and H keep growing closer. Whether it ever evolves into a relationship I can't say, but my guess is it will. There may be an initial reaction from Ron, but I see Luna entering the picture here. I'm more concerned with the end of the story. Is JK writing an epic tragedy. H/H fall in love. Harry sacrifices himself to save his love, his friends, and basically the rest of the world. Didn't I read somewhere that one of JK's favorite novels is 'Tale of Two Cities'? From persephone_kore at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 18:04:42 2004 From: persephone_kore at yahoo.com (persephone_kore) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:04:42 -0000 Subject: The Virtues of Hufflepuff House and Cedric Diggory (Was: Snape and . . .cour In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106423 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > Del replies : > Well, she's the one who had a kid (Neville ?) say that "Hufflepuff > wouldn't be too bad", and Hagrid call the Hufflepuffs "a load of > duffers" (might not be exact quotes, but I'm sure I'm not very far), > right back in PS/SS. PK What Hagrid actually said was "Everyone says Hufflepuff is a load of duffers, but --" before Harry interrupts him. Personally I think it's pretty clear Hagrid disagrees. (I did fall for the misquote once myself, but had been surprised by it since the only one I remembered actively insulting Hufflepuff was Draco, so I was pleased to find Hagrid hadn't actually done more than report a common opinion and start to object to it.) > HunterGreen: > > The sad thing is that Cedric was always looked upon as such > > a "surprise" in a way to the Hufflepuff house (which as its said > > over and over again in GoF, hardly ever gets any glory). The > > general attitude in the books is that being a Hufflepuff is > > nothing to be proud of. And I wonder how much of that is JKR's > > intention. I would personally say that whether Hufflepuff *really* never gets any glory or people are simply exaggerating because it's been a while (the latter is entirely possible; these are teenagers, and Slytherin dominated things for several years followed by a rather startling contingent of exceptional Gryffindors), JKR probably does mean to indicate that a lot of people look down on Hufflepuffs. I also would say that she means they are *wrong*. The qualities she gives Hufflepuff in sorting are almost unequivocally positive (in a general way: obviously anything taken to extremes or pointed the wrong way can have a dark side). It's Helga she gives the sort of inclusive admissions policy Dumbledore favors -- and while I've seen people suggest Helga's emphasis on loyalty is sinister, I really don't think that's how it's presented. (No, I don't see a contradiction between loyal/just/hard-working as Sorting-traits and a willingness to teach anybody. The latter doesn't mean she wasn't assertive about ones she already knew she wanted, and I'd be very surprised if her approach didn't involve encouraging or instilling the qualities she considered to be the basis of good character into her students.) And despite what some people seem to think, all the Hufflepuffs we actually see for very long seem to be pretty darned capable. Del: > > Then in CoS, Ernie's bunch of Hufflepuffs appear quite stupid, > coward and even ridiculous for believing so easily that Harry is the > Heir of Slytherin and for making up huge stories about Harry and > Justin. PK: Well, most of the school must appear stupid, cowardly, and ridiculous, then. *We* know what actually happened, but most of the students didn't, and rumors seem to be wildfire there. The evidence looked to be rather against him -- just as it did in GoF. Del: > > Then of course there's simply the way the few Hufflepuffs we know > are described : Justin the bubbling Muggle quasi-aristocrat or > obvious queer figure, PK: All right, you've lost me on this one. I know there's a fanon convention about Justin and m/m pairings -- well, I've been informed of it as a common assumption, anyway; I can't really distinguish it personally from all the other willy-nilly shipping -- but I've never really seen why this is supposed to be "obvious." I'm also trying and failing to remember him "bubbling" about anything. Not that bubbly people can't be fun, but I remember him mentioning having been down for Eton when everybody else is discussing their backgrounds and previous experiences, and that's really all I can think of. Del: > Ernie the New Percy, Hannah Abbott and her pigtails. PK: What's wrong with pigtails? As for Ernie, sure he's pompous and self-important, but I really like him, myself. For one thing, he's funny. *g* For another, he makes sure that if he's going to retract or apologize for something, he's at least as loud and as public about the apology or retraction as he was about whatever he's decided he was wrong about. And that's *not* necessarily easy. Del: > And of course Cedric "pretty boy" Diggory. We readers might be aware > that Cedric is really a neat person, but Harry's (and the other > Gryffindors, in particular the twins) constant dislike of him is > *bound* to have an effect on our judgement after a while. PK: Well, I suppose that's possible. Of course, it's explicitly pointed out that Harry respected Cedric and changed his mind to decide Cedric was a "useless pretty boy" after learning Cedric had asked Cho to the Yule Ball. I'd say that tells us more ill of Harry than of Cedric. Del: > And then in OoP, we get Zacharias Smith ! PK: Yes, first we listen to people griping about Hufflepuffs being depicted as gullible (not that they fall for anything half the rest of the school doesn't, though perhaps Hannah creates wilder theories), and then we get introduced to a skeptical one and everybody gripes about HIM. Wah. ;) Del: > So yes, I think it is quite obvious that JKR intended for us to have > little consideration for the Hufflepuffs. Now, why ever she would do > that, I have no idea, but the proofs are there. > PK: I think it's clear that she means for much of the wizarding world to have little consideration for the Hufflepuffs, and that the probable reason is that Hufflepuff virtues are simply not the terribly flashy kind or the most fun. They're harder to appreciate *in oneself* than the rest, especially for the immature; they may tend to be more often the wind beneath wings than the eagle. Utterly necessary, but invisible. Hopefully, at least by the end of the series, attentive readers won't be able to miss that. :) PK From cincimaelder at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 14:39:22 2004 From: cincimaelder at yahoo.com (cincimaelder) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:39:22 -0000 Subject: Patronus at DADA OWL In-Reply-To: <001301c46a66$75460cb0$37c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106424 Cathy a.k.a. DuffyPoo wrote: > Maybe poor old Professor Tofty thought Harry could use all the points > he could get. I don't think Tofty thought Harry could use all the points he could get, he seemed very impressed by Harry, he did not seem to feel sorry for him. I guess none of us can say what's in JKR's mind, but I think producing a Patronus at that age is supposed to be very exceptional and that she put in the bit about Hermione's and Cho's Patronus for fun and to indicate how it reflects their personalities. "cincimaelder" From erica at mindspring.com Thu Jul 15 15:46:13 2004 From: erica at mindspring.com (Erica Sadun) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:46:13 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: FF: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106425 >Dzeytoun wrote: >>>So perhaps a very good answer to what should be done about Severus >is that Dumbledore should hire another potions teacher in addition to >Snape.<< > >HunterGreen: >I'm guessing there isn't anyone. Potions is a very complex skill, and >Snape has been mentioned at least once as being superb at. Dumbledore >has been very stubborn about giving him the DADA job, but if there >was another potions teacher out there would he still call upon people >like Lockhart? Or in the case of OotP, if the MoM hadn't stepped in, >who would he have hired? He had no one. That's always been my >assumption about Snape, Dumbledore can't hire someone else because >there's isn't anyone else. Putting the helpfulness of Snape outside >teaching aside, why else would he hire an early-20s'(when he started)- >Ex DE-who hates children, to teach children? Hogwarts is full of bad teachers: Trelawney, Hagrid, Binns, to name just a few. Snape, however excellent he is at potents, is cruel--not a great advantage in pedagogy. One might think that Dumbledore has structured his school more on building character and a personal army than simply educating future wizards. -- Erica, who is not convinced that Snape wasn't Dumbledore's spy *before* joining the DEs From eeyore5497 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 16:25:16 2004 From: eeyore5497 at yahoo.com (Michelle Horcher) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:25:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Who would love Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040715162516.96316.qmail@web12205.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106426 sad1199 wrote: In an earlier post a quote from JKR was mentioned and part of it was "Who would (or could) love Snape?" Here's my idea of who would love Snape: She would be a very strong patient witch. Probably a Hufflepuff. We all hate (well, obviously I don't...) Snape because he is horrible to the hero Harry. It doesn't say that he is horrible to everybody, in fact he can be quite pleasant to members of his own house. Also, Snape cannot stand incompetence in others (Neville) because his father found only incompetence in him. I think that when it all comes to an end, he will be standing in victory with Harry and whomever else survives. Michelle replies: I entirely agree! I had a difficult time with Snape in the 1st 4 books. But in OoTP as Harry is studying Occlumency I began to feel a kind of respect for Severus. I don't necessarily agree with his methods but I began to understand WHY he behaves the way he does. I also feel that he has a kind of respect for Harry which utterly frustrates him because he still struggles with the memories of James and the strong similarites Harry has with his father. However, odd & uncomfortable their relationship, Harry & Severus are allies in the Order and I believe beneath the gruff exterior, Severus is trying to challenge Harry to make him stronger! A Hufflepuff, eh? Do you think Prof. Sprout? Nah... From floopy at shaw.ca Thu Jul 15 16:40:02 2004 From: floopy at shaw.ca (M) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:40:02 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cousins by marriage ? In-Reply-To: <20040715155441.20707.qmail@web42101.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040715155441.20707.qmail@web42101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <40F6B362.5070208@shaw.ca> No: HPFGUIDX 106427 > delwynmarch wrote: Sirius says he and Molly > are cousins by marriage. What does that mean? To me, that would mean > that one of the two married the other's cousin. But that's obviously > impossible. So what does it mean ? Eris: I was under the impression that the Weasleys and the Blacks were related and that Molly, once she married into the Weasleys, became a cousin-in-law. From OotP, Chapter 6, "The Most Noble And Ancient House Of Black": "'Molly and I are cousins by marriage and Arthur's something like my second cousin once removed. But there's no point looking for them on here - if ever a family was a bunch of blood traitors it's the Weasleys.'" So Molly was the one who married into the Weasleys, obviously, since she's a Prewett. And Arthur was the blood relative (although I'm not too clear on how this 'once removed' business works). Second cousins are basically the children of your parents' cousins - for example, if Sirius were to have a child, that child would be Tonks' second cousin since Tonks is the child of Andromeda, who is Sirius' cousin. Please note that the Weasley line has been blasted from the tapestry, and we know that the tapestry carries the Black family tree, so it's fair to assume that the Weasleys and Blacks (and incidentally, the Malfoys) are all related. Eris From kandbmom at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 16:26:32 2004 From: kandbmom at yahoo.com (Lisa) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:26:32 -0000 Subject: The Missing Guard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106428 Becki wrote: <...snip...> > But what about the OoP guard? The one that every one always took > in turn to guard the Department of Mysteries entrance? Perhaps they > were overthrown by a DE or two, but I would think that should have > been confirmed in the book. kandbmom: She doesn't mention about the OoP guard not being there. It is obvious that there is no security in the entire building because Harry thinks that someone will hear the elevator/lift to the DOM floor. We can guess that they were either killed by DEs or told to leave under the Imperius curse. Unless, whoever was to stand guard is a spy on the inside of the OoP, which is bound to happen at some point. kandbmom(who can't wait another 2 years for the book!!) From tzakis1225 at netzero.com Thu Jul 15 18:31:13 2004 From: tzakis1225 at netzero.com (demetra1225) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:31:13 -0000 Subject: Polyjuiced Hermione In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106429 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "coolbeans3131" wrote: > It also reminds me of Ron being left out of the Forbidden forest > scene in PS/SS. It didn't seem to change anything having Neville go > instead of Ron, but I did read one of the changes the editors wanted > her to make to SS/PS was to add more Neville. They really liked him, > (I love him myself :D) Demetra: If I'm thinking of the same scene, in PS/SS it was Harry, Hermione, Draco and Neville who serve their detention with Hagrid in the Forbidden Forest. They were being punished after being found out of bed the night Charlie's friends came to pick up Norbert. Ron wasn't with them that night because he was in the hospital wing with the dragon bite on his arm, so Ron didn't receive the detention. From eternal_riddle at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 16:49:33 2004 From: eternal_riddle at yahoo.com (Anastasia) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:49:33 -0000 Subject: Prophecies and Dobby In-Reply-To: <20040715044736.15432.qmail@webmail6.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106430 > - Paula: > - Didn't Dobby give Harry the Gillyweed at the last minute to dive into the lake in GoF? But then it occurred to me, wait a minute, of course Lucius would want Harry to survive this task to meet old Voldy in the cemetery. > Amey: > But by that time, Dobby was free, he was no longer serving Malfoy family. Or was he? Are you saying that Dobby was sent to Hogwarts to keep an eye on Harry and Dumbledore? eternal_riddle: At the end of CS, Lucius threw Harry's sock which Dobby caught. Therefore, he was FREE. He has a job at Hogwarts he is being PAID for. He isn't any longer a servant of the Malfoys. Hence he can't be working for them (unless you suppose he likes them and is a spy, what IMO is nonsense). Hope that does it. eternal_riddle From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 18:37:29 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:37:29 -0000 Subject: SHIP Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss In-Reply-To: <20040715153343.12904.qmail@web25303.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106431 Udderpd wrote 1st : > > >I agree that she would have to tell Ron in words of one syllable > > > > what she thinks of him for it to get through his thick head and I > > > believe that she would do this if she fancied him. Del replied : > > Uh ? You lost me there. Why would Hermione tell Ron in no uncertain > > terms to get lost (which is basically what I suggested) if she > > *fancied* him ? > > If she fancies him, she might *not* want to openly talk about it > > with Ron, especially considering that he doesn't seem ready to face > > his own feelings. Udderpd answered : > You are misconstruing what I wrote and I am sorry if I wasn't clear. > You have added a "to get lost" She wont tell him anything if she > doesn't fancy him she will only tell him anything if she likes him > and that would be that she likes him. Del replies : I added a "to get lost" because that was the original point : you asked : "I will ask what will she have to say to tell him I am not interested in you romanticly" to which I replied "State it clearly, any time he acts jealous ?" By the way, you are kind of contradicting by first asking what she should tell Ron to make him understand that she doesn't fancy him, and then saying that she won't say anything. And I already replied to your point of what and whether Hermione would tell Ron anything if she did fancy him : not necessarily. She might not want to act on her feelings right now, and she's aware that Ron hasn't faced his feelings for her yet. I, Del, wrote : > If Hermione simply doesn't fancy Ron, I see no reason why her telling > so should cause any rift in the Trio. Could you explain to me why it > would ? Udderpd answered : > So you are trying to tell me that Ron wasn't jealous of Krum going to > the ball with Hermione? His attitude is if I don't have any other > girl then Hermione should be mine, he cares not one jot what she > thinks. Del replies : First of, I don't think Ron wants Hermione by default. I think he's truly smitten with her and her only. Second, yes Ron is jealous, but I don't see that it's creating any rift in the Trio. Why should it be worse if Hermione made it clear that she doesn't fancy him back ? I, Del, wrote : > And I don't see why the fact that Hermione understands Harry should > mean that she has feelings for him. Or inversely either : having > feelings for Harry wouldn't necessarily mean understanding him. > Having feelings for someone and understanding them are two widely > different things, unfortunately too rarely connected. Udderpd answered : > Maybe the meaning you attribute to the word feelings is different to > mine. Del replies : When I used feelings in that paragraph, I meant fancy. In other words, to make it clear : I don't see why the fact that Hermione understands Harry should mean that she fancies him. Or inversely either : fancying Harry wouldn't necessarily mean understanding him. Fancying someone and understanding them are two widely different things, unfortunately too rarely connected. For example, my opinion right now is that Hermione understands Harry but she doesn't fancy him. Inversely, Ron fancies Hermione but he doesn't understand her. Udderpd wrote 1st: > > > I would be the last person to deny that Ron has feelings for or > > > fancied Hermione, but he must have she is one of his two best > > > friends and he doesn' know any other girls. The only other > > > females he interacts with socialy are his mother and sister and > > > his sister he is trying to turn into a female version of himself, > > > by forbiding her to talk socialy with boys. I, Del, answered : > > Harry's no better. He fell for a pretty face he didn't know, as he > > discovered when he found himself confronted to the prospect of a > > whole day in her sole company. Apart from Cho, the only girls he > > ever talks to are Hermione and Ginny. So according to your own > > reasoning, even if Harry discovered in himself feelings for either > > girl, that would be only because he doesn't know anyone else. Harry > > is just as clueless about love and girls as Ron is. Udderpd replied : > Stop trying to change the subject to Harry it doesn't hold up > Hermione, Ginny, Luna and Cho (these are the only ones I can remember > off the top of my head) are all potential girlfriends for Harry and > he has talked socialy to all of them. And I agree he still seems > clueless but his worry of Voldermort is kind of distracting and > inhibiting isn't it. Del replies : I am NOT changing the subject. We WERE discussing the potential emotional relationships between the Trio. You pointed out that Ron's limited interactions with girls pushed him to want the only female friend he's got. I find it a perfectly valid and timely thing to do to point out that Harry is almost exactly in the same situation and that your reasoning could therefore be applied to him too, should he start fancying Hermione. Hermione, Ginny, Luna, Cho : they are the only ones you can remember because they are indeed the only ones he's ever truly talked to. Harry has talked socially to them ? Hermione : yes. Ron too. Ginny : yes. Ron too. Actually Ron's had his sister in his life forever. If one boy should know more about girls than the other, it's Ron. Luna : she doesn't count yet, because Harry has barely started really *talking* to her by the end of OoP. Same for Ron. Cho : I would barely dare calling it "talking", and I don't think Harry learned much from her about girls, except that he really doesn't understand some of them. As for Harry being inhibited because of LV, I don't really agree either. Thoughts of LV never stopped him from dreaming of Cho. Udderpd wrote 1st: > > > It would be very easy to argue that his childishness after the > > > yule ball is him trying to treat Hermione the same way as he > > > treats Ginny and she's not having any of it. I, Del, replied : > > I completely disagree. Ron treats Ginny as his little baby girl, > > and is affronted that anyone could think of pure innocent little > > virgin angel Ginny as a young *woman*. On the other hand, Ron > > didn't even want to admit that Hermione was a girl. The two > > situations couldn't be more different. Udderpd answered : > Who are you trying to kidd? They are the same thing Ron doesn't know > any different. Del replies : If anyone is trying to kid anyone here, it's you. Ginny is Ron's little sister, Hermione is Ron's equal friend. Ginny is a little girl to protect from the big bad wolf, Hermione is one of the guys who had the treacherous idea of being born a girl. Nothing in common. Udderpd wrote 1st: > > > Let us not forget that Victor is Jealous of Harry not Ron > > > Hermione talked constantly of Harry when she was with Victor. I, Del, replied with no less than 5 different explanations for Viktor's jealousy. : Udderpd answered : > Occams razor the most lightly explanation is usually correct and I do > not believe that you really believe any other than the first > explanation, it is the only one that makes any sense. Del replies : 1. Stop kidding yourself and leave Occam's razor out of a lot of explanations just as likely one as the other. 2. Don't you dare telling me what I believe. Especially when you couldn't be more wrong : Hermione fancying Harry is in fact that explanation I believe *least* of the 5 I gave you. 3. If you think that an explanation doesn't make sense, then you'd better explain why, otherwise I'll just assume that you're voluntarily refusing it. Because you see, not only are each of my explanations sensible, but they actually happen in RL. Just look around you. Udderpd wrote 1st : > > > Ron needs to chat socialy with a lot more girls and then he might > > > learn about himself and (as much as any mere male can) about > > > girls. I, Del, replied : > > Considering how clueless he was about Cho, I'd say Harry had better > > do that too. Uddrepd answered : > Agreed but at least Harry has had some Ron has had none. In my honest > opinion Ron and Luna will make a fine couple. Del replies : Considering how big of a disaster the whole Cho/Harry story was, I wouldn't call that "having had some" (some what ?). Don't you remember that any time Cho and Harry tried to talk about anything else but Quidditch and other safe subjects, they got into a mighty stall ? Ron and Luna ? The way things are *now*, I don't think there could be a more mismatched couple. They would never even manage to be on the same "astral plane" so to speak. Not to mention that Ron wants very much to be accepted, to be "popular" in some way, and Luna is exactly the opposite of that. Del From jlawlor at gmail.com Thu Jul 15 17:10:10 2004 From: jlawlor at gmail.com (James Lawlor) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:10:10 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily's Eyes / Colour scheme in HP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96773c880407151010541ac9fe@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106432 Sandra: > But if anyone can add to the colour-scheme view of the books, I look > forward to read it. James: Just a little observation of my own I've ment to add: Voldermort's eyes (red) and Harry's eyes (green) are contrasting colors (opposite on the color wheel for those who haven't taken art class in awhile), as are some of the colors of Gryffindor and Slytherin. For that matter, the other two colors (gold and silver, respectively), while not opposites color-wise (to my knowledge anyway) are often seen as opposites and representing opposite things (sun and moon, etc). I hadn't thought of the fact that the eye colors of both Harry and Voldemort were also the colors of their "opposing house." It will be interesting to see if there's any meaning to that, or if it's more what you might call a "design choice" (just for the sake of not having all the same colors on each "side" - but if that were true, Harry would have to have red eyes, as green and silver are definitely colors that have to go with Slytherin and vice versa for Gryffindor - and that would be quite strange (as red eyes are almost always seen as being evil (example - Dracula), as far as I know). Probably nothing terribly important, but one of those nice little details that JKR seems to enjoy adding to her books. On an unrelated note: What in the world does ESE (example: ESE!Lupin) stand for? That's just about the one thing I haven't been able to figure out, so far. - James Lawlor jlawlor at gmail.com From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 18:45:42 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:45:42 -0000 Subject: Cousins by marriage ? In-Reply-To: <40F6B362.5070208@shaw.ca> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106433 > From OotP, Chapter 6, "The Most Noble And Ancient House Of Black": > > "'Molly and I are cousins by marriage and Arthur's something like my > second cousin once removed. But there's no point looking for them on > here - if ever a family was a bunch of blood traitors it's the > Weasleys.'" Eris wrote : > So Molly was the one who married into the Weasleys, obviously, since > she's a Prewett. And Arthur was the blood relative (although I'm not > too clear on how this 'once removed' business works). Del replies : I disagree. The way Sirius said it, just after explaining that all the pureblood families are inter-related and that this means that the choice of partner is very limited if your kids are to be pure-bloods too, I take it to mean that *both* Molly and Arthur are blood relatives to Sirius. Thanks for the explanation about second cousins though !! Del From allisonotto at gmail.com Thu Jul 15 17:27:34 2004 From: allisonotto at gmail.com (allison_m_otto) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:27:34 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss In-Reply-To: <20040715153343.12904.qmail@web25303.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106434 My two cents on Harry/Hermione/Ron (please bear in mind, I am at work, and my books are not): I think, throughout the first three books, that we get little sense that Hermione likes either boy more. Then in GoF we have the common room scene, where Ron brilliantly exclaims that Neville is right, she is a girl. Her response (which I'm pretty sure is a sarcastic "well spotted") is, I think, natural regardless of who made the comment. Obviously she's a girl, and she would think anyone who said this was an idiot. I do think that the scene after the ball is telling, however. IMO, when she says next time he should ask her first, and not as a last resort, she *is* revealing her feelings. First of all, she's responding to Ron's anger over her going with Krum. He didn't actually say that she should have gone with him (Ron) instead, but she (IMO) correctly realizes that's what he's really saying. And what she's saying is that she would have gone with Ron if he'd asked her. She's also revealing that she's quite upset to have been the "last resort." From my own experience with dances, etc., if a guy you don't like asks you to something as a last resort, you're going to be mildly offended but probably won't care too much. You *would* care if you had a crush on that guy, but he asked everyone else in the class first. In other words, if it's about going to a dance as "just friends," I think Hermione would feel like "idiot, I'm right here and I clean up okay, really." But if it's about more than friends, she would feel really upset because asking her as a last resort means he doesn't return her feelings. (I think he does, but that he hasn't realized it yet). Illustration - yes, she knows Harry likes Cho, but she also knows (hears) that she turned him down. Does she get mad at Harry for not asking her next? Lastly, the conversation in OotP. I read Hermione's attitude (in her "of course you're not") as just giving feminine advice with no ulterior motive. First of all, she was half-listening - if she liked him and was hearing about his kissing another girl, she'd be more invested. She was "brisk" when she asked if they kissed, but I read that as just trying to get to the point so they could go back to what they were doing. Then she tells Ron he's an insensitive wart and he has the emotional range of a teaspoon (which I also thought was hilarious). I don't think she's saying, "this is why I don't like you." I think she's saying "you're such a typical boy." (remember, Harry also hasn't figured out why Cho cried). IMO, this line shows her frustration with Ron for not "getting" emotional things. Why is she frustrated? (again, IMO) Because she can tell he likes her, he's so jealous of Krum (and even of the possibility that she might have kissed Harry), but he Won't. Do. Anything. About. It. I think she's mad at him for not waking up and realizing he likes her. She's been waiting since the Yule Ball, but he's not showing much sign of self-awareness. I think Hermione loves Harry dearly as a brother, which is why she's much more tolerant of his being a clueless boy and helps him instead of getting annoyed. Personally I don't care whether my close male friends understand me as a female, but I rather expect it of my boyfriend (who sometimes reads this list - so - um - hi!). Sorry for the length - believe it or not, I did cut a lot. -Allison From submarimon15 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 17:35:42 2004 From: submarimon15 at yahoo.com (Mike) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:35:42 -0000 Subject: Death Eaters in the DOM In-Reply-To: <001c01c46a67$5e7c0ba0$37c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106435 Cathy a.k.a. DuffyPoo now: > I think there were 10 DE's in the Death Chamber: > "He [Harry] looked up and saw the five who had been in the Brain Room descending towards him, while as many more emerged through other doorways and began leaping from bench to bench towards him." The only five we *know* are there are the five you named above. Mike: True, but it makes sense if you read the final battle. Everyone from the Order is engaged in combat except Tonks, who is described as firing shots at Bellatrix. Kingsley makes up for this by dueling two at once. Dolohov and Bellatrix are already unmasked while Lucius, MacNair and Rookwood all get unmasked during the battle. There is no mention of any un-named DE's fighting here, but sure, it is a possibility. From submarimon15 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 18:02:38 2004 From: submarimon15 at yahoo.com (Mike) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:02:38 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: In-Reply-To: <20040715170826.66966.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106436 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Regina Olshan wrote: > I would still be interested to know whether it is the > view of those who do not believe R/H have feelings for > each other, that JKK does not know/care that this is > being presented to the contrary in the movies? I > cannot believe that. Mike: I believe even the most diehard H/Hr shippers (myself included) will admit that Ron fancies Hermione. However, it really doesn't appear as though Hermione feels this way back. (This from book canon anyways). The the PoA movie, Hermione has a few scenes where she grabs Ron's hand, hugs him and a few more things. Conversely, she does this to Harry a lot too. I noticed this the first time, and when I went to see it a second time, I realized the number of times she shows affection for Ron, she does an equal number of times for Harry. My reaction was "blast, way to still keep it hidden." Regina: > I think movies may be consistent with either R/H > outcome or current R/H interest which ultimately > changes for some reason to lead to a different outcome > (H/H or other) but is not consistent and cannot be > made consistent with the "no R/H interest" theory. Mike: The movies may be consistent with R/H because they, like us, have no idea how the series is going to end. Once again, avid H/Hr shippers will realize that the Ron/Hermione bickering and his blatant affection towards Hermione is rather obvious. You can either make a movie with small subtle things that hint to H/Hr, or you can go with the obvious looking one. I myself however, still don't think the movies show anything either way at this point. Regina: > I lean strongly toward ultimate R/H BECAUSE I do not > believe romance will play a major part in remaining > books. Doing an R/H reversal and H/H coming together > would still be very possible, but would take a fair > amount of space/plot to getting there. R/H would take > nothing more than a brief moment of realization (could > even be offstage). The latter seems more consistent > with the build-up and with the series focus. > > Regina Mike: H/Hr has more groundwork already layed than most people realize it seems. There have been lots of little things that take quite a bit of thought and many readings to see. You may think "I've heard that before", but it's true. I'd suggest you read the essays "Love Interrupted: A Theory" and "Love Foretold in Runes and in the Heavens" on www.symbolic-flight.org (Home of the ship HMS Harmony :)) to see why we really haven't realized the groundwork, and then one of the more symbolic things that I never realized until reading that essay. Mike, who believes that the PoA movie made sure to hide the relationships From dzeytoun at cox.net Thu Jul 15 18:12:22 2004 From: dzeytoun at cox.net (dzeytoun at cox.net) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:12:22 -0400 Subject: JKR and the Snape/Harry dynamic Message-ID: <20040715181224.PQHO13743.lakermmtao08.cox.net@smtp.east.cox.net> No: HPFGUIDX 106437 Over on SugarQuill, someone made a very good point that, as we speculate about Snape and Harry and what may or may not happen, we may be making a bad mistake. That is, we are assuming that JKR finds the Harry/Snape dynamic as interesting as we do. In fact, there is plentiful evidence that she does not - largely because she does not seem to find Snape to be that interesting of an individual. Therefore, I hate to say it, but everybody arguing strongly on all sides of the fight may well end up disappointed that JKR does not give this dynamic the prominence, or the type of spectacular ending, we would desire. Dzeytoun From dzeytoun at cox.net Thu Jul 15 18:24:30 2004 From: dzeytoun at cox.net (dzeytoun at cox.net) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:24:30 -0400 Subject: Dumbledore as a parental figure for Snape Message-ID: <20040715182432.OESP6333.lakermmtao02.cox.net@smtp.east.cox.net> No: HPFGUIDX 106438 Some discussion has played out in various groups about the possibility, or probability, that Dumbledore serves as something of a parental figure for Snape. I think this raises some interesting interpretations of various policies on Dumbledore's part. Parents, when they make a mistake with one of their children, often try desperately to rectify it, only to end up making more mistakes in the process. This could well describe much of the dynamic between Dumbledore and Snape. Dumbledore may well feel very guilty with regard to Severus. After all, much of Severus' bitterness is founded in an incident where he feels, with good reason, that the Marauders tried to murder him. Dumbledore did not see it that way, and essentially let them off the hook, thus engendering deep, and perhaps unhealable, wounds in Severus. As often happens, Dumbledore, conscious of his first mistake, now proceeds to make others in an attempt to make amends. He gives Severus shelter and provides him with great leeway in an attempt to let him reach some equilibrium. But, as he said, some wounds go too deep for the healing. Or, maybe a better way to put it is that some wounds go too deep for the healing THAT WAY. Severus really doesn't need leniency and breathing room, he needs someone he trusts to work with him long and hard to try and make him understand that his attitudes (towards Harry, Gryffindors, Sirius, the world in general) are not only wrong, they are self-destructive. But Dumbledore is likely too guilt-ridden to take on that role, as he is responsible for so much of Severus' hurt to begin with. And there is no one else that Snape trusts enough to fulfill that function. Just a few thoughts on the possibility and implications thereof. Dzeytoun From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Thu Jul 15 19:17:55 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 19:17:55 -0000 Subject: SHHermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: In-Reply-To: <20040715170826.66966.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106439 > Regina wrote: > I lean strongly toward ultimate R/H BECAUSE I do not > believe romance will play a major part in remaining > books. Doing an R/H reversal and H/H coming together > would still be very possible, but would take a fair > amount of space/plot to getting there. R/H would take > nothing more than a brief moment of realization (could > even be offstage). The latter seems more consistent > with the build-up and with the series focus. boyd: Or Jo could kill Ron! :o Actually, though, I agree with you about romance not playing a major part in 6 & 7. I mean, why should it? JKR has plenty of other loose ends to tidy up before this series is done without having to revisit romance. Unless she uses it to distract us from the real plot.... [A Low, Raspy Voice Breaks In] "On the fifth month, she with the spiky purple hair will disguise herself as the One's best friend's true love and give the One to the Dark Lord, and the greatest wizard of our time will die saving the One. Then he who has left the Dark Lord forever will forcibly take the One to safety. And there will be much apologizing, and perhaps some tea and crumpets." [Translation: Tonks will disguise herself as Hermione, woo Harry enough to lure him to LV, then Snape will jet in to drag Harry away to safety as LV kills DD] huh? --boyd who skirted dangerously close to a SHIPping discussion there, but was fortuitously interrupted by Trelawney's third, and very suspect, prediction. or that might have been Forge wearing lots of jewelry and makeup. Not sure. From doliesl at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 19:37:52 2004 From: doliesl at yahoo.com (Dolies) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:37:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Still wondering why Snape trusts DD! (was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040715193752.12867.qmail@web13704.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106440 --- cubfanbudwoman wrote: > SSSusan: > I'm sorry, but I don't think the reference to a debt is enough to > explain it. I think Kneasy's right--there has to be a REASON why > Snape, who was surely profoundly disappointed & angry that DD didn't > punish the Marauders after the prank, DID end up trusting DD enough > to return to his fold. I see the reason Snape trust DD as something very fundamental and basic: because DD trusts him. It's a gut feeling I got when in GOF when Snape was confronted by fake Moody, Snape retorted fake Moody's accusation with a blunt "Dumbledore trust me!" (reminds me OOTP's DD shutting up Harry's accusation with "I trust Severus Snape"). That just do not feel like the type of bond that suggest any debt or bargain. Sometimes it is just that pure and simple. JKR revealed a little in recent chat that Snape gave DD his story and DD believes it. That "DD believes it" might be the IT that turns Snape completely around and wanted to work for someone who, despite his past sins, is willing to trust him. It goes along well with Snape's redemptive patterns. As a bitter and lonely sinner who doesn't have much love and trust in his life, DD's trust is the kind of motivation that kept him going in struggling to doing right (=to redeem his past). DD is the only person who's willing to believe in the best of him, his ability and his worth (while the world are all like Harry, who refuse to see him besides ESE), and that saids a lot to somebody who is still haunted by the baggage from the past, who is still struggling with his own demon (my guess on why DD won't give him DADA) and has so much insecurity and hate bottled up inside. Maybe it's just my wishful thinking, I see the theme of DD's trust (of Hagrid, Lupin, etc.) as one of the ongoing themes of the book and I hoped for a positive, powerful and rewarding conclusion. There's just something very powerful about DD's trust. D. From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Thu Jul 15 19:48:43 2004 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 19:48:43 -0000 Subject: The Virtues of Hufflepuff House and Cedric Diggory (Was: Snape and . . .cour In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106441 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > Well, she's the one who had a kid (Neville ?) say that "Hufflepuff > wouldn't be too bad", and Hagrid call the Hufflepuffs "a load of > duffers" (might not be exact quotes, but I'm sure I'm not very far), > right back in PS/SS. Hickengruendler: The only student whom I remember saying something negative about Hufflepuff is Draco. And I doubt we should see him as a moral instance. Hagrid said that people say Hufflepuffs were duffers. I never thought that it was Hagrid's opinion as well. > Then in CoS, Ernie's bunch of Hufflepuffs appear quite stupid, coward > and even ridiculous for believing so easily that Harry is the Heir of > Slytherin and for making up huge stories about Harry and Justin. Ernie didn't seem to me like a coward at all. He shielded Justin with his body when he thought Harry would attack him. That's actually quite brave. So they didn't believe Harry. That is true for most of the students either in CS or in OotP. In OotP Ernie defended him anyway. And in the end four Hufflepuffs and two Ravenclaws saved him from Draco. > Then of course there's simply the way the few Hufflepuffs we know are > described : Justin the bubbling Muggle quasi-aristocrat or obvious > queer figure, Ernie the New Percy, Hannah Abbott and her pigtails. Justin as obvious queer figure? Just because he liked Lockhart? Than I could argue that Colin is also an obvious queer figure, because he follows Harry always around, while Justin just mentions one time how great Lockhart is. Even if Justin were gay, I don't know what this should say about the portrayal of the Hufflepuffs and why this should be negative. I like Ernie. I think he is one of the most real and most alive characters in the whole series. In my opinion, he is, by far, the liveliest and most realistic minor character in the whole series, with all his strengths and flaws. > And of course Cedric "pretty boy" Diggory. We readers might be aware > that Cedric is really a neat person, but Harry's (and the other > Gryffindors, in particular the twins) constant dislike of him is > *bound* to have an effect on our judgement after a while. Really? I disagree. I think it was obvious that Cedric has done nothing wrong and that Harry's and the twins reaction were clouded by jealousy and a grudge, because he dared to beat Gryffindor in Quidditch and in Harry's case because he loved Cho. Now, I don't care much for Cedric, because he is too perfect to be real in my opinion. But I don't think that we are supposed to agree with Harry or even the twins about Cedric. In PoA, JKR even emphasized, that Cedric wanted a repeat of the game, although he had won. > > And then in OoP, we get Zacharias Smith ! We also get Marietta Edgecome. And it wasn't Zacharias, who betrayed the DA. > So yes, I think it is quite obvious that JKR intended for us to have > little consideration for the Hufflepuffs. Now, why ever she would do > that, I have no idea, but the proofs are there. > > Del I disagree completely. I think she intended to show us that there is a prejudice against Hufflepuff in the wizarding world, but I do not think, that it is JKR's opinion, or that we are supposed to agree with the wizarding world's opinion about Hufflepuff. Hickengruendler From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 15 20:01:00 2004 From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 21:01:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040715200100.60274.qmail@web25301.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106442 delwynmarch wrote: Udderpd wrote 1st : > > >I agree that she would have to tell Ron in words of one syllable > > > > what she thinks of him for it to get through his thick head and I > > > believe that she would do this if she fancied him. Del replied : > > Uh ? You lost me there. Why would Hermione tell Ron in no uncertain > > terms to get lost (which is basically what I suggested) if she > > *fancied* him ? > > If she fancies him, she might *not* want to openly talk about it > > with Ron, especially considering that he doesn't seem ready to face > > his own feelings. Udderpd answered : > You are misconstruing what I wrote and I am sorry if I wasn't clear. > You have added a "to get lost" She wont tell him anything if she > doesn't fancy him she will only tell him anything if she likes him > and that would be that she likes him. Del replies : I added a "to get lost" because that was the original point : you asked : "I will ask what will she have to say to tell him I am not interested in you romanticly" to which I replied "State it clearly, any time he acts jealous ?" By the way, you are kind of contradicting by first asking what she should tell Ron to make him understand that she doesn't fancy him, and then saying that she won't say anything. And I already replied to your point of what and whether Hermione would tell Ron anything if she did fancy him : not necessarily. She might not want to act on her feelings right now, and she's aware that Ron hasn't faced his feelings for her yet. I, Del, wrote : > If Hermione simply doesn't fancy Ron, I see no reason why her telling > so should cause any rift in the Trio. Could you explain to me why it > would ? Udderpd answered : > So you are trying to tell me that Ron wasn't jealous of Krum going to > the ball with Hermione? His attitude is if I don't have any other > girl then Hermione should be mine, he cares not one jot what she > thinks. Del replies : First of, I don't think Ron wants Hermione by default. I think he's truly smitten with her and her only. Second, yes Ron is jealous, but I don't see that it's creating any rift in the Trio. Why should it be worse if Hermione made it clear that she doesn't fancy him back ? I, Del, wrote : > And I don't see why the fact that Hermione understands Harry should > mean that she has feelings for him. Or inversely either : having > feelings for Harry wouldn't necessarily mean understanding him. > Having feelings for someone and understanding them are two widely > different things, unfortunately too rarely connected. Udderpd answered : > Maybe the meaning you attribute to the word feelings is different to > mine. Del replies : When I used feelings in that paragraph, I meant fancy. In other words, to make it clear : I don't see why the fact that Hermione understands Harry should mean that she fancies him. Or inversely either : fancying Harry wouldn't necessarily mean understanding him. Fancying someone and understanding them are two widely different things, unfortunately too rarely connected. For example, my opinion right now is that Hermione understands Harry but she doesn't fancy him. Inversely, Ron fancies Hermione but he doesn't understand her. Udderpd wrote 1st: > > > I would be the last person to deny that Ron has feelings for or > > > fancied Hermione, but he must have she is one of his two best > > > friends and he doesn' know any other girls. The only other > > > females he interacts with socialy are his mother and sister and > > > his sister he is trying to turn into a female version of himself, > > > by forbiding her to talk socialy with boys. I, Del, answered : > > Harry's no better. He fell for a pretty face he didn't know, as he > > discovered when he found himself confronted to the prospect of a > > whole day in her sole company. Apart from Cho, the only girls he > > ever talks to are Hermione and Ginny. So according to your own > > reasoning, even if Harry discovered in himself feelings for either > > girl, that would be only because he doesn't know anyone else. Harry > > is just as clueless about love and girls as Ron is. Udderpd replied : > Stop trying to change the subject to Harry it doesn't hold up > Hermione, Ginny, Luna and Cho (these are the only ones I can remember > off the top of my head) are all potential girlfriends for Harry and > he has talked socialy to all of them. And I agree he still seems > clueless but his worry of Voldermort is kind of distracting and > inhibiting isn't it. Del replies : I am NOT changing the subject. We WERE discussing the potential emotional relationships between the Trio. You pointed out that Ron's limited interactions with girls pushed him to want the only female friend he's got. I find it a perfectly valid and timely thing to do to point out that Harry is almost exactly in the same situation and that your reasoning could therefore be applied to him too, should he start fancying Hermione. Hermione, Ginny, Luna, Cho : they are the only ones you can remember because they are indeed the only ones he's ever truly talked to. Harry has talked socially to them ? Hermione : yes. Ron too. Ginny : yes. Ron too. Actually Ron's had his sister in his life forever. If one boy should know more about girls than the other, it's Ron. Luna : she doesn't count yet, because Harry has barely started really *talking* to her by the end of OoP. Same for Ron. Cho : I would barely dare calling it "talking", and I don't think Harry learned much from her about girls, except that he really doesn't understand some of them. As for Harry being inhibited because of LV, I don't really agree either. Thoughts of LV never stopped him from dreaming of Cho. Udderpd wrote 1st: > > > It would be very easy to argue that his childishness after the > > > yule ball is him trying to treat Hermione the same way as he > > > treats Ginny and she's not having any of it. I, Del, replied : > > I completely disagree. Ron treats Ginny as his little baby girl, > > and is affronted that anyone could think of pure innocent little > > virgin angel Ginny as a young *woman*. On the other hand, Ron > > didn't even want to admit that Hermione was a girl. The two > > situations couldn't be more different. Udderpd answered : > Who are you trying to kidd? They are the same thing Ron doesn't know > any different. Del replies : If anyone is trying to kid anyone here, it's you. Ginny is Ron's little sister, Hermione is Ron's equal friend. Ginny is a little girl to protect from the big bad wolf, Hermione is one of the guys who had the treacherous idea of being born a girl. Nothing in common. Udderpd wrote 1st: > > > Let us not forget that Victor is Jealous of Harry not Ron > > > Hermione talked constantly of Harry when she was with Victor. I, Del, replied with no less than 5 different explanations for Viktor's jealousy. : Udderpd answered : > Occams razor the most lightly explanation is usually correct and I do > not believe that you really believe any other than the first > explanation, it is the only one that makes any sense. Del replies : 1. Stop kidding yourself and leave Occam's razor out of a lot of explanations just as likely one as the other. 2. Don't you dare telling me what I believe. Especially when you couldn't be more wrong : Hermione fancying Harry is in fact that explanation I believe *least* of the 5 I gave you. 3. If you think that an explanation doesn't make sense, then you'd better explain why, otherwise I'll just assume that you're voluntarily refusing it. Because you see, not only are each of my explanations sensible, but they actually happen in RL. Just look around you. Udderpd wrote 1st : > > > Ron needs to chat socialy with a lot more girls and then he might > > > learn about himself and (as much as any mere male can) about > > > girls. I, Del, replied : > > Considering how clueless he was about Cho, I'd say Harry had better > > do that too. Uddrepd answered : > Agreed but at least Harry has had some Ron has had none. In my honest > opinion Ron and Luna will make a fine couple. Del replies : Considering how big of a disaster the whole Cho/Harry story was, I wouldn't call that "having had some" (some what ?). Don't you remember that any time Cho and Harry tried to talk about anything else but Quidditch and other safe subjects, they got into a mighty stall ? Ron and Luna ? The way things are *now*, I don't think there could be a more mismatched couple. They would never even manage to be on the same "astral plane" so to speak. Not to mention that Ron wants very much to be accepted, to be "popular" in some way, and Luna is exactly the opposite of that. Udderpd again Hermione, Ginny, Luna and Cho are all acceptable dates for Harry and he has had meaningful conversations with all of them and I grant that the one with Cho was about Quidditch. Ron talks to Hermione. Maybe Cho would suit Ron she likes Quidditch Hermione certainly doesn't. and her nose is straight and she is pretty. Thats practically a full house for Ron. Can she cook? TTFN Udder Pen Dragon ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hallisallimalli at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 17:59:06 2004 From: hallisallimalli at yahoo.com (halli) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:59:06 -0000 Subject: Dobby redux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106443 > Kneasy: > Headlines in the Daily Prophet: > "Daughter of Ministry Employee Dies Using Dark Magic Artifact That > Unleashes Monster On Fellow Students." > > Arthurs credibility would be shot - and he's a major DD supporter > in the Ministry. > > Presumably Tom stays out of the limelight and doesn't claim any > of the credit. Why should he? Presumably he's not there to take > centre stage - he'll have other fish to fry, other dirty deeds to > perform. Halli: "A clever plan," said Dumbledore. "Because if Harry here and his friend Ron hadn't discovered this book, why - Ginny Weasley might have taken all the blame. No one would ever have been able to prove she hadn't acted of her own free will...." "And imagine," ... "Imagine the effect on Arthur Weasley and his Muggle- Protection Act, if his own daughter was discovered attacking and killing muggle-borns..." From doliesl at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 20:08:05 2004 From: doliesl at yahoo.com (doliesl) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:08:05 -0000 Subject: JKR and the Snape/Harry dynamic In-Reply-To: <20040715181224.PQHO13743.lakermmtao08.cox.net@smtp.east.cox.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106444 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Over on SugarQuill, someone made a very good point that, as we speculate about Snape and Harry and what may or may not happen, we may be making a bad mistake. That is, we are assuming that JKR finds the Harry/Snape dynamic as interesting as we do. In fact, there is plentiful evidence that she does not - largely because she does not seem to find Snape to be that interesting of an individual. Therefore, I hate to say it, but everybody arguing strongly on all sides of the fight may well end up disappointed that JKR does not give this dynamic the prominence, or the type of spectacular ending, we would desire. What "plentiful evidence" may I ask? Can you list them, or were they only your own interpretation? Maybe you're only imposing your own feelings on authorial intention? I thought JKR expressed the very opposite in her interview. JKR said repeatly on many occasion that she really likes Snape as a character, really enjoys writing Snape, love doing horrible things to him, etc. And in her view Snape is complex and quite (my own input=P: deliciously ) nasty. So...errrr...that should say something about she found Snape *interesting* to certain degree don't you think? If she has no interest in this character, why set him up as an ongoing mystery throughout 7 books? So yes I disagree with you. And what confirms my believe? It was the kind of sceanrios she setup between the two that always screams strong but conflicting emotions from "giggling amusing YEEEES to horror OH GOD NO~". For instant in OOTP, when Molly informed Harry "Professor Snape wants to see you in the kitchen," Harry was concerntrating in his game of chess and didn't hear correctly and reacted a minute too late, "what??" Then the two boys anguished in horror "what does he want with you?" There's just something very classic "love/hate" scenario there. D. From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 20:34:08 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:34:08 -0000 Subject: Death Eaters in DoM - The Baby Head? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106445 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > Mike: > > ...edited... > "Go right" and "go left" to me just meant that there happened to be > a door to the left and to the right of where the group was standing. > However, I think it's safe to assume that other exits didn't have > convienent directions such as left and right (other than Straight > through there). "Go here" to me indicates the door may have been at > a position such as "5 O'clock" rather than an easy place to > describe. Asian_lovr2: I certainly admit I am using a very healthy dose of interpretation and assumption here. First, let's remember that the DE's are not in the 'round' room, they are in an extremely long rectangular room (Hall of Prophecies) that presumably, relative to this discussion, has a equally long row of doors along one side, the side from which Harry/Hermione/Neville entered the 'Time Room'. With the mental image of the DE's standing along one side of a long rectangular room, 'go right' and 'go left' do imply some distance. 'Go right', to me implies, some distance, 'to the right' implies less distance, and 'on the right' implies even less distance. 'Go here' implies less distance than 'go there'; 'go there' implies go away for 'here'. Avery is sent 'here' and Rookwood is sent 'there'. Repeating myself, the implication is the Avery was send 'here' (near-by) and Rookwood was sent away from 'here' to over 'there'. Admitedly, in this case, even if I am right, the distance between 'here' and 'there' is not great. Visualizing the room, and looking at all the instructions as a whole, the 'Left' and 'Right' DE's seem to be sent to the most distant points; more distant than 'here', 'there', 'straight ahead', and 'with me'. > > Steve again: > > So given the implied proximity, and that we know Jugson and > >Dolohov come into the room as the second pair of DE's, that leaves > > us with Macnair and Avery as one pair, and Malfoy and Mulciber as > > the other. > > Mike: > > I'm rather confused by this because there are only 2 pairs of DE's > that fight with Harry/Hermione/Neville. The first group is > completely un-named and one of them gets their head turned into a > baby's. The second group is Antonin Dolohov and Jugson (it's safe to > assume the second is Jugson). When you say "Macnair and Avery as one > pair with Malfoy and Mulciber as another" that's already two pairs, > where do Dolohov and Jugson fit in? > > ...edited... > > Mike Asian_lovr2: Sorry, Mike, very poor wording on my part. Using my method, we seem to have 3 pair of DEs whose proximity is implied as being close, and so are likely candidates are - - Jugson, Dolohov, ...straight ahead - Macnair and Avery, through here - Malfoy and Mulciber; 'Come with me' >From this group of possibilities, Jugson and Dolohov can be eliminated from the 'Baby-Head' list because Dolohov's were-abouts are accounted for; he's the one who 'purple-slashed' Hermione. So, as pairs who are likely, based on implied proximity, the 'Baby-Head' pair is likely to be (Macnair/Avery*) OR (Malfoy/Mulciber*). {*=Baby-head} Note, that of all the proximity words, 'through here' implies the closest location, and to me, re-enforces Macnair/Avery* are the first two DE's into the room, and by extention makes Avery the 'baby-hed'. As far as the muscular reference, I guess we need to temper that by remembering that it is from the perspective of an admitedly skinny 15 year old boy combined with the disporportionate perspective of a baby's head on any full grown man. I'm not saying I'm right, just that I had a premise about implied proximity that /could/ lead us to the answer or aid in the analysis. Using that premise and my analysis/interpretation, I arrived at this conclusion. A conclusion, that is similar to your own but for different reasons. I think my mistake was using 'AND' instead of 'OR', and not wording things more clearly. Overal, and upon re-analysing it for this post, I am even more strongly convinced the 'Baby-head' DE is Avery. Just a thought. Steve/asian_lovr2 From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 20:41:11 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:41:11 -0000 Subject: JKR and the Snape/Harry dynamic In-Reply-To: <20040715181224.PQHO13743.lakermmtao08.cox.net@smtp.east.cox.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106447 > Dzeytoun wrote: > Over on SugarQuill, someone made a very good point that, as we speculate about Snape and Harry and what may or may not happen, we may be making a bad mistake. That is, we are assuming that JKR finds the Harry/Snape dynamic as interesting as we do. In fact, there is plentiful evidence that she does not - largely because she does not seem to find Snape to be that interesting of an individual. Therefore, I hate to say it, but everybody arguing strongly on all sides of the fight may well end up disappointed that JKR does not give this dynamic the prominence, or the type of spectacular ending, we would desire.> Neri adds: I think this is very true, and not only in regard to Snape, but also in regard to most other characters. I was just bitching the other day about two of my favorite characters (Ron and Ginny) not getting the attention and treatment that I believe they deserve. By now each of us has his favorite characters, and we tend to forget that, if we like it or not, HP is a story about... Harry Potter. Everybody else is just secondary. The problem is even worse because the story is described almost exclusively from the point-of-view of Harry. I can't think of any other literature work with so many characters that is described from the POV of a single character. There's just no way he can be everywhere and interact with everybody and see everything. And if he doesn't see it, we don't see it either. The epilog chapter will be necessary to tie many open ends, but even so there will be many disappointed fans. Neri From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Thu Jul 15 20:45:23 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:45:23 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP:Hermione's feelings for Ron in OotP (Was : Re: Harry's first Kiss) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106448 Anasazi "'I've been wanting that New Theory of Numerology for ages! And that perfume's really UNUSUAL, Ron.'" Gina: Now girls lets be honest shall we? If your secret crush gave you an old sock (assuming you are not a house elf) you would say "Oh, it's lovely" no matter what because this is not a gift from your husband of 20 years but of a love that you alone know about and that you probably wonder if he feels the same so ANY gift would be great whether you really wanted it or not and you would make quite the fuss over it THUS "I've been wanting a sock like that for ages!" You would not say "that sock is really UNUSUAL". * Gina - who still has a rock painted like a gold nugget a sweetie gave her in 7th grade even with all the paint gone [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 20:43:21 2004 From: ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com (ohneill_2001) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:43:21 -0000 Subject: SHIP:Hermione's feelings for Ron in OotP (Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106449 > pippin_999 wrote: > > I agree. There's also Hermione's reaction to Ron's gift of > > perfume. She said it was "interesting." Then Anasazi: > "'I've been wanting that New Theory of Numerology for ages! And that > perfume's really UNUSUAL, Ron.'" > Now Cory: I had never really thought about the significance of the Christmas presents before, but since you two pointed it out, I'll add my .02. I think the gifts could cut either way in the 'shipping debate. Ron got Hermione a gift that he thought was "romantic," even though it might not have been one that she liked or one that fit her personality (we don't know whether Hermione even wears perfume, do we?) On the other hand, Harry got her a gift that is not romantic, but which is something that he knew she would like. While this might suggest "just friends," it might also suggest that he is more in tune with Hermione than Ron is. As an aside, I would also add Hermione's birthday gift to Harry in Book 3 to the discussion (when, instead of a book, which he expected from her, she gave him a broom servicing kit, which he liked.) --Cory From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Jul 15 20:56:01 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:56:01 -0000 Subject: The Virtues of Hufflepuff House and Cedric Diggory (Was: Snape and . . .cour In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106450 HunterGreen: > The sad thing is that Cedric was always looked upon as such > a "surprise" in a way to the Hufflepuff house (which as its said > over and over again in GoF, hardly ever gets any glory). The > general attitude in the books is that being a Hufflepuff is > nothing to be proud of. And I wonder how much of that is JKR's > intention. PK: JKR probably does mean to indicate that a lot of people > look down on Hufflepuffs. I also would say that she means they are > *wrong*. The qualities she gives Hufflepuff in sorting are almost > unequivocally positive (in a general way: obviously anything taken > to extremes or pointed the wrong way can have a dark side). It's > Helga she gives the sort of inclusive admissions policy Dumbledore > favors -- and while I've seen people suggest Helga's emphasis on > loyalty is sinister, I really don't think that's how it's > presented. Jen: First my bias: Since I've been sorted into Hufflepuff and am a social worker in RL, I tend to be partial toward Helga and the Hufflepuffs--they seem like my kind of people :). And I totally agree with PK here, that not only was Helga inclusive like Dumbledore, but that most of the students we meet in Hufflepuff seem to be high achievers, and decent people as well. Cedric is the most obvious, we get to hear about his skills at Quidditch, good looks, intelligence, etc., but perhaps his greatest strength is one Harry doesn't realize until the end--he's willing to sacrifice personal glory to do the right thing. Ernie and Hannah are also depicted as serious about their studies, and Ernie is willing to stand up for Harry when very few people were openly doing so. Zacharias Smith is merely proof that every house has a few arrogant blokes! To some of the Hufflepuffs, Harry & Ron are probably self-absorbed, arrogant blokes too. > Del: > > So yes, I think it is quite obvious that JKR intended for us to > > have little consideration for the Hufflepuffs. Now, why ever she > > would do that, I have no idea, but the proofs are there. > PK: > I think it's clear that she means for much of the wizarding world > to have little consideration for the Hufflepuffs, and that the > probable reason is that Hufflepuff virtues are simply not the > terribly flashy kind or the most fun. They're harder to appreciate > *in oneself* than the rest, especially for the immature; they may > tend to be more often the wind beneath wings than the eagle. > Utterly necessary, but invisible. Jen: Couldn't agree more, PK, with the general WW view of Hufflepuffs. But I do think JKR failed if she thinks the examples of Cedric, Ernie and Hannah come across as duffers. Maybe she intends the reader to look beyond Harry's POV here and see things as they are, rather than taking his opinion as fact (and his opinion does waver; in GOF he grew to admire Cedric and in OOTP he was glad to get Ernie's support). Jen Reese From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Thu Jul 15 20:55:10 2004 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:55:10 -0000 Subject: Harry and Hagrid (re: Two Crazy Theories) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106451 Harry and Hagrid Ten days ago, Hans wrote in a post titled "Two Crazy Theories": Right at the end of my essay I state: "The emotional ego is situated in the inner sanctuary of heart, the temple-tomb of Venus. Harry will no doubt enter this room and, like CRC, he will be punished by becoming a gatekeeper (and yet coming home)." Here the temple-tomb of Venus is represented in HP as the Room of Love in the MoM. But in the next paragraph I write: "Harry will pass through the Gate of Saturn ? not to die the ordinary death of us who are shackled to the wheel of reincarnation, but the death of total self-sacrifice.." So what I'm saying is that Harry will die, and yet he'll become gate- keeper. I must admit I couldn't visualise how, in a practical sense, Harry could be made gate-keeper, until my wife pointed out Hagrid's official title, which he tells Harry when they first meet in PS: "Keeper of the Keys and Grounds at Hogwarts". That's it! Harry will become Keeper of the Keys, i.e. Gatekeeper at Hogwarts. He will take over Hagrid's job! So Harry will die, and take over Hagrid's job. Does sound rather crazy, doesn't it. Yet that is what will happen as indicated by the Alchemical Wedding. Hi Hans, Your theory doesn't sound crazy to me. First, because I think it's logical if Harry's story ends `at Hagrid's': Hagrid is the one who introduced `literally' Harry in the series, when he brought him to Privet Drive. To us readers, it started `with Hagrid', so It would be normal if it happened to finish `with Hagrid', or at least, with Hagrid's function. Second, though he seems to have a subaltern job, Hagrid is in a way the true master of Hogwarts, because, as you pointed it, he's the Keeper of Keys and Grounds. Dumbledore, far from considering Hagrid as a subordinate, treats him as an equal. And that idea appears since the very first chapter of the series, when he says to Mac Gonagall: `I would trust Hagrid with my life'. Dumbledore is the most powerful wizard of the time and he declares that he would be ready to use Hagrid's protection. There couldn't be a better evidence of his consideration towards his Keeper of Keys and Grounds. Of course, we can object that Hagrid is not as wise and powerful as Dumbledore. Many of his interventions in the story are amusing. He doesn't seem very serious. We mustn't forget what hides behind that humble appearance: Rubeus Hagrid, Keeper of the Keys and Grounds at Hogwarts, as he introduces himself in the first book (PS/SS, UK edition p 40). Sounds like a nobility title, doesn't it? Hagrid is the one who owns the secret to enter the magical world. He is the one who makes the new students enter the castle. He also owns the keys of Hogwarts. Better: he keeps them. Just like a baron keeps a fief for his king. Even if he doesn't seem to realize himself, even if the others consider him as a servant, a simple gamekeeper, Hagrid is in a sort of way the lord of Hogwarts, his protector. One last thing, but it may be consistent if it's true that JKR writes referring to Alchemy: `Hagrid's first name is `Rubeus'. If we believe what John Granger wrote in his article `The alchemist them: Harry Potter and Alchemy' (sorry, I don't remember when it was published, but there's a message in the HPfGU archives that gives the link to reach it), `Rubeus' comes from `Rubedo', the Red Work, the third and most important phase of the Great Work, that leads to the achievement of the Stone. JKR doesn't use that first name currently, and she doesn't use either the title of `Keeper of the Keys and Grounds' to explain what Hagrid is really. Simply because the Red Work is the most secret of all. As for Hagrid's `servant' condition, it could deal with the true nature of the Stone: it's not an achievement in itself; it's only a servant which sole aim is to help the world to improve. Another evidence of Hagrid's connection to the Rubedo phase? Well, he's the one who brings to Stone to Hogwarts. He declares in the Leaky Cauldron (in PS/SS) that he has come to Diagon Alley because he is `on Hogwarts business'. He has come to help the Stone and Harry find their way to Hogwarts. In that single little sentence, apparently so anodyne, JKR gives us an amazing summarise of what a true Alchemist is: he's the servant of the Stone, and the protector of the one who starts his initiatory journey, the Apprentice. And it's `Hogwarts business', because the school is the alchemical cell where the Stone and the Apprentice have to meet. Talking about Harry, and about the first book of the series: I'm quite sure we have in this little book all that we need to understand the whole story. JKR gives us the keys, but we don't always know she does. Just the way she lets us believe that Hagrid is just a `servant' at Hogwarts (note that when she presents him as a servant, she uses Draco Malfoy, one of the characters who are supposed to be `wrong' because they `support' the Dark Side). Now, what do we read in PS/SS, chapter 9? We read Harry's first flying lesson, the lesson that will give him the possibility to become a Seeker. A Seeker, that's precisely what an Apprentice, what an Alchemist is. But before he becomes a Seeker, Harry is afraid of being expelled because he disobeyed Madam Hooch's orders. While she makes him follow Mac Gonagall, sure that he will get expelled, JKR writes these lines: "He thought of Hagrid, expelled but allowed to stay as a gamekeeper. Perhaps he could be Hagrid's assistant." Maybe those two lines are more than just a narrative detail. Maybe they tell us what Harry really has to become: a servant. The exact contrary of Voldemort. And that way, he will succeed where Voldemort has failed, mislead as he was with his illusory dreams of power. In Alchemy, he who works and serves is always more powerful than he who rules and gives orders. Amicalement, and hoping I'm not too confusing, Iris From dzeytoun at cox.net Thu Jul 15 18:07:23 2004 From: dzeytoun at cox.net (dzeytoun at cox.net) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:07:23 -0400 Subject: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore and flaws in the books Message-ID: <20040715180725.NMJN20527.lakermmtao11.cox.net@smtp.east.cox.net> No: HPFGUIDX 106452 Pippin wrote: I think Dumbledore would consider it self-righteous in the extreme--as he says, he has no power to make other men see the truth. Meaning, as McGonagall would put it, that he does have that power, he's just too noble to use it. DZEYTOUN: And there is the problem. I don't find that noble. I find that spineless and not at all admirable. Dzeytoun From caseylane at wideopenwest.com Thu Jul 15 19:24:28 2004 From: caseylane at wideopenwest.com (Casey) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 19:24:28 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore as a parental figure for Snape In-Reply-To: <20040715182432.OESP6333.lakermmtao02.cox.net@smtp.east.cox.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106453 Dzeytoun wrote: > Dumbledore may well feel very guilty with regard to Severus. After all, much of Severus' bitterness is founded in an incident where he feels, with good reason, that the Marauders tried to murder him. Dumbledore did not see it that way, and essentially let them off the hook, thus engendering deep, and perhaps unhealable, wounds in Severus. > > As often happens, Dumbledore, conscious of his first mistake, now proceeds to make others in an attempt to make amends. Except, Dumbledore does still favor the Gryffindors. That was shown by the points awarded. Just enough to have them win over Slytherin. If he was trying to compensate it would seem he wouldn't be so blatant in his favoritism. He would be scrupulous with his dealings between the houses. Making a point so that Snape would have no reason to think that Dumbledore was still playing favorites. Casey From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 21:09:33 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 21:09:33 -0000 Subject: SHIP:Hermione's feelings for Ron in OotP (Was : Re: Harry's first Kiss) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106454 > "'I've been wanting that New Theory of Numerology for ages! And that > perfume's really UNUSUAL, Ron.'" Gina commented : > Now girls lets be honest shall we? If your secret crush gave you an > old sock (assuming you are not a house elf) you would say "Oh, it's > lovely" no matter what Del replies : Not if I knew one specific thing about boys, namely : once they've found something they think you like, they'll keep offering you that. So if I really did NOT like the perfume, I would of course not go out and tell the boy I hate the perfume, but I would make sure he gets the message that I'd rather he find something else next time, and that is it most definitely not my kind of perfume. "It's unusual" is often the nice way of saying "I don't like it". That's how I distinguish between people who actually like my first name (not Del) upon hearing first time, and those who instinctively don't like it. The first ones say "it's nice", the second ones say "it's unusual". Lol ! Del From libtax10375 at earthlink.net Thu Jul 15 19:51:18 2004 From: libtax10375 at earthlink.net (Leeann McCullough) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:51:18 -0400 Subject: The Missing Guard References: <1089916151.92643.43525.m22@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <008401c46aa5$1921f360$e418ef04@CPQ16151965929> No: HPFGUIDX 106455 Becki wonders: >> Where in the heck was the person that was suppose to be on guard duty that night that the "rescue squad" entered the MoM? I understand that the DEs probably got rid of the desk security guard, in which Harry thought was odd that there was nobody there. But what about the OoP guard? The one that everyone always took in turn to guard the Department of Mysteries entrance? Perhaps they were overthrown by a DE or two, but I would think that should have been confirmed in the book. Any theories anyone? << Leeann wondered that herself: Not sure, I can't reference OoP right now, but was there any Order guard posted after Arthur was attacked by the snake/Harry? I would think that the order would have to find another way to "post a guard" after that night. Would it be wise to continue to place an order member outside that door when the MOM and DEs know about them? Would it be wise to flaunt the fact that you know LV wants in to Dept of Mysteries? (I sit here waiting for someone to prove me wrong. Go ahead, I can take it.) From lysandrabellargus at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 15 20:36:02 2004 From: lysandrabellargus at yahoo.co.uk (Sandra) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:36:02 -0000 Subject: Hermiones future - Was: Hermione's Reaction to... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106456 Hi > > Regina wrote: > > I lean strongly toward ultimate R/H BECAUSE I do not > > believe romance will play a major part in remaining > > books. > boyd: > > Or Jo could kill Ron! :o > Sandra: or she could kill Hermione :o Didn't Jo say that most people are afraid of Ron being killed, and didn't she sounded somewhat disappointed that nobody was worried about Hermione? (Sorry I do not have the exact quote) And then I vaguely remember that she once hinted that she will have to 'kill' the character, she mostly resembles (and again, not exact quote for that either, but maybe someone else has it!). >From book to book I fear for the health of Hermione (as much as for most of the others too!), and I am always so glad, that she did not die yet. But in the end, that could well be the solution of the H/Hr/R triangel but in this case I hope and am pretty much sure, we will have to wait quite a while for this (a lot more grown-up HP fans, I would say). BTW and a bit OT (not that much really, dear moderators and elves!) I thoroughly enjoyed Caroline's quote about Voldemore and the ones, including yours about his TO-DO-list just adds a bit of forge to the list. Sandra From doliesl at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 21:22:17 2004 From: doliesl at yahoo.com (Dolies) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:22:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: FF: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040715212217.51678.qmail@web13702.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106457 --- Erica Sadun wrote: > Hogwarts is full of bad teachers: Trelawney, Hagrid, Binns, to > name just a few. Snape, however excellent he is at potents, > is cruel--not a great advantage in pedagogy. > > One might think that Dumbledore has structured his school more on > building character and a personal army than simply educating > future wizards. Or that these eccentric incompetent or sadistic teachers are just more entertaining to write/read, more drama and tension for this fictional school adventure story? You sure hear more from them than some good proper teachers (which I'm sure do exist, the names-only teachers that don't worth pages to detail how good and proper they are?). D. From srobles at caribe.net Thu Jul 15 21:24:18 2004 From: srobles at caribe.net (anasazi_pr) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 21:24:18 -0000 Subject: SHIP:Hermione's feelings for Ron in OotP (Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106458 ohneill_2001 wrote: > I had never really thought about the significance of the Christmas > presents before, but since you two pointed it out, I'll add my .02. > I think the gifts could cut either way in the 'shipping debate. Ron > got Hermione a gift that he thought was "romantic," even though it > might not have been one that she liked or one that fit her > personality (we don't know whether Hermione even wears perfume, do > we?) On the other hand, Harry got her a gift that is not romantic, > but which is something that he knew she would like. While this might > suggest "just friends," it might also suggest that he is more in tune > with Hermione than Ron is. > --Cory I agree with what you said. But we were talking about Hermione's reaction... what do you interpret that to be? Anasazi From srobles at caribe.net Thu Jul 15 21:28:38 2004 From: srobles at caribe.net (anasazi_pr) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 21:28:38 -0000 Subject: SHIP:Hermione's feelings for Ron in OotP (Was : Re: Harry's first Kiss) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106459 Gina wrote: > Gina: > Now girls lets be honest shall we? If your secret crush gave you an old > sock (assuming you are not a house elf) you would say "Oh, it's lovely" no > matter what because this is not a gift from your husband of 20 years but of > a love that you alone know about and that you probably wonder if he feels > the same so ANY gift would be great whether you really wanted it or not and > you would make quite the fuss over it THUS "I've been wanting a sock like > that for ages!" You would not say "that sock is really UNUSUAL". > > * Gina - who still has a rock painted like a gold nugget a sweetie > gave her in 7th grade even with all the paint gone LOL That's too sweet, Gina. And I agree with you, which is why I always thinks that Hermione's statement works against R/Hr. I mean, even in the non-shippy way, she could have stated how she felt about the gift differently, maybe with a "thanks for the gift, Ron." added, but we don't even get that. I don't want to speculate right now, but it sounded almost as if she wanted to make sure to him that she wasn't interesting in gifts like that (or maybe gifts like that from him). Anasazi -who kept a verse a friend wrote to her in high school... on a stained napkin From srobles at caribe.net Thu Jul 15 21:32:33 2004 From: srobles at caribe.net (anasazi_pr) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 21:32:33 -0000 Subject: Hermiones future - Was: Hermione's Reaction to... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106460 Sandra wrote: > or she could kill Hermione :o > > Didn't Jo say that most people are afraid of Ron being killed, and > didn't she sounded somewhat disappointed that nobody was worried > about Hermione? (Sorry I do not have the exact quote) > > And then I vaguely remember that she once hinted that she will have > to 'kill' the character, she mostly resembles (and again, not exact > quote for that either, but maybe someone else has it!). > > From book to book I fear for the health of Hermione (as much as for > most of the others too!), and I am always so glad, that she did not > die yet. > > But in the end, that could well be the solution of the H/Hr/R triangel > but in this case I hope and am pretty much sure, we will have to wait > quite a while for this (a lot more grown-up HP fans, I would say). > > Sandra Actually, I've always believed that, if anyone in the trio is going to die, is going to be Hermione. She's a powerful witch, and Canon! Hermione reminds me so much of what we know of Canon!Lily, that I can't help but think that, like Lily, Hermione will make the ultimate sacrifice to ensure Harry's defeat of Voldemort, maybe even reinforcing the protection his mother placed on Harry when he was a baby. Peace, Anasazi From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 21:33:19 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 21:33:19 -0000 Subject: The Virtues of Hufflepuff House and Cedric Diggory (Was: Snape and . . .cour In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106461 It's a weird thing to do, but I'll answer my own post instead of all the posts which disagree with me. I failed to convey my meaning properly. But most of all, I forgot to mention one very important thing : I love the Hufflepuffs. If I had to make my choice of a House, I'd be torn between my ambition which would turn me towards Ravenclaw (I'm the brainy type), and my heart which would take me to Hufflepuff. What I really meant with my post is that the Hufflepuffs keep having irritating flaws revealed about them and that the reader always needs to look deeper to find the truth about them. I never meant that I believe that the Hufflepuffs are a load of duffers, nor that JKR thinks they are. But she sure has a strange way of dealing with the different Houses. The Hufflepuffs too often look like twits. The Slytherins are all evil. The Ravenclaws are almost invisible, and when they are not it's not good news for them (Cho, Marrietta). And the Gryffindors are the saviours of the world and the kings of the school. Talk about equal treatment and uniting of the Houses. Del, who knows that the books are told from Harry's point of view, no need to remind her of that :-) From BrwNeil at aol.com Thu Jul 15 21:39:14 2004 From: BrwNeil at aol.com (BrwNeil at aol.com) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:39:14 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHHermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Message-ID: <1cf.25ece946.2e285382@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106462 In a message dated 7/15/2004 5:03:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rolshan2000 at yahoo.com writes: I lean strongly toward ultimate R/H BECAUSE I do not believe romance will play a major part in remaining books. Doing an R/H reversal and H/H coming together would still be very possible, but would take a fair amount of space/plot to getting there. R/H would take nothing more than a brief moment of realization (could even be offstage). The latter seems more consistent with the build-up and with the series focus. Regina Reversal and coming together? What is there to reverse? My apologies to both H/H and R/H fans, but thus far I haven't seen anything in canon that makes either coupling a sure thing. As for space and plot, take the following two examples of how much space JKR needs. Keep in mind that Ron and Harry have never discussed Hermione in a romantic way. Simply insert either one of the following in book six. Example one. "Ron, every time Hermione mentions Victor's name you seem to get upset. Do you like her as more than a friend? Harry asked. "Yes, but I was afraid you liked her and that it would ruin our friendship if I asked her out," Ron answered. "Certainly I like her, but not in that way. If you like her mate, tell her. Nothing could make me happier than seeing my two best friends together. Example two. "Ron, every time Hermione mentions Victor's name you seem to get upset. Do you like her as more than a friend? Harry asked. "At one time I thought I did," Ron answered, "but not anymore. We just have too many differences. It would never work out." "You know after the Cho debacle, I've come to the realization that I think I do care for Hermione," Harry said. "Would you have a problem with me asking her out?" "If you think you can put up with her, go for it. I wish you nothing, but luck. I think it would be great if you two got together." Now, of course, neither example takes into consideration Hermione's feeling. All I'm trying to point out is that at this point, we don't know and that this is how simple it would be for Rowling to send the story either way. Not even a half page. Neil The Nefarious Court Jester of the Royal Family of Cliffies [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From caseylane at wideopenwest.com Thu Jul 15 18:08:02 2004 From: caseylane at wideopenwest.com (Casey) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:08:02 -0000 Subject: SHHermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: In-Reply-To: <20040715170826.66966.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106463 Just jumping in for a moment. I think that Luna was brought in to be a female Viktor for R/H. Yes, Ron is attracted to Hermione, and vice versa. The thing is Hermione is waiting for Ron to come to the realization. Right now he is jealous but isn't recognizing it for what it is. All he knows is that he's angry because Hermione dated Viktor and is keeping up a correspondence. Angry enough that Viktor is no longer his hero, instead he tore apart the little flying action figure he had of him. Hermione has decided to be patient and wait for Ron. Figuring that Ron would wake up one day and see what he's been blind to. Now we have Luna, a girl that's attracted to Ron. Right now things are kind of low level but if she starts making her move things might change. Then it will be up to Hermione to wake up and realize that waiting for Ron could cause her to lose him. She is going to have to be the aggressor. To be honest I was surprised to find out that people were shipping H/H. It never entered my mind when I read the books that there was a romantic attraction between them. I'll have to read the books again to see if I can see it now. And Snape/Lupin? If only JKR had the nerve. Casey From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Thu Jul 15 21:20:33 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 21:20:33 -0000 Subject: Ginny the villain WAS Re: Dobby redux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106464 > > Kneasy: > > Headlines in the Daily Prophet: > > "Daughter of Ministry Employee Dies Using Dark Magic Artifact That > > Unleashes Monster On Fellow Students." > > > > Arthurs credibility would be shot - and he's a major DD supporter > > in the Ministry. > Halli: > "A clever plan," said Dumbledore. "Because if Harry here and > his friend Ron hadn't discovered this book, why - Ginny Weasley > might have taken all the blame. No one would ever have been able to > prove she hadn't acted of her own free will...." "And > imagine," ... "Imagine the effect on Arthur Weasley and his Muggle- > Protection Act, if his own daughter was discovered attacking and > killing muggle-borns..." Aggie: Yes, yes, yes, I UNDERSTAND that, what I didn't understand was how A) anyone could believe that Ginny would/could that (let alone DD, who wouldn't have let the story out) - although he wasn't there was he? Yes he was cos the committee reinstated him when Ginny was taken into the Chamber. ('Scuse my ramblings, thinking out loud!) B) When Ginny was taken into the Chamber McGonagall didn't say, 'Oh no! Ginny's been taken into the Chamber, it must have been her killing everyone! Why would Ginny go from Victim to Culprit? If she had been killed why would anyone think it was her? Was her that killed herself???????? Doesn't make sense to me. Even if the diary was found next to her, nothing is written in it! An empty book is enough to *incriminate* her? DD said that not many knew Tom Riddle = LV so it's doubtful that anyone would make that connection! It just doesn't add up! But thanks for trying!! From ariston3344 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 21:29:53 2004 From: ariston3344 at yahoo.com (ariston3344) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 21:29:53 -0000 Subject: Patronus at DADA OWL In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106465 Cathy a.k.a. DuffyPoo wrote: > Maybe poor old Professor Tofty thought Harry could use all the > points he could get. Well, I'll eat my wand if Harry hadn't already earned an 'O' by that point in the exam. My guess is that Professor Tofty just wanted to see Harry do it -- the "bonus point" is an excuse to give him a reason to ask. Anyone who's been a teacher (which includes JKR) knows the rare pleasure of seeing a gifted student going well above and beyond what would be expected. Naturally Professor Tofty would want in on the fun! By way of comparison, consider Lupin's response to Harry after he produces his Patronus over the Quidditch pitch in PoA13 and Terry Boot's awed response to Hermione's ability to do a Protean Charm (OotP19). "ariston3344" From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 21:52:25 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 21:52:25 -0000 Subject: FF: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106468 > > Alla earlier: > > > > Oh, OK. Thanks. It could very well be. I still would like to see > > Snape at least starting saying that apology, because otherwise it > wil > > only speak of Harry's attitude change. Jo: > Don't you think that in the event of some sort of rapprochement > between Harry and Snape, Harry would also need to apologize? His > behavior toward Snape, although sometimes understandable, hasn't > always been beyond reproach. > > I'd like to see Harry be big enough to own up to his own > contributions to the poor relationship he has with Snape. > Alla: Jo, but that is exactly what I said.:o) I WANT Harry to apologise, but I want Snape to apologise first. In my mind, Snape contributed a lion share to the bad relationship between them and Harry - a significantly smaller one. From aboutthe1910s at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 21:34:16 2004 From: aboutthe1910s at yahoo.com (aboutthe1910s) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 21:34:16 -0000 Subject: JKR and the Snape/Harry dynamic In-Reply-To: <20040715181224.PQHO13743.lakermmtao08.cox.net@smtp.east.cox.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106469 Dzeytoun wrote: > That is, we are assuming that JKR finds the Harry/Snape dynamic as interesting as we do. In fact, there is plentiful evidence that she does not - largely because she does not seem to find Snape to be that interesting of an individual. On her website, Jo says that Snape, while not of her favorite characters, is one of her favorite characters to write. As Harry is the character through which we must view Snape, this statement seems to me to imply that she finds the Harry/Snape dynamic at least mildly interesting... a From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Thu Jul 15 21:44:33 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 21:44:33 -0000 Subject: Still wondering why Snape trusts DD! (was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: <20040715193752.12867.qmail@web13704.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106470 > > SSSusan: > > I'm sorry, but I don't think the reference to a debt is enough to > > explain it. I think Kneasy's right--there has to be a REASON why > > Snape, who was surely profoundly disappointed & angry that DD ? >didn't punish the Marauders after the prank, DID end up trusting DD >enough to return to his fold. D: > I see the reason Snape trust DD as something very fundamental and > basic: because DD trusts him. > That just do not feel like the type of bond that suggest any debt >or bargain. Sometimes it is just that pure and simple. JKR revealed >a little in recent chat that Snape gave DD his story and DD believes >it. That "DD believes it" might be the IT that turns Snape >completely around and wanted to work for someone who, despite his >past sins, is willing to trust him. Aggie: I can go along with you to a certain extent but. . . ;o) What SSSusan and Kneasy are querying is why Snape didn't turn the Marauders in and why, after DD didn't severely punish those responsible (that we know of), does Snape still ultimately side with DD. It is assumed that Snape becme a DE and then rejoined DD just before Lv's defeat. This is several years after The Prank. Why did Snape rejoin? Who knows! But for DD to *believe his story*, to trust him, there has to be a story! Snape wouldn't have just said 'Gizza job!' and DD say 'OK'. The story is the curious part! And what we're all after! I agree that Snape could trust DD because DD trusts Snape, but there has to be a reason for DD to trust Snape - doesn't there? It's kinda like chicken and egg I suppose! Which came first the story or the trust! (Whichever one's male!!! - Sorry elves, couldn't resist!) James- ESE means ever so evil. Check out Inish Alley from the database section or your humongous big file. From jferer at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 21:58:57 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 21:58:57 -0000 Subject: Hermiones future - Was: Hermione's Reaction to... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106471 Sandra: "Didn't Jo say that most people are afraid of Ron being killed, and didn't she sounded somewhat disappointed that nobody was worried about Hermione? (Sorry I do not have the exact quote)" The sense seemed to be that everyone believed Hermione would be OK. Here's the quote: JKR: 'It's great to hear feedback from the kids. Mostly they are really worried about Ron. As if I'm going to kill Harry's best friend. What I find interesting is only once has anyone said to me, "Don't kill Hermione," and that was after a reading when I said no one's ever worried about her. Another kid said, "Yeah, well, she's bound to get through O.K. ' I can't find one that says she's going to kill the character 'she most resembles.' I didn't expect to find it, because if she said it she might as well have told us straight out that she's killing off Hermione. JKR went on to discuss Hermione's emotional vulnerability. Personally, I also think Hermione will survive, but let ME say straight out that I have no proof whatsoever. Jim Ferer From erica at mindspring.com Thu Jul 15 17:09:42 2004 From: erica at mindspring.com (Erica Sadun) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 11:09:42 -0600 Subject: "M**blood" and handicap In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106472 >| Sherry: >| Perhaps, back in the days of the four founders, Gryffindor was very >| unusual in his support of muggle born students. If the mud blood >| thing is supposed to represent racism, then I think there could very >| well be some not so pretty history behind it. Lee: >Absolutely, I'd bet my last knut on that. > >Whenever I see that scene in GOF at the QWC and the torture done to the >Roberts family, etc., my brain screams "KKK!"...or other such group. >Sadly, prejudice is a hard, practically impossible beasty to kill. Which makes it so disturbing that Rowling chose to use Magen Davids to indicate pure-blood students in the notebooks which were captured as screen shots from the "Harry and Me" BBC special. -- E From eeyore5497 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 16:35:44 2004 From: eeyore5497 at yahoo.com (Michelle Horcher) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:35:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SHIP: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss In-Reply-To: <20040715153343.12904.qmail@web25303.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040715163544.97374.qmail@web12205.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106473 Udderpd wrote 1st: > >She also knows that if she doesn't fancy him and she tells Ron exactly what she thinks of him, his self centered jealousy will blow the trio apart and she is not willing to do this. Del replies : >The only case where Ron's jealousy might be a problem would be if Hermione told him she fancies Harry instead. And we don't know that, no more than we know if she fancies Ron. Both possibilities are just that : possibilities. Udderpd wrote 1st: >> Let us not forget that Victor is Jealous of Harry not Ron Hermione talked constantly of Harry when she was with Victor. Del replies : >So ? I agree that one interpretation is indeed that Hermione has feelings for Harry. Udderpd wrote : >> Ron needs to chat socialy with a lot more girls and then he might learn about himself and (as much as any mere male can) about girls. Del replies : >Considering how clueless he was about Cho, I'd say Harry had better do that too. Uddrepd 2nd >Agreed but at least Harry has had some Ron has had none. In my honest opinion Ron and Luna will make a fine couple. Michelle Replies: Just to throw another curve into this Hogwarts Soap Opera, what about Ginny Weasley's crush on Harry? I know she was seeing Michael Corner in OoTP but it is stated that she broke up with him and is now seeing Lee Jordan. Teenagers are very fickle. Who knows what could happen in the next two books. My hope is that Ron & Hermione will finally get together (there's more about that crush that HP/HG) & as they mature also & Harry finally defeats LV that he will get together with Ginny. Do you realize that would make all of the related by marriage! Harry & Ron would be Bro-In-Laws & As well as Hermione being Harry's & Ginny's Sis-In-Law! Hmm... From aboutthe1910s at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 22:11:32 2004 From: aboutthe1910s at yahoo.com (aboutthe1910s) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:11:32 -0000 Subject: Prefects Who Gained Power Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106474 In Chamber of Secrets, Percy's reading a book called "Prefects Who Gained Power: A study of Hogwarts prefects and their later careers"--I wonder if Lily is in this book... aboutthe1910s From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 22:25:37 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:25:37 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss In-Reply-To: <20040715163544.97374.qmail@web12205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106475 Michelle Horcher started : > Just to throw another curve into this Hogwarts Soap Opera, what about > Ginny Weasley's crush on Harry? I know she was seeing Michael Corner > in OoTP but it is stated that she broke up with him and is now seeing > Lee Jordan. Del whispers from the corner of her mouth : Dean Thomas, Michelle, Dean Thomas ! Michelle blushes : > Er... Dean Thomas, yes... Well anyway, what I meant is teenagers are > very fickle. Who knows what could happen in the next two books. Del goes : Hear, hear ! Michelle takes heart and continues in a more confident voice : > My hope is that Ron & Hermione will finally get together (there's > more about that crush that HP/HG) & as they mature also & Harry > finally defeats LV that he will get together with Ginny. Do you > realize that would make all of the related by marriage! Harry & Ron > would be Bro-In-Laws & As well as Hermione being Harry's & Ginny's > Sis-In-Law! Hmm... Del is awed : Oooh, the good old One-Big-Happy-Weasley-Family ! It had been a while, but it still feels as good as ever :-) Del, who hopes Michelle doesn't mind a bit of acting (it's past midnight here, some barriers seem to have lifted in my brain :-) From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 15 22:29:49 2004 From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:29:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss In-Reply-To: <20040715163544.97374.qmail@web12205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040715222949.76928.qmail@web25301.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106476 Michelle Horcher wrote: Udderpd wrote 1st: > >She also knows that if she doesn't fancy him and she tells Ron exactly what she thinks of him, his self centered jealousy will blow the trio apart and she is not willing to do this. Del replies : >The only case where Ron's jealousy might be a problem would be if Hermione told him she fancies Harry instead. And we don't know that, no more than we know if she fancies Ron. Both possibilities are just that : possibilities. Udderpd wrote 1st: >> Let us not forget that Victor is Jealous of Harry not Ron Hermione talked constantly of Harry when she was with Victor. Del replies : >So ? I agree that one interpretation is indeed that Hermione has feelings for Harry. Udderpd wrote : >> Ron needs to chat socialy with a lot more girls and then he might learn about himself and (as much as any mere male can) about girls. Del replies : >Considering how clueless he was about Cho, I'd say Harry had better do that too. Uddrepd 2nd >Agreed but at least Harry has had some Ron has had none. In my honest opinion Ron and Luna will make a fine couple. Michelle Replies: Just to throw another curve into this Hogwarts Soap Opera, what about Ginny Weasley's crush on Harry? I know she was seeing Michael Corner in OoTP but it is stated that she broke up with him and is now seeing Lee Jordan. Teenagers are very fickle. Who knows what could happen in the next two books. My hope is that Ron & Hermione will finally get together (there's more about that crush that HP/HG) & as they mature also & Harry finally defeats LV that he will get together with Ginny. Do you realize that would make all of the related by marriage! Harry & Ron would be Bro-In-Laws & As well as Hermione being Harry's & Ginny's Sis-In-Law! Hmm... Udderpd once more, I never ever forget Ginny niether do I forget that she ows Harry a life debt. One of my worries is that she will die repaying her debt to him, I hate it. However the main point of the preceeding arguement is my contention that RW and HG are not compatible, they would both have to change so much as to be unrecognisable, simply in order to coexist and anyway she doesn't fancy him. TTFN Udder Pen Dragon ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jmmears at comcast.net Thu Jul 15 22:34:23 2004 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:34:23 -0000 Subject: SHIP:Hermione's feelings for Ron in OotP (Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106477 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ohneill_2001" wrote: > > I had never really thought about the significance of the Christmas > presents before, but since you two pointed it out, I'll add my .02. > I think the gifts could cut either way in the 'shipping debate. Ron > got Hermione a gift that he thought was "romantic," even though it > might not have been one that she liked or one that fit her > personality (we don't know whether Hermione even wears perfume, do > we?) On the other hand, Harry got her a gift that is not romantic, > but which is something that he knew she would like. While this might > suggest "just friends," it might also suggest that he is more in tune > with Hermione than Ron is. I think the only significance of the Christmas presents is that exactly one year before Hermione is very upset with Ron for not realizing that she's a girl. Ron's present is a signal (which he probably doesn't realize he's sending) that he remembers that incident, and that he is showing her that he does know *now* that she's a girl. It doesn't really matter how nice the perfume is, whether or not Hermione actually "likes" perfume, or what kind of gift Harry gets her. I'd be willing to bet that the perfume didn't smell wonderful (hence the "unusual" comment) because Ron wouldn't know much at all about selecting scents and also because he doesn't have much money. However, I don't think Hermione has missed the real significance of the gift of perfume although I think that the significance is purely subconsious on Ron's part. After all, he doesn't seem anxious to see her reaction to it, or even be interested in analyzing her response. If he were aware that he fancies her, surely he'd me more concerned about that. Jo S. who thinks that Ron's cluelessness is what makes this whole scene really funny From doliesl at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 23:25:04 2004 From: doliesl at yahoo.com (Dolies) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:25:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Still wondering why Snape trusts DD! (was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040715232504.84141.qmail@web13709.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106480 --- aggiepaddy wrote: D here: Well I mentioned about THE story, so of course I know about THE story. But isn't it the key (you know...the billion dollor answer) to Snape's main mystery that we've been speculating on this list since the birth of of this list? Kneasy was asking *why Snape trust DD* (which we rarely discuss), NOT the other way around *why DD trust Snape and what story had Snape convinced DD* (a topic that has been speculate in every exhausted way). SSS and Kneasy were pondering shouldn't Snape felt betrayed by DD in his handling of the Pranks and Mauraders, why would Snape trust DD. I was saying that, Pranks/Mauraders (or any debt, bargain) did not play any part in Snape trusting DD. Snape's current trust do not "weight" in a balance in relation to how DD treat marauders in the past (Why does everything has be Marauders' related?) His trusting of DD could be purely base on DD's willingness to believe *his STORY". It is the fact DD believes HIM that's why Snape trust DD in return, regardless of how DD handled student affairs in the past, because this is the only man that give his trust to Snape, and Snape honor that. Hope that clear your confusion. D. From meriaugust at yahoo.com Thu Jul 15 23:48:36 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:48:36 -0000 Subject: Prefects Who Gained Power In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106481 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aboutthe1910s" wrote: > In Chamber of Secrets, Percy's reading a book called "Prefects Who > Gained Power: A study of Hogwarts prefects and their later careers"--I > wonder if Lily is in this book... > > aboutthe1910s Why? We have no cannon to state whether or not Lily was a Prefect or not. According to JKR you don't have to be a Prefect to be Head Boy or Girl, and there's also no cannon to state that Lily was particularly powerful in the sense (ie, political) that the title implies. Meri - who would be more interested to know if someone like DD, Tom Riddle, McGonagal or Crouch Sr. was in that book... From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Fri Jul 16 00:00:24 2004 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 00:00:24 -0000 Subject: Patronus at DADA OWL (was Re: Harry's Future...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106482 <<>> The Sergeant Majorette says Those other students who could produce a Patronus only knew how to do it because Harry taught it to them. So really, if those students had gotten a chance to get those extra points, Harry should have gotten *more* bonus points for every one who succeeded. Not only could the boy produce a corporeal Patronus as a third-year, he was able to teach others to do it as a fifth-year! --JDR From silmariel at telefonica.net Thu Jul 15 00:16:59 2004 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (silmariel) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 02:16:59 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Still wondering why Snape trusts DD! (was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200407150216.59174.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 106484 Jue 15 Jul 2004 23:44, Aggie wrote: > What SSSusan and Kneasy are querying is why Snape didn't turn the > Marauders in and why, after DD didn't severely punish those > responsible (that we know of), does Snape still ultimately side with > DD. Seems he can't ask easy questions. All I can infere is a partial explanation. The key here should be not losing that confidence *totally*, managing the matter from the start. A carefully planned but also honest catharsis might have worked. Let's see OoP ch 37 (847-868). Dumbledore won't let Harry go before 'explaining'. Right, the best moment for a forced, long talk, when the victim is still in shock. He shows the same pattern in every book, intended or not, he talks to/explains his version to Harry when he is in the hospital, when he has just lived the outcome of the book, when he is mentally weak and not going to ask incisive questions. He is very convincing, and we are talking about what an adult can offer to a 16. Well, to start he can be honest, admit whatever reponsability he holds and try to make a deal. As I think Dumbledore would present it, it's a question of second chances and desitions. If Snape chooses to talk, he'll ruin the life of the Marauders. He he does not, he still has the wild card in hand of knowing 3 are animagi and the last a wererewolf. If he does not, by the same rule of the second chance, if there is ever place to a second chance to you, you've got Dumbledore's word that he will do what's in his hands to give you that chance. It depends on how much credibility had DD's word before the prank on Snape's eyes. Yes, you might be as angry, but if I were a cunny and ambitious young Slytherin I might consider it. What do I gain? A favour for the future, protection from one of the most powerful wizards of the world, and an avid collection of fans... sorry, slipped here, and still holding the disgrace card if I change my mind. In that sense, DD is trusting you because you hold the knowledge and can use at any point. Because we don't think DD obliviated Snape, do we? > It is assumed that Snape becme a DE and then rejoined DD just before > Lv's defeat. This is several years after The Prank. Why did Snape > rejoin? Who knows! But for DD to *believe his story*, to trust him, > there has to be a story! Snape wouldn't have just said 'Gizza job!' > and DD say 'OK'. The story is the curious part! And what we're all > after! I agree that Snape could trust DD because DD trusts Snape, but > there has to be a reason for DD to trust Snape - doesn't there? Of course, this can't be all but it is a start point. You might be angry, not look DD again and follow your plot (I won't enter there) to the DE's, but with that conversation in mind, you have an open bridge for your return to DD's side. Then, Snape told his history and DD trusted him, no wonder he is loyal. I'm one of those who think the life-debt is merely an excuse. Why DD trusts him is another question, I only have DD's word that he trusts him and a bird that inspires fear in those whose heart is not pure and comes to your help if you are truly loyal to DD and express so - this phoenix inclusions are provided by a post I read long ago - hope I'm not missatributing - by Pippin. Just a question, do you think occlumency is basic or advanced DE training or was acquired before joining the merry party? Carolina From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 16 01:23:41 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 01:23:41 -0000 Subject: Patronus at DADA OWL (was Re: Harry's Future...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106485 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > > Del replies : > Irk :-) ! > That one made *my* temper rise when I first read it. The examiner > gave Harry bonus points for something that other students knew how > to do as well, but he didn't ask *them* !! > > ...edited... > > Nobody else was given a chance to grab extra points in their DADA > OWL by producing a Patronus, ... > > It just all smacks of favouritism. > > ...edited... > > Del Asian_lovr2: I wasn't extra points, it was ONE extra point ("For A bonus point...") , and in my reading it was implied that this was a token point. That one point one way or the other was not enough to sway his grade. And, increasing Harry's by one point, doesn't diminish the value of other students grades. I assume grades are not on a 'curve', but are set to absolute boundaries. That said, I really wanted Harry leap to his feet and say, "Yeh, I can but I'm not the only one. Hey, Ernie; show them your Patronus!" Then proceed to have every available member of the DA cast a Patronus just to rub Umbridge's nose in it. Side note: as foul as she is, I wonder if Umbridge is going to try and take credit for the excellent performance of students in DADA, or if she knows what's good for her, will be wise enough to lay low and stay quiet? Steve/asian_lovr2 From patientx3 at aol.com Fri Jul 16 01:50:04 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 01:50:04 -0000 Subject: The Virtues of Hufflepuff House and Cedric Diggory (Was: Snape and . . .cour In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106488 Del wrote: > So yes, I think it is quite obvious that JKR intended for us to have > little consideration for the Hufflepuffs. Now, why ever she would do > that, I have no idea, but the proofs are there. Hickengruendler replied: >>I disagree completely. I think she intended to show us that there is a prejudice against Hufflepuff in the wizarding world, but I do not think, that it is JKR's opinion, or that we are supposed to agree with the wizarding world's opinion about Hufflepuff.<< HunterGreen: I'm not so sure. What about Hufflepuff always being the lowest (or second-lowest if something specific has happened with Gryffindor) in house points at the end of the year? Or that their Head of House is Profressor Sprout, who teaches a much less taxing class than Transfiguration or Potions or Charms? (nothing against Sprout, of course, just than when compared to McGonagal or Snape she's doesn't seem as impressive). [i'm suddenly blanking on their animal, but I seem to remember it also being less impressive, compared to a lion or a snake]. And there's still the matter of the Sorting Hat's song that I mentioned upthread. Although it could have just been a reflection of Helga Hufflepuff's philosphies, its still difficult to get the phrase "took the rest" out of my head. (just to clarify, I'm not saying that *I* think Hufflepuff is a bad house, just that its portrayed that way). From patientx3 at aol.com Fri Jul 16 01:54:21 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 01:54:21 -0000 Subject: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: <20040715180725.NMJN20527.lakermmtao11.cox.net@smtp.east.cox.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106489 Pippin wrote: >>> I think Dumbledore would consider it self-righteous in the extreme--as he says, he has no power to make other men see the truth. Meaning, as McGonagall would put it, that he does have that power, he's just too noble to use it. <<< DZEYTOUN replied: >> And there is the problem. I don't find that noble. I find that spineless and not at all admirable. << HunterGreen: How is that spineless? He's not *afraid* of changing Snape, he just doesn't see that as his place. Yes, I know he's headmaster, but there's no real *reason* that Snape *has* to change his methods. (we could go in circles with this...but I don't see any reason Snape's methods are inappropriate for the school and society that *he is in*). From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 16 02:17:29 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 02:17:29 -0000 Subject: Phineas Nigellus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106490 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eeyore5497" wrote: > ... Phineas Nigellus which is Sirius' Great Great Grandfather, first > of all has a different last name ... > > #1- p. 826 that Phineas does not believe that Sirius the last of the > Blacks is dead and > #2 on p.828 it is stated that he still had not returned to his > portrait in Dumbledore's Study. > > Why would she state that he did not return if it wasn't significant? > Did she forget, I don't think so... Why didn't he come back? Did he > find something? > > eeyore5497 Asian_lovr2: Someone in this thread already said this (don't know who), but I will expand on their statement. If Nigelus had only one child, and that child was his daughter, and she married into the Black family, then for future generations, the Black family line would be the only remaining existance of his own blood line. Therefore, he would certainly have some on-going allegiance to the bloodline. Short version: His direct decended family name would die out, but his blood would live on in the Black family. Again, I believe his allegaince would follow his blood. As far as why, Migelus didn't return, I think the implication was that he was rearcing every room of the Black Mansion trying to find Sirius. Then I persume, when it was absolutely confirmed that Sirius was dead, he took time to grieve. I don't think it in any way implies that he is truly gone, he's not lost, he hasn't abondon Dumbledore or anything, he just needs some time to get over the shock. Just a few thoughts. Steve/asian_lovr2 From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 16 02:45:59 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 02:45:59 -0000 Subject: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106491 : > Pippin wrote previously: > >>> I think Dumbledore would consider it self-righteous in the > extreme--as he says, he has no power to make other men see the truth. > Meaning, as McGonagall would put it, that he does have that > power, he's just too noble to use it. <<< > > DZEYTOUN replied: > >> And there is the problem. I don't find that noble. I find that > spineless and not at all admirable. << > > HunterGreen: > How is that spineless? He's not *afraid* of changing Snape, he just > doesn't see that as his place. Yes, I know he's headmaster, but > there's no real *reason* that Snape *has* to change his methods. (we > could go in circles with this...but I don't see any reason Snape's > methods are inappropriate for the school and society that *he is in*). Alla: It is spineless, IF Dumbledore indeed thinks that Snape methods are inappropriate, even for the society he is in, but has a guilty conscience as to how he handled Snape in his youth and now he chooses to turn a blind eye to what he does to children to appease Snape somehow. For the record, I don't think that Dumbledore feels guilty as to handling Snape and marauders, I believe that we will learn that everybody got exactly what he deserved after Prank night (Yes, it is a speculation for now) I think the only reason Dumbledore lets Snape be in school is for "teaching how to deal with nasty people" bruhaha. From meltowne at yahoo.com Fri Jul 16 02:49:36 2004 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 02:49:36 -0000 Subject: Still wondering why Snape trusts DD! (was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106492 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: there has to be a REASON why > Snape, who was surely profoundly disappointed & angry that DD didn't > punish the Marauders after the prank, DID end up trusting DD enough > to return to his fold. Snape returned just before LV's defeat, at the hands of baby Harry. The timing suggests that Snape knew what LV was about to do, and couldn't go along with it. Perhaps Snape went over to LV in the first place at least in part because of the prank, but when LV announced that he planned to kill an innocent child, perhaps Snape's own past haunted him a bit, and he couldn't let that happen. Perhap killing Harry was one step too far over the line. The only way he had of stopping it (or at least trying) was to inform DD. He "grew up" suddenly and discovered that he had gotten himself involved in something truly evil, and wanted out. DD took him in, and offered him the same second chance he has given others (the Marauders in particular, but also Lupin just by the fact that he allowed him to attend Hogwarts). I suspect DD trusts Snape because he knows Snape took a great chance in telling him LV's plans, and because Snape does have a conscience, even if he's not a nice person. Snape trusts DD because he gave him that second chance. From navarro198 at hotmail.com Fri Jul 16 03:01:45 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 03:01:45 -0000 Subject: Cousins by marriage ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106493 Eris wrote: (although I'm not too clear on how this 'once removed' business works). Bookworm: As I understand the genealogy, Sirius and Andromeda are from the same generation, and are first cousins ? they share the same grandparents. As Andromeda's daughter, Tonks is Sirius' first cousin once removed. I think of it as straight lines between cousins in the same generation (first, second, etc.), and diagonal lines to the "removed" relatives who come from different generations. It gets really confusing when there are wide differences in age. My second cousin once removed is my age. Her grandmother was my mother's first cousin, so her father was my second cousin. Del replies: I disagree. The way Sirius said it, just after explaining that all the pureblood families are inter-related and that this means that the choice of partner is very limited if your kids are to be pure- bloods too, I take it to mean that *both* Molly and Arthur are blood relatives to Sirius. Bookworm: In theory, Molly and Sirius could be "cousins by marriage" if Molly's cousin married Sirius' cousin. There would be no blood relation between Molly and Sirius. In practice, however, you may be right. This could be an area JKR didn't think about in detail when she made them cousins by marriage, but said someplace else that all the families are related. Or it may be the relationship is so far up the family tree that it hardly matters. (Do you think we will ever fint out?) Ravenclaw Bookworm From drliss at comcast.net Thu Jul 15 21:47:31 2004 From: drliss at comcast.net (Lissa Hess) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:47:31 -0400 Subject: Sirius Luring Snape In-Reply-To: <1089925244.34777.52194.m2@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20040715173532.01e43e18@mail.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 106494 Nora: >And by the way, dear Kneasy, hell is freezing over...like you, I >can't make the situation of Snape and DD and the 'prank' make ANY >sense at all. Why would he go? How did it work? Damnifiknow. Lissa: I'm completely confounded as well as to how Dumbledore shut Snape up (aside from my purely speculative former-friend-of-Lupin theory), but I was talking to a friend the other night and she pointed something out: Did Sirius actually have to have a conversation with Snape to get him to go into the Shrieking Shack? I can't remember if it's been specifically stayed or not. Maybe Sirius knew Snape was following him, and went over and prodded the knot, making a show of being stealthy (if that makes any sense). Maybe he said really loudly to James, "Oh, any idiot can get into that tunnel we take. All you have to do is prod the knot- whoops!" when Snape was listening. Either of those methods might be "telling" Snape but not trying to convince him he should go. Although I feel like there's a lot more backstory with Snape and MWPP, I wonder if JKR's said all she's going to say about The Prank? Maybe it was just an illustration of how absolutely reckless and thoughtless Sirius could be, and how much he hated Snape, as well as motivation for Snape to truly hate Lupin when he showed up 12 years later as a fellow professor. (Snape: Ha! You might be a professor, but I have TENURE!) I'd also love to know if the incident matured Sirius at all, once he realized the effect it could have had on Lupin. (Also wonder if that's when Lupin learned to stand up to Sirius!) Anyway, the point was Sirius could have been more "subtle" (if that's the word you'd use here) than throwing his arm around Snape's shoulders and saying, "hey, buddy! Let's go to this cool spot I found!" But afterwards... I'll join the legions of the confused! Lissa From dzeytoun at cox.net Thu Jul 15 22:29:14 2004 From: dzeytoun at cox.net (dzeytoun) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:29:14 -0000 Subject: JKR and the Snape/Harry dynamic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106495 a wrote: > On her website, Jo says that Snape, while not of her favorite > characters, is one of her favorite characters to write. As Harry is > the character through which we must view Snape, this statement seems > to me to imply that she finds the Harry/Snape dynamic at least > mildly interesting... Oh certainly, I am sure she does find him fun to write else she would not continue writing him. What I mean is that I don't think she is obsessed with Severus and his contribution to the story in the way many of us are. As Neri said above, this is the Harry Potter saga, after all. JKR has expressed amazement and some consternation in the past when those of us in the fandom seem to lose track of that point and want to make it the Severus/Harry story or the Draco story or whatever. I think JKR probably sees Severus and his riddles as one part of a rather complicated whole. Other parts include Dumbledore, Ron, Hermione, the shipping question, etc. Severus is important to the story, but I don't know that he will loom as large as we often assume in our talks. That role is probably reserved for "the power that nobody knows." Dzeytoun From dontask2much at yahoo.com Fri Jul 16 00:25:03 2004 From: dontask2much at yahoo.com (charme) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:25:03 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily's Eyes & Blood References: Message-ID: <027201c46acb$5722cba0$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> No: HPFGUIDX 106496 > Gina: > Does anyone know if a unicorn or any other creature is said to have > green eyes or just really brilliant eyes? I always thought unicorns' > eyes were blue for some reason, but they may be green and if so we > could be onto something! Maybe Lily had unicorn blood and she was so > pure that LV could kill her, but his life is now cursed. Maybe that > is why he was having to survive on Unicorn blood - he had the shed > blood in his veins already and was already cursed with it. charme: >From the Unicorn Collector's site and reproduced just about everywhere I could find: "Their eyes can be any shade of color as a human's can be, or some tales claim that most Unicorn's eyes are pure blue like staring into the heavenly sky." So, I'm guessing either JKR has her own interpretation OR maybe Dumbledore is more likely to have unicorn blood - his eyes are described as, I think, something like "twinkling light blue." I think it's in one of the 1st chapters of PS/SS... don't have my book handy or I'd check for you. Hope this helps! charme From davidagabbard at yahoo.com Fri Jul 16 00:36:25 2004 From: davidagabbard at yahoo.com (davidagabbard) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 00:36:25 -0000 Subject: Vanquishing Voldemort Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106497 P 841 Order of the Phoenix American Edition: Dumbledore says: "that the person who has the only chance of conquering Lord Voldemort for good was born at the end of July, nearly sixteen years ago ." My question: How is Harry supposed to conquer Voldemort for good if their wands go priori incantatem on each other as they did in the graveyard? >From the results of Occlumency lessons with Prof. Snape, something tells me he and Harry won't be working together on a potion to take out the Dark Lord. Was that "force that is at once more wonderful and more terrible than death" that Harry possesses in such great quantities just a way to get him out of a fix or will Harry learn to harness it in HBP and Year 7? Harry doesn't need to study Defense Against the Dark Arts next year ? He needs Offense with the Light Arts. David From srae1971 at bellsouth.net Fri Jul 16 01:22:40 2004 From: srae1971 at bellsouth.net (Shannon) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 21:22:40 -0400 Subject: Percy...was Ron's "poor me" syndrome. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.1.20040715203758.00cede18@mail.bellsouth.net> No: HPFGUIDX 106498 Just a quick "Hello, I'm new" before diving into this thread... >Mayeaux wrote : > > Molly and Arthur only want their children to succeed and work hard > > because they want them to make something of themselves and get away > > from the *Weasley* stigma. > >Del replies : >But sadly, when one of their sons does *exactly* that, they crush him. >What Arthur did to Percy was cruel, and I don't blame Percy in the >least for losing his mind. While I agree with most everything you have to say about Ron, I have to disagree with this. What Arthur said to Percy was not the kindest thing he'd ever done, but really, I can't help but think Percy should have spent less time being wounded and more time *thinking* about what Arthur said. Look at it this way: Percy, from the first moment we meet him, is the overachiever of the Weasley family. He takes everything he does very seriously, and strives to be the absolute best. For this, he is praised by Molly and Arthur. They even tell Fred and George that they should be more like Percy. His every achievement is met with lavish praise and support, and rightfully so. Percy, understandably enough, expects that same reaction when he gets his promotion. But he doesn't get it. It's probably the first time in his life that he isn't praised by them for an achievement. I can certainly understand that he'd be hurt, and can even see him holding a grudge for a few weeks over it. But to do what he did? Reject the entire family, encourage Ron to dump his best friend, reject gifts from his mother, etc? Percy is intelligent enough that he should have been able to push the hurt aside long enough to think that his father, who always encouraged him and has years of experience with the workings of the Ministry and the Minister, might actually know what he's talking about. You'd think he'd give some thought to *why* his father would have that reaction. It would be a painful realization, especially for Percy who has always worked hard for his accomplishments, gained them fairly, and been praised for it. But it's the kind of thing Percy needs to understand is possible even for the hardest working, most sincere of them if he wants to negotiate the adult Wizarding world. Especially in the times that are coming. Shannon From lorelei3dg at yahoo.com Fri Jul 16 02:35:49 2004 From: lorelei3dg at yahoo.com (lorelei3dg) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 02:35:49 -0000 Subject: Prefects Who Gained Power In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106499 a wrote: > In Chamber of Secrets, Percy's reading a book called "Prefects Who > Gained Power: A study of Hogwarts prefects and their later careers"- > -I wonder if Lily is in this book... Interesting idea. I had never thought of Lily as having *power* in that sense. In fact, I'd noticed the same passage the other day and wondered if it foreshadowed Percy's own ambition in later books - and possibly a brush (or more) with Death Eaters in pursuit of that power. "lorelei3dg" From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 16 03:40:23 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 03:40:23 -0000 Subject: Sirius Luring Snape In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20040715173532.01e43e18@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106500 > > Lissa: > > I'm completely confounded as well as to how Dumbledore shut Snape up (aside > from my purely speculative former-friend-of-Lupin theory), but I was > talking to a friend the other night and she pointed something out: > > Did Sirius actually have to have a conversation with Snape to get him to go > into the Shrieking Shack? I can't remember if it's been specifically > stayed or not. snip. > Anyway, the point was Sirius could have been more "subtle" (if that's the > word you'd use here) than throwing his arm around Snape's shoulders and > saying, "hey, buddy! Let's go to this cool spot I found!" > > But afterwards... I'll join the legions of the confused! Alla; The problem is that it looks like Sirius did have a conversation with Snape and incredibly enough Snape bought it and went there. There must be something else, which we don't know yet. Here is the quote: "Sirius thought it would be -er-amusing, to tell Snape all he had to do was prod the knot on the tree-trunk with a long stick, and he'd be able to get in after me. Well, of course, Snape tried it - if he'd got as far as this house, he'd have met a fully grown werewolf" -PoA, brit,ed., p261 Snape believed Sirius' words of his own free will? If it is so, then he was an idiot, which even I doubt. Why does remus say -"of course Snape tried it?" Why is he so sure? From juli17 at aol.com Fri Jul 16 02:59:03 2004 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:59:03 EDT Subject: Death for Snape? ( was Re: FF: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books) Message-ID: <11.2e385326.2e289e77@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106501 Dzeytoun sez: > I rather suspect Snape will die before the end. I think we will > discover why Dumbledore trusts him, but I don't know that it will > be something that will endear him to Harry or most readers. In > the end I suspect Severus will be one of those people shuffled off > with a nice headstone that nobody ever reads because nobody cares > enough to visit the grave - except Dumbledore and maybe Harry now > and then if Snape does something REALLY spectacular. The great thing about the WW is that you can live on in several ways after you die. Assuming Snape does die, I wouldn't want to see him as a ghost (I'm also assuming he'd die redeeming himself and wouldn't have anything left unsettled in the real-WW-world). But wouldn't it be great if he has/had a portrait done? A Snape portrait, spouting sarcastic remarks, making snide observations...I'd want one! Maybe book Seven will end with Harry in his Auror's office, with portraits of those who influenced him (like Dumbledore) on his walls. Of course, this would mean that Harry and Snape will have reconciled most of their differences, achieving a grudging tolerance of, and respect for, each other before Snape's heroic death. And Harry keeps Snape on his wall, the one person always ready to call him on his impetuousness and temper--whether justified or not--as a way to keep his ego in check. I can see the adult-Auror Harry earning the same respect from Portrait!Snape that Dumbledore currently has from Snape, depending on how things play out in books 6&7. And, being the living person, Harry would always have the upper hand with Portrait!Snape ;-) Just a thought, Julie (who'd find it very entertaining to have talking portraits in her office!) From stargaz77 at aol.com Fri Jul 16 03:17:37 2004 From: stargaz77 at aol.com (celestina707) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 03:17:37 -0000 Subject: Phineas Nigellus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106502 "eeyore5497" wrote: > (snip) > Phineas does not believe that Sirius the last of the Blacks is dead; > on p.828 it is stated that he still had not returned to his portrait > in Dumbledore's study. Why would she state that he did not return if > it wasn't significant? Did she forget, I don't think so... > Why didn't he come back? Did he find something? I wonder if Phineas has a portrait in the Malfoy house and/or in the Lestrange house, would he or could he have gone to either to find out more about what happened to Sirius? Just a thought. Celestina (who knows there was a recent discussion regarding portraits but doesn't have time to read every post here :( From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Fri Jul 16 03:50:51 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 03:50:51 -0000 Subject: The Virtues of Hufflepuff House and Cedric Diggory (Was: Snape and . . .cour In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106503 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > HunterGreen: > > The sad thing is that Cedric was always looked upon as such > > a "surprise" in a way to the Hufflepuff house (which as its said > > over and over again in GoF, hardly ever gets any glory). The > > general attitude in the books is that being a Hufflepuff is > > nothing to be proud of. And I wonder how much of that is JKR's > > intention. > > PK: > JKR probably does mean to indicate that a lot of people > > look down on Hufflepuffs. I also would say that she means they are *wrong*. The qualities she gives Hufflepuff in sorting are almost unequivocally positive..... I think it's clear that she means for much of the wizarding world to have little consideration for the Hufflepuffs, and that the probable reason is that Hufflepuff virtues are simply not the terribly flashy kind or the most fun. They're harder to appreciate *in oneself* than the rest, especially for the immature; they may tend to be more often the wind beneath wings than the eagle. Utterly necessary, but invisible.... Valky; I agree with PK here are having given this some thought. I have realised that my *greatest failings* are the reasons that would rule me out of being sorted to the Hufflepuff house. Hardworking and meek I am most certainly not, I rely heavily on my intellect and fortitude under pressure to help me succeed, and I frequently scold myself that if I had just worked that little harder in the first place and not been so arrogant in so many ways, I'd be doing so much better for it in the long run. I wouldn't be worthy of Hufflepuff, although I am quite loyal I could hardly call myself a Hufflepuff. The virtue of Hufflepuff is above me and this is the way I see each of the houses. As above each other, all of them, in their own way. > > > Jen: But I do think JKR failed if she thinks the examples of > Cedric, Ernie and Hannah come across as duffers. Maybe she intends > the reader to look beyond Harry's POV here and see things as they > are, rather than taking his opinion as fact (and his opinion does > waver; in GOF he grew to admire Cedric and in OOTP he was glad to > get Ernie's support). > > Jen Reese Valky: I agree with Jen that JKR probably intends for us to look beyond Harry and his POV to see thing as they are. An example that comes to mind is Ravenclaw. Ravenclaw has been like a distant relative especially in the first three books where left to Harrys POV, we hardly see her. We *never* see her ghost. Luna is our most prominent Ravenclaw yet, aside from Cho, and I see Luna as an example thats realigns our thinking of what Ravenclaw is. Ravenclaw was before Luna, to me, a place where logic and rational process ruled where the power of the *left brain* was all important, leaving me to wonder why Hermione was never sorted there. Luna and even Cho and Marietta have rewritten Ravenclaw for me in OOtP. Luna is *wise* and THINKS *way too much*, Cho also thinks! thinks! thinks! this is apparent by her constant nostalgia about Cedric, and even Marietta when she turns on the DA is probably projecting thought herself which causes her to fear the consequences, there wasn't really any other reason for her to tell was there? I suppose if I had looked beyond Harry's POV in the first three books I would have realised then that Ravenclaw must be a little different to Hermione, but I didn't. I based my opinion of Ravenclaw on what Harry *could* see and came up with the wrong conclusion. Just an extra bit of rambling food for thought... All candidates have virtues that would fit more than one house. By a process of elimination I ruled myself out of Hufflepuff just now. Following that; I am a mite ambitious, but hardly cunning. I couldn't con my way out of a wet paper bag. So saying I'd have Slytherin ruled out also, if only because I like my Karma just the way it is. Leaving me with Ravenclaw and Gryffindor, both extremely fitting. I am the classic case of thought, thought it could with thought, and I am far tooo *stupidly* daring for my own good. All I really do right is think hard and jump into the deep end of difficult situations. So then which house? Following this logic I am left with the choice scenario. It would be my *choice* that dictates what I eventually become. If I chose a life of pondering and learning I would be happy, I would be comfortable there and true to myself. But if I had to give up one of these two it could never be, for me, the crazy life. Of course meaning that I like running headfirst into the throes just to take on the challenge, because it was there. If I chose a life of that, I guess I'd miss the quiet scholarly pace but it would be satisfactorily compensated, for me, by adventure. In the end it came down to a choice for me, and I wonder how common that really is. From jakejensen at hotmail.com Fri Jul 16 03:56:10 2004 From: jakejensen at hotmail.com (jakedjensen) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 03:56:10 -0000 Subject: Pureblood Vs. Halfblood (was Dudley as HBP??!!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106504 > Tilly adds: > Similarly the child of two muggle-born wizards is not "muggle- born". > Can't be. Both parents are wizards. Jake replies: First, what a fun discussion. Second, a child of two muggle-born wizards can be muggle-born because, according to the purists, they have no old family blood. Remember, muggle-blood refers to one's absence of old family blood (which, since there is only one other category possible, means the person has muggle-blood). So two muggle- bloods have nothing to give but muggle-blood. Hence the reason that Harry is a half-blood. Lily is magical, but has no old family blood to give. What makes one a muggle blood isn't that their parents aren't magical, it's that they lack old family blood. Tilly adds: > I think what complicates the matter is that there are really two > different viewpoints in the WW on the matter. There is the > Malfoy/Black viewpoint which is the whole oppressive, keep the > bloodline pure and the more reasonable Weasley/Dumbledore view. > Jake replies: I don't think there is a Weasley/DD view on this issue, except to say that they don't think blood matters at all. Hagrid says all this blood talk is "nonsense" (CoS). Tilly adds: > Then of course there are squibs, where do they fit in? I mean the son > of a squib (from a pureblooded family, of course) and a muggle. Would > he be muggle-born or a halfblood? :) > Jake replies: Squibs are the exception that, I think, proves the rule. See, squibs don't have magical blood, but they can still be connected to the bloodline. So squibs can still be pure-blood. The aristocracy can't have it any other way, because what if one of their own becomes a squib (by the way, I always thought a great t-shirt slogan would be "Squib Happens")? So, if a squib and a muggle-born had a child, the child would be half-blood (squibs relation to the bloodline). Just my thoughts, Jake > Tilly From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 16 04:34:08 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 04:34:08 -0000 Subject: James the Berk? In-Reply-To: <149.2dca127d.2e241d55@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106505 Batchevra wrote: Snape is not innocent, he spied to find something that he could use against any of the Marauders, just like Draco in PS/SS was out of his dorm to spy on Harry and Hermione when they gave Norbert to Charlie Weasley's friends. If Sirius had been expelled, and Lupin thrown out of the school because of what happened, Snape would have been expelled also, he was out of bounds and out of bed. Carol responds: We really don't know Severus' motive, do we? Why would he think that Lupin was doing anything wrong if he was being taken to the Shrieking Shack by Madam Pomfrey? Do we know that Severus actually saw the other three Marauders on their way to join him? Surely they would have worn the invisibility cloak. And he certainly never saw them transform into animals or he'd have told Dumbledore about it in PoA. And even if he did think they were doing something wrong and was spying on them, that's hardly sufficient reason to endanger his life by exposing him to the danger of being bitten by a werewolf. If Severus was wrong, Sirius was more wrong. Sirius knew perfectly well that Severus would be unable to resist satisfying his curiosity, especially in the form of a dare. Sirius also should have considered the consequences to himself and his friends before placing *them* in danger of expulsion or worse. If you don't care what might have happened to Severus, consider what would have happened to Remus because of what Sirius did. If he had not told Severus how to get past the Whomping Willow, none of them would have been in danger of expulsion or werewolf bites. Sirius showed a reckless disregard for the safety and happiness of everyone involved, himself included. Severus didn't know there was a werewolf involved. Sirius did. Sirius was the tempter and Severus was the tempted. There's really no other way to look at it. Also, Severus would not have been thrown out of school (unless he, too, was bitten and shared the same fate as Lupin). He would have been regarded (rightly) as the victim, even if he was unhurt. Yes, he might well have been punished for being out of bed and out of bounds, but if the punishment for breaking that rule were expulsion, Harry, Ron, Hermione, and Draco would all have been expelled as early as SS/PS. We know from their experiences that the punishment for that relatively minor infraction is detention, not expulsion. Causing serious injury to another student or bringing about that student's death would have been, of course, an entirely different matter. Even wilfully causing the risk of death or injury is criminal negligence. The adult Snape's belief that Sirius got off too easily is entirely understandable regardless of whether Sirius wanted to kill him or merely scare him. I'm not saying that Severus was wholly innocent, but he was not as guilty as Sirius, who placed him in extreme danger as punishment for being a busybody. The punishment does not fit the crime and it was not Sirius' job to administer it. Carol, who has left James out of this discussion because she's not sure whether he knew all along what Sirius was up to or somehow found out just in time From patientx3 at aol.com Fri Jul 16 04:53:18 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 04:53:18 -0000 Subject: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore and flaws in the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106506 Alla wrote: >>It is spineless, IF Dumbledore indeed thinks that Snape methods are inappropriate, even for the society he is in, but has a guilty conscience as to how he handled Snape in his youth and now he chooses to turn a blind eye to what he does to children to appease Snape somehow.<< HunterGreen: Well, that wouldn't be spineless, it would be more of pity or a misplacement of values. I don't think Snape would care much for that either. If Dumbledore had an actual heavy problem with the way Snape teaches (meaning that he thought Snape was doing the children serious harm), then I doubt he wouldn't say anything. Even if he felt guilty or honorbound to Snape in someway, Dumbledore's not the type to just ignore it. My feeling is that if he disagrees, its just that: a disagreement. As in, its not the way *he* would do it, but its not entirely wrong either. I've had that feeling before at my work, when I see people doing things differently than how I'd do them, but its not hurting anything, so I'm not going to be a jerk and go up and insist that they switch to *my* way. >>For the record, I don't think that Dumbledore feels guilty as to handling Snape and marauders, I believe that we will learn that everybody got exactly what he deserved after Prank night (Yes, it is a speculation for now)<< HunterGreen: I don't think he does either. I doubt any punishment short of death or life in Azkaban would be enough punishment for Sirius in Snape's eyes. I doubt that he got off with *nothing*, just that Snape feels he should have been expelled. Snape does have a *small* point there, however, since whatever punishment it was, was not enough to make Sirius realize the seriousness (no pun intended) of what he had done, and regret it. Buuuut, short of the prank going as planned, I doubt nothing would have been enough to make Sirius understand just how wrong he was. >>I think the only reason Dumbledore lets Snape be in school is for "teaching how to deal with nasty people" bruhaha.<< HunterGreen: And I don't think there has to be a 'reason' why lets Snape teach besides the surface one: Snape is a good potionmaker, and the school needed a potions teacher. There hasn't been a strong enough reason to *fire* him, in my opionion. (and it would have to come down to that, because the moment Dumbledore told him to 'tone down the nastiness', Snape would either refuse or quit--its just not in his nature). From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Fri Jul 16 04:55:57 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 16 Jul 2004 04:55:57 -0000 Subject: Dragons and Diary Message-ID: <20040716045557.24308.qmail@webmail8.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106507 - From: "mcmaxslb" - Not really. The DA is a little like the dueling club in CoS and now - it can meet openly. Mind you, one of the appeals of the DA was that - it was a secret. I think Dumbledore will encourage the meetings now - that the war is on in earnest. Amey: Yes, but the DA was meeting of very few students. Imagine if the activity continues on a larger scale. Imagine some slytherin moving around with the kind of dueling skills DA members learnt. I hate to think further. I think DA will continue, but at the same level as it is now. - Carol, trying not to think of the old Disney movie, "Pete's Dragon" - Seriously, I would think that dragons would be - associated with either courage or cunning, but not being up on that - branch of mythology, I'd be interested in hearing from the experts. If - I'm right and Hermione's wand has a dragon heartstring core, what are - the implications? (And wouldn't those wands be rather rarer than - unicorn tail hair cores because the animal has to die and can only - contribute one heartstring? I can't see Mr. Ollivander killing dragons - himself at his age, even if he does pull out unicorn tail hairs. He'd - have to get them from a distributor of dragon parts.) Amey: Sorry to jump in late. You got me started on thinking of mythology and all. Remember Dragonheart? A dragon gives a part of his heart to somebody and still he lives, and also makes the person live as long as he lives. Is it same? What I mean is, does dragon have to die to give a heartstring? I don?t think any other creature has to die to give material for wand, so why only dragon. I think there must be some non-violent way (on Ollivander?s part, maybe not on dragon?s) to get the heartstring. Otherwise, think of the unicorn tried to gore him for one hair of its tail, what would the dragon do? Also one more thing, in eastern cultures, mainly Chinese, dragons are considered as a symbol or representation of phoenix. Any thoughts anyone??? - Leeann wondered that herself: - Not sure, I can't reference OoP right now, but was there any Order guard - posted after Arthur was attacked by the snake/Harry? I would think that the - order would have to find another way to "post a guard" after that night. - Would it be wise to continue to place an order member outside that door when - the MOM and DEs know about them? Would it be wise to flaunt the fact that - you know LV wants in to Dept of Mysteries? Amey: I would be sorry for that member. We don?t get any references, but they must have had to keep somebody there. I mean, even if there is one attack, LV is not going to stop till the time he gets the prophesy, right? Maybe they kept watch till they knew Harry saw about Avery (sorry, not sure) telling LV that only the mentioned persons can get prophesy. Because in the condition Fudge was, he could hardly listen to Dumbledore saying that LV would want the prophesy and keep it under guard. - Aggie: - Yes, yes, yes, I UNDERSTAND that, what I didn't understand was how - - It just doesn't add up! But thanks for trying!! Amey: But Tom tells us why he took Ginny in the Chamber. It was a plan to lure Harry there. "Haven't I already told you," said Riddle quietly, "that killing Mudbloods doesn't matter to me anymore? For many months now, my new target has been -you." (CoS) So, what I think is it was Lucius? plan to discredit Arthur (how he was planning to prove it we won?t know), but LV does not like to confirm to others? plans. He has got his own plans. Amey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stargaz77 at aol.com Fri Jul 16 04:09:36 2004 From: stargaz77 at aol.com (celestina707) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 04:09:36 -0000 Subject: Vanquishing Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106508 David wrote: > P 841 Order of the Phoenix American Edition: > > Dumbledore says: "that the person who has the only chance of > conquering Lord Voldemort for good was born at the end of July, > nearly sixteen years ago ." > > My question: How is Harry supposed to conquer Voldemort for good > if their wands go priori incantatem on each other as they did in > the graveyard? There was a thread recently about the prophecy at the end of OofP, in which "one has to die at the HAND of the other", which can be interpreted as Harry needing to vanquish Voldemort with his hands, and not his wand, as we know that priori incantatem will be a problem again if they duel once more. I thought it was a brilliant idea, btw. Celestina From Batchevra at aol.com Fri Jul 16 05:07:35 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 01:07:35 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: James the Berk? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106509 In a message dated 7/16/04 12:38:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, justcarol67 at yahoo.com writes: >Batchevra wrote: Snape is not innocent, he spied to find something that he could use against any of the Marauders, just like Draco in PS/SS was out of his dorm to spy on Harry and Hermione when they gave Norbert to Charlie Weasley's friends. If Sirius had been expelled, and Lupin thrown out of the school because of what happened, Snape would have been expelled also, he was out of bounds and out of bed. Carol responds: We really don't know Severus' motive, do we? Why would he think that Lupin was doing anything wrong if he was being taken to the Shrieking Shack by Madam Pomfrey? Do we know that Severus actually saw the other three Marauders on their way to join him? Surely they would have worn the invisibility cloak. And he certainly never saw them transform into animals or he'd have told Dumbledore about it in PoA.< I didn't say I knew Snape's motives, but I do know that Dumbledore told the school that the Whomping Willow was off limits to the student body, because Davey Gudgeon almost got his eye hurt. We know this because Lupin told Harry when he was asking about Harry's broom. So Snape was already breaking a school rule when he went through the Whomping Willow to the Shrieking Shack. We know that the Shack is on the outskirts of Hogsmeade and off Hogwarts campus, so another school rule that Snape broke. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From patientx3 at aol.com Fri Jul 16 05:29:34 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 05:29:34 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius lure Severus into the Willow? (was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106510 Neri wrote: >>> James did run after Severus and saved his life. Snape belittles this in the Shack (in PoA), but we know that as late as SS/PS Snape had still considered himself in debt to James. So the shaken 16 yrs old Severus, who had just saw Death in the form of a full-blown werewolf and was dragged back by James, is likely to see it this way even more. Or perhaps it was DD who gently but surely pointed this to him, in the best of DD's style. <<< Carol replied: >> I think Neri is on the right track here, but I would add that Severus' fear of humiliation is probably the crucial factor. I think Dumbledore probably pointed out to Severus that if he revealed what he knew, not only would the whole school (and probably the WW) know that he had been tricked by Sirius Black, they would know that his life had been saved by the even-more-hated James Potter, to whom he now owed a life debt. << HunterGreen (who is surprised that no one else responded to this post): I think this theory makes the most sense out of all the others. I really can't see Snape being the type to respond to a threat, and I don't see Dumbledore as the type to make one. I imagine that after hearing the whole story, and finding out that Snape found out about Lupin being a werewolf, Dumbledore took Snape aside, and spoke to him alone, and asked him not to tell. Yes, I know he was 'forbidden' not to tell according to Lupin, I believe, but they may have only heard that secondhand. Again, I just can't see Snape being intimidated enough to keep his mouth shut, especially about something like this. Humiliation, on the other hand, particularily in his teens, when he's already not all that popular, that would keep him quiet, and what makes it easy to swallow is that Dumbledore wouldn't be involved at all. If Snape took off and told everyone about Werewolf!Lupin, then Sirius or James would immediately spread the WHOLE story of that night around to get revenge. (I know, I know, speculatation, but all within their character). >>So whatever Sirius's punishment would have been, probably expulsion,<< HunterGreen: So, do you think Dumbledore only didn't expell Sirius because he was trying to keep the situation quiet? I don't know if I agree or not. I think he might have found a punishment short of expulsion for Sirius, since expulsion at this point would be rather dangerous for him (considering at this point Sirius may have already run away from home, and he'd just proven himself as a person who doesn't think things through). OTOH, if Sirius *hadn't* run away from home yet, I wonder how his parents would react if he were expelled? Yes, they don't like him, but does that mean they've disassociated themselves with him already? I'm thinking in terms of what would happen if Dumbledore expelled Draco, there would be SOME backlash, I'm sure. So perhaps it did having something to do with keeping the whole matter quiet. Carol: >>Nevertheless, I think Snape is still trying to pay off that life debt (which he didn't succeed in doing in SS/PS because of Hermione's interference), as well as trying to keep Harry from endangering his life needlessly because he's the key to destroying Voldemort.<< HunterGreen: I'm not sure I agree. I know *Dumbledore* has stated that Snape has a life-debt to James, but, as others on this thread have pointed out, Snape has never confirmed that. The whole situation is a little sketchy to me, its not a clear-cut case of 'saving someone's life' like with Harry and Peter, its sort of gray area-ish (because we don't know for *sure* that Lupin would have killed Snape), even moreso because Snape felt that James was in on the prank in the first place. Does it count as saving someone's life if you're the one who endangered it in the first place? Carol: >> Snape is not trying to keep Harry out of Hogsmeade to be nasty, for example. He's trying to prevent him from being murdered by his own old enemy, Sirius Black, whom he has every reason to believe is capable of murder. His efforts to prevent Harry from going to the MoM are even stronger evidence that his desire to save Harry's life (and end the life debt) did not end with SS/PS. << HunterGreen: I saw that more as him doing his duty as either a teacher or an order member. It appears to be an unwritten part of the job description at Hogwarts to protect children from certain, er, 'dangers'. Snape is not the type to standby and let *anyone* be killed if he can help it (example being his sarcastic comment to Crabbe or Goyle in OotP for them not to squeeze Neville so hard...not some sweeping act of heroicy, but it worked). From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 16 05:56:05 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 05:56:05 -0000 Subject: Who's the third dead death eater? / 'One who's left me forever...' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106511 kandbmom wrote: I actually think that Snape is there because he felt > the mark burn and went. There is no account for Snape during that > period so we don't know if he is missing. I believe that he was > there on his own and may or may not have chosen whom to side with. I think that Harry saw him but, did not know that it was him. Most of > the DEs wore hoods and disguised themselves even within the group. Carol responds: Two small points. 1) You can't apparate from Hogwarts, and there's no way that Snape would have had time to leave the tournament unseen by Dumbledore, grab a Death Eater's mask and hood, run to Hogsmeade, apparate, attend the meeting, apparate back, run to his office to discard the mask and hood, and return to the tournament. 2) We *do* know his whereabouts. He saw Karkaroff flee the tournament when Cedric and Harry touched the cup and disappeared, and he was with Dumbledore to confront Crouch!Moody immediately after Harry returned. He's right there on hand to serve as Dumbledore's righthand man, as usual. And note his appearance in the Foe Glass along with Dumbledore and McGonagall as an enemy of Crouch!Moody. There's also Snape's remark to Karkaroff that he intends to remain at Hogwarts whether Karkaroff flees or not--which of course is exactly what Karkaroff does. As for Snape, the mark must have burned him, too, but it seems certain that he remained where he was and suffered the pain in silence. I don't know the cause of the sudden movement, which seems to relate to Lucius Malfoy rather than to Snape himself. Remember that Harry's scar first pained him when Snape was looking at him, a red herring to make us think that Snape rather than Quirrell!mort was the villain in SS/PS. This strikes me as that same sort of false clue. Carol From theadimail at yahoo.co.in Fri Jul 16 06:57:28 2004 From: theadimail at yahoo.co.in (theadimail) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 06:57:28 -0000 Subject: Whose point of view ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106512 > > Sylvia wrote: > > Hi Neri > > It wouldn't matter if David Copperfield had twenty times the > > (considerable) number of characters Dickens employs, the story > would > > still be seen entirely from David's POV, just as the HP books are > > seen entirely from Harry's. Harry Potter books aren't written from Harry's point of view. They are written from the author's bird-eye-view, if one may call it that. Remember the first chapter of Book4 where the point of view shifted to the action in the Riddle house though Harry wasn't there. Though Harry was dreaming all this, it wasn't written like that. First the action was presented, then it was told that Harry had also been dreaming about the incidents. If it had been written from Harry's point of view, it should have started with Harry sleeping on his bed la la la and then gone onto the Riddle House, as it happens with the many dreams Harry has in Book5. Well, my argument is the books aren't written from Harry's point of view as David Copperfield or any other first person narratives are. They are written from the point of view of an omniscient author who most of the time confines herself to decribing Harry's actions but can deviate from the rote whenever the suspense or narrative demands it. Well, I missed the start of this thread and I'm making only this point, so I'll rename it. Bye Adi From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com Fri Jul 16 07:05:49 2004 From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 07:05:49 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106513 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Regina Olshan > wrote: > > > I would still be interested to know whether it is the > > view of those who do not believe R/H have feelings for > > each other, that JKK does not know/care that this is > > being presented to the contrary in the movies? I > > cannot believe that. > > Mike: > > I believe even the most diehard H/Hr shippers (myself included) will > admit that Ron fancies Hermione. However, it really doesn't appear > as though Hermione feels this way back. (This from book canon > anyways). The the PoA movie, Hermione has a few scenes where she > grabs Ron's hand, hugs him and a few more things. Conversely, she > does this to Harry a lot too. I noticed this the first time, and > when I went to see it a second time, I realized the number of times > she shows affection for Ron, she does an equal number of times for > Harry. My reaction was "blast, way to still keep it hidden." > > Regina: > > I think movies may be consistent with either R/H > > outcome or current R/H interest which ultimately > > changes for some reason to lead to a different outcome > > (H/H or other) but is not consistent and cannot be > > made consistent with the "no R/H interest" theory. > > Mike: > > The movies may be consistent with R/H because they, like us, have no > idea how the series is going to end. Once again, avid H/Hr shippers > will realize that the Ron/Hermione bickering and his blatant > affection towards Hermione is rather obvious. You can either make a > movie with small subtle things that hint to H/Hr, or you can go with > the obvious looking one. I myself however, still don't think the > movies show anything either way at this point. Now me: Delurking here to quickly make a point that has been eating at me quite a bit. In the books, the standard line of thinking is that the bickering between Ron and Hermione indicates that there are unspoken and unacknowledged feelings that cause awkwardness between them. The wisdom behind this thinking says that the physical contact which Harry and Hermione readily engage in indicates strongly that they are ??not?? attracted to each other because if they were they would have a ??problem?? making physical contact with each other. Now we see the movies and there are, I believe, two entirely contradictory scenes presented ?V in one, Ron reacts with embarrassment when Hermione simply touches his hand. Hermione also reacts to Ron??s reaction and the two have an awkward moment. Later, they seem to demonstrate awkwardness even speaking with each other and we are meant to interpret this as feelings developing on BOTH their parts. Then we get the hug. Was I the only non R/Hr shipper asking ??what the???. Are they awkward around each other or not? She can??t touch his hand but he has no problem with a full body hug? And if a hug between Ron and Hermione can still be indicative of feelings on both their parts, why not the many instances of hugging, hand holding, touching, protecting between Harry and Hermione? In my opinion, the complete confusion in the portrayal of R/Hr in the movies developed exactly ??because?? no real evidence of Hr ?? R exists in the books and something had to be created to represent it. Sienna A confused H/Hr shipper who'd like to point out that in canon the 'only' person Hermione turns to in moments of fear and upset for comfort and security is Harry. From paul_terzis at yahoo.gr Fri Jul 16 08:17:25 2004 From: paul_terzis at yahoo.gr (paul_terzis) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:17:25 -0000 Subject: The unusual Gift? SHIP:Hermione's feelings for Ron in OotP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106514 > Anasazi wrote: > "'I've been wanting that New Theory of Numerology for ages! And that > perfume's really UNUSUAL, Ron.'" > > Gina wrote: > Now girls lets be honest shall we? If your secret crush gave you an old > sock (assuming you are not a house elf) you would say "Oh, it's lovely" no > matter what because this is not a gift from your husband of 20 years but of > a love that you alone know about and that you probably wonder if he feels > the same so ANY gift would be great whether you really wanted it or not and > you would make quite the fuss over it THUS "I've been wanting a sock like > that for ages!" You would not say "that sock is really UNUSUAL". > > * Gina - who still has a rock painted like a gold nugget a sweetie > gave her in 7th grade even with all the paint gone > > > I have to add something else to the conversation. I am not quite familiar with the superstitions of your countries. But here in Greece we avoid to give perfume as a present to people we care and love. It symbolizes seperation and clash between the person who gives the perfume and the one who receives the perfume. The only way to counter the bad effect is the person who accepts the perfume, to give back to the person who gives the perfume a couple of coins. Just for info!!! Cheers, Paul From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Fri Jul 16 08:52:26 2004 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:52:26 -0000 Subject: The Virtues of Hufflepuff House and Cedric Diggory (Was: Snape and . . .cour In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106515 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "huntergreen_3" wrote: > > HunterGreen: > I'm not so sure. What about Hufflepuff always being the lowest (or > second-lowest if something specific has happened with Gryffindor) in > house points at the end of the year? Hickengruendler: This was only in book 1. We don't know if this is the standard. To make the triumph of Gryffindor complete, they had to beat Slytherin in the end. If they had beaten Hufflepuff or Ravenclaw, it wouldn't have been that satisfying. That means, Slytherin had to have more points than the other two houses, and then either Hufflepuff or Ravenclaw must have the lowest number of points. That said, I do think that there are some "duffers" in Hufflepuff, probably more than in the other houses (although none of the Hufflepuffs we've met so far come even close to Crabbe and Goyle). But I disagree that we are supposed to see the house negative. In fact, I would say that loyalty is one of the virtues that it will be truly central in the next two books. And Hufflepuff in itself represents loyalty. Don't forget we have seen several evil Slytherins, one evil Gryffindor (Peter, and no, I don't buy at all that he was in a different house than the other Marauders), a Ravenclaw as traitor in the DA, but so far no evil or treacherous Hufflepuffs. The most unsympathetic Hufflepuff, Zacharias, might be snotty and arrogant, but nonetheless he remained loyal to the DA. I also think, that one of the themes in the books is, that those who are underestimated by the wizarding world will become some of Harry's and umbledore's best and most loyal supporters during the second war, and I wouldn't be surprised at all, if most Hufflepuffs will be among them. Or that their Head of House is > Profressor Sprout, who teaches a much less taxing class than > Transfiguration or Potions or Charms? (nothing against Sprout, of > course, just than when compared to McGonagal or Snape she's doesn't > seem as impressive). [i'm suddenly blanking on their animal, but I > seem to remember it also being less impressive, compared to a lion or > a snake]. It's a badger. And yes, it's less impressive than a lion, a snake or an eagle. But which of these animals do you want to meet in real life (other than in the zoo, of course *g*)? >And there's still the matter of the Sorting Hat's song that > I mentioned upthread. Although it could have just been a reflection > of Helga Hufflepuff's philosphies, I think that's what it was. And I will go even further. I think that it shows, that not only Salazar Slytherin, but also Godric Gryffindor and Rowena Ravenclaw were biased people, who only accept the students they consider to be worthy. The difference might be, that Slytherin judged the students by their blood, and Gryffindor and Ravenclaw at least by their virtues (and of course there's the tiny difference that only Slytherin put a monster in the Chamber of Secrets to kill all the students he didn't like). Nonetheless, judging from the description in the chapter "The Sorting Hat's new song", Gryffindor and Ravenclaw seem to me like Snobs at best, racists at worst, who consider some people to be worthier than others. Hickengruendler From ariston3344 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 16 05:38:14 2004 From: ariston3344 at yahoo.com (ariston3344) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 05:38:14 -0000 Subject: Patronus at DADA OWL (was Re: Harry's Future...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106516 Delwynmarch: > Nobody else was given a chance to grab extra points in their DADA > OWL by producing a Patronus, ... Asian_lovr2 replied: > I wasn't extra points, it was ONE extra point ... > That said, I really wanted Harry leap to his feet and say, "Yeh, > I can but I'm not the only one. Hey, Ernie; show them your > Patronus!" Then proceed to have every available member of the DA > cast a Patronus just to rub Umbridge's nose in it. Now ariston3344: It sure would have been nice to see that! But even if Harry was thinking that (and not just focusing on his own exam), why would he want to blow a hole in the cover story that the DA only met once? At this point in the story, it's not obvious how long Umbridge will remain installed at Hogwarts. Everyone already knows Harry can produce a Patronus, but there would be no good explanation of how the others learned. -ariston From paul_terzis at yahoo.gr Fri Jul 16 10:44:12 2004 From: paul_terzis at yahoo.gr (paul_terzis) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:44:12 -0000 Subject: Book 6 question: Who will be the mentor for Harry ? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106517 At last I manage to rest from the shipping war and enter to the other front, the wizard war. Lets start, shall we? We have HP in OOTP learning from AD that he is destined to kill or to be killed. My immediate thought was how on earth HP will be trained to kill. We know that killing curses are part of the dark arts. We also know that only Aurors from the light side of magic can use killing curses or at least that was the trend to the first Voldermort War. So who will train HP? The new DADA teacher? Taking also into consideration the fact that killing curses require from the caster a rather evil "approach" (you have to mean it) I still can't define who will take the responsibility to intruduce HP ,who is emotionally vulnerable at this moment, to the Dark arts or to a certain portion of them. Will this happen with the approval of AD, who is dogmaticaly against dark arts, or in spite of him? Any thoughts my friends? Cheers, Paul From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 16 11:55:04 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:55:04 -0000 Subject: JKR and the Snape/Harry dynamic Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106518 Neri, we seem to be talking at cross purposes, almost certainly my fault - apologies. Obviously, if you count every single character mentioned in the Potter books, JKR wins by a mile. Also, we are talking about five books as opposed to a single Dickens one. I don't think you can count people merely mentioned in passing, who never actually appear, as characters. Don't know why I am going on about Dickens on an HP site. Quantity doesn't necessarily equal quality and Dickens is a great writer, while JKR is merely a very very good one. OK, kill me now. Sylvia (who is listening to Elvis singing The Girl of My Best Friend while typing this, and wondering whether it will be Ron or Harry singing along.) From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Fri Jul 16 12:26:10 2004 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (davewitley) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:26:10 -0000 Subject: Harry and Hagrid (re: Two Crazy Theories) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106520 Hans: > So Harry will die, and take over Hagrid's job. Does sound rather > crazy, > doesn't it. Yet that is what will happen as indicated by the > Alchemical > Wedding. Iris: > I think it's logical if Harry's story ends `at > Hagrid's': Hagrid is the one who introduced `literally' Harry in the > series, when he brought him to Privet Drive. To us readers, it > started `with Hagrid', so It would be normal if it happened to > finish `with Hagrid', or at least, with Hagrid's function. > Second, though he seems to have a subaltern job, Hagrid is in a way > the true master of Hogwarts, because, as you pointed it, he's the > Keeper of Keys and Grounds. Dumbledore, far from considering Hagrid > as a subordinate, treats him as an equal. And that idea appears > since the very first chapter of the series, when he says to Mac > Gonagall: `I would trust Hagrid with my life'. You don't have to be dead to do Hagrid's job, but it helps. The first time you go to Hogwarts, he takes you across in a ferry. He owns a three-headed dog. He may be the 'Keeper of Keys and Grounds *at* Hogwarts', but where is he the Keeper *of*? "I would trust Hagrid with my life" may thus be a quite literal prediction. The book begins with the Dursleys, Dumbledore, McGonagall, Hagrid, and Harry, with Sirius hovering just offstage. If Hagrid *is* the veil, we can still have the exact same configuration at the close. Hagrid can usher Harry off the stage, no doubt using transportation provided by Sirius, away from the mundane world of the Dursleys, into the next great adventure with Dumbledore. Minerva's job, presumably, will be to be POV character. Wisdom is not wisdom until it is available to us all. David From meriaugust at yahoo.com Fri Jul 16 12:48:39 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:48:39 -0000 Subject: Vanquishing Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106522 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "celestina707" wrote: > David wrote: > > P 841 Order of the Phoenix American Edition: > > > > Dumbledore says: "that the person who has the only chance of > > conquering Lord Voldemort for good was born at the end of July, > > nearly sixteen years ago ." > > > > My question: How is Harry supposed to conquer Voldemort for good > > if their wands go priori incantatem on each other as they did in > > the graveyard? > > > There was a thread recently about the prophecy at the end of OofP, in > which "one has to die at the HAND of the other", which can be > interpreted as Harry needing to vanquish Voldemort with his hands, > and not his wand, as we know that priori incantatem will be a problem > again if they duel once more. I thought it was a brilliant idea, btw. > > > Celestina There's also this point, nitpicky as it is. But the whole reverse spell effect comes only if two brother wands are forced to duel each other. I've read the speculation that Harry might use another wizard's wand to fight, so what if either he or LV lost their own wands at a critical juncture and then...something happens. Meri From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 16 13:10:10 2004 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:10:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and Hagrid (was: Two Crazy Theories) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040716131010.40731.qmail@web25105.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106523 Hans: > So Harry will die, and take over Hagrid's job. Does sound rather > crazy, doesn't it. Yet that is what will happen as indicated by the > Alchemical Wedding. Iris: > I think it's logical if Harry's story ends `at Hagrid's. [...] Dumbledore says to Mac Gonagall: `I would trust Hagrid with my life'. Dave Witley: The first time you go to Hogwarts, he takes you across in a ferry. He owns a three-headed dog. [...] "I would trust Hagrid with my life" may thus be a quite literal prediction. Hagrid can usher Harry off the stage, no doubt using transportation provided by Sirius, away from the mundane world of the Dursleys, into the next great adventure with Dumbledore.[...] Hans again: A very interesting idea, Dave. Thanks for the response. It's not quite what I had in mind, but then again, why not? Hagrid as Charon. Hm. ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Jul 16 13:42:39 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:42:39 -0000 Subject: Patronus at DADA OWL (was Re: Harry's Future...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106524 The Sergeant Majorette wrote : > > Those other students who could produce a Patronus only knew how to do > it because Harry taught it to them. > > So really, if those students had gotten a chance to get those extra > points, Harry should have gotten *more* bonus points for every one > who succeeded. Not only could the boy produce a corporeal Patronus as > a third-year, he was able to teach others to do it as a fifth-year! Del replies : LOL ! All right, but only if Hermione gets extra points for all those spells she's taught Harry ;-) Del From jelly92784 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 16 13:47:53 2004 From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (jelly92784) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:47:53 -0000 Subject: Whose point of view ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106525 > > > Sylvia wrote: > > > It wouldn't matter if David Copperfield had twenty times the > > > (considerable) number of characters Dickens employs, the story > > would > > > still be seen entirely from David's POV, just as the HP books are > > > seen entirely from Harry's. > Adi: >> Well, my argument is the books aren't written from Harry's point of > view as David Copperfield or any other first person narratives are. > They are written from the point of view of an omniscient author who > most of the time confines herself to decribing Harry's actions but > can deviate from the rote whenever the suspense or narrative demands > it. I somewhat agree with both of your points. The Harry Potter books are writen in what's called a limited omniscient point of view. This means that although it's not entirely Harry's point of view(first person), the story follows him. He is the only character who's head the narrator can get into, we never hear the thoughts of any other character, we never hear conversations between characters that Harry himself isn't hearing with the exception of the first chapter of SS. This gives the reader a very limited perspective, if we had access to the other characters' thoughts or conversations a lot of the questions that we debate here would be answered for us, we would possibly know all about dumbledore's plans for harry, and why he trusts snape, we might know whether or not snape truly deserves that trust, we might know how hermione and ron really feel about each other, we might realize Percy's reasoning behind his actions in book 5. The point is that we dont have access to this information because harry doesn't have access to this information and we'll have to wait and find out when and if he does, and in the mean time, we can have a whole lot of fun speculating! hope this helps Janelle From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Jul 16 14:15:25 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:15:25 -0000 Subject: The Virtues of Hufflepuff House and Cedric Diggory (Was: Snape and . . .cour In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106526 HunterGreen: >[i'm suddenly blanking on their animal, but I seem to remember it also > being less impressive, compared to a lion or a snake]. Del replies : Good point ! And yet another example of how the reader needs to dig a bit to figure out Hufflepuff's qualities. Gryffindor : lion Slytherin : snake Ravenclaw : eagle Hufflepuff : badger Well, sure, a badger is definitely less "noble" than the other 3. But the next thing that strikes me while considering that list is that the first 3 are *dangerous* animals that pretty much spend their lives hunting down preys to eat (all 3 of them are exclusively carnivorous if I'm not mistaken). The badger, on the other hand, spends its life burrowing, and though it can eat small animals, it's not its exclusive food. Another interesting comparison is the colours of each House. Gryffindor : red and gold Slytherin : green and silver Ravenclaw : blue and bronze Hufflepuff : yellow and black Once again, Hufflepuff stands apart. The other 3 Houses all chose a noble metal as one of their colours (aren't they the 3 metals of the medals given to the 3 winners of a sport competition ?). But Hufflepuff just took black and yellow. Nothing noble. Could it be another sign of the Hufflepuffs' humility ? They don't try to stand out, they don't pride themselves on their accomplishments, unlike the other 3 Houses. The Hufflepuffs pride themselves on doing their job as best they can. They truly rejoice when one of them gets a bit of fame, but they don't ask for that fame. I think I like them more and more :-) Del From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 16 14:19:45 2004 From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:19:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Life Debts to Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040716141945.54867.qmail@web25302.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106527 Udderpd I was doing some digging and this thought struck me. We know that Wormtail ows Harry a life debt from PoA Does Ginny from the CoS And do: Snape, Ron and Hermione From the Dementors in PoA. I did not include Sirius because he is dead, although JKR has said some funny things about Sirisus's death. Just somthing to ponder. TTFN Udder Pen Dragon ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Jul 16 14:24:43 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:24:43 -0000 Subject: Cousins by marriage ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106528 I, Del, wrote : > I disagree. The way Sirius said it, just after explaining that all > the pureblood families are inter-related and that this means that > the choice of partner is very limited if your kids are to be pure- > bloods too, I take it to mean that *both* Molly and Arthur are blood > relatives to Sirius. Bookworm answered : > In theory, Molly and Sirius could be "cousins by marriage" if > Molly's cousin married Sirius' cousin. There would be no blood > relation between Molly and Sirius. In practice, however, you may be > right. Del replies : You could be right too, it would fit better with the text. What I was disagreeing with was the idea that Molly was Sirius's cousin by marriage because she had married Arthur, a blood relative of Sirius (but now that I think of it in light of this post, I'm not even sure that's what the poster I was answering to actually meant). But I think now that I was probably half-wrong : from what Sirius said, Molly was indeed a relative by marriage of Sirius before she married Arthur, but it's not clear that she was blood-related to him. Though that would contradict the statement that all the pureblood families are inter-related. OI, my head hurts !! Bookworm wrote : > This could be an area JKR didn't think about in detail when she made > them cousins by marriage, but said someplace else that all the > families are related. Or it may be the relationship is so far up > the family tree that it hardly matters. (Do you think we will ever > fint out?) Del replies : I would think it's probably a case of one of two extremes : either JKR did figure everything out in detail, and those things will play an important role later. Or she didn't and we'll never hear about them again. Del From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Jul 16 14:48:26 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:48:26 -0000 Subject: Percy...was Ron's "poor me" syndrome. In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.1.20040715203758.00cede18@mail.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106529 Shannon wrote : > Look at it this way: Percy, from the first moment we meet him, is > the overachiever of the Weasley family. He takes everything he does > very seriously, and strives to be the absolute best. For this, he is > praised by Molly and Arthur. They even tell Fred and George that > they should be more like Percy. His every achievement is met with > lavish praise and support, and rightfully so. Percy, understandably > enough, expects that same reaction when he gets his promotion. But > he doesn't get it. It's probably the first time in his life that he > isn't praised by them for an achievement. > > I can certainly understand that he'd be hurt, and can even > see him holding a grudge for a few weeks over it. But to do what he > did? Del replies : The way I see it (well, one of the ways I see it, the one that favours Percy most :-), Percy was not only *hurt* by his father's words, he was *thrown off-balance*. His neatly organised world (you get praised if you follow the rules, you get promoted if you work hard) had just been turned upside down a few weeks earlier by the discovery of Mr Crouch's madness. An inquiry had been made over Percy's work, honesty and seriousness. He had been under a tremendous stress for days. But finally in the end the Ministry had recognised that Percy had been an exemplary Ministry employee and they even offered him a promotion. So now Percy goes back to the only place that still feels safe, the only place where he still feels like the rules will always be respected. He rightfully expects his parents to praise him for his promotion, as they've *always* done, all his life. But they don't. They, too, suddenly decide to change the rules, to not follow them anymore. Instead of praising him, they tell him he's stupid, they tell him he didn't earn that promotion. Well, Percy is a 19-year-old who's just had the 2 most important institutions in his life (indeed, the *only* two institutions in his life), the Ministry and his family, pull the rug from under his feet. I don't wonder that he lost his balance completely, and that he went looking for support and acceptance from those who had just recognised and rewarded his qualities : the Ministry. It was stupid, sure, but Percy was *lost*. And as time went by, and Percy saw his family ally themselves to people who were doing and saying strange things without any real proof, it's quite natural that he would only entrench himself further with those who seemed more logical and more reasonable. Percy is *not* the reflective kind. He does *not* wonder why people do things. He sees people do things and he automatically jumps to the most logical conclusion. So when he sees DD pretend that LV has returned but he, Percy, can see no sign of LV, he automatically agrees with Fudge who says that DD has lost his marbles. Should Percy think more ? Yes. But he wouldn't be Percy anymore. Del From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Fri Jul 16 11:14:04 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:14:04 -0000 Subject: Still wondering why Snape trusts DD! (was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106530 Mel: Perhaps Snape went over to LV in the > first place at least in part because of the prank, but when LV > announced that he planned to kill an innocent child, perhaps >Snape's own past haunted him a bit, and he couldn't let that >happen. Perhap killing Harry was one step too far over the line. > Aggie: This is an interesting theory but it doesn't ring true with me. Remember in OotP when Sirius is telling Harry about Regulus on the tapestry Uk. P104 Ch 6. . .>'From what I found out after he died, he got in so far, then panicked about what he was being asked to do and tried to back out. Well, you don't just hand in your resignation to Voldemort. It's a lifetime of service or death.' I hadn't picked up on this the first (couple!) of times I'd read it, but on reflection, it seems an appropriate sentence to refer to Snape too. I'm still not convinced he's spying on LV. I have *no* idea what he is doing that's so important though! I believe that Snape *is* the 'one that has left me forever' from the Graveyard scene in GoF. If that is right then LV would have killed him on sight. I doubt he would have hung around for Snape to try and waffle his way back into his good books! Sorry to have poached your thoughts, I realise that you weren't actually discussing this point! From cincimaelder at yahoo.com Fri Jul 16 11:26:05 2004 From: cincimaelder at yahoo.com (cincimaelder) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:26:05 -0000 Subject: Book 6 question: Who will be the mentor for Harry ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106531 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "paul_terzis" wrote: > At last I manage to rest from the shipping war and enter to the > other front, the wizard war. Lets start, shall we? We have HP in > OOTP learning from AD that he is destined to kill or to be killed. I think that Harry's mentor will be DD in the 6th book. He is going to have to learn from the master if he is to defeat VM. If it came to using the Dark Arts I would think Moody would be the best to teach him, he's seen it all. But there may be another solution or way of defeating VM. MAE From tinainfay at msn.com Fri Jul 16 11:21:34 2004 From: tinainfay at msn.com (mrs_sonofgib) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:21:34 -0000 Subject: Book 6 question: Who will be the mentor for Harry ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106532 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "paul_terzis" wrote: > At last I manage to rest from the shipping war and enter to > the other front, the wizard war. Lets start, shall we? We have HP in > OOTP learning from AD that he is destined to kill or to be killed. > My immediate thought was how on earth HP will be trained to kill. > We know that killing curses are part of the dark arts. We also > know that only Aurors from the light side of magic can use killing > curses or at least that was the trend to the first Voldermort War. So who > will train HP? The new DADA teacher? Taking also into > consideration the fact that killing curses require from the caster a rather > evil "approach" (you have to mean it) I still can't define who > will take the responsibility to intruduce HP ,who is emotionally > vulnerable at this moment, to the Dark arts or to a certain > portion of them. Will this happen with the approval of AD, who is > dogmaticaly against dark arts, or in spite of him? Any thoughts my > friends? Tina: Wow Paul, you really know how to get the ball rolling! My thoughts: well, I've never really thought that Harry would just learn a bad enough curse and curse Voldemort to smithereens. I don't think the world needs another powerful wizard with extensive knowledge of the dark arts. The prophecy says that only Harry could kill Voldemort but we are lead to believe that it is his 'something special' not tactical skills (although he has those...). We know about the force that is inside him in such quantities that Voldemort couldn't stand to possess him. This power and being in touch with it needs to be cultivated (as opposed to merely skills) and I can only see Dumbledore doing that for Harry. I certainly see Lupin helping to train/mentor him. I do think Hogwarts is due for another good DADA teacher so he/she could possibly be of assistance also. ~tina From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 16 15:03:34 2004 From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 16:03:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Life Debts to Harry In-Reply-To: <20040716141945.54867.qmail@web25302.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040716150334.21586.qmail@web25308.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106533 udder_pen_dragon wrote: Udderpd I was doing some digging and this thought struck me. We know that Wormtail ows Harry a life debt from PoA Does Ginny from the CoS And do: Snape, Ron and Hermione From the Dementors in PoA. I did not include Sirius because he is dead, although JKR has said some funny things about Sirisus's death. Just somthing to ponder. I am sorry for appearing to answer myself but I wanted to add: If Dudley were the late developing magic user would he immediatly owe Harry a life debt? TTFN Udder Pen Dragon ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From drliss at comcast.net Fri Jul 16 12:22:54 2004 From: drliss at comcast.net (drliss at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:22:54 +0000 Subject: Sirius Luring Snape Message-ID: <071620041222.16018.40F7C89E0004B59200003E9222007347489C9C07049D0B@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 106534 Alla; The problem is that it looks like Sirius did have a conversation with Snape and incredibly enough Snape bought it and went there. There must be something else, which we don't know yet. Here is the quote: "Sirius thought it would be -er-amusing, to tell Snape all he had to do was prod the knot on the tree-trunk with a long stick, and he'd be able to get in after me. Well, of course, Snape tried it - if he'd got as far as this house, he'd have met a fully grown werewolf" -PoA, brit,ed., p261 Snape believed Sirius' words of his own free will? If it is so, then he was an idiot, which even I doubt. Why does remus say -"of course Snape tried it?" Why is he so sure? Lissa: Thanks for the quote- I knew it was there somewhere, but couldn't remember off the top of my head. Like so many things, that quote's vague enough to leave a lot of room for interpretation. Sirius COULD have had a conversation with Snape, or put him under an Imperius curse, but it's hard to tell. The thing about that quote is it's Lupin telling the Trio about Sirius luring Snape. I doubt Lupin was there for the actual conversation/lure/whatever though. Lupin is sensitive enough to the consequences of his lycopanthy that he probably would have whacked Sirius upside the head if he'd heard him trying to lure Snape. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind- just based on the kind of person Lupin is- that he had no idea this prank was happening. That means that Lupin's version may not be accurate. He may not know exactly how Sirius got Snape to do it- and he may not want to know. "Telling him" seems like a quick, generic way of summing it up. Especially when you have a traitor-turned-rat on your hands that you're much more interested in at the moment anyway. Not to mention this can't be Lupin's favorite memory to talk about, anyway. And I'm sure it's not Sirius's, given that he does seem to have grown up a bit. I also think Sirius did not spend a lot of time planning this prank. If he did, he probably would have thought about the implications it would have on Lupin. (I always had the impression that Sirius had a more "romantic" idea of what it was like to be a werewolf, he never really thought about the effects on Lupin himself, or the consequences. At that point, I don't think he'd seen any murderous rages or anything.) It doesn't shock me that Lupin is sure Snape would have done it. It's totally in character for Snape to be a snoop, and obviously he DID do it (it's very easy to be sure with hindsight on your side!). The more I think about it, the more I think the prank might have been a turning point for Sirius. Dumbledore seems to be the king of deftly-crafted guilt trips, with Lupin as his crown prince. Between the two of them (and James, who was obviously ticked), I'm betting money Sirius got some major emotional torture afterwards. But the fact it was so childish and so crude leads me to think he didn't spend hours coming up with ways to lure Snape. Lissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Jul 16 15:07:37 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:07:37 -0000 Subject: Whose point of view ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106535 Adi wrote : > Harry Potter books aren't written from Harry's point of view. They > are written from the author's bird-eye-view, if one may call it that. > Remember the first chapter of Book4 where the point of view shifted > to the action in the Riddle house though Harry wasn't there. Del replies : The first chapter of GoF is an *exception*, just like the first chapter of PS/SS. They are *not* representative of the books. Adi wrote : > Well, my argument is the books aren't written from Harry's point of > view as David Copperfield or any other first person narratives are. > They are written from the point of view of an omniscient author who > most of the time confines herself to decribing Harry's actions but > can deviate from the rote whenever the suspense or narrative demands > it. Del replies : So far, JKR made only the two exceptions mentioned earlier, and that was only because there was simply *no way* she could have done otherwise. The rest of the time, she always finds another way to tell us about what Harry can't see : either someone tells him, or he reads about it, something like that. The narrator is omniscient, but she simply will *not* tell us anything that Harry can't know. She's restricting herself tightly to Harry's head. So yes the narrator is omniscient, but she deliberately gives us only Harry's point of view. Which makes the point of her being omniscient irrelevant. All that remains is that we only know Harry's point of view. Del From rhinobabies at hotmail.com Fri Jul 16 13:48:28 2004 From: rhinobabies at hotmail.com (coderaspberry77) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:48:28 -0000 Subject: On Fawkes and the Forest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106536 Just finished CoS for the third time last night - I admit it, I'm still looking for that one little clue that JKR mentioned was laying around somewhere in it's pages. It was a couple of other minor things, however, that caught my attention. First, and I know this has been discussed before, but it just seems to me that Fawkes is REALLY smart for a bird. I mean, we know Hedwig is smart for an owl, but during the battle with the Basilisk/Riddle, Fawkes knows exactly what Harry needs at exactly the right moment - very complex thought processes for, let's face it, a bird. "Here's a strange talking hat, Harry - you'll be able to find a magical sword in it, since you're likely the heir of Gryffindor." "Here's the diary, Harry - I notice you've procured a basilisk fang, which is poisionous, and if you stab that magical diary which contains the memory of a wizard from 50 years ago, this evil apparition trying to kill you and the girl will be no more." Now, even if DD had given explicit instructions to Fawkes concerning Harry, the hat, and the sword before he left, he could only have guessed about Riddle, the basilisk, the diary, and what not. So Fawkes obviously had to do some analysis on his own. Smart bird. VERY smart. My question - are magical creatures always that intelligent (they don't ALWAYS seem that way - Skrewts :) ), is it just phoenixes that are that bright, or is Fawkes something more? I really liked the "Fawkes could be Gryffindor" theory posted not long ago, though I don't necessarily believe it. On to the other thing: Is it just me, or does the Forbidden Forest seem very conveniently placed? I mean, which was there first - the school of witchcraft and wizardry, or the forbiddeness of the forest? What I mean to say is that you can ask two questions: 1) Did the large concentration of witches/wizards nearby attract all the strange and wonderful (and dangerous) creatures to the nearby forest? Are there crazy things in all "wizarding" forests? If so, how do Muggles not end up wandering into them and getting slain by Werewolves, spiders, irate Centaurs, or whatever? I suppose this may ACTUALLY happen, but it seems unlikely. 2) Who in their right mind builds a school for inquisitive, curious kids near something that dangerous? I guess my question is this: Why is the Forbidden Forest the way it is? Is it unique, or are other forests (like the one in Albania) just as dangerous, but more separated from civilization? Is it just a handy thing for JKR to have around, in case she needs a tense setting? Geoff, who's generally afraid of ominous looking bushes, let alone big creepy forests From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Jul 16 15:56:57 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:56:57 -0000 Subject: Harry and Hagrid (re: Two Crazy Theories) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106537 Iris: > Hagrid is the one who owns the secret to enter the magical world. He > is the one who makes the new students enter the castle. He also owns > the keys of Hogwarts. Better: he keeps them. Just like a baron keeps > a fief for his king. Even if he doesn't seem to realize himself, > even if the others consider him as a servant, a simple gamekeeper, > Hagrid is in a sort of way the lord of Hogwarts, his protector. > One last thing, but it may be consistent if it's true that JKR > writes referring to Alchemy: `Hagrid's first name is `Rubeus'. If we > believe what John Granger wrote in his article `The alchemist them: > Harry Potter and Alchemy' (sorry, I don't remember when it was > published, but there's a message in the HPfGU archives that gives > the link to reach it), `Rubeus' comes from `Rubedo', the Red Work, > the third and most important phase of the Great Work, that leads to > the achievement of the Stone. Jen: After reading your post, Iris, I decided to re-read the Granger article. Here's a link for anyone interested: http://www.touchstonemag.com/docs/issues/16.9docs/16-9pg34.html Last summer when I first read it, I found it interesting and could see the alchemy symbolism present in the series. This time...whew! Once you start thinking about it and looking for it, the evidence is everywhere! I was particulary fascinated by the idea that Book 5 was the Nigredo phase, or dissolution, symbolized by Sirius Black. As he dies, and will most likely be reborn in a new form, so does the Nigredo stage give way to the next stage Albedo, or purification, and finally the last stage you talk about Iris, the Rubedo. Granger particularly postulates that Luna will symbolize the Albedo stage in Book 6, but it seems to me the next stage for Harry will be resolving his relationship with Albus, the master alchemist, in order to reunite with Rubeus in the final stage/book. And then Harry will be back where he started, with the Keeper of the Keys. Reminds me of T.S. Eliot: "We shall not cease from exploration And the end of all our exploring Will be to arrive where we started And know the place for the first time." (Four Quartets) Hans has postulated in post #104372 that Harry will die (pass through the Gate of Saturn/veil), and return to take over Hagrid's job, thus fulfilling the alchemical process. I couldn't think of an alternative that fits better than this, Hans! And we don't really know Hagrid's true "work" as Iris points out, in his position as Keeper of the Keys and Grounds at Hogwarts. Iris: > Another evidence of Hagrid's connection to the Rubedo phase? Well, > he's the one who brings to Stone to Hogwarts. He declares in the > Leaky Cauldron (in PS/SS) that he has come to Diagon Alley because > he is `on Hogwarts business'. He has come to help the Stone and > Harry find their way to Hogwarts. In that single little sentence, > apparently so anodyne, JKR gives us an amazing summarise of what a > true Alchemist is: he's the servant of the Stone, and the protector > of the one who starts his initiatory journey, the Apprentice. And > it's `Hogwarts business', because the school is the alchemical cell > where the Stone and the Apprentice have to meet. Jen: I still like the idea that Harry is the living embodiment of the Philosopher's Stone, and Hagrid would still be a servant to the stone. But like you said Irs, then we wouldn't have an apprentice. All this alchemical wondeirng has me thinking even more that Albus will play a very important role in Book 6, possibly as the half blood prince or prince of half-bloods. Because Albus did not move on to the last or Rubedo stage; Albus instead chose to be purified, but not reunified, and his work is to die to the one who will advance to the last stage. Rubeus Hagrid will be the one left to serve Harry in his final stage. Granger says: "As the heat of the fire is increased, the divine red tincture flushes the white stone with its rich, red colour. . . . The reddening of the white matter is also frequently likened to staining with blood." Any thoughts on that part Iris, Hans or anyone else following this thread? Very curious. Jen Reese From CoyotesChild at charter.net Fri Jul 16 16:37:31 2004 From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:37:31 -0500 Subject: Neville, the Frog Prince Message-ID: <006701c46b53$308f45d0$6601a8c0@DocSavage> No: HPFGUIDX 106538 Iggy here: An interesting idea popped into my head while I was sending a reply to a direct e-mail I received. (And I would like to thank Tina Gibson, one of our new members, for the indirect and unintentional inspiration for this idea. *grin*) Neville has Trevor the Toad as his pet... Toads are related ro frogs... In the tale of the Frog Prince, a frog is seen as being ugly and hopeless, but ends up (at the end of the tale) being MUCH more than he appeared at first. Neville is seen by most as being homely and hopeless, though he's just startign to come into his own power. This is, in no way, saying that Neville is the "Half Blood Prince"... since he's a Pureblood... But could JKR be using Neville (and Trevor as a clue) as a "Frog Prince" analogy? As for my theory for who is the "Half Blood Prince" (and I don't know if it's been stated before, since I missed on a huge chunk of mail on this list...) I personally think it's Hagrid. He's a half blood Wizard / Giant... His mother may have been a Queen of a Giant tribe that may still exist in hiding... (even though she's dead...) This tribe MIGHT have some respect, in it's own way, for a "lineage of nobility." Or, he could manage to collect a giant tribe of "outcasts" with Grawp and Maxime's help, and be made their "prince." (Possibly after successfully leading them in a preliminary conflict before the "final battle.") This would be a great way to bring a group of giants into the story to fight on the side of Hogwarts rather than Voldemort. Just my two centaur's worth. Iggy McSnurd From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Jul 16 17:12:02 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 17:12:02 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106539 About the Hug and the Hand-hold (Elves, don't shoot me please !) : I personally have no problem with 2 potentially romantically-attracted teenagers being shy of holding each other's hand when only one of them is looking for support (Ron never needs to hold anyone's hand when he's afraid, unlike Hermione who does it all the time in OoP) but being comfortable with a full-body hug when both of them need support. And when I saw the hug, my thought was :"Well, if people still doubt R/H after *that !", and my husband (who's not a shipper but knows about the ship wars) even turned to me with a half-smile on his face, and said they couldn't have made it more obvious. But I should have known better :-) Sienna wrote : > A confused H/Hr shipper who'd like to point out that in canon > the 'only' person Hermione turns to in moments of fear and upset for > comfort and security is Harry. Del replies : But if she turned to anyone else, Harry wouldn't know, would he ? And as a consequence, we wouldn't either. Why do you think she keeps talking about Harry to Viktor ? If all she said was "Harry is the best, Harry is so great", I don't think Viktor would need to talk to Harry : he would *know* that Hermione is in love with Harry. We know that Hermione talks to other people : she talked to Hagrid in PoA during her estrangement with the boys. We know because Hagrid felt he had to tell Harry. But Hagrid only mentioned how bad Hermione was feeling and that she needed her friends. If she told him more than that, Hagrid kept it to himself. Del From snow15145 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 16 17:19:55 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 17:19:55 -0000 Subject: Life Debts to Harry In-Reply-To: <20040716141945.54867.qmail@web25302.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106540 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, udder_pen_dragon wrote: > > > Udderpd > > I was doing some digging and this thought struck me. > > We know that Wormtail ows Harry a life debt from PoA > > Does Ginny from the CoS > > And do: Snape, Ron and Hermione From the Dementors in PoA. > > I did not include Sirius because he is dead, although JKR has said some funny things about Sirisus's death. > > Just somthing to ponder. > > TTFN Udder Pen Dragon Snow: I know that some people are not too fond of the idea about Dudley being magical but if it turns out that he is, Dudley definatly owes Harry a life debt by saving his sorry butt from the dementors. Could be very interesting actually. Harry could have a body guard that is bigger than both of Malfoy's put together. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Jul 16 17:22:31 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 17:22:31 -0000 Subject: Book 6 question: Who will be the mentor for Harry ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106541 Paul Terzis wrote: > We have HP in OOTP learning from AD that he is destined to kill or to > be killed. My immediate thought was how on earth HP will be trained to > kill. Del replies : To put it simply, I'd be awfully disappointed if Harry had to learn to kill in order to vanquish LV. I really hope that Harry won't try and defeat the forces of evil with an intrinsically evil curse. I really really hope that DD or whoever will show him another way, or that he will find that other, better way, in himself. That doesn't mean that it wouldn't be useful to master the AK, just to deal with the DEs. But I feel that practicing the Unforgivable Curses would leave such an evil stain on Harry's soul that he would never be able anymore to conjure up whatever good feeling it is that LV doesn't have. So I'm sure that Harry and the rest of the kids will be taught other ways to defend and attack, spells that won't leave traces of evil in them. Del From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Jul 16 17:40:09 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 17:40:09 -0000 Subject: The unusual Gift? SHIP:Hermione's feelings for Ron in OotP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106542 Paul Terzis wrote: > I have to add something else to the conversation. I am not quite > familiar with the superstitions of your countries. But here in > Greece we avoid to give perfume as a present to people we care and > love. It symbolizes seperation and clash between the person who > gives the perfume and the one who receives the perfume. The only way > to counter the bad effect is the person who accepts the perfume, to > give back to the person who gives the perfume a couple of coins. > Just for info!!! Del replies : Yo, Paul, you're getting me horribly worried ! My husband offered me perfume after the birth of our son ! He's not from my culture, so maybe I should check ? Lol ! No, honestly, I'd never heard of anything like that before. I'm not British, I'm French, but the two cultures are similar enough. I really think that Ron was simply trying to offer Hermione a "girly" gift, but couldn't get it right (my husband had it simpler : I have only one favourite perfume :-) I'm wondering where he bought it though. I don't see him asking his mom or his sister for help, or pretty much anyone in his family. And I don't remember him leaving the house to go to Diagon Alley, or anywhere else for that matter. So where did he get it ? Did he order it maybe ? In that case, he couldn't know what it smelled like, so that would explain the funny smell, especially as he probably didn't have much money to invest in it. Another horrible possibility just crossed my mind :-) Did he maybe go around his mom and sister's stuff, and steal a bit of that perfume, and a bit of this one ? Now, *that* would explain the funny smell, lol ! But I don't think even Ron could be as silly as to do something so stupid ! Or maybe he asked Tonks. Knowing Tonks, I wouldn't be surprised if she had *very* special taste in matter of perfumes... Oh, another crazy idea : he asked Bill, but made him swear to keep it secret. But Bill didn't know any better than Ron did, so he figured he would ask help from Fleur. But he wouldn't tell her who the perfume was for, so either Fleur chose the worst one she could find, or she cursed the perfume when Bill wasn't watching, or even worse she replaced it with a potion of her own. It's a safe bet to assume Hermione has never put that perfume on yet, but maybe something will push her to do it someday. I wonder what will happen then ? OK, OK, enough silliness, all right :-) Del From garybec101 at comcast.net Fri Jul 16 17:49:43 2004 From: garybec101 at comcast.net (garybec) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 17:49:43 -0000 Subject: Vanquishing Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106543 David wrote: P 841 Order of the Phoenix American Edition: Dumbledore says: "that the person who has the only chance of conquering Lord Voldemort for good was born at the end of July, nearly sixteen years ago ." My question: How is Harry supposed to conquer Voldemort for good if their wands go priori incantatem on each other as they did in the graveyard? Celestina There was a thread recently about the prophecy at the end of OofP, in which "one has to die at the HAND of the other", which can be interpreted as Harry needing to vanquish Voldemort with his hands, and not his wand, as we know that priori incantatem will be a problem again if they duel once more. I thought it was a brilliant idea, btw. Celestina Becki's outrageous idea; How about this, all of the Order come together with Harry as their leader, encircle LV in the middle and (in evangalistic fashion) LOVE him to death. Harry can be "The ONE" leading the chants, "Can you FEEL it, can you FEEL the LOVE, (all while putting his hand on LV shoulder). And then I see LV melting from all of the LOVE just like the Wicked Witch, The End (OK, OK, I know that was weird but I came up with this vision in my head and it gave me a chuckle and I thought it might to you too) Becki (going back to reality now) From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Fri Jul 16 17:52:52 2004 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 17:52:52 -0000 Subject: Patronus at DADA OWL (was Re: Harry's Future...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106544 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Mae wrote: > And in PoA, didn't Lupin mention to Harry that even > getting the wisps of silver at first was rather impressive. > (I can't check the accuracy of this because I have lent my > book out, but if someone else knows, I may have remembered > incorrectly???) Harry gets the wisps of silver when he tries the charm before the boggart is released, but does not get anything on the first two tries with the boggart. Lupin says he didn't expect him to get it on the first try. Later on, after several practices, Harry is producing an "indistinct, silvery shadow" and Lupin tells him that for a 13-year-old, "even an indistinct Patronus is a huge achievement." At the beginning of the first lesson, Lupin characterizes the charm as "well beyond Ordinary Wizarding Level." One might infer from that characterization that it is beyond OWL, but not beyond NEWT level. -- Matt From jakejensen at hotmail.com Fri Jul 16 18:04:10 2004 From: jakejensen at hotmail.com (jakedjensen) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 18:04:10 -0000 Subject: James gave his life, why no protection from him? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106545 I just got done reading PoA (again) and a thought occurred to me. Lily gave her life to protect HP and that resulted in magical protection for HP. But James did the same thing only moments before (for both Lily and HP). So, even if it is a matter of blood (as DD suggests at the end of OoTP), James act should still have protected HP (unless we are led to believe that James didn't love HP or something...highly unlikely I think). So, (1) Lily must have done something more than just give her life for HP, becaue James did that and nothing happened. or (2) there something about Lily that allows her to do this. Thoughts? Jake From mad_maxime at hotmail.com Fri Jul 16 18:11:20 2004 From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 18:11:20 -0000 Subject: James a Pure Blood? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106546 This may be a stupid question, but where do we learn for certain that James is a pure blood, or is it just assumed? Max From garybec101 at comcast.net Fri Jul 16 18:17:05 2004 From: garybec101 at comcast.net (garybec) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 18:17:05 -0000 Subject: James gave his life, why no protection from him? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106547 jake wrote: > I just got done reading PoA (again) and a thought occurred to me. > Lily gave her life to protect HP and that resulted in magical > protection for HP. But James did the same thing only moments before > (for both Lily and HP). So, even if it is a matter of blood (as DD > suggests at the end of OoTP), James act should still have protected > HP (unless we are led to believe that James didn't love HP or > something...highly unlikely I think). So, > > (1) Lily must have done something more than just give her life for > HP, becaue James did that and nothing happened. > > or > > (2) there something about Lily that allows her to do this. > > Thoughts? > > Jake Becki's thought; Perhaps it goes to the saying that there is no stronger love than a mother has for her child. James was definatly defending his family but perhaps, in his heart, he had additional thoughts, trying to defeat LV, as well as trying to protect his family. Perhaps the very thought in Lily's mind at the exact time she died was ONLY to protect Harry, so at that very minute, she transfered that protection. Becki (a Mom who would die for her children in a heartbeat). From mad_maxime at hotmail.com Fri Jul 16 18:19:58 2004 From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 18:19:58 -0000 Subject: James gave his life, why no protection from him? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106548 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jakedjensen" wrote: > I just got done reading PoA (again) and a thought occurred to me. > Lily gave her life to protect HP and that resulted in magical > protection for HP. But James did the same thing only moments before > (for both Lily and HP). So, even if it is a matter of blood (as DD > suggests at the end of OoTP), James act should still have protected > HP (unless we are led to believe that James didn't love HP or > something...highly unlikely I think). So, > > (1) Lily must have done something more than just give her life for > HP, becaue James did that and nothing happened. > > or > > (2) there something about Lily that allows her to do this. > > Thoughts? > > Jake Max responds: I don't have the links where this was discussed before, but a number of us believe that Lily actively conjured the ancient magic that saved Harry's life, and she probably did so before Voldemort even entered the room. In order for the 'spell' to be activated, Lily knew that she would have to sacrifice herself for Harry. Max From eternal_riddle at yahoo.com Fri Jul 16 15:53:22 2004 From: eternal_riddle at yahoo.com (Anastasia) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:53:22 -0000 Subject: Vanquishing Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106549 Meri wrote: > There's also this point, nitpicky as it is. But the whole reverse > spell effect comes only if two brother wands are forced to duel each > other. I've read the speculation that Harry might use another > wizard's wand to fight, so what if either he or LV lost their own > wands at a critical juncture and then...something happens. Anastasia: Well, this is, of course, a possibility. What I wonder most about is HOW Harry is going to use any wand on Voldemort. As far as we know, there is only one curse to kill somebody - Adava Kedavra. This requires very strong magic, as Moody points out. Bellatrix also tells Harry something about the Cruciatus curse that is well applicable to AK. As far as I understand it, the DESIRE to kill must be OVERWHELMING. Is Harry likely to desire LV's death so badly? Well, now he isn't and IMO if nothing crucial happens in book 6 he won't be in book 7. That leaves us to wonder what will happen to Harry and more probably his friends. Lupin was the first who came to my mind and as I didn't like this thought at all I started thinking in other directions. Harry could become protected by some (ancient?) magic so that LV's attempt to kill him ends badly for LV. I think this is quite probable but then again this leaves the idea of someone dying to protect Harry. But there is also one other possibility. I don't say this is going to happen, I'd just like to hear your opinions about it. Sirius dies not because of AK cast at him but because he FALLS THROUGH THE ARCHWAY. Well, what's if Harry and LV fight in the DOM? Can this be the way LV dies? (Assuming dying is what one does falling through the arch.) Are there (other) objects working like a door to the world of death? Anastasia From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 16 18:23:31 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:23:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Book 6 question: Who will be the mentor for Harry ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040716182331.76899.qmail@web53507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106550 cincimaelder wrote: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "paul_terzis" wrote: > At last I manage to rest from the shipping war and enter to the > other front, the wizard war. Lets start, shall we? We have HP in > OOTP learning from AD that he is destined to kill or to be killed. I think that Harry's mentor will be DD in the 6th book. He is going to have to learn from the master if he is to defeat VM. If it came to using the Dark Arts I would think Moody would be the best to teach him, he's seen it all. But there may be another solution or way of defeating VM. MAE I like the idea that I read recently (sorry... do not remember who wrote it in this sea of e-mails) that mentioned Lupin/Moody pairing and the reasons behind it. Please correct me if I remember wrong, but with the war beginning most students will want to have intense training in DADA. Lupin taking the younger classes and Moody taking the older classes with Harry running basically a hands-on lab or study group. I think DD will take it over in book 7. Snape may end up giving Harry some private lessons again with the dark curses or he may work with the advanced study group in general to train them for an elite student-guard (to guard Harry?) This will place DD, Moody, Lupin, Snape, and the strongest DADA students at Hogwarts continually around Harry at all times. (The professors cannot be with him at all times so have his friends there to watch his back.) moonmyyst --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eternal_riddle at yahoo.com Fri Jul 16 16:19:40 2004 From: eternal_riddle at yahoo.com (Anastasia) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 16:19:40 -0000 Subject: Future Deaths Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106551 Several assumptions have been made who will die in books 6&7. Here comes my attempt to collect them in one thread, as I think this is not unimportant for the future happenings. My ideas about it: 1) I just cannot imagine DD dying out of age or because of some silly illness/mistake or some fight with an evil non-DE (as the last one would have been quite mediocre). That leaves me with the idea that DD will be killed by LV or by some DE taking the blast for Harry. 2) I am afraid I am not sure that Lupin will survive either. His best friends are dead by now. Have you noticed that he was the one most and frequent to be found with Sirius? It's not astonishing but it shows he doesn't have any family (does he?). Additionally, Pettrigrew's hand is out of SILVER which kills werwolves. Coincidence? I think Lupin would be more than ready to die for Harry if necessary. The DEs would like him dead anyways because he is only half-human in their eyes. IMO Lupin does not have really much motivation to stay alife other than fighting against LV and the DEs or protecting Harry. The way to change this would be falling in love with someone. (Tonks?) Actually, it surprises me that he hasn't become depressive yet and even always comforts others. Well, that makes him absolute outstanding in my eyes. 3) Pettigrew seems a good candidate to finally pay his life debt to Harry. He couldn't do that other than dying. (Especially if he has killed Lupin by this time, see point 2.) Someway I have the thought that the marauders will be reunited in the end, even if death is the only way to do it. Anastasia From marshbur at cs.unc.edu Fri Jul 16 16:20:49 2004 From: marshbur at cs.unc.edu (marshbur at cs.unc.edu) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 16:20:49 -0000 Subject: Book 6 question: Who will be the mentor for Harry ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106552 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "paul_terzis" wrote: > At last I manage to rest from the shipping war and enter to the > other front, the wizard war. Lets start, shall we? We have HP in > OOTP learning from AD that he is destined to kill or to be killed. > My immediate thought was how on earth HP will be trained to kill. > We know that killing curses are part of the dark arts. We also know > that only Aurors from the light side of magic can use killing curses > or at least that was the trend to the first Voldermort War. So who > will train HP? The new DADA teacher? Taking also into consideration > the fact that killing curses require from the caster a rather > evil "approach" (you have to mean it) I still can't define who will > take the responsibility to intruduce HP ,who is emotionally > vulnerable at this moment, to the Dark arts or to a certain portion > of them. Will this happen with the approval of AD, who is > dogmaticaly against dark arts, or in spite of him? Any thoughts my > friends? First, a clarifying point: are we told specifically that the Aurors can perform the killing curse, or merely that they are authorized to, in effect, use extreme force when apprehending Death Eaters, force sufficient to cause death? I don't have the books here with me, unfortunately, or I'd look it up. (Gee, I guess I need to start keeping a copy of the books here at work with me. That wouldn't look suspicious.) Anyway, allow me to respectfully disagree with the premise that Harry will be using the dark arts to defeat VM. First, with a year or two of study of the dark arts, Harry cannot hope to match VM's depth of knowledge and skill. Other posters have recently contemplated VM's CV or resume'. These posters have noted a large gap between when Tom Riddle was last seen at Hogwart's and when VM began to make a terrifying appearance to the WW, a gap of 20 years or more. It seems most reasonable to think that VM spent much of this time gathering his power by learning new dark spells and rituals. I assert that it cannot be expected or even hoped that Harry will beat VM in a contest of dark arts. I believe DD will realize this and so will not set Harry up for a contest of dark arts. Second, I imagine the dark arts are seductive and corrupting. Much like "the Dark Side" in the Star Wars series and the One Ring in The Lord of the Rings, the ways of evil corrupt those who use them. Furthermore, the heros in those stories must not give into the temptation to use the admittedly powerful evil means to their otherwise worthy end. To do so is to turn the hero himself into that which he tries to defeat. I believe DD will realize this and so will not have Harry taught the dark arts. Furthermore, if nothing else, the books are moral, and I do not believe we would be presented the idea that the ends justify the mean. (aside #1: It will be interesting to see if Harry or someone else suggests using dark and unforgiveable curses, and is rebuked by DD.) (aside #2: While Rowling is surely writing her own story, it would be incongruous, at best, to have Harry use evil to defeat evil and not be subsumed by that very evil.) (aside #3: the urge to use the dark arts may be something Harry has to actively fight. We've already see him try to use an unforgiveable curse in OotP.) Finally, I believe that DD himself will take up Harry's tutelage in the 6th and/or 7th books. I believe this will partially be out of contrition for ignoring Harry in book 5. Also, I believe DD will take a more active role because it must be Harry, in the end, who defeats VM, and preparing Harry for that struggle is arguably the most important thing to be done in all the WW. So, having having argued against the "dark arts vanquish Voldemort" theory, I am nearly at a loss to speculate how Harry will defeat VM. That will be the true delight of the remaining books, to see how this can happen while not ruining Harry in the process. I'm inclined to say that some form of "love" will feature prominently in VM's defeat this time, as it did when VM was temporarily vanquished before. I don't know that Harry will cause the outright death of VM in this way or not, just as I don't know that defeating VM equates with killing VM. I would not be surprised if a good chunck of the 6th and 7th books deals with how Harry can defeat VM without resorting to killing. cheers, -David From dolis5657 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 16 17:48:54 2004 From: dolis5657 at yahoo.com (dcgmck) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 17:48:54 -0000 Subject: The Virtues of Hufflepuff House and Cedric Diggory (Was: Snape and . . .cour In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106553 Hickengruendler and HunterGreen have been discussing Hufflepuff House in ways what seem to be reductive terms, though I admit I may simply be misunderstanding them. If anything Hufflepuff House, described by the Sorting Hat as a sort of catch-all for the otherwise uncategorizable, seems to reflect an egalitarian Everyman, if you will. As such, it should and does seem to reflect a noticeable diversity as its dominant trait, including the beautiful (Cedric), the mundane (Ernie and Justin), the seemingly arrogant insecure (Zacharias), and the reliable (Susan Bones). If glory comes slowly and seldom to their house, it seems more a case of the Tortoise and the Hare, a natural consequence of their innate diversity. True, their Head of House, Professor Sprout teaches Herbology, but I would hardly call the subject less taxing than Transfiguration, Charms, or Potions. Whoever says so clearly slept through botany, a subject that calls for not only academic acumen but at least as much continual alertness as Care of Magical Creatures (remember those Blast-Ended Skrewts?). Finally, we are reminded that the Hufflepuff mascot is the badger. According to the on-line Encyclopedia Britannica site, there are 6 species of badgers, differentiated according to "size, habitat, and coloration," supporting my theory that they are intended to reflect diversty. These creatures share several physical traits in common, however, including the following: "all possess anal scent glands, powerful jaws, and large, heavy claws on their forefeet," suggesting that despite their seemingly placid appearance, they can prove to be dangerous foes when roused in defense of that which matters to them. Thus I agree with Hickengruendler's assertion that the Hufflepuffs are likely to prove significant allies in WWII (the second wizarding war). I disagree, however, that Helga Hufflepuff's open school policy is intended to reflect poorly on the other founders or houses. We see similar traits in all the other houses, including Slytherin, if we include Snape as a representative of said house. After all, his willingness to defy Voldemort seems a sign of courage and his obedience to Dumbledore despite his evident loathing of all associated with the original Marauders, (especially the current generation of Harry and the Weasley twins,) seems a fair example of loyalty. >From Gryffindor we see Hermione and before her Lily Potter as examples of egalitarian intellectuals who are loyal even unto death. >From Ravenclaw we see Professor Flitwick, who is clearly a sweetheart as a teacher, yet who is also characterized as a champion dueler in his day, reflecting his kindness of heart and his courage. His loyalty we see in his quiet support of Dumbledore and McGonnagall in the face of Umbridge's outrageous edicts. Likewise Luna Lovegood reflects a courage not necessarily immediately recognizable and loyalty, both to herself and family and to Harry and his friends. Through these these enumerations I intend only to refute the accusation that these other houses are racist or otherwise biased. The founders, I think, are remembered for valuing and encouraging particular traits, but that does not mean that they necessarily rejected others out of hand. Neville, for example, is clearly a work in progress. To be fair, we all are, regardless of age or origins. From reyakittens at yahoo.com Fri Jul 16 17:52:41 2004 From: reyakittens at yahoo.com (tamuril elensar) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 17:52:41 -0000 Subject: Sirius Luring Snape In-Reply-To: <071620041222.16018.40F7C89E0004B59200003E9222007347489C9C07049D0B@comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106554 Lissa: Like so many things, that quote's vague enough to leave a lot of room for interpretation. Sirius COULD have had a conversation with Snape, or put him under an Imperius curse, but it's hard to tell. The thing about that quote is it's Lupin telling the Trio about Sirius luring Snape. I doubt Lupin was there for the actual conversation/lure/whatever though. Lupin is sensitive enough to the consequences of his lycopanthy that he probably would have whacked Sirius upside the head if he'd heard him trying to lure Snape. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind- just based on the kind of person Lupin is- that he had no idea this prank was happening. R->Hey, out of lurking.. wanted to say a couple of things I really think this had more to do with Sirius being a boy. And not thinking much about what he was doing. Not taking anything seriously. I don't think he put a jinx on Snape to get him to do this. I think he thought Snape needed to mind his own business but hey if he wanted to know what they were doing so badly let him see. I'm not saying he wasn't a jerk, but you can watch tons of Oprah shows where people confront the bullies who made fun of them and how they changed when they grew up. I really just think Sirius got a kick out of picking on Snape and wasn't thinking anything would happen. Yeah it shows he has no common sense but I don't think it was anything past him being a foolish young boy. Lupin would have known how much danger snape would be in and no he would not have wanted Snape to come forth. A) He would have hurt Snape and B) He would be in deep deep trouble. Also, Lupin is more sensitive after dealing with people's reactions to himself I also think Sirius did not spend a lot of time planning this prank. If he did, he probably would have thought about the implications it would have on Lupin. (I always had the impression that Sirius had a more "romantic" idea of what it was like to be a werewolf, he never really thought about the effects on Lupin himself, or the consequences. At that point, I don't think he'd seen any murderous rages or anything.) R->Well to be fair, it seemed that once the boys could be together they all had a more romantic notion. I don't have the book in front of me (POA), but there is one part where Lupin says he never wanted to tell DD about Sirius being an Anigmus because it would show that he betrayed DD's trust and even though he felt guilty every time they came back he was excited to plan next month's adventure. So that said, he enjoyed their adventures. And Sirius mentioning in OOTP that he wished it was a full moon isn't really that insensitive of a comment since all the boys loved a full moon. It doesn't shock me that Lupin is sure Snape would have done it. It's totally in character for Snape to be a snoop, and obviously he DID do it (it's very easy to be sure with hindsight on your side!). R->Yeah remember Snape was trying to get them expelled. Although he was dumb for thinking Sirius would make it easy, he probly wasn't thinking. Wonder how all this hatred started anyway. The more I think about it, the more I think the prank might have been a turning point for Sirius. Dumbledore seems to be the king of deftly-crafted guilt trips, with Lupin as his crown prince. Between the two of them (and James, who was obviously ticked), I'm betting money Sirius got some major emotional torture afterwards. But the fact it was so childish and so crude leads me to think he didn't spend hours coming up with ways to lure Snape. R->I agree.. I really think this was stupid prank pulled by a silly boy. Robyn From dolis5657 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 16 18:14:19 2004 From: dolis5657 at yahoo.com (dcgmck) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 18:14:19 -0000 Subject: Book 6 question: Who will be the mentor for Harry ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106555 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "paul_terzis" wrote: < We have HP in OOTP learning from AD that he is destined to kill or to be killed. I guess whether or not Harry will actually have to take a life depends on how one interprets the prophecy. He may be doomed to eternal struggle, an endless existence of nullification. That would be an even greater sacrifice than the one his mother made. (I'm thinking along the lines of Ben Bova's "Orion" series.) > My immediate thought was how on earth HP will be trained to kill. > Taking also into consideration the fact that killing curses require from the caster a rather evil "approach" (you have to mean it) > Cheers, > Paul Well, Harry has already tried his first unforgivable curse and he's clearly building up an adequate "head of steam" as far as the necessary intent is concerned, if the summer between books 4 and 5 are any indication. If, in fact, Harry earns enough O.W.L.s to be accepted into the pre- Auror track and enough N.E.W.T.s for post-graduate Auror training, surely there is already a system in place for such preparation. That said, Harry and his friends have never waited for any curriculum to provide them with the tools for which they have felt an immediate need. Crouch, Jr. has already provided them with the knowledge; now the gang just needs the practice. Still, JKR and Dumbledore say that living and maturing are about making choices. Since neither has a strong belief in divination per se, I wouldn't be surprised to see Harry attempt to be the "master" of his own fate rather than an unwitting and unwilling pawn of the cold and distant stars that Firenze and his ilk study so diligently yet fruitlessly. "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches. . . . Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies . . . and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not . . . and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives. . . . The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies. . . ." We have not been offered much incentive to trust anything Sybil Trelawney affirms, even when she's in a trance, though the prophecy Harry heard proved accurate enough. There's no reason to think that she'd doing a good job of controlling her pronoun use here either. There are just too many "he"'s wandering around this prophecy for me to feel comfortable with any assumptions about it at this point in time. Besides, since when does having power mean that it gets used as intended? From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 16 18:32:24 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 18:32:24 -0000 Subject: Cousins by marriage ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106556 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > > > OotP, Chapter 6, "The Most Noble And Ancient House Of Black": > > > > "'Molly and I are cousins by marriage and Arthur's something like > > my second cousin once removed. But there's no point looking for > > them on here - if ever a family was a bunch of blood traitors it's > > the Weasleys.'" > Eris wrote : > > So Molly was the one who married into the Weasleys, obviously, > > since she's a Prewett. And Arthur was the blood relative > > (although I'm not too clear on how this 'once removed' business > > works). > Del replies : > I disagree. The way Sirius said it, just after explaining that all > the pureblood families are inter-related and that this means that > the choice of partner is very limited if your kids are to be > pure-bloods too, I take it to mean that *both* Molly and Arthur are > bloodrelatives to Sirius. > > Thanks for the explanation about second cousins though !! > > Del Asian_lovr2: I don't think I can add new insight, but hopefully I can lend some perspective. Everybody's Black- The statement that ALL pure-blood families are inter-related is a broad generalization, and while techincally true, does not necessarily have to have any significants. When we discussed geneology in the distant past someone on this group (I think it was here) pointed out that they were (something like) 4,000 in line for the Throne of England. (Would that help you get a table in a fancy restaurant?) In the same sense that someone could say they are 1/4 French, this person could say they are 1/4000-th royal. That may not be accurate from a geneological/mathimatical perspective, but it serves my illustration. Now, if you were 1/4 French, you could rightfully claim some French heritage, but if you are 1/4000th French, your claim to heritage is a stretch. If you are 3999/4000th German and 1/4000th French, forget it, you are German. It's possible that many many many generations back there was some intersection of the Black and (Molly) Prewett family trees, that gave Molly some trace of Black blood. But once it becomes sufficiently distant, it becomes insignificant. And the more recent connection by marriage certainly overrides some ancient and distant blood connection. So, it's not a question of which is true (blood or marraige), both can be true, it's a question of which is significant. Next, it does seem unclear whether Molly is related to the Blacks 'by marriage' because of her marriage to Arthur, or if the connection is in some other part of her family and unrelated to Arthur. I read it as a connection separate from her marriage to Arthur. Another thought, if all pure-blood families are inter-related, and we assume that Prewett's are a pure-blood family, that means Molly and Arthur were related /before/ they got married. But again, the question is, is it a significant relationship. And again, the answer is that once the blood connection becomes sufficiently THIN, it becomes insignificant. Just a few thoughts. Steve/asian_lovr2 From RowanGF at aol.com Fri Jul 16 18:15:29 2004 From: RowanGF at aol.com (Kirsten) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 18:15:29 -0000 Subject: Phineas Nigellus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106557 In response to: >If Nigelus had only one child, and that child was his daughter, and > she married into the Black family, then for future generations, the > Black family line would be the only remaining existance of his own > blood line. Therefore, he would certainly have some on-going > allegiance to the bloodline. *SNIP* > Steve/asian_lovr2 An equally plausible (and perhaps parsimonious) answer could be that the family name was originally the Latin 'Nigellus' and was Anglicized somewhere along the way to be 'Black', which is essentially a translation. That would lend credibility to the extreme longevity of the line. That was my assumption when I read it, but then I'm an American and used to people's family names being changed because of distortion, misspellings, and immigration services' racism. Maybe there was a time of great nationalism in the wizarding world. -RowanGF From lmenard at shentel.net Fri Jul 16 18:42:40 2004 From: lmenard at shentel.net (Red Headed Tabby) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:42:40 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: James gave his life, why no protection from him? References: Message-ID: <002001c46b64$ae6eb8d0$0400a8c0@TheMaster> No: HPFGUIDX 106558 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jakedjensen" wrote: > I just got done reading PoA (again) and a thought occurred to me. > Lily gave her life to protect HP and that resulted in magical > protection for HP. But James did the same thing only moments before > (for both Lily and HP). So, even if it is a matter of blood (as DD > suggests at the end of OoTP), James act should still have protected > HP (unless we are led to believe that James didn't love HP or > something...highly unlikely I think). So, > > (1) Lily must have done something more than just give her life for > HP, becaue James did that and nothing happened. > > or > > (2) there something about Lily that allows her to do this. > > Thoughts? > > Jake Laura here- Voldemort say that Lily 'needn't have died' for Harry in chap 17 of SS. I really think that while James did die protecting his family that Lily made the biggest *personal* sacrifice when she was given the opportunity to move. James died in battle, Lily died FOR love. When she was given the choice to live or die and she picked death for her son the ancient magic was cast... without any needed incantations and such. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From CoyotesChild at charter.net Fri Jul 16 19:06:01 2004 From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:06:01 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: James gave his life, why no protection from him? References: Message-ID: <002201c46b67$efdae480$6601a8c0@DocSavage> No: HPFGUIDX 106559 > Becki's thought; > > Perhaps it goes to the saying that there is no stronger love than a > mother has for her child. Iggy here: I dunno... I've always had a problem with that statement... especially since becoming a father. Love a father shows may come across differently than that a mother shows, but I don't feel that it's any less than a mothers by so much as a single mote. Society teaches us that fathers are supposed to show love in the "paternal" form, and mothers show it in the "maernal" form. The paternal form of love is often expressed in providing for, caring for, and protecting. The maternal form is often depicted as nurturing, feeding, and soothing. While they may take separate paths, I do not see how a mother's love is greater than a father's. (And yes, some may argue that it is because a baby resides within its mother's body for nine months... but that is a matter of biology, and not emotion. There are many instances in the animal kingdom where a baby is abandoned to fend on its own by the mother without a second thought... and other instances where the father is the one that cares for the eggs and the infants... penguins and seahorses come most readily to mind there.) > > James was definatly defending his family but perhaps, in his heart, > he had additional thoughts, trying to defeat LV, as well as trying > to protect his family. Perhaps the very thought in Lily's mind at > the exact time she died was ONLY to protect Harry, so at that very > minute, she transfered that protection. > > Becki (a Mom who would die for her children in a heartbeat). > Iggy here: I dunno... If I was in James's shoes in the same situation, the only thought on my mind would be in protecting my family, my child in particular... but yes, beating Voldemort would be an aspect, but that's the how, not the what. Although, if we get down to it, BOTH could have given Harry his protection. Lilly sacrificed herself with the thought of protecting Harry with her life and wanting him to live a long and safe life. James sacrificed himself to protect his son with the knowledge that he'd have to defeat Voldemort to do it. Lilly's sacrifice was powerful, and longer lasting... Not only aiding him in resisting the AK, but in helping to protect him until he could help to protect himself. (Which runs right through up until the end of GoF... since from the end of GoF, and the beginning of OOtP, Harry has learned a LOT about how to protect and defend himself, even against LV.) Lilly died wanting to protect Harry and wanting him to live a long life. James's sacrrifice was just as powerful, but much more immediate and intense because it was a short lived one. His sacrifice was the other half of helping Harry resist the AK, but the entire power that allowed the AK to rebound back on LV. James died wanting to protect Harry, and defeat LV to do so. To me, not only is this viable, (and recognizing of a father's love for his child as well...) but it would also explain why Harry has only been told about his mother's protection.... because it's the only one that has come into play since that first, fateful night. His father's protection has faded LONG before he comes under danger from LV again. Just my two centaur's worth. Iggy McSnurd From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Fri Jul 16 19:20:21 2004 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 19:20:21 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Virtues of Hufflepuff House and Cedric Diggory (Was: Snape and . . .cour Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106561 "dcgmck" said: >True, their Head of House, Professor Sprout teaches Herbology, but I >would hardly call the subject less taxing than Transfiguration, >Charms, or Potions. Whoever says so clearly slept through botany, a >subject that calls for not only academic acumen but at least as much >continual alertness as Care of Magical Creatures (remember those >Blast-Ended Skrewts?). Yes, and the plants in the wizarding world can be as dangerous as the animals. The mandrakes can knock you unconscious (and that's just the babies), that thing they fell into at the bottom of the tunnel in PS/SS could have strangled them, and let's not forget the plant that killed Bode in the hospital. >Finally, we are reminded that the Hufflepuff mascot is the badger. An animal about which C. S. Lewis, in one of the Narnia books (I think it was *Prince Caspian*) has a talking badger say, "I'm a Badger, and we hold on." And am I the only one who, when hearing the name "Hufflepuff," is reminded of The Little Engine That Could, which we all read in school as an example of persistence and determination as traits for success? >Through these these enumerations I intend only to refute the >accusation that these other houses are racist or otherwise biased. >The founders, I think, are remembered for valuing and encouraging >particular traits, but that does not mean that they necessarily >rejected others out of hand. Certainly. After all, if they'd all been bigots, Salazar Slytherin's theories would have been either argued over ("Muggle-borns are inferior! No, people who aren't smart are inferior! No, it's people who aren't brave who we don't want!) or not even noticed as an aberration. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Fri Jul 16 11:00:44 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:00:44 -0000 Subject: Dragons and Diary In-Reply-To: <20040716045557.24308.qmail@webmail8.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106562 > Amey: > But Tom tells us why he took Ginny in the Chamber. It was a plan to >lure Harry there. > >SNIP> Aggie: That's true, but TR didn't know about Harry until Ginny told him. I wondered how it would have played out if Harry hadn't been there. And *why* LM chose that time to plant the diary. I guess I'll never be satisfied on this one!!!! From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Fri Jul 16 13:15:55 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:15:55 -0000 Subject: Vanquishing Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106563 > David: > > >snip> > > > My question: How is Harry supposed to conquer Voldemort for >good if their wands go priori incantatem on each other as they did in > the graveyard? Meri: > There's also this point, nitpicky as it is. But the whole reverse > spell effect comes only if two brother wands are forced to duel >each other. I've read the speculation that Harry might use another > wizard's wand to fight, so what if either he or LV lost their own > wands at a critical juncture and then...something happens. Now Aggie: To emphasise your point Meri, 'if the two wands are forced to *duel*'. It only occured to me when I read your post. If Harry points his wand at LV and says 'Avada Kedavra' and LV doesn't react in time, then I would guess LV would 'die'. Obviously this works vice versa! It's only if the two wizards curse each other at the same time that 'Priori incantatem' occurs. If this wasn't the case then LV wouldn't have been able to 'Crucio' Harry at the graveyard. That's my take on it anyway! On a side line, does anyone else think that 'Avada Kedavra' is JKR's 'version' of Abracadabra? It's sounds remarkably like it to me and I find that quite an eerie thought!!! From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Jul 16 19:36:47 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 19:36:47 -0000 Subject: Still wondering why Snape trusts DD! (was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: <20040715232504.84141.qmail@web13709.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106564 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Dolies wrote: >snip> > Snape's current > trust do not "weight" in a balance in relation to how DD treat > marauders in the past (Why does everything has be Marauders' related?) > His trusting of DD could be purely base on DD's willingness to believe > *his STORY". It is the fact DD believes HIM that's why Snape trust DD > in return, regardless of how DD handled student affairs in the past, > because this is the only man that give his trust to Snape, and Snape > honor that. Hope that clear your confusion. > > D. All very well, but what would happen if Snape found out that DD had let him down *again*? Is Snape aware that DD was instrumental in Sirius escaping at the end of PoA? I don't think he is. DD gave him a clue, of course - "Unless you are suggesting Harry and Hermione are able to be in two places at once." So Snape probably knows about the Timeturner, but I doubt he realised it was used at DD's suggestion. IMO DD is skating on very thin ice with Snape. Just before the duo go back, Snape makes a very pointed remark - "Sirius Black showed he was capable of murder at the age of sixteen," he breathed. "You haven't forgotten that, Headmaster? You haven't forgotten that he once tried to kill me?" DD hasn't forgotten it; he discounts it. He puts Snape lower in his priorities than a (three times) would be murderer - The Shrieking Shack I (Snape), the confrontation after Godric's Hollow (Peter), Shrieking Shack II (Peter again). Not clever. What happens when Snape finds out? A split in the ranks? Kneasy From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Fri Jul 16 19:37:21 2004 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 19:37:21 -0000 Subject: Harry and Hagrid (re: Two Crazy Theories) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106565 Jen wrote at the end of her message: "Any thoughts on that part Iris, Hans or anyone else following this thread?" Hi, Jen! I'm not going to miss the opportunity to follow an `alchemical thread'! But the reply I'm going to give to your very interesting post won't follow its initial order. Hope it doesn't matter too much. Let's start! You write: " then Harry will be back where he started, with the Keeper of the Keys. Reminds me of T.S. Eliot: "We shall not cease from exploration And the end of all our exploring Will be to arrive where we started And know the place for the first time." (Four Quartets) Beautiful! That's exactly how I hope the story will end, and not only regarding Harry. We readers will arrive where we started. Then we will have to re-read all the series again, and it will be as if it were completely new. I like that fascinating possibility, and hope you are right! At the end of your post, you say: "All this alchemical wondering has me thinking even more that Albus will play a very important role in Book 6, possibly as the half blood prince or prince of half-bloods." Do you think of Albus Dumbledore? He would be a wonderful half blood prince. And he is necessarily going to play an important part in the sixth book, simply because Harry might feel resentful towards him and think he's responsible for the loss of Sirius. Maybe Dumbledore will be the next important character to die, I don't know. Or maybe he will turn out to be less powerful than he seems to be. Maybe not less powerful than Voldemort, but less powerful than Harry. It would be logical: Harry as at least one power Dumbledore doesn't have: the power to vanquish the Dark Lord. A few paragraphs before, you wrote: "I was particulary fascinated by the idea that Book 5 was the Nigredo phase, or dissolution, symbolized by Sirius Black. As he dies, and will most likely be reborn in a new form, so does the Nigredo stage give way to the next stage Albedo, or purification, and finally the last stage you talk about Iris, the Rubedo." I agree with dear Sirius being the symbol of the Nigredo phase in OotP. But he is not the one who dies and will be reborn in a new form, IMO. He dies, yes, but he is not playing the part of the initiated. This is Harry's part. Harry is the chosen one. He `dies' in OotP, because he is no longer the little boy we used to know, and because he looses most of his usual attributes (being a Quidditch star player, being `better' than Ron, being popular, being Dumbledore's pet, etc ). At the end of the book, the Harry we knew, the cute Boy Who Lived, is `dead'. Harry is reborn; he is still the same, but at the same time he is different. We face by now the disturbing Prophecy Boy, the Marked Man. But that's actually what he was since the beginning, and JKR told us since the first book. Didn't she write, just before sorting Harry, that Mac Gonagall had come to `lead him to his DOOM'? It was there, clearly explained, but we didn't understand, or we didn't dare imagine what it could mean. Then OotP came and we had to understand, if it wasn't already done. Reading that book was a Nigredo phase for us too, it was uneasy and disturbing sometimes. Now,in a sort of way, we are initiated too. It's not just an entertaining and gripping book we are holding by now in our hands. It's also a metaphysical work, that requires more than our liking for reading. Of course, it's only *my* point of view, Amicalement, Iris From ReturnOfTheMutt at aol.com Fri Jul 16 05:30:41 2004 From: ReturnOfTheMutt at aol.com (ReturnOfTheMutt at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 01:30:41 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Cousins by marriage ? Message-ID: <1a5.25bbf4e4.2e28c201@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106566 In a message dated 7/15/2004 11:40:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time, floopy at shaw.ca writes: > So Molly was the one who married into the Weasleys, obviously, since > she's a Prewett. And Arthur was the blood relative (although I'm not > too clear on how this 'once removed' business works). Second cousins > are basically the children of your parents' cousins - for example, if > Sirius were to have a child, that child would be Tonks' second cousin > since Tonks is the child of Andromeda, who is Sirius' cousin. Your cousin once removed is your cousin's child, or your parents cousin. My mom's brother's son's daughter is my cousin once removed. I'm her cousin once removed (actually we're adoptive step step cousin's once removed, but those are details. It might be differnt in differnt places though. Even though we're not second cousins, we refer to each other as second cousins rather than cousins once removed. -Mutt http://www.tradinglinks.com/cgi-bin/classified/classified.cgi?category=antique s27&item=1089332354#OTHER [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From griffin782002 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 16 16:11:16 2004 From: griffin782002 at yahoo.com (sp. sot.) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:11:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Life Debts to Harry In-Reply-To: <20040716150334.21586.qmail@web25308.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040716161116.7202.qmail@web90003.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106568 udder_pen_dragon wrote: I was doing some digging and this thought struck me. We know that Wormtail ows Harry a life debt from PoA Does Ginny from the CoS And do: Snape, Ron and Hermione From the Dementors in PoA. I did not include Sirius because he is dead, although JKR has said some funny things about Sirisus's death. Just somthing to ponder. I am sorry for appearing to answer myself but I wanted to add: If Dudley were the late developing magic user would he immediatly owe Harry a life debt? TTFN Udder Pen Dragon Griffin782002 now: Actually with the term Life Debt, I was thinking about people who are not close to Harry. Ron, Hermione and Ginny are quite close to each other and help at any time.I personally think that the people that are really debted to Harry are Snape, Peter and, if he is going to develop magical powers, Dudley. Griffin782002 From patientx3 at aol.com Fri Jul 16 19:51:13 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 19:51:13 -0000 Subject: The prank and 'turning points' (was Re: Sirius Luring Snape) In-Reply-To: <071620041222.16018.40F7C89E0004B59200003E9222007347489C9C07049D0B@comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106569 Lissa wrote: >> The more I think about it, the more I think the prank might have been a turning point for Sirius. Dumbledore seems to be the king of deftly-crafted guilt trips, with Lupin as his crown prince. Between the two of them (and James, who was obviously ticked), I'm betting money Sirius got some major emotional torture afterwards. But the fact it was so childish and so crude leads me to think he didn't spend hours coming up with ways to lure Snape. << HunterGreen: Except that Sirius *still* doesn't feel remorseful for his actions. In PoA he sneers about it, commenting that it 'served Snape right'. Now I don't think that he actually wanted to *kill* Snape, I just think that he doesn't get how serious what he did was. However, I do think the prank might have been a turning point for James. we know from Sirius and Lupin that at some point James grew up a little, and that's why Lily started going out with him. What if the prank happened toward the end of his sixth year? It could have been the impetus for him to realize how stupid he was being, and how easily things could go too far. He was still hexing Snape after that, but I doubt he ever purposefully turned it into a big spectacle like he did in the pensieve. It may very well have been what made James grow up, too bad it didn't have the same effect on Sirius... From rhinobabies at hotmail.com Fri Jul 16 18:51:58 2004 From: rhinobabies at hotmail.com (coderaspberry77) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 18:51:58 -0000 Subject: James gave his life, why no protection from him? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106570 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mad_maxime" wrote: > > (1) Lily must have done something more than just give her life for > > HP, becaue James did that and nothing happened. > > > > or > > > > (2) there something about Lily that allows her to do this. > > > > Thoughts? > > > > Jake > > Max responds: > > I don't have the links where this was discussed before, but a number > of us believe that Lily actively conjured the ancient magic that saved > Harry's life, and she probably did so before Voldemort even entered > the room. In order for the 'spell' to be activated, Lily knew that she > would have to sacrifice herself for Harry. This is possible, but then again, at this point aren't James and Lily 5 years removed from Hogwart's, at the most? Would she have learned this type of ancient magic in her studies or training for whatever she did? I am hoping we find out what the Potters did, but I have an inkling that either there's something very special about Lily, or else Becki was right in her earlier response to this post: That it was simply undiluted, unadulterated, and purely unconditional love that protected Harry. It looks like James died fighting LV (i.e. he had no choice in his sacrifice), but he gave Lily the option of stepping aside, and she didn't. I believe, especially given JKR's writing, that it was the sacrifice that provided the protection - even though James may have fought LV valiantly, there's a difference between dying in battle and laying down your life without struggle. From aleesahn at earthlink.net Fri Jul 16 18:24:25 2004 From: aleesahn at earthlink.net (aleesahn) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 18:24:25 -0000 Subject: Whose point of view ? (A Challenge!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106571 Janelle wrote: >The Harry Potter books are writen in what's called a limited >omniscient point of view. This means that although it's not >entirely Harry's point of view (first person), the story follows >him. He is the only character who's head the narrator can get >into, we never hear the thoughts of any other character, we never >hear conversations between characters that Harry himself isn't >hearing with the exception of the first chapter of SS. > This gives the reader a very limited perspective, if we had access >to the other characters' thoughts or conversations a lot of the >questions that we debate here would be answered for us... Aleesahn writes: Janelle gives a really nice explanation of the limited omniscient POV. I would like to add to that explanation. The HP series POV is indeed "limited"- in fact I sometimes feel as though the narrator is an invisible balloon, tethered to Harry and trailing him around at a discreet distance. The balloon remains faithfully tethered to Harry, and with the exception of the few scenes cited by Janelle, cannot range any farther afield. There is another aspect of this POV, however, that further contributes to the mood and structure of the HP narrative. By selecting the limited omniscient POV over the first person POV, JK Rowling has excused herself from the necessity of spilling HP's inner life to us. A first person POV is obligated to narrate the action from their own _emotional_ perspective. Like a friend telling you about events at work, they must explain the action as it impacts them, their feelings and opinions. If the HP series were narrated to us by Harry himself, we would understand a great deal more about his emotional development and be privy to his opinion on other characters in greater detail. By choosing the limited omniscient POV, JK Rowling reserves the right to dip into Harry's brain to share his feelings or opinions when it suits the action, or when she wants to draw out one of his character traits. And yet, she can close the curtain whenever she likes as well! It is both of these aspects of the limited omniscient POV that contribute to the mysterious and intriguing nature of the HP series that we love so well. SO, here is my challenge: Janelle listed a few of the juicy mysteries we might have solved if only our narrator would take longer walks on its tether to do some eavesdropping on our behalf: Janelle writes: <...we would possibly know all about dumbledore's plans for harry, My challenge is this: Taking into consideration both aspects of the limited omniscient narrator (limited range and selective views into HP's inner life) can we list our top five desired mysteries solved, with an end run around one or both of these aspects of the limited omniscient POV? To make this more challenging I'm thinking in terms of specific, cited, cannon references. Off to work on my own challenge, Aleesahn From abigail_draconi at yahoo.com Fri Jul 16 17:27:49 2004 From: abigail_draconi at yahoo.com (Abigail Draconi) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:27:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Locating Key Incidents In-Reply-To: <1089930618.22831.68730.m19@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040716172749.95420.qmail@web90104.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106572 This is not so much a theory, as a question. I am a fanfic writer who has recently been working with ideas about alternate histories and alternate time lines when it comes to Harry Potter; basically how changing one event in the 'past' effects events within the scope of cannon. The problem is, the further back the event I am changing is in the time line, the more at loose ends I become. It is not my intent to change the key incidents of the book (beyond the initial change that led to my work becoming an alternate history/time line), but to figure out how the change effected the key incident. Which leads me to a new problem and the reason I am posting this. I am having trouble figuring out which events are key incidents. What makes a particular event a key incident? And how do the various hints that JKR leaves throughout her novels play into them - or at least the idea that key incidents occur in Harry Potter? Do key incidents occur in the books? Or are they just not quite so ordinary events? ===== @---<-- Abby I can never get people to understand that poerty is the expression of excited passion, and that there is no such thing as a life of passion any more than a continuous earthquake, or an eternal feaver -Lord Byron, 1821 Death is a doorway. Time is a window. I'll be back -don't know who said it first, but a guy in my poetry class said it last. Alien: Captain, I thought you were dead. Sheredan: I was. But I'm better now. -Babylon 5 You know, you should not aggravate the terrorist - Malfina, Outlaw Star __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From patientx3 at aol.com Fri Jul 16 20:02:12 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 20:02:12 -0000 Subject: Still wondering why Snape trusts DD! (was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106574 Kneasy wrote: >> Is Snape aware that DD was instrumental in Sirius escaping at the end of PoA? I don't think he is. DD gave him a clue, of course - "Unless you are suggesting Harry and Hermione are able to be in two places at once." So Snape probably knows about the Timeturner, but I doubt he realised it was used at DD's suggestion. << HunterGreen: How do you know that Dumbledore kept this from him? At the end of GoF, when Snape and Sirius face each other, Snape looks at him with loathing, but isn't *shocked* to see him there as though he still thought Sirius was a murderer (murderer, as in of thirteen people with one curse and all that). It makes me wonder if Dumbledore sat Snape down after he had calmed down, and explained things to him. Speculation, I know, but the fact remains that it does appear that Snape knows the truth about Sirius in GoF. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 16 20:07:33 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 20:07:33 -0000 Subject: Sirius Luring Snape In-Reply-To: <071620041222.16018.40F7C89E0004B59200003E9222007347489C9C07049D0B@comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106575 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, drliss at c... wrote: > I also think Sirius did not spend a lot of time planning this prank. If he did, he probably would have thought about the implications it would have on Lupin. (I always had the impression that Sirius had a more "romantic" idea of what it was like to be a werewolf, he never really thought about the effects on Lupin himself, or the consequences. At that point, I don't think he'd seen any murderous rages or anything.) > > It doesn't shock me that Lupin is sure Snape would have done it. It's totally in character for Snape to be a snoop, and obviously he DID do it (it's very easy to be sure with hindsight on your side!). > > > The more I think about it, the more I think the prank might have been a turning point for Sirius. Dumbledore seems to be the king of deftly-crafted guilt trips, with Lupin as his crown prince. Between the two of them (and James, who was obviously ticked), I'm betting money Sirius got some major emotional torture afterwards. But the fact it was so childish and so crude leads me to think he didn't spend hours coming up with ways to lure Snape. > > Lissa > Alla: Oh, I in case you haven't noticed I love Sirius dearly,despite his numerous flaws. I have very simple answer to why he did not consider the implications of the Prank on Remus - he ,as Padfoot hang out with Remus every motnh and it was perfectly safe, well, he may not stop and think that it may not be safe for other people. I don't think he planned the Prank at all. I may speculate that he acted on the impulse (may be he wanted revenge for something Snape did to him, I don't know), but no, I don't think that it was deliberately and carefully planned. From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 16 20:21:52 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 20:21:52 -0000 Subject: OT: Re: Cousins by marriage ? In-Reply-To: <1a5.25bbf4e4.2e28c201@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106576 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, ReturnOfTheMutt at a... wrote: > > Your cousin once removed is your cousin's child, or your parents > cousin. My mom's brother's son's daughter is my cousin once > removed. I'm her cousin once removed (actually we're adoptive step > step cousin's once removed, but those are details. > > It might be differnt in differnt places though. Even though we're not > second cousins, we refer to each other as second cousins rather than > cousins once removed. > > > -Mutt Asian_lovr2: This whole cousins (first, second, third; one removed, twice removed) thing is very confusing. As an aid to discussion, I offer this admitedly off-topic and hopefully concise analysis of the whole cousin 'thing'. First Cousin, Second Cousin- This refers to the number of generations between your parents, and your common ancestor. You and your first cousin share a common grandfather. There is one generation between your father and your grandfather; one generation, therefore first cousins. You and your second cousin share a common great-grandfather. There are two generations between your father and great-grandfather; two generations, therefore second cousins. Removed Cousins- This refers to the geneological (not chronological) generation gap between you and your cousin. If your cousin is from your father's generation, that is, they are on the same level on the geneology chart, then he/she is once removed. If from your grandfather's generation, then twice removed. This is geneological generations, and not based purely on age. Your first cousin NOT removed could be 40 and you could be 20, which chronologially puts you a generation apart, but if that cousin is the son of your father's brother (your uncle) then they are on the same level on the geneological chart as you, therefore not removed. The 'number' is the number of generations between your parent and your common ancestor. The 'removed' is the number of generations between you and your cousin. Even though I can explain it (or at least, think I can), I still find it very confusing. For what it's worth. Steve/asian_lovr2 From mad_maxime at hotmail.com Fri Jul 16 20:44:03 2004 From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 20:44:03 -0000 Subject: James gave his life, why no protection from him? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106578 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "coderaspberry77" wrote: > > > (1) Lily must have done something more than just give her life > for > > > HP, becaue James did that and nothing happened. > > > > > > or > > > > > > (2) there something about Lily that allows her to do this. > > > > > > Thoughts? > > > > > > Jake > > > > Max responded: > > > > I don't have the links where this was discussed before, but a > > number of us believe that Lily actively conjured the ancient magic > > that saved Harry's life, and she probably did so before Voldemort > > even entered the room. In order for the 'spell' to be activated, > > Lily knew that she would have to sacrifice herself for Harry. > > coderaspberry77 wrote: > This is possible, but then again, at this point aren't James and > Lily 5 years removed from Hogwart's, at the most? Would she have > learned this type of ancient magic in her studies or training for > whatever she did? Max responds: We do know that she was skilled at Charms and her wand was well suited to charm work. But otherwise we know very little about Lily at this point. It's possible that she was uniquely gifted with charms. > coderaspberry77 wrote > I am hoping we find out what the Potters did, but I have an inkling > that either there's something very special about Lily, or else Becki > was right in her earlier response to this post: That it was simply > undiluted, unadulterated, and purely unconditional love that > protected Harry. Max responds: Something special about Lily is certainly possible, but I can't buy this whole selfless sacrifice for love automatically means ancient magic protection. If that were true people would have heard about it before. There would be stories and legends about it. Lily could not possibly be the first person to sacrifice herself for someone she loved in the wizarding world, after all. Yet we know from reading PS/SS that Harry surviving the AK curse was unheard of. So something is up there as far as I'm concerned. It makes no sense that this type of protection would occur automatically. From alison.williams at virgin.net Fri Jul 16 21:11:30 2004 From: alison.williams at virgin.net (Alison Williams) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 22:11:30 +0100 Subject: Harry and Hagrid (re: Two Crazy Theories) In-Reply-To: <1090004510.19924.30236.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <40C8ED09004FAF40@n066.sc1.cp.net> (added by postmaster@bouncemessage.net) No: HPFGUIDX 106579 Jen wrote >All this alchemical wondeirng has me thinking even more that Albus will play a very important role in Book 6, possibly as the half blood prince or prince of half-bloods. Because Albus did not move on to the last or Rubedo stage; Albus instead chose to be purified, but not reunified, and his work is to die to the one who will advance to the last stage. Rubeus Hagrid will be the one left to serve Harry in his final stage. Granger says: "As the heat of the fire is increased, the divine red tincture flushes the white stone with its rich, red colour. . . . The reddening of the white matter is also frequently likened to staining with blood." >Any thoughts on that part Iris, Hans or anyone else following this thread? >Very curious. >Jen Reese I have an interest in the alchemical theme and the main thought I have on it at the moment is that it implies that we are in for a very much more positive experience in HBP than we had in OotP! What it would suggest is that we will see a resurgence, purification and enlightenment stage to follow the breaking down, dissolving nigredo stage we saw in OotP. A coming into true maturity, if you like. If this is the theme we can assume that Luna (symbolic meaning of moon, silver and intuitive knowledge) and Albus (Latin for white and of Jupiter or the 'jovial' aspect) will take a main part in it, just as Sirius Black did in the black Saturnine phase in OotP. Then Rubeus(red/martial) Hagrid and the red haired (venus/copper) Ginny as the main supporting characters in the final red stage of the work. Due to an inclination to seasickness I'm not inclined to board any 'ships, and I'd see both Luna and Ginny's roles as mainly supporting. But having said that, the goal of alchemy is the resolution of opposites, including that of male and female (Hermione and Ron being clear equivalents of the quarelling red king/white queen of alchemy.) So I don't rule Ginny out entirely as a possible Venus to Harry's Mars after he has achieved the final stage. Just my thoughts, well, just mine after they have been very heavily influenced by John Granger's books and articles and other things I've read as a result of reading those! (See his new book 'Looking for God in Harry Potter' for an excellent chapter on Doppelgangers - the opposites, twins and pairs that make up so much of the cast of characters in the HP world.) Alison From jakejensen at hotmail.com Fri Jul 16 21:20:11 2004 From: jakejensen at hotmail.com (jakedjensen) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 21:20:11 -0000 Subject: James gave his life, why no protection from him? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106581 > Max responds: > > Something special about Lily is certainly possible, but I can't buy > this whole selfless sacrifice for love automatically means ancient > magic protection. If that were true people would have heard about it > before. There would be stories and legends about it. Lily could not > possibly be the first person to sacrifice herself for someone she > loved in the wizarding world, after all. Yet we know from reading > PS/SS that Harry surviving the AK curse was unheard of. > > So something is up there as far as I'm concerned. It makes no sense > that this type of protection would occur automatically. Jake replies: I agree. Afterall, Moody (i.e., Crouch Jr.) says in GoF that the AK is "unblockable" and that HP is the only person to have survived it. Like you say Max, if there was a way to block or defend or do anything to AK why would it vanish from the collective conscious of the WW. If this selfless sacrifice for love idea ends up being the answer to the mystery I will be greatly dissapointed (because it's hard to believe that LP was the first person to die defending someone they love--especially given the age of terror). Here's an idea. We know about Lily's wand, we know that you can find out what spell was cast last from a wand (Amos Diggory teaches us this in GoF).....so what if HP finds Lily's wand and discovers what the last spell she cast was? I wonder where that wand went anyway.... Jake From tinainfay at msn.com Fri Jul 16 11:30:08 2004 From: tinainfay at msn.com (mrs_sonofgib) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:30:08 -0000 Subject: The unusual Gift? SHIP:Hermione's feelings for Ron in OotP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106583 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "paul_terzis" wrote: > > Anasazi wrote: > > "'I've been wanting that New Theory of Numerology for ages! And that > > perfume's really UNUSUAL, Ron.'" > > > > Gina wrote: > > Now girls lets be honest shall we? If your secret crush gave you an old > > sock (assuming you are not a house elf) you would say "Oh, it's lovely" no > > matter what because this is not a gift from your husband of 20 years but of > > a love that you alone know about and that you probably wonder if he feels > > the same so ANY gift would be great whether you really wanted it or not and > > you would make quite the fuss over it THUS "I've been wanting a sock like > > that for ages!" You would not say "that sock is really UNUSUAL". I'm not sure Gina. Hermione's reaction to Harry just seems like normal Hermione. She probably has wanted that book for ages and appreciates that her friend got it for her. She doesn't seem to have to be careful with her words, she feels comfortable. With Ron's gift, it is a little trickier. What do you say when anyone gives you not-so-great-smelling perfume? Unique, unusual, out of the ordinary... These are words that basically say: I can't say 'nice, lovely, beautiful' but I'm looking for something inoffensive since this person is my friend and just bought me a gift. That's my take, ~tina, who is actually pro-Ron & Hermione From dolis5657 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 16 19:56:55 2004 From: dolis5657 at yahoo.com (dcgmck) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 19:56:55 -0000 Subject: Cousins by marriage ? In-Reply-To: <1a5.25bbf4e4.2e28c201@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106584 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, ReturnOfTheMutt at a... wrote: > Your cousin once removed is your cousin's child, or your parents cousin. My > mom's brother's son's daughter is my cousin once removed. I'm her cousin once > removed (actually we're adoptive step step cousin's once removed, but those > are details. > > It might be differnt in differnt places though. Even though we're not second > cousins, we refer to each other as second cousins rather than cousins once > removed. > > > -Mutt > http://www.tradinglinks.com/cgi-bin/classified/classified.cgi? category=antiques27&item=1089332354#OTHER According to Mutt's explanation of genealogical terminology, then, Molly's cousin could have married a cousin of Sirius, thus making them cousins by marriage without reference to Arthur Weasley, right? "dcgmck" From Wolfie_Musician at yahoo.com Fri Jul 16 20:22:13 2004 From: Wolfie_Musician at yahoo.com (Wolfie_Musician at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 20:22:13 -0000 Subject: James gave his life, why no protection from him? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106586 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "garybec" wrote: > jake wrote: > > (1) Lily must have done something more than just give her life for > > HP, becaue James did that and nothing happened. > > > > or > > > > (2) there something about Lily that allows her to do this. > Becki's thought; > > Perhaps it goes to the saying that there is no stronger love than a > mother has for her child. > > James was definatly defending his family but perhaps, in his heart, > he had additional thoughts, trying to defeat LV, as well as trying > to protect his family. Perhaps the very thought in Lily's mind at > the exact time she died was ONLY to protect Harry, so at that very > minute, she transfered that protection. Wolfie_musician's thought: Expounding on that, I'm also inclined to think that it has something to do with what's going through their mind at the exact moment they die. Obviously when strong emotions are involved, wizards do magic without even thinking. James was in the other room (I think...?) and was probably thinking that he had to fight off Voldemort singlehandedly so his family could escape. Fighting Voldemort since he was face to face with him is probably the first and foremost thought in his mind. It's kind of a 'guy' sort of thing to do, don't you think? Whereas Lily, knowing that James was dead and she had had no options to think of...thought only of Harry, literally the only family she had left, her only beloved son, the boy who was prophesized to save the world. Her final thought was of protecting Harry, and James's was of fighting off Voldemort. From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Fri Jul 16 20:39:16 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 20:39:16 -0000 Subject: Snape warned James? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106587 I tried the search engine to see if this had been discussed before but couldn't find it. I'm sure it has but hey-ho, off we go. . .! ;o) Having just read the Shreiking Shack scene in PoA again for the umpteenth time (it's one of my faves!) I noticed something that hadn't registered before. When Snape is shouting at Harry he says (Ch19 uk p265) '...You'd have died like your father, too arrogant *to believe* you might be mistaken in Black -...' (emphasis mine) To me it seems that Snape KNEW James had been warned about BLACK. You can't *not believe* something you don't know! As it appears that no-one 'knew' Black was the traitor before GH happened, it strikes me that what Snape says here is weird. I am now wondering if Peter, who had been spying for LV for a year before GH (PoA uk p274 ch19), told LV that Black was going to be secret keeper but that he (Peter) would try to manipulate Black to change. LV could have used this info to flush out his traitor. If he suspected Snape, he could have told him that Black was going to turn on James. Snape then informs DD or tells James himself to watch out for Black. James doesn't believe him and, as far as Snape knows, keeps the secret keeper as Black. This would infuriate Snape no end and would go part way to explain his actions in the SS. LV would then know that Snape was the traitor as it would get back to him that Black was suspected. What do you think? "aggiepaddy" From jenniferstmatt at yahoo.com Fri Jul 16 20:55:55 2004 From: jenniferstmatt at yahoo.com (jenniferstmatt) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 20:55:55 -0000 Subject: Don't the Death Eaters know that Snape's a spy? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106588 I am new at this, so please forgive me if this is an old or much discussed question - I did not see it in the FAQs. At the end of Goblet of Fire, Voldemort summons the Death Eaters. They form a circle, and, while he doesn't mention him by name, Voldemort indicates that one of the six who are missing has left him forever and will, of course, be killed. Wouldn't Voldemort have told the remaining Death Eaters who it is who has left his service forever? Why hasn't an attempt been made on Snape's life? Snape admits to Harry that it is his job to know what Voldemort is telling his Death Eaters (Occlumency lesson, Order of the Phoenix) - are the Death Eaters feeding him bad information? Jen From hubbalance at yahoo.com Fri Jul 16 20:58:33 2004 From: hubbalance at yahoo.com (Lori Beth Kruse) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:58:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Neville, the Frog Prince In-Reply-To: <006701c46b53$308f45d0$6601a8c0@DocSavage> Message-ID: <20040716205833.79516.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106589 --- Iggy McSnurd wrote: > Iggy here: > Neville has Trevor the Toad as his pet... Hi, I'm new here. Hope this hasn't been mentioned before. :) Something that occurred to me as I was reading Iggy's post... Neville has Trevor. The other kids have animals like Hedwig, Crookshanks, Pigwidgeon and Scabbers. (I don't remember the names of anyone else's pets). Trevor is a (fairly common?) boy's name. The others, well, don't seem to be human names at all (or at least first names!) Could this mean something? :) Hubba From pinkfoxranger at yahoo.com Fri Jul 16 21:16:51 2004 From: pinkfoxranger at yahoo.com (Eva) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 21:16:51 -0000 Subject: James gave his life, why no protection from him? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106590 I haven't joined in a long, long time, but I had a few thoughts. We know about Lily's sacrifice and the mark it left on Harry. But how about the shape of Harry's Patronus as a mark of James' protection? It has never been exactly explained why Patroni take a certain shape. The only part I don't know how to place is where the shapes of Hermiones and Cho's Patroni come from. "Eva" From omphale at onetel.com Fri Jul 16 21:08:14 2004 From: omphale at onetel.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 21:08:14 -0000 Subject: Vanquishing Voldemort Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106591 I don't think it will happen with wands at all. I think it will be connected with the power which the dark lord knows not, which is what Harry has in his heart and I suspect what resides in the sealed room in the DoM, which may well be linked to the ancient magic which is Harry's legacy of protection from Lily. If you end up with a situation where Harry and LV are locked in that room, and quite possibly locked in each other (some sort of mutual possession) then maybe LV could not survive. Harry should be able to survive in the room because of his exposure to his mother's protection. Although LV can now touch Harry he still cannot bear to possess him when Harry feels strong emotions of love. Which brings us on to the prophecy - Is the infamous, either neither bit about LV and Riddle. I suspect that LV could not survive the room in the DoM, but maybe Tom Riddle can? Interestingly, DD addresses LV as Tom and in the duel at the end of HPOoP, he does not set out to kill LV, to LV's surprise. Is Dumbledore on a mission to save LV from himself? Well that's my two knuts worth, although being new to the group, I suspect that I'm not the first person to suggest this. Maybe my elf can point me in the direction of the back catalogue on this. Saraquel From omphale at onetel.com Fri Jul 16 21:21:43 2004 From: omphale at onetel.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 21:21:43 -0000 Subject: James gave his life, why no protection from him? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106592 > Max responds: > > Something special about Lily is certainly possible, but I can't buy > this whole selfless sacrifice for love automatically means ancient > magic protection. If that were true people would have heard about it > before. There would be stories and legends about it. Lily could not > possibly be the first person to sacrifice herself for someone she > loved in the wizarding world, after all. Yet we know from reading > PS/SS that Harry surviving the AK curse was unheard of. > > So something is up there as far as I'm concerned. It makes no sense > that this type of protection would occur automatically. Saraquel adds two knuts: I think Harry survived the AK curse because it didn't hit him directly. During the priori incantatem at the end of GoF, James follows Lilly follows Bertha Jorkins - there is no indication that another spell was cast in between to kill Harry - (the cruciatus curses which did not kill people were marked by screams) - this implies to me that one curse did three things - killed Lily, scarred Harry and rebounded on Voldemort. So maybe Lily put herself between Voldemort and Harry and took the curse for herself, much like Fawkes did for DD. That does leave the intruiging question as to how Harry got the scar, if not directly from the curse. From garybec101 at comcast.net Fri Jul 16 21:55:15 2004 From: garybec101 at comcast.net (garybec) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 21:55:15 -0000 Subject: James gave his life, why no protection from him? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106593 > > > Max responds: > > > > Something special about Lily is certainly possible, but I can't buy > > this whole selfless sacrifice for love automatically means ancient > > magic protection. If that were true people would have heard about it > > before. There would be stories and legends about it. Lily could not > > possibly be the first person to sacrifice herself for someone she > > loved in the wizarding world, after all. Yet we know from reading > > PS/SS that Harry surviving the AK curse was unheard of. > > > > So something is up there as far as I'm concerned. It makes no sense > > that this type of protection would occur automatically. > > Jake replies: > > I agree. Afterall, Moody (i.e., Crouch Jr.) says in GoF that the AK > is "unblockable" and that HP is the only person to have survived it. > Like you say Max, if there was a way to block or defend or do > anything to AK why would it vanish from the collective conscious of > the WW. If this selfless sacrifice for love idea ends up being the > answer to the mystery I will be greatly dissapointed (because it's > hard to believe that LP was the first person to die defending someone > they love--especially given the age of terror). > > Here's an idea. We know about Lily's wand, we know that you can find > out what spell was cast last from a wand (Amos Diggory teaches us > this in GoF).....so what if HP finds Lily's wand and discovers what > the last spell she cast was? I wonder where that wand went anyway.... > > Jake Becki's back; Perhaps there is more to it than just the Mother sacraficing her life for her child. Maybe there are more factors that need to be in place. The date, October 31, possibly has something to do with it or the fact that Harry was 1 year from conception date (calender wise anyway), the moons aligning a certin way, etc... I do think the person had a valid point who came up with the theory that Lily made the "choice" to die for Harry where as James died in battle, (I know doing the same thing but...I don't think he had a choice, at least acording to LV.) And, not to dis Fathers love, I never ment that, just that I think a Mothers bond is different, not that one is better than the other (and definatly, not in all circumstances). Cheers, Becki From dolis5657 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 16 18:17:35 2004 From: dolis5657 at yahoo.com (dcgmck) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 18:17:35 -0000 Subject: Vanquishing Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106594 Celestina: > > There was a thread recently about the prophecy at the end of OofP, in > > which "one has to die at the HAND of the other", which can be > > interpreted as Harry needing to vanquish Voldemort with his hands, > > and not his wand, as we know that priori incantatem will be a problem > > again if they duel once more. I thought it was a brilliant idea, btw. You emphasize "Hand". Could that mean that Peter Pettigrew might repay his debt to Harry by using the silver hand Voldemort gave him to destroy the former's master? That would make for an interesting twist while taking the brother wands completely out of the equation... "dcgmck" From entropymail at yahoo.com Fri Jul 16 23:30:24 2004 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 23:30:24 -0000 Subject: James gave his life, why no protection from him? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106597 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "garybec" wrote: > > > > > Max responds: > > > > > > Something special about Lily is certainly possible, but I can't > buy > > > this whole selfless sacrifice for love automatically means > ancient > > > magic protection. I outlined this scenerio in another discussion, but it seems to fit here, so I thought I'd throw it out and see if it bounces (run it up the flagpole and see who salutes it? anyway...) It relates to Lily performing a protection charm on Harry, Harry's scar as a result of that charm, and why Dumbledore thinks this scar is significant. Here goes: 1. Eihwaz rune: looks like a lightning bolt, stands for life, death, rebirth, and protection. Curses are reflected off. 2. Lily's wand was good for charms. Since James' wand was good for transfiguration and he was talented at transfiguration, we can assume that since Lily's wand is good for charms, she is talented at charms. 3. Lily performed Ancient Magic to protect Harry from Voldemort at Godric's Hollow, which Voldie hadn't counted on. It is a charm that could be sealed only with her death, with the sacrifice of her own life. 4. No one seems to understand curse-scars: what they should look like, or even if there is such a thing, so we cannot assume that Harry's scar is from Voldie's AK curse gone wrong. >From these facts, I think we might be able to put together a fairly reasonable explanation of what happened at Godric's Hollow, how Harry's scar came about, and how all of this relates to the eihwaz: Somehow, James and Lily realize that Voldemort has found out where they are hiding. Knowing that there is no way out of this, Lily decides to perform a protection charm on Harry, using her knowledge of Ancient Magic. She performs the charm and Lily tricks Voldemort into killing her first, before Harry ("No, not Harry! Kill me instead!"). With this sacrifice of her own life, Harry's protection charm is sealed. A rune of protection (eihwaz) is formed on Harry's forehead. When Voldemort attempts to AK Harry, the curse is reflected off of Harry. The rebound of this powerful curse causes devastation. Godric's Hollow is destroyed. Voldemort would have been killed as well, but because he has taken so many precautions against his own death, he is simply rendered a shadow of a human being, a ghostly non-dead self. Dumbledore may have recognized the eihwaz rune when he saw Harry's scar for the first time, realizing the Ancient Magic behind it, and that is why he decided to leave Harry "marked". He may not have been sure it would protect Harry in the future, but he may have decided to leave it in case it's protection remained effective. So, does it bounce? :: Entropy :: From Batchevra at aol.com Fri Jul 16 23:38:47 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 19:38:47 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and Hagrid (was: Two Crazy Theories) Message-ID: <1d9.262d5407.2e29c107@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106598 In a message dated 7/16/04 9:15:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk writes: >Hans: > So Harry will die, and take over Hagrid's job. Does sound rather > crazy, doesn't it. Yet that is what will happen as indicated by the > Alchemical Wedding. Iris: > I think it's logical if Harry's story ends `at Hagrid's. [...] Dumbledore says to Mac Gonagall: `I would trust Hagrid with my life'. Dave Witley: The first time you go to Hogwarts, he takes you across in a ferry. He owns a three-headed dog. [...] "I would trust Hagrid with my life" may thus be a quite literal prediction. Hagrid can usher Harry off the stage, no doubt using transportation provided by Sirius, away from the mundane world of the Dursleys, into the next great adventure with Dumbledore.[...] Hans again: A very interesting idea, Dave. Thanks for the response. It's not quite what I had in mind, but then again, why not? Hagrid as Charon. Hm.< Charon is Firenze who Hagrid saved from the other Centaurs and is now teaching Divination at Hogwarts. I am reading at this point a book called Holy Blood, Holy Grail, and in it described the Alchemical properties of the philosopher's stone, White, Red and Black. Could book 7 bring us back to the Philosopher's Stone? and what is in Sirius' vault number 711? What else did Remus, James and Sirius make? Where is book 6? Too many questions. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Fri Jul 16 23:45:19 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 23:45:19 -0000 Subject: Life Debts to Harry In-Reply-To: <20040716161116.7202.qmail@web90003.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106600 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sp. sot." wrote: > > udder_pen_dragon wrote: > > I was doing some digging and this thought struck me. > We know that Wormtail ows Harry a life debt from PoA > Does Ginny from the CoS > And do: Snape, Ron and Hermione From the Dementors in PoA. > > I did not include Sirius because he is dead, although JKR has said some funny things about Sirisus's death. > > Just somthing to ponder. > > > I am sorry for appearing to answer myself but I wanted to add: > > If Dudley were the late developing magic user would he immediatly owe Harry a life debt? > > TTFN Udder Pen Dragon > > > Griffin782002 now: > > Actually with the term Life Debt, I was thinking about people who are not close to Harry. Ron, Hermione and Ginny are quite close to each other and help at any time.I personally think that the people that are really debted to Harry are Snape, Peter and, if he is going to develop magical powers, Dudley. > > Griffin782002 Valky: If this were so, Harry is accumulating quite a list of debtors isn't he. I do, however, see an important distinction in the cases. Peters life debt to Harry is not owed of Harry 'saving' Peters life but more of 'sparing' it. Now before we clamber in droves to say "But Lupin and Sirius were the ones who spared him..." I add that they did so only, as we know, at Harry's behest rather than their own and it was in essence *Harrys* vengeance that they sought in killing Peter. Hence the continued life of Peter is enormously owed to Harry, though Harry at no time was *obliged in his honour* to protect the Rat. Which leads to the other cases which are entirely more honour driven than this one, and most likely we consider them possible life debts based on the assumption that they are equal to James rescue of Snape from the Shrieking Shack. In order to make this connection we must first assume that James was on *his* honour obliged to protect Snape. Perhaps he was not, it seems liley given that the only actual canon life debt we have been told of is Peters and Peter was the one responsible for the murder of Harrys Family. So it *is* a logical step to consider that Snape may well have been guilty of a similar crime against James leaving James with no particular honour to serve in rescuing Snape from the werewolf; equal, therefore, to Harrys 'sparing' of Peter. Best to you all Valky still on about James... I know... I know :D From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 00:26:07 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 00:26:07 -0000 Subject: Pureblood attitudes and the word "racism" (Was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106601 Alla wrote: Carol, I decided to reply to your post, but I have no idea whether my reply will be to your liking or not. I am going to reply anyways, Sorry! I want to make a very small introduction before I hopefully go on topic. realise that you don't like "duel-like" responses. Well, I love them. I don't mind quiet discussion of the issues. Sometimes it is interesting, but I like "debate like " responses more. Carol responds: I think you misunderstood my objection to onlist "dueling." It isn't the format (a point-by-point debate) that I was objecting to in the post in question, it was the tone of the challenge: Come on, sharpen your wand and match wits with me! The point of posting, for me, is not to show how clever we are or even to prove that we're right but to present plausible interpretations of events, objects, and (especially) characters and try to support those hypotheses with canonical evidence. (BTW, I've noticed that some posters lately are confusing proof with evidence. Anything we can actually *prove*, for example, that Sirius is an animagus or that Snape is Harry's least favorite teacher, is not worth discussing. Or rather, once we have the proof we need regarding the truth or falsity of a particular speculation or theory, as in the Mark Evans case, it's time to end the discussion.) Anyway, as I have a rather low tolerance for flashy rhetoric masquerading as reason, or a confusion of opinion or feelings with fact, I thought it was best not to answer that particular post--especially since I have my own opinions and feelings and prejudices (and am capable of an occasional rhetorical flourish), and I didn't want to fall into the same trap. I don't want to "attack" anyone's arguments or "bash" any characters, even those whose actions or values I disapprove of, including James and Sirius in the Pensieve scene and Sirius (I'm not sure about James) in the Prank. What I want to do is *understand* the characters and their motives and actions--even Voldemort and Lucius Malfoy and Bellatrix, all of whom (unlike the enigmatic Snape) are indisputably evil. (Or should I say, there's no canon evidence that they're anything but evil in the books so far, presumably by their own choice and not by nature, given JKR's views on the nature of evil.) But at least we both agree that James' and Sirius' actions (as opposed to James and Sirius themselves--who, like Severus in the same scene, are fifteen-year-old boys and should be understood as such) are less than admirable. Whew! (Pauses for breath.) So. Civility. Objectivity. Canon. Keeping our own personalities and real-world political views and emotional reactions to the characters out of the discussion. Exploring possibilities, clearing up misunderstandings, *not* "proving" we're right or "attacking" other people's arguments. That's what I think posting should be about even though, being human, I don't always succeed in meeting my own expectations. I'll try to keep that kind of emotionally based thinking out of this response, partly to act on my own convictions and partly because it's pointless to attempt to persuade anyone based on my own "feeling" that I'm right. I might as well insist that licorice is delicious because *I* like it and assume that my tastes will persuade someone who hates it to change her mind. Now to the topic itself, with apologies for the long preliminaries! Alla wrote: > At the risk of sounding snippy, NO, I don't think that we are making > more than we ought to out of "mudblood." Let's separate Muggles from Muggleborns, OK? Wizards' attitude towards Muggles is indeed patronising . What DE and future DE think about Muggleborns is a very different story, IMO. > "It's about the most insulting thing he could think of," > gasped Ron, coming back up. "Mudblood's a really foul name for someone who is Muggle-born ? you know, non-magic parents. There are some wizards? like Malfoy's family who think they are better than everyone else because they're what people call pure-blood" > I think the prejudice IS against the blood. I will not pretend to be > an expert on racism in the United States, because ...well, I am not, > even though I am trying my best to learn as much as I can, but I know pretty well, as I wrote earlier, about the treatment of jews in the former Soviet Union and you know, sometimes I am wondering, whether JKR had some kind of similar prejudice in mind, even more than race related prejudice. Carol responds: I understand your position and I probably won't be able to persuade you to think otherwise. All I'm asking is for you to look at my arguments and consider them objectively. Certainly JKR has some real world examples of genocide in mind with relation to VWI and I agree that she's connecting the pureblood prejudice in itself with the consequences of taking it too far, but that's not what I'm talking about here. I'm only objecting to the term "racism," which I think has been applied rather hastily and inaccurately to the pureblood prejudice against Muggleborns and particularly to the word "mudblood," which some posters appear to be equating with the term "n****r" and other equally offensive racial epithets. IMO, the application of an emotionally charged term like "racism" to the "purebloods are superior" attitude of the Slytherins prevents us from looking at them objectively and understanding why they think as they do. (I'm not saying that we should *agree* with them or that such attitudes, taken to extremes can't be harmful. Obviously they can be, both in the RW and the WW. Nor am I defending the DEs' Mugglebaiting or Tom Riddle's attacks on Muggleborns in CoS, which are of course reprehensible. I'm only saying that words like "racism" (which is *not* used within the WW itself) push people's buttons and consequently should be avoided if we want to understand what makes the Slytherin purebloods think, speak, and act as they do. Assumptions such as "racism is evil: the Slytherins are racist; therefore Slytherin House is evil" are facile and counterproductive. We can't impose our own assumptions on them no matter how right we believe ourselves to be, but if we continue to apply the term "racism" to their actions and values, that's exactly what we'll do. We'll prejudge them as they prejudge the Muggleborns. A question of semantics? Semantics is important. Just ask Dumbledore. What we're seeing in the WW is prejudice, yes, but it isn't racism because it doesn't involve races. Racism per se is remarkably absent from the Potterverse. No one at Hogwarts even considers the race or nationality of the students. Ginny thinks nothing of dating Dean, for example, even though that would be a big deal even now in certain parts of the United States because he's black and she's white. The closest we come to that sort of racism is Pansy Parkinson's remark in (I think) OoP about Angelina's hairstyle. Overall, though, the non-white characters are regarded in exactly the same way as the white ones. In fact, we wouldn't even know that Dean Thomas, Lee Jordan, and Kingsley Shacklebolt are black if JKR hadn't told us. It's a nonissue. But we do see what might better be termed "prejudice" among people who are all of the same race (Harry and Draco, Lily and Snape, Diary!Tom and his petrified or murdered victims, the real Tom and his own family). How can it possibly be racism if they're all of the same race, including the Muggles as well as the Muggleborns? And if it isn't based on race, what, exactly, is it based on? To return to your argument, Alla, I *don't* think we can separate the prejudice against Muggles from the prejudice against Muggleborns. It's the fact that Muggleborns are the children of nonmagical parents that causes the pureblood antagonism against them in the first place, as your quote from Ron indicates. Yes, the prejudice is against the "blood," but it's not against the "race." The purebloods fear contamination from "dirty blood" if a pureblood marries a Muggleborn, the child of two Muggles. Why? I can't prove this, but surely it must be a fear of having nonmagical children. Marrying a Muggleborn, in the view of the WW at large, is like marrying a Muggle--as indicated by the application of the term "half blood" to Harry by everyone from Dumbledore to Voldemort. Dumbledore doesn't share the prejudice, but he, too, makes no distinction between a Muggle and a Muggleborn in determining blood purity. Voldemort, whose prejudice takes the extreme form of murder, makes no distinction between Harry's "blood" status and his own. They're both "half-bloods," a term he applies to Harry both in GoF and (as Diary!Tom) in Cos. In the graveyard scene in GoF, he compares Harry's Muggleborn mother to his own Muggle father, and his contempt for both of them is unmistakable: "[My father was]a Muggle and a fool. Very like your dear mother" (Am. ed. 646). Voldemort is completely unwilling to concede Lily's power as a witch or the importance of her self-sacrifice because to him she's just a Muggle who has no business in the WW. And of course we know about young Tom's and Diary!Tom's attempts to rid Hogwarts of contamination by Muggleborns via the basilisk. Riddle/Voldemort's hatred is intensied by the Muggle blood in his own veins, and both his hatred of "dirty blood" and his contempt for Muggleborns extend to the Muggles who are the source of that blood, particularly the father and grandparents he murdered. (Possibly he also hates his mother, who dared to sully her "pure" blood and her descent from the great Salazar Slytherin by marrying a Muggle, though oddly we've seen no evidence of that so far.) Whether it manifests as hatred or contempt or both, none of this prejudice has anything to do with race. It boils down to one thing only: the ability or inability to do magic and the perceived superiority of those who can (wizards and especially pureblood wizards) over those who can't (Muggles and probably Squibs--note Diary!Tom's snide reference to "the Squib's cat" in CoS). The prejudice extends beyond Muggles to their descendants, whose blood is "muddy" *because* it's Muggle blood. (Del's point that Muggleborns come to Hogwarts with a "handicap" because they have no experience with magic is well-taken; Draco, who can already cast a Serpensortia at age twelve, would certainly have laughed in his sleeve during his first Charms class at the Muggleborns learning to "swish and flick," but the houses are separated in that particular class so we don't see him doing it. But I think the ineptitude of the new Muggleborns is not the root cause of the prejudice: it merely reinforces the existing assumption that Muggle blood makes the Muggleborns inferior. the incompetence of most incoming Muggleborns would appear to the Slytherin purebloods to be solid evidence that they're correct in viewing themselves as superior.) Alla wrote: > Sorry, Carol, my perspective of intolerance does not include > tolerance of the values, which when expressed out loud could > eventually lead to hatred and killings. I gave you my RL examples of > such "name-calling" and usually it implies that the person is > already full of hatred to somebody who is different than he/she is. Carol responds: I, too, have no tolerance for values that lead to abuse or killing, either, whether its genocide or female infanticide, but there's a huge difference between name-calling and murder. That's like saying that calling Snape "Snivellus" leads to a desire to murder him. But my point was that we should not let our own views on what is tolerable prevent us from examining the purebloods' culture and values and motives objectively, just as we should examine the culture and values of the ancient Greeks and Romans and the ante-bellum Southern plantation owners without judging these people for not thinking as we do. It's important, in fact essential, to our interpretation of HP canon to understand their perspective as best we can even though we don't share it. We have to consider that these people have been indoctrinated from childhood with values that are anathema to us and that we have been taught values that would seem ridiculous to them. If you had been born in the eighteenth or nineteenth century, would you hold the values you hold today through an innate knowledge that they're inherently "right"? Probably not. If Severus Snape had been raised by a Hufflepuff mother and a Ravenclaw father, would he hold the views he does as a fifteen-year-old and perhaps an adult? Probably not. Alla wrote: > If we knew that Severus only said this word once in his life under > the stress, I would not condemn him, but we KNOW that he acted on it > by joining Voldemort, so yes, I 'd say that his actions are > reprehensible. Carol responds: I don't think we can compare his angry response at being helped by a girl he's been taught to regard as inferior (and may even subconsciously resent for not living down to his expectations) to his later decision to join Voldemort. We have no evidence that at fifteen he was interested in doing well on his exams (at least the DADA one) and feuding with James on a personal level. (I think his hatred of Sirius dates from the Prank, which comes slightly later.) I don't excuse his joining the Death Eaters at, say, eighteen (surely not fifteen), but it's hardly surprising that he did so given his background and the fact that most if not all of his friends had joined before him (there's evidence that most of the Slytherin "gang" were older than he was). Personal antagonism to James and Sirius may have played a role, but I think he wanted his gifts to be recognized--as they had been when he was admitted as a junior member of the Slytherin gang. He would have felt that he *belonged* on that side, just as he *belonged* in Slytherin. It's possible, however, that like Regulus Black, he didn't know what he was getting into. What matters is that (thanks to luck and cleverness and possibly an early mastery of occlumency), he was able, unlike Regulus, to change sides without being detected and murdered--*before* Voldemort was vaporized. That took great courage and a strangely unSlytherin sense of integrity which could not have been expected given his upbringing. It was his choice to join the Death Eaters, but it was also his choice to leave them and join Dumbledore. And I think we should remember that when we judge him. Alla wrote: > I am not saying that he could not change, I would be delighted to > learn that he does not hold such views anymore, but for now I find > what he did to be inexcusable. Carol responds: Well, I hold what Sirius did in the Prank to be inexcusable, but I don't judge him solely on that one incident. He was rash and reckless and inconsiderate of other's feelings, but he didn't deserve twelve years in Azkaban or confinement in the unhealthy environment of Grimmauld Place. And I dislike the young James for his arrogance and bullying, but there's no question in my mind that he redeemed himself and would have been an admirable man and loving father had he lived. Neither should be judged solely by his words or actions as a boy--and neither should Snape. As for the adult Snape changing his views that purebloods are superior to Muggleborns, I'm not sure we can expect that. Certainly he knows that Muggleborns can be powerful (like Lily) or intelligent (like Hermione), and he probably resents that. But, just as Quirrell said in SS/PS about Snape and Harry--he dislikes him but he doesn't want him dead. And the same, I'm pretty sure, applies to his attitude toward Muggleborns. > Alla wrote: > who does not know whether her responce was calm or rational enough > for Carol's taste. :o) Carol responds: Close. You did try, and I appreciate that. I just don't think you should let what Severus said at fifteen, or the beliefs he was taught from childhood, color your judgment of the adult Snape, who for all his faults appears to have extraordinary courage and to be loyal to Dumbledore. And how can we condemn him for not holding views that he was never taught? That isn't rational. Neither is refusing to forgive a fictional character for acting within the context of his own world. If he turns out to have used his pureblood prejudices as an excuse to kill and torture Muggleborns, an act which *does* violate the ethical and moral standards of the WW as a whole and which he would have *known* to be wrong, I'll understand your unwillingness to forgive him--as long as you don't try to "prove" that the action is unforgiveable using our own outside standards. The term "Unforgiveable Curses" is sufficient, I think, to indicate that the WW and JKR herself would share your view. I also still think we should avoid the word "racism" in connection with pureblood attitudes, but I have no objection to the more accurate and less emotionally loaded "prejudice." I hope you understand why I think as I do even if you still don't agree. Also, since I've said all I have to say on the matter and am behind on posting, I probably won't be responding to this thread again unless someone raises a really good point that I can respond to intelligently. Carol, who reserves the right to vent her emotions in an outraged, irrational post if Snape turns out to be as reprehensible as certain posters think he is ;-) From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 00:28:17 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 00:28:17 -0000 Subject: Pureblood Vs. Halfblood Vs Fullblood In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106602 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jakedjensen" wrote: > > Tilly adds: > > Similarly the child of two muggle-born wizards is not "muggle- > > born". Can't be. Both parents are wizards. > Jake replies: > > ... Second, a child of two muggle-born wizards can be muggle-born > because, according to the purists, they have no old family blood. > Remember, muggle-blood refers to one's absence of old family blood > (which, since there is only one other category possible, means the > person has muggle-blood). Asian_lovr2: Not quite. First, the terms are subjective, they a defined not by formal absolute definition, but by the opinion of a given speaker at a given time. To some, if you have a few generations of pureblood, then that's close enough. To others, any muggles anywhere, no matter how many generation back, makes you contaminated, and therefore not a pureblood. The son or daughter of a witch and a wizard is always a FULL-blood, but not necessarily a Pureblood. Harry as an example is a fullblood, magical blood on both sides of his family, but because his mother, a witch, was muggle born, his bloodline is not pure through many previous generation, therefore, not pureblood. I admit Harry has been referred to as a halfblood, but that is a matter of the opinion of the speaker and related to the context of a given conversation, and not a statement of absolute geneological fact. Seamus on the other hand, has a muggle father and a witch mother, therefore, he is Halfblood; half magical, half muggle. Pureblood is the most subjective. Certainly, the result of a magic/magic union, but every person defines it differently and to a different degree. The implication is that your ancestry traces back through countless generations without any muggle blood. However, regardless of their pureblood mania, I suspect virtually all alledged purebloods have a muggle hiding in their geneological woodshed somewhere. A Squib is a magically retarted person born to a magical family. You can't be a Squib without a direct line of magical ancestry. In addition, I don't believe Squibs are 100% devoid of magic. I think they are just extremely handicapped in the realm of spell magic, a handicap which probably extends to potions. > > ...edited... > > Tilly adds: > > Then of course there are squibs, where do they fit in? I mean the > > son of a squib (from a pureblooded family, of course) and a > > muggle. Would he be muggle-born or a halfblood? :) > > > > Jake replies: > Squibs are the exception that, I think, proves the rule. See, squibs > don't have magical blood, but they can still be connected to the > bloodline. So squibs can still be pure-blood. The aristocracy can't > have it any other way, because what if one of their own becomes a > squib (by the way, I always thought a great t-shirt slogan would > be "Squib Happens")? So, if a squib and a muggle-born had a child, > the child would be half-blood (squibs relation to the bloodline). > > Just my thoughts, > > Jake Asian_lovr2: Squibs are very tricky to define. In a sense they do have pure magical blood, magic father, magic mother, but they don't have any magic. Geneologically, biologically they have magic blood and ancestry, but again they don't have any magic. Or none to speak of; I do believe they have some. The number of non-magical generations of Squib decendants it takes to finally convert to a muggle, again, as with pureblood, is subjective. The number is different to different people depending on the depth of their prejudice. If a Squib marries a muggle and produces non-magic children, then they have an extremely high likelihood of producing subsequent generations of non-magical children. But if a Squib marries a magical person, the likelihood that they will produce non-magical children is extremely thin. You have magical genes on both sides of the family, even though, you only have magic on one side. My main point is that Pureblood is very subjective, different people define it in different ways at different times. Just passing it along. Steve/asian_lovr2 From chinaskinotes at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 16 16:20:24 2004 From: chinaskinotes at sbcglobal.net (chinaskisnotes) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 16:20:24 -0000 Subject: "Prince" in HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106603 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "angellslin" > wrote: > > When everyone is guessing which boy/man the "Half Blood Prince" is > > referring, my question is - how come a prince emerges? Hi, fairly new here, but I'd like to add my thoughts to this bit about a prince emerging. Need the prince be new? It could be a Flamel type issue- we're thinking about modern wizards, when it's possible the prince could be someone ancient, someone from history or legend. Need the prince be someone in the *modern* WW? "chinaskisnotes" From aleesahn at earthlink.net Sat Jul 17 00:06:31 2004 From: aleesahn at earthlink.net (aleesahn) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 00:06:31 -0000 Subject: Whose point of view ? (A Challenge!) LONG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106606 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aleesahn" wrote: > My challenge is this: > Taking into consideration both aspects of the limited omniscient > narrator (limited range and selective views into HP's inner life) > can we list our top five desired mysteries solved, with an end run > around one or both of these aspects of the limited omniscient POV? > To make this more challenging I'm thinking in terms of specific, > cited, cannon references. > > Off to work on my own challenge, Ok, so I'm responding to my own post here to get the ball rolling! Top Five "Mysteries I Wish Could be Solved by Bending the POV Rules" *Note: This list differs from a top five/ten list of what we hope to have resolved in the next book (or by the end of the series), in that these are mysteries that could have been solved with POV violations, but that might never be solved with the established narrative arch. Of course they could be solved other ways, besides the POV bending scenarios here, and we can always hope *Note #2: My intention here is not to reopen these (very well and thoroughly debated) controversies on the list, but rather to pinpoint those mysteries JKR has (intentionally or not) set up with her choice of POV. In case you see a mystery on this list that you aren't familiar with, or want to get more background on, I suggest you peruse the FAQ, the Fantastic Posts and Where to Find Them, and the Harry Potter Lexicon to get the scoop. 5) Is Mrs. Longbottom sending a coded message to Neville with her gum wrapper gifts, or just offering tokens of her (befuddled) affection? In OP, Chapter 23, Neville visits his parents at St. Mungo's and his mother gives him a gum wrapper as a parting gift. Thoughts I want to read: Mrs. Longbottom's What I would hope to see revealed: Is she thinking, "With that final wrapper Neville will have all the elements of my code in hand! If only he can interpret the poignant symbolism of the creased foil markings " or is she just listening to softly playing, interior elevator music? 4) Who does Hermione fancy? In OP, Chapter 16, at the Hog's Head, Hermione lets slip that Ginny is dating Michael Corner. Conversation I want to overhear: Ginny telling Hermione that she had started seeing Michael. What I would hope to see revealed: How does Hermione take the news that Ginny is "moving on" from Harry? Is Ginny's decision the result of some advice from Hermione? Is Hermione indifferent? Is she *relieved*? 3) What was the deal struck between Dumbledore and Petunia? In OP, Chapter 2, Petunia receives a Howler saying, "Remember my last!" from Dumbledore as Mr. Dursley is throwing Harry out. Thoughts I want to read: Petunia's after the Howler message is delivered. What I would hope to see revealed: Petunia's memory of the letter Dumbledore tucked into Harry's blankets when he left him on the Dursley doorstep as an infant. Petunia's memory of her last conversation/interaction with her sister before she was killed- does she regret anything lost in that relationship? What _is_ it exactly that will come down on Petunia's head if Harry is kicked out: the wrath of the OOP/DD? A beyond-the-grave curse from her sister? Exposure of Dudley to risk? 2) Sorting Hat and the Qualities of the Houses In SS/PS, Chapter 7, we hear the Sorting Hat's conversation with Harry when he gets sorted into Gryffindor. Conversation(s) I want to overhear: The sorting of Hermione (how does the hat balance intelligence with courage? or other competing traits?), the sorting of some Hufflepuff students (are they placed for their virtues, or b/c they're not an obvious fit for the other houses?) What I would hope to see revealed: The nature of sorting- is it more about the student's choices in a tie (as with Harry) or more about the founder's respective requirements? What is the deal with Hufflepuff: unsung heroes or leftovers? 1) What is DD's connection to socks? In SS/PS, Chapter 12, DD answers Harry's question about what DD would see in the Mirror of Erised by saying, "I? I see myself holding a pair of thick, woolen socks." Thoughts I want to read: DD's What I would hope to see revealed: Either DD is thinking, "Hehehe, good one, Albus! Now, where did I stash my bag of lemondrops?" or he is thinking, "Ah, yes the socks of destiny! How I long to possess those! Why if could only have those socks, I could know/control/have power over X! That would be the day!" In other words: is this a joke or a clue? I left the mysteries of why Snape returned to the good side, and what DD meant when he said "in essence divided", off my list because I _do_ think we will learn these answers by the end of the series without JRK tinkering radically with the POV. (Yes, I know that Hermione's feelings probably fall in this category, too, but I want to know _now_!) :-) Anyone else, anyone? -Aleesahn From dolis5657 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 00:08:39 2004 From: dolis5657 at yahoo.com (dcgmck) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 00:08:39 -0000 Subject: James, Lily, Harry's protection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106607 In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "entropymail" wrote: > 1. Eihwaz rune: looks like a lightning bolt, stands for life, death, > rebirth, and protection. Curses are reflected off. > 2. Lily's wand was good for charms. Since James' wand was good for > transfiguration and he was talented at transfiguration, we can assume that since Lily's wand is good for charms, she is talented at charms. > 3. Lily performed Ancient Magic to protect Harry from Voldemort at > Godric's Hollow, which Voldie hadn't counted on. It is a charm that > could be sealed only with her death, with the sacrifice of her own life. > 4. No one seems to understand curse-scars: what they should look like, or even if there is such a thing, so we cannot assume that Harry's scar is from Voldie's AK curse gone wrong. > > From these facts, I think we might be able to put together a fairly > reasonable explanation of what happened at Godric's Hollow, how > Harry's scar came about, and how all of this relates to the eihwaz: > > Somehow, James and Lily realize that Voldemort has found out where > they are hiding. Knowing that there is no way out of this, Lily > decides to perform a protection charm on Harry, using her knowledge of > Ancient Magic. She performs the charm and Lily tricks Voldemort into > killing her first, before Harry ("No, not Harry! Kill me instead!"). > With this sacrifice of her own life, Harry's protection charm is > sealed. A rune of protection (eihwaz) is formed on Harry's forehead. > When Voldemort attempts to AK Harry, the curse is reflected off of > Harry. The rebound of this powerful curse causes devastation. Godric's Hollow is destroyed. Voldemort would have been killed as well, but because he has taken so many precautions against his own death, he is simply rendered a shadow of a human being, a ghostly non- dead self. > > Dumbledore may have recognized the eihwaz rune when he saw Harry's > scar for the first time, realizing the Ancient Magic behind it, and > that is why he decided to leave Harry "marked". He may not have been > sure it would protect Harry in the future, but he may have decided to leave it in case it's protection remained effective. > > So, does it bounce? So, Entropy, are you hypothesizing that Harry's lightning bolt is the result of an ancient charm rather than a scar from a deadly curse? Why, then, does the curse hurt when Harry and Voldemort share mental and/or emotional awareness? On the positive side, I like the idea that the charm Lily sets on Harry is a multi-part protection culminating in her death. It is reminiscent of the concept behind moat and castle construction. Additionally, it follows the model Dumbledore invokes on the Dursley household, which is sealed when Petunia accepts the onus of caretaker for her nephew. Thus each sister completes a magic ritual of protection through active acceptance of the responsibility and its attendant consequences. If you think about ancient magic that way, there is even a parallel in Voldemort's resurrection potion, which requires the bloody sacrifice of a willing volunteer: Wormtail's hand. The idea of a life for a life and literal blood debts and protection because of weregilds goes back through Norse and Anglo-Saxon literature, Greco-Roman mythology, and even Old Testament Biblical narratives. Unfortunately, all the examples coming to mind I'm fairly sure I'm misremembering... Jesus, of course, sheds his blood and in doing so redeems all of humanity from Satan. Anyway, in each case, an overt act of acceptance, whether of Lily's death or Petunia's guardianship, or some other overt act is required to complete the initiated magic. James, as a warrior, does not have the leisure time to set up anything so complex. He's busy buying Lily the time to set her charm, (her specialty), in motion. Who's to say, (besides JKR,) whether or not James did, in fact, put in his own two knuts on the charm before going to the front door to delay LV while Lily was putting on her finishing touches? From plinker at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 00:56:19 2004 From: plinker at yahoo.com (Plinker) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 00:56:19 -0000 Subject: We've been going in the wrong direction... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106608 The HBP...we have all made our statements about whom we think it will be. I got this theory from another board and want the gruop to think on this. Every book title has been the name of a challenge or threat of some sort to Harry. It also represents something, or someone totally new. Does this mean (HBP) a new challenge or threat to Harry from someone we haven't even heard from? Take this ball and run with it. From eldermomx3 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 16 22:12:20 2004 From: eldermomx3 at yahoo.com (eldermomx3) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 22:12:20 -0000 Subject: The Virtues of Hufflepuff House and Cedric Diggory (Was: Snape and . . .cour In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106609 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > > Once again, Hufflepuff stands apart. The other 3 Houses all chose a > noble metal as one of their colours (aren't they the 3 metals of the > medals given to the 3 winners of a sport competition ?). But > Hufflepuff just took black and yellow. Nothing noble. Could it be > another sign of the Hufflepuffs' humility ? They don't try to stand > out, they don't pride themselves on their accomplishments, unlike the > other 3 Houses. MJ Here: The first thing the Hufflepuff colors reminded me of was a Bee. Industrious, hard-working, but ready to sting if desturbed. -MJ From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sat Jul 17 01:37:20 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 01:37:20 -0000 Subject: Charm (sic) Protection Theory; Was (Re: James gave his life) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106611 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "entropymail" wrote: > 2. Lily's wand was good for charms. Since James' wand was good for > transfiguration and he was talented at transfiguration, we can assume that since Lily's wand is good for charms, she is talented at charms. > 3. Lily performed Ancient Magic to protect Harry from Voldemort at > Godric's Hollow, which Voldie hadn't counted on. It is a charm that > could be sealed only with her death, with the sacrifice of her own life. > So, does it bounce? > > :: Entropy :: Valky Yes absolutely Entropy, all the way into the street and I am so pleased I shall buy you a toad ;D I had always held that this was the way it happened, I do believe Lily was special and she evoked a powerful magic in this instance. One that only someone as beautiful as Lily could manage. Incedentally, I also posted on Charmes thread that Lily has eyes the same colour as Dobby, in vehement agreement, and I stand further to say that the evidence that backs this theory as much backs Charme's. Elf magic I vaguely recall, has been described as ancient and extraordinarily powerful, and this particular Charm called for its sealing in a selfless sacrifice which is also obviously an Elf like characteristic. Wondered if we have the makings of a solid prediction forming. What do you think? I have just reposted this and decided I should add the message number of Charme's PartElf!Lily post to help this all make some more sense. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/106298 From senderellabrat at aol.com Sat Jul 17 01:46:40 2004 From: senderellabrat at aol.com (theultimatesen) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 01:46:40 -0000 Subject: Don't the Death Eaters know that Snape's a spy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106612 Jenn wrote: At the end of Goblet of Fire, Voldemort summons the Death Eaters. They form a circle, and, while he doesn't mention him by name, Voldemort indicates that one of the six who are missing has left him forever and will, of course, be killed. Wouldn't Voldemort have told the remaining Death Eaters who it is who has left his service forever? Why hasn't an attempt been made on Snape's life? Snape admits to Harry that it is his job to know what Voldemort is telling his Death Eaters (Occlumency lesson, Order of the Phoenix) - are the Death Eaters feeding him bad information? Jen Me: First off, welcome aboard Jenn! I thought something alone the same lines last night while listening to OOTP on tape. I don't have my book on me right now, my friend borrowed it, so I'm going to try to go by memory here. I BELIEVE it's the scene at Grimmauld Place during Christmas break where Snape comes to talk to Harry about the Occlumency lessons. (That general area!) When Snape & Sirius are "going at each other" so to speak, I thought it was odd that Snape mentioned Lucius Malfoy recognizing Sirius at the platform. It seems to me as if Snape & Malfoy are still kind of chummy to some degree (whether it's real or a front). I mean, how else would Snape know Lucius recognized him? (Carol, I guess this sort of ties into our discussion off list) The whole thing really made me wonder about how Snape's really pulling it off. For one, he's head of Slytherin which means most of the kids in his house have/had parents who were Co-Death Eaters with Snape. Like I mentioned to Carol, I wondered if somehow Snape was *not* one of the 3 DE's Voldemort mentions in his GoF speech. For two, he seems to be... I don't know exactly how to put it... maybe partial to Draco (for lack of a better term) by never punishing him for the things HE'S pulled in class and in the corridors (The nice little teeth incident resulting in Hermione's newly fixed pearly whites). It *almost* seems to me as if he might be turning the other cheek (as opposed to showing favoritism) because Draco is a son of a friend. I really would like to know how he's managing to work for Dumblydore's side yet ... (I know it's not canon but the things we do know of... a couple examples I mentioned) he's still kind of friendly with the other side. I know this is an incomplete thought and I intend on persuing it further once I get home, but my husband is making a fuss about me getting ready to go. Sen From aleesahn at earthlink.net Sat Jul 17 01:42:25 2004 From: aleesahn at earthlink.net (aleesahn) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 01:42:25 -0000 Subject: We've been going in the wrong direction... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106614 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Plinker" wrote: > Every book title has been the name of a challenge or threat of >some sort to Harry. It also represents something, or someone >totally new. Does this mean (HBP) a new challenge or threat to >Harry from someone we haven't even heard from? Take this ball and >run with it. Aleesahn writes: This is a really interesting idea! Of course I have to point out that OoP breaks this pattern, as the title refers to a secret group on Harry's side- reinforcements/support he didn't know he had. Nevertheless, it seems like much of the posted HBP speculation has gone forward on the assumption that the HBP would be an ally to Harry. (With the exception of those posters who advocate for Snape as the HBP and who believe Snape to be _both_ a vampire and ESE!. An ESEVampireHBP!Snape would be no ally to Harry!) Maybe the assumption that the HBP would be an ally to Harry comes in b/c prejudice against half-bloods seems to go along with the dark arts- or at least with DE membership. A leader, or Prince, of half- bloods would naturally align with DD, Harry and the OoP against Voldy and company, right? But not necessarily, depending on the nature of the half-blood. Centaurs? Giants? Vampires? Werewolves? What would be a plausible guess for the HBP if we assume he/it is a threat to Harry? -Aleesahn From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 02:42:44 2004 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 19:42:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Prefects Who Gained Power In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040717024245.62216.qmail@web53409.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106615 In Chamber of Secrets, Percy's reading a book called "Prefects Who Gained Power: A study of Hogwarts prefects and their later careers"--I wonder if Lily is in this book... aboutthe1910s My reply: More than Lily I would wonder if Tom Riddle is in this book. Somehow, I just don't think Lily was all that powerful. I think she had power, and what not but I don't believe that a young woman in her twenties had enough power to already be listed in that book. Just my thought. ~Melanie --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From suzchiles at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 02:46:19 2004 From: suzchiles at yahoo.com (Suzanne Chiles) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 19:46:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Vanquishing Voldemort Message-ID: <20040717024619.4578.qmail@web40607.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106616 Saraquel makes a very interesting observation: > Which brings us on to the prophecy - Is the infamous, either neither > bit about LV and Riddle. I suspect that LV could not survive the room > in the DoM, but maybe Tom Riddle can? Interestingly, DD addresses > LV as Tom and in the duel at the end of HPOoP, he does not set out to > kill LV, to LV's surprise. Is Dumbledore on a mission to save LV from > himself? I think you're on to something important here. As Dumbledore says in OoTP: "We both know there are other ways of destroying a man, Tom ... Indeed, your failure to understand that has always been your greatest weakness." I am beginning to think that Dumbledore and/or Harry will find a way for Harry to kill Lord Voldemort, leaving merely a old, broken, Tom Riddle. In this way, Harry fulfills the prophecy but does not commit murder. Somehow, an ending like that would satisfy me. Of course, I've always thought that life imprisonment would be a much worse punishment for very serious crimes than being killed by the state. A time for the criminal to consider his/her foul deeds. Suzanne __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/ From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 02:53:55 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 19:53:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Locating Key Incidents In-Reply-To: <20040716172749.95420.qmail@web90104.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040717025355.82777.qmail@web53501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106617 Abigail Draconi wrote: This is not so much a theory, as a question. I am a fanfic writer who has recently been working with ideas about alternate histories and alternate time lines when it comes to Harry Potter; basically how changing one event in the 'past' effects events within the scope of cannon. The problem is, the further back the event I am changing is in the time line, the more at loose ends I become. It is not my intent to change the key incidents of the book (beyond the initial change that led to my work becoming an alternate history/time line), but to figure out how the change effected the key incident. Which leads me to a new problem and the reason I am posting this. I am having trouble figuring out which events are key incidents. What makes a particular event a key incident? And how do the various hints that JKR leaves throughout her novels play into them - or at least the idea that key incidents occur in Harry Potter? Do key incidents occur in the books? Or are they just not quite so ordinary events? ===== @---<-- Abby Okay, here goes (and this is by no means a complete list) SS/PS - Dursleys allowing Harry to stay, Harry becomes friends with Ron, Harry chooses not go to Slytherin, Harry goes after Neville's rememberall, going to warn Hermione, going down the trap door. CoS - Not telling Dooby what he wants to hear, taking the flying car, not telling DD about the voices he is hearing, going after Ginny moonmyyst...this is to get started with. I will send more along in a bit... I have to tuck puppies to bed and wash red dye out of my hair... planning to become a Weasley so my puppies can herd the gnomes!! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Jul 17 02:57:01 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 02:57:01 -0000 Subject: Sirius Luring Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106618 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > Snape believed Sirius' words of his own free will? If it is so, then he was an idiot, which even I doubt. > > Why does remus say -"of course Snape tried it?" Why is he so sure?< Heh-heh.Because Eversoevil!Lupin arranged the whole thing. (You knew I was going to say that) It's bad enough that Snape is watching the willow and it could be the end of the Marauder outings, the only thing that makes Lupin's transformations bearable. But what's even worse is that those reckless idiots James and Sirius aren't going to be put off by Snape. They'll take it as a challenge, they'll be sure to think they can sneak down to the willow whether Snape is watching it or not...and then they'll *all* be caught and expelled, or worse. Catastrophe! So Lupin manipulates Sirius into telling Snape the secret of the willow, and uses any of several means to get Snape to try it--imperius, a hotheadedness potion (is that too difficult for Lupin to make?) a confundus charm, who knows? But the point is, Lupin has nothing to lose. Even if he or Sirius is caught, it's still better than all four of them going down. If Lupin is caught with the body, nobody need know that Sirius had anything to do with it. If Sirius is found to have told Snape how to enter the willow, Lupin's role can remain secret. Sirius isn't likely to be expelled just for that--and they have the mirrors so they can get their stories straight. Snape's screams, emanating from the Shrieking Shack, will be ignored, and when it's all over, Lupin can transfigure the remains (if there are any, werewolves being what they are) and even if he's too weak to manage to clean up all the mess, there's usually blood and signs of a struggle after his transformations, because he bites and scratches himself. The perfect crime. No one will ever learn what happened to Snivellus. I can just see Lupin persuading himself that it's a noble thing he's doing, saving his friends from themselves. But James has to go and spoil it. Snape lives. Maybe he was enchanted, but the shock of seeing the werewolf would lift the spell, and everyone would think he was just trying to get the Marauders in trouble as usual, and cover up his own culpability. Snape was both out of bounds after dark and in a forbidden area --grounds for suspension at the very least. Dumbledore is prepared to overlook it, but he wants Snape's word that he won't tell anyone about Lupin and he won't go near the willow any more. Pippin From aboutthe1910s at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 00:06:31 2004 From: aboutthe1910s at yahoo.com (aboutthe1910s) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 00:06:31 -0000 Subject: Harry and Hagrid (was: Two Crazy Theories) In-Reply-To: <1d9.262d5407.2e29c107@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106619 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Batchevra at a... wrote: Charon is Firenze who Hagrid saved from the other Centaurs and is now teaching Divination at Hogwarts. Batchevra Does it make me hideously unintelligent if I don't understand why this makes Firenze Charon? Also, as far as Hagrid as Charon: As has been much discussed, it would seem (from this interview: http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/tv_film/newsid_3758000/3758101.stm) that there is a graveyard somewhere at Hogwarts. In the article, Cuaron implies that his idea to have the graveyard make an appearance is rejected, but this isn't entirely true, as has also already been pointed out by others--there is in fact a small cemetary in the background of the scene in POA where Lupin and Harry are walking around outside talking. The cemetary is on a small island in the lake. Now--and I would like to point out that I am probably reading more into this than should be even if Hagrid is very intentionally Charon--if this piece of information is correct (which it may not even be) then someone has to take the bodies over to this island and bury them, and that person would most likely be Hagrid... Which is sort of parallel to ferrying souls... a From starsspinning at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 01:59:11 2004 From: starsspinning at yahoo.com (star fall) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 18:59:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Snape warned James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040717015911.80373.qmail@web21206.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106620 aggiepaddy wrote: >> Having just read the Shrieking Shack scene in PoA again for the umpteenth time (it's one of my faves!) I noticed something that hadn't registered before. When Snape is shouting at Harry he says (Ch19 uk p265) '...You'd have died like your father, too arrogant *to believe* you might be mistaken in Black -...' (emphasis mine) To me it seems that Snape KNEW James had been warned about BLACK. What do you think? << Hi, this is my first post here, so I don't know when it will register. I've been thinking something along these lines myself. I think that Snape really cared about Lily, and that he owed James (the Whomping Willow). He tried but couldn't save Lily or James and now feels somewhat responsible for Harry, which may be a big part of why Dumbledore trusts Snape to help protect Harry and may also explain some of the loathing that Snape feels toward Harry. starsspinning From sad1199 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 02:31:13 2004 From: sad1199 at yahoo.com (sad1199) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 02:31:13 -0000 Subject: Book 6 question: Who will be the mentor for Harry ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106621 Paul wrote: > We have HP in OOTP learning from AD that he is destined to > kill or to be killed. > My immediate thought was how on earth HP will be trained to kill. sad1199 replies I don't think Harry has to learn the Dark Arts to defeat Voldemart. So, far he has beat Voldemart with intellect and love. We have learned that his mother's love and a stronger magic than wizards has protected Harry from death. We have also seen all of our heroes use cunning and brain power along with some very ordinary (in WW) spells to defeat the bad guys. I don't think that even if Harry is able to master Avada Kedavra he would be able to use it to kill Voldemart. So, I'm going with the way the story has gone so far, like so much in life, love and intelligence will conquer evil in the end. Of course, there will be some dramatic battles along the way... Have a Happy Love Filled Day, sad1199 From tinainfay at msn.com Sat Jul 17 02:42:23 2004 From: tinainfay at msn.com (mrs_sonofgib) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 02:42:23 -0000 Subject: James gave his life, why no protection from him? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106622 In message 106597, Entropy wrote: > Somehow, James and Lily realize that Voldemort has found out where > they are hiding. Knowing that there is no way out of this, Lily > decides to perform a protection charm on Harry, using her knowledge > of Ancient Magic. She performs the charm and Lily tricks Voldemort > into killing her first, before Harry. > With this sacrifice of her own life, Harry's protection charm is > sealed. A rune of protection (eihwaz) is formed on Harry's > forehead. > Dumbledore may have recognized the eihwaz rune when he saw Harry's > scar for the first time, realizing the Ancient Magic behind it, and > that is why he decided to leave Harry "marked". He may not have been > sure it would protect Harry in the future, but he may have decided > to leave it in case its protection remained effective. That is quite a theory there Entropy. I like it alot. It is truly a beautiful picture. But I have a question or two. From my reading, I came to understand that the scar was where Voldemort marked Harry (as his equal). In OOtP chapter 37, pp 826-827, DD says "I guessed fifteen years ago, when I saw the scar upon your forehead, what it might mean. I guessed that it might be the sign of connection forged between you and Voldemort." Then on p 843 DD goes on to say "You are forgetting the next part of the prophecy, the final identifying feature of the boy who could vanquish Voldemort.... Voldemort himself would 'mark him as his equal.' And so he did, Harry. He chose you, not Neville. He gave you the scar that has proved both blessing and curse." It seems clear that Voldemort gave him the scar and not Lily. Now, I do not think it's a coincidence that it is lightning-shaped (back to the eihwaz rune) but... Well, I'm not sure if I actually asked a question... Food for thought, I suppose. ~tina From dontask2much at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 02:54:15 2004 From: dontask2much at yahoo.com (charme) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 22:54:15 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Charm (sic) Protection Theory; Was (Re: James gave his life) References: Message-ID: <014a01c46ba9$5986fb80$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> No: HPFGUIDX 106623 > Valky: > I have just reposted this and decided I should add the message > number of Charme's PartElf!Lily post to help this all make some more > sense. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/106298 charme: I have another question I'm researching about this, too. I'm trying to figure out what the SHAPE of the eye (it's always referred to in canon as "almond") has to do with all of this as well. Stephen King, who reviewed OoP in the LA Times (he loves JKR, and has used the "Golden Snitch" in his Dark Tower series,) chided her somewhat for her overuse of adjectives in her writing. I'm not sure if this is a significant clue or not.... Anyone got any ideas? charme From patientx3 at aol.com Sat Jul 17 03:26:37 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 03:26:37 -0000 Subject: The Virtues of Hufflepuff House and Cedric Diggory (Was: Snape and . . .cour In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106624 Valky wrote: >> I agree with Jen that JKR probably intends for us to look beyond Harry and his POV to see thing as they are. An example that comes to mind is Ravenclaw. [snip] Ravenclaw was before Luna, to me, a place where logic and rational process ruled where the power of the *left brain* was all important, leaving me to wonder why Hermione was never sorted there. Luna and even Cho and Marietta have rewritten Ravenclaw for me in OOtP. Luna is *wise* and THINKS *way too much*, Cho also thinks! thinks! thinks! this is apparent by her constant nostalgia about Cedric, and even Marietta when she turns on the DA is probably projecting thought herself which causes her to fear the consequences, there wasn't really any other reason for her to tell was there? << HunterGreen: You know, I always assumed Ravenclaw was a house of logic as well, and while reading OotP, Luna confused me briefly in that regard, but I pushed it aside. Your interpretation fits quite well though. She's often thinking so much that she gets lost in her own little world. And thinking too much easily leads to either that or obsessing, which fits perfectly with Cho and Marietta. Actually it fits with Hermione too, which is a strong reason for the hat to consider putting her there. Valky: >> Just an extra bit of rambling food for thought... All candidates have virtues that would fit more than one house. By a process of elimination I ruled myself out of Hufflepuff just now. << HunterGreen: I think most people would fit into more than one house. (I started all these ruminations on Hufflepuff after wondering which house *I* would be in because I find loyalty and fair play more important than the other values the houses put up...but I'm also a natural over- thinker). I got to thinking about Voldemort, and oddly enough since Slytherin is supposed to be the opposite of it, he has a few Hufflepuff-ish qualities. -Loyalty: He certainly values that very much. Its loyalty or death as far as his DE's go, and he's quite pleased with those who were loyal to him (very few, but that's what he gets for picking so many people from Slytherin). -Hard Work: It would be hard to accuse the guy of being lazy. All of his rather odd 'transformations' he went through while learning in the dark arts aside, in the beginning of GoF, we see him determined to use Harry Potter for his re-birthing spell, despite HOW much more complicated it makes things. Peter even suggests they use someone else, but he wants Harry, who was of course the best choice. -Fair play: Now here's where the snag is. Voldemort is just about the clear-cut opposite of being a person who values or cares about fair play. I very much doubt the hat even considered Hufflepuff (even if he wasn't the heir of Slytherin), because of this stark difference in values. However, though, since others in the series have been shaped and changed by the house they were in (Neville, Hermione, and Sirius, come to mind), I wonder if being in Hufflepuff would have had a difference on Voldemort's personality? (probably not, but its fun to speculate). As for the other houses, I don't think he fits. Ravenclaw doesn't work, because Voldemort tends not to think things out very well. Upon hearing Lily ask him to take her instead, he doesn't stop to think that might be a trap, or why on earth she'd would be stupid enough to think that'd work. He doesn't consider the ancient magic, simply because he doesn't like it, certainly not the best thinking skills. He does this again in the graveyard, letting his arrogance take over, rather than just killing Harry. An obsessed enough mind would think of a hundred things that could go wrong in that situation. The only time this really fits is in OotP, when his main goal is to get the prophecy. But, you know, everyone gets obsessed sometimes. I don't really see him as a Gryffindor either. Not only is he seriously afraid of death, he was always too afraid to attack Hogwarts, and was always afraid of Dumbledore as well. I'm not saying that Gryffindor's don't have fear, but conquering fear is a part of being courageous. (Emotionally) Voldemort hasn't really conquered anything. The things he acheived were not things he had to risk anything to achieve. They took hard work, yes, but not facing fear. Harry has done this on numerous occasions, so have Ron and Hermione and Neville. (or the twins continuing to do their experiments even after their mother--a person all the Weasleys fear--told them not to, or Percy standing up for his beliefs to his family). Voldemort is sort of a coward really, even his fight with Harry in GoF was structured so that if Harry somehow managed to win (by hitting Voldemort with a stupify for example), there were plenty of DE's around to finish the job for him. He has to trick Harry into getting the prophecy because he doesn't want to risk getting it for himself, and he appears away from where the aurors are, and then resorts to possesing Harry during his battle with Voldemort. He's not the least bit courageous. From drliss at comcast.net Sat Jul 17 02:54:45 2004 From: drliss at comcast.net (Lissa Hess) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 22:54:45 -0400 Subject: Sirius Luring Snape In-Reply-To: <1090014290.17542.52553.m21@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20040716225015.01da30f8@mail.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 106625 HunterGreen: >Except that Sirius *still* doesn't feel remorseful for his actions. >In PoA he sneers about it, commenting that it 'served Snape right'. >Now I don't think that he actually wanted to *kill* Snape, I just >think that he doesn't get how serious what he did was. > >However, I do think the prank might have been a turning point for >James. It may very well have been what made James >grow up, too bad it didn't have the same effect on Sirius... Dead on. I just want to believe Sirius grew up some. ::sigh:: Like a lot of people, his and James' attitude in the pensieve was totally repellent to me... probably because I have a fair guess at how Snape feels! I still think he might have learned a bit from that, not necessarily in regards to Snape but in regards to Lupin. But again, that's total wishful thinking. (Might be true- he does seem more sensitive to Lupin in OotP than he did in the pensieve, but that might just be general maturity and his friends whacking him upside the head enough times instead of a climatic turning point.) I think you make an excellent point about James though! Lissa From dontask2much at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 02:56:59 2004 From: dontask2much at yahoo.com (charme) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 22:56:59 -0400 Subject: James, Lily, Harry's protection References: Message-ID: <015501c46ba9$bb1be8b0$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> No: HPFGUIDX 106626 Entropy wrote: > > 1. Eihwaz rune: looks like a lightning bolt, stands for life, death, > > rebirth, and protection. Curses are reflected off. charme: While that's true, I read where JKR was asked this during an interview or chat, and she said it wasn't the shape that was significant. I'll try to find where she said it.... charme From tinainfay at msn.com Sat Jul 17 03:17:47 2004 From: tinainfay at msn.com (mrs_sonofgib) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 03:17:47 -0000 Subject: Did James and Lily know about the prophecy? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106627 In a long-lost thread, someone (I think Wolfie_musician) was wondering about Lily's last thoughts. Worrying about her baby boy and how to save him and mentioned that he was the One prophesied about. I had never thought that J&L knew about the prophecy? Did I miss something (quite possible...)? Thanks, tina From marnyhelfrich at comcast.net Sat Jul 17 03:35:50 2004 From: marnyhelfrich at comcast.net (Marny Helfrich) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 23:35:50 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pureblood Vs. Halfblood Vs Fullblood References: Message-ID: <042401c46baf$28353140$8e2f8c45@mynewputer> No: HPFGUIDX 106628 Steve/asian_lovr2 said: >But if a Squib marries a magical person, the >likelihood that they will > produce non-magical children is extremely thin. You have magical genes > on both sides of the family, even though, you only have magic on one > side. And I (Marny) wonder: Do we know this from the books, or is this your (very reasonable) assumption? We don't know of any Squibs with children from the books, right? (It occurs to me, though, that both the known Squibs have cats. Do you think there is anything to that?) Clearly, magic doesn't follow the inheritence patterns of Mendelian genetics! This discussion got me thinking about the relative prevelance of folks with different types of heritage in the books. I'm adopting Steve's use of "full-blood" to describe a magical person with two magical parents (rather than pureblood, which I agree is political and subjective) So, we have: full-blood witches and wizards: Harry, Ron (and all the Weasley sibs), Sirius, James, Neville, Draco, Ernie Macmillan, Barty Crouch Sr. & Jr. muggle-born w & w: Hermione, Lily, Dennis and Collin Creevey, Justin Finch-Fletchly, Penelope Clearwater (by implication) note: Ron says "Loads of people come from Muggle Families" (SS, Chapter 6, The Journey from Platform Nine and 3/4, pg. 100 Scholastic American). half-and-halfs (one parent a wizard/witch, one a muggle) Seamus Finnegan, Dean Thomas (per JKR's website, but he doesn't know it), Tom Riddle, Tonks Cedric and Luna are both known to have one magical parent, with the other not specified mixed-blood (one parent a wizard/witch, one a nonhuman magical creature): Hargid, Madame Maxime, Fleur delaCoeur Squibs Filch, Mrs. Figg, Molly's second cousin the accountant Unknown (at least to me, but maybe I missed something!): all the teachers; molly, arthur, Lupin, Peter Pettigrew, Lavender, Parvati, Cho, Vicktor Crum, So, by numbers of mentions, it seems like full-bloods predominant in the Wizarding world, followed by muggle-borns. The relevance of this, I don't know, but I thought it was somewhat interesting. Marny From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 03:37:00 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 20:37:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Charm (sic) Protection Theory; Was (Re: James gave his life) In-Reply-To: <014a01c46ba9$5986fb80$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> Message-ID: <20040717033700.91302.qmail@web53501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106629 charme wrote: I have another question I'm researching about this, too. I'm trying to figure out what the SHAPE of the eye (it's always referred to in canon as "almond") has to do with all of this as well. Stephen King, who reviewed OoP in the LA Times (he loves JKR, and has used the "Golden Snitch" in his Dark Tower series,) chided her somewhat for her overuse of adjectives in her writing. I'm not sure if this is a significant clue or not.... Anyone got any ideas? charme In one of her interviews, when asked about the color of Harry's eyes being important, JKR replied that it was not the color that was the important thing. Maybe you are on to something here. Does it say anything about the eyes tipping up or down or just as almond shaped? moonmyyst --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stargaz77 at aol.com Fri Jul 16 23:10:21 2004 From: stargaz77 at aol.com (celestina707) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 23:10:21 -0000 Subject: Vanquishing Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106630 > Celestina: > > There was a thread recently about the prophecy at the end of > > OofP, in which "one has to die at the HAND of the other", which > > can be interpreted as Harry needing to vanquish Voldemort with > > his hands, and not his wand, as we know that priori incantatem > > will be a problem again if they duel once more. I thought it was > > a brilliant idea, btw. "dcgmck" wrote: > You emphasize "Hand". Could that mean that Peter Pettigrew might > repay his debt to Harry by using the silver hand Voldemort gave him > to destroy the former's master? That would make for an interesting > twist while taking the brother wands completely out of the equation... No, that's not quite the take on the "hand" theory. I have cut and pasted the original post so you can decide for yourself what the prophecy could mean: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/104510 From: "Justine" Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 10:39 pm Subject: Harry LIVES! (was: prophecy wording) Carole: "either must die at the HAND of the other" Justine responds: Wow! This sounds silly, but I've never read it with that emphasis before, and it seems to make all the difference in the world! So, the prophecy (which was worded carefully by Trelawney and JKR) states that "either must die at the HAND (emphasis Carole's) of the other." This brings me back to Dumbledore's look of triumph in GoF. It is only after Harry tells him that Voldemort touched his, Harry's, face, that Dumbledore's face takes on this expression. Voldemort was, consequently, happy that touching Harry's face does not harm him. What he fails to realize, however, is that Harry is left unharmed as well. Harry does feel pain, but his head is already aching from the scar, and the scar gives Harry pain whenever Voldemort experiences emotion, the intensity of the pain varying with the intensity of the emotion. Imagine the strength of Voldemort's happiness when realizing (incorrectly) that Harry's touch will not kill him! Harry is not hurt, *certainly* not killed, from the touch of Voldemort's hand. Dumbledore is triumphant because *Harry did not die at Voldemort's HAND* and therefore Voldemort must be vulnerable to the touch of Harry's HAND, and not his FACE or any other part of his body. We've already seen Quirrell die because of contact with Harry's hands--that isn't just movie contamination, is it? Perhaps Dumbledore now knows that, according to the prophecy, Harry cannot be killed by Voldemort. Then, logically, Harry is the one with the fatal touch! Perhaps I'm only trying to comfort myself with this "evidence" for Harry's survival... Justine From mingnutz at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 02:16:02 2004 From: mingnutz at yahoo.com (mingnutz) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 02:16:02 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's House? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106631 Maybe you guys have already gone over this but I was wondering, if only pure bloods are allowed into Slytherin then what house was Tom Riddle in? "mingnutz" From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sat Jul 17 03:51:18 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 03:51:18 -0000 Subject: Charm (sic) Protection Theory; Was (Re: James gave his life) In-Reply-To: <20040717033700.91302.qmail@web53501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106632 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, K G wrote: > > > charme wrote: > > I have another question I'm researching about this, too. I'm trying to figure out what the SHAPE of the eye (it's always referred to in canon as "almond") has to do with all of this as well. > > charme > > In one of her interviews, when asked about the color of Harry's eyes being important, JKR replied that it was not the color that was the important thing. > > moonmyyst > Valky: Sorry myst I need to contradict you here. Two quotes from JKR on these links indicate that JKR has not yet ruled out the possibility that it is the colour of Lily/Harry's eyes that is significant. Of course, I may be missing the one you mention but I tried to find it and couldn't. If you can remember where to find it please paste the link for me. Thanks. I think the color of Harry's eyes will matter in the books to come. Yes? Hmmmm... maybe! http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2000/1000-aol-chat.htm Do you know what Harry's parents look like? "Yes. I've even drawn a picture of how they look. Harry has his father and mother's good looks. But he has his mother's eyes and that's very important in a future book." http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/1999/1099-bostonglobe- loer.html From plinker at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 03:12:12 2004 From: plinker at yahoo.com (Bill) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 20:12:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: We've been going in the wrong direction... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040717031213.5582.qmail@web41201.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106633 Aleesahn writes: > This is a really interesting idea! Of course I have to point out > that OoP breaks this pattern, as the title refers to a secret group > on Harry's side- reinforcements/support he didn't know he had. > > Nevertheless, it seems like much of the posted HBP speculation has > gone forward on the assumption that the HBP would be an ally to > Harry. Someone totally new or barely mentioned. Each book brings a new title and the title brings a new subject. I know this sounds goofy, but even OoP was new and presented a challenge as Harry was kept ignorant of what was going on and has to really struggle to find out what was the group was up to. Bill From hpfgu_elves at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jul 17 03:53:57 2004 From: hpfgu_elves at yahoo.co.uk (hpfgu_elves) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 03:53:57 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Off-Topic Threads Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106634 Esteemed List Muggles: The following threads currently thriving on the list are off-topic and will therefore be moved to HPfGU-OTChatter: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hpfgu-otchatter/ ? The pronunciation of words, word origins, US/UK linguistic differences, US/UK edition discrepancies ? "Which Limited PoV Series Has The Most Characters" Thank you for your attention. --HPfGU List Elves From tinainfay at msn.com Sat Jul 17 03:46:50 2004 From: tinainfay at msn.com (mrs_sonofgib) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 03:46:50 -0000 Subject: Pureblood Vs. Halfblood Vs Fullblood (Cedric and Luna) In-Reply-To: <042401c46baf$28353140$8e2f8c45@mynewputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106635 > Steve/asian_lovr2 said: > But if a Squib marries a magical person, the likelihood that > they will produce non-magical children is extremely thin. You > have magical genes on both sides of the family, even though, > you only have magic on one side. > > Marny wrote: > We don't know of any Squibs with children from the books, right? > > Cedric and Luna are both known to have one magical parent, with > the other not specified Both of Cedric's parents were present for the Tri-Wizard so aren't both Mr. and Mrs. Diggory magical (I may be assuming too much)? Also, Luna's mom was a witch (her final spell went 'rather wrong') and her dad runs the Quibbler. Definitely both magical. That would make them full-bloods. ~tina From marnyhelfrich at comcast.net Sat Jul 17 03:38:10 2004 From: marnyhelfrich at comcast.net (Marny Helfrich) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 23:38:10 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Did James and Lily know about the prophecy? References: Message-ID: <042a01c46baf$7bc1be00$8e2f8c45@mynewputer> No: HPFGUIDX 106637 Tina wondered: > In a long-lost thread, someone (I think Wolfie_musician) was > wondering about Lily's last thoughts. Worrying about her baby boy > and how to save him and mentioned that he was the One prophesied > about. I had never thought that J&L knew about the prophecy? Did I > miss something (quite possible...)? > I (Marny) wonder this, too. I also wonder if Frank and Alice Longbottom knew, if Neville's grandmother knows, and if Neville knows. I think it's possible that Neville knows. He kept quiet about his parents for all that time; he could have kept quiet about this as well! Marny From jakejensen at hotmail.com Sat Jul 17 04:42:23 2004 From: jakejensen at hotmail.com (jakedjensen) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 04:42:23 -0000 Subject: James gave his life, why no protection from him? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106638 I have always liked the idea that the scar is the lightning rune, but didn't JKR actually say that it was the location not the shape of the scar that mattered? I seem to remember that in an interview somewhere....which suggests that trying to decipher the scar might not be the right path to take.... Jake From dicentra at xmission.com Sat Jul 17 05:26:02 2004 From: dicentra at xmission.com (Dicentra spectabilis) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 05:26:02 -0000 Subject: Alchemy in HP and Stoned!Harry (was: Harry and Hagrid ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106639 Waaaaay back in post 38511, before John Granger's article and OoP were available, we had some fun with our limited alchemical knowledge. In a nutshell, we determined that the reason Voldemort's AK rebounded was that Harry is the living embodiment of the Philosopher's Stone. At Nimbus 2003, I asked Granger why he thought the AK rebounded, and he said it was Lily's love. However, I'm pretty sure he's wrong about that: Harry kept saying he didn't know why even after Dumbledore's Voyage To Backstory Land at the end of Book 1. Anyway, I recommend the Stoned!Harry thread for the sheer fun of it (not just because I'm in it). --Dicentra From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sat Jul 17 05:33:16 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 05:33:16 -0000 Subject: Charm (sic) Protection Theory; Was (Re: James gave his life) In-Reply-To: <014a01c46ba9$5986fb80$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106640 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "charme" wrote: > > Valky: > > I have just reposted this and decided I should add the message > > number of Charme's PartElf!Lily post to help this all make some more sense. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/106298 > > > charme: > > I have another question I'm researching about this, too. I'm trying to figure out what the SHAPE of the eye (it's always referred to in canon as "almond") has to do with all of this as well. I'm not sure if this is a significant clue or not.... > > Anyone got any ideas? > > charme Valky: Hi Charme, I did a little hunting and I have discovered that the almond Shape has actually a *lot* of pagan/celt (ie witches and wizards) significance. The almond shape is formed by the overlapping of two circles and is a hugely universal symbol in mysticism. It has been more recently adopted as a christian symbol of christ, but it also relates to cabbalistic mysticism as well as pagan (and others according to these resources I investigated). It is called, apparently according to the resource that I have, the Mandorla, a latin word for Almond and one thing it signifies is a Halo. Are Lily's Eyes something like Angels? Whatever they are the Almond shape definitely denotes that they are in some way sacred or holy. I'll just leave you with that and see what your *obsessed loon* can come up with ;D LOL From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 06:24:52 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 06:24:52 -0000 Subject: Vanquishing Voldemort - The Ultimate Punishment In-Reply-To: <20040717024619.4578.qmail@web40607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106641 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Suzanne Chiles wrote: > ...edited... > > I am beginning to think that Dumbledore and/or Harrywill find a way > for Harry to kill Lord Voldemort, leaving merely a old, broken, Tom > Riddle. > > In this way, Harry fulfills the prophecy but does not commit murder. > > Somehow, an ending like that would satisfy me. Of course, I've > always thought that life imprisonment would be a much worse > punishment for very serious crimes than being killed by the state. > A time for the criminal to consider his/her foul deeds. > > Suzanne Asian_lovr2: Here is the ultimate punishment for Voldemort. To be immortal, stripped of his powers, and imprisoned. Immortality sounds good, but forever is such a long time. For Voldemort/Riddle it would be century after century of no where to go, nothing to do, just endless wasted hours passing by for eternity. Plus, living forever, doesn't mean being young forever, or being in good health forever, or being of sound mind forever. Earthly immortality is highly overrated. It's almost too cruel to wish on someone. Just a thought. Steve/asian_lovr2 From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 06:41:37 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 06:41:37 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's House? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106642 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mingnutz" wrote: > Maybe you guys have already gone over this but I was wondering, if > only pure bloods are allowed into Slytherin then what house was Tom > Riddle in? > > "mingnutz" Asian_lovr2: Slytherin House. While Slytherin may have had a strong prejudice in favor of Purebloods, he was not necessarily radically against mixed-bloods. What he didn't like was muggles and muggle-born because he didn't trust muggles, and given the times in which he lived (the middle ages), he had very justifiable reasons for not trusting them. I think that modern 'Pureblood' witches and wizards have perverted and twisted Slytherin actual beliefs to fit their own agenda. Just as Christains old and new have twisted Christian beliefs to justify their own prejudices, and just as extremest Muslim are twisting their religion to suit their own self-serving needs. If you only look at the information on Slytherin's break from the school, you see that it was about not trusting muggles. It's illogical to think the other three founders would have been his friend if he fit the extremest pureblood radical marginally pschotic fanatic that later self-serving generations of purebloods have made him out to be. I'm convinced Slytherin House give preference to ambitious cunning pureblood, but if you are a mixed blood and you are still sufficiently cunning and ambitious, then your in. Just a few thoughts. Steve/asian_lovr2 From patientx3 at aol.com Sat Jul 17 07:30:49 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 07:30:49 -0000 Subject: Don't the Death Eaters know that Snape's a spy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106643 Jenn wrote: >>> At the end of Goblet of Fire, Voldemort summons the Death Eaters. They form a circle, and, while he doesn't mention him by name, Voldemort indicates that one of the six who are missing has left him forever and will, of course, be killed. Wouldn't Voldemort have told the remaining Death Eaters who it is who has left his service forever? Why hasn't an attempt been made on Snape's life? <<< Sen replied: >> It seems to me as if Snape & Malfoy are still kind of chummy to some degree (whether it's real or a front). I mean, how else would Snape know Lucius recognized him? [snip] I wondered if somehow Snape was *not* one of the 3 DE's Voldemort mentions in his GoF speech. << HunterGreen: This has been debated back and forth many times, and many theories have been thrown around as to who those two death eaters are. Personally, I've always had same belief since I read GoF the first time. Snape is 'the one who left forever'. Why shouldn't it be the obvious answer in this case? There's been nothing really to refute that. As proof I offer all the hints that Snape is now spying on the DE's (the request he makes on Snape at the end of GoF, and Snape's non-denial of this fact when Harry says it during the Occulmency lessons). Of course, this is not absolute proof, but its all speculation anyway. This begs a question though: How did Snape get back into the fold when Voldemort believes he left forever and is planning to kill him? Its always seemed rather simple, Snape appeared later that night (the dark mark must be some sort of homing mechanism, perhaps it was still strong enough for Snape to find him hours later), and explained himself. Voldemort's remark about Snape always seemed less angry than the one about the one 'too cowardly to return', (about that, I wonder if he did something that was the reason Snape turned his back on the DEs, and Voldemort is not surprised that he left) thus it seems reasonable that Snape had at least a shot at getting himself back into the DE circle. For one thing, Snape certainly was not in a position to just take off out of the school and run off to a Death Eater meeting when the dark mark appeared, and Voldemort knew that. Barty Jr. isn't there either for the same reason. Another thing is that its very helpful for Voldemort to have a DE in Hogwarts, keeping an eye on Dumbledore. He may have tortured Snape, or demanded something of him (perhaps using Legimency? which we all know wouldn't matter with Snape). As for Snape's relationship with Lucius and Draco, I don't there's anything fake about it. I think despite his position as a spy, Snape is still (and has been) friends with Lucius. There's a good chance that Lucius was a member of that "Slytherin gang" Snape was said to have belonged to (and being several years older, he may have been a menter figure for Snape; in fact according to Sirius he was Lucius' "lapdog", which may be a reference to some sort of adulation on Snape's part). Lucius also appears to like Snape as well. According to Umbridge (don't know the chapter number offand, but it was toward to end of the book), Lucius speaks quite highly of Snape. From omphale at onetel.com Sat Jul 17 07:26:47 2004 From: omphale at onetel.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 07:26:47 -0000 Subject: Lily's sacrifice, was (James gave his life, why no protection from him?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106644 Saraquel suggested (106592)that the priori incantatem indicates that the only spell from LVs wand killed Lily, scarred Harry and rebounded on Voldemort. Which leaves the question as to how Harry got the scar, if not directly from the curse. Entropy throws in (paraphrased) Lily performed a charm to protect Harry sealed by her death which caused the scar. > > Dumbledore may have recognized the eihwaz rune when he saw Harry's > > scar for the first time, realizing the Ancient Magic behind it, and > > that is why he decided to leave Harry "marked". > Tina questions > I came to understand that the scar was where Voldemort > marked Harry (as his equal). > > In OOtP chapter 37, pp 826-827, DD says "I guessed fifteen years > ago, when I saw the scar upon your forehead, what it might mean. I > guessed that it might be the sign of connection forged between you > and Voldemort." Saraquel responds: The wording of this bit could very well support Entropy's theory, which I like very much. The scar is not a mark made by LV, but a sign reminding of Lily's sacrifice which was perhaps burned (forged) into his skin by the power of LVs curse. Tina also says: > Then on p 843 DD goes on to say "You are forgetting the next part of > the prophecy, the final identifying feature of the boy who could > vanquish Voldemort.... Voldemort himself would 'mark him as his > equal.' And so he did, Harry. He chose you, not Neville. He gave > you the scar that has proved both blessing and curse." > > It seems clear that Voldemort gave him the scar and not Lily. Now, Saraquel continues: I do agree, that at first sight this would seem to indicate something more direct. However, the scar on Harry's forhead only came into being because LV cursed Lily, so he did do it even though he didn't realise at the time that was what he was doing. To take things further, what does it mean to say LV MARKED H as his equal. It can be taken as a literal thing, as in his scar. But it is also possible to interpret (this is a use of the word in England and quite probably elsewhere I don't know) the meaning of MARK to be 'to realise' as in 'Mark my words'. Now that's something LV hasn't done yet. At the end of GoF he most definitely sees Harry as his inferior. But tha's starting a whole new discussion..... From srae1971 at bellsouth.net Sat Jul 17 05:59:33 2004 From: srae1971 at bellsouth.net (Shannon) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 01:59:33 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Percy...was Ron's "poor me" syndrome. In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.1.6.1.20040715203758.00cede18@mail.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.1.20040717012420.00cb8af0@mail.bellsouth.net> No: HPFGUIDX 106645 >Del says: > >Percy is *not* the reflective kind. He does *not* wonder why people do >things. He sees people do things and he automatically jumps to the >most logical conclusion. So when he sees DD pretend that LV has >returned but he, Percy, can see no sign of LV, he automatically agrees >with Fudge who says that DD has lost his marbles. > >Should Percy think more ? Yes. But he wouldn't be Percy anymore. I suppose so. But it bothers me that Percy aligned himself against his family after a lifetime of nothing but support and praise from his parents, after four years of knowing Harry and having at least some idea of what went on with him (especially when his own sister was involved), and only one year of employment in a job where his boss couldn't even be bothered to remember his proper name. Admittedly, I never much liked Percy. He never quite felt like a Weasley to me. All the traits that are common in the others never seemed very visible in Percy. I mean, he couldn't even be bothered to go see his father, who almost DIED. And why? Because he didn't want to be held by being associated with the Weasleys and, by extension, Dumbledore. I find that very hard to forgive, especially based as it was on the one moment in Percy's life when his parents were not 100% supportive. Shannon [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From n2fgc at arrl.net Sat Jul 17 08:38:57 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 04:38:57 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] On Fawkes and the Forest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106646 From: coderaspberry77 | Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 09:48 | First, and I know this has been discussed before, but it just seems | to me that Fawkes is REALLY smart for a bird. I mean, we know | Hedwig is smart for an owl, but during the battle with the | Basilisk/Riddle, Fawkes knows exactly what Harry needs at exactly | the right moment - very complex thought processes for, let's face | it, a bird. | Smart bird. VERY smart. My question - are magical creatures always | that intelligent (they don't ALWAYS seem that way - Skrewts :) ), is | it just phoenixes that are that bright, or is Fawkes something | more? I really liked the "Fawkes could be Gryffindor" theory posted | not long ago, though I don't necessarily believe it. [Lee]: Phoenixes live a long time with many a rebirth. I tend toward the belief that 1) they are extremely intelligent and 2) they possibly retain memory from their experiences throughout their lifetimes. So, even after a burning and rebirth, their memory of all that was is still intact. Taking this continuous memory along with magical intelligence, yes, Fawkes is one smart bird. :-) Cheers, Lee :-) (Who wouldn't mind having a Phoenix as a pet but doesn't love the idea of shedding feathers and such for her allergies.) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me; | n2fgc at arrl.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Sat Jul 17 09:22:57 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 17 Jul 2004 09:22:57 -0000 Subject: Subject: Roots of 'Avada Kevadra' (Was: Vanquishing Voldemort) Message-ID: <20040717092257.6537.qmail@webmail30.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106647 >> Now Aggie: >> On a side line, does anyone else think that 'Avada Kedavra' is >> JKR's 'version' of Abracadabra? It's sounds remarkably like it to >> me >> and I find that quite an eerie thought!!! Amey: ABRACADABRA [A] Let me wave my wand ... It?s ancient, first mentioned in a poem by Quintus Serenus Sammonicus in the second century AD. It is believed to have come into English via French from a Greek word abrasadabra (the change from s to c seems to have been through a confused transliteration of the Greek). It originated as a secret and mystical word with a Gnostic sect in Alexandria called the Basilidians (named after their founder Basilides of Egypt). It was probably based on Abrasax, the name of their supreme deity (Abraxas in Latin sources), but is sometimes said to have been constructed from the initial letters of three Hebrew Words: Ab, the father, Ben, the son, and Acadsch, the holy spirit. It was used as a charm, written in the shape of a triangle on a piece of parchment worn round the neck, and was believed to have the power to cure toothaches, malaria and other scourges. And Abraxas itself was said to have magical powers of its own, as a word that represented the number of days in the year, 365. This was derived by adding up the numerical values of its seven Greek letters by a process called gematria. For this reason, it was often engraved on amulets and precious stones. "Killing Curse" Aramaic: "adhadda kedhabhra" - "let the thing be destroyed". NOTE: Abracadabra is a cabbalistic charm in Judaic mythology that is supposed to bring healing powers. One of its sources is believed to be from Aramaic avada kedavra, another is the Phoenician alphabet (a-bra-ca-dabra). Amey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat Jul 17 09:43:05 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 09:43:05 -0000 Subject: Life Debts to Harry In-Reply-To: <20040716150334.21586.qmail@web25308.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106648 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, udder_pen_dragon wrote: > > I was doing some digging and this thought struck me. > We know that Wormtail ows Harry a life debt from PoA > Does Ginny from the CoS > And do: Snape, Ron and Hermione From the Dementors in PoA. > > I did not include Sirius because he is dead, although JKR has said some funny things about Sirisus's death. > > If Dudley were the late developing magic user would he immediatly owe Harry a life debt? > I think we should be a bit careful around this 'life debt' stuff. We may be making far too much of it IMO. Consider - the phrase 'life debt' does not appear in the text; it's an invention of Fandom (as is 'the Prank'), a useful, but possibly misleading bit of shorthand. Snape hates being beholden to James; but that's mostly because he hates James in the first place. From Snapes point of view having the person you despise save your life is totally unforgivable. It cramps your plans for getting even. It gives Sevvy a double reason for hating James - the original offences plus being expected to show gratitude for the rescue. Snape is livid about it and according to DD "wants to go back to hating him in peace." Peter and Harry now have "a certain bond" according to DD. The way 'life debt' is discussed on site one would expect Peter to be obliged to expunge the debt asap. Not so. Peter has already had a chance to do so and hasn't - in the graveyard. Harry was bound and helpless and if Peter had helped him Voldy would have been unable to do anything about it, being totally helpless himself. But he doesn't. Good for the plot, bad for the concept of 'life debt'. Harry apparently 'helped' Peter by persuading Sirius and/or Lupin not to kill him out of hand. But Harry didn't intend him to go free; if he'd had his way Peter would have spent eternity in Azkaban. Is that something to be obsessively grateful about? IMO Peter may, probably will, help Harry (JKR has hinted as much in the way DD comments on the episode), but I doubt he'd put his own life or well-being on the line to do so. As for Ginny, Dudders, etc. No, Harry was busy saving his own life at the time; their survival was incidental to and a consequence of his own survival. Kneasy From n2fgc at arrl.net Sat Jul 17 10:04:10 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 06:04:10 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hagrid's wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106649 From: meltowne [mailto:meltowne at yahoo.com] | Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 22:34 | She may have said that in an interview, but when HAgrid went to look | for the Giants, he said he would be watched because he wasn't allowed | to use magic - which suggests that he was not in fact authorized to | perform magic, even though his name was cleared. Which do we take as | canon? [Lee]: The way I read in OOTP, neither Hagrid nor Madam Maxim would use magic because they didn't want to be traced by ministry spies or Voldy spies. The less magic used, the better, so they went without. When Ron asked Hagrid if he couldn't have used a portkey, Hagrid's response was that they, not just he, were being watched, etc., etc. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me; | n2fgc at arrl.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From Zarleycat at aol.com Sat Jul 17 12:04:39 2004 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 12:04:39 -0000 Subject: Future Deaths In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106650 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Anastasia" > Several assumptions have been made who will die in books 6&7. > Here comes my attempt to collect them in one thread, as I think this > is not unimportant for the future happenings. > My ideas about it: > > > 2) I am afraid I am not sure that Lupin will survive either. His > best friends are dead by now. Have you noticed that he was the one > most and frequent to be found with Sirius? It's not astonishing but > it shows he doesn't have any family (does he?). Additionally, > Pettrigrew's hand is out of SILVER which kills werwolves. > Coincidence? Marianne here: I don't think silver kills werewolves in the JKR universe. There was that small scene during our first visit to 12 Grimmauld Place OoP where Dung asks Sirius whether the wine goblets are solid silver. Sirius assures him they are, and, later, Remus is described having raised his goblet to take a drink of wine. Now, maybe he's using a glass goblet, but I can't help but think that JKR inserted this just to clue us in that silver will not have an adverse effect on Remus. Anastasia: > I think Lupin would be more than ready to die for Harry if > necessary. The DEs would like him dead anyways because he is only > half-human in their eyes. > IMO Lupin does not have really much motivation to stay alife other > than fighting against LV and the DEs or protecting Harry. The way to > change this would be falling in love with someone. (Tonks?) Marianne: Oh, no! Please! Not Tonks! I just can't see it, but I'm one of those of the opinion that Remus and Sirius were an item. So, coming from that direction, Tonks is just totally inappropriate. ;-) ANastasia: > Actually, it surprises me that he hasn't become depressive yet and > even always comforts others. Well, that makes him absolute > outstanding in my eyes. Marianne: I'm not sure that Remus isn't depressed, especially after the events at the DoM. But, by the time we see him meeting Harry at the train station, he's probably once again well in control of his grief and, since he's there to support Harry, he's quite naturally going to make that his first priority. I agree he does offer others a quiet support, as he did with Molly when she confronted the boggart and, later at St. Mungo's when he went to talk to the newly-bitten werewolf. Anastasia: > 3) Pettigrew seems a good candidate to finally pay his life debt to > Harry. He couldn't do that other than dying. (Especially if he has > killed Lupin by this time, see point 2.) Marianne: Oh, I certainly hope Peter buys the farm, whether or not he's paying off any debt. But, can he only pay off his debt by dying? Couldn't he pay it off by preventing Harry's death? You didn't include any other people in your list. Are you of the opinion that Snape will go out in a blaze of glory? And what about all those Weasleys? Surely at least one of them is destined to be knocked off. If this epic war between the forces of good and evil is to continue to resonate, JKR has to bump off a number of characters we care about. Although, she's introduced many bit players. Perhaps her plan is to have a bunch of them get killed offstage and we'll only hear about it indirectly through another character relaying that information. That would enable her to make the point that this is a continuing, deadly fight and yet let her concentrate on killing off only one or two more major characters. Marianne From caseylane at wideopenwest.com Sat Jul 17 05:02:20 2004 From: caseylane at wideopenwest.com (Casey) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 05:02:20 -0000 Subject: Sirius Luring Snape In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20040716225015.01da30f8@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106651 Lissa Hess: > I still think he might have learned a bit from that, not necessarily in > regards to Snape but in regards to Lupin. But again, that's total wishful > thinking. (Might be true- he does seem more sensitive to Lupin in OotP > than he did in the pensieve, but that might just be general maturity and > his friends whacking him upside the head enough times instead of a climatic > turning point.) I have a hard time thinking it was *just* a childish prank. Snape could have been killed, it's that simple. It's like a present day 16 year old pulling a loaded gun on an enemy for a prank. Not acceptable under any circumstances. And what's worse is that Sirius never seemed to regret it. I don't think the shack changed Sirius but I agree it may have been a wake up call for James. It was too late to change his and Snapes relationship but still caused a change for the better. I see the way Sirius treated Lupin was that He is the only friend left from the old days. Sirius seems a "Glory Day's" kind of guy. Lupin is a reminder if the days when the three of them were cocks of the walk. He shares the memories of those fun times, before James' death and Azkaban. Sirius continues to want things like they were by treating Harry like James and then lamenting Harry's lack of an adventurous spirit. Casey From dolis5657 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 07:37:49 2004 From: dolis5657 at yahoo.com (dcgmck) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 07:37:49 -0000 Subject: Vanquishing Voldemort (Nick) In-Reply-To: <20040717024619.4578.qmail@web40607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106652 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Suzanne Chiles wrote: As Dumbledore says in > OoTP: > > "We both know there are other ways of destroying a man, Tom ... Indeed, your failure to understand that has always been your greatest weakness." > > I am beginning to think that Dumbledore and/or Harry will find a way for Harry to kill Lord Voldemort, leaving merely a old, broken, Tom Riddle. In this way, Harry fulfills the prophecy but does not commit murder. I also think that the Voldemort/Riddle connection is what needs splicing and that it is Dumbledore's target in his plan to "vanquish" Voldemort. Since killing is not something DD relishes and since Harry is deeply disturbed by the thought that he must someday become a killer if LV is to be defeated, there has to be another way. - In HPI only someone not looking for the stone could find it. - In HPII Tom Riddle is a memory that can be eradicated by the fang of a mythical creature after being unwittingly revived by a sleep- walking Ginny. More important, a clearly anticipated if improbable wand malfunction clears the way. - In HPIII time is turned to allow for the impossible. - In HPIV the time-honored tradition of cheating makes possible Harry's success while an impossible imposture provides a portkey for an improbable revival. - In HPV an unexpected mind-meld saves Arthur Weasley's life, an unexpected Grawp gropes his way to Hermione's and Harry's freedom, and the unexpected appearance of DD saves Harry in the nick of time. There always seems to be a new deus ex machina to save the day and the moral line for our increasingly angry young protagonist. Now the emotional dam has burst, but unless Rowling wants an equally angry global audience, Harry will find his way back to moral rectitude sans priggishness. This means helping DD facilitate the LV/TR split. I can't help thinking of Nearly Headless Nick's response to Harry when asked about the afterlife. Nick said that he is a ghost because he feared death too much to move on. Voldemort shares Nick's fear. It is what has driven him to seek so many ways to survive death. Somehow Nick's fear and Riddle's mortality have to be significant in helping Harry escape Voldemort's ultimate trap: seduction to the Dark Arts. From omphale at onetel.com Sat Jul 17 07:42:29 2004 From: omphale at onetel.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 07:42:29 -0000 Subject: Vanquishing Voldemort - The Ultimate Punishment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106653 Suzanne Chiles > wrote: > > ...edited... > > > > I am beginning to think that Dumbledore and/or Harrywill find a way > > for Harry to kill Lord Voldemort, leaving merely a old, broken, Tom > > Riddle. > > > > In this way, Harry fulfills the prophecy but does not commit murder. > > Asian_lovr2: > > Here is the ultimate punishment for Voldemort. > > To be immortal, stripped of his powers, and imprisoned. > > Immortality sounds good, but forever is such a long time. For > Voldemort/Riddle it would be century after century of no where to go, > nothing to do, just endless wasted hours passing by for eternity. > Saraquel adds: Oh yes I like the way this is going, in my original post (106591)I was attributing something more benevolent to Dumbledore, but hey, he really hates LV, lets forget all this woolly liberal redemption stuff and get into eternal torment. Now that's revenge. Hmmm Now here's a moral dilemma - redemption or revenge? What's DD going to go for? Because I actually think that it will be DD who plans it all. I think DD has been planning it from the start. The puzzles in PS were all things 12 year olds could solve etc etc. Btw, Voldemort is still chasing immortality and we know that DD worked with Flammel on the PS, so he could probably produce another one. From dolis5657 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 07:48:42 2004 From: dolis5657 at yahoo.com (dcgmck) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 07:48:42 -0000 Subject: Lily's sacrifice - Voldemort's 'Mark' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106654 Saraquel: > > To take things further, what does it mean to say LV MARKED H as his > equal. It can be taken as a literal thing, as in his scar. But it > is also possible to interpret (this is a use of the word in England > and quite probably elsewhere I don't know) the meaning of MARK to > be 'to realise' as in 'Mark my words'. Now that's something LV > hasn't done yet. At the end of GoF he most definitely sees Harry as his inferior. But tha's starting a whole new discussion..... This is something that has been bothering me ever since I first read that pesky prophecy. I do not see Voldemort as recognizing Harry, or anyone else for that matter, as an equal. In fact, the only one I could see Voldemort recognizing as an equal is his younger self, Tom Riddle. I think that Tom still exists somewhere inside Voldemort. Harry's blood might even have reawaken that human portion of him, and LV cannot coexist with TR. Since there are elipses involved, I am not yet convinced as to who "he" is each time the word appears in Trelawney's prophecy, no matter what Dumbledore says. Everyone knows prophecies make so much more sense after they are fulfilled... From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Sat Jul 17 11:28:54 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 11:28:54 -0000 Subject: Did James and Lily know about the prophecy? In-Reply-To: <042a01c46baf$7bc1be00$8e2f8c45@mynewputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106655 -- Tina wondered: > SNIP>> I had never thought that J&L knew about the prophecy? >Did I miss something (quite possible...)? Marny: wonder this, too. I also wonder if Frank and Alice Longbottom > knew, if Neville's grandmother knows, and if Neville knows. >I think it's possible that Neville knows. He kept quiet about his >parents for all that time; he could have kept quiet about this as well! Aggie now: I'm with you two! I didn't think that James, Lily, Frank, Alice etc knew about the prophecy. It's not mentioned either way in canon (is it?). It was my understanding that only DD, the eavesdropper and then consequently, LV knew. Not sure where I got this idea from but it's good to know that I'm not the only one! It is possible that Neville knows more than he's telling as he does tend to keep his cards close to his chest. I'm sure he will play a VERY significant role in the next two books. From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Sat Jul 17 11:35:42 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 11:35:42 -0000 Subject: Vanquishing Voldemort - The Ultimate Punishment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106656 >Steve: > > Here is the ultimate punishment for Voldemort. > > To be immortal, stripped of his powers, and imprisoned. > > Immortality sounds good, but forever is such a long time. For > Voldemort/Riddle it would be century after century of no where to go, > nothing to do, just endless wasted hours passing by for eternity. > > Plus, living forever, doesn't mean being young forever, or being in > good health forever, or being of sound mind forever. Earthly > immortality is highly overrated. Aggie: The only problem with this theory is that it gives LV the chance to rebuild himself. The chances of him then returning to power are quite high considering everything he's been through to get where he is now. I know that he'll be imprisoned but I doubt that would stop him!! This would just be fitting to Hollywood, leave enough ambiguity so there's always room for the sequel!! From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 14:23:26 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 14:23:26 -0000 Subject: Pureblood Vs. Halfblood Vs Fullblood In-Reply-To: <042401c46baf$28353140$8e2f8c45@mynewputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106657 > And I (Marny) wonder: (snip perfectly good list) > half-and-halfs (one parent a wizard/witch, one a muggle) > Seamus Finnegan, Dean Thomas (per JKR's website, but he doesn't know it), > Tom Riddle, Tonks Ginger: It is easy to miss it at first read (I did myself), but Tonks is a full-blood. It is her father that is Muggleborn. > Cedric and Luna are both known to have one magical parent, with the other > not specified Ginger: Tina has covered this well. I am convinced by her words that these two belong in the full-blood category. (snip more) > Unknown (at least to me, but maybe I missed something!): > all the teachers; molly, arthur, Lupin, Peter Pettigrew, Lavender, Parvati, > Cho, Vicktor Crum, Ginger: Molly and Arthur seem to be pureblood. I don't have any hard evidence for Molly, other than her being a Prewett, but Arthur's facination with plugs etc. and general ignorance of all things Muggle would lead me to believe that he is a pureblood. Lupin is halfblood, per JKR interview (World Book Day chat). Lavender has been seen as a Muggleborn by some listees as she didn't know what the Grim was. I say that sounds reasonable. > So, by numbers of mentions, it seems like full-bloods predominant in the > Wizarding world, followed by muggle-borns. > > The relevance of this, I don't know, but I thought it was somewhat > interesting. I agree that it is interesting, but there are just too many unknowns. Perhaps JKR will give us a bio sheet! Oh the threads it could spawn! Ginger, who admits that half of what she wrote here is knowledge derived from pressing her nose to the screen on this list, and that this post was done for the sake of accuracy, not to take anything from those whose original thoughts they were. From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Sat Jul 17 11:52:05 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 11:52:05 -0000 Subject: Don't the Death Eaters know that Snape's a spy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106658 > HunterGreen: > SNIP> > This begs a question though: How did Snape get back into the fold > when Voldemort believes he left forever and is planning to kill >him? Its always seemed rather simple, Snape appeared later that >night (the dark mark must be some sort of homing mechanism, perhaps >it was still strong enough for Snape to find him hours later), and >explained himself. Voldemort's remark about Snape always seemed less >angry than the one about the one 'too cowardly to return', (about >that, I wonder if he did something that was the reason Snape turned >his back on the DEs, and Voldemort is not surprised that he left) >thus it seems reasonable that Snape had at least a shot at getting >himself back into the DE circle. > For one thing, Snape certainly was not in a position to just take >off out of the school and run off to a Death Eater meeting when the dark mark appeared, and Voldemort knew that. Barty Jr. isn't there either for the same reason. > As for Snape's relationship with Lucius and Draco, I don't there's > anything fake about it. Aggie: I like this explaination. It fits well with canon. I've always had a problem with Snape returning to the DEs, with him not being killed. This goes a long way to explain it. It would also explain the look of apprehension on his face at the end of GoF when DD asked him to go on his mission. Although I agree that Lucius and Snape *are* old school friends, I do wonder how Lucius doesn't realise how close to DD Snape is. I suppose it could be put down to part of his double agent act but I always thought Lucius would be more suspicious than that. I guess it could be the same relationship as Sirius, James and Peter. Sirius, with the benefit of hindsight, wondered how he never suspected Peter in the first place, maybe Lucius thinks of Snape in a similar way. Before I get jumped on for comparing Snape and Peter, I'm not *directly* comparing them. I'm merely suggesting that Lucius, being several years older, sees Snape as Sirius saw Peter. I'm not saying that Snape is a sniviling sycophant but he could have look up to Lucius in the same way as Peter did to J and S. This would 'allow' him (LM) not to see Snapes's double agent role and would 'allow' him to praise Snape to Umbridge. Or maybe (as some are saying) he's in on it too. . . ;o)) From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 14:32:51 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 14:32:51 -0000 Subject: Sirius Luring Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106659 Alla wrote earlier: > > Why does remus say -"of course Snape tried it?" Why is he so > sure?< Pippin replied: > Heh-heh.Because Eversoevil!Lupin arranged the whole thing. > (You knew I was going to say that) It's bad enough that > Snape is watching the willow and it could be the end of the > Marauder outings, the only thing that makes Lupin's > transformations bearable. But what's even worse is that those > reckless idiots James and Sirius aren't going to be put off by > Snape. They'll take it as a challenge, they'll be sure to think they > can sneak down to the willow whether Snape is watching it or > not...and then they'll *all* be caught and expelled, or worse. > Catastrophe! > > So Lupin manipulates Sirius into telling Snape the secret of the > willow, and uses any of several means to get Snape to try > it--imperius, a hotheadedness potion (is that too difficult for > Lupin to make?) a confundus charm, who knows? But the point > is, Lupin has nothing to lose. Even if he or Sirius is caught, it's > still better than all four of them going down. > snip Alla: LOL! Pippin. Yes, I confess this thought slipped my mind (Not that I was deliberately seeking you out or anything :o)) But I think that I earlier confessed with deep sadness in my heart that after watching the movie my support of your wonderful theory significantly decreased, so can you think of alternate explanation? I was trying to figure out why Snape followed Marauders int he first place? I refuse to think that his initial motivations were to get them in trouble. I want to think he wanted to be liked and accepted by them and was not. Maybe Remus knew thatSirius /or James and Snape were somehow related (cousins, I don't know) Casey wrote: > I have a hard time thinking it was *just* a childish prank. Snape > could have been killed, it's that simple. It's like a present day 16 > year old pulling a loaded gun on an enemy for a prank. Not > acceptable under any circumstances. And what's worse is that Sirius > never seemed to regret it. snip. Alla: By all means, that is your right to think so. But I can see it quite easily, I can also assume that they did many bad things to each other, which we don't know yet. So, I can see mitigating circumstnaces ( not ACCEPTABLE, but mitigating). This Night to me is still equation with many unknown factors. About Sirius' apology - I know asked that question, but I'd like to ask again. When, in your opinion Sirius was supposed to apologise? The night of the Shrieking Shack, when Snape threatened to send him to Dementors? We don't know whether he was sorry or not. We just did not hear him saying the words. I wanted to hear apology too. These two together are my favourite slash couple and I would love that scene and the implications my imagination will drew of it. Oh, well. From meriaugust at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 14:34:35 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 14:34:35 -0000 Subject: James gave his life, why no protection from him? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106660 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mad_maxime" wrote: > Max wrote: > > Something special about Lily is certainly possible, but I can't buy > this whole selfless sacrifice for love automatically means ancient > magic protection. If that were true people would have heard about it > before. There would be stories and legends about it. Lily could not > possibly be the first person to sacrifice herself for someone she > loved in the wizarding world, after all. Yet we know from reading > PS/SS that Harry surviving the AK curse was unheard of. > > So something is up there as far as I'm concerned. It makes no sense > that this type of protection would occur automatically. Actually, DD knew about this kind of magiacal protection. He called it "ancient magic" and told Harry that this is the exact kind of magic that LV has no use for, and therefore it is understandable that LV forgot about it when he attacked Harry after killing Lily. Implications that James loved Harry less than Lily did (I don't buy that a father's love for his only child is any less potent or powerful than a mother's) aside, what we really have to take into account is the type of protection that Harry is under now. There may very well be some sort of sacrificial-love protection on Harry from his father, but he has no living relatives on his father's side to activate that. His mother's sister was still alive to take him in, and therefore Lily's sacrifice is the one mentioned most and used. And as to what each of them were thinking during the final moments, I believe that they were both thinking of Harry, probably because they both knew of the prophecy. To insinuate that James was thinking of defeating LV ("a guy thing to think"), when he knew quite surely that he couldn't, is IMVHO an insult to James' memory. Meri - who keeps in mind that Lily wasn't a saint either... From tzakis1225 at netzero.com Sat Jul 17 15:00:08 2004 From: tzakis1225 at netzero.com (demetra1225) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:00:08 -0000 Subject: Sirius Luring Snape In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20040716225015.01da30f8@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106661 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lissa Hess wrote: > Dead on. I just want to believe Sirius grew up some. ::sigh:: Like a lot > of people, his and James' attitude in the pensieve was totally repellent to > me... probably because I have a fair guess at how Snape feels! Demetra: This is what bothers me most about Sirius, the fact that he apparently never matured beyond an impulsive teenager. By all accounts James did, why not Sirius? I mean *before* Azkaban, he was at least 21-22 by then. I think the saddest aspect of Sirius' life is that he died before he grew up. Lissa: > I still think he might have learned a bit from that, not necessarily in > regards to Snape but in regards to Lupin. But again, that's total wishful > thinking. (Might be true- he does seem more sensitive to Lupin in OotP > than he did in the pensieve, but that might just be general maturity and > his friends whacking him upside the head enough times instead of a climatic > turning point.) Demetra: I'm not too sure about this either, or was he simply clinging to Lupin (like he does with Harry, who looks like James) as the last reminder of the good old days. Certainly Lupin seems to be trying to help Sirius, but that seems to be Lupin's general nature. An unimportant side note, but I wondered why the heck Sirius never bought Lupin a new set of dang robes? Sirius obviously has the money. I suppose it could be a pride thing with Lupin (like Ron), but Harry managed to procure a new set of dress robes for his friend. Why couldnt Sirius? Demetra From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 15:18:00 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:18:00 -0000 Subject: Pureblood attitudes and the word "racism" (Was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106662 Carol: > I don't want to "attack" anyone's arguments or "bash" any characters, > even those whose actions or values I disapprove of, including James > and Sirius in the Pensieve scene and Sirius (I'm not sure about James) > in the Prank. What I want to do is *understand* the characters and > their motives and actions--even Voldemort and Lucius Malfoy and > Bellatrix, all of whom (unlike the enigmatic Snape) are indisputably > evil. (Or should I say, there's no canon evidence that they're > anything but evil in the books so far, presumably by their own choice > and not by nature, given JKR's views on the nature of evil.) > > But at least we both agree that James' and Sirius' actions (as opposed > to James and Sirius themselves--who, like Severus in the same scene, > are fifteen-year-old boys and should be understood as such) are less > than admirable. Whew! (Pauses for breath.) Alla: We differ significantly. When I read HP books, I have no desire to understand the characters I am not emotionally invested in. I mean, sure I want to know the ultimate answer to the mystery, if they will be involved in it, but no more than that. I have no strong desire to learn what makes Bellatrix tick. I mean I will read about it, sure, but I just don't care much. At the moment, I know enough about her to say "Die! Bellatrix, die". I have enough characters in this books, whose motivations I am dying to learn about (and yes, Snape is one of them) Carol: > So. Civility. Objectivity. Canon. Keeping our own personalities and > real-world political views and emotional reactions to the characters > out of the discussion. Exploring possibilities, clearing up > misunderstandings, *not* "proving" we're right or "attacking" other > people's arguments. Alla: It is obvious, that our posting style is very different. I don't ever want to keep emotions out of my arguments and not planning on doing so.The only thing I agree with you is that we have to be civil to each other. > Carol responds: > > I understand your position and I probably won't be able to persuade > you to think otherwise. All I'm asking is for you to look at my > arguments and consider them objectively. Certainly JKR has some real > world examples of genocide in mind with relation to VWI and I agree > that she's connecting the pureblood prejudice in itself with the > consequences of taking it too far, but that's not what I'm talking > about here. > > I'm only objecting to the term "racism," which I think has been > applied rather hastily and inaccurately to the pureblood prejudice > against Muggleborns and particularly to the word "mudblood," which > some posters appear to be equating with the term "n****r" and other > equally offensive racial epithets. IMO, the application of an > emotionally charged term like "racism" to the "purebloods are > superior" attitude of the Slytherins prevents us from looking at them > objectively and understanding why they think as they do. (I'm not > saying that we should *agree* with them or that such attitudes, taken > to extremes can't be harmful. Obviously they can be, both in the RW > and the WW. Nor am I defending the DEs' Mugglebaiting or Tom Riddle's > attacks on Muggleborns in CoS, which are of course reprehensible. I'm > only saying that words like "racism" (which is *not* used within the > WW itself) push people's buttons and consequently should be avoided if > we want to understand what makes the Slytherin purebloods think, > speak, and act as they do. Assumptions such as "racism is evil: the > Slytherins are racist; therefore Slytherin House is evil" are facile > and counterproductive. We can't impose our own assumptions on them no > matter how right we believe ourselves to be, but if we continue to > apply the term "racism" to their actions and values, that's exactly > what we'll do. We'll prejudge them as they prejudge the Muggleborns. > > A question of semantics? Semantics is important. Just ask Dumbledore. > What we're seeing in the WW is prejudice, yes, but it isn't racism > because it doesn't involve races. > > Racism per se is remarkably absent from the Potterverse. snip. In fact, we wouldn't even know that Dean > Thomas, Lee Jordan, and Kingsley Shacklebolt are black if JKR hadn't > told us. It's a nonissue. > > But we do see what might better be termed "prejudice" among people who > are all of the same race (Harry and Draco, Lily and Snape, Diary!Tom > and his petrified or murdered victims, the real Tom and his own > family). How can it possibly be racism if they're all of the same > race, including the Muggles as well as the Muggleborns? And if it > isn't based on race, what, exactly, is it based on? Alla: Oy, no. I disagree. I see no reason why we should not think about racism when we read about "pureblood attitudes", if JRK did not specifically said that word. I gave you example, which resonates the strongest with me, because those are my experiences, but I am sure many people think about other kind of prejudices and racism is among them , when they read about Slytherin's ideologies. JRK transformed quite a few RL hatreds and prejudices and reflected them into "potterverse". Of course it will not be exactly the same as RL. Many argue that house-elves enslavement is the closest analogy to slavery. I think that JKR actually wanted to show "racism" allegorically. Skin colour may be non-issue in WW, but other things show the same problem. I think that "prejudice" is too weak a word for me to use tor eflect correctly what Slytherin pure-bloods think about Muggle-borns. Although, I guess it does start with prejudice. There could be a reason of why Slytherin purebloods started to hate Muggle-Borns. As del argued , we may even learn that all WW has guilty conscience, but right now I DON'T CARE. This ideology has got to go. Period. No matter why and how it started, it has to go. I argued earlier that I find the condemnation of every eleven year old who comes to Slytherin to be very silly, because children cannot be evil at eleven. But, I also think that redemption of the Slyhterin House is only possible, when what lies at the heart of their choosing, will dissappear. When "blood issue" will be come a "non-issue" and yes, it is still an issue now (remember the password to Slytherin Commons) Carol: > To return to your argument, Alla, I *don't* think we can separate the > prejudice against Muggles from the prejudice against Muggleborns. It's > the fact that Muggleborns are the children of nonmagical parents that > causes the pureblood antagonism against them in the first place, as > your quote from Ron indicates. Alla: I think we can separate them, because NOBODY seems to dislike Muggle- Borns except Slyhterins and DE, but everybody, even Arthur has a patronising attitude towards Muggles. > > Alla wrote previously: > > If we knew that Severus only said this word once in his life under > > the stress, I would not condemn him, but we KNOW that he acted on it > > by joining Voldemort, so yes, I 'd say that his actions are > > reprehensible. > > Carol responds: > I don't think we can compare his angry response at being helped by a > girl he's been taught to regard as inferior (and may even > subconsciously resent for not living down to his expectations) to his > later decision to join Voldemort. Alla: Beng saved by a girl? he could pick and throw at her any kind of insult, anything. he chose this one. Sorry, it tells me a lot. From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Jul 17 15:23:37 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:23:37 -0000 Subject: Sirius Luring Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106663 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > I was trying to figure out why Snape followed Marauders int he first place? I refuse to think that his initial motivations were to get > them in trouble. > > I want to think he wanted to be liked and accepted by them and was not. Maybe Remus knew that Sirius /or James and Snape were somehow related (cousins, I don't know) > But everyone with pureblood ancestry is related, though they may not be willing to associate with one another. Sirius says Snape and James hated each other from the moment they first set eyes on each other and that James was every thing Snape wanted to be. There could be some thwarted hero worship underneath it all. I have the idea that Snape might have polyjuiced himself into James at some point, and that Sirius found out about it but couldn't prove it without getting the real James into trouble too (since he was somewhere he wasn't supposed to be at the time.) BTW, I don't think we can prove anything by what got left out of a movie. Septology clues can get moved around--JKR did it herself by moving the half blood prince from Book Two to Book Six. Backstory can be filled in at any time. Pippin From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sat Jul 17 15:25:19 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:25:19 -0000 Subject: Harry and Hagrid (re: Two Crazy Theories) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106664 Iris: > Do you think of Albus Dumbledore? He would be a wonderful half > blood prince. And he is necessarily going to play an important > part in the sixth book, simply because Harry might feel resentful > towards him and think he's responsible for the loss of Sirius. > Maybe Dumbledore will be the next important character to die, I > don't know. Or maybe he will turn out to be less powerful than he > seems to be. Maybe not less powerful than Voldemort, but less > powerful than Harry. It would be logical: Harry as at least one > power Dumbledore doesn't have: the power to vanquish the Dark Lord. Jen: Actually, I like your explanation better than Dumbledore dying in Book 6. Because I think the key for Book 6 is Harry moving beyond his dependence on Dumbledore's explanations and seeking Truth for himself. Dumbledore has played a very specific role in Harry's life, as protector of Harry and the Prophecy, and that role will now be subsumed under the coming War and Harry's role in defeating Voldemort. JKR alludes to this in her Royal Albert Hall apprearance: "...as people who have finished Order of the Phoenix will know, Dumbledore has had to step back a little bit from Harry in an effort to teach him some of life's harder lessons." (June 26, 2003) But I still hope Dumbeldore is the HBP and we get a better view of 'how and why' he came to be who he is! *Jen from previous post*: > "I was particulary fascinated by the idea that Book 5 was the Nigredo > phase, or dissolution, symbolized by Sirius Black. As he dies, and > will most likely be reborn in a new form, so does the Nigredo stage > give way to the next stage Albedo, or purification, and finally the > last stage you talk about Iris, the Rubedo." Iris: > I agree with dear Sirius being the symbol of the Nigredo phase in > OotP. > But he is not the one who dies and will be reborn in a new form, > IMO. He dies, yes, but he is not playing the part of the initiated. > This is Harry's part. Harry is the chosen one. Jen: It *is* Harry who dissolves and symbolically dies to The Boy Who Lived in OOTP, like you said later on. To me Sirius is the literal example to Harry's symbolic one, and that's why I think we'll see him again in some form (that and JKR's cryptic comments on her website!). Iris: > Reading that book was a Nigredo phase for us too, it was uneasy and > disturbing sometimes. > Now,in a sort of way, we are initiated too. It's not just an > entertaining and gripping book we are holding by now in our hands. > It's also a metaphysical work, that requires more than our liking > for reading. Jen: Yes! Uneasy and disturbing describes how I felt reading OOTP at times--what's happening to my beloved Harry, Sirius, Dumbledore-- *all* the characters I've grown to love and expect to act a certain way? Disillusionment charms, indeed!! The Alchemy symbolism is the only thing that makes sense to me for explaining the 'scorched earth' feel of OOTP. Thanks for replying Iris! Your thoughts are always illuminating. Jen Reese From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 15:30:20 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:30:20 -0000 Subject: Harry and Hagrid (re: Two Crazy Theories) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106665 Jen wrote: Granger particularly postulates that Luna will symbolize the Albedo stage in Book 6, but it seems to me the next stage for Harry will be resolving his relationship with Albus, the master alchemist, in order to reunite with Rubeus in the final stage/book. And then Harry will be back where he started, with the Keeper of the Keys. Reminds me of T.S. Eliot: "We shall not cease from exploration And the end of all our exploring Will be to arrive where we started And know the place for the first time." (Four Quartets) vmonte responds: I like what Jen & Iris have posted. I was also wondering if perhaps the series will end at the begining, back at Godric's Hollow or perhaps with the original split between the founders of Hogwarts. I can't help but think that JKR is always introducing the past (and I think she has done it in someway or another in every book). The series start the day after the Godric's Hollow attack, we've also had Tom's diary, time-travel, the Little Hangleton flashback, the memory of the 1st prophecy via the penseive. Also, DD's memories of the trials, and of teenage Bertha Jorkins. The penseive also showed us Snape's worst memory. What's left to know? The events of Godric's Hollow, the break-up between the founders, and the torture of Neville's parents. How will we find out about GH? Will it be through a penseive memory, or a confession, we don't know yet? The same goes for the Longbottoms, with the added possibility that one of the parents will snap out of their illness to explain all. (I may be wrong about this but I keep remembering the vision of Snape dressed in Grandmother's clothes--like a wolf in sheep's clothing.) What about the founders? Will JKR write a flashback scene? It can't be via a penseive or a memory because no one that is presently alive is from that time, right? Or how about Ron's brain attack? This could be another way for JKR to bring back info from the past. If the brain belonged to Godric then Ron might have important information to impart and a penseive could be used for all to see that past. (Why else would add the brain attack anyway.) We may in the end be brought back to where the story began but with new understanding of what happened. vivian From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 15:48:51 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:48:51 -0000 Subject: Sirius Luring Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106666 Alla previously > > I was trying to figure out why Snape followed Marauders int he > first place? I refuse to think that his initial motivations were to > get > > them in trouble. > > > > I want to think he wanted to be liked and accepted by them and > was not. Maybe Remus knew that Sirius /or James and Snape > were somehow related (cousins, I don't know) > > > Pippin: > But everyone with pureblood ancestry is related, though they > may not be willing to associate with one another. Sirius says > Snape and James hated each other from the moment they first > set eyes on each other and that James was every thing Snape > wanted to be. There could be some thwarted hero worship > underneath it all. > > I have the idea that Snape might have polyjuiced himself into > James at some point, and that Sirius found out about it but > couldn't prove it without getting the real James into trouble too > (since he was somewhere he wasn't supposed to be at the > time.) Alla: Yes, I know that everyone is distantly related, but I am thinking more about direct relatives. There was something that Harry did not pay attention to on that tapestry, right? Another surprise for us? Hmmm, Snape polyjuicing himself? Could be, could be. I want to hear more. Do you think he tried to court Lily disguised as James? Pippin: > BTW, I don't think we can prove anything by what got left out of a > movie. Septology clues can get moved around--JKR did it herself > by moving the half blood prince from Book Two to Book Six. > Backstory can be filled in at any time. > Alla: No, I don't think we can prove a lot from the movie. but it is all JKR's fault. Why did she mention that foreshadowing? :o) Anyways, Snape's shielding the trio cured me from ESE!Snape for now. As for Lupin, well it is just metathinking, but as I said before he looked at Harry with so much love and pain in his eyes, that I cannot imagine him to be evil anymore. I just can't From eeyore5497 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 13:22:16 2004 From: eeyore5497 at yahoo.com (Michelle Horcher) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 06:22:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hagrid's wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040717132216.98247.qmail@web12204.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106667 From: meltowne [mailto:meltowne at yahoo.com] > | She may have said that in an interview, but when > HAgrid went to look > | for the Giants, he said he would be watched > because he wasn't allowed > | to use magic - which suggests that he was not in > fact authorized to > | perform magic, even though his name was cleared. > Which do we take as > | canon? > Michelle replies: My theory is that the "pink umbrella" is holding the broken pieces of Hagrid's wand. And perhaps, DD fixed it up for him as a wand in disguise. He used it to light the fire in the hut in PS/SS and I believe there may well have been other references as well! From chinaskinotes at sbcglobal.net Sat Jul 17 15:04:28 2004 From: chinaskinotes at sbcglobal.net (chinaskisnotes) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:04:28 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106668 > From: meltowne [mailto:meltowne at y...] > | She may have said that in an interview, but when HAgrid went to look > | for the Giants, he said he would be watched because he wasn't allowed > | to use magic - which suggests that he was not in fact authorized to > | perform magic, even though his name was cleared. Which do we take as > | canon? Even though Hagrid's name was cleared, he never received a magical education. I always assumed that without the Hogwart's degree or whatever, you wouldn't be able to use magic... I mean, he was expelled in his third year- that's a lot of schooling to miss out on. From dolis5657 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 15:32:34 2004 From: dolis5657 at yahoo.com (dcgmck) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:32:34 -0000 Subject: On Fawkes and the Forest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106669 [Lee]: > Phoenixes live a long time with many a rebirth. I tend toward the belief that 1) they are extremely intelligent and 2) they possibly retain memory from their experiences throughout their lifetimes. So, even after a burning and rebirth, their memory of all that was is still intact. > > Taking this continuous memory along with magical intelligence, yes, Fawkes is one smart bird. :-) > Cheers, > > Lee :-) The retained memories as one of the causes for Fawkes' amazing intelligence makes sense. While I don't think that he is Godric Gryffindor, how do you feel about the idea that Fawkes was GG's familiar and that Dumbledore 'inherited' Fawkes, as will Harry in his turn? From mhbobbin at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 15:32:56 2004 From: mhbobbin at yahoo.com (mhbobbin) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:32:56 -0000 Subject: Vanquishing Voldemort - The Ultimate Punishment Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106670 Asian_lovr2: > > Here is the ultimate punishment for Voldemort. > > To be immortal, stripped of his powers, and imprisoned. > > Immortality sounds good, but forever is such a long time. For > Voldemort/Riddle it would be century after century of no where to go, > nothing to do, just endless wasted hours passing by for eternity. mhbobbin writes: If an imprisonment for eternity is the punishment for Voldemort, I hope it's a prison designed by Fred and George. That'd truly be a nightmare for LV. mhbobbin From dontask2much at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 15:59:46 2004 From: dontask2much at yahoo.com (charme) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 11:59:46 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry and Hagrid (re: Two Crazy Theories) References: Message-ID: <02c201c46c17$158630e0$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> No: HPFGUIDX 106671 vmonte responds: > > What about the founders? Will JKR write a flashback scene? It can't > be via a penseive or a memory because no one that is presently alive > is from that time, right? Or how about Ron's brain attack? This > could be another way for JKR to bring back info from the past. > If the brain belonged to Godric then Ron might have important > information to impart and a penseive could be used for all to see > that past. (Why else would add the brain attack anyway.) > Charme - That brain attack is a curious occurance, isn't it? I remember Madame Pomphrey stating in OoP that "thoughts" left deeper scarring than anything else, so it makes you wonder what exactly Ron experienced. It also apparent it wasn't an enjoyable experience - what if it didn't belong to Godric? Charme From davidagabbard at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 15:45:16 2004 From: davidagabbard at yahoo.com (David Gabbard) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 08:45:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Did James and Lily know about the prophecy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040717154516.40756.qmail@web90005.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106672 Aggie now: I didn't think that James, Lily, Frank, Alice etc knew about the prophecy. It's not mentioned either way in canon (is it?). It was my understanding that only DD, the eavesdropper and then consequently, LV knew. Not sure where I got this idea from but it's good to know that I'm not the only one! It is possible that Neville knows more than he's telling as he does tend to keep his cards close to his chest. I'm sure he will play a VERY significant role in the next two books. David Gabbard: I'm not sure if James and Lily knew about the prophecy, but Prisoner of Azkaban, American Edition, Page 204: "...Fudge dropped his voice and proceeded in a sort of low rumble. Not many people are aware that the Potters knew You-Know_who was after them..." So if James and Lily knew Lord Voldemort may be after them, I think it is plausible the Longbottom's were also in hiding. From davidagabbard at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 15:51:02 2004 From: davidagabbard at yahoo.com (David Gabbard) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 08:51:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Vanquishing Voldemort (Nick) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040717155102.55971.qmail@web90006.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106673 Suzanne Chiles wrote: As Dumbledore says in > OoTP: > > "We both know there are other ways of destroying a man, Tom ... Indeed, your failure to understand that has always been your greatest weakness." > > I am beginning to think that Dumbledore and/or Harry will find a way for Harry to kill Lord Voldemort, leaving merely a old, broken, Tom Riddle. In this way, Harry fulfills the prophecy but does not commit murder. David Gabbard: I'm glad you brought this quotation back up to the surface - What is Dumbledore referring to when he says "We both know there are other ways of destroying a man..." Why/What do they BOTH know? Have either one of them already destroyed a man in a way worse than killing him? Did Bellatrix just do that to Sirius? Is Dumbledore referring to "vapormort"? I firmly believe JKR writes more questions than answers. From davidagabbard at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 16:15:39 2004 From: davidagabbard at yahoo.com (David Gabbard) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 09:15:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: We've been going in the wrong direction... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040717161539.13232.qmail@web90007.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106674 aleesahn wrote: long SNIP of a lot of great info and then: A leader, or Prince, of half- bloods would naturally align with DD, Harry and the OoP against Voldy and company, right? But not necessarily, depending on the nature of the half-blood. Centaurs? Giants? Vampires? Werewolves? What would be a plausible guess for the HBP if we assume he/it is a threat to Harry? Now David Responds: Goblet of Fire, American Edition P651 At the graveyard Voldemort starts going on: "When Azkaban is broken open, the Lestranges will be honored beyond their dreams. The dementors will join us...they are our natural allies...we will recall the banished giants...I shall have all my devoted servants returned to me, and an army of creatures whom all fear..." Since L.V. lists his faithful death eaters, dementors, and banished giants and seems to refer to them collectively as "all my devoted servants returned to me", then says "and an army of creatures whom all fear..." I think it's possible that the "Half Blood Prince" is the leader of a new foul army of creatures we have not been introduced to yet. From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Sat Jul 17 16:24:30 2004 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 16:24:30 -0000 Subject: FILK: Grim Old Place Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106675 Grim Old Place (OOP, Chap. 4) To the tune of The Big Dollhouse, from Marc Shaiman's musical Hairspray Dedicated to Constance Vigilance (sorry, no MIDI!) THE SCENE: Grimmauld Place in London. The Order of the Phoenix, with Harry in tow, arrives, and prepares to summon forth number 12. THE OOP: We're gonna get in We're gonna get in We're gonna get in We're gonna get in our shelter Our harbor This grim old place! (KREACHER steps forth, between numbers 10 and 13 Grimmauld Place) KREACHER (spoken): Wizards and witches, Order of the Phoenix, Master Potter, welcome to the Most Noble and Ancient House of Black, centrally located here at 12 Grimmauld Place. I'm Kreacher, and I'll be your house-elf this evening. Think of me as your most devoted and obedient servant servant of the Dark Lord! MOODY (music, giving a note to Harry) Step up and then say, "Albus sent me." (12 Grimmauld Place magically appears) LUPIN The Order of the Phoenix Hangs out here rent-free TONKS We have ev'rybody here Since we made it our base SHACKLEBOLT It's an ancient house ALL OOP: And a grim old place! (Enter all into 12 Grimmauld) HARRY Beard of Merlin, What smells so rank? Looks like the den Of some foul Death-Eating crank MOODY We can hear Phinny laughing, Though we can't see his face. PHINEAS (ducking his head into a frame just long enough to sing his line) 'Cause you'll never keep me framed . ALL PORTRAITS In this grim old place. KREACHER & ELF HEADS Grim place! HARRY There's elf heads on the wall KREACHER, ELF HEADS & PORTRAITS Grim place! LUPIN And snakes TONKS And shrieks MOODY Dark halls! MRS. BLACK They let the scum and filth visit What a crass disgrace (Enter Sirius.) SIRIUS Mother, just shut your trap . ALL .In this grim old place The Portraits all begin yelling and screaming at once SIRIUS (to Harry) Yoo hoo, my family's a little evil They served the Dark Lord In a red-hot fever MRS. BLACK You betrayed our honor, Our nation, our race! (Sirius closes the curtains, effectively silencing her) SIRIUS & OOP: It's curtains, Mom, In this grim old place (Enter Hermione & The Weasleys - Molly, Ron, Ginny & the twins) HARRY (shouting) HERM `N' RON I HAVE GOT TO COMPLAIN!! ALL OF YOUR CORRESPONDENCE HAS HAS BEEN TOO MUNDANE!!! HERMIONE & RON Hey, though you're livid We're glad to embrace Our grand old pal In this grim old place (Harry remains standoffish) ELF HEADS & PORTRAITS Grim Place! HARRY (shouting) NO NEWS! NO OWLS! MOLLY (to the twins) No ears! ELF HEADS & PORTRAITS Grim Place! RON Dumble told us, "Don't interfere, `Cause on Privet Drive He needs his space. So don't send no news of this . ALL ..Grim old place!" (Enter a swarm of doxies and boggarts) HERMIONE Harry, I hope you'll Take my meaning We ain't had fun We've been busy cleaning MOLLY & GINNY We're trying To wipe out every trace . HERMIONE, WEASLEYS & CHORUS OF DOXIES AND BOGGARTS ..Of doxies and boggarts from This grim old place!! FRED (displaying a pair of Extendible Ears) Hey, cool it, Harry Just drop the caps Why don't ya come and check out Our killer apps? GEORGE These wheezes of Weasleys Now will set the pace. FRED & GEORGE (each pocketing a doxy) We'll earn big galleons Thanks to this grim place ALL Grim place! HERMIONE & RON You've come in from the cold ALL Grim place! FRED But he's still ticked . GEORGE he wasn't told (Kreacher pulls back the curtains from Mrs. Black so she can participate in the grand finale) ALL (except Harry) Harry Potter, he's angry And this grim old place This grim old place This grim old place Ain't half as grim as he! As he! As he! HARRY AS ME!!! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 17:41:57 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 17:41:57 -0000 Subject: Pureblood attitudes and the word "racism" (Was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106676 Alla: > When I read HP books, I have no desire to > understand the characters I am not emotionally invested in. I mean, > sure I want to know the ultimate answer to the mystery, if they will > be involved in it, but no more than that. > > I have no strong desire to learn what makes Bellatrix tick. I mean I > will read about it, sure, but I just don't care much. At the moment, > I know enough about her to say "Die! Bellatrix, die". > I have enough characters in this books, whose motivations I am dying > to learn about (and yes, Snape is one of them) Del replies : I can understand that you might not want to learn of some characters' motivations. It's your choice, it's your right. But other people, like Carol and I, do want to investigate these motivations. I personally believe it is *essential* to try and figure out people's motives if I want to live in peace with them. I want to know what makes them tick, and I want them to know what makes me tick, so that we can avoid stepping on each other's toes. Moreover, I feel it's counterproductive and committing an injustice (IMO !!) to judge people without at least trying to know why they do things. What if Bella, as a kid, was abducted by a group of Muggles who raped and tortured her ? It would sure explain why she hates the Muggles so much. I agree that the simplest solution is that she was taught to hate them, but it is not necessarily the *right* solution. Her own sister Andromeda evolved differently even though logic has it that she was taught exactly the same thing. Maybe Bella would have rejected her parents's beliefs (like her cousin Sirius did as well) too, but something prevented her from doing so. We just don't *know*. And it *is* important IMO, because in the case of my supposition for example, nobody would be able to convert her to the light side until they addressed that rape issue. I see it happen way too often that someone becomes prejudiced against a specific group of people because of what *one* person of that group did to them ! Once you manage to make them see that this person acted on their own and not as a representative of their group, quite often people stop being prejudiced against the group. It *does* matter WHY people do the things they do. Alla wrote : > It is obvious, that our posting style is very different. I > don't ever want to keep emotions out of my arguments and not planning > on doing so.The only thing I agree with you is that we have to be > civil to each other. Del replies : Once again, it is your right to choose to do so. But you have to be aware that this might prompt some posters to not want to discuss matters with you. I for example just don't know how to deal with upset people and I strongly avoid being around upset people, because they make me feel scared and unsure. Alla wrote : > Oy, no. I disagree. I see no reason why we should not think about > racism when we read about "pureblood attitudes", if JRK did not > specifically said that word. (snip) > JRK transformed quite a few RL hatreds and prejudices and reflected > them into "potterverse". Del replies : Let's reach an agreement, shall we ? Carol and I let you take the pure-bloods' attitude for straight racism, and you let us think otherwise, OK ? Alla wrote : > I think that "prejudice" is too weak a word for me to use tor eflect > correctly what Slytherin pure-bloods think about Muggle-borns. > Although, I guess it does start with prejudice. Del replies : Prejudice is what you call it when there's no word for it yet. It's not stronger or weaker, it's just unspecified. Alla wrote : > There could be a reason of why Slytherin purebloods started to hate > Muggle-Borns. As del argued , we may even learn that all WW has > guilty conscience, but right now I DON'T CARE. > > This ideology has got to go. Period. No matter why and how it > started, it has to go. Del replies : But it won't go by force, don't fool yourself about that. And it *should NOT* go anyway. Any truly democratic society *must* exhibit *all* kinds of beliefs. If any belief is forcefully muted, then that society is not democratic anymore. What *must* be ensured however, is that extremist people cannot *act* upon their beliefs. Laws must be passed to prevent them from truly hurting their potential victims, or to scare them enough to dissuade them to even try. And no I don't think that people should be legally punished for uttering insults. They should be made aware that the majority of the population disagrees with them, but that's about it. If Snape or Malfoy should be punished for calling people m**blood, then there are people out there who should be punished for calling me some very nasty things just because I'm fat (and making comments that were bordering on racism, implying that I should not reproduce because my "disease" would be passed down to my kids). Alla wrote : > But, I also think that redemption of the Slyhterin House is only > possible, when what lies at the heart of their choosing, will > dissappear. When "blood issue" will be come a "non-issue" and yes, it > is still an issue now (remember the password to Slytherin Commons) Del replies : Then the very first thing to do is to kill the 4 Houses as they are. The whole concept was flawed fron the beginning. Trying to correct it is like putting a Band-Aid on a wooden leg. Alla: > > I think we can separate them, because NOBODY seems to dislike Muggle- > Borns except Slyhterins and DE, but everybody, even Arthur has a > patronising attitude towards Muggles. Del replies : Having a patronising attitude towards someone implies necessarily thinking they are inferior to you. You don't patronise your equals or your superiors. I repeat what I said in another post : the WW is prejudiced against the Muggles *first*, its prejudice against the Muggle-borns is only a *consequence*. The Muggle-borns are attacked because they dare contaminate the WW with Muggleness. Most wizards who would eliminate the Muggles can more or less pretend to ignore them (the Muggles), but they deeply resent having to live alongside constant and living reminders of the existence of the Muggle world, and they make those reminders pay. I can pretend that tarentulas and black widows don't exist. But I'll kill any common spider that gets near me. It's not that small spider I'm *really* afraid of. But that small spider has the bad idea of reminding me of my deepest fears, so I have to eliminate it. Del From ellyn337 at earthlink.net Sat Jul 17 18:07:45 2004 From: ellyn337 at earthlink.net (mclellyn) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:07:45 -0000 Subject: Whose point of view ? (A Challenge!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106677 aleesahn wrote: > > SO, here is my challenge: > > <...we would possibly know all about dumbledore's plans for harry, > > > Off to work on my own challenge, > Aleesahn Gadfly McLellyn writes: I'd like to address two of these challenges. I've posted before my theory of why Dumbledore trusts Snape though I know it is way too hard on this format to find the threads. My theory (post 79500 with much canon quoted) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/79500 is that Snape made the potion that saved Harry. This solves two mysteries: why Dumbledore trusts Snape and why Snape hates Harry. Snape hates Harry because Harry's fame should really be Snape's fame. Of course, Snape can't claim that fame as it would put him in mortal danger, but I think it makes him bitter that he can't get credit for his cleverness. Now for Percy. JK Rowling said in her interview on Biography that she has borrowed from folklore to "suit her purposes". I think that is Percy's story. I think the Weasley family has something to do with King Arthur and his Knights of the Roundtable. As JKR borrows so much on mythology, I bought a book called "The Ultimate Encyclopedia of Mythology" by Arthur Cotterell and Rachel Storm, Hermes House publisher. In the Myths of the Celtic World section on P162 is a piece on Percival "the Perfect Fool". He was a Knight of King Arthur's and known as the "Simple Knight". This reminds me of Percy as he tends to simplify everything into black and white issues. Is there anyone out there more knowledgable about King Arthur's Court to see if there are more ties to the Weasley names? Gadfly McLellyn From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 18:16:27 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:16:27 -0000 Subject: Percy...was Ron's "poor me" syndrome. In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.1.20040717012420.00cb8af0@mail.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106678 Don't start me on Percy again :-) ! Shannon wrote : > But it bothers me that Percy aligned himself against his > family after a lifetime of nothing but support and praise from his > parents, Del replies : He turned against them when they withdrew that support and praise. It's just as childish as Harry stopping to like Cedric just because he invited Cho to the Yule Ball. Many people remain childish way into their adulthood where their pride is concerned, it's really not unusual. Shannon wrote : > after four years of knowing Harry and having at least some idea of > what went on with him (especially when his own sister was involved), Del replies : Percy never actually knew Harry. Harry couldn't be less concerned about knowing the first-years personally in OoP, and that's the same age gap between he and Percy. And we just don't *know* what Percy knows about Harry. How much was he told about the CoS, we simply don't know. Molly and Arthur might have kept it all secret. Shannon wrote : > and only one year of employment in a job where his boss couldn't even > be bothered to remember his proper name. Del replies : Only one year, yes, but a year in which he invested himself *very* heavily in his work. The Ministry became his second family so to speak. Shannon wrote : > All the traits that are common in the others never seemed very > visible in Percy. Del replies : I disagree. I wrote a post about that some time ago, post number 97645, where I expressed my conclusions that Percy is *very much* a Weasley indeed. Shannon wrote : > I mean, he couldn't even be bothered to go see his father, who almost > DIED. Del replies : Well yes, he almost died. But by the time Percy learned that, he also learned that his father was *not* going to die after all. He did *not* go through the anxiety that the younger Weasleys experienced, not knowing whether their father was going to live or die. Percy knew right away that Arthur would live. It makes a big difference. Shannon wrote : > And why? Because he didn't want to be held by being associated with > the Weasleys and, by extension, Dumbledore. I find that very hard to > forgive, especially based as it was on the one moment in Percy's life > when his parents were not 100% supportive. Del replies : Let's try to see things from his perspective, shall we ? Let's say my brother has been associating with bad people who keep creating troubles. I warned him about them, but he won't listen to me. We end up ignoring each other and not talking to each other. One day, I learn that he was badly injured while doing something reprehensible for those bad people, but he's going to be OK. Well, of course I'll be scared for him retrospectively. But most of all, I'll be *angry* at him. And I'm not sure I would go and see him in hospital. Not sure at all. Del From meltowne at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 18:44:50 2004 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:44:50 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106679 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "chinaskisnotes" wrote: > Even though Hagrid's name was cleared, he never received a magical > education. I always assumed that without the Hogwart's degree or whatever, > you wouldn't be able to use magic... I mean, he was expelled in his third year- > that's a lot of schooling to miss out on. Yes, but what about the children who have only a small amount of magical ability - does Hogwarts take them all, or are they left to teach themselves (they might be the ones I would want trained the most). What about the kids that don't make it through Hogwarts - I realize we don't know of any who have failed out, but can that happen? Or do they just get kept back an extra year like Flint? What about those that only get 1 or 2 OWLs? Do they continues at Hogwarts or is their schooling done? I don't think having the diploma makes a difference - F&G won't have one, will they? From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sat Jul 17 18:45:34 2004 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 19:45:34 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Pureblood attitudes and the word "racism" References: <1090026303.13896.96368.m22@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002b01c46c2e$3f0e1740$704b6d51@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 106680 Carol asked: >But we do see what might better be termed "prejudice" among people who >are all of the same race (Harry and Draco, Lily and Snape, Diary!Tom >and his petrified or murdered victims, the real Tom and his own >family). How can it possibly be racism if they're all of the same >race, including the Muggles as well as the Muggleborns? And if it >isn't based on race, what, exactly, is it based on? It seems, first of all, to be based on "lineage". If you've got a tapestry, or some equivalent measure of the antiquity of your "pure" magical ancestry, it appears to be prestigious. Why? Certainly not because it's an indication of your magical ability: someone with no lineage can be far more powerful as a wizard than others of pure lineage. Nor is there any evidence that lineage is an avenue to power. I think that if there had been any requirement for the Minister, members of the Wizenagemot, or any of the other institutions, to be of ancient lineage, then it would have been mentioned by now (and perhaps been a more solid target for Hermione's quest for justice than the problematic one of house elves...) I wonder, instead, whether the prestige is bound up with the process by which the WW seperated itself from the Muggle world. I've suggested elsewhere that self-awareness by wizarding folk of their seperate nature from Muggles was a result of urbanisation and the coming together of wizards for the first time, gradually extending, under the whip of Muggle persecution, to embrace more and more wizards until, finally, the Statute of Secrecy formalised what had been a reality for most wizards for a long time. At _that_ time, "ancient lineage" could well have been far more important: possibly it _was_ then the case that government was reserved for "pureblood" wizards (just as it was to the aristocracy in our own world). If you double the length of a generation to allow for the greater wizarding lifespan, then that's not really so long ago (5 generations or so). A wizard generation could be even longer than that. But nowadays ancient lineage is no longer a gateway to power: instead of an aristocracy, the WW is now a bureaucracy. Entry is on wizarding ability and merit (and probably a large proportion of the Hogwarts graduates go on into the MoM). Apart from their feelings of superiority (and presumably the kind of inherited wealth that the Malfoys and the Blacks appear to have), what else do the wizarding aristocracy have? Just resentment and prejudice against the way things are, turning easily to prejudice against wizards without "lineage". I have no thoughts on whether the transition from aristocracy to bureaucracy was an event or a process, and don't know if it's ever been discussed here. Might be an interesting aside on the history of the WW. If Prof. Binns is out there anywhere, I'd welcome his thoughts! Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From meltowne at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 18:52:59 2004 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:52:59 -0000 Subject: Lily's sacrifice - Voldemort's 'Mark' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106681 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dcgmck" wrote: > Saraquel: > > > > To take things further, what does it mean to say LV MARKED H as his > > equal. It can be taken as a literal thing, as in his scar. But it > > is also possible to interpret (this is a use of the word in England > > and quite probably elsewhere I don't know) the meaning of MARK to > > be 'to realise' as in 'Mark my words'. Now that's something LV > > hasn't done yet. At the end of GoF he most definitely sees Harry > as his inferior. But tha's starting a whole new discussion..... > > This is something that has been bothering me ever since I first read > that pesky prophecy. I do not see Voldemort as recognizing Harry, or > anyone else for that matter, as an equal. > > In fact, the only one I could see Voldemort recognizing as an equal > is his younger self, Tom Riddle. I think that Tom still exists > somewhere inside Voldemort. Harry's blood might even have reawaken > that human portion of him, and LV cannot coexist with TR. > > Since there are elipses involved, I am not yet convinced as to > who "he" is each time the word appears in Trelawney's prophecy, no > matter what Dumbledore says. Everyone knows prophecies make so much > more sense after they are fulfilled... What if the 7th month means the 7th month following the prophesy, not the 7th month of the year? Harry bieng allowed to take the orb from the ministry doesn't really tell us anything, because the ministry set it up so it could only be taken by those the Ministry thinks are the subjects - what if the Ministry is wrong? Or what if "approaches" didn't mean "is about to be born" but is more litteral? What if it was someone born at the end of July many years earlier, but who is approaching Hogsmead that night? Or approached something else? From entropymail at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 19:29:44 2004 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 19:29:44 -0000 Subject: Lily's sacrifice - Voldemort's 'Mark' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106682 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meltowne" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dcgmck" wrote: > > Saraquel: > > > > > > To take things further, what does it mean to say LV MARKED H as > his > > > equal. It can be taken as a literal thing, as in his scar. Ack! Having a bit of trouble keeping track of this thread, as it's morphed into a few different ones! Anyway, I would like to mention that I don't think the rune/scar on Harry's head is the "mark" the prophecy spoke of at all. The scar doesn't make Harry his equal. If the Lily's Protection Charm theory is correct (and I think it is!) the scar is simply a sign that her protection of Harry was sealed when Voldemort attempted to harm him. JKR has thrown us a big fat red herring, and wants us to believe that the scar is a "curse scar" (even though no one seems to know for sure if they actually exist) and the "mark" described in the prophecy. It seems much more likely that Voldemort has, unwittingly, "marked" Harry with something far more valuable. We already know that Harry is a Parselmouth, can produce a corporeal patronus (! at his age !) and has a certain "occlumency"-like connection with Voldemort. Clearly, these traits were a result of Voldemort's attempted murder of Harry. Harry would never have these powers if not for Voldemort's backfired AK curse. Voldemort has "marked" Harry with powers that will, given enough time, allow Harry to grow into a far more powerful wizard than he would have ordinarily become. He has marked him with powers that will allow Harry to grow into a wizard equal to Voldemort. Clearly, DD is aware of this and, as each year passes, seems to be stalling for more and more time. He knows that Harry has the raw talent. Now he needs the time and experience to develop these talents that Voldie has so graciously given him. :: Entropy :: From meltowne at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 19:34:48 2004 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 19:34:48 -0000 Subject: Shrinking Potions & who are Fred & George? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106683 I was rereading PoA, and came upon the reference to Neville's shrinking potion - which turned his frog into a tadpole, and then Snape gave him the antidote. The Shrinking potion de-ages the user, so I bet there are other ways of doing this as well. We've seen one of them in the department of mysteries, where the DE went back & forth from full age to baby, and ended up with a baby head. It seems he also ended up with the intellect of the baby. LV was researching was to become immortal, and maybe the aging process was part of that research. We don't really know what happened to the Prewetts, but what if LV discovered a way to de-age them permanently, as an offshoot of his research? What if they were babies again, their parents dead, and their sister Molly had to take them in and raise them (again!)? We don't really know much about the original F&G, but maybe Molly knows enough about them to be concerned that they would involve themselves in similar behavior as they grow up the second time. She knows their original fate, and doesn't want to see even worse happen the next time. That might also explain why they are not part of "the whole family" who became prefects. Why did JKR show us the effect of that potion, when we don't know the effect of many others? There are so many references to time. I also wonder who Harry is - and Tom Riddle. JKR said that calling Riddle the last remaining Ancestor was not a mistake - will he be sent back in time to become Slytherin's father? Will Harry turn out to be a young Godric who will go back in time to found Hogwarts? Was Tom Riddle (the muggle) really TMR's father, or did his mother just use his name? Who was Marvolo? From navarro198 at hotmail.com Sat Jul 17 19:36:23 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 19:36:23 -0000 Subject: Cousins by marriage ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106684 > According to Mutt's explanation of genealogical terminology, then, > Molly's cousin could have married a cousin of Sirius, thus making > them cousins by marriage without reference to Arthur Weasley, right? > > "dcgmck" Correct. As I interpret genealogy, Ted Tonks is Sirius' "cousin-in- law", usually shortened to just "cousin", because Ted married Sirius' first cousin. Ted Tonks' brother, if he has one, would be Sirius' "cousin by marriage". What the "by marriage" means is that there is no blood relationship between you. Two people are part of the same extended family only because two other people in that family got married some time in the past; you both share relatives but aren't related youselves. It makes that "by marriage" relation an honorary member of your family, but there is no legal or blood relationship. I think that Sirius was telling Harry that he was related to Arthur and "connected" to Molly even before those two married each other. Hope this helps reduce the confusion. Ravenclaw Bookworm From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sat Jul 17 19:45:23 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 19:45:23 -0000 Subject: Harry & the Fisher King (Re: Harry and Hagrid ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106685 vivian: > I was also wondering if perhaps the series will end at the > begining, back at Godric's Hollow or perhaps with the original > split between the founders of Hogwarts. I can't help but think > that JKR is always introducing the past (and I think she has done > it in someway or another in every book). Jen: When does JKR's story begin? The true story doesn't begin at the Dursleys, even though that's the portal through which we readers begin the story. My vote is for the split between the founders, even though I'm not particulary interested in that storyline. The Prophecy & Godric's Hollow are then just events within the 1000-year timeline of the story. That would mean whatever takes place between Harry/Voldemort could potentially heal the divide in the WW. My speculation is starting to remind me of the wounded Fisher King in the legend of the Holy Grail, where he & his desolated country can only be healed if an 'innocent' comes to his castle and asks the correct question: "Whom does the Grail serve?" or "What ails thee?" This is an interesting analogy because Harry is definitely the innocent who arrives at the castle, but he doesn't ask questions!! When will he ask the crucial question and what will that question be? vivian: > What's left to know? The events of Godric's Hollow, the break-up > between the founders, and the torture of Neville's parents. > > How will we find out about GH? Will it be through a penseive memory, > or a confession, we don't know yet? The same goes for the > Longbottoms, with the added possibility that one of the parents will > snap out of their illness to explain all. Jen: I don't know how Harry would take hearing the story of Godric's Hollow from Snape or Peter, but those two seem the most likely to have information. And I do hope Alice will recover enough to tell her story. That scene where Harry saw Alice in the Order photo, and knew immediately she was Neville's mom--I found that heartbreaking. If JKR has to make Harry's life hell, which she's promising she'll do, could she at least give Neville a little break?!? Jen Reese From entropymail at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 19:52:39 2004 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 19:52:39 -0000 Subject: James, Lily, Harry's protection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106686 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dcgmck" wrote: > In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "entropymail" > wrote: > > Somehow, James and Lily realize that Voldemort has found out where > > they are hiding. Knowing that there is no way out of this, Lily > > decides to perform a protection charm on Harry, using her knowledge > of > > Ancient Magic. She performs the charm and Lily tricks Voldemort into > > killing her first, before Harry ("No, not Harry! Kill me instead!"). > > With this sacrifice of her own life, Harry's protection charm is > > sealed. A rune of protection (eihwaz) is formed on Harry's forehead. > dcgmck: > On the positive side, I like the idea that the charm Lily sets on > Harry is a multi-part protection culminating in her death. It is > reminiscent of the concept behind moat and castle construction. > Additionally, it follows the model Dumbledore invokes on the Dursley > household, which is sealed when Petunia accepts the onus of caretaker > for her nephew. Thus each sister completes a magic ritual of > protection through active acceptance of the responsibility and its > attendant consequences. > > If you think about ancient magic that way, there is even a parallel > in Voldemort's resurrection potion, which requires the bloody > sacrifice of a willing volunteer: Wormtail's hand. I've just read this bit, and love the way it fits in with the theory of Lily's Protection Charm. The "ancient magic" that Dumbledore talks about seems to follow a particular pattern, or have certain requirements. This may also explain why "ancient magic" has largely been forgotten, and is not used lightly by common witches and wizards. The costs are so high that the circumstances would have to be quite dire for the average person in the WW to want to attempt it. :: Entropy :: From patientx3 at aol.com Sat Jul 17 19:56:06 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 19:56:06 -0000 Subject: Sirius Luring Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106687 HunterGreen previously: >Except that Sirius *still* doesn't feel remorseful for his actions. >In PoA he sneers about it, commenting that it 'served Snape right'. >Now I don't think that he actually wanted to *kill* Snape, I just >think that he doesn't get how serious what he did was. Lissa replied: >>> Dead on. I just want to believe Sirius grew up some. ::sigh:: Like a lot of people, his and James' attitude in the pensieve was totally repellent to me... probably because I have a fair guess at how Snape feels! <<< Demetra wrote: >> This is what bothers me most about Sirius, the fact that he apparently never matured beyond an impulsive teenager. By all accounts James did, why not Sirius? I mean *before* Azkaban, he was at least 21-22 by then. I think the saddest aspect of Sirius' life is that he died before he grew up. << HunterGreen: Hmm, maybe I should clarify. By all rights it appears Sirius leared *nothing* from the prank incident. But I do think he has grown up at least a tiny little bit since the pensieve incident. Yes, in all the scenes with Snape he acts like a teenager, but for the most part Snape doesn't act too mature either, and we do know that Snape has changed since he was fifteen. When Harry *asks* about the incident in the pensieve, Sirius says very clearly that he's not proud of it (of course, that makes me wonder why he called Snape 'Snivellus' earlier in the book, but oh well). He's rather derisive of both him and James' actions when they were fifteen. I don't think he grew up as *much* as James, but its possible that he matured a little bit. In GoF when he's not being imprisoned he acts much more like an adult. Perhaps Sirius is the type of person that was still on the road to maturity in his early 20's. Many people don't really start acting like adults until they're in their late 20's or early 30's. I wonder if he was acting more in character in GoF or more in character in PoA and OotP. I'd like to say GoF, but we'll never know. From n2fgc at arrl.net Sat Jul 17 20:09:03 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 16:09:03 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: On Fawkes and the Forest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106688 From: dcgmck | Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 11:33 | The retained memories as one of the causes for Fawkes' amazing | intelligence makes sense. While I don't think that he is Godric | Gryffindor, how do you feel about the idea that Fawkes was GG's | familiar and that Dumbledore 'inherited' Fawkes, as will Harry in his | turn? [Lee]: Possible...very possible. And, also possible, that Fawkes will be a constant fixture at Hogwarts, moving from Headmaster to Headmaster, which would preclude Harry getting him. Who knows...Only the JKR knows...Oops--wrong series! But the mind could be the shadow of JKR. :-) Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me; | n2fgc at arrl.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From happybean98 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 20:14:40 2004 From: happybean98 at yahoo.com (happybean98) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:14:40 -0000 Subject: Is Snape a Vampire (was Re: How did Sirius lure Severus into the Willow? (was: J In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106689 > Pippin: > At the risk of sounding like a certain well-known memoirist, it > depends on the meaning of 'is'. Meaning, he *was* linked, but > the spell altered that permanently, so there aren't any links > *now*. I take that "erm" as a verbal squirm, as in "You guys are > going to kill me when you realize how misleading this answer is. > But, hey, it's true as far as it goes, which isn't as far as you > think." > > > I realize that most people have put the clues, or should I say > "clues" down to a severe case of Evans-itis -- so be it. > happybean98: I wondered about JKR's comment too. When asked whether there was a connection between Snape and Vampires, wasn't her response something like "I don't think so." I remembered thinking it was a bit evasive when I read it. Anyway, I still think there's something to all the vampire hints. I saw Pippin's list in the lexicon, but I noticed a few additional clues. I noticed Snape seemed curiously interested in his reflection in the Foe-Glass in GoF p. 679. "Snape followed him, looking into the Foe-Glass, where his own face was still visible, glaring into the room." If the vampires in Potterverse are like the vampires in Bram Stoker's "Dracula", they would not have reflections in mirrors, or shadows. If Snape is a vampire/part vampire, this could explain his curiosity regarding his image in the Foe-Glass. Maybe he had never seen his reflection before, (even though the Foe-Glass is not a mirror). The mirror issue could also explain his greasy hair. Also, in OoP p. 592, Harry breaks into Snape's mind briefly and sees, "A greasy-haired teenager sat alone in a dark bedroom, pointing his wand at the ceiling, shooting down flies..." There is a character called Renfield in Stoker's "Dracula" who is somehow being possessed by Dracula. The character continually catches flies in large quantities and then uses them to lure spiders. He then gets enough spiders to lure a bird, then he asks for a kitten. The idea is that he continually tries to attract larger animals in order to drink their blood. Occasionally, he ends up eating all the flies because his efforts don't work. I don't know if Potterverse vampires are similar to Stoker's vampires, but there might be a connection. happybean98 From mhbobbin at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 18:59:27 2004 From: mhbobbin at yahoo.com (mhbobbin) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:59:27 -0000 Subject: Did James and Lily know about the prophecy? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106690 Aggie wrote: I didn't think that James, Lily, Frank, Alice etc knew about the prophecy. It's not mentioned either way in canon (is it?). It was my understanding that only DD, the eavesdropper and then consequently, LV knew. Not sure where I got this idea from but it's good to know that I'm not the only one! David Gabbard: I'm not sure if James and Lily knew about the prophecy, but Prisoner of Azkaban, American Edition, Page 204: "...Fudge dropped his voice and proceeded in a sort of low rumble. Not many people are aware that the Potters knew You-Know_who was after them..." mhbobbin writes: Further to this passage, it seems to follow IMO that Lily and James probably did know about the prophecy. Even (in PoA) 12 years after the GH attack, it was not well known--per Fudge anyway-- that the Potters had actually gone into hiding, and knew that Voldemort was specifically seeking them. It's easier to keep the motivation to their hiding, including the prophecy, secret if you keep the hiding secret too. Had one of the motivations for their hiding not been the prophecy--why would it not be well known that they were in hiding? If the WW knew that Voldemort was specifically after the Potters,and the Potters knew it, wouldn't they ask, like we have been asking, why? DD was working closely with the Potters and the Longbottoms in the OotP. When he advised the Potters, and maybe the Longbottoms, to go into hiding because LV was looking for them, it would have made sense to also tell them of the prophecy. Perhaps he didn't think they could handle this knowledge but I have trouble believing that. They had, after all, thrice defied LV. But then DD sometimes baffles. And in the Harry's dementor-induced flashbacks, he hears a man believed to be James yelling to Lily to take Harry and run. That is certainly not definitive evidence as any parents would try to protect their baby, but I believe for all the reasons above that Harry's parents knew about the prophecy. As for the Prophecy--has Dumbledore told us everything about the prophecy yet? I wasn't satisfied that the prophecy was so important to the present--would LV know how to defeat Harry now if he only had the second half of the prophecy? I don't think so---but keeping him ignorant is never a bad idea. As for the Longbottoms: Why were the Longbottoms tortured? Other than revenge or because they might know what happened to LV. Etc. I wonder if Bellatrix and friends thought the Longbottoms knew the second half of the prophecy? and thought that might help them find LV. mhbobbin From n2fgc at arrl.net Sat Jul 17 20:44:09 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 16:44:09 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry in the Context In-Reply-To: <40F3DCA2.18175.FCB210@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106691 [Shaun clarifies]: | In the context of public schools "fagging" referred to the practice | of using younger boys as servants for senior boys. The practice | differed widely between schools. In some schools, junior boys were | assigned to a particular senior boy and did things like clean his | shoes, make him cups of tea etc. In other schools, all the junior | boys were expected to work for all the senior boys as a group. [Lee]: Ah--the Plebe thing, huh? Or peon...I know of what you speak, not through personal experience, but just can't put my finger on the correct American terminology. There's always "hazing," but that often means more than servitude. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me; | n2fgc at arrl.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sat Jul 17 21:31:37 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 17:31:37 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Don't the Death Eaters know that Snape's a spy? Message-ID: <155.39d48faf.2e2af4b9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106692 In a message dated 7/17/2004 10:26:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk writes: Although I agree that Lucius and Snape *are* old school friends, I do wonder how Lucius doesn't realise how close to DD Snape is. ==================== Sherrie here: I've been thinking - WERE Lucius and Severus that close in school? It's established in OotP that Lucius is 41 years old - that makes him four or five years older than Sev. True, they WERE at school together in the sense that they were housemates - but Lucius was at least a fourth year when Sev arrived. How much attention would Lucius have paid this scrawny, greasy kid? I doubt Harry could even name most of the first year Gryffindors in his fourth year - other than the annoying Dennis Creevey, of course. Unless...the Snape and Malfoys families were close when they were small? Perhaps both the sons of first-generation Death Eaters - those school friends of Tom Riddle who were the first to learn the name Lord Voldemort? Hmmm... Sherrie (who's been thinking FAR too much lately) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sat Jul 17 21:37:28 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 17:37:28 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pureblood Vs. Halfblood Vs Fullblood Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106693 In a message dated 7/17/2004 10:53:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, quigonginger at yahoo.com writes: Lavender has been seen as a Muggleborn by some listees as she didn't know what the Grim was. I say that sounds reasonable. ====================== Sherrie here: Per JKR's own notes (seen in the screencaps from the "Harry & Me" biography special on A&E - you can access some of them at http://www.fictionalley.org/harryandme/), Lavender Brown is a pureblood. Ron knew what the Grim was because his family had experience with it (his Uncle Bilius, from whom Ron gets his middle name...hmmm....). Perhaps Lavender's family hasn't had that experience, so she wouldn't need to know about the Grim. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 21:39:16 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 21:39:16 -0000 Subject: Will the Slytherins leave Hogwarts ? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106694 In OoP, the Sorting Hat's new song contains a lot of interesting insights, but as I was reading out tonight, the one that touched me most was this one passage : "So Hogwarts worked in harmony for several happy years, but then discord crept among us feeding on our faults and fears. The Houses that, like pillars four, had once held up our school, now turned upon each other and, divided, sought to rule. And for a while it seemed the school must meet an early end, what with dueling and with fighting and the clash of friend on friend. And at last there came a morning when old Slytherin departed and though the fighting then died out he left us quite downhearted. And never since the founders four were whittled down to three have the Houses been united as they once were meant to be. " We've never seen the Houses work together in harmony. But we sure have seen discord creep among the students. We've seen the Houses try to rule, especially Slytherin and Gryffindor. We've seen dueling and fighting and clashing of friend on friend, and things only seem to get worse as time passes. In OoP, some students from different Houses try to work together, but they have problems getting along (the animosity between the Twins and Zacharias Smith) even though their motivation is pretty strong. And none of them seem able to get over their common dislike of the Slytherins. With LV out in the open, I'm guessing that those problems are only going to increase. The pressure on the Slytherins in particular will become nearly unbearable, and I'm afraid the other Houses won't do much to help them. So my concern is this : will we see the day when the Slytherins will decide to leave the school for good, just like old Slytherin did ? And what effects would it have on the remaining students ? Del From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sat Jul 17 22:00:51 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:00:51 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Snape a Vampire (was Re: How did Sirius lure Severus i... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106695 In a message dated 7/17/2004 4:21:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, happybean98 at yahoo.com writes: happybean98: I wondered about JKR's comment too. When asked whether there was a connection between Snape and Vampires, wasn't her response something like "I don't think so." I remembered thinking it was a bit evasive when I read it. ===================== Sherrie here: I didn't take it that way at all - I took it as a "verbal eyeroll", as in, "You're kidding me, right? No, really, you've GOT to be..." I personally read the emphasis as on "think" - as the kids say, "I...don't...THINK so!" But I guess your reading will depend on whether you're wedded to the Snape-as-vampire theory - and personally, I'm not even on SPEAKING terms with it! Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 00:04:52 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 00:04:52 -0000 Subject: Vanquishing Voldemort - The Ultimate Punishment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106696 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aggiepaddy" wrote: > >Steve: > > > > Here is the ultimate punishment for Voldemort. > > > > To be immortal, stripped of his powers, and imprisoned. > > > > Immortality sounds good, but forever is such a long time. For > > Voldemort/Riddle it would be century after century of no where to > > go, nothing to do, just endless wasted hours passing by for > > eternity. > > > > Plus, living forever, doesn't mean being young forever, or being > > in good health forever, or being of sound mind forever. Earthly > > immortality is highly overrated. > Aggie: > The only problem with this theory is that it gives LV the chance to > rebuild himself. The chances of him then returning to power are > quite high considering everything he's been through to get where he > is now. I know that he'll be imprisoned but I doubt that would stop > him!! > > This would just be fitting to Hollywood, leave enough ambiguity so > there's always room for the sequel!! Asain_lovr2: You are missing the key point. The Ultimate Punishment for Voldemort - To be immortal, STRIPPED OF HIS POWERS, and imprisoned. I assumed people would understand what I meant by 'stripped of his powers', but in hindsight, I didn't make that part clear. There is are speculative endings in which the final cataclysmic event that allows Harry to defeat Voldemort, leaves Harry and/or Voldemort as muggles. That is one or both of them have completely lost their magical powers. Some even speculate that Harry will realize in advance, that the price of defeating Voldemort is the loss of his own magical power. So, my premise is not that the court magically removes his powers before sending Voldemort to prison, but that the loss of his power are a complete and irreversable part of attempting to kill Harry again. In this case, he is not going to rebuild himself while in prison. This also assumes that despite his reference to 'embracing mortatlity again' that Voldemort now has the same body that he had before he tried to kill Harry the first time. Which means while he is not prefectly corporally immortal, by most standards, he can not be killed. Since, Voldemort has his snake-like body, and not Tom Riddles handsome body, Voldemort did not revert back to his original mortal body, but back to his pre-Harry encounter semi-immortal body. If all my suppositions fall into place, then Voldemort is screwed, he is trapped in an ever deteriorating physical body, but at the same time can never suffer true death, and because I say so, he can't cause his physical body to die (like jump of the roof or hang himself) and continue on as Vapormort. His magical powers have been completely lost, so even as Vapormort, he could never recover. Think of the irony, Voldemort wants immortality, he sees it as his greatest achievement, and in the end, as I always knew it would, that immortality becomes his greatest curse. ...sweet delicious heavenly irony ...I love it. He's screwed, you heard it here first. Steve/asian_lovr2 From n2fgc at arrl.net Sun Jul 18 00:06:36 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:06:36 -0400 Subject: Clarification On Terminology Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106697 Hi Folks, I'm posting this to the Canon list as well as the Chatter list so, if the elves feel we should take it off the main we can discuss further on the chat. My question is regarding certain terms used and where/how they can be defined. First, let's try "wizard" and "warlock". For the most part, people are referred to as witches or wizards, but then the term warlock pops up and I'm at a loss as to what distinguishes a wizard from a warlock or visa versa. The second conundrum is "charm" and "spell. They seem to be interchangeable, but I'm not altogether sure. And, things like the Reducto "curse" which sounds like it could be just a super-shrinking spell...etc. Can someone with a really logical head enlighten or clarify the mud of confusion in which I wallow? Please? Thanks, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me; | n2fgc at arrl.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me; | n2fgc at arrl.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Jul 18 00:07:08 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 00:07:08 -0000 Subject: Goyle and Babyhead (was Re: Draco Malfoy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106698 Carol wrote: > And to return to the original question, where is Goyle Sr.? If he > really wasn't in the MoM, why is Draco still on good terms with Goyle > Jr., who acts as if his father is in Azkaban, too? Clearly he isn't, > unless it's a flint, so what's up? And is Crabbe Sr. rather than Goyle > Sr. in St. Mungo's closed ward? > > Carol, expecting an encounter between Harry and one or more DEs' sons > next time Harry visits St. Mungo's Potioncat: I'm confused. (All together, "What else is new?") Why would the Senior Goyle's absence affect the boys? Only 12 of whatever number of DEs go to the MoM. Either LV chose the 12 himself or he had Malfoy make up the list. On this particular mission, Crabbe went, Goyle didn't. Didn't we see about 30 DEs at the Graveyard? Crabbe is just one of many who were not assigned to this mission. We could come up with lots of guesses why he wasn't there or what his role will be...(He'll beat up Mark Evans in the next book.) But I don't see how it would affect the relationship of the boys unless he had refused to go. (In which case, there will be a funeral.) Harry named Nott, Crabbe, Golye and Malfoy earlier in the year and now the MoM is taking that testimony more seriously. So all the boys have reason to dislike Harry. I suspect Nott Sr. and whoever Babyhead is will be at St Mungos. And I would expect Babyhead to be in the same ward as the Longbottoms, Lockhart and Agnes. (For the drama of it. I can't see it in a RW hospital) Potioncat who will never catch up with this list this summer! From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 00:20:00 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 00:20:00 -0000 Subject: Point of Order - Silver Killing Werewolves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106699 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat2001" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Anastasia" > > Additionally, Pettrigrew's hand is out of SILVER which kills > > werwolves. > Marianne here: > > I don't think silver kills werewolves in the JKR universe. There was > that small scene during our first visit to 12 Grimmauld Place OoP > where Dung asks Sirius whether the wine goblets are solid silver. > Sirius assures him they are, and, later, Remus is described having > raised his goblet to take a drink of wine. ...edited... > > Marianne Asian_lovr2: There is an on-going misconception here about werewolves and silver. While it has not been stated specifically by JKR, this model does fit the standard werewolf legends. Werewolves are NOT killed BY silver, rather, they have to be kill WITH silver. Drinking from a silver goblet doesn't do it. The instrument of their death must be made of silver in order for that death to be permanent. Example, their heart must be pierced with a bullet, arrow tip, sword, steak, or spear tip that is made of silver. If the same instrument of death in made of brass, steel, iron, copper, wood, or whatever, the werewolf will either come back to life in a short time, or will not die at all. Either way, the wound will usually heal itself. So, to kill a werewolf, the instrument of his death must be made from elemental silver. Of course, elemental silver means it must truly be made of the metal element silver, not just metal or other substance of a silver color. I suspect Wormtail's new hand is merely a ghostly silver in color, and not true elemental silver. Sometimes a wood instrument of death is sufficient for vampires and werewolves, but to be absolutely sure, it's best to kill them with a Silver instrument of death. Just passing it along. Steve/asian_lovr2 From caseylane at wideopenwest.com Sat Jul 17 05:34:45 2004 From: caseylane at wideopenwest.com (Casey) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 05:34:45 -0000 Subject: HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106700 I was just at the Lexicon and discovered that our own Remin Lupin is a half blood. "One muggle parent or grandparent". Casey From briggielockyer at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 10:08:08 2004 From: briggielockyer at yahoo.com (Brigitte Lockyer) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 03:08:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily's sacrifice, was (James gave his life, why no protection from him?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040717100808.7402.qmail@web54007.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106701 saraquel_omphale wrote: Saraquel suggested (106592)that the priori incantatem indicates that the only spell from LVs wand killed Lily, scarred Harry and rebounded on Voldemort. Which leaves the question as to how Harry got the scar, if not directly from the curse. Entropy throws in (paraphrased) Lily performed a charm to protect Harry sealed by her death which caused the scar. > > Dumbledore may have recognized the eihwaz rune when he saw Harry's > > scar for the first time, realizing the Ancient Magic behind it, and > > that is why he decided to leave Harry "marked". > Tina questions > I came to understand that the scar was where Voldemort > marked Harry (as his equal). > > In OOtP chapter 37, pp 826-827, DD says "I guessed fifteen years > ago, when I saw the scar upon your forehead, what it might mean. I > guessed that it might be the sign of connection forged between you > and Voldemort." Saraquel responds: The wording of this bit could very well support Entropy's theory, which I like very much. The scar is not a mark made by LV, but a sign reminding of Lily's sacrifice which was perhaps burned (forged) into his skin by the power of LVs curse. Tina also says: > Then on p 843 DD goes on to say "You are forgetting the next part of > the prophecy, the final identifying feature of the boy who could > vanquish Voldemort.... Voldemort himself would 'mark him as his > equal.' And so he did, Harry. He chose you, not Neville. He gave > you the scar that has proved both blessing and curse." > > It seems clear that Voldemort gave him the scar and not Lily. Now, Saraquel continues: I do agree, that at first sight this would seem to indicate something more direct. However, the scar on Harry's forehead only came into being because LV cursed Lily, so he did do it even though he didn't realize at the time that was what he was doing. To take things further, what does it mean to say LV MARKED H as his equal. It can be taken as a literal thing, as in his scar. But it is also possible to interpret (this is a use of the word in England and quite probably elsewhere I don't know) the meaning of MARK to be 'to realise' as in 'Mark my words'. Now that's something LV hasn't done yet. At the end of GoF he most definitely sees Harry as his inferior. But tha's starting a whole new discussion..... Brigitte: I think you all have made some very valid arguments and points about Lily doing a protection charm on Harry. However, I think that Tina is correct in saying that LV did curse Harry to produce the scar. LV tired to curse Harry and in doing so caused the lightning bolt (as a symbol of Lily's protection) to scar Harry's forehead. LV had to curse Harry directly to be able to transfer his some of his powers, like parseltongue on to Harry and I think that his powers were channeled into Harry by the lightning scar. Maybe part of Lily's charm was to allow for the transferal of LV's power unto Harry. As to Saraquel's observation that the prior incantatem didn't produce a spell between Lily and Bertha, the only explanation I can give is maybe it only shows spells that were completed correctly. Since the spell backfired maybe the wand didn't register it as a completed spell? Brigitte --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lysandrabellargus at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jul 17 21:28:20 2004 From: lysandrabellargus at yahoo.co.uk (Sandra) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 21:28:20 -0000 Subject: Vanquishing Voldemort (Nick) In-Reply-To: <20040717155102.55971.qmail@web90006.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106702 Suzanne Chiles wrote: As Dumbledore says in OoTP: "We both know there are other ways of destroying a man, Tom ... Indeed, your failure to understand that has always been your greatest weakness." David Gabbard added: I'm glad you brought this quotation back up to the surface - What is Dumbledore referring to when he says "We both know there are other ways of destroying a man..." Why/What do they BOTH know? Have either one of them already destroyed a man in a way worse than killing him? Did Bellatrix just do that to Sirius? Is Dumbledore referring to "vapormort"? Sandra: This sentence and also DD calling him by his name Tom has also made me wonder a lot. And there is DD as `the only one he ever feared'. Why is that? What is the story between DD and Tom? Is it the CoS, but DD could not prove it was Tom, and he was just a teacher then? Some posts ago Boyd posted a theory with Slytherin `possessing' Tom which then led to LV. Very interesting. Also, if DD is the only one who LV has ever feared, why can DD `only' withstand LV but can not ultimately vanquish him? (A part form the prophecy!) What does the young Harry have, that the almost omnipotent (some posters have even called him god-like) DD has not? Passion? Lily's eyes!? ; ) Sandra who was tempted to merge two threads From lysandrabellargus at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jul 17 21:35:27 2004 From: lysandrabellargus at yahoo.co.uk (Sandra) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 21:35:27 -0000 Subject: Re James the berk and Lily the angel Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106703 On James in Snapes memory: For me this episode in the book was always the `typical' deconstruction for/by Harry of the hero image of his father. A very important way to `grow up' and find his own way in life and look into his own strengths. And also a tiny step towards reconciling Snape and Harry, although that never took place really, very unfortunate IMO. In OoP Sirius wanted Harry so much to be like James but that ultimately needed to fail. And especially in PoA James is painted so much as Harry's ultimate hero, with no flaws, just a `perfect' memory. Which then brings me to Lily, as the pure, perfect, angel-like? I do see her like this at the moment too, but isn't that just a `perfect' memory too? Sandra From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Jul 18 00:57:51 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 00:57:51 -0000 Subject: Snape's redemptive possibilites (was re: Snape's Destiny et al) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106704 snipping first posts. Carol: >snip >They didn't begin again > until the end of GoF, when Snape (now about 36) was summoned to the > graveyard--and almost certainly didn't go because he couldn't apparate > from Hogwarts. Potioncat: I'm not sure if he was there or not. We don't see Snape at Hogwarts that day until after Harry returns from the Graveyard. I "think" he stayed at Hogwarts, but there is enough time, I think, that Snape might have done it. Particularly since DD and Snape both know LV is coming back. They must have planned out how to handle a recall of DEs. One is that Snape would go the other that he explains, possilby via Malfoy, why he wasn't able to come. >Carol: Presumably he does attend DE meetings between GoF and OoP > because he is reporting to the Order on the DE's plans, showing them the plans of a building (the MoM?) for one thing--but the DEs are not engaged in torturing and killing at this point. They're concentrating on the one thing that the newly resurrected Voldemort cares about at the moment--finding a way to get to the Prophecy. For the rest of the year, Snape is at Hogwarts, unable to attend any meetings, but perhaps reporting to Voldemort or Malfoy under the pretense of being a spy for the DE side. Potioncat: Why wouldn't he be able to attend? Of course, if LV wants Snape to keep his cover, he won't summon him when Snape is on duty. But I'm sure the teachers are allowed some time off? They don't really live at Hogwarts 24/7 for the entire school year. Potioncat who isn't really arguing against Carol's point, just pointing out some other options. and who is considering Snape innocent until proven guilty on the earlier charges acts of horror as a DE. From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Sat Jul 17 22:05:03 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 22:05:03 -0000 Subject: Don't the Death Eaters know that Snape's a spy? In-Reply-To: <155.39d48faf.2e2af4b9@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106705 > aggie: > Although I agree that Lucius and Snape *are* old school friends, I >do wonder how Lucius doesn't realise how close to DD Snape is. > > ==================== > Sherrie here: > > I've been thinking - WERE Lucius and Severus that close in school? > SNIP> > How much attention would Lucius have paid this scrawny, greasy >kid? > SNIP> > Unless...the Snape and Malfoys families were close when they were small? Aggie: I see your point and whilst I agree with that principle I would imagine that the families were quite close. The main reason I think that Snape and Lucius were friends at school is Sirius's comment about Snape being Lucius's lapdog. Snape belonged to a group of Slytherins (most of which became DEs), yet in the pensieve scene he was alone. One reason for this could be that his friends had left school as they were older than him. He started school knowing more of the Dark Arts than most 7th years and I could imagine that even as early as 11, he would find other 11 year olds very tiresome and immature. If the other pensieve scene is to be taken as gospel (and that it was Snape and not Snape Jr) then he was probably an only child. This would mean that if the families were close that he would have been playing with children older than him since he was small. If he wasn't friends with Lucius at school then how did they get so close? I realise that they could have become acquainted with each other at DE meetings, but IMO they don't seem the type of occasion to socialise and make friends. Of course there are 5 or so years where we do not know what he did with himself, after leaving Hogwarts as a student and then returning as a teacher. Maybe he worked for Malfoy in some way. From the description in the pensieve scene it doesn't appear that Snape comes from a privileged background and would have needed an income for those years. Malfoy has no need for a job as he is very wealthy, so it's doubtful they met via work. Maybe, maybe!! Maybe we'll never know for sure!!! But it is fun speculating!!! From jlawlor at gmail.com Sat Jul 17 22:28:15 2004 From: jlawlor at gmail.com (James Lawlor) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 17:28:15 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily's sacrifice - Voldemort's 'Mark' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96773c8804071715282a7700df@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106706 dcgmck: > This is something that has been bothering me ever since I first read > that pesky prophecy. I do not see Voldemort as recognizing Harry, or > anyone else for that matter, as an equal. > James: The way I see it, Voldemort "marked" Harry by trying to kill him first. He felt that Harry was the biggest threat - the one most likely to defeat him. entropy: >Ack! Having a bit of trouble keeping track of this thread, as it's >morphed into a few different ones! Anyway, I would like to mention >that I don't think the rune/scar on Harry's head is the "mark" the >prophecy spoke of at all. The scar doesn't make Harry his equal. If >the Lily's Protection Charm theory is correct (and I think it is!) the >scar is simply a sign that her protection of Harry was sealed when >Voldemort attempted to harm him. JKR has thrown us a big fat red >herring, and wants us to believe that the scar is a "curse scar" (even >though no one seems to know for sure if they actually exist) and the >"mark" described in the prophecy. James: Hmm, that's an interesting theory. But I don't quite see how it would work, since it seems the scar is the link between Voldemort and Harry, with his scar prickling/burning/etc when Voldemort is nearby, having a surge of emotion, etc. Unless..... Hmmm! Interesting. Unless, perhaps thats when part of Lily's protection is activated, and the stronger the protection is having to "work" against Voldemort's influence (eg, when Voldemort briefly posesses Harry) or serving as an "early warning" (of the Legilimency-lilke connection between Harry and Voldemort or Voldemort's presence). Quite interesting. And after all, JKR specifically mentions that Lily's wand was good for Charm work, and James's was particularly suited to Transfiguration - which at first seems like a simple, but ultimately pointless detail. But after all, it did end up being quite important that James became quite good at Transfiguration, so who knows. - James Lawlor jlawlor at gmail.com From dolis5657 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 22:54:14 2004 From: dolis5657 at yahoo.com (dcgmck) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 22:54:14 -0000 Subject: Vanquishing Voldemort (Nick) In-Reply-To: <20040717155102.55971.qmail@web90006.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106707 Suzanne Chiles wrote: > As Dumbledore says in > > OoTP: > > > > "We both know there are other ways of destroying a man, Tom ... > Indeed, your failure to understand that has always been your greatest weakness." > > > David Gabbard: > I'm glad you brought this quotation back up to the surface - What is Dumbledore referring to when he says "We both know there are other ways of destroying a man..." Why/What do they BOTH know? Have either one of them already destroyed a man in a way worse than killing him? Did Bellatrix just do that to Sirius? Hm... I thought he was referring to the Longbottoms and to Barty Crouch, Jr., for starters. I did wonder if perhaps Dumbledore was also referring to the wretched existence Voldemort experienced between his initial downfall and his recorporealization, as well as to the way Voldemort had sacrificed his humanity out of fear of death, similar to Nearly Headless Nick's sacrifice of immortality for his purgatory-like existence at Hogwarts. Fear of risking the unknown is, after all, its own kind of self-destruction... From harp66 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 18:19:07 2004 From: harp66 at yahoo.com (Peter Shea) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 11:19:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SHIP: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss In-Reply-To: <20040715222949.76928.qmail@web25301.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040717181907.48044.qmail@web50807.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106708 Uddrepd: > Agreed but at least Harry has had some Ron has had none. In my honest opinion > Ron and Luna will make a fine couple. Udder, Why do you think this? In OOTP there is some clues to suggest that Luna fancies Ron, but I don't see how Ron would relate to a girl who, while very sweet, is a bit flaky. Peter From dolis5657 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 23:32:00 2004 From: dolis5657 at yahoo.com (dcgmck) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 23:32:00 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's Missing Diploma In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106709 wrote: > > > Even though Hagrid's name was cleared, he never received a magical education. dcgmck replies: I don't know about that. Dumbledore arranged for Hagrid's apprenticeship and eventual succession to Keeper of the Grounds and Keys for Hogwarts. Before the current system of education came into being, apprenticeships were the standard means of educating young people. In addition, between sympathetic classmates and Dumbledore, Hagrid clearly has not grown up entirely ignorant. We have also seen that he seems to have free access to the library. Clearly he has been provided with many opportunities to learn. What's more, much learning occurs outside of classrooms. I always assumed that without the Hogwart's degree or whatever, > > you wouldn't be able to use magic... Hagrid's not allowed to use his or any other wand. All magical creatures seem able to do some magic even without a focusing implement. Now, being allowed is another matter . . . > Yes, but what about the children who have only a small amount of > magical ability - > What about the kids that don't make it through Hogwarts - > What about those that only get 1 or 2 OWLs? > I don't think having the diploma makes a difference - F&G won't have one, will they? dcgmck writes: There does seem to be some standard in place to determine who gets educated and to what degree. As with a number of school systems, there seem to be "college prep" as well as "vocational" tracks for students of varying abilities. As with all societies, there are a number of niches to be filled, not all of which require great knowledge or provide great prestige. Someone has to drive the Knight Bus. Someone has to work in the shops in the Alleys that serve as the equivalent of wizarding malls. Surely London doesn't have the only one... If one doesn't wish to work in government, in academia, or as a corporate cog, then post-high school education does seem very optional, even a luxury. Fred and George have no desire to work in the Ministry of Magic or teach at Hogwarts, so staying in school was just a means of pleasing beloved parents. That's over. If they do eventually get degrees, those documents will probably be honorary. Like a handful of trailblazers in a variety of fields, they'll actually deserve such recognition. Didn't Flitwick start that ball rolling by preserving and cordoning off a bit of their "swamp" as a notable example of charm work? From dontask2much at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 00:36:03 2004 From: dontask2much at yahoo.com (charme) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:36:03 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: James, Lily, Harry's protection References: Message-ID: <038701c46c5f$3596e170$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> No: HPFGUIDX 106710 dcgmck: > > On the positive side, I like the idea that the charm Lily sets on > > Harry is a multi-part protection culminating in her death. It is > > reminiscent of the concept behind moat and castle construction. > > Additionally, it follows the model Dumbledore invokes on the Dursley > > household, which is sealed when Petunia accepts the onus of caretaker > > for her nephew. Thus each sister completes a magic ritual of > > protection through active acceptance of the responsibility and its > > attendant consequences. > > > > If you think about ancient magic that way, there is even a parallel > > in Voldemort's resurrection potion, which requires the bloody > > sacrifice of a willing volunteer: Wormtail's hand. > entropymail: > I've just read this bit, and love the way it fits in with the theory > of Lily's Protection Charm. The "ancient magic" that Dumbledore talks > about seems to follow a particular pattern, or have certain > requirements. This may also explain why "ancient magic" has largely > been forgotten, and is not used lightly by common witches and wizards. > The costs are so high that the circumstances would have to be quite > dire for the average person in the WW to want to attempt it. Charme: I just re-read this passage in OoP, and I think (based on what I read) Dumbledore and Harry's parents had a "Doomsday Plan" in the form of a protection charm prior to Voldemort killing Lily and James. I interpret Fudge's comments and the charm they placed on the Potter house in Godric's Hollow to mean they *knew* wicked old Voldemort was after them, which in turn would make me think they knew why. IMO, this combined sequence of charms added an additional blessing/curse in the form of Harry's aquired Voldemort powers, and the growing connection between the 2. I also think that Dumbledore didn't inflict the charm on the Dursely house in so much as it's permanent: I think it's only during the time Harry is there. charme From dolis5657 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 00:10:33 2004 From: dolis5657 at yahoo.com (dcgmck) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 00:10:33 -0000 Subject: Sirius Luring Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106711 Demetra wrote: > >> This is what bothers me most about Sirius, the fact that he > apparently never matured beyond an impulsive teenager. > HunterGreen: > By all rights it appears Sirius learned *nothing* from the prank incident. But I do think he has grown up at least a tiny little bit since the pensieve incident. Yes, in all the scenes with Snape he acts like a teenager, but for the most part Snape doesn't act too mature either, > When Harry *asks* about the incident in the pensieve, Sirius says very clearly that he's not proud of it (of course, that makes me wonder why he called Snape 'Snivellus' earlier in the book, dcgmck: Maturity is a tricky thing, more fluid than static, more relative and situational than absolute. I think Sirius takes his duties as godfather well, seriously... So of course he's going to tell Harry that he's not proud of being a prat, but neither Snape nor Black has ever gotten past whatever is between them. That, too, is not unreasonable. I've seen survivors from opposite sides of our world's WWII who will never get past the enmities of their formative youth. Snape and Black thought they were on opposite sides from school through war. Being told they were mistaken is not going to change feelings they have internalized. Such feelings are beyond the reach of rational thought. For people caught up in such emotional webs, no act against the other is sufficiently evil because the other party has long since lost human status. That's so sad, but it's also too true for too many. From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 01:17:55 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 01:17:55 -0000 Subject: Clarification On Terminology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106712 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "(Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force)" wrote: > Hi Folks, > > ...edited... > > First, let's try "wizard" and "warlock". For the most part, people > are referred to as witches or wizards, but then the term warlock > pops up and I'm at a loss as to what distinguishes a wizard from a > warlock or visa versa. > Asian_lovr2: We have discussed this before, but without a comment from JKR there is no way to resolve it. I would love to see her address it on her website. The best we could come up with was that it was a cultural thing. Harry seems to know a warlock when the sees one, he speaks of seeing them in the Leaky Cauldron and Three Broomstick. In a room full of wizard, he specifically mentions a select group of warlocks. So they are identifiable. The best I could come up with was that 'wizard' is a Western European term for magical males, and 'warlock' is an Eastern European term for the same thing. Harry identifies warlock based on regional dialets and general appearance. I picture, Eastern Europeans being similar to Krum; dark hair, dark eyes, pale or olive skin, thick accets, etc.... Beyond that, we never reached a concrete conclusion. > Lee continues: > > The second conundrum is "charm" and "spell. They seem to be > interchangeable, but I'm not altogether sure. ...edited > > Can someone with a really logical head enlighten or clarify the mud > of confusion in which I wallow? Please? > > Thanks, > Lee :-) Asian_lovr2: Well, I can't take an hour and search back through old threads until I find the post I made on this subject, or I can take 10 seconds and reposted from my files. I'm lazy. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - On the Nature of Spells, Charms, And Jinxes- For what it's worth lets start with formal definitions just so we have a reference point, then work our way up to applied definitions. Jinx - To bring bad luck to Hex - An evil spell; a curse Curse - 1.a. An appeal or prayer for evil or misfortune to befall someone or something. 2. To invoke evil or misfortune upon; damn. 3. To bring evil upon; afflict: Charm - (a charm, amulet, fetish, juju, talisman) 1. An item worn for its supposed magical benefit, as in warding off evil; an amulet. 2. To function as an amulet or charm. (to charm) 1. An action or formula thought to have magical power. 2. The chanting of a magic word or verse; incantation 3. To cast or seem to cast a spell on; bewitch. 4. To use magic spells Spell - 1.a. A word or formula believed to have magic power. 1.b. A bewitched state; a trance. 2. To put (someone) under a spell; bewitch. Now to my interpretation- A SPELL is a broad general purpose reference that refers to all 'cast' magic; that is, refers to most magic other than potions. Restated, all non-potions magic is some form of a spell. Although, I concede that Potions could have spells cast upon them; however, that would make them Charmed Potions. See CHARMS. Being 'cast' magic implies the use of a wand, however, if we consider the variations of magic worldwide, a wand isn't an absolute given. CHARMS are in two categories; charm spells and charmed object. Charms as cast magic are made up of spells that are applied to objects; summoning and banishing charms, for example. Although, it is possible for the 'object' to be a person. Charm spells can also be applied to objects to give them protective properties, thereby creating the second class of charms; charmed object. Charmed objects are carried by people as a form of protection to ward off evil and dark magic. A CURSE is a form of attack magic; a spell that assaults a person. For example, the curse of the Bat Bogeys, a Ginny Weasley specialty. If an otherwise benevolent spell is used to assault a person that applied intent is what defines it as a curse. Curses can be cast with a wand, or merely uttered as in the form of a jinx. In this sense, we really have two forms of curses; one is an event curse and the other is a sustained curse (more on this below). >From another perspective, you can cast an event curse at someone, or you can put a sustained curse upon them. Once again, we see how the definitions and applications of these various terms overlap. A HEX I think is another word for a curse; to hex someone is to curse them. Hex and curse are always negative. There are no healing or happy hexes or curses. The Tickle Charm (Rictusempra, used against Malfoy while he and Harry dueled) becomes a hex or a curse when it is used to assault a person. I speculate that under the right circumstances a Hex could be a combination of a Jinx and a Curse, in that it is assaultive and implies that there may be some lingering bad luck. This is another excellent example of how spells, charms, hexes, and curses all overlap in meaning. A JINX is a way of forcing bad luck onto a person. The bad luck may be general bad luck, or it may take on a specific intended form. Quirrel tries to jinx Harry's broom, that jinx forces Harry's broom to try and buck him off. Being bucked off your broom would certainly be bad luck. Draco also used a 'trip jinx' that causes Harry to trip and fall when he is running from the DA room trying to escape Umbridge. It doesn't put a magical object (like a rope or a rock) or magic force in Harry's path that causes him to trip. Draco simple curses Harry with a bit of specific bad luck that causes him to trip. A Jinx like a curse or a hex is never positive, it is always an assault of some kind. I want to pause here with a side note, cast magic, spells cast with a wand come in two forms 'event' spells and 'sustained' spells. An event spell is like the 'Stupefy' Stunning Curse, which to some extent is analogous to a gun; BANG! you are stunned. The Cruciatus Pain Curse is a sustained curse, you must cast the spell and hold it for as long as you want it to continue. Notice, in all cases but one where the Pain Curse is used, the curse is sustained until the caster withdraws his wand with the intent of ending the effect. When Harry used the Cruciatus Pain Curse against Bellatrix Lestrange in Ministry of Magic Atrium battle in Order of the Phoenix, it didn't fail because Harry wasn't powerful enough or vicious enough, it failed because he did it wrong. The Pain Curse is obviously a sustained curse, yet Harry cast it like an event curse. He cast it and immediately withdrew his wand and his intent thereby ending the effect. One could argue both ways with regard to the Imperius Mind Control Curse. It does sustain, but since it sustains over days, and even perhaps weeks and months, it's hard to believe a wizard can sustain concentrated intent for so long. So, I conclude that the Imperius Mind Control Curse is a form of Bewitchment (see below). In one sense, it is a sustained curse simply because the effect is sustained, but not in the sense that the wizard has to maintain continuous conscious sustained intent. So, we have both 'event' and 'sustained' spells. Maybe we should add BEWITCH to the list. Bewitch - 1. To place under one's power by or as if by magic; cast a spell over. Note: we now have several applications of 'Spell'; to cast a spell, and to be put under a spell as in a sustained bewitchment. So, 'to bewitch' means to apply magic to, although, there is a subtle implication that to bewitch something or someone, means that the magic will linger. When you charm an object with protective properties, the properties linger or remain in the object making it a bewitched object. Bewitching a person to some extent also implies that the person has come under your power, so the Imperius Curse, because the ability to control the person lingers after the spell is cast, is a form of bewitchment. DE's claimed 'bewitchment', and that they had no control over acts they performed under Voldemort's Imperius Curse. Which means a spell was cast against them, it was negative, so the spell was a curse (event and sustained curse), also, they were /under/ a spell and therefore charmed, enchanted, and bewitched. On top of that, they were probably hexed and jinxed too. Also - Enchant - 1. To cast a spell over; bewitch. Entrance - 1. To put into a trance. 2. To fill with delight, wonder, or enchantment: a child who was entranced by a fairy tale. See Synonyms at charm. Ensorcel - To enchant; bewitch. Incantation - 1. Ritual recitation of verbal charms or spells to produce a magic effect. 2.a. A formula used in ritual recitation; a verbal charm or spell. Any more? Steve/Asian_lovr (was bboy_mn when this was originally posted.) From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sun Jul 18 01:21:40 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 01:21:40 -0000 Subject: Lily's sacrifice, was (James gave his life, why no protection from him?) In-Reply-To: <20040717100808.7402.qmail@web54007.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106713 wrote: > Saraquel suggested (106592)that the priori incantatem indicates that the only spell from LVs wand killed Lily, scarred Harry and rebounded on Voldemort. Which leaves the question as to how Harry > got the scar, if not directly from the curse. > > Entropy throws in (paraphrased) Lily performed a charm to protect > Harry sealed by her death which caused the scar. > > Dumbledore may have recognized the eihwaz rune when he saw Harry's scar for the first time, realizing the Ancient Magic behind it, > and that is why he decided to leave Harry "marked". > > > Tina questions > I came to understand that the scar was where Voldemort > marked Harry (as his equal). > > > > > Saraquel continues: > > To take things further, what does it mean to say LV MARKED H as his equal. It can be taken as a literal thing, as in his scar. But it is also possible to interpret (this is a use of the word in England and quite probably elsewhere I don't know) the meaning of MARK to be 'to realise' as in 'Mark my words'. Now that's something LV hasn't done yet. At the end of GoF he most definitely sees Harry as his inferior. But tha's starting a whole new discussion..... > > > > > Brigitte: > > I think you all have made some very valid arguments and points about Lily doing a protection charm on Harry. However, I think that Tina is correct in saying that LV did curse Harry to produce the scar. LV tried to curse Harry and in doing so caused the lightning bolt (as a symbol of Lily's protection) to scar Harry's forehead. LV had to curse Harry directly to be able to transfer his some of his powers, like parseltongue on to Harry and I think that his powers were channeled into Harry by the lightning scar. Maybe part of Lily's charm was to allow for the transferal of LV's power unto Harry. As to Saraquel's observation that the prior incantatem didn't produce a spell between Lily and Bertha, the only explanation I can give is maybe it only shows spells that were completed correctly. Since the spell backfired maybe the wand didn't register it as a completed spell? > Valky: Could I just add to some canon possibility that might clear up a few of these problems. In POA we are told that Sirius killed 12 muggles with one curse, actually Peter, it seems. So therefore, is it possible, that LV attempted to kill Lily and Harry with the one curse. Leaving the action of the protection charm and Lily's death in one bundle with the marking of Harry's forhead and the rebound. It might be worth considering even though I am aware this is not how it is depicted in the PS movie version. From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Jul 18 01:34:54 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 01:34:54 -0000 Subject: Polyjuiced Hermione In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106714 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "coolbeans3131" wrote: > > > ---Jason wrote: > > > > Why does JKR go through the extra words and pages to turn > > Hermione > > > > into a cat?... Is this just showing us that polyjuice is only > > for > > > humans? > > > "sad1199" wrote: > > I don't know if there is a connection but, in OotP (American) > p.511 > > there is a mention of a woman at St. Mungo's whose whose entire > head > > was covered in fur and Harry thinks to himself that something > > similar had happened to Hermione in their second year. > > Joj replies: > Yeah, and it's also one of the memory flashes Harry has with Snape. > Why bring it up twice in OotP? I also wondered why Harry didn't get > a flash of her petrified, as that was a much worse situation. If it > was an unimportant bit used for a little fun and humor in CoS, why > would it ever be brought up again? Potioncat: Yes, and think about it. Snape must have known how Hermione got a cat face at the time it happened in CoS. Even if he never really knows what the trio were trying to do. He suspects Harry of stealing supplies for polyjuice in PoA and he sees a flashback of that first episode in OoP. We also know that Agnes (fur faced woman in St. Mungos) has a son....of course, her son may be Mark Evans. ;-) Potioncat From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 01:36:16 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 01:36:16 -0000 Subject: Pureblood attitudes and the word "racism" (Was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106715 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > Moreover, I feel it's counterproductive and committing an injustice > (IMO !!) to judge people without at least trying to know why they do > things. What if Bella, as a kid, was abducted by a group of Muggles > who raped and tortured her ? It would sure explain why she hates the > Muggles so much. I agree that the simplest solution is that she was > taught to hate them, but it is not necessarily the *right* solution. snip. It *does* matter WHY people do the things they do. Alla: Yes, it does matter why people do things what they do. It is just in case of Bella, I am not interested. Don't get me wrong, there were many villains in the works of fiction I've read over time, where I was interested to learn their motivations. It is not the case here. And yes, again the dreaded "emotion" comes in. Bella had a hand in killing one of my favourite characters. There are could be many dreadful circumstances in her life to make her what she is now, but it does not matter to me. If I was defending person like Bella in court, I would make sure I would learn all of them, to show the judge and jury how poor Bella was just victim of the circumstances, but I can allow myself a luxury of not doing so with the fictional character > Del replies : > Once again, it is your right to choose to do so. But you have to be > aware that this might prompt some posters to not want to discuss > matters with you. I for example just don't know how to deal with upset > people and I strongly avoid being around upset people, because they > make me feel scared and unsure. Alla: Del, I just meant that my emotions will always be present in my posts. I have no idea how you equaled that statement of mine with "being upset". For the most parts, my attitude is very light hearted. Of course, there are some issues I feel strongly about, but I am not being upset about it. I am always trying to stick to canon, but I absolutely don't see why my writing should be "emotionless", even if I am basing my argument on canon. And of course it is totally up to you whether you want discuss matters with me or not. Frankly, you have me very puzzled here. If you choose to continue to debate matters with me, could we stop discussing my writing style, please? In my line of work, I have to present emotionless arguments every day. Here I choose to argue differently. If you don't like it, there is nothing I can do. > Alla wrote previously: > > But, I also think that redemption of the Slytherin House is only > > possible, when what lies at the heart of their choosing, will > > dissappear. When "blood issue" will be come a "non-issue" and yes, it > > is still an issue now (remember the password to Slytherin Commons) > Del replies : > Then the very first thing to do is to kill the 4 Houses as they are. > The whole concept was flawed fron the beginning. Trying to correct it > is like putting a Band-Aid on a wooden leg. Alla: You could be right. I think it is very possible that Rowling will do away all the Houses at the end of the book, or Slytherins will be choosen based on their cunning and ambition, not on whether they are "pure-bloods" > From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sun Jul 18 01:48:14 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 21:48:14 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Don't the Death Eaters know that Snape's a spy? Message-ID: <192.2bf2b991.2e2b30de@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106716 In a message dated 7/17/2004 8:58:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk writes: If he wasn't friends with Lucius at school then how did they get so close? I realise that they could have become acquainted with each other at DE meetings, but IMO they don't seem the type of occasion to socialise and make friends. ========= Sherrie here: My point was that I DO believe that they knew each other before coming to school. I am a firm believer in the second-generation hypothesis I set forth in my last - that Lucius & Severus were both sons of first-generation followers of Voldemort, and thus knew each other before Hogwarts. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mz_annethrope at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 01:38:57 2004 From: mz_annethrope at yahoo.com (mz_annethrope) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 01:38:57 -0000 Subject: (A Challenge!) Weasley names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106717 Gadfly McLellyn writes: > Now for Percy. JK Rowling said in her interview on Biography that > she has borrowed from folklore to "suit her purposes". I think that > is Percy's story. I think the Weasley family has something to do > with King Arthur and his Knights of the Roundtable. As JKR borrows > so much on mythology, I bought a book called "The Ultimate > Encyclopedia of Mythology" by Arthur Cotterell and Rachel Storm, > Hermes House publisher. In the Myths of the Celtic World section on > P162 is a piece on Percival "the Perfect Fool". He was a Knight of > King Arthur's and known as the "Simple Knight". This reminds me of > Percy as he tends to simplify everything into black and white > issues. > > Is there anyone out there more knowledgable about King Arthur's Court > to see if there are more ties to the Weasley names? > > Gadfly McLellyn ms_annethrope replies: Ok, first post, and greetings all. JKR seems to use names borrowed from literature or legends in a vaguely suggestive way. She chose Hermione's name based on the character in The Winter's Tale, but there's not much similarity between the two. I think the most likely link to Arthurian legend is that Arthur Weasley despises Lucius Malfoy. British King Arthur and Roman King Lucius were mortal enemies. There's also a sword named Ron, but that might be pushing it too far. Ginny's given name is semi-Arthurian, "Ginevra" being Italian for Guinevere. That said, the more likely source for Ginny is Ginevra, the daughter of the King of Scotland in Ariosto's "Orlando Furioso." Ginevra is betrothed to Ariodante, Duke of Burgundy, but the jealous Polinesso sets up her maid Dalinda to play Ginevra, making it look like Ginevra is having an affair with another man. Scottish law (in this story) deals harshly with unchastity and Ginevra is sentenced to death. But all ends well, or at least justly. (It is also the basis of Handel's opera "Ariodante" and perhaps of the Hero and Claudio story in "Much Ado About Nothing.")However, JKR's Ginny doesn't seem at all like the Medieval damsel in distress. Percy,on the other hand, has nothing to do with Percival and originates from a separate location in France,though the names are often confused. Nor does JKR's Percy much resemble the virginal Percival, being neither a simpleton (in the sense of "holy fool"), nor IMO a paragon of chastity. Think of his secret tryst with Penelope in CoS. I wonder if his name is meant to be a play on Henry "Hotspur" Percy,who died in a rebellion against against Henry IV. That's another character who thinks in black and white, at least in Shakespeare. But again, I suspect these names are meant to be at most suggestive, not parallels with mythical or historical figures. ms_annethrope (whose name is never meant to be suggestive). From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Jul 18 01:53:45 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 01:53:45 -0000 Subject: The Virtues of Hufflepuff House and Cedric Diggory (Was: Snape and . . .cour In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106718 > Del replies : > snip > > Then in CoS, Ernie's bunch of Hufflepuffs appear quite stupid, coward > and even ridiculous for believing so easily that Harry is the Heir of > Slytherin and for making up huge stories about Harry and Justin. snip > Potioncat: When I read the section where Ernie (I think) gives his explanation supporting Harry as Heir of Slytherin, it made me think of our own group, with our theories and canon support. His theory actually was as well supported with facts as ours often are. Of course, some of ours turn out to be pretty stupid too cough*MarkEvans*cough. I just read Mansfield Park by Jane Austen...boy it was just like Harry Potter...lots of people with incorrect assumptions or biases against certain groups or behaviors. And all of it presented as "fact" then slowly revealed as wrong. Also, we often think of Ravenclaw as bookish, but I think the description is "clever." Potioncat From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 01:54:48 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 01:54:48 -0000 Subject: Harry & the Fisher King (Re: Harry and Hagrid ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106719 snip. Jen: When does JKR's story begin? My vote is for the split between the founders, even > though I'm not particulary interested in that storyline. The > Prophecy & Godric's Hollow are then just events within the 1000- year > timeline of the story. That would mean whatever takes place between > Harry/Voldemort could potentially heal the divide in the WW. > > My speculation is starting to remind me of the wounded Fisher King > in the legend of the Holy Grail, where he & his desolated country > can only be healed if an 'innocent' comes to his castle and asks the > correct question: "Whom does the Grail serve?" or "What ails thee?" > > This is an interesting analogy because Harry is definitely the > innocent who arrives at the castle, but he doesn't ask questions!! > When will he ask the crucial question and what will that question > be? Alla: Jen, if Harry inded goes back in time as it was speculated could be it be that he goes back to the Founders Time and talks to Salasar and Godric and finds out what truly happened between them and how the rift can be healed back in our days? I don't know, I like that, but I think it is more likely that Harry will go to GH, if he were to go at all. Maybe he will make couple of stops on his journey? Maybe Harry will ask Salasar whether Voldemort is true heir? (I know, it is quite an outlandish speculation) From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Jul 18 02:02:14 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 02:02:14 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius lure Severus into the Willow? (was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106720 > Carol: > >> Snape is not trying to keep Harry out of Hogsmeade to be nasty, > for example. He's trying to prevent him from being murdered by his > own old enemy, Sirius Black, whom he has every reason to believe is > capable of murder. His efforts to prevent Harry from going to the MoM > are even stronger evidence that his desire to save Harry's life (and > end the life debt) did not end with SS/PS. << > > HunterGreen: > I saw that more as him doing his duty as either a teacher or an order > member. It appears to be an unwritten part of the job description at > Hogwarts to protect children from certain, er, 'dangers'. Snape is > not the type to standby and let *anyone* be killed if he can help it > (example being his sarcastic comment to Crabbe or Goyle in OotP for > them not to squeeze Neville so hard...not some sweeping act of > heroicy, but it worked). Potioncat: I don't think it's in the teachers' job description. We don't see McGonagall or Flitwick lurking about trying to protect Harry. Now, if Snape is Potions Master, Head of Slytherin and Chief of Security, perhaps it is his duty. But I don't think so. I think part of what you said is true, "Snape is not the type to standby and let anyone be killed if he can help it...." Potioncat From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 02:05:13 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 02:05:13 -0000 Subject: The Virtues of Hufflepuff House and Cedric Diggory (Was: Snape and . . .cour In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106721 > Potioncat wrote: > When I read the section where Ernie (I think) gives his explanation > supporting Harry as Heir of Slytherin, it made me think of our own > group, with our theories and canon support. His theory actually was > as well supported with facts as ours often are. Of course, some of > ours turn out to be pretty stupid too cough*MarkEvans*cough. Alla: LOL! But we did have some reason for Mark Evans at least. :o) It is all Rowling's fault, I am telling you. Potioncat: > I just read Mansfield Park by Jane Austen...boy it was just like > Harry Potter...lots of people with incorrect assumptions or biases > against certain groups or behaviors. And all of it presented > as "fact" then slowly revealed as wrong. Alla: It is so wierd. I finished "Mansfield Park" a week ago and thought about the same thing. Potioncat: > Also, we often think of Ravenclaw as bookish, but I think the > description is "clever." > Alla: What is the latest Sorting Hat song says? "Said Ravenclaw, "We'll teach those whose Intelligence is purest" - OoP, p.205 I think you are right - clever is better definition here. From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Jul 18 02:09:12 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 02:09:12 -0000 Subject: Who would love Snape? In-Reply-To: <071520041253.1915.40F67E4C0002F0180000077B22007481849C9C07049D0B@comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106722 Lisa wrote: > > Out of curiosity, because I can't remember- is Snape ever at Christmas dinners? > Lissa > Potioncat: Yes, he is at some, but not all. Or at least is not mentioned at all of them. (Once again I cannot get to books at the moment.) Potioncat (who thinks he stays at Hogwarts the years Mrs. Snape takes the twins to her family for Christmas.) ;-) From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sun Jul 18 02:21:28 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 02:21:28 -0000 Subject: Harry & the Fisher King (Re: Harry and Hagrid ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106723 > vivian: > > I was also wondering if perhaps the series will end at the > > begining, back at Godric's Hollow or perhaps with the original > > split between the founders of Hogwarts. > > Jen: When does JKR's story begin? > My speculation is starting to remind me of the wounded Fisher King > in the legend of the Holy Grail, where he & his desolated country > can only be healed if an 'innocent' comes to his castle and asks > the correct question: "Whom does the Grail serve?" or "What ails > thee?" > This is an interesting analogy because Harry is definitely the > innocent who arrives at the castle, but he doesn't ask questions!! > When will he ask the crucial question and what will that question > be? > Valky: He *has*, Jen. Harry came to the castle with one burning question on his mind that parrallels both: whom does the grail serve? AND what ails thee? "Who am I?" "Who is Harry Potter" Harry even answers a question about wether he is Harry or not with "Oh him..." in PS. > vivian: > > What's left to know? The events of Godric's Hollow, the break- up between the founders, and the torture of Neville's parents. > > Valky: And the all important mystery "Who is Harry Potter?" Personally, Jen and Vivian, I totally agree we both of you that the story will trace itself all the way back to Hogwarts Founding Four. Godrics Hollow will be revealed, hopefully not by Snape or Peter as Jen suggests, but by a realisation that what occurred there was an integral thread of WW fabric. The reference to ancient magic there, I believe, is because when we trace the story back to the ancients and their purpose and their dreams GH is seen to be the final product of a thousand year construct in the WW realised by Lily's faith. Knowing that LV spent some 50 years on his construct, it is plausible to imagine that the ancients might have been gradually dropping in the pieces of its own miracle into place to eventually to unite the wizard world, and the many beings that live in it. From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Jul 18 02:22:52 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 02:22:52 -0000 Subject: Who would love Snape? In-Reply-To: <071520041253.1915.40F67E4C0002F0180000077B22007481849C9C07049D0B@comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106724 Lissa wrote: > I can understand why JKR says who would want him in love with them? Just the greasy hair alone yuck! (A friend also pointed out that if his hair's THAT greasy, he probably has some pretty rank body odor, too. Lovely thought.) > Potioncat: Well, I wanted to find the source and provide a link, but I can't seem to. Somewhere, possibly Great Posts and Where to Find Them or possibly the Lexicon, there is an essay about Snape and it addresses his appearance. The point is made that never does Harry notice a body odor or breath odor, in spite of the fact he's close enough to be sprayed with spit when Snape yells at him. His robes are not described as dirty or soiled. While I think his teeth are yellow, that is not always due to lack of brushing. I wonder at the hair that is always referred to as greasy, not oily. It must be pretty bad. Why is it like that? We've had a post before about why so many witches and wizards are describes as having bad teeth when spells seem available to correct things. My thought is there must be some things that just can't be changed. I also have a horrible thought about Snape's hair, but I'm hoping it isnt' true. Potioncat From tinainfay at msn.com Sun Jul 18 02:01:37 2004 From: tinainfay at msn.com (mrs_sonofgib) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 02:01:37 -0000 Subject: Polyjuiced Hermione In-Reply-To: <40F6B39F.7040107@tds.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106725 > JoAnna wrote: > > > As for Madam Pomfrey keeping her in the hospital wing for so > > long... I have no doubt that Hermione begged her to let her > > stay. Would you want to be among your classmates after having > > accidentally transfigured yourself into a cat? Jem wrote: > Why, if you can regrow bones overnight, does it take 3 weeks to > unpolyjuice Hermione? That's the issue for me, not that Hermione > doesn't want to be seen, but why this magic of Madame Pomfrey's > seems so out of whack with all her other remedies. It does seem rather inconsistent that it took so long. But, if we remember that when Arthur Weasley was in St. Mungo's and the healers had a bit of a hard time figuring out how to cure him (he kept bleeding when the bandages were removed) then it kind of makes sense. Since Polyjuice potion is not supposed to be used in human- to-cat transfigurations, there would need to be time to figure out the cure. I'm guessing that Hermione was not very forth-coming in what had caused her predicament (since she stole ingredients, got the book under ... dodgy circumstances etc). ~tina, who is still trying to figure things out... From tinainfay at msn.com Sun Jul 18 02:13:27 2004 From: tinainfay at msn.com (mrs_sonofgib) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 02:13:27 -0000 Subject: Snape at Christmas dinners? (was Re: Who would love Snape?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106726 Lissa wrote: > Out of curiosity, because I can't remember- is Snape ever at > Christmas dinners? In PoA he is at Christmas dinner because Dumbledore is very enthusiastic about the Christmas crackers and makes Snape pull one end and out comes a hat reminiscent of Mrs. Longbottom's vulture hat (a great moment from JKR). ~tina (queen of the incomplete list) From snow15145 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 02:37:53 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 02:37:53 -0000 Subject: AFRAID TO DIE Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106727 Fear! Fear! Fear! Why does everyone in the Wizarding World refrain from saying Voldemort? Fear Why do wizards choose to become ghosts? Fear Dumbledore himself states in the first book chap. The Man with Two Faces pg. 298: "Call him Voldemort, Harry. Always use the proper name for things. Fear of a name increases fear of the thing itself." Voldemort thrives and becomes stronger through the fears of his victims. COS chap. The Heir of Slytherin pg. 310: " So Ginny poured out her soul to me, and her soul happened to be exactly what I wanted I grew stronger and stronger on a diet of her deepest fears " There are two things we know about Harry and fear. The first is the fact that he grew up with muggles and never learned that he was to fear saying the name Voldemort. SS chap. The Journey from Platform Nine and Three-Quarters pg. 100: "I'm not trying to be brave or anything, saying the name," said Harry, "I just never knew you shouldn't." Dumbledore was pretty smart teaching Harry not to be afraid by sending him to live with muggles. The second time is in POA chap. Flight of the Fat Lady pg. 155: "I see," said Lupin thoughtfully. "Well, well I'm impressed. He smiled slightly at the look of surprise on Harry's face. "That suggests that what you fear most of all is ?fear. Very wise, Harry." Franklin D. Roosevelt said, "There's nothing to fear but fear itself" which is exactly what Harry fears. On the other hand, Voldemort does have a fear, the fear of death, just like Nearly Headless Nick and all the other ghosts who chose this form of not living nor dieing because of their fear. What was it that Nick said, that sometimes he regrets this decision. To live and not be truly alive may just be worse than death itself. OOP chap. The Only One He Ever Feared pg. 814: "There is nothing worse than death, Dumbledore!" snarled Voldemort. "You are quite wrong, " said Dumbledore "Indeed, your failure to understand that there are things much worse than death has always been your greatest weakness-" If you are to fight your opponent and win you must use their greatest weaknesses against them. Dumbledore knows Voldemort's weakness, which is most likely why he fears Dumbledore. Voldemort's weakness is Harry's greatest strength, not to be afraid. OOP chap. The Lost Prophecy pg. 823: "There is no shame in what you are feeling Harry," said Dumbledore's voice. "On the contrary the fact that you can feel pain like this is your greatest strength." Harry was not afraid to die when Voldemort attempted to possess Harry; therefore fearlessness or bravery is Harry's greatest strength. Snow "It does not do to dwell on dreams and forget to live"-Albus Dumbledore From tinainfay at msn.com Sun Jul 18 02:23:44 2004 From: tinainfay at msn.com (mrs_sonofgib) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 02:23:44 -0000 Subject: Will the Slytherins leave Hogwarts ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106728 Del: > We've never seen the Houses work together in harmony. But we sure > have seen discord creep among the students. > The pressure on the Slytherins in particular will become nearly > unbearable, and I'm afraid the other Houses won't do much to help > them. So my concern is this: will we see the day when the Slytherins > will decide to leave the school for good, just like old Slytherin > did? And what effects would it have on the remaining students? I am expecting the War to come to Hogwarts (there are many tricky references, such as CoS Am PB p314 (Harry to Tom Riddle) "Even when you were strong, you didn't dare try and take over Hogwarts."). I wonder how this will effect unity between the Houses? Slytherin could try to leave or work from the inside with the DEs or join the rest of the school. It will be interesting to see which way it will go. ~tina From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 02:50:09 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 02:50:09 -0000 Subject: Three Black sisters on a tree Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106729 In OotP, Ch. 6, we get a peek at the Black family tree. Most of it is pretty vague, but interestingly JKR makes sure to relay the exact position of the three Black sisters: Andromeda, Bellatrix and Narcissa. Here is the relevant canon: ---------------------------------- "You and Tonks are related?" Harry asked, surprised. "Oh, yeah, her mother Andromeda was my favourite cousin", said Sirius, examining the tapestry closely. "No, Andromeda's not on here either, look ? " He pointed to another small round burn mark between two names, Bellatrix and Narcissa. ---------------------------------- Harry, however, did not laugh; he was too busy staring at the names to the right of Andromeda's burn mark. A double line of gold embroidery linked Narcissa Black with Lucius Malfoy and a single vertical gold line from their names led to the name Draco. ---------------------------------- But Harry was now looking at the name to the left of Andromeda's burn: Bellatrix Black, which was connected by a double line to Rodolphus Lestrange. ---------------------------------- Based on the above information we know exactly how this small portion of the tree looks like: R===B A N===L ! D Legend: R) Rudolphus Lestrange B) Bellatrix Black A) Andromeda Black (burned) N) Narcissa Black L) Lucius Malfoy D) Draco Note: if you got Draco as Andromeda'a son (oh, horror!) it's because you use an uneven font like "Times New Roman". You need to convert it to an even font like "Courier New" and then Draco will properly appear as Narcissa and Lucius's son. Sirius also tells us that Andromeda married the muggle-born Ted Tonks and they had Nymphadora (who prefers to be known by her surname only), but this information does not appear on the tree, since Andromeda's name was burned for her sins. >From the above we can conclude that the names of the three sisters were probably embroidered on the tapestry a short time after their birth in the order: B A N with the two properly-pureblood husbands, Rudolphus and Lucius, added after the weddings. This order strongly suggests to me that Bella is the older sister (thus naturally the dominant), Andromeda is the median (thus naturally the oddball) and Narcissa is the youngest (the pampered and spoiled one. I humbly apologize if any of the members were offended by the above stereotypes. We don't have much information to go by here). Now, I don't know anything about traditional genealogy, but family trees I've seen on the web almost always follow the convention of listing siblings from left to right according to their age. The rare exception seems to be when the siblings are not of the same sex and then sometime the younger brothers might push older sisters rightward (presumably because they're higher in line for the succession). But this exception does not hold in our case where all the siblings are females. For several examples of nobility family trees see: http://www.begent.net/history/windsor.htm http://www.beaconsfield.derwentside.org.uk/Family%20tree.jpg http://www.madamedepompadour.com/images/mdp/genealog/mdp_gene.jpg http://www.btinternet.com/~sbishop100/vicchld2.jpg http://www.skirrow.com/famhi.gif So if wizards follow muggle conventions in this, and if JKR's editors didn't mess up the right order (again!), we can conclude that Bella is the oldest, then Andromeda, then Narcissa. Now I properly credit Carol for first posting that Bellatrix is 3 yrs older than Sirius (and thus also the other Marauders, Lily and Snape). This follows from Sirius telling Harry: "I haven't seen her since I was your age, unless you count a glimpse of her coming into Azkaban." Since Harry had just turned 15 at this point, it seems Sirius was in his forth (or possibly fifth) year at Hogwarts when Bella was in her seventh year. This age creates a problem in my reconstruction regarding Andromeda. Even if Andromeda is younger than Bella by only a year, then she's 2 years older than Sirius, Lily and James. Lily and James had Harry when they were only 20 or 21 at most (according to the Lexicon). At the beginning of OotP Harry is 15 and Tonks must be at least 21 (because she had qualified as an Auror "a year ago", and Auror training takes 3 yrs). If I didn't mess this calculation somewhere, this means that Andromeda gave birth to Tonks when she was at most 17. Perhaps we can stretch it to 18. Not impossible, but problematic. She could have met Ted at Hogwarts, get knocked up (behind the greenhouses, perhaps?) and elope with him immediately after graduating, or even before. I wonder if the Blacks were more scandalized by this, or by the fact that Ted was a m*dblood. BTW, Sirius was 15 then, and maybe he was inspired by the nerve of his favorite cousin, because we know that at 16 he ran away from home. Looks like it was a really bad year for the Ancient and Most Noble House of Black. Avoiding the scandal of Andromeda's early marriage and Tonks birth seems possible only if we allow that Andromeda was older than Bella, and this would mess up my whole reconstruction of the sisters' ages according to their order of appearance in the tree. Inconceivable. In previous posts I already noted that the three years of Hogwarts just above the Marauders included, in reasonable to high degree of canonicity: Frank Longbottom, Alice, Bella, Rudolphus, Rabastan, Bertha Jorkins, Florence, Avery, Rosier and Wilkes. Now add (possibly) the amorous Andromeda and Ted. You can imagine how Bella and her "gang of Slytherins" treated muggle-born Ted. I would think that this gang (all of them future DEs) was considerably more problematic and dangerous than the present day gang of Draco et al. I'd also remind you that these were "the years of terror" and that DD had just become the Headmaster. Over this kind of noise level, the Marauders' pranks and rule-breaking might not be so conspicuous as they look today, and you might forgive DD for failing to notice that three of them had become unregistered animagi. He had already had quite a lot on his plate. Now to Narcissa. If the order in the Black family tree indeed reflects age, then Narcissa should be the youngest sister, about the age of the Marauders. She might be a year older or a year younger than them, but not younger than that because Draco is of the same age of Harry and you wouldn't suspect Narcissa of any improper behavior, right? Besides, Lucius wasn't at Hogwarts then. He is 5 years older than the Marauders, and by that time probably an active DE and looking for a young and presentable pureblood bride to continue the Malfoy dynasty. The only problem with this picture is that the Lexicon lists Narcissa's years in Hogwarts as identical to Lucius' in: http://www.hp-lexicon.org/hogwarts/houses/slytherin.html I believe this to be a mistake (do you read this, Steve?), especially since Narcissa's age is not mentioned in the Malfoys page of the Lexicon: http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/malfoy.html#Narcissa JKR has recently mentioned in her website that she uses the Lexicon for reference, so if in HBP it turns out that Narcissa's age is identical to Lucius', then JKR's mistake had originated from the Lexicon. *I* was right all along! Having Narcissa in Slytherin in the same or similar year as young Severus might lead to some interesting dynamics, especially as Lucius was not there, and in light of the present day relations between Snape and Lucius. I leave this to your wild imagination, as we're already late in this lengthy post. My last question for today is: Is Andromeda still around? Sirius says: "Andromeda WAS my favorite cousin" but that's just because he didn't see her for so many years. Tonks OTOH says in Ch. 3: "My mum's got this knack of getting stuff to fit itself in neatly ? she even GETS the socks to fold themselves ? but I've never mastered how she DOES it". It thus seems that we might have some reunion of the three Black sisters before the end. Neri From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 03:12:55 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 03:12:55 -0000 Subject: (A Challenge!) Weasley names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106730 > ms_annethrope replies: > > Ok, first post, and greetings all. JKR seems to use names borrowed > from literature or legends in a vaguely suggestive way. She chose > Hermione's name based on the character in The Winter's Tale, but > there's not much similarity between the two. I think the most likely > link to Arthurian legend is that Arthur Weasley despises Lucius > Malfoy. British King Arthur and Roman King Lucius were mortal > enemies. There's also a sword named Ron, but that might be pushing > it too far. > > Ginny's given name is semi-Arthurian, "Ginevra" being Italian for > Guinevere. That said, the more likely source for Ginny is Ginevra, > the daughter of the King of Scotland in Ariosto's "Orlando Furioso." > Ginevra is betrothed to Ariodante, Duke of Burgundy, but the jealous > Polinesso sets up her maid Dalinda to play Ginevra, making it look > like Ginevra is having an affair with another man. Scottish law (in > this story) deals harshly with unchastity and Ginevra is sentenced > to death. But all ends well, or at least justly. (It is also the > basis of Handel's opera "Ariodante" and perhaps of the Hero and > Claudio story in "Much Ado About Nothing.")However, JKR's Ginny > doesn't seem at all like the Medieval damsel in distress. > > Percy,on the other hand, has nothing to do with Percival and > originates from a separate location in France,though the names are > often confused. Nor does JKR's Percy much resemble the virginal > Percival, being neither a simpleton (in the sense of "holy fool"), > nor IMO a paragon of chastity. Think of his secret tryst with > Penelope in CoS. I wonder if his name is meant to be a play on > Henry "Hotspur" Percy,who died in a rebellion against against Henry > IV. That's another character who thinks in black and white, at least > in Shakespeare. But again, I suspect these names are meant to be at > most suggestive, not parallels with mythical or historical figures. > > ms_annethrope (whose name is never meant to be suggestive). Welcome, um, Anne! Thanks for the Orlando Furioso connection regarding Ginny's name--I've never read Ariosto. Not sure whether it is suggestive of anything in Ginny's future (at least I hope not), but very interesting nonetheless. Regarding Percival, there are several sources for this knight in the various Grail romances. The Percival mentioned herein most often is the one from Chretien de Troye's poem, Perceval. This is very much a Christian allegory, and Perceval is painted very much as the holy fool--the man whose innocence allows him to succeed where others have failed. The other major source is Wolfram von Eschenbach's Parzival. This character too is an innocent, but not in the ecclesiastical sense--he ends up marrying a queen (Cunwiramurs--Conduire-amours--"Leads to Love"). Eschenbach's story is much more humanistic. Even the grail is not a cup but a stone that allows the impossible to become possible. Parzival's quest, and his talent, is to transcend the dualistic world of opposites. His name, in this respect, has occasionally been glossed as 'perce-val'--'pierce the valley'. That is take what Buddhists would call the Middle Way, which regards good and evil, black and white, male and female, as being of secondary importance. Which in fact seems to be quite the opposite of the character of Percy Weasley... From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sun Jul 18 03:37:33 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 23:37:33 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who would love Snape? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106731 In a message dated 7/17/2004 11:00:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, willsonkmom at msn.com writes: Lisa wrote: > > Out of curiosity, because I can't remember- is Snape ever at Christmas dinners? > Lissa > Potioncat: Yes, he is at some, but not all. Or at least is not mentioned at all of them. (Once again I cannot get to books at the moment.) =================== Sherrie here: He's certainly one of the 13 at dinner in PoA - he pulls the cracker with the vulture hat, which for some odd reason fails to amuse him, and winds up on Dumbledore's head. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sun Jul 18 03:51:20 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 03:51:20 -0000 Subject: Three Black sisters on a tree In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106732 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > In OotP, Ch. 6, we get a peek at the Black family tree. Most of it is pretty vague, but interestingly JKR makes sure to relay the exact > position of the three Black sisters: Andromeda, Bellatrix and > Narcissa. > this small portion > of the tree looks like: > > > R===B A N===L > ! > D > > > Legend: > > R) Rudolphus Lestrange > > B) Bellatrix Black > > A) Andromeda Black (burned) > > N) Narcissa Black > > L) Lucius Malfoy > > D) Draco > > Note: if you got Draco as Andromeda'a son (oh, horror!) it's because you use an uneven font like "Times New Roman". You need to convert it to an even font like "Courier New" and then Draco will properly appear as Narcissa and Lucius's son. > Valky: LOL I actually got Draco as Rudolphus' Son! When reading the message board. Neri continues: > This order strongly suggests to me that Bella is the older sister > Andromeda is the median and Narcissa is the youngest > Now, I don't know anything about traditional genealogy, but > family trees I've seen on the web almost always follow the > convention of listing siblings from left to right according to > their age. > So if wizards follow muggle conventions in this, and if JKR's editors didn't mess up the right order (again!), we can conclude that Bella is the oldest, then Andromeda, then Narcissa. > > Now I properly credit Carol for first posting that Bellatrix is 3 yrs older than Sirius (and thus also the other Marauders, Lily and > Snape). This follows from Sirius telling Harry: "I haven't seen her since I was your age, unless you count a glimpse of her coming into Azkaban." Since Harry had just turned 15 at this point, it seems Sirius was in his forth (or possibly fifth) year at Hogwarts when Bella was in her seventh year. > > This age creates a problem in my reconstruction Valky: All credit to you for noting the inconsistencies that appear Neri, but respectfully, perhaps what you are seeing is not a Flint but a clue to the order of things in the wizard world. If we put the girls order on the tree as denoting youngest to eldest from L-R instead Bella becomes the youngest, and Narcissa could well be in Lucius Malfoy's same year at Hogwarts. (although I definitely like very much the Snape and Narcissa may have been friends connection underlining Snape and Lucius familiarity this really does work in favour of canon and could easily be true) I did try looking at Sirius and Regulus tree canon to see if I could back myself on the reverse order scenario but unfortunately there is nothing on appearing order there at all. Again respectfully, because you have obviously looked harder than I on this particular matter, maybe it is so that JKR refers to the Lexicon timelines as an additional note, not *only* because they are accurate but also because they represent a tangible summary of the canon that can more easily with the proper tools be flipped to show the reverse order. More easily, that is, than a few scattered lines in large pile of notebooks. Neri concludes: > My last question for today is: Is Andromeda still around? It thus seems that we might have some reunion of the three Black sisters before the end. > > Valky: Yes I think she is definitely around and that we will see them altogether before too long. Perhaps we will meet Andromeda at a memorial for Sirius in book six. From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sun Jul 18 04:06:11 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 00:06:11 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Three Black sisters on a tree Message-ID: <1de.24f61632.2e2b5133@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106733 Neri continues: > This order strongly suggests to me that Bella is the older sister > Andromeda is the median and Narcissa is the youngest > Now, I don't know anything about traditional genealogy, but > family trees I've seen on the web almost always follow the > convention of listing siblings from left to right according to > their age. =============================== Sherrie here: Yes, that is indeed standard genealogical presentation - but there's another possibility. What if the age difference isn't years - but rather minutes? We've seen that twins are not unknown in the WW - suppose that Bella & 'Drom are twins? Or even (though this is stretching, I suppose) that the three girls are triplets? Sherrie "Unless history lives in our present, it has no future." PRESERVE OUR CIVIL WAR BATTLEFIELDS! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From elfundeb at comcast.net Sun Jul 18 04:07:30 2004 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb2) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 04:07:30 -0000 Subject: Brain Attack (WAS: Harry and Hagrid (re: Two Crazy Theories) In-Reply-To: <02c201c46c17$158630e0$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106734 vmonte wrote: Or how about Ron's brain attack? This > > could be another way for JKR to bring back info from the past. > > If the brain belonged to Godric then Ron might have important > > information to impart and a penseive could be used for all to see > > that past. (Why else would add the brain attack anyway.) Charme responded: > That brain attack is a curious occurance, isn't it? I remember Madame > Pomphrey stating in OoP that "thoughts" left deeper scarring than anything > else, so it makes you wonder what exactly Ron experienced. It also apparent > it wasn't an enjoyable experience - what if it didn't belong to Godric? I'm quite fascinated by all the speculation about *whose* brain attacked Ron and what thoughts he has been scarred with because I see the brain attack primarily as a metaphorical event, part of the package of metaphors that comprises the DoM sequence. Thoughts leave scars, according to Madam Pomfrey, but Ron's scars seem to be on his arms, and not in his brain, so it may be something of a leap for the thoughts to have taken root. Ron's injury -- in which the tentacles of thought enveloped him and left him unable to move, seems appropriate to him, since he's been plagued for years with thoughts of his inadequacy in comparison to his older brothers, scarring him into refusing even to try to compete. Also, Ron "left the hospital wing completely cured three days before the end of term." As the antidote to his welts was to apply copious amounts of "Dr Ubbly's Oblivious Unction" it sounds as though the cure took away any memory of any extraneous thoughts. But I like the "Godric Gryffindor's brain" theory anyway. Debbie whose post about the brain metaphor was 82816 From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 04:55:10 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 04:55:10 -0000 Subject: Three Black sisters on a tree In-Reply-To: <1de.24f61632.2e2b5133@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106735 Valky: LOL I actually got Draco as Rudolphus' Son! When reading the message board. Neri: my apologies to Draco. It seems Yahoo do not recognize spaces as the first character in a line. I'll try replacing the spaces with dots (but you still need to use an even font like Courier to get it right). The Tree thus looks like: ................... .R===B...A...N===L. ...............!... ...............D... ................... And before the weddings it must have been like this: ................... .....B...A...N..... ................... ................... ................... > Sherrie here: > > Yes, that is indeed standard genealogical presentation - but there's another > possibility. What if the age difference isn't years - but rather minutes? > We've seen that twins are not unknown in the WW - suppose that Bella & 'Drom are > twins? Or even (though this is stretching, I suppose) that the three girls > are triplets? > Neri: Good idea, although you would perhaps expect Sirius to mention that Andromeda is Bella's twin. I've just thought about another simple way to spare poor Andromeda the scandal of teen pregnancy in addition to the shame of her M*dblood husband. It might be assumed that Bellatrix is actually 4 years older than the Marauders (5 years is also possible but seems too much, since Sirius mentioned Snape in the same "gang of Slytherins" with the Lestranges, but didn't mention Lucius in this gang). When Sirius says to Harry "I didn't see Bellatrix since I was your age" he means that he saw her last at the Black house, after she had already graduated from Hogwarts. She was 19 and he was 15. In this case Andromeda could be 18 at the time, and giving birth to Tonks at such an age is not so terrible. Neri From snow15145 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 06:55:39 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 06:55:39 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore knows Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106736 Harry asked Dumbledore what he saw when he looked into the mirror of Erised and his reply was a pair of woolen socks. SS chap. The Mirror of Erised pg. 214: "What do you see when you look in the mirror?" "I? I see myself holding a pair of thick, woolen socks." In GOF chap. The Yule Ball pg. 409: Dobby now handed Harry a small package, which turned out to be-socks. "Dobby is making them himself, sir!" the elf said happily. "He is buying the wool out of his wages, sir!" Curious-er and Curious-er. Dumbledore's deepest desire is to have a thick pair of "woolen socks" and what does Harry receive from Dobby but a pair of woolen socks. Dumbledore has a scar of London underground; Harry has a lightening bolt-shaped scar. Dumbledore fought a Dark Wizard; Harry has to fight a Dark Lord. Dumbledore's phoenix is Fawks; Harry's wand core is from Fawks. Dumbledore desires woolen socks; Harry receives woolen socks. What is the connection between Harry and Dumbledore? OOP chap. The Lost Prophecy pg. 828: " I was sure that if he realized that our relationship was- or had ever been -closer than that of headmaster and pupil, he would seize his chance to use you as a means to spy on me. Is it a means to spy on Dumbledore or a means to spy on Dumbledore's greatest fear? Dumbledore's greatest fear would then be the above statement. Dumbledore may be closer (than headmaster and pupil) to Harry because of the fight that Dumbledore fought against Grindlewald and the fight that Harry must have with Voldemort. Dumbledore has been there and needs to teach Harry how to combat his assailant. COS chap. The Heir of Slytherin pg. 313: "Voldemort," said Riddle softly, "is my past, present, and future, Harry Potter " This statement, IMO, leads me to believe that Voldemort is a separate entity from Riddle. "Voldemort" said Riddle " They are as one but not one in the same. This entity, Voldemort, Dark Lord, Dark Wizard, Grindlewald, may be Salizar Slytherin who has possessed many over his life span of the undead. SS pg. 298 "He is still out there somewhere, perhaps looking for another body to share not being truly alive, he cannot be killed " To vanquish just the shell of the person who has been possessed by this entity will not vanquish the entity itself. Quirrell was killed and yet the beast within lived on until it reappeared in another's form. SS chap. The Man with Two Faces pg. 293 "See what I have become?" the face said. "Mere shadow and vapor I have form only when I can share another's body but there have always been those willing to let me into their hearts and minds " Those? Must have happened many times before. If this is true, then when the entity possessed Tom Riddle and became Voldemort attacked the innocent baby Harry, a portion of Tom Riddle was left to dwell within Harry (COS pg. 333 "Voldemort put a bit of himself in me?" Harry said, thunderstruck." "It certainly seems so."). The split in Harry's head as a scar represents the split of Tom Riddle. The remaining part of Tom Riddle still resides with the entity known as Voldemort. When Voldemort lost the body he was residing in he became less powerful. Harry can sense that part of Tom Riddle that resides in him. COS chap. The Very Secret Diary pg. 233: And while Harry was sure he had never heard the name T. M. Riddle before, it still seemed to mean something to him, almost as though Riddle was a friend he'd had when he was very small, and had half forgotten. In the first several books Harry's scar only hurt when he was actually in physical contact with Voldemort. After Voldemort's re- birth, Harry had a stronger sense of presence. The shared part of Tom Riddle, which now is in both Harry and Voldemort, has become more alive. SS chap. The Keeper of the Keys pg. 57 " Dunno if he had enough human left in him to die." Voldemort had enough human Tom Riddle in him not to die but to sustain to the point of his rebirth. This rebirth brought the Tom Riddle factor back strong enough that the remains of Tom Riddle that lies almost dormant in Harry becomes the connection between Voldemort and Harry. Now Harry's scar almost always hurts. When they are physically together it becomes unbearable. Many have seen the uncanny resemblance of a younger character to a counterpart older character, Hermione to McGonnagall, Ron to Dumbledore and possibly Grindlewald to Voldemort. History repeats itself but not if Dumbledore has recognized that defeating the shell of this entity will not vanquish it. Instead of Harry killing the possessor he may have to save the shell of the person that is being possessed, which is Tom Riddle who has been split into two separate embodiments, one of which resides in himself the other in Voldemort. Instead of killing off the body that houses the Dark Lord, Harry will save that which dwells in it (the remaining half of Tom Riddle), which will end the possession and vanquish the entity because the entity that is the Dark Lord cannot exist without some factor of a living soul. Snow From oppen at mycns.net Sun Jul 18 07:10:33 2004 From: oppen at mycns.net (ericoppen) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 07:10:33 -0000 Subject: Percy Weasley and "Donnie Brasco" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106737 Until I hear definitely (as in from Herself herself) that Percy turned against his family for base reasons, I shall continue to stick to my own theory about his motivations. My theory is that he was working for Dumbledore all the time, as a deep-cover mole, like "Donnie Brasco" did infilitrating the Mafia. The thing about a deep-cover penetration is that you have to _live the role_ nearly every waking minute of your life...you _become_ the sort of person you're pretending to be, while never losing sight of your ultimate, long-term goals. It's a difficult thing to do, and most people probably couldn't carry it off. Let us not forget, learned colleagues, that Dumbledore is a very old, very Machiavellian man (pausing for a moment, imagining Dumbledore meeting the intrigue-happy star-noblemen in the _Dune_ universe) who plays his cards very close to the chest, and probably has six or seven contingency plans ready to go. Planting a deep-cover mole in the ranks of the Ministry would be one of quite a few things he might well do if he anticipated conflict with the Ministry, either due to DE infiltration and subversion of the Ministry (cue the ESE!Fudge theory here) or due to sheer ineptitude, incompetence and unwillingness to look facts in the face. At least, I can easily imagine this as an obvious move to make, and I somehow doubt I'm as smart as Dumbledore. In some ways, Percy's role as Dumbledore's mole would be less difficult than most moles. He doesn't have to adopt a new identity--- he's still Percy "Weatherby" Weasley, bright young upcoming star at the Ministry. However, when the other Weasleys openly sided with Dumbledore against the Ministry, Percy would _have to_ have a public, noisy falling-out with them, and make it look good, in order to keep their confidence. This would be sufficient to explain his behavior, even up to and including his horrible behavior toward his mother. To succeed at this, Percy-the-overachiever would have to _live_ the role, as I said above...I don't think that "Donnie Brasco's" new friends in the Mafia would have smiled at him if he'd suddenly displayed sympathy for the cops, now would they? If Percy is a mole, he literally can't talk about it to anybody except maybe Dumbledore. He wouldn't know who else could be trusted-- -and he'd know that if he confided in, say, his mother, and she got caught and sufficiently, er, "persuaded" his cover would be blown wide open. Neither he nor Dumbledore could know that Lord Thingy would be so incredibly stupidly overconfident to show his face in the Ministry itself, so for all they knew, it could go on for _years._ If Percy really is a mole, though, I expect some very red faces around the Weasley household when the truth does come out---not least because of all of them, Percy is the only one who could pull this sort of trick off. From patientx3 at aol.com Sun Jul 18 08:18:29 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 08:18:29 -0000 Subject: Clarification On Terminology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106738 Lee wrote: > First, let's try "wizard" and "warlock". For the most part, people > are referred to as witches or wizards, but then the term warlock > pops up and I'm at a loss as to what distinguishes a wizard from a > warlock or visa versa. Asian_lovr2 replied: >> The best we could come up with was that it was a cultural thing. Harry seems to know a warlock when the sees one, he speaks of seeing them in the Leaky Cauldron and Three Broomstick. In a room full of wizard, he specifically mentions a select group of warlocks. So they are identifiable. The best I could come up with was that 'wizard' is a Western European term for magical males, and 'warlock' is an Eastern European term for the same thing. Harry identifies warlock based on regional dialets and general appearance. I picture, Eastern Europeans being similar to Krum; dark hair, dark eyes, pale or olive skin, thick accets, etc << HunterGreen: In this same vein, what on earth is a hag? There also obviously identifiable from witches, but what is the difference? I've always wondered that. I know its slang meaning, but it clearly has a different context here. From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Sun Jul 18 08:26:26 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 18 Jul 2004 08:26:26 -0000 Subject: Life debt, Lavender, Draco and Fawkes Message-ID: <20040718082626.26971.qmail@webmail10.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106739 - Kneasy - As for Ginny, Dudders, etc. No, Harry was busy saving his own life - at the time; their survival was incidental to and a consequence of his - own survival. Amey: Not for Ginny, he went willingly to the CoS to save her. It was his decision to go there. As for Dudders, yes, it was saving both the skins at the same time. And I don't think Dudders is bright enough to nitice Harry saved him. - Ginger: - Lavender has been seen as a Muggleborn by some listees as she didn't - know what the Grim was. I say that sounds reasonable. Amey: Also, one more thing, she has (er.. had) a rabbit as her pet. Seems so mugglish doesn?t it? I mean they are not even mentioned on the school list, and nobody has them as pets im Hogwarts. - Demetra - An unimportant side note, but I wondered why the heck Sirius never - bought Lupin a new set of dang robes? Sirius obviously has the - money. I suppose it could be a pride thing with Lupin (like Ron), - but Harry managed to procure a new set of dress robes for his - friend. Why couldnt Sirius? Amey: Harry arranged *Gred and Forge* to give the robes to Ron, who would give it to Lupin? Nymphadora maybe? - Alla: - I argued earlier that I find the condemnation of every eleven year - old who comes to Slytherin to be very silly, because children cannot - be evil at eleven. Amey: What would you call young Draco at age 11? Ok, we are using the word evil very freely here, but to say it politely, he comes up as a stuck-up young boy who needs a bit of cane every day to keep him on ground. (Sorry, can't help it) - [Lee]: - Possible...very possible. And, also possible, that Fawkes will be a constant - fixture at Hogwarts, moving from Headmaster to Headmaster, which would - preclude Harry getting him. Amey: Imagine Fawkes serving Phinus Nigellus!!!! Help!!! I don?t think he is passed from Headmaster to Headmaster, Dumbledore got him as a pet from somewhere or somebody (maybe Godric as may people say here). Dumbledore seems as the natural successor. Phoenixes live many years and so, it might be there from founder?s time as well. Amey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From patientx3 at aol.com Sun Jul 18 08:34:49 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 08:34:49 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius lure Severus into the Willow? (was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106740 HunterGreen previously: > I saw that more as him doing his duty as either a teacher or an > order member. It appears to be an unwritten part of the job >description at Hogwarts to protect children from certain, >er, 'dangers'. Snape is not the type to standby and let *anyone* be >killed if he can help it (example being his sarcastic comment to >Crabbe or Goyle in OotP for them not to squeeze Neville so >hard...not some sweeping act of heroicy, but it worked). Potioncat replied: >> I don't think it's in the teachers' job description. We don't see McGonagall or Flitwick lurking about trying to protect Harry. << HunterGreen: Well, that's why I said 'unwritten'. Lockhart was turned to help save Ginny in CoS (to which he does indeed complain that it wasn't in the job description, but it was expected of him anyway). And in PS/SS, all the teachers were called upon to help get the troll out of the school. In PoA, Dumbledore calls upon the teachers to search the school for Sirius. (and Sirius himself later tells Harry 'it was brave of you not to run for a teacher...' in the shrieking shack). >> Now, if Snape is Potions Master, Head of Slytherin and Chief of Security, perhaps it is his duty. But I don't think so. << Well, that's the problem isn't it? There *isn't* someone in charge of security around the school. And the school almost never calls for outside help (the one exception being the dementers in PoA, but Dumbledore doesn't let them inside, so inside security is up to the teachers). I actually found it a little odd that they didn't call for help during the events of CoS, but it appears, for the most part, the school takes care of its own problems internally (including all injuries we've seen, no matter how serious, except for McGonagal in OotP). From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 18 08:40:39 2004 From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 09:40:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re James the berk and Lily the angel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040718084039.24362.qmail@web25301.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106741 Sandra wrote: Sandra wrote. On James in Snapes memory: For me this episode in the book was always the `typical' deconstruction for/by Harry of the hero image of his father. A very important way to `grow up' and find his own way in life and look into his own strengths. And also a tiny step towards reconciling Snape and Harry, although that never took place really, very unfortunate IMO. In OoP Sirius wanted Harry so much to be like James but that ultimately needed to fail. And especially in PoA James is painted so much as Harry's ultimate hero, with no flaws, just a `perfect' memory. Which then brings me to Lily, as the pure, perfect, angel-like? I do see her like this at the moment too, but isn't that just a `perfect' memory too? Udderpd >From the first time I read the Snape Pensive scene I have fhought that it was a set up. Snape put that particular memory in the pensive in order to discredit James in Harry's eyes. He then had Draco call him out so that Harry (being typical Harry) would view the memory. Subsequently Malfoy never once mentions remedial Potions and that in itself is strange. TTFN Udder PenDragon ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Sun Jul 18 08:50:52 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 18 Jul 2004 08:50:52 -0000 Subject: Vanquishing Voldemort (Nick) Message-ID: <20040718085052.27260.qmail@webmail8.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106742 - meltowne" - Was Tom Riddle (the muggle) really TMR's father, or did his mother - just use his name? Who was Marvolo? Amey: "My mother died just after I was born, sir. They told me at the orphanage she lived just long enough to name me - Tom after my father, Marvolo after my grandfather." (CoS) Marvolo seems to be the name of his grandfather on his mother's side. I mean the name is not mugglish enough, but looks like some noble name. Remember he is the descendent of Slytherin. But this is imagination on my part. Ready for *fors and againsts*. - David Gabbard: - I'm glad you brought this quotation back up to the surface - What is Dumbledore referring to when he says "We both know there are other ways of destroying a man..." Why/What do they BOTH know? Have either one of them already destroyed a man in a way worse than killing him? Did Bellatrix just do that to Sirius? Is Dumbledore referring to "vapormort"? Amey: Remember * Dumbledore is particularly famous for his defeat of the dark wizard Grindelwald in 1945*. I am sure he did that without killing Grindelwald. And as many posters believe, Tom had some part in that. Remember Tom was in school around 1942, he was Prefect (at least 5th year). So in 1945, he must be either just out of school r just finishing his school. He might have seen the battle, got some taste of Dark Powers there, and went on to discover more. Of course, he never tells us when he started calling himself Lord Voldemort (we know he used the name in school), so I am assuming, he got some inspiration from Grindelwald and also saw his defeat. Hi might have helped Dumbledore because he might not want another Dark Lord around. And he knows the amount of power Dukmbledore wields, so he is afraid of Dumbledore. He knows Dumbledore can defeat him (if not vanquish him). Wonder when is Dumbledore? birthday!!! One more thought on prophesy, it says that the dark Lord will mark his vanquisher as his equal. So I suppose that rules out Dumbledore, as he is afraid of Dumbledore, Dumbledore is not his equal, he is his superior. Dumbledore mentions *destroying a man*, there are really many ways. He is already working on one of them for years. LV?s reputation is based on fear his name invokes in people, and Dumbledore is fighting against that for many years. (I mean, if some muggle looks at the name, he will surely think that the person with this weird name must be some ancient noble from some poor country who doesn?t have anything other than his title). Destroy the man?s reputation as a powerful dark wizard, show him nobody fears him and you destroy him. Take out his minions and he is alone, forced to do all the work himself. Unite all the people against him and the most powerful man will bend. Show him that his worst weapon (sowing discord among people) is useless, and he will be forced to change his strategy. Anybody think of anything else? Amey, who thinks life without recognition is worst than death [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Sun Jul 18 09:30:01 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 18 Jul 2004 09:30:01 -0000 Subject: Time Travel by Harry and Black Family Tree Message-ID: <20040718093001.20519.qmail@webmail6.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106743 - Alla: - Jen, if Harry inded goes back in time as it was speculated could be - it be that he goes back to the Founders Time and talks to Salasar and - Godric and finds out what truly happened between them and how the - rift can be healed back in our days? - I don't know, I like that, but I think it is more likely that Harry - will go to GH, if he were to go at all. - Maybe he will make couple of stops on his journey? - Maybe Harry will ask Salasar whether Voldemort is true heir? (I know, - it is quite an outlandish speculation) Amey: I doubt Dumbledore will allow Harry to go into past to change anything in the past which is of such a great importance. I mean dissolving the rift between GG and SS will mean that there is no CoS, no basilisk, and at the very least, that removes at least 1 death and at least 4-5 near deaths (I mean, we don?t know when CoS was opened before TR opened it, so we don?t have exact figures, but I think somehow there are very few deaths, as even 1 death was enough to put the school on threshold of shutting down in TR?s time). So that makes a really huge change in the time fabric. Also, going to GH, I doubt Harry will be able to help his parents. If he does and that is where LV is vanquished, his parents are not dead, he has no scar (hell, did I just predict the end of part 7? People, you heard it here first. Hogwarts, here I come as next Divination teacher). All in all, I doubt Harry will change any deaths, if he goes at all, it will be just going to watch and learn, not do anything. - Neri - Having Narcissa in Slytherin in the same or similar year as young - Severus might lead to some interesting dynamics, especially as Lucius - was not there, and in light of the present day relations between - Snape and Lucius. I leave this to your wild imagination, as we're - already late in this lengthy post. Amey: A really great analysis! I have one point which might solve the discrepancy. We are told nowhere that all BAN were born to same parents. They are all cousins of Sirius, but they may have different parents. Personally I think, Narcissa is same age or 1-2 years older than Marauders (and Lily) as their children are same age group. Andromeda is at least 3-4 years older, given Nymphadora?s age, and Bellatrix is around Lucius?s age, 1-2 years younger. That makes IMO, Narcissa and Andromeda as borm of same parents and Bella as their cousin. Amey, who is hoping at least Andromeda inherits 12,GP [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sun Jul 18 10:02:26 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 06:02:26 -0400 Subject: Polyjuiced Hermione Message-ID: <001c01c46cae$55b87dc0$77c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 106744 Jem wrote: > Why, if you can regrow bones overnight, does it take 3 weeks to > unpolyjuice Hermione? That's the issue for me, not that Hermione > doesn't want to be seen, but why this magic of Madame Pomfrey's > seems so out of whack with all her other remedies. ~tina said: "It does seem rather inconsistent that it took so long. But, if we remember that when Arthur Weasley was in St. Mungo's and the healers had a bit of a hard time figuring out how to cure him (he kept bleeding when the bandages were removed) then it kind of makes sense." Not to mention Marietta Edgecombe. She may still have been covered in "sneak" pustules on the trip home from Hogwarts as she was wearing a belaclava. That may have been from sheer embarrassment but who knows? But Umbridge said they couldn't work out a counter jinx. DuffyPoo [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Jul 18 13:11:42 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 13:11:42 -0000 Subject: Sirius Luring Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106745 > Alla: > > Yes, I know that everyone is distantly related, but I am thinking more about direct relatives. There was something that Harry did not pay attention to on that tapestry, right? Another surprise for us?< Pippin: Could be. I just don't think that a major plot point is going to hinge on long lost relatives. Too Star Wars. Alla: > Hmmm, Snape polyjuicing himself? Could be, could be. > > I want to hear more. Do you think he tried to court Lily disguised as James?< Pippin: I've thought of that...trouble is, the chronology doesn't fit. If the prank happened in sixth year, then James hadn't started going out with Lily yet. On the other hand maybe that's the point. It would be very funny and a typical JKR twist if Snape-as-James was somehow responsible for Lily's change of heart. Maybe... > Alla: > As for Lupin, well it is just metathinking, but as I said before he looked at Harry with so much love and pain in his eyes, that I cannot imagine him to be evil anymore. I just can't< We know he's capable of murder. That much of ESE!Lupin is canon. He was going to kill Pettigrew...and you don't think he had it in him to try to kill Snape? ::shrugs:: Pippin From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Jul 18 15:02:47 2004 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 18 Jul 2004 15:02:47 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1090162967.27.94298.m3@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106746 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, July 18, 2004 Time: 11:00AM CDT (GMT-05:00) Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. Chat times do not change for Daylight Saving/Summer Time. Chat generally goes on for about 5 hours, but can last as long as people want it to last. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type: /join HP:1 Hope to see you there! From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sun Jul 18 15:17:10 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 15:17:10 -0000 Subject: Andromeda (Re: Three Black sisters on a tree) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106747 Neri: > My last question for today is: Is Andromeda still around? Sirius > says: "Andromeda WAS my favorite cousin" but that's just because he > didn't see her for so many years. Tonks OTOH says in Ch. 3: "My mum's > got this knack of getting stuff to fit itself in neatly ? she even > GETS the socks to fold themselves ? but I've never mastered how she > DOES it". It thus seems that we might have some reunion of the three > Black sisters before the end. Jen: I DO think Andromeda is still around, since Tonks speaks of her in the present-tense. I always took Sirius' quote to mean Andromeda was his favorite cousin in childhood, but they haven't seen each other in adulthood, thus the past tense reference. It seems a little late in the game to introduce a major character like Tonks, and indirectly Andromeda, if they don't hold some key to either the past or the future. Andromeda may even prove to be the most important character of the two, the one who holds the information about Lily's past. Even if she was a bit older than Lily, the two could have been friends and worked together prior to Lily's death. In fact, since Andromeda was older and married to a Muggle-born, she & Lily would have much in common. And personally, Tonks seems a bit of a red herring to me. I think her importance is to give Harry information about Metamorphagi & Aurors, and to introduce Andromeda. Tonks will continue to be involved in the plot, and will use her Metamophagus skills at some crucial moment, but she's not going to turn out to be other than she appears. Or maybe I'm way off here. :) Jen Reese From ms-tamany at rcn.com Sun Jul 18 15:43:07 2004 From: ms-tamany at rcn.com (Tammy Rizzo) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 11:43:07 -0400 Subject: Oh my goodness, what book are THEY reading? Message-ID: <40FA9A8B.3080701@rcn.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106748 In the NY Times today (I subscribe to the email highlights, not the paper itself), in the Arts section, is this article, 'Harry Potter, Market Wiz', translated from a french article published over there last month. Here is the link (it might require a free registration for you to read it): http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/18/opinion/18YOCA.html?th I just finished it, and I can't help but wonder, what on EARTH are they putting in the French translations?! Or is this just one more example of someone reading the books with a particular agenda in mind, and thereby skewing their perceptions towards their own pre-set bias? Anyway, I'm sorry this is such a short little bit, but it really shook me. I mean, I open the Times email and see an article on HP and think, "Hey, great!" Then I read the article and it's just . . . well, I suppose it's not actually vitrioloc, but it burns me, it really does. Oh, and one more thing, for Shawn Hately -- your essays are usually quite interesting (and so was this last one), but they're also usually *either* so well put that all I could do would be send a dreaded one-liner saying, "me, too", *or* so highbrow that I haven't got a clue how to put any objections I might possibly have to your conclusions in such a way that I wouldn't look like some podunk hick just kicking back against something so far above her intellect that she'd be drowning if it were water. I think that may very well be the reason why you get almost no response to your months-of-research essays. In other words, you're just too smart for your own good, Shawn, bless your heart! *giggle* ;-) *** Tammy Rizzo ms-tamany at rcn.com From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 18 16:11:32 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 16:11:32 -0000 Subject: "I'm not proud of it" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106749 I would like to nominate this as one of the most meaningless phrases in the English language. When Sirius uses it to Harry about the Pensieve incident, I felt like yelling "No, you damned well shouldn't be. What's to be proud of in behaving like an arrogant bully?" In my experience people who use this phrase normally add a silent "But I'm not ashamed either". "I'm not proud of it" simply isn'tsufficient excuse. I am not convinced that Sirius really thought that he and James were arrogant little berks. As HunterGreen points out, he is still calling Snape by the silly nickname Snivellus and neither he nor Lupin seem to appreciate how deeply hurt Harry is. But I was proud of Harry for snapping back "I'm fifteen!" when Lupin offered the lame excuse that James was only fifteen. Sylvia From squeakinby at tds.net Sun Jul 18 16:50:57 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 12:50:57 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Oh my goodness, what book are THEY reading? In-Reply-To: <40FA9A8B.3080701@rcn.com> References: <40FA9A8B.3080701@rcn.com> Message-ID: <40FAAA71.8060902@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 106750 Tammy Rizzo wrote: > In the NY Times today (I subscribe to the email highlights, not the > paper itself), in the Arts section, is this article, 'Harry Potter, > Market Wiz', translated from a french article published over there last > month. Thanks for pointing that out! Boy, it was my laugh of the day. One at first thinks he didn't read the books but of course, he must have because he got the names right. So then the only explanation can be the ancient rivalry between France and England which has now extended to America, having rapidly ruled out any unbiased analysis of the actual work of fiction and here I'm speaking of the Potter books not the review itself. Cedric Diggory obviously represents the symbolic poor individual and/or countries Anglo-Saxon, capitalistic and debased societies (who shall remain nameless but wink wink, we in old Europe know full well who they are) take advantage of hence for whom no resolution is fit but death. Luckily there is still France to uphold all that's good and wise about civilization and can still resist the totalitarianism of the vile marketplace. Oh let's go have another croissant, shall we? Then do some shopping in our trendy boutiques, spending beaucoup euros on transient fashions from Parisien ateliers. Jem From patientx3 at aol.com Sun Jul 18 16:55:55 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 16:55:55 -0000 Subject: "I'm not proud of it" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106751 Slyvia wrote: >> "I'm not proud of it" simply isn'tsufficient excuse. I am not convinced that Sirius really thought that he and James were arrogant little berks. As HunterGreen points out, he is still calling Snape by the silly nickname Snivellus and neither he nor Lupin seem to appreciate how deeply hurt Harry is. << HunterGreen: They really don't, do they? Sirius has such a warped view of James, that it doesn't occur to him how different Harry is in many ways. When Snape compares James to Harry, Sirius just doesn't see how that could be negative. Whereas the moment he sees what James was really like, Harry sees it as negative immediately. In fact it *disturbs* him. Its interesting that during the floo-powder scene (just after the pensieve scene), that Lupin and Sirius start talking about James in affectionate terms when Harry is clearly very upset. Concerning Sirius, he may or may not feel any shame or remorse for the incident, but I do think he's matured a small amount since then (enough so that when he looks back, he realizes how stupid it was). Not only does he say "I'm not proud of it", he also calls him and James 'idiots' several times. When it comes to him and Snape, I think they just have a bad influence on each other. Like I said in the post you referenced, Snape doesn't act very mature during these confrontations either. Sirius is very emotional, and is the type that doesn't think things out, therefore it would be quite in character for him to get caught up in the heat of the moment. (I'm not excusing his actions, just trying to explain them). Not only that, but knowing Snape when Snape was still the enemy, makes it very hard for him to accept Snape on the Order's side. Much as if an adult Draco joined the Order....how would Harry react to that? From patientx3 at aol.com Sun Jul 18 17:03:20 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 17:03:20 -0000 Subject: Re James the berk and Lily the angel In-Reply-To: <20040718084039.24362.qmail@web25301.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106752 Udderpd wrote: >> From the first time I read the Snape Pensive scene I have fhought that it was a set up. Snape put that particular memory in the pensive in order to discredit James in Harry's eyes. He then had Draco call him out so that Harry (being typical Harry) would view the memory. << HunterGreen: I very much disagree. Snape didn't understand that that would discredit Jamaes in Harry's eyes. He doesn't really know Harry well enough to know that Harry would find that memory abhorrent as opposed to, in Snape's words, 'amusing'. Snape is genuienally embarassed when he pulls Harry out of the pensieve, and is genuienally uncomfortable around Harry afterwards. I know this is Snape, but that's quite an act to pull. IMO he put the scenes in the pensieve to block his hatred of James, and by reflection Harry. Snape's attitude toward Harry changes slightly in the first lesson after he puts the memories in the pensieve. (I never agreed he put things in there that he was worried Harry would break through and see, since he is quite surprised when Harry uses a shield charm). From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 17:04:33 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 17:04:33 -0000 Subject: Pureblood attitudes and the word "racism" (Was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106753 Alla wrote : > If I was defending person like Bella in court, I would make sure I > would learn all of them, to show the judge and jury how poor Bella > was just victim of the circumstances, but I can allow myself a > luxury of not doing so with the fictional character Del replies : We agree then :-) I guess the problem that arises too often is that not everyone will agree on which character they want to understand or not. For example, I'm having that problem with Percy : the vast majority of people just plain dislike him and couldn't care less about his inner workings. So I get kind of ticked off when someone says "Percy is just a stupid egocentric fool" (I'm not saying that he can't be though. Maybe he is, but maybe he's not). And yes, as you can see, I'm being emotional too :-) Alla wrote : > Del, I just meant that my emotions will always be present in my > posts. Del replies : We all do that I guess. Alla wrote : > You could be right. I think it is very possible that Rowling will do > away all the Houses at the end of the book, or Slytherins will be > choosen based on their cunning and ambition, not on whether they > are "pure-bloods" Del replies : But even cunning and ambition seem to be regarded as negative traits. All the other Houses favour character traits that are positive without ambiguity (courage, intelligence, hard work and loyalty), but Slytherin favours a quality that is most of the time described as negative : ambition. Just look at how people dislike Percy because he's ambitious, how they often conclude that's he's going to end up evil just because of his ambition. Del From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 17:08:34 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 17:08:34 -0000 Subject: Filk: The Great Dementor Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106754 "The Great Dementor" to the tune of "The Great Pretender" by the Platters. Words and music by Buck Ram (what a great name!) To Pixieberry (been meaning to get one out to you, luv, just been busy with RL) Probably the first solo by a dementor, as we don't have any canon to prove that they can actually speak :o) Oh, Oh, yes, I'm the great dementor. I'm guarding each Azkaban cell. Each happy thought takes off at a trot. They're living in dementor Hell. Oh, Oh, yes, I'm the great dementor. Each Ego I've seen has been blown. Superego and Id all must go. I've sucked them; just left skin and bone. To steal what they feel is their worst ordeal. Surreal when I peel souls for my three-course meal. Yes, I'm the great dementor. I make all the prisoners frown. My stench, so rich, could depress a switch, They're stuck here, and all going down. Descending to graves underground. To steal what they feel is their worst ordeal. Surreal when I peel souls for my three-course meal. Yes, I'm the great dementor. I make all the prisoners frown. My stench, so rich, could depress a switch, They're stuck here, and all going down. Descending to graves underground. Ginger, feeling a bit morbid today. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 17:25:45 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 17:25:45 -0000 Subject: Andromeda (Re: Three Black sisters on a tree) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106755 Jen Reese wrote : > And personally, Tonks seems a bit of a red herring to me. I think > her importance is to give Harry information about Metamorphagi & > Aurors, and to introduce Andromeda. Del replies : Metamorphagi are rare. Are they also inherited ? Did Tonks inherit her power from one of her parents ? If so, have we already met Ted or Andromeda under another name ? Del From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 17:40:31 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 17:40:31 -0000 Subject: Filk: Furry White Ball Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106756 "Furry White Ball" to the tune of "Red Rubber Ball" by the Cyrkle. Words and Music by Paul Simon (I didn't know that, did you?) and Bruce Woodley. To Haggridd, you're a gem, you know that? Ron, after the "bouncing ferret" incident, sings: He didn't know Mad-Eye's in the hall Or he would'nt'a had the fortitude to give you that close call. Now I'd like this moment preserved for eternity. When I glimpse his ugly face again, I know what I will see. CHORUS And I think of him, amazing white. Yeah, he shot around the hall. Old Draco Malfoy's bouncing like a furry white ball. Moody came 'round, trechery he decried. Cuz Malfoy cursed behind your back with his goons at his side. Always bragging, never thinking. How he tends to live! Now he's getting back some of the *cough* he likes to give. CHORUS The story in the post he did recount to all. He thought my Mum too grand, and my Dad he made look small. The Flying Anglia we took so school we could attend Has caused some trouble with my folks, I've got a fence to mend. CHORUS Repeat CHORUS Ginger, not only morbid, but nasty! From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Jul 18 17:49:48 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 17:49:48 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius lure Severus into the Willow? (was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106757 Huntergreen wrote: > Well, that's the problem isn't it? There *isn't* someone in charge of > security around the school. And the school almost never calls for > outside help (the one exception being the dementers in PoA, but > Dumbledore doesn't let them inside, so inside security is up to the > teachers). Potioncat: I just realized your point was that Snape isn't working on a life debt obligation, he's protecting Harry out of general sense of duty. Actually, that makes it even more noble (Did you intend that?) Do I recall that you don't agree with DD's statement about the Life Debt? I may have to find time to look into that...it is the sort of dis-information DD might hand out. Although I said myself, I don't think Chief of Security is part of Snape's job. It might be. He seems to be the one who is most concerned by it. Whether it's his nature or his responsibility, I couldn't say. Potioncat From garybec101 at comcast.net Sun Jul 18 17:59:16 2004 From: garybec101 at comcast.net (garybec) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 17:59:16 -0000 Subject: Lily's sacrifice - Voldemort's 'Mark' In-Reply-To: <96773c8804071715282a7700df@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106758 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, James Lawlor wrote: > dcgmck: > > This is something that has been bothering me ever since I first read > > that pesky prophecy. I do not see Voldemort as recognizing Harry, or anyone else for that matter, as an equal. > James: > The way I see it, Voldemort "marked" Harry by trying to kill him > first. He felt that Harry was the biggest threat - the one most likely > to defeat him. Becki's new idea on this dreaded prophecy; "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches..." Couldn't this first line be interperated that Harry was born with the power to vanquish the DL, and, in fact, did not recieve any extra powers during the "Marking". Who is to say that Harry isn't born with such exceptional powers, including the Parceltongue. I know Dumbledore says that the LV passed some of his powers to Harry during the marking, but isn't he just speculating too? There is no where in the prophecy that it says that LV would transfer poweres to "The One", only that he would "Mark him as his equal". Harry could very well had already been his equal. Becki (who is going mad with all of these questions but then again, what will we do when the 7th book comes out?) My belief is that LV "Marked" Harry, fulfilling the prophecy, and in doing so demenstrated to all who is true enemy is. From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 18:22:52 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 18:22:52 -0000 Subject: Clarification On Terminology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106759 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "huntergreen_3" wrote: > Asian_lovr2 replied: > >> ... edited ... > > The best I could come up with was that 'wizard' is a Western > European term for magical males, and 'warlock' is an Eastern > European term for the same thing. Harry identifies warlock based > on regional dialets and general appearance. I picture, Eastern > Europeans being similar to Krum; dark hair, dark eyes, pale or olive > skin, thick accets, etc << > HunterGreen: > In this same vein, what on earth is a hag? There also obviously > identifiable from witches, but what is the difference? I've always > wondered that. I know its slang meaning, but it clearly has a > different context here. Asian_lovr2: First and foremost, Hags are hideously ugly and always female. Generally, they are considered magical beings, and are sometimes viewed as female demons. One key factor should be noted; their preferred food, at least in fairytales, is little children. That's about all I've got on them. Steve/asian_lovr2 From drliss at comcast.net Sun Jul 18 02:50:08 2004 From: drliss at comcast.net (Lissa Hess) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 22:50:08 -0400 Subject: Sirius and Lupin In-Reply-To: <1090095290.9296.76511.m20@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20040717223516.01e1eec0@mail.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 106760 Bunch of bits and pieces here.... HunterGreen: >When Harry *asks* about the incident in >the pensieve, Sirius says very clearly that he's not proud of it (of >course, that makes me wonder why he called Snape 'Snivellus' earlier >in the book, but oh well). He's rather derisive of both him and >James' actions when they were fifteen. Lissa: I've wondered about that spot. Sirius answered VERY quickly, looking straight at Lupin. I wonder if perhaps that was a sore spot between the two of them, and he's saying he's not proud of the Prank as much for Lupin's benefit as he is Harry's? Pippin: So Lupin manipulates Sirius into telling Snape the secret of the > willow, and uses any of several means to get Snape to try > it--imperius, a hotheadedness potion (is that too difficult for > Lupin to make?) a confundus charm, who knows? But the point > is, Lupin has nothing to lose. Even if he or Sirius is caught, it's > still better than all four of them going down. Lissa: The ESE!Lupin theory is one I just can't get behind. Not because I would slowly throttle JKR if she did that to my favorite character, but because she's admitted to playing with the theme of intolerance most of all with Lupin. The point she's been trying to get across with Lupin (as well as many other characters, but...) is that prejudice isn't right. Because he's been one of her focal characters for this theme, I can't see her having him be evil all this time, because it entirely changes her point. Lupin is a truly good person living with a terrible stigma, and I can't see her saying "see? He deserved it all the time!" I do think there's going to be a traitor in the midst somewhere, but I seriously doubt it will be Lupin. Demetra: I'm not too sure about this either, or was he simply clinging to Lupin (like he does with Harry, who looks like James) as the last reminder of the good old days. Certainly Lupin seems to be trying to help Sirius, but that seems to be Lupin's general nature. An unimportant side note, but I wondered why the heck Sirius never bought Lupin a new set of dang robes? Sirius obviously has the money. I suppose it could be a pride thing with Lupin (like Ron), but Harry managed to procure a new set of dress robes for his friend. Why couldnt Sirius? Lissa: Because Lupin didn't want to be a kept man? ;) Only candy and flowers from a gentleman, dearie! Ahem. As far as the Glory Days aspect of Lupin and Sirius's friendship in OotP, I think that's certainly there, but I don't think that's all. We don't see it first-hand because it's entirely Harry's POV, but there are some clues that the relationship is based in the here and now. I think the biggest is when Sirius tells the trio that they ought to hear Remus rant about Umbridge. Since WHEN does Remus rant? That's something we absolutely never see. The emotional intimacy is still there on Lupin's side, but I think the fact Sirius was listening, and the coherent way he mentions it indicates that he is investing something in this relationship as well. He IS seeing the present Lupin. (I suspect Lupin being so shabby now probably really pushes the point home too. It must be really hard to come back and find one of your best friends in such a state.) I do agree that there's a level of nostalgia and clinging to their relationship. I think it probably comes from both sides- not only has Sirius been alone and stagnated for 12 years, but Lupin's been an outcast for all that time as well. He's probably missed those days at Hogwarts just as much as Sirius. But I do think with the tasks at hand, everything that's happened with the rift in their friendship, James and Lily dying, Harry, Voldemort, etc., they've been forced to see each other as the people they are now as well. I think they just still fit together well, and at the moment I do actually mean that as friends. (This is not to say that I think their relationship is fluffy happiness. Not at all. Even though I fall into the theirloveiscanon camp, I think they probably had a lot of subjects they avoided and arguments we never see. Both these poor boys are so screwed up and the situation is so stressful I don't think it could be any other way as written. Evil, evil JKR. And I mean that as a compliment.) Anyway, I guess the summation of my ramblings is I think their relationship is brilliantly complicated. Wow. I take a lot of space just to say that. Lissa From cdayr at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 08:02:17 2004 From: cdayr at yahoo.com (cdayr) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 08:02:17 -0000 Subject: Hagrid and Mysterious Eggs Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106761 Hi from a newbie, ready to plunge into the discussion I have been scouring CoS in anticipation of HBP, looking for any unresolved threads I can see, and something recently caught my attention and imagination. I even went so far as to watch the movie again, and a small detail about Aragog really stood out to me and sent me scampering back to my books for the true details. In CoS, Aragog reveals his origins to Harry and Ron. "I was not born in the castle. I come from a distant land. A traveler gave me to Hagrid when I was an egg." (CoS15) Who is this traveler? Why such a specific word- "traveler"? Why give a killer beast to a 13-year-old? This "dangerous egg from a stranger" scenario also put me in mind of the hooded figure in SS/PS that conveniently gives Hagrid another egg, the dragon Norbert, and in doing so gains information about Fluffy guarding the Sorcerer's Stone. I began thinking- could Aragog have been given to Hagrid with a similar motive, all those years ago? It seems a suspicious coincidence to me that the two moments when LV/Riddle is searching for something at Hogwart's (first the Chamber of Secrets, later the Sorcerer's Stone) a mysterious stranger appears and gives Hagrid his heart's desire, a Class A Non-Tradeable egg to raise in secret. I assume, although it is never explicitly stated, that the mysterious "dragon dealer" in SS/PS is Quirrell/LV. What if LV knows that Hagrid might willingly talk to a nice hooded man with a dangerous egg because he knows he had done it 50 years before? Was it Riddle (in disguise) who gave Hagrid the Acromantula egg (not too likely, he's no traveler at that point)? Or, more likely, another wizard, someone Riddle meets or knows, someone who has access to illegal items? Did Hagrid inadvertently help Riddle open the Chamber of Secrets by letting a secret slip in his excitement about the egg (as he did with the SS)? What secrets could he have known at 13? A side benefit of the idea that Riddle was behind or aware of Hagrid getting Aragog is that it would explain how he knew about Aragog's existence and knew he could frame Hagrid for the killing. Perhaps LV's plan in SS/PS was to use Hagrid and Norbert as scapegoats again. I must confess that part of my current fascination with this idea comes from the fact that this small, seemingly insignificant detail about Aragog being passed onto Hagrid by a traveler actually makes it, almost word-for-word, into the movie CoS. It seems a silly expositional detail for a screenwriter to leave in during such a dramatic and high-stakes scene. Did JKR hint that it should stay in the movie? In the interview with JKR and Steve Kloves on the DVD, Steve says that at least "one thing that will play later on" stayed in the script, implying that JKR told him to leave it in when he meant to cut it. Could it be Aragog's origins? Pure speculation, but fun fun. So, I throw this out to you all who is this traveler? Why would he give a very dangerous egg to a 13-year-old? Are the two "egg" plots linked? What might this tell us about Hagrid, or perhaps Riddle, that might play a role in HBP? Ooo, and I literally just had this thought...what if it was a time traveler? -CDR From doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 10:04:46 2004 From: doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com (doddiemoemoe) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 10:04:46 -0000 Subject: "Prince" in HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106762 Angel wrote: > When everyone is guessing which boy/man the "Half Blood Prince" is > referring, my question is - how come a prince emerges? > > As far as we know, wizarding world is ruled by Ministry of Magic. > There're no king, queen, prince or princess. So what kind of prince > is this character? How should we understand the term "prince"? Should > we take it literally as a boy born to a royal family or what exactly > does it mean? I have been thinking along the exact same lines... My conclusions(or thoughts thereof--because, really, whose conclusions have ever been..well, conclusive.): 1. HBP may well be Grindewald (he who DD dfeated and is an accolade on the back of chocolate frog trading card.. What with moody's missing leg and various body parts I could well write an essay on "Why Harry's scar is in the same spot as the 'little girl who was horrid'(for those who do not know, she has a little curl in the middle of her forehead--teehee)"... a. this may well be why "Tom Riddle" in COS is simply not killing Mudbloods. He gives no explanation other than he is desires to kill Harry....all can save the geneology pool theory until they can prove Ms. Norris transfigures, or that she is something other than a kitty. (sheesh why shouldn't Tom not save us all a heptology and commit suicide there and then?!??) I suppose it would be beneficial to at least note that he was "hi-jacking" the life force of GINNY--a pure blood who, at that time, given the crush she has on Harry, has no anti-mudblood ideology in her brainpain... Since Tom Riddle is not simply ordering the Basilisk to kill only "mudbloods"(does one simply get that he wants Hogwarts closed down?) I tend to think that: b. Lucious MAY have done some handy spell work on the diary, hence he has his own agenda, not simply Voldemort's plans.(just think...Lucious is EXACTLY the type of person to let some 'other' do the "dirty" work(maybe even Harry?)..If there is one thing we can garner from Lucious and his precious son it is that the Malfoys are better because there is no other wizard line that is as "clean" as theirs.) 2. HBP may also be DD at the very least, he is a champion of half- bloods; and what "champion" have we ever denied at least an honorary title of "prince" to...(isn't it like a prince to say "all those who are loyal etc....") 3. I do not believe HBP can be Godric Griffyndor, Hela Hufflepuff, or Rowena Ravenclaw, nor Salzar Slytheryn....any past prince in their realm would have opened their OWN school(hence the establishment of Hogwarts....and if any were stronger than the others..they simply would have had their own univerisites(Beaubetans and Durmstrang......not simply their own primary and secondary schools. At this time, I simply cannot think of anyone JKR has given enough background on that may be the HBP.. However, it is such a long time until we see book six though. *heavy sigh* From doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 10:38:59 2004 From: doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com (doddiemoemoe) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 10:38:59 -0000 Subject: Polyjuiced Hermione In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106763 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jason" wrote: > Hey everyone! I was rererererereading CoS with a hilighter pen > > Why does JKR go through the extra words and pages to turn Hermione > into a cat? The boys didnt find out any information or get into any > trouble that would have benefited Hermione not being a part of. JKR does this to 1. show us how truly unique animagi are--one cannot take a potion to change into an animal.. 2. show us that the most intelligent can make a mistake at the worst of times. 3.Perhaps Millicent Bulstrode is not someone who Malfoy would speak around?!?!? 4. simply to show "how potions can go wrong" (can see a tv(or rather- 'floo')) show broadcast live from diagon alley in my mind). 5. take Hermione down a peg or two because no one around her will/can do it..(hence just because one can brew a cup of tea doesn't make one a tea leaf). Just think for a moment....what would Hermione's reaction have been if Ron had accidentally got a Toe hair from filch's slipper(knowing Ron's luck he would have transformed not into the slipper, nor filch, but some other unsavory sigle celled entity residing in Filchs slipper?(ewwww...Ron, staring as "Fuminda Cheese...tune in next week...) At the very least....if Hermione could recover from a PJ potion; then, she may well have the ability to become an animagus as we must remember the barking witch who shares her ward with Lockhart I believe. (Heaven knows it would solve the "all of them getting too big to fit under an invisibility cloak" problems if Hermione was an Animagus). sheesh...just makes one want to travel in time and place a disgusting amount of 'fumunda' cheese into the "fake Moody's" hip flask..I think the Dementors would have ran away. Dee From lorelei3dg at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 13:38:42 2004 From: lorelei3dg at yahoo.com (lorelei3dg) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 13:38:42 -0000 Subject: Percy Weasley and "Donnie Brasco" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106764 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ericoppen" wrote: > My theory is that he was > working for Dumbledore all the time, as a deep-cover mole, > like "Donnie Brasco" did infilitrating the Mafia... > > In some ways, Percy's role as Dumbledore's mole would be less > difficult than most moles. He doesn't have to adopt a new identity- > he's still Percy "Weatherby" Weasley, bright young upcoming star at > the Ministry... of all of [the Weasleys], Percy is the only one > who could pull this sort of trick off. "Redemption" for Percy! Thank you! JKR has put quite a bit of effort into portraying Percy as priggish and power-hungry, and I've been resigned to the idea that his arrogance and ambition would lead nowhere good. He's certainly the least likeable Weasley, but a Weasley nonetheless, and I hated the thought of one of them joining the DE's. However, it's not a stretch to see Percy putting that ambition and desire to enforce the law to work for DD and his Noble Cause. Your theory also fits with JKR's penchant for showing that things are not usually what they seem. Oh, I could certainly live with this kind of plot twist! Lorel From mhbobbin at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 16:11:47 2004 From: mhbobbin at yahoo.com (mhbobbin) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 16:11:47 -0000 Subject: Tonks (was Andromeda) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106765 Jen Reese wrote: (edited) It seems a little late in the game to introduce a major character like Tonks, and indirectly Andromeda, if they don't hold some key to either the past or the future. (nip) And personally, Tonks seems a bit of a red herring to me. I think her importance is to give Harry information about Metamorphagi & Aurors, and to introduce Andromeda. Tonks will continue to be involved in the plot, and will use her Metamophagus skills at some crucial moment, but she's not going to turn out to be other than she appears. Or maybe I'm way off here. :) mhbobbin writes: And speaking of Tonks--why did she transform into a Dudley-face in Chapter 5 (page 85 Scholastic edition). Perhaps that was a red herring too and we were just supposed to associate pig with Dudders. But we already knew Dudders was a pig. Coming on the heels of the Petunia mystery, it leaps off the page. I'm sure this was previously covered by long-time posters, but it as it reinforces the idea that the missing Andromeda will hold a clue to the past, it bears repeating. mhbobbin From dontask2much at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 16:21:58 2004 From: dontask2much at yahoo.com (charme) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 12:21:58 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pureblood attitudes and the word "racism" (Was: James the Berk?) References: Message-ID: <067a01c46ce3$59c75c30$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> No: HPFGUIDX 106766 Alla: > Yes, it does matter why people do things what they do. It is just in > case of Bella, I am not interested. Don't get me wrong, there were > many villains in the works of fiction I've read over time, where I > was interested to learn their motivations. It is not the case here. > > And yes, again the dreaded "emotion" comes in. Bella had a hand in > killing one of my favourite characters. There are could be many > dreadful circumstances in her life to make her what she is now, but > it does not matter to me. > > If I was defending person like Bella in court, I would make sure I > would learn all of them, to show the judge and jury how poor Bella > was just victim of the circumstances, but I can allow myself a luxury > of not doing so with the fictional character Charme: I agree, Alla, that is not necessary to know the "whys" in Bella's case: she's portrayed as adult and she makes her own decisions and she killed off a character everyone liked. A friend of mine has a saying that we all have to live with the decisions we make, and I think this is along the theme of what Dumbledore says in canon. Being that JKR is the wisdom behind DD, this is probably one of the main themes of the series she's trying to get across, as you can make (if you CHOOSE) decisions independent of your environment, experiences or other influences. Bella, like every other character, has "emotions." Those emotions preclude decisions which are not always logical nor well thought out. I also think trying to base every theory or hypotheses on the combination of canon, logic and "fact" is flawed in some fashion: as you allude in your post by your "lightheartedness (which I think you are BTW), this IS fiction and is a world which is totally imaginary. I like your posts :) Happy to respond to any at all which you make, with no hesitation. This is supposed to be for fun after all, and if fans didn't have emotions, they wouldn't be so passionate about their discussions! Charme From rebekarg at yahoo.com.br Sun Jul 18 17:16:33 2004 From: rebekarg at yahoo.com.br (=?iso-8859-1?q?Rebeka=20Gomes?=) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 14:16:33 -0300 (ART) Subject: [HPforGrownups] "I'm not proud of it" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040718171633.31652.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106767 --- ladyramkin2000 escreveu: --------------------------------- nor Lupin seem to appreciate how deeply hurt Harry is. But I was proud of Harry for snapping back "I'm fifteen!" when Lupin offered the lame excuse that James was only fifteen. >> Rebeka: Here I'd like to ask: How deeply Harry is? Because IMO, Harry just find out that what Snape has told him since the beginning is true: James is arrogant, among other things. It's Harry who idealizes his father, it's him who makes up 'James the Perfect'. I'm looking forward for Book VI and VII, and find out that Lily is not 'perfect' either (I have to say, I hate her as a character). As for Harry stating that 'he's fifteen', and acts not like his own father, well, again that's because Harry idealizes his Dad too much. Obviously, Harry never knew how James was raised, neither how James/Snape grudge truly began and why. ===== ~Rebeka From dolis5657 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 17:58:58 2004 From: dolis5657 at yahoo.com (dcgmck) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 17:58:58 -0000 Subject: The Potion Puzzle Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106768 Dave Witley's analysis of Snape's potion puzzle in the first HP (see "Files",) draws an insightful parallel between the bottles and the positions of a Quidditch team. "It is interesting to note that one bottle, the smallest, of the seven goes forward (Seeker), one goes back (Keeper), and two, including the largest, stick close to the other three (Beaters). It's harder to equate the three poison potions with Chasers." Both in terms of physical size and in terms of numbers the parallel seems increasingly significant with each published volume. Harry is physically diminutive, and he is the character whose forward progress through the series is essential. He is the one whose search for identity and purpose most fascinates us. Hermione is the keeper of Harry's growing legend. She guards his back and provides him with the background information he requires to move forward and to survive his various challenges. Initially, Hagrid and Ron could be seen to serve as Harry's "beaters", actually physically protecting him from perceived threats. Now as Harry matures, he can be seen to have two distinct organizations serving that role: the adults members of the Order of the Phoenix and his classmates in Dumbledore's Army. (The scale does seem to be escalating.) Malfoy, Goyle, and Crabbe can be seen as the initial "poisons" or chasers in that they have been trying to score off of Harry's misfortunes. Now, of course, Malfoy has a more serious score to "settle" with Harry. This is in addition to the larger scores Voldemort and the Death Eaters wish to settle with young Harry and his assorted allies. Kinda makes for a pretty cool parallel, especially since we have been told that Rowling has had the entire epic outlined from the beginning. It makes formulaic sense to place one's outline at the start of a piece. Dave Witley concludes his essay with the following thought: "Based on the four books we have to date, it's a safe bet that all seven contain an element of going forward (Harry's growth and self- discovery), an element of going back (the uncovering of hidden things from an epoch in the past), an element of death, and an element of pure entertainment." I'd like to propose that each of the seven volumes in the series will eventually be seen to correspond to one of these seven bottles and to one of the seven Quidditch positions. 1 - On the most basic level, Harry comes as a seeker to Hogwarts, becomes a seeker for his House Quidditch team, seeks out the troll and the solutions to the puzzles, and is the seeker who beats Voldemort to the stone that serves as the elusive snitch in Book I. The result is his optimistic movement forward into this new life and world he has encountered. 2 - "Chamber of Secrets" is Harry's first encounter with a variety of poisons: from the poison of discrimination against muggles to the poison of prejudice based on inadequate evidence with regard to both Lockhart and to Harry, (and, in fact, prejudice by Harry and Co. against Malfoy as killer), from the poisons of potions and plants to the poison of the basilisk's fang. 3 - "Prisoner of Azkaban" was clearly about time. We are introduced to the time turner and find that history can be changed, though we are also warned of the dangers of doing so. Will there be consequences for such actions in the future? Clearly Sirius lives for three volumes on borrowed time. Meanwhile, we learn more about Harry's family history than we have seen since his parents' death right before the series began. This text, then, seems to correspond to the back bottle. Because of the pervasive threat of the dementors, it also seems to align with chasers, as in those who pursue Harry. 4 - "Goblet of Fire" seemed to reflect more ducking and dodging than forward motion for Harry, and certainly the mainstream wizarding world took a giant step backward by the end of the book with Voldemort's return. After all, he basically ignored his lessons and indulged in a year of independent study, with all its attendant benefits and drawbacks of procrastination. Meanwhile, everyone around Harry seems to be running interference for him, friend and foe alike. This text, then, can be squeezed into the "beater" category. 5 - "Order of the Phoenix" shows everyone around Harry getting more pro-active, from Hermione to Voldemort and Dumbledore. Ron and Harry, however, are disturbingly passive in this volume. Hopefully their respective bouts with puberty will pass quickly. Meanwhile, Voldemort's aggression and Harry's passive resistance make this more of a chaser book, while the visit to St. Mungo's, Arthur Weasley's nearly fatal encounter, the death of Sirius, and what would have been the end of Harry but for Dumbledore's timely rescue put it into the poison bottle category. That leaves a chaser and a beater text each, a bottle of wine and a bottle of poison. That makes sense, since what we await are the next thrust and parry between good and evil, out of which we expect at least one more death but hope to be entertained, to be left on a positive high we can bring back with us to the real muggle world in which we must spend so much of our time. I dunno. Have you discussed this before? I'd appreciate some feedback if you've actually read this far. :-} From dolis5657 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 18:24:10 2004 From: dolis5657 at yahoo.com (dcgmck) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 18:24:10 -0000 Subject: Percy Weasley and "Donnie Brasco" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106769 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ericoppen" wrote: > Until I hear definitely (as in from Herself herself) that Percy > turned against his family for base reasons, I shall continue to stick to my own theory about his motivations. My theory is that he was working for Dumbledore all the time, as a deep-cover mole, > like "Donnie Brasco" did infilitrating the Mafia. dcgmck writes: I like this idea. One of the expectations for the next couple of books is that Percy Weasley will redeem himself. If, in fact, Dumbledore recruited him to go undercover, it could have happened during the Triwizard Tournament. Percy certainly came around enough and was still family-oriented at the time of the second task. What's more, I have trouble believing that Arthur and Molly raised Fred and George faithful to Dumbledore without having instilled similar fundamentals in Percy. > "ericoppen" wrote: > The thing about a deep-cover penetration is that you have to _live > the role_ nearly every waking minute of your life...you _become_ the sort of person you're pretending to be, while never losing sight of your ultimate, long-term goals. It's a difficult thing to do, and > most people probably couldn't carry it off. > Percy's a middle child with all-stars above him and rebels below him. That seems like a good place in a family's pecking order in which to develop both chameleon skills and ambition for recognition, a trait all the Weasleys manifest in one way or another. Percy's had practice moving unnoticed, the ideal servant. We readers tend only to see him when he's irritating us. He's kept his nose clean and his grades up at Hogwarts, hiding in his older brothers' shadows while looking to shine his own light. If anyone can keep track of what he wants and believes, it should be Percy. From meltowne at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 19:22:42 2004 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 19:22:42 -0000 Subject: Three Black sisters on a tree In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106770 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > Now I properly credit Carol for first posting that Bellatrix is 3 yrs > older than Sirius (and thus also the other Marauders, Lily and > Snape). This follows from Sirius telling Harry: "I haven't seen her > since I was your age, unless you count a glimpse of her coming into > Azkaban." Since Harry had just turned 15 at this point, it seems > Sirius was in his forth (or possibly fifth) year at Hogwarts when > Bella was in her seventh year. I take this as meaning she is AT LEAST 3 years older, but could be more. If Andromeda is 3 years older, perhaps the last time he saw Bellatrix was at the end of Andromeda's 7th year - or maybe at a family event after both had left Hogwarts (Maybe at Narcissa's wedding to L. Malfoy). At 16 he left the family, and probably no longer attended such events, but I would have expected him to have been at such an even before that. This allows Andromeda to have left Hogwarts before becoming pregnant, and allows Narcissa to be closer in age to L. Malfoy (or even the same age) From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sun Jul 18 19:23:38 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 19:23:38 -0000 Subject: "I'm not proud of it" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106771 Sylvia: > I would like to nominate this as one of the most meaningless phrases > in the English language. When Sirius uses it to Harry about the > Pensieve incident, I felt like yelling "No, you damned well shouldn't > be. What's to be proud of in behaving like an arrogant bully?" In my > experience people who use this phrase normally add a silent "But I'm > not ashamed either". "I'm not proud of it" simply isn'tsufficient > excuse. I am not convinced that Sirius really thought that he and > James were arrogant little berks. As HunterGreen points out, he is > still calling Snape by the silly nickname Snivellus and neither he > nor Lupin seem to appreciate how deeply hurt Harry is. But I was > proud of Harry for snapping back "I'm fifteen!" when Lupin offered > the lame excuse that James was only fifteen. Jen: I'm convinced Sirius realized he & James were berks, but when it comes to Snape, I don't believe Sirius is really apologetic about any of his behavior. And that makes me wonder why. Maybe it's in- character for Sirius to be that way, and we'll get no more explanation than that. Like Sylvia, I read "I'm not pround of it" as having a "but" behind it, but instead of "I'm not ashamed either", there would be a litany of Snape's transgressions. Like many people I'm curious how the whole saga of animosity between the Marauders and Snape built up to begin with, and I fully expect to see some heinous behavior on Snape's part as backstory, to understand why that silent 'but' was there. I think Sirius, for all his faults, didn't tell Harry *everything* about his grudge against Snape. Jen Reese From bptzlilchik189 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 02:51:39 2004 From: bptzlilchik189 at yahoo.com (bptzlilchik189) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 02:51:39 -0000 Subject: Will the Slytherins leave Hogwarts ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106772 Del wrote: > In OoP, the Sorting Hat's new song contains a lot of interesting > insights, but as I was reading out tonight, the one that touched me > most was this one passage : > "So Hogwarts worked in harmony > for several happy years, > but then discord crept among us > feeding on our faults and fears. > The Houses that, like pillars four, > had once held up our school, > now turned upon each other and, > divided, sought to rule. > And for a while it seemed the school > must meet an early end, > what with dueling and with fighting > and the clash of friend on friend. > And at last there came a morning > when old Slytherin departed > and though the fighting then died out > he left us quite downhearted. > And never since the founders four > were whittled down to three > have the Houses been united > as they once were meant to be. " Carolina: Hi everyone I am new in this group. This message is very interesting...everytime that I read "The Sorting Hat's New Song" in the OoP that part always made me think. Maybe in the end all of the houses might have to work together inorder to defeat LV or something else... From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 19:41:39 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 19:41:39 -0000 Subject: Oh my goodness, what book are THEY reading? In-Reply-To: <40FA9A8B.3080701@rcn.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106773 Tammy Rizzo wrote: > In the NY Times today (I subscribe to the email highlights, not the > paper itself), in the Arts section, is this article, 'Harry Potter, > Market Wiz', translated from a french article published over there > last month. (snip) > I just finished it, and I can't help but wonder, what on EARTH are > they putting in the French translations?! Or is this just one more > example of someone reading the books with a particular agenda in > mind, and thereby skewing their perceptions towards their own > pre-set bias? (snip) > well, I suppose it's not actually vitrioloc, but it burns me, it > really does. Del replies : I'm French. I left France not even 2 months ago, but I can clearly remember one of the major debates that were shaking the country then : socialism against liberalism. So when I read this article, my only feeling was : Mr Yocaris is probably a socialist, and he was shocked by some things he read in HP. Big deal. I'm sorry it burned you, but it really shouldn't. It's not a matter of having a hidden agenda or anything, it's just a matter of defending what you believe in, and denouncing what you don't like in what you see. This said, I must confess that Mr Yocaris *did* twist the facts a bit to fit his view better. Percy is not stupid, and Cedric was not weak, for example. That is a dishonest method, one that tends to make me angry, but unfortunately it's a method that's very much in use all over the world (many of us on this site have fallen in that trap one day or the other, starting with me :-). As for the facts themselves, I don't see that Mr Yocaris says anything so burning. He expresses his dislike of some values that *are* taught in the books. You probably see nothing wrong with them, because they are also your values, but they are not Mr Yocaris's, and sometimes they are not completely mine either. One thing that shocked me right away in the Potterverse for example is the emphasis put on competition. Those kids are only 11 when they arrive at Hogwarts, and yet they are right away told that *everything* they do or don't do can have repercussions not only on themselves but on their House as well. Know your lessons, you can earn your House points. Kiss someone in the robebushes on Christmas night, and you can lose your House points. I understand the concept of putting kids in competitive environments, and I see what good results it can bring, but I feel it has been pushed too far in HP. Competition is a very good thing, it's a fact of life that the kids have to learn. But putting them in a situation where they are competing 24 hours a day, always on the same team and always against the same opponents strongly upsets me. Another thing that has come to really annoy me is the general contempt against the government. The example of Percy's report on cauldron bottom thickness is a good one. Granted, Percy is being way too annoying about it ! *But* he does have a point : regulating cauldron bottom thickness is a *good and necessary* thing. I don't want my cauldron to have a leak when I'm using it for a potion. From what we've seen in Potions, it could have desastrous effects. But because writing reports is a desk job, nowhere as fancy as breaking curses (in order to obtain treasures...) or handling dragons, Percy is counted for nothing. He doesn't even have the good taste of choosing to work in an office that's original and ridiculed, like Mr Weasley. No, he goes into International Cooperation. Who needs that, really ? Considering that Mr Yocaris is a trainer in an Institute for future teachers, a *government* institution, I can understand that the constant belittling of the government in HP would grate on his nerves. Those are just 2 examples. I really understand where Mr Yocaris comes from and I would tend to share some of his grudges. Except that there are 2 main differences between he and I. 1. The whole point of writing his article was to point out what he didn't like. He wasn't there to praise the good sides of Hogwarts. He had no obligation whatsoever to put forth the other side of the coin. The general understanding is that other people will do it, and other people do indeed do it. On the other hand, I, as a simple reader, have on the contrary no reason to concentrate on only one side of the story. To do so would be to exhibit prejudice and intolerance. 2. I'm here on a mainly British and American site, discussing the work of a British author. Bringing up my French point of view to condemn JKR's work would be out-of-order. I can explain how I see things differently, but that's about it. On the other hand, Mr Yocaris wrote his article for Le Monde, a French newspaper aimed at French readers. It was a perfectly valid thing for him to do, to point out how the HP books, being British books, can go against the beliefs of a large part of the French society. They have been translated in French and marketed in France, which is in itself an authorisation for them to be criticised by French standards. In conclusion, I would say that if anyone is to blame for shocking you, Tammy, it's the New York Times. I sometimes (often) get shocked by what American and British magazines and newspapers publish, but I acknowledge that they are *not* aimed at *me*. But unfortunately it's an old game that won't stop any time soon, for editors to pick and choose articles in other countries' publications that they just *know* will shock their own readers. And of course they rarely explain the context in which those articles were written. Del From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 19:47:07 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 19:47:07 -0000 Subject: "I'm not proud of it" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106774 HunterGreen wrote : > knowing Snape when Snape was still the enemy, makes it very hard for > him to accept Snape on the Order's side. Much as if an adult Draco > joined the Order....how would Harry react to that? Del replies : Especially if Draco still disliked Harry as a person, and showed it obviously... Del From meltowne at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 19:50:32 2004 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 19:50:32 -0000 Subject: The Potion Puzzle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106775 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dcgmck" wrote: > Dave Witley's analysis of Snape's potion puzzle in the first HP > (see "Files",) draws an insightful parallel between the bottles and > the positions of a Quidditch team... > 1 - On the most basic level, Harry comes as a seeker to Hogwarts, So book one is Seeker > 2 - "Chamber of Secrets" is Harry's first encounter with a variety of poisons Making book 2 - Chaser (poisons) > 3 - "Prisoner of Azkaban" was clearly about time... This text, then, seems to correspond to the back bottle. Because of the pervasive threat of the dementors, it also seems to align with chasers, as in those who pursue Harry. Making Book 3 - Chaser (number 2) > 4 - "Goblet of Fire" seemed to reflect more ducking and dodging than forward motion for Harry... This text, then, can be squeezed into the "beater" category. 4 - Beater > 5 - "Order of the Phoenix" shows everyone around Harry getting more > pro-active, from Hermione to Voldemort and Dumbledore... the death of Sirius, and what would have been the end of Harry but for Dumbledore's timely rescue put it into the poison bottle category. 5 - Chaser (number 3) > That leaves a chaser and a beater text each, a bottle of wine and a > bottle of poison. Actually that leaves Chaser and KEEPER. Still a good theory, and the Keeper is the final line of defense. From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 19:54:11 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 19:54:11 -0000 Subject: Clarification On Terminology - Had Details In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106776 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "huntergreen_3" > wrote: > > HunterGreen: > > In this same vein, what on earth is a hag? There also obviously > > identifiable from witches, but what is the difference? I've always > > wondered that. I know its slang meaning, but it clearly has a > > different context here. > Asian_lovr2: > > First and foremost, Hags are hideously ugly and always female. > Generally, they are considered magical beings, and are sometimes > viewed as female demons. One key factor should be noted; their > preferred food, at least in fairytales, is little children. > > That's about all I've got on them. > > Steve/asian_lovr2 Asian_lovr2: I knew this had been discussed before, and I happened to stumble across it in an old post. From: Jennifer Boggess Ramon Date: Sat Jul 27, 2002 11:37 pm Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Warlock or Wizard http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/41816 ---...in part...--- In the first post, Catherine continued: >Also, what exactly is a hag? Hags are monstrous women in the folktales of England and parts of Europe. Sometimes they are the wives of trolls or giants; other times they live on their own, often in bogs or swampy wooded areas, but sometimes by the sea. They usually look ugly, old, and hunched, but are much stronger than they look. Their stories usually involve them threatening to eat children, although in the cases where they are trollwives, they sometimes let the children escape their husbands instead. They are usually, but not always, green, and they have gotten mixed up in the post-industrial mind with witches; the typical depiction of a Halloween "witch", with green skin and warts, is taken from the greenhag. They are sometimes rumored to climb onto the shoulders of sleeping men and ride them, making them gallop across fields and over hills in their sleep. The tired victim is described as "hag-rid". Hmmm . . . ;) (See http://califia.hispeed.com/Folklore/lecture10c.htm for a brief description of hag-riding.) Hags are associated with winter in Celtic folklore, although I'm not entirely sure why. This may be one reason why the hag in the Leaky Cauldron in PoA is wearing "a thick woolen balaclava," in addition to hiding her face. - - - - - - - - - - - Steve/asian_lovr2 From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 19:59:27 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 19:59:27 -0000 Subject: Re James the berk and Lily the angel In-Reply-To: <20040718084039.24362.qmail@web25301.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106777 Udderpd wrote : > From the first time I read the Snape Pensive scene I have fhought > that it was a set up. > > Snape put that particular memory in the pensive in order to > discredit James in Harry's eyes. He then had Draco call him out so > that Harry (being typical Harry) would view the memory. > > Subsequently Malfoy never once mentions remedial Potions and that in > itself is strange. Del replies : 1. Typical Harry or not, he should not have looked in that Pensieve, especially since he didn't know how to get out. I don't mind too much Harry being reckless, but I DO mind him acting stupid. 2. We are never given a reason to doubt that Montague was actually really found stuffed in a toilet at the moment Draco said. Unless you suggest that Snape found Montague first (he'd been missing for 2 weeks if I remember well), and then stuffed him himself in that toilet, before giving his instructions to Draco ? Could be, but I really doubt it. Del From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sun Jul 18 20:07:11 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:07:11 -0000 Subject: Harry & Elf Blood ( was Harry & the Fisher King) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106778 Jen said: > When does JKR's story begin? My speculation is starting to remind > me of the wounded Fisher King in the legend of the Holy Grail, > where he & his desolated country can only be healed if > an 'innocent' comes to his castle and asks the correct > question: "Whom does the Grail serve?" or "What ails thee?" > This is an interesting analogy because Harry is definitely the > innocent who arrives at the castle, but he doesn't ask questions!! > When will he ask the crucial question and what will that question > be? Valky replied: > He *has*, Jen. > Harry came to the castle with one burning question on his mind that > parrallels both: whom does the grail serve? AND what ails thee? > > "Who am I?" "Who is Harry Potter" > > Harry even answers a question about wether he is Harry or not > with "Oh him..." in PS. Jen: And also, 'whom does Harry serve'? I'm a little confused by your answer Valky, even though it struck me as an "aha" moment when I read it. Probably because I pictured Harry asking the question about someone or something else, at a pivotal moment. When you talk about 'who is Harry Potter' it makes me wonder again about his blood. And Lily's, Petunia's and Dudley's. Valky, you were in a discussion about those particular characters having Elf blood, which was very interesting (and could explain Petunia's cleaning obssesion!). Now I'm thinking the connection with Godric Gryffindor seems almost a given, a paralle to Riddle's connection with Slytherin through his mother's bloodline. I thought having Gryffindor's blood played a role in saving baby Harry, but Charme's idea of Elf blood is growing on me. So hey, maybe Godric was an Elf before they became enslaved, eh? Actually, I wonder if in the fight with Gryffindor, Slytherin didn't put a spell on GG to become an Elf, his bloodline forever enslaved until the 'innocent' born of his blood appears at the castle. Say it only affected everyone who came after Godric, and a branch of his family remained human, and is the branch Harry descended from. That branch started marrying Muggles and no one with magical powers was born until Lily. And then.....ta da, Harry the 'pure of heart' was finally born and marked as an equal to the last remaining descendant of Slytherin. Whoo, I could go on....but will see if Charme, Valky or anyone else wants to speculate with me! Jen, speculating wildly and wondering if that makes Dobby and Harry related. From eternal_riddle at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 19:43:18 2004 From: eternal_riddle at yahoo.com (Anastasia) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 19:43:18 -0000 Subject: "I'm not proud of it" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106779 > Slyvia wrote: > >> "I'm not proud of it" simply isn'tsufficient excuse. I am not > convinced that Sirius really thought that he and James were arrogant > little berks. As HunterGreen points out, he is still calling Snape by > the silly nickname Snivellus. << Anastasia: "I'm not proud of it" isn't any excuse at all. It's a statement to indicate that Sirius' emotions about his past behaviour have changed. The fact that Sirius calls himself and James "idiots" several times shows how his attitude has changed. As to calling Snape "Snivellus" - why, it's certainly not very nice. But if you recall the conversations Sirius and Snape have during OotP, you might notive that both of them behave really immature. As HunterGreen pointed out, they have a bad influence on each other. Or do you think that it's clever to call Sirius a coward for staying at home although Snape knows that Sirius hates this situation? IMO, he's saying it just beacause he knows how Sirius feels about it. >> HunterGreen: Sirius has such a warped view of James, that it doesn't occur to him how different Harry is in many ways. When Snape compares James to Harry, Sirius just doesn't see how that could be negative. Its interesting that during the floo-powder scene (just after the pensieve scene), that Lupin and Sirius start talking about James in affectionate terms when Harry is clearly very upset. Anastasia: If Ginny was compared to Mrs Weasley, I would think more about her caring for others than her habitude of shouting if there's anything wrong. When you love somebody you see his best sides, not his worst. Especially if this person has died several years ago. Therefore, it is only natural that Sirius and Lupin talk affectionately about James, most of us would wonder if they didn't. They were like brothers! Additionally, we don't know how much James has changed after that Pensieve scene. After all, it was enough to become Head Boy. Could you imagine Lily dating James if he hadn't changed? > >> Rebeka: > I'm looking forward for Book VI and VII, and find out > that Lily is not 'perfect' either (I have to say, I > hate her as a character). Anastasia: Well, it's someway strange to hate somebody you haven't heard anything about except that she 1) gave her life to protect Harry and 2) was the only one who tried to stop James and Sirius from hexing Snape all the time. Anastasia From mz_annethrope at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 07:25:42 2004 From: mz_annethrope at yahoo.com (mz_annethrope) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 07:25:42 -0000 Subject: (A Challenge!) Weasley names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106780 "antoshachekhonte" wrote: > Regarding Percival, there are several sources for this knight in > the various Grail romances. > > The other major source is Wolfram von Eschenbach's Parzival. > Parzival's quest, and his talent, is to transcend the dualistic world > of opposites. His name, in this respect, has occasionally been glossed > as 'perce-val'--'pierce the valley'. That is take what Buddhists would > call the Middle Way, which regards good and evil, black and white, male > and female, as being of secondary importance. > > Which in fact seems to be quite the opposite of the character of > Percy Weasley... ms_annethrope here: Ah clarity. What I was trying to say is that the name Percy is etymologically unrelated to the names Percival (a surname), Parzival, or, Lord have mercy, Richard Wagner's Aryan proto-type, Parsifal. But the surname Percy is the name of the earls and later dukes of Northumberland, of which Harry Hotspur was a scion. ms_annethrope From srae1971 at bellsouth.net Sun Jul 18 19:36:04 2004 From: srae1971 at bellsouth.net (Shannon) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 15:36:04 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Percy...was Ron's "poor me" syndrome. In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.1.6.1.20040717012420.00cb8af0@mail.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.1.20040718133521.00ca1968@mail.bellsouth.net> No: HPFGUIDX 106781 Del says: >Don't start me on Percy again :-) ! Shannon replies: Ruh roh! :-) >Del replies : >He turned against them when they withdrew that support and praise. >It's just as childish as Harry stopping to like Cedric just because he >invited Cho to the Yule Ball. Many people remain childish way into >their adulthood where their pride is concerned, it's really not unusual. Shannon replies: Well, I certainly won't argue that Harry isn't childish. I was ready to throttle him throughout most of OotP. Moody teenage boys drive me bananas. But I don't really see it as the same kind of situation. Harry liked Cho, Cho liked Cedric. Harry barely knew Cedric. It's not as though he suddenly disliked a lifelong friend just over Cho Chang. Harry's reaction in that situation seemed a lot more natural than Percy's reaction to the situation with his father. Well, not more natural, because I do see and understand why Percy would be very hurt and angry about it. But Percy, in one fell swoop, rejected an entire lifetime's worth of support, praise, and love on the basis of one incident in which his father questioned, not Percy's abilities, but the Fudge's motives. His reaction seems all out of proportion to the crime, and it also speaks of a long-simmering resentment of his family's situation, the blame for which he places squarely on his father's shoulders (along with whatever difficulties he's had at work). Granted, it was Ron relaying the argument to Harry, so we don't really know both sides of it. Even so, I doubt very much that Ron's version wasn't accurate, for as much as he told. >Del says : >Percy never actually knew Harry. Harry couldn't be less concerned >about knowing the first-years personally in OoP, and that's the same >age gap between he and Percy. True, but it's hardly the same as Harry and the first years he was expected to be looking after in OotP. I mean, Harry is his little brother's best friend. He spends significant portions of time living with the Weasleys every summer. He is practically a member of the family himself. No, Percy doesn't know Harry the way Ron does, or even the way Fred, George and Ginny do, but it's not as though he was some random first year that Percy had to keep in line. >Del says : >And we just don't *know* what Percy knows about Harry. How much was he >told about the CoS, we simply don't know. Molly and Arthur might have >kept it all secret. Ok, I'll concede that point. :) Percy might not know anything. Even so, having lived with Harry, you'd think he at least knows him enough to be able to make an independent personal assessment of whether he is unbalanced as the Ministry accuses. >Del says : >Only one year, yes, but a year in which he invested himself *very* >heavily in his work. The Ministry became his second family so to speak. A family that can't remember that his name is Weasley, not Weatherby! :) I think that Percy's reaction is due mostly to the fact that deep down he knows his father was right. He knows, even if he blusters and makes himself look important to his family, that Crouch never depended on him like he pretended. Percy isn't stupid enough to think that after an inquiry, being in all kinds of trouble at work, and being an assistant to a man who barely knew he was there, he'd be promoted to assistant to the Minister. It's just not logical, and Percy's too smart not to have figured that out, even if he doesn't want to admit it. Weasley Pride, that's what that is. He's being willfully blind. >Del says : >Well yes, he almost died. But by the time Percy learned that, he also >learned that his father was *not* going to die after all. He did *not* >go through the anxiety that the younger Weasleys experienced, not >knowing whether their father was going to live or die. Percy knew >right away that Arthur would live. It makes a big difference. Do we actually know how quickly Percy was alerted? Obviously he wouldn't have known as quickly as the other Weasley children but Arthur's fate was uncertain for several hours, through an entire night. Molly didn't come to Grimmauld Place and tell the others he'd be ok until 5 in the morning. I reread that part of the book and couldn't find any indication of when Percy was told. And even if he didn't find out until later, George later says that he's never so much as asked after him. Regardless of how angry Percy is, I can't understand that. The thing about all this is, I see no way for Percy to get out of it gracefully. Now that the Ministry has acknowledged Voldemort's return, he has two choices. He can either admit that Harry & Co were right all along and he was wrong (in which case my opinion of him will raise considerably), or he can continue to insist that they couldn't have known at the time, and he had been right to cast his lot with Fudge and the Ministry and be disbelieving. In the first case even if Arthur lets it go (we know Molly will as she's tried to make peace and been cruelly rejected more than once already), I doubt very much Ron and Fred and George, even Ginny perhaps, will do so as easily. Not to mention Harry. I don't even know that Arthur will. Weasley Pride, again. In the second, things will probably only get worse. Either way, it's not going to be pretty, and the rift will not be healed easily. I do, however, think Percy will redeem himself in some way. I have a suspicion that it will be some grand gesture, possibly costing him his life. There are simply too many Weasleys for them all to make it through this alive, I can't help but think one or two of them will die before it's over. (I refuse to entertain the notion that Ron will be one of the unlucky ones. Refuse! :) ) Shannon [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Notyourpoet at breakbeat.com Sun Jul 18 08:56:00 2004 From: Notyourpoet at breakbeat.com (troublenbass) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 08:56:00 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Hermione's Reaction to... Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss In-Reply-To: <20040717181907.48044.qmail@web50807.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106782 Uddrepd: > > Agreed but at least Harry has had some Ron has had none. In my > > honest opinion Ron and Luna will make a fine couple. Peter wrote: > Why do you think this? In OOTP there is some clues to suggest that > Luna fancies Ron, but I don't see how Ron would relate to a girl > who, while very sweet, is a bit flaky. Anything other than R and H is impossible at this point - the hint in PoA the movie, and the comment JKR made on her website dispells any doubts about who Ron is going to end up with. "troublenbass" From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 20:25:51 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:25:51 -0000 Subject: Pureblood attitudes and the word "racism" (Was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: <067a01c46ce3$59c75c30$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106783 Charme wrote: > I agree, Alla, that is not necessary to know the "whys" in Bella's > case: she's portrayed as adult and she makes her own decisions and > she killed off a character everyone liked. Del replies : You might think so, but not everyone has to agree. Not that I like Bella and really care about why she does what she does, but I disagree with a general statement that we don't need to know. I also disagree with a general statement that everyone liked Sirius. I loved him in PoA, I liked him OK in GoF, and I strongly disliked him in OoP. I for one am *not* sorry he's gone. I'm sorry for a lot of things, starting with Harry who didn't deserve to be put through that pain, and also for the fact that Sirius never got a real chance at a real life, but I'm *not* sorry he's gone : he was too much of a liability, and he was turning into a dangerously bad example for Harry. I won't go thanking Bellatrix for killing him though. Charme wrote : > A friend of mine has a saying that we all have to live with the > decisions we make, and I think this is along the theme of what > Dumbledore says in canon. Being that JKR is the wisdom behind DD, > this is probably one of the main themes of the series she's trying > to get across, as you can make (if you CHOOSE) decisions independent > of your environment, experiences or other influences. Bella, like > every other character, has "emotions." Those emotions preclude > decisions which are not always logical nor well thought out. Del replies : But DD's choices contradict his words. He says we can make the right choice no matter what, and *at the exact same time* he makes the wrong decision *because* of his feelings for Harry. In the very same discussion at the end of PS/SS, he emphasizes the importance of choosing AND he makes the wrong decision of not telling Harry the whole truth because he loves the boy. I say : actions speak louder than words. JKR is showing us that *nobody* can escape their emotions. Even someone as old and wise and experienced as DD *repeatedly* (year after year for 4 years) made the very same wrong decision because of his emotions. It tells a lot indeed. Charme wrote : > I also think trying to base every theory orhypotheses on the > combination of canon, logic and "fact" is flawed in some fashion: as > you allude in your post by your "lightheartedness (which I think > you are BTW), this IS fiction and is a world which is totally > imaginary. Del replies : Just because you think we shouldn't think of the Potterverse as a mirror of real life doesn't mean others can't do just that. I have several ways of looking at the HP books, and the most serious one does indeed include making hypotheses based on a combination of canon, logic and fact. You on the other hand are totally entitled to counter my logic with a statement that you see the Potterverse as exclusively fantastic. We would both be right. Charme wrote : > This is supposed to be for fun after all, and if fans didn't > have emotions, they wouldn't be so passionate about their > discussions! Del replies : Not all emotions are fun ! In fact, if it were just for the fun, I don't think there would be hardly *any* passionate discussions on this list ! Lots of joke and silliness, but hardly any serious debate. Note : silliness and seriousness are both good, I have no preference. But this group *does* seem to have a general preference for seriousness : most posts are serious and when anyone sometimes make silly posts, they rarely get answered. Del From Notyourpoet at breakbeat.com Sun Jul 18 08:58:17 2004 From: Notyourpoet at breakbeat.com (troublenbass) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 08:58:17 -0000 Subject: We've been going in the wrong direction... In-Reply-To: <20040717161539.13232.qmail@web90007.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106784 David wrote: > Since L.V. lists his faithful death eaters, dementors, and > banished giants and seems to refer to them collectively as > "all my devoted servants returned to me", then says "and an > army of creatures whom all fear..." I think it's possible > that the "Half Blood Prince" is the leader of a new foul army > of creatures we have not been introduced to yet. Haven't thought about that, but it seems entirely plausible. I still like the long lost relative idea though. WHERE ARE HARRY'S GRANDPARENTS!? "troublenbass" From aboutthe1910s at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 16:05:07 2004 From: aboutthe1910s at yahoo.com (aboutthe1910s) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 16:05:07 -0000 Subject: Oh my goodness, what book are THEY reading? In-Reply-To: <40FA9A8B.3080701@rcn.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106785 Tammy Rizzo: snip> http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/18/opinion/18YOCA.html?th > > I just finished it, and I can't help but wonder, what on EARTH are they > putting in the French translations?! Or is this just one more example > of someone reading the books with a particular agenda in mind, and > thereby skewing their perceptions towards their own pre-set bias? I think the latter is the answer, because I just started reading the books in French in an attept to improve my appallingly atrocious vocabulary, and while I haven't gotten very far because my mild tendency toward obsessive compulsiveness will not allow me to guess from context any unfamiliar words, but forces me to look each one up (which is like every tenth word), but, anyway, my point is that they stick *very* closely to the original English. Also, I've heard some of this same bologna regarding teh orginal English as well, though I never bothered to read more thoroughly than a brief skim as I just didn't find it all that terribly gripping. aboutthe1910s From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sun Jul 18 20:33:31 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:33:31 -0000 Subject: We've been going in the wrong direction... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106786 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "troublenbass" wrote: > > > Haven't thought about that, but it seems entirely plausible. I still > like the long lost relative idea though. WHERE ARE HARRY'S > GRANDPARENTS!? > > "troublenbass" Dead, I think. According to JKR, they're not important or significant though we will learn a little bit about them in one of the future books. Kneasy From cyclone_61032 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 09:02:37 2004 From: cyclone_61032 at yahoo.com (David & Laura) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 09:02:37 -0000 Subject: Vanquishing Voldemort (Nick) / Fate worse than death In-Reply-To: <20040718085052.27260.qmail@webmail8.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106787 Amey: > Dumbledore mentions *destroying a man*, there are really many ways. > > > Amey, who thinks life without recognition is worst than death David: A fate worse than death I believe is individual. In V-man's case we have a power hungry maniac. He's developed his powers through study and hard work for years. IMHO, a fate worse than death for him would be to lose his powers....a squib like Filch. From Notyourpoet at breakbeat.com Sun Jul 18 09:06:58 2004 From: Notyourpoet at breakbeat.com (troublenbass) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 09:06:58 -0000 Subject: Patronus at DADA OWL (was Re: Harry's Future...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106788 Asian_lovr2: > > I really wanted Harry leap to his feet and say, "Yeh, I can > > but I'm not the only one. Hey, Ernie; show them your Patronus!" > > Then proceed to have every available member of the DA cast a > > Patronus just to rub Umbridge's nose in it. JK didn't show us other people's tests as well though.. "troublenbass" From melclaros at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 20:49:52 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:49:52 -0000 Subject: We've been going in the wrong direction... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106789 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" <> > > > troublenbass wrote: Haven't thought about that, but it seems entirely plausible. I still > > like the long lost relative idea though. WHERE ARE HARRY'S > > GRANDPARENTS!? Kneasy wrote: > Dead, I think. > According to JKR, they're not important or significant though we > will learn a little bit about them in one of the future books. Mel adds: Dead, very definitely. Even if JKR hadn't said that flat out, wouldn't this (like the Mark Evans question) fall into the "How many times do I have to tell you?" category? The Dursleys are Harry's Only Living Blood Relatives. That's canon. The only way JKR is going to be able to change that at this late date will be to turn everything over so badly that everything *else* is likely to lose credibility. Melpomene From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sun Jul 18 20:56:03 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:56:03 -0000 Subject: Oh my goodness, what book are THEY reading? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106790 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > > Del replies : > I'm French. I left France not even 2 months ago, but I can clearly > remember one of the major debates that were shaking the country then : > socialism against liberalism. So when I read this article, my only > feeling was : Mr Yocaris is probably a socialist, and he was shocked > by some things he read in HP. Big deal. > > I'm sorry it burned you, but it really shouldn't. It's not a matter of > having a hidden agenda or anything, it's just a matter of defending > what you believe in, and denouncing what you don't like in what you see. > > snip> No need for apologies, Del. Anything written by an academic is not really intended for public consumption (though of course they love publicity if it happens). I suspect that this is aimed at other academics to show his impeccable political credentials and to (hopefully) indirectly promote French belle artes (we are much too serious to write this facile stuff...). This from a so-called elite that leapt with cries of joy onto the sterilities of deconstructionism. With a bit of luck there'll be a response from fellow academics vehemently disagreeing with him. The learned journals will fill with articles vying with each other in pouring scorn and contempt on all that deny the obvious truth of that particular contributor's view. Bit like this board, actually. Academia is a pit full of rabid rats squalling and squabbling and only one opinion matters - their own. And none of 'em have ever written a word worth reading. Kneasy From melclaros at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 20:58:00 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:58:00 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius lure Severus into the Willow? (was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106791 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "huntergreen_3" > HunterGreen: > Well, that's why I said 'unwritten'. Lockhart was turned to help save > Ginny in CoS (to which he does indeed complain that it wasn't in the > job description, but it was expected of him anyway). Mel: It most certianly was NOT expected of him. If he'd been halfway competent it would have been, surely, but what actually happened there was the Snape-McGonnogal tag team approach of simply getting him the hell out of everyone's way. It was only Harry and Ron (duh) who honestly (?) expected Lockhart to help. Hunter: > all the teachers were called upon to help get the troll out of the > school. In PoA, Dumbledore calls upon the teachers to search the > school for Sirius. (and Sirius himself later tells Harry 'it was > brave of you not to run for a teacher...' in the shrieking shack). It is *always* any teacher's job to assure or at least help in the assurance of student safety. That is what you saw in the troll episode and the situation with searching the school for Sirius Black. There isn't a school I know of (and based on canon, Hogwarts is no exception) that would allow teachers to sit back and do nothing while students were threatened in any way, whether it be some disaster, say fire in the dorms, or an intruder on campus and the like. The fact that Snape is Head of House only ADDS to his responsibility. It's Him who gets the owls if little Jemima Slytherin gets injured. He's also seen to be something of Dumbledore's left-hand man--again a large responsibility. Melpomene From melclaros at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 21:03:31 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:03:31 -0000 Subject: "I'm not proud of it" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106792 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ladyramkin2000" wrote: > I would like to nominate this as one of the most meaningless phrases > in the English language. Mel: I'll second that nomination. I will say that In Real Life, I've only ever heard it used (or used it myself) in a joking manner, as in: "I'm a soy-mocha-latte fan, ok? I'm not proud of it." The idea that we're supposed to take Black's comment as an honest one makes the speaker look worse than ever. Which saying something considering this particular speaker. Melpomene From melclaros at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 21:05:56 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:05:56 -0000 Subject: "I'm not proud of it" In-Reply-To: <20040718171633.31652.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106793 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rebeka Gomes wrote: > --- ladyramkin2000 > escreveu: > --------------------------------- > > nor Lupin seem to appreciate how deeply hurt Harry is. > But I was > proud of Harry for snapping back "I'm fifteen!" when > Lupin offered > the lame excuse that James was only fifteen. Mel: That was one of my few, "Yay, Harry!!!" moments during that entire book. You'd THINK the two 'grownups' would have given some serious thought to their actions and attitude towards them after being admonished that way by a fifteen year old, but alas, it did not happen. Mel From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 21:12:56 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:12:56 -0000 Subject: Slytherin ambition revisited. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106794 snip. > Alla wrote previously: > > You could be right. I think it is very possible that Rowling will do > > away all the Houses at the end of the book, or Slytherins will be > > choosen based on their cunning and ambition, not on whether they > > are "pure-bloods" > > Del replies : > But even cunning and ambition seem to be regarded as negative traits. > All the other Houses favour character traits that are positive without > ambiguity (courage, intelligence, hard work and loyalty), but > Slytherin favours a quality that is most of the time described as > negative : ambition. Just look at how people dislike Percy because > he's ambitious, how they often conclude that's he's going to end up > evil just because of his ambition. > Alla: Well, certainly not me. I see nothing bad with the ambition per se. As long as person, who strives to achieve his/her goal, doing it without hurting people around, I will admire such person. I am an ambitious person myself. If Sorting Hat will choose new Slyhts based on only how cunning and ambitious they are, I would like that very much. And case of Percy is certainly on point - I don't dislike him because he is ambitious, I dislike him because he turned his back on his family and moreover, I am afraid that he will betray someone from the Order to Voldemort. By the way, Percy is one of the characters, whose motivations I am most definitely curious to learn about. He is written as potentially complex character. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 21:21:38 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:21:38 -0000 Subject: Pureblood attitudes and the word "racism" (Was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: <067a01c46ce3$59c75c30$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106795 > Charme wrote: > > I agree, Alla, that is not necessary to know the "whys" in Bella's case: > she's portrayed as adult and she makes her own decisions and she killed off > a character everyone liked. snip. Alla: Thanks for the support. :o) Please, don't get me wrong, I am most definitely interested in how Bella fits in the narrative, which JKR weaves. I want to know more about Black family. I hope that Andromeda and Regilus are still alive and want to meet them, etc. What I am NOT interested in is learning the circumstances, which could supposedly make me justify Bella, feel pity for her, etc. To me - she is a one - note crasy villainous character. There could a sobbing story behind her becoming a DE, but as I said earlier, I just don't care. To me, at that point of the narrative, she already crossed the line. There can be nothing, which can make me change my opinion about her. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 21:31:29 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:31:29 -0000 Subject: Sirius Luring Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106796 > > Alla wrote previously: > > > > Yes, I know that everyone is distantly related, but I am thinking > more about direct relatives. There was something that Harry did > not pay attention to on that tapestry, right? Another surprise for > us?< > > Pippin replied: > Could be. I just don't think that a major plot point is going to > hinge on long lost relatives. Too Star Wars. Alla: I don't think I agree . Snape and Sirius are not main protagonists. I don't think them being closely related will influence major plot point , just helps to explain their animosity. (Voldemort as Harry's father on the other hand :o)) Consider the infamous: "Snape knew more curses when he arrived at school than half of the kids in seventh year..." GoF, paperback, p.531 I think it is a reasonable assumption that Sirius knew Snape before school. Of course, you can also argue that Snape was the object of deep fascination for Sirius the moment he arrived at school. :o) > Pippin: > I've thought of that...trouble is, the chronology doesn't fit. If the > prank happened in sixth year, then James hadn't started going > out with Lily yet. On the other hand maybe that's the point. It > would be very funny and a typical JKR twist if Snape-as-James > was somehow responsible for Lily's change of heart. Maybe... Alla: LOL! You never know. > From cyclone_61032 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 09:32:06 2004 From: cyclone_61032 at yahoo.com (David & Laura) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 09:32:06 -0000 Subject: TR "possessed" by Voldemort? (was Re: Dumbledore knows) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106797 Snow..I clipped some of your e-mail to save space...David "snow15145" wrote: > COS chap. The Heir of Slytherin pg. 313: "Voldemort," said Riddle > softly, "is my past, present, and future, Harry Potter " This > statement, IMO, leads me to believe that Voldemort is a separate > entity from Riddle. "Voldemort" said Riddle " They are as one but > not one in the same. This entity, Voldemort, Dark Lord, Dark Wizard, > Grindlewald, may be Salizar Slytherin who has possessed many over > his life span of the undead. > > SS pg. 298 "He is still out there somewhere, perhaps looking for > another body to share not being truly alive, he cannot be killed " > To vanquish just the shell of the person who has been possessed by > this entity will not vanquish the entity itself. Quirrell was killed > and yet the beast within lived on until it reappeared in another's > form. SS chap. The Man with Two Faces pg. 293 "See what I have become?" > the face said. "Mere shadow and vapor I have form only when I can > share another's body but there have always been those willing to let > me into their hearts and minds " Those? Must have happened many times > before. David: I've heard this theory before, that Riddle is some nice kid that was was possessed by evil V-man. Help me out here, as I've seen no canon for this. V-man clearly states in CoS that he changed his name out of hatred for his muggle father. He so resents his mother dying, his father abandoning him, and the orphanage up-bringing that he throws off all connection by changing his name. Changing his name to something all will fear and respect...Voldemort. He then dedicated his life to the study of the magic and the dark arts for one purpose. Namely, to gain the respect, power, and control he seems to desperately need. Again in GoF as he's 'reborn', he has no problem pointing out to Harry the grave of his father. He doesn't speak in the third person, as if the Tom Riddle life was someone else's. He speaks as if he's deliberately thumbing his nose at his past. Thus, I don't see the possession angle. Unfortunately, we have a psycho who's so screwed up mentally over his childhood (how many of these in real society have we seen...everyone nutcase?) that the creation of V-man is the result. David From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 21:20:15 2004 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 14:20:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "I'm not proud of it" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040718212016.16922.qmail@web50103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106798 I think we have to remember the context in which this three-way conversation between Harry-Sirius-Remus is taking place. Out of a blue sky, Harry has thrown at them an incident that shows his father in a bad light. Sirius and Remus are not dispassionately debating the rights and wrongs of the incident; they're primarily concerned with preserving Harry's image of James, and secondarily, his image of them. So they're watching him carefully to see how he reacts to their explanations, pulling back when he gets angry, reinforcing the overall message that his father was a good person and using whatever comes to mind to manage Harry's disappointment. On SugarQuill this very issue came up recently and someone posted that she wondered if Sirius would have said he wasn't proud if Harry had said "I can't believe what you guys did to Snape! Man, that was great!!!!" She thought - and I completely agree - that Sirius would not have said it. Magda - away for a couple of years but back now because there can never be too many Snapeologists in life __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/ From R.Vink2 at chello.nl Sun Jul 18 21:39:05 2004 From: R.Vink2 at chello.nl (Renee) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:39:05 -0000 Subject: "I'm not proud of it" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106799 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "huntergreen_3" wrote: > Slyvia wrote: > >> "I'm not proud of it" simply isn'tsufficient excuse. I am not > convinced that Sirius really thought that he and James were arrogant > little berks. As HunterGreen points out, he is still calling Snape by > the silly nickname Snivellus and neither he nor Lupin seem to > appreciate how deeply hurt Harry is. << > > HunterGreen: > They really don't, do they? Sirius has such a warped view of James, > that it doesn't occur to him how different Harry is in many ways. > When Snape compares James to Harry, Sirius just doesn't see how that > could be negative. Whereas the moment he sees what James was really > like, Harry sees it as negative immediately. In fact it *disturbs* > him. Its interesting that during the floo-powder scene (just after > the pensieve scene), that Lupin and Sirius start talking about James > in affectionate terms when Harry is clearly very upset. > Renee: Yes, Harry's hurt and upset, and maybe Sirius and Lupin don't really appreciate this. Or then again, maybe they do but just don't react the way some readers would have. A few remarks. 1)Please don't shoot me if I bring up a personal memory; it's not OT. Once upon a time I read someone else's diary without asking permission and found something unpleasant concering my mother. When I complained about this to a third party all he said was: 'If you hadn't violated the owner's privacy in the first place, you wouldn't be complaining now.' Much to my chagrin, I was forced to admit he had a point. But mark that neither Sirius nor Lupin engage in blaming Harry or pointing out he's being punished for his own fault. They see the problem: that his image of his father as a knight without reproach has been badly damaged, and that this hurts. So they decide to make an attempt to control the damage and repair the image as much as possible. I don't see what's intrinsically wrong about their reaction. It's not ideal, no. They could have said in so many words that what James did was abominable, but this *is* implied in Lupin's first words and Sirius admission they were all idiots. Should they have said: 'Poor Harry, yes we can see you're suffering, of course your father was an *rsehole, and no, we don't understand at all why your mother married him?' 2)Lupin: 'He was only fifteen -' Harry: 'I'm fifteen!' What does he mean to say - I'm fifteen, and if I know better, why couldn't my father? Isn't that a little self-righteous, after he's invaded Snape's privacy? (NB: I don't believe in the theory that Snape left the Pensieve unguarded on purpose.) But Sirius and Lupin don't call him on it. They come up with the - admittedly lame - explanation that Snape was an oddbal and James was so cool etc., but all the same they are still trying to put the incident into perspective. 3)"'I'm not proud of it,' said Sirius quickly." Why quickly? My interpretation: because Harry seems to be apologising for including Sirius in his criticism, and Sirius doesn't want him to, knowing he was no better than James: 'We were sometimes arrogant little berks'. Sirius actually echoes Snape here, who also repeatedly calls James arrogant. Compare this to his behaviour in the Shrieking Shack scene in PoA. There, he isn't sorry at all for sending Snape straight at a raging werewolf - 'Served him right.' Maybe the excuse in OotP isn't entirely sufficient, but compared to no excuse at all it is a significant improvement. 4)Lupin and Sirius fondly reminiscing. The weakest part in their reaction, but only to comprehensible to me - we've got two damaged men here, who are reminded of the only happy period in their lives. If Harry fails to understand this, it's because he's too young, and still struggling to put the incident into perspective. Which brings me to 5)The outcome of this conversation. My impression is that Sirius's and Lupin's attempt at damage control succeeded fairly well. Harry seems to - reluctantly - accept their reaction. He doesn't dwell too much on his fathers shortcomings in the rest of OotP, nor does the affair keep him awake. Renee From strawberry at jamm.com Sun Jul 18 21:48:17 2004 From: strawberry at jamm.com (Jenni A.M. Merrifield) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:48:17 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat doesn't sort /WAS The sorting hat seems to think Harry... In-Reply-To: <001f01c468bc$6e6fd660$a7c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106800 "happybean98 wrote : Also, Harry was an exceptional case because the Dursley's should have told him about Hogwarts, and the WW, but they chose not to. Hermione was muggle born, but she figured out the house system by reading "Hogwarts a History". Del replies : Actually *Hermione* is the exception here. She was probably the only one who read that book. I'm pretty sure none, or very very few, of the other Muggle-born students knew about the different Houses." Cathy says : I think you're right, Del, that most of the other Muggle-borns would know nothing of the different houses before they reached the school, or at least the train. In the PS6, Hermione says: "Do either of you know what house you'll be in? I've been asking around and I hope I'm in Gryffindor, it sounds by far the best, I hear Dumbledore himself was one..." She, for once, never mentioned Hogwarts, A History, but that she had just been 'asking around.' I'm sure she would have read about the different houses in the book, and perhaps the different qualities/abilites each house was looking for (maybe or may not be in the book), but her 'asking around' made her want to go to Gryffindor. Jenni adds : You know, I'm beginning to think this theory, about the sorting hat not really "sorting" and just taking what's in the first year's mind instead, has quite a lot of merit. At the very least, what canon we have doesn't contradict this particular view. Consider the following (sorry, books aren't on hand, so I can't provide specific evidence): 1. In PS/SS Harry makes it very clear he doesn't want to be in Slytherin but doesn't specifically request another house. When finally "sorted" the hat says something like, "Well, if you're sure ... better be ... Gryffindor!" Harry knows very little about the different houses -- even less than Hermione, who did at least ask around. The only reason he was adamantly opposed to Slytherin was because (a) Draco was sorted into it and (b) he has been told that Slythrin breeds bad wizards. The only other house he's heard of, prior to the hat's song, is Gryffindor and Ron, the only person he's made friends with, expects to be sorted there so even though he may not be too keen on Hermione, her being sorted there isn't enough deterrent to overrule the thought that he'd like to be in the same house as his new friend. 2. In PS/SS, Draco was sorted into Slytherin almost before the hat touched his head. No doubt it was the only house he ever considered, given his father's nature and his own upbringing. Being so assured of where he was going, his mind would have radiated his choice and his lack of hesitancy about it. 3. In PS/SS Neville took a long time to sort and I think that in another book (OoP probably), he admits that he argued with the hat against putting him in Gryffindor as he felt he "didn't deserve it". It wouldn't surprise me at all if the first year Neville secretly wished to be a Gryffindor but was too insecure to believe he could possibly "qualify". Then, when the hat saw that deep desire it probably said, "Hufflepuff, hm? Maybe... but what about Gryffindor?". This caused Neville to argue against that suggestion, which in turn only proved that he really did have courage -- after all, how many people are willing to argue for 10 minutes or more with an ancient magical artifact? 4. In PS/SS Ron Weasley expected to be sorted into Gryffindor like all his brothers, and was. I think it took a bit longer with Ron than with Draco for Slytherin only because Ron had *three* thoughts to work through (a) fear that he might *not* be sorted into the "family house", (b) secret desire to move out of the shadow of his five brothers, and (c) a desire to join *his* new friend, Harry Potter. So the hat needed to verify what Ron * really* cared about more. 5. In OoP (I think), Hermione admits to being considered for Ravenclaw but ended up in Gryffindor. We know from the comment quoted above by Cathy that she *wanted* to be sorted into Gryffindor but as she was already an academic type it is not difficult to see her mentally warring with herself over wanting to join the house she percieved to be "by for the best" versus the house that had been identified as the "smart house". 6. Padma and Patel Pavarti, sorted into separate houses. Someone already suggested that this could hare been a desire of one or both of them. 7. Colin Creevey is sorted into Gryffindor Who does Colin worship? Harry. What house was Harry in? Gryffindor. What was Collin probably thinking when it was his turn to be sorted? To be in the same house as his idol! Anyway, I'm sure I could find more examples, but that should do for now. Unfortunately none of these things *prove* the theory, but then it is generally impossible to "prove" theories -- all you can do is try to *disprove* it. On that note - can anyone find an example where someone was sorted into a house that they did *not* want to be in and/or hadn't even considered? Jenni From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 21:58:53 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:58:53 -0000 Subject: Percy... In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.1.20040718133521.00ca1968@mail.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106801 Shannon wrote : > Percy, in one fell swoop, rejected an entire lifetime's worth of > support, praise, and love on the basis of one incident in which his > father questioned, not Percy's abilities, but the Fudge's motives. Del replies : Percy did *not* reject his family. In his mind, as he tells Ron in his letter, it's only a matter of waiting until his parents realise their mistake. He did not reject his family forever, he only "grounded" them until they realise their "fault". And Arthur did indeed question Percy's abilities, at least in Percy's mind. Telling a young ambitious capable man that he only got a promotion because his boss has a hidden agenda *is* insulting his abilities IMO. Shannon wrote : > His reaction seems all out of proportion to the crime, and it also > speaks of a long-simmering resentment of his family's situation, the > blame for which he places squarely on his father's shoulders (along > with whatever difficulties he's had at work). Del replies : Percy only lashed out at his father because he was angry and frustrated. Harry told his friends some unpleasant things out of anger and frustration too. Percy is not the only Weasley kid we see having problems with being poor : Ron is a very obvious example, but the Twins are quite obvious too. And technically it *is* Arthur's fault if they are so poor : he seems to be the only provider (we don't hear of Molly working outside the home, except for the Order), and it is public knowledge that he was professionally held back because of his open antagonism with the "people that count" in the Ministry. It does tell a lot about Arthur's honesty, sure, but it also tells a lot about his inability to navigate the Ministry. The Ministry is the government, by *definition* politics rule it. If Arthur couldn't accept the rules of politics and thus better meet the growing needs of his family, maybe he should have looked for another job. That's what anyone who gets stucked in their job in RL would be encouraged to do, *especially* when they have such a big family to provide for. Shannon wrote : > Harry is his little brother's best friend. He spends significant > portions of time living with the Weasleys every summer. He is > practically a member of the family himself. No, Percy doesn't know > Harry the way Ron does, or even the way Fred, George and Ginny do, > but it's not as though he was some random first year that Percy had > to keep in line. Del replies : As you said, Harry is Percy's little brother's best friend. My little sister is 4 1/2 years younger than I am : I knew her best friends by name and face, but that's about it. My mom actually discovered that my sister's best friend at one time had been abusing her for quite a while, but it took her quite some time and the help of other people. That friend was apparently a very nice girl, she was very well-behaved and everything, and yet she was unbalanced. Harry does *not* spend significant amount of time at the Weasleys (not even a half-dozen weeks in total throughout the first four books) and each time Percy interacts very little with him. In CoS he spends all his time shut up in his room writing to Penelope, and in GoF he's immersed himself up to his neck in his job. And just look at the way Harry interacts with Ginny, who is only one year younger than he is : she's Ron's little sister, but he couldn't care less about trying to know her. In OoP, she's much more present because *she* imposes herself on Harry, but Harry *still* considers her as the little 10-year-old girl he first saw at King's Cross. Why should Percy act any different with his baby brother's friends ? Shannon wrote : > having lived with Harry, you'd think he at least knows him enough to > be able to make an independent personal assessment of whether he is > unbalanced as the Ministry accuses. Del replies : Percy has barely seen Harry for a year when the row with Arthur occurs. People can change a lot in a year : Harry might have been allright a year ago, and unbalanced now. Moreover, there's the whole Tournament matter : for all Percy knows during the entire year, Harry hoodwinked the Goblet into letting him into the Tournament, or he got someone else to do it for him. That doesn't put Harry in a good light at all. I, Del, wrote : > > Only one year, yes, but a year in which he invested himself *very* > > heavily in his work. The Ministry became his second family so to > > speak. Shannon replied : > A family that can't remember that his name is Weasley, not > Weatherby! :) Del replies : It's only Crouch who made that mistake. Crouch, who was overworked, acted strangely all year and disappeared mysteriously. Just Crouch, not the Ministry. Shannon wrote : > I think that Percy's reaction is due mostly to the fact that deep > down he knows his father was right. He knows, even if he blusters > and makes himself look important to his family, that Crouch never > depended on him like he pretended. Percy isn't stupid enough to > think that after an inquiry, being in all kinds of trouble at work, > and being an assistant to a man who barely knew he was there, he'd > be promoted to assistant to the Minister. It's just not logical, and > Percy's too smart not to have figured that out, even if he doesn't > want to admit it. Weasley Pride, that's what that is. He's being > willfully blind. Del replies : I disagree completely :-) We learn that pretty quickly in the year, Mr Crouch started skipping work days, and by January he'd stopped coming to work altogether. He was sending owls to Percy, who was for all practical means in charge of the office from January to June ! He must not have done such a bad job, because the Ministry would have appointed someone more experienced to take things over if he had. And remember : we're talking international cooperation, which must be quite a touchy field. And yet we *never* hear that Percy made any blunder or that anyone complained about him. That tells a lot to me. Then Mr Crouch disappears, and an inquiry is made. But the inquiry isn't about Percy's work, it's about Percy's *intentions*. Bill tells us that the Ministry has been looking at the notes Crouch supposedly sent, to make sure that they were really from him. Well, they are, so Percy is perfectly innocent in the matter. So what are we left with ? A bright capable young man, a former Hogwarts Head Boy, who managed to replace his boss after just a few months's practice, but didn't even try to disobey his orders. Junior assistant to the Minister does *not* seem like too big a promotion to me, for such a *promising* young fellow. Shannon wrote : > Do we actually know how quickly Percy was alerted? Obviously he > wouldn't have known as quickly as the other Weasley children but > Arthur's fate was uncertain for several hours, through an entire > night. Molly didn't come to Grimmauld Place and tell the others he'd > be ok until 5 in the morning. I reread that part of the book and > couldn't find any indication of when Percy was told. Del replies : Apart from his family, who would have warned Percy ?? *Why* would anyone in St Mungo's wake him up in the middle of the night to tell him his father was dying ? It's not like Percy could do anything for Arthur. No, apart from Molly, I don't see that anyone would have warned Percy. And we are pointedly *not* told IIRC that Molly warned Percy that night. So logic has it that Percy learned the news in the morning when he went to work (the Ministry would be buzzing with it, I bet). And by that time, Arthur was already out of danger. Shannon wrote : > And even if he didn't find out until later, George later says > that he's never so much as asked after him. Regardless of how > angry Percy is, I can't understand that. Del replies : Let me ask you : would George know if Percy had called St Mungo's ? Would he know if Percy had met Arthur's healer in the Ministry or anywhere else and asked about his father ? Would he know if Percy had asked Perkins at work ? Would he know if Percy had sent someone to collect news for him (as Assistant to the Minister, I'm sure he can send someone to get news about a head of department without looking suspicious) ? Would he know if Arthur's healer was reporting to Percy privately every day ? What George knows is awfully limited, I would not take his word for the absolute truth. Shannon wrote : > He can either admit that Harry & Co were right all along and he was > wrong (snip) > even if Arthur lets it go (we know Molly will as she's tried to make > peace and been cruelly rejected more than once already), I doubt > very much Ron and Fred and George, even Ginny perhaps, will do so > as easily. Not to mention Harry. I don't even know that Arthur > will. Weasley Pride, again. Del replies : Oddly enough, I'm pretty sure Harry would forgive Percy if Percy sincerely apologised. Harry is disappointed by Percy, but he doesn't take any of it really personally, even when Percy writes horrible things about him in his letter to Ron. Ron and Ginny would make sure Percy is sincere and they would maybe make his life a bit harder for a few days, but I'm sure in the end they would relent. The Twins were always a major part of Percy's problem, and I'm afraid they would still be. They are way too intolerant to accept his apologies. I'm sure they would make his life as hard as they could for a very long time. But then, that's pretty much what they've been doing all their life, isn't it ? Arthur... He would *externally* forgive Percy for sure, at least because of Molly. Internally, I don't know. Shannon wrote : > There are simply too many Weasleys for them all to make it through > this alive, I can't help but think one or two of them will die > before it's over. Del replies : Agreed. But I would find it *horribly simplistic* if it came out that the less liked Weasley ends up dying, as if he *deserved* it, for being such a pompous ambitious hard-working blind git. *Nobody* deserves to die for *that* ! I'm not saying Percy must not die. I just wish he could die like everyone else : after having chosen the good side, and not as a redemption. Del From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Sun Jul 18 22:07:33 2004 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 22:07:33 -0000 Subject: Oh my goodness, what book are THEY reading? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106802 Tammy Rizzo wrote, after reading the translation of an article published in Le Monde: "I just finished it, and I can't help but wonder, what on EARTH are they putting in the French translations?!" Iris (a French member): Hi, Tammy! The first time I read the series, it was in its French version. I can tell you that our translator, Jean Fran?ois M?nard, has done a good job. He didn't change the story at all. We never see Harry eating a slice of camembert, and Hagrid doesn't drink a single drop of Beaujolais. Even Trevor escapes la sauce au beurre, though he looks like a frog. Tammy: "Or is this just one more example of someone reading the books with a particular agenda in mind, and thereby skewing their perceptions towards their own pre-set bias?" Iris: I agree with what Del replied to your post: put the blame on the New York Times for publishing the article that made you feel uncomfortable. I'd like to add, with Kneazy, that Mr Yocaris, who wrote the article, is probably an elitist academic. These people generally despise what is `popular', like the `Harry Potter' series. But however, I don't think it's only a French or an academic tradition. All academics are not pit bulls, Kneazy, they are only too much specialized, and, yes, some of them tend to think they are absolutely right (for both reasons, I refused to work for university when they asked me). Back to our topic, I'm not sure Mr Yocaris wanted to protect our Belles Lettres from `easy to read Harry'. He was criticizing the books because they were famous, and this is an `international and common' reaction. You probably know in your own country people (and not only academics) who don't like a book, or a movie, or an artist, because they are successful. There are many Potters, and many Malfoys to hate them because they are famous. If Mr Yocaris didn't see, or didn't want to see what these books actually are well, too bad for him. After all, it's only *his* opinion, and *his* goof. Example: he wrote Cedric died because he was *weak*. He forgot that Cedric was one of the Triwizard Tournament champions, and had the characteristics of a knight. He obviously misinterpreted the character. He wanted to criticize the books, because, as a trainer for future teachers, as an academic, it was his job. He simply gave an evidence of what happens when you talk about something without mastering it completely, or when you build an unbiased analyze. If you can read French, or if it has been translated to English, you can read an essay titled `Harry Potter, les raisons d'un succ?s', by Isabelle Smadja. I think you could like it, and a t least you could see that a *single* article, written by a *single* author, doesn't reflect necessarily the opinion of a whole nation. Jem replied to Tammy saying: "So then the only explanation can be the ancient rivalry between France and England which has now extended to America, having rapidly ruled out any unbiased analysis of the actual work of fiction and here I'm speaking of the Potter books not the review itself." Iris: Rivalry? Even with people like Mr Yocaris training the future teachers, the Harry Potter books are by now part of our school programs, and not only when the kids are given English lessons. One way to belittle the fame the English Potter books and the American Potter movies have here in France could be not to talk about them. But what happens is quite the contrary. And on another way, I've never heard of French people blacklisting or burning the Potter books Jem: "Oh let's go have another croissant, shall we? Then do some shopping in our trendy boutiques, spending beaucoup euros on transient fashions from Parisien ateliers." Iris: As I said previously, a *single* article, written by a *single* author, doesn't reflect necessarily the opinion of a whole nation. Amicalement, Iris From Batchevra at aol.com Sun Jul 18 22:10:19 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 18:10:19 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius Luring Snape Message-ID: <29.5c85de8c.2e2c4f4b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106803 In a message dated 7/18/04 9:41:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, foxmoth at qnet.com writes: >We know he's capable of murder. That much of ESE!Lupin is canon. He was going to kill Pettigrew...and you don't think he had it in him to try to kill Snape? ::shrugs:: Pippin< The operative word here is going to, we have never seen Lupin kill anyone in the books, nor have we seen any canon on it. Plus it seemed to me when Harry stopped them from taking their revenge on Pettigrew, both Sirius and Remus looked staggered, I figure partly because they were steeling themselves into doing a spell they really didn't want to do, but felt compelled to do it. Pettigrew on the other hand, had no compunction to kill muggles and frame Sirius and betray the Potters.I see a difference in what happened in the Shrieking Shack and what Remus is about. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 22:15:57 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 22:15:57 -0000 Subject: Let's burn down the Houses ! (was : The Sorting Hat doesn't sort ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106804 Jenni wrote : > You know, I'm beginning to think this theory, about the sorting > hat not really "sorting" and just taking what's in the first year's > mind instead, has quite a lot of merit. At the very least, what > canon we have doesn't contradict this particular view. Del replies : You know what, Jenni ? You're starting to get me convinced. But I don't like that, oh no, not at all ! What it would basically mean would be that the Sorting would reinforce any prejudice the kids would have had when arriving at Hogwarts, and I find that *disgusting* !! Let's take Draco for example : he believes the crap his father has taught him all his life about the superiority of the purebloods, and he wants to follow in his father's footsteps where the Dark Arts are concerned. So he arrives at Hogwarts *wanting* to be Sorted into the House that will support him in his opinions and ambitions. And instead of throwing him in Gryffindor along with the Trio so that he's got a chance to discover something new and maybe change his mind, the Hat obligingly puts him in the only House that won't challenge him ! Disgusting. I think it's high time someone takes the decision to burn down the Houses and rebuild a new system based on something arbitrary, like putting the (new !) names of the 4 Houses in that stupid Hat and having the students pick one blindly, for example. Del From patientx3 at aol.com Sun Jul 18 22:18:51 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 22:18:51 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius lure Severus into the Willow? (was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106805 Potioncat: >> I just realized your point was that Snape isn't working on a life debt obligation, he's protecting Harry out of general sense of duty. Actually, that makes it even more noble (Did you intend that?) Do I recall that you don't agree with DD's statement about the Life Debt? I may have to find time to look into that...it is the sort of dis-information DD might hand out. << HunterGreen: Yes, I don't really agree with Dumbledore's assesment of 'life-debt' in the case of Snape and James (and actually in the case of a *real* life debt, with Peter and Harry, I have yet to understand why its considered "magic", since Peter is for the most part ignoring it). And yes, that does make Snape more 'noble' when it comes to saving Harry. I just don't see Snape as the type who would be trying to save Harry only out of loyalty to a life-debt he had with Harry's *father*, who is dead. Because the implication there, is that without the life-debt he would just let Harry fall off his broom in SS/PS, even though he figured out that *someone* was jinxing it (which the rest of the teachers weren't bright enough to figure out, or at least not proactive enough to do anything about). I think that *Dumbledore* may perceive there to be a debt between Snape and James, but I haven't seen any proof that *Snape* thinks this. In PoA, when Harry brings up the prank incident, Snape doesn't seem to think James was being heroic at all, which makes it hard to believe that he feels he 'owes' James for it. From Batchevra at aol.com Sun Jul 18 22:31:08 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 18:31:08 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pureblood attitudes and the word "racism" (Was: James... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106806 In a message dated 7/18/04 1:11:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, delwynmarch at yahoo.com writes: >Del replies : But even cunning and ambition seem to be regarded as negative traits. All the other Houses favour character traits that are positive without ambiguity (courage, intelligence, hard work and loyalty), but Slytherin favours a quality that is most of the time described as negative : ambition. Just look at how people dislike Percy because he's ambitious, how they often conclude that's he's going to end up evil just because of his ambition. Del< I don't think that people find ambition as bad or evil, it is how you use it. Percy uses it against his family, Draco uses it to please his father, who is a DE. Harry has ambition, to prove himself. It would be like someone who is going to the Olympics as an athlete, they have an ambition to be the best, win gold medals, but some will step on people and pull them down while lifting themselves up, while others will be curteous and cheer for others as they would themselves. Slytherin uses ambition in a cunning way, which can be for bad or even good, while Gryffindor does have ambition, but will help as well as go for the target. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From patientx3 at aol.com Sun Jul 18 22:47:35 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 22:47:35 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius lure Severus into the Willow? (was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106807 HunterGreen previously: > Well, that's why I said 'unwritten'. Lockhart was turned to help save > Ginny in CoS (to which he does indeed complain that it wasn't in the > job description, but it was expected of him anyway). Mel: >> It most certianly was NOT expected of him. If he'd been halfway competent it would have been, surely, but what actually happened there was the Snape-McGonnogal tag team approach of simply getting him the hell out of everyone's way. It was only Harry and Ron (duh) who honestly (?) expected Lockhart to help. << HunterGreen: That was what I meant, that Harry and Ron expected him to help, and when he argued, their rebuff was "You're the defense against the dark arts teacher!" Again, no *official* duty, or *written* duty, but still occasionally part of the job. Obviously the other teachers only asked him to find the chamber because *he* had been going around claiming he knew where it was, and they wanted to get rid of him. Mel: > It is *always* any teacher's job to assure or at least help in the > assurance of student safety. That is what you saw in the troll > episode and the situation with searching the school for Sirius > Black. There isn't a school I know of (and based on canon, Hogwarts > is no exception) that would allow teachers to sit back and do > nothing while students were threatened in any way, whether it be > some disaster, say fire in the dorms, or an intruder on campus and > the like. HunterGreen: And I agree with you. However, in the case of an intruder in the school -- an escaped convict(!) in fact -- wouldn't a typical school be more inclined to call the police rather than search the school themselves? Obviously Hogwarts is different, since all the teachers have wands and are trained with them (and the school governs itself for the most part), but in a 'muggle' school, would you really give each teacher a gun and ask them to go wandering around corners looking for a deranged murderer? (and actually, with a wand or not, *I* wouldn't be too thrilled about doing that). My original point was that Snape is protecting Harry out of a duty to the school rather than a specific life-debt. (which is just my opinion, of course) From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 22:55:09 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 22:55:09 -0000 Subject: Pureblood attitudes and the word "racism" (Was: James... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106808 Batchevra wrote : > I don't think that people find ambition as bad or evil, it is how > you use it. Del replies : I disagree. Pretty much *anytime* in the potterverse the word "ambition" is mentioned, it is in a negative way. I can't think of one single person who's been described as ambitious and wasn't condemned for it. Batchevra wrote : > It would be like someone who is going to the Olympics as an athlete, > they have an ambition to be the best, win gold medals, but some > will step on people and pull them down while lifting themselves up, > while others will be curteous and cheer for others as they would > themselves. Del replies : The Hat knows that the Slytherins naturally belong to the first category, it says so in one of his songs : those cunning folks will use any means to achieve their goals, or something of that effect. So why keep a system which puts all those kids together ? Why not create a new system that will mix them with more noble-minded students ? Putting them together is almost *condemning* them to turn bad, especially with the level of competition at Hogwarts. I mean, everyone knows they won't hesitate to play dirty if they feel they have to, and yet they are put together in a House that actually favours them for those precise traits ! As we say in France : we're walking on our heads here ! Del From ariston3344 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 21:37:59 2004 From: ariston3344 at yahoo.com (ariston3344) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:37:59 -0000 Subject: Statute of Secrecy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106809 Hi, I'm new here (*wave*), and I'm sorry if this has come up before, but I couldn't find anything. Here's my latest nitpicky question: when Harry casts the Patronus in OotP to save himself and Dudley, why does the MoM make a big deal about the fact that he did this in front of a Muggle (Dudley)? This is mentioned in the letter he gets from the MoM, and Fudge even goes out of his way to emphasize this at the hearing. Ordinarily, of course, wizards aren't supposed to do magic in front of Muggles, but throughout the books there are exceptions for the immediate family of wizards. Hermione's parents go to Diagon Alley, and Justin Finch-Fletchley's parents read his DADA schoolbooks. When Fred & George give Dudley the ton-tongue toffee, Mr. Weasley doesn't mention breach of secrecy when he scolds them; furthermore, he himself tried to come by Floo powder, and he uses magic to fix Dudley, and the Dursleys' living room, without apparently modifying their memories. Hagrid similarly is not worried about breach of *secrecy* when he gives Dudley the pig's tail. It seems clear all through the books that Vernon, Petunia, and Dudley know all about magic and the WW, even if they try to ignore it (unlike Marge, who is not in Harry's immediate family, and whose memory DOES get modified). So since there must be an exception to the Statute of Secrecy for immediate family, why would the MoM bring up violation of secrecy as part of the charges against Harry? And why is it not mentioned, as part of Harry's defense, that the only Muggle witness (Dudley) was in his immediate family? If the *main* issue was that Harry was underage, that's fine as far as it goes... but then why bring up the fact that Dudley is a Muggle at all? It just doesn't seem relevant. Just a question that's been nagging me... small though it is. :) -ariston From dontask2much at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 21:52:55 2004 From: dontask2much at yahoo.com (charme) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 17:52:55 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry & Elf Blood ( was Harry & the Fisher King) References: Message-ID: <07ad01c46d11$95c8e860$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> No: HPFGUIDX 106810 Jen Reese wrote: > So hey, maybe Godric was an Elf before they became enslaved, eh? > Actually, I wonder if in the fight with Gryffindor, Slytherin didn't > put a spell on GG to become an Elf, his bloodline forever enslaved > until the 'innocent' born of his blood appears at the castle. Say it > only affected everyone who came after Godric, and a branch of his > family remained human, and is the branch Harry descended from. That > branch started marrying Muggles and no one with magical powers was > born until Lily. And then.....ta da, Harry the 'pure of heart' was > finally born and marked as an equal to the last remaining descendant > of Slytherin. Whoo, I could go on....but will see if Charme, Valky > or anyone else wants to speculate with me! Charme: Maybe? :) What interests me is that JKR's work has been influenced by Tolkein, and according to canon, there were more than 1 "flavor" of the elvish, specifically the Three Kindred of the Elves. I notice most references in JKR's books are specifically called out as "house elves, which makes me wonder if thru the bloodline, other Elves weren't in the mix in some way. Elven lore reveals elves were particularly gifted with spells and charms having learned magic from the "ancient ones," and we already know Lily's wand (and herself) was quite suited for charm work. I'm torn between this theory and another I have about James Potter: it's canon that most of the pureblood Wizards had house elves, which makes me wonder if and why the Potters didn't have one too? From Batchevra at aol.com Sun Jul 18 23:09:59 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 19:09:59 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Oh my goodness, what book are THEY reading? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106811 In a message dated 7/18/04 3:43:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, delwynmarch at yahoo.com writes: >One thing that shocked me right away in the Potterverse for example is the emphasis put on competition. Those kids are only 11 when they arrive at Hogwarts, and yet they are right away told that *everything* they do or don't do can have repercussions not only on themselves but on their House as well. Know your lessons, you can earn your House points. Kiss someone in the robebushes on Christmas night, and you can lose your House points. I understand the concept of putting kids in competitive environments, and I see what good results it can bring, but I feel it has been pushed too far in HP. Competition is a very good thing, it's a fact of life that the kids have to learn. But putting them in a situation where they are competing 24 hours a day, always on the same team and always against the same opponents strongly upsets me.< Competition in any school or any area is what is around us. I went to a highly competitive school, not only in academics (recently my former HS was ranked in the top 50 here in the US) at the time I went it was higher, but also in a rivalry of the other HS in my area. We had jackets that proclaimed whether it was North or South you went to, boys and girls wore these jackets. I see the House system in Hogwarts and probably representative of what happens in Britains school systems, especially the public schools (private schools in the US). When I graduated I was in the bottom 50% of my class with an average that would have put me in another school in the top 20%. There are highly competitive schools and ones that basically let you meditate, Hogwarts has competition and teaches what it needs to, usually. >On the other hand, Mr Yocaris wrote his article for Le Monde, a French newspaper aimed at French readers. It was a perfectly valid thing for him to do, to point out how the HP books, being British books, can go against the beliefs of a large part of the French society. They have been translated in French and marketed in France, which is in itself an authorisation for them to be criticised by French standards. In conclusion, I would say that if anyone is to blame for shocking you, Tammy, it's the New York Times. I sometimes (often) get shocked by what American and British magazines and newspapers publish, but I acknowledge that they are *not* aimed at *me*. But unfortunately it's an old game that won't stop any time soon, for editors to pick and choose articles in other countries' publications that they just *know* will shock their own readers. And of course they rarely explain the context in which those articles were written. Del< Most Newspapers do have a slant, just as reporters, documentaries (Michael Moore comes to mind), and most news outlets (TV, radio). So the NYT was showing the slant of Le Monde, and I am sure that Le Monde was showing the slant of the NYT when a book came out about 9/11 and claimed that the attack on the Pentagon was a hoax (I don't know if Le Monde actually did this, but the fact that the book was a best seller in France at the time makes me wonder). There are indisputable facts, but interpreting them is where people differ. You come from a backround that is different from mine and we see a few things differently. For the record, I don't believe everything that the NYT prints, they have a tendency to try and back up their blatant mistakes. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sun Jul 18 23:20:05 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 23:20:05 -0000 Subject: Harry & Elf Blood ( was Harry & the Fisher King) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106812 > Jen said: > > When does JKR's story begin? My speculation is starting to remind me of the wounded Fisher King in the legend of the Holy Grail, where he & his desolated country can only be healed if an 'innocent' comes to his castle and asks the correct question: "Whom does the Grail serve?" or "What ails thee?" > > > This is an interesting analogy because Harry is definitely the > > innocent who arrives at the castle, but he doesn't ask questions!! When will he ask the crucial question and what will that question be? > > Valky replied: > > He *has*, Jen. > > Harry came to the castle with one burning question on his mind > that parrallels both: whom does the grail serve? AND what ails thee? "Who am I?" "Who is Harry Potter" > > > > Harry even answers a question about wether he is Harry or not > > with "Oh him..." in PS. > > Jen: And also, 'whom does Harry serve'? I'm a little confused by > your answer Valky, even though it struck me as an "aha" moment when I read it. Probably because I pictured Harry asking the question about someone or something else, at a pivotal moment. > Valky: He does ask himself whom does Harry serve, this is true. I ought to clarify how I saw the two questions also in case you might need my POV on that. I see who am I? as being, Harry has grown up believing he was muggle and unimportant, he goes to the castle after having been told that he is a wizard and that his parents are not drunk bad drivers who never took care of their child but instead James and Lily Potter Famous and Admired by the WW. So he really doesn't know who he is anymore. The questions whom does the Grail serve and What ails thee, are like saying to the wizard world why do you need and worship "Harry Potter"? and what is he supposed to do? Jen also said: > When you talk about 'who is Harry Potter' it makes me wonder again > about his blood. And Lily's, Petunia's and Dudley's. Valky, you were in a discussion about those particular characters having Elf blood, which was very interesting (and could explain Petunia's cleaning obssesion!). Valky: OF course, cleaning Obsession! AHA! more canon to add to the pile thanks Jen. It is a overly repeated adjective isn't it. And charme was looking for those because its seems that we are on a trail of them in particular. You are one hell of a brainstormer you know! Jen also said: > Now I'm thinking the connection with Godric Gryffindor > seems almost a given, a parallel to Riddle's connection with > Slytherin through his mother's bloodline. I thought having > Gryffindor's blood played a role in saving baby Harry, but Charme's idea of Elf blood is growing on me. > > So hey, maybe Godric was an Elf before they became enslaved, eh? > Actually, I wonder if in the fight with Gryffindor, Slytherin didn't put a spell on GG to become an Elf, his bloodline forever enslaved Valky: Now we're talking! I really think your on to something in two ways. Godric could be an elf thats not totally impossible. What if the other houses were different parts of the magical brethren, also. Say for example that Rowena was a centauress which sort of catches me as true because she was on about wisdom and purest intelligence reminds me of Majorian and Firenze, and Helga could have been what? I wonder. From Batchevra at aol.com Sun Jul 18 23:28:29 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 19:28:29 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pureblood attitudes and the word "racism" (Was: James... Message-ID: <102.4a2402c0.2e2c619d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106813 In a message dated 7/18/04 7:13:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, delwynmarch at yahoo.com writes: >Batchevra wrote : > I don't think that people find ambition as bad or evil, it is how > you use it. Del replies : I disagree. Pretty much *anytime* in the potterverse the word "ambition" is mentioned, it is in a negative way. I can't think of one single person who's been described as ambitious and wasn't condemned for it.< Why did you snip the part that I used to show that Harry has ambition, the sorting Hat says it, " and a nice thirst to prove yourself," Page 90, Philosopher's Stone UK version. Paperback. I have said that Percy is ambitious, but it is the way he is going about his ambition, which is a choice he made, that I think is wrong. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 23:46:01 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 23:46:01 -0000 Subject: Oh my goodness, what book are THEY reading? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106814 Batchevra wrote : > I see the House system in Hogwarts and probably representative of > what happens in Britains school systems, especially the public > schools (private schools in the US). (snip) > There are highly competitive schools and ones that basically let you > meditate, Hogwarts has competition and teaches what it needs to, >usually. Del replies : And everything in the middle :-) I *know* all of that. I *never* mentioned that before because even as I got a shock reading about it, at the very same time I realised it was completely in accordance with what I know of other school systems. It's quite drastically different from my school system (public school, not private, in France) and even from the values we had at school (competition encouraged in class and on the sports field, but being punished because you were kissing someone ??), but *my* experience is *not* relevant where HP is concerned. However, as a parent for example, or a teacher, I might want to point out to my French child that some values commonly held in HP are not necessarily values I completely approve of. Do you see the difference ? When discussing canon with you guys, I *cannot* bring up my cultural difference, because it's not relevant. But when discussing the books with my fellow whatever (Frenchmen, family, colleagues), my values do count, and I have every right to criticise those expressed in the books if I want to. That's what Mr Yocaris was doing in his article. Batchevra wrote : > There are indisputable facts, but interpreting them is where people > differ. Del replies : Too many facts are not even indisputable. Even in the Potterverse, which is based solely on 5 books and a few interviews, too many facts are hotly disputed. So in RL.... Batchevra wrote : > You come from a backround that is different from mine and we see a > few things differently. Del replies : You'd be amazed at the number of things we might see differently just out of different cultural backgrounds. I spent 10 months in English-speaking Canada, and went on vacation for a few days in the States. The cultural differences between France and both Canada and the States were nothing short of amazing. Del From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 23:58:04 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 23:58:04 -0000 Subject: Slytherin ambition revisited. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106815 Alla wrote : > If Sorting Hat will choose new Slyhts based on only how cunning and > ambitious they are, I would like that very much. Del replies : Not me, not when it's common knowledge that those kids can't master their ambition ("use any means" is what the Sorting Hat says). They need people *in their own House* to help them keep their ambition into perspective, people like the Gryffindors. Alla wrote : > And case of Percy is certainly on point - I don't dislike him > because he is ambitious, I dislike him because he turned his back > on his family and moreover, I am afraid that he will betray someone > from the Order to Voldemort. Del replies : He might betray someone who happens to belong to the Order, but he couldn't betray them *because* they belong to the Order, since he can't know about the Order : DD was barely starting to resurrect it when Percy left his family. And even if people *now* dislike him because of his estrangement from his family, let's be honest : who liked him before anyway ? Pretty mcuh nobody. And why ? Because he was so pompous and so darn, well, ambitious. Even Ron criticised him, saying he could do a Crouch and give someone of his own family over to the Dementors, only because of his *ambition*. And pretty much everyone on this board agreed with him. Alla wrote : > By the way, Percy is one of the characters, whose motivations I am > most definitely curious to learn about. He is written as potentially > complex character. Del replies : Oh boy, I wish *I* knew :-) !!! I wouldn't have to work so hard to defend him then. Del From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 00:10:06 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 00:10:06 -0000 Subject: Pureblood attitudes and the word "racism" (Was: James... In-Reply-To: <102.4a2402c0.2e2c619d@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106816 Batchevra wrote : > Why did you snip the part that I used to show that Harry has > ambition, the sorting Hat says it, " and a nice thirst to prove > yourself," Del replies : I snipped it for 2 reasons : 1. Because nobody ever described Harry as ambitious (except maybe Rita Skeeter, I don't remember :-). 2. Because Harry might have had a thirst to prove himself, but he never had much ambition. He proved himself on the Quidditch pitch and by fighting LV and he's satisfied with that (not that he shouldn't be). He's not showing any kind of ambition, either in his studies or in his projects for the future. He hopes to get good results at his OWLs, and he fancies becoming an Auror. Not exactly *ambition* as I see it. Batchevra wrote : > I have said that Percy is ambitious, but it is the way he is going > about his ambition, which is a choice he made, that I think is > wrong. Del replies : Percy was *always* presented as being wrong for being so ambitious. It was wrong for him to be so proud to be a Prefect and then Head Boy. It was wrong that he studied so much and pushed others to do the same. It was wrong that he was so strict about enforcing the rules. And so on. It was *always* wrong for Percy to be so ambitious. And pompous, let's not forget pompous, or rather let's not *forgive* pompous, should I say ;-) I mean, *honestly*, who *ever* thought that the Twins should leave Percy alone ? Who ever disagreed with their opinion of him ? Hum ? Which comes as rather ironic now, considering that we've discovered that they are just as ambitious as he is, just not in the same way. Del From MadameSSnape at aol.com Mon Jul 19 00:22:19 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:22:19 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clarification On Terminology - Hag Details Message-ID: <128.467513f7.2e2c6e3b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106817 In a message dated 7/18/2004 4:46:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com writes: Hags are associated with winter in Celtic folklore, although I'm not entirely sure why. This may be one reason why the hag in the Leaky Cauldron in PoA is wearing "a thick woolen balaclava," in addition to hiding her face. ============= Sherrie here: The Hag (Cailleach) is one of the Aspects of the Triple Goddess - otherwise known as the Crone. She is the Death Goddess - but of course, to the Celts death truly WAS "the next great adventure". She is also the Wise One, who's seen it all, done it all, & is infinitely amused by it all. She's connected with Winter, because it is the season of Death - and like Her, Winter keeps its secrets to itself. I'm wondering whether Harry's encounters with hags correlate in any way with the deaths he's witnessed - or with attacks on his own person. Could they be a sort of omen to him? Sherrie (hoping this isn't TOO OT...) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 01:07:01 2004 From: ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com (ohneill_2001) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 01:07:01 -0000 Subject: Slytherin ambition revisited. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106818 Del wrote: > And even if people *now* dislike him because of his estrangement from > his family, let's be honest : who liked him before anyway ? Pretty > mcuh nobody. And why ? Because he was so pompous and so darn, well, > ambitious. Cory replies: While it may be true that Percy was not the main characters' favorite person even before his estrangement, I think the feeling they have for him now is an entirely different sentiment than what they felt before. We all know people IRL like Percy (in fact, objective people would probably say that *I* am a bit like Percy, if I must be perfectly honest. :) ) People who are ambitious, overly career-oriented, and a bit anal-retentive are not generally well-liked; however, I don't think most people feel genuine *dislike* for such people as long as their ambition isn't hurting others. In Percy's case, I think his ambition always made him annoying, but it wasn't until it caused him to turn his back on those who loved him that he became truly disliked. --Cory From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Mon Jul 19 01:08:22 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 01:08:22 -0000 Subject: The Potion Puzzle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106819 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dcgmck" wrote: > Dave Witley's analysis of Snape's potion puzzle in the first HP > (see "Files",) draws an insightful parallel between the bottles and the positions of a Quidditch team. > > "It is interesting to note that one bottle, the smallest, of the > seven goes forward (Seeker), one goes back (Keeper), and two, > including the largest, stick close to the other three (Beaters). > It's harder to equate the three poison potions with Chasers." > LOL No it's not! ROFL! oh shees, I can't stop! Um.... this is Snapes puzzles right? And James was a Chaser. Chaser and Poison.. James and Poison.. James and BANE OF MY EXISTENCE!!! HAHAHAHAHHA I am absolutely rolling now!!!! Sorry Sorry I'll go back to reading the real points of your essay now... Valky LOL and not able to stop! From n2fgc at arrl.net Mon Jul 19 01:15:33 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:15:33 -0400 Subject: Punished For A Kiss? (was Re: Oh my goodness, what book are THEY reading?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106820 [Del wrote]: | | I *know* all of that. I *never* mentioned that before because even as | I got a shock reading about it, at the very same time I realised it | was completely in accordance with what I know of other school systems. | It's quite drastically different from my school system (public school, | not private, in France) and even from the values we had at school | (competition encouraged in class and on the sports field, but being | punished because you were kissing someone ??), but *my* experience is | *not* relevant where HP is concerned. [Lee]: I don't think that the loss of points was a punishment for kissing, per se. I took that as Snape in a seriously bad mood, no doubt due to his conversation with Karkaroff and the burgeoning of the mark on his arm, etc. Plus, he had Moody!Crouch keeping tabs on him, too. IMO, Snape was just striking out. Remember, he threatened Harry and Ron for just being in his path. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me; | n2fgc at arrl.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From melclaros at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 01:43:21 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 01:43:21 -0000 Subject: How did Sirius lure Severus into the Willow? (was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106821 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "huntergreen_3" > And I agree with you. However, in the case of an intruder in the > school -- an escaped convict(!) in fact -- wouldn't a typical school > be more inclined to call the police rather than search the school > themselves? but in a 'muggle' school, would you really give > each teacher a gun and ask them to go wandering around corners > looking for a deranged murderer? (and actually, with a wand or not, > *I* wouldn't be too thrilled about doing that). Of course not, but in this case we have YET to see any form of "police" whatsoever and I'm willing to bet if we did, Dumbledore would trust them about as far as he trusts anything else Government Related. This begs the question, just who/what ARE the 'police' in the WW? Aurors? I doubt it, they seem more of a special forces sort of thing- -SWAT at the very least. I don't think they're handing out tickets for Apparating without a license. Mel From juli17 at aol.com Sun Jul 18 23:58:30 2004 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 19:58:30 EDT Subject: We've been going in the wrong direction... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106822 troublenbass: > Haven't thought about that, but it seems entirely plausible. I still > like the long lost relative idea though. WHERE ARE HARRY'S > GRANDPARENTS!? Where are anybody's grandparents!? Most kids the age of Hogwarts students have living grandparents, yet we hear nothing of Ron's grandparents (on either side), Dudley's (on Vernon's side), Draco's, etc. (If I missed mention of any, then I stand corrected). Only Neville has a living grandparent, that we know for certain. And Dumbledore seems to be one of the few living wizards over the age of 60, along with Neville's grandmother. Did all that generation's wizards die during the Voldemort reign, or even during the Grindelwald period? Julie From lorelei3dg at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 00:33:04 2004 From: lorelei3dg at yahoo.com (lorelei3dg) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 00:33:04 -0000 Subject: We've been going in the wrong direction... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106823 troublenbass wrote: WHERE ARE HARRY'S > GRANDPARENTS!? While we know nothing of James' family, we do know that Lily's parents "were proud of having a witch in the family." It makes sense that if they were still alive, they instead of the Dursleys would have taken Harry in - or at least been much more involved in Harry's life. For that matter, I can't imagine James' parents, apparent wizarding folk, ignoring Harry after GH either. From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Mon Jul 19 01:59:17 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 01:59:17 -0000 Subject: Statute of Secrecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106824 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ariston3344" wrote: > when Harry casts the Patronus in OotP to save himself and Dudley, > why does the MoM make a big deal about the fact that he did this in front of a Muggle (Dudley)? This is mentioned in the letter he gets from the MoM, and Fudge even goes out of his way to emphasize this at the hearing. > > Ordinarily, of course, wizards aren't supposed to do magic in front of Muggles, but throughout the books there are exceptions for the immediate family of wizards. Hermione's parents go to Diagon Alley, and Justin Finch-Fletchley's parents read his DADA schoolbooks. When Fred & George give Dudley the ton-tongue toffee, Mr. Weasley doesn't mention breach of secrecy when he scolds them; furthermore, he himself tried to come by Floo powder, and he uses magic to fix Dudley, and the Dursleys' living room, without apparently modifying their memories. > -ariston Valky: Hi Ariston! Welcome. I haven't seen this question before and it never really bothered me personally, either. I think that this is because I simply saw it as the ministry, well Fudge especially, were orchestrating a contrivance of interpretation of the statute to fit the purpose of discrediting Harry and only that. Underage magic, I suppose, was not thought to be enough of a transgression to fully undermine the credibility of the 'boy who lived' so all relevant legislation was roped in and construed slantways and longways etc in pure aim to deconstruct faith in Harry. Its just evidence of Fudges corruption to me. Great to have you on the List! From meidbh at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 00:54:59 2004 From: meidbh at yahoo.com (meidbh) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 00:54:59 -0000 Subject: Let's burn down the Houses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106825 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: "And instead of throwing him in Gryffindor along with the Trio so that he's got a chance to discover something new and maybe change his mind,the Hat obligingly puts him in the only House that won't challenge him! ... I think it's high time someone takes the decision to burn down the Houses and rebuild a new system based on something arbitrary, like putting the (new !) names of the 4 Houses in that stupid Hat and having the students pick one blindly, for example." Hmmm. Homogenise Hogwarts. Whatever would the founders say? And "that stupid hat" - how cruel! The Houses provide a substitute for the family (these are children after all) and most family members share a certain common view of the world. It's probably quite a good idea to put children who are likely to have a lot in common into the same Houses - it is after all their home for most of the year. They should still find more than enough challenges to their worldviews during the years they spend in the school. While the concept of competition between Houses could be seen as old fashioned, the idea of four Houses each with it's own distinct personality is timeless. We all want choice, to be able to choose the philosophy under which we or our children are educated. In the wizarding world there is only one place to go to school in Britain (as far as we know). It is probably a very good thing that within that school there are some choices. Each with its own flavour. A far more intersting question is what happens if you enter school with the heart of a Slytherin and then change? Can you then change Houses? It's the Slytherins in life that give Gryffindors the opportunity to be courageous! We need them :-) Meidbh From dk59us at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 02:15:20 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 02:15:20 -0000 Subject: Will the Slytherins leave Hogwarts ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106826 del wrote: > With LV out in the open, I'm guessing that those problems are only > going to increase. The pressure on the Slytherins in particular will > become nearly unbearable, and I'm afraid the other Houses won't do > much to help them. So my concern is this : will we see the day when > the Slytherins will decide to leave the school for good, just like > old Slytherin did ? And what effects would it have on the remaining > students ? > Del Eustace_Scrubb: I suspect that _some_ Slytherins may leave Hogwarts. But for this to parallel the departure of Salazar from the other three founders, wouldn't it mean that _all_ Slytherin students would have to leave and indeed that Slytherin House would cease to exist? I'm not sure I see that happening. Even if all current Slytherins left, there would still be incoming students who might be sorted into the house, unless the Sorting Hat refused to put anyone in Slytherin (or, depending on one's understanding of what the Sorting Hat does, unless no incoming students wanted to be sorted into Slytherin). If there were to be a mass exodus of Slytherins, what effect might that have on Snape? Would his position--whatever exactly it is--become untenable? Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From silmariel at telefonica.net Sun Jul 18 02:32:22 2004 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (silmariel) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 04:32:22 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Percy Weasley and "Donnie Brasco" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200407180432.22808.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 106827 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ericoppen" wrote: > > My theory is that he was > > working for Dumbledore all the time, as a deep-cover mole, > > like "Donnie Brasco" did infilitrating the Mafia... > > > > In some ways, Percy's role as Dumbledore's mole would be less > > difficult than most moles. He doesn't have to adopt a new identity- > > he's still Percy "Weatherby" Weasley, bright young upcoming star at > > the Ministry... of all of [the Weasleys], Percy is the only one > > who could pull this sort of trick off. > Lorel: > "Redemption" for Percy! Thank you! JKR has put quite a bit of effort > into portraying Percy as priggish and power-hungry, and I've been > resigned to the idea that his arrogance and ambition would lead > nowhere good. [snip]. Your theory also fits with JKR's penchant for showing that > things are not usually what they seem. Oh, I could certainly live > with this kind of plot twist! I suggested redemption for Percy or Percy!Spy in post number 80213 "Percy's Letter". There's even a reply from Eric, number 85242, in wich he agrees. You might find it an interesting thread. Carolina From prongs at marauders-map.net Mon Jul 19 02:40:17 2004 From: prongs at marauders-map.net (Silver Stag) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 22:40:17 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "I'm not proud of it" References: Message-ID: <012c01c46d39$ba6e22c0$0201a8c0@bettysue> No: HPFGUIDX 106828 ladyramkin2000: nor Lupin seem to appreciate how deeply hurt Harry is. But I was proud of Harry for snapping back "I'm fifteen!" when Lupin offered the lame excuse that James was only fifteen. Betty (me): See, I sided with Lupin. I really felt Harry was overreacting to that whole thing. People do stupid things, sometimes. That should have been a warning to Harry about doing stupid stuff. I wish I could explain my thoughts better, but I was disgusted with Harry throughout the whole book and that place was a prime example. Betty "Would you like us to clean out your ears for you?" inquired George, pulling out a long and lethal-looking metal instrument from inside one of the Zonko's bags. "Or any part of your body, really, we're not fussy where we stick this," said Fred. Fred and George Weasley, OOTP ----- Original Message ----- From: "melclaros" To: Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2004 5:05 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "I'm not proud of it" > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rebeka Gomes > wrote: > > --- ladyramkin2000 > > escreveu: > > --------------------------------- > > > > nor Lupin seem to appreciate how deeply hurt Harry is. > > But I was > > proud of Harry for snapping back "I'm fifteen!" when > > Lupin offered > > the lame excuse that James was only fifteen. > > > Mel: > That was one of my few, "Yay, Harry!!!" moments during that entire > book. You'd THINK the two 'grownups' would have given some serious > thought to their actions and attitude towards them after being > admonished that way by a fifteen year old, but alas, it did not > happen. > > Mel > > > > > ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > > Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Mon Jul 19 02:52:45 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 02:52:45 -0000 Subject: The Potion Puzzle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106829 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dcgmck" wrote: > About Dave Witley's analysis of Snape's potion puzzle > > Both in terms of physical size and in terms of numbers the parallel seems increasingly significant with each published volume. > > Harry is physically diminutive, and he is the character whose forward progress through the series is essential. He is the one whose search for identity and purpose most fascinates us. > > Hermione is the keeper of Harry's growing legend. > > Initially, Hagrid and Ron could be seen to serve as > Harry's "beaters", actually physically protecting him Now as Harry matures, he can be seen to have two distinct > organizations serving that role: the adults members of the Order of the Phoenix and his classmates in Dumbledore's Army. (The scale does seem to be escalating.) > Valky: Sorry about before, It was just irresistable to point how why the Chaser was the poison. It's makes sense that you didnt see it in this context because it really suited the other context so much better. LOL (still laughing BTW, thats my first new JKR joke in almost a month). Anyway to the point, again. I see your sense here. And it's funny you should equate the search for Harry's identity with the seeking of the Golden Snitch , the end of the game, as Jen and I were just discussing the precise same matter on the Fischer King thread. So to say, we both seem to think that Harry realising his identity is the real end of the story, the 250 point ending that can win the game if the other players have done well enough, or lose it if they haven't but then still a win for Harry in that he has found his true identity and the answer to his seeking question. (as with Bulgaria v Ireland in the QWC, I knew I'd find something to parrallel that result! Krum ends the game 'on his own terms') DG continues: > Kinda makes for a pretty cool parallel, especially since we have been told that Rowling has had the entire epic outlined from the > beginning. It makes formulaic sense to place one's outline at the > start of a piece. > Valky: Yes... and not all of us could locate the said clues for themselves... meaning me of course, but once I have them, I enjoy doing stuff with it so Thankyou DG DG: > > I'd like to propose that each of the seven volumes in the series will eventually be seen to correspond to one of these seven bottles and to one of the seven Quidditch positions. > > 1 PS/SS - ... SEEKER > 2 COS - Harry's first encounter with a variety of poisons: ........................................ Therefore CHASER #1 > 3 POA - Time and the ones who pursue Harry: ..........THis could be KEEPER or................. CHASER #2 Valky: I agree with Meltowne that book three is Chaser #2 and not the Keeper stage of the journey. I agree with the last line of defense analogy but moreover I believe that book three hints at the keeper but does not actually fully represent the backstory. So saying that the books parrallel not just the players but the actual game also. Book 1 is the release of the snitch Book 2 the game escalates the chasers have the Quaffle book 3 the chasers are attempting to score so the keeper comes into play.( secret keeper.. time keeper..) but the game is still young so the keeper may miss or strike without it mattering all that much to the outcome...yet. > 4 GOF - ducking and dodging Very likely..................................BEATER #1 > 5 OOTP - Voldemort's aggression and Harry's passive resistance poison bottle category.......................CHASER #3 > > That leaves a chaser and a beater text each, a bottle of wine and a bottle of poison. Valky: I like your take on that. But, since I support that the Keeper remains. I will nominate that we will get the bottle of wine next. And the step back through history last, I dont know for sure why I think it will be in this order because there are many many reasons. They range from Symbolism discussions to just how long I think JKR will hold out on telling us all who is ESE and HB and other such. Suffice to say that I think the secrets come last in the series, just as Quirrel was standing before the mirror in the end of PS. Since the next phase *is* a Beater I am sure, I have just decided to vote also that the HBP is the new Gyffindor Beater!!! Great thread DG ! From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jul 19 02:56:24 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 02:56:24 -0000 Subject: The Virtues of Hufflepuff House and Cedric Diggory (Was: Snape and . . .cour In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106830 Del wrote: > > But she sure has a strange way of dealing with the different Houses. > The Hufflepuffs too often look like twits. The Slytherins are all > evil. The Ravenclaws are almost invisible, and when they are not it's > not good news for them (Cho, Marrietta). And the Gryffindors are the > saviours of the world and the kings of the school. > > Talk about equal treatment and uniting of the Houses. > > Del, who knows that the books are told from Harry's point of view, no > need to remind her of that :-) Potioncat: The thing that I'm curious about is whether this will all end with Gryffindor being the best and the other houses being something less, or whether JKR will somehow demonstrate that each House has value. As much as I'd like it to be the latter, I think it will be the former. From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jul 19 03:05:53 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 03:05:53 -0000 Subject: Sorting Hat (and racism) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106831 Nora wrote: > Dear Carol, much of what you write is true, but you are still > expurgating the concept of Slytherin House by omitting the blood > factor--it seems that that really WAS the most important factor for > Sal, being as that-s what caused the final split in the long run. > It's canon that a buttload of Slytherins are DEs, which means they > believe in the ideals listed below...and when you group them all > together, with no outside amelioration, welll... > Potioncat: Sorry to jump in, and to only take on one part of this. We may know that a lot of DEs were Slytherins, but we don't know that a lot of Slytherins are DEs. I'm not even sure we know a lot of the DEs were Slytherin. It's just that we know some who were....as it happens all the ones we know about (except for one Gryffindor) were Slytherins. We know for example that Snape's old gang were in Slytherin, and that Malfoy was. I'm not so sure we know the others were. Nott, Crabbe, Goyle all have sons in Slytherin, but we don't know that they were in that House. I know, I know, it's reasonable to think that they must have been in Slytherin. But, it would be guessing. Potioncat From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jul 19 03:39:47 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 03:39:47 -0000 Subject: Who's the third dead death eater? / 'One who's left me forever...' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106832 > Carol responds: > Two small points. > 1) You can't apparate from Hogwarts, and there's no way that Snape > would have had time to leave the tournament unseen by Dumbledore, grab > a Death Eater's mask and hood, run to Hogsmeade, apparate, attend the > meeting, apparate back, run to his office to discard the mask and > hood, and return to the tournament. Potioncat: I'm not so much disagreeing as I'm posing other options. He wouldn't have to go to Hogsmeade. He would just have to get outside the walls of Hogwarts. And he wouldn't have to do this unseen by DD, because if he did go, he went with DD's knowledge. And as he and DD were expecting something, he could have his party clothes ready at a site off the grounds. In fact, if he and DD were planning on this, DD could have set up a site for Snape to use to apparate. But it's your next comment that really interests me. Carol: > 2) We *do* know his whereabouts. He saw Karkaroff flee the tournament > when Cedric and Harry touched the cup and disappeared, and he was with > Dumbledore to confront Crouch!Moody immediately after Harry returned. Potioncat: I'm sure you are right, but I had looked (quite a while back) and did not see any reference to Snape at all before Harry returned. Where does it say Snape saw Karkaroff flee (I thought it was Crouch! Moody who saw him flee.) We have no idea (well, no canon) for what happened at the Graveyard after Harry escaped. If Snape was there, and if LV dismissed him at once, he might have gotten back to DD fairly quickly. I don't think we see Snape until DD, Snape and McGonagall break in on Crouch!Moody. Oddly enough, I do think Snape was the "one who has left me forever." But I'm still looking at canon options. I snipped a part of your post where you quote Snape telling Karkaroff that he planned to stay with DD. And that is probably the most important clue. Potioncat: once again arguing with herself. From n2fgc at arrl.net Mon Jul 19 04:07:41 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 00:07:41 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Statute of Secrecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106833 From: M.Clifford | Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2004 21:59 | --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ariston3344" | wrote: | | > when Harry casts the Patronus in OotP to save himself and Dudley, | > why does the MoM make a big deal about the fact that he did this | in front of a Muggle (Dudley)? This is mentioned in the letter he | gets from the MoM, and Fudge even goes out of his way to emphasize | this at the hearing. | > | | | Valky: | Hi Ariston! Welcome. | I haven't seen this question before and it never really bothered me | personally, either. | I think that this is because I simply saw it as the ministry, well | Fudge especially, were orchestrating a contrivance of interpretation | of the statute to fit the purpose of discrediting Harry and only | that. | | Underage magic, I suppose, was not thought to be enough of a | transgression to fully undermine the credibility of the 'boy who | lived' so all relevant legislation was roped in and construed | slantways and longways etc in pure aim to deconstruct faith in Harry. | | Its just evidence of Fudges corruption to me. [Lee weighing her wand]: Add to that the manner and place of Harry's trial...purposeful switching of time and place in order, I'm sure, to make Harry look bad by arriving late. If Dd hadn't shown up and acted as Harry's Counsel, so to speak, Harry would have been raked over the proverbial coals. Dd knew what buttons to push in the questions he asked and points he made and gave Fudge and most of the Wizengamot a good case of the discomforts. It was clear that Harry had his supporters among the Wizengamot, but I'm sure they felt a bit of--uh--the pressure of the fudge and his minions. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me; | n2fgc at arrl.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From baseball_07_05 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 04:33:42 2004 From: baseball_07_05 at yahoo.com (Andrew) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 04:33:42 -0000 Subject: Oh my goodness, what book are THEY reading? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106834 Del replies : You'd be amazed at the number of things we might see differently just out of different cultural backgrounds. I spent 10 months in English-speaking Canada, and went on vacation for a few days in the States. The cultural differences between France and both Canada and the States were nothing short of amazing. Del I'm sorry, but it is sometimes hard for us poor Americans to see how much better the French culture, and views on Harry Potter are than ours. Sincerely, Your Stupid American From catlady at wicca.net Mon Jul 19 04:39:12 2004 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 04:39:12 -0000 Subject: Phineas Nigellus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106835 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eeyore5497" wrote: > Has anybody noticed in OoP p. 826, 828 that Phineas Nigellus which is > Sirius' Great Great Grandfather, first of all has a different last > name (not Black, how can that be?) Now that I'm caught up on list (I've read 1800 posts this weekend), I want to join with the people who said that the dear old Headmaster's name was Phineas Nigellus Black, and he was known by his two given names, as some people are. Back then, I looked the names, and Phineas is King James Bible spelling of Pinhas (also spelled Pinehas) which is a Hebrew named that drived from the Ancient Egyptian name Pa-Nehasi, which means Nubian (as we might name a kid Dane or Scott). And Nigellus is a Latinization of the (Irish IIRC) name Neil, but it has a history of people thinking it was derived from Latin word 'niger' which means 'black'. So his name was Black Black Black, close enough for a JKR joke. There are enough people who think "Phineas" is Hebrew for "snake head" that JKR probably also intended that as a reference. From catlady at wicca.net Mon Jul 19 04:42:27 2004 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 04:42:27 -0000 Subject: The unusual Gift? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106836 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "paul_terzis" wrote: > I have to add something else to the conversation. I am not quite > familiar with the superstitions of your countries. But here in > Greece we avoid to give perfume as a present to people we care and > love. It symbolizes seperation and clash between the person who > gives the perfume and the one who receives the perfume. The only way > to counter the bad effect is the person who accepts the perfume, to > give back to the person who gives the perfume a couple of coins. > Just for info!!! I've never heard of that superstition before. Here in USAmerica, we have a similar superstition about knives. If someonen gives someone a set of silverware (if it's *silver*, a whole set is an *expensive* gift), the recipient is supposed to give the giver one penny for each dinner knife, butter knife, and other knife in the set. The statement reason is that if you give a knife, it will cut your friendship, so sell the knives instead. From catlady at wicca.net Mon Jul 19 04:47:39 2004 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 04:47:39 -0000 Subject: Malfoy gold In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106837 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brenda M." wrote: > I mean where on Earth did Malfoys get their hands on all that gold. > Is it only me, or does it seem like he owns about half of all the > Wizarding gold there is?!?! My theory of how the Malfoys built up their fortune over the millennia goes along with why nice wizarding folk feel guily about past abuse of Muggles: I feel certain that Lucius Malfoy inherited his wealth, and he doesn't have to do any work except to manage his money. I fantasize that the ancestors of the Malfoys were already sitting pretty when the Romans came to Britain, but continued to increase their fortune since then. Early sources would include charging Muggle villages a large annual tax not to destroy them, conquering other wizards and confiscating their property, selling spells to rich Muggles, finding desposits of metal ore and other valuables and mining and processing them with slave or House Elf labor or by spells. Medieval sources would include owning large amounts of land and either farming it by slave or sharecropper labor and selling the produce, or renting it to non-slave farmers, and selling exotic foreign luxury goods (e.g. spices, silk, Oriental carpets) that could be imported much more easily by magic than by Muggle means. Modern sources would include being a venture capitalist or loan shark. I can easily imagine that Lucius Malfoy owned a broomstick company (owned it, not managed it) and offered to his competitors to buy them out at a ridiculously low price, and when they refused, somehow their factory, family home, and family members were all laid to waste with the Dark Mark glowing over the ruins... The broomstick factory, incidentally, could employ a number of parents of Hogwarts students, such the careful, hardworking Hufflepuff who individually hand-ties and charms each twig, and the obsessed Ravenclaw who invents the improved versions of the charms, and the inventory manager who notes how fast the wood, twigs, feathers, string, polish, sandpaper, and all are being used, and orders more in time that the store room won't run out. Some of those early sources of wizarding wealth would account for the hostility of Muggles toward wizarding folk, such as Binns mentioned during the Founding of Hogwarts: "it was an age when magic was feared by common people, and witches and wizards suffered much persecution." From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Mon Jul 19 04:58:13 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 04:58:13 -0000 Subject: The unusual Gift? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106838 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "paul_terzis" > wrote: > here in Greece we avoid to give perfume as a present to people we care and love. It symbolizes seperation and clash between the person who gives the perfume and the one who receives the perfume. The only way to counter the bad effect is the person who accepts the perfume, to give back to the person who gives the perfume a couple of coins. Rita replied: > > I've never heard of that superstition before. Here in USAmerica, we > have a similar superstition about knives. If someonen gives someone a set of silverware (if it's *silver*, a whole set is an *expensive* gift), the recipient is supposed to give the giver one penny for each dinner knife, butter knife, and other knife in the set. The statement reason is that if you give a knife, it will cut your friendship, so sell the knives instead. >> Valky: Maybe JKR is alluding to both superstitions in the gifts, of Sirius' and of Ron's. Sirius gave Harry a knife. I JKR were placing these superstitions in the canon as the superstitions that they represent in the real world, then it follows that we may see the worst split of Ron and Hermione yet in book 6 because sometime after Sirius gave Harry the knife their friendship was split by the pensieve scene, and Harry *used* the knife to confront Sirius with his anger. Not *definite leads* to the conclusion that the superstition holds in the Magic realm but it can be read that way. From catlady at wicca.net Mon Jul 19 05:07:01 2004 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 05:07:01 -0000 Subject: Oh my goodness, what book are THEY reading? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106839 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: << Academia is a pit full of rabid rats squalling and squabbling and only one opinion matters - their own. And none of 'em have ever written a word worth reading. >> Kneasy! Severe overgeneralization! Tolkien was an academic, C.S.Lewis was an academic, I know I could come up with more examples if it wasn't past my bedtime. From Batchevra at aol.com Mon Jul 19 05:21:22 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 01:21:22 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pureblood attitudes and the word "racism" (Was: James... Message-ID: <1d2.2637b2e7.2e2cb452@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106840 In a message dated 7/18/04 8:12:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, delwynmarch at yahoo.com writes: >Del replies : Percy was *always* presented as being wrong for being so ambitious. It was wrong for him to be so proud to be a Prefect and then Head Boy. It was wrong that he studied so much and pushed others to do the same. It was wrong that he was so strict about enforcing the rules. And so on. It was *always* wrong for Percy to be so ambitious. And pompous, let's not forget pompous, or rather let's not *forgive* pompous, should I say ;-) I mean, *honestly*, who *ever* thought that the Twins should leave Percy alone ? Who ever disagreed with their opinion of him ? Hum ? Which comes as rather ironic now, considering that we've discovered that they are just as ambitious as he is, just not in the same way. Del< I agree that Percy is pompous and that we see this through Ron and the Twins. I have two brothers, one older, one younger. Both tried to tell me what to do, and as much as we loved one another, we also got on each others nerves and bickered. Both Ron and the Twins have heard Percy on and on about how important he is, and being in the same family they liked it when he was brought down a notch. We have several pages of canon in which Harry sees how Percy acts, In PS/SS, Percy had Harry sit next to him after the sorting. In COS, it was telling, bordering on bullying Ginny to take the cold remedy, the book he was reading in the Junk shop, Hogwarts Prefects who Gained Power, and taking points from Ron. In POA, I am Head Boy, enough said. GOF, at the Quidditch match he stood for all the ministry people who came by their tents, thinking that a report on the thickness of cauldron bottoms was the most important thing, and in OOTP when he can't even visit his father in St Mungos, and his letter to Ron that certain people mean more than others, that to me is not an ambitious person, it is someone who has no morals and no loyalty towards others. That is where I find Percy at this point, and he is dangerously close to being manipulated into a source for Voldemort. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catlady at wicca.net Mon Jul 19 05:24:00 2004 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 05:24:00 -0000 Subject: TWO BUSY WEEKS worth of posts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106841 Amey wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/104641 : << (Though I received no comments on my theory of Slytherin being HBP). >> Didn't I mention, in one of my very long multi-topic posts, that while I was much impressed with the suggestion of Merlin, I consider Salazar Slytherin and Tom Riddle the most likely possibilities for HBP and adore the idea that Salazar the bigot was himself a half-blood? Sherry G wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/104762 : << I guess the question is, how does JKR feel about dogs? She *has* a dog, presumably the one in the photo on the "Extras" bulletin board on her website; her confession that Mark Evans is not important contains: "(Checks that Neil has immunized the dog, and that Jessica has packed her Gameboy, and continues.)" I imagine that her dog provided the barking heard on that site. Smart wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/104883 : << What is Neville gonna do after he graduates, and how is that going to be affected by his grade in Potions? >> A lot of people expect Neville to become a Healer, due to his kindness and his desire to cure his parents, or at least other people's parents. Other people expect him to become a herbologist because that's his best subject. It seems to me that NEWT-level Potions would be useful in both those fields, but I know of no evidence that it's required. Healers use Potions but for all we've seen in canon, the Potions they use are made by a separate profession of Potioners. Pam wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/104884 : << (Albania?--why was LV so quick to seek refuge there? >> I have a completely uncanonical theory that one side-effect of the spell that finally made LV immortal is that, whenever he is disembodied, his vapor self is pulled back to the place where he did that spell (e.g. drank that potion), which happens to be in Albania. Maybe it was an ancient Thracian spell. He can only leave that place in a body. Since canon says he wasn't living on the back of Quirrel's head until Quirrel's bank robbery failed to get the Stone, in my theory he must have been possessing some creature (maybe a rat) for it to be possible for Quirrel to carry him away. Katie wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/104950 : << will cry her eyes out if Sirius and Remus didn't have anything going on after all >> Me, too, altho' I think the bit in the Pensieve memory was Sirius *pretending* to be entirely unaware of an admiring girl. Wolves mate for life but dogs are promiscuous; Remus doesn't seem the jealous type; I believe that Sirius was very much a womanizer AND serious about Remus. I want Remus for myself and I can't have him, so I don't spare much pity for RL women who want Sirius so much that they don't want Remus to have him. Amey wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/105088 : << give me one example of Sirius being a bully, a risk to himself and others, all together, a dangerous person? >> Remember in OoP when he wanted to meet Harry in Hogsmeade? While that was a risk primarily to himself, it wouldn't have done Harry or Dumbledore or the Order any good for Harry to have been caught consorting with an escaped prisoner, nor for Sirius to be questioned under Veritaserum by Fudge's side. I'd call that Sirius wanting to be a risk to himself and others. When Harry refused, Sirius taunted him: "You're not as much like your father as I thought. The risk would have made it fun for James." That was a Snape-like statement: hurting someone with words by knowing where their feelings are vulnerable. Koinonia wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/105187 : << I think many people misunderstand some Snape fans. I would say that the great majority of us do not approve of any of the crimes you mentioned. >> I've never thought that Snape fans approve of murder, rape, torture, arson, and other DE amusements. (Other than Kneasy thinking that the fictional story gets more exciting when the bad guys do those things.) I do think that there are people in RL who have participated in some nasty things in their pasts (including murder, torture, gang rape). Sometimes somewhat under duress (clearly under duress was the soldier who voluntarily turned himself in to the War Crimes Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia, confessing that after a battle, his commanding officer had ordered him and some comrades to shoot all the prisoners they had taken, and when he protested that that was against the laws of war, his commanding officer said: "Okay, then we shoot you, too"). Sometimes under stirred up emotions, drunkenness, going along with the crowd ... ... and when it's all over (including prison time if any) and the person tries to make a civilized life with decent behavior, they remain haunted by memories of what they did ... some bury it better than others ... I'm sure Snape must have participated in murders or torture as a DE, even if he didn't have the necessary will to actually cast AK or Crucius, he could helped round up the victims, not let them escape -- surely the other DEs would have very much doubted the loyalty of a DE who objected to murdering or torturing Muggles or Mudbloods -- I think he was disgusted by it at the time and that is why he turned to Dumbledore, altho' Elkins thought he enjoyed it and gave it up out of a rigorously intellectual decision that Evil is bad ... ... anyway, I don't see why people think that Dumbledore wouldn't have taken on a repetant former murderer or torturer. DD is a *big believer* in second chances. Credit to people who already said the above: Melanie in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/105568 Alla in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/105576 Antosha wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/105197 : << UNLESS she doesn't mean a prince who is a half-blood. What the other meaning of Half Blood Prince could be, I am unsure. But could she have a different meaning altogether? Is there such a thing as a Blood Prince? There is the phrase, "a prince of the blood," meaning of the royal family. Can anyone out there come up with something else? >> In http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/104215 I suggested that a 'bionic' Prince could be described as "half blood and half steel". Perhaps there are ways he could be 'half blood and half milk' or something. Potioncat wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/105552 : << If we assume he is telling the truth that Wolfsbane is a difficult potion and that Snape is a powerful potion maker, then it does not speak poorly of Lupin that he cannot make the potion. (snip) BTW, I wonder who is making it for him now? >> My guess: Snape, irately, as one of his duties to the Order of the Phoenix. Vivian vmonte wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/105615 : << It is unusual that Snape's obstacle has to do with logic, not potions. (snip) (Or, maybe he did mean it for Hermione to solve.) >> If Snape intended it for Hermione, he must respect her mind more than he ever shows in class. Halli wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/105648 : << Well anyone could figure that out if they ever paid an inkling of attention in Herbology. And if it wasn't geared at HRH, then it was geared at an adult wizard, who would probably know this stuff anyways. >> Healer Strout, who is supposed to be educated, didn't recognize Devil's Snare. Has anyone mentioned lately that the Devil's Snare was intended for Neville the herbology student, as Dumbledore expected him to be part of the Stone group? Either DD was observing in detail and expected HRH to drag him along instead of paralyzing him, or DD wasn't observing in detail and thought it would be a Foursome rather than a Trio becasue Neville was also a prophecy boy. Huntergreen wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/105956 : << Harry only disliked Draco because he happened to remind him of Dudley. Had the Dursley's lavished as much material things on Harry as they did on Dudley, Harry might have seen Draco in a different light, and thus seen Slytherin in a different light. Then Harry would have been in Slytherin, where he doesn't belong. >> Perhaps if Harry had been coddled like Dudley, he would have become the kind of person who belongs in Slytherin ... no chivalric impulse to defend the weak or rescue people, because he has no sympathy because he had never felt troubles like theirs. Jem squeakinby wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/105978 : << Nothing left for Ron but death, the sooner the better to avoid further humilation. >> No, he should die heroically, saving Harry's life, not to avoid future humiliation, but to achieve his goal (as stated by DD in PS/SS) of doing something none of his brothers had done before him. Del wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/106178 : << The fact that Molly is so surprised when Ron gets to be Prefect shows that she *had* abandoned all hope for Ron to be the Next Perfect Weasley Boy. >> I don't think that means that Molly has given up on Ron. I think she figures that even if Ron does better in schoolwork and Quidditch than all his older brothers put together, still HARRY POTTER will get the one prefect job available instead of Ron. Sue wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/106375 : << Personally, I suspect I'd have been one of the nerds in Ravenclaw. :-) >> Once on list, maybe in 2000, someone posted something about 'everyone wants to be a Gryffindor' and I pointed out that many more listies had called themselves Ravenclaws (like me, for example), and some clever listie replied: "That's because the Gryffindors are too busy saving the world to have time to go on-line." Hickengruendler wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/106515 : << also Godric Gryffindor and Rowena Ravenclaw were biased people, who only accept the students they consider to be worthy. (snip) Gryffindor nd Ravenclaw seem to me like Snobs at best, racists at worst, who consider some people to be worthier than others. >> Just because someone is one of the four greatest wizards and witches in Britain doesn't mean they're a good pedagogue. I'm not a great witch, but I know a few things about COBOL programming, but I'm a lousy pedagogue. If I had to teach a House full of apprentices, I would have the same selection criterion as Rowena Ravenclaw did, because I had learned from experience that for me to try to teach Slow Students results in them getting confused and me getting frustrated and everyone gets unlikely and it is no favor to the students, because they don't learn from me. Del wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/106526 : << Another interesting comparison is the colours of each House. Gryffindor : red and gold Slytherin : green and silver Ravenclaw : blue and bronze Hufflepuff : yellow and black Once again, Hufflepuff stands apart. The other 3 Houses all chose a noble metal as one of their colours (aren't they the 3 metals of the medals given to the 3 winners of a sport competition ?). But Hufflepuff just took black and yellow. Nothing noble. Could it be another sign of the Hufflepuffs' humility ? They don't try to stand out, they don't pride themselves on their accomplishments, unlike the other 3 Houses. The Hufflepuffs pride themselves on doing their job as best they can. They truly rejoice when one of them gets a bit of fame, but they don't ask for that fame. >> I agree with you about the metals of the prize medals, but (as a Ravenclaw) must point out that the prize RIBBONS are 1st place = Blue, 2nd = Red, 3rd = Yellow, 4th = Green. Does Britain have that system: both the 1st and 2nd place ribbons on JKR's website are red? More important, in heraldy, Hufflepuff's yellow IS gold, as is Ravenclaw's bronze. More than Hufflepuff modesty, it seems to me to show Slytherin being odd man out. Anastasia wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/106549 : << As far as we know, there is only one curse to kill somebody - Adava Kedavra. >> I feel sure that there are lots of spells to kill someone. Howe about Levitating a Big Rock and dropping it on their head? (similar to club and troll in PS/SS). How about Summoning their heart from their chest? Throwring a big poisonous snake at them with Serpensortia? Transfiguring the walls of their aorta to thin tissue paper, or sand? From elfundeb at comcast.net Mon Jul 19 05:33:09 2004 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb2) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 05:33:09 -0000 Subject: Percy... In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.1.20040718133521.00ca1968@mail.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106842 Shannon wrote: > Percy might not know anything. Even so, > having lived with Harry, you'd think he at least knows him enough to be > able to make an independent personal assessment of whether he is unbalanced > as the Ministry accuses. No, I disagree. Harry may have spent summers with the Weasleys, but Percy spent his time shut up in his room. It's likely he did the same at Hogwarts; way back in PS/SS he had to be cajoled into spending Christmas with the family, and he didn't even stay with his family for support when Ginny was in the Chamber of Secrets. But more significantly, I think it's Percy's flaw (I almost said, his tragic flaw) is his inability or unwillingness to apply independent thinking to a situation. To him, power derives from authority, and he cannot or will not question it. As long as Crouch sent him orders, it was his duty to follow them without questioning why Crouch wasn't coming to the office or why someone so junior was left in charge. Unlike Hermione, who also arrived at Hogwarts with an unhealthy respect for authority, Percy has not learned discernment. In fact, when Harry wonders why Percy doesn't believe Voldemort is back, Hermione points out that "Percy takes the Daily Prophet seriously." Percy either naively believes that newspapers exist to expose the truth and not to sell themselves or he thinks it's his duty to support his boss' position. dcgmck wrote: > What's more, I have trouble believing that Arthur and Molly raised > Fred and George faithful to Dumbledore without having instilled > similar fundamentals in Percy. I'm not sure there's any canon to show that Arthur and Molly raised their children to be faithful to Dumbledore. For one thing, they have only recently joined the Order. They have, I think, raised their children with Dumbledore-like principles, meaning that they have taught their children to do what is right rather than what is easy. They've done this through Arthur's example -- he's been held back at the Ministry because he refused to adopt the anti-Muggle prejudices held by Fudge and others in power. Nevertheless, Percy does admire Dumbledore. From PS/SS ch. 7: "He's a genius! Best wizard in the world! But he is a bit mad, yes!" A bit mad? No wonder he's willing to believe what the Daily Prophet says! And in fact, Percy follows Dumbledore's own principles -- or at least he thinks he does. It was Dumbledore himself who rewarded Neville for having the courage to stand up to his friends, and surely Percy thinks he's doing the same in standing up to his parents. >From Percy's POV, Molly taught him respect for rules and authority, pointed him at a Ministry career, and now she and Arthur have betrayed those principles by joining the rebellion against it. Percy probably thinks he's made the "hard" choice, without ever understanding that the truly hard choice is to follow your own judgment rather than the rule someone else has laid out. > Percy's had > practice moving unnoticed, the ideal servant. We readers tend only > to see him when he's irritating us. He's kept his nose clean and his > grades up at Hogwarts, hiding in his older brothers' shadows while > looking to shine his own light. If anyone can keep track of what he > wants and believes, it should be Percy. The ideal servant . . . what a perfect description of Percy. Indeed, he once said that "[a] high-ranking Ministry official . . . deserves unswerving obedience from his servants." This statement (in ch. 10 of GoF) should perhaps have prepared us for his over-the- top behavior in OOP -- the obsequious statements about his bosses in the Daily Prophet and the letter to Ron, and the lapdog act he puts on whenever we see him on duty, is all of a piece with this. Shannon again: But > Percy, in one fell swoop, rejected an entire lifetime's worth of support, > praise, and love on the basis of one incident in which his father > questioned, not Percy's abilities, but the Fudge's motives. His reaction > seems all out of proportion to the crime, and it also speaks of a > long-simmering resentment of his family's situation, the blame for which he > places squarely on his father's shoulders (along with whatever difficulties > he's had at work). I disagree. I think Percy has historically had a difficult time at home, except for Molly's support. Molly pushed the children toward toward careers in the Ministry, even though Arthur has not been a success there, but of the younger ones only Percy bought into Molly's plan. He achieved every one of Molly's career goals for him -- every position of authority at Hogwarts, the coveted job at the ministry. And except for Molly's praise, he got nothing for his hard work at home other than ridicule from Fred and George and the big brush-off from Ron, who doesn't want to be on the wrong side of the Twins. To compensate, he took refuge in those rules, which estranged him further from his siblings. I think Percy's departure was a long time coming, and its root cause was much deeper than the family finances, or his own Ministry ambitions. That doesn't excuse his throwing back to Arthur every disparaging comment about Arthur he's ever heard at the Ministry (violating one of the cardinal rules of arguing: stick to the subject!), but the final argument is only one part of a much more complicated family dynamic. For what it's worth, I believe he still cares for his family a great deal. (If he did not care then he would not have bothered to return the jumper; the act was an expression of his hurt and anger.) But this will make it more difficult, not less, for him to reconcile. > The thing about all this is, I see no way for Percy to get out of it > gracefully. Now that the Ministry has acknowledged Voldemort's return, he > has two choices. He can either admit that Harry & Co were right all along > and he was wrong (in which case my opinion of him will raise considerably), > or he can continue to insist that they couldn't have known at the time, and > he had been right to cast his lot with Fudge and the Ministry and be > disbelieving. [snip] > I do, however, think Percy will redeem himself in some way. I have a > suspicion that it will be some grand gesture, possibly costing him his > life. I agree. It will be very difficult for Percy to admit that he was wrong, and therefore I think that in the short run he will continue to stick with Fudge while he licks his wounds. I also think that an opportunity for the grand gesture may present itself. I once suggested, pre-OOP, that the grand gesture might be in some way a reenactment of the crime of his mentor Barty Crouch Sr. -- who professed to be a great believer in following the rules -- and that the gesture would be misguided in some way with tragic results. (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/58796). Eric Oppen proposed a more dramatic outcome: > Until I hear definitely (as in from Herself herself) that Percy > turned against his family for base reasons, I shall continue to stick > to my own theory about his motivations. My theory is that he was > working for Dumbledore all the time, as a deep-cover mole, > like "Donnie Brasco" did infilitrating the Mafia. > > The thing about a deep-cover penetration is that you have to _live > the role_ nearly every waking minute of your life...you _become_ the > sort of person you're pretending to be, while never losing sight of > your ultimate, long-term goals. It's a difficult thing to do, and > most people probably couldn't carry it off. > No, I don't believe this. Percy is not a skilled enough actor to pull off an undercover act. If he could act, he would long ago have learned to mask his sensitivity to the twins' attempts to humiliate him, but he reddens far too easily to be a mole. I think he plays up to Fudge and Umbridge because his loyalty is real, if misguided. And finally, an embellishment to an old acronym: P.I.N.E. F.R.E.S.H. (Percy Is Not Evil: Floundering Royally, Ever So Hoodwinked) Debbie From danielagrtgy at aol.com Sun Jul 18 21:36:28 2004 From: danielagrtgy at aol.com (danielagrtgy at aol.com) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 17:36:28 EDT Subject: Clarification On Terminology Message-ID: <1cd.26197386.2e2c475c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106843 According to Edain McCoy in her book "A Witch's Guide to Faery Folk," a hag is the wife of an ogre which is a human-sized being of evil temperament, quite deformed and stupid. Also the ogre is of a Slavic nature as well as his wife, the hag. "danielagrtgy" From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Mon Jul 19 05:41:09 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 05:41:09 -0000 Subject: Stalagmite vs. Stalactite? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106844 Hi All, WOW, I've been busy for a few days and now I feel estranged from HPFG already! So much to catch up! Anyhoo, so I started re-reading the Philosopher's Stone for the second time (only)... and the same thing that intrigued me the first- time around made me raise my eyebrows again. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 'I never know,' Harry called to Hagrid over the noise of the cart, 'what's the difference between a stalagmite and stalactite?' [PS, 58. UK] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Now, am I the only one who feels this line is quite... out of line? This is probably the only scientific/technical term used throughout the whole book, or even HP series IIRC. And not just common technical jargons, but quite 'foreign' words with difficult pronunciation. Why did JKR bother putting this in? Is it important in any ways? Something to do with all the dungeons we see at Hogwarts and the Ministry? Any thoughts? Brenda, now hurrying to read other posts From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Mon Jul 19 05:45:44 2004 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 05:45:44 -0000 Subject: "I'm not proud of it" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106845 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Renee" wrote: > But mark that neither Sirius nor Lupin engage in blaming Harry or > pointing out he's being punished for his own fault. They see the > problem: that his image of his father as a knight without reproach > has been badly damaged, and that this hurts. So they decide to make > an attempt to control the damage and repair the image as much as > possible. Not quite. They try to put the incidence in perspective - that it was not an isolated case where the two arrogant little berks attacked a helpless Snape, but part of a pattern where Snape apparently gave as much as he got (presumably in a sneaky way). I am not trying to defend their actions - having been on the receiving end of school mates abuse I know how horrible it can be, but even in the pensieve Snape hardly acts innocently (attacks, verbally abuses Lily, etc.). > 2)Lupin: 'He was only fifteen -' > Harry: 'I'm fifteen!' > What does he mean to say - I'm fifteen, and if I know better, why > couldn't my father? Isn't that a little self-righteous, after he's > invaded Snape's privacy? (NB: I don't believe in the theory that > Snape left the Pensieve unguarded on purpose.) With both what Harry saw in the pensieve and the fact that he saw it in the first place it is important to remember the context. The incident Harry saw was the culmination of years of mutual hostility where Snape was easily as if not moreso guilty than the others. To illustrate, consider the scene at the end where the DA members and Harry perform multiple hexes and curses on Malfoy and his two mates on the train. If it were viewed in isolation, you'd have argued that it was a gross over-reaction. But viewed in light of Malfoy's behaviour during the year, it is completely understandable. Likewise, Harry's peeping in the pensieve makes sense: he has had his entire past, especially episodes he'd rather no one, let alone Snape, found out about, laid bare before Snape for months now. All along, Snape has the privilege of selecting what memories he is willing to reveal. This during occlumency lessons that seem increasingly unhelpfull and coupled with inexusable behaviour by Snape towards him during lessons (mocking him constantly and awarding him zeros left and right). I can hardly blame Harry for feeling both resentfull and curious or that he acted on that given the chance. > Compare this to his behaviour in the Shrieking Shack scene in PoA. > There, he isn't sorry at all for sending Snape straight at a raging > werewolf - 'Served him right.' Maybe the excuse in OotP isn't > entirely sufficient, but compared to no excuse at all it is a > significant improvement. In the shrieking shack Snape is viewed by the participants as an enemy. Do they even know he was on Dumbledore's side? All they know about him is that he was this Slytherin kid with whom they had so many conflicts and who associated with future DE's. In OoP they have a more balanced view of Snape (though I personally think he has a good chance to become evil again if he is not already). Let's not forget another thing that happened in the Shrieking Shack - that Snape, despite both Sirius' and Remus' protestations to his innocence and offers to have it proved, was all set up to have Sirius delivered to the dementors regardless of any proof to the contrary and was willing to let them kill Sirius in the most horrendous way imaginable because of a childhood grudge. Is it a wonder that Sirius still hated him (and vice versa) in OoP? > 4)Lupin and Sirius fondly reminiscing. The weakest part in their > reaction, but only to comprehensible to me - we've got two damaged > men here, who are reminded of the only happy period in their lives. Not so. They have known James for over 10 years until his death. From the viewpoint of people in their mid to late thirties, who have both been through hell since, James' showing off at 15 seems as sweet and innocent as a 5 year old telling us he can do anything. Moreover, they have known James for many more years until his death and know that this was only a passing stage. > 5)The outcome of this conversation. My impression is that Sirius's > and Lupin's attempt at damage control succeeded fairly well. Harry > seems to - reluctantly - accept their reaction. He doesn't dwell too > much on his fathers shortcomings in the rest of OotP, nor does the > affair keep him awake. Another important outcome of this I think was the change of Sirius's and Lupin's attitude towards Harry. In this scene it was as if Harry was the moral judge and both adults were struggling to justify their actions and obviously shamed by them. I think it made them both, and especially Sirius, have a lot more respect and love for Harry as a person in his own right, and no longer just their best friend's son. I am sure we would have seen this in his attitdude had he lived. Salit From ariston3344 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 22:54:38 2004 From: ariston3344 at yahoo.com (ariston3344) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 22:54:38 -0000 Subject: Oh my goodness, what book are THEY reading? In-Reply-To: <40FAAA71.8060902@tds.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106846 Tammy Rizzo wrote: > In the NY Times today (I subscribe to the email highlights, not the > paper itself), in the Arts section, is this article, 'Harry Potter, > Market Wiz', translated from a french article published over there > last month. Here is the link (it might require a free registration > for you to read it): > > http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/18/opinion/18YOCA.html?th squeakinby replied: > Thanks for pointing that out! Boy, it was my laugh of the day. > One at first thinks he didn't read the books but of course, he > must have because he got the names right. ariston3344: I actually suspect that he didn't read all of the books, or at least that he didn't read them very carefully. In fact, he might have only read the beginning of GoF and then OotP. This might explain why he mistakently believes that: a) Percy is unintelligent; b) Cedric is weak; c) there is a competition among "schools" to win the "Goblet of Fire"; and d) Dumbledore "constantly" is at loggerheads with the government. I don't see how you could believe (a), (b), or (d) if you had read books 1-4 in their entirety. And (c) is simply incorrect. Schools vie (through their champions) for the Triwizard Cup, not for the Goblet of Fire. (Nobody ever "wins" the Goblet of Fire -- it just chooses the school champions.) This wouldn't be the first time a reviewer has failed to pay careful attention to (and probably failed to really understand) what he or she was reviewing, but I'm afraid it probably won't be the last, either... -ariston From dontask2much at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 23:51:35 2004 From: dontask2much at yahoo.com (charme) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 19:51:35 -0400 Subject: Charm (sic) Protection Theory; Was (Re: James gave his life) References: Message-ID: <081401c46d22$295c3180$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> No: HPFGUIDX 106847 Valky: > Hi Charme, I did a little hunting and I have discovered that the > almond shape has actually a *lot* of pagan/celt (ie witches and > wizards) significance. > > The almond shape is formed by the overlapping of two circles and is > a hugely universal symbol in mysticism. > > It has been more recently adopted as a christian symbol of christ, > but it also relates to cabbalistic mysticism as well as pagan (and > others according to these resources I investigated). > > It is called, apparently according to the resource that I have, the > Mandorla, a latin word for almond and one thing it signifies is a > Halo. > > Are Lily's eyes something like angels? Whatever they are the almond > shape definitely denotes that they are in some way sacred or holy. Charme: Ask for obsessive loony-ness, and it shall be delivered :) I stumbled across the following from a role playing site: High elves are the most populous race of elves and are similar to humans in many regards. They are tall and slender in build (6 feet or more in height). Their skin is fair of complexion, compared to typical caucasian skin hues. Their hair is usually blond (75%) but there are some black (10%), brown (10%) and red (5%) colored ones but these are rare. Their eyes are a little larger than a human's and almond shaped. The high elves favor pets such as felines, elven felines, elven dogs or hunting falcons. ...and then I found this from a Tolkien site: "Their eyes are more 'almond' shaped, though not completely, and tend to be of the normal colors, as well. Remember, however, that those Elves who lived in Aman could have more unique eye color, due to the influence of the Light of the Trees." And believe it or not, there's more. :) References to elves date back to ancient Egypt (City of the Elf God, an Egyptian myth/legend translated from Sacred Texts), as Hermione states in her letter to Harry on his birthday that ancient Egyptian magic was "fascinating." Convenient, isn't it, that JKR saw fit to send the Weasleys to Egypt? The Eye of Horus, an almond shaped eye easily recognized even today, is also said to be a powerful amulet of protection and healing. (Uncannily enough, the color green is also said to signify healing and rest.) Now I'm REALLY intrigued... Charme From dontask2much at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 01:00:12 2004 From: dontask2much at yahoo.com (charme) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:00:12 -0400 Subject: Pureblood attitudes and the word "racism" (Was: James the Berk?) References: Message-ID: <000601c46d2b$bfc13c70$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> No: HPFGUIDX 106848 > Del replies : > You might think so, but not everyone has to agree. Not that I like > Bella and really care about why she does what she does, but I disagree > with a general statement that we don't need to know. Charme: I don't think I stated anywhere that anyone had to agree with me; I merely stated I agreed with Alla. > I also disagree with a general statement that everyone liked Sirius. I > loved him in PoA, I liked him OK in GoF, and I strongly disliked him > in OoP. I for one am *not* sorry he's gone. Charme: I'm not sorry or otherwise; there seem to be a great deal of folks, including JKR herself, who are sorry he did have to die. > Del replies : > But DD's choices contradict his words. He says we can make the right > choice no matter what, and *at the exact same time* he makes the wrong > decision *because* of his feelings for Harry. In the very same > discussion at the end of PS/SS, he emphasizes the importance of > choosing AND he makes the wrong decision of not telling Harry the > whole truth because he loves the boy. > > I say : actions speak louder than words. JKR is showing us that > *nobody* can escape their emotions. Even someone as old and wise and > experienced as DD *repeatedly* (year after year for 4 years) made the > very same wrong decision because of his emotions. It tells a lot indeed. Charme: While I sort of agree with you there, I also believe that DD understands and admits his mistake. Admitting you made a mistake for what you preceived as the right reason (the "I cared more for your happiness" line) and learning from it is apparently, in my view, something other characters in the book are sometimes unable to do. The phrase that comes to mind is "the road to hell is paved with good intentions," doesn't it? > Del replies : > Just because you think we shouldn't think of the Potterverse as a > mirror of real life doesn't mean others can't do just that. I have > several ways of looking at the HP books, and the most serious one does > indeed include making hypotheses based on a combination of canon, > logic and fact. > You on the other hand are totally entitled to counter my logic with a > statement that you see the Potterverse as exclusively fantastic. We > would both be right. Charme: I don't believe I said anyone shouldn't think of Potterverse in the manner in which they chose - I was expressing my opinion same as you? Let's make sure my comments are taken in the proper context by some explanation, shall we? Anyone who wants to relates this to real life in some fashion can; all art and creative prose is rooted in someone's or society's experience or perception. The entire Harry Potter series is subject to JKR's views, beliefs, and experiences, not to mention the influence by other authors, myths, legends and history. I've done the canon/logic/fact in other posts (I have a problem with the word "fact" since what we're reading is an imaginary world, but I'll go with it for now), however I do manage to throw some humor in there: it shows I both am interested (seriousness) and I'm not obsessed with my own view so much that I can't leave the door open (humor) to change my mind after reading info from someone else. > Del replies : > Not all emotions are fun ! In fact, if it were just for the fun, I > don't think there would be hardly *any* passionate discussions on this > list ! Lots of joke and silliness, but hardly any serious debate. For me it is a hobby - and for me to have fun at my hobby no matter how serious the subject, a little humor is definitely my style :) You can blend both and be quite effective at developing a debate, although I daresay that when emotions run high a few I've seen here, email or a newsgroup is a hard way to do it. :) Cheers! Charme From dolis5657 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 01:35:09 2004 From: dolis5657 at yahoo.com (dcgmck) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 01:35:09 -0000 Subject: The Potion Puzzle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106849 "dcgmck" wrote: > > Davewitley's analysis of Snape's potion puzzle in the first HP > > (see "Files",) draws an insightful parallel between the bottles > > and the positions of a Quidditch team. > > > > "It is interesting to note that one bottle, the smallest, of the > > seven goes forward (Seeker), one goes back (Keeper), and two, > > including the largest, stick close to the other three (Beaters). > > It's harder to equate the three poison potions with Chasers." Valky: > LOL No it's not! ROFL! oh shees, I can't stop! > > Um.... this is Snape's puzzle right? > > And James was a Chaser. > > Chaser and Poison.. James and Poison.. James and BANE OF MY > EXISTENCE!!! Please explain "ROFL" and indicate where JKR says that James was ever a Chaser. I was under the impression from Snape's pensieve memory that James was also a seeker in his time. "dcgmck" From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Mon Jul 19 06:18:05 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 06:18:05 -0000 Subject: The Potion Puzzle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106850 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dcgmck" wrote: > Please explain "ROFL" and indicate where JKR says that James was ever a Chaser. I was under the impression from Snape's pensieve memory that James was also a seeker in his time. > > "dcgmck" ROFL is Rolling on Floor laughing and JKR tells us James was a chaser in an interview you'll find here http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2000/1000-scholastic- chat.htm towards the bottom of the page. Valky From jacobalfredo at hotmail.com Mon Jul 19 02:00:17 2004 From: jacobalfredo at hotmail.com (albusthewhite) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 02:00:17 -0000 Subject: Oh my goodness, what book are THEY reading? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106851 Wow, what an interesting article - and equally interesting responses. Seems like some are reacting to the level of competition at Hogwarts - which really is cutthroat. But without that competition, that deeply ingrained conflict, the story wouldn't be nearly as compelling. When I was a kid in school, there really were self-imposed divisions between the students, cliques and groups and whatnot, and the rivalry between them seemed intense at the time. I think that's why the HP books are so popular with kids - the rivalry between Harry and Draco, that stark black and white/good and evil division, this really reflects the way kids process social life. As the author of the article in question points out (albeit with questionable evidence at times), the books really are steeped in capitalist rhetoric and methodology, and I don't know how to explain it. The function of money, to use just one example, is so very important in the books. Perhaps this is related to JKR's financial situation (and its fluctuations) while writing these books. But there are other cultural values that are also an inherent part of the HP world. My favorite is the amount of meat, particularly processed meat, that these kids consume. There are so many references to sausages, bacon, blood puddings and other meat products - probably because traditional English food is so heavily dependant on the stuff. (Not that we Americans don't love a good steak!) Hardcore vegetarians should be appalled! Harry and Ron ought to have their cholesterol checked! :) Of course I'm (mostly) kidding - my point is that while our political values are very important, and while we absolutely *should* examine our literature, cinema, etc. to see what kind of political messages they contain (for they all have some political statement), we should also be sophisticated enough to disengage from that discourse in order to enjoy some world-class storytelling. AND we should be able to read and understand criticism of those books and films, even when we disagree with them, without resorting to brutish bullying (as seen in certain anti-French, anti-academic remarks). Albus the White From tinainfay at msn.com Mon Jul 19 02:24:38 2004 From: tinainfay at msn.com (mrs_sonofgib) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 02:24:38 -0000 Subject: 'Police' in the WW? (was Re: How did Sirius lure Severus into the Willow?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106852 > Mel wrote: > we have YET to see any form of "police" whatsoever and I'm > willing to bet if we did, Dumbledore would trust them about as far > as he trusts anything else Government Related. > > This begs the question, just who/what ARE the 'police' in the WW? > Aurors? I doubt it, they seem more of a special forces sort of > thing--SWAT at the very least. I don't think they're handing out > tickets for Apparating without a license. Well, there is a Department of Magical Law Enforcement headed by Amelia Bones (formerly headed by Crouch, Sr.) but we haven't heard much from them. There was a mention of Hit Wizards (PoA Am HB p 208, Chapter 10) from the Magical Law Enforcement Squad. That's about all I've got on WW police. And yes, I think the Aurors are in that Dept (same floor anyway in the MoM). ~tina From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Mon Jul 19 06:32:58 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 06:32:58 -0000 Subject: Stalagmite vs. Stalactite? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106853 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brenda M." wrote: > Hi All, > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > 'I never know,' Harry called to Hagrid over the noise of the > cart, 'what's the difference between a stalagmite and stalactite?' > [PS, 58. UK] > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > > Now, am I the only one who feels this line is quite... out of line? Is it important in any ways? > Something to do with all the dungeons we see at Hogwarts and the > Ministry? > Valky: Hi Brenda, No indeed you are not the only one who is interested in this. Now you've brought it to my attention, I am too. Maybe the significance is not in the question but the answer. Hagrid says "Stalagmites got an 'm' in it" Now is this just a bit of humour or does it have a deeper meaning. What are some m words that may be relevant: Muggle, Magic, Mother, Mudblood... any more? Now the mites are the cave floor bound formations that travel upward toward the ceiling. Ok so if it is, at all, a relevant clue to *anything* we will be able to parrallel it with something that contains M.....? climbing upward. Stalagtites and stalagmites are just stone formations created by gradual deposits of lime etc. hmm deposits in a bank double meaning of lime is green... sorry, I am going nowhere here.... Anyone else? From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 06:35:38 2004 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 23:35:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "I'm not proud of it" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040719063538.14311.qmail@web53406.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106854 Anastasia wrote: If Ginny was compared to Mrs Weasley, I would think more about her caring for others than her habitude of shouting if there's anything wrong. When you love somebody you see his best sides, not his worst. Especially if this person has died several years ago. Therefore, it is only natural that Sirius and Lupin talk affectionately about James, most of us would wonder if they didn't. They were like brothers! Additionally, we don't know how much James has changed after that Pensieve scene. After all, it was enough to become Head Boy. Could you imagine Lily dating James if he hadn't changed? My reply: No Lily wouldn't have given James the time of day, much like she is doing in this scene. She is disguested by his affections. Teenages as much as you all would hate to admit otherwise do change, I think often it happens when something life altering happens. I don't know what this could have been for the marauders but it is likely that something did happen. And in regards to Lily do you honnestly think she would appoint Sirius guardian of Harry if he hadn't changed either? ~Melanie --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jlawlor at gmail.com Mon Jul 19 04:53:59 2004 From: jlawlor at gmail.com (James Lawlor) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 23:53:59 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Oh my goodness, what book are THEY reading? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96773c8804071821545f5391ae@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106855 Andrew: > I'm sorry, but it is sometimes hard for us poor Americans to see how > much better the French culture, and views on Harry Potter are than > ours. James: Del never said "better", just "different". :D Anyway, as not to make this too horrendously offtopic, I'll agree that the French article (which I've seen before, I think) is pretty off-base and it seems to me that the author is reading into things a bit much to try to make a political statement. - James Lawlor, who would hate to think of letting something like political subtext ruin his enjoyment of a good book From asperia_aspen_again at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 03:12:27 2004 From: asperia_aspen_again at yahoo.com (Rebecca) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 03:12:27 -0000 Subject: The Potion Puzzle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106856 Valky wrote: > Um.... this is Snapes puzzles right? > > And James was a Chaser. > > Chaser and Poison.. James and Poison.. James and BANE OF MY > EXISTENCE!!! This works out fine, except for one thing: James Potter was a Seeker (like his son Harry) and not a Chaser. In the infamous "Snape's Worst Memory" scene we see James snatching at a snitch, and always catching it, the implication being that he was indeed very *very* fast with his wand, probably faster than Snape. Snitch-snatching seems an odd avocation for a Chaser. Besides, I'm pretty sure that in PS/SS we're told, by means of Minerva McGonegall or through some other agency, that James Potter was a Seeker of rare gifts. (Sorry I can't back that up with a quote right at the moment, but I believe this happens soon after Harry and Draco have their airborne dogfight over Neville's Remembrall.) "Rebecca" From doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 05:38:05 2004 From: doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com (doddiemoemoe) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 05:38:05 -0000 Subject: "Prince" in HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106857 Angel wrote: > When everyone is guessing which boy/man the "Half Blood Prince" > is referring, my question is - how come a prince emerges? I am sorry for adding something else, but it has been plaging me all day... the HBP may also be Victor Krum....(would add to reason why the English WW has not heard TOO MUCH about him/been a topic of the books); despite the prevalence of him being an international quidditch player who is ALSO a student in school just like them. It may also be the reason why Victor's headmaster (sucked up to him so.....could it be because he was MORE than an international quiditch player) Also, Hermione is still writing to Krum in OOP, yet she really isn't a quiditch fan is she?!?!?!? So why continue to write him..we do not see Harry nor Ron writing FLEUR. Nor, do we see Fleur corresponding with either Harry or Ron...(So why would Hermione maintain correspondence with Krum?).. I do not believe she has a crush or a "romantic liking" of Krum....She's to testy with Ron regarding this aspect. Matter of fact, she doesn't ever confess any sort of romantic feelings for Krum either. Sheesh, wouldn't struggling to delve clues from the title of the sixth book been a great deal easier if it was to be titled the {"Half Blood PRINCESS" rather than the "Half Blood PRINCE"?!?!?!? Even Ron, at the end of GOF wanted Krum's signature, despite his jealousies. Doddie From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Mon Jul 19 07:01:09 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:01:09 -0000 Subject: The Potion Puzzle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106858 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Rebecca" wrote: > Valky wrote: > > Um.... this is Snapes puzzles right? > > > > And James was a Chaser. > > > > Chaser and Poison.. James and Poison.. James and BANE OF MY > > EXISTENCE!!! > > Rebecca: > This works out fine, except for one thing: James Potter was a Seeker (like his son Harry) and not a Chaser. Valky: You know whats sad about this? That everyone is missing the joke. Its hilarious! Here is this major formulaic model of the series carefully drawn for us ingeniously recreated in miniature by JKR brilliant that she is, and she still has time and energy left over to slip in Snape's grudge in full colour and with a witty bite to it. I simply have to herald JKR's excellence, she never fails to impress me. James was a CHASER! yes he was! If you don't believe me, look it up! and then, finally, allow yourself to revel in the supreme quality of JKR's work. Nevermind the movie blot, I wish I knew why or how that silly line got into the film anyway. From omphale at onetel.com Mon Jul 19 07:12:00 2004 From: omphale at onetel.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:12:00 -0000 Subject: Oh my goodness, what book are THEY reading? In-Reply-To: <96773c8804071821545f5391ae@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106859 OK, having read all the posts so far, I'm not going to directly quote everyone, but I do find the whole thing quite interesting. I agree with Del, that this is a great French pastime - a good argument, and to some extent I agree with the author of the article, and I'm English. My heart has sunk on quite a few occasions during the books, notably - the introduction of prefects: I hate the notion of children policing children, and the blatant conferring of favour and power for conforming to what the system wants you to be. Secondly, my heart hit rock bottom (and this one could be controversial to some of my British contributors, :-)) when I learned the title of the next HP - Oh JKR did you HAVE to bring royalty into it!!! The books are very conformist in their stance, but this is a world that children have come to expect to find in literature. This is a value system which goes way back into the last century. I love the HP books, not for their politics (which I find dubious at times) but for JKR's storytelling ability and the element of suspense and mystery. For the non-conformist, there is always the balance of Philip Pulman's 'His Dark Materials', which are wonderfully subversive. Lastly, a note about public/private/state schools. Hogwarts must be a state school (funded and regulated by the government) as the Ministry is able to send in its representative (Umbridge) to control it. Now unless the wizarding world is a dictatorship - which we know it isn't - that would not be possible. There might be a confusion of terms here - in Britain, public schools (Eton, Harrow etc) are privately owned, and extremely expensive and elitist. Who knows where the money comes to keep Hogwarts running - but I doubt the Weasley's could afford to keep four of their children at the school at the same time if they had to pay school fees. Saraquel From MadameSSnape at aol.com Mon Jul 19 08:38:37 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 04:38:37 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clarification On Terminology Message-ID: <29.5c8c780f.2e2ce28d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106860 In a message dated 7/19/2004 1:43:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, danielagrtgy at aol.com writes: Also the ogre is of a Slavic nature as well as his wife, the hag. ========================= Sherrie here: Oh, yes - the classic representatives of the fairytale versions of the hag are the Wicked Queen in Snow White, and the Russian Baba Yaga, with her hut on chicken's legs. Sherrie "Unless history lives in our present, it has no future." PRESERVE OUR CIVIL WAR BATTLEFIELDS! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MadameSSnape at aol.com Mon Jul 19 08:44:04 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 04:44:04 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Potion Puzzle Message-ID: <77.2e823992.2e2ce3d4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106861 In a message dated 7/19/2004 2:43:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dolis5657 at yahoo.com writes: Please explain "ROFL" and indicate where JKR says that James was ever a Chaser. I was under the impression from Snape's pensieve memory that James was also a seeker in his time. ============== Sherrie here: JKR specifically stated that James was a Chaser when asked in one of her webchats - IIRC, it's one of the Barnes & Noble chats available at the Scholastic website. The Seeker idea is movie contamination. Sherrie "Unless history lives in our present, it has no future." PRESERVE OUR CIVIL WAR BATTLEFIELDS! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MadameSSnape at aol.com Mon Jul 19 08:48:40 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 04:48:40 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Potion Puzzle Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106862 In a message dated 7/19/2004 2:46:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, asperia_aspen_again at yahoo.com writes: Snitch-snatching seems an odd avocation for a Chaser. Besides, I'm pretty sure that in PS/SS we're told, by means of Minerva McGonegall or through some other agency, that James Potter was a Seeker of rare gifts. (Sorry I can't back that up with a quote right at the moment, but I believe this happens soon after Harry and Draco have their airborne dogfight over Neville's Remembrall.) ============ Sherrie here: Nope - that's strictly movie contamination. The only Seeker Minerva mentions in the book is Charlie Weasley. JKR has stated flat-out that James was a Chaser. Sherrie (who's had this argument a gazillion and three times with kids on the AOL boards!) "Unless history lives in our present, it has no future." PRESERVE OUR CIVIL WAR BATTLEFIELDS! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From theadimail at yahoo.co.in Mon Jul 19 09:32:21 2004 From: theadimail at yahoo.co.in (theadimail) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:32:21 -0000 Subject: Oh my goodness, what book are THEY reading? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106863 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "saraquel_omphale" wrote: For the non-conformist, there is always the balance of Philip Pulman's 'His Dark Materials', which are wonderfully subversive Well, my heart hit the rock bottom when I read Pullman. To make two thirteen year old children walk through hell so that the adults might be saved from their 'conformism', there is nothing more disgusting than that. Yeah, all the adults are brainless idiots or zombies and taken over by the Authority and only two kids whose vision is unclouded or untainted can open their eyes to the reality, isn't it? There is even something paedophilic about the way Pullman treats the children. Rowling is not a conformist. And even if she were, I'd take her anyday than that humourless, overblown idiot called Philip Pullman. Bye Adi From paul_terzis at yahoo.gr Mon Jul 19 09:36:07 2004 From: paul_terzis at yahoo.gr (paul_terzis) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:36:07 -0000 Subject: The unusual Gift? SHIP:Hermione's feelings for Ron in OotP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106864 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > Paul Terzis wrote: > > I have to add something else to the conversation. I am not quite > > familiar with the superstitions of your countries. But here in > > Greece we avoid to give perfume as a present to people we care and > > love. It symbolizes seperation and clash between the person who > > gives the perfume and the one who receives the perfume. The only way > > to counter the bad effect is the person who accepts the perfume, to > > give back to the person who gives the perfume a couple of coins. > > Just for info!!! > > Del wrote : > Yo, Paul, you're getting me horribly worried ! My husband offered me > perfume after the birth of our son ! He's not from my culture, so > maybe I should check ? > > Lol ! No, honestly, I'd never heard of anything like that before. > > snip > > OK, OK, enough silliness, all right :-) > > Paul replies: There is no reason to take everything so seriously. My post has nothing to do with the future of the series. I just mentioned an unusual superstition - custom of my country in order to lighten the heavy atmosphere that we the shippers created the last months. It is a hilarious supestition but then again any supestition in general is hilarious. Del, I consider you a friend of mine. And one who has a lot of passion, there is no doubt about that. I am not offended by your post but please try to cool down a bit. After all we are all friends here and we all want to have some fun. So lets all "smoke" the pipe of peace like the American Indians and resume the endless journey of HP series thorough analysis. Cheers, Paul From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Jul 19 10:12:56 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:12:56 -0000 Subject: Oh my goodness, what book are THEY reading? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106865 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "albusthewhite" wrote: >Snip> > Of course I'm (mostly) kidding - my point is that while our > political values are very important, and while we absolutely > *should* examine our literature, cinema, etc. to see what kind > of political messages they contain (for they all have some > political statement), we should also be sophisticated enough to > disengage from that discourse in order to enjoy some world-class > storytelling. AND we should be able to read and understand > criticism of those books and films, even when we disagree with > them, without resorting to brutish bullying (as seen in certain >anti-French, anti-academic remarks). > I agree with you in part - but where to draw the line? HP is not a political tract; though it's possible - as evidenced by the posts made to this site - to find characters or passages that support or oppose your personal philosophy or world view. No problem. However, I for one get twitchy when a non-reader (obvious from the poor grasp of what HP is about) uses it to promote a political stance. That is not literary criticism, it's polemics. Fictional HP is being press- ganged as the vehicle for advocating a Real World agenda. It is the other end of the spectrum to the far right religious fundamentalists - "It's evil; it glorifies witchcraft.". There's a deal of difference between a review that says "Disappointing; poorly visualised characters, weak plot, predictable finale. Not recommended," and one which effectively says "This book promotes capitalism, therefore it is no good." JKR writes a good tale; engaging, detailed and intriguing. Strictly speaking by literary standards her prose leaves something to be desired; it's not top flight. So what? Only nit-pickers care about that. Hopefully we the readers take a more relaxed view. Most of us accept that the plot and characters require a background (the Potterverse) which is traditionally English and a generation or two out of date when compared with current educational fashions. Hardly a cause for concern. I'm not about to engage in political analyses of HP; seems pointless. For those that wish to subsume a fantasy tale into their political manifesto to serve their own limited ends I offer a favorite quote of mine: "Forgive him Caesar - he is a barbarian and considers that the customs of his tribe are the laws of nature." G.B.Shaw, "Caesar and Cleopatra." Kneasy From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Mon Jul 19 10:58:13 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 19 Jul 2004 10:58:13 -0000 Subject: Dudley Demented (???) Message-ID: <20040719105813.1815.qmail@webmail9.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106866 I was reading OOtP for some nth time for clues for HBP and came across this: He had run barely a dozen steps when he reached them: Dudley was curled up on the ground, his arms clamped over his face. A second Dementor was crouching low over him, gripping his wrists in its slimy hands, prising them slowly almost lovingly apart, lowering its hooded head towards Dudley's face as though about to kiss him. (Dudley Demented, OOtP) "Arms clamped over his face"??? Why? How should he know that the Dementor is going to kiss him? From what he says later, he didn't see the dementor, then how does he know to cover his face??? Any thought anyone??? Amey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From paul_terzis at yahoo.gr Mon Jul 19 11:02:53 2004 From: paul_terzis at yahoo.gr (paul_terzis) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:02:53 -0000 Subject: Book 6 question: Who will be the mentor for Harry ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106867 Dear friends, thank you very much for your replies. I agree with you. Dark arts are unacceptable. But our hero is not currently in the best emotional state. He is very troubled and confused. I don't remember exactly the quote from OOTP but I think that even HP said to AD that he didn't have the skills to match LV. So HP might reach Dark arts in order to find more skills. This is not something unusual, especially for a teenager. Dark side is always alluring in matters of great need for power. Another thing now. I 've never said that HP needs only the unforgivable curses. Sometimes to know the enemy's ways is the best strategy to beat him. Any thoughts? Cheers, Paul From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Mon Jul 19 11:21:44 2004 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:21:44 -0000 Subject: Just wondering Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106868 This is probably not the right place to put this post but .... I just wonder. Not too long ago there was a thread on homosexuality in HP and in general. The thread was taken off the list because (as I was told in a private email by my elf) it was not canon talk. Why then is it allowed to keep posting on the French article-thing and discussing political stuff that happens to be no more canon than the gay thread? I noticed in some of the posts here that some people took the political discussion to a level of "French Besserwisser vs Stupid Americans". Im Danish and as such not involved with either - but I find it rather offending to have to read that sort of stuff on the HP- board - as it is totally non-canon - when my own personal view on homosexuality in the books wasn't allowed. Why not ask members to keep those political grumbling posts private as well? Inge From editor at texas.net Mon Jul 19 11:43:46 2004 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 06:43:46 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Just wondering References: Message-ID: <000a01c46d85$ac8fce00$a358aacf@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 106869 Not speaking officially; just from long list experience, and hoping to clarify. Elves, I invite correction if my understanding is incorrect. Inge: > I just wonder. Not too long ago there was a thread on homosexuality > in HP and in general. The thread was taken off the list because (as I > was told in a private email by my elf) it was not canon talk. I have not been paying close attention. But to my knowledge, the thread wasn't "taken off." The focus was clarified. This is my understanding: (1) Discussions of homosexuality in general--statements of personal background and experience a la "qualifications" to discuss the subject, position statements, etc.--that was what I think was discouraged. (2) Actual analysis of the canon in terms of homosexual themes, overtones, hints, etc.--that is perfectly acceptable here. This can be a fine line and difficult to distinguish sometimes. I know that in the past, listmembers have run an "advance copy" of a post past the list administration to help clarify which side of the "canon line" it fell on, maybe you should do something similar? Threads do just get talked out, too. Sometimes the list, collectively, tires of one subject and focus shifts. If you hang about long enough, I guarantee you'll see threads repeat, as new members come in or new thoughts occur. > Why then is it allowed to keep posting on the French article-thing > and discussing political stuff that happens to be no more canon than > the gay thread? > Why not ask members to keep those political grumbling posts private > as well? Understand: even if every person who has posted on a certain thread has been sent a huge howler that flamed and swore--the list at large will not know this. As you yourself have experienced, discussions with posters about the appropriateness of a post take place "offscreen." I have no idea if the posters to which you refer have been contacted. But I do know that if they have, it would not be something the rest of the list would generally know about. As to your actual question? I can't answer; and as you suspected, this isn't really the place to ask. That would probably be a list elf. ~Amanda From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jul 19 11:57:04 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:57:04 -0000 Subject: Re James the berk and Lily the angel In-Reply-To: <20040718084039.24362.qmail@web25301.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106870 > Udderpd > > From the first time I read the Snape Pensive scene I have fhought that it was a set up. > > Snape put that particular memory in the pensive in order to discredit James in Harry's eyes. He then had Draco call him out so that Harry (being typical Harry) would view the memory. > > Subsequently Malfoy never once mentions remedial Potions and that in itself is strange. > Potioncat: But Snape was called out for a real emergency. The boy who had been put in a vanishing cabinet had reappeared stuck in a toilet. (Yes, it's funny when it happens to a Slytherin, but wouldn't have been if it had been a Gryffindor.) It is sort of odd that we don't see Malfoy taunting Harry...no one else ever seems to mention it either. Of course the other characters who think he has remedial potions, respect Harry for his other skills. Potioncat > > > > > > > > > ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > > Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From n2fgc at arrl.net Mon Jul 19 12:16:35 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 08:16:35 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Stalagmite vs. Stalactite? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106871 From: M.Clifford | Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 02:33 | --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brenda M." | wrote: | > Hi All, | > | > ------------------------------------------------------------------- | --- | > 'I never know,' Harry called to Hagrid over the noise of the | > cart, 'what's the difference between a stalagmite and stalactite?' | > [PS, 58. UK] | > ------------------------------------------------------------------- | --- | > | > Now, am I the only one who feels this line is quite... out of | line? Is it important in any ways? | > Something to do with all the dungeons we see at Hogwarts and the | > Ministry? | > | | Valky: | Hi Brenda, | No indeed you are not the only one who is interested in this. Now | you've brought it to my attention, I am too. | | Maybe the significance is not in the question but the answer. | Hagrid says "Stalagmites got an 'm' in it" [Lee]: Isn't it possible that the question is simply a normal juvenile curiosity question? Sometimes, methinks we want to read too much into every little line rather than just looking at context, i.e. Harry's young, curious, probably overwhelmed at what he's seeing, and the question sounds like something a kid his age would ask. Cheers, Lee :-) Do not walk behind me, | Lee Storm I may not care to lead; | N2FGC Do not walk before me; | n2fgc at arrl.net (or) I may not care to follow; | n2fgc at optonline.net Walk beside me, and be my friend. From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Mon Jul 19 12:41:16 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:41:16 -0000 Subject: Stalagmite vs. Stalactite? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106872 ------------------------------------------------------------------- > | --- > | Harry called to Hagrid over the noise of the cart, 'what's the > | difference between a stalagmite and stalactite?' > | > [PS, 58. UK] > | > --------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > Brenda: > > Is it important in any ways? > | Valky: > | > | Maybe the significance is not in the question but the answer. > | Hagrid says "Stalagmites got an 'm' in it" > > [Lee]: > Isn't it possible that the question is simply a normal juvenile curiosity question? Sometimes, methinks we want to read too much into every little line rather than just looking at context, i.e. Harry's young, curious, probably overwhelmed at what he's seeing, and the question sounds like something a kid his age would ask. > > Cheers, > > Lee :-) > Aha Lee, that we most certainly do, but.... My experience tells me not to disregard any minor detail that JKR might toss in inconspiciously, for The Great Lady is reknowned for turning precisely this into the most elaborate of plot thickeners. Heres to a thorough dissection and extrication of EVERY single line JK ever wrote from its context for profound examination by HPFGU! I am sure it has something to do with deposits........ Best to all.... ..........in madness and obsession with detail. Valky From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jul 19 12:43:52 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:43:52 -0000 Subject: Phineas Nigellus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106873 Catlady wrote: > Now that I'm caught up on list (I've read 1800 posts this weekend), I > want to join with the people who said that the dear old Headmaster's > name was Phineas Nigellus Black, and he was known by his two given > names, as some people are. Back then, I looked the names, and Phineas > is King James Bible spelling of Pinhas (also spelled Pinehas) which is > a Hebrew named that drived from the Ancient Egyptian name Pa- Nehasi, > which means Nubian (as we might name a kid Dane or Scott). And > Nigellus is a Latinization of the (Irish IIRC) name Neil, but it has a > history of people thinking it was derived from Latin word 'niger' > which means 'black'. So his name was Black Black Black, close enough > for a JKR joke. > Potioncat: I like your list of definitions for Phineas Nigellus. But my dictionery says Phineas is Hebrew for Mouth of brass and probably was a title for an oracular priest. Both definitions fit this character very well with JKR's methods. BTW, wasn't the real Lucius Severus Nubian? Potioncat (another cat trying to catch up this weekend!) From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jul 19 13:04:39 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:04:39 -0000 Subject: Snape's logic & Houses was Re: TWO BUSY WEEKS worth of posts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106875 Catlady responded to several posts: > > Vivian vmonte wrote in << It is unusual that Snape's obstacle has to do with logic, not > potions. (snip) (Or, maybe he did mean it for Hermione to solve.) >> >Catlady: > If Snape intended it for Hermione, he must respect her mind more than he ever shows in class. Potioncat: I think he does. Particularly as he acknowledges (with sarcasm of course) that she has helped Neville correct potions. And I would think he expected her to be the to discover Lupin's secret. He was probably expecting her to tell the boys. > Sue wrote in << Personally, I suspect I'd have been one of the nerds in Ravenclaw. > :-) >Catlady > Once on list, maybe in 2000, someone posted something about 'everyone wants to be a Gryffindor' and I pointed out that many more listies had called themselves Ravenclaws (like me, for example), and some clever listie replied: "That's because the Gryffindors are too busy saving the world to have time to go on- line." Potioncat: I suspect that each student thinks his House is best. And probably sees the negative aspects of the other Houses. A brave Hufflepuff may see himself as a loyal, brave person and be glad that he is not reckless like a Gryffindor. (For example.) From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Jul 19 13:04:48 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:04:48 -0000 Subject: Charm (sic) Protection Theory; Was (Re: James gave his life) In-Reply-To: <081401c46d22$295c3180$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106876 Charme: ...and then I found this from a Tolkien site: > > "Their eyes are more 'almond' shaped, though not completely, and tend to be > of the normal colors, as well. Remember, however, that those Elves who lived > in Aman could have more unique eye color, due to the influence of the Light > of the Trees." > > And believe it or not, there's more. :) References to elves date back to > ancient Egypt (City of the Elf God, an Egyptian myth/legend translated from > Sacred Texts), as Hermione states in her letter to Harry on his birthday > that ancient Egyptian magic was "fascinating." Convenient, isn't it, that JKR > saw fit to send the Weasleys to Egypt? The Eye of Horus, an almond shaped > eye easily recognized even today, is also said to be a powerful amulet of > protection and healing. (Uncannily enough, the color green is also said to > signify healing and rest.) Jen: Hey Charme--your theory gets better & better! RE: the almond- shaped eyes. Prior to thinking Lily's blood was somehow significant, (beyond the blood protection I mean), my thought was her almond- shaped eyes were the 'important thing' we learned about Lily in Book 5. The only other reference of almond-shaped eyes is the Sphinx in GOF! Thinking about the significance of Lily and the Sphinx, I wrote post #104425, with a couple of interesting tidbits. First, JKR's words from FBAWTFT: "The Egyptian Sphinx has a human head on a lion's body. For over a thousand years it has been used by witches and wizards to guard valuables and secret hideaways. Highly intelligent, the sphinx delights in puzzles and riddles. It is usually dangerous only when what it is guarding is threatened." That last part certainly holds true for Lily, eh? Voldemort got more than he bargained for when he faced her! On an astrological note, the great Sphinx at Giza is thought to have been built as the earthly counterpart to the constellation Leo, heralding the birth of the Sun (son) in Leo. Don't know if this is where JKR is going, but the imagery is interesting. So, I'm thinking after reading your post today that it's not an either/or proposition: The *very* significnat thing we'll learn about Lily in Book 7 could be her origin, which will explain the significance of both her blood and her almond-shaped eyes. That would make me sooo happy, but I'm not certain that's JKR's primary concern . Jen Reese From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Mon Jul 19 13:07:30 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (wickywackywoo2001) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:07:30 -0000 Subject: In defense of considering pureblood preference racism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106877 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Nora Renka" wrote: > Howdy ho, folks. Lots of interesting posts on this, so I'm going to > make my own consolidation. > > The key thing here is that while everyone in the WW has a certain > attitude towards Muggles, excepting such visionaries as Flamel and > DD, both of whom love classical music (opera and chamber music--opera > is by far the more interesting of the two because it is an urban > art); and this view is that nothing Muggles do is really worthwhile. > I don't need to repeat comments about Arthur's patronizing attitudes. > I've just never gotten the impression that Arthur is being patronizing when he interests himself in Muggle inventions and traditions. He seems to me very clearly to be in the line of English enthusiasts. He reminds me a bit of Mr. Pickwick; Muggledom seems to be a great adventure for him, and he's like those eccentric Englishmen who get a deep satisfaction out of what other people see as prosaic and uninteresting junk (trainspotters, for example). He's an amateur, going back to the original meaning of the word, one who does something purely out of love. I expect that's why he went into his present line of work, because it allows him access to something that interests and delights him. He's not debating which way of life he wants to adopt, and why should he? He's not a Muggle - he's always going to be 'outside' that world, but I see his interest and enthusiasm for Muggle artifacts to be rather charming. As a Muggle myself, I'd never be offended by someone else trying to learn about my life; it might even make me appreciate it more, as what has become ordinary and dull to me is regarded as fresh and exciting by someone else. Wanda From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 13:17:52 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:17:52 -0000 Subject: Let's burn down the Houses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106878 I, Del, wrote : > I think it's high time someone takes the decision to burn down the > Houses and rebuild a new system based on something arbitrary, like > putting the (new !) names of the 4 Houses in that stupid Hat and > having the students pick one blindly, for example." Meidbh answered : > Hmmm. Homogenise Hogwarts. Whatever would the founders say? Del replies : Nope, quite the opposite in fact. It's the Houses as they are now which are too homogenised. I want to break that homogeneity. The 4 Houses would be much more identical, sure, but inside they would be ripe with much more differences than they present now. Meidbh wrote : > The Houses provide a substitute for the family (these are children > after all) and most family members share a certain common view of > the world. Del replies : I disagree strongly on both points. IMO, the Houses are not supposed to substitute for the kids' family in any way (where are the parents ? Are Snape and McGonagall supposed to be substitute parents ?), and family members can be as diverse as it comes (Percy and the Twins ?) Meidbh wrote : > It's probably quite a good idea to put children who are > likely to have a lot in common into the same Houses - it is after > all their home for most of the year. They should still find more > than enough challenges to their worldviews during the years they > spend in the school. Del replies : I agree on the concept. But I strongly oppose the way that concept has been put into practice at Hogwarts. Slytherin House in particular is simply *wrong*. Those kids are put together *precisely* because they are prejudiced, attracted to the Dark Arts and/or too consumed by their ambition to keep it in check. Too many of them were raised in families that steered them on dark paths, and when they come to Hogwarts, they are grouped together in a House that will only encourage them even further on those dark roads. And *yet* they are nonetheless *expected* to come to the realisation that those paths are wrong !? On their own, and against everything they've always been taught !? At the risk of losing their friends and enraging their families !? I'm sorry, but I call that *cruel* and *irresponsible*. Meidbh wrote : > While the concept of competition between Houses could be seen as old > fashioned, the idea of four Houses each with it's own distinct > personality is timeless. We all want choice, to be able to choose > the philosophy under which we or our children are educated. In the > wizarding world there is only one place to go to school in Britain > (as far as we know). It is probably a very good thing that within > that school there are some choices. Each with its own flavour. Del replies : Yes, I understand and I agree with that *in theory*. But when one of the flavours is Dark Arts, I don't think the choice is healthy. If I had 4 kids and someone offered them free ice-creams but I was told than one of the kids *will* end up with an ear wax flavoured ice-cream, I would simply *refuse* the offer. Meidbh wrote : > A far more intersting question is what happens if you enter school > with the heart of a Slytherin and then change? Can you then change > Houses? Del replies : Another question is : why would a Slytherin have a change of heart to start with ? Take Draco for example : raised in the Dark Arts, and Sorted in a House that doesn't mind them. Why should he ever come to realise that he's had it wrong all his life ? Why should he suddenly start doubting his 3 most important authority figures : his parents and his Head of House ? Meidbh wrote : > It's the Slytherins in life that give Gryffindors the opportunity to > be courageous! We need them :-) Del replies : Well, that's *precisely* what irks me : it looks exactly as though Hogwarts was growing those little Slytherin pests just so that the good Gryffindors (and others) could show up. After all, if Snape and Draco had been Sorted into Gryffindor instead of Slytherin, they would most probably not have become as insufferable as they did, and they wouldn't have been such good arch-enemies to James and Harry, right ? It stinks. IMO. Del From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jul 19 13:17:09 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:17:09 -0000 Subject: "I'm not proud of it" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106879 Renee wrote: > > > Compare this to his behaviour in the Shrieking Shack scene in >>PoA. There, he isn't sorry at all for sending Snape straight at a >>raging werewolf - 'Served him right.' Maybe the excuse in OotP >>isn't entirely sufficient, but compared to no excuse at all it is >>a significant improvement. Salit wrote: > In the shrieking shack Snape is viewed by the participants as an > enemy. Do they even know he was on Dumbledore's side? All they know > about him is that he was this Slytherin kid with whom they had so many conflicts and who associated with future DE's. In OoP they have a more balanced view of Snape (though I personally think he has a good chance to become evil again if he is not already) Potioncat: Lupin should have known. He'd worked with Snape all year. Snape has suspected Lupin of helping Black and now it appears to Snape that it was so. Keep in mind that at this point, Snape has every reason to think that both Black and Lupin are criminals. Salit: > Let's not forget another thing that happened in the Shrieking >Shack - that Snape, despite both Sirius' and Remus' protestations >to his innocence and offers to have it proved, was all set up to >have Sirius delivered to the dementors regardless of any proof to >the contrary and was willing to let them kill Sirius in the most >horrendous way imaginable because of a childhood grudge. Is it a >wonder that Sirius still hated him (and vice versa) in OoP? Potioncat: Looks like Snape and Black both have good reasons to continue to dislike each other. But let me point out, when Snape had the chance to turn Black over to the Dementors, he didn't. So while he threatened it, he didn't do it. > From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Jul 19 13:19:06 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:19:06 -0000 Subject: Dudley Demented (???) In-Reply-To: <20040719105813.1815.qmail@webmail9.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106880 Amey: > I was reading OOtP for some nth time for clues for HBP and came across this: > > He had run barely a dozen steps when he reached them: Dudley was curled up on the ground, his arms clamped over his face. A second Dementor was crouching low over him, gripping his wrists in its slimy hands, prising them slowly almost lovingly apart, lowering its hooded head towards Dudley's face as though about to kiss him. (Dudley Demented, OOtP) > "Arms clamped over his face"??? Why? How should he know that the Dementor is going to kiss him? From what he says later, he didn't see the dementor, then how does he know to cover his face??? Jen: Well, Harry tells him a few pages earlier, in no uncertain terms, "DUDLEY, KEEP YOUUR MOUTH SHUT! WHATEVER YOU DO...." (OOTP, US, chap. 1, p.17). I do think he listened to and believed Harry in this situation, despite telling his parents later that Harry was to blame. He surely heard the total fear in Harry's voice and even Dudley probably recongnized, like Harry, that Harry wasn't powerful enough to block the stars, moon, etc. His blame of Harry was a cover for whatever bad memory was revealed to him--he knows blaming Harry is a surefire way to get Vernon & Petunia sidetracked from questioning him. Jen From silmariel at telefonica.net Sun Jul 18 13:23:50 2004 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (silmariel) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 15:23:50 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dudley Demented (???) In-Reply-To: <20040719105813.1815.qmail@webmail9.rediffmail.com> References: <20040719105813.1815.qmail@webmail9.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: <200407181523.50491.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 106881 Amey: > "Arms clamped over his face"??? Why? How should he know that the Dementor > is going to kiss him? From what he says later, he didn't see the dementor, > then how does he know to cover his face??? > > Any thought anyone??? (Bloomsbury) Page 22 : "Dudley was curled up on the ground, his arms clamped over his face" Page 21 : "DUDLEY, KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT! WHATEVER YOU DO, KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT!" I think he got the idea from Harry. Carolina From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 13:38:35 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:38:35 -0000 Subject: Oh my goodness, what book are THEY reading? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106882 I, Del, wrote : > You'd be amazed at the number of things we might see differently just > out of different cultural backgrounds. I spent 10 months in > English-speaking Canada, and went on vacation for a few days in the > States. The cultural differences between France and both Canada and > the States were nothing short of amazing. Andrew, the self-described stupid American, replied : > I'm sorry, but it is sometimes hard for us poor Americans to see how > much better the French culture, and views on Harry Potter are than > ours. Del replies : WHAT ???? No Andrew I don't believe you *are* stupid, neither you nor anyone else, just because you happen to be American. And I sure don't think that JKR is stupid either, just because she was born in the UK. But you sure *acted* stupidly on that one. My English might not be perfect, but I at least know the difference between "different" and "better". Re-read my post, especially the paragraph you quoted, and tell me where *ever* I said that French is better than American !! If I *really* thought that American and British people are stupid and don't understand what the HP books are about, I wouldn't be *here* discussing them : I would discuss them on my own French group, with fellow French "enlightened" people. Del, who hopes the Elves won't mind her answering on-list, because this one *really* hurt. From ms-tamany at rcn.com Mon Jul 19 13:51:42 2004 From: ms-tamany at rcn.com (Tammy Rizzo) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:51:42 -0400 Subject: The One Simple Answer To All Our Questions (well, sorta) Message-ID: <40FBD1EE.5020409@rcn.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106883 Well, to all the plotholes we've found, at least. And all the niggling little inconsistancies we find in the Potterverse, and the questions about how things actually work and why, and all that stuff. It's really very, very simple. Honest and truly, and it doesn't have a shred of conspiracy anywhere. Jo didn't expect *US*. When she first started writing, she was good -- very good, obviously -- but she was still basically a beginner. Plotting seamless, tight stories is a skill that takes practice, and she's been getting better and better with each book, but the whole point is, she didn't expect *US*, our hyperanalyzing, our latching onto the slightest whiff of a clue, our endless debates on just who Mark Evans is, etc. She was just telling her story in the best way she could; it was inevitable that there were some small inconsistancies. I don't think *anyone* could have predicted *US*, though! Can you imagine the pressure we're putting on Jo now, to get every single datum absolutely correct or see us fighting over the discrepancies? Now, I'm not saying we should stop our hyperanalysis, absolutely not! It's making Jo a better writer! Besides, it's fun to lurk around here and pick through the theories and essays and whatnot. It's very instructive, as well, especially for a worldbuilder like myself -- I'm seeing things brought up here for discussion and debate that remind me that my own world still lacks such depth of detail. Sometimes, it can be enough to just show how a thing (like microwaves or magic) impacts one's daily life, but sometimes, too, it's necessary for the author, at least, to know practically every facet of a thing so that her writing has that seamless background we all crave. Tolkien pretty much managed that, but it took him fifty years to do it. Jo's building a simpler world, an overlay onto our own, rather than a complete and whole underpinning of our own, but there are still systems and details in place that it seems that she has not thought out completely. Or rather, that she *had not* thought out completely when the books were just starting, and hadn't realized that we'd end up picking apart. I think it might be that, sometimes, in the heat of battle (so to speak), some of us might lose sight of that little point. Worldbuilding is an incredibly difficult task, after all, and whether she realized it or not, that's what she's been up to in telling Harry's story. She's been building a world for us to play in, but one that missed a few details at first and now she's stuck with them. Hmm. It appears I've started rambling, so that must mean I've come to my point and passed it, backed up and missed it, gone past it again, turned around and come at it another way and passed it again. I might never get there if I don't stop now. ;-) Thanks for listening! -- *** Tammy Rizzo ms-tamany at rcn.com From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Mon Jul 19 13:54:27 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:54:27 -0000 Subject: Stalagmite vs. Stalactite? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106884 -------------------------------------------------------------- 'I never know,' Harry called to Hagrid over the noise of the cart, 'what's the difference between a stalagmite and stalactite?' [PS, 58. UK] -------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Now, am I the only one who feels this line is quite... out of > line? Is it important in any ways? > > Something to do with all the dungeons we see at Hogwarts and the > > Ministry? > > > > Valky responded: > > Maybe the significance is not in the question but the answer. > Hagrid says "Stalagmites got an 'm' in it" > Now is this just a bit of humour or does it have a deeper meaning. > What are some m words that may be relevant: > > Muggle, Magic, Mother, Mudblood... any more? > > Now the mites are the cave floor bound formations that travel upward > toward the ceiling. > > Ok so if it is, at all, a relevant clue to *anything* we will be > able to parrallel it with something that contains M.....? climbing > upward. > > Stalagtites and stalagmites are just stone formations created by > gradual deposits of lime etc. > hmm deposits in a bank double meaning of lime is green... > sorry, I am going nowhere here.... Brenda now: Excellent point, Valky!! Didn't even think of that! In addition to "Muggle, Magic, Mother, Mudblood..." I can think of (or read from Lexicon site): *Spell Name -- Memory Charm, Messenger Spell, Muggle Repelling Charms *Incantation -- Mobiliarbus, Mobilicorpus, Morsmordre(!!!!!) *Items/Places -- Marauder's Map, mirrors, (St.)Mungo's, Moon(!?) *Potion/Ingredient -- Mandrake, monkshood, moonstone, Mrs. Scower's Magical Mess Remover, mimbulus Mimbletonia *Characters -- McGonagall, Malfoy, Moony, Marvolo... And what was the name of potion that healed Harry's bloody hands from Umbridge's detention? Murtrap something? That was my first thought. Oh wait, before I get too carried away -- but your point was that something with 'm' will be important but the one without 'm' will have different effect... Well then I must restrain my fingers and think harder... Brenda From ms-tamany at rcn.com Mon Jul 19 14:01:31 2004 From: ms-tamany at rcn.com (Tammy Rizzo) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:01:31 -0400 Subject: Statute of Secrecy Message-ID: <40FBD43B.9060300@rcn.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106885 Ariston writes: So since there must be an exception to the Statute of Secrecy for immediate family, why would the MoM bring up violation of secrecy as part of the charges against Harry? And why is it not mentioned, as part of Harry's defense, that the only Muggle witness (Dudley) was in his immediate family? Now I (Tammy) reply: That's a very good question, isn't it? If it were anyone BUT Harry Potter, that would be an extremely good question. Why would the MOM bother with someone performing magic in front of immediate Muggle family who already knew about the WW? There'd be no reason to, you're absolutely right, Ariston. However, the whole thing with Harry here is that Fudge was after him to discredit him, to get him out of sight, out of mind, out of the awareness of the WW, because Harry just wouldn't shut up about Voldythingy being back. If it takes a 'fair trial followed by a real nice hanging' to get what Fudge needs, then so be it. He wasn't out for truth or justice, he just wanted Harry out of the way. He'd made that so clear to his fellows that Umbridge acted on her own to assure that Harry would be out of Cornelius' hair -- forever. Makes me wonder if she's got a picture of Fudge at her bedside or something . . . smeared with pink lipstick . . . eurgh. *shudder* -- *** Tammy Rizzo ms-tamany at rcn.com From silmariel at telefonica.net Sun Jul 18 14:10:44 2004 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (silmariel) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 16:10:44 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Percy, Percy, Percy (was Re: Percy Weasley and "Donnie Brasco") In-Reply-To: <200407180432.22808.silmariel@telefonica.net> References: <200407180432.22808.silmariel@telefonica.net> Message-ID: <200407181610.44092.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 106886 silmariel wrote: > I suggested redemption for Percy or Percy!Spy in post number 80213 "Percy's > Letter". There's even a reply from Eric, number 85242, in wich he agrees. > You might find it an interesting thread. > > Carolina Replying to myself, yes, on rereading my post I feel it can be read that I was the original poster of those ideas, which I was not, of course, I just was discussing Percy's letter and letting others do whatever they wanted with that canon, but the post left opened possibilities for both. That said, having done the descent into Yahoomort searching for my post, I found quite a number of interesting Percy threads. Here are some links, included the one to mine. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/67125 From: "corinthum" Subject: TBAY OOP: Percy is a PERFECT TARGET http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/69878 From: B Arrowsmith Subject: TBAY - PEPPERMILL http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/70090 From: "Lliannanshe" Subject: Percy a DD Spy in the Ministry / S.U.P.I.N.E http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/80213 From: Carolina Subject: Percy's letter http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/80912 From: "hermionegallo" Subject: Percy (Was: "What's Arthur been up to") http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/80946 From: "klaustininia" Subject: Undercover Percy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/80982 (This reply isn't threaded to the above one and had replies so I provide the link) From: "Deirdre F Woodward" Subject: Re: Undercover Percy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/85169 From: "ghinghapuss" Subject: Percey Weasley under Lucius' Imperius Curse? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/88447 From: "Steve" Subject: Ron is like Percy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/93403 From: "pippin_999" Subject: The Podmore Connection--Percy as DD's Spy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/97645 From: "delwynmarch" Subject: Percy is a true Weasley (very long) Any Percy interested listie might want to have a look at those. Carolina From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Mon Jul 19 14:12:02 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 14:12:02 -0000 Subject: Malfoy gold In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106887 >>> Catlady wrote: I feel certain that Lucius Malfoy inherited his wealth, and he doesn't > have to do any work except to manage his money. I fantasize that the > ancestors of the Malfoys were already sitting pretty when the Romans > came to Britain, but continued to increase their fortune since then. > Early sources would include charging Muggle villages a large annual > tax not to destroy them, conquering other wizards and confiscating > their property, selling spells to rich Muggles, finding desposits of > metal ore and other valuables and mining and processing them with > slave or House Elf labor or by spells. > Medieval sources would include owning large amounts of land and either farming it by slave or sharecropper labor and selling the produce, or > renting it to non-slave farmers, and selling exotic foreign luxury > goods (e.g. spices, silk, Oriental carpets) that could be imported > much more easily by magic than by Muggle means. Modern sources would > include being a venture capitalist or loan shark. > > I can easily imagine that Lucius Malfoy owned a broomstick company (owned it, not managed it) and offered to his competitors to buy them out at a ridiculously low price, and when they refused, somehow their > factory, family home, and family members were all laid to waste with > the Dark Mark glowing over the ruins... > The broomstick factory, incidentally, could employ a number of parents > of Hogwarts students, such the careful, hardworking Hufflepuff who > individually hand-ties and charms each twig, and the obsessed > Ravenclaw who invents the improved versions of the charms, and the > inventory manager who notes how fast the wood, twigs, feathers, string, polish, sandpaper, and all are being used, and orders more in > time that the store room won't run out. > Some of those early sources of wizarding wealth would account for the > hostility of Muggles toward wizarding folk, such as Binns mentioned during the Founding of Hogwarts: "it was an age when magic was feared by common people, and witches and wizards suffered much persecution." <<< Brenda now: Hmm, haven't thought about it that way before, but I like your theory very much. Even now (with all the Muggle-protection laws and such) wizards don't seem to have deep understanding/liking for Muggles, I can only imagine what they did back in the days. But I can't see Malfoy owning the broomstick company, though I know you only suggested it as one of possibilities. Does this mean Malfoy would have had collaboration/ business relation with the creator of the Golden Snitch, the resident of Godric's Hallow? That I can't see happening... Or what if they were engaged in illegal activities, like organized crime Mafia Molfoy family that manufactured illegal potion ingredients and Dark magical items... [of couse no canon to support this whatsoever, that I can think of... except for that Secret Chamber of Malfoy's] Brenda From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 14:16:17 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 14:16:17 -0000 Subject: Pureblood attitudes and the word "racism" (Was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: <000601c46d2b$bfc13c70$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106888 Charme wrote : > I don't think I stated anywhere that anyone had to agree with me; I > merely stated I agreed with Alla. Del replies : Yes, but by agreeing with Alla, you were automatically disagreeing with me :-) I *cannot* let such a deep and outrageous offence go unpunished, I'm sure you can understand that :-) ? I, Del, wrote that I wasn't sorry Sirius died and Charme answered : > I'm not sorry or otherwise; there seem to be a great deal of folks, > including JKR herself, who are sorry he did have to die. Del replies : Now, if we all loved the same characters, it wouldn't be fun, would it ? Honestly, I can understand why people are sorry he had to go. I would have been too, if Sirius hadn't been grating on my nerves all book long. I, Del, wrote : > > I say : actions speak louder than words. JKR is showing us that > > *nobody* can escape their emotions. Even someone as old and wise > > and experienced as DD *repeatedly* (year after year for 4 years) > > made the very same wrong decision because of his emotions. It tells > > a lot indeed. Charme answered : > While I sort of agree with you there, I also believe that DD > understands and admits his mistake. Admitting you made a mistake for > what you preceived as the right reason (the "I cared more for your > happiness" line) and learning from it is apparently, in my view, > something other characters in the book are sometimes unable to do. > The phrase that comes to mind is "the road to hell is paved with good > intentions," doesn't it? Del replies : I'd say : give them time. It took DD FOUR YEARS to finally admit he'd made one mega-huge mistake. And his decision was challenged 3 times in the meantime. Not to mention that we don't know that he would have revealed the truth to Harry if he hadn't been forced to by Harry discovering the existence of the Prophecy. So I guess other characters, younger, less experienced characters, can be given quite some time to realise and admit their own mistakes. Charme wrote : > I've done the canon/logic/fact in other posts (I have a problem with > the word "fact" since what we're reading is an imaginary world, but > I'll go with it for now), however I do manage to throw some humor > in there: it shows I both am interested (seriousness) and I'm not > obsessed with my own view so much that I can't leave the door open > (humor) to change my mind after reading info from someone else. Del replies : I can be extremely tenacious as long as nobody finds the right words to convince me, but once they get through to me, I have no problem changing my mind. So I wouldn't describe myself as "obsessed", even though I might look like it sometimes :-) And I simply *love* humour. I wish there was more of it on the list. But I guess the main problem is that using humour is not easy to do without veering off-topic very quickly. Humour is a great tool to discuss stuff, especially when mixed with seriousness. And it's also a great stress relief tool :-) Del From tzakis1225 at netzero.com Mon Jul 19 14:41:16 2004 From: tzakis1225 at netzero.com (demetra1225) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 14:41:16 -0000 Subject: "I'm not proud of it" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106889 > Salit: > > Let's not forget another thing that happened in the Shrieking > >Shack - that Snape, despite both Sirius' and Remus' protestations > >to his innocence and offers to have it proved, was all set up to > >have Sirius delivered to the dementors regardless of any proof to > >the contrary and was willing to let them kill Sirius in the most > >horrendous way imaginable because of a childhood grudge. Is it a > >wonder that Sirius still hated him (and vice versa) in OoP? > > Potioncat: > Looks like Snape and Black both have good reasons to continue to > dislike each other. But let me point out, when Snape had the > chance to turn Black over to the Dementors, he didn't. So while he > threatened it, he didn't do it. Demetra: What a mass of contradictions both Snape and Sirius are. Let's not forget another thing that happened in the Shreiking Shack - both Sirius and Lupin were prepared to execute Peter, and I think they would have if Harry had not stopped them. Sirius points out in GoF that he was sent to Azkaban without a trial. But weren't he and Lupin acting as judge, jury and executioner with Peter? Not that the little turd didn't deserve it, but if Sirius and Lupin had succeeded both Sirius and Peter would have been denied the right to present a defense. I can accept that after 12 years in Azkaban Sirius would want his revenge on the rat. I have more trouble with Lupin in this scene (and I LOVE Lupin, he is one of my favorite characters). As the more cerebral of the two, I wonder why he was so willing to kill Peter vs. turning him over to the authorities. From quigonginger at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 14:43:14 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 14:43:14 -0000 Subject: Let's burn down the Houses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106890 > Del wrote: > I disagree strongly on both points. IMO, the Houses are not supposed > to substitute for the kids' family in any way (where are the parents ? > Are Snape and McGonagall supposed to be substitute parents ?), (snip) Ginger adds: I'm afraid I must disagree, if I understand what you are saying. McGonagall tells Harry's class, right before they are sorted, that "while you are here, your house will be something like your family within Hogwarts." Heads of Houses act as the parents. I know the legal term for that is something like "in loco parentis". Sorry if I got that wrong. If you meant that they were not supposed to *replace* the family, then I agree with you. They are a "family away from family", so to speak. The Heads will never replace the parents as those one can go to for anything, but are only there for big things. Otherwise the Heads would have no time to teach :o) (snip a lot more) I would also like to add that the house system does help make kids a bit more comfortable upon arrival. They know they will be with people like them. That is usually a big worry about starting a new school. What will the other kids be like? Will they like me? Will I fit in? Just the psychological aspect of the sorting would give relief. Knowing that there are others who are brave, or ambitious, or loyal, or smart (or whatever- I'm still miffed about the "I'll take the lot" thing. As though we were rubbish! I'm a 'Puff, can you tell?) It's also much less traumatic to have to become roomies with 4 other kids rather than 40 (give or take). Getting to know people takes time. I remember at camp, we were split into 6 groups. We got to know our group, and then branched out to get to know the others through mutual friends (siblings, returning campers, those who knew each other in RL). It was much easier than having to remember 60 or so names at once. In the part I snipped (which I did due to length, not due to content. I assure you it was well put) Del expressed concern about kids sorted into a highly prejudiced atmosphere in Slytherin. I have to agree on that point. Ginger, who rather likes the house system From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 14:47:00 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 14:47:00 -0000 Subject: The unusual Gift? SHIP:Hermione's feelings for Ron in OotP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106891 Hi Paul ! You wrote : "There is no reason to take everything so seriously." I'm sorry, I realised only when re-reading it later that my post came out as serious, when it was supposed to be exactly the opposite. When you mentioned that superstition, I just suddenly had this image of my sweet husband offering me that perfume not as a "congratulations" or "thank you" gift, but as a curse for landing him with a baby :-) It was so *hilarious* I couldn't imagine anyone wouldn't see it that way. I'm really sorry. You wrote : "Del, I consider you a friend of mine." Huh, thank you ! "And one who has a lot of passion, there is no doubt about that. I am not offended by your post but please try to cool down a bit. After all we are all friends here and we all want to have some fun. So lets all "smoke" the pipe of peace like the American Indians and resume the endless journey of HP series thorough analysis." Er, I don't smoke ;-) And again I'm sorry : yes I was passionate on that one, but only in a *funny* way for once. The images your post had awakened in my mind had put me in a highly joking mood, hence the crazy suppositions about how Ron got the perfume. I was *joking*, even though it might not look like it. Though I *do* wonder how he got that perfume ! Peace, Del From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Mon Jul 19 15:00:27 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:00:27 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Charm (sic) Protection Theory; Was (Re: Jame s gave his life) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106892 Stephen King, who reviewed OoP (he loves JKR, and has used the "Golden Snitch" in his Dark Tower series,) chided her somewhat for her overuse of adjectives in her writing. Anyone got any ideas? charme gina: Ever read or listened to his book "On Writing" he HATES adjectives! He goes on and on about how that are just not as good as a more forward/firm sentence. Of course he is a writing master and they all have their pet peeves (pun intended). If JKR knows this she could possibly avoid using them unless they are necessary. I can see the letter now "Sorry Steve! I know you hate them, but they are important to the plot - bare with me!) Maybe it is just that this is her first big series and she has not left the adjective nest yet - who knows? Gina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Mon Jul 19 15:13:37 2004 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 15:13:37 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "I'm not proud of it" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106893 Demetra said: >I can accept that after 12 years in Azkaban Sirius would >want his revenge on the rat. I have more trouble with Lupin in this >scene (and I LOVE Lupin, he is one of my favorite characters). As >the more cerebral of the two, I wonder why he was so willing to kill >Peter vs. turning him over to the authorities. Well, I would say that neither Sirius nor Lupin have any reason to turn immediately to the authorities as a source of justice. Sirius was railroaded into jail by the authorities, specifically the Ministry of Magic. Lupin is a constant victim of anti-werewolf prejudice which, if it isn't officially ensconced in wizard laws (cf Umbridge), is not in any way addressed by any of the authorities we have seen, and is probably shared by them. Also, both of them have reason to think that the Ministry of Magic is mostly incompetent even when it means well. All this adds up to "if you want something done right, do it yourself." Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 15:17:43 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 15:17:43 -0000 Subject: Two weeks worth... DD's curious timing in SS/PS & OOTP... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106894 CatLady wrote: Healer Strout, who is supposed to be educated, didn't recognize Devil's Snare. Has anyone mentioned lately that the Devil's Snare was intended for Neville the herbology student, as Dumbledore expected him to be part of the Stone group? Either DD was observing in detail and expected HRH to drag him along instead of paralyzing him, or DD wasn't observing in detail and thought it would be a Foursome rather than a Trio becasue Neville was also a prophecy boy. vmonte responds: Now this is interesting! DD's plan originally included Neville as part of the group?! I've often heard HP fans complain about how easy the obstacles in the SS/PS were. If 11-year-old students were able to pass through, then someone like Voldemort would have had no problem-- right? I think that DD knew that Voldemort was going to get through--no matter what. His failsafe was the mirror of erised, which he knew Voldemort would not be able to trick. IMO the obstacles were geared for HRHN (thanks to Catlady, I've added Neville). DD intended for Harry to get through with the help of his friends. He definitely planned for Harry to get to the mirror of erised, or why else would he explain to Harry how it worked?! We also know from canon that he was observing Harry carefully, since he knew what Ron and Harry had seen in the mirror. We also know that Hermione bumped into DD after she left Harry to confront Voldemort (this is when Hermione goes to get wounded Ron). DD looks at Hermione and says something like: "He (Harry) went after Voldemort right?" This leads me to believe that DD planned for the events to unfold the way they did. *** Although I think he miscalculated the time the events were going to unfold. *** DD's leaving and return to the castle is curious to me. What exactly was he doing before he decided to turn around and check on Harry? There is another strange moment like this during Harry's trial in OOTP: Page 139, U.S. version -- "Ah," said Fudge, who looked thoroughly disconcerted. "Dumbledore. Yes. You--er--got our--er--message that the time and--er--place of the hearing had been changed, then?" "I must have missed it," said Dumbledore cheerfully. "However, due to a lucky mistake I arrived at the Ministry three hours early, so no harm done." It's obvious that Fudge never sent an owl to Harry or DD. But DD's comment is curious? I don't think that he is lying; I think DD actually made some kind of mistake (with time?). What would make someone get to a place earlier than expected? Floo powder, apparaiting, riding animals, motorcycles, and flying on a broomstick would not get you to a destination 3 hours early (unless you left 3 hours early). How about if it's a miscalculation with time? What if DD is traveling via some other method, a method that needs to be precisely calculated. A method that can propel you forward or backward, but if your not careful miscalculations can occur. Vivian From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Mon Jul 19 15:19:15 2004 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 15:19:15 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Neville, the Frog Prince Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106895 Lori Beth Kruse asked: >Neville has Trevor. The other kids have animals like >Hedwig, Crookshanks, Pigwidgeon and Scabbers. (I don't >remember the names of anyone else's pets). Trevor is a >(fairly common?) boy's name. The others, well, don't >seem to be human names at all (or at least first >names!) Could this mean something? Hedwig is the name of several Eastern European saints and queens. I don't know if it means anything, but Krum is from Bulgaria, and Voldemort has an Albanian connection ... Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ From tzakis1225 at netzero.com Mon Jul 19 15:19:30 2004 From: tzakis1225 at netzero.com (demetra1225) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 15:19:30 -0000 Subject: Let's burn down the Houses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106896 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: > Another question is : why would a Slytherin have a change of heart to > start with ? Take Draco for example : raised in the Dark Arts, and > Sorted in a House that doesn't mind them. Why should he ever come to > realise that he's had it wrong all his life ? Why should he suddenly > start doubting his 3 most important authority figures : his parents > and his Head of House ? > Demetra: At the risk of making a "me too" post, I completely agree with Del. I question the practice of taking children who have been raised with a set of beliefs (however twisted those beliefs might be) and put them in a house comprised of others who have been raised with the same beliefs. Not to mention that members of the other houses are suspicious of them and inter-house cooperation is not exactly encouraged. Where would these kids ever learn about other viewpoints so that they could have a change of heart? The books stress the importance of choice, but to choose to reject one way of thinking, you have to be exposed to and understand a different way of thinking. I don't think that can be accomplished by sharing a couple of classes with another house. I do hope that we find out in later books that Snape is doing something behing the scenes to discourage the Slytherins from following the DE path, because otherwise I think that those kids were shortchanged by the whole sorting system. From quigonginger at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 15:22:20 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 15:22:20 -0000 Subject: "I'm not proud of it" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106897 I'm not really replying to any one person, I just wanted to add a thought. Harry is seeing the scene fresh. (Freshly?) It is all new to him, and he is still trying to take it all in. Remus and Sirius are seeing it as something that happened 20+ years ago. They don't have the intensity that Harry does. I saw James and Sirius picking on Snape as not being all that horrible. Bad, yes, but I have had worse bullying aimed at me. I am not trying to defend them or to start a thread about how bad it actually was. My point was that it was 20+ years ago, and that is how Sirius and Remus are seeing it. As I said, I had worse bullying aimed at me. I look back now, at around the same age that Remus and Sirius are, and quite a bit of it now seems funny. That's why I can see Sirius' reply of "I'm not proud of it" at face value. He admits to having been an idiot and a berk, and he has accepted that that is what he was at 15. He is no longer 15. (He may act like it at times, but that's another thread.) He has had 20+ years to think about it, in which time he may well have said to himself, "Good heavens, I was an idiot and a berk!" But that revelation is no longer new, hence his seemingly placid attitude. RL example: When I was in first grade, I called the superintendant an old silly. I was so embarrassed and mortified by the terrible thing I had done (kids just didn't show a lack of respect for their elders in that time and place, no matter how old or silly they were) that I didn't want to ever go to school again. I wanted to move out of the state. I wanted to go back to Canada. If you were to call me on it now, I would say "I'm not proud of it. I was an insufferable little brat." But I can't help but snake my head and smile when I say it. Not because it wasn't wrong, but because it was 30+ years ago and I have changed greatly since then. Now I no longer insult my elders. But I must have looked really stupid. I think that's how Remus and Sirius were thinking when they were talking to Harry. Try remembering something bad you did when you were a kid that wasn't a capital crime, and see if you don't think you were an idiot. You may turn red-faced in shame, but you will also note to yourself how you have changed since then, and see the kid that did it as a somewhat different entity than yourself. Did that make any sense? Ginger, adding the caveat that all of the above is just opinion. There is no canon to back it up. Any and all who read this are entitled to their own opinions, pro or con, and have every right to feel, believe, think, and post accordingly. This is intended to be an alternate perspective, and is not the only one. Those who hate Sirius and Remus and cannot forgive them can continue to do so at their leisure. Some restrictions may apply. See HB file for details. Does anyone else miss the days when all that was taken for granted? From sunnylove0 at aol.com Mon Jul 19 15:45:43 2004 From: sunnylove0 at aol.com (sunnylove0 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:45:43 EDT Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 23: Christmas On The Closed Ward Message-ID: <1e9.256bd582.2e2d46a7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106898 Yes, it's that time again. Here we go (hope this is comprehensible). After hearing Moody's theory, Harry isolates himself in his room at Grimmald Place, convinced that he is being possessed by Voldemort and that he is the "weapon" the Order has been discussing. He is about ready to pack up and go back to Privet Drive when Phineas Nigellus appears with a message from Dumbledore: "Stay where you are." Though angry about Dumbledore's continued refusal to face him or tell him much of anything, Harry decides to stay at Grimmauld Place. Harry continues to stay in his room, though, until Hermione arrives early from her skiing trip and talks him out. She tells him that Umbridge is livid over their escape, and chews him out for sitting alone and brooding. She is seconded by Ginny, who reminds Harry that she was possessed by Voldemort herself. After they compare notes and Ron and Hermione tell Harry that he couldn't and didn't leave his bed the night Mr. Weasley was attacked, Harry is reassured. Downstairs, Sirius has gleefully decorated the house for Christmas and is singing carols. On Christmas morning everyone opens presents. Harry gets a set of books on defensive magic (very useful for the D.A.) and Hermione gets some "interesting" (ick) perfume from Ron. They are interrupted by the twins, who tell them that Molly is upset: Percy has sent back his Christmas present and refused to visit his father. Hermione has made Kreacher a quilt, but the elf seems to have disappared. After dessert, everyone piles into Mundungus's (probably stolen) car and go to St. Mungo's to visit Mr. Weasley. Arthur is in a merry mood, having conspired with a junior healer for Muggle stitches ( much to Molly's disgust). On their way for a cup of tea, the trio and Ginny run into none other than Professor Lockhart, an escapee from the long term resident ward. He seems to have regained his self-centeredness and the ability to autograph pictures (he just wishes he could remember why.). Mistaken by an eager healer for visitors of Lockhart's, they are taken to meet the other long-term residents: Broderick Bode ( who has just received a very strange plant with tentacles), a dog-faced woman called Agnes, who is expecting a visit from her son, and Frank and Alice Longbottom, who have visitors...Neville and his grandmother. Harry tries to distract Ron from recognizing Neville, but too late. Offended that Neville hasn't told them, Gran tells Harry, Ron, Hermione, and Ginny the story of the Longbottoms' torture and insanity, as Alice, mute and dead-looking, drifts down the ward to give her son an empty gum wrapper. After Neville and Gran leave, Harry tells them that Bellatrix Lestrange was responsible. ********* Discussion Questions: 1) When Harry thinks that he is a danger to others, why is his first instinct to go back to Privet Drive? 2) Why does Harry ask advice of no one, especially Sirius, whom he trusts and has gone to before? 3) Why is neither the trio nor the healer suspicious of Bode's plant? 4) Why does Alice give Neville the gum wrapper? Is she starting to recognize him? Is there something strange about the gum, or is it all she has to give? ******** Amber "NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/67817 and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/85829 as well as "OotP Chapter Discussions" at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 19 15:44:10 2004 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 16:44:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Books 6 & 7 Message-ID: <20040719154410.43404.qmail@web25102.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106899 Here is a list of my predictions for Books 6 & 7, with my % of certainty next to each one. I explain my reason for each prediction underneath. I would very much like to invite other members to make a list like this. 1. Harry will liberate his emotional ego in book 6. 100% 2. Harry will liberate his consciousness ego in book 7. 100% 3. Harry will pass through the Gate of Saturn in book 7. 100% 4. Ron and Hermione will die by decapitation but will live on or live again in Harry through the alchemical process. 90% 5. Harry will enter the Temple of Venus (the Room with the mysterious force in the MoM). 99% 6. Harry will take Hagrid's place at the end of book 7. 75% 7. Harry will not have to kill Voldemort by a deliberate act. 100% 8. Voldemort will dissipate like an expired Patronus through an act of love by Harry. 99% 9. Voldemort will tempt Harry before Harry finally wins the battle. 90% Three temptations: 25% 1. Harry will liberate his emotional ego in book 6. We are now 5/7 through the journey. So far the story has followed EXACTLY the 7 steps of liberation as symbolised in the Alchemical Wedding of Christian Rosycross in the ascent of the 9 candidates of the seven floors in the Tower of Olympus. In post 55793 in April 2003 I predicted, on this basis, that Harry would liberate his mental ego in book 5. This is exactly what happened. Voldemort was driven out of Harry's mind by his love for Sirius. Jo has already stated that in book 6 Harry will need to control his emotions. This I think is a clue in that direction. 2. Harry will liberate his consciousness ego in book 7. The same reason as for No. 1. I will just explain what I mean by the threefold ego. The mental ego is obviously situated in the head and is the voice of reason that speaks to the central consciousness. The Emotional ego is the voice of the heart that speaks to the central consciousness. The consciousness ego is the central consciousness situated just behind the forehead between the eyebrows. Going through life we are constantly addressed by the head and the heart, and the central consciousness makes the choice of which voice to listen to. Some people listen more to the voice of the head, others to the voice of the heart, and others again spend their lives listening to both and living in inner conflict. When our Voldemort is driven out of our head it means our head is free from evil and so the voice of reason will be pure and unselfish. When he is driven from the heart this means no feelings of selfishness will ever speak to us again. When the consciousness ego is liberated from Voldemort it is set free from all the restrictions of time and space. It is reborn as an omniscient consciousness linked always to the great Architect of the Universe. There is no separation between Him and Man and this consciousness is a progress from unimaginable glory to ever intenser, ever more sublime, ever more rapturous, totally selfless glory. In Buddhism this is called the enlightenment. In Christianity it is the moment the dove landed on Jesus after his baptism by John. In the Corpus Hermeticum this is the voice of Pymander speaking to Hermes. The Rosicrucians call it the Mercury Initiation. 3. Harry will pass through the Gate of Saturn in book 7. Before the new consciousness can be born the old one has to "die". This is not a real death in the sense that there is a gap between the old and the new consciousness. The old three-dimensional consciousness is swallowed up by the new, as it were. Death is swallowed up by victory. A candle flame merges into the sun. The flame has died yet lives on forever in the mighty radiations of the sun. Harry will pass though the archway with the veil and return victorious. I think it is possible that he will pass though "hell", as did Jesus after the crucifixion. I'd give that one 80%. What will motivate Harry to go through the archway I don't know, but I agree with a lot of members that it could be Sirius. 4. Ron and Hermione will die by decapitation but will live on or live again in Harry through the alchemical process. Decapitation plays in important role in the Alchemical Wedding, in the New Testament (John the Baptist) and in Harry Potter (Buckbeak, parrot & herring). In the Alchemical Wedding the prince and princess are decapitated along with 4 other kings and queens and their bodies, together with the head of the executioner, used in a process of dissolution, crystallisation, rebirth, another decapitation, burning and another rebirth, to create two new bodies of unsurpassable beauty. I have recently written post 104372 on the Half Blood Prince. I think that somehow Ron and Hermione will live on in Harry after his return through the Gate of Saturn. I suspect the statement "those that love us never truly leave us" is a clue. The three of them together will form a Half Blood Prince, though whether that's the one meant by the title of book 6 I don't know. 5. Harry will enter the Temple of Venus (the Room with the mysterious force in the MoM). Just like Christian Rosycross (note the first name please) Harry will enter the forbidden room. What he will see there I don't know, but I suspect that he will be 'punished' like CRC, who saw Venus lying asleep on a bed. His page lifted the blankets and CRC saw her naked. The gatekeeper through astrological observation became aware of this and at the end of the story he accused CRC of this. CRC was punished by having to become gatekeeper, although "coming home". This is a mysterious part of the AW. If we take this literally it sounds like seeing "Love" is a crime punishable by a kind of house arrest. However we should keep in mind that this is divine humour. The cloakship of gatekeeper is accepted voluntarily. The idea of "punishment" just draws our attention to the inconceivably great sacrifice made by a Master of Compassion when he is faced with two choices: return home to the loving arms of the Father or stay behind in the fallen universe to lead seekers to the homeward journey. Of course compassion wins! Who, who's heart is liberated from Voldemort, would not choose to stay behind and guide his prodigal brothers and sisters to Platform 9 to enable them to begin the 7 years' journey to liberation from suffering and death? This takes us to: 6. Harry will take Hagrid's place at the end of book 7. Hagrid is the Keeper of the Keys and was the one who introduced Harry to the Magical World. He gave Harry the letter of invitation and took him (almost) to platform 9. As a punishment (implicitly or explicitly) Harry will take Hagrid's place after his defeat of Voldemort, the death of his friends and all the exciting adventures of the past seven years. I guess it's a kind of anticlimax, but how symmetrical, how ironic, and yet how sublime. The greatest of them all, He who Defeated the Dark Lord, is rewarded with the humblest job of all. The AW ends with the announcement that two pages are missing, "...and he, the author hereof, whereas he imagined he must be guardian of the gate in the morning, has come home." As Harry has always considered Hogwarts his real home this will be poignantly true for him. I can imagine it now: "First years this way!", Harry bellowed, as the new students gaped at his scar.... What will happen to Hagrid? He will obviously resume the journey that was interrupted previously. I guess Jo will send him through the archway. It's obvious that his progress as a wizard was hindered by being gatekeeper. This points to the sacrifice made by those who take on this role. Someone asked whether Harry's wand will be broken. I'd give that 50%. 7. Harry will not have to kill Voldemort by a deliberate act. I have covered this in my essay. A person whose heart is liberated is just not capable of killing. It's just not possible. No way, no option, can't do, sorry. What happens when evil confronts Good is that Good does not enter into conflict. It steps back and fills the vacated space with Love. That's a Force, not a warm fuzzy feeling. As we know, Voldemort can't stand this Force and whatever part of him is evil will simply dissipate, hence: 8. Voldemort will dissipate like an expired Patronus through an act of love or compassion by Harry. If there is any basic goodness (Tom Riddle?) that will have a chance to start again. 9. Voldemort will tempt Harry before Harry finally wins the battle. (Three times?) Voldemort will confront Harry will all his (Voldemort's) greatness and make promises which Harry will find hard to resist at first. Harry could possibly be very tired and demoralised by the loss of his friends, or other terrible ordeals. This final temptation is inevitable for anyone going the Path of Liberation. The evil in us, which has grown to gigantic proportions during our countless incarnations in this vale of tears, is faced with "to be or not to be" in the final stage of liberation. It is driven into a corner and is faced with extinction. Voldemort's only hope is to tempt the Divine in us to subject itself to him with promises of the fulfilment of all our dreams and desires we'd forgotten we had. In the New Testament, of course, this is described as the three temptations in the desert. In the AW three men try to pull down CRC's scale as his virtues are being weighed. The Buddha was also tempted - by Mara (bitterness). I'm only 25% certain that it will be three times because Jo might think that's a bit too close to the Bible. But then again after Book 7 she might not care that people can finally see the true core and essence of what Harry Potter is really all about. I received an email recently from a member of the group who said that if I occasionally said "I don't know" I might get more responses. Well I can assure you all that what I don't know would fill an encyclopedia as long as the Great Wall of China, but that would be very boring to read. However I hope there's enough doubt left in my predictions for you to comment on them. And you all have my permission to laugh if I'm proven wrong! It's still been fun to predict this. Hans in Holland ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From squeakinby at tds.net Mon Jul 19 16:23:56 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:23:56 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Books 6 & 7 In-Reply-To: <20040719154410.43404.qmail@web25102.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <20040719154410.43404.qmail@web25102.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <40FBF59C.1070201@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 106900 Hans Andra wrote: > 4. Ron and Hermione will die by decapitation but will live on or live again > in Harry through the alchemical process. 90% In a "children's book" given that innocent people are actually being decapitated by insane terrorists in the world NOW??? JKR would have be mad! Certainty of this scenario not happening 100% Jem From CoyotesChild at charter.net Mon Jul 19 16:25:36 2004 From: CoyotesChild at charter.net (Iggy McSnurd) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:25:36 -0500 Subject: Mothers and Fathers (was: Re: James gave his life, why no protection from him?) References: <002201c46b67$efdae480$6601a8c0@DocSavage> Message-ID: <000401c46dad$063409e0$6601a8c0@DocSavage> No: HPFGUIDX 106901 Hi all, I am re-posting this reply I had sent in (partly in case nobody realized it was there, and partly because I began to think about it and look at a few aspects of it, and have a few added observations.) Iggy > > Becki's thought; > > > > Perhaps it goes to the saying that there is no stronger love than a > > mother has for her child. > > Iggy here: > > I dunno... I've always had a problem with that statement... especially since > becoming a father. Love a father shows may come across differently than > that a mother shows, but I don't feel that it's any less than a mothers by > so much as a single mote. Society teaches us that fathers are supposed to > show love in the "paternal" form, and mothers show it in the "maernal" form. > The paternal form of love is often expressed in providing for, caring for, > and protecting. The maternal form is often depicted as nurturing, feeding, > and soothing. While they may take separate paths, I do not see how a > mother's love is greater than a father's. (And yes, some may argue that it > is because a baby resides within its mother's body for nine months... but > that is a matter of biology, and not emotion. There are many instances in > the animal kingdom where a baby is abandoned to fend on its own by the > mother without a second thought... and other instances where the father is > the one that cares for the eggs and the infants... penguins and seahorses > come most readily to mind there.) > Iggy here (again): This got me to thinking a little bit. 95%+ of the time I hear that "there is nothing stronger than a mother's love," it's coming from a mother, or (at least) a woman who wants to be a mother. This is not meant to be a sexist comment in any way... It's simply meant to help illustrate a point. You frequently hear about "the purity/strength/devotion/holiness/etc. of a mother's love," but almost never hear anything about a father's love. (Ok... unless it's in some movie where a father is going on a killing spree of vengeance against the bad guys who killed his family. And then it's more of a "crazed/cold revenge" angle.) A big part of this, I feel, is not that a father's love is any less than a mother's love. It's that society down through all the ages has ingrained into all of us that a mother's love is more active and dynamic in the sense that mothe's are supposed/allowed to show their love and affection and show their emotions regarding it much more strongly. On the other hand, a father's love is supposed to be more passive and solid in nature. Men are taught not to express their love of their children outwardly very much, and that they are expected to do so in being the strong, quiet provider who also is to be a steady foundation for their children's lives. > > Becki: > > James was definatly defending his family but perhaps, in his heart, > > he had additional thoughts, trying to defeat LV, as well as trying > > to protect his family. Perhaps the very thought in Lily's mind at > > the exact time she died was ONLY to protect Harry, so at that very > > minute, she transfered that protection. > > > > Becki (a Mom who would die for her children in a heartbeat). > > > > Iggy here: > > I dunno... If I was in James's shoes in the same situation, the only thought > on my mind would be in protecting my family, my child in particular... but > yes, beating Voldemort would be an aspect, but that's the how, not the what. Iggy here (again): I should also point out that I would give up my life in a heartbeat to protect my daughter as well. This seems to mean less in most cultures because men are EXPECTED to give their lives for family, country, and their faith/religion. Women aren't expected to, so it's seen as a much more noble sacrifice. That's not to downplay the importance of a mother's sacrifice, but merely to point out that a man's is downplayed because society expects it... even though it's still just as strong a sacrifice. To use an odd analogy here: I was working at a Pizza Hut when the 9-11 incident happened. A bunch of us were watching the news coverage in the back, and when we saw the towers fall, one of my co-workers (Heather) started to cry. I, on the other hand, sorta shrugged and sighed with regret, but didn't show much more emotion over that. (I was deliberately trying not to think of all the lives lost, to give myself time to adjust to the idea.) Heather got pissed off at me that I didn't appear to think it was as great a tragedy as it was. I had to explain to her that society trains men to not show emotion, or detatch themselves from it, since that's how we're expected to show strength, and also that's how we're trained to be able to be soldiers and men who are expected to kill or die for a cause... whether we're in the military or not... and not to be affected by it. (At least, we're not allowed to show that we are...) I told her that she can either life in a society where men are expected to at least appear to be fairly detatched and calm about crisis, tragedy, and danger, or she can live in one where we're expected to be as emotional as women are allowed to be and still be seen as strong men. It can't work both ways. A father's love isn't really all that much different. We show it the way we're expected and trained to show it. If we show love the way a mother is expected to, we are seen as being either effeminite, soft, or weak. Just like if a mother shows her love the way a father is expected to by society, they will be seen as being emotionless, uncaring, and a bad mother. > Iggy here: > > Although, if we get down to it, BOTH could have given Harry his protection. > Lilly sacrificed herself with the thought of protecting Harry with her life > and wanting him to live a long and safe life. James sacrificed himself to > protect his son with the knowledge that he'd have to defeat Voldemort to do > it. > > Lilly's sacrifice was powerful, and longer lasting... Not only aiding him in > resisting the AK, but in helping to protect him until he could help to > protect himself. (Which runs right through up until the end of GoF... since > from the end of GoF, and the beginning of OOtP, Harry has learned a LOT > about how to protect and defend himself, even against LV.) Lilly died > wanting to protect Harry and wanting him to live a long life. > > James's sacrrifice was just as powerful, but much more immediate and intense > because it was a short lived one. His sacrifice was the other half of > helping Harry resist the AK, but the entire power that allowed the AK to > rebound back on LV. James died wanting to protect Harry, and defeat LV to > do so. > > To me, not only is this viable, (and recognizing of a father's love for his > child as well...) but it would also explain why Harry has only been told > about his mother's protection.... because it's the only one that has come > into play since that first, fateful night. His father's protection has > faded LONG before he comes under danger from LV again. > > > Just my two centaur's worth. > > Iggy McSnurd > Iggy here (again): Ok, here's where we go back into some of the canon aspect of this secondary reply... Comparing some of the mothers and fathers in the HP books. Petunia and Vernon - While both are horrible to Harry (despite Petunia's dedication to the promose she made to protect him) they are very caring of Dudly... although in a rather unhealthy manner as most child psychologists would tell you. Petunia fawns over him, calls him her "little Duddykins," and treats him like her pride and joy. She gets distraught and emotional whenever something bad happens to Dudly. Vernon, on the other hand, is gruff, takes pride in his ability to make money for his family, and is proud of his manly son. They both love Dudley, but show it in ways that are, in effect, exxagerations of what society expects parents to act like. They also place at least as much, if not more, stock in appearances and money than in family itself. Molly and Arthur - Both have taken Herry in as like a son to them (and Hermione like a daughter) and care very much for their families. Arthur is the breadwinner, and Molly is the housewife. They are the flipside of Petunia and Vernon in the sense that they are a much healthier family and have a different set of priorities... money and appearances being less important than family. Granted, Molly can be a little smothering at times, she does it our of an honest love and desire to show those she loves that she DOES love them, rather than to spoil her children or appear to be a good mother. Molly feeds, clothes, and cleans for her family... she also wants to shelter and protect them by not exposing her children (even her "adopted" ones) to danger. Arthur, on the other hands, wishes to protect and shield his children, but he also understands what they are capable of, and that sometimes knowledge can be a much stronger shield than ignorance. He is not as emotional as Molly, but it is VERY clear that he loves his children just as much as Molly does. Mr. and Mrs. Diggory - While we don't see much of Mrs. Diggory, Amos is obviously proud of his son, and shows a certain amount of affection. When they hear of Cedric's death and see the body, Mrs. Diggory collapses in tears and becomes overcome. Mr. Diggory, on the other hand, shows obviously severe greif, but also a resolve that he knows he must be strong because his wife needs him to be. This is something that's VERY common in most cultures. McGonagall and Dumbledore - I know people will ask "why are you putting this pair here as parentls." I'm sure, of you think about it, you'll understand. Both of them are like grandparents/foster parents of a sort to Harry (and, to a lesser extent, Ron and Hermione) while he is at school. They both look out for him, and it's rather obvious that they feel an almost parental affection for him. When things get rougher for Harry, Albus begins to withdraw a bit and stop showing that paretnal side to him, preferring to try and help him from the background until confronted with no option but to express how he feels. McGonagall, on the other hand, tends to be more maternal (if strict and less showing of emotion) but when he faces challenges, she does what she can (within the rules) to help Harry. The bigger the wall he confronts to his goals later on (such as Umbridge telling him he would never be an Auror) the more dedicated and vocal she becomes in her support. When she can, she also attempts to give him maternal advice and help him grow in himself more than most teachers would. Now, there are other people I could add in that show themselves in either direct parental roles, or roles that can be seen as parental (Granny Longbottom, Sirius Black, and even Hagrid, Lupin, and even Dobby in his own, odd way...) as well as some others. I omitted the Malfoys, for example, because we see next to nothing of Narcissa, and Lucius is presented less as a father, and more as the "Right Hand of Voldemort" and a conniving snake in his own right. I also left out (but am willing to address if need be) Bary Crouch Sr. and his wife. Their situation was a bit odd and unique even for the wizarding world, since Crouch Sr. had kinda gone off the deep end when Jr. was only a child. Well, I think I've gone on long enough with this letter. That's enough for now... (Unless someone wants me to go on further. *grin*) Iggy McSnurd From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Mon Jul 19 16:47:12 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 19 Jul 2004 16:47:12 -0000 Subject: Snape and Dudley Message-ID: <20040719164712.18802.qmail@webmail30.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106902 - Potioncat: - Looks like Snape and Black both have good reasons to continue to - dislike each other. But let me point out, when Snape had the - chance to turn Black over to the Dementors, he didn't. So while he - threatened it, he didn't do it. Amey: Which chance are you talking about? In PoA or in GoF? Because in PoA: "You see, Minister?" said Snape. "Confunded, both of them.... Black's done a very good job on them...." "WE'RE NOT CONFUNDED!" Harry roared. "... only hope Dumbledore's not going to make difficulties," Snape was saying. "The Kiss will be performed immediately?" Harry clenched his teeth. He caught a glimpse of Snape's smirk as he and Fudge passed Harry and Hermione's hiding place. Isn?t that enough proof that Snape wanted Sirius dead (nope, not dead, even worse than that . Should I call it undead???). At the end of GoF, when Sirius was with Dumbledore, then he didn?t turn him over to the dementors (who were handy) accepted, but I think Dumbledore must have told the truth, or what I really believe that he knew that Sirius was telling the truth all along but didn?t want to believe it till forced. - Now I (Tammy) reply: - That's a very good question, isn't it? If it were anyone BUT Harry Potter, that - would be an extremely good question. Why would the MOM bother with - someone performing magic in front of immediate Muggle family who already - knew about the WW? There'd be no reason to, you're absolutely right, Ariston. Amey: 'Keep your wand out,' she told Harry, as they entered Wisteria Walk. 'Never mind the Statute of Secrecy now, there's going to be hell to pay anyway, we might as well be hanged for a dragon as an egg. Talk about the Reasonable Restriction of Underage Sorcery ' (A Peck of Owls . OOtP) Why was Mrs. Figg worried about the Statute of Secrecy?? Was she expecting some more trouble? Because she does not mention that the charm was done in front of Dudley, who is a muggle (but being family, he must not be included in Statute of Secrecy). Or is it that even if the family does know about magic, even overage wizards are not supposed to do it in front of them according to statute? We will know when Harry is overage (one more year to go, right?). As for Gred and Forge (I love these names) giving Dudders the ten-toungue toffee it was more misuse of muggle artifacts (or not even *muggle* as wizards also have them). But then I can?t say how Arthur got away with demolishing the entire fireplace of Dursleys. - Jen: Well, Harry tells him a few pages earlier, in no uncertain - terms, "DUDLEY, KEEP YOUUR MOUTH SHUT! WHATEVER YOU DO...." (OOTP, - US, chap. 1, p.17). - I do think he listened to and believed Harry in this situation, - despite telling his parents later that Harry was to blame. He surely - heard the total fear in Harry's voice and even Dudley probably - recongnized, like Harry, that Harry wasn't powerful enough to block - the stars, moon, etc. His blame of Harry was a cover for whatever - bad memory was revealed to him--he knows blaming Harry is a surefire - way to get Vernon & Petunia sidetracked from questioning him. Amey: Since when Dudley heard to Harry so much? I mean, it looks suspicious, doesn?t it? Even Petunia knew about the dementors (though she didn?t know anything about the Kiss), and given the fact that somebody is going to awaken his/her magical powers late in life (how late is open to speculation), looks highly suspicious. Amey, hoping that I am not suffering from MarkEvansitis [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Mon Jul 19 17:00:13 2004 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:00:13 -0000 Subject: "I'm not proud of it" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106903 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Looks like Snape and Black both have good reasons to continue to > dislike each other. But let me point out, when Snape had the > chance to turn Black over to the Dementors, he didn't. So while he > threatened it, he didn't do it. He was unconscious at the time and when he woke up the dementors were already gone (due to Harry's back-from-the-future Patronus charm). He brought the entire group to Hogwarts where he knew Fudge was and he knew that the dementors would immediately be called to do their worst. He was furious that Black managed to escape that fate. So he as good as delivered him to them. I am not trying to paint Sirius as a saint or Snape as a vilain, only to point out that this is not a black and white case - that's what I like so much about JKR's work, things are never as simple as they seem... Salit From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 13:28:59 2004 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 06:28:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Percy... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040719132859.85319.qmail@web50110.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106904 Do people really see Percy as ambitious? I don't. He doesn't crave power - he craves recognition. To paraphrase Ron (I think), Percy wouldn't recognize power if it danced in front of him wearing Dobby's tea cozy. For what it's worth, neither does Fudge, who is usually very uncomfortable when he actually has to exercise power as opposed to simply looking powerful. (During OOTP, this changes, but only because Umbridge and Lucius Malfoy are busy stiffening his spine by telling him Dumbleodre is plotting against him; there are few things more rigid than an easy going person who feels that he's being taken advantage of by others.) Lucius Malfoy is ambitious. He understands that power is getting what you want out of other people and organizations, even if you sometimes have to go the roundabout way to do it. He could care less about getting his face on the front page of the Daily Prophet on a weekly basis. Fudge and Percy love recognition - the front page photos, the speech-making opportunities, the busy work that comes from really getting into a particular area of government administration (and yes, cauldron bottoms ARE important - just ask Mungdungus Fletcher how much money he'd make off illicit thin-bottomed cauldrons!). What Percy is looking for is recognition for his wonderfulness. He's climbed the establishment, approved-good-son ladder rung by rung and reaped the benefits of Molly approval every step of the way. And now that he has this wonderful new job his parents have changed the rules on him and implied that he didn't deserve it! After all his efforts to be the Good Son! That's not fair! So Percy leaves in a huge huff and spends the year sulking and soaking up the approval of people in the MoM who are now his replacement family. If Percy does help the Dark Side it will be inadvertantly and without realizing it. Percy is not evil, not even close to turning evil. He's just....Percy the Prefect in the real world. Poor Percy. Even prats have feelings. Magda __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/ From gullicksen at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 13:45:51 2004 From: gullicksen at yahoo.com (kbmum2000) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:45:51 -0000 Subject: "I'm not proud of it" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106905 > Potioncat wrote: > Looks like Snape and Black both have good reasons to continue to > dislike each other. But let me point out, when Snape had the > chance to turn Black over to the Dementors, he didn't. So while he > threatened it, he didn't do it. When did Snape have that chance? He threatened to give Sirius to the Dementors and was knocked out by Harry, Ron and Hermione in the Shrieking Shack. When he came to, outside, he found Sirius, Harry and Hermione unconscious by the lake. He didn't see the Patronus. He told Fudge that he had no idea what made the Dementors retreat, and that they were returning to their positions at the entrances when he awoke. It's speculation on my part, but I don't think the Dementors would have immediately returned to the lake after a Patronus chased them away. kbmum From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 19 17:15:40 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:15:40 -0000 Subject: I'm not proud of it Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106906 Ginger, you are so sweet to equate called a teacher an old silly with what those boys did to Snape. I assume you were a very little girl - is first grade like our reception? i.e. about 5 or 6? I think one of the reasons that some of us take a graver view of the behaviour of James and Sirius is that we have experienced not so much bullying of ourselves (which is often possible to forgive (though not forget) and move on from, but bullying of our children, which is an entirely different matter. My middle child, a gentle little boy, was badly bullied at school and I neither forgive nor forget what was done to him, so when I read about Snape's worst memory, it brings it all back. The Siriophiles and Jacobites can come up with as many excuses as they like. The behaviour of both these boys (very nearly men) is still appalling. How would you feel if Snape had been YOUR kid? Sylvia (who still gets annoyed when that earlier piece of nastiness is referred to as a "prank" From ariston3344 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 17:11:07 2004 From: ariston3344 at yahoo.com (ariston3344) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:11:07 -0000 Subject: Statute of Secrecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106907 I (Ariston) wrote: > when Harry casts the Patronus in OotP to save himself and Dudley, > why does the MoM make a big deal about the fact that he did this > in front of a Muggle (Dudley)? This is mentioned in the letter > he gets from the MoM, and Fudge even goes out of his way to > emphasize this at the hearing. To which Valky, Lee, and Tammy all replied (I'll paraphrase to save much quoting :-) that this was just one more way Fudge was trying to discredit Harry, and that it further demonstrates Fudge's corruption. First, thanks for your kind welcome to the list! Second, let me say that I guess all of you are right, that Fudge is just trying to discredit Harry in every way he can. I suppose I was hoping for some deeper reason, since nobody in the books seems to have batted an eye at this extra, trumped-up charge. But maybe Fudge's detractors on the Wizengamot knew enough to keep quiet until it was time to vote. :-) Still, the secrecy charge lowers my opinion of Fudge even further. Sure, he was power-hungry and out to "get Harry" (and Dumbledore), and he's also prejudiced and willfully blind... okay, sounds bad enough already, doesn't it? But I never really thought of him as -- well, dim. I assume that the Wizengamot is made up of intelligent witches and wizards who are very familiar with magical law. The secrecy charge seems legally flawed, and so it's a real insult to the Wizengamot's intelligence to try to slide it past them. (Unlike the underage charge, which turns on a question of fact: were there really Dementors in that street that night?) But insulting the Wizengamot's intelligence doesn't seem to be a very strategic move on Fudge's part. Well, giving the benefit of the doubt, maybe Fudge only knew that Dudley was a Muggle, not that he was part of Harry's immediate family. But maybe Fudge's just not very smart. Either way, here's hoping for a better Minister for Magic in HBP. :-) -ariston From happybean98 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 17:20:50 2004 From: happybean98 at yahoo.com (happybean98) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:20:50 -0000 Subject: Let's burn down the Houses ! (was : The Sorting Hat doesn't sort ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106908 > Jenni wrote : > > You know, I'm beginning to think this theory, about the sorting > > hat not really "sorting" and just taking what's in the first year's > > mind instead, has quite a lot of merit. At the very least, what > > canon we have doesn't contradict this particular view. > Del replies : > You know what, Jenni ? You're starting to get me convinced. > But I don't like that, oh no, not at all ! > What it would basically mean would be that the Sorting would reinforce any prejudice the kids would have had when arriving at Hogwarts, and I find that *disgusting* !! happybean98: You have a point here Del, that I think the Sorting Hat is aware of. But the whole story is that the houses were not originally meant to be breeding grounds for prejudice. "And never since the founders four Were whittled down to three Have the Houses been united As they once were meant to be." OoP p. 206. This excerpt from the Sorting Hat's song tells me that originally, the houses were meant to peacefully co-exist. "The Houses that, like pillars four; Had once held up our school," OoP p. 206 (But alas for frail humanity,) "Now turned upon each other and, Divided, sought to rule." OoP p. 206 I interpret this to mean that while the houses were intended to support the school and work together, (maybe like different branches of government), corruption and the desire for power destroyed their unity and left them vulnerable to becoming the basis for sterotypes and pecking orders, (the hallmarks of prejudice). Maybe this is why the hat sings: "But this year I'll go further, Listen closely to my song: Though condemned I am to split you Still I worry that it's wrong, Though I must fulfill my duty And must quarter every year Still I wonder whether sorting May not bring the end I fear." OoP p. 206 I think the Sorting Hat realizes that because of the fall-out between the founders, the sorting has become the basis for prejudice and disharmony, and now thinks it is dangerous. Who knows? Maybe the Sorting Hat will go on strike next year? Del continues: (snip) > So he (Draco) arrives at Hogwarts *wanting* to be Sorted into the House that > will support him in his opinions and ambitions. > And instead of throwing him in Gryffindor along with the Trio so that > he's got a chance to discover something new and maybe change his mind, > the Hat obligingly puts him in the only House that won't challenge him ! > > Disgusting. happybean98: I agree that it's too bad the Sorting Hat doesn't make more prudential house placements, but I think you're trying to give the Sorting Hat a role that it doesn't have. It's a magical object, not an authority figure, (although it does seem to be developing a conscience...) Also, while one effect of the house system may be that it helps prejudiced Slytherins feed on each others warped ideas, does that mean that the whole system is corrupt and should be thrown out? Others have pointed out that it serves good purposes as well, such as being a family away from family, and helping the students to feel at home in a smaller group of students. Del: > I think it's high time someone takes the decision to burn down the > Houses and rebuild a new system based on something arbitrary, like > putting the (new !) names of the 4 Houses in that stupid Hat and > having the students pick one blindly, for example. happybean98: Well, it's interesting to note that JKR originally thought of doing that very thing. Cannon is the "page of doodlings" on her web site depicting all the different ways she considered sorting the students. -happybean98 From dolis5657 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 07:17:13 2004 From: dolis5657 at yahoo.com (dcgmck) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:17:13 -0000 Subject: The Potion Puzzle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106909 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dcgmck" > wrote: > > About Dave Witley's analysis of Snape's potion puzzle > > > > > Valky: > > Sorry about before, It was just irresistable to point how why the > Chaser was the poison. It's makes sense that you didnt see it in > this context because it really suited the other context so much > better. LOL (still laughing BTW, thats my first new JKR joke in > almost a month). dcgmck: Thanks for the clarifications. I tried the link for the interview but was unable to access it. I have to agree, however, that the idea of a poisonous chaser does tickle. I just don't see canonical support for James as a Chaser. (See Rebecca's 11:39 p.m. post.) >Valky: > (snip). . . we both seem to think that Harry realising his identity > is the real end of the story, the 250 point ending that can win the > game if the other players have done well enough, or lose it if they > haven't but then still a win for Harry in that he has found his true identity and the answer to his seeking question. (as with Bulgaria v Ireland in the QWC, I knew I'd find something to parrallel that result! Krum ends the game 'on his own terms') dcgmck: Hm... I like the idea of Harry ending the game on his own terms. That seems to be the underlying lesson that Dumbledore consistently encourages Harry to accept. It certainly matches JKR's habit of presaging events with simpler parallels while hiding the larger picture with smaller scale (tree in foreground, forest in background). The Triwizard Tournament seems to be on a much larger scale than any individual Quidditch match, yet the tournament is, by comparison, insignificant in comparison to the coming war, the first volley of which is fired as the culmination of the tournament's climax. As Harry emulates and tops Viktor in the first trial, so we can hope that JKR will magnify her echo of Viktor's settling the match on her own terms. (Of course, we hope for actual as well as moral victory.) ;-> > > Valky: > Yes... and not all of us could locate the said clues for > themselves... meaning me of course, but once I have them, I enjoy > doing stuff with it so Thankyou DG dcgmck: Thanks for clarifying your laughter and connecting the GoF dots. :-) > > Valky: > I agree with Meltowne that book three is Chaser #2 and not the > Keeper stage of the journey. dcgmck: I can see what you folks are saying, and I have to agree. I wasn't entirely comfortable with the keeper showing up so early and am pleased to consider a more plausible parallel. > > > Valky: > I like your take on that. > But, since I support that the Keeper remains. I will nominate that > we will get the bottle of wine next. And the step back through > history last, I dont know for sure why I think it will be in this > order because there are many many reasons. > They range from Symbolism discussions to just how long I think JKR > will hold out on telling us all who is ESE and HB and other such. > Suffice to say that I think the secrets come last in the series, > just as Quirrel was standing before the mirror in the end of PS. dcgmck: I look forward to reading any and all such discussions on symbolism, etc. Quirrel got burned; those of us who try to second-guess JKR probably will too, but that IS the game right now while we wait between texts, isn't it? Valky: > > > Um.... this is Snapes puzzles right? > > > > > > And James was a Chaser. > > > > > > Chaser and Poison.. James and Poison.. James and BANE OF MY > > > EXISTENCE!!! > > > > > Rebecca: > > This works out fine, except for one thing: James Potter was a > Seeker (like his son Harry) and not a Chaser. > > Valky: > You know whats sad about this? That everyone is missing the joke. > > Nevermind the movie blot, I wish I knew why or how that silly line > got into the film anyway. dcgmck: Actually, if you accept Witley's logic and follow the clues given in PS/SS, poison is always followed by wine, reading from left to right. Of course, the clue is such that it suggests that the nettle wine is always staying close (and to the right) of the poisons. Either way, it can be perceived as a promise of entertainment to lighten the darker moments/texts. Hm.. does that mean we're being promised that there will be an entertaining finish? Or that we'll be dropped back at the beginning, left with all our philosophical conundrums intact? In any event, the comment about James as Seeker is only in the film. The first volume just says he was an excellent player, while Snape's memory invites the inference that James is a seeker because of the snitch he carries. His actual position has not been identified in the books, as far as I can remember or find. Thanks for the feedback. From lysandrabellargus at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 19 09:26:34 2004 From: lysandrabellargus at yahoo.co.uk (Sandra) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:26:34 -0000 Subject: Phineas Nigellus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106910 Catlady: > dear old Headmaster's > name was Phineas Nigellus Black, > So his name was Black Black Black, close enough > for a JKR joke. I really enjoy the explanation of words and names on this list. May I just add, that even his portrait is so dark, if not 'black' (I do not recall the exact wording, and havn't got my books with me now to check.) So he really is the most 'black' of them all, which I guess might account for his worries about the last remaining, or not, heir of the family. Sandra From musicofsilence at hotmail.com Mon Jul 19 18:10:50 2004 From: musicofsilence at hotmail.com (lifeavantgarde) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:10:50 -0000 Subject: New JKR FAQ Poll: Which is significant? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106911 Stefanie ponders: Looking at JKR's new FAQ poll on her website, and looking as what canon has to offer us, which option do you think would help us the most? I haven't given it too much thought, yet, but as of right now, I'm absolutely stumped as to which I'm going to vote for... //1) Is Percy working undercover for any secret organization/boss?// I can't see this garnering any other response but "no". We get from the World Book Day chat: |Q: Was Percy acting entirely of his own |accord in Order of the Phoenix? |A: I'm afraid so." which would seem to imply that his overall "yes-man" attitude is his primary motive...but...getting convoluted, what if this answer were to mean that his actions were of his own accord, but as a ruse for undercover actions? I think it's highly unlikely, though. Of the characterization that we've gotten of Percy since he's been a 5th year, unless he's been in cahoots with some underground organization since then, I can't see his attitude and actions being the result of his secret alliance with the Dark Force Defence League or something ::smirk:: Meh, and if he *were*, that would seem to be an important plotline in the next books...not one that JKR would divulge easily and straigh-forwardly. //2) Where has Peter Pettigrew (Wormtail) been since the end of 'Goblet of Fire'?// This is interesting since we get nothing of Peter in OotP save the picture of the old Order and 'Snape's Worst Memory.' There's the wizard's life-debt to take in account with this (maybe he's staying away from the action as to prevent himself from having to save Harry's life if it came down to it?) Is he learning the finer points of caring for silver? What would this clarify? //3) What did Dumbledore's Howler to Aunt Petunia mean? ('Remember my last'?)// I'm tempted to vote for this the most, and at the same time...gah! The wording of the Howler is so strange. We do know we're going to learn more about Lily in the upcoming books, and I *know* this point has been debated endlessly...but I have a feeling that even if she doesn't answer this straightforwardly, she'd let some clues drop. So...any ideas on what would help us out the most here? Befuddled, Stefanie From cincimaelder at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 11:08:17 2004 From: cincimaelder at yahoo.com (cincimaelder) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:08:17 -0000 Subject: Dudley Demented (???) In-Reply-To: <20040719105813.1815.qmail@webmail9.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106912 Amey: > "Arms clamped over his face"??? Why? How should he know that the Dementor is going to kiss him? From what he says later, he didn't see the dementor, then how does he know to cover his face??? > > Any thought anyone??? > > I assumed it was just the overwhelming feeling of hopelessness, not that he thought the dementor would kiss him. If one were laying there being totally drained of happiness and reliving one's worst memories, even if you didn't know the cause, you might be likely to cover your face to block out whatever it was. Mae From jane_starr at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 18:26:53 2004 From: jane_starr at yahoo.com (Jane Starr) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:26:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mothers and Fathers (was: Re: James gave his life, why no protection from him?) In-Reply-To: <000401c46dad$063409e0$6601a8c0@DocSavage> Message-ID: <20040719182653.49019.qmail@web90006.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106913 --- Iggy McSnurd wrote: Snip, snip snip... > Mr. and Mrs. Diggory - While we don't see much of > Mrs. Diggory, Amos is > obviously proud of his son, and shows a certain > amount of affection. When > they hear of Cedric's death and see the body, Mrs. > Diggory collapses in > tears and becomes overcome. Mr. Diggory, on the > other hand, shows obviously > severe greif, but also a resolve that he knows he > must be strong because his > wife needs him to be. This is something that's VERY > common in most > cultures. JES: Actually, I think if you check the book (sorry, don't have GoF handy to quote chapter and page), you will find that it was MRS Diggory who was the stoic and MR Diggory who was showing his emotions. At least that was the case when they came to see Harry in the Hospital Wing. I marked it particularly as it was the opposite of what I would have expected. I forget if there was any mention of their reactions when it first happened. An interesting and thought-provoking post - thanks! JES __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Mon Jul 19 18:27:46 2004 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:27:46 -0000 Subject: The One Simple Answer To All Our Questions (well, sorta) In-Reply-To: <40FBD1EE.5020409@rcn.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106914 <<>> The Sergeant Majorette says That's the difference between children's literature and adult- oriented stuff. Children don't want or need to have every detail in place. That's why they fling the expensive, complicated electronic talking toy into the corner and play with the box. --JDR From sherriola at earthlink.net Mon Jul 19 18:58:22 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:58:22 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mothers and Fathers (was: Re: James gave his life, why no protection from him?) In-Reply-To: <000401c46dad$063409e0$6601a8c0@DocSavage> Message-ID: <008d01c46dc2$5e568cf0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 106915 Iggy here (again): This got me to thinking a little bit. 95%+ of the time I hear that "there is nothing stronger than a mother's love," it's coming from a mother, or (at least) a woman who wants to be a mother. This is not meant to be a sexist comment in any way... It's simply meant to help illustrate a point. You frequently hear about "the purity/strength/devotion/holiness/etc. of a mother's love," but almost never hear anything about a father's love. (Ok... unless it's in some movie where a father is going on a killing spree of vengeance against the bad guys who killed his family. And then it's more of a "crazed/cold revenge" angle.) Sherry now Iggy, thank you so much for this post. I hardly know how to snip it, so I can reply. I was raised by my father, and so I am not a woman who believes that there is nothing stronger or more instinctive than a mother's love. My mother couldn't handle the fact that I was disabled, and she gave up all care and input into my raising to my father. My dad was married several times, and since I lived with him, he was my primary parental influence. He was the one who had to see me go through surgeries to fuse my right knee at age three. He was the one who got angry when parades of med students were taken to my hospital room to see me, feeling like I was on display, like an interesting specimen in a laboratory. I suppose, in a way, I was, since at the time at least, I was the youngest child ever diagnosed with juvenile rheumatoid arthritis. He was the one who had to make sure I did my exercises and took my medicine. When I went blind, he was the one who decided I would not be sent away from my home to attend special school, but would go to public school and remain with my family. He was the one, along with his second wife, who told me over and over, that I am as good as anyone else, and that my blindness and arthritis never need stop me and never let anyone else's feelings about my disabilities stop me. He was the one who had to rush me to the hospital when I broke that fused knee, shaking with terror that his little girl might have ruined it for good. It was even my dad, who had to gently but firmly push me out of the nest, so that I could learn to live independently. Yet, when I messed up, he would come to the rescue. It was my dad who was so proud when I got my first job, my second job ... and all the rest. It was my dad--I have discovered since he died, that worried constantly about me but didn't want to ruin my fight for independence, so he never told me. He was at my side through all my joint replacement surgeries. I could go on and on. No, he wasn't perfect, and he wasn't always emotionally supportive, but he did the best he could. He taught me to be a strong confident woman. I am in my mid 40's now, and the reason I am still able to walk in spite of the arthritis I still have, is that my dad made me exercise and taught me what I needed to know to control my disease, instead of it controlling me. I have always been irritated by the idea that a woman, a mother is always and naturally the best possible parent and the one to make all the sacrifices. Even in HP, it irritates me that the sacrifice James made seems to count for so little. I have a relationship with my mother, strictly because she is my mother, and because my dad told me never to give up on her. But she isn't interested in my life anymore than she was interested in raising a disabled child. To give her credit, she was a very young woman when this all happened, but she is still uncomfortable around me to this day, shakes with terror whenever she's near me or has to guide me or something. She is the way she is, and she can't help it. But I don't have this sort of instinctive longing to have a relationship with her, strictly because she is my mother. I feel obligated to try, but I don't miss her, and I don't even know if I love her, beyond a dutiful sort of thing. I don't even dislike her. I just feel sort of nothing toward her. But my dad, who died seven years ago, I miss him everyday. I miss him being the one to whom I go when I succeed at something, or feel brokenhearted or something. He sacrificed, went against current thinking in his choices about me--I mean thinking at the time he made the choices--and gave his life to giving me and my siblings a strong positive upbringing and outlook. I am proud of him, and would take his brand of love over my mom's any day. Ok, sorry, I got on a tangent there, didn't I? But your post reminded me so much of how I've always felt and how I resent the seeming insignificance of James in protecting Harry. I think that both he and Lily gave Harry some kind of protection, or at least, I hope that is true. Sherry G From belijako at online.no Mon Jul 19 19:29:57 2004 From: belijako at online.no (Berit Klausen) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 19:29:57 -0000 Subject: Dudley Demented (???) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106916 Amey wrote: "Arms clamped over his face"??? Why? How should he know that the Dementor is going to kiss him? From what he says later, he didn't see the dementor, then how does he know to cover his face??? Mae wrote: I assumed it was just the overwhelming feeling of hopelessness, not that he thought the dementor would kiss him. Berit replies: I've always gathered that Dudley for once actually listened to Harry! When Harry realises that there are more than one Dementor in the alleyway and that Dudley is running right at one, he tells Dudley to keep his mouth shut at all costs: 'WHATEVER YOU DO, KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT!' (OotP p. 21 Bloomsbury) I think Dudley, thick-headed though he is, picked up on the urgency and dead seriousness in Harry's voice and did what he was told even though he didn't know why. Just look at the way Rowling is describing Dudley a couple of pages later (p.25): 'But Dudley either could not or would not move. He remained on the ground, trembling and ashen-faced, *his mouth shut very tight*.' Yeap, I reckon Dudley got the message and acted on it even though he hadn't the faintest idea what a Dementor's kiss was all about :-) So, according to canon, Dudley didn't know he should keep his mouth shut at all costs in order to avoid having the Dementor's kiss administered to him. He just did what Harry told him to do. Berit From sofdog_2000 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 19:55:03 2004 From: sofdog_2000 at yahoo.com (sofdog_2000) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 19:55:03 -0000 Subject: In defense of considering pureblood preference racism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106917 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "wickywackywoo2001" wrote: I've just never gotten the impression that Arthur is being patronizing > when he interests himself in Muggle inventions and traditions. He > seems to me very clearly to be in the line of English enthusiasts. He > reminds me a bit of Mr. Pickwick; Muggledom seems to be a great > adventure for him, and he's like those eccentric Englishmen who get a > deep satisfaction out of what other people see as prosaic and > uninteresting junk (trainspotters, for example). He's an amateur, > going back to the original meaning of the word, one who does something > purely out of love. I expect that's why he went into his present line > of work, because it allows him access to something that interests and > delights him. He's not debating which way of life he wants to adopt, > and why should he? He's not a Muggle - he's always going to be > 'outside' that world, but I see his interest and enthusiasm for Muggle > artifacts to be rather charming. As a Muggle myself, I'd never be > offended by someone else trying to learn about my life; it might even > make me appreciate it more, as what has become ordinary and dull to me > is regarded as fresh and exciting by someone else. > > Wanda SOF: I see Nora's point. Arthur finds Muggle inventions fascinating, yet he fails to be any sort of a real authority on them. It's pretty fishy that he obviously has access to Muggleborns who could teach him the workings of electrical devices and yet he hasn't put the opportunity to use. Arthur keeps referring to Muggles in patronizing tones, "bless them," as though they're naive children. The general attitude of the wizarding world in HP is of behind the scenes caretakers trying desperately to keep the lesser beings from falling to their own stupidity. This is a non-canon example but I never get over Mr. Weasley asking Harry the function of a rubber duck in CoS. Come on! The story hinges on a bathroom (plumbing) and a chute hidden under a sink. Yet this guy can't a understand a child's toy? :rolls eyes: As to being appreciative of someone else's interest in one's customs, that lies in the eye of the beholder I s'pose. As an African-American I find nothing more annoying than being put on the spot about my customs. Just doing my hair was a whole a drawn out Q&A session in college. Perhaps a matter of how often, and to what degree one is subjected to unsolicited scrutiny. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 20:04:20 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:04:20 -0000 Subject: "I'm not proud of it" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106918 kbmum wrote: > When did Snape have that chance ? He threatened to give Sirius to the > Dementors and was knocked out by Harry, Ron and Hermione in the > Shrieking Shack. When he came to, outside, he found Sirius, Harry and > Hermione unconscious by the lake. He didn't see the Patronus. He > told Fudge that he had no idea what made the Dementors retreat, and > that they were returning to their positions at the entrances when he > awoke. It's speculation on my part, but I don't think the Dementors > would have immediately returned to the lake after a Patronus chased > them away. Del replies : No, but Snape could have made a little detour by one of the entrances. Nobody was there to prevent him to do that, Sirius, Harry and Hermione were unconscious. He truly *had* a chance to do it. Yet, he didn't do it. Though if you ask me, I think he didn't do it because he knew Fudge would anyway. Del From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jul 19 20:10:04 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:10:04 -0000 Subject: Snape and Dudley In-Reply-To: <20040719164712.18802.qmail@webmail30.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106919 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amey Chinchorkar" wrote: > - Potioncat: > - Looks like Snape and Black both have good reasons to continue to > - dislike each other. But let me point out, when Snape had the > - chance to turn Black over to the Dementors, he didn't. So while he > - threatened it, he didn't do it. > > Amey: > Which chance are you talking about? In PoA or in GoF? Because in PoA: > > "You see, Minister?" said Snape. "Confunded, both of them.... Black's > done a very good job on them...." "WE'RE NOT CONFUNDED!" Harry roared. > > "... only hope Dumbledore's not going to make difficulties," Snape was > saying. "The Kiss will be performed immediately?" > Harry clenched his teeth. He caught a glimpse of Snape's smirk as he and Fudge passed Harry and Hermione's hiding place. > > Isn't that enough proof that Snape wanted Sirius dead (nope, not dead, even worse than that . Should I call it undead???). At the end of GoF, when Sirius was with Dumbledore, then he didn't turn him over to the dementors (who were handy) accepted, but I think Dumbledore must have told the truth, or what I really believe that he knew that Sirius was telling the truth all along but didn't want to believe it till forced. Potioncat: Actually I was thinking of PoA. But you've brought up a good point. Let me backtrack a bit. Not too long ago (about a million posts ago) we had a busy thread about why Snape didn't call the Dementors back after he came to on the grounds. Some felt it would be too dangerous for him. Some felt it was because he just wouldn't turn someone over to the Dementors with out a good cause. The thread ended with the typical lack of resolution, but with lots of good dialogue! Part 1. In the shack he says Black and Lupin will be going to Azkaban then threatens to deliver Lupin and Black to the Dementors. Part 2. Snape comes to, sees the Dementors going away. He gathers the injured and takes them to the Castle. He does not call the Dementors back nor leave Black for them. I am however, now having to look at part 3 of the story...Snape's rection in the hospital wing. He does very much want Black "kissed." Doesn't he? I certainly can't deny that. But he did bring Black in, turning him over to DD and Fudge. (Who in PoA is still the official head of government.) That's what Black and Lupin wanted all along. But at this point, Snape does still think Black is a murderer. And he does back down at DD's word. And it doesn't appear that DD holds any ill feeling toward Snape for his reaction. Boy, I really hate it that they cut this from the movie!!!!!! Potioncat From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Jul 19 20:12:07 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:12:07 -0000 Subject: In defense of considering pureblood preference racism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106920 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Nora Renka" wrote: > > But it's only (in canon so far) the DEs and like-thinking people who > have the idea that Muggleborns are not ONLY cultural different (a > charge with some validity, although a limited applicability), but > inherently different. > > I respectfully submit to you that JKR has taken great pains with her > language to indicate that the DEs are thinking in essentialist terms-- > you are what you are. > > I also submit that JKR has made it very clear that blood in the sense > that the DEs have formulated it has no ontological reality. There's > no magical test for being pureblooded, you don't get any seekrit > powerz, etc. > > If the rest of the WW is able to separate Muggleborns from Muggles, > the attitude of the DEs and people like Fudge who think in terms of > blood as well is shown up for being the essentialist definition that > it is. And essentialism is the key figure in considering this akin > to racism. > > Why is Slytherin House more associated with the Dark Arts? Because, > IMO, the Dark Arts in JKR's universe are fundamentally defined by > their exploitative nature. The three Unforgiveables destroy the > subjectivity of a person, and the resurrection ritual involved a > whole lotta force and non-consent. > > The essence of Dark Magic is that if you want something, go and take > it, because you can. > snip> Um. Where to start? Not that I don't agree that prejudice looms large in the Potterverse, it most definitely does. But race-linked prejudice, that I'm not so sure about. One of the problems is that everybody knows about racism, but other forms of prejudice tend to get forgotten, just because they're not so evident in our own society; not so evident doesn't mean they don't exist. JKR goes to great pains to include a spread of racial types among the students with no indication that there is any conflict or unpleasantness. In general terms racially motivated hatred requires identifiers that can be easily picked out. This isn't so easy in the WW - although I did once theorise that any adult pureblood would never be seen in any other clothes except robes (Madam Malkin - robes for *all* occasions) - my emphasis. But on the whole the WW is presented as racially harmonious. Except of course for Muggles and Mudbloods. But are they a race? I don't think so - I think that what we have here is a caste system. And in a caste system racial origins don't count for much, but one's inherited status in society does. By virtue of bloodlines one caste rules - always (until they're knocked off) and other castes are designated as hewers of wood and drawers of water - and they'd better learn to like it! Or else! Make no mistake, an hierarchy of castes can be just as nasty as any other kind of prejudice, in some ways even more so, because those at the bottom of the pile aren't just there to be despised, they're there to be *used* at the whim of those higher up the ladder. That's the effect of an entrenched caste system, no matter what name you call it by - feudalism or religion or class. And this attitude is more widespread than just DEs and Slytherins. Remember Mr Roberts? Poor bloody farmer whose fields were the venue for the World Cup? Nobody bothered in the slightest that his memory blasted every few hours. He was considered as a nuisiance more than anything else - he was being used. So by the way, are the Dursleys, at least as far as we can tell. A cuckoo is dumped in their nest - no choices are offered; "You will do this." Of course in the WW purebloods are on a hiding to nothing, drawing their pathetic rags of justification around themselves, because for the system to become full-blown it requires that power be centralised in the higher castes - and it isn't. Magic is a highly personal, integral power that cannot be cancelled once it has manifested itself. "Power grows out of the tip of a wand" - to paraphrase a RW mass murderer. So mudbloods can laugh at the pretentions of purebloods; they will not be imposed upon. Muggles are still losers - at least for now. But if the WW maintains or even intensifies it's separation from the Muggle world, that will become moot. It'll be interesting to see what happens. Kneasy From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 20:21:05 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:21:05 -0000 Subject: Snape and Dudley In-Reply-To: <20040719164712.18802.qmail@webmail30.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106921 Amey Chinchorkar wrote : > Or is it that even if the family does know about magic, even overage > wizards are not supposed to do it in front of them according to > statute? Del replies : Huh, I hope not. Or at least I hope there's a special authorisation for those people who marry Muggles (rare, I know), or simply for the Muggle-borns (much more common). Can you imagine inviting your Muggle parents or in-laws in your home where everything is run by magic, and yet having to restrain from using it ? That would be very hard, especially since you couldn't even use electricity as a temporary replacement. Amey wrote : > As for Gred and Forge (I love these names) giving Dudders the > ten-toungue toffee it was more misuse of muggle artifacts (or not > even *muggle* as wizards also have them). Del replies : As you say, those toffees weren't Muggle, they were wizard-made. But I guess that technically Gred and Forge could have earned a reprimand, for leaving a magical object within the reach of Muggles. What if one of them had rolled somewhere where Dudley didn't find it, but the little son of the next potential client of Vernon found it ? Highly unlikely given Aunt Petunia's maniacal cleaning, but I hope you get my point. Del, who wonders if all the electrical objects go bonkers each time someone magical visits Mrs Figg, and who hopes that the disturbances don't reach her neighbours' homes :-) From meriaugust at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 20:24:48 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:24:48 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 23: Christmas On The Closed Ward In-Reply-To: <1e9.256bd582.2e2d46a7@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106922 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, sunnylove0 at a... wrote: > ********* > Discussion Questions: > > 1) When Harry thinks that he is a danger to others, why is his first > instinct to go back to Privet Drive? Meri now: I think that Harry still believes to be a place seperate from the WW, despite the attack last summer. At this point, IIRC, Harry still believes that he was possessed by LV, and perhaps he thinks that the Durselys aren't important enough to bother with attacking by possessing Harry. > > 2) Why does Harry ask advice of no one, especially Sirius, whom he trusts > and has gone to before? Meri: Because he's been kept in the dark for the last several months by DD, the one person whom Harry has always been able to trust for the truth. Also I think Harry is starting to think more independently in this book. For the first time he is trying to make descisions on his own. > 3) Why is neither the trio nor the healer suspicious of Bode's plant? Meri: Why should they be? People in hospitals get plants and gifts in the mail all the time. > 4) Why does Alice give Neville the gum wrapper? Is she starting to > recognize him? Is there something strange about the gum, or is it all she has to > give? Meri: I don't know if the Longbottoms are ever going to be able to come out of their insanity, but I think that the bubblegum wrapper is a sign of something. But then again, according to Neville's gran, Alice has given Neville hundreds of them. So perhaps in her past Alice had an addiction to Droobles? Meri From jlawlor at gmail.com Mon Jul 19 18:28:57 2004 From: jlawlor at gmail.com (James Lawlor) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:28:57 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Two weeks worth... DD's curious timing in SS/PS & OOTP... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96773c8804071911287b48a3f8@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106923 Vivian: >It's obvious that Fudge never sent an owl to Harry or DD. But DD's >comment is curious? I don't think that he is lying; I think DD >actually made some kind of mistake (with time?). James: Myself, I think it was just Dumbledore being his shrewd self. He suspected that Fudge might try something like changing the time or venue, perhaps he even suspected that they might bring out the full Wizengamot against him. As for his comment about his mistake, I think it was rather like his confrontation with Lucius in CoS - "One would hope no more of Lord Voldemort's school things end up in innocent hands" (or something to that effect) - not directly accusational, but it gets his point across. - James Lawlor jlawlor at gmail.com From meidbh at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 18:13:49 2004 From: meidbh at yahoo.com (meidbh) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:13:49 -0000 Subject: Let's burn down the Houses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106924 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "demetra1225" wrote: "I do hope that we find out in later books that Snape is doing something behing the scenes to discourage the Slytherins from following the DE path, because otherwise I think that those kids were shortchanged by the whole sorting system." Yes! And I think in his own inimitable way he is. He is a former (we hope!) DE. He played with the really big bad boys and then turned his back on them. He knows the heart of a Slytherin better than they know themselves and he has their respect. As long as they respect him they will notice that it is Dumbledore he defers to and not Voldemort. And as long as that message is loud and clear I think Snape is playing his part in the fight against Evil (despite being a rather nasty, bitter, twisted man). Meidbh :-) From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jul 19 20:37:05 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:37:05 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 23: Christmas On The Closed Ward In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106925 Meri responded to chapter discussion > > > 4) Why does Alice give Neville the gum wrapper? Is she starting > to > > recognize him? Is there something strange about the gum, or is it > all she has to > > give? > > Meri: I don't know if the Longbottoms are ever going to be able to > come out of their insanity, but I think that the bubblegum wrapper is > a sign of something. But then again, according to Neville's gran, > Alice has given Neville hundreds of them. So perhaps in her past > Alice had an addiction to Droobles? > potioncat: I think we will learn that the gum wrappers have an importance.....what you expected me to know what it was? Well, I noticed today, that all the gum wrappers on the desk at JKR's site show GM the U has been folded out. Is that just the poor resolution of my screen? Or does it mean something? Potioncat From entropymail at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 20:42:52 2004 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:42:52 -0000 Subject: Charm (sic) Protection Theory; Was (Re: James gave his life) In-Reply-To: <081401c46d22$295c3180$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106926 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "charme" wrote: > Valky: I did a little hunting and I have discovered that the > > almond shape has actually a *lot* of pagan/celt (ie witches and > > wizards) significance. Just wanted to throw this bit in. I've been looking for it for days, but couldn't remember where I'd seen it. It's from a JKR interview with the BBC in 2000: Q:Now, can I ask you: are there any special wizarding powers in your world that depend on the wizard using their eyes to do something? Bit like-- A:Why do you want to know this? Q:I just vaguely wondered. A:Why? Q:Well because everyone always goes on about how Harry's got Lilly Potter's eyes? A:Aren't you smart? There is something, maybe, coming about that. I'm going to say no more. Very clever. :: Entropy :: From courtaud2002 at hotmail.com Mon Jul 19 11:42:11 2004 From: courtaud2002 at hotmail.com (silvialaura2002) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:42:11 -0000 Subject: Who would love Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106927 Potioncat wrote: > We've had a post before about why so many witches and wizards are > described as having bad teeth when spells seem available to correct > things. My thought is there must be some things that just can't be > changed. I also have a horrible thought about Snape's hair, but I'm > hoping it isnt' true. Delurking just to ask how horrible your thought is... And asking myself if also in the Wizard World crocked and yellow teeth are sign of upbringing in a poor family or of some illness during childhood. Silvia From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jul 19 20:53:36 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:53:36 -0000 Subject: Two weeks worth... DD's curious timing in SS/PS & OOTP... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106928 Vivian wrote: > It's obvious that Fudge never sent an owl to Harry or DD. But DD's > comment is curious? I don't think that he is lying; I think DD > actually made some kind of mistake (with time?). > > What would make someone get to a place earlier than expected? Floo > powder, apparaiting, riding animals, motorcycles, and flying on a > broomstick would not get you to a destination 3 hours early (unless > you left 3 hours early). > How about if it's a miscalculation with time? What if DD is traveling > via some other method, a method that needs to be precisely > calculated. A method that can propel you forward or backward, but if > your not careful miscalculations can occur. > Potioncat: You're suggesting a time turner? What a good idea! Another good idea I've heard is that ESL!Percy may have contacted DD to tip him off. (Don't know if that exists, it's Ever so Loyal) From elizabethleclerc at hotmail.com Mon Jul 19 12:16:57 2004 From: elizabethleclerc at hotmail.com (mrslestrange) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:16:57 -0000 Subject: Stalagmite vs. Stalactite? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106929 Brenda wrote: > I started re-reading the Philosopher's Stone for the second time > (only)... and the same thing that intrigued me the first time > around made me raise my eyebrows again. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > 'I never know,' Harry called to Hagrid over the noise of the > cart, 'what's the difference between a stalagmite and stalactite?' > [PS, 58. UK] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Now, am I the only one who feels this line is quite... out of line? > Why did JKR bother putting this in? Is it important in any > ways? Something to do with all the dungeons we see at Hogwarts and > the Ministry? That's one of my favorite lines, I've always loved it. Because, of course, I too have oft wondered which is which. I thought that this line helped to illustrate Harry's character: you know, thoughtful, observant, affable, and puzzled by those blasted two words that sound so much alike. By the way, I learned the trick: stalaGmites come out of the Ground stalaCtites come out of the Ceiling It would be a riot if this turned out to be important! Cheers, "mrslestrange" From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 20:57:03 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:57:03 -0000 Subject: Why didn't Severus reveal the Prank? (Was: How did Sirius lure Severus...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106930 Neri wrote: James did run after Severus and saved his life. Snape belittles this in the Shack (in PoA), but we know that as late as SS/PS Snape had still considered himself in debt to James. So the shaken 16 yrs old Severus, who had just saw Death in the form of a full-blown werewolf and was dragged back by James, is likely to see it this way even more. Or perhaps it was DD who gently but surely pointed this to him, in the best of DD's style. <<< I (Carol) replied: I think Neri is on the right track here, but I would add that Severus' fear of humiliation is probably the crucial factor. I think Dumbledore probably pointed out to Severus that if he revealed what he knew, not only would the whole school (and probably the WW) know that he had been tricked by Sirius Black, they would know that his life had been saved by the even-more-hated James Potter, to whom he now owed a life debt. o whatever Sirius's punishment would have been, probably expulsion, James would have been viewed as a hero and he, Severus, as a helpless victim. Tempted as he must have been to get revenge by revealing Sirius' perfidy and Lupin's condition, I think the fear of having the wizarding world know that he was dragged to safety by the "heroic" James kept him silent for twenty long years (especially since he also believed, perhaps rightly, that James had been in on the prank, too, but got cold feet and did not deserve to be viewed as a hero). HunterGreen (who is surprised that no one else responded to this post) added: I think this theory makes the most sense out of all the others. I really can't see Snape being the type to respond to a threat, and I don't see Dumbledore as the type to make one. I imagine that after hearing the whole story, and finding out that Snape found out about Lupin being a werewolf, Dumbledore took Snape aside, and spoke to him alone, and asked him not to tell. Yes, I know he was 'forbidden' not to tell according to Lupin, I believe, but they may have only heard that secondhand. Again, I just can't see Snape being intimidated enough to keep his mouth shut, especially about something like this. Humiliation, on the other hand, particularily in his teens, when he's already not all that popular, that would keep him quiet, and what makes it easy to swallow is that Dumbledore wouldn't be involved at all. If Snape took off and told everyone about Werewolf!Lupin, then Sirius or James would immediately spread the WHOLE story of that night around to get revenge. (I know, I know, speculatation, but all within their character). Carol again: Yes, that's exactly what I think. Look at Snape's worst memory--NOT the terror of facing the werewolf but the humiliation of being insulted and treated like a vile and dirty object in the Pensieve scene. I would venture to say that even the adult Snape, who has risked his life for Dumbledore or the cause on various occasions, is more afraid of humiliation than of death. I would very much like to hear from Kneasy, who originally raised, the question, to see whether he regards my explanation as plausible. I (Carol) wrote: So whatever Sirius's punishment would have been, probably expulsion,<< > HunterGreen responded: So, do you think Dumbledore only didn't expell Sirius because he was trying to keep the situation quiet? Carol responds: Yes and no. He certainly was still trying to protect Remus, the only wholly innocent party involved. And I do think he didn't want to ruin Sirius' future. He probably saw him as in great danger, given his background and reckless temperament. Would he have wanted an enraged and possibly violent boy at large in the WW? I wouldn't have in his place. But I wasn't thinking of that so much as the fact that what could have happened didn't. No one died; no one was injured; Severus wasn't turned into a werewolf. Dumbledore couldn't prove intent to murder on Sirius' part, and to do so would ruin his life and that of the innocent Remus. And what he could have proven, reckless endangerment, is not nearly so serious an offense. So my short answer is, if Remus had bitten Severus, DD would have had no choice but to expel both Remus and Sirius. As it is, he operated on his usual "second chance" principle and allowed them both to remain. But if the story had gotten out, I don't think he'd have been allowed to do that. Severus' parents and maybe the parents in general, would have demanded Sirius' head on a platter (figuratively speaking) and Dumbledore's with it. So self-preservation plays a role in Dumbledore's silence, too. It would be an interesting twist if the young Severus, who at that time was preumably on "our side" (he couldn't very well "return to our side" before Voldemort's fall if he wasn't originally there) was trying to protect Dumbledore's position as headmaster as well as his own reputation by remaining silent about the Prank! Carol, waiting to hear from Kneasy and Neri on the humiliation portion of this theory From lszydlowski at hotmail.com Mon Jul 19 12:20:22 2004 From: lszydlowski at hotmail.com (szydlowskil) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:20:22 -0000 Subject: Prefects Who Gained Power In-Reply-To: <20040717024245.62216.qmail@web53409.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106931 aboutthe1910s wrote: > In Chamber of Secrets, Percy's reading a book called "Prefects Who > Gained Power: A study of Hogwarts prefects and their later careers"... Since Percy was seen reading that book on the same day Ginny was slipped Tom Riddle's diary, I have had concern about Percy's future... "szydlowskil" From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jul 19 20:57:55 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:57:55 -0000 Subject: Let's burn down the Houses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106932 Demetra 1225 wrote: > "I do hope that we find out in later books that Snape is doing > something behing the scenes to discourage the Slytherins from > following the DE path, because otherwise I think that those kids > were shortchanged by the whole sorting system." Meidbh wrote: > Yes! And I think in his own inimitable way he is. He is a former (we > hope!) DE. He played with the really big bad boys and then turned > his back on them. He knows the heart of a Slytherin better than they > know themselves and he has their respect. As long as they respect > him they will notice that it is Dumbledore he defers to and not > Voldemort. And as long as that message is loud and clear I think > Snape is playing his part in the fight against Evil (despite being a rather nasty, bitter, twisted man). Potioncat: But where is the canon that would show that? We don't ever see him correcting a Slytherin, much less doing anything to turn them from DE philosophy. That bothers me more than his "mistreatment" of Harry and Neville. For that matter, we don't see anyone trying to direct the Slytherins! From annettehamel at hotmail.com Mon Jul 19 15:23:14 2004 From: annettehamel at hotmail.com (Annette Hamel) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 15:23:14 +0000 Subject: JKR -- adverbs & adjectives (was Re: Charm (sic) Protection Theory) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106933 charme wrote: <> He does hate overuse of adjectives, but rants most about *adverbs*, and I too feel that JKR overuses these a bit. Adverbs are those -ly words, and JKR loves them ... "Hermione said briskly" comes to mind (Hermione seems to say everything "briskly"). In King's book, he states his opinion that writers should lose the adverbs and find another way to state it - rather than "he said angrily" you could say "he shouted", or just "he said" - the context should tell you that he was angry. I love JKR, love the books, but sometimes I feel if I read one more "Hermione said briskly", I'll scream! :) Annette =^..^= From patientx3 at aol.com Mon Jul 19 21:11:19 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:11:19 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 23: Christmas On The Closed Ward In-Reply-To: <1e9.256bd582.2e2d46a7@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106934 >>1) When Harry thinks that he is a danger to others, why is his first instinct to go back to Privet Drive?<< HunterGreen: Because he'll be 'safe' there. He won't be able to do any magic, since he's outside of school and the MoM would catch him, and he'd be very far away from anyone he worries about attacking. Also, I'm not sure how the protection works, but I wonder if it still has any meaning to Voldemort? Perhaps he can attack Harry, but could he actually go into Privet Drive? (personally, I've always got the feeling that being in the house protects Harry absolutely). >> 2) Why does Harry ask advice of no one, especially Sirius, whom he trusts and has gone to before? << He did go to Sirius, he just didn't find it very helpful. He went to Sirius before they visited Arthur in the hospital, and (essentially), Sirius just told him to not worry about it, and if it was something to worry about Dumbledore would have told him. I think that Sirius underestimates how much Harry would obsess about this (and oddly enough HE doesn't go to Harry after Harry shuts himself off from everyone). I think that Sirius cares about Harry a lot, but doesn't know him very well. Harry probably didn't seek him out again because he thought he'd get the same answer. Also, Harry at this point in the book, was more interested in wallowing in misery than going to anyone for help. From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jul 19 21:14:46 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:14:46 -0000 Subject: Who would love Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106935 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "silvialaura2002" Hi, I'm not sure that I want to post this for the list, so I'm answering you off list. I once came up with idea that Snape is a cockroach animagus and posted it about a year ago. It was before I was familiar with checking canon first and there was a major canon flaw to my idea. (Thank goodness!) But there is canon support for it as well. One of the things that keeps haunting me about that idea, is that cockroaches have an oily protective coating. The strongest argument against it is that cockroaches don't like the cold. And Snape's dungeon is always cold. Kathy wrote: > Potioncat wrote: > > > We've had a post before about why so many witches and wizards are > > described as having bad teeth when spells seem available to correct > > things. My thought is there must be some things that just can't be > > changed. I also have a horrible thought about Snape's hair, but I'm > > hoping it isnt' true. > > > Delurking just to ask how horrible your thought is... And asking > myself if also in the Wizard World crocked and yellow teeth are sign > of upbringing in a poor family or of some illness during childhood. > > Silvia From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jul 19 21:16:34 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:16:34 -0000 Subject: Who would love Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106936 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "silvialaura2002" > Hi, > I'm not sure that I want to post this for the list, so I'm answering > you off list. Potioncat: I really did not mean to bring this up again! Going away to iron the finger that hit send instead of edit. Potioncat From sherriola at earthlink.net Mon Jul 19 21:18:01 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 15:18:01 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR -- adverbs & adjectives (was Re: Charm (sic) Protection Theory) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00b501c46dd5$e043ae10$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 106937 He does hate overuse of adjectives, but rants most about *adverbs*, and I too feel that JKR overuses these a bit. Adverbs are those -ly words, and JKR loves them ... "Hermione said briskly" comes to mind (Hermione seems to say everything "briskly"). In King's book, he states his opinion that writers should lose the adverbs and find another way to state it - rather than "he said angrily" you could say "he shouted", or just "he said" - the context should tell you that he was angry. I love JKR, love the books, but sometimes I feel if I read one more "Hermione said briskly", I'll scream! :) Annette Sherry now The one that gets me is that at some time or other every character snarls. and they snarl repeatedly. Ok, I don't think Dumbledore snarls, but the books are full of many other characters snarling. always makes me want to snarl. Sherry g From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 21:21:30 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:21:30 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 23: Christmas On The Closed Ward In-Reply-To: <1e9.256bd582.2e2d46a7@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106938 > 1) When Harry thinks that he is a danger to others, why is his first > instinct to go back to Privet Drive? Del replies : Actually, his first instinct is to go to Hogwarts. I think Harry just wants to go *home*. He is highly distressed and convinced that he's putting his friends in danger. So his natural reaction is "Harry go home". But when thinking about Hogwarts, he realises that there are other students he could hurt there. That's when he settles on Privet Drive. I guess he figures LV wouldn't be interested in killing the Dursleys, or else he doesn't care, because what he wants is a *place* to go to, not people. > 2) Why does Harry ask advice of no one, especially Sirius, whom he > trusts and has gone to before? Del replies : Because he's gone completely paranoid. He's not thinking straight anymore. He completely misinterprets everything people are doing around him (Ron goes down without him ? That's because he's afraid of being alone in a room with him), and he's completely convinced nobody wants to talk to him and everybody is mortally afraid of him. And he can't even blame them because he too thinks that he's a danger for everyone. Paranoia and delusion, born of too much pressure and too little information. > 3) Why is neither the trio nor the healer suspicious of Bode's plant? The healer : it must have been a while since she last saw a devil's snare. The Trio : even when confronted to the full-grown version of it, it took Hermione a while to identify it, in PS/SS. Sadly ironically though, there *was* in the room someone very good at Herbology who might have identified the plant for what it was. But poor Neville was thinking of something else entirely. By the way, that scene always makes me want to cry : the way Gran doesn't understand *anything* about Neville, the way Neville keeps looking at the ceiling (I usually do that to avoid crying...), the way he dares replying to her accusations, and of course the way Alice comes and gives him the gum wrapper and he takes it. I find Neville amazingly mature on that matter : I think he really isn't ashamed of his parents, but he doesn't want to talk about them to his friends because it is something so incredibly *personal*, so personal that he won't even *try* to explain it to his Gran. I hope he talks with someone though, maybe Uncle Algie ? > 4) Why does Alice give Neville the gum wrapper? Is she starting to > recognize him? Is there something strange about the gum, or is it > all she has to give? Your guess is as good as any :-) One possibility I like is that she gives them to Neville because it's Neville who gives the gums to her in the first place. Maybe Neville learned from Uncle Algie that his mom was a Drooble Gum addict, so he started early on to give them her favourite treats as a way to tell her he loved her. And now she's giving them back to him as a way to tell him she loves him too. The gums wrappers would be a *symbol* of the love they have for each other but that they can't share any other way. I have of course not a single shred of canon to support my theory. I just *like* the idea. Del From xtremesk8ergurl2 at aol.com Mon Jul 19 16:39:30 2004 From: xtremesk8ergurl2 at aol.com (xtremesk8ergurl2 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:39:30 EDT Subject: Let's burn down the houses Message-ID: <75.2ea93950.2e2d5342@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106939 Del writes: >> Yes, I understand and I agree with that *in theory*. But when one of the flavours is Dark Arts, I don't think the choice is healthy. If I had 4 kids and someone offered them free ice-creams but I was told than one of the kids *will* end up with an ear wax flavoured ice-cream, I would simply *refuse* the offer. << I don't get the impression that Slytherin favors the Dark Arts, it's just that the nature of the type of student tends to be attracted to the Dark Arts (cunning, ambitious, I even view Slytherins as a tad impulsive). "xtremesk8ergurl2" From TheLilliecat at hotmail.com Mon Jul 19 17:15:31 2004 From: TheLilliecat at hotmail.com (Nikki Caruso) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:15:31 -0400 Subject: Stalagmites & stalagtites? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106940 Valky writes: >Maybe the significance is not in the question but the answer. >Hagrid says "Stalagmites got an 'm' in it" >What are some m words that may be relevant: > >Muggle, Magic, Mother, Mudblood... any more? Hmm... Maybe it there's no big clue or meaning hidden in the question and it was simply put in there for humor? I mean really - how many (average) people know the difference between a stalagmite and a stalagtite without having looked it up at some point in order to know the difference?? lol Just a nice, funny line for a bit of garnish. ~Nikki From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Mon Jul 19 21:40:14 2004 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:40:14 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Stalagmite vs. Stalactite? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106941 "mrslestrange" observed: >By the way, I learned the trick: >stalaGmites come out of the Ground >stalaCtites come out of the Ceiling whereas I learned that "A stalactite sticks tight to the ceiling." But I think it's probably not important, but only an example of conversation between Harry and Hagrid. Unless, of course, we end up with a battle in and around Gringott's, with only Dumbledore's scar in the shape of the London Underground as a guide. :) Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 21:45:08 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:45:08 -0000 Subject: Let's burn down the houses In-Reply-To: <75.2ea93950.2e2d5342@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106942 xtremesk8ergurl2 wrote: > I don't get the impression that Slytherin favors the Dark Arts, it's > just that the nature of the type of student tends to be attracted to > the Dark Arts (cunning, ambitious, I even view Slytherins as a tad > impulsive). Del replies : Slytherin House might not *officially* favour the Dark Arts, but it certainly doesn't refrain them either, unlike the other Houses. And it was always associated with the darker side of magic, right back from Salazar Slytherin, who was famous for being a Parselmouth. If I were Headmistress of a school where one House is reputed for spawning large numbers of dark wizards, and where many students of said House came from families that don't exactly mind the Dark Arts, I would make sure that the students of that House receive special instruction about why the Dark Arts are not the way to go. But we don't see that the Slytherins are discouraged *in any way* from choosing the Dark Arts if they wish (which too many of them do as a result of their natural ambition). In fact, I'd say that appointing as their Head of House someone who was always neck-deep in the Dark Arts throughout his youth, and who ended up being accused of being a DE, might actually be considered as an *encouragement* for the kids to pursue the Dark Arts. Unless said Head of House actively worked at convincing his students that he had been wrong and that they must not follow in his footsteps. But we don't see that happening, and I have a feeling that if Snape was doing that, Lucius Malfoy would not be so taken with him. But still I sure hope he does. Del From reyakittens at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 17:33:48 2004 From: reyakittens at yahoo.com (tamuril elensar) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:33:48 -0000 Subject: Snape and Dudley In-Reply-To: <20040719164712.18802.qmail@webmail30.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106943 - Tammy: - Why would the MOM bother with someone performing magic in front - of immediate Muggle family who already knew about the WW? There'd - be no reason to, you're absolutely right, Ariston. Amey: > 'Keep your wand out,' she told Harry, as they entered Wisteria > Walk. 'Never mind the Statute of Secrecy now, there's going to be > hell to pay anyway, we might as well be hanged for a dragon as an > egg. Talk about the Reasonable Restriction of Underage Sorcery ' > (A Peck of Owls . OOtP) > > Why was Mrs. Figg worried about the Statute of Secrecy?? Was she > expecting some more trouble? << Robyn-> The Statue of Secrecy is something all the wizards (and squibs) know about. They all know how important it is to uphold this and how much trouble one can get into for disregarding it. What Figg was saying was essentially we have to protect ourselves against the scary dementors or whatever else there might be, don't worry about anyone knowing we know magic. She recognized however that there is a very important Statue. After seeing two dementors, yeah she may have been expecting more trouble I would not be 100% sure that the coast was clear. Amey: > Does not mention that the charm was done in front of Dudley, who is > a muggle (but being family, he must not be included in Statute of > Secrecy). Or is it that even if the family does know about magic, > even overage wizards are not supposed to do it in front of them > according to statute? Robyn->I think it's because the magic wasn't performed in Dudley's bedroom, it was on the street where anyone could see and hear. Amey: > can't say how Arthur got away with demolishing the entire fireplace > of Dursleys. Robyn->again, done in front of people who know and in their house. Not done in front of the Dursely's and 10 other guests. - Jen: Well, Harry tells him a few pages earlier, in no uncertain - terms, "DUDLEY, KEEP YOUUR MOUTH SHUT! WHATEVER YOU DO...." (OOTP, - US, chap. 1, p.17). - I do think he listened to and believed Harry in this situation, - despite telling his parents later that Harry was to blame. He surely - heard the total fear in Harry's voice and even Dudley probably - recongnized, like Harry, that Harry wasn't powerful enough to block - the stars, moon, etc. Amey: > Since when Dudley heard to Harry so much? I mean, it looks suspicious, > doesn't it? Even Petunia knew about the dementors (though she didn't > know anything about the Kiss), and given the fact that somebody is > going to awaken his/her magical powers late in life (how late is open > to speculation), looks highly suspicious. Robyn->I think there is something else going on here besides him listening to Harry maybe he was just scared out of his mind and covered his face hiding from whatever was in front of him when I watch horror movies I sometimes cover my face as not to see. I don't think Dudley had a clue what anyone was saying as he was in shock and was scared. From meidbh at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 18:14:51 2004 From: meidbh at yahoo.com (meidbh) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:14:51 -0000 Subject: Let's burn down the Houses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106944 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: "After all, if Snape and Draco had been Sorted into Gryffindor instead of Slytherin, they would most probably not have become as insufferable as they did, and they wouldn't have been such good arch- enemies to James and Harry, right?" Possibly - but then where would be be with our epic tale of Good vs. Evil? No Slytherin, no Dark arts, no Voldemort - no story! Meidbh :-) From meidbh at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 18:25:12 2004 From: meidbh at yahoo.com (meidbh) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:25:12 -0000 Subject: New JKR FAQ Poll: Which is significant? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106945 Stefanie wrote: "Stefanie ponders: Looking at JKR's new FAQ poll on her website, and looking at what canon has to offer us, which option do you think would help us the most? 1) Is Percy working undercover for any secret organization/boss?// 2) Where has Peter Pettigrew (Wormtail) been since the end of 'Goblet of Fire'?// 3) What did Dumbledore's Howler to Aunt Petunia mean? ('Remember my last'?)" Percy and Peter are followers and mostly significant in relation to the people who pull their strings. They only seem to manage to be interesting by accident. I do believe that Dumbledore on the other hand holds the answers to many questions behind his half moon specs. If we knew but some of what Dumbledore knows I think we'd see the picture much more clearly ;-) Meidbh From garybec101 at comcast.net Mon Jul 19 21:54:47 2004 From: garybec101 at comcast.net (garybec101 at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:54:47 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mothers and Fathers (was: Re: James gave his life, why no protection from him?) Message-ID: <071920042154.8225.40FC43260005899D000020212200763704CECFCE0C0A0D979D0E09@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 106947 > > Becki's thought; > > > > Perhaps it goes to the saying that there is no stronger love than a > > mother has for her child. > > Iggy here: > > I dunno... I've always had a problem with that statement... especially since > becoming a father. Love a father shows may come across differently than > that a mother shows, but I don't feel that it's any less than a mothers by > so much as a single mote. Society teaches us that fathers are supposed to > show love in the "paternal" form, and mothers show it in the "maernal" form. > The paternal form of love is often expressed in providing for, caring for, > and protecting. The maternal form is often depicted as nurturing, feeding, > and soothing. While they may take separate paths, I do not see how a > mother's love is greater than a father's. (And yes, some may argue that it > is because a baby resides within its mother's body for nine months... but > that is a matter of biology, and not emotion. There are many instances in > the animal kingdom where a baby is abandoned to fend on its own by the > mother without a second thought... and other instances where the father is > the one that cares for the eggs and the infants... penguins and seahorses > come most readily to mind there.) > Iggy here (again): of a "crazed/cold revenge" angle.) Iggy here (again): I should also point out that I would give up my life in a heartbeat to protect my daughter as well. This seems to mean less in most cultures because men are EXPECTED to give their lives for family, country, and their faith/religion. Women aren't expected to, so it's seen as a much more noble sacrifice. That's not to downplay the importance of a mother's sacrifice, but merely to point out that a man's is downplayed because society expects it... even though it's still just as strong a sacrifice. Becki's Back Hi Iggy; I am sorry I had to snip so much of your post, I only wanted to address this one topic. First I want you to know that I didn't mean to imply that a Mothers love is better or deeper than a Fathers love for a child. Like you said, I do believe it is different. Perhaps the ancient magic that Dumbledore talks about is in a more literal sense, blood. Harry is safe where his mothers blood dwells. A baby gets it's DNA 1/2 from Mom and 1/2 from Dad, however, while the baby is in the womb, her blood is literally running through his veins. Could that be why even though James made the same sacrifice, it is Lily's that is the sealer. Becki [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From anmsmom333 at cox.net Mon Jul 19 20:59:33 2004 From: anmsmom333 at cox.net (Theresa) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:59:33 -0000 Subject: Mothers and Fathers (was: Re: James gave his life, why no protection from him?) In-Reply-To: <008d01c46dc2$5e568cf0$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106948 Wow, Iggy and Sherry both of your post truly touched me. Sherry, your dad sounds brilliant. No wonder you are too (you are actually one of my favorite posters to read on this list). I am always amazed when fathers are unafraid to show their warm and fuzzy side. I know plenty of fathers that show their unconditional love for their children quite often - I even married one. To get back to canon though...I have always felt it was not necessarily the fact that it was a mother's love so to speak that protected Harry, but that Lily did something that needed love as an "ingredient" so to speak. It just seems too simple for it to just be just that she loved Harry. Also, sorry my books are at home and I am quickly finishing this at work, but Voldemort mentions something about ancient magic he had forgotten while in the graveyard. I think Lily being the clever witch that everyone always seems to describe somehow transferred some of her love to protect Harry as she died. I don't know how but I think she did it as she died and it worked for her because she was near Harry and that James being somewhere else in the house was unable to do so due to not being near. And he might not have been as clever as Lily. I think James and Lily both loved Harry dearly and it was NOT merely the simple - 'your mother loved you so that protected you' with no ancient magic at all. It is just a theory of mine that may be blasted out of the water but it is how I have thought since reading the graveyard scene in GOF. On the flip side - JKR was quite close to her mother so she may very well make it Lily's love with no spell or magic simply protected him. I just think there is more to it than that. Theresa From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 21:58:49 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:58:49 -0000 Subject: Stalagmite vs. Stalactite? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106949 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > 'I never know,' Harry called to Hagrid over the noise of the > > cart, 'what's the difference between a stalagmite and stalactite?' > > [PS, 58. UK] > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Valky commented : > Maybe the significance is not in the question but the answer. > Hagrid says "Stalagmites got an 'm' in it" and then went off in wondering whether a word starting with an "m" might become important later on. Del sighs, shakes her head and replies : Valky, Valky, Valky... You were so close ! You did notice that what was important was Hagrid's answer, but you completely misunderstood why. What Hagrid reveals in his answer is that he speaks French ! For you see, that's exactly how I've been taught to recognise stalagmite from stalactite : Les stalagMites Montent (climb) Les stalacTites Tombent (fall) Now why is it important that Hagrid secretly speaks French ? I can think of a few ideas... Del ps : in case anyone has any doubt : I'm joking :-) But the method for distinguishing between stalagmite and stalactite in French is genuine. From rebekarg at yahoo.com.br Mon Jul 19 18:37:01 2004 From: rebekarg at yahoo.com.br (=?iso-8859-1?q?Rebeka=20Gomes?=) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 15:37:01 -0300 (ART) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Statute of Secrecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040719183701.56712.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106950 ariston3344 escreveu: --------------------------------- Here's my latest nitpicky question: when Harry casts the Patronus in OotP to save himself and Dudley, why does the MoM make a big deal about the fact that he did this in front of a Muggle (Dudley)? This is mentioned in the letter he gets from the MoM, and Fudge even goes out of his way to emphasize this at the hearing. If the *main* issue was that Harry was underage, that's fine as far as it goes... but then why bring up the fact that Dudley is a Muggle at all? It just doesn't seem relevant. ---------------------------------- Rebeka: That got me too... The only explanation I got from the chapter was that Fudge tried to use everything, even a lame excuse as that, to demoralize Harry before the WW. ===== ~Rebeka From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 19 22:00:26 2004 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 23:00:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Books 6 & 7 In-Reply-To: <40FBF59C.1070201@tds.net> Message-ID: <20040719220026.16529.qmail@web25103.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106951 Hans Andra wrote: > 4 Ron and Hermione will die by decapitation but will live on or live again > in Harry through the alchemical process. 90% In response squeakinby wrote: In a "children's book" given that innocent people are actually being decapitated by insane terrorists in the world NOW??? JKR would have be mad! Certainty of this scenario not happening 100% Jem Hans' response to Jem's post: Thanks for your reaction. However it was a knee-jerk one as I think you'll have to admit. This came from the heart rather than the head (referring to my explanation in point 2). 1. Book 7 might take another 4 or 5 years to appear. Today's atrocities will be forgotten by then and replaced by something else, probably worse. 2. Harry Potter is not a children's book. The septology is for all of humanity. Children are open to liberating truths and so they started reading it first. However this book is for everyone. 3. In any case the characters by then will be nearly 18 - adults. The writing has grown with the characters. By book 7 I should think it will be totally adult. 4. Jo can't change the story now even if she wants to. She has stated categorically that she can't - all the clues are laid, the core essence is set. If an event in the book that was planned back in 1980 happens to coincide with a world event today, or in 2008, there's not much she can do about it now. 5. Just because John the Baptist was beheaded do we stop printing the Bible because terrorists are doing this today? The message in Harry Potter is as timeless as the Bible. 6. The decapitation I'm talking about is a symbolical one. No one's really being killed. I trust Jo's ability to make this meaningful and acceptable, as everything else has been. 7. I said they'd be decapitated - I didn't say they'd be executed. Perhaps the decapitation will happen some other way. Perhaps by magic, perhaps by some accident, I just don't know. 8. The death is primary, the decapitation is secondary. If I had to split the probabilities here I'd say death 95%, decapitation 85%. Perhaps they'll die some other way, though a powerful symbolism would be lost. 9. There are two other pointers to decapitation I haven't included in my original post: A. The decapitation of the wizard in the fountain in the atrium of the MoM. B. The decapitation of Darnay in "A Tale of Two Cities", by Charles Dickens. Jo has stated that this is her favourite book ending. I hope I've succeeded in making my scenario seem less unlikely. With respect and warm regards, Hans in Holland ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From conart714 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 19:01:16 2004 From: conart714 at yahoo.com (Free Soul) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 19:01:16 -0000 Subject: Snape, Voldemort, and Dumbledore (Vampire?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106952 Well we all know that Snape was a death eater at some point, but could he have been the one who made all the live forever potions for Voldemort to take? If so, is that why Dumbledore keeps him around? I still believe Harry will kill Voldemort but maybe Snape plays a big part in it in one way or another. Snape does say in Sorcerer's Stone that he can even put a stopper to death. Or maybe that goes to another theory, is Snape a vampire? Is that how he can put a stopper to death? If Snape is a vampire maybe that is the reason Voldemort hasn't killed him. Voldemort could have made him become one for certain reasons; show loyalty or maybe to use his own blood to make Voldemort's live forever potion? I honestly never thought once about him being a vampire, but now I have to admit after reading some theories such as the Snape always getting called a bat and a part I never noticed (which I beat myself up for for not noticing, but that's why I have you guys) where Lupin assigns a vampire chapter and tells Snape about it and now my theory listed above, I am now more than ever driving myself crazy. "Free Soul" From meidbh at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 21:14:20 2004 From: meidbh at yahoo.com (meidbh) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:14:20 -0000 Subject: Who would love Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106953 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "silvialaura2002" "Delurking just to ask how horrible your thought is... And asking myself if also in the Wizard World crocked and yellow teeth are sign of upbringing in a poor family or of some illness during childhood." In Britain crooked and yellow teeth are pretty common among families of all types! Cosmetic dentistry just isn't seen as much of a priority by most people. If teeth are clean and without cavities they're usually considered fine. Americans are often shocked by this attitude while Brits are amazed at how successfully US dentists have marketed the "necessity" of the perfect smile! Wouldn't read too much into it. Meidbh :-) From aleesahn at earthlink.net Mon Jul 19 20:55:12 2004 From: aleesahn at earthlink.net (aleesahn) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:55:12 -0000 Subject: New JKR FAQ Poll: Which is significant? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106954 > Stefanie wrote: > Looking at JKR's new FAQ poll on her website, and looking as what > canon has to offer us, which option do you think would help us the > most? <> > //3) What did Dumbledore's Howler to Aunt Petunia mean? ('Remember > my last'?)// Aleesahn writes: I vote for number three! This was one of the top five mysteries I would want to solve if I could cheat a little on the HP series POV (getting into other character's heads for a peek)- something I explained in post 106606. The answer to the third question could explain what was in the letter DD tucked into Harry's baby basket in the opening of PS/SS. Was a bargain struck between DD and Petunia? Did Petunia receive any protection for Dudley through this transaction (or even some help in supressing Dudely's latent magical power- if there is any to suspress?) An answer to this question could also shine more light on the charm Lily cast to protect Harry. How did it work, and what role does Petunia play in its effectiveness? I hope the third question gets picked! -Aleesahn From jacobalfredo at hotmail.com Mon Jul 19 21:24:21 2004 From: jacobalfredo at hotmail.com (albusthewhite) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:24:21 -0000 Subject: New JKR FAQ Poll: Which is significant? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106955 Stefanie wrote: > Looking at JKR's new FAQ poll on her website, and looking at what > canon has to offer us, which option do you think would help us the > most? > > //1) Is Percy working undercover for any secret organization/boss?// ... > //2) Where has Peter Pettigrew (Wormtail) been since the end > of 'Goblet of Fire'?// ... > //3) What did Dumbledore's Howler to Aunt Petunia mean? ('Remember > my last'?)// Albus the White: Well, I'm with you on voting for #3. I don't think that Peter's *whereabouts* are going to be significant (tho' Peter himself likely will be). And Percy is just a misguided chump - and I hope that there's a tearful apology (aka "I'm a moron") scene in HBP! I'm for the explanation of the Howler because that's the only one I can't come up with a good answer for myself (even if I'm wrong about the others!). There's always been a definite question lurking in my mind about that Howler - "my last" what? - but not behind the other two. I haven't ever wondered about either of them! It seems that most people are in the same boat, because #3 has a huge early lead in the poll. -albus the white From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Mon Jul 19 22:12:37 2004 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 22:12:37 -0000 Subject: The Potion Puzzle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106956 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dcgmck" wrote: > In any event, the comment about James as Seeker is > only in the film. The first volume just says he was > an excellent player, while Snape's memory invites the > inference that James is a seeker because of the > snitch he carries. His actual position has not been > identified in the books, as far as I can remember or > find. This is a frequently revisited topic, and you are correct there is nothing explicit on the subject in the books. The source for the statement that James was a chaser is an Internet chat in which Rowling was asked the question. You can find the transcript at Quick Quotes: http://tinyurl.com/64wuo -- Matt From griffin782002 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 21:47:08 2004 From: griffin782002 at yahoo.com (sp. sot.) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 14:47:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New JKR FAQ Poll: Which is significant? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040719214708.31399.qmail@web90008.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106957 Stefanie wrote: > Looking at JKR's new FAQ poll on her website, and looking at what > canon has to offer us, which option do you think would help us the > most? > 3) What did Dumbledore's Howler to Aunt Petunia mean? ('Remember > my last'?) Griffin782002 now: I voted for the third option, which has taken most votes. I hope it will be proved which more important than Mark Evans. Actually I didn't vote in the last poll. Griffin782002 From xtremesk8ergurl2 at aol.com Mon Jul 19 16:36:44 2004 From: xtremesk8ergurl2 at aol.com (xtremesk8ergurl2 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:36:44 EDT Subject: House rivalries (was Re:Snape's Logic and houses) Message-ID: <1d1.262d3a12.2e2d529c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106958 Potioncat writes: >> I suspect that each student thinks his House is best. And probably sees the negative aspects of the other Houses. A brave Hufflepuff may see himself as a loyal, brave person and be glad that he is not reckless like a Gryffindor. (For example.) << It's funny because I'm off to college in a few weeks, and there's rivalry between the different houses that where they reside is the best. It's funny because it reminds me of HP. Anyway, they put all the honors students in separate houses at my school, and I'm an honors student, I just keep thinking...I'M in RAVENCLAW!! It's obvious that Gryffindor and Slytherin are rivals. I often wonder if any other houses have rivalry as intense that we just don't see because we're seeing it from Harry's perspective? "xtremesk8ergurl2" From elizabethleclerc at hotmail.com Mon Jul 19 13:00:13 2004 From: elizabethleclerc at hotmail.com (mrslestrange) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:00:13 -0000 Subject: Dudley Demented (???) In-Reply-To: <20040719105813.1815.qmail@webmail9.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106959 Amey wrote: > I was reading OOtP for some nth time for clues for HBP and came across this: > > He had run barely a dozen steps when he reached them: Dudley was curled up on the ground, his arms clamped over his face. A second Dementor was crouching low over him, gripping his wrists in its slimy hands, prising them slowly almost lovingly apart, lowering its hooded head towards Dudley's face as though about to kiss him. (Dudley Demented, OOtP) > > "Arms clamped over his face"??? Why? How should he know that the Dementor is going to kiss him? From what he says later, he didn't see the dementor, then how does he know to cover his face??? >>> YES!!!! And why do they go after him, anyway? I thought they were supposed to be precision instruments, unless you were trying to block them from who they were after. I'm getting this from the PoA movie, however, so it's possibly not canon. Why would Umbridge sic them on Dudders? Also: (Dudley) "Everything dark. And then I h-heard...things. Inside my head..." Uncle Vernon and Aunt Petunia exchanged looks of utter horror. PoA p. 30, US edition Not to mention: (Vernon to TV) "You didn't tell us where that maniac's escaped from! What use is that? Lunatic could be coming up the street right now!" Aunt Petunia, who was bony and horse-faced, whipped around and peered intently out of the kitchen window. There are other instances in which Petunia reacts oddly to WW threats, and clambers protectively to Dudley, but I can't put my finger on them. Simple motherly love, or Deep "mrslestrange" From eleanor at dreamvine.org.uk Mon Jul 19 22:18:27 2004 From: eleanor at dreamvine.org.uk (iamvine) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 22:18:27 -0000 Subject: Books 6 & 7 In-Reply-To: <40FBF59C.1070201@tds.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106960 > Hans Andr?a wrote: > > 4. Ron and Hermione will die by decapitation but will live on or > > live again in Harry through the alchemical process. 90% Jem wrote: > In a "children's book" given that innocent people are actually being > decapitated by insane terrorists in the world NOW??? JKR would have > be mad! Eleanor: I don't know anything about the Alchemical Marriage, but I think she could easily get away with decapitating a character if she wanted to. (What about Nearly Headless Nick, anyway?) Terrible things happen in children's books these days. Azkaban, for example. In my experience, children cope with them rather better than I do. Eleanor From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Mon Jul 19 22:26:33 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (wickywackywoo2001) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 22:26:33 -0000 Subject: In defense of considering pureblood preference racism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106961 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sofdog_2000" wrote: This is a non-canon example but I never get > over Mr. Weasley asking Harry the function of a rubber duck in CoS. > Come on! The story hinges on a bathroom (plumbing) and a chute hidden > under a sink. Yet this guy can't a understand a child's toy? :rolls > eyes: That certainly is non-canon; I think it's usually referred to as 'movie contamination'. I'm not referring to THAT Mr. Weasley - in the book he asks Harry about electric plugs, the post office and the telephone, and at least two out of the three would be difficult enough for an average person to explain in detail that they might be considered a Muggle version of 'magic'. The rubber duck thing is just stupid, but what do you expect from a movie? They just thought it would sound funnier to the kiddies in the audience. Wanda > > As to being appreciative of someone else's interest in one's customs, > that lies in the eye of the beholder I s'pose. As an African-American > I find nothing more annoying than being put on the spot about my > customs. Just doing my hair was a whole a drawn out Q&A session in > college. Perhaps a matter of how often, and to what degree one is > subjected to unsolicited scrutiny. Well, Arthur isn't exactly standing around Muggles and annoying them with endless kibbitzing. He's like a person who likes to read travel books and imagine exotic lands and customs. He's not a scientist or an anthropologist, but so what? He's hurting no one with his fascination for muggle stuff; as I said before, he's like an eccentric stamp-collector or trainspotter. Wanda From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Mon Jul 19 22:29:05 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 22:29:05 -0000 Subject: Who would love Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106962 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Hi, > I'm not sure that I want to post this for the list, so I'm answering > you off list. "K": I'm glad you missed the edit button as I've been wanting to ask your opinion on the greasy hair. :-D Potioncat: >I once came up with idea that Snape is a cockroach > animagus and posted it about a year ago. It was before I was > familiar with checking canon first and there was a major canon flaw > to my idea. (Thank goodness!) But there is canon support for it as > well. "K": Canon? I'd be interested to know where. The only things I can think of are Lupin's boggart and the roach (though the roach could apply to *Lupin*) and the jar of cockroaches Snape threw at Harry. Are there others? Spiders and oil go together also and goodness knows there's plenty of spiders in the books. This is the thing, I don't want to hear about how someone has oily hair and how they have crooked yellow teeth, etc. We are talking the HP books. The oily hair is mentioned constantly. Either it's just a description used to make Snape appear all the more evil or there's something up with his appearance. For instance, if we had not found out Lupin was a werewolf in PoA and we were discussing his unhealthy look, there would be people saying 'they' also are pale and worn looking and that's just how it is. Yet his appeance was a hint about being a werewolf. Potioncat: >One of the things that keeps haunting me about that idea, is > that cockroaches have an oily protective coating. The strongest > argument against it is that cockroaches don't like the cold. And > Snape's dungeon is always cold. "K": The problem with cockroaches is that you just can't kill them. As for the cold, well...there are other things don't mind the cold. :-) From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Mon Jul 19 22:50:14 2004 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 22:50:14 -0000 Subject: Stalagmites & stalagtites? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106963 Valky wrote: > >Maybe the significance is not in the question but the answer. > >Hagrid says "Stalagmites got an 'm' in it" > >What are some m words that may be relevant: > > > >Muggle, Magic, Mother, Mudblood... any more? > Nikki Caruso replied: > Hmm... Maybe it there's no big clue or meaning hidden > in the question and it was simply put in there for humor? > I mean really - how many (average) people know the > difference between a stalagmite and a stalagtite without > having looked it up at some point in order to know the > difference?? lol Just a nice, funny line for a bit of > garnish. Janet Anderson points out that the usual mnemonic (in English) turns on the 6th letter -- "stala(g)mite" <==> ground; "stala(c)tite" <==> ceiling. I had thought that it was supposed to be funny that Hagrid remembered enough to know that there was a mnemonic having to do with one of the distinct letters, but misremembered which letter it was. It's even more amusing now that Del points out the mnemonic in French actually does depend on the 7th (rather than the 6th) letter, although I rather doubt Rowling was aware of that point when she wrote it! -- Matt From gsanderson at cfl.rr.com Mon Jul 19 23:23:59 2004 From: gsanderson at cfl.rr.com (gsanderson at cfl.rr.com) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 23:23:59 -0000 Subject: Percy... In-Reply-To: <20040719132859.85319.qmail@web50110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106964 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich wrote: > Do people really see Percy as ambitious? I don't. He doesn't crave > power - he craves recognition. To paraphrase Ron (I think), Percy > wouldn't recognize power if it danced in front of him wearing Dobby's > tea cozy. For what it's worth, neither does Fudge, who is usually > very uncomfortable when he actually has to exercise power as opposed > to simply looking powerful. (During OOTP, this changes, but only > because Umbridge and Lucius Malfoy are busy stiffening his spine by > telling him Dumbleodre is plotting against him; there are few things > more rigid than an easy going person who feels that he's being taken > advantage of by others.) > > Lucius Malfoy is ambitious. He understands that power is getting > what you want out of other people and organizations, even if you > sometimes have to go the roundabout way to do it. He could care less > about getting his face on the front page of the Daily Prophet on a > weekly basis. > > Fudge and Percy love recognition - the front page photos, the > speech-making opportunities, the busy work that comes from really > getting into a particular area of government administration (and yes, > cauldron bottoms ARE important - just ask Mungdungus Fletcher how > much money he'd make off illicit thin-bottomed cauldrons!). > > What Percy is looking for is recognition for his wonderfulness. He's > climbed the establishment, approved-good-son ladder rung by rung and > reaped the benefits of Molly approval every step of the way. And now > that he has this wonderful new job his parents have changed the rules > on him and implied that he didn't deserve it! After all his efforts > to be the Good Son! That's not fair! > > So Percy leaves in a huge huff and spends the year sulking and > soaking up the approval of people in the MoM who are now his > replacement family. If Percy does help the Dark Side it will be > inadvertantly and without realizing it. Percy is not evil, not even > close to turning evil. He's just....Percy the Prefect in the real > world. > > Poor Percy. Even prats have feelings. > > Magda > I have to disagree, slightly. Not about Percy being a prat, but that he is not ambitious. I used to have all the sections marked throughout the books to show all the foreshadowing of Percy having the issues he had in OOtP, but I have since removed them. However, some references I remember: In COS when they were shopping in Diagon Alley, they found Percy in an old shop reading a book entitled "Prefects Who Gained Power" Also in COS, when Percy found them outside Moaning Myrtle's bathroom the first time they investigated it, he got mad at them and Ron accused him of wanting to look good to become head boy. In GOF when the twins actions (when they secretively were trying to get their winnings) were in question, Ron worried that Percy would turn them in - he even said at one point something along the lines of "Percy's very ambitous, you know." Then there's the description of his argument in OOtP with his parents that shows him believing ministry politics over his family and justifying his own promotion. In the recent world book day chat, JKR did state he was acting on his own. There were more, but I cannot remember the references. All of these cases show, in my mind, that Percy is definitely ambitous. He is probably ALSO looking for attention and recognition that he gets from no one other than his Mother. I see this all the time in the real world with folks who have gone through school getting top marks and accolades, then expect to go into the real world at the top of the heap, only to be disappointed that they must start at the bottom of the ladder. The fact remains, however, that Percy was in Gryffindor and is therefore brave in some way. He does rush out with his Dad and brothers to fight the Death Eaters at the World Cup. I hope that there's some sort of redemption/grovelling in his future! (not enough to vote on that option in the current JKR poll, though!!!) Kristen From ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 19 22:50:47 2004 From: ladyramkin2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ladyramkin2000) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 22:50:47 -0000 Subject: Books 6 & 7 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106966 Hans in Holland wrote: There are two other pointers to decapitation I haven't included in my original post. A. The decapitation of the wizard in the fountain in the atrium of the MoM B. The decapitation of Darnay in A Tale of Two Cities by Charles Dickens. Hans, you must have been reading a different version of Dickens' novel to me. The chap who is guillotined at the end of the book is Sidney Carton, not Charles Darnay. Sidney sacrifices himself to save another man, thereby redeeming what has been a largely wasted life. I don't know if this alters your theory at all. Sylvia From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 00:20:00 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 00:20:00 -0000 Subject: JKR's narrative strategy (Was: Whose point of view ?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106967 Sylvia wrote: It wouldn't matter if David Copperfield had twenty times the (considerable) number of characters Dickens employs, the story would still be seen entirely from David's POV, just as the HP books are seen entirely from Harry's. > Adi responded: Harry Potter books aren't written from Harry's point of view. They are written from the author's bird-eye-view, if one may call it that. Remember the first chapter of Book4 where the point of view shifted to the action in the Riddle house though Harry wasn't there. Though Harry was dreaming all this, it wasn't written like that. First the action was presented, then it was told that Harry had also been dreaming about the incidents. If it had been written from Harry's point of view, it should have started with Harry sleeping on his bed la la la and then gone onto the Riddle House, as it happens with the many dreams Harry has in Book5. Carol responds: Adi is correct, but a lot more can be said on the topic from a more technical standpoint. It's important to distinguish among different types of narrative strategies because they affect our interaction with and understanding of the characters. The Harry Potter books would not provide the same reading experience if they were written in the first person, which completely excludes the possibility of viewing events from the outside or the occasional use of a different POV character. "David Copperfield" is a fictional autobiography written from the first-person participant point of view; the narrator and the protagonist are the same person. The only distance between the narrator and the main character is the amount of time that has passed between the events and their reporting. The narrator depicts his younger self sympathetically even when he's aware of his own faults. He presents his own thoughts and feelings but is completely unable to enter into any other character's minds--exactly like a real person. We have to pretend, of course, that the narrator really could remember events, including his own thoughts, in such detail. We excuse a certain degree of subjectivity as natural and inevitable. The HP books are a different matter. They are not told by the protagonist as an adult from his own point of view. Such a device would ruin the suspense JKR wants us to feel regarding Harry's survival. They would also shift the focus from the events and characters to Harry's mind and personality, emphasizing the bildungsroman elements at the expense of the mystery and the epic quest. A third-person narrator enables JKR to blend the three with no one element dominating the others in the series as a whole. The narrator of the HP books, unlike the eponymous David Copperfield, is not a character but a voice telling the story in the third person from the *limited omniscient point of view*, meaning that he or she can tell the story either from the outside (as when the narrator tells us in OoP that Neville, unknown to Harry, is also lying awake) or from the POV of a few selected characters--usually but not always Harry. The choice of Frank Bryce as what Henry James called "the central consciousness" in the first chapter of GoF would be inexplicable if Harry were the sole POV character. The dream sequence would have had to be told through Voldemort, whose mind is connected to Harry's through the scar, rather than through Frank's. But a limited omniscient character can sometimes use a character other than the protagonist (e.g. Vernon Dursley in SS/PS chapter one) or report events without revealing the thoughts of any characters, as when Dumbledore and McGonagall are waiting for Hagrid to deliver baby Harry to the Dursleys. Note that even when the narrator is revealing Vernon Dursley's thoughts, he or she is also able to report events occurring outside Vernon's perspective--events happening out in the street (or the sky) that Vernon doesn't see. In the next chapter, the narrator objectively describes the photos in the Dursleys' living room ten years ago and today and reports that Harry is asleep before assuming his POV (SS/PS Am. ed. 18-19). Later in SS/PS (Am. ed. 190-91), the narrator in that scene is everywhere at once, reporting the conversation of Hagrid, Seamus, Ron, and Hermione before shifting to Hermione setting fire to Snape's robes. Although the entire scene is presented more or less objectively, an argument could be made that it's from Hermione's POV based on a single sentence: "A sudden ylep [from Snape] told her that she had done her job" (191). What's certain is that the observation is not Harry's; it's the limited omniscient narrator's. In GoF, JKR uses dreams and visions to enable Harry to enter Voldemort's mind, which would be possible because of the scar connection even if the narrator were confined to Harry's POV. But the scar connection does not explain the narrator's ability to enter Frank Bryce's mind in that scene any more than it explains the ability to enter Vernon Dursley's in SS/PS chapter one. But the use of a limited omniscient narrator who can occasionally enter minds other than Harry's--and fortunately has done so before GoF--makes the scene plausible. *Harry* is not necessarily in Frank's mind here, even though he dreams about him. Much of the rest of the chapter is background information on Little Hangleton presented by the narrator without using *any* character's POV--not Frank's or Voldemort's or Harry's. Not one of those characters is present to overhear the conversation in the Hanged Man (GoF Am. ed. 2-4). It's reported from an outside, "dramatic" perspective by the invisible, eavesdropping narrator. Interestingly, JKR apparently intended to switch from Harry's POV to Draco's in the first draft of "Philosopher's Stone." The deleted first paragraph of a typescript page on her site starts off with Draco's reaction to Harry's entrance to the classroom, and she edited out a dialogue between Draco Malfoy and Theodore Nott, presumably after she decided to use Harry's POV whenever possible. Nevertheless, for scenes that were essential to the story and could not be told from Harry's perspective or told to him by another character (e.g. "Hagrid's Tale" on OoP), the use of a limited omniscient narrator left open the possibility of enter other characters' minds or even having no POV character at all, as in GoF 1-4. Equally interesting is the choice of characters whose minds the narrator does not and perhaps cannot enter: Dumbledore, Snape, the DADA teacher of the moment, Sirius Black, Petunia Dursley, and many others. This limitation keeps us guessing about these characters' motives and prevents us from knowing what's really going on to the extent that these characters know it (or think they know it, since even Dumbledore can be wrong). It also aids in establishing a mystery in every book since the clues and red herrings are always presented from Harry's perspective (though by now we see more in them than he does). And of course the normal but not exclusive use of Harry's POV rather than that of an objective adult observer not only limits our knowledge but distorts our perception of events and characters if we allow Harry's frequent misinterpretations to become ours. Almost everyone knows that a first-person narrator can be unreliable, especially if he's young and naive. The classic example is "Huckleberry Finn," whose interpretation of events clashed ironically with the interpretation that Twain anticipated from an enlightened adult reader. But a limited omniscient narrator can also be unreliable when he's reporting the perceptions of a character (usually but not always the protagonist) rather than "the facts" (which themselves are subject to interpretation by the characters and the reader--an interpretation that can differ markedly from the narrator's as colored by the character's). Nevertheless, a limited omniscient narrator is useful--much less cumbersome than an omniscient narrator who could clutter the story by reporting the thoughts of everyone from Crabbe to Mrs. Norris, and much more plausible for the HP books than a first-person narrator (Harry recording his thoughts and actions in a kind of after-the-fact memoir, which would remove the element of suspense regarding his survival against Voldemort and eliminate the possibility of presenting background on the Riddle murders and similar information that none of the regular characters could possibly know). Any reader who's not convinced of the importance of POV should try reading "Moby Dick," in which Melville discovered about a third of the way through that telling the story from Ishmael's POV alone was not going to work. Carol, who didn't mean to write so much on this topic but considers it very important From meriaugust at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 00:20:45 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 00:20:45 -0000 Subject: Dudley Demented (???) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106968 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mrslestrange" wrote: > And why do they [the dementors] go after him [Dudley], anyway? I thought they were supposed to > be precision instruments, unless you were trying to block them from > who they were after. I'm getting this from the PoA movie, however, so > it's possibly not canon. Why would Umbridge sic them on Dudders? Meri now: Don't forget that Dementors are living (sort of) beings that have minds of their own. They feed on human emotion to survive. IMHO Harry was the only one DU told the dementors to attack, Dudley was just an extra. I think that one of the reasons that Harry was targeted by the dementors, even as early as PoA, is because he's got, as Lupin tells him, such emotional stuff in his life that he's probably a magnet for them. And Dudley was terribly effected by the dementors, as well, so maybe he's an emotional magnet, too. Just two knuts. Meri From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue Jul 20 00:33:11 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 00:33:11 -0000 Subject: The Potion Puzzle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106969 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dcgmck" wrote: > > I will nominate that > > we will get the bottle of wine next. And the step back through > > history last, I dont know for sure why I think it will be in this order because there are many many reasons. > ...... just as Quirrel was standing before the mirror in the *end* of PS. > > dcgmck: > Quirrel got burned; those of us who try to second-guess JKR > probably will too, but that IS the game right now while we wait > between texts, isn't it? > > > > Valky: I absolutely agree with that! > dcgmck: > Actually, if you accept Witley's logic and follow the clues given in PS/SS, poison is always followed by wine, reading from left to > right. Of course, the clue is such that it suggests that the nettle wine is always staying close (and to the right) of the poisons. Either way, it can be perceived as a promise of entertainment to lighten the darker moments/texts. > Valky: And also such logic does completely imply that book 6 *will* be "Beater" as it is the book in right side succession to the Chaser OOP. By The Way, more indications that OOP was a chaser book in the "like poisoned honey" description of Umbridge, yeah? OOP was definitley a poison book. A chaser Book.. Which leads me to a question I'd like to consider. I am presuming from your post, that you are somewhat in the agreement that the books seem to parrallel a game of quidditch being played as well as the players that they each seem to capture. If so I'd like to put to you and anyone else considering this analogy to tally a score for each side from the events of the books. I personally don't think either side scored until book four. The keepers in book three (secret keeper and timeturner/parrallel to keeper in going back) it seems to me deflected the attempts from each side. ie Pettigrew escaped and Sirius escaped. In book four I think that the *other* side to Harry scored an unanswered goal ie Voldemort rose, and in Book five (secret keeper dumbledore) deflected initial attempts by speaking for Harry in the trial, but I am thinking that maybe they did get one more in before the end. Which to me leaves the game 20-nil to the baddies. I reckon that that means one of the next books will be a score fest for Voldemort... any input from any one else there. > Hm.. does that mean we're being promised that there will be an > entertaining finish? Or that we'll be dropped back at the beginning, left with all our philosophical conundrums intact? > Valky: I reckon that what it means is that the game starts and finishes with the seeker ie with Harry and his question. But the zenith of the story will be the keeper. I think JKR will go as far back as the Founders of Hogwarts for that but its just my own humble opinion. > In any event, the comment about James as Seeker is only in the film. Valky: Book three does have a mini *Harry and James As One* event. Applying the logic that you speak of, this also could be escalated to a larger scale. Plus we, well Harry only *sees* James in the Chaser books with the exception of the Mirror of Erised which was a Seeker book. (correct me if I am wrong) Although, JKR is saying James was Chaser to us outside the books inside them she definitely is pointing at James the Seeker for us, but perhaps she means Harry and Harry's "James within". *shrug* I don't know if that made any sense. From garybec101 at comcast.net Tue Jul 20 00:47:51 2004 From: garybec101 at comcast.net (garybec101 at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 00:47:51 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] New JKR FAQ Poll: Which is significant? Message-ID: <072020040047.4901.40FC6BB700090AD0000013252200758942CECFCE0C0A0D979D0E09@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 106971 -------------- Original message -------------- Stefanie ponders: Looking at JKR's new FAQ poll on her website, and looking as what canon has to offer us, which option do you think would help us the most? 1) Is Percy working undercover for any secret organization/boss?// I can't see this garnering any other response but "no". We get from the World Book Day chat: |Q: Was Percy acting entirely of his own |accord in Order of the Phoenix? |A: I'm afraid so." Becki Now; What if he is acting this way all on his own, even without his parents knowlege, but in a noble way, protecting them. Perhaps he figures, if he takes this job, Fudge would want to use him for inside info to his parents. By distancing himself from them, he is protecting them? Just an idea. Becki //2) Where has Peter Pettigrew (Wormtail) been since the end of 'Goblet of Fire'?// Becki doesn't really care... //3) What did Dumbledore's Howler to Aunt Petunia mean? ('Remember my last'?)// Becki here again; I voted for this one myself, however, I do wonder if the questions she puts up for the poll are very important to the final books? We found that true with the first one about Mark Evans. Time will tell... Becki Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From meltowne at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 01:44:21 2004 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 01:44:21 -0000 Subject: Something wrong with this Fudge Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106972 I've been thinking abou our friend from the ministry, Cornelius Fudge. I can't quite decide what to make of him, but I know there's something odd that JKR has been hinting at all along. What do we know about Fudge? 1 - He was the first on the scene when Wormtail disappeared. Everything the rest of the wizarding world knows about what happened there is based on his account. Why was Fudge there - and did he maybe witness the event, not just the aftermath? Did he cast sme sort of charm on Sirius to make him behave that way, making him appear insane? 2 - The night that Bertha Jorkins found out about Barty Crouch Jr, wasn't Crouch Sr, having dinner with the Fudges? There was obviously some sort of close relationship between these families. 3 - Fudge got the Minister job when it appeared that Crouch had a bad apple in his family. Was Barty really responsible for torturing the Longbottoms? Why did Fudge have the dementors kiss him so quickly? I think Barty Jr knew something about Fudge that he wanted kept hidden. 4 - in PoA, Crouch wants to make sure Harry stays in Diagon Alley. I don't think it's to protect Harry, but to keep Sirious from being able to contact him. Fudge may know why Sirious survived Azkaban - he wasn't guilty. I think Fudge can't afford for Harry to talk to Sirious. What if Fudge was with Wormtail & LV at Godrics Hollow? Fudge gives Wormtail advice to "disappear for a while" and to fake his own death. What if he used Barty Jr to discredit his father so he could become Minister of Magic - Maybe Barty was a death eater, but not that involved yet (he was pretty young). Fudge clearly holds some of the same beliefs as the death eaters, regarding muggles and half-bloods. Is he a death eater, or does he at least simpathize with them? Or is he just so power-hungry that he will side with whichever side e thinks is most strong? From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Tue Jul 20 01:47:23 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (wickywackywoo2001) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 01:47:23 -0000 Subject: Who would love Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106973 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "koinonia02" wrote: > The problem with cockroaches is that you just can't kill them. > > As for the cold, well...there are other things don't mind the > cold. :-) Well, it's a problem for US, but from Snape's point of view, being indestructible might come in very useful. I remember during the dark days of the arms race and MAD, being somberly told that after a nuclear holocaust, only cockroaches would survive. I can just imagine Snape thinking that no matter what mayhem and destruction Voldemort rains down on the WW, he'll come crawling out alive no matter what. :) Wanda From srae1971 at bellsouth.net Mon Jul 19 23:34:43 2004 From: srae1971 at bellsouth.net (Shannon) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 19:34:43 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Percy... In-Reply-To: <20040719132859.85319.qmail@web50110.mail.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.1.20040719192711.00cc1278@mail.bellsouth.net> No: HPFGUIDX 106974 >Magda said: >Do people really see Percy as ambitious? I don't. He doesn't crave >power - he craves recognition. I think Percy is ambitious, yes. It's a different kind of ambition that Lucius Malfoy has, granted. He does want power, but I don't think he understands what that means. I agree, Percy is about being important. We see it from the first moment we meet him, the new Puffed Up Prefect. He lords his knowledge and status over everyone else, and is *very* put out when it isn't acknowledged. He wants power and he wants recognition and praise for it. They come hand in hand as far as he's concerned, I think. >Magda said: >replacement family. If Percy does help the Dark Side it will be >inadvertantly and without realizing it. Percy is not evil, not even >close to turning evil. He's just....Percy the Prefect in the real >world. > >Poor Percy. Even prats have feelings. I do feel badly for him, actually, even though I don't like him. He's a mess, really. Even though I wanted to smack him around a lot in OotP (and elsewhere for that matter), I do understand why he feels the way he does. I'll be very interested to see what happens to him in the last two books. Shannon [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Tue Jul 20 01:56:05 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (wickywackywoo2001) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 01:56:05 -0000 Subject: Something wrong with this Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106975 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meltowne" wrote: > 4 - in PoA, Crouch wants to make sure Harry stays in Diagon Alley. I > don't think it's to protect Harry, but to keep Sirious from being > able to contact him. Fudge may know why Sirious survived Azkaban - > he wasn't guilty. I think Fudge can't afford for Harry to talk to > Sirious. > I think that Fudge WAS trying to keep Harry from Sirius, and not for his own good. Fudge suspended the rule against underage magic in Harry's case at the beginning of CoS; Harry fully expected to be in big trouble and barred from Hogwarts. But Fudge just brushed the matter aside, because his main objective was to get Harry to Hogwarts *no matter what*, as it was the one place he could be most insulated from any possible contact with Sirius. I do think that Fudge was worried that Harry might learn something dangerous if Sirius was able to speak to him. Which makes me wonder if Sirius HAS told Harry something important about Fudge, which we just haven't realized yet. Now that Sirius is gone, any information he had has either been disclosed (maybe even without him realizing it) or else has gone to the grave. Wanda From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Tue Jul 20 01:59:24 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (wickywackywoo2001) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 01:59:24 -0000 Subject: Something wrong with this Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106976 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "wickywackywoo2001" wrote: > I think that Fudge WAS trying to keep Harry from Sirius, and not for > his own good. Fudge suspended the rule against underage magic in > Harry's case at the beginning of CoS... Oops, sorry, of course I meant the beginning of PoA, after Harry had blown up Aunt Marge. It's getting late and I'm getting tired. Wanda From drliss at comcast.net Mon Jul 19 23:47:45 2004 From: drliss at comcast.net (Lissa Hess) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 19:47:45 -0400 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 23: Christmas On The Closed Ward In-Reply-To: <1090273244.26983.46858.m14@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20040719193509.0178b078@mail.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 106977 >>1) When Harry thinks that he is a danger to others, why is his first instinct to go back to Privet Drive?<< Because magic just doesn't exist at Privet Drive. Not in Harry's mind. Even with the Dementor attack over the summer. Two dementors? Hah! After everything Harry's been through, a little dementor problem is nothing. Additionally, the people he cares about and cares about hurting are not the people at Privet Drive. >> 2) Why does Harry ask advice of no one, especially Sirius, whom he trusts and has gone to before? << Huntergreen: He did go to Sirius, he just didn't find it very helpful. He went to Sirius before they visited Arthur in the hospital, and (essentially), Sirius just told him to not worry about it, and if it was something to worry about Dumbledore would have told him. I think that Sirius underestimates how much Harry would obsess about this (and oddly enough HE doesn't go to Harry after Harry shuts himself off from everyone). I think that Sirius cares about Harry a lot, but doesn't know him very well. Harry probably didn't seek him out again because he thought he'd get the same answer. Also, Harry at this point in the book, was more interested in wallowing in misery than going to anyone for help. Lissa: I REALLY like that point that Sirius doesn't know Harry. Not really. They've had very limited contact, until OotP, and by OotP Sirius was losing himself. I also think Sirius isn't always sure how to communicate with Harry. Molly is somewhat right- he does think of Harry as a hybrid of James and Harry. Interestingly, he seems to relate better to Harry in OotP when Lupin is around. As for Harry himself, I agree with the point that he's becoming more independent. He also screams out to Ron and Hermione that HE'S the one who's done all these things earlier in the book. I think he's wrestling not only with his ego, but his expectations for himself. I mean, this kid has been fighting his reputation for the last four years... and he's been winning. He HAS done a lot: he made it through the teacher's obsticle course guarding the Stone, he killed Tom Riddle and defeated the basilisk, he's mastered advanced magic for his age and drove off dementors, freed Sirius, and won the Triwizard tournament. But at the same time, even as his ego tells him he's been doing so well, his heart tells him he hasn't done it alone. OotP is a tough time for Harry. 15 is a tough, tough age because you're just figuring out who you really are, and who you really want to be. Harry is fighting against so many people's conceptions of him: he has to be The Boy Who Lived, James's Son, Molly's Adoptive Son, Good Student, Seeker... the question he's trying to answer is "who IS Harry Potter?" I think because he's feeling the pull of those forces, he feels like he needs to do this on his own. Additionally, he doesn't understand the link between himself and Voldemort. He's never experienced it like this before, and to see himself attack Arthur Weasley, whom in some ways is as much of a father figure to him as Sirius- probably more so because he's, well, normal- fills him with revulsion. He can't stand himself, ergo, he assumes others will not be able to tolerate him. Couldn't come up with a truly good answer to #3. > 4) Why does Alice give Neville the gum wrapper? Is she starting to > recognize him? Is there something strange about the gum, or is it > all she has to give? Del: Your guess is as good as any :-) One possibility I like is that she gives them to Neville because it's Neville who gives the gums to her in the first place. Maybe Neville learned from Uncle Algie that his mom was a Drooble Gum addict, so he started early on to give them her favourite treats as a way to tell her he loved her. And now she's giving them back to him as a way to tell him she loves him too. The gums wrappers would be a *symbol* of the love they have for each other but that they can't share any other way. I have of course not a single shred of canon to support my theory. I just *like* the idea. Lissa: Del, I absolutely love this thought. And it wouldn't surprise me if you're actually dead on. I don't think there's any significance plotwise in gum wrappers. In fact, I don't want there to be. I DO think there's symbolic significance, and Del's put it beautifully. To have some plot significance... to have Alice trying to tell Neville anything besides she loves him... totally changes that scene. And I think what we're seeing in that scene is one of JKR's "everyone's capable of love" type themes. Without a doubt, this scene was the most powerful in the book to me. So beautifully done- so poignant and not overdone at all, and so heart-wrenching. Lissa From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 02:14:31 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 02:14:31 -0000 Subject: Why didn't Severus reveal the Prank? (Was: How did Sirius lure Severus...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106978 Carol wrote: I think Neri is on the right track here, but I would add that Severus' fear of humiliation is probably the crucial factor. I think Dumbledore probably pointed out to Severus that if he revealed what he knew, not only would the whole school (and probably the WW) know that he had been tricked by Sirius Black, they would know that his life had been saved by the even-more-hated James Potter, to whom he now owed a life debt. Carol, waiting to hear from Kneasy and Neri on the humiliation portion of this theory. Neri: I find these back-and-forth Snape debates rather tedious and pointless, but if asked for my opinion I have no problem supplying it ;-) I think the humiliation part probably played a part here, but I don't think it was a central part. IMO it's a question of whom do you believe. We are given here two very different stories regarding Snape's feelings about the "prank", James and Harry: DD's story: ------------------------------------------- "Well, they did rather detest each other. Not unlike yourself and Mr Malfoy. And then, your father did something Snape could never forgive." "What?" "He saved his life." "What?" "Yes " said Dumbledore dreamily. "Funny, the way people's minds work, isn't it? Professor Snape couldn't bear being in your father's debt I do believe he worked so hard to protect you this year because he felt that would make him and your father quits. Then he could go back to hating your father's memory in peace " --------------------------------------- Snape's story: --------------------------------------- Snape's sallow skin had gone the color of sour milk. "And did the headmaster tell you the circumstances in which your father saved my life?" he whispered. "Or did he consider the details too unpleasant for precious Potter's delicate ears?" Harry bit his lip. He didn't know what had happened and didn't want to admit it ? but Snape seemed to have guessed the truth. "I would hate for you to run away with a false idea of your father, Potter," he said, a terrible grin twisting his face. "Have you been imagining some act of glorious heroism? Then let me correct you ? your saintly father and his friends played a highly amusing joke on me that would have resulted in my death if your father hadn't got cold feet at the last moment. There was nothing brave about what he did. He was saving his own skin as much as mine. Had their joke succeeded, he would have been expelled from Hogwarts." Snape's uneven, yellowish teeth were bared. --------------------------------------- These two stories certainly don't agree. They can be reconciled in the level of the details, perhaps, but not in the level of Snape's feelings and motives. DD says Snape feels he is in debt to James even 10 years after James' death. According to Snape's story, he believes it was James "and his friends" who played the joke on him in the first place. He doesn't even mention Sirius' name. According to Snape it was James' fault from the beginning, and James just got cold feet and was saving his own skin. If you believe this story, or even if you just believe that Snape believes it, there is no reason for Snape to feel in debt to James. So, who's story do you buy? That's the question. I tend to buy DD's story for several reasons: 1. DD is not emotionally invested here. He talks "dreamily". Snape, OTOH, is extremely emotional (as always when he deals with Harry). Note "sallow skin had gone the color of sour milk", "a terrible grin twisting his face" and "teeth were bared". Snape would go to extreme length and not admit to Harry that he feels in debt to his father. 2. DD's story is more consistent with canon than Snape's story. For example, if Snape really believes his story, then you have this whole problem that was raised in the current thread: why would Snape keep quiet about the "prank" and why would he trust DD after that. But if you buy DD's version there isn't any inconsistency problem at all: If Snape felt in debt to James enough to try saving his son 10 years after James' death, then he certainly felt enough in debt to him to keep quiet and prevent James' expulsion immediately after the case. Another example: if you go by Snape's story it is very difficult to explain why he tries so hard to save Harry's life throughout SS/PS and yet (apparently) doesn't tell DD about his suspicions regarding Quirrell. If you go with DD's story it is very easy to explain it: Snape felt he would be quits with James only if he saves Harry by himself. 3. Generally, I believe DD is JKR's oracle in the book. He doesn't lie to us. He of course doesn't tell us everything (or it would be a much less interesting story) but when he does tell us something it is the truth. 4. As a reader, DD's story appeals more to me. It is IMO more interesting. It makes Snape's character more complex and, in a very twisted way, more honorable. Neri From rowen_lm at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 02:20:57 2004 From: rowen_lm at yahoo.com (Liz Muir) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 02:20:57 -0000 Subject: New JKR FAQ Poll: Which is significant? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106979 > Stefanie ponders: > Looking at JKR's new FAQ poll on her website, and looking as what > canon has to offer us, which option do you think would help us the > most? I haven't given it too much thought, yet, but as of right now, > I'm absolutely stumped as to which I'm going to vote for... As I see it, there are three factors that should go into deciding which FAQ to vote for: 1) Will JKR even give us an answer? She's notorious for "Sorry, can't tell you" answers. Though it being in a FAQ means she's more likely to give us something. 2) How useful is this info going to be? With the Mark Evans question, that info could have been key to a lot of theories, whereas the other two weren't so much. This question could also be worded as, "How much are you dying to know?" 3) How key will this info be to the plot? Similar to the 2nd question: is this really going to matter? Also related to the 1st question, because the more central it is to the plot, the less likely it is that she'll tell us. :D So here's my rankings, on a scale of 1-5, 5 being good, 3 being maybe and 1 being bad: > //1) Is Percy working undercover for any secret organization/boss?// 1) 5 2) 4 3) 2 > //2) Where has Peter Pettigrew (Wormtail) been since the end of 'Goblet of Fire'?// 1) 3 2) 4 3) 5 > //3) What did Dumbledore's Howler to Aunt Petunia mean? ('Remember > my last'?)// 1) 3 2) 5 3) 5 So . . . they're all about even, but I think I'll vote for #3. What do you think? Rowen From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Tue Jul 20 02:29:47 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (wickywackywoo2001) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 02:29:47 -0000 Subject: Cold case files - The Riddle Case Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106980 I was watching "Cold Case Files" on TV this evening, and it struck me that to the police, the Riddle murders ARE a cold case - an unsolved, 50-year old triple homicide. The Muggle world will probably never find out what happened, but maybe we could play detective and try to open the file again. I noticed one or two little details in re-reading the opening chapter of GoF, and maybe someone with a bit more knowledge of upper-class British traditions of 2 generations ago could fill in a few details. 1. The Riddles had servants, at least 3: a cook, a maid, and Frank the gardener. This was either during the last year or two of WWII (Frank had been injured and returned home) or shortly after. Now, I thought that WWII really brought to a close the "Upstairs, Downstairs" kind of life of a family with domestic servants. Yet the Riddles still employed a staff, so it seems to me they must have been QUITE rich. 2. The maid found them in the morning, in the drawing room, still dressed in their dinner clothes. So they still followed the old-fashioned tradition of dressing for dinner. Does anyone know about what time dinner would have been served in that era? And what was the usual pattern: people would dress, then go down and eat dinner, then...go to the drawing room? Was that normal? Or would they go out, or go to bed? Would one change clothes again after dinner, or stay in the same clothes until bedtime? Was the drawing room like a family room, where a family normally would gather after dinner, or was it the "best" room, for entertaining guests? 3. The cook must have cooked the dinner, and I suppose also cleaned up after. So there was no one else eating with the Riddles, or she would have known. And nothing unusual happened while the servants were around. 4. The house wasn't broken in to. Either the murderer got in with a key (as Frank is accused of doing), or else got in by magic (the police wouldn't know that was a possibility), or was admitted by the Riddles. 5. Is it just accidental that the cook says that Frank could have crept into the house "while we was all sleeping..."? Is "we" the servants, or the village? Did the servants sleep in the house, or did they come and go every day? If they were IN the house, then three murders took place without anyone hearing any disturbance. The cook assumes it's because they were all asleep, but why were all 3 Riddles up so late, fully dressed, in the drawing room instead of going to bed like the rest of the household? Did they have an appointment, perhaps? Wanda From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 02:29:52 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 02:29:52 -0000 Subject: Percy... In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.1.20040719192711.00cc1278@mail.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106981 Shannon wrote: snip. > I do feel badly for him, actually, even though I don't like him. He's a > mess, really. Even though I wanted to smack him around a lot in OotP (and > elsewhere for that matter), I do understand why he feels the way he > does. I'll be very interested to see what happens to him in the last two > books. > Alla: Absolutely. I do feel bad for him, even though right now I don't like him at all right now. I feel bad for him, because sometimes Rowling shows us that Percy is not a total git, that he does love his family and I am hoping that not everything is lost for him. "... but Percy, who looked very white and somehow much younger than usual, came splashing out to meet them. ---- Percy seized Ron and was dragging him back to the bank("Geroff, Percy, I'm all right!")" - GoF, am.ed., paperback, p.504 Before OoP, I used to think that Percy just needs to lighten up. Of course, now I think he needs to do much more than that (like some serious apologising to his family). I only hope that he will not consciously betray anybody to Voldie and that hypothetical somebody will not die. Because if Percy will cause a death, I will not be able to feel sympathy for him anymore. From pcsgames at toltbbs.com Tue Jul 20 02:45:48 2004 From: pcsgames at toltbbs.com (Phil Vlasak) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 22:45:48 -0400 Subject: famous Last words In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20040719224259.02c81290@mail.toltbbs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106982 famous Last words By combining the last word from the five books plus adding what JKR said was the last word in the seventh book you get: summer world last did wake -- scar And adding Harry's as the last word of Half Blood Prince, you get: Summer world last did wake Harry's scar. Could this foretell that Harry's scar will wake up during the Summer of the last book? Phil ponders. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 02:47:04 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 02:47:04 -0000 Subject: I'm not proud of it In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106983 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ladyramkin2000" : snip. > The Siriophiles and Jacobites can come up with as many > excuses as they like. The behaviour of both these boys (very nearly > men) is still appalling. How would you feel if Snape had been YOUR > kid? Alla: I think I take a grave enough view of how Sirius and James behaved in that scene, but I think that begs the comparison question: How would you feel if Neville was your child and Snape was his teacher? By the way, I would have been very angry if that was done to my child, but afterwards I would have also made sure that my child never mutters the word 'mudblood" ever again. From meriaugust at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 02:48:17 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 02:48:17 -0000 Subject: Cold case files - The Riddle Case In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106984 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "wickywackywoo2001" wrote: snip > 4. The house wasn't broken in to. Either the murderer got in with a > key (as Frank is accused of doing), or else got in by magic (the > police wouldn't know that was a possibility), or was admitted by the > Riddles. > > 5. Is it just accidental that the cook says that Frank could have > crept into the house "while we was all sleeping..."? Is "we" the > servants, or the village? Did the servants sleep in the house, or did > they come and go every day? If they were IN the house, then three > murders took place without anyone hearing any disturbance. The cook > assumes it's because they were all asleep, but why were all 3 Riddles > up so late, fully dressed, in the drawing room instead of going to bed > like the rest of the household? Did they have an appointment, perhaps? Meri now: So many interesting questions to ponder. I like these last two though, because they sparked something in my mind. What if young Tom revealed himself to his long-lost father and grandparents before killing them? What if there was a sort of confrontation, where Tom enters the house (or is let in by the Riddles on false pretenses), says something along the lines of, "Hey, Dad, I'm your long lost son, where the hell have you been for the last seventeen years?" and then proceeds to have a little fun with his wand and his hated Muggle family. That might explain why they were in their dinner things so late at night. As far as we know (other than insanity in certain prolonged cases) Crucio and Imperio leave no physical traces, so the Riddles may very well have been tortured and humiliated before they were killed, and their voices Silencio-ed to keep the villagers or Frank from hearing anything. Young Tom also seems to have been able to get to the house without attracting anyone's attention except Frank's, so maybe he deliberately showed himself to Frank (whom he intended to frame for the murders) in order to give Frank a wholy implausible story to tell to the police. I mean isn't that exactly what someone accused of murder would say? That they and they alone saw a stranger around the crime scene prior to the incident? Just a few thoughts, and sorry that I can't answer your questions about upper-crust Brits, as I am a decidedly blue-collar American. Meri - who would have loved to be in the room listening to Tom berate his dear old dad... From sofdog_2000 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 02:51:04 2004 From: sofdog_2000 at yahoo.com (sofdog_2000) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 02:51:04 -0000 Subject: In defense of considering pureblood preference racism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106985 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > Um. Where to start? Not that I don't agree that prejudice looms large > in the Potterverse, it most definitely does. But race-linked prejudice, > that I'm not so sure about. One of the problems is that everybody knows > about racism, but other forms of prejudice tend to get forgotten, just > because they're not so evident in our own society; not so evident > doesn't mean they don't exist. > > JKR goes to great pains to include a spread of racial types among the > students with no indication that there is any conflict or unpleasantness. > In general terms racially motivated hatred requires identifiers that can > be easily picked out. This isn't so easy in the WW - although I did once > theorise that any adult pureblood would never be seen in any other > clothes except robes (Madam Malkin - robes for *all* occasions) - my > emphasis. > But on the whole the WW is presented as racially harmonious. > > Except of course for Muggles and Mudbloods. But are they a race? > I don't think so - I think that what we have here is a caste system. > And in a caste system racial origins don't count for much, but one's > inherited status in society does. By virtue of bloodlines one caste > rules - always (until they're knocked off) and other castes are > designated as hewers of wood and drawers of water - and they'd > better learn to like it! Or else! > > Make no mistake, an hierarchy of castes can be just as nasty as > any other kind of prejudice, in some ways even more so, because > those at the bottom of the pile aren't just there to be despised, > they're there to be *used* at the whim of those higher up the > ladder. That's the effect of an entrenched caste system, no > matter what name you call it by - feudalism or religion or class. > > And this attitude is more widespread than just DEs and Slytherins. > Remember Mr Roberts? Poor bloody farmer whose fields were the > venue for the World Cup? Nobody bothered in the slightest that > his memory blasted every few hours. He was considered as a > nuisiance more than anything else - he was being used. So by the > way, are the Dursleys, at least as far as we can tell. A cuckoo is > dumped in their nest - no choices are offered; "You will do this." > > Of course in the WW purebloods are on a hiding to nothing, > drawing their pathetic rags of justification around themselves, > because for the system to become full-blown it requires that > power be centralised in the higher castes - and it isn't. Magic is > a highly personal, integral power that cannot be cancelled once > it has manifested itself. "Power grows out of the tip of a wand" - > to paraphrase a RW mass murderer. So mudbloods can laugh at > the pretentions of purebloods; they will not be imposed upon. > > Muggles are still losers - at least for now. But if the WW maintains > or even intensifies it's separation from the Muggle world, that > will become moot. > > It'll be interesting to see what happens. > > Kneasy SOF: I couldn't disagree more with this assessment. The Pureblood/Muggleborn conflict is clearly racism, not a caste system. If it were a caste system, both groups would be aware that they were partcipating in it and know there places. Wizards take great pains to conceal themselves from the Muggle population at large. Strangely, both groups share national pride yet they don't share a currency system or infrastructure of any kind. The fact that Rowling hasn't presented any color-based racism doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. It's hard to believe that those who grow up in the Muggle world would entirely abandon their upbringing in favor of a life of magic. Prejudices acquired in a Muggle life must seep into the Magical world. Many people maintain prejudices without making overt expressions. There is clearly a caste system within the magical world. House-elves were created specifically to draw water and hew wood. The laws that restrict them are strikingly similar to the laws governing American slaves (ie. no possession of wands). Add to that the standard case of the Malfoys and Blacks - wealthy snobs - looking down on the Weasleys, et al. - the poor. This parallels the Muggle world, but doesn't include it. The attack on the Roberts family was the equivalent of a lynching in the American segregation era. They were picked on because they were isolated, outnumbered and unable to defend themselves. The Dursleys definitely had a choice with Harry. If they rejected him - gave him over to the state to be fostered - Harry would have been defenseless maybe, but it was an option available to them. It is the only thing that speaks well of the Dursleys, that they kept Harry for his own sake. It seems to me that the core reason Wizards work so hard to stay under the Muggle radar is to keep themselves from being hunted down and killed off. Mass hysteria leads to ugly things. Ron's comment that Wizards needed to intermarry in order to keep from dying out indicates that they are a significant minority of the human population. If sure if provoked, Muggles would find away to wipe them out. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 02:51:06 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 02:51:06 -0000 Subject: New JKR FAQ Poll: Which is significant? In-Reply-To: <20040719214708.31399.qmail@web90008.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106986 > Stefanie wrote previously: > > Looking at JKR's new FAQ poll on her website, and looking at what > > canon has to offer us, which option do you think would help us the > > most? > > 3) What did Dumbledore's Howler to Aunt Petunia mean? ('Remember > > my last'?) > > > Griffin782002 now: > > I voted for the third option, which has taken most votes. I hope it will > be proved which more important than Mark Evans. Actually I didn't vote > in the last poll. Alla: As many people said , I voted for number three. When time comes JKR tell us where Pettigrew was. I am interested to find out, but not that interested. I strongly suspect that the answer to number one will be NO. I just can't see Percy as a spy. I will be happy to be proven wrong, by the way. Number three sounds interesting, but I cans ee the possibility of this one turning to be not important at all. From ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 02:53:14 2004 From: ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com (ohneill_2001) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 02:53:14 -0000 Subject: In defense of considering pureblood preference racism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106987 SOF wrote: > As to being appreciative of someone else's interest in one's customs, > that lies in the eye of the beholder I s'pose. As an African- American > I find nothing more annoying than being put on the spot about my > customs. Just doing my hair was a whole a drawn out Q&A session in > college. Perhaps a matter of how often, and to what degree one is > subjected to unsolicited scrutiny. Now Cory: I can see your point, but I guess it is a matter of perspective. As a New York City resident who grew up in Montana, I get tired of people asking me questions about riding horses and rustling cattle (as if I knew anything about either of those topics :) ), but I certainly don't equate it with racism. They're just interested in hearing about a topic with which they are not familiar, as is Arthur Weasley. Maybe part of why I see it this way is because of Arthur's personality otherwise. He is, as far as we know, a good and caring person in all respects. If the same remarks about Muggle ways were to be made by, say, Lucius or Draco, I might be more predisposed to see them in a different light. --Cory From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 03:10:47 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 03:10:47 -0000 Subject: Dudley Demented (???) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106988 > Meri now: Don't forget that Dementors are living (sort of) beings > that have minds of their own. They feed on human emotion to survive. > IMHO Harry was the only one DU told the dementors to attack, Dudley > was just an extra. snip. Alla: I agree that Dudley was just a nice "desert" for Dementors' dinner, but I also thought that that one could be a clue for Dudley possibly having some magic ability inside of him. I always thought that Lupin's statement "Even muggles feel their presence, though they can't see them" -PoA, brit,ed., p.140 implies that Dementors affect Wizards stronger than Muggles, althought I could be wrong, of course. From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue Jul 20 03:20:55 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 03:20:55 -0000 Subject: New JKR FAQ Poll: Which is significant? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106989 > > Stefanie wrote previously: > > > Looking at JKR's new FAQ poll on her website, and looking at what canon has to offer us, which option do you think would help us the most? > Griffin782002 now: I voted for the third option, which has taken most votes. I hope it will be proved much more important than Mark Evans. Actually I > didn't vote in the last poll. > Alla: > > As many people said , I voted for number three. When time comes for JKR to tell us where Pettigrew was. I am interested to find out, but not that interested. I strongly suspect that the answer to number one will be NO. I just can't see Percy as a spy. I will be happy to be proven wrong, by the way. > Number three sounds interesting, but I can see the possibility of > this one turning to be not important at all. Valky: As can I, Alla. which is why I am replying. Perhaps we might be prudent to consider where we went wrong with Mark Evans before deciding on our choice for this poll. Of course there is the decided possibility that they are, actually, *all* unimportant questions with strictly non-spoiler answers. That, I have considered, and yet, I still have an inkling that JKR doesn't play that way. One of them, surely, is a valuable clue, but which one I am hesitant to guess, for now. If someone can remember fully what were the other two questions that JKR offered on the Mark Evans Poll, which one of those do we think *now* that we might have missed our chance on? I think that might help us to wrangle a Really Canon Brilliant answer out of the great one this time. LOL From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 03:29:25 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 03:29:25 -0000 Subject: New JKR FAQ Poll: Which is significant? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106990 > > Valky: > Of course there is the decided possibility that they are, actually, > *all* unimportant questions with strictly non-spoiler answers. That, > I have considered, and yet, I still have an inkling that JKR doesn't > play that way. One of them, surely, is a valuable clue, but which > one I am hesitant to guess, for now. > > If someone can remember fully what were the other two questions that > JKR offered on the Mark Evans Poll, which one of those do we think > *now* that we might have missed our chance on? I think that might > help us to wrangle a Really Canon Brilliant answer out of the great > one this time. LOL Alla: Hey, Valky! Oh, I like the idea that one of the FAO questions does hide important clue much better than the idea than none of the answers will be important anyway. If I remember correctly two other questions asked whether Snape is really Perseus Evans and whether Sirius is realy dead (sob..) I think you know which one of them I would love to hide a clue. :o) From snow15145 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 03:37:48 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 03:37:48 -0000 Subject: Dudley Demented (???) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106991 > Alla: > > I agree that Dudley was just a nice "desert" for Dementors' dinner, > but I also thought that that one could be a clue for Dudley possibly > having some magic ability inside of him. > > I always thought that Lupin's statement > "Even muggles feel their presence, though they can't see them" - PoA, > brit,ed., p.140 > implies that Dementors affect Wizards stronger than Muggles, > althought I could be wrong, of course. Snow: I agree with you Alla. Lets look at what young wizards of Dudley's age had to say about the experience of meeting a dementor and match it to what Dudley himself had to say when the dementor attacked him. POA. Pg. 85 Neville said, "It was horrible Did you feel how cold it got when it came in?" " " " " Ron said, "I felt weird Like I'd never be cheerful again" POA. Pg. 86 "Ginny was shaking like mad, though " POA PG. 97 Malfoy "Nearly wet himself," said Fred " " " " George said, "I wasn't too happy myself " " " " Fred said, "Sort of freeze your insides, don't they Now lets match this up with what muggle Dudley had to say: OOP pg. 30 "All dark," Dudley said hoarsely, shuddering. "Everything dark. And then I h-heard things. Inside m-my head " OOP PG.31 "horrible," croaked Dudley. "Cold. Really cold." " " " " "Felt felt felt as if as if " "As if you'd never be happy again," Harry supplied dully. "Yes," Dudley whispered, still trembling. Dudley in just the few statements he made expressed the sentiments of all the other child wizards. In fact Dudley's reaction was more like Harry and Ginny even Malfoy. Dudley threw up and was shaking, feeling extremely faint. Even some of the young wizards like Fred, George, Ron and Neville were not affected to "this" degree. Now take a look at the attack on Dudley from the dementor: OOP pg 19 Dudley was curled on the ground, his arms clamped over his face; a second dementor was crouching low over him, gripping his wrists in its slimy hands, prizing them slowly, almost lovingly apart The dementor took Dudley's hands away from his face. Dudley may have had his eyes shut tight but he must have felt the dementor grab at his wrists and pry his arms away from his face. How could he not feel the tugging of something forcing his arms away from his face so that he could be kissed? Lupin explains in POA pg 187: "Dementors are among the foulest creatures that walk this earth. They infest the darkest, filthiest places, they glory in decay and despair, they drain peace, hope, and happiness out of the air around them. Even Muggles feel their presence, though they can't see them. Here lies the conflict; did Dudley see the dementor? Did he have his eyes shut? What is meant specifically by "feel their presence"; is it "sense" their presence or "physically" feel their presence? If it is sense their presence then why did Dudley obviously feel something pry his arms from his face? If it is the physical sense of the word then why did Mrs. Figgs describe the dementors as running instead of gliding? If a muggle can physically sense a dementor why wouldn't a squib be able to? Hey, even Neville who's family thought he may be all-muggle until he was eight, didn't react to a dementor as badly as Dudley. Dudley couldn't move, had to be drug home and when he got there was throwing up. Don't know for sure but it looks pretty conclusive to me along with the pampered spoiling from his mother who knows a bit about Wizarding life. Dudley appears to be a hidden wizard to me. Snow From snow15145 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 03:45:59 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 03:45:59 -0000 Subject: TR "possessed" by Voldemort? (was Re: Dumbledore knows) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106992 "snow" (me) previously wrote: COS chap. The Heir of Slytherin pg. 313: "Voldemort," said Riddle softly, "is my past, present, and future, Harry Potter " This statement, IMO, leads me to believe that Voldemort is a separate entity from Riddle. "Voldemort" said Riddle " They are as one but not one in the same. This entity, Voldemort, Dark Lord, Dark Wizard, Grindlewald, may be Salizar Slytherin who has possessed many over his life span of the undead. SS pg. 298 "He is still out there somewhere, perhaps looking for another body to share not being truly alive, he cannot be killed " To vanquish just the shell of the person who has been possessed by this entity will not vanquish the entity itself. Quirrell was killed and yet the beast within lived on until it reappeared in another's form. SS chap. The Man with Two Faces pg. 293 "See what I have become? the face said. "Mere shadow and vapor I have form only when I can share another's body but there have always been those willing to let me into their hearts and minds " Those? Must have happened many times before. David: I've heard this theory before, that Riddle is some nice kid that was was possessed by evil V-man. Help me out here, as I've seen no canon for this. Snow: I never meant to imply that Tom Riddle was a good, sweet and innocent person. He may have been good at some point but there is no canon proofs either way. On the contrary, I feel he dabbled just a little too far in his quest for immortality and met up with this entity who promised the helping hand he was looking for. Possibly when Tom opened the chamber the first time he found more than just the basalisk. Why did Tom open the chamber and how did he know it existed to go in search of it? In his search for immortality, in a library book, Hogwarts a History perhaps, he found information on his subject along with his ancestory, which led him to the chamber. The chamber may have held more than one secret. David: V-man clearly states in CoS that he changed his name out of hatred for his muggle father. He so resents his mother dying, his father abandoning him, and the orphanage up-bringing that he throws off all connection by changing his name. Changing his name to something all will fear and respect...Voldemort. He then dedicated his life to the study of the magic and the dark arts for one purpose. Namely, to gain the respect, power, and control he seems to desperately need. Snow: Everything appears to coincide with Tom's fifth year when the chamber was opened when he was sixteen in 1942, also when he changed his name in defiance of his muggle father. Tom was also sixteen when he preserved himself in a diary, which was in Dumbledore's opinion brilliant. COS. Chap. Dobby's Reward pg. 329 Tom was resourceful and had determination also a certain disregard for the rules all the qualities that make a great Slytherin. But for Tom to foresee his possible demise at the age of sixteen to take precautions and preserve himself in a diary seems a bit too brilliant for me without some outside influence. David: Again in GoF as he's 'reborn', he has no problem pointing out to Harry the grave of his father. He doesn't speak in the third person, as if the Tom Riddle life was someone else's. He speaks as if he's deliberately thumbing his nose at his past. Snow: My only rebuttal to this would be that Voldemort was reborn with Harry's blood. Harry has a bit of Tom Riddle in him, which reconnected with the bit of Tom Riddle remaining in Voldemort. Voldemort appears to be astonished by his own sentiments at the graveyard. The Tom Riddle part of Voldemort has been awakened by the blood connection from Harry. From catlady at wicca.net Tue Jul 20 03:53:05 2004 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 03:53:05 -0000 Subject: Clarification On Terminology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106993 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote about the words: "wizard" and "warlock". << We have discussed this before, but without a comment from JKR there is no way to resolve it. I would love to see her address it on her website. The best we could come up with was that it was a cultural thing. Harry seems to know a warlock when the sees one, he speaks of seeing them in the Leaky Cauldron and Three Broomstick. In a room full of wizard, he specifically mentions a select group of warlocks. So they are identifiable. The best I could come up with was that 'wizard' is a Western European term for magical males, and 'warlock' is an Eastern European term for the same thing. Harry identifies warlock based on regional dialets and general appearance. I picture, Eastern Europeans being similar to Krum; dark hair, dark eyes, pale or olive skin, thick accets, etc...>> I don't think it works to say that 'warlocks' are Eastern European. Here are some of the citations: PS/SS: Dumbledore's letterhead includes "Chf. Warlock" among his titles. In OoP, we hear: "They've demoted him from Chief Warlock on the Wizengamot" -- so that's of what he was Chf. Warlock. PS/SS: "Dragon breeding was outlawed by the Warlocks' Convention of 1709" CoS: "International Confederation of Warlocks' Statute of Secrecy" CoS: "the International Warlock Convention of 1289" PoA: "International Federation of Warlocks" CoS: "It's only him and an old warlock called Perkins in the office." in OoP, we see Perkins: "A stooped, timid-looking old wizard with fluffy white hair. CoS: "I might tell you that you can trace my family back through nine generations of witches and warlocks and my blood's as pure as anyone's, so -" QUIDDITCH THROUGH THE AGES calls Quidditch "the noble sport of warlocks", possibly from the title of a 1620 book on page 18. My theory of the meaning of 'warlock' is in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/23355 : "the term "warlock" is the wizarding folk's term for an elected representative, like "M.P." for the Brits." My theory explains that the members of the Wizegamot are titled 'warlocks' so their chairman is 'Chief Warlock', why there are all those Conventions and Confederations of Warlocks passing laws, and why 'warlock' would be simultaneously a title to be proud of, and a type of people who get "rowdy" and "wild-looking". From drliss at comcast.net Mon Jul 19 23:52:52 2004 From: drliss at comcast.net (Lissa Hess) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 19:52:52 -0400 Subject: JKR's FAQ Poll In-Reply-To: <1090265466.44304.24471.m5@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20040719194834.0177fcd8@mail.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 106994 >Stefanie ponders: >Looking at JKR's new FAQ poll on her website, and looking as what >canon has to offer us, which option do you think would help us the >most? > >//1) Is Percy working undercover for any secret organization/boss?// >I can't see this garnering any other response but "no". We get from >the World Book Day chat: >|Q: Was Percy acting entirely of his own >|accord in Order of the Phoenix? >|A: I'm afraid so." > >Meh, and if he *were*, that would seem to be an important plotline >in the next books...not one that JKR would divulge easily and >straigh-forwardly. > >//2) Where has Peter Pettigrew (Wormtail) been since the end >of 'Goblet of Fire'?// > >//3) What did Dumbledore's Howler to Aunt Petunia mean? ('Remember >my last'?)// Lissa: Stefanie- I totally agree with you on Percy. Sadly, I'm pretty convinced that Percy is simply being a prat. (I know the arguments one way or the other, but I take Percy personally as my brother is pulling the same stunt.) I think Percy's actions are in character, and I think there's nothing to be gained there. I do agree that she's being selective about the questions, and will be selective about her answers. It's not going to help us that much. I don't think we'll find out more about the Prank or Snape's story and why he and DD trust each other or if Sirius and Remus were lovers or if Harry will end up with one of our lovely ladies or how he'll defeat Voldie or anything we REALLY want answered until the books are done. I'm torn between 2 and 3, like you. I guess it depends on what side you're more interested in. #2 will give you more ideas about what Voldie's up to, #3 will give more clues about DD. Lissa From timnshell at hotmail.com Tue Jul 20 02:48:35 2004 From: timnshell at hotmail.com (Shell) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 02:48:35 -0000 Subject: famous Last words In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.0.20040719224259.02c81290@mail.toltbbs.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106995 Phil ponders: > By combining the last word from the five books plus adding what > JKR said was the last word in the seventh book you get: > summer world last did wake -- scar > And adding Harry's as the last word of Half Blood Prince, you > get: Summer world last did wake Harry's scar. > > Could this foretell that Harry's scar will wake up during the > Summer of the last book? Shell replies: Phil, that just doesn't make much sense to me. How can a scar *wake up*? The only thing Harry's scar does is warn him of Voldemort's emotions. In book 5, his scar hurt everytime Voldemort got excited or angry. But then, I could be totally off base with this also. I just don't see how his scar is going to do anything other than it has already. From jferer at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 04:36:00 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 04:36:00 -0000 Subject: Clarification On Terminology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106996 Rita:"My theory of the meaning of 'warlock' is in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/23355 : "the term "warlock" is the wizarding folk's term for an elected representative, like "M.P." for the Brits." My theory explains that the members of the Wizegamot are titled 'warlocks' so their chairman is 'Chief Warlock', why there are all those Conventions and Confederations of Warlocks passing laws, and why 'warlock' would be simultaneously a title to be proud of, and a type of people who get "rowdy" and "wild-looking"." That maskes sense, especially if in the modern wizard world you see "warlock" as an archaic usage that still hangs around in the usage of certain kinds of officials. Since in archaic times most of these officials were males, it could explain how the term came to be used. Jim Ferer, who's looking at the RL official's title "Protonotary" and wondering what in the world it is. From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Tue Jul 20 04:53:10 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 20 Jul 2004 04:53:10 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussion, Fudge and Dudley demented Message-ID: <20040720045310.15369.qmail@webmail6.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106997 >>1) When Harry thinks that he is a danger to others, why is his first >> instinct to go back to Privet Drive?<< Amey: His first instinct is to go back to Hogwarts, but then he remembers that there are many students waiting to be attacked there. Then I think he may have remembered what LV says in the graveyard: ?Dumbledore invoked an ancient magic, to ensure the boy's protection as long as he is in his relations' care. Not even I can touch him there. . . .? So, he would have thought that he will be safe from attacking anyone if he is in Privet Drive. And also, Privet Drive is a separate world from *his* world, but the gap was fused by dementor attack. And after facing dementors, he must be sure to face anybody (except LV, who can?t touch him there). - "mrslestrange": - Not to mention: - (Vernon to TV) "You didn't tell us where that maniac's escaped from! - What use is that? Lunatic could be coming up the street right now!" - Aunt Petunia, who was bony and horse-faced, whipped around and - peered intently out of the kitchen window. - There are other instances in which Petunia reacts oddly to WW threats, - and clambers protectively to Dudley, but I can't put my finger on - them. Simple motherly love, Amey: Yes, I came across that today morning. Doesn?t it seem a bit conspicuous that she thinks Sirius might be coming after Harry? Well, they don?t know he is wizard, and she is *inquisitive*, but then peering out of kitchen window? Was she expecting him to come by the road or what? - In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meltowne" wrote: - 4 - in PoA, Crouch wants to make sure Harry stays in Diagon Alley. I - don't think it's to protect Harry, but to keep Sirius from being - able to contact him. Fudge may know why Sirius survived Azkaban - - he wasn't guilty. I think Fudge can't afford for Harry to talk to - Sirius. Amey: Factor in 1. Sirius? mirror playing some role in coming books 2. Having a new minister instead of Fudge in book 6 And it all takes the form of some concrete thoughts. But personally I believe Fudge is too cowardly to be a DE. I think he is joining up with Lucius because in the process his pockets must be getting heavier. - Snow - Hey, even Neville who's family thought he may be all-muggle until he - was eight, didn't react to a dementor as badly as Dudley. Dudley - couldn't move, had to be drug home and when he got there was throwing - up. Don't know for sure but it looks pretty conclusive to me along - with the pampered spoiling from his mother who knows a bit about - Wizarding life. Dudley appears to be a hidden wizard to me. Amey: I agree about the conclusion, though there is no cannon (should I add not yet ;D). But then in case of all children in the carriage that day, dementor was not focusing on them, there was only one and so many of them and most important, he didn?t try to kiss anybody. So I think Dudley?s reaction to attack is not that out of character. We don?t have any other instance of dementor attacking muggle, so we can?t say anything. but, Dudley looks a bit suspicious. Amey, who is now trying to solve murder mystery put by Wanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 20 05:13:43 2004 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 06:13:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Books 6 & 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040720051343.58464.qmail@web25102.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 106998 Sorry Sylvia, You are quite right. It was late and I should have checked my facts. No, it doesn't alter my theory because the name of the person who got decapitated isn't relevant; it's the fact that he sacrificed himself for the happiness of others, and that's what impresses Jo! Thanks though. Hans --- ladyramkin2000 wrote: --------------------------------- Hans in Holland wrote: There are two other pointers to decapitation I haven't included in my original post. A. The decapitation of the wizard in the fountain in the atrium of the MoM B. The decapitation of Darnay in A Tale of Two Cities by Charles Dickens. Hans, you must have been reading a different version of Dickens' novel to me. The chap who is guillotined at the end of the book is Sidney Carton, not Charles Darnay. Sidney sacrifices himself to save another man, thereby redeeming what has been a largely wasted life. I don't know if this alters your theory at all. Sylvia ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From mayeaux45 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 02:59:36 2004 From: mayeaux45 at yahoo.com (mayeaux45) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 02:59:36 -0000 Subject: Cold case files - The Riddle Case In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 106999 Wanda wrote: > > 2. The maid found them in the morning, in the drawing room, still > dressed in their dinner clothes. what was the usual pattern: > people would dress, then go down and eat dinner, then...go to the > drawing room? Was that normal? > > 3. The cook must have cooked the dinner, and I suppose also cleaned > up after. So there was no one else eating with the Riddles, or she > would have known. And nothing unusual happened while the servants > were around. > > > 5. Did the servants sleep in the house, or did they come and > go every day? If they were IN the house, then three murders took > place without anyone hearing any disturbance. The cook assumes it's > because they were all asleep, but why were all 3 Riddles up so late, > fully dressed, in the drawing room instead of going to bed like the > rest of the household? Good post Wanda! As far as I know, the servants can leave whenever they are dismissed. The Riddles could have been murdered that same night. The cook MUST have found them the following morning, so therefore, they really weren't up late at all. The Riddles could have retired to the drawing room and in doing so, dismissed the servants for the evening. It's during this time that we (the readers) are confused about what really transpired. I've read GoF a few times and I'm confused about one part of the Riddle murders...the book said 3 Riddles. The Mother, Father, and...Tom? But Tom Marvolo Riddle is Lord Voldemort, so.......I'm confused! Who are the 3 Riddles? P.S. This was probably obvious and I just missed it, so please be gentle if that is the case. If not, some serious critical thinking is an order! > Meri now: > What if young Tom revealed himself to his long-lost father > and grandparents before killing them? What if there was a sort of > confrontation, where Tom enters the house (or is let in by the > Riddles on false pretenses), says something along the lines of, > "Hey, Dad, I'm your long lost son, where the hell have you been for > the last seventeen years?" and then proceeds to have a little fun > with his wand and his hated Muggle family. O.K. some questions of mine seemed to have been answered with this particular post. It's been a while since I've read CoS...did JKR mention in the book that Tom's dad left his mother after he found out she was a witch. Because that would explain it! I didn't come to the conclusion by reading that chapter in GoF that the 3 Riddles were Tom's father and his grandparents.... P.S. Maybe I should read CoS to find some more hidden clues...apparently I've missed something! :( Mayeaux45 From reyakittens at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 03:05:55 2004 From: reyakittens at yahoo.com (tamuril elensar) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 03:05:55 -0000 Subject: JKR's narrative strategy (Was: Whose point of view ?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107000 Sylvia wrote: > It wouldn't matter if David Copperfield had twenty times the > (considerable) number of characters Dickens employs, the story > would still be seen entirely from David's POV, just as the HP books > are seen entirely from Harry's. Adi responded: > Harry Potter books aren't written from Harry's point of view. They > are written from the author's bird-eye-view, if one may call it > that. > Remember the first chapter of Book4 where the point of view shifted > to the action in the Riddle house though Harry wasn't there. Though > Harry was dreaming all this, it wasn't written like that. First the > action was presented, then it was told that Harry had also been > dreaming about the incidents. If it had been written from Harry's > point of view, it should have started with Harry sleeping on his > bed la la la and then gone onto the Riddle House, as it happens with > the many dreams Harry has in Book5. Robyn->You know, I was thinking on this rereading the books -- whose point of view are you reading from. Well... you do tend to favor who Harry's favors and there is something to be said that they are written from his point of view. Being written from his point of view doesn't mean that it's everything he sees. It just means you tend to see things the way he sees them. While I was rereading OOTP I came across one part that I actually stopped and thought, wow, there is proof JK writes this through Harry's eyes (hey, I majored in rhetoric! So I'm always looking closest at the words:-)). The scene is in chapter thirteen where Grubbly-Plank is teaching about the Bowtruckles and JK writes: "Kindly keep your voice down, girls!" said Professor Grubby-Plank sharply, scattering a handful of what looked like brown rice among the stick-creatures..." If you read down a few lines Hermione identifies this brown rice as "wood lice," said Hermione promptly, which explained why what Harry had taken for grains of brown rice were moving" (258-259 US Edition). After reading this, I started thinking now it is shown there that in the text Harry saw the wood lice as brown rice... even though the diction says this before actually identifying the thought as Harry's. It made me start to think this text is being seen through Harry's point of view. Now, I understand what others are saying about Harry not being there for every scene. No, it's not told in the first person but I feel you are more likely to lean towards what Harry is thinking in terms of how he feels about other characters, classes, etc. Just a thought. Robyn From theadimail at yahoo.co.in Tue Jul 20 05:42:16 2004 From: theadimail at yahoo.co.in (theadimail) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 05:42:16 -0000 Subject: JKR's narrative strategy (Was: Whose point of view ?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107001 Hi, carol:It's important to distinguish among different > types of narrative strategies because they affect our interaction with > and understanding of the characters But a limited omniscient character can sometimes use a character other > than the protagonist (e.g. Vernon Dursley in SS/PS chapter one) or > report events without revealing the thoughts of any characters adi: I agree with what you most of the time but I have some problem with this 'limited' omniscient view. How come JKR'S view is limited? After all she is the creator, she knows everything about these characters that is there to know and what she doesn't know doesn't exist either, the world she created doesn't exist outside her, independently. So how come her omniscience is 'limited'? It's complete and total. And yes, I'm not master in English but it strikes me as odd that omniscience can ever be limited. It is either there or not. Like pregnant. Is there a limited pregnancy? carol: Equally interesting is the choice of characters whose minds the > narrator does not and perhaps cannot enter: Dumbledore, Snape, the > DADA teacher of the moment, Sirius Black, Petunia Dursley, and many > others. This limitation keeps us guessing about these characters' > motives and prevents us from knowing what's really going on to the > extent that these characters know it (or think they know it, since > even Dumbledore can be wrong The fact doesn't mean that the narrator hasn't entered these minds doesn't mean that she can't. And if she really can't, there must be some reason as to why she can enter only certain minds and not others. Remembering something, Dumbledore was described independently and not from anybody's POV, in the first chapter of Book !..." Nobody ahd seen a man like this before.."(quoting from memory). Even Snape too(" he hated him", from first book). And I've got a philosophical doubt. Is the narrator different from the author? Adi, who is somewhat petrified by carol's technical mastery From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue Jul 20 05:49:17 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 05:49:17 -0000 Subject: Books 6 & 7 In-Reply-To: <20040719220026.16529.qmail@web25103.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107002 > Hans Andr?a wrote: > > 7. I said they'd be decapitated - I didn't say they'd be executed. Perhaps the decapitation will happen some other way. Perhaps by magic, perhaps by some accident, I just don't know. > Valky: What about floo heads then? It may be a symbolic way to separate their heads from their bodies. I have a few postulations that go with this theory but I can't seem to extricate R and H dying in some way during it, or at least being vulnerable to an attack without defense. A second way to consider it is the mirror that Sirius gave to Harry, perhaps Harry might pass through the veil and is able to contact his best friends from the other side, presumably if he used the mirror he would only be able to see their heads and gain from that and not their physical assistance. The result is of course Harry ressurected from the Gate of Saturn, presuming he does so, and bringing his connection with R and H with him. Of course, I am probably entirely off the mark but at least its some possible scenarios that don't involve scenes of gratuitous carnage enacted on our favourite couple. From WanderingStar20 at aol.com Tue Jul 20 04:00:42 2004 From: WanderingStar20 at aol.com (wanderingstar1979) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 04:00:42 -0000 Subject: Who would love Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107003 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" > > wrote: > > Potioncat: > > I once came up with idea that Snape is a cockroach animagus and > > posted it about a year ago. It was before I was familiar with > > checking canon first and there was a major canon flaw to my idea. > >(Thank goodness!) But there is canon support for it as well. > > One of the things that keeps haunting me about that idea, is > > that cockroaches have an oily protective coating. The strongest > > argument against it is that cockroaches don't like the cold. And > > Snape's dungeon is always cold. > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "koinonia02" > wrote: > "K": > We are talking about the HP books. The oily hair is mentioned > constantly. Either it's just a description used to make Snape > appear all the more evil or there's something up with his > appearance. Hi! I'm new here, and although I love analyzing books to death, I have to admit that ultimately I belong to the "wait and see" camp. I will be completely amazed if it turns out that JKR really thought out ahead of time every single little piece of symbolism that I'm scrutinizing, and every teeny tiny "clue." All the same, I (the research nut that I am) am currently working on a gigantic (perhaps ridiculous) theory about the books that I'm sure my list Elf will have a fabulous time going over before she can post it for me (my newbie self having moderated status and all), and that I'm sure you all will think I'm crazy after reading. :-) So, with those disclaimers, here's to analytical joy! I was thinking about what K and Potioncat had to say about the significance of Snape's predilection for the cold and his "oiliness" or "greasiness," and about Potioncat's theory of Snape as an animagus. Now, as a newbie, I may be committing the same error of not checking canon as thoroughly as I should before attempting to post, but I thought that anything is possible, and instead Snape being a cockroach animagus (and therefore needing the protective oily coating), I thought of OTHER animals. In particular, I thought about animals that like or prefer the cold, are at least partially black, white (pale skin), and might have some yellow coloring (teeth), that can be found in Europe, that might be able to fly or at least have a wingspan (bat references), and that have a NEED for some kind of grease or oil for their well-being. Here is what I found: SWANS: Cygnus Coscoroba Yes, wouldn't this be odd ... or maybe not so odd, considering the Hans Christian Andersen tale? Perhaps that is what is so fascinating about it! There are a few different types of swans: the Trumpeter, the Mute, the Tundra (Berwick's or Whistling), the Whooper, the Black, and the Black-Necked (http://www.fact-index.com/s/sw/swan.html). Now, this is a bit of a preview of my other theory, but suppose JKR really does plot out stuff like this, what if it doesn't completely fit her "plan"? Well, artistic license of course! An author is allowed to take species, theories, what have you, and combine them into characters, or make more than one character out of them, or change them to her liking, right? So if not every bit of information matches the books EXACTLY, I suppose that's to be expected (that's what the idea of "based on" is all about). Now, I could only find this information on a website about the Trumpeter Swan (although it is native to North America, not Europe), so I can't draw the conclusion that ALL swans do this, but one *might* make that assumption: "When preening, a Trumpeter presses its bill against the base of the tail to extract a greasy fluid from an oil gland. This is used to recondition, clean, and waterproof the feathers." (http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/land/er/factsheets/birds/swan.htm) It would make a lot of sense if Snape's oily hair served a real purpose, wouldn't it? :-) Not to say he is definitely an animagus, but as Potioncat proposed, it makes for an interesting possibility. Although I can't recall for certain, I don't think anyone actually ever said: "I know for sure that he is NOT registered with the MOM as an animagus." Even if someone HAD said that, it doesn't mean he isn't, because 1.) As we've seen with Rita Skeeter, people don't necessarily register themselves if they are being sneaky, and 2.) As we've seen with Sirius (who said at one point, I believe, that only three (? four if you count the dead) knew he was an animagus), not everyone has to know if one is an animagus. More on swans: Most of the swans are white, but have at least partially black bills. Perhaps this is indicative of Snape's pale complexion and dark hair and clothing? Also, some of the species (The Tundra - Berwick's - and The Whooper) have yellow on their bills - again, perhaps indicative of Snape's yellow teeth? There is a particular species of swan, the Black Swan (from Australia), which is black with a red beak and white patches under its wings. Again, none of this information matches PERFECTLY, but taken as a whole, it certainly suggests some of Snape's appearance - especially the white, black, yellow color theme. Then again, anything thought about long enough can suggest just about anything else, and I'm fully willing to admit it, but it's food for thought. (http://www.fact-index.com/s/sw/swan.html) (http://www.fact-index.com/m/mu/mute_swan.html) (http://www.fact-index.com/t/tu/tundra_swan.html) (http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/land/er/factsheets/birds/swan.htm) Then, there's that myth (or maybe not so myth) that swans mate for life. This should prove particularly satisfying for those who favor the LOLLIPOPS ship, or one of those sort of lost love, or "Love Boat" kind of SHIPS. If, indeed, Snape is an ugly duckling/swan, or merely has the characteristics of one, and has mated for life, if his mate is lost, no wonder he is so depressed! OR, if his mate is NOT lost, then perhaps we have yet to meet her and he is merely protecting the nest? About the Mute Swan: "These monogamous birds reuse the same nest each year." Well, Snape keeps coming back to Hogwarts! Wasn't there a post a while ago about where he went during the holidays? His actions used to be kind of ... predictable? "Although this bird can be tame, it is aggressive in defense of its nest, and its size and impressive hissing make it a formidable adversary for animals as large as a Fox." Impressive hissing, huh? Like, a snake or a Slytheryn? I'm curious if anyone remembers Snape being characterized as "hissing"? For the life of me, I can't remember! "Unlike Black Swans, Mute Swans are strongly territorial. The familiar pose with neck curved back and wings half raised is a threat display." So, no wonder he goes swooping around like a bat, maybe his mate is nearby! Maybe that's why he gets so pissed off when he thinks Harry has been in his office? "Despite its name, this bird can make a variety of hisses and grunts," or insults? Ha ha ha "but it is certainly much less vocal than the noisy Whooper and Berwick's Swans." Well, yes, he's not very social. "The most familiar sound associated with Mute Swan is the whistling of the wings in flight once this bird has laboriously taken off from the water." Or the familiar sound of his swishing cloak as he turns and walks away? Something like that, I know it's been in a post lately. I'm sorry I couldn't quote all your wonderful postings! (http://www.fact-index.com/m/mu/mute_swan.html) I should warn, however, that I have read that certain swans do not mate for life. Most of what I found DOES indicate that they ARE monogamous, and EXTREMELY territorial and vicious when protecting their nest, mate or young ones. "All Mute Swans in Britain are considered the property of the British monarch" I just thought that was funny, sorry. I also thought this was kind of interesting: "Cygnus, the Swan, is also a constellation. The star Deneb is a blue supergiant and forms the swan's tail, and one of the vertices of the so-called "Summer Triangle". In a Chinese love story, Deneb marks the magpie bridge across the Milky Way that allows separated lovers to be reunited on one special night of the year in late summer. In other versions, Deneb is a fairy who acts as chaperone when the lovers meet. The star Albireo is at the swan's beak. It is one of the most beautiful double stars of the sky, a golden star. Another interesting star is 61 Cygni. This star has one of the highest proper motions of any star in the sky (except the Sun). It is one of the closest stars to our solar system. The star 16 Cygni B is an extrasolar planetary system. Cygnus also contains Cygnus X-1, which is considered to be one of the most likely black hole candidates. Several star clusters and nebulae are found in Cygnus. History and Mythology In Greek mythology, the constellation represents several different legendary swans. Zeus disguised himself as a swan to rape Leda, who gave birth to the Gemini, Helen of Troy, and Clytemnestra. Orpheus was transformed into a swan after his murder, and was said to have been placed in the sky next to his lyre. Finally, it is said that a youth named Cygnus was the lover of the ill-fated Phaethon. Cygnus searched desperately for his body in the river Eridanus. Zeus took pity on him and changed him into the waterbird that has since borne his name." (http://www.fact-index.com/c/cy/cygnus.html) Well, if you didn't like that star stuff (how could you not?) how about this: guess what other constellations CYGNUS the SWAN borders? How about: CEPHEUS, the legendary king of Ethiopia, father of ANDROMEDA, and husband of CASSIOPEIA. (http://www.fact-index.com/c/ce/cepheus__constellation_.html) DRACO, the dragon (http://www.fact-index.com/d/dr/draco__constellation_.html) LYRA, the lyre VULPECULA, the Fox PEGASUS, the winged horse (http://www.fact-index.com/p/pe/pegasus__constellation_.html) ... that in turn borders ANDROMEDA (Andromeda was a princess condemned to be sacrificed to a sea monster; she was rescued by the hero PERSEUS.) LACERTA, the lizard (http://www.fact-index.com/l/la/lacerta.html) ... that in turn borders CASSIOPEIA (mother of ANDROMEDA and wife of CEPHEUS) Tres weird, no? I think that's enough about swans ... but what about other birds???? I know, you hate me already!!! Well, I'll spare you the details. I read about Vultures, Ravens, Puffins, and Penguins. There is at least one "type" of each bird that either doesn't mind or prefers the cold. Also, Penguins and Puffins swim and therefore have to have waterproof feathers, which calls for an oily or greasy coating. If I recall correctly, Ravens waterproof their feathers as well? All these birds (I think) are also pretty territorial when their nests or mates are threatened. Puffins are kind of small, though, but they are black and white, and can have yellow beaks. Penguins, as we well know, do not come in colors other than black and white, unfortunately for my theory J. Vultures come in many different colors and sizes and climates. What's interesting about vultures is that I read on one site that some cultures believed that they were psychic because they were always there before creatures had died, making it seem like they had foreknowledge of the event. Perhaps this mimics Snape's talents? Vultures are also apparently very "misunderstood" - I know all you Snape fans will love that one - according to some Vulture fan websites. Some vultures are social, but others are very solitary. Ravens are quite intellectual, in fact, many believe that they have their own "language" and can even communicate with humans somewhat. On two different websites, I read that in North America, ravens and WOLVES cooperate to find food - hmmmm, Snape and Lupin anyone? Ravens are also undisputedly monogamous and also quite romantic (awwww). Anyone remember "Mrs. Frisby and the Rats of NIMH?" I think those birds at the end were ravens. Maybe crows. Well, anyway.... I meant for all the information I had found on the other bird species to be as detailed and well thought out as the section on swans, but you are probably bored to tears already, and I lost half the pages along the way. :-( Sorry if my first attempt at posting was a disaster! I guess my point was ... hi? "wanderingstar1979" From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 05:52:52 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 05:52:52 -0000 Subject: Dudley Demented (???) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107004 Snow: > Hey, even Neville who's family thought he may be all-muggle until he > was eight, didn't react to a dementor as badly as Dudley. Dudley > couldn't move, had to be drug home and when he got there was throwing > up. Don't know for sure but it looks pretty conclusive to me along > with the pampered spoiling from his mother who knows a bit about > Wizarding life. Dudley appears to be a hidden wizard to me. > Snow Antosha: There's another possibility. Professor Lupin points out to Harry that the reason that he reacts so strongly to dementors, and the reason they are so drawn to him, is that his worst memory is particularly horrible, and therefore delicious to the creatures. Perhaps Dudley's worst memory is, in fact, also quite traumatic, so that a) one of the dementors sent to attack Harry is drawn instead to his cousin and b) the dementor has a particularly chilling (if I may use that word) effect on Dudley. My memory is that there was some discussion of this issue, speculating about what Dudley's worst memory might actually be, around the time I joined this list, some months back. From jlawlor at gmail.com Tue Jul 20 04:30:44 2004 From: jlawlor at gmail.com (James Lawlor) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 23:30:44 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] New JKR FAQ Poll: Which is significant? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96773c88040719213024c77543@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107005 Stefanie > //3) What did Dumbledore's Howler to Aunt Petunia mean? ('Remember > my last'?)// > I'm tempted to vote for this the most, and at the same time...gah! > The wording of the Howler is so strange. We do know we're going to > learn more about Lily in the upcoming books, and I *know* this point > has been debated endlessly...but I have a feeling that even if she > doesn't answer this straightforwardly, she'd let some clues drop. > > So...any ideas on what would help us out the most here? > James: Seems that the majority is voting for #3. Count me in as well. :D As for Percy, I'm pretty much convinced he's just being a git, and hopefully he'll come around. I really don't care where Peter is, I'm sure we'll find out eventually. But I'll certainly jump at the chance to find out more about Dumbledore, Petunia, and/or Lily. - James Lawlor jlawlor at gmail.com From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 06:24:41 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 06:24:41 -0000 Subject: Clarification On Terminology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107006 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote > about the words: "wizard" and "warlock". > > << ... The best we could come up with was that it was a cultural > thing. Harry seems to know a warlock when the sees one, he speaks of > seeing them in the Leaky Cauldron and Three Broomstick. In a room > full of wizard, he specifically mentions a select group of warlocks. > So they are identifiable. > > The best I could come up with was that 'wizard' is a Western > European term for magical males, and 'warlock' is an Eastern > European term for the same thing. ....>> > Rita: > > I don't think it works to say that 'warlocks' are Eastern European. > Here are some of the citations: > > ...edited... > > My theory of the meaning of 'warlock' is in > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/message/23355 : > "the term "warlock" is the wizarding folk's term for an elected > representative, like "M.P." for the Brits." > > My theory explains that the members of the Wizegamot are titled > 'warlocks' so their chairman is 'Chief Warlock', why there are all > those Conventions and Confederations of Warlocks passing laws, and > why 'warlock' would be simultaneously a title to be proud of, and a > type of people who get "rowdy" and "wild-looking". > > Rita Asain_lovr2: Sorry, but I don't think you have adequately explained how, in a room full of wizards, Harry can single out and identify a small group of Warlocks. Are you implying that nine generations of Ernie Macmillan's family have been elected government officials? That's not impossible, but it's a slight stretch. I think the two term, in essense, mean the same thing; wizards and warlocks are socerers. The difference is that 'wizard' takes on an English context, and 'Warlock' takes on a greater European context. So perhaps in pointing out the 'wild-looking' 'Rowdy' wizards as warlocks, he is, in a sense, pointing out foreign European wizards. Also note that in Dumbledore's list of titles, his is a titled 'Socerer', 'Warlock', 'Wizard', and 'Supreme Mugwump'. Mugwump is actually American Indian for 'chief'. -PoA- " ...venerable-looking wizards arguing over the latest article in Transfiguration Today; */wild-looking warlocks/*; raucous dwarfs; and once, what looked suspiciously like a hag, who ordered a plate of raw liver from behind a thick woollen balaclava." "It was extremely crowded, noisy, warm, and smoky. A curvy sort of woman with a pretty face was serving a bunch of */rowdy warlock/* up at the bar." -OotP- "... a */grubby-looking warlock/* in the corner clanged like a bell every time he moved and, with each clang, his head vibrated horribly so that he had to seize himself by the ears to hold it steady." Nor have you adequately explained why Warlock/Elected-Goverment-Officials would be "Wild-looking", "Rowdy", or "grubby-looking". Using your logic, one could just as easily argue, that 'Warlock' indentifies men in uniform; army, navy, marines, police. That fits the 'wild-looking', 'rowdy', and 'grubby' image much better than members of Parliment. Dumbledores title of 'Chief Warlock' could just indicate that he is a high ranking officer in the Judicial branch of the wizard's military. One could argue that the books don't show any military, but they don't actually show any police either, but we have the Department of Law Enforcement which has several sub-departments, among which are the Auror's Office and Mr. Weasley's department. Since the UK wizard world is small, it seems reasonable that police and military are one and the same. I'm not saying I believe ANY of this, I'm just trying to come up with logical explanation for that which is not explained. Just a thought. Steve/asian_lovr2 From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 20 07:29:58 2004 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 08:29:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Books 6 & 7 - tragedy or triumph? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040720072958.32859.qmail@web25107.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107007 > Hans Andra wrote: > > 7. I said they'd be decapitated - I didn't say they'd be executed. Perhaps the decapitation will happen some other way. Perhaps by magic, perhaps by some accident, I just don't know. Valky: What about floo heads then? It may be a symbolic way to separate their heads from their bodies. I have a few postulations that go with this theory but I can't seem to extricate R and H dying in some way during it, or at least being vulnerable to an attack without defence. A second way to consider it is the mirror that Sirius gave to Harry, perhaps Harry might pass through the veil and is able to contact his best friends from the other side, presumably if he used the mirror he would only be able to see their heads and gain from that and not their physical assistance. The result is of course Harry resurrected from the Gate of Saturn, presuming he does so, and bringing his connection with R and H with him. Of course, I am probably entirely off the mark but at least its some possible scenarios that don't involve scenes of gratuitous carnage enacted on our favourite couple. Hans: Thanks Valky, anything is possible here. A lot of my theories have formed after reading posts so thanks for adding your thoughts. I have one big question about Liberation. Perhaps you people can help me understand this. Why is this process often depicted as being full of suffering and sorrow, when in fact liberation is the most wonderful and beautiful thing there is. I just don't know why Harry has to suffer so much. I don't know why Jesus' crucifixion is regarded as such torture. And the Alchemical Wedding with its 7 decapitations isn't exactly a tea party either. Yet what can be more ecstatic than to be liberated from our own inner evil? Sure, it's hard work. It's painful to have to give up the forces within us that enslave us to the past and which have accumulated to become world-dominating, but in essence the process is overwhelmingly joyous. Just think of the beauty of Harry and Hermione saving Buckbeak and Sirius, of Harry setting Dobby free, of Fawkes' tears saving Harry, or of Harry's love of Sirius. To attempt to answer my own question, perhaps the darkness and tragedy are there to offset the ultimate light and sublimity of it. I guess people are in fact attracted by the struggle of light against darkness. The harder and darker the struggle, the more effulgent the ultimate victory of the light. I want to put on record here and now though, that in fact Harry's Path of Liberation (as explained in my essay) is one of unimaginable beauty, ecstasy and joy. Hans ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From SnapesRaven at web.de Tue Jul 20 09:27:10 2004 From: SnapesRaven at web.de (SnapesRaven) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:27:10 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Something wrong with this Fudge References: Message-ID: <004f01c46e3b$bc084180$0202a8c0@henrike> No: HPFGUIDX 107008 Good morning! meltowne wrote: "What do we know about Fudge? Fudge clearly holds some of the same beliefs as the death eaters, regarding muggles and half-bloods. Is he a death eater, or does he at least simpathize with them? Or is he just so power-hungry that he will side with whichever side e thinks is most strong?" SnapesRaven: I have to add a thought on this... Speaking of Death Eaters... Isn't Fudge talking to- and taking money from- no other than Lucius *the Death Eater* Malfoy at the MOM in OOTP? - My guess is that Fudge at least sympathizes with the DE's, even though his official task is to... well, what is it, after all? To protect the wizarding world (from evil, harm, Voldemort?)? To establish a working system (no matter of which kind??!?) featuring rules, laws and so on...? I think he wants to gain - and hold his - power, mark his reaction to 'Dumbledore's Army' in OOTP... Normally, I'd think he and Dumbledore work together... but with the power-hungry (another trait many DE's obviously have) Fudge this is unthinkable. SnapesRaven [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue Jul 20 09:10:05 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 09:10:05 -0000 Subject: Books 6 & 7 - tragedy or triumph? In-Reply-To: <20040720072958.32859.qmail@web25107.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107009 > > Hans Andr?a wrote: > Perhaps the decapitation will happen some other way. Perhaps by > magic, perhaps by some accident, I just don't know. > > > Valky: > What about floo heads then? > It may be a symbolic way to separate their heads from their bodies. I have a few postulations that go with this theory but I can't seem to extricate R and H dying in some way during it, or at least being vulnerable to an attack without defence. > Hans: > I have one big question about Liberation. Perhaps you people can help me understand this. Why is this process often depicted as being full of suffering and sorrow, when in fact liberation is the most wonderful and beautiful thing there is. Valky: Perhaps I should explain myself here, Hans. Just in case my post came across as implying I fear or might be adverse to the thought that Ron and Hermione, or any other characters, will die as a part of the series. The fact is, I am not adverse to it, personally. What I *really* meant by saying I cannot extricate their deaths from the scenario *was not* that I think death should be avoided in the final books, but actually that I think even if the decapitation is presented in this symbolic fashion, R and H would still die. Their deaths would be essential if the scenario is to actually capture the essence of the liberation even in this symbolic way. I (Valky) previously said: > Of course, I am probably entirely off the mark but at least its some possible scenarios that don't involve scenes of gratuitous carnage enacted on our favourite couple. > Hans also replied: > To attempt to answer my own question, perhaps the darkness and tragedy are there to offset the ultimate light and sublimity of it. I guess people are in fact attracted by the struggle of light against darkness. The harder and darker the struggle, the more effulgent the ultimate victory of the light. > Valky now: In this matter I thoroughly agree with you, Hans. The story will become darker and that will definitely make the ultimate victory of Harry Potter all the more exhilarating for me. To that end, I would be dissapointed if JkR was to, herself, attempt to muffle such a beautiful message with soft renderings of the "Death and Rebirth" or *too* mild portrayals of the suffering of Harry. I am positive that she won't. She has already done so, and very well, in her first book of the series. Harry Potter and the Philosophers Stone *is the Childrens Book*. It is age appropriate and has the entire message encapsulated so brilliantly that JKR may never have needed to write another if she were just writing for children. I firmly believe that the series is intended to grow with the reader and the dark and serious themes that we expect at the end will not seem out of place in their context. So here I am merely saying that, when I said we could avoid gratuitous carnage in the final books, what I intend is to acknowledge that the notion of decapitating our beloved R and H conjures an image of unnecessary graphic bloodshed in the context of the books. It is most likely, that *this* is what motivates the kneejerk reaction, that some of us might have, to a suggestion that the decapitation from the AW will be translated into the HP universe. For those who can *only* understand this AW theme might be served by gratiutous carnage it is a preposterous concept. Myself, I am open to anything that Potterverse needs to throw at me, even severed heads. Valky (acknowlegding that thats a *horrible* joke but yet unable to take it away from the post and replace it with a line of equal meaning) Best to All. From patientx3 at aol.com Tue Jul 20 09:34:46 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 09:34:46 -0000 Subject: Something wrong with this Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107010 meltowne wrote: >> I've been thinking abou our friend from the ministry, Cornelius Fudge. I can't quite decide what to make of him, but I know there's something odd that JKR has been hinting at all along. << HunterGreen: You know, I think so too. Evidence for an ESE!Fudge is ridiculously easy to put together. We all just accept that he's only out to get Dumbledore in OotP because he's afraid of Dumbledore -- that is of Dumbledore trying to take his job -- even though Dumbledore has NEVER shown any interest in it. AND its just accepted that he doesn't think that Voldemort is back, when at the end of GoF, he couldn't (decently) retort to Dumbledore when Dumbledore said "I am working against Voldemort, if you are too, we are on the same side." (paraphrased). But suddenly in OotP he's gung-ho to get Harry expelled, get Dumbledore discredited, and take over Hogwarts...why? (I know the reasons the book gives, they just seem a little weak). It just reminds me of the fact that Voldemort never dared attack Hogwarts during his first rise to power, with Umbridge there it would have been mighty easy... >> 1 - He was the first on the scene when Wormtail disappeared. Everything the rest of the wizarding world knows about what happened there is based on his account. Why was Fudge there - and did he maybe witness the event, not just the aftermath? Did he cast sme sort of charm on Sirius to make him behave that way, making him appear insane? << Since about my second read of PoA, I've thought that Peter tossed a cheering charm at Sirius right before he cut off his finger, which is why Sirius was standing there laughing. (it just seems so odd that cheering charms are specifically explained earlier in PoA and then never brought up again, almost as though she was writing it that way, but it got written out for some reason). I don't know, I suppose it COULD have been Fudge tossing a spell at Sirius, but I think he was already acting umbalenced enough already, what with the circumstances. >> 3 - Fudge got the Minister job when it appeared that Crouch had a bad apple in his family. Was Barty really responsible for torturing the Longbottoms? Why did Fudge have the dementors kiss him so quickly? I think Barty Jr knew something about Fudge that he wanted kept hidden. << Or maybe he just wanted to make sure Barty Jr. didn't testify to anyone else about Voldemort coming back. I wonder about Barty Jr. though...from his reaction in the pensieve, I wonder how 'evil' he was before spending 10 or so years trapped under the imperious curse being forced to hide in the house under an invisibility cloak most of the time. We really can't know for sure *how* involved he was in torturing the Longbottoms (there were *four* people there, covering two people, who would have been incapacitated real quick). Barty Jr. really fascinates me, he was a pretty good teacher (the second-best of all the DADA teacher's we've seen), he was VERY good at impersonating Moody, and he had a knack for gaining people's trust, I wonder what sort of person he could have been if his life hadn't taken such a turn. >>4 - in PoA, Crouch wants to make sure Harry stays in Diagon Alley. I don't think it's to protect Harry, but to keep Sirious from being able to contact him. Fudge may know why Sirious survived Azkaban - he wasn't guilty. I think Fudge can't afford for Harry to talk to Sirious.<< There was a thread back in May concerning PoA and the dementers and all that (it starts here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/98014 ) While responding to it, I realized how odd the dementers act in PoA, as though they are more interested in Harry than they are in Sirius. Also, Kneasy brought up Sirius' strangely easy escape from Azkaban, suggesting that he may have been helped (either directly or indirectly). It seems the person most likely to do that would be Fudge. Here's an exerpt: HunterGreen previousy: (in msg 98042) >So he helps Sirius escape, which accomplishes two things: 1-Sirius might kill Harry, and 2-He has an excuse to dispatch the dementers to Hogwarts and have *them* kill Harry. We don't know what is motivating Fudge though, it could be a ESE!Fudge or just him being influence/threatened by anyone. The case for an ESE!Fudge is right there, its like its *too* obvious. (now I keep thinking about how odd it is that the dementers not only attacked Harry at the end of PoA but tried to perform the "kiss" on him, even though Sirius was lying feet away).< Its also interesting to note that Fudge *doesn't* contact Harry when Sirius escapes, nor does he encourage anyone (like the Weasley's for example) to go collect Harry from the Dursely's and keep an eye on him. Yes, Dumbledore doesn't do that either, and it doesn't occur to Arthur or Molly to go get Harry, but Fudge is in charge of all this. He is the one deciding to keep the fact that Sirius is going after Harry a secret (he tells Arthur not to tell Harry), yet he doesn't think to try and protect Harry. If Sirius had *really* been out to kill Harry, he would have suceeded (right before the Knight Bus shows up, there was enough time for Dog! Sirius to grab Harry and maul him to death....but of course he didn't want to do that at all). And even after that close call, Fudge still doesn't think its important to tell Harry the REASON why he should stay out of muggle London. Why? Does he actually care about Harry's mental health? I just don't buy that. He hasn't even MET Harry before, why would it matter to him if he makes Harry a little paranoid? Even Arthur, who DOES know Harry thinks its more important for Harry to know the truth than live in blissful dangerous ignorance. Fudge's priorites, at this moment, were damage control. Pretty much getting Sirius back as quickly as possible and before he harms anyone. If Harry was murdered by Sirius Black, it would be front page news, Voldemort's 'right-hand' man killing 'the boy who lived'(!), and what a nightmare for him. Yet, protecting Harry's happiness is more important. Sure. And speaking of escaped convicts...Cho points out in OotP the absense of dementers in Hogsmeade after the disappearence of quite a number of frightening convicts. Now, she brings up a good point. (and it should be noted, that not only does JKR not have dementers stationed anywhere in Hogsmeade, but she has a character *point it out*). Of course, the dementers could have just been there in PoA because there was a good chance Sirius Black was lurking around that area, but you think with the number of DEs gone missing, there would be dementers *every where*. So either the dementers are getting apathetic (which is partially true), or no one ordered them to leave Azkaban to look for the escapees. Fudge is most likely the one in charge of this, and ESE! Fudge may not care about catching the missing DEs. He's probably rather happy they're out. (on the other hand, with Sirius, the dementers gave him the chance to kill Harry Potter, by OotP, he knows that Harry can do the patronus charm, therefore its not worth the trouble). >> Fudge clearly holds some of the same beliefs as the death eaters, regarding muggles and half-bloods. Is he a death eater, or does he at least simpathize with them? Or is he just so power-hungry that he will side with whichever side e thinks is most strong? << I think he sympathizes with their goal. I don't really see him as a DE -- I can't really see him working directly for Voldemort --, but I think he has his own aims which are very similar to what the DE's want. More cooperation than domination. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 09:42:21 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 09:42:21 -0000 Subject: Percy... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107011 Alla wrote : > I only hope that he will not consciously betray anybody to Voldie and > that hypothetical somebody will not die. Del replies : I don't think Percy would *consciously* betray anyone to LV. Mainly because that would require that he changes his allegiance yet once more, but in a major way this time, by deciding to follow LV. I'm not saying it's impossible, I just think it's highly improbable IMO. However, I can easily picture a "Ludo Bagman" Percy, being fooled into thinking that he's helping the good side, when in fact he's helping LV. However, there's the question of what kind of information could Percy actually give LV that would be of any worth ? He knows a few people that follow DD, like his family, but then this is *public* knowledge. He most probably doesn't know anything about the Order, he probably doesn't know the identity of those who *must* remain anonymous, like Tonks and Kingsley, he doesn't know where the Headquarters of the Order are. So *what* exactly could he tell LV that LV couldn't learn from anyone else ? Unles of course Percy becomes a member of the Order first. But in that case, I hope he would be kept a) extremely busy working as a mole inside the Ministry so that he doesn't have time to listen to the false promises of anyone else, and b) under control (both by checking discreetly on him once in a while, but mostly by giving him what he wants : recognition). Del From patientx3 at aol.com Tue Jul 20 10:09:30 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:09:30 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 23: Christmas On The Closed Ward In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20040719193509.0178b078@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107012 >>>> 2) Why does Harry ask advice of no one, especially Sirius, whom he trusts and has gone to before? <<<< HunterGreen previously: >>> He did go to Sirius, he just didn't find it very helpful. He went to Sirius before they visited Arthur in the hospital, and (essentially), Sirius just told him to not worry about it, and if it was something to worry about Dumbledore would have told him. I think that Sirius underestimates how much Harry would obsess about this (and oddly enough HE doesn't go to Harry after Harry shuts himself off from everyone). I think that Sirius cares about Harry a lot, but doesn't know him very well. <<< Lissa replied: >> I REALLY like that point that Sirius doesn't know Harry. Not really. They've had very limited contact, until OotP, and by OotP Sirius was losing himself. I also think Sirius isn't always sure how to communicate with Harry. Molly is somewhat right- he does think of Harry as a hybrid of James and Harry. << HunterGreen: I don't know about that. I think he sees Harry more as "James' Son", than a James/Harry hybrid. As in, he feels a responsibility to Harry and a kinship with Harry based on how well he knew James and Lily and the fact that he his Harry's godfather. He wants to be Harry's friend and help him out, but unfortunately he doesn't know Harry very well. I've always liked Sirius because he stands alone as the only adult to actually reach out to Harry beyond the times they happen to see each other. Molly sends him things for Christmas, and is always happy to have him come visit, but she doesn't specifically send him letters (rather, she mentions him in letters to Ron, or Ron himself writes letters to him mentioning his family's willingness to have Harry stay with them). Dumbledore acts as some sort of father or grandfather figure, but he doesn't really seek Harry out that often to talk to him. He sort of happens upon him from time to time in his headmaster role, or speaks to him when something really important has happened (like in the end of each book). Harry forms a good relationship with Lupin, but Lupin sort of disappears after that, and doesn't make an effort to keep in touch with Harry (nor does he contact Harry *before* he's his teacher, despite how close him and James were). Harry is not the type who feels comfortable seeking people out himself. He sort of fell into his friendship with Ron and Hermione, and all the adults I mentioned would probably be willing to help Harry with his problems, he just doesn't feel comfortable going to them, even though they all know him better than Sirius. But Sirius is quite different, in the fact that HE made the effort to keep in touch with Harry, and said *specifically* to call on him with any problems. Not only that, its noted in the beginning of GoF, that Sirius has already sent Harry two letters since the summer began (added with the letter at the end of PoA, that's 3 letters), and we don't know if Harry has written a response to any of them. Since you mentioned Molly...her attitude toward Sirius at the beginning of OotP really got under my skin. I normally like her, in many ways she reminds me of my own mother, but here its almost like she's jealous of Sirius. She certainly doesn't respect his authority when it comes to Harry (and he does have authority, James and Lily appointed him Harry's guardian, as far as Harry's *parents* are concerned, Sirius is allowed to make decisions on Harry's behalf), and then she jumps to accusing him of equating Harry with James, and says the exteremly mean-spirited "the thing is, it's been rather difficult for you to look after him while you've been locked UP in Azkaban, hasn't it?", which seemed pointlessly hurtful. >>Interestingly, he seems to relate better to Harry in OotP when Lupin is around.<< And that may be because Lupin does know Harry. The two of them spent considerably more time together, and Lupin has a better understanding of personality than Sirius. From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Tue Jul 20 10:12:16 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 20 Jul 2004 10:12:16 -0000 Subject: One more Mystery (was Re:Cold case files - The Riddle Case) Message-ID: <20040720101216.25479.qmail@webmail7.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107013 To solve the Murder Mystery, I was reading GoF Chapter 1 and came across this: "If?" Whispered the second voice. "If? If you follow the plan, Wormtail, the Ministry need never know that anyone else has died. You will do it quietly and without fuss; I only wish that I could do it myself, but in my present condition...Come, Wormtail, one more death and our path to Harry Potter is clear. I am not asking you to do it alone. By that time, my faithful servant will have rejoined us --" If I remember right, nobody is killed till LV?s plan starts going haywire. He doesn?t kill Crouch Sr, but puts him under Imperius. Also, he doesn?t kill Moody. Then whose murder was the plan about? *I wish I could do it myself* means it must be someone pretty important. Am I missing anything or is there one unaccounted and unheard murder? How can we miss somebody who is killed if LV wanted to kill him himself? People, please help me here. Trying to clear one mystery I have been entangled in another. Amey, who is still trying to solve Riddle Murders [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 20 10:38:51 2004 From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:38:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] One more Mystery (was Re:Cold case files - The Riddle Case) In-Reply-To: <20040720101216.25479.qmail@webmail7.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: <20040720103851.49551.qmail@web25305.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107014 Amey Chinchorkar wrote: To solve the Murder Mystery, I was reading GoF Chapter 1 and came across this: "If?" Whispered the second voice. "If? If you follow the plan, Wormtail, the Ministry need never know that anyone else has died. You will do it quietly and without fuss; I only wish that I could do it myself, but in my present condition...Come, Wormtail, one more death and our path to Harry Potter is clear. I am not asking you to do it alone. By that time, my faithful servant will have rejoined us --" If I remember right, nobody is killed till LV?s plan starts going haywire. He doesn?t kill Crouch Sr, but puts him under Imperius. Also, he doesn?t kill Moody. Then whose murder was the plan about? *I wish I could do it myself* means it must be someone pretty important. Am I missing anything or is there one unaccounted and unheard murder? How can we miss somebody who is killed if LV wanted to kill him himself? People, please help me here. Trying to clear one mystery I have been entangled in another. Amey, who is still trying to solve Riddle Murders Now Udderpd Both my UK pb editions one is a first and the other is an adult edition seven, use the word 'disappeared' and not died. I believe that this difference was discussed in depth some time ago. My books seem to make sense, what version are you reading? I have no doubt that someone will fill us in on the previous discussion. TTFN Udder PenDragon [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From marnyhelfrich at comcast.net Tue Jul 20 10:40:27 2004 From: marnyhelfrich at comcast.net (Marny Helfrich) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 06:40:27 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Something wrong with this Fudge References: Message-ID: <00e901c46e45$f9314110$8e2f8c45@mynewputer> No: HPFGUIDX 107015 Huntergreen wrote: > Its also interesting to note that Fudge *doesn't* contact Harry when > Sirius escapes, nor does he encourage anyone (like the Weasley's for > example) to go collect Harry from the Dursely's and keep an eye on > him. Yes, Dumbledore doesn't do that either, and it doesn't occur to > Arthur or Molly to go get Harry, but Fudge is in charge of all this. > Marny says: I agree that Fudge is at the very least a power-hungry, cowardly twit and could easily be ESE!Fudge, but I don't think this example necessarily demonstrates that. One of the major premises of the books is that Harry is magically protected while he is living with his aunt and uncle, right? (true, the protection is from Voldemort, but at that point they believe that Sirius is in league with Voldemort, right? (if it's not ESE!Fudge).So it's not til he leaves (and takes all his stuff, somewhat suggesting that he might not come back), that he is in danger. When Fudge and Harry connect, Fudge makes a big point of saying that the Dursley's have agreed to take Harry back the next summer. Marny From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Jul 20 11:35:19 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:35:19 -0000 Subject: In defense of considering pureblood preference racism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107016 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sofdog_2000" wrote: > > > SOF: I couldn't disagree more with this assessment. The > Pureblood/Muggleborn conflict is clearly racism, not a caste > system. If it were a caste system, both groups would be aware > that they were partcipating in it and know there places. Kneasy: Better hit the biology and social anthropology books: Race: ...a genetically or morphologically distinct variety of plant or animal. Caste: an hereditary class of socially equal persons....usually following similar occupations and distinguished from other castes in the hierarchy by its relative degree of purity or pollution. Dig into past posts and there are lots of speculations about the genetics of wizards and the possibility of a 'magic gene'. I think that all agree that it must be a recessive of some kind, probably not a single gene with a simple yes/no expression. Since Muggles can produce wizard children and wizards can produce non-magical offspring they cannot be considered as separate races. It would be the Real World equivalent of considering children with genetically determined differences as being of a different race. Aptitudes for music (think Mozart - composing aged 6) or mathematics (think Gauss - self taught by the age of 3) are well documented. And sometimes in runs in families. Magical aptitude could be a similar mechanism. In the definition of 'caste' note that "purity and pollution" are the determining factors - doesn't that mirror the WW exactly? It's the purity of blood that young Malfoy siezes on, and the insult refers to 'polluted' blood. > > There is clearly a caste system within the magical world. > House-elves were created specifically to draw water and hew > wood. The laws that restrict them are strikingly similar to the > laws governing American slaves (ie. no possession of wands). > Kneasy: Bad treatment of other beings *can* be considered as a form of racism - they are genetically/morphologically distinct. The House Elves are a puzzling bunch - JKR seems to have taken the old 'Brownie' myth and given it a twist. For those who are not familiar with Brownies, they're Elves that *love* helping out around the home - voluntarily. If offered payment (in cash or in kind), they vanish, never to return. The real puzzle is why beings so obviously magical allow themselves to be abused by such as Malfoy. They don't need wands; they're able to cast powerful spells without them. And Dobby could do so even when still in servitude to the Malfoys ( Platform 9.75, the rogue bludger, apparating around Hogwarts). Many suspect that we have much to learn about House Elves. But House Elves apart, it's characters like Hagrid that are the target of contempt from pureblooods and crazies like Umbridge. And it's expressed by dear Dolly as a hatred of half-breeds - 'pollution' again. > The attack on the Roberts family was the equivalent of a lynching > in the American segregation era. They were picked on because > they were isolated, outnumbered and unable to defend themselves. > Kneasy: I wasn't referring to this episode but the earlier one when Roberts was taking money for the camping site. "Obliviate!" - keep him stupid, use him for our own purposes - and nobody thinks it wrong. > The Dursleys definitely had a choice with Harry. If they rejected > him - gave him over to the state to be fostered - Harry would have > been defenseless maybe, but it was an option available to them. > It is the only thing that speaks well of the Dursleys, that > they kept Harry for his own sake. > Kneasy: I don't agree. I don't think that they were given a choice. In PS/SS it's made clear that the Dursleys hated and feared the Potters. DD dumps Harry on the doorstep and there's no indication of a fall-back plan if the Dursleys don't co-operate. True, we don't know what was in the letter, but from the way they treated Harry it's clear that he was a most unwelcome 'guest' who is provided with the bare minimum of everything. > It seems to me that the core reason Wizards work so hard to > stay under the Muggle radar is to keep themselves from being hunted > down and killed off. Mass hysteria leads to ugly things. Ron's comment > that Wizards needed to intermarry in order to keep from dying out > indicates that they are a significant minority of the human population. > If sure if provoked, Muggles would find away to wipe them out. Kneasy: True at one time, but does is still apply? Again in PS/SS Hagrid says that the main reason the Ministry tries to keep wizards hidden is because "..everybody'd be wanting magic solutions to their problems. Nah, we're best left alone." Fear doesn't seem to be a significant factor these days. From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Tue Jul 20 11:53:23 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 07:53:23 -0400 Subject: New JKR FAQ Poll Message-ID: <000a01c46e50$29f4bac0$b4c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 107017 1. Is Percy Weasley working undercover for any secret organization/boss? Short answer: No. Long Answer. Although I don't think we know everything about Percy's situation or his personal ambition, and I'm not sure where that will lead him in the next two books, I believe the question is pointing to a *conscious* choice to be working *undercover* and I do not think that is the case. He may well get caught up into something he, in the end, will wish he hadn't, but I don't believe he is making a concious choice to be, perhaps, a double agent. 2. Where has Peter Pettigrew (Wormtail) been since the end of 'Goblet of Fire'? He's going to be sworn in, this morning, as Canada's Minister of Foreign Affairs, I think. (Pierre Pettigrew) ;) Serious answer: he's been in hiding at the DE/LV HQ as there are still lots of people in the wizarding world who would be more than surprised to see a long dead wizard walking around living and breathing. Also, by this point, I would imagine that LV has figured out that PP has a life debt to HP and would be keeping them far apart to avoid any chance of PP repaying his debt. LV knows PP is not a particularly powerful or useful wizard. LV himself says "You returned to me, not out of loyalty, but out of fear of your old friends," and "Worthless and traitorous as you are," 3. What did Dumbledore's Howler to Aunt Petunia mean? ('Remember my last'?) Personally, I think the Howler meant, "Remember my last, Petunia." Simple. Whether he meant the letter he left with Harry on the doorstep, or another *last* conversation, I don't know. DD answered this himself in OotP. 'I thought,' said Dumbledore, inclining his head slightly, 'that she might need reminding of the pact she had sealed by taking you. I suspected the Dementor attack might have awoken her to the dangers of having you as a surrogate son.' IF it is any more than that, and IF it is important to the rest of the story, JKR isn't going to post it, loud and clear, on the website. I don't remember what the three previous poll questions were, though in her answer about Mark Evans she stated that she put in the 'if any' phrase as a clue. Silly me, I presumed she was posting the questions in the same manner they were asked. Obviously, in this case at least, the question was more along the lines of "what is the significance of Mark Evans" and she put in the 'if any' as a clue that she meant, by wording the question that way, that there is no significance. DuffyPoo [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jul 20 11:59:38 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:59:38 -0000 Subject: Who would love Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107018 Wanderingstar wrote: > snip In particular, I thought about animals that like or prefer the cold, are at least partially black, white (pale skin), and might have some yellow coloring (teeth), that can be found in Europe, that might be able to fly or at least have a wingspan (bat references), and that have a NEED for some kind of grease or oil for their well- being. Here is what I found: > > SWANS: Cygnus Coscoroba > Yes, wouldn't this be odd ... or maybe not so odd, considering the > Hans Christian Andersen tale? snip > "All Mute Swans in Britain are considered the property of the British monarch" I just thought that was funny, sorry. > >> History and Mythology > In Greek mythology, the constellation represents several different > legendary swans. Zeus disguised himself as a swan to rape Leda, who > gave birth to the Gemini, Helen of Troy, and Clytemnestra. Potioncat: Father of twins??????????? Canon proof! Snape the Ugly Duckling! And the rape fits with his DE history. Belonging to the Monarch along with the tale of the Swan Princess...he's also the HBP!!! Congratultions, Newby, you've solved two puzzles! ;-) Welcome. I can see you'll fit right in! Let me warn you, it'll be the toss away line or the not serious line that will generate the most responses on this list! Ask me or Carol! When I came up with my horrible theory, I was reading Snape's Worst Memory. I realized that the Mauraders were all described in ways that fit their animal form. Then I realized Snape was too. He moved spider like. He sat in the deepest shadow. Sometimes he is speaks in a waspish voice. He sounds buggy.(Buggish?) In one scene (not sure of book) Harry imagines a beetle with Snape's face as he grounds it into powder. At the time we were all wondering why Lupin's Boggart turns into a cockroach (Who thinks cockroaches are funny?) Then right after the Worst Memory Snape throws cockroaches. So thats sort of where the cockroach idea came from. Not too long after that I read an interview whre JKR said she likes writing Snape but she wouldn't want to have dinner with him and I almost choked! Anyway, I much prefer Severus the Swan Prince Potioncat From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Tue Jul 20 12:06:09 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 08:06:09 -0400 Subject: To solve the Murder Mystery, I was reading GoF Chapter 1 and came across this: Message-ID: <000e01c46e51$f2131640$b4c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 107019 "If?" Whispered the second voice. "If? If you follow the plan, Wormtail, the Ministry need never know that anyone else has died. You will do it quietly and without fuss; I only wish that I could do it myself, but in my present condition...Come, Wormtail, one more death and our path to Harry Potter is clear. I am not asking you to do it alone. By that time, my faithful servant will have rejoined us --" If I remember right, nobody is killed till LV's plan starts going haywire. He doesn't kill Crouch Sr, but puts him under Imperius. Also, he doesn't kill Moody. Then whose murder was the plan about? *I wish I could do it myself* means it must be someone pretty important. Am I missing anything or is there one unaccounted and unheard murder? How can we miss somebody who is killed if LV wanted to kill him himself? People, please help me here. Trying to clear one mystery I have been entangled in another. Amey, who is still trying to solve Riddle Murders Now Udderpd "Both my UK pb editions one is a first and the other is an adult edition seven, use the word 'disappeared' and not died. I believe that this difference was discussed in depth some time ago. My books seem to make sense, what version are you reading? I have no doubt that someone will fill us in on the previous discussion. TTFN Udder PenDragon" DuffyPoo These different versions interest me. I wish I could afford to buy them all just to see the discrepancies. My versions (Hardback and paperback Canadian version) both say 'disappeared.' Mine also uses 'obstacle removed' intead of 'death'. Interesting. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jul 20 13:06:33 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:06:33 -0000 Subject: Another chronology for... Re: "I'm not proud of it" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107022 Nora wrote: >snipping a very good section> So at this point we have a Snape who is expecting DD to go along with > him, and who is not happy to hear that DD is having his doubts; the > much discussed 'My memory is as good as ever...' quote comes here, > with a number of possible meanings: I gave YOU a second chance is > one, another is DD stating obliquely that whatever happened back then > wasn't actually attempted murder and Snape knows it--damnifiknow. > > THIS is where Snape starts to go behind DD's back to do something he > knows his boss wouldn't approve of, and tries to get Black taken care > of before DD can 'cause problems'. This is the explanation for the > quote in the hallway with Fudge--I don't have it in front of me, so > anyone who responds can plug it in, please. The escape happens, > Snape is furious, and DD lets him fume because he knows that Snape > was up to something wrong; it's worked out later, given the end of > GoF and the reaction there. > Potioncat: This was the section that when I re-read it yesterday, began to bother me. Snape is going behind DD's back. DD's right hand man? (As some of us have thought) I would like to think he was just keeping Fudge busy, but it really doesn't look that way. Now, perhaps DD never thought Black was guilty. Perhaps he did, but he doesn't now. And certainly he doesn't have time to speak to Snape about it. I just answered my next question: Why isn't DD more supportive of Snape? Snape afterall, once again is made to look like a fool. How much longer will Snape want DD's trust? Potioncat From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 20 13:07:12 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:07:12 -0000 Subject: OT: Re: Cousins by marriage ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107023 "Steve" wrote: > This whole cousins (first, second, third; one removed, twice removed) > thing is very confusing. Try looking at the following: http://stellar-one.com/genealogy/cousins.htm http://genealogy.about.com/library/nrelationshipchart.htm Hope these help. -- Phil From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Jul 20 13:25:00 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:25:00 -0000 Subject: New JKR FAQ Poll: Which is significant? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107025 Valky: > > Of course there is the decided possibility that they are, actually, *all* unimportant questions with strictly non-spoiler answers. That, I have considered, and yet, I still have an inkling that JKR doesn't play that way. One of them, surely, is a valuable clue, but which one I am hesitant to guess, for now. > > If someone can remember fully what were the other two questions > that JKR offered on the Mark Evans Poll, which one of those do we think *now* that we might have missed our chance on? I think that might help us to wrangle a Really Canon Brilliant answer out of the great one this time. LOL Alla: > Hey, Valky! Oh, I like the idea that one of the FAO questions does > hide important clue much better than the idea than none of the > answers will be important anyway. > > If I remember correctly two other questions asked whether Snape is > really Perseus Evans and whether Sirius is realy dead (sob..) > I think you know which one of them I would love to hide a clue. :o) Jen: Maybe your right, Valky! I figured since JKR was picking the questions they wouldn't hold important clues, but... Well, JKR said in an interview right after OOTP that she 'killed' a character in it, so it's pretty clear Sirius is dead (but seems certain to still be part of the plot). And we all know what happened to Mark Evans. Could that mean *gasp* there's something to the Perseus Evans = Severus Snape anagram?!? As for the new poll, I voted for "Remember my last" because I'm just very curious what that refers to, and I think the answer holds a clue to why Petunia agreed to take Harry in and/or how much contact she's had with the WW. The Percy one, even if he is a spy, doesn't mean much for the overall plot. Personally, I think Wormtail has gone AWOL from Voldemort, but we'll find out in Book 6 anyway, when JKR promised he'll return. So unless there's a really surprising answer to one of these questions.....I'm sticking to what's behind Door #3! Jen From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jul 20 13:31:59 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:31:59 -0000 Subject: New JKR FAQ Poll: Which is significant? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107026 > Alla: > > Hey, Valky! Oh, I like the idea that one of the FAO questions does > > hide important clue much better than the idea than none of the > > answers will be important anyway. > > > > If I remember correctly two other questions asked whether Snape is > > really Perseus Evans and whether Sirius is realy dead (sob..) > > I think you know which one of them I would love to hide a clue. :o) > Potioncat: I thought the question was "Is Severus Snape Lily's half brother?" Of course, that would go with Perseus, wouldn't it? You know, trying to read JKR's mind about the unanswered questions will generate more posts than Mark Evans did!! From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 13:55:36 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:55:36 -0000 Subject: In defense of considering pureblood preference racism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107027 SOF wrote : > The Pureblood/Muggleborn conflict is clearly racism, not a caste > system. If it were a caste system, both groups would be aware that > they were partcipating in it and know there places. Del replies : And it would be *exactly* this way if the purebloods had it their way. The Muggleborn kids would be grouped together at Hogwarts (if taken in at all), and they would be taught from Day 1 that they are inferior to the purebloods, and that they'd better know their place. The purebloods would *automatically* get all the positions of power, while the Muggleborns would be confined to the subservient roles. The belief of the purebloods might be compared to racism, but the *system* they would establish if they could would look very much like a caste system indeed : purebloods > halfbloods > Muggleborns > Muggles SOF wrote : > The fact that Rowling hasn't presented any color-based racism > doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. It's hard to believe that those > who grow up in the Muggle world would entirely abandon their > upbringing in favor of a life of magic. Prejudices acquired in a > Muggle life must seep into the Magical world. Many people maintain > prejudices without making overt expressions. Del replies : It makes sense, but it's not presented in the canon. We *never* hear of any kid, Muggleborn or not, having any problem with the skin colour of another kid. The closest to a racial insult we get is Pansy comparing Angelina's hairstyle to an octopus, but that could be just a girl-type of insult (girls *are* quite often self-conscious regarding their hair, even if they don't show it : just think of Hermione in the PoA movie "Is *that* what my hair looks like from behind !?" - even though my husband says she was not referring to her hair at all :-) Other than that, we never see any kind of colour-based racism. On the other hand, we do see the wizard prejudice seeping into Hermione, when she doesn't mind Mr Roberts being Obliviated over and over again. I'm sure she knows that multiple Obliviate spells are not good, and yet she doesn't protest or worry for him. SOF wrote : > There is clearly a caste system within the magical world. > House-elves were created specifically to draw water and hew wood. > The laws that restrict them are strikingly similar to the laws > governing American slaves (ie. no possession of wands). Del replies : First, I don't remember reading that the House-Elves were *created*. They are magical beings that exist, just like Centaurs or Merpeople. They weren't created. Second, they are not humans. They are of a different species. So the control wizards exert on them cannot be compared to a caste system, which is supposed to take place between members of the *same* race. This control is a perfect example of pure and simple racism : you are of a different race, that I decide to consider inferior, so I can make you my slave. Hum, now that I think of it, I'm wondering if things are not both more complicated and more simple than that. If I'm not mistaken, genetically speaking, for two species to be entirely unrelated, they must be unable to produce a fertile offspring. We know Giants and Wizards can have kids, and I'd love to know if Hagrid is fertile. But for example we know *for sure* that Veelas and wizards can have fertile offspring, since Fleur is 1/4 Veela, which would mean that wizards and Veelas are two different breeds of the same species (like great danes and chihuahuas are two different breeds of the same species : dog) Now what about the House-Elves, the Goblins, the Centaurs ? Could they all be different breeds of the Human Species, not different species altogether ? That would explain Umbridge's insult of "half-breed". But that would also mean that the wizards are exploiting their "cousins", like as though great danes decided to exploit chihuahuas : a mix of classic racism and caste system ! And of course, the logical question now would be : are wizards and Muggles 2 different breeds of the same species ? Like Siamese and Main Coon cats ? Del From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 10:19:36 2004 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:19:36 -0000 Subject: famous Last words In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107028 > Phil: > > By combining the last word from the five books plus adding what > > JKR said was the last word in the seventh book you get: > > summer world last did wake -- scar > > And adding Harry's as the last word of Half Blood Prince, you > > get: Summer world last did wake Harry's scar. > > > > Could this foretell that Harry's scar will wake up during the > > Summer of the last book? Phil, I don't see how /Summer world last did wake Harry's scar/ is even a sentence! (Summer world last doesn't work... At Summer, the world at last did wake to see Harry's scar or something like that...) Still, the last book could end with Harry's scar... As JKR will give a summary of what happened to those who survive - dunno - last sentence could be, in case Harry lives and Voldemort is gone: ..and all that was left of Lord Voldemort, was Harry's scar. Or: Nothing was left to remind them of Lord Voldemort, not even Harry's scar. My imagination even sees a pub named Harry's Scar - a pub where the survivors gather... (let's say Ron owns it - he started it on inheritance from Harry (and I don't see why Harry wouldn't leave a Will saying his property will go to Ron and Hermione after he's gone)) Everyone left and Ronald Weasley closed Harry's Scar. Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 11:05:10 2004 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:05:10 -0000 Subject: Mothers and Fathers / power LV knows not /new pet? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107029 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Theresa" wrote: > On the flip side - JKR was quite close to her mother so she may very > well make it Lily's love with no spell or magic simply protected him. > I just think there is more to it than that. > Well, remember Lily's last words (as Harry heard them in presence of a Dementor) - Not Harry, not Harry, take me instead! Voldemort said something like: "Very well then" and killed Lily. Pact was made - and these pacts are ancient magic! It is a magically binding contract: you cannot break it, and an attempt will result in horrible consequences. (As Voldemort found out in the hard way). James was telling Lily and Harry to run while he would 'hold him back'. No less loving, no less brave - and yet, this was a strategy (one that failed at that), not ancient magic... And, as Dumbledore tells Harry, Petunia (Lily's sister, thus her blood) sealed another pact by taking Harry in (a pact that was based on Lily's sacrifice). --------- Also - the prophecy: A power the Dark Lord knows not. Ancient magic/love: Lily's sacrificial, *instead* - pact. Works also in Philosopher's stone. Also, Dumbledore's enwoked magic keeping Harry safe where Lily's blood (relatives) dwell (as long as Petunia keeps Harry, that is). I wonder, could it be that Dudley's magic was bound by this pact? (the sacrifice required: Dudley's magic? or Petunia's?) Phoenix: Tears to heal; song to encourage/terrify; carry heavy loads and sorting hat with Gryffindor Sword; create a Priori Incantantum Effect... Love/friendship: Voldemort could not force Harry to attack Dumbledore. ------- Is Harry going to have a new pet, and if he is, what happens to Hedwig? Hedwig DID get hurt when someone (Dumbridge?) intercepted her (for the letter Harry was getting from Sirius). Could it be that in the next book, Hedwig dies? Shortest stay ever... OK, Moody told Harry to write every three days - what if Hedwig is killed/abducted while carrying the first letter... Harry's stay _would_ become short! (You know, a phoenix would make a nice pet for Harry...) Finwitch From srae1971 at bellsouth.net Tue Jul 20 11:17:53 2004 From: srae1971 at bellsouth.net (Shannon) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 07:17:53 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: New JKR FAQ Poll: Which is significant? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.1.20040720071355.00c7c6b0@mail.bellsouth.net> No: HPFGUIDX 107030 >Rowen says: > >As I see it, there are three factors that should go into deciding >which FAQ to vote for: >1) Will JKR even give us an answer? She's notorious for "Sorry, >can't tell you" answers. Though it being in a FAQ means she's more >likely to give us something. Surely she wouldn't say, "Here, I'm giving you three questiosn to choose from, and whichever gets the most votes will get an answer" and then say she can't answer it. I am sure she'll answer, but if the question is an important one, her answer might be tricky. I voted for #3, because that Howler was worded too oddly to just be a reminder of her agreement to take Harry in and protect him. He could have just said, "remember your promise." And would that have had such an impact on her? I think there's definitely more to know there. Shannon [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Tue Jul 20 11:51:24 2004 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:51:24 -0000 Subject: Snape's Patronus Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107031 In one of JKR's recent interviews she said that she couldn't say what Snape's patronus was as this would give too much away. A patronus (no matter what form it takes) is only a means of warding off Dementors, and therefore is hardly going to be a central plot point. Therefore, the only conclusion that one can take from this comment is that Snape is an animagi. This would also fit in with Snape's psyche, as I'm sure he would want to prove that he was the equal of James/Sirius in performing such advanced magic. This then leads us to what animal Snape would become. My conclusion would be an owl - specifically the barn owl. Barn owls have black eyes, a hooked nose, produce oil to waterproof their feathers, prefer the dark (hunt at night, live in dark places), are very stealthy and predatory. These are all traits that are shared with Professor Severus Snape. ChrisDJ From lszydlowski at hotmail.com Tue Jul 20 12:26:39 2004 From: lszydlowski at hotmail.com (szydlowskil) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:26:39 -0000 Subject: Something wrong with this Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107032 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meltowne" wrote: > I've been thinking about our friend from the ministry, Cornelius > Fudge. I can't quite decide what to make of him, but I know there's something odd that JKR has been hinting at all along. > What do we know about Fudge? >>>Cutting to the chase: >> What if Fudge was with Wormtail & LV at Godrics Hollow? Fudge gives Wormtail advice to "disappear for a while" and to fake his own death. YES!!! Fudge is Evil!!! Cornnelius Fudge is my best candidate for He-Who-Said-(words to the effect)"Stand back you silly girl"-That-Night-at-Godric's-Hollow. I think he wanted to make a name for himself in the wizarding world by making peace with Voldemort; to do so, he handed them the Potters. I think Wormtail 'ratted' to Fudge, not Voldemort, and Fudge is actually the one who revealed the Potter's location. I don't think he thought Voldemort would kill the family, maybe Voldemort told him he just wanted to talk to the Potters and Fudge wanted so badly to look like a peacemaker to the wizarding world that he bought into it. He was probably horrified at what happened, but then had to take Sirius out to maintain the public's perception of events. Maybe he was after Peter too, and that's partially why Peter disappeared. He had to have Sirius sent to Azkaban without a trial and he was so anxious to have the Kiss administered at Hogwarts to keep the truth from being told. Perhaps he thinks Sirius told Harry too much and that's why he wasn't fussy if the Dementors Kissed him as well. The ever-paranoid Lynette From quigonginger at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 14:04:39 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:04:39 -0000 Subject: I'm not proud of it In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107033 Sylvia wrote: > Ginger, you are so sweet to equate called a teacher an old silly with > what those boys did to Snape. I assume you were a very little girl - > is first grade like our reception? i.e. about 5 or 6? > I think one of the reasons that some of us take a graver view of the > behaviour of James and Sirius is that we have experienced not so much > bullying of ourselves (which is often possible to forgive (though not > forget) and move on from, but bullying of our children, which is an > entirely different matter. (snip) Ginger responds: Oh, dear. Sylvia, I must apologize for not making myself clear. It is one of my worst flaws that I assume for no reason at all that others know what I am thinking. My intention in including the scene from first grade (age 6) was not to compare it to the actions of the boys in the scene Harry saw. I thought of that scene because it stands out in my mind as a time when I had done something really bad (in my mind at that time) and there was no way I could undo it. I have had years to think it over. At the time, I was sick to my stomach, felt the blood drain out of my face, and started crying. Looking back now, I *remember* how I felt, but I don't feel that way. I don't feel physically ill, I just remember the shame. The comparison between me and Sirius was not the gravity of what was done, but the amount of time we have had to think on it. Sirius spent 12 years with his worst memories. Somewhere in there he had to have asked himself "where did I go wrong" and the dementor-induced atmosphere undoubtedly gave him much to think on. My point was that the *initial* shock was well over for Sirius, but was fresh for Harry. That is why Harry is so much more upset than Sirius. Time does that. It allows us remember more objectively, less emotionally. I hope that clears it up. Sorry for not explaining myself well. Ginger, who has done worse things, but none for which I was that shocked with myself. From drliss at comcast.net Tue Jul 20 12:19:39 2004 From: drliss at comcast.net (drliss at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:19:39 +0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 23: Christmas On The Closed Ward Message-ID: <072020041219.3671.40FD0DDB000518C900000E5722007589429C9C07049D0B@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 107034 Huntergreen: Harry is not the type who feels comfortable seeking people out himself. He sort of fell into his friendship with Ron and Hermione, and all the adults I mentioned would probably be willing to help Harry with his problems, he just doesn't feel comfortable going to them, even though they all know him better than Sirius. But Sirius is quite different, in the fact that HE made the effort to keep in touch with Harry, and said *specifically* to call on him with any problems. Not only that, its noted in the beginning of GoF, that Sirius has already sent Harry two letters since the summer began (added with the letter at the end of PoA, that's 3 letters), and we don't know if Harry has written a response to any of them. Lissa: You make a good point about Sirius being the only one to really reach out to Harry. (BTW,I do think Harry's written responses to those letters, just because of the casual way he wrote to Sirius when his scar was hurting.) I do still think Sirius thinks of Harry as a James hybrid. Not consistantly, and not like "this IS James." I think it's more subtle than that. Every time Harry doesn't behave like Sirius thinks James would have behaved, that's when Sirius gets disappointed. (An interesting question would be would James really react like Sirius percieves? Or is Sirius just believing what he wants to believe?) I think his perception changes with other circumstances, too. I mentioned that he seems to be more cognizant of who Harry REALLY is when Lupin's around. I don't think it's because Lupin knows Harry better, but because I think Lupin's presence tends to stabilize Sirius. When we actually meet Sirius in PoA, it's really hard to make a lot of assessments about his character because that scene is so short timewise, and it's so emotionally charged. There's definitely some insanity, but he's just escaped from Azkaban. When we see him in GoF, he's probably the most together that he is through the series. I would definitely attribute this to his freedom. In GoF, I'd say he thinks of Harry as Harry, and we aren't seeing that James/Harry dichotomy. In OotP though, Sirius wobbles on his treatment of Harry. He goes from encouraging him to do things that are truly good for him to trying to lure him into thinks that would get him in trouble. ("The risk is what would have made it fun for James.") I think Sirius's sanity starts to slip when he's virtually imprisoned in his family home. Molly and Arthur can't help him. They don't know him well enough, and they're too detached. The rest of the order is even more so. Lupin, however, gives Sirius some freedom, because he IS a reminder of the glory days, and more than that, I think Lupin needs Sirius and Sirius knows it- Sirius is the only one that Lupin is emotionally close to, and after being so closed off for 12 years, I think Lupin clings as hard to Sirius as Sirius does to him. And I think Sirius desperately needs to feel like he's needed, and doing something important. When Lupin is around, he does feel like his life has some meaning to somebody, and that's a stabilizing influence on him. When Lupin is around also tends to been when Sirius councils caution, and keeping low. When Lupin is not around, that's when Sirius wants Harry to be more reckless and risk-taking, like his father. Anyway, I don't think it's something that Sirius is conscious of. But just by his disappointment in some of Harry's reactions/actions, I'd say that yes, he does subconsciously expect Harry to be James. Huntergreen: Since you mentioned Molly...her attitude toward Sirius at the beginning of OotP really got under my skin. I normally like her, in many ways she reminds me of my own mother, but here its almost like she's jealous of Sirius. She certainly doesn't respect his authority when it comes to Harry (and he does have authority, James and Lily appointed him Harry's guardian, as far as Harry's *parents* are concerned, Sirius is allowed to make decisions on Harry's behalf), and then she jumps to accusing him of equating Harry with James, and says the exteremly mean-spirited "the thing is, it's been rather difficult for you to look after him while you've been locked UP in Azkaban, hasn't it?", which seemed pointlessly hurtful. Lissa: Molly and Sirius do have an interesting relationship, don't they? The jealousy is interesting. I hadn't thought of that, but it makes sense. I had interpreted it as Molly knowing in her head that Sirius is innocent, but not being able to overcome the fact that for 12 years, she believed he was a mass murderer. That's got to be a hard thing to overcome, especially since she didn't appear to know Sirius before he was convicted. Molly tries to overcome prejudices. She knows they're not right. But I think it's not always that easy for her, and in this case I can understand why! Especially since she's thinking of her kids. I wonder how she really copes with Lupin, deep down. It's kind of interesting, because I think Bill is in some ways what Sirius might have been if he hadn't been sent to Azkaban. Good looking, highly intelligent, adventerous, etc. He even dresses the way Sirius might have dressed as a teenager (if they'd lived in the same decade anyway). Hmmm. Guess I should do some work ;) Lissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 20 14:08:50 2004 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 15:08:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Harry and Hagrid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040720140850.69692.qmail@web25102.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107035 Hi Iris, I've been studying your post for some time. I was going to reply to the group, but now I find I can't really add much. I think you are totally right in what you say, but we're not supposed to send "I agree" posts. What you have said has not only added great value to my post but has deepened it with good insight and perception. All I can do now is thank you profoundly for your valuable post. I have a special folder called, "wonderful posts", and I will file it there. Recently I sent you another email in which I asked a couple of questions. If you could find time to answer them I'd be grateful. Warm regards, Hans Your theory doesn't sound crazy to me. First, because I think it's logical if Harry's story ends `at Hagrid's': Hagrid is the one who introduced `literally' Harry in the series, when he brought him to Privet Drive. To us readers, it started `with Hagrid', so It would be normal if it happened to finish `with Hagrid', or at least, with Hagrid's function. Second, though he seems to have a subaltern job, Hagrid is in a way the true master of Hogwarts, because, as you pointed it, he's the Keeper of Keys and Grounds. Dumbledore, far from considering Hagrid as a subordinate, treats him as an equal. And that idea appears since the very first chapter of the series, when he says to Mac Gonagall: `I would trust Hagrid with my life'. Dumbledore is the most powerful wizard of the time and he declares that he would be ready to use Hagrid's protection. There couldn't be a better evidence of his consideration towards his Keeper of Keys and Grounds. Of course, we can object that Hagrid is not as wise and powerful as Dumbledore. Many of his interventions in the story are amusing. He doesn't seem very serious. We mustn't forget what hides behind that humble appearance: Rubeus Hagrid, Keeper of the Keys and Grounds at Hogwarts, as he introduces himself in the first book (PS/SS, UK edition p 40). Sounds like a nobility title, doesn't it? Hagrid is the one who owns the secret to enter the magical world. He is the one who makes the new students enter the castle. He also owns the keys of Hogwarts. Better: he keeps them. Just like a baron keeps a fief for his king. Even if he doesn't seem to realize himself, even if the others consider him as a servant, a simple gamekeeper, Hagrid is in a sort of way the lord of Hogwarts, his protector. One last thing, but it may be consistent if it's true that JKR writes referring to Alchemy: `Hagrid's first name is `Rubeus'. If we believe what John Granger wrote in his article `The alchemist them: Harry Potter and Alchemy' (sorry, I don't remember when it was published, but there's a message in the HPfGU archives that gives the link to reach it), `Rubeus' comes from `Rubedo', the Red Work, the third and most important phase of the Great Work, that leads to the achievement of the Stone. JKR doesn't use that first name currently, and she doesn't use either the title of `Keeper of the Keys and Grounds' to explain what Hagrid is really. Simply because the Red Work is the most secret of all. As for Hagrid's `servant' condition, it could deal with the true nature of the Stone: it's not an achievement in itself; it's only a servant which sole aim is to help the world to improve. Another evidence of Hagrid's connection to the Rubedo phase? Well, he's the one who brings to Stone to Hogwarts. He declares in the Leaky Cauldron (in PS/SS) that he has come to Diagon Alley because he is `on Hogwarts business'. He has come to help the Stone and Harry find their way to Hogwarts. In that single little sentence, apparently so anodyne, JKR gives us an amazing summarise of what a true Alchemist is: he's the servant of the Stone, and the protector of the one who starts his initiatory journey, the Apprentice. And it's `Hogwarts business', because the school is the alchemical cell where the Stone and the Apprentice have to meet. Talking about Harry, and about the first book of the series: I'm quite sure we have in this little book all that we need to understand the whole story. JKR gives us the keys, but we don't always know she does. Just the way she lets us believe that Hagrid is just a `servant' at Hogwarts (note that when she presents him as a servant, she uses Draco Malfoy, one of the characters who are supposed to be `wrong' because they `support' the Dark Side). Now, what do we read in PS/SS, chapter 9? We read Harry's first flying lesson, the lesson that will give him the possibility to become a Seeker. A Seeker, that's precisely what an Apprentice, what an Alchemist is. But before he becomes a Seeker, Harry is afraid of being expelled because he disobeyed Madam Hooch's orders. While she makes him follow Mac Gonagall, sure that he will get expelled, JKR writes these lines: "He thought of Hagrid, expelled but allowed to stay as a gamekeeper. Perhaps he could be Hagrid's assistant." Maybe those two lines are more than just a narrative detail. Maybe they tell us what Harry really has to become: a servant. The exact contrary of Voldemort. And that way, he will succeed where Voldemort has failed, mislead as he was with his illusory dreams of power. In Alchemy, he who works and serves is always more powerful than he who rules and gives orders. Amicalement, and hoping I'm not too confusing, Iris ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 13:21:53 2004 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 06:21:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Percy... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040720132153.42208.qmail@web50110.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107036 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich wrote: >> Do people really see Percy as ambitious? I don't. He doesn't >> crave power - he craves recognition. > I have to disagree, slightly. Not about Percy being a prat, but > that he is not ambitious. I used to have all the sections marked > throughout the books to show all the foreshadowing of Percy having > the issues he had in OOtP, but I have since removed them. However, > some references I remember:..... > ...All of these cases show, in my mind, that Percy is definitely > ambitous. He is probably ALSO looking for attention and > recognition that he gets from no one other than his Mother. None of those examples proves that Percy is ambitious for POWER - the force that would give him some degree of control or influence over society or the lives of people or organizations. He's ambitious to prove himself so that people in positions of authority will clap him on the shoulder and tell him what a fine young man he is. I repeat, Percy doesn't know what real power is, wouldn't recognize it if it landed on him from the clear blue sky and isn't striving to attain it or use it. It's his desire for approbation and praise that makes him vulnerable to manipulation by others, as we saw in OOTP when he was completely taken in by Umbridge. There's no guile to Percy, no deep secret plotting or scheming. He's all on the surface, and what you see is what you get. That Ron thinks he'd throw the family to the Dementors to get ahead shows us that Ron doesn't really understand what power's all about either. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 14:12:05 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:12:05 -0000 Subject: New JKR FAQ Poll: Which is significant? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107037 Valky wrote : > Of course there is the decided possibility that they are, actually, > *all* unimportant questions with strictly non-spoiler answers. That, > I have considered, and yet, I still have an inkling that JKR doesn't > play that way. One of them, surely, is a valuable clue, but which > one I am hesitant to guess, for now. Del replies : I've been thinking along those lines right from the beginning :-) I mean, let's take a look at the 3 questions : is Percy acting undercover, what's Peter been doing, and remember my last what ? Which of the 3 do we *not* care about ? Right, number 2. Who *cares* about what Wormtail's been doing !? He's done us all a favour by not showing up, and he's such a creep anyway. But maybe we should care. Maybe he's been doing something incredibly important while LV was keeping the Order busy with the Prophecy. Many of us have often wondered why LV didn't go and get the Prophecy himself if it was so easy. Maybe the answer is that he didn't *want* to. Maybe he was *pointedly* keeping everyone's attention focused on the DoM, while Wormtail was preparing something infinitely more dangerous. Just a possibility, of course. But I can imagine JKR's face if we discover in HBP that Peter's whereabouts were indeed incredibly important, and she gave us a chance to learn about that beforehand, but we threw it away :-) Del From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 14:17:30 2004 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 07:17:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] famous Last words In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.0.20040719224259.02c81290@mail.toltbbs.com> Message-ID: <20040720141730.11377.qmail@web53509.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107038 Phil Vlasak wrote: famous Last words By combining the last word from the five books plus adding what JKR said was the last word in the seventh book you get: summer world last did wake -- scar And adding Harry's as the last word of Half Blood Prince, you get: Summer world last did wake Harry's scar. Could this foretell that Harry's scar will wake up during the Summer of the last book? Phil ponders. When I read this, buzzing around in the back of my head (like a dratted mosquito) was the thread from a few months ago (don't remember who) that made the comment that this had better not be a "dream" scene like in the American tv shows "Dallas" and "Married with Children"!! moonmyyst --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lill_baby_peach at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 06:23:44 2004 From: lill_baby_peach at yahoo.com (Ask and I may tell) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 06:23:44 -0000 Subject: Why Is Snape Alive??? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107039 Hello everyone, New gal here. I am sure there are some passages that might help me with my question but I have yet to find it. Ok here we go...... I know that Hogwarts is a well protected place. It has been said many of times that Harry cannot be harmed while at Hogwarts. And it has been said that anyone who has turned their backs on LV has been or will be punished. Why is Snape still alive? Why is Malfoy still buddy buddy with Snape? .... Ok so Hogwarts is protected, is everyone who is inside of Hogwarts protected? Does Snape ever leave the school or just stay to be protected? Why are Snape an L. Malfoy still friends? This to me does not make sense. In OotP Malfoy seems to be one of LV most loyal followers. Why haven't they gone after Snape for turning his back on the Dark Lord? Could Snape be the one spying on DD for the Dark Lord. It's late and maybe I am not making sense but some of these questions I have searched and searched and haven't found any answers. Thanks for listening to me babble...Have a Great Night!! xoxo, Peach From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 14:20:47 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:20:47 -0000 Subject: Percy... In-Reply-To: <20040720132153.42208.qmail@web50110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107040 Magda Grantwich wrote : > Percy doesn't know what real power is, wouldn't recognize > it if it landed on him from the clear blue sky and isn't striving to > attain it or use it. Del replies: I quite agree. Remember in CoS when Draco disrespects him ? Percy is all flustered, because he cannot understand that Draco is not impressed by Percy the Prefect. He tells him to respect his authority, but he doesn't think of *using* that authority. What he wants is respect, not power. But because he thinks respect is a consequence of social power, he goes after power. Del From n.crins at planet.nl Tue Jul 20 07:37:27 2004 From: n.crins at planet.nl (niekycrins) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 07:37:27 -0000 Subject: Books 6 & 7 - tragedy or triumph? In-Reply-To: <20040720072958.32859.qmail@web25107.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107041 > Hans Andr?a wrote: > > 7. I said they'd be decapitated - I didn't say they'd be executed. > Perhaps the decapitation will happen some other way. Perhaps by > magic, perhaps by some accident, I just don't know. > > Nieky said: I know a way of decapitation, namely Fred & George's headless hats. Even Hermione was impressed by the magic. Nieky > ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 08:55:24 2004 From: doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com (doddiemoemoe) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 08:55:24 -0000 Subject: New JKR FAQ Poll: Which is significant? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107042 > Stefanie ponders: > Looking at JKR's new FAQ poll on her website, and looking as what > canon has to offer us, which option do you think would help us the > most? I haven't given it too much thought, yet, but as of right now, > I'm absolutely stumped as to which I'm going to vote for... > > //1) Is Percy working undercover for any secret organization/boss?// >>snip<<<<< My only response to this particular question right now is that he is an arrogant berk....meaning that if he doesn't get a grip soon, we are simply watching what happens when people get scared. I hope HE realizes soon that it is not about "running and seeking the "safety of power"; actually for Percy I'd have to say the safety of PERCEIVED power, also known as the "Pettigrew Route"...I tend to think he will not follow the "Pettigrew route" as he had enough skills and personal attributes to make prefect AND head boy. One thing JKR beats us over our heads with thoughout the books is that folks have a great deal many "Natural Consequences" when they become too full of themselves--muggle, human, or otherwise. Also Stefanie ponders: > //2) Where has Peter Pettigrew (Wormtail) been since the end > of 'Goblet of Fire'?// Most likely lording over those "less loyal" to Voldemort. Crushing hands/fingers in a hand shake, putting the slap on Bella....trying to cast spells while holding the wand in his more "powerful" new hand. All, the while, he is steadily putting as much geographical disgtance between himself and Voldemort. I still have the feeling that Peter felt he paid his life dept to Harry by not informing Voldemort that Harry had been bitten by that spider in the maze--more than Dumbledore's gleam which we assume means Voldemort is once again mortal....the spider venom in Harrys blood would me that he is also poisoned..Not only this, but he is poisoned by the "nemisis"(sider) of the Basilisk (serpent). It would be too good for Peter let Harry defeat Voldemort then claim that Harry had a life debt to himself(wormtail)...Until he bides most of his time, Pettigrew is probably busy cracking walnuts and crab claws for the MOST LOYAL DE's, Bellatrix in particular. (a silver handy houseelf)... Stefanie ponders: > //3) What did Dumbledore's Howler to Aunt Petunia mean? ('Remember > my last'). Well since DD doesn't strike me as the "make-a-threat" type of individual, I suppose that it would mean that Harry would keep the Dursely family safe as long as he resided there. Due to Lily's sacrifice we know that Voldemort cannot harm Harry on privet drive...so, not only would Volde be hard pressed to show up there (given that Harry is always watched)...but there is also probably something in Harry that protects them from harm as well. We gather that Petunia knew about dementors in light of "what they were"...if Harry stated he saved Dudley, then perhaps a distant memory resurfaced. I do however believe that Petunia may have met DD at Lily and James' wedding. JMHO, of course, like most I'm wrong. I'm just trying to make sense of it all. From meltowne at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 14:28:01 2004 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:28:01 -0000 Subject: TR "possessed" by Voldemort? (was Re: Dumbledore knows) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107043 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snow15145" wrote: "snow" previously wrote: COS chap. The Heir of Slytherin pg. 313: "Voldemort," said Riddle softly, "is my past, present, and future, Harry Potter " This statement, IMO, leads me to believe that Voldemort is a separate entity from Riddle. "Voldemort" said Riddle " They are as one but not one in the same. This entity, Voldemort, Dark Lord, Dark Wizard, Grindlewald, may be Salizar Slytherin who has possessed many over his life span of the undead. SS pg. 298 "He is still out there somewhere, perhaps looking for another body to share not being truly alive, he cannot be killed " To vanquish just the shell of the person who has been possessed by this entity will not vanquish the entity itself. Quirrell was killed and yet the beast within lived on until it reappeared in another's form. SS chap. The Man with Two Faces pg. 293 "See what I have become? the face said. "Mere shadow and vapor I have form only when I can share another's body but there have always been those willing to let me into their hearts and minds " Those? Must have happened many times before... David: Again in GoF as he's 'reborn', he has no problem pointing out to Harry the grave of his father. He doesn't speak in the third person, as if the Tom Riddle life was someone else's. He speaks as if he's deliberately thumbing his nose at his past. Snow: My only rebuttal to this would be that Voldemort was reborn with Harry's blood. Harry has a bit of Tom Riddle in him, which reconnected with the bit of Tom Riddle remaining in Voldemort. Voldemort appears to be astonished by his own sentiments at the graveyard. The Tom Riddle part of Voldemort has been awakened by the blood connection from Harry. Mel (me): I suspect the TMR was in fact taken over by Voldemort's spirit, whoever that may be. It started out that he was "one of many" but he got further than any other in producting an immortal body - not just the soul. Thus he was the heir of Slytherin because he took Slytherine's work a step further. TMR picked the name Lord Voldemort to instill fear - was there a previous Voldemort, or does he build the reputation himself? Was Lord Riddle too ordinary a name to instill fear? The Dark Lord is now both part Slytherin, and part TMR - and both parts want to survive (and can do so together for now). This would also fit with the idea of TMR being one of Slytherin's "ancestors" in that it takes people like him to allow a spirit like this to survive. Maybe it's because of TMR being resident that he Dark Lord can be vanquished - if he had simply continued to posess other people, he could go on forever, but maybe TMR's presence somehow makes him more "human." From patientx3 at aol.com Tue Jul 20 15:15:05 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 15:15:05 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 23: Christmas On The Closed Ward In-Reply-To: <072020041219.3671.40FD0DDB000518C900000E5722007589429C9C07049D0B@comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107044 Lissa wrote: >> I do still think Sirius thinks of Harry as a James hybrid. Not consistantly, and not like "this IS James." I think it's more subtle than that. Every time Harry doesn't behave like Sirius thinks James would have behaved, that's when Sirius gets disappointed. [snip] I would definitely attribute this to his freedom. In GoF, I'd say he thinks of Harry as Harry, and we aren't seeing that James/Harry dichotomy. In OotP though, Sirius wobbles on his treatment of Harry. He goes from encouraging him to do things that are truly good for him to trying to lure him into thinks that would get him in trouble. ("The risk is what would have made it fun for James.") I think Sirius's sanity starts to slip when he's virtually imprisoned in his family home. << HunterGreen: I think too much is made of that single incident. Other than the first floo powder scene, does Sirius ever appear to confuse Harry with James? Personally, I think that that comment had more to do with that particular moment than with anything Sirius ever really felt or thought. Meaning that he was quite frustrated with his situation, and he thought that at the very least he would be able to sneak out to visit Harry. I bet it was a bit annoying to be rebuffed by a 15-year- old, which is probably what prompted that statement, whether or not its even true. Oddly enough, as much as Sirius *hates* being trapped in the house, we don't hear of him leaving except for those two incidents, despite how he little stock he *appears* to put into Dumbledore's orders. I think that he (obviously) wanted to leave, but had to work himself into it. There had to be a reason. From ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 15:16:59 2004 From: ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com (ohneill_2001) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 15:16:59 -0000 Subject: In defense of considering pureblood preference racism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107045 Del wrote: > First, I don't remember reading that the House-Elves were *created*. > They are magical beings that exist, just like Centaurs or Merpeople. > They weren't created. Now Cory: Do we actually *know* this to be true? I ask because I am actually curious about this myself, and I have considered the possibility that House Elves may have been created by wizards. What got me thinking along those lines was Dumbledore's remark to Harry in OoP: "[Kreacher] was bound by the enchantments of his kind, which is to say that he could not disobey a direct order from his master, Sirius." U.S. edition, p. 831. So if House Elves are "enchanted," then who enchanted them, and how did they get that way? One possibility is that they were created that way. If anybody knows of any canon that supports or refutes this, I would love to hear of it. I suspect we will learn a lot more about the House Elves in books 6 & 7. --Cory From patientx3 at aol.com Tue Jul 20 15:29:10 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 15:29:10 -0000 Subject: Something wrong with this Fudge In-Reply-To: <00e901c46e45$f9314110$8e2f8c45@mynewputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107046 Huntergreen previously: > Its also interesting to note that Fudge *doesn't* contact Harry when > Sirius escapes, nor does he encourage anyone (like the Weasley's for > example) to go collect Harry from the Dursely's and keep an eye on > him. Yes, Dumbledore doesn't do that either, and it doesn't occur to > Arthur or Molly to go get Harry, but Fudge is in charge of all this. Marny replied: >>[snip] One of the major premises of the books is that Harry is magically protected while he is living with his aunt and uncle, right? (true, the protection is from Voldemort, but at that point they believe that Sirius is in league with Voldemort, right? (if it's not ESE!Fudge).So it's not til he leaves (and takes all his stuff, somewhat suggesting that he might not come back), that he is in danger. << HunterGreen: I suppose it *could* be that, but it never seemed enough for me. I don't think I've ever been able to get past the fact that Sirius could have killed Harry if he wanted to (right before the knight bus scene). If he just didn't tell Harry because of the protection, then why doesn't he tell Harry when he meets up with him? Harry doesn't take the threat seriously (so it really doesn't do any good when he does find out), but if he had, he wouldn't have been sneaking off to Hogsmeade. I just don't understand how this decision was made to *not* alert the one person that Sirius is after that Sirius escaped. Harry just sees him on the muggle news, he has no reason to worry or to be careful at all. I don't know the specifics of the protection, but it appears to work less when Harry is out of the house. And its summertime, why would Harry be in the house 24hours a day? Sirius could have been waiting outside for him. They don't know that Sirius is a dog, yes, but they don't know a lot of things about him either. They think that he knows a great amount of dark magic, and that he's not afraid of doing things in public, and they think he's deranged and the main thing on his mind is to kill Harry Potter. They *also* know that he was James' best friend (and so would have an easier time tracking down where Harry is than the average man on the street), and he's very intelligent. Sirius was a *big* threat. And at this point Harry, although living under a magical protection, is living with people who 1-are muggles and couldn't protect themselves or him and 2-don't really care if he lives or dies. Quite an odd moment to be worried about secrecy and protecting Harry's innocence. From anita_hillin at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 15:38:43 2004 From: anita_hillin at yahoo.com (AnitaKH) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 08:38:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR's narrative strategy (Was: Whose point of view ?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040720153843.93744.qmail@web42103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107047 carol wrote:It's important to distinguish among different > types of narrative strategies because they affect our interaction with and understanding of the characters But a limited omniscient character can sometimes use a character other than the protagonist (e.g. Vernon Dursley in SS/PS chapter one) or report events without revealing the thoughts of any characters adi responded: ...I have some problem with this 'limited' omniscient view. How come JKR'S view is limited? [snip] And yes, I'm not master in English but it strikes me as odd that omniscience can ever be limited. It is either there or not. akh jumps in: "Limited omniscient" is an accepted term to describe a third-person narrator who has access to the thoughts and actions of more than one character, but not all. Is it an oxymoron? You betcha! However, no one said academia has no sense of humor. ;-) Let's look at it thus: JK Rowling (JKR) is the Creator (Goddess?); Limited Omniscient (LO)is the narrator/story-teller. JKR knows all, sees all, and chooses how much LO knows. LO knows more than Harry or any one character, but not as much as JKR. (We could argue that LO doesn't know any more than Dumbledore, but that's another issue altogether.) carol: Equally interesting is the choice of characters whose minds the narrator does not and perhaps cannot enter: Dumbledore, Snape, the DADA teacher of the moment, Sirius Black, Petunia Dursley, and many others. adi: The fact doesn't mean that the narrator hasn't entered these minds doesn't mean that she can't. And if she really can't, there must be some reason as to why she can enter only certain minds and not others. akh: If the narrator (LO) can't, it's because JKR/Goddess has made that decision. If it serves her story, JKR could decide to let LO reveal any one of the characters' complete inner workings. Conversely, she could shut off Harry Potter at some crucial moment, although that's pretty unlikely. If this is still confusing, blame it on the lack of caffeine! akh, who ought to be exercising, but this is so much more fun! ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Tue Jul 20 16:06:38 2004 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:06:38 -0000 Subject: New JKR FAQ Poll: Which is significant? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107048 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "delwynmarch" wrote: ...snip... But I can imagine JKR's face if we > discover in HBP that Peter's whereabouts were indeed incredibly > important, and she gave us a chance to learn about that beforehand, > but we threw it away :-) > > Del Inge replies: Personally I have decided not to take part in JKR's polls - and to not know the results and her eventual answers. I'd much rather wait and learn all those things in the last 2 books... Given the answers to questions we burn to ask takes away too much of the excitement of waiting. I was truely disappointed to learn from JKR (chat-interview) that Snape is (probably) not a vampire and would much rather have the possibility still open to discussion and find out through the next books that he isn't. Same thing with Mark Evans. Truely disappointed to *know* that he is not important. Wish I didn't know beforehand since this information takes away some of the fun in speculating. There will surely be other things JKR may want to let us in on through her website - which would give information to what's going to happen in the next books (or will not happen) ... nope - don't want to know :-) If possible I'd lock her up and have her stay that way till the books were all finished and out - not letting her reveal a word of what to (or not to) expect - and then, after book 7 would want for her to answer every question there might be to solve loose ends.... Inge From n2fgc at arrl.net Tue Jul 20 16:10:21 2004 From: n2fgc at arrl.net (Mrs.) Lee Storm (God Is The Healing Force) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:10:21 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Cold case files - The Riddle Case In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107049 From: mayeaux45 [mailto:mayeaux45 at yahoo.com] | Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 23:00 | > Meri now: | > What if young Tom revealed himself to his long-lost father | > and grandparents before killing them? What if there was a sort of | > confrontation, where Tom enters the house (or is let in by the | > Riddles on false pretenses), says something along the lines of, | > "Hey, Dad, I'm your long lost son, where the hell have you been for | > the last seventeen years?" and then proceeds to have a little fun | > with his wand and his hated Muggle family. | | O.K. some questions of mine seemed to have been answered with this | particular post. It's been a while since I've read CoS...did JKR | mention in the book that Tom's dad left his mother after he found | out she was a witch. Because that would explain it! I didn't come | to the conclusion by reading that chapter in GoF that the 3 Riddles | were Tom's father and his grandparents.... | P.S. Maybe I should read CoS to find some more hidden | clues...apparently I've missed something! :( [Lee]: Young Tom's mother had been abandoned by the father when he found out she was a witch. She also died after giving birth to Tom...lived long enough to name him; that's how he ended up in the orphanage. Therefore, the Riddles in question at the beginning of GOF would have been Young Tom!Voldy's dad and grandparents. Hope that helps. :-) Cheers, Lee :-) From persephone_kore at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 16:13:51 2004 From: persephone_kore at yahoo.com (persephone_kore) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:13:51 -0000 Subject: In defense of considering pureblood preference racism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107050 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ohneill_2001" wrote: > Now Cory: > > Do we actually *know* this to be true? I ask because I am actually > curious about this myself, and I have considered the possibility > that House Elves may have been created by wizards. What got me > thinking along those lines was Dumbledore's remark to Harry in OoP: > > "[Kreacher] was bound by the enchantments of his kind, which is to > say that he could not disobey a direct order from his master, > Sirius." U.S. edition, p. 831. > > So if House Elves are "enchanted," then who enchanted them, and how > did they get that way? One possibility is that they were created > that way. > > If anybody knows of any canon that supports or refutes this, I would > love to hear of it. I suspect we will learn a lot more about the > House Elves in books 6 & 7. > > --Cory Now PK: We do have a quote in which JKR said that she had based the house-elves on brownies, but thought it would be fun to have them consider being given clothes a disgrace. I don't suppose this makes it *impossible* that they were created by wizards, but I'm inclined to doubt they are. Actually, their being connected to brownies leads me to think that the enchantments on house-elves may have been made to put the wizards in control of the relationship rather than to induce it in the first place. Brownies would, in most of the stories I've read, arrive as they pleased and work as they pleased, and be very helpful unless you insulted them by one of various means: being slovenly yourself, being stingy and not leaving out milk, or offering them other payment. Though the elves in "The Elves and the Shoemaker" didn't seem insulted, they just decided it was time to go. Now, obviously there's no guarantee *that's* the case, either, but I don't think it's contradicted. PK From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Tue Jul 20 16:24:32 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 20 Jul 2004 16:24:32 -0000 Subject: Fudge: Evil or what??? Message-ID: <20040720162432.24950.qmail@webmail9.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107051 - The ever-paranoid Lynette: - YES!!! Fudge is Evil!!! - Cornnelius Fudge is my best candidate for He-Who-Said-(words to the - effect)"Stand back you silly girl"-That-Night-at-Godric's-Hollow. I - think he wanted to make a name for himself in the wizarding world by - making peace with Voldemort; to do so, he handed them the Potters. I - think Wormtail 'ratted' to Fudge, not Voldemort, and Fudge is - actually the one who revealed the Potter's location. I don't think he - thought Voldemort would kill the family, maybe Voldemort told him he - just wanted to talk to the Potters and Fudge wanted so badly to look - like a peacemaker to the wizarding world that he bought into it. He - was probably horrified at what happened, but then had to take Sirius - out to maintain the public's perception of events. Maybe he was after - Peter too, and that's partially why Peter disappeared. He had to have - Sirius sent to Azkaban without a trial and he was so anxious to have - the Kiss administered at Hogwarts to keep the truth from being told. - Perhaps he thinks Sirius told Harry too much and that's why he wasn't - fussy if the Dementors Kissed him as well. Amey: Agreed Fudge doesn?t come as an innocent person, but I don?t think he was the person who gave information about Potters to LV. For one thing, Fudge was a junior member of Ministry then, he wasn?t the Minister. It was Crouch Sr. who sent Sirius to Azkaban without trial. ("Oh I know Crouch all right," he said quietly. "He was the one who gave the order for me to be sent to Azkaban - without a trial."-GoF) . But I agree there might be something in the fact that *I was one of the first on the scene after Black murdered all those people*, as one of the first can easily mean the first, or even before that. Whether he knew anything about Sirius and Peter?s exchange or not is an open question. But "Oh yes, they'll have to go," said Fudge, running his fingers distractedly through his hair. "Never dreamed they'd attempt to administer the Kiss on an innocent boy...? means he was genuinely concerned about this part (or is he just acting???). As we know there will be a different minister of magic in HBP, I think the reason for Fudge's resignation (if there is any) or for his going out is going to be important. I don't see him resigning because he failed to see LV had come back. That is almost as probable as Snape saying sorry to Neville. Amey, who has to run home now from office so will try to complete it tomorrow [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 20 16:49:29 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:49:29 -0000 Subject: The Virtues of Hufflepuff House and Cedric Diggory (Was: Snape and . . .cour In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107052 "delwynmarch" wrote: > Well, sure, a badger is definitely less "noble" than the other 3. > But the next thing that strikes me while considering that list is > that the first 3 are *dangerous* animals that pretty much spend > their lives hunting down preys to eat (all 3 of them are exclusively > carnivorous if I'm not mistaken). The badger, on the other hand, > spends its life burrowing, and though it can eat small animals, it's > not its exclusive food. Sorry to burst your bubble but the Eurasian Badger (meles meles) is generally said to be the largest carnivore native to the UK, where this particular story is set (well, actually they're omnivores, but if you saw me eating a steak, you'd wonder about just how that term can be defined :-); they are definitely viewed as "noble" in the best sense of the word. They are usually just under a metre long, weighing around 10kg (although some variations can bulk up to 32kg when necessary). They feed on anything they can grub up and anything they can lay their paws on. In order to do all the digging, they have *extremely* powerful front paws. I would not want to get in the way of an annoyed badger. Why do you think people hunt the poor benighted things with such large numbers of hounds, and so many of the latter are injured/maimed/killed in the process? Sorry to sound rantful, but Badgers are a bit of a favourite here in the UK. Bill Oddie just did a 3-week programme (in which Badgers vied for centre-stage with the glorious Kate Humble, but that's by-the-bye :-) which drew a huge audience, mostly hoping to see live footage of wild Badgers. -- Phil From jlawlor at gmail.com Tue Jul 20 16:35:17 2004 From: jlawlor at gmail.com (James Lawlor) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:35:17 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's Patronus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96773c88040720093558b28598@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107053 ChrisDJ: > In one of JKR's recent interviews she said that she couldn't say what > Snape's patronus was as this would give too much away. A patronus (no > matter what form it takes) is only a means of warding off Dementors, > and therefore is hardly going to be a central plot point. Therefore, > the only conclusion that one can take from this comment is that Snape > is an animagi. James: Or perhaps giving the answer would give away too much or kill the suspense in a particular scene. Perhaps, say, if Snape is surrounded by Dementors and finally manages to ward them off with an unexpected Patronus - or if he gets Kissed. As for that leading to Snape being an animagus, I don't think we necessarily have enough evidence to say that one's animagus form is going to be identical to their Patronus. - James Lawlor jlawlor at gmail.com From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 16:41:47 2004 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 09:41:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fudge: Evil or what??? In-Reply-To: <20040720162432.24950.qmail@webmail9.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: <20040720164147.5766.qmail@web50105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107054 > The ever-paranoid Lynette: > YES!!! Fudge is Evil!!! No, Fudge isn't evil. One of the threads running through the series is the way that good people can actually help evil by refusing to see what's right in front of them (preferring what's easy to what's right, as Dumbledore puts it elsewhere) and putting obstacles in the way of those who recognize evil. Fudge is quite representative of wizarding society as a whole when it comes to confronting Voldemort. It's quite clear that the MoM was completely outgunned in Vold War I and that the wizarding community quite welcomed Barty Crouch Sr as a strong man who could handle the problem effectively. But once Voldemort was vanquished they just threw a big party, toasted "the boy who lived" and went back to life as usual as quickly as they could. Fudge represents that longing to ignore reality and just keep on keeping on. It would be quite deflating, characterization-wise, if EVERYONE who disagreed with Dumbledore turned out to be a DE or definitely evil. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jlawlor at gmail.com Tue Jul 20 16:22:56 2004 From: jlawlor at gmail.com (James Lawlor) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:22:56 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Cold case files - The Riddle Case In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96773c88040720092256ceb356@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107055 Mayeaux45: > I've read GoF a > few times and I'm confused about one part of the Riddle > murders...the book said 3 Riddles. The Mother, Father, and...Tom? > But Tom Marvolo Riddle is Lord Voldemort, so.......I'm confused! > Who are the 3 Riddles? P.S. This was probably obvious and I just > missed it, so please be gentle if that is the case. If not, some > serious critical thinking is an order! James: This confused me at first too. By 3 Riddles I also thought Tom and his parents at first (which does have interesting possibilities regarding the Tom->Voldemort transformation) but if you think about it for a minute, it can't be. Since Tom's mother is dead, his father abandoned both of them, and the Riddles were "older", meaning it was Voldemort's father and grandparents that got killed. From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jul 20 17:27:25 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 17:27:25 -0000 Subject: Snape's Patronus In-Reply-To: <96773c88040720093558b28598@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107056 > ChrisDJ: snipping > Therefore, > > the only conclusion that one can take from this comment is that Snape > > is an animagi. > James: snip > > As for that leading to Snape being an animagus, I don't think we > necessarily have enough evidence to say that one's animagus form is > going to be identical to their Patronus. > Potioncat: I read upthread to Chris' main post. Several threads are running similar ideas. We've gone from cockroaches to swans to owls. I like this! At one time I thought (like Chris) that Snape may have learned to be an animagus to compete with the Marauders. But Snape doesn't learn about Serius being an animagus until GoF. He certainly didn't recognise the Dog. So I don't think we have any canon for his being one. We do have a lot of bug-like descriptions of him. (Bat- like too.) So I don't know where that leaves us. As far as the Animagus and Patronus forms being the same. I doubt it. The Animagus form seems to be determined by what kind of person the wizard is. The Patronus form seems to be determined by what sort of Protective-figure (Father/Patron) the wizard has.(or seeks?) Potioncat From manawydan at ntlworld.com Tue Jul 20 18:02:54 2004 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:02:54 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] New JKR FAQ Poll: Which is significant? References: <1090294796.94349.91597.m2@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002001c46e83$d05acfc0$704b6d51@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 107057 Becki wrote: >//3) What did Dumbledore's Howler to Aunt Petunia mean? ('Remember my last'?)// > >Becki here again; >I voted for this one myself, however, I do wonder if the questions she puts up for the poll are very important to the final >books? We found that true with the first one about Mark Evans. Time will tell... I worry about this too. The Percy question seems to be a bit of a red herring. If Percy was really working as a secret agent (eg for the Order), the question wouldn't be there to be asked, it would be kept to be revealed in the next book. We _think_ that the Howler question will get us an answer about what was in Dumbledore's letter to Petunia at the start of PS/SS. But what if JKR just says: "He's asking Petunia to remember the letter he wrote her at the beginning of PS/SS (but I can't tell you exactly what was in it until book 7..." I'll be voting for the Peter question, it seems to be the only one that will get us a snippet of useful hard information... Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From garybec101 at comcast.net Tue Jul 20 18:11:03 2004 From: garybec101 at comcast.net (garybec101 at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 18:11:03 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] To solve the Murder Mystery, I was reading GoF Chapter 1 and came across this: Message-ID: <072020041811.16933.40FD6036000A8BFF000042252200735446CECFCE0C0A0D979D0E09@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 107058 Original Message; "If?" Whispered the second voice. "If? If you follow the plan, Wormtail, the Ministry need never know that anyone else has died. You will do it quietly and without fuss; I only wish that I could do it myself, but in my present condition...Come, Wormtail, one more death and our path to Harry Potter is clear. I am not asking you to do it alone. By that time, my faithful servant will have rejoined us --" If I remember right, nobody is killed till LV's plan starts going haywire. He doesn't kill Crouch Sr, but puts him under Imperius. Also, he doesn't kill Moody. Then whose murder was the plan about? *I wish I could do it myself* means it must be someone pretty important. Am I missing anything or is there one unaccounted and unheard murder? How can we miss somebody who is killed if LV wanted to kill him himself? People, please help me here. Trying to clear one mystery I have been entangled in another. Amey, who is still trying to solve Riddle Murders Now Udderpd "Both my UK pb editions one is a first and the other is an adult edition seven, use the word 'disappeared' and not died. I believe that this difference was discussed in depth some time ago. My books seem to make sense, what version are you reading? I have no doubt that someone will fill us in on the previous discussion. TTFN Udder PenDragon" Becki; I am fortunate enough to have both American and UK versions, but I can't find which printing, and they differ in this scene. American GoF, HB, p10; (using the sentence prior too) "...and if we proceed, if I murder-" The following sentence uses "died". UK GF (Paperback) p.15 "...and if we proceed, if I curse-" The following sentence uses "disappeared". I wonder how many different wordings there are to this mystery. Becki Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lethafaraday at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 18:36:07 2004 From: lethafaraday at yahoo.com (Ava) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 18:36:07 -0000 Subject: In defense of considering pureblood preference racism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107059 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sofdog_2000" wrote: > > > > > > SOF: I couldn't disagree more with this assessment. The > > Pureblood/Muggleborn conflict is clearly racism, not a caste > > system. If it were a caste system, both groups would be aware > > that they were partcipating in it and know there places. > > Kneasy: > Better hit the biology and social anthropology books: > > Race: ...a genetically or morphologically distinct variety of plant > or animal. > > Caste: an hereditary class of socially equal persons....usually > following similar occupations and distinguished from other castes > in the hierarchy by its relative degree of purity or pollution. > > Dig into past posts and there are lots of speculations about the > genetics of wizards and the possibility of a 'magic gene'. I think > that all agree that it must be a recessive of some kind, probably > not a single gene with a simple yes/no expression. Since Muggles > can produce wizard children and wizards can produce non-magical > offspring they cannot be considered as separate races. It would be > the Real World equivalent of considering children with genetically > determined differences as being of a different race. Aptitudes > for music (think Mozart - composing aged 6) or mathematics > (think Gauss - self taught by the age of 3) are well documented. > And sometimes in runs in families. Magical aptitude could be a > similar mechanism. > > In the definition of 'caste' note that "purity and pollution" are the > determining factors - doesn't that mirror the WW exactly? It's > the purity of blood that young Malfoy siezes on, and the insult > refers to 'polluted' blood. Ava: What is striking about this particular caste system, however, is that it has an Escher-like quality to it. While within the confines of the WW, the caste system concept is consistent with what you'd expect, the Brahmins at the top and untouchables at the bottom, the interesting thing is that in the broad scope of things, while the WW may see the Muggles, literally, as "untouchables", on the other side of the mirror, the Muggles see the WW as one step below that - nonexistent. > > SOF: There is clearly a caste system within the magical world. > > House-elves were created specifically to draw water and hew > > wood. The laws that restrict them are strikingly similar to the > > laws governing American slaves (ie. no possession of wands). > > > > Kneasy: * * * * > The attack on the Roberts family was the equivalent of a lynching > > in the American segregation era. They were picked on because > > they were isolated, outnumbered and unable to defend themselves. > > > > Kneasy: > I wasn't referring to this episode but the earlier one when Roberts > was taking money for the camping site. "Obliviate!" - keep him > stupid, use him for our own purposes - and nobody thinks it wrong. Ava: Not even the reader, at least initially. It's only upon further reflection that it looks improper, and you eventually recognize that the subsequent attack is merely a louder echo of the first seemingly harmless, utilitarian and socially acceptable act. Very clever, that, and a technique Rowling uses again and again. You become so engrossed in the WW, a Thaumophile, so to speak, that misdeeds against your very own kind become acceptable. ****** > > SOF: It seems to me that the core reason Wizards work so hard to > > stay under the Muggle radar is to keep themselves from being hunted > > down and killed off. Mass hysteria leads to ugly things. Ron's comment > > that Wizards needed to intermarry in order to keep from dying out > > indicates that they are a significant minority of the human population. > > If sure if provoked, Muggles would find away to wipe them out. > > Kneasy: > True at one time, but does is still apply? > Again in PS/SS Hagrid says that the main reason the Ministry tries to > keep wizards hidden is because "..everybody'd be wanting magic > solutions to their problems. Nah, we're best left alone." Fear doesn't > seem to be a significant factor these days. Ava: You mentioned before (and I've already snipped, I'm afraid), the distaste Umbridge and her ilk have for half-breeds like Hagrid. Hagrid himself identifies (understandably) with Wizards more than with giants, though he heads towards reconciliation with his 'other' half, of course, (rather awkwardly, IMO) in OotP. His point in PS/SS that you cited is an interesting one, but a bit ironic, considering Hagrid's limited magical skills (or permitted use? Not clear on that.) What 'magical solutions' has he got to offer, pray tell? But 'we' are better off left alone, because 'we''ve got something the Muggles would envy. It's not the only time Hagrid compares Muggles unfavorably to Wizards. (Wizards, you know, 'our' kind of people.) We should be afraid of Muggles? Bah! Whether or not fear is admitted as a factor, it may well be so. From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Tue Jul 20 19:24:29 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (wickywackywoo2001) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:24:29 -0000 Subject: Cold case files - The Riddle Case In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107060 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mayeaux45" wrote: As far as I know, the servants can leave whenever > they are dismissed. The Riddles could have been murdered that same > night. The cook MUST have found them the following morning, so > therefore, they really weren't up late at all. The Riddles could > have retired to the drawing room and in doing so, dismissed the > servants for the evening. It's during this time that we (the > readers) are confused about what really transpired. That's why I was hoping someone might tell us what a typical upper-class British family schedule might be. If dinner was at 8:00 PM, then we can theorize that the servants would have been around, cleaning up, etc. until maybe 9:15 or so. The Riddles weren't very considerate people, so I don't see them caring much if the servants get to bed early or late, but perhaps they would routinely dismiss them after the dinnertime cleanup instead of having them hanging around waiting for any further tasks. The cook seems to think that the murder took place in the middle of the night, when she and her fellow employees were asleep, but that could just be because she can't imagine anything happening earlier without someone hearing. Maybe the servants were out of the way and in bed by 10:00 PM. It's possible that the family could have been murdered as early as that, but is it likely? If Tom Riddle deliberately plotted to murder them (and that's the accepted explanation, though I favour something a bit more complicated), then why did he come at THAT time? Was it his first good chance? If it was early rather than late, then why would he assume that he could safely kill 3 people in a house with other people present, at an hour when someone could reasonably be awake? If it was *later*, then why were the Riddles still hanging around the drawing room when he arrived? If it was Tom Jr that Frank saw in the afternoon, then why did he hang around for hours until nightfall, and where did he go? The more I think of it, the more I believe that the Riddles were expecting a visitor that night. They didn't expect to be killed, and they might not have known who their visitor really was, but I think that they let Tom into the house, and they arranged the meeting for a time when the servants were out of the way. I'm not absolutely sure that Tom went there fully intending to kill them, either; I think the meeting could have been set up for a different purpose, but it got out of hand and ended up in murder. (Maybe you can tell that I really enjoy Agatha Christie books!) Wanda From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 19:43:21 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:43:21 -0000 Subject: One more Mystery (was Re:Cold case files - The Riddle Case) In-Reply-To: <20040720103851.49551.qmail@web25305.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107061 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, udder_pen_dragon wrote: > > > Amey Chinchorkar wrote: > To solve the Murder Mystery, I was reading GoF Chapter 1 and came across this: > > "If?" Whispered the second voice. "If? If you follow the plan, Wormtail, the Ministry need never know that anyone else has died. You will do it quietly and without fuss; I only wish that I could do it myself, but in my present condition...Come, Wormtail, one more death and our path to Harry Potter is clear. I am not asking you to do it alone. By that time, my faithful servant will have rejoined us --" > > ...edited.... > > Amey, who is still trying to solve Riddle Murders > Now Udderpd > > Both my UK pb editions one is a first and the other is an adult edition seven, use the word 'disappeared' and not died. > > I believe that this difference was discussed in depth some time ago. > > ...edited... > > TTFN Udder PenDragon Asian_lovr2: Indeed there is a difference between the US and UK edition. As well as the change from 'disappeared' to 'died', I believe the UK edition says '...one more curse' whereas the US edition says '...one more death'. I suspect the US editors thought it was referring to Harry, when it was actually referring to Barty Crouch Sr. Hope that helps. Steve/asian_lovr2 From katiebug1233 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 11:48:36 2004 From: katiebug1233 at yahoo.com (Kate) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:48:36 -0000 Subject: Fudge's name any significance? was Re: Something wrong with this Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107062 I like all this discussion about Fudge and I also think that he had a lot to do with Sirius' arrest and being framed. I have always thought about chocolate when I read his name but now I think it alludes to him being a liar. When someone 'fudges' they aren't telling the truth. Has anyone brought this up yet? -katie From katiebug1233 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 12:03:41 2004 From: katiebug1233 at yahoo.com (Kate) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:03:41 -0000 Subject: New JKR FAQ Poll: Which is significant? In-Reply-To: <96773c88040719213024c77543@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107063 I'm sure many will disagree with me but I think that we can rule out all the poll questions as being important. JKR is choosing which questions are being asked and I don't think that she is going to give us a chance at choosing anything that will be revealed as revolutionary. Like Mark Evans, I think that she is choosing questions that are specifically not important. This way she can dismiss the crazy theories and seem to give us some insight without actually giving anything away. -katie From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 20:26:46 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:26:46 -0000 Subject: Why Is Snape Alive??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107064 Peach wrote : > it has been said that anyone who has turned their backs on LV has > been or will be punished. Why is Snape still alive? Why is Malfoy > still buddy buddy with Snape? Del replies : This has been discussed at lengths many times, but I don't think a general conclusion was ever reached. Basically, the main explanation is that Snape managed to convince Malfoy that he's actually spying on DD, that he's never truly changed his allegiance, he's only pretending. For some, that would even be the reason he's being so mean to Harry : because he's got to pretend he hates the boy. That explanation isn't exactly rock-solid, but from what I've gathered, it's the strongest of all. In other words : sorry, Peach, we don't know :-) Oh, and before you ask : we don't know either what Snape's secret mission is :-) Del, who once theorised that Snape and Malfoy are one and the same person ;-) From smiller_92407 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 20:31:32 2004 From: smiller_92407 at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:31:32 -0000 Subject: Books 6 & 7 In-Reply-To: <20040719220026.16529.qmail@web25103.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107065 --- Hans hypothesized that Ron and Hermione would be decapitated. CV (me, posting after a long absence): How about this for a benign way to decapitate somebody - We know of one person in the anthology who WANTS to be decapitated - Kreacher. Kreacher also may have a soft spot for Hermione because of the Christmas gift she gave him. Perhaps Kreacher will either serve as a substitute for one of our trio and do something heroic which results in him getting his wish? It might even be possible for someone to inhabit Kreachers' body during the process - we know that V-mort can do this. ~ Constance Vigilance, still stubbornly flying the Quirrell Lives banner. From slstepek at rocketmail.com Tue Jul 20 13:39:33 2004 From: slstepek at rocketmail.com (slstepek) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:39:33 -0000 Subject: Two weeks worth... DD's curious timing in SS/PS & OOTP... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107066 Vivian (vmonte) responds: > Page 139, U.S. version -- > > "Ah," said Fudge, who looked thoroughly disconcerted. "Dumbledore. > Yes. You--er--got our--er--message that the time and--er--place of > the hearing had been changed, then?" > > "I must have missed it," said Dumbledore cheerfully. "However, due > to a lucky mistake I arrived at the Ministry three hours early, so > no harm done." > > It's obvious that Fudge never sent an owl to Harry or DD. But DD's > comment is curious? I don't think that he is lying; I think DD > actually made some kind of mistake (with time?). I took this as DD's take on sarcasm. Since it is obvious that Fudge never sent the owls, I thought he was just emphasizing his point that he was upset with the change of time and not being notified. He is DD, so he obviously knew something would go awry with HP's trial. Although the time travel idea is very interesting. "slstepek" From kandbmom at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 16:46:22 2004 From: kandbmom at yahoo.com (Lisa) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:46:22 -0000 Subject: famous Last words In-Reply-To: <20040720141730.11377.qmail@web53509.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107067 Phil wrote: > famous Last words By combining the last word from > the five books plus adding what JKR said was the > last word in the seventh book you get: > summer world last did wake -- scar > And adding Harry's as the last word of Half Blood > Prince, you get: Summer world last did wake Harry's > scar. kandbmom: I think that at the end the scar wil be gone. When Harry finally defeats LV the scar which is the curse that tied them will diappear. So, the last sentence will say something like--Harry awakens on the first day of summer to find that he no longer has the scar. kandbmom(just thoughts for someone obsessed with solving the mysteries) From kandbmom at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 16:41:41 2004 From: kandbmom at yahoo.com (Lisa) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:41:41 -0000 Subject: Fudge: Evil or what??? In-Reply-To: <20040720162432.24950.qmail@webmail9.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107068 The ever-paranoid Lynette: > YES!!! Fudge is Evil!!! > Cornnelius Fudge is my best candidate > for He-Who-Said-(words to the effect) > "Stand back you silly girl"-That-Night > -at-Godric's-Hollow. <...snip...> kandbmom: I agree that Fudge is no good. At one point I said this in a post. I also think that LV was not alone at the Potter's however, I think that Rita Skeeter was the one who said "Stand aside, Silly Girl." My reason for this is that she also called Hermione a "Silly Girl". That is not a common thing to say. I also believe that Fudge is the DE that LV is talking about when he says "...One,who I believe has left me forever...and he will be killed,..." It is not that I think Fudge is exactly evil, IMHO I think he is like Percy and just out for himself. kandbmom From griffin782002 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 13:41:30 2004 From: griffin782002 at yahoo.com (sp. sot.) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 06:41:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: In defense of considering pureblood preference racism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040720134130.5107.qmail@web90010.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107069 arrowsmithbt wrote: Kneasy: I wasn't referring to this episode but the earlier one when Roberts was taking money for the camping site. "Obliviate!" - keep him stupid, use him for our own purposes - and nobody thinks it wrong. Griffin782002 now: Well, it does sound cruel, but there's no proof that memory charms can cause permanent damage (if we exclude Lockhart :-)) ). But all these charms was the result of wizards not being careful about their actions, like Bagman who was talking all the time about bludgers or snitches. I don't think that anyone was doing that deliberately. The wizards chose to go into hiding. Kneasy also said True at one time, but does it still apply? Again in PS/SS Hagrid says that the main reason the Ministry tries to keep wizards hidden is because "..everybody'd be wanting magic solutions to their problems. Nah, we're best left alone." Fear doesn't seem to be a significant factor these days. Griffin782002 again: I believe that this is Hagrid's personal opinion. And I believe that first there were the Muggles that turned against the Wizards. But some time ago, this hatred turned the other way round, like the noble members of the Black family, and of course L.V. But I believe that one of the biggest fears of the human mind is the fear of the unknown. Griffin782002 From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jul 20 20:44:43 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:44:43 -0000 Subject: Fudge: Evil or what??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107070 --- > > kandbmom: > > I agree that Fudge is no good. At one point I said this > in a post. I also think that LV was not alone at the Potter's > however, I think that Rita Skeeter was the one who said "Stand aside, > Silly Girl." My reason for this is that she also called Hermione > a "Silly Girl". That is not a common thing to say. snip Potioncat: Didn't Snape also call Hermione "Silly Girl" in SS...or is that movie contamination? From sad1199 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 19:44:47 2004 From: sad1199 at yahoo.com (sad1199) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:44:47 -0000 Subject: Elvin blood? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107071 sad1199 here; I beleive that Lily must have ELVIN blood in her family. Remember (as Charme posted) that in the Mirror of Erised Harry saw a little old man with knobby knees and green eyes? Lily, Harry and Dobby all have green eyes. Remember also how Dumbledore talks of an ancient magic in regards to Lily's love saving Harry? ELVIN magic is stronger and older than wizard magic. Also, this could have something to do with why Petunia is so anti wizard. If she had something in her family line that she was ashamed of and disgusted by; I don't think she would even tell Vernon something of that magnitude. Remember when she talks about Lily getting her letter? I got the impression that her family was worried that one of the girls would not be getting a letter at all. Hey... Maybe, Petunia got her letter but chose not to go? That's a little far-fetched though. Could you refuse a call to Hogwarts? Now, I am making more questions for myself... Have a Happy Love Filled Day sad1199 From omphale at onetel.com Tue Jul 20 20:02:13 2004 From: omphale at onetel.com (saraquel_omphale) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:02:13 -0000 Subject: Nagini venom Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107072 Hi everyone, Does anyone else wonder about Nagini. I presume she is Voldemort's Fawkes, but she only materialised recently as far as we know, whilst LV was in the forests after CoS. The only reference to mythology around her name I can find is about a woman (the Dragon King's daughter) who achieved instant Buddhahood by sacrificing her life. (http://www.khandro.net/mysterious_nagini.htm) There are some questions about Nagini which I find quite interesting: 1) In OotF St Mungo's Hospital (p416 British ed) DD looks at the smoke and says: "In essence divided" and the smoke splits into two snakes. Do we assume that LV possessed Nagini and they both went to MoM, and that's the two snakes. Or is it referring to LV and Harry? 2) The wound which Mr Weasley gets from the venom doesn't want to heal, something in it keeps the wound open. This is the same venom which LV uses in his potion to keep him alive (along with unicorn blood). Could there be some connection here with how LV is vanquished - he bleeds to death maybe (although I do favour my other theory about the room in the DoM see my message 106591) 3) Why have a Nagini? I look forward to all your thoughts .... Saraquel From ariston3344 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 17:47:43 2004 From: ariston3344 at yahoo.com (ariston3344) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 17:47:43 -0000 Subject: Snape's Patronus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107073 potioncat wrote: > As far as the Animagus and Patronus forms being the same. I doubt > it. The Animagus form seems to be determined by what kind of > person the wizard is. The Patronus form seems to be determined by > what sort of Protective-figure (Father/Patron) the wizard has.(or > seeks?) I like this distinction between the animagus form and the Patronus -- it seems to hit the nail on the head. And that makes me think that Snape's Patronus should be a bumblebee (Dumbledore)! :-) Of course, I don't really think it is that, since I don't see how that would give anything away. But Dumbledore certainly is some sort of Protective-figure for Snape (and for a lot of others, of course). Just a funny thought... I'd love to see a giant white bumblebee charging down a host of Dementors, anyway... One other small point -- ChrisDJ wrote: > A patronus (no matter what form it takes) is > only a means of warding off Dementors Actually, in FB, a Patronus is also listed as a way of repelling a Lethifold (in fact, it's described as the only known way of repelling a Lethifold). -ariston From jlawlor at gmail.com Tue Jul 20 17:32:49 2004 From: jlawlor at gmail.com (James Lawlor) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:32:49 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: New JKR FAQ Poll: Which is significant? In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.1.20040720071355.00c7c6b0@mail.bellsouth.net> References: <5.1.1.6.1.20040720071355.00c7c6b0@mail.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <96773c88040720103228e76328@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107074 Shannon: > I voted for #3, because that Howler was worded too oddly to just be a > reminder of her agreement to take Harry in and protect him. He could have > just said, "remember your promise." And would that have had such an impact > on her? I think there's definitely more to know there. You know, when I was first reading OotP, my initial guess was that the Howler was, in fact, from Lily. I figured perhaps she had somehow rigged a charm to send the Howler or left a Howler with instructions to send at the appropriate time. But it suddenly occurs to me that it could be Dumbledore's voice sending the Howler, but Lily's words. Perhaps referring to a conversation Lily and Petunia had before she died. "Remember my last, Petunia" does strike me as something more likely to come from a sister than a mentor-grandfather-type-headmaster-to-sister-and-nephew person. Another thing, now that I think about it. How would Dumbledore know when to send the Howler (regardless of who "wrote" it)? We know the MoM knew about Harry's using the Patronus Charm, and that Dumbledore could have found out via them or one of the members of the Order. But unless there was someone sitting out under the window of Number 4 Privet Drive, they wouldn't know that Harry had just been "throw out". Perhaps Dumbledore has another way of watching Harry and the Dursleys. Or, it could be a fairly simple deduction on Dumbledore's part: "Harry just cast the Patronus Charm in front of Dudley Dursley, meaning they are being attacked by Dementors (Harry would not needlessly use the Patronus Charm). Petunia and Vernon will be furious at Harry's use and mention of magic and at Dudley's state after being attacked by a Dementor - and Dudley will quite possibly blame Harry meaning that Petunia and/or Vernon will be ready to tell Harry to leave and never come back, so it's just about time for that reminder". - James Lawlor jlawlor at gmail.com From jlawlor at gmail.com Tue Jul 20 17:18:59 2004 From: jlawlor at gmail.com (James Lawlor) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:18:59 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Something wrong with this Fudge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96773c880407201018327aec1f@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107075 Lynette >I think Wormtail 'ratted' to Fudge, not Voldemort, and Fudge is > actually the one who revealed the Potter's location. James: Hmm, I don't think so - I doubt the Fidelius Charm works that way. It seems to be that *only* the Secret Keeper can divulge the information (perhaps only willfully as well). If anyone who had been told the Secret could also go and tell it to anyone else, there would be little point in the Charm in the first place. This is supported by the fact that for Harry to get into Grimmauld Place, he had to read the slip of paper from Dumbledore. If someone other than the Secret Keeper can divulge the Secret, Moody would have simply told Harry instead of risking writing it down and possibly having the paper fall into the wrong hands. So I'm afraid that rather damages that part of your theory. ^_~ - James Lawlor jlawlor at gmail.com From WanderingStar20 at aol.com Tue Jul 20 17:19:40 2004 From: WanderingStar20 at aol.com (wanderingstar1979) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 17:19:40 -0000 Subject: Animagus Snape? Was: Re: Who would love Snape? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107076 > WanderingStar wrote: > > > > In particular, I thought about animals that like or prefer the > > cold, are at least partially black, white (pale skin), and might > > have some yellow coloring (teeth) that can be found in Europe > > that might be able to fly or at least have a wingspan (bat > > references), and that have a NEED for some kind of grease or oil > > for their well-being. > ChrisDJ; "esmith222002" wrote: > > My conclusion would be an owl - specifically the barn owl. Barn > owls have black eyes, a hooked nose, produce oil to waterproof > their feathers, prefer the dark (hunt at night, live in dark > places), are very stealthy and predatory. These are all traits > that are shared with Professor Severus Snape. > "potioncat" wrote: > > At the time we were all wondering why Lupin's Boggart turns into a > cockroach (Who thinks cockroaches are funny?) Then right after > the Worst Memory Snape throws cockroaches. So thats sort of where > the cockroach idea came from. Not too long after that I read an > interview whre JKR said she likes writing Snape but she wouldn't > want to have dinner with him and I almost choked! > Anyway, I much prefer Severus the Swan Prince Well, although I spent some time researching swans in particular, I feel fairly certain that if Snape is an animagus, he has to be SOME sort of bird. All the posts about Snape being a vampire point to what I will call the "bat canon" (of which there is, of course, ample evidence). However, this *could* be just a red herring (as they say in "Clue": "Communism was just a red herring"), and meant only to indicate some that he is like ANY kind of winged creature, not necessarily a bat and therefore a vampire. Of course, I won't rule anything out, because I like vampires, and it would be terrifically neat-o. :-) I like Chris DJ's idea of an Owl very much; it's a definite possibility. I did forget to mention two other "clues" in my post from last night, however. In regards to vultures: In PoA, US edition page 135 (chapter 7), the class is working with Boggarts, and Lupin asks Neville what he is most frightened of (Professor Snape, of course), and then asks him what his grandmother wears: "Well ... always the same hat. A tall one with a stuffed vulture on top." A little farther on down the page, Lupin says: "If all goes well, Professor Boggart Snape will be forced into that vulture-topped hat...." On page 137, Neville actually does the Riddikulus spell: "Snape stumbled; he was wearing a long, lace-trimmed dress and a towering hat topped with a moth-eaten vulture." THREE vulture references - on top of a hat, no less! AND (I don't know if this should be here, but I think it's relevant) IIRC, in the film, they actually went through the trouble to get a hat with a vulture on it for the Boggart Snape to wear after Neville does the spell! That seems like a lot of trouble for one odd silly prop if it doesn't mean anything. Again, in PoA, US edition page 227 (chapter 11) (this was also mentioned by Sherrie - MadameSSnape at aol.com - in one of her posts), when HRH go to Christmas dinner with three other students and the staff, Dumbledore offers "Crackers!" or: "the end of a large silver noisemaker to Snape, who took it reluctantly and tugged. With a bang like a gunshot, the cracker flew apart to reveal a large, pointed witch's hat topped with stuffed vulture." Page 228: "Harry, remembering the boggart, caught Ron's eye and they both grinned; Snape's mouth thinned and he pushed the hat toward Dumbledore, who swapped it for his wizard's hat at once." I thought it was kind of interesting to find that same vulture reference brought up yet again. Now, we know Dumbledore is a great wizard, but we also know he has his "dreamy" side. I think he is trying to have some fun here, and perhaps play a joke on Snape in a friendly way. Of course he would know if Snape were a vulture (or any kind of bird) animagus, and would have heard about what happened in Lupin's DDA class. Just think if you were Dumbledore: wouldn't you find the incident hilariously ironic? If Dumbledore heard that Professor Lupin had a student perform the riddikulus spell on Professor Boggart Snape that put Professor Boggart Snape into that student's grandmother's clothing ... which just coincidentally consisted of a gigantic vulture-topped hat? Whether Lupin knew what Neville's grandmother wore or not is a moot point, but from Dumbledore's POV, it's pretty funny, don't you think? So Dumbledore thinks that maybe Snape will find it funny too and that maybe he can lighten Snape up a bit. Of course, Snape being Snape (remembering being made fun of), doesn't find it funny AT ALL (perhaps fears people will pick up on the coincidences and figure him out), and gets pissed. Either Dumbledore uses his Legilimency (as an unexpected event, Snape's emotions would get the best of him and he would be unable to use Occlumency), or can just tell from the look on Snape's face that he's made a mistake in trying to joke around with Snape, and swaps the vulture hat "for his wizard's hat AT ONCE," thereby trying to rectify the mistake and soothe Snape's feelings. I still like the information I found, which I mentioned in my last (and first) post, that some cultures thought vultures where psychic. Okay, so maybe that was kind of overly analytical, but you can't ignore all the vultures! At least, consider the possibility of Snape as a bird of prey, or carrion-feeder. Oh yes, and since I too was very curious about what Potioncat brought up about cockroaches (who DOES think cockroaches are funny?) I wondered if wolves eat cockroaches. I couldn't find anything that says they do. Also, why (as Potioncat brought up) does Snape keep a jar of these in his office, when (according to the Harry Potter lexicon) they are not used in any spells? All the Lexicon says about "cockroaches, dead" is that: "Snape keeps a jar of these in his office"?? Well, here is what I found out about what animals can eat cockroaches: "Unfortunately, cockroaches have a chemical defense that makes puppies and kittens throw them up. Other animals that do eat cockroaches include scorpions, wasps, toads, hedgehogs, and BIRDS, which probably led to the evolution of their instinct to hide out of sight." (http://www.anglophile.ucpress.edu/books/pages/8778/roaches.html) Now, I don't know if this means puppies and kittens can't eat dead cockroaches as well, but it definitely means that birds eat cockroaches, probably live and dead, lending more canon evidence to the theory that Snape could be a bird animagus. Why else would he have dead cockroaches, unless there is some kind of potion we haven't learned about? Of course that is possible, but still, more food (literally, since they would be bird animagus snacks) for thought. Also, weren't there some posts a short while back asking about other creatures (besides vampires) that could fly, like bird animagi? I think someone responded that JKR (I think) had said that bird animagi would lose his or her human intelligence ? something like that. Why would she (or whoever said it) bother making the point if there are not any bird animagi, or other flying animagi? However, there are some birds (like ravens) that are supposed to be extremely intelligent! If they lose human intelligence, don't they have bird intelligence? Birds are a step up the evolutionary ladder from reptiles; are they also a step up the ladder from insects as well? I'm not sure, but if they are, how could Rita Skeeter be smart enough to be a reporter in beetle form if she (as a flying creature, or even possibly as a flightless insect) loses her human intelligence? She couldn't, UNLESS there was either: 1.) Some way around that problem, like a potion one could take to retain intelligence while in animagus form, or a psychic bond with a human being so the human could "see" through the animagus or possibly control it (after all, both Snape and Dumbledore are Legilimens); or 2.) A way to learn to retain intelligence while in bird or insect animagus form, like teaching oneself to resist the Imperious Curse; or 3.) Perhaps there are certain birds or insects that don't have that "loss of intelligence" problem. WanderingStar1979, who needs to be quiet and work on her other big old ancient magic theory (e-mail me at WanderingStar20 at aol.com if you want to hear some if it) before someone else says it. From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 14:00:34 2004 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 07:00:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Another chronology for... Re: "I'm not proud of it" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040720140034.69928.qmail@web50102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107077 Nora wrote: > Let me throw out a precis that I think is the best one available, > because and only because it explains the most things:.... > THIS is where Snape starts to go behind DD's back to do something > he knows his boss wouldn't approve of, and tries to get Black taken > care of before DD can 'cause problems'. This is the explanation > for the quote in the hallway with Fudge . The escape > happens, Snape is furious, and DD lets him fume because he knows > that Snape was up to something wrong; it's worked out later, given > the end of GoF and the reaction there. I completely agree. Snape gave in to his absolutely worst self because he so badly wants the official story to be true. He knows that if he hears the true story that he'll have to accept it but he doesn't want that. I'm surprised he didn't put his hands over his ears. Magda Grantwich From fandomfan at rogers.com Tue Jul 20 14:48:40 2004 From: fandomfan at rogers.com (Sheri) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:48:40 -0400 Subject: Wand Questions Message-ID: <40FD30C8.6050406@rogers.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107078 Sorry if this has been discussed before but I can't figure it out. If the wand chooses the wizard, why can Ron and Neville use another person's wand? Also, since Ron had been using Charlie's old one, what reason would Charlie have for getting the new one? Was it ever implied in the books that you can have more than one wand? Sheri From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 21:04:22 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:04:22 -0000 Subject: Percy... & the Nature of Ambition In-Reply-To: <20040720132153.42208.qmail@web50110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107079 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich wrote: > >> Do people really see Percy as ambitious? I don't. He doesn't > >> crave power - he craves recognition. > > Kristen: > > > > I have to disagree, slightly. Not about Percy being a prat, but > > that he is not ambitious. ...in my mind, that Percy is definitely > > ambitous. He is probably ALSO looking for attention and > > recognition that he gets from no one other than his Mother. > Magda: > > None of those examples proves that Percy is ambitious for POWER - > ... He's ambitious to prove himself so that people in positions of > authority will clap him on the shoulder and tell him what a fine > young man he is. > > I repeat, Percy doesn't know what real power is, ... isn't striving > to attain it or use it. It's his desire for approbation and praise > that makes him vulnerable to manipulation... ,... There's no guile > ..., no deep secret plotting or scheming. ... That Ron thinks he'd > throw the family to the Dementors to get ahead shows us that Ron > doesn't really understand what power's all about either. > > Magda Asian_lovr2: This debate is not about whether Percy has ambition, but the NATURE of that ambition. Ambition is not always a negative thing. Percy is most certainly driven by a need for recognition and approval, a need the started when he was very young, and has now become very ingrained in him. I think this need for approval is part of Percy's role as the 'Good Son'... The Original 'Good Son' post- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/43283 Percy isn't just seeking approval, but is desperate to get that approval by doing things right, and starting as a young boy the only measure he had of 'right' were rule and regulations. So he holds firmly to those rules as his standard for self-determination. Working under the false permise that if you always do things 'right' you will never be wrong. In the past when we discussed the nature of right and wrong, and morality, we discovered that ridgedly obeying the rules is very low on the scale of moral development. Why? Because if all you do is blindly follow the rules, then you conviniently put yourself in a position where you never have to debate a moral dilemma, you never have to make a moral decision. In addition, you conviniently never have to challenge the rules because you've already given your thinking process over to other people, the rule makers. That might seem reasonable in a perfect world, but in the real world, rules and rulers are corrupt. Rules are created for self-serving purposes, and are frequently changed to suit the whim of those who rule. Given that rules are corrupt, it is a far more morally developed person who makes an internal moral decision based on their preception of right and wrong rather than blindly following the rules. This is an internal lesson that Hermione has learned, although it took her a while, but a lesson that Percy has not. Although, given the circumstances, I think it is a lesson Percy will learn in the hardest of ways. Back to Percy-The Good Son and his need to do things right. From one perspective, Percy has done what is right. He stood by his duly elected/appointed government and he followed the hard evidents; he obeyed the rules. From a ridged rules-based perspective, he has done nothing wrong. It must be immensely frustrating for Percy trying to resolve how doing it right could go so wrong. I conclude the frustration and moral dilemma will lead him to moral enlightenment. Relative to Percy new job, I'm in the camp that lays a great deal of the blame on Arthur for their falling out. If Arthur understood Percy, he would have realized that congradulating Percy first, then delicately explaining to him that Percy was now in a compromising postion. That being close to the Family and therefore Dumbledore, the was a chance that Fudge may come to the conclustion that he can use Percy to get information. Taking this approach makes it sound like the promotion and job appointment are one thing, and Fudge's idea to use Percy as a spy is an after thought unrelated to Percy getting the job. But that's no how it happened. The wizard world is not known for it's subtlity or tact. Given how things did go, I side with the person who suggested that Percy cut himself off from his family to prove to himself, mostly, and to everyone else that he got and could keep the job on his own merit. Since Percy as a Spy can work both ways, Percy could just as easily spy ON Fudge as FOR Fudge. The only way Percy can be sure there are no ulterior motives on anyone's part, is to cut himself of completely and totally. Even a Christmas gift could be construde as Molly trying to get on Percy's good side so she could get information. Now Percy is faced with perhaps his greatest moral dilemma; does he stubbornly (damn, those Weasleys are stubborn) maintain his distance, or does he go back to his family humilated asking for forgiveness. Humiliation is not the easiest choice to make, but I think Percy will eventually come around. He certainly does love his family, and they, deep down, do love him, and as the old adage goes 'love conquers all'. Once again, for those seeking deeper insight into Percy- From: "Steve" Date: Sun Jan 11, 2004 2:16 pm Subject: Ron is like Percy (was Chapter Discussion...) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/88447 Compares Ron and Percy's character. From: "Steve" Date: Mon Dec 15, 2003 1:52 pm Subject: Re: Is it all Percy's fault? NOT!!! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/87132 A newer variation of my "Good Son" Theory. From: "Steve" Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 4:40 pm Subject: BRAVO! - Percy Weasley under ... Imperius Curse? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/85258 From: "manawydan" Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 2:13 pm Subject: Re: Percy Weasley under Lucius' Imperius Curse? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/85244 Written by a avid Percy Defender, and stimulus for the post listed above. From: "Steve" Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 5:06 pm Subject: Re: Where Percy got Scabbers http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/83893 A 'logical extension' analysis of the likely circumstance in which Percy aquired Scabbers. From: "Steve" Date: Mon Jun 30, 2003 4:42 pm Subject: Re: Percy - The Good Boy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/66159 Recommended for all Percy Defenders. One of the original post of my 'Good Son' Theory. From: "manawydan" Date: Mon Jun 30, 2003 12:58 pm Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Percy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/66065 From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan Date: Fri Jan 5, 2001 9:01 pm Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Percy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/8631 The beginning of a long Percy thread that splinters into several Sub-Threads. Just a thought. Steve/asian_lovr2 From harp66 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 18:55:54 2004 From: harp66 at yahoo.com (Peter Shea) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:55:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Doesn't Voldemort know about Snape's loyalty? Message-ID: <20040720185554.228.qmail@web50801.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107080 I was reading PS/SS and it dawned on me--if Quirrell knew that Snape was loyal to Dumbledore, and Quirrell was possessed by Voldemort, wouldn't Voldemort know that Snape is in the OOTP? What then would be the value of Snape moving undercover among, presumably, Deatheaters? Peter From drliss at comcast.net Tue Jul 20 20:58:47 2004 From: drliss at comcast.net (Lissa Hess) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:58:47 -0400 Subject: Snape's Patronus In-Reply-To: <1090355775.23930.4583.m3@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20040720165241.0177e3f8@mail.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 107081 >Potioncat: >At one time I thought (like Chris) that Snape may have learned to be >an animagus to compete with the Marauders. But Snape doesn't learn >about Sirius being an animagus until GoF. He certainly didn't >recognise the Dog. So I don't think we have any canon for his >being one. We do have a lot of bug-like descriptions of him. (Bat- >like too.) So I don't know where that leaves us. > >As far as the Animagus and Patronus forms being the same. I doubt >it. The Animagus form seems to be determined by what kind of person >the wizard is. The Patronus form seems to be determined by what >sort of Protective-figure (Father/Patron) the wizard has.(or seeks?) It would be interesting if Snape's patronus was a phoenix, wouldn't it? :) I am curious as to see what it is- it sounds like we will. (I'd be curious to see exactly what form Lupin's took too, I certainly can't see a cockroach chasing down Dementors!) As far as Snape being an Animagus though, I tend to think not- pretty much for the same reason I think a Weasley's gonna die- economy of numbers. Animagi are supposed to be incredibly rare- Hermione said there's been 7 this century (I assume that's in GB, or GB has a very high precentage of the worlds' animagi.). We already have 3 unregistered animagi running around Hogwarts, and Rita Skeeter being an unregistered animagus. So unless JKR is shooting for thirteen animagi... (I doubt Snape is a registered animagus because Hermione would have known and mentioned it, I assume.) How many times can you use the same plot device? I don't think she'll do that one. Also, while I think Snape may be redeemed, I get the impression he's never going to be a nice person. Ever. At least, that's the way she seems to talk when she says we're all getting a little too fond of Severus! Lissa From cartoonista at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 14:45:48 2004 From: cartoonista at yahoo.com (cartoonista) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:45:48 -0000 Subject: Cold case files - The Riddle Case In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107082 Mayeaux45 wrote: > I've read GoF a few times and I'm confused about one part of the > Riddle murders...the book said 3 Riddles. The Mother, Father, > and...Tom? But Tom Marvolo Riddle is Lord Voldemort, so......I'm > confused! Who are the 3 Riddles? My understanding was that the 3 Riddles were: 1. Grandma Riddle 2. Grandpa Riddle 3. Dad Riddle (also named Tom) > It's been a while since I've read CoS...did JKR mention in the book > that Tom's dad left his mother after he found out she was a witch. > Because that would explain it! I didn't come to the conclusion by > reading that chapter in GoF that the 3 Riddles were Tom's father > and his grandparents.... Yes, that's it exactly! I'm pretty sure Tom (Jr.) grew up in a orphanage because his father left his mother (because she was a witch) and his mother died, leaving him alone. "cartoonista" From jlawlor at gmail.com Tue Jul 20 21:49:21 2004 From: jlawlor at gmail.com (James Lawlor) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:49:21 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Doesn't Voldemort know about Snape's loyalty? In-Reply-To: <20040720185554.228.qmail@web50801.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040720185554.228.qmail@web50801.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <96773c8804072014491010ac07@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107083 Peter: > I was reading PS/SS and it dawned on me--if Quirrell > knew that Snape was loyal to Dumbledore, and Quirrell > was possessed by Voldemort, wouldn't Voldemort know > that Snape is in the OOTP? James: Well, we know that Voldemort never revealed himself to Snape (or else Snape would certainly have told Dumbledore and so on - unless we have an ESEDoubleAgent!Snape thing going on...), so he would have seen Snape's "loyalty" to Dumbledore and expected it. We can probably safely assume that Voldemort wanted absolute secrecy until he had the Stone and the Elixer, which explains why he wouldn't tell Snape or any of the other Death Eaters. He wouldn't know Snape is in the Order, because I highly doubt that the teachers sit around in the lounge discussing it. Not only would they not discuss it in front of an outsider (Quirrel), but they really have no reason to (since Voldemort isn't around, or so they think). Or, perhaps Voldemort already knows that Snape has betrayed him, in which case the question still stands. - James Lawlor jlawlor at gmail.com From brenda-chaisson at rogers.com Tue Jul 20 19:19:37 2004 From: brenda-chaisson at rogers.com (luckdragon64) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:19:37 -0000 Subject: Snape's Patronus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107084 ChrisDJ wrote: > In one of JKR's recent interviews she said that she couldn't say > what Snape's patronus was as this would give too much away. A > patronus ... is only a means of warding off Dementors, and therefore > is hardly going to be a central plot point. Therefore, the only > conclusion that one can take from this comment is that Snape is an > animagi. This then leads us to what animal Snape would become. > My conclusion would be an owl - specifically the barn owl. Barn owls > have black eyes, a hooked nose, produce oil to waterproof their > feathers, prefer the dark (hunt at night, live in dark places), are > very stealthy and predatory. These are all traits that are shared with > Professor Severus Snape. Maybe I'm way off base, but I've always thought Snape to be very "Battish". I lean towards the Snape is a vampire theory and that his patronus or animagus would be a bat. The way he drapes his cloak around him, always seems to roam around the school at night, prefers teaching in a dark dungeon and is never seen eating. Perhaps this is why J.K. Rowling said she would not want to have dinner with Snape. The main loop in my theory is that Snape does go outdoors in daylight, however if he was able to make a potion to prevent Lupin turning into a werewolf maybe he also has a potion for his vampire tendencies. "luckdragon64" From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Tue Jul 20 22:05:25 2004 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 22:05:25 -0000 Subject: In defense of considering pureblood preference racism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107085 Perhaps I have not traced the thread far back enough, but I am having trouble understanding why people are so concerned with finding the perfect real-world analogue for pureblood prejudice. If it is a question of authorial intent, it seems likely to me that when JKR portrays prejudices in the WW, she is aware of their parallels to many different systems of prejudice in the RW (including those based on race, gender, religion, caste, sexual preference, social class, old age, handicap, etc.). Indeed, the very fact that Rowling has portrayed such a range of forms of prejudice *without* replicating common real-world prejudices suggests to me that she has consciously chosen to cast her characters' prejudices in different forms. I have speculated before that she does so in order to allow her readers to form opinions about the prejudices she portrays without dragging in already-formed views about RW political issues. The prejudices and stereotypes that some witches and wizards in the books apply to other sentient species -- the elves, the goblins, the giants, etc. -- are perhaps the most direct analogues to racism. But I also agree with SOF that the relationship between wizards and house elves has echoes of a caste system. For one thing, the social status of the master and the elf play into the relationship so strongly; for another, the insistence (requirement) that the elves wear rags reinforces the view that the line between master and elf is based on more than genetics. Similarly, there are aspects of anti-Muggle prejudice that correspond to racism, as well as aspects that correspond more closely with other forms of RW prejudice. It is like racism in that it is tied to bloodlines, reveres "purity" of blood, and deplores intermarriage; the discrmination is based on immutable personal characteristics. It has little connection to caste or social class discrimination, because the different classes are not assigned to different economic or social positions (there are rich purebloods, rich Muggles, and rich Muggle-born wizards; each group has members in noble occupations and those with simpler and even menial jobs). Perhaps it can be better analogized to social status discrimination based on lineage or nobility. The Muggle prejudice against wizards has some loose ties to religious discrimination. A case can also be made (and has before on this list) for an analogy to sexual orientation. In the end, I think it is not terribly relevant what form of real-world prejudice is *most* analogous to the forms we see in the novels. It is quite clear from the presentation that Rowling deplores all of these forms of (WW) discrimination equally. Although that feeling is not yet universal in the WW, and even some of our main characters have blind spots (esp. wrt Kreacher), I think one of the upshots of VWII will be the triumph of the ethos that rejects such discrimination and prejudices. Certainly that is one of Dumbledore's aims in preaching unity. -- Matt From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 20 22:07:34 2004 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 22:07:34 +0000 Subject: The Cockroach Connection? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107086 "wanderingstar1979" pointed out: >Also, why (as Potioncat brought up) does Snape keep a >jar of these in his office, when (according to the Harry Potter >lexicon) they are not used in any spells? All the Lexicon says >about "cockroaches, dead" is that: "Snape keeps a jar of these in his >office"?? *snip* >Now, I don't know if this means puppies and kittens can't eat dead >cockroaches as well, but it definitely means that birds eat >cockroaches, probably live and dead, lending more canon evidence to >the theory that Snape could be a bird animagus. Why else would he >have dead cockroaches, unless there is some kind of potion we haven't >learned about? Of course that is possible, but still, more food >(literally, since they would be bird animagus snacks) for thought. I'm of two minds about the animagus theory. On the one hand, we have had an awful lot of them already for something that's supposed to be rare. On the other hand, Hermione never did tell us *who* the other six registered animagi were -- all she said was that one of them was MacGonagall. As I said elsewhere, I wouldn't fall down with amazement if Dumbledore, for example, was registered, and if Harry and/or Ron find out about it and that she knew it all along, she would probably say "Well, I just looked it up in the library, and you could have too!" But I wonder if there isn't something about cockroaches too. How often have we heard about Cockroach Clusters? It's sold at Honeydukes (Fred and George suggest feeding some to Percy and claiming they're peanuts), and I do believe it's used somewhere as a password. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From v-tregan at microsoft.com Tue Jul 20 22:07:02 2004 From: v-tregan at microsoft.com (Tim Regan) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 22:07:02 -0000 Subject: Hagrid and Mysterious Eggs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107087 Hi All, Wow ? what a fab post! In post 106761 CDR speculated: >>> In CoS, Aragog reveals his origins to Harry and Ron. "I was not born in the castle. I come from a distant land. A traveler gave me to Hagrid when I was an egg." (CoS15) Who is this traveler? <<< >>> Was it Riddle (in disguise) who gave Hagrid the Acromantula egg (not too likely, he's no traveler at that point)? <<< I agree, that one doesn't seem likely. >>> Or, more likely, another wizard, someone Riddle meets or knows <<< Yeah, I buy that. I'm having trouble digging anyone up. But let's assume that even at 13 Hagrid was a hardened drinker, and that he met the traveller in a pub in Hogsmeade. How about Dumbledore's eavesdropper from OotP: Of course, I had not dreamed, when I set out to meet Sybill Trelawney, that I would hear anything worth overhearing. My - our - one stroke of good fortune was that the eavesdropper was detected only a short way into the prophecy and thrown from the building. We've no idea how old they are, how long they've known Tom Riddle, how pure their blood is, or if they are royal. Cheers, Dumlbedad From eleanor at dreamvine.org.uk Tue Jul 20 22:03:09 2004 From: eleanor at dreamvine.org.uk (iamvine) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 22:03:09 -0000 Subject: Wand Questions In-Reply-To: <40FD30C8.6050406@rogers.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107088 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Sheri wrote: > Sorry if this has been discussed before but I can't figure it out. If > the wand chooses the wizard, why can Ron and Neville use another > person's wand? Also, since Ron had been using Charlie's old one, what > reason would Charlie have for getting the new one? Was it ever implied > in the books that you can have more than one wand? I always thought "the wand chooses the wizard" was probably Mr Ollivander's idea of marketing - encouraging people not to use their ancestors' wands but to buy their own. I guess it is partly true, but not as much as Ollivander would like us to think. I imagine that Charlie eventually fell for the sales patter and got his own when he could afford it - the one he passed on to Ron wasn't originally his either. Eleanor From srae1971 at bellsouth.net Tue Jul 20 22:05:31 2004 From: srae1971 at bellsouth.net (Shannon) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 18:05:31 -0400 Subject: Dumbledore's howler, Dumbledore and Petunia, (was Re: New JKR FAQ Poll: Which is significant?) In-Reply-To: <96773c88040720103228e76328@mail.gmail.com> References: <5.1.1.6.1.20040720071355.00c7c6b0@mail.bellsouth.net> <5.1.1.6.1.20040720071355.00c7c6b0@mail.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.1.20040720175450.00c58c20@mail.bellsouth.net> No: HPFGUIDX 107089 >I,Shannon, said: > > I voted for #3, because that Howler was worded too oddly to just be a > > reminder of her agreement to take Harry in and protect him. He could have > > just said, "remember your promise." And would that have had such an impact > > on her? I think there's definitely more to know there. > >James Lawlor replied: >You know, when I was first reading OotP, my initial guess was that the >Howler was, in fact, from Lily. I figured perhaps she had somehow >rigged a charm to send the Howler or left a Howler with instructions >to send at the appropriate time. But it suddenly occurs to me that it >could be Dumbledore's voice sending the Howler, but Lily's words. >Perhaps referring to a conversation Lily and Petunia had before she >died. That's an interesting idea, and hadn't occurred to me at all. I always thought it was odd that Harry wouldn't have recognized Dumbledore's voice immediately, though I guess it could have sounded very different from the Dumbledore Harry knows. Still, it struck me as odd. And I can't get past the wording of it. It's too unusually worded for me to accept Dumbledore's explanation as the whole story. >"Remember my last, Petunia" does strike me as something more likely to >come from a sister than a >mentor-grandfather-type-headmaster-to-sister-and-nephew person. And besides that, as far as we know at this point, Petunia wouldn't have had any reason to have any significant contact with Dumbledore. From someone she knew, such a brief and cryptic message wouldn't seem all that out of place. You'd *know* what it meant in that case, probably. Presuming that Petunia had no tie to the wizarding world other than Lily (which I'm starting to doubt), it seems that Dumbledore would want to make certain that she knew exactly what he was talking about. But she didn't seem to express any uncertainty at all about what the message meant or who it was from. >Another thing, now that I think about it. How would Dumbledore know >when to send the Howler (regardless of who "wrote" it)? We know the >MoM knew about Harry's using the Patronus Charm, and that Dumbledore >could have found out via them or one of the members of the Order. But >unless there was someone sitting out under the window of Number 4 >Privet Drive, they wouldn't know that Harry had just been "throw out". I assumed, as you suggest, that it was just that he knew the Dursleys might have reached the end of their tether with Dudley suddenly attacked. Shannon [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From patientx3 at aol.com Tue Jul 20 22:41:10 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 22:41:10 -0000 Subject: Fudge: Evil or what??? In-Reply-To: <20040720164147.5766.qmail@web50105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107090 Magda Grantwich wrote: >> It would be quite deflating, characterization-wise, if EVERYONE who disagreed with Dumbledore turned out to be a DE or definitely evil. << HunterGreen: But we're not talking about EVERYONE here, we're talking about one man. In the case of Umbridge, I'd agree with you, if she turned out to be a DE it would be sort of deflating, but there's far more shady about Fudge than him not believing Voldemort has come back. What do we know about Fudge? At first his introduced as a nervous, sort of bumbling, oddly dressed beauracrat. Not too much of a threat to anyone, and sort of matching the description of him calling for Dumbledore's advice all the time in his early days at the post. He takes Hagrid away, mentioning *several* times that pressure is on him to do *something*. Of course taking Hagrid away won't help anything, and I think he knows that, but he has to at least appear to be trying to solve the problem. Then Malfoy comes in with the order to remove Dumbledore, and Fudge does fight against it, so his actions are sort of in the middle here. On the one hand, he's doing the one public thing to help with the school that won't help in the least bit, but on the other, he seems genuinally worried about Dumbledore leaving. PoA, though, is where he gets sort of suspicious. A lot of the events of PoA are a little off though. This starts with Sirius' escape from Azkaban...its said over and over that he is the *only* person to ever manage it, that is until, the mass revolt in OotP, because they had help. However, Sirius' escape story is rather mundane, no grand use of dark magic or specific cunning at all: [PoA, chpt 19, pg 372; US ed] 'So, one night when they opened my door to bring food, I slipped past them as a dog.... It's so much harder for them to sense animal emotions that they were confused.... I was thin, very thin... thin enough to slip through the bars.... I swam as a dog back to the mainland.... I journeyed north and slipped into the Hogwarts grounds as a dog.' Why didn't anyone else escape before if it was that simple? The only thing special he did was turn into a dog, and although his emotions were 'different' it wasn't *impossible* for them to sense him. Wouldn't it have been just as easy for someone else to slip out (during their first few months there, before they are weakened), and just run for it and then swim away or swim far enough to appaperate? (although, I suppose there aren't *that* many life-long residents of Azkaban, maybe the others don't think escaping is worth it). Its oddly easy for him, unless he was helped somehow. The dementers don't really talk to people that much--or ever--so if someone told them to let Black go, who would ever find out? Who would be in that position? Fudge. Now, of course, there's the issue of motive, why would Fudge want to let Sirius Black escape. If he wanted to kill Harry, that would be the easiest way to do it. Perhaps after hearing that Black has been talking in his sleep for a time, Fudge has an idea. If he makes it easy for Black to escape, *he'll* kill Harry, and Fudge won't have any blood on his hands. OR if Black doesn't manage to do it himself, Fudge has a reason to dispatch the dementers into the school and onto the train and into Hogsmeade, and tell *them* to kill Harry. Then after the fact, all he has to to is stand back and comment, "Oh, I don't know why they'd do that...". Whether or not you agree with ESE!Fudge, it is clear that the dementers do some odd things in PoA. We see them first on the train to Hogwarts, when they get on mid-way through to search the cab. Since I covered this already in another post(#98042), I'll just paste it here: >It struck me as odd that they would stop the train HALFWAY through to search it, rather than doing it at the beginning of the trip. Obviously, if Sirius was on the train, he would have got to Harry long before the Dementers came to look for him. Of course, they could have searched it BEFORE it loaded with students, but that makes searching it several hours later sort of useless, doesn't it? And their search is a little odd too. Its a fair estimate that the Dementer searched each compartment of the train, ending with the last one, where Harry was. The door opens, Harry passes out, then the Dementer just stands there for a moment. Lupin asks it to leave, but it doesn't move until he uses (I'm guessing) expecto patronum on it. Now why is that? Its clear just opening the door who's in there and who's not (especially since the dementer 'senses' rather than 'looks'), and certainly no one else on the train had to use a charm to get the dementer to leave (since none of them know it), so why does it just stand there? Perhaps they were dispatched on the train as soon as Fudge could get them there (which was halfway through), with orders to find Harry, and that's why it didn't leave until Lupin *forced* it to.< Then later on, during the quidditch match, its mentioned that they *all* are looking up at Harry, focusing their attention on him, in a *huge* crowd. And of course there's the finale, after the dementers have been *given permission* (meaning they usually DON'T have permission) to use the Kiss on Sirius, they ignore him after he passes out and go to Harry, who they *don't* have permission to do anything to. (or do they?) Fudge is the only character we've seen who appears to get along with dementors (besides perhaps Voldemort). He uses one again in GoF, when he goes up to "interview" Barty Jr. How odd that he both happened to have a dementor on hand, and that it *immediately* went to Barty Jr. and performed the kiss the moment it walked in the room. Like I said above, its a fair guess that the dementors are NOT allowed to perform the kiss on anyone they like, but they will (happily, I'm sure) do it if they are TOLD to. As to the issue of Fudge disagreeing about Voldemort's return, his attitude and feelings on the subject are interesting to say the least at the end of GoF. Right after Crouch Jr. is killed he begins by denying that Crouch was anything but a murderer and a psychotic (implying that its not that much of a loss that he "died" before being able to testify), then he tries to debunk Voldemort's return by saying that the word of Harry and and Barty Jr. aren't enough, he tries to change the subject at one point, accusing Dumbledore of trying to de-stabalize him, and then when he's faced with evidence he cannot deny (Snape's dark mark), he says 'I have nothing more to add.' and leaves. His attitude goes from stubborn, to angry, to accusatory, to fearful, and finally just exhausted. Even when he's exhausted though, his reaction is to still feebily keep up the charade that he doesn't think Voldemort could *possibly* be back, at one point *pleading* with Dumbledore to believe him. Then, like I said above, when he runs out of ways to deny it, he just leaves. It seems like he's motivated by something else here. Either its just a basic love of power, and his desire to NOT have to be concerned with telling the public that Voldemort is back, or he's knows it for a fact and is trying to cover it up. There are other things odd about him too. For one thing he has a strange relationship with Lucius Malfoy. He goes out of his way to greet Lucius at the World Cup, he's "visibly affronted" when Harry calls him a DE, and he's meeting with Lucius the day of Harry's trial. Meeting with him privately. Now, I know how much money changes hand between the two men, but if he's not ESE, he's seriously corrupt. Also, he appears to be at the VERY least, mildly prejudice. He makes comments about both Hagrid and Madam Maxine being half-giants, AND comments about Lupin and his werewolf-ness during his argument with Dumbledore in GoF. And then Dumbledore accuses him of being blinded by his love of power and that he places too much importance on blood- purity, a charge that Fudge doesn't dispute. And Dumbledore says this shortly after Dumbledore was 'staring hard at Fudge, as though seeing him plainly for the first time.'. The guy has some questionable motives, to say the least. And his constant way of appearing nervous in almost every time we see him (during which Dumbledore is always present) is kind of strange too. I just wouldn't be surprised if he's hiding something. From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Tue Jul 20 23:21:05 2004 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:21:05 -0000 Subject: Fudge's name any significance? was Re: Something wrong with this Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107091 Katie wrote: > I like all this discussion about Fudge and I also think > that he had a lot to do with Sirius' arrest and being > framed. I have always thought about chocolate when I > read his name but now I think it alludes to him being a > liar. When someone 'fudges' they aren't telling the > truth. Has anyone brought this up yet? I'm not so sure about Fudge as evil; I see him more as the quintessential bureaucrat, who values process (or the appearance thereof), preservation of the status quo, and above all retaining his position of authority, while discounting principles and anything that makes his job more difficult than it needs to be. But I agree with you that the name fits him, and especially those characteristics I just listed. "To fudge" is not just to be dishonest, but, more specifically, to adjust the facts -- or the standards of proof -- for one's own convenience, to fit a theory or a desired result. Sirius Black is the one I caught, therefore Sirius Black is guilty. Barty Crouch escaped from Azkaban and is babbling about the return of Voldemort? Summary justice: Dementor's kiss. Voldemort's return is a threat to my power, therefore Voldemort has not returned. Dumbledore and Harry say Voldemort has returned? Harry is a delusional attention-grabber, and Dumbledore must be losing his grip. Etc., etc., etc. From owlery2003 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 23:24:08 2004 From: owlery2003 at yahoo.com (Scott Santangelo) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:24:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Nagini venom In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040720232408.68572.qmail@web60107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107092 saraquel_omphale wrote: The only reference to mythology around her name I can find is about a woman (the Dragon King's daughter) who achieved instant Buddhahood by sacrificing her life. (http://www.khandro.net/mysterious_nagini.htm) owlery2003 adds: Lots of previous posts on this - see also Rudyard Kipling's "Rikki Tikki Tavi" for mentions of Nag and Nagina. Someone else also pointed out the common use in Indian folk lore . . . --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Tue Jul 20 23:44:31 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:44:31 -0000 Subject: New JKR FAQ Poll: Which is significant? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107093 > Jen wrote: Maybe your right, Valky! I figured since JKR was picking the questions they wouldn't hold important clues, but... < boyd: I think some of these questions are simply opportunities for us to tell Jo which characters' offscreen (so to speak) stories we'd like to see. She's probably imagined much more that she only has space to hint at in the books, ala Tolkien. For example, perhaps she does have a great reason for the Dursleys to keep Harry around, but it's not central to the plot. So in order to keep the books somewhat reasonably sized, she has simply cut this bit of story out. Ditto the Percy and Wormtail bits. And now she gives us this opportunity to tell her which bits of story we'd like to hear more of...in her FAQ. If that's the case, then this is actually a very nice gesture on her part, don't you think? --boyd who'd like to hear more about ex-Marauder Wormtail than Percy the git or the Dullsleys From marnyhelfrich at comcast.net Tue Jul 20 22:32:48 2004 From: marnyhelfrich at comcast.net (Marny Helfrich) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 18:32:48 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wand Questions References: Message-ID: <01ef01c46ea9$7cfb2a20$8e2f8c45@mynewputer> No: HPFGUIDX 107094 ----- Original Message ----- > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Sheri wrote: > > Sorry if this has been discussed before but I can't figure it out. If > > the wand chooses the wizard, why can Ron and Neville use another > > person's wand? > Iamvine added: > I always thought "the wand chooses the wizard" was probably Mr Ollivander's idea of > marketing - encouraging people not to use their ancestors' wands but to buy their own. Marny now: What Mr. Oleander says is "You'll never get such good results with another wizard's wand" (SS, Chapter 5 Dagon Ally, pg. 84 (Scholastic)), which is not exactly the same thing as saying "If you use another wizard's wand it won't work at all." Maybe you get more "oomph," more precision, something from a well-matched wand. And after all, neither Ron nor Neville is a champion wizard. Just a thought. Marny From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Wed Jul 21 00:02:14 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 00:02:14 -0000 Subject: Another chronology for... Re: "I'm not proud of it" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107095 > Potioncat wrote: > Why isn't DD more supportive of Snape? Snape afterall, once again is made to look like a fool. How much longer will Snape want DD's trust? < boyd: In BADD ANGST (#81068 and 81487) I offered the explanation for Dumbledore's general actions that he simply respects everyone's boundaries. One manifestation of this is that he doesn't tell others' secrets--that's why he doesn't tell Crouch the truth about Sirius and Pettigrew before the execution. Another manifestation of respecting others' boundaries is that he doesn't make others' choices for them. So instead of telling Harry and Hermione to "go save Buckbeak and Sirius!" he simply helps them realize how they can save them *if they choose*. It's their choice, not his. And here's one more reason to let Snape look like a fool: it's fun. ;) --boyd From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Wed Jul 21 00:26:05 2004 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 00:26:05 -0000 Subject: Triumph in tragedy (Re: tragedy or triumph?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107097 I reply here to Hans and Valky. Well, I suppose that what I'm about to post is nothing new and already lies in the archives, but as I'm too lazy to explore them tonight, you will have to forgive me if I this is `Bis repetita'. Hans wrote: (snipping) " Why is this process often depicted as being full of suffering and sorrow, when in fact liberation is the most wonderful and beautiful thing there is. I just don't know why Harry has to suffer so much. I don't know why Jesus' crucifixion is regarded as such torture. And the Alchemical Wedding with its 7 decapitations isn't exactly a tea party either. Yet what can be more ecstatic than to be liberated from our own inner evil? Sure, it's hard work. It's painful to have to give up the forces within us that enslave us to the past and which have accumulated to become world-dominating, but in essence the process is overwhelmingly joyous. (snipping) To attempt to answer my own question, perhaps the darkness and tragedy are there to offset the ultimate light and sublimity of it. I guess people are in fact attracted by the struggle of light against darkness. The harder and darker the struggle, the more effulgent the ultimate victory of the light.(snipping)" Hi, Hans, You titled your post `Tragedy or triumph'. As for me, I would rather say `Triumph in tragedy', because that's precisely what, IMO, Jesus' crucifixion or the Alchemical Wedding are. That's also what the Harry Potter books are, by many aspects. I think more precisely of GoF and OotP. In both books, Harry passes through very painful trials, and he is in a certain way defeated. In GoF, he is kidnapped, tortured and raped (that how I summarise what happens in the graveyard); and he ends up with the double burden of feeling responsible for Cedric's death and for Voldemort's return. In OotP, he passes through physical and mental torture, and he ends up with another double burden: feeling responsible for Sirius's death, and being by now the Prophecy Boy, he who has to kill or being killed. In both cases, it's a tragic situation, and that's by the way how JKR herself depicts it in OotP, when she writes ` his life was a tragedy'(sorry, but I don't remember in which chapter it appears) or `He was ? he had always been- a marked man' (last chapter). But that's something we already knew, since the beginning: it's written in the very first book, in `The Sorting Hat' chapter, when we can read that Mac Gonagall is going to lead Harry to his DOOM. Since the very first book, JKR refers to tragedy. And what a tragedy: in Harry's case, it's not a belittled word, the one we tend to use whenever something very sad happens. It's the original term, the philosophic one, the Greek term. When she writes the story of Harry, JKR explores the same world the Greek tragic authors depict in their works. Of course, the context, the style and the sociological references are different, but the essence is the same. `Harry Potter', like Greek tragedies, is a painting of human passions (by `passions', understand `pains' or `sufferings'). And regarding tragic heroes, what looks a priori like defeat or a death finally turns out to be a triumph. That's all the paradox of tragedy: though they die, though they are defeated, the heroes, because they suffered and faced their consciousness, finally triumph. Sometimes they are mean, sometimes they act evil, and sometimes they make the bad choice. But they try to move ahead, they have a consciousness, and they face the truth. For that reason, they are human, plainly human. And for that reason too, they show greatness. Taking the alchemical vocabulary, we can say their story and their final defeat, or death, are the different operations that lead to a pure truth: the greatness of human hood, our Philosopher Stone. Because being human is actually a great job, even if we, like Harry at the beginning of his journey, don't always understand what it means. It's not that easy, and Voldemort is there to prove it. He preferred to hide behind a snake mask instead of facing his human condition. Harry, on the opposite, faces what he is. Sometimes it's not brilliant, but even when, like a tragic Greek mask, he looks terrible, he stands the trial, and he learns. There's more concerning tragedy. It has what the Greeks called `a cathartic function'. The Greeks thought a depiction of human passions had a purifying power. The authors hoped people would leave the theatre better than they had come in ( I agree that what I'm currently writing can sound oversimplifying, but I can't put in a post what it took authors complete books to explain). Of course, it doesn't work like a Transfiguration incantation. A tragedy can't that radically change the way people behave. But it makes them think, it plants seeds in their mind and, who knows, one day those seeds can give something new. It also puts people face to face with what they are. It makes consciousness work. And every time consciousness works, even if it hurts, even if it doesn't lead to `purification', it's an improvement. Well, maybe JKR didn't have that aspect of tragedy when she started writing the story of Harry and when she made him what he is. However, her books, being written according to the tragic code, happen to have the same cathartic function. Those who read them have to face soon or later their own consciousness. Harry learns, and they learn from him. That's how I feel concerning the `tragic dimension' of the books. It's of course only my point of view. Valky replied to Hans: (snipping) "To that end, I would be disappointed if JKR was to, herself, attempt to muffle such a beautiful message with soft renderings of the "Death and Rebirth" or *too* mild portrayals of the suffering of Harry. I am positive that she won't." Iris: I hope you are right, Valky. And I agree with you: the saddest ending to this story would be a sloppy ending. Wizards, centaurs, goblins and elves dancing together, huge fireworks in the Hogwarts sky BRRR!!! "She has already done so, and very well, in her first book of the series. Harry Potter and the Philosophers Stone *is the Childrens Book*. It is age appropriate and has the entire message encapsulated so brilliantly that JKR may never have needed to write another if she were just writing for children. I firmly believe that the series is intended to grow with the reader and the dark and serious themes that we expect at the end will not seem out of place in their context." Iris: Yes, the Philosopher's Stone book looks like a children book. It reminds me that many alchemical treatises are written like fairytales, that they look like fantasies. The Alchemists themselves used to call their work `a children game'. It doesn't matter: at the end of the book, there are chapter 16 and 17. And they definitely don't look like a children tale, by many aspects. Valky: "So here I am merely saying that, when I said we could avoid gratuitous carnage in the final books, what I intend is to acknowledge that the notion of decapitating our beloved R and H conjures an image of unnecessary graphic bloodshed in the context of the books." (snipping) Iris: JKR doesn't need to paint carnage, actually. What always struck me in her books is her ability to paint extremely violent situations without using all the `banging and bloody stuff' other authors tend to put in their books when they want to show violence. Sometimes she seems to write using a scalpel, or maybe one of Umbridge's detention black quills. It doesn't make noise, it doesn't spatter. But it hurts. Amicalement, Iris From armadillof at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 00:43:58 2004 From: armadillof at yahoo.com (armadillof) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 00:43:58 -0000 Subject: can a patronus be a person? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107098 Is the patronus capable of being a person or inanimate object? We have only seen three examples....but if they are the things that protect you and or save you, and the patronus makes you feel safe and at peace....wouldn't it make sense if Snape's was a person. I was thinking wouldn't it be a riot if we discovered that Snape's patronus was either someone like Lily, James, Dumbledore or even Harry? (Based on what we know of Snape's character I don't know if I'd wish the last one on him after all he goes through...) I mean, that WOULD reveal a lot....and I can't quite see that bats reveal that much about Snape since he is not a vampire. Maybe a bat would be his animagus...and muggle/wizard would be a patronus? That might explain why we were not told.... AF :) From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jul 21 01:59:13 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 01:59:13 -0000 Subject: The Cockroach Connection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107099 janet wrote: > But I wonder if there isn't something about cockroaches too. How often have we heard about Cockroach Clusters? It's sold at Honeydukes (Fred and George suggest feeding some to Percy and claiming they're peanuts), and I do believe it's used somewhere as a password. > > Potioncat: It could be an ingredient in Wolfsbane Potion. Perhaps that's why Lupin finds cockroaches funny...those little pests help him control the madness. It would explain why we see his Boggart Moon turns into cockroaches then into Neville's Boggart Snape. And why Snape has a jar of them. Or, Lupin's Boggart could be a Prophecy Orb that shatters like the jar of cockroaches..... Potioncat From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 02:05:15 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 02:05:15 -0000 Subject: Fudge: Evil or what? The evil of cowardice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107100 HunterGreen: "In the case of Umbridge, I'd agree with you, if she turned out to be a DE it would be sort of deflating, but there's far more shady about Fudge than him not believing Voldemort has come back." Fudge serves a bigger purpose in JKR's narrative than another closet Death Eater. He stands for every self-interested keep-the-lid-on let's-not-blow-things-out-of-proportion apparatchik who ever assured a town there really aren't sharks in the water off the beach. He's the guy that won't step up to the plate when it comes time to do something. He's Neville Chamberlain. Harry's a man of action, Fudge is a man of inaction. Does that make him evil? You bet it does. HunterGreen: "He takes Hagrid away, mentioning several times that pressure is on him to do *something*. Of course taking Hagrid away won't help anything, and I think he knows that, but he has to at least appear to be trying to solve the problem." Yep. Appearances first. There's people in prison put there by the Fudges of the world. HG:"e has to at least appear to be trying to solve the problem. Then Malfoy comes in with the order to remove Dumbledore, and Fudge does fight against it, so his actions are sort of in the middle here." Half a minute's weak protest does not qualify as "fighting against it." HG, quoting Sirius's escape from Azkaban story: "... I swam as a dog back to the mainland.... I journeyed north and slipped into the Hogwarts grounds as a dog.' Why didn't anyone else escape before if it was that simple? The only thing special he did was turn into a dog, and although his emotions were `different' it wasn't impossible for them to sense him. Wouldn't it have been just as easy for someone else to slip out (during their first few months there, before they are weakened), and just run for it and then swim away or swim far enough to Apparate?" Are you suggesting the only credible explanation for Sirius's escape is that Fudge arranged it? Why is Sirius's story unbelievable? How many unregistered dog Animagi have there been in Azkaban who somehow didn't lose their minds? My first guess: just Sirius. The other flaw in you argument is this: If Fudge is a DE, then he knows that Sirius doesn't actually want to kill Harry; he knows that it's Pettigrew that was the Potters' real enemy. The ESE!Fudge argument fails because it assumes that all evil comes from Voldemort, and it doesn't. Fudge's evil is the evil of cowardice, self-interest, dereliction of duty. It's the evil of the proud "neutrals" who stand aside while Nazism rapes Europe in the 1930's and 1940's. I think that's JKR's intention. Fudge stands as a counterpoint to Dumbledore, and to a lesser extent Harry. He had a clear choice to make, and we see the results of the one he made. Jim Ferer From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 02:12:20 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 02:12:20 -0000 Subject: can a patronus be a person? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107101 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "armadillof" wrote: > Is the patronus capable of being a person or inanimate object? We > have only seen three examples....but if they are the things that > protect you and or save you, and the patronus makes you feel safe > and at peace....wouldn't it make sense if Snape's was a person. I > was thinking wouldn't it be a riot if we discovered that Snape's > patronus was either someone like Lily, James, Dumbledore or even > Harry? snip. Alla: Hi! Even though we did not see the person- patronus yet, I don't remember any specific prohibition against it in canon, so by silence, I choose to believe that it is possible, unless Rowling says otherwise. It was discussed previously that it is possible that Snape's Patronus could be Dumbledore, but I like Lily-Patronus even better. Somehow I doubt that Harry will be Snape's Patronus. :o)Although you never know From owlery2003 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 02:17:15 2004 From: owlery2003 at yahoo.com (Scott Santangelo) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:17:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Will the Slytherins leave Hogwarts ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040721021715.86551.qmail@web60104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107102 del wrote: With LV out in the open . . . The pressure on the Slytherins in particular will become nearly unbearable . . . will we see the day when the Slytherins will decide to leave the school for good, just like old Slytherin did ? And what effects would it have on the remaining students ? Eustace_Scrubb: I suspect that _some_ Slytherins may leave Hogwarts. But for this to parallel the departure of Salazar from the other three founders,wouldn't it mean that _all_ Slytherin students would have to leave and indeed that Slytherin House would cease to exist? owlery2003 comments: We don't really see the "Fred & George" equivalent in Slytherin House, and I think if there's any exodus, it will be generated by parents. There are several possibilities, too, each applicable to those parents who are pro or con to LV: (1)those who feel their children are safer at home; (2)those who feel their children are safer at school. DD could be viewed as a safety factor or a danger magnet. In either case, Hogwarts becomes a front line bastion against LV, which houses DD and HP, two key figures in the anti-LV chess game. With a formidable "army" of house elves and witches/wizards (not to mention the students and the budding DA), surrounded by the Forbidden Forest and protected against all sorts of magical intrusion, it's unlikely LV will attempt an all-out assault in chapter 1. Perhaps Slytherin House will be the "sleeper cell" 5th column for the LV faction parents to infiltrate . . . perfect for Draco. Can't wait to see how it plays out! --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jul 21 02:37:39 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 02:37:39 -0000 Subject: Animagus Snape? Was: Re: Who would love Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107103 Wanderingstar wrote: Snip Snip THREE vulture references - on top of a hat, no less! AND (I don't > know if this should be here, but I think it's relevant) IIRC, in the > film, they actually went through the trouble to get a hat with a > vulture on it for the Boggart Snape to wear after Neville does the > spell! That seems like a lot of trouble for one odd silly prop if it doesn't mean anything. > Potioncat: Good point! Particularly since they did replace the cockroach with a balloon. I thought that was pretty funny! Potioncat (And wasn't Alan Rickman stunning!) From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jul 21 02:42:09 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 02:42:09 -0000 Subject: Will the Slytherins leave Hogwarts ? In-Reply-To: <20040721021715.86551.qmail@web60104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107104 > del wrote: . . . will we see the day when the Slytherins will decide to leave the school for good, just like old Slytherin did ? And what effects would it have on the remaining students ? > > Eustace_Scrubb: I suspect that _some_ Slytherins may leave Hogwarts. snip> > owlery2003 comments: We don't really see the "Fred & George" equivalent in Slytherin House, and I think if there's any exodus, it will be generated by parents. There are several possibilities, too, each applicable to those parents who are pro or con to LV: (1)those who feel their children are safer at home; (2)those who feel their children are safer at school. snip Potioncat: We've also seen the 5th years take OWLS and it might be reasonable for some students to leave now. While we weren't made aware of that before, it could happen this year. I know this is a big what if....what if Crabbe and Goyle leave Hogwarts and Malfoy is forced to spend more time with Nott? From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 02:48:13 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 02:48:13 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's howler, Dumbledore and Petunia, (was Re: New JKR FAQ Poll: Which is significant?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107106 Shannon wrote: That's an interesting idea, and hadn't occurred to me at all. I always thought it was odd that Harry wouldn't have recognized Dumbledore's voice immediately, though I guess it could have sounded very different from the Dumbledore Harry knows. Still, it struck me as odd. And I can't get past the wording of it. It's too unusually worded for me to accept Dumbledore's explanation as the whole story. vmonte responds: I've mentioned this before but what if Dumbledore is a Seer? Maybe we don't recognize his voice because it's his "scary seer voice" (like Trelawny). Maybe this is part of the reason why DD knows so much. Petunia, remember my last prophecy.... vivian From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 02:52:49 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 02:52:49 -0000 Subject: Draco. Was: Re: Will the Slytherins leave Hogwarts ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107107 > Potioncat wrote: > We've also seen the 5th years take OWLS and it might be reasonable > for some students to leave now. While we weren't made aware of that > before, it could happen this year. > > I know this is a big what if....what if Crabbe and Goyle leave > Hogwarts and Malfoy is forced to spend more time with Nott? Alla: Hmmm, Draco becoming less hateful person under Nott's influence? Anything is possible, but somehow I am reluctant to agree. I would love to see subtle changes in Draco's behaviour and views throughout the books- how he slowly abandons his father's values and accepts Light Side, but right now I think it is too late. No, it is not too late for fifteen year old to change, but it is too late for Rowling to write believable tale of Draco's changing. She has to say too much in two last books and my feeling is that Draco is a lost cause for her. From jhnbwmn at hotmail.com Wed Jul 21 03:07:56 2004 From: jhnbwmn at hotmail.com (johnbowman19) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 03:07:56 -0000 Subject: can a patronus be a person? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107108 The closest thing to a person patronus i have ever heard of is a wizard on the chocolate frog game whose patronus was a giant. I cannot remeber which wizard so alittle help would be great. thanks john From vmonte at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 03:09:50 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 03:09:50 -0000 Subject: Harry & Elf Blood ( was Harry & the Fisher King) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107109 Jen wrote: When you talk about 'who is Harry Potter' it makes me wonder again about his blood. And Lily's, Petunia's and Dudley's. Valky, you were in a discussion about those particular characters having Elf blood, which was very interesting (and could explain Petunia's cleaning obssesion!). Now I'm thinking the connection with Godric Gryffindor seems almost a given, a paralle to Riddle's connection with Slytherin through his mother's bloodline. I thought having Gryffindor's blood played a role in saving baby Harry, but Charme's idea of Elf blood is growing on me. vmonte responds: I laughed so hard at your Petunia remark that I almost woke up my son. Sometimes I wonder if Dumbledore is a direct descendant of GG, and that Harry represents the merging of/decendents of Hufflepuff, Gryffindor, and Ravenclaw?! I guess you could also say that he is part Slytherin because of the gifts he received via Voldemort's attack. My vote for being part elf is Luna, with those lovely radish earings. vivian From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jul 21 03:22:56 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 03:22:56 -0000 Subject: Draco. Was: Re: Will the Slytherins leave Hogwarts ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107110 > Alla: > > Hmmm, Draco becoming less hateful person under Nott's influence? > Anything is possible, but somehow I am reluctant to agree. > > I would love to see subtle changes in Draco's behaviour and views > throughout the books- how he slowly abandons his father's values and > accepts Light Side, but right now I think it is too late. > No, it is not too late for fifteen year old to change, but it is too > late for Rowling to write believable tale of Draco's changing. She > has to say too much in two last books and my feeling is that Draco is > a lost cause for her. Potioncat: Oh, I agree. No hope for Draco! I just thought it might be one way to bring Nott and maybe Zabini into the foreground. But for all we know, they are as bad as Draco in their own ways! Something else that has crossed my mind is that some of the characters will be coming of age (17) in the next two books. And that may play into the plot as well. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 03:28:44 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 03:28:44 -0000 Subject: Draco. Was: Re: Will the Slytherins leave Hogwarts ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107111 > Potioncat wrote: > Oh, I agree. No hope for Draco! I just thought it might be one way > to bring Nott and maybe Zabini into the foreground. But for all we > know, they are as bad as Draco in their own ways! > > Something else that has crossed my mind is that some of the > characters will be coming of age (17) in the next two books. And > that may play into the plot as well. Alla: Oh, THAT I want to see, definitely. I don't know whether Zabini and Nott will turn out to be just as bad as Draco, but Nott hopefully will be at least more dimensional character. Coming out of age? you mean that they will be able to use magic freely outside of school? Well, I suppose it means more dangerous fights during the summer From quartierlatin1968 at yahoo.ca Tue Jul 20 23:53:15 2004 From: quartierlatin1968 at yahoo.ca (Owen Cook) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:53:15 -0000 Subject: In defense of considering pureblood preference racism In-Reply-To: <20040720134130.5107.qmail@web90010.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107112 Griffin782002 said: Well, it does sound cruel, but there's no proof that memory charms can cause permanent damage (if we exclude Lockhart :-)) ). But all these charms was the result of wizards not being careful about their actions, like Bagman who was talking all the time about bludgers or snitches. I don't think that anyone was doing that deliberately. The wizards chose to go into hiding. QuartierLatin1968 counters: What you say about memory charms is not at all true: Besides Lockhart, we also know that the charm Crouch Sr put on Bertha Jorkins damaged her memory permanently. He went overboard out of anger and fear, it's true, but that doesn't mean that memory charms aren't dangerous. Unquestionably, there's something very manipulative in the wizard (particularly Ministry) approach to Muggles. The Ministry seems to take the line "We know what's best for Muggles, and it's ignorance". It may be objected that wizards are a vulnerable community with respect to Muggles, and that Ministry manipulation is only for defensive reasons. Fair enough. But if the Ministry only wants to manipulate other beings in its own defence, then why does it also give itself the right to administer the affairs of centaurs, merfolk, elves, and so on, who might all be considered in some sense a vulnerable community with respect to wizards? (For example, those beings and beasts are all forbidden, by *wizarding* law, not their own, to carry wands...) > Griffin782002 again: > > I believe that this is Hagrid's personal opinion. And I believe that first there were the Muggles that turned against the Wizards. But some time ago, this hatred turned the other way round, like the noble members of the Black family, and of course L.V. But I believe that one of the biggest fears of the human mind is the fear of the unknown. QuartierLatin1968: A splendid point. Cheers ~~Owen From Roolover93 at comcast.net Wed Jul 21 00:04:46 2004 From: Roolover93 at comcast.net (Lillian) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 00:04:46 -0000 Subject: Cold case files - The Riddle Case In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107113 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "wickywackywoo2001" wrote: > The more I think of it, the more I believe that the Riddles were > expecting a visitor that night. They didn't expect to be killed, and > they might not have known who their visitor really was, but I think > that they let Tom into the house, and they arranged the meeting for a > time when the servants were out of the way. I'm not absolutely sure > that Tom went there fully intending to kill them, either; I think the > meeting could have been set up for a different purpose, but it got out > of hand and ended up in murder. (Maybe you can tell that I really > enjoy Agatha Christie books!) Hello HP fans! My name is Lillian. I joined the group a few days ago. Before I give you my thoughts on this subject, let me just say how happy I am to have found this group. I have been a member of other HP groups but they had mostly younger people in them and so they were unorganized and very frustrating because they often went off topic. This group is so informative. I love it! Anyway, on to my thought. Maybe Tom got in touch with his father's family and arranged to come and see them that night. I am not sure how much his father knew about the WW, if he knew anything at all about it. He probably didn't know anything about the "genetics" of wizardry (how to know if his child would be a muggle or a wizard). So Tom could have called or written to the family and told them he was interested in getting to know them. If they thought he was a "normal" person they might have been interested in meeting him because they would have wanted an heir. Tom goes there that night to meet the family that shunned him and then he kills them. One other thing... Was this the kind of household that had servants that lived in a servant's quarters in another part of the house or did they have servants that lived in the village and came to the house every day to work? If the servants lived in the village then Tom would have had a lot of time to torture the family and he wouldn't worry about being discovered. I don't know. I have been reading so many HP ideas for the last few days that my head is spinning. I look forward to hearing thoughts on this. Lillian From WanderingStar20 at aol.com Wed Jul 21 00:08:33 2004 From: WanderingStar20 at aol.com (wanderingstar1979) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 00:08:33 -0000 Subject: The Cockroach Connection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107114 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Janet Anderson" > wrote: > > But I wonder if there isn't something about cockroaches too. How > often have we heard about Cockroach Clusters? It's sold at > Honeydukes (Fred and George suggest feeding some to Percy and > claiming they're peanuts), and I do believe it's used somewhere as > a password. You're absolutely right. In OoTP, when Harry and Krum find Crouch by the woods, Harry runs up to Dumbledore's office to get him. He tries to use the password "Sherbet lemon" to get by the gargoyle, but it doesn't move, and frustrated, Harry decides to try the staff room. Snape stops him, on page 557 of the US edition (chapter twenty- eight "The Madness of Mr. Crouch"): "POTTER!" "Harry skidded to a halt and looked around. Snape had just emerged from the hidden staircase behind the stone gargoyle. The wall was sliding shut behind him even as he beckoned Harry back toward him." In the next chapter, Harry decides to go to see Dumbledore after his scar hurts him in Divination class. He again tries "Sherbet lemon" as a password, which of course doesn't work, and then tries just about every other candy he can think of, until, on page 579 of the US edition (chapter twenty-nine "The Dream"): "Chocolate Frog! He yelled angrily, standing on one leg. "Sugar quill! Cockroach cluster!" The gargoyle sprang to life and jumped aside. Harry blinked. "Cockroach cluster?" he said, amazed. "I was only joking...." Between chapter twenty-eight and chapter twenty-nine, JKR doesn't tell us about anyone entering or leaving Dumbledore's office. Of course, this doesn't mean it doesn't happen, just that we (the dear readers) don't get told about it. Naturally, one would assume that Dumbledore enters and leaves his own office quite frequently. The point I'm attempting to make, I suppose, is that the last person we see/read about leaving Dumbledore's office (other than the can-be- assumed Dumbledore) is Snape, and then the next password that is used to get into Dumbledore's office is "Cockroach Cluster." Probably nothing more than a S-T-R-E-T-C-H-E-D coincidence, but ... that's the way my mind words. :-) WanderingStar1979, who can't believe she is dissecting this book like Faulkner. From snow15145 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 03:39:19 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 03:39:19 -0000 Subject: Fudge: Evil or what??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107115 HunterGreen: >snipped a lot< Also, he appears to be at the VERY least, mildly prejudice. He makes comments about both Hagrid and Madam Maxine being half-giants, AND comments about Lupin and his werewolf-ness during his argument with Dumbledore in GoF. And then Dumbledore accuses him of being blinded by his love of power and that he places too much importance on blood- purity, a charge that Fudge doesn't dispute. And Dumbledore says this shortly after Dumbledore was 'staring hard at Fudge, as though seeing him plainly for the first time.'. Snow: This statement spurred my thought processes the most; Dumbledore plainly sees Fudge for the first time. Dumbledore is adept at legilimency so by this statement that he was "staring hard at Fudge" we can assume that he saw his true self-serving attributes. Dumbledore from this point on realizes that the Ministry, whom is directed by Fudge, is beyond being helpful and takes the necessary steps to avoid confrontation. Dumbledore orders full night and day protection for Harry over the summer to compensate for the failing government. This reminded me of the following statement by Harry who feels the government would surely support him: OOP pg. 22 "But I was getting rid of dementors, I had to use magic- they're going to be more worried what dememtors were doing floating around Wisteria Walk, surely?" "Oh my dear, I wish it were so but I'm afraid- " Shouldn't the government have acted exactly the way Harry expected it to act, concerned more with public safety from stray dementors than the illegal use of magic in front of muggles? Yes, it should have, but wouldn't this cause a panic? We wouldn't want a Panic Outbreak even in the real world. So the government justifies their behavior by saying that without "sufficient" cause to alert the general public to a possible threat they could not be held accountable due to insufficient evidence. Doesn't Fudge make a great politician! He sits on both sides of the fence but when push comes to shove he will do what he thinks the majority favors. It is in his best political interest to side this way based on the evidence submitted. I don't see Fudge as anything more than a self-serving politician. The majority of all people like the stasis quo and do not wish to accept a huge threat on their way of life until it is forced on them. The majority of Harry's classmates would not accept the same inevitability that their very lives and way of life was possibly being threatened. Choices everyone has one! From tred2 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 00:40:32 2004 From: tred2 at yahoo.com (Dawn) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 00:40:32 -0000 Subject: Snape a vampire? (was Snape's Patronus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107116 luckdragon64: > > Maybe I'm way off base, but I've always thought Snape to be > very "Battish". I lean towards the Snape is a vampire theory and > that his patronus or animagus would be a bat. The way he drapes his > cloak around him, always seems to roam around the school at night, > prefers teaching in a dark dungeon and is never seen eating. Perhaps > this is why J.K. Rowling said she would not want to have dinner with > Snape. The main loop in my theory is that Snape does go outdoors in > daylight, however if he was able to make a potion to prevent Lupin > turning into a werewolf maybe he also has a potion for his vampire > tendencies. I have wondered about this theory as well. He did eat something in the first *movie* when he was talking to Quirrel (unless there was something besides food in his mouth) - but I'm assuming we're talking about the books. Being the potions master, he very well could make a potion to prevent the sun from affecting him (the wolfsbane didn't prevent Lupin's transformations, just made him likely to "sleep it off" and be more docile...or am I totally screwed up here?) If Snape were a vampire, though, I would think he would be more sympathetic to Lupin. What are the characteristics of JKR's vampires, anyway? Does anyone know??? That would help to formulate my opinion! Oh, and I totally agree with you on the bat thing. Or perhaps some other cunning bird. Good thread. -nadjjaa From Roolover93 at comcast.net Wed Jul 21 00:56:08 2004 From: Roolover93 at comcast.net (Lillian) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 00:56:08 -0000 Subject: Names and their meanings... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107117 I was just doing some research online about CoS and I found something interesting. I was looking for a list of all the characters in the book. I found a website called SparkNotes. SparkNotes are like CliffsNotes. A summary of a book that mostly teens use so they don't have to actually read a book for school. Anywho... I went to a section entitled: Themes, Motifs, and Symbols. They had a section about some of the names in the book. They talked about the origins of Dumbledore's name and of Lucius Malfoy's name. The one that interested me though was what they had to say about Gilderoy Lockhart's name. They said that Lockhart's name describes his locked heart, or secret identity. I am wondering if that is significant. I think that a lot of people, myself included, wrote off Lockhart as being a fool and a liar. I can tell you that I didn't like him at all and was kind of glad that he lost his memory at the end of CoS. In OOtP we see him at St. Mungo's and see that he hasn't recovered all of his memory. He is still signing autographs but I don't think he knows why he is. I believe that in a J.K.R. interview she said that we would be seeing him again, although she may have been talking about when we see him in book 5. I don't know if this means anything or not but I thought it was interesting. What secrets could he be hiding? Any thoughts? I hope that this hasn't already been covered. I have been trying to read all the old posts but there are quite a few. Lillian From cincimaelder at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 00:49:00 2004 From: cincimaelder at yahoo.com (cincimaelder) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 00:49:00 -0000 Subject: Wand Questions In-Reply-To: <40FD30C8.6050406@rogers.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107118 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Sheri wrote: > Sorry if this has been discussed before but I can't figure it out. If > the wand chooses the wizard, why can Ron and Neville use another > person's wand? Also, since Ron had been using Charlie's old one, what > reason would Charlie have for getting the new one? Was it ever implied > in the books that you can have more than one wand? My opinion on this is that nothing is more comfortable (or powerful) than your own wand. I think of it like a baseball mitt. You can borrow someone elses, or get an hand-me-down, but you do best with your own mitt. You are at your most powerful with the wand that chooses you. MAE From sad1199 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 01:06:42 2004 From: sad1199 at yahoo.com (sad1199) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 01:06:42 -0000 Subject: Snape's greasy hair Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107119 sad1199 says: In the world of hair, greasy and oily mean the same thing. It kind of depends on where you live. Like, where I live we say 'soda' and where my ex lives they say 'pop'. Also, JKR is what is called a definitve descriptive writer. Which means that her descriptions are very definite and unchanging. 1. Harry's untidy hair and glasses. 2. Hermione's bushy hair. 3. Ron's red hair and slightly squashed nose. 4. Crookshanks' ginger color. She uses the same words to define her characters so that is how you think of them immediately. If someone says to you Harry Potter, you think young wizard with glasses and black untidy hair. When you think of Snape, it's the same thing only dark, greasy hair. This gives Harry young hero appeal and Snape not so nice appeal. I don't think that her description of Snape's hair has anything other than that to do with his character. Like, I have said before, he might resent Harry being his father's son but he has held true for him since the story started. As for being a spy, he's loyalties obviously lie with Dumbledore and Harry as he had has many opportunities to use his position and knowledge against them. Such as, he made the werewolf potion for Remus because Dumbledore told/asked him to. One more thing could someone please tell me where it is written that Snape is friends with Lucious Malfoy? I need to read that again. sad1199 From mhbobbin at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 01:54:14 2004 From: mhbobbin at yahoo.com (mhbobbin) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 01:54:14 -0000 Subject: ESE Fudge Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107120 HunterGreen wrote: snip PoA, though, is where he gets sort of suspicious. snip. This starts with Sirius' escape from Azkaban...Now, of course, there's the issue of motive, why would Fudge want to let Sirius Black escape. If he wanted to kill Harry, that would be the easiest way to do it. Perhaps after hearing that Black has been talking in his sleep for a time, Fudge has an idea. snip. mhbobbin writes: Starts even before Sirius' escape and the talking in the sleep bit. Supporting the ESE Fudge theory that you detail , is also that Fudge gives to Black the very newspaper with the picture of the Weasleys and Scabbers vacationing in Egypt. This is the trigger that pushes Sirius into escaping. Fudge does not know that Scabbers is Peter Pettigrew. Or does he? According to Fudge, Black asks to see the newspaper and Fudge comments that Black seemed sane. Why is it that Fudge turns up so often in the Peter Pettigrew / Sirius Black conflict? Coincidence? We don't know where Percy got Scabbers yet...but could he have been given to the Weasleys by Fudge? And it is Fudge's comments at the Three Broomsticks, in front of Harry's friends (and Harry too although Fudge might not know this) that further complicates the story. Fudge just can't keep his mouth shut about the inside story. Does he tell this to Hagrid, Flitwick, McGonnagall etc thinking it might get back to Harry, and Harry will behave recklessly? Very suspicious. And put together with Fudge being one of the first on the scene after the Pettigrew / Black duel. A duel--per Sirius-- that Sirius lost because little Peter had his wand behind his back. In other words, Sirius didn't see the wand--did Sirius know what really happened? Doubtful. I'm not convinced that Fudge was a Death Eater. He may just be out for his own power, a bumbling politician. But he sure turns up in strategic places in the Sirius /Pettigrew mystery and we know there aren't many true coincidences in JKR's world. mhbobbin From maritajan at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 01:52:49 2004 From: maritajan at yahoo.com (Marita Bush) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 01:52:49 -0000 Subject: New JKR FAQ Poll: Which is significant? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107121 > --boyd > who'd like to hear more about ex-Marauder Wormtail than Percy the git > or the Dullsleys Although I voted to find out what DD meant by his howler to Petunia, I really REALLY want to know more about Percy.....I can just wait on that. I'm convinced there's more going on with him -- and more to come from him -- than we expect. After reading JKR talking about more clues in CoS, I went back and re- read the book. Unlike my first couple of readings, I was struck by several comments about Percy. He's reading "Prefects who Gained Power." Draco tells Ron & Harry (aka Crabbe and Goyle) that he's seen Percy sneaking around the dungeons alot. Ginny is, by turns, terrified and/or very nervous around him, more so than I think she would be just because she caught him making out with his girlfriend. And it seems to be worse the deeper she gets into TR's control. Percy's own reactions to events is suspicious. In GoF, Ron tells Hermy that he thinks Percy would turn one of his own family members over to the Dementors if that person was standing in the way of Percy's career. Something is going to happen with Percy. What, I don't know. But something. MJ From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 03:59:25 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 03:59:25 -0000 Subject: JKR's narrative strategy (Was: Whose point of view ?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107122 I (Carol) wrote: It's important to distinguish among different types of narrative strategies because they affect our interaction with and understanding of the characters > > But a limited omniscient character can sometimes use a character other than the protagonist (e.g. Vernon Dursley in SS/PS chapter one) or report events without revealing the thoughts of any characters > adi responded: > I agree with what you most of the time but I have some problem with this 'limited' omniscient view. How come JKR'S view is limited? After all she is the creator, she knows everything about these characters that is there to know and what she doesn't know doesn't exist either, the world she created doesn't exist outside her, independently. So > how come her omniscience is 'limited'? It's complete and total. Adi, who is somewhat petrified by carol's technical mastery > Carol responds: I didn't invent the term "limited omniscient." It's a technical term from literary criticism. The first step in understanding it is to distinguish between the author, who creates the story and is therefore "omniscient" regarding it, and the narrator, the voice she uses to tell the story. An author chooses a narrator (or narrative strategy) as he or she chooses the names of the characters or the color of their hair, but the narrator is much more important because it involves the way the story is told, both the voice and the perspective. The second step is to understand that a narrator can be fully omniscient (in essence, the author's own voice or an aspect of the author's personality) or partly omniscient--able to enter some character's minds but not others. The idea is that the author can *choose* to limit the narrator's omniscience, as JKR has done. If she had chosen a fully omniscient narrator, we would know Peter Pettigrew's thoughts or Dudley's or anyone else's that the author wanted to reveal. But by choosing a *limited* omniscient narrator, she deliberately limits us to the perspective of a few chosen characters, usually but not always Harry, and the character's perspective shapes the way we interpret the action. She can also choose to change the narrative perspective to one in which there's no POV character, as she does in the Godric's Hollow scene or parts of SS/PS chapter 1. Most of the time, she *chooses* to limit both the narrator and the reader to Harry's perspective, which, as I said in my original post, has advantages and disadvantages. Technically, the narrator of the Little Hangleton scene in GoF is an objective narrator, who reports the action or historical background without entering any character's mind, but it's simpler to think of it as the same limited omniscient narrator who has stepped for the moment outside Harry's POV. (The narrative voice is different--more distant and authoritative. I imagine she'll use this perspective for the epilogue that wraps up the lives of the surviving characters in Book 7.) Why didn't JKR choose this narrative strategy throughout the book? Why not have the narrator know and reveal everything? In part, it's to maintain the mystery in every book. In part, it's so we learn along with Harry who he is and what his powers are. In part, it's to conceal the motives of the other characters from us. (Think how different Snape would be if we knew where he went and what he did at the end of GoF, or if we entered his thoughts when he confronted Harry about the Marauders' Map in PoA.) In part, having the narrator's perspective filtered through Harry (most of the time) brings us closer to Harry. Would we care about him as much if the whole story were told the way chapter 1 of GoF is? I don't think we would. And think how different it would be as well if the narrator were Harry (first-person participant point of view) and he were telling his own story like Jane Eyre or David Copperfield. maybe we would be as close to him as we are to them (if we like them), but it would be a different sort of closeness. Anyway, the point is simply that the narrator is not the author, and JKR, as author, has chosen to limit her narrator's omniscience. Carol, who used to teach composition and literature to college students and enjoys putting her PhD to use again! From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 04:40:56 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 04:40:56 -0000 Subject: Why didn't Severus reveal the Prank? (Was: How did Sirius lure Severus...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107123 > Carol wrote: > I think Neri is on the right track here, but I would add that > Severus' fear of humiliation is probably the crucial factor. I think > Dumbledore probably pointed out to Severus that if he revealed what > he knew, not only would the whole school (and probably the WW) know > that he had been tricked by Sirius Black, they would know that his > life had been saved by the even-more-hated James Potter, to whom he > now owed a life debt. > > Carol, waiting to hear from Kneasy and Neri on the humiliation portion of this theory. > > > Neri: > I find these back-and-forth Snape debates rather tedious and > pointless, but if asked for my opinion I have no problem supplying > it ;-) I think the humiliation part probably played a part here, but > I don't think it was a central part. IMO it's a question of whom do > you believe. We are given here two very different stories regarding > Snape's feelings about the "prank", James and Harry: > > These two stories certainly don't agree. They can be reconciled in > the level of the details, perhaps, but not in the level of Snape's > feelings and motives. DD says Snape feels he is in debt to James even > 10 years after James' death. According to Snape's story, he believes > it was James "and his friends" who played the joke on him in the > first place. He doesn't even mention Sirius' name. According to Snape > it was James' fault from the beginning, and James just got cold feet > and was saving his own skin. If you believe this story, or even if > you just believe that Snape believes it, there is no reason for Snape > to feel in debt to James. Carol responds: Okay, you responded to the life debt portion of my post. But what I was trying to focus on was the humiliation of owing James a life debt as the reason why the young Severus didn't reveal the Prank (or Remus' being a werewolf). You know, the question Kneasy was asking. Carol, waiting for Kneasy's response now but asking him to go up thread first :-) > From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 05:28:47 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 05:28:47 -0000 Subject: Patronus at DADA OWL (was Re: Harry's Future...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107124 Steve (Asian_lovr2) wrote: > > I wasn't extra points, it was ONE extra point ("For A bonus point..."), and in my reading it was implied that this was a token point. That one point one way or the other was not enough to sway his grade. And, increasing Harry's by one point, doesn't diminish the value of other students grades. I assume grades are not on a 'curve', but are set to absolute boundaries. > > That said, I really wanted Harry leap to his feet and say, "Yeh, I can but I'm not the only one. Hey, Ernie; show them your Patronus!" > > Then proceed to have every available member of the DA cast a Patronus just to rub Umbridge's nose in it. Carol responds: But there's one crucial difference between Harry's corporeal Patronus and everyone else's: he can produce it in the face of a real Dementor. The others didn't even have boggarts to practice on (that wouldn't work even if they had individual boggarts because no one else's boggart is a Dementor). They've only cast them at each other, almost in play. I think Harry deserved his bonus point--and more--and I see no need to share that little moment of pride and pleasure with Ernie or anyone else. Carol From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 21 05:49:23 2004 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 06:49:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Alchemy in HP and Stoned!Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040721054923.17149.qmail@web25102.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107125 --- Dicentra spectabilis wrote: --------------------------------- Waaaaay back in post 38511, before John Granger's article and OoP were available, we had some fun with our limited alchemical knowledge. In a nutshell, we determined that the reason Voldemort's AK rebounded was that Harry is the living embodiment of the Philosopher's Stone. [...] Anyway, I recommend the Stoned!Harry thread for the sheer fun of it (not just because I'm in it). --Dicentra Hans writes: I totally agree that Harry is the living embodiment of the Philosopher's Stone. William Truderung compiled a condensed version of all the Stoned!Harry posts. It's 56099 and consists of 15 000 words. Saves a lot of searching! Thanks again Bill. I haven't commented on the Stoned!Harry theory because it just seems so obvious. I have often said this in a different way. Harry symbolises the immortal part of us. Deep in the heart is that seed of the causeless cause which transcends time and space and is waiting for us to dedicate our lives totally to it. In the soil of purity (Lily) and deep longing for the Water of Life (James) it will grow in grace in the sight of men and God. The evil in us and in the world around us (Herod, Voldemort) will seek to destroy it but what the Architect of the Universe has made is indestructible. I would really love to see some more discussion on this. Hans in Holland ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Wed Jul 21 06:13:22 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 21 Jul 2004 06:13:22 -0000 Subject: Peter/GoF Mystery and Nagini Message-ID: <20040721061322.26004.qmail@webmail6.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107126 - "doddiemoemoe" - I still have the feeling that Peter felt he paid his life dept to - Harry by not informing Voldemort that Harry had been bitten by that - spider in the maze--more than Dumbledore's gleam which we assume - means Voldemort is once again mortal....the spider venom in Harrys - blood would me that he is also poisoned..Not only this, but he is - poisoned by the "nemisis"(sider) of the Basilisk (serpent). Amey: Spiders flee before basilisk, they are not nemesis of basilisk. They are so afraid of him that Aragog even doesn?t mention his name (like Creature Voldemort, as Harry says). But I can?t say anything about the spider venom. I think it won?t matter unless there is a basilisk nearby, which I doubt. And as for Peter feeling that he has paid life debt, how did he know spider had bitten Harry? He was not there in the Maze. - Becki; - I am fortunate enough to have both American and UK versions, but I can't find which printing, and they differ in this scene. - American GoF, HB, p10; (using the sentence prior too) "...and if we proceed, if I murder-" - The following sentence uses "died". - UK GF (Paperback) p.15 "...and if we proceed, if I curse-" - The following sentence uses "disappeared". - I wonder how many different wordings there are to this mystery. - Becki - Asian_lovr2: - Indeed there is a difference between the US and UK edition. As well as - the change from 'disappeared' to 'died', I believe the UK edition says - '...one more curse' whereas the US edition says '...one more death'. - I suspect the US editors thought it was referring to Harry, when it - was actually referring to Barty Crouch Sr. Amey: UK edition makes much more sense to me. But even in US edition, it can?t be Harry they meant, because LV means that that one curse/death will make way to Harry clear. So I think that is Crouch Sr. - Saraquel: - 3) Why have a Nagini? Amey: In Hindu Mythology, *Nag* are the magical race of snakes. They possess some very powerful magic and may live for thousands of years(some are immortal). They are alternatively associated with black magic and white magic. So I think, Nagini is one of the Nagas and her venom is the thing which keeps LV in the current form. It is something like Unicorn blood in that respect. I will give more informationa about Nagas afterwards. Amey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From patientx3 at aol.com Wed Jul 21 06:21:14 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 06:21:14 -0000 Subject: Fudge: Evil or what? The evil of cowardice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107127 Jim Ferer wrote: >> Are you suggesting the only credible explanation for Sirius's escape is that Fudge arranged it? Why is Sirius's story unbelievable? How many unregistered dog Animagi have there been in Azkaban who somehow didn't lose their minds? My first guess: just Sirius. << HunterGreen: No, I'm not suggesting that. Sirius escaped after thirteen years, so it was *needed* that he have a reason that he didn't lose his mind. Another person sentenced to life in Azkaban could break out say, their first day and not have lost their mind yet. AND, I don't really see why it was *necessary* for him to be an animagus for his plan to work. All he did was slip through the bars and take off, they were *confused* by his animal emotions, but not altogether mystified by them. Its not *necessary* that he have been helped by someone, just that there is enough shaky in his explanation that it wouldn't be surprising (to me anyway) to find out later on that someone had (against his knowledge) helped him. >> The other flaw in you argument is this: If Fudge is a DE, then he knows that Sirius doesn't actually want to kill Harry; he knows that it's Pettigrew that was the Potters' real enemy. << I don't think that Fudge is a DE at all. I see him as being more 'sympathetic to their cause', meaning that he doesn't report to Voldemort, but assists on his own terms. Besides, by your argument Snape ought to have known that Sirius wasn't a DE. The death eaters usually wear masks, and when it comes to certain spy members, its very possible that Voldemort protects their identities more than the others. Even if he knew that Sirius wasn't a DE, he *didn't* know that it was Peter who killed all the muggles and that Peter was alive. Only Sirius knew that. He could have thought that Sirius was a completely deranged and dangerous non-DE (evil doesn't always mean 'death-eater'). Again, I don't think he's evil because of his actions at OotP at all. I think there's evidence that the dementers are out to get Harry in PoA, and Fudge is the most likely to have put them up to it. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 06:46:40 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 06:46:40 -0000 Subject: Cousins by marriage ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107128 Ravenclaw Bookworm: > In theory, Molly and Sirius could be "cousins by marriage" if > Molly's cousin married Sirius' cousin. There would be no blood > relation between Molly and Sirius. In practice, however, you may be > right. > Carol responds: Or maybe "cousin by marriage" equals "cousin in law." IOW, a man is your brother by marriage (brother-in-law) if he marries your sister; a man or woman who marries your cousin would be your cousin by marriage. So Molly would be Sirius' "cousin by marriage" simply by marrying Arthur, Sirius' distant cousin. There would be no blood rellationship between Molly and Sirius either way. If Molly's cousin married Sirius' cousin, his cousin would have to be on his mother's side of the family unless Molly's cousin is Lucius Malfoy, Rodolphus Lestrange, or Ted Tonks. (I know that Sirius's mother's painting screams about "her" family, but unless she was also a Black before her marriage, the Black sisters are her husband's relatives, not hers.) Carol, who apologizes for coming in late on this thread and hopes she hasn't duplicated anybody's post. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 05:19:44 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 05:19:44 -0000 Subject: Still wondering why Snape trusts DD! (was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: <200407150216.59174.silmariel@telefonica.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107129 Carolina asked: Just a question, do you think occlumency is basic or advanced DE training or > was acquired before joining the merry party? Carol responds: It can't be DE training at all or Voldemort's legilimency would be useless as a means of controlling his DEs. Moreover, he can't know that Snape is an occlumens or Snape would be unable to spy on him or observe him or attend meetings (whatever he's doing) without giving himself away. Occlumency isn't *basic* anything: it's evidently a very rare skill that no one except Snape or Dumbledore is capable of teaching Harry. (Voldemort, OTOH, teaches his DEs--or some of them-- how to cast Unforgiveable Curses. Otherwise, he probably takes advantage of skills they already have, such as potion making. But Snape would be an utter fool to let Voldemort or any of the DEs know that he's an occlumens, and Snape, whatever his faults, is far from a fool.) My guess is that Dumbledore taught occlumency to Snape when Snape first began spying for him. Someone said in another post that this was *just* before Voldemort's fall. I don't think so, since the young Snape (about 21 at the time) was spying on Dumbledore "at great personal risk," suggesting that he did so more than once and possibly for a prolonged period--possibly about the same length of time (approximately a year) that Peter was spying for Voldemort. I think that he learned occlumency during this period, when it was crucial for his survival. No canon, of course, but it makes sense to me. Carol From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 09:05:30 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 09:05:30 -0000 Subject: Fudge: Evil or what? The evil of cowardice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107130 HunterGreen: "> Again, I don't think he's evil because of his actions at OotP at all. I think there's evidence that the dementers are out to get Harry in PoA, and Fudge is the most likely to have put them up to it." I have to disagree here, too. It's probable that the Dementors have been in communication with Voldemort for some time, and it's his will being done here; and the Dementors may have their own agenda as well. I don't think Fudge developed his ill will towards Harry until Harry started disturbing his life in the second half of PoA. I wouuld love to see how Fudge - or Umbridge, for that matter - communicates with the Dementors. And I thought I get depressed talking to my ex. Jim Ferer From vheggie at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 09:14:49 2004 From: vheggie at yahoo.com (Vanessa) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 09:14:49 -0000 Subject: Cold case files - The Riddle Case In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107131 wickywackywoo2001 wrote: >The Riddles had servants, at least 3: a cook, a maid, and Frank >the gardener. This was either during the last year or two of WWII >(Frank had been injured and returned home) or shortly after. Now, I >thought that WWII really brought to a close the "Upstairs, >Downstairs" >kind of life of a family with domestic servants. Yet the Riddles >still employed a staff, so it seems to me they must have been QUITE >rich. It's the cook that gives it away. Even now, amongst wealthier middle class families, it's not unusual to have a maid/cleaning lady who comes in once or twice a week to go over the house, and a *lot* of people with large gardens or grounds would employ a gardener at least part-time. The cook is much more unusual, and certainly suggests they were a relatively wealthy family. >2. The maid found them in the morning, in the drawing room, still >dressed in their dinner clothes. So they still followed the >old-fashioned tradition of dressing for dinner. Does anyone know >about what time dinner would have been served in that era? And what >was the usual pattern: people would dress, then go down and eat >dinner, then...go to the drawing room? Was that normal? Or would >they go out, or go to bed? Would one change clothes again after >dinner, or stay in the same clothes until bedtime? Was the drawing >room like a family room, where a family normally would gather after >dinner, or was it the "best" room, for entertaining guests? Firstly; dressing for dinner is, even right now, not that unusual amongst wealthier families. I certainly knew a few people who did it, and even not so well off families who did it "for show". In the late 40s and early 50s, dinner would be served around, say 7pm. There would be no need to change clothes after dinner, unless something special was happening ? you were going out or receiving guests for cocktails etc. It's also perfectly normal for the family to retire to the drawing room; it would probably have been a room for entertaining, with a piano, card table, drinks cabinet, and so on. It would be odd for "the family" to retire there with children, but not odd at all given that they were all adults, and two were male. It's possible, as someone has suggested to dismiss the servants at any time. Chances are the cook would already have gone "off duty" unless there was to be a supper later on, and the maid could have been told to clear up and go to bed after dinner. Of course, this is all "in theory" ? I think it's important to remember that if JKR wants them to have an early dinner at 3pm, that could be what happened. Equally, we could argue that perhaps they were expecting Tom, didn't want the servants to see him, and thus took dinner really early and packed all the servants off to the cinema for the night! We just don't know. Nothing she's written is so unusual that it draws the attention, however. >5. Is it just accidental that the cook says that Frank could have >crept into the house "while we was all sleeping..."? Is "we" the >servants, or the village? Did the servants sleep in the house, or >did they come and go every day? If they were IN the house, then >three murders took place without anyone hearing any disturbance. >The cook assumes it's because they were all asleep, but why were all >3 Riddles up so late, fully dressed, in the drawing room instead of >going to bed like the rest of the household? Did they have an >appointment, perhaps? Firstly, it's not unusual, given that the household `only' has three servants, for them to go to bed before the family. In the super- rich, super-servanted households (I'm sure that's not a word!) you might expect ladies' maids to assist with undressing and preparing beds, and butlers (etc) to deal with drinks; possibly also an undercook to prepare a cold cut supper, or suchlike. But since they don't exist, the pattern of sending servants to bed (or at least, telling them they're dismissed) wouldn't be at all unusual. Frankly, if I were the one who had to get up at 6am to heat the stove and make coffee, I'd go to bed early too, even if the family were still up drinking and smoking cigars at 11pm. Equally, it's unlikely that the servant quarters were situated close to the living areas of the family; more likely they were attic rooms, or rooms on the lower floor near the kitchen and scullery; mostly because, after all, one would not want the servants overhearing one's conversation! Although the cook suggests it happened while "we was all sleeping", that doesn't even indicate that the Riddles were up particularly late, it just means that the family had no interaction with the servants after dinner, which is quite normal. They may well have been murdered early in the evening, after the cook and maid had been dismissed, and were, say, sorting out the washing up (I'm sure all that clinking of saucepans and plates would have covered up any suspicious noises). The problem with this sort of enquiry is that it's a scenario well within the bounds of tradition or stereotype, and there are a *million* different explanations, all of which are quite, quite plausible. I mean, let's face it; the servants could have seen absolutely everything, and then just had their memories altered by Riddle afterwards. Or he could have put them into a state of unconsciousness. Or the family knew he was coming and waited up long after the servants had gone to bed. Or they could have been in the habit of staying up late anyway. Or they just happened to have dinner early that day. Or the cook was tired and the maid was out and about in town with her "boyfriend". Or she was sick. Or... it's just endless! From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Jul 21 08:47:24 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 08:47:24 -0000 Subject: Why didn't Severus reveal the Prank? (Was: How did Sirius lure Severus...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107132 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > > Carol, waiting for Kneasy's response now but asking him to go up > thread first :-) > > Hellish busy in the Real World, so can't respond with usual frequency. Humiliation? Why would Snape feel humiliated? Being tricked into the lair of a ravening beast is not an April Fool practical joke after which you're ribbed by classmates. If anything the majority of the school would be more liable to express shock, horror and sympathy. A sort of rough parallel can be drawn with Harry and Ron ending up as potential sushi for Aragog's tribe - they had been given information that put them in great danger, but they didn't realise it until too late. What's the essential difference between "Follow the spiders and you'll find the answer," and "Go down that tunnel and you'll get the answer." The intent of the speaker, that's all. One forgets the potential for disaster, the other dismisses it, thinking only to score points off some-one he dislikes. Nasty piece of work, Sirius. And anyway Snape could salve his injured feelings by getting Sirius, Lupin and possibly DD thrown out of the school. He'd feel a lot better after that. And I don't go along with the 'life debt' theory. IMO this is more of DD's flim-flam, said to allow Harry to rationalise his antipathy towards Snape, to bolster James's image and to conceal Snape's real job - keeping an eye on young Potter and if possible keep him out of trouble. Certainly Snape gives no indication of feeling any obligation towards James - he says that James was just interested in saving his own skin and those of his friends. His view is understandable. Why did James go into the tunnel? To save Snape or to save Sirius and Lupin? The latter I think. Saving Snape was the means of achieving the former. Kneasy From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jul 21 11:09:02 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:09:02 -0000 Subject: Draco. Was: Re: Will the Slytherins leave Hogwarts ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107133 Alla wrote: > > Coming out of age? you mean that they will be able to use magic > freely outside of school? > > Well, I suppose it means more dangerous fights during the summer Potioncat: I'm assuming that at 17, most kids are still in school and whether "of age" or not, they are still pretty much still under their parents "guidence."...but on the other hand, they can decide to leave school, join evil organizations...etc, etc.... Given that 4th, and 5th year students were fighting in this book, the age factor may not play into this at all. Potioncat From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 11:19:49 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:19:49 -0000 Subject: Will the Slytherins leave Hogwarts ? In-Reply-To: <20040721021715.86551.qmail@web60104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107134 Del:" With LV out in the open . . . The pressure on the Slytherins in particular will become nearly unbearable . . . will we see the day when the Slytherins will decide to leave the school for good, just like old Slytherin did ? And what effects would it have on the remaining students ?" Owlery: "DD could be viewed as a safety factor or a danger magnet. In either case, Hogwarts becomes a front line bastion against LV, which houses DD and HP, two key figures in the anti-LV chess game. With a formidable "army" of house elves and witches/wizards (not to mention the students and the budding DA), surrounded by the Forbidden Forest and protected against all sorts of magical intrusion, it's unlikely LV will attempt an all-out assault in chapter 1." I agree >From a narrative standpoint, JKR would obviously want the Slytherins in school; what would life be without Draco and the Knuckles Twins, assuming they've stopped oozing? >From Dumbledore's point of view, I'm sure he'd want to keep the Slytherins in school. 1) Some of them may turn towards the good side, 2)Dumbledore will believe (and I think he's right) that they're safer there, 3) They'll continue to get their education, which is important to Dumbledore, 4) DD is likely to get a lot of intelligence one way and another, and 5) "You keep your friends close and your enemies closer." Dumbledore is not a judgmental man, and he will treat the Slytherins as though nothing happened. I guess, without having a strong opinion about it, that most of the Slytherin parents would keep their children in. Some of them would be afraid that withdrawing their children would be taken as declaring for Voldemort, some will feel their children are safer in school, and some will hope in their turn for intelligence about what's going on in the center of resistance to Voldemort. As far as assaulting Hogwarts goes, LV certainly won't early in HBP, and likely not ever in HBP. He was weakened by the MoM debacle; how much strength does he have now? We don't know. Voldemort is going to go after Harry through his friends, I believe, and it will be very ugly. Jim Ferer From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jul 21 11:22:29 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:22:29 -0000 Subject: Snape a vampire? (was Snape's Patronus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107135 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dawn" wrote: > luckdragon64: > > > > Maybe I'm way off base, but I've always thought Snape to be > > very "Battish". I lean towards the Snape is a vampire theory and > > that his patronus or animagus would be a bat. The way he drapes his > > cloak around him, always seems to roam around the school at night, > > prefers teaching in a dark dungeon and is never seen eating. >> > Dawn: > I have wondered about this theory as well. He did eat something in > the first *movie* when he was talking to Quirrel (unless there was > something besides food in his mouth) - but I'm assuming we're talking > about the books. Potioncat: Snape is mentioned at meals several times, but he's never mentioned as not eating. The only comment I can think of is that Ron says Snape never eats at 12 Grimmauld Place. However, it seems to me there are a lot of people who don't eat at HQ. Of course, JKR probably pointed it out for a reason. Maybe he thinks the place is too dirty with Dark Magic. Maybe it's because he doesn't want to eat with Black.... From xmezumiiru at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 11:31:05 2004 From: xmezumiiru at yahoo.com (An'nai Jiriki) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 04:31:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Roaches Was: Animagus Snape? Was: Re: Who would love Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040721113105.64859.qmail@web12203.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107136 WanderingStar wrote: Oh yes, and since I too was very curious about what Potioncat brought up about cockroaches (who DOES think cockroaches are funny?) I wondered if wolves eat cockroaches. I couldn't find anything that says they do. Also, why (as Potioncat brought up) does Snape keep a jar of these in his office, when (according to the Harry Potter lexicon) they are not used in any spells? All the Lexicon says about "cockroaches, dead" is that: "Snape keeps a jar of these in his office"?? Well, here is what I found out about what animals can eat cockroaches: "Unfortunately, cockroaches have a chemical defense that makes puppies and kittens throw them up. Other animals that do eat cockroaches include scorpions, wasps, toads, hedgehogs, and BIRDS, which probably led to the evolution of their instinct to hide out of sight." (http://www.anglophile.ucpress.edu/books/pages/8778/roaches.html) Now, I don't know if this means puppies and kittens can't eat dead cockroaches as well, but it definitely means that birds eat cockroaches, probably live and dead, lending more canon evidence to the theory that Snape could be a bird animagus. Why else would he have dead cockroaches, unless there is some kind of potion we haven't learned about? Of course that is possible, but still, more food (literally, since they would be bird animagus snacks) for thought. Me: I know this is a little off, but when working as an intern in an environmental lab, we had a pest proceedure. The top of the list was roaches and spiders. It was stated that if web got into the chemicals (provided the chemicals didn't kill the spider) then the top layer of chemical be discarded. If a roach was found in, or even suspected in the chemicals, then we throw the whole vat away. As it turns out, roaches emit a chemical that breaks down simple chemical bonds quite readily (I don't know what). This is probably one of the reasons little animals get sick if they eat roaches: H2SO4 (a component of stomach acid) -> H+ (what makes ulcers) + HSO4- (mildly toxic, but bacteria in the digestive line counteracts) Also, in old alchemy books, roach parts were in lists of ingredents. If it was because of the chemical or just the observed nature of the roaches, I don't know. Even as far back as 2500 BCE, roaches were cited as health problems and used in protection 'magic' (Ledyen Papyrus). There is also supposed documentation of dark ages healers using roach parts in medicine (word of mouth, don't know how true this is). There is a history of using roaches as part of potions and remedies. It makes sense that JKR would use them in a potions room. Then again, 99% of the public think roaches are icky and reading that makes us go 'eww'. Maybe that was what she was going after? ===== "You irritate me. Kill me now." ~Javert, Les Miserables __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From pcaehill2 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 21 11:43:43 2004 From: pcaehill2 at sbcglobal.net (pcaehill2) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:43:43 -0000 Subject: JKR's narrative strategy (Was: Whose point of view ?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107137 Carol wrote: [snip] > Technically, the narrator of the Little Hangleton scene in GoF is >an objective narrator, who reports the action or historical >background without entering any character's mind, but it's simpler >to think of it as the same limited omniscient narrator who has >stepped for the moment outside Harry's POV. (The narrative voice is >different--more distant and authoritative. Pam replies: I also have thought that the Little Hangleton scene may be the narrator presenting Harry's dream (remember his link to Voldemort), sort of like a television screen in his mind. In this sense, the scene isn't deviating from Harry's POV at all; just letting us into his mind as usual, but without telling us initially that it's his dream. If this is the case, then the only scene outside the 'limited omniscient' narrative (from HP's perspective,that is) is the opening scene in SS--but, even parts of that could be argued to be a "memory" of sorts (maybe wizard babies remember more? lol) Pam (a lit major in another life) From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 11:47:46 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:47:46 -0000 Subject: Why didn't Severus reveal the Prank? (Was: How did Sirius lure Severus...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107138 > Carol responds: > Okay, you responded to the life debt portion of my post. But what I > was trying to focus on was the humiliation of owing James a life debt > as the reason why the young Severus didn't reveal the Prank (or Remus' > being a werewolf). You know, the question Kneasy was asking. Neri: Sorry, I thought I did respond to that, but I should have been clearer. I think Snape's image in his own eyes is more important to him than his image in the eyes of other wizards. In this sense he is a moral, honorable man. He has a super-ego that (usually) controls his ego, even if we don't always share the values of this super-ego. Even if nobody in the world would have ever known about James saving young Severus' life, Severus himself wouldn't be able to live with it, and he wouldn't be able to affect James' expulsion for the very act of saving Severus life. So Snape is certainly humiliated by the fact that he owes James, but this is first of all a humiliation in his own eyes. It is a matter between Snape and his super-ego. He of course wouldn't like other wizards, especially Harry, to know about it. But this part he can handle. He has no problem trashing James in front of Harry (or actually I think he did have a problem, but he got over it), but I don't think he believe himself in what he said to Harry, that James was the one behind the prank from the first place. Had he believed that he wouldn't have felt so much in debt to James. Of course, if you do buy Snape's story, or if you at least believe that he believes it, then you have a problem how to explain his silence after the prank, and then humiliation might be a good motive. Neri From greatraven at hotmail.com Wed Jul 21 11:55:46 2004 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:55:46 -0000 Subject: Draco. Was: Re: Will the Slytherins leave Hogwarts ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107139 - > Potioncat: > I'm assuming that at 17, most kids are still in school and > whether "of age" or not, they are still pretty much still under > their parents "guidence."...but on the other hand, they can decide > to leave school, join evil organizations...etc, etc.... > > Given that 4th, and 5th year students were fighting in this book, > the age factor may not play into this at all. > > Potioncat Sue: Well, Fred and George seemed to be using magic pretty freely outside of school in OOTP. Come to think of it, there was Ginny's Bat Bogey Hexandshe was under age... And, of course, the twins had just passed their Apparation test (the WW equivalent of getting your driver's licence?) From pcaehill2 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 21 11:58:46 2004 From: pcaehill2 at sbcglobal.net (pcaehill2) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:58:46 -0000 Subject: Parselmouth--archive info Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107140 I'm sure that Harry's ability to speak "snakish" will figure prominently in the next 2 books, possibly in an attempt to communicate with Nagini(?) or (far-fetched, but I like the symmetry of this one) the snake he freed in book 1 may somehow come back to help him (???). And I'm also sure that parselmouth theories etc. have already been discussed, but I couldn't find previous posts on this--does anyone have the numbers? Thanks in advance, Pam From greatraven at hotmail.com Wed Jul 21 12:03:07 2004 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 12:03:07 -0000 Subject: Snape's greasy hair In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107141 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sad1199" wrote: > sad1199 says: In the world of hair, greasy and oily mean the same > thing. It kind of depends on where you live. Like, where I live we > say 'soda' and where my ex lives they say 'pop'. Also, JKR is what is > called a definitve descriptive writer. Which means that her > descriptions are very definite and unchanging. 1. Harry's untidy hair > and glasses. 2. Hermione's bushy hair. 3. Ron's red hair and slightly > squashed nose. 4. Crookshanks' ginger color. She uses the same words > to define her characters so that is how you think of them > immediately. If someone says to you Harry Potter, you think young > wizard with glasses and black untidy hair. When you think of Snape, > it's the same thing only dark, greasy hair. This gives Harry young > hero appeal and Snape not so nice appeal. I don't think that her > description of Snape's hair has anything other than that to do with > his character. Like, I have said before, he might resent Harry being > his father's son but he has held true for him since the story > started. As for being a spy, he's loyalties obviously lie with > Dumbledore and Harry as he had has many opportunities to use his > position and knowledge against them. Such as, he made the werewolf > potion for Remus because Dumbledore told/asked him to. One more thing > could someone please tell me where it is written that Snape is > friends with Lucious Malfoy? I need to read that again. sad1199 Sue: Nice post! I agree, too - sort of like in the Iliad and Odyssey, where the sea is always wine-dark and the ships are swift whether they're actually sailing or not, and Nestor is always wise, etc. And as you say, it has to do with the character's appeal ... Ever noticed that while Snape's nose is "hooked" Dumbledore's is "crooked"? You're supposed to feel affection for Dumbledore and a long, crooked nose sounds more lovable than hooked. If Snape was meant to be the hero, his nose would be aquiline. To answer your question, I think in OOTP, Umbridge says that Lucius Malfoy speaks very highly of Snape, i.e. she's surprised that he doesn't seem to be on her side... From ariston3344 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 06:33:13 2004 From: ariston3344 at yahoo.com (ariston3344) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 06:33:13 -0000 Subject: Snape's greasy hair In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107142 sad1199 wrote: > could someone please tell me where it is written that Snape is > friends with Lucious Malfoy? I need to read that again. Hi sad, I don't know if this is the passage that most people have in mind, but this is the one that I think of: --- begin block quote from OotP 32, "Out of the Fire" --- 'I have already told you,' said Snape smoothly, 'that I have no further stocks of Veritaserum.' [...] 'You are on probation!' shrieked Professor Umbridge, and Snape looked back at her, his eyebrows slightly raised. 'You are being deliberately unhelpful! I expected better, Lucius Malfoy always speaks most highly of you! Now get out of my office!' --- end block quote --- On a somewhat different note, looking at this passage again made me realize that Umbridge must not know that Snape is a Legilimens. She was ready to try Veritaserum on Harry and even the Cruciatus Curse, but she didn't ask Snape to try Legilimency. I'm not sure if this matters, but I do find it interesting. Is it even remotely plausible that: (a) it's a secret that Snape is a Legilimens, and (b) he uses Legilimency as his means of spying on the DEs? I'm sure the topic of how Snape spies has been thoroughly covered, so sorry for bringing it up... but if there are previous threads someone could point me to, I would be most grateful. Quite apart from my Legilimency speculation, this is a topic I've wondered a lot about. Thanks! -ariston From dolis5657 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 07:19:20 2004 From: dolis5657 at yahoo.com (dcgmck) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 07:19:20 -0000 Subject: Names and their meanings... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107143 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lillian" wrote: > Themes, Motifs, and Symbols. They had a section about some > of the names in the book. They talked about the origins of > Dumbledore's name and of Lucius Malfoy's name. dcgmck writes: Dumbledore, which means bumblebee, does seem apt. Not only is he hard-working, but his sting is sharp enough to be painful, even deadly (though he has yet to kill anyone of whom we know), and he loves sweets, filling Hogwarts with metaphorical honey and using the names of treats for his passwords. Lucius Malfoy's name, however, is a little more problematic for me. While Lucius may have the same initial sound as Lucifer, it is a common grade school misspelling for "luscious" as well as a Roman form of Luke (I think...) If we're speaking of Biblical allusions, Luke was the physician credited with writing the books of Luke and Acts. If the implication is medical, there doesn't seem to be any direct canonical evidence as yet that Malfoy was in any way responsible for the assassination of Broderick Bode at St. Mungo's or that he is otherwise involved with healers and conflicts of interest on the ward for those suffering from spell damage such as Lockhart and the Longbottoms. Of course, since he is "Mal"foy, perhaps he is, indeed, involved in "malpractice", certainly of magic if not of medicine... Lillian: > The one that interested me though was what they had to say about Gilderoy Lockhart's name. They said that Lockhart's name describes his locked heart, or secret identity. I am wondering if that is significant. dcgmck writes: Well, one of the secrets of Lockhart's identity has to have been that he was "fronting" for a wide variety of talented witches and wizards, claiming credit for their feats. One might speculate as well that Gilderoy is a gold-painted person of royal blood, a painted popinjay of a princeling, but I'm still not convinced that this next title will refer to anyone or anything of which we readers have been previous apprised. Lillian: > I believe that in a J.K.R. interview she said that we would be seeing him again, although she may have been talking about when we see him in book 5. > Lillian dcgmck writes: On the other hand, it does seem that his appearance on the closed ward was gratuitous, lending support to the notion that JKR is merely temporizing and will bring back this mindless fop and his memory sometime in the next two tomes. Interesting... From ariston3344 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 07:20:02 2004 From: ariston3344 at yahoo.com (ariston3344) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 07:20:02 -0000 Subject: Narrative strategy and Harry's death (?) (Was: Re: JKR's narrative strategy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107144 Carol wrote: > The HP books are a different matter. They are not told by the > protagonist as an adult from his own point of view. Such a device > would ruin the suspense JKR wants us to feel regarding Harry's > survival. This seems right to me, and I lean toward the view (don't lynch me!) that Harry will die in book 7 (but that's a different post). But I've always thought that this poses a rather awkward problem given the POV adopted by JKR (since it is almost always Harry's). Any scene leading to Harry's death would obviously be THE climax of the entire series -- it's almost unthinkable to me that such a scene would not be told from Harry's POV. But if it is told from his POV, how would JKR smoothly handle Harry's death itself? She could have Harry thudding (or slowly slipping) out of consciousness, after which point the POV immediately shifts. This seems awkward, even if there is a chapter division at that point. Alternatively, JKR could follow Harry into death. Then it seems that there are two choices: (1) Dead Harry himself, in ghost form or otherwise, views the action somehow so that we get the full denouement from his POV; or (2) We would see Dead Harry reuniting with his parents (or something similar), after which we would switch back to an earthbound POV for the denouement for those left living. Both of these seem unsatisfactory to me, though, because they introduce something very big and very brand new (life after death, seen through Harry's eyes) right at the very end. That in turn presents two other possible options: (a) We follow Harry into death but never learn much about what life after death is like. To my taste, that's unsatisfying and maybe even a bit cliche -- a few rungs above "It was all a dream". (b) JKR provides an in-depth, satisfying introduction to life after death -- but this seems like it would have to be so long as to be anti-climactic. [C.S. Lewis does pull off (b) in the Chronicles of Narnia, but I'm not sure it would work as well in the HP context, and maybe people disagree as to whether they think it really "works" in the Narnia series.] The only other alternatives I can imagine are that we get a lot of info on life after death in advance, so that when Harry gets there, there's not much left to say (how would this happen?), or we leave Harry's POV *before* his death scene (i.e., we leave Our Hero's POV at the most crucial point in the whole series). I'm not a literary genius, but it seems that it would be very difficult to write a satisfying ending with Harry dying, given JKR's choice to use Harry's POV primarily (though admittedly not exclusively). Should POV problems be taken as a reason to think that Harry will live (although, as I said above, I actually think he probably won't)? Ideas/arguments/corrections? (As always, sorry if this is a tired, worn out, old topic.) -ariston From dolis5657 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 07:59:57 2004 From: dolis5657 at yahoo.com (dcgmck) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 07:59:57 -0000 Subject: Nagini and Fawkes (lifted < another thread) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107145 - Saraquel: - 3) Why have a Nagini? Amey: - In Hindu Mythology, *Nag* are the magical race of snakes. They - possess some very powerful magic and may live for thousands of years - (some are immortal). They are alternatively associated with black - magic and white magic. So I think, Nagini is one of the Nagas and - her venom is the thing which keeps LV in the current form. It is - something like Unicorn blood in that respect. dcgmck: This is fascinating. JKR has said that she draws names from a variety of sources without necessarily implying anything, but that's hard to tell from examination of her more interesting names. Fawkes is a phoenix, a creature that, like the Nagas, can theoretically exist for millenia through their continual rebirthing. Equally interesting is the fact that Dumbledore's phoenix bears the name of a man memorialized by British tradition who was, in fact, a conspirator against the 17th century union of England and Scotland. The historical Fawkes ended up getting publicly hanged, drawn, and quartered after naming a fellow named "Rookwood" as a cohort. Now JKR has named the familiars of the two most dangerous wizards of the time Nagini and Fawkes, reflecting a more global contrast of cultures while hinting at millenia-old animosities/rivalries. Who's the familiar here: the wizard or the creature? For those who look for a time loop of some sort in the narrative, the names and histories of these two diametrically opposed entities offer great promise. I look forward to reading (on the other thread) more about Nagas. I have to believe that JKR already knows. From lysandrabellargus at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 21 09:57:52 2004 From: lysandrabellargus at yahoo.co.uk (Sandra) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 09:57:52 -0000 Subject: Cold case files - The Riddle Case In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107146 Vanessa: > The problem with this sort of enquiry is that it's a scenario > well within the bounds of tradition or stereotype, and there are a > *million* different explanations, all of which are quite, quite > plausible. > I mean, let's face it; the servants could have seen absolutely > everything, and then just had their memories altered by Riddle > afterwards. Or he could have put them into a state of > unconsciousness. Or the family knew he was coming and waited up > long after the servants had gone to bed. > Or they could have been in the habit of staying up late anyway. > Or they just happened to have dinner early that day. > Or the cook was tired and the maid was out and about in town > with her "boyfriend". Or she was sick. > Or... it's > just endless! Sandra: I agree that Tom could have used the ever so often mentioned memory charm on the servants, even on Frank, but might have only deleted the memory of the actual murder/ torture, so we can not be sure about the time and the whereabouts of the servants. but after reading and thinking about the Riddle case some more questions came to my mind (sorry): How, to start with, does he end up with the surname Riddle, and hence knows who is father is? As he is brought up in the orphanage, they should not have told him, although they might even not have known themselves. Or as his parents were most likely married, hence his mothers surname was Riddle, and his father could not stop her using it, even if he would have tried? Where has Tom got his information about his 'family', as his mother just had time to name him after giving birth? Maybe form that evening, when in the end he killed the Riddles? How did he got introduced to WW, who was his 'Hagrid', or did he, as 11 y old did it all by himself, granted he is told to be a very gifted and intelligent wizard. Sandra From elfundeb at comcast.net Wed Jul 21 12:15:14 2004 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb2) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 12:15:14 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's howler, Dumbledore and Petunia, (was Re: New JKR FAQ Poll: Which is significant?) In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.1.20040720175450.00c58c20@mail.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107147 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Shannon wrote: I always > thought it was odd that Harry wouldn't have recognized Dumbledore's voice > immediately, though I guess it could have sounded very different from the > Dumbledore Harry knows. Still, it struck me as odd. And I can't get past > the wording of it. It's too unusually worded for me to accept Dumbledore's > explanation as the whole story. Heh. Since Harry did not recognize the voice, I assumed it was *not* Dumbledore who sent the Howler. As a result, what I thought was odd was the fact that JKR referred to it as "Dumbledore's Howler" (though it makes sense if she's quoting a fan question). I'm half expecting the answer to be "What makes everyone think Dumbledore sent it?" although I think it was sent by a member of the Order at any rate, and its author matters less than the fact that Petunia is in communication with wizards and is evidently hiding that fact from Vernon. And while I have little to offer in speculation about who might have sent the Howler, if not Dumbledore, I can readily imagine the content of the sender's "last". Since the reason Harry was placed with the Dursleys in the first place was to provide protection from Voldemort ("While you can still call home the place where your mother's blood dwells, there you cannot be touched or harmed by Voldemort."), it seems likely that Petunia was informed of Voldemort's return, and the resulting increased risk to Harry, and possibly to herself. While Vernon's attitude toward magic is motivated by his desire to be the exemplar of the *normal* middle class, I think Petunia is afraid of magic because she knows its consequences too well, a fear which was first expressed in PS/SS when Harry came along on Dudley's trip to the zoo because Petunia feared that the house might blow up otherwise. In fact, I think she's been kept quite well informed. Her statement about Dementors, for example, seems too specific (and her response to Vernon's question too "jerky") to be merely a random thought she remembers hearing someone mention 15 years ago. I suspect she may know what happened to Harry by the lake in PoA, and she's terrified both about how someone might come after her (in the manner of the Lestranges' attack on the Longbottoms) *and* about keeping this knowledge -- including knowledge of Dumbledore's letter -- from Vernon. Some time ago, Ali wrote a wonderful post entitled "The Tragedy of Petunia Dursley" which I would love to find and which touches on this last point, which I would love to explore further but don't have time at the moment. If someone knows where it is, I would love to be directed to it (offlist). Debbie who voted for JKR to answer this question From greatraven at hotmail.com Wed Jul 21 12:19:45 2004 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 12:19:45 -0000 Subject: Cousins by marriage ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107148 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > > > If Molly's cousin married Sirius' cousin, his cousin would have to be > on his mother's side of the family unless Molly's cousin is Lucius > Malfoy, Rodolphus Lestrange, or Ted Tonks. (I know that Sirius's > mother's painting screams about "her" family, but unless she was also > a Black before her marriage, the Black sisters are her husband's > relatives, not hers.) > > Carol, who apologizes for coming in late on this thread and hopes she > hasn't duplicated anybody's post. Sue: Given the inbreeding among the "purebloods" it's entirely possible that Mrs Black was, indeed, a Black before her marriage and married a cousin. BTW, she must have married quite late to be the old woman she is described as, because she had been dead for ten years at the start of OOTP and the portrait would have had to be painted before then, if it was painted from life. Sirius is only in his 30s and was in his 20s when she died. So maybe she is an earlier generation on the family tree, a generation before the Black sisters? From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jul 21 12:23:17 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 12:23:17 -0000 Subject: Why didn't Severus reveal the Prank? (Was: How did Sirius lure Severus...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107149 Kneasy wrote: > > Humiliation? Why would Snape feel humiliated? snip >> And I don't go along with the 'life debt' theory. snip Potioncat: I've cut and pasted from post #107020 (Another Chronology..) because one of the questions in this post was: what made Snape keep quiet about the prank?, but that post has trust issues as well. Nora is commenting on the scene in the hospital wing just after Black has been turned in > THIS is where Snape starts to go behind DD's back to do something he knows his boss wouldn't approve of, and tries to get Black taken care of before DD can 'cause problems'. This is the explanation for the quote in the hallway with Fudge--I don't have it in front of me, so anyone who responds can plug it in, please. The escape happens, > Snape is furious, and DD lets him fume because he knows that Snape > was up to something wrong; it's worked out later, given the end of > GoF and the reaction there. Potioncat: So we have Snape who has kept quiet about Lupin and the unfortunate incident all these years. Even when he tells Harry about it, he doesn't reveal anything. Now he's in Fudge's pocket. Eager for the execution, eager for the Order of Merlin. He learns Black has escaped and throws a fit. DD gives the word and Snape backs down and stomps off. The next morning, after all these years, he lets it slip that Lupin is a werewolf. Snape and DD aren't always in agreement in these books. Several of us have thought of Snape as DD's right hand man, but I'm not so sure now. He's starting to look a lot like Percy. And in GoF, is he staring at his reflection in the Foe-Glass because he isn't sure which side he's on? So, how has DD kept/earned/gotten Snape's loyalty? And how much longer will he have it? From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Wed Jul 21 12:28:19 2004 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (wickywackywoo2001) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 12:28:19 -0000 Subject: Cold case files - The Riddle Case In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107150 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Vanessa" wrote: > > Firstly, it's not unusual, given that the household > `only' has three > servants, for them to go to bed before the family. In the super- > rich, super-servanted households (I'm sure that's not a > word!) you > might expect ladies' maids to assist with undressing and > preparing > beds, and butlers (etc) to deal with drinks; possibly also an > undercook to prepare a cold cut supper, or suchlike. But since they > don't exist, the pattern of sending servants to bed (or at least, > telling them they're dismissed) wouldn't be at all unusual. > Frankly, if I were the one who had to get up at 6am to heat the > stove and make coffee, I'd go to bed early too, even if the > family > were still up drinking and smoking cigars at 11pm. Equally, it's > unlikely that the servant quarters were situated close to the living > areas of the family; more likely they were attic rooms, or rooms on > the lower floor near the kitchen and scullery; mostly because, after > all, one would not want the servants overhearing one's > conversation! > Although the cook suggests it happened while "we was all > sleeping", > that doesn't even indicate that the Riddles were up particularly > late, it just means that the family had no interaction with the > servants after dinner, which is quite normal. They may well have > been murdered early in the evening, after the cook and maid had been > dismissed, and were, say, sorting out the washing up (I'm sure > all > that clinking of saucepans and plates would have covered up any > suspicious noises). I took the maid's declaration that they were still "wearing their dinner clothes" really to indicate that they had never gone to bed. So that might well point to an earlier time of death, rather than later. While the servants were still up? Maybe, but to my mind, that would argue less that this was a pre-meditated murder. I mean, Tom Riddle is a smart boy; if he had a plan and didn't want to be stopped or interfered with, he'd do it when his victims were isolated and unlikely to be able to summon help or even have someone accidentally blunder onto the scene. I guess we could say that he wouldn't care even if a servant did hear or see something - he could kill a servant as easily as a Riddle, but he doesn't seem like a *wasteful* kind of person. He goes more for the surgical strike, otherwise he could just stand at the bottom of the hill in the middle of the afternoon and blast the whole house to smithereens from a distance. It's just not his style. > > The problem with this sort of enquiry is that it's a scenario > well > within the bounds of tradition or stereotype, and there are a > *million* different explanations, all of which are quite, quite > plausible. > I mean, let's face it; the servants could have seen absolutely > everything, and then just had their memories altered by Riddle > afterwards. Or he could have put them into a state of > unconsciousness. Or the family knew he was coming and waited up > long after the servants had gone to bed. Or they could have been in > the habit of staying up late anyway. Or they just happened to have > dinner early that day. Or the cook was tired and the maid was out > and about in town with her "boyfriend". Or she was sick. > Or... it's > just endless! True enough, but then, that's the case with probably 85% of the theories we post here. Besides, it's fun! We could do the same thing about any issue you like - trying to figure out Madame Rosmerta's daily schedule and estimating how many pints of butterbeer are sold at the pub in Hogsmeade every day. But I like to strategize on THIS point, because I think that Rowling deliberately wrote it with pieces of information missing, because she is going to come back to this scene later. It's an extraordinary interlude in the HP books, because it breaks the pattern of involving Harry or his POV; the followup scene, with Voldemort and Wormtail, is in the form of a dream, but the antecedent scene is not known to Harry at all, and is completely outside the framework of the regular story. Also, it's written like a murder mystery, and murder mysteries are meant to be figured out. And I don't think it's accidental that the family name is "Riddle". This IS a riddle; something is hidden here, and I want to figure out what it is. That I can't do it on my own, and have to wait for the author to finish the story, doesn't spoil the fun of trying to beat her to the ending, just as I do when I'm at about page 130 of a 156-page Christie mystery. Wanda From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 21 12:47:02 2004 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:47:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Triumph in tragedy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040721124702.1513.qmail@web25104.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107151 Iris wrote: >>You titled your post `Tragedy or triumph'. As for me, I would rather say `Triumph in tragedy', because that's precisely what, IMO, Jesus' crucifixion or the Alchemical Wedding are. That's also what the Harry Potter books are, by many aspects.<< Once again a "bloody brilliant" essay! You have led us into the wonderful world of the Greek tragedy and its aims. It just shows on how many levels HP operates. I think possibly people will still be making comparisons and arguing about HP in a thousand years time. Thank you so much for sharing your insight and erudition with us. There's a lot to think about in your essay and I hope people will keep it and read it many times to think about it. I will. I am printing all the great posts and filing them into a thick folder. Of course all this debating and exploring the depth of HP increases the tension as we all wait for the Great End. To me the most satisfactory end would indeed be what I've said before: after all Harry's suffering, after all the tragedy and tribulations, after his defeat of Voldemort and the Death Eaters by an act of love or forgiveness (I can't imagine what yet), he will be faced with the final choice: to enter the rapturous ecstasy of Nirvana beyond the Gate of Saturn, or to yield to the overwhelming compassion for the rest of the human race, by becoming gate-keeper for those who wish to go the Alchemical Path that Harry has completed. Only the second option would satisfy me: Harry ending up as ferryman to the first years at Hogwarts. Perhaps the world will see that as a tragedy, as the worst possible type of punishment for our beloved hero, as the supreme injustice of all time. Yet this will be what Harry himself will choose. This is the Way of the Master of Compassion. Harry will come home to Hogwarts. I would like to know what other members think of such an ending. Hans in Holland ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Wed Jul 21 13:29:14 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 08:29:14 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape a vampire? (was Snape's Patronus) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107152 -nadjjaa What are the characteristics of JKR's vampires, anyway? Does anyone know??? That would help to formulate my opinion! Gina: Have you noticed she left vampires out of FBWTFT? I grabbed that book off the shelf to see where her idea of vamps were so that I could compare them to Snape, but ALAS! There was not a single mention of vampires in the book. There was just about every other creature, but NO vampires..... Gina - who still thinks Snape is a vampire. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pcaehill2 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 21 13:55:32 2004 From: pcaehill2 at sbcglobal.net (pcaehill2) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:55:32 -0000 Subject: Names and their meanings... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107153 > dcgmck wrote: [snip] > Lucius Malfoy's name, however, is a little more problematic for me. Pam responds: This has probably already been pointed out, but "malfoy" may be from the French "mal foi" or "bad faith"--as in, someone who can't be trusted to "keep faith" with anyone. From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 21 14:01:46 2004 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:01:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Narrative strategy and Harry's death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040721140146.90376.qmail@web25110.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107154 --- ariston3344 wrote: I lean toward the view that Harry will die in book 7. But I've always thought that this poses a rather awkward problem given the POV adopted by JKR (since it is almost always Harry's). Any scene leading to Harry's death would obviously be THE climax of the entire series -- it's almost unthinkable to me that such a scene would not be told from Harry's POV. But if it is told from his POV, how would JKR smoothly handle Harry's death itself? Hans' response: As I've said in my predictions in post 106899 I predict that Harry will go through the Gate of Saturn. That's the arch with the veil. It's a symbolic death, but at the same time very real from a story point of view. It will obviously be quite simple to tell this from Harry's POV. I think Harry will be able to return through the gate because of some kind of magic. What Harry will see there I have no idea, but I do believe it's quite possible he will go through Hell. See the recent posts about the Greek heroes who have gone to Hades and returned. Hans in Holland ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Wed Jul 21 15:35:57 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:35:57 -0000 Subject: Snape a vampire? (was Snape's Patronus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107155 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miller, Gina (JIS)" wrote: Gina: > Have you noticed she left vampires out of FBWTFT? I grabbed that >book off the shelf to see where her idea of vamps were so that I >could compare them to Snape, but ALAS! There was not a single >mention of vampires in the book. There was just about every other >creature, but NO vampires..... "K": Oh, vampires are there. FB The centaurs objected to some of the creatures with whom they were asked to share "being" status, such as hags and vampires... FB/xiii I'll list most of the vampire references in the books later today. :-D > Gina - who still thinks Snape is a vampire. "K": Just keep on believing. From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 16:36:01 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:36:01 -0000 Subject: Snape a vampire? (was Snape's Patronus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107156 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "koinonia02" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miller, Gina (JIS)" > wrote: > > > Gina: > > Have you noticed she left vampires out of FBWTFT? I grabbed that > >book off the shelf to see where her idea of vamps were so that I > >could compare them to Snape, but ALAS! There was not a single > >mention of vampires in the book. There was just about every other > >creature, but NO vampires..... > > > "K": > > Oh, vampires are there. > > FB > > The centaurs objected to some of the creatures with whom they were > asked to share "being" status, such as hags and vampires... > FB/xiii > > > I'll list most of the vampire references in the books later today. > :-D > > > > > Gina - who still thinks Snape is a vampire. JKR has said flat-out he's not. There's characteristics of vampires that made it seem unlikely that Snape was such, even without JKR's word. Jim F. From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 21 16:46:59 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:46:59 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's House? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107157 "Steve" wrote: [major snipppppppage] > I'm convinced Slytherin House give preference to ambitious cunning > pureblood, but if you are a mixed blood and you are still sufficiently > cunning and ambitious, then your in. I think it is rather "if the Sorting Hat says so, you're in". I don't recall in canon any instance of the Sorting Hat taking any notice of any wishes other than those within the head upon which it had been placed. Now if that person knows something of a particular House and *wants* in or out, like Harry or Hermione, then those wishes can be taken into account. I don't see the Sorting Hat asking McGonagall or Sprout whether they would awfully mind having such-and-such a person in their house: it TELLS everybody which house they're to be in. I also don't recall any mention of even the possibility of re-Sorting if the Sortee doesn't like the result. Was there anyone else for whom it has been *established* that there was some debate? I know Neville took ages to be Sorted but I don't we ever heard why. HTH HAND -- Phil From eternal_riddle at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 16:05:34 2004 From: eternal_riddle at yahoo.com (Anastasia) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:05:34 -0000 Subject: Remember my last, Petunia! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107158 Anastasia: I just read over the passage with Petunia getting a strange howler many of us wonder about. "It's [the Howler] adressed to ME, Vernon, look! [followed by exact address]" "Remember my last, Petunia!" Well, if you happen to get a letter dropped on your head with your name and address on it, what do you suggest? Right, that the content of the letter is meant for you. Then why "Remember my last, PETUNIA?" The speaker seems to be familiar enough with Harry's aunt to call her by her name only. DD seems not to be the man to do that if he didn't know her well enough. Does he know her that well? As far as I can remember, DD admits to have SENT the howler. But that doesn't mean that "my" refers to him, does it? You see, I'm very confused. I just cannot come up with any decent theory of a person calling Harry's aunt "Petunia" except of... Lily! But what could Lily have told her? That she cast a spell to harm Dudley if Petunia ever harmed Harry? Some prophecy? HELP!!!! Anastasia From griffin782002 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 15:05:30 2004 From: griffin782002 at yahoo.com (sp. sot.) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 08:05:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape a vampire? (was Snape's Patronus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040721150530.44973.qmail@web90006.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107159 "Miller, Gina (JIS)" wrote: Gina: Have you noticed she left vampires out of FBWTFT? I grabbed that book off the shelf to see where her idea of vamps were so that I could compare them to Snape, but ALAS! There was not a single mention of vampires in the book. There was just about every other creature, but NO vampires..... Griffin782002 now: I am affraid you have mised some points. In FBAWTFT, J.K.R. has writen only about those entities that have been clasified by the M.o.M. as Beasts. Some others are classified as Beings, which are I believe includes vampires and hags(FBAWTFT, What is a beast). And I think there is a third category for spirits, well, I don't think it needs any explanation as what this category includes. Griffin782002 From cartoonista at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 14:20:48 2004 From: cartoonista at yahoo.com (cartoonista) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:20:48 -0000 Subject: Narrative strategy and Harry's death (?) (Was: Re: JKR's narrative strategy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107160 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ariston3344" wrote: > The only other alternatives I can imagine are that we get a lot of > info on life after death in advance, so that when Harry gets there, > there's not much left to say (how would this happen?) If Harry is able to use the 2-way mirror to talk to Sirius in the next book, we might get quite a bit of information about the afterlife via their chats. (That said, I'm not sure I'd find that a very satisfying solution, either.) From jlawlor at gmail.com Wed Jul 21 16:46:56 2004 From: jlawlor at gmail.com (James Lawlor) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:46:56 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR's narrative strategy (Was: Whose point of view ?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96773c8804072109462c91e78d@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107161 Pam: > I also have thought that the Little Hangleton scene may be the > narrator presenting Harry's dream (remember his link to Voldemort), > sort of like a television screen in his mind. In this sense, the > scene isn't deviating from Harry's POV at all; just letting us into > his mind as usual, but without telling us initially that it's his > dream. James: I'll challenge you on this one. :D It seems to me that the POV in this chapter is indeed the POV of Frank Bryce. Why? Because Harry's dreams are always from Voldemort's point of view - as far as we know he's never had a dream from the POV of someone close to Voldemort or interfearing with Voldemort. The chapter, as I recall, starts from Frank's point of view and at the very end merges into Harry's only as Voldemort kills Frank and Harry wakes up. And, you know, before this list, I'd never really thought of the POV in Harry Potter, especially not the few places that it deviates from the standard. - James Lawlor jlawlor at gmail.com From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 13:04:09 2004 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 06:04:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why didn't Severus reveal the Prank? (Was: How did Sirius lure Severus...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040721130409.84860.qmail@web50101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107162 --- justcarol67 wrote: > Carol wrote: > I think Neri is on the right track here, but I would add that > Severus' fear of humiliation is probably the crucial factor. Yes, I agree with Carol. That's really the only reason that Snape would not have used the very real power he had been given over Lupin - and over Dumbledore too in fact. He could have got Lupin expelled (at a minimum) and Dumbledore fired. And yet what happened? According to Lupin, Snape was "forbidden" to tell: Dumbledore: "Severus, I forbid you to get me fired, which would result in the hiring of a headmaster who would not look kindly on bending the rules for nice werewolves and would get rid of Remus Lupin immediately, thereby making Mr. Black and Mr. Potter very unhappy and vindicating your efforts to spy on them." Snape: *grumble, grumble, gripe, whine, whine, whine* "All right." I can't see it. It must have been the knowledge that his pride would suffer a shattering blow that kept him quiet. Or perhaps Dumbledore handled things a lot better than Lupin imagined with more tact and care for a prickly, cheesed-off student's dignity. But it might also explain JKR's comment that "Snape told Dumbledore his story and Dumbledore believed it" (when asked what Snape did to convince Dumbledore he was sincere in turning against Voldemort). After all, Dumbledore had trusted Snape's word once before and he kept it. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Wed Jul 21 16:55:12 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:55:12 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Remember my last, Petunia! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107163 Anastasia As far as I can remember, DD admits to have SENT the howler. But that doesn't mean that "my" refers to him, does it? Gina: Maybe DD sent it but it was not his voice? Maybe someone else left the message for DD to send Petunia if she ever tried to send Harry away??? But don't howlers explode or something if you do not open them? It has been 16 years! On the other hand I believe we will not solve any of this because there can be too many spells/potions, etc added to the story that we have no way to know about - like one that allows you to save a howler for over a decade! Gina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From WanderingStar20 at aol.com Wed Jul 21 12:19:06 2004 From: WanderingStar20 at aol.com (wanderingstar1979) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 12:19:06 -0000 Subject: OOPS Re: The Cockroach Connection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107164 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "wanderingstar1979" wrote: > > You're absolutely right. In OoTP, > I know you all caught this already, but that whole post was from GoF, NOT OoTP (must have had that book on the brain). All the page numbers and chapter names were correct for the US edition of GoF, though! Sorry, WanderingStar1979 From jakejensen at hotmail.com Wed Jul 21 17:57:14 2004 From: jakejensen at hotmail.com (jakedjensen) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:57:14 -0000 Subject: Great site for Egyptian mythology Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107165 In recent days there has been a lot of talk about Egyptian mythology, so I thought I would post this excellent website (about that very topic). A few gods/goddesses that HP fans will find interesting are: Ptah (sometimes referred to as the Elf God/ Elf king), Buto, Isis, Seth, Osiris, and Horus (note the plotline of Isis, Seth, Osiris, and Horus...sound familiar?), and Ammut ("the Dead- swallower"...hmmm)...just to name a few.... Anyway, here's the link: http://www.egyptianmyths.net/section-deities.htm Jake From mnaperrone at aol.com Wed Jul 21 18:24:17 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 18:24:17 -0000 Subject: Why didn't Severus reveal the Prank? (Was: How did Sirius lure Severus...) In-Reply-To: <20040721130409.84860.qmail@web50101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107166 > --- justcarol67 wrote: > > Carol wrote: > > I think Neri is on the right track here, but I would add that > > Severus' fear of humiliation is probably the crucial factor. > > > Yes, I agree with Carol. That's really the only reason that Snape > would not have used the very real power he had been given over Lupin > - and over Dumbledore too in fact. He could have got Lupin expelled > (at a minimum) and Dumbledore fired. And yet what happened? > According to Lupin, Snape was "forbidden" to tell: > Ally: I'm not so sure. Snape wanted or at least didn't care that the whole thing would be public when he pushed DD to punish the Marauders. Why would that change if he had to make it public instead? If anything, it would have made Snape look more the martyr, b/c not only was he set up for the prank, but the Headmaster didn't take his side (as he would have seen it). Also, Snape was 15/16, and while clearly hotheaded, he also apparently was a stickler for the rules. The impression I get from him now and the pensieve memory was that he was some kid who had to work hard to succeed at things and was mindful of authority (as he still appears to be of DD). So I'm not sure if DD told him not to tell, his first response would have been to turn around and threaten DD with blackmail. When have we ever seen Snape engage in that kind of extortioninst behavior? And its not just that he didn't tell he was set up. He didn't tell anyone Lupin was a werewolf, either. If he was inclined to go against DD's orders, he could have revealed Lupin's secret in any number of sneaky ways without risking humiliation, but he didn't. I think he gave his word and he kept it, although under some duress. I get the feeling that, mean spirited as he is, Snape has something of a personal code, and giving a promise to DD is important to him, I think. From mnaperrone at aol.com Wed Jul 21 18:31:22 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 18:31:22 -0000 Subject: Quick question re: Lupin's resignation . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107167 Is there a part of OOTP I'm forgetting? Everyone said Snape let it slip that Lupin was a werewolf, but I didn't necessarily read Hagrid's statement like that. He said something like "Didn't you hear? Snape told the Slytherins this morning. Professor Lupin is a werewolf and was roaming the grounds last night. He's packing now." That could mean - Snape told the Slytherins Lupin was a werewolf this morning, and now, as a result, Lupin's resigned. Or it could just mean, Snape told the Slytherins the news that Lupin will no longer be with us, b/c he's a werewolf, I'm surprised it hasn't gotten all around the school yet. Is there some other part that confirms that Snape actually leaked the information, or is it all based on this quote from Hagrid? From iveluis at coqui.net Wed Jul 21 07:12:21 2004 From: iveluis at coqui.net (luis padilla) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 03:12:21 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's Patronus References: Message-ID: <005701c46ef2$1129ce70$1db53242@luis> No: HPFGUIDX 107168 > ChrisDJ: > Therefore, > > the only conclusion that one can take from this comment is that Snape > > is an animagi. I think that Snape is really LV's most loyal servant, that he was in the Death Eaters reunion (most of them were hooded), and he's double-crossing DD (making him think that he's working for the order). His patronus is in the image of LV (or maybe the dark mark), which he sees as his protective figure. --Luis From flitwicksman at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 10:16:55 2004 From: flitwicksman at yahoo.com (Brian Cordova) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:16:55 -0000 Subject: The Cockroach Connection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107169 Janet wrote: > > > > But I wonder if there isn't something about cockroaches too. > > How often have we heard about Cockroach Clusters? WanderingStar1979 wrote: > page 579 of the US edition (chapter twenty-nine "The Dream"): > > "Chocolate Frog! He yelled angrily, standing on one leg. "Sugar > quill! Cockroach cluster!" > The gargoyle sprang to life and jumped aside. Harry blinked. > "Cockroach cluster?" he said, amazed. "I was only joking...." I'm not sure if this may or may not be any major clue, but the "Cockroach Cluster" is taking from a Monty Python sketch (of which JKR is a big fan of) called "Crunchy Frog" and can be found at: http://www.pythonland.com/episode06.php#5 Brian:-) From cincimaelder at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 13:59:12 2004 From: cincimaelder at yahoo.com (cincimaelder) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:59:12 -0000 Subject: Patronus at DADA OWL (was Re: Harry's Future...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107170 > Carol responds: > But there's one crucial difference between Harry's corporeal > Patronus and everyone else's: he can produce it in the face of a > real Dementor. > The others didn't even have boggarts to practice on (that wouldn't > work even if they had individual boggarts because no one else's > boggart is a Dementor). They've only cast them at each other, almost > in play. I think Harry deserved his bonus point--and more--and I see > no need to share that little moment of pride and pleasure with Ernie > or anyone else. I was the one who originally posted the question about the strength of Harry's patronus. I have to say, I like this explanation the best, it covers all the bases. It explains why Harry's patronus was so respected and why the others could produce one. Mae From brenda-chaisson at rogers.com Wed Jul 21 01:07:31 2004 From: brenda-chaisson at rogers.com (luckdragon64) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 01:07:31 -0000 Subject: Animagus Snape? Was: Re: Who would love Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107171 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "wanderingstar1979" wrote: > > WanderingStar wrote: > > > > > > In particular, I thought about animals that like or prefer the > > > cold, are at least partially black, white (pale skin), and might > > > have some yellow coloring (teeth) that can be found in Europe > > > that might be able to fly or at least have a wingspan (bat > > > references), and that have a NEED for some kind of grease or oil > > > for their well-being. Just a little info. in support of my theory re: Snape's animagus is a bat. I looked into the diet of the bat and found "70% of bat species eat insects". "luckdragon" From cruthw at earthlink.net Wed Jul 21 14:15:09 2004 From: cruthw at earthlink.net (caspenzoe) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:15:09 -0000 Subject: Books 6 & 7 - tragedy or triumph? In-Reply-To: <20040720072958.32859.qmail@web25107.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107172 > Hans: > I have one big question about Liberation. Perhaps you people can help me > understand this. Why is this process often depicted as being full of > suffering and sorrow, when in fact liberation is the most wonderful and > beautiful thing there is? I just don't know why Harry has to suffer so much. > I don't know why Jesus' crucifixion is regarded as such torture. And the > Alchemical Wedding with its 7 decapitations isn't exactly a tea party > either. Yet what can be more ecstatic than to be liberated from our own > inner evil? You have some very fascinating ideas Hans. However, I think you are over-applying them. Ron and Hermoine will not be decapitated in any literal sense. I very much doubt either will even die. Since you've insisted on assigning probablities to your predictions (without bothering to tell us how you came up with your - precision implied, but not supported - odds), I'll respond in kind: probability - both my predictions - 99.99999%. JKR knew when she planned the series that the books would be read, as they in fact are, despite the remarkably high interest shown by adults, primarily by children. In addition, fascinating as the alchemical analogies are, and as convinced as I am that they probably are, in fact, the key to understanding the overall plan of the series, you seem to have missed the point to some extent: the process of transformation itself, in alchemy in it's esoteric sense - which is all that remains of alchemy as a subject of study today - in any case - let alone in the Harry Potter series & Potterverse, IS and always has been purely symbolic. Sales and our author's reputation, among other things, are real. Along similar lines, the answer to your question "Why is this process often depicted as being full of suffering and sorrow, when in fact liberation is the most wonderful and beautiful thing there is?" [sic] is extremely simple: because life is "full of suffering and sorrow," regardless whether and how "liberation" is acheived. There's no getting 'round that. But getting around decapitating two supporting heroes of a children's series and devestating millions of rabid fans? Piece of cake! Just my two-sickles, Caspen ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From xmezumiiru at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 18:44:31 2004 From: xmezumiiru at yahoo.com (An'nai Jiriki) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:44:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Great site for Egyptian mythology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040721184431.19233.qmail@web12203.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107173 Hate to burst bubbles, but as Religions academia, and Egyptian practitioner, I can say this website is academically unresearched. Information used from this site is about the equivalent of Budge, out of date. If you take a look at the 'awards' section, there are no credited Egyptology awards. I have most of the books listed in the book section, and aside from Faulkner, the books are loosely based on 'support only' facts that ignore other information. Aside from that, many of the dates are incorrect (ie, Spence's book is dated 1906). If one really looks, they will find the mythology is based more so on Roman mythology than Egyptian, but even then it takes intense searching. If anyone would like to know more information, please contact me off-list. Instead try: www.pantheon.org (they have most religions) http://www.geocities.com/tehuti_88/mythlinks.html & relating sites www.occultresearch.org/ (they have most major religions) or any of the websites of the Metropolitian Museum of Art (NY, USA), British Museum, Cairo Museum of Egyptology or the Tyoko Musuem of Art. Corrections to post: Egyptians never had elves in any form. The Isis myths cited are from Roman Mythology, not Egyptian, but this is the most cited references these days. Set was not evil, nor was he an equivalent of Typhoon. Ammut is a new one on me, perhaps this is another bastardized spelling of Apuat. PS: to Jakedjensen, this post is by no means a reflection on you. All I wanted to do was clear up misconceptions before we have wild rumors based on misinformation. --- jakedjensen wrote: > In recent days there has been a lot of talk about > Egyptian mythology, > so I thought I would post this excellent website > (about that very > topic). A few gods/goddesses that HP fans will find > interesting are: > Ptah (sometimes referred to as the Elf God/ Elf > king), Buto, Isis, > Seth, Osiris, and Horus (note the plotline of Isis, > Seth, Osiris, and > Horus...sound familiar?), and Ammut ("the Dead- > swallower"...hmmm)...just to name a few.... > > Anyway, here's the link: > > http://www.egyptianmyths.net/section-deities.htm > > Jake > > ===== "You irritate me. Kill me now." ~Javert, Les Miserables __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From libtax10375 at earthlink.net Wed Jul 21 15:06:45 2004 From: libtax10375 at earthlink.net (leeann mccullough) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:06:45 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: Wand Question Message-ID: <22212333.1090422405642.JavaMail.root@thecount.psp.pas.earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 107174 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Sheri wrote: > > Sorry if this has been discussed before but I can't figure it out. If > > the wand chooses the wizard, why can Ron and Neville use another > > person's wand? Iamvine added: > I always thought "the wand chooses the wizard" was probably Mr Ollivander's idea of > marketing - encouraging people not to use their ancestors' wands but to buy their own. Marny now: What Mr. Oleander says is "You'll never get such good results with another wizard's wand" (SS, Chapter 5 Dagon Ally, pg. 84 (Scholastic)), which is not exactly the same thing as saying "If you use another wizard's wand it won't work at all." Maybe you get more "oomph," more precision, something from a well-matched wand. And after all, neither Ron nor Neville is a champion wizard. Leeann Adds: I have always wondered about Ron and Neville's wands. They have both been fair wizards up till now. they both started at Hogwarts with a hand-me-down wand. JKR didn't say, and maybe I'm just imagining it, but Ron seemed to improve in POA and later. Not so much mention of him having trouble with spells and such. There is allot of talk about the quality of his "paper work". He and Harry are not so much book smart, but seem to be able to do the practical part OK. Anyway, I have been wondering ever since I first read OotP if Neville would greatly mature in year six with his "own" wand. He has the genetic factor going for him, maybe he just didn't have the right wand! From brenda-chaisson at rogers.com Wed Jul 21 15:07:53 2004 From: brenda-chaisson at rogers.com (luckdragon64) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:07:53 -0000 Subject: Sirius's Will Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107175 Who will inherit the Black family fortune and home now that Sirius is dead? Will he have made provisions for Harry to inherit as his Godson or will the cousins Bellatrix and Narcissa inherit? If the cousins inherit the home where will the Order of the Phoenix relocate to? I'm hoping Sirius has left it all to Harry including the flying motorbike. Wouldn't that tick off old Mrs. Black (portrait), Kreacher, and the evil cousins! "luckdragon" From tinainfay at msn.com Wed Jul 21 16:57:04 2004 From: tinainfay at msn.com (mrs_sonofgib) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:57:04 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's House? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107176 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Phil Boswell" wrote: > Was there anyone else for whom it has been *established* that there > was some debate? I know Neville took ages to be Sorted but I don't we > ever heard why. The Sorting Hat thought for a whole minute with Seamus. I wonder where else the Hat was considering? I'm betting Slytherin. ~tina From rhinobabies at hotmail.com Wed Jul 21 15:15:48 2004 From: rhinobabies at hotmail.com (coderaspberry77) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:15:48 -0000 Subject: Triumph in tragedy In-Reply-To: <20040721124702.1513.qmail@web25104.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107177 Hans: > Of course all this debating and exploring the depth of HP increases the > tension as we all wait for the Great End. To me the most satisfactory end > would indeed be what I've said before: after all Harry's suffering, after > all the tragedy and tribulations, after his defeat of Voldemort and the > Death Eaters by an act of love or forgiveness (I can't imagine what yet), he > will be faced with the final choice: to enter the rapturous ecstasy of > Nirvana beyond the Gate of Saturn, or to yield to the overwhelming > compassion for the rest of the human race, by becoming gate-keeper for those > who wish to go the Alchemical Path that Harry has completed. Only the second > option would satisfy me: Harry ending up as ferryman to the first years at > Hogwarts. Hans, More and more, I subscribe to this (or some permutation of this) being the end that we will see. If done right (and with JKR writing these books the way she has, you know it will be), it'll be the best ending possible, even for those that may want to see something drastically different. I think the way this would be viewed would be "tragedy" by those who've yet to walk the alchemical path (i.e. the same way Draco sees Hagrid as some type of "servant"), but "triumph" by those who have or are on the path to understanding. Does that make sense? I do have one question about the whole alchemical pattern, though - where does Snape fit into it? I of course see Hagrid, Dumbledore, Sirius, Ron and Hermione, but does Snape portray any specific role in the alchemical wedding? If so, please enlighten me. Thanks! Geoffrey Hooper (my real name), who was too much of a whiner to be picked for the Gryffindor Quidditch team. ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From brenda-chaisson at rogers.com Wed Jul 21 17:18:45 2004 From: brenda-chaisson at rogers.com (luckdragon64) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:18:45 -0000 Subject: Snape a vampire? (was Snape's Patronus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107178 Jim F.: > JKR has said flat-out he's not. > > There's characteristics of vampires that made it seem unlikely that > Snape was such, even without JKR's word. Actually if I have the right quotation you are referring to JKR when asked if Snape is a vampire says, "Erm...I don't think so". This is not a flat out denial! She seems to hedge around a bit rather than saying "No!" Maybe a direct answer would have given too much away. "luckdragon" From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Wed Jul 21 18:58:05 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 18:58:05 -0000 Subject: Vampire (was Snape/vampire) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107179 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Message 107116 nadjjaa > What are the characteristics of JKR's vampires, anyway? Does >anyone know??? That would help to formulate my opinion! "K": Here are some references I have found in the books. It is possible there are others that I have missed. Now these references are only those that actually have the word *vampire* in them. There are also hints about vampires which I won't list at this time. ~*SORCERER'S STONE*~ CH 5 I've g-got to p-pick up a new b-book on vampires, m-myself." He (Professor Quirrell) looked terrified at the very thought. pg 70 They say he (Professor Quirrell) met vampires in the Black Forest... pg 71 Vampires? Hags? Harry's head was swimming. pg 71 His (Professor Quirrell) classroom smelled strongly of garlic, which everyone said was to ward off a vampire he'd met in Romania and was afraid would be coming back to get him one of these days. pg 134 ~*CHAMBER OF SECRETS*~ US Version CH 4 SECOND YEAR STUDENTS WILL REQUIRE: Voyages with Vampires by Gilderoy Lockhart pg 44 CH 6 Harry and Ron sat down at the Gryffindor table next to Hermione, who had her copy of Voyages with Vampires propped open against a milk jug. pg 86 Hermione closed Voyages with Vampires and looked down at the top of Ron's head. pg 88 Hermione sat down on a stone step and buried her nose in Voyages with Vampires again. pg 96 Ron whipped out his Spellotaped wand, but Hermione shut Voyages with Vampires with a snap and whispered, "Look out!" pg 97 ~*PRISONER OF AZKABAN~* UK Version CH 3 Harry had never met a vampire, but he had seen pictures of them in his Defence Against the Dark Arts (DADA) classes, and Black, with his waxy white skin, looked just like one. pg 34 CH 10 ...examining a tray of blood-flavoured lollipops...'Urgh, no, Harry won't want one of those, they're for vampires, I expect, ' Hermione was saying. pg 147 CH 14 'Er - not now - I was going to go to the library and do that vampire essay for Lupin-' pg 204 'Harry, Ron, come with me, I need a word about my vampire essay. Excuse us, Severus.' pg 213 Ch 22 'Wonder what they'll give us next year?' said Seamus Finnigan gloomily. "Maybe a vampire,' suggested Dean Thomas hopefully. pg 313 ~*GOBLET OF FIRE*~ US Version CH 9 "but I'm a vampire hunter. I've killed about nine so far____'. pg 126 CH 10 "Last week she was saying we're wasting our time quibbling about cauldron thickness, when we should be stamping out vampires! As if it wasn't specifically stated in paragraph twelve of the Guidelines for theTreatment of Non-Wizard Part-Human ---(Percy) pg 147 ~*ORDER OF THE PHOENIX*~ US Version CH 20 "Ran inter a couple o' mad trolls on the Polish border, an' I had a sligh' disagreement with a vampire in a pub in Minsk..." pg 426 CH 31 He was finding it very difficult to remember names and kept confusing dates. He simply skipped question four: In your opinion, did wand legislation contribute to, or lead to better control of, goblin riots of the eighteenth century? thinking that he would go back to it if he had time at the end. He had a stab at question five: How was the Statue of Secrecy breached in 1749 and what measures were introduced to prevent a recurrence? but had a nagging suspicion that he had missed several important points. He had a feeling vampires had come into the story somewhere... pg 725/us FB The centaurs objected to some of the creatures with whom they were asked to share "being" status, such as hags and vampires... FB/xiii QTTA Translyvania has been mentioned. QTTA mentions a Quidditch team from Translyvania and vampire bats. ~~The final between Transylvania and Flanders has gone down in history as the most violent of all time and many of the fouls then recorded had never been seen before-for instance, the transfiguration of a Chaser into a polecat, the attempted decapitation of a Keeper with a broadsword, and the release, from under the robes of the Translyvanian Captain, of a hundred blood- sucking vampire bats. pg 40~~ In short: SS There are books on vampires. pg 70 Vampires are in the Black Forest. pg 71 The kids believe garlic will ward off vampires. pg 134 COS They are studied. pg 44 Hermione seems to enjoy reading about them. pgs 86,88,96,97 POA They are studied in the Dark Arts class. pg 34 They have waxy, white skin. pg 34 Kids know there are vampires around. pg 319 GOF There are vampire hunters and some believe it is a noble job. pgs 125-126 Some believe vampires should be stamped out. pg 147 OOP A vampires was in a pub. pg 426 A vampire was in Minsk. pg 426 Vampires were on the O.W.L. test. pg 725 FB Centaurs object to them. FB/xiii *************************************************** "K": It is interesting that vampire related events actually did occur in 1749. ~He had a stab at question five: How was the Statue of Secrecy breached in 1749 and what measures were introduced to prevent a recurrence? but had a nagging suspicion that he had missed several important points. He had a feeling vampires had come into the story somewhere... pg 725/us 1. A Frenchman named Buffon published a "Natural History," 2. Vampires of Hungary (extracted from "Treaty on the appearances of Spirits etc...") , of CALMET Dom Augustin - 17 (Some date this in 1746) ~*But which are the origins of the term "vampire"? And well, the term "vampire" was used the first time by the poet Ossenfelder (Der Vampir), who was published in a German review.But the door was really opened by very an other person, namely the abbot b??n??dictain Don Augustin Calmet, ??x??g??te biblical very famous. This one opened the dance with its "Treaty on the appearances of the Spirits and the Vampires, or the Ghosts, of Hungary, of Moravie...". It was published in 1749 (and republished in 1986 per Jerome Millon, editor). In this work, Don Augustin Calmet takes very with serious the vampires. Note: Voltaire will quote in 1764: "All the members of the clergy are vampires". ~*The word?vampyr? appears since 1748 in a poem d?Ossenfelder: Der Vampyr ?, published in a German review. But c?est an abbot Benedictine, Dom Augustin where it seems to very take with the serious l?existence vampires. D?o?? shingling counterpart d?un Voltaire for which the vampires is primarily the members of the Clergy (? Dictionary Philosophical ?, article on l?absolution, article " Vampire " , 1764). ~*However, Dom Augustine Calmet, a well respected French theologian and scholar, put together a carefully thought out treatise in 1746 which said vampires did exist. This had considerable influence on other scholars at the time.http://innocent.hothost.tv/id30.htm One of the few important authors who worked at the topic of vampirism was the French Benedictine monk Dom Augustin Calmet (1672-1757). The German version of his essay is titled "Verhandlung und Erl?uterung der Materi, von Erscheinungen der Geisteren, und der so genannten Vampiren, oder zur?ckgekommene Verstorbenen in Ungarn, Moravia etc." Calmet was working on the differentiation between Vampires and common ghosts and demons. Calmet was a very openminded person who asked himself whether vampires really are dead, how they manage to escape grave and which kind of energy their body needs. He came to the conclusion that in spite of his rather evil nature a vampire is a god-created being. He also said that being a pagan cannot be the reason for becoming a vampire since otherwise all Romans and Greeks who worshipped diverse gods would have become vampires. http://www.geocities.com/calliope_demarquis/history.html ~*Between 1749 and 1756, Pope Beno??t XIV exposes vampirism, then retracts. The rationalism becomes stronger, the minds are less prone to superstition. ****************************************************** "K": I do believe vampires will play a role in the Potter books. Whether that vampire/half-vampire is Voldemort, Dumbledore, Snape, Sirius Black, or some other I don't know. I'd say a half-vampire will be the main one we will see. It fits in with the whole story. ~"Apparently she loathes part-humans. "So what are Umbridge's lessons like? Sirius interrupted. "Is she training you all to kill half- breeds? (Sirius) oop/ch 14/pg 302/us ~The centaurs objected to some of the creatures with whom they were asked to share "being" status, such as hags and vampires... FB/xiii ~JKR: From the beginning of Philosopher's Stone, prejudice is a very strong theme. It is plausible that Harry enters the world wide- eyed: everything will be wonderful and it's the sort of place where injustices don't happen. Then he finds out that it does happen and it's a shock to him. He finds out that he is a half-blood: to a wizard like Lucius Malfoy, he will never be a true wizard, because his mother was of Muggle parentage. It's a very important theme. http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/fall00- bbc-newsround.html "K" "I love a good whodunnit and my passion is plot construction. Readers loved to be tricked, but not conned," Rowling says... From lszydlowski at hotmail.com Wed Jul 21 17:56:41 2004 From: lszydlowski at hotmail.com (szydlowskil) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:56:41 -0000 Subject: Something wrong with this Fudge In-Reply-To: <96773c880407201018327aec1f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107180 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, James Lawlor wrote: > Lynette > >I think Wormtail 'ratted' to Fudge, not Voldemort, and Fudge is > > actually the one who revealed the Potter's location. > > James: > Hmm, I don't think so - I doubt the Fidelius Charm works that way. It seems to be that *only* the Secret Keeper can divulge the information (perhaps only willfully as well). If anyone who had been told the Secret could also go and tell it to anyone else, there would be little> point in the Charm in the first place. This is supported by the fact that for Harry to get into Grimmauld Place, he had to read the slip of paper from Dumbledore. If someone other than the Secret Keeper can divulge the Secret, Moody would have simply told Harry instead of risking writing it down and possibly having the paper fall into the wrong hands. So I'm afraid that rather damages that part of your theory. ^_~ > > - James Lawlor > jlawlor at g... Not completely damaged....If Peter told Fudge, Fudge could have suggested Peter give this information to some important people Fudge thought should hear it, to the benefit of the wizarding community, of course. You see, this also lets Peter off as a conniving, unspeakably foul traitor to his friends. I still have a shred of faith in Peter, who may have been gullable, but I still find it difficult to believe someone who was a companion of Remus, James and Sirius all those years was capable of seeking out Voledmort (or the Death Eaters and being introduced to him) and turning his friends in. I remain convinced Fudge was at Godric's Hollow and is,in any event, a tainted politician even if not partially responsible for the Potter's murder. Lynette From deb_mathews at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 21 18:49:36 2004 From: deb_mathews at sbcglobal.net (lilysphoenix) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 18:49:36 -0000 Subject: Snape a vampire? (was Snape's Patronus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107181 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: > JKR has said flat-out he's not. When has JKR said flat out that he's not a Vampire? I've only read a comment where someone asked her if Snape "had any connection with Vampires," and her response was, "Erm...I don't think so..." This sounds like she was skirting the issue to me. He can still be a Vampire without having connections to other Vampires. I find the fact that Lupin assigned a Vampire essay right after Snape's Werewolf essay, AND made sure to mention it to Snape right in front of Harry, very suspicious. As for Snape being out in daylight, if he can brew a potion to keep Lupin from transforming during a full moon, I'm sure that there is something for a Vampire. Debra, who agrees with Gina. From dklopp at ptd.net Wed Jul 21 18:31:38 2004 From: dklopp at ptd.net (Diane Klopp) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 18:31:38 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's howler, Dumbledore and Petunia, (was Re: New JKR FAQ Poll: Which is significant?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107182 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "elfundeb2" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Shannon wrote: > > > I always > > thought it was odd that Harry wouldn't have recognized Dumbledore's voice > > immediately, though I guess it could have sounded very different from the > > Dumbledore Harry knows. > > In fact, I think she's been kept quite well informed. Her statement > about Dementors, for example, seems too specific (and her response > to Vernon's question too "jerky") to be merely a random thought she > remembers hearing someone mention 15 years ago. Diane here: I always thought after DD left Harry on the Dursley's doorstep with a note DD would have been in more contact with Petunia. For example, if there was any kind of binding agreement with accepting Harry into their home, DD probably would have been present for her answer (Vernon was at work at the time and Petunia surely wouldn't mention his visit). And the whole arrangement with Mrs. Figg keeping Harry during the Dursley's holidays was odd. I can't imagine the Dursley's handing Harry over to a muggle when he could possibly perform magic at any moment. DD must have said something to Petunia to assure her Mrs. Figg was a safe choice. Just my two knuts. Diane From patientx3 at aol.com Wed Jul 21 19:56:29 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:56:29 -0000 Subject: Fudge: Evil or what? The evil of cowardice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107183 >> I have to disagree here, too. It's probable that the Dementors have been in communication with Voldemort for some time, and it's his will being done here; and the Dementors may have their own agenda as well.<< HunterGreen: That is very possible. Although, how would they know to jump on Barty Jr. like that? (I'm still wondering how Fudge got a hold of a dementer that quickly). >> I don't think Fudge developed his ill will towards Harry until Harry started disturbing his life in the second half of PoA. << Open ill will, yes (because clearly he has no problem with Harry at the beginning of PoA). But if he had been in communication with Lucius, and had decided that getting rid of Harry will be helpful when Voldemort comes back, then its possible. Fudge is going after Harry in OotP for a slightly different reason. >> I wouuld love to see how Fudge - or Umbridge, for that matter - communicates with the Dementors. << Me too. I wonder if they talk, or if there's some other way he communicates with them. And do they know he's in authority? From pt4ever at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 19:58:21 2004 From: pt4ever at yahoo.com (JoAnna) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:58:21 -0000 Subject: Remember my last, Petunia! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107184 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Anastasia" wrote: > Well, if you happen to get a letter dropped on your head with your > name and address on it, what do you suggest? Right, that the content > of the letter is meant for you. Then why "Remember my last, PETUNIA?" > The speaker seems to be familiar enough with Harry's aunt to call > her by her name only. DD seems not to be the man to do that if he > didn't know her well enough. Does he know her that well? > I think that "Petunia" was added on just because Vernon seems to be in the habit of opening other people's letters, regardless of whom they're addressed to. Remember in SS when he open's Harry's Hogwarts letter? I think DD just wanted Petunia to be 100% that the message was indeed for *her.* Besides - "REMEMBER MY LAST, MRS. DURSLEY!" just doesn't have the same "oomph." :) - JoAnna From silmariel at telefonica.net Tue Jul 20 20:08:25 2004 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (silmariel) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 22:08:25 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's howler, Dumbledore and Petunia, (was Re: New JKR FAQ Poll: Which is significant?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200407202208.25581.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 107185 Deb/elfundeb2: > Heh. Since Harry did not recognize the voice, I assumed it was > *not* Dumbledore who sent the Howler. As a result, what I thought > was odd was the fact that JKR referred to it as "Dumbledore's > Howler" (though it makes sense if she's quoting a fan question). > I'm half expecting the answer to be "What makes everyone think > Dumbledore sent it?" You might be looking for this: (OoP ch37, 737) (Bloomsbury) [...]Your aunt knows this. I explained what I had done in the letter I left, with you, on her doorstep. She knows that allowing you houseroom may well have kept you alive for the past fifteen years.' 'Wait,' said Harry. 'Wait a moment.' He sat up straighter in his chair, staring at Dumbledore. 'You sent that Howler. You told her to remember - it was your voice -' 'I thought,' said Dumbledore, inclining his head slightly, 'that she might need reminding of the pact she had sealed by taking you. I suspected the Dementor attack might have awoken her to the dangers of having you as a surrogate son.' ---- He does not specifically say yes, but I thought he was admitting to have sent in, why he did sent it and that 'the last' was a letter. If there are hidden meanings, that should be interesting to find. Carolina From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 21 20:19:18 2004 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 21:19:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Triumph in tragedy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040721201918.70470.qmail@web25108.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107186 --- coderaspberry77 wrote: >>More and more, I subscribe to this (or some permutation of this) being the end that we will see. If done right it'll be the best ending possible, even for those that may want to see something drastically different. I think the way this would be viewed would be "tragedy" by those who've yet to walk the alchemical path but "triumph" by those who have or are on the path to understanding. Does that make sense?<< Hans: Absolutely! coderaspberry77: >>I do have one question about the whole alchemical pattern, though - where does Snape fit into it? I of course see Hagrid, Dumbledore, Sirius, Ron and Hermione, but does Snape portray any specific role in the alchemical wedding? If so, please enlighten me. Thanks!<< Hans: I've been waiting for that question with trepidation actually; I thought someone would ask that soon. The answer is I don't know. Not that I'm ashamed; I'll be the first to humbly admit that HP is of such incredible depth that I feel like a blindfolded person walking through a forest where every now and then I get to lift the blindfold up for a brief glimpse. But that's what creates the excitement! The fun is in the discovery and not the knowledge. It would be boring if I understood the whole thing from A to Z. And after all this time I've only just discovered what Sirius Black symbolises. The only thing I can say about Snape is this. He brings to mind a statement by Jacob Boehme, the 16th century German philosopher and visionary. Boehme wrote magnificent books about the Fall, and about the differences between the divine world and our world, or "The World of Wrath" as he called it. However his vision conflicted with the views of the Lutheran church at the time, and in his village in Eastern Germany there was a Pastor Richter who condemned Boehme in the most vile languages. He used to abuse Boehme publicly in church services and tried to get the authorities to silence Boehme and stop him from spreading his liberating philosophy. In other words he made life hell for Boehme. But Boehme was thankful to Richter and said that he was the anvil on which God hammered Boehme into the right shape. Snape? Is he the anvil upon which Harry is being hammered into shape? Other people have made similar suggestions. From Snape's point of view I think he is testing Harry to make or break him. I see Snape as thinking, "If this little B***** is really the Chosen one to defeat Voldemort I'm going to test him out. If he is genuine he'll survive. If not he'll bite the dust." So what do you think of that? All this is pure speculation and not very alchemical, but it's all I've got. Also read the alchemical chapters in John Granger's books. Thanks for your post! Hans ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From hunibuni22 at webtv.net Wed Jul 21 20:20:26 2004 From: hunibuni22 at webtv.net (tjbailey24) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:20:26 -0000 Subject: Remember my last, Petunia! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107187 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Anastasia" wrote: > Anastasia: > I just read over the passage with Petunia getting a strange howler > many of us wonder about. > > "It's [the Howler] adressed to ME, Vernon, look! [followed by exact > address]" > "Remember my last, Petunia!" > > Well, if you happen to get a letter dropped on your head with your > name and address on it, what do you suggest? Right, that the content > of the letter is meant for you. Then why "Remember my last, PETUNIA?" > The speaker seems to be familiar enough with Harry's aunt to call > her by her name only. DD seems not to be the man to do that if he > didn't know her well enough. Does he know her that well? > > As far as I can remember, DD admits to have SENT the howler. But > that doesn't mean that "my" refers to him, does it? > > You see, I'm very confused. I just cannot come up with any decent > theory of a person calling Harry's aunt "Petunia" except of... Lily! > But what could Lily have told her? That she cast a spell to harm > Dudley if Petunia ever harmed Harry? Some prophecy? > > HELP!!!! > Anastasia I like the thought behind your post, Anastasia, but I don't think that the howler DD sent to Petunia could be from Lily... I would think that Harry would have recognized his mothers own voice as he hears her death screams in his head and her "echo" spoke to him in GoF. I find it very interesting that Petunia knows what dementors are and her explaination of her hearing James tell Lily about them makes no sense... first of all, where exactly would James be with Lily that Petunia would be there.. and whyever would casual conversation turn to talk of prison guards?? I read a suggestion on here that maybe Petunia was a squib... perhaps she was.. perhaps she didnt think Lily was a freak, but envied her? Something to ponder! --Tara From hunibuni22 at webtv.net Wed Jul 21 20:22:24 2004 From: hunibuni22 at webtv.net (tjbailey24) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:22:24 -0000 Subject: Remember my last, Petunia! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107188 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Anastasia" wrote: > Anastasia: > I just read over the passage with Petunia getting a strange howler > many of us wonder about. > > "It's [the Howler] adressed to ME, Vernon, look! [followed by exact > address]" > "Remember my last, Petunia!" > > Well, if you happen to get a letter dropped on your head with your > name and address on it, what do you suggest? Right, that the content > of the letter is meant for you. Then why "Remember my last, PETUNIA?" > The speaker seems to be familiar enough with Harry's aunt to call > her by her name only. DD seems not to be the man to do that if he > didn't know her well enough. Does he know her that well? > > As far as I can remember, DD admits to have SENT the howler. But > that doesn't mean that "my" refers to him, does it? > > You see, I'm very confused. I just cannot come up with any decent > theory of a person calling Harry's aunt "Petunia" except of... Lily! > But what could Lily have told her? That she cast a spell to harm > Dudley if Petunia ever harmed Harry? Some prophecy? > > HELP!!!! > Anastasia I like the thought behind your post, Anastasia, but I don't think that the howler DD sent to Petunia could be from Lily... I would think that Harry would have recognized his mothers own voice as he hears her death screams in his head and her "echo" spoke to him in GoF. I find it very interesting that Petunia knows what dementors are and her explaination of her hearing James tell Lily about them makes no sense... first of all, where exactly would James be with Lily that Petunia would be there.. and whyever would casual conversation turn to talk of prison guards?? I read a suggestion on here that maybe Petunia was a squib... perhaps she was.. perhaps she didnt think Lily was a freak, but envied her? Something to ponder! --Tara From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 21 20:28:44 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:28:44 -0000 Subject: Mothers and Fathers (was: Re: James gave his life, why no protection from him?) In-Reply-To: <000401c46dad$063409e0$6601a8c0@DocSavage> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107189 Becki's thought: > > > Perhaps it goes to the saying that there is no stronger love > > > than a mother has for her child. Iggy here: > > I dunno... I've always had a problem with that statement... > > especially since becoming a father. Love a father shows may come > > across differently than that a mother shows, but I don't feel > > that it's any less than a mothers by so much as a single mote. > This got me to thinking a little bit. 95%+ of the time I hear > that "there is nothing stronger than a mother's love," it's coming > from a mother, or (at least) a woman who wants to be a mother. > This is not meant to be a sexist comment in any way... It's simply > meant to help illustrate a point. You frequently hear about "the > purity/strength/devotion/holiness/etc. of a mother's love," but > almost never hear anything about a father's love. SSSusan now: You know, Iggy, this makes me think of another of my pet peeves in this general subject area. HOW many people have suggested that *Molly* will betray The Order because of her love/concern for one of her children? And then contrast that to how many people have suggested that *Arthur* will betray The Order in the same fashion.... Interesting, isn't it? If someone wants to argue that there is something in Molly's *specific* temperament which makes this likely AND that that same thing is *NOT* in Arthur's specific temperament, then I'll listen. But as it's been stated the times that I've seen it suggested, it seems more to do with the idea that a mother can't help herself--she loves her children SO much--she'd do anything to save them, even if it means betraying others. I don't buy that just a *mother* would fall into this trap; I'd argue that *any* parent who loves his/her child is susceptible to this. So I guess that's my way of saying I understand where you're coming from, Iggy. :-) Siriusly Snapey Susan From pcaehill2 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 21 20:54:55 2004 From: pcaehill2 at sbcglobal.net (pcaehill2) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:54:55 -0000 Subject: JKR's narrative strategy (Was: Whose point of view ?) In-Reply-To: <96773c8804072109462c91e78d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107190 > Pam wrote: > > I also have thought that the Little Hangleton scene may be the > > narrator presenting Harry's dream (remember his link to Voldemort), sort of like a television screen in his mind. In this sense, the scene isn't deviating from Harry's POV at all; just letting us into his mind as usual, but without telling us initially that it's his dream. > James replied: > I'll challenge you on this one. :D It seems to me that the POV in >this chapter is indeed the POV of Frank Bryce. Why? Because Harry's >dreams are always from Voldemort's point of view - as far as we >know he's never had a dream from the POV of someone close to >Voldemort or interfearing with Voldemort. The chapter, as I recall, >starts from Frank's point of view and at the very end merges into >Harry's only as Voldemort kills Frank and Harry wakes up. And Pam responds: As soon as I sent it, I started thinking of objections to my post!! You're right; taken alone, it's definitely from Frank's POV (the history of the Riddle family & his own past, his perception of trouble at the manor that night, etc.). OTOH (and there's *always* an 'other hand'!!), who's to say that Voldemort (via Nagini, perhaps?) couldn't have been aware of Frank from the start, delved into his past mind, and then tracked his movements until he climbed the stairs. Then (and only then) could the first chapter have been Harry's dream/shared Voldemort mind. (But I admit, it's a stretch.) Pam From silmariel at telefonica.net Tue Jul 20 20:59:30 2004 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (silmariel) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 22:59:30 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Still wondering why Snape trusts DD! (was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200407202259.30792.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 107191 > Carolina asked: > Just a question, do you think occlumency is basic or advanced > DE training or was acquired before joining the merry party? > Carol replied: > It can't be DE training at all or Voldemort's legilimency would be > useless as a means of controlling his DEs. Occlumency isn't *basic* > anything: it's evidently a very rare skill that no one except Snape or > Dumbledore is capable of teaching Harry. Agreed. It was only a joke. It can run in some families (after all someone teached it to DD and Voldie) so the knowledge is not spreaded. > Moreover, he can't know that Snape is an occlumens or Snape would be unable > to spy on him or observe him or attend meetings (whatever he's doing) > without giving himself away. I can't agree with this. If Voldemort is using Snape as a spy, he should know that he needs to be an occlumens to do that work. One can't be under the nose of a legilimens for 14 years without being an occlumens and Voldemort should know, or should be asking himself why DD hasn't detected him in 14 years if he is not one. > My guess is that Dumbledore taught occlumency to Snape when Snape > first began spying for him. No idea. But it makes sense. Anyway, IMO occlumency is a skill that suits Snape, I mean as I see him as a character, maintaining his thoughs private is a priority, and occlumency would be a desired skill for him having wars going on or not. Carolina From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 21 21:31:46 2004 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:31:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Books 6 & 7 - tragedy or triumph? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040721213146.98012.qmail@web25102.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107192 --- caspenzoe wrote: >>You have some very fascinating ideas Hans. However, I think you are over-applying them. Ron and Hermione will not be decapitated in any literal sense. I very much doubt either will even die. Since you've insisted on assigning probabilities to your predictions (without bothering to tell us how you came up with your - precision implied, but not supported - odds), I'll respond in kind: probability - both my predictions - 99.99999%. JKR knew when she planned the series that the books would be read, as they in fact are, despite the remarkably high interest shown by adults, primarily by children. In addition, fascinating as the alchemical analogies are, and as convinced as I am that they probably are, in fact, the key to understanding the overall plan of the series, you seem to have missed the point to some extent: the process of transformation itself, in alchemy in it's esoteric sense - which is all that remains of alchemy as a subject of study today - in any case - let alone in the Harry Potter series & Potterverse, IS and always has been purely symbolic. Sales and our author's reputation, among other things, are real. Along similar lines, the answer to your question "Why is this process often depicted as being full of suffering and sorrow, when in fact liberation is the most wonderful and beautiful thing there is?" [sic] is extremely simple: because life is "full of suffering and sorrow," regardless whether and how "liberation" is achieved. There's no getting 'round that. But getting around decapitating two supporting heroes of a children's series and devastating millions of rabid fans? Piece of cake!<< Hans: My sincere thanks for your post, Caspen. I really do very much prefer to be contradicted than ignored. First of all I couldn't tell you how I came up with my probabilities. It's just "gut feeling". No mathematical conjuring. It's not a matter of "not bothering to do it"; if I knew I would tell. I do agree with you that what I've suggested does seem very improbable in view of the objections you've named. But all I can do is repeat the reasons I gave in an earlier post to someone else who thought decapitation impossible. Jo was 24 when she received the Inspiration. Remember: Harry walked fully formed into her life in June 1990. The whole, complete story formed in her mind in those hours. Obviously minor things she invented later, but the foundation on which the story is built was laid on that single day. Furthermore I assert the story is not hers but was inspired by people who have walked the Path of Liberation to a Good End. Jo has repeatedly expressed her surprise at how popular the books have become. She never dreamed that she would sell 260 million volumes worldwide. She has often asserted she's written the story for herself. And I repeat: she has said that the story is set rock-solid. All the clues are laid; it's too late to change anything. Jo is COMMITTED to this story. Don't forget she doesn't need the money, so the point you raise about sales is invalid. Her reputation - yes, that's important to her. But what's more important to her I think is the story she NEEDS to tell. Remember how she said that meeting Harry was very similar to falling in love? We must realise the POWER of this story and the obligation Jo feels to telling it no matter what. Why does this story need telling? Because humanity is on the brink of the precipice! You're right, life is full of suffering and sorrow, but not only that, there are junctures in time when things come to a head. This is the time of 9/11; this is the time of terrorism and Aids and human trafficking and drug barons with economies bigger than nations and ... need I go on? Perhaps the biggest crisis of all is the spiritual crisis humanity is facing. Here in Holland you can buy churches by the dozen to convert into flats. The time of the masses being led by authorities (spiritual or otherwise) is gone. People don't want to be told what to do any longer. They want to develop their own spirituality - from within. People are also fed up with materialism. I'm just grabbing a few main points here and there without being complete. Against this backdrop of world encompassing evil and shrinking churches is the Inspiration which this woman has accepted as a most Holy Child. She has obviously promised to herself to nurture and bring it to maturity irrespective of the consequences. She will bring Harry Potter to the world no matter what it costs her. And I feel certain, totally certain, that this Child she is giving to the world in seven parts is what the world encompassed by evil and shrinking churches needs right now. Do you see how the world needs a thorough shake-up for any kind of new idea to work? Only a bombshell will make any difference! And I think that's what Harry Potter is. On the one hand we have 9/11 and on the other we have Harry Potter. That's how I see it. OK, to those people who see Harry Potter as a simple children's book what I'm saying is beneath contempt. But Harry Potter, I assert most assiduously, is a blast from Heaven to wake humanity up before it's too late. Why do you think this story is so powerful? Why does it appeal so strongly to young people? Because it's inspired! The elder brothers and sisters who have inspired this story know exactly what humanity needs. And that's not detracting anything from Jo. She's a genius, and that's obviously why she was chosen to deliver the message. But the point of all this is: to be able to deliver the bombshell there's going to have to be some pretty earth-shattering things happening at the end. There are going to have to be deaths and shocking events. Only then will the story have any impact on a humanity bogged down in doubt and despair. However I feel sure, as does Jen Reese, that there will be no gratuitous violence. And I feel sure with Iris that any violence that does occur will be told with the precision of a scalpel. But what needs to be told WILL be told no matter what the consequences for Jo, Bloomsbury, or Warner Bros. And what needs to be told will be for the benefit of humanity, of that I'm 100% sure. If Ron and Hermione need to be decapitated then this will be told, but in such a way that we will all know why it's needed. The genius of Joanne Rowling will ensure we will accept it and understand it. Yes, exactly, Caspen, Alchemy is symbolical. Harry, Ron and Hermione are symbols of aspects of our own self. Before we can reach liberation part of us needs to die in order that another part of us can live in freedom for ever. If Ron and Hermione need to die it will be to live on in Harry as the embodiment of the Philosopher's Stone. Hans ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 21 21:38:38 2004 From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:38:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius's Will In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040721213838.13172.qmail@web25308.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107193 luckdragon64 wrote: "luckdragon" wrote Who will inherit the Black family fortune and home now that Sirius is dead? Will he have made provisions for Harry to inherit as his Godson or will the cousins Bellatrix and Narcissa inherit? If the cousins inherit the home where will the Order of the Phoenix relocate to? I'm hoping Sirius has left it all to Harry including the flying motorbike. Wouldn't that tick off old Mrs. Black (portrait), Kreacher, and the evil cousins! Udderpd here You left out Tonks' mum, another cousin, however JKR can make up any set of rules she wants so almost anything is possible. TTFN Udder Pen Dragon ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Wed Jul 21 19:17:16 2004 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:17:16 -0000 Subject: Incomplete Prophecy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107194 My apologies if this has been covered before, but I have not managed to find any reference to it. It appears to me that Dumbledore did not allow Harry to hear the whole prophecy. Looking at both of Trelawney's prophecies; Prophecy No.1 - Harry heard this prophecy first hand. This prophecy is grammatically correct, with full stops and capital letters where necessary. Prophecy No.2 - Harry heard this prophecy second hand. If this prophecy is complete, then it is grammatically very poor. It consists of one long sentence, containing several 'ands', and doesn't make complete sense. Considering that JKR was an English teacher and that she has stated that she took great care writing the prophecy, then it seems that what Dumbledore is allowing Harry to hear are merely snippets of the prophecy. There is also the possibility that Dumbledore was actually responsible for breaking the prophecy, since he appears almost immediately after it is broken! Which then begs the question - Who has heard the prophecy in most detail; Harry or Voldemort? I was always confused by the fact that Voldemort spends the whole of OOTP trying to get hold of the prophecy, and yet when he encounters Harry, he attempts to kill him without a second thought! If the prophecy is supposed to be providing Voldemort with the knowledge of how to defeat Harry, then how can he be so reckless in trying to kill Harry, when he is still unclear about what the prophecy says! Perhaps there is some other aspect to the prophecy that Voldemort has heard, but Harry (and the readers!) has not, and it is this that Voldemort wants toclarify! From hfleming8 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 20:15:24 2004 From: hfleming8 at yahoo.com (hfleming8) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:15:24 -0000 Subject: Sirius's Will In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107195 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "luckdragon64" wrote: > Who will inherit the Black family fortune and home now that Sirius > is dead? Will he have made provisions for Harry to inherit as his > Godson or will the cousins Bellatrix and Narcissa inherit? If the > cousins inherit the home where will the Order of the Phoenix > relocate to? I'm hoping Sirius has left it all to Harry including > the flying motorbike. Wouldn't that tick off old Mrs. Black > (portrait), Kreacher, and the evil cousins! I'm assuming provisions have been made for this eventuality. For some reason I feel the house will go to the "order", the money to Harry, the motorbike to Arthur (who loves everything muggle), and maybe something to Tonks, Ron and Hermione. After all he gave Ron Pigwidgeon to replace Scabbers, and Hermione is the "smartest witch of her age", according to Sirius. But then again it's JK's world and I'm only a visitor. From srae1971 at bellsouth.net Wed Jul 21 21:46:57 2004 From: srae1971 at bellsouth.net (Shannon) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:46:57 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's howler, Dumbledore and Petunia, (was Re: New JKR FAQ Poll: Which is significant?) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.1.6.1.20040720175450.00c58c20@mail.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.1.20040721172215.00c89320@mail.bellsouth.net> No: HPFGUIDX 107196 >Debbie said: > >Heh. Since Harry did not recognize the voice, I assumed it was >*not* Dumbledore who sent the Howler. As a result, what I thought >was odd was the fact that JKR referred to it as "Dumbledore's >Howler" (though it makes sense if she's quoting a fan question). I didn't think it was Dumbledore throughout the whole book, either, because I assumed Harry would recognize Dumbledore's voice right away. But Dumbledore says he sent it, at the end of OotP. Or at least, he doesn't disabuse Harry of the notion. He doesn't actually *say* that he sent it. From the US version of OotP pg 836: "You sent that Howler. You told her to remember--it was your voice --" "I thought," said Dumbledore, inclining his head slightly, "that she might need reminding of the pact she sealed by taking you. I suspected the dementor attack might have awoken her to the dangers of having you as a surrogate son." >And while I have little to offer in speculation about who might have >sent the Howler, if not Dumbledore, I can readily imagine the >content of the sender's "last". Since the reason Harry was placed >with the Dursleys in the first place was to provide protection from >Voldemort ("While you can still call home the place where your >mother's blood dwells, there you cannot be touched or harmed by >Voldemort."), it seems likely that Petunia was informed of >Voldemort's return, and the resulting increased risk to Harry, and >possibly to herself. Last what though? That's what nags at me. I hope that Dumbledore, in the midst of his decision to finally tell Harry all this stuff at the end of the book, wouldn't still be keeping things from him. So for now I'll take it at face value that Dumbledore sent it. I want to know what it means. He said it was a reminder, but how? I do think that Petunia knows a great deal more than she lets on. So much about her just doesn't quite fit. >In fact, I think she's been kept quite well informed. Her statement >about Dementors, for example, seems too specific (and her response >to Vernon's question too "jerky") to be merely a random thought she >remembers hearing someone mention 15 years ago. Oh, I so completely agree! That whole exchange about the Dementors was, for me, not just a red flag but a huge sparkly flashing banner, along with bugles and trumpets and great wailing warning SIREN. haha It's completely unbelievable to me that she'd ever have been in a position to accidentally overhear a conversation about Dementors. Shannon [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eeyore6771 at comcast.net Wed Jul 21 22:33:23 2004 From: eeyore6771 at comcast.net (Pat) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:33:23 -0000 Subject: Doesn't Voldemort know about Snape's loyalty? In-Reply-To: <96773c8804072014491010ac07@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107197 Peter: > > I was reading PS/SS and it dawned on me--if Quirrell > > knew that Snape was loyal to Dumbledore, and Quirrell > > was possessed by Voldemort, wouldn't Voldemort know > > that Snape is in the OOTP? > > James said: > > snip, snip > He wouldn't know Snape is in the Order, > because I highly doubt that the teachers sit around in the lounge > discussing it. Not only would they not discuss it in front of an > outsider (Quirrel), but they really have no reason to (since Voldemort > isn't around, or so they think). > > Or, perhaps Voldemort already knows that Snape has betrayed him, in > which case the question still stands. > Pat here: The other point about the Order is that it apparently was disbanded from shortly after Voldemort's demise when the curse intended for Harry rebounded on him instead. It was only re-started at the end of Harry's 4th year when he (Harry) told them he had seen Voldemort's rebirth. So there would have been no reason for the staff (who don't all seem to be in the Order) to discuss it in the staff room. I have always wondered though about Voldemort overhearing the discussion between Snape and Quirrell. Is it worded so carefully that it can have more than one meaning, do you think? Or is that the evidence that Voldemort is referring to Snape in GOF when he says that a former Death Eater has left him forever and will be killed? Pat (hollylawrence67) From eeyore6771 at comcast.net Wed Jul 21 22:42:57 2004 From: eeyore6771 at comcast.net (Pat) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:42:57 -0000 Subject: Sirius's Will In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107198 luckdragon64 posted: > Who will inherit the Black family fortune and home now that Sirius > is dead? > Pat here: That's a very intriguing question. I think a lot of people hope that Harry will inherit the house. Instead of leaving the house to Harry, though, it might be wiser to leave it to Dumbledore, as the head of the Order--especially since he is the secret keeper. Pat (hollylawrence67) From ariston3344 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 23:02:14 2004 From: ariston3344 at yahoo.com (ariston3344) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:02:14 -0000 Subject: Narrative strategy and Harry's death In-Reply-To: <20040721140146.90376.qmail@web25110.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107199 I (ariston) wrote: > Any scene leading to Harry's death would obviously be THE > climax of the entire series -- it's almost unthinkable to me that > such a scene would not be told from Harry's POV. But if it is > told from his POV, how would JKR smoothly handle Harry's > death itself? Hans' response: > As I've said in my predictions in post 106899 I predict that Harry > will go through the Gate of Saturn. That's the arch with the veil. > It's a symbolic death, but at the same time very real from a > story point of view. It will obviously be quite simple to tell this > from Harry's POV. I think Harry will be able to return through the > gate because of some kind of magic. [...] ariston again: If Harry is able to come back to life after death, then that does more or less render the POV question moot. But I'm pretty sure that JKR has gone on record saying that a fundamental limitation in the Potterverse is that magic can't bring people back from the dead. Hm, let me see if I can find that... ah, here it is (from http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/1999/1099- connectiontransc.html ): --- Well, it would be nice, but I'll tell you something. You've raised a really interesting point there, Peter, because when I started writing the books, the first thing I had to decide was not what magic can do, but what it can't do. I had to set limits on it immediately and decide what the perimeters are. One of the most important things I decided was that magic cannot bring dead people back to life. That's one of the most profound things. The natural laws of death applies to wizards as it applies to Muggles and there is no returning once you're properly dead. You know, they might be able to save very close to death people better than we can, by magic. They have certain knowledge we don't, but once you're dead, you're dead. So, yeah, I'm afraid there will be no coming back for Harry's parents. --- -ariston From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 23:59:55 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:59:55 -0000 Subject: Snape a vampire? (was Snape's Patronus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107200 Lily: "When has JKR said flat out that he's not a Vampire? I've only read a comment where someone asked her if Snape "had any connection with Vampires," and her response was, "Erm...I don't think so..." This sounds like she was skirting the issue to me. He can still be a Vampire without having connections to other Vampires." "I find the fact that Lupin assigned a Vampire essay right after Snape's Werewolf essay, AND made sure to mention it to Snape right in front of Harry, very suspicious. As for Snape being out in daylight, if he can brew a potion to keep Lupin from transforming during a full moon, I'm sure that there is something for a Vampire." Isn't all that a bit tenuous? If an argument has to take that many twists and turns and wiggles, its probability gets less and less and less, doesn't it? Was Snape that good a potion brewer when he arrived at Hogwarts at age eleven? If you solve the "daylight problem" with a potion we've never heard of, we can explain anything, I guess. BTW, I might be a little squicked if I had to sit next to Snape at the staff dining table. I hypothesized once that Snape was a social phobic, formed by his tense unhappy home life and the torment he underwent at school. Here's what JKR has said recently about Snape: "Where as most of the character, like Snape for example, are very hard to love but there's a sort of ambiguity I think is probably the best word you can't quite decide, there's something rather sad about Snape as well, something very lonely..." People like that become filled with rage, as Snape is. It's a common enough life trajectory. Surf on over to the newsgroup alt.support.shyness and you'll see pent-up rage to take your breath away. If Snape's a vampire, it detracts from JKR's wisdom in giving us these rich characters. A young reader - and many an adult - can learn something about people and life observing these characters. Snape's a person, a complicated one, a truly nasty so-and-so who's full of demons, but on the right side. JKR is character-driven. Understand her wonderful, amazing characters, and you understand what's likely to happen. Tiny little snippets of text can lead the reader far, far astray. Jim Ferer From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 00:17:11 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 00:17:11 -0000 Subject: Sirius's Will In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107201 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "luckdragon64" wrote: > Who will inherit the Black family fortune and home now that Sirius > is dead? ...edited... > > "luckdragon" Asian_lovr2: Beyond that central mystery of Harry and Voldemort, the Black Estate is one that I am most eager to see the resolution to. I know HOW I want it resolved, and in fact, have several scenerios that favor Harry. But first, let's look at the core problem. No one really knows that Sirius is dead, and right now, it to the Order's great disadvantage for that knowledge to get out. As long as no suspicious are raised about Sirius, then the Order can continue to use the house. But once, the world at large discovers, the House and the Money become of great interest to many people. So for now, Dumbledore will keep this information quiet. I think Dumbledore will let information out in a controlled manner, doing so in a way that allows him to manipulate the situation to his best advantage. First, Sirius's name needs to be cleared. Then Dumbledore needs to know how the Estate is going to be resolved before he reveals Sirius's death, and hopefully, he will be able to work it so the resolution is to his advantage. Only then will he reveal Sirius's death thereby allowing claims to be made against the Estate. In the UK, preference is usually given to the closest living first born male heir. Since there is no direct decendancy of the Black line, it moves sideways. That means Draco Malfoy, son of Narcissa Black-Malfoy. When the time comes, I foresee a stuggle between Harry and Draco over who get the money and house, and I see this stuggle occuring even if Sirius left a Will naming Harry. Which I think will make for some interesting sub-plots. Again, this is one of the most intriquing plot lines that I'm looking forward too. Steve/asian_lovr2 From jferer at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 00:36:04 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 00:36:04 -0000 Subject: Fudge: Evil or what? The evil of cowardice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107202 Jim (me): "I wouuld love to see how Fudge - or Umbridge, for that matter - communicates with the Dementors." HunterGreen:"Me too. I wonder if they talk, or if there's some other way he communicates with them. And do they know he's in authority?" This is interesting. They don't seem to talk, but they do intrude into minds, they have a sense of it; and, if Fudge, learning that Barty Jr. is alive, is alarmed at the embarassment and inconvenience to the Ministry of such a scandal, then the Dementor might have just acted on that. That doesn't necessarily mean Fudge *wanted* Crouch Jr. dead; the Dementor, who wants all the souls he can get, might have seen Crouch as allowable game and gone for it. You could apply the same logic to the attack on Harry in PoA. The Dementors might have gotten the idea Harry was fair meat, too, particularly if they're in touch with Voldemort. The attack in OoP was different. A human intended for it to happen. The difference between Fudge and Umbridge is that Umbridge did it intentionally - she might have gone to Azkaban while conveniently forming the requisite images in her mind. What if Dementors have little left-brain sense, little cognition as we understand it, only their perverse appetites for misery? If that was true, the communication wouldn't be very precise. My bottom line is I doubt Fudge meant Harry to be destroyed by the Dementors. Expelled, neutralized, discredited, absolutely. Harry's an embarassment, a problem, an obstacle to keeping the lid on. All this is pure speculation; there isn't a shred of proof for it. But it doesn't contradict anything we know, and maybe there could be some kind of confirmation or rebuttal in HBP or Book 7. I doubt the Dementors give a damn for Fudge's authority. Their "service" at Azkaban is an alliance of convenience only; Fudge gives them souls to torment, and they do his will exactly as long as it serves them. Better deal from Voldemort? They're outta here. Jim Ferer "Will no one rid me of this troublesome priest?" Henry II, of Thomas ? Becket. Four knights, eager to please their king, murdered Becket at Mass. From meltowne at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 01:12:03 2004 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 01:12:03 -0000 Subject: ESE Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107203 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mhbobbin" wrote: mhbobbin writes: Why is it that Fudge turns up so often in the Peter Pettigrew / Sirius Black conflict? Coincidence? We don't know where Percy got Scabbers yet...but could he have been given to the Weasleys by Fudge? And it is Fudge's comments at the Three Broomsticks, in front of Harry's friends (and Harry too although Fudge might not know this) that further complicates the story. Fudge just can't keep his mouth shut about the inside story. Does he tell this to Hagrid, Flitwick, McGonnagall etc thinking it might get back to Harry, and Harry will behave recklessly? Very suspicious. And put together with Fudge being one of the first on the scene after the Pettigrew / Black duel. A duel--per Sirius-- that Sirius lost because little Peter had his wand behind his back. In other words, Sirius didn't see the wand--did Sirius know what really happened? Doubtful. Meltowne: good point - I hadn't really thought about that, but now that you mention it... LV tells Wormtail to "kill the spare" which he des with LV's wand (we know this because Cedric's shadow comes from the wand, right?). So Wormtail doesn't have his own wand. An animagus transforms with his possessions (despite the minor flaw in the latest movie), so if Wormtail used his own wand against all those muggles, we would expect him to have that same wand with him all along - but he doesn't! All that was left was his finger, but we don't hear about his wand being recovered - maybe it was lost elsewhere! If he used LV's wand, would we have seen the shadows of those muggles cme fromt he wand in the graveyard? Or did that only work because the Killing Curse was used? What if Sirius thinks Wormtail cast such powerful magic because he didn't know there was another wizard there - Fudge! Maybe Peter's finger really was blown off by the spell, but he managed otherwise to escape in Rat form. I suspect however that Fudge was involved in that too - Peter needed to disappear and he went to his friend Fudge for help. Maybe Fudge did give the rat to the Weasley family. And maybe Fudge let Sirius out because he realized he needed that rat eliminated (he couldn't afford to tell anyone else about it, so Sirious had to do the dirty work). Or maybe he realized Sirious wasn't being driven insane by the dementors, so he wanted an excuse to let them kiss him, or maybe even a reason to post them at Hogwarts - there are plenty of reasons for him to help Sirious escape. mhbobbin: I'm not convinced that Fudge was a Death Eater. He may just be out for his own power, a bumbling politician. But he sure turns up in strategic places in the Sirius /Pettigrew mystery and we know there aren't many true coincidences in JKR's world. Meltowne: Im not sure he was a Death Eater either, but he sympathized. As someone else has posted, he is the type to stand by and let them do their thing as long as it doesn't get in his way - particularly if he agrees with their sentiments on racial purity. From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 23:59:33 2004 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:59:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius's Will In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040721235933.63738.qmail@web50106.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107204 > luckdragon64 posted: > Who will inherit the Black family fortune and home now that Sirius > is dead? It's entirely possible that Sirius had no say in the disposition of the house. If he inherited it from Mrs. Black, then it was probably entailed since I can't imagine that if she had any discretion in the matter she would have left it to her traitor son rather than Narcissa instead. However, the money is probably his own, and I would hope he'd leave a lot of it to Lupin. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 02:27:39 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 02:27:39 -0000 Subject: Charm (sic) Protection Theory; Was (Re: Jame s gave his life) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107205 charme wrote: > Stephen King, who reviewed OoP (he loves JKR, and has used the "Golden Snitch" in his Dark Tower series,) chided her somewhat for her overuse of adjectives in her writing. Anyone got any ideas? > > Gina responded: >Ever read or listened to his book "On Writing" he HATES adjectives! He goes on and on about how that are just not as good as a more forward/firm sentence. Maybe it is > just that this is her first big series and she has not left the adjective nest yet - who knows? Carol adds: Presumably he wants he to rely on concrete nouns and strong verbs in the active voice, a view any professional writer, editor, or English teacher would agree with. But no adjectives at all would be pretty dull. We wouldn't know that Ron had red hair or that Umbridge was toadlike with short, stubby fingers or that Dumbledore had a long, crooked nose. We couldn't talk about Lily's green, almond-shaped eyes or note how many of the more powerful wizards appear to have long fingers. Just for the fun of it, I turned to a page of OoP at random and found: "'You received the note I sent to your cabin this morning?' said Umbridge in the same loud, slow voice she had used with him earlier, as though she was addressing somebody both foreign and very slow" (OoP Am. ed. 447). Take out just the adjectives and you have the obviously impossible sentence: "'You received the note I sent to your cabin this morning?' said Umbridge in the voice she had used with him earlier, as though she was addressing somebody both and very." The whole subordinate clause beginning with "as though" is dependent for sense on the adjectives "foreign and "slow," so it would also have to be eliminated if we were doing away with adjectives. Which leaves us with: "'You received the note I sent to your cabin this morning?' said Umbridge in the voice she had used with him earlier." Okay, it's a clear, grammatical sentence (unless you want the "was" changed to "were" for subjunctive mood), but it doesn't fully convey the intended meaning. So I vote for adjectives in small doses as needed but I agree that overreliance on them is an amateurish flaw. Did Stephen King cite any particular passages that he considered objectionable for the overuse of adjectives? Carol, who hopes this post will be regarded as OT even though it discusses style and not content From aboutthe1910s at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 01:18:02 2004 From: aboutthe1910s at yahoo.com (aboutthe1910s) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 01:18:02 -0000 Subject: Incomplete Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107206 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "esmith222002" wrote: If this prophecy is complete, then it is grammatically very poor. It consists of one long sentence, containing several 'ands', and doesn't make complete sense. Now me (aboutthe1910s): While this is an interesting theory, I think that the awkwardness of the grammatical arrangement is actually *due* to the fact that she put so much caution and attention into writing this sentence, and the fact that it is *supposed* to be a bit vague--the future itself is vauge, and it's only fitting that a prochecy made probably 17-18 years before the events will play themselves out in their entirety should be as well. And the sentence isn't actually grammatically *incorrect*, merely awkward. esmith222002: I was always confused by the fact that Voldemort spends the whole of OOTP trying to get hold of the prophecy, and yet when he encounters Harry, he attempts to kill him without a second thought! If the prophecy is supposed to be providing Voldemort with the knowledge of how to defeat Harry, then how can he be so reckless in trying to kill Harry, when he is still unclear about what the prophecy says! Me (aboutthe1910s) again: Then again, I was also a bit befuddled by this as well, so maybe you are on to something... aboutthe1910s From tookishgirl_111 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 01:55:26 2004 From: tookishgirl_111 at yahoo.com (tookishgirl_111) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 01:55:26 -0000 Subject: Quick question re: Lupin's resignation . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107207 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mnaper2001" wrote: > Everyone said Snape let it slip that Lupin was a werewolf, but I > didn't necessarily read Hagrid's statement like that. He said > something like "Didn't you hear? Snape told the Slytherins this > morning. Professor Lupin is a werewolf and was roaming the grounds > last night. He's packing now." > > That could mean - Snape told the Slytherins Lupin was a werewolf this > morning, and now, as a result, Lupin's resigned. > > Or it could just mean, Snape told the Slytherins the news that Lupin > will no longer be with us, b/c he's a werewolf, I'm surprised it > hasn't gotten all around the school yet. > > Is there some other part that confirms that Snape actually leaked the > information, or is it all based on this quote from Hagrid? Actually, there is. While Harry is recovering from the intial mass Dementor attack he overhears Snape and Fudge talking to each other. Snape is describing his version of what occured and comments on how Harry should be at least suspended for endangering Ron ans Hermione. Snape goes on to say, "Consider, Minister - againstall school rules...-out-of-bounds, at night, consorting with a werewolf and a murderer..." (US version, POA, pg 387). Now, if Fudge did not know Lupin was a werewolf, and possibly even if he did (which plays into the ESE!Fudge theory), he may very well feel it is responsibility to take it upon himself to reveal to others (ie students and/or parent's of students) Lupin's "condition" - claiming, of course, that it is based on safety concerns only. Tooks - who really wished Lupin never retired From mayeaux45 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 02:07:59 2004 From: mayeaux45 at yahoo.com (mayeaux45) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 02:07:59 -0000 Subject: Quick question re: Lupin's resignation . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107208 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mnaper2001" wrote: > Everyone said Snape let it slip that Lupin was a werewolf, but I > didn't necessarily read Hagrid's statement like that. He said > something like "Didn't you hear? Snape told the Slytherins this > morning. Professor Lupin is a werewolf and was roaming the grounds > last night. He's packing now." > > That could mean - Snape told the Slytherins Lupin was a werewolf this > morning, and now, as a result, Lupin's resigned. > > Or it could just mean, Snape told the Slytherins the news that Lupin > will no longer be with us, b/c he's a werewolf, I'm surprised it > hasn't gotten all around the school yet. > > Is there some other part that confirms that Snape actually leaked the > information, or is it all based on this quote from Hagrid? It's quite interesting that we assume that it was Snape that told on Lupin...But I don't think he did. What would he have to gain? It's pretty obvious that DD is not going to EVER let him teach DADA and he didn't get any "recognition" for Lupins' secret being revealed. Snape is a "true" Slytherin IMO. He's cunning! That would explain why he decided that instead of 'leaking' the info. about Lupin in PoA, he would just assign an essay to the class about werewolves. Of course Hermione, being the 'bright witch' that she is, uncovered the truth about him as soon as the essay was assigned. Also to further my point that Snape had relatively nothing to do with Lupin's resignation, there is the line spoken by Lupin in the PoA movie "It would seem that *someone* has revealed the nature of my...condition". We already know that JKR reads over the scripts and trust Steve Kloves immensely, so I believe that particular line to be 'telling' (maybe even for books 6&7). Because if not Snape...then WHO? Hermione surely wouldn't have told anyone. Is there someone at Hogwarts that we have not yet been introduced to? Only time will tell... Mayeaux45, who hopes Snape turns out to be a good guy in the end! From tinainfay at msn.com Thu Jul 22 01:58:27 2004 From: tinainfay at msn.com (mrs_sonofgib) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 01:58:27 -0000 Subject: Remember my last, Petunia! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107209 Anastasia: > > I just read over the passage with Petunia getting a strange howler > > many of us wonder about. > > > > "It's [the Howler] adressed to ME, Vernon, look! [followed by exact > > address]" > > "Remember my last, Petunia!" > > > > Well, if you happen to get a letter dropped on your head with your > > name and address on it, what do you suggest? Right, that the content > > of the letter is meant for you. Then why "Remember my last, PETUNIA?" > > The speaker seems to be familiar enough with Harry's aunt to call > > her by her name only. DD seems not to be the man to do that if he > > didn't know her well enough. Does he know her that well? > > > > As far as I can remember, DD admits to have SENT the howler. But > > that doesn't mean that "my" refers to him, does it? > > > > You see, I'm very confused. I just cannot come up with any decent > > theory of a person calling Harry's aunt "Petunia" except of... Lily! > > But what could Lily have told her? That she cast a spell to harm > > Dudley if Petunia ever harmed Harry? Some prophecy? I like the thought behind your post, Anastasia, but I don't think that the howler DD sent to Petunia could be from Lily... I would think that Harry would have recognized his mothers own voice as he hears her death screams in his head and her "echo" spoke to him in GoF. I find it very interesting that Petunia knows what dementors are and her explaination of her hearing James tell Lily about them makes no sense... first of all, where exactly would James be with Lily that Petunia would be there.. and whyever would casual conversation turn to talk of prison guards?? Tara: > I read a suggestion on here that maybe Petunia was a squib... perhaps she was.. perhaps she didnt think Lily was a freak, but envied her? Something to ponder! I can see a situation in which Petunia overhears J&L. They would be welcome at her parents' house. They were 'proud to have a witch in the family' afterall. And I don't think it is a stretch for them to have a conversation in which Dementors come up. They thrice defied LV. When were they doing this? They were only out of Hogwarts for a few years before that fateful night. Think of Harry at 19 or 20. That is somewhat how I see James and Lily. Voldemort was everywhere, bad things were happening. They may have had friends in Azkaban or friends attacked or.... Lots of possiblilities. ~tina P.S. Petunia is well-known for being extremely nosy :-) From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Thu Jul 22 02:36:57 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 02:36:57 -0000 Subject: The Four Magical Brethren Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107210 Hi all, I was just hoping to get a little feedback on this particular musing of mine. In the Fountain of Magical Brethren there are distinctly four types, (or races whatever you may call them). The 'Human' Wizard and Witch, the 'Goblin', the 'Elf' and the 'Centaur'. I realised at some point while musing another thread that the Four Magical Brethren have something in common with Hogwarts: Namely "Four Magical Brethren" I will, tentatively, put to you all that this is not merely coincedence. (tenatively because I dont have a lot of time for an enourmous essay in support of it and the list can be a bit unforgiving if one doesn't.) I have a sketchy draft of a theory that might help a bit so here it is: The Wizard/Witch Human: Salazar Slytherin ; definately Human, with an indisputable record for 100% Wizard superiority but not necessarily Human!Wizard superiority. The Goblin: Helga Hufflepuff ; the name is very Goblinish, and goblins are one of the two hardest working of the Brethren. The Centaur: Rowena Ravenclaw ; again 'Rowena' is an elegant name reminiscent of names of the centaurs we have met in the books, and the "*Purest* Intelligence" and "wisdom" ramblings are a dead giveaway, I am willing to bet she's Centaur regardless. The Elf: Godric Gryffindor; Godric is reminiscent, to me anyway, of Tolkien Elf names. If any are out of their order I would be inclined to pick Godric and Helga, because the attributes of hardworking and loyal are fitting of elves in so many ways and our Godric clue is a sword which could indicate Goblin. Ok, so whatever you will with that, dear list. Best to All Valky From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 02:40:38 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 02:40:38 -0000 Subject: Let's burn down the Houses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107211 > Demetra wrote: > At the risk of making a "me too" post, I completely agree with Del. > I question the practice of taking children who have been raised with > a set of beliefs (however twisted those beliefs might be) and put > them in a house comprised of others who have been raised with the > same beliefs. Not to mention that members of the other houses are > suspicious of them and inter-house cooperation is not exactly > encouraged. Where would these kids ever learn about other viewpoints so that they could have a change of heart? > The books stress the importance of choice, but to choose to reject > one way of thinking, you have to be exposed to and understand a > different way of thinking. I don't think that can be accomplished by sharing a couple of classes with another house. > I do hope that we find out in later books that Snape is doing > something behing the scenes to discourage the Slytherins from > following the DE path, because otherwise I think that those kids were shortchanged by the whole sorting system. Carol adds: It just occurred to me that the Head of Slytherin House (Snape) is going to have a bit of an unfair burden next year as well. Imagine having four of your students with fathers in Azkaban, blaming everyone and everything except Voldemort (and particularly Harry Potter). No one else has students seething with resentment in addition to their pureblood prejudices. I wouldn't want to be in Snape's position even without his usual teaching duties and services to the Order and Dumbledore. Carol From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 02:45:36 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 02:45:36 -0000 Subject: Quick question re: Lupin's resignation . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107212 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mayeaux45" wrote: snip. Also to > further my point that Snape had relatively nothing to do with > Lupin's resignation, there is the line spoken by Lupin in the PoA > movie "It would seem that *someone* has revealed the nature of > my...condition". We already know that JKR reads over the scripts > and trust Steve Kloves immensely, so I believe that particular line > to be 'telling' (maybe even for books 6&7). Because if not > Snape...then WHO? Hermione surely wouldn't have told anyone. Is > there someone at Hogwarts that we have not yet been introduced to? > Only time will tell... Alla: Interesting. I cannot say that I am convinced yet, but I am at least ready to listen. Who knows, maybe that line is one of the foreshadowing hints JKR was talking about. I don't think JKR reads the scripts though. With that much material cut from the movie, I doubt it. Although I am surethat she gives general approval. But who do you think it was ? Voldemort agent in Hogwarts? Who could that be? Who may know about the nature of Lupin's illness, besides parties involved int he Shrieking Shack event?. Nah, I still think that dear Severus executed his revenge over poor Remus. Bad, Bad Snape! Left Remus without any possibility to earn a living. (Hey, Pippin! :o) Although, when I reread Hagrid's quote, I am inclined to agree with Ava - it could be read that Snape told Slytherins that Lupin is resigning because he is a werewolf (after somebody else already slipped it) But, please, please convince me who that "anonymous person" can be. Alla, From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 02:58:50 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 02:58:50 -0000 Subject: Mothers and Fathers (was: Re: James gave his life, why no protection from him?) In-Reply-To: <20040719182653.49019.qmail@web90006.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107213 Iggy McSnurd wrote: > Snip, snip snip... > > Mr. and Mrs. Diggory - While we don't see much of > > Mrs. Diggory, Amos is obviously proud of his son, and shows a certain amount of affection. When they hear of Cedric's death and see the body, Mrs. Diggory collapses in tears and becomes overcome. Mr. Diggory, on the other hand, shows obviously severe greif, but also a resolve that he knows he must be strong because his > > wife needs him to be. This is something that's VERY > > common in most cultures. > > JES: > Actually, I think if you check the book (sorry, don't > have GoF handy to quote chapter and page), you will > find that it was MRS Diggory who was the stoic and MR > Diggory who was showing his emotions. At least that > was the case when they came to see Harry in the > Hospital Wing. I marked it particularly as it was the > opposite of what I would have expected. I forget if > there was any mention of their reactions when it first > happened. > > An interesting and thought-provoking post - thanks! Carol adds: I remember having the exact same reaction except that I don't see her reaction as stoicism. I read it as indicating that her grief was beyond expression, too deep for tears. Her only child (apparently), only seventeen and gone forever, irreparably lost. It's unbearable, an impossible burden for any parent, mother or father. Carol, who will forever suffer the same burden From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 03:16:05 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 03:16:05 -0000 Subject: Still wondering why Snape trusts DD! (was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: <200407202259.30792.silmariel@telefonica.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107214 Carol earlier: > > Moreover, he can't know that Snape is an occlumens or Snape would be unable > > to spy on him or observe him or attend meetings (whatever he's doing) > > without giving himself away. Carolina replied: > I can't agree with this. If Voldemort is using Snape as a spy, he should know > that he needs to be an occlumens to do that work. One can't be under the nose > of a legilimens for 14 years without being an occlumens and Voldemort should > know, or should be asking himself why DD hasn't detected him in 14 years if > he is not one. > Alla: Good point, Carolina. I also tend to think that Voldemort knows about Snape being an Occlumenc. He has to. If nothing else, Voldie would have learned about it when he would try to read Snape's mind and could not. That is one of the reasons why i don't believe that Snape does direct spying. On the other hand if he spied on Lucius mind by using his legilimenc abilities, that I see as more porbable version of the events. From jane_starr at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 03:49:26 2004 From: jane_starr at yahoo.com (Jane Starr) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:49:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mothers and Fathers (was: Re: James gave his life, why no protection from him?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040722034926.67795.qmail@web90007.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107215 --- justcarol67 wrote: > > JES: > > Actually, I think if you check the book (sorry, > > don't have GoF handy to quote chapter and page), > > you will find that it was MRS Diggory who was the > > stoic and MR Diggory who was showing his > > emotions. > Carol adds: > I remember having the exact same reaction except > that I don't see her reaction as stoicism. I read > it as indicating that her grief was > beyond expression, too deep for tears. Her only > child (apparently), only seventeen and gone > forever, irreparably lost. It's unbearable, an > impossible burden for any parent, mother or father. JES: Point taken - JKR even says something about Mrs D's grief being beyond tears when they were visiting Harry in the hospital wing. I guess I was using stoicism more to indicate her lack of emotional display, not that she was trying to repress her natural grief. > Carol, who will forever suffer the same burden JES: My deepest sympathy ... I cannot imagine how I would bear losing either of my boys... JES __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/ From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 03:52:46 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 03:52:46 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 23: Christmas On The Closed Ward In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107216 4) Why does Alice give Neville the gum wrapper? Is she starting to recognize him? Is there something strange about the gum, or is it all she has to give? > Del responded: > Your guess is as good as any :-) > One possibility I like is that she gives them to Neville because it's > Neville who gives the gums to her in the first place. Maybe Neville > learned from Uncle Algie that his mom was a Drooble Gum addict, so he > started early on to give them her favourite treats as a way to tell > her he loved her. And now she's giving them back to him as a way to > tell him she loves him too. The gums wrappers would be a *symbol* of > the love they have for each other but that they can't share any other way. > I have of course not a single shred of canon to support my theory. I > just *like* the idea. Carol adds: That's one possibility, but I think she just wants to give Neville something and the wrappers are all she has to give. She wouldn't have any personal possessions, only her hospital gown and the bed she sleeps in. I think her mind and emotions have been reduced to those of a pre-verbal child about the age Neville was when she was Crucio'd. I can imagine a baby of fifteen months or so giving someone who clearly loves him but doesn't see him very often (say, a grandma) a gum wrapper. It's very touching that Alice would be in such a plight yet still struggling to show her love, and even more touching that Neville values her gifts. Gran, being stern and practical, doesn't understand, but at least she takes him to see his parents and is proud rather than ashamed of her son and daughter-in-law. (Frank, presumably, is even worse off than Alice. His complete absence from the scene, even though he's behind the curtain, suggests that he's comatose or near it--unable to walk or talk or react. It must be very hard for Gran, remembering the hero that her son used to be. That's stoicism, IMO.) Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 04:08:27 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 04:08:27 -0000 Subject: New JKR FAQ Poll: Which is significant? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107217 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meidbh" wrote: > Stefanie wrote: > > "Stefanie ponders: > Looking at JKR's new FAQ poll on her website, and looking at what > canon has to offer us, which option do you think would help us the > most? > 1) Is Percy working undercover for any secret organization/boss?// > 2) Where has Peter Pettigrew (Wormtail) been since the end > of 'Goblet of Fire'?// > 3) What did Dumbledore's Howler to Aunt Petunia mean? ('Remember my > last'?)" > > > Percy and Peter are followers and mostly significant in relation to > the people who pull their strings. They only seem to manage to be > interesting by accident. > > I do believe that Dumbledore on the other hand holds the answers to > many questions behind his half moon specs. If we knew but some of > what Dumbledore knows I think we'd see the picture much more > clearly ;-) > > Meidbh Carol responds: So, in other words, you think that JKR should answer the Dumbledore question? I agree, but not for that reason. First, I think it would be a mistake for the voters to choose a "ys"/"no" question like the first one that JKR could shoose to answer in such a limited way that it gave us virtually no information. Second, she's already pretty much answered the Percy question in the World Biik Day chat. At any rate, we know he hasn't been Imperio'd, and it sounds as if he's just being proud, wrong-headed Percy who'll end up being sorry for his mistake (or maybe dying for it). The Peter question is interesting but not crucial to the plot (which may be the point you were making as well), and we're bound to find out in Book 6, anyway. So that leaves the Howler. What *was* that about? How can a Muggle (and I'll bet my wand she's a Muggle, not a witch and certainly not a squib or the mother of a suppressed wizard) be in communication with Dumbledore? What was his "last" and for that matter, what was his "first" (the note tucked into baby Harry's blankets)? My only concern is that the answer may be a spoiler. If so, I hope nobody posts it without a spoiler warning and spoiler space! Carol, who already voted for question three From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 04:39:55 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 04:39:55 -0000 Subject: James gave his life, why no protection from him? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107218 Theresa wrote: I have always felt it was not > necessarily the fact that it was a mother's love so to speak that > protected Harry, but that Lily did something that needed love as > an "ingredient" so to speak. It just seems too simple for it to just > be just that she loved Harry. Also, sorry my books are at home and I > am quickly finishing this at work, but Voldemort mentions something > about ancient magic he had forgotten while in the graveyard. I think > Lily being the clever witch that everyone always seems to describe > somehow transferred some of her love to protect Harry as she died. I > don't know how but I think she did it as she died and it worked for > her because she was near Harry and that James being somewhere else in the house was unable to do so due to not being near. And he might not have been as clever as Lily. I think James and Lily both loved Harry dearly and it was NOT merely the simple - 'your mother loved you so that protected you' with no ancient magic at all. It is just a theory > of mine that may be blasted out of the water but it is how I have > thought since reading the graveyard scene in GOF. > Theresa Carol responds: Exactly. Her death, her self-sacrifice, was required to activate the ancient magic. James' wasn't. He could and did fight to protect his family, to give her time to run--but she didn't, and couldn't--run, because she knew (as I don't think James did) that she had to die. There's no evidence that she was armed with a wand or attempted to fight back. She just blocked Voldemort's way and insisted that he kill her instead of Harry. It was the only way she could save him. I'm not in any way denigrating what James did--it was right and necessary and courageous--but his death could not have saved Harry. Only Lily's could. And I think that was a secret that only she and Dumbledore knew. I also don't think it's Lily's *cleverness* as compared with James' (he was clever, too) but her skill with Charms (as opposed to his with Transfiguration) that's the key factor here. Specifically, I think that the ancient magic was a protective charm she placed on Harry that would be activated by the combination of her death and Voldemort's AK. Instead of killing Harry as it would have done had she not died first, the AK created the scar, which acted as a shield, deflecting back the AK on the caster. Although JKR has said that the shape of the scar isn't the most important thing about it, that doesn't mean it's wholly *un*important. So I wouldn't be at all surprised if the lightning-shaped scar was really an eihwaz (defense) rune. Carol, hoping she spelled eihwaz correctly because she didn't look it up From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 04:57:22 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 04:57:22 -0000 Subject: New JKR FAQ Poll: Which is significant? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107219 > > //3) What did Dumbledore's Howler to Aunt Petunia mean? ('Remember > > my last'?)// > > Aleesahn writes: > I vote for number three! This was one of the top five mysteries I > would want to solve if I could cheat a little on the HP series POV > (getting into other character's heads for a peek)- something I > explained in post 106606. > The answer to the third question could explain what was in the > letter DD tucked into Harry's baby basket in the opening of PS/SS. > Was a bargain struck between DD and Petunia? Did Petunia receive any > protection for Dudley through this transaction (or even some help in > supressing Dudely's latent magical power- if there is any to > suspress?) > An answer to this question could also shine more light on the charm > Lily cast to protect Harry. How did it work, and what role does > Petunia play in its effectiveness? > I hope the third question gets picked! Carol responds: I think you're confusing two separate charms, the (as yet hypothetical) one that Lily cast to protect Harry from Voldemort's AK, and the one we know that *Dumbledore* cast to extend the protection Harry received from Lily's blood to Petunia and the Dursley house. Sorry I don't have a page reference for Dumbledore's charm, but it's mentioned in OoP ("The Lost Prophecy"). Carol, who also wants to know what the Howler means but will be both surprised and disappointed if Muggle Dudley is a suppressed wizard From Batchevra at aol.com Thu Jul 22 05:03:56 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 01:03:56 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape a vampire? (was Snape's Patronus) Message-ID: <7b.2efe8817.2e30a4bc@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107220 In a message dated 7/21/04 3:05:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, deb_mathews at sbcglobal.net writes: >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: > JKR has said flat-out he's not. When has JKR said flat out that he's not a Vampire? I've only read a comment where someone asked her if Snape "had any connection with Vampires," and her response was, "Erm...I don't think so..." This sounds like she was skirting the issue to me. He can still be a Vampire without having connections to other Vampires. I find the fact that Lupin assigned a Vampire essay right after Snape's Werewolf essay, AND made sure to mention it to Snape right in front of Harry, very suspicious. As for Snape being out in daylight, if he can brew a potion to keep Lupin from transforming during a full moon, I'm sure that there is something for a Vampire. Debra, who agrees with Gina.< The Vampire essay was not right after the Werewolf essay. The Werewolf essay was in November, the Vampire essay was in March, apparently 4 months had gone by and Lupin kept to his schedule of what he was going to teach. As for the potion, it doesn't prevent Lupin from transforming into a werewolf during the full moon, it keeps him aware of who he is while in the transformation and able to overcome his need to bite a human being. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 05:08:52 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 05:08:52 -0000 Subject: Stalagmites & stalagtites? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107221 > Janet Anderson pointed out that the usual mnemonic (in English) turns > on the 6th letter -- "stala(g)mite" <==> ground; "stala(c)tite" <==> > ceiling. > Matt added: > I had thought that it was supposed to be funny that Hagrid remembered enough to know that there was a mnemonic having to do with one of the distinct letters, but misremembered which letter it was. It's even more amusing now that Del points out the mnemonic in French actually does depend on the 7th (rather than the 6th) letter, although I rather doubt Rowling was aware of that point when she wrote it! > -- Carol responds: Since JKR used to be a French teacher, I'm betting that mnemonic was *exactly* what she had in mind! (Thnks, Del, for explaining what I always thought was a useless throwaway line.) Carol From rarpsl at optonline.net Thu Jul 22 04:10:11 2004 From: rarpsl at optonline.net (Robert A. Rosenberg) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 00:10:11 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Remember my last, Petunia! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107222 At 11:55 -0500 on 07/21/2004, Miller, Gina (JIS) wrote about Re: [HPforGrownups] Remember my last, Petunia!: >Gina: >Maybe DD sent it but it was not his voice? Maybe someone else left the >message for DD to send Petunia if she ever tried to send Harry away??? But >don't howlers explode or something if you do not open them? It has been 16 >years! On the other hand I believe we will not solve any of this because >there can be too many spells/potions, etc added to the story that we have no >way to know about - like one that allows you to save a howler for over a >decade! >Gina Yes they explode if not opened but I think you might be ignoring something. I think the clock starts running upon DELIVERY not envelope sealing or dispatch (Otherwise you might have a problem with it going off while it is still in the process of being delivered - The owl gets delayed, has further to go and not enough "Transit" time was allowed, or the dispatch was delayed). Thus it is the actual touching of the envelope by the recipient that starts the spell into motion. From Meliss9900 at aol.com Thu Jul 22 05:26:37 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 01:26:37 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: New JKR FAQ Poll Message-ID: <141.2ee27ee0.2e30aa0d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107223 In a message dated 07/20/2004 6:59:14 AM Central Daylight Time, cldrolet at sympatico.ca writes: > I don't remember what the three previous poll questions were, though in her > answer about Mark Evans she stated that she put in the 'if any' phrase as a > clue. Silly me, I presumed she was posting the questions in the same manner > they were asked. Obviously, in this case at least, the question was more > along the lines of "what is the significance of Mark Evans" and she put in the > 'if any' as a clue that she meant, by wording the question that way, that > there is no significance. > > DuffyPoo > > I'm beginning to think that none of the questions she's giving us to choose from have significant answers. A perfect example of this is the Mark Evans question. The fact that she selected that question (regardless of the 'if any' hint) for her poll should have been a huge clue that there was nothing significant about him. If he had been intended to be a relative of Harry's I doubt she would have answered the question with anything other than a non answer: "You'll have to wait until book 6 to find out." Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From paul_terzis at yahoo.gr Thu Jul 22 05:36:21 2004 From: paul_terzis at yahoo.gr (paul_terzis) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 05:36:21 -0000 Subject: Incomplete Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107224 > esmith222002 wrote: > > > It appears to me that Dumbledore did not allow Harry to hear the > whole prophecy. > > Snip > > I was always confused by the fact that Voldemort spends the whole > of OOTP trying to get hold of the prophecy, and yet when he > encounters Harry, he attempts to kill him without a second > thought! Paul replies: Welcome to the club. I strongly believe that AD is not entirely trustworthy. He still keeps a lot from HP and this might be one good reason that will lead eventually to a parting of ways between AD and HP. As for the part that LV tried to kill Harry without hesitation is not so strange. LV's main focus is to avenge himself on Harry. Harry is a thorn in his side for 15 years not to mention the fact that based on the portion of the prophecy he knows, HP is the main obstacle to his supremacy. So LV simply tried to seize the opportunity to send HP in the oblivion. From gelite67 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 01:04:55 2004 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 01:04:55 -0000 Subject: Voldemort and the Prophesy --OOP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107225 I guess I'm dense, but I don't see how gaining access to the prophesy would help Voldemort. How would it be a weapon? Angie From juli17 at aol.com Thu Jul 22 02:58:18 2004 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:58:18 EDT Subject: Snape a vampire? (was Snape's Patronus) Message-ID: <1e4.25966545.2e30874a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107226 > Jim F.: wrote > > >JKR has said flat-out he's not. > > > >There's characteristics of vampires that made it seem unlikely that > >Snape was such, even without JKR's word. > Luckdragon wrote: > Actually if I have the right quotation you are referring to JKR when > asked if Snape is a vampire says, "Erm...I don't think so". This is > not a flat out denial! She seems to hedge around a bit rather than > saying "No!" Maybe a direct answer would have given too much away. JKR did stop short of a clear denial. It could be that Snape's Patronus is a bat. Maybe even a vampire bat. That would explain the hedging on JKR's part. Or perhaps Snape has some vampire friends (assuming he has any friends ;). With Snape's physical description (deliberately?) evocative of vampires, and JKR's hedging a bit on that question, I do think there's a good chance Snape has some connection to vampires/bats. Guess we'll have to wait to find out for sure. Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gelite67 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 03:30:30 2004 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 03:30:30 -0000 Subject: Doesn't Voldemort know about Snape's loyalty? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107227 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Pat" wrote: > Peter: > > > I was reading PS/SS and it dawned on me--if Quirrell > > > knew that Snape was loyal to Dumbledore, and Quirrell > > > was possessed by Voldemort, wouldn't Voldemort know > > > that Snape is in the OOTP? > > > > James said: > > > >> He wouldn't know Snape is in the Order, > > because I highly doubt that the teachers sit around in the lounge > > discussing it. > Angie wonders, too: Excellent question, I think. Voldemort wouldn't have to know anything about the Order to know that Snape was trying to prevent Quirrell from getting the Stone, which would mean he was working against Voldemort. Yet, in OOP (I think) someone (can't find this right now) told Snape that Lucius Malfoy spoke highly of him or something to that effect. Now I'm really confused! From gelite67 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 03:41:22 2004 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 03:41:22 -0000 Subject: Incomplete Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107228 -snip, snip -- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "esmith222002" wrote: > My apologies if this has been covered before, but I have not managed > to find any reference to it. > > It appears to me that Dumbledore did not allow Harry to hear the > whole prophecy. Angie agrees: Looks that way to me, too. I know we are reading what Dumbledore heard Trewlawny say, but the purpose of ellipses is to indicate something has been omitted. Further, if you read the prophecy, as is, how can it be useful to Voldemort, Harry, or anyone? It doesn't tell Voldemort how to defeat Harry or vice versa. And while I'm at it, I'd love to know who it was that overheard the prophecy and spilled it to Voldemort. Dumbledore refers to the person as "he" and states that because "he" only heard the first part of the prophecy, "he" could not inform "his master" about transferring Voldemort's powers. --Angie From sad1199 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 04:56:00 2004 From: sad1199 at yahoo.com (sad1199) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 04:56:00 -0000 Subject: James gave his life, why no protection from him? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107229 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Theresa wrote: > I have always felt it was not > > necessarily the fact that it was a mother's love so to speak that > > protected Harry, but that Lily did something that needed love as > > an "ingredient" so to speak. > > > Theresa > > Carol responds: > Exactly. Her death, her self-sacrifice, was required to activate the > ancient magic. James' wasn't. sad1199 replies: Also if you go back to the post entitled 'Elvin blood?'. You will see my theory on why Lily's magic was so strong. Charme actually got me going on this thread.. Have a Happy Love Filled Day sad1199 From ariston3344 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 05:12:38 2004 From: ariston3344 at yahoo.com (Lee) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 05:12:38 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 23: Christmas On The Closed Ward In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107230 > 4) Why does Alice give Neville the gum wrapper? Is she starting > to recognize him? Is there something strange about the gum, or is > it all she has to give? Del responded: > Your guess is as good as any :-) > One possibility I like is that she gives them to Neville because it's > Neville who gives the gums to her in the first place. Maybe Neville > learned from Uncle Algie that his mom was a Drooble Gum addict, so he > started early on to give them her favourite treats as a way to tell > her he loved her. And now she's giving them back to him as a way to > tell him she loves him too. The gums wrappers would be a *symbol* of > the love they have for each other but that they can't share any other way. > I have of course not a single shred of canon to support my theory. I > just *like* the idea. Carol added: > That's one possibility, but I think she just wants to give Neville > something and the wrappers are all she has to give. She wouldn't have > any personal possessions, only her hospital gown and the bed she > sleeps in. I think her mind and emotions have been reduced to those of > a pre-verbal child about the age Neville was when she was Crucio'd. I > can imagine a baby of fifteen months or so giving someone who clearly > loves him but doesn't see him very often (say, a grandma) a gum > wrapper. It's very touching that Alice would be in such a plight yet > still struggling to show her love, and even more touching that Neville > values her gifts. [...] ariston finally decides to plunk down two knuts: I think there may be another very sad aspect to all of this, too, which is that Alice can no longer recognize the difference between a valuable gift and a non-valuable one. Of course, the wrappers *become* valuable because Alice has given them, but that's not what I'm getting at... To Alice, there may no longer BE any difference between giving Neville a gum wrapper and giving him a Mimbulus Mimbletonia -- she can no longer see that. Dumbledore says that Neville's parents don't recognize him, so I doubt that Alice even knows that she's giving something to someone named "Neville" or that she's giving something to *her son*. She has a dim awareness of love toward this person, and she gives something to him. But in fact she may feel a similar dim awareness toward many people who treat her kindly. I once worked in a nursing home, and it wouldn't surprise me if Alice gives gum wrappers to the nurses and the healers all the time, too. I guess I'm kind of raining on the parade here, but I actually don't think this takes away from Alice's gifts to Neville being deeply touching. In the limited way that she's still capable of, Alice is expressing love. But when I pause to think just *how* limited that is -- that Alice has been reduced to THIS -- that there might not be any significance to the gum wrappers at all, that perhaps for all Alice knows she's giving Neville pocket fluff or something deadly or a million galleons -- then I feel the pathos of the situation, and the utter horror of what the DEs did to her and Frank, much more strongly. Azkaban was better, really, than those four DEs deserved. -ariston From keara.courtney at studentmail.newcastle.edu.au Thu Jul 22 05:12:55 2004 From: keara.courtney at studentmail.newcastle.edu.au (kearacookie) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 05:12:55 -0000 Subject: Draco's redemption - reprise In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107231 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "brewpub44" wrote: > Some time ago, I posted my own personal theory which, well, I kind of like: > > Draco likes being the leader of the bullying group. The grand poobah of all that is slimey at Hogwarts. > > Along comes LV, to whom the elder Malfoy has not only pledged his > allegiance but is subservient to. > > Now, if Draco became a DE, he too would be under LV's thumb, a rotten place to be no matter whether you're a "good guy" or "bad guy." > > So, I would like to see Draco help Harry, not because Draco turns > over a new leaf and is redeemed, but because Draco doesn't want to be a slave to LV like dear old Dad. Ultimately I have to disagree with those who forsee Draco being redeemed. In chapter 32 of OOTP, when Draco and Umbridge have caught Harr and co. attempting to contact Sirius Draco seems to have no problem following Umbridge's orders and JKR describes him as having "a hungry expression on his face" (p.658)and facial expressions reflecting "eagerness and greed" (p.660). These features are repeated after being used to describe Umbridge. JKR uses parts of characters and the plot as analogies to history. Not so much to individual events but to patterns in history. The House Elf Liberation Front (ch 21 in GoF) and SPEW parallel to the events of the emancipation of serf and peasents in Europe several centuries ago and to more modern liberation movements in the third world (such as in Nicargua. Umbridge and her cronies reflect both fascism and the brutality of the Spanish Inquistion. Additionally, I think Draco will have some protection from LV being Lucius Malfoy's son. Not a lot but I think he would be able to fast track his DE career. How likely is it that Draco will transform into the leader of the revolt or rebellion aginst DE, the corrupt elements of the ministry? It could have been an interesting plot development but I think JKR has decided to use the HBP instead. I think the battle JKR will depict will be quite major and that requires the DE to have considerable forces. That doesn't mean I don't think that other DE children may refuse to join LV. The role Draco played in the Inquistion Squad undermined Dumbledore at the school and attempted to undermine the school itself. So for all the fanfictioners out there who make Draco Head Boy I think it is unlikely. So Ron's aspirations from PS/SS of being Head Boy may come true! Keara From theadimail at yahoo.co.in Thu Jul 22 05:57:16 2004 From: theadimail at yahoo.co.in (theadimail) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 05:57:16 -0000 Subject: JKR's narrative strategy (Was: Whose point of view ?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107232 carol wrote: Anyway, the point is simply that the narrator is not the author, and JKR, as author, has chosen to limit her narrator's omniscience. adi writes: I know I might be hairsplitting about something quite off-topic but I would like to take your argument further. If the narrator is indeed different from the author, wouldn't it raise the question of who it is? In fact, it is not anyone we know from the canon, not any single character, so who is this narrator who can presume to know so much about these characters and then tell us exactly in the form he/she wants? And what can his designs be, if he can indeed block and allow us into minds as he/she pleases? You see, you are inventing a fictitious narrator, giving life to the third person vein that the books are told from. I don't think the narrator at least in this case is different from the author. Adi, who thanks Carol for her lengthy and meticulous answers. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 06:09:20 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 06:09:20 -0000 Subject: Dudley Demented (???) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107233 Snow wrote: >> Lets look at what young wizards of Dudley's age had to say about the experience of meeting a dementor and match it to what Dudley himself had to say when the dementor attacked him. > Now lets match this up with what muggle Dudley had to say: > > OOP pg. 30 "All dark," Dudley said hoarsely, shuddering. "Everything > dark. And then I h-heard things. Inside m-my head " > OOP PG.31 "horrible," croaked Dudley. "Cold. Really cold." > " " " " "Felt felt felt as if as if " "As if you'd never be > happy again," Harry supplied dully. "Yes," Dudley whispered, still > trembling. > > Dudley in just the few statements he made expressed the sentiments of > all the other child wizards. In fact Dudley's reaction was more like > Harry and Ginny even Malfoy. Dudley threw up and was shaking, feeling > extremely faint. Even some of the young wizards like Fred, George, > Ron and Neville were not affected to "this" degree. > > Now take a look at the attack on Dudley from the dementor: > > OOP pg 19 Dudley was curled on the ground, his arms clamped over his > face; a second dementor was crouching low over him, gripping his > wrists in its slimy hands, prizing them slowly, almost lovingly apart > > The dementor took Dudley's hands away from his face. Dudley may have > had his eyes shut tight but he must have felt the dementor grab at > his wrists and pry his arms away from his face. How could he not feel the tugging of something forcing his arms away from his face so that he could be kissed? > > Here lies the conflict; did Dudley see the dementor? Did he have his > eyes shut? What is meant specifically by "feel their presence"; is > it "sense" their presence or "physically" feel their presence? If it > is sense their presence then why did Dudley obviously feel something > pry his arms from his face? > . Dudley appears to be a hidden wizard to me. Carol responds: Although these are interesting passages, Dudley doesn't say that he *saw* the Dementors, as he surely would have done if he'd really seen them. Instead he reports *hearing* voices in his head. All he *saw* was darkness. As numerous posters have pointed out, Harry shouted to him to keep his mouth closed no matter what. Dudley, if you recall, has been the victim of magical mischief twice, once involving his mouth (tongue) and he's protecting that vulnerable part of him, IMO, partly because of that memory and partly because of Harry's words. Remember that in GoF he claps his hands over his bottom to protect it--his previous experience with magic involved a pig's tail. As for feeling their presence versus feeling their hands prying his hands away from his mouth, I think they're two different things. Presumably Muggles are not the Dementors' normal prey, just as Muggles don't have Doxies in their curtains. Any Muggle whose soul had been sucked wouldn't have been able to report the experience of feeling the Dementor's horrible hands. And we can't even be sure that Dudley *did* feel them since he only reports cold, extreme unhappiness, and hearing voices in his head. And Harry yells at Dudley, "COME BACK! YOU'RE RUNNING RIGHT AT IT!" (OoP Am. ed. ). Obviously if Dudley could see the Dementor, he'd have done no such thing. Again, I think that he kept his mouth tightly shut with his hands clamped over it because the desperation in Harry's voice convinced him that was the only way to protect himself. He certainly didn't know about the Dementor's kiss, but he did know that very unpleasant things could happen to his mouth. And he could sense that something horrible was near him. But if he had actually seen something as terrible as a Dementor, he would surely have fainted or screamed or run the other direction--*not* toward it. That makes no sense at all. Carol, who doesn't understand why anyone would *want* bully!Dudley to be a wizard or believe that he could be one despite the narrator's statements in *every book* that the Dursleys are Muggles From theadimail at yahoo.co.in Thu Jul 22 06:10:39 2004 From: theadimail at yahoo.co.in (theadimail) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 06:10:39 -0000 Subject: An etymology for Kreacher Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107234 Hi all, I don't know whether anybody has suggested this elsewhere, because I do not keep up with the etymology lists on the net, but the etymology for Kreacher seems to me this. Kreacher, seems to be merely a different spelling for the word 'creature'. Since Kreacher is supposed to be what he is because of the (can we call it that?)racial discrimination shown towards him by the other wizards. Well, 'creature' seems to be the word that is used when you do not look upon others as well as yourself, when this class of being is upposed to be somehow lower than yours. When you hate somebody for belonging to a certain class, they become 'creatures', don't they? Um, that's it. It occured to me the first time I read the book but I didn't know whether one posted things like this to the group. Bye, Adi From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 06:27:46 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 06:27:46 -0000 Subject: Sirius's Will In-Reply-To: <20040721235933.63738.qmail@web50106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107235 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich wrote: > > luckdragon64 posted: > > Who will inherit the Black family fortune and home now that Sirius > > is dead? > Magda, > > It's entirely possible that Sirius had no say in the disposition of > the house. If he inherited it from Mrs. Black, then it was probably > entailed since I can't imagine that if she had any discretion in the > matter she would have left it to her traitor son rather than > Narcissa instead. > > However, the money is probably his own, and I would hope he'd leave > a lot of it to Lupin. > > Magda Asian_lovr2: The matter of Entailments is sort of the monkey-wrench in the works. It's especially confusing to an American who typically doesn't see inheritance guided by the same rules as in Europe. By definition, an Entailment does the following - "2.To limit the inheritance of (property) to a specified succession of heirs. 3. To bestow or impose on a person or a specified succession of heirs". I think the standard Entailment in Europe is that the first born male direct decendant has top priority in inheriting the family estate. That is done to prevent the family fortune from being diluted through successive generations. In the US, all sons and daughters have equal claim to the estate unless a Will has been created setting specific guidelines. If there is no direct decendant, and no Will dictating distribution of the estate, the estate would be divided between nearest living relatives. I assume first priority would go to indirect first born males (Draco). However, the three cousins are actually closer to Sirius than Draco, so they would have some priority. You are right on one point, although you stated it differently. There are two estates; Sirius Black's personal estate which is primarily cash and probably has fewer encumbrances than the Black Family Estate which probably included money and property. Like others, I would really like to see Lupin get a piece of it. It's about time the guy finally got a break in life. I personally think Sirius DID leave a Will, but it will be handwritten by himself and probably witnessed by Lupin which leaves room for it to be contested. As I stated before, I think a fight between Harry and Draco over the matter would raise an interesting sub-plot. Harry wouldn't be interest in the money, but he would be furious at the idea of Draco getting it. Just a thought. Steve/Asian_lovr2 From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 06:47:29 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 06:47:29 -0000 Subject: Dudley Demented (???) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107236 > Antosha wrote: > > There's another possibility. Professor Lupin points out to Harry that the reason that he reacts so strongly to dementors, and the reason they are so drawn to him, is that his worst memory is particularly horrible, and therefore delicious to the creatures. > > Perhaps Dudley's worst memory is, in fact, also quite traumatic, so that a) one of the dementors sent to attack Harry is drawn instead to his cousin and b) the dementor has a particularly chilling (if I may use that word) effect on Dudley. . Carol responds: Then again, there are two Dementors, only one of which could suck the soul out of Harry. The other, being what he is, isn't going to watch quietly while another human (wizard or Muggle doesn't matter) is nearby. It wouldn't matter what Dudley's worst memory was, as long as he had one. (And we know he has at least two--a pig's tail and the tontongue toffee.) What would really matter is that he had some sort of happiness to suck out. (It's happiness, not misery, that they feed on. The bad memories are what's left after the happiness is gone. Remember Hagrid's description of the memories he was *left with* while he was around them? His father's death, the loss of Norbert--I forget the other one.)) I think maybe there's a bit of movie contamination here. In the movie, the Dementors are unmistakably attracted to Harry. In the book, he *reacts* strongly to them. That's not quite the same thing. Carol, who thinks that if the Dementors fed on unhappy memories and left you with happy ones, they wouldn't be quite so frightful (except for the soul-sucking and their slimy, bony hands and eyeless faces). Yecch! From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 06:56:42 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 06:56:42 -0000 Subject: Voldemort and the Prophesy --OOP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107237 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gelite67" wrote: > I guess I'm dense, but I don't see how gaining access to the prophesy > would help Voldemort. How would it be a weapon? > > Angie Asian_lovr2: Ahhh... but you only say that because you know what the Prophecy says, Voldemort does not. Since the Prophecy is the foundation of the whole conflict between himself and Harry, since it states that (he presumes) Harry will have the power to defeat him, he has by extention assumed that they may also be a clue to what Harry's power is, or how Harry will be able to defeat him, and may even go so far as to directly or indirectly indicate what Harry's weakness is. Without information, Voldemort is free to speculate all kind of possibilities, and that's what the Order wants. They want to keep Voldemort pre-occupied with the Prophecy, because that creates a distraction and keeps Voldemort underground. Once he finds out the Prophecy is useless, he can come out in full force. So, best not to let him know what it says. Now Voldemort assumes the Prophecy is destroy and therefore lost, so he's given up on that and is moving on. However, Dumbledore was able to keep Voldemort restrained for nearly a year using the Prophecy as bait. Just a thought. Steve/asian_lovr2 From sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 07:11:56 2004 From: sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com (sevenhundredandthirteen) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 07:11:56 -0000 Subject: New JKR FAQ Poll: Which is significant? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107238 Alla wrote: > > Number three sounds interesting, but I can see the possibility of > > this one turning to be not important at all. Valky responded: > As can I, Alla. which is why I am replying. Perhaps we might be > prudent to consider where we went wrong with Mark Evans before > deciding on our choice for this poll. I (Laurasia) reply: I voted for number two for this very reason. What if JKR just says "Dumbledore was referring to the last letter he sent Petunia." She could, you know. Option three may very well be something that *should* have been taken at face value but was overcomplicated by us all. (Mark Evans, anyone?) Option two, on the other hand, isn't asking to *explain* something which JKR may believe she had already sufficiently explained. It is asking for a pure fact. I voted for two because there is no possible way of knowing the answer to it unless JKR actually tells us. There's no clues or hints. Unless she tells us, we will never know. On the contrary, there are several *dozen* theories out there about what Dumbledore's howler means, and who Percy is working for. I also voted for 2 because I think it has the best chance of getting a complete answer (because it seems least crucial to the plot, which means JKR might be happy to divulge all). Remember- just because it's in her FAQ Poll doesn't mean she will answer in ordinary plain sentences. Look at her response to the Prophecy FAQ! She basically said 'Nice of you to notice that I've deviously snuck in a secret clue, but I can't answer that for you right now...' The howler is sending up giant 'carefully worded' flags to me. And if she spent a long time wording for the book, then I doubt she would confess all now. Incidentaly 'Where is Wormtail?' is the only question that can't be met with a 'no' answer. Both the Percy and howler questions can be met with 'Sorry, no. Your theorising was wrong.' In contrast, the Wormtail question *must* have an answer. The only way I can see the howler question getting a satisfactory answer is if she intends to reveal what it really means to Harry at the very start of the sixth book. Take the Mrs Figg example. JKR was happy to tell us that Figgy was part of the Old Crowd because we would know one chapter into OotP anyway. Although, now that I've just written that, the Durselys would probably be in the first chapter of book six, wouldn't they? And if there is an answer to the howler, it would probably be from Petunia, not Dumbledore... Whoa! Maybe I need to change my vote... ~<(Laurasia)>~ From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 08:04:31 2004 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (delwynmarch) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 08:04:31 -0000 Subject: JKR's narrative strategy (Was: Whose point of view ?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107239 carol wrote: > Anyway, the point is simply that the narrator is not the author, and > JKR, as author, has chosen to limit her narrator's omniscience. adi answered : > If the narrator is indeed different from the author, wouldn't it > raise the question of who it is? > You see, you are inventing a fictitious narrator, giving life to the > third person vein that the books are told from. I don't think the > narrator at least in this case is different from the author. Del replies : I am not a lit major, but I know enough about writing to answer anyway. It's an author's privilege to decide who is going to tell the story. It can be the author herself, one of the characters, or a narrator that has nothing to do with the story. Think of it as a commentator at a football game : he's not one of the players, but he's not God either. He's not involved in the match, but he doesn't know anything about what is going to happen. Moreover, he can only watch one thing at a time, so if he decided to concentrate on only one player throughout the whole game, we would know only what that player did and what the other players who are interacting with him did. It's the same with a limited omniscient narrator. Basically, JKR has gone and fetched some guy (I chose a guy so as not to confuse with her in my explanations) who doesn't know anything about Harry or the WW at first, and has asked him to be the narrator of her story. She arbitrarily (author's privilege) decided that he should tell things from Harry's point of view as often as possible, but she allowed him to change the point of view if necessary. So now she's playing her story in front of that guy and he's telling us what he sees. He is not one of the characters, he doesn't play any role in the story, but he's not the author either, because he doesn't know the whole story : he discovers it along with us. He doesn't know what is going to happen, this is the author's strict privilege. She *could* decide to share some information with the narrator if she wanted to, but I can't remember anywhere in the books where the narrator seems to know things he can't possibly know just by watching the story happen. I don't know if that helped, and I still hope Carol is going to give her own answer, especially if I got anything wrong :-) Del From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Thu Jul 22 09:17:53 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 05:17:53 -0400 Subject: Quick question re: Lupin's resignation Message-ID: <002201c46fcc$c626a750$1bc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 107240 Alla Said: "Although, when I reread Hagrid's quote, I am inclined to agree with Ava - it could be read that Snape told Slytherins that Lupin is resigning because he is a werewolf (after somebody else already slipped it)" DuffyPoo: 'No, Professor Dumbledore managed to convince Fudge that I was trying to save your lives.' He [Lupin] sighed. 'That was the final straw for Severus. I think the loss of the Order of Merlin hit him hard. So he - er - accidentally let slip that I am a werewolf this morning at breakfast.' Snape told the Slytherins and it would have spread like wildfire around the school. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From R.Vink2 at chello.nl Thu Jul 22 09:46:10 2004 From: R.Vink2 at chello.nl (Renee) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 09:46:10 -0000 Subject: Quick question re: Lupin's resignation . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107241 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mnaper2001" wrote: > Is there a part of OOTP I'm forgetting? > > Everyone said Snape let it slip that Lupin was a werewolf, but I > didn't necessarily read Hagrid's statement like that. He said > something like "Didn't you hear? Snape told the Slytherins this > morning. Professor Lupin is a werewolf and was roaming the grounds > last night. He's packing now." > > That could mean - Snape told the Slytherins Lupin was a werewolf this > morning, and now, as a result, Lupin's resigned. > > Or it could just mean, Snape told the Slytherins the news that Lupin > will no longer be with us, b/c he's a werewolf, I'm surprised it > hasn't gotten all around the school yet. > > Is there some other part that confirms that Snape actually leaked the > information, or is it all based on this quote from Hagrid? Renee: The book is a bit vague on this point. Hagrid says 1) that Snape told the Slytherins Lupin was a werewolf and 2) that Lupin resigned 'first thing this mornin'. Later, Lupin confirms Snape 'accidentally let slip that I am a werewolf this morning at breakfast'. We don't have an exact chronology, so it depends when 'first thing this mornin' is supposed to be. Is it before or after breakfast? Did Lupin resign because Snape had his little slip, or did he resign beforehand and independently of it, because he genuinely considered himself a danger to the school? From the text alone, this isn't clear. There are several possibilities: 1)Lupin resigned before breakfast. Snape didn't know this yet, and wanting to make sure Lupin would never return as a teacher to endanger the students, he let his secret slip. 2)as in 1), but Snape knew and just wanted to take revenge on Lupin for the missed Order of Merlin. 3)Returning from the forest after breakfast time, Lupin heard what Snape told the Slytherins by way of precaution. This made him decide to resign. 4)As in 3), but Snape let the secret slip to get back at Lupin. 1) contributes nothing but noble motives to both characters; 2) puts Snape in a less favourable light; 3) puts Lupin in a less favourable light, and in 4) both are flawed. Take your pick! What is obvious, though, is that it was Snape made sure the *students* (who were unaware yet of Lupin's condition) knew. Admittedly the movie has "someone", instead of Snape, but I don't attach too much importance to this. I would if the movie contradicted the book, but it doesn't. Renee From greatraven at hotmail.com Thu Jul 22 10:16:07 2004 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:16:07 -0000 Subject: An etymology for Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107242 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "theadimail" wrote: > Hi all, > I don't know whether anybody has suggested this elsewhere, because > I do not keep up with the etymology lists on the net, but the > etymology for Kreacher seems to me this. Kreacher, seems to be merely > a different spelling for the word 'creature'. Since Kreacher is > supposed to be what he is because of the (can we call it that?) racial > discrimination shown towards him by the other wizards. > Well, 'creature' seems to be the word that is used when you do not > look upon others as well as yourself, when this class of being is > upposed to be somehow lower than yours. When you hate somebody for > belonging to a certain class, they become 'creatures', don't they? > Um, that's it. It occured to me the first time I read the book but > I didn't know whether one posted things like this to the group. > Bye, > Adi Sue: Yes, Kreacher does, indeed, sound like "creature" andthat's probably what it means. JKR doesa lot of this Dickensian naming, as we've all noticed, with characters having appropriate names! :-) From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 22 11:19:28 2004 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:19:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Narrative strategy and Harry's death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040722111928.94599.qmail@web25108.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107243 --- ariston3344 wrote: > Any scene leading to Harry's death would obviously be THE > climax of the entire series - it's almost unthinkable to me that > such a scene would not be told from Harry's POV. But if it is > told from his POV, how would JKR smoothly handle Harry's > death itself? Hans' response: > I predict that Harry will go through the Gate of Saturn. > It's a symbolic death, but at the same time very real from a > story point of view. It will obviously be quite simple to tell this > from Harry's POV. ariston again: If Harry is able to come back to life after death, then that does more or less render the POV question moot. But JKR has gone on record saying, "once you're dead, you're dead. So, yeah, I'm afraid there will be no coming back for Harry's parents." Hans now: Yes I knew about Jo's statement there. However I see this as a paradox rather than a statement that makes Harry's return from Hades impossible. We have two seemingly irreconcilable statements: my assertion that Harry will pass through the Gate of Saturn and return, and Jo's statement that once you're dead you're dead. Until I've read Book 7 thoroughly and unless it proves me totally wrong I'm sticking to my theory that Harry Potter brings the ancient and ever new message of liberation from suffering and death, as brought by many of the sacred scriptures, legends, fairy tales etc. The Path of liberation culminates in the passage through the Gate of Saturn. I quote from my essay, which is filed under essays in the Group's files: "Saturn is represented in legends as the God of death and time, and in Rosicrucian traditions the Gate of Saturn is the end of life in this fallen universe. Every human being passes through the Gate of Saturn at the end of every incarnation. A new incarnation follows later. However when the candidate on the Path of Liberation passes through the Gate of Saturn this is a totally different kind of death. The Gate of Saturn represents the death of the total self-sacrifice of the fallen human being, and the resurrection of the original divine human being in an indestructible body of unsurpassable majesty and glory." In other words there are two ways of passing through the Gate of Saturn: one as a normal person at the end of every incarnation INVOLUNTARILY and one as the final stage in the process of liberation, VOLUNTARILY. The latter death is the final dissolution of all that is mortal, finite, and not in accordance with the plan of the Potter of the universe. This death is more like the shedding of an old coat which has been useful in the past but has now been replaced by a refulgent vesture of everlasting quality. The difference is that one is involuntary and one is voluntary (This has not the remotest connection with suicide of course). I think that is where the paradox will be reconciled. I think Harry will go through the Gate voluntarily, and that is why I think he'll be able to come back. Sirius and Harry's parents went involuntarily and so what Jo said applies to them. I've been thinking aloud while writing this and I now feel quite happy that this is the key. I also refer members to the posts on returning from Hades in the Greek legends. How Jo will turn all this into a ripping yarn is beyond my imagination. I'll be very interested to see whether other members feels satisfied that I've solved the paradox. Hans in Holland ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jul 22 11:29:13 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:29:13 -0000 Subject: Doesn't Voldemort know about Snape's loyalty? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107244 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gelite67" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Pat" wrote: > > Peter: > > > > I was reading PS/SS and it dawned on me--if Quirrell > > > > knew that Snape was loyal to Dumbledore, and Quirrell > > > > was possessed by Voldemort, wouldn't Voldemort know > > > > that Snape is in the OOTP? > > > > > > James said: > > > > > > >> He wouldn't know Snape is in the Order, > > > because I highly doubt that the teachers sit around in the lounge > > > discussing it. > > > > Angie wonders, too: > > Excellent question, I think. Voldemort wouldn't have to know > anything about the Order to know that Snape was trying to prevent > Quirrell from getting the Stone, which would mean he was working > against Voldemort. Potioncat: But LV did not reveal himself to anyone. Quirrell hadn't been a DE, he had been "recruited" more recently. If Snape suspected something, he most likely made it appear that he wanted the stone for himself. I doubt that between Snape and Quirrell the LV-DD situation even came up. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 11:41:19 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:41:19 -0000 Subject: Quick question re: Lupin's resignation . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107245 Renee: slip. > What is obvious, though, is that it was Snape made sure the > *students* (who were unaware yet of Lupin's condition) knew. > Admittedly the movie has "someone", instead of Snape, but I don't > attach too much importance to this. I would if the movie > contradicted the book, but it doesn't. > Alla: Too true, Renee and surprisingly I place full blame on Snape :o). I am just open to the possibility that there maybe was another Voldie agent at Hogwarts. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Thu Jul 22 11:41:59 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:41:59 -0000 Subject: When Harry met Sally (was: Re: Incomplete Prophecy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107246 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gelite67" wrote: > > Angie agrees: > > snip> > And while I'm at it, I'd love to know who it was that overheard the > prophecy and spilled it to Voldemort. Dumbledore refers to the > person as "he" and states that because "he" only heard the first part > of the prophecy, "he" could not inform "his master" about > transferring Voldemort's powers. > Now that's an interesting observation, because so far as I can see the Prophecy does not say anything about a transfer of powers, yet DD seems to take it for granted that 'marking' equals 'power transfer': "...he could not warn his master that to attack you would be to risk transferring power to you, and marking you as his equal." So maybe the scar isn't so much an injury incurred by deflecting a curse but is instead a manifestation, a label, indicating a transfer of power. This ties in with an exchange way back at the beginning of PS/SS: "Is that where -?" whispered Professor McGonagall. "Yes," said Dumbledore."He'll have that scar for ever." "Couldn't you do something about it, Dumbledore?" "Even if I could, I wouldn't. Scars can come in useful...." We've taken it for granted that whenever Voldy starts acting up, so does the scar; it itches, it hurts. A useful early warning device for Harry - "Time to watch your step, son; he's up to something." It's obviously sensitive to, directly linked to, Voldy's mind. The obvious interpretation is that the scar is a sort of vaccination mark; that it has some sort of protective function. I don't think so. It's not really part of Harry at all; it's a transplanted bit of Voldy. Adds a new dimension to the phrase "I gave him a piece of my mind." Somewhere in Harry is essence of Voldy, but as DD observes in OoP "in essence divided" - the two factions, Harry and Voldy, have not combined - yet. Bits have leaked over - Parseltongue being one. It might also add piquancy to the Sorting Hat's comments: ..."you could be great, you know, it's all here in your head, and Slytherin will help you on the way to greatness, no doubt about that..." Now this is a bit far out, and you probably won't agree, but there's a possibility that when the Sorting Hat refers to Slytherin it's not on about Slytherin House, but Salazar Slytherin. You can stop laughing now. It goes back to the Possession posts I wrote in February - that Voldy is a combination of TR and an SS entity that leeched onto him in the Chamber; an entity that changed him from an obnoxious little snot full of petty vindictiveness into a full-blown public health hazard. Now being sorted into Slytherin might influence Harry's attitudes, but I can't see that it would necessarily help him to become great. He might turn out to be another TR - bitter, petty, selfish - but great? Greatness would need power - lots of it, and if Harry had that much power *of his own* he could be great anywhere, not just in Slytherin House. But old Sally - that's a different matter. He was one of the greatest wizards in history. Accepting his guidance, becoming in effect his avatar, would result in power doubleplus ungood. Harry really would be Voldy's equal - quite literally. And this links back to the Prophecy again which says that "..he will mark him as his equal..." not, you will note, not his *opposite*, which is what many posters automatically assume is the meaning. *If* Voldy is TR + SS and *if* transfer occurred at Godric's Hollow, then part of the Voldy essence in Harry is Salazar Slytherin - QED. And that's what the Sorting Hat can see inside Harry's head; that's the source of the power that would help him to greatness, the terrible but great things that Ollivander was so impressed by. What we have here is the second recorded case of magically induced schizophrenia (the first being TR). I foresee an internal struggle which will decide which faction becomes dominant. Harry has powers transferred from Voldy: he'd be wise not to use them. Get into that habit and who knows where it'll all end. It'll probably boil down to one of DD's choices eventually. Kneasy From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jul 22 11:46:16 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:46:16 -0000 Subject: Quick question re: Lupin's resignation . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107247 > Renee: > snip > > Admittedly the movie has "someone", instead of Snape, but I don't attach too much importance to this. I would if the movie > > contradicted the book, but it doesn't. > > > Alla: > > Too true, Renee and surprisingly I place full blame on Snape :o). I am just open to the possibility that there maybe was another Voldie agent at Hogwarts. Potioncat: Keep in mind that the movies have always softened Snape's behavior. And after showing him protecting the Trio, and not showing his tantrum, having him reveal the secret wouldn't make sense in the movie. Of all the scenes to cut, why the major fit throwing! Potioncat From pcaehill2 at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 22 12:10:09 2004 From: pcaehill2 at sbcglobal.net (pcaehill2) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:10:09 -0000 Subject: Books 6 & 7 - tragedy or triumph? In-Reply-To: <20040721213146.98012.qmail@web25102.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107248 caspenzoe wrote: [snip] > You have some very fascinating ideas Hans. However, I think you are > over-applying them. Ron and Hermione will not be decapitated in >any literal sense. Hans replied: [snip] > But the point of all this is: to be able to deliver the bombshell >there's going to have to be some pretty earth-shattering things >happening at the end. There are going to have to be deaths and >shocking events. Only then will the story have any impact on a >humanity bogged down in doubt and despair. However I feel sure, as >does Jen Reese, that there will be no gratuitous violence. and Pam adds her 2 cents: Well, I do agree with caspenzoe, in that the alchemical metaphor may be present, but I'm not convinced it is woven so thoroughly throughout the story, nor as "point-by-point" as Hans believes. However, I did think of 2 "bloodless" decapitation possibilities: 1) Having one's head "stuck" in the fireplace when communicating via Floo powder (as Umbridge nearly caught Sirius--I'm still not sure what could have happened if she'd actually grabbed hold of his head-- could she have pulled the rest of him thru the Floo system and into her office?) 2) "Splinching" or incomplete apparation. From hunibuni22 at webtv.net Thu Jul 22 12:16:12 2004 From: hunibuni22 at webtv.net (tjbailey24) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:16:12 -0000 Subject: The Four Magical Brethren In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107249 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > Hi all, > I was just hoping to get a little feedback on this particular musing > of mine. > In the Fountain of Magical Brethren there are distinctly four types, > (or races whatever you may call them). > The 'Human' Wizard and Witch, the 'Goblin', the 'Elf' and > the 'Centaur'. > > I realised at some point while musing another thread that the Four > Magical Brethren have something in common with Hogwarts: > Namely "Four Magical Brethren" > > I will, tentatively, put to you all that this is not merely > coincedence. (tenatively because I dont have a lot of time for an > enourmous essay in support of it and the list can be a bit > unforgiving if one doesn't.) > > I have a sketchy draft of a theory that might help a bit so here it > is: > > The Wizard/Witch Human: Salazar Slytherin ; definately Human, with > an indisputable record for 100% Wizard superiority but not > necessarily Human!Wizard superiority. > > The Goblin: Helga Hufflepuff ; the name is very Goblinish, and > goblins are one of the two hardest working of the Brethren. > > The Centaur: Rowena Ravenclaw ; again 'Rowena' is an elegant name > reminiscent of names of the centaurs we have met in the books, and > the "*Purest* Intelligence" and "wisdom" ramblings are a dead > giveaway, I am willing to bet she's Centaur regardless. > > The Elf: Godric Gryffindor; Godric is reminiscent, to me anyway, of > Tolkien Elf names. > > If any are out of their order I would be inclined to pick Godric and > Helga, because the attributes of hardworking and loyal are fitting > of elves in so many ways and our Godric clue is a sword which could > indicate Goblin. > > Ok, so whatever you will with that, dear list. > > Best to All > Valky Tara writes: I thought of The Fountain of Magical Brethren completely differently. Thats why I love this list... you can get so many new ideas!! Anyway, I've come to see the fountain (which 'brethren' means brotherhood to any of those who do not know) as a symbol of unity between the wizarding world... I'm not sure exactly who I view the wizard and witch to be... but there are certainly plenty of heroic ones in this series that could fit... Dumbledore and McGonagall, Harry and Hermione, James and Lily.. (anyone who is united against the dark arts basically). Then, we have met Dobby who is a house elf and very commited to Harry and to Dumbledore and very against Voldemort. We have the new centaur, Firenze, who is commited to Dumbledore (especially since he was disbanned from the forest for his "human" favoring). The only thing we are missing is a goblin and who knows goblins best but Bill Weasley? In fact in OoP, Arthur talks to Bill asking if he's had a chance to bring the goblins around, one in particular being named, Ragnok. Not sure myself if this anything to do with ANYTHING but anything is possible I assume. From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Thu Jul 22 13:53:18 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:53:18 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 23: Christmas On The Closed Ward In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107250 > ariston finally decides to plunk down two knuts: > > > I guess I'm kind of raining on the parade here, but I actually don't > think this takes away from Alice's gifts to Neville being deeply > touching. In the limited way that she's still capable of, Alice is > expressing love. But when I pause to think just *how* limited that > is -- that Alice has been reduced to THIS -- that there might not be > any significance to the gum wrappers at all, that perhaps for all > Alice knows she's giving Neville pocket fluff or something deadly or > a million galleons -- then I feel the pathos of the situation, and > the utter horror of what the DEs did to her and Frank, much more > strongly. Azkaban was better, really, than those four DEs deserved. > -ariston boyd: Well said! Many point out that the mere fact that JKR spends so much time on this scene indicates that there is something more significant going on, e.g. gum wrappers=message to Neville. But isn't it just as likely that this is one of the few times that JKR actually shows us the horrors visited on the WW during LV's first reign of terror? Have we seen many killings? No, and perhaps because this is a book that will be read by children. But JKR has to make clear just *why* LV's way is bad in very personal terms for her audience. This hospital scene is a very powerful example of exactly that. We feel Neville's anguish, see what two aurors are reduced to, and begin to realize the very human cost of a tyrant like Voldemort. --boyd Nymphadora Tonks = Had T. Prank My Son. Of course! Tonks is secretly Neville's mother and she's hiding it with a Trevor-induced memory-charm! Hmmm, a new incredibly unlikely plotline to follow.... ;) From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Thu Jul 22 14:30:31 2004 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:30:31 -0000 Subject: JKR's narrative strategy (Was: Whose point of view ?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107251 > > Pam wrote: > > > I also have thought that the Little Hangleton scene > > > may be the narrator presenting Harry's dream (remember > > > his link to Voldemort), sort of like a television screen > > > in his mind. In this sense, the scene isn't deviating > > > from Harry's POV at all . . . . > > James replied: > > It seems to me that the POV in this chapter is indeed the > > POV of Frank Bryce. Why? Because Harry's dreams are always > > from Voldemort's point of view - as far as we know he's > > never had a dream from the POV of someone close to > > Voldemort or interfearing with Voldemort. > Pam replied: > You're right; taken alone, it's definitely from Frank's POV > (the history of the Riddle family & his own past, his > perception of trouble at the manor that night, etc.). > OTOH (and there's *always* an 'other hand'!!), who's to say > that Voldemort (via Nagini, perhaps?) couldn't have been > aware of Frank from the start, delved into his past mind, > and then tracked his movements until he climbed the stairs. > Then (and only then) could the first chapter have been > Harry's dream/shared Voldemort mind. Two things. First, I don't think that we are supposed to believe that Harry experienced the dream either from Voldemort's point of view or from Frank's. Based on his recollection, at any rate, he seems to have experienced it as an objective observer. Harry remembers that "at the moment when Voldemort's chair had swung around, and he, Harry, had seen what was sitting in it, he had felt a spasm of horror, which had awoken him." He also remembers the "picture" of a darkened room in which he saw Pettigrew and Nagini (whose name he does not remember), which does not sound like the POV of Voldemort, who was facing the fire. That much could be from Frank's point of view, but Harry also remembers "watch[ing]" Frank fall to the ground (he also does not know Frank's name). I think the explanation most consistent with the rest of the story is that Harry observed the scene much as he observed the Pensieve memories: connected to Voldemort, but not from within him. Second, although this is a tangential point, it is not correct that the whole Little Hangleton scene is told from Frank's point of view. The chapter begins with an omniscient narrator recounting the story of the 1944 murders. There are a number of aspects that are distinctly independent of Frank's POV, such as the expressed view of the people of Little Hangleton that the house is "creepy," the conversations in the village pub after Frank has been arrested, the thoughts of the police upon reading the coroner's report ("never read an odder report"), and the psychology of the boys who liked to break into the Riddle house ("They knew that old Frank's devotion to the house and the grounds amounted almost to an obsession, and it amused them to see him limping across the garden, brandishing his stick and yelling croakily at them"). The shift to Frank's point of view is signalled midway through the chapter by the sentence "It was Frank's bad leg that woke him; it was paining him worse than ever in his old age." From that point on, the narrator follows Frank's point of view until Voldemort kills him and the story shifts to Harry's point of view. -- Matt From happybean98 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 14:42:43 2004 From: happybean98 at yahoo.com (happybean98) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:42:43 -0000 Subject: Snape a vampire? (was Snape's Patronus) In-Reply-To: <1e4.25966545.2e30874a@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107252 Jim wrote: > > >JKR has said flat-out he's not. > Luckdragon wrote: > > Actually if I have the right quotation you are referring to JKR when > > asked if Snape is a vampire says, "Erm...I don't think so". This is > > not a flat out denial! She seems to hedge around a bit rather than > > saying "No!" Maybe a direct answer would have given too much away. Julie: > With Snape's physical description (deliberately?) > evocative of vampires, and JKR's hedging a bit on that question, I do > think there's a good chance Snape has some connection to vampires/bats. happybean98: I too am holding JKR's answer suspect. It doesn't seem quite typical of her usual 'answering' style. Usually she acknowledges something about the question if the asker is on the wrong track. For instance, the Hermione/Draco SHIP question got a response that acknowledged how it might have come from the fact that some girls like Tom Felton's looks. I was astonished that her answer to Vampire!Snape didn't include some reference to where we went 'wrong',for instance. "Well,Snape is rather unpleasant and nasty, but they don't serve blood at the school feasts, which he attends." Or maybe, "Snape's already a DE, isn't that enough for him to be going on with?" Or even, "No, he's not a vampire. Too much 'Silence of the Lambs' will do this to a person." The uncharacteristic vagueness and lack of explanation makes me think she was pulling a 'Dobby' (when he denied the connection of Voldemort to the danger Harry was in during CoS.) Some will think I'm in denial, but she didn't put it to rest as well as several other, much more unlikely theories . happybean98 From ariston3344 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 08:01:04 2004 From: ariston3344 at yahoo.com (ariston3344) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 08:01:04 -0000 Subject: Voldemort and the Prophesy --OOP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107253 Steve/asian_lovr2 wrote: > However, Dumbledore was able to keep Voldemort restrained for > nearly a year using the Prophecy as bait. Quite right! And he might have been able to use it as bait for even longer if he had just had someone in the Order tell Harry even a little of what was going on! At a minimum, "Hey, Harry, I think Occlumency's a good idea because Voldy might try to trick you into going to the DoM. Don't go without orders from the Order." Just venting. :) -ariston From mhbobbin at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 10:00:45 2004 From: mhbobbin at yahoo.com (mhbobbin) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:00:45 -0000 Subject: Voldemort and the Prophesy---OOP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107254 Angie wrote: I guess I'm dense, but I don't see how gaining access to the prophesy would help Voldemort. How would it be a weapon? mhbobbin: I have the same problem with the prophecy. It doesn't tell LV how to kill Harry. I see three possible answers to this problem--none of which preclude the others: 1. We haven't been told the entire prophecy--as outlined recently by other posters. If there's the possibility of LV still accessing Harry's thoughts, it wouldn't be wise for DD to tell Harry the whole prophecy. 2. Keeping the prophecy from Voldemort is more important than what the prophecy actually says. 3. The weapon that is discussed in OOP isn't really the Prophecy but Harry himself. The Order would like LV to believe the Prophecy is THE weapon. In typical JKR fashion, Harry overhears bits and pieces about THE weapon. The Order is busy with guard duty on the weapon. Later, we learn that Harry has been tailed by the Order while visiting Hogsmeade. Which was THE weapon--Harry or the Prophecy orb? Mhbobbin From griffin782002 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 11:25:00 2004 From: griffin782002 at yahoo.com (sp. sot.) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 04:25:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape a vampire? (was Snape's Patronus) In-Reply-To: <7b.2efe8817.2e30a4bc@aol.com> Message-ID: <20040722112500.3366.qmail@web90004.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107255 Batchevra at aol.com wrote: The Vampire essay was not right after the Werewolf essay. The Werewolf essay was in November, the Vampire essay was in March, apparently 4 months had gone by and Lupin kept to his schedule of what he was going to teach. As for the potion, it doesn't prevent Lupin from transforming into a werewolf during the full moon, it keeps him aware of who he is while in the transformation and able to overcome his need to bite a human being. Griffin782002 now: I also do not believe that Snape is a vampire. And I belive there is an indication anout that in OotP. In "Snape's worst memory" he is sitting under a tree, after the exam, in broad daylight. Snape is probably a skilled potion maker, but was he in his student years. I do not think that he was that good in his early years, unless of course the potions teacher of his time was helping him. Griffin782002 From lorelei3dg at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 11:39:31 2004 From: lorelei3dg at yahoo.com (lorelei3dg) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:39:31 -0000 Subject: James gave his life, why no protection from him? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107256 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: So I wouldn't be at all surprised if the > lightning-shaped scar was really an eihwaz (defense) rune. > > Carol, hoping she spelled eihwaz correctly because she didn't look it up Lorel says: (Hehe, you spelled it right.) I'm not sure if this has been addressed before - or if you were actually making a reference to this in the first place - but during OWL exams in OotP, Hermione is upset because she herself made a very similar mistake: "I mistranslated 'ehwaz,'" said Hermione furiously. "It means 'partnership,' not 'defense,' I mixed it up with eiwhaz." I didn't even make the connection to the discussion of Harry's scar until I read your comment about the spelling. Has everyone else already noticed that JKR used the term? It has the potential to be another one of those very casually placed clues. Lorel From lorelei3dg at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 11:52:14 2004 From: lorelei3dg at yahoo.com (lorelei3dg) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:52:14 -0000 Subject: Remember my last, Petunia! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107257 Gina: > >Maybe DD sent it but it was not his voice? Maybe someone else left the > >message for DD to send Petunia if she ever tried to send Harry away??? Actually, upon rereading OotP last night, I found this exchange between Harry and DD at the very end (Chapter 37): "Wait," said Harry. "Wait a moment." He sat up straighter in his chair, staring at Dumbledore. "You sent that Howler. You told her to remember - it was your voice -" "I thought," said Dumbledore, inclining his head slightly, "that she might need reminding of the pact she had sealed by taking you." It seems pretty straightforward to me - DD did send the Howler, and for a clear reason. The only mystery seems to be that surrounding the type of pact that was made. From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 12:51:28 2004 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 05:51:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Quick question re: Lupin's resignation . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040722125128.81438.qmail@web50102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107258 Snape told his Slytherins that Lupin was a werewolf because they had to know in order to protect themselves if the worst happened - again. Werewolves ARE dangerous to others; Lupin never denies it and in the Shrieking Shack indicates how much he regrets the risks they ran when they were teens running around the community as animagi when he transformed. That's why he takes the Wolfsbane potion. This is one of those times when we're really hampered by seeing everything through Harry's eyes. He doesn't realize that there are greater safety issues here than just whether everyone got through the night safely. Lupin resigned before Dumbledore asked for his resignation because it was no longer possible for Lupin to stay there and risk another transformation. It was the honourable thing to do for both of them. Now, Lupin is a great guy and one of the most attractive characters in the series but that doesn't mean he's a saint. He doesn't like Snape and he knows that Snape would have enjoyed "outing" him in front of his own students. So he gets his dig in at Snape by implying that it was Snape's disappointment over losing the Order of Merlin that precipitated his resignation, rather than his failure to take the potion in the first place. This also reinforces Harry's growing feeling that Snape can't and shouldn't be trusted - with results that we see in OOTP. Does anyone really think that if Snape hadn't told, that Lupin would have stayed? Or that Dumbledore would have allowed him to stay? As for how Fudge found out: I think it's the same kind of public safety thing. Once Lupin had transformed into a werewolf and was loose in the area, then Dumbledore had no choice but to make the matter known to the authorities. Otherwise he would have been guilty of putting the community at risk. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From drliss at comcast.net Thu Jul 22 12:37:40 2004 From: drliss at comcast.net (drliss at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:37:40 +0000 Subject: Sirius's Will Message-ID: <072220041237.11036.40FFB513000DBA0200002B1C22007589429C9C07049D0B@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 107259 Magda: It's entirely possible that Sirius had no say in the disposition of the house. If he inherited it from Mrs. Black, then it was probably entailed since I can't imagine that if she had any discretion in the matter she would have left it to her traitor son rather than Narcissa instead. However, the money is probably his own, and I would hope he'd leave a lot of it to Lupin. Lissa: Magda, I thought the same thing. The only thing I noticed is that JKR pointed out that when the Order met Harry at King's Cross at the end of the term, Lupin was looking even more threadbare than usual. I'm guessing that was her way of trying to depict Lupin's grief without being blaringly obvious about it, but who knows? We do know she doesn't like to open up brand new mysteries at the end of a book.... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From griffin782002 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 13:31:01 2004 From: griffin782002 at yahoo.com (sp. sot.) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 06:31:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius's Will In-Reply-To: <20040721213838.13172.qmail@web25308.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040722133101.72559.qmail@web90004.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107260 luckdragon64 wrote: Who will inherit the Black family fortune and home now that Sirius is dead? Will he have made provisions for Harry to inherit as his Godson or will the cousins Bellatrix and Narcissa inherit? If the cousins inherit the home where will the Order of the Phoenix relocate to? I'm hoping Sirius has left it all to Harry including the flying motorbike. Wouldn't that tick off old Mrs. Black (portrait), Kreacher, and the evil cousins! Griffin782002 now: If I am not wrong, there were some posts weeks ago about the Black house. Well I suggest, just some other members to cut a large piece of the wall with that nasty portait of Mrs Black, together with that stupid tapestry to the Malfoys and let them enjoy her screams and proud ancestry all day, oh, yes acompanied by Kreacher. It's sound evil, does it ? ;-) Griffin782002 From drliss at comcast.net Thu Jul 22 12:30:36 2004 From: drliss at comcast.net (drliss at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:30:36 +0000 Subject: Lupin's resignation Message-ID: <072220041230.18322.40FFB36C000419B10000479222007621949C9C07049D0B@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 107261 Mayeaux45: It's quite interesting that we assume that it was Snape that told on Lupin...But I don't think he did. What would he have to gain? It's pretty obvious that DD is not going to EVER let him teach DADA and he didn't get any "recognition" for Lupins' secret being revealed. Snape is a "true" Slytherin IMO. He's cunning! That would explain why he decided that instead of 'leaking' the info. about Lupin in PoA, he would just assign an essay to the class about werewolves. Of course Hermione, being the 'bright witch' that she is, uncovered the truth about him as soon as the essay was assigned. Also to further my point that Snape had relatively nothing to do with Lupin's resignation, there is the line spoken by Lupin in the PoA movie "It would seem that *someone* has revealed the nature of my...condition". We already know that JKR reads over the scripts and trust Steve Kloves immensely, so I believe that particular line to be 'telling' (maybe even for books 6&7). Because if not Snape...then WHO? Hermione surely wouldn't have told anyone. Is there someone at Hogwarts that we have not yet been introduced to? Only time will tell... Lissa: Oh, Snape told. There is absolutely NO doubt in my mind about that!!!!! Someone already posted the quote from Hagrid, and Lupin himself confirmed it (I think?) The entire staff- and Fudge- knew that Lupin was a werewolf. There are laws pertaining to werewolves, and they must be registered. (Thus the reason Lupin can't get work.) After all, don't you think DD would have hired Lupin over Lockheart if he could overcome the Ministry's objections? Snape was FURIOUS at the end of PoA. Black got away. I think there is nothing Snape would have liked better than to see Black back in Azkaban. But Black's gone. Snape can't do anything about that. Harry and Hermione (whom Snape is quite right to think helped Black escape!) are under DD's protection. Who is there left to take his rage out on? Lupin. He didn't gain anything material, no. But I'll bet driving an old enemy- especially one closely associated with the man he truly hated (I never picked up -quite- the same level of animosity between Lupin and Snape)- really soothed his pride a bit. And since Lupin is registered as a werewolf, when Snape lets it slip to the Slytherins, there's no denying it. Snape may be on the side of good, but he's still an incredibly nasty person, especially where the mauraders are involved! Lissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ryokas at hotmail.com Thu Jul 22 13:45:52 2004 From: ryokas at hotmail.com (kizor0) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:45:52 -0000 Subject: An etymology for Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107262 Adi: the (excellently translated) Finnish version gives the house-elf's name as "Oljo". While this hasn't sounded like anything (other than an unpleasantly squishy word) to me before, come to think of it, one of the Finnish words for "creature" are the more formal "olento" and the simpler "olio" (for all you linguistic nuts, from "olla", to be). "Oljo" and "olio" are pronounced almost exactly the same; the only difference is between the i and the j. This, I think, lends credecens... creden... believeability to your point. - Kizor From rowansjet at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 14:10:04 2004 From: rowansjet at yahoo.com (rowansjet) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:10:04 -0000 Subject: Ginny and the entrancing Veil Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107263 In the scene where we are introduced to the Veil in the Department of Mysteries(pg. 682, OotP UK edition), there are several points where the author notes that some people are 'mesmerised' by the veil, and can hear whispering voices. Hermione and Ron are unaffected and seem particularly worried about it, while Harry and Luna can both hear voices and are atracted too it. However, I was most intrigued by this quote (pg 683, OotP uk edition): "...Ginny and Neville were staring, apparently entranced, at the veil too." What interests me about this quote is that Ginny is affected. First, the room the Veil is located in is most probably the Death Chamber that Dumbledore mentions later on, based on where the Death Eaters are being held. Now we know that Harry, Luna and Neville have seen someone die, by the fact that they can see the Thestrals, but Ginny has not, because she cannot see the thestrals. So we have to rule out the fact that the Veil works in a similair way to Thestrals. Of course, based on JKR's response to why Harry couldn't see the Thestrals at the end of GoF, Ginny may not REMEMBER seeing someone die, due to an obliviate spell, so it isn't sunken in, but she could have experienced/seen death at some point. However this idea is too similair to the ideas that Neville's forgetfulness is related to an Obliviate spell when he could just have poor memory for some things. A member of a Harry Potter Forum I visited, though I cannot remember where or who, postulated that it was because of her near death experience at the hands of Tom Riddle. I am unconvinced as it is a very different cause than the others have for the attraction to the veil but it is a possibility. Neither of these two ideas particularly appeal to me so hopefully, JKR will come up with a better explanation at some point, either in interviews or in the books, preferably the books, because that means it has some importance. Of course that doen't stop us from coming up with more ideas about the books Rowan Sjet(posting for the first time on HP4GU) From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Thu Jul 22 15:00:11 2004 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:00:11 -0000 Subject: Stalagmites & stalagtites? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107264 --- Carol wrote: > Since JKR used to be a French teacher, I'm betting that > [the French] mnemonic was *exactly* what she had in mind! Perhaps, though it does not seem the sort of thing one would likely learn in studying or teaching a language; one would need to have studied geology in French or heard it repeated by someone who did. It also doesn't explain why *Hagrid* as opposed to Rowling herself would have it in mind. So I think my impression (that Hagrid was supposed to have misremembered the English-language rule) is more likely. -- Matt From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Thu Jul 22 15:22:26 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:22:26 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape a vampire? (was Snape's Patronus) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107265 Griffin782002 now: I also do not believe that Snape is a vampire. And I belive there is an indication anout that in OotP. In "Snape's worst memory" he is sitting under a tree, after the exam, in broad daylight. Gina: I think the biggest clue for Snape being a Vampire is what James said to Lily - not an ezact quote, but something like "It's not what he has done, but more that he exists". Think about the word "exists". That says to me that Snape has always been something James considers horrible. He is saying that he despises the fact Snape is alive. Now, if Snape has not "done" anything to James that tells me Snape must be something horrible (a vampire maybe). The only thing that leads me to go against that theory is that he does not consider Lupin (a werewolf) horrible. However, I think it is important to note in Snape's worst memory Lupin was the only one other than Lily NOT laughing! So maybe that is because Lupin did not choose to become what he is and Snape did. Gina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From snow15145 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 15:27:50 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:27:50 -0000 Subject: Dudley Demented (???) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107266 Snow (me) previously wrote: >> Lets look at what young wizards of Dudley's age had to say about the experience of meeting a dementor and match it to what Dudley himself had to say when the dementor attacked him. > Now lets match this up with what muggle Dudley had to say: > > OOP pg. 30 "All dark," Dudley said hoarsely, shuddering. "Everything > dark. And then I h-heard things. Inside m-my head " > OOP PG.31 "horrible," croaked Dudley. "Cold. Really cold." > " " " " "Felt felt felt as if as if " "As if you'd never be > happy again," Harry supplied dully. "Yes," Dudley whispered, still > trembling. > > Dudley in just the few statements he made expressed the sentiments of > all the other child wizards. In fact Dudley's reaction was more like > Harry and Ginny even Malfoy. Dudley threw up and was shaking, feeling > extremely faint. Even some of the young wizards like Fred, George, > Ron and Neville were not affected to "this" degree. > > Now take a look at the attack on Dudley from the dementor: > > OOP pg 19 Dudley was curled on the ground, his arms clamped over his > face; a second dementor was crouching low over him, gripping his > wrists in its slimy hands, prizing them slowly, almost lovingly apart > > The dementor took Dudley's hands away from his face. Dudley may have > had his eyes shut tight but he must have felt the dementor grab at > his wrists and pry his arms away from his face. How could he not feel the tugging of something forcing his arms away from his face so that he could be kissed? > > Here lies the conflict; did Dudley see the dementor? Did he have his > eyes shut? What is meant specifically by "feel their presence"; is > it "sense" their presence or "physically" feel their presence? If it > is sense their presence then why did Dudley obviously feel something > pry his arms from his face? > . Dudley appears to be a hidden wizard to me. Carol responds: Although these are interesting passages, Dudley doesn't say that he *saw* the Dementors, as he surely would have done if he'd really seen them. Instead he reports *hearing* voices in his head. All he *saw* was darkness. As numerous posters have pointed out, Harry shouted to him to keep his mouth closed no matter what. Dudley, if you recall, has been the victim of magical mischief twice, once involving his mouth (tongue) and he's protecting that vulnerable part of him, IMO, partly because of that memory and partly because of Harry's words. Remember that in GoF he claps his hands over his bottom to protect it--his previous experience with magic involved a pig's tail. As for feeling their presence versus feeling their hands prying his hands away from his mouth, I think they're two different things. Presumably Muggles are not the Dementors' normal prey, just as Muggles don't have Doxies in their curtains. Any Muggle whose soul had been sucked wouldn't have been able to report the experience of feeling the Dementor's horrible hands. And we can't even be sure that Dudley *did* feel them since he only reports cold, extreme unhappiness, and hearing voices in his head. And Harry yells at Dudley, "COME BACK! YOU'RE RUNNING RIGHT AT IT!" (OoP Am. ed. ). Obviously if Dudley could see the Dementor, he'd have done no such thing. Snow: Two things come to mind for me about this last statement. The first is that Dudley couldn't have seen the dementor even if he were able to see dementors because it was too dark to dark for him to even see Harry. OOP pg. 16 "I'll t-tell Dad!" Dudley whimpered. "W-where are you? What are you d-do-?" The second is that Dudley was so scared that he started to run blindly down the alleyway where Harry suspected that the first dementor was. OOP pg. 17 "You moron, Dudley?" Harry yelled, his eyes watering with pain, as he scrambled to his hands and knees, now feeling around frantically in the blackness. He heard Dudley blundering away, hitting the alley fence, stumbling. Carol: Again, I think that he kept his mouth tightly shut with his hands clamped over it because the desperation in Harry's voice convinced him that was the only way to protect himself. He certainly didn't know about the Dementor's kiss, but he did know that very unpleasant things could happen to his mouth. And he could sense that something horrible was near him. But if he had actually seen something as terrible as a Dementor, he would surely have fainted or screamed or run the other direction--*not* toward it. That makes no sense at all. Snow: Harry was able to sense the dementors presence because he had experienced it before and was attempting to look for the source. (Throughout the description of this scene with the dementors, Harry is relating this experience to ones he has previously had.) Dudley on the other hand was reacting to the feelings that the dementor was causing (thinking it was Harry causing it) but not having experienced it before would not know what or where the source (dementor) was along with the fact that it was too dark to see. Carol, who doesn't understand why anyone would *want* bully!Dudley to be a wizard or believe that he could be one despite the narrator's statements in *every book* that the Dursleys are Muggles Snow: I don't particularly care one way or the other if Dudley is magical or not but if Dudley does possess some magic to what advantage would magical Dudley be to the story? Unless it would be to teach the Dursleys not to be prejudice. Kind of like don't talk badly about other people's children or you may end up with one just like them. Other than that I can't honestly see where Dudley being magical would help or hurt Harry. From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 22 15:37:41 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:37:41 -0000 Subject: Who would love Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107267 "potioncat" wrote: [snip] > I wonder at the hair that is always referred to as greasy, not > oily. It must be pretty bad. Why is it like that? [snip] > I also > have a horrible thought about Snape's hair, but I'm hoping it isnt' > true. My immediate thought was that he must have been in contact with arsenic over the long time he has been concocting potions. This recalled a character in one of Katharine Kerr's Deverry novels who was an assassin and had become mostly immune to arsenic through taking small doses but was given away by the hair effect. Back in RL, t it used to be that ladies would dose themselves with small amounts of arsenic to keep their hair shiny! HTH HAND -- Phil From mnaperrone at aol.com Thu Jul 22 15:49:41 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:49:41 -0000 Subject: Quick question re: Lupin's resignation . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107269 Ally: > > Everyone said Snape let it slip that Lupin was a werewolf, but I > > didn't necessarily read Hagrid's statement like that. He said > > something like "Didn't you hear? Snape told the Slytherins this > > morning. Professor Lupin is a werewolf and was roaming the > grounds > > last night. He's packing now." > > > > That could mean - Snape told the Slytherins Lupin was a werewolf > this > > morning, and now, as a result, Lupin's resigned. > > > > Or it could just mean, Snape told the Slytherins the news that > Lupin > > will no longer be with us, b/c he's a werewolf, I'm surprised it > > hasn't gotten all around the school yet. > > > > Is there some other part that confirms that Snape actually leaked > the > > information, or is it all based on this quote from Hagrid? Mayeaux: > It's quite interesting that we assume that it was Snape that told on > Lupin...But I don't think he did. What would he have to gain? It's > pretty obvious that DD is not going to EVER let him teach DADA and > he didn't get any "recognition" for Lupins' secret being revealed. > Snape is a "true" Slytherin IMO. He's cunning! That would explain > why he decided that instead of 'leaking' the info. about Lupin in > PoA, he would just assign an essay to the class about werewolves. > Of course Hermione, being the 'bright witch' that she is, uncovered > the truth about him as soon as the essay was assigned. Also to > further my point that Snape had relatively nothing to do with > Lupin's resignation, there is the line spoken by Lupin in the PoA > movie "It would seem that *someone* has revealed the nature of > my...condition". We already know that JKR reads over the scripts > and trust Steve Kloves immensely, so I believe that particular line > to be 'telling' (maybe even for books 6&7). Because if not > Snape...then WHO? Hermione surely wouldn't have told anyone. Is > there someone at Hogwarts that we have not yet been introduced to? > Only time will tell... Tooks: Actually, there is. While Harry is recovering from the intial mass > Dementor attack he overhears Snape and Fudge talking to each other. > Snape is describing his version of what occured and comments on how > Harry should be at least suspended for endangering Ron ans Hermione. > Snape goes on to say, "Consider, Minister - againstall school > rules...-out-of-bounds, at night, consorting with a werewolf and a > murderer..." (US version, POA, pg 387). > > Now, if Fudge did not know Lupin was a werewolf, and possibly even if > he did (which plays into the ESE!Fudge theory), he may very well feel > it is responsibility to take it upon himself to reveal to others (ie > students and/or parent's of students) Lupin's "condition" - claiming, > of course, that it is based on safety concerns only. Ally: Yes, that's possible I suppose, but the way Fudge doesn't bat an eyelash at the reference to Lupin being a werewolf made me wonder if that really had anything to do with the resignation. He was more concerned about Black in that scene. I sort of agree with Mayeaux about the reference in POA film - which seems to leave it oddly hanging in the air. Why not reveal to the film audience that Snape was the one who leaked the information, if that was what we were supposed to take from the book? I know we can't take the films as gospel, and maybe JKR was just careless with the way she wrote it and really intended to show that Snape forced Lupin's hand, but I think the way its written leaves it open to interpretation. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 16:09:52 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:09:52 -0000 Subject: Quick question re: Lupin's resignation . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107273 , Magda Grantwich > > wrote: > > > Snape told his Slytherins that Lupin was a werewolf because they > had > > > to know in order to protect themselves if the worst happened - > > again. > > > Werewolves ARE dangerous to others; Lupin never denies it and in > > the > > > Shrieking Shack indicates how much he regrets the risks they ran > > when > > > they were teens running around the community as animagi when he > > > transformed. That's why he takes the Wolfsbane potion. > > > > > > Alla: > > > > > > Oh, werewolves are dangerous to others, but how much chance is > there > > the circumstances of the Shrieking Shack will repeat itself again? > > > > Of course the fact that Lupin humiliated Snape in the Boggart scene > > has nothing to do with dear Severus slipping and the fact that > Sirius > > escaped right under his nose and he was wrong and looked like a > fool, > > has nothing to do with it either. :o) Magda: > > > This is one of those times when we're really hampered by seeing > > > everything through Harry's eyes. > > > > > > > > Now, Lupin is a great guy and one of the most attractive > characters > > > in the series but that doesn't mean he's a saint. He doesn't like > > > Snape and he knows that Snape would have enjoyed "outing" him in > > > front of his own students. So he gets his dig in at Snape by > > > implying that it was Snape's disappointment over losing the Order > of > > > Merlin that precipitated his resignation, rather than his failure > to > > > take the potion in the first place. This also reinforces Harry's > > > growing feeling that Snape can't and shouldn't be trusted - with > > > results that we see in OOTP. > > > > > > > > Alla: > > > > But we DON'T see it from Harry's eyes only. Lupin says it himself. You consider Lupin unreliable too? Maybe if Lupin knows that Snape would have enjoyed outing him, that is exactly what happened? I think Dumbledore was right to let Lupin teach in the first place. I think Lupin's failure to take the potion should have been forgiven due to extraordinary circunstances. I don't think that hiring Lupin was more dangerous than let former DE teach children and in some aspects less dangerous. > > > > Magda: > > > > > Does anyone really think that if Snape hadn't told, that Lupin > would > > > have stayed? Or that Dumbledore would have allowed him to stay? > > > > Alla: > > We cannot exclude that possibility. If Snape was indeed the one who > > said that first, I sincerely doubt that safety of the students was > > his first concern, but that is just me. > > > > Dumbledore may have allowed him to stay. The circumstances under > > which Lupin forgot the potion do not happen too often (I should say > > almost never) > > > > > > Magda: > > > > > As for how Fudge found out: I think it's the same kind of public > > > safety thing. Once Lupin had transformed into a werewolf and was > > > loose in the area, then Dumbledore had no choice but to make the > > > matter known to the authorities. Otherwise he would have been > > guilty > > > of putting the community at risk. > > > > > > > > > Alla: > > > > I just thought of something. Maybe it was Fudge who let it slip? From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 22 16:19:06 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:19:06 -0000 Subject: Percy Weasley and "Donnie Brasco" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107274 "ericoppen" wrote: > Until I hear definitely (as in from Herself herself) that Percy > turned against his family for base reasons, I shall continue to stick > to my own theory about his motivations. I've lost the URL, but I believe she confirms in the "World Book Day 2004" chat that Percy is acting of his own free will. Moron. (Percy, not you :-) HTH HAND -- Phil From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jul 22 16:23:32 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:23:32 -0000 Subject: Quick question re: Lupin's resignation . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107275 Alla(or perhaps Magda): > I think Dumbledore was right to let Lupin teach in the first place. I > think Lupin's failure to take the potion should have been forgiven > due to extraordinary circunstances. I don't think that hiring Lupin > was more dangerous than let former DE teach children and in some > aspects less dangerous. > Potioncat: I used to think that it was inexcusable of Lupin to go off without taking his potion. But by the same token, no one remembers, a few moments later, even after Lupin discusses it and Snape announces it, that Lupin is a werewolf and the moon is full. From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Thu Jul 22 16:28:28 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 22 Jul 2004 16:28:28 -0000 Subject: Quick question re: Lupin's resignation . . . Message-ID: <20040722162828.13474.qmail@webmail7.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107276 - From: Magda Grantwich - Does anyone really think that if Snape hadn't told, that Lupin would - have stayed? Or that Dumbledore would have allowed him to stay? Amey: Snape told all the Slytherins about Lupin?s condition. Lupin gains nothing by implying this thing to Harry if it is not true. There is enough animosity between Snape and Harry that Lupin does not need to increase it further. (Of course, if it is ESE!Lupin, then he can have some alterior motivesin increasing the hate further resulting in occlumency failure in OOtP, like somebody pointed out, but I am not a subscriber to that theory). So I believe we can rule out the fact that Lupin pinned the blame on Snape. As for Snape?s reason for telling students, I don?t think he is being noble or trying to keep children safe. If he was only concerned with the students? safety, he would have tried to convince Dumbledore. There are ways to keep a werewolf away from people as was done while Lupin was a student. So I don?t think he had any noble intentions in *letting it slip*. As for Lupin, I think he was sufficiently affected by the danger he put Harry and others in. So I think he would have taken more precautions at least. I am not sure he would have resigned, but IMO he would have irrespective of students knowing or not. As for Dumbledore?s letting him continue, I doubt Dumbledore would see this one incident as a serious threat to students. He can take Lupin to Shack in time for transformations, and as he has nobody else now to stop the Willow, he would not get out and roam freely. Dumbledore believes in giving all *second chances*. Amey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From greatelderone at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 16:35:16 2004 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:35:16 -0000 Subject: Percy Weasley and "Donnie Brasco" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107277 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Phil Boswell" wrote: > "ericoppen" wrote: > > Until I hear definitely (as in from Herself herself) that Percy > > turned against his family for base reasons, I shall continue to stick > > to my own theory about his motivations. > > I've lost the URL, but I believe she confirms in the "World Book Day > 2004" chat that Percy is acting of his own free will. > > Moron. > > (Percy, not you :-) GEO: Thought I'm not a big fan of this theory, the WBD chat still doesn't invalidate the theory seeing how I don't think Dumbledore or the Order is forcing him to do it. Seems like most of the recruits and the spies for the OOTP are doing it out of their own free will. From entropymail at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 16:54:33 2004 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:54:33 -0000 Subject: Resolving "In Essence Divided" With The Prophecy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107278 Been thinking a lot about the prophecy and what Dumbledore's murmured "in essence divided" might mean. I've come up with something that FINALLY allows the prophecy to make some sense to me. "In essence divided" refers to the state in which both Voldemort and Harry currently find themselve. In "marking" Harry as his equal (by bestowing powers upon him with his failed AK curse), Voldemort may have essentially "divided" himself. We know from Dumbledore that Voldemort had taken many precautions against his own death, and this may have been one of those precautions. That is, if ever he were mortally wounded, some part of his own spirit/being/powers, would be transferred to the most convenient/available wizard so that he, Voldemort, might live on through someone else. On the night at Godric's Hollow, that wizard would have been Harry: a)Half of Voldemort remained a lifeless, non-dead spirit. The other half of Voldemort found and took up residence in Harry, the only wizard still left alive at Godric's Hollow. Voldemort's spirit was divided. b)Similarly, Harry has lived most of his life "hosting" much of Voldemort's spirit; as a half-Harry/half-Voldie being. Of course, he wasn't aware of it at first, but as Voldemort has regained strength and power, so has the other half of Voldemort's spirit currently residing in Harry, and Harry is becoming more and more aware of the evil residing within him. Harry's life has been divided.[/i] There are lots of clues to this beyond Dumbledore's "in essence divided" comment. Don't forget how the centaur referred to someone (Voldemort) who survived by drinking unicorns' blood: as living a half-life. And then there are all of those puzzling references throughout the series to twins, pairs, mates, and such. Where are they leading us? Perhaps they are pointing us to the fact that, as long as we have known them, both Harry and Voldie have been split. Neither Harry nor Voldemort has led a life as a complete being. This would also explain a bit about why Voldemort feels he must kill Harry (to return his being to it's rightful body). Which leads us to my final point: the prophecy (yes, that blasted prophecy) states that "neither can live while the other survives". Clearly, Voldemort cannot live as a whole being while Harry survives, stubbornly holding onto Voldie's other half. Harry, as well, cannot survive as a whole being as long as half of Voldemort takes up half of Harry's mind. Voldemort must kill Harry in order to regain his full spirit. As for Harry, either Harry or Voldie's spirit will ultimately gain control over his mind. Neither of these two competing forces can fully survive while it is at odds with the other. Discuss! :: Entropy :: From melclaros at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 17:03:13 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:03:13 -0000 Subject: Snape a vampire? (was Snape's Patronus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107279 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "happybean98" wrote: > Julie: > > With Snape's physical description (deliberately?) > > evocative of vampires, Mel (who KEEPS telling herself NOT to get involved with this idiotic debate): The ONLY character in these books who has been described as looking like a vampire is Sirius Black. (Mel blanches realizing she's just given proponents of idiotic theory #2 more grist for their mill) > happybean98: > The uncharacteristic vagueness and lack of explanation makes me >think she was pulling a 'Dobby' (when he denied the connection of >Voldemort to the danger Harry was in during CoS.) UNCHARACTARISTIC VAGUENESS? Good lord, what interviews have you been watching/reading? Indirect and vague are JKR's default settings. Mel From melclaros at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 17:07:20 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:07:20 -0000 Subject: Snape a vampire? (was Snape's Patronus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107280 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miller, Gina (JIS)" wrote: > I think the biggest clue for Snape being a Vampire is what James said > to Lily - not an ezact quote, but something like "It's not what he has done, > but more that he exists". > Think about the word "exists". That says to me that Snape has always been > something James considers horrible. He is saying that he despises the fact > Snape is alive. Now, if Snape has not "done" anything to James that tells me > Snape must be something horrible (a vampire maybe). This declaration was made when Snape was 16. He has since aged another 16 years. Funny vampire, that. Or is he taking an ageing potion WITH his daily sunscreen draught? Or perhaps he's STILL 16 and ALSO takes an ageing-illusion potion and that's why he acts so 'snippy'. Perpetual Vampire Puberty, anyone? Mel, eye-rolling. From melclaros at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 17:09:35 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:09:35 -0000 Subject: Who would love Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107281 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Phil Boswell" wrote: > My immediate thought was that he must have been in contact with > arsenic over the long time he has been concocting potions. This > recalled a character in one of Katharine Kerr's Deverry novels who was > an assassin and had become mostly immune to arsenic through taking > small doses but was given away by the hair effect. A while back there was a very interesting thread pointing out that he also shows some symptoms of lead-poisoning, lead being a (formerly, but we are talking the WW here) major ingredient in Pewter. Hogwarts school supply lists specify pewter cauldrons. Mel From brenda-chaisson at rogers.com Thu Jul 22 15:09:57 2004 From: brenda-chaisson at rogers.com (Brenda Chaisson) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:09:57 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape a vampire? (was Snape's Patronus) In-Reply-To: <20040722112500.3366.qmail@web90004.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000001c46ffd$f3ff2450$6500a8c0@MAIN> No: HPFGUIDX 107282 Griffin782002 wrote: I also do not believe that Snape is a vampire. And I belive there is an indication anout that in OotP. In "Snape's worst memory" he is sitting under a tree, after the exam, in broad daylight. Snape is probably a skilled potion maker, but was he in his student years. I do not think that he was that good in his early years, unless of course the potions teacher of his time was helping him. Luckdragon 64 writes: Perhaps Snape's connection to Vampires does not occur until adulthood. If he had been a vampire at school he probably would have bitten the Marauders in retaliation for their behaviour towards him. I would think it more likely he was bitten while working for Voldemort. Possibly having been sent on a mission to enroll the vampire community in Voldemort's efforts. Brenda Lastly, he looks pretty vampirey in this picture, drawn by J.K. Rowling (and pinched from The Severus Snape Fan Club ): J.K. Rowling's drawing of Snape [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sali-ii at lycos.com Thu Jul 22 15:46:48 2004 From: sali-ii at lycos.com (Sali Morris) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:46:48 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Stalagmites & stalagtites? Message-ID: <20040722154648.2515A4F3D8@ws7-6.us4.outblaze.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107283 --- Carol wrote: > > > Since JKR used to be a French teacher, I'm betting that > > [the French] mnemonic was *exactly* what she had in mind! > Then Matt: > Perhaps, though it does not seem the sort of thing one would likely > learn in studying or teaching a language; one would need to have > studied geology in French or heard it repeated by someone who did. Sali: I don't think you need necessarily have studied geology in French to know that. I knew it and haven't (it came up in a French lesson one day). Do any of the French members of the list know whether it's likely to be taught widely or something for more study? Doesn't mean you can't be right about *Hagrid* misremembering the English rule even if *JKR* knows the French one. Wouldn't you say that, when speaking, the difference more obvious been the 'm' and 't' sounds that the 'g' and 'c' sounds? Hagrid always strikes me as being less good on the written side of things. Sali, who thought she'd try for something easy on a first post but has a problem getting a word in edgeways.... -- From ariston3344 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 16:51:49 2004 From: ariston3344 at yahoo.com (ariston3344) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:51:49 -0000 Subject: Snape a vampire? (was Snape's Patronus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107284 Luckdragon wrote: > Actually if I have the right quotation you are referring to JKR > when asked if Snape is a vampire says, "Erm...I don't think so". > This is not a flat out denial! She seems to hedge around a bit > rather than saying "No!" Maybe a direct answer would have given > too much away. ariston: Maybe we can take Jo literally here. In other words, maybe she isn't sure whether Snape is a vampire, although she thinks it unlikely that he will turn out to be one. This could happen if she has been toying with the idea, and is leaning toward discarding it, but hasn't made her mind up yet. Remember the sketch with all the various possible ways of sorting students into houses? Suppose that, a day or two before Jo had finally settled on the Sorting Hat, someone had asked her, "Jo, will the students be sorted by a panel of prefects and heads of houses?" She might have said, "Erm... I don't think so." Of course, she *could* intentionally be hiding something here, too. :-) -ariston From eternal_riddle at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 16:41:25 2004 From: eternal_riddle at yahoo.com (Anastasia) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:41:25 -0000 Subject: Fudge evil or what? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107285 > HunterGreen wrote: Since about my second read of PoA, I've thought that Peter tossed a cheering charm at Sirius right before he cut off his finger, which is why Sirius was standing there laughing. (it just seems so odd that cheering charms are specifically explained earlier in PoA and then never brought up again, almost as though she was writing it that way, but it got written out for some reason). Anastasia: That's a great explanation for the introduction of cheering charms. However, let's think about Sirius when he faced Pettigrew. He had just understood that Peter had been a spy for a *long time*. Wormtail, the weak boy, not outstanding at anything, always lurking near his stronger friends who protected him. Wormtail, someone whom he had never before recognized as a person who was able to cause problems and act entirely on his own. And it was Sirius who gave this git the ultimate opportunity to serve Lord Voldemort. Sirius felt guilty. He thought that he was responsible for his best friend's, his "brother's" James' death. To me, this seems quite maddening. And Sirius was laughing like a madman. > HunterGreen: I realized how odd the dementers act in PoA, as though they are more interested in Harry than they are in Sirius. I keep thinking about how odd it is that the dementers not only attacked Harry at the end of PoA but tried to perform the "kiss" on him, even though Sirius was lying feet away. Anastasia: The dementors seem to be so keen on Harry because he has witnessed a lot more suffering than many others have, especially at his age. You might remember that his emotions are always very strong. This is exactly what the dementors need. Lately, I've been wondering a lot about the way dementors act. They seem to do whatever Fudge or the MoM tell them most of the time, until they go over to LV. Why? Do wizards have a way to control them? I doubt that. The Patronus Charm can drive them away from a place, but it cannot make them do anything else. So they act of their own free will. However, this means that they can disobey orders. That could explain some things. Nevertheless, I cannot understand why no dementors look for the DEs after the mass escape. As HunterGreen pointed out, that may be important. > HunterGreen: I just don't understand how this decision was made to *not* alert the one person that Sirius is after that Sirius escaped. They don't know that Sirius is a dog, yes, but they don't know a lot of things about him either. They think that he knows a great amount of dark magic, and that he's not afraid of doing things in public, and they think he's deranged and the main thing on his mind is to kill Harry Potter. They *also* know that he was James' best friend, and he's very intelligent. Sirius was a *big* threat. Quite an odd moment to be worried about secrecy and protecting Harry's innocence. Anastasia: This story seems quite strange to me, too. Sirius could not only kill Harry, he could do worse things, if he knew dark magic. Imagine Sirius meeting Harry and talking to him. Sirius was James' best friend and best man at his wedding. What if Sirius told Harry that the muggles got something badly wrong, that he was no murderer and just killed some DE, blah blah blah, that he was Harry's guardian, etc. What if Harry recognized him as the man he had seen in a photograph that Hagrid gave him? Wouldn't he trust Sirius? I bet he would. Who knows what Sirius could have made him do if he was evil. At first sight, Fudge clearly seemed to think that Harry was still a child, and that he couldn't cope with the thought that someone wanted to kill him. Harry could have started asking questions about Sirius and find out why Black got into Azkaban. I must confess that this still seems likely to me. Fudge seems to be not unlike Percy, except for his love of power. This would correspond with his *pleading* that LV had not come back. There is a moment when DD looks at him as if he saw him for the first time. That could be because he realizes how power has changed Fudge. What we must not forget is that "The world isn't split into good people and DEs." Fudge has already helped LV a lot with his behaviour during OotP. He should be really discredited by now. That should be the worst punishment for him - losing power and being despised by the ones who once elected him. Anastasia From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Thu Jul 22 17:52:14 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:52:14 -0000 Subject: Grease (was Who would love) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107286 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Phil Boswell" wrote: > My immediate thought was that he must have been in contact with > arsenic over the long time he has been concocting potions. "K": Can't say that I agree with the idea working around potins would cause the grease business. Why then the same look as a teenager? ~A greasy-haired teenager sat alone in a dark bedroom, pointing his wand at the ceiling, shooting down flies... oop/ch 26/pg 592/us ~His hair was lank and greasy and was flopping onto the table... (O.W.L. exams) oop/ch 28/pg 641/us From jferer at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 17:59:11 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:59:11 -0000 Subject: Snape a vampire? (was Snape's Patronus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107287 > ariston: > Maybe we can take Jo literally here. In other words, maybe she > isn't sure whether Snape is a vampire, although she thinks it > unlikely that he will turn out to be one. This could happen if she > has been toying with the idea, and is leaning toward discarding it, > but hasn't made her mind up yet. > Of course, she *could* intentionally be hiding something here, > too. :-) Or, since vampires are described in chapter 10 of GoF as " ***non-wizard*** part-humans," maybe she is not. Actually, she doesn't deliberately mislead people this way. She just doesn't tell us. Why is it important that Snape be a vampire? He's much more interesting the way he is. Jim Ferer From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Thu Jul 22 18:20:45 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:20:45 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape a vampire? (was Snape's Patronus) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107288 Mel, This declaration was made when Snape was 16. He has since aged another 16 years. Funny vampire, that. Or is he taking an ageing potion WITH his daily sunscreen draught? Or perhaps he's STILL 16 and ALSO takes an ageing-illusion potion and that's why he acts so 'snippy'. Perpetual Vampire Puberty, anyone? Mel, eye-rolling. Gina: Sorry, but what on Earth does his age have to do with anything I said in my post? I do not recall hearing about a permanent cure for being a vampire, so it does not take a lot of thought to realize that once a vamp - always a vamp (even if disguised well). It is obvious that there is something weird about Snape and it is pretty funny that JKR has not told what his patronous is or what type of animagus he would be. She usually only leaves out things that are important or at least revealing. It would make sense with H & R always blaming Snape for something that Hermione would keep it quiet if she knew and she never said who was registered. * Gina - who sees know reason for eye rolling and wonders if not a vampire what he is... . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ariston3344 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 17:24:47 2004 From: ariston3344 at yahoo.com (ariston3344) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:24:47 -0000 Subject: Narrative strategy and Harry's death In-Reply-To: <20040722111928.94599.qmail@web25108.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107290 I (ariston) wrote: > If Harry is able to come back to life after death, then that does > more or less render the POV question moot. But I'm pretty sure > that JKR has gone on record saying that a fundamental limitation > in the Potterverse is that magic can't bring people back from > the dead. Hans replied: > Yes I knew about Jo's statement there. However I see this as a > paradox rather than a statement that makes Harry's return from > Hades impossible. [...] ariston again: Hans, you could be right, but this isn't the "feel" I get from the HP books. For one thing, it's pretty rare for JKR to go on record so dogmatically about something (especially something she decided up front), and I'm not sure she would have done that if she was planning death and resurrection (in any form) for Harry. For another, I think Jo is going out of her way to make the sacrifices and pains in her books be very real. My feeling is that she doesn't want us to despair, but she doesn't want there to be light at the end of the tunnel in the ordinary sense, either. If Harry sacrifices himself in the end (and I suspect he will), then I think he's Not Coming Back. He will "have gone on", as Nearly Headless Nick says. I don't know much about the Alchemical Wedding, but the idea of "going on" after death fits in very well with another known influence on JKR, namely C.S. Lewis (not only in the Chronicles of Narnia, but also in _The Great Divorce_). Put another way, I think that Harry is a Christ figure only up to a point; in most ways he remains an ordinary, and very mortal, human being. But again, of course, there's a lot of speculation here, and you could well be right! -aristion From brenda-chaisson at rogers.com Thu Jul 22 17:29:17 2004 From: brenda-chaisson at rogers.com (Brenda) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:29:17 -0000 Subject: Snape a vampire? (was Snape's Patronus) In-Reply-To: <000001c46ffd$f3ff2450$6500a8c0@MAIN> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107291 Luckdragon 64 wrote: > Lastly, he looks pretty vampirey in this picture, drawn by J.K. Rowling (and > pinched from The Severus Snape Fan Club > ): > J.K. Rowling's drawing of Snape Luckdragon64 writes: The site listed above is incorrect. To view JKR's sketch of Snape please go to >http://piratemonkeysinc.com/snapetheories.htm< Brenda From brenda-chaisson at rogers.com Thu Jul 22 18:12:59 2004 From: brenda-chaisson at rogers.com (Brenda) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:12:59 -0000 Subject: Snape a vampire? (was Snape's Patronus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107292 Jim Ferer: > Why is it important that Snape be a vampire? He's much more > interesting the way he is. Luckdragon64 writes: It is not so much that it is important that Snape be a vampire. He is just such a controverserial character with so many still as yet unexplained behaviours. I think most readers have a love-hate relationship with Snape. We all want to think that underneath it all he is really good; but is he? Until JKR reveals more about Snape we can only make assumptions based on his appearance and actions which in my opinion are very vampirish. I recently reread an interview with JKR where she tells her readers not to like Snape too much and that he needs watching. She also states that Dumbledore does not allow Snape to teach dark arts because it would bring out the worst in him. Lastly why wouldn't Rowling include a vampire character in her story. She has witches, wizards, trolls, giants, werewolves, goblins, elves, centaurs etc. It would be strange to entirely rule out the inclusion of a vampire. Brenda From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 22 19:17:34 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:17:34 -0000 Subject: Something wrong with this Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107293 meltowne wrote: >>> I've been thinking abou our friend from the ministry, Cornelius Fudge. I can't quite decide what to make of him, but I know there's something odd that JKR has been hinting at all along. 1 - He was the first on the scene when Wormtail disappeared. 2 - The night that Bertha Jorkins found out about Barty Crouch Jr, wasn't Crouch Sr, having dinner with the Fudges? 3 - Fudge got the Minister job when it appeared that Crouch had a bad apple in his family. Was Barty really responsible for torturing the Longbottoms? Why did Fudge have the dementors kiss him so quickly? I think Barty Jr knew something about Fudge that he wanted kept hidden. 4 - in PoA, Crouch wants to make sure Harry stays in Diagon Alley. (5) - What if Fudge was with Wormtail & LV at Godrics Hollow? Fudge gives Wormtail advice to "disappear for a while" and to fake his own death. (6) - Fudge clearly holds some of the same beliefs as the death eaters,regarding muggles and half-bloods.<<< HunterGreen: >> You know, I think so too. Evidence for an ESE!Fudge is ridiculously easy to put together. We all just accept that he's only out to get Dumbledore in OotP because he's afraid of Dumbledore -- that is of Dumbledore trying to take his job -- even though Dumbledore has NEVER shown any interest in it. AND its just accepted that he doesn't think that Voldemort is back, when at the end of GoF, he couldn't (decently) retort to Dumbledore when Dumbledore said "I am working against Voldemort, if you are too, we are on the same side." (paraphrased). But suddenly in OotP he's gung-ho to get Harry expelled, get Dumbledore discredited, and take over Hogwarts...why? (I know the reasons the book gives, they just seem a little weak). It just reminds me of the fact that Voldemort never dared attack Hogwarts during his first rise to power, with Umbridge there it would have been mighty easy... << Matt added: > I'm not so sure about Fudge as evil; I see him more as the > quintessential bureaucrat, who values process (or the appearance > thereof), preservation of the status quo, and above all retaining > his position of authority, while discounting principles and > anything that makes his job more difficult than it needs to be. SSSusan now: Hmmmm. All those things you've said, Matt, do seem to perfectly describe Fudge. On the other hand, does anybody else think it's just possible that JKR might be *deliberately* getting us to focus on "misguided, bumbling, quintessential bureaucrat Fudge" so that we don't seriously consider the possibility of his being ESE! and "behind it all"?? Do you know what I mean? Someone might suggest Fudge is ESE! and then others counter with, "No, I don't think he's ESE! He's just misguided, short-sighted, insecure in his position, afraid DD will take his job, blah blah blah." And then that's the end of the discussion. It seems to me that one could rebut that rebuttal by pointing out the things Meltowne did. It's not the *surfacey* arguments w/ DD and his refusal to believe Harry and his waffling (fudging) on which episodes of underage magic count or don't that really matter or make him ESE!. It's those behind-the-scenes situations where Fudge was in position to have orchestrated some of the key episodes which make him a candidate for ESE!Fudge: allowing Barty, Jr. to be kissed before testifying; Sirius' apparently-not-all-that-difficult escape from Azkaban; the Dementors' seeming *focus* on Harry over anyone else; his placement of Umbridge at Hogwarts; the possibility that he could have worked w/ Pettigrew in some way, either at GH or in the aftermath. All these really did occur in canon or at least can be supported with canon. Maybe Fudge isn't ESE! for the reasons often put forth [power- hungry MoM in at least partial alignment w/ DE goals & values] but because he's truly orchestrated all these things all along, from behind the scenes, to help Voldy return. Just some rambling thoughts, I know, but I'd love to hear from others on this. Siriusly Snapey Susan From mkeller01 at alltel.net Thu Jul 22 19:25:51 2004 From: mkeller01 at alltel.net (jksunflower2002) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:25:51 -0000 Subject: Ginny and the entrancing Veil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107294 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rowansjet" wrote: > In the scene where we are introduced to the Veil in the Department > of Mysteries(pg. 682, OotP UK edition), there are several points > where the author notes that some people are 'mesmerised' by the > veil, and can hear whispering voices. Hermione and Ron are > unaffected and seem particularly worried about it, while Harry and > Luna can both hear voices and are atracted too it. > > However, I was most intrigued by this quote (pg 683, OotP uk > edition): > > "...Ginny and Neville were staring, apparently entranced, at the > veil too." > > What interests me about this quote is that Ginny is affected. First, > the room the Veil is located in is most probably the Death Chamber > that Dumbledore mentions later on, based on where the Death Eaters > are being held. > > Now we know that Harry, Luna and Neville have seen someone die, by > the fact that they can see the Thestrals, but Ginny has not, because > she cannot see the thestrals. So we have to rule out the fact that > the Veil works in a similair way to Thestrals. Of course, based on > JKR's response to why Harry couldn't see the Thestrals at the end of > GoF, Ginny may not REMEMBER seeing someone die, due to an obliviate > spell, so it isn't sunken in, but she could have experienced/seen > death at some point. However this idea is too similair to the ideas > that Neville's forgetfulness is related to an Obliviate spell when > he could just have poor memory for some things. > > A member of a Harry Potter Forum I visited, though I cannot remember > where or who, postulated that it was because of her near death > experience at the hands of Tom Riddle. I am unconvinced as it is a > very different cause than the others have for the attraction to the > veil but it is a possibility. > > Neither of these two ideas particularly appeal to me so hopefully, > JKR will come up with a better explanation at some point, either in > interviews or in the books, preferably the books, because that means > it has some importance. Of course that doen't stop us from coming up > with more ideas about the books > > Rowan Sjet(posting for the first time on HP4GU) Sorry to be morbid, but perhaps the veil effects people who have been *enticed* by the idea of dying. Wanting to end their suffering. Harry--well, his suffering is quite obvious. Neville-- insane parents, growing up with Gram and perhaps low self esteem. Luna--the death of her Mum. Ginny--during the whole Riddle experience. Just tossin' it out there. Toad From jelly92784 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 19:44:46 2004 From: jelly92784 at yahoo.com (jelly92784) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:44:46 -0000 Subject: JKR's narrative strategy (Was: Whose point of view ?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107295 > Del wrote : > I am not a lit major, but I know enough about writing to answer anyway. > > It's an author's privilege to decide who is going to tell the story. > It can be the author herself, one of the characters, or a narrator > that has nothing to do with the story. > > Think of it as a commentator at a football game : he's not one of the > players, but he's not God either. He's not involved in the match, but > he doesn't know anything about what is going to happen. Moreover, he > can only watch one thing at a time, so if he decided to concentrate on > only one player throughout the whole game, we would know only what > that player did and what the other players who are interacting with > him did. Coming from a current lit major, I really like your analogy, the only thing that is slightly different is that the commentator does not have the ability to read the players' minds whereas the narrator can at times, this is of course where the limited omniscience thing comes in which decides which characters' minds he can read and when, it is JKR's role to determine what the narrator sees. The narrator is not a character in this case, just a story-teller. Janelle From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Thu Jul 22 21:11:40 2004 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:11:40 -0000 Subject: Something wrong with this Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107296 meltowne wrote: >>> I've been thinking about our friend from the >>> ministry, Cornelius Fudge. I can't quite decide >>> what to make of him, but I know there's something >>> odd that JKR has been hinting at all along. >>> [various insinuations about possible behind-the- >>> scenes involvement by Fudge in misdeeds] HunterGreen specifically tagged Fudge as evil I wrote: >> I'm not so sure about Fudge as evil; I see him more >> as the quintessential bureaucrat, who values process >> (or the appearance thereof), preservation of the >> status quo, and above all retaining his position of >> authority, while discounting principles and anything >> that makes his job more difficult than it needs to be. Siriusly Snapey Susan replied: > Hmmmm. All those things you've said, Matt, do seem > to perfectly describe Fudge. On the other hand, does > anybody else think it's just possible that JKR might be > *deliberately* getting us to focus on "misguided, > bumbling, quintessential bureaucrat Fudge" so that we > don't seriously consider the possibility of his being ESE! > and "behind it all"?? Susan, I agree that it's a possibility, but I don't think it's a very strong one. Rowling has spent a lot of time in the books making the point that many things in life cannot be neatly outlined in black and white ("the world isn't split into good people and Death Eaters"). There are downright evil people like Voldemort and Bella who enjoy causing others pain and suffering; there are mercenaries like Pettigrew who are not evilly inclined per se but will do anything in exchange for personal gain or security; there are people who appear to spend all their time looking out for the good of others (Dumbledore, Molly). But most of Rowling's characters are more complex and fallible in their motivations and their psychological makeup -- Snape, Sirius, Mundungus, James, Hagrid, the Trio themselves, even Petunia. I think that Fudge falls into the latter category. He is not an admirable character, certainly; not someone that you would want to trust; but he is not consciously serving Voldemort, either. He is one of those, perhaps, whose loyalties lie in the balance, who need to be brought over to the side of the right and good. If Rowling chose to reveal him as capital-E Evil, she would be doing more than surprising her readers; she would also be undermining one of the major themes that she has developed through the novels to date. -- Matt From patientx3 at aol.com Thu Jul 22 21:20:23 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:20:23 -0000 Subject: Quick question re: Lupin's resignation . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107297 Ally wrote(on the subject of whether Snape was the one who told on Lupin being a werewolf): >> I sort of agree with Mayeaux about the reference in POA film - which seems to leave it oddly hanging in the air. Why not reveal to the film audience that Snape was the one who leaked the information, if that was what we were supposed to take from the book? I know we can't take the films as gospel, and maybe JKR was just careless with the way she wrote it and really intended to show that Snape forced Lupin's hand, but I think the way its written leaves it open to interpretation. << HunterGreen: In this case I think we have to completely disregard the movie version. Movie!Snape had no motive to tell on Lupin, since the reference to the prank, and him nearly getting the order of Merlin and being so enraged about Black escaping were all deleted, it wouldn't make much sense if its STATED that he's the one who told. It was less complicated to say 'someone' let it slip rather than 'Snape', since those of us who read the books can fill in the blanks, and the ones who didn't don't have to. I don't see any reason to not take Hagrid's statement that Snape told on Lupin at face value. He was extremely angry, and on top of that Lupin had NOT taken his potion like he was supposed to and had TRANSFORMED and nearly killed 6 people (those being Snape, Sirius, Peter, and the trio). I don't really blame Snape in this situation, it was probably understood, or specifically stated, when Lupin began teaching that it was under the condition that he'd take the potion every month so that he didn't endanger anyone. And, whatever the circumstances, that didn't happen. He proved that he wasn't able to keep himself safe, so it was better he leave. If he forgot once, who's to say he wouldn't forget again? From erinellii at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 21:37:20 2004 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (Erin) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:37:20 -0000 Subject: Oh, the People Snape Knows... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107298 I was thinking the other day about Snape and how he relates to others. ::pauses and and reflects how much she appreciates having a group she can say this to without people looking at her like she's crazy:: Anyway, as I was mentally going through Snape's interactions with those around him, something became undeniably clear to me. Severus Snape doesn't have *any* insignificant relationships. None at all. In fact, throughout five books, there's not a single scene where he speaks to Hagrid, or Sprout, or Flitwick, or Binns, or Pomfrey. Or even about them. OK, so the man doesn't fancy inane small talk. I'm cool with that. But wait just a minute; if he doesn't talk about the inane stuff, that means all his talk must be... ane? Relevant, at any rate. I sensed a new theory taking shape.... And yes, to my delight, the hypothesis held true. Snape's conversations and confrontations in each book hold the clue to the ultimate resolution of the mystery within that book. It's not so much what he says, as who he says it to. Other than his students, Snape doesn't even bother speaking to non-suspicious characters. Nearly every single conversation he has is with someone who either *is* a Death Eater or a traitor to Dumbledore, or who is *suspected* of being a Death Eater or a traitor to Dumbledore. Let me break it down by book so you'll have a better idea of what I'm talking about here. This is a list of the people Snape has had key exchanges with. PS/SS: Argus Filch Quirrell CoS: Gilderoy Lockhart PoA: Remus Lupin Sirius Black GoF: Moody aka Barty Crouch Jr. Argus Filch Cornelius Fudge Igor Karkaroff OotP: Umbridge And to these, I would add a few others; Snape's recurring relationships, as I think of them. These are the people whom Snape is shown interacting with in more than one or two books: Dumbledore McGonagall Harry Potter Draco Malfoy Neville Longbottom So. Hopefully you're starting to understand what I'm getting at here. But I'll expand a bit further just in case. PS/SS: In the first book, Snape is extremely prevalent as the trio mistakes him for the villain of the piece. He has two major relationships; Quirrell, the Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher, and Filch, the caretaker of the school. Quirrell: Quirrell, of course, turned out to be the villain hosting Voldemort. The trio think Snape is bullying Quirrell in order to get the secret to the Philosopher's Stone, but at the end find out Snape had suspected that Quirrell was helping Voldemort, and was literally asking Quirrell to decide where his loyalties lay. Argus Filch: Snape hangs out with more with Filch in this book than any other. When his knee is injured at Halloween, it's Filch he goes to for the fix-up. When Harry sneaks into the library's restricted section at night, Filch runs to Snape and they hunt for Harry together. Before OotP, spotting the pattern of Snape's relationships wouldn't have been possible solely because of Filch. But in OotP, Filch shows his true colors. He hates Dumbledore, loves Umbridge, and would be willing to turn the school over to anyone who would let him punish the students as harshly as he so desperately longs to do. Reason enough for him to be a suspicious character and for Snape's interest in him. Also in the first book, Snape sets the tone in his treatment of Harry Potter and Draco Malfoy, coddling the latter and getting off to a bad start with the former. In CoS: Gilderoy Lockhart: He wasn't exactly the main villain, and Snape's utter contempt of him reflects that. But he did prove capable of breaking the law, and erasing the memory of students-- 12-year-olds!-- entrusted to his care, as well as memory-wiping countless others in his quest to become famous. Also in the second book, Snape cements his place as Dumbledore's trusted lieutenant. Any time there's trouble, he and Minerva McGonagall are right behind the headmaster. PoA: Remus Lupin: A werewolf! The man suspected by the Potters of being Voldemort's spy when they went into hiding And guilty of withholding information from Dumbledore which could have helped recapture Sirius Black. Even though he turned out to be a good guy, it's easy to see why Snape was suspicious of him. Sirius Black: An escaped criminal convicted of murdering the Potters. And with whom Snape just coincidentally has a history. GoF: The central mystery of Goblet of Fire is, of course, 'Who put Harry's name in the Goblet?'. Throughout the book, JKR tried to distract us by using red herrings and decoys. And she did a darn good job of it, too. There are *still* people running around the fandom arguing that Ludo Bagman is a Death Eater. But I know he isn't. *Because Snape never talked to him.* Now, this book is where we should have begun to catch on to Snape's special function in the text, namely, that if he speaks to someone, that someone is an important or suspicious character. Think of the suspects JKR set up when Harry's name was drawn from the Goblet. Ludo Bagman, a shady character with a mysterious penchant for helping Harry. Mr. Crouch, with all his unexplained absences. Madame Maxime, a half-giantess. Igor Karkaroff, headmaster of a school known for teaching the Dark Arts. And Snape himself, who hates Harry. Excepting himself, Snape speaks only to one of these: Karkaroff, who turns out to have been a former Death Eater. Veeeery suspicious. And he also speaks to the one person we didn't suspect. Moody, a.k.a. Barty Crouch Jr. Harry and co. never had much luck figuring out who was responsible for dropping Harry's name in the Goblet, but Snape zeroed right in on him (though unknowingly). Also in the fourth book Snape speaks to Cornelius Fudge (the Minister of Magic, an important person who becomes suspicious when he refuses to acknowledge Voldemort's return) and continues his tradition of late-night rendezvous with Argus Filch. OotP: In Order of the Phoenix, Snape argues with Sirius Black (now revealed as the lone heir of an extremely Dark wizarding family) He pretends to cooperate with Delores Umbridge (who set the dementors on Harry and Dudley) And he spends time coaching Harry, who ultimately makes the mistake of falling into Voldemort's trap. **************** I know I haven't said all of this very well; I'm so excited about it that I'm sort of rushing into posting. I plan to refine it a lot more based on the feedback that I hope it will get. But I will say this; if you want to know what's going on the very first time you read the sixth book, all you have to do is watch Snape. --Erin This message has also been cross-posted at The Hog's Head: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hogs_Head/ for the benefit of those who prefer a smaller and more intimate group of adult fans who are knowledgeable about Harry Potter. From patientx3 at aol.com Thu Jul 22 21:40:23 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:40:23 -0000 Subject: Something wrong with this Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107299 Matt wrote: >> If Rowling chose to reveal him as capital-E Evil, she would be doing more than surprising her readers; she would also be undermining one of the major themes that she has developed through the novels to date. << HunterGreen: Why exactly? Forget about his actions in OotP for a moment, focus just PoA and GoF, what about then? I disagree with an argument based not on the books and the character's development and more on the *outside* influences. Fudge's character *greatly* points to him being the type of person who would be sympathisizing with Voldemort's aim. As you pointed out, the world is not separated into good people and death eaters. Umbridge is a good example of that. However, just because he agrees with Voldemort's aim, doesn't mean that Fudge is a death eater, or that he's *directly* working for him. You spoke of shades of gray in the HP universe, and that's exactly what Fudge is, a shade of gray. He can still be everything we see on the surface: bumbling, nervous, in love with power, and still have other motivations that we don't see. They are clues from the books supporting that, where are the *clues* (not rhetoric) that go against it? From patientx3 at aol.com Thu Jul 22 22:09:45 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:09:45 -0000 Subject: Fudge evil or what? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107300 HunterGreen previously: >>> I realized how odd the dementers act in PoA, as though they are more interested in Harry than they are in Sirius. I keep thinking about how odd it is that the dementers not only attacked Harry at the end of PoA but tried to perform the "kiss" on him, even though Sirius was lying feet away. <<< Anastasia: >> The dementors seem to be so keen on Harry because he has witnessed a lot more suffering than many others have, especially at his age. You might remember that his emotions are always very strong. This is exactly what the dementors need. << HunterGreen: Harry does have strong emotions, but not always. He's usually rather good at containing them (unlike, say, Sirius who keeps his right at the surface). In the beginning of PoA, Harry is passed out, yet the dementor doesn't leave until Lupin *forces* it too. I can't imagine it could be getting any emotions from Harry then. Then at the quidditch match there are *hundreds* of people there, yet *all* the dementors seem to be focusing specifically on Harry. And his emotions were rather calm, compared to the screaming fans below. He was remaining rather concentrated at that moment. Maybe at the side of the lake they were interested in Harry simply because he was the only one consious, but its very strange they would go after him when the one they've been given *permission* to kiss was lying feet away. Also, I got the feeling that dementors like *happy* memories, and Harry doesn't exactly have as many of those as other people. He has more *sad* memories, but the dementors don't feed on those, those are what's *left* after they take the happy ones. Therefore in a train compartment or a quidditch match, you'd think they'd be more interested in someone else. Just because Harry is the most affected by them, doesn't mean they're getting the best "meal" out of him. Anastasia (in response to Fudge not telling Harry that Sirius was after him): >> This story seems quite strange to me, too. Sirius could not only kill Harry, he could do worse things, if he knew dark magic. [snip] At first sight, Fudge clearly seemed to think that Harry was still a child, and that he couldn't cope with the thought that someone wanted to kill him. << HunterGreen: I just don't see that emotion coming from Fudge. It would be alright if the situation weren't *so* dire, or if some effort was made to remove Harry from the Dursely's and take him somewhere (like the Weasly's) where someone could keep an eye on him. Yes he was protected while in the house at the Dursley's, but that's *while he's in the house*. Its summer, he's a thirteen-year-old boy, there's no reason to assume he's going to spend all his time indoors. Fudge doesn't necessarily *have* to be evil in this situation, but I like that explanation better than all the adults around Harry suddenly getting very short-sighted and stupid. Anastasia: >> Harry could have started asking questions about Sirius and find out why Black got into Azkaban. I must confess that this still seems likely to me. << HunterGreen: What questions are you referring to? There's a public explanation for why Black got into Azkaban, I don't see why Harry would press for a better one. And even if he did, and found out about the secret-keeper thing and that James and Sirius were best friends, him struggling with that knowledge is certainly better than him being dead, isn't it? Anastasia: >> What we must not forget is that "The world isn't split into good people and DEs." Fudge has already helped LV a lot with his behaviour during OotP. << HunterGreen: I haven't forgot that at all. But some people *are* working for Voldemort. From everything we've heard about Voldemort's previous reign of terror was that *a lot* of people were working for him. Fudge, with his love of power, and his allegiances (and private meetings) with Lucius Malfoy, and his preference for pure-blood, seems like a very likely canidate. If they didn't get him to at least sympathize with their cause, that's some pretty lazy recruiting from the Death Eaters. From erinellii at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 22:30:39 2004 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (Erin) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:30:39 -0000 Subject: OT members ages-- please no one respond here. In-Reply-To: <20040722221948.86323.qmail@web25310.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107302 "Miller, Gina wrote: > I thought when I signed in for this group the age was 21+ is that true? I would be curious to know how old our members are just to see the ranges we have on this one list. Gina, you could have found this out by reading the group's Admin File (which you are supposed to read before posting) at: http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin This is what it has to say on the subject "Our members are a diverse group of individuals who love in-depth, thought-provoking and fun discussions of the Harry Potter books (and the movies, merchandising and other aspects of the HP phenomenon). Most of our members are over 18. Mature teenagers may enjoy the group, but we cannot, for legal reasons, accept members under the age of 13." For future Off Topic messages, you might try the HPfGU OT-Chatter group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-OTChatter/ --Erin From anmsmom333 at cox.net Thu Jul 22 22:42:09 2004 From: anmsmom333 at cox.net (Theresa) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:42:09 -0000 Subject: Possibly OT members ages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107303 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miller, Gina (JIS)" wrote: > I thought when I signed in for this group the age was 21+ is that true? I > would be curious to know how old our members are just to see the ranges we > have on this one list. > > Gina A. Miller > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] There is actually an active poll in the Polls section that asks this question. If you take it, you can see the results. By the way there are 913 members who have taken the poll and answered that they are 21 or younger. Anyway, that will give you an idea of the ranges of everyone who has answered the poll and it is interesting most of the folks fall between 18 and 25 with the next group being from 30-34. So anyway, click on Polls and check it out. I find the polls really interesting. Theresa From jferer at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 23:10:29 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:10:29 -0000 Subject: Snape a vampire? (was Snape's Patronus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107304 Brenda: "I think most readers have a love-hate relationship with Snape. We all want to think that underneath it all he is really good; but is he?" This is what makes Snape fascinating ? we all agree he's a nasty so-and-so, but he seems to be on the right side. He seems to do his duty to the Good Side ? mostly. We saw for the first time in OoP Snape fail to do his duty when he stops teaching Harry Occlumency. It's interesting that the reason for it is Snape having one of his old memories outed to Harry. Will we encounter another of Snape's bitter memories at just the wrong time in the future? I'd bet on it. I hypothesized before, recently in message 107200, that Snape is a social phobic. His life trajectory is very consistent with that; JKR says there's something sad and lonely about him. It's rejection; that's where the rage comes from. Those who speculate Snape hopelessly adored Lily have the right end of the stick, even if it turns out it was someone else or all females together. Brenda: "Until JKR reveals more about Snape we can only make assumptions based on his appearance and actions which in my opinion are very vampirish." We don't know much about vampires in JKR's world, but in parallel literature they aren't necessarily greasy and filled with anger. (or not so, either). The fact Bela Lugosi used lots of hair pomade is neither here nor there. Aren't many vampires in literature highly attractive to women? (I never read Anne Rice) Let me just say it: I think the "evidence" pointed to in Snape as vampire theories is wishful at best, and there are many indications against it, all of which have to be explained away. Brenda: " I recently reread an interview with JKR where she tells her readers not to like Snape too much and that he needs watching. She also states that Dumbledore does not allow Snape to teach dark arts because it would bring out the worst in him." You never can tell when Snape's demons will get the better of him. (See Pensieve scene) Talk about a "man on the edge," Snape's it. As for the DADA job, Dumbledore may trust Snape, but would you give a recovering alcoholic a job as a bartender? Dumbledore's right. Brenda: "Lastly why wouldn't Rowling include a vampire character in her story. She has witches, wizards, trolls, giants, werewolves, goblins, elves, centaurs etc. It would be strange to entirely rule out the inclusion of a vampire." There's no reason for her not to include a vampire if she wants to, but there's no reason ought to include one, either. Do stories have to have representation from every group? How about hags? Jim Ferer From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Jul 22 23:39:02 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:39:02 -0000 Subject: Snape a vampire? (was Snape's Patronus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107305 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: > Or, since vampires are described in chapter 10 of GoF as " ***non-wizard*** part-humans," maybe she is not. Actually, she doesn't deliberately mislead people this way. She just doesn't tell us.< Why is it important that Snape be a vampire? He's much more interesting the way he is. < Pippin: It seems that JKR wants us to understand that, like Kreacher, every part-human is "a being with feelings as acute as a human's." So what is it about Snape that would become less interesting if he were a vampire? As for "non-wizard" that would, I take it, mean "not legally allowed to use a wand," which would provide an excellent reason for Snape to disguise his vampire-nature, if he has one. Pippin From ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 00:05:23 2004 From: ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com (ohneill_2001) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 00:05:23 -0000 Subject: Voldemort and the Prophesy --OOP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107307 ariston wrote: > Quite right! And he might have been able to use it as bait for even > longer if he had just had someone in the Order tell Harry even a > little of what was going on! At a minimum, "Hey, Harry, I think > Occlumency's a good idea because Voldy might try to trick you into > going to the DoM. Don't go without orders from the Order." > > Just venting. :) Now Cory: This is very true, and is only one of several reasons why it was a mistake for Dumbledore not to tell Harry what was going on. Having said that, I am still curious to see how (or whether) Dumbledore will use Voldemort's ignorance of the prophecy against him in books 6 & 7. I can envision a scenario where DD somehow (through Snape?) feeds Voldemort some bad information about what the prophecy says, as a means of keeping him under wraps for a while longer. --Cory From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 23 00:10:10 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 00:10:10 -0000 Subject: Doesn't Voldemort know about Snape's loyalty? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107308 Angie wonders, too: > > Excellent question, I think. Voldemort wouldn't have to know > > anything about the Order to know that Snape was trying to > > prevent Quirrell from getting the Stone, which would mean he was > > working against Voldemort. Potioncat: > But LV did not reveal himself to anyone. Quirrell hadn't been a > DE, he had been "recruited" more recently. If Snape suspected > something, he most likely made it appear that he wanted the stone > for himself. I doubt that between Snape and Quirrell the LV-DD > situation even came up. SSSusan: Yes, I think Potioncat is right. Whatever Snape knew or suspected, really, he could have just been attempting to stop some evil *individual* wizard who wanted to attain immortal life. Since Voldy hadn't been seen or heard from for 12 years, Snape could **easily** plead "How could I have known??" if he'd been confronted by Voldy later. Siriusly Snapey Susan From chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 00:24:02 2004 From: chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com (chrisnlorrie) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 00:24:02 -0000 Subject: Dementors and communication Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107309 I'm sorry if this has been discussed before, but how does Fudge/Umbridge communicate with the Dementors? I've no doubt that if I tried to do it, I would pass out myself. How do they manage it, I wonder? Any theories? For that matter, how would you tell two dementors, "I want you to go to Little Whinging and attack Harry Potter" ? I also ponder the question of whether or not Mundungus was set up so that Harry was left to defend himself when Mundungus was gone on h is "business opportunity". If that's the case, someone knows MF is in league with DD - that would make MF a liability. Just sitting here pondering... Alora :) From mz_annethrope at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 08:26:47 2004 From: mz_annethrope at yahoo.com (mz_annethrope) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 08:26:47 -0000 Subject: Quick question re: Lupin's resignation . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107310 Alla: > Nah, I still think that dear Severus executed his revenge over poor > Remus. Bad, Bad Snape! Left Remus without any possibility to earn a > living. (Hey, Pippin! :o) > > > Although, when I reread Hagrid's quote, I am inclined to agree with > Ava - it could be read that Snape told Slytherins that Lupin is > resigning because he is a werewolf (after somebody else already > slipped it) > > > But, please, please convince me who that "anonymous person" can be. mz_annethrope here: I don't think you'll find evidence in the book pointing to anyone except for Snape. Here's the quotes, p 422 PoA, American Ed. Hagrid is speaking to Harry who has been searching for Lupin: "Blimey, haven't you heard?" said Hagrid, his smile fading a little. He lowered his voice, even though there was nobody in sight. "Er-- Snape told all the Slytherins this mornin'....Thought everyone'd know by now...Professor Lupin's a werewolf, see. An' he was loose on the grounds las' night....He's packin' now, o' course." On page 423, in response to Lupin acknowledging he had resigned, Harry asks Lupin if the MoM thought Lupin was helping Sirius. Lupin responds: "No. Professor Dumbledore managed to convince Fudge that I was trying to save your lives." He sighed. "That was the final straw for Severus. I think the loss of the Order of Merlin hit him hard. So he- -er--accidently let slip that I am a werewolf this morning at breakfast." Two people accuse Snape. One might rejoinder that they're telling only half truths, but on what grounds other than that the movie is different? I think the book is clear; the movie is ambiguous. If my memory is correct, in the movie it's unclear whether any faculty but Dumbledore and Snape know Lupin is a werewolf. In the book (p. 346) all the faculty know. In the book Lupin is leaving because he's a werewolf; in the movie he says something to the effect that parents wouldn't want "people like me" teaching. I was left wondering if he's ashamed of saying the word "werewolf." Or is the omission of the word "werewolf" a subtle suggestion that he might be something else that people are prejudiced against--say gay? Didn't movie Snape liken Sirius and Lupin to an old married couple? But that's the movie and not the book. mz_annethrope From mz_annethrope at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 11:45:22 2004 From: mz_annethrope at yahoo.com (mz_annethrope) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:45:22 -0000 Subject: Incomplete Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107311 -- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "esmith222002" > wrote: > > It appears to me that Dumbledore did not allow Harry to hear the > > whole prophecy. > > Angie agrees: > > Looks that way to me, too. I know we are reading what Dumbledore > heard Trewlawny say, but the purpose of ellipses is to indicate > something has been omitted. Further, if you read the prophecy, as > is, how can it be useful to Voldemort, Harry, or anyone? It doesn't > tell Voldemort how to defeat Harry or vice versa. > > And while I'm at it, I'd love to know who it was that overheard the > prophecy and spilled it to Voldemort. Dumbledore refers to the > person as "he" and states that because "he" only heard the first part > of the prophecy, "he" could not inform "his master" about > transferring Voldemort's powers. mz_annethrope has another idea: The prophecy in PoA also uses ellipses: "TONIGHT...BEFORE MIDNIGHT...THE SERVANT...WILL SET OUT..." and so on. I don't think there's meant to be any omissions here. Ellipses can also be used to indicate faltering speech, or so my Chicago Manual of Style indicates. I think something like that is happening here, but instead of faltering speech we get big dramatic pauses. Four dots probably indicates the end of a sentence. I, for one, have always favored Snape as the one who overheard part of the prophecy. I have no idea why, just intuition I suppose. Or maybe it's because I think he smelled a rat--without knowing it was Peter--and informed Dumbledore. It seems to balance, but I haven't a shred of evidence for it. A lot of other people here seem to favor that notion as well and they probably have better explanations. I just read Steve's comment about why the prophecy might be useful and I thought it credible. It's number 107237. mz_annethrope From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 23 00:35:41 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 00:35:41 -0000 Subject: When Harry met Sally (was: Re: Incomplete Prophecy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107312 Kneasy wrote: > *If* Voldy is TR + SS and *if* transfer occurred at Godric's > Hollow, then part of the Voldy essence in Harry is Salazar > Slytherin - QED. > Harry has powers transferred from Voldy: he'd be wise not to use > them. Get into that habit and who knows where it'll all end. > > It'll probably boil down to one of DD's choices eventually. SSSusan: Whoa. Unless there's sarcasm in that thar final sentence, methinks I detect a change of attitude w/in Kneasy? Could it be that you believe Harry *will* have choice in the end? I thought I remember your belief that Harry really *hasn't* had choice--that DD [and perhaps circumstance?] has been controlling so much that Harry hasn't been allowed a true choice of his own. [I don't agree, but I thought that's what I remembered of your view.] Okay, wait. There's two ways to take "DD's choices." EITHER "DD's choices," as in something DD's fond of reminding us are our ultimate power, OR "DD's choices," as in they're HIS and HE is the one doing the choosing. So is that precisely your point--that it'll come down to one more DD string-pull and not a true choice for Harry? Or will this one finally be Harry's for real? Or was it a throw-away phrase and I wasn't supposed to read so much into it? ;-) Siriusly Snapey Susan From cattatra at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 22 14:09:04 2004 From: cattatra at yahoo.co.uk (cattatra) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:09:04 -0000 Subject: "Prince" in HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107313 Has anyone concidered that the 'prince' could be a female, and everyone thinks their looking for a male so she's safe(ish)? Like, Voldemort says 'look, I'm looking for this half-blood prince, get out chop chop to find him' when he actually should be, or secretly is, looking for a woman/girl, and he's doing it to test his DE's or something? Cattatra, museing on the possibility and it's repercusions. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "doddiemoemoe" wrote: > Angel wrote: > > When everyone is guessing which boy/man the "Half Blood Prince" is > > referring, my question is - how come a prince emerges? > > > > As far as we know, wizarding world is ruled by Ministry of Magic. > > There're no king, queen, prince or princess. So what kind of > prince > > is this character? How should we understand the term "prince"? > Should > > we take it literally as a boy born to a royal family or what > exactly > > does it mean? > > > > I have been thinking along the exact same lines... > > My conclusions(or thoughts thereof--because, really, whose > conclusions have ever been..well, conclusive.): > > 1. HBP may well be Grindewald (he who DD dfeated and is an accolade > on the back of chocolate frog trading card.. What with moody's > missing leg and various body parts I could well write an essay > on "Why Harry's scar is in the same spot as the 'little girl who was > horrid'(for those who do not know, she has a little curl in the > middle of her forehead--teehee)"... > > a. this may well be why "Tom Riddle" in COS is simply not killing > Mudbloods. He gives no explanation other than he is desires to kill > Harry....all can save the geneology pool theory until they can prove > Ms. Norris transfigures, or that she is something other than a kitty. > (sheesh why shouldn't Tom not save us all a heptology and commit > suicide there and then?!??) I suppose it would be beneficial to > at least note that he was "hi-jacking" the life force of GINNY--a > pure blood who, at that time, given the crush she has on Harry, has > no anti-mudblood ideology in her brainpain... > > Since Tom Riddle is not simply ordering the Basilisk to kill > only "mudbloods"(does one simply get that he wants Hogwarts closed > down?) I tend to think that: > > b. Lucious MAY have done some handy spell work on the diary, hence > he has his own agenda, not simply Voldemort's plans.(just > think...Lucious is EXACTLY the type of person to let some 'other' do > the "dirty" work(maybe even Harry?)..If there is one thing we can > garner from Lucious and his precious son it is that the Malfoys are > better because there is no other wizard line that is as "clean" as > theirs.) > > 2. HBP may also be DD at the very least, he is a champion of half- > bloods; and what "champion" have we ever denied at least an honorary > title of "prince" to...(isn't it like a prince to say "all those who > are loyal etc....") > > 3. I do not believe HBP can be Godric Griffyndor, Hela Hufflepuff, > or Rowena Ravenclaw, nor Salzar Slytheryn....any past prince in > their realm would have opened their OWN school(hence the > establishment of Hogwarts....and if any were stronger than the > others..they simply would have had their own univerisites (Beaubetans > and Durmstrang......not simply their own primary and secondary > schools. > > At this time, I simply cannot think of anyone JKR has given enough > background on that may be the HBP.. > > However, it is such a long time until we see book six though. *heavy > sigh* From cincimaelder at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 14:05:22 2004 From: cincimaelder at yahoo.com (cincimaelder) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:05:22 -0000 Subject: Books 6 & 7 - tragedy or triumph? ( Warning LotR spoiler) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107314 Hans wrote: > > But the point of all this is: to be able to deliver the bombshell > >there's going to have to be some pretty earth-shattering things > >happening at the end. There are going to have to be deaths and > >shocking events. Only then will the story have any impact on a > >humanity bogged down in doubt and despair. However I feel sure, as > >does Jen Reese, that there will be no gratuitous violence. I don't necessarily agree that there needs to be deaths either, at least not for Harry, Hermione and Ron. Look at the Lord of the Rings, which is geared towards an older audience. There were no deaths for any of the lead characters; The ones who perished in battle were more minor characters except Boromir, who had a terrible human flaw that was his undoing. It did end with the (going through the curtain/going off on the ship), that others have sited in HP, but this was an uplifting event. I don't know that JKR would want to repeat the end of LotR, she seems to be very creative and original. MAE From eleanor at dreamvine.org.uk Thu Jul 22 08:50:10 2004 From: eleanor at dreamvine.org.uk (iamvine) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 08:50:10 -0000 Subject: An etymology for Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107315 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "theadimail" wrote: > Hi all, > I don't know whether anybody has suggested this elsewhere, because > I do not keep up with the etymology lists on the net, but the > etymology for Kreacher seems to me this. Kreacher, seems to be merely > a different spelling for the word 'creature'. Since Kreacher is > supposed to be what he is because of the (can we call it that?)racial > discrimination shown towards him by the other wizards. > Well, 'creature' seems to be the word that is used when you do not > look upon others as well as yourself, when this class of being is > upposed to be somehow lower than yours. When you hate somebody for > belonging to a certain class, they become 'creatures', don't they? All true. To me it's also reminiscent of the Addams Family, unless I'm getting mixed up. They live in a similarly spooky, magic-filled house, and I thought they had a Creature, but I just looked it up, and instead they have Thing, the disembodied hand. It's the same kind of name, though, and can also imply discrimination. Anyway, I'd almost expect to find a sinister Creature in a house like that. Eleanor From erica at mindspring.com Thu Jul 22 15:20:15 2004 From: erica at mindspring.com (Erica Sadun) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 09:20:15 -0600 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 23: Christmas On The Closed Ward In-Reply-To: <1090508321.15567.16304.m23@yahoogroups.com> References: <1090508321.15567.16304.m23@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107316 > > ariston finally decides to plunk down two knuts: >> >> >> I guess I'm kind of raining on the parade here, but I actually don't >> think this takes away from Alice's gifts to Neville being deeply >> touching. In the limited way that she's still capable of, Alice is >> expressing love. But when I pause to think just *how* limited that >> is -- that Alice has been reduced to THIS -- that there might not be >> any significance to the gum wrappers at all, that perhaps for all >> Alice knows she's giving Neville pocket fluff or something deadly or >> a million galleons -- then I feel the pathos of the situation, and >> the utter horror of what the DEs did to her and Frank, much more >> strongly. Azkaban was better, really, than those four DEs deserved. >> -ariston > This is one of my favorite scenes of the whole series. As Ariston states, the significance of the gum wrappers is their insignificance. In OotP, Neville grows so much as a character. Between his clumsy successes in the DA, the assault on the MoM, the revelation of the details of prophecy, and the St Mungo's scene, Neville grows in ways that Harry does not. By the end of OotP, Neville has become a hero; not a Harry Potter deus-ex- machina-always-on-call hero, but a very flawed, very human hero whose actions rise above his situation. -- Erica, fond of OotP's new Luna and Umbridge characters From scraft at dustshield.com Thu Jul 22 13:51:58 2004 From: scraft at dustshield.com (scott_craft_2000) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:51:58 -0000 Subject: Snape and the DADA job Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107317 The only time anybody outside of H/R/Hr that says anything about Snape wanting the DADA job is Percy in the PS/SS, so maybe the reason he does not have the job is because he does not want it. Any suggestions? "scott_craft_2000" From amanda_carter82484 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 14:55:43 2004 From: amanda_carter82484 at yahoo.com (amanda_carter82484) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:55:43 -0000 Subject: Maybe Snape is a Vampire Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107318 Has Snape ever gone outside Hogwarts during the day?? I know he has at night, but what about during the day .....Cause vampires die if they're in the sun. Amanda From dolis5657 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 19:19:53 2004 From: dolis5657 at yahoo.com (dcgmck) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:19:53 -0000 Subject: Resolving "In Essence Divided" With The Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107319 "entropymail" wrote: [major snip, sorry; good stuff that] > Clearly, Voldemort cannot live as a whole being while Harry survives, stubbornly holding onto Voldie's other half. Harry, as well, cannot survive as a whole being as long as half of Voldemort takes up half of Harry's mind. Voldemort must kill Harry in order to regain his full spirit. As for Harry, either Harry or Voldie's spirit will ultimately gain control over his mind. Neither of these two competing forces can fully survive while it is at odds with the other. < dcgmck: At the risk of being reductive or simplistic, your theory puts me in mind of the McCoy/Spock quandary in the Star Trek II & III movies. Still, I like how it plays. This understanding works with the train of thought that JKR will find a way for Harry to resolve his dilemma without stooping to killing, the false dichotomy he was last entertaining in the midst of a full-blown attack of puberty. Your suggestion also works better for me than the messianic train of thought that Harry might die, descend into hell or pass through the Veil of Death in order to duel Voldemort, then triumphantly return from the dead. JKR has just spent too many volumes avoiding any reference to Christianity, even annually passing through Christmas break without any reference to its origins. The thought that she might end up with such a familiar resolution is too implausible to entertain. I can't believe she'd string the world along for six volumes, only to end so weakly as to take someone else's ending for her own. That said, the similarities between your (Entropy's) thoughts and the Star Trek storyline might be seen that way as well. No, if you're right, she'll find a more creative, or at least different resolution. From lorelei3dg at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 19:23:29 2004 From: lorelei3dg at yahoo.com (lorelei3dg) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:23:29 -0000 Subject: Percy Weasley and "Donnie Brasco" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107320 > "ericoppen" wrote: > > Until I hear definitely (as in from Herself herself) that Percy > > turned against his family for base reasons, I shall continue to > > stick to my own theory about his motivations. Phil wrote: > I've lost the URL, but I believe she confirms in the "World Book Day > 2004" chat that Percy is acting of his own free will. Lorel writes: Percy acting of his own free does not preclude undercover work; he could have chosen to take on the job without having been forced/tricked/enchanted to do so. (For my part, I'm afraid he's just being a "moron," to borrow the term (thanks, Phil!), but I hope otherwise and greatly enjoy this speculation.) From dolis5657 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 20:16:25 2004 From: dolis5657 at yahoo.com (dcgmck) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 20:16:25 -0000 Subject: An etymology for Kreacher + House Elves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107321 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "theadimail" Adi wrote: > Hi all, > [snip] Kreacher, seems to be merely a different spelling for the word 'creature'. Since Kreacher is supposed to be what he is because of the (can we call it that?)racial discrimination shown towards him by the other wizards. > Well, 'creature' seems to be the word that is used when you do not > look upon others as well as yourself, when this class of being is > upposed to be somehow lower than yours. When you hate somebody for > belonging to a certain class, they become 'creatures', don't they? dcgmck writes: That fits nicely with JKR's ongoing concerns with social inequality and her use of various house elves to reflect the different reactions and attitudes of ethnic, cultural, and racial minorities to the idea that they are of a lower or lesser class and therefore somehow less worthy than others. Your observation of Kreacher as a creature also matches the science fiction and horror films of the 1950s and 1960s, which film critics have posited as being the film metaphor for social outcasts and underdogs. Such creatures as the Swamp Thing, the Hulk, Frankenstein, et al are viewed with horror, loathing, fear, and occasionally pity. Come to think of it, pretty much the way Snape remembers Lily Evans treating him... House elves as a group are the servant class, scarcely a step below those of muggle families, who are scarcely a step below those of mixed blood, who are arguably below those of pure blood in the hierarchy that oppresses the minds of inherited privilege. The Malfoys are obvious gauges of such prejudices, but they simply reflect for us in shorthand what so many people in and out of books feel in real life. Hagrid is treated with scorn, circumspect only allowed for his size and evident physical strength. To them he is a large, dumb brute, another kind of creature not akin to themselves. House elves, being smaller, are clearly more abusable, like buggy creatures underfoot. Aragog is sacrificed to protect the basilisk. Dobby is Lucius' personal hackysack. And yet these beings who represent social lessers that are seen as creatures are not without culpability in the perceptions that have arisen around and about them: - Dobby is obsequiously subservient and can't do enough to please. He's always bobbing/dobbing around Harry, an elven Creavey. - Kreacher is similarly obsequious, though he can't do enough to displease the last reprobate offspring of his beloved mistress. He is reminiscent of those minorities who cling to the old order, even at the expense of their own opportunities. They are "institutionalized", as Red says in "Shawshank Redemption", victims of the plantation mentality, as social critics say of those content with the old social hierarchy. - Winky is admittedly maudlin, though when she was in service to the Crouch family, she was fiercely loyal. Now she longs for the 'good old days' of her enslavement, like women who resent that feminists have thrust them out of the kitchens and homes and into the hard, cold, callous working world where money rules instead of love of labor. Still, the Hogwarts kitchen elves as a group perhaps best reflect the fact that while many people are content with their lots in life, even content to serve, they can be roused to anger by those who think they know better, who think they know what's good for "others", which is as much an insult as anything Sirius ever says or does to Kreacher. At least Sirius is open and honest about his negligence. Hermione thinks she knows better and doesn't see the problem with that, despite Winky's tears and the kitchen elves' ire. Kreacher's a creature? Sure. But that's not always the bad thing we might think or the only name we put on "others". From jlawlor at gmail.com Thu Jul 22 20:29:41 2004 From: jlawlor at gmail.com (James Lawlor) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:29:41 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Still wondering why Snape trusts DD! (was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96773c880407221329757dc0ef@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107322 > Alla: > > Good point, Carolina. I also tend to think that Voldemort knows about > Snape being an Occlumenc. He has to. If nothing else, Voldie would > have learned about it when he would try to read Snape's mind and > could not. That is one of the reasons why i don't believe that Snape > does direct spying. On the other hand if he spied on Lucius mind by > using his legilimenc abilities, that I see as more porbable version > of the events. James: "The Dark Lord, for instance, almost always knows when somebody is lying to him. Only those skilled at Occlumency are able to shut down those feeling and memories that contradict the lie, and so utter falsehoods in his presence without detection" - OotP pg 531 US Edition I serously doubt that Snape would be alive if he was utterly blocking Voldemort from his mind. Voldemort would know something was up and stop trusting Snape. From what Snape said I gather that a highly skilled Occlumens like himself would be able to close only the parts of his mind that would betray him, while allowing Voldemort access to the rest - so Voldemort has no idea that something is being hidden from him. A moderately skilled Occlumens (perhaps Dumbledore, or maybe Harry with some training) would be able to close their mind to Voldemort entirely, which would be good in case of capture and interrogation or Harry's mind-link with Voldemort, but not for subterfuge. - James Lawlor jlawlor at gmail.com From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 23 01:08:15 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 01:08:15 -0000 Subject: Something wrong with this Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107323 Matt wrote: >> If Rowling chose to reveal him as capital-E Evil, she would be doing more than surprising her readers; she would also be undermining one of the major themes that she has developed through the novels to date. << HunterGreen: > Why exactly? Forget about his actions in OotP for a moment, focus > just PoA and GoF, what about then? I disagree with an argument based > not on the books and the character's development and more on the > *outside* influences. Fudge's character *greatly* points to him being > the type of person who would be sympathisizing with Voldemort's aim. > As you pointed out, the world is not separated into good people and > death eaters. Umbridge is a good example of that. However, just > because he agrees with Voldemort's aim, doesn't mean that Fudge is a > death eater, or that he's *directly* working for him. > > You spoke of shades of gray in the HP universe, and that's exactly > what Fudge is, a shade of gray. He can still be everything we see on > the surface: bumbling, nervous, in love with power, and still have > other motivations that we don't see. They are clues from the books > supporting that, where are the *clues* (not rhetoric) that go against > it? SSSusan: I absolutely, totally agree w/ Huntergreen here. I think Umbridge is the perfect example of what Sirius said--it's not just good guys & DEs. Umbridge can remain one of the non-capital-E evil ones...and Fudge COULD be shown as truly capital-E evil without ruining JKR's point. Huntergreen is right: if he's ESE!Fudge, it doesn't negate the *other* negative stuff--bumbling, weak, prejudiced; it merely adds another dimension to him. I don't see that the argument for ESE!Fudge is weak at all. Siriusly Snapey Susan From jlawlor at gmail.com Thu Jul 22 20:51:07 2004 From: jlawlor at gmail.com (James Lawlor) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:51:07 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 23: Christmas On The Closed Ward In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96773c8804072213512722c66f@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107324 Carol: >Gran, being stern and practical, doesn't understand, > but at least she takes him to see his parents and is proud rather than > ashamed of her son and daughter-in-law. James: Is Gran Fank's mother or Alice's mother? I can't seem to remember where (or if) this was actually mentioned, if someone would be so kind as to give me a quote. For some reason I had always assumed that Alice was her daughter. - James Lawlor jlawlor at gmail.com From brenda-chaisson at rogers.com Fri Jul 23 01:13:16 2004 From: brenda-chaisson at rogers.com (Brenda) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 01:13:16 -0000 Subject: Maybe Snape is a Vampire In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107325 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amanda_carter82484" wrote: > Has Snape ever gone outside Hogwarts during the day?? I know he > has at night, but what about during the day .....Cause vampires die if > they're in the sun. Yes! Snape does go outdoors in daylight on several occasions; however if you research the matter you will find that the vampire + sunlight= no more vampire story is a myth which was only started when movies and books about vampires became popular. Brenda From tookishgirl_111 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 22:39:21 2004 From: tookishgirl_111 at yahoo.com (tookishgirl_111) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:39:21 -0000 Subject: Quick question re: Lupin's resignation . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107326 "huntergreen_3" wrote: > HunterGreen: > I don't really blame Snape in this situation, it was probably > understood, or specifically stated, when Lupin began teaching > that it was under the condition that he'd take the potion every > month so that he didn't endanger anyone. And, whatever the > circumstances, that didn't happen. He proved that he wasn't able to > keep himself safe, so it was better he leave. If he forgot once, > who's to say he wouldn't forget again? Concerning Lupin's tranformation, no I don't blame Snape, nor do I blame Lupin. Concerning Snape's "outing" of Lupin, I don't believe it had anything to do with other's safety...well, maybe on a basic level, but I think it had more to do with revenge upon Lupin (and possibly Harry). I agree that Lupin was most likely hired under the condition that he remember to take his monthly potion - something I have little doubt he completely agreed with - and that if he did not and became a risk then he would have to be let go. However, I disagree that what occured that night in the Shrieking Shack would ever happen again. The circumstances under which Lupin forgot to take his potion (the only tim ehe forgot that year) were extreme - he was concerned for the children's safety and most likely highly confused to see Wormtail on the map. I think his resignation may have occured even if snape hadn't let his "condition" slip. I get the feeling that no one was more ashamed and horrified that he forgot his potion than Lupin himself. Snape's 'outing" just made the fact that Lupin had to resign an official decree. Tooks - Avid Lupin fan...in case you couldn't tell ;) From gelite67 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 22:46:56 2004 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:46:56 -0000 Subject: Voldemort and the Prophesy --OOP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107327 > > Angie wrote: > > I guess I'm dense, but I don't see how gaining access to the > > prophecy would help Voldemort. How would it be a weapon? > Asian_lovr2: > Ahhh... but you only say that because you know what the Prophecy > says, Voldemort does not. Angie replies: Good food for thought. But I thought that Voldemort thought he had heard the entire prophecy. When did he find out that there was more than he had originally heard? And wasn't it member(s) of the Order who referred to the prophecy as a weapon? Are we to assume that DD is the only person besides Trelawney who knows the entire prophecy? From gelite67 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 23:03:39 2004 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:03:39 -0000 Subject: Ginny and the entrancing Veil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107328 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rowansjet" > wrote: > > In the scene where we are introduced to the Veil in the Department > > of Mysteries(pg. 682, OotP UK edition), there are several points > > where the author notes that some people are 'mesmerised' by the > > veil, and can hear whispering voices. Hermione and Ron are > > unaffected and seem particularly worried about it, while Harry and > > Luna can both hear voices and are atracted too it. > > > > However, I was most intrigued by this quote (pg 683, OotP uk > > edition): > > > > "...Ginny and Neville were staring, apparently entranced, at the > > veil too." > > > > What interests me about this quote is that Ginny is affected. [snip] > > A member of a Harry Potter Forum I visited, though I cannot > remember > > where or who, postulated that it was because of her near death > > experience at the hands of Tom Riddle. Angie replies: How wierd! I was just reading that last night and I wondered the same thing. There must be something about Ginny that we don't know about. Maybe we should take a step back from her-near death experience and first ask why did Lucius Malfoy choose her to give the diary to? I know Dumbledore suggests it was an attempt to discredit her father, as the author of the Anti-Muggle Protection Act (or whatever it was called), but how did Mr. Malfoy know it would work with Ginny? Ginny must be receptive to those otherwordly vibes and we don't yet know why. From gelite67 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 22:58:19 2004 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:58:19 -0000 Subject: Doesn't Voldemort know about Snape's loyalty? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107329 Potioncat: > But LV did not reveal himself to anyone. Quirrell hadn't been a DE, > he had been "recruited" more recently. If Snape suspected > something, he most likely made it appear that he wanted the stone > for himself. I doubt that between Snape and Quirrell the LV-DD > situation even came up. Angie (still wondering): Does this beg the question of why LV didn't try to use Snape to get the Stone if Snape was working for LV? I know according to DD Snape is trustworthy, but I've read different theories about Snape working as a double agent, etc. Just a thought. Guess that would have made for a one-book series, wouldn't it? From xtremesk8ergurl2 at aol.com Thu Jul 22 22:51:36 2004 From: xtremesk8ergurl2 at aol.com (xtremesk8ergurl2 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:51:36 EDT Subject: Grease(was who would love) Message-ID: <97.4acc75e3.2e319ef8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107330 "K" wrote: > Can't say that I agree with the idea working around potions would cause the grease business. Why then the same look as a teenager? ~A greasy-haired teenager sat alone in a dark bedroom, pointing his wand at the ceiling, shooting down flies... oop/ch 26/pg 592/us ~His hair was lank and greasy and was flopping onto the table... (O.W.L. exams) oop/ch 28/pg 641/us < Maybe Snape is just one of those people who has greasy hair and oily skin (oily skin was never mentioned AFAIK). Or at least that's the way I always took it. Kind of like one of those people who showers, but just always looks greasy. The other possibility is that he's an animagus (which you guys discussed), or maybe he has some form of depression which would contribute to his nastiness and his appearance (severely depressed people will often go days without bathing). I still think Snape is really a good person deep down because he does seem to protect HP. I just think he's either social phobic or depressed because how he was abused a lot as a kid/teen. -xtremesk8ergurl2 From gelite67 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 22:53:51 2004 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:53:51 -0000 Subject: Voldemort and the Prophesy---OOP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107331 > mhbobbin: > 3. The weapon that is discussed in OOP isn't really the Prophecy > but Harry himself. The Order would like LV to believe the Prophecy > is THE weapon. In typical JKR fashion, Harry overhears bits and pieces > about THE weapon. The Order is busy with guard duty on the weapon. > Later, we learn that Harry has been tailed by the Order while > visiting Hogsmeade. Which was THE weapon--Harry or the Prophecy > orb? Angie replies: I like the way you think! I'm not even sure if the Order really knows what's going on. I'm not convinced that DD has revealed the entire prophecy to anyone. And I don't see how LV intends to use Harry as a weapon when he tries to kill him on sight. How much longer until Book 6????? Arrgh! From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 01:38:16 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 01:38:16 -0000 Subject: Incomplete Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107332 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mz_annethrope" wrote: > -- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "esmith222002" > > wrote: > > > It appears to me that Dumbledore did not allow Harry to hear the > > > whole prophecy. > > > > Angie agrees: > > > > Looks that way to me, too. I know we are reading what Dumbledore > > heard Trewlawny say, but the purpose of ellipses is to indicate > > something has been omitted. ...edited... > > > > mz_annethrope has another idea: > > The prophecy in PoA also uses ellipses: "TONIGHT...BEFORE > MIDNIGHT...THE SERVANT...WILL SET OUT..." and so on. I don't think > there's meant to be any omissions here. Ellipses can also be used to > indicate faltering speech, or so my Chicago Manual of Style > indicates. I think something like that is happening here, but > instead of faltering speech we get big dramatic pauses. Four dots > probably indicates the end of a sentence. > Asian_lovr2: Thanks, I've been waiting for someone to finally bring this up. The 'dots' do indeed represent pauses in speech. And as you also pointed out, a fouth 'dot' is a 'full stop' at the end of a sentence. When antiquated constructs of style fall short of the needs of modern writing, we have to adapt what we have to fit what we need, and the ellipsis as a pause is one of those adaptations. You will notice that JKR also uses what I call the 'double-dash' or '?' (as opposed to '-' which is shorter) for dramatic pauses. In some cases she creates pauses using both in the same sentence. I'm not use what the correct name is for the 'double-dash' or what it's standard application in Style is. > mz_annethrope continues: > > I, for one, have always favored Snape as the one who overheard part > of the prophecy. I have no idea why, just intuition I suppose. Or > maybe it's because I think he smelled a rat--without knowing it was > Peter--and informed Dumbledore. It seems to balance, but I haven't a > shred of evidence for it. A lot of other people here seem to favor > that notion as well and they probably have better explanations. > > I just read Steve's comment about why the prophecy might be useful > and I thought it credible. It's number 107237. > > > mz_annethrope Asain_lovr2: I've always assumed the character overhearing the Prophecy was a character of no significants. However, if it was Snape, this could have been his turning point. At the time he overheard, no one knew who the Prophecy-person was. It could be that Snape reported the information, then later discovered that it was the son of Lily Evans?Potter. We were shown Lily defending Snape in 'Snape's Worst Memory' scene, and we could speculate that that was not the only time. Despite his outward animosity, inwardly Snape might have greatly appreciated Lily defending him like that; a very selfless and considerate act. When Snape finds out that Voldemort intends to kill Lily's son, Snape, out of appreciation, may have gone to Dumbledore to try and protect Lily and Harry. Having said that, I'm not sure if I can extend it to Snape's unrequited love for Lily. I've never been a big fan of that theory. But, none the less, that doesn't stop Snape from having a deep liking for Lily and a great appreciation for her consideration and compassion toward him. I have more thoughts on the matter, but don't want to let this post get too long. Steve/asian_lovr2 From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 23:01:16 2004 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:01:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Quick question re: Lupin's resignation . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040722230116.86377.qmail@web50107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107333 HunterGreen: > I don't see any reason to not take Hagrid's statement that Snape > told on Lupin at face value. Maybe I'm missing the point here but surely that is not in doubt? I thought the question was: was Snape telling the Slytherins at breakfast the cause of Lupin's resignation (that is, he wouldn't have had to if Snape hadn't said anything) or something that happened at the same time as Lupin resigned because he felt it was the honourable thing to do because he hadn't taken his potion? I believe it was the latter situation. Magda From brenda-chaisson at rogers.com Fri Jul 23 01:15:09 2004 From: brenda-chaisson at rogers.com (Brenda) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 01:15:09 -0000 Subject: Snape and the DADA job In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107334 "scott_craft_2000" wrote: > The only time anybody outside of H/R/Hr that says anything about > Snape wanting the DADA job is Percy in the PS/SS, so maybe the > reason he does not have the job is because he does not want it. > Any suggestions? JKR reinforces the idea during an interview when she discusses why Dumbledore will not allow Snape to teach dark arts. Brenda From dolis5657 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 01:39:57 2004 From: dolis5657 at yahoo.com (dcgmck) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 01:39:57 -0000 Subject: Ginny and the entrancing Veil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107335 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rowansjet" > > wrote: > > > However, I was most intrigued by this quote (pg 683, OotP uk > > > edition): > > > > > > "...Ginny and Neville were staring, apparently entranced, at the > > > veil too." > > > > > > What interests me about this quote is that Ginny is affected. > [snip] > > > > A member of a Harry Potter Forum I visited, though I cannot > > remember > > > where or who, postulated that it was because of her near death > > > experience at the hands of Tom Riddle. dcgmck: Hypothesis: Ginny's possession by the young Tom Riddle might well have tainted her psyche if not her conscious memory with Riddle's witnessing of Moaning Myrtle's death. Do you think he actually witnessed MM's death or just instigated it by setting the basilisk loose? Again, lacking canonical evidence one way or the other... From sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 01:41:59 2004 From: sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com (sevenhundredandthirteen) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 01:41:59 -0000 Subject: Snape and the DADA job In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107336 scott_craft_2000 wrote: > The only time anybody outside of H/R/Hr that says anything about > Snape wanting the DADA job is Percy in the PS/SS, so maybe the reason > he does not have the job is because he does not want it. Any > suggestions? I (Laursia) reply: Actually, that's incorrect. Snape wants to be DADA professor. Snape admits he first applied for the DADA teacher position, and has *continued* to apply for it regularly since being at Hogwarts during his inspection from the Hogwarts High Inquisitor herself, Dolores Jane Umbridge. It's in OotP, Chapter 17 (mine, page 323) if you want to reread it for yourself. ~<(Laurasia)>~ From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 01:44:13 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 01:44:13 -0000 Subject: Voldemort and the Prophesy --OOP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107337 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ohneill_2001" wrote: > ariston wrote: > > > Quite right! And he might have been able to use it as bait for > > even longer if he had just had someone in the Order tell Harry > > even a little of what was going on! At a minimum, "Hey, Harry, I > > think Occlumency's a good idea because Voldy might try to trick > > you into going to the DoM. Don't go without orders from the > > Order." > > > > Just venting. :) > Now Cory: > > This is very true, and is only one of several reasons why it was a > mistake for Dumbledore not to tell Harry what was going on. > > Having said that, I am still curious to see how (or whether) > Dumbledore will use Voldemort's ignorance of the prophecy against > him in books 6 & 7. I can envision a scenario where DD somehow > (through Snape?) feeds Voldemort some bad information about what the > prophecy says, as a means of keeping him under wraps for a while > longer. > > --Cory Asian_lovr2: Any thoughts on how this might work? Voldemort's primary interest in the Prophecy is to find out Harry strength and weaknesses, so he can plan his attack against Harry. What could anyone say in that respect that would cause him to remain underground? Any information, would be likely to be used in planning an attack on Harry. So, any speculation on what information could be given that would lead to such a complex plan that it would take Voldemort month to impliment it. Not doubting you, just wondering if you had any specific ideas. Steve/asian_lovr2 From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 20:33:07 2004 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:33:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Something wrong with this Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040722203307.53897.qmail@web50109.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107338 meltowne wrote: > 1 - He was the first on the scene when Wormtail disappeared. No, he was "one of the first" on the scene, according to POA. Magda From tinainfay at msn.com Fri Jul 23 01:42:14 2004 From: tinainfay at msn.com (mrs_sonofgib) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 01:42:14 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 23: Christmas On The Closed Ward In-Reply-To: <96773c8804072213512722c66f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107339 James: > Is Gran Fank's mother or Alice's mother? I can't seem to remember > where (or if) this was actually mentioned, if someone would be so kind > as to give me a quote. For some reason I had always assumed that Alice > was her daughter. In the Am HB p 514 it says: "'My son and his wife,' she (Mrs. Longbottom) said, turning haughtily to Harry, Ron, Hermione, and Ginny, 'were tortured into insanity by You-Know-Who's followers.'" That should clear up the confusion. ~tina From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 23 02:01:14 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 02:01:14 -0000 Subject: Snape and the DADA job In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107340 scott_craft_2000 wrote: > > The only time anybody outside of H/R/Hr that says anything about > > Snape wanting the DADA job is Percy in the PS/SS, so maybe the > reason > > he does not have the job is because he does not want it. Any > > suggestions? Laursia replied: > Actually, that's incorrect. Snape wants to be DADA professor. > > Snape admits he first applied for the DADA teacher position, and has > *continued* to apply for it regularly since being at Hogwarts during > his inspection from the Hogwarts High Inquisitor herself, Dolores > Jane Umbridge. SSSusan: Ah, but is there necessarily a *want* in that statement? Some have speculated that Snape "applies" and DD "denies" as part of a continued ruse of making Snape appear Nicely Dark Artsy to the DEs and DE kids at Hogwarts. Do we know for a FACT that Snape WANTS the job? I'm not totally convinced. Siriusly Snapey Susan From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 02:02:53 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 02:02:53 -0000 Subject: Snape and the DADA job In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107341 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brenda" wrote: > "scott_craft_2000" wrote: > > The only time anybody outside of H/R/Hr that says anything about > > Snape wanting the DADA job is Percy in the PS/SS, so maybe the > > reason he does not have the job is because he does not want it. > > Any suggestions? > JKR reinforces the idea during an interview when she discusses why > Dumbledore will not allow Snape to teach dark arts. > > Brenda Asain_lovr2: I think we have a little more than that to go on- --- OotP Am Ed HB pg 363-364 --- 'Now_ how long have you been teaching at Hogwarts?' she asked, her quill poised over her clipboard. 'Fourteen years,' Snape replied. His expression was unfathomable. Harry, watching him closely, added a few drops to his potion; it hissed menacingly and turned from turquoise to orange. 'You applied first for the Defence Against the Dark Arts post, I believe?' Professor Umbridge asked Snape. 'Yes,' said Snape quietly. 'But you were unsuccessful?' Snape's lip curled.'Obviously' Professor Umbridge scribbled on her clipboard. 'And you have applied regularly for the Defence Against the Dark Arts post since you first joined the school, I believe?' 'Yes,' said Snape quietly, barely moving his lips. He looked very angry. 'Do you have any idea why Dumbledore has consistently refused to appoint you?' asked Umbridge. 'I suggest you ask him,' said Snape jerkily. .? - - - End Quote - - - According to this, Snape first applied for and was refused the position, and since then has /regularly/ applied for and been consistently refused the position of DADA teacher. I don't think that leaves much room for interpretation. I think the only remaining question is, how does Snape feel about being /consistently refused/ the job. Just a thought. Steve/asian_lovr2 From Batchevra at aol.com Fri Jul 23 02:15:00 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:15:00 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Resolving "In Essence Divided" With The Prophecy Message-ID: <7e.53e7bcf4.2e31cea4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107342 In a message dated 7/22/04 12:58:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, entropymail at yahoo.com writes: >b)Similarly, Harry has lived most of his life "hosting" much of Voldemort's spirit; as a half-Harry/half-Voldie being. Of course, he wasn't aware of it at first, but as Voldemort has regained strength and power, so has the other half of Voldemort's spirit currently residing in Harry, and Harry is becoming more and more aware of the evil residing within him. Harry's life has been divided.[/i] There are lots of clues to this beyond Dumbledore's "in essence divided" comment. Don't forget how the centaur referred to someone (Voldemort) who survived by drinking unicorns' blood: as living a half-life. And then there are all of those puzzling references throughout the series to twins, pairs, mates, and such. Where are they leading us? Perhaps they are pointing us to the fact that, as long as we have known them, both Harry and Voldie have been split. Neither Harry nor Voldemort has led a life as a complete being.< Something just clicked for me today when I was rereading OOTP, Harry, has at different times thought of Neville as replacing him, on the Quidditch team in his dream in POA, telling the Stan Shunpike of the Knight Bus that he was Neville. Knowing the bond between Voldemort and Harry, I was thinking that Voldemort was influencing Harry into thinking of Neville. That would support the idea that Bellatrix and the other DEs went to the Longbottoms because Voldemort was talking and plotting against Harry and Neville at the same time. IMO Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Fri Jul 23 02:13:02 2004 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 14:13:02 +1200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and the DADA job In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040723141017.0296f170@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 107343 At 14:02 23/07/2004, you wrote: >Asian_lovr2: > >According to this, Snape first applied for and was refused the >position, and since then has /regularly/ applied for and been >consistently refused the position of DADA teacher. > >I don't think that leaves much room for interpretation. I think the >only remaining question is, how does Snape feel about being >/consistently refused/ the job. > >Just a thought. > >Steve/asian_lovr2 Tanya here. I don't know how Snape feels. But it does show one thing if he really wants it. He's not a quitter then. 14 years is a long time to keep applying. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Fri Jul 23 02:32:05 2004 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 02:32:05 -0000 Subject: Something wrong with this Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107344 I wrote: >> If Rowling chose to reveal [Fudge] as capital-E Evil, >> she would be doing more than surprising her readers; >> she would also be undermining one of the major themes >> that she has developed through the novels to >> date. HunterGreen replies: > Why exactly? Forget about his actions in OotP for a > moment, focus just PoA and GoF, what about then? ... > Fudge's character *greatly* points to him being the > type of person who would be sympathisizing with > Voldemort's aim.... However, just because he agrees > with Voldemort's aim, doesn't mean that Fudge is a > death eater, or that he's *directly* working for him. > > You spoke of shades of gray in the HP universe, and > that's exactly what Fudge is, a shade of gray. He can > still be everything we see on the surface: bumbling, > nervous, in love with power, and still have other > motivations that we don't see. They are clues from the > books supporting that, where are the *clues* (not > rhetoric) that go against it? Well, if you are just trying to say Fudge is walking the gray line, it may be that we agree more than we disagree. Certainly, I agree that he is calculating, corrupt and unprincipled. He makes no effort to combat the WW's prejudices, whether or not he agrees with them. But I thought you were going farther than that -- in your first post you implied that Fudge was consciously trying to put Harry at risk of being killed in PA; you have called him "evil" and said you think he sympathizes with Voldemort's aims. Do you mean that he *wants* Voldemort to return to power? I think he surely does not -- Fudge knows that a powerful Voldemort = a new Minister of Magic. Do you really think he has ever wished Harry dead, as opposed to discredited? Again, I think not. Even by OP, when Fudge was becoming desperate, his only goal according to Umbridge was to "silence" Harry by discrediting him (OP ch. 32). It was Umbridge who was willing to resort to illegal methods ("What Cornelius doesn't know won't hurt him") such as orchestrating the dementor attack (id.). I agree that Fudge is some shade of gray, but, again, I don't think he is Evil. I don't think he is prepared to ally himself with Voldemort. And the fact that I'm arguing based on theme and principle rather than some anecdotal "clue" doesn't make my argument rhetorical. -- Matt From snow15145 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 02:34:03 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 02:34:03 -0000 Subject: CoS versus the Dark Mark (was Re: Sirius,Snape,Lily,CoS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107345 I am replying to two posts (very late, I apologize) I think I missed a whole days worth of posts somehow. Post # 104523 - Nadine First, let me say that I really like your ?reading? of the prophecy Snow. I think you are on to something. I would like to add that on her website, JKR says that if ?Ginny had died and Tom Riddle would have escaped the diary (in CoS), it would have strengthened the present day Voldemort considerably.? Why ? Is it because Ginny is full of the same ?power? Harry is suppose to have plenty off ? Could it be love and a little bit of Godric Gryffindor's ? Snow: Good point! So if Voldemort would have received the original body of Tom Riddle, via the diary, Voldemort could have, would have been unstoppable. Nadine: Your post reminded me also of something Voldemort said in the graveyard scene in GoF. He said (The Death Eaters Chapter) : ?.. I was willing to embrace mortal life again (...) I set my sights lower... I would settle for my old body back again and my old strength.? Did he really settle for his old body ? Voldy needed three powerful ingredients : (1) Flesh given by a servant; (2) His father's bone and (3) The blood of a foe. What bugs me is that Tom Riddle Sr. was not a wizard. The Salazar Slytherin's blood that used to flow in Voldemort's old body came from his mother and I presume it was destroyed in Godric's Hollow. Somehow, the ?new? Voldemort seems to be walking around minus the old Salazar Slytherin component. Is he a ?quarter? blood sort of Lord now ? Maybe that is the explanation for the look of triumph in DD's eye. There seem to always be a half something (or someone) missing somewhere. What part am I missing ? Snow: I have said the same thing and I am so glad to hear that I am not alone in this puzzlement. The ingredients to make this new body have to have some type of drawback to it or else why would JKR make the statement that you referred to above? Unless it is more significant for Voldemort to have his original Tom Riddle body. This implies to me that the body that he made for himself is missing an essential ingredient. Now I've come back to the Split Tom Riddle theory. If the part of Tom Riddle that was dormant in Harry cannot be obtained to complete and unify itself with the remains of the part of Tom Riddle in Voldemort then it would make sense that Voldemort would become considerably strengthened by a whole Tom Riddle who came back through the diary. I hope that made sense to someone other than me. Post # 104559 Adan here, somewhat confused: Okay, I think y'all are saying that, basically, there is a bit of Tom in both Harry and Voldemort. That that is their connection. And I can see that. Really, I can. I just don't see how it is to be either Harry or Tom that must die. Would killing Tom in one, automatically kill him in the other? And then, if Tom is what is keeping Voldemort alive, then that would kill Voldemort? I'm so confused. Snow: I believe that there is a battle within Harry. The Tom portion that had lied dormant has been awakened since Voldemort/Tom's rebirth. The conflict though lies within Harry. In OOP Harry appears to be very dark, angry and even to the point of committing an unforgivable against Bella. This doesn't appear to be in Harry's natural nature but it sure looks like something young Tom Riddle would act like. In fact, you hear a lot of talking inside Harry's head, mostly during the Grimald Place scene. Could this be the Tom Riddle within? I think yes. It is the influence of Tom Riddle that is in Harry that Harry needs to fight. If Harry can fight and dominate over this influence he may possibly be able to suffocate one half of Tom Riddle leaving the half that remains in Voldemort worthless, powerless. It was because of the split of Tom Riddle that occurred in Godric's Hollow that the dark lord can be vanquished. When this dark lord, entity possessed Tom Riddle, through open arms from Tom, they became as one, Voldemort. This dark lord could have gone on to another prey except that he has already connected with Tom Riddle who has unfortunately, for him, been split in two. The dark lord cannot move on without the rest of Tom Riddle. He also cannot possess in "great power" another "willing" recipient because of this as-one-connection. Therefore the only hope that the dark lord has is in killing Harry to retrieve the other half of Tom to continue with his future endeavors. Harry does not have the same connection to Tom Riddle as the dark lord does to Tom Riddle because it was "thrust upon Harry unwillingly". Tom Riddle was willing to accept this dark lord and his promises. Harry doesn't choose, as he is a baby, to except or deny the dark lord side of Tom Riddle that lies within. Harry, now older has a choice. It is our choices that save us! Will Harry make the right choice or will he succumb to the enemy that has been inflicted upon him? Sorry again for being late in the reply. Snow From tinainfay at msn.com Fri Jul 23 02:03:35 2004 From: tinainfay at msn.com (mrs_sonofgib) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 02:03:35 -0000 Subject: Snape and the DADA job In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107346 "scott_craft_2000" wrote: > > The only time anybody outside of H/R/Hr that says anything about > > Snape wanting the DADA job is Percy in the PS/SS, so maybe the > > reason he does not have the job is because he does not want it. Brenda wrote: > JKR reinforces the idea during an interview when she discusses why > Dumbledore will not allow Snape to teach dark arts. Also, Dolores refers to it while interviewing him (when she was observing his class). He says he has worked at Hogwarts for 16 years and she comments that he applied for the DADA position but DD didn't hire him. She wonders why and he snarls, 'you'll have to ask him.' Sorry, but I don't have the exact reference handy. ~tina From gelite67 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 02:37:12 2004 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 02:37:12 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Fear of Dumbledore Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107347 I the general consensus is that LV feared DD, but I don't see this in his encounter with DD in OOP. I can't imagine LV admitting any type of fear or weakness to anyone, so how do we know LV feared DD? I know Hermione stated this and I presume it is common knowledge, but again, the question is why. Are we to infer this from the fact that LV resorted to leaving his memory in a diary rather than continue his "housecleaning" activities b/c DD was watching him so closely? Angie From gelite67 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 02:31:34 2004 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 02:31:34 -0000 Subject: Attack on Hogwarts? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107348 I didn't see this in the archives, so here goes? What's the likelihood of an attack on Hogwarts in Book 6 or 7? I know Hogwarts is supposed to be well-protected, but so was Gringotts. There are a lot of secret ways into the school (maybe even some that the Weasley twins didn't discover). I don't believe you can't Apparate into and out of the school just because it says so in "Hogwarts, A History." That would be precisely what the school wanted everyone to believe. Hagrin told Harry in SS that when LV was recruiting and killing, Hogwarts was one of the only safe places left, and that LV, "[d]idn't dare try takin' the school, not just then anyway" apparently because LV feared DD. I can see LV getting desperate enought to do it. Eventually, his desperation could overcome his fear. Angie From dontask2much at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 02:40:35 2004 From: dontask2much at yahoo.com (charme) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:40:35 -0400 Subject: Snape and the DADA job References: Message-ID: <037001c4705e$6f500b50$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> No: HPFGUIDX 107349 > "scott_craft_2000" wrote: > > The only time anybody outside of H/R/Hr that says anything about > > Snape wanting the DADA job is Percy in the PS/SS, so maybe the > > reason he does not have the job is because he does not want it. > Brenda: > JKR reinforces the idea during an interview when she discusses why > Dumbledore will not allow Snape to teach dark arts. Charme: She sure does reinforce that Snape has applied repeatedly in his career...and specifically in OotP, JKR mentions how angry Snape is about the fact Umbridge did so when "observing" his Potions class. Hmm. That rather makes you wonder why Snape is so emotionally invested in the idea of this position, doesn't it? Why does he think he's soooo well suited to do it? Because he was a Death Eater or spies on them? No, I think there's more at work here than Snape just having an obsession about that job, thankyouverymuch. I think it's more likely that Snape and Lucius are in league with each other, or Snape using Lucius's apparently *huge* ego as a way to invite discord into Voldemort's ranks. Lucius is the leader of the DE's at the MoM -he's portrayed as commanding officer, if you will, of that team of DE's. Either way, there's payout for Snape isn't there? The more I think about Snapey-poo, the more I sit the fence. Dumbledore may trust him, but that doesn't mean everyone else has to :) charme From gelite67 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 02:41:14 2004 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 02:41:14 -0000 Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 23: Christmas On The Closed Ward In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107350 >Erica wrote: > > This is one of my favorite scenes of the whole series. > As Ariston states, the significance of the gum wrappers is > their insignificance. In OotP, Neville grows so much as a character. > Between his clumsy successes in the DA, the assault on the MoM, > the revelation of the details of prophecy, and the St Mungo's > scene, Neville grows in ways that Harry does not. By the end > of OotP, Neville has become a hero; not a Harry Potter deus-ex- > machina-always-on-call hero, but a very flawed, very human hero > whose actions rise above his situation. Angie agrees: I also was touched by the fact that Neville defied his gran to keep the wrapper. She wanted him to throw it away, but he kept it. I wonder if Neville's gran has downgraded him all his life, to keep his confidence low and never realize his potential, in order to keep him from becoming an Auror -- because she feared losing him, too. Or maybe she's just a git! From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Fri Jul 23 02:59:14 2004 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 02:59:14 -0000 Subject: Something wrong with this Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107351 SSSusan wrote: > I think Umbridge is the perfect example of what > Sirius said--it's not just good guys & DEs. Umbridge > can remain one of the non-capital-E evil ones...and > Fudge COULD be shown as truly capital-E evil Well of course Umbridge is an example of what Sirius said; she was the one whom he was specifically talking about when he said it. But you have the distinction backward, at least if we are going to rely on canon rather than speculation. Fudge, according to everything that Rowling directly shows us in the books, is corrupt and incompetent, but not evil. By contrast, Rowling specifically portrays Umbridge as evil, both in her actions -- she sends the dementors hoping that they'll off Harry; she resorts to torture -- and in what other characters have to say about her. > Fudge COULD be shown as truly capital-E evil without > ruining JKR's point. Huntergreen is right: if he's > ESE!Fudge, it doesn't negate the *other* negative > stuff--bumbling, weak, prejudiced; it merely adds > another dimension to him. That depends on what point you think Rowling is making. My argument was that one of her major themes is the complexity of individuals and the lack of clear lines between good and evil. If, as I believe, she is using the character of Fudge to make the point that some people are not entirely good or evil, it *would* defeat her point to have him turn out altogether evil. That would not simply add another dimension, it would detract from the very multi-dimensionality that Rowling has tried to portray. -- Matt From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 23 03:07:47 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 03:07:47 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Fear of Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107352 Angie wrote: > I the general consensus is that LV feared DD, but I don't see this > in his encounter with DD in OOP. I can't imagine LV admitting any > type of fear or weakness to anyone, so how do we know LV feared > DD? I know Hermione stated this and I presume it is common > knowledge, but again, the question is why. SSSusan: Not getting into the "why" at this point, I'll simply reply to the question of how we know that LV feared DD. For me, it's more the fact that *JKR* said it in her chapter title. That carries a lot more weight than Hermione's statement for me. For what it's worth, Siriusly Snapey Susan From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 23 03:30:36 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 03:30:36 -0000 Subject: Something wrong with this Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107353 SSSusan wrote earlier: > > I think Umbridge is the perfect example of what > > Sirius said--it's not just good guys & DEs. Umbridge > > can remain one of the non-capital-E evil ones...and > > Fudge COULD be shown as truly capital-E evil Matt: > Well of course Umbridge is an example of what Sirius said; she was > the one whom he was specifically talking about when he said it. SSSusan again: Yeah, well, I said she can *remain* one of the examples. I don't think she's supposed to be the only one, simply because Sirius was talking about her at the moment. As you've stated, this is something JKR likely wants us to consider--that LOTS of people don't fall into "good" and "DE" categories. But as HunterGreen has responded, some people *do* and some people may well be supporters of Voldy, even if they're not officially DEs. There's a whole spectrum, presumably. Matt continued: > But you > have the distinction backward, at least if we are going to rely on > canon rather than speculation. Fudge, according to everything that > Rowling directly shows us in the books, is corrupt and incompetent, > but not evil. By contrast, Rowling specifically portrays Umbridge as > evil, both in her actions -- she sends the dementors hoping that > they'll off Harry; she resorts to torture -- and in what other > characters have to say about her. SSSusan previously: > > Fudge COULD be shown as truly capital-E evil without > > ruining JKR's point. Huntergreen is right: if he's > > ESE!Fudge, it doesn't negate the *other* negative > > stuff--bumbling, weak, prejudiced; it merely adds > > another dimension to him. Matt: > That depends on what point you think Rowling is making. My > argument was that one of her major themes is the complexity of > individuals and the lack of clear lines between good and evil. > If, as I believe, she is using the character of Fudge to make the > point that some people are not entirely good or evil, it *would* > defeat her point to have him turn out altogether evil. That would > not simply add another dimension, it would detract from the very > multi-dimensionality that Rowling has tried to portray. SSSusan: Sorry, but this is all getting to "circular logic-y" for my liking. MY original point was that some people have claimed Fudge is a good ESE! candidate because he opposes DD, is friends w/ Lucius, is unfair to Harry in his trial, won't take the position of informing the WW that Voldy's back even though the evidence is clear, etc.-- all the CLEAR, SURFACEY detail from canon. I then went on to point out that often people argue back that, no, these things don't make Fudge ESE!, they simply make him a waffling, weak, power-hungry bureaucrat. My final point was that, wouldn't it be interesting if, in the end, we find that Fudge truly *is* ESE! but not for the reasons typically stated (and reiterated in this paragraph)? What if it's because he really has been orchestrating truly evil things, such as setting the Dementors on Harry, being in on the Potters' death or helping Wormtail somehow, having Barty, Jr. "kissed" before he could testify so as to protect or hide something, helping Voldy return? Why is that not "allowed"? Why does this NOT reinforce the "people are complex" theme? YOU say that I'm relying on speculation, not canon. But, you know, Matt, that's what we do around here sometimes. And I am speculating BASED ON canon, as I pointed out in 107293. Meltowne had listed some places where things which happened in canon *could* have included Fudge behind the scenes or in ways not fully revealed. Yes, there's some speculation in it, but these also include incidents where Fudge was at least present or an active participant [the Dementor kiss of BCJ; putting the Dementors at Hogwarts; the street blow-up scene w/ Sirius & Peter]. That's just the way I see it, and I don't see that it's not VALID nor that it defeats any purpose of JKR's. Siriusly Snapey Susan From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Jul 23 03:54:01 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 03:54:01 -0000 Subject: Quick question re: Lupin's resignation . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107354 Tooks: >However, I disagree that what occured that night in the Shrieking Shack would ever happen again. The circumstances under which Lupin forgot to take his potion (the only time he forgot that year) were extreme - he was concerned for the children's safety and most likely highly confused to see Wormtail on the map.< Pippin: "As long as I take [the potion] in the week preceding the full moon, I keep my mind when I transform...." -PoA Ch 18 Lupin drinks his potion a week before his transformation in chapter 8, and it seems only one dose is mandatory. ("I made an entire cauldronful," Snape continued, "if you need more." "I should probably take some again tomorrow") So Lupin not only didn't take his potion the night of the Shack, but for six preceding nights--what was he supposed to be upset about then? Pippin who thinks Lupin did take his potion, and was in his right-but -ever-so-evil mind when he transformed. From smartone56441070 at aol.com Fri Jul 23 03:57:50 2004 From: smartone56441070 at aol.com (smartone564) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 03:57:50 -0000 Subject: Think on This...... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107355 Janet said: he did not actually ride Buckbeak in the book (movie > contamination, although a really good scene!) Smart respondes: Well, to be fair, Harry did ride Buckbeak, but not nearly as far or long as he did in the movie (At the time [movie], I was thinking how 'legal' it was to release student(s) to fly where ever they wanted). All Harry did was go once around the paddock, unless I am terribly mistaken. In any case, they did leave the ground, but just for a short time. From meriaugust at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 04:08:26 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 04:08:26 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Fear of Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107356 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > Angie wrote: > > I the general consensus is that LV feared DD, but I don't see this > > in his encounter with DD in OOP. I can't imagine LV admitting any > > type of fear or weakness to anyone, so how do we know LV feared > > DD? I know Hermione stated this and I presume it is common > > knowledge, but again, the question is why. > > > SSSusan: > Not getting into the "why" at this point, I'll simply reply to the > question of how we know that LV feared DD. For me, it's more the > fact that *JKR* said it in her chapter title. That carries a lot > more weight than Hermione's statement for me. > > For what it's worth, > Siriusly Snapey Susan Meri, nitpicking: Yes, but if we accept that then we have to believe that Snape's absolute worst memory despite his possible abusive childhood and years of serivce as a DE was when he was fifteen and humiliated by a pair of idiots in school. Now I was made fun of in high school, but not one of those instances rates as my worst memory. I think that the reason LV fears DD is because he knows deep in his heart (if he has one) that DD is always gonna be stronger than him because LV is afraid of dying and DD simply is not. (The scene referenced in the original post, in the MoM, always reminded me of the scene in Star Wars when Darth Vader and Ben Kenobi were dueling on the Death Star. Vader still feared his old master, despite his own strength, because Ben was not afraid to die and knew that he would become stronger if he was killed.) LV's real fear is fear of dying, and someone for whom that fear is nonexistent would surely be terrifying to LV because there is not much LV could do to them to frighten them. There are, however, probably multiple reasons for LV wanting to, and not yet, attacking the school, which is something that I foresee happening in the next book. I may have posted this before, but I see book six ending in a cliffhanger, with LV bursting...aparating...flying...whatever...into the school grounds and starting some serious shit before the book suddenly ends! ARHG! Meri - who almost fears that the book will end with a chapter with some innocuous title (like "Heading for the Hogwarts Express") and then on the last page a massive explosion blows everything to hell...forcing us to wait three years before a resolution! From ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 04:17:01 2004 From: ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com (ohneill_2001) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 04:17:01 -0000 Subject: Voldemort and the Prophesy --OOP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107358 > > Now Cory: > > > > This is very true, and is only one of several reasons why it was a > > mistake for Dumbledore not to tell Harry what was going on. > > > > Having said that, I am still curious to see how (or whether) > > Dumbledore will use Voldemort's ignorance of the prophecy against > > him in books 6 & 7. I can envision a scenario where DD somehow > > (through Snape?) feeds Voldemort some bad information about what the > > prophecy says, as a means of keeping him under wraps for a while > > longer. > > > > --Cory > > Asian_lovr2: > > Any thoughts on how this might work? > > Voldemort's primary interest in the Prophecy is to find out Harry > strength and weaknesses, so he can plan his attack against Harry. What > could anyone say in that respect that would cause him to remain > underground? Any information, would be likely to be used in planning > an attack on Harry. So, any speculation on what information could be > given that would lead to such a complex plan that it would take > Voldemort month to impliment it. > > Not doubting you, just wondering if you had any specific ideas. Now Cory: I don't have any really specific ideas, but I do have a couple of very general ones. The most obvious scenario I can see would be for DD to convince Voldemort that Harry is much more powerful than he actually is. I wonder what Voldemort's reaction would be if he could be convinced that the prophecy foretells that Harry *will destroy* Voldemort? Or, another idea (and I literally just thought of this one a few seconds ago, so I have not really thought it through yet), but what if Voldemort could be convinced that the prophecy foretells that Harry will *join* Voldemort? One basic premise that I am relying on (with either of these theories) is that Voldemort obviously takes prophecies seriously. We know this because he spent all of OoP trying to get the prophecy out of the DoM. Thus, if he can truly be convinced that the prophecy directs him to take a particular action, he will presumably act accordingly. One complication would be getting him the information in a form that would convince him; we know that he "always" knows when he is being lied to, so the person feeding him the information would have to either believe it to be true themselves, or be very proficient at occlumency. --Cory From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 04:16:31 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 04:16:31 -0000 Subject: JKR's narrative strategy (Was: Whose point of view ?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107359 I (Carol) wrote: >>Anyway, the point is simply that the narrator is not the author, and JKR, as author, has chosen to limit her narrator's omniscience.<< adi answered : >If the narrator is indeed different from the author, wouldn't it raise the question of who it is? You see, you are inventing a fictitious narrator, giving life to the third person vein that the books are told from. I don't think the narrator at least in this case is different from the author.< Carol responds: Me? I'm not inventing a fictitious narrator. I'm just pointing out her use of a common literary straegy. See below. Del replied (to adi): >I am not a lit major, but I know enough about writing to answer anyway. > > It's an author's privilege to decide who is going to tell the story. > It can be the author herself, one of the characters, or a narrator > that has nothing to do with the story. > > Think of it as a commentator at a football game : he's not one of the players, but he's not God either. He's not involved in the match, but he doesn't know anything about what is going to happen. Moreover, he can only watch one thing at a time, so if he decided to concentrate on only one player throughout the whole game, we would know only what > that player did and what the other players who are interacting with > him did. Carol responds: Interesting analogy! But, of course, the strategy works better with a novel than a football game. An author generally has good reasons for wanting us to watch only that one "player" (character)--and unlike your commentator, to see through that "player's" eyes. (And good reasons to occasionally shift the focus to another "player.") > Del: > It's the same with a limited omniscient narrator. Basically, JKR has > gone and fetched some guy (I chose a guy so as not to confuse with her in my explanations) who doesn't know anything about Harry or the WW at first, and has asked him to be the narrator of her story. She > arbitrarily (author's privilege) decided that he should tell things > from Harry's point of view as often as possible, but she allowed him > to change the point of view if necessary. So now she's playing her > story in front of that guy and he's telling us what he sees. He is not one of the characters, he doesn't play any role in the story, but he's not the author either, because he doesn't know the whole story: he discovers it along with us. He doesn't know what is going to happen, this is the author's strict privilege. She *could* decide to share some information with the narrator if she wanted to, but I can't > remember anywhere in the books where the narrator seems to know things he can't possibly know just by watching the story happen. Carol responds: I can think of two places where he does seem to know things that Harry (or the current POV character) doesn't: Chapter 1 and the first paragraph of chapter 2 in SS/PS and the first chapter of GoF. But again, it's the author's privilege to switch narrative strategies where and when it suits her. (There's also the minor instance of knowing that Neville is lying awake that I've mentioned before and another minor instance early in OoP of knowing what a Put-Outer is when Harry doesn't. These can be regarded as authorial slips or as deliberate choices; either way, they're deviations from the pattern that jump out at someone like me who notices narrative technique.) Del: > I don't know if that helped, and I still hope Carol is going to give > her own answer, especially if I got anything wrong :-) Carol responds: Actually, you did a very good job of presenting the concept of limited omniscience from a nontechnical perspective. I just have a few additions or clarifications of my previous post, which I hope will make the concept more intelligible. Again, I didn't invent any of this. It's stuff you learn when you major in literature and then go on to grad school for yet more literary analysis. An author has essentially five types of narrator to choose from: first-person participant (uses "I" to tell the story and is a main character), first-person spectator (uses "I" to tell the story but is a minor character), third-person omniscient (uses "he"/"she" and can get inside any character's mind; often indistinguishable from the author's own voice), third-person limited omniscient (uses "he"/"she"; can get inside the mind of a single character or a very few characters), and third-person objective/dramatic (uses "he"/"she"; sees characters from the outside only). Narrative strategy is a stylistic device, just as choosing to write in dialect was a stylistic device for Mark Twain in "Huckleberry Finn" (who also *chose* a first-person participant naive narrator who obviously isn't himself). Basically, there are things JKR doesn't want us to know--like what happened at Godric's Hollow or why Snape left the DEs or what's up with Percy--and by limiting the narrator's knowledge, she limits our knowledge as well. I suggest that anyone who's confused by the concept look closely at the narrative strategies used by various well-known authors (Hemingway vs. Tolstoy?). Melville's "Moby Dick," one of my favorite books, starts out with a first-person narrator (Ishmael) who's somewhere between a spectator and participant, but later in the book, Melville experiments with other narrative strategies for scenes that Ishmael can't possibly overhear, including a soliloquy by Starbuck that's set up like a scene from a play and another scene involving Starbuck using third-person limited so that we can know Starbuck's thoughts (as Ishmael can't unless he's eavesdropping and Starbuck is thinking out loud). Or take a look at Dickens' "Bleak House," which alternates a naive first-person narrator (Esther) with an unnamed third-person objective narrator, who presents the detective story elements of the novel. These narrators have distinctive voices, neither of which is Dickens' own (which you can "hear" by reading his letters). Or how about "The Hobbit" vs. "Lord of the Rings," both of which can be considered third-person limited because Tolkien limits himself to the point of view of the hobbits but which are written in very different "voices"--a cheerful, avuncular narrator talking to children (in "Hobbit") and a more distant and impersonal narrator relating the story to adult readers from a particular hobbit's perspective without being personally involved (in LOTR). (I could go on about how Tolkien varies his narrative voice with the relative dignity of the scene and characters present, but I don't want to go OT.) The main point is that a narrator is a persona that the author adopts, not the author "speaking" in his or her own voice. Think how different the books would be if an omniscient narrator sometimes followed Hagrid around and filtered the action and dialogue through his perspective, giving us background on his life with his dad after his mother left and what he went through at Azkaban, for example, then shifted to Hermione and the classes she attends without Harry for a chapter, and then moved on to to Snape or Dumbledore--or left Hogwarts altogether to explore Fudge or Percy at the MoM? How about the POV of Professor Binns? Would it even be possible to get inside the head of a ghost? And how interesting would it be if the narrator could? And would knowing all those perspectives help us at all unless a so-called "intrusive omniscient narrator" interpreted them for us and told us what to think? I for one hate it when a narrator does that. (I also find it jarring when a first-person narrator addresses the reader: "Reader, I married him!" Love the book. Hate the line. But I digress.) As I said before, I didn't make up these terms and concepts, though unfortunately the terminology and definitions have not been standardized and vary slightly from source to source. But any literary critic will take it for granted that authors *choose* a narrative strategy (a narrative voice and a point of view) based on how much they want the reader to know and how close they want the connection between the reader and particular characters to be. And JKR is no exception. I, for one, am glad she chose a limited omniscient narrator, which is far and away the best narrative strategy for this book, IMHO. Carol, hoping she hasn't confused you even more (or bored you, which would be worse!) From erinellii at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 04:18:09 2004 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (Erin) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 04:18:09 -0000 Subject: Something wrong with this Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107360 > SSSusan: > MY original point was that some people have claimed Fudge is a good > ESE! candidate because he opposes DD, is friends w/ Lucius, is > unfair to Harry in his trial, won't take the position of informing > the WW that Voldy's back even though the evidence is clear, etc.-- > all the CLEAR, SURFACEY detail from canon. Erinellii: I am willing to entertain the notion that Fudge is evil simply because *Snape has talked to him*. See my earlier post: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/107298 Hey, no one's commented on it yet, so here I am, reduced to butting in on other people's discussions :-) --Erin From ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 04:33:02 2004 From: ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com (ohneill_2001) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 04:33:02 -0000 Subject: Ginny and the entrancing Veil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107361 dcgmck wrote: > > Hypothesis: Ginny's possession by the young Tom Riddle might well > have tainted her psyche if not her conscious memory with Riddle's > witnessing of Moaning Myrtle's death. Do you think he actually > witnessed MM's death or just instigated it by setting the basilisk > loose? Again, lacking canonical evidence one way or the other... Now Cory: I don't know whether young TR saw MM's death or not, but for purposes of your argument, I would argue that it does not matter. The person who possessed Ginny (if "person" is the right word), was not just the 16-year-old Riddle. It was the memory of Riddle's 16- year-old self, but it was also a person that knew Riddle / Voldemort's future, including the killing of Harry's parents and his demise by Harry. Thus, if we are theorizing that Ginny was mesmerized by the veil because of her possession by Riddle, it should not matter whether Riddle saw MM's death. She could have just as easily have been tainted by the memory of the countless other deaths that Riddle / Voldemort caused throughout his life. --Cory From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 05:11:31 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 05:11:31 -0000 Subject: An etymology for Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107362 Adi worte: I do not keep up with the etymology lists on the net, but the etymology for Kreacher seems to me this. Kreacher, seems to be merely a different spelling for the word 'creature'. Since Kreacher is supposed to be what he is because of the (can we call it that?) racial discrimination shown towards him by the other wizards. Sue responded: > > Yes, Kreacher does, indeed, sound like "creature" and that's probably what it means. JKR does a lot of this Dickensian naming, as we've all noticed, with characters having appropriate names! :-) Carol adds: I think the reader (even a very young reader) is supposed to catch--and react to--the name Kreacher, which certainly does suggest "creature" in the sense of a lesser (or at any rate, nonhuman) being (in our world, usually an animal). Think of the implications of giving him that name and its effect on his view of himself as he realized its meaning. But that may be only the surface level. There's also the original meaning of "creature" as a thing or being that has been created, as in "we are all God's creatures." In this sense, Kreacher is the "creature" of the Black family (and the house-elves in general are the "creatures" of the wizards who own them or condone the system); he is what they have made him. There's another, secondary, meaning of the word "creature" that may also be relevant: "one that is the servile dependent or tool of another" (Webster's Tenth)--as Wormtongue is Saruman's "creature" in LOTR and Wormtail is Voldemort's in GoF. That definition fits Kreacher, too--the servile dependent and tool of the Black family, including Narcissa. I may be wrong, but I think JKR was aware of these definitions as well as the more obvious sense of the word. Otherwise, the name is no more than a cruel pun on the part of whichever member of the Black family bestowed it. Worth considering, anyway. Carol From gelite67 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 02:48:52 2004 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 02:48:52 -0000 Subject: Incomplete Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107363 > > mz_annethrope wrote > > The prophecy in PoA also uses ellipses: "TONIGHT...BEFORE > > MIDNIGHT...THE SERVANT...WILL SET OUT..." and so on. I don't > > think there's meant to be any omissions here. Ellipses can > > also be used to indicate faltering speech, or so my Chicago > > Manual of Style indicates. I think something like that is > > happening here, but instead of faltering speech we get big > > dramatic pauses. Four dots probably indicates the end of a > > sentence. Angie responds: I actually thought of that (ellipses indicating pauses) after I posted. I went back and read the prophecy in POA and saw the ellipses there, too. You may be very well be right about the purpose of the ellipses, but it still seems like the prophecy is incomplete to me. But, then again, Trelawney is kinda flaky! From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 06:50:50 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 06:50:50 -0000 Subject: Doesn't Voldemort know about Snape's loyalty? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107364 Angie wondered: Voldemort wouldn't have to know anything about the Order to know that Snape was trying to prevent Quirrell from getting the Stone, which would mean he was working against Voldemort. > > Potioncat responded: But LV did not reveal himself to anyone. Quirrell hadn't been a DE, he had been "recruited" more recently. If Snape suspected something, he most likely made it appear that he wanted the stone for himself. I doubt that between Snape and Quirrell the LV-DD situation even came up. > > SSSusan added: Yes, I think Potioncat is right. Whatever Snape knew or suspected, really, he could have just been attempting to stop some evil *individual* wizard who wanted to attain immortal life. Since Voldy hadn't been seen or heard from for 12 years, Snape could **easily** plead "How could I have known??" if he'd been confronted by Voldy later. Carol responds: First, my apologies for not going up thread but my time is limited, so If I'm duplicating anyone, it's not intentional. First, I think Snape did know that he was opposing Voldemort. True, he couldn't have known that Voldemort was inside Quirrell's head, but he may have suspected that Quirrell was somehow connected with Voldemort (a tingling in the Dark Mark when he was near him?) He wouldn't have been stupid enough to voice his suspicions openly, but I think that he did have them. Given Snape's gift for occlumency (and basic Slytherin deception?), it's possible that SSS is right about his ability to convince LV (via Malfoy?) that he was opposing Quirrell as "an individual evil wizard"--IOW opposing Quirrell but not opposing Voldemort. But I don't think that's the case. IMO, Snape's remark to Quirrell about "where your loyalties lie" told Quirrell (and therefore Voldemort) that Snape's loyalty lay with Dumbledore--and therefore with Dumbledore's most feared enemy, if not in direct opposition to Voldemort himself. That would undermine his assertion that he was opposing Quirrell *as* Quirrell. And Voldemort isn't known for making generous assumptions, such as, "If you're not directly opposing me, you must be on my side." So I agree with Angie that the Quirrell incident at least aroused LV's suspicions about Snape. That, combined with Snape's absence from the graveyard in GoF, would be enough to make Voldemort believe *at that time* that Snape had left him forever. (And, IMO, he would have been right.) But I think that between his gift for occlumency and his native cunning, Snape somehow convinced Voldemort (probably via Malfoy) that he's still a loyal DE (or maybe LV just found the Snape/Malfoy connection useful and delayed trying to kill Snape for that reason). How Snape is going to work with the DEs now that Malfoy is in Azkaban is another question, especially if Voldemort suspects that Snape was connected with the Order's arrival in the MoM in addition to his previous acts of disloyalty. I also agree with Angie that Voldemort wouldn't have to know anything about the Order to know (or suspect) that Snape was working against him in SS/PS. In fact, the Order wasn't even revived until the end of GoF when Dumbledore sent Sirius to round up Arabella Figg and Mundungus Fletcher and "all the old gang" (quoting from memory). In SS/PS, CoS, PoA, and most of GoF, Snape is Dumbledore's agent and righthand man, and he may also be working with McGonagall and the other heads of houses, but the Order itself (of which he was not an original member) is still dormant at that point. Carol, who will be in San Diego and away from her computer for the next three days and is trying (futilely) to catch up on posting tonight so if this post is incoherent or unconvincing, forgive me! From tinainfay at msn.com Fri Jul 23 02:53:52 2004 From: tinainfay at msn.com (mrs_sonofgib) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 02:53:52 -0000 Subject: Attack on Hogwarts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107365 Angie wrote: > What's the likelihood of an attack on Hogwarts in Book 6 or 7? > Hagrid told Harry in SS that when LV was recruiting and killing, > Hogwarts was one of the only safe places left, and that LV, "[d] > idn't dare try takin' the school, not just then anyway" apparently > because LV feared DD. I am absolutely expecting an attack on Hogwarts (and mentioned it here a few days ago :-) ). There are many tricky references. For example: CoS Am PB p 314 The Heir of Slytherin "Even when you were strong, you didn't dare try and take over Hogwarts." (Harry speaking to Tom). I'm not sure if it would be in 6th or 7th book though? There have been many mentions along these lines in the books. Maybe one day I'll compile them. The days ahead are going to rough for Harry and Co. ~tina From gelite67 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 02:55:22 2004 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 02:55:22 -0000 Subject: James, the Head Boy, but not a Prefect Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107366 Hagrid told Harry in SS that James was Head Boy and Lily was Head Girl. But in OOP, we find out that James was not a Prefect; in fact, Harry is comforted by the thought. I would think you couldn't be Head Boy unless you were a Prefect first. But I guess DD can do whatever he likes! Angie From dontask2much at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 02:59:08 2004 From: dontask2much at yahoo.com (charme) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:59:08 -0400 Subject: CoS versus the Dark Mark (was Re: Sirius,Snape,Lily,CoS) References: Message-ID: <038501c47061$0646fa30$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> No: HPFGUIDX 107367 ----- Original Message ----- From: "snow15145" >>Post # 104523 - Nadine >>>Snow: Good point! So if Voldemort would have received the original body of Tom Riddle, via the diary, Voldemort could have, would have been unstoppable.<<< >>>>Post # 104559 Adan here, somewhat confused: Okay, I think y'all are saying that, basically, there is a bit of Tom in both Harry and Voldemort. That that is their connection. And I can see that. Really, I can. I just don't see how it is to be either Harry or Tom that must die. Would killing Tom in one, automatically kill him in the other? And then, if Tom is what is keeping Voldemort alive, then that would kill Voldemort? I'm so confused.<<<<< Charme: What if Tom Riddle's soul really isn't part of Harry? What if it's Lily essence instead? Notice that when DD questions in the "in essence divided?" scene of OotP, Voldemort nor Tom's name is referenced at the time it occurred.. Harry's ability to "share" Voldemort's thoughts may actually be a side benefit of his scar, due to the charm Lily may have placed on him for protection. I keep recalling in CoS where Lucius Malfoy called Harry's parents "meddlesome fools" when Dobby intervened after his sock freedom. What were they meddling IN? (That brings up another thought as well: why would Malfoy also say that one of these days, Harry was going to meet the same "sticky" end? Sticky. The word could have been painful or difficult, or even bind, if you check your Thesaurus. Odd word to use, isn't it?) charme From mhbobbin at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 03:13:17 2004 From: mhbobbin at yahoo.com (mhbobbin) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 03:13:17 -0000 Subject: Something wrong with this Fudge Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107368 meltowne wrote: >>> I've been thinking abou our friend from the ministry, Cornelius Fudge. I can't quite decide what to make of him, but I know there's something odd that JKR has been hinting at all along. 1 - He was the first on the scene when Wormtail disappeared. 2 - The night that Bertha Jorkins found out about Barty Crouch Jr, wasn't Crouch Sr, having dinner with the Fudges? 3 - Fudge got the Minister job when it appeared that Crouch had a bad apple in his family. Was Barty really responsible for torturing the Longbottoms? Why did Fudge have the dementors kiss him so quickly? I think Barty Jr knew something about Fudge that he wanted kept hidden. 4 - in PoA, Crouch wants to make sure Harry stays in Diagon Alley. (5) - What if Fudge was with Wormtail & LV at Godrics Hollow? Fudge gives Wormtail advice to "disappear for a while" and to fake his own death. (6) - Fudge clearly holds some of the same beliefs as the death eaters,regarding muggles and half-bloods.<<< SSSusan now: >>> snip On the other hand, does anybody else think it's just possible that JKR might be *deliberately* getting us to focus on "misguided, bumbling, quintessential bureaucrat Fudge" so that we don't seriously consider the possibility of his being ESE! and "behind it all"?? snip It's those behind-the-scenes situations where Fudge was in position to have orchestrated some of the key episodes which make him a candidate for ESE!Fudge: allowing Barty, Jr. to be kissed before testifying; Sirius' apparently-not-all-that-difficult escape from Azkaban; the Dementors' seeming *focus* on Harry over anyone else; his placement of Umbridge at Hogwarts; the possibility that he could have worked w/ Pettigrew in some way, either at GH or in the aftermath. All these really did occur in canon or at least can be supported with canon. Maybe Fudge isn't ESE! for the reasons often put forth [power- hungry MoM in at least partial alignment w/ DE goals & values] but because he's truly orchestrated all these things all along, from behind the scenes, to help Voldy return. snip <<< mhbobbin adds: I think the question comes down to ---is Fudge's counter-productive behavior intentional or the result of him being a "misguided, bumbling, quintessential bureaucrat". Or both. If his behavior is intentional, then the question becomes== is he actively working for LV; just out to keep power; or passively supporting LV. Over the last few days, I have started to believe that Fudge is a classic JKR switcheroo. While his counterproductive behavior increases in each book--and is clearly intentional in OotP, it is most intriguing to me in PoA, which I hadn't noticed till these recent posts. Fudge shows up at strategic moments throughout the Sirius - Pettigrew story line. 1. Per Fudge, he is one of the first MoM officials on the scene after Sirius supposedly killed Pettigrew and the 12 muggles. Interestingly, there were eyewitnesses to that scene, but as Fudge says--the MoM had to erase their memories. We know only enough about that scene to know that the hole in the sewer that Pettigrew escapes through isn't the only hole in the story. Note that Pettigrew is described by Mcgonagall as "hopeless at dueling" while Sirius believes that Pettigrew was able to get the better of him because his wand was hidden behind his back. Which implies that Sirius didn't see what happened either. Any wizard who was "one of the first" on the scene should be under suspicion. 2. In Azkaban, Fudge gives Sirius the newspaper with the photo of the Weasleys on the Front Page. The one with Scabbers. The one that causes Sirius to mumble "He's at Hogwarts." Shortly after Fudge's inspection of Azkaban, a motivated Sirius escapes. Coincidence? 3. How did the Weasleys get a picture on the front page of The Daily Prophet--the paper controlled by the MoM. By winning the Daily Prophet prize. Interesting. Qualifies as possibly being under the indirect influence of Fudge. 4. Fudge seems to send the Knight Bus after Harry. Glosses over Harry's transgressions. Keeps him at Diagon Alley. Might be protecting him. Might be preventing him from contact with Sirius. Fudge is showing up at another strategic moment. 5. Hogsmeade--- At The Three Broomsticks, frequented by the kids and teachers, on one of three Hogsmeade weekends, it is Fudge that reveals the background of the Sirius - Pettigrew duel that ended with Sirius in prison. Why is he revealing this to Madame Rosmerta? Just to impress her and the teachers he is with? Or does Fudge want this information to get back to Harry---is he one of those who think Harry will recklessly try to go find Sirius and kill him. Or is Fudge hoping that if Harry meets up with Sirius, that Harry won't listen to Sirius because of this information. In fact, that is what almost happens in the Shrieking Shack. Harry doesn't want to hear Sirius out. He wants to kill Sirius. Lupin interrupts this lovely moment. Had Fudge not leaked this information, would Harry have wanted to kill Sirius? Doubtful. So again, we find Fudge in a strategic moment in the Sirius - Pettigrew story line. 6. And then there are the Dementors. Fudge seems to be the only one who can communicate with them in PoA. And they seem to be strangely attracted to Harry long before Harry gives them a reason. Fudge shows up so often in this story line, he should be considered, as the FBI would say, a "person of interest". 7. And before I forget---How did Scabbers find his way to Percy? Did someone from the Ministry give him to the Weasleys? Why is it we don't know. If we were to find out it was Fudge, would the case against Fudge be made? What would his motivation be? Not sure yet. The events that Fudge sets in motion end with Pettigrew's escape back to LV. Maybe that 's just the law of unintended consequences. There would have been easier ways for Fudge to help LV out. Maybe Fudge wants to be sure that Sirius gets destroyed--something Azkaban wasn't doing. Maybe eyewitnesses saw more than has been revealed--like the man who turned into a rat. One does not get the Order of Merlin (it's one of his distinctions) when one lets the rat escape==one gets it for something like bringing the deadly Sirius Black in. If Fudge is really evil --not necessarily a DE---wouldn't it be best to be a bumbling idiot around DD--who can read minds. Wouldn't it be best to humbly ask his advice?I don't know what to make of all this thread yet. But I do find it interesting that Fudge pops up in the story line so often at strategic points. A person of interest indeed. mhbobbin From gelite67 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 03:35:40 2004 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 03:35:40 -0000 Subject: Snape and the DADA job In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107369 "scott_craft_2000" wrote: > > The only time anybody outside of H/R/Hr that says anything about > > Snape wanting the DADA job is Percy in the PS/SS, so maybe the > > reason he does not have the job is because he does not want it. > > Any suggestions? Angie replies: In OOP, when asked by Umbridge, Snape himself affirms that he has applied regularly for the DADA position since he joined HW 14 years ago. Snape suggests that Umbridge ask DD why DD has consistently refused to appoint him as DADA teacher. From kacie0223 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 04:16:32 2004 From: kacie0223 at yahoo.com (kacie0223) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 04:16:32 -0000 Subject: Voldemort and the Prophesy --OOP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107370 > > > Angie wrote: > > > I don't see how gaining access to the prophecy would help > > > Voldemort. How would it be a weapon? > > > Asian_lovr2: > > Ahhh... but you only say that because you know what the > > Prophecy says, Voldemort does not. > > Angie replies: > But I thought that Voldemort thought he had heard the entire > prophecy. When did he find out that there was more than he > had originally heard? Isn't it more like he realized there may have been more than he was aware of and wanted to get hold of it to see if there was something he wasn't attending to or some kind of information that might help him defeat Harry? I don't think he *knew* there was something else in the prophecy, I think it was more of a suspicion. > who referred to the prophecy as a weapon? Sirius initially referred to the prophecy as being 'like a weapon' and I think this was just so the Harry would have just enough information for the time being. > Are we to assume that DD is the only person besides Trelawney who > knows the entire prophecy? I suspect that they may be or possibly DD has filled in key members of the order. "kacie0223" From dolis5657 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 05:35:10 2004 From: dolis5657 at yahoo.com (dcgmck) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 05:35:10 -0000 Subject: Ginny and the entrancing Veil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107371 > dcgmck wrote: > > > > Hypothesis: Ginny's possession by the young Tom Riddle might well have tainted her psyche if not her conscious memory with Riddle's witnessing of Moaning Myrtle's death. Do you think he actually witnessed MM's death or just instigated it by setting the basilisk loose? > > Now Cory: > > I don't know whether young TR saw MM's death or not, but for > purposes of your argument, I would argue that it does not matter. > > The person who possessed Ginny (if "person" is the right word), was > not just the 16-year-old Riddle. It was the memory of Riddle's 16- > year-old self, but it was also a person that knew Riddle / > Voldemort's future, including the killing of Harry's parents and > his demise by Harry. Thus, if we are theorizing that Ginny was > mesmerized by the veil because of her possession by Riddle, it > should not matter whether Riddle saw MM's death. She could have > just as easily have been tainted by the memory of the countless > other deaths that Riddle / Voldemort caused throughout his life. dcgmck again: Hm... I see what you're saying. In fact, if Ginny's possession had had the effect I initially suggested, she shouldn't have had any trouble seeing the threstrals. Still, I don't think the memory of Riddle knew any more of what his future self had done than what Ginny told him in the diary before Harry started communicating with him. Of course, then Riddle possessed Ginny again... OK. But Harry knew even less than Ginny did in his second year at Hogwarts. OK, I'm confused again. How would the memory have learned enough to contaminate Ginny, unless it was outside of the visible narrative line while at the Malfoy estate? From ariston3344 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 06:14:46 2004 From: ariston3344 at yahoo.com (ariston3344) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 06:14:46 -0000 Subject: Doesn't Voldemort know about Snape's loyalty? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107372 Potioncat wrote: > Quirrell hadn't been a > DE, he had been "recruited" more recently. If Snape suspected > something, he most likely made it appear that he wanted the > stone for himself. I doubt that between Snape and Quirrell the LV > DD situation even came up. SSSusan replied: > Yes, I think Potioncat is right. Whatever Snape knew or > suspected, really, he could have just been attempting to stop some > evil *individual* wizard who wanted to attain immortal life. > Since Voldy hadn't been seen or heard from for 12 years, Snape > could **easily** plead "How could I have known??" if he'd been > confronted by Voldy later. ariston wonders: Isn't the fact that Quirrell jinxed Harry's broom a tipoff that he was interested in more than just immortality for himself? If at the end of GoF Snape went to worm his way back into Voldy's good graces, my best guess is that he either: (a) pretended to switch sides again (something like, "My Lord, I deserted you before, but I have returned to my true home, where I have always belonged.") or (b) openly stated that he was a mercenary like Pettigrew who always follows whoever he thinks will "win", and that this time he thinks that doddering old fool Dumbledore is bound to lose, so here he is, at his Lord's service. (Voldy knows that Pettigrew isn't really loyal to him, so this might have a slim chance of actually working.) I'm not at all sure that Snape *has* wormed his way back into Voldy's good graces. But if he did follow either of the above options, either one could well have been followed by a little crucio action or worse -- which would explain why Snape & Dumbledore were so apprehensive about Snape's task at the end of GoF. -ariston From joyfulstoryteller at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 05:43:09 2004 From: joyfulstoryteller at yahoo.com (joyfulstoryteller) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 05:43:09 -0000 Subject: Something wrong with this Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107373 > SSSusan: > MY original point was that some people have claimed Fudge is a > good ESE! candidate because he opposes DD, is friends w/ Lucius, > is unfair to Harry in his trial, won't take the position of > informing the WW that Voldy's back even though the evidence is > clear, etc.-- all the CLEAR, SURFACEY detail from canon. Joyfulstoryteller: One of the cannon tidbits that leads me to believe that Fudge is either actually evil, or at least suspicious, is something that no one has mentioned yet... In PS/SS, Fudge is the one who sent the owl to Dumbledore, taking him away from Hogwarts at the same time as Quirrell/Voldemort is making the attempt to steal the Philosopher's (Sorcerer's) Stone. It's easy to miss, especially as Hagrid has already set us up to dismiss it by stating that Fudge is constantly running to Dumbledore for advice. But Dumbledore himself tells us that no sooner did he reach London than it became clear to him that he needed to head back to Hogwarts. (US paperback, Ch.17, p.297) I didn't really even notice it myself until I read OotP for the first time because I went back and re-read the whole series right before hand, and reading them all together like that allowed me to notice all of the strange coincidences that link Cornelius Fudge with very suspicious goings-on. Once is accident, twice is coincidence, and three times is enemy action... Fudge has more than three strikes against him in my book. From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 07:26:14 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:26:14 -0000 Subject: Ginny and the entrancing Veil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107374 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ohneill_2001" wrote: > dcgmck wrote: > > > > Hypothesis: Ginny's possession by the young Tom Riddle might well > > have tainted her psyche if not her conscious memory with Riddle's > > witnessing of Moaning Myrtle's death. Do you think he actually > > witnessed MM's death ... > Now Cory: > > I don't know whether young TR saw MM's death or not, but for > purposes of your argument, I would argue that it does not matter. > Asian_lovr2: Yes, like Cory, I'm confused. Why is it specifically Moaning Myrtle's death that is important? I'm not against Ginny's psyche being tainted by her possession by Tom Riddle. I think that's a clever idea and very possible. I've had several similar ideas pass through my own mind. For example, I thought it would be cool if Harry was staying at Ginny's (the Weasley's) house, took a walk in the garden, and found Ginny talking to a garden snake. Just a little something left over from she was possessed. I'm not saying I believe that will happen, just thought it was a cool idea when it came to me. So, my main point is the significants of Moaning Myrtle. > The person who possessed Ginny ..., was not just the 16-year-old > Riddle. It was the memory of Riddle's 16-year-old self, but it was > also a person that knew Riddle/Voldemort's future, including the > killing of Harry's parents and his demise by Harry. Thus, if we are > theorizing that Ginny was mesmerized by the veil because of her > possession by Riddle, it should not matter whether Riddle saw MM's > death. She could have just as easily have been tainted by the > memory of the countless other deaths that Riddle/Voldemort caused > throughout his life. > > --Cory Asian_lovr2: Yes, up to a point. Let's be sure we understand that the nearly revived memory of Diary!Tom Riddle was not in any kind of contact with the real Voldemort. Voldemort did not witness what happened in the Chamber of Secrets, and does not share knowledge with Diary!Tom beyond his 16th year and what was written in the diary. Diary!Tom did have knowledge of events that occured after his 16th year, but only to the extent that people wrote in the diary and told him about those events. As far as being tainted by "...the countless other deaths that Riddle/Voldemort caused throughout his life", only those deaths that Diary!Tom had personal knowledge of would count. Death commited by Voldemort after Riddle's 16th year would all be second hand knowledge, NOT first hand experience, to Diary!Tom. However, the original opening of The Chamber seems to have occurred in Tom's 15th year. In summer of his 16th year he killed his father and grandparents, then return to Hogwarts where he finished his Diary charm. So, Tom has experienced death first hand. Since we don't actually know Tom's birthday, saying when he was 15 or 16 is difficult. However, if he is like a majority of students, his age changed while he was in school. So the first Chamber of Secrets was likely his 15th/16th year, and the death of his parents was likely his 16th/17th year which is also the time when he created the Diary. That techincal point aside, Diary!Tom most likely did have first hand knowledge of death; Moaning Myrtle, his father, and his grandparents. However, I don't think it is necessary for Tom Riddle to have had first hand experience with death for Ginny to be drawn to The Veil. Ginny was a hair's breadth from death herself. When Harry finally destroyed Diary!Tom, Tom was virtually solid, which means that Ginny had not more than a drop of life left in her. Certainly, she was close enough to have internally processed death. As a side note: although the book implies that Ginny can't see the Thestrals, it doesn't flat out say it, and I think rather tactfully avoids the issue. The primary hint that Ginny can't see them, is the fact that she waits for Luna to help her mount the Thestral. But I personally don't know if she can't see them, or if she is just waiting for a definitive course of action to be decided. Either way, that's a slightly unrelated point to the main topic here. To the central point, I like the idea of a bit of residual Diary!Tom staying in Ginny, and can see many possible story lines developing from it. Just a few thoughts. Steve/asian_lovr2 From trishel2 at hotmail.com Fri Jul 23 06:55:22 2004 From: trishel2 at hotmail.com (rebeccatrishel) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 06:55:22 -0000 Subject: The HBP is DEAD Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107375 I'm sorry if somebody has already said this, because I haven't been reading the posts for a long time ... BUT ... Okay. A lot of people have been asking, "Who is the Half Blood Prince?" I want to know, "Why did J.K. Rowling leave out the hyphen between half and blood? To drive me crazy until the book comes out?" and more important, "What will the HBP bring to the battle between Voldemort and Harry?" I think the most important clue is what JK Rowling has said on her site: that the HBP is neither Voldemort nor Harry. That says something hugely significant that most fans seem to have missed: Book 6 can't be about the search for the HBP, or she never would have told us who he isn't. And besides, imagine a book wherein Harry, Ron, and Hermione stumble around looking for a mysterious prince, the most likely candidate being Harry himself and Voldemort? She's already written that book. CoS. That has huge implications. If there won't be a search for the HBP, then we should learn who he is first thing, and there will be no doubt about it. I mean, chapter 1, paragraph 1: "'Dear Harry,' Hermione's letter said, 'we met the Half Blood Prince today, and it turns out he's (fill in the blank)." And if that's true--there is no search for the HBP--why is he important enough to be the title? And another thing: if the HBP was some wizard living in England, why does he have a whole title? He must have something important to do with the Volde/HP conflict, the main storyline in our books. At this point in the series, the second-to-last book, he must be someone extremely important. In fact, someone more powerful than Harry. Someone more powerful than Dumbledore. Somebody more powerful than Harry, Dumbledore, and the Order of Phoenix combined, or why would they trouble themselves about him? And is there room for somebody that powerful in the HP universe? Why hasn't anyone mentioned him before? Both of those deductions lead me to supposed the following: the HBP can't be someone human now living. I just don't think there's room. So, what other possibilities are there? There's the possibility that the HBP is someone non-human, but it kinda grates that they could be so powerful. I really hate the idea of a whole book of Harry trying to convince the Crown Prince of Selkies to fight against Voldemort. Bo--ring. He could also be not yet born, but I doubt that the Harry Potter books will ever have a plot device that centers on pregnancy. Imagine that the HBP is Voldie's son: "Harry looked at Bellatrix's swollen stomache in sudden horror. 'No-- ' he said fearfully. 'Yes!' Voldemort sneered coldly. 'I have given rise to a new order!' 'Are you telling me,' said Harry faintly, 'that you impregnated Bellatrix Black with an evil demon-child?' 'Evil demon BOY, actually. We had an ultrasound yesterday.'" Yuck! So, how about the HBP being someone who has been dead the whole series? Godric Gryffindor and Salazar Slytherine are good candidates, but it could be almost any dead guy. In that case, the HBP won't detract from Harry's and Dumbledore's struggle against Voldemort, and the plot wouldn't have to center around him. The HBP would be someone who was important to the Pureblood-extremists/non-pureblood- extremist conflict in the past, and someone whose character is important to Harry in some way. Heir of Gryffindor, anyone? --Rebecca From ariston3344 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 06:56:56 2004 From: ariston3344 at yahoo.com (ariston3344) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 06:56:56 -0000 Subject: Apparate into Hogwarts? (was Re: Attack on Hogwarts?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107376 Angie wrote: > I don't believe you can't Apparate into and out of the school just > because it says so in "Hogwarts, A History." ariston: Yes, indeed, constant vigilance! You can't trust everything you read. :-) But personally, I think that the *real* reason it's impossible to apparate within Hogwarts is because if you could, that would render the barriers to getting the PS in book 1 superfluous. That is, JKR probably didn't decide to include apparition in her world until after she had the basic plot of PS finished, and then she either had to completely change PS or else explain why the barriers to the Stone were effective. She chose to keep the plot of PS. Or, perhaps she had planned on including apparition all along but just overlooked this fairly big hole, and then covered it up in later books. This is pure speculation -- maybe JKR intended to include both apparition in general and its impossibility withing Hogwarts all along. But still, I believe it's really true that you can't apparate within the Hogwarts grounds. Not because of what it says in _Hogwarts, a History_ (which I really really really want to read some day :), but because the plot of PS depends on its being so. Yes, it's still *possible* that you really could find a way to apparate even though everyone thinks you can't, but if that was a possibility the faculty took seriously, they probably wouldn't have bothered with all those obstacles. And if the faculty don't take that option seriously, that's good enough for me. :-) -ariston From trishel2 at hotmail.com Fri Jul 23 07:07:29 2004 From: trishel2 at hotmail.com (rebeccatrishel) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:07:29 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Fear of Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107377 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meriaugust" wrote: > Meri wrote: > > Yes, but if we accept that then we have to believe that Snape's > absolute worst memory despite his possible abusive childhood and > years of serivce as a DE was when he was fifteen and humiliated by > a pair of idiots in school. Now I was made fun of in high school, > but not one of those instances rates as my worst memory. Rebecca Trishel says: Hey, replace "worst" with "most embarrassing." "Snape's Most Embarrassing Memory." or "Snape's Worst Memory As Far As Embarrassment and Humiliation Is Concerned." I read of one guy who claims his most embarrassing memory is watching the scene in "Phantom Menace" when Queen Amidala orders R2D2 to be cleaned up, as it "deserves our gratitude." If somebody can, tongue-in-cheek, claim to be most embarrassed by a movie, I'm willing to believe Snape's "worst" memory is having his pants taken off by James Potter. --Rebecca Trishel From trishel2 at hotmail.com Fri Jul 23 07:15:36 2004 From: trishel2 at hotmail.com (rebeccatrishel) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:15:36 -0000 Subject: Voldemort and the Prophesy --OOP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107378 kacie0223 wrote (about others than Dumbledore and Trelawney knowing the prophecy): > I suspect that they may be or possibly DD has filled in key members > of the order. Rebecca Trishel says: Well, Trelawney has no memory of either of her "true" predictions, so she actually doesn't know. DD knows. A "spy" listening in on the conversation in the Hogshead pub knows part of it. Voldie knows part. I think that Sirius didn't know the prophecy, as he told Harry to grab it and run in OotP. If he knew what was in it, he wouldn't have bothered. So possibly only Harry and DD know all of the prophecy. I've got to say something here, off-topic: Dumbledore should talk to McGonagall more. He's a bad communicator with her. She didn't know about giving Harry to the Dursleys, or that the Potters were really dead, or (apparently) anything about the Prophecy ... tsk, tsk. Dumbledore, shame on you. :) --Rebecca Trishel From trishel2 at hotmail.com Fri Jul 23 07:19:48 2004 From: trishel2 at hotmail.com (rebeccatrishel) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:19:48 -0000 Subject: "Gran" -- Whose Mother? (Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 23) In-Reply-To: <96773c8804072213512722c66f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107379 > James: > Is Gran Fank's mother or Alice's mother? I can't seem to remember > where (or if) this was actually mentioned, if someone would be so > kind as to give me a quote. For some reason I had always assumed > that Alice was her daughter. Her name is Mrs. Longbottom, so she must be Frank's mother. --Rebecca Trishel From mhbobbin at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 07:23:29 2004 From: mhbobbin at yahoo.com (mhbobbin) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:23:29 -0000 Subject: James, the Head Boy, but not a Prefect Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107380 Angie: >> Hagrid told Harry in SS that James was Head Boy and Lily was Head Girl. But in OOP, we find out that James was not a Prefect; in fact, Harry is comforted by the thought. I would think you couldn't be Head Boy unless you were a Prefect first. But I guess DD can do whatever he likes! << mhbobbin writes: Although we don't know the details of the Prefect system, this information implies that something happened to the person in the same year who had been a Prefect. Lupin was appointed Prefect in the fifth year of Hogwarts. We also know that Lupin believed he was made Prefect in order to control his friends--James and Sirius--and by his own admission, failed. We certainly witness him failing in the Penseive scene. James is appointed Head Boy in the 7th year, and starts dating Lily who has been made Head Girl. James must have changed somewhat from his bullying behavior seen in the Penseive scene in year 5. We also know that the much-discussed Whomping Willow incident happened in Year 6. Following that incident did Lupin resign in order to spare DD embarrassment, much like he does in PoA? Was Head Boy designation awarded to James because of he saved Snape? We don't yet know enough about the WW incident but it may have been the defining moment in James' Hogwarts experience. JKR has indicated we going to learn more about it. mhbobbin From trishel2 at hotmail.com Fri Jul 23 07:24:54 2004 From: trishel2 at hotmail.com (rebeccatrishel) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:24:54 -0000 Subject: Ginny and the entrancing Veil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107381 > dcgmck wrote: > > Still, I don't think the memory of Riddle knew any more of what his > future self had done than what Ginny told him in the diary before > Harry started communicating with him. Of course, then Riddle > possessed Ginny again... OK. But Harry knew even less than Ginny > did in his second year at Hogwarts. OK, I'm confused again. How > would the memory have learned enough to contaminate Ginny, unless > it was outside of the visible narrative line while at the Malfoy > estate? Well, if Tom used the simplest, wand-based way to enchant Ginny, then I do believe the 16-year-old Voldemort could have learned the Imperius Curse. But Ginny says she was "possessed." Still, Tom could have learned this, and thus his "memory" remember it. The memory Riddle seems to state that he knew nothing about his future until Ginny told him. ("She told me all about you ... how you escaped when only a baby ...") So it seems that Riddle never left sleep mode while at the Malfoy's. And somehow I don't think Lucius would want to talk with him. --Rebecca Trishel From trishel2 at hotmail.com Fri Jul 23 07:28:23 2004 From: trishel2 at hotmail.com (rebeccatrishel) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:28:23 -0000 Subject: Doesn't Voldemort know about Snape's loyalty? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107382 > ariston wonders: > I'm not at all sure that Snape *has* wormed his way back into > Voldy's good graces. The best indication that he didn't is the fact that Harry guesses he might've. I mean, c'mon, Harry is usually wrong at this stage in a mystery. I firmly believe Voldemort isn't stupid enough to take Snape back, Snape isn't stupid enough to go back, and that Dumbledore isn't stupid enough to send him. I could be completely wrong, though ... it's all speculation. --Rebecca Trishel From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Fri Jul 23 07:45:16 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:45:16 -0000 Subject: Attack on Hogwarts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107383 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mrs_sonofgib" wrote: > Angie wrote: > > What's the likelihood of an attack on Hogwarts in Book 6 or 7? > > > I am absolutely expecting an attack on Hogwarts (and mentioned it > here a few days ago :-) ). There are many tricky references. > ~tina Valky: I have a strong enough suspicion that Hogwarts will be attacked. And I even have a theory as to where. Come to think of it its even probably where Peter has been all this time. The passage behind the mirror on the fourth floor that leads right into Hogsmeade. Usable until the Winter of COS: The winter season in COS directly follows Ginny's possession by Voldemort. The text about Winter appears to kick off in COS with the beginning of chapter 11 'the Duelling Club' In the prior chapter 'The Rogue Bludger' Colin Creevey is pertified on his way upstairs, supposed by MacGonagall to be sneaking up to the hospital wing to see Harry. Now heres where it gets tricky and only Potterania experts who have deduced the whereabouts of certain Hogwarts rooms will be able to fully confirm. Dumbledore is travelling downstairs, presumably to the kitchens which we see in GOF to be one floor above the Entrance Hall. Creevey is presumed , probably accurately, to be travelling up the stairs to the hospital wing and met the Basilisk coming down them. Now its fitting that if Ginny!Riddle was on the fourth floor putting a magic seal on the tunnel to Hogsmeade then turned to walk back down to the Myrtles bathroom located on the second floor. (you have to read several passages in COS to get this information) that someone coming from the Entrance Hall and up the stairs to the Hospital wing *might* have passed them, and that Dumbledore coming down the stairs some flights behind them could have missed it all by just a hairs breadth of a second. This all happened at the beginning of winter in the year of COS, which is when Fred and Gerge claim the tunnel became sealed. Riddle has his very own way into Hogwarts! And I recall a conversation with Sirius, which I can't find right now but I recall it fairly well, implies that the Marauders were quite familiar with the location and secrets of this tunnel. So likewise, Peter is the obvious choice for a servant to be instigating preparations for a Hogwarts attack through that tunnel. That is my bit of input there. Best to all Valky From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 07:46:33 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:46:33 -0000 Subject: Apparate into Hogwarts? (was Re: Attack on Hogwarts?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107384 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ariston3344" wrote: > Angie wrote: > > I don't believe you can't Apparate into and out of the school just > > because it says so in "Hogwarts, A History." > > > ariston: > Yes, indeed, constant vigilance! You can't trust everything you > read. :-) > > But personally, I think that the *real* reason it's impossible to > apparate within Hogwarts is because if you could, that would render > the barriers to getting the PS in book 1 superfluous. ...edited... > > > This is pure speculation -- maybe JKR intended to include both > apparition in general and its impossibility withing Hogwarts all > along. But still, I believe it's really true that you can't > apparate within the Hogwarts grounds. ....edited.. > > -ariston asian_lovr2: Is it really that critical that you can't Apparate within Hogwart's grounds, when it seem you CAN Apparate right outside the front gate. The only delay that causes is the time it takes to run up the driveway. Although, if you were a smart Death Eater, you could Apparate outside the front gate with your broom and fly up the driveway. Or you could enter through one of the many not-so-secret tunnels. Or all of them at once for that matter. Speaking of brooms, can anyone speculate on the nature and extent of the protection against invasion by broomstick? If you attacked and held the town, could you use that as a bargaining chip to get Dumbledore to surrender the castle? I believe absolutely there will be an attack against the castle, perhaps in a situation when for some reason Dumbledore and other primary protectors are gone, and Harry and the students must defend the castle themselves. Although, as usual /help/ will arrive at the last minute. Just a few thoughts. Steve/asian_lovr2 From mhbobbin at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 07:44:59 2004 From: mhbobbin at yahoo.com (mhbobbin) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:44:59 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Fear of Dumbledore Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107385 Angie wrote: >> I the general consensus is that LV feared DD, but I don't see this in his encounter with DD in OOP. I can't imagine LV admitting any type of fear or weakness to anyone, so how do we know LV feared DD? I know Hermione stated this and I presume it is common knowledge, but again, the question is why. << mhbobbin: In the Ministry of Magic battle, Bellatrix says to LV, when he appears near the fountain, "He is here. He is below" (Chapter 36, scholastic page 812). While LV continues in his purpose, and has the battle with Harry and DD, Bellatrix apparently confirms to us that she believes that LV should be concerned that DD was at the MoM. It's hard to imagine anyone else she could be referring to in that line, in that context. mhbobbin From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Fri Jul 23 08:19:05 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 04:19:05 -0400 Subject: An etymology for Kreacher Message-ID: <001a01c4708d$b912c050$61c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 107386 Carol adds: "I think the reader (even a very young reader) is supposed to catch--and react to--the name Kreacher, which certainly does suggest "creature" in the sense of a lesser (or at any rate, nonhuman) being (in our world, usually an animal). Think of the implications of giving him that name and its effect on his view of himself as he realized its meaning." DuffyPoo now: I am far from young and never considered this once reading the book (which I have probably, by now, read 10 times or more) until I saw the posts here. I presumed, obviously incorrectly, that Kreacher's House-elf parents would have named him and that it meant something to them. (Not unlike Samwise Gamgee's parents naming him "Samwise" meaning "Halfwise".) I can't imagine, say, Malfoy naming Dobby as it appears entirely to cuddly-cute when I think Malfoy would be more inclined to something like "Hey-You." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Fri Jul 23 08:28:12 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 04:28:12 -0400 Subject: Voldemort and the Prophesy --OOP Message-ID: <002301c4708e$fe584080$61c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 107387 Angie (I think) said: > Are we to assume that DD is the only person besides Trelawney who > knows the entire prophecy? Kacie0223 said "I suspect that they may be or possibly DD has filled in key members of the order. " DuffyPoo now: I don't think DD has told anyone else the prophecy. Trelawney has been at the school, hired against DD's own conviction that he should discontinue teaching Divination at Hogwarts, and thoroughly unconvinced that Trelawney would be any good as a teacher -- until the prophecy. She's been at Hogwarts, *living* at Hogwarts not just teaching there ("Hogwarts is my home" - OotP Seen and Unforseen). My opinion is that DD has her there for her own protection. Whether or not she remembers making the prophecy (she didn't seem to when she made the prophecy Harry heard) I have no doubt that LV could *magic* it out of her. I think giving the information contained in the prophecy would put others at similar risk. I'm sure members of the Order, perhaps close associates of DD know that there IS a prophecy about HP/LV but not it's contents. DD knows it, ST sort of *knows* it, LV knows part of it, and now HP knows it. It will be interesting to see how they prevent LV learning it now that it is in HP's head. Perhaps he'll be more inclined to learn Occlumency know that he's seen what can happen by not guarding his mind. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From patientx3 at aol.com Fri Jul 23 08:30:39 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:30:39 -0000 Subject: Quick question re: Lupin's resignation . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107388 Tooks wrote: >> Concerning Snape's "outing" of Lupin, I don't believe it had anything to do with other's safety...well, maybe on a basic level, but I think it had more to do with revenge upon Lupin (and possibly Harry). << HunterGreen: I think revenge was what pushed him to do it, but I doubt he would have gone through with it if he didn't have a way to justify it to Dumbledore later. >> I disagree that what occured that night in the Shrieking Shack would ever happen again. The circumstances under which Lupin forgot to take his potion (the only tim ehe forgot that year) were extreme - he was concerned for the children's safety and most likely highly confused to see Wormtail on the map. << You never know. A lot of dangerous things happen in Hogwarts, and there could be another time when he'd be shocked enough by something to take off and not take it again. His condition is so extreme that even ONE mistake is not excuseable, no matter the circumstances. Remember, he is *reminded* about it by Snape in the shrieking shack, yet he still leaves that night. He could have stayed behind (that was the purpose the shack in the first place), and waited out the tranformation until the next morning, but he doesn't. He forgets *again*. Yes, I know that no one else remembers, but those others are three kids and Sirius who was quite emotionally unstable at that point (and you could make an argument that Sirius doesn't take the werewolf thing as seriously as he should in the first place). It was *Lupin's* responsibility to remember. He's been a werewolf for about 30 years by this point, that's about 360 transformations, it shouldn't be something that should 'slip his mind'. He could have killed Harry, Ron, Hermione, Sirius, Snape, or Peter that night or turned one of them into a werewolf. Don't get me wrong, I understand the reason he forgot, and it is unfair that one mistake should be counted against him, but the circumstances demand it. As Pippin pointed out, why hadn't he taken it yet? It was dusk on the *night of* a full moon, it was only a matter of hours before he had to transform. He was certainly putting off taking it. >> I think his resignation may have occured even if snape hadn't let his "condition" slip. I get the feeling that no one was more ashamed and horrified that he forgot his potion than Lupin himself. Snape's 'outing" just made the fact that Lupin had to resign an official decree. << I'm not sure about it. When Harry questions his resignation, his first answer is not "Harry, I forgot to take my potion.", but rather the reactions/concerns of parents after they find out about him. I do agree that he feels rather horrible about what happened, but I don't know if he would have quit if Snape hadn't 'outed' him. He might have, but he might have not. From trishel2 at hotmail.com Fri Jul 23 07:51:44 2004 From: trishel2 at hotmail.com (rebeccatrishel) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:51:44 -0000 Subject: Apparate into Hogwarts? (was Re: Attack on Hogwarts?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107389 Steve/asianlovr2 wrote: > Is it really that critical that you can't Apparate within Hogwart's > grounds, when it seem you CAN Apparate right outside the front gate. > The only delay that causes is the time it takes to run up the > driveway. Although, if you were a smart Death Eater, you could > Apparate outside the front gate with your broom and fly up the > driveway. Or you could enter through one of the many not-so-secret > tunnels. Or all of them at once for that matter. I get the impression that you can't Apparate to Hogsmeade Village, or the Hogwarts gate, or else people like Lupin wouldn't've taken the train to Hogwarts. Maybe it's impossible to Apparate to an unplottable place (and if Hogwarts is unplottable, Hogsmeade must be unplottable too). The "you can't Apparate into Hogswarts grounds" is a really important HP rule that has been followed in all the books. Two exceptions: Dobby apparates, and so does the Knight Bus, as I remember. Maybe Hogwarts will be attacked by apparating house-elves in buses. --Rebecca Trishel From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Fri Jul 23 08:57:43 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 23 Jul 2004 08:57:43 -0000 Subject: Snape the Pointer and Prophesy Message-ID: <20040723085743.1863.qmail@webmail10.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107390 - --Erin - I know I haven't said all of this very well; I'm so excited about it - that I'm sort of rushing into posting. I plan to refine it a lot - more based on the feedback that I hope it will get. - But I will say this; if you want to know what's going on the very - first time you read the sixth book, all you have to do is watch - Snape. Amey: Really a great theory. May I suggest one or two changes? For one, I think if Snape is talking to any *adult*, he is important at the end of the book, or in some way important. He is not a person who indulges in small talk. (I said adult because that will take care of his talking to trio, Draco and Neville etc). Second thing, about Filch. I think he is important because of his extensive knowledge of castle (maybe second only to twins and Dumbledore presently). He is the key if anybody wants to attack or defend Hogwarts. The way he is depicted, if somebody tells him that he will have full permission to do anything to students, he will help that person, like he helped Umbridge. Wonder what is with Mrs. Norris anyways? - Angie replies: - Good food for thought. But I thought that Voldemort thought he had - heard the entire prophecy. When did he find out that there was more - than he had originally heard? And wasn't it member(s) of the Order - who referred to the prophecy as a weapon? Are we to assume that DD - is the only person besides Trelawney who knows the entire prophecy? Amey: Given prophesy in PoA, I think only Dumbledore (not even Trelawney) and whoever told by him know about the whole prophesy. I think whatever he showed Harry was full prophesy, and he filled in the Order members (important ones at least). - --Cory - One complication would be getting him the information in a form that - would convince him; we know that he "always" knows when he is being - lied to, so the person feeding him the information would have to - either believe it to be true themselves, or be very proficient at - occlumency. Amey: Wonder why this all sounds like *Snape*???? Amey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From trishel2 at hotmail.com Fri Jul 23 08:38:11 2004 From: trishel2 at hotmail.com (rebeccatrishel) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:38:11 -0000 Subject: Trelawney (was: Re: Voldemort and the Prophesy --OOP) In-Reply-To: <002301c4708e$fe584080$61c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107391 > DuffyPoo wrote: > > Trelawney has been at the school, hired against DD's own conviction that he should discontinue teaching Divination at Hogwarts, and thoroughly unconvinced that Trelawney would be any good as a teacher -- until the prophecy. She's been at Hogwarts, *living* at Hogwarts not just teaching there ("Hogwarts is my home" - OotP Seen and Unforseen). My opinion is that DD has her there for her own protection. < Rebecca Trishel now: I always got the impression that Dumbledore wants Trelawney to stick around in case she makes another prediction (like she did in PoA). As for her protection, I don't know that LV knows who made the prophecy. I guess the "spy" at Hogshead might recognize her. Otherwise, Trelawney is pretty safe, especially given her reputation as a failed fortune-teller. --Rebecca Trishel From patientx3 at aol.com Fri Jul 23 08:59:09 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:59:09 -0000 Subject: Something wrong with this Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107392 Matt wrote: >> Well, if you are just trying to say Fudge is walking the gray line, it may be that we agree more than we disagree. Certainly, I agree that he is calculating, corrupt and unprincipled. He makes no effort to combat the WW's prejudices, whether or not he agrees with them. But I thought you were going farther than that -- in your first post you implied that Fudge was consciously trying to put Harry at risk of being killed in PA; you have called him "evil" and said you think he sympathizes with Voldemort's aims. Do you mean that he *wants* Voldemort to return to power? I think he surely does not -- Fudge knows that a powerful Voldemort = a new Minister of Magic. << HunterGreen: I don't know if I really said "evil", but yes he does sympathize with with Voldemort's aims. That does imply that he wouldn't mind if Voldemort returned to power and destroyed either the non-purebloods themselves or the system that allows them to be equal to purebloods. I don't know if Voldemort would take over the position of MoM, he'd probably want a higher position than that. Fudge may be trying to work for him, hoping that he'll come to power and then reward Fudge by allowing him to stay in a position of power (meaning that Voldemort might see some use in the MoM postion still existing, just under whatever position he sees himself attaining). >> Do you really think he has ever wished Harry dead, as opposed to discredited? Again, I think not. << Why would he want to 'discredit' Harry in PoA? I don't know if it was actually Fudge who wanted Harry dead in PoA, he's just the most likely suspect. My point was that *someone* wanted Harry dead in PoA, and was trying to use the dementers to do it for them, and may have let (as in, assisted with the escape of from behind the scenes) Sirius Black out of prison to both have a reason to send the dementors to Hogwarts, and in hopes that *Sirius* would kill Harry. Fudge would be the most likely person to have done this. (of the reasons I can think of, the first one is that he's one of the few people we've seen who appear comfortable with dementors). >> Even by OP, when Fudge was becoming desperate, his only goal according to Umbridge was to "silence" Harry by discrediting him (OP ch. 32). It was Umbridge who was willing to resort to illegal methods ("What Cornelius doesn't know won't hurt him") such as orchestrating the dementor attack (id.). << Well, he's certainly not stupid enough to do something that public. Umbridge is banking on the corruption of her own government to not investigate the matter completely, and they didn't. I don't know if she told the dementors to use the Kiss or if they did it on their own, she may have just intended to get Harry to do magic. Fudge, if he was planning on killing Harry, would do something more discreet (or less obvious pointing toward some sort of corruption). Two dementors murdering Harry in the middle of a muggle street points to *someone* being involved, but a dangerous criminal killing Harry is the criminal's fault, and a dementor going too far and killing Harry when it was supposed to be guarding him, is the dementor's fault.(in the case of the dementors walking down the street in OotP it can't just be the dementor's fault, because there's still the question of why the heck they were there in the first place). I'm guessing that Umbridge didn't tell them to use the Kiss, only because it would make things worse for her. If Harry uses magic to drive them off, and they disappear without harming him, there's no proof that he was in danger (which was their case), if the dementor kills him, Harry is 'dead', but it causes A LOT of negative press to the government. >>I agree that Fudge is some shade of gray, but, again, I don't think he is Evil. I don't think he is prepared to ally himself with Voldemort. And the fact that I'm arguing based on theme and principle rather than some anecdotal "clue" doesn't make my argument rhetorical.<< Ancedotal? What is 'ancedotal' about the dementer swooping in on Barty Jr. without cause and performing the kiss the moment it walked into the door? I'd say that's pretty damn suspicious. Dementers concentrating on *Harry* on three different occasions for no clear reason in PoA is ancedotal? Fudge choosing *not* to tell Harry that a dangerous murderer is planning on killing him is ancedotal? IMO, arguing on your perception of theme and principal without specific examples from the text is rhetorical. If you don't agree, that's fine, but please give something besides outside examples of what the author is trying to say as your argument. From quigonginger at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 08:59:12 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:59:12 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Fear of Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107393 Angie wrote: > I the general consensus is that LV feared DD, but I don't see this in > his encounter with DD in OOP. I can't imagine LV admitting any type > of fear or weakness to anyone, so how do we know LV feared DD? I know > Hermione stated this and I presume it is common knowledge, but again, > the question is why. Ginger, who admits to having a mental lapse, responds: I don't remember where Hermione says it, although I have a vague memory of her saying it. I do remember McGonagall telling Dumbledore in the first chapter of the first book that "Everyone knows that you're the only one You-Know- oh, all right, Voldemort was frightened of." Dumbledore responds by saying that Voldemort has powers he (DD) will never have. McG counters that DD is too noble to use them. Is it the powers that DD has, but is too noble to use that frighten LV? Perhaps he doubts that DD's nobility will extend past a certain point, after which he (LV) is toast. The scene in which they were together in OoP wasn't a planned meeting by LV. He had only shown up to patch up his underlings' muffle as best as possible. He really had no choice but to fight DD, fear or no fear. So at least we know *everyone* knows that LV fears DD. McG said so. Of course, that may have been a generalization. She is usually precise, yet she ended the sentance with a preposition, so maybe she was flustered. We'll give her the benefit of the doubt on that one. Ginger, who would be afraid of DD too, were she an evil overlordish type of person. From dolis5657 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 02:22:27 2004 From: dolis5657 at yahoo.com (dcgmck) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 02:22:27 -0000 Subject: Resolving "In Essence Divided" With The Prophecy In-Reply-To: <7e.53e7bcf4.2e31cea4@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107394 entropymail at y... writes: > >b)Similarly, Harry has lived most of his life "hosting" much of > >Voldemort's spirit; as a half-Harry/half-Voldie being. Batchevra at a... wrote: > Harry has at different times thought of Neville as replacing him: > on the Quidditch team in his dream in POA, telling the Stan Shunpike > of the Knight Bus that he was Neville. Knowing the bond between > Voldemort and Harry, I was thinking that Voldemort was influencing > Harry into thinking of Neville. That would support the idea > that Bellatrix and the other DEs went to the Longbottoms because > Voldemort was talking and plotting against Harry and Neville at the > same time. dcgmck: Hm... tangentially, I like the suggestion that Neville and Harry form a two-pronged threat to Voldemort, whereas Voldemort has separated himself from the Tom Riddle portion of his humanity, then split himself again in leaving a portion (if not an equal half) of his LV essense with the infant Harry. By this logic, LV is getting to be a real "house divided" essentially... From dolis5657 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 19:40:31 2004 From: dolis5657 at yahoo.com (dcgmck) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:40:31 -0000 Subject: Something wrong with this Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107395 > HunterGreen: > > Evidence for an ESE!Fudge is ridiculously easy to put together. > Matt added: > > I'm not so sure about Fudge as evil; I see him more as the > > quintessential bureaucrat, who values process (or the appearance > > thereof), preservation of the status quo, and above all retaining > > his position of authority, while discounting principles and > > anything that makes his job more difficult than it needs to be. > SSSusan now: > All those things you've said, Matt, do seem to perfectly describe > Fudge. On the other hand, does anybody else think it's just > possible that JKR might be *deliberately* getting us to focus > on "misguided, bumbling, quintessential bureaucrat Fudge" so that > we don't seriously consider the possibility of his being ESE! > and "behind it all"?? > Maybe Fudge isn't ESE! for the reasons often put forth [power-hungry > MoM in at least partial alignment w/ DE goals & values] but because > he's truly orchestrated all these things all along, from behind the > scenes, to help Voldy return. dcgmck: Everyone is making persuasive arguments, but as an American living under GWB in these curious times and one who has worked with and under a variety of bureaucrats and administrators, I am inclined to think that JKR has had more than enough of her own experiences with bureaucracy to be sincere in her desire to demonstrate that evil is not always intentional, that willful ignorance and stupidity can just as dangerous if not even more damaging than the best-laid plans of villains. Fudge may, indeed, prove to be Machiavellian, but I'm more inclined to think he's more like GW, our fearless U.S. president, and therefore more dangerous. It's just not possible to be so prescient as to plan some of the things that can go wrong with unhealthy doses of pro-active paranoia and stupidity. If one takes the canon at face value, my assertion is borne out. Of course, reading between the lines yields the opposite understanding. Huh... From tinainfay at msn.com Thu Jul 22 20:20:47 2004 From: tinainfay at msn.com (mrs_sonofgib) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 20:20:47 -0000 Subject: Ginny and the entrancing Veil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107396 Rowan Sjet wrote: > In the scene where we are introduced to the Veil in the > Department of Mysteries(pg. 682, OotP UK edition), there are > several points where the author notes that some people are > 'mesmerised' by the veil, and can hear whispering voices. > However, I was most intrigued by this quote (pg 683, OotP uk > edition): > > "...Ginny and Neville were staring, apparently entranced, at the > veil too." > > What interests me about this quote is that Ginny is affected. > A member of a Harry Potter Forum I visited ... postulated that it > was because of her near death experience at the hands of Tom Riddle. > I am unconvinced as it is a very different cause than the others > have for the attraction to the veil but it is a possibility. Similarly, Ginny is very effected by the Dementor's on the train in PoA: "Ginny, who was huddled in her corner looking nearly as bad as Harry felt, gave a small sob; Hermione went over and put a comforting arm around her. 'But didn't any of you - fall off your seats?' said Harry awkwardly. 'No,' said Ron, looking anxiously at Harry again. 'Ginny was shaking like mad, though....'" I do suspect that it is because of her encounter with Riddle. ~tina From hfleming8 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 22 20:51:38 2004 From: hfleming8 at yahoo.com (hfleming8) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 20:51:38 -0000 Subject: Ginny and the entrancing Veil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107397 Rowan wrote: > (pg 683, OotP uk edition): > "...Ginny and Neville were staring, apparently entranced, at the > veil too." > What interests me about this quote is that Ginny is affected. > A member of a Harry Potter Forum I visited postulated that it > was because of her near death experience at the hands of Tom > Riddle. I am unconvinced as it is a very different cause than > the others have for the attraction to the veil but it is a > possibility. > Toad: > Sorry to be morbid, but perhaps the veil effects people who have > been *enticed* by the idea of dying. Here's my two cents. Could it be a small revelation of an ability of Ginny's yet to come. Empath, seer...something along those lines. Then she would have to be very in tune to what is happening about her. It might be latent and coming to life in very traumatic situations, i.e. the veil. - Hez From dolis5657 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 01:57:03 2004 From: dolis5657 at yahoo.com (dcgmck) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 01:57:03 -0000 Subject: Voldemort and the Prophecy --OOP / Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107398 > ariston wrote: > he might have been able to use it as bait for > even longer if he had just had someone in the Order tell Harry > even a little of what was going on! At a minimum, "Hey, Harry, > I think Occlumency's a good idea because Voldy might try to trick > you into going to the DoM. Don't go without orders from the > Order." > Cory: > This is very true, and is only one of several reasons why it was > a mistake for Dumbledore not to tell Harry what was going on. > > Having said that, I am still curious to see how (or whether) > Dumbledore will use Voldemort's ignorance of the prophecy against > him in books 6 & 7. dcgmck: Just want to interject here that there seems to be a general assumption of Dumbledore's infallibility that I'd like to question. There's a pretty clear canonical record of his miscalculations with regard to Harry that DD himself enumerates near the end of OotP. He's reminiscent of Gandalf and Merlin that way, actually... Thoughts? From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Jul 23 10:46:34 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:46:34 -0000 Subject: When Harry met Sally (was: Re: Incomplete Prophecy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107399 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > > > > It'll probably boil down to one of DD's choices eventually. > > > SSSusan: > Whoa. Unless there's sarcasm in that thar final sentence, methinks > I detect a change of attitude w/in Kneasy? Could it be that you > believe Harry *will* have choice in the end? I thought I remember > your belief that Harry really *hasn't* had choice--that DD [and > perhaps circumstance?] has been controlling so much that Harry > hasn't been allowed a true choice of his own. [I don't agree, but I > thought that's what I remembered of your view.] > > Okay, wait. There's two ways to take "DD's choices." EITHER "DD's > choices," as in something DD's fond of reminding us are our ultimate > power, OR "DD's choices," as in they're HIS and HE is the one doing > the choosing. So is that precisely your point--that it'll come down > to one more DD string-pull and not a true choice for Harry? Or will > this one finally be Harry's for real? > > Or was it a throw-away phrase and I wasn't supposed to read so much > into it? ;-) > Bit of everything, really. Sarcasm, yes; because I don't believe DD is constitutionally capable of allowing some-one to make up their own mind without interferring. He way he talks about choice reminds me of the way he talks about truth - it's so precious that it must be used sparingly and with discretion, i.e. do it my way. And since all too often in Harry's life and times it's been DD that doles out the information that Harry uses to reach his conclusions the concept of real choice is moot. DD knows what he wants to happen and has probably planned the best way to achieve his goals. Do you really think he'd give up on that because some stroppy teenager had different ideas? It's a continuation of his policy towards Harry from book 1 chap.1. Limit Harry's options. Harry has had no say in any worthwhile decision about his life - probably a good thing, Harry would only have cocked it up, just like the Occlumency fiasco. Harry is DD's instrument; come hell or high water DD will ensure that Harry does what's necessary. Note that DD has strong and influential supporters in Ron and Hermione. They think he's wonderful. Another source of indirect DD pressure on Harry. But there is somebody else whose choice may be critical - Tom Riddle. He's somewhere inside Voldy; a Voldy that DD is most reluctant to kill. I believe that part of DD's plan is to split TR off from the Voldy!Monster if he can, to the confusion and confoundment of the enemy. But this requires that Tom co-operate. A choice is on offer - remain in thrall to an immortal evil for ever or repudiate it and maybe achieve redemption. And perhaps also the only way of getting that Voldy transfer out of Harry. Kneasy From strawberryhope at hotmail.com Fri Jul 23 10:15:00 2004 From: strawberryhope at hotmail.com (Kathryn Randall) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:15:00 +0000 Subject: Doesn't Voldemort know about Snape's loyalty? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107400 I think Snape's ability to return to the fold almost all hinges on Voldemort's perception of himself and his strength, or rather, his power. Personally, I feel that while Voldemort believes himself to be *one* of the most powerful, if not *the* most powerful. And with that power will come an arrogance. The entire Wizarding World [Okay, a generalistation, but most of it, anyway] is hesitant to even speak his name, and Voldemort's power and brutality is something *everyone* in the WW knows about. Now, that really *has* to affect someone, in some way. And in my opinion, the most probably way would be to underestimate those around him. >ariston wonders: >Voldy knows that Pettigrew isn't >really loyal to him... Cat: But at the same time, I don't think that Voldemort believes Pettigrew will really leave him, either. Pettigrew is far too afraid of Voldemort, and not only that, but Dumbledore knows that Pettigrew is on the Dark Side -- and betrayed the Potters. Pettigrew wouldn't be forgiven for that. I don't believe that Snape will have to explain his involvement in PS. There was a lot that went wrong, from Harry coming across the unicorn to Hermione setting Snape's robes on fire, and unless Snape had been shown the Voldemort was in the back of Quirrell's head, he *can* easily claim that he didn't realise that Voldemort was involved. And if Voldemort has the assurance in his power that I believe he does, then Voldemort will underestimate Snape and simply believe Snape bungled; like Lucius Malfoy has done in the past... I think the thing that would truely put Snape in trouble would be the court cases, however, Karkaroff was the one to name Snape [and this is where Snape's loyalties are vouched for], so others may not have heard. It won't stay that way for long, though, if that's true. Voldemort will find out soon what Snape did, and then Snape will have to justify himself, as Ariston says. Cat, [Who has just made her first reply, and is worried it doesn't make sense..] _________________________________________________________________ Find love today with ninemsn personals. Click here: http://ninemsn.match.com?referrer=hotmailtagline From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Fri Jul 23 10:17:07 2004 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:17:07 -0000 Subject: Longbottoms' Secret Keeper Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107401 It seems that the assumption is that Harry's parents were in hiding because of the prophecy. If this is so, then surely the Longbottoms would have been in hiding also. DD states that it was Voldemort who 'marked' Harry, suggesting that up to this point it was not known which child had the 'power to vanquish the Dark Lord'. This poses a few questions: 1. If the Longbottoms were protected, how could the Lestranges have found them? 2. If they were not protected, this suggests that DD knew that Voldemort would choose Harry. Is this because there is something about the Potters that we don't know, that made it obvious it was their child that was important? Or is it that the complete prophecy (because we have clearly not heard the whole prophecy) makes it much clearer who the child is? "esmith222002" From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Fri Jul 23 10:48:41 2004 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:48:41 -0000 Subject: End Game (Was: Re: Resolving "In Essence Divided" With The Prophecy) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107402 This is my theory about how the Harry Potter series will end; Up until GOF, Harry was linked to Voldemort via his scar. This only allowed HArry to feel Voldemort's presence or sometimes his intent. At the end of GOF, Voldemort was reincarnated using Harry's blood. Voldemort is now part Harry, and Harry is part Voldemort. This has strengthened the connection between them, so that they can effectively possess each other's minds i.e. at these times they are effectively one being. OK, at the end of OOTP, Voldemort possesses Harry. 1. Harry can't cope with it and would rather die, but then feels love for Sirius 2. Voldemort can't cope with Harry's love and leaves The point is that it was Voldemort's decision to possess Harry. What if the End Game involves Harry possessing Voldemort! Then it is a fight between Harry's love and Voldemort's evil. DDs look of triumph is therefore explained by the fact that he knows that the link between Harry and Voldemort has been produced - which will be essential if Harry is to defeat Voldemort. Clearly Harry is not ready for the challenge yet! Perhaps he has to come of age before he can attempt this. This also explains the need for Occlumency, to protect Harry until he is ready. Finally, I have always thought that for Harry to be a truly heroic character, he would have to defeat Voldemort without DD's help. Initially, I thought that DD would die at some point. But if it does come down to Harry possessing Voldemort, he will definitely be on his own. "esmith222002" From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 23 11:08:25 2004 From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:08:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Month or Moon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040723110825.98700.qmail@web25308.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107403 udderpd here I have read several Fan fics recently where the OotP Prophesy is quoted as: 'born as the seventh moon dies' as opposed to: 'born as the seventh month dies' Are there books out there that say MOON as opposed to MONTH? I have checked the UK editions (Hardback, Softback and Adult Softback) these all say MONTH. TTFN Udder PenDragon [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Jul 23 11:21:07 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:21:07 -0000 Subject: Attack on Hogwarts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107404 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gelite67" wrote: > I didn't see this in the archives, so here goes? > > What's the likelihood of an attack on Hogwarts in Book 6 or 7? I > know Hogwarts is supposed to be well-protected, but so was > Gringotts. There are a lot of secret ways into the school (maybe > even some that the Weasley twins didn't discover). I don't believe > you can't Apparate into and out of the school just because it says so > in "Hogwarts, A History." That would be precisely what the school > wanted everyone to believe. > > Hagrin told Harry in SS that when LV was recruiting and killing, > Hogwarts was one of the only safe places left, and that LV, "[d]idn't > dare try takin' the school, not just then anyway" apparently because > LV feared DD. > > I can see LV getting desperate enought to do it. Eventually, his > desperation could overcome his fear. It has been considered before and the general consensus is that the chances are high, with different posters putting forward different evidence/arguments. Dumbledore's Army frequently tops most lists - it must have an eventual function in the story arc. Others, myself included, believe that the Chamber of Secrets still has a part to play. It was Salazar's/Tom's/Voldy's cosy little nook in Hogwarts and since its name implies multiple secrets are hidden there we expect it to take centre stage again. Voldy will come back, I think, and it won't be via Myrtle's bathroom. There's more than one entrance, got to be. The Basilisk quite happily toured the pipes in the school even before the Chamber was unsealed by Ginny. All those pipes that Ron and Harry saw when sliding down from the sink opening - they were *outside* the sealed Chamber. So how did the Basilisk access them? Tunnels to Hogsmeade, tunnels here, tunnels there; ideal for an invading force. I'll be quite disappointed if Hogwarts remains unpenetrated and if (when) it is I expect the showdown to happen in the Chamber. Kneasy From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 23 11:22:15 2004 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:22:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: Books 6 & 7 - tragedy or triumph? - rant Message-ID: <20040723112215.73304.qmail@web25101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107405 --- caspenzoe wrote: >>You have some very fascinating ideas Hans. However, I think you are over-applying them.<< My response: Another member said a similar thing - amounting to the proposition that I am seeing more in the book than is actually there, or perhaps intended to be there. Believe me, I've thought about this continuously for the last three years. People around me have also told me I'm putting symbolism into HP that simply isn't there. I've had attacks of doubt and have started my thinking again from scratch, but always I come back to the one and only one conclusion I reach every time: Harry Potter is one of the great calls from the free universe to the people imprisoned in this madhouse to go Path of Alchemy to reach total liberation. My life at the moment is filled with tingling excitement and I feel like someone who's just won the lottery but can't believe it's true. I've made this earth-shattering discovery and (most) people won't believe me. I would like to ask permission to try to explain why I'm so sure. It's extremely difficult but I'll try. Just imagine a place you often visit; say, a large house with many rooms and a huge garden with paths everywhere, a pond, bowers, sheds, etc. You have visited this place so often you can walk through there blindfolded. Then one day you go to another country far away. A local resident invites you to visit his house. You go there with a totally open mind. Nothing about the look of the place is familiar. The architecture is unfamiliar, the contents of the house are all alien, the garden has tropical plants, and nothing is recognisable. You walk through the place with very little real interest. Then all of a sudden something hits you. As you walk, you are thunderstruck by a powerful thought: you know what's at the end of that passage! There's a slight dog leg and then a there's a toilet on the left. Yes! The toilet also has a door on the other side, which takes you into the garden! "I know another house which has that", you think. Just a coincidence of course. You walk through and go into the garden. You walk into a hedge and turn right. 10 meters on is a gap. You turn left - it's a maze! Goosebumps appear and your spine tingles. That other place also has a maze in the same place. And so you walk on through the garden and the house. Your goosebumps begin to overwhelm you with a feeling of the ultimate creeps. You shut your eyes and walk on. You turn right somewhere and when you open your eyes you are exactly where you thought you you would be. You start running. You almost panic. This is impossible! But you know you can't deny it. This property was built by the same architect, although you are on the other side of the world and the house was built four centuries later. Some of you will no doubt think I'm deluded or plain crazy, but all I can do is tell you as honestly as possible that Harry Potter is a matter of recognition. I have seen only 5 sevenths of the property, but why should the remaining 2 sevenths be any different? In April last year I predicted what was to happen after book 4. I told you about Harry becoming a great leader. To my own amazement on June 21 I read the chapter about Dumbledore's Army. I told you about the Gate of Saturn. There it was as the arch with the veil. I told you Harry's mental ego would be liberated. And there it was: despite failing occlumency Harry freed his mind from Voldemort. John Granger wrote to me recently telling me he envied my prescience. Well I hasten to tell you all: I have no gift which anyone should envy. There's nothing clever involved here. It's very simple: RECOGNITION. It's just that I'm extremely familiar with the teachings of liberation from the past and Harry Potter so far is IDENTICAL to those teachings. If any of you had studied these teachings so you could follow them with your eyes shut you too would recognise. It's possible that I will be proven wrong in books 6 & 7. But then it's possible that tomorrow E will not equal mc squared. Or that the apple will not fall down. Just because nature's laws have never changed over the last billion years that's no guarantee it won't happen tomorrow. Sorry about this rant, but I just HAD to explain my discovery. If the moderators send me to Azkaban, good bye. Hans in Holland ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Fri Jul 23 11:25:28 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:25:28 -0000 Subject: When Harry met Sally (was: Re: Incomplete Prophecy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107406 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > > But there is somebody else whose choice may be critical - Tom Riddle. > He's somewhere inside Voldy; a Voldy that DD is most reluctant to kill. > I believe that part of DD's plan is to split TR off from the Voldy! Monster > if he can, to the confusion and confoundment of the enemy. But this > requires that Tom co-operate. A choice is on offer - remain in thrall to > an immortal evil for ever or repudiate it and maybe achieve redemption. > And perhaps also the only way of getting that Voldy transfer out of Harry. > > Kneasy Ah, but there is another way to capture Supreme Evil Beings (or SEBs in the jargon), call in SO-17: 'A vacuum cleaner won't hold me!' sneered the voice again. ' Do you really believe that I can be trapped in a bag like so much dust?' ....unlike conventional vacuum cleaners, this one works on a dual cyclone principle that traps dust and evil spirits by a powerful centrifugal force... Spike deftly placed the lid on the jar and detached it from the machine. He held it up and there inside was a very pissed-off spirit of the Evil One - well and truly trapped. Spike..you..you..you... B**D! said the small voice from inside the jar, 'You'll suffer the worst torments in hell for this.' It wouldn't surprise me at all if DD is in touch with SpecOps. We should keep a sharp look out for Thursday Next ducking out of sight at Hogwarts. Carolyn Who fell into a prose portal long ago.. From cincimaelder at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 11:05:03 2004 From: cincimaelder at yahoo.com (cincimaelder) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:05:03 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Fear of Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107407 Angie wrote: > > I the general consensus is that LV feared DD, but I don't see this > > in his encounter with DD in OOP. I can't imagine LV admitting any > > type of fear or weakness to anyone, so how do we know LV feared > > DD? I know Hermione stated this and I presume it is common > > knowledge, but again, the question is why. I think just as DD doesn't show LV he fears him (although at one point Harry sees a worried look he had never seen on DD before), LV isn't going to show DD he fears him. Even though DD is very powerful, LV isn't going to stand there shaking in his boots. What I'm trying to say is that I think he does fear DD, he just isn't going to show DD that during battle. MAE From pcaehill2 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 23 11:26:55 2004 From: pcaehill2 at sbcglobal.net (pcaehill2) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:26:55 -0000 Subject: Apparate into Hogwarts? (was Re: Attack on Hogwarts?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107408 Rebecca wrote: > I get the impression that you can't Apparate to Hogsmeade Village, > or the Hogwarts gate, or else people like Lupin wouldn't've taken > the train to Hogwarts. Maybe it's impossible to Apparate to an > unplottable place (and if Hogwarts is unplottable, Hogsmeade must > be unplottable too). The "you can't Apparate into Hogswarts > grounds" isa really important HP rule that has been followed in > all the books. >Two exceptions: Dobby apparates, and so does the Knight Bus, as I > remember. Maybe Hogwarts will be attacked by apparating house- > elves in buses. Pam queries: This is tangentially related, but I have questions about consistency in the canon re: use of apparition: In OOTP, Dumbledore says that he put an "anti-apparition" or some such block on the Death Mystery room (those rooms & all those doors always remind me of the "Mystery Date" game)--BUT, Bellatrix *runs* out of the room, and *takes an elevator* to the main hall. Why couldn't she just apparate to the main hall? OR if DD had already placed the block on the Mystery room, why not apparate once she was out of the room? Is is because she somehow knew that Harry would follow her? But how could she know that? From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 23 11:43:53 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:43:53 -0000 Subject: Not Vapormort Re: Dumbledore knows In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107409 "snow15145" wrote: [snip] > SS chap. The Man with Two Faces pg. > 293 "See what I have become?" the face said. "Mere shadow and vapor > I have form only when I can share another's body but there have > always been those willing to let me into their hearts and minds " > Those? Must have happened many times before. I reckon he is referring either to all those snakes and other animals who (literally) allowed them to possess him, or to those human beings who have allowed such possession in a rather more figurative way. He refers to having raken up residence in a great many different animals while waiting for some poor sod like Quirrell to turn up; he even comments that some were more suitable than others. He also had a great many followers in VW1, outnumbering the OOP "twenty to one" by one estimate. HTH HAND -- Phil From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jul 23 11:44:30 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:44:30 -0000 Subject: Doesn't Voldemort know about Snape's loyalty? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107410 - > > Angie (still wondering): > Does this beg the question of why LV didn't try to use Snape to get > the Stone if Snape was working for LV? Potioncat: By the same token, LV didn't contact any of the former DEs. He could very easily gone to Malfoy Manor and revealed himself. I don't think he trusted any of them at that point. It did give him a good opportunity to observe Snape. And that may be why he thinks "one has left me forever." But Snape did appear to be going behind DD's back. Of course, maybe he was going behind DD's back. Perhaps with the stone he wouldn't have needed DD's support anymore. Potioncat From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 23 11:46:15 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:46:15 -0000 Subject: Something wrong with this Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107411 Erinellii: > I am willing to entertain the notion that Fudge is evil simply > because *Snape has talked to him*. See my earlier post: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/107298 > > Hey, no one's commented on it yet, so here I am, reduced to butting > in on other people's discussions :-) SSSusan: LOL! I'll take support any way I can get it, Erin. I can't *believe* no one's commented on your post, as it's a truly fascinating theory [as I told you over on that other little list]. For those who haven't read it, the gist of it is that *anyone* with whom Snape has had a significant discourse [in terms of length] turns out to be either one who's a DE, a suspected DE, a traitor to DD, or a suspected traitor to DD. And with the PoA post-capture of Black scene, we've got Snape conversing with Fudge! :-) Come on, folks, go take a peek! Siriusly Snapey Susan From meriaugust at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 12:00:18 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:00:18 -0000 Subject: Longbottoms' Secret Keeper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107412 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "esmith222002" wrote: > It seems that the assumption is that Harry's parents were in hiding > because of the prophecy. If this is so, then surely the Longbottoms > would have been in hiding also. DD states that it was Voldemort > who 'marked' Harry, suggesting that up to this point it was not known > which child had the 'power to vanquish the Dark Lord'. This poses a > few questions: > 1. If the Longbottoms were protected, how could the Lestranges have > found them? Meri now: The Longbottoms weren't attacked till well after the Potters were killed. According to DD that was one of the reasons that people were so angry about the attacks. LV had fallen at this point, families were coming out of hiding, and people thought they were safe for the first time in ten years. IMHO it would be easy for Crouch and the LeStranges to find the Longbottoms at this point (WW yellow pages, anyone?). I would also assume that they were protected by Fidelius, but as to where they hid and who their secret keeper was we can only speculate till you know who lets us know. Meri From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Jul 23 12:02:11 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:02:11 -0000 Subject: When Harry met Sally (was: Re: Incomplete Prophecy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107413 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: > > Ah, but there is another way to capture Supreme Evil Beings (or SEBs > in the jargon), call in SO-17: > 'A vacuum cleaner won't hold me!' sneered the voice again. ' Do you > really believe that I can be trapped in a bag like so much dust?' > > ....unlike conventional vacuum cleaners, this one works on a dual > cyclone principle that traps dust and evil spirits by a powerful > centrifugal force... > > Spike deftly placed the lid on the jar and detached it from the > machine. He held it up and there inside was a very pissed-off spirit > of the Evil One - well and truly trapped. > > Spike..you..you..you... B**D! said the small voice from inside the > jar, 'You'll suffer the worst torments in hell for this.' > > It wouldn't surprise me at all if DD is in touch with SpecOps. We > should keep a sharp look out for Thursday Next ducking out of sight > at Hogwarts. > > Carolyn > Who fell into a prose portal long ago. Hmm. Various parallels spring to mind if you accept that the story is told from Hermione's perspective: Hermione - Thursday Next Harry - Landen Park-Laine Ron - Joffy Minerva - Miss Haversham Snape - Jack Schitt Voldy - Acheron Hades DD - Mycroft Lupin - Spike (who also forgets to take his medicine) Fudge - Victor Analogy Malfoy - Felix8 Sirius - Mr Delamare Kneasy Who would love to see Dick the Shit at the Swindon Ritz. From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jul 23 12:02:45 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:02:45 -0000 Subject: Snape and the DADA job In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20040723141017.0296f170@pop3.xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107414 > >Asian_lovr2: > > > >According to this, Snape first applied for and was refused the > >position, and since then has /regularly/ applied for and been > >consistently refused the position of DADA teacher. > > > >I don't think that leaves much room for interpretation. I think the only remaining question is, how does Snape feel about being > >/consistently refused/ the job. > > > Tanya here. > > I don't know how Snape feels. But it does show one thing if he really > wants it. He's not a quitter then. 14 years is a long time to keep applying. Potioncat: Snape applies regularly for 14 years for a job and is denied. Even when it means the MoM will appoint a teacher. Snape requests frequently that a disobedient student be expelled or at least suspended and is denied. Snape argues against the hiring of a man who is a werewolf and who was known to be a friend of the murderer Black and is ignored. Snape is humiliated by a fellow teacher and the Headmaster joins in. Snape brings in the murderer Black, at risk to his own life, and is ignored. Snape was tempted by Fudge. I wonder if anyone else will be tempting him? Potioncat (who can never resist the temptation of fudge) From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jul 23 12:13:57 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:13:57 -0000 Subject: Quick question re: Lupin's resignation . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107415 > Pippin: > > "As long as I take [the potion] in the week preceding the full > moon, I keep my mind when I transform...." > -PoA Ch 18 > > Lupin drinks his potion a week before his transformation in > chapter 8, and it seems only one dose is mandatory. ("I made an > entire cauldronful," Snape continued, "if you need more." > "I should probably take some again tomorrow") > > So Lupin not only didn't take his potion the night of the Shack, but > for six preceding nights--what was he supposed to be upset > about then? > > Pippin > who thinks Lupin did take his potion, and was in his right-but > -ever-so-evil mind when he transformed. Potioncat: I took it that Snape and Lupin were doing their "secret meaning conversation" just like they did over the Map. "if you need more" means "The next 6 doses are ready and you need to take them too." and "I should probably take some again tomorrow." means "I know that you greasy git." I'm not sure if Lupin is ESE or not. But I keep thinking about the "Snape is a bad teacher debates" that come up and how often he is compared to the wonderful teacher Crouch!Moody. And I think how similar Lupin and C!M are. From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jul 23 12:28:49 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:28:49 -0000 Subject: An etymology for Kreacher In-Reply-To: <001a01c4708d$b912c050$61c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107416 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cathy Drolet" wrote: > Carol adds (about the name Kreacher): snip Think of the implications of giving > him that name and its effect on his view of himself as he realized its > meaning." > > DuffyPoo now: > snip I can't imagine, say, Malfoy naming Dobby as it appears entirely to cuddly-cute when I think Malfoy would be more inclined to something like "Hey-You." > Potioncat: We arent' told who names baby House-Elves. I always assumed the owner did. Dobby may sound like a cute name, but it is a type of cleaning rag. I also wonder how long House-Elves live. From gregory_lynn at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 12:51:02 2004 From: gregory_lynn at yahoo.com (gregory_lynn) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:51:02 -0000 Subject: An Oddity Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107417 I haven't ready most of the messages the last few weeks so forgive me if this ends up being repetitive. Anyone else think it's odd that we haven't seen any portraits of the founders? If you're at a big famous school and you have portraits all over the place, wouldn't you think portraits of the founders would be fairly prominently displayed? If nothing else wouldn't there be portraits of the founders in the headmasters office? Even if the office of headmaster didn't exist when the founders were there, I would think they would rate portraits. -- Gregory Lynn From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Fri Jul 23 12:53:04 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:53:04 -0000 Subject: When Harry met Sally (was: Re: Incomplete Prophecy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107418 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > > Hmm. Various parallels spring to mind if you accept that the story is > told from Hermione's perspective: > Hermione - Thursday Next > Harry - Landen Park-Laine > Ron - Joffy > Minerva - Miss Haversham > Snape - Jack Schitt > Voldy - Acheron Hades > DD - Mycroft > Lupin - Spike (who also forgets to take his medicine) > Fudge - Victor Analogy > Malfoy - Felix8 > Sirius - Mr Delamare > > Kneasy > Who would love to see Dick the Shit at the Swindon Ritz. You old softie, a closet H/H shipper. Who'd have known it. And an amateur thesp to boot...you will be playing Dick of course? Carolyn Who'd like tickets for that From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 23 12:54:09 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:54:09 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Fear of Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107419 Angie wrote: > > > I the general consensus is that LV feared DD, but I don't see > > > this in his encounter with DD in OOP. I can't imagine LV > > > admitting any type of fear or weakness to anyone, so how do we > > > know LV feared DD? I know Hermione stated this and I presume it > > > is common knowledge, but again, the question is why. SSSusan: > > Not getting into the "why" at this point, I'll simply reply to > > the question of how we know that LV feared DD. For me, it's more > > the fact that *JKR* said it in her chapter title. That carries a > > lot more weight than Hermione's statement for me. Meri, nitpicking: > Yes, but if we accept that then we have to believe that Snape's > absolute worst memory despite his possible abusive childhood and > years of serivce as a DE was when he was fifteen and humiliated by > a pair of idiots in school. Now I was made fun of in high school, > but not one of those instances rates as my worst memory. SSSusan: Not nitpicking at all, Meri; it's a valid comparison. Point well taken. It doesn't make it certain that "The Only One He Ever Feared" *isn't* true, but it does raise a little question about it. Meri: > I think that the reason LV fears DD is because he knows deep in his > heart (if he has one) that DD is always gonna be stronger than him > because LV is afraid of dying and DD simply is not. SSSusan: I think this makes sense. I think there may be additional reasons as well, but this seems to me to be quite likely to be part of it. Other possibilities, I think, are: DD's history [defeating Grindelwald and all], clearly showing his commitment to stopping evil wizards; and the fact that DD seems, simply, to truly be a powerful wizard, able to do wandless and/or incantationless magic on occasion. I know *I* was impressed with his skills in the MoM scene. (I know some would argue that if he was all that powerful, he'd have killed Voldy there, but I think DD believes, because of the prophecy & his views on death "not being enough", that there's something else in store there for Voldy, and that it'll come about because of Harry, not DD.) Siriusly Snapey Susan From arioth at peoplepc.com Fri Jul 23 13:02:01 2004 From: arioth at peoplepc.com (arioth1) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:02:01 -0000 Subject: Quick question re: Lupin's resignation . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107420 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "huntergreen_3" wrote: > As Pippin pointed out, why hadn't he taken it yet? It was dusk on the > *night of* a full moon, it was only a matter of hours before he had > to transform. He was certainly putting off taking it. I'm not so sure you can say Lupin put off taking it. He takes it when Snape brings it to him. If Snape doesn't bring the potion until dusk, he can't take it until dusk. It seems to me Snape was the one waiting until the last minute, probably hoping for something to happen so he could "out" Lupin. OK Snape-lovers, have at me! Ari From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 23 13:05:01 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:05:01 -0000 Subject: Doesn't Voldemort know about Snape's loyalty? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107421 Angie wondered: > Voldemort wouldn't have to know anything about the Order to > know that Snape was trying to prevent Quirrell from getting the > Stone, which would mean he was working against Voldemort. Potioncat responded: > But LV did not reveal himself to anyone. Quirrell hadn't been a > DE, he had been "recruited" more recently. If Snape suspected > something, he most likely made it appear that he wanted the stone > for himself. I doubt that between Snape and Quirrell the LV-DD > situation even came up. SSSusan added: > Yes, I think Potioncat is right. Whatever Snape knew or suspected, > really, he could have just been attempting to stop some evil > *individual* wizard who wanted to attain immortal life. Since > Voldy hadn't been seen or heard from for 12 years, Snape could > **easily** plead "How could I have known??" if he'd been confronted > by Voldy later. Carol responds: > First, I think Snape did know that he was opposing Voldemort. True, > he couldn't have known that Voldemort was inside Quirrell's head, > but he may have suspected that Quirrell was somehow connected with > Voldemort (a tingling in the Dark Mark when he was near him?) He > wouldn't have been stupid enough to voice his suspicions openly, > but I think that he did have them. > > Given Snape's gift for occlumency (and basic Slytherin deception?), > it's possible that SSS is right about his ability to convince LV > (via Malfoy?) that he was opposing Quirrell as "an individual evil > wizard"--IOW opposing Quirrell but not opposing Voldemort. But I > don't think that's the case. IMO, Snape's remark to Quirrell > about "where your loyalties lie" told Quirrell (and therefore > Voldemort) that Snape's loyalty lay with Dumbledore--and therefore > with Dumbledore's most feared enemy, if not in direct opposition to > Voldemort himself. That would undermine his assertion that he was > opposing Quirrell *as* Quirrell. SSSusan: That *could* be, yes. Or it could be that "where your loyalties lie" refers in more general terms to "goodness" or "badness." Or it could be that it referred more generally to supporting DD, since it was DD who brought the stone there to prevent its being used. (Does that make sense? That if DD wanted the stone left alone and Q. wasn't abiding by that, then Snape could be pointing out that Q. isn't being loyal to DD--no matter WHAT his intentions for the stone were.) Carol: > And Voldemort isn't known for making generous assumptions, > such as, "If you're not directly opposing me, you must be on my > side." So I agree with Angie that the Quirrell incident at least > aroused LV's suspicions about Snape. That, combined with Snape's > absence from the graveyard in GoF, would be enough to make > Voldemort believe *at that time* that Snape had left him forever. SSSusan: I can see that these two indicents might have aroused Voldy's suspicions, yes, although I think each can be explained in ways that might have satisfied Voldy. As you noted, *at the time* in the graveyard, though, it may well be that Voldy wondered.... Siriusly Snapey Susan From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jul 23 13:15:56 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:15:56 -0000 Subject: Something wrong with this Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107422 > Joyfulstoryteller: > > One of the cannon tidbits that leads me to believe that Fudge is > either actually evil, or at least suspicious, is something that no one > has mentioned yet... > > In PS/SS, Fudge is the one who sent the owl to Dumbledore, taking him > away from Hogwarts at the same time as Quirrell/Voldemort is making > the attempt to steal the Philosopher's (Sorcerer's) Stone. It's easy > to miss, especially as Hagrid has already set us up to dismiss it by > stating that Fudge is constantly running to Dumbledore for advice. > But Dumbledore himself tells us that no sooner did he reach London > than it became clear to him that he needed to head back to Hogwarts. > (US paperback, Ch.17, p.297) > > Potioncat: I just re-read that section. As well as the part where McGonagall tells the Trio that DD has flown to London. But we aren't told Fudge sent the owl. We're told the MoM sent an owl. I also read Quirrell's conversation with Harry. He doesn't mention the owl at all. But I always thought Quirrell sent a forged owl to get DD away. Now, if Fudge sent it to lure DD away, then Fudge rates higher than all the other DEs becasue no one, not even Malfoy, knows that LV is back. The other possibility is that a genuine owl was sent to DD and Quirrell used that opportunity to go after the stone. DD arrives at the MoM and realises that this is one more example of his being called on for unimportant matters and he walks out. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 23 13:32:56 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:32:56 -0000 Subject: Something wrong with this Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107423 HunterGreen: > > > Evidence for an ESE!Fudge is ridiculously easy to put together. Matt added: > > > I'm not so sure about Fudge as evil; I see him more as the > > > quintessential bureaucrat, who values process (or the appearance > > > thereof), preservation of the status quo, and above all > > > retaining his position of authority, while discounting > > > principles and anything that makes his job more difficult than > > > it needs to be. SSSusan now: > > All those things you've said, Matt, do seem to perfectly describe > > Fudge. On the other hand, does anybody else think it's just > > possible that JKR might be *deliberately* getting us to focus > > on "misguided, bumbling, quintessential bureaucrat Fudge" so that > > we don't seriously consider the possibility of his being ESE! > > and "behind it all"?? > > > Maybe Fudge isn't ESE! for the reasons often put forth [power- > > hungry MoM in at least partial alignment w/ DE goals & values] > > but because he's truly orchestrated all these things all along, > > from behind the scenes, to help Voldy return. dcgmck: > Everyone is making persuasive arguments, but as an American living > under GWB in these curious times and one who has worked with and > under a variety of bureaucrats and administrators, I am inclined to > think that JKR has had more than enough of her own experiences with > bureaucracy to be sincere in her desire to demonstrate that evil is > not always intentional, that willful ignorance and stupidity can > just as dangerous if not even more damaging than the best-laid > plans of villains. Fudge may, indeed, prove to be Machiavellian, > but I'm more inclined to think he's more like GW, our fearless U.S. > president, and therefore more dangerous. It's just not possible to > be so prescient as to plan some of the things that can go wrong > with unhealthy doses of pro-active paranoia and stupidity. If one > takes the canon at face value, my assertion is borne out. Of > course, reading between the lines yields the opposite > understanding. Huh... SSSusan: LOL, dcgmck! Your point that fearlessness coupled w/ stupidity can do more damage than the plans of evil villains is fair enough to make. Fudge & GWB--an interesting comparison. :-) I like your last sentence, though, and I think this is the "problem" [read: fun] with this debate; it can't be conclusive just yet. Siriusly Snapey Susan From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Fri Jul 23 13:34:54 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:34:54 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Fear of Dumbledore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107424 > SSSusan wrote about Dumbledore: > (I know some would argue that if he was all that powerful, he'd have > killed Voldy there, but I think DD believes, because of the prophecy > & his views on death "not being enough", that there's something else > in store there for Voldy, and that it'll come about because of Harry, > not DD.) > > Siriusly Snapey Susan Two reasons for DD to not kill Voldy: 1. Due to his quest for eternal life LV can't be killed in any way available to DD. We still don't know why Harry is The One who can. 2. LV may be a dual being, part Tom Riddle and part someone else. (Salazar Slytherin? Some other ancient evil spirit?) Maybe DD doesn't want to kill Riddle, just destroy the evil spirit in him? By the way, has anyone else wondered where Voldy's body went in the MoM scene after he (assumedly) disapparated from DD's water trap? Did he have to stay close so he could attempt to possess Harry? or was the bond so strong that wasn't necessary, and if so why didn't he try this before? I'm constantly torn between wanting to assume it'll all come clear when secrets are revealed in books 6&7, and thinking that in a series of this complexity she has necessarily left a few small plot holes. --boyd who is still disturbed by JKR's use of time travel and foretelling the future From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jul 23 13:40:27 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:40:27 -0000 Subject: Quick question re: Lupin's resignation . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107425 > Ari wrote: > I'm not so sure you can say Lupin put off taking it. He takes it > when Snape brings it to him. If Snape doesn't bring the potion until > dusk, he can't take it until dusk. potioncat: I think you have a good point. The first time we see Lupin taking the potion, Snape brings it to him. And that couldn't have been the first time Lupin took the potoin at Hogwarts. But look at this quote: PoA, chpt 19, p358 (paperback) "I've just been to your office, Lupin. You forgot to take your potion tonight, so I took a gobletful along." It appears that Snape was aware Lupin hadn't taken his potion and was taking it to him. Potioncat From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Fri Jul 23 13:54:20 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:54:20 -0000 Subject: Something wrong with this Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107426 > Potioncat wrote: > I just re-read that section. As well as the part where McGonagall > tells the Trio that DD has flown to London. But we aren't told > Fudge sent the owl. We're told the MoM sent an owl. I also read > Quirrell's conversation with Harry. He doesn't mention the owl at > all. But I always thought Quirrell sent a forged owl to get DD away. > > Now, if Fudge sent it to lure DD away, then Fudge rates higher than > all the other DEs becasue no one, not even Malfoy, knows that LV is > back. The other possibility is that a genuine owl was sent to DD and > Quirrell used that opportunity to go after the stone. DD arrives at > the MoM and realises that this is one more example of his being > called on for unimportant matters and he walks out. Or perhaps Jo just needed DD out of the picture to force her three heroes into action. Thus, a headmaster is off to tend some business matters. Need there be more to it than that? As for Fudge, why must he be ESE? I see little in his actions that is inconsistent with a stereotypically out-of-touch public servant more worried about maintaining the status quo and his own popularity than taking on difficult tasks during his tenure. It will certainly be interesting to see what he does (if anything) in Book 6 now that LV and many DEs were spotted in the MoM, and some captured. My bet is the DE's will escape Azkaban (Dementors? please...) and we'll have a scared WW being hit with a few terrorist-style attacks. Finally, a little real mayhem may ensue. Most will cut and run/hide, some will join LV, and a few will stand up to him. My bet is on Fudge simply trying to "manage" the situation by sending his Aurors after the DEs and hoping for the best...oh, and of course, Fudge will try to keep a very low profile. Until Lucius kills him. Doh, did I just say that? --boyd feeling very FEATHERBOA-ish today P.S. More likely than Lucius killing Fudge: Lucius killing DD (doh! again) From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Fri Jul 23 14:04:35 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:04:35 -0400 Subject: An etymology for Kreacher Message-ID: <001e01c470bd$fe96c4c0$90c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 107427 Potioncat: "We arent' told who names baby House-Elves. I always assumed the owner did. Dobby may sound like a cute name, but it is a type of cleaning rag. I also wonder how long House-Elves live." DuffyPoo Dobby may be a cleaning rag where you are but I've never heard it where I live. I always presumed the Mommy/Daddy House-elf named their baby(s). I can't imagine a rich, *powerfull*, pure-blood wizard like LM (or Mr & Mrs. Black) would give a rat's nose what the baby house-elf was called as long as there were more of them produced to keep the house clean. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jul 23 14:28:33 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 14:28:33 -0000 Subject: An etymology for Kreacher In-Reply-To: <001e01c470bd$fe96c4c0$90c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107428 > DuffyPoo > > Dobby may be a cleaning rag where you are but I've never heard it where I live. I always presumed the Mommy/Daddy House-elf named their baby(s). I can't imagine a rich, *powerfull*, pure-blood wizard like LM (or Mr & Mrs. Black) would give a rat's nose what the baby house-elf was called as long as there were more of them produced to keep the house clean. > > Potioncat: Arguing about who names the house-elves could easily get into an no- win situation. Actually whether crazy Mrs. Black or Kreacher's crazy house-elf mother named him, the name would have the same effect. (The original point upthread, I think) Dobby could be a point of pride (useful cleaning tool) named by parents or a name of dirision (I see we have a another dobby in the kitchen) named by owner. Potioncat From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Fri Jul 23 14:39:10 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 14:39:10 -0000 Subject: Attack on Hogwarts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107429 > Kneasy wrote: > > I'll be quite disappointed if Hogwarts remains unpenetrated and if > (when) it is I expect the showdown to happen in the Chamber. > > Kneasy Hmmm, let's see. Reasons why your theory makes sense: * No evidence yet that Jo enjoys penning bloody battles--the closest example is the centaurs and Grawp, and even that was fairly harmless for younger readers. So if she can get the main characters in a room together for the final showdown, she avoids massive LOTR-style wars. * From a cinematic standpoint (if that description makes sense within a book), the Chamber would be a great backdrop. Take the battle to Hogwarts, Harry's home, but also to the Chamber within it, Voldy's/Tom's home. High, soaring walls and statues of Slyth. * Some might argue that the Chamber is where this all began--Slytherin started the WW down a path of racism, and Tom either echoes his sentiments or carries his spirit (Vapor!Mort). Ending Voldy's reign here would bring the story full-circle. And this would be the best place to reveal any more secrets the Chamber contains. * It's from you, Kneasy. 'Nuff said. On the other hand, we've been to new places in every book, so perhaps the showdown will happen somewhere we haven't yet been. Then Jo can build the meeting however she wants. An existing location could be a bit limiting, whereas she can set the stage however she wants if she moves it to a new site. Weapons, allies, revelations, whatever. Just a thought. --boyd could it be the Hogwarts cemetery? still could fit with the whole spirit of Slytherin/Vapor!Mort theory From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Fri Jul 23 14:57:54 2004 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 14:57:54 -0000 Subject: "Gran" -- Whose Mother? (Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Chapter 23) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107430 > > James wrote: > > Is Gran Fank's mother or Alice's mother? I can't seem to > > remember where (or if) this was actually mentioned, if > > someone would be so kind as to give me a quote. For some > > reason I had always assumed that Alice was her daughter. > > Rebecca replied: > > Her name is Mrs. Longbottom, so she must be Frank's mother. > > --Rebecca Trishel That's a pretty good clue, as is the fact that she refers to Frank and Alice as "My son and his wife" in the scene under discussion. :) -- Matt From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Fri Jul 23 15:05:40 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:05:40 -0000 Subject: Something wrong with this Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107431 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dcgmck" wrote: > dcgmck: > Everyone is making persuasive arguments, but as an American living > under GWB in these curious times and one who has worked with and > under a variety of bureaucrats and administrators, I am inclined to > think that JKR has had more than enough of her own experiences with > bureaucracy to be sincere in her desire to demonstrate that evil is > not always intentional, that willful ignorance and stupidity can just > as dangerous if not even more damaging than the best-laid plans of > villains. Fudge may, indeed, prove to be Machiavellian, but I'm more > inclined to think he's more like GW, our fearless U.S. president, and > therefore more dangerous. . "K": I thought remarks such as the above were not allowed. Am I wrong or is the site now allowing personal political views on the canon site. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 23 15:14:19 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:14:19 -0000 Subject: When Harry met Sally (was: Re: Incomplete Prophecy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107432 Kneasy wrote: > > > It'll probably boil down to one of DD's choices eventually. SSSusan: > > Whoa. Unless there's sarcasm in that thar final sentence, > > methinks I detect a change of attitude w/in Kneasy? Could it be > > that you believe Harry *will* have choice in the end? I thought > > I remember your belief that Harry really *hasn't* had choice-- > > that DD [and perhaps circumstance?] has been controlling so much > > that Harry hasn't been allowed a true choice of his own. [I > > don't agree, but I thought that's what I remembered of your view.] > > > > So is that precisely your point--that it'll come down > > to one more DD string-pull and not a true choice for Harry? Or > > will this one finally be Harry's for real? Kneasy: > Bit of everything, really. > Sarcasm, yes; because I don't believe DD is constitutionally > capable of allowing some-one to make up their own mind without > interferring. He way he talks about choice reminds me of the way > he talks about truth - it's so precious that it must be used > sparingly and with discretion, i.e. do it my way. And since all too > often in Harry's life and times it's been DD that doles out the > information that Harry uses to reach his conclusions the concept of > real choice is moot. > > DD knows what he wants to happen and has probably planned the best > way to achieve his goals. Do you really think he'd give up on that > because some stroppy teenager had different ideas? It's a > continuation of his policy towards Harry from book 1 chap.1. Limit > Harry's options. Harry has had no say in any worthwhile decision > about his life - probably a good thing, Harry would only have > cocked it up, just like the Occlumency fiasco. Harry is DD's > instrument; come hell or high water DD will ensure that Harry does > what's necessary. Note that DD has strong and influential > supporters in Ron and Hermione. They think he's wonderful. Another > source of indirect DD pressure on Harry. SSSusan: Well, whew! I'm pleased to see you're still firmly entrenched in the Harry's-never-had-a-real-choice camp. I have always argued that Harry has had some real choice--that he has, in fact, exercised that choice--but the "problem" is that he has exercised it in such a way that he's ended up aligned with DD's grand plans/hopes. Because of that, it can't be fully clear that he truly has CHOSEN and wasn't just coerced, led, or "influenced." (Your bringing Ron & Hermione into it adds another dimension to that influence, as well--good point.) And you're right that DD has limited the info Harry's received. I have always wondered, though, believing as I do that he HAS truly chosen for himself, what WOULD have happened if Harry had exercised his choice by going AGAINST what DD planned/hoped? What if Harry had behaved as many stroppy teenagers...as many of us, I'd wager to guess...would have behaved? That is, by saying, "NO WAY, OLD MAN! *I'm* not going to risk MY neck! Let somebody ELSE do this!! Let the wizarding world fend for itself! *I* didn't ask for this, and I CHOOSE NOT TO ACCEPT the burden!" I mean, this would be a choice which DD could not control. He wields influence, certainly, and you've pointed out that Ron & (especially) Hermione tend to promote what DD promotes, but in the end, it's up to Harry to buy into it or not. DD's been lucky, imo, that Harry's nature has proven (so far!) to be essentially courageous, true to serving the greater good, and willing to sacrifice. Kneasy: > But there is somebody else whose choice may be critical - Tom > Riddle. He's somewhere inside Voldy; a Voldy that DD is most > reluctant to kill. I believe that part of DD's plan is to split TR > off from the Voldy!Monster if he can, to the confusion and > confoundment of the enemy. But this requires that Tom co-operate. A > choice is on offer - remain in thrall to an immortal evil for ever > or repudiate it and maybe achieve redemption. And perhaps also the > only way of getting that Voldy transfer out of Harry. SSSusan: This is a fascinating idea. And it would require that Tom cooperate, yes. Just as everything in DD's plans/hopes also requires that Harry cooperate. I see that as choice in both cases. Siriusly Snapey Susan From strawberry at jamm.com Fri Jul 23 15:15:14 2004 From: strawberry at jamm.com (Jenni A.M. Merrifield) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:15:14 -0000 Subject: SHIP:Hermione's feelings for Ron in OotP (Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107433 Jo S. wrote: > I'd be willing to bet that the perfume didn't smell wonderful > (hence the "unusual" comment) because Ron wouldn't know much at > all about selecting scents and also because he doesn't have much > money. > You know, it's funny. Everyone else seems to assume that, by saying that the perfume is "unusual", Hermione is trying to be "nice" about a gift that wasn't quite right. But when I read that, since JKR didn't add any particular emphasis to the word, I simply took it to mean exactly what it says - that the perfume is unusual and not a typical "smells like a rose or some other flower" perfume. In fact, I thought Hermione might have really /liked/ it, because it was *different*. Now, I'm not a "Shipper" - I don't particularly care, one way or the other, whether anyone gets together with anyone else - so I don't go out of my way looking for clues. But I also inferred from this that Ron (who undeniably has a "thing" for Hermione, even if he hasn't fully admitted it to himself yet) had actually put some thought into what he was looking for, and had found something that he thought Hermione *would* like, rather than just grabbing the first bottle of perfume he stumbled across, and that he'd succeeded in finding something a little bit different that also suited Hermione. Jenni Who really doesn't understand the constant fascination of the SHIPers, but figures "to each his (or her) own" From patientx3 at aol.com Fri Jul 23 15:23:29 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:23:29 -0000 Subject: Something wrong with this Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107434 Boyd wrote: >> As for Fudge, why must he be ESE? I see little in his actions that is inconsistent with a stereotypically out-of-touch public servant more worried about maintaining the status quo and his own popularity than taking on difficult tasks during his tenure. It will certainly be interesting to see what he does (if anything) in Book 6 now that LV and many DEs were spotted in the MoM, and some captured. << HunterGreen: Hit upthread a few times and read the original post and the replies, there's at least *some* evidence for it. In short, in PoA, the dementers have an unexplained interest in Harry and eventually try to kill him when the permission (we've been told) they have permission to kill is right there (the person most likely to have ordered them to kill Harry is Fudge), he has a strange number of appearences around the whole Peter/Sirius incident, he's said to be a pure-blood enthusiast, he has a good relationship with Lucius Malfoy (including at least one private meeting) and in GoF, the dementer he brings in swoops down on Barty Jr. and 'kills' him immediately after coming into the room with no provacation at all. From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Jul 23 15:25:17 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:25:17 -0000 Subject: Books 6 & 7 - tragedy or triumph? - rant In-Reply-To: <20040723112215.73304.qmail@web25101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107435 Hans: > Another member said a similar thing - amounting to the proposition that I am > seeing more in the book than is actually there, or perhaps intended to be > there. Jen: Hi Hans! I do think there's a difference between seeing more in the books than is *actually* there and more than what is *intended* to be there. Of course, until JKR is finished writing and explains her motivations, it may be difficult to separate the two. To the first idea, seeing what is actually there, most of us see something in the series that is the overarching theme of the seven books. I've grown to believe the series is about the process of alchemy and spiritual transformation, primarily because of the ideas you and Iris present here & the Granger article. I see the elements that you point out which are actually in the series and you make a compelling case for what you see. Now for the idea of Intention, which I think is crucially important. That's the part none of us can fully answer. I think elements of any creative project come from different sources, even ideas that you forgot you read or saw somewhere else, and of course, inspiration. Do I think JKR sat down with the Alchymical Wedding and planned out her series based exactly on it? No. And of course that's totally my opinion and she may prove me completely wrong! I do think she's incorporating the stages of alchemy into the text, and that she uses the symbolism liberally in the books. Hans: > Believe me, I've thought about this continuously for the last three years. > People around me have also told me I'm putting symbolism into HP that simply > isn't there. I've had attacks of doubt and have started my thinking again > from scratch, but always I come back to the one and only one conclusion I > reach every time: Harry Potter is one of the great calls from the free > universe to the people imprisoned in this madhouse to go Path of Alchemy to > reach total liberation. My life at the moment is filled with tingling > excitement and I feel like someone who's just won the lottery but can't > believe it's true. I've made this earth-shattering discovery and (most) > people won't believe me. Jen: Isn't that part of the process, though? Disbelief and rejection of an idea? None of us can make people see what they do not see. I find that a beautiful, rather than frustrating idea. Now *that* is true freedom! I think of someone like Nelson Mandela in real life or Sirius in fictional life--even imprisioned, they are free, because they chose to hang on to what they believed in despite torture, abuse, etc. In fact, what they believed in became stronger through rejection and imprisonment. Our thoughts and feelings are all we ultimately have control of in the end, even under the harshest of circumstances. Finding what you believe in is the most important thing, not whether you can convince anyone else of it. Some of the greatest leaders in the world never convinced more than a handful of people of their ideas, and some of the worst leaders convinced many people and led them to their doom. I don't think you will be "proven wrong" by Book 7. But even when all seven books are finally finished and JKR tells us more about her motivations and writing process, there will still be thousands of interpretations about what the books stand for, it's just inevitable. And the myriad reasons why we're all drawn to these books, the space between the words which speaks to each individual-- therein lies their beauty. Jen Reese From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Fri Jul 23 15:27:16 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:27:16 -0000 Subject: Longbottoms' Secret Keeper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107436 > Meri now: The Longbottoms weren't attacked till well after the > Potters were killed. According to DD that was one of the reasons that > people were so angry about the attacks. LV had fallen at this point, > families were coming out of hiding, and people thought they were safe > for the first time in ten years. IMHO it would be easy for Crouch and > the LeStranges to find the Longbottoms at this point (WW yellow > pages, anyone?). I would also assume that they were protected by > Fidelius, but as to where they hid and who their secret keeper was we > can only speculate till you know who lets us know. > > Meri OK, let's assume for a moment that JKR had decided the Longbottoms must be attacked, Crucio'd, driven insane. Since Harry was the one marked, not Neville, then the attack could only have taken place *after* the fall of Voldemort. So she also adds the whole pensieve trial scene and the background on Barty Jr and the couple we assume to be the Lestranges, all of which served to move the plot forward in no other way that I can think of. So let's all mentally add up all the time she has spent on Neville/his parents/the trial of their attackers. OK, tallied up? Way too much time and material spent on this to be of no importance, right? And it feels like far too much peripheral detail to be simply a personalization of the effects of LV's evil. So why is Neville and the attack on his parents important? Some say that Neville has been memory-charmed, but once he recovers will be a valuable ally to Harry, perhaps even killing LV himself. OK, so then all of Neville's backstory is just to make the ending a bit more heartwarming? But Dumbledore has already told Harry that he's the one--and JKR has said in interviews that Dumbledore does not lie to Harry. There've also been guesses that the Longbottoms were secretly DEs (or spies or turncoats). IMO there would have to be a big and bangy plot need for this to be true since we and Neville have been led to feel so sorry for them. And what big, bangy thing could possibly hinge on this? Even if the Longbottoms recover, the worst that could happen is that Neville has to kill them--and why would this be important? Also, if the audience for the books includes young readers, then this would be pretty borderline. Maybe we're gearing up for Neville sacrificing himself for the good guys, and by sacrificing, I mean taking a bullet (or spell, as the case may be) intended for them. Why would he do this? To allow Harry or others to avenge his parents. Hopefully, he'll take out a couple of DEs first, like Barty Jr and Bellatrix. That at least ties things up a little. But none of these feel like they justify the many pages Jo's spent developing this plot line. What else can it be? --boyd From patientx3 at aol.com Fri Jul 23 15:34:21 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:34:21 -0000 Subject: Quick question re: Lupin's resignation . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107437 > Ari wrote: > I'm not so sure you can say Lupin put off taking it. He takes it > when Snape brings it to him. If Snape doesn't bring the potion until > dusk, he can't take it until dusk. potioncat replied: >>I think you have a good point. The first time we see Lupin taking the potion, Snape brings it to him. And that couldn't have been the first time Lupin took the potoin at Hogwarts. But look at this quote: PoA, chpt 19, p358 (paperback) "I've just been to your office, Lupin. You forgot to take your potion tonight, so I took a gobletful along." << HunterGreen: Snape might have been making sure that Lupin didn't forget to take it, that's why he took it upon himself to *walk* it to Lupin's office. I never got the impression that that was their system. There's a post back in the archives somewhere about Lupin being in denial about his condition, (does anyone know what I'm talking about?), and that's why Snape ends up having to bring the potion to his office for him, since Lupin doesn't think its as important as he should (I'm afraid *I* can't back that up though, but the post layed it out really well). In any case, he still leaves the shack during the full moon when he knows he hasn't taken the potion. From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Jul 23 15:36:29 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:36:29 -0000 Subject: An Oddity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107438 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gregory_lynn" wrote: > Anyone else think it's odd that we haven't seen any portraits of the founders? < I think the craft of magical portrait making hadn't been perfected at that time. Otherwise they wouldn't have needed to put their brains in the Sorting Hat. They could have had their portraits select the candidates as they themselves had done -- "while still alive they did divide their favorites from the throng" (GoF). Pippin From tzakis1225 at netzero.com Fri Jul 23 15:42:37 2004 From: tzakis1225 at netzero.com (demetra1225) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:42:37 -0000 Subject: Something wrong with this Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107439 > Erinellii: > > I am willing to entertain the notion that Fudge is evil simply > > because *Snape has talked to him*. See my earlier post: > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/107298 > > > > Hey, no one's commented on it yet, so here I am, reduced to butting > > in on other people's discussions :-) > > > SSSusan: > LOL! I'll take support any way I can get it, Erin. I can't > *believe* no one's commented on your post, as it's a truly > fascinating theory [as I told you over on that other little list]. > For those who haven't read it, the gist of it is that *anyone* with > whom Snape has had a significant discourse [in terms of length] > turns out to be either one who's a DE, a suspected DE, a traitor to > DD, or a suspected traitor to DD. And with the PoA post-capture of > Black scene, we've got Snape conversing with Fudge! :-) > Demetra: I also read Erin's post but didn't respond because I couldn't come up with more than "Wow, I never thought of that". I agree that it is very interesting that Snape seems to have conversations with specific types of characters. I'm wondering if there might be something to be gleaned from looking at what he says as well - not at the surface level but looking for an underlying meaning. I was thinking about this the other day when someone commented that Snape and Lupin's conversation in PoA about the map was sort of in code. Both Snape and Lupin knew they were talking about something else, but Harry had no idea. Plus Snape comments to Harry in OotP that Harry has no subtlety. Is he trying to hint to Harry to look deeper for the subtle rather than the obvious. I've been thinking of going back to look for any possible double- speak in what Snape says, thinking that there may be some clues there. Of course, by the time I actually get around to doing it, book 7 will probably be out. From jferer at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 15:58:15 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:58:15 -0000 Subject: SHIP:Hermione's feelings for Ron in OotP (Was: Re: Harry's first Kiss) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107440 Jo S. "wrote: I'd be willing to bet that the perfume didn't smell wonderful (hence the "unusual" comment) because Ron wouldn't know much at all about selecting scents and also because he doesn't have much money." Jenni: "But when I read that, since JKR didn't add any particular emphasis to the word, I simply took it to mean exactly what it says ? that the perfume is unusual and not a typical "smells like a rose or some other flower" perfume. In fact, I thought Hermione might have really /liked/ it, because it was *different*." If I gave a lady perfume and she termed it "unusual," I'd be bummed out. You have to add something to it to get anything better out of it. There's no question Ron is interested in Hermione, absolutely agreed. Jenni: "Who really doesn't understand the constant fascination of the SHIPers, but figures "to each his (or her) own" It's a great insight into the characters, and a measure of how great a job JKR does with them that we actually care about the love lives of fictional teenagers. Otherwise, SHIPing is completely indefensible. Jim Ferer, who would have to be tortured to admit his interest in SHIPping. From jferer at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 16:21:18 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:21:18 -0000 Subject: Something wrong with this Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107441 Susan: "MY original point was that some people have claimed Fudge is a good ESE! Candidate because he opposes DD, is friends w/ Lucius, is unfair to Harry in his trial, won't take the position of informing the WW that Voldy's back even though the evidence is clear, etc.-- all the CLEAR, SURFACEY detail from canon. I then went on to point out that often people argue back that, no, these things don't make Fudge ESE!, they simply make him a waffling, weak, power-hungry bureaucrat. My final point was that, wouldn't it be interesting if, in the end, we find that Fudge truly is ESE! But not for the reasons typically stated (and reiterated in this paragraph)? What if it's because he really has been orchestrating truly evil things, such as setting the Dementors on Harry, being in on the Potters' death or helping Wormtail somehow, having Barty, Jr. "kissed" before he could testify so as to protect or hide something, helping Voldy return?" If that's true, then Fudge is a DE, maybe not in name, but in thought and deed. Fudge is part of a theme and a contrast by JKR ? selfless courage, duty, standing up for one's friends, represented by Dumbledore, Harry, Harry's friends, and many of the Hogwarts staff, and venality, malfeasance, self-interest and cowardice, represented by Fudge, Crouch Senior, and Umbridge. Does this make Fudge evil? I say it does, and Umbridge shows us how far it can go. Is Percy on that continuum? He may be, if he isn't actually dissembling on Dumbledore's behalf, which is perfectly possible. Nobody can say that Fudge didn't do the things you speculate he might have done, but mostly it wouldn't be like him. He's a man of inaction, as Harry is a man of action. The one exception is that I could easily believe he had Crouch Jr. "kissed" to eliminate and cover up an embarrassment to the Ministry. As far as Fudge sucking up to Lucius, and his prejudice, consider our history. Public figures as diverse as Charles Lindbergh, Joe Kennedy Sr. and the Duke of Windsor were early admirers of Hitler and shared a lot of the same prejudice, although not to that psychotic a degree. Once the Second World War started most came back to the fold; Lindbergh spent the entire war trying to live it down. I think the parallels are generally valid. Is Fudge evil? I think so. I just don't think he's a DE or a mole, or that major a player any more. JKR is character-driven. Know her characters and you can predict a lot of what they'll do. Jim Ferer From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 16:28:26 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:28:26 -0000 Subject: Still wondering why Snape trusts DD! (was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107442 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > Carol earlier: > > > Moreover, he can't know that Snape is an occlumens or Snape would be unable to spy on him or observe him or attend meetings (whatever he's doing) without giving himself away. > > > Carolina replied: > > I can't agree with this. If Voldemort is using Snape as a spy, he > should know that he needs to be an occlumens to do that work. One can't be under the nose of a legilimens for 14 years without being an occlumens and Voldemort should know, or should be asking himself why DD hasn't detected him in 14 years if he is not one. Carol responds: Oops. I guess I should watch my pronouns. I didn't mean that *Voldemort* is using snape as a spy. I meant that Snape is spying on *him.* The whole idea of his being an occlumens is that he can block his mind against a Legilimens like Voldemort--and, as someone pointed out with a quote to back it up, Snape can allow the Legilimens to see what he wants him to see but hide or block what he doesn't. As for why Dumbledore hasn't detected him, that doesn't even make sense, since it was Dumbledore who asked Snape to teach Harry occlumency. DD not only knows that Snape is an occlumens, IMO, he probably taught him occlumency. So, to clarify, I repeat: Voldemort can't know that Snape is an occlumens or Snape would be unable to attend meetings (or whatever he does) without being suspected as a spy. (As it is, I'm pretty sure that Voldemort suspects his loyalty for other reasons, and that he is "the one I believe has left me forever"--but he seems to have convinced Lucius Malfoy, at least, that he's actually still loyal.) Sorry--can't finish the post. My ride to the airport is here. I'll be in San Diego for three days! Carol From jferer at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 16:28:26 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:28:26 -0000 Subject: An Oddity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107443 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gregory_lynn" > wrote: > > > Anyone else think it's odd that we haven't seen any portraits of > the founders? < > > I think the craft of magical portrait making hadn't been perfected > at that time. Otherwise they wouldn't have needed to put their > brains in the Sorting Hat. They could have had their portraits > select the candidates as they themselves had done -- "while still > alive they did divide their favorites from the throng" (GoF). I'll bet you're right. I'd love to know a lot more about magical portraits - do they capture the person's personality and habits of mind at the time the painting was made? (you'd think so). So, if a painting of Sirius done pre-Azkaban was found, what would that be like? Would Portrait!Sirius not know Harry? Is a portrait capable of independent thought? (seems so). The only problem I see with your portrait-selection hypothesis is that the paintings may not be able to get into the candidates' heads the way the Hat does, but that's sheer speculation. Jim Ferer From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Jul 23 16:31:37 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:31:37 -0000 Subject: When Harry met Sally (was: Re: Incomplete Prophecy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107444 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: snip > I have always wondered, though, believing as I do that he > HAS truly chosen for himself, what WOULD have happened if Harry had > exercised his choice by going AGAINST what DD planned/hoped? What if > Harry had behaved as many stroppy teenagers...as many of us, I'd > wager to guess...would have behaved? That is, by saying, "NO WAY, > OLD MAN! *I'm* not going to risk MY neck! Let somebody ELSE do this!! > Let the wizarding world fend for itself! *I* didn't ask for this, and > I CHOOSE NOT TO ACCEPT the burden!" > Funny you should mention that. I fully expect Harry to dig his heels in and try to opt out in book 6. He'll be just beginning to realise the implications of his little chat with DD at the end of OoP. He will not be happy at being voted (in absentia) as the Chief Pest Exterminator to the WW. Come back with your shield or on it, kind of thing. With luck this will cause all sorts of delightful complications as Harry tries to avoid the fate chosen for him, possibly resulting in a fatality or two (purely unintended of course - just as Sirius' was). And don't forget - this will probably where the *Temptation* rears its seductive head. Somebody will offer Harry a (seemingly) easy way out. It won't be, needless to say. Kneasy From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Fri Jul 23 16:32:43 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:32:43 -0000 Subject: Something wrong with this Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107445 > HunterGreen wrote: > Hit upthread a few times and read the original post and the replies, > there's at least *some* evidence for it. In short, in PoA, the > dementers have an unexplained interest in Harry and eventually try to > kill him when the permission (we've been told) they have permission > to kill is right there (the person most likely to have ordered them > to kill Harry is Fudge), he has a strange number of appearences > around the whole Peter/Sirius incident, he's said to be a pure-blood > enthusiast, he has a good relationship with Lucius Malfoy (including > at least one private meeting) and in GoF, the dementer he brings in > swoops down on Barty Jr. and 'kills' him immediately after coming > into the room with no provacation at all. As with many characters in HP, Fudge's loyalties are impossible to pin down with certainty. Having said that, I remain unconvinced of Fudge's ESE-ness, particularly if being ESE means *wanting* to hurt Harry. First let's look at Fudge's relationship with LV. I think there's none. If Fudge were in league with LV, why try to kick Harry out of Hogwarts in OoP? LV can't kill him if he's at home with the Dursleys. Or why not have Umbridge kill him at school? It's been pointed out on this thread that Fudge could be ESE but not siding with LV. True, he could. But I think there are easier explanations. Specifically, we don't know to what degree the Dementors are actually under Fudge's control, so their "interest" in Harry could be due to LV, the proximity of Sirius or just excitement over his strong spirit and his extreme reaction to their presence. Sucking Barty Jr's soul in GoF argues neither way--could have been just punishment for a crime (like in PoA, kill the escapoed Azkaban'er with a Dementor kiss) or eliminate the witness (one ESE interpretation). His many appearances in PoA are more likely the work of a politician trying to calm a scared electorate and save face. Sirius' escape from Azkaban was horrifying news to the WW, remember, and it happened with Fudge at the helm. His relationship with Lucius is not that different from modern politicians' ties to affluent supporters. IMO, JKR has just written an amoral/neutral politician here. Maybe that fits some definitions of ESE, but I think JKR's just trying to show that in life some people don't choose a *side*, they choose *themselves*. --boyd From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 23 16:41:44 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:41:44 -0000 Subject: Something wrong with this Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107446 SSSusan, previously: >>>"MY original point was that some people have claimed Fudge is a good ESE! Candidate because he opposes DD, is friends w/ Lucius, is unfair to Harry in his trial, won't take the position of informing the WW that Voldy's back even though the evidence is clear, etc.-- all the CLEAR, SURFACEY detail from canon. I then went on to point out that often people argue back that, no, these things don't make Fudge ESE!, they simply make him a waffling, weak, power-hungry bureaucrat. My final point was that, wouldn't it be interesting if, in the end, we find that Fudge truly is ESE! But not for the reasons typically stated and reiterated in this paragraph)? What if it's because he really has been orchestrating truly evil things, such as setting the Dementors on Harry, being in on the Potters' death or helping Wormtail somehow, having Barty, Jr. "kissed" before he could testify so as to protect or hide something, helping Voldy return?"<<< Jim: > If that's true, then Fudge is a DE, maybe not in name, but in > thought and deed. > > Fudge is part of a theme and a contrast by JKR ? selfless courage, > duty, standing up for one's friends, represented by Dumbledore, > Harry, Harry's friends, and many of the Hogwarts staff, and > venality,malfeasance, self-interest and cowardice, represented by > Fudge, Crouch Senior, and Umbridge. Does this make Fudge evil? I > say it does, and Umbridge shows us how far it can go. > > Nobody can say that Fudge didn't do the things you speculate he > might have done, but mostly it wouldn't be like him. He's a man of > inaction, as Harry is a man of action. SSSusan responds: Ah, but how do we KNOW that he's a man of inaction? Part of what some of us are speculating is that the "bumbling" may be somewhat put- on or part of his cover for his *truly* evil actions. In other words, he may very well be a man of action, but it's SILENT or BEHIND- THE-SCENES action. We don't get to SEE how the Dementors were sent off to Hogwarts in PoA, nor how they got their instructions & what those were. We don't get *necessarily* the full picture of what happened between Sirius & Peter & the street full of Muggles. We definitely don't have the whole picture of Godric's Hollow nor of how Wormtail ended up w/ the Weasleys. We don't *necessarily* know the full story behind the Weasleys winning the Daily Prophet contest and being photographed in Egypt and the photo happening to end up w/ Sirius. It may be that Fudge had no part--no "evil" part, anyway--in any of these situations. But it's also possible that he did, since he was closely involved and/or present in each case. He's a man of SILENT ACTION, I tell you! ;-) Jim: > Is Fudge evil? I think so. I just don't think he's a DE or a mole, > or that major a player any more. > > JKR is character-driven. Know her characters and you can predict a > lot of what they'll do. SSSusan: But that's just it--I'm afraid we *can't* always know her characters. The ones we know best--Harry, Ron, Hermione, Hagrid, etc.--I suppose have become fairly predictable to us. But it's that *not*-knowing, in fact, our inability to fully know because of what JKR has chosen to leave out, that makes it impossible to fully predict the actions of people like Snape, Ludo Bagman, Lucius Malfoy,.... And I'd add Fudge. The speculation is part of trying to figure out whether we *can* know him better than we'd thought. Siriusly Snapey Susan From entropymail at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 16:44:19 2004 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:44:19 -0000 Subject: Resolving "In Essence Divided" With The Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107447 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dcgmck" wrote: > "entropymail" wrote: [major snip, sorry; good stuff that] > > > Clearly, Voldemort cannot live as a whole being while Harry > survives, stubbornly holding onto Voldie's other half. Harry, as > well, cannot survive as a whole being as long as half of Voldemort > takes up half of Harry's mind. Voldemort must kill Harry in order to > regain his full spirit. As for Harry, either Harry or Voldie's > spirit will ultimately gain control over his mind. Neither of these > two competing forces can fully survive while it is at odds with the > other. < > > > dcgmck: I like how it plays. This understanding works with the train > of thought that JKR will find a way for Harry to resolve his dilemma > without stooping to killing, the false dichotomy he was last > entertaining in the midst of a full-blown attack of puberty. With this in mind, I've been practically tripping over references to things being split or paired. Here are a few on my mind: 1. Fred and George: They are not just twins. They seem to be wholly of the same mind; finishing each others' thoughts and such. They can truly be described as one mind in two bodies. 2. Don't know how I neglected to mention it the first time around, but the green-smoke snake which issues from Dumbledore's instrument as he murmurs "But in essence divided?" It splits into two snakes in answer to his question. 3. When Voldie possesses Harry in the MOM: "...they were fused together, bound by pain...." 4. And where is it that Harry feels as if his head will split open, split in two, or some such thing? I know I've seen it... ;; Entropy :: From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 23 16:50:36 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:50:36 -0000 Subject: When Harry met Sally (was: Re: Incomplete Prophecy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107448 SSSusan previously: > > I have always wondered, though, believing as I do that he > > HAS truly chosen for himself, what WOULD have happened if Harry > > had exercised his choice by going AGAINST what DD planned/hoped? > > What if Harry had behaved as many stroppy teenagers...as many of > > us, I'd wager to guess...would have behaved? That is, by > > saying, "NO WAY, OLD MAN! *I'm* not going to risk MY neck! Let > > somebody ELSE do this!! Let the wizarding world fend for itself! > > *I* didn't ask for this, and I CHOOSE NOT TO ACCEPT the burden!" Kneasy: > Funny you should mention that. > > I fully expect Harry to dig his heels in and try to opt out in > book 6. He'll be just beginning to realise the implications of his > little chat with DD at the end of OoP. He will not be happy at > being voted (in absentia) as the Chief Pest Exterminator to the WW. > Come back with your shield or on it, kind of thing. > > With luck this will cause all sorts of delightful complications as > Harry tries to avoid the fate chosen for him, possibly resulting > in a fatality or two (purely unintended of course - just as Sirius' > was). And don't forget - this will probably where the *Temptation* > rears its seductive head. Somebody will offer Harry a (seemingly) > easy way out. > > It won't be, needless to say. > SSSusan: Hurray!! And THEN we'll agree that Harry has definitely HAD a real choice to make, won't we? ;-) Personally--and most here know that I just adore Harry, so I'm not saying this to be cruel or mean--I hope we do get to see some of this internal wrestling over what he "has" to do. It wouldn't seem realistic to me if he didn't at least seriously, seriously question "his" burden and wonder about opting out. I won't be sorry if temptation rears its ugly head. I'm not sure whether I believe Harry would give in to it or not. (If he did in Book 6, might there still be time to reconsider in Book 7?) What say others? Will Harry opt out? Will he--at least for awhile-- take the easy way or continue to take the "difficult, good way"? In the end, I have *no* doubt that he'll bear the burden fully, willingly, but I wonder about the time between now & the end.... Siriusly Snapey Susan From drliss at comcast.net Fri Jul 23 12:12:50 2004 From: drliss at comcast.net (drliss at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:12:50 +0000 Subject: Quick question- Lupin's resignation Message-ID: <072320041212.29085.410100C20002747C0000719D22007589429C9C07049D0B@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 107449 Pippin: "As long as I take [the potion] in the week preceding the full moon, I keep my mind when I transform...." -PoA Ch 18 Lupin drinks his potion a week before his transformation in chapter 8, and it seems only one dose is mandatory. ("I made an entire cauldronful," Snape continued, "if you need more." "I should probably take some again tomorrow") So Lupin not only didn't take his potion the night of the Shack, but for six preceding nights--what was he supposed to be upset about then? Pippin who thinks Lupin did take his potion, and was in his right-but -ever-so-evil mind when he transformed. Lissa Okay, this is an ever-so-wonderful Lupin-would-so-thank-me comparison, but I got the impression it was kind of like birth control pills. Take it every day, at the same time, and it's effective. Forget one pill/one potion, and you run the risk of a decreased effectiveness. (Maybe that's why it took so long for him to transform, too.) Now if you'll excuse me, I must flee before a certain werewolf tears me apart for putting him on estrogen. Liss [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Jul 23 16:57:41 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:57:41 -0000 Subject: Umbridge a Hag? was Re: Snape a vampire? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107450 > Brenda: "Lastly why wouldn't Rowling include a vampire character in her story. She has witches, wizards, trolls, giants, werewolves, goblins, elves, centaurs etc. It would be strange to entirely rule out the inclusion of a vampire."< Jim Ferer: > There's no reason for her not to include a vampire if she wants to, but there's no reason ought to include one, either. Do stories have to have representation from every group? How about hags?< Pippin: Yes, how about them? == Harry felt a powerful rush of dislike he could not explain to himself; all he knew was that he loathed everything about her, from her stupid voice to her fluffy pink cardigan [...] She smiled, revealing very pointed teeth. ==== OOP ch 11 Very pointed teeth??! Wouldn't it be just dripping with irony if our Dolores Umbridge is a half-breed or a disguised part-human herself? (I know this list doesn't quite go along with Lexicon Steve in regarding the chocolate frog cards from the video games as canon, but it does mention in the PoA game that hags have been known to disguise themselves as human women.) It would also be amusingly ironic if Fudge gets turned out of office when it's discovered that he hired a hag as his assistant. Right move, wrong reasons. Pippin From andrewgrimwade at hotmail.com Fri Jul 23 13:29:08 2004 From: andrewgrimwade at hotmail.com (aberforth51) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:29:08 -0000 Subject: Attack on Hogwarts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107451 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gelite67" wrote: > > I didn't see this in the archives, so here goes? > > > > What's the likelihood of an attack on Hogwarts in Book 6 or 7? There are a lot of secret ways into the school (maybe > > even some that the Weasley twins didn't discover). > It has been considered before and the general consensus is that the chances are high, with different posters putting forward different evidence/arguments. Dumbledore's Army frequently tops most lists - it must have an eventual function in the story arc. Others, myself included, believe that the Chamber of Secrets still has a part to play. It was Salazar's/Tom's/Voldy's cosy little nook in Hogwarts and since its name implies multiple secrets are hidden there we expect it to take centre stage again. Voldy will come back, I think, and it won't be via Myrtle's bathroom. There's more than one entrance, got to be. The Basilisk quite happily toured the pipes in the school even before the Chamber was unsealed by Ginny. All those pipes that Ron and Harry saw when sliding down from the sink opening - they were *outside* the sealed Chamber. So how did the Basilisk access them? Tunnels to Hogsmeade, tunnels here, tunnels there; ideal for an invading force. I'll be quite disappointed if Hogwarts remains unpenetrated and if (when) it is I expect the showdown to happen in the Chamber. Kneasy Kneasy/Gelite: Like you I am convinced that Hogwarts will be attacked - probably in Book 7, one of the already registered titles being 'HP and the Battle for Hogwarts', which is my choice until JKR tells us otherwise! - Enough hints have been given, as you have pointed out, to make this almost certain. The complexities and changing nature of the castle will make it a fascinating tale both to write and read. I think that it will take Dumbledore's absence - his death or permanent departure - to make the attack possible. The various secret tunnels - 4 of which Filch knows about, so his removal or collusion may be important - will come into play. There must I think be one leading to the Hog's Head (former HQ for goblin rebellion). I agree with Kneasy that the Chamber has a further part to play, there are more secrets to learn about it. But to answer one point above, 'the Chamber *has* been opened - enemies of the heir beware' was the first message in CoS when the basilisk first toured the pipes. It could not start its attacks until Tom (possessing Ginny) opened the Chamber and controlled it using parseltongue; whether this control always required entry to the tunnel that Harry/Ron/Lockhart used we do not know, but the sloughed skin shows that the basilisk used this route; as you say, it had alternative pipework to that in Myrtle's bathroom, although again we don't know its other exit points for the Colin Creevey and Hermione/Penelope attacks. Dumbledore's Army - probably much expanded - will have to find ways of defending the castle, allied to the house-elves (who will all by now be wearing socks!) and various creatures of the Forest, and no doubt with forces arriving from further afield at decisive moments. Just speculating about it whets the appetite so much!! From hannah at starbrightdesigns.net Fri Jul 23 14:40:25 2004 From: hannah at starbrightdesigns.net (Hannah Pasisz) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:40:25 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Attack on Hogwarts? References: Message-ID: <012b01c470c2$fe678520$1d00000a@jewish5yr63qq2> No: HPFGUIDX 107452 > --boyd > could it be the Hogwarts cemetery? still could fit with the whole > spirit of Slytherin/Vapor!Mort theory The cemetary would alot of sense, she didn't allow it to be moved or removed from the POA movie if I (dimly) recall. I haven't cracked the books in a few weeks and I only saw the movie once after it came out as I am still recovering from brain surgery so I can't do as much as I used to. And the other cemetary proved to be fairly creepy and useful for telling the showdown between Harry and the DE's with Voldemort at the end of GOF. Hannah Pasisz ------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.starbrightdesigns.net From kandbmom at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 15:00:15 2004 From: kandbmom at yahoo.com (Lisa) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:00:15 -0000 Subject: Longbottoms' Secret Keeper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107453 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "esmith222002" wrote: > It seems that the assumption is that Harry's parents were in hiding > because of the prophecy. If this is so, then surely the Longbottoms > would have been in hiding also. DD states that it was Voldemort > who 'marked' Harry, suggesting that up to this point it was not known > which child had the 'power to vanquish the Dark Lord'. This poses a > few questions: > 1. If the Longbottoms were protected, how could the Lestranges have > found them?<...snip...> kandbmom:I wondered about this a couple of weeks ago and came to the conclusion that because the Longbottoms were aurors, they were probably out and about leaving Neville with Gran to protect him. It has never been said why the Longbottoms were tortured I believe that the LeStranges knew about the prophecy. They were the closest DEs to Voldermort. I think they were at the Potter home with a whole group of DEs and after the curse back fired and vanquished LV I think they thought they must have to get the other child to reverse the effect. I think the Crucio was meant to get Frank and Alice to tell where Neville was and that it didn't work. I think that DD was probably the secret keeper for the Longbottoms thus, Neville was never found. kanbmom From ariston3344 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 16:45:33 2004 From: ariston3344 at yahoo.com (ariston3344) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:45:33 -0000 Subject: Apparate into Hogwarts? (was Re: Attack on Hogwarts?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107454 Rebecca Trishel wrote: > The "you can't Apparate into Hogswarts grounds" is a really > important HP rule that has been followed in all the books. > Two exceptions: Dobby apparates, and so does the Knight Bus, as I > remember. Maybe Hogwarts will be attacked by apparating house- > elves in buses. ariston: LOL! And don't forget phoenixes. So maybe Hogwarts will be attacked by house-elves bearing phoenixes (is that like Greeks bearing gifts?) riding in Knight Buses. :) Except for the fact that phoenixes are peaceful and seem to be generally good creatures, so I guess DEs and evil house-elves wouldn't get along with them too well. All this makes me wonder, though, why Quirrell didn't have Malfoy just send *Dobby* after the Stone in book 1. What a job JKR has! It's virtually impossible to keep track of all the loose threads... -ariston From ariston3344 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 16:33:05 2004 From: ariston3344 at yahoo.com (ariston3344) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:33:05 -0000 Subject: Doesn't Voldemort know about Snape's loyalty? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107455 I (ariston) wondered: > I'm not at all sure that Snape *has* wormed his way back into > Voldy's good graces. Rebecca replied: > The best indication that he didn't is the fact that Harry guesses > he might've. I mean, c'mon, Harry is usually wrong at this stage > in a mystery. ariston again: You know, you're right -- in general -- but I've been rereading CoS, and I was struck by just how close Harry and Hermione get in ch. 13 ("The Very Secret Diary"): --- begin quote --- But Harry could tell from the arrested look on Hermione's face that she was thinking what he was thinking. "What?" said Ron, looking from one to the other. "Well, the Chamber of Secrets was opened fifty years ago, wasn't it?" he said. "That's what Malfoy said." "Yeah..." said Ron slowly. "And *this diary* is fifty years old," said Hermione, tapping it excitedly. "So?" "Oh, Ron, wake up," snapped Hermione. "We know the person who opened the Chamber last time was expelled *fifty years ago*. We know T.M. Riddle got an award for special services to the school *fifty years ago*. Well, what if Riddle got his special award for *catching the Heir of Slytherin*? His diary would probably tell us everything -- where the Chamber is, and how to open it, and what sort of creature lives in it -- the person who's behind the attacks this time wouldn't want that lying around, would they?" --- end quote --- Granted, what Hermione is saying isn't true in the way that she thinks it is, nor in the way a first-time reader would think. But it's more or less right! Certainly it's moving in the right direction. As for Snape, I'm still not sure what's going on. But that his job is spying *somehow* seems likely from OotP. He says that it's his job to "find out what the Dark Lord is saying to his Death Eaters" in OotP 26, and that fits in with his giving a top secret report to the Order in OotP 4. -ariston From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Fri Jul 23 17:06:19 2004 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:06:19 -0000 Subject: Something wrong with this Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107456 > SSSusan wrote: > MY original point was that some people have claimed > Fudge is a good ESE! candidate because he opposes DD, > is friends w/ Lucius, is unfair to Harry in his trial, > won't take the position of informing the WW that Voldy's > back even though the evidence is clear, etc.-- all the > CLEAR, SURFACEY detail from canon.... > Wouldn't it be interesting if, in the end, we find that > Fudge truly *is* ESE! but not for the reasons typically > stated? What if it's because he really has been > orchestrating truly evil things, such as setting the > Dementors on Harry, being in on the Potters' death or > helping Wormtail somehow, having Barty, Jr. "kissed" > before he could testify so as to protect or hide > something, helping Voldy return? ... > > Why does this NOT reinforce the "people are complex" theme? > > Meltowne had listed some places where things which > happened in canon *could* have included Fudge behind the > scenes or in ways not fully revealed. Yes, there's some > speculation in it, but these also include incidents where > Fudge was at least present or an active participant Wait, what if Fudge really *IS* Voldemort? We've never seen them in the same scene at the same time! -- Matt, who still thinks that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 23 17:31:26 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:31:26 -0000 Subject: Something wrong with this Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107457 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Matt" wrote: > > SSSusan wrote: > > MY original point was that some people have claimed > > Fudge is a good ESE! candidate because he opposes DD, > > is friends w/ Lucius, is unfair to Harry in his trial, > > won't take the position of informing the WW that Voldy's > > back even though the evidence is clear, etc.-- all the > > CLEAR, SURFACEY detail from canon.... > > Wouldn't it be interesting if, in the end, we find that > > Fudge truly *is* ESE! but not for the reasons typically > > stated? What if it's because he really has been > > orchestrating truly evil things, such as setting the > > Dementors on Harry, being in on the Potters' death or > > helping Wormtail somehow, having Barty, Jr. "kissed" > > before he could testify so as to protect or hide > > something, helping Voldy return? ... > > > > Why does this NOT reinforce the "people are complex" theme? > > > > Meltowne had listed some places where things which > > happened in canon *could* have included Fudge behind the > > scenes or in ways not fully revealed. Yes, there's some > > speculation in it, but these also include incidents where > > Fudge was at least present or an active participant Matt: > Wait, what if Fudge really *IS* Voldemort? We've never seen them in > the same scene at the same time! > > -- Matt, who still thinks that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. SSSusan: Well, maybe you're intending to be funny and I'm just not seeing it, but I don't get where this comes from! I mean, there are theories, hypotheses, arguments all over this board, some of them based totally on wishful thinking and not one whit on canon, while I & others have at least presented SEVERAL situations where Fudge was present and could have been involved in ways that would point to his being evil. How does that translate into my arguing something as outlandish as Fudge = Voldemort? *Of course* sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. In this case there are a LOT of circumstances which are at least questionable. Yesterday Joyfulstoryteller said something I liked: "once is accident, twice is coincidence, three times is enemy action." As more people wrote in with info from the books about Fudge, some of us felt we'd ended up beyond the "accident" or "coincidence" stage. If you disagree with me, that's fine & dandy. You have several options for what to do with that: ignore me; point out canon refutation; explain why my theory holds no water. You don't have to write in just to belittle my position by equating it to something I never said or implied. Siriusly Snapey Susan From lb140900 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 18:17:14 2004 From: lb140900 at yahoo.com (Louis Badalament) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 18:17:14 -0000 Subject: The HBP is DEAD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107458 Rebecca, Interesting points... but consider Prisoner of Azkaban, the only other book whose title shows a story 'centering' around one specific character - as Half Blood Prince seems to. Remember how until Book 3, Sirius Black was just a stray name mentioned once in passing. Notice, also, how 'reserved' the Wizarding World is about big things in general - take Voldemort. Nobody but Dumbledore was really aware that Tom Riddle *became* Voldemort (consider Arthur Weasely's reaction when Ginny came back from the Chamber of Secrets.) You would think that things like a conquerer's childhood would warrant great material for the wizarding history books, but no; wizards seem to like to sweep 'unpleasant' facets of history under the rug... what do you think that whole thing with Umbridge and Fudge was all about in the fifth book? They choose not to know, not to delve too deeply or dwell on 'upsetting' things... even when more than a decade passes. Only when the problem actually slaps them in the face do they bother to acknowledge it, but only as much as they absolutely MUST. Thus, even though Black was made out (falsely) to be a Horrible Thing in Harry's life, (suspected of being Voldemort's second-in- command, if you remember!) - no one mentions it to Harry, whether not to 'upset' him, or because they feel it's 'old news.' Harry, himself, never really asks for the whole story of his parents' untimely demise, contenting himself with Hagrid's abbrieviated version, and only unintentionally overhears it from Fudge. So, even with stuff that should be 'big' in Harry Potter's world, perhaps even someone as big as a Prince, no one bothers to fuss over him in any way until some sort of danger or intrigue centers around him, as it did with Sirius Black. Furthermore, Rebecca, I don't see 'Half Blood' as being the Prince's offical title any more than Sirius' 'title' was 'The Prisoner of Azkaban.' When all is said and done, Sirius was just A prisoner of Azkaban - it housed many other inmates. And while I don't know about the Prince being "more powerful than Harry, Dumbledore, and the Order of Phoenix combined," but I have faith that he'll add a lot to the plot; J.K. is ususally good about these sorts of things. And who's to say that anyone's going to 'seek him out?' Perhaps the Prince is a villian, and Our Heroes will struggle to avoid him, or fight him, or prevent Voldemort from making use of him, as happened with the Philosopher's Stone. I'll grant that it's *possible* the Prince is dead... but I find it doubtful. That isn't her style. So why, as you ask, did she leave out the hyphen? I couldn't tell you. Perhaps the Prince doesn't like hyphens, and is rich enough to get people not to use it in conjunction with him, I don't know. Anyway, that's my two cents, tell me what you think. - Louis Badalament II P.S. - Did you ever notice, on her website, that J.K. Rowling attaches the same level of seriousness to 'Heir of Griffyndor' as 'Pillar of Storge?' From sherriola at earthlink.net Fri Jul 23 18:32:55 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:32:55 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Apparate into Hogwarts? (was Re: Attack on Hogwarts?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00ca01c470e3$797b3020$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 107459 Rebecca Trishel wrote: > The "you can't Apparate into Hogswarts grounds" is a really > important HP rule that has been followed in all the books. > Two exceptions: Dobby apparates, and so does the Knight Bus, as I > remember. Maybe Hogwarts will be attacked by apparating house- > elves in buses. Sherry But we only see Dobby apparating inside Hogwarts, from one location to another. Not from the outside off the grounds to the inside. And the Knight Bus stops at Hogsmeade in OOTP, and they have to walk to the castle from there. Sherry G From Meliss9900 at aol.com Fri Jul 23 18:26:24 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 14:26:24 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius's Will Message-ID: <77.2ef41821.2e32b250@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107460 In a message dated 07/22/2004 9:56:26 AM Central Daylight Time, griffin782002 at yahoo.com writes: > . Well I suggest, just some other members to cut a large piece of the wall > with that nasty portait of Mrs Black, together with that stupid tapestry to > the Malfoys and let them enjoy her screams and proud ancestry all day, oh, yes > acompanied by Kreacher. It's sound evil, does it ? ;-) > > Griffin782002 > I doubt Mrs Black would scream if she were given to the Malfoys. She'd have no reason to; no "Blood traitors" or "Mudbloods" mucking the place up. Kreachur would probably be in 7th heaven as well. He'd have a "proper" family to attend. Although cutting that portion of the wall out to get rid of her is a good idea. I guess that it didn't occur to the order members because it seems to be a Muggle answer to a magical problem. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From trishel2 at hotmail.com Fri Jul 23 17:46:50 2004 From: trishel2 at hotmail.com (rebeccatrishel) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:46:50 -0000 Subject: Apparate into Hogwarts? (was Re: Attack on Hogwarts?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107461 > ariston: > LOL! And don't forget phoenixes. So maybe Hogwarts will be > attacked by house-elves bearing phoenixes (is that like Greeks > bearing gifts?) riding in Knight Buses. :) Except for the fact that > phoenixes are peaceful and seem to be generally good creatures, so I > guess DEs and evil house-elves wouldn't get along with them too well. > > All this makes me wonder, though, why Quirrell didn't have Malfoy > just send *Dobby* after the Stone in book 1. What a job JKR has! > It's virtually impossible to keep track of all the loose threads... > > -ariston Rebecca Trishel: Well, you could argue that LV could've gathered all his DEs together when he was possessing Quirrell, and returned then, but... he didn't. To greedy, wanting that stone. Anyway, I bet even Dobby couldn't have gotten the stone from the elaborate traps DD set up (though he might've been able to get it out of the Mirror..) I don't think you can Apparate just anywhere; you have to know exactly where you're going, or it would be like, "I'm Apparating to wherever Voldemort is!" *poof* "Found 'em!" Of course, house-elf apparition could be different. I bet the house- elves in Hogwarts find Apparition really helps them with their chores (though it is noisy). By the way, I really do believe there will be a house-elf army sometime in the books. No idea when. --Rebecca Trishel From ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 19:03:17 2004 From: ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com (ohneill_2001) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 19:03:17 -0000 Subject: Ginny and the entrancing Veil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107462 > > > > Now Cory: > > > > I don't know whether young TR saw MM's death or not, but for > > purposes of your argument, I would argue that it does not matter. > > > > The person who possessed Ginny (if "person" is the right word), was > > not just the 16-year-old Riddle. It was the memory of Riddle's 16- > > year-old self, but it was also a person that knew Riddle / > > Voldemort's future, including the killing of Harry's parents and > > his demise by Harry. Thus, if we are theorizing that Ginny was > > mesmerized by the veil because of her possession by Riddle, it > > should not matter whether Riddle saw MM's death. She could have > > just as easily have been tainted by the memory of the countless > > other deaths that Riddle / Voldemort caused throughout his life. > > > dcgmck again: > > Hm... I see what you're saying. In fact, if Ginny's possession had > had the effect I initially suggested, she shouldn't have had any > trouble seeing the threstrals. Cory again: Perhaps, although this assumes that being entranced by the veil and seeing the thestrals are triggered by *exactly* the same thing, which is not necessarily true. We know that seeing the thestrals is triggered by *seeing* death. It is possible that entrancement by the veil results from something else relating to death, other than physically seeing it. In other words -- maybe being "tainted" by her possession by Riddle does not constitute "seeing" death (thus, she can't see the thestrals), but still has the effect of causing her to be mesmerized by the veil. dcgmck again: > > Still, I don't think the memory of Riddle knew any more of what his > future self had done than what Ginny told him in the diary before > Harry started communicating with him. Of course, then Riddle > possessed Ginny again... OK. But Harry knew even less than Ginny > did in his second year at Hogwarts. OK, I'm confused again. How > would the memory have learned enough to contaminate Ginny, unless it > was outside of the visible narrative line while at the Malfoy estate? Cory again: The more I think about this, the more I think I was wrong in my last post. My initial thought was that, althought the diary was made by Riddle when he was 16, it somehow "grew" with Riddle/Voldemort as he matured, and therefore the Riddle that was in the diary had knowledge of everything that Voldemort was to become. Upon further reflection (and having looked back at the chapter in COS where Riddle was talking to Harry in the Chamber), I think I might have been wrong about this. --Cory From quigonginger at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 19:04:23 2004 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 19:04:23 -0000 Subject: FILK: I make things grow Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107463 "I Make Things Grow" to the tune of "I Caint Say No" from Rodgers and Hammerstein's Oklahoma. To CMC (one more to check off the list!) (side note to CMC-that one I checked on was already done, so here's another. Ah, well, such is life) Sprout sings: It's really just a question of knowing what to do. I've been repotting plants since I was ten. I know each plant's lifecycle, and when fertilizer's due, And just how much to water each, and when. I know my limelight isn't brightly lit, But if you need some Mandrakes- I'm a hit! I'm just a girl who makes things grow. A horticultural fix. If you should say, "We need one so" I'll do some grafts and make six. When a first year tried to prune a plant And accidently gives too hard a whack, I just smile and take a point from him, And get reserves from greenhouse five out back. I'm just a fool for lawns to mow. I'm dirty without complaint. Puttering without restraint. With the patience of a saint. I make things grow. What should I care if my nails get all dirty? Or my back gets hurty? This is what I do. I have to beam with pride at my prize elderberries Which cure dysentaries. This is what I do. If my headmaster says that we need some Mandrakes Or the petrified students die. I just pop pink earmuffs upon my head- Ready to fly! I'm just a girl who makes things grow. Make things grow healthy and tall. Some say it's a long row to hoe, I'm out here having a ball. If it's hot, I keep the seedlings cool- It's not too humid out in greenhouse three. Then I get a load of mooncalf stool And watch them as they grow up magicly. I love to see things in a row Growing without a relapse. Weeding with well-aimed wand taps. World's greatest hobby, perhaps. I make things grow. I'm just a girl who makes things grow For decoration or food. Quality potions parts, just so. So Snape won't come all unglued. Though I rest to watch a Quidditch match, Or if a Hufflepuff to me should run, I have a farming itch to scratch- Cuz horticulture is my kind of fun. Raising things sets my heart aglow. It makes me giddy and faint. Gardening without restraint. Art using flowers for paint. I make things grow. Ginger, who should be packing for an 11 day vacation. I shudder to think how far behind I will be upon my return. From kawfhw at earthlink.net Fri Jul 23 19:12:42 2004 From: kawfhw at earthlink.net (Ken and Faith Wallace) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:12:42 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The HBP is DEAD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107464 > From: "rebeccatrishel" > And another thing: if the HBP was some wizard living in England, why > does he have a whole title? He must have something important to do > with the Volde/HP conflict, the main storyline in our books. At this > point in the series, the second-to-last book, he must be someone > extremely important. In fact, someone more powerful than Harry. > Someone more powerful than Dumbledore. Somebody more powerful than > Harry, Dumbledore, and the Order of Phoenix combined, or why would > they trouble themselves about him? And is there room for somebody > that powerful in the HP universe? Why hasn't anyone mentioned him > before? I agree with your logic that the book might not be centered around who the HBP is - and that the HBP is probably not living. I'm in the middle of rereading all the books in light of learning the title of Book 6 and I noticed something - Sir Nick Bloody Baron What if the HBP is a ghost? Faith [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 19:14:21 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 19:14:21 -0000 Subject: Doesn't Voldemort know about Snape's loyalty? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107465 > > ariston wonders: > > I'm not at all sure that Snape *has* wormed his way back into > > Voldy's good graces. > >Rebecca Trishel: > The best indication that he didn't is the fact that Harry guesses he > might've. I mean, c'mon, Harry is usually wrong at this stage in a > mystery. I firmly believe Voldemort isn't stupid enough to take > Snape back, Snape isn't stupid enough to go back, and that Dumbledore > isn't stupid enough to send him. I could be completely wrong, > though ... it's all speculation. > Neri: If you define the mystery as "has Snape wormed his way back into Voldy's good graces?" then you are right. But if you take as given that he had, then the mystery is "how did he do that?" which is IMO an even better mystery. But I do believe that Snape didn't completely wormed his way back into Voldy's good graces. The proof: he didn't know about the plot to lure Harry to the DoM, and he wasn't ordered to do it himself, although from Voldy's point of view he was perfectly situated to do just that. So my guess is that in Voldy's mind, Snape is curently on probation. I could be completely wrong, of course. it's all speculation. Neri From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Fri Jul 23 19:18:51 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 19:18:51 -0000 Subject: Apparate into Hogwarts? (was Re: Attack on Hogwarts?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107466 > Rebecca Trishel: > > By the way, I really do believe there will be a > house-elf army sometime in the books. No idea when. So after they take out a DE, do they have to apologize and start hitting themselves over the head repeatedly? I can imagine house-elves who mischievously & (comically) prank the invading army so that they can never make it inside the castle. You know, turn the doorknobs into portkeys that transport the DE to the dungeon of the MoM, apparate away from two DEs who hit each other with their spells, food fights, that sort of thing. Would be good for the eventual movie and for the young readers! --boyd From jferer at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 19:35:54 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 19:35:54 -0000 Subject: Umbridge a Hag? was Re: Snape a vampire? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107467 Pippin: Yes, how about [hags]? [quoting OoP]== Harry felt a powerful rush of dislike he could not explain to himself; all he knew was that he loathed everything about her, from her stupid voice to her fluffy pink cardigan [...] She smiled, revealing very pointed teeth. ==== OOP ch 11 Very pointed teeth??! Wouldn't it be just dripping with irony if our Dolores Umbridge is a half-breed or a disguised part-human herself? (I know this list doesn't quite go along with Lexicon Steve in regarding the chocolate frog cards from the video games as canon, but it does mention in the PoA game that hags have been known to disguise themselves as human women.) I think this is a possibility. How often have bigoted demagogues turned out to have a skeleton in their closet concerning their background? I would like to know more about hags, too. There was a reference to hags ordering raw liver (eeww), so if Dolores is a full-blooded hag, would someone notice disgusting dietary choices? No way to know. This speculation kind of has to be held off to the side for more information, but it's a fun speculation. Dolores needs to work on her disguise, doesn't she? Jim Ferer From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Fri Jul 23 19:39:40 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 19:39:40 -0000 Subject: Doesn't Voldemort know about Snape's loyalty? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107468 > Neri wrote: > > But I do believe that Snape didn't completely wormed his way back > into Voldy's good graces. The proof: he didn't know about the plot to > lure Harry to the DoM, and he wasn't ordered to do it himself, > although from Voldy's point of view he was perfectly situated to do > just that. So my guess is that in Voldy's mind, Snape is curently on > probation. I could be completely wrong, of course. it's all > speculation. Here's another one: if LV still trusts Snape, then why use Barty Jr. in GoF? Snape was, after all, already there. I think it's clear that Snape is no longer a trusted DE, and it's likely he's the one who has left never to return, according to LV. So who or what is he spying on? Lucius and other known DEs? The MoM? Gringott's? With Weasleys infiltrating both the MoM and Gringott's, and LV perhaps making it known to his loyal DEs that Snape is a turncoat, I'd submit it must be some currently unknowable option. Given that in OoP he has apparently been absent for some time and is a source of considerable interest upon his return to Grimmauld, he must be going somewhere far away. Perhaps talking to other possible allies like Hagrid did? Oh, no, did I just bump into another vampire discussion? --boyd having way too much fun today From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Fri Jul 23 20:23:59 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:23:59 -0400 Subject: Longbottoms' Secret Keeper Message-ID: <002901c470f2$fda4f7a0$a962d1d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 107469 kanbmom said " It has never been said why the Longbottoms were tortured I believe that the LeStranges knew about the prophecy. " DuffyPoo I think it is stated in OotP that the Longbottoms were tortured for information about Voldemort's whereabouts after he attacked HP and vanished. The Lestranges apparently committed the torture, whether Barty Crouch, Jr was there or not, he was accused of being, at any rate. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Fri Jul 23 20:25:25 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:25:25 -0400 Subject: Longbottoms' Secret Keeper Message-ID: <003601c470f3$3070d000$a962d1d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 107470 kanbmom said " It has never been said why the Longbottoms were tortured I believe that the LeStranges knew about the prophecy. " DuffyPoo I think it is stated in OotP that the Longbottoms were tortured for information about Voldemort's whereabouts after he attacked HP and vanished. The Lestranges apparently committed the torture, whether Barty Crouch, Jr was there or not, he was accused of being, at any rate. (My apologies if this shows up twice, my Norton thingy said it wasn't sent.) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pcaehill2 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 23 20:40:09 2004 From: pcaehill2 at sbcglobal.net (pcaehill2) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 20:40:09 -0000 Subject: When Harry met Sally (was: Re: Incomplete Prophecy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107471 SSSusan wrote: >Personally--and most here know that I just adore Harry, so I'm not >saying this to be cruel or mean--I hope we do get to see some of >this internal wrestling over what he "has" to do. It wouldn't seem >realistic to me if he didn't at least seriously, seriously >question "his" burden and wonder about opting out. Pam wonders: I think it will be on his mind, but will Harry even have the *luxury* of wrestling with this problem, now that LV & his followers are revealed? The action/attacks will be flying "thick & fast", I think, and Harry & the rest of the DA will be on the front lines (or very near). It'll be difficult for him to be thinking, "Why me? Don't I get a say in this?" when his nearest & dearest are under attack. I think H. may be feeling guilty for having involved his friends in the LV-staged wild-goose-chase at the Ministry, and exposing them to danger. And with the Order having come to his aid (and Sirius giving his life) to defend him, H. at least knows that he's not the only one risking his life. Pam, who thinks that Harry was in his head too much in Book 6--and that he learned his lesson about acting rashly. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 23 20:59:05 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 20:59:05 -0000 Subject: Will Harry muse or be too busy fighting? (was: When Harry met Sally) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107472 SSSusan wrote: > >Personally--and most here know that I just adore Harry, so I'm not > >saying this to be cruel or mean--I hope we do get to see some of > >this internal wrestling over what he "has" to do. It wouldn't seem > >realistic to me if he didn't at least seriously, seriously > >question "his" burden and wonder about opting out. Pam wonders: > I think it will be on his mind, but will Harry even have the > *luxury* of wrestling with this problem, now that LV & his > followers are revealed? The action/attacks will be flying "thick & > fast", I think, and Harry & the rest of the DA will be on the front > lines (or very near). It'll be difficult for him to be > thinking, "Why me? Don't I get a say in this?" when his nearest & > dearest are under attack. I think H. may be feeling guilty for > having involved his friends in the LV-staged wild-goose-chase at > the Ministry, and exposing them to danger. And with the Order > having come to his aid (and Sirius giving his life) to defend him, > H. at least knows that he's not the only one risking his life. > > Pam, who thinks that Harry was in his head too much in Book 6--and > that he learned his lesson about acting rashly. SSSusan: Interesting thoughts, Pam. Hopefully Harry does realize that he's not alone in this, not the only one fighting. After all, it's not just Voldy who'll be fighting for the other side. I also am sure you're right that Harry will be feeling guilt, yet again, over the danger people were exposed to "simply" by being his friends/loved ones. I wonder, though, about the attacks flying thick & fast. I would love to hear others' opinions about whether we will, indeed, *finally* see some battle action or whether that will be held off yet again, 'til Book 7. It seems time for it, but I thought it was time for it after the graveyard scene/Harry & DD's announcement of Voldy's return at the end of 4th year. Yet we were strung along for nearly the whole of Book 5, with Voldy still lying low, and all that talk about a weapon, until we finally saw one battle and one death in the MoM. Not that I'm necessarily anxious for carnage, you understand, but it surprised me that there was so little in OoP. Anyone else care to offer an opinion of whether Harry will spend much time wrestling with "his" burden & his choice to accept it, or whether there'll be little time for such musings because of all the Voldy-DE attacks we're sure to see in HBP? Siriusly Snapey Susan From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 21:04:30 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 21:04:30 -0000 Subject: Umbridge a Hag? was Re: Snape a vampire? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107473 > Jim Ferer: > > There's no reason for her not to include a vampire if she wants > to, but there's no reason ought to include one, either. Do stories > have to have representation from every group? How about > hags?< > > Pippin: > Yes, how about them? > == > Harry felt a powerful rush of dislike he could not explain to > himself; all he knew was that he loathed everything about her, > from her stupid voice to her fluffy pink cardigan [...] She smiled, > revealing very pointed teeth. > ==== > OOP ch 11 > > Very pointed teeth??! Wouldn't it be just dripping with irony if > our Dolores Umbridge is a half-breed or a disguised > part-human herself? (I know this list doesn't quite go along with > Lexicon Steve in regarding the chocolate frog cards from the > video games as canon, but it does mention in the PoA game that > hags have been known to disguise themselves as human > women.) > > It would also be amusingly ironic if Fudge gets turned out of > office when it's discovered that he hired a hag as his assistant. > Right move, wrong reasons. > > Pippin Neri: Hmmm, together with ESE!Lupin that's already two half-humans/diguised- as-humans that are evil. Of course we still have Hagrid as a good half-human, and vampire!Snape is perhaps not evil, but not exactly good either. I feel that with all the anti-bigotry theme of HP we can afford at most one evil half-human. Neri From lbiles at flash.net Fri Jul 23 21:14:56 2004 From: lbiles at flash.net (leb2323) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 21:14:56 -0000 Subject: Longbottoms' Secret Keeper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107474 esmith222002 wrote: > > It seems that the assumption is that Harry's parents were in hiding because of the prophecy. If this is so, then surely the Longbottoms would have been in hiding also. kandbmom wrote: I wondered about this a couple of weeks ago and came > to the conclusion that because the Longbottoms were aurors, they were probably out and about leaving Neville with Gran to protect him. ---snip--- > I think the Crucio was meant to get Frank and Alice to tell where > Neville was and that it didn't work. I think that DD was probably > the secret keeper for the Longbottoms thus, Neville was never found. leb: I've had this thought dancing through my head lately and this thread brought it up again. The details aren't very well thought out but here are the basics: I think we're going about this the wrong way. The Potters had a secret keeper to keep *themselves* hidden from the bad guys. On the other hand, I think that the Longbottoms (most probably Alice in particular) were themselves the secret keepers to keep *Neville* hidden. This could also explain why Alice keeps giving Neville the droobles wrappers -- she's letting him know that she's still keeping his secret even though she's incapacitated (probably makes the job a lot easier that way!). I would love to get some feedback on this idea. leb From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Fri Jul 23 21:34:39 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 21:34:39 -0000 Subject: Will Harry muse or be too busy fighting? (was: When Harry met Sally) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107475 > SSSusan wrote: > > I wonder, though, about the attacks flying thick & fast. I would > love to hear others' opinions about whether we will, indeed, > *finally* see some battle action or whether that will be held off yet > again, 'til Book 7. It seems time for it, but I thought it was time > for it after the graveyard scene/Harry & DD's announcement of Voldy's > return at the end of 4th year. Yet we were strung along for nearly > the whole of Book 5, with Voldy still lying low, and all that talk > about a weapon, until we finally saw one battle and one death in the > MoM. > > Not that I'm necessarily anxious for carnage, you understand, but it > surprised me that there was so little in OoP. > > Anyone else care to offer an opinion of whether Harry will spend much > time wrestling with "his" burden & his choice to accept it, or > whether there'll be little time for such musings because of all the > Voldy-DE attacks we're sure to see in HBP? > > Siriusly Snapey Susan Unless JKR decides to become an action writer and have attacks going for hundreds of pages, Harry will have some time for reflection. The question is whether he'll be wrestling with his burden during that time. IMHO Harry still has to get to the point in book 7 where we see him as a true hero who fully understands and accepts his burden, no matter the cost. That's the essence of choice, isn't it? So there's two things that have to happen before that: Harry has to figure out *how* to defeat LV, and Harry has to come to terms with the *consequences* of facing and/or defeating LV--both for him and the world. I expect Harry will spend chunks of the last two books on those two topics. Perhaps the "how" part will fall in his lap a bit, as usual. But for choice to exist, he'll have to really know what he's up against, not to mention *why* it's important. So will there be attacks and a bit more carnage? I think there has to be for Harry to see *why*. And will Harry think about whether he wants to follow through with his choice? Yes, certainly before the end. While I've given up hope of Harry surviving the series, I just hope that his friends don't have to pay the price, as well. --boyd From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 21:40:54 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 21:40:54 -0000 Subject: Doesn't Voldemort know about Snape's loyalty? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107476 "boyd_smythe" wrote: > > I think it's clear that Snape is no longer a trusted DE, and it's > likely he's the one who has left never to return, according to LV. > > So who or what is he spying on? Lucius and other known DEs? The MoM? > Gringott's? > Neri: As many have pointed out in the past, having DD by the end of GoF saying to Snape (paraphrasing from memory) "You know what I must ask from you... if you are ready" and the pale Snape (who had just shown his dark mark to Fudge) saying "I am" and sweeps out, all this dramatic effect seems rather wasted on Lucius, or on anyone other than Voldy. Besides, would Lucius have any relations with someone that Voldy had declared dead meat? I doubt it. But it is very likely that Snape had Lucius putting a good word for him, thus bying a chance to recite his excuses before Voldy AKs him on the spot. Neri From McGregorMax at ec.rr.com Fri Jul 23 22:06:06 2004 From: McGregorMax at ec.rr.com (mcmaxslb) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:06:06 -0000 Subject: Something wrong with this Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107477 --- Matt wrote: > Wait, what if Fudge really *IS* Voldemort? We've never seen them in > the same scene at the same time! I don't think that Fudge is in league with Voldemort. What you have with Fudge is what you have with allot of people in government and other huge organizations. You have someone promoted above their abilities and as long as things are quiet he can cope. But when a crises happens that he knows he can't cope with instead of stepping aside and letting someone who can take over, he pretends that the problem does not exist. And people like this will go to great lengths to do this. This happens in RL all the time and it is a bit of RL in the books that JKR does well. Now in the WBD chat, JKR said that the MoM will be getting a new leader, the war leader that the WW now needs. Maybe he will be the HBP? From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Jul 23 22:17:02 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:17:02 -0000 Subject: Umbridge a Hag? was Re: Snape a vampire? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107478 > Neri: > > Hmmm, together with ESE!Lupin that's already two half-humans/diguised- as-humans that are evil. Of course we still have Hagrid as a good half-human, and vampire!Snape is perhaps not evil, but not exactly good either. I feel that with all the anti-bigotry theme of HP we can afford at most one evil half-human. > There's Madame Maxime, Firenze and the mer-people, too. And the rest of the centaurs behave themselves most of the time, as much as humans do. The *disguised* half-humans do seem to be ripe for evil, but if Hagrid's reformed attitude: "Yeh don' have ter be ashamed of what yeh are," is right, then we might expect those who *are* ashamed to wander astray. Pippin From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 22:22:05 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:22:05 -0000 Subject: Will Harry muse or be too busy fighting? (was: When Harry met Sally) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107479 " wrote: snip. While I've given up hope of Harry surviving the series, I just hope > that his friends don't have to pay the price, as well. > Alla: Don't give up hope, Boyd. :o) JKR might surprise you. For now I am quite confident that except symbolic death, no other kind of death will catch Harry at the end of the series. Of course JKR may surprise me as well. But as some poster stated, Harry will definitely go into final battle expecting that this will be his final hour. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 22:40:07 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:40:07 -0000 Subject: When Harry met Sally (was: Re: Incomplete Prophecy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107480 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: snip. > What say others? Will Harry opt out? Will he--at least for awhile- - > take the easy way or continue to take the "difficult, good way"? > > In the end, I have *no* doubt that he'll bear the burden fully, > willingly, but I wonder about the time between now & the end.... > Alla: I am afraid not. Not because I don't want him to try to opt out. Simply because I don't believe that JKR will go in that direction. It will be too complex character-driven writing for her. For Harry to try and get out of this, it will be necessary for JKR to make Harry dislike Dumbledore even more than he does at the moment and accrodingly to paint Dumbledore in even more grey manner than she did by now and I think that was the end of the greyness at the end of OOP (I am one of those people who believe that Dumbledore did tell Harry everything about the prophecy.) I think that at the most Harry will think about it for a few pages and decides that he is going to continue saving the world. I will be INCREDIBLY HAPPY to be proven wrong though. I think Harry's temptation will be fascinating plotline, especially because I think that he deserves to tell to Wisarding World to leave him alone and go look for another saviour other than sixteen year old boy. :o) But of course, if the saviour would have been an adult, half of the charm of the series would have been gone. From sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 23:13:44 2004 From: sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com (sevenhundredandthirteen) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 23:13:44 -0000 Subject: Will Harry possess Voldemort? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107481 If Voldemort can possess Harry and lead him to experience such agonising pain that Harry wants to die, should we expect to see Harry learning the art of possession himself? If one seconds worth of love causes Voldemort to recoil instantly, surely Harry possessing him could prove to be the way to make Voldemort *want* to die. Voldemort considers death to be the worst thing in the world and something which he has taken extensive measures to protect himself from. Maybe part of the way Voldemort will be defeated involves him accepting and wanting death. Maybe Voldemort is only immortal so long as he fears death. Maybe Harry possessing him will cause him so much pain he gives up his attachment to immortality and, like Harry, wants to die as a mercy. If the dreams can work both ways (and both Harry and Voldemort can follow each other into one another's heads), it seems to follow that the possession can work both ways as well. Will we see Harry choose to possess Voldemort, even though he knows what colossal pain it will cause him to be joined to such a hideous beast? Any ideas? ~<(Laurasia)>~ From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 23:18:19 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 23:18:19 -0000 Subject: Umbridge a Hag? was Re: Snape a vampire? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107482 > > Neri: > > > > Hmmm, together with ESE!Lupin that's already two > half-humans/diguised- as-humans that are evil. Of course we > still have Hagrid as a good half-human, and vampire!Snape is > perhaps not evil, but not exactly good either. I feel that with all > the > anti-bigotry theme of HP we can afford at most one evil > half-human. > > > Pippin: > > There's Madame Maxime, Firenze and the mer-people, too. And > the rest of the centaurs behave themselves most of the time, as > much as humans do. The *disguised* half-humans do seem to > be ripe for evil, but if Hagrid's reformed attitude: "Yeh don' have > ter be ashamed of what yeh are," is right, then we might expect > those who *are* ashamed to wander astray. > Neri: Yes, now it really makes sense. But still, with wereolf!Lupin, vampire!Snape, half-giant!Hagrid and half-hag!Umbridge it starting to look like being just plain human is a disqualifier for a teacher at Hogwarts. I guess Prof. Flitwick could be part house-elf, Sprout a part-Goblin, DD a part-bumblebee and Trelawney clearly has a just a tiny bit of centaur blood which explains her erratic prophetic performances. But what is McGonagall? Could she be the granddaughter of the Loch-Ness kelpie? And of course, since they're all apparently ashamed of their mixed origin, they must be all evil. A frightening thought. Neri From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 23:34:06 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 23:34:06 -0000 Subject: James, the Head Boy, but not a Prefect In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107483 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gelite67" wrote: > Hagrid told Harry in SS that James was Head Boy and Lily was Head > Girl. But in OOP, we find out that James was not a Prefect; in > fact, Harry is comforted by the thought. I would think you couldn't > be Head Boy unless you were a Prefect first. But I guess DD can do > whatever he likes! > > Angie Asian_lovr2: In our past discussions of this, with the help of someone very knowledgable, we have established that Head Boy is not an extension of the Prefects. In other words, he is not Captain of the Prefects. Although at some school, that would be valid. It appears that at Hogwarts Bestship (boy/girl) is more of a general academic honor along the lines of Valedictorian. Not necesarily identical to Valedictorian, just more along that line. In that sense, it is literally the 'best' boy and girl in the school, although I suspect it based on more than pure academics. Whereas Prefects are chosen not for their overal excellence but more for their maturity and reliability. Also, note that Prefect is a house honor, and Bestboy is school wide; one Bestboy and one Bestgirl for the entire school. That said, the people who are mature and reliable who are likely to become Prefects are probably also excellent students, so frequently it will be a former Prefect who becomes Bestboy. But that is only coincidental. Just a few thoughts. Steve/asian_lovr2 From silmariel at telefonica.net Thu Jul 22 23:44:14 2004 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (silmariel) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 01:44:14 +0200 Subject: Snape, Spy, Occlumens Re: [HPforGrownups] (was Still wondering why Snape trusts DD!) (was: James the Berk?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200407230144.14870.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 107484 Carol earlier: > > > > Moreover, he can't know that Snape is an occlumens or Snape >> would be unable to spy on him or observe him or attend meetings > (whatever he's doing) without giving himself away. Carolina replied: > > > I can't agree with this. If Voldemort is using Snape as a spy, he > should know that he needs to be an occlumens to do that work. One > can't be under the nose of a legilimens for 14 years without being an > occlumens and Voldemort should know, or should be asking himself why > DD hasn't detected him in 14 years if he is not one. > Carol responds: > Oops. I guess I should watch my pronouns. I didn't mean that > *Voldemort* is using snape as a spy. I did. > I meant that Snape is spying on *him.* Also. > The whole idea of his being an occlumens is that he can block > his mind against a Legilimens like Voldemort --or Dumbledore The whole idea of being an occlumens is being able to spy under radar. If Snape's mind is open to Dumbledore's by default, he is of no use to Voldie. --and, as someone pointed > out with a quote to back it up, Snape can allow the Legilimens to see > what he wants him to see but hide or block what he doesn't. A good post, but applicable both sides of the spy game.. > As for why > Dumbledore hasn't detected him, that doesn't even make sense, since it > was Dumbledore who asked Snape to teach Harry occlumency. DD not only > knows that Snape is an occlumens, IMO, he probably taught him occlumency. Your point was Voldemort didn't know. If V didn't know, he couldn't know that DD knew/had taught S, so, rephrasing, [...]and Voldemort should know, or (Voldemort) should be asking himself why DD hasn't detected him in 14 years if he is not one. > So, to clarify, I repeat: Voldemort can't know that Snape is an > occlumens or Snape would be unable to attend meetings (or whatever he > does) without being suspected as a spy. (As it is, I'm pretty sure > that Voldemort suspects his loyalty for other reasons, and that he is > "the one I believe has left me forever"--but he seems to have > convinced Lucius Malfoy, at least, that he's actually still loyal.) Snape is spying for Voldemort or pretending he does so. If he is not an occlumens he is of no use to Voldemort and shouldn't be attending those DE parties and later come home with a legillimens as DD to open read those secret parties. Voldemorts knows that Snape is an occlumens or Snape is no use. How can he pretend to be 'good' in front of DD without being an occlumens? If you don't buy that Snape is a double agent, that's another question. Carolina From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sat Jul 24 00:40:30 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 00:40:30 -0000 Subject: Will Harry muse or be too busy fighting? (was: When Harry met Sally) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107485 > > SSSusan wrote: > > > > I wonder, though, about the attacks flying thick & fast. I would > > love to hear others' opinions about whether we will, indeed, > > *finally* see some battle action or whether that will be held off > yet > > again, 'til Book 7. > > Not that I'm necessarily anxious for carnage, you understand, but it > > surprised me that there was so little in OoP. > > > > --boyd: > Unless JKR decides to become an action writer and have attacks going > for hundreds of pages, Harry will have some time for reflection. > Neri: I'm thinking at least the first half of Book 6 will be the battle of minds with Voldy through the scar link. In OotP JKR had hardly tapped the dramatic potential of such a battle. Just think the Occlumency lessons in OotP, but put Voldy instead of Snape. Then remember that this could happen at any hour and any place. I really think the Occlumency lessons were only a teaser. In Book 6 we'll get the real thing. And we might see memories from Tom's childhood. I can't wait. This scenario would also solve another dramatic problem for JKR. In the beginning of each book Harry is estranged from the other students, or it wouldn't be interesting, but such a plot device will be more difficult to get away with in Book 6. As of now Harry is a hero, and he would be even more of a hero if the DA becomes official, so I don't think JKR can realistically make the students despise him again. However, she can make him a feared hero. He's Voldemort's bane, but at any moment he might collapse, or be possessed and attack his friends. I don't see JKR having any problem writing emotional action of this kind. After the first half of the book this might get repetitive, however, and then I guess Harry will finally learn how to keep Voldy out of his mind, and JKR will change tack. From then on it's anybody's guess. Neri From ariadnedrue at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 13:41:16 2004 From: ariadnedrue at yahoo.com (Toni Jackson) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 06:41:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Month or Moon In-Reply-To: <20040723110825.98700.qmail@web25308.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040723134116.57824.qmail@web52205.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107486 udder_pen_dragon wrote: > I have read several Fan fics recently where the OotP Prophecy is > quoted as: 'born as the seventh moon dies' as opposed to: 'born > as the seventh month dies' > > Are there books out there that say MOON as opposed to MONTH? > > I have checked the UK editions (Hardback, Softback and Adult > Softback) these all say MONTH. I just recently re-read the US version and the prophecy did say month. (Which definitely leads me to believe it was Harry, isn't his birthday July 30? I know a lot of people are trying to make it Neville but unless his birthday's on the 31st.....) "ariadnedrue" From hathir_child at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 14:45:18 2004 From: hathir_child at yahoo.com (Shirleen Selim) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:45:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lily's Eyes & Blood / Unicorns and Purity In-Reply-To: <027201c46acb$5722cba0$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> Message-ID: <20040723144518.82384.qmail@web21125.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107487 > Gina: > Maybe Lily had unicorn blood and she was so pure that > LV could kill her, but his life is now cursed. Maybe > that is why he was having to survive on Unicorn blood > - he had the shed blood in his veins already and was > already cursed with it. Just a tidbit regarding Lily possibly having unicorn blood because of their purity - her name is 'Lily', a flower traditionally representing in Western art and Christianity, purity. -Elenphant From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Sat Jul 24 01:03:10 2004 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:03:10 +1200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Remember my last, Petunia! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040724124125.0351a700@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 107488 At 23:52 22/07/2004, you wrote: >lorelei3dg: > >Actually, upon rereading OotP last night, I found this exchange >between Harry and DD at the very end (Chapter 37): > >"Wait," said Harry. "Wait a moment." >He sat up straighter in his chair, staring at Dumbledore. >"You sent that Howler. You told her to remember - it was your voice -" >"I thought," said Dumbledore, inclining his head slightly, "that she >might need reminding of the pact she had sealed by taking you." > >It seems pretty straightforward to me - DD did send the Howler, and >for a clear reason. The only mystery seems to be that surrounding the >type of pact that was made. Tanya here The question that is in the back of my mind, is last what? if Dumbledore sent it, it is not his first correspondence with Dursley's since the letter he left with baby Harry. Tanya Quote COS. Harry looked quickly at Dumbledore. "Not today, Mr. Weasley," said Dumbledore. "But I must impress upon both of you the seriousness of what you have done. I will be writing to both your families tonight. I must also warn you that if you do anything like this again, I will have no choice but to expel you." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rowansjet at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 15:01:58 2004 From: rowansjet at yahoo.com (rowansjet) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:01:58 -0000 Subject: Ginny and the entrancing Veil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107489 Tina wrote: > Similarly, Ginny is very effected by the Dementor's on the train > in PoA: > "Ginny, who was huddled in her corner looking nearly as bad as > Harry felt, gave a small sob; Hermione went over and put a > comforting arm around her. > 'But didn't any of you - fall off your seats?' said Harry > awkwardly. > 'No,' said Ron, looking anxiously at Harry again. 'Ginny was > shaking like mad, though....'" > > I do suspect that it is because of her encounter with Riddle. You're right, the Tom Riddle possesion would be very traumatic making her especially vulnerable to Dementors, but we can't use it as evidence for her reaction to the veil, I'm afraid, because it's not specific enough to have anything to do with the Veil at this point. But it's interesting to note. You have to wonder what she would have seen if she had met a boggart! Rowan Sjet From hedwigstalons at yahoo.com Sat Jul 24 01:19:00 2004 From: hedwigstalons at yahoo.com (hedwigstalons) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 01:19:00 -0000 Subject: Oh, the People Snape Knows... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107490 Erin - I just wanted to say that this is SUCH an intriguing post! I am all fired up to search through the books and see who Snape speaks with and what the conversations entail. Thanks! HedwigsTalons --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Erin" wrote: > I was thinking the other day about Snape and how he relates to > others. > > ::pauses and and reflects how much she appreciates having a group > she can say this to without people looking at her like she's crazy:: > > Anyway, as I was mentally going through Snape's interactions with > those around him, something became undeniably clear to me. > > Severus Snape doesn't have *any* insignificant relationships. None > at all. In fact, throughout five books, there's not a single scene > where he speaks to Hagrid, or Sprout, or Flitwick, or Binns, or > Pomfrey. Or even about them. > > OK, so the man doesn't fancy inane small talk. I'm cool with that. > But wait just a minute; if he doesn't talk about the inane stuff, > that means all his talk must be... ane? Relevant, at any rate. I > sensed a new theory taking shape.... > > And yes, to my delight, the hypothesis held true. Snape's > conversations and confrontations in each book hold the clue to the > ultimate resolution of the mystery within that book. > > It's not so much what he says, as who he says it to. Other than his > students, Snape doesn't even bother speaking to non-suspicious > characters. Nearly every single conversation he has is with someone > who either *is* a Death Eater or a traitor to Dumbledore, or who is > *suspected* of being a Death Eater or a traitor to Dumbledore. > > Let me break it down by book so you'll have a better idea of what > I'm talking about here. This is a list of the people Snape has had > key exchanges with. > > PS/SS: Argus Filch > Quirrell > > CoS: Gilderoy Lockhart > > PoA: Remus Lupin > Sirius Black > > GoF: Moody aka Barty Crouch Jr. > Argus Filch > Cornelius Fudge > Igor Karkaroff > > OotP: Umbridge > > > And to these, I would add a few others; Snape's recurring > relationships, as I think of them. These are the people whom Snape > is shown interacting with in more than one or two books: > > Dumbledore > McGonagall > Harry Potter > Draco Malfoy > Neville Longbottom > > So. Hopefully you're starting to understand what I'm getting at > here. But I'll expand a bit further just in case. > > PS/SS: > In the first book, Snape is extremely prevalent as the trio mistakes > him for the villain of the piece. He has two major relationships; > Quirrell, the Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher, and Filch, the > caretaker of the school. > > Quirrell: > Quirrell, of course, turned out to be the villain hosting > Voldemort. The trio think Snape is bullying Quirrell in order to > get the secret to the Philosopher's Stone, but at the end find out > Snape had suspected that Quirrell was helping Voldemort, and was > literally asking Quirrell to decide where his loyalties lay. > > Argus Filch: > Snape hangs out with more with Filch in this book than any other. > When his knee is injured at Halloween, it's Filch he goes to for the > fix-up. When Harry sneaks into the library's restricted section at > night, Filch runs to Snape and they hunt for Harry together. > Before OotP, spotting the pattern of Snape's relationships wouldn't > have been possible solely because of Filch. But in OotP, Filch > shows his true colors. He hates Dumbledore, loves Umbridge, and > would be willing to turn the school over to anyone who would let him > punish the students as harshly as he so desperately longs to do. > Reason enough for him to be a suspicious character and for Snape's > interest in him. > > Also in the first book, Snape sets the tone in his treatment of > Harry Potter and Draco Malfoy, coddling the latter and getting off > to a bad start with the former. > > In CoS: > > Gilderoy Lockhart: > He wasn't exactly the main villain, and Snape's utter contempt of > him reflects that. But he did prove capable of breaking the law, > and erasing the memory of students-- 12-year-olds!-- entrusted to > his care, as well as memory-wiping countless others in his quest to > become famous. > > Also in the second book, Snape cements his place as Dumbledore's > trusted lieutenant. Any time there's trouble, he and Minerva > McGonagall are right behind the headmaster. > > > PoA: > Remus Lupin: > A werewolf! The man suspected by the Potters of being Voldemort's > spy when they went into hiding And guilty of withholding > information from Dumbledore which could have helped recapture Sirius > Black. Even though he turned out to be a good guy, it's easy to > see why Snape was suspicious of him. > > Sirius Black: An escaped criminal convicted of murdering the > Potters. And with whom Snape just coincidentally has a history. > > > GoF: > The central mystery of Goblet of Fire is, of course, 'Who put > Harry's name in the Goblet?'. > > Throughout the book, JKR tried to distract us by using red herrings > and decoys. And she did a darn good job of it, too. There are > *still* people running around the fandom arguing that Ludo Bagman is > a Death Eater. But I know he isn't. *Because Snape never talked to > him.* > > Now, this book is where we should have begun to catch on to Snape's > special function in the text, namely, that if he speaks to someone, > that someone is an important or suspicious character. > > Think of the suspects JKR set up when Harry's name was drawn from > the Goblet. > > Ludo Bagman, a shady character with a mysterious penchant for > helping Harry. Mr. Crouch, with all his unexplained absences. > Madame Maxime, a half-giantess. Igor Karkaroff, headmaster of a > school known for teaching the Dark Arts. And Snape himself, who > hates Harry. > > Excepting himself, Snape speaks only to one of these: Karkaroff, who > turns out to have been a former Death Eater. Veeeery suspicious. > > And he also speaks to the one person we didn't suspect. Moody, > a.k.a. Barty Crouch Jr. Harry and co. never had much luck figuring > out who was responsible for dropping Harry's name in the Goblet, but > Snape zeroed right in on him (though unknowingly). > > Also in the fourth book Snape speaks to Cornelius Fudge (the > Minister of Magic, an important person who becomes suspicious when > he refuses to acknowledge Voldemort's return) and continues his > tradition of late-night rendezvous with Argus Filch. > > OotP: > > In Order of the Phoenix, Snape argues with Sirius Black (now > revealed as the lone heir of an extremely Dark wizarding family) > > He pretends to cooperate with Delores Umbridge (who set the > dementors on Harry and Dudley) > > And he spends time coaching Harry, who ultimately makes the mistake > of falling into Voldemort's trap. > > **************** > I know I haven't said all of this very well; I'm so excited about it > that I'm sort of rushing into posting. I plan to refine it a lot > more based on the feedback that I hope it will get. > > But I will say this; if you want to know what's going on the very > first time you read the sixth book, all you have to do is watch > Snape. > > --Erin > > > This message has also been cross-posted at The Hog's Head: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hogs_Head/ for the benefit of those > who prefer a smaller and more intimate group of adult fans who are > knowledgeable about Harry Potter. From lszydlowski at hotmail.com Fri Jul 23 15:24:05 2004 From: lszydlowski at hotmail.com (szydlowskil) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:24:05 -0000 Subject: Grease (was who would love) In-Reply-To: <97.4acc75e3.2e319ef8@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107491 "K" wrote: > > Can't say that I agree with the idea working around potions > > would cause the grease business. Why then the same look as a > > teenager? xtremesk8ergurl2: > ... or maybe he has some form of depression which would contribute > to his nastiness and his appearance . I still think Snape is > really a good person deep down because he does seem to protect HP. > I just think he's either social phobic or depressed because how he > was abused a lot as a kid/teen. Lynette replies: At the time the Marauders generation was at Hogwarts, lots of fashion styles were coming into being in the Muggle world: punk, New Romantic. I just assumed (especially seeing how Alan Rickman is costumed in the films) that little Severus was a fledgling Goth. I can see him trying to cultivate the dark, mysterious wizard look - it may even have been a cool look in the Slytherin common room at the time. Certainly diametrically opposed to those big-haired Gryffindor guys. ;') And I'm with those who think either the grey underpants come from washing them with all those black clothes or they really are grey, because otherwise the Hogwarts House Elves do crummy work. From snapesangel2002 at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 23 17:07:34 2004 From: snapesangel2002 at yahoo.co.uk (laura) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:07:34 -0000 Subject: Most burning Snape question? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107492 Hey there, this is a bit OT but I had the most *amazing* letter this morning containing tickets to meet JKR at the Edinburgh book festival on Aug. 15!!!!! I've already decided I'm asking her a question on Snape as not many people ask good Snape questions when she does stuff like this, plus he's my *favourite* character. But I can't think of a good enough question, one that she won't say "I can't reveal that yet", that's never been asked before, and that maybe has a couple of questions sneaked into one ;) Any ideas? This is what I've got so far: 1) Is Snape a pure blood? 2) Why did he join/leave the Deatheaters? 3) Has he ever been married/engaged? 4) Will he ever get the DADA position? 5) Why did he flinch in GOF when Lucius was named as a DE in the hospital wing? I really can't think of any more, I'm too excited to think! She probably won't answer most of these anyway. I need other fans' help, I've already asked the snapesupport lot. Has anyone got a list of Snape questions they really want answered? (Stupid question really) And did anyone else get lucky? If so what are you gonna ask? Laura* (who can't believe her luck and is gonna celebrate big time tonight!!!) From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sat Jul 24 02:03:16 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 02:03:16 -0000 Subject: Will Harry muse or be too busy fighting? (was: When Harry met Sally) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107493 > SSSusan wrote: > I wonder, though, about the attacks flying thick & fast. I would > love to hear others' opinions about whether we will, indeed, > *finally* see some battle action or whether that will be held off > yet again, 'til Book 7. > > Anyone else care to offer an opinion of whether Harry will spend > much time wrestling with "his" burden & his choice to accept it, or > whether there'll be little time for such musings because of all the > Voldy-DE attacks we're sure to see in HBP? Boyd replied: > IMHO Harry still has to get to the point in book 7 where we see > him as a true hero who fully understands and accepts his burden, > no matter the cost. That's the essence of choice, isn't it? > > So there's two things that have to happen before that: Harry has > to figure out *how* to defeat LV, and Harry has to come to terms > with the *consequences* of facing and/or defeating LV--both for > him and the world. > > But for choice to exist, he'll have to really know what he's up > against, not to mention *why* it's important. SSSusan: I concur with this, Boyd. I'm one who's argued that Harry *has* had some degree of choice--and exercised it--since coming to Hogwarts. But you're right that for a choice of this magnitude to be complete & real, Harry needs to understand what he's up against and what's involved. That is, he *chose*, for instance, to take the risk of going after the stone--it was a free choice--but while it was brave & the WW is lucky Harry took the risk, it *was* certainly a big risk, undertaken rashly. Now, the HUGE decision he faces of whether to accept the burden of attempting to end it all with Voldy, and how to do so, is something he can't afford to approach at the "gut level" anymore. Back to one of your points, now IS the time for DD & others to come clean...and STAY clean. If people know more about the what and the why and the how--or about any history which can help Harry understand--they NEED to lay it out there now. Harry's probably already angry & resentful that this burden has fallen on him. We know he's angry w/ DD. If DD & The Order want Harry to choose the difficult path, they're going to have to SHOW him they're willing to let him know whatever he needs to know now. No more secrets, no more "saving you from pain," no more "someday, when you're ready." The time is NOW, and if they're not forthcoming, I suspect Harry will pull away further. Siriusly Snapey Susan From patientx3 at aol.com Sat Jul 24 02:35:51 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 02:35:51 -0000 Subject: Something wrong with this Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107494 Jim wrote: > Is Fudge evil? I think so. I just don't think he's a DE or a mole, > or that major a player any more. > > JKR is character-driven. Know her characters and you can predict a > lot of what they'll do. SSSusan replied: >> But that's just it--I'm afraid we *can't* always know her characters. The ones we know best--Harry, Ron, Hermione, Hagrid, etc.--I suppose have become fairly predictable to us. But it's that *not*-knowing, in fact, our inability to fully know because of what JKR has chosen to leave out, that makes it impossible to fully predict the actions of people like Snape, Ludo Bagman, Lucius Malfoy,.... And I'd add Fudge. The speculation is part of trying to figure out whether we *can* know him better than we'd thought. << HunterGreen: Well, from the little (or lot, depending on your perspective), we know about Fudge, I would say its completely within his character to be a quiet, behind-the-scenes Voldemort sympathsizer. (and supporting Voldemort indirectly does NOT make him a death-eater. I believe Voldemort would have to give him that distinction) For one thing, we know its in his nature to be ruthless, and to disregard others' opinions in favor of his own, and he's a half-breed hater / pure blood enthusiast. As I said in another post, if Lucius hadn't tried to recruit him, what kind of lazy recruiting is that? (considering they were MANY Voldemort followers back in the day). From erinellii at yahoo.com Sat Jul 24 02:48:35 2004 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (Erin) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 02:48:35 -0000 Subject: Most burning Snape question? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107495 "laura" wrote: I'm asking her a question on Snape as not many > people ask good Snape questions when she does stuff like this, But I can't think of a good enough > question, one that she won't say "I can't reveal that yet", > 1) Is Snape a pure blood? > 2) Why did he join/leave the Deatheaters? > 3) Has he ever been married/engaged? > 4) Will he ever get the DADA position? > 5) Why did he flinch in GOF when Lucius was named as a DE in the > hospital wing? Wow! Congrats on your good luck!! I really hope you get to ask a question!! Um, I can't think of any new ones right off the top of my head, I might get back to you on that... But of the ones you've listed, I think one and five look the most likely. #2 she's almost certain to say something like "you'll find that out in the sixth or seventh book. #3, other people have asked about teacher spouses, and she's already said that some teachers are married but she is not ready to reveal who yet, and #4 I just know she'll say to wait and see. Yup, one and five, all right. Of the two, I like five the best... --Erin From patientx3 at aol.com Sat Jul 24 03:00:29 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 03:00:29 -0000 Subject: Will Harry muse or be too busy fighting? (was: When Harry met Sally) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107496 SSSusan wrote: >> I wonder, though, about the attacks flying thick & fast. I would love to hear others' opinions about whether we will, indeed, *finally* see some battle action or whether that will be held off yet again, 'til Book 7. It seems time for it, but I thought it was time for it after the graveyard scene/Harry & DD's announcement of Voldy's return at the end of 4th year. Yet we were strung along for nearly the whole of Book 5, with Voldy still lying low, and all that talk about a weapon, until we finally saw one battle and one death in the MoM. Not that I'm necessarily anxious for carnage, you understand, but it surprised me that there was so little in OoP. << HunterGreen: I really hope that *something* happens in book six to start to explain why there was (and still is), SO much fear about Voldemort. So far he hasn't really done much of anything, well, not anything really frightening. He was supposed to rise 'greater and more terrible than he was before'. I wonder if that will actually happen or not. I was surprised too by the inaction of Voldemort and the DE's in OotP. I can almost see Dumbledore hiding the prophecy just as a ploy to distract Voldemort, (since if he was, it worked REALLY well). The myterious deaths, people getting imperioued, people disappearing, all of that was happening in GoF when he barely had any power at all -- I figured that was all a warmup, and then in OotP, he was being pretty quiet aside from trying to get the prophecy. The only other things he did were get the DE's free from Azkaban (of course they were back in there by the end) and get the dementers on his side. It appears he's *getting ready* for something. I hope there's some action in book six, because if its saved for book seven, it'll seem like a cheat. Book five was odd because it was so different in tone than the others. The others were leading toward a somewhat obvious or predictable ending. In book one, it leads to the trio saving the stone, book leads to the chamber of secrets and stopping the heir of slytherin, book three leads to the confrontation with Sirius Black, and book four leads to the end of tri-wizard tournament and finding out whatever Voldemort wanted Harry for. I suppose you could guess that the ending of book five would involve the WW finding out the truth about Voldemort, but a final battle in the MoM? Voldemort was looking for a prophecy the whole time? What...? That was sort of out of nowhere. Not good or bad, but the tone of OotP was very different than the other (IMO), more focused on Harry dealing with himself rather than an overwhelming mystery to solve or something *specific* to focus on. From dk59us at yahoo.com Sat Jul 24 03:24:33 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 03:24:33 -0000 Subject: Longbottoms' Secret Keeper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107497 esmith222002 wrote: > > It seems that the assumption is that Harry's parents were in > > hiding because of the prophecy. If this is so, then surely the > > Longbottoms would have been in hiding also. Eustace_Scrubb: Some theorize that the Longbottoms were _not_ in hiding because they were Aurors, which the Potters were not. Perhaps, as someone suggested elsewhere in this thread, Neville himself was protected by the Fidelius charm (or does one have to be old enough to be able to designate the Secret Keeper one's self?) Or maybe he was with his Gran and she was the one protected? As Meri says, we'll just have to speculate until JKR answers this one--or until it proves to be of no importance! Meri: > The Longbottoms weren't attacked till well after the > Potters were killed. According to DD that was one of the reasons > that people were so angry about the attacks. LV had fallen at this > point, families were coming out of hiding, and people thought they > were safe for the first time in ten years. Eustace_Scrubb: I would agree with that first sentence if the word "well" wasn't there. Yes, clearly Godric's Hollow occurred before the attack on the Longbottoms. And yes, DD does say that the latter occurred just as people were beginning to feel safe. But I still think that the time frame _could_ have been as early as the evening that DD, Hagrid and Minerva deposited Harry on the Dursleys' doorstep. Word had already spread of LV's disappearance, celebrations were underway that even Vernon Dursley noticed, and even DD said in PS/SS that he was going to join in the celebrations. I don't think the WW would have engaged in such celebration unless a large proportion of them were already feeling safe by that night. Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From yswahl at stis.net Sat Jul 24 03:43:51 2004 From: yswahl at stis.net (samnanya) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 03:43:51 -0000 Subject: Be careful what you wish for (re: the dark lord gets nasty) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107498 SSSusan Not that I'm necessarily anxious for carnage, you understand, but it surprised me that there was so little in OoP. HunterGreen: I really hope that *something* happens in book six to start to explain why there was (and still is), SO much fear about Voldemort. So far he hasn't really done much of anything, well, not anything really frightening. He was supposed to rise 'greater and more terrible than he was before'. I wonder if that will actually happen or not. Samnanya The Dark Mark hasnt been seen since GOF and that was as a warning. Someone who saw the Dark Mark in GOF will not live to see it again... One of the most brutish death eaters was not at the MoM and therefore not in Azkaban --- Goyle Sr. I have posted on this several times before, but DarkMark my words, Goyle will rear his ugly head very soon into book 6 - probably to kill Luna's dad since he was the one who notified the world of Harry Potter's version of the story. Maybe after Goyle beats someone to death some of your bloodlust may be satisfied, but I think that there is far more brutality in store in Book 6. Everyone knows that the Dark Lord is out there as are the dementors and rawling knows what else, and there is no more need for him to lay low. So many muggles and wizards to terrify, so few books left to do it.... From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sat Jul 24 03:53:32 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 03:53:32 -0000 Subject: Most burning Snape question? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107499 Laura wrote: 1) Is Snape a pure blood? Neri: This is a good question. In general I think yes/no questions are the best because they have only three possible answers: yes, no and "I can't answer that". The third answer is actually the best because then you know you've hit gold. Laura: 2) Why did he join/leave the Deatheaters? Neri: This is IMO an example of a bad question, because we are already pretty sure that the reasons he joined/left the DEs are important. So if JKR answers "I can't tell you" we don't learn much. If she actually gives a reason, it means that this is actually not as important as we thought. In both cases the answer will be disappointing, although more useful in the second case. Laura: 3) Has he ever been married/engaged? Neri: A good one, for the same reason as 1. However, you might be in for a disappointment here. I'd remind you that JKR had already laughed herself silly when asked if anybody was in love with him, and answered: "why would anybody want to?". Laura: 4) Will he ever get the DADA position? Neri: A good question, for the same reason as 1. Almost any possible answer I can think of will be interesting. Laura: 5) Why did he flinch in GOF when Lucius was named as a DE in the hospital wing? Neri: Not so good, same reason as 2. Laura: I really can't think of any more, I'm too excited to think! Neri: Was Snape in the graveyard with the other death eaters after Voldemort was reborn? Did Snape go to Voldemort after Dumbledore asked him "are you ready"? Does Snape use Occlumency in his job for the Order? When Snape was a death eater, did he know Lucius was a death eater too? Was Snape the eavesdropper who overheard the Prophecy in the Hog's Head? Did Snape commit any terrible things during his time as a death eater? Did Voldemort originally sent Snape to Dumbledore as Voldemort's spy? Did Snape become a teacher in Hogwarts before or after the Potters' death? Congratulations and good luck! Neri From hunibuni22 at webtv.net Sat Jul 24 03:55:23 2004 From: hunibuni22 at webtv.net (tjbailey24) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 03:55:23 -0000 Subject: Doesn't Voldemort know about Snape's loyalty? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107500 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > "boyd_smythe" wrote: > > > > I think it's clear that Snape is no longer a trusted DE, and it's > > likely he's the one who has left never to return, according to LV. > > > > So who or what is he spying on? Lucius and other known DEs? The > MoM? > > Gringott's? > > > > Neri: > As many have pointed out in the past, having DD by the end of GoF > saying to Snape (paraphrasing from memory) "You know what I must ask > from you... if you are ready" and the pale Snape (who had just shown > his dark mark to Fudge) saying "I am" and sweeps out, all this > dramatic effect seems rather wasted on Lucius, or on anyone other > than Voldy. > > Besides, would Lucius have any relations with someone that Voldy had > declared dead meat? I doubt it. > > But it is very likely that Snape had Lucius putting a good word for > him, thus bying a chance to recite his excuses before Voldy AKs him > on the spot. > > Neri Tara: I like to hope that Voldemort thinks Snape is the cowardly one and Karkaroff is the one who is never returning. We don't know for sure the demeanor of these two when they were practicing death eaters... I think too that Snape's talents of Occulmency help him to keep his true feelings from Voldemort. From hunibuni22 at webtv.net Sat Jul 24 04:02:26 2004 From: hunibuni22 at webtv.net (tjbailey24) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 04:02:26 -0000 Subject: Neville's memory (or lack of) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107501 Has any of you noticed how often Neville forgets things? Its possible that he's just that way.. magic not coming easily to him and all... got a lot on his mind. I was wondering if any of you thought it possible he had his memory modified at one time? It thinks its possible but I can't come up with any good reason WHY. What do you think? From yswahl at stis.net Sat Jul 24 04:02:53 2004 From: yswahl at stis.net (samnanya) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 04:02:53 -0000 Subject: Balance of Power in the Wizarding World In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107502 I am very curious about what others may think regarding this : With the death of Sirius, I feel that there was a shift of power to the dark wizards which would be very dramatic if DD were to fall. Sirius was by all accounts a very powerful wizard for the Order, second only to Dumbledore. If there is to be this "battle" that everyone seems to want, how do the adult combatants compare ? My view: [In "good -- bad" format] - Dumbledore & McGonagall -- Voldemort & Bellatrix Sirius (dec) -- Dolohoff Hagrid & Shacklebolt -- Crabbe & Goyle Arthur Weasley -- Lucius Malfoy Lupin -- Wormtail Tonks, Mad Eye Moony, Flitwick -- other death eaters Snape -- Rookwood Avery {the devious group} Crookshanks -- Wormtail {both are weak and crafty} Trevor {a prince} -- Nott {hasn't been very impressive.....} A War doesnt make sense unless there is a balance of power to start. Otherwise one side would have vanquished the other a long time ago.... I know I probably left some people out.... Suggestions and comments? From trishel2 at hotmail.com Fri Jul 23 17:54:09 2004 From: trishel2 at hotmail.com (rebeccatrishel) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:54:09 -0000 Subject: Doesn't Voldemort know about Snape's loyalty? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107503 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ariston3344" wrote: > I (ariston) wondered: > > I'm not at all sure that Snape *has* wormed his way back into > > Voldy's good graces. > > Rebecca replied: > > The best indication that he didn't is the fact that Harry guesses > > he might've. I mean, c'mon, Harry is usually wrong at this stage > > in a mystery. > > ariston again: > Granted, what Hermione is saying isn't true in the way that she > thinks it is, nor in the way a first-time reader would think. But > it's more or less right! Certainly it's moving in the right > direction. > > As for Snape, I'm still not sure what's going on. But that his job > is spying *somehow* seems likely from OotP. He says that it's his > job to "find out what the Dark Lord is saying to his Death Eaters" > in OotP 26, and that fits in with his giving a top secret report to > the Order in OotP 4. About Hermione being right: Yeah, BUT, a couple of pages later Harry figures out how to work the diary, and TMR shows him Hagrid and Aragog. Harry thinks that Snape is a spy in the last chapter of GoF, and we still don't know for sure. Now, If I was JK Rowling, I wouldn't want to spoil the suspense about a mystery by giving away the answer two books before the mystery is solved. Also, check out Snape's suspiciously happy response to Harry's idea that Snape is spying on LV in OotP. Snape is doing SOMETHING, but spying seems unlikely to me. And BTW, the "top secret" report in OotP maybe wasn't that top secret. I mean, the children couldn't hear what was said. Maybe it was really boring ... and why all this secrecy if Snape is just pretending to be a DE again? Why doesn't JKR go ahead and say so? --Rebecca Trishel From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Sat Jul 24 04:10:48 2004 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (imamommy at sbcglobal.net) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 04:10:48 -0000 Subject: Neville's memory (or lack of) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107504 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tjbailey24" wrote: > > Has any of you noticed how often Neville forgets things? Its possible that he's just that way.. magic not coming easily to him and all... got a lot on his mind. I was wondering if any of you thought it possible he had his memory modified at one time? It thinks its possible but I can't come up with any good reason WHY. > What do you think? imamommy: I think if you have the time to search the archives, you will find that a lot of people have this opinion, as well as theories as to why this might have happened. I seem to remember right before OOP came out especially, there were a bunch of posts on this subject. From trishel2 at hotmail.com Fri Jul 23 19:09:58 2004 From: trishel2 at hotmail.com (rebeccatrishel) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 19:09:58 -0000 Subject: The HBP is DEAD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107505 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Louis Badalament" wrote: > Rebecca, > > Interesting points... but consider Prisoner of Azkaban, the > only other book whose title shows a story 'centering' around one > specific character - as Half Blood Prince seems to.*snip* > Furthermore, Rebecca, I don't see 'Half Blood' as being the > Prince's offical title any more than Sirius' 'title' was 'The > Prisoner of Azkaban.' When all is said and done, Sirius was just A > prisoner of Azkaban - it housed many other inmates. And while I > don't know about the Prince being "more powerful than Harry, > Dumbledore, and the Order of Phoenix combined," but I have faith > that he'll add a lot to the plot; J.K. is ususally good about these > sorts of things. And who's to say that anyone's going to 'seek him > out?' Perhaps the Prince is a villian, and Our Heroes will struggle > to avoid him, or fight him, or prevent Voldemort from making use of > him, as happened with the Philosopher's Stone. Rebecca Trishel now: Nice arguments, Louis, but my basic objection is still there. I agree that "half blood" probably isn't the Prince's official title, and that the title is like PoA, but for the HBP to be important to the plot--at this point in the series, anyway--he'd have to be huge. This is the second-to-last book in the series; book 7 will be the climax. What does a writer do right before the action-packed third act? Raise the stakes, heighten the tension, start a ticking time- bomb, and get your hero up in a tree and throw rocks at him. It would be murder to the books to have them dwadling about an insignificant character at this point. I hate to say "at this point" again, but at this point it would be too late in the story to introduce another Sirius Black. That leads me to say that the HBP would have to be more important or powerful that anything we've seen so far in the series--and that I can't imagine. Right now I'm HOPING that the HBP is not the cornerstone of the plot--sort of like the Order of the Phoenix not being the whole point of the book, but sort of a linking theme. Unless Dobby is the HBP ... Rebecca Trishel p.s. Yeah, I saw the Heir of Gryffindor joke. I don't really think there IS an Heir of Gryffindor ... would they have their own secret chamber and large but controllable gryffin? From trishel2 at hotmail.com Fri Jul 23 19:25:17 2004 From: trishel2 at hotmail.com (rebeccatrishel) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 19:25:17 -0000 Subject: Doesn't Voldemort know about Snape's loyalty? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107506 > Neri: *snip* So my guess is that in Voldy's mind, Snape is curently on > probation. Voldemort in GoF: "...one who I believe has left me forever ... he will be killed, of course." If he's talking about Snape, then Snape is in more trouble than probation. --Rebecca Trishel From trishel2 at hotmail.com Fri Jul 23 19:30:18 2004 From: trishel2 at hotmail.com (rebeccatrishel) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 19:30:18 -0000 Subject: Apparate into Hogwarts? (was Re: Attack on Hogwarts?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107507 boyd wrote: > I can imagine house-elves who mischievously & (comically) prank the > invading army so that they can never make it inside the castle. You > know, turn the doorknobs into portkeys that transport the DE to the > dungeon of the MoM, apparate away from two DEs who hit each other with > their spells, food fights, that sort of thing. Why don't the house-elves just snap their fingers and send the DEs flying backward, like LM in the finale of CoS? I remember Lucius being too scared of Dobby to try to hurt Harry. I'd be scared too. On the other hand, a comical army would be a lot more fun ... maybe they can be comical AND funny. But we know that house-elves are extremely powerful. --Rebecca Trishel From dklopp at ptd.net Fri Jul 23 19:56:08 2004 From: dklopp at ptd.net (Diane Klopp) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 19:56:08 -0000 Subject: Ginny and the entrancing Veil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107508 dcgmck again: Still, I don't think the memory of Riddle knew any more of what his future self had done than what Ginny told him in the diary before Harry started communicating with him. Of course, then Riddle possessed Ginny again... OK. But Harry knew even less than Ginny did in his second year at Hogwarts. OK, I'm confused again. How would the memory have learned enough to contaminate Ginny, unless it was outside of the visible narrative line while at the Malfoy estate? Cory again: The more I think about this, the more I think I was wrong in my last post. My initial thought was that, althought the diary was made by Riddle when he was 16, it somehow "grew" with Riddle/Voldemort as he matured, and therefore the Riddle that was in the diary had knowledge of everything that Voldemort was to become. Upon further reflection (and having looked back at the chapter in COS where Riddle was talking to Harry in the Chamber), I think I might have been wrong about this. Diane here: Since the diary was in Malfoy's possession, perhaps Malfoy was keeping Voldemort up to date with the WW. Malfoy could have been ordered by VM to plant the diary on someone close to Harry. Ginny Weasley seemed like a good choice given her dad is a major thorn in Malfoy's side. Just my two knuts. Diane From nihil8750 at comcast.net Fri Jul 23 20:02:14 2004 From: nihil8750 at comcast.net (nihil8750o) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 20:02:14 -0000 Subject: Theory on James and Lilly Potters occupations Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107509 I am a new member so please forgive me if I am repeating anything that has been said or intensely discussed before (and I am sure that it has because I am neither original or in possesion of extemely acute perceptive nature). But I have been mulling this idea around and after rereading the Harry Potter series for the third time recently I am convinced that I am possiblly validated. So Here it goes. First I'll start with James. I believe that he was an Auror. I know this is absolutely not unique, but there has been a lot of clues in the books especially "OotP". Such as Kingsley Shacklebolt's familiar refrence to James when being first introduced to Harry. His comment on Harry looking like James indicates a relationship that goes beyond a casual acquaintance with James. Although it is possible that he met James somewhere else (like Hogwarts); it is also concievable that they worked together in the Auror department hence developing some kind of familar bond. Also the only other family to combat Lord Voldemort thrice and live is the Longbottoms who where Aurors. (I mean it would not make much sense for James and Lily Potter to face the dark lord multible times if James was a janitor or something not in the field of dark arts defence eventhough they were in the Order of the Phoenix). Ok with the obvious one out of the way here goes for a theory that is a bit more of a stretch. I believe Lilly was the former Defence against the Dark Arts Teacher. I know most people will believe that position might be more apt to fit James with what we know about them but please be patient as I present my reasons. The stongest fact I have for this theory is that Lilly knew an obscure counter curse Avada Kedavra curse. This is stated by Voldemort himself. Lilly's knowledge of this rarely used counter curse leads me to belive that she had to have had a great deal of knowledge in dark arts defence. This knowledge would be most likely to come from someone who taught the subject. Also this is just a gut feeling but so far there have been plenty of ties between Harry and his father's abilities and qualities (i.e. Quidditch, an apptitude towards trouble making, his looks minus the eyes, the stag shaped Patronus, ect...) but little has been comparied between Harry and his mother (other than his eyes) and I believe that Harry's apptitude towards Defence against the Dark Arts can easily create more of a paternal bond between Harry and his mother in literary form if she were the former teacher of the subject. Now if it is hard to swallow that Lilly was the DAtDA teacher here are some points that show that possibly at least one of the Potters (Lilly or James) held that Hogwarts position. Snape started teaching at Hogwarts shortly after the death of the Potters. Now by logic if he was originally and still intersted in the Dark Arts Position would he not apply when an opening for that teaching spot came up. And what better opening than if the person teaching the subject had died (James and Lilly). This could also lend itself to another reason why Snape hates Harry. Next, this one is based on assumption but if the School of Hogwarts can reject an illegitamate Headmaster or Headmistress; can it also reject illegitamte teachers. My assumption here is that the school of Hogwarts has many qualities of a conscience entity and rejects or interjects when things are not how they should be. This is proven in "Order of the Phoenix" when Dumbledore leaves the school and Umbridge attempts to replace him. Could this also be true for teaching positions and explain why no one has been able to fill this role permanately. Because if one of Harry's parents was ment for the Dark Arts teaching position and killed off in an untimely manor would it not be belivable that the positon would stay perpetually open till someone was "ready" to fill it (Harry perhaps). Furthermore Hagrid stated in the fist book that Harry has had his name on the list to attened the school since he was born. Now the obvious comment to this is what does that have to do with anything all wizards born in the UK are listed at the school (HP _Lexicon) and Harry having the paternal source that he has would be on the list not to mention his survival from Voldemort's attempt at killing him would defenately make him an obvious position holder on the enrolment list. But to answer this I go back to what Hagrid said "... his names been down ever since he was born." (SSp.58). If we are to take Hagrid at his word Harry has been enrolled since birth; which is before his encounter with Voldemeort. Also just because Harry was born to a witch and a wizard does not guarantee a position on the enrolment list. Hogwarts is a prestigious school and only takes the best. I believe that one of Harry's parents being a teacher at the school is a reasonable explanation on how he has been enrolled since birth. (more reasons on how this part can be proven on inquiry) Anyways I thank you all for your time and look forward to others opinion on the subject "nihil" From hunibuni22 at webtv.net Sat Jul 24 04:18:50 2004 From: hunibuni22 at webtv.net (tjbailey24) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 04:18:50 -0000 Subject: Balance of Power in the Wizarding World In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107510 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "samnanya" wrote: > I am very curious about what others may think regarding this : > > With the death of Sirius, I feel that there was a shift of power > to the dark wizards which would be very dramatic if DD were to > fall. Sirius was by all accounts a very powerful wizard for the > Order, second only to Dumbledore. > If there is to be this "battle" that everyone seems to want, how > do the adult combatants compare ? > > My view: [In "good -- bad" format] - > > Dumbledore & McGonagall -- Voldemort & Bellatrix > Sirius (dec) -- Dolohoff > Hagrid & Shacklebolt -- Crabbe & Goyle > Arthur Weasley -- Lucius Malfoy > Lupin -- Wormtail > Tonks, Mad Eye Moony, Flitwick -- other death eaters > Snape -- Rookwood Avery {the devious group} > Crookshanks -- Wormtail {both are weak and crafty} > Trevor {a prince} -- Nott {hasn't been very impressive.....} > > A War doesnt make sense unless there is a balance of power to > start. Otherwise one side would have vanquished the other a > long time ago.... > I know I probably left some people out.... > Suggestions and comments? Tara: I'm not sure I follow the "one on one" stategy here... certainly there are plenty of wizards armed and ready to fight the dark lord and his followers, not necessarily just the ones you have listed here. I think that Voldemort is the one, of course, that Dumbledore will concentrate on, but doesn't Harry have to kill him...one must die so the other can live.. (sorry, not quoted exactly as I don't have my book handy), according to prophesy? I am certain that between all the other Order members (and other wizards who will join in, such as Fred and George, Bill, Charlie, maybe Percy... and you can't forget that Ron and Hermione seem to always appear when needed) they will be able to 'hold off' the death eaters until the fall of Voldemort. There were only a few that were willing to give their life for him, the rest would probably say they had been hexed or something to get out of it. Thats how I see it anyway! From deadlyvampirekat at aol.com Fri Jul 23 20:05:15 2004 From: deadlyvampirekat at aol.com (deadlyvampirekat at aol.com) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:05:15 EDT Subject: Sirius' choices Message-ID: <65.2f0bc059.2e32c97b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107511 ----------- Amey wrote: So Sirius is surely one character who needs some sympathy, because his life was not "Chosen by him" but "chosen for him". Carol: Without going into your characterization of Sirius, which seems to ignore his reckless streak, and without denying his frustration at Grimmauld Place, I do want to point out that Sirius did make certain choices that contributed to his fate. How can you effectively blame someone for making those choices? How can you say that in a way Sirius was responsible for his fate? If you thought your best friend and family were in danger, and genuinely believed that it was safer to entrust their whereabouts with Peter, would you not make the same decision? I do actually (though it may well not sound like it) respect your point of view and everyone else's, and have been reading the post on Sirius for some time and haven't said anything. If you had been in the hell on earth that is Azkaban, reliving for 12 years the sight of your best friend and wife dead, can you honestly say you wouldn't go after Peter? Knowing that he'd deprived your Godson of his parents? Knowing that he had been Voldemort's spy? It may not have been the wisest thing, by any means, and at one point I would have said I'd have tried to prove my innocence, but now, (to some extent at least) I have experienced wanting revenge against someone who is greatly responsible for the death of my Dad, (don't call the police, I'm not about to commit murder!) But I can see why avenging James, Lily and Harry was top of his list. And as you said, you understand the reasons for most of his actions, but to say coldly, that basically, he chose to, so it's his own fault, just hit a nerve. What other choice did he have? If you'd seen what he had (at Godric's Hollow) Do you think you'd have been thinking straight? Anyway, calming down a bit, I that a lot of the things that many, many people have called reckless, even foolish, is loyalty, and I personally greatly admire Sirius Black for the fact of his loyalty and his desperate desire to avenge his friends, to protect and care for Harry, to live life. In some ways, If Sirius had been cooped up for the next book or so, I think he was better off dead. Sirius was not someone who could sit and do nothing and it was eating away at him that his friends were out there, risking their necks and he couldn't. When he had just as much right, more than some in fact, to be out there fighting. And I do understand why he was locked up at no.12, but I also see why it drove Sirius into the nearest bottle of Fire Whiskey. Anyway, Sorry if I've offended anyone terribly, or looked a bit mad, but that's how I feel. ~ Mina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From brenda-chaisson at rogers.com Fri Jul 23 21:30:34 2004 From: brenda-chaisson at rogers.com (Brenda) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 21:30:34 -0000 Subject: Doesn't Voldemort know about Snape's loyalty? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107512 Boyd: > Given that in OoP he has apparently been absent for some time and is a > source of considerable interest upon his return to Grimmauld, he must > be going somewhere far away. Perhaps talking to other possible allies > like Hagrid did? > > Oh, no, did I just bump into another vampire discussion? Luckdragon64 writes: O.K. I'll bite! "Severus, said Dumbledore, turning to Snape, "you know what I must ask you to do. If you are ready...if you are prepared..." "I am," said Snape. He looked slightly paler than usual, and his cold, black eyes glittered strangely. "Then good luck," said Dumbledore, and he watched with a trace of apprehension on his face, as Snape swept wordlessly after Sirius. Hagrid is sent to talk to his kind - the giants, and Snape is sent to talk to -? Harry and Ron talking about Snape: "Do you reckon he could've beaten you and Dumbledore there?" says Ron. "Not unless he can turn himself into a bat or something," said Harry. "Wouldn't put it past him," Ron muttered. Did anyone happen to look at JKR's sketch of Snape on Pirate Monkey's Snape site??? Very Vampirish!! From eabarboza at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 21:36:00 2004 From: eabarboza at yahoo.com (eabarboza) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 21:36:00 -0000 Subject: Will Harry muse or be too busy fighting? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107513 > SSSusan: > Anyone else care to offer an opinion of whether Harry will spend much > time wrestling with "his" burden & his choice to accept it, or > whether there'll be little time for such musings because of all the > Voldy-DE attacks we're sure to see in HBP? This is my first post, so bear with me... I personally think that Harry needs to learn more advanced magic. We saw the a lot of sophisticated jinxes and sword-play at the end of OotP. Harry will be too busy training himself to fight to muse and sit around just thinking. I am sure he will have his moments of self doubt, but Hermione will bring him back to his senses. I think book 6 will be his preparation phase. Maybe at the end of book 6 we will see Harry raise up against the DE and maybe end up doing some real damage (Bellatrix maybe?). Book 7 will be where the full all out war will start. Erika From ariston3344 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 21:59:53 2004 From: ariston3344 at yahoo.com (ariston3344) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 21:59:53 -0000 Subject: Doesn't Voldemort know about Snape's loyalty? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107514 Neri wrote: > But I do believe that Snape didn't completely wormed his way back > into Voldy's good graces. The proof: he didn't know about the plot > to lure Harry to the DoM, and he wasn't ordered to do it himself, > although from Voldy's point of view he was perfectly situated to > do just that. Hmmm... well, if Snape *is* acting as a double agent (yes, it's a big if, but I still think it's an open possibility, see below) -- if he is acting as a double agent, then both sides realize that he has to look like he's accommodating to the other side. So it wouldn't make sense, for example, for him to be the one to actively lure Harry to the DoM. On the other hand, Snape's actions could be *seen* as very accommodating to Voldemort. (1) Snape knows that emotional calmness is essential for Occlumency, but he continually provokes Harry during Occlumency lessons. (2) Snape knows that Harry is having dreams about the DoM, and he's very interested in that fact, but we don't know for sure, do we, that he reported this fact to the Order or that he didn't report this fact to Voldemort. (3) He's fairly indifferent when Harry brings up the possibility that Voldemort might try to make Harry do things. (4) Snape eventually finds an excuse to stop giving Harry Occlumency lessons. All of this seems to me to be compatible with Snape playing a double agent role. He has to look to both sides like he's working for them, and most of what little we know for sure about Snape's activities seem to fit that. boyd wrote: > Here's another one: if LV still trusts Snape, then why use Barty Jr. > in GoF? Snape was, after all, already there. > > I think it's clear that Snape is no longer a trusted DE, and it's > likely he's the one who has left never to return, according to LV. I think this is a very plausible conclusion, but I don't think it's *clear* that it's true. I don't think the Barty Crouch argument works, for two reasons: (1) One theory on the table is that Snape didn't regain trust until after the graveyard scene, well after Barty was selected for his task. (2) The Barty argument proves too much. Voldemort didn't use Malfoy or Wormtail at Hogwarts, either. There were very good reasons for using Crouch, among them the possibility that NONE of the free DEs regained V's trust until the graveyard or later. After all, other than Wormtail, they didn't go find him in Albania, did they? So, I still think it's an open possibility that Snape is playing the double agent. On a related note, whether Snape is a double agent or not, I see no reason to doubt his assertion that his job (or at least one of his jobs) within the Order is to spy. Even if he's not a double agent, he could possibly use: (a) Legilimency (most likely on a DE, not Voldy of course); (b) the Imperius curse on a loyal DE (and perhaps Occlumency would then extend to the loyal DE's mind, so Voldy wouldn't know the DE was under the curse); (c) ordinary listening skills while disguised in some way (as an animagus or via Polyjuice potion or some other disguising potion); or (d) some method of magical eavesdropping that we haven't seen yet. -ariston From mhbobbin at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 22:46:32 2004 From: mhbobbin at yahoo.com (mhbobbin) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:46:32 -0000 Subject: Something wrong with this Fudge Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107515 mcmaxslb wrote: I don't think that Fudge is in league with Voldemort. What you have with Fudge is what you have with allot of people in government and other huge organizations. You have someone promoted above their abilities and as long as things are quiet he can cope. But when a crises happens that he knows he can't cope with instead of stepping aside and letting someone who can take over, he pretends that the problem does not exist. And people like this will go to great lengths to do this. This happens in RL all the time and it is a bit of RL in the books that JKR does well. Mhbobbin writes: So true. People in the position you describe--In JKR's world as well as real life-- will go to great lengths to preserve their power / reputation etc., by suppressing the truth. Suppression can be through denial and through more active means. Fudge though, in OOtP, is doing more than pretending the problem --Harry's claim that LV has returned--doesn't exist. Fudge is actively seeking to destroy Harry's credibility--through the media, through mis-use of the judiciary system, and also by positioning Umbridge at Hogwarts to destroy Harry's resolve and reputation, as well as general suppression of all dissent. In OotP, we see Fudge using all the levers available to him as the Minister. I don't think Fudge is a DE, or trying to help LV. But something important must be at stake for Fudge. Fudge has an "Order of Merlin" award. Wonder how he got it? He was a Junior Minister at the time of the Sirius / Pettigrew incident. That was only ten years before Harry entered into Hogwarts, and now he's the MInister of Magic. Wonder if that award and the reputation that likely followed had anything to do with the Sirius / Pettigrew incident. If that is the case, then Fudge wouldn't be too interested in hearing a story about how the wrong Wizard was reeled in. And what if Fudge knew that he had the wrong man. He doesn't seem like the kind of person who would admit the mistake to free an innocent man. Something is very fishy about Fudge. Even if he's not evil, even if he is just an incompetent protecting his reputation, he's certainly a dangerous man. Has anyone given much thought to all of The Quibbler articles about Fudge? Is there truth in them? Partial truth? And what purpose do they serve? mhbobbin From tookishgirl_111 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 22:52:27 2004 From: tookishgirl_111 at yahoo.com (tookishgirl_111) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:52:27 -0000 Subject: Quick question re: Lupin's resignation . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107516 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "huntergreen_3" wrote: > > Ari wrote: > > I'm not so sure you can say Lupin put off taking it. He takes it > > when Snape brings it to him. If Snape doesn't bring the potion until > > dusk, he can't take it until dusk. > PoA, chpt 19, p358 (paperback) > "I've just been to your office, Lupin. You forgot to take your > potion tonight, so I took a gobletful along." << See, that's the way I saw it...Snape is the only one who can make the potion and so he is the one who brings it to Lupin. And I have a feeling that Snape may, at least unconsciously, bring Lupin his potion closer to the edge of the time limit hoping Lupin would transform and thus get sacked. I've always had a question concerning the quote above, "...I brought a gobletful along...", where is it? Did Snape leave it in Lupin's office or drop it in his rush to catch Black? I've also been wary of Lupin's comment of "As long as I take it in the week preceeding the full moon...". If this is true then why didn't Snape give it to him earlier? I admit I also wonder why Lupin didn't remind Snape to give it to him sooner - does he dislike talking with Snape that much or did he remind Snape and then Snape blew him off (which would play into my original idea of Snape purposely pusking the time limit)? Tooks - who will continue to defend Lupin to the possible ESE end From dontask2much at yahoo.com Sat Jul 24 00:14:48 2004 From: dontask2much at yahoo.com (charme) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 20:14:48 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Doesn't Voldemort know about Snape's loyalty? References: Message-ID: <006c01c47113$3be9c570$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> No: HPFGUIDX 107517 ----- Original Message ----- From: "cubfanbudwoman" > SSSusan: > Yes, I think Potioncat is right. Whatever Snape knew or suspected, > really, he could have just been attempting to stop some evil > *individual* wizard who wanted to attain immortal life. Since Voldy > hadn't been seen or heard from for 12 years, Snape could **easily** > plead "How could I have known??" if he'd been confronted by Voldy > later. charme: Oh, I don't know...what complicates this is Quirrell's statement about the "counter curse" Snape was "muttering" in answer to Harry's realization that Quirrell was hexing his broom during the Quidditch match. I don't think Voldemort is naive enough to think that if Snape was still loyal to him, he'd be trying to save Harry Potter that day - Snape could have turned a blind eye or not muttered the correct counter spell. From dolis5657 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 24 00:24:08 2004 From: dolis5657 at yahoo.com (dcgmck) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 00:24:08 -0000 Subject: Something wrong with this Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107518 [SNIP] > Jim: > > Is Fudge evil? I think so. I just don't think he's a DE or a mole, > > or that major a player any more. > > > > JKR is character-driven. Know her characters and you can predict a > > lot of what they'll do. > > > SSSusan: > But that's just it--I'm afraid we *can't* always know her > characters. The ones we know best--Harry, Ron, Hermione, Hagrid, > etc.--I suppose have become fairly predictable to us. But it's that > *not*-knowing, in fact, our inability to fully know because of what > JKR has chosen to leave out, that makes it impossible to fully > predict the actions of people like Snape, Ludo Bagman, Lucius > Malfoy,.... And I'd add Fudge. The speculation is part of trying to > figure out whether we *can* know him better than we'd thought. dcgmck: Having lots of fun reading the various streams pouring out of this topic, but I have to beg to differ with this last assertion that either Bagman or Malfoy is unpredictable. We hear two different takes on Bagman before we ever see him in GoF and Malfoy is...well, a man of "bad faith" from the get-go, with no sign of changing. Even LV notes this at the end of GoF when the DEs are recalled and called to an accounting. From dolis5657 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 24 01:27:02 2004 From: dolis5657 at yahoo.com (dcgmck) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 01:27:02 -0000 Subject: Trelawney (was: Re: Voldemort and the Prophesy --OOP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107519 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rebeccatrishel" wrote: > > DuffyPoo wrote: > > > > Trelawney has been at the school, hired against DD's own > conviction that he should discontinue teaching Divination at > Hogwarts, and thoroughly unconvinced that Trelawney would be > any good as a teacher -- until the prophecy. She's been at > Hogwarts, *living* at Hogwarts not just teaching there > ("Hogwarts is my home" - OotP Seen and Unforseen). My > opinion is that DD has her there for her own protection. < > > > Rebecca Trishel now: > > I always got the impression that Dumbledore wants Trelawney to stick around in case she makes another prediction (like she did in PoA). As for her protection, I don't know that LV knows who made the prophecy. > I guess the "spy" at Hogshead might recognize her. Otherwise, > Trelawney is pretty safe, especially given her reputation as a failed fortune-teller. dcgmck: I have to go with DuffyPoo on this one. Dumbledore has consistently given Harry obvious reasons for his actions, only to reveal later that protection was his true motivation. Trelawney might not be able to recall or reconstruct her own prophecy, but that wouldn't stop LV from trying to extract it from her. If, by some chance, he succeeded, she'd be as emptied as Bertha Jorkin and everyone involved would be at greater risk: DD, HP, Neville and his grandmother (because LV would leave no stone left unturned if he only knew where to look). At Hogwarts ST is under the protection of DD and under his eye. Should she make any more prophecies, (and we know she does,) her audience is contained and DD is in a position to learn of it. It is said that God looks after children and idiots. While I am NOT saying that DD is any kind of deity, I do believe that those who would be honorable strive to do likewise. From desastreuse at yahoo.com Sat Jul 24 01:54:25 2004 From: desastreuse at yahoo.com (desastreuse) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 01:54:25 -0000 Subject: Most burning Snape question? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107520 Laura writes: Has anyone got a list of > Snape questions they really want answered? (Stupid question really) > And did anyone else get lucky? If so what are you gonna ask? Cynthia writes: This is as good a time as any time to write my first post. I've been reading for over a week, but..... I, too, believe Snape is the most challenging and compelling character. The problem, of course, is that JKR is writing YA fiction- -and we're adults and are wont to impose adult sensibilities on a world filtered, necessarily, by her genre filter. That said, however, she has--whether she intended to or not--written a character who piques adult interest. So, were I to have the opportunity to question her about Snape, I would ask: 1. Have you any intention of resolving the rather complex issues you've raised in writing Snape's behavior over five texts? 2. Why is Snape, who by any measure is far and away as intelligent and shrewd as any in the text, so unable--or unwilling--to control his childish behavior? 3. Is Snape the Half Blood Prince? 4. Does Snape love anyone? Cynthia From ladymyneh at yahoo.com Sat Jul 24 03:51:24 2004 From: ladymyneh at yahoo.com (LadyMyneh) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 03:51:24 -0000 Subject: Half Blood Prince Theory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107521 Forgive me if someone has posted this before- I've looked over the posts from the last few days and no one seems to be actively putting this idea forwards, so I thought I throw it out there. My flatmate and I (he thought of it, but I agree) believe that the Half Blood Prince is most likely to be Hagrid- the half blood refers not to being half-human or half-muggle, but half-giant. The evidence: -JKR has said that Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince was originally the title of Chamber of Secrets, and that Chamber of Secrets holds more clues to the events of book 6 than any other. It is in CoS that we find out about Hagrid's past at Hogwarts. The only other big revelation in that novel is the one about Tom Riddle/Voldemort, and we know that Voldemort is not the HBP. -We don't know all that much about Hagrid's giant-half of the family, except that his mother was the giantess Gridwulfa. The fact that her name was known to the wizards could indicate that she was an important person in the Giant community. -In OoP the Grawp storyline is a HUGE loose end- and JKR wouldn't do that unless it was going to become significant in the next books. As Hagrid's relationship with Grawp develops, Hagrid will learn more about his family history. Giants, being fairly primal creatures, won't accept a new leader if he's weak, like Grawp, but Hagrid makes up for physical weakness (giant-wise) in his strength of character, which I believe will allow him to take up his legacy as the Prince of Giants, playing a pivotal role in bringing the Giants to the side of the good guys. This will also provide Harry with a diversion from constantly thinking about his ultimate battle with Voldemort. And wouldn't Malfoy be pissed off if Hagrid turned out to be royalty? :D "LadyMyneh" From honoradele at iwon.com Sat Jul 24 04:27:28 2004 From: honoradele at iwon.com (william_mclamb) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 04:27:28 -0000 Subject: Defending Percy ( was Percy Weasley ) In-Reply-To: <001401c464f3$cb7c5490$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107522 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sherry Gomes" wrote: > I am still believing that there is hope for Percy. I'm not ready > to give up on him. I've seen flashes of great love and loyalty to > his family in him, and I'm expecting something to happen to bring > him back. I know that this is more than a bit late, you people sure write a lot and it usually interesting. Anyway, has anybody considered that Percy may be Dumbledor's spy inside the ministry? And that Percy broke with his family as cover? Too obvious? Just my one gnuts worth. Willy From gelite67 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 24 03:37:43 2004 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 03:37:43 -0000 Subject: James, the Head Boy, but not a Prefect In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107523 --- > Asian_lovr2: > > Whereas Prefects are > chosen not for their overal excellence but more for their maturity and > reliability. Angie replies: If James became mature enough to be appointed Best Boy, that would support Sirius's assertion that James grew finally matured to the point where Lily would date him, I guess. That should comfort Harry. From hunibuni22 at webtv.net Sat Jul 24 04:47:17 2004 From: hunibuni22 at webtv.net (tjbailey24) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 04:47:17 -0000 Subject: Doesn't Voldemort know about Snape's loyalty? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107524 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brenda" wrote: > Boyd: > > Given that in OoP he has apparently been absent for some time and is a > > source of considerable interest upon his return to Grimmauld, he must > > be going somewhere far away. Perhaps talking to other possible allies > > like Hagrid did? > > > > Oh, no, did I just bump into another vampire discussion? > > > > Luckdragon64 writes: > > O.K. I'll bite! > "Severus, said Dumbledore, turning to Snape, "you know what I must > ask you to do. If you are ready...if you are prepared..." > "I am," said Snape. He looked slightly paler than usual, and his cold, black eyes glittered strangely. "Then good luck," said Dumbledore, and he watched with a trace of apprehension on his face, as Snape swept wordlessly after Sirius. > > Hagrid is sent to talk to his kind - the giants, and Snape is sent > to talk to -? > > Harry and Ron talking about Snape: > "Do you reckon he could've beaten you and Dumbledore there?" says Ron. > "Not unless he can turn himself into a bat or something," said Harry. > "Wouldn't put it past him," Ron muttered. > > Did anyone happen to look at JKR's sketch of Snape on Pirate Monkey's Snape site??? Very Vampirish!! Tara: I must admit that I've only recently started reading these posts and am not up to date on all the great ideas you all seem to have, but this idea of Snape being a vampire... not so sure. He was appauled of Lupin being a werewolf. He went out of his way to make sure all the students knew Lupin was a werewolf and everything. Wouldn't Snape have had "cravings" of his own that he would need to leave Hogwarts for IF he was vampire? I mean, he can't kill off students for a midnight snack or snag an owl or anything un-noticed! I just can't see how it would fit into the story line. Granted, it is odd that J.K. has mentioned vampires in her books, but we have yet to see one (perhaps the next DADA teacher? ha ha). Its also odd the reference of the bat and the sketch. Sometimes I think we are looking for answers so desperately, that our imaginations are willing to stretch far beyond the basics. Lets hope book 6 will shed a little light!! From gelite67 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 24 03:33:14 2004 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 03:33:14 -0000 Subject: Apparate into Hogwarts? (was Re: Attack on Hogwarts?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107525 Rebecca Trishel wrote: > > The "you can't Apparate into Hogswarts grounds" is a really > > important HP rule that has been followed in all the books. > > Two exceptions: Dobby apparates, and so does the Knight Bus, as I > > remember. Maybe Hogwarts will be attacked by apparating house- > > elves in buses. > Angie replies, hating to belabor the obvious: Just because the rule has been followed up to this point with only two exceptions does not mean there are not other exceptions that JKR has not yet revealed. Maybe I'm making too much of it, but the issue of Apparation keeps coming up, forcing Hermione to "remind" everyone that you can't Apparate. I think Hermione is going to learn you can't believe everything you read in books. From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sat Jul 24 04:50:16 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 04:50:16 -0000 Subject: Neville's memory (or lack of) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107526 >"tjbailey24" wrote: > > Has any of you noticed how often Neville forgets things? Its possible that he's just that way.. magic not coming easily to him and all... got a lot on his mind. I was wondering if any of you thought it possible he had his memory modified at one time? It thinks its possible but I can't come up with any good reason WHY. > What do you think? Neri: in: http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/hypotheticalley.html#trevor You'll find enough great links about Neville's memory for several weeks reading. These are all pre-OotP, but we haven't learn much on this specific subject in OotP anyway. If, however you insist on post- OotP posts, you'll have to enter "Neville" and "memory" in the "search archive" frame in the HPfGU website and start hitting "next". Happy hunting! Neri From dontask2much at yahoo.com Sat Jul 24 00:23:45 2004 From: dontask2much at yahoo.com (charme) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 20:23:45 -0400 Subject: Quick question re: Lupin's resignation / Snape's potion References: Message-ID: <008f01c47114$7bfab8d0$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> No: HPFGUIDX 107527 "huntergreen_3" wrote: > PoA, chpt 19, p358 (paperback) > "I've just been to your office, Lupin. You forgot to take your > potion tonight, so I took a gobletful along." << charme: Ya know, if I was Lupin, I might be a little leery of Snape giving me anything to drink? Assuredly, he knows Snape holds grudges...wouldn't you be just a "tad" wondering "what if this guy is not giving me what he says he is?" From patientx3 at aol.com Sat Jul 24 05:03:45 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 05:03:45 -0000 Subject: Quick question re: Lupin's resignation / Snape's potion In-Reply-To: <008f01c47114$7bfab8d0$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107528 charme: >> Ya know, if I was Lupin, I might be a little leery of Snape giving me anything to drink? Assuredly, he knows Snape holds grudges... wouldn't you be just a "tad" wondering "what if this guy is not giving me what he says he is?" << HunterGreen: Well Harry is, and I know *I* was when I read that. Lupin, though, never seems worried AT ALL. I suppose, in the end, he had no reason to because Snape didn't poison it, but he'd be a hard man to put your faith in. Someone once commented that the whole 'sugar makes it useless' fact was really a lie Snape told Lupin (so he'd at least get the pleasure of forcing Lupin to drink something that tastes really awful when it doesn't have to). I'm sure that's not true, but its a funny thought. From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sat Jul 24 05:19:57 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 05:19:57 -0000 Subject: Doesn't Voldemort know about Snape's loyalty? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107529 Neri wrote: > But I do believe that Snape didn't completely wormed his way back > into Voldy's good graces. The proof: he didn't know about the plot > to lure Harry to the DoM, and he wasn't ordered to do it himself, > although from Voldy's point of view he was perfectly situated to > do just that. Ariston: Hmmm... well, if Snape *is* acting as a double agent (yes, it's a big if, but I still think it's an open possibility, see below) -- if he is acting as a double agent, then both sides realize that he has to look like he's accommodating to the other side. So it wouldn't make sense, for example, for him to be the one to actively lure Harry to the DoM. Neri again: I also tend to the possibility that Snape is a double agent, and in general I agree with what you wrote. However, this argument doesn't hold anymore if one of the sides believes it's end game. In Voldy's case, he thinks (and with a very good reason) he can capture both the irking Potter and the Prophecy in a single move. This looks very much like the decisive blow that will win the war for him, and for such an objective blowing Snape's cover would be worthwhile. So it seems Voldy values Snape enough not to kill him, but not enough to trust him with the most important missions. Neri From sad1199 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 24 05:01:10 2004 From: sad1199 at yahoo.com (sad1199) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 05:01:10 -0000 Subject: ?s about Petunia and Lily. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107530 sad1199 here: Forgive me if this has been discussed already... I have already said that I think Lily (and therefore Petunia) has elves somewhere in her lineage. It is also obvious that Petunia was extremely jealous of that fact that Lily got her letter. I am thinking that that is one of the reasons Petunia is so anti-wizard. I also believe that we will find out that Petunia knows much more about WW than she lets on, especially to Vernon. I am of the opinion that Petunia was always second best to Lily and she is very ashamed of the fact that there is elvin blood in her ancestry (that is just speculation on my part... there is some canon support) but makes sense. Vernon is just a scared bully who can't handle anything he can't perceive but, Petunia knows a lot more about WW than she has appeared to in the past. Any comments? Have a Happy Love Filled Day sad1199 From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 24 07:11:58 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 07:11:58 -0000 Subject: Will Harry muse or be too busy fighting? - Nature of Death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107531 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > " wrote: > snip. > > While I've given up hope of Harry surviving the series, I just hope > > that his friends don't have to pay the price, as well. > > > > > Alla: > > Don't give up hope, Boyd. :o) JKR might surprise you. For now I am > quite confident that except symbolic death, no other kind of death > will catch Harry at the end of the series. Of course JKR may > surprise me as well. > > But as some poster stated, Harry will definitely go into final > battle expecting that this will be his final hour. > > Alla Asian_lovr2: This seems like a point at which I can inject one of my own pet theories without straying to far from the central point. Death is a strange thing, or as I like to say it, there is death then there is death, the two not necessarily being the same. What I'm about to say is not necessarily something I believe WILL happen, it just a theory about one of the things that might happen. There is a general theory, held my many people, that in order for Voldemort to be killed Harry must also die. There are a range of theories on why this is, although I won't go into deep detail here. Suffice to say, that Harry and Voldemort are tied together. Because of this connection Voldemort's degree of immortality remains as long as Harry remains. Conclusion; in the moment after Harry's death Voldemort is most vulnerable, and at that time can be truly killed. Now let me pause and explain about 'there is death and then there is death, the two not necessarily the same'. People die all the time, and in a sense, come back from the dead. I don't mean in books, I mean in everyday muggle life, in the very town you live in. True JKR has said that dead is dead, when you are gone, you are gone, but that was in the context of Harry's parent returning. And, in real life when you are truly dead, you are dead and can't come back. But there are many people who are dead by /some/ definition who do come back. This could be the key to Dumbledore's plan or could just be the course that fate travels, but the idea is that Harry is dead by some definition, but not truly and irreversably dead. Snape mentioned a couple potions that mimic death. There is the Philosopher's stone and Elixer of Life. There are Phoenix tears and Unicorn blood. The point here is that there are precedents in the book for guarding against short term death. By short term death, I mean you can't be killed in the next hour or the next day, rather than a long term protection or some form of immortality. If they plan in advance to guard Harry in the short term against complete death, then Harry may be able to experience an apparent death during which Voldemort becomes vulnerable at which time Neville or Dobby or Ron bump him off completely. After which Harry is revived by the approriate means for which ever method created his appearent death. I've sort of skimped on the details, but I think you get the general idea. Even though JKR says completely dead is completely dead; people who die in real life aren't always irreversably dead. Like I said, there is death and then again there is death, the two not necessarily being the same. Steve/asian_lovr2 From greatraven at hotmail.com Sat Jul 24 07:31:08 2004 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 07:31:08 -0000 Subject: Quick question re: Lupin's resignation . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107532 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tookishgirl_111" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "huntergreen_3" > wrote: > > > Ari wrote: > > > I'm not so sure you can say Lupin put off taking it. He takes it > > > when Snape brings it to him. If Snape doesn't bring the potion until > > > dusk, he can't take it until dusk. > > > > > PoA, chpt 19, p358 (paperback) > > "I've just been to your office, Lupin. You forgot to take your > > potion tonight, so I took a gobletful along." << > > > > See, that's the way I saw it...Snape is the only one who can make the > potion and so he is the one who brings it to Lupin. And I have a > feeling that Snape may, at least unconsciously, bring Lupin his > potion closer to the edge of the time limit hoping Lupin would > transform and thus get sacked. > > I've always had a question concerning the quote above, "...I brought > a gobletful along...", where is it? Did Snape leave it in Lupin's > office or drop it in his rush to catch Black? > > I've also been wary of Lupin's comment of "As long as I take it in > the week preceeding the full moon...". If this is true then why > didn't Snape give it to him earlier? I admit I also wonder why Lupin > didn't remind Snape to give it to him sooner - does he dislike > talking with Snape that much or did he remind Snape and then Snape > blew him off (which would play into my original idea of Snape > purposely pusking the time limit)? > > Tooks - who will continue to defend Lupin to the possible ESE end Sue: But don't forget, the first time we see Snape bringing Lupin the potion, Snape adds that he has made an entire cauldronful in case Lupin needs some more. This sounds helpful to me. And if Snape WAS bringing a goblet of potion when he realised what was going on, he surely didn't know about it till he got there, so again he was being helpful. Then no doubt he forgot about the potion as he was rushing off to catch up with Sirius - apart from the difficulty of carrying a goblet of sloshing liquid with him! Well, he must have forgotten, mustn't he? Who'd want to confront a werewolf AND his dangerous friend? Yes, I think he was trying to help - not necessarily for Lupin's sake but, I suggest, the children's. After all, no matter how much Snape hates Lupin, he surely can't want a raging wolf running around biting the students? Dumbledore wouldn't be too impressed either, if Snape deliberately avoided giving the potion to Lupin. From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 24 07:49:15 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 07:49:15 -0000 Subject: Most burning Snape question? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107533 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "laura" wrote: > Hey there, this is a bit OT but I had the most *amazing* letter this > morning containing tickets to meet JKR at the Edinburgh book > festival on Aug. 15!!!!! > > I've already decided I'm asking her a question on Snape as not many > people ask good Snape questions ... This is what I've got so far: > > 1) Is Snape a pure blood? > 2) Why did he join/leave the Deatheaters? > 3) Has he ever been married/engaged? > 4) Will he ever get the DADA position? > 5) Why did he flinch in GOF when Lucius was named as a DE in the > hospital wing? > > ...edited... If so what are you gonna ask? > > Laura* (who can't believe her luck and is gonna celebrate big time > tonight!!!) Asian_lovr2: Tricky business this question asking. If you ask a question that is too blunt or direct, you risk her giving you a 'non-answer' in order to protect the story. If the question is too flighty, JKR won't take it serious, and again will give you a non-answer. The trick is to phrase your question in a way that allows her to answer without revealing too much about the future books. It's also important to not ask a quesiton that asks for information that you know she will never reveal. That's just a wasted question. So find a question that she is likely to answer. It would also help to ask a somewhat vague question, one that starts with 'is there any chance' or 'is it possible'. That way she can answer without making an absolute commitment to the answer. Take the 'Vampire' issue. If you ask, 'Is Snape a Vampire?', you'll get no answer. If you ask, 'Is there any connection between Snape and Vampires?', that's more vague and allows her to answer without saying absolutely that Snape is a vampire. By the way, that question was asked and answered; he's not. So, please... please... do not ask if Snape is a vampire. Also, you have to ask a question that in all likelihood has a short and sweet answer. In the short time you will have, JKR will not be able to give a long detailed complex answer. Of the ones you suggested. 1) Is Snape a pure blood? Will probably get an answer, but I worry that the answer might be 'isn't it obvious' (Slytherin, DE, Dark Arts, etc...) which in a sense is a non-answer. You might change it to something like, "Can we assume Snape is a pureblood?" 2) Why did he join/leave the Deatheaters? I think the answer to that question is too long and complex, so I'm not sure she will answer. 3) Has he ever been married/engaged? I think she may have implied the answer to this one. I vaguely recall someone asking her if Snape was ever in love and the answer was something like 'who would love someone like Snape?'. I think the person who asked the 'love' question was trying to find a clue to support a link between Snape and Lily. 4) Will he ever get the DADA position? Try re-phrasing it as, "Is there any chance Snape will get the DADA position?". By asking a somewhat vague question, you allow her to answer without commiting herself. This way she doesn't have to say, 'Yes, he will' or 'No, he won't'. It allows her to say 'there is a chance', which implies he will get it but does so without forcing her to commit. 5) Why did Snape flinch in GOF when Lucius was named as a DE in the hospital wing? This one is kind of in the middle. You could maybe re-phrase it to your advantage, and there is some chance it might get answered. But if the answer is too long and complex, I'm sure she will avoid it. I liked some of the question others suggested. Regardless of what happens, you at least get to see her face-to-face, and that is definitely something. Steve/asian_lovr2 From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sat Jul 24 08:55:43 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 04:55:43 -0400 Subject: Apparate into Hogwarts? Message-ID: <002001c4715c$01f156a0$24c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 107534 Angie says: " Maybe I'm making too much of it, but the issue of Apparation keeps coming up, forcing Hermione to "remind" everyone that you can't Apparate. I think Hermione is going to learn you can't believe everything you read in books." DuffyPoo Snape says it, too. " He must have Disapparated, Severus, we should have left somebody in the room with him. When this gets out -- " [Fudge speaking there ] "He didn't disapparate!" Snape roared, now very close at hand. "You can't apparate or disapparate *inside* this castle!" He goes on then to accuse Harry of having something to do with Black's disappearance. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sat Jul 24 09:59:05 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 05:59:05 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Neville's memory (or lack of) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107535 In a message dated 7/24/2004 12:03:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hunibuni22 at webtv.net writes: Has any of you noticed how often Neville forgets things? Its possible that he's just that way.. magic not coming easily to him and all... got a lot on his mind. I was wondering if any of you thought it possible he had his memory modified at one time? It thinks its possible but I can't come up with any good reason WHY. What do you think? ================ Sherrie here: Oh, I can think of several"good" reasons - IF you take it as given that Little Neville witnessed the torture of his parents. Though I somehow doubt the DEs would have left him alive had they known he was there, there are other candidates: A) It may have been done under orders of the Ministry - for benign ("The poor tyke - he shouldn't have to live with that memory!") or not-so-benign ("Can't take a chance he might someday say something inconvenient," said Fudge or Umbridge). B) It might have been done by/at the request of Gran Longbottom, probably for the benign purose cited above, but... Just a couple of thoughts - about all I've got this time in the morning! Sherrie "Unless history lives in our present, it has no future." PRESERVE OUR CIVIL WAR BATTLEFIELDS! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat Jul 24 10:08:22 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 10:08:22 -0000 Subject: Attack on Hogwarts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107536 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "boyd_smythe" wrote: > > Kneasy wrote: > > > > I'll be quite disappointed if Hogwarts remains unpenetrated and if > > (when) it is I expect the showdown to happen in the Chamber. > > Hmmm, let's see. Reasons why your theory makes sense: > > * No evidence yet that Jo enjoys penning bloody battles--the closest > example is the centaurs and Grawp, and even that was fairly harmless > for younger readers. So if she can get the main characters in a room > together for the final showdown, she avoids massive LOTR-style wars. > Kneasy: Yeah; there'll be no great battles, the Giants are down to a demoralised handful and the Goblins appear to be sitting this one out. As Pip opined in her epic post 40044 (should be compulsory reading for all would-be analysts) this is a war of skirmishes, a low intensity war. So any 'battle' would work best in a fairly confined space. Boyd: > * From a cinematic standpoint (if that description makes sense within > a book), the Chamber would be a great backdrop. Take the battle to > Hogwarts, Harry's home, but also to the Chamber within it, > Voldy's/Tom's home. High, soaring walls and statues of Slyth. > > * Some might argue that the Chamber is where this all began--Slytherin > started the WW down a path of racism, and Tom either echoes his > sentiments or carries his spirit (Vapor!Mort). Ending Voldy's reign > here would bring the story full-circle. And this would be the best > place to reveal any more secrets the Chamber contains. > Kneasy: That's my take on it. A last desparate mission to root out the evil at it's source. And if Voldy has plans for destroying/taking over Hogwarts, what better place to start than from somewhere within. And CoS is supposedly the book where JKR has planted some significant clues. Could it be that we've all been concentrating so much on the actions of characters that we've missed something important about the Chamber itself? Boyd: > * It's from you, Kneasy. 'Nuff said. Kneasy: It's probably unwise to be swayed by my glib patter. Any old rubbish that looks vaguely interesting and I'll slap it on the board. It's no more likely than the worst excesses of the SHIPping fraternity. Um, well, on second thoughts maybe not quite that bad. Boyd: > On the other hand, we've been to new places in every book, so perhaps > the showdown will happen somewhere we haven't yet been. Then Jo can > build the meeting however she wants. An existing location could be a > bit limiting, whereas she can set the stage however she wants if she > moves it to a new site. Weapons, allies, revelations, whatever. Just a > thought. > Could it be the Hogwarts cemetery? still could fit with the whole > spirit of Slytherin/Vapor!Mort theory Kneasy: I'm a bit wary about this Hogwarts cemetary thing - not that it exists, herself has said so (or is reported as having done so). But we've already had one fight in a cemetary and having the rotting cadavers of the undead heaving themselves out of one of Prof. Sprouts flower beds doesn't strike me as being JKR's sort of thing. Be a good place for a revelation or two, names on headstones suddenly forming unsuspected links, maybe. So far, of all the named places of significance in the WW, there's only one we haven't been to - Azkaban. Now that the Dementors have gone Harry and his chums could visit without having an attack of the vapours. I'm ignoring foreign parts -Durmstrang, Beauxbatons, Dragon reservations, Egypt, etc., mostly because I can't see how she'd get the whole of Harry's support team to them with any facility. A school trip? International Quidditch? Seems unlikely. So - I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain. It'll be the Chamber take 2. From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sat Jul 24 10:22:20 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 06:22:20 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Balance of Power in the Wizarding World Message-ID: <1c8.1c385add.2e33925c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107537 In a message dated 7/24/2004 12:04:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, yswahl at stis.net writes: A War doesnt make sense unless there is a balance of power to start. Otherwise one side would have vanquished the other a long time ago.... ============= Sherrie here: Wars almost never make sense in my book - but history is replete with instances of one country/city-state/bloc/faction beginning a war without regard to the size/strength of its neighbor. I'll give you one very good example - the American Civil War. The Federals (Union) had more manpower, better transportation, better communication, more industrial capability, more materiel (and in the end, the shrewder Kentuckian at the top), but that didn't stop the Confederates from firing on Fort Sumter, or attacking at Bull Run. The Confederacy, in any objective view, never had a snowball's chance in July of winning - but they slugged it out for four long years, through 620,000+ deaths and gods alone know how many irreparably damaged bodies and souls. The flip side, of course, is the American Revolution - when the Colonials, with little cohesion, a tiny army with no training to speak of, no real manufacturing, and no finances, whupped the British - THE superpower in the world at that time - hard enough and often enough to make it too expensive for the Crown to keep pouring its resources into what was a losing proposition. Win one, lose one... BTW, I'm curious as to where you get your documentation for the following statement: I don't see Sirius being that powerful within the Order. (I make no judgments on the level of his PERSONAL power, as we barely get to see him use it.) In fact, I see him as something of a ward of the Order - certainly not as Dumbledore's capo di tutti capi... To me, his role was somewhat analogous to that of Mary Surratt in the plot to kidnap/assassinate Lincoln - he "owned the nest where the egg was hatched" (Grimmauld Place), but played only a peripheral role in the activities of the "bird". FWIW, Sherrie "Unless history lives in our present, it has no future." PRESERVE OUR CIVIL WAR BATTLEFIELDS! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sat Jul 24 10:27:54 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 06:27:54 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Quick question re: Lupin's resignation . . . Message-ID: <1ec.25cdbb9a.2e3393aa@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107538 In a message dated 7/24/2004 12:53:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tookishgirl_111 at yahoo.com writes: I've also been wary of Lupin's comment of "As long as I take it in the week preceeding the full moon...". If this is true then why didn't Snape give it to him earlier? ============== Sherrie here: See, I've always read that as indicating that he had to take it the WHOLE week before the full moon - as in nightly/daily doses, NOT just once sometime during that week. But maybe that's just me... Sherrie "Unless history lives in our present, it has no future." PRESERVE OUR CIVIL WAR BATTLEFIELDS! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dolis5657 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 24 07:35:29 2004 From: dolis5657 at yahoo.com (dcgmck) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 07:35:29 -0000 Subject: Ginny and the Veil Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107539 > Now Cory: > > I don't know whether young TR saw MM's death or not, but for > purposes of your argument, I would argue that it does not matter. > > > > [snip] Thus, if we are theorizing that Ginny was mesmerized by the veil because of her possession by Riddle, it should not matter whether Riddle saw MM's death. [snip] . . . this assumes that being entranced by the veil and seeing the thestrals are triggered by *exactly* the same thing, which is not necessarily true. We know that seeing the thestrals is triggered by *seeing* death. It is possible that entrancement by the veil results from something else relating to death, other than physically seeing it. [snip] gmck: There have been some persuasive comments along these lines about tangential causes of attraction related but not identical to the threstral trigger. The one that seems to make the most sense to me at present is the fact that Ginny's encounter with Riddle led to a near-death experience. (Witness Riddle's near-solidity when Harry arrives in the chamber.) Another similarly plausible hypothesis is that Ginny has entertained thoughts of suicide as a consequence of her diary-possession. When she is telling Harry about her experience, she does note that she was sufficiently frustrated and afraid when she first began awaking with no memory that she became quite desperate. (I really have to start quoting more specifically...) Anyway, suffice to say my feet have moved on this topic... :-? From sad1199 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 24 09:07:11 2004 From: sad1199 at yahoo.com (sad1199) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 09:07:11 -0000 Subject: Apparate into Hogwarts? (was Re: Attack on Hogwarts?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107540 Rebecca Trishel wrote: > > > The "you can't Apparate into Hogswarts grounds" is a really > > > important HP rule that has been followed in all the books. > > > Two exceptions: Dobby apparates, and so does the Knight Bus, as I > > > remember. Maybe Hogwarts will be attacked by apparating house- > > > elves in buses. sad1199 replies: I don't think the two apparitions actually appeared inside Hogwarts grounds. I am almost positive the bus stopped outside Hogsmeade (or outside Hogwarts grounds) and they had to walk to Hogwarts and I don't remember reading where Dobby apparated in Hogwarts. Could someone enlighten me? From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat Jul 24 11:42:20 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (Barry Arrowsmith) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 12:42:20 +0100 Subject: RADIO TBAY: The News Message-ID: <85ADB66D-DD66-11D8-B52B-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107541 "It's just past the Witching Hour on the Wizarding Wireless Network and that means it's time for the News. "There has been another mass break-out from Azkaban Prison and ten prisoners are missing. Their absence was discovered by Ethelfrida Cluckbucket, a meals orderly, when she realised that she had ten more breakfasts than prisoners to serve them to. "Concern over potential security breakdown was voiced last month after Dementors abandoned their posts after receiving what they referred to as "A more attractive professional package that gave them greater scope for individual decision-making and a more hands-on approach to cross-species interactions" from an unknown entrepreneur who was intent on diversifying his work-force. "In a statement made at the scene earlier today Cornelius Fudge expressed dismay at the events." [Cue Fudge] "This has been a great shock to us all - why, I was here myself only last night and it seemed secure enough then. We found notes in the cells claiming that the prison issue sheets were in fact Lethifolds and that the prisoners were being eaten alive. Further investigation has revealed that the woodwork classes, recommended as social therapy by Cissie Fluffbunny, a renowned expert in the rehabilitation of offenders, was in fact used as a cover to make a loom. Sheets and blankets were unravelled and re-woven into a magic carpet on which the miscreants made their escape. This is unconscionable; don't they realise that magic carpets are illegal? The full weight of the Wizengamot will fall on these malefactors." [End Fudge] "The Minister refused to comment when questioned about the rumoured relationship between Ms Fluffbunny and a female inmate who was one of the escapees, or to suggestions that the wood used was from a batch of non-standard Quidditch brooms stored in the Ministry while awaiting testing by the Broom Regulatory Office. "Other news. "A militant faction of House Elves Against Clothes, the Elvish organisation dedicated to resisting enforced freedom, admitted responsibility for yesterdays attack on the 'Mrs Skowers Household Cleansers' facility where all the magical cleaning products were turned into chocolate milk shakes. They gave the place a good dusting, ironed the curtains and polished the brassware before leaving. "A disaster was averted when an elite Muggle Protection Squad apparated into the centre of Coventry to remove a dragon. After stunning the beast the Squad spelled onlookers into believing that they had been watching a Chinese New Year Parade, handed out fireworks and apparated out with the dragon. The fireballs that had engulfed the local swim centre and scorched the geraniums outside the Town Hall were later attributed by the Muggle authorities to over-exuberant celebrations. "The great and the good of the Wizarding World flocked last night to the premiere of "Heartburn" - a romantic comedy set amid the Salem witch trials. Our Arts Correspondent reports. [Cue rec.] "This has been a night and a show to remember. The stars of the piece, Jocinta Love - who plays 'Flirty' Gertie Kettlebum, an innocent but determined sorceress and Lance Broomhandle who portrayed 'Burn 'em' Mather, the prosecutor with a heart of gold, had no less than nine curtain calls. The inspired casting of Eric the Educated Ferret as the go-between for the star-crossed lovers drew universal admiration. This one will run and run. This is Artie Plonquer, the Cauldron Theatre, Ipswich." [End rec.] "And news just in. East African wizards are battling to subdue a Nundu that has been ravaging the countryside. Villages have been evacuated and domestic cattle as well as tens of thousands of wildebeests have been wiped out. "That is the end of the news - or should that be gnus." From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sat Jul 24 11:57:22 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 11:57:22 -0000 Subject: Apparate into Hogwarts? (was Re: Attack on Hogwarts?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107542 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sad1199" wrote: > Rebecca Trishel wrote: > > > > The "you can't Apparate into Hogswarts grounds" is a really > > > > important HP rule that has been followed in all the books. > > > > Two exceptions: Dobby apparates, and so does the Knight Bus, > sad1199 replies: > > I don't think the two apparitions actually appeared inside Hogwarts grounds. I am almost positive the bus stopped outside Hogsmeade (or outside Hogwarts grounds) and they had to walk to Hogwarts and I don't remember reading where Dobby apparated in Hogwarts. Could someone enlighten me? Valky: I dont believe Dobby actually apparated *into* or *out of* Hogwarts. I assume since the students learn apparition at school during their latter years that apparition *within* Hogwarts Grounds is permitted and possible. In the paragraph where Dobby apparates in Hogwarts (COS The Rogue Bludger) Macgonagall and Dumbledore are approaching the hospital wing with Colin Creevey, who has been petrified, so he *needs* to make a quick exit, in this case an adjacent room out of view of the teachers would suffice or even to the Howarts entrance where he could run through to the other side and apparate home. ******I think that the attack is already planned, has been since Chamber Of Secrets, and the assault will come from behind the mirror on the Fourth floor!!!********* From Zarleycat at aol.com Sat Jul 24 12:24:45 2004 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 12:24:45 -0000 Subject: Will Harry muse or be too busy fighting? (was: When Harry met Sally) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107543 > SSSusan wrote: > > >Personally--and most here know that I just adore Harry, so I'm not > > >saying this to be cruel or mean--I hope we do get to see some of > > >this internal wrestling over what he "has" to do. It wouldn't seem > > >realistic to me if he didn't at least seriously, seriously > > >question "his" burden and wonder about opting out. > > I wonder, though, about the attacks flying thick & fast. I would > love to hear others' opinions about whether we will, indeed, > *finally* see some battle action or whether that will be held off yet > again, 'til Book 7. It seems time for it, but I thought it was time > for it after the graveyard scene/Harry & DD's announcement of Voldy's > return at the end of 4th year. Yet we were strung along for nearly > the whole of Book 5, with Voldy still lying low, and all that talk > about a weapon, until we finally saw one battle and one death in the > MoM. > > Not that I'm necessarily anxious for carnage, you understand, but it > surprised me that there was so little in OoP. > > Anyone else care to offer an opinion of whether Harry will spend much > time wrestling with "his" burden & his choice to accept it, or > whether there'll be little time for such musings because of all the > Voldy-DE attacks we're sure to see in HBP? > Marianne replies: I think what we may see could follow two different tracks, sort of an internal and external assessment. Harry has to come to terms within himself about the Prophecy while dealing with his grief for Sirius. At some point he is also going to have to fully admit to himself the part that he himself played, however unintentionally, in Sirius' death. He can't lean on his anger at Dumbledor or his blaming of Snape forever. While I thought those emotions were understandable at the time, right after Sirius' death, Harry is going to have to recognize how complex things get when a lot of people are involved in potentially dangerous doings. I think Book 6 Harry may be somewhat withdrawn at first, as part of this internal struggle because he knows now how fully his existence is tied to Voldemort and that Voldie and his DEs will not hesitate to kill or torture to get what they want. Yes, Harry experienced this at the end of GoF. But, this time it's struck deep within his own defenses because he lost someone he cared about deeply. He would quite naturally worry about safety of the others around him, like Hermione and the Weasleys. And perhaps having that bunch of DEs now residing in Azkaban gives JKR some plot time for Harry to deal with his internal struggle without having to worry about DEs running around murdering and pillaging. At least, not right away. But, I think Harry will also increasing see the upcoming action (and carnage) externally. What I mean is that, regardless of his own experiences, he'll witness attacks on people who have no connection to him at all. But, because of what he's experienced, he'll have a more finely-honed empathy with the survivors of those attacks. At the same time, if the adults behave as adults and the government gets its collective head out of its own arse, Harry might be able to recognize that there are other good people fighting this fight with hm. This might help him accept what he has to do, not necessarily as part of his "saving people thing" but as one part of the overall struggle to rid the world of Voldemort once and for all. And carnage? Oh, yeah. More people will die, and I'm betting they won't all be bit players that we've seen for only a page or two. Harry's going to lose other people he cares about. And, some that we care about, too. Marianne From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Sat Jul 24 13:48:54 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:48:54 -0000 Subject: Attack on Hogwarts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107544 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > > So far, of all the named places of significance in the WW, there's only > one we haven't been to - Azkaban. Now that the Dementors have gone > Harry and his chums could visit without having an attack of the vapours. Carolyn: Worth remembering something she says on her website about the earliest versions of Chapter 1 of PS/SS: '[I had] the Potters living on a remote island, Hermione's family living on the mainland, her father spotting something that resembles an explosion out at sea and sailing out in a storm to find their bodies in the ruins of their house.' She says she subsequently re-located the Potters to Godric's Hollow, for plot reasons, but then goes on to say: 'I have come close to using a chapter very like this in PS, POA, OOP, but here [ie Book 6] finally, it works...when you read it, just know that it's been about thirteen years in the brewing.' It seems to me that the idea of an explosion on an island out at sea could very well become an explosion at Azkaban. Carolyn Who has taken to printing out dated pages from the website, after the wand order episode... From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Sat Jul 24 14:28:05 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 24 Jul 2004 14:28:05 -0000 Subject: DADA teacher in HBP (and possibly in book 7) Message-ID: <20040724142805.6890.qmail@webmail30.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107545 Hi all, Sorry to restart the old discussion, but I couldn?t help. I am re-reading the books for any clues possible, and came across a strange pattern about the DADA teachers. In book1 and 4, we have a teacher who is a (hidden) supporter of Lord Voldemort and in the school to help Lord Voldemort get a specific thing (in 1, the Stone and in 4, Harry himself). They both try and kill Harry. In book 2 and 5, we have a teacher who is so horrible that his/her departure from school is celebrated by teachers (including McGonall). So expanding on this, we have a teacher in book 3 and 6, who is very good in the DADA stuff ('If you mean Professor Lupin,' piped up Dean angrily, 'he was the best we ever -' OOtP) and teaches the students many things. As JKR has said that books 6 and 7 are like two parts of same novel, I think the same person continues otherwise we have the teacher who is supporter of Lord Voldemort in the last part. Assuming we don?t have any new characters in 6 and 7 (as HBP is considered to be a title of a person we know and not a person we don?t know about), I think either Lupin is back, or Moody (the real one for a change). Dumbledore can teach the subject (in my opinion, that will be the best thing), but then his subject was Transfiguration, so can?t say, right??? Ok, now I have thrown my theory on the list, waiting for any *me, too*s and *no way*s Amey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From theadimail at yahoo.co.in Sat Jul 24 15:09:28 2004 From: theadimail at yahoo.co.in (theadimail) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 15:09:28 -0000 Subject: Just thinking Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107546 Hi, After reading the explanation Dumbledore gives about why he wanted Harry at Petunia's house, I was struck by a point. I mean, he doesn't have to live at Privet Drive compulsorily, right? He can live wherever she lives. I mean, suppose the wizarding world has a new minister who decides that leaving the Dursleys alone would be inviting disatser and have them all moved to some safe place, the protection will still work, right? Bye Adi From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Jul 24 15:45:25 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 15:45:25 -0000 Subject: Most burning Snape question? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107547 Laura: > > I've already decided I'm asking her a question on Snape as not many people ask good Snape questions ... This is what I've got so far: > > > > 1) Is Snape a pure blood? > > 2) Why did he join/leave the Deatheaters? > > 3) Has he ever been married/engaged? > > 4) Will he ever get the DADA position? > > 5) Why did he flinch in GOF when Lucius was named as a DE in the hospital wing?<< Steve: . By the way, that question was > asked and answered; he's not. So, please... please... do not ask if Snape is a vampire.< Pippin: JKR's answer was only definitive if you think her hand wasn't in the cookie jar. But I agree that it's as definitive as we're going to get, short of Book Seven. So I'd ask "Can you tell us why Snape never eats at Grimmauld Place" If the answer is something like, "I can't tell you, but clever people have already guessed," it won't settle the debate, but it will prove that it's a clue and not a Snave. (Evans, spelled backward. Like it?) JKR has already said that teacher marriages are classified, so I wouldn't ask about that. Pippin who thinks that the "Perseus Evans" anagram is another Snave From mnaperrone at aol.com Sat Jul 24 16:08:04 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 16:08:04 -0000 Subject: Lupin's resignation/Snape's involvement [was quick question re: Lupin's resigna] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107548 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "huntergreen_3" wrote: > Ally wrote(on the subject of whether Snape was the one who told on > Lupin being a werewolf): > >> I sort of agree with Mayeaux about the reference in POA film - > which seems to leave it oddly hanging in the air. Why not reveal to > the film audience that Snape was the one who leaked the information, > if that was what we were supposed to take from the book? I know we > can't take the films as gospel, and maybe JKR was just careless with > the way she wrote it and really intended to show that Snape forced > Lupin's hand, but I think the way its written leaves it open to > interpretation. << > > HunterGreen: > I don't see any reason to not take Hagrid's statement that Snape told > on Lupin at face value. He was extremely angry, and on top of that > Lupin had NOT taken his potion like he was supposed to and had > TRANSFORMED and nearly killed 6 people (those being Snape, Sirius, > Peter, and the trio). I don't really blame Snape in this situation, > it was probably understood, or specifically stated, when Lupin began > teaching that it was under the condition that he'd take the potion > every month so that he didn't endanger anyone. And, whatever the > circumstances, that didn't happen. He proved that he wasn't able to > keep himself safe, so it was better he leave. If he forgot once, > who's to say he wouldn't forget again? Ally: But again, what is face value? When I first read Hagrid's statement, I took it to mean that Snape told the Slytherins Lupin was leaving and why - not that this was him leaking the information that got Lupin fired. I didn't see it as Snape telling the Slytherins which led to Lupin resigning until I started reading that interpretation on the boards. I think Hagrid's statement could be read both ways - as Snape merely announcing Lupin's resignation and as Snape leaking the information, leading to the resignation. The big question is - did JKR intend to write it in such a way? Did she intend two possible interpretations or did she write it with the idea that Snape had started the wheel in motion and just inadvertently wrote it with two possible interpretations. From mnaperrone at aol.com Sat Jul 24 16:25:16 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 16:25:16 -0000 Subject: Most burning Snape question? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107549 Laura: > Hey there, this is a bit OT but I had the most *amazing* letter this > morning containing tickets to meet JKR at the Edinburgh book festival > on Aug. 15!!!!! > > I've already decided I'm asking her a question on Snape as not many > people ask good Snape questions when she does stuff like this, plus > he's my *favourite* character. But I can't think of a good enough > question, one that she won't say "I can't reveal that yet", that's > never been asked before, and that maybe has a couple of questions > sneaked into one ;) Any ideas? This is what I've got so far: > > 1) Is Snape a pure blood? > 2) Why did he join/leave the Deatheaters? > 3) Has he ever been married/engaged? > 4) Will he ever get the DADA position? > 5) Why did he flinch in GOF when Lucius was named as a DE in the > hospital wing? > > I really can't think of any more, I'm too excited to think! She > probably won't answer most of these anyway. I need other fans' help, > I've already asked the snapesupport lot. Has anyone got a list of > Snape questions they really want answered? (Stupid question really) > And did anyone else get lucky? If so what are you gonna ask? Ally: Congratulations! That should be a blast. Of the questions you've asked, I think the most answerable is #1 - and itwould be interesting to find out. Like someone else said - its yes/no or unanswerable, and unanswerable would be a pretty good answer, too, cause it means its very significant. The #4 question is along the same lines, although might not tell us as much if she doesn't answer it. At least with #1, if she doesn't answer it, we will know Snape's lineage is important. We already have the inclination Snape's inability to get the DADA position is important, so her not answering that question, wouldn't shed any new light. I would love to ask her (although not sure she would answer): 1) Will we see Snape mature as a character in regards to his relationship with Harry? 2) [a related question] Will Snape and Harry ever learn to work together? 3) Will Snape and Harry's inability to trust one another lead them or other Order members in a dangerous situation in future books? (a very specific question - a nonanswer here could be very interesting) 4) Were Snape and Lily friends at Hogwarts at any time? 5) Did Snape's decision to leave (or join) the Death Eaters have anything to do with James or Lily Potter? (maybe better than just asking why he left - at least this would rule in/rule out a possibility) You'll write a very big and interesting report on your trip, I hope? Enjoy Ally From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Jul 24 16:34:19 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 16:34:19 -0000 Subject: Why Snape doesn't have to be human Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107550 Jim Ferer stated in a recent post that Snape is an example of someone with social phobia. I agree with this, but I think the social phobia stems from a basic lack of empathy. It would be hard to function in a social situation if you couldn't pick up on what other people were feeling. Snape reveals this in OOP: "Well then, you'll know [Harry']'s so arrogant that criticism simply bounces off him" --OOP ch 24. If this is a sincere statement, then Snape is unaware of the effect his criticisms have on Harry. If you think the mystery is *why* Snape has so little empathy for Harry, and that the solution to Harry's Snape problems is for Snape to become more empathetic, then making him non-human is a cop-out, and I can see why people would find it disappointing. But if you think the mystery, or rather the problem for Harry, is whether he can find a way to work with a person who has so little empathy, and treats him so poorly as a result, then the question of whether Snape was born with little empathy or lost it as a result of some trauma is less relevant. The solution for Harry would not depend on Snape changing, but on Harry changing his expectations of Snape. Non-human origin would then simply be an elegant way of stating that Snape was born the way he is, and there isn't much Harry can do about it. I think that this bears very deeply on JKR's thinking about bigotry and prejudice. It is always easier to empathize with people who are like us. If we do what is easy and prefer to co-operate only with people who show empathy towards us, we will always have a preference for people like ourselves and we will always have a bigoted society. Pippin From mnaperrone at aol.com Sat Jul 24 16:41:52 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 16:41:52 -0000 Subject: Doesn't Voldemort know about Snape's loyalty? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107551 > Neri wrote: > > But I do believe that Snape didn't completely wormed his way back > > into Voldy's good graces. The proof: he didn't know about the plot > > to lure Harry to the DoM, and he wasn't ordered to do it himself, > > although from Voldy's point of view he was perfectly situated to > > do just that. > > Ariston: > Hmmm... well, if Snape *is* acting as a double agent (yes, it's a > big if, but I still think it's an open possibility, see below) -- if > he is acting as a double agent, then both sides realize that he has > to look like he's accommodating to the other side. So it wouldn't > make sense, for example, for him to be the one to actively lure > Harry to the DoM. > > Neri again: > I also tend to the possibility that Snape is a double agent, and in > general I agree with what you wrote. However, this argument doesn't > hold anymore if one of the sides believes it's end game. In Voldy's > case, he thinks (and with a very good reason) he can capture both the > irking Potter and the Prophecy in a single move. This looks very much > like the decisive blow that will win the war for him, and for such an > objective blowing Snape's cover would be worthwhile. So it seems > Voldy values Snape enough not to kill him, but not enough to trust > him with the most important missions. > > Neri Ally: I think it depends on Snape's role within the DE organization. I've always sort of thought that Snape's job with V was to serve as a spy in Hogwarts. Based on the timing, Snape would have taken the job at Hogwarts while V was still at the height of his power, before the Potters were killed. Either he was already working for DD and they set it up together, telling V he could be a spy inside Hogwarts when he was actually spying for DD, or he started out spying for V and then switched sides after he was inside DD. In any case, V might not want to put such sensitive information inside Snape's head, perhaps for fear DD would somehow find out, just as he eventually figured out Barty Crouch was working for him. V apparently considers DD dangerous enough to be afraid of him, so why disclose the DOM scheme to someone who is in close contact with your most hated and powerful enemy if you don't have to? Assuming he hatched the scheme after he realized he had contact with Harry, it would make the most sense to use THAT way to lure Harry - since apparently, V does not know that DD's and Harry's relationship is anything more significant than headmaster to student. HE would think he could manipulate Harry on his own with less risk of DD finding out. Plus, V may have figured that Harry/DD would be leery of trusting anything that seemed unusual in a Professor after the Barty Crouch thing, so he probably figured his way was the most fullproof. From dontask2much at yahoo.com Sat Jul 24 13:15:04 2004 From: dontask2much at yahoo.com (charme) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 09:15:04 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Theory on James and Lilly Potters occupations References: Message-ID: <027a01c47180$3c51e890$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> No: HPFGUIDX 107552 From: "nihil8750o" > First I'll start with James. I believe that he was an Auror. I know this is > absolutely not unique, but there has been a lot of clues in the books > especially "OotP". Such as Kingsley Shacklebolt's familiar refrence to James > when being first introduced to Harry. His comment on Harry looking like > James indicates a relationship that goes beyond a casual acquaintance with > James. Although it is possible that he met James somewhere else (like > Hogwarts); it is also concievable that they worked together in the Auror > department hence developing some kind of familar bond. Also the only other > family to combat Lord Voldemort thrice and live is the Longbottoms who > where Aurors. (I mean it would not make much sense for James and Lily > Potter to face the dark lord multible times if James was a janitor or something > not in the field of dark arts defence eventhough they were in the Order of the > Phoenix). > Now if it is hard to swallow that Lilly was the DAtDA teacher here are some > points that show that possibly at least one of the Potters (Lilly or James) held > that Hogwarts position. Charme: Hmmm. While that's possible, one would have thought JKR would mention this, or someone would, as those that are Aurors are mentioned quite often by multiple characters. I am quite intrigued at the thought of one of them being the DatDA teachers; my bet isn't on Lily it's on James in this case. That would make the Snape factor much more dynamic, as Snapey-poo would want a position he could have shown he himself was much better at than James was. As for Lily, I'm thinking the DoM - an Unspeakable. She would have had the ability to research and find the type of counter curse she used. Nice post, BTW. :) Welcome! From tekayjaye at yahoo.com Sat Jul 24 13:22:22 2004 From: tekayjaye at yahoo.com (Tekay Jaye) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 06:22:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Quick question re: Lupin's resignation / Snape's potion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040724132222.35293.qmail@web90005.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107553 HunterGreen: Well Harry is, and I know *I* was when I read that. Lupin, though, never seems worried AT ALL. I suppose, in the end, he had no reason to because Snape didn't poison it, but he'd be a hard man to put your faith in. Someone once commented that the whole 'sugar makes it useless' fact was really a lie Snape told Lupin (so he'd at least get the pleasure of forcing Lupin to drink something that tastes really awful when it doesn't have to). I'm sure that's not true, but its a funny thought. Tekay: I don't think that Snape is lying to Lupin about the sugar. "Professor Snape has very kindly concocted a potion for me," [Lupin] said. "I have never been much of a potion-brewer and this one is particularly complex....Pity sugar makes it useless." (PoS, 156-7, US hardback) Lupin seems to know how to make the potion and what the finished product should taste like. He's just not a potions master, so Snape, who is, prepared it for him. From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sat Jul 24 14:06:21 2004 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 07:06:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Quick question re: Lupin's resignation / Snape's potion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040724140621.284.qmail@web50102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107554 --- huntergreen_3 wrote: > Well Harry is, and I know *I* was when I read that. Lupin, though, > never seems worried AT ALL. I suppose, in the end, he had no reason > to because Snape didn't poison it, but he'd be a hard man to put > your faith in. Someone once commented that the whole 'sugar makes > it useless' fact was really a lie Snape told Lupin (so he'd at least > get the pleasure of forcing Lupin to drink something that tastes > really awful when it doesn't have to). I'm sure that's not true, > but its a funny thought. I'm posting three times today (sorry! don't thwap me!) but I can't resist this because I've always imagined the three-way dialogue about this matter: (Dumbledore's office, three-way meeting) Dumbledore: You're settling in comfortably, Remus? The wolfsbane potion agrees with you? Lupin: Oh, yes, thank you very much Headmaster. It's a wonderful discovery and I'm very grateful to Severus (*nods at Snape*) for making it for me. Snape: *GRUNT* Dumbledore: Excellent. I'm so glad that everything is working out so well. We are fortunate indeed to have Severus here. Few wizards in the world are up to the task. (*Smiles at Snape*) Snape: *SMIRK/GRUNT* Lupin: Yes. There's just one thing - the taste - I don't suppose - maybe a teaspoon of sugar? - Dumbledore: Severus? Snape: No, I'm sorry Lupin but unfortunately sugar renders the potion entirely useless. Lupin: (*sighs*) Too bad. Dumbledore: Well, it's only once a month, Remus. And now if you will excuse me.... Snape and Lupin leave. Snape thinks on the way back to the dungeons: "What a whiner. Sugar! Of course vanilla, cinnamon, chocolate and wild cherry extract would have no affect at all but he didn't ask about those." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From brenda-chaisson at rogers.com Sat Jul 24 15:16:13 2004 From: brenda-chaisson at rogers.com (Brenda Chaisson) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 11:16:13 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Half Blood Prince Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c47191$28df0e80$6500a8c0@MAIN> No: HPFGUIDX 107555 LadyMyneh writes: The evidence: -JKR has said that Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince was originally the title of Chamber of Secrets, and that Chamber of Secrets holds more clues to the events of book 6 than any other. It is in CoS that we find out about Hagrid's past at Hogwarts. The only other big revelation in that novel is the one about Tom Riddle/Voldemort, and we know that Voldemort is not the HBP. Luckdragon64 writes: Until JKR reveals who the halfblood prince is my bets are on Tom Riddle! There is a passage in COS where Dobby tells Harry he was giving him a clue about Tom Riddle, not Voldemort, because he had not changed his name yet at that point. This clearly defines that in JKR's world Tom and Voldemort are not considered one and the same. COS was about Harry and Tom Riddle. I think HBP will be about Harry learning more about why Tom Riddle became Voldemort. Brenda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bonoskite99 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 24 14:58:22 2004 From: bonoskite99 at yahoo.com (Liz S.) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 07:58:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Quick question re: Lupin's resignation In-Reply-To: <1090678842.16210.97253.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040724145822.70594.qmail@web21006.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107556 tookishgirl_111 at yahoo.com writes: I've also been wary of Lupin's comment of "As long as I take it in the week preceeding the full moon...". If this is true then why didn't Snape give it to him earlier? ============== Sherrie here: See, I've always read that as indicating that he had to take it the WHOLE week before the full moon - as in nightly/daily doses, NOT just once sometime during that week. But maybe that's just me... Now me, Liz (who lurks a lot but doesn't post much!): I agree with Sherrie, that the potion had to be taken the full week before the full moon, almost like that much needs to be in his system constantly that week leading up, and then the accumulative amount during the full moon. Because if he only had to take it once during that week leading up to the full moon, he could just ignore the lunar calendar and take it once each week as a precaution. I think it's just like the birth control pill, you've gotta do it on a schdeule or it doesn't work right. So he forgot it that night, and that's when he was out in the full moon, it wasn't safe, and that's why he transformed. From griffin782002 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 24 15:27:47 2004 From: griffin782002 at yahoo.com (griffin782002) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 15:27:47 -0000 Subject: Sirius's Will In-Reply-To: <77.2ef41821.2e32b250@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107557 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Meliss9900 at a... wrote: I doubt Mrs Black would scream if she were given to the Malfoys. She'd have > no reason to; no "Blood traitors" or "Mudbloods" mucking the place up. > Kreachur would probably be in 7th heaven as well. He'd have a "proper" family to > attend. > > Although cutting that portion of the wall out to get rid of her is a good > idea. I guess that it didn't occur to the order members because it seems to be a > Muggle answer to a magical problem. Griffin782002: Well, this is a good point, but I have the impression that Mrs Black wants the others to do what she considers proper. I think if they send Mrs Black's portrait will start scream because they could not listen to her "wise" suggestions. Or I think so. Griffin782002 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Jul 24 17:41:15 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 17:41:15 -0000 Subject: Quick question re: Lupin's resignation In-Reply-To: <20040724145822.70594.qmail@web21006.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107558 > Now me, Liz (who lurks a lot but doesn't post much!): > > I agree with Sherrie, that the potion had to be taken the full week before the full moon, almost like that much needs to be in his system constantly that week leading up, and then the accumulative amount during the full moon. Because if he only had to take it once during that week leading up to the full moon, he could just ignore the lunar calendar and take it once each week as a precaution. I think it's just like the birth control pill, you've gotta do it on a schdeule or it doesn't work right. So he forgot it that night, and that's when he was out in the full moon, it wasn't safe, and that's why he transformed.< Possible. But it could work like the polyjuice potion, which lasts for an hour from when you take it, only in this case the effective period would be seven days. In that case, Lupin would only have to take it "in the week before the full moon" because regardless of when he took it during that period, the dose would last long enough to protect him. Since the potion is very unpleasant to use and very difficult to make, I can see why Lupin wouldn't be taking it every week as a precaution. I find it hard to understand why Snape and Lupin would be conversing in code during the goblet scene. It's easy to understand the map episode, because neither Snape nor Lupin wants Harry to know about the relationship between the map and Sirius Black. But it seems odd that Snape would actively conceal a fact about the potion on Saturday when he's planning to drop hints about Lupin's nature the following Friday in DADA class. Or do you think he was trying to put Lupin off his guard? Pippin From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sat Jul 24 17:51:53 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 17:51:53 -0000 Subject: Why Snape doesn't have to be human In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107559 > Pippin wrote: > > But if you think the mystery, or rather the problem for Harry, is > whether he can find a way to work with a person who has so > little empathy, and treats him so poorly as a result, then the > question of whether Snape was born with little empathy or lost it > as a result of some trauma is less relevant. The solution for > Harry would not depend on Snape changing, but on Harry > changing his expectations of Snape. > > Non-human origin would then simply be an elegant way of > stating that Snape was born the way he is, and there isn't much > Harry can do about it. > > I think that this bears very deeply on JKR's thinking about bigotry > and prejudice. It is always easier to empathize with > people who are like us. If we do what is easy and prefer to > co-operate only with people who show empathy towards us, we > will always have a preference for people like ourselves and we > will always have a bigoted society. Neri: This is indeed a good message when looking at it from Harry's point of view, but when looking at it from Snape's point of view, the message would be: "I'm a SOB, but that's ok because I was born this way and there nothing I can do to change it. In fact these are my roots and I'm PROUD of them". And there's quite a danger that many readers will identify with this point of view. I think JKR does not endorse this kind of biological determinism. Hagrid, for example, is half-giant and he's indeed very big and not extremely bright, which he cannot help. But apart of his monster fixation he is the most un-giant character in the book and he has empathy in tons. And this is also despite of having a very difficult childhood (no mother, father who died at a young age, a dark secret to hide, other children laughing at his size and being expelled for something he didn't do). Lupin (whether ESE or not) also doesn't show any particular wolfish character qualities. Either he's a good person, or he's an extremely good actor. In both cases he doesn't seem to be bound by his non-human side. Neri From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sat Jul 24 18:00:36 2004 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 19:00:36 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The HBP is DEAD! Long live the HBP! References: <1090624735.9887.25482.m25@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000c01c471a8$2034eb80$704b6d51@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 107560 Louis wrote: > You would think that things like a conquerer's childhood would > warrant great material for the wizarding history books, but no; > wizards seem to like to sweep 'unpleasant' facets of history under > the rug... what do you think that whole thing with Umbridge and > Fudge was all about in the fifth book? They choose not to know, > not to delve too deeply or dwell on 'upsetting' things... even when > more than a decade passes. Only when the problem actually slaps > them in the face do they bother to acknowledge it, but only as much > as they absolutely MUST. That's a very interesting observation. Another interesting piece of evidence on this is the history curriculum. There seems to be an inordinate amount of time spent on discussing Giant wars and Goblin rebellions, but the bits of wizarding history we get to hear about are all about bureaucratic stuff: conventions and the like. If non-human history has been so stormy, how come we've not heard about anything that's rocked the WW on its human side? Is it for some reason accepted that _all_ sorts of disruptive events have to be hushed up and not talked about? Is the history of the WW actually a constant series of struggles against dissidence of all sorts, rebellions to rival those of the Goblins, Dark conspiracies, and the like? Have there actually been periods when the Dark side have been in control. But we don't talk about that, or teach it to the children... Just going even more wildly out on a limb, if there's truly a chaotic history to the WW, does that explain why despite their greater physical robustness, longer life span, and magical abilities, the world doesn't have a majority of wizarding folk rather than Muggles? Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From ameliagoldfeesh at yahoo.com Sat Jul 24 18:08:41 2004 From: ameliagoldfeesh at yahoo.com (A. Delavan) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 11:08:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Most burning Snape question? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040724180841.24466.qmail@web21111.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107561 > Laura: > > > I've already decided I'm asking her a question > on Snape as > not many people ask good Snape questions ... This > is what I've > got so > far: > > > > > > 1) Is Snape a pure blood? > > > 2) Why did he join/leave the Deatheaters? > > > 3) Has he ever been married/engaged? > > > 4) Will he ever get the DADA position? > > > 5) Why did he flinch in GOF when Lucius was > named as a > DE in the hospital wing?<< > A Goldfeesh says, If I had your opportunity I might ask "Are memories in the pensieve objective or subjective?" If JKR didn't do an "Erm, I can't say" we'd get (hopefully) an end to the argument of "it's all Snape's point of view- James and Sirius are not the bullies the pensieve scene shows them to be." In addition to ending the argument, we'd know if it were objective or not. *s* A. Goldfeesh (who is sure it is objective and can't see how two ganging up on one at the same time can be seen as anything but bullying) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From meriaugust at yahoo.com Sat Jul 24 18:20:05 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 18:20:05 -0000 Subject: Just thinking In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107562 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "theadimail" wrote: > Hi, > After reading the explanation Dumbledore gives about why he wanted > Harry at Petunia's house, I was struck by a point. I mean, he doesn't > have to live at Privet Drive compulsorily, right? He can live > wherever she lives. I mean, suppose the wizarding world has a new > minister who decides that leaving the Dursleys alone would be > inviting disatser and have them all moved to some safe place, the > protection will still work, right? > Bye > Adi Yes, I beleive that you are right. The important factor is that he stay with someone who shares his mother's blood, not the house itself. I believe that DD also says something along the lines of as long as Harry can call his aunt's house his home then he will be, to some extent protected. So even if, god forbid, Uncle Vernon were to be elected Prime Minister, 10 Downing Street would be enveloped in the protection, as well. Though there are certain implications that Petunia must stay alive for the protection to still work, just because I am not sure that it would also work with Dudley. Meri From melclaros at yahoo.com Sat Jul 24 18:24:33 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 18:24:33 -0000 Subject: Why Snape doesn't have to be human In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107563 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > Jim Ferer stated in a recent post that Snape is an example of > someone with social phobia. I agree with this, but I think the > social phobia stems from a basic lack of empathy. It would be > hard to function in a social situation if you couldn't pick up on > what other people were feeling. Snape reveals this in OOP: > > "Well then, you'll know [Harry']'s so arrogant that criticism simply > bounces off him" --OOP ch 24. If this is a sincere statement, > then Snape is unaware of the effect his criticisms have on Harry. Preface: Snape is NOT A VERY NICE PERSON. What follows is NOT an apology or excuse for anything he might have said or might say in future. However, > "Well then, you'll know [Harry']'s so arrogant that criticism simply bounces off him" --OOP ch 24. The way I read it is a purely sarcastic comment along the lines of many, many other sarcastic comments Snape has made. The lines about Harry's head not being allowed in Hogsmead for instance, and his entire conversation with Umbridge when she demanded veritiserum. Snape, from what we've seen has little or no problem getting along with his fellow staff. In fact, in PS/SS, Quirrel states that "he made himself unpopular" when demanding to referee the Quidditch match. It stands to reason that one has to have *some* 'popularity' in order to lose same. He's certainly popular when he makes his 1st appearance at 12 Grimmaud in OoP. You don't have to be nice, or even well-liked to be popular, look at Martha Stewart. > > If you think the mystery is *why* Snape has so little empathy for > Harry, and that the solution to Harry's Snape problems is for > Snape to become more empathetic, then making him > non-human is a cop-out, and I can see why people would find it > disappointing. Making Snape non-human would be a cop out for ANY reason. (Including the 'he's not really dead' at the end for those who don't want to deal with THAT distinct possibility.) He's so beautifully complex that throwing in, "oops, non-human!" would have thousands of readers hurling their books back at Ms. Rowling. > > Non-human origin would then simply be an elegant way of > stating that Snape was born the way he is, and there isn't much > Harry can do about it. And for the life of me I don't see why it's necessary to have an excuse. He's he way he is because that's how he is. Yes, there have been events that have shaped him and made him worse or better than he was the day he was born, and I personally would be interested in reading his full biography. But it has NOTHING to do with this story. The day we stepped into the story, Snape was Snape as we see him. Basically, Harry (along with the readership) just has to DEAL WITH IT. > > I think that this bears very deeply on JKR's thinking about bigotry > and prejudice. It is always easier to empathize with > people who are like us. Snape IS like us. Well, ok, I shouldn't speak for all of us but none of us are perfect are we? I don't think there's anyone here who doesn't posess a single trait that someone else wouldn't dearly love to change. Why the hell can't Severus Snape just be a flawed character--a delightfully nasty flawed character--and get on with it? JKRowling seems to have no problem with that approach so far. Melpomene From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat Jul 24 20:18:22 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 20:18:22 -0000 Subject: Quick question re: Lupin's resignation / Snape's potion In-Reply-To: <20040724132222.35293.qmail@web90005.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107564 > HunterGreen: snip Someone once commented that the whole 'sugar makes it > useless' fact was really a lie Snape told Lupin (so he'd at least get the pleasure of forcing Lupin to drink something that tastes really awful when it doesn't have to). I'm sure that's not true, but its a funny thought. > > > Tekay: snip > > "Professor Snape has very kindly concocted a potion for me," [Lupin] said. "I have never been much of a potion-brewer and this one is particularly complex....Pity sugar makes it useless." (PoS, 156-7, US hardback) > > Lupin seems to know how to make the potion and what the finished product should taste like. He's just not a potions master, so Snape, who is, prepared it for him. Potioncat: I've always thought this line is hints at ESE!Lupin. He "claims" not to be much of a potion brewer, but he knows sugar makes it useless. Although I'm not completely convinced about the ESE. From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 24 20:28:21 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 20:28:21 -0000 Subject: When Harry met Sally (was: Re: Incomplete Prophecy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107565 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > SSSusan previously: > > > > I have always wondered, though, believing as I do that he > > > HAS truly chosen for himself, what WOULD have happened if Harry > > > had exercised his choice by going AGAINST what DD planned/hoped? > > > ... That is, by saying, "NO WAY, OLD MAN! ..." > Kneasy: > > Funny you should mention that. > > > > I fully expect Harry to dig his heels in and try to opt out in > > book 6. He'll be just beginning to realise the implications of his > > little chat with DD at the end of OoP. He will not be happy at > > being voted (in absentia) as the Chief Pest Exterminator to the > > WW. > > > > ...edited... > > > > It won't be, needless to say. > > > SSSusan: > Hurray!! And THEN we'll agree that Harry has definitely HAD a real > choice to make, won't we? ;-) > > Personally--and most here know that I just adore Harry, so I'm not > saying this to be cruel or mean--I hope we do get to see some of > this internal wrestling over what he "has" to do. ... seriously > question "his" burden and wonder about opting out. I won't be sorry > if temptation rears its ugly head. I'm not sure whether I believe > Harry would give in to it or not. ... > > What say others? Will Harry opt out? ... > > Siriusly Snapey Susan Asian_lovr2: When you are discussing Harry's choices and his ability to choose, you all seem to focus on Dumbledore and the extent to which he is controlling Harry's choices, but I think that avoids the real character affecting Harry's choices. First, does Harry have a choice? Yes, he always has 'in the moment' choices. He had the abibility to say, Snape's gone after the Stone and there is nothing I can do about it, or Snape has gone after the Stone and regardless of how futile the effort might be, I have to try and stop him. But, in the long term, I think his life is guided by an inescapable destiny. However, the destiny is not controlled by Dumbledore, it's controlled by Voldemort. Harry can say, 'I quit' and move far away to Bangkok to live a quiet life. He can a make that choice. And, it's true his life might be quieter, but as long as Voldemort wants to kill Harry, Harry's life will always be under a shadow. He will always live looking over his shoulder waiting for Voldemort or the DE's to appear and attack him. So, it is not Dumbledore that is forcing the direction and fate of Harry's life, it's Voldemort. As far as Harry agonizing over his fate, I'm sure he will; I don't see how he can not. Certainly, he, a small boy, will wonder, how or by what method can I, a student, kill a powerful and experienced wizard like Voldemort? That has to be a scary thought. He will also wonder how, from a moral, pschological, and spiritual sense, he can bring himself to take another life. Sure, this can be easily resolved intellectually by saying it's selfdefense, or that you would be saving other lives, but from a spiritual sense, it's far more difficult. Just a few thoughts for now. Steve/asian_lovr2 From jferer at yahoo.com Sat Jul 24 21:08:37 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 21:08:37 -0000 Subject: Why Snape doesn't have to be human In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107566 Pippin: "But if you think the mystery, or rather the problem for Harry, is whether he can find a way to work with a person who has so little empathy, and treats him so poorly as a result, then the question of whether Snape was born with little empathy or lost it as a result of some trauma is less relevant. The solution for Harry would not depend on Snape changing, but on Harry changing his expectations of Snape." Well said, but what Harry has to do if he's going to work successfully with Snape is to find some other lever in Snape than empathy. Snape's reason and intelligence work fairly well, so Harry might try that. If I was Harry, I'd confront Snape: "I would not treat anyone the way my father treated you. I am not my father, Professor, and you are no longer a student. We must work together. It is time for both of us to put aside our opinion of each other and concentrate on the mission." Snape's lack of empathy is, in my opinion, secondary to his blinding rage. The contrast to Snape's lack of empathy would be Voldemort's primary, sociopathic lack of empathy. JKR didn't just show us Snape being mistreated by James, she showed us Snape the child cowering in a tense, unhappy, hostile home. That probably was a regular feature of Snape's childhood to be a strong memory. All that ? unhappy home, odd-man-out appearance and demeanor at school, persecution ? is a perfect recipe for the Snape Harry knows. Snape's clearly high intelligence just makes things worse for him, actually. Pippin: "Non-human origin would then simply be an elegant way of stating that Snape was born the way he is, and there isn't much Harry can do about it." I could see JKR making Snape partly non-human in order to make his personality more accessible, easier to understand, in a similar way to Lupin's lycanthropy standing for a cause for bigotry, but if she's doing that, she's defeating her purpose by making it so obscure. IOW, if Snape was openly and known to be a vampire, (or part one) that would be easier to follow. Pippin: "I think that this bears very deeply on JKR's thinking about bigotry and prejudice. It is always easier to empathize with people who are like us. If we do what is easy and prefer to co-operate only with people who show empathy towards us, we will always have a preference for people like ourselves and we will always have a bigoted society." It's also a lesson in the consequences for the whole world of bullying and persecution. That helped make Snape who he is. Bullying and persecution are first cousins to bigotry and prejudice. It's too much to ask James Potter to like Snape, but it's not too much to expect him to give Snape his dignity. Do you feel it's easier, especially for younger readers, to understand Snape if he is a vampire or part-vampire, a kind of being the wizard world ordinarily despises? Jim Ferer From pcsgames at toltbbs.com Sat Jul 24 21:27:58 2004 From: pcsgames at toltbbs.com (Phil Vlasak) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 17:27:58 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] DADA teacher in HBP (and possibly in book 7) In-Reply-To: <20040724142805.6890.qmail@webmail30.rediffmail.com> References: <20040724142805.6890.qmail@webmail30.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20040724172121.03351430@mail.toltbbs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107567 Amey wrote: >snipped pattern about the DADA teachers. >snipped >So expanding on this, we have a teacher in book 3 and 6, who is very good >in the DADA stuff ('If you mean Professor Lupin,' piped up Dean angrily, >'he was the best we ever -' OOtP) and teaches the students many things. >snipped Lupin is back, or Moody (the real one for a change). Dumbledore can teach the subject (in my opinion, that will be the best thing), but then his subject was Transfiguration, so can?t say, right??? >Ok, now I have thrown my theory on the list, waiting for any *me, too*s >and *no way*s > >Amey Now Phil suggests: For book six DADA teacher? Nymphadora Tonks She could teach Harry Concealment and Disguise Plus be the sexy young female teacher that all of the boys have crushes on. Smiles, Phil [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jferer at yahoo.com Sat Jul 24 21:27:35 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 21:27:35 -0000 Subject: Apparate into Hogwarts? (was Re: Attack on Hogwarts?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107568 Valky: "I dont believe Dobby actually apparated into or out of Hogwarts. I assume since the students learn apparition at school during their latter years that apparition within Hogwarts Grounds is permitted and possible." That's possible. The only objection I see is in "The Madness of Mr. Crouch," I would have expected someone to consider that Crouch or someone else might have Apparated to the other side of the grounds to evade detection, and I would have expected Dumbledore to Apparate when Harry told him where Crouch was. I don't think the Knight Bus ever did go to Hogwarts, did it? In any case, it would be nothing to appear right outside the Hogwarts gate and then drive onto the grounds the old-fashioned way. Even though Dobby vanishes in one place and appears in another, maybe that's not "Apparating." House-elves have their own brand of magic, and their magical transport might use an entirely different magical method than an Apparating wizard does. I've noticed house-elves' magic before ? powerful, and they don't need wands, either. Jim Ferer From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 24 22:00:48 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 22:00:48 -0000 Subject: Why Snape doesn't have to be human In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107569 Pippin: > > Non-human origin would then simply be an elegant way of > > stating that Snape was born the way he is, and there isn't much > > Harry can do about it. > Melpomene: > And for the life of me I don't see why it's necessary to have an > excuse. He's he way he is because that's how he is. Yes, there have > been events that have shaped him and made him worse or better than > he was the day he was born, and I personally would be interested in > reading his full biography. But it has NOTHING to do with this > story. The day we stepped into the story, Snape was Snape as we see > him. Basically, Harry (along with the readership) just has to DEAL > WITH IT. > Alla: Circumstances which shaped Snape have everything to do with this story. Rowling opens the door to the past more and more with every new book. She showed us some of his life as a child. If that had nothing to do witht he story, why would she do that? Why is it necessary to have an excuse for Snape? Because no matter how much I enjoy him as character, I am hoping that he will not stay as he is at the end of the books. (Yeah, yeah, I know - I am not a REAL Snape fan, I am a Snape basher, who is fascinated by him never theless). Harry has to deal with it? Well, he does as effectively as he can (which is not very), but to deal with Snape effectively, JKR should give him a deeper understanding of Snape (which she started) and a good reason of doing so besides the fact that they are on the same side. As I said many times, that fact alone does not make Snape a decent human being (or NON-human) in my eyes. Pippin: > > I think that this bears very deeply on JKR's thinking about > bigotry > > and prejudice. It is always easier to empathize with > > people who are like us. > Alla : Actually, Pippin, I agree. That is a good enough reason in my eyes for Snape to be a vampire. If he can't help his nastiness, I may even forgive him eventually. :o) Melpomene: > Snape IS like us. Well, ok, I shouldn't speak for all of us but none > of us are perfect are we? I don't think there's anyone here who > doesn't posess a single trait that someone else wouldn't dearly love > to change. Alla: Certainly, nobody is perfect, but as you said, we want to change. I so far saw nothing to indicate that Snape wants this change to occur. Melpomene: Why the hell can't Severus Snape just be a flawed > character--a delightfully nasty flawed character--and get on with > it? JKRowling seems to have no problem with that approach so far. > > Alla: He is a flawed character, but whether JKR intented for him to stay human or not, we will learn only at the end. By the way, after her answer, I don't really believe that he is a vampire, although I could never figure out why people are so strongly opposed to that theory. From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sat Jul 24 23:28:18 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 23:28:18 -0000 Subject: How should Harry deal with Snape? (was: Why Snape doesn't have to be human) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107570 > Melpomene wrote: > > The day we stepped into the story, Snape was Snape as we see > him. Basically, Harry (along with the readership) just has to DEAL > WITH IT. Neri now: OK, we are all here much wiser than Harry, and if we were in his place, we would have known EXACTLY how to deal with Snape. Right? We would have, er, we would have... erm... do what??? I surely don't know. Does anybody have an idea, how should Harry deal with Snape? I don't mean "should" from the moral point-of-view, I mean from the practical point of view. Assume Harry is ready to give up his pride and forgive Snape everything. Assume Harry recognizes that Snape won't change and it is pointless to expect him to. But what should Harry do, how should he behave, in order to get from Snape a reasonable treatment? What can Harry do that would actually work? Neri From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 24 23:28:38 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 23:28:38 -0000 Subject: Most burning Snape question? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107571 > Laura: > > > I've already decided I'm asking her a question on Snape as > not many people ask good Snape questions ... This is what I've > got so > far: > > > > > > 1) Is Snape a pure blood? > > > 2) Why did he join/leave the Deatheaters? > > > 3) Has he ever been married/engaged? > > > 4) Will he ever get the DADA position? > > > 5) Why did he flinch in GOF when Lucius was named as a > DE in the hospital wing?<< Alla: Congratulations! Please tell us everyhting and I mean everything after you come back. :o) I like your questions. I would also ask her whether Snape was the one who overheard the Prophecy and let Voldie know about it. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 24 23:34:11 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 23:34:11 -0000 Subject: How should Harry deal with Snape? (was: Why Snape doesn't have to be human) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107572 > > Melpomene wrote previously: > > > > The day we stepped into the story, Snape was Snape as we see > > him. Basically, Harry (along with the readership) just has to DEAL > > WITH IT. > > Neri now: snip. > But what should Harry do, how > should he behave, in order to get from Snape a reasonable treatment? > What can Harry do that would actually work? > Alla: That is one of the problems. I am convinced that no matter what Harry will do, Snape will not change his treatment of him. Why? Because I am convinced that there is nothing Harry can do. Snape's hatred of him is not caused by him breaking the rules, by his "celebrity status", by his,... I don't know. Snape cannot forgive that Harry is James potter's son. That is something that Harry cannot change , no matter how hard he tries. :) That is why the only solution to the problem, IMO, is Snape changing his attitude. It does not mean that Harry should not acknowledge Snape saving him life in year one, for example, but again I am convinced that it does not matter for Snape. He sees James in Harry, he enjoys tormenting him for that reason, even if Dumbledore assinged him the task of protecting Harry. From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Jul 25 00:05:01 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 00:05:01 -0000 Subject: Theory on James and Lilly Potters occupations In-Reply-To: <027a01c47180$3c51e890$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107573 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "charme" wrote: > From: "nihil8750o" > > > First I'll start with James. I believe that he was an Auror. I know this > is > > absolutely not unique, but there has been a lot of clues in the books > > especially "OotP". Such as Kingsley Shacklebolt's familiar refrence to > James > > when being first introduced to Harry. snip > > > Now if it is hard to swallow that Lilly was the DAtDA teacher here are > some > > points that show that possibly at least one of the Potters (Lilly or > James) held > > that Hogwarts position. > > > Charme: > > Hmmm. While that's possible, one would have thought JKR would mention this, > or someone would, as those that are Aurors are mentioned quite often by > multiple characters. I am quite intrigued at the thought of one of them > being the DatDA teachers; my bet isn't on Lily it's on James in this case. > That would make the Snape factor much more dynamic, as Snapey-poo would want > a position he could have shown he himself was much better at than James was. Potioncat: Welcome to the list, nihil! Well, I'd vote against auror. I could be wrong (thought it's never happened before) but I don't think there was time for auror training and becoming an auror for James to have been more than a novice. We're told in some interview that the Potters didn't have to work, but it was said in a way that implied what they did was significant. So, having one or both of them working at Hogwarts would make sense. Particularly given how fondly both McGonagall and Hagrid speak of James and Lily. (Not Potter and Evans.) Very easily, two teaching positions could have opened on 31 Oct. DADA and Potions. So, wouldn't it be interesting if Snape is frustrated at Harry because Lily was such a good potion maker, and Harry isn't? OK, now I'm taking a bit of a theory and going too far with it! Potioncat From jferer at yahoo.com Sun Jul 25 00:09:43 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 00:09:43 -0000 Subject: Why Snape doesn't have to be human In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107574 Alla: "By the way, after her answer, I don't really believe that he is a vampire, although I could never figure out why people are so strongly opposed to that theory." I can only answer for me. I have a more conservative approach to "theories" - they're really hypotheses - than some people do. When I come up with a speculation, I try to find reasons to knock it down, not build it up. A lot of people hang very large theories on very tiny snippets of text. We try to wring too much meaning out of too few words. IOW, I believe in being very tough on proving any kind of theory that makes a big difference in the story. There's other tools to interpret the canon. I don't think we spend enough time getting under the characters' skins. JKR is strongly character driven and if you know the characters you can make reasonable guesses how they'll act. We don't use our own life experience or knowledge enough, either. I read and post on a newsgroup, alt.support.shyness. There's a lot of people there full enough of dark, bitter rage it would take your breath away; and a lot of them sound like Snape. Since then, JKR has said there's something sad and lonely about Snape. Another way to use your knowledge is to ask, "If this was my problem, how would I solve it?" I once wondered what would happen if one of my daughters got a Hogwarts letter - how could they get me to believe it? If I was Headmaster, I'd send the Muggle parents of Hogwarts students over to the new family to help them get over the shock. {I wrote a fic about it.] Later, JKR said in an interview that people come to the Muggle parents' house and explain everything. It's also possible to look at other literature and test it against JKR. The Laws of Magic come to mind - does JKR follow them? Does she know about them? We don't know. We know that JKR uses folklore, the classics, and literature, so we can, too, and see if it fits. This is not meant to offend anyone, or to brag, either, but there's dozens and dozens and dozens of theories that have gone through the Theory Veil, never to be seen again, including one in particular that was promoted as blindingly obvious, with amused scorn for those who didn't "get it." OTOH, I believe it's perfectly okay to speculate on something and say upfront there's no proof. We can all start looking for proof or rebuttal. An example is the Umbridge-as-hag idea. Her outre appearance and pointed teeth are interesting. If we don't see her again, we'll just have to wonder. To get to the Snape-as-vampire theories, and again no offense meant, the adherents have relied on very small clues while explaining away in different ways very large objections, including something JKR said, which we are told isn't what it sounds like. JKR doesn't work that way. She plays fair in the literary sense. The clues that Lupin was a werewolf were much larger. I almost didn't post this, but we're all grownups, and we can debate how we go about exploring these great stories. NO ONE is singled out here, believe me. Let this be like Valhalla, where we fight all day and hoist a few at night. Jim Ferer From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sun Jul 25 00:22:39 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 00:22:39 -0000 Subject: Most burning Snape question? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107575 Laura writes: > > Has anyone got a list of Snape questions they really want > > answered? (Stupid question really) And did anyone else get > > lucky? If so what are you gonna ask? Cynthia writes: > This is as good a time as any time to write my first post. > I, too, believe Snape is the most challenging and compelling > character. The problem, of course, is that JKR is writing YA > fiction--and we're adults and are wont to impose adult > sensibilities on a world filtered, necessarily, by her genre > filter. > > That said, however, she has--whether she intended to or not-- > written a character who piques adult interest. So, were I to have > the opportunity to question her about Snape, I would ask: > > 2. Why is Snape, who by any measure is far and away as > intelligent and shrewd as any in the text, so unable--or unwilling- > -to control his childish behavior? SSSusan: Welcome, Cynthia! I *really* like your 2nd question. Some list members here think Snape *isn't* acting childishly--or at least that he's doing so because he's toughening up Harry or playing a part for the DEs--but no matter whether a person agrees with the characterization of "childish" [and I do, *part* of the time], it still makes a nice question for JKR. There's a lot of "meat" there for her to latch onto, and no matter how she would choose to answer it, I think we'd get something interesting in response. Since it's not a yes/no/maybe answer, she'd be more likely to provide at least a complete sentence by way of answer! As long as it wasn't the dreaded, "You'll find out later," I think it might provide us with some new fodder! Also, I'm guessing some HPfGU'ers will take exception with your saying JKR is writing "YA books." It's been discussed quite a bit on this board whether she ever intended children--or young adults-- as her audience. She's flat-out said before that "I didn't write with a target audience in mind. I never thought about writing for children -children's books chose me." That could be interpreted that she DIDN'T write these for children...or that she didn't set out to write for children but it ended up that way. It's a "discussable" topic at least, then. Siriusly Snapey Susan From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sun Jul 25 00:22:42 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 00:22:42 -0000 Subject: Attack on Hogwarts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107576 > wrote: > > So far, of all the named places of significance in the WW, there's only one we haven't been to - Azkaban. Now that the Dementors have gone Harry and his chums could visit without having an attack of the vapours. > > > Carolyn: > Worth remembering something she says on her website about the > earliest versions of Chapter 1 of PS/SS: '[I had] the Potters living on a remote island, Hermione's family living on the mainland, her father spotting something that resembles an explosion out at sea and sailing out in a storm to find their bodies in the ruins of their house.' > She says she subsequently re-located the Potters to Godric's Hollow, for plot reasons, but then goes on to say: > 'I have come close to using a chapter very like this in PS, POA, OOP, but here [ie Book 6] finally, it works...when you read it, just know that it's been about thirteen years in the brewing.' > It seems to me that the idea of an explosion on an island out at sea could very well become an explosion at Azkaban. > > Valky: Fascinating that you should note this, Carolyn. I have read both these portions of JKRs site and duh :D have never put two and two together. I must say I am impressed, at both, you for making the profound connection, and JKR for stuffing such a brilliant bit of possible canon right under our proverbial noses. Suffice to say I am pretty darn sure that you are at least on the right track here. Jo has as good as *told* us, directly, what's gonna happen in chapter 1 of HBP somewhere...... If anything I observed in my hapless sleuthing it is the distinct air of, "I have already told you what.", in the 'Edits' text on this Book 6 first chapter. This is why I love this list so.. without you guys I'd be blind and stumbling through the text with only my wild vivid imagination, and not a scrap of pure lucid observation. I am gonna *me too!* this one Carolyn. Now lets get to speculating in vivid detail what that means. P.S. > Carolyn has taken to printing out dated pages from the website, after the wand order episode... Absolutely! A *must* do! best to You from Valky From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sun Jul 25 00:31:09 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 00:31:09 -0000 Subject: Quick question re: Lupin's resignation . . . In-Reply-To: <1ec.25cdbb9a.2e3393aa@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107577 tookishgirl_111 at y... writes: > I've also been wary of Lupin's comment of "As long as I take it in > the week preceeding the full moon...". If this is true then why > didn't Snape give it to him earlier? > ============== > Sherrie here: > See, I've always read that as indicating that he had to take it > the WHOLE week before the full moon - as in nightly/daily doses, > NOT just once sometime during that week. But maybe that's just > me... SSSusan: This has been my question, Sherrie, as I've read this thread. Do we know, from anyplace else in canon, whether what's required is a FULL WEEK of taking potion or taking potion SOME TIME within the week leading up to the full moon? It could be read in this sentence as being either way. Anybody? Siriusly Snapey Susan From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sun Jul 25 00:36:15 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 00:36:15 -0000 Subject: RADIO TBAY: The News In-Reply-To: <85ADB66D-DD66-11D8-B52B-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107578 Kneasy wrote: > "It's just past the Witching Hour on the Wizarding Wireless > Network and that means it's time for the News. > > "In a statement made at the scene earlier today Cornelius Fudge > expressed dismay at the events." > > [Cue Fudge] > > "This has been a great shock to us all - why, I was here myself > only last night and it seemed secure enough then. We found notes > in the cells claiming that the prison issue sheets were in fact > Lethifolds and that the prisoners were being eaten alive. Further > investigation has revealed that the woodwork classes, recommended > as social therapy by Cissie Fluffbunny, a renowned expert in the > rehabilitation of offenders, was in fact used as a cover to make a > loom. Sheets and blankets were unravelled and re-woven into a > magic carpet on which the miscreants made their escape. This is > unconscionable; don't they realise that magic carpets are illegal? > The full weight of the Wizengamot will fall on these malefactors." > > [End Fudge] SSSusan: Oh, how apropos, given the recent discussion over is-he-or-isn't-he- ESE!Fudge?? ;-) But I was surprised to not see anything about water-skiing budgerigars [sp?] in the gnus! Siriusly Snapey Susan From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Sun Jul 25 00:38:40 2004 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 01:38:40 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Quick question re: Lupin's resignation . . . In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41030110.4040106@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107579 huntergreen_3 wrote: >>>I think his resignation may have occured even if snape hadn't let > > his "condition" slip. I get the feeling that no one was more ashamed > and horrified that he forgot his potion than Lupin himself. > Snape's 'outing" just made the fact that Lupin had to resign an > official decree. << > > I'm not sure about it. When Harry questions his resignation, his > first answer is not "Harry, I forgot to take my potion.", but rather > the reactions/concerns of parents after they find out about him. I do > agree that he feels rather horrible about what happened, but I don't > know if he would have quit if Snape hadn't 'outed' him. He might > have, but he might have not. > And that's when I really stopped liking him as a character, way before the revelations in OotP. To answer the original question, yes, I believe that without Snape, Lupin would have found a way to convince himself (and Dumbledore) that it will not happen again. Bla-bla-bla. Irene From melclaros at yahoo.com Sun Jul 25 00:42:11 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 00:42:11 -0000 Subject: Why Snape doesn't have to be human In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107580 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > Alla: > > Certainly, nobody is perfect, but as you said, we want to change. I > so far saw nothing to indicate that Snape wants this change to occur. You misread. What I said was that none of us don't have traits that SOMEONE ELSE would like to change or see change. I said nothing at all about effecting change in ourselves. For instance, I'm stubborn and argumentative. I have no intention of changing that no matter who would "like me better" if I did. > > Melpomene:> > > Snape IS like us. Well, ok, I shouldn't speak for all of us but > none > > of us are perfect are we? I don't think there's anyone here who > > doesn't posess a single trait that someone else wouldn't dearly > love > > to change. > Why the hell can't Severus Snape just be a flawed > > character--a delightfully nasty flawed character--and get on with > > it? JKRowling seems to have no problem with that approach so far. > > > > > Alla: > By the way, after her answer, I don't really believe that he is a > vampire, although I could never figure out why people are so strongly > opposed to that theory. Read through the archives. There are many arguments against the idea- - far more "against" arguments than "fors" and all of them supported by canon and far more substantial than the stand-bys, "he must take a potion" and "we haven't seen a vampire yet, so he must be one," which pro-vamps *always* end up coming back around to in the end. The arguments against run the gamut from folklore and literary examples, to plot development and exposition all the way to simple logic. Melpomene From melclaros at yahoo.com Sun Jul 25 01:04:31 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 01:04:31 -0000 Subject: How should Harry deal with Snape? (was: Why Snape doesn't have to be human) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107581 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > OK, we are all here much wiser than Harry, and if we were in his > place, we would have known EXACTLY how to deal with Snape. Right? We > would have, er, we would have... erm... do what??? > I surely don't know. > > Does anybody have an idea, how should Harry deal with Snape? I Mel: Well, let's see. By attending to his lessons and studying. By minding his own business. By following the rules once in a while and even occassionally listening to something told him by an adult. *Any* adult. Sure he can roam around muttering about how much he hates Snape and how unfair and blah blah blah just like every other kid in Hogwarts who's had to deal with this. He can indulge in his violent fantasies. He does *not* have to mouth off to him at every opportunity. Good lord, he knows what the man is like by now, doesn't he? He knows he's being watched for any mistake. He could at least *try* to learn something. Your claim that Snape's dislike of Harry is not due to his incessant rule breaking is no longer rings true. While it does seem true that there was a prejudice of some sort there from the start, we're 5 years on now and Snape has *plenty* of Harry Potter's *own* behavior to hold against him. It's far too much to ask for even a mumbled thanks and/or apology for everything Snape *has* done for him so far, but perhaps some sort of acknowledgement that something "went down" at the Quidditch match (to pick one of the fav examples) would be nice. It would also be a way to one-up Snape, if that's how he wanted to approach it. Knowing that he's expecting no thanks or apology and delivering something of the sort might give Harry a moral upper-hand of sorts. Well it might have if he'd done it less than 5 years later. The thing is, this "I hate Snape he's so unfair!" has become a one- trick pony. Harry's latest "I hate Snape he's to blame for everything!" tantrum at the end of OoP was a deal-breaker, really. It looked like he might show some growth after the pensieve debacle, but that was snatched away. There was very little to like about the young man in book 5, which I appreciated just because it was a fairly accurate depiction of a pouty teenager, but that little tirade finished him for me. He'd better have a personality transplant over the next summer or Snape won't be his only problem. .> But what should Harry do, how > should he behave, in order to get from Snape a reasonable treatment? > What can Harry do that would actually work? Mel Herein lies the problem. After 5 years, why is he still--why are readers still--expecting "reasonable treatment"? *That* is the question! Melpomene From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sun Jul 25 01:28:55 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 01:28:55 -0000 Subject: Theory on James and Lilly Potters occupations In-Reply-To: <027a01c47180$3c51e890$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107582 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "charme" wrote: > From: "nihil8750o" it would not make much sense for James and Lily Potter to face the dark lord multible times if James was a janitor or something not in the field of dark arts defence even though they were in the Order of > the Phoenix. > > > Charme: > I am quite intrigued at the thought of one of them being the DatDA teachers; my bet isn't on Lily it's on James in this case. That would make the Snape factor much more dynamic, as Snapey-poo would want a position he could have shown he himself was much better at than James was. Valky: "SOLD!, again Charme my hat is off." Imagine, *James* having once been a DADA teacher. ^^^Snape on this^^^ _growl_ 'What did *he* know about Dark Arts! *I* studied and lived it! (spitting) *Potter!* was nothing but a pretty- boy Quidditch Player!" Oh yes! I see it clearly.................... {when Snape went to work at Hogwarts *one* year before The GH incedent the DADA teacher position had become *newly vacant* due to James' need to go into hiding.) It makes toooo much obvious sense that Snape would have initially applied to the position as a *fitting* replacement for Potter, most certainly secure in his belief that *anyone* could see he was far more expert in the field than James could ever have been. Surely he would have thought it would be a *relief* to DD, that someone with some *real* DA expertise was *finally* going to instruct the students. Sooo cohesive with the Snape we know. Charme again: > As for Lily, I'm thinking the DoM - an Unspeakable. She would have had the ability to research and find the type of counter curse she used. > reply: I won't take much more to convince me of this one either, Charme. You are one surprisingly sharp poster IMO. Best to You Valky From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Sun Jul 25 01:32:02 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 01:32:02 -0000 Subject: Why Snape doesn't have to be human In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107583 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: > We try to wring too much meaning out of too few words. "K": I believe we are all guilty of that. I know I am. Jim: > We don't use our own life experience or knowledge enough, either. "K": I guess I'm just the opposite. I think more fantasy. I usually avoid threads of *I have greasy hair* and *when I was a student* and *as a teacher*... I'm not saying JKR doesn't use life experiences. I'm just saying I gloss over some of that stuff. Jim: >I read and post on a newsgroup, alt.support.shyness. There's a lot >of people there full enough of dark, bitter rage it would take your > breath away; and a lot of them sound like Snape. Since then, JKR >has said there's something sad and lonely about Snape. "K": Royal Albert Hall Appearance June 26 2003 ~~Where as most of the character, like Snape for example, are very hard to love but there's a sort of ambiguity I think is probably the best word you can't quite decide, there's something rather sad about Snape as well, something very lonely and you kind of, although he turns out to of course have such a wicked past and it's fascinating to watch how he you know, in the first book we thought he was the evil one and a aprt form Voldemort the most evil and in the second we thought that and slowly we just get this idea that maybe he's not so bad after all. JKR:Yeees. You shouldn't think he's too nice, let me just say that.~~ She said *yes* to which part of his statement? Hard to love? Sad? Very lonely? Maybe he's not so bad after all? Personally I'd rather have Snape be Half-Giant Squid or Half- Cockroach than to reach the end of the series and find out that all there was to Snape was some social phobic problems. For that matter I'd rather Snape have loved Lily and that's really saying something! ^-^ Jim: > To get to the Snape-as-vampire theories, and again no offense >meant, the adherents have relied on very small clues while >explaining away in different ways very large objections "K": I don't believe that to be true. There are more than small clues in the books. The problem is there are those who hate the idea of Snape being *anything* other than a normal wizard who love to drown in his misery so any or all other clues are dismissed. A good discussion on vampires isn't possible. I don't believe I've ever read one theory where someone wanted a vampire in the books and then tried to *make* Snape the one. Most people first found the clues and those clues then pointed to Snape. Now if Snape isn't a half-vampire then that's fine. I keep saying I don't live and die with that theory. However, I don't believe Snape is nothing more than a plain wizard. His appearance suggests otherwise. Jim: > JKR doesn't work that way. She plays fair in the literary sense. "K": Hmmmmmmmm. I don't think she plays fair in every way. Can you say Mark Evans? Same last name as a major character who is introduced as an 11 year old by an author who is a name freak? Jim: >The clues that Lupin was a werewolf were much larger. "K": But were they? Has anyone ever gone back and made a list of all the clues? I am not trying to make Snape something he isn't. I'm just saying there's something different about Snape and I'd like to know what that is. If the vampire references are red herrings than what is it JKR is trying to hide? And if Snape isn't the vampire then who is? Jim: > I almost didn't post this, but we're all grownups, and we can debate > how we go about exploring these great stories. NO ONE is singled out > here, believe me. Let this be like Valhalla, where we fight all day > and hoist a few at night. "K": Are you sure we are all grownups? lol Let me also say I have not singled out anyone. I do believe, though, if someone hates the idea of vampires in the books then they should just skip the vampire threads and let those of us who believe vampires will raise their white faces enjoy our discussions. :-D From melclaros at yahoo.com Sun Jul 25 01:46:35 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 01:46:35 -0000 Subject: Why Snape doesn't have to be human In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107584 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "koinonia02" wrote: I do believe, though, if someone hates the idea > of vampires in the books then they should just skip the vampire > threads and let those of us who believe vampires will raise their > white faces enjoy our discussions. That's *quite* a jump. >From whether or not someone believes (or wants to believe) Snape is or is not a vampire to people who hate the idea of encountering any vampire(s) at all. Unless the next new theory is that vampires are like phoenixes, in that there's only ever one at a time. If Snape's *that* vampire and we're to run into a vampire somewhere in the course of the series then he'll be it. Since there are those who despise the vampire! Snape "theory" and do not want to see it played out in the books, that *must* mean those same people don't want The V Word mentioned at all in their presence. More pretzel logic. From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Jul 25 02:10:17 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 02:10:17 -0000 Subject: Quick question re: Lupin's resignation . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107585 > SSSusan: > This has been my question, Sherrie, as I've read this thread. Do we > know, from anyplace else in canon, whether what's required is a FULL > WEEK of taking potion or taking potion SOME TIME within the week > leading up to the full moon? It could be read in this sentence as > being either way. > > Anybody? Potioncat: I tend to think that once anyone has read a line differently, we don't know what we thought we knew. But my understanding of the different quotes was that he had to take the medicine for a week. Just like we take most antibiotics for 10 days. I tried to cut and paste and I tried going upthread, to get the snipped quote. But I can't move it. I'm typing from memory. Snape says "You forgot to take your potion tonight so I brought a gobletful along." That makes me think he takes it every day for a week. Certainly, if he only had to take it once, neither he nor Snape would wait till the last minute. Although they certainly did this time! From snow15145 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 25 02:10:34 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 02:10:34 -0000 Subject: Theory on James and Lilly Potters occupations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107586 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "charme" > wrote: > > From: "nihil8750o" > it would not make much sense for James and Lily Potter to face the > dark lord multible times if James was a janitor or something not in > the field of dark arts defence even though they were in the Order of > > the Phoenix. > > > > > > > Charme: > > > I am quite intrigued at the thought of one of them being the DatDA > teachers; my bet isn't on Lily it's on James in this case. That > would make the Snape factor much more dynamic, as Snapey-poo would > want a position he could have shown he himself was much better at > than James was. > > > > Valky: > "SOLD!, again Charme my hat is off." > > Imagine, *James* having once been a DADA teacher. > > ^^^Snape on this^^^ _growl_ 'What did *he* know about Dark Arts! *I* > studied and lived it! (spitting) *Potter!* was nothing but a pretty- > boy Quidditch Player!" > > Oh yes! I see it clearly.................... {when Snape went to > work at Hogwarts *one* year before The GH incedent the DADA teacher > position had become *newly vacant* due to James' need to go into > hiding.) > > It makes toooo much obvious sense that Snape would have initially > applied to the position as a *fitting* replacement for Potter, most > certainly secure in his belief that *anyone* could see he was far > more expert in the field than James could ever have been. > Surely he would have thought it would be a *relief* to DD, that > someone with some *real* DA expertise was *finally* going to > instruct the students. > > Sooo cohesive with the Snape we know. Snow: I really like this theory! Some possible canon fuel to ignite the fire: OOP chap. Career advice- pg.670 US " And Snape was just this little oddball who was up to his eyes in the Dark Arts and James- whatever else he may have appeared to you, Harry- always hated the Dark Arts." I personally don't recall an instance throughout the series that would have implied to Harry that James liked the dark arts so why this statement? If James had been a dark arts teacher he was possibly teaching the "defense" of the dark arts. Maybe that's whom Lupin learned his wonderful teaching skills from. From jferer at yahoo.com Sun Jul 25 02:10:42 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 02:10:42 -0000 Subject: Why Snape doesn't have to be human In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107587 K: "> Personally I'd rather have Snape be Half-Giant Squid or Half- > Cockroach than to reach the end of the series and find out that all > there was to Snape was some social phobic problems. For that matter > I'd rather Snape have loved Lily and that's really saying something! > ^-^ Snape being a social - outcast if you will, if you don't like social phobic - having hopelessly loved Lily are completely compatible ideas. It's the frustration of the hopelessness that embitters them. And that's not all there is to Snape. He's one of the truly fascinating characters. K:"> I am not trying to make Snape something he isn't. I'm just saying > there's something different about Snape and I'd like to know what > that is. If the vampire references are red herrings than what is it > JKR is trying to hide? And if Snape isn't the vampire then who is?" I don't know. Have we established that anyone has to be a vampire? K:"> Are you sure we are all grownups? lol Let me also say I have not > singled out anyone. I do believe, though, if someone hates the idea > of vampires in the books then they should just skip the vampire > threads and let those of us who believe vampires will raise their > white faces enjoy our discussions. :-D" I don't hate the ideas of vampires anywhere but in my room. (!) Your idea that 'vampires will raise their white faces' is a different one than "Snape is a vampire." If JKR introduces vampires, we'll know because she will tell us something about them beforehand through the usual channels (read, "Hermione.") From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Jul 25 02:21:40 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 02:21:40 -0000 Subject: Why Snape doesn't have to be human In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107588 > > Alla: > > > By the way, after her answer, I don't really believe that he is a > > vampire, although I could never figure out why people are so > strongly > > opposed to that theory. > Melpomene wrote: > Read through the archives. There are many arguments against the idea- > - far more "against" arguments than "fors" and all of them supported > by canon and far more substantial than the stand-bys, "he must take > a potion" and "we haven't seen a vampire yet, so he must be one," > which pro-vamps *always* end up coming back around to in the end. > The arguments against run the gamut from folklore and literary > examples, to plot development and exposition all the way to simple > logic. > Potioncat: I will defend, to the last key on my keyboard, the right of the pro- Vampires to say their say. And if I were one (pro-vampire) I would not think what JKR said proved anything. Snape probably isn't a vampire, but there is a heck of a lot of vampire-like descriptions surrounding him. So it's leading to something. Besides, we need something to argue/discuss. Potioncat (who is certain that Mark Evans is not a vampire.) From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Jul 25 02:27:14 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 02:27:14 -0000 Subject: How should Harry deal with Snape? (was: Why Snape doesn't have to be human) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107589 > Mel: snip > Well, let's see. By attending to his lessons and studying. By > minding his own business. By following the rules once in a while and > even occassionally listening to something told him by an adult. > *Any* adult. snip Potioncat: But if that fit Harry's personality, he wouldn't be in Gryffindor, would he? Most likely Hufflepuff. Harry is Harry, and other than normal maturing, I don't want his personality to change any more than I want Snape's personality to change. Potioncat From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sun Jul 25 02:28:35 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 02:28:35 -0000 Subject: How should Harry deal with Snape? (was: Why Snape doesn't have to be human) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107590 Neri: > > But what should Harry do, how > > should he behave, in order to get from Snape a reasonable > > treatment? What can Harry do that would actually work? Alla: > That is one of the problems. I am convinced that no matter what > Harry will do, Snape will not change his treatment of him. Why? > Because I am convinced that there is nothing Harry can do. > > Snape's hatred of him is not caused by him breaking the rules, by > his "celebrity status", by his,... I don't know. > > Snape cannot forgive that Harry is James potter's son. That is > something that Harry cannot change , no matter how hard he > tries. :) > > That is why the only solution to the problem, IMO, is Snape > changing his attitude. SSSusan: I like this question of Neri's, and I think it just might serve Harry well if he were to consider it very seriously. I can understand your reaction, Alla, but I don't know that I agree with you. We've seen very little indication that Snape is interested in changing. So if a change is going to occur between the two, I think it just might have to come from an effort of Harry's. What could it hurt for Harry to TRY this tack? Not a thing. The bigger question, I think, is: Is it *possible* for a 16-year-old, filled with anger and frustration, convinced this man truly loathes him, to set all that aside and say, "NO. I will not feed the cycle by being a berk to him. I will not give him reason any more to fail me, to sneer at me, to belittle me. I will show him that I understand we MUST work together." Is that possible? I don't know. But I do have an inkling that if Harry were truly able to *state* that he wants to call a ceasefire, if he were truly able to convince Snape he was willing to listen to him & work hard & learn from him, it just *might* get through to Snape. Or am I crazy to even think this? :-) Can you *imagine* the look on Snape's face if Harry were to state something like this, and then swallow his pride and do whatever Snape instructed him to do? I can envision Snape's eyes narrowing, his finger running alongside his mouth, while he considers whether this makes any difference whatsoever. Oh--and I think it goes w/o saying--that I don't think Snape & Harry would ever truly like each other nor that Snape's sarcasm would ever disappear re: Harry. Siriusly Snapey Susan From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Sun Jul 25 02:42:13 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 02:42:13 -0000 Subject: Why Snape doesn't have to be human In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107591 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros" wrote: > Snape "theory" and do not want to see it played out in the books, > that *must* mean those same people don't want The V Word mentioned > at all in their presence. > More pretzel logic. "K": I believe you made it more of a jump and a pretzel than it was made out to be. The discussion of vampires, Voldemort, or any other subject matter should be made with canon. Not just statements of how dumb that theory is. It adds nothing to the debate. Nor is it polite to call *any* theory dumb or stupid or ... From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sun Jul 25 02:58:40 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 02:58:40 -0000 Subject: When Harry met Sally (was: Re: Incomplete Prophecy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107592 SSSusan previously: >>>> I have always wondered, though, believing as I do that he HAS truly chosen for himself, what WOULD have happened if Harry had exercised his choice by going AGAINST what DD planned/hoped? ... That is, by saying, "NO WAY, OLD MAN! ..."<<<< Kneasy: >>> Funny you should mention that. I fully expect Harry to dig his heels in and try to opt out in book 6. He'll be just beginning to realise the implications of his little chat with DD at the end of OoP. He will not be happy at being voted (in absentia) as the Chief Pest Exterminator to the WW. ...edited... It won't be, needless to say.<<< SSSusan: >> Hurray!! And THEN we'll agree that Harry has definitely HAD a real choice to make, won't we? ;-) Personally--and most here know that I just adore Harry, so I'm not saying this to be cruel or mean--I hope we do get to see some of this internal wrestling over what he "has" to do. ... seriously question "his" burden and wonder about opting out. I won't be sorry if temptation rears its ugly head. I'm not sure whether I believe Harry would give in to it or not. ... What say others? Will Harry opt out? ...<< Asian_lovr2 [Steve]: > When you are discussing Harry's choices and his ability to choose, > you all seem to focus on Dumbledore and the extent to which he is > controlling Harry's choices, but I think that avoids the real > character affecting Harry's choices. SSSusan again: Hi, Steve. I think the reason it seems like it here is because I had been reacting to Kneasy's post, trying to be sure I understood whether he'd done an about-face on the issue of choice. *Kneasy* has argued long & hard about [correct me if I screw this up, Kneasy] DD's being a puppetmaster, the one controlling everything, and the one limiting Harry's choices. I have never agreed that it goes that far, though I think he does have an overall plan--or hope--for how things will work out, based at least in part upon the fact that he simply knows more than others. There was a BIG gap between that first statement of mine, above, and the "NO WAY, OLD MAN!" and I'm not sure my meaning has stayed intact. Though you're right in the sense that in the back of my mind, I *do* think of Harry making his big post-prophecy-revelation choice in terms of how DD will react to it. Steve: > First, does Harry have a choice? Yes, he always has 'in the moment' > choices. He had the abibility to say, Snape's gone after the Stone > and there is nothing I can do about it, or Snape has gone after > the Stone and regardless of how futile the effort might be, I have > to try and stop him. SSSusan again: Absolutely. This is what I was referring to way up top in the bit you first snipped. I think Harry HAS had choice, and it hasn't always had to do w/ DD. [It's funny. I've argued recently that DD may have set up the PS/SS protections as a test for Harry. But I've never had that feeling about the CoS. I wonder if that's inconsistent on my part....] ANYWAY, I see Harry's actions in CoS as definitely choice. Why couldn't it have been RON alone who went off to save his sister? Ron went, but Harry led the way. In PoA Harry made the choice to let Wormtail go and to believe Sirius. In GoF Harry made the choice to accept Cedric's wish and to take his body back. On & on we could go. Some choices big, some quite small, but I think Harry has always had the choice whether to take risk, whether to do what he thinks serves the greater good, or to opt out. So I agree with you there. Steve: > But, in the long term, I think his life is guided by an inescapable > destiny. However, the destiny is not controlled by Dumbledore, it's > controlled by Voldemort. > > Harry can say, 'I quit' and move far away to Bangkok to live a > quiet life. He can a make that choice. And, it's true his life > might be quieter, but as long as Voldemort wants to kill Harry, > Harry's life will always be under a shadow. He will always live > looking over his shoulder waiting for Voldemort or the DE's to > appear and attack him. > > So, it is not Dumbledore that is forcing the direction and fate of > Harry's life, it's Voldemort. SSSusan: An interesting take on this as his choice being forced or made in reference to VOLDY, not to DD. I hadn't considered it quite that way.... But I guess I'd still say that it isn't *quite* inescapable destiny. As you say, he COULD choose to quit and run. It wouldn't be much of a life, and it doesn't seem to me to be in keeping w/ Harry's nature, but it's presumably a choice he COULD make? Siriusly Snapey Susan From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sun Jul 25 03:10:20 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 03:10:20 -0000 Subject: Something wrong with this Fudge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107593 Jim: >>> Is Fudge evil? I think so. I just don't think he's a DE or a mole, or that major a player any more. JKR is character-driven. Know her characters and you can predict a lot of what they'll do.<<< SSSusan: >> But that's just it--I'm afraid we *can't* always know her characters. The ones we know best--Harry, Ron, Hermione, Hagrid, etc.--I suppose have become fairly predictable to us. But it's that *not*-knowing, in fact, our inability to fully know because of what JKR has chosen to leave out, that makes it impossible to fully predict the actions of people like Snape, Ludo Bagman, Lucius Malfoy,.... And I'd add Fudge. The speculation is part of trying to figure out whether we *can* know him better than we'd thought.<< dcgmck: > Having lots of fun reading the various streams pouring out of this > topic, but I have to beg to differ with this last assertion that > either Bagman or Malfoy is unpredictable. We hear two different > takes on Bagman before we ever see him in GoF and Malfoy > is...well, a man of "bad faith" from the get-go, with no sign of > changing. Even LV notes this at the end of GoF when the DEs are > recalled and called to an accounting. SSSusan: Do you think so? Hmmm. Well, I think we certainly expect Lucius to behave in certain ways now. We expect him to be nasty, superior, cruel, and to support Voldy, now that he's back. I guess with him, though, there are enough questions about his past--particularly the time between Voldy1 & Voldy2--that I'm not sure I can predict his behavior. For instance, why did he give Ginny the diary? Was it to help Voldy return? Was it to get Arthur in trouble? Was it to kill some mudbloods? Was it to get DD kicked out of Hogwarts? We don't really know. I *don't* think it was to help Voldy return, because then I think Voldy would've pointed to Lucius in the graveyard and said to the other DEs who'd never tried to help him, "Look at what Malfoy tried to do for me!" Personally, I think Lucius wasn't thinking of Voldy at all but was trying to get DD out of Hogwarts & get himself more power. Anyway, I guess I don't find him fully predictable because we don't necessarily know his motivations. Bagman's the same for me. We know he has a gambling problem. :-) We know he was a Quidditch star. What can we predict about him? Do we know what he's likely up to right now? John Granger predicted Bagman would be the Big Baddie in Book Five...and it made some sense to me when I read it. But he wasn't. I guess, too, I'm comparing people like Fudge, Malfoy & Bagman to people like H/R/H and saying they're less predictable because I think we know so much less about their motivations. Heck, with Ron & Hermione, we can almost finish their sentences sometimes now, can't we? We can almost guess what they're going to suggest about situation X, Y or Z. Not sure I could do that w/ Fudge, Lucius or Bagman is all I'm saying. Siriusly Snapey Susan From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Sun Jul 25 03:13:01 2004 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 03:13:01 -0000 Subject: How should Harry deal with Snape? (was: Why Snape doesn't have to be human) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107594 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros" wrote: > > Does anybody have an idea, how should Harry deal with Snape? I > > Mel: > Well, let's see. By attending to his lessons and studying. By > minding his own business. By following the rules once in a while and > even occassionally listening to something told him by an adult. > *Any* adult. Aside from the fact that that would make the story completely boring :-), it would do him no good. There is a student who does everything described above, and gets bullied and ridiculed by Snape just as much as Harry. I am referring of course to Neville Longbottom. Face it, Snape hates Harry and nothing Harry does would make a difference. > Good lord, he knows what the man is like by now, > doesn't he? He knows he's being watched for any mistake. He could at > least *try* to learn something. What makes you think he doesn't? He does all his homework, makes a clear effort during lessons. He tends to get distracted, which leads to his poor results, although they get marked down a lot more than similar quality potions from other students. > Your claim that Snape's dislike of Harry is not due to his incessant > rule breaking is no longer rings true. The conflict between them started and has continued on by Snape. He is not only an adult but has the status and power of a teacher. Snape has made no effort to improve their relationship (except perhaps during the first occlumency lesson). Why should a teenager do the same? > It's far too much to ask for even a mumbled thanks and/or apology > for everything Snape *has* done for him so far, but perhaps some > sort of acknowledgement that something "went down" at the Quidditch > match (to pick one of the fav examples) would be nice. That is true, but does not justify a biased and unfair treatment of a student by a teacher in this way. It would certainly be a cause for dismissal of said teacher by our muggle high schools... > The thing is, this "I hate Snape he's so unfair!" has become a one- > trick pony. Harry's latest "I hate Snape he's to blame for > everything!" tantrum at the end of OoP was a deal-breaker, really. > It looked like he might show some growth after the pensieve debacle, > but that was snatched away. I would not judge what a kid says in the midst of mourning for the adult they cared for most in the world and who was the man who cared most for him; a kid, moreover, who feels personally responsible for the death, and is dealing with other burdens besides. > There was very little to like about the > young man in book 5, which I appreciated just because it was a > fairly accurate depiction of a pouty teenager, but that little > tirade finished him for me. He'd better have a personality > transplant over the next summer or Snape won't be his only problem. I really liked Harry in book 5. He finally managed to express his feelings, shout, cry (at the end), etc. He managed to overcome the united hostility of the world towards him and his own internal demons to act in an honorable and selfless manner (for some example, see his actions when Umbridge discovers the DA, and of course when he goes to "save" Sirius). Salit From EyeMelodius at hotmail.com Sun Jul 25 03:15:36 2004 From: EyeMelodius at hotmail.com (annunathradien) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 03:15:36 -0000 Subject: Ginny and the entrancing Veil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107595 > dcgmck: > > Hypothesis: Ginny's possession by the young Tom Riddle might well > have tainted her psyche if not her conscious memory with Riddle's > witnessing of Moaning Myrtle's death. Do you think he actually > witnessed MM's death or just instigated it by setting the basilisk > loose? Again, lacking canonical evidence one way or the other... > Cory: > > I don't know whether young TR saw MM's death or not, but for purposes > of your argument, I would argue that it does not matter. > > The person who possessed Ginny (if "person" is the right word), was > not just the 16-year-old Riddle. It was the memory of Riddle's 16- > year-old self, but it was also a person that knew Riddle / > Voldemort's future, including the killing of Harry's parents and his > demise by Harry. This might be going off on a totally baseless tangent, but when Harry *saw* Arthur's attack in OOTP, it was written as if Harry *were* the snake. As if he were in it's mind. If I'm not mistaken, this was explained because Voldemort had been possessing the snake at the time, which is why Harry saw himself as the snake (his connection to Voldemort = seeing things through the snake's eyes just like V). If Riddle/Voldemort controlled the Basilisk in a similar way through Ginny, BookSpirit!Riddle wouldn't have only been able to see everything the Basilisk saw, but Ginny would have seen it too. In theory. Ginny claims to not remember anything of the times she was possessed, but perhaps she carries those memories subconsciously. This could be why the Dementors seem to effect her slightly more considerably than the average person (POA train car scene. Ginny was "shaking like mad", per Ron's words, if I'm not mistaken). Worst case scenario... Spirit!Riddle left some of himself in her. Like a disturbing gestating egg, waiting to hatch. It might be an intriguing storyline, but there's no evidence of it to date. Unless one wants to crazy-speculate about alterior motives in Ginny's adamance Voldemort wasn't possessing Harry in OOTP. Harry always remembered what happened to him after his *connections* with Voldemort, including the one clearly attempted possession at the end of OOTP, so his situation isn't similar to Ginny's.... or is it? Was this just illustrating Harry's difference from an run-of-the-mill person possessed like Ginny (who didn't have a pre-existant connection to Voldemort)? Or was it to remind us Ginny's possession and this supposed difference to Harry's? Is it *really* different? Could Ginny be lying about the nature of her Riddle possession? Why? Could Riddle still be effecting her? Not unlike the Diary, a small piece of Riddle still living in a subject, in this case, a living subject (aforementioned spec: 'A disturbing gestating egg')? It's insane, but I suppose I'm still keeping it amongst the possibilities, allbeit the group of more implausible ones. > Cory again: > > Perhaps, although this assumes that being entranced by the veil and > seeing the thestrals are triggered by *exactly* the same thing, which > is not necessarily true. We know that seeing the thestrals is > triggered by *seeing* death. It is possible that entrancement by the > veil results from something else relating to death, other than > physically seeing it. I agree. It is made clear Riddle was at least capable of murder even at that young age, but he (through Ginny) never actually killed anyone during COS even if the intent was there. I'm also not so convinced BookSpirit!Riddle implanted memories in Ginny or she somehow *saw* the Basilisk's/Riddle's old memories or whatnot. I would believe, however, through the possession, Ginny *feeling* what Riddle felt. That bloodlust, the capacity to murder but not the actual witnessing of murder, hence no memory of death. Which could explain why Ginny can't see Thestrals but is entranced by the Death Veil. It's possible the Veil attracts those who have witnessed death, but also those who have (acutely?) felt the desire to cause death? Which could be why Harry, of all of them, was particularly attracted to the Veil. Harry not only saw death in a big way in GOF, but Harry has also wanted to kill. He *wanted* to kill Sirius in POA believing he betrayed his parents. We see this desire to kill again when he chased down Bellatrix. Of course, Ginny being entranced by the Veil could simply be explained because she was so close to death herself in COS. From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sun Jul 25 03:33:22 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 03:33:22 -0000 Subject: How should Harry deal with Snape? (was: Why Snape doesn't have to be human) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107596 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > Neri: > > > But what should Harry do, how > > > should he behave, in order to get from Snape a reasonable > > > treatment? What can Harry do that would actually work? > > > Alla: > > That is one of the problems. I am convinced that no matter what > > Harry will do, Snape will not change his treatment of him. > > > > > SSSusan: > Is it *possible* for a 16-year-old, filled with anger and frustration, convinced this man truly loathes him, to set all that aside and say, "NO. I will not feed the cycle by being a berk to him. I will not give him reason any more to fail me, to sneer at me, to belittle me. I will show him that I understand we MUST work together." Is that possible? I don't know. But I do have an inkling that if Harry were truly able to *state* that he wants to call a ceasefire, if he were truly able to convince Snape he was willing to listen to him & work hard & learn from him, it just *might* get through to Snape. > > Or am I crazy to even think this? :-) > SSSusan Valky: No! _I_ certainly don't think you are crazy! A practical commonsense solution to a complex issue, sounds a bit DD- ish and I am pretty sure Snape would _at least_ scratch his chin and wonder if that could make a difference for him, as you suggested. As for Harry being able to do it... Yes, I think he could. It may take some doing after losing Sirius', but I do think that Harry is one you could call beyond _getting stuck on a step of the grieving process_ for very long. Once he's moved on, he may well see Snapes loathing as an unecessary diversion rather than a grievance, and the natural successor to that condition is that Harry would approach Snape with much the same as Susan has suggested. The only real obstacle left to that is that Harry must be able to, at this point, regard himself as somewhat an equal to Snape, as it is by nature a nuance that they are equals. ......and supposing so, could Snape accept such a nuance. How would Snape percieve Harry implying equivalency of their kinds, as an insult: he is Harrys teacher and therefore superior; or as a compliment: Harry is James' son and this recognition would be above and beyond what James' afforded Snape, himself. From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Jul 25 03:34:52 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 03:34:52 -0000 Subject: How should Harry deal with Snape? (was: Why Snape doesn't have to be human) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107597 Melclaros wrote: > The thing is, this "I hate Snape he's so unfair!" has become a one- > trick pony. Harry's latest "I hate Snape he's to blame for > everything!" tantrum at the end of OoP was a deal-breaker, really. > It looked like he might show some growth after the pensieve debacle, > but that was snatched away. There was very little to like about the > young man in book 5, which I appreciated just because it was a > fairly accurate depiction of a pouty teenager, but that little > tirade finished him for me. He'd better have a personality > transplant over the next summer or Snape won't be his only problem. > > Potioncat: I'm sorry if I've responded twice to the same post. Most people do not understand why Harry does this "I hate Snape" bit at the end of OoP. I have to say this: I think it was great writing on JKR's part. Harry is in grief and he's blaming someone for Sirius' death. It's incredibly believable. That's what people do. Snape is the perfect scapegoat (bezoar?) because Harry doesn't like him and Snape was involved in the incident. At some point, he should get over it. Of course, with all the bad history between him and Snape, he just might not. And that might cause some problems in the next two books when Harry may need Snape or Snape may need Harry. Potioncat From melclaros at yahoo.com Sun Jul 25 03:37:34 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 03:37:34 -0000 Subject: How should Harry deal with Snape? (was: Why Snape doesn't have to be human) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107598 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > > Mel: > > even occassionally listening to something told him by an adult. > > *Any* adult. > snip > > Potioncat: > But if that fit Harry's personality, he wouldn't be in Gryffindor, > would he? Most likely Hufflepuff. Harry is Harry, and other than > normal maturing, I don't want his personality to change any more > than I want Snape's personality to change. Of course not. There wouldn't be much to read, would there? The fact that these characters are so g*d*mned annoying is what makes this whole thing fascinating. Mel From swaine.t at xtra.co.nz Sun Jul 25 03:44:24 2004 From: swaine.t at xtra.co.nz (Tanya Swaine) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 15:44:24 +1200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Theory on James and Lilly Potters occupations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040725153533.030a1080@pop3.xtra.co.nz> No: HPFGUIDX 107599 At 14:10 25/07/2004, you wrote: >Snow: > >I really like this theory! > >Some possible canon fuel to ignite the fire: > >OOP chap. Career advice- pg.670 US " And Snape was just this little >oddball who was up to his eyes in the Dark Arts and James- whatever >else he may have appeared to you, Harry- always hated the Dark Arts." > >I personally don't recall an instance throughout the series that >would have implied to Harry that James liked the dark arts so why >this statement? > >If James had been a dark arts teacher he was possibly teaching >the "defense" of the dark arts. Maybe that's whom Lupin learned his >wonderful teaching skills from. >Snow Tanya now I really like this idea too, it would of added extra fuel for Snape, that's for sure. However, I have a query. Hagrid says in PS/SS that Hogwarts was one of the only safe places back then. If Lily and James were teaching, in October with the fidelus charm being set when they lived at Godrics Hollow. Wouldn't it have made more sense for them to be living within Hogwarts if teaching at that time? Tanya [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From melclaros at yahoo.com Sun Jul 25 04:03:12 2004 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 04:03:12 -0000 Subject: Why Snape doesn't have to be human In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107600 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "koinonia02" wrote: > > The discussion of vampires, Voldemort, or any other subject matter > should be made with canon. Not just statements of how dumb that > theory is. It adds nothing to the debate. Nor is it polite to call > *any* theory dumb or stupid or ... If you are looking for canon arguments that support the claim that Snape is NOT a vampire, there are dozens and I have already suggested a search of the archives. Every one of them is backed up by canon. It is impolite is for one poster to tell a group of others which posts they should or should not be reading. Mel From EyeMelodius at hotmail.com Sun Jul 25 04:03:51 2004 From: EyeMelodius at hotmail.com (annunathradien) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 04:03:51 -0000 Subject: Resolving "In Essence Divided" With The Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107601 dcgmck: > > > Clearly, Voldemort cannot live as a whole being while Harry > > survives, stubbornly holding onto Voldie's other half. Harry, as > > well, cannot survive as a whole being as long as half of Voldemort > > takes up half of Harry's mind. Entropy: > With this in mind, I've been practically tripping over references to > things being split or paired. Here are a few on my mind: > > 1. Fred and George: They are not just twins. They seem to be wholly > of the same mind; finishing each others' thoughts and such. They can > truly be described as one mind in two bodies. > > 2. Don't know how I neglected to mention it the first time around, > but the green-smoke snake which issues from Dumbledore's instrument as > he murmurs "But in essence divided?" It splits into two snakes in > answer to his question. > > 3. When Voldie possesses Harry in the MOM: "...they were fused > together, bound by pain...." > > 4. And where is it that Harry feels as if his head will split open, > split in two, or some such thing? I know I've seen it... annunthradien: Isn't there also a reference in COS where Harry sees Tom Riddle's name for the first time and he recognizes it? As if it were a distant memory? It's also possible socks could work into this speculation as well. Dobby mismatches all of Harry's socks, obviously one normally wears them in matching pairs. Harry's mismatched socks represent the mismatched duelling souls (psyches or whatever) constantly battling it out in his head? I also recall Harry receiving that easter egg from Mrs. Weasley in OOTP. Harry's reaction was particularly emotional and he didn't seem to understand why. Harry remembering his own red-headed mother, Lily, via the Weasley red-hair (Molly and Ginny)... struck a chord in Voldemort/Tom of a nostalgia of a mother he never knew? The Voldemort/Tom in Harry able to experience a mother's love through Harry's affection for Lily and the Weasleys? Unless there was a rare occassion of someone (a mother figure?) who actually showed kindness to Tom at Easter and he never forgot it? I lean towards a mother or mother figure not only for the red-headed Lily/Weasley connection but an egg is also very symbolic of fertility and/or motherhood. Harry also says numerous times throughout OOTP that he didn't understand why he was feeling the way he was. Being jealous of Ron getting the prefect badge for example. We know that in school Tom Riddle had been particularly gifted and ambitious. He'd been Head Boy, it wouldn't surprise me he was prefect too (I believe Dumbledore says this somewhere in the text). Maybe it wouldn't have mattered to Harry had he not gotten that badge, but I could have certainly imagined Tom being very resentful if someone else got the badge over him while he was in school. annunathradien From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Sun Jul 25 04:08:05 2004 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 04:08:05 -0000 Subject: FILK: Where Are You, Voldemort? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107602 Songs with the word Baltimore in the title are admirably suited to be filked in connection with the Dark Lord. Problem is that there aren't too many songs fitting that description. This was the first: http://home.att.net/~coriolan/secrets.htm#These_Traits_With_Voldemort And here's the second: Where Are You, Voldemort? (OOP, Chap. 1) To the tune of Good Morning, Baltimore from Marc Shaiman's musical (via John Waters) Hairspray THE SCENE: Little Whinging. HARRY, hiding in Dursley bushes, complains of the apparent news blackout with respect to Lord Voldemort. HARRY Oh, oh, oh Here on TV Will they tell of He-Who-Can't-Be-Named? Oh, oh, oh Angry at all those Who would Death-Eat But stuck on this street I listen for clues On the Evening News With striking of baggage and Chopper crash. Oh, oh, oh Rolling on out Of the bushes in Which I've been stashed.... Where are you, Voldemort? Why do you wage a phony war? It is all such a mystery - Why you aren't making misery? Where are you, Voldemort? Once again no owl from Dumbledore But soon they'll all know it's fact Voldemort's came back Oh, oh, oh My Uncle Vern Has lately discerned my hiding place Oh, oh, oh, He had his beefy hands `round my throat To loudly emote Their son known as Dud Hangs out with his buds He tells his folks, "I'm with mates drinking tea" So, oh, oh Don't make me laugh Since their son's such a hard-core J.D. Where are you, Voldemort? Where's the evil we all abhor? Where's the rat who his friends betrayed? Where's the DEs poised to invade? Where are you, Voldemort? I will swear by Godric Gryffindor The world's gotta wake up to learn Voldemort's returned I've letters from Herm I've letters from Ron All written as if I'm some moron And even the missives from Sirius Black All seem to assume that I do not know jack! (Enter DUDLEY and his gang) DUDLEY & GANG He doesn't know jack! HARRY So, oh, oh Give me a break 'Cause I simply can't take it outside the loop Oh, oh, oh Something inside of me makes me curse At letters too terse At Dudders I yell While my scar burns like hell Just like a driller inside my head Oh, oh, oh I'll pay V back For his cold-blooded murder of Ced DUDLEY & GANG Where are you, where are you .. Cold-blooded murder of Ced HARRY (& DUDLEY & GANG) Where are you, Voldemort? Saw you at the end of Year Four Where is your virtuosity In inflicting atrocity? And I promise Voldemort There's a day when I'll mop up the floor We'll see through what you've contrived What you've contrived Voldemort's alive.. DUDLEY & GANG The Boy Who Lived will not survive HARRY Voldemort's alive.. DUDLEY & GANG The Boy Who Lived will not survive HARRY Voldemort's alive! - CMC (who spent the best 11 years of his life in Charm City) HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Sun Jul 25 05:12:45 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 05:12:45 -0000 Subject: Why Snape doesn't have to be human In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107603 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros" wrote: > If you are looking for canon arguments that support the claim that > Snape is NOT a vampire, there are dozens and I have already > suggested a search of the archives. Every one of them is backed up > by canon. "K": I don't need to search the archives. I am aware of those claims. Yet one can search the archives and find theories for Snape being a vampire/half-vampire and those theories are also backed up by canon. Mel: > > It is impolite is for one poster to tell a group of others which > posts they should or should not be reading. "K": And it's better to reply to a thread by calling it IDIOTIC? It's best to leave it alone. Read it but don't insult the posters. It doesn't matter if it's a thread about H/R or Mark Evans or Dumbledore or Dudley. People want to discuss their theories. That's all. ^-^ From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Sun Jul 25 05:24:54 2004 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 05:24:54 -0000 Subject: Why Snape doesn't have to be human In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107604 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: > Snape being a social - outcast if you will, if you don't like social > phobic - having hopelessly loved Lily are completely compatible ideas. > It's the frustration of the hopelessness that embitters them. And > that's not all there is to Snape. He's one of the truly fascinating > characters. "K": Oh but Jim, I don't like the Snape/Lily pairing at all. :-p It's possible that Snape did love Lily but I haven't seen enough proof for that yet. It is also possible that Snape will be a character who never learned to loved. Who could just never fit in. I guess I would just prefer to see something a bit more exciting for him. And yes, Snape is truly fascinating. Jim: > I don't know. Have we established that anyone has to be a vampire? "K": No. You are right. I just think JKR has made a point of already giving us a small glimpse of vampires and she is using all different kinds of creatures to tell her story. It's really as simple as that. Now personally I'm not much on hags but they might come into the story also. Jim: >If JKR introduces vampires, we'll know > because she will tell us something about them beforehand through the > usual channels (read, "Hermione.") "K": Probably. She was rather interested in reading about vampires in CoS. From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sat Jul 24 13:25:47 2004 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 06:25:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Most burning Snape question? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040724132547.16545.qmail@web50103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107605 --- laura wrote: > Hey there, this is a bit OT but I had the most *amazing* letter > this morning containing tickets to meet JKR at the Edinburgh book > festival on Aug. 15!!!!! > Has anyone got a list of > Snape questions they really want answered? (Stupid question really) Major congratulations Laura! Hope you have a great time. I really don't think she'll answer any of those questions; too much potential for spoilage. But how about this one: "Ms Rowling, what two or three facts can you tell us about Severus Snape that will NOT risk spoiling the plots of future books?" She'll probably say SOMETHING and hopefully she'll give you something good. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sat Jul 24 13:50:31 2004 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 06:50:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Balance of Power in the Wizarding World In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040724135031.6387.qmail@web50110.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107606 --- samnanya wrote: > Sirius was by all accounts a very powerful wizard for the > Order, second only to Dumbledore. Sorry, maybe I missed it but what's the evidence for this statement? There's nothing in the series that would indicate that Sirius is more or less powerful than his contemporaries. "Magda" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From TScheffler at rtlworld.de Sat Jul 24 15:01:28 2004 From: TScheffler at rtlworld.de (Thorsten Scheffler) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 15:01:28 -0000 Subject: Ginny and the entrancing Veil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107607 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rowansjet" wrote: > In the scene where we are introduced to the Veil in the Department > of Mysteries (pg. 682, OotP UK edition), there are several points > where the author notes that some people are 'mesmerised' by the > veil, and can hear whispering voices. Hermione and Ron are > unaffected and seem particularly worried about it, while Harry and > Luna can both hear voices and are atracted too it. It is interesting to notice, that the four persons who seemed to hear voices from the veil where those who sat together on their journey to Hogwarts (Harry, Neville, Luna and Ginny). And all of them came in contact with the stinksap of the Mimbulus mimbletonia. I always found it interesting, that it were Neville, Ginny and Luna who came with the trio to the MoM, all three of them more or less drenched in stinksap at the above mentioned occasion. I thought there must be a connection between those two events, but I never noticed before, that they were all affected by the veil, while Ron and Hermione, who didn't come in contact with the stinksap weren't. Does that mean stinksap enables you to hear the dead? Thorsten (another first-time poster) From brenda-chaisson at rogers.com Sat Jul 24 15:19:50 2004 From: brenda-chaisson at rogers.com (Brenda Chaisson) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 11:19:50 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Defending Percy ( was Percy Weasley ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000501c47191$aa211d30$6500a8c0@MAIN> No: HPFGUIDX 107608 Willy: Anyway, has anybody considered that Percy may be Dumbledor's spy inside the ministry? And that Percy broke with his family as cover? Too obvious? Just my one gnuts worth. Luckdragon64 writes: This is always a possibility; but I'm sure Dumbledore must know many older and wiser wizards who could spy inside the ministry without causing the pain and anguish the Weasley's must be going through due to Percy's defection. Brenda From brenda-chaisson at rogers.com Sat Jul 24 15:25:46 2004 From: brenda-chaisson at rogers.com (Brenda Chaisson) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 11:25:46 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Most burning Snape question? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000a01c47192$7e6a5c00$6500a8c0@MAIN> No: HPFGUIDX 107609 Laura writes: Has anyone got a list of > Snape questions they really want answered? (Stupid question really) > And did anyone else get lucky? If so what are you gonna ask? Luckdragon64 writes: How about: Where are Snape's parents? Where was he raised before coming to Hogwarts? Who else was in the gang he belonged to when he was at Hogwarts? Will he be faithful to Dumbledore? Does he truly hate Harry? What does he eat? Or Why doesn't he eat at the Ootp headquarters with the others? Brenda From HPGroup at colinogilvie.co.uk Sat Jul 24 16:46:04 2004 From: HPGroup at colinogilvie.co.uk (Colin O) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 17:46:04 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] DADA teacher in HBP (and possibly in book 7) In-Reply-To: <20040724142805.6890.qmail@webmail30.rediffmail.com> References: <20040724142805.6890.qmail@webmail30.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: <4102924C.7050909@colinogilvie.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 107610 Amey Chinchorkar wrote: >Dumbledore can teach the subject (in my opinion, that will be the best thing), but then his subject was Transfiguration, so cant say, right??? > My computing teacher at High School originally trained as a Maths Teacher. The other computing teacher, trained as an Art Teacher. So just because Dumbledore taught Transfiguration, I don't see why he later can't teach Defence against the Dark Arts. -- Regards, Colin From desastreuse at yahoo.com Sat Jul 24 19:13:01 2004 From: desastreuse at yahoo.com (desastreuse) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 19:13:01 -0000 Subject: Why Snape doesn't have to be human In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107611 Melpomene writes: > Why the hell can't Severus Snape just be a flawed > character--a delightfully nasty flawed character--and get on with > it? JKRowling seems to have no problem with that approach so far. I couldn't agree more. Your pragmatic analysis of a particularly prickly character is commendable. There's a desire among readers-- indeed, in people--to dissect and recast characters (and others) so that they conform to our own worldview. There's something in us that doesn't want Snape to be who he appears to be even though most would agree there is room for him to simply be a problematic character. And because Snape is complex and challenging, Rowling should be allowed the space to write him that way without apology. Some readers on other forums seem unwilling to let her do that. Candidly, I, too, find myself indulging in a little wishful Snapian rehabilitation from time to time (Rickman factor, I believe) because it's human nature to want people we like to have something in their lives that makes them joyful. As an aside, though, as a genre point, her treatment of Snape is instructive for youth who tend--as many adults do--to demand that "good guys" conform to certain standards of demeanor and behavior while "bad guys" conform to another. Consequently, if JKR leaves Snape's considerable shortcomings unresolved to a lesser or greater degree, I, for one, will be impressed with her courage. The demand for justification of Snape's behavior among her readership is extraordinary. Cynthia From davidagabbard at yahoo.com Sat Jul 24 20:29:35 2004 From: davidagabbard at yahoo.com (David Gabbard) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:29:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Riddle AND Voldemort in the Chamber (was RE: [HPforGrownups] Half Blood Prince Theory) In-Reply-To: <000001c47191$28df0e80$6500a8c0@MAIN> Message-ID: <20040724202935.36915.qmail@web90009.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107612 Brenda wrote: "There is a passage in COS where Dobby tells Harry he was giving him a clue about Tom Riddle, not Voldemort, because he had not changed his name yet at that point. This clearly defines that in JKR's world Tom and Voldemort are not considered one and the same. COS was about Harry and Tom Riddle. I think HBP will be about Harry learning more about why Tom Riddle became Voldemort." Now David Comments and then Asks: I've heard the "Dobby thinks they're different so JKR must think they're different" statement as evidence to the theory that JKR considers T. Riddle and Lord Voldemort to be separate - and I can understand why. What I don't understand is: Chamber of Secrets, American Edition, P318 - After Riddle has called forth the Basilisk: "Then he heard *Riddle's* hissing voice: Kill him. The basilisk was moving toward Harry; he could hear its heavy body slithering heavily across the dusty floor. Eyes still tightly shut, Harry began to run blindly sideways, his hands outstretched, feeling his way -- *Voldemort* was laughing--" (Emphases mine) If Riddle and Voldemort are not one and the same, then when did Voldemort appear for Harry to be able to hear his laughter? or Why does JKR call the spirit from the diary by both names? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maritajan at yahoo.com Sat Jul 24 21:09:49 2004 From: maritajan at yahoo.com (Marita Bush) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 21:09:49 -0000 Subject: Apparate into Hogwarts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107613 I've read all the posts about apparating into and out of Hogwarts, and I know that everytime it's mentioned in one of the books, someone says "You can't do that!" But.... OotP, page 622..... "Fawkes circled the office and swooped low over him [DD]. Dumbledore released Harry, raised his hand, and grasped the phoenix's long golden tail. There was a flash of fire and the pair of them had gone." If that doesn't mean he apparated out of there, what does it mean? MJ From maritajan at yahoo.com Sat Jul 24 22:03:18 2004 From: maritajan at yahoo.com (Marita Bush) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 22:03:18 -0000 Subject: Trelawney (was: Re: Voldemort and the Prophesy --OOP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107614 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rebeccatrishel" > > Rebecca Trishel now: > >{snip} I guess the "spy" at Hogshead might recognize her. > Otherwise, Trelawney is pretty safe, especially given her reputation > as a failed fortune-teller. I just read over this passage in the book. I believe (and I don't know if this will end up being important to the last two books or not) but I believe there's a strong possibility it was Mundungus who overheard part of the original prophecy. We know he was banned from the Hogshead twenty years prior but still sneaks in there (he was the one who overheard the planning meeting for DA. As DD is relating the entire prophecy to Harry, he tells him the eavesdropper was discovered and thrown out half-way through the prophecy. Mundungus hangs out with some fairly unsavory folks, I think he could have related what he overheard to the wrong person. We also know that DD got Mundungus out of a tight spot and earned Mundy's loyalty at that time. Could the tight spot be related to getting him off a 'cooperating with DE's" charge? Am I fishing with too long of a line here? MJ From ladymyneh at yahoo.com Sat Jul 24 23:16:00 2004 From: ladymyneh at yahoo.com (LadyMyneh) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 23:16:00 -0000 Subject: Half Blood Prince Theory In-Reply-To: <000001c47191$28df0e80$6500a8c0@MAIN> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107615 > Luckdragon64 writes: > > Until JKR reveals who the halfblood prince is my bets are on Tom > Riddle! > > There is a passage in COS where Dobby tells Harry he was giving him a > clue about Tom Riddle, not Voldemort, because he had not changed his name > yet at that point. This clearly defines that in JKR's world Tom and > Voldemort are not considered one and the same. COS was about Harry and Tom > Riddle. I think HBP will be about Harry learning more about why Tom Riddle > became Voldemort. That's my second guess. I definitely think that what Dobby said in CoS has some significance for books six and seven, but I think it might have more to do with the final battle between Harry and Voldemort (possibly a way for Harry to survive the series, though my hopes of that aren't terribly high). However, I still think its Hagrid simply because we've no evidence of there being any specifically royal line in the Wizarding world (although there's certainly a psuedo-nobility). While you could also argue that there's no evidence for a royal line among the giants either, we've had five books that focus on the wizarding world, but only brief mentions of the giant world. And there's also the fact that the Grawp storyline needs to be resolved, indicating a focus on the giants in HBP. LadyMyneh From ladymyneh at yahoo.com Sat Jul 24 23:29:00 2004 From: ladymyneh at yahoo.com (LadyMyneh) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 23:29:00 -0000 Subject: Apparate into Hogwarts? (was Re: Attack on Hogwarts?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107616 Jim Ferer: > That's possible. The only objection I see is in "The Madness of Mr. > Crouch," I would have expected someone to consider that Crouch or > someone else might have Apparated to the other side of the grounds to > evade detection, and I would have expected Dumbledore to Apparate when > Harry told him where Crouch was. And also in PoA, if you could apparate within Hogwarts grounds, Sirius would never have been left on his own. Just a thought brining together two threads of this discussion- if House Elves can Apparate (or something similar) into Hogwarts, is it possible that they could be used, not for defense, as has been suggested elsewhere, but in the cases when they're owned by evil families, actually forced to attack and sabotage the grounds? That would certainly give Hermione's cause some support, since free house elves might not be able to be forced to do such a thing. LadyMyneh. From ladymyneh at yahoo.com Sat Jul 24 23:48:18 2004 From: ladymyneh at yahoo.com (LadyMyneh) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 23:48:18 -0000 Subject: Quick question re: Lupin's resignation / Snape's potion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107617 > Potioncat: > I've always thought this line is hints at ESE!Lupin. He "claims" not > to be much of a potion brewer, but he knows sugar makes it useless. Not necessarily. I know that a wet bowstring is useless, but I don't know how to make, string or draw a bow. Potion making, as we learn in PS, is a fine and subtle art. Simply knowing which ingredients are needed/ not needed doesn't mean you are an expert at making the potion. LadyMyneh From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Jul 25 06:39:49 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 06:39:49 -0000 Subject: Who is berk (Diaries) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107618 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Annette Hamel" wrote: Annette: > Perhaps our British list members can shed more light on this, but I have a > British friend who refers to her day-planner as a "diary", and when (for > instance) we are told that there will be a meeting at 3:00 on Monday, she > will say "I must put that down in my diary", or, "I must check my diary for > appointments." I think the term "diary" may also be used in this fashion, > not just to mean "journal." > > Note that when Harry finds the diary, he thinks it's odd that it doesn't > have any *appointments* written in it, like "dentist appointment Wednesday". > Also, it appears that the pages of Tom Riddle's diary are dated, whereas a > journal-type diary often isn't. I'm assuming Tom's diary was of the > day-planner variety. Geoff: Having just reurned from 10 days holiday in Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly, I find myself with 1400 messages to trawl through. This one caught my eye and didn't seem to have had a reply so I will use it as a launch pad.... In the UK, "diary", as you suggest, is used to describe a daily record of one's doings (as in the case of Samuel Pepy's diary) and also to indicate events and appointments. The word "journal" to the majority of UK folk would probably indicate a magazine of some sort (viz the Wall Street Journal). Referring to Tom Riddle's diary as an example, if you were to go into one of the big UK stationers - W.H.Smith for example - and ask for a diary, you would be directed to a shelf of pre-dated books, often formatted as a day per page or a week to a double page. I think the practice of writing a "journal" is not practiced much and hasn't been for many years. I doubt whether Tom Riddle kept much in his diary.... From jenniferstmatt at yahoo.com Sat Jul 24 23:49:39 2004 From: jenniferstmatt at yahoo.com (jenniferstmatt) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 23:49:39 -0000 Subject: Most burning Snape question? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107619 > Laura writes: > > Has anyone got a list of Snape questions they really want answered? Cynthia: > 4. Does Snape love anyone? Jenn writes: Cynthia, you make a great point, and those are great questions. IMO, Snape is the most challenging and compelling character JKR has in this series - his character development is far more complex than in any other character in the series. If I could ask JKR a question, I would ask if she intended to make Snape so complex and intriguing. He seems to have more potential for growth and interest as the series progresses. And if JKR would answer your question "Does Snape love anyone", it would give a lot of insight into his character. Jenn From drliss at comcast.net Sun Jul 25 02:28:19 2004 From: drliss at comcast.net (Lissa Hess) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 22:28:19 -0400 Subject: Quick Question re: Lupin's resignation In-Reply-To: <1090706505.12191.81484.m6@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20040724222557.01739a78@mail.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 107620 At 10:01 PM 7/24/2004 +0000, you wrote: >Potioncat: >I've always thought this line is hints at ESE!Lupin. He "claims" not >to be much of a potion brewer, but he knows sugar makes it useless. >Although I'm not completely convinced about the ESE. Lissa: Aw, come on! :) How about "I'm not much of a cook. But I know you don't put beans into brownies." Same basic principle. I kind of identify with Snape professionally because I'm a chemist. And let me tell you, there's a lot of chemists out there that know how a reaction SHOULD go, but can't get it to go for the life of them, because they don't have the patience for all the fiddly perfect details. Plus, I can't make my birth control pills, but I know that antibiotics make them useless! I REALLY have to stop comparing Wolfsbane potion to birth control pills. Liss From dontask2much at yahoo.com Sun Jul 25 03:12:56 2004 From: dontask2much at yahoo.com (charme) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 23:12:56 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Theory on James and Lilly Potters occupations References: Message-ID: <044201c471f5$48d03f70$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> No: HPFGUIDX 107621 ----- Original Message ----- From: "snow15145" > Valky: > "SOLD!, again Charme my hat is off." > > Imagine, *James* having once been a DADA teacher. > > ^^^Snape on this^^^ _growl_ 'What did *he* know about Dark Arts! *I* > studied and lived it! (spitting) *Potter!* was nothing but a pretty- > boy Quidditch Player!" > charme: Valky, see what happens when I get obsessed? :) Every now and then, a rare flash of brilliance....but kudos to nihil for what I consider an excellent first post that made me think about it :) >>Snow: >>I really like this theory! >>Some possible canon fuel to ignite the fire: >>OOP chap. Career advice- pg.670 US ". And Snape was just this little >>oddball who was up to his eyes in the Dark Arts and James- whatever >>else he may have appeared to you, Harry- always hated the Dark Arts." >>I personally don't recall an instance throughout the series that >>would have implied to Harry that James liked the dark arts so why this statement? >>If James had been a dark arts teacher he was possibly teaching >>the "defense" of the dark arts. Maybe that's whom Lupin learned his >>wonderful teaching skills from. charme: There's other subtelties in canon which came to mind when I typed my response to nihil (see above, references to that rare flash of brilliance thing.) The one instance I visualized when I read nihil's post was how well Harry led the DA in OoP. Once at one point, he found himself planning lessons in his head and actually rather a little excited about the whole idea. (It leads up to the similarities between James and Harry: Seeker can't be the only thing) Snape lets fly in a GoF tirade that James was so arrogant that he couldn't listen to Snape when he told James about not trusting Sirius/Lupin....I think it was GoF, but can't remember whether it was Lupin or Siruis Snape referred to, so I'll have to find it and post. Regardless, I wondered when Snape would have had the opportunity to warn James that way; I mean these guys didn't really like each other and wouldn't be seeing each other in the pub swapping magic stories, ya know? (That plays into another theory about Snapey-poo I have which in unrelated to this particular thread) If SNape was really spying for the original Order and DD, then if James was the DADA professor....might be more contact there. Your canon, Snow, also adds some more meat to the whole thing, now doesn't it? About Lily and Potions....how long has Snape been the Potions Master at Hogwarts? In OoP, I think he says 13 or 14 years to Umbridge's question, doesn't he? You might on to something, Snow, however I thought Lily was exceptionally gifted at charms.... From dontask2much at yahoo.com Sun Jul 25 04:05:46 2004 From: dontask2much at yahoo.com (charme) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 00:05:46 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Theory on James and Lilly Potters occupations References: <6.0.3.0.2.20040725153533.030a1080@pop3.xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <047d01c471fc$aa7e7cd0$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> No: HPFGUIDX 107622 Tanya: However, I have a query. Hagrid says in PS/SS that Hogwarts was one of the only safe places back then. If Lily and James were teaching, in October with the fidelus charm being set when they lived at Godrics Hollow. Wouldn't it have made more sense for them to be living within Hogwarts if teaching at that time? Charme: Maybe so, however if James or Lily was anything like Lupin, he wouldn't want to draw Hogwarts students into a precarious position, regardless of how safe it was supposed to be. Notice though, that I haven't seen anything in canon where anyone's spouse lives with them at Hogwarts....interesting point you have though. From jsbatchler at aol.com Sun Jul 25 06:11:44 2004 From: jsbatchler at aol.com (mavenjsb) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 06:11:44 -0000 Subject: Theory on James and Lilly Potters occupations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107623 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snow15145" wrote: > --- > > OOP chap. Career advice- pg.670 US " And Snape was just this little > oddball who was up to his eyes in the Dark Arts and James- whatever > else he may have appeared to you, Harry- always hated the Dark Arts." > > I personally don't recall an instance throughout the series that > would have implied to Harry that James liked the dark arts so why > this statement? > > If James had been a dark arts teacher he was possibly teaching > the "defense" of the dark arts. Maybe that's whom Lupin learned his > wonderful teaching skills from. Hi all, Jan here, my first post, and my apologies if I'm repeating something already in the archives... While there are problems w/ James being DADA teacher at the time of his and Lily's death (i.e., why were they at GH, not Hogwarts?), I really like this idea -- and perhaps James was a teacher, say, the year before their deaths (perhaps left Hogwarts because of the baby? Would *you* want to raise a baby there? Would it be allowed?) One of the reasons I like this idea: It ties nicely with Harry being, as it were, "born" to the job of teaching his clandestine DADA. Harry's a great DADA teacher because (in part) he inherited his father's gifts. Just a thought. --Jan From snapesangel2002 at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 25 00:06:42 2004 From: snapesangel2002 at yahoo.co.uk (laura) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 00:06:42 -0000 Subject: Snape questions for JK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107624 Thanks everyone who posted for your advice on what to ask JKR, I really needed it! Well, I've made a *huge* list of Snape-related questions I'd love to know the answers to (filled both sides of 2 A4 pages), spent hours trawling through previous posts here, and of course, the books themselves. I've put all the questions into categories of 'most yearning to know' and 'most likely to be answered', crossed them off one by one, and <> I'm down to the last four. They're not worded perfectly but I'm allowing for the fact that I'll probably get tongue-tied anyway, and I want to get straight to the point. So here goes, in no real order: 1) Can you give us any indication as to how Snape finds out what Voldemort is saying to his Deatheaters? 2) Why DOES Snape call Voldemort 'the Dark Lord'? 3) Can you tell us anything about Snape's family, for example, if they're 'pure-bloods' or if he's related to any of the characters we've met so far? And the killer question..... 4) Is there any truth in the rumours that Snape loved Lily? Questions 1 & 2 I decided on after reading 'Seen and Unforeseen' in OOTP. I remember jumping for joy when Harry asked Snape question 2, then being very ddisappointed when Trelawney distracted Snape from answering - if only I knew what he was about to say! And I've been dying to know the answer to no.1 since GOF. However, 3 & 4 are my favourites, and are the ones I'm most likely to ask her. I can see JK giving hints to either of these that would start a whole new wave of theories (if we're lucky). I really want her to settle the Snape/Lily speculation, or at least add fuel to it anyway! I'm thinking of rephrasing it to include Lupin after David Heyman's speculation that Lupin loved Lily 'in many ways' - JK's spoken about this with him I'm sure. So there you have it, none of these questions are final so suggestions would be very welcome. I just hope to god I don't get tongue-tied at the crucial moment! Laura* From juli17 at aol.com Sun Jul 25 07:06:20 2004 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 03:06:20 EDT Subject: Doesn't Voldemort know about Snape's loyalty? Message-ID: <2b.5ce3a5e4.2e34b5ec@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107625 Charme said: > > Oh, I don't know...what complicates this is Quirrell's statement about the > "counter curse" Snape was "muttering" in answer to Harry's realization that > Quirrell was hexing his broom during the Quidditch match. I don't think > Voldemort is naive enough to think that if Snape was still loyal to him, > he'd be trying to save Harry Potter that day - Snape could have turned a > blind eye or not muttered the correct counter spell. > Julie says: This is the main reason I have a hard time believing the "Snape as a double agent" theory. Besides having ample opportunity to kill Harry himself, Snape could have looked the other way several times too, while someone else did the dirty work. If Voldemort's main objective is to kill Harry, and Snape is a double agent, then *why* hasn't Snape taken care of Harry already? What reason would Snape have to keep playing the spy game, not to mention helping to keep Harry alive to grow stronger and more skilled at Wizardry? Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From juli17 at aol.com Sun Jul 25 07:07:10 2004 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 03:07:10 EDT Subject: Most burning Snape question? Message-ID: <66.43515acd.2e34b61e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107626 Cynthia wrote: > 4. Does Snape love anyone? > > > Cynthia I like this one! JKR scoffed at the idea of anyone loving Snape, but what about Snape loving someone? Love is the most powerful reason of all for doing something (like switching from the Dark side to the Light side), more powerful even than hate. Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From juli17 at aol.com Sun Jul 25 07:16:32 2004 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 03:16:32 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 4985 Message-ID: <46.54074254.2e34b850@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107627 SSSusan wrote: > > I like this question of Neri's, and I think it just might serve > Harry well if he were to consider it very seriously. I can > understand your reaction, Alla, but I don't know that I agree with > you. We've seen very little indication that Snape is interested in > changing. So if a change is going to occur between the two, I think > it just might have to come from an effort of Harry's. > > What could it hurt for Harry to TRY this tack? Not a thing. The > bigger question, I think, is: Is it *possible* for a 16-year-old, > filled with anger and frustration, convinced this man truly loathes > him, to set all that aside and say, "NO. I will not feed the cycle > by being a berk to him. I will not give him reason any more to fail > me, to sneer at me, to belittle me. I will show him that I > understand we MUST work together." > > Is that possible? I don't know. But I do have an inkling that if > Harry were truly able to *state* that he wants to call a ceasefire, > if he were truly able to convince Snape he was willing to listen to > him &work hard &learn from him, it just *might* get through to > Snape. > > Or am I crazy to even think this? :-) Julie says: I don't think you're crazy. When it comes to Snape and Harry, I think we all assume Harry is the better person, don't we? Snape is mean and embittered, while Harry isn't (yet). If something is going to change between them, I think it will be at Harry's instigation. But first, Harry needs to grow up a bit more and recognize that fact. Hopefully, he will do so in the next two books, and prove himself what we already know him to be, the better man. So, take that, Snape ;-) Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 25 07:24:39 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 07:24:39 -0000 Subject: Riddle AND Voldemort in the Chamber (was RE: [HPforGrownups] Half Blood Prin In-Reply-To: <20040724202935.36915.qmail@web90009.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107628 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, David Gabbard wrote: > > Brenda wrote: > > "There is a passage in COS where Dobby tells Harry he was giving > him a clue about Tom Riddle, not Voldemort, because he had not > changed his name yet at that point. This clearly defines that in > JKR's world Tom and Voldemort are not considered one and the same. > ...edited... > Now David Comments and then Asks: > > I've heard the "Dobby thinks they're different so JKR must think they're different" statement as evidence to the theory that JKR considers T. Riddle and Lord Voldemort to be separate - and I can understand why. > > What I don't understand is: > > ...edited quote... > > If Riddle and Voldemort are not one and the same, then when did Voldemort appear for Harry to be able to hear his laughter? or Why does JKR call the spirit from the diary by both names? Asian_lovr2: Dobby's 'clue' about Riddle not being Voldemort (short version) doesn't create an absolute, but it does set a precedent. This arguement stems from JKR saying that the Half Blood Prince is not Harry or Voldemort. That brings up the question, does that absolutely eliminate Tom Riddle? Tom and Voldy are different, in the same way that no 70 year old man is the same person he was at 16. They are also different in that Voldemort has is new semi-immortal Snake body, where as Tom Riddle was a tall handsome man. Also, until he killed his parents, Tom may have been redeemable, he may have been salvagable. And Voldemort, as I'm sure we all agree, is beyond slavation. But from a different perspective, they are indeed that same person, in the sense that a 16 year old boy grows to be a 70 year old man. They are different, yet one and the same; different does not mean totally disconnected. So the question is not an absolute but a matter of perspective, and the extention of that question is whether or not JKR has made a distinction between Voldemort and Riddle when she says the Half Blood Prince is not Harry or Voldy? While we can not read her mind and say with absolute certainty, we can point to precedents that support that theory. Just a thought. Steve/Asian_lovr2 From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Sun Jul 25 07:43:28 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 07:43:28 -0000 Subject: Who is berk (Diaries) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107629 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > > In the UK, "diary", as you suggest, is used to describe a daily > record of one's doings (as in the case of Samuel Pepy's diary) and > also to indicate events and appointments. The word "journal" to the > majority of UK folk would probably indicate a magazine of some sort > (viz the Wall Street Journal). > > Referring to Tom Riddle's diary as an example, if you were to go into > one of the big UK stationers - W.H.Smith for example - and ask for a > diary, you would be directed to a shelf of pre-dated books, often > formatted as a day per page or a week to a double page. I think the > practice of writing a "journal" is not practiced much and hasn't been > for many years. I doubt whether Tom Riddle kept much in his diary.... Carolyn: ooh, Geoff, your restraint does you credit. I feel new members really ought to know that this little snippet generated an extraordinarily long thread last year; I'll just say two words: Vauxhall Road! Start at 86517 and continue through to 86957 and beyond..I stopped keeping a note of the posts after a while. Everything turns on the dates - just why the heck was a teenage trainee evil overlord buying a diary in an obscure, and very heavily- bombed part of London, when his south London orphanage had been closed at the beginning of the war? [IF..he lived at that orphanage..by no means established]. Discuss..as they say. No satisfactory explanation has yet been found. Carolyn Who, inspired by Pippin's redoubtable example, just won't give up on a pet theory From jferer at yahoo.com Sun Jul 25 08:18:27 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 08:18:27 -0000 Subject: Attack on Hogwarts - the Fifth Column? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107630 LadyMyneh: "> Just a thought bringing together two threads of this discussion- if House Elves can Apparate (or something similar) into Hogwarts, is it possible that they could be used, not for defense, as has been suggested elsewhere, but in the cases when they're owned by evil families, actually forced to attack and sabotage the grounds? That would certainly give Hermione's cause some support, since free house elves might not be able to be forced to do such a thing." Right on. It could also be that attacking somewhere is more than a house elf can be made to do. Actually, there's a potential fifth column already in the school in the form of Draco, Crabbe, Goyle, and who knows how many others, many in Slytherin. These would be like the Trojans in the horse, ready to open the gates and let the main body in, either physically or magically. (We could call them the Offensive Association, the "OA," probably with Draco in the lead. Nice symmetry.) That's a good reason for Dumbledore to let all the Slytherins remain in school and treat them well. They'd be a built-in early warning system; Either they'd start engaging in suspicious activity, some parents would start taking their children out of the school, or someone would have a qualm of conscience and flip or maybe just have loose lips. If house elves are involved, one or more, knowing Hermione's reputation, might do a Dobby and give a warning. Word seems to travel fast among house-elves. An attack on Hogwarts is almost inevitable sometime, but I'd place my bet on Book 7 for when it would happen. Jim Ferer From patientx3 at aol.com Sun Jul 25 08:53:27 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 08:53:27 -0000 Subject: How should Harry deal with Snape? (was: Why Snape doesn't have to be human) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107631 Mel wrote: > There was very little to like about the > young man in book 5, which I appreciated just because it was a > fairly accurate depiction of a pouty teenager, but that little > tirade finished him for me. He'd better have a personality > transplant over the next summer or Snape won't be his only problem. Salit replied: >> I really liked Harry in book 5. He finally managed to express his feelings, shout, cry (at the end), etc. He managed to overcome the united hostility of the world towards him and his own internal demons to act in an honorable and selfless manner (for some example, see his actions when Umbridge discovers the DA, and of course when he goes to "save" Sirius). << HunterGreen: I liked Harry a lot in book five too. I appreciated the fact that for the first time he appears to have *some* emotion about what he's been through. One of my big pet peeves is Harry's actions/emotional state in OotP being explained by him being a "teenager". For one thing he was a teenager in PoA and GoF too (and he was a pre-teen in the first few books, and pre-teens are often just as obnoixious as teenagers), so any HUGE difference in his behavior is not just due to his age. Most importantly though, Harry's emotional state is perfectly understandable in OotP considering what he's gone through. First he witnesses a friend of his murdered, then he's tied to a gravestone (by a person he saved the life of no less), watches as Voldemort is reborn, is tortured by him (and laughed at by a group of grown men), then is forced to duel with someone who has FAR more knowledge in that area, and barely wins. THEN, he is sent home where he's living with three people who don't care about him AT ALL (therefore can't possibly be of any comfort to him), where all of his friends send him letters with vague clues about things they can't tell him, and he's told he will 'eventually' get to leave, but no one mentions a date (and when he does leave, quite a bit of the summer is over already). How would you expect an 'adult' to react to this situation? Honestly, if he had been all cheery and happy when he got to Grimmauld Place, I would wonder if he was human, there's only so much a person can take. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sun Jul 25 09:10:24 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 09:10:24 -0000 Subject: Attack on Hogwarts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107632 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" > > So far, of all the named places of significance in the WW, there's > > only one we haven't been to - Azkaban. Now that the Dementors > > have gone Harry and his chums could visit without having an > > attack of the vapours. > > > Carolyn: > Worth remembering something she says on her website about the > earliest versions of Chapter 1 of PS/SS: > > '[I had] the Potters living on a remote island, Hermione's family > living on the mainland, her father spotting something that resembles > an explosion out at sea and sailing out in a storm to find their > bodies in the ruins of their house.' > > She says she subsequently re-located the Potters to Godric's Hollow, > for plot reasons, but then goes on to say: > > 'I have come close to using a chapter very like this in PS, POA, OOP, > but here [ie Book 6] finally, it works...when you read it, just know > that it's been about thirteen years in the brewing.' > > It seems to me that the idea of an explosion on an island out at sea > could very well become an explosion at Azkaban. > Hmm. Wish you'd posted this before I sent in the RADIO TBAY, I could have used it for the lead story (and yes SSSusan, that story was inspired by the Fudge threads). Explosions are a rare event in the WW - we know of two - Godric's Hollow and the Sirius/Peter confrontation. Would either have been powerful enough to reduce Azkaban to rubble? Seems doubtful, though we really have no idea how big the place is. I'd always envisioned it as big and solid - a cross between 19th Century Bedlam and Dartmoor. No reason it should be, though; how many prisoners are in there? A few dozen at most, now I come to consider it. One small snag is geography - it's supposed to be waaaay out at the northern end of the North Sea; which puts it a couple of hundred miles from the mainland at least. (One of the reasons I was so sceptical about Sirius having swum to shore). Any explosion is unlikely to be noticed, I'd have thought. Unless the WW has done another St Mungo's and disguised Azkaban as something else - like an oil rig. Or - maybe Privet Drive gets blown up; that'd explain her comment that Harry only spends a short time there this summer. Bits of Dudders being spread round the neighbourhood for the delight and delectation of the local moggies would be quite entertaining. Or - it's never been determined whether or no the Godric's Hollow house was the Potter family pile. I suspect not, in which case Harry's inheritance could could vanish in a small mushroom-shaped cloud. She'd placed the GH house on an island and then changed the venue, so maybe the old homestead will be out on the briny instead. Or - the Burrow. Enemy action or Gred and Forge being a bit too ambitious? Worth a few wild thoughts. Though I still fancy the Chamber for the final show-down. Kneasy From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sun Jul 25 09:22:52 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 05:22:52 -0400 Subject: How should Harry deal with Snape? Message-ID: <001201c47228$f6b96520$10c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 107633 Siriusly Snapey Susan said: "Oh--and I think it goes w/o saying--that I don't think Snape & Harry would ever truly like each other nor that Snape's sarcasm would ever disappear re: Harry." DuffyPoo now: Very like Snape and Sirius. At the end of GoF and throughout OotP they were forced to work together for the common good, but they still loathed each other. Snape's sarcasm/critisism need not disappear as it certainly didn't with Sirius but I can see a time when Snape and Harry may be forced to *work* together, by DD, by, as you said, Harry coming to the conclusion "I will show him that I understand we MUST work together," or by some other means. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sun Jul 25 09:36:34 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 05:36:34 -0400 Subject: Defending Percy Message-ID: <001f01c4722a$e09301a0$10c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 107634 Willy: "Anyway, has anybody considered that Percy may be Dumbledor's spy inside the ministry? And that Percy broke with his family as cover? Too obvious? Just my one gnuts worth." Luckdragon64 writes: "This is always a possibility; but I'm sure Dumbledore must know many older and wiser wizards who could spy inside the ministry without causing the pain and anguish the Weasley's must be going through due to Percy's defection." DuffyPoo now: Besides, DD already has Aruthur Weasley, Tonks, Kingsley Shacklebolt (and possibly others) as spies at the ministry. Older, and probably more dependable, than Percy. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sun Jul 25 09:46:54 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 05:46:54 -0400 Subject: Riddle AND Voldemort in the Chamber Message-ID: <002801c4722c$522d8960$10c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 107635 David Said: >" FromAmerican Edition" "Then he heard *Riddle's* hissing voice: Kill him. The basilisk was moving toward Harry; he could hear its heavy body slithering heavily across the dusty floor. Eyes still tightly shut, Harry began to run blindly sideways, his hands outstretched, feeling his way -- *Voldemort* was laughing--" (Emphases mine) If Riddle and Voldemort are not one and the same, then when did Voldemort appear for Harry to be able to hear his laughter? or Why does JKR call the spirit from the diary by both names?< DuffyPoo now: But in my Canadian edition (Raincoast - which is supposed to be identical to the British Edition) - it uses *Riddle* in both places. I have to say that I am truly - truly - beginning to despise these differences in the texts and what, exactly, JKR means by them. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sun Jul 25 10:09:56 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 06:09:56 -0400 Subject: Apparate into Hogwarts? Message-ID: <003101c4722f$89d8c250$10c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 107636 MJ said: "OotP, page 622..... "Fawkes circled the office and swooped low over him [DD]. Dumbledore released Harry, raised his hand, and grasped the phoenix's long golden tail. There was a flash of fire and the pair of them had gone." If that doesn't mean he apparated out of there, what does it mean?" DuffyPoo Now: I took it to mean that Fawkes, like House-elves, have their own brand of magic powers and they left DD's office under Fawkes' magic not DD's. As to the discussion about whether or not House-elves truly apparate in and out of the castle, or just vanish and appear elsewhere, we don't *really* know where DD and Fawkes went at this moment, either. They could easily have appeared at the front door and Fawkes, being able to carry heavy loads, flew DD to safety. The MoM lot were in DD's office and Umbridge, Kingsley and Dawlish went looking for him *inside the castle* - 'The stairs!' cried Dawlish - after DD and Fawkes vanished. Even Umbridge says: "Well, he can't have Disapparated! You can't do it from inside this school --" Strangely both Umbridge and Snape say you can't apparate/disapparate from *Inside* the castle (PoA -'He didn't disapparate!' Snape roared, now very close at hand. 'You can't apparate or disapparate inside this castle!') yet in GoF Hermione says 'You can't Disaparate in the Hogwarts *grounds*, haven't I told you enough times?' So, is it the *grounds* or the *school* or the *castle* proper? I tend to think the whole Hogwarts grounds are protected, though not for any particular reason do I think that. No cannon springs to mind. The Knight Bus did stop outside the gates when returning the gang to Hogwarts after Christmas but do we know for certain it couldn't go inside the gates? And, is what the Knight bus does truly *apparating/disapparating*? I don't know, and I'm NOT travelling on it to find out!! ;-) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From snow15145 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 25 11:50:14 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 11:50:14 -0000 Subject: Theory on James and Lilly Potters occupations In-Reply-To: <027a01c47180$3c51e890$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107637 Charme: >snip< About Lily and Potions....how long has Snape been the Potions Master at Hogwarts? In OoP, I think he says 13 or 14 years to Umbridge's question, doesn't he? You might on to something, Snow, however I thought Lily was exceptionally gifted at charms.... Snow: Snape had been teaching for 14 years as of book 5, which means that he became a teacher the year that the Potters were killed because Harry was 15 in this same book. Lily's wand was exceptional for charm use so I suppose that would mean that it was her forte. James' wand was exceptional for transfiguration and he was capable of transforming himself by being an animagus just like McGonnagall who is the transfiguration teacher. The only teaching positions that may have been open at the time when the Potters could have possibly taught there would have been dada and potions. In fact why was the potions position open to Snape the year the Potters were killed? Someone had to have left the position. I defiantly think you have the right idea that James and/or Lily taught at Hogwarts. I like the theory more and more though that James had been the dada teacher. This could also be the answer to the question that was posed to JKR asking whether any of the teachers were married. JKR (The sly fox that she is) could have been thinking of James as a teacher when she answered this question, yes. Tanya: However, I have a query. Hagrid says in PS/SS that Hogwarts was one of the only safe places back then. If Lily and James were teaching, in October with the fidelus charm being set when they lived at Godrics Hollow. Wouldn't it have made more sense for them to be living within Hogwarts if teaching at that time? Snow: Hogwarts may have been a safe haven but James may not have wanted to put the school or its head master in jeopardy so he left the teaching profession to go into hiding. This could be the simple answer as to why James turned down Dumbledore's offer to be their secret keeper. I always thought that the Godric's Hollow home belonged to James but I don't recall it being specifically mentioned that it was. Does anyone know if the Godric's Hollow house belonged to James? What if this home belonged to Dumbledore? Dumbledore may have offered his ancestral home at Godric's Hollow as an alternative to the protection of the school. If the home did belong to Dumbledore there most likely were ancestral portraits there who could keep in touch with Dumbledore. I really feel that the majority of Book Six will answer all the pre- quell questions like this one. Background information on all the characters would enlighten us without giving major plot information away. From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Sun Jul 25 11:52:49 2004 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 12:52:49 +0100 Subject: Neville and potions - an unpopular opinion Message-ID: <41039F11.6030300@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107638 If we allow that at least some of the Hogwarts pupils represent some features from the real world education, then Neville has the most obvious parallel - he is the special needs child. Now, I maintain another unpopular opinion - that Snape's teaching method is not criminal and not even outside of the range of valid methods, and works perfectly well for average and above students. It might even be one of the more efficient methods for gifted students. But that's not the point I want to argue today. But even I agree wholeheartedly that Snape's methods and special needs children should not mix. Ever. But Neville is stuck in the tough wizarding world, and Potions is a mandatory subject for 5 miserable years. He can't escape potions, he can't escape this particular potions master. That much is given. What I'm trying to ask is: could he, in this reality, do something to make his experience less miserable? Could his friends do something to the same affect? Again, I'm interested in actions within the given reality, not the wishful thinking to the lines of "let's send Snape to modern teaching training". My opinion is that yes, he could. And he should. And I'm upset that he does not. Neville is not a stupid boy. He should be able to analyse his own limitations and find some workarounds. I had several dyslexic friends, who went to school before schools were really accommodating about this sort of thing, and they all told me how they found some coping techniques by the age of 13-14. Neville obviously has some problems following spoken instructions. Again, he is not stupid, so it must be some problem with auditory processing. Why does not he have them written down, in front of him? That's where his friends could help. Snape follows some sort of organised curriculum and a textbook, how difficult is it to figure out what's going to be the next week's potion? They could even ask Snape at the end of each lesson - some Gryffindor that doesn't trigger his temper, like Dean or Seamus, or Lavender. If that's too much, they have Potions on Friday, right? Presumably, Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs have the same lesson earlier in the week, why can't Parvati ask Padma? The only person that tries to give Neville some practical help is Hermione, but that's a very limited kind of help. She just helps him to survive the current lesson, which does nothing to his potions skills or knowledge. What he really needs is some help before the lesson, maybe just go through the instructions several times, maybe practice some cutting techniques. "Teach him fishing" kind of help, not give him just enough fish to survive the day. Not to mention that this constant whispering does nothing to improve Hermione's standing with Snape - does anyone really believes he does not know what's going on? Irene From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Jul 25 12:14:05 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 12:14:05 -0000 Subject: Who is berk (Diaries) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107639 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" > wrote: Carolyn: > ooh, Geoff, your restraint does you credit. I feel new members really > ought to know that this little snippet generated an extraordinarily > long thread last year; I'll just say two words: Vauxhall Road! > > Start at 86517 and continue through to 86957 and beyond..I stopped > keeping a note of the posts after a while. > > Everything turns on the dates - just why the heck was a teenage > trainee evil overlord buying a diary in an obscure, and very heavily- > bombed part of London, when his south London orphanage had been > closed at the beginning of the war? [IF..he lived at that > orphanage..by no means established]. Discuss..as they say. No > satisfactory explanation has yet been found. Geoff: Yes, the Vauxhall Road thread did generate a lot of "traffic", egged on by myself and Shaun Hately and would still be of interest to new members as you suggest but in this latest post, I was just picking up on the comments re the use of "diary" versus "journal" without considering any further implications. From drednort at alphalink.com.au Sun Jul 25 12:23:08 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 22:23:08 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Neville and potions - an unpopular opinion In-Reply-To: <41039F11.6030300@btopenworld.com> Message-ID: <410432CC.16026.2EE21CA@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 107640 On 25 Jul 2004 at 12:52, Irene wrote: > If we allow that at least some of the Hogwarts pupils represent some > features from the real world education, then Neville has the most > obvious parallel - he is the special needs child. > Now, I maintain another unpopular opinion - that Snape's teaching method > is not criminal and not even outside of the range of valid methods, and > works perfectly well for average and above students. It might even be > one of the more efficient methods for gifted students. But that's not > the point I want to argue today. > But even I agree wholeheartedly that Snape's methods and special needs > children should not mix. Ever. But Neville is stuck in the tough > wizarding world, and Potions is a mandatory subject for 5 miserable > years. He can't escape potions, he can't escape this particular potions > master. That much is given. What I'm trying to ask is: could he, in this > reality, do something to make his experience less miserable? Could his > friends do something to the same affect? Again, I'm interested in > actions within the given reality, not the wishful thinking to the lines > of "let's send Snape to modern teaching training". > My opinion is that yes, he could. And he should. And I'm upset that he > does not. It's an interesting perspective - but the thing is while I think it is certainly possible that Neville has some sort of learning difficulty, I think his biggest problem when it comes to Snape's class is his fear of Snape. I think Neville's biggest problem is precisely what McGonagall, says it is. "'You cannot pass an OWL,' said Professor McGonagall grimly, 'without serious application, practice and study. I see no reason why everybody in this class should not achieve an OWL in Transfiguration as long as they put in the work.' Neville made a sad little disbelieving noise. 'Yes, you too, Longbottom,' said Professor McGonagall. There's nothing wrong with your work except lack of confidence." (Sorry - no page numbers - this is out of some notes I've been taken, and my book is currently elsewhere). I think this is probably Neville's major problem - it may be fed by other issues, he may have developed a lack of confidence because of other difficulties - but it's his main issue. And, I'd hope, that it's now largely a thing of the past. Neville has shown his courage - I think Neville is far less likely to ever be scared by school work again, and if he does have other issues, I suspect he's more likely to find a way of addressing them than he was before. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sun Jul 25 13:14:24 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 13:14:24 -0000 Subject: Doesn't Voldemort know about Snape's loyalty? In-Reply-To: <2b.5ce3a5e4.2e34b5ec@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107641 Charme said: > > Oh, I don't know...what complicates this is Quirrell's statement > > about the "counter curse" Snape was "muttering" in answer to > > Harry's realization that Quirrell was hexing his broom during > > the Quidditch match. I don't think Voldemort is naive enough to > > think that if Snape was still loyal to him, he'd be trying to > > save Harry Potter that day - Snape could have turned a blind eye > > or not muttered the correct counter spell. Julie says: > This is the main reason I have a hard time believing the "Snape as > a double agent" theory. Besides having ample opportunity to kill > Harry himself, Snape could have looked the other way several times > too, while someone else did the dirty work. If Voldemort's main > objective is to kill Harry, and Snape is a double agent, then > *why* hasn't Snape taken care of Harry already? What reason would > Snape have to keep playing the spy game, not to mention helping to > keep Harry alive to grow stronger and more skilled at Wizardry? SSSusan: Hmmmm. (I seem to be doing a lot of "Hmmmming" around here lately.) Well, Julie, I think the answer to your question is *timing,* at least through GoF. Until Voldy came back with a body of his own, he never called his DEs to him...some of them claimed to- -and perhaps really did--believe he was dead. Why would Snape kill Harry simply because he had been a double agent when Voldy was around the first time? In SS/PS through the end of GoF, he'd have had NO instructions for what to do about Harry Potter--there'd have been no active "main objective" any more. Charme, your question gives me more pause. Snape could, indeed, have looked the other way, pretended he never realized Harry's life was in danger. Why didn't he? Does Voldy know that DD is a legilimens? I suppose Snape could argue that he couldn't do anything directly to injure Potter or DD might know. True, once Harry were out of the way, Voldy's rise to power would be more assured. But presumably DD would still be a powerful enemy, Voldy STILL wouldn't know that the prophecy had said Harry was the *one* with the power to vanquish him, and he might still want Snape set up near DD. If Voldy understands that DD is a legilimens, then he knows Snape's tasks have to be carefully limited. That's just a stab in the dark...which is probably painfully obvious. :-) Siriusly Snapey Susan From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sun Jul 25 13:33:13 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 13:33:13 -0000 Subject: Riddle AND Voldemort in the Chamber (was RE: [HPforGrownups] Half Blood Prince Theory) In-Reply-To: <20040724202935.36915.qmail@web90009.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107642 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, David Gabbard wrote: > > Brenda wrote: > > "There is a passage in COS where Dobby tells Harry he was giving him a > clue about Tom Riddle, not Voldemort, because he had not changed his name > yet at that point. This clearly defines that in JKR's world Tom and > Voldemort are not considered one and the same. COS was about Harry and Tom > Riddle. I think HBP will be about Harry learning more about why Tom Riddle > became Voldemort." > > Now David Comments and then Asks: > > I've heard the "Dobby thinks they're different so JKR must think they're different" statement as evidence to the theory that JKR considers T. Riddle and Lord Voldemort to be separate - and I can understand why. > > What I don't understand is: > > Chamber of Secrets, American Edition, P318 - After Riddle has called forth the Basilisk: > > "Then he heard *Riddle's* hissing voice: > > Kill him. > > The basilisk was moving toward Harry; he could hear its heavy body slithering heavily across the dusty floor. Eyes still tightly shut, Harry began to run blindly sideways, his hands outstretched, feeling his way -- *Voldemort* was laughing--" (Emphases mine) > > If Riddle and Voldemort are not one and the same, then when did Voldemort appear for Harry to be able to hear his laughter? or Why does JKR call the spirit from the diary by both names? > SSSusan: I think it's possible that this simply means that Harry heard the *sound* of Voldemort's laughter, that is, that he *recognized* it as Voldemort's, from his own flashbacks of his mother's death. Maybe the way TR laughed managed to be carried on into his Voldy form. Siriusly Snapey Susan From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Jul 25 13:42:09 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 13:42:09 -0000 Subject: Quick Question re: Lupin's resignation In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20040724222557.01739a78@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107643 Liss wrote: > > I REALLY have to stop comparing Wolfsbane potion to birth control pills. > Potioncat: Well, I don't think it's too much of a stretch. IMHO, the monthly effects of PMS is the inspiration behind the werewolf stories. The men who told the stories knew that if they made the character a woman who became a deadly beast on a monthly basis, they wouldn't survive to tell the story twice. From jferer at yahoo.com Sun Jul 25 14:13:28 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 14:13:28 -0000 Subject: Digest Number 4985 In-Reply-To: <46.54074254.2e34b850@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107644 Susan: "I can understand your reaction, Alla, but I don't know that I agree with you. We've seen very little indication that Snape is interested in changing. So if a change is going to occur between the two, I think it just might have to come from an effort of Harry's." I agree completely. It would be like trying to change a mate. Susan: "What could it hurt for Harry to TRY this tack? Not a thing. The bigger question, I think, is: Is it *possible* for a 16-year-old, filled with anger and frustration..." That's better now for Harry. He might be. Who will talk to him about it? The only way for Harry to find out is to try it. He needs to try it. SSS: "...convinced this man truly loathes him..." Correctly convinced... SSS: " to set all that aside and say, "NO. I will not feed the cycle by being a berk to him. I will not give him reason any more to fail me, to sneer at me, to belittle me. I will show him that I understand we MUST work together." Julie:"When it comes to Snape and Harry, I think we all assume Harry is the better person, don't we? Snape is mean and embittered, while Harry isn't (yet). If something is going to change between them, I think it will be at Harry's instigation. But first, Harry needs to grow up a bit more and recognize that fact." Harry's going the right direction, though. He's accepted by his peers again, becoming a leader, vindicated in the world, rediscovered his compassion. Can he think of this himself, or does he need one of his friends/mentors to suggest it? Lupin might be the best candidate for doing that. You know what would be fun to try? Write the dialog of that scene, where Harry confronts Snape. How would Snape react? Reject it completely? Throw Harry out of his office, but the words work on Snape later? Bite Harry in the neck? Jim Ferer From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Jul 25 15:02:17 2004 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 25 Jul 2004 15:02:17 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1090767737.40.448.m7@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107645 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, July 25, 2004 Time: 11:00AM CDT (GMT-05:00) Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. Chat times do not change for Daylight Saving/Summer Time. Chat generally goes on for about 5 hours, but can last as long as people want it to last. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type: /join HP:1 Hope to see you there! From oppen at mycns.net Sun Jul 25 15:36:19 2004 From: oppen at mycns.net (ericoppen) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 15:36:19 -0000 Subject: Percy Weasley and "Donnie Brasco" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107646 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lorelei3dg" wrote: > > "ericoppen" wrote: > > > Until I hear definitely (as in from Herself herself) that Percy > > > turned against his family for base reasons, I shall continue to > > > stick to my own theory about his motivations. > > Phil wrote: > > I've lost the URL, but I believe she confirms in the "World Book Day > > 2004" chat that Percy is acting of his own free will. > > > Lorel writes: > Percy acting of his own free does not preclude undercover work; he > could have chosen to take on the job without having been > forced/tricked/enchanted to do so. > > (For my part, I'm afraid he's just being a "moron," to borrow the > term (thanks, Phil!), but I hope otherwise and greatly enjoy this > speculation.) In point of fact, Herself's statement that he is "acting of his own free will" could perfectly well point to his undercover role. Nobody can be forced to do this sort of thing---it's volunteers-only. If Joe Pistone, the FBI guy who became "Donnie Brasco," had decided that he didn't want to do it, they couldn't have forced him to. An unwilling mole can betray himself in a thousand ways, many of which would look like inadvertence or sheer bad luck. As for a mole not being needed---Arthur Weasley's pro-DD views are well-known, and apparently resulted in his being shunted aside into a role where he couldn't access much information. Compared to his father, Percy's position is perfect for spying---and his break with his family would make the anti-DD faction trust him more. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 25 15:51:40 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 15:51:40 -0000 Subject: How should Harry deal with Snape? (was: Why Snape doesn't have to be human) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107647 > Mel: > Well, let's see. By attending to his lessons and studying. By > minding his own business. By following the rules once in a while and > even occassionally listening to something told him by an adult. > *Any* adult. Alla: Abd I stand by my opinion - that will not work. > Mel > Herein lies the problem. After 5 years, why is he still--why are > readers still--expecting "reasonable treatment"? > *That* is the question! > Alla: Yes, why, why indeed? Why the child expects the teacher to treat him reasonably? Why the reader expects the character not to hold the grudge against another character who is innocent of the wrongdoings ? The fact that Snape is constant in his hatred right now, does not mean that this will be his function in the narrative till the end. I firmly believe that JKR intends for Snape to change, to redeem himself at the end. I don't believe that he will be the same when the books are finished. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 25 16:02:16 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 16:02:16 -0000 Subject: Why Snape doesn't have to be human In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107648 > Alla earlier : "By the way, after her answer, I don't really believe that he is > a vampire, although I could never figure out why people are so > strongly opposed to that theory." Jim: > I can only answer for me. > > I have a more conservative approach to "theories" - they're really > hypotheses - than some people do. When I come up with a speculation, > I try to find reasons to knock it down, not build it up. A lot of > people hang very large theories on very tiny snippets of text. We try > to wring too much meaning out of too few words. IOW, I believe in > being very tough on proving any kind of theory that makes a big > difference in the story. snip. > > To get to the Snape-as-vampire theories, and again no offense meant, > the adherents have relied on very small clues while explaining away in > different ways very large objections, including something JKR said, > which we are told isn't what it sounds like. > > JKR doesn't work that way. She plays fair in the literary sense. The > clues that Lupin was a werewolf were much larger. > > I almost didn't post this, but we're all grownups, and we can debate > how we go about exploring these great stories. NO ONE is singled out > here, believe me. Let this be like Valhalla, where we fight all day > and hoist a few at night. > Alla: LOL! Jim. No offense taken of course. You are one of the writers on the list whom I am learning a lot from and I love reading your posts. But here is what I don't understand. I am not that eager to see Snape as vampire or half vampire, BUT I think that we can see quite A LOT clues or red herrings or whatever, which lead to that interpretation. I don't understand why you are saying that this theory has very small canon support. Of course those cluse can be interpreted either way, but they are there. And no, I don't think that JKR always plays fair in the literary way. You compared clues about Vampire!Snape with Werevolf! Lupin clues, but I think more accurate comparison will be with Scabbers!Pettigrew. How many clues did we get about that revelation? Very, very few. How many clues did we get about Sirius not being a traitor? I think Vampire!Snape has more clues than those. From vmonte at yahoo.com Sun Jul 25 16:21:41 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 16:21:41 -0000 Subject: DoM question. Why write about a device that can reverse aging. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107649 vmonte: Just a question I have. Why would JKR write about a way that can reverse time in people (the DE that turned into baby head DE)? Is she planning on using this at the end of the series on someone? Will someone get another chance at a new life with a new family? Or is there someone in the series that was time turned? Could Voldemort die at the end of book seven leaving the remains of Tom Riddle, still clinging to life--by a thread? Will Tom be turned into a baby and given a second chance? What if an older character is time turned and revealed to be actually someone else? What if Fred and George are the Prewett brothers that were turned back to babies and taken in by Molly? Will someone be seriously injured and time-turned back to a baby? Or is this time-turning device an analogy JKR is using to give a clue about something else? It just seems like a strange device to introduce if it's not going to play a future role in the series. vivian From drliss at comcast.net Sun Jul 25 12:25:50 2004 From: drliss at comcast.net (Lissa Hess) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 08:25:50 -0400 Subject: DADA Teacher in HBP (and Possibly book 7) Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20040725082519.017626d0@mail.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 107650 Now Phil suggests: >For book six DADA teacher? >Nymphadora Tonks >She could teach Harry Concealment and Disguise >Plus be the sexy young female teacher that all of the boys have crushes on. >Smiles, >Phil Lissa: Phil, I also started thinking it was an OotP member. I have a couple of thoughts. I like the idea of Lupin, for a lot of non-main plot related reasons. I'm wondering how he and Snape will relate to each other now that Sirius is gone. (Does anyone else suspect there might be something more of a history there? I'm still sticking by my theory that they were friends the first year and one of the reasons Snape despises Sirius and James was they "stole" Lupin from him.) I also think Lupin and Harry are going to have difficulties in their relationship, and that's much more pronounced if Lupin's at Hogwarts. Finally, if I were Dumbledore, I'd totally have this guy on some sort of suicide watch anyways. Seriously. How much more can one person take? Reasons it might not be Lupin? What sort of mysterious work is he doing for the order? (My guess is some sort of liason with other critters or other countries where it's not quite so well-known that he's a werewolf, but as he points out in OotP, it's not like he's running around convincing other wizards.) Moody is an attractive possibility, but I'm thinking he's needed in other areas. Plus, he's just not as much fun to have around- he seems pretty straightforward to me. I keep thinking Tonks is cannon fodder. (Either that or the conciliatory love interest for Lupin, which is an idea I really hate.) But I could see her being an interesting DADA teacher. If it's somebody we've met, I have a really interesting bet: Bill Weasley. If he's been cursebreaking for Gringotts, he's got to be pretty darn good at DADA. Will he leave his job at the bank? Heh. Maybe he's tired of travel and more interested in spending time at home (ahem, with Fleur). So, my bets are for Lupin and/or Bill Weasley. Lissa From jbenne27 at tampabay.rr.com Sun Jul 25 13:33:22 2004 From: jbenne27 at tampabay.rr.com (jbenne27 at tampabay.rr.com) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 16:33:22 +0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: Re: Defending Percy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107651 DuffyPoo: > > Besides, DD already has Aruthur Weasley, Tonks, Kingsley > Shacklebolt (and possibly others) as spies at the ministry. > Older, and probably more dependable, than Percy. > Pilotjb3 Writes: All true but no one on the inside right next to the MOM himself. What better way to earn his trust than make him think you have given up everything for him? From goldfoy at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 25 13:45:32 2004 From: goldfoy at yahoo.co.uk (goldfoy) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 13:45:32 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and The Lord of the Rings Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107652 I came to HPFGU while searching the web for comments and opinions about something that struck me after seeing the film version of the Prisoner of Azkaban. I was surprised to find that what seemed to me so obvious was not a subject for general discussion, so I offer the following for your consideration. All writers are influenced by other authors to a greater or lesser extent, sometimes without even being aware of their influence. I believe that one of the main influences, conscious or otherwise, on the Harry Potter series is The Lord of the Rings. There are some interesting parallels between J.K. Rowling's Harry Potter and J.R.R. Tolkien's Lord of the Rings, quite apart from both authors being published under their initials. * The basic plot of both concerns the quest to prevent an extremely powerful "Dark Wizard" (Sauron/Lord Voldemort) from taking over the world. * In both works the "Dark Wizard" has suffered a defeat which has reduced them to a spirit state, both stories revolve around their attempt to regain corporeal form and their full power. * Both "Dark Wizards" are countered by an equally powerful "White Wizard" (Gandalf/Professor Dumbledore) who prefers to act as a counsellor and support to others, rather than taking the lead in preventing the "Dark Wizard" from taking power. * In both stories the main burden of the quest falls on those apparently least able to fulfil it (Hobbits/children). Keen readers of Tolkien will immediately object that, unlike Gandalf, Sauron is not a Wizard (Istari). However as both Sauron and Gandalf are Maiar the analogy is surely valid. There are other similarities, some superficial such as the encounter with a giant spider (Shelob/Aragog), problems with aggressive trees (Old Man Willow/The Whomping Willow), or the similarity in appearance and effect of the Nazgul in their Black Rider incarnation and the Dementors. But others are more substantial like the introduction of a major character who is killed off prematurely (Boromir/Sirius Black), or the character who would be expected to play a leading role in the opposing the "Dark Wizard" but in the event proves to be totally inadequate (Denethor/Cornelius Fudge). Although these parallels are striking it would clearly be wrong to suggest that the Harry Potter series is just a retelling of The Lord of the Rings story set in a boarding school. The fact that Tolkien's creation has spawned a whole genre of fantasy fiction is proof of his influence on twentieth century fiction. In an interview J.K. Rowling has confirmed that she has read The Lord of the Rings so she is at least aware of the basic plot of The Lord of the Rings, even if she had not studied it closely. J.K. Rowling has definitely paralleled Tolkien in one respect; there have been a multitude of books written seeking to emulate her success. Similar parallels could probably be found in the works of Tolkien's friend and fellow Inkling, C.S. Lewis, but I will leave others to find them. Given these remarkable parallels it would not be unreasonable to suggest that the conclusion to the Harry Potter series would be similar to that of The Lord of the Rings. * In Lord of the Rings, Frodo manages to take the Ring to Sammoth Naur in the flanks of Orodruin but finally succumbs to the Ring and fails to cast it into the fire where it would be destroyed. * The task of destroying the Ring is unexpectedly completed by accident, Gollum takes the Ring from Frodo and falls into the fire in his excitement at regaining the Ring taking it with him to its final destruction. * After Sauron's destruction, Frodo, who has received many hurts in his journey to destroy the Ring, goes into exile in the west with the elves where his wounds are healed. There are perfectly good practical reasons why the conclusion of the Harry Potter series should be similar to that of The Lord of the Rings. * The books are principally intended for children and young adults. * The hero of such a book is likely to be seen as a potential role- model for its intended audience. * It would be undesirable for such a role-model to be a murderer, even if the murder was totally justified and carried out purely in self-defence. It would obviously be preferable for Harry Potter to be reluctant to actually kill Lord Voldemort because of his inherent goodness. His reluctance would put him at Lord Voldemorts mercy, but before Lord Voldemort can kill him someone else is able to save him by destroying Lord Voldemort. When Lord Voldemort is finally destroyed Harry Potter's link with him is broken and so are his magical powers. Harry Potter will therefore have to go into exile with the muggles because he is reduced to the level of a Squib. The problem with this ending is that it seems to contradict the first prophecy: "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lords knows not and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh moon dies " This would seem to imply that only Harry Potter can kill Lord Voldemort. However it could be interpreted as meaning that for Harry Potter or Lord Voldemort to live as a wizard with their full powers one must kill the other and in so doing gain the power held by the other. This interpretation would also imply that if one does not kill the other and one of them dies then the other will be unable to continue living as a wizard. It also clear that Lord Voldemort is not immortal and there is every reason to believe that he could be killed in an accident or some similar circumstance. It would be easy to create a scenario where Lord Voldemort lures Harry Potter somewhere for a final confrontation the logical conclusion of which would be the death of one of them at the hand of the other. Then unexpectedly, while they are intent on each other, someone else is able to step in and somehow destroy Lord Voldemort. J.K Rowling has already introduced a location where Lord Voldemort could be destroyed by someone other than Harry Potter and has given a hint as to how this could be achieved. Through Professor Dumbledore she has even given a hint as to which character will fulfil the role of Gollum and actually destroy Lord Voldemort. It would be reasonable to suppose that they would die in the process. Having not fulfilled the terms of the prophecy Harry Potter loses his magical powers and has to go and make his way in the world of muggles, a situation eased by the gold inherited from his parents and Sirius Black. This ending has the advantage of leaving Harry Potter as a hero untarnished by murder. The book ends as it began with Harry Potter in exile which seems to be a natural and satisfying conclusion to the story, though this ending would arguably be more C.S. Lewis than Tolkien. I believe that the parallels between the two works will be reinforced in Book 6 when Cornelius Fudge is replaced as Minister for Magic by someone who appears at first sight to be a most unlikely candidate for the job. When we first meet Denethor's replacement it as the disreputable, travel stained, Strider, not the noble born Aragorn. Again a superficial similarity but still worth noting. And don't forget, it's Sam who gets the girl, not Frodo From spoonmerlin at yahoo.com Sun Jul 25 15:18:07 2004 From: spoonmerlin at yahoo.com (Brent) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 15:18:07 -0000 Subject: Half Blood Prince Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107653 I don't think it can be Tom Riddle because the same reason he would be considered a prince would make the same true for LV. If his mother had some noble blood making him a prince that would still hold even if he changed his name. The Hagrid idea is interesting though I don't think it will be him. I still think it will be a new character. I'm thinking it will be some kind of half Bastilite (the king of snakes) creature or something like that. From desastreuse at yahoo.com Sun Jul 25 13:54:46 2004 From: desastreuse at yahoo.com (desastreuse) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 13:54:46 -0000 Subject: Most burning Snape question? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107654 SSSusan writes: > > Also, I'm guessing some HPfGU'ers will take exception with your > saying JKR is writing "YA books." It's been discussed quite a bit > on this board whether she ever intended children--or young adults-- > as her audience. She's flat-out said before that "I didn't write > with a target audience in mind. I never thought about writing for > children -children's books chose me." That could be interpreted > that she DIDN'T write these for children...or that she didn't set > out to write for children but it ended up that way. It's > a "discussable" topic at least, then. Cynthia: Yes, I can understand how the YA thing can get contentious. YA literature, though, is a far cry from "children's" literature, and thus far, JKR has towed--intentionally or not--the YA line thoroughly. I certainly have no problem with her pushing the envelope a bit, too, as the quality lit in this genre always does that. To her credit, as well, the texts have matured and deepened in ways no other YA series has before, qualities that demonstrate a tremendous respect for her loyal readership who started, roughly, with PS/SS at age 10. This first "class" of readers, if you will, is now 15.... The beauty of these works is that she doesn't attempt to hobble time or experience, and while that sounds like a "duh" kind of statement, there are profound implications contained therein. Thanks, too, Susan for the kind welcome. From spoonmerlin at yahoo.com Sun Jul 25 15:47:39 2004 From: spoonmerlin at yahoo.com (Brent) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 15:47:39 -0000 Subject: Theory on James and Lilly Potters occupations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107655 I had an idea along these lines awhile back and I was tring to find some quotes and such. I was thinking since Lily is mentioned as having a wand good for charms and knowing the ancient charm that saved Harry so may have been a Charms teacher. In book 6 several of the teachers say how long they have been teaching but I don't see a mention for Flitwick you just assume he has been there for years. Maybe I missed that in another book. I think James would have been the DADA teacher maybe the "curse" for teachers not lasting long started there. In an interview/chat JKR said that James has a low paying job because his family left him money. She also has said that Hogwarts has a graveyard and it would come up in a latter book. Maybe we will see that this is where James/Lily are baried as they were teachers. Here is a quote I mentioned(I can't find the graveyard one right now): What did James and Lily Potter do when they were alive? "Well, I can't go into too much detail, because you're going to find out in future books. But James inherited plenty of money, so he didn't need a well-paid profession. You'll find out more about both Harry's parents later." AOL Chat 19 October 2000 From doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com Sun Jul 25 15:55:24 2004 From: doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com (doddiemoemoe) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 15:55:24 -0000 Subject: Longbottoms' Secret Keeper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107656 Meri: The Longbottoms weren't attacked till well after the > > Potters were killed. According to DD that was one of the reasons > that people were so angry about the attacks. LV had fallen at this point, families were coming out of hiding, and people thought they were safe for the first time in ten years. IMHO it would be easy for Crouch and the LeStranges to find the Longbottoms at this point (WW yellow pages, anyone?). I would also assume that they were protected by Fidelius, but as to where they hid and who their secret keeper was we can only speculate till you know who lets us know. Doddie here: Neville is no sacrificial lamb; if he was, then the DE's in OOP would have killed him, yet they did not....not even bellatrix. boyd: > But none of these feel like they justify the many pages Jo's spent > developing this plot line. What else can it be? Well I a quite a few feelings on this subject at this point. Neville may well be one in the prophecy....the one to keep Harry's compass pointed where it needs to be. (at the least) Neville may have well been given a memory charm that was entirely too powerful for Neville at his young age.(Who gave it to him?!??!? probably his grandmother). The charm was too strong hence Neville's uncle tries to scare the magic out of Neville and his grandmother tries to intimidate his memories back.... DD seemed so sure that Neville was not whom the prophecy was directed towards...so we must ask....Does Neville have a prophecy of his own?!?!?! I believe that it will be Harry that will help to restore Neville's memories(not by spell, but by simply talking amongst themselves) and that as time goes by Neville remembers little by little(I think his memories have been returning to him for quite some time now--at, least since his experience in fake moody's class. As his confidence and that of others around Neville increase in him; his memories return. I believe that Neville's purpose is to vanquish the LeStranges, Bellatrix in particular.(After all, Harry did not destroy her in the MOM did he?) More than one prophecy makes a geat deal of sense considering how certain DD was during the "prophecy revelation" scene that Harry was the one...as Neville has also been marked as an ORPHAN, just like voldemort. Just because the Longbottoms were attacked after the Potters does not mean that Neville was not on LV's list perhaps upon LV's indirect orders, they went to the Longbottom residence to torture them to find out if Neville was the "one". (I can hear LV now, I will go to the Potter's on *this date*, kill the half-blood and will join you afterwards at the Longbottoms-- you will go to the Longbottoms and wait for me there. Then, when he does not show the DE's torture the Longbottom family. These type of actions would describe the actions of one who does not have knowledge of the complete prophesy. If this happened upon LV's orders, then, essentially Voldemort has marked both Harry and Neville as orphans effectively... If Lily's spell, in effect, created the scar upon Harry's head, then we must consider: 1. Prophecy may well have meant Neville OR Harry(perhaps the mark is that they are orphans...) However Neville's parents are alive yet, and we have great hopes for their minds to return. If this happens Neville is no longer marked. 2. If Peter Pettigrew was so much involved in these plots, then Peter may well be the "OTHER" in the prophecy!!! This well be the "look of triumph in DD's" eyes.. PP owes a life debt to Harry. When one must die at the HAND of THE OTHER...well...what if the other is Peter Pettigrew? And we all know he has quite the 'special hand'--both his new one and the one he supposedly "gave willingly". So now there is yet another theory if we interpret than the prophecy surronds THREE rather than TWO. Perhaps DD risked Harry and Hermione engaging in time travel so that Peter Pettigrew would owe Harry a life debt. Of course there is that whole "hand of glory" reference. Why is it there? All I know is that it will not simply be a spell that Vanquishes Voldemort for good...this leaves dying by the hand of another...perhaps godric's sword? or Peter Pettigrew's hand. Doddie, Who would sure like to read about Neville putting "the hurt" on Bellatrix! From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sun Jul 25 17:23:45 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 17:23:45 -0000 Subject: Theory on James and Lilly Potters occupations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107657 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snow15145" wrote: > Snape had been teaching for 14 years as of book 5, which means that > he became a teacher the year that the Potters were killed because > Harry was 15 in this same book. > > Lily's wand was exceptional for charm use so I suppose that would > mean that it was her forte. James' wand was exceptional for > transfiguration and he was capable of transforming himself by being > an animagus just like McGonnagall who is the transfiguration teacher. Kneasy: Bit of an exaggeration there. According to Ollivander Lily's wand was - "Nice wand for charm work," while James was "excellent for transfiguration," which in my reading means 'best suited for' rather than exceptional. I think that the reason DD took on Snape was for the same reason that he took on Trelawney - part protection, partly to keep a close eye on him. Don't forget, he'd been working for the Order for 2 years or more by that time. The Potters could have been teachers at Hogwarts but I think it unlikely that Harry could have been there for 5 years and have no-one mention the fact. I can't see a reason why it should be kept a secret. Minerva'd liked them as students and they'd been great favourites of Hagrid - and he's never been able to keep his mouth shut. What would be the point of keeping it from Harry? From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Jul 25 17:25:00 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 17:25:00 -0000 Subject: How should Harry deal with Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107658 Neri now: > OK, we are all here much wiser than Harry, and if we were in his place, we would have known EXACTLY how to deal with Snape. > Does anybody have an idea, how should Harry deal with Snape?< Well, he should stop lying and sassing back, because that is the behavior that Snape interprets as arrogant. *We* know Harry only does it because he's insecure and frightened of Snape, and the more Snape insults him and accuses him, the more insecure and frightened Harry becomes. But Snape doesn't dig that, and maybe never will. It doesn't really matter whether the core reason for that misunderstanding is rage, social ineptitude, prejudice or sheer cussedness--whatever it is, Harry didn't make Snape the way he is and isn't responsible for making him change the way he thinks -- on the other hand he can, by modifying his own behavior, hope to change the tenor of their interactions. Harry made a start at this at the end of OOP, when he freely admitted he was about to curse Malfoy instead of lying about it. And nothing very terrible happened, did it? He lost a few points. The worst that could have happened was a detention, and Snape's detentions, while not much fun, are certainly not in a class with Umbridge's. Now, if only, the next time Snape insults him, Harry could bring himself to say "You could be right about that, Sir." I've stopped bullying bosses in their tracks with that one. Of course it probably won't happen next time, because the Harry Snape conflict won't be resolved until Book Seven. But as Jim has challenged us to imagine how it would come about, here's my guess. Harry knows that lying, sassing back, and matching insults aren't constructive behaviors, but his attitude right now is "I only have to behave myself if Snape does." What could convince him to go the extra mile? JKR has said that Harry's glasses are the key to his vulnerability. What would happen if Harry lost his glasses at some critical moment and had, not only to trust Snape, but to avoid the behaviors that have confirmed Snape's poor opinion of him? Pippin From katiebug1233 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 25 16:38:56 2004 From: katiebug1233 at yahoo.com (Kate) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 16:38:56 -0000 Subject: DoM question. Why write about a device that can reverse aging. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107659 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > vmonte: > > Just a question I have. Why would JKR write about a way that can > reverse time in people (the DE that turned into baby head DE)? > > Is she planning on using this at the end of the series on someone? > Will someone get another chance at a new life with a new family? > > Or is there someone in the series that was time turned? When I read that passage I thought that it was a clue to Harry's initial survival. Hermione tells Harry not to curse the baby head DE because "you can't hurt a baby!". Harry thinks this is a strange thing from her to say at the time but doesn't have time to think about it seeing as they are running from the other DEs. I think Miss Hermione knows more about Harry's first escape from Voldemorte than she has expressed so far. I mean what would intrigue her curious nature more than the most unexplainable mystery of the WW (the boy who lived)? I think she has researched possible explainations of Harry's survival and has found that if you use magic against an innocent baby bad things will happen to you. I'm not trying to say that was all there was to the curse rebounding back onto V but I think the MoM scene was an allusion to Harry's attack as a small child. From davidagabbard at yahoo.com Sun Jul 25 16:47:23 2004 From: davidagabbard at yahoo.com (David Gabbard) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 09:47:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Doesn't Voldemort know about Snape's loyalty? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040725164723.25970.qmail@web90009.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107660 Julie says: > This is the main reason I have a hard time believing the "Snape as > a double agent" theory. If Voldemort's main > objective is to kill Harry, and Snape is a double agent, then > *why* hasn't Snape taken care of Harry already? What reason would > Snape have to keep playing the spy game, not to mention helping to > keep Harry alive to grow stronger and more skilled at Wizardry? David Asks: I have a very hard time with the Snape as a double agent theory. If Snape was still in Voldemort's service as a trusted death eater, then why didn't Voldemort just give Snape direct orders from the back of Quirrel's head? From tekayjaye at yahoo.com Sun Jul 25 17:34:30 2004 From: tekayjaye at yahoo.com (Tekay Jaye) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 10:34:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] DADA Teacher in HBP (and Possibly book 7) In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20040725082519.017626d0@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <20040725173430.14651.qmail@web90006.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107661 Lissa: So, my bets are for Lupin and/or Bill Weasley. Tekay now: I've been thinking about the pattern the original poster explained. I think that our DADA teacher in book 6 will be someone competent, like Lupin was in book 3, and will bring Harry information about Lily, just as Lupin provided informatin about James. I don't think we have already met this person. Books 1 and 4 had the DADA teacher as a Voldemort supporter. We will get a new DADA teacher, enabling Book 7 to follow the pattern here. The DADA teacher will be the one who actually brings the battle into Hogwarts. my two cents, of course Tekay From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sun Jul 25 18:16:44 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 18:16:44 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and The Lord of the Rings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107662 goldfoy wrote: > J.K Rowling has already introduced a location where Lord Voldemort > could be destroyed by someone other than Harry Potter and has > given a hint as to how this could be achieved. Through Professor > Dumbledore she has even given a hint as to which character will > fulfil the role of Gollum and actually destroy Lord Voldemort. It > would be reasonable to suppose that they would die in the process. SSSusan: Okay, I'll bite. Care to provide further detail on this location & individual? goldfoy: > I believe that the parallels between the two works will be > reinforced in Book 6 when Cornelius Fudge is replaced as Minister > for Magic by someone who appears at first sight to be a most > unlikely candidate for the job. When we first meet Denethor's > replacement it as the disreputable, travel stained, Strider, not > the noble born Aragorn. Again a superficial similarity but still > worth noting. SSSusan: Again, care to let us know which unlikely candidate you're considering here? goldfoy: > And don't forget, it's Sam who gets the girl, not Frodo SSSusan: Ron w/ Hermione, you mean?? Siriusly Snapey Susan From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sun Jul 25 18:21:43 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 18:21:43 -0000 Subject: JKR writing YA lit (was: Most burning Snape question?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107663 SSSusan writes: > > Also, I'm guessing some HPfGU'ers will take exception with your > > saying JKR is writing "YA books." It's been discussed quite a > > bit on this board whether she ever intended children--or young > > adults--as her audience. She's flat-out said before that "I > > didn't write with a target audience in mind. I never thought > > about writing for children -children's books chose me." That > > could be interpreted that she DIDN'T write these for > > children...or that she didn't set out to write for children but > > it ended up that way. It's a "discussable" topic at least, then. Cynthia: > Yes, I can understand how the YA thing can get contentious. YA > literature, though, is a far cry from "children's" literature, and > thus far, JKR has towed--intentionally or not--the YA line > thoroughly. I certainly have no problem with her pushing the > envelope a bit, too, as the quality lit in this genre always does > that. To her credit, as well, the texts have matured and deepened > in ways no other YA series has before, qualities that demonstrate > a tremendous respect for her loyal readership who started, > roughly, with PS/SS at age 10. This first "class" of readers, if > you will, is now 15.... The beauty of these works is that she > doesn't attempt to hobble time or experience, and while that > sounds like a "duh" kind of statement, there are profound > implications contained therein. > > Thanks, too, Susan for the kind welcome. SSSusan again: Do you think, Cynthia (or others), that JKR set out from the get-go with the idea of having her texts mature & deepen with each "year" of the series or that she made the decision to do so in response to her readership? I'm inclined towards the first view, but I'm curious if that's what you meant. Siriusly Snapey Susan From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sun Jul 25 18:28:02 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 18:28:02 -0000 Subject: Snape questions for JK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107664 > Laura wrote: > Thanks everyone who posted for your advice on what to ask JKR, I > really needed it! > > Well, I've made a *huge* list of Snape-related questions I'd love to > know the answers to (filled both sides of 2 A4 pages), spent hours > trawling through previous posts here, and of course, the books > themselves. I've put all the questions into categories of 'most > yearning to know' and 'most likely to be answered', crossed them off > one by one, and <> I'm down to the last four. Neri: The way to decide which question to choose is, IMO, to imagine all the possible answers to this question, and what they might tell us. So lets see: > Laura wrote: > 1) Can you give us any indication as to how Snape finds out what > Voldemort is saying to his Deatheaters? Neri: What might JKR answer here? 1a) "That would be telling". This at least tells us that Snape DOES finds this out, and that the true answer is important, but we are already pretty sure of that. 1b) "He turns into a bat and hangs from the ceiling above their heads during their meetings" (or any great revelation of this sort). Extremely unlikely she'll tell us such a thing. 1c) "If you've been reading OotP closely you might have already guessed". This will suggest that he is indeed a double agent and uses Occlumency and/or Legillimency. We DID guess that but it would be nice to get a bit of reassurance. 1d) "Are you so sure he really finds this out? Perhaps he's only making this up?" or some similar evasion. The most likely answer IMO. We learn nothing. > Laura wrote: > 2) Why DOES Snape call Voldemort 'the Dark Lord'? Neri: Possible answers: 2a) "Just a moment, I think somebody's shouting down in the hall. Must go check what is it about". An evasion, but at least it's an indication that this is indeed important. 2b) "Harry would like to know that". An even better evasion. Now we are only sure that Harry thinks it's important. 2c) "Well, if Snape is an agent he needs to play the part" or a revelation of that sort. Slim chances. 2d) "He thinks it sounds cool" or some similar disappointing explanation. Not very likely. > Laura wrote: > 3) Can you tell us anything about Snape's family, for example, if > they're 'pure-bloods' or if he's related to any of the characters > we've met so far? Neri: 3a) "Yes, I can tell you that he has an uncle who is a rocket engineer, and the Snapes can't handle the shame" or that sort of trivia. Might be moderately interesting. 3b) "They're thirty generations purebloods. Why do you think he was sorted to Slytherin?" Interesting, but not likely to be instrumental to the plot if Jo divulges it. 3c) "You'll find out something about Snape's family in Book 6". This at least tells us that there IS something important about his family. 3d) "His mother is a muggle-born, and little Severus was terrified that the other Slytherins will find out about it" or a similar exciting revelation. Unlikely Jo will tell us this if it's true. 3e) "They are immigrants from Transylvania, they sleep in coffins and all have looong fangs". Gee, I really hope not. > Laura wrote: > And the killer question...... > 4) Is there any truth in the rumours that Snape loved Lily? Neri: 4a) "Yes, there is". VERY exiting, but VERY unlikely she'll tell us if it's true. 4b) "Erm... I don't think so". The good ship LOLLIPOPS is sunk. The poor survivors will be extremely miffed, but there will be suddenly much more room in TBAY for alternative theories. 4c) "Sorry, but on principle I don't discuss rumors about people's love life" or any evasion of this kind. This means it might be important. LOLLIPOPS gets a moderate boost. 4d) "Keep reading, and you'll find out". Not very likely IMO, but LOLLIPOPS will get a BIG boost. My conclusion: 4 is easily the best the four questions. Any possible answer I can think of will tell us something interesting. 3 would be my second choice. Neri, who really hopes Jo doesn't lurk in HPfGU and is now planning her answers. From marcuscason at charter.net Sun Jul 25 18:58:25 2004 From: marcuscason at charter.net (kyntor70) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 18:58:25 -0000 Subject: How should Harry deal with Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107665 Pippin wrote: "Well, he should stop lying and sassing back, because that is the behavior that Snape interprets as arrogant. *We* know Harry only does it because he's insecure and frightened of Snape, and the more Snape insults him and accuses him, the more insecure and frightened Harry becomes. But Snape doesn't dig that, and maybe never will. It doesn't really matter whether the core reason for that misunderstanding is rage, social ineptitude, prejudice or sheer cussedness--whatever it is, Harry didn't make Snape the way he is and isn't responsible for making him change the way he thinks -- on the other hand he can, by modifying his own behavior, hope to change the tenor of their interactions. Harry made a start at this at the end of OOP, when he freely admitted he was about to curse Malfoy instead of lying about it. And nothing very terrible happened, did it? He lost a few points. The worst that could have happened was a detention, and Snape's detentions, while not much fun, are certainly not in a class with Umbridge's. Now, if only, the next time Snape insults him, Harry could bring himself to say "You could be right about that, Sir." I've stopped bullying bosses in their tracks with that one. Of course it probably won't happen next time, because the Harry Snape conflict won't be resolved until Book Seven. But as Jim has challenged us to imagine how it would come about, here's my guess. Harry knows that lying, sassing back, and matching insults aren't constructive behaviors, but his attitude right now is "I only have to behave myself if Snape does." What could convince him to go the extra mile? JKR has said that Harry's glasses are the key to his vulnerability. What would happen if Harry lost his glasses at some critical moment and had, not only to trust Snape, but to avoid the behaviors that have confirmed Snape's poor opinion of him?" Kyntor replies: And of course all the bad feelings between Harry and Snape is completely Harry's fault. Snape has no culpability at all. I will remind you that Snape's mistreatment of Harry stated Harry's very first potions class. Harry was pretty nuetral regarding Snape up to that point. Harry negative opinion of Snape only exists because of Snape's behavior towards Harry. You do not stop bullies by giving into them, you stop them by standing up to them. Letting them have their way just reinforces their behavior. I would deal with Snape quite differently that Pippin would. First, I would go through official channels. I would request a meeting with Dumbledore and McGonagall requesting that they take of the situation. I would tell them that not only is his behavior unethical and unprofessional, it is also unacceptable. Snape is not only mistreating Harry, he is also setting a very bad example for the Slytherins to follow. His Slytherins are going to believe that being biased and a bully is totally acceptable behavior. If Dumbledore and McGonagall does nothing about the situation, then it is time for Harry to do something himself. Harry could send a letter to paper detailing Snapes behavior. Harry could also mention the dark mark on his arm and the way he coddles the Slytherins. Everything Harry reported to the newspaper would be completely true and it would not blow any cover that Snape had to maintain. As a matter of fact the public scuffle between Snape and Harry would strengthen his cover. Since the opinion of the wizarding world regarding him has changed, I am sure people would value his opinion. I would keep up the campeign to get Snape fired until one of two things happened. Either Snape was fired or Dumbledore requested that Harry stop. If Snape is fired, end of problem. If Dumbledore asks Harry to stop, he can agree to under certain conditions. Make modifying Snapes behavior the condition. This method of dealing with Snape would not teach Snape any lessons (which he is probably too set in his way to learn now anyway), but it would stop the inappropriate behavior. Kyntor From darkthirty at shaw.ca Sun Jul 25 19:06:04 2004 From: darkthirty at shaw.ca (dan) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 19:06:04 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and The Lord of the Rings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107666 "goldfoy" wrote: > * After Sauron's destruction, Frodo, who has received many hurts > in > his journey to destroy the Ring, goes into exile in the west with the > elves where his wounds are healed. > > There are perfectly good practical reasons why the conclusion of the > Harry Potter series should be similar to that of The Lord of the > Rings. > When Lord Voldemort is finally destroyed Harry Potter's link with > him > is broken and so are his magical powers. Harry Potter will therefore > have to go into exile with the muggles because he is reduced to the > level of a Squib. Or the Seven Samurai film, who save the world "but not for us", or really any story in which the Hero comes from outside the standard/mainstream circles. This is an archetype that doesn't occur with much frequency in pre-colonial stories, or oral history, but dominates post-colonial literature. The outsider as saviour. The problem with the comparison, however, lies with the very conclusion you envisage. In LoTR Frodo's fate is deeply sad, but not meaningless - in fact, it holds the deepest meaning possible - Frodo is recognized abroad (out of The Shire). He WANTS to return to the Shire. Scarhead hasn't intimated the slightest desire to return to muggle Surrey. It's hard for me to see Scarhead's return to the muggle world as anything but meaningless. Though the superficial similarities you mention do certainly hold, and really must strike anyone who has read the two works, the deeper "sense" of the books, you seem to be saying, hold as well. Yet, the conclusion you posit for Scarhead doesn't partake of the deeper sense that we find in Nine- finger's. And really, Frodo's deepest wound is his failure to resist the ring at the ultimate moment. One could say it was, as in most literature, pride that wounded him deepest. Presumably the elves would counsel him on (and the green land grace him with etc.) humility. > J.K Rowling has already introduced a location where Lord Voldemort > could be destroyed by someone other than Harry Potter and has given a > hint as to how this could be achieved. Through Professor Dumbledore > she has even given a hint as to which character will fulfil the role > of Gollum and actually destroy Lord Voldemort. It would be reasonable > to suppose that they would die in the process. The element that doesn't match here, the missing variable, of course, is The Trinket. In order to draw this comparision further, perhaps it is necessary to define the role of Trinket, in LoTR, and what fulfills the role of the Trinket in HP. I cannot identify such an object, even in the most figurative way, in HP, unless it is magic itself. This, in fact, seems to be the subtext of your post - that magic itself is what needs to be destroyed. This leads to difficulties, however, in creating a meaningful conclusion. Magic isn't as "mysterious" in HP, generally, as it is in LoTR - it can be parsed, it is somewhat pedestrian (i.e. food prep etc.), it is ubiquitous in the witchwizard world, shared among many, it is legislated, it's a department of government etc. etc. If The Trinket is the desire for revenge... well, that's possibly more workable. I'll think about that. > The book ends as it began with Harry Potter in exile which seems to > be a natural and satisfying conclusion to the story, though this > ending would arguably be more C.S. Lewis than Tolkien. As I pointed out above, there will have to be more to this conclusion than Scarhead living in the muggle world for it to be satisfying. What deeper sense is there in this conclusion that would make it less conservative (politically, which Rowling is not) or in humanitarian terms? That is, what's really in it for both Scarhead and for we readers? Frodo's end, as I said, is deeply sad but very meaningful. Scarhead's end, as you have it, is purely unsatisfying, and meaningless. Perhaps you could add something about what is satisfying, in your view, to this conclusion. Dan From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 25 19:18:18 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 19:18:18 -0000 Subject: Explosion -Alternate (was: Attack on Hogwarts) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107667 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" > wrote: > > > > So far, of all the named places of significance in the WW, there's > > only one we haven't been to - Azkaban. Now that the Dementors > > have gone Harry and his chums could visit without having an attack > > of the vapours. > Carolyn: > Worth remembering something she says on her website about the > earliest versions of Chapter 1 of PS/SS: > > '[I had] the Potters living on a remote island, Hermione's family > living on the mainland, her father spotting something that resembles > an explosion out at sea and sailing out in a storm to find their > bodies in the ruins of their house.' > > She says she subsequently re-located the Potters to Godric's Hollow, > for plot reasons, but then goes on to say: > > 'I have come close to using a chapter very like this in PS, POA, > OOP, but here [ie Book 6] finally, it works...when you read it, just > know that it's been about thirteen years in the brewing.' > > It seems to me that the idea of an explosion on an island out at sea > could very well become an explosion at Azkaban. > > > Carolyn Asian_lovr2: I think Carolyn has brought up a very important point, although I'm not sure she realizes it. Notice that Carolyn posted her quote in two separate parts. Also, note that the new Book 6 chapter is 'very like this' rather than 'actaully is'. Here is my read on what JKR said. She first discussed one possible scenerio about how it all began. This one possible scenerio was disgarded as unworkable and changed to the Godric's Hollow version. As a completely separate statement, she goes on to say that at last she has found a way to use a chapter 'very like this'. The 'very like this' is not an island exploding and Hermione's parents rushing to help, that story line was discarded, not postponed; the chapter in question is the /further/ explanation of what happened the night Harry's parents died which is the night at Godric's Hollow. So my read is that JKR had two versions of events; one discarded, the other postponed. It is now finally in Book 6 that JKR is able to give us the account of Godric's Hollow events that she has not, so far, been able to work into the story. I'm not saying I'm absolutely right, just that this is how I interpreted what JKR said when I first read it, and until convinced otherwise, it's the interpretation I'm sticking with. Just a thought. Steve/asian_lovr2 From pcsgames at toltbbs.com Sun Jul 25 19:18:19 2004 From: pcsgames at toltbbs.com (Phil Vlasak) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 15:18:19 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] DADA Teacher in HBP (and Possibly book 7) In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20040725082519.017626d0@mail.comcast.net> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20040725082519.017626d0@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20040725151610.0333c5d0@mail.toltbbs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107668 > >Phil suggests: > >For book six DADA teacher? > >Nymphadora Tonks But she would enter the hall disguised as, are you ready? Suitably introduced by Albus Dumbledore "Welcome!" he said. "Welcome to a new year at Hogwarts! Before we begin our banquet, I would like to introduce our new Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher, Lord Voldemort." Smiles, Phil [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Jul 25 19:25:35 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 19:25:35 -0000 Subject: Why Snape doesn't have to be human In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107669 > Jim: > > >The clues that Lupin was a werewolf were much larger. > > > "K": > > But were they? Has anyone ever gone back and made a list of all the clues? Interesting question. Suppose JKR had decided to hold off revealing Lupin's condition for another few books--what kind of clues and counterclues might we have? Could they be refuted? Here is a list, omitting any after-the-fact revelations such as Lupin's first name, correlation of Lupin's illness to the full moon and his identification of the boggart with the full moon...I have included in [ ] material from later books that does not directly identify Lupin as a werewolf. Clues: -Lupin means 'wolf' -Lupin has a recurring illness -Lupin's boggart is round and silvery -Werewolves are mentioned in every book -Snape assigned a werewolf essay out of order -Lupin's taking that potion -Snape knows something about Lupin's illness -There has to be some reason why Lupin's so reticent about his past -Hermione knows something about Lupin's illness -[There are other disguised part-humans] Counterclues and potential arguments: -[Names aren't always significant *cough*Evans*cough*] -Many illnesses recur. JKR has said that Lupin represents people with disabilities. That would be undermined if he turned to be an undead with a purely imaginary condition. People would throw their books across the room. I prefer to think Lupin has (AIDS/MS/something of personal interest to the poster) There's no indication that the bouts of illness coincide with the full moon. -Harry thinks the boggart is a crystal ball. Lupin flees from Trelawney. [Maybe it's a prophecy orb?] -Snape was just trying to get even with the Gryffindors for laughting at boggart!Snape -Lupin is absent *during the day.* Werewolves transform at night. -If Lupin were a werewolf, torn and mangled bodies would be lying all over Hogwarts every full moon. There is nothing in folkore about potions to control lycanthropy -[Lupin touched silver--that *proves* he's not a werewolf!] -Lupin lost all his friends in the space of a few days and he has some kind of disease. That's enough to deal with without being a werewolf. -Why do we need another part-human? Hogwarts is getting to be a zoo! -If Hermione knew Lupin was a dangerous monster, she'd say. -If Snape knew Lupin was a dangerous monster, he'd say. -There's a werewolf registry. If Lupin were a werewolf, everyone would know. Refutations: -Names certainly are significant sometimes -Using an imaginary illness makes Lupin's plight universal and easier to identify with -JKR has shown she's not a purist, freely combining invented elements with popular, traditional and literary source material. In some of those sources, werewolves can touch silver. Besides, she can always alter the mythology to suit herself. There's no canon that silver is fatal to werewolves, that they only transform at night, or that lycanthropy can't be controlled by a potion. -Perhaps the highly integrated Hogwarts faculty is more representative of magical society as a whole than the rarified echelons of the Ministry and the posh shopping districts would suggest. Do we really think it's only Muggles that wizards had to marry to keep from dying out? -Hermione tends to discount extralegal possibilities--in PoA it had never occured to her that there could be unregistered Animagi. [While she guessed that Rita Skeeter might be an outlaw Animagus in GoF, in OOP she didn't consider that outlaw Centaurs might attack her. ] She always keeps her own counsel on what to tell the boys. -Snape keeps his own counsel too. -Registries can be incomplete. Or the adults might know about Lupin and not be willing to share the information with the students. There you have it--is there a compelling case that Lupin is a werewolf? Or would readers be justified in dismissing the hypothesis as arrant nonsense? You decide! I think the biggest clue in PoA is the werewolf essay. Need I point out that there's a vampire essay too? Pippin who modestly asserts that she could never surpass H/H shippers when it comes to imaginative interpretations of JKR's words *cough*very platonic friends*cough. ::hoists glass to Jim:: From vmonte at yahoo.com Sun Jul 25 19:35:57 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 19:35:57 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and The Lord of the Rings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107670 goldfoy wrote: Dumbledore she has even given a hint as to which character will fulfil the role of Gollum and actually destroy Lord Voldemort. It would be reasonable to suppose that they would die in the process. SSSusan: Okay, I'll bite. Care to provide further detail on this location & individual? vmonte now: Are you talking about Snape? I could see Snape as representing a Gollum "type." Gollum and Snape are given the chance to repent and be trusted, but they cannot let go of the past, and have too many problems to get over. They are also emotionally unstable, and like drug addicts unable to let go of what is clearly hurting them. Gollum & Snape are both attracted to the forces forces of evil. Gollum's problem revolves around the ring, which is evil. Snape's problem revolves around his past and the dark arts, which can also be used for evil. Gollum is not allowed to handle the ring for his own/everyone elses protection, and Snape is not allowed to teach DADA for his own/everyone elses protection. Snape has been given another chance by DD, and Gollum by Frodo. Gollum inadvertently saves Harry, did/will Snape also save Harry? Gollum and Snape are not good people but end up doing good in the long run, and both have many fans (including me). goldfoy: I believe that the parallels between the two works will be reinforced in Book 6 when Cornelius Fudge is replaced as Minister for Magic by someone who appears at first sight to be a most unlikely candidate for the job. When we first meet Denethor's replacement it as the disreputable, travel stained, Strider, not the noble born Aragorn. Again a superficial similarity but still worth noting. SSSusan: Again, care to let us know which unlikely candidate you're considering here? vmonte again: Are you talking about Arthur Weasley? If so, I agree. goldfoy: And don't forget, it's Sam who gets the girl, not Frodo SSSusan: Ron w/ Hermione, you mean?? vmonte responds: Yes, I think Ron & Hermione are a given. vivian From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 25 19:57:30 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 19:57:30 -0000 Subject: Snape questions for JK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107671 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > ...edited... > > > Laura wrote: > > And the killer question...... > > 4) Is there any truth in the rumours that Snape loved Lily? > > Neri: > 4a) "Yes, there is". VERY exiting, but VERY unlikely she'll tell us > if it's true. > > 4b) "Erm... I don't think so". The good ship LOLLIPOPS is sunk. The > poor survivors will be extremely miffed, but there will be suddenly > much more room in TBAY for alternative theories. > > 4c) "Sorry, but on principle I don't discuss rumors about people's > love life" or any evasion of this kind. This means it might be > important. LOLLIPOPS gets a moderate boost. > > 4d) "Keep reading, and you'll find out". Not very likely IMO, but > LOLLIPOPS will get a BIG boost. > > > My conclusion: 4 is easily the best the four questions. Any possible > answer I can think of will tell us something interesting. 3 would be > my second choice. > > Neri, Asian_lovr2: The thing I don't like about this question, even though it is wisely worded with a degree of vagueness, is that it is still blunt. I asks for a cold hard fact as a response. Personally, I would be inclined to ask if there were other instances when Lily came to Snape's defense. If 'Snape's Worst Memory' was an isolated incidence then that weakens any connection between Snape and Lily. If there were other incidences, then that re-enforces the possibility that Snape harbored a hidden fondness for Lily. Snape doesn't necessarily have to be IN love with her, he just needs a fondness and appreciation of her compassion and consideration for him. Just a thought. Steve/asian_lovr2 From vmonte at yahoo.com Sun Jul 25 20:08:45 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 20:08:45 -0000 Subject: Why Snape doesn't have to be human In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107672 Pippin wrote: Counterclues and potential arguments: -[Names aren't always significant *cough*Evans*cough*] -Many illnesses recur. JKR has said that Lupin represents people with disabilities. That would be undermined if he turned to be an undead with a purely imaginary condition. People would throw their books across the room. I prefer to think Lupin has (AIDS/MS/something of personal interest to the poster) There's no indication that the bouts of illness coincide with the full moon. -Harry thinks the boggart is a crystal ball. Lupin flees from Trelawney. [Maybe it's a prophecy orb?] -Snape was just trying to get even with the Gryffindors for laughting at boggart!Snape -Lupin is absent *during the day.* Werewolves transform at night. -If Lupin were a werewolf, torn and mangled bodies would be lying all over Hogwarts every full moon. There is nothing in folkore about potions to control lycanthropy -[Lupin touched silver--that *proves* he's not a werewolf!] -Lupin lost all his friends in the space of a few days and he has some kind of disease. That's enough to deal with without being a werewolf. -Why do we need another part-human? Hogwarts is getting to be a zoo! -If Hermione knew Lupin was a dangerous monster, she'd say. -If Snape knew Lupin was a dangerous monster, he'd say. -There's a werewolf registry. If Lupin were a werewolf, everyone would know. vmonte responds: What a great post Pippin. I think you're absolutely right, and it makes me wonder about all the vampire references. You know there are people who repress their true nature to a point where they deny the nature exists in themselves. They also despise anyone else with a similar nonconformity. Did you ever read the play Tea & Sympathy? It's a story about a young boy who is ostracized at school and labeled a homosexual. At the end of the play it turns out that the boy is not, but you get the feeling that the school master that attacks him at every chance during the school year (and who happens to be cold and indifferent to his wife) is the real repressed homosexual. I'm not implying that either Snape or Lupin are gay (even if they were I would not care--I like both characters). What I'm suggesting is that Snape may have a nonconformity as well, but he may just be denying his true nature. This "repression" could blow-up in Snape's face. vivian From garybec101 at comcast.net Sun Jul 25 20:14:27 2004 From: garybec101 at comcast.net (garybec) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 20:14:27 -0000 Subject: Snape questions for JK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107673 "laura" Thanks everyone who posted for your advice on what to ask JKR, I > really needed it! > > Well, I've made a *huge* list of Snape-related questions I'd love to > know the answers to (filled both sides of 2 A4 pages), spent hours > trawling through previous posts here, and of course, the books > themselves. I've put all the questions into categories of 'most > yearning to know' and 'most likely to be answered', crossed them off > one by one, and <> I'm down to the last four. They're not > worded perfectly but I'm allowing for the fact that I'll probably get > tongue-tied anyway, and I want to get straight to the point. So here > goes, in no real order: > > 1) Can you give us any indication as to how Snape finds out what > Voldemort is saying to his Deatheaters? > > 2) Why DOES Snape call Voldemort 'the Dark Lord'? > > 3) Can you tell us anything about Snape's family, for example, if > they're 'pure-bloods' or if he's related to any of the characters > we've met so far? > > And the killer question..... > > 4) Is there any truth in the rumours that Snape loved Lily? > > So there you have it, none of these questions are final so > suggestions would be very welcome. I just hope to god I don't get > tongue-tied at the crucial moment! > > Laura* Becki writes; Hi Laura and a huge congratulations on your good fortune. I have a burning question but it is not Snape-related, (at least I don't think so...<;)> I would like to know if the HBP is a character that we already know or if it will be a new one? I think she could give an answer to that without giving too much away. Also, some advice when you go. Write down all of your potential questions, in order (best to worse), and have a ton of them, you may not get to ask one until the end and many of them could have already been asked, (in some form or another). Make sure you have something to write with and some paper so you can take notes to keep everything in perspective. Also tell her *HI* from all of your buddy's at HPfGU and we are waiting breathlessly for her answers. Cheers, Becki From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Sun Jul 25 20:25:07 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (Agnes Raggett) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 21:25:07 +0100 Subject: PS quiz Message-ID: <006401c47285$953f7fc0$2fd487d9@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 107674 I love compiling quizzes and thought I'd knock one up for this group. Any constructive citicism is appreciated. Either email answers to me directly or put up on the board. If I get enough response I'll do one for each book. Please note that this quiz is derived from the BOOK. NOTHING and I repeat NOTHING is taken from the film. All questions are related to The Philosopher's Stone. Philosopher's Stone Quiz 1 What is the name of the company that Mr Dursley works for? And what do they make? 2 What type of cat is McGonagall's anamagi? 3 Above which knee is Dumbledore's 'London Underground Map' scar? 4 What did Mrs Figg's house smell of, according to Harry? 5 If Harry hadn't gone to Hogwarts, which school would he have attended? 6 What colour is the Hogwart's wax seal? 7 Why did the Dursley's move Harry from the cupboard under the stairs to Dudley's spare bedroom? 8 Which four animals represent the four school houses? 9 For how many days did Hogwarts try to send Harry his admission letter? 10 What did Hagrid cook for Harry in the hut on the rock? 11 On which date is the anniversary of James and Lily Potter's death? 12 How many times does Hagrid tap the wall in the yard of the Leaky Cauldron to get the entrance to Diagon Alley? 13 How many Sickles to a Galleon? How many Knuts to a Sickle? 14 When was 'Ollivanders' established? 15 What wood is Harry's wand made of? 16 To which school house did Arthur and Molly Weasley belong? 17 Into which house was Hannah Abbot sorted? 18 How did Neville's family know that he wasn't 'all muggle'? 19 What was Harry's first password to enter the Gryffindor common room? 20 How many staircases are there in Hogwarts? 21 Fill in the missing words of Snape's opening speech to Harry's potion class. "I can teach you to ....... fame, ....... glory, even ......... death. 22 What do you get if you add powdered root of asphodel to an infusion of wormwood? 23 What is a bezoar? 24 What is the difference between monkshood and wolfs bane? 25 Which two lessons did Gryffindor have with Slytherin (remember this is Philosopher's Stone)? 26 Harry was the youngest Quidditch house player in how long? 27 How many balls are used in a game of Quidditch? 28 How many players are there on a Quidditch team? 29 What is the wrist action and incantation to make objects fly? 30 Who was it that informed everyone in the Great Hall about the troll at Halloween? 31 Where did Harry first go to on the debut outing of his invisibility cloak? 32 And what did he end up discovering? 33 Where did Harry, Ron and Hermione discover the link between Nicolas Flamel and the package that Fluffy was hiding? 34 Who were Gryffindor playing when Snape refereed their Quidditch match? 35 Where did Harry 'overhear' Snape threatening Quirrell? 36 What type of dragon was Norbert? 37 In which year was Dragon-breeding outlawed by the Warlock's Convention? 38 With whom (students) did Harry have detention in the forest? 39 Which centaur rescued Harry from 'the creature drinking the unicorn's blood'? 40 Which was Harry's last exam of his first year? 41 Which instrument did Harry, Ron and Hermione (HRH) use to send Fluffy to sleep and where did they get it from? 42 How did HRH get out of the Devil's Snare? 43 What colour were the wings of the charmed key that opened the door to the 'chess room'? 44 In the magical chess game, which side were HRH playing on, white or black? 45 What was Quirrell's task? 46 How many bottles were there to choose from in Snape's test? 47 Why didn't Hermione follow Harry to the last task? 48 According to Dumbledore, to those of a well-organised mind, what is death? 49 Who gave Harry the photo album of his family? 50 How many points did Neville win for Gryffindor because he stood up to HRH? From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Jul 25 20:36:34 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 20:36:34 -0000 Subject: Vanquishing Voldemort - The Ultimate Punishment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107675 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: Steve: > You are missing the key point. > > The Ultimate Punishment for Voldemort - To be immortal, STRIPPED OF > HIS POWERS, and imprisoned. > > I assumed people would understand what I meant by 'stripped of his > powers', but in hindsight, I didn't make that part clear. There is are > speculative endings in which the final cataclysmic event that allows > Harry to defeat Voldemort, leaves Harry and/or Voldemort as muggles. > That is one or both of them have completely lost their magical powers. > Some even speculate that Harry will realize in advance, that the price > of defeating Voldemort is the loss of his own magical power. > > So, my premise is not that the court magically removes his powers > before sending Voldemort to prison, but that the loss of his power are > a complete and irreversable part of attempting to kill Harry again. In > this case, he is not going to rebuild himself while in prison. > > This also assumes that despite his reference to 'embracing mortatlity > again' that Voldemort now has the same body that he had before he > tried to kill Harry the first time. Which means while he is not > prefectly corporally immortal, by most standards, he can not be killed. > > Since, Voldemort has his snake-like body, and not Tom Riddles handsome > body, Voldemort did not revert back to his original mortal body, but > back to his pre-Harry encounter semi-immortal body. > > If all my suppositions fall into place, then Voldemort is screwed, he > is trapped in an ever deteriorating physical body, but at the same > time can never suffer true death, and because I say so, he can't cause > his physical body to die (like jump of the roof or hang himself) and > continue on as Vapormort. His magical powers have been completely > lost, so even as Vapormort, he could never recover. > > Think of the irony, Voldemort wants immortality, he sees it as his > greatest achievement, and in the end, as I always knew it would, that > immortality becomes his greatest curse. ...sweet delicious heavenly > irony ...I love it. Geoff: Those of you who follow my ramblings will know that I am a Tolkien fan as well as a supporter of Harry. This thread took my mind to "The Silmarillion" and the fate of Melkor/Morgoth who, admittedly, was immortal from the beginning. In the chapter "Of the Voyage of Earendil", the host of the Valar advance on Morgoth to destroy his fortress of Thangorodrim. "There Morgoth stood at last at bay and yet unvaliant. He fled into the deepest of his mines and sued for peace and pardon; but his feet were hewn from under him and he was hurled upon his face. Then he was bound with the chain Angainor which he had worn aforetime and his iron crown they beat into a collar for his neck and his head was bowed upon his knees....." and later "But Morgoth himself the Valar thrust through the Door of Night beyond the Walls of the World into the Timeless Void; and a guard is set for ever on these walls...." Voldemort is not Morgoth and the Wizarding World are not the Valar but there seem to be places where both accounts touch base. Re- reading it after a long gap, my attention focussed on the Door of Night and the Timeless Void and my thought moved to the archway in the Ministry of Magic. Also Morgoth is stripped of all his powers so that he is in the same situation as that outlined by Steve. Are there parallels here?Are there places perhaps beyond the archway where Voldemort couldbe confined? Trapped in a body, wandless, without allies.... Anybody also remember the ennui of the member of the Q continuum on Star Trek who wanted to commit suicide and found immortality anything but a gift? Geoff Who tomorrow celebrates 1 year and 930 posts on HPFGU. Could I have put this time to better use I ask myself? From drliss at comcast.net Sun Jul 25 20:42:29 2004 From: drliss at comcast.net (Lissa Hess) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 16:42:29 -0400 Subject: How Should Harry Deal with Snape? In-Reply-To: <1090783555.10638.54722.m5@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20040725155240.01758e40@mail.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 107676 At 07:25 PM 7/25/2004 +0000, you wrote: > Alla: > >Yes, why, why indeed? Why the child expects the teacher to treat him >reasonably? Why the reader expects the character not to hold the >grudge against another character who is innocent of the wrongdoings ? > >The fact that Snape is constant in his hatred right now, does not >mean that this will be his function in the narrative till the end. I >firmly believe that JKR intends for Snape to change, to redeem >himself at the end. > >I don't believe that he will be the same when the books are finished. Lissa: I totally agree that Snape will change... a bit. I don't think he'll ever become a nice loving person who keeps fluffy bunnies for pets and tells bedtime stories. But I do think he and Harry will develop a grudging respect for each other. However, I don't think it will be Snape OR Harry that makes the first move. Harry is too emotional right now, and the poor kid has enough on his plate. His hatred for Snape is an outlet, because right this minute (end OotP) if he stops hating Snape he might finally have to admit that he and Sirius both had a role in Sirius's death. He has so much to cope with, a little venting hatred at Snape will be a good relief valve. And Snape may be feeling exactly the same way- especially now that he doesn't have Sirius to taunt anymore. (In fact, I'd be willing to bet Snape places the blame for Sirius's death squarely on Harry, although I doubt he's so upset about it.) Snape ain't about to reach out to Harry. The OotP and anything related to that is all about defeating Voldemort, not male bonding and talking about emotions. Uh-uh. As for them being forced to work together right now, the only avenue for that is occlumancy, and Dumbledore's even admitted that wasn't one of his best ideas. But if they're going to get together on something, that would be it (at least for book 6.) I'm guessing that they will require a mediator- someone else that Harry trusts to make the first step. The logical choice is Lupin. However, without James and Sirius around, Lupin might actually stand a chance at talking to Snape. In the scene where Harry tells Sirius and Lupin Snape's stopped giving him lessons, Lupin insists that he be the one to talk to Snape. Now, I know I have my theories about these two, but even ignoring any former-friendship type theories, consider that Lupin IS the most forgiving and most patient- not only of the Mauraders, but of the adults. (Well, Mr. Weasley could fall into that category, but I think he's got bigger fish to fry.) And I think Lupin tends to be more of a quick thinker and a big picture kind of person- that's what made it possible for him to react quickly and restrain Harry when Sirius fell through the veil, even though he had to be ready to scream at that point. Another interesting possibility is Ron or Hermione, although I tend to favor Ron. Snape has never been excessively cruel to Ron- not like he is to Hermione or Harry. Another Weasley brother starting to work with Snape could be appealing, too. I have to admit, if I were Harry I'd probably act more like Neville, and just try to fly under Snape's radar. But that's totally me, and I'm definitely not that much like Harry. But he'd be smart to tone it down... especially if he somehow (how???) managed to squeak an O out of his potions O.W.L. Liss From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sun Jul 25 20:42:47 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 20:42:47 -0000 Subject: Why Snape doesn't have to be human In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107677 > > Jim: > > > > >The clues that Lupin was a werewolf were much larger. > > > > > > "K": > > > > But were they? Has anyone ever gone back and made a list of > all the clues? > > Pippin: > > Interesting question. Suppose JKR had decided to hold off > revealing Lupin's condition for another few books--what kind of > clues and counterclues might we have? Could they be refuted? > > Here is a list > > > There you have it--is there a compelling case that Lupin is a > werewolf? Or would readers be justified in dismissing the > hypothesis as arrant nonsense? You decide! > > I think the biggest clue in PoA is the werewolf essay. Need I point > out that there's a vampire essay too? > > Pippin > who modestly asserts that she could never surpass H/H > shippers when it comes to imaginative interpretations of JKR's > words *cough*very platonic friends*cough. ::hoists glass to Jim:: Neri: May I offer you a cough drop, Pippin? I was very impressed by your arguments, and I agree with all of them (truly) but you forgot the strongest point of canon against Lupin being a werewolf: someone asked JKR if he has any connection with werewolves and she answered: "Erm... I don't think so". Neri ::tips hat to Pippin and H/H shippers alike:: From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sun Jul 25 20:50:53 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 20:50:53 -0000 Subject: How should Harry deal with Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107678 Neri originally wrote: > OK, we are all here much wiser than Harry, and if we were in his place, we would have known EXACTLY how to deal with Snape. > Does anybody have an idea, how should Harry deal with Snape?< Pippin answered: Well, he should stop lying and sassing back, because that is the behavior that Snape interprets as arrogant. *We* know Harry only does it because he's insecure and frightened of Snape, and the more Snape insults him and accuses him, the more insecure and frightened Harry becomes. But Snape doesn't dig that, and maybe never will. It doesn't really matter whether the core reason for that misunderstanding is rage, social ineptitude, prejudice or sheer cussedness--whatever it is, Harry didn't make Snape the way he is and isn't responsible for making him change the way he thinks -- on the other hand he can, by modifying his own behavior, hope to change the tenor of their interactions. Neri again: At last someone with concrete suggestions! Pippin: Harry made a start at this at the end of OOP, when he freely admitted he was about to curse Malfoy instead of lying about it. Neri: Actually, Harry WAS lying just then, and also cussing back and behaving just like James. The truth (in the proper tone of respect) would have been: "I apologize, Professor. They tried to curse me because I exposed their DE fathers but I drew first. I'm glad you arrived at the scene to prevent any violence, Sir". I wonder what would this answer have achieved. Pippin: And nothing very terrible happened, did it? He lost a few points. The worst that could have happened was a detention, and Snape's detentions, while not much fun, are certainly not in a class with Umbridge's. Neri: I see. So the best that Harry can hope for if he learns how to handle Snape is just losing points and getting detentions. It's not a very attractive offer, you know. Pippin: Now, if only, the next time Snape insults him, Harry could bring himself to say "You could be right about that, Sir." I've stopped bullying bosses in their tracks with that one. Neri: I'd strongly advice not to use the word "could". I shudder to think what Snape would have to say about Harry allowing that he "could" be right. Pippin: Of course it probably won't happen next time, because the Harry Snape conflict won't be resolved until Book Seven. But as Jim has challenged us to imagine how it would come about, here's my guess. Harry knows that lying, sassing back, and matching insults aren't constructive behaviors, but his attitude right now is "I only have to behave myself if Snape does." What could convince him to go the extra mile? JKR has said that Harry's glasses are the key to his vulnerability. What would happen if Harry lost his glasses at some critical moment and had, not only to trust Snape, but to avoid the behaviors that have confirmed Snape's poor opinion of him? Neri: Tell me sincerely, if you were in a very vulnerable position, together with a person who had already took advantage of your vulnerabilities several times in the past (and the vulnerabilities of several of your best friends as well), would you trust him? OTOH, Harry is not like the rest of us. He is a Gryffindor and a hero, so he might just be crazy enough to do what you suggest. There is still hope. Neri From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Sun Jul 25 21:12:22 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 21:12:22 -0000 Subject: Explosion -Alternate (was: Attack on Hogwarts) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107679 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > I think Carolyn has brought up a very important point, although I'm > not sure she realizes it. Notice that Carolyn posted her quote in two > separate parts. Also, note that the new Book 6 chapter is 'very like > this' rather than 'actaully is'. > > Here is my read on what JKR said. She first discussed one possible > scenerio about how it all began. This one possible scenerio was > disgarded as unworkable and changed to the Godric's Hollow version. > > As a completely separate statement, she goes on to say that at last > she has found a way to use a chapter 'very like this'. The 'very like > this' is not an island exploding and Hermione's parents rushing to > help, that story line was discarded, not postponed; the chapter in > question is the /further/ explanation of what happened the night > Harry's parents died which is the night at Godric's Hollow. > Carolyn: Erm, yes Steve, this is what JKR actually says on her site: that this chapter that she has been waiting to use will explain more back history about events at Godric's Hollow. If you remember, she discusses how she first had a muggle betray the Potters, then a character called Pyrites, but eventually settled on Pettigrew. Her actual words are: 'The trouble with that chapter was (as so often in a Harry Potter book), I had to give a lot of information yet conceal even more.' Conclusive evidence, if anyone still needs it, that insisting on surface readings of these books is a mistake. Kneasy was just speculating that we had yet to visit Azkaban, and I was reminded of that exploding island scenario. Just because the idea didn't get used in the original context (ie in connection with the Potters' deaths), doesn't mean she might not recycle it elsewhere. However, Kneasy makes the reasonable point that Azkaban is supposed to be a long way offshore, so it would be difficult to see an explosion from the mainland. Assuming she has got a grip on her distances here (remember, maths just isn't one of her strong points), then maybe she has already re-used the 'remote island' scenario in Chapter 3 of PS/SS, where Hagrid comes to collect Harry from the hut- on-the-rock. Just another thought. Carolyn From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Jul 25 21:25:48 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 21:25:48 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and The Lord of the Rings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107680 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dan" wrote: Dan: > In LoTR Frodo's fate is deeply sad, but not > meaningless - in fact, it holds the deepest meaning possible - Frodo > is recognized abroad (out of The Shire). He WANTS to return to the > Shire. Geoff: It's a curious coincidence that this thread arose at almost the same time as I picked up a thread which began several days ago while I was away on holiday and to which I added my two pennyworth in message 107675. I'm not sure whether this has any correlation to Harry but I do not see Frodo's fate as deeply sad. Yes, he has to leave the Shire because his wounds run too deep both physically and emotionally but he goes to Valinor to be with the Elves and, as an Elf-friend, what could be better? Also, Tolkien indicates in his Tale of Years in the Appendix, that he is later followed by Sam and by Gimli. There are a number of differences in addition to parallels. Sauron is continuing in the tradition of his master Melkor in wanting to see the destruction of men but he is not specifically seeking Frodo; he merely knows of Hobbits and the Shire. Voldemort wants to be the Master of all, but has concentrated his hate in recent years on Harry and is obsessed with revenge. Harry, although meeting the equivalents of the Nazgul and Shelob (Dementors and Aragog), has not received any physical injury from them. He is not trying to destroy an object of power; he is attempting to stop a person of power - the dilemma being how to do it without descending into evil himself (an echo here of Saruman and possibly Boromir). So, I stand by my oft expressed view that Harry is an everyman, representative (to my view) of a Christian on the pilgrimage of life. Whatever transpires en route, there is an aim and a goal to which he needs to work without either being seduced by the lures of the evil personified in Voldemort or being overcome by the magnitude of the task. I shall don my well-worn and battle-dinted tin hat and take up a defensive position behind the battlements..... From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Jul 25 21:25:52 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 21:25:52 -0000 Subject: Theory on James and Lilly Potters occupations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107681 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brent" wrote: > I had an idea along these lines awhile back and I was tring to find > some quotes and such. > > I was thinking since Lily is mentioned as having a wand good for > charms and knowing the ancient charm that saved Harry so may have > been a Charms teacher. In book 6 several of the teachers say how > long they have been teaching but I don't see a mention for Flitwick > you just assume he has been there for years. Potioncat: Flitwick is the giving the written DADA O.W.L. exam in Snape's Worst Memory. So we can presume he was a teacher, but not of DADA. We are told that Snape applied for DADA but was given Potions. That can either mean that 2 positions were open, or that the Potions teacher moved into the DADA job. By the way, I snipped it, but I'll add this. One character in the books refers to DADA being jinxed. I think that is after Lockhart. The idea being that Quirrell dies, then Lockhart is injured. I don't think the position being jinxed is supposed to be a WW given. From snow15145 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 25 21:31:20 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 21:31:20 -0000 Subject: Theory on James and Lilly Potters occupations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107682 Kneasy: Bit of an exaggeration there. According to Ollivander Lily's wand was - "Nice wand for charm work," while James was "excellent for transfiguration," which in my reading means 'best suited for' rather than exceptional. Snow: Busted on a technical non-canon knock out, TNCKO. I actually reached for the book to reference but decided to use the same wording that the person I was replying to had used. The main jest of what I was trying to point out was that even though the wand chooses the wizard somewhat like the sorting hat choosing the house, wouldn't automatically foretell what subject they may have chosen to teach. James didn't like the dark arts so why then would he teach it especially when his wand is more suited for transfiguration, if he were the dada teacher? My assumption on this would be; not that he liked it or was suited for it but defense against it. Kneasy: I think that the reason DD took on Snape was for the same reason that he took on Trelawney - part protection, partly to keep a close eye on him. Don't forget, he'd been working for the Order for 2 years or more by that time. Snow Puzzled: Who worked for the Order for two years? I am a bit confused, if you could elaborate on this please? As far as DD's reasoning for hiring anyone, like Hagrid who loves man eating creatures or Lupin that could possibly be a werewolf threat to Quirrell who ended up aiding and a bedding the enemy, I feel that DD is of the mind; keep your friends close but your enemies closer. If these people are inside the castle not only does DD have the portraits watchful eyes for help but the restrictions on the castle itself puts anyone in it at a disadvantage, no apparating and such. Kneasy: The Potters could have been teachers at Hogwarts but I think it unlikely that Harry could have been there for 5 years and have no-one mention the fact. I can't see a reason why it should be kept a secret. Minerva'd liked them as students and they'd been great favourites of Hagrid - and he's never been able to keep his mouth shut. What would be the point of keeping it from Harry? Snow: This is a good point especially in the know-it-all Hermione's case. As to why keep it a secret from Harry, all I can say to that is why keep the prophecy from Harry? How did that help or hurt? The kid has already been through more than that. In fact Harry should have figured out by now that Voldemort wants him dead (being as he defied him 4 times) and DD has allowed (in SS) for Harry to deal with him. So what was the prophecy but mere wording of what he should have already realized. Why keep the prophecy from Harry for five years is equivalent to why would no one have told Harry that one of his parents worked at Hogwarts? Neither one makes sense to me but if the prophecy could be kept from Harry why not the simple fact that James was a teacher? A lot of people, close to Harry, knew about the prophecy and it was not revealed to Harry. OOP The Lost Prophecy pg. 829 US "And then you saw Rookwood, who worked in the Department of Mysteries before his arrest, telling Voldemort what we had known all along-" The Order was well aware of the prophecy or at least the portion of it that Voldemort knew. DD knew that there had once been a leek in the Order so I would not think that he would have divulged the entire prophecy but there is certainty that the Order members were well aware of it, by the "what (we) had known all along" statement, and yet not even Sirius or Lupin, let alone Hagrid, told Harry. There are instances, in hindsight, where JKR has neglected to tell, allow Harry and/or the reader to know or ask something. All the times that people on this list have asked why didn't Harry ask where his parents got their money or why didn't he ask anything at all about them. Why didn't Harry ask? The simplicity of it is that it would enhance the story too much or give something away. James' occupation and Lily's "have been" purposely kept from not only Harry but also the reader, so no matter whether James was a teacher or an Auror or a lazy bum we still don't know. In the end, the "why didn't anyone tell Harry" is still the why? Whatever it is that James did, I will assume that it must be of importance to have kept it a secret for so long. Snow From cincimaelder at yahoo.com Sun Jul 25 23:23:11 2004 From: cincimaelder at yahoo.com (cincimaelder) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 23:23:11 -0000 Subject: JKR writing YA lit (was: Most burning Snape question?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107683 > SSSusan again: > Do you think, Cynthia (or others), that JKR set out from the get-go > with the idea of having her texts mature & deepen with each "year" > of the series or that she made the decision to do so in response to > her readership? I'm inclined towards the first view, but I'm > curious if that's what you meant. > > Siriusly Snapey Susan MAE here: I think she did. Because in addition to HP being "an everyman, representative (to my view) of a Christian on the pilgrimage of life." (As another poster put it, and that I fully agree with), it is a coming of age story. Harry starts out as a child and we see him grow and go through adolescence in the books. I've heard people say what terrible people Sirius and James were, but I disagree. I think that Harry, being a 15 year old, learns that his parents aren't perfect, they are in fact, human like the rest of us. This is very typical of a teens struggles at this age, and necessary for an understanding of the world. At first Harry is angry and hurt that they have flaws, but understands more by the end of the book. He laughs to himself when Ron ruffles his hair, reminding him of James. I think this aging of the books, and Harry, are vital to the books and that they have always been planned that way. From cincimaelder at yahoo.com Sun Jul 25 23:34:52 2004 From: cincimaelder at yahoo.com (cincimaelder) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 23:34:52 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and The Lord of the Rings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107684 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > goldfoy wrote: > > Dumbledore she has even given a hint as to which character will > fulfil the role of Gollum and actually destroy Lord Voldemort. It > would be reasonable to suppose that they would die in the process. > > SSSusan: > Okay, I'll bite. Care to provide further detail on this location & > individual? > MAE here: I remember reading in an interview somewhere that JKR said that she read LotR as a teen and really wasn't a lover of fantasy reading. I can't imagine that she would mirror the story so closely that it would have the same ending when she hadn't read it for a long time. I also agree that if Harry had to become a muggle at the conclusion it would be a great disappointment for Harry and the readers. Harry becoming a muggle is not the same as Frodo's fate. Frodo was content in his fate, given all that he had seen, he would suffer too much in a normal mortal life. From fionap19 at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 25 19:05:02 2004 From: fionap19 at yahoo.co.uk (Fiona) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 19:05:02 -0000 Subject: half blood prince Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107685 What do we know for sure about the HBP? JKR has confirmed its neither Harry nor Voldemort. JKR said that it had been the working title for book two. My theory is that the HBP is Gilderoy Lockhart. JKR brought him back in book five, and it is possible to argue that Gilderoy relates to a "Gilded King" and he's certainly foppish enough to be like some Prince, well divorced from reality. Just a theory.... any opinions? From jenniferstmatt at yahoo.com Sun Jul 25 19:13:12 2004 From: jenniferstmatt at yahoo.com (jenniferstmatt) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 19:13:12 -0000 Subject: JKR writing YA lit (was: Most burning Snape question?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107686 > SSSusan writes: > Do you think, Cynthia (or others), that JKR set out from the get-go > with the idea of having her texts mature & deepen with each "year" > of the series or that she made the decision to do so in response to > her readership? I'm inclined towards the first view, but I'm > curious if that's what you meant. > Jenn: SSSusan, I have often wondered that myself. Plot and content have corresponded with the age progression of the child characters, and I have always thought that was one of the great things about the series - an attribute of JKR's talent. So I believe it is intentional, within the definition of creative intention. And another good question for JKR. From desastreuse at yahoo.com Sun Jul 25 19:33:06 2004 From: desastreuse at yahoo.com (desastreuse) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 19:33:06 -0000 Subject: How should Harry deal with Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107687 Pippin writes: > > JKR has said that Harry's glasses are the key to his > vulnerability. What would happen if Harry lost his glasses at > some critical moment and had, not only to trust Snape, but to > avoid the behaviors that have confirmed Snape's poor opinion of > him? > Cynthia responds: Very interesting comments. I was struck, particularly, by the reference to Harry's glasses near the end of your post. The symbolism of corrected vision/flawed vision should not be overlooked when considering Harry's shortcomings and vulnerabilities. Harry's "sight" is significantly flawed, both figuratively and literally. We see this in his decompensation at the end of OOP during which time he fixates his anger, grief, and frustration on an undeserving Snape. His inability to see Snape clearly at this point compounded historically with his rather clouded vision at other times recalls the trope of blindness and obstructed vision in Golding's Lord of the Flies. Indeed, it would be an interesting development to have Harry dependent at some point upon Snape's vision. During this plot point Harry not only must trust Snape for the first time but also develop a clarity in his own vision of Snape, and in so doing, simultaneously develop insight into his own flawed outlook. From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sun Jul 25 19:41:13 2004 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 12:41:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How should Harry deal with Snape? (was: Why Snape doesn't have to be human) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040725194113.66592.qmail@web50104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107688 > Neri: > But what should Harry do, how > should he behave, in order to get from Snape a reasonable > treatment? What can Harry do that would actually work? He should go to Snape and say, "I apologize for poking my head into your pensieve. It was an invasion of your privacy and I shouldn't have done it. I particularly regret it because it showed me a side of my father that I never expected to see. I'm sorry he did that." That's it. Four sentences that would totally confound Snape and up-end a lot of his preconceived notions about Harry. I'm sure the main reason that Snape put the memories in the pensieve before each lesson was because he was convinced that after his brawl with Sirius at Christmas time that Harry knew all about the memory anyway. After all, he'd heard Sirius call Snape "Snivellus" (btw, anyone else think for a minute when they first read it that it was some kind of a spell?) and I'm sure he thought that as soon as Snape left the house that Harry had got the whole story from Sirius about how they used to call him that at school, etc. etc. It would also explain why Snape was so particularly prickly about being addressed as "sir" during the lessons. He was on alert for any signs of snide behaviour from Harry. _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Jul 26 00:21:10 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 00:21:10 -0000 Subject: Why Snape doesn't have to be human In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107689 > Neri: > > May I offer you a cough drop, Pippin? > > I was very impressed by your arguments, and I agree with all of them > (truly) but you forgot the strongest point of canon against Lupin being a werewolf: someone asked JKR if he has any connection with werewolves and she answered: "Erm... I don't think so".< Erm, well, strictly speaking she couldn't say that, because in OOP we see that Lupin has a link , "a means of connection" according to my ancient Shorter Oxford, to another werewolf. We don't know whether there is any means of connection from vampire!Snape to vampires. If not, then JKR could be telling the truth according to British usage. The Oxford does not mention "link" meaning "relationship" as my American dictionary does. Pippin keeping her pecker up ( "courage,resolution. Chiefly in phr.*to keep one's p.up*. 1848") From desastreuse at yahoo.com Sun Jul 25 20:02:52 2004 From: desastreuse at yahoo.com (desastreuse) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 20:02:52 -0000 Subject: JKR writing YA lit (was: Most burning Snape question?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107690 SSSusan again: > Do you think, Cynthia (or others), that JKR set out from the get-go > with the idea of having her texts mature & deepen with each "year" > of the series or that she made the decision to do so in response to > her readership? I'm inclined towards the first view, but I'm > curious if that's what you meant. Cynthia responds: I tend to suspect she set out from the beginning with the idea of maturation and complexity in general. A writer who decides early on that s/he wishes to write a multi-volume arc over a specific period of time during which the YA protagonist will move from childhood to adulthood must make a conscious decision to acknowledge that the first YA reader ages as well--and that fact demands to be dealt with respectfully and realistically. Otherwise, the arc will fail. JKR realizes that Harry's world, his role and interactions within the emotional landscape she creates, must simultaneously challenge Harry as he ages as well as JKR's first crop of YA aging readers in real time. That said, there will be a natural shift in her readership as this change occurs (e.g., the first readers of PS/SS who have been along for the ride right along). New readers who come to the story after the arc is finished and published will find an entry point at roughly the same age; however, there is no corresponding aging of character and reader, so the pacing of readership ages is lost. By the same token, however, she bears no responsibility for this; she is writing for the aging reader *now*, not the reader of the future. From cmw652 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 25 20:11:51 2004 From: cmw652 at yahoo.com (cmw652) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 20:11:51 -0000 Subject: Defending Percy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107691 Hello everyone- this is my first post, and already I am disagreeing with people (ahh, sorry about that Willy and Pilotjb3).I promise to not always disagree...Below is what you've said so far Willy: "Anyway, has anybody considered that Percy may be Dumbledor's spy inside the ministry? And that Percy broke with his family as cover? Too obvious? Just my one gnuts worth." Luckdragon64 writes: "This is always a possibility; but I'm sure Dumbledore must know many older and wiser wizards who could spy inside the ministry without causing the pain and anguish the Weasley's must be going through due to Percy's defection." DuffyPoo: Besides, DD already has Aruthur Weasley, Tonks, Kingsley Shacklebolt (and possibly others) as spies at the ministry. Older, and probably more dependable, than Percy. Pilotjb3 Writes: All true but no one on the inside right next to the MOM himself. What better way to earn his trust than make him think you have given up everything for him? Okay. While I would really love to think that Percy actually had some greater purpose for being a jerk, there are some things that just don't seem to play with this scenario. The Weasley family knows about the order (kids included) and Dumbledore clearly trusts them. If Percy were faking an estrangement as a cover to members of the ministry, why wouldn't the rest of the Weasleys be in on it? They can clearly keep a secret. And they already know the truth about other wizards in the ministry working for their cause- Kingsley Shacklebolt was in charge of the search for Sirius. If Dumbledore trusts them to know the truth about Kinglsey, why not the truth about their own son? Besides, the stress of Percy disowning his family has been huge on Mrs. Weasley, and I just can't see Dumbledore doing that to her. There really is no reason for the Weasleys to be out of the loop on this one if it is true. They could easily play along. The other thing that doesn't quite fit into this scenario for me is the letter Percy sends to Ron at night. If this was another plot to convince the ministry that Percy was 100 percent on their side, why wouldn't he send it when someone from the ministry could have seen? Besides, it just really doesn't seem necessary to seal the cover story Percy could just as easily pretended to send the letter if it was needed. So- That is just my take on it. Percy is an idiot, and is blind by a desire for power. Let's hope to god he never gets too far up. From catlady at wicca.net Mon Jul 26 00:28:50 2004 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 00:28:50 -0000 Subject: Lupin/quilt/SlytherinHouse&theHeadmaster/Ammut/HouseElf Names&Ages /Hag/MrsB Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107692 First of all, could everyone please practise very hard to get a Outstanding on their Snippage O.W.L.? Like not including more of the original post in your reply than is needed for comprehension of your reply? Thank you. Demetra wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/106889 : << I have more trouble with Lupin in this [Shrieking Shack] scene (and I LOVE Lupin, he is one of my favorite characters). As the more cerebral of the two, I wonder why he was so willing to kill Peter vs. turning him over to the authorities. >> I also love Remus and refuse to believe that he is ESE. I suppose he joined with Sirius to kill Peter instead of suggesting to turn him over to the authorities because wizarding notions of justice told him that Sirius had a right to take personal revenge, and his loyalty to Sirius told him to share the guilt and then share being on the run afterwards. I agree with the poster who said that neither Sirius nor Remus had a ny reason to *trust* the Ministry of Magic to take any action but a cover-up, but they [thought they] could trust Dumbledore to take care of it. Amber Sunnylove summarised the chapter in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/106898 including : << Hermione has made Kreacher a quilt, >> I always assumed that when the book said Hermione made a quilt, it meant that she made a quilt. But many people erroneously say 'quilt' when they mean a nice knitted or crocheted blanket, so I realised just now that perhaps Hermione actually made a knitted afghan? The earlier description of her not very good knitted socks and hats for the House Elves suggests that she was not ready to take up yet another craft, quilting. Del wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGr ownups/message/106942 : << If I were Headmistress of a school where one House is reputed for spawning large numbers of dark wizards, and where many students of said House came from families that don't exactly mind the Dark Arts, I would make sure that the students of that House receive special instruction about why the Dark Arts are not the way to go. >> And their parents would complain that you were trying to interfere with the 'values' that the parents were trying to teach their children. We see this in the US all the time; for example, when a child brought a bag of cookies to kindergarten and the teacher forced her to share them with the other kids and her parent complained that the teacher is trying to turn the children into Communists. The owner (or Board of Governors) of a private school can decide which values the school will teach and parents who don't like it can just withdraw their children. I think Hogwarts is more in a positiion like a state school, ultimately under the control of some level of elected (in a democracy) officials, who tend to go along with what the majority of voters want. Kyntor wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/107665 : << I would deal with Snape quite differently that Pippin would. First, I would go through official channels. I would request a meeting with Dumbledore and McGonagall requesting that they take of the situation. I would tell them that not only is his behavior unethical and unprofessional, it is also unacceptable. >> No one inside the wizarding culture thinks that Snape's behavior is unacceptable. Shaun Hately recently posted (but I can't find it now!) about a Real Life teacher who was considered perfectly acceptable even tho' he did all the nasty things Snape did to students except destroying the turned-in assignment. << If Dumbledore and McGonagall does nothing about the situation, then it is time for Harry to do something himself. Harry could send a letter to paper detailing Snapes behavior. Harry could also mention the dark mark on his arm and the way he coddles the Slytherins. Everything Harry reported to the newspaper would be completely true and it would not blow any cover that Snape had to maintain. >> The only part of that which would be of interest to the newspaper reading wizarding public would be that Snape was a former Death Eater with the Dark Mark on his arm. That might upset enough parents that they would demand that Snape be fired. In which case, someone should ask Harry how that is different from the way Snape ^^*^^ got Lupin ^==^ fired, I mean resigned. Kneasy wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/107246 : << Now being sorted into Slytherin might influence Harry's attitudes, but I can't see that it would necessarily help him to become great. He might turn out to be another TR - bitter, petty, selfish - but great? Greatness would need power - lots of it, and if Harry had that much power *of his own* he could be great anywhere, not just in Slytherin House. >> Slytherin House would be only a HELP to Harry becoming great, not a not prerequisite. Some ways in which it might help him: making friends with kids who grow up to be rich and prominent useful allies; learning to set a goal (ambition) and plan how to achieve it, instead of just drifting; picking up the attitude of not letting compassion, chivalry, etc interfere with his plans. An'nai Jiriki wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/107173 : << Ammut is a new one on me, perhaps this is another bastardized spelling of Apuat. >> Surely Ammut is supposed to be Ammit the devourer of souls whose heart fail to balance in the scales of Maat: http://www.pantheon.org/articles/a/ammit.html (thanks for pointing me to pantheon.org) Carol wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/107362 : << Otherwise, the name is no more than a cruel pun on the part of whichever member of the Black family bestowed it. >> Are House Elves named by their parents or by their owners? If named by their parents, do the names come from some House Elf native language or House Elf history and genealogy, or just made up on the spot ? Do such names as Dobby, Winky, and Kreachur refers to ancient heroism and glory completely unknown to humans? Btw, it was posted long, long ago that "dobby" was the word for a brownie in the folklore of some English region (could the cleaning cloth have been named after that, perhaps as a brand name?). I searched for links and found only: http://www.mysteriousbritain.co.uk/folklore/englishfolkapp.html#GlossD I agree with your points about JKR knew that "creature" not only has the current meaning of a lesser being, but the original meaning of a created being, but to me the name Kreachur echoes not only "creature" but "treacher" as in treachery. Potioncat wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/107416 : << I also wonder how long House-Elves live. >> (*meow* right back at you) When Dobby introduced himself to Harry in CoS, he mentioned how bad things had been for House Elves during the LV Reign of Terror. It seemed like he remembered it personally. LV had fallen 12 years ago at that time, so Dobby must have been older than 12. Pippin wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/107450 : << How about hags? *snip* Very pointed teeth??! Wouldn't it be just dripping with irony if our Dolores Umbridge is a half-breed or a disguised part-human herself? (I know this list doesn't quite go along with Lexicon Steve in regarding the chocolate frog cards from the video games as canon, but it does mention in the PoA game that hags have been known to disguise themselves as human women.) >> GoF suggests the opposite: "The Three Broomsticks was packed, mainly with Hogwarts students enjoying their free afternoon, but also with a variety of magical people Harry rarely saw anywhere else. Harry supposed that as Hogsmeade was the only all-wizard village in Britain, it was a bit of a haven for creatures like hags, who were not as adept as wizards at disguising themselves." Melissa wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/107460 : << Although cutting that portion of the wall out to get rid of her is a good idea. I guess that it didn't occur to the order members because it seems to be a Muggle answer to a magical problem. >> Or maybe cutting the wall would damage the magical protections that Sirius's father had put on the house. From anne_conda at web.de Sun Jul 25 20:12:38 2004 From: anne_conda at web.de (Anne) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 20:12:38 -0000 Subject: HBP again! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107693 Hi, I'm half- ashamed actually writing this post, since I thought following theory would be faaar too apparent to be warranted as send- able. Perhaps someone already did my job, whilst yahoo- mort gave me some indecorous bounces or when I spend my holidays thinking about nothing, which was pure stress (the next time I will try my luck as nearly- headless/ bookless, THAT should do). especially since JKR gave us this juicy tidbit- the sixth books title. And that helpful hint neither Harry or Voldemort would fit for that noble (?) job. To make it short: I believe the half- blood- prince is going to be dear Dudley Dursley. *stepsbackthinking* Yes, still do. *helplessgrabforarguments* Yet, I'm afraid don't have solid arguments to built a blow- safe theory. It's just my mind always travells ways even I'm not able to follow but then I guess those those err- let me call them "points" could be relevant: - we learned from JKR that some older wizard is meant to use magic under great pressure in the upcoming books . I always thought that would be Aunt Petunia saving her family as a literarily mirror to her sister Lily saving Harry. I felt that maybe Petunia WAS a witch, but too scared to enter the magic world since that war was going on and she, like her sister, was a "Mudblood". I assumed her jealousness concerning Lily was because she felt like a coward beside her; Lily ATTENDED Hogwarts nonetheless as a muggle- born. Petunia maybe even had a deal with Dumbledore- to be never revealed as a witch, to be able to live a Muggle- life in peace and harmony like her parents did (Petunia the flower- power- teen, aw!), whilst Lily was fighting for her life as a Muggle- born- witch in WW and of course played tricks on her not- quite- so- courageous- sister. Obviously she is far to frightened of dementors just to have only heard from them as a side- note in OoP IMO she had to have some touch with the wizard world to be THAT freaked- out and ?just hypothetically- then made a deal with Dumbledore to be isolated from that horrifying world. And what had Dudley heard when the dementors drew nearer to him (*lol*, now that's really beside the point, but: I just noticed my PC's writing programme has to be one of those very few being taught not to underline words such as "dementor" & Co.! See, he HAS a personality!)? Something akin to Harry? A war going on, his mummy begging Dumbledore to make her undetectable as I witch for the Ministry? Oh, poor nerves! - We heard another smashed prophecy- orb during the Ministry of Magic- fight: someone new will come at solstice and nobody will follow him. When I heard the new books title, I not only shocked my poor friend with a very sudden and very table- rocking "AH!", but immediately thought of that short prophecy. I reckon the prophecy refers to that Half Blood Prince. Now, if I recall correctly- the pagans celebrated 8 Sabbath- feasts, 2 (?) of them on solstice. We know that Dudley has his birthday circa 1 month before Harry: June. June 21 is midsummer; a solstice. So IMO the prophesy is likely to foretell Dudley's birth as Prince. Maybe Petunia knew about this prophecy ? BTW: why are those prophecies locked in the Ministry? Aren't parents told what is said about their child's future? Who is allowed to hear the content of those glass balls? surely a question of moral, such as the question about altering human genes in general to prevent certain inherited diseases? If you were pregnant Mrs. Riddle and were told your baby is very likely to become the Dark Lord Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh, WAIT! Maybe she WAS told and rejected her child, hence Riddle's innermost "evilness" (lack of "Urvertrauen") ? Mrs. Rowling, this wrinkle here is yours. *sigh* - And nobody will be Half Blood Prince ever again- hm. Then who was Prince before him? Codric Gryffindor, the first Muggle- lover ever? I always thought his sword identified him as a nobleman. Why not Prince, Half Blood Prince? What if Lily's family was somehow related to Gryffindor ages ago? Did Voldemort know this? Was this why he never intended Lily to die? To save the blood line that was foretold to produce the half- blood- Prince? Maybe he being half blood himself would have loved the idea of such a prince. We ?and assumed Voldemort DOES know from that prophecy- and Voldemort simply don't know about that Prince significance: why IS he the last one of half-bloods? Won't there be a muggle world after that inevitable war coming? Would Voldemort love that? - In the threads I read commenting that title people said the HBP can't be person we never heard about before: to make this person important in no time at all this person is better off being known to the reader already so it would be just a shift of significance. What is Dudley's USE in the series so far? Harry already has some literal mirrors in Neville, Riddle, Krum and Sirius- and the torture is easily managed by Vernon without Dudley's engaged assistance so? There still has to be something in the sack for Dudders. That OoP- dementor- attack not only gave me chills, but also the impression that NOW is Dudley's time- he will gain his place in that upcoming war, because JKR made him vital by giving him emotional depth and by connecting him to the magical world. The longest time I thought HE was meant to be the late- time- bloomer, but then: he couldn't see those dementors as wizards are meant to do and is not an person counting as "late in life", is he? - Therefore if his mother his really a witch, his dad the muggle-est Muggle, he is half- blood, born just the right time for another prophecy next to Harry's/ Neville. It somehow just clicks for me. Please discuss. .annie sooo glad Harry is not the prince I still hope he is also not the man for the Dark- Lord- defender- job: Neville, hopefully (although my heart would broke if sweet Neville won't survive/ would have to murder Voldemort) I like my Harry as closest to normal and alive as he can get (go to the hair- dresser, marry Hermione and settle down, boy- just let Rosamunde Pilcher make your further life). PS: What's the matter with Trevor?! *g* Sorry, couldn't resist. This toad this toad this- TOAD! (please pardon my poor English- not my mother tongue and no time for rectification, since my friend threatens to eat all my jelly beans ? and to ruin our friendship by doing just that- while I'm typing here *throwsthemousepadathim* "Weg da! Du machst ein gef?hrliches M?dchen traurig.") From dontask2much at yahoo.com Sun Jul 25 23:24:18 2004 From: dontask2much at yahoo.com (charme) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 19:24:18 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Theory on James and Lilly Potters occupations References: Message-ID: <005401c4729e$82c5d920$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> No: HPFGUIDX 107694 Kneasy: The Potters could have been teachers at Hogwarts but I think it unlikely that Harry could have been there for 5 years and have no-one mention the fact. I can't see a reason why it should be kept a secret. Minerva'd liked them as students and they'd been great favourites of Hagrid - and he's never been able to keep his mouth shut. What would be the point of keeping it from Harry?< Charme: Uhhhh, no one told Harry that his father had played Quidditch, and specifically that he was a Seeker. We have Hermione to thank for that in the movie (is it in the book?,) don't we? With the way the WW loves to play the game, wouldn't someone at Hogwarts have mentioned it? Minerva didn't when she saw him in PS/SS, did she? I notice Harry doesn't ask direct questions about his parents until OoP, when he sees Snapey's memory of the events after his O.W.L's ( I think that's it - don't have my book handy at the moment) with James, Sirius, Lupin, and Lily. Mostly what's discussed is how they died, not how they lived. From mayeaux45 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 25 20:18:16 2004 From: mayeaux45 at yahoo.com (mayeaux45) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 20:18:16 -0000 Subject: Theory on James and Lilly Potters occupations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107695 > Kneasy: > The Potters could have been teachers at Hogwarts but I think it > unlikely that Harry could have been there for 5 years and have > no-one mention the fact. > What would be the point of keeping it from Harry? Good point Kneasy...On the other hand, bigger secrets than the occupation of his parents' have been kept from him before. So why not this? "mayeaux45" From mayeaux45 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 25 21:18:37 2004 From: mayeaux45 at yahoo.com (mayeaux45) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 21:18:37 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and The Lord of the Rings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107696 "goldfoy" wrote: > * The books are principally intended for children and young > adults. > * The hero of such a book is likely to be seen as a potential role- > model for its intended audience. > * It would be undesirable for such a role-model to be a murderer, > even if the murder was totally justified and carried out purely in > self-defence. Mayeaux45: I have to disagree with you on this particular statement. J.K. Rowling has already made it a point to say that 'the HP series was not intended for *children*. Most of the younger readers who started out reading the HP books have been growing up with Harry Potter as well (even faster considering when the books have been released). In one interview JKR was re-telling a story of a woman that had came up to her and told her that she was so happy that she (JKR) had created a *safe world* where her son could escape to. JKR responded by saying (paraphrasing) that the HP series is not a safe world at all. It has death, destruction, deceit, etc... and many other elements that would not be *suitable for children*. My point is that IMO JKR would have NO problem with having Harry "having to kill" Lord Voldemort at the end of the series. > It would obviously be preferable for Harry Potter to be reluctant > to actually kill Lord Voldemort because of his inherent goodness. > His reluctance would put him at Lord Voldemort's mercy, but before > Lord Voldemort can kill him someone else is able to save him by > destroying Lord Voldemort. Mayeaux45: Maybe......except for that *little* thing you mentioned previously..........THE PROPHECY!!!!!!!!! ;) > And don't forget, it's Sam who gets the girl, not Frodo Mayeaux45: I understood what you meant by this statement when I first read it, but now that I think about it the dynamic between Sam, Frodo, and Rosie is much different than the one between Ron, Harry, and Hermione. NOT a big shipper at all when it comes to the HRH *triangle*, but I do have my suspicions. Before OotP I would have been 100% in the R/Hr camp, but now I'm not so sure. Going back and re-reading the HP books (especially 3-5), you will see just as many clues (if not more) for H/Hr as R/Hr. From meriaugust at yahoo.com Mon Jul 26 01:43:16 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 01:43:16 -0000 Subject: HP and Star Wars (Was:Re: Harry Potter and The Lord of the Rings) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107697 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cincimaelder" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vmonte" wrote: > > goldfoy wrote: > > > > Dumbledore she has even given a hint as to which character will > > fulfil the role of Gollum and actually destroy Lord Voldemort. It > > would be reasonable to suppose that they would die in the process. > > > > SSSusan: > > Okay, I'll bite. Care to provide further detail on this location & > > individual? > > > > MAE here: > I remember reading in an interview somewhere that JKR said that she > read LotR as a teen and really wasn't a lover of fantasy reading. I > can't imagine that she would mirror the story so closely that it would > have the same ending when she hadn't read it for a long time. I also > agree that if Harry had to become a muggle at the conclusion it would > be a great disappointment for Harry and the readers. Harry becoming a > muggle is not the same as Frodo's fate. Frodo was content in his > fate, given all that he had seen, he would suffer too much in a normal > mortal life. Meri now: I also recall the interview where JKR stated that she wasn't an obsesive LOTR fan, and as someone who just recently finnished reading the LOTR series for the first time I can see some of the parallels being pointed out. But the fact of the matter is that LOTR, HP, Star Wars, Narnia, Prydain Chronicles, etc. are all basically the same type of hero story, embellished for different worlds and purposes and adapted for different times. People have been telling hero epics for 5000 years, so it isn't surprising at all that some elements would be similar in the same kinds of stories. The same kind of parallels can be made far easier between, for example, HP and the Star Wars movies. Orphan boy (Harry, Luke) leaves behind his misunderstanding relations (the Dursleys, Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru...well, they were killed but work with me here), is given an education in a mystical force (magic, the Force) by an elderly, white haired and bearded man with connections to his past and parents (DD, Ob-Wan Kenobi). The boy meets two friends who have a thing for each other (Hermione and Ron, Princess Leia and Han Solo) and has epic adventures while disovering the truth about his past and his ultimate destiny (to destroy LV by...well, we don't know yet, to destroy Darth Vader by reawakening his inner Anakin Skywalker). It is just a mark of how ubiquitous and popular hero epics are that people can find so many ways of retelling them. Meri - who fully believes that there are really only three or four diffent types of stories (the hero story, the romantic story, the war story and the adventure story) and that these have been adapted constantly for all of human civilization... From MadameSSnape at aol.com Mon Jul 26 02:20:49 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 22:20:49 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How should Harry deal with Snape? Message-ID: <1d5.26fd1725.2e35c481@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107698 In a message dated 7/25/2004 3:38:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, marcuscason at charter.net writes: I will remind you that Snape's mistreatment of Harry stated Harry's very first potions class. Harry was pretty nuetral regarding Snape up to that point. Harry negative opinion of Snape only exists because of Snape's behavior towards Harry. ================= Sherrie here: Actually, Harry is convinced that Snae dislikes him before he even knows who Snape is. From chap. 7 of PS/SS, "The Sorting Hat", p. 94 (UK paper) - this takes place just after Harry's scar has twinged: "The pain had gone as quickly as it had come. Harder to shake off was the feeling Harry had got from the teacher's look - a feeling that he didn't like Harry at all." Sherrie (who acknowledges it's BOTH their fault - and it's become a vicious circle...) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From theadimail at yahoo.co.in Mon Jul 26 04:17:37 2004 From: theadimail at yahoo.co.in (theadimail) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 04:17:37 -0000 Subject: Snape's part in death of Sirius Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107699 Hi, I read the last portions of Book5 yesterday and the actions of Snape looked to me as highly suspicious. According to Dumbledore, Snape first alerted the crowd at the Grimmauld Place that Harry might be thinking that Sirius was taken hostage by Voldemort at the ministry and then went to the Forest for searching Harry. Now this explanation raises several doubts. Firstly, why did Snape take so long to alert the Order? Assuming that the guys who appeared at the ministry for Harry's resuce started on the job immediately without dilly-dallying makes one ask, why were they so late? We do not know how they reached the ministry ofcourse, but I'm thinking they must either have used Floo powder or apparated or used a portkey. I don't think they used the Knight Bus or flown on brooms or thestrals. If so, why did they reach so late after all the initial battle? Remember Harry and others flew with thestrals( though fast but not as much as Floo poder or apparating or portkeys), meaning they took a long time in coming to London. And then add all that time when they were searching for the prophecy and running from the Death Eaters. So why did the Order take so much time to come to their resuce if Snape alerted them on time? Then there is this business of searching the forest. Surely he did not keep searching all the time along. He should have pretty much realised after a little search that Harrry might have really gone to the Ministry even though the Forest is large. Then why didn't he himself go to the ministry to rescue Harry? Snape's motives become more suspicious when Dumbledore says that Snape asked Sirius to stay at home to report to Dumbledore. Firstly these are all grownup wizards, don't tell me that they have to rely on a person staying back to report something. There must be so many wizarding methods to do that. Snape's taunt might be just that. He might have been taunting Sirius as the chance provided itself, knowing fully well that if Snape suggested anything like that Sirius will immediately disclaim any such thing and rush to the Ministry. This leads us to Snape's motives. I don't think he is on the wrong side, part of the conspiracy. But what I think is he wanted to Sirius out there in action; if not risking death, at least courting exposure. I think that he kind of played his part in motivating Sirius to go to the ministry and thereby put Sirius in danger. He may not have known for sure that Sirius might die but he was definitely counting on some kind of damage to Sirius. I think that's why he probably did not go to ministry himself. He was having his revenge and waiting for the result. And that is why I think harry feels such a rush of hatred towards him eventhough he does not know completely, he feels somrhow Snape played a part in Sirius' death. Bye Adi From jlawlor at gmail.com Mon Jul 26 04:59:43 2004 From: jlawlor at gmail.com (James Lawlor) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 23:59:43 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Snape doesn't have to be human In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96773c8804072521597ee53eb5@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107700 Neri: > I was very impressed by your arguments, and I agree with all of them > (truly) but you forgot the strongest point of canon against Lupin > being a werewolf: someone asked JKR if he has any connection with > werewolves and she answered: "Erm... I don't think so". James: I very much enjoyed Pippin's post as well. Neri makes quite a good point of course, that JKR basically said no (which is why I tend to disbelieve the theory myself - and for some reason it just doesn't strike me as likely). But there's something that bothers me about that a bit. It doesn't really fit with any of JKR's other answers. It seems to be that she either flatly denies outlandish or simply untrue rumors (eg: Will we see Lily and James alive again, Was Lily a DE, etc) or she is deliberately vague and more or less says "Wait and see". But "Erm... I don't think so" is just...odd. It could well be due to the fact that she was caught off-guard at a live interview (perhaps she had never really thought of the idea herself, or heard the theory before?). Or perhaps she fumbled for something rather vague. But "I don't think so" implies that she doesn't know for sure... and well, if she didn't who would? :D There's also an explanation I saw awhile back that said perhaps she hadn't made up her mind yet. Either way, it's an interestingly odd answer. - James Lawlor jlawlor at gmail.com From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Mon Jul 26 05:17:55 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 05:17:55 -0000 Subject: Snape's part in death of Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107701 >>> Adi wrote: > Firstly, why did Snape take so long to alert the Order? Assuming > that the guys who appeared at the ministry for Harry's resuce started on the job immediately without dilly-dallying makes one ask, why were they so late? We do not know how they reached the ministry ofcourse, but I'm thinking they must either have used Floo powder or apparated or used a portkey. Bren now [before I completely lose contact with HPFG, sniff]: I have no clue what method Snape used to communite with the Order, but I doubt it was either: 1) through Floo powder ('something more effective than Umbridge's fireplace') 2) two-way mirror ('Molly would not approve of this') 3) Protean Charm: you'd have to actually *talk* to the member, not just summoning. So perhaps the communication part itself was abit time-consuming, though that won't be too efficient either. >>> Adi continues: > Why did they reach so late after all the initial battle? Remember Harry and others flew with thestrals [snip] meaning they took a long time in coming to London. And then add all that time when they were searching for the prophecy and running from the Death Eaters. <<< Bren: Yup, you got it right, Apparating or port-key will be the most likely transportation method. But then I'm assuming convincing Sirius to stay put took some time/emergy from them. >>> Adi: Snape's motives become more suspicious when Dumbledore says that Snape asked Sirius to stay at home to report to Dumbledore. Firstly these are all grownup wizards, don't tell me that they have to rely on a person staying back to report something. There must be so many wizarding methods to do that. <<< Brenda: Wasn't it DD's order to Sirius that he stays at home? I believe DD's real intention of ordering him to stay was to keep him safe. In DD's mind, Sirius was the best person to stay put and give DD the report, he couldn't risk Sirius' neck with him going back to the Ministry, the place he was wanted the most. Not to mention those Death-Eating servants of "Lord Voldemort" (or whatever, hehe -- "I mocked Voldemort, ask me how!!" ). And remember, DD was on the run too, technically. How many wizarding communication methods would he have his hands on? And as for Snape's part in Sirius' death, I don't think it was necessarily in his intention to lead Sirius to the Ministry that night. Snape probably knew that whatever he says, regardless of its true motivation, Sirius will not listen and go ahead with whatever he feels like doing. But he's probably not crying that Sirius is dead either. It worked out 'best' for him in a way, IMO. And Harry blaming Snape for Sirius' death -- well that lad blames Snape for everything going wrong, doesn't he. No further comment to that. Brenda, who is anxious to see if this post will be #107700 (D'oh! It'll be 107701 -- at least it is a palindrome -- lol what a DORK!) From zumbetti83 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 25 20:07:08 2004 From: zumbetti83 at yahoo.com (zumbetti83) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 20:07:08 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and The Lord of the Rings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107702 "goldfoy": Through Professor Dumbledore she has even given a hint as to which character will fulfil the role of Gollum and actually destroy Lord Voldemort. It would be reasonable to suppose that they would die in the process. vmonte: Are you talking about Snape? I could see Snape as representing a Gollum "type." Zumbetti, now: I always assumed that the Gollum parallel (if a parallel can indeed be made) was Peter Pettigrew. Let's not forget that he is still is indebted to Harry for his life, much like Gollum was for Bilbo and by the inheritance of the ring, Frodo. I can picture a darth vadar moment for Peter Pettigrew, where he sees Harry suffering and again changes sides. From dolis5657 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 26 01:22:11 2004 From: dolis5657 at yahoo.com (dcgmck) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 01:22:11 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and The Lord of the Rings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107703 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: [snip] > There are a number of differences in addition to parallels. Sauron is continuing in the tradition of his master Melkor in wanting to see > the destruction of men but he is not specifically seeking Frodo; he > merely knows of Hobbits and the Shire. Voldemort wants to be the > Master of all, but has concentrated his hate in recent years on > Harry and is obsessed with revenge. dcgmck: I beg to differ. As Sauron is continuing in the tradition of his paster, so Voldemort has presented himself as the rightful heir of Slytherin. As Voldemort has focused on Harry Potter, so Sauron has, thanks to Gollum's revelations under torture, focused on the name of Baggins, which is why Frodo travels to Bree as Mr. Underhill, for all the good it does him. Both Frodo and Harry are perceived to stand in the way of their respective opponents' complete return to power and domination. > Harry, although meeting the equivalents of the Nazgul and Shelob > (Dementors and Aragog), has not received any physical injury from > them. dcgmck: Physical injuries are superficial, though I wouldn't discount the fact that Harry has been in the Healing Ward or at least treated for physical injuries in each of the first four books. Each visit to the ward and encounter with Voldemort has left another psychological scar on Harry's psyche, as clearly evidenced throughout volume 5. This seems to be a fair parallel to what happens to Frodo on his journey. At the rate Harry is going, I can easily see him ending up in a state similar to that of Frodo by the end of his ultimate confrontation. After all, it's archetypal. > He is not trying to destroy an object of power; he is attempting to > stop a person of power - the dilemma being how to do it without > descending into evil himself (an echo here of Saruman and possibly > Boromir). dcgmck: I can't help thinking that objects are just tangible symbols, superficial signs for argument, but if one must have objects of power over which to wage war, there are the brother wands that each bear a feather from Fawkes at their cores. A closer parallel might be the possession of the recording of the prophecy that Harry and members of the Order prevented Voldemort and his cohorts from retrieving. Another thought has just occurred to me. Whereas Sauron imbued his gold ring with the bulk of his power, Voldemort seems to have invested and focused much of his regrouped power in his new body. How does that serve as a possible "object" in need of destruction? > So, I stand by my oft expressed view that Harry is an everyman, > representative (to my view) of a Christian on the pilgrimage of > life. dcgmck: I, too, have entertained the notion that Harry and Frodo are representative Everymen progressing on their respective pilgrimages through life. My only problem with the idea is that I can't help noticing that each of these "poor" orphans seems to have a very fortuitous inheritance with which to finance their journeys... > I shall don my well-worn and battle-dinted tin hat and take up a > defensive position behind the battlements..... dcgmck: No hard knocks intended... :-) From william_mclamb at yahoo.com Mon Jul 26 01:42:59 2004 From: william_mclamb at yahoo.com (william_mclamb) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 01:42:59 -0000 Subject: Wizarding Funerals (was Re: Re :Percy Weasly) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107704 > Amey wrote : > > (Harry at least had Cedric's body and Crouch Jr, though Fudge > > didn't and can't listen to them). > > Del replies : > Percy most probably doesn't know about Crouch Jr, nobody does > outside of those that were at Hogwarts at the time it happened > and the people in the Order. Don't Wizards have funerals? While Crouch jr.'s could probably be hushed up how could Crouch sr.'s and Cedric's? If I were Dumbledore I would have used these as opportunities to spread the word of you know who's return. "william_mclamb" From dzeytoun at cox.net Mon Jul 26 02:09:05 2004 From: dzeytoun at cox.net (dzeytoun) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 02:09:05 -0000 Subject: How should Harry deal with Snape? (was: Why Snape doesn't have to be human) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107705 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > SSSusan: > I like this question of Neri's, and I think it just might serve > Harry well if he were to consider it very seriously. I can > understand your reaction, Alla, but I don't know that I agree with > you. We've seen very little indication that Snape is interested in > changing. So if a change is going to occur between the two, I > think it just might have to come from an effort of Harry's. > > What could it hurt for Harry to TRY this tack? Not a thing. The > bigger question, I think, is: Is it *possible* for a 16-year-old, > filled with anger and frustration, convinced this man truly loathes > him, to set all that aside and say, "NO. I will not feed the cycle > by being a berk to him. I will not give him reason any more to > fail me, to sneer at me, to belittle me. I will show him that I > understand we MUST work together." I understand the logic behind this, but I have three main objections. First of all, such a solution to the Snape/Harry dilemma would imply that the way to deal with bullies is to submit to them, which is a dangerous precedent. Secondly, it would be deeply unsatisfying. I realize that the last is a purely subjective statement, but I think I speak for a large number of people when I say that I will be extremely dissatisfied if Snape's behavior does not come home to roost in a very meaningful way. Harry proving he is the better man by becoming a "model" student, or undertaking that behavior just to cooperate with Snape for the good of the Order, just doesn't cut it - if no other reason than that such a plotline would be so very trite and stale. The most important objection, however, is that the time for this approach has already come and gone. IF someone like Dumbledore or Lupin (or best of all, Sirius) had approached Harry with this idea BEFORE the events of OOTP, I suppose it might have had a shot. But now Harry's feelings for Snape have gone past the stage of anger, resentment, or even rage, and settled into cold hatred. Observe his response to Snape at the end of OOTP. It was nothing if not coldly polite. He did not fume or argue, he did not even waste much energy feeling resentful after McGonagall intervened and sent him outside. He just felt icy hatred for Snape, period. I suspect that, all things being equal, Harry will never initiate such a policy as described above on his own, and he would likely view any advice along these lines from anyone else as far too little, far too late. In order to reach an accomodation with Snape, Harry must not only deal with all the previous water under the bridge, he must forgive Snape for what he sees as Snape's complicity in Sirius' death. I don't subscribe to the theory that this is simply an outlet for his own guilt. Certainly there is a large amount of that going on, but that is not the only factor. Harry honestly believes that Snape had a hand in Sirius' death because of Snape's behavior during Occlumency lessons and his goading of Sirius at Grimmauld Place. Whether he is correct or not is beside the point at the moment, and very difficult to determine because a case CAN be made against Snape. Not enough of a case, perhaps, to win conviction in a court of law, but certainly enough to have seminary students arguing a pretty interesting case of conscience. All together, I think it is going to take a major event to make for an opening between these two. First of all, it will take large revelations concerning the history between Snape and the Marauders, as well as revelations about why Dumbledore trusts Snape. Secondly, it will take a personal development on Harry's part which will probably not entail him coming to respect Snape, but which will likely render Snape a minor factor in his overall view of the world. Dzeytoun From funkyfungoola at yahoo.com.au Mon Jul 26 04:09:09 2004 From: funkyfungoola at yahoo.com.au (Esmerelda Gertrude Potter-Granger) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 04:09:09 -0000 Subject: Why Snape doesn't have to be human In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107706 I think Snape is a bat animagus, which is how he spies on the Death Eaters. There are a few bat references made in relation to Snape so I can see why people make the vampire connection. Although since JKR nixed that, I think Snape can transform into a bat- also his character is quite bat-like. "Esmerelda Gertrude Potter-Granger" From sixsunflowers at yahoo.com Mon Jul 26 06:26:38 2004 From: sixsunflowers at yahoo.com (Bill and Diana Sowers) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 06:26:38 -0000 Subject: Wizarding Funerals (was Re: Re :Percy Weasly) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107707 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "william_mclamb" wrote: > Don't Wizards have funerals? While Crouch jr.'s could probably be > hushed up how could Crouch sr.'s and Cedric's? If I were Dumbledore I > would have used these as opportunities to spread the word of you know > who's return. I can't imagine Dumbledore feeling that Cedric's funeral be used for anything other than a means of honoring the life of this boy and allowing his parents (and others who loved him) the opportunity to express their grief/love for him. Rowling has a great gift here as a writer in not "bumping off" characters and then moving the plot along as though they no longer matter. She shows how death touches the living and that the dead continue to live on in the hearts and minds of those who loved them. Bill From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 26 07:34:16 2004 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 08:34:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry Potter and The Lord of the Rings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040726073416.27157.qmail@web25109.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107708 --- cincimaelder wrote: I remember reading in an interview somewhere that JKR said that she read LotR as a teen and really wasn't a lover of fantasy reading. I can't imagine that she would mirror the story so closely that it would have the same ending when she hadn't read it for a long time. I also agree that if Harry had to become a muggle at the conclusion it would be a great disappointment for Harry and the readers. Hans: I posted a similar idea in post No. 104372, "Two Crazy Theories". Part of my first theory was that Harry would take over Hagrid's job at the end. My idea came not from Lord of the Rings but from the Alchemical Wedding of Christian Rosycross, where CRC ends up being gatekeeper. Hagrid is in fact a muggle as his wand was broken by the MoM when he was 13. He does use magic, but that is illegal. I repeated my theory in post No. 106899, where I gave this theory a possibility of 75%. I don't know whether Harry will be stopped from doing magic when he takes over Hagrid's job. I think it's unlikely, but in that job he won't need it much anyway. I would like to repeat my theory that Jo is not basing HP on great stories and legends of the past. I agree she's doing a lot of research and is certainly using parts of great stories as sub plots, but the main story of HP comes from her Inspiration. I'm convinced humanity's spiritual development is being led by people who have gone the Way of Liberation. These same people have inspired Johan Andre to write the Alchemical Wedding and JK Rowling to write Harry Potter. They are also behind the really great fairy tales and immortal legends like the Holy Grail, and of course the Sacred Scriptures. Jo does not need to read the Alchemical Wedding to write Harry Potter. There is a true spiritual development which every human being will one day go when he's ready for it, and Jo is outlining this development in symbolic form. I don't know to what extent she herself is aware of the depth and power behind her symbols. However to get back to Harry taking over Hagrid's job, or becoming a sort of muggle: one of the tremendous ingredients of liberation is that an overwhelming compassion burns fiercely in the heart of those who are nearing the final steps. In fact it is taught in esoteric circles that the candidate for liberation can enter it in two ways: facing forwards or facing backwards. Those who face forwards go through the Gate of Saturn to continue their journey through all the planes of the Holy Creation, never to return to the dualistic world. Those who face backwards feel such a deep, gut-wrenching and overpowering sense of compassion for the rest of humanity still caught in the web of delusion that they make the decision to postpone their own total immersion in the ecstatic bliss of Nirvana, or Heaven, or Mount Olympus, call it what you will, and stay behind as gatekeepers for those who wish to undergo the process of spiritual liberation. To some this choice may seem an anticlimax, but to those who understand, there is nothing more beautiful and satisfying than that the greatest of them all becomes the humblest servant through his own choice and out of a deep compassion - for us. Hans ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://www.allnewmessenger.com From patientx3 at aol.com Mon Jul 26 08:24:05 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 08:24:05 -0000 Subject: How should Harry deal with Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107709 Pippin wrote: >>> Well, he should stop lying and sassing back, because that is the behavior that Snape interprets as arrogant. *We* know Harry only does it because he's insecure and frightened of Snape, and the more Snape insults him and accuses him, the more insecure and frightened Harry becomes. But Snape doesn't dig that, and maybe never will. It doesn't really matter whether the core reason for that misunderstanding is rage, social ineptitude, prejudice or sheer cussedness--whatever it is, Harry didn't make Snape the way he is and isn't responsible for making him change the way he thinks -- on the other hand he can, by modifying his own behavior, hope to change the tenor of their interactions. Harry made a start at this at the end of OOP, when he freely admitted he was about to curse Malfoy instead of lying about it. And nothing very terrible happened, did it? He lost a few points. The worst that could have happened was a detention, and Snape's detentions, while not much fun, are certainly not in a class with Umbridge's. Now, if only, the next time Snape insults him, Harry could bring himself to say "You could be right about that, Sir." I've stopped bullying bosses in their tracks with that one. [snip] Harry knows that lying, sassing back, and matching insults aren't constructive behaviors, but his attitude right now is "I only have to behave myself if Snape does." What could convince him to go the extra mile? <<< Kyntor replied: >> And of course all the bad feelings between Harry and Snape is completely Harry's fault. Snape has no culpability at all. << HunterGreen: Of course not. I don't think anyone would try to make *that* case. Clearly the *start* of the Harry/Snape rift is Snape's fault, he set that down quite firmly in the first potions class, but since then (five years later now), both of them are involved in the bad feelings. Snape has his sarcasm and his unfair classroom politics, and Harry has his not following rules, and occasionally not paying attention in class or talking back. The issue at hand here is what, if anything, should Harry do to change the situation. It doesn't mean that its *Harry's* responsibility, but assuming that Snape continued being Snape, what could Harry do to improve things for himself. >> You do not stop bullies by giving into them, you stop them by standing up to them. Letting them have their way just reinforces their behavior. << Perhaps in the case of a pure schoolyard bully, but that's not what Snape is, now is he? Actually, I'll go so far as to say standing up for yourself doesn't always work (personal experience here - it can just goad them). The other 'wisdom' about bullies is to stop them by *ignoring* them. In the case of Harry and Snape, Harry "standing up for himself" would appear as disrespect and insolence in Snape's eyes. They are not peers or equals, Harry can't just talk back when Snape insults him, it doesn't work that way. (even in the cases where he has stood up for himself -- in PoA for example -- Snape always has an answer anyway, doesn't work at all). However, if Harry were to both ignore Snape (as in, not rise to his bait), and not GIVE him a reason to needle him (such as not working hard in class, or lying or blatently ignoring school rules), Snape would perhaps get bored and give up. This could actually help Harry out even if it *doesn't* get Snape to stop or change his behavior. If he just ignores Snape, then maybe Snape won't annoy him so much, even if he is still dripping with sarcasm, and trying to get at Harry. >> I would deal with Snape quite differently that Pippin would. First, I would go through official channels. I would request a meeting with Dumbledore and McGonagall requesting that they take of the situation. I would tell them that not only is his behavior unethical and unprofessional, it is also unacceptable. << How so? I see it being perhaps unprofessional, but how is it unethical? What could Dumbledore do in this situation? Snape's teaching methods (as far as can be seen from the books), are sanctioned and allowed. It may seem extreme to OUR eyes, but in the context, its not that awful. >> Snape is not only mistreating Harry, he is also setting a very bad example for the Slytherins to follow. His Slytherins are going to believe that being biased and a bully is totally acceptable behavior.<< Most of them, though, probably already thought that anyway. Draco, for example, probably looks up to his father *far* more than Snape, so Snape may be reinforcing those behaviors, but they were already there. >>If Dumbledore and McGonagall does nothing about the situation, then it is time for Harry to do something himself. Harry could send a letter to paper detailing Snapes behavior. Harry could also mention the dark mark on his arm and the way he coddles the Slytherins. Everything Harry reported to the newspaper would be completely true and it would not blow any cover that Snape had to maintain. As a matter of fact the public scuffle between Snape and Harry would strengthen his cover. Since the opinion of the wizarding world regarding him has changed, I am sure people would value his opinion.<< But would they really care? Umbridge, may I remind you, was a MoM official, and her teaching methods were far worse (IMO) than Snape's. Look at Binns, all he does is float around and lecture, his class can hardly stay *awake*. Or Trelawney, she keeps telling Harry that he's about to die. And all these things you mentioned, unless they get Snape fired they are going to make the situation THAT much worse for Harry. And if he does get fired, how do we know there's another potion teacher out there to replace him? That could very well be the reason that Dumbledore has kept him on all these years when Snape doesn't seem to like teaching all that well: there ISN'T anyone else out there. >> I would keep up the campeign to get Snape fired until one of two things happened. Either Snape was fired or Dumbledore requested that Harry stop. If Snape is fired, end of problem. If Dumbledore asks Harry to stop, he can agree to under certain conditions. Make modifying Snapes behavior the condition. << It would be better to fire Snape (and actually, I think Snape would quit sooner than agree to treat Harry a "specific" way). His confidence would be undermined, and let me remind you that potions is a very EXACT study, as in, one wrong turn in a potion could turn a harmless one into a deadly one, so it IS necessary for Snape to be strict and unforgiving about mistakes. If Snape were told to tone it down, and one of the kids died as a result (from a poorly made potion), then it would be A LOT worse than a few saracastic comments that Harry has to endure. I don't believe that Snape has done anything extreme enough where he HAS to change. The students are learning, and no one is being permanately scarred, (Harry isn't having nightmares about Snape or anything, he's just an *annoyance*), therefore I fail to see a problem. From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Mon Jul 26 08:59:50 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 04:59:50 -0400 Subject: Theory on James and Lilly Potters occupations Message-ID: <001001c472ee$e91d9730$22c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 107710 Kneasy: "The Potters could have been teachers at Hogwarts but I think it unlikely that Harry could have been there for 5 years and have no-one mention the fact. I can't see a reason why it should be kept a secret. Minerva'd liked them as students and they'd been great favourites of Hagrid - and he's never been able to keep his mouth shut. What would be the point of keeping it from Harry?" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107711 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "charme" wrote: > > Charme: > > Uhhhh, no one told Harry that his father had played Quidditch, and > specifically that he was a Seeker. We have Hermione to thank for that in the > movie (is it in the book?,) don't we? With the way the WW loves to play the > game, wouldn't someone at Hogwarts have mentioned it? Minerva didn't when > she saw him in PS/SS, did she? > Kneasy: Erm, yes - she did. PS/SS chap. 9. After Minerva had introduced him to Oliver Woods: "Your father would have been proud," she said. "He was an excellent Quidditch player himself." Charme: > I notice Harry doesn't ask direct questions about his parents until OoP, > when he sees Snapey's memory of the events after his O.W.L's ( I think > that's it - don't have my book handy at the moment) with James, Sirius, > Lupin, and Lily. Mostly what's discussed is how they died, not how they > lived. Kneasy: Very true and bloody frustrating. Harry *never* seems to ask the obvious questions - and not just about his parents. Yeah, OK, it's a plot device to keep us from learning too much too soon, since everything Harry hears we hear too. Sometimes some of us sit there, book in hand, puce in the face, screaming "Ask the question, damn it!" He never asks where all that money came from; He never asks where 'home' is; When Hagrid gives him a 'photo album he never asks "when, where, who?" Despite the Mirror of Erised he never asks about his wider family; Despite Dementor induced visions he never asks about Godric's Hollow; He never asks what his parents did for a living; He never asks where his parents are buried; On past form he probably won't ask about 'defying Voldy three times'; The list just goes on....and on. JKR has slapped an injunction on this by telling us that he had learned not to ask questions of the Dursleys. But that only applies to his time in Privet Drive; DD, Lupin, Sirius, Hagrid, Minerva all volunteer snippets of information about his parents and he *never* follows them up with questions that seem inevitable. Argh! Just think of all the wonderful posts we could write if we had at least a little more light cast on the above points. From tigerfan41 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 26 11:31:29 2004 From: tigerfan41 at yahoo.com (Darrell Harris) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 04:31:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 4979 In-Reply-To: <1090603910.10083.58267.m11@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040726113129.25993.qmail@web52501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107712 Message: 5 Subject: Re: Quick question re: Lupin's resignation . . . snip HunterGreen: snip ...In any case, he still leaves the shack during the full moon when he knows he hasn't taken the potion. Potion or not he would have transformed anyway inside or outside. He tells Harry, "The potion that Professor Snape has been making for me is a very recent discovery. It makes me safe, you see. As long as I take it in the week, preceding the full moon, I keep my mind when I transform.... I'm able to curl up in my office, a harmless wolf, and wait for the moon to wane again." So It didn't matter he was going to become a wolf. The question now is was he safe or not? He didn't attack Ron or the others he just ran into the forest. For all the conspiracy buffs was it planned ahead as a diversion to allow wormtail to escape? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From xtremesk8ergurl2 at aol.com Sun Jul 25 21:47:53 2004 From: xtremesk8ergurl2 at aol.com (xtremesk8ergurl2 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 17:47:53 EDT Subject: Doesn't Voldemort Know about Snape's loyalty? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107713 Charme said: > Oh, I don't know...what complicates this is Quirrell's statement > about the "counter curse" Snape was "muttering" in answer to > Harry's realization that Quirrell was hexing his broom during the > Quidditch match. I don't think Voldemort is naive enough to think > that if Snape was still loyal to him, he'd be trying to save Harry > Potter that day - Snape could have turned a blind eye or not muttered > the correct counter spell. This is one thing I've been trying to figure out. Why did Snape try to protect Harry? Was it because he knew Dumbledore would be mad if anything happened to him? We also saw this in the POA movie when he was trying to protect Harry, Ron, and Hermione from Lupin as a werewolf. "xtremesk8ergurl2" From eternal_riddle at yahoo.com Mon Jul 26 11:24:38 2004 From: eternal_riddle at yahoo.com (Anastasia) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 11:24:38 -0000 Subject: Snape's part in death of Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107714 Adi wrote: > According to Dumbledore, Snape first alerted the crowd at the > Grimmauld Place that Harry might be thinking that Sirius was taken > hostage by Voldemort at the ministry and then went to the Forest for > searching Harry. Now this explanation raises several doubts. > Firstly, why did Snape take so long to alert the Order? Assuming > that the guys who appeared at the ministry for Harry's resuce started > on the job immediately without dilly-dallying makes one ask, why were > they so late? We do not know how they reached the ministry ofcourse, > but I'm thinking they must either have used Floo powder or apparated > or used a portkey. Anastasia: Well, I think there is nothing strange about that. Only as soon as Snape cannot find Harry in the forest does he understand that Harry must have found a way to go to the DoM. Snape knows that the students can't apparate, so how should they get to London? Umbridge wouldn't let them use the Knight Bus. Thestrals don't come to your mind as they are not likely to approach a person in the forest. IMO it took Snape a lot of time to 1) look for Harry 2) understand what happened 3) contact Headquarters. Therefore, Lupin and the others left for London later than Harry. Anastasia From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 26 12:28:48 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 12:28:48 -0000 Subject: Two weeks worth... DD's curious timing in SS/PS & OOTP... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107715 "vmonte" wrote: [snip] > There is another strange moment like this during Harry's trial in > OOTP: > Page 139, U.S. version -- > "I must have missed it," said Dumbledore cheerfully. "However, due > to a lucky mistake I arrived at the Ministry three hours early, so > no harm done." > It's obvious that Fudge never sent an owl to Harry or DD. But DD's > comment is curious? I don't think that he is lying; [snip] On the contrary, he is lying through his teeth, and enjoying every second of it. Fudge knows damn well that the time and place of the Hearing were changed particularly to prevent any interference by Dumbledore or indeed anybody else on Harry's behalf, but he can't say anything without admitting his attempted subterfuge. Dumbledore knows damn well that this is what Fudge has been up to, and that either there was no such owl or that it was sent way too late on purpose. He has evenso managed to thwart Fudge *and* throw it in his teeth. His mistake was about as "lucky" as Riddle's diary getting into Ginny Weasley's cauldron. HTH HAND -- Phil From arioth at peoplepc.com Mon Jul 26 12:56:55 2004 From: arioth at peoplepc.com (arioth1) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 12:56:55 -0000 Subject: half blood prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107716 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Fiona" wrote: > What do we know for sure about the HBP? > > JKR has confirmed its neither Harry nor Voldemort. > JKR said that it had been the working title for book two. > > My theory is that the HBP is Gilderoy Lockhart. > > JKR brought him back in book five, and it is possible to argue that > Gilderoy relates to a "Gilded King" and he's certainly foppish enough > to be like some Prince, well divorced from reality. > > Just a theory.... any opinions? My favorite theory is that the HBP is Justin Finch Fletchley. He is muggle-born. He was supposed to go to Eton, a college for the rich and royalty before being accepted at Hogwarts. I think this could be significant. Why would well-off, possibly royal muggles send their child to Hogwarts, which they presumably know little about instead of the prestigious Eaton? He was mentioned in the book 1 in the sorting ceremony. He is more prominently featured in book 2 where he was petrified by the basilisk. We are told that book 2 holds important clues to book 6. Ineed to reread book 2 again to ferret out some of those clues in this new context. Maybe I can come up with more compelling evidence. Ari From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Mon Jul 26 13:15:13 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 13:15:13 -0000 Subject: Will Harry muse or be too busy fighting? (was: When Harry met Sally) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107717 > SSSusan wrote: > > Back to one of your points, now IS the time for DD & others to come > clean...and STAY clean. If people know more about the what and the > why and the how--or about any history which can help Harry > understand--they NEED to lay it out there now. Harry's probably > already angry & resentful that this burden has fallen on him. We > know he's angry w/ DD. If DD & The Order want Harry to choose the > difficult path, they're going to have to SHOW him they're willing to > let him know whatever he needs to know now. No more secrets, no > more "saving you from pain," no more "someday, when you're ready." > The time is NOW, and if they're not forthcoming, I suspect Harry > will pull away further. > > Siriusly Snapey Susan boyd: We could have made the same arguments after each of the first 5 books, though. Certainly, after GoF it seemed so--that the WW would finally have to react to LV's return, and that DD would finally have to let Harry in on the whole thing. But neither happened. And with not 1, but 2 books left, JKR will likely continue her pattern of keeping a few salient points from us and, therefore, Harry. And I bet the WW STILL doesn't exactly welcome Harry with open arms. I agree that he'll still be a bit distanced emotionally from his friends. My guess is that either many in the WW will somehow blame Harry for LV's return, or LV and the DEs will target those close to him--making him a bit of a pariah (again). --boyd From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jul 26 13:18:15 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 13:18:15 -0000 Subject: half blood prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107718 Ari wrote: We are told that book 2 holds important clues to book > 6. Ineed to reread book 2 again to ferret out some of those clues in > this new context. Maybe I can come up with more compelling > evidence. > Potioncat: There is new information about the HBP on JKR's website. It sounds to me that the HBP (who ever it is) was not in CoS at all after she re-wrote it. She has left another "foreshadowing" comment. Potioncat: who is beginning to think Bellatrix is a Mary Sue for JKR. ;-) From cincimaelder at yahoo.com Mon Jul 26 13:18:25 2004 From: cincimaelder at yahoo.com (cincimaelder) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 13:18:25 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and The Lord of the Rings In-Reply-To: <20040726073416.27157.qmail@web25109.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107719 > Hans: > I posted a similar idea in post No. 104372, "Two Crazy Theories". Part of my > first theory was that Harry would take over Hagrid's job at the end. Alchemical Wedding of Christian > Rosycross, where CRC ends up being gatekeeper. I'm convinced humanity's spiritual > development is being led by people who have gone the Way of Liberation. > These same people have inspired Johan Andre? to write the Alchemical Wedding > and JK Rowling to write Harry Potter. They are also behind the really great Jo does not need to read the Alchemical Wedding to write > Harry Potter. There is a true spiritual development which every human being > will one day go when he's ready for it, > overwhelming compassion burns fiercely > in the heart of those who are nearing the final steps. In fact it is taught > in esoteric circles that the candidate for liberation can enter it in two > ways: facing forwards or facing backwards. Those who face forwards go > through the Gate of Saturn to continue their journey through all the planes > of the Holy Creation, never to return to the dualistic world. Those who face > backwards feel such a deep, gut-wrenching and overpowering sense of > compassion for the rest of humanity still caught in the web of delusion that > stay behind as gatekeepers for those who wish to undergo the process of > spiritual liberation. To some this choice may seem an anticlimax, but to > those who understand, there is nothing more beautiful and satisfying than > that the greatest of them all becomes the humblest servant through his own > choice and out of a deep compassion - for us. > Hans MAE now: I have to admit, I've never read "The Alchemical Wedding", although since joining this BB I have put it on my must read list. I do very much agree with several of your points. I do think HP is in the process of spiritual liberation. However, I would think that at the conclustion of the jouney Harry would be one of those who would face forward, but I'm just not sure JKR is going to have Harry die. I do think it is possible that Harry will go through the veil and return, but I'm not totally convinced of it. I think that there are similarities through all these books mentioned here, but that JKR may come up with a conclusion that is a surprise to us all. From ExSlytherin at aol.com Mon Jul 26 13:21:53 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 13:21:53 -0000 Subject: JKR Speaks: Arthur Weasly will NOT be next Minister of Magic Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107720 JKR has updated her web site again and says Arthur will not be the next Minister of Magic. Of course that may not mean he will never be MoM, but as I have always maintained, I doubt it. I love Arthur, but he's just not Minister material imo. So the question now is who will be? Someone we know already? Or a completely new character? It won't be DD as he has to remain at Hogwarts for the duration of the story. Who in the Ministry does that leave? Amelia Bones? Deloris Umbridge? (Heaven forbid!)....I'm just not coming up with any others right now...any thoughts? Cheers Mandy From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 26 13:35:36 2004 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:35:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry Potter and The Lord of the Rings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040726133536.2384.qmail@web25109.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107721 --- cincimaelder wrote: I have to admit, I've never read "The Alchemical Wedding", although since joining this BB I have put it on my must read list. Hans: The Alchymical Wedding is not really long enough to be described as a book. It's more like a long short-story. You can read it in about an hour. No one should be daunted by it. It's available here: http://www.levity.com/alchemy/frames.html Hans ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://www.allnewmessenger.com From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Mon Jul 26 13:38:35 2004 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 13:38:35 -0000 Subject: JKR Speaks: Arthur Weasly will NOT be next Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107722 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mandy" wrote: >>JKR has updated her web site again and says Arthur will not be the next Minister of Magic. >> ...snip... >>I'm just not coming up with any others right now...any thoughts? Cheers Mandy>> Inge: Try Lucius Malfoy? From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Mon Jul 26 14:07:48 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 09:07:48 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OT members ages-- please no one respond here. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107723 --Erin Gina, you could have found this out by reading the group's Admin File (which you are supposed to read before posting) at: http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Most of our members are over 18. Mature teenagers may enjoy the group, but we cannot, for legal reasons, accept members under the age of 13." Gina I DID read the admin file or I would not be posting, but I cannot see reading it every single day or memorizing every little detail :-) I just thought I read somewhere about it being 21+ because (and no offense to anyone) I may not have joined otherwise. I find the title "for grownups" misleading because 13 is nowhere near grownup. Is anyone aware of an actual "grown up" site? I think the views of adults vary greatly from that of school age persons. Gina - who is very sorry she asked. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Mon Jul 26 14:08:57 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 09:08:57 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Possibly OT members ages Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107724 udderpd I am 63 years young and I noticed that although Gina asked the question she did not tell us her age? TTFN Udder PenDragon Gina: Sorry about that! I am 24 years of age. Pleased to meet you! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Mon Jul 26 14:09:22 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:09:22 -0000 Subject: How should Harry deal with Snape? (was: Why Snape doesn't have to be human) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107725 > Dzeytoun wrote: > > All together, I think it is going to take a major event to make for > an opening between these two [Snape & Harry]. First of all, it will take large > revelations concerning the history between Snape and the Marauders, > as well as revelations about why Dumbledore trusts Snape. Secondly, > it will take a personal development on Harry's part which will > probably not entail him coming to respect Snape, but which will > likely render Snape a minor factor in his overall view of the world. > > Dzeytoun boyd: Can we at least agree that they've *both* been in the wrong? Snape's an unabashed git to Harry, and Harry suspects Snape of being ESE constantly. Anyway, I think JKR is serving us a lesson in morality here: Harry needs to learn to look past people's shortcomings & appearances to their real worth; ditto for Snape. And, assuming Snape is not a double agent for LV, Snape has been quite worthwhile from an OoP perspective--and has at least tried to save Harry on a few occasions. And Harry, despite being a rule-breaking, attention-hogging son-of-a-Potter (from Snape's perspective), has defeated LV and his henchmen on multiple occasions now. My guess is that JKR will set them up with a cataclismic event: the death of DD in book 6 (yes, one prediction I've made that will not change until proven wrong by canon). Harry will then need Snape as a guardian/teacher and to tell him the remaining secrets DD never revealed. Such as how he's supposed to go about killing LV, and what the gleam meant. Snape, meanwhile, will need Harry because he is the one weapon against LV. Snape will have to persuade him that he is not ESE!Snape, that Harry is not HopelessWithoutDD!Harry, and that they both have a common goal: defeating LV. Probably we'll get a little more Snape backstory here--juicy!--and maybe even see a pair of apologies. --boyd I just hope they don't hug! From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Jul 26 14:18:13 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:18:13 -0000 Subject: Two weeks worth... DD's curious timing in SS/PS & OOTP... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107726 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Phil Boswell" wrote: > "vmonte" wrote: > [snip] > > There is another strange moment like this during Harry's trial in > > OOTP: > > Page 139, U.S. version -- > > "I must have missed it," said Dumbledore cheerfully. "However, due > > to a lucky mistake I arrived at the Ministry three hours early, so > > no harm done." > > It's obvious that Fudge never sent an owl to Harry or DD. But DD's > > comment is curious? I don't think that he is lying; > [snip] Phil: > On the contrary, he is lying through his teeth, and enjoying every > second of it. > > Fudge knows damn well that the time and place of the Hearing were > changed particularly to prevent any interference by Dumbledore or > indeed anybody else on Harry's behalf, but he can't say anything > without admitting his attempted subterfuge. > > Dumbledore knows damn well that this is what Fudge has been up to, and > that either there was no such owl or that it was sent way too late on > purpose. He has evenso managed to thwart Fudge *and* throw it in his > teeth. Geoff: We had a short discussion on this way back arising out of questions about Percy's loyalty. You might like to call up messages 81021/81025/81030/81035/81055 which could interest you. From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Jul 26 14:26:45 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:26:45 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and The Lord of the Rings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107727 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dcgmck" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" > wrote: Geoff: > > Harry, although meeting the equivalents of the Nazgul and Shelob > > (Dementors and Aragog), has not received any physical injury from > > them. > dcgmck: > Physical injuries are superficial, Geoff: For Frodo, I would argue otherwise. It is the fact that the physical hurt ? coupled with the emotional effect ? which ultimately leads him to leave Middle-Earth for Valinor. Look at the descriptions in the chapter "The Grey Havens" "So he (Sam) was not at home in early March and did not know that Frodo had been ill. On the thirteenth of the month, Farmer Cotton found Frodo lying on his bed; he was clutching a white gem that hung on a chain about his neck and he seemed half in a dream .. One evening Sam came into the study and found his master looking very strange. He was very pale and his eyes seemed to see things far away. `What's the matter, Mr.Frodo?' said Sam. `I am wounded,' he answered, `wounded; it will never really heal.' But then he got up and the turn seemed to pass and he was quite himself the next day. IT was not until afterwards that Sam recalled that the date was October the sixth. Two years before on that day, it was dark in the dell under Weathertop Time went on and 1421 came in. Frodo was ill again in March but with a great effort he concealed it for Sam had other things to think about .. `Yes, I am coming,' said Frodo. `The Ring-bearers should go together.' `Where are you going, Master?' cried Sam though at last he understood what was happening. `To the Havens, Sam,' said Frodo `But,' said Sam and tears started in his eyes, `I thought you were going to enjoy the Shire, too, for years and years after all you have done.' `So I thought too, once. But I have been too deeply hurt, Sam. I tried to save the Shire and it has been saved but not for me ." OK, so some of the wounds were not "straight" physical ones ? the wound which Frodo suffered at Weathertop was from a bewitched knife and the point remained in the wound for seventeen days before Elrond found it but it is obvious form the above Tolkien canon that Frodo was still suffering after effects from these wounds which had apparently healed but were definitely far from superficial. Harry has had his physical wounds but they do not appear to have left lasting effects ? being de-boned by Lockhart, falling off his broom because of the Dementors for example. Perhaps his deepest wounds are emotional ones. > dcgmck: > I, too, have entertained the notion that Harry and Frodo are > representative Everymen progressing on their respective pilgrimages > through life. My only problem with the idea is that I can't help > noticing that each of these "poor" orphans seems to have a very > fortuitous inheritance with which to finance their journeys... Geoff: I don't see a problem. Christians on their pilgrimage through life start from very different situations. Some have money, some don't; some have charming personalities to start with, some don't. Some come from a Christian background where they are supported along the way; some come from backgrounds where they have had to find their faith and their way forwards which is a straight parallel with the Wizarding World where you have, say, the Weasley family supporting its children as they grow into wizardhood in contrast to Harry, whose magical ability is opposed by the Dursleys. Financially he may have a "fortuitous inheritance" but from a support point of view, he has a brick wall over which to climb. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 26 14:31:10 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:31:10 -0000 Subject: How should Harry deal with Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107728 > Kyntor previously: > >> And of course all the bad feelings between Harry and Snape is > completely Harry's fault. Snape has no culpability at all. << > > HunterGreen: > Of course not. I don't think anyone would try to make *that* case. > Clearly the *start* of the Harry/Snape rift is Snape's fault, he set > that down quite firmly in the first potions class, but since then > (five years later now), both of them are involved in the bad > feelings. Snape has his sarcasm and his unfair classroom politics, > and Harry has his not following rules, and occasionally not paying > attention in class or talking back. Alla: You are right, not many people argued that the start of Harry/Snape relationship was Harry's fault, although few do. BUT many , many people argue that even though Snape started all that, Harry should suddenly realise that Snape is a good guy. They are both involved in "bad feelings", because Snape made sure that Harry has those bad feelings towards him from the beginning. As Neri said , Harry is a Gryff and a hero, so I have no doubt that he will forgive Snape eventually, but I see his fault in this relationship as being minimal (except looking in the Pensieve of course, but event hat as I said many times, I understand perfectly) Kyntor: > >> You do not stop bullies by giving into them, you stop them by > standing up to them. Letting them have their way just reinforces > their behavior. << Huntergreen > Perhaps in the case of a pure schoolyard bully, but that's not what > Snape is, now is he? Actually, I'll go so far as to say standing up > for yourself doesn't always work (personal experience here - it can > just goad them). The other 'wisdom' about bullies is to stop them by > *ignoring* them. In the case of Harry and Snape, Harry "standing up > for himself" would appear as disrespect and insolence in Snape's > eyes. They are not peers or equals, Harry can't just talk back when > Snape insults him, it doesn't work that way. (even in the cases where > he has stood up for himself -- in PoA for example -- Snape always has > an answer anyway, doesn't work at all). > However, if Harry were to both ignore Snape (as in, not rise to his > bait), and not GIVE him a reason to needle him (such as not working > hard in class, or lying or blatently ignoring school rules), Snape > would perhaps get bored and give up. This could actually help Harry > out even if it *doesn't* get Snape to stop or change his behavior. If > he just ignores Snape, then maybe Snape won't annoy him so much, even > if he is still dripping with sarcasm, and trying to get at Harry. Alla: Oh, no, I disagree. As I said previously, I firmly believe that nothing will help Harry, no matter how much he tries to change his behaviour, untill Snape realises that Harry is not James. Therefore, I will be extremely dissapointed, if Harry stops standing up for himself. The fact that Snape is his superiour and a bully is twice as worse. I don't want Harry to take undeserved insults from Snape and just swallow them. If nothing else, it is good for his character not to be as submissive as Neville is in his interactions with Snape. Hopefully, after OOP, Neville will not be either. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 26 14:34:45 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:34:45 -0000 Subject: JKR website update Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107729 OK, Tom Riddle is NOT HBP. So, I will continue hoping that Lupin is. There is a very interesting answer about pure-bloods , half- bloods and muggle-borns. Alla From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Jul 26 14:37:52 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:37:52 -0000 Subject: half blood prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107730 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > Potioncat: > There is new information about the HBP on JKR's website. It sounds > to me that the HBP (who ever it is) was not in CoS at all after she > re-wrote it. She has left another "foreshadowing" comment. > > Potioncat: who is beginning to think Bellatrix is a Mary Sue for > JKR. ;-) This looks good. Just what a few of us have been banging on about - the Chamber still has significance and there was something about it that has nothing to do with the Basilisk or TR and his diary. Nice to have a hint that my in-built paranoia might be useful after all. Kneasy From lisa at faistudio.com Mon Jul 26 14:52:26 2004 From: lisa at faistudio.com (lisa graves) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:52:26 -0000 Subject: McNair connection Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107731 I was listening to an audio book on the way to work (had to break from listening to the HP audios over and over--- speaking of which, has anyone addressed the fact that Jim Dale is AMAZING?) Anyway... listening to the Audiobook "Hannibal" and something interesting came up. The author mentions something about the fact that the Abe Lincoln assassination conspirators were executed by hanging at Mt. McNair. I've looked online for an hour and can't find any information. Has anyone else made this connection. Please- go easy on me, we're all fans. From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jul 26 15:01:04 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:01:04 -0000 Subject: Ages again a new poll? Re: OT members ages-- please no one respond here. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107732 -Gina wrote:I just > thought I read somewhere about it being 21+ because (and no offense to > anyone) I may not have joined otherwise. I find the title "for grownups" > misleading because 13 is nowhere near grownup. Is anyone aware of an actual > "grown up" site? I think the views of adults vary greatly from that of > school age persons. > > Gina - who is very sorry she asked. Potioncat: Don't be sorry. I asked too, not so long ago. Because I think sometimes our ages affect how we see certain aspects of the story. With some pleasant guidence, I was directed to this site which is a poll of readers' ages: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/surveys?id=428071 It has a breakdown of our ages. I'm not sure how current it is now. And as a lot of us belong in the over 50 portion (clue), I think it would be interesting to start that poll over and see how current participants ages run. I'd suggest not stopping at 50...I think several of us are older than 50. There is a Harry Potter for Adults, which I found when I was first looking for this site... but "Adult content" and "Grownup Discussion" are not at all the same thing (blush). You will find that some posters will say, "Look it up." and some will say, "You'll find an interesting discusion about this at post #__________ " And those who aren't interested in what you have to say, don't have to read your posts. But the rest of us will. Welcome to the site! Potioncat (ever so much more than 20) > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From chrissilein at yahoo.com Mon Jul 26 15:07:30 2004 From: chrissilein at yahoo.com (Lady Of The Pensieve) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:07:30 -0000 Subject: JKR website update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107733 Hi, futhermore we learn at the updated page is, that Harry discovered in Chamber. Any ideas about what the discovery was in CoS? Chrissi Quote: The link I mentioned between books two and six does not, in fact, relate to the 'Half-Blood Prince' (because there is no trace left of the HBP storyline in 'Chamber'.) Rather, it relates to a discovery Harry made in 'Chamber' that foreshadows something that he finds out in 'Prince'. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > OK, Tom Riddle is NOT HBP. So, I will continue hoping that Lupin is. > > There is a very interesting answer about pure-bloods , half- bloods > and muggle-borns. > > > Alla From ExSlytherin at aol.com Mon Jul 26 15:11:42 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:11:42 -0000 Subject: JKR Speaks: Arthur Weasly will NOT be next Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107734 Mandy wrote: > JKR has updated her web site again and says Arthur will not be the > next Minister of Magic. ...snip... > I'm just not coming up with any others right now...any thoughts? > Cheers Mandy>> > Inge wrote: > Try Lucius Malfoy? Mandy again: Oh I have. He is a personal favorite for Minister for Magic. But Lucius doesn't work for the MoM, he just owns most of it. ;-) I was interested in looking at the potential candidates from inside the ministry. I don't know how the WW appoints their new ministers. I don't believe they are elected (not by the WW public at least), or if the potential candidates have to come from inside the ministry itself. If not, then Lucius, or any influential member of the WW would be high on the list of potential candidates. Only if Lucius Malfoy can get out of Azkaban without a scratch of course. However if Lucius doesn't emerge from Azkaban Fortress smelling of roses, all charges dropped, and a written apology from Minister Fudge himself, Mr. Malfoy isn't half a slippery as we've been lead to believe. Cheers Mandy From cincimaelder at yahoo.com Mon Jul 26 15:30:16 2004 From: cincimaelder at yahoo.com (cincimaelder) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:30:16 -0000 Subject: JKR Speaks: Arthur Weasly will NOT be next Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107736 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mandy" wrote: > Mandy wrote: > > JKR has updated her web site again and says Arthur will not be the > > next Minister of Magic. ...snip... > > I'm just not coming up with any others right now...any thoughts? > > Cheers Mandy>> > > > Inge wrote: > > Try Lucius Malfoy? > MAE Here: I don't think it will be Lucius. Even when VM was in power before, the MoM was on the side of the good guys. They may at times be misguided (as in book 5), but they know how bad it would be for the WW if VM wins. It may be someone brand new who we haven't met yet. The MoM may accept LM money, but they know he is not to be trusted. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Jul 26 15:37:39 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:37:39 -0000 Subject: Theory on James and Lilly Potters occupations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107737 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snow15145" wrote: snip > The main jest of what I was > trying to point out was that even though the wand chooses the wizard > somewhat like the sorting hat choosing the house, wouldn't > automatically foretell what subject they may have chosen to teach. > James didn't like the dark arts so why then would he teach it > especially when his wand is more suited for transfiguration, if he > were the dada teacher? My assumption on this would be; not that he > liked it or was suited for it but defense against it. > Kneasy: This raises an interesting point; is there a type of wand suited for the Dark Arts? An evil wand? Or is the wand just a tool that may or may not be best suited for various categories of magic? Such as Charms, Transfiguration etc. Probably the latter. It depends on the power and will of the user to a great extent. It seems to me that Dark Magic is mostly curses and hexes - negative charms if you like, and to teach DADA would require the demonstration of those curses so that the students could practice protection against them. A good 'charm' wand might be very useful in teaching DADA. > > Snow Puzzled: > Who worked for the Order for two years? I am a bit confused, if you > could elaborate on this please? > Kneasy: The Voldy attack on GH happened when Harry was about 15 months old. In the Pensieve Courtroom scene in GoF DD tells the Court that he has already given evidence that Snape "..rejoined our side before Voldemort's downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk." So Snape was spying for the Order *before* Voldy's fall. How long before is not absolutely certain, true - but the fact that he has been named in court as spying for the Order means that he could be a target for revenge attacks. A bit of inference - when Moody talks to Harry in OoP I get the impression that most of the successes the Order has is in the two years before Voldy's downfall. The result of Snape's activities? Anyway, once his spying becomes public DD employs him at Hogwarts, just as he employed Sybil - to keep both of them out of the hands of people who might want to ask them some awkward questions. Now - especially for those enamoured of the 'life debt' concept. Suppose Snape was the eavesdropper that was thrown out of the Hogs Head. Suppose he was reluctant to tell Voldy about the Potters because of that debt. Suppose the feeling that he owed James and that he knew that Voldy would hunt down the family was one of the reasons why he left Voldy and offered to spy for DD. Possible? Not a speculation that I feel particularly comfortable with, but it might appeal to somebody. > Snow: > James' occupation and Lily's "have been" purposely kept from not only > Harry but also the reader, so no matter whether James was a teacher > or an Auror or a lazy bum we still don't know. In the end, the "why > didn't anyone tell Harry" is still the why? Whatever it is that James > did, I will assume that it must be of importance to have kept it a > secret for so long. > Kneasy: Yep. But what could be that important about a job that it must be kept secret? If they were teachers, Aurors, a travelling sales team for Zonko Products, so what? How can that affect the future story arc? Time to get the grey matter in gear. From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Jul 26 15:43:40 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:43:40 -0000 Subject: Snape's part in death of Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107738 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "theadimail" wrote: > Hi, > I read the last portions of Book5 yesterday and the actions of > Snape looked to me as highly suspicious. > According to Dumbledore, Snape first alerted the crowd at the > Grimmauld Place that Harry might be thinking that Sirius was taken hostage by Voldemort at the ministry and then went to the Forest for searching Harry. Now this explanation raises several doubts. > Firstly, why did Snape take so long to alert the Order? Assuming that the guys who appeared at the ministry for Harry's resuce started on the job immediately without dilly-dallying makes one ask, why were they so late? < Snape contacts the Order twice. "He, like you, attempted to contact Sirius at once[...]Professor Snape found that Sirius was alive and safe at Grimmauld Place." "When, however, you did not return from your trip into the Forest with Dolores Umbridge, Professor Snape grew worried that you still believed Sirius to be a captive of Lord Voldemort's. He alerted certain Order members at once. " --OOP 37 The delay arose because Snape found Sirius alive and well at Grimmauld Place. Assuming Snape next found the hexed Slytherins in the DADA office, they would tell him that Potter and his pals had been caught attempting to use the Floo network and had then taken Umbridge into the forest to show her where the 'weapon' was. Snape would conclude that Harry had been trying to contact Grimmauld Place, and that he must have failed, since if he had succeeded he would no longer believe that Sirius was captive. Snape would recognize that 'the weapon' was a subterfuge directed at trapping Umbridge. Snape would figure that if Umbridge pressed Harry too far, she would be the one in need of rescuing, and of course he would be right. So, allowing Harry an hour to walk into the forest and deal with Umbridge, and another hour to make his way back, it would be at least two hours before Snape began wondering why Harry hadn't returned. At that point, when Harry was probably at the Ministry already, Snape contacted the Order for the second time. Those who were there went to the Ministry at once. Snape asked that Sirius stay behind to notify Dumbledore of what had happened. Snape would ask himself why, if Harry had failed to contact Grimmauld Place before, he hadn't come back to the school and tried again. But if Harry did succeed in contacting Grimmauld Place then someone at Headquarters had deceived him. Sirius is the one person it can't have been, therefore Sirius is the one person Snape can trust to stay behind and tell Dumbledore what had happened. Of course there was't time to explain all this to Sirius. Sirius, knowing nothing of Snape's suspicions, delegated the task of informing Dumbledore to Kreacher, and went to the Ministry to save Harry. Like Dumbledore, I refuse to believe that Snape's taunts had anything to do with that. Sirius thought that Harry was worth dying for, period. Harry can't bear to think of that, and has shifted the blame to Snape. Pippin From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Mon Jul 26 15:48:51 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 10:48:51 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Longbottoms' Secret Keeper Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107739 "esmith222002" If they were not protected, this suggests that DD knew that Voldemort would choose Harry. Is this because there is something about the Potters that we don't know Gina: isn't there a place in one of the books where DD says that LV considered Harry his equal even before he was born and that it has something to do with both being half bloods? This along with Harry thinking Riddles name familiar makes me wonder what the history with LV or TR was with the Potters. Gina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cincimaelder at yahoo.com Mon Jul 26 16:00:14 2004 From: cincimaelder at yahoo.com (cincimaelder) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:00:14 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and The Lord of the Rings In-Reply-To: <20040726133536.2384.qmail@web25109.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107740 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Hans Andr?a wrote: You can read it in about an hour. No one > should be daunted by it. It's available here: > http://www.levity.com/alchemy/frames.html > > Hans > MAE now: Wow, that web site is jam packed with info. Can you point me in the direction of the most appropriate text? From tigerfan41 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 26 16:16:26 2004 From: tigerfan41 at yahoo.com (Darrell Harris) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 09:16:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 4991 In-Reply-To: <1090852512.11203.48314.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040726161626.86647.qmail@web52510.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107741 Message: 3 Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 13:38:35 -0000 From: "Inge" Subject: Re: JKR Speaks: Arthur Weasly will NOT be next Minister of Magic --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mandy" wrote: >>JKR has updated her web site again and says Arthur will not be the next Minister of Magic. >> ...snip... >>I'm just not coming up with any others right now...any thoughts? Cheers Mandy>> Inge: Try Lucius Malfoy Isn't he in the slammer about now? _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Jul 26 16:33:05 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:33:05 -0000 Subject: How should Harry deal with Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107742 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kyntor70" wrote: > I would deal with Snape quite differently that Pippin would. First, I would go through official channels. I would request a meeting with Dumbledore and McGonagall requesting that they take of the situation. I would tell them that not only is his behavior unethical and unprofessional, it is also unacceptable. Snape is not only mistreating Harry, he is also setting a very bad example for the Slytherins to follow. His Slytherins are going to believe that being biased and a bully is totally acceptable behavior. > I think this part of Kyntor's advice is very good. Perhaps Dumbledore and McGonagall would explain to Harry why Snape's behavior is not considered unethical and unprofessional -- at least not to the point where it would get Snape sacked or engender any public indignation on Harry's behalf. They might also tell Harry that if he exposes Snape's previous service to Voldemort, Dumbledore will just have to explain again why Snape got off. At that point Snape is going to look like a hero, especially after Voldemort murders him, and Harry is going to look like a snivelling brat who can't take his medicine. And Voldemort will be laughing his head off. One supposes that McGonagall would tell Harry to learn to keep his head down, and Dumbledore would say that Harry needs to learn to ignore Snape's insults. To paraphrase his advice to Hagrid: "Harry, not a week has passed since I became Headmaster of this school, when I haven't had at least one owl telling me I'm a barmy old codger or an obsolete old dingbat. But what should I do? Spend all my time in answering them?" I agree that submitting to bullies is bad, but exactly for that reason, confrontation is more advisable if you can win. Losing forces *you* to submit and gratifies the bully. There are times when fighting a losing battle is a noble undertaking, but Snape is not an ogre to be fought at all costs, merely a petty tyrant on a very limited scale. He doesn't even think the world should be run by the likes of him. OTOH and IMO, there is nothing submissive about telling the truth, or in respecting the office of Professor and obeying the rules of the school *you* have chosen to attend. Doing those things would not show that Harry is buying into Snape's opinion of him; it would show that Harry is ignoring it. Harry is not an eleven-year-old friendless orphan anymore, and it is time he unhinged his self-respect from Snape's good opinion. Pippin From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 26 16:35:51 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:35:51 -0000 Subject: JKR and The Death of A Theory. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107743 Recently, we have been debating whether JKR's statement that the Half Blood Prince is NOT Harry or Voldemort was a devious way of planting the clue that it was indeed Tom Riddle. There are hints in the book, that we could treat Tom and Voldy as separate entities. However - http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/faq_view.cfm?id=57 JKR flat out said, that it is NOT Tom Riddle. If it's not Voldy then it's not Tom either. Darn, I sort of liked that theory. Steve/Asian_lovr2 From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Mon Jul 26 16:37:30 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:37:30 -0000 Subject: half blood prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107744 > Kneasy wrote: > This looks good. > Just what a few of us have been banging on about - the Chamber > still has significance and there was something about it that has > nothing to do with the Basilisk or TR and his diary. > > Nice to have a hint that my in-built paranoia might be useful after all. Neri: I think you stretch JKR's words a bit, Kneasy. There is no indication at all that the thing that has "no connection with the Basilisk or TR and the diary" is in the chamber (the place). I think you misinterpret the sentence "the link I mentioned between books 2 and 6 does not in fact relate to the Half-Blood Prince... Rather, it relates to a discovery Harry made in 'Chamber' that foreshadows something he finds out in 'Prince' ". JKR clearly means here "Chamber" the book and not necessarily "chamber" the place. Throughout this answer she calls the six books by her favorite pet names: "Stone", "Chamber", "Azkaban", "Goblet", "Phoenix" and "Prince". I think this misunderstanding had started since that old interview about the DVD of the second movie, where many readers mixed "Chamber" the book with "chamber" the place, and thus the whole story of "something small in the chamber" was born. I personally tend to think that the foreshadowing discovery was the Parseltongue. In HBP Harry is going to discover many other powers he got from Voldy. Neri (wondering if he is now entitled to LOON membership to go with his FEATHERBOA membership) From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 26 16:50:23 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:50:23 -0000 Subject: How should Harry deal with Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107745 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: snip. > OTOH and IMO, there is nothing submissive about telling the > truth, or in respecting the office of Professor and obeying the > rules of the school *you* have chosen to attend. Alla: No, there is nothing submissive in doing that, BUT for example when teacher starts insulting your dead parents (No matter how right this teacher turns out to be ), it is not the time to be quiet. Pippin: > Doing those things would not show that Harry is buying into > Snape's opinion of him; it would show that Harry is ignoring it. Alla: Well, maybe. But, the question was how should Harry deal with Snape and I don't think that would help to improve Snape behaviour. From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 26 17:00:12 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 17:00:12 -0000 Subject: Books 6 & 7 - tragedy or triumph? In-Reply-To: <20040720072958.32859.qmail@web25107.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107746 Hans Andr?a wrote: [snip] > I don't know why Jesus' crucifixion is regarded as such torture. Well, this might seem obvious, but having the skin shredded off your back before being forced to carry your own cross (albeit with some help) to the place of your ultimate execution, then having sodding great nails hammered through you, then having to hang on them until you either bleed to death or suffocate, with some Roman grunt sticking a spear into you just to check that you're done and dusted ... that'll ping my "torture" detector every time. And that's considering merely the physical aspect of the experience: if you're a Christian like me there's a whole 'nother angle to it, whereby you are separated from your Father God, with whom up till now you have been integrally bound, and there is a real risk that you're screwed for eternity, because if there's no risk, the whole thing is a pointless exercise ... at this point that detector melts down and trickles off the table. HTH HAND -- Phil who really wishes Yahoo!Groups had a "Kill Thread" option and who also wonders whether an equivalent comment about any other religious figure would be regarded as "fair game"? and who wonders if anyone's twigged that he was *really* offended by that particular remark? From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Mon Jul 26 17:20:34 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 13:20:34 -0400 Subject: JKR Speaks: Arthur Weasly will NOT be next Minister of Magic Message-ID: <000e01c47334$ddc81ef0$2ec2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 107747 Mandy said: >>JKR has updated her web site again and says Arthur will not be the next Minister of Magic. >> ...snip... >>I'm just not coming up with any others right now...any thoughts? Cheers Mandy>> Inge: "Try Lucius Malfoy?" DuffyPoo now: Lucius Malfoy is a known DE (reported so in the Quibbler article which was reprinted in the Daily Prophet). Also, he's currently having a short rest in Azkaban. I say short because I don't think any of them will be there for long - there are no Dementors there anymore after all. I do think he will have a hard time getting Fudge to let him go on a technicality this time as Fudge knows that LM was in the Death Chamber bound by DD's Anti-Disapparition Jinx. Fool me once, shame on me, fool me twice....well, you all know the rest. Who it could be? I have no idea, I haven't had time to think about it. Hopefully NOT Percy Weasley. It is his aim, according to Ron: " 'Course, he's very ambitious, Percy, he's got it all planned out...he wants to be Minister of Magic...' Ron told Harry and Hermione..... I'm now going back to read CoS again to see if I can find out what Harry's *discoveries* were in it. JKR says HBP will be based on one of Harry's discoveries in CoS foreshadowing what he finds out in HBP. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From greatelderone at yahoo.com Mon Jul 26 17:33:22 2004 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 17:33:22 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and The Lord of the Rings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107748 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "goldfoy" wrote: > * In both works the "Dark Wizard" has suffered a defeat which has > reduced them to a spirit state, both stories revolve around their > attempt to regain corporeal form and their full power. GEO: Sauron already has regained his corporeal form in the main body of the LOTR novel. On the other hand, Voldemort only regains his body half way into the HP books. > or the character who would be expected to play a leading role in the > opposing the "Dark Wizard" but in the event proves to be totally > inadequate (Denethor/Cornelius Fudge). GEO: How can you even compare the two? Fudge totally ignored the threat of Voldemort and tried to silence those that spoke out while Denethor's only major mistakes were in overestimating how strong his bloodline was and probably listening to Sauron, but he took an active hand in opposing Sauron g Sauron unlike Fudge for instance. > Having not fulfilled the terms of the prophecy Harry Potter loses his > magical powers and has to go and make his way in the world of > muggles, a situation eased by the gold inherited from his parents and > Sirius Black. GEO: What? How would he lose his powers by not fulfilling the prophecy? > The book ends as it began with Harry Potter in exile which seems to > be a natural and satisfying conclusion to the story, though this > ending would arguably be more C.S. Lewis than Tolkien. GEO: Rowling is neither Lewis or Tolkien. > I believe that the parallels between the two works will be reinforced > in Book 6 when Cornelius Fudge is replaced as Minister for Magic by > someone who appears at first sight to be a most unlikely candidate > for the job. When we first meet Denethor's replacement it as the > disreputable, travel stained, Strider, not the noble born Aragorn. > Again a superficial similarity but still worth noting. > And don't forget, it's Sam who gets the girl, not Frodo GEO: And you're ignoring the fact that Harry isn't a direct parallel of Frodo. IMO, he also has bits of Aragorn in him being the one who has been a thorn in the dark lord's plans and being raised in secrecy (Rivendell, Dursleys) away from their heritage. Sam may end up with Rosie Cotton, but Hermione is hardly Rosie Cotton seeing how she actually plays a incredibly large role in the HP novels in contrast to Rosie Cotton who only appear a couple of times and is nothing, but a minor background character. If we're going to cast the HP characters into LOTR roles then I'd say that Hermione is probably most like Eowyn. From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Mon Jul 26 17:38:00 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 26 Jul 2004 17:38:00 -0000 Subject: New information about HBP on JKR's site Message-ID: <20040726173800.20458.qmail@webmail9.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107749 - Potioncat: - There is new information about the HBP on JKR's website. It sounds - to me that the HBP (who ever it is) was not in CoS at all after she - re-wrote it. She has left another "foreshadowing" comment. Amey: She says that the *HBP was not at all a part of story of Riddle Diary and Basilisk, there is no trace of HBP left in CoS*. Also, *TR is not HBP*. So that dashes at least 2 of the theories mentioned here. But one important thing is *it relates to a discovery Harry made in CoS that foreshadows something he finds out in Prince*. So I am starting on finding out the discoveries he made in CoS (apart from anything about TR?s diary and TR): 1. he is parseltongue 2. Slytherin started the actual Pure blood mania 3. LV passed some of his powers to Harry in GH 4. he is a true Gryffindor (pulled out the sword from Hat) Thinking of all remaining theories discussed here about HBP, point no.1 & 2 tell us nothing except pointing to Slytherin (as Basilisk is King of Serpents). But as HBP is no way connected to Basilisk, I think we can rule this out (I am not ruling out Slytherin as HBP). Point no.3 is discussed in more or less detail in all the books after CoS, but CoS is where we read this first. But I doubt what it means here as both Harry and LV are not HBP. Maybe the HBP is a snake, or snake animagus. Point no. 4 is again not that good, just mentioned in book for showing that Harry is true Gryffindor. It tells nothing about Godric Gryffindor, but in book, we learn that Slytherin and Gryffindor had a fight on the pure blood issue, and so Slytherin left. (I am too tired right now to make sense of what this point means). I think I will be reading CoS again now to get all discoveries Harry makes. Any additions anybody???? Amey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Mon Jul 26 18:12:24 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:12:24 -0000 Subject: Snape's part in death of Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107750 > Pippin wrote: > Snape would recognize that 'the weapon' was a subterfuge > directed at trapping Umbridge. Snape would figure that if > Umbridge pressed Harry too far, she would be the one in need > of rescuing, and of course he would be right. > Neri: So Snape figured that Umbridge is the one who needs rescuing, although she had the wand, while Harry and Hermione were wandless. Either Snape has a lot of respect to Harry's abilities, or very little respect to Umbridge abilities, or both. > So, allowing Harry an hour to walk into the forest and deal with > Umbridge, and another hour to make his way back, it would be at > least two hours before Snape began wondering why Harry hadn't > returned. > Neri: Slightly irresponsible, IMO, especially if we remember the level of security that the Order had kept around Harry in the beginning of the year. Two students went with the furious Umbridge into the dangerous Forbidden Forest, and Snape just sits and waits two hours for them to return? Is it possible that DD didn't tell him that Harry is "the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord"? Or that he did not conclude by himself that Harry is important after all those Occlumency lessons? And isn't the Forbidden Forest outside of the Hogwarts protections? Any number of DEs (or Voldy himself for that matter) can easily apparate in it and hide in it, even if we forget for a moment about Umbridge and the usual resident population of centaurs and acromantulas. Allow me to guess that any other member of the Order, in Snape's place, whould have grabbed a broom immediately after checking on Sirius in HQ, put a dissillusment spell on himself and went after Umbridge, Harry and Hermione. If Ron and the rest could track Harry in the middle of the forest on foot, Snape on a broom could have found them much faster. DD maybe trusts Snape, but he should not trust him to act responsibly whenever Harry is involved. Neri From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Jul 26 18:35:24 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:35:24 -0000 Subject: How should Harry deal with Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107751 > Alla: > > No, there is nothing submissive in doing that, BUT for example when teacher starts insulting your dead parents (No matter how right this teacher turns out to be ), it is not the time to be quiet.< Correct me if I'm wrong, but has Snape *ever* mentioned Harry's parents in the classroom? Snape's entitled to his personal opinion as expressed in the The Shrieking Shack and Grimmauld Place, and certainly inside his own thoughts (where Harry intruded without permission.) The closest Snape came to it was when Harry had just told Snape five lies in a row about not being in Hogsmead. (PoA- ch. 14) T. Agreed, Snape lost it, but I can understand why. The truth was desperately important, not least because the way that Harry got *out * of the castle just might be the way that Sirius is getting in. It was not the time to be concerned about Harry's feelings. We know there are channels to use when a teacher behaves unacceptably. Draco used them against Hagrid. Harry could have complained to the board of governors. Snape even invited him to go to Dumbledore. But of course Harry couldn't do that because he'd been breaking rules for no good reason and didn't want to take his medicine. Tough. You have a good point that Snape needs to stop seeing Harry as his father. But IMO, actions speak louder than words. If Harry wants Snape to see that he's not arrogant, he might try demonstrating a little humility. That is not the same thing as being humiliated, and I would like to see Harry realize that sometime. I agree there would be justice in Snape improving first. OTOH, what if he doesn't? Should Harry decide to spend his whole life waiting for Snape to make the first move? What about being pro-active? Or at least realizing that Snape is going to stay at Hogwarts and Harry is going to leave--this too shall pass. Pippin From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Jul 26 18:37:54 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:37:54 -0000 Subject: half blood prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107752 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > I think you stretch JKR's words a bit, Kneasy. There is no indication > at all that the thing that has "no connection with the Basilisk or TR > and the diary" is in the chamber (the place). I think you > misinterpret the sentence "the link I mentioned between books 2 and 6 > does not in fact relate to the Half-Blood Prince... Rather, it > relates to a discovery Harry made in 'Chamber' that foreshadows > something he finds out in 'Prince' ". JKR clearly means > here "Chamber" the book and not necessarily "chamber" the place. > Throughout this answer she calls the six books by her favorite pet > names: "Stone", "Chamber", "Azkaban", "Goblet", "Phoenix" > and "Prince". I think this misunderstanding had started since that > old interview about the DVD of the second movie, where many readers > mixed "Chamber" the book with "chamber" the place, and thus the whole > story of "something small in the chamber" was born. > > I personally tend to think that the foreshadowing discovery was the > Parseltongue. In HBP Harry is going to discover many other powers he > got from Voldy. > Of course I stretch JKR's words! Doesn't everybody? We'd never get anywhere if we accepted them purely on face value. What did we discover in CoS? Dobby Borgin and Burkes Lockhart Flying Ford Anglia Parseltongue Moaning Myrtle Aragog The Chamber Tom Riddle (separate from Voldy) Gryffindor's sword Transferred powers Since then Dobby's been all over the books like a rash. Scrub Dobby. B&B is a possibility - that's been discussed before, particularly the 'Hand of Glory' artifact. Lockhart - he could come back, and I've marked him as a bad'un, though I doubt he's royalty. FFA - not relevant, I think. Moaning Myrtle - JKR has said that MM will re-appear in later books. She's more or less a permanent fixture in that bathroom of hers. And her bathroom contains the entrance to what? The Chamber. Aragog - hmm, could reappear. I fancy Ron to end up as a dessicated husk in one of his webs, one of these fine days. The Chamber - still there, it seems to have been key in Tom's development and Salazar built it for a purpose. You can bet that his heir was going to inherit a lot more than just over-grown Medusoid fish-bait. What else is down there? Parseltongue and other Voldy powers have been a background rumble for 3 books now ( particularly the last book; all that mind link stuff) and I have difficulty tying these in with somebody else, i.e. this Half Blood Prince. If HPB refers not to Harry, TR or Voldy, why would those powers be an important link to a third character? Unless that character was Salazar himself - which would bring us back to the Chamber again. Gryffindor's sword - unknown significance. On the face of it there's not a great deal to choose from. Mind you, it could refer to something else entirely. But whether or no HBP is connected to one of the above or Colin Creevey's cat, I'm still firmly convinced that the Chamber still has a part to play before the end. Kneasy From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 26 18:51:46 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:51:46 -0000 Subject: How should Harry deal with Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107754 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" > wrote: snip. > > If Harry wants Snape to see that he's not arrogant, he might try > > demonstrating a little humility. That is not the same thing as > > being humiliated, and I would like to see Harry realize that > > sometime. I agree there would be justice in Snape improving > > first. OTOH, what if he doesn't? > > > > Alla: What Snape perceives as exercise in humility, Harry can easily see as humiliation, IMO. > Well, if Snape does not improve first, I already said what will be > the ultimate justice IMO - > > I want Harry to save Snape's life, not vice versa and for Snape to > realize that he has a debt to Potter again. > > If Harry survives at the end, he indeed will leave Hogwarts. Let > Snape suffer that he cannot fulfill his life-debt again. Pippin: Should Harry decide to spend his whole life waiting for Snape to > make the first move? What about being pro-active? Alla: Being pro-active on that one? May be, but out of Harry's good will, not because he has an obligation to do so. From EyeMelodius at hotmail.com Mon Jul 26 18:56:37 2004 From: EyeMelodius at hotmail.com (annunathradien) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:56:37 -0000 Subject: Harry & Aragorn musings (was HP & LOTR)-LONG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107755 dcgmck: > > I, too, have entertained the notion that Harry and Frodo are > representative Everymen progressing on their respective pilgrimages > through life. My only problem with the idea is that I can't help > noticing that each of these "poor" orphans seems to have a very > fortuitous inheritance with which to finance their journeys... I'm sure the following comparisons have all been discussed before (although doing a search, I can't seem to find them). I've read many of the comparisons of Harry and Frodo here as well as other places. I can certainly understand them and they are considerable. However, I've always wondered and more prominently after reading OOTP, if Harry really can be exclusively or even prominently be likened to Frodo. I do see some striking resemblances between Harry and Aragorn as well. There are (prophecied) roles set out for them before either are born and both have understandable difficulties in accepting these predetermined roles. Both their mothers held very important roles in their lives (Lily's sacrifice which brought Harry to his Aunt's doorstep, Gilraen took Aragorn to live with Elrond for protection/guidance). Harry lived in exile for his protection, as did Aragorn. Aragorn and Harry live at the cusp of two worlds (although Elrond loved Aragorn like a son, the Dursleys - in contrast - seemed to hate Harry). Harry is considered a "half-blood" in the WW, Aragorn is of the Dunedain (descendants of elves and men). In both LOTR and HP, the appearances of Harry and Aragorn are given notice and are also somewhat similar. Both have a rather dark appearance. Both are described somewhat filthy, even sloven, "foul" as Frodo called Aragorn. Harry has his perpetually messy hair and clothes always too big for him. At the beginning of OOTP, we're told Harry hasn't bathed himself for three days (yuck). Yet both Aragorn and Harry can be described as majestic, strikingly handsome, at times. Harry in his green dress robes (Yule Ball) that match his penetrating green eyes. Aragorn/Elessar in his kingly garb or when he was made over by Galadriel that gave him such a stunning appearance he looked like an Elf (when he finally won Arwen's heart). In LOTR, there was a Seer (Malbeth?) who made two prophecies of Isildur's line, one of which described Aragorn's calling of the dead (something only the rightful king could do, hence was also indirectly a foreshadowing of the return of the king and fulfilling his duty). In HP, there are two accurate prophecies made about Harry's life by Trelawney. This might also seem pretty weak but I'll throw it on the pile, but Trelawney stated in OOTP, in hysterics, that Harry wasn't going to die but lived to an old age, have 12 kids and become Minister of Magic. Aragorn (due to being Dunedain) lived a life longer than normal men, had many children and, of course, had ascended to the throne of Gondor and unified Middle Earth. Unity is extremely important element in both LOTR and HP. Elessar eventually united Middle Earth in the Third Age. In HP it's partly eluded as a sign of ultimate victory, due to this unity lost a 1000 years ago during the Founders time (OOTP Sorting Hat song, "And never since the founders four were whittled down to three have the Houses been united as they once were meant to be"). Frodo had Sting, which had been his "uncle" Bilbo's sword, it warns the bearer of approaching enemies (Orcs). One could liken this to Godric Gryffindor's sword coming to Harry in a time of need in COS. However, Narsil or Anduril is the King's sword, passed down the line of Kings from Elendil ultimately to Aragorn (as Anduril). Gryffindor could be considered a sort of King, Gryffindor's sword seemingly can only go to the hand of a "true Gryffindor" per Dumbledore's words (starting the possible implications of Harry as the Heir of Gryffindor). Elendil to Aragorn. Gryffindor to Harry. Aragorn had been an Heir, so might Harry? Harry also seems to be presented much more as an overt fighter / warrior, which always brought me to mind more of Aragorn as compared to Frodo. Frodo simply accepts what he needs to do and does it, bearing the weight of it, and gradually deteriorated, by it. Harry, especially in OOTP, resists his fate, not unlike Aragorn wandering Middle Earth before finally being forced - more or less - to face his destiny. Harry and Aragorn are also seemingly trained (or training themselves) to prepare what is set out before them, even before Harry knew of the Prophecy he had been a fighter. Not unlike Aragorn. Of course, I fluctuate between Harry and Ron being more likened to Aragorn. Aragorn and Ron do share a birthday (March 1). The Weasley "pureblood" status could be considered something like royalty. The Weasleys had been in Gryffindor for ages. There's also the "Weasley is Our King" song from OOTP. However, retaining the LOTR Kings comparison, I also see similarities with Theoden King and Ron. Knight & King (Ron in the chess game and the Draco's mocking song... Theoden had been a young noble warrior prior becoming king and corrupted by Grima/Saruman). Their lack of confidence. Ron hasn't been influenced by the evil, as Theoden in LOTR, in any form, but his sister Ginny certainly has. Incidentally, Theoden raised his sister's children, Eowyn and Eomer, like his own after their parents died. Ron's pet had been Scabbers, aka the traitor Peter Pettigrew, aka "Wormtail". Theoden's chief advisor, unfortunately, had been Grima "Wormtongue". Rohan's dwindling during their King's corruption could possibly be symbolic of the Weasleys poverty... a weakened kingdom = the Weasleys as the lower caste ("blood traitors") of the pureblood families? Ginny also holds some similarities to Eowyn. The symbol of Rohan is a White Horse, Ron has had two wands and both of which had unicorn ("The Little 'White Horse'") tail cores. If I were really grasping, look at the name Rohan... Ro(ha)n... Ron. Rohan (Ron?) and Gondor (Harry?) - the power of the world of men, rulers of the Fourth Age - are inevitably joined against the threat of the shadow, aka Sauron (Voldemort). The problem I always with a definitive LOTR / HP parallel, or any literary/mythological parallel, is that JKR is likely taking inspirations from several sources and nothing specifically eluding towards LOTR. Although some of the similarities are intriguing and spark some interesting discussions. annunathradien From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Mon Jul 26 18:55:57 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:55:57 -0000 Subject: How should Harry deal with Snape? (was: Why Snape doesn't have to be human) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107756 SSSusan: >>> I like this question of Neri's, and I think it just might serve Harry well if he were to consider it very seriously. I can understand your reaction, Alla, but I don't know that I agree with you. We've seen very little indication that Snape is interested in changing. So if a change is going to occur between the two, I think it just might have to come from an effort of Harry's. What could it hurt for Harry to TRY this tack? Not a thing. The bigger question, I think, is: Is it *possible* for a 16-year-old, filled with anger and frustration, convinced this man truly loathes him, to set all that aside and say, "NO. I will not feed the cycle by being a berk to him. I will not give him reason any more to fail me, to sneer at me, to belittle me. I will show him that I understand we MUST work together." <<< Dzeytoun replied: > I understand the logic behind this, but I have three main > objections. First of all, such a solution to the Snape/Harry > dilemma would imply that the way to deal with bullies is to submit > to them, which is a dangerous precedent. SSSusan: Some of us believe that is precisely what one does do. As another here posted, looking a bully straight in the eye and calmly agreeing to do something he demands of you sometimes stops them cold. Dzeytoun: > Secondly, it would be deeply unsatisfying. I realize that the last > is a purely subjective statement, but I think I speak for a large > number of people when I say that I will be extremely dissatisfied > if Snape's behavior does not come home to roost in a very > meaningful way. Harry proving he is the better man by becoming > a "model" student, or undertaking that behavior just to cooperate > with Snape for the good of the Order, just doesn't cut it - if no > other reason than that such a plotline would be so very trite and > stale. SSSusan: As you say, this is a subjective view, and I just don't agree with it. For one thing, just bec. Harry might set aside his anger, loathing & resentment in order to work w/ Snape, it doesn't mean Snape's behavior might not "come home to roost" as you've suggested. An adjustment in their behavior towards one another doesn't necessarily equal a cancellation of all that's come before. Also, saying Harry would be doing this "just for the good of the Order" seems a bit of an understatement for me. *IF* such a thing as I described initially comes to fruition [and remember, it was just a "what if" response to Neri's question of what Harry could possibly do], then I'd argue it would/could only come after Harry had come to the understanding that the entire Wizarding World is at stake, that there are certain things which MUST be accomplished in order to stop Voldy, and that at least one small part of that will require his managing to work with Snape. Dzeytoun: > The most important objection, however, is that the time for this > approach has already come and gone. IF someone like Dumbledore or > Lupin (or best of all, Sirius) had approached Harry with this idea > BEFORE the events of OOTP, I suppose it might have had a shot. But > now Harry's feelings for Snape have gone past the stage of anger, > resentment, or even rage, and settled into cold hatred. Observe > his response to Snape at the end of OOTP. It was nothing if not > coldly polite. He did not fume or argue, he did not even waste > much energy feeling resentful after McGonagall intervened and sent > him outside. He just felt icy hatred for Snape, period. SSSusan: I don't see why it's come & gone, though. You're quite right that it might have been more easily accomplished if DD, Lupin or Sirius had counseled Harry on this, but I don't think all possibility is gone. In fact, and maybe surprisingly, I think that icy hatred might work *very well* to get Harry to the point where he can do this. Maybe I'm weird, but I think when he's hopping mad, filled with fiery indignation and rage, he CAN'T see reason. When a person feels *icy* hatred, it's somehow calmer, leaving room for a little rationality to enter in. I mean, it's "hotheads" who make rash, angry decisions, right? Dzeytoun: > Harry honestly believes that Snape had a hand in Sirius' death > because of Snape's behavior during Occlumency lessons and his > goading of Sirius at Grimmauld Place. > > All together, I think it is going to take a major event to make for > an opening between these two. First of all, it will take large > revelations concerning the history between Snape and the Marauders, > as well as revelations about why Dumbledore trusts Snape. > Secondly, it will take a personal development on Harry's part which > will probably not entail him coming to respect Snape, but which > will likely render Snape a minor factor in his overall view of the > world. SSSusan: I don't quite see why there would have to be a lot of revelation about the Snape/Marauder history, though I agree with you that a more complete understanding of why DD trusts Snape would help Harry towards this. I agree also that for this ever to happen between Harry & Snape, it *would* take personal development on Harry's part. That is precisely what I think will happen. I've no prediction about how long it will take, but I think it really might come. Will forgiveness be a part of it? I'm not sure, at least not at first. I guess to sum up, I put a lot of faith in Harry's ability to SET ASIDE some things [like blame & hatred] in order to focus on the major task of defeating Voldy. We may just disagree on this, though, Dzeytoun. Adding further to this discussion, boyd submitted the following: >>boyd: Anyway, I think JKR is serving us a lesson in morality here: Harry needs to learn to look past people's shortcomings & appearances to their real worth; ditto for Snape.<< SSSusan: This, btw, is what I'm trying to say above. That Harry may not be able to forgive just yet, but he might be able to set aside nonetheless. >>boyd: And, assuming Snape is not a double agent for LV, Snape has been quite worthwhile from an OoP perspective--and has at least tried to save Harry on a few occasions. And Harry, despite being a rule- breaking, attention-hogging son-of-a-Potter (from Snape's perspective), has defeated LV and his henchmen on multiple occasions now. My guess is that JKR will set them up with a cataclismic event: the death of DD in book 6 (yes, one prediction I've made that will not change until proven wrong by canon). Harry will then need Snape as a guardian/teacher and to tell him the remaining secrets DD never revealed. Such as how he's supposed to go about killing LV, and what the gleam meant. Snape, meanwhile, will need Harry because he is the one weapon against LV. Snape will have to persuade him that he is not ESE!Snape, that Harry is not HopelessWithoutDD!Harry, and that they both have a common goal: defeating LV. Probably we'll get a little more Snape backstory here--juicy!--and maybe even see a pair of apologies. --boyd I just hope they don't hug!<< SSSusan: I really like the things boyd has said here--esp. that DD's death could be the catalyst for the "setting aside" between Harry & Snape. I also concur that they should never hug! Eewwwww!! ;-) Siriusly Snapey Susan From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Mon Jul 26 18:56:47 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 13:56:47 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: half blood prince Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107757 Kneasy > I personally tend to think that the foreshadowing discovery was the > Parseltongue. In HBP Harry is going to discover many other powers he > got from Voldy. Parseltongue and other Voldy powers have been a background rumble for 3 books now and I have difficulty tying these in with somebody else, i.e. this Half Blood Prince. If HPB refers not to Harry, TR or Voldy, why would those powers be an important link to a third character? Unless that character was Salazar himself - which would bring us back to the Chamber again. Gina now: But there you may have it! Harry, TR, Voldy, who is left? Hmm.....Gryffindor! "In essence divided" maybe that is the link between TR/LV - SS and HP -GG. Maybe that is the reason Harry was picked before birth. What if he has some of Gryffindor's powers like he has LV's? I stick to Sirius' comment about all pureblood families being related. What if the Potter's are related to GG and TR's pureblood mother that we have no clue who she is? Did Lily and James know that LV was TR? On the other hand maybe we should focus on Lily and Petunia's family??? What if one of the muggles in their ancestry was TR Sr? He was a muggle that hated wizards and that sounds like Petunia or Vernon either one. Gina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From squeakinby at tds.net Mon Jul 26 18:56:59 2004 From: squeakinby at tds.net (squeakinby) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:56:59 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: half blood prince In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <410553FB.6080607@tds.net> No: HPFGUIDX 107758 arrowsmithbt wrote: > The Chamber - still there, it seems to have been key in Tom's > development and Salazar built it for a purpose. You can bet that his heir > was going to inherit a lot more than just over-grown Medusoid fish-bait. > What else is down there? Remind me, I've only read the book uptyzillion times and seen the movie endlessly, what are the secretS in the Chamber? The secret was that there was a monster down there? Hmm. There's a monster in the basement of most horror movies. But even if yes, there's only one monster and secrets is plural. Not much of a secret anyway. More like a Boo! It was called the Chamber of Secrets prior to Tom Riddle so it doesn't seem logical that he's one of the secrets. Who called it that originally? Salazar Slytherin? Not much of a secret if he's going to tell everyone. It's not called the Secret Chamber so the fact that no one knows where the thing is isn't the answer. I guess I'm having a Boomer moment, I just don't remember what secrets were revealed when Master Harry entered the Chamber the first time. So I'm with you. We didn't see what's down there that the Basilisk was guarding. Jem From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Mon Jul 26 19:04:47 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:04:47 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: half blood prince Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107759 Jem Remind me, I've only read the book uptyzillion times and seen the movie endlessly, what are the secretS in the Chamber? I just don't remember what secrets were revealed when Master Harry entered the Chamber the first time. Gina: I think whatever was revealed to him was the cause of DD asking him the same question he asked TR "Is there something you wish to tell me?" BOTH of them said no! Some assume this is the fact they can speak parseltongue but I do not think that is it. The whole school knew that! And DD said "tell" me not "ask" me. Gina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Mon Jul 26 19:06:28 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 19:06:28 -0000 Subject: Will Harry muse or be too busy fighting? (was: When Harry met Sally) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107760 SSSusan wrote: >>> Back to one of your points, now IS the time for DD & others to come clean...and STAY clean. If people know more about the what and the why and the how--or about any history which can help Harry understand--they NEED to lay it out there now. Harry's probably already angry & resentful that this burden has fallen on him. We know he's angry w/ DD. If DD & The Order want Harry to choose the difficult path, they're going to have to SHOW him they're willing to let him know whatever he needs to know now. No more secrets, no more "saving you from pain," no more "someday, when you're ready." The time is NOW, and if they're not forthcoming, I suspect Harry will pull away further. boyd: > We could have made the same arguments after each of the first 5 > books, though. Certainly, after GoF it seemed so--that the WW would > finally have to react to LV's return, and that DD would finally > have to let Harry in on the whole thing. But neither happened. SSSusan: Ugh. I suppose you're right on that. :-| boyd: > I agree that he'll still be a bit distanced emotionally from his > friends. SSSusan: I think you're right. The end of OotP was indicative of this, with Harry not telling Ron or Hermione about the prophecy and pulling away from almost everyone. We know that Luna managed to get Harry to talk a bit, though it wasn't intentional on her part. I'll be curious what happens at the beginning of Book 6 to make Harry's Privet Drive stay so short, and how Harry will act around his friends, assuming he gets to be with them after the Privet Drive stay ends. *My* personal hope is that wherever he finds himself, Lupin is there, and that Lupin will manage to help Harry sort some things out and begin to move forward. Siriusly Snapey Susan From ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 26 19:10:39 2004 From: ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com (ohneill_2001) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 19:10:39 -0000 Subject: JKR Speaks: Arthur Weasly will NOT be next Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107761 Mandy wrote: > > I don't know how the WW appoints their new ministers. I don't believe > they are elected (not by the WW public at least), or if the potential > candidates have to come from inside the ministry itself. If not, > then Lucius, or any influential member of the WW would be high on the > list of potential candidates. > Now Cory: I think we know that new ministers do not have to come from within the Ministry, don't we? Before Fudge came to power, we know that a lot of people wanted Dumbledore for Minister, but that Dumbledore wasn't interested and "never applied for the job." (OoP, p. 93, U.S. version). I'm not sure if we have canon for how long Fudge has been in power, but we know that Dumbledore has been at Hogwarts for at least the past 50 years, and for some reason, I want to say Fudge has been around for a shorter time than that. (I have a vague memory that there is canon somewhere that refers to a different minister during the first war, but I have no idea where in the five books that is -- does anyone?) Thus (assuming I'm right about the parts of the above that I am missing), we know that, at the time people were supporting DD for Minister, he was a Hogwarts professor. We also know that to become Minister, one must "apply for the job." However, it is not clear how ministers are chosen; to me "applying" for a job is different than "running" for an office, which suggests that Ministers are not elected, but are chosen by someone, but by whom? Sorry not to be more precise, but hopefully someone else can fill in some of the blanks. --Cory From lbiles at flash.net Mon Jul 26 19:15:00 2004 From: lbiles at flash.net (leb2323) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 19:15:00 -0000 Subject: JKR Speaks: Arthur Weasly will NOT be next Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107762 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mandy" wrote: > JKR has updated her web site again and says Arthur will not be the > next Minister of Magic. > So the question now is who will be? I think it just might be Ludo Bagman. Think of the potential plot twists! There will still be the question of DE influence on the ministry, there will be acrimony between the ministry and the goblins, and there will still be a relatively incompetent and easily manipulated person in charge! The possibilities are endless. leb From earendil_fr at yahoo.com Mon Jul 26 19:38:39 2004 From: earendil_fr at yahoo.com (earendil_fr) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 19:38:39 -0000 Subject: JKR Speaks: Arthur Weasly will NOT be next Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107763 > Cory wrote: > However, it is not clear how ministers are chosen; to > me "applying" for a job is different than "running" for an office, > which suggests that Ministers are not elected, but are chosen by > someone, but by whom? Earendil: I suppose it could be the Wizengamot. They could elect the new minister among the candidates. Earendil. From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Mon Jul 26 20:23:58 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:23:58 -0000 Subject: half blood prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107764 > Kneasy: > Parseltongue and other Voldy powers have been a background rumble > for 3 books now ( particularly the last book; all that mind link stuff) Neri: Allow me to correct. Power(s) tranfered from Voldy are mentioned EXACTLY twice in all the five books: once in CoS, and once in DD's words in the end of OotP. Regarding the mind link, in canon it is NEVER connected with the transferred powers. Not that I believe for one second that there is no connection between these two things, but in canon they are never connected. Parseltongue is mentioned EXACTLY once outside of CoS: in GoF when Draco tells about it to Rita Skeeter in order to blacken Harry's name. There wasn't any background rumble about the transferred powers. There was a resounding silence. It is high time these mysterious powers will make their appearence. > Kneasy: > I have difficulty tying these in with somebody else, i.e. this Half Blood > Prince. Neri: But JKR just told us that there is no connection between them: "The link I mentioned between books two and six does not, in fact, relate to the 'Half-Blood Prince' (because there is no trace left of the HBP storyline in 'Chamber'.) Rather, it relates to a discovery Harry made in 'Chamber' that foreshadows something that he finds out in 'Prince'." I warned you about my nitpicking. Neri From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Mon Jul 26 21:10:38 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 17:10:38 -0400 Subject: Half-Blood Prince Message-ID: <001001c47355$0189a9b0$01c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 107765 Has anyone but me noticed that in this go-round of answers, JKR uses Half-Blood Prince - hyphenated? Everywhere I've seen the title - at the Lexicon, in news reports announcing the title, it has always been Half Blood Prince - no hyphen. Has anyone but me noticed that it is so much harder to wait for the dratted thing, now that we know the title? DuffyPoo [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From BrwNeil at aol.com Mon Jul 26 21:11:56 2004 From: BrwNeil at aol.com (BrwNeil at aol.com) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 17:11:56 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR Speaks: Arthur Weasly will NOT be next Minister o... Message-ID: <1e0.26453cfe.2e36cd9c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107766 In a message dated 7/26/2004 9:40:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Elvishooked at hotmail.com writes: >>JKR has updated her web site again and says Arthur will not be the next Minister of Magic. >> ...snip... As usual Ms Rowling gives an answer that leaves doubt in our mind. Actually not the answer so much as the question. Her answer, alas no. The question, will Authur Weasley be the NEXT Minister of Magic? Why wasn't the question, will Authur Weasley be MoM. Is there a reason for slipping the word next in? Possibly to lead us astray. Neil The Nefarious Court Jester of the Royal Family of Cliffies [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From musicofsilence at hotmail.com Mon Jul 26 21:20:19 2004 From: musicofsilence at hotmail.com (lifeavantgarde) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 21:20:19 -0000 Subject: Lily's Heritage - New JKR FAQs Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107767 Stefanie writes: "As far as somebody like Lucius Malfoy is concerned, for instance, a Muggle-Born is as 'bad' as a Muggle. Therefore Harry would be considered only 'half' wizard, because of HIS MOTHER'S GRANDPARENTS" - JKR FAQ page (emphasis mine) Forgive me if I'm wrong, but haven't we been lead to assume that Lily and Petunia's PARENTS were the Muggles contributing to Lily's 'Muggle-Born-ness'? If Lily's Grandparents were the Muggles, could it be that her parents, true to much speculation, *were* wizards, Petunia a squib, and Lily still considered "Muggle-born"? As JKR expands in this answer in comparing DEs to the Nazis("chilled to see that the Nazis used precisely the same warped logic as the Death Eaters"), "a single Jewish grandparent 'polluted' the blood" and likewise, according to DEs, a single Muggle grandparent would pollute Lily's blood and render her Muggleborn, still. Is this a typo (a la the wand order FAQ) which was meant to speak about *Harry's* grandparents on his mother's side, or is this a juicy truth direct from the quill of JKR?? Stefanie (who was graciously alerted in a wonderfully urgent voicemail from a fellow Potterhead ::tips hat::) From Lynx412 at AOL.com Mon Jul 26 21:23:55 2004 From: Lynx412 at AOL.com (Lynx412 at AOL.com) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 17:23:55 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR Speaks: Arthur Weasly will NOT be next Minister o... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107768 In a message dated 7/26/2004 5:17:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, BrwNeil at aol.com writes: > In a message dated 7/26/2004 9:40:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > Elvishooked at hotmail.com writes: > > >>JKR has updated her web site again and says Arthur will not be the > next Minister of Magic. >> > ...snip... > As usual Ms Rowling gives an answer that leaves doubt in our mind. Actually > > not the answer so much as the question. > > Her answer, alas no. The question, will Authur Weasley be the NEXT Minister > > of Magic? > Why wasn't the question, will Authur Weasley be MoM. Is there a reason for > slipping the word next in? Possibly to lead us astray. > Then again, the 'alas' could have a far different meaning, for all those predicting a Weasly death. If he's killed, the he certainly can't be MoM. The Other Cheryl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MadameSSnape at aol.com Mon Jul 26 21:25:09 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 17:25:09 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] McNair connection Message-ID: <1e6.25f4acb8.2e36d0b5@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107769 In a message dated 7/26/2004 10:54:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, lisa at faistudio.com writes: listening to the Audiobook "Hannibal" and something interesting came up. The author mentions something about the fact that the Abe Lincoln assassination conspirators were executed by hanging at Mt. McNair. ================= Sherrie here: Actually, the four who were hanged swung in the yard of the Old Capital Prison in Washington, DC, & at least one (Mary Surratt) was buried, at least temporarily, under the floor of the prison. A photograph of the hanging can be found at http://www.geocities.com/trctl11/surratt5.jpg The land where the prison once stood is now occupied by the Supreme Court building. I can't find any reference to the land ever being referred to as "Mt. McNair". Washington is a low-lying city - much of it is built on swampland, which was cheap - there aren't many "mounts" in the area. Methinks someone needs to check his research... Sherrie "Unless history lives in our present, it has no future." PRESERVE OUR CIVIL WAR HERITAGE! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From juli17 at aol.com Mon Jul 26 21:25:12 2004 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 17:25:12 EDT Subject: How should Harry deal with Snape? (was: Why Snape doesn't have to be human) Message-ID: <1e1.264768f1.2e36d0b8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107770 Dzeytoun writes: > In order to reach an accomodation with Snape, Harry must not only > deal with all the previous water under the bridge, he must forgive > Snape for what he sees as Snape's complicity in Sirius' death. I > don't subscribe to the theory that this is simply an outlet for his > own guilt. Certainly there is a large amount of that going on, but > that is not the only factor. Harry honestly believes that Snape had > a hand in Sirius' death because of Snape's behavior during Occlumency > lessons and his goading of Sirius at Grimmauld Place. Whether he is > correct or not is beside the point at the moment, and very difficult > to determine because a case CAN be made against Snape. Not enough of > a case, perhaps, to win conviction in a court of law, but certainly > enough to have seminary students arguing a pretty interesting case of > conscience. > Julie says: If a case could be made against Snape, and even better one could be made against Dumbledore, though I don't think a case can be made against anyone. It wasn't anyone's fault that Sirius died, despite the complicity of several people, including Harry. And I don't think that Harry needs to forgive Snape for Sirius's death. (Or Dumbledore, for not revealing pertinent information, or Sirius for taunting Bellatrix). Maybe he needs to forgive *everyone*, including himself for falling for the false dream/not listening to Hermoine. But, most of all, he needs to get past his emotional pain, and see the Sirius' death for exactly what is was--an unfortunate event no one could have predicted--and realize the only one truly to blame was the one who actually killed him, Bellatrix. I also think the disastrous outcome of the Occulmens lesson was in large part Harry's own fault. Whatever Snape's faults (and they are many), there was still NO excuse for Harry to delve into Snape's memories. Emotional motivations, certainly, but no excuse to act on them. And Harry needs to realize that, maybe even atone for it. Not for Snape's sake, or to let Snape off the hook for his behaviour, but for Harry's own sake. Harry accepting his part of the blame for their sorry relationship does NOT absolve Snape (nor change the the fact that Snape started it and shoulders more of the blame). But it does allow Harry to free himself from an increasingly destructive interaction and move on. In a word, it allows Harry to mature (as Snape never has, and perhaps never will). And that is why we're all reading the books, isn't it? To watch Harry grow up, achieve his goals, justify the sacrifice his parents made for him, and in the process become the best man (wizard) he can be. He can't do that without resolving the acrimony with Snape. Dzeytoun writes: All together, I think it is going to take a major event to make for an opening between these two.? First of all, it will take large revelations concerning the history between Snape and the Marauders, as well as revelations about why Dumbledore trusts Snape.? Secondly, it will take a personal development on Harry's part which will probably not entail him coming to respect Snape, but which will likely render Snape a minor factor in his overall view of the world. Julie says: I agree that a major event will probably provide the opening for Harry and Snape to resolve their mutual antagonism. I do hope that Harry comes to respect Snape for the part he's played in defeating Voldemort (assuming this end) at great personal risk. Harry can respect that part of Snape, and Snape's sacrifice--whatever that will eventually entail-- while still not liking him as a person. I believe that is how Lupin and perhaps both McGonagall and Dumbledore are able to coexist with Snape fairly easily. Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Jul 26 21:35:01 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 21:35:01 -0000 Subject: Books 6 & 7 - tragedy or triumph? In-Reply-To: <20040720072958.32859.qmail@web25107.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107771 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Hans Andr?a wrote: > Hans: > I don't know why Jesus' crucifixion is regarded as such torture. Geoff: Because Christians believe that Jesus was carrying the punishment for the sins of the entire world and, in addition to the physical side which has been vividly described by another poster, he was humanly cut off spiritually from God the Father during this time. From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Mon Jul 26 21:46:54 2004 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 21:46:54 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mothers and Fathers (was: Re: James gave his life, why no protection from him?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107772 SSSusan sssaid: >You know, Iggy, this makes me think of another of my pet peeves in >this general subject area. HOW many people have suggested that >*Molly* will betray The Order because of her love/concern for one of >her children? And then contrast that to how many people have >suggested that *Arthur* will betray The Order in the same >fashion.... Interesting, isn't it? > >If someone wants to argue that there is something in Molly's >*specific* temperament which makes this likely AND that that same >thing is *NOT* in Arthur's specific temperament, then I'll listen. Okay, I'll argue that, because it's what I said before after Molly showed us her ugly side in OotP. Arthur's theme in my opinion is "I could not love thee, dear, so muchl/loved I not honor more." (quoting from memory). That's why he jumped all over Percy when he brought home his promotion -- he realized the long view, that Percy would be asked to betray his family for the money and prestige the Ministry was offering. He also realizes that in a war, things are different than in time of peace; any person who wants to fight and can fight should at least be given some part in it, because you need everyone you can get. Lastly, he realizes that someone *will* die during a war, and that even if you're willing to die yourself to protect others, you may not be granted that wish. Molly, in my opinion, takes the limited or short view. She hasn't, I think, realized the whole ramifications of Percy's departure -- she's still focussing on his leaving his family -- not on his transferring his loyalty to the corrupt Ministry and all that implies. She's still trying desperately to run her life and her children's lives as if it were peacetime. And she hasn't been able to put aside her determination to protect people who neither need nor want to be protected (Fred and George), nor to gauge how much protection even underage people should have when they're in a wartime situation (Ron, Ginny, and of course Harry). There are things Arthur wouldn't do, even to protect his children, because he can see past that desire to the war as a whole. In my opinion, Molly is not at this point able to do that. This may be because of her two dead brothers in the last war. However, by the description of their deaths, she should be proud of them and point to them as role models, instead of trying to wrap up her children in swaddling clothes. If Voldemort or his agents are looking for a weak link, they may well choose Molly and threaten her through one of her children -- I think Percy is the most likely since they've got him where they want him and Molly knows this. I don't *know* whether or not she would fold under such pressure, but I think it's much more likely than Arthur doing so. For one thing, Molly might well be capable of convincing herself that Voldemort would keep his word. Not Arthur, not for one moment. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Mon Jul 26 21:53:40 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 21:53:40 -0000 Subject: Half-Blood Prince In-Reply-To: <001001c47355$0189a9b0$01c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107773 Cathy> Has anyone but me noticed that in this go-round of answers, >JKR uses Half-Blood Prince - hyphenated? Everywhere I've seen the >title - at the Lexicon, in news reports announcing the title, it has >always been Half Blood Prince - no hyphen. Aggie: I noticed this too! I wonder if she meant to put it in before but just missed it. There have been SO many theories banded about because of that hyphen (or lack of!)!!! I love the way the *smallest* thing gets the attention of everyone and then gets blown up out of all proportion!! It's such fun!! I'm disappointed that Arthur won't be MoM. I'm hoping that the word *next* is all important (here we go again!!) It kinda reminds me of the 'if any' in Mark Evan's question. Does anyone think that the HBP (with hyphen) is going to be the next MoM? The two could be connected. Can anyone else vote on the poll on JKR's FAQs? If not, does this mean we'll get an answer to the 'my last' Howler question? Wonder what the next question will be.... From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jul 26 21:58:18 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 21:58:18 -0000 Subject: Snape's part in death of Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107774 > Neri: snip > Slightly irresponsible, IMO, especially if we remember the level of > security that the Order had kept around Harry in the beginning of the > year. Two students went with the furious Umbridge into the dangerous > Forbidden Forest, and Snape just sits and waits two hours for them to > return? Potioncat: Where does the 2 hours come from? Do we know how much time passed between Snape discovering Harry was gone and his notifying the Order? Neri: > Allow me to guess that any other member of the Order, in Snape's > place, whould have grabbed a broom immediately after checking on > Sirius in HQ, put a dissillusment spell on himself and went after > Umbridge, Harry and Hermione. If Ron and the rest could track Harry > in the middle of the forest on foot, Snape on a broom could have > found them much faster. Potioncat: I am assuming, whatever the time, that the kids had left the forest by the time Snape is looking there. Do we know "when" he found out that anyone had left the castle? Neri: > DD maybe trusts Snape, but he should not trust him to act responsibly > whenever Harry is involved. Potioncat: This could be a fun, meaty thread to debate, but I do have one major question. With all the errors we've made with Mark Evans and the HBP: Is it your thought that JKR is showing us that Snape delayed looking for Harry? > Potioncat who admits she wasn't able to check canon before jumping in. From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Mon Jul 26 22:09:05 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 22:09:05 -0000 Subject: Will Harry muse or be too busy fighting? (was: When Harry met Sally) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107775 >> boyd wrote: > >> I agree that he'll still be a bit distanced emotionally from his >> friends. > then SSSusan wrote: > I think you're right. The end of OotP was indicative of this, with > Harry not telling Ron or Hermione about the prophecy and pulling away > from almost everyone. We know that Luna managed to get Harry to talk > a bit, though it wasn't intentional on her part. I'll be curious > what happens at the beginning of Book 6 to make Harry's Privet Drive > stay so short, and how Harry will act around his friends, assuming he > gets to be with them after the Privet Drive stay ends. > > *My* personal hope is that wherever he finds himself, Lupin is there, > and that Lupin will manage to help Harry sort some things out and > begin to move forward. > Siriusly Snapey Susan boyd: I hope Lupin'll be there and available to help Harry--but I doubt it. JKR has written Harry a tough destiny, and so far that destiny has included feeling like he has to deal with everything himself: his feelings, his questions, his suspicions, and his enemies. And it's hard to tell now whether the LV/DE consortium will be plotting an insurgence in the first few chapters, or carrying out terror attacks. If they attack, it may well be that Privet Drive is one target--as far as we know, Lily's protection does not extend to the Dursleys, nor does it protect Harry from the DEs. Poor Harry would blame himself for putting those close to him at risk, and instead of asking all the whys and hows, he'll try to keep his distance to keep them safe. Sad, but sounds like Harry not moving forward under this scenario. If LV and the DEs are instead plotting, then, of course, Fudge can still say either that LV was vanquished or that he was never really back. There really is no physical proof, and eyewitness accounts seem to count little in the WW. Further, Fudge may claim the few remaining DEs were caught in the MoM. "So no fear, folks, everything is fine (again)." That'd drive Harry nutters, too. And if Fudge wants to sweep LV and the DEs under the rug, how far might he go? Would he imprison OoP members (they're of questionable credibility anyway)? Force DD out of Hogwarts again? Would the OoP become a renegade force (again) despite the MoM scene? Sad, and also does not sound like Harry moving forward. Sometimes important things are very hard, even unpopular. My guess is that Harry will continue to face that reality throughout Book 6, one way or another. --boyd doesn't mean Harry won't have a few good experiences in Book 6, though! From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Jul 26 22:09:46 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 22:09:46 -0000 Subject: half blood prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107776 > Neri: > But JKR just told us that there is no connection between them: > "The link I mentioned between books two and six does not, in fact, > relate to the 'Half-Blood Prince' (because there is no trace left of > the HBP storyline in 'Chamber'.) Rather, it relates to a discovery > Harry made in 'Chamber' that foreshadows something that he finds out > in 'Prince'." > > I warned you about my nitpicking. > Potioncat: I've got a fine toothed comb too... foreshadowing can also mean he discovers something in a similar way, or discovers something similar in CoS to what he will experience in HBP. He may discover a new ability that also comes from LV. Who knows? Potioncat From vmonte at yahoo.com Mon Jul 26 22:20:59 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 22:20:59 -0000 Subject: Info about HBP on JKR site -- discovery of mudblood name... In-Reply-To: <20040726173800.20458.qmail@webmail9.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107777 Amey wrote: ...both Harry and LV are not HBP. Maybe the HBP is a snake, or snake animagus. Point no. 4 is again not that good, just mentioned in book for showing that Harry is true Gryffindor. It tells nothing about Godric Gryffindor, but in book, we learn that Slytherin and Gryffindor had a fight on the pure blood issue, and so Slytherin left. (I am too tired right now to make sense of what this point means). I think I will be reading CoS again now to get all discoveries Harry makes. Any additions anybody???? vmonte responds: page 112, CoS U.S. paperback: "A loud bang echoed around the stadium and a jet of green light shot out of the wrong end of Ron's wand, hitting him in the stomach and sending him reeling backward onto the grass." page 115 "Malfoy called Hermione something--it must've been really bad, because everyone went wild." "It was bad," said Ron hoarsely, emerging over the tabletop looking pale and sweaty. "Malfoy called her 'Mudblood,' Hagrid--" "He didn'!" he growled at Hermione. "He did," she said. "But I don't know what it means. I could tell of it was really rude, of course--" "It's about the most insulting thing he could think of," gasped Ron, coming back up. "Mudblood's a really foul name for someone who is Muggle-born--you know, non-magic parents. There are some wizards-- like Malfoy's family--who think they're better than everyone else because they're what people call pure-blood." He gave a small burp, and a single slug fell into his outstretched hand. He threw it into the basin and continued. "I mean, the rest of us know it doesn't make any difference at all. Look at Neville Longbottom--he's pure-blood and he can hardly stand a cauldron the right way up." "It's a disgusting thing to call someone," said Ron, wiping his sweaty brow with a shaking hand. "Dirty blood, see. Common blood. It's ridiculus. Most wizards these days are half-blood anyway. If we hadn't married Muggles we'd've died out." This quote directly relates to the half-blood, pure-blood, issue in the books. Both Harry and Hermione had no idea about what a Mudblood was until Ron told them. Harry also found out in book 2 that Tom Riddle was a half-blood, and he told a DE in book 5 that Voldemort was a half-blood. If the half-blood prince reference is not about Harry or Voldemort could it be a derogitory name that will be used against Ron? What if Ron's parents are murdered in book 2 and someone finds out something about Ron's heritage. Could Ron (and siblings) turn out to be the inheritors of unknown money? Will Draco call Ron the half-blood prince in the same manner as the "Weasley is our king?" mantra. vivian vivian From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Mon Jul 26 22:28:33 2004 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 22:28:33 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Oh, the People Snape Knows... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107778 "Erin" said: *snip most of insightful and thought-provoking post* >It's not so much what he says, as who he says it to. Other than his >students, Snape doesn't even bother speaking to non-suspicious >characters. Nearly every single conversation he has is with someone >who either *is* a Death Eater or a traitor to Dumbledore, or who is >*suspected* of being a Death Eater or a traitor to Dumbledore. Yes. Looking over this pattern, I think I see one of the reasons Dumbledore needs Snape: Snape, knowing quite a lot about untrustworthiness, is possibly more able to spot it than Dumbledore, especially in its more subtle aspects. Janet Anderson _________________________________________________________________ Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Mon Jul 26 22:37:42 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 22:37:42 -0000 Subject: Mothers and Fathers (was: Re: James gave his life, why no protection from him?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107779 > SSSusan sssaid: > > >If someone wants to argue that there is something in Molly's > >*specific* temperament which makes this likely AND that that same > >thing is *NOT* in Arthur's specific temperament, then I'll listen. > Janet> >Okay, I'll argue that, because it's what I said before after Molly >showed us her ugly side in OotP. Aggie: When I first read this comment I thought you were referring to Molly's interactions with Sirius, but after reading your post I see you were not. Being an over-protective mother can be counter- productive and annoying to the child concerned but ugly? Janet: > Molly, in my opinion, takes the limited or short view. >She's still trying desperately to run her life and her children's >lives as if it were peacetime. And she hasn't been able to put >aside her determination to protect people who neither need nor want >to be protected (Fred and George),nor to gauge how much protection >even underage people should have when they're in a wartime situation >(Ron, Ginny, and of course Harry).> Aggie: Never having been in the fore front of a war with my children, it is impossible to say how I would react. I can see the *logic* behind not trying to protect the children so much but then *love* has never gone hand in hand with logic. Janet: > There are things Arthur wouldn't do, even to protect his children, >because he can see past that desire to the war as a whole. In my >opinion, Molly is not at this point able to do that. This may be >because of her two dead brothers in the last war. However, by the >description of their deaths, she should be proud of them and point >to them as role models, instead of trying to wrap up her children in >swaddling clothes. Aggie: I'm sorry but how do you know what Arthur would or wouldn't do in the face of imminent death of one of his children? I'm sure Molly IS proud of her brothers, that doesn't mean she wants any other member of her family to go the same way. Janet> > If Voldemort or his agents are looking for a weak link, they may >well choose Molly and threaten her through one of her children -- I >think Percy is the most likely since they've got him where they want >him and Molly knows this. I don't *know* whether or not she would >fold under such pressure, but I think it's much more likely than >Arthur doing so. Aggie: Where in canon do are you deriving your theories from? Please enlighten me? (Seriously!) I don't remember reading anything that would suggest this. I think this is boiling down to the original point of mother's love Vs father's love as opposed to 'Molly' Vs 'Arthur'. I *can* see LV using Molly's motherly love against her though. (Just as much as I can see him using it against Arthur.) Janet: >For one thing, Molly might well be capable of convincing herself >that Voldemort would keep his word. Not Arthur, not for one moment. Aggie: What???? Why would Molly believe *anything* that LV promises her? I don't go along with this for one second!!! She's a mother - NOT stupid!! Apologies if this sounds like a rant! __________________________________________________________ From ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 26 22:46:34 2004 From: ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com (ohneill_2001) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 22:46:34 -0000 Subject: JKR Speaks: Arthur Weasly will NOT be next Minister o... In-Reply-To: <1e0.26453cfe.2e36cd9c@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107780 Neil wrote: > As usual Ms Rowling gives an answer that leaves doubt in our mind. Actually > not the answer so much as the question. > > Her answer, alas no. The question, will Authur Weasley be the NEXT Minister > of Magic? > Why wasn't the question, will Authur Weasley be MoM. Is there a reason for > slipping the word next in? Possibly to lead us astray. > Now Cory: Of course, with only two books remaining, the "next" Minister of Magic is the only one that is likely to be significant from a plot development standpoint. If Fudge loses power at this point, whoever replaces him will likely be MoM until the end of the series, (possibly being toppled at the very end). Thus, in terms of helping us determine where the plot is headed, JKR has fully answered the question. Her answer is only evasive to the extent that it does not foreclose the possibility that Arthur will be Minister after the series ends, appointed either at the end of book 7 or in an epilogue. --Cory From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Jul 26 22:49:56 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 22:49:56 -0000 Subject: Snape's part in death of Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107781 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: Neri: >So Snape figured that Umbridge is the one who needs rescuing,although she had the wand, while Harry and Hermione were wandless. Either Snape has a lot of respect to Harry's abilities, or very little respect to Umbridge abilities, or both.< Pippin: Ron, Ginny, Neville and Luna had overcome Warrington, Malfoy, Crabbe, Bulstrode and two other unnamed Slytherins, and left for the forest already with Harry and Hermione's wands. Snape knew that skilled help was on its way. (He'd have to be an idiot not to know about the DA.) Plenty of listies have remarked that Umbridge is no great shakes with a wand. And yes, I'd say Snape would be an idiot not to have a high respect for the abilities of someone who is a Tri-wizard victor, the best DADA student in the school (possibly the best Hogwarts has ever seen), has beaten Voldemort and his minions time after time, fought off one hundred Dementors, and lest we forget, knocked Snape himself unconscious. Question: if Snape had caught up with Harry, how would you suggest he compel Harry to return?j Neri: >Is it possible that DD didn't tell him that Harry is "the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord"?< Yes, unless Dumbledore is lying. "I alone could prevent this" (ie, the flaw in his plan, that he would care too much about Harry to reveal his destiny to him.) Pippin previously: > So, allowing Harry an hour to walk into the forest and deal with Umbridge, and another hour to make his way back, it would be at least two hours before Snape began wondering why Harry hadn't > returned. > Neri: >Slightly irresponsible, IMO, especially if we remember the level of security that the Order had kept around Harry in the beginning of the year. Two students went with the furious Umbridge into the dangerous Forbidden Forest, and Snape just sits and waits two hours for them to return? < Pippin: Snape is the *only* Order member left at Hogwarts. He *can't* leave. There are nine hundred ninety-nine other children at the school. Snape can't abandon them. What if Harry had been decoyed away so that Voldemort could attack Hogwarts and take the children hostage for the Prophecy? > Potioncat: > Where does the 2 hours come from? Do we know how much time passed between Snape discovering Harry was gone and his notifying the Order?< Pippin: Dumbledore says Snape notified the order when Harry didn't come back from the forest. The students were at dinner when Harry went into the forest, the sun was just above the tops of the trees, and it was setting when Harry took off for the Ministry. I'm guessing no more than an hour for that. Snape knows that Hermione has a plan to deal with Umbridge, so he knows that she has thought of something in the forest that would attack Umbridge and not a wandless underage wizard. Hmm, not werewolves, not acromantulas, not unicorns, not thestrals, not Fluffy, ah got it! Centaurs. If Snape didn't know how far Hermione would have to go to find the centaur patrols, he could ask Firenze. So Snape waits, hoping that one of those little idiots will remember to shoot sparks into the air if they need help, and really hoping that they don't, because he hasn't got anyone who's capable of dealing with a herd of murderous centaurs. Pippin From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Mon Jul 26 23:47:42 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 23:47:42 -0000 Subject: Snape's part in death of Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107782 Potioncat: Where does the 2 hours come from? Do we know how much time passed between Snape discovering Harry was gone and his notifying the Order? Neri: The 2 hours came from Pippin's estimation. Lets check. We know for sure that Snape checked the first time with HQ after leaving Umbridge's office. It seems that his means of communication, whatever it was, was very fast or instantaneous, because he sent a question and got an answer that Sirius was indeed in HQ. We know that when he "grew worried" he contacted HQ again. So the time it took him to become worried was: The time Harry and Co. spent in the forest + The time it took them to fly to London + The time it took them to find the prophecy + The time they fought the DEs ? 2 x The time it took Snape to contact HQ ? The time it took the Order members to get to the DoM once they got the message from Snape. In my estimation it would be considerably more than 2 hrs. Double-check: It is also mentioned that twilight was falling when Harry and Co. took off to London from the forest, and when DD sent Harry to his office after the battle it was already dawn (Harry can see the first light on the horizon from DD's window). So you can also calculate it as: The time Harry and Co. spent in the forest + The length of the night in Scotland in June ? 2 x The time it took Snape to contact HQ ? The time it took the Order members to get to the DoM ? The time since they got there until DD sent Harry to his office. IMO should be at least 4 hrs, more likely 5. Moreover, most of it was dark time. Snape waited at least 3 hrs AFTER DARK before he "grew worried" about six students and a teacher in the Forbidden Forest. Not responsible at all. Potioncat: I am assuming, whatever the time, that the kids had left the forest by the time Snape is looking there. Do we know "when" he found out that anyone had left the castle? Neri: It would be very strange if he hadn't noticed for several hours that all the Inquisitorial Squad was hexed. At the very least someone must have noticed it (it must have been quite a BANG) and alerted him, as he was one of the senior teachers left in the school. How much time is it to question the Slytherins and find out what happened? Potioncat: This could be a fun, meaty thread to debate, but I do have one major question. With all the errors we've made with Mark Evans and the HBP: Is it your thought that JKR is showing us that Snape delayed looking for Harry? Neri: Do you mean that it wasn't her intension and she didn't do the math of the timeline from everybody's point of view? Could be, but IMO this fits well with the pattern of Snape's carelessness and irresponsibility regarding Harry during the Occlumency lessons and especially after he stopped the lessons. Neri From stargaz77 at aol.com Mon Jul 26 12:26:52 2004 From: stargaz77 at aol.com (celestina707) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 12:26:52 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle not HBP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107783 JKR has updated her FAQ on her site by answering the question whether Tom Riddle is the half blood prince, (www.jkrowling.com). She also answers the question of whether Author Weasly will be MOM and another question regarding full bloods, half bloods and mudbloods. She is very specific regarding the link between books 2 and 6, so now I am leaning towards the Hagrid theory as HBP, as to what Harry discovers in book 2. The diary was also a major discovery, but if Tom Riddle is NOT the HBP, then the Aragon/Hagrid story is (I am guessing) the story that will develop in Book 6. From lszydlowski at hotmail.com Mon Jul 26 12:04:24 2004 From: lszydlowski at hotmail.com (szydlowskil) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 12:04:24 -0000 Subject: Half Blood Prince Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107784 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "LadyMyneh" wrote: > Forgive me if someone has posted this before- I've looked over the > posts from the last few days and no one seems to be actively putting > this idea forwards, so I thought I throw it out there. Lynette Replies : See 1004802 for probably the first post suggesting this. As you mentioned, Hagrid himself is a huge mystery (yeah, in every sense of the word). Perhaps his lineage is why Dumbledore opted to keep him around after he was expelled, and also perhaps why Lucius Malfoy was so anxious to get him to Azkaban. From meditrania at hotmail.com Mon Jul 26 13:47:15 2004 From: meditrania at hotmail.com (Medi de Romanus) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 13:47:15 -0000 Subject: JKR Speaks: Arthur Weasly will NOT be next Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107785 Lucius Malfoy has been put into Azkaban prison. I believe that this rules him out on the chance that he may become Minister of Magic. Same with Umbridge, though she wasn't put in Azkaban, but she did set the Dementors on the Boy-Who-Lived. From brenda-chaisson at rogers.com Mon Jul 26 12:46:28 2004 From: brenda-chaisson at rogers.com (Brenda Chaisson) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 08:46:28 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP again! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c4730e$95fba590$6500a8c0@MAIN> No: HPFGUIDX 107786 Anne Writes: - - And nobody will be Half Blood Prince ever again- hm. Then who was Prince before him? Codric Gryffindor, the first Muggle- lover ever? I always thought his sword identified him as a nobleman. Why not Prince, Half Blood Prince? .annie sooo glad Harry is not the prince. I still hope he is also not Luckdragon64 writes: Here's another theory with very little canon to back it up. Sirius notes that all pureblood wizard families are inter-related at some point. Harry learns that he is the last heir of Gryffindor and that Godric was the halfblood prince. Whose mother was a descendant of Merlin and whose father was a descendant of King Arthur (remember these Wizards can live for hundreds of years). Lily on the other hand is a descendant of St.Patrick who drove the snakes out of Ireland. The green eyes are significant of Ireland and her ability with charms comes from a secretive relationship an ancestor had with a leprechaun. "Oh my lucky charms".::: Brenda who thinks you gotta have some fun... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maritajan at yahoo.com Mon Jul 26 14:00:24 2004 From: maritajan at yahoo.com (Marita Jan) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 07:00:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR Speaks: Arthur Weasly will NOT be next Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040726140024.41517.qmail@web12102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107787 --- Inge wrote: > >>JKR has updated her web site again and says Arthur will not be the > next Minister of Magic. >> > Inge: > Try Lucius Malfoy? Didn't Lucius end up in Azkaban at the end of Phoenix? MJ From heynorty at yahoo.com Mon Jul 26 14:58:43 2004 From: heynorty at yahoo.com (heynorty) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:58:43 -0000 Subject: JKR Speaks: Arthur Weasly will NOT be next Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107789 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Inge" wrote: > >>JKR has updated her web site again and says Arthur will not be the > next Minister of Magic. >> > Inge: > Try Lucius Malfoy? Thankfully, Arthur Weasley will not be the next MOM. It was beyond me- -how people could make predictions he would be. In addition, why would you want him as the next Minister either now or in the future. He would make a poor Minister--he would to involved in trying to figure out how a stapler works or something. From stargaz77 at aol.com Mon Jul 26 15:17:12 2004 From: stargaz77 at aol.com (celestina707) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:17:12 -0000 Subject: JKR website update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107790 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lady Of The Pensieve" wrote: > futhermore we learn at the updated page is, that Harry discovered in > Chamber. > > Any ideas about what the discovery was in CoS? > > Quote: > The link I mentioned between books two and six does not, in fact, > relate to the 'Half-Blood Prince' (because there is no trace left of > the HBP storyline in 'Chamber'.) Rather, it relates to a discovery > Harry made in 'Chamber' that foreshadows something that he finds out > in 'Prince'. I'm leaning towards the discovery of the sword of Gryffindor that came out of the sorting hat, in hopes of Harry being the true heir/descendant of GG. This fits with my theory that Harry is a descedant of GG, and is why Harry and James needed to be killed by Voldemort but Lily didn't have to die. Celestina From brenda-chaisson at rogers.com Mon Jul 26 16:51:32 2004 From: brenda-chaisson at rogers.com (Brenda Chaisson) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 12:51:32 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: half blood prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000901c47330$cf8ee750$6500a8c0@MAIN> No: HPFGUIDX 107791 * Kneasy wrote: > This looks good. > Just what a few of us have been banging on about - the Chamber > still has significance and there was something about it that has > nothing to do with the Basilisk or TR and his diary. Luckdragon64 writes: I think the discovery is about only a true Gryffindor being able to pull the sword out of the hat and the eventual discovery that he is the heir of Gryffindor.(Arthur pulls the sword from the stone and discovers he is the son of the king) .See my "latest" theory on who the HBP is. ________ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rhinobabies at hotmail.com Mon Jul 26 18:54:46 2004 From: rhinobabies at hotmail.com (coderaspberry77) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:54:46 -0000 Subject: New information about HBP on JKR's site In-Reply-To: <20040726173800.20458.qmail@webmail9.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107792 Amey: >I think I will be reading CoS again now to get all discoveries >Harry makes. > Any additions anybody???? Well, harry "discovers" a couple of other things, though I'm not sure how much this tells us, either: 1) The Hand of Glory in Borgin and Burkes - so what? 2) The term "mudblood" and the whole wizarding blood debate Don't know if that adds much, but they are discoveries he makes. I suppose you could say he "discovers" a bunch of other things, like skele-gro and the powerful magic of house-elves - who knows, really? From rowansjet at yahoo.com Mon Jul 26 17:32:54 2004 From: rowansjet at yahoo.com (rowansjet) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 17:32:54 -0000 Subject: JKR Speaks: Arthur Weasly will NOT be next Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107793 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mandy" wrote: > JKR has updated her web site again and says Arthur will not be the > next Minister of Magic. [snip] > > So the question now is who will be? Someone we know already? Or a > completely new character? It won't be DD as he has to remain at > Hogwarts for the duration of the story. Who in the Ministry does > that leave? Amelia Bones? Deloris Umbridge? (Heaven forbid!)....I'm > just not coming up with any others right now...any thoughts? I think Amelia Bones would be a good candidate. She seemed fair and kind in the hearing. From gopotter2004 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 26 23:58:48 2004 From: gopotter2004 at yahoo.com (gopotter2004) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 23:58:48 -0000 Subject: Arthur Weasley dies? (Was: Arthur Weasly will NOT be next Minister of Magic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107794 My heart stopped when I first read her post. Will Arthur Weasley become Minister of Magic? Answer: "Alas, No." No further explanation. Which (::shudder::) makes me fear for his life. After all, she's general pretty good with her wording, she didn't have to make it so drastic sounding. Am I just plane-lagged? (The other explanation, I realize, is that someone AWFUL become Minister. That's the only other reason she could be so depressed about it... right?) A fretful Becky From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 27 00:16:20 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 00:16:20 -0000 Subject: Mothers and Fathers (was: Re: James gave his life, why no protection from him?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107795 SSSusan sssaid: >>>If someone wants to argue that there is something in Molly's *specific* temperament which makes this likely AND that that same thing is *NOT* in Arthur's specific temperament, then I'll listen.<<< Janet >>Okay, I'll argue that, because it's what I said before after Molly showed us her ugly side in OotP. Molly, in my opinion, takes the limited or short view. She's still trying desperately to run her life and her children's lives as if it were peacetime. And she hasn't been able to put aside her determination to protect people who neither need nor want to be protected (Fred and George),nor to gauge how much protection even underage people should have when they're in a wartime situation (Ron, Ginny, and of course Harry).<< SSSusan: I'm afraid I really don't see where you're getting this. She's living her life as if it were peacetime? How so? If she were in denial about the war, why would the boggart have taken the shape of all those that she loves, dead? She *is* protective--maybe even overprotective--but I don't see where you get that she's living her life as if there's no war. Janet: >> There are things Arthur wouldn't do, even to protect his children, because he can see past that desire to the war as a whole. In my opinion, Molly is not at this point able to do that. This may be because of her two dead brothers in the last war. However, by the description of their deaths, she should be proud of them and point to them as role models, instead of trying to wrap up her children in swaddling clothes.<< Aggie replied: > I'm sorry but how do you know what Arthur would or wouldn't do in > the face of imminent death of one of his children? I'm sure Molly > IS proud of her brothers, that doesn't mean she wants any other > member of her family to go the same way. SSSusan: I agree w/ Aggie. I just don't see where, in canon, you can see things that Arthur WOULDN'T do?? That was the whole point of my original post--that people seem to be assuming Molly would give in if threatened or blackmailed by Voldy. And she might!! But why had no one pointed out that Arthur might, as well? Or *anyone* whose loved one was in danger? I still believe that no evidence has been presented to show that we can be sure in any way that Arthur wouldn't fall victim to this any more or less than Molly. Janet: >> If Voldemort or his agents are looking for a weak link, they may well choose Molly and threaten her through one of her children -- I think Percy is the most likely since they've got him where they want him and Molly knows this. I don't *know* whether or not she would fold under such pressure, but I think it's much more likely than Arthur doing so.<< Aggie replied: > Where in canon do are you deriving your theories from? Please > enlighten me? (Seriously!) I don't remember reading anything > that would suggest this. I think this is boiling down to the > original point of mother's love Vs father's love as opposed > to 'Molly' Vs 'Arthur'. I *can* see LV using Molly's motherly > love against her though. (Just as much as I can see him using it > against Arthur.) SSSusan: Absolutely. This *was* my original point. ANYONE who loves someone else is a potential liability if that someone is abducted or threatened. I still see no *evidence from canon* that Molly is the most likely to fall into this trip. Janet: >>For one thing, Molly might well be capable of convincing herself that Voldemort would keep his word. Not Arthur, not for one moment.<< Aggie: > What???? Why would Molly believe *anything* that LV promises > her? I don't go along with this for one second!!! She's a > mother - NOT stupid!! SSSusan: If an apology is in order, then I should second it, because this is how I felt when reading this post, too. I still maintain that there are **assumptions** being made about Molly, likely deriving from her being a woman & a MOM, AND about Arthur, likely deriving from his being a man, but ignoring his being a father. Again, I'm HAPPY to consider counter-arguments, but I think we need to see some citations from canon for them to be at all convincing. Siriusly Snapey Susan (a mother, who's sure her husband would be equally susceptible to blackmail revolving around harming one of our children.) P.S. But I agreed with your post in 107770, Janet!! :-) From cincimaelder at yahoo.com Tue Jul 27 00:21:32 2004 From: cincimaelder at yahoo.com (cincimaelder) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 00:21:32 -0000 Subject: JKR Speaks: Arthur Weasly will NOT be next Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107796 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "heynorty" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Inge" wrote: > > > >>JKR has updated her web site again and says Arthur will not be > the > > next Minister of Magic. >> > > > > Inge: > > Try Lucius Malfoy? > > Thankfully, Arthur Weasley will not be the next MOM. It was beyond me- > -how people could make predictions he would be. In addition, why > would you want him as the next Minister either now or in the future. > He would make a poor Minister--he would to involved in trying to > figure out how a stapler works or something. MAE: I agree with this too. I couldn't figure out why anyone thought he would be, because he wouldn't want to be. Ron told Harry at one time that his Dad could have gotten promoted/moved up (can't remember the exact wording), but chose not too because he liked where he was. From sollecks970 at aol.com Tue Jul 27 00:22:47 2004 From: sollecks970 at aol.com (fawkes970) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 00:22:47 -0000 Subject: JKR website update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107797 this is a very interesting point, however i think it's ruled out that he's the HBP since Joanne said so on her website in the FAQ section. > > I'm leaning towards the discovery of the sword of Gryffindor that > came out of the sorting hat, in hopes of Harry being the true > heir/descendant of GG. This fits with my theory that Harry is a > descedant of GG, and is why Harry and James needed to be killed by > Voldemort but Lily didn't have to die. > > > Celestina From cincimaelder at yahoo.com Tue Jul 27 00:30:24 2004 From: cincimaelder at yahoo.com (cincimaelder) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 00:30:24 -0000 Subject: JKR website update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107798 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fawkes970" wrote: > this is a very interesting point, however i think it's ruled out > that he's the HBP since Joanne said so on her website in the FAQ > section. > > > > I'm leaning towards the discovery of the sword of Gryffindor that > > came out of the sorting hat, in hopes of Harry being the true > > heir/descendant of GG. This fits with my theory that Harry is a > > descedant of GG, and is why Harry and James needed to be killed by > > Voldemort but Lily didn't have to die. > > > > > > Celestina MAE: Wow, I really like this theory. It fits so much of the criteria for the HBP. The bit about Lily is really clever. Also, as another poster noted, Harry could pull the sword out of the hat. I'm going with GG too. From jferer at yahoo.com Tue Jul 27 00:33:02 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 00:33:02 -0000 Subject: JKR Speaks: Arthur Weasly will NOT be next Minister o... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107799 Cory: "Of course, with only two books remaining, the "next" Minister of Magic is the only one that is likely to be significant from a plot development standpoint. If Fudge loses power at this point, whoever replaces him will likely be MoM until the end of the series, (possibly being toppled at the very end). Thus, in terms of helping us determine where the plot is headed, JKR has fully answered the question. Her answer is only evasive to the extent that it does not foreclose the possibility that Arthur will be Minister after the series." Actually, this is the quote, copied and pasted from JKR's site: Q: Will Arthur Weasley be the new Minister for Magic? A: Alas, no. New, not next. Not much difference, but for accuracy's sake... I think you have the right idea. It's too late for more than one Minister, and it could be Arthur may be Minister at some future time, although I doubt it. The answer isn't evasive. It's "alas, no." If anything leaves any doubt, it's the question. JKR answers questions as you and I would, not as a lawyer would. Has she ever actually deceived us with an answer to a question, something where an apparent loophole actually turned out? There may be one, but I don't think she does it deliberately. Jim Ferer From jferer at yahoo.com Tue Jul 27 00:40:33 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 00:40:33 -0000 Subject: Arthur Weasley dies? (Was: Arthur Weasly will NOT be next Minister of Magic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107801 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gopotter2004" wrote: > My heart stopped when I first read her post. > Will Arthur Weasley become Minister of Magic? > > Answer: "Alas, No." > > No further explanation. Which (::shudder::) makes me fear for his > life. After all, she's general pretty good with her wording, she > didn't have to make it so drastic sounding. Am I just plane-lagged? Probably. If we take out of JKR's answer that Arthur's going to die, we're adding that into it. He might die; a lot of good people we care about will before this is over. Sure hope not. Anyone who doesn't like Arthur has a heart of stone. > Cory: > (The other explanation, I realize, is that someone AWFUL become > Minister. That's the only other reason she could be so depressed > aboutit... right?) I'd be surprised. Fudge is so discredited, and Dumbledore's riding so high, he ought to be able to prevent the next Minister from being a bad 'un. DD might well let Fudge stay, actually, as a figurehead, unless there's a good candidate out there. No matter who's Minister, everybody knows who's in charge. Jim Ferer From sweetface531 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 27 00:53:37 2004 From: sweetface531 at yahoo.com (Justine) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 00:53:37 -0000 Subject: Lily's Heritage - New JKR FAQs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107802 Stefanie writes: > "As far as somebody like Lucius Malfoy is concerned, for instance, a > Muggle-Born is as 'bad' as a Muggle. Therefore Harry would be > considered only 'half' wizard, because of HIS MOTHER'S > GRANDPARENTS" - JKR FAQ page (emphasis mine) > > Forgive me if I'm wrong, but haven't we been lead to assume that > Lily and Petunia's PARENTS were the Muggles contributing to > Lily's 'Muggle-Born-ness'? Justine: I'm surprised no one else here seems to have caught that by now! It was, I thought, the phrase that stood out most next to the revelation about the actual HBP of HBP not being related to CoS. (I've always had a hunch Madam Bones will be the next Minister, though I won't be shocked if she isn't...) This is, of course, further evidence that Petunia is a squib, but does it have any further impact on the story? Petunia's potential squibness (and her potential acquisition of magical powers later in life) have been discussed long before this... is there something we're missing? Harry's grandparents on both sides are dead--we know that much. There has been speculation that the Potters were killed during the first war; could the Evanses have been as well? And if they were indeed a wizarding family, that would mean Petunia knows much more than she's letting on, and didn't need to overhear "that horrible boy" talking about Dementors at all. Vernon, though, seems to be under the impression that Lily was the odd duck of the family. Could Petunia have hidden her parents' magical power from him? Or did they die before the marriage? Or does any of it even matter? Stefanie: > (who was graciously alerted in a wonderfully urgent voicemail from a > fellow Potterhead ::tips hat::) Justine, who tips her hat right back;-) From jferer at yahoo.com Tue Jul 27 00:59:38 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 00:59:38 -0000 Subject: JKR website update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107803 Lady of the Pensieve:"I'm leaning towards the discovery of the sword of Gryffindor that came out of the sorting hat, in hopes of Harry being the true heir/descendant of GG. This fits with my theory that Harry is a descendent of GG, and is why Harry and James needed to be killed by Voldemort but Lily didn't have to die." I like this idea, and I agree with you. Remember? It seemed like a foreshadowing then, many people thought so the minute they read it. But since Harry's *not* the Half Blood Prince, then if he is the Heir of Gryffindor, how will the two relate? A half-blood Percival to Harry's King Arthur? (If we really wanted to push this, then Harry should have gotten the sword from the giant squid. Not as glamorous as a Lady of the Lake, but you gotta work with what they give you. On the other hand, he might have been under the lake when he pulled the sword out of his hat.) Will the DA find a round table in the Room of Requirement? Jim Ferer From xtremesk8ergurl2 at aol.com Mon Jul 26 01:14:45 2004 From: xtremesk8ergurl2 at aol.com (xtremesk8ergurl2 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 21:14:45 EDT Subject: Neville and potions- an unpopular opinion Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107805 From: Irene > > If we allow that at least some of the Hogwarts pupils represent some > features from the real world education, then Neville has the most > obvious parallel - he is the special needs child. > Now, I maintain another unpopular opinion - that Snape's teaching method > is not criminal and not even outside of the range of valid methods, and > works perfectly well for average and above students. It might even be > one of the more efficient methods for gifted students. But that's not > the point I want to argue today. > But even I agree wholeheartedly that Snape's methods and special needs xtremesk8ergurl2: Believe it or not, I'm both severly dyslexic, ADHD, and CAPD (auditory processing disorder), and have an IQ over 145. I went to a school for gifted kids with Language Based Learning Differences (mostly Dyslexia etc.), and I had a teacher for Literature who was just like Snape. While she was one of the meanest people I've ever met, and even often embarassed me in front of the class, she was the only teacher I had who could ever teach me how to write a paper. Ironically, she had the whole greasy haired look that Snape had too. While I despised the way she treated me and some of my classmates, I often took certain things she said with a grain of salt, and I feel she really wisened all of us up instead of sugarcoating things for us and making excuses for us like other teachers do for special needs students. And another thing special needs students need to learn and that often only a Snape-type teacher can teach, is that you have to work twice as hard in life. The Snape teachers I've had in my life are probably the reason why I'm as self-motivated today as I am. While encouragement can do this for some people, a lot of people just need a kick in the butt. I actually think having a Snape teacher is a good experience for a Special needs child. Also, in reference to your comment about parallels, I think Hermione is parallel to an academically and intellectually gifted child. xtremesk8tergurl12 From nihil8750 at comcast.net Mon Jul 26 19:30:13 2004 From: nihil8750 at comcast.net (nihil8750o) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 19:30:13 -0000 Subject: Theory on James and Lilly Potters occupations Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107806 Firstly, I would like to say thank you for everyone's response to this theory that I have presented. Many of you have given thought provoking ideas and insight on this theory of mine. To answer some questions that have been posted on this theory I will do my best because I must admit there are some holes (But a theory without holes is actually a fact). On the subject of why has no one mentioned it to Harry if one of his parents was the original DADA teacher; I have an answer (granted it might presume too much). In my original post I present the idea that perhaps Harry might be destined to be the future DADA teacher. Now it stands to reason that Dumbledore might want Harry to choose this out his own free will not out of some desire to have a connection with his deceased parents. Therefore he would keep it secret until Harry chooses such a career path on his own ( I believe Harry leading the DA is step in that direction. I mean Harry found himself thinking of lessons for each weeks DA meeting.). This of course is just a presumption on my part; it honestly could be something as simple as JKR doesn't want us to know right now so she just withholds it. Now on to another matter. As I openly presumed most if not all of you believe if this theory is to be true it would be James in DADA position and not Lilly. I, if I were to be honest, thought that originally as well. I mean, come on, it adds soooo much to the Snape and James dynamic. However, the more I thought about it the more I began to think it would be too obvious (We all know JKR likes to make us think we should zig when we should zag). Honestly, does the Snape/ James relationship need anymore to be validated? Furthermore, would it also make sense for Snape to not only hold ill will towards Harry for his father but his mother as well. How embarrassing would it be for a pure blood to be denied a job formerly held by a mud blood? Parallels can be drawn from this theorized history to the current Hogwarts dynamic between Hermione and Malfroy. Draco does not hate Hermione because she is a mud blood but because she is a mud blood who is superior in talent to him, a pure blood. But, who knows Harry might just be following in his fathers footsteps. I, of course, might just be assuming too much. Although, I do firmly believe Lilly is due to have a significant revelation soon (based solely on the fact that James has dominated the parental revelations to date). As to the question Why were the Potters in Godrics Hollow and not Hogwarts when they were killed. I believe Snow said it best: >"Hogwarts may have been a safe haven but James may not have wanted to >put the school or its head master in jeopardy so he left the teaching >profession to go into hiding. This could be the simple answer as to >why James turned down Dumbledore's offer to be their secret keeper." This also might be why Hagrid mentioned that Hogwarts was the safest place on earth. Meaning he did not agree with the decision for James and Lilly to leave the school. A decision on the part of James and Lilly to leave the school that could have come about because of Dumbledores belief that Tom Riddle was the Heir of Slytheryn. This could have given Voldermort an uncanny knowledge and ability to enter the school through secret means (i.e. the Chamber of Secrets) and cause devastation within the school to reach his objective (one must also remember Voldemort was stronger at this time and would most likely take any risks necessary to achieve his goal of destroying the one who could defeat him.). Again this is just speculation. Potioncat's addition to my theory that possibly both of the Potters were working at the school is quite intriguing: >"So, having one or both of them working at Hogwarts would make >sense. Particularly given how fondly both McGonagall and Hagrid >speak of James and Lily. (Not Potter and Evans.) > >Very easily, two teaching positions could have opened on 31 Oct. >DADA and Potions. So, wouldn't it be interesting if Snape is >frustrated at Harry because Lily was such a good potion maker,..." I must say I like this possibility; but, it is also quite possible that the Potions position came open due to another member of the Order of the Phoenix that filled that spot dying. They were dropping like flies at the time. Potioncat also brought up the excellent point that counters my theory on James being an Auror: >"Well, I'd vote against auror. I could be wrong (thought it's never >happened before) but I don't think there was time for auror training >and becoming an auror for James to have been more than a novice." This is an excellent point considering it takes an additional 3 years of training to become an Auror. This would mean that James had only held the title for a little under a year or possibly still training ( this would depend solely on when the Department begins it's recruitment). But at the time one must remember that the wizarding world was at war training for anything in the time of war is greatly condensed. Possibly even if the department suffers enough casualties training could take place in the field. This of course is argument for the sake of argument. For the is not enough information to validate any of it. I still however, hold to my theory based on the reaction of Kingsley Shacklebolt when first meeting Harry. I might be grasping at straws but I do think there is significance there. Charme has also made several valid extensions to the over all theory: >"As for Lily, I'm thinking the DoM - an Unspeakable. She would have had the >ability to research and find the type of counter curse she used." This position would have it's benefits as far as giving Lilly the ability to research such unknown areas of magic. But, when looked upon in the overall flow of the story I believe JKR has been giving us clues from the very beginning and to place Lilly in a occupation that has only recently been mentioned (OoP) disrupts JKR's pattern of subtle hints. Again arguing just to argue. Finally, here is another piece of cannon that might support the possibility of one of Harry's parents being the former DADA teacher. " What sort of magic do you teach, Professor Quirrell?" "D-Defence Against the D-D-Dark Arts," muttered Professor Quirrell,..." N-not that you n-need it, eh, P-P-Potter?"(SS, p.70) Now this of course could be an innocent comment referring to Harry's escape from Lord Voldemort. But could it not just as easily be a duel reference to not only Harry's escape but his parents and their former position. Do people not assumed that whatever the parents are good at the children will be good at as well? Also the significance that DADA is the first Teaching position and subject that Harry learns of in the wizarding world. Anyhow, no more conjecture. Thank you for your time and consideration. I look forward to more questions, comments, statements, ideas, threats, and whatever. nihil From rowansjet at yahoo.com Mon Jul 26 19:53:53 2004 From: rowansjet at yahoo.com (rowansjet) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 19:53:53 -0000 Subject: New information about HBP on JKR's site In-Reply-To: <20040726173800.20458.qmail@webmail9.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107807 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amey Chinchorkar" wrote: > -Potioncat: > -There is new information about the HBP on JKR's website. It sounds > -to me that the HBP (who ever it is) was not in CoS at all after she > -re-wrote it. She has left another "foreshadowing" comment. > Amey: She says that the *HBP was not at all a part of story of Riddle Diary and Basilisk, there is no trace of HBP left in CoS*. Also, *TR is not HBP*. So that dashes at least 2 of the theories mentioned here. Thinking of all remaining theories discussed here about HBP, point no.1 & 2 tell us nothing except pointing to Slytherin (as Basilisk is King of Serpents). But as HBP is no way connected to Basilisk, I think we can rule this out (I am not ruling out Slytherin as HBP). Rowansjet: >From what she said about writing the whole of the half-blood prince story out of chamber, I think it's safe to assume it has nothing to do with Godric or Salazar (although I would like more parseltongue). I was planning on re-reading chamber of secrets just after i finish the book I'm reading at the moment (I've recently read all the books apart from this one), so there's a perfect opportunity to look for discoveries that Harry will make. --Rowansjet From dontask2much at yahoo.com Tue Jul 27 01:16:07 2004 From: dontask2much at yahoo.com (charme) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 21:16:07 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily's Heritage - New JKR FAQs References: Message-ID: <029e01c47377$4c098010$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> No: HPFGUIDX 107808 Stefanie writes: > > "As far as somebody like Lucius Malfoy is concerned, for instance, > a > > Muggle-Born is as 'bad' as a Muggle. Therefore Harry would be > > considered only 'half' wizard, because of HIS MOTHER'S > > GRANDPARENTS" - JKR FAQ page (emphasis mine) > > > > Forgive me if I'm wrong, but haven't we been lead to assume that > > Lily and Petunia's PARENTS were the Muggles contributing to > > Lily's 'Muggle-Born-ness'? > charme: SWEET! I thought I was imagining this, his mother's grandparents thing! The question is, BOTH sets of grandparents or just one set of grandparents ;) As for me, I HOPE Petunia is the one who gets the bug later in life. I think that would bet a gas to have Vernon see her do it, and the ensuing apopletic fit....oh, the new and improved shades of purple and red he will go.... From snorkack at jippii.fi Mon Jul 26 21:06:17 2004 From: snorkack at jippii.fi (tassgurka) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 21:06:17 -0000 Subject: Significant in CoS - the heirs/heiresses Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107809 My apologies if this has already ben discussed. Wondering about what discovery in CoS could be significant in for HBP, my guess is the heir-theme. After all, the founders of Hogwarts and their discord gets too little attention. For example, Slytherin built the chamber for his true heir before leaving the school. Since this seem to have been common knowledge (although no one found the chamber), one would think that the reminding founders would have come up with some counter-action to prevent the heir of Slytherin from finishing Slytherin?s evil plan. In CoS, Harry pulls the sword of Godric Gryffindor out of the sorting hat, the sword that kills the basilisk. This fact (along with Godric?s Hollow) make me a supporter of the theory that HP is the heir of Gryffindor. (I see JKR?s mentioning of the heir of Gryffindor in her Mark Evans-answer more of a "I?ll hide in this little clue for you poor things as Mark Evans is a nobody, so that you?ll get at least something from this answer" than a ridicule of the whole idea?) But why stop at the heir of Gryffindor? Shouldn?t there also be an heiress of Ravenclaw and an heiress of Hufflepuff? Together these three (with the help of whatever magic the founders have in storage for them, like Gryffindor?s sword) could in some way end the split between the houses and distroy LV, the heir of Slytherin, and restore peace in the WW. Maybe with the force DD is reffering to in OotP (p.743 Bloomsbury): "There is a room in the Department of Mysteries," interrupted Dumbeldore, "that is kept locked at all times. It contains a force that is at once more wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than the forces of nature. It is also, perhaps, the most mysterious of the many subjects for study that reside there. It is the powerheld within that room that you possess in such quantities and which Voldemort has not at all. The power took you to save Sirius tonight. That power also saved you from possession by Voldemort, because he could not bear to reside in a body so full of the force he detests. In the end, it mattered not that you could not close your mind. It was your heart that saved you." All you need is love...And my guess for heiresses? Luna Lovegood, naturally, and perhaps Susan Bones? Kati with her first message From dolis5657 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 26 20:55:10 2004 From: dolis5657 at yahoo.com (dcgmck) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:55:10 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter and The Lord of the Rings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107810 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" wrote: gildroy: > > [snip] or the character who would be expected to play a leading role in the opposing the "Dark Wizard" but in the event proves to be totally inadequate (Denethor/Cornelius Fudge). > > GEO: How can you even compare the two? Fudge totally ignored the threat of Voldemort and tried to silence those that spoke out while Denethor's only major mistakes were in overestimating how strong his bloodline was and probably listening to Sauron, but he took an active hand in opposing Sauron g Sauron unlike Fudge for instance. dcgmck: Jackson's Denethor might match up with Cornelius Fudge, but Tolkien's clearly does not. If Denethor brings anyone to mind, it is Barty Crouch, Sr. in his mistaken judgment of his sons and the folly this leads him to commit, injuring the cause of all those aligned against the Dark Lord. Denethor loses hope when he receives proof that Boromir, his favored son, is dead. Crouch loses not hope, but control, when his son, first unduly slighted, then unduly favored, returns from "the dead" state of curse control. > > > gildroy: > > The book ends as it began with Harry Potter in exile which seems to be a natural and satisfying conclusion to the story, though this ending would arguably be more C.S. Lewis than Tolkien. > > GEO: Rowling is neither Lewis or Tolkien. dcgmck: No, but she is incorporating a number of archetypes consistent with the epic genre, which makes finding a fair number of parallels almost mandatory. > > > GEO: [snip] Harry isn't a direct parallel of Frodo. IMO, he also has bits of Aragorn in him being the one who has been a thorn in the dark lord's plans and being raised in secrecy (Rivendell, Dursleys) away from their heritage. dcgmck: Actually, Harry is more like Beowulf, Jason (the Argonaut), Theseus, Oedipus, or Heracles than either Aragorn or Frodo, in that he is raised without awareness of his heritage. Aragorn is steeped in and stuffed with his heritage in Rivendell, home of his uncle so far removed. Frodo goes to live with Bilbo but frequently visits his Brandybuck and Took relatives after his parents drown. From dontask2much at yahoo.com Tue Jul 27 01:10:02 2004 From: dontask2much at yahoo.com (charme) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 21:10:02 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] C.O.S. Clues ; WAS Re: JKR website update References: Message-ID: <029701c47376$72b75850$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> No: HPFGUIDX 107811 Valky: > I can't really say, yet, but perhaps we should all watch the movie > again and hunt for a possibly unecessary scene. Diverting from the > action perhaps? > I recall a greater proportion of us were fascinated with uncovering > the "almost cut" clue scene, from COS the movie, and that many of us > were leaning towards thinking that it occurred in the earlier parts > of the film. > But I wonder if now, armed with this new information, we can hold > our concentration for longer til the end of the film and extract the > answer from the Chamber scenes. charme: There is one, when Harry is running thru the pipes, after the Basilisk has been blinded. It stuck me odd when I saw it the first time, and then I had to watch it again. I looked for that scene in the book and it's not there? It involves Harry running and a RAT runs in front of him, just to the side. Wonder if Peter Pettigrew.....naaawwww, can't be right? From jmay_71 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 26 22:41:17 2004 From: jmay_71 at yahoo.com (jmay_71) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 22:41:17 -0000 Subject: New MOM (WasRe: JKR Speaks: Arthur Weasly will NOT be next Minister o...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107812 (Snip) The question, will Authur Weasley be the NEXT Minister of Magic? Why wasn't the question, will Authur Weasley be MoM. Is there a reason for slipping the word next in? Possibly to lead us astray. (snip) The question on the website reads "Will Arthur Weasley be the NEW Minister of Magic?" (emphasis mine). The word "Next" is not used. Just trying to help - Jen From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Tue Jul 27 00:16:42 2004 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (mgrantwich) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 00:16:42 -0000 Subject: New information about HBP on JKR's site In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107813 > Amey: >I think I will be reading CoS again now to get all discoveries >Harry makes. Any additions anybody???? The existence of Knockturn Alley is one discovery Harry made. I don't believe that it was referred to at all in PS/SS. Personally since I think Snape grew up there it would be interesting to know more about that particular lane. Another suggestion: A lot of people are assuming that the HBP will be some kind of "good guy" or at least on the side of good. What if the HBP is some kind of creepy, Knockturn-Alley-ish, Dark-Arts myth or legend that comes to the surface in Book 6? Granted, the HBP isn't Harry, according to JKR, but what if a lot of wizards and witches believe that it's Harry? Does that count? Magda From dontask2much at yahoo.com Tue Jul 27 00:08:49 2004 From: dontask2much at yahoo.com (charme) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:08:49 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR website update References: Message-ID: <025401c4736d$e589cf60$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> No: HPFGUIDX 107814 From: "celestina707" > > > > I'm leaning towards the discovery of the sword of Gryffindor that > came out of the sorting hat, in hopes of Harry being the true > heir/descendant of GG. This fits with my theory that Harry is a > descedant of GG, and is why Harry and James needed to be killed by > Voldemort but Lily didn't have to die. > charme: I like this idea a lot...I'm curious though, somewhere in one of the books it's revealed that the sorting hat was Gryffindor's too, wasn't it? I'm sorry I don't have my books here or I'd check - does anybody know? From sweetface531 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 27 01:22:50 2004 From: sweetface531 at yahoo.com (Justine) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 01:22:50 -0000 Subject: Bill Weasley's fate Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107815 I had a small epiphany the other day when I was brainstorming my feeble attempt at MWPP era fan fiction... can't understand why I've never made the connection before, since it's so obvious. I almost wanted to call Bill "William Weasley" during the Sorting and realized how incredibly silly that was, since Ginny is most definitely not "Virginia." Someone has probably pointed this out before, but I don't recall that it's been in the context in which I'm about to place it. So, if we have dear Ronald Bilius Weasley and his beloved and quite cool older brother Bilius Weasley, and the history of their Uncle Bilius, should we worry about the lifespan of both? I hate to say, as so many have before, that there's no way every Weasley will survive. There are just too many for their own good. Justine, who used to, horribly enough, believe that Charlie and George were expendable... but four deaths in one lovable family seems too harsh! From jlawlor at gmail.com Tue Jul 27 01:22:51 2004 From: jlawlor at gmail.com (James Lawlor) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:22:51 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR Speaks: Arthur Weasly will NOT be next Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96773c8804072618224a7a179e@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107816 Medi de Romanus > Lucius Malfoy has been put into Azkaban prison. I believe that this > rules him out on the chance that he may become Minister of Magic. > Same with Umbridge, though she wasn't put in Azkaban, but she did set > the Dementors on the Boy-Who-Lived. Umbridge: Hem hem... I believe if you will *carefully* look over the Ministry-provided pamphlets you will notice that the Dementors have sided with You-Know-Who meaning they have not been under the control of the Ministry for quite some time now. The Ministry very regretfully acknowledges this most unfortunate oversight and would like to assure everyone that those who thought themselves capable of handling the Dementors as Ministry representatives will find that they have been wisely granted positions more closely suited to their individual abilities and limitations. As for the nasty, *vicious* rumors you may have read in the Daily Prophet, you will note that they have a history of reporting misinformation and were implicated in the cover-up of You-Know-Who's return - lead by former Minister Cornelius Fudge, may he rest in peace. The Ministry also suspects that Albus Dumbledore may be using this time of crisis and manipulating the *innocent* public's fear for political gain, and as such his spreading rumors to discredit me should surprise no one. James: It could happen... I really *really* hope not, but it probably could happen, knowing Umbridge. Personally, I don't think we'll be seeing too much more of her - she seems to have gotten her comeuppance by her encounter with the centuars and her hasty exodus from Hogwarts; it would be rather jarring to see her back as a major character again. - James Lawlor, who feels the need to wash his hands after typing the pseudo-Umbridge-speech jlawlor at gmail.com From desastreuse at yahoo.com Mon Jul 26 22:15:46 2004 From: desastreuse at yahoo.com (desastreuse) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 22:15:46 -0000 Subject: Snape's part in death of Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107817 Potioncat writes: > This could be a fun, meaty thread to debate, but I do have one > major question. With all the errors we've made with Mark Evans and > the HBP: Is it your thought that JKR is showing us that Snape > delayed looking for Harry? > > > Potioncat who admits she wasn't able to check canon before jumping > in. Cynthia: I've reread DD's explanation to Harry several times, and nowhere do I detect any hint of a delay or anything to suggest that Snape was angling for a tragic outcome. In fact, DD, through the urgency in his tone, seems earnest--even a tad desperate--to convince Harry that Snape was actually acting in his best interests as he elaborates on all of the steps Snape took as events were unfolding. We can say a lot of things about Snape, surely, but I think this is a real stretch. Snape's intuition was, if DD is correct, sound and his actions sensible and responsible. Have I missed something? From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Mon Jul 26 23:23:38 2004 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:23:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR Speaks: Arthur Weasly will NOT be next Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: <000e01c47334$ddc81ef0$2ec2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: <20040726232338.78920.qmail@web50106.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107818 The last time Voldemort was around the wizarding community turned to Barty Crouch Sr., the man with the answers, to take charge and kick serious DE-butt. I suspect now that society has accepted - reluctantly - that Voldemort's back there will be a demand for a similar man of action to take charge. I suspect one of the lessons of Book 6 might be that going from one extreme (denial of a problem, attacking the messenger [Harry]) to another (arrest DE-suspects, no matter how unlikely, en masse, restriction of civil liberties) is not a good way to go. For the same reason, I suspect that the next DADA teacher might be some kind of drill sargeant who makes Mad Eye Moody look laid back and slack. Magda __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Mon Jul 26 23:38:09 2004 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:38:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR Speaks: Arthur Weasly will NOT be next Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040726233809.60085.qmail@web50107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107819 --- ohneill_2001 wrote: > However, it is not clear how > ministers are chosen; to me "applying" for a job is different > than "running" for an office, which suggests that Ministers are not > elected, but are chosen by someone, but by whom? > --Cory The Minister of Magic is not the Prime Minister; there's nothing to say that wizards aren't citizens of Great Britain and therefore technically whoever is PM at the time is also the wizarding world's PM too. At least, according to JKR, the PM is the only muggle allowed to know about the WW. I think the Minister is selected from a (small) list of applicants/prospects by the Wizenmagamot or whatever it's called. A group of tribal elders mull over the candidates and come to an agreement on which one should get the job. I somehow doubt they do anything like vote although anonymous slips of paper in some kind of Goblet-of-Fire-type magical artifact might be utilized. Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From cincimaelder at yahoo.com Tue Jul 27 01:40:29 2004 From: cincimaelder at yahoo.com (cincimaelder) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 01:40:29 -0000 Subject: JKR website update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107820 > But since Harry's *not* the Half Blood Prince, then if he is the Heir > of Gryffindor, how will the two relate? A half-blood Percival to > Harry's King Arthur? (If we really wanted to push this, then Harry > should have gotten the sword from the giant squid. Not as glamorous as > a Lady of the Lake, but you gotta work with what they give you. On > the other hand, he might have been under the lake when he pulled the > sword out of his hat.) Will the DA find a round table in the Room of > Requirement? > > Jim Ferer Hmmm. I was so psyched about this theory, but you have a very valid point. I've been clutching at straws trying to think how GG could be HBP, but not Harry if he was heir of GG. The only thing I can come up with is during the times of GG there was a system of royalty in place, but the gov't has since changed. I don't even think I like this theory. The question I would really liked answered is, "Is the HBP someone we know?" I know, that would be revealing too much! From vmonte at yahoo.com Tue Jul 27 01:55:26 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 01:55:26 -0000 Subject: JKR website update In-Reply-To: <025401c4736d$e589cf60$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107821 celestina707 wrote: I'm leaning towards the discovery of the sword of Gryffindor that came out of the sorting hat, in hopes of Harry being the true heir/descendant of GG. This fits with my theory that Harry is a descedant of GG, and is why Harry and James needed to be killed by Voldemort but Lily didn't have to die. charme wrote: I like this idea a lot...I'm curious though, somewhere in one of the books it's revealed that the sorting hat was Gryffindor's too, wasn't it? I'm sorry I don't have my books here or I'd check - does anybody know? vmonte responds: Couldn't DD be a direct descendent of GG since the hat, and Fawkes belong to him? Harry could very well be the heir of GG since he exemplifies all the qualities that GG values. I would think that unlike Salazar, Godric would value the individual and not base worthiness on blood-lines. So Harry could be the "chosen one" that can defeat Voldemort due to the individual he is rather than due to the "cleanliness" of his blood. So in essence, the sword could only be pulled by one who was worthy-- nice GG trick. Kind of like how DD fixed the mirror of erised at the end of SS/PS. The stone would only go to someone who did not want to use it for selfish reasons. vivian From drliss at comcast.net Tue Jul 27 02:09:06 2004 From: drliss at comcast.net (Lissa Hess) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 22:09:06 -0400 Subject: Will Harry Muse or be too busy fighting In-Reply-To: <1090880948.27070.78270.m22@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20040726213715.01744cb8@mail.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 107822 SSSusan: > > *My* personal hope is that wherever he finds himself, Lupin is >there, > > and that Lupin will manage to help Harry sort some things out and > > begin to move forward. > > Siriusly Snapey Susan > >boyd: > >I hope Lupin'll be there and available to help Harry--but I doubt it. >JKR has written Harry a tough destiny, and so far that destiny has >included feeling like he has to deal with everything himself: his >feelings, his questions, his suspicions, and his enemies. Lissa: I agree with both of you. Susan, I hope Lupin can help Harry, and Boyd, I agree with you that Harry's probably on his own. I've said it before, but it bears repeating here: JKR is systematically removing all of the adults that Harry loves from him. I believe this is intentional, because Harry has to feel completely alone to take on Voldemort. In fact, I think we're going to see the kids removed from him in ways too, although those are harder to predict. I have a nasty, nasty feeling Lupin is primed for death in book 6 or 7. He's lost too much, and I don't think he'll ever let anyone close to him again. You'd think that would be a common bond between them, but I think Lupin will see hope in Harry's situation, and not in his own. I wonder if Lupin might be too bitter to really emotionally help Harry by the time we get into HBP. Boyd: And if Fudge wants to sweep LV and the DEs under the rug, how far might he go? Would he imprison OoP members (they're of questionable credibility anyway)? Force DD out of Hogwarts again? Would the OoP become a renegade force (again) despite the MoM scene? Sad, and also does not sound like Harry moving forward. Lissa: I wouldn't put some of that past Fudge. (And the nasty part of me quite likes the idea of him imprisoning OotP members. That would be so evil of JKR.) What I question is will Fudge have the authority to do this? He's out of MoM- we're pretty sure about that. But a lot depends on who becomes the next MoM, and where Fudge's standing is in the Ministry. I doubt it will be an OotP member. Honestly, it makes more plot sense for it to be someone who is pro-Voldemort, although not one of the ones doing hard time in Az. I'm having a hard time coming up with a good name, but who knows. Heck- it could be Amos Diggory. That would be pretty interesting, given Amos's method of jumping to conclusions. I guess the reason I think the MoM has to be of no help is because of exactly what Boyd said- JKR's written Harry a very lonely destiny. He can't get help from ANYWHERE- either because they can't help him or he won't let them help him. Hmmm. Can't think of more to say. Must be bedtime. Liss From jferer at yahoo.com Tue Jul 27 02:09:37 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:09:37 -0000 Subject: JKR website update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107823 Vivian:"Couldn't DD be a direct descendent of GG since the hat, and Fawkes belong to him?" The Hat belongs to the school, Fawkes is DD's. Vivian:"Harry could very well be the heir of GG since he exemplifies all the qualities that GG values. I would think that unlike Salazar, Godric would value the individual and not base worthiness on blood-lines... So Harry could be the "chosen one" that can defeat Voldemort due to the individual he is rather than due to the "cleanliness" of his blood." If you're suggesting that Harry is Gryffindor's *spiritual* heir, I think that's a terrific idea. He's exemplified the quantities Gryffindor prized - and so Harry is a true Gryffindor, worthy of the sword. Fits in nicely with Dumbledore's "choices" speech at the end of CoS. Will Harry pick up that sword again? Jim Ferer From patientx3 at aol.com Tue Jul 27 02:30:02 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:30:02 -0000 Subject: How should Harry deal with Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107824 Kyntor: > >> You do not stop bullies by giving into them, you stop them by > standing up to them. Letting them have their way just reinforces > their behavior. << Huntergreen previously: > Perhaps in the case of a pure schoolyard bully, but that's not what > Snape is, now is he? Actually, I'll go so far as to say standing up > for yourself doesn't always work (personal experience here - it can > just goad them). The other 'wisdom' about bullies is to stop them by > *ignoring* them. In the case of Harry and Snape, Harry "standing up > for himself" would appear as disrespect and insolence in Snape's > eyes. They are not peers or equals, Harry can't just talk back when > Snape insults him, it doesn't work that way. [snip] This could actually help Harry > out even if it *doesn't* get Snape to stop or change his behavior. If > he just ignores Snape, then maybe Snape won't annoy him so much, even > if he is still dripping with sarcasm, and trying to get at Harry. Alla replied: >> Oh, no, I disagree. As I said previously, I firmly believe that nothing will help Harry, no matter how much he tries to change his behaviour, untill Snape realises that Harry is not James. << HunterGreen: I'm only talking about from *Harry's* end. Even if Snape doesn't change his behavior (which I doubt he will, he's too set in his ways), it might help Harry deal with it better if he adopted a different attitude. If he simply ignored Snape, it would make it easier to not take his comments to heart. If he argues and gets into a back and forth with Snape, that'll only make things worse. (honestly, sometimes letting something go is the best way to perserve your mental health). Look at Lupin, Snape may make his little comments to him, but Lupin never really reacts or seems to care. He takes Snape with a grain of salt, as he should be taken. Alla continued: >>Therefore, I will be extremely dissapointed, if Harry stops standing up for himself. The fact that Snape is his superiour and a bully is twice as worse. I don't want Harry to take undeserved insults from Snape and just swallow them.<< It's because Snape is a superior that he has to take the insults (undeserved or not) and just swallow them. Snape, whether he's abusing it or not, *does* have authority over Harry, and its not worth detention or losing house points to argue over a sarcastic comment. When it comes to someone like Umbridge, however, I can see your point holding. In *that* situation, I sort of agreed with Harry not backing down no matter how much trouble he got in. Of course there's a difference between denying the return of an evil overlord and implying the student that he murdered died in an accident, and comparing a student unfavorably (and unjustly) to their father. Harry has to pick his battles, when it comes to Snape the fewer the better. Each time Harry 'stands up for himself' it just makes the situation worse. Alla: >> If nothing else, it is good for his character not to be as submissive as Neville is in his interactions with Snape. Hopefully, after OOP, Neville will not be either. << In the case of Neville, I think Neville is just submissive as a result of his childhood, which had nothing to do with Snape. Harry sometimes lets himself get carried away, sometimes keeping your mouth shut is the best option (such as in the case of Hermione and Snape, as unjust as it is that he doesn't call on her when her hand is raised, that *doesn't* give her permission to just speak out of turn). You are right that Snape will never change. But if Harry wanted to make potions more bearable, he could at least try to not CALL attention to himself. That's all I'm (and the others who've posted similar ideas) are saying. From MmeBurgess at msn.com Tue Jul 27 02:35:39 2004 From: MmeBurgess at msn.com (Angela Burgess) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:35:39 -0000 Subject: Possible candidate for HBP? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107825 I'm not quite positive that no one has posted on this, being only a casual visitor nowdays. I searched the messages and didn't find anything, but of course, that means nothing. So, please, if it's been discussed before, save the Howlers and simply send Owls. Anyway, after all the discussion of the HBP, I was looking at JKR's site and went to the Extra Stuff page. Under the "Edits" category, she talks about Dean Thomas' background and how his storyline had been cut from CoS. Turns out that, if it had ever made it into the books, we would have learned in CoS that Dean is not solely Muggle- born, but instead has an unnamed wizard father who is killed by DE during the first war after having run away to save his family. Could it be that simple? Would she really post the clues to the HBP right there, where it is so easy to find? Or am I just desperately looking for answers where there are none to be found without more info? Curiously, Angela From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 27 02:52:35 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:52:35 -0000 Subject: Snape, Spy, Occlumens Re: [HPforGrownups] (was Still wondering why Snape trusts In-Reply-To: <200407230144.14870.silmariel@telefonica.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107826 I (Carol) wrote: Oops. I guess I should watch my pronouns. I didn't mean that *Voldemort* is using Snape as a spy. Carolina responded: > I did. > Carol wrote: I meant that Snape is spying on *him.* > Carolina responded: > Also. > Carol wrote: The whole idea of his being an occlumens is that he can block his mind against a Legilimens like Voldemort > Carolina responded: > --or Dumbledore. The whole idea of being an occlumens is being able to spy under radar. If Snape's mind is open to Dumbledore's by default, he is of no use to Voldie. Carol now: But I don't think he's spying for Voldemort, though he may be pretending to. And we don't know that Voldemort knows that Dumbledore is a legilimens. All Snape has to do is pass along (with Dumbledore's full knowledged and permission) information that's of some use to Voldemort in order to maintain his credibility. Besides, assuming that Snape was hired to teach at Hogwarts at the beginning of term in the year Voldemort was vaporized, the "spying" on Dumbledore would have lasted only two months before Godric's Hollow and would not have really started up again until the end of GoF, when Snape, having missed the gathering at the graveyard, went on his dangerous mission--which I take to be an explanation of his absence to *Lucius Malfoy*. If, after that, he had to attend Death Eater meetings to find out their plans for the Order, he would have needed occlumency to hide his real intentions from Voldemort. For Voldemort to know that he was an occlumens, capable of concealing information from *him*, would be extremely dangerous to Snape. I (Carol) wrote: So, to clarify, I repeat: Voldemort can't know that Snape is an occlumens or Snape would be unable to attend meetings (or whatever he does) without being suspected as a spy. (As it is, I'm pretty sure that Voldemort suspects his loyalty for other reasons, and that he is "the one I believe has left me forever"--but he seems to have convinced Lucius Malfoy, at least, that he's actually still loyal.) Carolina responded: > Snape is spying for Voldemort or pretending he does so. If he is not an occlumens he is of no use to Voldemort and shouldn't be attending those DE parties and later come home with a legillimens as DD to open read those secret parties. Voldemorts knows that Snape is an occlumens or Snape is no use. How can he pretend to be 'good' in front of DD without being an occlumens? > If you don't buy that Snape is a double agent, that's another question. Carol responds: "Pretend" to be good? I think he *is* good--or at least genuinely on the good side and loyal to Dumbledore. I never said he wasn't an occlumens. Of course he is. Even Lupin calls him a "superb occlumens." I said that I think Dumbledore taught him occlumency to protect enable him to spy on Voldemort with less risk. It's possible that he's also using his occlumency to hide his intentions from *Dumbledore,* but I don't think that's the case. As I said before, even if Snape is pretending to spy on Dumbledore (as opposed to *really* spying on him), there's no reason why he needs to use occlumency to hide his intentions from *Dumbledore* because (IMO) he's on Dumbledore's side. Nor does Voldemort need to know that he's an occlumens. I think it would be suicidal to reveal that particular ability to Voldemort. But Snape *does* need to be an occlumens to hide his disloyalty from Voldemort, assuming that Snape still deals with Voldemort directly. I think that Dumbledore taught him occlumency early in his spying career, before he began teaching at Hogwarts, while Voldemort thought he was still a loyal DE. It's entirely possible that young Snape began teaching at Hogwarts before Godric's Hollow, at the beginning of term, under the *pretext* of spying on Dumbledore. But he would have needed his occlumency to hide his real intention from Voldemort--and that would have been impossible if Voldemort, too, knew that he was an occlumens. I don't think we're ever going to agree on this one! Carol, who got sunburned in San Diego and is grateful for rain in Tucson From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 27 03:33:12 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 03:33:12 -0000 Subject: Most burning Snape question? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107827 Neri: 1) Was Snape in the graveyard with the other death eaters after > Voldemort was reborn? > 2) Did Snape go to Voldemort after Dumbledore asked him "are you ready"? > 3) Does Snape use Occlumency in his job for the Order? > 4) When Snape was a death eater, did he know Lucius was a death eater > too? > 5) Was Snape the eavesdropper who overheard the Prophecy in the Hog's > Head? > 6) Did Snape commit any terrible things during his time as a death eater? > 7) Did Voldemort originally sent Snape to Dumbledore as Voldemort's spy? > 8) Did Snape become a teacher in Hogwarts before or after the Potters' > death? Carol adds: Great job, Neri! You've touched on some important points. Only I don't think they should be phrased as yes-or-no questions. I think they should be reworded slightly to elicit a longer response, along the lines of: Where did Snape go at the end of "Goblet of Fire"? What does Snape do for the Order? Is Snape the DE Voldemort believes will not return and if so is Voldemort correct? (Okay, JKR probably won't answer that one.) Why wasn't Snape in the graveyard scene in GoF? (If he *was* there, she'll say something sneaky like, "What makes you think he wasn't there?) What terrible things, if any, did Snape do while he was a Death Eater? Where was Snape when the Potters were killed? Etc. You get the idea. I would also like to know how old Snape was when he joined the Death Eaters, whether his main contact now is Lucius Malfoy or Voldemort himself, where he lives during the summer, what happened to his parents, and a lot of other things that won't help us much but would assuage my curiosity. There's also the question Kneasy asked some time ago about why the sixteen-year-old Severus didn't reveal that Remus Lupin was a werewolf and Sirius Black had tried to kill him. Carol, who congratulates Laura and wishes her good luck in getting her question answered! From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 27 04:20:26 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 04:20:26 -0000 Subject: Doesn't Voldemort know about Snape's loyalty? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107828 Neri wrote: As many have pointed out in the past, having DD by the end of GoF saying to Snape (paraphrasing from memory) "You know what I must ask from you... if you are ready" and the pale Snape (who had just shown his dark mark to Fudge) saying "I am" and sweeps out, all this dramatic effect seems rather wasted on Lucius, or on anyone other than Voldy. Besides, would Lucius have any relations with someone that Voldy had declared dead meat? I doubt it. But it is very likely that Snape had Lucius putting a good word for him, thus bying a chance to recite his excuses before Voldy AKs him on the spot. > > Tara responded: I like to hope that Voldemort thinks Snape is the cowardly one and Karkaroff is the one who is never returning. We don't know for sure the demeanor of these two when they were practicing death eaters... I think too that Snape's talents of Occulmency help him to keep his true feelings from Voldemort. Carol responds: I'm just curious as to why you like to hope that. Is it because Voldemort said that the one who has left him forever will be killed? I don't see how Voldemort could think it possible that anyone but Karkaroff was the coward, since he would know Karkaroff's personality from before and know that some of the DEs (notably Rookwood) considered him responsible for their capture and would want revenge. That would give Karkaroff reason to "flee." Also, it's likely that Crouch!Moody was spying on both Snape and Karkaroff and reporting back to Voldemort (via eagle owl?) that Snape was loyal not to Voldemort but to Dumbledore. I don't think there's any doubt that Snape is the one Voldemort believes will not return in the graveyard scene. If the reason you hope Voldemort thinks Snape is the coward is that, if so, Snape will only be punished and not killed, it may help to consider the possibility that Voldemort has been persuaded (probably via Lucius Malfoy, as Neri says) that Snape had a good reason for not appearing in the graveyard: you can't apparate from Hogwarts. Also, Voldemort is not a prophet, so "he will be killed" is not a prophecy, even if Voldemort again suspects Snape of disloyalty after the MoM fiasco. Carol, hoping this is helpful to Tara and hasn't bored everyone who's heard these arguments before From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 27 04:27:08 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 04:27:08 -0000 Subject: Balance of Power in the Wizarding World In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107829 samnanya wrote: > I am very curious about what others may think regarding this : > > With the death of Sirius, I feel that there was a shift of power > to the dark wizards which would be very dramatic if DD were to > fall. Sirius was by all accounts a very powerful wizard for the > Order, second only to Dumbledore. > If there is to be this "battle" that everyone seems to want, how > do the adult combatants compare ? > > My view: [In "good -- bad" format] - > > Dumbledore & McGonagall -- Voldemort & Bellatrix > Sirius (dec) -- Dolohoff > Hagrid & Shacklebolt -- Crabbe & Goyle > Arthur Weasley -- Lucius Malfoy > Lupin -- Wormtail > Tonks, Mad Eye Moony, Flitwick -- other death eaters > Snape -- Rookwood Avery {the devious group} > Crookshanks -- Wormtail {both are weak and crafty} > Trevor {a prince} -- Nott {hasn't been very impressive.....} > > I know I probably left some people out.... > Suggestions and comments? Carol responds: Like several other people, I'm curious as to why you think Sirius is so powerful: "second only to Dumbledore"? That's where I'd place Snape, whom you have ranked very low for some reason, even though to all appearances he's Dumbledore's right-hand man. Carol From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Tue Jul 27 04:49:12 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 27 Jul 2004 04:49:12 -0000 Subject: Fudge/Transfer of Power/Lily's Family Message-ID: <20040727044912.17393.qmail@webmail31.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107830 - Now Cory: - I think we know that new ministers do not have to come from within - the Ministry, don't we? Before Fudge came to power, we know that a - lot of people wanted Dumbledore for Minister, but that Dumbledore - wasn't interested and "never applied for the job." (OoP, p. 93, U.S. - version). I'm not sure if we have canon for how long Fudge has been - in power, Amey: We know from GoF that till first war, even upto the time Lestranges were captured, Fudge was not MoM. He was member of Ministry, and Crouch Sr. was marked as next MoM, but he got discredited and Fudge got job. All in all, I think it gives Fudge around 14 years in his chair. - Potioncat: - I've got a fine toothed comb too... foreshadowing can also mean he - discovers something in a similar way, or discovers something similar - in CoS to what he will experience in HBP. He may discover a new - ability that also comes from LV. Who knows? Amey: Just a thought here, CoS: "If I say it myself, Harry, I've always been able to charm the people I needed.? -TR - Lynette Replies : - See 1004802 for probably the first post suggesting this. As you - mentioned, Hagrid himself is a huge mystery (yeah, in every sense of - the word). Perhaps his lineage is why Dumbledore opted to keep him - around after he was expelled, and also perhaps why Lucius Malfoy was - so anxious to get him to Azkaban. Amey: If you are talking about CoS, Lucius was not at all interested in Hagrid, he was there in Hagrid?s hut because Dumbledore was there. It was Fudge who wanted to * do something*. And I don?t think Dumbledore would care for lineage either way. - Justine: - This is, of course, further evidence that Petunia is a squib, but - does it have any further impact on the story? Petunia's potential - squibness (and her potential acquisition of magical powers later in - life) have been discussed long before this... is there something - we're missing? Amey: Wait a bit, this also solves one more mystery "Knew!" shrieked Aunt Petunia suddenly. "Knew! Of course we knew! How could you not be, my dratted sister being what she was? Oh, she got a letter just like that and disappeared off to that-that school-and came home every vacation with her pockets full of frog spawn, turning teacups into rats. I was the only one who saw her for what she was?a freak! But for my mother and father, oh no, it was Lily this and Lily that, they were proud of having a witch in the family!" This solves the mystery how Lily could easily do magic at home in vacation, if her family was magic. But the second sentence contradicts it, or is this Petunia who is afraid that Vernon will find out she has magical blood (though a squib)??? Amey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From idcre at imap2.asu.edu Tue Jul 27 04:51:24 2004 From: idcre at imap2.asu.edu (backstagemystic) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 04:51:24 -0000 Subject: Snape questions for JK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107831 In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "laura" wrote/shared her questions for JKR: >> 1) Can you give us any indication as to how Snape finds out what Voldemort is saying to his Deatheaters?<< Um...Parent-Teacher conferences? [Sorry, couldn't resist.] It's a good question, but you might consider working-in the TRUST aspect that many of us feel is a major challenge to Snape's task. So, perhaps phrase it something like this: "Considering his loyalty must be suspect, just how does Snape manage to find out what Voldemort is saying to his Deatheaters? Won't they be on their guard?" It might get JKR to reveal something on either Snape's methodology, or his status among the Deatheaters (though I'm not holding my breath). >> 2) Why DOES Snape call Voldemort 'the Dark Lord'?<< Snape got hexed by the Squidward curse the last time he called him "Voldie." [All right, I'll stop]. It's another good question, but since even Harry couldn't get it answered in Book V, JKR isn't likely to volunteer it to us now. > 3) Can you tell us anything about Snape's family, for example, if > they're 'pure-bloods' or if he's related to any of the characters > we've met so far? OOOOH...try asking this to get your answer: "Has the Snape family name ever been on the Black Family Tapestry, and if so, is Severus Snape's name STILL legible, or is it now a char mark?" In OotP, when Harry noticed on the tapestry that the Black family was related to the Malfoys, Sirius specifically said "The pure-blood families are ALL interrelated." He also pointed-out the char-marks which indicated those who had been on the tapestry, but who had fallen out of favor with his mother as blood-traitors (Sirius himself, the Weasley family, etc. are examples of this). Hence, if JKR confirms or denies the presence and/or legibility of Severus Snape's name on that tapestry, that will tell us quite a bit about him (or, at the very least, it will tell us what Black's mother thought of him up until she died). If JKR dodges the question, then we'll know that it bears too much relevance for her to reveal anything about it. >>And the killer question.....<< > 4) Is there any truth in the rumours that Snape loved Lily? As someone else pointed out, Snape wouldn't have to have loved Lily in the romantic sense; so, to make sure JKR doesn't assume what you're asking, you might phrase your question something like this: "Did Snape, whether romantically or platonically, love or care about Lily Evans in any way?" Again, great questions. It's up to you to leave them or re-word them as you wish. Here's keeping our fingers crossed that you actually get to ask them. Best of luck to you, and have a GREAT time! BM From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 27 04:51:42 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 04:51:42 -0000 Subject: Ginny and the entrancing Veil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107832 dcgmck wrote: > > Still, I don't think the memory of Riddle knew any more of what his > future self had done than what Ginny told him in the diary before > Harry started communicating with him. Of course, then Riddle > possessed Ginny again... OK. But Harry knew even less than Ginny > did in his second year at Hogwarts. OK, I'm confused again. How > would the memory have learned enough to contaminate Ginny, unless > it was outside of the visible narrative line while at the Malfoy > estate? > > Cory responded: > > The more I think about this, the more I think I was wrong in my last > post. My initial thought was that, althought the diary was made by > Riddle when he was 16, it somehow "grew" with Riddle/Voldemort as > he matured, and therefore the Riddle that was in the diary had > knowledge of everything that Voldemort was to become. Upon further > reflection (and having looked back at the chapter in COS where > Riddle was talking to Harry in the Chamber), I think I might have > been wrong about this. > > > Diane added: > > Since the diary was in Malfoy's possession, perhaps Malfoy was > keeping Voldemort up to date with the WW. Malfoy could have been > ordered by VM to plant the diary on someone close to Harry. Ginny > Weasley seemed like a good choice given her dad is a major thorn in > Malfoy's side. Just my two knuts. > > Diane Carol adds: He couldn't have been ordered by Voldemort himself to do it since Voldemort was vaporized. But if you mean that he write in the duarty to see what it was and was ordered by the future Voldemort, Diary!Tom, to do it, I think I agree with you. That would explain how Diary!Tom knew as much as he did about his future self and about Harry. The question then becomes how Malfoy came by the diary in the first place and why he chose that particular time to write in it. I suppose it would depend on how much he knew about the Philosopher's Stone incident. Yes, Dumbledore tells Harry that "the whole school knows" what happened between him and Quirrell, but rumors spread among the students would tend to be inaccurate and Dumbledore himself tends to be reticent at the end-of-school banquets. Would Draco have known that Voldemort was in the back of Quirrell's head and was again lurking in something like spirit form? Maybe the half-knowledge that Ludius acquired from Draco was the spur that sent him to the diary? But again, how did he come by it in the first place? He was only about twenty-six when Voldemort was defeated at Godric's Hollow, and Voldemort was not anticipating defeat. Why would he have given his old school things to Lucius? My theory (okay, speculation) is that Lucius found the diary at Hogwarts as a schoolboy and kept it. He must have discovered *then* who Tom Riddle was and been ordered to keep the diary secret until he felt the need to use it. Anyone think this view is plausible? Carol From patientx3 at aol.com Tue Jul 27 05:43:15 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 05:43:15 -0000 Subject: Lily's Family In-Reply-To: <20040727044912.17393.qmail@webmail31.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107833 Justine wrote: >> - This is, of course, further evidence that Petunia is a squib, but - does it have any further impact on the story? Petunia's potential - squibness (and her potential acquisition of magical powers later in - life) have been discussed long before this... is there something - we're missing? << Amey replied: >> Wait a bit, this also solves one more mystery "Knew!" shrieked Aunt Petunia suddenly. "Knew! Of course we knew! How could you not be, my dratted sister being what she was? [snip] But for my mother and father, oh no, it was Lily this and Lily that, they were proud of having a witch in the family!" This solves the mystery how Lily could easily do magic at home in vacation, if her family was magic. But the second sentence contradicts it, or is this Petunia who is afraid that Vernon will find out she has magical blood (though a squib)??? << HunterGreen: Couldn't it have just been that Mr. and Mrs. Evans *knew* a family who happened to have a muggle-born wizard child and became very jealous? Obviously, not all muggles are going to have a horrible reaction to magic like Vernon and Petunia. Imagine if some friend of the family with a child older than Petunia and Lily got a Hogwarts letter and told the Evans' about it (I know there are rules of secrecy and all that, but who says that *muggles* always follow it?). The Evans' could have got all excited by the idea and thus would have been thrilled to death when (by amazing concidence) one of their daughters ended up getting a Hogwarts letter too. Which would explain the 'proud to have a witch in the family' sentiment. Although I like the idea of the Evans family being actually wizard or related to wizards somewhere in their bloodline, OTOH it would seem like sort of a cheat. Somewhere along the lines of if we found out Hermione had a wizard hidden in her family. The fact that Lily is a muggle-born wizard (and thus Harry is a half-blood), has been made such a point in the series, that it would seem odd if it was suddenly negated. ESPECIALLY if it wasn't even something that was a huge secret (if Petunia was referring to that in her speech, then it can't be much of a secret...we knew she is much better at keeping a secret than that). From musicofsilence at hotmail.com Tue Jul 27 06:10:46 2004 From: musicofsilence at hotmail.com (lifeavantgarde) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 06:10:46 -0000 Subject: Lily's Family In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107834 --------------- Justine wrote: This is, of course, further evidence that Petunia is a squib, but does it have any further impact on the story? Petunia's potential squibness (and her potential acquisition of magical powers later in life) have been discussed long before this... is there something we're missing? -------------- -------------- Amey replied: Wait a bit, this also solves one more mystery "Knew!" shrieked Aunt Petunia suddenly. "Knew! Of course we knew! How could you not be, my dratted sister being what she was? [snip] But for my mother and father, oh no, it was Lily this and Lily that, they were proud of having a witch in the family!"This solves the mystery how Lily could easily do magic at home in vacation, if her family was magic. But the second sentence contradicts it, or is this Petunia who is afraid that Vernon will find out she has magical blood (though a squib)??? -------------- -------------- HunterGreen: Couldn't it have just been that Mr. and Mrs. Evans *knew* a family who happened to have a muggle-born wizard child and became very jealous? Obviously, not all muggles are going to have a horrible reaction to magic like Vernon and Petunia. Although I like the idea of the Evans family being actually wizard or related to wizards somewhere in their bloodline, OTOH it would seem like sort of a cheat. Somewhere along the lines of if we found out Hermione had a wizard hidden in her family. The fact that Lily is a muggle-born wizard (and thus Harry is a half-blood), has been made such a point in the series, that it would seem odd if it was suddenly negated. --------------- Stefanie: The only thing is this new information, if it is indeed true and not a typo, in the FAQ. It clearly says both: "Therefore Harry would be considered only 'half' wizard, because of his MOTHER'S GRANDPARENTS." and "[I] was chilled to see that the Nazis used PRECISELY THE SAME warped logic as the Death Eaters. A single Jewish grandparent 'polluted' the blood, according to their propaganda." (emphasis mine in both) To me this is HUGE. Especially the bit where it blatantly says that Harry is only half, not because of Muggle grandparents, but because of his MOTHER'S grandparents! It's been pretty much speculation when someone has pinned Lily's parents as anything but Muggles. But this FAQ answer blatantly states that ***Harry is Half-Blood because of his great-grandparents.*** What on *earth* were his grandparents, then??? From davyval at comcast.net Tue Jul 27 03:33:44 2004 From: davyval at comcast.net (dnp1234) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 03:33:44 -0000 Subject: Possible candidate for HBP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107835 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Angela Burgess" wrote: > Anyway, after all the discussion of the HBP, I was looking at JKR's > site and went to the Extra Stuff page. Under the "Edits" category, > she talks about Dean Thomas' background and how his storyline had > been cut from CoS. Turns out that, if it had ever made it into the > books, we would have learned in CoS that Dean is not solely Muggle- > born, but instead has an unnamed wizard father who is killed by DE > during the first war after having run away to save his family. > > Could it be that simple? Angela, At 1st I had the same thought...but Rowling also says that the reason that she cut Dean Thomas out was the fact the she needed to cut some things out of the story and Neville was more important to the overall plot of the books so she developed Neville and cut the additional information on Dean out. If he were the half blood prince I think she would have built his character up more. Davy From estrom2000 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 27 05:29:44 2004 From: estrom2000 at yahoo.com (estrom2000) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 05:29:44 -0000 Subject: Why Lucius may actually end up the next Minister In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107836 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Inge" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mandy" > wrote: > >>JKR has updated her web site again and says Arthur will not be the next Minister of Magic. >> > ...snip... > >>I'm > just not coming up with any others right now...any thoughts? > > Inge: > Try Lucius Malfoy? Nellie: Why not - *if* Voldemort takes over MoM. After all, Pr. Trelawney predicted that he would rise "greater and more terrible than ever before." From what we know of his first reign of terror - people being killed right and left, nobody knowing whom to trust, those who resisted him being picked off one by one - I can't imagine what else can be "more terrible" (except, of course, for his taking over Hogwarts, but I don't think that's going to happen). And it seems to me very plausible that he'd install a strong but loyal supporter in MoM rather then become the Minister himself, because this would free him to take charge of conquering the rest of the country, making an onslaught on Hogwarts, and trying to expand overseas. Also, he would probably think the title of Minister not grand enough for himself. I agree that Lucius Malfoy is not subtle and diplomatic enough to become the Minister of Magic under normal circumstances, but Voldemort might very well prefer to have an intimidating thug with aristocratic background and connections who wholeheartedly supports his creed and policies in this position. Nellie, who apologizes for making such a grim prediction, but feels that as long as Hogwarts is firmly in Dumbledore's hands, book 6 may still turn out to be warmer than book 5. From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 27 06:42:36 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 06:42:36 -0000 Subject: Lily's Family In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107837 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lifeavantgarde" > > Stefanie: > > ...edited... > "Therefore Harry would be considered only 'half' wizard, because of > his MOTHER'S GRANDPARENTS." > ...edited... > > To me this is HUGE. Especially the bit where it blatantly says that > Harry is only half, not because of Muggle grandparents, but because > of his MOTHER'S grandparents! It's been pretty much speculation when > someone has pinned Lily's parents as anything but Muggles. But this > FAQ answer blatantly states that ***Harry is Half-Blood because of > his great-grandparents.*** What on *earth* were his grandparents, > then??? > > Stefanie Asian_lovr2: Don't get too excited. I thought it was HUGE when JKR confirmed on her website the JAMES came out of Voldy's wand first. That certainly threw a twist into things. We had already discussed it in great detail when suddenly, JKR's website changed to say 'Lily first then James'. Given that and several other inconsistencies on her website, perhaps she should run her new posts by Steve Vander Ark of the 'Harry Potter Lexicon' before she actually posts them. Until the statement has remained unchallenged on her websiter for 30 days, I'm not considering it a fact. Personally, I think she actually meant to say either 'his mother's PARENTS' or Harry's grandparents. Just a thought. Steve/asian_lovr2 From musicofsilence at hotmail.com Tue Jul 27 07:54:43 2004 From: musicofsilence at hotmail.com (lifeavantgarde) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 07:54:43 -0000 Subject: Lily's Family In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107838 > > Stefanie: > > > > ...edited... > > "Therefore Harry would be considered only > > 'half' wizard, because of > > his MOTHER'S GRANDPARENTS." > > ...edited... > > > > To me this is HUGE. Especially the > > bit where it blatantly says that > > Harry is only half, not because of > > Muggle grandparents, but because > > of his MOTHER'S grandparents! [snip] this > > FAQ answer blatantly states that > > ***Harry is Half-Blood because of > > his great-grandparents.*** What on > > *earth* were his grandparents, then??? >>>Asian_lovr2: Don't get too excited. I thought it was HUGE when JKR confirmed on her website the JAMES came out of Voldy's wand first. That certainly threw a twist into things. We had already discussed it in great detail when suddenly, JKR's website changed to say 'Lily first then James'. [snip] Until the statement has remained unchallenged on her websiter for 30 days, I'm not considering it a fact. Personally, I think she actually meant to say either 'his mother's PARENTS' or Harry's grandparents. Stefanie replies: Hehe, you snipped my disclaimer Xo) >>Stefanie: >>The only thing is this new information, if it >>is indeed true and not >>a typo, in the FAQ. The wand order thing messed with my theory-ridden mind for the whole day and a half or so that it was up (I did refer to it in my original post, also). But even without the "mother's grandparents" deal, the whole FAQ answer has Harry's half-bloodedness detail questions written all over it. (But if anything, it did seal the deal that James is pure-blooded, for me. There's been so much speculation that Harry is half-blooded because Lily is really half and James is half or whatever combination you can think of -- but the fact that she clarified the Death Eater's standpoint is important. Bellatrix and Lucius would consider Lily of "tainted" blood no matter the distance of Muggle ancestor -- if James also were to have "tainted blood" they wouldn't call Harry half-blood, but probably just plain "mudblood." It seems that their saying "half-blood" really is their inability to deny James' purebloodedness.) In my original post I suggested her possibly meaning to refer to his grandparents on his mother's side and muddling it up in that way. As for now? It's canon until it's revoked, in my book Xo) Stefanie From dolis5657 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 27 07:48:38 2004 From: dolis5657 at yahoo.com (dcgmck) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 07:48:38 -0000 Subject: Lily's Family In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107839 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > Stefanie: > > > > ...edited... > > "Therefore Harry would be considered only 'half' wizard, because of his MOTHER'S GRANDPARENTS." > > ...edited... > > > > To me this is HUGE. Especially the bit where it blatantly says that Harry is only half, not because of Muggle grandparents, but because of his MOTHER'S grandparents! > > Asian_lovr2: > > Don't get too excited. I thought it was HUGE when JKR confirmed on her website the JAMES came out of Voldy's wand first. That certainly threw a twist into things. We had already discussed it in great detail when suddenly, JKR's website changed to say 'Lily first then James'. > [snip] > Until the statement has remained unchallenged on her websiter for 30 > days, I'm not considering it a fact. Personally, I think she actually meant to say either 'his mother's PARENTS' or Harry's grandparents. dcgmck: OK. Caution duly noted... But... If, in fact, JKR actually titillated us intentionally instead of accidentally (and not just out of the excitement of her recently announced pregnancy), why do I have no recollection of anyone ever calling Harry a 'mudblood'? Malfoy exhibits no reticence in using the term on everyone else of evident Muggle heritage, so why stop with Harry, whom he so clearly loathes and envies? From patientx3 at aol.com Tue Jul 27 08:19:31 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:19:31 -0000 Subject: Lily's Family In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107840 Stefanie: >>The only thing is this new information, if it is indeed true and not a typo, in the FAQ. It clearly says both: "Therefore Harry would be considered only 'half' wizard, because of his MOTHER'S GRANDPARENTS." and "[I] was chilled to see that the Nazis used PRECISELY THE SAME warped logic as the Death Eaters. A single Jewish grandparent 'polluted' the blood, according to their propaganda." (emphasis mine in both) To me this is HUGE. Especially the bit where it blatantly says that Harry is only half, not because of Muggle grandparents, but because of his MOTHER'S grandparents! It's been pretty much speculation when someone has pinned Lily's parents as anything but Muggles. But this FAQ answer blatantly states that ***Harry is Half-Blood because of his great-grandparents.*** What on *earth* were his grandparents, then??? << HunterGreen: I'm thinking its just a typo. Why would their family be so *proud* to have a witch in the family if one or both of Lily/Petunia's parents was a witch or wizard already? Wouldn't they *expect* to have magical children? Lily has been stated as being muggle-born many times (even once to her face in the pensieve flashback and she doesn't refute it). Reading the text in the question (the way its worded), it really sounds like a typo to me. I'm going with Steve, I'll only believe it after its been up there a month. From patientx3 at aol.com Tue Jul 27 08:29:41 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:29:41 -0000 Subject: Lily's Family In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107841 dcgmck: >>[snip] why do I have no recollection of anyone ever calling Harry a 'mudblood'? Malfoy exhibits no reticence in using the term on everyone else of evident Muggle heritage, so why stop with Harry, whom he so clearly loathes and envies? << HunterGreen: Because Harry is a HALF-blood, not a muggle-born. He has a pure-blood father, so he's not quite a 'mudblood' (as far I as understand it, the term is for muggle-born witches/wizards, and I suppose it could be extended to the child of two muggleborns or a muggleborn and a muggle, etc). He's no more a 'mudblood' than Tonks is. 'Half-blood' can be considered an insult as well, as Bellatrix uses it that way in the DoM after Harry calls Voldemort by his name. Voldemort, by the way, would probably see that disctinction as well, since HE is a half-blood, and refers to Harry's mother (in CoS) as a 'mudblood'. According to Ron in CoS, "Mudblood's a really foul name for someone who is Muggle-born - you know, non-magic parents.". But, I suppose, if Lily were the child of two muggleborns they might see fit to call her a mudblood, I just don't know if SHE would just accept that. From musicofsilence at hotmail.com Tue Jul 27 08:38:10 2004 From: musicofsilence at hotmail.com (lifeavantgarde) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:38:10 -0000 Subject: Lily's Family In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107842 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "huntergreen_3" wrote: > Stefanie: > >>The only thing is this new information, if it is indeed true and not > a typo, in the FAQ. It clearly says both: > "Therefore Harry would be considered only 'half' wizard, because of > his MOTHER'S GRANDPARENTS." > and > "[I] was chilled to see that the Nazis used PRECISELY THE SAME > warped logic as the Death Eaters. A single Jewish > grandparent 'polluted' the blood, according to their propaganda." > (emphasis mine in both) > > To me this is HUGE. Especially the bit where it blatantly says that > Harry is only half, not because of Muggle grandparents, but because > of his MOTHER'S grandparents! It's been pretty much speculation when > someone has pinned Lily's parents as anything but Muggles. But this > FAQ answer blatantly states that ***Harry is Half-Blood because of > his great-grandparents.*** What on *earth* were his grandparents, > then??? << > > HunterGreen: > I'm thinking its just a typo. Why would their family be so *proud* to > have a witch in the family if one or both of Lily/Petunia's parents > was a witch or wizard already? Wouldn't they *expect* to have magical > children? Lily has been stated as being muggle-born many times (even > once to her face in the pensieve flashback and she doesn't refute > it). Reading the text in the question (the way its worded), it really > sounds like a typo to me. I'm going with Steve, I'll only believe it > after its been up there a month. Stefanie: Speculation entirely, but Lily and Petunia's parents' pride *could* stem from one of their parents being a Muggle. Knowing that they have a branch of non-magical line, and if Petunia were born first as a squib, I'm sure it would seem to little Petunia that they were overly proud of Lily's abilities. Then there's always the "Evans family in the 'Wizards Protection Program'" theory. I don't know...the bit about the "one grandparent" in regards to Nazi propaganda being like DE mentality -- maybe only one of Harry's grandparents were Muggle? Of course she could've just been using an example in quoting this, but in conjunction with the possible typo...it certainly makes one think a bit. From sad1199 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 27 08:16:18 2004 From: sad1199 at yahoo.com (sad1199) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:16:18 -0000 Subject: Lily's Family In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107843 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lifeavantgarde" wrote: > -------------- > Amey replied: > "Knew!" shrieked Aunt Petunia suddenly. "Knew! Of course we knew! > How could you not be, my dratted sister being what she was? [snip] > But for my mother and father, oh no, it was Lily this and Lily that, > they were proud of having a witch in the family!" This solves the > mystery how Lily could easily do magic at home in vacation, if her > family was magic. But the second sentence contradicts it, or is this > Petunia who is afraid that Vernon will find out she has magical blood > (though a squib)??? > -------------- > > -------------- > HunterGreen: >> > Although I like the idea of the Evans family being actually wizard > or related to wizards somewhere in their bloodline, OTOH it would > seem like sort of a cheat. > --------------- > > Stefanie: > The only thing is this new information, if it is indeed true and > not a typo, in the FAQ. It clearly says both: > "Therefore Harry would be considered only 'half' wizard, because of > his MOTHER'S GRANDPARENTS." > and "[I] was chilled to see that the Nazis used PRECISELY THE SAME > warped logic as the Death Eaters. A single Jewish grandparent > 'polluted' the blood, according to their propaganda." > (emphasis mine in both) > > FAQ answer blatantly states that ***Harry is Half-Blood because of > his great-grandparents.*** What on *earth* were his grandparents, > then??? sad1199 replies: Elves. Think back to the Mirror of Erised. Little old guy, knobby knees, green eyes... Lily's and Harry's green eyes... A magic stronger than wizard's stopped Voldemaort's curse... I believe that somewhere in Harry's ancestry is elvin blood. Another reason for Petunia to be SO anti-wizard. A deep secret she carries even hidden from Vernon. It's obvious she has knowledge of WW. Why would some complete Muggle even show regard to a letter dropped off by an unknown(?) wizard and do what it says? If she truly hated Lily and did not know (personally) of WW she would have sent Harry off to an orphanage. Dumbledore's got some sort of hold on her. From katiebug1233 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 27 08:38:58 2004 From: katiebug1233 at yahoo.com (Kate) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:38:58 -0000 Subject: JKR website update In-Reply-To: <025401c4736d$e589cf60$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107844 charme: > I like this idea a lot...I'm curious though, somewhere in one of > the books it's revealed that the sorting hat was Gryffindor's too, > wasn't it? I'm sorry I don't have my books here or I'd check - > does anybody know? Yes, In one of the Sorting Hat's songs he says that GG took the hat off his own head and "gave it brains" so the hat could continue to sort the students after the founders had left the school. As for the discovery made in CoS... Harry discovered a lot about Hagrid in that book. The fact that Tom Riddle framed him, he was innocent and that Arogog exists. I sure hope that the Hagrid is the HBP. Cheers, Katie From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Tue Jul 27 08:57:25 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 04:57:25 -0400 Subject: JKR Speaks: Arthur Weasly will NOT be next Minister Message-ID: <001001c473b7$be4be1f0$6ec2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 107845 Neil said: "Her answer, alas no. The question, will Authur Weasley be the NEXT Minister of Magic? Why wasn't the question, will Authur Weasley be MoM. Is there a reason for slipping the word next in? Possibly to lead us astray." DuffyPoo now: Goldfoy posted the other day about the HP & LOTR links. At one point it was said: "I believe that the parallels between the two works will be reinforced in Book 6 when Cornelius Fudge is replaced as Minister for Magic by someone who appears at first sight to be a most unlikely candidate for the job." I would like to go a bit further and say that the *person* in book 6 will be unsuitable because of what we find out about that person and how they work at the top during the course of the year, and then the person will be replaced in book 7 - by Arthur Weasley, who I personally think is perfect for the job partly because of his non-skewed view of the purity of wizard blood issue. What I mean is, he's thinks Muggles are as important in this world as wizards. I'm thinking Umbridge, Percy Weasley, Ludo Bagman, any of the still *respectable* DE's ... ones that have not yet been found out, and I'm quite certain we haven't seen all of them yet. I'm thinking, the person will start out looking respectable, become un-respectable for whatever reasons, and be replaced by a more respectable person, vice, someone like Strider/Aragorn, who starts out looking like an unlikely candidate but proves themselves to be the right person for the job. Ultimately, I think Arthur Weasley will end up MoM either for Book 7 or as a new appointment at the end of book 7. Heaven knows I've been wrong before! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jferer at yahoo.com Tue Jul 27 09:04:18 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:04:18 -0000 Subject: Why Lucius may actually end up the next Minister In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107846 Inge: "Try Lucius Malfoy?" Nellie:"I agree that Lucius Malfoy is not subtle and diplomatic enough to become the Minister of Magic under normal circumstances, but Voldemort might very well prefer to have an intimidating thug with aristocratic background and connections who wholeheartedly supports his creed and policies in this position." It's just semantics with me, maybe, but Lucius can't ever be the legitimate Minister, being a known traitor. He may sit in the chair as a conqueror's viceroy, but he'd never be more. "Nellie, who apologizes for making such a grim prediction, but feels that as long as Hogwarts is firmly in Dumbledore's hands, book 6 may still turn out to be warmer than book 5." One thing I think we can count on: Harry will be in a better mood now that he's accepted again. Facing death is simple compared to what he went through. The danger to his friends will be the hard part this time. Jim Ferer From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 27 09:25:04 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:25:04 -0000 Subject: Lily's Family - Mistakes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107847 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lifeavantgarde" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "huntergreen_3" > wrote: > > Stefanie: > > The only thing is this new information, if it is indeed true and > > not a typo, in the FAQ. It clearly says both: > > "Therefore Harry would be considered only 'half' wizard, because > > of his MOTHER'S GRANDPARENTS." > > > > To me this is HUGE. ...edited... > > HunterGreen: > > > > I'm thinking its just a typo. ... I'm going with Steve, I'll only > > believe it after its been up there a month. > Stefanie: > > Speculation entirely, but Lily and Petunia's parents' pride *could* > stem from one of their parents being a Muggle. Knowing that they > have a branch of non-magical line, and if Petunia were born first as > a squib, I'm sure it would seem to little Petunia that they were > overly proud of Lily's abilities. > > ...edited... > > I don't know... -- maybe only one of Harry's grandparents were > Muggle? Of course she could've just been using an example in quoting > this, but in conjunction with the possible typo...it certainly > makes one think a bit. > > Stefanie Asian_lovr2: I am convinced that it is a typo or miscommunication on JKR's part. Every book says directly or indirectly that Lily is a muggle-born witch. The statement has been made by Dumbledore, Harry, Voldemort, the narrator, and others. I don't think JKR would give that impression through 7 books only to go 'GOT YOU!' at the end. Oh, the end IS going to have a great big 'got you' but that's not going to be it. JKR still hasn't corrected her statement about Ron getting the 'Prefects taking points' wrong. It was Draco, Ernie, and by implication Hermione who said that Prefects can't take point, to which Ron simply agreed. I believe this section of 'Order of the Phoenix' has been corrected in recent editions. I think someone in one of the groups said they saw a UK edtion that now says that Draco can't take points from /other Prefects/. Can anyone confirm that? The 'James then Lily' which changed to 'Lily then James' seems to remain in the 'Lily then James' form and I think we can now take that as correct, although the mix up does still leave some small cloud of suspicion. My point is that despite the source, we need to be careful about what we take at JKR's website as gospel. Given that she has her mind of a million other things, if we see something that appears to be a mistake, then it probably is. Just my opinion. Steve/asian_lovr2 From rowansjet at yahoo.com Tue Jul 27 09:06:13 2004 From: rowansjet at yahoo.com (Andrew Stafford) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:06:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: When Fudge got the job (Was Re: JKR Speaks: Arthur Weasly will NOT be next Minister of Magic) Message-ID: <20040727090613.57849.qmail@web41509.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107848 ohneill_2001 wrote: > "I'm not sure if we have canon for how long Fudge has been > in power, but we know that Dumbledore has been at Hogwarts for at > least the past 50 years, and for some reason, I want to say Fudge > has been around for a shorter time than that. (I have a vague > memory that there is canon somewhere that refers to a different > minister during the first war, but I have no idea where in the five > books that is -- does anyone?)" I don't know where it is exactly but here it tells you roughly how long Fudge has been in power. Gof uk edition, pg 457: 'When Voldemort disappeared, it looked like only a matter of time until Crouch got the top job.' GoF uk edition, pg 459: 'Once the boy [Crouch Jnr] had died, people ... started asking how a nice young lad from a good family had gone so badly astray. The conclusion was that his father never cared much for him. So Cornelius Fudge got the top job...' "rowansjet" From pcaehill2 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 27 10:46:46 2004 From: pcaehill2 at sbcglobal.net (pcaehill2) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:46:46 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's hold on Petunia [was Re: Lily's Family] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107849 sad1199 wrote: [snip] > It's obvious she [Petunia] has knowledge of WW. Why > would some complete Muggle even show regard to a letter dropped > off by an unknown(?) wizard and do what it says? If she truly > hated Lily and did not know (personally) of WW she would have > sent Harry off to an orphanage. Dumbledore's got some sort of > hold on her. Pam replies: I was re-reading the howler scene in OoTP last night, and it seems clear (clearly implied, that is) that part of the "deal" made with Dumbledore involves protecting Dudley. At nearly every mention of dementors, Voldemort, etc., Petunia reaches for Dudley (grabs his shoulders, or says his name), and her fears seem to center around him. Which makes perfect sense, to me: Dudley is the most precious thing in her life. [Or maybe her myopic perfect 'idea' of Dudley; she certainly doesn't seem treasure him as a 'bullying git'. ] The "real deal" may have involved "blood protection" extending to Dudley as long as Harry could call their house "home." What is the danger to Dudley, besides his limited intellect/stunted empathy? Well, I don't think he's a hidden wizard, but I think as Lily's nephew, he could be regarded as part of the family that needs to be destroyed. So could Petunia, at that, but I truly believe she values Dudley's life more than her own, and, in fact, would be willing to die for him. I'm not clear on whether the DD "deal" was reached via the initial letter that was left with Harry on their doorstep, or some other, more private communication. Vernon seems oblivious (as usual), but is this because Petunia found the first missive and hid it from him, or because there was a later correspondence or even meeting between DD and P? Not sure. Pam From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue Jul 27 10:51:18 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:51:18 -0000 Subject: C.O.S. Clues ; WAS Re: JKR website update In-Reply-To: <029701c47376$72b75850$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107850 > Valky: > > But I wonder if now, armed with this new information, we can hold > > our concentration for longer til the end of the film and extract the answer from the Chamber scenes. > > > charme: > > There is one, when Harry is running thru the pipes, after the Basilisk has been blinded. It stuck me odd when I saw it the first time, and then I had to watch it again. I looked for that scene in the book and it's not there? It involves Harry running and a RAT runs in front of him, just to the side. > Wonder if Peter Pettigrew.....naaawwww, can't be right? Valky Replies: Can't it? Isn't one of JKRs other FAQ's Where has he been all this time. Ok so we are grasping at itsy bitsy slender canon straws for it, but hell, I already thought that Pettigrew was at Hogwarts all this time, anyway. I mean how often does Harry check to see whose in the Chamber of secrets on The Marauders Map. Oh yeah, it doesn't appear on the map does it? (Sarcastic drip and evil grin) MWPP never knew where it was. Rats in the plumbing anyone? From dzeytoun at cox.net Tue Jul 27 10:43:28 2004 From: dzeytoun at cox.net (dzeytoun) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:43:28 -0000 Subject: How should Harry deal with Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107851 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "huntergreen_3" wrote: > HunterGreen: > I'm only talking about from *Harry's* end. Even if Snape doesn't > change his behavior (which I doubt he will, he's too set in his > ways), it might help Harry deal with it better if he adopted a > different attitude. If he simply ignored Snape, it would make it > easier to not take his comments to heart. If he argues and gets > into a back and forth with Snape, that'll only make things worse. > (honestly, sometimes letting something go is the best way to > preserve your mental health). Look at Lupin, Snape may make his > little comments to him, but Lupin never really reacts or seems to > care. He takes Snape with a grain of salt, as he should be taken. Sigh. I'm afraid the time for this is long gone. The fact is that these two have come to *hate* one another. Whoever is most at fault (for my money it's undeniably Snape, but choose who you please), we're well past the "ignoring each other" stage. This might have been a good option at anytime before book five. Now emotions have reached such a nadir that I just don't see it as a possibility. Remember, we aren't just talking about sarcastic comments anymore. Harry feels that Snape is complicit in the death of the only parental figure Harry has ever known. You don't swallow that and go on. Dzeytoun From lycanthropiclady at hotmail.com Tue Jul 27 10:35:14 2004 From: lycanthropiclady at hotmail.com (lycanthropiclady) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:35:14 -0000 Subject: Minster before Fudge (was Re: JKR Speaks: Arthur Weasly will NOT be next Minister of Magic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107852 Cory wrote: > I have a vague memory that there is canon somewhere that refers to a > different minister during the first war, but I have no idea where in > the five books that is -- does anyone? The MfM before Fudge was called Millicent Bagnold. I believe it is said in OotP she was MfM during the first war. I always had the impression she died in that war and that Fudge applied after that. LL From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue Jul 27 11:34:52 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:34:52 -0000 Subject: C.O.S. Clues ; WAS Re: JKR website update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107853 > >>> Valky wrote: > > But I wonder if now, armed with this new information, we can hold our concentration for longer til the end of the film and extract the answer from the Chamber scenes. <<< > > > Bren now: > > Hiya Valky!! ;P > You know, reading your post reminded me of something I found mildly intriguing in the chamber scene in CoS movie. Remember when Harry is running away from Basilisk, and he runs into a barred circle hole end in the chamber? If Basilisk has been swimming around Hogwarts plumming, why is it blocked? > > So I was pondering... if there's an *entrance* to the chamber... > (are you thinking what I'm thinking...) is there an *exit* to the > chamber as well... an exit that leads to outside of Hogwarts... > perhaps to the chamber room in Malfoy Mansion... > Valky replies: Hey Bren! 8D You mean as in _how did Lucius get his hands on the Diary_ type entrance. hmmmmm that does kinda inspire some thoughts. I had a discussion about this last year with a member I rarely see here anymore. Its such an old discussion that I am actually reminiscing,... It was the first time I managed to sway a list member to consider an aspect of my personal character essay of Lucius that was entirely opposite to her own theory on the likewise aspect of his character...... well Pen never actually handed up her own opinion for good she merely conceded mine and even had some stuff ..... ooops waaaaay OT, sorry *blush* Anyways, the character was Lucius of course and the _discuss canon_ was the diary and how it came into Lucius possession. To cut a long story short, I believed that Lucius was the keeper of LV's possessions and many as sinister and grand as Toms own Diary, Other speculators were more ahderent to the notion that LV's treasure was most likely stowed in the Riddle house, which was Toms own, so therefore more apt to be the location. But that didn't really sit with me, for many reasons, most of all that I am sure Lucius' main objective in planting the diary at Hogwarts was a direct attempt on Harry's life. Which most didn't really agree with, but there you go. *shrug* So without going into the extensive reams of my opinions and theories on Lucius himself, I must say that I agree, Lucius the 'slick talking silver tongue' that he is, was able to engender the trust of Voldemort. In my own case, to be keeper (haha another keeper for book 7!) of his magical possessions. (I go on to say that he has a swelled head and thinks that he will rule the WW side by side with the victorious LV but we wont go into that now ;D) I doubt he trusted the *Chamber* to the Malfoys, but still I see how you have connected Lucius to this thread as significant, sorry if I rambled a bit. As for the Chamber having an exit, Bren, you have further inspired another muse for me. Recently, I have been contemplating whether LV may have been able to create himself an access route into Hogwarts through books 1 to 5. I supposed that, whilst Ginny was enchanted, Tom used her to cast a dissillusionment on one of the secret entrances into Hogwarts from Hogsmeade and vice versa. Specifically the one behind the mirror on the fourth floor. This is the one that mysteriously became blocked during the winter of book 2, the same winter Ginny was staggering around Hogwarts under Toms Possession!*. Now supposing you are right and the blocked tunnel leads somewhere. Lets say, perhaps that it is not another *exit* per se but also _ANOTHER ENTRANCE_ to the Chamber, from Hogsmeade through the 4th floor secret tunnel and _STRAIGHT INTO THE CHAMBER OF SECRETS_ Yes indeed Bren something _very much_ to think about. Always a Pleasure Best To You From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue Jul 27 11:40:30 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:40:30 -0000 Subject: "Alas", Yes It must be Lucius WAS Re: JKR Speaks: Minister O M not Arthur In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107854 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Inge" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mandy" > wrote: > >>JKR has updated her web site again and says Arthur will not be the > next Minister of Magic. >> > ...snip... > >>I'm > just not coming up with any others right now...any thoughts? > Cheers Mandy>> > > Inge: > Try Lucius Malfoy? Valky: Inge *must* have it. After all JKR does say "Alas, No." To Dear Mr Weasley, to me, meaning that our new minister will not be someone of whom HRH would approve. From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Jul 27 11:44:41 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:44:41 -0000 Subject: Snape's part in death of Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107855 > Potioncat: > This could be a fun, meaty thread to debate, but I do have one > major question. With all the errors we've made with Mark Evans and > the HBP: Is it your thought that JKR is showing us that Snape > delayed looking for Harry? > > Neri: > Do you mean that it wasn't her intension and she didn't do the math > of the timeline from everybody's point of view? Could be, but IMO > this fits well with the pattern of Snape's carelessness and > irresponsibility regarding Harry during the Occlumency lessons and > especially after he stopped the lessons. > Potioncat: First a disclaimer: I'm worse with numbers and time details than JKR is. One flaw I see in your timelines (both very good, but I snipped for space) is that some of the events overlap. The other is that we don't know how long the trip to London took. The train takes hours, but Harry is thinking that he is going faster than he ever has before. The battle between the DA and DEs does not seem to last very long, but I couldn't begin to guess how long it actually is. Then the Order shows up and it continues for a while. Then DD sends Harry to Hogwarts and Harry watches the dawn. How long is a night in Hogwarts in June? If we assume it only took the Order a short time to get to the MoM and find the battle (half an hour?) We could assume that was when Snape contacted them a second time. (That is, about 30 mins before they showed up.) Even if the fight in her office had made noise, who would have noticed or cared? I would think the castle was pretty noisy by this time. Students had been warned away from the area near her office. Most wouldn't care if something happened to her and might "overlook" the sound if they did hear it. Snape finds out Black is safe. He presumes Harry is with Umbridge. Harry once did detention with her from supper until midnight. When would Snape miss his students? If he spends as much time in the Slytherin common room, as McGonagall does in the Gryffindor common room, then he wouldn't know about his students until they worked themselves free and came for help. At that point (whenever that is) he finds out they left the castle. I still don't think he has any reason to think that Harry could get to the MoM. Or perhaps this is the point that he contacts the Order, because he finds out that Umbridge and Harry left a "long time" ago. He starts searching the Forest after he contacts the Order. But still, I ask, does anything in canon indicate that Snape was delaying in JKR's mind? If he was, then I would think it will come up in Book 6 or 7. But this reminds me of SS/PS. I once asked where Snape was while the Trio were working their way through the Tasks. Someone worked out an explanation. And, for the kids to be the heroes, they have to be able to pull things over on the adults. Potioncat From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Jul 27 11:56:22 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:56:22 -0000 Subject: half blood prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107856 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > > Neri: > Allow me to correct. Power(s) tranfered from Voldy are mentioned > EXACTLY twice in all the five books: once in CoS, and once in DD's > words in the end of OotP. Regarding the mind link, in canon it is > NEVER connected with the transferred powers. Not that I believe for > one second that there is no connection between these two things, but > in canon they are never connected. Parseltongue is mentioned EXACTLY > once outside of CoS: in GoF when Draco tells about it to Rita Skeeter > in order to blacken Harry's name. > > There wasn't any background rumble about the transferred powers. > There was a resounding silence. It is high time these mysterious > powers will make their appearence. > Kneasy: Mentioned? Who said anything about 'mentioned'? If you have to wait for JKR to explicitly mention something you might as well hand in your analysts badge and tear up your membership card for The League of Conspiracy Theorists. It's hints, allusions and possible connections; that's what you've got to ferret out - not marking time until JKR sees fit to draw a map covered in signposts. Second-guessing the author is the name of the game. Read between the lines, become like Scaramouche - a snapper-up of unconsidered trifles. Build molehills into mountains and vice versa. OK. CoS. We learn there has been a transfer of powers from Voldy to Harry. First thought (back when I first read the books in 2000) - "Aha! That's what this scar thing is all about! That's why JKR hints that it's significant." Next thought - not only is there a transfer but a link is being maintained, hence the pain/irritation whenever Voldy starts acting up. So strictly speaking pain from the scar is a manifestation of the transfer/link. If the transfer hadn't happened the scar wouldn't react, though this connection has only become evident in the later books. Possession (OoP), mind-reading (SS/PS), thought transfer (GoF -The Riddle House) or visions projected at a distance - all properties of the transfer/link. Thirdly - those trifles. Like Moody's magic eye following Harry everywhere at Grimmauld Place and his later comment that "...there's something funny about that Potter kid, we all know that." This from an Auror renowned for his ability to sniff out Dark Magic. The accessing of Snape's memories when he's supposed to be protecting his own and the hint in the OWL exams - Harry may develop/be developing a Legilimancy facility. His willingness to use an Unforgivable Curse. All grist for the mill. > > Neri: > But JKR just told us that there is no connection between them: > "The link I mentioned between books two and six does not, in fact, > relate to the 'Half-Blood Prince' (because there is no trace left of > the HBP storyline in 'Chamber'.) Rather, it relates to a discovery > Harry made in 'Chamber' that foreshadows something that he finds out > in 'Prince'." > > I warned you about my nitpicking. > Kneasy: So the link between the two books is totally unrelated to HBP the person. I'm dubious. It's difficult to find anything of significance in the books that isn't in some way apparently or conceivably connected to everything else, though the connection may be fragile, indirect and convoluted. Nitpick away. That's what LOON-aspirants are for. Keeps 'em out of mischief. Personally I'd much rather rummage around for hints and clues and make connections. Much more fun. Doesn't matter if I'm wrong; sometimes that's even more fun - 'cos it means I get to do it all over again. From silmariel at telefonica.net Mon Jul 26 12:02:11 2004 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (silmariel) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:02:11 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Most burning Snape question? In-Reply-To: <20040724132547.16545.qmail@web50103.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040724132547.16545.qmail@web50103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200407261402.11306.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 107857 Magda Grantwich: > But how about this one: > > "Ms Rowling, what two or three facts can you tell us about Severus > Snape that will NOT risk spoiling the plots of future books?" > > She'll probably say SOMETHING and hopefully she'll give you something > good. Who was kissing Florence? Carolina From drliss at comcast.net Tue Jul 27 12:17:47 2004 From: drliss at comcast.net (drliss at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:17:47 +0000 Subject: Lily's family Message-ID: <072720041217.4590.410647EB00022D2A000011EE22007481849C9C07049D0B@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 107858 HunterGreen: Because Harry is a HALF-blood, not a muggle-born. He has a pure-blood father, so he's not quite a 'mudblood' (as far I as understand it, the term is for muggle-born witches/wizards, and I suppose it could be extended to the child of two muggleborns or a muggleborn and a muggle, etc). He's no more a 'mudblood' than Tonks is. 'Half-blood' can be considered an insult as well, as Bellatrix uses it that way in the DoM after Harry calls Voldemort by his name. Voldemort, by the way, would probably see that disctinction as well, since HE is a half-blood, and refers to Harry's mother (in CoS) as a 'mudblood'. According to Ron in CoS, "Mudblood's a really foul name for someone who is Muggle-born - you know, non-magic parents.". But, I suppose, if Lily were the child of two muggleborns they might see fit to call her a mudblood, I just don't know if SHE would just accept that. Lissa: Poor JKR. Does anyone else ever wonder if she lurks on this list and then tears her hair out yelling "Give me a break, people! ARGH!" I agree that she's made a typo or something, and Lily's parents are Muggles. Heck- even James acknowledges it in the Pensieve. He says "I'd never call you a you-know-what" or something to that affect. He doesn't deny her parentage, rather he confirms it by saying that he'd never actually hurl the insult at her. Plus all the other stuff that's been cited... I'd guess that the Evans were Muggles. Liss [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Tue Jul 27 13:13:07 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:13:07 -0400 Subject: Lily and Magic outside of school (was Fudge/Transfer of Power/Lily's Family) Message-ID: <001001c473db$76e49360$7bc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 107859 Amey "This solves the mystery how Lily could easily do magic at home in vacation, if her family was magic." DuffyPoo now: I don't think so. I think, if she truly had done magic at home in vacation, and it wasn't just Petunia's ranting, then the rule must have been changed at some point between her time at Hogwarts and Harry's. In PS we have: '...notes were handed out to all students, warning them not to use magic over the holidays ('I always hope they'll forget to give us these,' said Fred Weasley sadly);...' Even the Weasley kids know they can't do magic out of school. In CoS we have: 'They [Harry, Ron, Hermione, Fred, George and Ginny] made the most of the last few hours in which they were allowed to do magic before the holidays.' Wizard kids again knowing they can't do magic after they get off the train. However, I'm still trying to figure out how Fred and George improved Percy's Head Boy badge to read 'Bighead Boy' without the use of magic. (PoA chapt 4) And I know Fred & George turned Ron's teddybear into a spider, but that must be some sort of 'pre-Hogwarts' type of magic that they are allowed to use. There must be some type of magic these kids can do or their parents would never know if they are wizards until the letter arrives. Nothing stops them making little explosions in their room, whatever they are doing to cause those. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From meltowne at yahoo.com Tue Jul 27 13:23:14 2004 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:23:14 -0000 Subject: Lily's Family In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107860 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "huntergreen_3" > HunterGreen: Because Harry is a HALF-blood, not a muggle-born. He has a pure-blood father, so he's not quite a 'mudblood' (as far I as understand it, the term is for muggle-born witches/wizards, and I suppose it could be extended to the child of two muggleborns or a muggleborn and a muggle, etc). He's no more a 'mudblood' than Tonks is. 'Half-blood' can be considered an insult as well, as Bellatrix uses it that way in the DoM after Harry calls Voldemort by his name. Voldemort, by the way, would probably see that disctinction as well, since HE is a half-blood, and refers to Harry's mother (in CoS) as a 'mudblood'. According to Ron in CoS, "Mudblood's a really foul name for someone who is Muggle-born - you know, non-magic parents.". But, I suppose, if Lily were the child of two muggleborns they might see fit to call her a mudblood, I just don't know if SHE would just accept that. I take a mud-blood as being more than half muggle - either both parents are mugles, or one a muggle and the other maybe muggle-born Half-blood would be born of a full-blood wizard and a muggle (or possible both parents muggle-born, but I'm not sure on that one) Full-blood would be all parents grandparents and great-grandparents (3 generations back) are wizards/witches. Thus lily is called a mud-blood by Snape - either both parents are muggles, or perhaps one is a muggle and one muggle-born. At least 3 of her 4 grandparents are muggles. Because at least one of Lily's grandparents was a muggle, Harry is not full-blood. This leaves open the option that one of Lily's grandparents was in fact a wizard or witch - making one of her parents half-blood. If Lily and James were involved enough in the original OOP to have defied LV 3 times, it suggests that their families may have been involved at least once before. What other prophesies exist about their family? I suspect Lily's magical grandparent went into hiding for some reason, in the muggle world. Perhaps Lily's mother or father was a squib (born into the muggle world, so treated as a full-muggle by the wizarding world), but hoped to have a magical child to bring the family back into the wizarding world. I think the HBP will turn out to be Harry's grandparent, forced into hiding by Grindewald. On a side note, it seems interesting that both Lily and Hermione appear to the be top of their respective classes, and both were muggle-born. That must irk some of the pure-bloods! From meltowne at yahoo.com Tue Jul 27 13:30:09 2004 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:30:09 -0000 Subject: Lily and Magic outside of school (was Fudge/Transfer of Power/Lily's Family) In-Reply-To: <001001c473db$76e49360$7bc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107861 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cathy Drolet" wrote: > Amey > > "This solves the mystery how Lily could easily do magic at home in vacation, if her family was magic." > > > DuffyPoo now: > > I don't think so. I think, if she truly had done magic at home in vacation, and it wasn't just Petunia's ranting, then the rule must have been changed at some point between her time at Hogwarts and Harry's. It's in there - Dumbledore makes a comment that he didn't agree with the underage restrictions, I think in a conversation with Fudge. This would suggest that Fudge was involved in that decision, and that it happened after he become minister - after LV fell, and thus after Lily left Hogwarts. From allisonotto at gmail.com Tue Jul 27 13:32:40 2004 From: allisonotto at gmail.com (allison_m_otto) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:32:40 -0000 Subject: McNair connection In-Reply-To: <1e6.25f4acb8.2e36d0b5@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107862 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, MadameSSnape at a... wrote: > In a message dated 7/26/2004 10:54:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > lisa at f... writes: > The author mentions something > about the fact that the Abe Lincoln assassination conspirators > were executed by hanging at Mt. McNair. > > ================= > Sherrie here: > > > The land where the prison once stood is now occupied by the Supreme Court > building. I can't find any reference to the land ever being referred to as "Mt. > McNair". Washington is a low-lying city - much of it is built on swampland, > which was cheap - there aren't many "mounts" in the area. > > Allison: The conspirators were in fact hanged at *Fort* McNair (Ft.) - perhaps that was a typo? At any rate, no, there is no Mt. McNair here in DC - the closest thing we've got is the Hill. Interesting connection, though. Especially since there is some controversy over whether all of those hanged were really guilty, particularly Mary Surratt. There was (understandably) a rage at the time to have the conspirators caught and executed. Perhaps JKR *is* drawing a comparison with Buckbeak, who is condemned as part of a campaign to discredit Hagrid and Dumbledore. Or maybe it's a Mark Evans.:) From mnaperrone at aol.com Tue Jul 27 13:34:53 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:34:53 -0000 Subject: Snape questions for JK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107863 BM wrote: > >>And the killer question.....<< > > > > 4) Is there any truth in the rumours that Snape loved Lily? > > As someone else pointed out, Snape wouldn't have to have loved Lily > in the romantic sense; so, to make sure JKR doesn't assume what > you're asking, you might phrase your question something like this: > > "Did Snape, whether romantically or platonically, love or care about > Lily Evans in any way?" > > > Again, great questions. It's up to you to leave them or re-word them > as you wish. Here's keeping our fingers crossed that you actually > get to ask them. > > Best of luck to you, and have a GREAT time! > > BM Ally: Actually, I think JKR has already refused to answer the question of whether Snape was in love with Lily - something that poured gasoline on the flames of all those people theorizing this (it does look a bit suspicious). I don't have the exact quote, but an interviewer asked her whether Snape was in love with Lily and her final answer was "I can't tell you." From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Jul 27 13:37:59 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:37:59 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's hold on Petunia [was Re: Lily's Family] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107864 > Pam replies: > The "real deal" may have involved "blood protection" extending to > Dudley as long as Harry could call their house "home." What is the > danger to Dudley, besides his limited intellect/stunted empathy? > Well, I don't think he's a hidden wizard, but I think as Lily's > nephew, he could be regarded as part of the family that needs to be > destroyed. So could Petunia, at that, but I truly believe she > values Dudley's life more than her own, and, in fact, would be > willing to die for him. Jen: I don't think Dudley is a wizard either, but I'm starting to believe there's something important about Lily's & Petunia's origins that puts Dudley at risk from Voldemort. Somewhere in their past they have a magical heritage, a powerful one--I'd bet money on it! And perhaps the family way-back-when chose to denounce the power, or it was taken from them somehow, and then Lily was born. I like your idea, Pam, that Petunia exchanged taking Harry in for protection of Dudley, that seems the sort of bargain she would strike. But it couldn't be the same blood protection Harry has, since Petunia didn't sacrifice herself for Dudley. I guess Dumbeldore's charm could have somehow extended to Dudley, though? From ms-tamany at rcn.com Tue Jul 27 13:45:03 2004 From: ms-tamany at rcn.com (Tammy Rizzo) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:45:03 -0400 Subject: My take on Lily's grandparents Message-ID: <41065C5F.2030401@rcn.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107865 It's rather obvious to me what Jo means by that -- if Lily's parents were both Muggles, then all four of her grandparents were also Muggles, and the pure-blood fanatics can blame Lily's grandparents with impunity, just for being alive and spawning more Muggles. Lily probably has Muggles in her family all the way back as far as it can be figured, so it's all *their* fault, anyway. Dratted Muggles, popping up everywhere, polluting the Wizarding World when they happen to produce a witch or wizard, as if being able to do magic makes them 'special' . . . as if they were the *EQUALS* to those PURE-bloods, with no Muggles anywhere in their family tree (because the Muggles and Muggleborns have been burnt off the rosters anyway, right?). Okay, facetiousness aside, my first sentence stands anyway. Lily's grandparents, having produced Muggles, must also have been Muggles. Even if Jo meant to write either "Lily's parents" or "Harry's grandparents" and just managed to elide the two phrases instead, it still stands to reason that, in the warped worldview held by pure-blood fanatics like the Malfoys, Lily having Muggle grandparents is just as bad as her having Muggle parents. Does this make sense, or have I left myself wide open to all sorts of retorts, here? -- *** Tammy Rizzo ms-tamany at rcn.com From mnaperrone at aol.com Tue Jul 27 13:46:12 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:46:12 -0000 Subject: How should Harry deal with Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107866 > > HunterGreen: > > I'm only talking about from *Harry's* end. Even if Snape doesn't > > change his behavior (which I doubt he will, he's too set in his > > ways), it might help Harry deal with it better if he adopted a > > different attitude. If he simply ignored Snape, it would make it > > easier to not take his comments to heart. If he argues and gets > > into a back and forth with Snape, that'll only make things worse. > > (honestly, sometimes letting something go is the best way to > > preserve your mental health). Look at Lupin, Snape may make his > > little comments to him, but Lupin never really reacts or seems to > > care. He takes Snape with a grain of salt, as he should be taken. > Dzeytoun: > Sigh. I'm afraid the time for this is long gone. The fact is that > these two have come to *hate* one another. Whoever is most at fault > (for my money it's undeniably Snape, but choose who you please), > we're well past the "ignoring each other" stage. This might have > been a good option at anytime before book five. Now emotions have > reached such a nadir that I just don't see it as a possibility. > Remember, we aren't just talking about sarcastic comments anymore. > Harry feels that Snape is complicit in the death of the only parental > figure Harry has ever known. You don't swallow that and go on. Ally: I don't know. Harry is the hero and I think he's on course to be more emotionally mature and developed than Snape if for no other reason than his name is on the book titles. If the relationship changes for the better, it will be because Harry changes his mind about or his approach to Snape. I keep thinking we'll see more of Lily's personality in Harry as he gets older. I know he was very angry at Snape at the end of OOTP, but I wouldn't be surprised if something else happens - like the pensieve and seeing into Snape's head during occlumency - that gives Harry a glimpse of Snape that softens his perspective somewhat. Or maybe just with the passage of time he'll realize that his anger at Snape was really just his own misdirected sense of guilt. Snape is emotionally stunted and JKR obviously likes him that way. I'd like to see him evolve somewhat, but that's not a priority for her. Aside from Harry, JKR seems content to let most her characters remain as "types" rather than true "Characters" IMO - even Ron and Hermione are basically cliches with good lines. But she reserves a special place for Harry, so you can bet that if she plans for he and Snape to come to any kind of working agreement, it will be Harry who instigates it. Ally who is feeling a little cynical today From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 27 13:50:13 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:50:13 -0000 Subject: How should Harry deal with Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107867 HunterGreen: > > I'm only talking about from *Harry's* end. Even if Snape doesn't > > change his behavior (which I doubt he will, he's too set in his > > ways), it might help Harry deal with it better if he adopted a > > different attitude. If he simply ignored Snape, it would make it > > easier to not take his comments to heart. If he argues and gets > > into a back and forth with Snape, that'll only make things worse. > > (honestly, sometimes letting something go is the best way to > > preserve your mental health). Look at Lupin, Snape may make his > > little comments to him, but Lupin never really reacts or seems to > > care. He takes Snape with a grain of salt, as he should be taken. Dzeytoun responded: > Sigh. I'm afraid the time for this is long gone. The fact is that > these two have come to *hate* one another. Whoever is most at > fault (for my money it's undeniably Snape, but choose who you > please), we're well past the "ignoring each other" stage. This > might have been a good option at anytime before book five. Now > emotions have reached such a nadir that I just don't see it as a > possibility. > Remember, we aren't just talking about sarcastic comments anymore. > Harry feels that Snape is complicit in the death of the only > parental figure Harry has ever known. You don't swallow that and > go on. SSSusan: If I may be so rude as to direct you to my own post, I responded to this issue of its being too late in post 107756. I believe that a person *can* swallow that and go on *if* that person senses an absolute NEED to do so, which is what I think Harry (eventually) will realize is the case if Voldy is to be stopped. This is what I wrote in 107756: >>I don't see why [the time has] come & gone, though. You're quite right that it might have been more easily accomplished if DD, Lupin or Sirius had counseled Harry on this, but I don't think all possibility is gone. In fact, and maybe surprisingly, I think that icy hatred might work *very well* to get Harry to the point where he can do this. Maybe I'm weird, but I think when he's hopping mad, filled with fiery indignation and rage, he CAN'T see reason. When a person feels *icy* hatred, it's somehow calmer, leaving room for a little rationality to enter in. I mean, it's "hotheads" who make rash, angry decisions, right?<< Siriusly Snapey Susan From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Tue Jul 27 13:39:31 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:39:31 -0400 Subject: Lily's Family - Mistakes Message-ID: <002601c473df$27033780$1990d1d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 107868 Steve said: "JKR still hasn't corrected her statement about Ron getting the 'Prefects taking points' wrong. It was Draco, Ernie, and by implication Hermione who said that Prefects can't take point, to which Ron simply agreed. I believe this section of 'Order of the Phoenix' has been corrected in recent editions. I think someone in one of the groups said they saw a UK edtion that now says that Draco can't take points from /other Prefects/. Can anyone confirm that?" DuffyPoo now: >From an old e-mail I sent, it was posted as follows: nieky replied: > First, I am so sorry, I meant page 551 of OOTP, the new 2004 > Bloomsbury pocket edition, they probably made a correction: > "You can't take points from fellow prefects, Malfoy, said Ernie at > once. 'I know prefects can't dock points from each other', sneered > Malfoy. Crabbe and Goyle sniggered. 'But members of the > Inquisitorial Squad-'" So it has been changed in print, but not yet on the website. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Jul 27 14:07:35 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 14:07:35 -0000 Subject: Lily's Family - Mistakes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107869 > Asian_lovr2: > > I am convinced that it is a typo or miscommunication on JKR's part. > Every book says directly or indirectly that Lily is a muggle-born > witch. The statement has been made by Dumbledore, Harry, Voldemort, > the narrator, and others. I don't think JKR would give that impression > through 7 books only to go 'GOT YOU!' at the end. > My point is that despite the source, we need to be careful about what > we take at JKR's website as gospel. Given that she has her mind of a > million other things, if we see something that appears to be a > mistake, then it probably is. Jen: The example JKR uses to point out why Harry is a half-blood contradicts her thoughts on Lily's "grandparents." Her example is that a person with a Jewish grandparent was considerd to have 'polluted' blood by the Nazis. By extension, she's saying Harry is considered by the DE's to have 'polluted' blood because his grandparents were Muggles, i.e. Lily's parents. I think it's a mistake, but then I'm getting a little cynical about her website From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 27 14:13:41 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 14:13:41 -0000 Subject: Lily and Magic outside of school (was Fudge/Transfer of Power/Lily's Family) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107870 Amey: > > > "This solves the mystery how Lily could easily do magic at home > > > in vacation, if her family was magic." DuffyPoo now: > > I don't think so. I think, if she truly had done magic at home > > in vacation, and it wasn't just Petunia's ranting, then the rule > > must have been changed at some point between her time at Hogwarts > > and Harry's. Meltowne: > It's in there - Dumbledore makes a comment that he didn't agree > with the underage restrictions, I think in a conversation with > Fudge. This would suggest that Fudge was involved in that > decision, and that it happened after he become minister - after LV > fell, and thus after Lily left Hogwarts. SSSusan: Ooooh, that's interesting. Meltowne (or another HPfGUer), could you provide the reference for this? I'd love to go read it, but it's not ringing a bell. Siriusly Snapey Susan From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Jul 27 14:37:02 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 14:37:02 -0000 Subject: Lily and Magic outside of school (was Fudge/Transfer of Power/Lily's Family) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107871 > DuffyPoo now: > > > I don't think so. I think, if she truly had done magic at home > > > in vacation, and it wasn't just Petunia's ranting, then the rule > > > must have been changed at some point between her time at Hogwarts > > > and Harry's. > Meltowne: > > It's in there - Dumbledore makes a comment that he didn't agree > > with the underage restrictions, I think in a conversation with > > Fudge. This would suggest that Fudge was involved in that > > decision, and that it happened after he become minister - after LV > > fell, and thus after Lily left Hogwarts. > > SSSusan: > Ooooh, that's interesting. Meltowne (or another HPfGUer), could you > provide the reference for this? I'd love to go read it, but it's not > ringing a bell. Jen: I don't know about Meltowne's quote, but at the hearing in OOTP, Fudge says the Decree for the Reasonable Restrcition of Underage Wizardry was from 1875 (chap. 8, p. 140 US). This is consistent with COS which says the same thing, in the letter Harry got after Dobby's Hover Charm. They keep referring to the Statute of Secrecy too, but don't give a date. Of course, Dumbledore would have been alive in 1875, so he may have opposed it back then! From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Jul 27 14:42:03 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 14:42:03 -0000 Subject: How should Harry deal with Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107872 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dzeytoun" wrote: > Sigh. I'm afraid the time for this is long gone. The fact is that > these two have come to *hate* one another. Whoever is most at fault (for my money it's undeniably Snape, but choose who you please), we're well past the "ignoring each other" stage. This might have been a good option at anytime before book five. Now emotions have reached such a nadir that I just don't see it as a possibility. > Remember, we aren't just talking about sarcastic comments anymore. Harry feels that Snape is complicit in the death of the only parental figure Harry has ever known. You don't swallow that and go on.< I'm not expecting Harry to swallow it. But JKR has said that Harry is going to learn in Book Six that he needs to control his anger. I expect as the grieving process continues, Harry will start to accept his loss and not need to blame anyone so much. That will make his own part in losing Sirius easier to accept. He'd have to grow up a lot, but isn't that what we're expecting him to do? Meanwhile, if his icy anger helps him to lose some of his fear of Snape, it might actually help Harry see that he's been playing the "Let's humiliate Harry" game as much as Snape has. He's never going to win that one. Everyone has things they feel ashamed of--and Snape is never going to tire of pointing them out as long as Harry reacts in a way that validates Snape's opinion of James. That's really what Snape wants, IMO. He wants to hear James say, "Yes, I was a berk." Second best is to chivvy Harry into behavior that Snape sees as arrogant, because that too validates Snape's feelings toward James. What Harry needs to do is change the way he reacts to the bullying, not because Snape is making him, but because Harry has that power and that choice. He, unlike Snape, is not in thrall to compulsive behavior. Harry can't change the rules: as long as Snape is a teacher and Harry a student, Snape will have ways to abuse his power, and as long as Harry is human, Snape will be able to find some weakness to exploit. But Harry can change the game. Instead of playing, "Every time Snape humiliates me, he wins," he can change the game to "Every time I keep my temper and don't mouth off, I win." Then insults won't be a way of keeping score, he won't have to take them seriously and he can concentrate on visualizing that vulture hat every time Snape starts in on him. Who knows, Harry might eventually be able to say, quietly, "Yeah, dad and Sirius were berks, sometimes," and Snape would be so astounded he'd melt right through the floor like one of Neville's cauldrons. Pippin From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Tue Jul 27 14:49:52 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 14:49:52 -0000 Subject: "Alas", how about Umbridge as new MoM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107873 >>> Inge: > > Try Lucius Malfoy? > >>> Valky: > Inge *must* have it. After all JKR does say "Alas, No." To Dear Mr > Weasley, to me, meaning that our new minister will not be someone of whom HRH would approve. <<< Bren now: But I think Lucius has slim chance of being a Ministry official now that his lame 'I was Imperio-ed' excuse has proven to be false. But yes, JKR's 'Alas' comment does take away chances that the new MoM will be someone more opt for the job than Fudge. How about Umbridge? She's already the Senior Secretary of Ministry (or some sort), won't be too much promotion for her! I shudder to think that she will blood-quill Ministry officials who oppose her! *shudder* Brenda From ameliagoldfeesh at yahoo.com Tue Jul 27 15:26:41 2004 From: ameliagoldfeesh at yahoo.com (A. Delavan) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:26:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR Speaks: Arthur Weasly will NOT be next Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040727152641.98564.qmail@web21108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107874 --- ohneill_2001 wrote: I'm not sure if we have canon for how > long Fudge has been > in power, but we know that Dumbledore has been at > Hogwarts for at > least the past 50 years, and for some reason, I want > to say Fudge has > been around for a shorter time than that. (I have a > vague memory > that there is canon somewhere that refers to a > different minister > during the first war, but I have no idea where in > the five books that > is -- does anyone?) A Goldfeesh says: According to the Lexicon, Millicent Bagnold was the previous minister until she retired in 1990. Since then Fudge has been in power from 1990 onward. A. Goldfeesh (who knows the Bagnold info is in the 1st 1/3 of OOP somewhere as she's just started re-reading it, but can't find where--perhaps JKR's fabled 8th book will be an index?) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Tue Jul 27 16:16:03 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 16:16:03 -0000 Subject: Snape's part in death of Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107875 > Potioncat: > One flaw I see in your timelines (both very good, but I snipped for > space) is that some of the events overlap. Neri: No overlap that I can see. The terms that appear to be overlapping are with opposite signs. Just draw on paper three parallel timelines (Harry's, Snape's and the Order members') and you'll see it immediately. > The other is that we > don't know how long the trip to London took. The train takes hours, > but Harry is thinking that he is going faster than he ever has > before. > Neri: It should be several hundred miles from Scotland to London. If they did it in only 2 hrs it would still be much faster than Harry ever flew before (knight bus' quantum leaps notwithstanding). > The battle between the DA and DEs does not seem to last very long, > but I couldn't begin to guess how long it actually is. Then the > Order shows up and it continues for a while. Then DD sends Harry to > Hogwarts and Harry watches the dawn. How long is a night in Hogwarts > in June? > Neri: My guess would be around 6 hrs. Maybe only 5 from last twilight to first light of dawn. Events from the take-off-from-the-forest until Harry's-back-to-DD-office should add up to this amount. > > Even if the fight in her office had made noise, who would have > noticed or cared? I would think the castle was pretty noisy by this > time. Students had been warned away from the area near her office. > Most wouldn't care if something happened to her and might "overlook" > the sound if they did hear it. > > Snape finds out Black is safe. He presumes Harry is with Umbridge. > Harry once did detention with her from supper until midnight. When > would Snape miss his students? If he spends as much time in the > Slytherin common room, as McGonagall does in the Gryffindor common > room, then he wouldn't know about his students until they worked > themselves free and came for help. > Neri: Potioncat, you don't have an argument with me, you have an argument with Pippin: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/107781 Either it is the on-top-of-it-all, the-last-defender-of-Hogwarts Snape, or it is sits-in-his-office-and-doesn't-know-bout-nothing Snape. You can't have it both ways. > At that point (whenever that is) he finds out they left the castle. > I still don't think he has any reason to think that Harry could get > to the MoM. Or perhaps this is the point that he contacts the > Order, because he finds out that Umbridge and Harry left a "long > time" ago. He starts searching the Forest after he contacts the > Order. > Neri: The problem starts when Snape contacts the Order the first time. He already knows that Harry believes in Sirius being hostage at the DoM enough to break into Umbridge's office. At this point, is it possible for Snape not to suspect that Harry had a mind contact with the Dark Lord? Snape already knows about three such cases, two of them that he personally saw in Harry's mind. Yet he tells HQ nothing about it. He only inquires if Sirius is there. Then he either doesn't bother to check about Harry's situation, or he finds out that Harry went to the most dangerous place around, and instead of notifying HQ immediately he waits several (critical) hours into the night doing absolutely nothing. Was he delaying on purpose? I personally don't believe he was. Was he acting responsibly? You decide. > But still, I ask, does anything in canon indicate that Snape was > delaying in JKR's mind? If he was, then I would think it will come > up in Book 6 or 7. But this reminds me of SS/PS. I once asked > where Snape was while the Trio were working their way through the > Tasks. Someone worked out an explanation. And, for the kids to be > the heroes, they have to be able to pull things over on the adults. Neri: In SS/PS there wasn't any discussion in the book about what Snape was doing during the time and how did it affect the outcome. There is definitely a discussion about it in OotP. JKR's mind? There is perhaps not much indication that Snape was delaying in JKR's mind. OTOH there is also not much indication that, in JKR's mind, Snape is a responsible man who gives a fig about what happens to the blasted Potter, or to any Gryffindor. On the face of it, Snape appears throughout canon as a man full of hate, who is governed by his emotions rather than by his responsibilities. Now, if the Snape fans claim this is all Harry's limited and biased point-of- view, and want to pick canon inside out to prove that Snape is actually a rational and responsible man, well that's OK by me. It's actually a lot of fun. Please explain Snape's actions and timing in the above case. Neri From greatelderone at yahoo.com Tue Jul 27 16:20:40 2004 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 16:20:40 -0000 Subject: "Alas", how about Umbridge as new MoM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107876 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brenda M." wrote: > But I think Lucius has slim chance of being a Ministry official now > that his lame 'I was Imperio-ed' excuse has proven to be false. But > yes, GEO: Yes, but I'm sure a large generous donation to the MoM and its employees from the Malfoy estate would remedy that and also help Lucius get out of Azkaban with a clean record. > JKR's 'Alas' comment does take away chances that the new MoM > will be someone more opt for the job than Fudge. > > How about Umbridge? She's already the Senior Secretary of Ministry > (or some sort), won't be too much promotion for her! I shudder to > think that she will blood-quill Ministry officials who oppose her! > *shudder* GEO: Umbridge has been pretty much discredited now after all I think she's one thats going to take the fall for the whole incident at Hogwarts and the Dementors being sent to Harry. From melaniertay at yahoo.com Tue Jul 27 11:50:13 2004 From: melaniertay at yahoo.com (Mel) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:50:13 -0000 Subject: Balance of Power in the Wizarding World In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107877 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > samnanya wrote: > > With the death of Sirius, I feel that there was a shift of power > > to the dark wizards which would be very dramatic if DD were to > > fall. Sirius was by all accounts a very powerful wizard for the > > Order, second only to Dumbledore. It's impossible to know who is 2nd to Dumbledore really, it could just as likely by Minerva. However, I'm going to give Sirius a shot. Sirius: Is an animagus, survived 12 years in Azkaban as well as escaped, was described as the cleverest at Hogwarts during his time. There's no doubting he's powerful. We have no Cannon making him 2nd to Dumbledore. Snape: Potions Master and Occlumency expert. He also knew more dark curses when he started Hogwarts than anyone else. We have no cannon listing him as Dumbledore's "right hand" man. I'm not sure. Although, the fact that people think he was bullied by Sirius implies that Sirius was probably more powerful and clever than Snape in school (as he seemed to get the upper hand). I'm not convinced that Snape didn't bully the Marauders back equally, making him just as devious and capable. Mel From pennygbrooks at yahoo.com Tue Jul 27 13:54:49 2004 From: pennygbrooks at yahoo.com (Penny Brooks) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:54:49 -0000 Subject: "Alas", Yes It must be Lucius WAS Re: JKR Speaks: Minister O M not Arthur In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107878 Mandy: > > >>JKR has updated her web site again and says Arthur will not be the > > next Minister of Magic. >> > > >>I'm just not coming up with any others right now...any thoughts? > > Inge: > > Try Lucius Malfoy? > > Valky: > Inge *must* have it. After all JKR does say "Alas, No." To Dear Mr > Weasley, to me, meaning that our new minister will not be someone of > whom HRH would approve. But wait...how can Lucius Malfoy be MoM when he was just caught at the end of OotP as a Death Eater, attacking kids and aurors at the Ministry on Voldemort's behalf? I can't imagine any sizeable number of the wizarding community going for this, after the info hit the papers and all. Unless a huge memory charm is cast on the wizarding world, I can't see how this would be allowed. I'm thinking the new MoM is someone else, but still someone 'negative'...Percy is an interesting choice, but I doubt him as well. I'm thinking it's someone new, like Umbridge was when we started OotP. Penny Bee From jmay_71 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 27 14:46:26 2004 From: jmay_71 at yahoo.com (jmay_71) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 14:46:26 -0000 Subject: Wizard Genetics (Was Re: Lily's Family) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107879 Stefanie: "Therefore Harry would be considered only 'half' wizard, because of his MOTHER'S GRANDPARENTS." To me this is HUGE. Steve: > Until the statement has remained unchallenged on her website for > 30 days, I'm not considering it a fact. Personally, I think she > actually meant to say either 'his mother's PARENTS' or Harry's > grandparents. > > dcgmck: > > OK. Caution duly noted... But... If, in fact, JKR actually > titillated us intentionally instead of accidentally (and not just out of the excitement of her recently announced pregnancy), why do I have no recollection of anyone ever calling Harry a 'mudblood'? Malfoy exhibits no reticence in using the term on everyone else of evident Muggle heritage, so why stop with Harry, whom he so clearly loathes and envies? jmay: I may be a bit off topic here, but I am gonna go out on a limb and guess that whether or not JKR made a mistake with Lily's parents or grandparents doesn't really matter. The big point she is trying to make is that classification by blood is ridiculous. She shows this by comparing the DEs to the Nazis. The complete and total irony being both groups are/were following a leader who's genetic background included that which they hate. My opinion of wizarding ability is that it is a sort of physical trait passed down thru your DNA. If you were born to non-magical parents (Hermione) and you are magical, somewhere in the past a wizard was part of the family. The same is probably true of squibs, just in reverse (non-magical in the your genetic past). There is even some canon in COS which circumstancially supports this. With regard to "mudbloods", someone mentions "If we hadn't married muggles we would have died out." And when the gang was trying to figure out who the Heir of Slytherin was, Hermione points out to Harry that he could be the heir because Slytherin lived 1000 years ago. Well, in 1000 years of wizards marrying non-magic folk, are we really that suprised that non-magic parents are producing magical children? Or that squibs result from two magical parents? For JKR to show Tom Riddle being Slytherin's heir and all the good that's caused (sarcasm), I would be really suprised after all JKR writes about our choices being most important, to turn around and say, oh and Harry's an heir too and thats really important to defeating Voldemort. To add one final off topic thought. I have this current theory that Tom Riddle became the Heir of Slytherin through his father and grandfather. My quick reasons are the following: 1)I know Tom said it was thru his mother, but he is also a known liar. 2)Tom's mother named him after his father and grandfather after being abandoned. Seems an odd thing to do, unless she knew this and she was a Slytherin fan maybe? 3)The description of the Riddles as being elitist snobs reminds me alot of the pureblood family behavior shown by the Malfoys and Mrs. Black. Not that I think they inherited this trait! Just that JKR has in her literary skill chosen to display them in a similar manner as a clue for us to find. 4)It puts another and maybe final nail in the "pureblood is better" coffin. I also just think it would be awesome for the DEs to find this juicy bit out. Wonder how they would react? Feel free to pick away... jmay From maritajan at yahoo.com Tue Jul 27 15:04:21 2004 From: maritajan at yahoo.com (Marita Jan) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:04:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] "Alas", how about Umbridge as new MoM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040727150421.49137.qmail@web12106.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107880 --- "Brenda M." wrote: > But I think Lucius has slim chance of being a Ministry official now > that his lame 'I was Imperio-ed' excuse has proven to be false. But > yes, JKR's 'Alas' comment does take away chances that the new MoM > will be someone more opt for the job than Fudge. > > How about Umbridge? She's already the Senior Secretary of Ministry > (or some sort), won't be too much promotion for her! I shudder to > think that she will blood-quill Ministry officials who oppose her! > *shudder* The problem I have with Umbridge is her physical and mental state at the end of Phoenix. Sorry, no book quotes here, but she lay in bed in the hospital wing pretty much not saying anything to anyone and panicked whenever she heard Ron faking the horses clip clop with his tongue. Sounds to me like someone who needs a long vacation, not a promotion. Not to mention, there was no way she wasn't thoroughly discredited by her actions at Hogwarts. She admitted to having sic'd the Dementors on Harry, she came 'this close' to using the CRUCIO curse -- I'll have a hard time understanding why if she doesn't do at least a short stretch in Azkaban at some point in the near future. I'm not surprised Arthur won't be Minister, he doesn't seem to be the type to play -- or even WANT to play -- the political game. JKR's "alas" scares me a little. It gives me a bad feeling about Mr. W's continued health. MJ ===== -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Need a real estate professional? Visit my site at www.maritabush.com With Marita, great service comes first.....and lasts! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From stargaz77 at aol.com Tue Jul 27 16:15:00 2004 From: stargaz77 at aol.com (celestina707) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 16:15:00 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's hold on Petunia [was Re: Lily's Family] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107881 Pam: > The "real deal" may have involved "blood protection" extending to > Dudley as long as Harry could call their house "home." What is the > danger to Dudley, besides his limited intellect/stunted empathy? > Well, I don't think he's a hidden wizard, but I think as Lily's > nephew, he could be regarded as part of the family that needs to be > destroyed. So could Petunia, at that, but I truly believe she > values Dudley's life more than her own, and, in fact, would be > willing to die for him. > > I'm not clear on whether the DD "deal" was reached via the initial > letter that was left with Harry on their doorstep, or some other, > more private communication. Vernon seems oblivious (as usual), but > is this because Petunia found the first missive and hid it from him, > or because there was a later correspondence or even meeting between > DD and P? Not sure. Yes, Pam, I wonder that myself. We know it took almost a day after Lily and James died begore Hagrid delivered Harry to the Dursleys. There is so much that could have happened in this time frame, when exactly was this arrangement made with Petunia? All we know is baby Harry was left at the Dursley front door with a letter. Whatever communications between Petunia and DD took place, we aren't aware of yet, but of course there must have been communication. With Petunia despising her sisters magical abilities, it would be just like Petunia and Vernon to just deliver Harry to an orphanage. Dumbledore must have made it very clear to her they must keep Harry under their roof. As we have seen no compasion out of either Petunia or Vernon towards Harry(except the scene when Petunia got the Howler from DD and realized they would be sentancing Harry to death if he left their home)I do wonder what deal was struck. I am not so sure if magical protection was offered to protect Dudley and Petunia, perhaps only while Harry is staying at the Dursley household.But I am holding on to my theory that its not Lily's blood that is important in this story, only James and Harry's, and therefore protection while Harry was away from the Dursley household is moot since Harry isn't there. Celestina From hpfgu_elves at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 27 16:47:18 2004 From: hpfgu_elves at yahoo.co.uk (hpfgu_elves) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 16:47:18 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Notice of moved thread Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107882 Esteemed List-Muggles: Please note that on the thread "C.O.S. Clues ; WAS Re: JKR website update," some posts used examples from the movie as the basis for speculation (the rat in the sewer). These posts have been moved to our sister site, HPfGU-Movie. If you want to continue discussing the subject over there, please do so, as it was an interesting idea. Cheers! --HPfGU List Admin Team From debroy at gmail.com Tue Jul 27 16:29:45 2004 From: debroy at gmail.com (hplurker) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 16:29:45 -0000 Subject: When Fudge got the job (Was Re: JKR Speaks: Arthur Weasly will NOT be next Minister of Magic) In-Reply-To: <20040727090613.57849.qmail@web41509.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107883 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Andrew Stafford wrote: > > I don't know where it is exactly but here it tells you roughly how > long Fudge has been in power. > > Gof uk edition, pg 457: 'When Voldemort disappeared, it looked like > only a matter of time until Crouch got the top job.' > > GoF uk edition, pg 459: 'Once the boy [Crouch Jnr] had died, > people ... started asking how a nice young lad from a good family > had gone so badly astray. The conclusion was that his father never > cared much for him. So Cornelius Fudge got the top job...' > We can do better than that. In US hardback edition of OOoP, pg 192 we see a story from the Quibbler on Fudge. In it we have "Cornelius Fudge, the Minister of Magic, denied that he had any plans to take over the running of the Wizarding Bank, Gringotts, when he was elected Minister of Magic five years ago." Now even though this is the Quibbler, I think they would at least be correct about how long Fudge has been minister. Now this is the start of 5th year of Harry at Hogwarts. So Fudge became minister one year before Harry started at Hogwarts. Also note that the Quibbler says Fudge was elected. It is not clear who elected him - all wizards or only a selected group of them. "hplurker" From musicofsilence at hotmail.com Tue Jul 27 17:10:39 2004 From: musicofsilence at hotmail.com (lifeavantgarde) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 17:10:39 -0000 Subject: Wizard Genetics (Was Re: Lily's Family) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107884 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jmay_71" wrote: > Stefanie: > > "Therefore Harry would be considered only 'half' wizard, because of his MOTHER'S GRANDPARENTS." > > To me this is HUGE. > > Steve: > > Until the statement has remained unchallenged on her website for > > 30 days, I'm not considering it a fact. Personally, I think she > > actually meant to say either 'his mother's PARENTS' or Harry's > > grandparents. > > > > dcgmck: > > > > OK. Caution duly noted... But... If, in fact, JKR actually > > titillated us intentionally instead of accidentally (and not just > out of the excitement of her recently announced pregnancy), why do I > have no recollection of anyone ever calling Harry a 'mudblood'? > Malfoy exhibits no reticence in using the term on everyone else of > evident Muggle heritage, so why stop with Harry, whom he so clearly > loathes and envies? > > jmay: > I may be a bit off topic here, but I am gonna go out on a limb and > guess that whether or not JKR made a mistake with Lily's parents or > grandparents doesn't really matter. The big point she is trying to > make is that classification by blood is ridiculous. She shows this > by comparing the DEs to the Nazis. The complete and total irony > being both groups are/were following a leader who's genetic > background included that which they hate. Stefanie: I entirely agree that the blood classification is ridiculous, and I do think that JKR has been trying to make that clear not only in this FAQ but in all of the books. My thinking is that, if this isn't merely a slip, this phrase strongly hints that Lily's *parents* weren't Muggles, hence were wizards during the first rise of Voldemort which, as much speculation has been made, may case different light on the blood protection, Petunia's hate of magic, interactions between her and Dumbledore, Harry's lineage (possible Gryffindor ties through Lily?), etc. While "blood status" has certainly been touted as ridiculous and bigoted in the books, family lineage certainly has not. With Heirs, MANY comparisons to parents, and other references to family (*who's* in one's past, not *what's* in one's past), the significance of choosing one's future either because of, or in spite of one's family has been emphasized greatly. From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Tue Jul 27 17:14:18 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 17:14:18 -0000 Subject: C.O.S. Clues ; WAS Re: JKR website update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107885 Allo Valky! How's school treating ya? >>> Valky wrote: ... the diary and how it came into Lucius possession. To cut a long story short, I believed that Lucius was the keeper of LV's possessions and many as sinister and grand as Toms own Diary, Other speculators were more adherent to the notion that LV's treasure was most likely stowed in the Riddle house, which was Toms own, so therefore more apt to be the location. <<< Bren now: I doubt it was all that difficult for Lucius to get his hands on Tom's old school materials. Either scenario is valid and poses barely any challenges to Lucius. Or combining the two -- put Lucius in charge of the Riddle house and there you have it! >>> Valky: I am sure Lucius' main objective in planting the diary at Hogwarts was a direct attempt on Harry's life. Which most didn't really agree with, but there you go. *shrug* <<< Bren: Oh hehe, and did other members say something like `but Lucius needs Harry alive, to feed him to Voldemort'?? ;P >>> Valky continued: As for the Chamber having an exit, Bren, you have further inspired another muse for me. Recently, I have been contemplating whether LV may have been able to create himself an access route into Hogwarts through books 1 to 5. I supposed that, whilst Ginny was enchanted, Tom used her to cast a disillusionment on one of the secret entrances into Hogwarts from Hogsmeade and vice versa. Specifically the one behind the mirror on the fourth floor. This is the one that mysteriously became blocked during the winter of book 2, the same winter Ginny was staggering around Hogwarts under Toms Possession!*. <<< Brenda: Yes, you brought up an excellent point! I forget where that passage led to though, shame on me! Shame though, with all the anti- Apparition protection and spells, why allow for secret passages? >>> Valky: Now supposing you are right and the blocked tunnel leads somewhere. Lets say, perhaps that it is not another *exit* per se but also _ANOTHER ENTRANCE_ to the Chamber, from Hogsmeade through the 4th floor secret tunnel and _STRAIGHT INTO THE CHAMBER OF SECRETS_ <<< Bren: What a scary thought! But you would also need a snake-carved entrance to enter the Chamber of Secrets in Hogwarts, right? Did we witness anything snake-like in Hogsmeade? I seem to be the ONLY one in this group to obsess over the secret chamber in Malfoy Mansion. But I will push it till Book 7!! I posted my theory on Malfot chamber in Message #105202, I would like to get it re-evaluated. ------------------------------------------[Gist of Message 105202] How *did* Tom Riddle find the Chamber? And if it was the simple matter of speaking in Parseltongue once locating the entrance, why did it take him "five whole years"? And how did he find out he was the Heir of Slytherin anyways? Tom Riddle probably had it much harder to learn the existence of the Chamber and how to operate it. One scenario I can think of is that Salazar Slytherin left a diary of his own, preserving himself as the Hogwarts founder. To me, leaving one's memory in a diary seems so awfully clever that maybe he had learned it from someone else. However, if this was true -- then how did he find that diary, and where was it kept all along? Could it be that it was kept in another secret chamber we know of -- in the Malfoy mansion! What if there was another great war (much like Voldemort vs. Dumbledore) about a thousand years ago, between Slytherin and Gryffindor. The Malfoys could have been Salazar's trustworthy friends/allies/servants (you name it) or even the Secret Keeper. Salazar strikes a deal with Malfoy. "Yo 'sup, Malfo. I have this diary instructing my Heir-to-be how to purse those filthy Mudblood and whatnot, but I need a place to hide it. Would you be a darling and fetch me your house. I will build a secret chamber inside since I trust no one but myself but my house will be too risky now. For a consolation prize I will fill it up with my precious gold, but you will give them back to me when this war is over." ------------------------------------------[End of Message 105202] This of course doesn't explain why Salazar would have needed a Secret Keeper in the first place. Take it away! Brenda From lysandrabellargus at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 27 17:15:34 2004 From: lysandrabellargus at yahoo.co.uk (Sandra) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 17:15:34 -0000 Subject: How should Harry deal with Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107886 all the other excellent posts snipped pippin wrote last: > SNIP > But JKR has said that Harry is going to learn in Book Six that he needs to control his anger. He'd have to grow up a lot, but isn't that what we're expecting him to do? > SNIP > Meanwhile, if his icy anger helps him to lose some of his fear of > Snape, it might actually help Harry see that he's been playing > the "Let's humiliate Harry" game as much as Snape has. SNIP > He's never going to win that one. > SNIP > Who knows, Harry might eventually be able to say, quietly, "Yeah, > dad and Sirius were berks, sometimes," and Snape would be so > astounded he'd melt right through the floor like one of Neville's > cauldrons. now Sandra - not as a direct answer to pippin though: This is a great thread - thanks neri for starting it. It is a question that has kept me wondering and hoping and even more so after the pensieve scene in OoP. I did actually read PS again just the other day to find the start of their bad relationship. For me it is one of the most interesting relationships in the book, because both characters are so complex, and especially in Snapes case might have so many hidden aspects still to discover. And in RL you do come across people you just don't like (or vice versa) and still need to get along with. I just wonder, would if have made any change if the coincidence with the Scar hurting (from QuirrelMort) and the look from Snape did not happen, or Harry did not have the bad luck of potions with the Slytherins. OTOH JKR might have 'used' these to take the Harry-Snape relationship quickly to an extreme, to a point of no return maybe *sigh*. But then again for Snape it was almost compulsory to at least dislike Harry, because of his relationship to James. And here again I wonder, would it have made any difference, if someone (DD?) had told Harry how much James and Snape hated each other and why. Although we do not really know the why, do we? Maybe Snape was really bad as a teenager and James just stood up to him - but no, I do not see the pensieve scene justifiable this easy. I guess just as in RL there will never be an objective way to tell who started it, while truly having a different option (circumstances accounted for). But that was not the question of this thread! I do not think 'name-and-shame' is an option. An excuse from both could help as someone has suggested, or the experience of working together. But as with Sirius and Snape (without the excuse) that just seems to have made the matter worse. In RL mediators are used in such cases, but I am not sure Lupin is the right one, as I am not sure Snape does respect him, and then with all that Lupin has been through, as mentioned in other threads, I doubt it. DD would be the obvious choice but he seems very reluctant to help in this case. For Harry, I agree with some of the posts, a low-profile strategy, taking Snape with a pinch of salt, could be an option. But our hero just does not seem to be the person to do this, although he did have a lot of experience with Umbridge now. He is or at least was not the one to step back or follow rules, if he does not understand why and has a very high sensibility for justice, at the very least when it concerns his friends and himself, and that is one of the ingredients for a 'regular' hero. What could Snape do to improve matters? He is the 'adult' and should have tried to de-escalate this situation long ago. The occlumency lessons were such a good opportunity, with no Malfoy to please, and he just messed it up! I just hope there will be this 'big bang', where either they are truly in this TOGETHER, depending on each other, and put their differences behind the bigger issue of vanquishing LV or that Snape turns out to be ESE!Snape and Harry has been right about him all the time (and some HPfGU members). I personally would much more prefer the first option and think the second one to be less likely (might just be wishful thinking). I will keep my fingers crossed for favourable circumstance for peace in the order! Sandra who comes to terms with Tom Riddle = Lord Voldemort, without any hidden Salazar, and no more Dobby clues... From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 27 17:29:47 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 17:29:47 -0000 Subject: Snape responsible? (was: Snape's part in death of Sirius) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107887 Neri: > There is perhaps not much indication that Snape was delaying in > JKR's mind. OTOH there is also not much indication that, in JKR's > mind, Snape is a responsible man who gives a fig about what > happens to the blasted Potter, or to any Gryffindor. On the face of > it, Snape appears throughout canon as a man full of hate, who is > governed by his emotions rather than by his responsibilities. Now, > if the Snape fans claim this is all Harry's limited and biased > point-of- view, and want to pick canon inside out to prove that > Snape is actually a rational and responsible man, well that's OK > by me. It's actually a lot of fun. Please explain Snape's actions > and timing in the above case. SSSusan: I'm not here to take on the challenge of showing that Snape is a rational & responsible action, but I do have a *question*. I may not be correctly understanding the intention of your statement here, Neri, and it is kind of off what you & Potioncat have been talking about, but.... When you say that "there is also not much indication that...Snape is a responsible man who gives a fig about what happens to the blasted Potter," then how do you address the situation where he counter-cursed Quirrell's curse during the Quidditch match in SS/PS? What WAS he doing if *not* being responsible and if not "caring"--either about blasted Potter or about what DD wants? A curious Siriusly Snapey Susan From pcaehill2 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 27 17:49:15 2004 From: pcaehill2 at sbcglobal.net (pcaehill2) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 17:49:15 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's hold on Petunia [was Re: Lily's Family] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107888 Celestina wrote: [snip] > With Petunia despising her sisters magical abilities, it would > be just like Petunia and Vernon to just deliver Harry to an > orphanage. Dumbledore must have made it very clear to her they > must keep Harry under their roof. As we have seen no compassion > out of either Petunia or Vernon towards Harry(except the scene > when Petunia got the Howler from DD and realized they would be > sentancing Harry to death if he left their home)I do wonder what > deal was struck. I am not so sure if magical protection was > offered to protect Dudley and Petunia, perhaps only while Harry > is staying at the Dursley household. Pam responds: Exactly, re: no astounding compassion from the Dursley's, and that they wouldn't give Harry the time of day if something wasn't in it for them. But Vernon doesn't know what's in it for them, only Petunia seems to know this in OoP, and even then I'm not sure it's compassion that she is showing--I think that if the danger was only to Harry, she might have let Vernon chuck him out. I think "remember my last" was a veiled threat, of sorts--"remember that if you chuck him out on the street, your son (Dudley) will be endangered." And the "blood protection" towards Harry only seems to be in effect when he's in the house or on the grounds chez Dursley. In Wisteria Walk, it was powerless, I think. What about when he attended public school, etc.? Was Mrs. Figg keeping an eye on him whenever he wasn't at home? From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Jul 27 17:52:02 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 17:52:02 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's hold on Petunia [was Re: Lily's Family] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107889 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "celestina707" wrote: I am not so sure if magical > protection was offered to protect Dudley and Petunia, perhaps only > while Harry is staying at the Dursley household.But I am holding on > to my theory that its not Lily's blood that is important in this > story, only James and Harry's, and therefore protection while Harry > was away from the Dursley household is moot since Harry isn't there. Jen: I don't understand this point, Celestina, because we already know Lily's blood is vitally important for Harry's protection. Do you mean you think the Potter's bloodline will be important for the *rest* of the story as opposed to Lily's origins (and thus Petunia and Dudley's blood as well)? That could definitely be true. Please point me to your theory on this--now I'm curious! Thanks, Jen Reese From jlawlor at gmail.com Tue Jul 27 18:00:39 2004 From: jlawlor at gmail.com (James Lawlor) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:00:39 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Balance of Power in the Wizarding World In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96773c88040727110044929677@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107890 Mel: > It's impossible to know who is 2nd to Dumbledore really, it could > just as likely by Minerva. However, I'm going to give Sirius a > shot. James: Ah, beat me to that point! I'm convinced myself that if anyone could be called Dumbledore's 2nd, it would be Minerva. She seems to be, in many ways, his successor. He was the Transfiguration teacher, presumably until he became Headmaster, so it fell to him to select his replacement. Same with the Head of House (he was Gryffindor's HoH at one point wasn't he?) And, I think, most telling, McGonagall is the Deputy Headmistress when Dumbledore is suspended in CoS. This may be a bit of "movie contamination" but I also remember that they seem to have a lot of chemistry between them as well. Not necessarily romantic in the strictest sense, but at the very least, the chemistry of two very old friends. This could be just as far as the school goes, but I expect that if something were to happen to Dumbledore we would see McGonagall taking over the Order as well. - James Lawlor From dk59us at yahoo.com Tue Jul 27 18:13:07 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 18:13:07 -0000 Subject: WW politics (was: When Fudge got the job) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107891 hplurker wrote: > In US hardback edition of OOoP, pg 192 we > see a story from the Quibbler on Fudge. In it we have > > "Cornelius Fudge, the Minister of Magic, denied that he had any > plans to take over the running of the Wizarding Bank, Gringotts, > when he was elected Minister of Magic five years ago." > > Now even though this is the Quibbler, I think they would at least be > correct about how long Fudge has been minister. Now this is the > start of 5th year of Harry at Hogwarts. So Fudge became minister > one year before Harry started at Hogwarts. > > Also note that the Quibbler says Fudge was elected. It is not clear > who elected him - all wizards or only a selected group of them. > > "hplurker" Eustace_Scrubb adds: Nor does it give us a clue as to whether he had an opponent in the election. Even if there's a universal adult franchise in the WW, if there's no choice that's somewhat meaningless. And there's very little to suggest that there's any sort of "loyal opposition" in the WW in a formal political sense. Maybe we'll learn more when the actual change takes place...if there's an electoral campaign to succeed Fudge, it will have to at least get mentioned, won't it? Then again, maybe there's an established order of succession and some deputy at MoM will assume the post of Minister for the remainder of Fudge's term. That could point to Umbridge, potentially. What a turn that would be, provided she's lost her fear of clomping hoofs! If, as seems likely, there's more darkness brewing in HBP, Umbridge as MoM certainly would contribute to it. Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Tue Jul 27 18:28:16 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 18:28:16 -0000 Subject: Snape responsible? (was: Snape's part in death of Sirius) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107892 > SSSusan: > I'm not here to take on the challenge of showing that Snape is a > rational & responsible action, but I do have a *question*. > > I may not be correctly understanding the intention of your statement > here, Neri, and it is kind of off what you & Potioncat have been > talking about, but.... When you say that "there is also not much > indication that...Snape is a responsible man who gives a fig about > what happens to the blasted Potter," then how do you address the > situation where he counter-cursed Quirrell's curse during the > Quidditch match in SS/PS? What WAS he doing if *not* being > responsible and if not "caring"--either about blasted Potter or about > what DD wants? Neri: Evasion, SSSusan. One of the best tactics in any discussion ;-) I don't have to explain Snape's motive here. It's canon. DD explains that Snape did it in order to be quits with James' memory. No caring or responsibility here. If it was a responsible action, Snape would have went immediately after that to DD and told him about his suspicions regarding Quirrell. Now, you say, maybe he did, and then DD just let Quirrellmort stroll around in Hogwarts in order to make the match more interesting. Could be, but you notice how fast we leave reliable canon and sail into the realms of wild speculation only to defend the honor of poor Sevvy. I refuse to further nitpick any other cases before I read a satisfactory nitpicking of Severus' responsibility in the night of the DoM Battle. Neri From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 27 19:13:10 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 19:13:10 -0000 Subject: Snape's part in death of Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107893 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > > Neri: > It should be several hundred miles from Scotland to London. > ...edited... Asian_lovr2: Approximately 450 miles from my best guess location of Hogwarts in an unpopulated area of the highlands to central London. A LONG time ago, myself and one other person in particular had an extended discussion on the nature of Thestral flight. We each professed different methods but agree that Thestrals possess some form of Magical flight. Not just magic in that they are able to fly, but magical in the nature of the flight itself. The shortest and simplest summary, is that for a fraction of a second each second the Thestral jump to 'warp-speed' then back to normal speed. This gives the impression of real-time flight (wind, time, distance) while at the same time allowing time and distance compression. Result is that you feel like you are traveling 100 mph, but are functionally traveling at 300mph. (Note: 450 miles = 1.5hrs at 300mph) Two hours travel time seems excessive based on my interpretation of the fight. One hours seems closer to my read. As a side note, Today July 27 Begin civil twilight 5:19 a.m. End civil twilight 9:19 p.m. > ...edited... > > Neri: > The problem starts when Snape contacts the Order the first time. He > already knows that Harry believes in Sirius being hostage at the DoM > enough to break into Umbridge's office. ... Snape ... suspect that > Harry had a mind contact with the Dark Lord? ... Yet he tells HQ > nothing about it. Asian_lovr2: We don't know that. At that point, Harry believe Sirius has been taken to the Ministry by Voldemort. Snape intent is to verify that Sirius is at Grimmauld Place which he does. However, we don't know the exact contents of that conversation. Remember at this time it's about 6pm; still daylight, and the Ministry is probably still occupied, so the whole idea is pretty far fetched. Snape may very well have relayed to Lupin and Sirius that Harry thought Sirius was at the Ministry of Magic. That would not have been cause for anyone to rush off and do anything. The logical next step would have been to simply tell Harry that Sirius was safe. Unfortunately, since Harry was in Umbridge and the I-Squad's custody, telling Harry would have to wait for an clear opportunity. The next thing Snape knows is that Umbridge has marched off into the wood with Harry and Hermione on some wild goose chase. Into the wooda with Umbridge is certainly cause for concern on serveral points, but not necessarily cause for immediate action. Snape must, afteral, maintain his front for the I-Squad, and as much as he may despise Umbridge, I don't think Snape would concluded the Umbridge would be foolish enough to take Harry and Hermione to the woods with the intention of doing them harm. So, we have students in the custody of an armed teacher and high ministry official, even though they may be in the woods, that's not necessarily cause for panic or drastic action. So... he waits. Certainly, after an hour he would start to wonder and worry, but still not time to panic yet. Not much later, he would become concerned enough to contact the Order with his suspicion that Harry would attempt to travel to London, then he went to search for Harry. If Harry wasn't found, and Snape knew Harry's friends entered the woods to aid Harry, and they too could not be found. Now it's time to panic. So, he marshals the troops and sends them off to the Ministry to rescue Harry and friends if need be. However, even at this time, they have no real evidence that Harry is actually at the Ministry. He could just be lost in the woods. But the logical course of action is to check the Ministry. I see no problem with that timeline. I'll say this even though I know it doesn't need to be said, but we have to remember that as readers we are priviledge to information and insight that the characters don't have. When we analyse this, we have to do it from Snape's limited knowledge and his limited ability to act under the circumstances. > > Neri: > ...edited... > > JKR's mind? There is perhaps not much indication that Snape was > delaying in JKR's mind. OTOH there is also not much indication that, > in JKR's mind, Snape is a responsible man who gives a fig about what > happens to the blasted Potter, or to any Gryffindor. ...edited... > Please explain Snape's actions and timing in the above case. > > Neri Asian_lovr2: We must also temper the timeline with the fact that Snape is not an overly emotional man; he is not prone to panic or sudden rash decisions, and he is hampered by not being able to tip his hand, or reveal his true allegiance to anyone. We don't know that happened or what was said when Snape first contacted Sirius, but I doubt that it went like this - Snape: Lupin! Lupin! It's important that I speak with Sirius immediately. Lupin: He's here, I'll run and get him. Sirius (comes runnning): What! What is it! What's happened? Snape: Nothing. ...bye. Logically, Snape would give them a basic explanation. But as I said before, no one would see this a cause for panic. Especially when Harry was currently in Umbridge's custody, and not in a position to take any rash actions. Later Snape finds the Umbridge, Harry, and Hermoine have gone into the woods. This may have been before or after Ron and friends escaped from the I-Squad. Especially if before the escape, this trip to the woods in not cause for panic; Umbridge is with them, and she is armed. Only after sufficient time has passed, and addition fellow students have joined them is it time to worry. Snape searches the forest, find no one, suspect Harry may have found a way to get to London, and notifies the Order. Now is the time for serious concern, but still not really time for panic. As I said before, you can't analyse this from the reader's perspective because we have knowledge and insight that the characters don't. You have to make a reasonable analysis based on the information that Snape had available to him. That has to be tempered with knowing that Snape is not prone to panic or impulsive action, and that has to be re-tempered with Snape not being able to show any outward concern for Harry in front of non-Order members. Just a thought. Steve/asian_lovr2 - soon to have a new username b_boymn From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 27 19:13:09 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 19:13:09 -0000 Subject: Snape responsible? (was: Snape's part in death of Sirius) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107894 SSSusan: > > I'm not here to take on the challenge of showing that Snape is a > > rational & responsible action, but I do have a *question*. > > > > I may not be correctly understanding the intention of your > > statement here, Neri, and it is kind of off what you & Potioncat > > have been talking about, but.... When you say that "there is > > also not much indication that...Snape is a responsible man who > > gives a fig about what happens to the blasted Potter," then how > > do you address the situation where he counter-cursed Quirrell's > > curse during the Quidditch match in SS/PS? What WAS he doing if > > *not* being responsible and if not "caring"--either about blasted > > Potter or about what DD wants? Neri: > Evasion, SSSusan. One of the best tactics in any discussion ;-) > > I don't have to explain Snape's motive here. It's canon. DD > explains that Snape did it in order to be quits with James' memory. > No caring or responsibility here. If it was a responsible action, > Snape would have went immediately after that to DD and told him > about his suspicions regarding Quirrell. Now, you say, maybe he > did, and then DD just let Quirrellmort stroll around in Hogwarts in > order to make the match more interesting. Could be, but you notice > how fast we leave reliable canon and sail into the realms of wild > speculation only to defend the honor of poor Sevvy. I refuse to > further nitpick any other cases before I read a satisfactory > nitpicking of Severus' responsibility in the night of the DoM > Battle. SSSusan: ME, evading?!?! ;-) Fair enough, Neri--thanks for pointing to that bit from DD. It's just what I wanted, an explanation...and I had forgotten it. [Sometimes it's a pain to be away from my books while I'm doing most of my posting. But if I had a stack of 2,689 pages sitting next to my computer, *somebody* just *might* get suspicious!] Anyhoo, your point about Snape *not* running off to DD after the Quidditch match is something I do struggle with. I DON'T believe he did, I DON'T believe DD knew Voldy was *right* there *on* Quirrell, so... if I'm right about that... then Snape did keep silent. Why?? Haven't the foggiest. Grrrrr! As for Snape's actions the night of the DoM battle, well, um... I think you & Potioncat were doing just fine handling that discussion without me. Evadingly yours, Siriusly Snapey Susan From mommystery at hotmail.com Tue Jul 27 19:32:54 2004 From: mommystery at hotmail.com (mommystery2003) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 19:32:54 -0000 Subject: Snape's part in death of Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107896 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > > Potioncat: > > One flaw I see in your timelines (both very good, but I snipped for > > space) is that some of the events overlap. > > Neri: > No overlap that I can see. The terms that appear to be overlapping > are with opposite signs. Just draw on paper three parallel timelines > (Harry's, Snape's and the Order members') and you'll see it > immediately. > > > The other is that we > > don't know how long the trip to London took. The train takes > hours, > > but Harry is thinking that he is going faster than he ever has > > before. > > > > Neri: > It should be several hundred miles from Scotland to London. If they > did it in only 2 hrs it would still be much faster than Harry ever > flew before (knight bus' quantum leaps notwithstanding). > > > The battle between the DA and DEs does not seem to last very long, > > but I couldn't begin to guess how long it actually is. Then the > > Order shows up and it continues for a while. Then DD sends Harry > to > > Hogwarts and Harry watches the dawn. How long is a night in > Hogwarts > > in June? > > > > Neri: > My guess would be around 6 hrs. Maybe only 5 from last twilight to > first light of dawn. Events from the take-off-from-the-forest until > Harry's-back-to-DD-office should add up to this amount. > > > > > Even if the fight in her office had made noise, who would have > > noticed or cared? I would think the castle was pretty noisy by this > > time. Students had been warned away from the area near her > office. > > Most wouldn't care if something happened to her and > might "overlook" > > the sound if they did hear it. > > > > Snape finds out Black is safe. He presumes Harry is with > Umbridge. > > Harry once did detention with her from supper until midnight. When > > would Snape miss his students? If he spends as much time in the > > Slytherin common room, as McGonagall does in the Gryffindor common > > room, then he wouldn't know about his students until they worked > > themselves free and came for help. > > > > Neri: > Potioncat, you don't have an argument with me, you have an argument > with Pippin: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/107781 > > Either it is the on-top-of-it-all, the-last-defender-of-Hogwarts > Snape, or it is sits-in-his-office-and-doesn't-know-bout-nothing > Snape. You can't have it both ways. > > > At that point (whenever that is) he finds out they left the > castle. > > I still don't think he has any reason to think that Harry could get > > to the MoM. Or perhaps this is the point that he contacts the > > Order, because he finds out that Umbridge and Harry left a "long > > time" ago. He starts searching the Forest after he contacts the > > Order. > > > > Neri: > The problem starts when Snape contacts the Order the first time. He > already knows that Harry believes in Sirius being hostage at the DoM > enough to break into Umbridge's office. At this point, is it possible > for Snape not to suspect that Harry had a mind contact with the Dark > Lord? Snape already knows about three such cases, two of them that he > personally saw in Harry's mind. Yet he tells HQ nothing about it. He > only inquires if Sirius is there. Then he either doesn't bother to > check about Harry's situation, or he finds out that Harry went to the > most dangerous place around, and instead of notifying HQ immediately > he waits several (critical) hours into the night doing absolutely > nothing. > > Was he delaying on purpose? I personally don't believe he was. Was he > acting responsibly? You decide. > > > But still, I ask, does anything in canon indicate that Snape was > > delaying in JKR's mind? If he was, then I would think it will come > > up in Book 6 or 7. But this reminds me of SS/PS. I once asked > > where Snape was while the Trio were working their way through the > > Tasks. Someone worked out an explanation. And, for the kids to be > > the heroes, they have to be able to pull things over on the adults. > > Neri: > In SS/PS there wasn't any discussion in the book about what Snape was > doing during the time and how did it affect the outcome. There is > definitely a discussion about it in OotP. > > JKR's mind? There is perhaps not much indication that Snape was > delaying in JKR's mind. OTOH there is also not much indication that, > in JKR's mind, Snape is a responsible man who gives a fig about what > happens to the blasted Potter, or to any Gryffindor. On the face of > it, Snape appears throughout canon as a man full of hate, who is > governed by his emotions rather than by his responsibilities. Now, if > the Snape fans claim this is all Harry's limited and biased point- of- > view, and want to pick canon inside out to prove that Snape is > actually a rational and responsible man, well that's OK by me. It's > actually a lot of fun. Please explain Snape's actions and timing in > the above case. > > Neri There are only two people responsible for Black's death, and they are Bellatrix and Voldemort, who lured him to the MoM. Sirius also must accept some of the blame because he did not follow orders and stay put. What was stopping him from contacting Dumbledore or any other member of the Order before he goes rushing off to the MoM? I'm not sure we'll ever know the complete timeline of what happened, but Dumbledore himself absolved Snape of any guilt. I think we'll find at the end that Snape is, was, and always will be looking after Harry. Ces From imontero at iname.com Tue Jul 27 19:11:27 2004 From: imontero at iname.com (lunamk03) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 19:11:27 -0000 Subject: JKR website update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107898 Katie wrote: > Yes, In one of the Sorting Hat's songs he says that GG took the hat > off his own head and "gave it brains" so the hat could continue to > sort the students after the founders had left the school. > As for the discovery made in CoS... Harry discovered a lot about > Hagrid in that book. The fact that Tom Riddle framed him, he was > innocent and that Arogog exists. I sure hope that the Hagrid is > the HBP. Luna: Hi Katie, I would have thought the same, but then I remember reading in JKR's web site that the HBP does not appear in Chamber, or that there is nothing in Chamber that relates to the HBP. I think that the HBP is going to be a new character, maybe the new Defense against The Dark Arts teacher. On the other hand, there is something that Harry discovers in chamber that is going to be important in the sixth book. I stared to list all the things that Harry discovered in Chamber and Hagrid being framed was on the top 3. The thing is that this was already dealt with in POA: Hagrid was absolved and became a teacher. Now, I think we are looking for something that Harry discovered and that hasn't been properly dealt with just yet. Harry being parseltongue was another discovery, then we learned that this power was transmitted by Voldemort to Harry when he received the death curse. The key might be in this piece of information. Probably, the ability to talk to snakes might not be the only power Harry inherited from Voldemort. Maybe Harry can possess people the same way Voldemort does, but he is not yet aware of this power. What else does Harry discover in Chamber? He learns about the existence of house elves and Slytherin's chamber of secrets, about Fawkes, about the diary and Lucius Malfoy, also about Lucius having a lot of dark objects that he wants to keep secret. He learns that Ginny has a crush on him and that the Hat hides Gryffindor's sword. Other ideas to add to this list? Anyone? Luna From dzeytoun at cox.net Tue Jul 27 19:23:33 2004 From: dzeytoun at cox.net (dzeytoun at cox.net) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:23:33 -0400 Subject: How should Harry deal with Snape Message-ID: <20040727192333.LMVA9654.lakermmtao04.cox.net@smtp.east.cox.net> No: HPFGUIDX 107899 Pippin said: What Harry needs to do is change the way he reacts to the bullying, not because Snape is making him, but because Harry has that power and that choice. He, unlike Snape, is not in thrall to compulsive behavior. Harry can't change the rules: as long as Snape is a teacher and Harry a student, Snape will have ways to abuse his power, and as long as Harry is human, Snape will be able to find some weakness to exploit. But Harry can change the game. Instead of playing, "Every time Snape humiliates me, he wins," he can change the game to "Every time I keep my temper and don't mouth off, I win." Then insults won't be a way of keeping score, he won't have to take them seriously and he can concentrate on visualizing that vulture hat every time Snape starts in on him. Who knows, Harry might eventually be able to say, quietly, "Yeah, dad and Sirius were berks, sometimes," and Snape would be so astounded he'd melt right through the floor like one of Neville's cauldrons. DZEYTOUN: Oh dear, I hope things don't get this insipid. After five years of abuse Harry decides to take a page out of "An Officer and a Gentleman." Snape has been the one who has abused Harry consistently for five years. It is to *Snape* that the consequences and changes must come home to roost, *not* to Harry. From dzeytoun at cox.net Tue Jul 27 19:47:18 2004 From: dzeytoun at cox.net (dzeytoun at cox.net) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:47:18 -0400 Subject: Harry's Cold Anger (was RE: How should Harry deal with Snape) Message-ID: <20040727194721.QXEO20727.lakermmtao10.cox.net@smtp.east.cox.net> No: HPFGUIDX 107900 cubfanbudwoman wrote: In fact, and maybe surprisingly, I think that icy hatred might work *very well* to get Harry to the point where he can do this. Maybe I'm weird, but I think when he's hopping mad, filled with fiery indignation and rage, he CAN'T see reason. When a person feels *icy* hatred, it's somehow calmer, leaving room for a little rationality to enter in. I mean, it's "hotheads" who make rash, angry decisions, right? DZEYTOUN: Oh my goodness, no, no, and absolutely not! Icy anger is MUCH more dangerous than hot anger, and MUCH harder to deal with. Whereas the hotheads make rash decisions, its the people possessed of icy hatred who make misguided, malicious decisions that cause a hundred times as much hurt and injury. Look at Snape himself, if you want an example. Is he a hothead? Generally not, except when provoked by some extreme situation (catching Harry in his pensieve, having the Order of Merlin withdrawn). Typically, Snape's anger is of the cold and long-enduring sort. That last is the most dangerous aspect of icy rage - it endures. Whereas hot anger burns itself out relatively quickly, icy hatred settles into the core of a person and sinks roots. It can easily persist, unabated, for decades (and even centuries in the case of whole groups of people). JKR has said that Harry must "Master his own feelings." I would caution against making easy assumptions about what this means. Lots of people would like to see Harry not exploding. Very well. That would be a form of mastering his feelings. But it is quite possible to master your feelings in this regard and do nothing whatsoever about eliminating your anger. Snape is a master occlumens, and thus has done a superb job of "mastering his feelings" by his own definition (e.g. when he barks at Harry "Master yourself!") That has had little effect on his rage, however. In short - and this is not a prediction, just a plausible outcome - Harry might well "Master Himself" in book 6 by controlling his outbursts, but at the cost of feeding the cold anger inside. His isolation from his friends at the end of OOTP is not a good sign. By the end of Book 6, Harry and Snape might well be able to work effectively together in some sense - but only because Harry has become MUCH more like Snape. Dzeytoun From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Tue Jul 27 20:27:20 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 16:27:20 -0400 Subject: Lily and Magic outside of school (was Fudge/Transfer of Power/Lily's Family) Message-ID: <001201c47418$1f4eedc0$1e03e440@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 107901 Amey: > > > "This solves the mystery how Lily could easily do magic at home > > > in vacation, if her family was magic." DuffyPoo now: > > I don't think so. I think, if she truly had done magic at home > > in vacation, and it wasn't just Petunia's ranting, then the rule > > must have been changed at some point between her time at Hogwarts > > and Harry's. Meltowne: > It's in there - Dumbledore makes a comment that he didn't agree > with the underage restrictions, I think in a conversation with > Fudge. This would suggest that Fudge was involved in that > decision, and that it happened after he become minister - after LV > fell, and thus after Lily left Hogwarts. SSSusan: "Ooooh, that's interesting. Meltowne (or another HPfGUer), could you provide the reference for this? I'd love to go read it, but it's not ringing a bell." DuffyPoo again. I've spent half the afternoon looking for it and can't find any reference to that item above. Doesn't mean it's not there....I've been racking my brains for conversations between Fudge and DD and looking them up frantically. What I was trying to say, originally, and apparently didn't make myself clear, is that Lily having magical parents (if, indeed, she did) doesn't mean she could have done magic at home on holidays from school. *Unless* the current rules that are in place now were not in place when she and James were at Hogwarts. Now, at least for as long as Harry & Co, and probably the two previous years that F&G have been at Hogwarts, the students are specifically told they *cannot* do magic during the holidays. Fred wishes they would forget to give them the note at the end of the summer term. 'I always hope they'll forget to give us these,' said Fred Weasley sadly. This was in his third year so I can only presume that *always* means the two previous years he was at Hogwarts. As for when Fudge became MoM, according to a Quibbler article Harry read on the Hogwarts Express in OotP, "Cornelius Fudge...when he was *elected* Minister for Magic *five* years ago." Whether that can be taken as fact is anybody's guess considering the type of articles that are in the Quibbler. However, if I was a witch reading the Quibbler, and I saw "five years ago" and knew myself it had been 10 years ago, or 12, that would make me skeptical of the quality of their articles, even if I did believe every word they wrote otherwise - even the stuff about the Crumple Horned Snorkack. A verifiable fact would be hard to *fudge* (sorry) even in a magazine of this quality. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 27 20:32:13 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 20:32:13 -0000 Subject: How should Harry deal with Snape In-Reply-To: <20040727192333.LMVA9654.lakermmtao04.cox.net@smtp.east.cox.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107902 snip. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, wrote: Oh dear, I hope things don't get this insipid. After five years of > abuse Harry decides to take a page out of "An Officer and a Gentleman." > > Snape has been the one who has abused Harry consistently for five years. It is > to *Snape* that the consequences and changes must come home to roost, *not* to > Harry. Alla: Oh, I agree, Dzeytoun, I do, but I am afraid that JKR will make Harry to do a first step, no matter how unrelistic and unsatisfying TO ME it will look. At least I hope that some kind of cataclysmic event will make him do it (DD death? As Boyd suggested) I am hoping not to see Harry's sudden realisation that Snape is an OK guy. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 27 20:38:03 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 20:38:03 -0000 Subject: How should Harry deal with Snape In-Reply-To: <20040727192333.LMVA9654.lakermmtao04.cox.net@smtp.east.cox.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107903 Pippin said: > What Harry needs to do is change the way he reacts to the > bullying, not because Snape is making him, but because Harry > has that power and that choice. He, unlike Snape, is not in thrall > to compulsive behavior. Harry can't change the rules: as long as > Snape is a teacher and Harry a student, Snape will have ways to > abuse his power, and as long as Harry is human, Snape will be > able to find some weakness to exploit. But Harry can change > the game. > > Instead of playing, "Every time Snape humiliates me, he wins," > he can change the game to "Every time I keep my temper and > don't mouth off, I win." Then insults won't be a way of keeping > score, he won't have to take them seriously and he can > concentrate on visualizing that vulture hat every time Snape > starts in on him. > > Who knows, Harry might eventually be able to say, quietly, "Yeah, > dad and Sirius were berks, sometimes," and Snape would be so > astounded he'd melt right through the floor like one of Neville's > cauldrons. DZEYTOUN: > Oh dear, I hope things don't get this insipid. After five years of > abuse Harry decides to take a page out of "An Officer and a > Gentleman." > > Snape has been the one who has abused Harry consistently for five > years. It is to *Snape* that the consequences and changes must > come home to roost, *not* to Harry. SSSusan: BUT IF IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN, IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN. [Sorry, if that seemed like shouting, but this is beginning to drive me nuts.] If Snape's not going to change (or not change much), and most seem to think that's highly likely--I think you & I even agree on that?--then there are two remaining options: 1) Harry & Snape continue on as they have for the first five years; 2) Harry CHOOSES to alter his own behavior. Given what option 1 has "done" for Harry, I think it's just possible that he might decide to try 2, in spite of his personal feelings regarding Snape. It has nothing to do with what Snape deserves or doesn't deserve, nor with what he should or shouldn't do (many people think Snape *should* change), but it has everything to do with Harry taking control of the situation. I can't picture the *particular* scene that Pippin has presented, but I would love to see Snape's narrowed eyes as he must contemplate Harry doing SOMETHING unexpected, such as *not* talking back, *not* allowing his mind to wander while potion-making, or *not* being caught out of bounds or otherwise breaking the rules. It would be loverly, imo. Siriusly Snapey Susan From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 27 20:44:02 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 20:44:02 -0000 Subject: How should Harry deal with Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107904 dzeytown: > > Oh dear, I hope things don't get this insipid. After five years > > of abuse Harry decides to take a page out of "An Officer and a > > Gentleman." > > > > Snape has been the one who has abused Harry consistently for five > > years. It is to *Snape* that the consequences and changes must > > come home to roost, *not* to Harry. Alla: > Oh, I agree, Dzeytoun, I do, but I am afraid that JKR will make > Harry to do a first step, no matter how unrelistic and unsatisfying > TO ME it will look. > > At least I hope that some kind of cataclysmic event will make him > do it (DD death? As Boyd suggested) > > I am hoping not to see Harry's sudden realisation that Snape is an > OK guy. SSSusan: I *should* stay out of this and let Pippin respond, but I must ask: Are you *sure* what Pippin described was all about Harry realizing Snape is an OK guy?? That's not how I read it at all. In fact, I don't think Harry *will* think that; rather, I think he will just come to a place where he can master his feelings enough to SET THEM ASIDE around Snape much better than he has been able to before. He can still loathe things about Snape; he can still despise his treatment of people; he can still think he's not okay; and yet acknowledge that he's an ally in an important way. Siriusly Snapey Susan From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 27 20:54:43 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 20:54:43 -0000 Subject: Harry's Cold Anger (was RE: How should Harry deal with Snape) In-Reply-To: <20040727194721.QXEO20727.lakermmtao10.cox.net@smtp.east.cox.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107905 SSSusan: >>>In fact, and maybe surprisingly, I think that icy hatred might work *very well* to get Harry to the point where he can do this. Maybe I'm weird, but I think when he's hopping mad, filled with fiery indignation and rage, he CAN'T see reason. When a person feels *icy* hatred, it's somehow calmer, leaving room for a little rationality to enter in. I mean, it's "hotheads" who make rash, angry decisions, right?<<< DZEYTOUN: >> Oh my goodness, no, no, and absolutely not! Icy anger is MUCH more dangerous than hot anger, and MUCH harder to deal with. Whereas the hotheads make rash decisions, its the people possessed of icy hatred who make misguided, malicious decisions that cause a hundred times as much hurt and injury. Look at Snape himself.... That last is the most dangerous aspect of icy rage - it endures. Whereas hot anger burns itself out relatively quickly, icy hatred settles into the core of a person and sinks roots. It can easily persist, unabated, for decades (and even centuries in the case of whole groups of people). JKR has said that Harry must "Master his own feelings." I would caution against making easy assumptions about what this means. Lots of people would like to see Harry not exploding. Very well. That would be a form of mastering his feelings. But it is quite possible to master your feelings in this regard and do nothing whatsoever about eliminating your anger. In short - and this is not a prediction, just a plausible outcome - Harry might well "Master Himself" in book 6 by controlling his outbursts, but at the cost of feeding the cold anger inside. His isolation from his friends at the end of OOTP is not a good sign. By the end of Book 6, Harry and Snape might well be able to work effectively together in some sense - but only because Harry has become MUCH more like Snape.<< SSSusan: Yes, I *can* see your point about the danger of this kind of icy hatred, Dzeytoun. You are likely right that the "danger period" with hot rage is a shorter one because it tends to burn out quickly. And I don't know enough about icy hatred to know whether it allows for rational thought & behavior or not. I think it is something we're going to have to wait & see about. btw--I don't necessarily want Harry not to explode on occasion. I'd just like to see him do it somewhere *besides* when he's with Snape. If you're right that if Harry masters himself by controlling his outbursts but becomes only colder, harder, more rage-filled inside, more like SNAPE...then I wonder... would that help him in the end if he needed to use the AK against Voldy? Or would that just make him "not Harry"? I wouldn't want that. Well, it's all interesting, and we've probably gone 'round & 'round as far as we can go. My hunch is still that Harry will find a way, eventually, of coming to terms w/ Snape because he'll be so focused on the mission at hand. And I think he'll manage to do it *without* turning into another Snape. BUT we shall see! Siriusly Snapey Susan From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 27 21:03:34 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 21:03:34 -0000 Subject: How should Harry deal with Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107907 > SSSusan: > > I *should* stay out of this and let Pippin respond, but I must > ask: > > Are you *sure* what Pippin described was all about Harry realizing > > Snape is an OK guy?? That's not how I read it at all. In fact, I > > don't think Harry *will* think that; rather, I think he will just > > come to a place where he can master his feelings enough to SET THEM > > ASIDE around Snape much better than he has been able to before. He > > can still loathe things about Snape; he can still despise his > > treatment of people; he can still think he's not okay; and yet > > acknowledge that he's an ally in an important way. > > > > Alla: > > Hi, Susan. Why should you stay out of this? I am sure Pippin won't > mind. I know I don't mind. :o) > > > Acknowledging that Snape is an ally? Yes, in fact Harry had started > to do it at the end of GoF and in OoP, before Occlumency disaster > stroke. He did not accuse Snape of being ESE! in that book, right? > > But I think that Pippin's suggestion painted a bit different reaction > and more to the side of acknowledgement that Snape... well, is OK > guy. :o)(Pippin, correct me, if I am wrong, please) From patientx3 at aol.com Tue Jul 27 21:07:54 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 21:07:54 -0000 Subject: How should Harry deal with Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107908 SSSusan wrote: >> If Snape's not going to change (or not change much), and most seem to think that's highly likely--I think you & I even agree on that?-- then there are two remaining options: 1) Harry & Snape continue on as they have for the first five years; 2) Harry CHOOSES to alter his own behavior. Given what option 1 has "done" for Harry, I think it's just possible that he might decide to try 2, in spite of his personal feelings regarding Snape. It has nothing to do with what Snape deserves or doesn't deserve, nor with what he should or shouldn't do (many people think Snape *should* change), but it has everything to do with Harry taking control of the situation. << HunterGreen: Exactly. I think that's the problem with this thread, no one is saying that its Harry's RESPONSIBILTY to change the situation, only that Snape never will change so if Harry wants things to get better he has to do it himself. The question Neri asked is what could Harry do to make things better? Not 'what should happen between Harry and Snape to make things better.' Yes, since Snape is the source of *most* (not all) of the problems, and since he is the adult, then it would be his responsibility moreso than Harry to fix things, but he never will. He never will. Harry is younger, thus less set in his ways; and is not seeing the situation through a false impression (that being, Snape's belief that Harry is just as arrogant as his father). Not only that, he has the most to gain from a change. Snape, I'd say, is not too bothered by the situation, he rather likes throwing off his little sarcastic quips, and he rather likes taking points from Gryffindor and watching Harry get ever-so-madder. So why would Snape change? He doesn't care if he's hurting Harry's feelings, and he doesn't seem interesting in finding out whether or not his impressions about Harry are true. Harry is the one 'suffering' in this situation, so, like SSSusan said, he has two choices. One is to leave things as they are, and the other is to try to make things better. From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Jul 27 21:11:21 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 21:11:21 -0000 Subject: Snape responsible? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107909 SSSusan > Anyhoo, your point about Snape *not* running off to DD after the Quidditch match is something I do struggle with. I DON'T believe he did, I DON'T believe DD knew Voldy was *right* there *on* Quirrell, so... if I'm right about that... then Snape did keep silent. Why?? Haven't the foggiest. Grrrrr!< I don't think he did. Dumbledore in OOP:"...this ability of yours--to detect Voldemort's presence even when he is disguised." How certain are we that if Dumbledore and Snape had cornered Quirrell and yanked the turban off, they'd have found anything visible but the perfectly normal appearing back of Quirrell's head? Do you really think it could have been that easy? Maybe, if Harry had touched Quirrell--but they didn't know about that yet, did they? If Hogwarts teachers could be sacked mid-year without evidence of misconduct, Umbridge would have done it. What evidence did they have? Snape did not see Quirrell on his way to the 3rd floor corridor. He could not prove that Quirrell was hexing the broom. Harry and Hermione told Hagrid they thought *Snape* had done it. Raising the issue would have got Snape sacked, not Quirrell. The only evidence was the pain in Harry's scar. Dumbledore knew what it meant, as we learn in OOP, but we can see that he didn't have much luck in convincing anyone else in GoF and OOP. Bringing that up would have warned Voldemort about the connection without necessarily convincing anyone else. Pippin From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 27 21:21:34 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 21:21:34 -0000 Subject: How should Harry deal with Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107910 > HunterGreen: > Exactly. I think that's the problem with this thread, no one is > saying that its Harry's RESPONSIBILTY to change the situation, only > that Snape never will change so if Harry wants things to get better > he has to do it himself. The question Neri asked is what could Harry > do to make things better? Not 'what should happen between Harry and > Snape to make things better.' Alla: I understand what you are suggesting. What I am saying that it is unrealistic right now to expect Harry to do something about it. He is too hurt by MoM disaster From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 27 21:23:21 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 21:23:21 -0000 Subject: Snape responsible? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107911 SSSusan > Anyhoo, your point about Snape *not* running off to DD after > the Quidditch match is something I do struggle with. I DON'T > believe he did, I DON'T believe DD knew Voldy was *right* there > *on* Quirrell, so... if I'm right about that... then Snape did > keep silent. Why?? Haven't the foggiest. Grrrrr! Pippin: > I don't think he did. Dumbledore in OOP:"...this ability of yours-- > to detect Voldemort's presence even when he is disguised." How > certain are we that if Dumbledore and Snape had cornered > Quirrell and yanked the turban off, they'd have found anything > visible but the perfectly normal appearing back of Quirrell's > head? SSSusan: I'm sorry, Pippin, that's not what I meant. Let me clarify. When I said that Snape stayed silent, I meant that he stayed silent about having issued a counter-curse to Quirrell's curse. WHY did he do that? WHY didn't he tell DD that Quirrell was hexing Harry's broom? Or do you think that Snape didn't know *who*, just that it was happening? Pippin: > If Hogwarts teachers could be sacked mid-year without evidence > of misconduct, Umbridge would have done it. What evidence did > they have? Snape did not see Quirrell on his way to the 3rd floor > corridor. He could not prove that Quirrell was hexing the broom. > Harry and Hermione told Hagrid they thought *Snape* had done > it. Raising the issue would have got Snape sacked, not Quirrell. SSSusan: Snape may not have had proof about Quirrell, but he had suspicions; otherwise the "where your loyalties lie" speech wouldn't have happened. I'm just asking why Snape went SOLO in his plan to watch over Quirrell. Why didn't he tell DD all this? Or do you think DD *did* know about Snape's concerns and didn't do any investigating? Why would DD have believed what H/R/H *thought*, rather than what Snape *said*? And why wouldn't Snape have just told the truth: that Quirrel (or *someone*, if he was not sure it was Q.) was hexing Harry's broom? I can't imagine that DD would doubt Snape. After all, he's always saying, "I trust Severus Snape." Siriusly Snapey Susan From McGregorMax at ec.rr.com Tue Jul 27 21:32:00 2004 From: McGregorMax at ec.rr.com (mcmaxslb) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 21:32:00 -0000 Subject: "Alas", how about Umbridge as new MoM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107912 --- Brenda M.wrote: > How about Umbridge? She's already the Senior Secretary of Ministry > (or some sort), won't be too much promotion for her! Never happen. Fudge is not going to just step aside at MoM. When it sinks in that Harry and Dumbledore were right that Voldemort has been around for over a year and Fudge did worst than nothing about it, the people of the WW will throw Fudge out of office and when he goes everybody around him goes as well, including Umbridge and Percy too. Plus I think that JKR will have a line in HBP telling that Umbridge is in Azkaban for what she has done. McMax. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 27 21:42:07 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 21:42:07 -0000 Subject: "Alas", how about Umbridge as new MoM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107913 > --- Brenda M.wrote earlier: > > How about Umbridge? She's already the Senior Secretary of Ministry > > (or some sort), won't be too much promotion for her! > > > > McMax: > Never happen. Fudge is not going to just step aside at MoM. When it > sinks in that Harry and Dumbledore were right that Voldemort has been > around for over a year and Fudge did worst than nothing about it, the > people of the WW will throw Fudge out of office and when he goes > everybody around him goes as well, including Umbridge and Percy too. > Plus I think that JKR will have a line in HBP telling that Umbridge > is in Azkaban for what she has done. Alla: Not that I don't like your scenario, but it sounds a bit too optimistic from what I understand. Yes, we know that Fudge will flee, but people around him? I am not so sure. Especially in light of the revelation that Arthur is not the next Minister (I hope that he at least be one at the end). How many of the good guys do we know who seem to be realistic candidates? I will be delighted to see Umbridge in Azkaban, but again - not keeping my hopes up. I think that MoM enters a very dark page of its history and as many suggested Lucius Malfoy is a very possible candidate for next Minister (don't know how he will escape Azkaban though). I am notexcluding Umbridge either, unfortunately From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Jul 27 22:06:39 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:06:39 -0000 Subject: Snape responsible? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107914 > Pippin: > > If Hogwarts teachers could be sacked mid-year without evidence of misconduct, Umbridge would have done it. What evidence did they have? Snape did not see Quirrell on his way to the 3rd floor corridor. He could not prove that Quirrell was hexing the broom. Harry and Hermione told Hagrid they thought *Snape* had done it. Raising the issue would have got Snape sacked, not Quirrell. > > > SSSusan: > Snape may not have had proof about Quirrell, but he had suspicions; otherwise the "where your loyalties lie" speech wouldn't have happened. I'm just asking why Snape went SOLO in his plan to watch over Quirrell. Why didn't he tell DD all this? Or do you think DD *did* know about Snape's concerns and didn't do any investigating?< Pippin: I see I didn't make myself clear. I do think Dumbledore knew about Snape's concerns, and did investigate, did protect Harry, but didn't turn up anything that would convince the Ministry or the Board of Governors. Do you think it was an accident that Firenze turned up just in time to save Harry in the forest? Every time Harry goes into the forest he has the feeling he's being watched...why do you think that is? As far as we know Quirrell did not make another attempt on Harry's life or try to steal the stone again until the end of term, so there was no opportunity to get evidence against him. Dumbledore seems to have known about Harry's scar hurting but that wouldn't prove anything--at least it didn't in GoF. SSSusan: > Why would DD have believed what H/R/H *thought*, rather than what Snape *said*? And why wouldn't Snape have just told the truth: that Quirrel (or *someone*, if he was not sure it was Q.) was hexing Harry's broom? I can't imagine that DD would doubt Snape. After all, he's always saying, "I trust Severus Snape."< Pippin: The question is not whether DD would believe Snape over Harry and Hermione but whether anyone else would. The BoG is under the sway of Lucius Malfoy at this point in the story. Do you really think a formal investigation would have turned out in any desirable way? I can see Lucius suavely offering to protect the Stone in Malfoy Manor, can't you? Pippin From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Jul 27 22:44:09 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:44:09 -0000 Subject: How should Harry deal with Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107916 Alla: > > But I think that Pippin's suggestion painted a bit different reaction and more to the side of acknowledgement that Snape... well, is OK guy. :o)(Pippin, correct me, if I am wrong, please) Pippin: Goodness me, no, no,no, Snape is not OK! Snape is damaged. He is so damaged he may never get any better. He has done evil, and I think we will be shocked when we find out how much. So what? Is Harry so perfect that he deserves to inhabit a world of perfect people? I don't think so. But Snape has not done as much damage to Harry as Harry thinks, IMO. Snape's not okay, but he's not a dementor either. He's like a boggart dementor. Aside from a jar of cockroaches, Snape has never used any weapon against Harry except Harry's own fear of being found unworthy. I suggest that Harry take that weapon away from him. Or Harry could decide to wait till Snape gets better before finding a way to deal with him. But I think he could wait a very long time. Of course Harry has a right to expect all adults to be more emotionally stable and healthy than he is...or does he? Is that just another prejudice? Pippin From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 27 23:52:03 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 23:52:03 -0000 Subject: Snape responsible? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107917 Pippin, earlier: >>> If Hogwarts teachers could be sacked mid-year without evidence of misconduct, Umbridge would have done it. What evidence did they have? Snape did not see Quirrell on his way to the 3rd floor corridor. He could not prove that Quirrell was hexing the broom. Harry and Hermione told Hagrid they thought *Snape* had done it. Raising the issue would have got Snape sacked, not Quirrell.<<< SSSusan then said: >> Snape may not have had proof about Quirrell, but he had suspicions; otherwise the "where your loyalties lie" speech wouldn't have happened. I'm just asking why Snape went SOLO in his plan to watch over Quirrell. Why didn't he tell DD all this? Or do you think DD *did* know about Snape's concerns and didn't do any investigating?<< Pippin responded: > I see I didn't make myself clear. I do think Dumbledore knew > about Snape's concerns, and did investigate, did protect Harry, > but didn't turn up anything that would convince the Ministry or > the Board of Governors. > > Do you think it was an accident that Firenze turned up > just in time to save Harry in the forest? Every time Harry goes > into the forest he has the feeling he's being watched...why do you > think that is? > > As far as we know Quirrell did not make another attempt on > Harry's life or try to steal the stone again until the end of > term, so there was no opportunity to get evidence against him. > Dumbledore seems to have known about Harry's scar hurting > but that wouldn't prove anything--at least it didn't in GoF. SSSusan previously: >> Why would DD have believed what H/R/H *thought*, rather than what Snape *said*? And why wouldn't Snape have just told the truth: that Quirrel (or *someone*, if he was not sure it was Q.) was hexing Harry's broom? I can't imagine that DD would doubt Snape. After all, he's always saying, "I trust Severus Snape."<< Pippin responded: > The question is not whether DD would believe Snape over Harry > and Hermione but whether anyone else would. The BoG is > under the sway of Lucius Malfoy at this point in the story. Do you > really think a formal investigation would have turned out in any > desirable way? I can see Lucius suavely offering to protect the > Stone in Malfoy Manor, can't you? SSSusan now: I guess I'm not sure about the "do you really thinks" in here, because, well, I never said I *did* or *didn't* think any of this. I believe we were talking at cross purposes; I was talking about Snape not telling DD, and you are talking about DD not telling anyone outside Hogwarts, or its Board of Governors. I wasn't arguing with you previously, so much as trying to understand what you were saying to me. [Maybe my tone came across as argumentative (I hope not); in fact, I thought you'd misread me and I was curious what you were getting at.] How you've responded just now makes sense. I just wasn't convinced DD knew. That's why I asked if you thought Snape *had* told DD. Now that you point out that we never saw Q. going after the stone again 'til the end of the year and that we never saw him attacking Harry again 'til the end, I can see the strong possibility that maybe Snape *did* go to DD, and that Q. knew DD & Snape were watching him closely. That actually makes me feel much better about Snape. So even though we were talking about different things before, I think I get it now! Siriusly Snapey Susan From juli17 at aol.com Tue Jul 27 23:53:18 2004 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 19:53:18 EDT Subject: Lily's family Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107918 Meltowne wrote: > I think the HBP will turn out to be Harry's grandparent, forced into > hiding by Grindewald. > Cool idea, but hasn't JKR said explicitly that Harry has no living relatives besides Petunia? Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Jul 28 00:08:49 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:08:49 -0000 Subject: Snape's part in death of Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107919 > Neri: > Potioncat, you don't have an argument with me, you have an argument with Pippin: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/10778 1 > > Either it is the on-top-of-it-all, the-last-defender-of-Hogwarts > Snape, or it is sits-in-his-office-and-doesn't-know-bout-nothing > Snape. You can't have it both ways. >Now, if the Snape fans claim this is all Harry's limited and biased point-of- view, and want to pick canon inside out to prove that Snape is actually a rational and responsible man, well that's OK by me. It's actually a lot of fun. Please explain Snape's actions and timing in the above case.< Pippin: Isn't it one of the points of OOP that it is sometimes your duty to stay put, even if you know your allies are in danger? The delay is JKR's fault, not Snape's--her time line has some holes in it. What's unaccounted for is the time between five pm, when Harry has his vision, and the escape from the DADA office. Would it really take five hours to set up the diversion? I can't see why, but that's the way the canon crumbles. There may be a similar hole in the Ministry battle. Put the Order's arrival before 0100 and the battle seems to last inordinately long. Put it after 0100 and you have to explain what the Order or Snape were doing all that time. But I can account for three or four hours of Snape's time easily enough. 1700 -- Harry has his vision 1700-2200 The DA clears the corridors for a five minute window in the DADA office Harry speaks to Kreacher at Grimmauld Place Umbridge ambushes Harry Umbridge sends Draco for Snape Snape arrives and is put on probation for not supplying veritaserum to Umbridge Harry and Hermione leave with Umbridge 2200? --one hour before sunset -- Harry, Hermione and Umbridge enter the forest --people are still eating in the Great Hall (!?) --Snape contacts the Order for the first time 2210? --Ginny, Luna, Ron and Neville overpower the I-squad 2300? -- sunset -- Harry leaves the forest via thestral It took 50 minutes for Harry and Ron to walk from the edge of the forest to Aragog's lair in CoS, the same path taken by Harry and Hermione with Umbridge, so this accords approximately with my estimate of one hour in OOP. 2400? -- (the witching hour) Harry arrives at the Ministry. Can a Thestral travel 450 miles an hour? A Firebolt can accelerate to 175 mph in 10 seconds, presumably its top speed is even faster, and a thestral is faster still 0400? -- Harry returns to Hogwarts My answer to Neri's challenge needs to account in a logical, rational, non negligent way, for Snape's time. What was Snape doing? First he contacted the Order. My guess is he sent a portrait message from his quarters in the castle to Phineas in Dumbledore's office, and Phineas then contacted the Order. Snape could have Phineas check to see if Harry had contacted the Order. Sirius would be positive he hadn't--he didn't use the Mirror, did he? Kreacher would lie, if asked, even to Sirius himself. He's already had to punish himself for wounding Buckbeak, anyway. Snape does not yet have any reason to think that Harry is on his way to the Ministry. Snape is *not* going to try to explain the whole topsecret mindlink business to the Order members at second or third hand. Lupin's the only one who might understand what he was talking about. Besides the vision is *false*; who knows what Voldemort is up to? He's already set up one Order member who was caught breaking into the DOM. A rescue party would face the same danger, and as far as Snape knows there's nobody who needs rescuing. None of this would be instantaneous, so the remaining DA members would have time to overcome the Slytherins and escape the castle before Snape turned his attention back to what's going on in the DADA office. In GoF and OOP the Slytherins get hexed just after lunchtime, and are still hexed when the HEx arrives in London, so the scenario that Snape did nothing and did not find out what happened until the hexes wore off and the Slytherins freed themselves seems unlikely. But Snape had been put on probation and ordered to leave Umbridge's office. If he interfered again, he could be sacked and turned out of the castle. Snape would have approached with caution, as he did in the Shrieking Shack, disabling the stealth sensors, unlocking the door without benefit of Sirius's magic knife, and finally discovering the carnage within. He would see that Harry, the DA and Umbridge weren't there. Could we allow an hour for that? Depends on how good Snape is at housebreaking. He would have to dehex the Slytherins and/or get them to the Hospital Wing before they could tell him anything. That could take an hour or two all by itself. He might have to argue with Madame Pomfrey about whether they should be allowed to talk to him. Then he'd have to make sense of what they were saying. He'd have to pretend to be interested in the 'weapon' and not particularly interested in saving any Gryffindor skins, or it would look suspicious. The Slytherins know that Snape and Umbridge are now at odds, they know that Draco and Umbridge are not co-operating either, and they'll be trying to take advantage of the chaos in their clumsy and exasperating way. I imagine Snape wished he hadn't been telling Umbridge the truth about not having any veritaserum handy, and tried to use his less than Dumbledorean talents at legilimency to sort it all out. Eventually, Snape gathered that the kids went into the forest and that the Slytherins hadn't seen them come back. That would be when he grew worried. I'd guess that would be about the time Harry and co arrived in London. The thestrals are magical, and can fly even faster than Firebolts, There's plenty of time for the thestrals to get to the Ministry before Snape can deduce what happened. At once, Snape contacted the Order again, this time perhaps by Floo, saying that he believed Harry might have been lured to the Department of Mysteries by Voldemort. He requested that Sirius stay behind to inform Dumbledore, because if Harry did talk to someone at Grimmauld Place, Sirius was the one person it couldn't have been. Snape himself remained at Hogwarts, which was his responsibility. He wouldn't be Snape if he didn't take the opportunity to needle Sirius, but I'm not sure that has any bearing. "Sirius had risked everything, always, to see Harry, to help him..." Presumably the Order couldn't apparate directly to a secure area of the Ministry. They'd arrive in the hall of the fountain and have to travel down to the DoM, overpower any security the Death Eaters themselves had set up, and locate Harry, who was no longer in the Hall of Prophecy where they might logically expect him to be, but in the Death Chamber. Pippin From stargaz77 at aol.com Tue Jul 27 18:45:12 2004 From: stargaz77 at aol.com (celestina707) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 18:45:12 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's hold on Petunia [was Re: Lily's Family] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107920 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "celestina707" > wrote: > I am not so sure if magical > > protection was offered to protect Dudley and Petunia, perhaps only > > while Harry is staying at the Dursley household.But I am holding on > > to my theory that its not Lily's blood that is important in this > > story, only James and Harry's, and therefore protection while Harry > > was away from the Dursley household is moot since Harry isn't there. > > > Jen: I don't understand this point, Celestina, because we already > know Lily's blood is vitally important for Harry's protection. Do > you mean you think the Potter's bloodline will be important for the > *rest* of the story as opposed to Lily's origins (and thus Petunia > and Dudley's blood as well)? That could definitely be true. Please > point me to your theory on this--now I'm curious! Celestina: WOOPS!! Gosh leave it to me to leave an incomplete thought there!! Okay, we know how vitally important Lily's blood is to Harry's protection, it is what has kept him alive in all his encounters with V. What I was trying to say, and didn't, was this: its my theory that the reason V tried to kill James and Harry but not necessarily Lily, was because I feel that there is a geneology or blood link (going back to Gryffindor likely, I hope) that makes Harry the one that would have the power to vanquish V. I know this is incomplete at this point, because we know from OOTP that V doesn't know the complete prophecy (and I am wondering if we don't know the whole thing either). Now regading Lily. If the importance of killing James and Harry was to terminate the bloodline of the one who could defeat V, and to assure that if Harry died then James couldn't produce another offspring, then the killing of Lily wasn't necessary because she is of a different geneaology. Having said that, Lily's blood is vitally important to Harry's protection, and I truly believed it was sealed and intensified when she sacrificed her life to save Harry. But as far as her blood serving as protection to the Dursley's household, well I just feel that the Dursleys are no threat to V because Lily wasn't a direct threat to V. It was the Potters blood that was the threat. As JKR has told us virtually nothing about James's background so far in the storyline, I am assuming that the reason for this is because it is important to the outcome of the book and our final understanding of the V vs Harry plot, and she is withholding it because she didn't want to spring it on us too early in the series. Nevertheless, I do feel that as long as Harry is at the Durley household, that the Dursleys would be at risk. But I really liked that idea that Lily's protection would extend out to Petunia and Dudley as long as Harry was staying with them and that perhaps Dumbledore had a hand in this, and when Harry leaves for school, that the protection is no longer necessary because he isn't there. Thanks for pointing out that glaring hole, and giving me the chance to explain myself further. Sometimes I am trying to get a thought out so quickly I forget to explain myself fully! Celestina From yahoogroups at catbirdco.us Tue Jul 27 21:33:30 2004 From: yahoogroups at catbirdco.us (Michal) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 14:33:30 -0700 Subject: Dumbledore's hold on Petunia [was Re: Lily's Family] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20040727142930.033f3010@mail.catbirdco.us> No: HPFGUIDX 107921 Could it be that Petunia is a squib (or not) and that Dudley is a wizard? Could Dumbledore have negotiated Harry's care in exchange for suppressing Dudley's magical abilities? If Petunia hates everything magical, wouldn't she want to "squash" it out of Dudley? And wouldn't Dudley be a great addition to the Draco/Crabbe/Goyle team? "Michal" From chinaskinotes at sbcglobal.net Tue Jul 27 21:45:44 2004 From: chinaskinotes at sbcglobal.net (chinaskisnotes) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 21:45:44 -0000 Subject: JKR website update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107922 Luna: > What else does Harry discover in Chamber? He learns about the existence of house elves and Slytherin's chamber of secrets, about Fawkes, about the diary and Lucius Malfoy, also about Lucius having a lot of dark objects that he > wants to keep secret. He learns that Ginny has a crush on him and > that the Hat hides Gryffindor's sword. Other ideas to add to this > list? Somewhat related to discoveries from CoS- I always found it interesting *how* Harry discovers he's a Parseltongue- though Malfoy casts the spell, it was Snape that told him which spell to cast, and Snape is not particularily surprised by Harry's ability, American version CoS, pg 195, Snape's look is "shrewd and calculating"- not aghast and frightened like everyone else. I'm not sure if Parseltongue is what JKR is indicating, but I find it interesting anyway. Perhaps it can add fuel to Snape speculations ;) chinaski From yahoogroups at catbirdco.us Tue Jul 27 22:17:43 2004 From: yahoogroups at catbirdco.us (Michal) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:17:43 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "Alas", how about Umbridge as new MoM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20040727151538.033eaaf0@mail.catbirdco.us> No: HPFGUIDX 107923 >Alla: >Yes, we know that Fudge will flee, How do we know this? I don't find any canon to support it. "Michal" From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Tue Jul 27 22:34:49 2004 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:34:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: How should Harry deal with Snape In-Reply-To: <20040727192333.LMVA9654.lakermmtao04.cox.net@smtp.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <20040727223449.33104.qmail@web50106.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107924 > DZEYTOUN: Oh dear, I hope things don't get this insipid. After > five years of > abuse Harry decides to take a page out of "An Officer and a > Gentleman." > > Snape has been the one who has abused Harry consistently for five > years. It is > to *Snape* that the consequences and changes must come home to > roost, *not* to Harry. Some people seem to have the idea that for Harry to apologize for something he did wrong (snoop in the Pensieve) is some kind of surrender or lowering of himself or something basically shameful and humiliating. For others of us, apologizing is a way for Harry to right a balance and retreive the moral high ground that he has (usually) occupied with Snape. Magda __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From vitollo at budget.net Tue Jul 27 22:42:25 2004 From: vitollo at budget.net (nyrae22) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:42:25 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's hold on Petunia [was Re: Lily's Family] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107925 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pcaehill2" wrote: > > Pam responds: > Exactly, re: no astounding compassion from the Dursley's, and that > they wouldn't give Harry the time of day if something wasn't in it > for them. But Vernon doesn't know what's in it for them, only > Petunia seems to know this in OoP, and even then I'm not sure it's > compassion that she is showing--I think that if the danger was only > to Harry, she might have let Vernon chuck him out. I dont think she is showing compasion at all. It is not like her. There has to be something in it for her. nyrae22 From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 28 00:16:14 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:16:14 -0000 Subject: How should Harry deal with Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107926 > Pippin: > > Goodness me, no, no,no, Snape is not OK! Snape is damaged. > He is so damaged he may never get any better. He has done > evil, and I think we will be shocked when we find out how much. > So what? Is Harry so perfect that he deserves to inhabit a world > of perfect people? I don't think so. Alla: Oh, I am glad to read that and sorry for misreading you, but of course we will have to disagree on how Harry deserves to be treated by a teacher. :) Pippin: Of course Harry has a right to expect all adults to be > more emotionally stable and healthy than he is...or does he? Is > that just another prejudice? > Alla: He has a right to be treated fairly as "Harry" not "James". No, I don't think this relates to prejudice in any way, but of course it will take half of the fun away from the story. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 28 00:20:19 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:20:19 -0000 Subject: "Alas", how about Umbridge as new MoM In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.0.20040727151538.033eaaf0@mail.catbirdco.us> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107927 > >Alla: > >Yes, we know that Fudge will flee, > Michal: > How do we know this? I don't find any canon to support it. > Alla: Sorry, from newspaper on JKR's website From snow15145 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 28 00:33:58 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:33:58 -0000 Subject: PRINCE, BLOOD,HALF Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107928 I really liked something, Jen Reese, had said a short time after we found out the name of the sixth book. Instead of half blood prince maybe it is the "prince of the half bloods". When I saw this statement I immediately thought yes, this is the best title for a background book of all the characters, most of which are half blood. But who then would be best suited for the position as the prince of the half bloods? Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore. Where did a common muggle-type name such as Brian come from? It appears that at some point in time Albus's bloodline may have been tainted with the disgraceful muggle blood, which would make Albus himself a half blood. I do feel that Albus is the heir of Godric Griffindore who could be seen as the king to Albus's possible prince status. Slytherin-full blood, Griffindore-half blood, Ravenclaw-possible squib parentage (seeing as she represents book knowledge), Hufflepuff- muggle born. Albus appears to be the savior of many who reside at the school under his protection like Hagrid who is half-giant or Lupin who is half blood and werewolf. Albus has also been called a muggle lover and has, unlike his fellows, followed the muggle news. Albus appears to be well versed in his muggle awareness, acceptance and protection for the half bloods who find comfort in the safe haven of his castle. Snow From gopotter2004 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 28 00:46:00 2004 From: gopotter2004 at yahoo.com (gopotter2004) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:46:00 -0000 Subject: OotP Prophecy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107929 Feel free to smash this thread if this has been brought up in this way... I looked through a lot of the recent posts, but goodness knows it's impossible to catch up on everything. The prophecy states that "neither can live while the other survives." Since Jk has said it was very intentionally worded, I feel there's a high probability that "survives" means more than "is alive"... For instance, if Harry sacrifices himself, and lives on in the memory of others, Voldemort will get trounced. Unfortunately for Harry, well, evil always seems to survive in the heart of someone... Could Draco do the dreadful deed and finish Harry off when we least expect it? Becky, who hopes she didn't ruffle too many feathers with her rant, seeing as she's just realized that this is one of her first posts as, gasp, an actual "grown-up!" From Zarleycat at aol.com Wed Jul 28 01:55:06 2004 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 01:55:06 -0000 Subject: How should Harry deal with Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107930 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mnaper2001" wrote: > Dzeytoun: > > > Sigh. I'm afraid the time for this is long gone. The fact is that > > these two have come to *hate* one another. Whoever is most at > fault > > (for my money it's undeniably Snape, but choose who you please), > > we're well past the "ignoring each other" stage. This might have > > been a good option at anytime before book five. Now emotions have > > reached such a nadir that I just don't see it as a possibility. > > Remember, we aren't just talking about sarcastic comments anymore. > > Harry feels that Snape is complicit in the death of the only > parental > > figure Harry has ever known. You don't swallow that and go on. > > Ally: > > I don't know. Harry is the hero and I think he's on course to be > more emotionally mature and developed than Snape if for no other > reason than his name is on the book titles. If the relationship > changes for the better, it will be because Harry changes his mind > about or his approach to Snape. > > I keep thinking we'll see more of Lily's personality in Harry as he > gets older. I know he was very angry at Snape at the end of OOTP, > but I wouldn't be surprised if something else happens - like the > pensieve and seeing into Snape's head during occlumency - that gives > Harry a glimpse of Snape that softens his perspective somewhat. Or > maybe just with the passage of time he'll realize that his anger at > Snape was really just his own misdirected sense of guilt. > > Snape is emotionally stunted and JKR obviously likes him that way. > I'd like to see him evolve somewhat, but that's not a priority for > her. Aside from Harry, JKR seems content to let most her characters > remain as "types" rather than true "Characters" IMO - even Ron and > Hermione are basically cliches with good lines. But she reserves a > special place for Harry, so you can bet that if she plans for he and > Snape to come to any kind of working agreement, it will be Harry who > instigates it. Marianne: All the responders on this thread have had interesting things to say. I'm not going to repond to all of them, but I think Ally is right in the assumption that it will be Harry who will show the greater emotional maturity. There have been a number of people on the list who have huffed over Harry's angry blame of Snape for Sirius' death. Well, of course Snape is not directly to blame, but Harry is too emotional, too close to that death to look at it dispassionately at this point in time. I predict that at some point we will see Snape a nasty comment about Sirius' demise, and Harry will not let it get to him on an emotional level. I think that Harry will go a long way towards showing his maturity when he admits to himself that his own actions played a part in Sirius' death, and that Sirius' own nature also entered into the equation. Maybe it's not realistic to expect a 16- or 17-year-old kid to act at this level of maturity, but, since the series is about Harry (and not Snape) I fully expect that at some point Harry will show a greater level of emotional maturity than Snape. I will not be at all surprised that when Snape makes a disparaging remark about Sirius' death (whether to goad Harry or to test Harry's strength in not crumbling in the face of it) he will be confronted with a response from Harry that is much more mature and dignified than Snape expects, or, indeed that Snape could ever hope to come close to expressing. Marianne From Zarleycat at aol.com Wed Jul 28 02:02:59 2004 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 02:02:59 -0000 Subject: "Alas", how about Umbridge as new MoM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107931 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brenda M." < > Bren now: > > But I think Lucius has slim chance of being a Ministry official now > that his lame 'I was Imperio-ed' excuse has proven to be false. But > yes, JKR's 'Alas' comment does take away chances that the new MoM > will be someone more opt for the job than Fudge. > > How about Umbridge? She's already the Senior Secretary of Ministry > (or some sort), won't be too much promotion for her! I shudder to > think that she will blood-quill Ministry officials who oppose her! > *shudder* > > Brenda I took the "alas" as more of a "poor, long-suffering, never gets enough money or respect Arthur." And he still won't get any of those things... And, that's fine by me. Suddenly having Arthur, as nice as he is, leap into the Minister's job would make absolutely no sense to me. He's in an out-of-the-mainstream position. He had no apparent influence. He has no patrons. Call me a cynic, but to effectively run a government, you have to have a lot of influence, a lot of markers to be able to call on, and, probably a lot of favors that you can grant or that you are owed. Arthur just doesn't fit the bill. And I think Umbridge is pretty much toast at this point. My vote goes to Amelia Bones. Marianne From hpfgu_elves at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 28 02:29:24 2004 From: hpfgu_elves at yahoo.co.uk (hpfgu_elves) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 02:29:24 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Posting Rule Change - No Movie Discussion on Main List Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107932 Attention, please! We briefly interrupt the midsummer posting spree to announce a change to the HPFGU posting rules: Due to the recent very high message volumes on the main list, and the inevitable tendency of any discussion referencing the Warner Bros. Harry Potter films to drift off-topic, the elves have decided to reinstate the old rule banning discussion of the films on the main list, effective immediately. If you wish to post about the films, even if you are using them as support for a book-related point, please direct your post to the Movie list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Movie The elves are looking at other suggestions regarding our high posting volume and message quality. We welcome your thoughts, and want to remind everyone that we have a separate Feedback list for discussion of list policy issues: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Feedback Thank you for your cooperation, and carry on with your posting! The HPFGU List Elves From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Wed Jul 28 02:41:05 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 02:41:05 -0000 Subject: Snape's part in death of Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107933 Asian_lovr2 wrote: Approximately 450 miles from my best guess location of Hogwarts in an unpopulated area of the highlands to central London. Two hours travel time seems excessive based on my interpretation of the fight. One hours seems closer to my read. Neri now: Steve, I'm afraid such a short flight might create a problem with in your timeline, as we'll see in a minute. Asian_lovr2: As a side note, Today July 27 Begin civil twilight 5:19 a.m. End civil twilight 9:19 p.m. Neri again: Thanks. I already have even more accurate figures. According to: http://www.onlineweather.com/v4/uk/sun/Edinburgh.html#June sunrise would be at about 4:30 am and sundown at 10:00 pm. So I'll assume Harry and Co took flight from the forest at about 10:00 pm because JKR describes twilight falling soon after they take off (Ch. 34). I'll also assume Harry is sent back to DD's office at about 4:00 am, because he can see the first light of dawn on the horizon through DD's window (Ch. 37). Asian_lovr2: At that point, Harry believe Sirius has been taken to the Ministry by Voldemort. Snape intent is to verify that Sirius is at Grimmauld Place which he does. However, we don't know the exact contents of that conversation. Remember at this time it's about 6pm; still daylight, and the Ministry is probably still occupied, so the whole idea is pretty far fetched. Neri: Actually my estimation would be more like 8pm. We know it was dinner when Harry, Hermione and Umbridge left for the forest, and "the sun was falling towards the tops of the trees" (Ch. 33) Asian_lovr2: Snape may very well have relayed to Lupin and Sirius that Harry thought Sirius was at the Ministry of Magic. Neri: Big objection here. We'll get to that later. Asian_lovr2: That would not have been cause for anyone to rush off and do anything. The logical next step would have been to simply tell Harry that Sirius was safe. Unfortunately, since Harry was in Umbridge and the I-Squad's custody, So, we have students in the custody of an armed teacher and high ministry official, even though they may be in the woods, that's not necessarily cause for panic or drastic action. So... he waits. Neri: Pity you don't supply any times in your timeline. May I assume you mean this happens at about 9:00 pm? Only an hour after UHH left for the Forest (I'm being generous to Snape here). Asian_lovr2: Certainly, after an hour he would start to wonder and worry, but still not time to panic yet. Neri: I add another hour, so it's now 10:00 pm. Harry and Co. are taking off from the forest to London. Asian_lovr2: Not much later, he would become concerned enough to contact the Order with his suspicion that Harry would attempt to travel to London, Neri: So it's now about 10:30 pm, "only" 2.5 hrs after UHH had left for the forest. Snape finally notified the Order the second time. But Harry and Co. are still in the air on their way to London (you suggested 1 hr travel time). I think you begin to see the problem. Asian_lovr2: then he went to search for Harry. If Harry wasn't found, and Snape knew Harry's friends entered the woods to aid Harry, and they too could not be found. Now it's time to panic. So, he marshals the troops and sends them off to the Ministry to rescue Harry and friends if need be. Neri: Now you got it slightly wrong: ---------------------------------------------- OotP, Ch. 37: 'When, however, you did not return from your trip into the Forest with Dolores Umbridge, Professor Snape grew worried that you still believed Sirius to be a captive of Lord Voldemort's. He alerted certain Order members at once.' Dumbledore heaved a great sigh and continued, 'Alastor Moody, Nymphadora Tonks, Kingsley Shacklebolt and Remus Lupin were at Headquarters when he made contact. All agreed to go to your aid at once. ----------------------------------------------- Canon is quite clear here. The Order members decided to go "at once" after Snape contacted them the second time. Asian_lovr2: I see no problem with that timeline. Neri: I see two big problems. First, if Snape notified HQ the second time around 10:30, and they went "at once" to the DoM (give them 30 minutes for the argument with Sirius and delegating HQ to Kreacher), and they travel to the MoM almost instantaneously (aparating or floo), then they are there at 11:00. That's exactly in time to meet Harry and Co. who are just landing. So in fact your timeline demonstrates exactly how easily Snape could have prevented the whole battle and Sirius' death if he had only done things RIGHT. Since we know things were not right, the second problem with your timeline is that Harry is sent back to DD's office at about 4:00 am. So if the Order members got to the DoM at 11:00 pm it means the time they fought the DE's, Sirius death and the battle with Voldy took together 5 hrs. This seems waaaay too long. Here is a much more reasonable timeline. I noted the parts that are canon: 7:00 pm - Umbridge catches Harry in her office. 7:30 pm - Harry tells Snape "he got Padfoot at the place were it's hidden". 8:00 pm - Umbridge, Harry and Hermione go to the forest. Harry hears the sounds of dinner in the great hall (canon). At the same time, Snape is contacting the Order for the first time. 8:15 pm - before Snape is back from talking with HQ, Ron and Co break away and run after UHH. 9:15 pm - UHH encounter the centaurs. 9:30 pm - Ron and Co find Harry and Hermione in the forest. 10:00 pm - Twilight falls as Harry and Co take off to London (canon!). 11:30 pm ? Harry and Co land near the MoM entrance (travel time 1:30 hrs) Midnight (very appropriate!) ? Harry and Co arrive at the DoM. 1:00 am ? Harry and Co had finally finished touring the DoM. Harry takes the Prophecy. 2:00 am - The Order members break into the death room and battle with the DEs. 2:30 am ? DD appears in the death room. Sirius dies. 3:00 am - The Voldy vs DD match. 4:00 am ? DD sends Harry to his office by Portkey. Harry sees the first light of dawn from the office window (canon). Being generous to Snape (again) I assume that, from the minute Snape contacted HQ the second time, it took the Order members a whole hour to get to the DoM (time for argument with Sirius, Delegating HQ to Kreacher, apparating in the MoM, finding Harry and Co in the death room). According to my timeline they got there at 2:00 am, so Snape contacted HQ the second time only at 1:00 am. This means he waited whole 5 hours since UHH went to the forest. Out of this, almost 3 hrs are after dark. If you want to decrease this extremely irresponsible waiting time, you must allocate more time to the Order fighting the DEs and DD fighting Voldy, because Harry must arrive at DD office at 4:00 (canon!). I gave them 2 hrs for these two battles together. Reading the description in the book, I can't imagine it took more than 3 hrs. With a LOT of stretching we might get Snape to wait "only" 4 hrs. Now back to the question: did Snape tell the Order anything the first time he contacted them? Asian_lovr2: We don't know that happened or what was said when Snape first contacted Sirius, but I doubt that it went like this - Snape: Lupin! Lupin! It's important that I speak with Sirius immediately. Lupin: He's here, I'll run and get him. Sirius (comes running): What! What is it! What's happened? Snape: Nothing. ...bye. Neri: Canon is very succinct at this point: ------------------------------------------- OotP, Ch. 37 Professor Snape found that Sirius was alive and safe in Grimmauld Place. -------------------------------------------- Everything else, such as your suggestion that Snape told them about Harry having a vision of Sirius in the DoM, is speculation. My guess of the conversation is that Snape would not even talk to Sirius: Snape: Lupin! Is Black there? Lupin: Good evening Severus. Sirius is upstairs tending to Buckbeak. Snape: Are you absolutely sure he's there? Lupin: Yes. Do you want to talk with him? Snape (sneering): Not really. Just checking (hangs up). Asian_lovr2: Logically, Snape would give them a basic explanation. But as I said before, no one would see this a cause for panic. Especially when Harry was currently in Umbridge's custody, and not in a position to take any rash actions. Neri: "Logically" for us and every reasonable person, but not for Snape. Your speculation that Snape gave HQ "a basic explanation" doesn't seem likely. Sirius would have been very worried about Harry in such a case. He would have been afraid that Harry might be possessed by Voldemort. Quite enough reason for panic, I would think, especially as DD is not in Hogwarts to look after Harry. Sirius would have demanded to know EXACTLY what's going on with Harry, especially when hearing that he is held by Umbridge. Lupin would have told Snape to find out and get back to them with an answer ASAP, certainly not after 5 hrs (can you imagine Sirius sits quietly and waiting 5 hrs for a word from Snape?). If they indeed demanded this and Snape didn't get back to them immediately, then he is even less responsible than I think he is. Had Snape got back to them immediately explaining that Harry was taken to the forest by Umbridge, Sirius would have at once volunteered to apparate to the forest with a broom and track them (he knew the Forbidden Forest very well). Lupin would have probably gone with him, and they had then almost two full hours to find Harry and Co before they took off to London. In the meantime the paranoid Moody would have surely, just in case, increased the alert level of the watch on the MoM, add more guards, and probably look for DD to tell him that Harry might be possessed (at that time he had more than 4 hrs to find DD before Harry enter the DoM). DD would have then added 2+2 and get the correct answer. The whole tragedy could have been prevented VERY easily. All was missing was just a tiny bit of responsibility. Neri From drednort at alphalink.com.au Wed Jul 28 02:48:15 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:48:15 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's part in death of Sirius In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4107A08F.18413.E66843@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 107934 On 28 Jul 2004 at 2:41, nkafkafi wrote: > Neri again: > Thanks. I already have even more accurate figures. According to: > http://www.onlineweather.com/v4/uk/sun/Edinburgh.html#June > sunrise would be at about 4:30 am and sundown at 10:00 pm. So I'll > assume Harry and Co took flight from the forest at about 10:00 pm > because JKR describes twilight falling soon after they take off (Ch. > 34). I'll also assume Harry is sent back to DD's office at about 4:00 > am, because he can see the first light of dawn on the horizon through > DD's window (Ch. 37). Please note, just for the record in having discussions like this, I have the ability to quickly generate accurate times for sunrise, sunset, moonrise, moonset, moonphase, planetary locations... - basically a whole range of astronomical data for any location and any date, and I've made and am making again, a standing offer to generate any and all of this data necessary for any HPFGU discussion - so if anyone wants precise times, etc, just give me the details. It's not hard to do - it's just because I'm a keen amateur astronomer, I already have everything set up to do these things. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From McGregorMax at ec.rr.com Wed Jul 28 03:22:55 2004 From: McGregorMax at ec.rr.com (mcmaxslb) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 03:22:55 -0000 Subject: "Alas", how about Umbridge as new MoM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107935 --- Alla wrote: >> Yes, we know that Fudge will flee, but people around him? I am not so sure. The new Minister will want his/her own people close to them and not people who were with Fudge. They'll either be canned or transferred to departments were they will have no power. McMax. From hunibuni22 at webtv.net Wed Jul 28 04:45:11 2004 From: hunibuni22 at webtv.net (tjbailey24) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 04:45:11 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's hold on Petunia [was Re: Lily's Family] In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.0.20040727142930.033f3010@mail.catbirdco.us> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107937 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Michal wrote: > Could it be that Petunia is a squib (or not) and that Dudley is a wizard? > Could Dumbledore have negotiated Harry's care in exchange for suppressing > Dudley's magical abilities? If Petunia hates everything magical, wouldn't > she want to "squash" it out of Dudley? > > And wouldn't Dudley be a great addition to the Draco/Crabbe/Goyle > team? > > "Michal" Tara replies: Fabulous idea! I have thought it a possibility that Dudley is the HBP. Yes, you're all shocked and horrified, I know! So am I! However, the thought came to me the other day. To me HBP is about lineage, not royalty. I have spent many a day wondering about Harry and who his descendants are. We know his mother came from muggle parents... which means simply that they were non magic folk.. that doesn't mean wizardry wasn't in their blood at ALL. Maybe the Evans' had been expecting a witch to pop up somewhere in the family tree.. maybe they were disappointed in Petunia that she was not a witch, which would account for all the hard feelings she had toward Lily (and now Harry). What if the magical "blood" skipped Petunia, but was found in Dudley? Certainly, he would be a half blood if there ever was one!! What if the Evans' were descendants of someone great, someone like Godric Gryfinndor? An heir, hence the title of prince, so to speak. I would think this all a load of hogwash except for Dudley's dementor attack.. he had a very real experience with them.. very much like other wizards (whereas humans only feel depressed, I think). To have such an experience, he must have some horrible memory of some kind. Maybe its this "suppressing" he remembers.. maybe its his father screaming his head off when Dudly accidently flies his tricycle across Privet drive at age 5.. who knows! Its just another theory to add to the long list of the HBP, I suppose! From luzzatto at via-rs.net Wed Jul 28 02:25:31 2004 From: luzzatto at via-rs.net (MamiBunny) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 23:25:31 -0300 Subject: HBP Clues Message-ID: <002e01c4744a$287ed860$2201a8c0@mami> No: HPFGUIDX 107938 MamiBunny: I want to remind everyone of what JKR wrote on her website about the relationship between HBP and CoS, which I have transcribed below: JKR: <<'The Half-Blood Prince' might be described as a strand of the overall plot. That strand could be used in a whole variety of ways and back in 1997 ***I considered weaving it into the story of 'Chamber'. It really didn't fit there, though;*** it was not part of the story of the basilisk and Riddle's diary, and before long I accepted that ***it would be better to do it justice in book six.*** I clung to the title for a while, even though ***all trace of the 'Prince' storyline had disappeared***, because I liked it so much (yes, I really like this title!). I re-christened book two 'Chamber of Secrets' when I started the second draft.">> (end of transcription, emphasis is mine). MamiBunny: Also on the website is information about Dean Thomas's background. JKR: <<"Dean is from what he always thought was a pure Muggle background. He has been raised by his mother and his stepfather; his father walked out on the family when Dean was very young. ***He has a very happy home life, with a number of half-brothers and sisters.*** Naturally when the letter came from Hogwarts Dean's mother wondered whether his father might have been a wizard, but nobody has ever discovered the truth: that Dean's father, who had never told his wife what he was because he wanted to protect her, got himself killed by Death Eaters when he refused to join them. The projected story had Dean discovering all this during his school career. I suppose in some ways ***I sacrificed Dean's voyage of discovery*** for Neville's, which is more important to the central plot.">> (end of second transcription, emphasis is mine). MamiBunny: I think it is possible that in book 6, Jo will bring Dean's story to the plot, and that the HBP could be Dean Thomas. My guess for the new Ministry of Magic is Dumbledore. He refused the office once, but now it is imperative to be able to count on the support of the MoM. So, no one would be better than him for the head of the Ministry. And for Harry's discovery in the Chamber, I'm guessing it's parseltongue. This power of Harry's that he shares with LV might be better used now, deliberately. Cheers, MamiBunny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From w1blade at acegroup.cc Wed Jul 28 02:54:50 2004 From: w1blade at acegroup.cc (w1blade) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 02:54:50 -0000 Subject: Who could be the "Half-Blood Prince"? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107939 After hearing the title of the 6th book, I got to wondering who the "prince" might be. The person that pops to my mind is Seamus Finnegan. I don't remember if it was in the book, or just in the movie, but when they are eating their first meal at Hoggwarts, Seamus pipes up with, "I'm half-n-half. Dad's a muggle, Mum's a witch. Bit of a nasty shock for him when he found out." Now I can only assume, that unless there is one that will be a first year in book six, it has to be Finnegan. Anyone with a different idea? "w1blade" From hunibuni22 at webtv.net Wed Jul 28 05:11:48 2004 From: hunibuni22 at webtv.net (tjbailey24) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 05:11:48 -0000 Subject: Percy's role in book 6 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107940 I'm anxious to see where Percy turns in book 6.. will he admit he was wrong, run home to his family and join the order? Will he be stubborn and arrogant, not admitting his mistakes, disbelieving in Dumbledore? Percy's character is a little frightening to me. He wants so much for power. I fear thet Voldemort could sway him. I don't like to think its possible, but it is probable. I believe I read that Voldemort supporters didn't think so much about good or evil, but instead of power. It is not a quote, but I'm sure I read it in CoS, PoA, or GoF. Forgive my unsupported remark.. but its an important one! Tara From dzeytoun at cox.net Wed Jul 28 04:11:36 2004 From: dzeytoun at cox.net (dzeytoun) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 04:11:36 -0000 Subject: How should Harry deal with Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107941 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat2001" wrote: > I predict that at some point we will see Snape a nasty comment about > Sirius' demise, and Harry will not let it get to him on an emotional > level. I think that Harry will go a long way towards showing his > maturity when he admits to himself that his own actions played a part > in Sirius' death, and that Sirius' own nature also entered into the > equation. > > Maybe it's not realistic to expect a 16- or 17-year-old kid to act at > this level of maturity, but, since the series is about Harry (and not > Snape) I fully expect that at some point Harry will show a greater > level of emotional maturity than Snape. I will not be at all > surprised that when Snape makes a disparaging remark about Sirius' > death (whether to goad Harry or to test Harry's strength in not > crumbling in the face of it) he will be confronted with a response > from Harry that is much more mature and dignified than Snape expects, > or, indeed that Snape could ever hope to come close to expressing. And of course, we have driven this debate to a polarity (as we always do). It is entirely possible that JKR will craft an ending to this that will satisfy most of us (i.e. that will allow Harry to take the initiative through greater maturity BUT will also allow for Snape's sins to come home to roost). For instance, imagine Snape says something disparaging about Sirius at an Order meeting or some such and Harry responds coldly with something like "That is all very well, Professor, but we need to focus on the present. I am here to do that, and I hope you are as well." Snape would then have the choice of accepting the opening with however much ill-grace but, being Snape, would probably blow up and thus humiliate himself in front of the entire Order (or whoever). That would, of course, only make Snape more enraged. But I think that the potions master is largely beyond redemption (at least in this regard). Besides, I also think it's almost a given that he won't survive the series in any case. Dzeytoun From swirskyr at rogers.com Wed Jul 28 04:13:29 2004 From: swirskyr at rogers.com (Rachel) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 04:13:29 -0000 Subject: Cauldrons Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107942 My husband and I are rereading the books right now and thought of something that in my years on this list I do not think I have ever seen discussed. (If I am wrong I appologize, but I do try to keep up with the vast volume of messages on this list). Cauldrons in general seem to keep comming up. I know that in the wizarding world they are common household items, but they do seem to come up a little bit more than average "pots and pans". There are the obvious potion mixing cauldrons (in potions class, and in the rebirthing scene,) but how about the others? Mundugus was off buying cauldrons. The entrance to Diagon Alley is The Leaky Cauldron. Percy is studying Leaky Cauldrons. My husband has wondered if there is some connection between the pub TLC and Percey's report. Is Fudge perhaps working on finding a way to close the gaps between the wizarding and muggle worlds (thus efectively stopping the "problem" of TLC)? This would certianly add weight to the ESE! Fudge theory. Anyhow, it was just a thought. Rachel From dzeytoun at cox.net Wed Jul 28 04:19:40 2004 From: dzeytoun at cox.net (dzeytoun) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 04:19:40 -0000 Subject: Harry's Cold Anger (was RE: How should Harry deal with Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107943 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > > If you're right that if Harry masters himself by controlling his > outbursts but becomes only colder, harder, more rage-filled inside, > more like SNAPE...then I wonder... would that help him in the end if > he needed to use the AK against Voldy? Or would that just make > him "not Harry"? I wouldn't want that. > > Well, it's all interesting, and we've probably gone 'round & 'round > as far as we can go. My hunch is still that Harry will find a way, > eventually, of coming to terms w/ Snape because he'll be so focused > on the mission at hand. And I think he'll manage to do it *without* > turning into another Snape. BUT we shall see! You know, I am beginning to wonder if there is not a main message of the series hidden here somewhere. We have speculated about whether Harry will have to wrestle with the Dark. Well, the Dark has many faces, Voldemort's is only one, while Snape's is another. Whether or not Snape is an evil person (and I think he is in a very fundamental way), he is undeniably TWISTED by evil. I have a hard time imagining Harry ever becoming a psychotic, sociopathic murderer like Voldemort. I have a much easier time seeing him becoming something akin to Snape. Perhaps not as nasty, but still cold, withdrawn, and filled with icy anger. After all, they are already much more alike than either one likes to admit. It may be that, when all is said and done, the real battle will end up being something other than what we think it is. We have made a great deal out of the power of love and how Harry has to keep from becoming like Voldemort. Perhaps, just perhaps, that is a blind. Maybe the real danger, and the real battle Harry must fight, is not becoming Voldemort, but becoming Snape. Dzeytoun From dzeytoun at cox.net Wed Jul 28 04:20:44 2004 From: dzeytoun at cox.net (dzeytoun) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 04:20:44 -0000 Subject: Harry's Cold Anger (was RE: How should Harry deal with Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107944 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > > If you're right that if Harry masters himself by controlling his > outbursts but becomes only colder, harder, more rage-filled inside, > more like SNAPE...then I wonder... would that help him in the end if > he needed to use the AK against Voldy? Or would that just make > him "not Harry"? I wouldn't want that. > > Well, it's all interesting, and we've probably gone 'round & 'round > as far as we can go. My hunch is still that Harry will find a way, > eventually, of coming to terms w/ Snape because he'll be so focused > on the mission at hand. And I think he'll manage to do it *without* > turning into another Snape. BUT we shall see! You know, I am beginning to wonder if there is not a main message of the series hidden here somewhere. We have speculated about whether Harry will have to wrestle with the Dark. Well, the Dark has many faces, Voldemort's is only one, while Snape's is another. Whether or not Snape is an evil person (and I think he is in a very fundamental way), he is undeniably TWISTED by evil. I have a hard time imagining Harry ever becoming a psychotic, sociopathic murderer like Voldemort. I have a much easier time seeing him becoming something akin to Snape. Perhaps not as nasty, but still cold, withdrawn, and filled with icy anger. After all, they are already much more alike than either one likes to admit. It may be that, when all is said and done, the real battle will end up being something other than what we think it is. We have made a great deal out of the power of love and how Harry has to keep from becoming like Voldemort. Perhaps, just perhaps, that is a blind. Maybe the real danger, and the real battle Harry must fight, is not becoming Voldemort, but becoming Snape. Dzeytoun From hunibuni22 at webtv.net Wed Jul 28 05:21:57 2004 From: hunibuni22 at webtv.net (tjbailey24) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 05:21:57 -0000 Subject: HBP Clues In-Reply-To: <002e01c4744a$287ed860$2201a8c0@mami> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107945 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "MamiBunny" wrote: > MamiBunny: > I want to remind everyone of what JKR wrote on her website about the relationship between HBP and CoS, which I have transcribed below: > > > JKR: > <<'The Half-Blood Prince' might be described as a strand of the overall plot. That strand could be used in a whole variety of ways and back in 1997 ***I considered weaving it into the story of 'Chamber'. It really didn't fit there, though;*** it was not part of the story of the basilisk and Riddle's diary, and before long I accepted that ***it would be better to do it justice in book six.*** I clung to the title for a while, even though ***all trace of the 'Prince' storyline had disappeared***, because I liked it so much (yes, I really like this title!). I re-christened book two 'Chamber of Secrets' when I started the second draft.">> > > (end of transcription, emphasis is mine). > > > MamiBunny: > Also on the website is information about Dean Thomas's background. > > JKR: > <<"Dean is from what he always thought was a pure Muggle background. He has been raised by his mother and his stepfather; his father walked out on the family when Dean was very young. ***He has a very happy home life, with a number of half-brothers and sisters.*** Naturally when the letter came from Hogwarts Dean's mother wondered whether his father might have been a wizard, but nobody has ever discovered the truth: that Dean's father, who had never told his wife what he was because he wanted to protect her, got himself killed by Death Eaters when he refused to join them. The projected story had Dean discovering all this during his school career. I suppose in some ways ***I sacrificed Dean's voyage of discovery*** for Neville's, which is more important to the central plot.">> > (end of second transcription, emphasis is mine). > > MamiBunny: > I think it is possible that in book 6, Jo will bring Dean's story to the plot, and that the HBP could be Dean Thomas. > > My guess for the new Ministry of Magic is Dumbledore. He refused the office once, but now it is imperative to be able to count on the support of the MoM. So, no one would be better than him for the head of the Ministry. > > And for Harry's discovery in the Chamber, I'm guessing it's parseltongue. This power of Harry's that he shares with LV might be better used now, deliberately. > > > Cheers, > MamiBunny > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Tara replies: Isn't the section on Dean Thomas under "edits" on Jo's website? Why would she list all that under "edits" and then make the title of book 6 about him? I'm not ruling out anything, I'm just adding an opinion or two. Also, she said that she GAVE UP Dean's voyage, for Neville's which was much more important to the central plot... so wouldn't we then think Neville might be in the running for HBP? We don't know exactly where all the answers come from, but if he has a bigger part to play than his story in OoP, book 6 would be a good place to show it. Plus the term "gave up" Dean's voyage hints that it is in the past and not introduced into the series. From hunibuni22 at webtv.net Wed Jul 28 05:27:25 2004 From: hunibuni22 at webtv.net (tjbailey24) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 05:27:25 -0000 Subject: Cauldrons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107946 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Rachel" wrote: > My husband and I are rereading the books right now and thought of > something that in my years on this list I do not think I have ever > seen discussed. (If I am wrong I appologize, but I do try to keep up > with the vast volume of messages on this list). > > Cauldrons in general seem to keep comming up. I know that in the > wizarding world they are common household items, but they do seem to > come up a little bit more than average "pots and pans". > > There are the obvious potion mixing cauldrons (in potions class, and > in the rebirthing scene,) but how about the others? Mundugus was off > buying cauldrons. The entrance to Diagon Alley is The Leaky > Cauldron. Percy is studying Leaky Cauldrons. > > My husband has wondered if there is some connection between the pub > TLC and Percey's report. Is Fudge perhaps working on finding a way > to close the gaps between the wizarding and muggle worlds (thus > efectively stopping the "problem" of TLC)? This would certianly add > weight to the ESE! Fudge theory. > > Anyhow, it was just a thought. > > Rachel and quite a thought it is!! I wouldn't put anything past Fudge! What does ESE stand for though? Tara From idcre at imap2.asu.edu Wed Jul 28 05:29:50 2004 From: idcre at imap2.asu.edu (backstagemystic) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 05:29:50 -0000 Subject: Snape questions for JK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107947 Ally wrote: >>Actually, I think JKR has already refused to answer the question of whether Snape was in love with Lily - something that poured gasoline on the flames of all those people theorizing this (it does look a bit suspicious). I don't have the exact quote, but an interviewer asked her whether Snape was in love with Lily and her final answer was "I can't tell you."<< Ah, thanks for this. It might help those who are attending her reading to narrow-down their choice of questions. BM From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Wed Jul 28 05:30:56 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 05:30:56 -0000 Subject: "Alas", how about Umbridge as new MoM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107948 > Alla: >How many > of the good guys do we know who seem to be realistic candidates? > Antosha: Well, the doom-and-gloom party candidates (Malfoy and Umbridge) are pretty unsavory-- and unlikely in the short-term, since one is literally in prison and the other is both thoroughly disgraced and very closely tied to Fudge. So if Fudge goes, how about the wizard they wanted to draft BEFORE Fudge became Minister? Dumbledore. This would be a good move politically, but would also open up all sorts of possibilities. Also would mean that Hogwarts would be more vulnerable to attack, of course... From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed Jul 28 05:38:48 2004 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 01:38:48 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Arthur Weasley won Arthur Weasly will NOT be next Ministe... Message-ID: <146.2f3ff589.2e3895e8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107949 In a message dated 07/26/2004 19.08 Central Daylight Time, gopotter2004 at yahoo.com writes: > >So the question now is who will be? Someone we know already? Or a > >completely new character? It won't be DD as he has to remain at > >Hogwarts for the duration of the story. Who in the Ministry does > >that leave? Amelia Bones? Deloris Umbridge? (Heaven forbid!)....I'm > >just not coming up with any others right now...any thoughts? > > > >Cheers Mandy > I have one question. Why are we assuming that there WILL be a new MOM in the next 2 books. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From navarro198 at hotmail.com Wed Jul 28 05:40:37 2004 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 05:40:37 -0000 Subject: Snape's part in death of Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107950 Pippin: Snape is the *only* Order member left at Hogwarts. He *can't* leave. There are nine hundred ninety-nine other children at the school. Snape can't abandon them. What if Harry had been decoyed away so that Voldemort could attack Hogwarts and take the children hostage for the Prophecy? Neri: Do you mean that it wasn't her intention and she didn't do the math of the timeline from everybody's point of view? Potioncat: But still, I ask, does anything in canon indicate that Snape was delaying in JKR's mind? If he was, then I would think it will come up in Book 6 or 7. Neri: JKR's mind? There is perhaps not much indication that Snape was delaying in JKR's mind. OTOH there is also not much indication that, in JKR's mind, Snape is a responsible man who gives a fig about what happens to the blasted Potter, or to any Gryffindor. Bookworm: I honestly think that this is another case of JKR not plotting out the timeframe for the "extra" characters in these scenes. Snape's role is important, but he is in the background from Harry's point of view. As much as Harry dislikes Snape, I think if there were any reason for Harry to suspect him of having even the smallest bit of responsibility for Sirius' death, Harry would have been shouting it from the Astronomy Tower :-) I also believe that Snape took action as directly as he could, not necessarily for the safety of Harry or Sirius, but because he recognizes how serious a threat Voldemort is. Snape would have taken the actions he could [without revealing whatever secret we haven't learned about him yet ;-) ] to hinder Voldemort. Ravenclaw Bookworm From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Wed Jul 28 05:48:19 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 05:48:19 -0000 Subject: Snape's part in death of Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107951 Pippin: Isn't it one of the points of OOP that it is sometimes your duty to stay put, even if you know your allies are in danger? Neri: Ah, but is it? Pippin: The delay is JKR's fault, not Snape's--her time line has some holes in it. Neri: Yes, that's the ticket. If it's between JKR and Snape, then clearly it must be JKR who is at fault. Pippin: What's unaccounted for is the time between five pm, when Harry has his vision, and the escape from the DADA office. Would it really take five hours to set up the diversion? I can't see why, but that's the way the canon crumbles. Neri: I didn't understand why you think the escape from the DADA office was so late? What is the canon for it? In my timeline: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/107933 it is at 2000, which seems quite reasonable to me. Pippin: There may be a similar hole in the Ministry battle. Put the Order's arrival before 0100 and the battle seems to last inordinately long. Put it after 0100 and you have to explain what the Order or Snape were doing all that time. But I can account for three or four hours of Snape's time easily enough. 1700 -- Harry has his vision 1700-2200 The DA clears the corridors for a five minute window in the DADA office Harry speaks to Kreacher at Grimmauld Place Umbridge ambushes Harry Umbridge sends Draco for Snape Snape arrives and is put on probation for not supplying veritaserum to Umbridge Harry and Hermione leave with Umbridge 2200? --one hour before sunset -- Harry, Hermione and Umbridge enter the forest --people are still eating in the Great Hall (!?) --Snape contacts the Order for the first time 2210? --Ginny, Luna, Ron and Neville overpower the I-squad 2300? -- sunset -- Harry leaves the forest via thestral It took 50 minutes for Harry and Ron to walk from the edge of the forest to Aragog's lair in CoS, the same path taken by Harry and Hermione with Umbridge, so this accords approximately with my estimate of one hour in OOP. 2400? -- (the witching hour) Harry arrives at the Ministry. Can a Thestral travel 450 miles an hour? A Firebolt can accelerate to 175 mph in 10 seconds, presumably its top speed is even faster, and a thestral is faster still 0400? -- Harry returns to Hogwarts Neri: I like it how much our timelines are similar. I actually posted a bit after you, but I promise I didn't see your timeline before posting (it was a lot of work answering Steve). The main difference is that my time for Harry and Co leaving the forest is, I believe, more accurate: 2200, sunset time, as opposed to your 2300. This difference is countered by the difference in flight time, which is pretty arbitrary. And I still don't see why entering the Forest so late. Pippin: My answer to Neri's challenge needs to account in a logical, rational, non negligent way, for Snape's time. What was Snape doing? First he contacted the Order. My guess is he sent a portrait message from his quarters in the castle to Phineas in Dumbledore's office, and Phineas then contacted the Order. Snape could have Phineas check to see if Harry had contacted the Order. Sirius would be positive he hadn't--he didn't use the Mirror, did he? Kreacher would lie, if asked, even to Sirius himself. He's already had to punish himself for wounding Buckbeak, anyway. Snape does not yet have any reason to think that Harry is on his way to the Ministry. Snape is *not* going to try to explain the whole topsecret mindlink business to the Order members at second or third hand. Lupin's the only one who might understand what he was talking about. Besides the vision is *false*; who knows what Voldemort is up to? He's already set up one Order member who was caught breaking into the DOM. A rescue party would face the same danger, and as far as Snape knows there's nobody who needs rescuing. None of this would be instantaneous, so the remaining DA members would have time to overcome the Slytherins and escape the castle before Snape turned his attention back to what's going on in the DADA office. In GoF and OOP the Slytherins get hexed just after lunchtime, and are still hexed when the HEx arrives in London, so the scenario that Snape did nothing and did not find out what happened until the hexes wore off and the Slytherins freed themselves seems unlikely. But Snape had been put on probation and ordered to leave Umbridge's office. If he interfered again, he could be sacked and turned out of the castle. Snape would have approached with caution, as he did in the Shrieking Shack, disabling the stealth sensors, unlocking the door without benefit of Sirius's magic knife, and finally discovering the carnage within. He would see that Harry, the DA and Umbridge weren't there. Could we allow an hour for that? Depends on how good Snape is at housebreaking. Neri: I'm impressed by the level of detail, Pippin, but excuse me at this point: why would the door be locked at all? I'd assume Ron and Co left with so much hurry, I wouldn't be surprised if they left the door ajar. Pippin: He would have to dehex the Slytherins and/or get them to the Hospital Wing before they could tell him anything. That could take an hour or two all by itself. Neri: Pippin, I'm really surprised you are not familiar with this useful spell: ----------------------------------------------- GoF, Ch. 35 : Dumbledore forced the man's mouth open and poured three drops inside it. Then he pointed his wand at the mans chest and said, "Ennervate." Crouch's son opened his eyes ------------------------------------------------ So simple and quick. And Crouch Jr. was hit with "Stupefy", which is the same that Ron used on several of the I-Squad. And when DD does this spell, Snape is standing right beside him. Can you see our dear Severus failing to master it? (even if he has to train on poor Filch). In fact, the DEs must know that one too, because they recover so quickly after getting hit at the DoM battle. And Snape was a DE too. Pippin: He might have to argue with Madame Pomfrey about whether they should be allowed to talk to him. Then he'd have to make sense of what they were saying. He'd have to pretend to be interested in the 'weapon' and not particularly interested in saving any Gryffindor skins, or it would look suspicious. Presumably the Order couldn't apparate directly to a secure area of the Ministry. They'd arrive in the hall of the fountain and have to travel down to the DoM, overpower any security the Death Eaters themselves had set up, and locate Harry, who was no longer in the Hall of Prophecy where they might logically expect him to be, but in the Death Chamber. Neri: So what you did is basically this: You delayed going into the forest to 2200, which is sunset time according to http://www.onlineweather.com/v4/uk/sun/Edinburgh.html#June while JKR writes that at that time "the sun was falling towards the tops of the trees". 2200 also seems awfully late for dinner, which we know was also held at the time Harry was leaving for the forest. This delay enables you to shave 2 hrs from the period Snape has to account for, relative to my time of 2000, which IMO is much more reasonable. Regarding the other end of this period, the time the Order members made it to the DoM, you are a bit vague, but I think your reasoning is close to mine. What was left of the period you had to account for, you filled mainly with an activity that can be replaced by a simple and instantaneous spell. Looking at this again, I don't think JKR has any holes in her timeline. In fact, the more I read the canon, the more I am convinced her timing is carefully planned. I would not be surprised if she actually looked at the same sunrise/sundown table I cited above. While not actually naming the hours, she gives us quite enough consistent detail to convict our poor Severus with nearly criminal negligence. I know, she's generally not very good with numbers and times, but I think in this case it is not she who is at fault. It's Snape. Neri From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Jul 28 06:44:46 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:44:46 -0000 Subject: PRINCE, BLOOD,HALF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107952 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snow15145" wrote: Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore. Where did > a common muggle-type name such as Brian come from? It appears that at > some point in time Albus's bloodline may have been tainted with the > disgraceful muggle blood, which would make Albus himself a half > blood. Geoff: I did comment fairly recently that I have a feeling at the back of my mind that Brian has a noble connection - even royal - in Irish history. Can anyone confirm that? From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Jul 28 06:50:09 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:50:09 -0000 Subject: HBP Clues In-Reply-To: <002e01c4744a$287ed860$2201a8c0@mami> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107953 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "MamiBunny" wrote: MamiBunny: > And for Harry's discovery in the Chamber, I'm guessing it's parseltongue. This power of Harry's that he shares with LV might be better used now, deliberately. Geoff: Yes, but Harry knew before he went into the Chamber that he was a Parselmouth when he spoke Parseltongue in the duelling scene and Ron and Hermione explained what his gift was. From jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com Wed Jul 28 09:18:33 2004 From: jo.sturgess at btopenworld.com (mooseming) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:18:33 -0000 Subject: PRINCE, BLOOD,HALF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107954 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snow15145" > wrote: > Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore. Where did > > a common muggle-type name such as Brian come from? It appears that > at > > some point in time Albus's bloodline may have been tainted with the > > disgraceful muggle blood, which would make Albus himself a half > > blood. > > Geoff: > I did comment fairly recently that I have a feeling at the back of my > mind that Brian has a noble connection - even royal - in Irish > history. Can anyone confirm that? Brian Boru was the first, and last, true High King of Ireland. He and his elder brother Mahoun were local clan kings (or princes) of Munster. Together they fought against the Viking invasions of Ireland. Mahoun was killed by treachery and Brian inherited the throne. Brian united the royal clans of Southern Ireland and made peace with the ruler of Northern Ireland, Malachy. They continued the fight to free Ireland from the Vikings. At first the two kings ruled all Ireland jointly, however, Brian finally made Malachy acknowledge him as sole ruler of all Ireland (either by force or by persuasion). In 1014 at Clontarf (just north of Dublin) a decisive battle was fought between the Irish and the Vikings, Brian's army was victorious but Brian himself, now 89, was killed on April 23rd, Good Friday. He was not succeeded by any family member although two sons are said to have survived him. Since then it is said there has been no true High King. One possible meaning for the name Brian is 'Black Raven'. Jo not well read just well webbed! From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Wed Jul 28 09:21:47 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 05:21:47 -0400 Subject: Percy's role in book 6 Message-ID: <001401c47484$4f6487b0$29c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 107955 Tara said "I'm anxious to see where Percy turns in book 6.. will he admit he was wrong, run home to his family and join the order? Will he be stubborn and arrogant, not admitting his mistakes, disbelieving in Dumbledore?" DuffyPoo now: I am anxious as well. I posted a while back that I live with someone who is *exactly* like the Percy we so far have been shown. My *Percy* would never admit he was wrong or ever go back to the family after the row with his father and all that came after. I don't think he can or will disbelieve DD, but he won't go back home with his tail between his legs either. He won't be Jr Asst to the MoM anymore as, I believe, Fudge is going to get the heave-ho and whoever replaces him will want his own people near him, not Fudge's leftovers. I'm afraid Percy is going to get caught up in something. I don't think he is going to turn spy for LV or anything, at least not willingly. I'm thinking along the lines of Ludo Bagman here (God forbid he becomes the MoM), who was caught giving information to a LV spy in the ministry. LB didn't know Rookwood was on the other side, Rookwood was an old friend of LB's father. LB thought he was feeding info to the *good guys.* I can see a similar situation ensnaring dear Percy. I do hope I'm wrong and he comes running back home to his family by *my* Percy would never do it. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ryokas at hotmail.com Wed Jul 28 09:54:17 2004 From: ryokas at hotmail.com (kizor0) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:54:17 -0000 Subject: Switching of MoMArthur Weasly will NOT be next Ministe... In-Reply-To: <146.2f3ff589.2e3895e8@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107956 > I have one question. Why are we assuming that there WILL be a new MOM in the > next 2 books. > > Melissa Impeccable proof of Voldemort's return hard after a year of agressive Ministry policies saying he hasn't is going to hit everyone who believed in them hard. I gather that the theories say Fudge might burn out or such and resign as a result or the WW might decide that a mistake of such monumental proportions is proof of incompetence and throw him out of office. Kizor From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 28 10:29:42 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:29:42 -0000 Subject: Wand Questions In-Reply-To: <01ef01c46ea9$7cfb2a20$8e2f8c45@mynewputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107957 "Marny Helfrich" wrote: [snip with spelling corrections] > What Mr. Ollivander says is "You'll never get such good results with > another wizard's wand" (SS, Chapter 5 Diagon Ally, pg. 84 > (Scholastic)), which is not exactly the same thing as saying "If you > use another wizard's wand it won't work at all." Maybe you get more > "oomph," more precision, something from a well-matched wand. And > after all, neither Ron nor Neville is a champion wizard. I couldn't let this one pass. Given that Ron now has a new wand, which was presumably matched to him by MrO, he should be more nearly reaching his potential, although working all that time with a mis-matched wand might have done him no good at all. However, Neville didn't break his wand until the battle in the MoM, at which point we discover that he has managed everything to that point with an inherited wand! Recall how many times he was compared favourably to Hermione: he was second only to her in most of the DA lessons IIRC. Whither our Nev once he gets his own properly-matched wand? and will his Gran finally stop ragging him stupid? -- Phil From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jul 28 12:05:39 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:05:39 -0000 Subject: Snape's part in death of Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107958 - > Neri: > JKR's mind? There is perhaps not much indication that Snape was > delaying in JKR's mind. OTOH there is also not much indication that, in JKR's mind, Snape is a responsible man who gives a fig about what happens to the blasted Potter, or to any Gryffindor. > > Bookworm: > I honestly think that this is another case of JKR not plotting out > the timeframe for the "extra" characters in these scenes. > Snape's role is important, but he is in the background from > Harry's point of view. Potioncat: I am in awe of the timelines, the behind the scenes scenarios and the detail that many of the posters have come up with. You are great! But let's face it. There are holes. Whether the trip into the forest happened at either at 2000 or 2200 depends on whether you base it on sunset or dinner. If dinner is happening, it has to be even earlier than 2000. And as I read the events when the DA agrees to clear the hallways, it doesn't take hours at all. In fact, I dont' think it could take more than an hour. Someone used 1700 as a time for all this to start. I came up with 1600 for the end of the exam (assuming 2 hours for it). And in the past, IIRC, dinner was served at 1700. (Harry eats before going to Occlumency IIRC) Would dinner be served for more than 2 hours? So I don't think any of the HPFGU-timelines can prove or disprove that Snape was delaying. (But, boy, are they fun to read!) I agree with Bookworm that JKR may not have worked out Snape's timeline. I really do think he is a much less important character to her than to many of us. Now, as to Neri's comment about Snape not giving a fig, in JKR's mind. OK, I will admit there are places where we Snapefans have claimed noble motives for Snape's behavior. These are places where motive isn't "given" by the author and can't really be proved by either side of readers. But there are several places where Snape is shown as being intently interested in Potter. Whether it is out of duty (teacher for student) (Order member for tool against LV) (debt owed) or a genuine concern, I cannot say. 1. Broom incident and referee incident 2. Prowling the grounds waiting for the Ford Anglia to land (OK, Dd may have tasked him with that.) 3. The odd look at the dueling club 4. Emphasis on poison and antidotes that he doesn't put onto other students. 5.Extra level of protection he places around Harry in PoA (I'm recalling here that his anger wasn't at Harry's trick on Draco, but on Harry's being in Hogsmeade in the first place.) 6. Braking up the hexing match at the end of OoP (wait, that could be concern for Draco!) ;-) Now that I've written all this, and I look at the title of these posts, I'm wondering what all this has to do with Serius' death. Potioncat (who is going back to up-thread to jolt her memory) From drliss at comcast.net Wed Jul 28 12:25:32 2004 From: drliss at comcast.net (drliss at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:25:32 +0000 Subject: Percy's Role in Book 6 Message-ID: <072820041225.20935.41079B3B000B2474000051C722007637049C9C07049D0B@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 107960 Tara: I'm anxious to see where Percy turns in book 6.. will he admit he was wrong, run home to his family and join the order? Will he be stubborn and arrogant, not admitting his mistakes, disbelieving in Dumbledore? Percy's character is a little frightening to me. He wants so much for power. I fear thet Voldemort could sway him. I don't like to think its possible, but it is probable. I believe I read that Voldemort supporters didn't think so much about good or evil, but instead of power. It is not a quote, but I'm sure I read it in CoS, PoA, or GoF. Forgive my unsupported remark.. but its an important one! Lissa: Percy is a subject I've sort of been avoiding because my own brother is pulling a Percy, but I'm feeling masochistic this morning ;) I think Percy could go in a few different directions. I don't think he will intentionally "turn evil", but I think very few people do. Percy's probably hurting a bit right now. He's been proven wrong. Will he go back to his family? I almost think not- I think he's dreading the sounds of the "I told you so"s. I don't think (all of) the Weasleys would say this, but I think that's what Percy would be anticipating. And he knows, on some level, that he's been a jerk and he's hurt them. I can see him being too afraid to go back to his family and admitting he was wrong. It's facing up to a lot. The role I see Percy eventually playing is "What Wormtail really should have done." I don't see any redemption for Peter Pettigrew. If he had JUST betrayed Lily and James, maybe. But framing Sirius and (this is the big one) killing 12 innocent bystanders in the process... no. The only ones whose forgiveness would mean anything is Lupin and Harry, and after Sirius's death (and 12 years of exile for Lupin, inadvertantly thanks to Peter, who robbed Lupin of his only friends), I don't think it's reasonable to expect either of them to forgive Peter. Instead, I think Percy will encounter a similar situation as Peter. He will be lured in to the Death Eaters. No, Rookwood's not going to say "Hey kid! Check out this brouchure for our awesome group! Muggle-torture, killing, rape, arson... it's a blast! Stop by our meetings sometime- the big guy would love to meet you!" But Percy has some mighty big chinks in his armor. He craves power, yes- I think he's very frustrated by his family's status. And he craves approval. Someone who can offer him both things combined would be exceedingly dangerous. (I also think this was the tact that got Peter into the Death Eaters.) I think Percy will dip into the Dark Side. But I think he will eventually see what's wrong and have the courage to turn back. It's a mistake that will probably cost him his life- Sirius says you don't just hand in your resignation to Voldemort. But I could see that being what JKR has planned for Percy. And I think he WILL die to protect his family... as Peter should have done. Liss [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Wed Jul 28 12:40:16 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 08:40:16 -0400 Subject: Dudley & Late Magic Message-ID: <002701c474a0$09316d00$6562d1d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 107961 JKR said "In my books, magic almost always shows itself in a person before age 11; however, there is a character who does manage in desperate circumstances to do magic quite late in life, but that is very rare in the world I am writing about." For me this rules out Dudders. I don't think 16/17 can be considered *quite* late in life even when most kids start before the age of eleven. I was trying to think of any time he *saw* magic being performed and came up with very few instances that he could copy even in *desperate circumstances.* PS - he is given a pig's tail by Hagrid but no incantation is spoken CoS - he hears Harry muttering nonsense words - nothing of value there PoA - Harry blew up his aunt and a wine goblet - again no incantation spoken; Dudley may have seen the Accidental Magic Reversal Squad performing a Memory Charm on Marge. Could come in handy if he did see it and had Harry's wand close at hand GoF - Mr. Weasly blew open the fireplace - no incantation; Dudley dear was too overcome with his tongue to have heard any other incantations if there were any (there must have been unless Mr. W does spells without incantations, like Hagrid did) OotP - May have heard Harry's Expecto Patronum but couldn't possibly be expected to produce a patronus himself even in desperate circumstances Also, if Dudley became magical at 16, how would he fit into Hogwarts or would they even take him? He'd be six years behind everyone of his age in magical learning so he couldn't go in with the sixth years. Dumping him in with first years would make him an outcast (at least he'd get a glimpse of how Harry has felt living with the Durlseys but I can't imagine JKR starting up a storyline like that this late in the series) and I can't see Draco and his gang having anything to do then. Besides we get enough Harry Hunting/Bashing/Bullying from Dudders at Privet Drive. >From JKRs statement, I'm thinking this is a one shot deal...performed in desperate circumstances. Those who come to mind as possibilities are: Mrs. Figg was raised by magical people. Quite likely tried magic before she found out she was a Squib. She would at least know some spells from living with magic. No, she didn't do anything in the alley when the Dementors showed up, she wasn't actually *on the spot* so to speak. She was also wandless. Desperate circumstances or not, she was helpless at that moment. Which is not to say she couldn't come in handy in a tight spot in one of the next two books. Aunt Petunia has seen the spells Mr. Weasley performed (if indeed he used incantations) if she wasn't so hysterical over Dudders that she missed them, which is quite likely. However, we also know she saw Lily 'turning teacups into rats.' She may be able to call up that incantation in a pinch, desperate circumstances, if she is protecting Dudley/Vernon and Harry's wand is handy. Certainly would be a shock for Vernon wouldn't it? (I'm believing the books which so far seem to indicate that Petunia is a Muggle not a Squib and her parents were Muggles.) Mr. Filch, another Squib, has seen more than his share of spells and incantations, I'm sure. He's also, at least considered a Kwikspell course, whether he took it or not, we don't know. I think he'd come in handy in a sticky situation although I think he'd be a horror with a wand if it came down to developing magic late in life and keeping the ability. Talk about amazing bouncing ferrets! (Just a side thought. Since Filch sided with Umbridge in OotP will he still be around Hogwarts in HBP? DD would know by now that Filch is not loyal to him.) Sorry this is so long...just trying to relieve my mind of some of the stuff rolling (hehe Rowling) around in there! ;) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 28 12:55:50 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:55:50 -0000 Subject: Snape a vampire? (was Snape's Patronus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107962 "Dawn" wrote: > luckdragon64: [snip: talking about Snap here] > > ... and is never seen eating. Surely he eats something at that Christmas meal where he popped a vulture-hat out of a cracker, or Harry and the gang would have noticed! AFB so can't confirm. [snip again] > Oh, and I totally agree with you on the bat thing. Or perhaps some > other cunning bird. ObVious: bats aint birds. HTH HAND -- Phil, who is reminded of that wonderful poem: What a wonderful bird the frog are. When he stand he sit almost; When he hop, he fly almost; He ain't got no sense hardly; He ain't got not tail hardly either. When he sit, he sit on what he ain't got almost. (Anonymous) From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jul 28 13:28:45 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:28:45 -0000 Subject: Arthur Weasley won Arthur Weasly will NOT be next Ministe... In-Reply-To: <146.2f3ff589.2e3895e8@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107963 -Melissa asked: > I have one question. Why are we assuming that there WILL be a new MOM in the > next 2 books. > Potioncat: Well, I can't find it. But in an interview, JKR said there would be a new minister. Then, on her site, there is a flashing headline from the Quibbler that says something along the line that Fudge has left town. And, JKR says the next minister won't be Arthur. From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Jul 28 13:30:50 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:30:50 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's hold on Petunia [was Re: Lily's Family] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107964 Celestina: What I was trying to say, and didn't, was this: > its my theory that the reason V tried to kill James and Harry but > not necessarily Lily, was because I feel that there is a geneology or > blood link (going back to Gryffindor likely, I hope) that makes Harry > the one that would have the power to vanquish V. I know this is > incomplete at this point, because we know from OOTP that V doesn't > know the complete prophecy (and I am wondering if we don't know the > whole thing either). Jen: Thanks for writing back--my modem went out yesterday and I'm just getting caught up! OK, I understand now what you meant before, that the Potter blood gives Harry the Power. I *do* believe there's something special about Harry, that if LV had chosen Neville and not Harry, Neville would be dead and Harry would still be the One. Others believe Harry only has the power to defeat the Dark Lord because LV chose him, marked him and transferred powers to him, making him an equal. But, back to the blood. I do think Harry is special in the sense that he has a magical heritage he can choose to live up to or not. For myself I've decided the Choice Theory isn't negated, even if Harry has 'special blood', because Harry continues to choose to defeat the Dark Lord and always has since Book 1. Maybe that choice will waver in Book 6, now that he knows 'everything', but Harry being Harry, he'll still choose the path of Good. Celestina: > Now regading Lily. If the importance of killing > James and Harry was to terminate the bloodline of the one who could > defeat V, and to assure that if Harry died then James couldn't > produce another offspring, then the killing of Lily wasn't necessary > because she is of a different geneaology. Jen: Here's where I agree with you, but in the opposite direction--I think Lily is the link to Gryffindor, and has a stong magical heritage that gives her some special powers, and Harry as well. I really like the idea that Voldemort told Lily to 'step aside', not because he didn't think she mattered, but because he feared the consequences of killing her. Perhaps he knew something about her power to indicate killing her might bring some curse down on him. He chose to kill her anyway, taking his chances, and obviously not realizing Harry has the same power(s). Celestina: > But as far as her blood serving as protection to the > Dursley's household, well I just feel that the Dursleys are no threat > to V because Lily wasn't a direct threat to V. It was the Potters > blood that was the threat. As JKR has told us virtually nothing about > James's background so far in the storyline, I am assuming that the > reason for this is because it is important to the outcome of the book > and our final understanding of the V vs Harry plot, and she is > withholding it because she didn't want to spring it on us too early > in the series. Jen: I do think it could go either way, either one would work. If it's Lily passing down the magical blood, the potential is there that Dumbledore was able to talk Petunia into taking Harry by saying he would protect Dudley as well. If there's no threat to the Dursleys or Dudley at least, I have a very hard time figuring out what Dumbledore offered them. I can't believe he treatened them into doing it--I think Petuina had to *choose*(grudgingly, bitterly, etc.) to take Harry in for Dumbledore's charm to work. From ExSlytherin at aol.com Wed Jul 28 13:45:50 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:45:50 -0000 Subject: JKR Speaks: Arthur Weasly will NOT be next Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107965 > MAE Here: > I don't think it will be Lucius. Even when VM was in power before, > the MoM was on the side of the good guys. They may at times be > misguided (as in book 5), but they know how bad it would be for the WW if VM wins. >It may be someone brand new who we haven't met yet. The MoM may accept LM >money, but they know he is not to be trusted. Mandy again: Are but do they? Remember there is no evidence that Lucius Malfoy is a DE, or that he works for Voldemort, and although Harry, DD and the Order know Lucius is not to be trusted do the rest of the WW? I don't think so. Before the end of OotP Lucius Malfoy was a well respected, high- ranking member of the WW community. He had one misstep back in CoS, when he was removed from the Board of Governors of Hogwarts, but we don't know how that incident was reported to the rest of the WW. It is my opinion that the rest of the WW world was told that Malfoy simply stepped down, that he was too busy with all his other commitments etc. etc. We do know that DD kept Lucius' connection to the Diary, the Chamber, and Tom Riddle quiet, or the WW would have gone gaga over that juicy bit of scandal and there wasn't even a ripple. Besides even if DD had told Fudge about Lucius contribution to the Chamber of Secrets scandal, Fudge would not have believed him and hushed it all up. I'm sure Lucius has the Daily Prophet in his back pocket as well. So we have Lucius Malfoy as hero to the WW. Or at least an up- standing member of the community. Lucius Malfoy, benefactor to the poor and sick. Lucius Malfoy, a man who takes more than an active interest in the government. Lucius Malfoy the patriarch of the old, wealthy Malfoy Family, one of the few pureblooded families left. Yes, delightfully sicking, but it is how Malfoy looks from inside the WW, as opposed to from Harry's, and our, point of view. It all depend on how Lucius manages to wrangle out of Azkaban (he will) and if he can some how explain away his participation in the MoM scandal at the end of OotP so he comes out looking golden. If Lucius could somehow show he was at the MoM not fighting DD, but assisting DD, not as member of the Order obviously, but as an independent bystander caught up in the action. A stretch, I know, but if there is some incentive for DD to keep Lucius scandal free that would aid the cover up, I could see it happening. And Lucius's potential connection to Snape and Voldemort might be enough for DD and the Order to want to keep Lucius out of prison and active in the WW. I'm not saying for certain he will be Minister of Magic but it would be interesting. Plus we know Malfoy Sr. is going to be dead by the end of book 7 so his rein would be short, just enough time cause some delightful mayhem. Cheers Mandy From garybec101 at comcast.net Wed Jul 28 13:04:27 2004 From: garybec101 at comcast.net (garybec101 at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:04:27 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Arthur Weasley won Arthur Weasly will NOT be next Ministe... Message-ID: <072820041304.19501.4107A45B000C0B5E00004C2D2200762194CECFCE0C0A0D979D0E09@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 107966 I have one question. Why are we assuming that there WILL be a new MOM in the next 2 books. Melissa Becki responds; Jo's interview from the internet chat she did in back in march, (check the lexicon), said absolutly there was going to be a new Minster of Magic. Also, on her website, there is an ad for the Quibbler that says that "Fudge Flees from Office". Becki Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tzakis1225 at netzero.com Wed Jul 28 14:17:24 2004 From: tzakis1225 at netzero.com (demetra1225) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 14:17:24 -0000 Subject: How should Harry deal with Snape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107967 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mnaper2001" wrote: > I don't know. Harry is the hero and I think he's on course to be > more emotionally mature and developed than Snape if for no other > reason than his name is on the book titles. If the relationship > changes for the better, it will be because Harry changes his mind > about or his approach to Snape. Demetra: I agree completely. I think Harry is meant to become the better person. There have been a lot of posts on this thread trying to answer the question what should Harry do, if anything, to change Snape and/or his behavior. My short answer would be nothing. Harry can't change Snape's behavior, only Snape can. And I don't see him wanting to change himself. On the other hand, the title of this thread is 'How should Harry deal with Snape'. My answer to that question would be Harry should stop reacting to Snape, for his own benefit, not for Snape's. Harry can't control what Snape says or does, he can only control how he reacts to Snape. Take away the reaction and take away the power Snape's words or actions have. Free added benefit - it would frustrate the hell out of Snape. This could be a first step to mastering his emotions. Harry has always reacted to Snape's taunts at an emotional level, and understandably so since the taunts are very personal. IMHO, Harry could greatly benefit from disconnecting his emotional reactions to Snape - sort of like Lupin seems to. After all, it was LV's knowledge of Harry's emotional attachment to Sirius that allowed LV to manipulate Harry. This is what I think Snape was referring to during Occlumency lessons when he told Harry that he was handing LV weapons (and I believe Snape knows this from personal experience). Demetra (who wishes she could follow her own advice in RL) From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Jul 28 14:18:39 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 14:18:39 -0000 Subject: PRINCE, BLOOD,HALF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107968 Snow: > I really liked something, Jen Reese, had said a short time after we > found out the name of the sixth book. Instead of half blood prince > maybe it is the "prince of the half bloods". When I saw this > statement I immediately thought yes, this is the best title for a > background book of all the characters, most of which are half blood. Jen: Thanks for the citation, Snow! I read that from someone else (to be fair), and don't remember who--it gets hard to trace back. But yes, I wholeheartedly believe the Half Blood Prince will be a half-blood himself and be the prince of half bloods as well. Snow: > But who then would be best suited for the position as the prince of > the half bloods? Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore. Where did > a common muggle-type name such as Brian come from? It appears that at > some point in time Albus's bloodline may have been tainted with the > disgraceful muggle blood, which would make Albus himself a half > blood. I do feel that Albus is the heir of Godric Griffindore who > could be seen as the king to Albus's possible prince status. Jen: This relates back to Dumbeldore's defeat of Grindelwald and the 'champion of mudbloods and muggleborns'. Dumbledore has made it his mission in life to do the 'saving people' thing. He safeguards creatures at Hogwarts, gives opportunities to the downtrodden, and apparently has sacrificed his personal life in exchange for saving the WW. He was the only person in the WW with a power equal to Voldemort and therefore, the only person who could really be chosen to hear the prophecy, safeguard Harry, and attempt to be selfless in the process. Snow: > > Albus appears to be the savior of many who reside at the school under > his protection like Hagrid who is half-giant or Lupin who is half > blood and werewolf. Albus has also been called a muggle lover and > has, unlike his fellows, followed the muggle news. Albus appears to > be well versed in his muggle awareness, acceptance and protection for > the half bloods who find comfort in the safe haven of his castle. Jen: I laugh about Dumbledore's warnings re: the Forbidden Forest--- I think he's trying to safeguard the creatures in the Forest as much as he is the kids! It's no accident that Centaurs, Thestrals, Unicorns et. al., live in that forest--they are there because Hogwarts, under Dumbledore, is the only sanctuary left in the WW. Lupin, Hagrid, Trelawney, even Snape are there because Dumbledore has asked them to be there. He has done tremendous things, everything in his power and more, to protect people and creatures of the WW and I'm ready to hear the backstory on him. Besides the literal reasons for Dumbeldore to be the HBP, there's the symbolic and alchemical reasons. We're entering the albedo stage, after the nigredo in book 5, and who better to represent the stage of purification than Albus? I *hope* he's the HBP, but then I always get surprised by the twist and turns JKR takes! Jen R. From eleanor at dreamvine.org.uk Wed Jul 28 14:44:20 2004 From: eleanor at dreamvine.org.uk (iamvine) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 14:44:20 -0000 Subject: HBP Clues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107969 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "MamiBunny" > wrote: > > MamiBunny: > > And for Harry's discovery in the Chamber, I'm guessing it's > parseltongue. This power of Harry's that he shares with LV might be > better used now, deliberately. > > Geoff: > Yes, but Harry knew before he went into the Chamber that he was a > Parselmouth when he spoke Parseltongue in the duelling scene and Ron > and Hermione explained what his gift was. Eleanor: But that's okay, because look at JKR's actual quote: ----From http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/faq_view.cfm?id=56 ---- The link I mentioned between books two and six does not, in fact, relate to the 'Half-Blood Prince' (because there is no trace left of the HBP storyline in 'Chamber'.) Rather, it relates to a discovery Harry made in 'Chamber' that foreshadows something that he finds out in 'Prince'. ----End quote---- The discovery is made in 'Chamber' the book, not the actual Chamber. So Parseltongue is entirely possible. Eleanor From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Jul 28 15:01:49 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:01:49 -0000 Subject: Snape a vampire? (was Snape's Patronus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107970 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Phil Boswell" wrote: > > Surely he eats something at that Christmas meal where he popped a vulture-hat out of a cracker, or Harry and the gang would have noticed!< > Vampire threads...they just won't die, will they? If Jo wants to put a stake through their heart, she's going to have to do better than "Erm...I don't think so." She does occasionally give hints that can be interpreted in more than one way. The clearest example I can find is this one: http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/1999/0999-barnesnoble -staff.htm ==== You've said in interviews that there will be casualties in the Harry Potter series. Now, everyone at a web site I visit says someone (probably Hagrid) will die in Book 4. Will someone die or is this a terrible rumor? I love Hagrid! It is true that there will be deaths in Book 4 for the first time. It is likely that the reader will only care about one of the deaths. I can't say who it is, but I have certainly never told anyone that it's Hagrid -- hint, hint. ==== To understand the double meaning, you have to know that according to a widespread and fairly credible rumour at the time, Jo had told someone that Hagrid would die in *Book 5.* (I can't give details cause they're movie related, but you can look them up.) So one might think that Jo was hinting the book 5 rumour was true even if the book four rumour wasn't. As for Snape's dietary habits: Jo has carefully explained, and shown us in canon, that the Hogwarts House Elves can prepare meals for all dietary requirements. Jo has also said little in canon about what vampires can or can't eat. We know that they have a taste for blood and an aversion to garlic. That's all. Perhaps Snape doesn't eat at Grimmauld Place because telling Molly to hold the garlic would make her suspicious? Pippin From shirley2allie at hotmail.com Wed Jul 28 15:19:29 2004 From: shirley2allie at hotmail.com (Shirley) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:19:29 -0000 Subject: PRINCE, BLOOD,HALF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107971 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snow15145" wrote: <> Hufflepuff- > muggle born. Shirley: I'm assuming that you're not being completely literal with this comparison, as we can recall that Ernie MacMillan (who is Hufflepuff) can trace his "family back through nine generations of witches and warlocks" and his "blood's as pure as anyone's" (CoS, ch 11, US paperback, p200). So Hufflepuff is not made up entirely of muggleborns. > > Albus appears to be the savior of many who reside at the school under > his protection like Hagrid who is half-giant or Lupin who is half > blood and werewolf. Albus has also been called a muggle lover and > has, unlike his fellows, followed the muggle news. Albus appears to > be well versed in his muggle awareness, acceptance and protection for > the half bloods who find comfort in the safe haven of his castle. > > Snow Shirley: But, actually, the thing I need to ask about is your assertion that Lupin is half-blood. Yes, we know he's werewolf because he was bitten as a young boy (he says this in the Shrieking Shack, I believe, in PoA, but I don't have that book here with me). But I don't recall reading anywhere whether his parentage is pureblood or mixed-blood. Personally, I always assumed that he was probably pureblood, as his parents appear to have accepted that he was a werewolf (after being bitten), whereas I would expect muggle parents to struggle with that concept. Shirley, apologizing for being picky, but wondering if she missed something along the way.... From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Jul 28 15:54:53 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:54:53 -0000 Subject: PRINCE, BLOOD,HALF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107972 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shirley" wrote: > > Shirley: But, actually, the thing I need to ask about is your > assertion that Lupin is half-blood. Yes, we know he's werewolf > because he was bitten as a young boy (he says this in the Shrieking > Shack, I believe, in PoA, but I don't have that book here with me). > But I don't recall reading anywhere whether his parentage is > pureblood or mixed-blood. Personally, I always assumed that he was > probably pureblood, as his parents appear to have accepted that he > was a werewolf (after being bitten), whereas I would expect muggle > parents to struggle with that concept. > > Shirley, apologizing for being picky, but wondering if she missed > something along the way.... These days it's not enough to be familiar with the books - you also need to keep track of what JKR reveals in her interviews and web-chats. This one is from March this year: Q. Is Remus a pureblood? A. Half blood. Now that's interesting. I can't find many examples of JKR using the term 'half blood' yet it turns up in regard to Remus and book 6. "Prince' though... perhaps that's what his parents called him when he was in lupine mode: "Here Prince! Good boy! Walkies!" Kneasy From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Wed Jul 28 16:56:36 2004 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:56:36 -0000 Subject: Snape's part in death of Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107973 Hello All, Fred Waldrop Here; No offence, but where are you getting these facts below from? My OOP says, (page 830)<"When, however, you did not return from your trip into the forest with Dolores Umbridge, Professor Snape grew worried that you still believe Sirius to be a captive of Lord Voldemort's. He alerted certain order members at once."> It does NOT say ANYWHERE that he alerted them again later. It does go on to say... <"All agreed to go to your aid at once. Professor Snape requested that Sirius remain behind, as he needed somebody remain at headquarters to tell me what happened, for I was due there any moment. In the meantime he, Professor Snape, **INTENDED**(my emphasis)to search the forest for you."> As you will notice, in this passage, we are NOT even sure that Snape went look for Harry and friends. As far as I can tell, he was standing at window, rubbing his hands together laughing under his breath thinking of all the horrable things that might be happening to Harry in the forest, seeing he hasn't got a wand to protect himself. And seeing as there are no other passages about this, once more, where does everyone get all these "facts" below? Fred --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: Potioncat: Where does the 2 hours come from? Do we know how much time passed between Snape discovering Harry was gone and his notifying the Order? Neri: The 2 hours came from Pippin's estimation. Lets check. We know for sure that Snape checked the first time with HQ after leaving Umbridge's office. It seems that his means of communication, whatever it was, was very fast or instantaneous, because he sent a question and got an answer that Sirius was indeed in HQ. We know that when he "grew worried" he contacted HQ again. So the time it took him to become worried was: The time Harry and Co. spent in the forest + The time it took them to fly to London + The time it took them to find the prophecy + The time they fought the DEs ? 2 x The time it took Snape to contact HQ ? The time it took the Order members to get to the DoM once they got the message from Snape. In my estimation it would be considerably more than 2 hrs. Double-check: It is also mentioned that twilight was falling when Harry and Co. took off to London from the forest, and when DD sent Harry to his office after the battle it was already dawn (Harry can see the first light on the horizon from DD's window). So you can also calculate it as: The time Harry and Co. spent in the forest + The length of the night in Scotland in June ? 2 x The time it took Snape to contact HQ ? The time it took the Order members to get to the DoM ? The time since they got there until DD sent Harry to his office. IMO should be at least 4 hrs, more likely 5. Moreover, most of it was dark time. Snape waited at least 3 hrs AFTER DARK before he "grew worried" about six students and a teacher in the Forbidden Forest. Not responsible at all. Potioncat: I am assuming, whatever the time, that the kids had left the forest by the time Snape is looking there. Do we know "when" he found out that anyone had left the castle? Neri: It would be very strange if he hadn't noticed for several hours that all the Inquisitorial Squad was hexed. At the very least someone must have noticed it (it must have been quite a BANG) and alerted him, as he was one of the senior teachers left in the school. How much time is it to question the Slytherins and find out what happened? Potioncat: This could be a fun, meaty thread to debate, but I do have one major question. With all the errors we've made with Mark Evans and the HBP: Is it your thought that JKR is showing us that Snape delayed looking for Harry? Neri: Do you mean that it wasn't her intension and she didn't do the math of the timeline from everybody's point of view? Could be, but IMO this fits well with the pattern of Snape's carelessness and irresponsibility regarding Harry during the Occlumency lessons and especially after he stopped the lessons. Neri From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Jul 28 17:03:21 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:03:21 -0000 Subject: Snape's part in death of Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107974 > Asian_lovr2: > At that point, Harry believe Sirius has been taken > to the Ministry by Voldemort. Snape intent is to verify that Sirius is at Grimmauld Place which he does. However, we don't know the exact contents of that conversation. Remember at this time it's about 6pm; still daylight, and the Ministry is probably still occupied, so the whole idea is pretty far fetched.< > > Neri: > Actually my estimation would be more like 8pm. We know it was dinner when Harry, Hermione and Umbridge left for the forest, and "the sun was falling towards the tops of the trees" (Ch. 33) Pippin: We know it was 5:00 PM when Harry had his vision. == "But...Harry, think about this. It's five o'clock in the afternoon...the Ministry of Magic must be full of workers...how would Voldemort and Sirius have got in without being seen? Harry...they're probably the two most wanted wizards in the world. ..you think they could get into a building full of Aurors undetected?" == The next time point we have is Harry's departure via thestral "...they burst through the topmost branches of the trees and soared out into a blood-red sunset" JKR then confuses things by stating four paragraphs later that "Twilight fell: the sky was turning to a light dusky purple littered with silver stars..." JKR is using the term 'twilight' loosely, here, as the sun has already set. It's full dark by the time they reach theMinistry, but the sun would set somewhat sooner in London than in Northern Scotland. Shaun? Care to give us some times for all this? I'm assuming it's at or near the summer solstice and that Hogwarts is well north of Edinburgh. That would put sunset after 10:00 PM, but I'm not sure by how much. Now we have to work back from the sunset. We don't know how long the encounter with the centaurs took, but it can't have been too long or the rest of the DA would have caught up before it was over. Harry, Umbridge and Hermione can't have spent more than 50 minutes walking into the forest, or they'd have reached Aragog's lair, unless they were going considerably slower than twelve year old Ron and Harry in CoS (canon). Hermione told Harry he couldn't expect to have more than five minutes to talk to Sirius. Put it all together with the time it took to clear the corridors, and have the altercation with Umbridge and it still doesn't work out to 5 PM. In the Potterverse, poetry will always trump physics. JKR wanted the vision at five pm so that the Ministry would be crowded, and people would be eating dinner at Hogwarts (and not cluttering up the corridors shortly thereafter), she wanted Harry to take off into a blood red sunset, and she wanted his darkest hour to be literally just before dawn. It's a toy universe, as I've said before. Some things really work and others are just painted on. But one more point in favor of Snape; he wouldn't want to tell Sirius that Harry was in trouble unless he was sure it was really true. He might guess that whatever he said, Sirius would insist on leaving the protection of Grimmauld Place to come to Harry's aid. The last thing Snape needs is for Sirius to come roaring up to Hogwarts to challenge Umbridge. He might have become a hostage for real--or more likely, Dementor fodder. > Neri: > I'm impressed by the level of detail, Pippin, but excuse me at this point: why would the door be locked at all? I'd assume Ron and Co left with so much hurry, I wouldn't be surprised if they left the door ajar.< Ron might, but Ginny wouldn't. She's had some experience at this kind of thing, sneaking off with the twins' brooms and covering up her absences and her theft of the diary in CoS. (Ron: Let's go! Ginny: Not yet, Ron. We need to use a few more spells on them first...we don't want them waking up too quickly. Let's see, what are those two you shouldn't use together? Furnunculus and Jelly-legs? Excellent, *that* should take a while to sort out. Close the door, Ron, we don't want Filch finding them.) Umbridge's security spells would reset themselves automatically, at least the ones on the obstacles in PS/SS and the ones at Grimmauld Place do. I don't suppose Umbridge set them up herself. She probably got her pet Aurors to do it for her. Pippin From jlawlor at gmail.com Wed Jul 28 17:38:56 2004 From: jlawlor at gmail.com (James Lawlor) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:38:56 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: PRINCE, BLOOD,HALF In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96773c88040728103824c91cc4@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107975 Kneasy: > Now that's interesting. I can't find many examples of JKR using the > term 'half blood' yet it turns up in regard to Remus and book 6. > "Prince' though... perhaps that's what his parents called him when > he was in lupine mode: > "Here Prince! Good boy! Walkies!" James: *laughs* That poses an interesting question. What *do* you do with a toddler who not only refuses to eat his peas, but will be turning into a dangerous murderous beast in half an hour? - James From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Wed Jul 28 17:39:36 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:39:36 -0400 Subject: JKR Speaks: Arthur Weasly will NOT be next Minister of Magic Message-ID: <000e01c474c9$da6cabe0$a5c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 107976 Mandy said: "I'm not saying for certain he will be Minister of Magic but it would be interesting. Plus we know Malfoy Sr. is going to be dead by the end of book 7 so his rein would be short, just enough time cause some delightful mayhem." DuffyPoo now: Why do we know Malfoy Sr is going to be dead? I don't know that...doesn't mean it isn't true, but I don't know it. Did JKR say so? Malfoy is in Azkaban although I don't believe any of them are going to be there long since the Dementors are no longer there to keep them in. He was reported as a DE in the Quibbler article which was later reprinted as an *exclusive* in the Daily Prophet, after the truth about the incident in the MoM came out. DD captured LV with an Anti-Disapparation Jinx in the DoM along with the other DEs that were there. Aurors Dawlish and Williamson from the MoM went to the DoM to take care of the DEs on Fudge's orders. We know LM is in Azkaban because Draco said so 'You wait. I'll have you. You can't land my father in prison --' [Draco speaking] 'I thought I just had.' said Harry. LM may have convinced people he'd been hoodwinked or taken in by LV the last time, but I think our slippery friend will have a more difficult time talking his way out of this one. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Wed Jul 28 17:43:09 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:43:09 -0000 Subject: TBAY: (SHH) JAM TAKES BIBS--Very Long Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107977 [Note: Skip down to the divider if you don't appreciate TBAY, but just want to read the theory.] "No thanks!" Boyd shouted to the LOLLIPOPS vendors. "I'm just out for a little jog today--but thanks, anyway!" Feeling the sand scrunch between his toes, he almost didn't notice that he had reached the dark edge of TBay. Peering into the overgrown darkness that blocked the beach along this shore, he whispered to no one in particular, "I wonder if it's true that acromantulas live here." Despite the dense undergrowth, the silence was oppressive, as if no creature was daring enough to set foot in this forbidden zone. Steeling his courage, Boyd said loudly, "what's the worst that could happen." And with that, he began wading through the heavy branches, leaves and vines that seemed to grab at him like a sentient wall. Looking high up in the canopy, he noticed some flotsam that looked as though it had been blown out of the water ages ago, perhaps by a singularly aggressive GARBAGE SCOW attack. On its side, it read, "betrayal!" Puzzled, Boyd continued, feeling an eerie dread creep over him. Further on, he stepped over a giant dark beam of a ship with "Squib" written on it. Squib? Boyd thought. I haven't even seen a ship like that before. Without warning, he reached an impassable tower of thorny vines. Using OCCAM'S RAZOR, he cut a hole and found himself in an uncharted clearing that housed a small hut and, impossibly, a.... "Ship! What the heck is that doing here?" >From out of the small hut stepped a very old, very dirty, very ugly house elf. It croaked happily, "At last a new master has come. What is your command, sir?" Flabbergasted (and repulsed), Boyd blurted, "What in the world is this ship, and what is it doing here?" "This, sir," the ancient elf intoned, "is the ship that no one wants to mention, though it has passed through the nightmares of many. It is '(SHH) JAM TAKES BIBS,' or (Squib Harry Hated) James Allowed Marvolo To Avada Kedavra Evans' Son But It Backfired Severely." -------TBAY Suspended------- One of the curiosities of this series is that we know so little about the background of the main character: what were his parents like? what about them made Harry special? what happened at Godric's Hollow? Apparently JKR does not want Harry (or us) to find out these answers, and I suggest that she has good reasons: the plot revolves around them. So let's start asking the questions that Harry should be asking. Leading question #1: what do we know about Lily? She is a half-blood, because according to JKR's website, her grandparents (some here think JKR meant to say her parents) were muggles. So some muggle blood in her. We also know she was a talented Gryffindor (a Head Girl) with a particular ability in charms (SS5). And she cares about others, as she demonstrates in Snape's pensieve memory. Leading question #2: how did LV know that Peter was the secret-keeper? Only four people knew: Peter, Sirius, James and Lily, so one of them told LV or his agents. We have assumed it was Peter who ran to LV, but is this reasonable to expect from such a scared little rat? Leading question #3: why change secret-keepers at the last minute from James' best friend (Sirius) to Peter? Even if Sirius expressed concerns, even if Sirius was known to be James' best friend, why change? At least Sirius would have a better chance to hide and/or run from LV if needed, given his apprent magical abilities. Leading question #4: did James really change or did he remain self-centered post-Hogwarts? Not much evidence here, but any change to become a swell guy would have been pretty incongruous next to the pensieve scene and his Marauders antics. We do know that James must have had no empathy at all when he made weak-minded Peter the secret-keeper. Hadn't they all hung out constantly for the last few years? Serious lack of personal skills to so misread a supposedly close friend. Leading question #5: Why did Lily's sister called him "that awful boy" (OoP2)? Was she jealous? Hated magic back then, too? Or was James really awful, as in self-centered, little empathy, arrogant. These questions, taken individually, can each be answered to James' benefit. But taken together, they suggest an alternative no one wants to look at here, because it's so sad: James was the betrayer. How? Well, with some muggle blood in Lily's veins, maybe Harry was born a virtual squib of baby!Neville-level abilties or worse. James, a pureblood, is appalled, ashamed, and in his self-cenetered way, sees the child as not merely worthless, but a liability. So he decides to let LV kill it. Changes secret-keepers to the more easily blamed (and more easily eliminated) Pettigrew. Gets the word to LV that Peter knows the location, and that LV can come take the child if he leaves him and Lily alone. You see, James does love Lily. She's beautiful (OoP28), powerful at charms (SS5), and most of all, puts up with his git-ness. He assumes that, as she has done with him three times before (OoP37), Lily will run away with him from LV. But this time there is also the child. James believes she will leave it to save her own skin--it's what he'd do. Unfortunately, Lily runs to the other room to save Harry. Shocked, possibly torn between saving himself and leaving Lily, James pauses too long and is AK'd. Goodbye, James the Betrayer. While LV disposes of James, Lily places the charm of blood-protection on Harry before LV can eliminate him. The rest is literary history. Oh, yes, and now dead James hates LV for killing him, so that when he emerges from the wand during the Priori Incantatem, he tries to stop LV. Yucky? Yes. Explain a lot? Yes. Believable? You tell me. -------Resume TBAY------- "Yes," said Boyd to the wizened old elf, "I think the others should see this vessel. Sail it out on the TBay, until others fire enough holes into it to end its life. Or until it is proven to be the ugly truth." --boyd who is not sure of he believes this, but is sure he believes that it's possible, big and bangy! fire away! From rowansjet at yahoo.com Wed Jul 28 09:07:23 2004 From: rowansjet at yahoo.com (rowansjet) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:07:23 -0000 Subject: Arthur Weasley won Arthur Weasly will NOT be next Ministe... In-Reply-To: <146.2f3ff589.2e3895e8@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107978 Melissa: > I have one question. Why are we assuming that there WILL be a new > MOM in the next 2 books. Because Jkr has said there will be (on her website I think). "rowansjet" From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Wed Jul 28 13:09:01 2004 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:09:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's part in death of Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040728130901.57930.qmail@web50109.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107979 --- nkafkafi wrote: >Looking at this again, I don't think JKR has any holes in her >timeline. In fact, the more I read the canon, the more I am >convinced her timing is carefully planned. I would not be surprised >if she actually looked at the same sunrise/sundown table I cited >above. While not actually naming the hours, she gives us quite >enough consistent detail to convict our poor Severus with nearly >criminal negligence. I know, she's generally not very good with >numbers and times, but I think in this case it is not she who is at >fault. It's Snape. You know, following this debate has reminded me why I unsubscribed a few years ago. There's just so many hours in a day to read the same posts over and over again. I'm not convinced by Neri's arguments or by the assertion that JKR did such a detailed timeline. There are lots of sloppy details in the series that show that JKR could do a better job of tightening things up or at least get a sterner editor. FWIW, I think there might have been more hours between Snape leaving the Umbridge's office and contacting Sirius and his second contacting of the Order members than others have assumed. From Snape's POV, he's called to Umbridge's office and asked for veritaserum. He administers a slapdown, gets put on probation, Potter shouts his weird statement, Snape responds, leaves and checks on Sirius. Sirius is at GP. Okay. So no one's in any danger. Snape goes back to grading papers or essays or whatever. What's happening back in Umbridge's office - from Snape's POV? Well, Umbridge has got the DA in trouble but all they've got to do is keep their mouths shut and what's she going to do? Hand out detentions all around and let them go back to their dorms. Maybe disband the Gryffindor Quidditch team. Write another 18-page report to Fudge. New restrictions to be announced the next day: No talking to Gryffindors or some such nonsense. In other words, business as usual. There's really no reason for Snape to assume that something different was going to happen that night or that Harry was going to try to get to London. After all, Umbridge caught him using the fireplace floo as a telephone, not a portal(this is one of my favourite dumb!Harry moments in OOTP: he's desperate to GET to London but when he's in front of Umbridge's fireplace and can floo there he just uses it like a telephone. Amazing!). Harry was checking on SIrius, not trying to get there. Yes, he'll have a few bad hours until he can be assured that Sirius is safe but tough, that's life. Maybe now he'll appreciate that he should have studied occlumency harder. Snape starts composing a little speech in his head on that subject the next time he decides he's speaking to Harry. So a few hours go by and then a bedraggled Draco comes pounding along the corridor to report what happened. Snape listens, stone-faced, alternately exasperated with Gryffindor stupidity and Slytherin gullibility, then hears about the trip into the Forest. Cause for concern? Definitely, on the other hand Umbridge has a wand and she's an adult. Surely she wouldn't just keep walking into the forest following a foolish girl? He'll give it some time and wait for them to come back. Okay, there's STILL no reason to assume that Harry and Co. have gone to London. Surely they wouldn't be THAT reckless and foolish? But perhaps Potter is insisting on talking to Sirius face to face. Perhaps they've succeeded in shaking off Umbridge and are making their way to Hogsmeade to use an unsupervised floo in the village. But that means they're more likely to be wandering around lost in the woods. Better go out and find the little twits. To be on the safe side, contact the Order and let them know what might be happening in the MoM. He does and off the Order goes to the rescue. So I really believe that Snape thought the biggest danger Harry was in was from something in the forest. That's why he took so long to make the second call. He didn't know Harry was trying to GET to London rather than just CALL there. Magda __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From maritajan at yahoo.com Wed Jul 28 14:07:44 2004 From: maritajan at yahoo.com (Marita Jan) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 07:07:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Percy's Role in Book 6 In-Reply-To: <072820041225.20935.41079B3B000B2474000051C722007637049C9C07049D0B@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20040728140744.45056.qmail@web12108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107980 > Tara: > [snip] He wants so much for power. I fear thet Voldemort could sway him. I don't like to think its possible, but it is probable. I believe I read that Voldemort supporters didn't think so much about good or evil, but instead of power. It is not a quote, but I'm sure I read it in CoS, > PoA, or GoF. Forgive my unsupported remark.. but its an important one! >From Chamber of Secrets, pg. 54 [Hagrid speaking] "Anyway, this --- this wizard, about twenty years ago now, started looking' fer followers. Got 'em, too --- some were afraid, some just wanted a bit o' his power, 'cause he was gettin' himself power, all right." I agree completely! And this is why I believe Percy will have some negative impact in the next book. Even if he doesn't believe he's doing anything wrong, if (for example) he believes he's spying on the Order "for their own good" or some other twisted reason, I think he's proven himself more than capable of looking out for numero uno...himself. mj ===== -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Need a real estate professional? Visit my site at www.maritabush.com With Marita, great service comes first.....and lasts! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From griffin782002 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 28 14:46:01 2004 From: griffin782002 at yahoo.com (sp. sot.) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 07:46:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Arthur Weasley won Arthur Weasly will NOT be next Ministe... In-Reply-To: <072820041304.19501.4107A45B000C0B5E00004C2D2200762194CECFCE0C0A0D979D0E09@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20040728144601.23029.qmail@web90005.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107981 Becki wrote: Jo's interview from the internet chat she did in back in March, (check the Lexicon), said absolutely there was going to be a new Minster of Magic. Also, on her website, there is an ad for the Quibbler that says that "Fudge Flees from Office". Griffin782002 now: I wonder if this is has something to do with the D.E.s. I haven't rejected the idea that Fudge is the one that have deserted me; he could flee after he realizes that L.V. was really back. Or perhaps he feels so disgraced because he failed to act immediately that he decides to leave. Griffin782002 From timnshell at hotmail.com Wed Jul 28 15:08:57 2004 From: timnshell at hotmail.com (Shell) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:08:57 -0000 Subject: "Alas", how about Umbridge as new MoM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107982 > > How many of the good guys do we know who seem to be realistic > > candidates? > > Antosha: > Well, the doom-and-gloom party candidates (Malfoy and Umbridge) are > pretty unsavory-- and unlikely in the short-term, since one is > literally in prison and the other is both thoroughly disgraced and > very closely tied to Fudge. > > So if Fudge goes, how about the wizard they wanted to draft BEFORE > Fudge became Minister? > > Dumbledore. > > This would be a good move politically, but would also open up all > sorts of possibilities. > Also would mean that Hogwarts would be more vulnerable to attack, > of course... ************ Shell: I agree that it will never be Malfoy and heaven help us if it ever became Umbridge. That woman is just Evil! You bring up a good point with Dumbledore, but I just can't see him leaving Hogwarts in order to become the new MoM. I think he might feel that he is better suited to staying at Hogwarts in order to protect Harry. But, as to who to place as the MoM, that's a good question. Personally, I would love to see Lupin there. Yes, yes, he is a werewolf, but can you imagine the mayhem it would cause? But I realize that would be an impossible choice, so will not even go there again! I would love to see Arthur Weaseley as the new Minister, but again, Jo as said he won't be, and I personally don't think he would be a good choice. He's a lovely person, but is too kind hearted and I feel that the MoM needs to be a strong character. We've already had a weak character (Fudge) in that role, and look what happened there. I'm sure that the new MoM might be someone from the Order. Oh, just had a thought. What if they put Percy in as MoM? I certainly don't think that's a good idea. I feel that he could be totally swayed by power. He worries me. From shan6242000 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 28 15:22:05 2004 From: shan6242000 at yahoo.com (Shannon) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 08:22:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Neville as HBP? (was Re: HBP again!) In-Reply-To: <1090890007.17547.98884.m24@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20040728152205.99597.qmail@web52207.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107983 Anne Writes: > Then who was Prince before him? Godric Gryffindor, the first > Muggle-lover ever? I always thought his sword identified him > as a nobleman. Why not Prince, Half Blood Prince? Brenda writes: > Harry learns that he is the last heir of Gryffindor and that > Godric was the halfblood prince. What if the HBP is Neville? He has always had a strong presence in the books. His parents were in the Order. From what I have read, he comes from a long line of wizards. She did say that she thought Neville's story line was more central to the whole plot than Dean Thomas. This is just an idea. Shannon From scraft at dustshield.com Wed Jul 28 16:04:17 2004 From: scraft at dustshield.com (scott_craft_2000) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:04:17 -0000 Subject: HBP Clues Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107984 When JKR cut out the HBP storyline, could it be that finds a wall with the information on it, or could it be something the Tom Riddle tells him about his own past or about Harry's past. Any comments? "scott_craft_2000" From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Wed Jul 28 15:47:24 2004 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 08:47:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's hold on Petunia [was Re: Lily's Family] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040728154724.21867.qmail@web50109.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107985 --- Jen Reese wrote: > If there's no threat to the Dursleys or Dudley at least, I have a > very hard time figuring out what Dumbledore offered them. I can't > believe he treatened them into doing it--I think Petuina had to > *choose*(grudgingly, bitterly, etc.) > to take Harry in for Dumbledore's charm to work. No offense to Jen for using her quote, but I would suggest that we might be making this more complicated than it has to be. Regardless of how Petunia felt about having a witch for a sister (truly disgusted or secretly jealous) there was one platform where the two of them could meet, know exactly how the other felt and be in total empathy and sympathy with each other: they were both new mothers and they knew what it felt like to be willing to die for another little human being. For me, it's not a matter of Dumbledore's threats or complicated spells. Petunia opened the door, found Harry and read the letter. She realized that her sister was dead and that as a result of her death Harry had been saved. I'm sure the letter went on to explain a number of other things but that probably had the biggest impact on Petunia. She could appreciate the desperate need Lily would have felt to protect Harry and the great love her sister had as a mother for her child. I believe in that moment Petunia felt closer to Lily than she ever had in her life before or would ever feel after. And that's why they kept Harry. Magda (wielding Occam's Razor) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From maritajan at yahoo.com Wed Jul 28 17:48:20 2004 From: maritajan at yahoo.com (Marita Jan) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:48:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PRINCE, BLOOD, HALF In-Reply-To: <96773c88040728103824c91cc4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040728174820.74217.qmail@web12102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107986 --- James Lawlor wrote: > *laughs* That poses an interesting question. What *do* you do with a > toddler who not only refuses to eat his peas, but will be turning into > a dangerous murderous beast in half an hour? Wait....do we know Lupin was BORN a werewolf? Wasn't he bitten at some point....and does anyone know when that unhappy event occurred? [and if this is an old question/answer, please accept my apologies!] MJ ===== -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Need a real estate professional? Visit my site at www.maritabush.com With Marita, great service comes first.....and lasts! From martita8304 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 28 17:56:05 2004 From: martita8304 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Marte=20Clausen?=) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 19:56:05 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Dumbledore's hold on Petunia [was Re: Lily's Family] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040728175605.52649.qmail@web25207.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 107987 It is claimed that Petunia is a squib and Dudley a wizard, mainly because Dudley felt the Dementors. But he did so not see them! That was stated clearly in the book... He felt them, and felt their horror, but did not know where this icy cold feeling came from. If Dudley was a wizard, Dumbledore couldn't have done anything about it. Marte From timnshell at hotmail.com Wed Jul 28 18:05:24 2004 From: timnshell at hotmail.com (Shell) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:05:24 -0000 Subject: GOF Question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107988 I'm listening to GOF again and I'm at the part where Harry is finished with his bath and is walking up the stairs back to his rooms. Now, in the book, he gets stuck in the step, loses the egg and the Mauraders Map. Why couldn't he just Accio the map and egg? It states that he pulled out his wand to wipe the map but it was too far out of reach. Well, didn't he learn the summoning charm for the first task? He could have just Accio'd the items and Snape wouldn't have been suspicious. What do you guys think? Shell From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Wed Jul 28 18:19:50 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:19:50 -0000 Subject: Snape's part in death of Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107989 > Potioncat: > > But let's face it. There are holes. Whether the trip into the > forest happened at either at 2000 or 2200 depends on whether you > base it on sunset or dinner. If dinner is happening, it has to be > even earlier than 2000. And as I read the events when the DA agrees > to clear the hallways, it doesn't take hours at all. In fact, I > dont' think it could take more than an hour. > > Someone used 1700 as a time for all this to start. I came up with > 1600 for the end of the exam (assuming 2 hours for it). And in the > past, IIRC, dinner was served at 1700. (Harry eats before going to > Occlumency IIRC) Would dinner be served for more than 2 hours? > > So I don't think any of the HPFGU-timelines can prove or disprove > that Snape was delaying. (But, boy, are they fun to read!) I agree > with Bookworm that JKR may not have worked out Snape's timeline. I > really do think he is a much less important character to her than to > many of us. > Potioncat, I wish to differ. JKR timeline is quite simple, consistent and well described in canon. There are only 3 facts that we need to remember: 1. The time of Umbridge, Harry and Hermione leaving the DADA office for the forest is dinnertime, and is most clearly before sunset ("sun falling towards the tops of the trees"). This is also the time Snape notifies the Order for the first time. 2. Harry & Co take off from the forest to London immediately after sunset ("twilight fell"). In Scotland in June this is around 2200. 3. Harry is back to Hogwarts at first light of dawn, which can be also placed quite accurately at 0400. All the rest is really not that important for the argument. You can play with dinnertime, making it 1700 or 2000 as you find reasonable. It will only affect the time Harry spent in the forest, and add or detract 3 hrs from the period Snape must have waited, but this period is quite long in any case. Similarly, you can ascribe any reasonable time for the travel time to London, or the time it took the Order members to reach the DoM, or the time it took them to battle the DEs, and so on. It doesn't make much difference for the end result. The time Snape had waited would still be at the very minimum 4 hrs after contacting HQ the first time, much more reasonably 5 hrs, and could easily be as long as 7 hrs. JKR made sure to highlight the above times. All three of them are mentioned right at the opening of the corresponding three chapters (Ch. 33, Ch. 34 and Ch. 37). I'd estimate she decided on this timing already when she wrote the outline of these chapters, even before OotP was actually written. I think it would be quite strange if JKR didn't notice how much time it takes Snape to become "worried" according to her timeline, since his actions and responsibility for Sirius death are questioned by Harry in the Ch. 37. I know, you are thinking about the order of the Potter's deaths in the Priori Incantatum, or the ages of the Charlie and Bill, or the number of Students at Hogwarts, but these cases are different. In all of them there was/is a glaring contradiction within canon. In our case there is no contradiction within canon. There's only a "contradiction" between canon and what you would like it to be. Blaming it on JKR's carelessness whenever you don't like canon will be the end of the term "canon" as we use it. Until JKR correct this "mistake", I consider it canon that Snape waited several critical hours before telling HQ that Harry is missing. Furthermore, all this haggling about the timeline does not change the fact that, when Snape first contacted HQ, he didn't bother to tell them that Harry had a false vision from Voldy's mind about Sirius held hostage in the DoM. And according to DD, Snape did realize this part. Avoiding just one of the above two mistakes would have likely prevented the DoM battle and Sirius' death. Neri From eternal_riddle at yahoo.com Wed Jul 28 18:28:51 2004 From: eternal_riddle at yahoo.com (Anastasia) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:28:51 -0000 Subject: LV, James and Lily [was Re: Lily's Family] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107990 > Celestina: > > Now regading Lily. If the importance of killing > > James and Harry was to terminate the bloodline of the one who > could > > defeat V, and to assure that if Harry died then James couldn't > > produce another offspring, then the killing of Lily wasn't > necessary > > because she is of a different geneaology. > > Jen: Here's where I agree with you, but in the opposite direction-- I > think Lily is the link to Gryffindor, and has a stong magical > heritage that gives her some special powers, and Harry as well. I > really like the idea that Voldemort told Lily to 'step aside', not > because he didn't think she mattered, but because he feared the > consequences of killing her. Perhaps he knew something about her > power to indicate killing her might bring some curse down on him. He > chose to kill her anyway, taking his chances, and obviously not > realizing Harry has the same power(s). Anastasia: You know, I have also thought about this: James AND Lily have escaped LV 3 times. Nevertheless, at Godric's Hollow LV seems not to care at all about killing Lily. Why????? Well, it's natural that he did kill James. James was duelling LV and the very best chance to get him out of the way was using Adava Kedavra on him. That's clear, especially as James was a serious threat. However, I doubt that LV was *afraid* of killing Lily. I think it is more the fact that he didn't consider her as *important*. She was muggleborn and seemed to him like... an annoying fly. If she really was the heir of Gryffindor, then LV would have to kill her so that she couldn't give birth to another child. However, if LV didn't want to kill her personally, than the fact that she has faced him 3(!) times must be due to her job. What if LV needed her for something once he finished with Harry? Couldn't she be an Unspeakable LV wanted to get the prophecy or some other information from afterwards? James seems to be a better candidate for a Gryffindor. Already the fact that we don't know anything about his backround is suspicious, isn't it? That's my two cent. Anastasia From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Jul 28 18:43:14 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:43:14 -0000 Subject: PRINCE, BLOOD,HALF In-Reply-To: <96773c88040728103824c91cc4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107991 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, James Lawlor wrote: > Kneasy: > > Now that's interesting. I can't find many examples of JKR using the > > term 'half blood' yet it turns up in regard to Remus and book 6. > > "Prince' though... perhaps that's what his parents called him when > > he was in lupine mode: > > "Here Prince! Good boy! Walkies!" > James: > *laughs* That poses an interesting question. What *do* you do with a > toddler who not only refuses to eat his peas, but will be turning into > a dangerous murderous beast in half an hour? > Hmm. There're so many fascinating details about the WW that JKR doesn't tell us. Can't think why. It's reasonable to assume that a toddler would transform into a werecub. Fluffy little thing with small, sharp teeth. Unlikely to be house-trained, so the first thing you do is roll up the rugs. Then put out the cat. Remove silver-ware from dining table (don't want a nasty accident, now do we?) and don protective gear as a precaution. Place cub in re-inforced play-pen with wire mesh top, remembering to add a plaything or two to keep him occupied and happy. Hamsters and rabbits come highly recommended. If he looks peaky stuff pieces of meat with worming tablets and poke them between the bars with a pair of long tongs. Unless the parent is also lycanthropic resist temptation to play games such as *Snap* and Hunt the Bloodvessel, though "I spy with my little eye - something beginning with M" is appropriate since it'll give you an indication of how soon he'll be back in human form. Remember, it's only once a month and these memories of your offspring's childhood activities are so precious; don't you agree? Kneasy From gregory_lynn at yahoo.com Wed Jul 28 18:47:45 2004 From: gregory_lynn at yahoo.com (gregory_lynn) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:47:45 -0000 Subject: A favor to ask re christian allegory, alchemy, and Stoned!Harry Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107992 Late last week I was catching up, if that's what you call it when you don't ever actually catch up, and there was a little discussion of the notion of Harry as the Philosopher's Stone incarnate, with a link to a summary post which I found fascinating. It got me thinking of the potential for Harry not as a Christ figure, but as a Moses figure. Then I was wondering how that would fit with the Stoned!Harry idea. Anyway, I want to do more research but have relatively little time so I'm hoping some of y'all can point me in the right direction. Where can I find more info about the process of making the Philosopher's Stone? Preferably with reference to the world of Harry Potter? In the Stoned!Harry summary post there was much discussion of beheadings. Where did this come from and where can I find more info? Incidentally, I think you can look at the trio as aspects of one person which would make Hermione the head not because she's smart but because she's the one who thinks and is responsible. So if there is a beheading, it could be the death of Hermione and Harry could be faced with the choice of surrendering potential immortality to resurrect her. Does anyone know a web site with a decent summary of the life of Moses? Not being a terribly religious person I don't know a whole lot more about him than the whole bullrushes, raised as a prince, led his people out of egypt and gave them the law business. Anyway, if anyone can point me in the right direction, I would appreciate it. Thanks, Gregory Lynn From devonturcotte at yahoo.ca Wed Jul 28 18:55:06 2004 From: devonturcotte at yahoo.ca (Devon) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:55:06 -0000 Subject: GOF Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107993 Shell, Huh. I'd never really thought about that before. I think there are a few explanations, all working in conjunction with one another. One, the Summoning Charm was still fairly new to Harry, so he probably didn't think of it right away. Two, he would have been caught up in the momentary panic of Snape finding him breaking several rules...again. Three, with that egg blasting Merperson (Merpeople?) song so loudly, he probably couldn't even think straight. Four, even if he HAD thought of it, Filch and Snape were there pretty quickly, and Harry would definitely have given himself away if he shouted a spell (voice recognition) that would bring the items to him (revealing his location). Just a few thoughts. :o) Devon From eternal_riddle at yahoo.com Wed Jul 28 18:55:28 2004 From: eternal_riddle at yahoo.com (Anastasia) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:55:28 -0000 Subject: Snape's part in death of Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107994 > Pippin: > In the Potterverse, poetry will always trump physics. JKR wanted > the vision at five pm so that the Ministry would be crowded, and > people would be eating dinner at Hogwarts (and not cluttering up > the corridors shortly thereafter), she wanted Harry to take off into > a blood red sunset, and she wanted his darkest hour to be > literally just before dawn. > > It's a toy universe, as I've said before. Some things really work > and others are just painted on. > > But one more point in favor of Snape; he wouldn't want to tell > Sirius that Harry was in trouble unless he was sure it was really > true. He might guess that whatever he said, Sirius would insist > on leaving the protection of Grimmauld Place to come to Harry's > aid. The last thing Snape needs is for Sirius to come roaring up > to Hogwarts to challenge Umbridge. He might have become a > hostage for real--or more likely, Dementor fodder. Anastasia: Good thinking, Pippin! Snape has to be *really* worried before he contacts HQ and sends someone after Harry. Sirius is sure to run to Harry's aid at once, even if he had to got to the (crowded) MoM. Even if Lupin and the others arrived at the MoM it would raise questions. They can't just say "Well, we think Potter is someway down there because you see, he has these strange visions sometimes, and now he believes Black is there with LV." IMO Snape thinks that he is the only one able to decide when it's worth taking the risk (and he may be, no matter how I love Sirius and Remus) and going to the Ministry. I don't think that Snape would immediately think about Harry using Thestrals. Only when he realized that it took Harry *too* much time to get back from the forest (and that can take 1 hour for the way in, 1 hour to struggle with Umbridge and perhaps to be found and rescued by the DA and 1 hour back = 3 hours) he arrives to think that Harry *might* be gone to London. *Might* as he still wants to search the forest for him. Probably Snape did a good job alerting the Order when he even wasn't sure what had happened. That's a lot more than Harry would have expected him to do, isn't it? I assume that many of us like to forget that it is a *book* we're talking about. There *are* flaws. JKR is human, folks! Anastasia From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Jul 28 19:52:03 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 19:52:03 -0000 Subject: Snape's part in death of Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107995 Neri: > Furthermore, all this haggling about the timeline does not change the > fact that, when Snape first contacted HQ, he didn't bother to tell > them that Harry had a false vision from Voldy's mind about Sirius > held hostage in the DoM. And according to DD, Snape did realize this > part. > > Avoiding just one of the above two mistakes would have likely > prevented the DoM battle and Sirius' death. > > Potioncat: To be honest, I didn't go upthread to review. As it is, my kids call me a HarryPotterHead and my husband thinks I have a cyber- boyfriend. (OK, men, which one of you is to be named in the suit?) "If" we are arguing time, with time being important in Snape's actions, then, yes, considering that JKR made an error "or" used her magic universe as someone else suggested, makes sense and is allowable. But, lets look at canon....not a timeline. OoP, chapter 37 p830 (US) "... He, like you attempted to contact Sirius at once. I should explain that members of the Order of the Phoenix have more reliable methods of communicating than the fire in Dolores Umbridge's office. Professor Snape found that Sirius was alive and safe in Grimmauld Place." OK, I can read to that to mean he made contact, explained the situation and determined that Sirius was alive and safe. You (impersonal you, of course) You can read it to mean that Snape simply asked "Are you alive and safe?" I'd love to elaborate here on how "I" think that would go, but it would appear sarcastic, and I am honestly not being sarcastic. But, see, we can both sincerely read this differently. (Just like the good old Sorting Hat.) To continue quotes: "When, however, you did not return from your trip into the forest with Dolores Umbridge, Professor Snape grew worried that you still believed Sirius to be a captive of Lord Voldermort's. He alerted certain Order members at once." We don't know when this is. He contacts Grimmauld Place the first time moments after leaving Umbridge's office.("at once") We do not know when he found out Potter, Umbridge and Granger had gone into the forest and not returned. Did he find out, wait a little then get worried? Or did he find out at one time that Harry had gone into the forest and had not returned? Canon does not tell us. But again we're told he contacted HQ "at once". To Continue quotes: " ...A Moody, N Tonks, K Shackelbolt and R Lupin were at headquarters when he made contact. All agreed to go to your aid at once. Professor Snape requested that Sirius remain behind, as he needed somebody to remain at headquarters to tell me what had happened, for I was due there at any moment. In the meantime he, Professor Snape, intended to search the forest for you." We don't know if Snape said, "Perhaps Potter is at the DoM, will you go look?" or if during Snape's report, one of the aurors said, "Let's go look in the DoM!" Somehow, Snape knows that DD is due "any moment" at Grimmauld Place. Did he talk to DD somewhere between calls to HQ? Is it a scheduled event? Did KS tell him during this conversation? Canon doesn't say. He requests that Black stay behind for those few moments to brief DD. And, while Black was to wait for DD, Snape was going to search the forest. I think "intended" here means "planned" and that he did indeed search. Black was to stay at HQ and Snape was to search the forest. I think, that Snape's intention was that if someone would wait at HQ to report to DD, Snape was free to go look for Potter. I know some take it to mean: he intended to, but didn't. Again, canon interpretation. Are both interpretations valid? Now, if all this is to make or refute the claim that Snape is the one responsible for Black's death. I don't buy it. I think that not having an Order Member at HQ waiting for DD, caused a delay in DD's arrival at the DoM and also contributed to loss of life. But I don't see the use in naming one person as being at fault. Mistakes were made by several people across a span of time. It's a war. People die. BTW, I just completely re-read this and realised I snipped the "other" mistake Neri mentions. I show that canon does not say whether Snape reported the false vision, or not, although I read it as he did. I no longer recall what the second error was. (Mind like a sieve!) Maybe we should ask JKR what she intended? Potioncat who hopes everyone knows this is all in fun From tookishgirl_111 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 28 19:53:07 2004 From: tookishgirl_111 at yahoo.com (tookishgirl_111) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 19:53:07 -0000 Subject: PRINCE, BLOOD, HALF In-Reply-To: <20040728174820.74217.qmail@web12102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107996 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Marita Jan wrote: > --- James Lawlor wrote: > > *laughs* That poses an interesting question. What *do* you do with a > > toddler who not only refuses to eat his peas, but will be turning into > > a dangerous murderous beast in half an hour? > > > Wait....do we know Lupin was BORN a werewolf? Wasn't he bitten at some > point....and does anyone know when that unhappy event occurred? > > [and if this is an old question/answer, please accept my apologies!] > > MJ > > > ===== > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------ > Need a real estate professional? Visit my site at www.maritabush.com > > With Marita, great service comes first.....and lasts! No, Lupin was not born a werewolf, but he was bitten as a child. "I was a very small boy when I received the bite. My parents tried everything, but in those days there was no cure," says Lupin (POA, US version, pg 352). But Lupin never says how young he actually was so it's anyone's guess (except maybe JKR's) - but my theory is that he was old enough to wander from his parents for at least a short time and possibley old enough to know better (he alludes to being foolhardy concerning his lycanthropy). Tooks - who wouldn't be shocked if Lupin was the HBP; I'd be pleased From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Jul 28 19:57:17 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 19:57:17 -0000 Subject: HBP Clues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107997 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "iamvine" wrote: Eleanor: > The discovery is made in 'Chamber' the book, not the actual Chamber. So Parseltongue is > entirely possible. Geoff: Amazing the difference to meaning the omission of a set of quotation marks can make........ From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Jul 28 20:03:47 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:03:47 -0000 Subject: JKR Speaks: Arthur Weasly will NOT be next Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107998 Mandy:"Are but do they? Remember there is no evidence that Lucius Malfoy is a DE, or that he works for Voldemort, and although Harry, DD and the Order know Lucius is not to be trusted do the rest of the WW? I don't think so." Huh? Lucius is in the can after being taken prisoner by Albus Dumbledore with a number of known Death Eaters, probably with his mask, in the MoM in the middle of the night. We'll have the testimony of Harry, Ron, Hermione, Luna, Neville, Dumbledore, Tonks, and Lupin. We don't know what a Priori Incantatem on Lucius's wand will show, but that may also be incriminating. If the rules in the WW allow the arrestees to be questioned under Veritaserum, it's all over for Lucius. How much evidence does it take? Your best point is that Lucius's money and influence may get him out of at least part of the trouble. People have beaten the rap under amazing circumstances as long as they have the gold, and Lucius does. People believe what they want to. OTOH, Voldemort is outed, Dumbledore and Harry are vindicated, and Fudge is disgraced. The balance of power in the wizard world has changed dramatically. The most influential person in the wizarding world knows exactly what Lucius is. Lucius will get out, but by escape. The remaining DE's may pull off a coup de main on Azkaban, but with Dumbledore restored as Chief Warlock, basically Chief Justice of the wizard world, I think even Lucius has gotten himself into something he can't get out of. Jim Ferer From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Jul 28 20:19:13 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:19:13 -0000 Subject: A favor to ask re christian allegory, alchemy, and Stoned!Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 107999 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gregory_lynn" wrote: Gregory Lynn: > Does anyone know a web site with a decent summary of the life of > Moses? Not being a terribly religious person I don't know a whole > lot more about him than the whole bullrushes, raised as a prince, led > his people out of egypt and gave them the law business. > Geoff: For "not being a terribly religious person", you've given a good summary! If you got hold of a modern translation of the Bible (New International or something similar) you could speed read the relevant bits of Exodus in a short while. Frankly, no parallels between Moses and Harry instantly hit me between the eyes. Geoff Who, as a Christian, does not believe in being a religious person anyway. There is a distinct difference between that and having a faith. From dk59us at yahoo.com Wed Jul 28 20:30:19 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:30:19 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's hold on Petunia [was Re: Lily's Family] In-Reply-To: <20040728175605.52649.qmail@web25207.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108000 Marte wrote: > It is claimed that Petunia is a squib and Dudley a wizard, mainly > because Dudley felt the Dementors. But he did so not see them! That > was stated clearly in the book... He felt them, and felt their > horror, but did not know where this icy cold feeling came from. If > Dudley was a wizard, Dumbledore couldn't have done anything about it. > > Marte Eustace_Scrubb: Well, really, what we know of Dudley's experience isn't that different from Harry's. >From OotP, Chapter 1: "[Harry] turned his head this way and that, trying to see something, but the darkness pressed on his eyes like a weightless veil.... Harry stood stock still, turning his sightless eyes left and right. The cold was so intense he was shivering all over; goose bumps had erupted up his arms and the hairs on the back of his neck were standing up - he opened his eyes to their fullest extent, staring blankly around, unseeing.... ...he strained his ears...he would hear them before he saw them...." Harry doesn't _see_ the dementors until after Dudley belts him and runs off and then only once he lights up the wand. We have no idea what Dudley did or did not see at that point. We only know that once Harry has dispatched one dementor with his patronus, he ran down the alley and found the other attempting to pry Dudley's arms off his face to administer the kiss. Afterwards, Dudley was in a far worse state than Harry had been in the presence of the dementor on the train in POA and at that point Harry had no idea what a dementor was, either (of course that one didn't actually try to kiss him). Dudley has no experience that we know of with the WW except for being Harry's cousin, so if he saw something his brain probably couldn't process it anyway. He's in shock when he's answering his parents' questions and his halting descriptions don't rule out that he saw something...then again, would Harry have seen anything without the wand light? So, I think the dementor experience isn't decisive evidence one way or the other on Dudley's being magical. I _do_ wonder though whether even Dumbledore could completely suppress any magic that might be in Dudley...which is proposed as part of his deal with Petunia to take Harry. But if anyone could come close, I would think it would be Dumbledore...and if Dudley does end up doing magic in HBP or Book 7, then the suppression wouldn't in fact have been completely successful. Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb, who's not sure he wants to see Dudley do magic but can't come up with a better candidate. From shirley2allie at hotmail.com Wed Jul 28 20:34:58 2004 From: shirley2allie at hotmail.com (Shirley) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:34:58 -0000 Subject: JKR Speaks: Arthur Weasly will NOT be next Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108002 Mandy: Plus we know Malfoy Sr. is going to be dead by the > end of book 7 so his rein would be short, just enough time cause some > delightful mayhem. > > Cheers Mandy Huh? Once again I may be showing my ignorance of all things HP/JKR (interviews), but exactly *how* do we know that Malfoy Sr. is going to be dead by the end of book 7? Shirley, curious From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 28 20:48:05 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:48:05 -0000 Subject: Snape's part in death of Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108003 Potioncat: > To be honest, I didn't go upthread to review. As it is, my kids > call me a HarryPotterHead and my husband thinks I have a cyber- > boyfriend. (OK, men, which one of you is to be named in the suit?) SSSusan: Whoa! Me, too! I wonder how many of us are in this position?? ["Let's see, can I squeeze in a speed read of 25 posts here before anyone notices I've left the room again??"] Potioncat provided some canon snippets: > But, lets look at canon....not a timeline. OoP, chapter 37 p830 > (US)"... He, like you attempted to contact Sirius at once. I > should explain that members of the Order of the Phoenix have more > reliable methods of communicating than the fire in Dolores > Umbridge's office. Professor Snape found that Sirius was alive and > safe in Grimmauld Place." > > "When, however, you did not return from your trip into the forest > with Dolores Umbridge, Professor Snape grew worried that you still > believed Sirius to be a captive of Lord Voldermort's. He alerted > certain Order members at once." > > We don't know when this is. He contacts Grimmauld Place the first > time moments after leaving Umbridge's office.("at once") We do not > know when he found out Potter, Umbridge and Granger had gone into > the forest and not returned. Did he find out, wait a little then > get worried? Or did he find out at one time that Harry had gone > into the forest and had not returned? Canon does not tell us. But > again we're told he contacted HQ "at once". > > " ...A Moody, N Tonks, K Shackelbolt and R Lupin were at > headquarters when he made contact. All agreed to go to your aid at > once. Professor Snape requested that Sirius remain behind, as he > needed somebody to remain at headquarters to tell me what had > happened, for I was due there at any moment. In the meantime he, > Professor Snape, intended to search the forest for you." SSSusan: We can argue 'til we're blue in the face about whether Snape behaved responsibly, and I don't think anyone but JKR [as usual] really knows with absolute certainty. *Personally* when I read these bits of OotP originally, I was very conscious of DD saying all these "at onces" and felt that it was quite intentional, as if he was trying gently but very firmly to get it to sink in to Harry that he, DD, believed Snape had truly acted with all reasonableness, without undue delay. Again, we can argue about whether DD is being schnookered by Snape, but *if* we accept that DD trusts Snape with reason, as oh-so- gullible-I do, then I think it's understandable why some of us took it to heart when DD said, in so many words, that Snape really DID do all he could. (Timeline or no timeline.) Potioncat again: > Somehow, Snape knows that DD is due "any moment" at Grimmauld > Place. Did he talk to DD somewhere between calls to HQ? Is it a > scheduled event? Did KS tell him during this conversation? Canon > doesn't say. He requests that Black stay behind for those few > moments to brief DD. And, while Black was to wait for DD, Snape > was going to search the forest. SSSusan: Again, I took Snape's request for Sirius to remain at GP as a being a truly benevolent action [did I just say "truly benevolent" and "Snape" in the same sentence?!?]. I did NOT read it as his *goading* Sirius, saying it because he knew if he said it out loud Sirius would do just the opposite. Rather, I interpreted it that Snape was trying to get Sirius to understand *why* he needed to stay put--because DD would need him. Once again, HPfGUers may just disagree on Snape's motivations here, and I don't think we can yet know who's right. Potioncat: > Now, if all this is to make or refute the claim that Snape is the > one responsible for Black's death. I don't buy it. I think that > not having an Order Member at HQ waiting for DD, caused a delay in > DD's arrival at the DoM and also contributed to loss of life. > > But I don't see the use in naming one person as being at fault. > Mistakes were made by several people across a span of time. It's a > war. People die. SSSusan: I agree wholeheartedly, Potioncat. BELLATRIX LESTRANGE is the one who holds the blame for Sirius' death. Second in line, *I* would say, is Sirius himself for: 1) disregarding Snape's instruction/suggestion/request [take your pick]; and 2) *possibly* underestimating Bellatrix in the DoM. IMO, the other folks, the other bits & pieces of what happened, were unfortunate elements of circumstance that came together to contribute to the death and to make *lots* of people either feel bad or look bad. DD takes some blame; Harry didn't use Sirius' mirror and feels terrible guilt; Snape looked suspicious to some because of the amount of time which seemed to pass. Were any of those three RESPONSIBLE for Sirius' death? Not in my mind, no. Siriusly Snapey Susan From patientx3 at aol.com Wed Jul 28 20:49:51 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:49:51 -0000 Subject: Snape's part in death of Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108004 Neri wrote: > Furthermore, all this haggling about the timeline does not change the > fact that, when Snape first contacted HQ, he didn't bother to tell > them that Harry had a false vision from Voldy's mind about Sirius > held hostage in the DoM. And according to DD, Snape did realize this > part. > > Avoiding just one of the above two mistakes would have likely > prevented the DoM battle and Sirius' death. Potioncat replied: >>[snip] lets look at canon....not a timeline. OoP, chapter 37 p830 US "... He, like you attempted to contact Sirius at once. I should explain that members of the Order of the Phoenix have more reliable methods of communicating than the fire in Dolores Umbridge's office. Professor Snape found that Sirius was alive and safe in Grimmauld Place." OK, I can read to that to mean he made contact, explained the situation and determined that Sirius was alive and safe. You (impersonal you, of course) You can read it to mean that Snape simply asked "Are you alive and safe?" I'd love to elaborate here on how "I" think that would go, but it would appear sarcastic, and I am honestly not being sarcastic. But, see, we can both sincerely read this differently. (Just like the good old Sorting Hat.) << HunterGreen: OotP does not specify either way if he told Sirius (and whoever else was there) about the vision. Even if he didn't though, that doesn't mean he was acting maliciously. For one thing, we don't know what this 'method' of communication is. If if is using portraits, then it would have been too complicated to try and pass on a messege, asking Phineas to just see if Sirius is there would be much simpler. If there is a better, more direct method of communication, then maybe Snape was trying to avoid Sirius jumping up and wanting to run down there immediately and rescue Harry (we don't know if Sirius would actually do that, but Snape could very easily *think* that he would do that). At this point the only danger Harry is in is the dangers of being in Umbridge's company and being in the forest, and Snape doesn't even know about the forest part. For all he knows, Harry is being held in her office by herself and several Slytherin students. Not a good situation for Harry, but Snape doesn't care about that. Harry's not in any danger as far as he knows, and even if it did occur to Snape that Harry might be planning a trip to London (which is a strong possibility, Snape understands *that* part of Harry's mind), there's not really any chance of him leaving from her office, is there? Potioncat: >> To continue quotes: "When, however, you did not return from your trip into the forest with Dolores Umbridge, Professor Snape grew worried that you still believed Sirius to be a captive of Lord Voldermort's. He alerted certain Order members at once." We don't know when this is. He contacts Grimmauld Place the first time moments after leaving Umbridge's office.("at once") We do not know when he found out Potter, Umbridge and Granger had gone into the forest and not returned. Did he find out, wait a little then get worried? Or did he find out at one time that Harry had gone into the forest and had not returned? Canon does not tell us. But again we're told he contacted HQ "at once". << HunterGreen: This is where the timeline problems could have arised. Snape is called to Umbridge's office, Harry sends him the little messege (about Sirius in the DoM), Snape checks on it, finds out its not true, but after that, we don't know what he did. We don't know when (or how) he found out that Harry and Hermione and Umbridge went into the forest, and we don't know how long he would consider 'too long'. Neri is right, the three or four hours it takes before the order is called to the MoM (between sunset--10pm--and the time they arrive at the DoM, which is probably between 12:30am and 2:30am) is quite long by anyone's mind (and at dark, no less). However, this is assuming that Snape found that Harry was going into the forest at eight or nine when he left. If he found out because he went back up to check on the Slytherins and found them hexed, then woke up them, and *they* were unsure of how long ago Harry went into the forest (and remember, Snape can't show a great zeal to find this information out), it could explain the missing time. How about this: -Around 7 or 8pm, Snape contacts the order and finds out Sirius is fine. -10pm, he hears that Malfoy (and the other Slytherins) are missing from the commonroom (from another Slytherin who seeks Snape out because he is the head-of-house). -10 to 11pm: He arrives at Umbridge's office, finds them all unconscious. He wakes (one or all) of them up, and asks what happened to Harry and the others and who hexed them. He is told that Harry and Hermione went into the forest with Umbridge, and the others hexed them. (the Slytherins, being unconsious all this time, may think all of this *just* happened). -11:30pm: In order not to appear suscipsious, he takes the Slytherins to the hospital wing and leaves (perhaps under the guise that he's going to track down Harry and the others to punish them) -Midnight: He finds out that Harry and the others are not in their common room, and therefore duduces that he must still be in the forest. -12:30am: Just to be sure, he contacts the order, who, after arguing with Sirius about going and hearing the *whole* story, leave 'at once', which puts their leaving time at about 1am, and their arrival in the DoM (since they'd have to Floo or appaperate to the main hall) at about 1:30am (could be later depending how much time it took them to find Harry and the others since they were no longer in the hall of prophecies). Potioncat: >> To Continue quotes: " ...A Moody, N Tonks, K Shackelbolt and R Lupin were at headquarters when he made contact. All agreed to go to your aid at once. Professor Snape requested that Sirius remain behind, as he needed somebody to remain at headquarters to tell me what had happened, for I was due there at any moment. In the meantime he, Professor Snape, intended to search the forest for you." We don't know if Snape said, "Perhaps Potter is at the DoM, will you go look?" or if during Snape's report, one of the aurors said, "Let's go look in the DoM!" << HunterGreen: I get the feeling that it was more their idea than Snape's to go the DoM. Snape wouldn't be considering searching the forest if he didn't think there was a good chance Harry was in there. Besides, at this point, it seemed rather unlikely that Harry left the grounds at all. I don't think it occured to Snape that six children would leave the grounds on Thestrals. From the non-reader's point of view, it was most likely that something happened to Harry in the forest and that's why he hasn't come back. The aurors were going to the DoM to *make sure* Harry and the others weren't there, which is a strong reason why Sirius *should not* have come. For some reason the MoM was deserted that night, but if someone *had* been there, it would be rather hard to explain what Sirius was doing with them, and they (the auror's) would most likely have to pretend to 'capture' him and let him get sent back to Azkaban. Potioncat: >>Somehow, Snape knows that DD is due "any moment" at Grimmauld Place. Did he talk to DD somewhere between calls to HQ? Is it a scheduled event? << I'm thinking its a scheduled event. Dumbledore, wandering around in his fugitive state, would be smart to give the order certain times he's going to be around, so they know when they can contact him. Either that or he's sleeping at GP and returns every early morning around the same time, which could be possible. (Dumbledore does sleep right?) Potioncat: >>Now, if all this is to make or refute the claim that Snape is the one responsible for Black's death. I don't buy it. I think that not having an Order Member at HQ waiting for DD, caused a delay in DD's arrival at the DoM and also contributed to loss of life. But I don't see the use in naming one person as being at fault. Mistakes were made by several people across a span of time. It's a war. People die.<< HunterGreen: I agree. The amount of time it took the order to get there is unfortunate, but I think it can be blamed more on the fact that it was astounding enough that Harry was able/wanted to get to the DoM than on Snape delaying. Remember, Snape didn't know that Harry tried to contact Sirius and got Kreacher (he could just think that Harry *planned* to contact Sirius and was caught before he got the chance). He may consider Harry rash enough to want to run off to London to save Sirius himself, but at this point Harry doesn't have his broom (the school brooms are probably locked up at this time of night), and the Knight Bus, I assume, will not come in the middle of a forest. Harry would probably have to go to the *front* of the school to catch it. Mistakes were made, I just don't see any of them being Snape's. There was no way for him to know that Harry was going to a).Get out of Umbridge's office, b). Decide to go to London, and c). Find a way to get there. It was all Harry's fault for running off without thinking of going back to Snape first to see if he understood the messege (and perhaps already contacted the order), and Dumbledore's fault for not telling Harry than Voldemort might try and lure him to the DoM. From luckdragon64 at yahoo.ca Wed Jul 28 18:20:40 2004 From: luckdragon64 at yahoo.ca (Brenda) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:20:40 -0000 Subject: Snape a vampire? (was Snape's Patronus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108005 > Pippin wrote: > Vampire threads...they just won't die, will they? If Jo wants to put > a stake through their heart, she's going to have to do better than > "Erm...I don't think so." > > She does occasionally give hints that can be interpreted in more > than one way. The clearest example I can find is this one: > > http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/1999/0999-barnesnoble > -staff.htm > Luckdragon64 writes: The url did not work for me. Has anyone thought about the etymology of Snape's given name? Severus ie) Sever: Could his role be to sever relations between muggles and pure bloods or sever the tie that binds Harry to Voldemort. Severe: Is intimidating and lacks empathy. Punishes often. Strict.Brought up by a severe father. or maybe just sever us in our jugular!! said with tongue in cheek waiting for the next anti-vampire theory attack. P.S. Spell survives backwards and remove the IV and you get SEVRUS. Hmmm. From luckdragon64 at yahoo.ca Wed Jul 28 18:30:24 2004 From: luckdragon64 at yahoo.ca (Brenda) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:30:24 -0000 Subject: HBP Clues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108006 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scott_craft_2000" wrote: > When JKR cut out the HBP storyline, could it be that finds a wall > with the information on it, or could it be something the Tom Riddle > tells him about his own past or about Harry's past. Any comments? > > "scott_craft_2000" Luckdragon64 writes: I think the clue is when Dumbledore tells Harry that only a true Gryffindor could pull the sword out of the hat. My theory is that JKR had planned on Dumbledore explaining to Harry that he is the true heir of Gryffindor and his learning about his heritage will include learning that Godric was a half blood descendant of both King Arthur and Merlin ("All pure bloods are related at some point") What do you think?? From maritajan at yahoo.com Wed Jul 28 18:31:50 2004 From: maritajan at yahoo.com (Marita Jan) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:31:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's hold on Petunia [was Re: Lily's Family] In-Reply-To: <20040728154724.21867.qmail@web50109.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040728183150.80733.qmail@web12102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 108007 --- Magda Grantwich wrote: > [snip] > I believe in that moment Petunia felt closer to Lily than she ever > had in her life before or would ever feel after. And that's why they > kept Harry. I wish I could ascribe such warm feelings to Petunia, it would make her more sympathetic, at least in my eyes. I think the Dursley's are a lot more familiar with the WW than they should be. Especially Vernon....he seems to know a lot about it for someone who just has a sis-in-law who's never talked about. Just what did Petunia tell him, since she hates her sister and she and Vernon both pretend she doesn't have a sister? Something's missing.......I mean, if all they know about the WW is that Lily was a witch, and what DD wrote in the letter he left with Harry, how can they be expected to explain the WW to Harry, even supposing they'd been predisposed to do so? And yet....Hagrid is FURIOUS when he finds out the Dursley's haven't explained anything or told Harry anything about the WW. Like I said....something's missing. And I hope we get some sort of answers in HBP. MJ ===== -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Need a real estate professional? Visit my site at www.maritabush.com With Marita, great service comes first.....and lasts! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From maritajan at yahoo.com Wed Jul 28 18:35:19 2004 From: maritajan at yahoo.com (Marita Jan) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:35:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] GOF Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040728183519.67668.qmail@web12103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 108008 --- Shell wrote: > I'm listening to GOF again and I'm at the part where Harry is > finished with his bath and is walking up the stairs back to his > rooms. Now, in the book, he gets stuck in the step, loses the egg and > the Mauraders Map. Why couldn't he just Accio the map and egg? It > states that he pulled out his wand to wipe the map but it was too far > out of reach. Well, didn't he learn the summoning charm for the > first task? He could have just Accio'd the items and Snape wouldn't > have been suspicious. > > What do you guys think? MJ: I think he was still trying to stay hidden under the InvCloak and it (I'm guessing) would have given him away to have things zooming to him (and then disappearing) under the cloak. MJ ===== -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Need a real estate professional? Visit my site at www.maritabush.com With Marita, great service comes first.....and lasts! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From patientx3 at aol.com Wed Jul 28 20:56:59 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:56:59 -0000 Subject: Snape a vampire? (was Snape's Patronus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108009 Pippin wrote: >> As for Snape's dietary habits: Jo has carefully explained, and shown us in canon, that the Hogwarts House Elves can prepare meals for all dietary requirements. Jo has also said little in canon about what vampires can or can't eat. We know that they have a taste for blood and an aversion to garlic. That's all. Perhaps Snape doesn't eat at Grimmauld Place because telling Molly to hold the garlic would make her suspicious? << HunterGreen: Good point about the house-elves making special meals for Snape (perhaps very, very, raw meat?), but all Vampire theories aside, can you see a non-Vampire Snape wanting to eat at Grimmauld Place? I can't see Snape wanting to sit at eat with the company of Molly, Lupin, Fred, George, Hermione, Ron, (Harry, later on), and Sirius Black of all people, no matter *how* hungry he might be. From cincimaelder at yahoo.com Wed Jul 28 21:01:42 2004 From: cincimaelder at yahoo.com (cincimaelder) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:01:42 -0000 Subject: JKR Speaks: Arthur Weasly will NOT be next Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108010 > Mandy again: > So we have Lucius Malfoy as hero to the WW. Or at least an up- > standing member of the community. MAE now: I guess it could happen, but I don't think Malfoy was a hero/respected even before he was caught as a DE. I think many people feared him, because he was a bully and threw his money around. > It all depend on how Lucius manages to wrangle out of Azkaban (he > will) and if he can some how explain away his participation in the MAE again: I think that all the DEs will escape now that the dementors are gone. At that point he will go and stand by VM's side. I think before the end of the books, he will have to have a battle, perhaps he will fight Arthur W, and maybe to the death. > Lucius could somehow show he was at the MoM not fighting DD, but > assisting DD, not as member of the Order obviously, but as an MAE now: A pretty hard sell considering he went in wearing the DE garb. From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Wed Jul 28 21:34:58 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:34:58 -0400 Subject: Neville as HBP? (was Re: HBP again!) Message-ID: <000e01c474ea$bbf28920$5efae2d1@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 108011 Shannon asked: "What if the HBP is Neville? He has always had a strong presence in the books. His parents were in the Order. From what I have read, he comes from a long line of wizards." DuffyPoo now: The only problem I can see is that, in CoS, Ron states that Neville is a pure-blood. "Look at Neville Longbottom -- He's pure-blood and he can hardly stand a cauldron the right way up." I was just noting the other day, if there is one thing all these wizard kids know, it is what everyone else's blood status is. Not the Muggle-borns, like Hermione and Dean Thomas, or Harry, who was raised outside the WW, but the kids who were raised in the WW seem to know everyone's blood-status. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MadameSSnape at aol.com Wed Jul 28 21:50:15 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:50:15 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Switching of MoMArthur Weasly will NOT be next Ministe... Message-ID: <105.4c84a4e6.2e397997@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 108012 In a message dated 7/28/2004 5:56:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ryokas at hotmail.com writes: > I have one question. Why are we assuming that there WILL be a new MOM in the > next 2 books. > > Melissa Impeccable proof of Voldemort's return hard after a year of agressive Ministry policies saying he hasn't is going to hit everyone who believed in them hard. I gather that the theories say Fudge might burn out or such and resign as a result or the WW might decide that a mistake of such monumental proportions is proof of incompetence and throw him out of office. ========================= Sherrie here: JKR specifically said there will be a new Minister for Magic, in her World Book Day chat back in March. Of course, she didn't specify WHEN... Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Jul 28 22:11:29 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:11:29 -0000 Subject: Sirius's part in Sirius's death was Re: Snape's part in death of Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108013 > SSSusan: > I agree wholeheartedly, Potioncat. BELLATRIX LESTRANGE is the one who holds the blame for Sirius' death. Second in line, *I* would say, is Sirius himself for: 1) disregarding Snape's > instruction/suggestion/request [take your pick]; and 2) *possibly* underestimating Bellatrix in the DoM. IMO, the other folks, the other bits & pieces of what happened, were unfortunate elements of circumstance that came together to contribute to the death and to make *lots* of people either feel bad or look bad. < You left out 3) underestimating Kreacher. JKR has said we'll understand why Sirius had to die. I think that means it wasn't a random killing. Snape's involvement is a sideshow. JKR is laughing to herself while we argue about whether Snape is Harry's nemesis, or his guardian angel, or just a really unpleasant guy with a job to do. Bella (or whoever, canon does not say explicitly that she killed Black) had a motive for killing Sirius. Consider--with the last of the Blacks dead, Kreacher could leave the house, thus escaping further questioning. What did he know? Something about the Malfoys? Or something about someone *in* the house? Pippin From MmeBurgess at msn.com Wed Jul 28 22:27:18 2004 From: MmeBurgess at msn.com (Angela Burgess) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:27:18 -0000 Subject: HBP Clues In-Reply-To: <002e01c4744a$287ed860$2201a8c0@mami> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108014 > MamiBunny: > I think it is possible that in book 6, Jo will bring Dean's story to the plot, and that the HBP could be Dean Thomas. > Cheers, > MamiBunny > I agreed with you just two days ago, but then someone pointed out to me that in the same Extra where JKR talks about Dean's background, she says that she cut Dean's story in favor of Neville's because Neville's story was more important. So now, I don't know what to think. Angela From drednort at alphalink.com.au Wed Jul 28 22:42:17 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:42:17 +1000 Subject: Timelines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4108B869.1101.2BB7945@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 108015 Just a quick note to address something that may have already been mentioned, but if so, I haven't seen it. I have seen a number of posts using real world times for sunrise/sunset, etc to analyse timelines for events on the list recently. All I have seen seem to be using 'Muggle time'. There's a potential problem with that. Does the Wizarding World use Daylight Savings? Muggle Britain does - but it's a fairly recent development. I think it's potentially problematic to assume that Wizarding Britain does as well. This has implications for the current Grimmauld Place/Ministy of Magic timeline thread - because that's an event that occurred in summer. The times I've seen people using for sunrise/sunset etc are daylight savings times. If the Wizarding World doesn't use daylight savings, those times are off by an hour. It's just something for people to consider (including me - all the posts I've previously done on astronomy in Harry Potter have also used 'Muggle Time' and for one in particular, that is a potential problem). So, does the Wizarding World use daylight savings? [Actually equally valid questions could be asked if Hogwarts even uses time based on the same meridians as Muggle Britain - they could be on 'Hogsmeade Mean Time', which depending on where Hogwarts is would be offset from GMT by a period of minutes, and would be horribly confusing...] Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 28 23:00:20 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:00:20 -0000 Subject: Snape's part in death of Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108016 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > ...edited... > > Shaun? Care to give us some times for all this? I'm assuming > it's at or near the summer solstice and that Hogwarts is well > north of Edinburgh. That would put sunset after 10:00 PM, but I'm > not sure by how much. > > ...edited... > > Pippin Asian_lovr2: Let's see if Shaun's data matches mine. For reference I took the coordinates of area (1a) on my map of the location of Hogwarts (Northwest of Iverness). http://www.homestead.com/BlueMoonMarket/Files/Hogwarts/UK-Hogwarts.htm Roughly, 57d 45' 00" N by 4d 36' 00" W Date: June 15, 1996 (not perfect but very close) The following information is provided for Scotland (longitude W4.6, latitude N57.8): Saturday 15 June 1996 Universal Time -SUN- Begin civil twilight 02:04 (am) Sunrise 03:17 (am) Sun transit 12:19 Sunset 21:21 (9:21pm) End civil twilight 22:34 (10:34pm) -MOON- Moonset 19:22 on preceding day Moonrise 03:32 Moon transit 11:53 Moonset 20:17 Moonrise 04:17 on following day Phase of the Moon on 15 June: waning crescent with (ZERO) 0% of the Moon's visible disk illuminated. New Moon on 16 June 1996 at 01:36 Universal Time. http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/RS_OneDay.html - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Make careful note of how early and late Twilight occurs, even the Sunrise/Sunset times are much more extreme than I would have expected. Everyone's estimate seem close on Sunset, but far off on Morning Twilight and Sunrise; 2:04am and 3:17am. That trims a couple hours off the estimates. Sorry to 'steal your thunder' Shaun, but I had aleady looked it up for my local sunrise/sunset and decided as long as I had the address to the US Naval website, I might as well look up Scotland. Plus, I had my E-Maps as a quick reference. I do have more to say on this issue, and find this one of the better discussion in a while. Hope this data can help you all resolve the timeline a little closer, and I look forward to adding my ADDITIONAL two cents later. With apologies to the List-Elves for not making a more on canon topic post. Steve/asian_lovr2 - soon to be B_BoyMN From jsummerill at summerillj.freeserve.co.uk Wed Jul 28 23:54:45 2004 From: jsummerill at summerillj.freeserve.co.uk (jotwo2003) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:54:45 -0000 Subject: Most burning Snape question? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108017 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mnaper2001" wrote: You lucky thing. This is the Snape question I would most like to ask JKR and it doesn't even mention the name Snape. It's so ambiguous that I think you could get quite a lot of information from her. Petunia says she heard "that awful boy" telling Lily about the Dementors. Harry assumes she means his dad but Petunia is "horribly flustered" and never confirms this, so a) was it James b) if not, when will we find out who it was c) in the meantime when and where did Petunia overhear and d) if it was at the Evanses' home did Lily invite the boy or did he just turn up? If you don't have time to ask all of it, then a) and b) are the vital questions to ask, as c) and d) are less essential because they are just to elicit further details. I class this as a Snape question because there has been a discussion about who this boy was. A lot of fans just assume, like Harry, that it is James. Others, like me, suspect it was someone else, and Snape is one of the candidates. We need JKR to confirm one way or the other if it wasn't James. I think it wasn't James because I find it suspicious how it is left hanging. Also she has a habit of hiding things up her sleeve by not giving the full information about people e. g. Sirius refers to the Lestranges in GOF and does not mention the important fact that Mrs Lestrange is his cousin so that Bellatrix is a surprise in OOP. Again, it's a line that's likely to be overlooked by the casual reader, such as Dumbledore's seemingly throwaway gag about Trelawney making her second true prophecy and the room full of champerpots, both of which turn out to be significant. If she says no, it isn't James, then this opens an interesting line of debate for fandom. IMHO it's Snape, but I'm sure others disagree. I think this quotation could be evidence for some connection between Snape and Lily and that is why I would like her to answer it. I came up with part b) of the question because if JKR answers book 7, then this could be evidence that the awful boy and Lily talking has some connection to the revelations about Lily that are supposed to be in books 5 and 7 and/or the infamous Snape and love question which JKR was "stunned" about, and said readers "will find out why I'm so stunned if they read book 7". If you haven't guessed by now, I am one of those fans who think it is possible, even probable, that Snape was in love with Lily. Parts c) and d) were added to try and get information about Lily's attitude towards Snape or whether it was unrequited. If JKR said that Lily invited the boy to her home then this suggests that Lily was at least friendly with Snape, whereas if the boy turned up uninvited it implies that Lily did not know him that well, and points more towards the unrequited love theory. I don't mean to sound big headed but if you want to get information from JKR about the was Snape in love or friends with Lily theory then I think this question is your best bet. If you ask something more direct then she will probably say no, I can't tell you, as she did in the Paxman interview. With this question I think she would be able to answer it without spoiling the plot. Hope you don't mind me going on like this but I wanted to make my reasoning clear. Another Snape questions I'd ask is: Is Snape a vampire? I interpreted her response to 'Is there a connection between Snape and vampires?' in the March chat as a no, but others thought it could be interpreted as Snape is a vampire but he has no connections with others of his kind. This question could pin her down to a definite no or a wait and see answer. I'd also ask: Is there some significance to bats in the Harry Potter series, because you mention them in Quidditch through the Ages and there is a bat in Diagon Alley and Quirrell mentions them in the first film and a flock of them in the POA film. I'd ask this because there is a theory that Snape is a bat animagus because of the bat descriptions applied to him, like Sirius was described as dog-like. I really hope you have a good time in Edinburgh and get to ask some Snape questions. JoTwo > Laura: > > Hey there, this is a bit OT but I had the most *amazing* letter > this > > morning containing tickets to meet JKR at the Edinburgh book > festival > > on Aug. 15!!!!! > > > > I've already decided I'm asking her a question on Snape as not many > > people ask good Snape questions when she does stuff like this, plus > > he's my *favourite* character. But I can't think of a good enough > > question, one that she won't say "I can't reveal that yet", that's > > never been asked before, and that maybe has a couple of questions > > sneaked into one ;) Any ideas? This is what I've got so far: > > > > 1) Is Snape a pure blood? > > 2) Why did he join/leave the Deatheaters? > > 3) Has he ever been married/engaged? > > 4) Will he ever get the DADA position? > > 5) Why did he flinch in GOF when Lucius was named as a DE in the > > hospital wing? > > > > I really can't think of any more, I'm too excited to think! She > > probably won't answer most of these anyway. I need other fans' > help, > > I've already asked the snapesupport lot. Has anyone got a list of > > Snape questions they really want answered? (Stupid question really) > > And did anyone else get lucky? If so what are you gonna ask? > > > From drednort at alphalink.com.au Wed Jul 28 23:53:37 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:53:37 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's part in death of Sirius In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4108C921.17823.2FCCABD@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 108018 On 28 Jul 2004 at 23:00, Steve wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > Asian_lovr2: > > Let's see if Shaun's data matches mine. Very close - as expected - the only difference is my calculations yield Civil Twilight as starting three minutes earlier in the morning and ending three minutes later at night (I suspect the US Navy uses a slightly different definition of Civil Twilight than is standard). Not that relevant. And the Summer Time issue I mentioned earlier also needs to be considered - you've used Universal Time, which I think is probably correct for the Wizarding World, but I don't think the possibility of daylight savings can be eliminated. > Sorry to 'steal your thunder' Shaun, but I had aleady looked it up for > my local sunrise/sunset and decided as long as I had the address to > the US Naval website, I might as well look up Scotland. Plus, I had my > E-Maps as a quick reference. Not a problem - if you can get the data, great. It's just I can get a lot more data on occasions when that's relevant - for example, the magnitude of Mars on a particular date - quite easily. There's also issues, just for the record - that there are two forms of twilight - civil and nautical. Civil is what normal people (ie non-astronomers) normally refer to as twilight and it's what I would normally expect JKR to be using - however, one of her references - I haven't time to check it right now, IIRC, really seems to indicate Nautical Twilight may have been involved on this occasion - and that is slightly problematic astronomically as as far north as Hogwarts is, you don't really *get* out of Nautical twilight in mid-June! Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 29 00:05:12 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:05:12 -0000 Subject: Sirius's part in Sirius's death was Re: Snape's part in death of Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108019 SSSusan: > > I agree wholeheartedly, Potioncat. BELLATRIX LESTRANGE is > > the one who holds the blame for Sirius' death. Second in line, > > *I* would say, is Sirius himself for: 1) disregarding Snape's > > instruction/suggestion/request [take your pick]; and 2) > > *possibly* underestimating Bellatrix in the DoM. IMO, the > > other folks, the other bits & pieces of what happened, were > > unfortunate elements of circumstance that came together to > > contribute to the death and to make *lots* of people either > > feel bad or look bad. Pippin: > You left out 3) underestimating Kreacher. JKR has said we'll > understand why Sirius had to die. I think that means it wasn't a > random killing. Snape's involvement is a sideshow. JKR is > laughing to herself while we argue about whether Snape is > Harry's nemesis, or his guardian angel, or just a really > unpleasant guy with a job to do. SSSusan again: Yikes--I certainly did! That was a huge oversight on my part, because of course you're right that he played a role in this death as large as any of the others outside of Bellatrix & Sirius himself. Pippin: > Bella (or whoever, canon does not say explicitly that she killed > Black) had a motive for killing Sirius. Consider--with the last of > the Blacks dead, Kreacher could leave the house, thus escaping > further questioning. What did he know? Something about the > Malfoys? Or something about someone *in* the house? SSSusan: Hee!! Look at you, Pippin--you didn't even use this perfect opening to openly revisit your position that it was ESE!Lupin "pulling the trigger" on Sirius! :-) I will concede that **if** Bella didn't fire the final curse, then of course we'll have to open up the Blame Game to whomever it was who did. [NEVER Lupin-no, no!! He's ESS! Lupin (that is, Ever-So-Sweet!Lupin).] What is it that you suspect Kreacher knows that hasn't come out yet? DD already believes, after using his "persuasive" techniques on Kreacher, that he was acting that night on the Malfoys' instructions. Do you think he knows *more* about them, or do you think the "someone" in the house that Kreacher knows "something" about is Lupin? Siriusly Snapey Susan From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 29 00:06:07 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:06:07 -0000 Subject: GOF Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108020 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shell" wrote: > I'm listening to GOF again and I'm at the part where Harry is > finished with his bath and is walking up the stairs back to his > rooms. Now, in the book, he gets stuck in the step, loses the egg and > the Mauraders Map. Why couldn't he just Accio the map and egg? > ...edited... > > What do you guys think? > > > Shell Asian_lovr2: I think the answer is as simple as this, he panicked. He was in pain, stuck in the step, the egg had already given away his location, Filch was coming, his heart was pounding fit explode, in the heat of the moment, he just didn't think of it. Away from the 'heat of the moment' we can all come up with prefect plans, but in our own lives, how many times have we blown it on the spot, and come up with the best solution after the fact. Just human nature I think. I'm sure Harry kick himself a hundred times for not thinking of the Accio charm. I'm sure, off the page, the first thing Hermione said was, 'why didn't you just summon it?'. Easy for her to say. The are probably other explanations just as good as mine, or maybe better, but that's how I explain it to my own satisfaction. Steve/Asian_lovr2 - soon to be b_boymn From snow15145 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 29 00:10:50 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:10:50 -0000 Subject: The Founders Four was Re: PRINCE, BLOOD,HALF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108021 Snow (me) previously: Slytherin- pureblood, Griffindor-half blood, Ravenclaw-possible squib parentage (seeing as she represents book knowledge), Hufflepuff- muggle born. > Shirley: I'm assuming that you're not being completely literal with > this comparison, as we can recall that Ernie MacMillan (who is > Hufflepuff) can trace his "family back through nine generations of > witches and warlocks" and his "blood's as pure as anyone's" (CoS, ch > 11, US paperback, p200). So Hufflepuff is not made up entirely of > muggleborns. > Snow: I was not trying to be literal in the sense that each student would be sorted into the house that best represents his bloodline, only that each house would be a representative of "A" bloodline. There are four possible bloodlines that I can think of and it would be very unique of JKR to have the four founders of each house as a representative of each of the different blood lineage; pureblood, half blood, magical person born to a squib, magical person born to a muggle. It is interesting to apply this thought when reading the sorting hat's new song in OOP, where Griffindor and Slytherin were friends and Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff were friends. The reason Slytherin left was the issue of bloodlines, Salazar demanding to teach only pureblood. If the other founders were also purebloods like Salazar, why then would they object to Salazar's demands? However it would make more sense if their objection were based on personal blood related issues. Griffindor, Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff may have taken Slytherin's demands as a personal insult on their own wizarding capabilities. Salazar left but the remaining three founders (all having a tainted bloodline to some extent in Slytherin's view) unified the school keeping the houses arranged in their original agreed upon way. From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Thu Jul 29 00:27:51 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:27:51 -0000 Subject: OotP Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108022 wrote: > The prophecy states that "neither can live while the other survives." >Since Jk has said it was very intentionally worded, I feel there's a >high probability that "survives" means more than "is alive"... For >instance, if Harry sacrifices himself, and lives on in the memory of >others, Voldemort will get trounced. > > Becky > Hi Becky, I am Valky. I would say that you make a very good point in supposing that the figurative meaning of 'survives' _so as, to be enduring_, could be valuable consideration for deciphering the prophecy. Althougg such a meaning would be profound, it might also be difficult to pen, _I am finding it a bit hairy myself :D_ But JKR did tackle the very semantic and thin line of the Thestrals for us so it's not impossible that the books might conclude the prophecy without it's literal sense. Personally and less objectively, I recently conjured myself up a theory that hinged on the word 'survives' being translated non- literally, so therefore, I guess I am with you on that. It might be of interest to you if you wanted to cultivate your thread into a full blown theory. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/104274 Anyway good first post, Becky Best to All valky From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Thu Jul 29 00:37:15 2004 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 01:37:15 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:Neville and potions- an unpopular opinion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <410846BB.1060104@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 108023 xtremesk8ergurl2 at aol.com wrote: > From: Irene >>Now, I maintain another unpopular opinion - that Snape's teaching method >>is not criminal and not even outside of the range of valid methods, and >>works perfectly well for average and above students. It might even be >>one of the more efficient methods for gifted students. > xtremesk8ergurl2: > Believe it or not, I'm both severly dyslexic, ADHD, and CAPD (auditory > processing disorder), and have an IQ over 145. > I went to a school for gifted kids with Language Based Learning Differences (mostly Dyslexia etc.), > and I had a teacher for Literature who was just like Snape. While she was one of the meanest people > I've ever met, and even often embarassed me in front of the class, she was the only teacher I had who could > ever teach me how to write a paper. Ironically, she had the whole greasy haired look that Snape had too. > While I despised the way she treated me and some of my classmates, I often took certain things she said with > a grain of salt, and I feel she really wisened all of us up instead of sugarcoating things for us and making > excuses for us like other teachers do for special needs students. > > And another thing special needs students need to learn and that often only a Snape-type teacher can teach, > is that you have to work twice as hard in life. The Snape teachers I've had in my life are probably the reason > why I'm as self-motivated today as I am. While encouragement can do this for some people, a lot of people just > need a kick in the butt. I actually think having a Snape teacher is a good experience for a Special needs child. Wow, what can I say other than enormous respect to your experiences and achievements? I'm glad that someone else has a contrary opinion to the majority vote that Snape should be fired, arrested and then fired again, preferably with a firing squad. > Also, in reference to your comment about parallels, I think Hermione > is parallel to an academically > and intellectually gifted child. Yes, and Ron represents "lads culture", I'm afraid. :-) And if he tries to drag Hermione down one more time, I want someone to kick him. Irene From hubbarrk at rose-hulman.edu Wed Jul 28 20:50:06 2004 From: hubbarrk at rose-hulman.edu (Bex) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:50:06 -0000 Subject: HBP Clues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108024 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "iamvine" wrote: > > Eleanor: > > The discovery is made in 'Chamber' the book, not the actual > Chamber. So Parseltongue is > > entirely possible. > I think that "Half Blood Prince" refers to Colin Creevey, or perhaps someone in Voldemort's bloodline (perhaps Salazar Slytherin?). Harry discovered that Colin's father is a milkman, which sounds like a muggle job for sure, so the Creevey boys are probably half-bloods (but we don't know anything for sure.) And of course, Harry discovered a great number of things about Tom Riddle. JK hasn't said anything about the HBP not being a member of the Riddle (or Potter) clan. ~Yb From hubbarrk at rose-hulman.edu Wed Jul 28 21:22:42 2004 From: hubbarrk at rose-hulman.edu (Bex) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:22:42 -0000 Subject: LV, James and Lily [was Re: Lily's Family] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108025 > Anastasia: > What if LV needed her [Lily] > for something once he finished with Harry? Couldn't she > be an Unspeakable LV wanted to get the prophecy or some other > information from afterwards? LV wasn't concerned with hearing the prophecy again until _after_ that night. He thought he'd heard the whole thing; that's why he went after Harry in the first place. The prophecy told him "I'd better take care of this kid!" Of course, when the curse backfired (or whatever actually happened), some deep thinking and reflection (in other creatures' bodies) made him realize that there must have been more to the prophecy than he originally thought, thus, he started trying to get at this prophecy. I think LV only killed Lily because she wouldn't let him kill Harry. I don't think *her* particular bloodline was that important to him. Anastasia: > James seems to be a better candidate for a Gryffindor. Already the > fact that we don't know anything about his background is > suspicious, isn't it? Yes, from the pensieve incident in OotP, we get the idea that he was more of the "brave, slightly-less-than-straight-laced" persona present in so many Gryffindors than Lily. But rmemeber, we know nearly as little about Lily, including what she was like in school. There is no doubt in my mind that Harry is the descendant of Godric Gryffindor, so the lineage has to come from somewhere. Though I admit James seems the likelier bloodline carrier, I ask this: Did Tom Riddle *seem* like the kind of boy who would be Salazar Slytherin's descendant, bent on wreaking havoc in the wizarding world by the age of 16? We only know what we think we know, and JK has a habit of showing us that what we think we know is usually wrong. ~Yb From cyclone_61032 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 28 21:54:24 2004 From: cyclone_61032 at yahoo.com (David & Laura) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:54:24 -0000 Subject: HBP Clues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108026 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brenda" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scott_craft_2000" > wrote: > > When JKR cut out the HBP storyline, could it be that finds a wall > > with the information on it, or could it be something the Tom Riddle > > tells him about his own past or about Harry's past. Any comments? > > Luckdragon64 writes: > I think the clue is when Dumbledore tells Harry that only a true > Gryffindor could pull the sword out of the hat. My theory is that > JKR had planned on Dumbledore explaining to Harry that he is the > true heir of Gryffindor and his learning about his heritage will > include learning that Godric was a half blood descendant of both > King Arthur and Merlin ("All pure bloods are related at some point") > What do you think?? David: I agree, as I've posted previously. If book 6 is to include a subject omitted from #2, my vote is Gryffindor. We've heard all about Slytherin, but very little about GG. I also view Dumbledore's comment that onlt a true Gryffindor could have pulled out the sword as very key! On a first read, you could have taken that to mean a member of the Gryffindor house. Thinking about it further, you see the beauty of the statement and situation. Harry is a descendent of GG. JK can wrap the books up as a centuries old battle between GG and SS, finally finished by their descendents, Harry and LV. We know SS wanted only pure bloods in school. We know GG wanted all with magical ability. We don't know how their first fight ended, but we know SS created the Chamber and left. Thus, since there is no royalty apparently in modern WW, my vote's on GG as the HBP. From eabarboza at yahoo.com Wed Jul 28 23:52:54 2004 From: eabarboza at yahoo.com (eabarboza) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:52:54 -0000 Subject: Regulus Black's son the HBP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108027 I have a pretty wild theory, so feel free to tear it up. We all know that Siris' death had to happen for a reason. The only thing I could think of is his inheritance. His death would bring out any living relative that he has. His brother Regulus Black was a Death Eater, but was killed because he tried to get out. See quote below: "Sirius jabbed a finger at the very bottom of the tree, at the name REGULUS BLACK. A date of death (some fifteen years previously) followed the date of birth ""Was he killed by an Auror?" Harry asked tentatively. "Oh, no," Sirius said. "No, he was murdered by Voldemort. Or on Voldemort's orders more likely, I doubt Regulus was ever important enough to be killed by Voldemort in person. From what I found out after he died , he got in so far, then panicked about what he was being asked to do and tried to back out Well, you don't just hand in your resignation to Voldemort . It's a lifetime of service or death ." Pages 111-112 of the American Version of Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix printed by Scholastic Press I have also found out that Regulus Black actually means "the 'little king' a star in the Leo constellation (From the Lexicon website). What if Regulus was trying to get out because he had fallen in love with a Muggle. What if he had a son? His son would be a Half Blood and a "prince", not in the literal sense. He would be the Half Blood Prince that would try to claim Sirius' inheritance! If this is correct, then this new character would be rather upset with Voldemort for killing his father. Therefore, he would be more than willing to join in the fight against him. On the other hand, this "prince" might detest his Muggle blood just like Voldemort and would decide to join the DE. What do you guys think of my wild theory? -Erika From gelite67 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 29 00:02:57 2004 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:02:57 -0000 Subject: HBP Clues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108028 --- > Luckdragon64 writes: > My theory is that JKR had planned on Dumbledore explaining to Harry that he is the true heir of Gryffindor and that Godric was a half blood descendant of both King Arthur and Merlin. Angie wonders: The question for me would be why, then, did the Sorting Hat consider placing Harry in SLytherin and why did it tell Harry he would have done well in Slytherin (if he was the true heir of Gryffindor)? From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 29 00:54:28 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:54:28 -0000 Subject: Neville and potions- an unpopular opinion In-Reply-To: <410846BB.1060104@btopenworld.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108029 Irene: snip. I'm glad that someone else has a contrary opinion to the > majority vote that Snape should be fired, arrested and then fired again, > preferably with a firing squad. Alla: I don't know about others, but till the books end, I most certainly don't want Snape to be fired. But rest assured, I want him to suffer A LOT. Yes, I am that blood firsty about that character. (my way of caring) :o) If his sufferings will include same undeserved abuse, humiliation, mental assault he put Harry through, I will be one happy camper. I know, it ain't gonna happen, unfortunately. From aboutthe1910s at yahoo.com Thu Jul 29 01:02:12 2004 From: aboutthe1910s at yahoo.com (aboutthe1910s) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 01:02:12 -0000 Subject: HBP Clues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108030 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Bex" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "iamvine" > wrote: > > > > Eleanor: > > > The discovery is made in 'Chamber' the book, not the actual > > Chamber. So Parseltongue is > > > entirely possible. > > > > I think that "Half Blood Prince" refers to Colin Creevey, or perhaps > someone in Voldemort's bloodline (perhaps Salazar Slytherin?). Harry > discovered that Colin's father is a milkman, which sounds like a > muggle job for sure, so the Creevey boys are probably half-bloods > (but we don't know anything for sure.) And of course, Harry > discovered a great number of things about Tom Riddle. JK hasn't said > anything about the HBP not being a member of the Riddle (or Potter) > clan. > > ~Yb It's my understanding that the Creevey's are muggleborn, not half blood, as Colin has a normal muggle camera and has never heard of pictures that move before he gets to Hogwarts. Both the Creevey's do seem a little to over-excited about everything in the wizarding world to have grown up knowing anything about it. aboutthe1910s From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 29 01:05:27 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 01:05:27 -0000 Subject: "Alas", how about Umbridge as new MoM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108032 snip. Shell: > > I agree that it will never be Malfoy and heaven help us if it ever > became Umbridge. That woman is just Evil! You bring up a good point > with Dumbledore, but I just can't see him leaving Hogwarts in order > to become the new MoM. I think he might feel that he is better > suited to staying at Hogwarts in order to protect Harry. Alla: I don't know. Dumbledore already refused to be a Minister once. Of course, Rowling may surprise us, but so far I just don't see it. I guess it all depends on what you predict the political atmosphere in book 6 will be. If you think it improves, you can assume that Dumbledore is going to become a Minister. I think that the atmospere is going to get much worse before it gets better. I think it will be something similar to first WW war against Voldie. i think people will not be sure whom to trust, who is a DE, etc. Therefore I just don't see good guy as a minister in HBP. I will be very happy to be proven wrong. Shell: > But, as to who to place as the MoM, that's a good question. > Personally, I would love to see Lupin there. Yes, yes, he is a > werewolf, but can you imagine the mayhem it would cause? Alla: Yes, it would be fun, but I think that poor remus stillc annot get any oficial job, right? Umbridge act is still active? (Correct me if I am wrong) Shell: > > I would love to see Arthur Weaseley as the new Minister, but again, > Jo as said he won't be, and I personally don't think he would be a > good choice. He's a lovely person, but is too kind hearted and I > feel that the MoM needs to be a strong character. Alla: I think if needed Arthur can be quite a strong character and I am hoping that his time will come in book 7, if Rowling lets him live of course From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Jul 29 01:12:19 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 01:12:19 -0000 Subject: Timelines In-Reply-To: <4108B869.1101.2BB7945@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108033 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" wrote: > Just a quick note to address something that may have already been mentioned, but if so, I haven't seen it. I have seen a number of posts using real world times for sunrise/sunset, etc to analyse timelines for events on the list recently. > > All I have seen seem to be using 'Muggle time'. There's a potential problem with that. > > Does the Wizarding World use Daylight Savings? If it doesn't, then Harry would have wondered why the Hogwarts Express actually left at noon Muggle time. Probably the wizards adopted Muggle time zones when they started using the railway system, just as Muggles themselves did. Pippin From drednort at alphalink.com.au Thu Jul 29 01:18:31 2004 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 11:18:31 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Timelines In-Reply-To: References: <4108B869.1101.2BB7945@localhost> Message-ID: <4108DD07.17615.34A8856@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 108034 On 29 Jul 2004 at 1:12, pippin_999 wrote: > If it doesn't, then Harry would have wondered why the Hogwarts > Express actually left at noon Muggle time. Probably the wizards > adopted Muggle time zones when they started using the railway > system, just as Muggles themselves did. Very possibly - and we do have some indication of this in the first book where we are given enough information to see Muggle time and Wizard time actually matching. But I hesitate to base an assumption on one piece of data if I can avoid it. Has anyone seen any other indications? Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From meltowne at yahoo.com Thu Jul 29 01:24:50 2004 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 01:24:50 -0000 Subject: LV, James and Lily [was Re: Lily's Family] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108035 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Anastasia" wrote: Anastasia: I think Lily is the link to Gryffindor, and has a stong magical heritage that gives her some special powers, and Harry as well. I really like the idea that Voldemort told Lily to 'step aside', not because he didn't think she mattered, but because he feared the consequences of killing her. Perhaps he knew something about her power to indicate killing her might bring some curse down on him. He chose to kill her anyway, taking his chances, and obviously not realizing Harry has the same power(s). You know, I have also thought about this: James AND Lily have escaped LV 3 times. Nevertheless, at Godric's Hollow LV seems not to care at all about killing Lily. Why????? Well, it's natural that he did kill James. James was duelling LV and the very best chance to get him out of the way was using Adava Kedavra on him. That's clear, especially as James was a serious threat. However, I doubt that LV was *afraid* of killing Lily. I think it is more the fact that he didn't consider her as *important*. She was muggleborn and seemed to him like... an annoying fly. If she really was the heir of Gryffindor, then LV would have to kill her so that she couldn't give birth to another child. However, if LV didn't want to kill her personally, than the fact that she has faced him 3(!) times must be due to her job. What if LV needed her for something once he finished with Harry? Couldn't she be an Unspeakable LV wanted to get the prophecy or some other information from afterwards? James seems to be a better candidate for a Gryffindor. Already the fact that we don't know anything about his backround is suspicious, isn't it? Meltowne: I think the link to Gryffindor comes through Lily, but LV is not aware of it. He thinks of her as inconsequential because she is muggleborn. We see characters on both sides (wizard & uggle) who wish the two sides would keep to themselves, and who think of both groups as "us" and "them" when in reality both groups have been intermixed for ages. If wizarding was based on genetics, that would explain the occasional squib child - and mixing of the gene pools would explain the muggle-born wizards. Voldemort thinks full-bloods are so much more important (and powerful) than half-bloods, even though he is one himself. Thus he may not even consider that Lily could be related to Godric Gryffindor, because maybe sh descended from a squib several generations back - one who left the folds of the Wizarding World and lived as a muggle, married a myggle, and produced muggle children. From ekrbdg at msn.com Thu Jul 29 01:35:35 2004 From: ekrbdg at msn.com (Kimberly) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:35:35 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sorting Hat was Re: HBP Clues References: Message-ID: <002101c4750c$7a21a860$54fd9e3f@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 108036 Angie wonders: The question for me would be why, then, did the Sorting Hat consider placing Harry in SLytherin and why did it tell Harry he would have done well in Slytherin (if he was the true heir of Gryffindor)? *Kimberly's comment* Because Harry also possesses some of the Slytherin qualities. Voldemort passed them on to Harry inadvertently when he tried to kill Harry. Some of Voldemort's qualities, powers, were passed on to Harry. Being a member of one house doesn't preclude you from having qualities of the other houses as well. Because Voldemort passed Slytherin qualities on to Harry, he has Slytherin as well as Gryffindor traits. Kimberly --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.717 / Virus Database: 473 - Release Date: 7/8/2004 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Thu Jul 29 02:10:41 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 02:10:41 -0000 Subject: Snape's part in death of Sirius In-Reply-To: <4108C921.17823.2FCCABD@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108037 Asian_lovr2 wrote: Saturday 15 June 1996 Universal Time -SUN- Begin civil twilight 02:04 (am) Sunrise 03:17 (am) Sun transit 12:19 Sunset 21:21 (9:21pm) End civil twilight 22:34 (10:34pm) Shaun Hately added: Very close - as expected - the only difference is my calculations yield Civil Twilight as starting three minutes earlier in the morning and ending three minutes later at night Neri now: Thanks Steve and Shaun. At times like this I realize why this list is the most serious HP forum there is ;-D Your figures are pretty close to the times for sunrise and sunset I've got from the weather website: http://www.onlineweather.com/v4/uk/sun/Edinburgh.html#June What looks like a big difference mainly in the sunrise time is, I believe, due to summer daylight saving time. The weather website notes that all times take account of clock change time in Spring and Autumn. I assume your figures do not take account of it, since they come from astronomy software. Am I correct? In order to prevent terrible confusion, we'd better work all of us in the same system. I suggest it will be the one who account for summer saving time, since we can then compare times to hours that the characters might name. That is, when Hermione says in chapter 32 "its five o'clock in the afternoon . . . the Ministry of Magic must be full of workers" I assume she uses standard summer saving time (gee, I really hope she does or we are in for a MIGHTY confusion). So I'm going to add one hour to your numbers and get: Sunset 10:21 pm End civil twilight 11:34 pm Begin civil twilight 03:04 am Sunrise 04:17 am So Harry & Co take off from the forest at 10:21 "into the blood-red sunset" (Ch. 34) First light of dawn at 3:04 is still much earlier than I thought before. We know that Harry is back to DD's office at first light. This actually fits with a problem I had in my first timeline: the battles with the DEs and LV seem to take more time than how they are described in the book. Now this is nicely corrected. Based on the new first light time, I suggest an updated timeline: --------------------------------------------- 5:00 pm ? (canon) Harry tells Ron and Hermione about his vision. Hermione says: "its five o'clock in the afternoon . . . the Ministry of Magic must be full of workers". 5:30 pm - Planning the break into Umbridge's office 5:45 pm ? Harry runs to his room to bring his invisibility cloak. 6:00 pm ? The break into Umbridge's office. 6:30 pm ? Harry talks with Kreacher in Umbridge's fire. 7:00 pm - Umbridge catches Harry. 7:30 pm - Harry tells Snape "he got Padfoot at the place were it's hidden". 8:00 pm - Umbridge, Harry and Hermione go to the forest. Harry hears the sounds of dinner in the great hall (canon). At the same time, Snape is contacting HQ for the first time. 8:15 pm - before Snape is back from talking with HQ, Ron & Co break away and run after UHH. 9:30 pm - UHH encounter the centaurs. 9:45 pm - Ron and Co find Harry and Hermione in the forest. 10:21 pm - (canon) Harry & Co take off "into the sunset". 11:30 pm ? Harry and Co land near the MoM entrance (travel time 1:10 hrs) 11:45 pm - Harry & Co arrive at the DoM. 12:30 am ? Harry & Co had finally finished touring the DoM. Harry takes the Prophecy. 1:00 am ? End of the chat with Lucius and Bella. The chase begin. 1:45 am - The Order members break into the death room and battle with the DEs. 2:00 am ? DD appears in the death room. Sirius dies. 2:30 am - The Voldy vs DD match. 3:00 am ? (canon) DD sends Harry to his office by Portkey. Harry sees the first light of dawn from the office window. (All times take account of summer daylight saving time!) --------------------------------------------------- If we allow for a whole hour for the Order members to get to the DoM since Snape contacted them, then he did it in 12:45, still almost 5 hrs after he first contacted HQ. This is a very rough estimation of course. It could be 3.5 hrs to 6 hrs, depending how much time you feel each event in the story took. I think that any timeline, however, must fit with: ---------------------------------- 5:00 pm ? (canon) Harry tells Ron and Hermione about his vision. Hermione says: "its five o'clock in the afternoon . . . the Ministry of Magic must be full of workers". time unknown - Umbridge, Harry and Hermione go out for the forest. Harry hears the sounds of dinner in the great hall (canon) and the sun is "falling towards the tops of the trees" (canon). 10:21 pm - (canon) Harry & Co take off "into the sunset". 3:00 am ? (canon) DD sends Harry to his office by Portkey. Harry sees the first light of dawn from the office window. ---------------------------------- Neri (who did ask for "satisfactory nitpicking" several posts ago, and didn't know what he was asking for) From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jul 29 02:47:46 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 02:47:46 -0000 Subject: Sorting Hat was Re: HBP Clues In-Reply-To: <002101c4750c$7a21a860$54fd9e3f@hppav> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108038 > Angie wonders:> > The question for me would be why, then, did the Sorting Hat consider placing Harry in SLytherin and why did it tell Harry he would have done well in Slytherin (if he was the true heir of Gryffindor)? > > > *Kimberly's comment* > Because Harry also possesses some of the Slytherin qualities. Voldemort passed them on to Harry inadvertently when he tried to kill Harry. Potioncat: Harry also came into some Slytherin qualities naturally. He shares with his father a certain disregard for rules and a desire to achieve. From luckdragon64 at yahoo.ca Thu Jul 29 01:35:51 2004 From: luckdragon64 at yahoo.ca (Bee Chase) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:35:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HBP Clues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040729013551.64791.qmail@web21522.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 108039 gelite67 wrote: --- > Luckdragon64 writes: > My theory is that JKR had planned on Dumbledore explaining to Harry that he is the true heir of Gryffindor and that Godric was a half blood descendant of both King Arthur and Merlin. Angie wonders: The question for me would be why, then, did the Sorting Hat consider placing Harry in SLytherin and why did it tell Harry he would have done well in Slytherin (if he was the true heir of Gryffindor)? Brenda responds: Simply because of the powers transferred from LV to Harry when he tried to curse him. "In essence divided". Although Harry's genes are from Gryffindor he has abilities and powers we are yet unaware of from Voldemort; as we learned in book 5 when he started seeing through Voldemorts eyes. From jeopardy18 at comcast.net Thu Jul 29 02:17:30 2004 From: jeopardy18 at comcast.net (seanmulligan2000) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 02:17:30 -0000 Subject: Dudley & Late Magic In-Reply-To: <002701c474a0$09316d00$6562d1d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108040 Cathy wrote: > JKR said "; however, there is a character who does manage in desperate circumstances to do magic quite late in life, ." > > From JKR's statement, I'm thinking this is a one shot deal... > Those who come to mind as possibilities are: > > Mr. Filch, another Squib, has seen more than his share of spells > and incantations, I'm sure. I think the late bloomer will be Filch. He will make a deal with Voldemort so that he can get magical powers and then he will be Voldemorts spy in Hogwarts. "seanmulligan2000" From LadyNeptune6627 at aol.com Thu Jul 29 02:46:22 2004 From: LadyNeptune6627 at aol.com (LadyNeptune6627 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:46:22 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily and magic Outside School Message-ID: <199.2c7e6ef6.2e39befe@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 108041 [snip] Amey: > > > "This solves the mystery how Lily could easily do magic at home > > > in vacation, if her family was magic." [snip] DuffyPoo now: > > I don't think so. I think, if she truly had done magic at home > > in vacation, and it wasn't just Petunia's ranting, then the rule > > must have been changed at some point between her time at Hogwarts > > and Harry's. queenbeetle (me!): Hi everyone! ^_^ This is my first post. Sorry if my point has already been brought up; I haven't been very strictly following this entire post. If Lily was indeed doing magic at home, I agree that the law must have been changed before Harry and co.'s time. However, it's possible that Petunia, in her jealousy, could have exaggerated what Lily had done at home. In partial, my copy of SS (American version, paperback, p. 53): "[Lily] came home every vacation with her pockets full of frog spawn, turning teacups into rats. I was the only one who saw her for what she was--a freak! But for my mother and father, oh no, it was Lily this and Lily that, they were proud of having a witch in the family!" I think Petunia was obviously jealous of her sister's abilities; calling Lily a "freak" and thinking of herself (Petunia) as the normal one is a defense technique to help alleviate her feelings of inadequacy. Seeing Harry recieve the Hogwarts letter and Dudley not recieving one (even though Petunia and Vernon outwardly despise the WW) probably reminded her of her own experience with Lily. Thusly, I see it as possible for Petunia to exagerate what Lily actually did at home. If Lily did actual magic, even very small/not complicated magic, Petunia would see it as a big attempt on Lily's part to "show up" (so to speak) her sister. Also, how empathetic can Lily be, to do magic infront of her (possibly) squib sister? Then again, it's possible the two had a specific confrontation about it, Lily perhaps coming off in the worse because of Petunia's still obviously harsh feelings. However, we've got no cannon for that. [In contrast, Lily turning teacups into rats is clearly Transfiguration, but I think Petunia could have exaggerated that also--as in, Petunia was so fed up with Lily that she assumed Lily is doing something that showy] However, my alternate exaggeration theory relies on the fact that Lily and Petunia's parents are Muggles (or possibly squibs with hardly any wizarding knowledge). Lily could have easily brought home wizarding candy, such as chocolate frogs, fizing whizbees, or any number of interesting candies described in Hogsmeade; or possibly magically enhanced items. With no exposure to the WW, her parents and Petunia especially could see this as magic on Lily's part. I would assume, however, that Lily would have adequately explained the items as not her own doing. Then again, jealous Petunia could have tuned this out, and still have seen it as showing off. In addition, and I'm sure this has been brought up previously, but Hermione is a muggleborn witch, and exceptionally bright at that. Aren't her parents proud of her? I'm sure they are "proud to have a witch in the family," even though they are muggles. Therefore, I don't think that line in particular is a reference to Lily and Petunia coming from a line of squibs, or that their parents are wizards and only Petunia was a squib. Although, Petunia being a squib and Lily a witch would add to more emotional angst on the part of the former. Well, there you have it. ^_^ cheers, then. queenbeetle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 29 04:14:32 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 04:14:32 -0000 Subject: Apparate into Hogwarts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108042 Marita Bush wrote: > I've read all the posts about apparating into and out of Hogwarts, > and I know that everytime it's mentioned in one of the books, > someone says "You can't do that!" > > But.... > If that doesn't mean he apparated out of there, what does it mean? Carol responds: That Fawkes, like Dobby, uses a different form of magic from wizard-style apparation? The restriction on apparating apparently applies only to wizards and witches transporting *themselves,* not to their being transported by some other agency. Harry is returned to Dumbledore's office by portkey after the MoM battle, and Fawkes in the quote I snipped is acting as a "portkey" of sorts, transporting Dumbledore, because even Dumbledore is bound by the anti-apparation restriction. I think we should take Hermione and Snape at their word here: Witches and wizards can't apparate or disapparate inside Hogwarts or its grounds. But that doesn't mean there aren't other methods of entering or leaving it magically, some of which we may not yet have seen. Carol From hedwigstalons at yahoo.com Thu Jul 29 04:15:48 2004 From: hedwigstalons at yahoo.com (hedwigstalons) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 04:15:48 -0000 Subject: Regulus Black's son the HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108043 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eabarboza" wrote: > > What if Regulus was trying to get out because he had fallen in love > with a Muggle. What if he had a son? His son would be a Half Blood > and a "prince", not in the literal sense. He would be the Half > Blood Prince that would try to claim Sirius' inheritance! > > What do you guys think of my wild theory? > > -Erika Erika - I think this is a great theory! That would make Regulus' child potentially Harry's age or a bit older. (Unless Regulus never died, and then the child could be younger.) If the child is 15 or older, where has he been going to school? Will he transfer to Hogwarts? HedwigsTalons From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 29 04:27:52 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 04:27:52 -0000 Subject: Most burning Snape question? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108044 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jenniferstmatt" wrote: > > > Laura writes: > > > Has anyone got a list of Snape questions they really want answered? > > Cynthia: > > 4. Does Snape love anyone? > > Jenn writes: > > Cynthia, you make a great point, and those are great questions. IMO, > Snape is the most challenging and compelling character JKR has in > this series - his character development is far more complex than in > any other character in the series. If I could ask JKR a question, I > would ask if she intended to make Snape so complex and intriguing. > He seems to have more potential for growth and interest as the series > progresses. And if JKR would answer your question "Does Snape love > anyone", it would give a lot of insight into his character. > > Jenn Carol: Except that, as I pointed out before, it's a yes/no question. If she says "no," that's that. It doesn't tell us much (except that she doesn't consider him able to give or receive love). If she says yes, she'll probably add, "but I'm not telling you who." I think a "why" or "how" question, e.g., "How did Voldemort know (or why did he believe) that Snape had left him forever?" would have a better chance of receiving an informative response--unless JKR pulls a sneaky and says "What makes you think he was referring to Snape?" which, IMO, would be an unkindness to the fans. And after misleading us with Mark Evans, I hope she'll make an effort to be genuinely informative this time around. (Actually, I'd settle for "You'll find out," which would at least establish that LV really was referring to Snape.) Carol From angellslin at yahoo.com.hk Thu Jul 29 04:34:52 2004 From: angellslin at yahoo.com.hk (angellslin) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 04:34:52 -0000 Subject: Regulus Black's son the HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108045 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hedwigstalons" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eabarboza" > wrote: > > > > > What if Regulus was trying to get out because he had fallen in love > > with a Muggle. What if he had a son? His son would be a Half Blood > > and a "prince", not in the literal sense. He would be the Half > > Blood Prince that would try to claim Sirius' inheritance! > > > > > What do you guys think of my wild theory? > > > > -Erika > > Erika - > I think this is a great theory! That would make Regulus' child > potentially Harry's age or a bit older. (Unless Regulus never died, > and then the child could be younger.) If the child is 15 or older, > where has he been going to school? Will he transfer to Hogwarts? > > HedwigsTalons How about it turns to be Dean Thomas? In her edits, Jo told us that Dean's father is a wizard (without the knowledge of Dean's mother) and was killed by death eaters. Interesting enough is that this pcs of information was cut from the Chamber of Secrets. - Angel From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 29 04:35:19 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 04:35:19 -0000 Subject: Theory on James and Lilly Potters occupations In-Reply-To: <047d01c471fc$aa7e7cd0$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108046 > Tanya wrote: > However, I have a query. Hagrid says in PS/SS that Hogwarts was one > of the only safe places back then. If Lily and James were teaching, > in October with the fidelus charm being set when they lived at Godrics Hollow. Wouldn't it have made more sense for them to be living within Hogwarts if teaching at that time? > > > > > Charme: > > Maybe so, however if James or Lily was anything like Lupin, he wouldn't want to draw Hogwarts students into a precarious position, regardless of how safe it was supposed to be. Notice though, that I haven't seen anything in canon where anyone's spouse lives with them at Hogwarts....interesting point you have though. Carol responds: If we take as canon that Harry heard James' voice in the Boggart!Dementor scene with Lupin, then both Lily and James were at home in Godric's Hollow with baby Harry on Halloween--which they would not have been if one or both were teaching at Hogwarts. Whatever they were doing, I don't think it involved teaching--or being an auror. Carol From yahoogroups at catbirdco.us Thu Jul 29 04:10:32 2004 From: yahoogroups at catbirdco.us (Michal) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:10:32 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Regulus Black's son the HBP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20040728204307.033e7eb0@mail.catbirdco.us> No: HPFGUIDX 108047 Erika wrote: >We all know that Siris' death had to happen for a reason. The only >thing I could think of is his inheritance. His death would bring >out any living relative that he has. I've been wondering, too, about who'll inherit the Black estate (presumably Mrs. Black's estate plus Sirius's inheritance from his uncle). Lacking children or a will (would he have been that practical?), would Sirius's heir be his godson Harry? Or would it be his closest relative on the unedited Black Family Tree? Bellatrix? A DE owning the headquarters of the Order would be deliciously ironic! Similarly, I've been wondering if Harry owns a house someplace but doesn't know it yet. Who *is* Harry's wizard guardian at the time of his parents' deaths? Even though the house was destroyed, was it insured and rebuilt? The lot sold (the source of Harry's vault of gold?). But that's slightly OT for this post. >What if Regulus .... had a son? His son would be a Half Blood >and a "prince", not in the literal sense. He would be the Half >Blood Prince that would try to claim Sirius' inheritance! > >If this is correct, then this new character would be rather upset >with Voldemort for killing his father. Therefore, he would be more >than willing to join in the fight against him. On the other hand, >this "prince" might detest his Muggle blood just like Voldemort and >would decide to join the DE. Regulus II aka R2 (whether a son or daughter) has to be Harry's age or older give the date of Regulus' murder. R2 could still be at Hogwarts or could be a student at Durmstrang or Beauxbatons (lousy spelling). Wouldn't it be funny if it was Krum? But no, we met his parent's unless that was his step-father. If Regulus did have a half-blood child he would probably not have told his parents (if he even knew about it himself). If he was aware of his parenthood, he could have impressed upon his partner that his parents would not welcome her or their child. On his death, his partner would have been unlikely to contact the Blacks. And Regulus might have been reluctant to tell Sirius because of Sirius' youth or Sirius' not having yet expressed disgust with the Black Pure Blood attitude. One could argue that R2 could be pro, con, or neutral regarding either Harry or Voldemort. R2 could also be determined, reluctant, or completely unaware of his/her connection. I suppose it all depends on what JKR needs the character to be so the story unfolds as she intends. Michal From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Thu Jul 29 04:45:31 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 29 Jul 2004 04:45:31 -0000 Subject: Fudge and Harry as Gryffindor's heir Message-ID: <20040729044531.30903.qmail@webmail30.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 108048 - Griffin782002 now: - I wonder if this is has something to do with the D.E.s. I haven't rejected the idea that Fudge is the one that have deserted me; he could flee after he realizes that L.V. was really back. Or perhaps he feels so disgraced because he failed to act immediately that he decides to leave. Amey: But if Fudge is really a DE, what about the Dark Mark on his arm? Wouldn?t he feel it coming back as Snape and Karkoff did? Wouldn?t he feel it burning when Voldemort summoned all his supporters in Graveyard? Or is he a spy and hence does not carry the Dark Mark. Because I don?t think he can go in so much denial after feeling the Dark Mark burn. As for his being disgraced and so resigning, I think it is not in his character. I think he will be there till the time everybody wakes up to the fact that they need a wartime minister, not a person who tried to sweep the dirt under the carpet. - *Kimberly's comment* - Because Harry also possesses some of the Slytherin qualities. Voldemort passed - them on to Harry inadvertently when he tried to kill Harry. Some of Voldemort's - qualities, powers, were passed on to Harry. Being a member of one house - doesn't preclude you from having qualities of the other houses as well. Because - Voldemort passed Slytherin qualities on to Harry, he has Slytherin as well as - Gryffindor traits. Amey: said Dumbledore calmly. "Listen to me, Harry. You happen to have many qualities Salazar Slytherin prized in his hand-picked students. His own very rare gift, Parseltongue -resourcefulness - determination -- a certain disregard for rules," he added, his mustache quivering again. (CoS, when he underlines the importance of the personal choices). So, does this mean that the powers Voldemort transferred to Harry overshadowed the traits he inherited from Gryffindor? Must be pretty thin blood connection then. Also, 'I thought,' said Phineas Nigellus, stroking his pointed beard, 'that to belong in Gryffindor house you were supposed to be brave! It looks to me as though you would have been better off in my own house. We Slytherins are brave, yes, but not stupid. For instance, given the choice, we will always choose to save our own necks.' (OOtP) What I feel from these two is, Harry might be a true Gryffindor, portraying the characteristics Gryffindor valued, bravery and all. But to make him the actual descendent (or ancestor, as JKR might say) of Gryffindor would take out the whole point of the story. The story is about powers you have and how you use them, not the powers you inherit and so you have to use them that way. Bloodline is not important, but yes, spiritually Harry is a true Gryffindor (at least till GoF and somewhere at the end of OOtP). If anybody wants to see what a true heir of Gryffindor looks like, go upto the stone gargoyle, say ?Fizzing Whizzbee? and going up the staircase, knock using the Gryffin knocker. You will find the person stroking a phoenix sporting the colours of Gryffindor house (At least in my opinion). ;D Amey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From amlesis at yahoo.com Thu Jul 29 03:44:42 2004 From: amlesis at yahoo.com (Franzi schuerch) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:44:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily and magic Outside School In-Reply-To: <199.2c7e6ef6.2e39befe@aol.com> Message-ID: <20040729034442.69928.qmail@web54101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 108049 Amey: > > > "This solves the mystery how Lily could easily do magic at home > > > in vacation, if her family was magic." [snip] DuffyPoo now: > > I don't think so. I think, if she truly had done magic at home > > in vacation, and it wasn't just Petunia's ranting, then the rule > > must have been changed at some point between her time at Hogwarts > > and Harry's. Amlesis now: There may be a simpler explanation. After turning 16 and passing OWL wizards may no longer be underage. Just a thought. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From amphibi_pro at yahoo.com Thu Jul 29 04:06:35 2004 From: amphibi_pro at yahoo.com (amphibi_pro) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 04:06:35 -0000 Subject: The Titlings Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108050 Hi, I'm Chris from Indonesia, I've joined this group for more than 6 months but this is actually my first post..lol. Anyway, there somethings bothering me, the titles of the books. Sorcerer's Stone : a stone that lead Harry to meet Voldemort for the first time. Chamber of Secrets : a hidden chamber where Slytherin and some of his selected pupils practice the dark arts, or something like that. Prisoner of Azkaban : a man that turns out to be Harry's godfather. Goblet of Fire : a goblet that turns out to be a portkey and brought Harry to meet Voldemort, again. Order of the Phoenix : a group of people lead by Dumbledore to against the dark lord. Now, we know that the next title's going to be 'Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince' which seems to be like a pattern: SS,GF : an item that brought Harry face to face with Voldemort CS,OP : a place or group of people in which the people, if not pros, against the pureblood idealism PA : a man that's related to Harry If this pattern is true and I don't make mistake on drawing the conclusion, then this halfblood prince would surely has some relation with Harry also. We do know that every title brings up new items, place, group and character, which mean this halfblood prince is someone who's not our well-known character. Short to say, he might be a whole new character. But wait, Sirius was introduced in the first book at the very first chapter and yet brought under the spotlight after the third book. If this is also a pattern, would that mean who ever this halfblood prince is, he was already mentioned in the third book and later brings to the attention in sixth? Would he be the replacement of Sirius after his death? waiting for reply, chrisp From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Thu Jul 29 05:25:11 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 05:25:11 -0000 Subject: Amos for MoM? (was Re: "Alas", how about Umbridge as new MoM) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108051 Antosha: So I was thinking about the various candidates suggested and they all fail on a couple of levels--in the reality of the books, they're all either outside the MoM or too close to Fudge, or too close to Dumbledore or too close to Lord Thingy... From the point of view of who would make for the most interesting MoM for the books, I don't think someone who is either totally pro-Harry or totally pro-LV would make for a very interesting addition to the books... So how about the one competent member of the Ministry who is neither in Fudge's pocket, nor in Lucius's, nor is particularly fond of Harry? I think Amos Diggory is going to be the next MoM. From juli17 at aol.com Thu Jul 29 05:27:12 2004 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 01:27:12 EDT Subject: Regulus Black's son the HBP Message-ID: <1ab.273414b9.2e39e4b0@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 108052 Erika wrote: > >What if Regulus was trying to get out because he had fallen in love > >with a Muggle. What if he had a son? His son would be a Half Blood > >and a "prince", not in the literal sense. He would be the Half > >Blood Prince that would try to claim Sirius' inheritance! > > > > >What do you guys think of my wild theory? > > > >-Erika Hedwig Talons wrote: > Erika - > I think this is a great theory! That would make Regulus' child > potentially Harry's age or a bit older. (Unless Regulus never died, > and then the child could be younger.) If the child is 15 or older, > where has he been going to school? Will he transfer to Hogwarts? > > HedwigsTalons > Julie says: I agree, it's an interesting theory. I'm just not sure JKR would introduce a new and potentially major character so late in the series. Or could it be someone *already* in the books? If Regulus fell in love with a Muggle, and she bore his child, the child might have her last name. In that case it could be someone already at Hogwarts, or at another Wizarding school like Durmstrang. Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 29 06:08:09 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 06:08:09 -0000 Subject: New Maps Added to 'Speculative Geography' LINKS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108053 Some of you may know that I posted several maps in the 'Speculative Geography' section of the LINKS folder. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/links/Speculative_Geograph_000972354701/ I've just added four more maps. -Where in the World is Albania? (Maps, Photos, Info, and Links) -Where in the World is Wiltshire? (Malfoy Manor) -Where in the World is Surrey? (Maps, Data, and Links) -Where in the World is Grimmauld Place? (It's about a 20 minute walk from 12 Grimmauld Place to King's Cross Station. This is a map of London that has a 1 mile radius from King's Cross drawn on it. Most people have speculated that North of King's Cross is a likely area. Note, the road to the right of the SOHO district near the bottom of the map is Charring Cross Road. This file is 650kb, so not for slow internet connections.) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prevously posted Maps- -Where in the World is Hogwarts? (A series of Color Satellite Maps of Scotland Showing Possible Locations of Hogwarts.) -Where in the World is Drumstrang? (A series of Color Satellite Maps Showing Locations of Durmstrang.) -Where in the World are Dragons? (A series of Color Satellite Maps, and Photos of the Dragon Research Center in Romania.) The Satellite maps show towns & villages, primary and secondary rail lines, and roads. Most of these were posted on my webspace, and used in discussions here. After the discussion, I 'niced' them up a bit, and posted links. As long as I have them on the net already, I might as well make them available to people. Someone asked if they could use my Hogwarts maps at the last HP Convention. I wasn't there so I don't know if they were actually used, but I was honored to be asked. Steve/asian_lovr2: was bboy_mn: will soon be b_boymn From ryokas at hotmail.com Thu Jul 29 07:39:21 2004 From: ryokas at hotmail.com (kizor0) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 07:39:21 -0000 Subject: Lily and magic outside school In-Reply-To: <20040729034442.69928.qmail@web54101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108054 > Amlesis now: > > There may be a simpler explanation. After turning 16 and passing OWL wizards may no longer be underage. Just a thought. It could be due to inconsistencies in the terminology of the translated versions I read, but I've rationalized the magic-using ban as a spell-casting ban. After all, small explosions from the room of Fred and George (CoS, GoF) have been happening on several summers, including times when they were below OWL age. And according to Ginny (GoF), they were making what would become Weasleys' Wizarding Wheezes in there, which are definitely enchanted items. The enchantment we've seen (that doesn't count as Charms) features magic use but no actual spellcasting. Kizor From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 29 08:23:43 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:23:43 -0000 Subject: Snape's part in death of Sirius - Revised Time In-Reply-To: <20040728130901.57930.qmail@web50109.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108055 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich wrote: > > --- nkafkafi wrote: > > >Looking at this again, I don't think JKR has any holes in her > >timeline. In fact, the more I read the canon, the more I am > >convinced her timing is carefully planned. I would not be surprised > >if she actually looked at the same sunrise/sundown table I cited > >above. While not actually naming the hours, she gives us quite > >enough consistent detail to convict our poor Severus with nearly > >criminal negligence. I know, she's generally not very good with > >numbers and times, but I think in this case it is not she who is at > >fault. It's Snape. > Magda: > > ...edited... > > I'm not convinced by Neri's arguments or by the assertion that JKR > did such a detailed timeline. There are lots of sloppy details in > the series that show that JKR could do a better job of tightening > things up or at least get a sterner editor. > Asian_lovr2: Well, I was planning a long post to this thread but Magda pretty much stated my case. So all I can add is the dreaded and forbidden; I agree. Although, hopefully, I can add a tiny bit more than that. > Magda continues: > ... there might have been more hours between Snape leaving > the Umbridge's office and contacting Sirius and his second > contacting of the Order members than others have assumed. ..., > Potter shouts his weird statement, Snape responds, leaves and checks > on Sirius. Sirius is at GP. Okay. So no one's in any danger. > Snape goes back to grading papers or essays or whatever. > > There's really no reason for Snape to assume that something > different was going to happen that night or that Harry was going to > try to get to London. Asian_lovr2: This I think is the critical part of the timeline. From Snape's point of view there is no reason to panic. And remember, all the information Snape has is - (Chapt 23 - Out of The Fire) - Umbridge and the I-Squad have captured Harry and friends - Umbridge wants Veritaserum - Umbridge 'found Potter using my/her fire to communicate with a person or Persons unknown'. - Umbridge want to interogate Harry - Harry says "He's got Padfoot! ... He's got Padfoot at the place where it's hidden!" That's it. Whatever Snape says or does has to be constructed on that bank of information. First, I'm sure Snape gave it some thought. He surely ponder the meaning and significants of what Harry said, and weighed the need for action. Then Snape contacts the Order and finds that Sirius is safe and relatively sound. *I* believe Snape conveyed some basic information about what was going on; although to what extent I can't say. But there is really nothing going on that would warrant even a hot head like Sirius doing anything. Harry thought Sirius was in danger; Sirius was not. So, business as usual. > Magda continues: > > After all, Umbridge caught him using the fireplace floo as a > telephone, not a portal (this is one of my favourite dumb!Harry > moments in OOTP: he's desperate to GET to London but when he's in > front of Umbridge's fireplace and can floo there he just uses it > like a telephone. Amazing!). > Asian_lovr2: Here I take acception to this secondary point. Umbridge's office is just as restricted as all the other fireplaces in Hogwarts. The difference is that the Floo Regulation Department is not monitoring her private office fireplace. Floo Regulation is not monitoring but Hogwarts is still restricting. The overal series implies strongly and repeatedly that Hogwarts is protected from entrance and exit by magical means. Dumbledore is the exception, since he is Headmaster, he controls the protections and the exceptions. > Magda Continues: > > So a few hours go by and then a bedraggled Draco comes pounding > along the corridor to report what happened. ... Cause for > concern? Definitely, on the other hand Umbridge has a wand and > she's an adult. ... He'll give it some time and wait for them to > come back. > > Okay, there's STILL no reason to assume that Harry and Co. have gone > to London. Surely they wouldn't be THAT reckless and foolish? Asian_lovr2: I'm inclined to agree that Draco came to Snape, or that Snape heard that something had occurred in Umbridge's office from a third party and that lead him back to Umbridge's office. I don't think Snape would go back uninvited, and I don't see him concerned enough to linger for an extended period of time listening outside the door. Harry is in Umbridge's custody, everything is under control. This I think is the key unresolved part of the timeline. From the perspective of the Order, all Snape had to do was tell Harry that Sirius was OK. From the perspective of Snape, Sirius was at home and Harry was at school with the additional bonus that Harry was also in trouble; so all was right with the world. Nobody had to do anything at this time, and they didn't. At some point Draco told Snape about Harry going with Umbridge, and Harry's friends escaping. How long it took for this to happen we don't know. An additional point, Draco certainly knows Ron escaped, but does Draco know for a fact that Ron & friends went into the forest? How long did it take to determine that with a degree of certainty? Did the go back to Gryffindor tower and check? Did the check the Great Hall? How long did the look before they reached their conclusion? Of course, we don't really know any of those answer, but I still say relative to the timeline, they are key questions. So now we have reach some point in time when Snape knows Harry, Hermione, and Umbridge are stomping about the forest. He suspects that Ron and friends may have gone to look for him. Certainly this is a time for GREAT ANNOYANCE; that Potter kid is breaking rules right and left. But not really a time to panic. They are all in the forest, Umbridge is there, eventually they will all come back. > Magda concludes: > > But perhaps Potter is insisting on talking to Sirius face to face. > Perhaps they've succeeded in shaking off Umbridge and are making > their way to Hogsmeade to use an unsupervised floo in the village. > But that means they're more likely to be wandering around lost in > the woods. Better go out and find the little twits. To be on the > safe side, contact the Order and let them know what might be > happening in the MoM. He does and off the Order goes to the rescue. > > So I really believe that Snape thought the biggest danger Harry was > in was from something in the forest. That's why he took so long to > make the second call. He didn't know Harry was trying to GET to > London rather than just CALL there. > > Magda Asian_lovr2: In the first hour after Snape finds out the whole lot of them are out of bounds stomping about the woods, I suspect he was annoyed. After the next hour, he would probably become concerned. An hour after that, he would probably become worried. During the next hour Snape probably did a lot of thinking about all the things that could be happening in the woods; Centaur attack, Umbridge killed them all, they all killed Umbridge, maybe Harry is still trying to contact Sirius, maybe Harry still thinks Sirius is in trouble, maybe he's trying to find some way to get to London, maybe he's actually gone so far as to try to get to London, maybe after all this frustrated thinking, Snape decided he better not take any chances. Now Snape has to contact the Order and explain to them a relatively far fetched story. Harry, last seen in the woods with a teacher, May have thought he needed to get to London, may have found some highly unlikely method of getting to the Minstry of Magic, and may have found some highly unlikely way to do it in a reasonable amount of time. It is, after all, in the neighborhood of 450 miles, at 100mph that a 4.5 hour trip; at 200mph, it's a 2.25 hour trip. Even if he traveled by likely magical means, from deep inside the forest, it would reasonably take him a couple hours to get out and find an unrestricted Floo fireplace. I seriously doubted whether anyone considered they would capture and fly half a dozen Therstrals. So the timeline to the point where Snape knows everyone is in the forest is shifted to a later time. Then Snape, assuming everything is still reasonably under control, waits. With each progressive hour, he becomes more concerned until he becomes worried enough to consider the possibilities. After enough thinking, he concludes the worst, and contacts the Order, after which he /intends/ to search the forest. In the latest post by Neri/nkafkafi, we have the most recently revised timeline. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/108037 Most of which is pretty close. Neri has Snape's first contact at 8:15pm, the Order arriving at the Dept of Mysteries at 1:45am, and Harry back in Dumbledore's office at 3:00am. With the exception of the last one, those times seem a little off. I would put first contact a little later, and the Orders arrival a little earlier, but haven't worked out my own detailed timetable yet. It should be obvious by now from what I've said, that I don't see much wrong with Snape's actions or his timeline. I think my verion and Magda's easily accounts for the roughly 5 hour delay. I will admit that there may have been some delay because Snape's a jerk and hates Harry, but not enough to be considered negligent. For what it's worth. Steve/asian_lovr2 From eternal_riddle at yahoo.com Thu Jul 29 09:02:22 2004 From: eternal_riddle at yahoo.com (Anastasia) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:02:22 -0000 Subject: McGonagall and Flitwick Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108056 I'm really sorry if this has been discussed before. However, I couldn't find any posts about this, so here it goes. In PoA, Lupin indicates that DD became Headmaster when Remus was already several years old: "It seemed impossible that I would be able to come to Hogwarts [because of being a werewolf]... But then, Dumbledore *became* Headmaster,..." (emphasis mine) We already know from SS/PS that DD was the Transfiguration teacher. But then again, McGonagall tells Umbridge that she has been teaching at Hogwarts for 39 years in OotP! According to JKR, Snape (and therefore Lupin, too) is 35 or 36 years old. That leaves 2 possibilities: EITHER McGonagall or DD have been teaching something other than Transfiguration for several years OR DD was not at Hogwarts for several years before he was appointed Headmaster (which IMO is very unlikely). Strange, isn't it? Somehow I tend to think that McGonagall or DD might have taught DADA for a couple of years. By the way, I just realized that McGonagall seems not to be in the photograph of the original Order that Moody shows Harry. Of course, it could be that she is somewhere near Harry's parents, and Moody just didn't have time to point her out. I rule out the possibility that she wasn't in the Order, because she has taught at Hogwarts for so many years and is so close to DD... It is also possible that she wasn't there when the photograph was taken, but this would also indicate that several people might be missing. Now I come to the point which interests me - what about Flitwick? Was/Is he in the Order? As far as we know, Flitwick is clever and can use his wand properly (otherwise he wouldn't be Head of Ravenclaw). He's been teaching at Hogwarts since at least the Marauders' time. He's definitely very loyal to DD, although he is not as close to him as Minerva or Snape are. There isn't any canon telling us that there aren't more members in the Order than those we already know about. What do you think? Anastasia From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Thu Jul 29 09:29:03 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 05:29:03 -0400 Subject: JKR Speaks: Arthur Weasly will NOT be next Minister of Magic Message-ID: <002201c4754e$7d2a9ca0$4ac2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 108057 Jim said: "mask, in the MoM in the middle of the night. We'll have the testimony of Harry, Ron, Hermione, Luna, Neville, Dumbledore, Tonks, and Lupin." DuffyPoo now. You forgot Mad-Eye Moody and Kinglsey Shacklebolt. An Auror and ex-Auror. I think Malfoy is caught in a big rat-trap! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Thu Jul 29 10:26:32 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (Agnes Raggett) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 11:26:32 +0100 Subject: HBP Theories References: <1091074597.18378.25596.m25@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000001c47557$6846ee20$5edd86d9@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 108058 ~Yb <<>> Aggie: I thought about Colin for HBP. JKR told us in ~relatively~ uncertain terms that his Dad was a muggle (being a milkman) but IIRC there is nothing on his mum. This could mean that she is/was a witch or she is dead, or she just isn't important. If it's the case that she's not important, then why is his Dad important enough to mention? Whilst I'm typing this I have just thought that this idea is a no-no as he was the first to be petrified by the Basilisk, thus making him a muggle-born!! But does the Basilisk *only* petrify muggle-borns? Would it not 'work' on a half-blood too? Perhaps Colin's petrification was a mistake. I did wonder if Colin's mum was the part that JKR had removed to be used in book 6. <<< What if Regulus was trying to get out because he had fallen in love with a Muggle. What if he had a son? His son would be a Half Blood and a "prince", not in the literal sense. He would be the Half Blood Prince that would try to claim Sirius' inheritance! If this is correct, then this new character would be rather upset with Voldemort for killing his father. Therefore, he would be more than willing to join in the fight against him. On the other hand, this "prince" might detest his Muggle blood just like Voldemort and would decide to join the DE. What do you guys think of my wild theory? Aggie: What a great, original theory!! Don't think I've come across one on this theme before!! I think it has potential!! I like the idea that the son could be on either side!! I have nothing else to add really! Just thought I'd say Oh Goody, another theory to get thrashed around!! ;o) From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Thu Jul 29 10:33:43 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 06:33:43 -0400 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy - VERY LONG Message-ID: <004401c47557$86247fc0$4ac2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 108059 "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born to those who have thrice defied him...born as the seventh month dies..." (GoF) That is all of the prophecy that LV knows and he keeps it to himself. Doesn't want his DEs to know he's going to be vanquished by some brat kid. Since DD heard all of the prophecy, he has informed both the Potters and the Longbottoms and they go into hiding, both eventually being protected by a Fidelius Charm when regular protection just isn't working any longer. (Whether Frank and Alice are protected, or just Neville and his Grandmother, doesn't really matter here as long as Neville is hidden.) At the end of July LV finds out about the birth of both Harry Potter and Neville Longbottom. They both fit the prophecy. LV and his DEs are desperately trying to find out where the Potters and Longbottoms are hidden but LV doesn't tell the DEs why. Along comes Wormtail and spills the Potters' secret. While planning the attack on the Potters, LV still has his DEs searching for the Longbottoms and Potters in case Wormtail is wrong. (There is no doubt in my mind he is planning to off both kids, just to be safe. No point getting *the one* and finding out too late it was the other one.) Since he knows now where the Potters are hidden he goes there first, Lily sacrifices herself, the curse backfires, etc. Harry is considered to be *the one.* By DD, by the WW, by LV, and by the keeper of the Prophecies who changes the card from under the prophecy from Dark Lord & (?) to Dark Lord & Harry Potter. But.... What if DD is wrong? He believes it and because be believes it, we believe it too. We believe, because DD believes, that LV has marked HP as *the one* by the curse that rebounded, leaving the scar. We believe, because DD believes, that LV *chose* HP because they are both half-bloods. But what if those beliefs are wrong? If LV went to the Longbottoms first and killed Neville, we would *know* beyond any doubt, that HP is *the one,* but because HP is attacked first, and LV is *vanquished* we only assume HP is the one. Like everyone else assumes he is the one because the curse rebounded. LV believes HP is the one because the curse rebounded and sent him into vapourness. Circumstantial evidence. LV himself says: 'His mother left upon him the traces of her sacrifice...this is old magic...I should have remembered it, I was foolish to overlook it,' and 'I miscalculated my friends, I admit it. My curse was deflected by the woman's foolish sacrifice, and it rebounded on me.' (GoF) The curse was rebounded by the sacrifice, not by any special 'power the Dark Lord knows not' in Harry. Nothing special about Harry. Riddle knows that. 'So. Your mother died to save you. Yes, that's a powerful counter-charm. I can see now - there is nothing special about you after all.....But after all, it was merely a lucky chance that saved you from me. That's all I wanted to know." (CoS) The curse didn't rebound off Harry...it rebounded off his mother's sacrifice. This is the 'power the Dark Lord knows not' - LV himself says he has forgotten it, overlooked it. This power is within HP, certainly, but it is within DD and most of the kids at Hogwarts as well. The power of love, compassion, sympathy, empathy, caring, concern, devotion. LV has forgotten how to be human...HP and Neville, have not. If Lily hadn't been there to protect Harry that night, if she had stepped aside as LV told her to, HP may have been killed, and then LV would have moved on to Neville. Did Lily know that by sacrificing herself she would protect her son? Probably. Did she know the curse would rebound off the protection the way it did - probably not. But because Lily sacrificed herself for Harry, and the sacrifice saved him and rebounded on to LV, we all believe Harry is *THE ONE.* The DE's don't believe baby Potter vanquished their Master - how could a baby do that?! Bella, Rudy, Stan and Barty, Jr are on a campaign to find the Longbottoms believing that since LV found the Potters he must have found the Longbottoms as well. A few weeks/months go by and the Longbottoms feel safe enough to lift the Fidelius Charm. Caught by DEs who demand the Longbottoms tell them what they have done with LV,. the Longbottoms can only say what they believe to be true: LV attacked the Potter family and was somehow destroyed when he tried to kill the baby. The DEs don't know LV is after the baby Neville, just after the Longbottoms, Gran's got Neville well hidden anyway. The DEs don't believe what Frank and Alice said and torture them for the truth. Frank and Alice end up in St. Mungo's, and our four DE friends end up in Azkaban. Fast forward to the end of the story. HP and NL are battling it out against DEs at the end of book 7. LV turns up to get HP, Neville casts some spell at him and POOF - vanquished. They all turn to Neville and say "It was YOU, not Harry!" Neville's never had to live with the stigma attached to being the one so had nothing to live up to. He was just trying to protect Harry like he was there for him, to the end, in the DoM. DD's thinking "Holy crap, I had the wrong kid!" DuffyPoo [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Thu Jul 29 11:09:02 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 11:09:02 -0000 Subject: Late Bloomer WAS Re: Dudley & Late Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108060 "seanmulligan2000 > I think the late bloomer will be Filch. He will make a deal with > Voldemort so that he can get magical powers and then he will be > Voldemorts spy in Hogwarts. Aggie: This is a plausible theory but JKR says that the discovery of magic in the person is only because of a 'desperate moment'. This doesn't go along with the 'deal with LV plan' I'm afraid. I think (as mentioned by others) that it will probably be a one-off. From Lynx412 at AOL.com Thu Jul 29 11:14:38 2004 From: Lynx412 at AOL.com (Lynx412 at AOL.com) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 07:14:38 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily and magic Outside School Message-ID: <7b.2f8c1fde.2e3a361e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 108061 In a message dated 7/28/2004 11:40:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, LadyNeptune6627 at aol.com writes: > However, it's possible that Petunia, in her jealousy, could have > exaggerated > what Lily had done at home. In partial, my copy of SS (American version, > paperback, p. 53): > > "[Lily] came home every vacation with her pockets full of frog spawn, > turning > teacups into rats. I was the only one who saw her for what she was--a > freak! But for my mother and father, oh no, it was Lily this and Lily that, > they > were proud of having a witch in the family!" Hm. here's an odd, off hand thought. Perhaps she wasn't doing magic. Perhaps someone was playing a prank, using a little slight-of-hand with a teacup and a rat, one named Peter? The Other Cheryl [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jul 29 11:27:21 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 11:27:21 -0000 Subject: McGonagall and Flitwick In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108062 Anastasia wrote: > > That leaves 2 possibilities: EITHER McGonagall or DD have been > teaching something other than Transfiguration for several years OR > DD was not at Hogwarts for several years before he was appointed > Headmaster (which IMO is very unlikely). Potioncat: I think either possibility is very likely. We could assume DD was Deputy Headmaster, (teaching DADA?). But he could very easily have been working with Flammel. (Do we have dates for that?) Headmistress Derwent wasn't at Hogwarts prior to becomming the Headmistress... she was a Healer at St. Mungos (according to her portrait in St. Mungos) And given how in the RW people often have many jobs over a 30--40 year span, I'd think it very reasonable for wizards to do the same. > snip > Anastasia: > By the way, I just realized that McGonagall seems not to be in the > photograph of the original Order that Moody shows Harry. > snip >Now I come to the point which interests me - what about > Flitwick? Was/Is he in the Order? snip Potioncat: We know that both Flitwick and McGonagall were at Hogwarts during the last war. I don't think we know what they were doing. But just because they're friends of DD's and on the right side, doesn't mean they would be a part of a private army. We know the Weasleys weren't. > >Potioncat From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Thu Jul 29 11:42:53 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 11:42:53 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy In-Reply-To: <004401c47557$86247fc0$4ac2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108063 DuffyPoo: <<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Fast forward to the end of the story. HP and NL are battling it out against DEs at the end of book 7. LV turns up to get HP, Neville casts some spell at him and POOF - vanquished. They all turn to Neville and say "It was YOU, not Harry!" Neville's never had to live with the stigma attached to being the one so had nothing to live up to. He was just trying to protect Harry like he was there for him, to the end, in the DoM. DD's thinking "Holy crap, I had the wrong kid!">>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Aggie: I have pondered this myself. Do you think that JKR will be purposely misleading us for the entire 7 books though? It's a good thought and I love the idea of Neville becoming more. On her 'edit' section on her web site when she mentions Dean's background and says that she wanted to concentrate on Neville instead, this could indicate greater things for him. On the other hand it could just mean that Neville is only slightly more important than Dean! I would LOVE for this theory to be realised but I don't think that JKR would be that sly. Just think of the reaction to all those Harry worshippers out there!!!! ;o)) This is a bit more than a *Mark Evans*!!! From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 29 12:02:07 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:02:07 -0000 Subject: Snape a vampire? (was Snape's Patronus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108064 "ariston3344" wrote: > Luckdragon wrote: > > Actually if I have the right quotation you are referring to JKR > > when asked if Snape is a vampire says, "Erm...I don't think so". > > This is not a flat out denial! She seems to hedge around a bit > > rather than saying "No!" Maybe a direct answer would have given > > too much away. > Of course, she *could* intentionally be hiding something here, > too. :-) We can't necessarily tell *how* she said it, or whether she's smiling. The emphasis might be on "don't" and the pause for crogglement: Erm ...[how stupid ARE these people?]... I DON'T think so! Or the emphasis might be on "think" if it's the fifth stupid question in a row, and the pause for self-control: Erm ... I don't THINK so [is ANYBODY going to ask a proper question?] HTH HAND -- Phil From meriaugust at yahoo.com Thu Jul 29 12:04:21 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:04:21 -0000 Subject: McGonagall and Flitwick In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108065 snip > Anastasia: > > By the way, I just realized that McGonagall seems not to be in the > > photograph of the original Order that Moody shows Harry. > > snip > >Now I come to the point which interests me - what about > > Flitwick? Was/Is he in the Order? > snip > > Potioncat: > We know that both Flitwick and McGonagall were at Hogwarts during > the last war. I don't think we know what they were doing. But just > because they're friends of DD's and on the right side, doesn't mean > they would be a part of a private army. We know the Weasleys > weren't. > > > >Potioncat Yes, but remeber back then the Order wasn't a private army, it was just a collective of people who resisted LV. I would bet that there were a lot of people involved in the struggle, including MM and Flitwick, that weren't present for that photo. Meri From drliss at comcast.net Thu Jul 29 12:11:47 2004 From: drliss at comcast.net (drliss at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:11:47 +0000 Subject: "Alas", how about Umbridge as new MoM Message-ID: <072920041211.5903.4108E983000388CC0000170F22007511509C9C07049D0B@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 108066 Shell: > But, as to who to place as the MoM, that's a good question. > Personally, I would love to see Lupin there. Yes, yes, he is a > werewolf, but can you imagine the mayhem it would cause? Alla: Yes, it would be fun, but I think that poor remus stillc annot get any oficial job, right? Umbridge act is still active? (Correct me if I am wrong) Lissa: It's not so much Umbridge as the legislation she forced through! Even if Umbridge herself isn't active, the law's still on the books. She could be dead, and unless someone repeals the law, Remus is still out of luck. And if she managed to get it through, there's probably a lot of people that agree with her, deep down. I can't see Lupin being up to the MoM job anyway. He couldn't handle a bunch of parents not wanting him to be a Prof- there's no way he'd be able to cope with the opposition that would come with him being a Minister! I know it wasn't a serious suggestion, and more fun just thinking about the consequences, but oooh... that boy would be running so fast from that job.... Liss [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 29 12:27:50 2004 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:27:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: A favor to ask re christian allegory, alchemy, and Stoned!Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040729122750.18285.qmail@web25102.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 108067 --- gregory_lynn wrote: --------------------------------- Late last week there was a little discussion of the notion of Harry as the Philosopher's Stone incarnate, with a link to a summary post which I found fascinating. It got me thinking of the potential for Harry not as a Christ figure, but as a Moses figure. Then I was wondering how that would fit with the Stoned!Harry idea. Anyway, I want to do more research but have relatively little time so I'm hoping some of y'all can point me in the right direction. Hans: Fascinating idea Greg! Thanks for the challenge. I'm definitely going to turn my mind to this subject. At this moment I can think only of a couple of disjointed ideas. Certainly orphaned Harry being found on the Dursleys' doorstep is reminiscent of Moses in the basket being found by the Princess. As you may be aware I've often pointed out that there is an amazing number of parallels between "Harry Potter" and the "The Alchemical Wedding of Christian Rosycross", published in 1616. Well, on the fourth day there's a play being performed which has the same theme: a little princess is found in a casket floating on the water. That play is well worth reading to those interested in the teachings of liberation by the way, as there are other references to the Old Testament there. There also also some extremely vivid connections with HP! Moses too was a parseltongue (in my mind), as he turned his staff into a serpent. (No OK he didn't literally have a chat with it, I know). Then there was the copper serpent the Jews looked at to be healed. That was during the 40 years wandering through the wilderness. All connected, I'm sure. Of course Moses was a leader as is Harry. Both of them reluctant too. I think there's something to be gained by looking at the differences between Harry and Moses too. For example poor old Moses never entered the promised land. I'm sure Harry will. I agree with Geoff that the best thing is to read Exodus. If you read it with an open heart and with Harry clearly before your consciousness you'll find the answer. I'm certainly going to do the same thing. And I hope theologians will forgive me if I get my Biblical facts not quite right. I'm just telling you what I remember at the moment. Greg again: Where can I find more info about the process of making the Philosopher's Stone? Preferably with reference to the world of Harry Potter? Despite what Jo says about Flamel making the Stone, you'll find that no human being can do so. It can be made only by God himself. We all possess one in the heart and if we use it the right way, i.e. not for getting wealth or extending our physical life, but by having our own inner Harry make our decisions for us, it will turn our being into the Gold of the Spirit and give us the Elixir of Life. Greg: In the Stoned!Harry summary post there was much discussion of beheadings. Where did this come from and where can I find more info? Hans: See my post 106899 - No. 4. Greg: Incidentally, I think you can look at the trio as aspects of one person which would make Hermione the head not because she's smart but because she's the one who thinks and is responsible. So if there is a beheading, it could be the death of Hermione and Harry could be faced with the choice of surrendering potential immortality to resurrect her. Hans: See post 106899. I shall be thinking about this in the coming months, so please don't expect any news in the next few days. However I'm convinced I will find parallels between Harry and Moses, as the Old Testament is another symbolical road map to liberation, just like HP. However I prefer the New Testament as the consciousness of humanity has changed over the millennia and the NT is speaks clearer language for the modern person. However I think HP speaks the most clearly of all, because it's aimed at the person of the third millennium. For example at the time of the OT people were not so intellectually conscious as we are today, and people had more of a group- or race-consciousness than an individualised consciousness. In those days it was necessary for people to have rules imposed on them, hence the Ten Commandments. Harry Potter is the exact opposite. The whole point there is that Harry does not live by rules but by the Law written in his heart. This is what Paul calls the letter written on the fleshy tables of the heart. But this inner law is not recognised by the established powers of this world, which is why Harry is always in trouble. I know you're busy Greg, but may I argue that these things are not just a matter of literature and entertainment. In actual fact we're talking about the purpose of life. That's what Harry Potter is about. That's what the Bible is about. Hans ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Thu Jul 29 12:37:29 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:37:29 -0000 Subject: Fudge and Harry as Gryffindor's heir In-Reply-To: <20040729044531.30903.qmail@webmail30.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108068 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amey Chinchorkar" wrote: > said Dumbledore calmly. "Listen to me, Harry. You happen to have many qualities Salazar Slytherin prized in his hand-picked students. His own very rare gift, Parseltongue -resourcefulness - determination -- a certain disregard for rules," he added, his mustache quivering again. (CoS). So, does this mean that the powers Voldemort transferred to Harry overshadowed the traits he inherited from Gryffindor? Must be pretty thin blood connection then. Also, 'I thought,' said Phineas Nigellus, stroking his pointed beard, 'that to belong in Gryffindor house you were supposed to be brave! It looks to me as though you would have been better off in my own house. We Slytherins are brave, yes, but not stupid. For instance, given the choice, we will always choose to save our own necks.' (OOtP) What I feel from these two is, Harry might be a true Gryffindor, portraying the characteristics Gryffindor valued, bravery and all. But to make him the actual descendent (or ancestor, as JKR might say) of Gryffindor would take out the whole point of the story. The story is about powers you have and how you use them, not the powers you inherit and so you have to use them that way. snip. > That's a point worth making. There's been a lot of discussion re Gryffs, Huffs and Slyths and their supposed House characteristics, most of which have ignored fact that the supposed traits mean nothing taken in isolation. What's the point of being brave if you don't also exercise judgement? Bravery *of itself* is not a virtue; it needs to be expressed at the right time, in the right place for the right reasons. Otherwise it's indistinguishable from rash stupidity. (Sirius, anyone? Or Harry's 'rescue mission' to the Ministry?) The way DD describes Slytherins in the quote above makes them sound like a pretty cool bunch - and it's also an accurate precis of Harry and (apart from perhaps the Parseltongue) even DD. There's nothing particularly reprehensible about being ambitious or cunning; it all depends on how you use those attributes and what your aims are. Being born a pure-blood is not exactly a matter of choice, neither is being Muggle-born; how one reacts to that circumstance is. The Sorting Hat was meant to be the replacement for the Four; a device to determine where each student would be best placed. It originally belonged to G.G. but all of them contributed to its critical faculties: "The founders put some brains in me" (GoF) Presumably it balances traits and potential and arrives at a conclusion, though I have theorised previously that it may have been fixed on a couple of occasions (Harry, Hermione, Neville - Ron is the true and typical Gryffindor, and before that with Sirius, Lupin and Peter - James being the 'real' Gryffindor.) Neville is really a Huff. Not really good at anything. Just because he's better at Herbology than his other subjects doesn't mean much. He's barely C+ overall and Herbology isn't a subject that requires much magical skill anyway. "Ah!" posters say, "that's because he used his fathers wand." Tripe, says I. It's because he has so little magical content that he was thought by his family to be "all Muggle." If he were an animagus he'd be a hamster. And the Hat took a hell of a time to sort him - but we don't know what it said. Hermione is a natural Ravenclaw, even she says the Hat seriously considered placing her there. And so far I don't see the level of 'bravery' in her that being in Gryffindor implies. Certainly there's no more evident in her than in say, Luna. Harry, now. We may never know what Harry truly is. "What?" you cry "how can this be?" Easy. Harry is not solely Harry. There's somebody else in there with him - Voldy!Tom. That scar - it's not just a transfer of powers, personality was transferred as well. Much has been made of Harry 'recognising' Tom - all sorts of theories from presentiment right down into the murky depths of time travel. Much less has been made of the fact that Tom recognises Harry. "So. Your mother died to save you. That's a powerful counter-charm. I can see now - there is nothing special about you after all. I wondered you see. Because there are strange likenesses between us....Probably the only two Parselmouths to come to Hogwarts since the great Slytherin himself. We even look something alike..." (CoS) What Tom sees is part of himself, transferred along with the powers. And Voldy!Tom is probably pure Slytherin fodder, even without the possibility that there's some of the original Salazar in Voldy too. "Nothing special about you..." Oh dear. Would-be Ruler of the Universe cocks it up again. How wrong can you be? Is that Tom pulling the wool over his own eyes or JKR trying to pull it over ours? Harry is more than just Harry. Bloody obvious. Given a free choice where else but Slytherin would the Hat have placed Harry given that there are bits in there that have already achieved their potential for being differently moralled and boundlessly ambitious? Heir of this, that or the other is going to be largely irrelevant IMO; such labels won't be the determining factor that tells us what a character will do, but will be applied retrospectively to identify what they actually did. It'll all depend on those choices. Kneasy From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 29 13:14:02 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:14:02 -0000 Subject: The Titlings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108069 "amphibi_pro" wrote: > Hi, I'm Chris from Indonesia, I've joined this group for more than > 6 months but this is actually my first post..lol. > > Now, we know that the next title's going to be 'Harry Potter and > the Half Blood Prince' which seems to be like a pattern: > > SS,GF : an item that brought Harry face to face with Voldemort > CS,OP : a place or group of people in which the people, if not > pros, against the pureblood idealism > PA : a man that's related to Harry > > If this pattern is true and I don't make mistake on drawing the > conclusion, then this halfblood prince would surely has some > relation with Harry also. SSSusan: Hi there, Chris. Welcome to posting! I have a question about this. Can you say more about Sirius being *related* to Harry? I guess I don't see it. Sirius was not a relative of James or Lily (that we know of); he was merely chosen to be Harry's godfather. Perhaps you're using "related to" in a way different than I'm taking it, though. Could you expand on this a little more? Siriusly Snapey Susan From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Thu Jul 29 13:21:06 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:21:06 -0400 Subject: Lily and magic Outside School Message-ID: <003001c4756e$e98004b0$bfc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 108070 DuffyPoo now: > > I don't think so. I think, if she truly had done magic at home > > in vacation, and it wasn't just Petunia's ranting, then the rule > > must have been changed at some point between her time at Hogwarts > > and Harry's. Amlesis now: "There may be a simpler explanation. After turning 16 and passing OWL wizards may no longer be underage. Just a thought." DuffyPoo again: But from what we know right now, it is after the age of 17 that wizard are considered *of age* and allowed to use magic outside of Hogwarts. Fred & George & Percy had to wait until they were of age (17) to take their apparition tests. It is the summer of OotP, after F&G turn 17 in April, that they apparate everywhere and use magic for everything, to their mother's frustration. *Some* rule would have had to have been changed between Lily's time at Hogwarts and Harry's. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Thu Jul 29 13:22:11 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:22:11 -0400 Subject: Regulus Black's son the HBP Message-ID: <003401c4756f$0eb61490$bfc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 108071 > > What if Regulus was trying to get out because he had fallen in love > > with a Muggle. What if he had a son? His son would be a Half Blood > > and a "prince", not in the literal sense. He would be the Half > > Blood Prince that would try to claim Sirius' inheritance! > > > > > What do you guys think of my wild theory? > > > > -Erika > > Erika - > I think this is a great theory! That would make Regulus' child > potentially Harry's age or a bit older. (Unless Regulus never died, > and then the child could be younger.) If the child is 15 or older, > where has he been going to school? Will he transfer to Hogwarts? > > HedwigsTalons Angela: "How about it turns to be Dean Thomas? In her edits, Jo told us that Dean's father is a wizard (without the knowledge of Dean's mother) and was killed by death eaters. Interesting enough is that this pcs of information was cut from the Chamber of Secrets." DuffyPoo now. Wow, this is all too interesting. How much younger than Sirius is Regulus? Wouldn't it be interesting if JKR lead us astray on her website, saying Dean's story would be left out now because of Neville's? The Lexicon shows Regulus' date of birth as 1961? No way to know for sure without info from JKR. It certainly is a possibility. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jul 29 13:25:43 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:25:43 -0000 Subject: McGonagall and Flitwick In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108072 -Meri wrote: > > Yes, but remeber back then the Order wasn't a private army, it was > just a collective of people who resisted LV. I would bet that there > were a lot of people involved in the struggle, including MM and > Flitwick, that weren't present for that photo. Potioncat: Oops, private army probably wasn't the best choice of words. The Order of the Phoenix is a group of organised resistance fighters. (does that sound correct?) My point is really that we know "some" of the Order members from before and "some" of the Order members now. But we do not know if either McGonagall (member now) or Flickwick were in the Order earlier. And their not being in it would only mean they weren't in it. Snape worked with DD against LV, but he wouldn't be considered a member of the Order at that time. He is now. Does that make sense? Potioncat From TonyaMinton at hotmail.com Thu Jul 29 13:41:17 2004 From: TonyaMinton at hotmail.com (tonyaminton) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:41:17 -0000 Subject: Timelines In-Reply-To: <4108B869.1101.2BB7945@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108073 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" wrote: > [Actually equally valid questions could be asked if Hogwarts even > uses time based on the same meridians as Muggle Britain - they > could be on 'Hogsmeade Mean Time', which depending on where > Hogwarts is would be offset from GMT by a period of minutes, and > would be horribly confusing...] Tonya here: Good point!! I think like Pippen, that the wizard world has adopted the muggle timeline to make life easier. I also think that they run on a different schedule, a little more laid back (except for classes and tardiness I would assume) not so rushed, not so harried. Look at POA and Honeydukes they closed down the shop at night fall because of the Dementors were patrolling the streets, well that changes every day. Of course this could be my impression because I see the wizard world as a dream place to live in. Therefore it must not be as stressful as rush hour traffic, drive by shootings, wrong sides of town, and be careful who and what you say to people about yourself. Tonya From bethg2 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 29 13:45:58 2004 From: bethg2 at yahoo.com (bethg2 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:45:58 -0000 Subject: Regulus Black's son the HBP or ..... In-Reply-To: <003401c4756f$0eb61490$bfc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108074 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cathy Drolet" wrote: > > > What if Regulus was trying to get out because he had fallen in > love > > > with a Muggle. What if he had a son? His son would be a Half > Blood > > > and a "prince", not in the literal sense. He would be the Half > > > Blood Prince that would try to claim Sirius' inheritance! > > > > > > > > What do you guys think of my wild theory? > > > > > > -Erika > > > > Erika - > > I think this is a great theory! That would make Regulus' child > > potentially Harry's age or a bit older. (Unless Regulus never died, > > and then the child could be younger.) If the child is 15 or older, > > where has he been going to school? Will he transfer to Hogwarts? > > > > HedwigsTalons > Beth now: While the inheritance angle is interesting I couldn't help thinking tthat alot of what is said about Regulus could apply to Severus as well. JKR said that there was more information about the teacher's families, maybe the HBP is Snape's son. Could one of these men's sons be the often theorized "good slytherin"? Beth From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Jul 29 13:51:07 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:51:07 -0000 Subject: Fudge and Harry as Gryffindor's heir In-Reply-To: <20040729044531.30903.qmail@webmail30.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108075 Amey: > What I feel from these two is, Harry might be a true Gryffindor, portraying the characteristics Gryffindor valued, bravery and all. But to make him the actual descendent (or ancestor, as JKR might say) of Gryffindor would take out the whole point of the story. The story is about powers you have and how you use them, not the powers you inherit and so you have to use them that way. Jen: Ah, but that's the hardest choice of all. What do you do about the traits you inherit that you don't care for, that block you, that are hard to overcome? I'm warming to the idea that Harry is a descendant of Gryffindor, but still think he has to choose who he will be because of (or in spite of) his ancestry & The Curse That Failed. Harry could have an easier life than he does, not go looking for trouble, let Dumbledore decide everything for him, whatever. But he doesn't. You're right that it doesn't really matter who he is, that he embodies Gryffindor bravery at times and that's what's important. But *more* important are the traits he has to learn to control, to come to terms with, to stop denying. He *is* a Parseltongue, he has a certain disregard for the rules, he *is* ambitious--what's more ambitious than trying to defeat the Dark Lord?!? But Harry doesn't want to see those parts of himself and cuts them off as 'bad'. He has to come to terms with them or they will continue to cause him trouble. Amey: Bloodline is not important, but yes, spiritually Harry is a true Gryffindor (at least till GoF and somewhere at the end of OOtP). If anybody wants to see what a true heir of Gryffindor looks like, go upto the stone gargoyle, say "Fizzing Whizzbee" and going up the staircase, knock using the Gryffin knocker. You will find the person stroking a phoenix sporting the colours of Gryffindor house (At least in my opinion). ;D Jen: But JKR is the one who made a person's bloodline important, if only to overcome it in the end! She already tells us Riddle is the last descendant (whatever) of Slytherin. He chose to believe in Slyterin's "noble" work and take it to the extreme. Harry could also choose to be a Barty Crouch, Sr. and take his hate for the Dark Arts and Voldemort to an extreme. But he hasn't and won't. I agree with you about Dumbledore, though ;). Regardless of his origins (and I think we'll find out more history on him in Book 6), he is a 'true Gryffindor' as well. Jen From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Thu Jul 29 13:55:27 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:55:27 -0400 Subject: McGonagall and Flitwick Message-ID: <004601c47573$b474aa50$bfc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 108076 Anastasia said: "By the way, I just realized that McGonagall seems not to be in the photograph of the original Order that Moody shows Harry. Of course, it could be that she is somewhere near Harry's parents, and Moody just didn't have time to point her out. I rule out the possibility that she wasn't in the Order, because she has taught at Hogwarts for so many years and is so close to DD..." DuffyPoo now: In OotP Sirius tells Harry that the world isn't divided into good people and Death Eaters. (they were complaining about Umbridge being evil) I think it is the same thing with the Order. I think that picture showed everybody who was a member at that time. They were outnumbered, then, it is said, 20 to 1. It was a small group. People have other commitments in life. Certainly fighting LV is a big one but there were bad people abroad - the Blacks for instance - who weren't DEs. Flitwick may have well be on the side of good, and for whatever personal reasons, felt he couldn't make the committment to be a member of the Order. Arthur and Molly Weasley weren't in that picture either. Nor was Fudge, Crouch Sr, Mr. Diggory, etc. We don't know a great deal about McGonagall's back story. She may have been married with children and was afraid of harm coming to them (not unlike the backstory of Dean Thomas on JKRs website where Dean's real father left to protect him and his mother). Maybe Flitwick & McGonagall felt they couldn't make the committment to be members of the Order simply *because* they were teachers at Hogwarts. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 29 13:59:36 2004 From: phil_hp7 at yahoo.co.uk (Phil Boswell) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:59:36 -0000 Subject: The HBP is DEAD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108077 "rebeccatrishel" wrote: [snip] > ... I want to know, "Why did J.K. Rowling leave out the hyphen > between half and blood? To drive me crazy until the book comes out?" ... except that now she's using the Hyphen. We had to re-title the Wikipedia article because it now appears (!%$?*&) that the omission of the hyphen was a mistake since JKR has used one in every reference since the first. Of course we can't now go back and check whether she's updated the book-behind-the-door because the spodding door has closed again :-( HTH HAND -- Phil From drliss at comcast.net Thu Jul 29 13:26:05 2004 From: drliss at comcast.net (drliss at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:26:05 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 5005 Message-ID: <072920041326.2665.4108FAEC000B664300000A6922007637049C9C07049D0B@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 108078 Jim said: "mask, in the MoM in the middle of the night. We'll have the testimony of Harry, Ron, Hermione, Luna, Neville, Dumbledore, Tonks, and Lupin." DuffyPoo now. You forgot Mad-Eye Moody and Kinglsey Shacklebolt. An Auror and ex-Auror. I think Malfoy is caught in a big rat-trap! Lissa: How many of those people's testimony will be accepted though? In PoA, Dumbledore says that Sirius will not be cleared because of the word of three thirteen year old wizards and a werewolf. The Trio's aged a bit, but they're still kids. I think that eliminates ALL the kids (especially since the fact that all of them but Luna have Issues with the Malfoys is very well known, just by their behavior with Draco at school). Lupin's still a werewolf, so his testimony's pretty much out. Fudge and his cohorts aren't listening to Dumbledore- and if anyone believes he's after power, they won't listen either. Mad-Eye Moody WAS respected, but people don't quite believe him these days. Tonks and Shacklebolt, on the other hand... I can't come up with a good argument there. It's still possible someone as slippery as Malfoy could worm his way out of this one. Most of his opponents just aren't in the best standing with the rest of the Wizarding World! Lissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From amycrn4230 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 29 14:07:44 2004 From: amycrn4230 at yahoo.com (amycrn4230) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:07:44 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108079 DuffyPoo: <<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fast forward to the end of the story. HP and NL are battling it out against DEs at the end of book 7. LV turns up to get HP, Neville casts some spell at him and POOF - vanquished. They all turn to Neville and say "It was YOU, not Harry!" Neville's never had to live with the stigma attached to being the one so had nothing to live up to. He was just trying to protect Harry like he was there for him, to the end, in the DoM. DD's thinking "Holy crap, I had the wrong kid!">> Aggie: > I have pondered this myself. Do you think that JKR will be purposely misleading us for the entire 7 books though? It's a good thought and I love the idea of Neville becoming more. On her 'edit' section on her web site when she mentions Dean's background and says that she wanted to concentrate on Neville instead, this could indicate greater things for him. On the other hand it could just mean that Neville is only slightly more important than Dean! <> Amy: I too like this theory and think if this did happen it would not neccessarily be detrimental to the Harry fans: myself being one. I think we would still be left with a prophecy gone askew...LV got it wrong, but still managed to mark Harry as his equal and transfers some of his powers to Harry.... What are we left with? 1. Neville gets his days in the limelight, and is now known as more than just a bumbling shadow of Harry...he was supposed to be THE ONE and is now respected as the hero of the day...& 2. Harry has great and awesome powers because of the transfer of LV powers, and is still the one who lived...he is an awesome wizard...may be better that LV, and DD combined one of these days, so will not lose any respect IMHO...great friendship may develop with Neville & Harry...closer than now, because they fought together and defeated LV those last 3 years of school...and all's well that ends well, I say. From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Jul 29 14:18:55 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:18:55 -0000 Subject: What Kreacher knew, was RE: Sirius's part In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108080 > Pippin before: > > You left out 3) underestimating Kreacher. JKR has said we'll understand why Sirius had to die. I think that means it wasn't a random killing. Snape's involvement is a sideshow. > SSSusan again: > Yikes--I certainly did! That was a huge oversight on my part, > because of course you're right that he played a role in this death as large as any of the others outside of Bellatrix & Sirius > himself. > > > Pippin: with the last of the Blacks dead, Kreacher could leave the house, thus escaping further questioning. What did he know? Something about the Malfoys? Or something about someone *in* the house< > > > SSSusan: > Hee!! Look at you, Pippin--you didn't even use this perfect opening to openly revisit your position that it was ESE!Lupin "pulling the trigger" on Sirius! :-) I will concede that **if** Bella didn't fire the final curse, then of course we'll have to open up the Blame Game to whomever it was who did. [NEVER Lupin-no, no!! He's ESS! Lupin (that is, Ever-So-Sweet!Lupin).] > > What is it that you suspect Kreacher knows that hasn't come out yet? DD already believes, after using his "persuasive" techniques on Kreacher, that he was acting that night on the Malfoys' instructions. Do you think he knows *more* about them, or do you think the "someone" in the house that Kreacher knows "something" about is Lupin?< Pippin: I didn't want to drag the discussion into ESE!Lupin territory, because that would inevitably divert the discussion from what Kreacher knew to Lupin's character. (I apologize to those who have raised objections to ESE!Lupin that have gone unanswered. The comprehensive ESE!Lupin post you deserve is being worked on--trouble is, it shows signs of rivalling the Crouch Ennead in length ;-) ) So, back to Kreacher... The Malfoys have had experience with two treacherous House Elves now--unlike Sirius, they aren't likely to be indifferent to the danger that even some fact thought too trivial to conceal could betray them. Narcissa is Bellatrix's sister and may have shared this information with her. Further, Dumbledore's arrival tips the scales in favor of Harry's survival, and that means Kreacher's conversation with Harry will be discovered, if it hasn't been already. We don't know exactly how Kreacher was communicating with the Malfoys--but he had to have some way of knowing when it was time to injure Buckbeak and to signal that he'd delivered his message to Harry. The DE's might not want their secret, secure means of communication discovered. Then there is the evidence of another spy. The last we heard Hermione thought Lucius had guessed Sturgis Podmore was on guard and Imperius'd him while he (Sturgis) was standing invisibly in front of the door to the DoM. Not up to her usual standard, that. Supposing you *can* put Imperius on an invisible person, (remember eye contact is important ), you wouldn't know it had taken. "...watch his eyes, that's where you see it-" GoF ch14. Lucius would want to be sure...pretending to be under Imperius would be an excellent way to set up a sting. Kreacher might not have the same clues that we have, as we don't have the same clues that Hermione has that Lupin is a werewolf. But the Elf might have noticed something. Pippin From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Thu Jul 29 14:21:02 2004 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:21:02 -0000 Subject: Fudge and Harry as Gryffindor's heir In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108081 > Kneasy wrote : > Harry, now. We may never know what Harry truly is. "What?" you cry "how can this be?" Easy. Harry is not solely Harry. There's somebody else in there with him - Voldy!Tom. That scar - it's not just a transfer of powers, personality was transferred as well. Much has been made of Harry 'recognising' Tom - all sorts of theories from presentiment right down into the murky depths of time travel. Much less has been made of the fact that Tom recognises Harry. > "So. Your mother died to save you. That's a powerful counter-charm. I can see now - there is nothing special about you after all. I wondered you see. Because there are strange likenesses between us....Probably the only two Parselmouths to come to Hogwarts since the great Slytherin himself. We even look something alike..." (CoS) > What Tom sees is part of himself, transferred along with the powers. And Voldy!Tom is probably pure Slytherin fodder, even without the possibility that there's some of the original Salazar in Voldy too. < boyd: Then we're in agreement, Kneasy? Had not Lily's sacrifice embedded parts of LV in baby Harry, he might be a mere squib? Let's see, he's a strong wizard for his age, just like LV was, he uses the *same* wand as LV, he's a parselmouth, and they even look a bit alike. Could it be that Squib!Harry got *all* his powers from Voldie? Boy, if pure-blooded, arrogant James had known baby Harry to be a squib, he might have been upset enough to...to...hand Harry over to LV to save himself and Lily? See post #107977 (SHH) JAM TAKES BIBS for a very subversive theory that could be sadly true. --boyd From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Thu Jul 29 14:25:42 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:25:42 -0400 Subject: Lily and magic outside school Message-ID: <004f01c47577$ee84dfe0$bfc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 108082 Kizor said: "After all, small explosions from the room of Fred and George (CoS, GoF) have been happening on several summers, including times when they were below OWL age. And according to Ginny (GoF), they were making what would become Weasleys' Wizarding Wheezes in there, which are definitely enchanted items." DuffyPoo now: I've always considered that stuff to be 'potiony' type things. Stuff they could do with a Muggle chemistry set, kind of. While I think the MoM may be able to stop underage wizards using wands to create magic, I think they would have a harder time detecting mixing up of concotions to create, say, ton-tongue toffees. 'We spent six months developing those!' Fred shouted at his mother, as she threw the toffees away. Most of that six months was time at Hogwarts, anyway. They also said, 'we've been looking for someone to test them on all summer...' They could have been finished just before school let out for the summer, and no one in the Weasley family would be stupid enough to eat them, as a tester. Also, Ginny said 'We've been hearing explosions out of their room for ages, but we never thought they were actually making things, we thought they just liked the noise.' We also know that F&G know a lot about Muggle tricks, like using a hairpin to pick locks...stuff that most wizards think is a waste of time to know. F&G thought 'they're skills worth learning, even if they are a bit slow.' After all, they spend 10 months at school and two at home (approximately). I think most of the stuff was developed at school They're planning on starting a joke shop, they don't want to get caught by the ministry and be expelled/have their wands snapped. They're obviously both quite intelligent kids to come up with this stuff. Even Hermione is impressed by the Headless Hats when before that she said 'Oh, they only know flashy stuff that's of no real use to anyone.' [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Thu Jul 29 14:26:29 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 29 Jul 2004 14:26:29 -0000 Subject: R2, Flitwick, Lucius as next MoM Message-ID: <20040729142629.17779.qmail@webmail30.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 108083 - Michal - Regulus II aka R2 (whether a son or daughter) has to be Harry's age or - older give the date of Regulus' murder. R2 could still be at Hogwarts or - could be a student at Durmstrang or Beauxbatons (lousy spelling). Wouldn't - it be funny if it was Krum? But no, we met his parent's unless that was his - step-father. Amey: Viktor Krum was over in a corner, conversing with his dark-haired mother and father in rapid Bulgarian. He had inherited his fathers hooked nose. (GoF just before third task). I know it?s flimsy, but I think Krum is not R2. What about Nott? He is *good* Slytherin (I think), he is Pureblood (yes, Regulus would have married *respectably* pureblood), but he is neutral till now. He doesn?t seem to despise Harry or say anything to him at the end of OOtP, even though his father is caught as DE. Is it possible that he is adopted, or Regulus? mother married again as you said? - Anastasia - It is also possible that she wasn't there when the photograph was - taken, but this would also indicate that several people might be - missing. Now I come to the point which interests me - what about - Flitwick? Was/Is he in the Order? - As far as we know, Flitwick is clever and can use his wand properly - (otherwise he wouldn't be Head of Ravenclaw). He's been teaching at - Hogwarts since at least the Marauders' time. He's definitely very - loyal to DD, although he is not as close to him as Minerva or Snape - are. - There isn't any canon telling us that there aren't more members in - the Order than those we already know about. - What do you think? Amey: Yes, it is possible, and the way Flitwick relates to McGonall and Snape, it seems he is a member of the order, though not an active one. Also, as for Dumbledore and McGonall?s teaching timeline, we know Dumbledore was Transfiguration teacher in Riddle?s time (50 years before). Assuming as many of us are, that Grindelwald episode came after that, I think he became HeadMaster or Deputy after that. Also Lupin doesn?t say exactly when he became HeadMaster. I think he became headmaster when McGonall joined as teacher (or vice-versa, actually). That will place it around 3-4 years before Lupin and company joined. Lupin is not wrong in saying that before Dumbledore became Headmaster, he had no chance. - Jim said: - "mask, in the MoM in the middle of the night. We'll have the testimony - of Harry, Ron, Hermione, Luna, Neville, Dumbledore, Tonks, and Lupin." - DuffyPoo now. - You forgot Mad-Eye Moody and Kinglsey Shacklebolt. Amey: That makes it a crazy boy, 3 underage kids, 1 daughter of Quibbler?s owner, a old person loosing his marbles, a new auror (though she is cool), a werewolf, an ex-auror who sees enemy in everyone and everything, and one auror. Hmmm . Only one *proper* witness ;D. Ok, jokes apart, I think only Tonks and Shacklebolt will count with Dumbledore actually. But still, Lucius is in trouble till he escapes from Azkaban. And as for his being MoM, I think he is more of a KingMaker than a King (Fudge?s son as HBP anybody???), and now he will find it hard to keep new MoM in his pocket. One more thought here, "But I've told you, I had no idea!" Bagman called earnestly over the crowd's babble, his round blue eyes widening. "None at all! Old Rookwood was a friend of my dad's . . . never crossed my mind he was in with You-Know-Who! I thought I was collecting information for our side! And Rookwood kept talking about getting me a job in the Ministry later on ... " (GoF) Where was he collecting information from? Or more precisely, from whom??? And when did he became so important and clever to gather information? What am I missing here? Amey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Thu Jul 29 14:27:37 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:27:37 -0400 Subject: The Titlings Message-ID: <005301c47578$34339ea0$bfc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 108084 chrisp said: "Goblet of Fire : a goblet that turns out to be a portkey and brought Harry to meet Voldemort, again." DuffyPoo now: It wasn't the Goblet of Fire that brought Harry to LV... 'twas the Triwizard Cup. The Goblet of Fire was the thing that the students who wanted to enter the Triwizard Tournament had to put their names in. It was shut back in its casket on October 31st after the fire went out...after the names were spewed out of it. chrisp said: "But wait, Sirius was introduced in the first book at the very first chapter and yet brought under the spotlight after the third book. If this is also a pattern, would that mean who ever this halfblood prince is, he was already mentioned in the third book and later brings to the attention in sixth? Would he be the replacement of Sirius after his death?" DuffyPoo now: So who do we have to deal with...new in the third book: Stan Shunpike - Knight bus conductor Ernie Prang - Knight bus driver Florean Fortescue - owner of the ice cream shop in Diagon Alley Remus Lupin - DADA professor Sibyll Trelawney - Divination professor Peter Pettigrew - traitor Madam Rosemerta - Landlady of the Three Broomsticks Cedric Diggory - Captain of the Hufflepuff team - dead now though Cho Chang - Ravenclaw seeker Roger Davies - Ravenclaw Captain Waldon Macnair - MoM executioner & DE Some old committee member with no name A boatload of Dementors No first years are listed by name because Harry & Hermione missed the sorting that year I can't think of any more off the top of my head If JKR truly means Prince as being male...that leaves out Trelawney, Chang and Madam Rosemerta. Of the lot that's left, Roger Davies and Remus Lupin? Lupin has already made a comeback in OotP. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From naama_gat at hotmail.com Thu Jul 29 14:37:08 2004 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:37:08 -0000 Subject: Fudge and Harry as Gryffindor's heir In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108085 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > Jen: But JKR is the one who made a person's bloodline important, if > only to overcome it in the end! She already tells us Riddle is the > last descendant (whatever) of Slytherin. He chose to believe in > Slyterin's "noble" work and take it to the extreme. Harry could also choose to be a Barty Crouch, Sr. and take his hate for the Dark >Arts and Voldemort to an extreme. But he hasn't and won't. > Well, it's not so much a person's bloodline, as an ideology of blood that has a very important place in the Potterverse. People, such as Riddle, who embrace this ideology, let their genealogy determine (or rather, excuse) their behavior. I think that JKR presents this as a false and dangerous ideology - when taken to its extreme it becomes the Pureblood-Mudlbood racism. That's not to say that people don't inherit various traits from their parents. However, as far as I can tell, what is inherited are abilities, not moral tendencies (which is why I tend to believe that Parseltongue is not evil in itself). Naama From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Thu Jul 29 14:42:43 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:42:43 -0000 Subject: R2, Flitwick, Lucius as next MoM In-Reply-To: <20040729142629.17779.qmail@webmail30.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108086 Amey:> > "But I've told you, I had no idea!" Bagman called earnestly over the crowd's babble, his round blue eyes widening. "None at all! Old Rookwood was a friend of my dad's . . . never crossed my mind he was in with You-Know-Who! I thought I was collecting information for our side! And Rookwood kept talking about getting me a job in the Ministry later on ... " (GoF) > > Where was he collecting information from? Or more precisely, from whom??? And when did he became so important and clever to gather information? What am I missing here? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Aggie: I'd assumed that he was gathering info from Rookwood, hence him bringing Rookwood's name into it but that can't be right can it? Bagman is passing the info ONTO Rookwood! D'oh! It is a very good question! WHY was he collecting information? And who was he collecting it for (other than Rookwood)? This is very bizarre! Another thought that you gave me was, if Bagman was cooperating with R'wood because of the promise of a job in the Ministry and Rookwood ended up in Azkaban, who gave Bagman the job? And why? At his trial, most people in the stands liked him because of his Quidditch abilities but those in power seemed to treat him with contempt. I'm sure I've missed something important but no doubt it'll get pointed out to me in due course!!! ;o)) From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Thu Jul 29 15:07:33 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:07:33 -0000 Subject: Fudge and Harry as Gryffindor's heir In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108087 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "boyd_smythe" wrote: > > Kneasy wrote : > > What Tom sees is part of himself, transferred along with the > powers. And Voldy!Tom is probably pure Slytherin fodder, even without > the possibility that there's some of the original Salazar in Voldy > too. < > > boyd: > > Then we're in agreement, Kneasy? Had not Lily's sacrifice embedded > parts of LV in baby Harry, he might be a mere squib? Let's see, he's a > strong wizard for his age, just like LV was, he uses the *same* wand > as LV, he's a parselmouth, and they even look a bit alike. Could it be > that Squib!Harry got *all* his powers from Voldie? > Kneasy: If you take it to extremes then yes, that's one possibility. Of course he may not be quite that bad - he might only be as rotten at magic as Neville and just the larger proportion of his magical powers derive from Voldy instead of all of them. But it's reasonable to surmise that the Voldy bits in Harry automatically chose/were suited to a wand as close to Voldy's original as it was possible to get. Which puts the graveyard scene into a different light - is it possible to AK *yourself*? Would the destruction of Voldy bits in one result in the death of Voldemort in the other? Novel form of suicide if you can do it. And a new potential final resolution - Harry's dying destroys Voldy. Cor! That'd upset some. Boyd: > Boy, if pure-blooded, arrogant James had known baby Harry to be a > squib, he might have been upset enough to...to...hand Harry over to > LV to save himself and Lily? See post #107977 (SHH) JAM TAKES BIBS for > a very subversive theory that could be sadly true. > Kneasy: You've been reading Fraser's "The Golden Bough" again. You really shouldn't; it only gets you excited. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Thu Jul 29 15:25:25 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:25:25 -0000 Subject: R2, Flitwick, Lucius as next MoM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108088 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aggiepaddy" wrote: > > > Aggie: > Another thought that you gave me was, if Bagman was cooperating with > R'wood because of the promise of a job in the Ministry and Rookwood > ended up in Azkaban, who gave Bagman the job? And why? At his > trial, most people in the stands liked him because of his Quidditch > abilities but those in power seemed to treat him with contempt. I'm > sure I've missed something important but no doubt it'll get pointed > out to me in due course!!! ;o)) Bagman is yet another one on my list. ("There are plenty more to come. The list is long. Dirac Angestun Gesept.") Bet he turns up again before it all finishes. For a list of questions raised by the activities of 'ole Baggy, see 73901, "FLOOZY 2: Bagman - a cause for concern." Kneasy From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Jul 29 15:34:56 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:34:56 -0000 Subject: WW vs RW was Re: Timelines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108089 > Tonya here: > Of course this could be my impression because I see the wizard world as a dream place to live in. Therefore it must not be as stressful as rush hour traffic, drive by shootings, wrong sides of town, and be careful who and what you say to people about yourself. < Alas, the WW has a wrong side of town (Knockturn Alley) drive-by shootings (Cedric Diggory) and be careful who and what you say to people about yourself (see Hagrid's and Sirius's descriptions of the first Voldemort war.) From the description of people flooing in and out of fireplaces at the MOM, it has rush hour traffic too--I wonder what happens when the floo network is overloaded? Pippin From mkeller01 at alltel.net Thu Jul 29 15:52:41 2004 From: mkeller01 at alltel.net (jksunflower2002) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:52:41 -0000 Subject: Amos for MoM? (was Re: "Alas", how about Umbridge as new MoM) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108090 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "antoshachekhonte" wrote: > Antosha: > So I was thinking about the various candidates suggested and they all fail on a couple of > levels--in the reality of the books, they're all either outside the MoM or too close to Fudge, > or too close to Dumbledore or too close to Lord Thingy... From the point of view of who > would make for the most interesting MoM for the books, I don't think someone who is > either totally pro-Harry or totally pro-LV would make for a very interesting addition to the > books... > > So how about the one competent member of the Ministry who is neither in Fudge's pocket, > nor in Lucius's, nor is particularly fond of Harry? > > I think Amos Diggory is going to be the next MoM. Yeah, I like this. I assumed we'd be hearing more of Amos after GoF. For a bit player, we have some interesting glimpses into his personality. All that jealousy over the attention Harry was receiving over Cedric. Why bother pointing all that all out if it wasn't going to come into play later? What lesson was learned or purpose served by it? Yes, I could see him still holding a grudge of some sort against Harry. Amos appears to be high enough up in the ministry for the position, and he has the sympathy angle. Amos Diggory as the next MoM sounds entire plausible to me. Toad From hypercolor99 at hotmail.com Thu Jul 29 15:55:20 2004 From: hypercolor99 at hotmail.com (alice_loves_cats) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:55:20 -0000 Subject: Regulus Black's son the HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108091 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "angellslin" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hedwigstalons" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eabarboza" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > What if Regulus was trying to get out because he had fallen in > love > > > with a Muggle. What if he had a son? His son would be a Half > Blood > > > and a "prince", not in the literal sense. He would be the Half > > > Blood Prince that would try to claim Sirius' inheritance! > > > > > > > > What do you guys think of my wild theory? > > > > > > -Erika > > > > Erika - > > I think this is a great theory! That would make Regulus' child > > potentially Harry's age or a bit older. (Unless Regulus never died, > > and then the child could be younger.) If the child is 15 or older, > > where has he been going to school? Will he transfer to Hogwarts? > > > > HedwigsTalons > > How about it turns to be Dean Thomas? In her edits, Jo told us that > Dean's father is a wizard (without the knowledge of Dean's mother) > and was killed by death eaters. Interesting enough is that this pcs > of information was cut from the Chamber of Secrets. > > - Angel Alice: But Dean Thomas is black (so probably not a Black). From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Thu Jul 29 16:17:55 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 29 Jul 2004 16:17:55 -0000 Subject: Original Order, Imperius and Inheritence and traits Message-ID: <20040729161755.18361.qmail@webmail9.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 108092 - Potioncat - My point is really that we know "some" of the Order members from - before and "some" of the Order members now. But we do not know if - either McGonagall (member now) or Flickwick were in the Order - earlier. And their not being in it would only mean they weren't in - it. Snape worked with DD against LV, but he wouldn't be considered - a member of the Order at that time. He is now. - Does that make sense? Amey: 'We've managed to convince a couple of people, though,' said Mr Weasley. Tonks here, for one - - Kingsley Shacklebolt's been a real asset, too; ' And 'You weren't in the Order then, you don't understand. Last time we were outnumbered twenty to one by the Death Eaters and they were picking us off one by one ' (OOtP) So, if either of the teachers were were recent additions, it would have been mentioned (I think). Weaslys were not a part of the Order back then, but they are now, we get a proper canon for that. Also, about Snape, he was a spy, he couldn?t be a (official) member then. As for Flitwick and McGonall, I think they were members but chose to remain in school for students (like they do in OOtP) - Pippin - Supposing you *can* put Imperius on an invisible person, - (remember eye contact is important ), you wouldn't know it had - taken. "...watch his eyes, that's where you see it-" GoF ch14. Amey: We don?t have any canon saying eye contact is necessary for Imperius, the quote you mention is Moody telling the class to look at the determination (?) in Harry?s eyes when he is fighting the curse. And if eye contact was important, how would Crouch Jr put Imperius on Krum in the Maze and make him put Crucio on Cedric? - Naama - That's not to say that people don't inherit various traits from their - parents. However, as far as I can tell, what is inherited are - abilities, not moral tendencies (which is why I tend to believe that - Parseltongue is not evil in itself). Amey: Thanks to you and Kneasy too for making my point more clear (in fact clearer than I could make). Yes, this was exactly my point. Of course, people inherit some traits, and they develop some. Also some people have inborn abilities (like magic in all children going to Hogwarts), some get some abilities after working hard for them. What we make of these traits and abilities is what counts, more than actually having them. Harry uses parseltongue to save others from snake in dueling club, Voldemort uses it to use basilisk to attack others, and control nagini and use her for his purposes. (Slytherin had that *gift*, so I think he was born with it, *maybe* Harry wasn?t). Harry uses his bravery and resourcefulness to get to the stone in order to save it, go to Chamber to save Ginny in all to save people other than him. Voldemort uses his cleverness and resourcefulness to control people and get them do his work and gain power from that. Harry also uses his determination to fight for justice. His disregard for rules is basically because he cares for others more than himself. (And he shares many of these traits with his father, though he is somewhat more mature). These are qualities Slytherin prized in his *hand-picked* students, still Harry is in Gryffindor. Because there is a line between Slytherin and Gryffindor. * We Slytherins are brave, yes, but not stupid. - Phineas Nigellus* That is the difference between consciously choosing to work selfishly and selflessly, to work for one particular man as opposed to for justice and mankind . It is the difference between cherishing an ideology which makes a man inferior because of his birth and an ideology which keeps his abilities above his bloodline. That is why Dumbledore is called Champion of Mudbloods by some, and The Most Powerful Wizard by some. Amey, who thinks he has succeeded in confusing people even more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com Thu Jul 29 16:17:57 2004 From: sherlockholme_ac at rediffmail.com (Amey Chinchorkar) Date: 29 Jul 2004 16:17:57 -0000 Subject: Original Order, Imperius and Inheritence and traits Message-ID: <20040729161757.29746.qmail@webmail31.rediffmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 108093 - Potioncat - My point is really that we know "some" of the Order members from - before and "some" of the Order members now. But we do not know if - either McGonagall (member now) or Flickwick were in the Order - earlier. And their not being in it would only mean they weren't in - it. Snape worked with DD against LV, but he wouldn't be considered - a member of the Order at that time. He is now. - Does that make sense? Amey: 'We've managed to convince a couple of people, though,' said Mr Weasley. Tonks here, for one - - Kingsley Shacklebolt's been a real asset, too; ' And 'You weren't in the Order then, you don't understand. Last time we were outnumbered twenty to one by the Death Eaters and they were picking us off one by one ' (OOtP) So, if either of the teachers were were recent additions, it would have been mentioned (I think). Weaslys were not a part of the Order back then, but they are now, we get a proper canon for that. Also, about Snape, he was a spy, he couldn?t be a (official) member then. As for Flitwick and McGonall, I think they were members but chose to remain in school for students (like they do in OOtP) - Pippin - Supposing you *can* put Imperius on an invisible person, - (remember eye contact is important ), you wouldn't know it had - taken. "...watch his eyes, that's where you see it-" GoF ch14. Amey: We don?t have any canon saying eye contact is necessary for Imperius, the quote you mention is Moody telling the class to look at the determination (?) in Harry?s eyes when he is fighting the curse. And if eye contact was important, how would Crouch Jr put Imperius on Krum in the Maze and make him put Crucio on Cedric? - Naama - That's not to say that people don't inherit various traits from their - parents. However, as far as I can tell, what is inherited are - abilities, not moral tendencies (which is why I tend to believe that - Parseltongue is not evil in itself). Amey: Thanks to you and Kneasy too for making my point more clear (in fact clearer than I could make). Yes, this was exactly my point. Of course, people inherit some traits, and they develop some. Also some people have inborn abilities (like magic in all children going to Hogwarts), some get some abilities after working hard for them. What we make of these traits and abilities is what counts, more than actually having them. Harry uses parseltongue to save others from snake in dueling club, Voldemort uses it to use basilisk to attack others, and control nagini and use her for his purposes. (Slytherin had that *gift*, so I think he was born with it, *maybe* Harry wasn?t). Harry uses his bravery and resourcefulness to get to the stone in order to save it, go to Chamber to save Ginny in all to save people other than him. Voldemort uses his cleverness and resourcefulness to control people and get them do his work and gain power from that. Harry also uses his determination to fight for justice. His disregard for rules is basically because he cares for others more than himself. (And he shares many of these traits with his father, though he is somewhat more mature). These are qualities Slytherin prized in his *hand-picked* students, still Harry is in Gryffindor. Because there is a line between Slytherin and Gryffindor. * We Slytherins are brave, yes, but not stupid. - Phineas Nigellus* That is the difference between consciously choosing to work selfishly and selflessly, to work for one particular man as opposed to for justice and mankind . It is the difference between cherishing an ideology which makes a man inferior because of his birth and an ideology which keeps his abilities above his bloodline. That is why Dumbledore is called Champion of Mudbloods by some, and The Most Powerful Wizard by some. Amey, who thinks he has succeeded in confusing people even more [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Jul 29 16:28:44 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:28:44 -0000 Subject: Fudge and Harry as Gryffindor's heir In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108094 Naama: > Well, it's not so much a person's bloodline, as an ideology of blood > that has a very important place in the Potterverse. People, such as > Riddle, who embrace this ideology, let their genealogy determine (or > rather, excuse) their behavior. I think that JKR presents this as a > false and dangerous ideology - when taken to its extreme it becomes > the Pureblood-Mudlbood racism. Jen: I think you're right, that *is* the main significance of blood so far. It's just the Half-Blood Prince title has me wondering. All of JKR's titles are literal so far, and unless this title is mysterious and means nothing like what it sounds, then she's introducing lineage again, like Riddle descending from Slytherin. We are going to literally meet or be re-introduced to a half-blood prince or a prince of half-bloods (or both). And if the title doesn't refer to Tom Riddle, which we know now it doesn't, then it could be referring to the lineage of one of the "good" guys....it just makes me start wondering about all the blood stuff again, trying to see it in a different way, more from a gray perspective than a black/white one. Speculating on the idea that knowing your origin doesn't have to be a bad thing, in the sense that Voldemort and the Blacks use it, for superiority and blood purity. That a person can also overcome a perceived "good" origin to be other than who their family wished them to be. Someone who was supposed to be a prince and gave up their status to be a commoner, or something of the like (sorry, not up on royalty phrases!). Jen, just speculating a little.... :) From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Jul 29 16:32:00 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:32:00 -0000 Subject: Snape's part in death of Sirius - Revised Time In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108095 > Asian_lovr2: > > Here I take acception to this secondary point. Umbridge's office is just as restricted as all the other fireplaces in Hogwarts. The difference is that the Floo Regulation Department is not monitoring her private office fireplace. Floo Regulation is not monitoring but Hogwarts is still restricting. > > The overal series implies strongly and repeatedly that Hogwarts is protected from entrance and exit by magical means. Dumbledore is the exception, since he is Headmaster, he controls the protections and the exceptions. > Pippin: Now this is interesting. How *did* the Death Eaters think Harry was going to get to the Ministry? Not by thestral, surely. And when? Harry could have arrived much sooner if he'd gone through the Honeyduke's passage, broken into a house in Hogsmeade, and flooed to the Ministry. Wormtail knows all about the One Eyed witch. If I was the DE's that's what I'd expect. Much faster than brooms, and Harry wouldn't have to wait till nightfall to avoid being seen. Thestrals? Who knew? You see what I'm saying? Even if Snape had notified the Order in his first message, the DE's would have been at the ministry first. Whatever the cause, however long it was, Snape's delay *saved* lives. The Order was fighting a losing battle before Dumbledore got there--if they'd engaged the DE's sooner, they'd *all* have died. The DE's would likely have spotted the Order before the Order found them, but whether they engaged the Order at once or waited for Harry's arrival, Order members would have died. The only chance would have been to intercept Harry before he reached the Ministry--but there was little chance of Snape doing that,no matter how Harry chose to leave. Snape knows or suspects where the entrance to the Witch passage is, but he doesn't know where it leads or how to get into it. As for the Forest, the centaurs are armed with bows--they certainly wouldn't make it easy for Snape to circle over the woods on a broomstick hunting for Potter, day or night. Of course, if Snape is a vampire, that would explain why he only *intended* to search the forest. He had to wait till it got dark enough . Pippin From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Thu Jul 29 16:43:07 2004 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:43:07 -0000 Subject: R2, Flitwick, Lucius as next MoM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108096 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aggiepaddy" wrote: > > > > > > Aggie: > > Another thought that you gave me was, if Bagman was cooperating with > > R'wood because of the promise of a job in the Ministry and Rookwood > > ended up in Azkaban, who gave Bagman the job? And why? At his > > trial, most people in the stands liked him because of his Quidditch > > abilities but those in power seemed to treat him with contempt. I'm > > sure I've missed something important but no doubt it'll get pointed > > out to me in due course!!! ;o)) > > > Bagman is yet another one on my list. > ("There are plenty more to come. > The list is long. > Dirac Angestun Gesept.") > Bet he turns up again before it all finishes. > For a list of questions raised by the activities of 'ole Baggy, see 73901, > "FLOOZY 2: Bagman - a cause for concern." > > Kneasy Carolyn: Astonishingly, my major contribution to this topic appears to have been overlooked: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/94119 How can this have happened? Carolyn From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Jul 29 17:00:18 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 17:00:18 -0000 Subject: Original Order, Imperius and Inheritence and traits In-Reply-To: <20040729161755.18361.qmail@webmail9.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108097 > Amey: > Thanks to you and Kneasy too for making my point more clear (in fact clearer than I could make). Yes, this was exactly my point. Of course, people inherit some traits, and they develop some. Also some people have inborn abilities (like magic in all children going to Hogwarts), some get some abilities after working hard for them. What we make of these traits and abilities is what counts, more than actually having them. It is the difference between cherishing an ideology which makes a man inferior because of his birth and an ideology which keeps his abilities above his bloodline. That is why Dumbledore is called Champion of Mudbloods by some, and The Most Powerful Wizard by some. > > Amey, who thinks he has succeeded in confusing people even more Jen: No, it's not confusing, actually very eloquent. And JKR is defintely giving us that message and it won't change in Books 6 & 7. The part I keep wondering about is whether JKR isn't also sending message about origins being important to understand who you really are. Harry was certainly hurt by 11 years of not knowing he was a wizard, thinking his parents died in a car crash. Even though I personally believe Dumbledore made the best choices he could in a bad circumstance, those years were painful for Harry and were "false years" in a way. And perhaps Dumbledore intended that Harry know more about his past before he did, but the Dursleys chose to keep Harry in the dark. Whichever one, Dumbledore felt it was crucially important for Harry to know the Truth when the time was right. And what Riddle doesn't know about his origins would probably fill a book. He's made a life for himself based on half-truths, speculation, etc., it seems to me. Perhaps if he had known more he would have made different choices? I don't know, but JKR did say he wasn't born evil. And then there's all the stuff Harry *doesn't* know about which continues to haunt him--who was James, really? Why does he have no other relatives? Would he have done better in Sytherin? There's so much he doesn't know about himself and his & his parent's past yet, but it continues to shape his actions & fuel his fears in the present. I definitely don't disagree with or misunderstand what you're saying Amey, I do think blood in and of itself means nothing and JKR fully intends to get that message across in HP. Jen Reese From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Jul 29 17:02:32 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 17:02:32 -0000 Subject: Imperius In-Reply-To: <20040729161755.18361.qmail@webmail9.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108098 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amey Chinchorkar" wrote: > - Pippin > - Supposing you *can* put Imperius on an invisible person, > - (remember eye contact is important ), you wouldn't know it had - taken. "...watch his eyes, that's where you see it-" GoF ch14. > > Amey: > We don't have any canon saying eye contact is necessary for Imperius, the quote you mention is Moody telling the class to look at the determination (?) in Harry's eyes when he is fighting the curse. And if eye contact was important, how would Crouch Jr put Imperius on Krum in the Maze and make him put Crucio on Cedric?< Pippin: We have Hermione saying eye contact is essential for jinxes in Book One. There are some charms that work without eye contact, such as Accio, but they seem to be the exception. Harry tosses Impedimenta over his shoulder and hears a yelp as he escapes from the graveyard, but we don't know whether the curse connected with its target or somebody got burned by a miss. Fake!Moody has his magical eye "..I was patrolling around [the maze], able to see through the outer hedges, able to curse many obstacles out of your way. I Stunned Fleur Delacour as she passed. I put the Imperius curse on Krum so that he would finish Diggory." It wouldn't matter whether the curse-user is supposed to look for the presence or absence of determination....without seeing the victims eyes, you wouldn't know whether he was resisting. If he was, he could pretend to obey, and then double cross you. Podmore, for example, could have arranged to hand over a fake prophecy orb in order to ambush the DE's who were supposed to receive it--a classic sting. Pippin From tzakis1225 at netzero.com Thu Jul 29 17:43:10 2004 From: tzakis1225 at netzero.com (demetra1225) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 17:43:10 -0000 Subject: Snape's part in death of Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108099 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > Pippin, I'm really surprised you are not familiar with this useful > spell: > ----------------------------------------------- > GoF, Ch. 35 : > Dumbledore forced the man's mouth open and poured three drops inside > it. Then he pointed his wand at the mans chest and said, "Ennervate." > Crouch's son opened his eyes > ------------------------------------------------ > So simple and quick. And Crouch Jr. was hit with "Stupefy", which is > the same that Ron used on several of the I-Squad. And when DD does > this spell, Snape is standing right beside him. Can you see our dear > Severus failing to master it? (even if he has to train on poor > Filch). In fact, the DEs must know that one too, because they recover > so quickly after getting hit at the DoM battle. And Snape was a DE > too. > Demetra: Not to be nitpicky on this small point, but while 'ennervate' may work on 'stupefy' we don't know that it works on other hexes. I don't have my book with me, but I know that Ron mentions that Ginny hit Malfoy with her specialty, the bat-bogey hex. For all we know, other hexes were used as well. We also saw McGonnagall getting hit earlier in the book with multiple 'stupefies'. She wasn't revived with a simple 'ennervate', she ended up in St. Mungos for a period of time. Maybe multiple hexes have a cumulative effect? We don't know whether the I-Squad kids were hit with only one 'stupefy' or more. I don't think we have enough info to say that reviving the I-Squad kids was simple or quick. From dk59us at yahoo.com Thu Jul 29 17:56:55 2004 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 17:56:55 -0000 Subject: Original Order, Imperius and Inheritence and traits In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108100 Jen wrote: > The part I keep wondering about is whether JKR isn't also sending > message about origins being important to understand who you really > are. Harry was certainly hurt by 11 years of not knowing he was a > wizard, thinking his parents died in a car crash. > > And what Riddle doesn't know about his origins would probably fill a > book. He's made a life for himself based on half-truths, > speculation, etc., it seems to me. Perhaps if he had known more he > would have made different choices? I don't know, but JKR did say he > wasn't born evil. > > And then there's all the stuff Harry *doesn't* know about which > continues to haunt him--who was James, really? Why does he have no > other relatives? Would he have done better in Slytherin? There's so > much he doesn't know about himself and his & his parent's past yet, > but it continues to shape his actions & fuel his fears in the > present. > Eustace_Scrubb: And that's an eloquent point that you've made, as well, Jen. As Amey said, blood (genealogy) in and of itself means little. But as you add, that doesn't mean that _history_ means little. Many of the problems the WW has are a result of the failure to record and disseminate knowledge of its history. Just as Harry (and Tom Riddle, also) know little of their own heritage, the Wizarding World as a whole tends to ignore its history, particularly anything unpleasant. Whatever we may think of the curriculum at Hogwarts, it's clear that the history taught there is boring and nearly useless. I doubt that Binns was much better at teaching it when he was alive, but I think the lack of value placed on the subject is pretty clear--not only did Binns just continue on his merry way not noticing that he'd become a ghost, the Headmaster (whoever it was at the time) didn't bother to fill the position with a living professor. In the WW as a whole, the tendency is to ignore conflict (treatment of house elves, relations with centaurs) and to create false symbols of magical unity (the statue in the lobby of the MoM), avoid discussion of potential problems (the fact that Voldemort's demise was far from certain after Godric's Hollow) and to forget the past rather than try to learn from it. So Harry is quite representative of the Wizarding World as a whole in his lack of knowledge of his past and his failure to ask important questions. The latter is a pet peeve of many readers and has sometimes been seen as a convenient if sloppy authorial tool to keep the reader in suspense. Maybe it's much more than that. Maybe it's a critical part of the overall story...and just maybe Harry will have to overcome this to prevail in the end. Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Thu Jul 29 18:04:04 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:04:04 -0400 Subject: Malfoy as MoM Message-ID: <001f01c47596$6f7b6b00$59c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 108101 Lissa said: "How many of those people's testimony will be accepted though? In PoA, Dumbledore says that Sirius will not be cleared because of the word of three thirteen year old wizards and a werewolf. The Trio's aged a bit, but they're still kids. I think that eliminates ALL the kids (especially since the fact that all of them but Luna have Issues with the Malfoys is very well known, just by their behavior with Draco at school). Lupin's still a werewolf, so his testimony's pretty much out. Fudge and his cohorts aren't listening to Dumbledore- and if anyone believes he's after power, they won't listen either. Mad-Eye Moody WAS respected, but people don't quite believe him these days. Tonks and Shacklebolt, on the other hand... I can't come up with a good argument there." DuffyPoo: PoA is a different situation. It's two kid's word against Snape's. Lupin isn't available for testimony even if he wasn't a werewolf, and mistrusted. Sirius' testimony isn't valid because he hasn't behaved like an innocent man. There was also the street full of eye-witnesses to the blowing up of Pettigrew, and DD gave testimony that Black was the Potter's secret keeper. DD has no power to sway the MoM. Why does DD remind the kids that Lupin's word won't be accepted because he and Sirius were friends, yet he fully expects Snape's word to be accepted when it's pretty common knowledge that Snape hated both Lupin and Black not to mention Harry and James? In OotP the six kids have all been injured. How is that to be explained? I think all the kids, with the exeption of Ron, early on, are now credible. Because the situation has changed. Fudge, and other wizards who appeared in the Atrium, know LV is back. They may not recognize Bella, but, 'He was there!' shouted a scarlet-robed man with a ponytail...'I saw him, Mr Fudge, I swear it was You-Know-Who, he grabbed a woman and Disapparated!' 'I know, Williamson, I know, I saw him too!' gibbered Fudge. While Harry was discredited for most of the 4th and 5th years - through the Daily Prophet - by the end of fifth year he is again 'the boy who lived' and the DP reprinted the article from the Quibbler. He is believed again. He's believed because they have the proof,: the word of not only the other five kids, but Tonks, Kingsley, DD, Lupin, Mad-Eye, Fudge, Williamson, and Dawlish. Just to name a few. Some of them may think think Mad-Eye's paranoid but I'm sure not everyone in the ministry is of the same opinion. Besides, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean someone isn't after you - as was proven in GoF...Moody was imprisoned in his own trunk for nine months...enough to make anyone paranoid and drink out of their own hip flask. DD's word is accepted again, so we have his testimony. While Lupin may be distrusted by some Wizards who know he is a werewolf, it is quite likely not every person in the WW or Ministry knows he is, and just as likely that some would trust his report anyway. Even if you discredit Lupin, Moody and the six kids, there is still the testimony of DD, Tonks, Kingsley, Fudge, Williamson and Dawlish. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Thu Jul 29 18:07:19 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:07:19 -0400 Subject: Lucius as next MoM (was R2, Flitwick, Lucius as next MoM) Message-ID: <002801c47596$e4210550$59c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 108102 Amey said: "But still, Lucius is in trouble till he escapes from Azkaban" DuffyPoo now: Won't he still be in trouble as an excaped convict? Sirius Black was was hunted every day. The 10 Death Eaters were also, but only by Ministry members not Dementoids. I think Slippery LM is going to have a hard time snaking his way into the MoM job. The position appears to be elected, and while LM has lots of friends, a good chunk of them are locked up in Azkaban with him. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Thu Jul 29 09:03:01 2004 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 02:03:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Amos for MoM? (was Re: "Alas", how about Umbridge as new MoM) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040729090301.38387.qmail@web50106.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 108103 --- antoshachekhonte wrote: > Antosha: > I think Amos Diggory is going to be the next MoM. Personally, I don't think the next MoM will be anyone that Harry knows personally. How many teenagers know many senior government bureaucrats? It's also an ideal way - like the annual DADA teacher - for JKR to introduce new adult characters that carry the plot of the book and the series forward. Having said that, if the next MoM IS someone Harry has already met, then Amos Diggory would be a good choice. I believe that in Book 6 the wizarding world - having been in denial about Voldemort for so long - will do a 180-turn-around and demand that a strong leader take charge (this might not mean replacing Fudge; it might just mean putting someone tough in charge of Law Enforcement; after Crouch Sr. was NOT the MoM in his time). Then Harry would have to learn that there are ways of defeating an enemy that don't involve surrendering your own humanity and honour. Magda _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com From stephenflynn001 at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 29 10:32:07 2004 From: stephenflynn001 at yahoo.co.uk (stephenflynn001) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:32:07 -0000 Subject: Snapes Attitude towards the Students Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108104 Hi all, Does anybody know if Snape has every been disciplined for the actions and behaviour towards not just Harry but all the students outside of Slytherin. It seems ridiculous that a person with his temperment and obvious chip on his shoulder should be responsible for childrens development. SF From eabarboza at yahoo.com Thu Jul 29 15:41:53 2004 From: eabarboza at yahoo.com (eabarboza) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:41:53 -0000 Subject: Regulus Black's son the HBP or ..... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108105 > Beth now: > While the inheritance angle is interesting I couldn't help thinking > that a lot of what is said about Regulus could apply to Severus as > well. JKR said that there was more information about the teacher's > families, maybe the HBP is Snape's son. Could one of these men's sons > be the often theorized "good slytherin"? > I am glad that other people find this theory interesting. Beth, how would Sirius' death bring Snape's son into the story? Snape is not related to the Black Family and even if he was it is a very distant relationship. His son wouldn't be in line for the inheritance. The basis for this theory is to explain Sirius' death in some way. I think the HBP is connected to this is some way, and the this new character will make a profound difference in Harry's fight against Voldemort. -Erika From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Thu Jul 29 17:20:46 2004 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:20:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fudge and Harry as Gryffindor's heir - In praise of Neville In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040729172046.18324.qmail@web50107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 108106 Kneasy: > Neville is really a Huff. Not really good at anything. Not at all. Huffs are the ultimate team players and all-for-one-one-for-all types. They're the service-club-joiners, the Kiwanis-Club-leaders, the civic-munipal-politician types. The group is everything. Neville's a loner - off on his own and popping up on our radar screen only occasionally. But whenever he shows up in OOTP, he surprises us with how much he's grown and developed. And even without his own support network, he was capable of both physical courage (know anyone else in the series who's taken on Goyle and Crabbe singlehandedly?) and moral bravery (standing up to the Trio when they were about the leave the Tower in PS/SS). Neville had more guts in his first year than Remus Lupin had in his fifth with the authority of prefect to boot. I really wonder how Snape felt as he sat at the Leaving Feast in PS/SS and watched his House being stripped of its victory - not because of the Trio (whose extra points simply tied Gryffindor and Slytherin) - but because of Neville's extra points for the special courage to stand up to his friends when he thought they were doing something wrong. I think he thought (with very mixed feelings): "Dumbledore, you old b******d. You know I can't really protest this." We skip over this point but the fact is: Gryffindor won that year because of Neville. Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From katiebug1233 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 29 09:27:20 2004 From: katiebug1233 at yahoo.com (Kate) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:27:20 -0000 Subject: Lily and magic outside school In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108107 I have a feeling The-Boy-Who-Lived is watched quite a bit closer than a regular Hogwarts student. Also, the Weasley kids are in a household that uses magic on a daily basis and may be able to fly below the radar a little more easily. -katie From meltowne at yahoo.com Thu Jul 29 18:38:55 2004 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 18:38:55 -0000 Subject: Lily and magic outside school In-Reply-To: <004f01c47577$ee84dfe0$bfc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108108 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cathy Drolet" wrote: > DuffyPoo now: I've always considered that stuff to be 'potiony' type things. Stuff they could do with a Muggle chemistry set, kind of. While I think the MoM may be able to stop underage wizards using wands to create magic, I think they would have a harder time detecting mixing up of concotions to create, say, ton-tongue toffees. 'We spent six months developing those!' Fred shouted at his mother, as she threw the toffees away. Most of that six months was time at Hogwarts, anyway. They also said, 'we've been looking for someone to test them on all summer...' They could have been finished just before school let out for the summer, and no one in the Weasley family would be stupid enough to eat them, as a tester. Also, Ginny said 'We've been hearing explosions out of their room for ages, but we never thought they were actually making things, we thought they just liked the noise.' We also know that F&G know a lot about Muggle tricks, like using a hairpin to pick locks...stuff that most wizards think is a waste of time to know. F&G thought 'they're skills worth learning, even if they are a bit slow.' After all, they spend 10 months at school and two at home (approximately). I think most of the stuff was developed at school They're planning on starting a joke shop, they don't want to get caught by the ministry and be expelled/have their wands snapped. They're obviously both quite intelligent kids to come up with this stuff. Even Hermione is impressed by the Headless Hats when before that she said 'Oh, they only know flashy stuff that's of no real use to anyone.' I suspect that for the most part the restrictions on underage sorcery are mostly applied to muggle-born students. When Dobby uses magic at the Dursley's the ministry thinks it's Harry. When he casts the Patronus they know i's him because there are no other wizards in the area. This suggests that even when they are watching a particular wizard, they don't know who cast what. Many of the Wizard children come from Wizarding families, and magic may be cast in their homes on a regular basis. It's probably up to the parents to keep an eye on those kids. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 29 19:01:07 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 19:01:07 -0000 Subject: What Kreacher knew, was RE: Sirius's part In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108109 Pippin before: > > > You left out 3) underestimating Kreacher. < < < SSSusan: > > Yikes--I certainly did! < < Pippin, also before: > > > with the last of the Blacks dead, Kreacher could leave the house, thus escaping further questioning. What did he know? Something about the Malfoys? Or something about someone *in* the house < < < SSSusan: > > Hee!! Look at you, Pippin--you didn't even use this perfect opening to openly revisit your position that it was ESE!Lupin "pulling the trigger" on Sirius! :-) What is it that you suspect Kreacher knows that hasn't come out yet? Pippin next time 'round: > I didn't want to drag the discussion into ESE!Lupin territory, > because that would inevitably divert the discussion from what > Kreacher knew to Lupin's character. > > So, back to Kreacher... > > The Malfoys have had experience with two treacherous House > Elves now--unlike Sirius, they aren't likely to be indifferent to > the danger that even some fact thought too trivial to conceal > could betray them. Narcissa is Bellatrix's sister and may have > shared this information with her. > > Further, Dumbledore's arrival tips the scales in favor of Harry's > survival, and that means Kreacher's conversation with Harry will > be discovered, if it hasn't been already. We don't know exactly > how Kreacher was communicating with the Malfoys--but he had > to have some way of knowing when it was time to injure > Buckbeak and to signal that he'd delivered his message to > Harry. The DE's might not want their secret, secure means of > communication discovered. > > Then there is the evidence of another spy. The last we heard > Hermione thought Lucius had guessed Sturgis Podmore was > on guard and Imperius'd him while he (Sturgis) was standing > invisibly in front of the door to the DoM. Not up to her usual > standard, that. > > Supposing you *can* put Imperius on an invisible person, > (remember eye contact is important ), you wouldn't know it had > taken. "...watch his eyes, that's where you see it-" GoF ch14. > > Lucius would want to be sure...pretending to be under Imperius > would be an excellent way to set up a sting. > > Kreacher might not have the same clues that we have, as we > don't have the same clues that Hermione has that Lupin is a > werewolf. But the Elf might have noticed something. SSSusan again: Any of you out there ever have those days when you just feel DENSE? Where you feel like you need everything spelled out in detail? ANYBODY??? Well, I guess I need to ask some further questions of clarification: 1) Are you suggesting that it's Sturgis P. who might've been the one Kreacher has info on, that Sturgis was spying for Voldy? 2) Are you suggesting it might be Lupin even though you're not going to go into the details of that possibility again just yet? 3) Or are you merely suggesting that Kreacher could be dangerous just *because* the trail to Lucius & Narcissa could be made if Kreacher is found? Siriusly Snapey Susan, fully aware that there might be more than one "yes" response within these three questions, and that there might also be a "Boy, you ARE dense, aren't you?" one as well. From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jul 29 19:01:11 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 19:01:11 -0000 Subject: Snapes Attitude towards the Students In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108110 wrote: > Hi all, > > Does anybody know if Snape has every been disciplined for the actions > and behaviour towards not just Harry but all the students outside of > Slytherin. It seems ridiculous that a person with his temperment and > obvious chip on his shoulder should be responsible for childrens > development. > Potioncat: Yes, it's in OoP when Umbridge is interviewing him about his experience at Hogwarts. Every year he submits his resignation but DD refuses to accept it until he teaches for one full year without abuses. Of course he blows that chance with the first Gryffindor class. Sorry...off to Kitchen Detention. From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Thu Jul 29 19:02:40 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:02:40 -0400 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy Message-ID: <001001c4759e$9fc9edb0$38c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 108111 Amy: "I too like this theory and think if this did happen it would not neccessarily be detrimental to the Harry fans: myself being one. I think we would still be left with a prophecy gone askew...LV got it wrong, but still managed to mark Harry as his equal and transfers some of his powers to Harry...." DuffyPoo now: It wouldn't change my opinion of Harry one bit. He'd still be the Harry we know and love: brave, loyal, courageous, a bit dim at times. And can you just imagine the next time Granny Longbottom has tea with old Griselda Marchbanks! "Our Neville....vanquished You-Know Who!" "Yes, I've heard," replied Madam Marchbanks. "You know, Grisie, they always said it would be that Potter boy, but I knew. I knew our Neville would be great some day. He takes afer his dad. We're so proud!" And Neville could take up the post of Herbology Professor when Sprout leaves, or better still, Defence Against the Dark Arts right under Snape's nose! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 29 19:11:01 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 19:11:01 -0000 Subject: How 'bout that Bagman? (was: R2, Flitwick, Lucius as next MoM) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108112 Aggie: > > Another thought that you gave me was, if Bagman was cooperating > > with R'wood because of the promise of a job in the Ministry and > > Rookwood ended up in Azkaban, who gave Bagman the job? And why? > > At his trial, most people in the stands liked him because of his > > Quidditch abilities but those in power seemed to treat him with > > contempt. I'm sure I've missed something important but no doubt > > it'll get pointed out to me in due course!!! ;o)) Kneasy: > Bagman is yet another one on my list. > ("There are plenty more to come. > The list is long. > Dirac Angestun Gesept.") > Bet he turns up again before it all finishes. > For a list of questions raised by the activities of 'ole Baggy, see > 73901,"FLOOZY 2: Bagman - a cause for concern." SSSusan: And this is why I, back when we were recently talking about the possibility of ESE!Fudge, included Lucius and BAGMAN as examples of two people whose behaviors are difficult to predict [107593]. I maintain that all we really know about Bagman is that he was a Quidditch star, that he squeaked out of a term in Azkaban by pleading "I didn't know!" and that he has a gambling problem. I don't think we know diddly-squat about his motivations concerning anything, and hence, he deserves to be watched. Siriusly Snaepy Susan From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 29 19:26:43 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 19:26:43 -0000 Subject: Snape questions for JK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108113 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "laura" wrote: > Thanks everyone who posted for your advice on what to ask JKR, I > really needed it! > > Well, I've made a *huge* list of Snape-related questions I'd love to > know the answers to (filled both sides of 2 A4 pages), spent hours > trawling through previous posts here, and of course, the books > themselves. I've put all the questions into categories of 'most > yearning to know' and 'most likely to be answered', crossed them off > one by one, and <> I'm down to the last four. They're not > worded perfectly but I'm allowing for the fact that I'll probably get > tongue-tied anyway, and I want to get straight to the point. So here > goes, in no real order: > > 1) Can you give us any indication as to how Snape finds out what > Voldemort is saying to his Deatheaters? > > 2) Why DOES Snape call Voldemort 'the Dark Lord'? > > 3) Can you tell us anything about Snape's family, for example, if > they're 'pure-bloods' or if he's related to any of the characters > we've met so far? > > And the killer question..... > > 4) Is there any truth in the rumours that Snape loved Lily? > > Questions 1 & 2 I decided on after reading 'Seen and Unforeseen' in > OOTP. I remember jumping for joy when Harry asked Snape question 2, > then being very ddisappointed when Trelawney distracted Snape from > answering - if only I knew what he was about to say! And I've been > dying to know the answer to no.1 since GOF. > > However, 3 & 4 are my favourites, and are the ones I'm most likely to > ask her. I can see JK giving hints to either of these that would > start a whole new wave of theories (if we're lucky). I really want > her to settle the Snape/Lily speculation, or at least add fuel to it > anyway! I'm thinking of rephrasing it to include Lupin after David > Heyman's speculation that Lupin loved Lily 'in many ways' - JK's > spoken about this with him I'm sure. > > So there you have it, none of these questions are final so > suggestions would be very welcome. I just hope to god I don't get > tongue-tied at the crucial moment! > > Laura* Carol: But 4 is a yes/no question and won't provide us with much info even if she does answer it. I'd much rather know why Voldemort trusts (or mistrusts) Snape. (I know she won't tell us why Dumbledore does!) If you do ask number 4, can you word it in such a way that it can't be answered in just one word? Again, a "why" or a "how" will probably lead to more info than an "is" or a "does." Thanks, Carol From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 29 19:30:22 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 19:30:22 -0000 Subject: Original Order, Imperius and Inheritence and traits In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108114 Jen wrote: > > > > The part I keep wondering about is whether JKR isn't also sending > > message about origins being important to understand who you > > really are. Harry was certainly hurt by 11 years of not knowing > > he was a wizard, thinking his parents died in a car crash. > > > And what Riddle doesn't know about his origins would probably fill > > a book. He's made a life for himself based on half-truths, > > speculation, etc., it seems to me. Perhaps if he had known more > > he would have made different choices? I don't know, but JKR did > > say he wasn't born evil. > > > > And then there's all the stuff Harry *doesn't* know about which > > continues to haunt him--who was James, really? Why does he have > > no other relatives? Would he have done better in Slytherin? > > There's so much he doesn't know about himself and his & his > > parent's past yet, but it continues to shape his actions & fuel > > his fears in the present. Eustace_Scrubb: > As Amey said, blood (genealogy) in and of itself means little. But > as you add, that doesn't mean that _history_ means little. Many of > the problems the WW has are a result of the failure to record and > disseminate knowledge of its history. Just as Harry (and Tom > Riddle, also) know little of their own heritage, the Wizarding > World as a whole tends to ignore its history, particularly anything > unpleasant. Whatever we may think of the curriculum at Hogwarts, > it's clear that the history taught there is boring and nearly > useless. I doubt that Binns was much better at teaching it when he > was alive, but I think the lack of value placed on the subject is > pretty clear--not only did Binns just continue on his merry way > not noticing that he'd become a ghost, the Headmaster (whoever it > was at the time) didn't bother to fill the position with a living > professor. > > In the WW as a whole, the tendency is to ignore conflict (treatment > of house elves, relations with centaurs) and to create false > symbols of magical unity (the statue in the lobby of the MoM), > avoid discussion of potential problems (the fact that Voldemort's > demise was far from certain after Godric's Hollow) and to forget > the past rather than try to learn from it. > > So Harry is quite representative of the Wizarding World as a whole > in his lack of knowledge of his past and his failure to ask > important questions. The latter is a pet peeve of many readers and > has sometimes been seen as a convenient if sloppy authorial tool to > keep the reader in suspense. Maybe it's much more than that. > Maybe it's a critical part of the overall story...and just maybe > Harry will have to overcome this to prevail in the end. SSSusan: Wonder why I'm suddenly thinking of the infamous, oft-attributed-to- FDR phrase, "Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it".... Eustace, I think your next-to-last paragraph is especially important. There *does* exist in the WW this tendency to shove problem issues under the rug and to seemingly ignore some historical fact--or to paint it in a falsely positive light. [It strikes me, too, that Fudge--whether ESE! or Bumbling!) is an excellent Poster Boy for this attitude, is he not?] You're right that it makes sense that a part of this lack of knowledge/failure to ask important questions can be chalked up to an authorial tool to keep us in the dark, but I would not be at all surprised if JKR makes this lack of knowledge/failure to ask, and especially, failure to learn from the past, a critical part of the story. Siriusly Snapey Susan From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Thu Jul 29 19:39:55 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:39:55 -0400 Subject: Snapes Attitude towards the Students Message-ID: <001701c475a3$da6cd0e0$38c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 108115 stephenflynn001 asked: > Does anybody know if Snape has every been disciplined for the actions > and behaviour towards not just Harry but all the students outside of > Slytherin. It seems ridiculous that a person with his temperment and > obvious chip on his shoulder should be responsible for childrens > development. Potioncat: "Yes, it's in OoP when Umbridge is interviewing him about his experience at Hogwarts. Every year he submits his resignation but DD refuses to accept it until he teaches for one full year without abuses. Of course he blows that chance with the first Gryffindor class." DuffyPoo: I think you have a different version of OotP than I have, Potioncat, though that's not necessarily surprising to me, I've seen quite a few discrepancies lately. I'm assuming your answer to the question is a joke but if not, can you please quote your reference? I went to school to Snape - well, that wasn't his name but I'm quite sure it was him - he wasn't disciplined for his teaching style then either though that was rather a long time ago. We really only see Snape's attitude toward Slytherin and Gryffindor. Slytherin is his house and it's quite well known that he shows favourtism to them He may be perfectly normal to Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff kids, though I doubt it. Why he hasn't been disciplined is anyone's guess; maybe in the WW world they think this kind of treatment by teachers is perfectly normal. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 29 19:47:23 2004 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 19:47:23 -0000 Subject: The HBP isn't Tom Riddle (Was: Riddle AND Voldemort in the Chamber ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108116 David wrote: > I've heard the "Dobby thinks they're different so JKR must think > they're different" statement as evidence to the theory that JKR > considers T. Riddle and Lord Voldemort to be separate - and I can > understand why. > > > > What I don't understand is: > > > ...edited quote... > > > If Riddle and Voldemort are not one and the same, then when did > Voldemort appear for Harry to be able to hear his laughter? or Why > does JKR call the spirit from the diary by both names? > > > Asian_lovr2 (Steve) responded: > > Dobby's 'clue' about Riddle not being Voldemort (short version) > doesn't create an absolute, but it does set a precedent. > > This arguement stems from JKR saying that the Half Blood Prince is not Harry or Voldemort. That brings up the question, does that absolutely eliminate Tom Riddle? > > Tom and Voldy are different, in the same way that no 70 year old man > is the same person he was at 16. They are also different in that > Voldemort has is new semi-immortal Snake body, where as Tom Riddle was a tall handsome man. Also, until he killed his parents, Tom may have > been redeemable, he may have been salvagable. And Voldemort, as I'm > sure we all agree, is beyond slavation. > > But from a different perspective, they are indeed that same person, in the sense that a 16 year old boy grows to be a 70 year old man. They are different, yet one and the same; different does not mean totally disconnected. > > So the question is not an absolute but a matter of perspective, and > the extention of that question is whether or not JKR has made a > distinction between Voldemort and Riddle when she says the Half Blood Prince is not Harry or Voldy? > > While we can not read her mind and say with absolute certainty, we can point to precedents that support that theory. Carol responds: I'm still behind on posting so someone may have posted this already, though I didn't find it in a quick search. But the updated FAQ on JKR's website states plainly that Tom Riddle and Voldemort are the same person, and if the HBP isn't Voldemort, it's not Tom Riddle, either. Carol From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Thu Jul 29 19:50:27 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:50:27 -0400 Subject: Lily and magic outside school Message-ID: <001d01c475a5$4c4795f0$38c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 108117 Meltowne said: "I suspect that for the most part the restrictions on underage sorcery are mostly applied to muggle-born students" DuffyPoo: But just before departing school in PS "notes were handed out to *all* [emphasis mine] students, warning them not to use magic over the holidays. 'I always hope they'll forget to give us these,' said Fred Weasley sadly." I think most of the kids in Hogwarts are wizard kids, not Muggle-borns. I can only think of a few: Hermione, Dennis & Colin Creevey, Penelope Clearwater, Justin Finch-Fletchley and Dean Thomas (although we know from JKR that Dean's backstory is half-blood.) As Katie said: "I have a feeling The-Boy-Who-Lived is watched quite a bit closer than a regular Hogwarts student." DuffyPoo again: That's why magic at his house is noted quite quickly: the Hover Charm Dobby performed, the blowing up of Aunt Petunia, the Patronus. The boy's bein' watched. Maybe he needs to start drinking out of a hip-flask like Moody! ;) Strangely enough, when the Advance Guard came to Privet drive, unlocked the door to his room, Tonks packed his trunk, Locomotored it down the stairs, the Disillusionment Moody did, etc., no owls showed up then. I'm almost starting to think Dobby informed the ministry that magic might be done in Privet Drive that night, that Mrs. Figg notified the ministry about something happening at number four after seeing Harry take off down the road with his trunk, and that since Umbridge sent the Dementors to the alley, she was watching them for any sign of magic being performed around them. Also, don't we have a "near miss" accident on the news that day? '...a helicopter that had almost crashed in a field in Surrey...' on the news report Harry heard while laying in the flower bed. Had it nearly hit a Dementor or Umbridge on her broom? ;) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Jul 29 20:18:26 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 20:18:26 -0000 Subject: What Kreacher knew, was RE: Sirius's part In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108118 SSSusan: > Well, I guess I need to ask some further questions of clarification: > > 1) Are you suggesting that it's Sturgis P. who might've been the one Kreacher has info on, that Sturgis was spying for Voldy? > > 2) Are you suggesting it might be Lupin even though you're not going to go into the details of that possibility again just yet? > > 3) Or are you merely suggesting that Kreacher could be dangerous just *because* the trail to Lucius & Narcissa could be made if Kreacher is found? > > Siriusly Snapey Susan, fully aware that there might be more than one "yes" response within these three questions, and that there might also be a "Boy, you ARE dense, aren't you?" one as well.< Pippin: You're not dense! JKR's plots are so convoluted that it's hard to untangle them even when she's given us the explanation at the end, and I'm trying to do it without that. I don't think SP was spying for Voldie of his own free will. The scar pain Harry felt when Umbridge touched him (OOP ch 13), happened soon after Podmore's conviction and sentence to Azkaban (ch 14.) and was probably Voldemort's reaction to hearing the news. LV was happy about it--that wouldn't be the case of Podmore was working for him. I think Hermione was right that SP was under Imperius. Where I disagree with her is "what if he was standing guard by the door, invisible, and Malfoy heard him move -- or guessed someone was there - or just did the Imperius Curse on the off chance there'd be a guard there? So when Sturgis next had an opportunity--probably when it was his turn on guard duty again--he tried to get into the department to steal the weapon for Voldemort--Ron be quiet--but he got caught and sent to Azkaban" (OOP ch 26). Ron has just heard the name Voldemort spoken several times in this scene without flinching, he's probably reacting not to the name but to the implausibility of Hermione's suggestion. As Hermione herself will point out later in the story, it's a building full of Aurors. Hardly the place to randomly fire the Imperius curse at an invisible person. What if the invisible person had been Dumbledore himself? That would have been interesting! Acccording to Percy's letter, (OOP ch 14) Sturgis is a known friend of Dumbledore, but Dumbledore has lots of friends. The DE's can't assume that Podmore is in the Order and has access to Moody's invisibility cloak just because he's a friend of Dumbledore's. So if he didn't change sides, and he was invisible while on duty, *how* did they know he was going to be in a position to break into a highly secure area in the middle of the night? The most likely answer is that somebody in the Order told them. I am also suggesting that Kreacher had a means of communication with the Malfoys that they didn't want discovered. It could be a magical device like the mirrors or it could be a person, possibly the same person who grassed on Podmore. And yes, it could be ESE!Lupin. But it could be ESE!somebody else, too. Pippin From sad1199 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 29 20:20:35 2004 From: sad1199 at yahoo.com (sad1199) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 20:20:35 -0000 Subject: Snapes Attitude towards the Students In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108119 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "stephenflynn001" wrote: > Hi all, > > Does anybody know if Snape has every been disciplined for the actions > and behaviour towards not just Harry but all the students outside of > Slytherin. It seems ridiculous that a person with his temperment and > obvious chip on his shoulder should be responsible for childrens > development. > > SF sad1199 replies: I don't remember Snape ever being disciplined. But, then again, I don't remember ANY students going to the proper authorities about him. The only students he is purposely worse than nasty to are Harry and Neville. Harry, because of Snape's unresolved hatred for his father and Neville, I think because not only does Neville remind Snape of himself (nervous, incompetent, the one made fun of most...) but because I believe in the pensieve we see Snape's abusive home and the way his father treated him. My daughter (10th grade) had a teacher last year similar to Snape. Very quiet, very authorative, demanded respect on the verge of being rude and abusive. My daughter complained quite loudly to me but when it came to going to the V.P., she said "No. It's not that bad..." This teacher had his favorites who, of course had more privileges than others in the classroom and my daughter was not one of them. But, here I can compare her to Harry. She is a TALKER, she is very cute and has learned that she really doesn't have to do her best to get by, she is used to getting her own way and slipping out of trouble because, of course, her V.P. thinks she is adorable and has such potential. Back to my point now, this teacher taught her and the other students. She actuallly had to sit there and learn. Not only algebra but a lesson in life that not everybody likes you and you might not like everybody, either. By the way, a note attached to her report card from this teacher: "Desiree can be whatever she wants if she puts her mind to it. She started out rough but, in the end showed her true colors and was a pleasure to have in class. Grade B+." What I'm saying is, I don't think WW is allowing Snape to be abusive because they don't know enough about it and that there are still teachers today that are like Snape. Have a Happy Love Filled Day sad1199 From juli17 at aol.com Thu Jul 29 20:48:05 2004 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:48:05 EDT Subject: Fudge and Harry as Gryffindor's heir - In praise of Neville Message-ID: <140.2f7c5836.2e3abc85@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 108120 : > Kneasy: > >Neville is really a Huff. Not really good at anything. > Magda: > > Not at all. Huffs are the ultimate team players and > all-for-one-one-for-all types. They're the service-club-joiners, the > Kiwanis-Club-leaders, the civic-munipal-politician types. The group > is everything. > > Neville's a loner - off on his own and popping up on our radar screen > only occasionally. But whenever he shows up in OOTP, he surprises us > with how much he's grown and developed. And even without his own > support network, he was capable of both physical courage (know anyone > else in the series who's taken on Goyle and Crabbe singlehandedly?) > and moral bravery (standing up to the Trio when they were about the > leave the Tower in PS/SS). Neville had more guts in his first year > than Remus Lupin had in his fifth with the authority of prefect to > boot. > Julie: I agree. Neville's problem is lack of confidence. His case actually makes me believe the Sorting Hat does the actual sorting, however much it may hem and haw, and give lip service to considering the student's preference. I'm sure Neville didn't think he was Gryffindor material, and expected to be sorted to Hufflepuff. But the Sorting Hat put him in Gryffindor anyway. (It makes me wonder if the long time it took to sort Neville was because of an ongoing argument between Neville and the Hat--"I'm sure I belong in Hufflepuff.", "Hmm. Perhaps, but you would also do well in Gryffindor.", "But I'm not brave enough!", "Courage reveals itself in many forms and deeds.", "But I'm not really good at anything. I'm just average.", etc, etc.) I also wonder if the Sorting Hat has any preconception of what is to come in the Wizarding World. Maybe it sorted Neville, Hermoine (who appears on the surface a natural Ravenclaw), and the year's other Gryffindors partially based on the understanding that they were ones who would stand by Harry no matter what might come--certainly one true definition of courage. Julie (who thinks courage in the face of fear--Hermoine--and courage in the face of self-doubt--Neville--are the strongest and perhaps purest examples of courage, since conquering something that comes hard is a far greater personal achievement than conquering something that comes easy) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jferer at yahoo.com Thu Jul 29 20:55:16 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 20:55:16 -0000 Subject: Can Lucius Talk His Way Out of This One? In-Reply-To: <072920041326.2665.4108FAEC000B664300000A6922007637049C9C07049D0B@comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108121 Lissa, discussing the evidence against Lucius Malfoy:"How many of those people's testimony will be accepted though? "In PoA, Dumbledore says that Sirius will not be cleared because of the word of three thirteen year old wizards and a werewolf. The Trio's aged a bit, but they're still kids. I think that eliminates ALL the kids (especially since the fact that all of them but Luna have Issues with the Malfoys is very well known, just by their behavior with Draco at school). Lupin's still a werewolf, so his testimony's pretty much out. Fudge and his cohorts aren't listening to Dumbledore- and if anyone believes he's after power, they won't listen either. Mad-Eye Moody WAS respected, but people don't quite believe him these days... Tonks and Shacklebolt, on the other hand... I can't come up with a good argument there." As DuffyPoo said, things are different now. The balance of power in the wizard world changed dramatically that night. Harry and Dumbledore are riding high, and Fudge and Umbridge are in the, uh, sanitary facilities. The testimony of the kids and the four or five people I missed is way different from the situation at the end of PoA. On top of that, I suppose Harry and Neville forced Lucius to put on his DE mask and accouterments, and go to the MoM in the middle of the night? Lissa:"It's still possible someone as slippery as Malfoy could worm his way out of this one. Most of his opponents just aren't in the best standing with the rest of the Wizarding World!" That's what I'm scared of. The differences in "standing" have changed, but money still talks. He can still try the Imperius Defense. OTOH, if I was a prosecutor I'd take this case to a jury with a song in my heart. You seldom get more evidence than this. Jim Ferer, who also remembers who the Chief Warlock and Supreme Mugwump is, having been restored in glory From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Thu Jul 29 20:57:26 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 20:57:26 -0000 Subject: What Kreacher knew, was RE: Sirius's part In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108122 >>> Pippin wrote: > I think Hermione was right that SP was under Imperius. Where I > disagree with her is "what if he was standing guard by the door, > invisible, and Malfoy heard him move -- or guessed someone > was there - or just did the Imperius Curse on the off chance > there'd be a guard there? So when Sturgis next had an > opportunity--probably when it was his turn on guard duty > again--he tried to get into the department to steal the weapon for > Voldemort--Ron be quiet--but he got caught and sent to Azkaban" > (OOP ch 26). > > Ron has just heard the name Voldemort spoken several times in > this scene without flinching, he's probably reacting not to the > name but to the implausibility of Hermione's suggestion. As > Hermione herself will point out later in the story, it's a building > full of Aurors. Hardly the place to randomly fire the Imperius > curse at an invisible person. What if the invisible person had > been Dumbledore himself? That would have been interesting! > > Acccording to Percy's letter, (OOP ch 14) Sturgis is a known > friend of Dumbledore, but Dumbledore has lots of friends. The > DE's can't assume that Podmore is in the Order and has access > to Moody's invisibility cloak just because he's a friend of > Dumbledore's. So if he didn't change sides, and he was invisible > while on duty, *how* did they know he was going to be in a > position to break into a highly secure area in the middle of the > night? > > The most likely answer is that somebody in the Order told them. > > I am also suggesting that Kreacher had a means of > communication with the Malfoys that they didn't want discovered. > It could be a magical device like the mirrors or it could be a > person, possibly the same person who grassed on Podmore. > > And yes, it could be ESE!Lupin. But it could be ESE!somebody > else, too. Bren now: Brilliant, always brilliant! It is very plausible that Kreacher was more involved than we know. Was there any mention in OoP (before Christmas) when Sirius started suspecting Kreacher (his whereabouts, for instance)? Now what I'd like to know is (among many many other things), is house-elf part of the inheritance/will? Where will Kreacher end up now that Sirius is -hiccup- dead? Does the Black estate go to Bellatrrix and was it why Kreacher was so motivated to eliminate Sirius (well if we believe he was)?? More questions, so little brain cells... Brenda From bethg2 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 29 21:05:29 2004 From: bethg2 at yahoo.com (bethg2 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:05:29 -0000 Subject: Regulus Black's son the HBP or ..... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108123 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eabarboza" wrote: > > Beth now: > > While the inheritance angle is interesting I couldn't help thinking > > that a lot of what is said about Regulus could apply to Severus as > > well. JKR said that there was more information about the teacher's > > families, maybe the HBP is Snape's son. Could one of these men's sons > > be the often theorized "good slytherin"? > > > > > I am glad that other people find this theory interesting. > > Beth, how would Sirius' death bring Snape's son into the story? > Snape is not related to the Black Family and even if he was it is a > very distant relationship. His son wouldn't be in line for the > inheritance. > > The basis for this theory is to explain Sirius' death in some way. I > think the HBP is connected to this is some way, and the this new > character will make a profound difference in Harry's fight against > Voldemort. > > -Erika I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I meant to move away from the Sirius's death part of theory, but say it was interesting, and into the faculty kids/"good slytherin" neck of the woods. It was much vague association of similar ideas on my part. Yes the HBP could be Sirius's heir. Or instead he could fill one of the other roles: -good slytherin -faculty family -dark temptor (maybe for Hermione or politically for Percy) -link to the Potter family background Beth From xtremesk8ergurl2 at aol.com Thu Jul 29 20:13:17 2004 From: xtremesk8ergurl2 at aol.com (xtremesk8ergurl2 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:13:17 EDT Subject: Snapes Attitude towards the Students Message-ID: <9a.1071bc06.2e3ab45d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 108124 wrote: > Hi all, > > Does anybody know if Snape has every been disciplined for the > actions and behaviour towards not just Harry but all the students > outside of Slytherin? It seems ridiculous that a person with his > temperament and obvious chip on his shoulder should be responsible > for childrens' development. I don't know if he's ever been disciplined. I've only seen him mistreat Gryffindors, I haven't seen anything with the Hufflepuffs or Ravenclaws, something I've always wondered. I think part of it is that the Slytherins never really give him any reason to criticize them, they never seem to have trouble following his directions or behaving in class. Neville often messes up, Hermione often blurts out answers, and Harry occasionally misbehaves. The other part of it is that he obviously favors Slytherins. -xtremesk8ergurl2 From ExSlytherin at aol.com Thu Jul 29 21:20:19 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:20:19 -0000 Subject: What evidence do we have againt Lucius? was: JKR Speaks: Arthur Weasly will NOT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108125 > Jim Ferer wrote: > Huh? Lucius is in the can after being taken prisoner by Albus > Dumbledore with a number of known Death Eaters, probably with his > mask, in the MoM in the middle of the night. We'll have the testimony of Harry, Ron, Hermione, Luna, Neville, Dumbledore, Tonks, and Lupin. We don't know what a Priori Incantatem on Lucius's wand will show, but that may also be incriminating. If the rules in the WW allow the arrestees to be questioned under Veritaserum, it's all over for Lucius. How much evidence does it take? Mandy again: But take a closer look at just who can give evidence against Malfoy: Harry, Ron, Hermione, Luna and Neville are underage, and I can easily see Malfoy's lawyer arguing to make their testimony inadmissible. Any competent defense lawyer could destroy the testimony of six 15- year-old wizards who are out of school without permission, and running around, vandalizing the MoM in the middle of the night destroying prophecy orbs. Lupin is a known Werewolf, despised by most of the WW and also too easily discredited. Tonks and Shaklebolt both work secretly for the Order whilst holding down ministry jobs. Tonks as an Auror, and Shaklebolt as head of the search for Sirius Black. They are both spying on the Ministry for DD. Remember the trouble Arthur and Shaklebolt went to keep their relationship quiet so as not to jeopardize Shaklebolt position in the Ministry? Would DD want the Ministry to know he had Order members inside the Ministry spying? DD may not care at this point, but he could also just as easily want to keep their position within the Order quiet, and simply refuse to let them testify. The other DE could definitely testify against Malfoy unless Voldemort shuts them up. That only leaves DD himself. Now I wouldn't want to go up against DD as Chief Warlock and head of the Wizengamot, but someone with Lucius Malfoy power and wealth would. If the Priori Incantatem is performed on Malfoy's wand and shadows of the spells he cast come out, depending on what he threw, and at whom, any competent lawyer would atleast attempt to argue self- defense. I can see Lucius wrangling his way out, especially if DD wants it to happen. And as I said before if there is any reason for DD to want to keep Malfoy out of trouble it could easily be arranged. Cheers Mandy From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Jul 29 21:20:41 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:20:41 -0000 Subject: Original Order, Imperius and Inheritence and traits In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108126 > Eustace_Scrubb: > As Amey said, blood (genealogy) in and of itself means little. But as > you add, that doesn't mean that _history_ means little. Many of the > problems the WW has are a result of the failure to record and > disseminate knowledge of its history. Just as Harry (and Tom Riddle, > also) know little of their own heritage, the Wizarding World as a > whole tends to ignore its history, particularly anything unpleasant. > Whatever we may think of the curriculum at Hogwarts, it's clear that > the history taught there is boring and nearly useless. I doubt that > Binns was much better at teaching it when he was alive, but I think > the lack of value placed on the subject is pretty clear--not only did > Binns just continue on his merry way not noticing that he'd become a > ghost, the Headmaster (whoever it was at the time) didn't bother to > fill the position with a living professor. > > In the WW as a whole, the tendency is to ignore conflict (treatment of > house elves, relations with centaurs) and to create false symbols of > magical unity (the statue in the lobby of the MoM), avoid discussion > of potential problems (the fact that Voldemort's demise was far from > certain after Godric's Hollow) and to forget the past rather than try > to learn from it. > > So Harry is quite representative of the Wizarding World as a whole in > his lack of knowledge of his past and his failure to ask important > questions. The latter is a pet peeve of many readers and has > sometimes been seen as a convenient if sloppy authorial tool to keep > the reader in suspense. Maybe it's much more than that. Maybe it's a > critical part of the overall story...and just maybe Harry will have to > overcome this to prevail in the end. Jen: I think you have the WW pegged here, Eustace! Why do so few people in the WW just take this glaring omission as reality? Dumbeldore is the only person to explicitly point out the flaws in the system. Aack--I'm reminded of the Fisher King again, can't get away from that story, but there's a similarity with the vast wasteland that can't be healed until an innocent arrives at the castle, asking whom the Grail serves or 'what ails thee?' to the wounded Fisher King. Maybe Valky is right and the WW is under an ages-old spell that can only be undone by whatever it is Harry is there to do (to simplify Valky's theory just a little ). Jen From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 29 21:23:57 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:23:57 -0000 Subject: Snapes Attitude towards the Students In-Reply-To: <001701c475a3$da6cd0e0$38c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108127 > > Potioncat: > > "Yes, it's in OoP when Umbridge is interviewing him about his > experience at Hogwarts. Every year he submits his resignation but DD > refuses to accept it until he teaches for one full year without > abuses. Of course he blows that chance with the first Gryffindor > class." > > > DuffyPoo: > > I think you have a different version of OotP than I have, Potioncat, though that's not necessarily surprising to me, I've seen quite a few discrepancies lately. I'm assuming your answer to the question is a joke but if not, can you please quote your reference? Alla: Cathy, yeah, I am pretty sure that Potioncat was joking. Gotta love her sense of humor. :o) Cathy: > We really only see Snape's attitude toward Slytherin and Gryffindor. Slytherin is his house and it's quite well known that he shows favourtism to them He may be perfectly normal to Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff kids, though I doubt it. Why he hasn't been disciplined is anyone's guess; maybe in the WW world they think this kind of treatment by teachers is perfectly normal. Alla; Here is another problem I have with Snape (and I have plenty :o)) His attitude towards Harry and Neville in classroom is interwined with his personal grudges, vendettas so deeply, that I can never separate two occasions. Tough teacher can be very very good, but I don't think that what Snape does to Harry is in any way related to teaching, or maybe it is, but we'll never know till the end. From ExSlytherin at aol.com Thu Jul 29 21:29:59 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:29:59 -0000 Subject: JKR Speaks: Arthur Weasly will NOT be next Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108128 > Mandy: Plus we know Malfoy Sr. is going to be dead by the > > end of book 7 so his rein would be short, just enough time cause > some > > delightful mayhem. > Shirley, curious > Huh? Once again I may be showing my ignorance of all things HP/JKR > (interviews), but exactly *how* do we know that Malfoy Sr. is going > to be dead by the end of book 7? Mandy again: Pure speculation. Just 'cause he's a bad guy, and the bad guys must get their just deserts at the end for all the evil they done. ;-) From TonyaMinton at hotmail.com Thu Jul 29 21:31:16 2004 From: TonyaMinton at hotmail.com (tonyaminton) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:31:16 -0000 Subject: WW vs RW was Re: Timelines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108129 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > Alas, the WW has a wrong side of town (Knockturn Alley) drive-by > shootings (Cedric Diggory) and be careful who and what you say > to people about yourself (see Hagrid's and Sirius's descriptions > of the first Voldemort war.) From the description of people flooing > in and out of fireplaces at the MOM, it has rush hour traffic too-- I > wonder what happens when the floo network is overloaded? > > Pippin Tonya again: Very good points (although you sort of popped my bubble). If the floo network is overloaded then there would be "floo waiting", I bet they have better hold music then most RW businesses. I wonder if solar flares would affect magic usage at all?? That would be interesting if the WW had a magic outage. What would happen?? What could cause that?? I cannot think of any references that could lead us to that ever happening. Tonya (who still thinks that the WW would be cool to live in) From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Jul 29 21:33:45 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:33:45 -0000 Subject: New Maps Added to 'Speculative Geography' LINKS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108130 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: Steve: > Some of you may know that I posted several maps in the 'Speculative > Geography' section of the LINKS folder. > > -Where in the World is Surrey? (Maps, Data, and Links) Geoff: You seem to have invented a whole heap of cities in your notes. The only cities on the map would be the cities of London and Westminster. The choice of towns in Surrey is rather varied. I wouldn't include Haslemere on a list of major places. Also, Croydon is a very large and important commercial centre - if it wasn't only a few miles from London it probably would be a city in its own right and not a London Borough. Steve: > -Where in the World is Grimmauld Place? > (It's about a 20 minute walk from 12 Grimmauld Place to King's Cross > Station. This is a map of London that has a 1 mile radius from > King's Cross drawn on it. Most people have speculated that North of > King's Cross is a likely area. Note, the road to the right of the > SOHO district near the bottom of the map is Charring Cross Road. Geoff: (Charing Cross Road if I may correct your spelling). There was a thread on the location of Grimmauld Place looking at the Underground station evidence. It begins at message 83992. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 29 21:38:00 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:38:00 -0000 Subject: What Kreacher knew, was RE: Sirius's part In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108131 > > Bren now: snip. > Now what I'd like to know is (among many many other things), is > house-elf part of the inheritance/will? Where will Kreacher end up > now that Sirius is -hiccup- dead? Does the Black estate go to > Bellatrrix and was it why Kreacher was so motivated to eliminate > Sirius (well if we believe he was)?? Alla: Hi! Do you think Kreacher read Sirius' will if such exists at all? I am hoping that his estate will go to Harry, but yes, it is likely that it will go to to the blood relative. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 29 21:40:52 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:40:52 -0000 Subject: JKR Speaks: Arthur Weasly will NOT be next Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108132 > > Shirley previously: Huh? Once again I may be showing my ignorance of all things HP/JKR > > (interviews), but exactly *how* do we know that Malfoy Sr. is going > > to be dead by the end of book 7? > > > Mandy again: > Pure speculation. Just 'cause he's a bad guy, and the bad guys must > get their just deserts at the end for all the evil they done. ;-) Alla: Yes, Mandy, i think this is a speculation, which is 99% likely to come true. :o) I would also add Daraco to the list of "dead people" at the end, although this one I would say - 90%. And, of course, who wants to bet that Voldie will be dead at the end? From MadameSSnape at aol.com Thu Jul 29 21:50:13 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 17:50:13 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snapes Attitude towards the Students Message-ID: <15a.3af54c68.2e3acb15@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 108134 In a message dated 7/29/2004 2:28:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, stephenflynn001 at yahoo.co.uk writes: Does anybody know if Snape has every been disciplined for the actions and behaviour towards not just Harry but all the students outside of Slytherin. It seems ridiculous that a person with his temperment and obvious chip on his shoulder should be responsible for childrens development. ================ Sherrie here: Ever read anything about Victorian schoolmasters/mistresses? IMHO, "modern" theories of educational psychology can't really be applied to Hogwarts - like much in the WW, they seem to be more in the Victorian mold. In that context, Snape's behavior isn't really very far outside the norm - a bit harsher than most, perhaps, but not unusually so. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ExSlytherin at aol.com Thu Jul 29 21:59:26 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:59:26 -0000 Subject: Death and the Bad Boys. was: JKR Speaks: Arthur Weasly will NOT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108135 > > Mandy again: > > Pure speculation. Just 'cause he's a bad guy, and the bad guys > must get their just deserts at the end for all the evil they done. ;-) > >Alla wrote: > Yes, Mandy, i think this is a speculation, which is 99% likely to > come true. :o) I would also add Daraco to the list of "dead people" > at the end, although this one I would say - 90%. > And, of course, who wants to bet that Voldie will be dead at the end? Mandy here: Really? Draco too? I see Draco surviving but severely punished. The death of his father, the family name disgraced, perhaps even his inheritance gone. Draco being forced to accept a life he never imagined he'd have to live. I guess I want to teach Draco a lesson rather then kill him. Voldemort 100% dead. Bellatrix 100% dead Snape 100% dead. You know it got to happen. Cheers Mandy From andejons at dd.chalmers.se Thu Jul 29 21:33:53 2004 From: andejons at dd.chalmers.se (Anders Jonsson) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:33:53 +0200 Subject: Fudge and Harry as Gryffindor's heir In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200407292133.i6TLXrB9028169@eru.dd.chalmers.se> No: HPFGUIDX 108136 Kneasy wrote: >Neville is really a Huff. Not really good at anything. But it's Ravenclaws that are supposed to be good at school- it is never said that Gryffindors should be as well. And if you're calling a boy, who goes to help his friend face around ten DE (with a nose that makes him unable to talk properly and someone else's wand, no less), anything but brave, you have some very high standards. Oh, and this is my first post, so I guess I should say hi to all people around. Don't mind me too much, I'll probably mostly lurk around. Anders From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 29 22:06:17 2004 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 22:06:17 -0000 Subject: Death and the Bad Boys. was: JKR Speaks: Arthur Weasly will NOT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108137 > Mandy here: > Really? Draco too? I see Draco surviving but severely punished. > The death of his father, the family name disgraced, perhaps even his > inheritance gone. Draco being forced to accept a life he never > imagined he'd have to live. I guess I want to teach Draco a lesson > rather then kill him. > > Voldemort 100% dead. > Bellatrix 100% dead > Snape 100% dead. You know it got to happen. > > Alla: I am all for teaching Draco a lesson and I would prefer to see him survive too (just cannot bring myself to be happy about the death of the child, even a fictional one and no matter how much I dislike him), BUT as I said earlier I feel that JKR gave up on Malfoy Jr. too and will not write his redemption. Snape.... Hmm. I still did not give up on the possibility of his survival and yes, Bella is toasted, absolutely. From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Thu Jul 29 22:06:41 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 22:06:41 -0000 Subject: Death and the Bad Boys. was: JKR Speaks: Arthur Weasly will NOT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108138 >>> Mandy wrote: > Voldemort 100% dead. > Bellatrix 100% dead > Snape 100% dead. You know it got to happen. <<< Bren now: Well I'll give you Bella, she's a goner. So is Lucius I think. As for Snape, I don't know, he's 50-50 for me. Now to the juicy bit of ending -- Voldemort's fate. I somehow don't think he'll "die" in a traditional sense? Don't know if he has enough human in him to die (oops, missing the quotations!) But definitely utterly destroyed to nothing. Like something after Dementor's kiss, for instance. Wouldn't it be *hilarious* if now- souless-powerless Voldie was locked in showcase at the British National Museum of Wizarding History or something? Brenda From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Thu Jul 29 21:45:38 2004 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:45:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Can Lucius Talk His Way Out of This One? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040729214538.76868.qmail@web50105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 108139 > Lissa > "Fudge and his cohorts aren't listening to Dumbledore- and if > anyone believes he's after power, they won't listen either. Mad-Eye > Moody WAS respected, but people don't quite believe him these > days...Tonks and Shacklebolt, on the other hand... I can't come up > with a good argument there." It's all different after OOTP. Did you hear the way Dumbledore was openly ordering Fudge around in front of the other MoM employees and Aurors at the end of the fight? "You will do this....you will do that..." Dumbledore is back in the saddle now and not caring if Fudge looks humiliated as a result. I can't see JKR bringing the series' plot threads to a halt by somehow letting Lucius get off without a hitch. What would be the point, plot-wise? Magda __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Thu Jul 29 22:17:11 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 22:17:11 -0000 Subject: What Kreacher knew, was RE: Sirius's part In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108140 >>> Bren earlier: > > Is house-elf part of the inheritance/will? Where will Kreacher end up now that Sirius is -hiccup- dead? Does the Black estate go to Bellatrrix and was it why Kreacher was so motivated to eliminate > > Sirius (well if we believe he was)?? > > Alla responded: > Hi! > Do you think Kreacher read Sirius' will if such exists at all? I am hoping that his estate will go to Harry, but yes, it is likely that it will go to to the blood relative. <<< Bren now: Hiya Alla!! Well, I have no clue if Sirius actually made a will, I don't even know if he had that in mind. But I'm sure there are wizarding laws of inheritence matter in case of sudden unprepared death. And the "noble" pureblood Black family would know great deal about laws, I'm sure. IMO there is a good chance that Kreacher knew where he was going after Sirius was eliminated. Brenda From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 29 22:19:41 2004 From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:19:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Can Lucius Talk His Way Out of This One? In-Reply-To: <20040729214538.76868.qmail@web50105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040729221941.4364.qmail@web25303.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 108141 Magda Grantwich wrote: > Lissa > "Fudge and his cohorts aren't listening to Dumbledore- and if > anyone believes he's after power, they won't listen either. Mad-Eye > Moody WAS respected, but people don't quite believe him these > days...Tonks and Shacklebolt, on the other hand... I can't come up > with a good argument there." Magda wrote It's all different after OOTP. Did you hear the way Dumbledore was openly ordering Fudge around in front of the other MoM employees and Aurors at the end of the fight? "You will do this....you will do that..." Dumbledore is back in the saddle now and not caring if Fudge looks humiliated as a result. I can't see JKR bringing the series' plot threads to a halt by somehow letting Lucius get off without a hitch. What would be the point, plot-wise? Udderpd I am with you Magda I think that Lucius M will go to Azakban as a DE and they will all escape again and that will cause the downfall of Fudge. Anyway if he is Azakban he can't get killed so he must escape. TTFN Udder Pen Dragon __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eabarboza at yahoo.com Thu Jul 29 22:34:07 2004 From: eabarboza at yahoo.com (eabarboza) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 22:34:07 -0000 Subject: Death and the Bad Boys. was: JKR Speaks: Arthur Weasly will NOT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108142 > Bren now: > Well I'll give you Bella, she's a goner. So is Lucius I think. > As for Snape, I don't know, he's 50-50 for me. > > Now to the juicy bit of ending -- Voldemort's fate. I somehow > don't think he'll "die" in a traditional sense? Don't know if > he has enough human in him to die (oops, missing the quotations!) > > But definitely utterly destroyed to nothing. Like something after > Dementor's kiss, for instance. Wouldn't it be *hilarious* if now- > souless-powerless Voldie was locked in showcase at the British > National Museum of Wizarding History or something? chuckle> Bella must die in order to kill Voldemort. Harry might be strong enough at the end of book 6 to do this (if he finds somebody to teach him more advanced fighting skills). Lucius will end up disgraced and penniless. I really don't think Snape will die. I think he will be badly injured, and that Harry will save him. Maybe Snape will finally have to admit that Harry is not all that bad. DD knows that the only way to kill Voldemort is if Voldemort becomes more human. That is why I think he had that look of triumph at the end of OotP. I keep wondering about that line that DD told Voldemort in OotP that goes something like "there are worse things than death...that has always been your biggest weakness". Sorry I don't have my book with me. I am not sure exactly what that means. Do you think it is the Dementor's Kiss? -Erika From v-tregan at microsoft.com Thu Jul 29 23:07:16 2004 From: v-tregan at microsoft.com (Tim Regan) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:07:16 -0000 Subject: A favor to ask re christian allegory, alchemy, and Stoned!Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108143 Hi All, Gregory Lynn 107992: >>> Does anyone know a web site with a decent summary of the life of Moses? <<< You could try the 1998 movie "The Prince of Egypt" if you fancy an evening in front of the TV. Geoff 107999: >>> Frankly, no parallels between Moses and Harry instantly hit me between the eyes. <<< Not unless Uncle Vernon turns out to be royal. Then you have a babe from one race (well, the wizarding world isn't really a race but you know what I mean) bought up by royalty from another race. The analogy isn't very good, Harry is not brought up as a prince like Moses was, but with all the talk of princes in the air it is interesting. Sadly I think that Vernon would be the first to brag about royal connections, so they probably do not exist. The only other supporting tidbit I can dredge up is "Privet Drive". This must be a reference to the use of privet in small-town England as a "privacy hedge", hence it's a common and a bland name. But henna is also known as Egyptian Privet and was used on mummies and in mehndi designs, which were in part for warding off evil. Hans 108067: >>> Moses too was a parseltongue <<< Fantastic point. But I think the real biblical analogy is between John the Baptist and Albus Dumbledore. The prophesy clearly marks Dumbledore out as the one who must wait for the savior since it tells Dumbledore that great though he may be, he is not great enough to vanquish Volde. Cheers, Dumbledad. From jferer at yahoo.com Thu Jul 29 23:10:01 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:10:01 -0000 Subject: Fudge and Harry as Gryffindor's heir In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108144 Kneasy: "Neville is really a Huff. Not really good at anything. Just because he's better at Herbology than his other subjects doesn't mean much. He's barely C+ overall and Herbology isn't a subject that requires much magical skill anyway. "Ah!" posters say, "that's because he used his fathers wand." Tripe, says I. It's because he has so little magical content that he was thought by his family to be "all Muggle." If he were an animagus he'd be a hamster." His magical talents may not be as great as some others, but there's something he's good at: Loyalty and courage. How can there be any doubt anymore that Neville Longbottom is anything but a 100% Gryffindor hero? A fifteen year old kid who would rather take the Cruciatus Curse than desert his friend and have the enemy win their goal? I hope that we'll see a different Neville, a more confident, less easily cowed Neville. That wouldn't surprise me at all. He's the anti-Pettigrew. Yes, it's about choices. Is Harry the genetic Heir of Gryffindor? Maybe, maybe not, but he's shaping up to be the spiritual Heir. From Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com Thu Jul 29 23:16:43 2004 From: Agent_Maxine_is at hotmail.com (Brenda M.) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:16:43 -0000 Subject: Fudge and Harry as Gryffindor's heir In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108145 >>> Kneasy wrote: > ... the supposed traits mean nothing taken in isolation. > > What's the point of being brave if you don't also exercise judgement? [snip] > > There's nothing particularly reprehensible about being ambitious or cunning; it all depends on how you use those attributes and what your aims are. [snip] <<< Bren now: I agree with you, I don't think the house distinction is all that clear-cut. Some of the students appear to be more directed to one trait, some other displaying very dualistic nature, whereas others possess different traits equally. I can visualize it as a pyramid -- each vertex of the base represents each house and the emphasized values, but as you move higher up the distinction becomes unclear. Harry/Hermione/Ginny certainly possess wide range of different house traits. A well- balanced powerful wizard will stand at the top of pyramid, the midpoint of all 4 houses -- Dumbledore will be perfect example for this, with his mischievous eye-twinkling and all. Brenda From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Thu Jul 29 23:52:17 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:52:17 -0000 Subject: Snape's part in death of Sirius - Revised Time In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108146 > Asian_lovr2: > > From Snape's point > of view there is no reason to panic. And remember, all the information > Snape has is - (Chapt 23 - Out of The Fire) > > - Umbridge and the I-Squad have captured Harry and friends > - Umbridge wants Veritaserum > - Umbridge 'found Potter using my/her fire to communicate with a > person or Persons unknown'. > - Umbridge want to interogate Harry > - Harry says "He's got Padfoot! ... He's got Padfoot at the place > where it's hidden!" > > That's it. Neri: First, lets clarify one thing. Snape understood Harry had a vision from Voldy's mind: -------------------------------------------------------- OotP, Ch. 37 'Kreacher told me last night,' said Dumbledore. 'You see, when you gave Professor Snape that cryptic warning, he realised that you had had a vision of Sirius trapped in the bowels of the Department of Mysteries. -------------------------------------------------------- Snape's responsibility is of course a subjective question. Especially since it is not his actions that are in question here, but his non- actions. He mostly did nothing. So I guess each of us will have to decide if he/she would have done something in his place, and what. But first lets consider the real situation. > Asian_lovr2: > > From the > perspective of the Order, all Snape had to do was tell Harry that > Sirius was OK. From the perspective of Snape, Sirius was at home and > Harry was at school with the additional bonus that Harry was also in > trouble; so all was right with the world. > > Nobody had to do anything at this time, and they didn't. Neri: Many of the participants in this thread seem to take this approach - the only danger to Harry is that he will be lured to the DoM and retrieve the prophecy for LV. As long as Snape doesn't have reason to think that Harry can do that, everything is dandy. But in fact there are several other very material dangers to Harry that the Order is well aware of: 1. Harry might simply get killed. By a dementor, by a DE, or by an acromantula in the Forbidden Forest. 2. Harry might be possessed by LV. Moody had already brought up this possibility in Christmas, and we know he wasn't far from the truth. 3. Harry might be kidnapped by a DE or by an agent of LV. In that case they might try smuggling him into the DoM and make him retrieve the prophecy for them by threatening the life of one of his friends (as they actually almost managed to do just before the Order members arrived at the DoM). BTW an agent of LV might be almost anyone. Umbridge certainly might be LV's agent. Is Snape so sure she isn't? 4. Even if Umbridge is not LV's agent, she still might squeeze very sensitive information out of Harry, if not by Veritaserum then by other means. Does the Order consider these dangers material? You bet. They watch Harry like hawks in any place but Hogwarts and GP. They guard him in the Dursleys house, on the way to GP, when he goes to the hearing at the MoM, in his way to the Hogwarts Express, at the Hog's Head, in the Knight Bus. The only place in which they seem to let him wander out of their sight, for no more than an hour, is St. Mungo's. But I assume that St. Mungo's is protected in a similar way to Hogwarts (or the DEs could get rid of Bode much more easily ? just apparate in the Ward and AK him). Losing Harry for several hours in a dangerous place like the Forbidden Forrest with a suspicious person like Umbridge would be, IMO, unthinkable for any Order member (or for any Order member other than Snape). And would they allow that Ron and Hermione are acceptable substitutes for Order guards? C'mon! As an aside: Is the Forbidden Forest included in Hogwarts' anti- apparation defense? I couldn't find out in canon. Even if it is, any wizard can apparate near the forest and then use a broom to scan it and track anybody in it, exactly as Harry did when he followed Snape and Quirrell on his Nimbus in SS/PS. This wizard can also disguise himself with a disillusionment charm, same as Moody used on Harry in the beginning of OotP, so nobody would see him. This is true for Lupin and Sirius, who could easily track Harry in the forest without Umbridge seeing them if only they were notified about the situation. This is also true for any DE who wanted to kidnap Harry. So what kind of response would be expected from an Order member in Snape's situation? Actually we can estimate this quite accurately, because a very similar situation did happen before: the attack on Arthur. At that night before the Christmas holydays the initial information about the situation was very similar to the information Snape had: Harry says he had a vision of an Order member being attacked. Lets see what were the Order's priorities in this case: 1. Get Harry immediately to DD (McGonagall does this without hesitation). 2. Ascertain that Harry indeed had a vision from LV's mind ("How did you see it?") 3. Send an inquiry regarding the status of the Order member in question (through the portraits). 4. Test that Harry is not possessed by LV at this very moment ("in essence divided", and note that DD performs the test even BEFORE he gets an answer from the portraits that Arthur was indeed attacked). 5. Divert Umbridge (DD to McGonagall: "tell her any story"). 6. Alert HQ to the situation (I'm not discussing rescuing Arthur because it is not relevant to Snape's case). 7. Get Harry to HQ (and notice DD didn't have to do it just because Arthur was attacked. He could have sent Harry back to his bed. But he wanted Harry out of Umbridge's reach). All these actions were carried out, as much as I can estimate from reading it, within half an hour of the first alert. This is what I call responsible and timely action. Out of all the above, Snape did only #3. He couldn't carry out 1, 2, 4, 5 and 7 because of the problematic situation. Is this a reason to just not do them and forget about it? On the contrary, all the more reason to announce red alert, warn everybody (especially DD) and demand immediate assistance and reinforcements. There are speculations (not canon) that Snape did carry out #6. That is, that he actually told HQ what happened and not merely checked that Sirius is in HQ. Personally I don't believe this speculation, exactly because any other Order member would have made sure priorities 1, 2, 4, 5 and 7 are carried out ASAP. Snape was the only member of the Order left in Hogwarts. From the Order's point-of-view he was Harry's last line of defense. He was also Harry's last communication channel to the Order. Snape knew that, and he certainly knew what were the dangers to Harry. He also realized that Harry is under a mind attack from LV (again, DD specifically mentions that he was). All Snape did was ensuring that Sirius is OK. After that he either didn't bother to check about Harry's situation, or he did check, found that the suspicious Umbridge took him to the dangerous Forbidden Forest, and did nothing about it (not even keeping HQ posted!) for several hours. Several members speculated that he was too busy with other chores, such as dehexing the Slytheryns. If this is true, then this is exactly because he tried to handle a complicated emergency situation all by himself, instead of calling reinforcements immediately. Responsible? You decide. What is almost certain is that if Snape would have acted in the same manner as McGonagall and DD did, the DoM battle and Sirius' death would have been prevented. Neri From Zarleycat at aol.com Thu Jul 29 23:54:26 2004 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:54:26 -0000 Subject: Regulus Black's son the HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108147 Erika wrote: > I have a pretty wild theory, so feel free to tear it up. > > We all know that Siris' death had to happen for a reason. The only > thing I could think of is his inheritance. His death would bring > out any living relative that he has. Marianne: My only quibble wtih this is that this would mean that Sirius' death was not inherently important to the story line. It would mean simply that JKR had to push him off the stage permanently to open the door to the Mystery Child. Sure, this is a reason for the death, but I'm hoping that what JKR meant by that was something more important like Harry needing a guide/companion/voice beyond the veil for some reason not yet known. Otherwise JKR saying that Sirius "had to die" is really no more than a plot device. > What if Regulus was trying to get out because he had fallen in love > with a Muggle. What if he had a son? His son would be a Half Blood > and a "prince", not in the literal sense. He would be the Half > Blood Prince that would try to claim Sirius' inheritance! I agree with Julie that I think it's sort of late in the game for JKR to introduce a totally new character. But, I do like this idea, so maybe, if you are correct, we have been introduced to this character already as a fellow Hogwarts student with Harry. I confess I haven't the time to start exploring which of the other students we've met whose parentage has not yet been outlined. Is there a Slytherin that we only know by name? Blaise Zabini? Or should we assume that if the HBP is truly Regulus' Muggle love-child, that he wouldn't have been sorted into Slytherin? Marianne From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Jul 29 23:56:22 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:56:22 -0000 Subject: Snapes Attitude towards the Students In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108148 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "stephenflynn001" wrote: > Hi all, > > Does anybody know if Snape has every been disciplined for the actions and behaviour towards not just Harry but all the students outside of Slytherin. It seems ridiculous that a person with his temperment and obvious chip on his shoulder should be responsible for childrens development. > Potioncat: Canon doesn't tell us whether Snape is now or ever has been as ill tempered to anyone else in the same way he has to Neville, Harry and Hermione. Canon has indicated he's a strict, unfair teacher. We don't know whether the administration knows the extent of his behavior. JKR has indicated that DD knows and accepts it as a lesson kids have to learn. I tend to think (my opinion) that DD and McGonagall know Severus in way they knew James, in the way they know Harry and Ron. They would know the whole person, not just the overbearing man we know. So they are accepting of his faults within that context. And in CoS, he seems to be a respected member of the faculty. JKR has created a fun and spooky sort of mixed-up time place. It all happens in our present, but the WW seems to be caught in several different "times" at once. And the attitude to education seems to reflect that as well. Does any of that make sense? Potioncat (Who was joking in her previous post to this thread.) From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 30 02:14:14 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 02:14:14 -0000 Subject: New Maps Added to 'Speculative Geography' LINKS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108149 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" > wrote: > > Steve: > > Some of you may know that I posted several maps in the > > 'Speculative Geography' section of the LINKS folder. > > > > -Where in the World is Surrey? (Maps, Data, and Links) > Geoff: > You seem to have invented a whole heap of cities in your notes. The > only cities on the map would be the cities of London and > Westminster. > Asian_lovr2: Semantics; my use of the word 'cities' was a general description, not a formal definition. They are all bounded incorporated communities in which people live, generally, that's a cities even when the political system doesn't define it as such. Again, it was a generalization. I will admit that I misspelled Epsom; I wrote Epson. > Geoff: > > The choice of towns in Surrey is rather varied. I wouldn't include > Haslemere on a list of major places. Also, Croydon is a very large > and important commercial centre - Asian_lovr2: The point of this webpage was the relative location of Surrey to a reference point that most people could understand; in this case, London. The cities (or towns or villages, if you prefer) are picked as nearest city, fartherest city, and centrally located cities. Mileage was given to give people a general understanding of the boundaries of Surrey relative to London. > > Steve: > > -Where in the World is Grimmauld Place? > > (It's about a 20 minute walk from 12 Grimmauld Place to King's > > Cross Station. This is a map of London that has a 1 mile radius > > from King's Cross drawn on it. Most people have speculated that > > North of King's Cross is a likely area. Note, the road to the > > right of the SOHO district near the bottom of the map is Charing > > Cross Road. > Geoff: > (Charing Cross Road if I may correct your spelling). There was a > thread on the location of Grimmauld Place looking at the Underground > station evidence. It begins at message 83992. Asian_lovr2: It was in the very thread that you referenced where I first posted this map. The map isn't intended to mark the absolute boundaries within which Grimmauld Place could be contained. Merely to mark a 20 minute walking distance from King's Cross Station, and give people a general idea of where King's Cross was located. The reason, I mentioned ChaRing Cross Road, was again to give people another reference point. For reference, in a very indepth analysis of the architecture, street names, and general layout of Little Whinging and Privet Drive, some deep thinker concluded that it was likely in the area near Staines. I'm still searching for that thread. It was very interesting. Just some thoughts. Steve/asian_lovr2 From gelite67 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 29 23:06:22 2004 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:06:22 -0000 Subject: HBP Clues In-Reply-To: <20040729013551.64791.qmail@web21522.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108150 Angie wonders: > > The question for me would be why, then, did the Sorting Hat consider > placing Harry in SLytherin and why did it tell Harry he would have > done well in Slytherin (if he was the true heir of Gryffindor)? Brenda responds: > > Simply because of the powers transferred from LV to Harry when he tried to curse him. Angie responds: It would seem, then, that the Sorting Hat is rather easily fooled. If there is "nothing hidden in your head the Sorting Hat can't see" (SS) then it should know that Harry's "true" character would not allow him to do well in Slytherin. From eabarboza at yahoo.com Thu Jul 29 23:20:19 2004 From: eabarboza at yahoo.com (eabarboza) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:20:19 -0000 Subject: What Kreacher knew, was RE: Sirius's part In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108151 Bren now: > > Well, I have no clue if Sirius actually made a will, I don't even > know if he had that in mind. But I'm sure there are wizarding laws > of inheritence matter in case of sudden unprepared death. And > the "noble" pureblood Black family would know great deal about laws, > I'm sure. IMO there is a good chance that Kreacher knew where he > was going after Sirius was eliminated. Kreacher was quite happy when he told Harry that Sirius was not coming back. I am pretty sure that Kreacher will go back to the Malfoys. The Malfoys do have an opening for a house elf after Dobby was set free. -Erika From hubbarrk at rose-hulman.edu Thu Jul 29 23:27:42 2004 From: hubbarrk at rose-hulman.edu (Bex) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:27:42 -0000 Subject: Death and the Bad Boys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108152 Erika said: > DD knows that the only way to kill Voldemort is if Voldemort > becomes more human. I keep wondering about that line that DD told > Voldemort in OotP that goes something like "there are worse things > than death...that has always been your biggest weakness". DD said that Voldemort's greatest weakness lies in not realizing that there are some things worse than death. LV has taken years of precautions to ensure that he is immortal, so a physical death (for him) isn't completely certain. JK is hinting (through DD, as she usually does) that LV's fall will be to one of these other "things." I don't think a dementor is likely because: 1) I have my doubts about LV even having a soul anymore **Note** link below has some interesting things to say about that **End Note** 2) Do we want a creature like a dementor (embodying fear and emotional pain) with LV's soul (if he has one) in it lurking about? Yikes!!! I read somewhere that the Dark Lord will be vanquished, but Tom Riddle will survive to live with/experience the pain he has inflicted on so many (Tom isn't the Dark Lord, and the prophecy only states that [paraphrased] the Chosen One will kill the Dark Lord or vice versa.). Sounds like a plan, but I'm not sure I want any form of Voldemort running around. I personally hope he dies, so he can't come back. ~Yb P.S. This link is to the "The Changeling Hypothesis," an excellent theory by most standards, and possibly the answer to a lot of questions. It would be pretty cool if this was right. Can't wait until book 6 to find out if this is on the right track. http://www.redhen-publications.com/Changeling.html Here's the link to all of the "potterverse" publications on the same site: http://www.redhen-publications.com/Potterverse.html Enjoy! ~Yb From hubbarrk at rose-hulman.edu Thu Jul 29 23:34:01 2004 From: hubbarrk at rose-hulman.edu (Bex) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:34:01 -0000 Subject: Fudge and Harry as Gryffindor's heir In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108153 > Brenda wrote: > > the house distinction is all that > clear-cut. Some of the students appear to be more directed to one > trait, some other displaying very dualistic nature... And: > I can visualize it as a pyramid -- each vertex of the base > represents each house and the emphasized values, but as you move > higher up the distinction becomes unclear. Harry/Hermione/Ginny > certainly possess wide range of different house traits. Agreed. Percy is another good example: he is ambitious, somewhat cunning, and extremely smart, as shown by his grades. He could fit into Ravenclaw or Slytherin as well as Gryffindor. I think the key is that each house will prove the best fit for each character, and at that moment of truth when true colors shine, we'll see *why* each character landed where they did. We'll probably see Percy do something very noble in the near future, that may even involve *gasp* breaking the rules... ~Yb From abbid at carterassoc.com Thu Jul 29 23:45:21 2004 From: abbid at carterassoc.com (amdorn) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:45:21 -0000 Subject: Prophecy question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108154 Hello all, I was just at JKR's website and have found out that Neville's Birthday is not the same day as Harry's. I know that prophecy states "as the seventh month dies" and fortunately Harry's birthday is the last day of July. Which is definitely as the seventh month dies. Neville's birthday is near the end but not on the last day of the month. I have given Neville's Birthday below the spoiler space in case anyone wants to find it for themselve on her website. Does this mean that it could have been anyone whose parents defied Voldemort three times and was born after July 16th? It seems to me that the definition of that portion of the prophecy is a little vague now. Before it was obvious because the last day of the month is really when the month dies. What about the second prophecy made by Trelawney? Does this mean that the "servant" that returns to Voldemort have to be Wormtail or can it be Crouch? I don't have my book with me to double check the requirements in the second prophecy. S P O I L E R S P A C E Happy Birthday, Neville Longbottom!!! Born July 29th. Amdorn From dontask2much at yahoo.com Fri Jul 30 00:15:57 2004 From: dontask2much at yahoo.com (charme) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 20:15:57 -0400 Subject: Dark Lord reference in the prophecy Message-ID: <01e701c475ca$63a0c260$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> No: HPFGUIDX 108155 The reference to the "Dark Lord" in the prophecy has always bothered me: originally LV was refered to as He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, You-Know-Who, Voldemort, and then finally the "Dark Lord." Weird how this prophecy specifically refers to him as the "Dark Lord," isn't it? Who else does that? Snape, Fake!Moody....Death Eaters, correct? Who IS the Dark Lord, REALLY? We already know Voldemort claims that for years he was without a body and inhabited snakes, Quirrell - is it possible that when Riddle opened the Chamber originally that he himself was possessed by someone? Someone who might be Slytherin himself? What's everybody else think? From gelite67 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 29 23:37:12 2004 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:37:12 -0000 Subject: Snapes Attitude towards the Students In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108156 stephenflynn001 at y...> wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > Does anybody know if Snape has every been disciplined for the > actions > > and behaviour towards not just Harry but all the students outside > of > > Slytherin. It seems ridiculous that a person with his temperment > and > > obvious chip on his shoulder should be responsible for childrens > > development. > > > > SF > > sad1199 replies: > I don't remember Snape ever being disciplined. But, then again, I > don't remember ANY students going to the proper authorities about > him. The only students he is purposely worse than nasty to are Harry > and Neville. Angie adds: Snape was particularly vicious to Hermione when her teeth grew abnormally large from a curse Malfoy put on Hermione and Snape said he couldn't see any difference. That's just plain cruel. The students shouldn't have to report him. DD seems to know everything else that goes on. Between the pictures, the ghosts, and DD's ability to be invisible, as well as his knowledge of Snape and of things in general, I just can't see how DD doesn't know about Snape's viciousness. Snape may be excellent with potions and may be a true DD supporter, but unless his nastiness is a cover for something else to which we are not yet privvy, he shouldn't be allowed to teach. Maybe we are to assume that DD brought Snape into HW for a very good reason which has yet to be revealed. Which leads me to wonder what Snape's profession was before he was a teacher? From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jul 30 03:16:33 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 03:16:33 -0000 Subject: Happy Birthday, Neville Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108157 Quick, go look. On JKR's site the calendar says the 29th is Neville's birthday! I checked on the Lexicon and didn't see a date for him....so someone go be a witness! Potioncat (Ok, so tell me everyone else knew that a long time ago!) From angellslin at yahoo.com.hk Fri Jul 30 03:24:22 2004 From: angellslin at yahoo.com.hk (angellslin) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 03:24:22 -0000 Subject: Happy Birthday, Neville In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108158 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Quick, go look. On JKR's site the calendar says the 29th is > Neville's birthday! I checked on the Lexicon and didn't see a date > for him....so someone go be a witness! > > Potioncat (Ok, so tell me everyone else knew that a long time ago!) But the DD said Neville and Harry are of same birthday, i.e. July 31. From snow15145 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 30 03:30:09 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 03:30:09 -0000 Subject: Happy Birthday, Neville In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108159 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Quick, go look. On JKR's site the calendar says the 29th is > Neville's birthday! I checked on the Lexicon and didn't see a date > for him....so someone go be a witness! > > Potioncat (Ok, so tell me everyone else knew that a long time ago!) Snow: Just went to the site and this is what I copied and pasted. Section: Happy Birthday 30 July Neville Longbottom Not another booboo... I'm going to have to make a bandaid for all the many bloops JKR has made on this site:(:[::]:) Snow From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jul 30 03:38:04 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 03:38:04 -0000 Subject: Prophecy question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108160 Amdorn wrote: I have given Neville's Birthday below the spoiler space > in case anyone wants to find it for themselve on her website. Does > this mean that it could have been anyone whose parents defied > Voldemort three times and was born after July 16th? It seems to me > that the definition of that portion of the prophecy is a little vague > now. Before it was obvious because the last day of the month is > really when the month dies. > snip >> potioncat: Hi, you posted about this before I did, but I read your post after I made a post. Can't believe no one else saw this today! And I caught it as the 29th day died!(2330) Being of a similar mind as JKR as to numbers...I always took "as the 7th month dies" to mean at the end of the month, which to me is anytime during the last few days. I would think most people take it to mean the very last day. Perhaps LV thought Harry was the more likely candidate because his birthday was on the very last day. Potioncat From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jul 30 03:40:22 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 03:40:22 -0000 Subject: Happy Birthday, Neville In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108161 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snow15145" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" > wrote: > > Quick, go look. On JKR's site the calendar says the 29th is > > Neville's birthday! I checked on the Lexicon and didn't see a date > > for him....so someone go be a witness! > > > > Potioncat (Ok, so tell me everyone else knew that a long time ago!) > > Snow: > > Just went to the site and this is what I copied and pasted. > > Section: Happy Birthday > 30 July > Neville Longbottom > > Not another booboo... I'm going to have to make a bandaid for all the > many bloops JKR has made on this site:(:[::]:) > Potioncat: It was clearly the 29th on the calendar when I saw it....Oh! I know, Alice had an incredibly long labor, taking 2 days, and chewed gum to help her through it! From snow15145 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 30 03:40:30 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 03:40:30 -0000 Subject: Happy Birthday, Neville In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108162 > Snow: > > Just went to the site and this is what I copied and pasted. > > Section: Happy Birthday > 30 July > Neville Longbottom > > Not another booboo... I'm going to have to make a bandaid for all the > many bloops JKR has made on this site:(:[::]:) > > Snow Snow-Me again: Forgot to say that I looked this up on the text version site! The flash version still says the 29th! From thrennish at gmail.com Fri Jul 30 03:43:03 2004 From: thrennish at gmail.com (Thren Summers) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:43:03 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Happy Birthday, Neville In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1ee818a80407292043362b1e5e@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 108163 > Not another booboo... I'm going to have to make a bandaid for all the > many bloops JKR has made on this site:(:[::]:) > Thren: The site is updated on UK time, which at the time of update would have been the 30th there, the 29th in the US. The site reads your local time, so if it's still the 29th where you are, that's what it reads. The prophecy said 'as the seventh month dies', meaning the end of July, which could be any of the last few days. But, the 30th it is. *throws confetti* -- "Whatever is done cannot be undone. But whatever is lost can, sometimes, be found." From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jul 30 03:48:53 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 03:48:53 -0000 Subject: 30 July Happy Birthday! Re: Happy Birthday, Neville In-Reply-To: <1ee818a80407292043362b1e5e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108164 > Thren wrote: > > The site is updated on UK time, which at the time of update would have been the 30th there, the 29th in the US. The site reads your local time, so if it's still the 29th where you are, that's what it reads. > > The prophecy said 'as the seventh month dies', meaning the end of > July, which could be any of the last few days. But, the 30th it is. > *throws confetti* > >Potioncat: The very same thing happened to British friends of mine whose child was born in the US and of course the grandparetns were phoned "at once" causing a continuing argument over the correct date! 30th it is! From snow15145 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 30 03:50:05 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 03:50:05 -0000 Subject: Happy Birthday, Neville In-Reply-To: <1ee818a80407292043362b1e5e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108165 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Thren Summers wrote: > > Not another booboo... I'm going to have to make a bandaid for all the > > many bloops JKR has made on this site:(:[::]:) > > > > Thren: > > The site is updated on UK time, which at the time of update would have > been the 30th there, the 29th in the US. The site reads your local > time, so if it's still the 29th where you are, that's what it reads. > > The prophecy said 'as the seventh month dies', meaning the end of > July, which could be any of the last few days. But, the 30th it is. > *throws confetti* > > -- > "Whatever is done cannot be undone. But whatever is lost can, > sometimes, be found." Snow: Thanks so much for clearing that up,Thren! There have been so many suspicions lately about the accuracy of the site, ever since the wand mix up. From sad1199 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 30 04:07:26 2004 From: sad1199 at yahoo.com (sad1199) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 04:07:26 -0000 Subject: Death and the Bad Boys. was: JKR Speaks: Arthur Weasly will NOT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108167 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > Mandy here: > > Really? Draco too? I see Draco surviving but severely punished. > > > > Voldemort 100% dead. > > Bellatrix 100% dead > > Snape 100% dead. You know it got to happen. > > > > > > > Alla: > > > > > > Snape.... Hmm. I still did not give up on the possibility of his > survival and yes, Bella is toasted, absolutely. sad1199 replies: Am I the only Snape lover on this site? If I thought it would help I would personally get on my knees and beg JKR to let him live. I think that IF he dies (and I am totally against it!) it will be a heroic death protecting Harry at the very end of it all. As mean or abusive, awful, hurtful, immature, nasty... he has been to Harry he has still protected and helped him when he was needed. He obviously has Dumbledore's complete trust. The only thing that really bugs me is the occulmency thing where he let Harry give up on it. Again, his immaturity about his anger at James came shining through and Snape definitely needs to find a way to get over it. My cousin is like that, though, she is 38 years old and she still blames her parents for everything that has ever gone wrong in her life. All she (and Snape) have to do is be an adult and make the changes needed to improve their lives. Do I see that happening? No. But, I am hopeful and I still see Snape alive at the end. Have A Happy Love Filled Day. sad1199 From averyhaze at hotmail.com Fri Jul 30 03:43:51 2004 From: averyhaze at hotmail.com (onnanokata) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 03:43:51 -0000 Subject: Happy Birthday, Neville In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108168 "potioncat" wrote: Quick, go look. On JKR's site the calendar says the 29th is Neville's birthday! I checked on the Lexicon and didn't see a date for him....so someone go be a witness! Potioncat (Ok, so tell me everyone else knew that a long time ago!) angellslin wrote: But the DD said Neville and Harry are of same birthday, i.e. July 31. Dharma replies: Actually the prophecy says: "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches, born to those that have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies " And then Dumbledore tells Harry: "...Sybil's prophecy could have applied to two wizard boys, both born at the end of July that year " Neville could have been born on the 29th or 30th, according to Dumbledore's account. He never gives Harry an actual date. From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Jul 30 04:24:23 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 04:24:23 -0000 Subject: Snape's part in death of Sirius - Revised Time In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108169 > Neri: > > First, lets clarify one thing. Snape understood Harry had a vision > from Voldy's mind: > -------------------------------------------------------- > OotP, Ch. 37 > 'Kreacher told me last night,' said Dumbledore. 'You see, when > you gave Professor Snape that cryptic warning, he realised that you > had had a vision of Sirius trapped in the bowels of the Department of > Mysteries. > -------------------------------------------------------- > But first lets consider the real situation. Pippin: Um, yes. Harry has been having visions of the Department of Mysteries for months. Now he's had another. In this one, Sirius was being held captive and Harry's upset about it. Snape checks immediately and finds, no doubt to his sardonic dismay, that Sirius is not being held captive. Snape should certainly report this to Dumbledore when he becomes available -- it's not Snape's fault that Dumbledore is incommunicado. But cause for worry? As far as Snape knows, and Harry tried very hard to give him an image of what was in his mind, the vision was little different from any of the others except that it has Potter upset. But that's a good thing, from Snape's point of view. Harry's been much too casual about the vision thing so far. That Snape should only become worried when Harry fails to return from the Forest is perfectly sensible. The Forest *is* part of the grounds: PS/SS ch 7: "First years should note that the forest in the grounds is forbidden to all pupils. And a few of our older students would do well to remember that as well." Snape tells us that, "the walls and grounds of Hogwarts are guarded by many ancient spells and charms to ensure the bodily and mental safety of those who dwell within them" ch 24 OOP [emphasis mine] Snape goes on to explain that because of these protections, The Dark Lord can only put thoughts into Harry's head when Harry's mind is relaxed and vulnerable--not likely to be the case while he's with Umbridge! She's no legilimens, obviously. As long as Harry is on the grounds, even in the forest, Snape would think he is reasonably safe, Aragog is an XXXXX monster but there's no canon that Snape knows about him. "Rumours that a colony of Acromantula has been established in Scotland are unconfirmed." FBAWTFT He doesn't know about Grawp either. We know it's not a full moon because Lupin is not transformed, so no fear of werewolves. Aside from the centaurs, and Snape has no more reason to think they will harm Harry than Hermione does, there's no canon that there's anything else in the Forest that a competent wizard couldn't cope with--and Harry is a competent wizard, even Snape would have to admit that. Harry has taken his OWLs, and is presumably no longer in danger of having his wand snapped if he's expelled. Harry is now almost three years older than Fred and George were when they got that warning from DD. He's not an ickle firstie anymore. It's true he didn't have his wand when he went in, but the DA is right behind him...they'll catch up to Harry before Snape could, and certainly before Sirius or Lupin could. The DA won't be attacked by centaurs, and Harry won't blast them unconscious. Harry has wandered out of bounds before, with the knowledge and tacit consent of the Headmaster. Why should Snape panic about that? Maybe, if Potter were off the grounds, but as far as Snape knows, he isn't. The last time he went roaring off to Potter's rescue (in PoA) he got knocked out for his troubles, and told by none other than Dumbledore that there was no need to trouble Harry or Hermione further. Well, Snape can take a hint. Neri: > Even if it is, any wizard can apparate near the forest and then use a broom to scan it and track anybody in it, exactly as Harry did when he followed Snape and Quirrell on his Nimbus in SS/PS. This wizard can also disguise himself with a disillusionment charm, same as Moody used on Harry in the beginning of OotP, so nobody would see him. This is true for Lupin and Sirius, who could easily track Harry in the forest without Umbridge seeing them if only they were notified about the situation. This is also true for any DE who wanted to kidnap Harry. < Pippin: Very imaginative! But there is no canon that disillusionment charms work on Centaurs. There is canon that they can see many things that humans cannot. And they're always watching the sky. "Ruddy stargazers" Hagrid called them. Neri: Lets see what were the Order's priorities in this case: > > > 1. Get Harry immediately to DD (McGonagall does this without > hesitation). Pippin: Okay. What do you think she'd have done if DD had made himself unplottable and she knew he'd be back in touch in about six hours? Neri: 2. Ascertain that Harry indeed had a vision from LV's mind ("How did you see it?") Pippin: Snape need not doubt that Harry has had a vision. He's *quite* familiar with this ability of Harry's, thank you very much. Neri: > 4. Test that Harry is not possessed by LV at this very moment ("in essence divided", and note that DD performs the test even BEFORE he gets an answer from the portraits that Arthur was indeed attacked).< Pippin: How can Snape do this? Isn't he shut out of Dumbledore's office along with everyone else? Neri: > 5. Divert Umbridge (DD to McGonagall: "tell her any story"). Pippin: Umbridge has been diverted, into the forest, and told a story, concerning the weapon. She does not know that Harry has been having visions, and Harry clearly understands that she shouldn't find out. That was the information Dumbledore was concerned to keep from her (which applies to Neri's point 7 also.) Neri: > 6. Alert HQ to the situation (I'm not discussing rescuing Arthur because it is not relevant to Snape's case). Pippin: It is this delay we are talking about. But if McGonagall hadn't been able to reach Dumbledore at once, who would she have consulted? It's possible that you are right, and Snape waited as long as he dared because he didn't really care what happened to Harry. But it's also possible that he waited as long as he dared because he didn't trust anyone at HQ except DD. Neri: > 7. Get Harry to HQ (and notice DD didn't have to do it just because Arthur was attacked. He could have sent Harry back to his bed. But he wanted Harry out of Umbridge's reach). < Pippin: Also out of *Dumbledore's* reach. The great fear he had was that Voldemort would force him to attack Harry. Note also that despite this fear, and that Umbridge is on her way, he waits for Phineas to find out if "the coast is clear" before sendingHarry to GP. *That's* significant. Surely with Harry's safety at stake, Dumbledore wasn't worried about mere politeness, or about catching Sirius with his pants down. What, or who, was Dumbledore afraid of? What it comes down to is that Dumbledore should have been notified immediately. I have no argument with that. But we have no canon that either Snape or anyone at HQ was able to do that. They wouldn't have had to leave someone behind with a message if they could have contacted him directly. Wizards, as JKR informs us on her website, can make themselves unplottable if they don't want to be found. As the third most wanted wizard in the WW after Sirius and Voldemort himself, Dumbledore has reason to make himself scarce. Voldemort knows this, he knows when the attack is going to be, and since he's probably trying to keep track of Dumbledore himself he can easily pick a time when he thinks Dumbledore will be absent, particulary if he's getting information from within the Order about when he's expected to be there. Pippin From garybec101 at comcast.net Fri Jul 30 04:25:31 2004 From: garybec101 at comcast.net (garybec101 at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 04:25:31 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Prophecy question Message-ID: <073020040425.5019.4109CDBA000C537E0000139B2200748184CECFCE0C0A0D979D0E09@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 108170 Amdorn writes; I was just at JKR's website and have found out that Neville's Birthday is not the same day as Harry's. I know that prophecy states "as the seventh month dies" and fortunately Harry's birthday is the last day of July. Which is definitely as the seventh month dies. Neville's birthday is near the end but not on the last day of the month. I have given Neville's Birthday below the spoiler space in case anyone wants to find it for themselve on her website. Does this mean that it could have been anyone whose parents defied Voldemort three times and was born after July 16th? It seems to me that the definition of that portion of the prophecy is a little vague now. Before it was obvious because the last day of the month is really when the month dies. What about the second prophecy made by Trelawney? Does this mean that the "servant" that returns to Voldemort have to be Wormtail or can it be Crouch? I don't have my book with me to double check the requirements in the second prophecy. S P O I L E R S P A C E Happy Birthday, Neville Longbottom!!! Born July 29th. Amdorn Becki replies; I was thinking the same thing about Nevilles birthday. That was aways a burning question with me, when was his birthday? I always wondered why it was never brought up, but now we know. That being said, perhaps that makes it more logical that LV would go after Harry and not Neville (although he may have just gotten to Harry first). In regards to the 2nd prophecy; "The Dark Lord lies alone and friendless, abandoned by his followers. His servant had been chained these twelve years. Tonight, before midnight, the servant will break free and set out to rejoin his master. The Dark Lord will rise again with his servant's aid, greater and more terrible than he ever was. Tonight...before midnight...the servant... will set out...to rejoin...his master..." (PoA p324 AM) If it didn't clearly state that it was going to happen that very night before midnight, it sounds like it could possibly be talking about Crouch, but at this point, Crouch was in no condition to help. Happy Birthday Neville Becki, (who savors every little tidbit Jo throughs out at us) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hpfgu_elves at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 30 05:27:51 2004 From: hpfgu_elves at yahoo.co.uk (hpfgu_elves) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 05:27:51 -0000 Subject: Notice of moved thread Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108171 Esteemed List-Muggles: The thread that was generated in response to the movie-discussion ADMIN has been moved to HPfGU-Feedback. Please confine all discussion of list policy to -Feedback. Cheers! --The List Elvses http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hpfgu-feedback/ From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Jul 30 06:48:28 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 06:48:28 -0000 Subject: New Maps Added to 'Speculative Geography' LINKS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108173 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: Steve: > For reference, in a very in depth analysis of the architecture, street > names, and general layout of Little Whinging and Privet Drive, some > deep thinker concluded that it was likely in the area near Staines. > I'm still searching for that thread. It was very interesting. Geoff: The same thought crossed my mind last night, that someone had placed it in the north western corner of Surrey, near Heathrow and north of the river - this is the section of Surrey which was Middlesex until 1965. I dug around in my own personal archive of posts and found a reference I made months ago - the place to look is in the Lexicon. There is a well-researched article there discussing the location of Little Whinging. From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Jul 30 06:55:00 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 06:55:00 -0000 Subject: New Maps Added to 'Speculative Geography' LINKS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108174 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > Geoff: > > You seem to have invented a whole heap of cities in your notes. The > > only cities on the map would be the cities of London and > > Westminster. > > > > > Asian_lovr2: > > Semantics; my use of the word 'cities' was a general description, not > a formal definition. They are all bounded incorporated communities in > which people live, generally, that's a cities even when the political > system doesn't define it as such. Again, it was a generalization. Geoff: I should have included this with my last post but overlooked it. In the UK, the definition of city is much tighter. From my dictionary... "a large town, in particular (Brit) a town created a city by charter and containing a cathedral." This is not quite true today, as there are modern cathedrals (Guildford in Surrey for example) which do not have that status and a number of towns have been upgraded to city status recently (Sunderland, Brighton, Swindon etc.) to mark special occasions such as the Millennium and the Golden Jubilee but only after lobbying etc. Therefore, being a city is a jealously guarded privilege, not for the likes of Haslemere or Epsom (close to which I taught for 30 years). :-)) From patientx3 at aol.com Fri Jul 30 07:36:15 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 07:36:15 -0000 Subject: Neville and potions- an unpopular opinion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108175 Irene wrote: >I'm glad that someone else has a contrary opinion to the > majority vote that Snape should be fired, arrested and then fired >again, > preferably with a firing squad. Alla replied: >> I don't know about others, but till the books end, I most certainly don't want Snape to be fired. But rest assured, I want him to suffer A LOT. Yes, I am that blood firsty about that character. (my way of caring) :o) If his sufferings will include same undeserved abuse, humiliation, mental assault he put Harry through, I will be one happy camper. I know, it ain't gonna happen, unfortunately. << HunterGreen: I wouldn't count on that. The evidence points to him being a spy on one of the cruelest and most dangerous men out there. IMO, at some point before the end of the series Voldemort is going to find out (or if he already knows, he's going to stop using Snape), and he is going to have some sort of revenge. I am of the mind that Snape will most likely not survive book seven. As for *suffering*, how do you know he hasn't suffered already and that's why he has such a poisonous personality? At age eleven he already knew more dark curses than most seventh-years, why is that? Why was he SO fascinated with that? We know that at least in his fifth year he was unpopular, and the only person to come to his aid when he was being attacked by two other students was someone he wasn't even friends with (in fact, appeared to have contempt for). And there's the issue of his dealings with Voldemort, which at the very least includes SOME reason why he did such an about-face and decided to turn his back on the DEs, which could have easily led to his own death. Snape is already an unhappy person, there's not much IMO that could be done to him that would make a big impression. From xtremesk8ergurl2 at aol.com Fri Jul 30 04:45:48 2004 From: xtremesk8ergurl2 at aol.com (xtremesk8ergurl2 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 00:45:48 EDT Subject: Snape's Attitude towards the Students Message-ID: <8d.10eb5627.2e3b2c7c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 108176 Angie adds: >> Snape was particularly vicious to Hermione when her teeth grew abnormally large from a curse Malfoy put on Hermione and Snape said he couldn't see any difference. That's just plain cruel. Snape may be excellent with potions and may be a true DD supporter, but unless his nastiness is a cover for something else to which we are not yet privvy, he shouldn't be allowed to teach. Maybe we are to assume that DD brought Snape into HW for a very good reason which has yet to be revealed. << I think that moment of Snape's was unusually cruel, even for Snape. I look a little bit like Hermione, I'm buck-toothed and bushy-haired. I think the main reason they keep him is because he's so good with potions. I think there's cruel teachers everywhere, and it's sort of just part of life. I've had teachers call me ugly, retarded, a side show circus freak, and encourage other students to bully me. It's not right, but it's part of life. -xtremesk8ergurl2 From amphibi_pro at yahoo.com Fri Jul 30 07:53:27 2004 From: amphibi_pro at yahoo.com (amphibi_pro) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 07:53:27 -0000 Subject: The Titlings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108177 SSSusan "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > Hi there, Chris. Welcome to posting! > > I have a question about this. Can you say more about Sirius being > *related* to Harry? I guess I don't see it. Sirius was not a > relative of James or Lily (that we know of); he was merely chosen > to be Harry's godfather. Perhaps you're using "related to" in a way > different than I'm taking it, though. Could you expand on this a > little more? Hi, Susan The relation that I was mentioned doesn't exactly have to be blood related. Some can say that the bond you have with your best friends can be tighter than with your family, don't you agree? And Harry himself think Sirius to be more than a godfather, but perhaps, as his uncle or an older brother. Love and best friends can be considered also to be a relation on some families. However, maybe in the wizarding world, when someone's chosen to be a godfather there are some kind of ceremony which the person gave up an amount of his blood to his godchild... Just a thought, "chrisp" From patientx3 at aol.com Fri Jul 30 08:24:28 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 08:24:28 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy - VERY LONG In-Reply-To: <004401c47557$86247fc0$4ac2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108178 DuffyPoo wrote: >> At the end of July LV finds out about the birth of both Harry Potter and Neville Longbottom. They both fit the prophecy. [snip] Along comes Wormtail and spills the Potters' secret. [snip] (There is no doubt in my mind he is planning to off both kids, just to be safe. No point getting *the one* and finding out too late it was the other one.) [snip] Harry is considered to be *the one.* By DD, by the WW, by LV, and by the keeper of the Prophecies who changes the card from under the prophecy from Dark Lord & (?) to Dark Lord & Harry Potter. But.... What if DD is wrong? He believes it and because be believes it, we believe it too. We believe, because DD believes, that LV has marked HP as *the one* by the curse that rebounded, leaving the scar. We believe, because DD believes, that LV *chose* HP because they are both half-bloods. But what if those beliefs are wrong? << HunterGreen: Those are very good points. I think you may have a point about Voldemort *choosing* Harry, its much more likely that Voldemort only went after Harry first because Harry's parents were the ones who chose a traitor as their secret-keeper. Its not as though Voldemort was standing on a fork in the road, and one way was Harry and one way was Neville (and even then, he'd still plan to double back and kill the other one after he was finished with the first, I can't see Voldemort deciding to only kill *one of them*). DuffyPoo: >> If LV went to the Longbottoms first and killed Neville, we would *know* beyond any doubt, that HP is *the one,* but because HP is attacked first, and LV is *vanquished* we only assume HP is the one. Like everyone else assumes he is the one because the curse rebounded. LV believes HP is the one because the curse rebounded and sent him into vapourness. Circumstantial evidence. [snip] If Lily hadn't been there to protect Harry that night, if she had stepped aside as LV told her to, HP may have been killed, and then LV would have moved on to Neville. << HunterGreen: This is what I wrestled with when I first read the end of OotP, the prophecy is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Voldemort is only trying to kill Harry because of the prophecy, and Harry only fulfills his end of the prophecy because Voldemort tried to kill him. Perhaps the prophecy was PART of itself, sort of like Harry somehow being able to save himself in PoA. That doesn't make it any less true though. *Harry* is the one who survived the attack on Godric's Hollow that night, and even though he played almost no part in it, it was technically *him* that made the curse rebound. Lily set it up, but *Harry* is the one who rebounded the curse. DuffyPoo: >>Did Lily know that by sacrificing herself she would protect her son? Probably. Did she know the curse would rebound off the protection the way it did - probably not. << HunterGreen: I think she did. I wonder if there was some sort of spell or charm she had to use beforehand to make this work. For some reason it being just 'automatic' magic seems a little shaky. Lily purposely stepped in his way and said clearly 'kill me instead', which makes me believe she was trying to activate the charm. According to Moody in GoF, this is the *only* time this has happened. In the history of the WW, there has to have been another time someone had a reason to kill a child and the parent stepped forward to try to 'take their place' so to speak, but this is the ONLY time an AK has backfired. As other people have said in a recent thread, James essentially did the same thing for Harry, but no credit is given to him, and its odd that Dumbledore knew all about it even though Harry and Voldemort were the only ones alive when it happened. I think it was a plan they had, something that Lily decided beforehand in the case that Voldemort did find them. DuffyPoo: >>[snip]Fast forward to the end of the story. HP and NL are battling it out against DEs at the end of book 7. LV turns up to get HP, Neville casts some spell at him and POOF - vanquished. They all turn to Neville and say "It was YOU, not Harry!" Neville's never had to live with the stigma attached to being the one so had nothing to live up to. He was just trying to protect Harry like he was there for him, to the end, in the DoM. DD's thinking "Holy crap, I had the wrong kid!" << HunterGreen: I very, very, much doubt its Neville. I don't think its any 'special skill' that Harry has that enables him to vanquish Voldemort, but rather circumstance. Had Alice been the one to die and give her son the blood protection then perhaps it would be Neville, but that ship sank somewhere around the time of GoF. At the end of Goblet of Fire, Voldemort uses Harry's blood in his re- birthing ceremony, which is why he is able to touch (and by implication hurt or kill), Harry after it is through. However, Dumbledore still sees fit to send Harry back to the Dursley's after school ends. Why? Because the protection extends to other people as well. In the beginning of OotP, when Vernon catches Harry outside the window and starts throttling him, what's described as an 'electric shock' goes through Harry and forces Vernon to let him go. Could that be the protection kicking in? And this is where the problem comes in. If Harry is protected from *everyone*, then so is Voldemort, since he has Harry's blood. But they aren't, for some reason, protected from each other. Therefore if anyone but Harry used an AK against Voldemort it would just rebound (and most likely kill the person unless they had performed some weird immortality experiment like Voldemort had). Same goes with Harry. I'm not sure if Voldemort really understands this (he asks Dumbledore why he's not using a killing curse, but on the other hand he tried to bait Dumbledore into using it against Harry), but I think Dumbledore does. All that aside, I just don't see how any part of the prophecy refers to Neville except for his birthday. He has not been 'marked as equal', he doesn't appear to have any special powers, and he doesn't have specific connections to Voldemort the way Harry does (such as the scar and the blood). Another thing, would Harry have been able to get the prophecy if it wasn't about him? Did the DoM employees put the curse on it saying that only "*Harry* and Voldemort" would be able to get it, or only "the ones the prophecy refers to"? From amphibi_pro at yahoo.com Fri Jul 30 08:12:14 2004 From: amphibi_pro at yahoo.com (amphibi_pro) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 08:12:14 -0000 Subject: The Titlings In-Reply-To: <005301c47578$34339ea0$bfc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108179 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cathy Drolet" wrote: > It wasn't the Goblet of Fire that brought Harry to LV... 'twas the Triwizard Cup. The Goblet of Fire was the thing that the students who wanted to enter the Triwizard Tournament had to put their names in. It was shut back in its casket on October 31st after the fire went out...after the names were spewed out of it. ChrisP here: Lol, yes, yes my bad, I'm sorry. I haven't read it again for a while so I mixed up. However, forgive my stubbornness, it eventually bring Harry to Voldemort. After all, Harry won't be able to touch the triwizard cup unless he get through the goblet first. Although, I wonder why did Jo use the goblet of fire as the title when it's role merely to shout Harry's name? Maybe 'cause it was the start point, just like sorcerer stone? > DuffyPoo now: > So who do we have to deal with...new in the third book: > > Stan Shunpike - Knight bus conductor > Ernie Prang - Knight bus driver > Florean Fortescue - owner of the ice cream shop in Diagon Alley > Remus Lupin - DADA professor > Sibyll Trelawney - Divination professor > Peter Pettigrew - traitor > Madam Rosemerta - Landlady of the Three Broomsticks > Cedric Diggory - Captain of the Hufflepuff team - dead now though > Cho Chang - Ravenclaw seeker > Roger Davies - Ravenclaw Captain > Waldon Macnair - MoM executioner & DE > Some old committee member with no name > A boatload of Dementors > No first years are listed by name because Harry & Hermione missed > the sorting that year > > > If JKR truly means Prince as being male...that leaves out Trelawney, > Chang and Madam Rosemerta. Of the lot that's left, Roger Davies and > Remus Lupin? Lupin has already made a comeback in OotP. chrisp now: No, I don't think HBP is on the list you made. Again, if it is a pattern, then HBP should be mentioned as an insignificant character. Who would have thought that young Sirius who gave his flying bicycle to Hagrid would one day turn out to be Harry's godfather? Sigh, too bad the book is not in my possession now, I want to search it myself.. anyway, good job on the list. From patientx3 at aol.com Fri Jul 30 09:03:09 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 09:03:09 -0000 Subject: Snapes Attitude towards the Students In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108180 stephenflynn001 at y...> wrote: >> Does anybody know if Snape has every been disciplined for the actions and behaviour towards not just Harry but all the students outside of Slytherin. It seems ridiculous that a person with his temperment and obvious chip on his shoulder should be responsible for childrens development. sad1199 replied: > I don't remember Snape ever being disciplined. But, then again, I > don't remember ANY students going to the proper authorities about > him. The only students he is purposely worse than nasty to are > Harry > and Neville. Angie added: >> Snape was particularly vicious to Hermione when her teeth grew abnormally large from a curse Malfoy put on Hermione and Snape said he couldn't see any difference. That's just plain cruel. << HunterGreen: Cruel, yes, but something he needs to be *disciplined* for? Probably not. First of all, we cannot judge Snape's teaching by our own standards, Hogwarts has a considerably much more old-fashioned approach to teaching. And on top of that, they don't seem to be overly aware or concerned about mental health. And secondly, even with my VERY different school-experience, I have heard teachers make comments about students before, and I never thought 'ooh, they could get in trouble for that...', because I doubt they would have. Other than the comment about Hermione's teeth, is there any other particular *incident* he needs to be punished for? Because it all seems to be general nastiness to me, which is not pleasant for Harry, but nothing he can get Snape in trouble for (and he wouldn't, anyway, that's not really Harry's style). >> The students shouldn't have to report him. DD seems to know everything else that goes on. Between the pictures, the ghosts, and DD's ability to be invisible, as well as his knowledge of Snape and of things in general, I just can't see how DD doesn't know about Snape's viciousness. << I don't doubt that he knows. I think that it isn't the way *he* would teach a class, but it gets the job done. The students are learning, no one is getting scarred for life, and he doesn't (as far as we know) seem to be breaking any WW teaching rules (if there even are any). >> Snape may be excellent with potions and may be a true DD supporter, but unless his nastiness is a cover for something else to which we are not yet privvy, he shouldn't be allowed to teach. << I can't see any reason why he shouldn't be "allowed to teach". Perhaps if he was teaching first graders, but these are eleven-year- olds and up, and they are learning a very precise skill -- one that could kill people if done wrong -- and they are going to enter what can be a very difficult world to get along in (in many ways harder than the muggle-world). Teachers are not there to coddle the students, they aren't there to pamper them, and since this is 11 and older, they shouldn't need constant encouragement for *everything* they do like 5-8 year-olds need. Not everyone is nice, Snape happens to be one of those people. Not good qualities perhaps for a nanny or a counselor, but for a teacher of mainly teenagers, not something that disqualifies him. >> Maybe we are to assume that DD brought Snape into HW for a very good reason which has yet to be revealed.<< I think the reason is pretty obvious. Not only is Snape an excellent potion-maker (are there many potions teachers out there? there may not be), but Snape is handy to have around, as he has shown many times. >> Which leads me to wonder what Snape's profession was before he was a teacher? << Potion-maker for the DEs, most likely. Although I guess he'd have to have a 'reputable' job, perhaps he was just a potion-maker. Someone working for St. Mungos, or for shops in Diagon Alley (well, with Snape it was more likely Knockturn Alley). From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Fri Jul 30 09:39:06 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 05:39:06 -0400 Subject: What evidence do we have againt Lucius? Message-ID: <001401c47619$0efce050$87c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 108181 Mandy said: "Tonks and Shaklebolt both work secretly for the Order whilst holding down ministry jobs. Tonks as an Auror, and Shaklebolt as head of the search for Sirius Black. They are both spying on the Ministry for DD. Remember the trouble Arthur and Shaklebolt went to keep their relationship quiet so as not to jeopardize Shaklebolt position in the Ministry? Would DD want the Ministry to know he had Order members inside the Ministry spying? DD may not care at this point, but he could also just as easily want to keep their position within the Order quiet, and simply refuse to let them testify. " DuffyPoo now: At this point though, the Order no longer needs to be secret. LV will remember the Order from of old. He knows DD, he knows DD's got the old gang back together. I don't think the Order, during VWI was operating in secret from the MoM. It was this time, for a year, because the head of the Ministry, our dear Mr. Fudge, didn't want to believe the truth about LV having returned to bodily form. Hard to miss now that he's seen LV with his own eyes. One other person I've forgotten in all this is Snape. He knows why Harry & Co have gone to the DoM and what they expected to find there. He may or may not have known the DEs were planning something. Mandy: "Any competent defense lawyer could destroy the testimony" DuffyPoo again: After all we've read about trials and, um, lack of trials, you think there is going to be an attourney present? Think back to the pensieve scene when HP was in DD's office. None of those people: Karkaroff, Bagman, the Lestranges or Crouch, had any type of defence counsel on the scene. It was the Wizengamot or some such only. They know the Ministry's side of the story, they hear the accused's side of the story and make a decision. Or Crouch made the decision himself. I'm not expecting any grand trial that HP or anyone else has to take part in. The DEs are already in Azkaban after all. Let's not forget that Sirius was chucked into Azkaban without a trial, and so was our friend Hagrid. Hagrid had only needed to be removed from the school to prevent the attacks, if it was he that was causing them. Instead he was put into Azkaban as a 'precaution.' We've still got Moody, and like I said before, he may be paranoid but I expect there are enough people left in the ministry who respect him and what he did in the previous war, that they will listen to his testimony. We've still got DD who put the anti-disapparition jinx on Malfoy and the rest.. We've still got Williamson and Dawlish who went down to the DoM, or were ordered to at least, and apparently must have found them there or they wouldn't be sitting in Azkaban now. We've got the simple fact that, while those kids may not have been supposed to be in the DoM, the DEs weren't supposed to be in there either and they were caught there. And we've still got Fudge who, I would presume had seen them before they were shuffled off to Azkaban, and has certainly now seen LV for himself. I also seem to remember quite a flood of witches and wizards arriving at the MoM as HP was coming round after the LV possession. Unless the DE's are somehow evaporated to Azkaban, some of them at least must have seen the departure, or removal from the DoM at least. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Fri Jul 30 09:49:12 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 05:49:12 -0400 Subject: Can Lucius Talk His Way Out of This One? Message-ID: <002301c4761a$786e7a70$87c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 108182 Magda said: "It's all different after OOTP. Did you hear the way Dumbledore was openly ordering Fudge around in front of the other MoM employees and Aurors at the end of the fight? "You will do this....you will do that..." Dumbledore is back in the saddle now and not caring if Fudge looks humiliated as a result." DuffyPoo now: And one thing I've forgotten in all my ramblings about this subject: what, exactly, did DD tell Fudge in that precious half hour he said he could spare him that evening? About, but not the wording of, the prophecy concerning HP? About how HP happened to be lured there? About the connection between HP and LV? About the restart of the Order? Will we ever find out? Was it something DD said that 'made Fudge flee the ministry?' Does DD have something on Fudge that we don't yet know about to make Fudge flee? Hmm.. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Fri Jul 30 09:50:36 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 09:50:36 -0000 Subject: The Titlings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108183 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amphibi_pro" wrote: > SS,GF : an item that brought Harry face to face with Voldemort > CS,OP : a place or group of people in which the people, if not pros, against the pureblood idealism > PA : a man that's related to Harry > > If this pattern is true and I don't make mistake on drawing the > conclusion, then this halfblood prince would surely has some relation with Harry also. > Hi Chris I am Valky, You make some very good deductions here, and its a new pondering for me, I always love a new challenge. I see how you are linking the titles as representing like:like and it has inspired me to look deeper into the titles to see other patterns. How about Opposites: left:right in terms of which way Harry goes in the book towards the title or the title towards him. there we have- SS/PS(Harry towards): POA (Toward Harry) good side : bad side OOtP : COS which leaves HBP the opposite of GOF and as another poster has mentioned the Goblet of Fire shouts Harrys name. So does Harry shout the HBP's name somewhere, perhaps. Maybe, but that is a bit thin to be going on. What we need is more one to one patterns. Now I have opposites off my chest I will concentrate on another because this could turn out to be an especially intriguing thread. Thanks for the kickstart, Chris. And Welcome! Best to All Valky From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Fri Jul 30 10:04:11 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 06:04:11 -0400 Subject: Death and the Bad Boys Message-ID: <002c01c4761c$902d8280$87c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 108184 Erika said: "DD knows that the only way to kill Voldemort is if Voldemort becomes more human. That is why I think he had that look of triumph at the end of OotP. " DuffyPoo now: We also have LV's own words. First he told his DEs '...but still, I was alive. What I was, even I do not know...I , who have gone further than anybody along the path that leads to immortality. You know my goal...to conquer death. And now, I was tested, and it appeared that one or more of my experiments had worked...for I had not been killed, though the curse should have done it.' After more conversation about trying to exist and finding people to possess, etc., he talks about finding Quirrell, etc., he says 'But I was willing to embrace *mortal* life again, before chasing immortal. I set my sights lower...I would settle for my old body back again, and my old strength.' I think we have a *mortal* or at least more mortal LV that we had when he AK'd Harry. Has he had time, in his desperate search for the prophecy, to spend time on creating immortality again? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Fri Jul 30 10:08:07 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:08:07 -0000 Subject: Happy Birthday, Neville In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108185 "potioncat" : > > Quick, go look. On JKR's site the calendar says the 29th is > > Neville's birthday! I checked on the Lexicon and didn't see a > >date for him....so someone go be a witness! >Snow: > Just went to the site and this is what I copied and pasted. > > Section: Happy Birthday > 30 July > Neville Longbottom > > Not another booboo... I'm going to have to make a bandaid for all the many bloops JKR has made on this site:(:[::]:) Aggie: This is very perplexing isn't it?!? Do you think that the time zones would have anything to do with it? I don't know how these things work so not sure if this would confuse the issue. Does the site update as per BST or by the individual computer? From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Fri Jul 30 10:31:59 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:31:59 -0000 Subject: Snapes Attitude towards the Students In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108186 > Angie adds: > Snape was particularly vicious to Hermione when her teeth grew > abnormally large from a curse Malfoy put on Hermione and Snape said > he couldn't see any difference. That's just plain cruel. >>>>>>>SNIP>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Aggie: I agree that this remark *was* cruel but do you think that Hermione was affected by it? Snape knew that the curse could be rectified, that it wasn't going to be a permanent change. It was just his little 'joke', to keep in with Malfoy and cronies. As it turned out it was a blessing in disguise for Hermione, she managed to get her teeth the way she wanted them all along. From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Fri Jul 30 10:47:11 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 06:47:11 -0400 Subject: Prophecy question Message-ID: <003701c47622$9201e5a0$87c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 108187 Amdorn said: "What about the second prophecy made by Trelawney? Does this mean that the "servant" that returns to Voldemort have to be Wormtail or can it be Crouch? I don't have my book with me to double check the requirements in the second prophecy." DuffyPoo now: "The Dark Lord lies alone and friendless, abandoned by his followers. His servant has been chained these twelve years. Tonight, before midnight, the servant will break free and set out to rejoin his master. The Dark Lord will rise again with his servant's aid, greater and more terrible than ever before. Tonight...before midnight...the servant...will set out...to rejoin...his master..." (PoA) We certainly have seen that Wormtail has fulfilled most of this prophecy. Transformed to a rat before midnight, we know from the end of GoF that he rejoined LV in Albania. The only problem I see is the 'Tonight, before midnight, the servant will break free and set out to rejoin his master' if we take that literally. Crouch, Jr, may have thrown off the Imperious Curse that night, before midnight, but we don't have anything to support that he 'set out to rejoin his master' then. Every time Barty, Sr., saw that Jr. was overcoming the curse, he Imperio'd him again. He obviously wasn't in Azkaban long enough to lose his powers, we know he still has magical ability throughout GoF. Would Jr. have known where LV was in order to, say, apparate to where he was? That night, as far as we know, LV was still in Albania. That is where Worm found him, not that night, but sometime later, he had to travel as a rat, after all, and where Worm met Bertha Jorkins who went on holiday to Albania, probably in early July, as Bagman said 'She'll wander back into the office some time in October, thinking it's *still* July.' LV/Worm didn't know until they heard it from Bertha, that Barty, Jr was still alive and was out of Azkaban, living in his father's house. They came to Crouch, Jr, once LV was strong enough, via a potion made of unicorn blood and snake venom. When Crouch, Jr., under veritaserum says 'He arrived at our house near midnight. My father answered the door.' this can't be the same midnight as the one in the prophecy unless there's a BIG OLD time shift going on somewhere. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Fri Jul 30 11:05:58 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:05:58 -0000 Subject: FLOOZY 2 - Bagman In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108188 > Kneasy. <>> > Subject: Ludo Bagman - A Cause for Concern. >SNIP> > Ludo Bagman gives the impression of being a bumbling fool, making >bad decisions by ineptitude and associating with enemy supporters >through pure gullibility. Aggie: Bit like someone else really!! Fudge springs to mind and I doubt JKR would have written two characters in the same vein. Kneasy: > The Trial. >> Beater than his answers to the charges. > > 1. What information would a person in his position have that was so > important? > > 2. Despite the vehement opposition of Crouch and his fellow accusers, some-one does get him a job in the Ministry. Who? Aggie: My very questions!! Oops! Sorry, I didn't poach them!!! Kneasy: > Bertha Jorkins. > 4. Did she recognise Pettigrew? Her memory was good enough to cope >with the relatives she met, so it would be expected she would >recognise some-one she had been at school with who had become so >infamous. So why did she go wandering off into the woods with him, >allowing him his opportunity to control her? Was this meeting by >chance or design? Aggie: Very good point! My only theory as to why she would go off with Peter would be that he fed her the cock and bull story of his innocence, that he was on the run from Sirius (esp now he had escaped) and she bought it. > Kneasy: > The Quidditch World Cup. <<>> > When told of the trouble at the campsite his response is > "Damn them!" He then disparates. He re-apppears after Winky is found > with Potter's wand. He babbles on about the Dark Mark, and avoids > Crouches question about where he has been by asking why Crouch hadn't taken his seat at the World Cup. > When Winky is questioned by Diggory as to who conjured the Dark Mark, her eyes flicker from Diggory, to Bagman, then to Crouch. > > 5. "Damn them!" is a curious response here; it carries the >implication of knowledge of the participants. > > 6. Winky categorically states at a later date that Bagman is "a bad > wizard". Is this why she glances at Bagman? Does she know or >believe that Bagman is involved in the riot or it's aftermath? > > 7. Just where did Bagman apparate to? > > 8. Did the Subject know that Crouch would be distracted/discomforted by > the reminder of who was in Crouchs' seat? > Aggie: I love this! You are SO right, "Damn them" is a curious statement! It's as though he wasn't suprised or shocked or disturbed by the event, just annoyed!! Kneasy: > The Tri-Wizard Tournament. > > 10. Why did he "run for it" immediately after the third task? At >this point only a small group were aware of what had happened. >Certainly the result was uncertain and there were no Goblins >present to make a fuss. However, this was about the time that >Voldemort was calling his followers. Aggie: Of all your points, this one is the clincher for me!! It is very suspicious timing, to say the least!! And JKR justs casually mentions it. There's no big scene about it, which in my opinion means it's a dead cert to be significant!! Kneasy: > 11. Does Bagman have a Dark Mark? Did he realise that Voldemort had > risen again? Is he perhaps the cowardly follower who will pay? Aggie: If this is the case then we run out of phrases! If Bagman is the 'coward' then what does that make Karkaroff? We have three phrases, The Coward, The Traitor and The Most Loyal Servant. We have (among general consensus) three DEs, Karkaroff, Snape and Crouch Jnr. If Bagman is in there then one of those must have been at the graveyard. Of course Karkaroff *could* have been there as he disappeared after the dark mark burned. He wouldn't have had the problems that Snape would have had with timings etc as he didn't return to Hogwarts. >Kneasy: > "Bagman has never been accused of any Dark activity since [his >trial]." - Albus Dumbledore. Perhaps the key word is 'accused'. Aggie: but that could go for Snape too. I looked up DD's remark about Snape to see if it differed from Bagman's but it's just an addition to this conversation "No more has Professor Snape." It's also bizarre that he didn't appear in OotP. As far as I'm aware, JKR has only given us one relatively main character that hasn't been relevant throughout the series and that was Quirrell. Bagman featured too much to just disappear. Thanks SO much for this link! It's very incitful!! I can't believe that no-body replied to this when it was originally posted!! I'm off to read GoF again now!! Thanks to Carolyn and SSSusan for their comments. Loved your radiobay Carolyn! Very well researched! From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Fri Jul 30 12:11:05 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:11:05 -0000 Subject: Can Lucius Talk His Way Out of This One? In-Reply-To: <002301c4761a$786e7a70$87c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108189 > DuffyPoo: > > Was it something DD said that 'made Fudge flee the ministry?' Valky: We must remember that our source for the information that Fudge has fled comes from The Quibbler, maybe the crumple Horned Snorkack scared him away. My point is, it is still possible that while it seems we have a new Minister in HBP, that Fudge may be ousted through some other means. From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Fri Jul 30 12:23:55 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 08:23:55 -0400 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy - VERY LONG Message-ID: <005e01c47630$16c714b0$87c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 108190 HunterGreen said: >>He has not been 'marked as equal', he doesn't appear to have any special powers, and he doesn't have specific connections to Voldemort the way Harry does (such as the scar and the blood). Another thing, would Harry have been able to get the prophecy if it wasn't about him? Did the DoM employees put the curse on it saying that only "*Harry* and Voldemort" would be able to get it, or only "the ones the prophecy refers to"? << DuffyPoo now: "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..." (OotP) Born to those who have thrice defied him....DD says both the Potters and the Longbottoms have done so, by saying that both Harry and Neville fit the mold. Born as the seventh month dies....HP July 31, 1980; NL July 30, 1980 What I am saying is, none of the rest of the prophecy has yet been fulfilled, even though DD, the WW, LV himself, and the Keeper of the Prophecies believes it has been. What happened after LV went to the Potters is only circumstantial evidence because he never got to the Longbottoms. If it had happened the other way round, and LV went to the Longbottoms first and killed baby Neville, we wouldn't be having this discussion. The problem exists, for me, because both kids who could have fulfilled the prophecy are still living. LV only knows the first part of the prophecy, remember, 'the one with the power to vanquish the DL approaches, born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies.' He was going to kill all the kids born at the end of July to parents who had thrice defied him. That means HP and NL. He went to the Potters first because, thanks to Wormtail, he knew where they were hiding. He tried to kill HP, Lily's sacrifice (not any power HP had) saved baby Harry and the curse rebounded onto LV. LV now, what's left of him, *mistakenly* believes that HP is the one in the prophecy, because LV was unable to kill him. LV himself, later, said he had forgotten the power of the sacrifice Lily had made. There was nothing special about HP, there was something very special about Lily's sacrifice (whether or not it was simply her sacrificing herself for Harry or she had cast a counter spell. It is still Lily that protected HP, not anything about HP himself that saved him). The *mark* - the scar - is circumstantial...it was caused by the rebounding of the AK off Lily's protective sacrifice. The AK was just as strong bouncing back. LV himself says it should have killed him, would have killed him if he hadn't made advances into immortality. The sacrifice that prevented LV/Quirrell touching HP is gone since LV used HP's blood in his rebirthing potion. HP is still protected by the charm DD placed on him/Petunia so that as long as HP can call the Dursley residence 'home' he will be protected by that Lily-Petunia-HP blood thing...the place where HP's mother's blood resides. (Since, in my theory here, HP is not the one anyway, this really changes nothing except now, if HP leaves Hogwarts or the Dursley residence, LV can kill him because Lily's protection, which saved him before, is now gone. LV can kill anyone else he wants to, as well.) Because of what happened between LV and the Potters, DD and the WW *mistakenly* believe there is something special about HP. DD believes *mistakenly* that HP is the one the prophecy refers to. The Keeper of the Prophecy changes the card from "Dark Lord & (?)" to "Dark Lord & Harry Potter" because of the circumstantial evidence and the fact that old LV appears to have vanished. The reason HP can take the prophecy orb down is that the prophecy *now refers to him*. DD, we know now, has been watching HP like a hawk. DD let him go after the Philosopher's Stone & face LV, go into the CoS & deal with TR/Basilisk, meet, get to know, rescue and stay in contact with his Godfather, let HP take part in the Triwizard Tournament although DD had to have known the Goblet was tricked, let the events of OotP happen because.....DD mistakenly believes HP is "THE ONE." He jumped to the wrong conclusion. DD let him do all those things because he mistakenly believes HP is the one and HP needed these experiences for the final, yet to come, confrontation with LV. The simple fact is Neville has never been tested against LV. He may have powers none of us, including Neville, know anything about. He *appears* an unlikely candidate for the job, but we know very little about him. His parents were, obviously, both very talented magically. They 'thrice defied' LV, like the Potters had. Neville has been, for five years, using a wand that didn't belong to him. Neville has, for most of his life been rather, 'kept down' by his Grandmother, I think. Quite likely told, on a regular basis, that he is quite useless. Yet, Professor McGonagall knows it is only lack of confidence holding Neville back. Neville found that confidence through the DA. Harry remarked that no one was more changed than Neville and that once the DE's escaped Azkaban, Neville became even more confident, 'but in nobody was this improvement more pronounced than in Neville. ... He was improving so fast it was quit unnerving and when Harry taught them the Sheild Charm - a means of deflecting minor jinxes so that they rebounded upon the attacker - only Hermione mastered the charm faster than Neville.' (Don't forget, Hermione originally found this charm, and helped HP learn it, to use in the third task of the Triwizard Tournament.) Neville did his fair share of spells in the DoM (yes, some of them went astray, but remember, Neville has never been in this kind of situation before - Hermione and Harry both have), until his wand was broken and he was kicked in the face and couldn't speak properly. He was there, by Harry's side, until the end, until HP ran after Bella. Neville is also quite adept at Herbology. Does anyone remember that the cry of the Mandrake is 'fatal to anyone who hears it'? Neville doesn't need a wand to deal with LV. All he needs is a pair of earmuffs and a pot plant. ;) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Fri Jul 30 14:09:44 2004 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:09:44 -0000 Subject: Can Lucius Talk His Way Out of This One? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108191 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > > > DuffyPoo: > > > > Was it something DD said that 'made Fudge flee the ministry?' > > > Valky: > We must remember that our source for the information that Fudge has > fled comes from > My point is, it is still possible that while it seems we have a new > Minister in HBP, that Fudge may be ousted through some other means. DD's 30 mins with Fudge always struck me as rather odd. Just 30 mins? After reading this thread though I have come to the conclusion that DD used Occlumens/Legitmens(not sure of the spelling) on Fudge which would explain the short time period. 30 mins seemed too short a period of time for discussion of what has come to light as far as LV returning, the DE's in the MOM, etc. As far as Fudge fleeing, all we know from JRK is that he will be replaced. IMHO we will see the replacement take place in HBP and why he is being replaced. Lucious as next MOM is a little outlandish. He was caught red handed, and Harry knew he was at the gaveyard when LV called the DE's back. Talk his ways out? Nah, he and the other DE's will escape. My 2 knuts..........Fran From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 30 14:12:53 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:12:53 -0000 Subject: The Titlings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108192 SSSusan "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > > I have a question about this. Can you say more about Sirius > > being *related* to Harry? I guess I don't see it. Sirius was > > not a relative of James or Lily (that we know of); he was merely > > chosen to be Harry's godfather. Perhaps you're using "related > > to" in a way different than I'm taking it, though. Could you > > expand on this a little more? "chrisp" wrote: > The relation that I was mentioned doesn't exactly have to be blood > related. Some can say that the bond you have with your best friends > can be tighter than with your family, don't you agree? And Harry > himself think Sirius to be more than a godfather, but perhaps, as > his uncle or an older brother. Love and best friends can be > considered also to be a relation on some families. > > However, maybe in the wizarding world, when someone's chosen to be > a godfather there are some kind of ceremony which the person gave > up an amount of his blood to his godchild... SSSusan: Thanks for clarifying. I think it makes a difference in how one predicts, from your earlier model, WHO Book 6 will be about. With you idea in mind, when you said the person is "related to" Harry, it bears on picking another "related to" person for Book 6. With a fairly loose definition of "relation" it really opens the field of candidates up, wouldn't you say? Siriusly Snapey Susan From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 30 14:16:47 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:16:47 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108193 HunterGreen: > Another thing, would Harry have been able to > get the prophecy if it wasn't about him? Did the DoM employees put > the curse on it saying that only "*Harry* and Voldemort" would be > able to get it, or only "the ones the prophecy refers to"? SSSusan: You know, I think he might have been able to. Since the prophecy could *potentially* have been about either Harry or Neville, I have a feeling that either one of them could have taken it off the shelf for that reason. I could be wrong, of course! Siriusly Snapey Susan From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 30 14:31:15 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:31:15 -0000 Subject: DD's greatest fear (was: Snape's part in death of Sirius) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108194 [NOTE from SSSusan: Neri & Pippin have been discussing the timeline for the night of Sirius' death and the degree of Snape's culpability in said demise. This is a very NON-related question to that discussion but was triggered by Neri's mentioning what DD did the night of the attack on Arthur.] Neri: > > 7. Get Harry to HQ (and notice DD didn't have to do it just > > because Arthur was attacked. He could have sent Harry back to his > > bed. But he wanted Harry out of Umbridge's reach). Pippin: > Also out of *Dumbledore's* reach. The great fear he had was that > Voldemort would force him to attack Harry. Note also that despite > this fear, and that Umbridge is on her way, he waits for Phineas > to find out if "the coast is clear" before sendingHarry to GP. > *That's* significant. Surely with Harry's safety at stake, > Dumbledore wasn't worried about mere politeness, or about > catching Sirius with his pants down. What, or who, was Dumbledore > afraid of? SSSusan: I sent a question about this offlist to Pippin, but then I realized I'd like to hear others' thoughts on it, if anyone's interested in responding. *IF* I've understood Pippin's 2nd sentence correctly [notice the Big If], then she's saying that DD's great fear was that Voldy would *force him* to attack Harry. Here's my question. Is this what DD's was talking about when he said he couldn't make direct eye contact w/ Harry throughout this school year? I've never quite felt like I had a full grasp on what it was DD was afraid would happen, but I thought it had to do w/ a fear of Voldy *learning* things if he was possessing Harry and Harry was looking directly into DD's eyes...or that if Voldy was possessing Harry, then he [V] might force HARRY to attack DD. Or have I missed the point here altogether? :-| Can others weigh in on this, please? I'd love to hear alternative views on what it was DD was so afraid of re: eye contact with Harry. Siriusly Snapey Susan From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Fri Jul 30 15:31:50 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:31:50 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Snape=92s_access_to_DD_office=3F_(was:_Snape's_part_in_death_of_Sirius_)?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108195 > Pippin: > How can Snape do this? Isn't he shut out of Dumbledore's office along > with everyone else? Neri: As another interesting subthread from the original discussion, I believe Snape did have access to DD's office when DD was not in Hogwarts. The reason is that in the first Occlumency lesson, Harry recognizes the Pensieve Snape uses as DD's Pensieve. The last (and memorable) Occlumency lesson is cosiderable time after DD left Hogwarts, and his office is said to be shut (Umbridge certainly doesn't manage to get in), but the Pensieve is still in Snape's possession. But in Ch. 37 when Harry is sent back to DD's office from the MoM, he sees the Pensieve in DD's office. How did it got there and what does this signifies? Neri From jferer at yahoo.com Fri Jul 30 15:35:55 2004 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:35:55 -0000 Subject: Can Lucius Talk His Way Out of This One? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108196 > Fran: > DD's 30 mins with Fudge always struck me as rather odd. Just 30 > mins? After reading this thread though I have come to the > conclusion that DD used Occlumens/Legitmens(not sure of the > spelling) on Fudge which would explain the short time period. 30 > mins seemed too short a period of time for discussion of what has > come to light as far as LV returning, the DE's in the MOM, etc. "I can spare you thirty minutes of my time *tonight,*" suggesting that there probably will come another, longer explanation. DD had his hands full right then, and to him Harry is/was more important (which is true). If Fudge wants to get his head out of he can come visit or write letters to *The Headmaster.* Fudge is toast anyway. He's as over as a politician can ever be. Jim Ferer From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Jul 30 15:49:16 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:49:16 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Snape=92s_access_to_DD_office=3F_(was:_Snape's_part_in_death_of_Sirius_)?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108197 > Neri: > As another interesting subthread from the original discussion, I > believe Snape did have access to DD's office when DD was not in > Hogwarts. The reason is that in the first Occlumency lesson, Harry > recognizes the Pensieve Snape uses as DD's Pensieve. The last (and > memorable) Occlumency lesson is cosiderable time after DD left > Hogwarts, and his office is said to be shut (Umbridge certainly > doesn't manage to get in), but the Pensieve is still in Snape's > possession. But in Ch. 37 when Harry is sent back to DD's office from the MoM, he sees the Pensieve in DD's office. How did it got there and what does this signifies? > Potioncat: I took, from the very first time I read it, to be an assumption on Harry's part that it was DD's Pensieve. Do we know if it was ever confirmed. I will admit that I am also assuming. What do the rest of you think? Is this DD's or Snape's? I also thought that one of the Portraits made the comment that if Harry was in DD's office, that DD must be back. That made me think that no one but DD had access to the office. Potioncat (apologizing for not double checking canon on this.) From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Fri Jul 30 17:50:58 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:50:58 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Snape=92s_access_to_DD_office=3F_(was:_Snape's_part_in_death_of_Sirius_)?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108198 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > > Neri: > > As another interesting subthread from the original discussion, I > > believe Snape did have access to DD's office when DD was not in > > Hogwarts. The reason is that in the first Occlumency lesson, Harry > > recognizes the Pensieve Snape uses as DD's Pensieve. The last (and > > memorable) Occlumency lesson is cosiderable time after DD left > > Hogwarts, and his office is said to be shut (Umbridge certainly > > doesn't manage to get in), but the Pensieve is still in Snape's > > possession. But in Ch. 37 when Harry is sent back to DD's office > from the MoM, he sees the Pensieve in DD's office. How did it got > there and what does this signifies? > > > > > Potioncat: > I took, from the very first time I read it, to be an assumption on > Harry's part that it was DD's Pensieve. Do we know if it was ever > confirmed. I will admit that I am also assuming. What do the rest > of you think? Is this DD's or Snape's? > Neri: Don't have the books with me either, but I remember Harry recognizing the Pensieve in the first Occlumency lesson as DD's Pensieve. The Pensieve has symbols on it and is rather unique. Such objects in the WW are most certainly made to order, not mass production identical. We actually don't even have any indication that Pensieves other than that of DD's exist at all. Neri From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 30 18:04:14 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:04:14 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy - VERY LONG In-Reply-To: <005e01c47630$16c714b0$87c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108199 DuffyPoo: >>> Born to those who have thrice defied him....DD says both the Potters and the Longbottoms have done so, by saying that both Harry and Neville fit the mold. Born as the seventh month dies....HP July 31, 1980; NL July 30, 1980. What I am saying is, none of the rest of the prophecy has yet been fulfilled, even though DD, the WW, LV himself, and the Keeper of the Prophecies believes it has been. What happened after LV went to the Potters is only circumstantial evidence because he never got to the Longbottoms. If it had happened the other way round, and LV went to the Longbottoms first and killed baby Neville, we wouldn't be having this discussion. The problem exists, for me, because both kids who could have fulfilled the prophecy are still living. LV only knows the first part of the prophecy, remember, 'the one with the power to vanquish the DL approaches, born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies.' He was going to kill all the kids born at the end of July to parents who had thrice defied him. That means HP and NL. He went to the Potters first because, thanks to Wormtail, he knew where they were hiding. He tried to kill HP, Lily's sacrifice (not any power HP had) saved baby Harry and the curse rebounded onto LV. LV now, what's left of him, *mistakenly* believes that HP is the one in the prophecy, because LV was unable to kill him. LV himself, later, said he had forgotten the power of the sacrifice Lily had made. There was nothing special about HP, there was something very special about Lily's sacrifice (whether or not it was simply her sacrificing herself for Harry or she had cast a counter spell. It is still Lily that protected HP, not anything about HP himself that saved him). The *mark* - the scar - is circumstantial...it was caused by the rebounding of the AK off Lily's protective sacrifice. The AK was just as strong bouncing back. LV himself says it should have killed him, would have killed him if he hadn't made advances into immortality. The sacrifice that prevented LV/Quirrell touching HP is gone since LV used HP's blood in his rebirthing potion. HP is still protected by the charm DD placed on him/Petunia so that as long as HP can call the Dursley residence 'home' he will be protected by that Lily-Petunia-HP blood thing...the place where HP's mother's blood resides. (Since, in my theory here, HP is not the one anyway, this really changes nothing except now, if HP leaves Hogwarts or the Dursley residence, LV can kill him because Lily's protection, which saved him before, is now gone. LV can kill anyone else he wants to, as well.) Because of what happened between LV and the Potters, DD and the WW *mistakenly* believe there is something special about HP. DD believes *mistakenly* that HP is the one the prophecy refers to. The Keeper of the Prophecy changes the card from "Dark Lord & (?)" to "Dark Lord & Harry Potter" because of the circumstantial evidence and the fact that old LV appears to have vanished. The reason HP can take the prophecy orb down is that the prophecy *now refers to him*. DD, we know now, has been watching HP like a hawk. DD let him go after the Philosopher's Stone & face LV, go into the CoS & deal with TR/Basilisk, meet, get to know, rescue and stay in contact with his Godfather, let HP take part in the Triwizard Tournament although DD had to have known the Goblet was tricked, let the events of OotP happen because.....DD mistakenly believes HP is "THE ONE." He jumped to the wrong conclusion. DD let him do all those things because he mistakenly believes HP is the one and HP needed these experiences for the final, yet to come, confrontation with LV. The simple fact is Neville has never been tested against LV. He may have powers none of us, including Neville, know anything about. He *appears* an unlikely candidate for the job, but we know very little about him. SSSusan: This is a fascinating and nicely-summarized take on things, and I thoroughly enjoyed reading it. I don't happen to agree with all of it, but it's fascinating nonetheless. :-) I would point out only one objection. You have said: "The simple fact is Neville has never been tested against LV. He may have powers none of us, including Neville, know anything about." This is clearly a true statement. BECAUSE I agree with it, I feel the need to ask you about this statement: "There was nothing special about HP, there was something very special about Lily's sacrifice (whether or not it was simply her sacrificing herself for Harry or she had cast a counter spell. It is still Lily that protected HP, not anything about HP himself that saved him)." It seems to me that this a BIG leap to make. Just as we don't KNOW whether Neville has powers we haven't seen, how can you argue that there *is* nothing special about Harry? Surely Lily's sacrifice saved him--DD has said as much--but how do we know that, still, there is nothing special about Harry? Or that it was a combination of Lily's sacrifice and "something about Harry"? My own pet theory is that Harry is quite special, indeed. He needed his mother's protection as an infant; he's not invincible now. Still, I think he is quite special and has powers other wizards his age [perhaps other wizards, period] do not possess, and I don't buy that *all* his powers were transferred to him by Voldy. It seems to me that while I can't prove my last statement is true, neither can you prove your statement that there is/was nothing special about Harry. Siriusly Snapey Susan From mnaperrone at aol.com Fri Jul 30 18:09:22 2004 From: mnaperrone at aol.com (mnaper2001) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:09:22 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Snape=92s_access_to_DD_office=3F_(was:_Snape's_part_in_death_of_Sirius_)?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108200 > > > Neri: > > > As another interesting subthread from the original discussion, I > > > believe Snape did have access to DD's office when DD was not in > > > Hogwarts. The reason is that in the first Occlumency lesson, > Harry > > > recognizes the Pensieve Snape uses as DD's Pensieve. The last > (and > > > memorable) Occlumency lesson is cosiderable time after DD left > > > Hogwarts, and his office is said to be shut (Umbridge certainly > > > doesn't manage to get in), but the Pensieve is still in Snape's > > > possession. But in Ch. 37 when Harry is sent back to DD's office > > from the MoM, he sees the Pensieve in DD's office. How did it got > > there and what does this signifies? > > > > > > > Ally: It sounded to me from DD's discussion with Harry that he was well- aware that Snape stopped occlumency. I took this to mean that he and Snape had already had a discussion about the lessons, before he spoke to Harry, so perhaps Snape returned it to him then. As someone else indicated, the fact that Harry was able to go into the office suggested that DD had already been back. From ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 30 18:16:40 2004 From: ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com (ohneill_2001) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:16:40 -0000 Subject: Prophecy question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108201 amdorn wrote: > I was just at JKR's website and have found out that Neville's > Birthday is not the same day as Harry's. I know that prophecy > states "as the seventh month dies" and fortunately Harry's birthday > is the last day of July. Which is definitely as the seventh month > dies. Neville's birthday is near the end but not on the last day of > the month. I have given Neville's Birthday below the spoiler space > in case anyone wants to find it for themselve on her website. Does > this mean that it could have been anyone whose parents defied > Voldemort three times and was born after July 16th? It seems to me > that the definition of that portion of the prophecy is a little vague > now. Before it was obvious because the last day of the month is > really when the month dies. > Now Cory: For that matter, let's not forget that the only reason why we "know" that the prophecy might also have been referring to Neville is because Dumbledore says so. Why should we necessarily assume that DD's interpretation of the phrase "as the seventh month dies" is correct? Depending on interpretation, the phrase could mean that "the one" was born: 1) at precisely midnight on August 1; 2) on July 31; 3) anytime in the "last few days" of July; or 4) anytime in the second half of July. I think DD is the wisest character in this story, but he is not infallible. I think before the story is over, we will learn that DD's interpretation of the prophecy was incorrect in some material respect (though possibly not on this particular point). --Cory From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Fri Jul 30 18:37:08 2004 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:37:08 -0000 Subject: Happy Birthday, Neville In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108202 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aggiepaddy" wrote: > "potioncat" : > > > Quick, go look. On JKR's site the calendar says the 29th is > > > Neville's birthday! I checked on the Lexicon and didn't see a > > >date for him....so someone go be a witness! > > >Snow: > > Just went to the site and this is what I copied and pasted. > > > > Section: Happy Birthday > > 30 July > > Neville Longbottom > > > > Not another booboo... I'm going to have to make a bandaid for all > the many bloops JKR has made on this site:(:[::]:) > > > Aggie: > This is very perplexing isn't it?!? Do you think that the time zones > would have anything to do with it? I don't know how these things > work so not sure if this would confuse the issue. Does the site > update as per BST or by the individual computer? Antosha: It updates by the computer. Look at the watch on her desktop--it shows the time that's set on your computer. From cyclone_61032 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 30 11:49:14 2004 From: cyclone_61032 at yahoo.com (David & Laura) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:49:14 -0000 Subject: HBP Clues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108203 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gelite67" wrote: > Angie wonders: > > > > The question for me would be why, then, did the Sorting Hat > consider > > placing Harry in SLytherin and why did it tell Harry he would have > > done well in Slytherin (if he was the true heir of Gryffindor)? > > Brenda responds: > > > > Simply because of the powers transferred from LV to Harry when he > tried to curse him. > > > Angie responds: > It would seem, then, that the Sorting Hat is rather easily fooled. > If there is "nothing hidden in your head the Sorting Hat can't see" > (SS) then it should know that Harry's "true" character would not > allow him to do well in Slytherin. David: I don't remember the sorting hat wanting to put Harry in Slytherin. Harry kept thinking 'not Slytherin', and it seems the hat debated with him. I don't believe the hat is fooled at all. It seems the hat can look into a person and see the potential (Neville) and then sort them to the house to best develop that potential. From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri Jul 30 12:14:50 2004 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:14:50 -0000 Subject: Patterns Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108204 One pattern I see is Dursleys' 'guests'... There's ALWAYS someone not Dursley in there! Book one: Dudleys' Muggle gang - members, definitely against Harry; Hagrid, magical giantic defender who gets Harry off. CoS: Two Muggles(or are they?), Mr and Mrs Mason, builders etc. Now they're not actively against Harry, just that their presence brings a bit of trouble - they visit *Dursleys*. Harry has a guest of his own, Dobby - a magical being, house-elf-- who is determinded to keep Harry out of Hogwarts and trouble occurs. OOTH there are three magical friends of Harry's who come to take him off on a car, thus further assisting Harry to get to Hogwarts... car vs. Dobby (the train-thing) PoA. Only guests are Aunt Marge (A Muggle, most likely, but who knows) and her dog. While Aunt Marge is against Harry (constant insults), she is ALSO the power that releases Harry, by making Harry so angry he loses control of his magic and *leaves* the Dursley household on his own... also, Dementors vs. Remus on the train. GoF. Magical guests, Weasleys, who come to take Harry off. Not much trouble this time in getting there (but a little bit on the Quidditch game)... OOP - now, Dementors that Harry beats, but gets in trouble for it; Remus, Tonks & Moody coming to pick up Harry (after distracting Dursleys... a wonder they left Harry alone!) Always something trying to keep Harry out of Hogwarts (or Hogsmeade), it seems that trouble comes less each time. (though a bit more serious, as Harry's now facing wizengamot instead of just getting a letter), but Harry's getting to Hogwarts... I just wonder, *how* is Harry getting off in this HBP - book? I mean there's always something alike to previous books, yet always different. Maybe Vernon will throw Harry out? Maybe Harry drinks (accidentally? trying to make suicide?) a potion like Draught of Living Death or something... Finwitch From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Fri Jul 30 18:39:23 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:39:23 -0000 Subject: Snape's part in death of Sirius - Revised Time In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108205 <<<>>>>>> I, Aggie, have a question that defers from this original topic: > Pippin: > Also out of *Dumbledore's* reach. The great fear he had was that > Voldemort would force him to attack Harry. Note also that despite this fear, and that Umbridge is on her way, he waits for Phineas to find out if "the coast is clear" before sendingHarry to GP. *That's* significant. Surely with Harry's safety at stake, Dumbledore wasn't worried about mere politeness, or about catching Sirius with his pants down. What, or who, was Dumbledore afraid of? Aggie: I hadn't picked up on this before! (One of the reasons I'm SO pleased I've discovered you lot! It's great being part of the biggest book club in the Potterverse! Maybe even RL!!) Have you any ideas as to WHAT/WHO/WHY? The only theory I can come up with is that he was checking Kreacher was out of the way. Maybe that was a clue that should have lead us to the house elf being the traitor. I've just realised who I'm talking to!!! LOL! Of course you have an idea of who it is!!!! ;o)) From ginamiller at jis.nashville.org Fri Jul 30 18:41:05 2004 From: ginamiller at jis.nashville.org (Miller, Gina (JIS)) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:41:05 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] DD's greatest fear (was: Snape's part in deat h of Sirius) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108206 SSSusan: I'd love to hear alternative views on what it was DD was so afraid of re: eye contact with Harry. Gina: Susan, I had a theory (not many people like my theories! :-)) but here it goes! LV is described with red eyes and being a snake yada yada. So, I think at some point DD saw that in Harry's eyes (red glow maybe) and knew LV was there. I think DD is an animagus or at least has blood of something that is afraid of snakes. That is why he could not look Harry in the eyes. Maybe it would have hurt/killed him if he looked at the wrong time. Gina - with her bizarre speculations [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From griffin782002 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 30 13:10:18 2004 From: griffin782002 at yahoo.com (sp. sot.) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 06:10:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Can Lucius Talk His Way Out of This One? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040730131018.78572.qmail@web90001.mail.scd.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 108207 "M.Clifford" wrote: Valky: We must remember that our source for the information that Fudge has fled comes from The Quibbler, maybe the crumple Horned Snorkack scared him away. My point is, it is still possible that while it seems we have a new Minister in HBP, that Fudge may be ousted through some other means. Griffin782002 now: I still support the idea that Fugde was a D.E. And as some fellow members have pointed out, the night L.V. returned, he should have felt his Mark burn. Well yes, but what about the case of denying the obvious. I posted a message about H.P. and its relation with Ancient Mythologies. Some replied by saying, more or less, that I can't see the obvious (about Sirius's death). Well, what about Fudge making the same thoughts (if I am wrong about Sirius fate). Sorry if my post sounds a bit aggressive. Griffin782002 From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Fri Jul 30 14:38:06 2004 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 07:38:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's part in death of Sirius - Revised Time In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040730143806.69067.qmail@web50101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 108208 Neri: > Snape was the only member of the Order left in Hogwarts. From the > Order's point-of-view he was Harry's last line of defense. He was > also Harry's last communication channel to the Order. Snape knew > that, and he certainly knew what were the dangers to Harry. He also > realized that Harry is under a mind attack from LV (again, DD > specifically mentions that he was). All Snape did was ensuring that > Sirius is OK. After that he either didn't bother to check about > Harry's situation, or he did check, found that the suspicious > Umbridge took him to the dangerous Forbidden Forest, and did > nothing about it (not even keeping HQ posted!) for several hours. > Several members speculated that he was too busy with other chores, > such as dehexing the Slytheryns. If this is true, then this is > exactly because he tried to handle a complicated emergency > situation all by himself, instead of calling reinforcements > immediately. Sorry but I really don't see your point, Neri. What was Snape supposed to do? Force his way into Umbridge's office and take him away at wandpoint to get him to 12GP? And why go to 12GP in the first place? Snape ascertained that the vision was false and Sirius was safe. He had no way of knowing that Harry had been trying to do anything but TALK to someone - probably Sirius but perhaps the Weasleys at the Burrow too - about it. Umbridge prevented it but didn't know who he'd been trying to contact. Umbridge and the Draco Squad also have the upper hand on the DA members. What reason would Snape have to assume that she wasn't just going to hand out detentions, confiscate wands, gloat insufferably and send them all back to their dorms? What indication did Snape have that this scenario would not happen? Yes, it's a concern that Voldemort is messing with Harry's mind again but unless he can get Harry out of the safety of Hogwarts (which doesn't seem at all possible with him literally in Umbridge's clutches) then it's not a dangerous situation. I really don't see how Snape could have assumed that Umbridge would be stupid/crazy enough to crucio Harry and that Hermione would come up with a bizarre plan to save him. Once he was aware that they had gone to the forest, he went after them and notified the Order on the chance that Harry had gone to the MOM. And it was still only a chance. How on earth would they have gone there? Break into the broomshed and steal the brooms? Floo from Hogsmeade? The likeliest thing was that they were in the woods and he operated on that assumption with the addition warning to the Order just in case. The other Order members would not have a lot of faith in Snape's ability to handle a situation if he fired off all-points-bulletins to rouse the troops every time Harry had a bad dream or vision. The adult Order members know that Voldemort can and probably will play with Harry's head - as long as they keep their own heads, they can contain the damage. Magda __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From gelite67 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 30 14:44:10 2004 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:44:10 -0000 Subject: Snapes Attitude towards the Students In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108209 > HunterGreen: > Other than the comment about Hermione's teeth, is there any other > particular *incident* he needs to be punished for? Angie replies: Of course teachers are not there to coddle the students, and any teacher has the right to place a student in detention or to address a student in a reproving manner. But no teacher should verbally abuse children, regardless of the ages of the children. Obviously, Snape is not going to be fired, unless that is crucial to the plot. Right now, it's crucial for Snape to be at HW for many reasons I'm sure I don't know. One of the obvious is to be Harry's foil. It would be a less compelling read if all Harry had to contend with on a regular basis at HW was Malfoy (I love Alan Rickman's portryal of Snape in the movies, even though they've toned him down). But I still maintain that someone with Snape's attitude should not be teaching children. Which raises the question of why DD hired him, which goes to your next point. > Huntergreen wrote > I think the reason [DD hired Snape]is pretty obvious. Not only is Snape an excellent > potion-maker (are there many potions teachers out there? there may > not be), but Snape is handy to have around, as he has shown many > times. > Angie repiles: There were surely other excellent potion-makers. There is no mention in the books of DD having a hard time hiring a Potions teacher. Snape has shown he's handy to have around, but the full explanation of why DD keeps him around is yet to come. I hope there is something redeeming about him! From william_mclamb at yahoo.com Fri Jul 30 16:22:02 2004 From: william_mclamb at yahoo.com (william_mclamb) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:22:02 -0000 Subject: FF :Tom Riddle's Diary Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108210 Vapor!Mort: "Well this is certainly unexpected!" (Looks at Harry in his crib)"You should be dead!" (Looks at Dead!Lily) "Hmm, no doubt some ancient Potter heirloom spell. No matter. It's time for plan B!!(Evil genius that he is he avoided calling it Plan D) Ignoring whatever is going on around him as unimportant Vapor!Mort wafts his way to whereever he hid his school diary. Wherever it is down in the deepest, dankest dungeon is a small library of carefully selected books and scrolls. Lying on a comfortable bed, next to which is a couple of years worth of M-Rats(magical rations) is an old, old "friend" of Voldemort's, clutched in his hands is Tom's school diary. This person is under the influence of spells which must be renewed periodically. Vapor!Mort: "Now just to settle down and enjoy the show!" (Vapor! Mort begins munching on passing rats like a thirteen-year-old boy eating popcorn while seeing Star Wars for the first time.) The sleeper awakes. The Awake!Sleeper gradually falls under the control of Diary!Tom who... Vapor!Mort turns to the Muggle audience and says: "Hey, you don't think I'm going to let you see any of this do you! Just be satisfied in knowing that you are Plan C! You can come back when the good part starts. Now, begone!!" The audience hastily hurries to the next visible scene, except for one who tries to see some of the deleted scenes. He and half the audience promptly keel over dead! Vapor!Mort: "NO PEEKING!" The shrunken audience rushes to the next scene. Lord Voldemort: "Taa Daa! I'm back, and badder than ever! Oh, badness I was a good looking fellow! First things first, I have to get that cottontail fellow...No, I think the name is Wormtail, whatever his name was needs to come here and breed me some better tasting rats those were foul. And then..." He turns to the audience and says, "This audience is over!" The audience falls over dead. ************ So why doesn't a better written version of this happen? I can think of two possiblities. 1) Someone,perhaps Lucius, steals the diary before it can happen. Or, 2) The diary was never Tom's at all and someone created it for their own purposes. What do you think? From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Jul 30 18:58:10 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:58:10 -0000 Subject: FLOOZY 2 - Bagman In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108211 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aggiepaddy" wrote: > > Aggie: > If this is the case then we run out of phrases! If Bagman is > the 'coward' then what does that make Karkaroff? We have three > phrases, The Coward, The Traitor and The Most Loyal Servant. We have > (among general consensus) three DEs, Karkaroff, Snape and Crouch > Jnr. If Bagman is in there then one of those must have been at the > graveyard. Of course Karkaroff *could* have been there as he > disappeared after the dark mark burned. He wouldn't have had the > problems that Snape would have had with timings etc as he didn't > return to Hogwarts. > > Kneasy: Well, I was being a little bit provocative there. There's not enough hard evidence to accuse Bagman of being a DE, though plenty to make one suspicious of his motives, and you don't need to be a DE to be a Voldy supporter - many weren't in the first war. As an extra incentive - it's pretty certain that Baggy is pure-blood. It was his father that was a friend of Rookwood. Being a DE, would Rookwood become friendly with one of the great unwashed? Unlikely. > >Kneasy: > > "Bagman has never been accused of any Dark activity since [his > >trial]." - Albus Dumbledore. Perhaps the key word is 'accused'. > > Aggie: > but that could go for Snape too. I looked up DD's remark about Snape > to see if it differed from Bagman's but it's just an addition to this > conversation "No more has Professor Snape." > > It's also bizarre that he didn't appear in OotP. As far as I'm > aware, JKR has only given us one relatively main character that > hasn't been relevant throughout the series and that was Quirrell. > Bagman featured too much to just disappear. > Kneasy: I agree. It'd be a tragedy if a character like Bagman were only to appear in one book in the series. It's also a tragedy that he's been mostly ignored by posters. He does so much in just one book that is so ambiguous. OK, DD may be speaking the literal truth about accusations; Winky may be prejudiced by family ties, but Rita - "I know things about Bagman that'd make your hair curl" - what a mouth-watering prospect! Don't forget - if you read carefully it's mostly at Bagman's urgings that Harry is accepted as a valid competitor in the TWT. He's the one that starts quoting the rule book and acts relieved when the others agree. He's the one that half-heartedly offers help to Harry then seems unconcerned when it's refused. But he couldn't have made his bet with the Goblins because he didn't know that Harry's name would come out of the Goblet - unless Crouch!Moody told him. And why would Crouch!Moody tell him? No reason at all - unless Bagman was an ally and an accomplice. Aggie: > Thanks SO much for this link! It's very incitful!! I can't believe > that no-body replied to this when it was originally posted!! > > I'm off to read GoF again now!! > > Thanks to Carolyn and SSSusan for their comments. Loved your > radiobay Carolyn! Very well researched! Kneasy: Understandable. It was posted just a month after OoP was published. After a three year drought the members had fresh meat to get their teeth into at long last; a post on the happenings of the previous book didn't have a very high priority. Besides which - Bagman had vanished. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 30 19:27:09 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:27:09 -0000 Subject: Snapes Attitude towards the Students In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108212 HunterGreen: > > Other than the comment about Hermione's teeth, is there any other > > particular *incident* he needs to be punished for? SSSusan: Oh, how I CANNOT believe I'm letting myself get drawn into this.... Potioncat, Alla, you guys gonna add to this, or shall I hang out here by myself? :-) I've changed my tune a bit on Snape **at Hogwarts** from the woeful day when I foolishly coined the phrase "grade abuse". :-| Folks much wiser than I have helped me see that while Snape would be out of MY school system [says the school board member] in a whipstitch, Hogwarts is not a public school in Indiana, and this is real life while Snape, Harry & Hogwarts reside in fiction. SO... as a rule, I've stopped arguing about Snape's horrible teaching methods [though I still *itch* a little to join in when the topic skirts the idea of Snape's effectiveness, since I think it could be argued that he's least effective with the two he likely feels need to learn the most]. ANYWAY, with that preamble aside, I think the other time when Snape was clearly out of line was when Harry actually turned in a decent potion vial in OotP and Snape dropped it. "Whoops." The problem? Who could ever prove that: 1) he noticed Hermione had cleaned Harry's cauldron already; and 2) he dropped it on purpose? No one. So while I *believe* this is another incident where Snape deserved some censure, it would never wash. Siriusly Snapey Susan From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 30 19:33:24 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:33:24 -0000 Subject: New Maps - Lexicon Surrey Essay. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108213 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" > wrote: > > Steve: > > > For reference, in a very in depth analysis of the architecture, > > street names, and general layout of Little Whinging and Privet > > Drive, some deep thinker concluded that it was likely in the area > > near Staines. > > > > I'm still searching for that thread. It was very interesting. > Geoff: > The same thought crossed my mind last night, that someone had placed > it in the north western corner of Surrey, near Heathrow and north of > the river - this is the section of Surrey which was Middlesex until > 1965. > > I dug around in my own personal archive of posts and found a > reference I made months ago - the place to look is in the Lexicon. > There is a well-researched article there discussing the location of > Little Whinging. Asian_lovr2: Thanks, I must have searched 5,000 posts trying to find that discussion; abandoned the search engine and did it the hard way. I wish I could find it though, if anyone has even a remote idea when this discussion occurred, send me a note. The essay is EXTREMELY good, well thought out and researched as are most of the Essays in the Lexicon (one of which is my own). However, the discussion has not only the essay but a lot of feedback on the subject, well worth reading if you can find it. HP Lexicon Essays- http://www.hp-lexicon.org/essays/essay-index.html HP Lexicon- Where is Little Whinging, Surrey Essay- http://www.hp-lexicon.org/atlas/britain/atlas-b-surrey.html Side Note/Slightly Off-Topic: I have frequently searched old posts to compile short link lists to threads on particular subjects, and I've noticed what I guess I always new, there is a lot of great, insightfull knowledge contained in this group. The problem is accessing it. With over 100,000 posts and Yahoo miserable search capability, I have a hard time finding even my own old posts. I've considered the idea of a volunteer group to index the entire HP4GU site, but that's a massive undertaking. So, to Newbies, Middies, and Oldies alike I suggest, just for the fun of it, you pick a number at random (50000, 60000, whatever), type it into the small white text box in the colored bar near the top next to the [GO] button, and go back and start reading. If nothing else this is an excellent way to stimulate new ideas on old subjects. When I am trying to search & compile my specific subject link lists, I usually end up spending about 70% of my time reading old unrelated threads. I really is a worthwhile pursuit. I highly recommend you try it. Steve/asian_lovr2 From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Jul 30 19:52:20 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:52:20 -0000 Subject: The Titlings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108214 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: SSSusan: > Thanks for clarifying. I think it makes a difference in how one > predicts, from your earlier model, WHO Book 6 will be about. With > you idea in mind, when you said the person is "related to" Harry, it > bears on picking another "related to" person for Book 6. With a > fairly loose definition of "relation" it really opens the field of > candidates up, wouldn't you say? Geoff: I think this is a question of semantics isn't it? I think what Chris means is that there is a "relationship" between Harry and another person rather than them being "relations". As we have said, Sirius is not a blood relation of Harry although being a godfather should imply a close relationship which brings him near to being a relation if you take my point. From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Jul 30 20:05:50 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:05:50 -0000 Subject: New Maps - Lexicon Surrey Essay. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108215 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: Asian_lovr2: > Side Note/Slightly Off-Topic: > > I have frequently searched old posts to compile short link lists to > threads on particular subjects, and I've noticed what I guess I always > new, there is a lot of great, insightfull knowledge contained in this > group. The problem is accessing it. With over 100,000 posts and Yahoo > miserable search capability, I have a hard time finding even my own > old posts. I've considered the idea of a volunteer group to index the > entire HP4GU site, but that's a massive undertaking. > Geoff: Another thought along the same line. Some of you have commented on my familiar opening sentence "May I direct your attention to message XXXX". The secret of my doing this is that, when I had been on the group a few weeks and discovered the "miserable search capability" I started to compile my own archive of posts which I had sent. Not as a piece of narcissism but so that when a topic came up about which I had written something in the past, I could quickly find my posts and then access the main thread. It took a bit of work to set up but now I merely add on a post as it is published and it has proved an invaluable resource. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 30 20:18:27 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:18:27 -0000 Subject: The Titlings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108216 SSSusan [to chrisp]: > > Thanks for clarifying. I think it makes a difference in how one > > predicts, from your earlier model, WHO Book 6 will be about. > > With your idea in mind, when you said the person is "related to" > > Harry, it bears on picking another "related to" person for Book > > 6. With a fairly loose definition of "relation" it really opens > > the field of candidates up, wouldn't you say? Geoff: > I think this is a question of semantics isn't it? I think what > Chris means is that there is a "relationship" between Harry and > another person rather than them being "relations". As we have said, > Sirius is not a blood relation of Harry although being a godfather > should imply a close relationship which brings him near to being a > relation if you take my point. SSSusan: Yup, I take your point. *MY* point, though, was that Chrisp was [I think] pointing out how we might, if the pattern he was suggesting held true, predict who the HBP is. If "relationship" is the description of how we tie the PoA to Harry, then I don't think it will be very helpful in our predicting who the HBP will be. Aren't there scores of people Harry has a relationship with? Fewer with a close relationship, if that's what was meant, but still.... Here--here's what was originally written by Chris: > Now, we know that the next title's going to be 'Harry Potter and > the Half Blood Prince' which seems to be like a pattern: > > SS,GF : an item that brought Harry face to face with Voldemort > CS,OP : a place or group of people in which the people, if not > pros, against the pureblood idealism > PA : a man that's related to Harry > > If this pattern is true and I don't make mistake on drawing the > conclusion, then this halfblood prince would surely has some > relation with Harry also. SSSusan again: So do you see my point, Geoff? That we're really not a whole lot nearer to figuring anything out from this pattern if the only clue is "a person with a relationship to Harry". I had thought maybe Chrisp was thinking of something quite specific when he wrote "related to Harry", which is why I went fishing for clarification in the first place. I wasn't arguing semantics; I was trying to find out what Chrisp had in mind. Does that clarify? Siriusly Snapey Susan, not trying to be difficult--really. From mauranen at yahoo.com Fri Jul 30 20:40:05 2004 From: mauranen at yahoo.com (jekatiska) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:40:05 -0000 Subject: Patterns In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108217 Finwitch wrote: > Maybe Vernon will throw Harry out? Maybe Harry drinks (accidentally? > trying to make suicide?) a potion like Draught of Living Death or > something... Jekatiska replies: I don't think so. Vernon won't throw Harry out, he already tried that. And why would Harry try to commit suicide? I have the impression that I read Harry will have his shortest ever stay at the Dursleys' in HBP. From MadameSSnape at aol.com Fri Jul 30 20:43:33 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:43:33 EDT Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:=20[HPforGrownups]=20Re:=20Snape=E2=80=99s=20access?= =?UTF-8?Q?=20to=20DD=20office=3F=20(was:=20Snape's=20part=20in=20de...?= Message-ID: <12e.479d9a9e.2e3c0cf5@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 108218 In a message dated 7/30/2004 2:09:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nkafkafi at yahoo.com writes: Don't have the books with me either, but I remember Harry recognizing the Pensieve in the first Occlumency lesson as DD's Pensieve. The Pensieve has symbols on it and is rather unique. ============ Sherrie here: We really don't know that it's unique - since Harry'd only seen the one before. The symbols may not be individual markings on each Penseive - they may all be identical, part of the process of enchanting the "device". Harry's not always the most observant person in the world - and it's been months since he's seen Dumbledore's Penseive. If there are differences, he wouldn't necessarily notice them. I honestly cannot see sharing Penseives - would you want to give someone else access to your memories? Although - if it IS Dumbledore's Penseive that Snape is using, it says a VERY great deal about the depth of Dumbledore's trust and belief in him! Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 30 20:59:05 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:59:05 -0000 Subject: What Kreacher knew - Sirius's Will In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108219 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brenda M." wrote: > >>> Bren earlier: > > > Is house-elf part of the inheritance/will? Where will Kreacher > > >end up now that Sirius is -hiccup- dead? Does the Black estate > > > go to Bellatrrix and was it why Kreacher was so motivated to > > > eliminate Sirius (well if we believe he was)?? > > Alla responded: > > Hi! > > Do you think Kreacher read Sirius' will if such exists at all? I > am hoping that his estate will go to Harry, but yes, it is likely > that it will go to to the blood relative. <<< > Bren now: > > Hiya Alla!! > > Well, I have no clue if Sirius actually made a will, I don't even > know if he had that in mind. But I'm sure there are wizarding laws > of inheritence matter in case of sudden unprepared death. And > the "noble" pureblood Black family would know great deal about laws, > I'm sure. IMO there is a good chance that Kreacher knew where he > was going after Sirius was eliminated. > > Brenda Asian_lovr2: Here are some of my thoughts on the likelihood of Sirius leaving a Will. My thoughts go to the many long lonely hours Sirius spent at 12 Grimmauld Place. Nothing to do but think and worry; worry about himself and Harry. It's my prediction that in this dark and lonely time, Sirius would have been concerned about Harry's future. It is, afteral, Sirius's responsibility to look after Harry. Sirius would also, in those dark introspective hours, know that he wasn't able to do that job very well. So, I speculate that he made a hand written will which was witnessed by one or more Order members which directly or indirectly left his personal and the Black Family Estate to Harry. This would allow Siruis in that dark moment to feel like he was doing something worthwhile to safeguard Harry and provide for his future. Of course I can't prove this, we'll just have to way for the rest of the books to see if I'm right or even close. Restated; I picture Sirius trapped in that house which is a constant reminder of his own family and it's legacy, with nothing to do but worry about himself and Harry. Then combine that with his feeling that he was not able to do anything worthwhile for either Harry or the Order. Just out of desperation to do something, anything of value, I can picture him creating a Will, and savoring the brief limited moment of satisfaction that comes with know that a least Harry will be taken care of after Sirius is gone. Past discussion of this matter have established that inheritance automatically gives preference to nearest living first born male. That would be Draco, and I can see a nice sub-plot of Harry and Draco fighting over an estate that Harry doesn't actually want, but is determined not to let Draco have. I believe the next level of priority in inheritance would be a general distribution among nearest relatives; that would be the three cousins, Bellatrix, Andromeda, and Narcissa. Past discussion have also assumed that Bella is the oldest. One of my favorite highly speculative theory is that Sirius indeed gives the Estate to Harry, but names Mr. & Mrs. Weasley as the administrators and guardians of Harry. In exchange for this service, they are given a portion of the estate. The beauty of this is that it unites Harry and the Weasley into something close to a family, and at last, lifts the Weasleys out of poverty. I know it's just wishful thinking, but I like the idea. Back to a more central point - Sturgis Podmore. We don't know what Sturgis does for a living, so we don't know whether he would normally have business in the Ministry, either during normal hours or after hours. I could be that the DE's saw him as somewhat of a weak link and caught him outside the Ministry, and put the Imperius Curse on him, and forced him to break in and try to steal the Prophecy. He is a known friend of Dumbledore, and if caught, it would help discredit Dumbledore. So, I see the DE's first attempt as taking someone who was vulnerable and close to Dumbledore, but with no real connection to the Ministry. The next attempt was Bode, who had business in the Ministry and the Dept of Mysteries, who wouldn't have even had to sneak in after hours. So, first attempt is a random outsider, Sturgis; second attempt, an available insider, Bode. The Dark Lord is refining his plan. Third attempt, Harry; who is actually capable of removing the Prophecy from the shelf. This represent a more refinded plan that the two previous. Alternate Theory- We do know for a fact (sort of) that there is a spy in The Order; Snape. That is if we accept the assumption that Snape is a Double Agent; pretending to spy for both Dumbledore and Voldemort, but only truly being loyal to one. The problem with being a Double Agent is that at one point or another you will have to betray each side. At some point Snape will have to give Voldemort information about the Order, at another point he will have to give the Order information about Voldemort. AND, more importantly each side knows and accepts this. So, it could be Snape who betrayed Sturgis. This may have been with or without Sturgis's knowledge; with or without Dumbledore's knowledge. Sturgis may have been willing to take one for the team, or he may have been an innocent dupe. The fact remains, that if Snape is acting as a spy for Voldemort, sooner or later, he has to give Voldemort some usable information. Just a few thoughts. Steve/asian_lovr2 From ExSlytherin at aol.com Fri Jul 30 21:03:23 2004 From: ExSlytherin at aol.com (Mandy) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:03:23 -0000 Subject: Death and the Bad Boys. was: JKR Speaks: Arthur Weasly will NOT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108220 > > > Mandy here: > > > Really? Draco too? I see Draco surviving but severely > punished. > > > > > Voldemort 100% dead. > > > Bellatrix 100% dead > > > Snape 100% dead. You know it got to happen. Alla wrote: > > Snape.... Hmm. I still did not give up on the possibility of his > > survival and yes, Bella is toasted, absolutely. > sad1199 replies: > Am I the only Snape lover on this site? If I thought it would > help I would personally get on my knees and beg JKR to let him live. > I think that IF he dies (and I am totally against it!) it will be a > heroic death protecting Harry at the very end of it all. Mandy again: You're not alone in loving the character of Severus Snape. I adore Snape. Every inch of his nasty self (and way before Rickman's delightful contamination too) but I do believe he's going to die. He has to; it's the only way for him to find redemption. I do agree with you on the way Snape will die, it will be protecting Harry in some way. Cheers Mandy From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 30 21:08:12 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:08:12 -0000 Subject: What Kreacher knew - Additional - Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108221 I forgot to add this comment to my previous post. I think, although certainly can't prove, that the next time we see Kreacher, his head will be hanging on the wall. After Dumbledore interogated Kreacher, I think he realized that Kreacher was far to dangerous and unstable to have around, plus he probably hasn't picked up a tea tray in ages. So, Dumbledore sent him to join his ancestors; casualty of war. Can't imagine Hermione's reaction when she finds out. Well, actually I can and it isn't pretty. Just a thought. Steve/asian_lovr2 From patientx3 at aol.com Fri Jul 30 21:08:55 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:08:55 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy - VERY LONG In-Reply-To: <005e01c47630$16c714b0$87c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108222 DuffyPoo wrote: >> What I am saying is, none of the rest of the prophecy has yet been fulfilled, even though DD, the WW, LV himself, and the Keeper of the Prophecies believes it has been. << HunterGreen: I was only asking if the curse put on the orb was SPECIFICALLY about *Harry* or about "the ones the prophecy refers to", I think its the latter (especially since the Orb has been there presumably since before Harry was even born), but clearly you think its the former, which is fine, there's no clear evidence pointing either way. HOWEVER, the rest of the prophecy is already on its way to being fulfilled, so much so, that there is no chance that its Neville now. >> What happened after LV went to the Potters is only circumstantial evidence because he never got to the Longbottoms. If it had happened the other way round, and LV went to the Longbottoms first and killed baby Neville, we wouldn't be having this discussion. The problem exists, for me, because both kids who could have fulfilled the prophecy are still living. << HunterGreen: Which is true. And like I said in the last messege, whether or not its circumstanstial, whether or not it was really Lily who caused Voldemort to 'mark (harry) as equal', he still did and none of that has happened with Neville. >> There was nothing special about HP, there was something very special about Lily's sacrifice (whether or not it was simply her sacrificing herself for Harry or she had cast a counter spell. It is still Lily that protected HP, not anything about HP himself that saved him). << Perhaps there was nothing special about Harry back when he was a year old, but that doesn't mean there isn't now. We know he got a certain amount of Voldemort's powers (or, at least the Parseltongue ability), we know that he was able to through off the Imperious curse on almost the first try (which to me is *amazing*, considering how long it took Crouch Jr. and Sr. to be able to throw it off), he was able to learn the patronus charm -- and USE it against a Dementor -- when he was thirteen (which we are told is Newt level magic), and he beat Voldemort in the Priori Incantatem thing. And of course there's the issue of his mind link with Voldemort. I think those are not examples of a non-special wizard. >> The *mark* - the scar - is circumstantial...it was caused by the rebounding of the AK off Lily's protective sacrifice. The AK was just as strong bouncing back. << Yes, but until Voldemort 'marks' Neville in any way, that is enough to be considered fulfillment of the prophecy. >> [snip]HP is still protected by the charm DD placed on him/Petunia so that as long as HP can call the Dursley residence 'home' he will be protected by that Lily-Petunia-HP blood thing...the place where HP's mother's blood resides. (Since, in my theory here, HP is not the one anyway, this really changes nothing except now, if HP leaves Hogwarts or the Dursley residence, LV can kill him because Lily's protection, which saved him before, is now gone. LV can kill anyone else he wants to, as well.) << But if Voldemort is resistent to the blood protection, then there has to be a reason that Dumbledore still sent Harry back there to renew it in the summers after GoF and OotP. After OotP he would have been just as protected in Grimmauld Place, but its important to have the protection renewed....why? If it doesn't work against Voldemort any more, and Dumbledore still thinks its important to renew, then it must work against other people. Therefore, *Voldemort* is protected from other people as well (I don't think the charm would have to be renewed for him, because the blood he has is sort of 'frozen in time' from a time when the charm was active). I don't know why exactly why Voldemort having Harry's blood allows him to harm Harry (perhaps the protection doesn't work against suicide), but it does. Which means that he's not protected from Harry either. Ask yourself, why *isn't* Dumbledore trying to kill Voldemort during their duel in OotP? Surely he's not *that* noble? (we all know he does indeed want to kill Voldemort -- or at least get rid of him forever -- why build a teenager up to do it for him, if he could have done it right then?). If Dumbledore understood the nature of Voldemort having Harry's blood, then he wouldn't want to shoot a killing curse at Voldemort, it would only rebound and kill him. >> Because of what happened between LV and the Potters, DD and the WW *mistakenly* believe there is something special about HP. DD believes *mistakenly* that HP is the one the prophecy refers to. The Keeper of the Prophecy changes the card from "Dark Lord & (?)" to "Dark Lord & Harry Potter" because of the circumstantial evidence and the fact that old LV appears to have vanished. The reason HP can take the prophecy orb down is that the prophecy *now refers to him*. << That's only if you think the curse is put on specifically for the person on the label, which, as I said above, I don't agree with. I see what you mean about what happened in Godric's Hollow being misidentified as killing or vanquishing Voldemort, but that's not the only thing that puts Harry above Neville. They only both fit the prophecy in the first two lines, meaning both their parents defied him three times, and they were both born at the end of July. However, Voldemort 'marked' Harry (it wasn't intentional, but he--as in his wand -- still threw a curse at Harry which was the reason he has the scar on his head, Harry is "marked"). And I cannot see any reason why Neville would be the only one able to kill Voldemort (like I said, I CAN see a reason with Harry). Remember the prophecy doesn't CREATE cirmcumstances, it foretells them. (in this case, the foretelling created some of the cirmcumstances that lead the prophecy being fulfilled, but doesn't mean Neville or Harry automatically had some power to kill Voldemort just because the prophecy said so). >> The simple fact is Neville has never been tested against LV. He may have powers none of us, including Neville, know anything about. He *appears* an unlikely candidate for the job, but we know very little about him. His parents were, obviously, both very talented magically. They 'thrice defied' LV, like the Potters had. Neville has been, for five years, using a wand that didn't belong to him. Neville has, for most of his life been rather, 'kept down' by his Grandmother, I think. << Oh, I don't think for a second that Neville can't be a very powerful person if he had enough confidence (and I agree very much that a new wand might make a difference). But that doesn't mean he's 'the one'. The fact is there ISN'T any evidence or anything to point at that except that he COULD have been it for about a year after he was born. Voldemort, because he knew where the Potters were and not where the Longbottoms were, tried to kill Harry first, and even though it was something Lily did and not something Harry did, Voldemort ended up marking Harry with a scar and disappearing for 13 years. Nothing of the sort has happened to Neville. It doesn't really have much to do with being a strong wizard or not anyway. In that case *Dumbledore* would be the one with the power to vanquish Voldemort. The prophecy doesn't say 'the one who will vanquish the dark lord', but 'the one with the power to vanquish the dark lord'. Meaning that its not foretelling that some situation will happen where Dumbledore is not around and it ends up being Harry/Neville who kill Voldemort. Its saying that if Harry/Neville and Dumbledore were all in the same room with Voldemort, then Harry/Neville would have the 'power' to kill Voldemort and Dumbledore wouldn't. I'm saying that power is the fact that Voldemort's blood protection would not protect him from Harry. From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Fri Jul 30 21:14:35 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:14:35 -0000 Subject: Snape's part in death of Sirius - Revised Time In-Reply-To: <20040730143806.69067.qmail@web50101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108223 > Magda wrote: > Sorry but I really don't see your point, Neri. What was Snape > supposed to do? Force his way into Umbridge's office and take him > away at wandpoint to get him to 12GP? And why go to 12GP in the > first place? Neri: I can easily generate speculations what Snape could have done. It will all be speculations, since I don't know the details of the situation, but the point is that are many possibilities: 1. First and foremost, Snape should explain the situation to HQ and ask (or rather demand) assistance. 2. Sirius can apparate in Hogsmead and find Harry in the forest as a dog, running much faster than a Human and using his sense of smell to track Harry. Umbridge doesn't know about Sirius being an animagus. 3. Tonks can appear at Hogwarts as McGonagall ("it turned out my condition wasn't that bad after all") to help with marshaling the troops. DA members can be enlisted to locate Harry in the forest. 4. It is quite possible that Hagrid may be called from his hideout to search the forest. He should take care that Umbridge doesn't spot him, however. At the very least he can supply some good advice. 5. Shakelbolt can enlist all the ministry's Aurors to guard around the DoM ("we have information that Black might be seeking to steal Pluto"). They actually have good chances to catch the DEs even before Harry makes it to the DoM. 7. Moody or Aberforth should be able to locate DD in several hours. And so on and so forth. Possibilities always increase exponentially when there are several good people eager to help. > Magda wrote: > Once he was aware that they had gone to the forest, he went after > them and notified the Order on the chance that Harry had gone to the > MOM Neri: There were several hours in which he either didn't inquire about Harry's status, or knew what happened and didn't call HQ. I'm talking about what he could have done in these hours. > Magda wrote: > The other Order members would not have a lot of faith in Snape's > ability to handle a situation if he fired off all-points-bulletins to > rouse the troops every time Harry had a bad dream or vision. Neri: We are talking here about security issues and handling war emergencies. Especially when you're on the defense, you are expected to err twenty times on the side of caution, so you won't err once on the other side and lose people lives and possibly the war. You see Order member grumping about Moody's paranoia all the time, but they know he's the right man for the right job. The problem might be that Severus' teamwork sucks. Why can't he simply ask for assistance when he is alone in a difficult situation? Possibly he was a double agent too much time? Pippin wrote in: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/108169 It's possible that you are right, and Snape waited as long as he dared because he didn't really care what happened to Harry. But it's also possible that he waited as long as he dared because he didn't trust anyone at HQ except DD. Neri: Lets explore a bit the interesting speculation that Snape delayed contacting HQ because he didn't trust anyone except DD. First, why would Snape suspect someone in HQ at all? Possibly, because he concluded (or saw in Harry's mind) that Harry had managed to contact HQ before Umbridge caught him, and since Harry still believes Sirius is in the DoM someone must have gave him the wrong information. Snape is an experienced secret agent, very likely a double agent. This is exactly the kind of problems he can solve for breakfast. What should he do in such a case? The obvious solution is call DD, but in order for this speculation to work at all we have to assume that Snape doesn't have the means to call DD, or that DD is not available. What's next? Certainly NOT waiting and doing nothing. The fact that the mole in HQ took the risk of giving Harry the false information suggests that a dangerous plot is afoot right now at these very moments. The mole cannot hope to maintain his cover much longer now. He will be discovered as soon as Harry is back in contact and his testimony is crosschecked with Sirius' testimony. So the mole must have sacrificed his cover for the big prize, the very mission for which he exists. What would be this mission? At this point, Snape must be quite dense NOT to suspect that the plot might be luring Harry to the DoM. How would this be achieved? Snape might not be aware of the Thestrals in the forest (he really should ask Hagrid for some remedial CFMC, especially since DD seems to use the Thestrals for transportation). But even so there are other ways Harry might reach London. As Pippin noted, Harry might get to Hogsmead and use someone's fireplace. And even if the plot is NOT luring Harry to the DoM, it is still afoot at these very moments and must be critical enough for the mole to blow his cover for it. What should Snape do now? This problem is actually much easier than the poison bottles puzzler in SS/PS. As Pippin noted before, the one man Snape can trust not to be the mole is Sirius, since Sirius couldn't have told Harry that Sirius went to the DoM. So Snape has to contact HQ again and talk with Sirius. Then he should tell Sirius about Harry and the possible mole, and demand gathering immediately all the Order members that can be reached. These are probably Lupin, Moody, Tonks and Shaklebolt. It is extremely unlikely that all of them or even most of them are traitors. Snape would then demand that they will update as many as possible other Order members about the situation. At this stage the identity of the mole might already be revealed. If not, then some of the members (preferably more than two) should go look for DD. Shaklebolt and Tonks should contact MoM security and tell them to increase alert in general and especially around the DoM. In the meantime Sirius is the most trustable man, so he should aparate to the skirts of the forest and go look for Harry. The identity of the mole can wait until Harry is located. Snape can't know this part, but the mole would probably be uncovered very quickly (it will be very difficult for Kreacher to tell Sirius direct lies) and at that point in time the Order has at least an hour to locate Harry in the forest before he takes off to London, at least two hours to intercept him before he lands at the MoM, and a chance of finding DD even before that. So the problem is not that Snape can't trust HQ. Perhaps the problem is that Snape won't ask Sirius for assistance? Neri From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Jul 30 21:32:18 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:32:18 -0000 Subject: The Titlings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108224 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > Geoff: > > I think this is a question of semantics isn't it? I think what > > Chris means is that there is a "relationship" between Harry and > > another person rather than them being "relations". As we have said, > > Sirius is not a blood relation of Harry although being a godfather > > should imply a close relationship which brings him near to being a > > relation if you take my point. > > SSSusan again: > So do you see my point, Geoff? That we're really not a whole lot > nearer to figuring anything out from this pattern if the only clue > is "a person with a relationship to Harry". I had thought maybe > Chrisp was thinking of something quite specific when he > wrote "related to Harry", which is why I went fishing for > clarification in the first place. I wasn't arguing semantics; I was > trying to find out what Chrisp had in mind. > > Does that clarify? Geoff: Reverting to my point, Sirius was not a "relation" but had a "relationship" with Harry which was very close because of the godson/godfather connection. So, using Chris' hypothesis, we are seeking someone who is not related but has a very close relationship with Harry - almost that of a relative maybe..... "Now," he says, sucking on the end of his pencil, "who can we put down on the list?" From patientx3 at aol.com Fri Jul 30 21:35:47 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:35:47 -0000 Subject: Snapes Attitude towards the Students In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108225 HunterGreen previously: > > Other than the comment about Hermione's teeth, is there any other > > particular *incident* he needs to be punished for? SSSusan: >>I think the other time when Snape was clearly out of line was when Harry actually turned in a decent potion vial in OotP and Snape dropped it. "Whoops." The problem? Who could ever prove that: 1) he noticed Hermione had cleaned Harry's cauldron already; and 2) he dropped it on purpose? No one. So while I *believe* this is another incident where Snape deserved some censure, it would never wash.<< HunterGreen: Ah, that is a very good point. You are right, there is no explanation for Snape's actions there, besides him reacting to a personal problem he had recently had with Harry. He was out of line. The only thing I can say is that at this point Harry's grade at the end of the year was being determined by someone other than Snape, so him giving Harry a zero didn't mean much. Still, its not going to help Harry in potions if his work isn't graded. Hmm, I cannot (reasonably) argue that Snape has ever acted like a wonderful teacher to Harry, but I think that's only one case. If it were a normal school, Harry might be able to take potions from a different teacher (Snape teaching Harry is a conflict of interests, really), but that doesn't work here. Luckily for me, you disproved your own argument (o; While Snape was out of line, and to Harry and anyone else its clear he did that on purpose, IF someone did report him for it, he could just say "I dropped it by accident. Its not my fault Potter had already cleaned out his cauldroun." (yes, I know Hermione was the one who actually cleaned it out, but I can't see Snape bothering to make that distinction). Therefore my question stands: what incident could Snape be punished for? (btw SSSusan, and everyone else, I don't personally agree with Snape's methods at all, I just don't think he's done anything that violates the rules of his society) From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 30 22:13:54 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 22:13:54 -0000 Subject: The Titlings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108226 Geoff: >>> I think this is a question of semantics isn't it? I think what Chris means is that there is a "relationship" between Harry and another person rather than them being "relations". As we have said, Sirius is not a blood relation of Harry although being a godfather should imply a close relationship which brings him near to being a relation if you take my point.<<< SSSusan again: >> So do you see my point, Geoff? That we're really not a whole lot nearer to figuring anything out from this pattern if the only clue is "a person with a relationship to Harry". I had thought maybe Chrisp was thinking of something quite specific when he wrote "related to Harry", which is why I went fishing for clarification in the first place. I wasn't arguing semantics; I was trying to find out what Chrisp had in mind. Does that clarify?<< Geoff: > Reverting to my point, Sirius was not a "relation" but had > a "relationship" with Harry which was very close because of the > godson/godfather connection. So, using Chris' hypothesis, we are > seeking someone who is not related but has a very close > relationship with Harry - almost that of a relative > maybe..... "Now," he says, sucking on the end of his pencil, "who > can we put down on the list?" SSSusan: Okay, let's play the game. :-) With that definition, probably the entire Weasley clan, Hermione, the Dursleys, Lupin, Hagrid, and DD. Possibly Neville. Who do you think? And, chrisp, step in here any time and tell us if we're way off course! Siriusly Snapey Susan From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 30 22:43:26 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 22:43:26 -0000 Subject: Snape's part in death of Sirius - Revised Time In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108227 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > > Magda wrote: > > > Sorry but I really don't see your point, Neri. What was Snape > > supposed to do? Force his way into Umbridge's office and take him > > away at wandpoint to get him to 12GP? And why go to 12GP in the > > first place? > > Neri: > > I can easily generate speculations what Snape could have done. It > will all be speculations, since I don't know the details of the > situation, but the point is that are many possibilities: > Asian_lovr2: I do admire how well you have thought out this subject, and equally how well you've articulated it, unfortunately, although not surprisingly, I don't agree. Listed below are several HINDSIGHT solutions. They are very easy speculations after the fact, but we must judge Snape's actions based on what he knew at the time, and then temper what he knew with his personality and his attitude toward Harry. In my previous post (#108055), I listed the things Snape knew for a fact. In your post (#108146), you added that Snape did properly interpret Harry's cryptic 'He's at the place...' message; a point I will concede and gladly add to the list. In your post referenced above, you make several 'could be' 'might happen' suggestions, but again at that moment in time these various 'kidnapped by DE's' suggestion are not the type that would likely occur to any one. You might as well say Harry could be trampled by dinosaurs. Yes, it could be, but who would ever think of it. The fact is, that Harry is in Umbridge's custody, and as big a b... b... b... witch as she is, being in her custody is not cause for alarm or panic; concern-yes, worry-maybe, but panic-no. Side note: as much as I don't agree with you, I have to admit, you have stimulated one of the more interesting recent dicussion. Regardless of the outcome; it's been fun. > Neri continues: > > 1. First and foremost, Snape should explain the situation to HQ and > ask (or rather demand) assistance. > Asian_lovr2: Well, I've already said I believe Snape did explain the situation to a limited degree. How limited, however, we can't know. At this time, the key is Harry thinks Sirius is in danger; Snape has evidence the Sirius is Safe. Again, I concede that Snape realizes that Harry thinks Sirius is in the DoM being held by Voldemort. Although, I suspect he has reservations about his interpretation of what Harry said since it make very little practical sense; Sirius and Voldemort, the two most wanted men in the world, cavorting about the Ministy in broad daylight? That's a bit 'iffy'. And, since Sirius is safe, and Harry is at the school in the custody of Umbridge and the I-Squad, why would Snape need to ask for assistance? As I said before, Sirius is home, Harry is at school, all is right with the world. Although, I'm sure Snape was enjoying the idea that Harry was in deep trouble with Umbridge. Maybe even enjoying it a little too much. > Neri Continues: > > 2. Sirius can apparate in Hogsmead and find Harry in the forest ... > > 3. Tonks can appear at Hogwarts as McGonagall ... DA members can be > enlisted to locate Harry in the forest. > > 4. It is quite possible that Hagrid may be called from his hideout > to search the forest. > Asian_lovr2: But why? That's all great hingsight, but in the moment, why do they need to search the forest? Certainly, anyone in the forest is cause for concern, but Harry and Hermione are with an armed adult, School Professor, and high Ministry official. At this point, they aren't /lost/ in the forest, they are simply /in/ the forest. That doesn't sound like a situation that calls for an immediate search party. Only after Snape sends the Order to the Ministry to check on Harry, does he need help searching the forest. > Neri concludes this section: > > And so on and so forth. Possibilities always increase exponentially > when there are several good people eager to help. > > ...GBE...Great Big Edit... > > Neri Asian_lovr2: What we have to look for is Snape's 'OH CRAP!' moment. The moment when concern and urgency become panic and emergency. That 'oh crap' moment is the moment when Snape thinks to himself, 'Oh crap! You don't suppose the little brat actually tried to get to London?'. Until that point, which occurred very late in the day, there really was no /known/ need for action, no /known/ need to rally the troops. When Snape hits his 'Oh Crap' moment, he reacts accordingly. I will concede again that Snape's 'Oh Crap' moment may have been somewhat delayed by his own prejudices toward Harry, but not to the point of negligence. Conclusion; in hindsight, the list of things that could have and should have been done is endless, but working with what Snape had available to him, I think he did a fair job of it. Just a few thoughts. Steve/asian_lovr2 From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 30 23:27:21 2004 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 23:27:21 -0000 Subject: DD's greatest fear -The Scar Connection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108228 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > > SSSusan: > I sent a question about this offlist to Pippin, but then I realized > I'd like to hear others' thoughts on it, if anyone's interested in > responding. > > *IF* I've understood Pippin's 2nd sentence correctly [notice the Big > If], then she's saying that DD's great fear was that Voldy would > *force him* to attack Harry. > > Here's my question. Is this what DD's was talking about when he > said he couldn't make direct eye contact w/ Harry throughout this > school year? > > Or have I missed the point here altogether? :-| > > Can others weigh in on this, please? > > Siriusly Snapey Susan Asian_lovr2: I speculate (Ha, like you didn't already know that). To Pippin's quote, how about this scenerio; when Harry looks into Dumbledore's eyes he feels Voldemort rise up inside him and feels the urge to attack Dumbledore. Dumbledore acknowledges this, then says something to the effect that when they make eye contact, he detects traces of Voldemort in Harry's eyes (paraphrased). This eye contact seems to amplify Voldemort's presents in Harry. If sustained, Voldemort, through the scar link, may have actually been able to force Harry to attack Dumbledore. In that circumstance, Dumbledore would have been forced to defend himself against Harry; in a sense, attack or counter-attack Harry. Or restated, 'Voldy would *force him* (Dumbledore) to attack Harry'. Note; that's exactly what Voldy tried to do when he possessed Harry in the Atrium of the MoM; force Dumbly to attack Harry. To eye contact in general, I think this is in many part and at many levels. Partly, I think that Dumbledore was feinting an indifference toward Harry, hoping that this preceived indifference would imply to any awareness Voldemort might have that Harry and Dumbledore were merely Headmaster and student. Another aspect becomes very apparent when Arthur is attacked. A couple of instances occur where Harry and Dumbledore make eye contact, and Harry feels and Dumbledore sees Voldemort rising up in Harry. As I said before, the eye contact seems to act as an amplifier. It's possible when Harry and Dumbledore make eye contact, that Harry need for Dumbledore's approval and acknowledgement cause Harry to open himself emotionally to Dumbledore presents, that emotion and thought of Dumbledore is passed through the scar connection, and brings Dumbledore into Voldy's mind. Voldy hates Dumbledore with a passion and upon thinking of him, would immediately swell with that hatred and thoughts of all the horrible things he would like to do to Dumbledore. These thoughts are then transmitted back to Harry who feels Voldy's presents and anger inside himself. Now, if things had progressed to the point where Voldemort understood the scar connection, in those times when Voldy sensed Dumbledore's presence, he could attempt to force Harry to act out Voldemort feelings. At other times, this may have been Voldy's signal to concentrate and increase the clarity of the connection in order to spy on Dumbledore. We, as readers, see in the book how this 'scar connection' plays out, but attempting foresight, Dumbledore must anticipate these things, and there is no guarantee that when the 'two way' connection is made, Dumbledore will be aware of it. So, in foresight, he surely thinks it's best to keep his contact with Harry to an absolute minimum. Just a few thoughts. Steve/asian_lovr2 From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Fri Jul 30 15:00:46 2004 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 08:00:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DD's greatest fear (was: Snape's part in death of Sirius) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040730150046.40621.qmail@web50110.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 108229 > Pippin: > > Also out of *Dumbledore's* reach. The great fear he had was that > > Voldemort would force him to attack Harry. > SSSusan: > *IF* I've understood Pippin's 2nd sentence correctly [notice the > Big If], then she's saying that DD's great fear was that Voldy > would *force him* to attack Harry. Is this what DD was talking > about when he said he couldn't make direct eye contact w/ Harry > throughout this school year? I thought it had to do w/ a > fear of Voldy *learning* things if he was possessing Harry and > Harry was looking directly into DD's eyes...or that if Voldy was > possessing Harry, then he [V] might force HARRY to attack DD. We have to remember that Dumbledore and the Order didn't know what was happening with Harry and Voldemort. The best they could come up with was that Harry was somehow being "possessed" by Voldemort - which gave Harry some very bad hours when he overheard this at St. Mungo's. With this in mind, I think that Dumbledore and the Order thought it was at least possible that Voldemort could take over Harry (like he takes over Nagini) and use him to physically kill Dumbledore who would have to defend himself by attacking Harry - not killing Harry, but Dumbledore is a powerful wizard and even pulling his magical punches might do significant damage to a teenager. Magda From bcbgx6 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 30 23:57:51 2004 From: bcbgx6 at yahoo.com (Brian) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 23:57:51 -0000 Subject: HPB guess Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108230 How about Sturgis Podmore or Argus Filch. Filch: He's a squib. According to Ron, they're very rare. Could this suggest a genealogical twist? Filch's squibhood is one of Harry's discoveries in CoS. Podmore: Sir Nicholas is rejected from the Headless Hunt by Sir Patrick Delaney-Podmore. The titles of Nick and Patrick could be evidence of a wizarding gentry, or they could be evidence of "half- bloods" with muggle landed titles. What do you think? My apologies if this has been covered. I tried to check archives but didn't find any previous mention. If you know the post numbers, let me know. Regards, Brian From Batchevra at aol.com Sat Jul 31 00:01:52 2004 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:01:52 EDT Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:=20[HPforGrownups]=20Re:=20Snape=E2=80=99s=20access?= =?UTF-8?Q?=20to=20DD=20office=3F=20(was:=20Snape's=20part=20in=20de...?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108231 In a message dated 7/30/04 2:25:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mnaperrone at aol.com writes: > > > Neri: > > > As another interesting subthread from the original discussion, I > > > believe Snape did have access to DD's office when DD was not in > > > Hogwarts. The reason is that in the first Occlumency lesson, > Harry > > > recognizes the Pensieve Snape uses as DD's Pensieve. The last > (and > > > memorable) Occlumency lesson is cosiderable time after DD left > > > Hogwarts, and his office is said to be shut (Umbridge certainly > > > doesn't manage to get in), but the Pensieve is still in Snape's > > > possession. But in Ch. 37 when Harry is sent back to DD's office > > from the MoM, he sees the Pensieve in DD's office. How did it got > > there and what does this signifies? > > > > > > > >Ally: It sounded to me from DD's discussion with Harry that he was well- aware that Snape stopped occlumency. I took this to mean that he and Snape had already had a discussion about the lessons, before he spoke to Harry, so perhaps Snape returned it to him then. As someone else indicated, the fact that Harry was able to go into the office suggested that DD had already been back.< There is nothing in canon that says it is DD's Pensieve except what Harry thinks. Remember he has only seen one Pensieve before and doesn't know how many there are and if he is correct. IMHO, I think that Snape and DD each has their own Pensieve. IMHO, DD hasn't come back to Hogwarts until after the fight in the DOM. In fact, one of the portraits says that it has been dull since DD had gone away. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From liz_carver at insightbb.com Fri Jul 30 19:25:50 2004 From: liz_carver at insightbb.com (Liz) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:25:50 -0000 Subject: Is (was) Harry a squib? (or born a not-so-great wizard?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108232 When Lord V came after baby Harry in Godric's Hollow, he had decided what child to attack because of his own racist attitudes and feelings about his own half-muggle self combined with his presumptions about the prophecy, having been told only part of it. And because of these presumptions and decisions Lord V made, is it possible that the otherwise "ordinary" prophecy was turned into a "self-fulfilling prophecy"? What I mean is, if he'd decided to go after Neville rather than Harry, perhaps the same thing would have happened - Neville would have had some familial protection that kept him alive and he would have been swept off to a hiding place until Hogwarts age, and Lord V would have gone slitering off to Albania to hide-out, just as he did in the actual timeline. In the meantime, Harry and the Potters would've continued living hidden away in Godric's Hollow - but with one difference: that Harry would have been weaker wizard or perhaps even a squib. I say this because, I wonder if it had been possible that Lord V's attack that so famously transferred powers to Harry, gave Harry the *only* powers he would ever have had... ? (Not that it matters now of course, because HP has all or more of the power he'd ever want!) And if the prophecy is self-fulfilling, no matter what child LV attacked, the child marked as his equal is going to have all the power needed (whether born into him or transferred to him by LV) to work through to the end of the prophecy, which states that one will kill the other. That means that if little Neville had been attacked, he might have had all those Slytherin-esque powers transferred to him, like Harry did, and would have been a wizard of the quality that Harry is to this day, and Harry, on the other hand, would have been the one in the shadow of the famous-er boy? Any takers? "Liz" From liz_carver at insightbb.com Fri Jul 30 19:41:51 2004 From: liz_carver at insightbb.com (Liz) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:41:51 -0000 Subject: Neville and potions- an unpopular opinion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108233 HunterGreen: > > As for *suffering*, how do you know he hasn't suffered already and > that's why he has such a poisonous personality? At age eleven he > already knew more dark curses than most seventh-years, why is > that? Why was he SO fascinated with that? > Snape is already an unhappy person, there's not much IMO that > could be done to him that would make a big impression. To add to the discussion, I've found this from the Godric's Hollow quick-quotes site, from early in 2003, a live audience chat with JKR and Stephen Fry (the narrator for the audio books)... it proves interesting about Snape's direction in future books: SF: there's something rather sad about Snape as well, something very lonely and you kind of, although he turns out to of course have such a wicked past ... in the first book we thought he was the evil one ... and slowly we just get this idea that maybe he's not so bad after all JKR: Yeees. You shouldn't think he's too nice, let me just say that. SF: Right I shall bear that in mind. Worth watching Serverus Snape JKR: He's worth keeping and eye on, definitely "Liz" From eabarboza at yahoo.com Fri Jul 30 20:07:07 2004 From: eabarboza at yahoo.com (eabarboza) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:07:07 -0000 Subject: Death and the Bad Boys In-Reply-To: <002c01c4761c$902d8280$87c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108234 > DuffyPoo now: > We also have LV's own words. First he told his DEs '...but still, I was alive. What I was, even I do not know...I , who have gone further than anybody along the path that leads to immortality. You know my goal...to conquer death. And now, I was tested, and it appeared that one or more of my experiments had worked...for I had not been killed, though the curse should have done it.' After more conversation about trying to exist and finding people to possess, etc., he talks about finding Quirrell, etc., he says 'But I was willing to embrace *mortal* life again, before chasing immortal. I set my sights lower...I would settle for my old body back again, and my old strength.' I think we have a *mortal* or at least more mortal LV that we had when he AK'd Harry. Has he had time, in his desperate search for the prophecy, to spend time on creating immortality again? > Thanks for listing those quotes...very useful. I don't think he has had the time or the energy to search for immortality. He has a whole war to plan. I think he should be focusing on recruiting new DE and regaining his physical strength. I think his magical powers remained in tact though, so he is very capable of inflicting more terror and pain to the WW. "eabarboza" From gopotter2004 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 31 00:18:08 2004 From: gopotter2004 at yahoo.com (gopotter2004) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 00:18:08 -0000 Subject: Happy Birthday Harry! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108235 As expected, Happy Birthday Harry has appeared on jkrowling.com... Now, it's still July 30th here, so this puts to rest the idea that she had Neville's date wrong-- she must have meant Neville's birthday to be the 30th. A vaguely bummed becky, who is going to explore the site looking for presents... From maritajan at yahoo.com Fri Jul 30 20:34:12 2004 From: maritajan at yahoo.com (Marita Jan) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:34:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Neville and the Prophecy - VERY LONG In-Reply-To: <005e01c47630$16c714b0$87c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: <20040730203412.49668.qmail@web12108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 108236 > DuffyPoo now: [snip] > LV only knows the first part of the prophecy, remember, 'the one with > the power to vanquish the DL approaches, born to those who have thrice > defied him, born as the seventh month dies.' He was going to kill all > the kids born at the end of July to parents who had thrice defied him. > That means HP and NL. What's interesting to me is that, in SS, Voldy didn't try to KILL Harry until he refused to join him.... The first night in the Gryff tower, Harry dreams that Quirrell's turban is trying to get him to transfer to Slytherin. Voldy tells him personally, from the back of Q's head, that there's no need for Harry to die like his mother...wish I had the book here to find the quote. So what does that say regarding what Voldy knew about the prophecy? Just makes me think..... MJ ===== -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Need a real estate professional? Visit my site at www.maritabush.com With Marita, great service comes first.....and lasts! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sat Jul 31 00:27:13 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 00:27:13 -0000 Subject: DD's greatest fear -The Scar Connection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108237 SSSusan: > > *IF* I've understood Pippin's 2nd sentence correctly [notice the > > Big If], then she's saying that DD's great fear was that Voldy > > would *force him* to attack Harry. > > > > Here's my question. Is this what DD's was talking about when he > > said he couldn't make direct eye contact w/ Harry throughout > > this school year? > > > > Or have I missed the point here altogether? :-| > > > > Can others weigh in on this, please? Asian_lovr2 weighed in: > I speculate (Ha, like you didn't already know that). > > To Pippin's quote, how about this scenerio; when Harry looks into > Dumbledore's eyes he feels Voldemort rise up inside him and feels > the urge to attack Dumbledore. Dumbledore acknowledges this, then > says something to the effect that when they make eye contact, he > detects traces of Voldemort in Harry's eyes (paraphrased). This > eye contact seems to amplify Voldemort's presents in Harry. If > sustained, Voldemort, through the scar link, may have actually > been able to force Harry to attack Dumbledore. In that > circumstance, Dumbledore would have been forced to defend himself > against Harry; in a sense, attack or counter-attack Harry. Or > restated, 'Voldy would *force him* (Dumbledore) to attack Harry'. > Note; that's exactly what Voldy tried to do when he possessed > Harry in the Atrium of the MoM; force Dumbly to attack Harry. And Magda add: > With this in mind, I think that Dumbledore and the Order thought it > was at least possible that Voldemort could take over Harry (like he > takes over Nagini) and use him to physically kill Dumbledore who > would have to defend himself by attacking Harry - not killing > Harry,but Dumbledore is a powerful wizard and even pulling his > magical punches might do significant damage to a teenager. SSSusan again: Thank you both for these interpretations. NOW it all makes sense! That little "attack back" or "counter-attack" made my brain finally click with understanding. So did you guys all have this figured out all along--that this "I might be forced to [counter-]attack Harry" was DD's great fear all through OotP? Was it obvious all along? Sigh.... My deductive & reasoning powers often leave quite a bit to be desired. Siriusly Snapey Susan, who's grateful for the insight she gets from this list! From eabarboza at yahoo.com Fri Jul 30 20:44:13 2004 From: eabarboza at yahoo.com (eabarboza) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:44:13 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy - VERY LONG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108238 DuffyPoo wrote: > Harry is considered to be *the one.* > > But.... > > What if DD is wrong? He believes it and because be believes it, > we believe it too. We believe, because DD believes, that LV has > marked HP as *the one* by the curse that rebounded, leaving the > scar. We believe, because DD believes, that LV *chose* HP because > they are both half-bloods. But what if those beliefs are wrong? > > If LV went to the Longbottoms first and killed Neville, we would > *know* beyond any doubt, that HP is *the one,* but because HP is > attacked first, and LV is *vanquished* we only assume HP is the > one. Like everyone else assumes he is the one because the curse > rebounded. I agree that this theory is very probable, but I still don't think that Harry is not the ONE. Prophecies come true because of how people interpret them. Voldemort interpreted the first part of the prophecy to mean that a great wizard will be born that will have the power to vanquish him. He had a choice to pick between Harry or Neville. He chose Harry because Harry was a half-blood like him. He chose the one that he thought would be a great wizard like him. His decision and his actions put the prophecy in motion. I believe that if that prophecy was never read or heard by anybody, then nothing would have happened. What is that phrase...."The power of suggestion"? Voldemort wouldn't have branded Harry as his equal and inadvertantly given him powers that he would not have had otherwise. Voldemort set the prophecy in motion. Harry is the ONE simply because Voldemort chose him, not Neville. -Erika From sixsunflowers at yahoo.com Fri Jul 30 21:54:39 2004 From: sixsunflowers at yahoo.com (Bill and Diana Sowers) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:54:39 -0000 Subject: What Kreacher knew - Additional - Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108239 "Steve" wrote: > I think, although certainly can't prove, that the next time we see > Kreacher, his head will be hanging on the wall. > > After Dumbledore interrogated Kreacher, I think he realized that > Kreacher was far too dangerous and unstable to have around, plus he > probably hasn't picked up a tea tray in ages. So, Dumbledore sent > him to join his ancestors; casualty of war. If Dumbledore had any reason to do away with Kreature he would have done so in Book 5 when he interrogated him. I believe he spoke of Kreature in the present tense to Harry so I can't imagine him doing this. I would guess that Kreature might move in with the Malfoys. Narcissa is a relative and the family believes in the system of enslaving house elves that Kreature was brought up in. Bill From meidbh at yahoo.com Fri Jul 30 23:49:04 2004 From: meidbh at yahoo.com (meidbh) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 23:49:04 -0000 Subject: Happy Birthday Harry!!! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108240 Happy Birthday Harry!!! from Meidbh x (So excited that I got to say this first!) From meidbh at yahoo.com Sat Jul 31 00:04:01 2004 From: meidbh at yahoo.com (meidbh) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 00:04:01 -0000 Subject: Three People in the Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108241 David wrote: "What if there are three people referred to in the prophecy? On her website, JKR says she worded the prophecy 'extremely carefully'. "What if: The one = Harry Potter The Dark Lord = Lord Voldemort The other = Neville Longbottom "JKR writes: 'and either (*the one* OR the *Dark Lord*) must die at the hand of THE OTHER for neither can live while THE OTHER survives...'" Samnanya wrote: "But like all hidden clues, Neville's ability will save the the Wizarding World in Book 7, when he is able to stand up to HarryMort WHEN NOONE ELSE CAN." Meidbh replies: This theory is wonderful - so good I hope I forget it so I can still be surprised when I reach book seven! BUT but but... Harry is the one who can destroy VM ("the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...the dark Lord will mark him as his equal" OoP). Note the wording "THE one...approaches" not "A one...approaches". Only one person can destroy VM and that person is marked by him. It can only be Harry. If the "other" were to be a third person then suggesting that neither Harry nor VM can live while this person survives gives this person the power to destroy VM too. If the "other" is a third peson then the final part of the prophecy should read "both must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives". I love the theory BUT the grammar and the logic don't fit... I think Neville is definitely one to watch but there is nothing to suggest that he has the power to vanquish Voldy. It is Harry who possesses "the force more wonderful and terrible than death" "the force...(VM) detests". Meidbh :-) From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sat Jul 31 00:05:53 2004 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:05:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's part in death of Sirius - Revised Time In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040731000553.62406.qmail@web50108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 108242 >> Magda wrote: >> Once he was aware that they had gone to the forest, he went after >> them and notified the Order on the chance that Harry had gone to >> the MOM > > Neri: > There were several hours in which he either didn't inquire about > Harry's status, or knew what happened and didn't call HQ. I'm > talking about what he could have done in these hours. Neri, I went to a great deal of effort - twice - to point out that once Snape left Umbridge's office and found out that Sirius was safe, he had no reason to think that Umbridge was going to do anything more than hand out detentions and send everyone off to bed. Why should he have enquired about Harry's status? To a certain extent, we'll just have to accept that this is the way JKR wrote it. I certainly have no trouble believing that she didn't plan it down to even the hour when she plotted and wrote it. Magda __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From lorelei3dg at yahoo.com Sat Jul 31 00:20:18 2004 From: lorelei3dg at yahoo.com (lorelei3dg) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 00:20:18 -0000 Subject: Shared Pensieves? (was Re: Snape's access to DD office?) In-Reply-To: <12e.479d9a9e.2e3c0cf5@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108243 Sherri wrote: > I honestly cannot see sharing Pensieves - would you want to give > someone else access to your memories? Although - if it IS > Dumbledore's Pensieve that Snape is using, it says a VERY great > deal about the depth of Dumbledore's trust and belief in him! I saw the Pensieve as a temporary memory-holder: the user takes the memories out of his or her mind for a time and then replaces them when done. In that sense, people could easily share a Pensieve, handing over the empty vessel to the next person to use. Lorel From spinelli372003 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 30 12:34:37 2004 From: spinelli372003 at yahoo.com (spinelli372003) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:34:37 -0000 Subject: Bloodlines (Re: Lily's Family) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108244 > HunterGreen: > I'm thinking it's just a typo. Why would their family be so *proud* > to have a witch in the family if one or both of Lily/Petunia's > parents was a witch or wizard already? Wouldn't they *expect* to > have magical children? Lily has been stated as being muggle-born > many times (even once to her face in the pensieve flashback and she > doesn't refute it). In response to the thread about Lily's family being excited about having a witch in the family: It could be that they are not witches or wizards themselves but that they have "heard" for years about Great Aunt Whatzit that was able to tell the future or read palms or whatever her specialty was, and they are excited that Lily has the gift, whatever it is. Bloodlines can skip generations. It is like a blonde woman who marries a black man and has three children with beautiful cream-colored skin. Generations go by and no dark skin appears. A hundred years later, the blondest descendent of this couple marries a blonde man and has the darkest-skinned child that God has ever created. It is in the bloodlines, and while it may have skipped a few generations, there it is. Everyone knows it is in the family, but no one knows when it may appear. While some family members may be excited, others are not. Sherry From spinelli372003 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 30 12:39:19 2004 From: spinelli372003 at yahoo.com (spinelli372003) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:39:19 -0000 Subject: Elvin Blood (Re: Lily's Family) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108245 sad1199 replies: > Elves. Think back to the Mirror of Erised. Little old guy, knobby > knees, green eyes... Lily's and Harry's green eyes... > A magic stronger than wizard's stopped Voldemaort's curse... I > believe that somewhere in Harry's ancestry is elvin blood. I have my own theory about the Harry having elfin blood idea. Could Harry be related somehow to elves, and if so, could that be why there is such a strong connection with Dobby? After all, why did Dobby come and try to stop him? It's not like the Malfoys tried to make him do it, but at the end of CoS, Dobby uses his power to protect Harry. Why? sherry (My post is in response to a long line of replies not sure who the original post came from but the part above is what I am responding to.) From gopotter2004 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 31 01:14:54 2004 From: gopotter2004 at yahoo.com (gopotter2004) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 01:14:54 -0000 Subject: Shared Pensieves? (was Re: Snape's access to DD office?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108246 > I saw the Pensieve as a temporary memory-holder: the user takes the > memories out of his or her mind for a time and then replaces them > when done. In that sense, people could easily share a Pensieve, > handing over the empty vessel to the next person to use. > > Lorel What I have always found curious is why wizards don't seem to use them in trials to prove innocence (or guilt). I suppose it's because the remember-er could skew the memories (something that I feel may have affected Harry's view of his father in Snape's mind.) Becky From snow15145 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 31 01:17:21 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 01:17:21 -0000 Subject: Is (was) Harry a squib? (or born a not-so-great wizard?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108247 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Liz" wrote: > When Lord V came after baby Harry in Godric's Hollow, he had decided > what child to attack because of his own racist attitudes and > feelings about his own half-muggle self combined with his > presumptions about the prophecy, having been told only part of it. > > And because of these presumptions and decisions Lord V made, is it > possible that the otherwise "ordinary" prophecy was turned into > a "self-fulfilling prophecy"? > > What I mean is, if he'd decided to go after Neville rather than > Harry, perhaps the same thing would have happened - Neville would > have had some familial protection that kept him alive and he would > have been swept off to a hiding place until Hogwarts age, and Lord V > would have gone slitering off to Albania to hide-out, just as he did > in the actual timeline. In the meantime, Harry and the Potters > would've continued living hidden away in Godric's Hollow - but with > one difference: that Harry would have been weaker wizard or perhaps > even a squib. I say this because, I wonder if it had been possible > that Lord V's attack that so famously transferred powers to Harry, > gave Harry the *only* powers he would ever have had... ? (Not that > it matters now of course, because HP has all or more of the power > he'd ever want!) > "Liz" >Snipped< Snow: This idea that Voldemort had given any and all of Harry's magical capabilities to him has been and still is controversial. I see too much referencing to Harry's magical capabilities belonging to or inherited by James for this to be true. Sirius saying, you fly as well as your father and you truly are your father's son. Harry is the youngest quiddich player in a century. Harry can produce a patronus, not just any patronus, but one that looks like his father's animagus figure. Harry is very adept at Defense against the Dark Arts even to the point of teaching it, which appears to be one of James fortes, defense against it. Harry's "magical" abilities appear to be based with his parents not Voldemort. Harry asks Dumbledore in SS, does that mean he (Voldemort) put a bit of himself in me. Dumbledore's answer was it appears so. The most we can conclude so far as to what Voldemort's contributions are would be parceltongue, possibly the aggressive behavior Harry has exhibited since Voldemort's bodily return and the significant Slytherin characteristics that the sorting hat had seen. None of these examples, with the possible exception of parceltongue, are a magical ability. So what magical ability does Harry have that can be directly related to Voldemort? I don't see any that would assure me that it came directly from Voldemort. Therefore in conclusion I will have to support that the portion of Voldemort that was transferred to Harry was not his magical abilities but his Slytherin attributes. Snow: From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sat Jul 31 01:34:12 2004 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:34:12 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Shared Pensieves? (was Re: Snape's access to DD office?) Message-ID: <8d.10fef982.2e3c5114@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 108248 In a message dated 7/30/2004 9:14:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lorelei3dg at yahoo.com writes: I saw the Pensieve as a temporary memory-holder: the user takes the memories out of his or her mind for a time and then replaces them when done. In that sense, people could easily share a Pensieve, handing over the empty vessel to the next person to use. ============== Sherrie here: Whereas I see it as serving both long- and short-term functions - like a small round filing cabinet. Some files are temporary - others are more permanent "residents", because they aren't everyday-useful, yet, because they might come in handy at some later date, in connection with something that comes up down the road, you don't want to shred them. So you ut them in the cabinet until you DO need them, just to get them off your desk; but when the boss comes through ranting for them, you can produce them. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From enigma_only at hotmail.com Sat Jul 31 01:38:42 2004 From: enigma_only at hotmail.com (fiondavhar) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 01:38:42 -0000 Subject: Chamber of Secrets - The Unexplained Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108249 Like many others here, I have just re-read Chamber of Secrets, looking for clues and the elusive "discovery" Harry made that will be so important to the 6th book. I decided to focus on the apparently insignificant things that could become hugely significant given the right circumstances. Here are some of the things that stuck out to me: 1) The scorch marks on the floor after the first attack. - Obviously, these might have been caused by the Basilisk, but they were not mentioned at any of the other attack scenes. Could there be any other reason for their presence, or the lack of explanation in regards to them? I for one don't recall "leaves scorch marks on the ground" as being part of the description of the basilisk. 2) Aragog's blindness. - I couldn't discern the significance of this. Why would it matter that Aragog be blind? 3) Tom Riddle's "bravery". - When Harry and Tom speak in the chamber of secrets, Tom says that he was considered to be very brave. The word is stressed, actually, written in italics (pg 230, Canadian soft-cover). My question is, since Tom was implying that he was thought to be very brave BEFORE having captured Hagrid, WHY was he considered brave? What sort of things had he done to earn that reputation, and could they be important to the plot of the story? 4) The use of the word "ancestor" as opposed to "descendant" in regards to Riddle and Slytherin, in Harry's conversation with Dumbledore. - On page 245 of the Canadian soft-cover edition, Dumbledore tells Harry that Voldemort is the last remaining ancestor of Salazar Slytherin. The last remaining ANCESTOR. Not DESCENDANT. Is this a flint? Or could there be some strange reversal of time at work? Because, of course, an ancestor is someone you are descended from - so Tom should be Slytherin's DESCENDANT, not his ancestor. Hmmm. Anyone have any thoughts on any of these? Bonny From patientx3 at aol.com Sat Jul 31 01:50:10 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 01:50:10 -0000 Subject: Is (was) Harry a squib? (or born a not-so-great wizard?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108250 Snow wrote: >> This idea that Voldemort had given any and all of Harry's magical capabilities to him has been and still is controversial. I see too much referencing to Harry's magical capabilities belonging to or inherited by James for this to be true. Sirius saying, you fly as well as your father and you truly are your father's son. Harry is the youngest quiddich player in a century. << HunterGreen: That could just an *ability* rather than a specific magical ability. It most likely requires magical blood to be able to fly a broom, but being able to be a great seeker requires good reflexes, good instincts, good aiming ability and good vision (not as in eyesight, but as in an aptitude for focusing your eyes on something small and far away -- concentration, I suppose). Those aren't *specific* to being magical. Squib!Harry could have inhereted all of these traits from James, and then the ability to fly a broom came from Voldemort. >> Harry can produce a patronus, not just any patronus, but one that looks like his father's animagus figure. << But Harry can produce a patronus at age *thirteen* which is rather strong magic for someone so young. Having strong enough magic to produce one with only a few months (weeks?) of training, could have come from Voldemort, but the actual patronus would still come from Harry, and would still take on a form determined by Harry (I'm not sure how the patronus form is decided, but it is a reflection of the wizard that casts it and the Stag is a reflection of Harry through his father, whether or not the *magic* behind it came from James or not). >> Harry is very adept at Defense against the Dark Arts even to the point of teaching it, which appears to be one of James fortes, defense against it. Harry's "magical" abilities appear to be based with his parents not Voldemort. << I don't know about that. Leadership qualities came from both James and Lily, but that's not 'magical'. And we don't know how good James was in specifically DADA...it could easily be that transfiguration was his best subject (based on that being what his wand was the best for, and that he became an animagus when he was fifteen). James and Lily were involved in the fight against Voldemort, but that doesn't mean they had a specific aptitude for DADA, it reflects their personality more than their magic abilities. >> the most we can conclude so far as to what Voldemort's contributions are would be parceltongue [snip] So what magical ability does Harry have that can be directly related to Voldemort? I don't see any that would assure me that it came directly from Voldemort. << I would say that Harry is stronger than other wizards his age. As in, when it comes to something like learning the patronus charm, or throwing off the imperious curse he learns it rather fast. Even with occulmency, he made *some* progress when he was actually trying to learn it (both with the stinging hex and the rebounding charm he did that let him see Snape's memories). Enough that *Snape* of all people actually gave him a compliment ['Well, for a first attempt that was not as poor as it might have been...' pg 535, US ed.]. Of course both of his parents were, by all accounts, powerful and clever wizards, so Harry doesn't necessarily *have* to have outside influence to explain his magical apititude. I like the theory of Harry being a squib except for the Voldemort alf of him, because that would mean he'd have to sacrifice his own powers to destroy Voldemort. (then again, I like bittersweet endings) But seeing how rare squibs are supposed to be, I don't know how likely it is. From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Sat Jul 31 01:52:15 2004 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 01:52:15 -0000 Subject: Can Lucius Talk His Way Out of This One? In-Reply-To: <20040730131018.78572.qmail@web90001.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108251 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sp. sot." wrote: > > "M.Clifford" wrote: > > Valky then: > We must remember that our source for the information that Fudge has fled comes from The Quibbler, maybe the crumple Horned Snorkack > scared him away. > My point is, it is still possible that while it seems we have a new Minister in HBP, that Fudge may be ousted through some other means. > > > Griffin782002 replied: > > I still support the idea that Fugde was a D.E. And as some fellow members have pointed out, the night L.V. returned, he should have felt his Mark burn. Well yes, but what about the case of denying the obvious. I posted a message about H.P. and its relation with Ancient Mythologies. Some replied by saying, more or less, that I can't see the obvious (about Sirius's death). Well, what about Fudge making the same thoughts (if I am wrong about Sirius fate). > Sorry if my post sounds a bit aggressive. > Valky now: No not at all Griffin! I am in denial about Sirius too. Well a little bit anyway :( I also support the notion that Fudge might have an ESE side and may very likely be fleeing the ministry or LV's wrath. All I really mean by my post is that we can't *actually* be sure that Fudges flight is the way he is ousted as MoM, the Quibbler is notoriously inaccurate a source, and I don't think we have *officially* declared the JKR website flash features as canon, most certainly not here anyway as discussion of anything bar the actual canon text on the site in the context of the books is OT. **Incedentally, I think we should consider discussing wether the ads are as canon as, say, the FAQ because it really seems to me that they are.** So, on that note, I guess I have said all I needed to say. I never intended my post to debase the premise of the ESEFudge theories, just to point out that the source of that one particular peice of ? canon? deserves some scrutiny, that is *if* we call it actual canon. From witchypooh67 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 31 01:41:16 2004 From: witchypooh67 at yahoo.com (Kelly Duhon) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:41:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HPB guess In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040731014116.60383.qmail@web52201.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 108252 Brian wrote: How about Sturgis Podmore or Argus Filch. Filch: He's a squib. According to Ron, they're very rare. Could this suggest a genealogical twist? Filch's squibhood is one of Harry's discoveries in CoS. Podmore: Sir Nicholas is rejected from the Headless Hunt by Sir Patrick Delaney-Podmore. The titles of Nick and Patrick could be evidence of a wizarding gentry, or they could be evidence of "half- bloods" with muggle landed titles. Now Kelly: Brian, interesting theory, but I have been wondering about Neville. My "gut" tells me he will be a very big part of the end to this story, but I don't know if I agree with the idea that he is "the one" rather than Harry. Perhaps Harry needs help from the HBP (Neville?) to defeat LV. What do you think? Kelly From snow15145 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 31 02:18:32 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 02:18:32 -0000 Subject: Is (was) Harry a squib? (or born a not-so-great wizard?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108253 Snow wrote (previous): >> This idea that Voldemort had given any and all of Harry's magical capabilities to him has been and still is controversial. I see too much referencing to Harry's magical capabilities belonging to or inherited by James for this to be true. Sirius saying, you fly as well as your father and you truly are your father's son. Harry is the youngest quiddich player in a century. << HunterGreen: That could just an *ability* rather than a specific magical ability. It most likely requires magical blood to be able to fly a broom, but being able to be a great seeker requires good reflexes, good instincts, good aiming ability and good vision (not as in eyesight, but as in an aptitude for focusing your eyes on something small and far away -- concentration, I suppose). Those aren't *specific* to being magical. Squib!Harry could have inhereted all of these traits from James, and then the ability to fly a broom came from Voldemort. Snow again: James was not a seeker he was a chaser (per a JKR interview). Sirius actually says you "fly" as well as your father to Harry. Furthermore we have never heard of Voldemort having a significant flying ability. Snow previous: >> Harry can produce a patronus, not just any patronus, but one that looks like his father's animagus figure. << HunterGreen replied: But Harry can produce a patronus at age *thirteen* which is rather strong magic for someone so young. Having strong enough magic to produce one with only a few months (weeks?) of training, could have come from Voldemort, but the actual patronus would still come from Harry, and would still take on a form determined by Harry (I'm not sure how the patronus form is decided, but it is a reflection of the wizard that casts it and the Stag is a reflection of Harry through his father, whether or not the *magic* behind it came from James or not). Snow again: Yes, it is rather young to produce a patronus but his father becoming an animagus at the age of fifteen, which is also extremely young if not an impossible feat for a youngster, would be very accomplished as well. Also the fact that he had the ability to teach his friends one of whom was not of the highest standard of learning. Snow previous: >> Harry is very adept at Defense against the Dark Arts even to the point of teaching it, which appears to be one of James fortes, defense against it. Harry's "magical" abilities appear to be based with his parents not Voldemort. << HunterGreen replied: I don't know about that. Leadership qualities came from both James and Lily, but that's not 'magical'. And we don't know how good James was in specifically DADA...it could easily be that transfiguration was his best subject (based on that being what his wand was the best for, and that he became an animagus when he was fifteen). James and Lily were involved in the fight against Voldemort, but that doesn't mean they had a specific aptitude for DADA, it reflects their personality more than their magic abilities. Snow: James and Lily would have to have had been extremely talented at defense against the dark arts to have defied Voldemort three times and still, at that point, been alive to tell the story (we haven't heard). From meidbh at yahoo.com Sat Jul 31 01:44:06 2004 From: meidbh at yahoo.com (meidbh) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 01:44:06 -0000 Subject: DD's howler to Petunia (Re: New JKR FAQ Poll: Which is significant?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108254 Carol writes: "So that leaves the Howler. What *was* that about? How can a Muggle (and I'll bet my wand she's a Muggle, not a witch and certainly not a squib or the mother of a suppressed wizard) be in communication with Dumbledore? What was his "last" and for that matter, what was his "first" (the note tucked into baby Harry's blankets)?" Meidbhs HO: I think you're right that Petunia and her progeny are Muggles. Dudders as a wizard? What a thought - he'd be another one for Slytherin for sure! What I do wonder though is why doesn't VM just eliminate Petunia and Dudley leaving Harry with no blood relatives to protect him? The most obvious answer is that VM doesn't understand the part the Dursleys play in protecting Harry - yet. But I bet Petunia understands (she has prevented Vernon from kicking Harry out). If Harry is killed and VM regains power he will surely destroy all those who protected Harry. It could be bye bye Duddykins if Harry isn't kept safe. I put my galleons on "my last" being the communication from Dumbledore that brought all this home to Petunia. You could almost feel sorry for her...until you remember the cupboard under the stairs. Meidbh :-) From meidbh at yahoo.com Sat Jul 31 02:23:13 2004 From: meidbh at yahoo.com (meidbh) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 02:23:13 -0000 Subject: Is (was) Harry a squib? (or born a not-so-great wizard?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108255 Liz wrote: "I wonder if it had been possible that Lord V's attack that so famously transferred powers to Harry, gave Harry the *only* powers he would ever have had... ? (Not that it matters now of course, because HP has all or more of the power he'd ever want!" Meidh speculates: Dumbledore believes Harry possesses the power of a "force...more wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than forces of nature...(a) power...which Voldemort has not at all... (a) force he detests". I suppose this force could have come with Voldemorts attack as a sort of magical genetic mutation or recessive trait, but I think it's much more likely that it came from somewhere else, most likely Harry's own parents. The squib-at-birth theory could still work though if Harry only gained this power when his mother died for him. But again looking at probabilities, we know squibs are quite rare, we know Neville is a little bit squibbish himself, odds are Harry was a wizard from birth. (And he makes a better hero that way!) Meidbh From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat Jul 31 02:43:31 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 02:43:31 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Snape=E2=80=99s_access_to_DD_office=3F_(was:_Snape's_part_in_de...?= In-Reply-To: <12e.479d9a9e.2e3c0cf5@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108256 Sherrie wrote: > I honestly cannot see sharing Penseives - would you want to give someone else > access to your memories? Although - if it IS Dumbledore's Penseive that > Snape is using, it says a VERY great deal about the depth of Dumbledore's trust > and belief in him! Potioncat: While I think Snape has his own Pensieve, I don't "Know" that. I don't think DD stores his thoughts in the Pensieve when he isn't actually looking for connections. So if it is the same one, it would be no different than say, borrowing someone's crock pot. From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat Jul 31 02:54:18 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 02:54:18 -0000 Subject: Shared Pensieves? (was Re: Snape's access to DD office?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108257 Becky wrote: > > > What I have always found curious is why wizards don't seem to use them > in trials to prove innocence (or guilt). I suppose it's because the > remember-er could skew the memories (something that I feel may have > affected Harry's view of his father in Snape's mind.) > Potioncat: The two cases where we see a Pensieve used, the individual chooses which memories to take out of his head and put into the Pensieve. How would another wizard get into someone's head to get out the appropriate memories? From snow15145 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 31 03:11:52 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 03:11:52 -0000 Subject: Snape's part in death of Sirius - Revised Time In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108258 Asian_lovr2: Well, I've already said I believe Snape did explain the situation to a limited degree. How limited, however, we can't know. At this time, the key is Harry thinks Sirius is in danger; Snape has evidence the Sirius is Safe. Again, I concede that Snape realizes that Harry thinks Sirius is in the DoM being held by Voldemort. Although, I suspect he has reservations about his interpretation of what Harry said since it make very little practical sense; Sirius and Voldemort, the two most wanted men in the world, cavorting about the Ministy in broad daylight? That's a bit 'iffy'. Snow: Snape is well aware of Harry's heroism attitude (in any situation) in saving someone which Snape himself has brought attention to on more than one occasion. Why should it be on Snape's authority to make a critical decision, rather than a decision by the majority of the Order? I do have another question though, when Snape checked to see if Sirius was at HQ, why didn't he inform Sirius at that point of Harry's vision, or did he neither tell him nor alert him? Asian_lovr2: And, since Sirius is safe, and Harry is at the school in the custody of Umbridge and the I-Squad, why would Snape need to ask for assistance? As I said before, Sirius is home, Harry is at school, all is right with the world. Although, I'm sure Snape was enjoying the idea that Harry was in deep trouble with Umbridge. Maybe even enjoying it a little too much. Snow: Why would Snape assume that Harry was safe in the "forbidden" forest with psycho woman who had just fired him for not having enough truth serum? Snape is on DD's side, right? Umbridge was the direct cause of DD leaving and McGonnagall being severely hurt (Snape's colleges), so why in heavens name would Snape trust that Harry would even possibly be safe with such a person? Sounds a bit suspicious to me! This is the one conflict that I have with Snape. Snape took way, way too much time in alerting the Order after everything that had happened to everyone involved. From sherriola at earthlink.net Sat Jul 31 03:27:49 2004 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:27:49 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is (was) Harry a squib? (or born a not-so-great wizard?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002a01c476ae$5bff6db0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 108259 Snow wrote (previous): >> This idea that Voldemort had given any and all of Harry's magical capabilities to him has been and still is controversial. I see too much referencing to Harry's magical capabilities belonging to or inherited by James for this to be true. Sirius saying, you fly as well as your father and you truly are your father's son. Harry is the youngest quiddich player in a century. << HunterGreen: That could just an *ability* rather than a specific magical ability. It most likely requires magical blood to be able to fly a broom, but being able to be a great seeker requires good reflexes, good instincts, good aiming ability and good vision (not as in eyesight, but as in an aptitude for focusing your eyes on something small and far away -- concentration, I suppose). Those aren't *specific* to being magical. Squib!Harry could have inhereted all of these traits from James, and then the ability to fly a broom came from Voldemort. Sherry now I think that JKR tells us very early in the saga, that Harry had magical powers before the attack of Voldemort. Hagrid says, in the hut on the rock, that Harry's name was written down from the time he was born, for Hogwarts attendance. I take this to mean, that there is some way of detecting magical abilities, and that whatever magic chooses students for Hogwarts knew Harry would have the magical ability and his name was written down. It does not say that his name was written down after the attack, when he was about 15 months old. This is in the first book, I think the chapter is called the Keeper of the keys. So, I think this tells us that not all Harry's powers came from Voldemort. His parents were apparently powerful wizards, and he must have inherited some of his power from them. Sherry G From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat Jul 31 03:29:19 2004 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 03:29:19 -0000 Subject: Snape questions for JK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108260 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "laura" > wrote: > > Thanks everyone who posted for your advice on what to ask JKR, I > > really needed it! Potioncat: I have another one for you. Given how involved the thread became, and how elaborate the timelines and could-haves should-haves...did to, did not... "Did Snape act in an appropriate manner, doing everything in his power the night Harry was lured to the DoM?" Have a great time! I hope you get to ask a question! From meidbh at yahoo.com Sat Jul 31 02:40:43 2004 From: meidbh at yahoo.com (meidbh) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 02:40:43 -0000 Subject: HPB guess In-Reply-To: <20040731014116.60383.qmail@web52201.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108261 Meidbh wonders: Has anyone worked the Godric Gryffindor idea through before? Godric Gryyfindor is the HBP. Harry is the Heir of Gryffindor. I bet Godric had green eyes (but then Petunia and Dudley would also be descendants...ok either muggles can't be heirs or cancel the green eyes!). Godric surely had great powers, passed on to Harry...beautiful symmetry with heirs of Slytherin and Gryffindor battling for the future of the WW. Any takers? Meidbh From editor at texas.net Sat Jul 31 03:27:11 2004 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 22:27:11 -0500 Subject: My own favor to ask, re christian allegory, alchemy, and Stoned!Harry References: <20040729122750.18285.qmail@web25102.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <009f01c476b0$eee197a0$d558aacf@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 108262 > Greg again: > Where can I find more info about the process of making the > Philosopher's Stone? Preferably with reference to the world of Harry > Potter? Hans: > Despite what Jo says about Flamel making the Stone, you'll find that no > human being can do so. It can be made only by God himself. We all possess > one in the heart and if we use it the right way, i.e. not for getting wealth > or extending our physical life, but by having our own inner Harry make our > decisions for us, it will turn our being into the Gold of the Spirit and > give us the Elixir of Life. I would really have liked to see some phrases like "in my opinion" or "it is my belief" in that above. Alchemy is a belief system that holds that the Stone is achievable, albeit as a byproduct of the purification of the human creating it. What you have posted above is an interpretation, a faith statement, and should be qualified as such. Hans: > I know you're busy Greg, but may I argue that these things are not just a > matter of literature and entertainment. In actual fact we're talking about > the purpose of life. That's what Harry Potter is about. That's what the > Bible is about. Again, could you please qualify that statement? *You* may be talking about the purpose of life. I'm not. In actual fact, I happen to consider Harry Potter to be literature and entertainment. It provokes good discussion and offers valuable insights, but I am not yet ready, even if you are, to embrace the Harry Potter religion. Hold forth about your beliefs all you like, but please identify them as your beliefs, and *not* as statements of fact. The assumptions you are bringing to this discussion are not shared by everyone. ~Amanda From garybec101 at comcast.net Sat Jul 31 04:04:39 2004 From: garybec101 at comcast.net (garybec) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 04:04:39 -0000 Subject: Neville's Protection Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108263 Becki's new theory; (First inserts the disclaimer that she has never seen this theory before and apologizes if it is a repeat). It just dawned on me that the reason Neville was not "visited" first from LV because LV did not have the info on him like he did for Harry. Many of us speculate that the Longbottoms, or at the very least, Neville, was in hiding, as were the Potters, do to the vagueness of the prophecy and the possibility that it could be referring to either one of them. The Longbottoms secret-keeper, (if that is what they used), was probably a bit more reliable than the one that the Potters used. With the new info that Nevilles birthday is the 30th, and if it means anything relevant to the story, I am still not sure if it was LV who actually picked his nemesis, or if the prophecy meant Harry all along, that remains to be seen. Becki, (who wishes Jo a very Happy Birthday) From patientx3 at aol.com Sat Jul 31 04:20:49 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 04:20:49 -0000 Subject: Snape's part in death of Sirius - Revised Time In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108264 Asian_lovr2 wrote: >>> And, since Sirius is safe, and Harry is at the school in the custody of Umbridge and the I-Squad, why would Snape need to ask for assistance? As I said before, Sirius is home, Harry is at school, all is right with the world. Although, I'm sure Snape was enjoying the idea that Harry was in deep trouble with Umbridge. Maybe even enjoying it a little too much. <<< Snow: >> Why would Snape assume that Harry was safe in the "forbidden" forest with psycho woman who had just fired him for not having enough truth serum? << HunterGreen: Slight correction...she didn't *fire* him, she put him on probation. And that was because she thought he was being 'deliberately unhelpful', which, in truth, he was. Of course it was HER fault for using all of the other 'truth serum' that Snape had given her (not that that would have worked either...). >> Snape is on DD's side, right? Umbridge was the direct cause of DD leaving and McGonnagall being severely hurt (Snape's colleges), so why in heavens name would Snape trust that Harry would even possibly be safe with such a person? Sounds a bit suspicious to me! << Well, for one thing she's a rather high up MoM employee. He doesn't know that its her that sicced the dementors on Harry, or that she would resort to using Crucio in the absence of truth serum. She's extreme, but I doubt she'd purposely lead two children into the forest with the intent of harming them there. And she wasn't the DIRECT cause of Dumbledore leaving. That was more the DA's fault and Dumbledore's fault than hers (he had the choice to let Harry explain the meaning the 'Dumbledore's Army' title, and let them expel Harry, but he chose not to). And the aurors were more to blame for Mcgonanal. (although Umbridge was to blame for trying to arrest Hagrid or have him thrown out of the school for simply being a subpar teacher). >> This is the one conflict that I have with Snape. Snape took way, way too much time in alerting the Order after everything that had happened to everyone involved. << Sorry to get back to the timeline thing, but we don't know when Snape found out about the little trip to the forest. At around the time they were heading out there he was finishing up with contacting the order for the first time and finding out Sirius was all right. At this point, if he had said "Harry had a vision, you better all come here / run to the MoM to head him off!!!" then it would have incited chaos. If any members of the order went to the MoM that early, they would have found no Harry, and the DEs would probably have the sense to stay hidden. Then they would have all gone back to Grimmauld Place and it would have been a complete waste of time. As others have pointed out, there was no reason when Snape left Umbridge's office for him to believe that Harry was going to end up at the MoM that night. Snape didn't know that Harry had been able to use her fireplace at all (and probably assumed he didn't because then Harry would have known that Sirius was alright). How could he have forseen that Umbridge would try to use Crucio on Harry to get him to talk, Hermione would make up a story about a 'weapon' in the forest to save Harry, her Umbridge and Harry would all go into the forest, UHH would get separated from each other, the rest of the kids being held by the Inq. Squad would break free (while not having their wands no less) join the others, and that all 6 of them would take thestrals to the MoM to save Sirius themselves? Wouldn't a simplier scenario just be that Umbridge would spend a few hours harassing and trying to interogate Harry before either expelling him or sending him off to bed with a few thousand detentions (or after calling out Flich)? Sirius at this point could not get a hold of Dumbledore since he wasn't due at Grimmauld Place until after midnight, I'm sure at THAT time, even without the whole forest incident, he would have told Dumbledore what happened. Its too easy to look at this from a *reader's* perspective. We know that Harry wants to run off to the MoM (because of Kreacher's lie), we know what time they went into the forest, and we know how / when they left. You have to look at the situation through Snape's eyes. Then perhaps you can understand why there's such a gap between Harry leaving the forest, and the order being alerted to the MoM. He just didn't have all the facts. From patientx3 at aol.com Sat Jul 31 04:43:43 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 04:43:43 -0000 Subject: Is (was) Harry a squib? (or born a not-so-great wizard?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108265 Snow wrote: >>> I see too much referencing to Harry's magical capabilities belonging to or inherited by James for this to be true. Sirius saying, you fly as well as your father and you truly are your father's son. Harry is the youngest quiddich player in a century. <<< HunterGreen previously: >>> That could just an *ability* rather than a specific magical ability. It most likely requires magical blood to be able to fly a broom, but being able to be a great seeker requires good reflexes, good instincts, good aiming ability and good vision (not as in eyesight, but as in an aptitude for focusing your eyes on something small and far away -- concentration, I suppose). Those aren't *specific* to being magical. Squib!Harry could have inhereted all of these traits from James, and then the ability to fly a broom came from Voldemort. <<< Snow replied: >> James was not a seeker he was a chaser (per a JKR interview). Sirius actually says you "fly" as well as your father to Harry. Furthermore we have never heard of Voldemort having a significant flying ability. << HunterGreen: I know James was a chaser, but Harry's skill lie in *seeking*, so that's why I focused on that. Harry flies as well as his father, but that's still a *skill* (something that relies on reflexes and balence), as opposed to something that's completely magical. I don't know if Voldemort had any special flying ability, and I can't imagine that he did (doesn't really fit with him somehow), but he could have just passed to Harry the *ability* to fly, while the *skill* of flying *well* could have come from James. Snow wrote: >>> Harry can produce a patronus, not just any patronus, but one that looks like his father's animagus figure. <<< HunterGreen previously: >>>But Harry can produce a patronus at age *thirteen* which is rather strong magic for someone so young. Having strong enough magic to produce one with only a few months (weeks?) of training, could have come from Voldemort, but the actual patronus would still come from Harry, and would still take on a form determined by Harry <<< Snow replied: >>Yes, it is rather young to produce a patronus but his father becoming an animagus at the age of fifteen, which is also extremely young if not an impossible feat for a youngster, would be very accomplished as well. Also the fact that he had the ability to teach his friends one of whom was not of the highest standard of learning.<< HunterGreen: Yes, you're right, James is a powerful and clever guy, he could have easily passed on that bit of himself to his son. But that doesn't mean it *had* to come from him. The question at hand is could Harry have been a squib before the attack, right? So this is something that could have come from James, but also could have come from Voldemort, in the case of squib!Harry. Snow wrote: >>> Harry is very adept at Defense against the Dark Arts even to the point of teaching it, which appears to be one of James fortes, defense against it. Harry's "magical" abilities appear to be based with his parents not Voldemort. <<< HunterGreen previously: >>> James and Lily were involved in the fight against Voldemort, but that doesn't mean they had a specific aptitude for DADA, it reflects their personality more than their magic abilities.<<< Snow: >> James and Lily would have to have had been extremely talented at defense against the dark arts to have defied Voldemort three times and still, at that point, been alive to tell the story (we haven't heard).<< HunterGreen: Most likely, yes. But that still doesn't mean that Harry couldn't have got that trait from Voldemort. *Defense* against the dark arts entails knowing something about the Dark Arts (ex. Snape's ferver at teaching the subject, and his looong answers to his OWL questions in the flashback, although he was a DE for a time). If Harry was born a squib and therefore didn't inherit those traits from his parents, he could have got them from Voldemort. I'm not saying that certain traits Harry has (just as learning things fast and being rather powerful), *couldn't* have come from James and Lily, just that squib!Harry is possible. And in that case, Harry would have got those traits from Voldemort. Sherry wrote: >>I think that JKR tells us very early in the saga, that Harry had magical powers before the attack of Voldemort. Hagrid says, in the hut on the rock, that Harry's name was written down from the time he was born, for Hogwarts attendance. I take this to mean, that there is some way of detecting magical abilities, and that whatever magic chooses students for Hogwarts knew Harry would have the magical ability and his name was written down. It does not say that his name was written down after the attack, when he was about 15 months old. << But this is Hagrid talking here...has he personally seen the list (and I think what he's referring to is the magical quill that writes down the name of each magical child when they are born...JKR referred to it in one of her interviews), or is he just assuming? The list goes by year, because its used each year to send out letters to those that are turning ll, so if Harry was born a squib, then later *became* a magical child, then the magical quill could have added his name later (but placed it with other children his own age, because it goes by year, and thus no one ever noticed). Hagrid knows that Harry's parents are magical, and he knows Harry *must* be magical since he's assigned the duty of helping Harry get his school things, and if he knew about the list, he could just assume that Harry's name was there since he was born. From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Jul 31 05:39:39 2004 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 05:39:39 -0000 Subject: Snape's part in death of Sirius (some FF) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108266 > Neri: > There were several hours in which he either didn't inquire about Harry's status, or knew what happened and didn't call HQ. I'm talking about what he could have done in these hours. > > The problem might be that Severus' teamwork sucks. Why can't he simply ask for assistance when he is alone in a difficult situation? Possibly he was a double agent too much time? > > Pippin wrote in: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/10816 9 > > It's possible that you are right, and Snape waited as long as he dared because he didn't really care what happened to Harry. But it's also possible that he waited as long as he dared because he didn't trust anyone at HQ except DD. > > Neri: > Lets explore a bit the interesting speculation that Snape delayed contacting HQ because he didn't trust anyone except DD. First, why would Snape suspect someone in HQ at all? < Pippin: Because Albus "I trust Severus Snape" Dumbledore told him to? According to my theory, Dumbledore already suspected a mole at Christmas, and had shared his suspicions with Phineas, whom Dumbledore sent to check conditions at HQ before sending Harry there. Snape is therefore not the suspected mole, since he was at Hogwarts at the time, and neither is Kreacher, since he was at HQ when DD sent Harry there at Christmas. Key to my version of events is that Snape does *not * know that Harry made contact with Grimmauld Place. Harry was "concentrating hard on what he had seen in his dream" not on his communication with Kreacher. If Snape *had* seen that, then he would have known when he contacted HQ the first time that Kreacher had given Harry bad information, and then indeed things should have gone differently. Another intriguing thought though...Snape also serves two masters. He's reported to HQ--hasn't he got another report to make? He really should tell LV what's happened, since Umbridge and Draco are going to report it all to Lucius anyway. Of course Voldemort would want Harry to escape... (Fan Fic avoiders should skip between +++) ++++++ "Ah, Severus, I wondered if I might be hearing from you. " "Master, Potter's had another vision. He seems to think you're holding Sirius Black at the Department of Mysteries." "Good. Good. Where is Potter now?" "He's being held in Dolores Umbridge's office on the second floor. Apparently she caught him trying to use her fireplace to send a message. She wanted me to supply her with veritaserum in order to interrogate the boy. I made my excuses of course. I wouldn't want Potter to disillusion her about your return." "Ah, the narrow bureaucratic mind --an evil beyond all we do here...wait, you say Potter's being held? What do you mean?" "Umbridge confiscated his wand--I suppose she means to put him in detention. I offered to poison Potter for her but--" "That will do Snape. Listen carefully. You are to see that Potter escapes from Umbridge, do you understand?" "Yes, master, but--" "And you are to let me know as soon as possible if he leaves the grounds. Is that clear?" "Yes, master." "That will be all." ++++++ Whereupon, Snape tells the Bloody Baron to get Peeves to create a diversion above Umbridge's office. It is this which allows the DA to get away. Meanwhile Snape asks Nearly Headless Nick to tell Harry that there's been a message from Dumbledore: Harry is *not* under any circumstances to leave the castle and Snuffles is safe. Of course there's a hitch in this beautiful plan...Harry's already left the castle. Nick can't follow Harry and deliver the message till sunset. ( In folklore, ghosts avoid sunlight much as vampires do. It's pretty dark in the lake where Harry sees Myrtle. ) Snape is furious when he finds out, but what can he do? It's almost sunset by now--soon Nick can go to the forest and start searching. Snape will see to his damaged Slytherins and try to find out if they know anything. Meanwhile, as long as Harry is on the grounds and not on his way to London, the balance is tilted away from Snape calling HQ, since that will blow Snape's cover and he'll die with his debt unpaid. But Harry can't fly without a broom (as far as Snape knows) and he can't leave the forest for Hogsmeade without going back past the castle, unless he knows where there's another gate--the main gates are on the other side of the grounds from the Forest as near as I can tell. http://www.hp-lexicon.org/images/maps/hogwarts_map.html Maybe Nick reports a few hours later that he can't find Harry, and that's when Snape calls Voldie again. He gets told that Potter's already at the Ministry, and LV permits Snape to tell the Order that he's "deduced" where Potter went. It's too late now, mwa-ha-ha-ha. Of course this is so speculative it's practically fan fic even without the imaginary dialogue, but it was fun to work out. Neri: > So the problem is not that Snape can't trust HQ. Perhaps the problem is that Snape won't ask Sirius for assistance?< What if the suspected mole is Lupin? Would Sirius even consider that? Especially from Snape? Pippin From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Jul 31 06:54:00 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 06:54:00 -0000 Subject: Three People in the Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108267 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meidbh" wrote: Meidbh: > > This theory is wonderful - so good I hope I forget it so I can still > be surprised when I reach book seven! > > BUT but but... > Harry is the one who can destroy VM ("the one with the power to > vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...the dark Lord will mark him as > his equal" OoP). Note the wording "THE one...approaches" not "A > one...approaches". Only one person can destroy VM and that person is > marked by him. It can only be Harry. Geoff: Grammatically, you could have said just "one" which would still carry the same meaning of a particular person. This is interestingly paralleled in the New testament when John the Baptist foretells the coming of Jesus. Matthew records John as saying: "after me will come one...", Mark: "after me will come one..." and Luke: "but one more powerful than I will come.." The most fascinating parallel is from John (the Apostle) who uses both "one" and "the one"; he writes: "'I baptise with water,' John repled, 'but among you stands one you do not know. He is the one who comes after me....'" From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Jul 31 07:05:33 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 07:05:33 -0000 Subject: The Titlings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108268 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > Geoff: > > Reverting to my point, Sirius was not a "relation" but had > > a "relationship" with Harry which was very close because of the > > godson/godfather connection. So, using Chris' hypothesis, we are > > seeking someone who is not related but has a very close > > relationship with Harry - almost that of a relative > > maybe..... "Now," he says, sucking on the end of his pencil, "who > > can we put down on the list?" > > > SSSusan: > Okay, let's play the game. :-) With that definition, probably the > entire Weasley clan, Hermione, the Dursleys, Lupin, Hagrid, and DD. > Possibly Neville. > > Who do you think? > > And, chrisp, step in here any time and tell us if we're way off > course! Geoff: I think to have a similar relationship to that which he enjoyed with Sirius implies an adult - despite his closeness with HG and RW. I would be inclined to narrow the list to Lupin, Dumbledore; I would rule out Molly because of the "Prince" - and the relationship here is more of a mother/son form. A purely gut feeling I have and I probably couldn't back it up from canon (wow!) is that Lupin seems to have a greater empathy with him than many of the others. From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sat Jul 31 08:44:35 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 04:44:35 -0400 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy - VERY LONG Message-ID: <001e01c476da$9c16bb20$1fc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 108270 Siriusly Snapey Susan said: >>DuffyPoo said:"There was nothing special about HP, there was something very special about Lily's sacrifice (whether or not it was simply her sacrificing herself for Harry or she had cast a counter spell. It is still Lily that protected HP, not anything about HP himself that saved him)." It seems to me that this a BIG leap to make. Just as we don't KNOW whether Neville has powers we haven't seen, how can you argue that there *is* nothing special about Harry? << DuffyPoo now: First, let me say, I'm not holding this as my be-all-end-all theory. It just came to me one day while trying to figure out something someone else posted on this list. To me, as long as both kids are alive, there is absolutely no PROOF the one in the prophecy is HP, simply because LV never got to try to kill Neville. Now for your answer. It happened in the CoS and came from Diary!Tom. Now we have to remember all that Diary!Tom has to go on are the memories of his own 16 years of living and learning (which wouldn't include HP at all), what Ginny Weasley wrote in the diary (lots but we don't know all of it), what Harry wrote in it (precious little about himself), what Harry said to Diary!Tom in the Chamber and what Lucius Malfoy may have written in the diary (no cannon to support this). This is the conversation: "No one knows why you lost your powers when you attacked me,' said Harry abruptly. 'I don't know myself. But I know why you couldn't kill me. Because my mother died to save me. My common Muggle-born mother,' he added, shaking with suppressed rage. 'She stopped you killing me.' 'So. Your mother died to save you. Yes, that's a *powerful counter-charm.* I can see now - *there is nothing special about you after all*. I wondered, you see. Because there are strange likenesses between us, Harry Potter. Even you must have noticed. Both half-bloods, orphans, raised by Muggles. Probably the only two Pareselmouths to come to Hogwarts since the great Slytherin himself. We even look something alike ... But after all, it was merely a lucky chance that saved you from me. That's all I wanted to know.' Diary!Tom was trying to find out why Harry had lived when he knows, from what he has been told by Ginny, that HP has twice escaped his future LV self. He now had all the information he needed right from Harry's mouth. (Ginny couldn't have told him she most likely doesn't know all the details, just that HP is the "boy who lived" and the school was buzzing about him being a Parselmouth, and we, as yet, have no canon to prove LM wrote in the diary at all.) Harry's mother's sacrifice saved him...a powerful counter-charm. Riddle knows it is a powerful charm even at 16 years of age. He hasn't quite become LV yet though he has taken the name. He hasn't yet learned to underestimate the "ancient magic of which he knows, which he despises, and whe he has always, therefore underestimated -- to his cost." (OotP) Diary!Tom knows it was the sacrifice that saved HP not anything special about HP himself, and says so "there is nothing special about you after all." ['Because there is certainly something special about me kid and don't you ever forget it' - I hear Riddle say this nearly every time I read the passage!] Certainly Diary!Tom could be lying here but there is nothing to be gained from it. Diary!Tom isn't telling HP anything he doesn't already know. Harry doesn't believe he's special so being told he's not isn't going to affect his ability to fight back. The knowledge Diary!Tom gains here isn't able to be shared with LV, this is a only a memory of Tom not the real Tom Riddle. (May have been important if Ginny had died and Tom had come out of the Diary fully, but as it didn't happen, we don't know.) Siriusly Snapey Susan "Still, I think he is quite special and has powers other wizards his age [perhaps other wizards, period] do not possess, and I don't buy that *all* his powers were transferred to him by Voldy." DuffyPoo again: I don't buy that *all* his powers were transfered to him by LM, either. He was a magical wizard child when he was born. Hagrid says "Stop Lily an' James Potter's son goin' ter Hogwarts! Yer mad. His name's been down ever since he was born." Not, ever since he was attacked by LV! However, I think we believe, at least *I* believe HP "is quite special and has powers other wizards his age do not possess" only because that's what we've been led to believe through five books. Because the WW, DD, etc., all believe HP is the one who vanqished - at least for a time - LV and therefore must have special powers. How else could a baby have done it? But reading between the lines, and reading what Diary!Tom deduced, it wasn't baby Harry that did it, it was Lily's sacrifice and that alone that saved him from LV's curse. I'm really not trying to change your mind or anyone elses. I'm not entirely sure I've made up my mind! ;) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From patientx3 at aol.com Sat Jul 31 10:08:34 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 10:08:34 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy - VERY LONG In-Reply-To: <001e01c476da$9c16bb20$1fc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108271 DuffyPoo: >> However, I think we believe, at least *I* believe HP "is quite special and has powers other wizards his age do not possess" only because that's what we've been led to believe through five books. Because the WW, DD, etc., all believe HP is the one who vanqished - at least for a time - LV and therefore must have special powers. How else could a baby have done it? But reading between the lines, and reading what Diary!Tom deduced, it wasn't baby Harry that did it, it was Lily's sacrifice and that alone that saved him from LV's curse.<< HunterGreen: What's interesting is how little Harry buys into all that. When Hermione and Ron ask him about teaching DADA, he counters with the very facts you are talking about, that he only survived because of luck and circumstance. The rest of the wizarding world cannot be blamed for thinking that Harry has special powers, they don't, after all, know about the blood sacrifice thing. Dumbledore however, probably just thinks Harry is 'the one' based on his personal interpreation of the prophecy. Whether this, by implication, means that he thinks Harry has special powers, is up to you. Personally, I do think Harry is 'special', although perhaps not in the way that the prophecy is describing. I don't think the books have been misleading in that regard. From the end of book one, we knew that it wasn't anything *Harry* did that stopped Voldemort. From that end there was nothing remarkable about him. But there are other things that he has done (like being the youngest seeker in a century, conjuring a patronus against about 100 dementors, throwing off the imperious curse almost immediately, and beating Voldemort in the priori incanteam [sic?]), which point to him being a powerful (or 'special', I suppose) young wizard. And in those cases, it wasn't luck that guided him. (although the first two did have certain circumstances that tipped the scales slightly in his favor). From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sat Jul 31 10:43:02 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 06:43:02 -0400 Subject: Harry's dream about the Turban (was Re: Re: Neville and the Prophecy - VERY LONG) Message-ID: <004201c476eb$2816c6f0$1fc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 108272 Marita said: "What's interesting to me is that, in SS, Voldy didn't try to KILL Harry until he refused to join him...." DuffyPoo: Funny, I never read this as Harry refusing to join LV but that he would "Never" give him the stone. "Now give me the Stone, unless you want her to have died in vain." "NEVER!" LV's next words were "SEIZE HIM!" then when Quirrellmort said "Master, I cannot hold him -- my hands -- my hands!" LV said then kill him fool and be done. LV wanted the stone, most of all at this moment. Intimidation wasn't working, Quirrell was whining, "KILL HIM!" and then we can get the stone you idiot! Well that's what I thought, anyway. Marita said: "The first night in the Gryff tower, Harry dreams that Quirrell's turban is trying to get him to transfer to Slytherin. Voldy tells him personally, from the back of Q's head, that there's no need for Harry to die like his mother...wish I had the book here to find the quote. So what does that say regarding what Voldy knew about the prophecy? " DuffyPoo: I think you're confusing two things here (easy enough to do - that's why I live with two sets of the books so one is always at hand). LV as Quirrellmort told Hary "I killed your father first and he put up a courageous fight ... but your mother needn't have died ... she was trying to protect you ..." I don't see that this has anything to do with the prophecy. He was only telling Harry what had happened that night. In PoA Harry hears LV's voice, when the Dementors come near him, telling Lily to stand aside. He wasn't trying to kill her after all, he was trying to kill the baby. As far as we know, LV only killed James in an attempt to get to Harry, the same as he had to kill Lily in the end because she wouldn't 'stand aside.' The only part of the prophecy LV knows, according to DD, is "the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches, born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies." "Perhaps Harry had eaten a bit too much because he had a very strange dream. He was wearing Professor Quirrell's turban, which kept talking to him, telling him he must transfer to Slytherin at once, because it was his destiny. Harry told the tuban he didn't want to be in Slytherin; it got heavier and heavier; he tried to pull it off but it tightened painfully -- and there was Malfoy, laughing at him as he struggle with it -- then Malfoy turned into the hook-nosed teacher, Snape, whose laugh became high and cold -- there was a burst of green light and Harry woke, sweating and shaking." This mostly sounds like a 'normal' dream to me. It was a very emotional day for HP, all of these things tied into this day. Quirrell and Snape talking at the head table just as HP gets that first shooting pain in his scar, which he connected with Snape; Malfoy telling him he could introduce him to the right sort of people, as though HP couldn't make that decison for himself. Harry didn't like Malfoy from the get go in Diagon Alley, thought he was like Dudley; Snape, who HP believed caused the pain in his scar when they made eye contact. I think the rest of his dream is HP's normal nightmare of the events of Goderic's Hollow. When I was making up my own HP Lexicon (before I found the online one) I was dreaming about HP every night. Oh, and sometimes HP mixed with Coronation Street if there had been a particularly good episode on that day! I remember one particular one where almost all the cast from Coronation Street was in an office, along with myself, but it was most certainly the Ministry of Magic office and were were trying to make some sort of decision! ;) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sat Jul 31 10:55:12 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 06:55:12 -0400 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy - VERY LONG Message-ID: <004b01c476ec$dafb53c0$1fc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 108273 Erika: "He had a choice to pick between Harry or Neville. He chose Harry because Harry was a half-blood like him. He chose the one that he thought would be a great wizard like him. His decision and his actions put the prophecy in motion.,Voldemort set the prophecy in motion. Harry is the ONE simply because Voldemort chose him, not Neville." DuffyPoo: My theory, which I guess I am not making clear, is that LV did not *choose* HP at this moment at all. He was going to kill both kids. No point killing the one and having it turn out to be 'the other one.' If there had been 10 kids born at the end of July to parents who had thrice defied him, he was going to kill all 10. DD believes he *chose* HP because they are both half-blood because that is the way it looks. LV didn't make the choice not to attack Neville he didn't have the chance to attack him. His parents were in hiding. He found the Potter's first thanks to Wormtail. Lily's sacrifice for Harry *vanquished* LV. It really had nothing to do with Harry Potter whatever. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sat Jul 31 11:00:23 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 07:00:23 -0400 Subject: Is (was) Harry a squib? (or born a not-so-great wizard?) Message-ID: <005101c476ed$94f72c90$1fc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 108274 Liz said: "I say this because, I wonder if it had been possible that Lord V's attack that so famously transferred powers to Harry, gave Harry the *only* powers he would ever have had... ? " DuffyPoo: I don't think so, only because Hagrid tells the Dursleys that "his name has been down [to go to Hogwarts] since he was born" Not 'since he was attacked that night in Goderic's Hollow.' There was enough 'magic' about him at birth to warrant his name being put down to attend Hogwarts. Now, that said, we don't know how Squibs are dealt with. They are very rare according to Ron. It is my understanding that Squibs have some small amount of magical ability, just not enough to 'train up' as it were. They're never going to amount to anything. "can't transfigure a teabag" to quote Mrs. Figg. Would they get a chance at Hogwarts education or would the magic quill in the attic know? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Sat Jul 31 11:58:46 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 11:58:46 -0000 Subject: The Prophecy's half fulfilled WAS Re: Neville and the Prophecy In-Reply-To: <004b01c476ec$dafb53c0$1fc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108275 > DuffyPoo: >Lily's sacrifice for Harry *vanquished* LV. It really had nothing >to do with Harry Potter whatever. Aggie; going off at a slight tangent, Does this mean that the first half of the prophecy has been fulfilled then? (Sorry DuffyPoo, I realise that this goes *completely* against what you're trying to say.) The first half says, "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not..." Let's break it down: "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches..." Done - Harry *vanquished* the Dark Lord at Godric's Hollow "Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies..." Done - This *could* have been Harry OR Neville. "and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal," Done - the scar "but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not..." ??? This could be Lily's protection spell/charm or something we don't know about yet. IMO the first half has been fulfilled. From aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk Sat Jul 31 12:11:23 2004 From: aggie at raggie.freeserve.co.uk (aggiepaddy) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 12:11:23 -0000 Subject: Squibs rights WAS Re: Is (was) Harry a squib? (or born a not-so-great wizard?) In-Reply-To: <005101c476ed$94f72c90$1fc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108276 DuffyPoo: <<<<<<<<<<<>>>> >It is my understanding that Squibs have some small amount of magical >ability, just not enough to 'train up' as it were. They're never >going to amount to anything. "can't transfigure a teabag" to quote >Mrs. Figg. Would they get a chance at Hogwarts education or would >the magic quill in the attic know? Aggie; going off at another tangent!! Your comment here has just got me thinking (as do most of your posts!!). There has been discussion recently about the use of magic outside Hogwarts for those under 17. Fred and George have been used as examples, the explosions from their room mainly. Some posters have made a distinction between 'wand' magic and 'potion' magic. If this was the case then wouldn't it be fair to allow squibs to learn 'potion' magic? At the very least care of magical creatures? Surely this does not require a 'magical' essence. I suppose it may not be 'cost effective' to allow a child to Hogwarts if they can only participate in a few of the lessons but this aspect of RL doesn't seem to enter into the WW. Also if squibs are rare this wouldn't really be a problem. I realise this is all fiction and JKR probably hasn't thought about the education of squibs but I thought I'd comment on it anyway!! From theadimail at yahoo.co.in Sat Jul 31 12:11:41 2004 From: theadimail at yahoo.co.in (theadimail) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 12:11:41 -0000 Subject: Why Snape doesn't get DADA job Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108277 Hi, I am sorry if this has been posted before but I have a theory about why Dumbledore consistently refuses to let Snape have the DADA techer's job. It's very simple actually. He knows when Snape applied that one day Harry will be coming to this school and DADA will be the most necessary and urgent skill the school can give him. And knowing Snape's animosity for James and others, he thinks that Snape might be obnoxious with Harry and might prove to be a very bad teacher to Harry and worse scuttle Harry's interest in the subject. Look at what happened to Harry and his potions. If the same happened with DADA, he would be left defenceless and resourceless wouldn't he? I think that's the simple reason why Dumbledore refused Snape for DADA job eventhough he when there were no other appplicants or very bad candidates. If his interest were alive, Harry will at least learn things on his own. But under a hostile and obnoxious teaacher he might just lose interest. Bye Adi From theadimail at yahoo.co.in Sat Jul 31 12:15:18 2004 From: theadimail at yahoo.co.in (theadimail) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 12:15:18 -0000 Subject: Harry n Easter Egg Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108278 Hi, I just wanted to ask why Harry feels so emotional when Ginny hands him the easter egg sent my Mrs.Weasley in Book5? Bye Adi From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sat Jul 31 12:40:20 2004 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 05:40:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chamber of Secrets - The Unexplained In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040731124020.46811.qmail@web50108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 108279 --- fiondavhar wrote: > 1) The scorch marks on the floor after the first attack. Good catch! Interesting point. > 2) Aragog's blindness. Aragog is old. Blindness is a way of showing age in a creature that otherwise might not be much different from other adult creatures younger than itself. > 3) Tom Riddle's "bravery". Not brave as in courageously standing up to basilisks or the like but brave in the sense of not being down about his lack of parents or his poverty or living in a muggle orphanage. He didn't whine or complain but did that British "stiff upper lip" thing. > 4) The use of the word "ancestor" as opposed to "descendant" in > regards to Riddle and Slytherin, in Harry's conversation with > Dumbledore. > > - On page 245 of the Canadian soft-cover edition, Dumbledore tells > Harry that Voldemort is the last remaining ancestor of Salazar > Slytherin. The last remaining ANCESTOR. Not DESCENDANT. Is this a > flint? Or could there be some strange reversal of time at work? > Because, of course, an ancestor is someone you are descended from - > so Tom should be Slytherin's DESCENDANT, not his ancestor. Hmmm. > Bonny Actually, in the 19th century (where the wizarding world seems to be stuck half the time and when Dumbledore was born), the word "ancestor" could be used in place of "descendent". It's used that way in some novels. So no, it's not a flint. Magda __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sat Jul 31 12:46:09 2004 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 05:46:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is (was) Harry a squib? (or born a not-so-great wizard?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040731124609.31934.qmail@web50105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 108280 > Snow: > James and Lily would have to have had been extremely talented at > defense against the dark arts to have defied Voldemort three times > and still, at that point, been alive to tell the story (we haven't > heard). No, they wouldn't; they'd just have to be confident, courageous people with sound moral instincts. "Defied" means rejected or stood up to, not "defended themselves against". Magda __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sat Jul 31 13:08:13 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 13:08:13 -0000 Subject: The Prophecy's half fulfilled WAS Re: Neville and the Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108281 > Aggie; going off at a slight tangent, > > Does this mean that the first half of the prophecy has been fulfilled > then? > Let's break it down: > "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches..." > Done - Harry *vanquished* the Dark Lord at Godric's Hollow > > "Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month > dies..." > Done - This *could* have been Harry OR Neville. > > "and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal," > Done - the scar > > "but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not..." > ??? This could be Lily's protection spell/charm or something we > don't know about yet. > > IMO the first half has been fulfilled. Jen: I think the first part of the Prophecy has been fulfilled, too. There's debate whether Harry was really the one to vanquish Voldemort at Godric's Hollow because of Lily's sacrifice, but to me it doesn't matter: He only needs to have the "power to vanquish" to fulfill that line of the prophecy. This power to vanquish could be so many things, it could be something inherent within Harry, it could be is uncanny ability to draw people, objects, etc. to help him when he needs them most (my personal favorite). It could be something we haven't seen yet. So, I agree with you Aggie, even though Duffypoo is making some great analysis and arguments for the alternative reading! From srae1971 at bellsouth.net Sat Jul 31 13:15:41 2004 From: srae1971 at bellsouth.net (Shannon) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:15:41 -0400 Subject: prophecies and choice..was Re: Neville and the Prophecy - VERY LONG In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.1.20040731084358.02b3a658@mail.bellsouth.net> No: HPFGUIDX 108282 Erika said: >I believe that if that prophecy was never read or heard by anybody, >then nothing would have happened. What is that phrase...."The power >of suggestion"? Voldemort wouldn't have branded Harry as his equal >and inadvertantly given him powers that he would not have had >otherwise. Voldemort set the prophecy in motion. Harry is the ONE >simply because Voldemort chose him, not Neville. By the same token, I have a very hard time swallowing all this prophecy stuff. Just as you say that if no one had heard the prophecy and it had not been acted on by Voldemort nothing would have happened, I have to wonder what will happen if Harry chooses _not_ to accept the terms of the prophecy. Normally this wouldn't seem like an option (because to paraphrase Cpt Jack Sparrow, prophecy!), but one of the major themes of this series so far has been the notion that everyone has power over their own fate. Choice is stressed, over and over and over, as being the most important thing. So it seems fishy to me that suddenly this prophecy pops up that locks Harry into one path..."kill Voldemort or be killed by him," which is what the prophecy is saying, on the surface. Especially given that the prophecy tells us something that we as readers (at least I assume I can speak for all or most readers) have assumed from the start: that it will come down to Harry and Voldemort at the end. When I read that chapter in OoP, I remember thinking, "Am I supposed to be surprised by this?" Harry certainly is, but I as a reader wasn't, after five books in which Voldemort is built up as Harry's arch enemy. Granted, I have no interesting theories on what exactly will happen. But I do think that some miracle will occur to make Harry look past the end of his nose (quite a feat as he has seemed mostly incapable of that thus far) and see another choice somewhere. I also think that we have a second tier Trio (Neville, Luna, and Ginny) and that they will have a significant part in whatever comes (as will Ron and Hermione of course). Shannon, who really should be stopped before she continues abusing parentheses in such a lavish manner... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sat Jul 31 13:51:48 2004 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 13:51:48 -0000 Subject: Defied three times (Re: Is (was) Harry a squib? ) In-Reply-To: <20040731124609.31934.qmail@web50105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108283 > > Snow: > > James and Lily would have to have had been extremely talented at > > defense against the dark arts to have defied Voldemort three times > > and still, at that point, been alive to tell the story (we haven't heard). Magda: > No, they wouldn't; they'd just have to be confident, courageous > people with sound moral instincts. "Defied" means rejected or stood > up to, not "defended themselves against". Jen: This part interests me because it seems like in order to defy Voldemort, denouncing him is a big part of the defiance. Dumbledore said Harry has defied him four times now, and each time Harry rejects what Voldemort stands for, as well as defending himself against him: Book 1: Calls LV a liar and refuses him when he says, "Don't be a fool... better save your own life and join me." (SS, chap. 17, p. 294). Book 2: Tells LV that Dumbledore is the greatest wizard in the world, rejecting him again. Book 4: Harry defiantly resists the Imperius curse and refuses to obey Voldemort's commands. Book 5: Harry literally rejects Voldemort from his body when his heart fills with pain and love for Sirius. I think those are the four times anyway, I debated between the defiance in OOTP and when Harry was a baby, but decided since it was Lily's sacrifice, that would be *her* defiance. As an aside, since James & Lily defied LV the night at Godric's Hollow, wouldn't that be four times for them as well? Jen Reese From meriaugust at yahoo.com Sat Jul 31 14:17:54 2004 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 14:17:54 -0000 Subject: Harry n Easter Egg In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108284 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "theadimail" wrote: > Hi, > I just wanted to ask why Harry feels so emotional when Ginny hands > him the easter egg sent my Mrs.Weasley in Book5? > Bye > Adi Well, think about it: he's spent a very emotional and difficult year, dealing with the death of a classmate, a dementor attack, nearly getting thrown out of his home and expelled from school, plus the whole thing with LV coming back and no one believing him about that. He's had nightmares, and a nightmare relationship with Cho, no Quidditch, too much studying, DU hates him, DD ignores him, he doesn't know how to deal with Sirius and Ron and Hermione keep fighting. And to top it all off he has just learned some surprising and negative truths about his mother and father, whom he has always idolized as being wonderful, kind people. Harry is, basically a boy at the end of his rope. A simple gesture like a chocolate Easter egg from two people (Mr and Mrs Weasley) that care about him probably says to him a little something about unconditional love right now, something he has no memory of experienceing. Meri From srae1971 at bellsouth.net Sat Jul 31 14:40:55 2004 From: srae1971 at bellsouth.net (Shannon) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 10:40:55 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry n Easter Egg In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.1.20040731103747.00c504a8@mail.bellsouth.net> No: HPFGUIDX 108285 Adi asked: >Hi, > I just wanted to ask why Harry feels so emotional when Ginny hands >him the easter egg sent my Mrs.Weasley in Book5? >Bye >Adi My guess would be that he had just learned something quite unpleasant about his parents, who he had previously had up on quite a high pedestal. His illusions about his father were rather shattered, and it must have been sort of like losing his father a second time. That small display of motherly affection was probably just a bit much for him at that particular moment. Poor Harry. Shannon [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat Jul 31 14:44:15 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 14:44:15 -0000 Subject: Harry's dream about the Turban (was Re: Re: Neville and the Prophecy - VERY LONG) In-Reply-To: <004201c476eb$2816c6f0$1fc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108286 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cathy Drolet" wrote: > > "Perhaps Harry had eaten a bit too much because he had a very strange dream. He was wearing Professor Quirrell's turban, which kept talking to him, telling him he must transfer to Slytherin at once, because it was his destiny. Harry told the tuban he didn't want to be in Slytherin; it got heavier and heavier; he tried to pull it off but it tightened painfully -- and there was Malfoy, laughing at him as he struggle with it -- then Malfoy turned into the hook- nosed teacher, Snape, whose laugh became high and cold -- there was a burst of green light and Harry woke, sweating and shaking." > > This mostly sounds like a 'normal' dream to me. It was a very emotional day for HP, all of these things tied into this day.... snip > It could be a 'normal' dream, but I doubt it, and for one very good reason - Harry doesn't remember it. What is the point of recounting something dreamed - and immediately forgotten - by Harry? Except for a couple of chapters at the beginning of PS/SS and GoF the entire series is written from Harry's POV. We see and learn things at the same time and in the same time-scale as Harry. Not this time. So why is it there? It's for the reader - it's clues, foreshadowing, call it what you will. (See 97522; 97591 for a previous look at this episode.) We are being given pointers and one of the elements that is being hammered home is the idea that Harry's destiny lies in Slytherin; this dream just a few pages after the Sorting Hat has intimated the same thing and a couple of chapters after he ends up with a wand that is brother to the one held by that arch-Slyth Voldemort. How many clues do you need? Harry and Slytherin are key to the whole series. And it probably isn't just Slytherin House we're talking about here, but the concept of Salazar Slytherin as the embodiment of evil. Just a few days ago I posted an observation that maybe Harry wasn't all that powerful a wizard, and others have wondered the same. Why should Harry need to join Slytherin to be great? If he's that powerful he could be great in any House, right? Well, maybe the powers that he has are not entirely his own - that a significant proportion, maybe most, were transferred to him at Godric's Hollow and the Slytherin that could make him great is not just Slytherin House but Salazar himself. (Yep. It's that Possession theory again.) For about a year now I've been asking when the 'Temptation' is going to turn up; that nexus in all rites of passage tales where the putative hero is offered respite from his trials. Mostly I've thought that this tempting would take the form of being offered the opportunity by a well-meaning friend or a plausible enemy to opt out of the struggle - he's clearly not very enthusiastic about having to face Voldy on a regular basis and a few whispers that "maybe he's done enough, deserves a rest, leave it to the professionals" might strike a chord. But it could be that the temptation comes from within himself, from the essence that DD sees as divided but may not be for much longer. Harry was got at in OoP. DD saw and feared it, hence the Occlumency lessons. For some reason most posters think that because DD rescued Harry at the Ministry everything is back to normal. Really? The lessons were terminated before Harry learned how to block Voldy's influence. As things stand Harry can't trust his own thoughts, he can't be sure they're really his own. Just because Voldy can't manage a full-blown take-over doesn't mean he can't still send thoughts, dreams and visions into Harry's mind. Especially if he has help on the inside. It's a good bet that Harry will be tempted from the straight and narrow, at least for a while - it's traditional and gives the author a chance to demonstrate the dire consequences of not doing the right thing. But a few deaths will put him on the path of virtue again - DD, a couple of Weasleys perhaps. Harry's been pretty good at laying the blame on others, he never seems to consider that he may be at fault; this time he won't be able to fool himself. Someone he cares about will die because of his decisions. It's happened before but I don't think the lesson was learned - this time it will be. Kneasy From garybec101 at comcast.net Sat Jul 31 14:23:28 2004 From: garybec101 at comcast.net (garybec101 at comcast.net) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 14:23:28 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry n Easter Egg Message-ID: <073120041423.12680.410BAB600003A02C000031882200762302CECFCE0C0A0D979D0E09@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 108287 Becki responds; Harry seems to be extremely depressed at that time. He just found out (through Snapes pensive memories), that his father, whom he worshiped, was "not all that". I think that may have been the final straw, adding to Dumbledore getting ousted, no more DA, OWL's coming up, the whole Cho thing, etc. With everything in is life going wrong, a little bright spot, something as insignificant as an Easter Egg, from someone whom he knows, cares for him like a mother, is enough to put a lump in anyones throat. I think it put a lump in my throat too. Becki -------------- Original message -------------- Hi, I just wanted to ask why Harry feels so emotional when Ginny hands him the easter egg sent my Mrs.Weasley in Book5? Bye Adi ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cldrolet at sympatico.ca Sat Jul 31 15:59:36 2004 From: cldrolet at sympatico.ca (Cathy Drolet) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 11:59:36 -0400 Subject: The Prophecy's half fulfilled WAS Re: Neville and the Prophecy Message-ID: <003301c47717$6192a490$61c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> No: HPFGUIDX 108288 Aggie; going off at a slight tangent, >>>Let's break it down: "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches..." Done - Harry *vanquished* the Dark Lord at Godric's Hollow<<< DuffyPoo now: Ok, first off, in my theory, HP didn't vanquish anybody, it was Lily's sacrifice. However, DD's use of the word has bothered me for some time and I've tried to figure it out numerous times. We all know what the prophecy says, but DD says "Voldemort had been *vanquished* hours before, but his supporters -- and many of them are almost as terrible as he -- were still at large, angry, desperate and violent.....Did I believe that Voldemort was gone for ever? No." I don't think DD's use of the word 'vanquished' can possibly be the same meaning as "the one with the power to *vanquish*. My dictionary says vanquish means: 'to overcome in battle or conflict, to conquer;' conquer means 'to defeat in war.' Old Voldy was not truly conquered at GH. DD knew he was coming back, Hagrid didn't think he was gone forever, and neither did Mrs. Longbottom "My gran's always said You-Know-Who would come back one day." However, that part of the prophecy, to me, only states that the person with the power *approaches.* That part is done because both kids are now well along in years. ;) >>>"Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies..." Done - This *could* have been Harry OR Neville.<<< DuffyPoo: Yup, this could be either...done. >>>"and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal," Done - the scar<<< DuffyPoo: Nope. Marked by the curse rebounding off Lily's sacrifice, but not 'marked has his equal.' You can't mark one as an equal if you haven't yet considered any others. That, of course, only follows if you believe that LV didn't go to the Potters specifically because HP is a half-blood like him. I don't believe that. I believe LV was going to kill both kids, no matter what their blood status, and found the Potter kid first, thanks to Wormtail. As an aside here, my dear husband said this morning, if he were in Voldy's shoes, and heard that first bit of the prophecy, he'd have killed every kid born between mid-July and mid-August 'just to make sure' he didn't miss 'the one.' Charming man. ;) >>>"but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not..." ??? This could be Lily's protection spell/charm or something we don't know about yet. IMO the first half has been fulfilled.<<< DuffyPoo: If we accept that these powers are what DD is talking about in OotP then I guess it is fulfilled but it wasn't anything that needed a specific action to fulfill it. Oh yeah, that made sense, duh! I mean, 'the one' will not have to do anything to gain these powers or nothing will have to be done to him, I guess. The person who fulfills the first part of this prophecy already has these powers - born with them. "It is the power held within that room that *you possess in such quantities* and which Voldemort has not at all. That power took you to save Sirius tonight. That power also saved you from posession by Voldemort, because he could not bear to reside in a body so full of the force he detests. In the end, it mattered not that you could not close your mind. It was your heart that saved you." [DD speaking] I do not doubt, for one minute, that Neville possesses those same powers in at least the same quanties as Harry does. So, although you were going off at a slight tangent, Aggie, in my theory, Neville can still be the one the prophecy refers to. But no, I guess I don't believe that 'all' of the first half of the prophecy has been fulfilled I'm not ruling out Harry, I just think that as long as both kids are alive, the possibility exists that it can be either one, and as Neville has never been 'tested' we can't rule him out and just assume that HP is it. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gopotter2004 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 31 16:51:19 2004 From: gopotter2004 at yahoo.com (gopotter2004) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 16:51:19 -0000 Subject: Why Snape doesn't get DADA job In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108289 Adi Wrote: He knows when Snape applied that one day Harry will be coming to > this school and DADA will be the most necessary and urgent skill the > school can give him. And knowing Snape's animosity for James and > others, he thinks that Snape might be obnoxious with Harry and might > prove to be a very bad teacher to Harry and worse scuttle Harry's > interest in the subject. See, I've always just felt that Snape is GOOD at potions. Because he is: he's one of the few wizards who can brew the werewolf potion. He can whip up Veristatim (which I'm assuming isn't EASY, since that would be disasterous). He can bottle fame, brew glory, even put a stopper on death. On the other hand, it would be very stupid for him to teach his best abilities in DADA, as it would get him killed. (I'm assuming that Malfoy Jr does take DADA and would report back to Sr about occlumancy-- very intriguing that Snape is so good at this, being a Death Eater?) Becky, who thinks that while DD often has secret reasons for everything, doesn't think he was worried about Harry this time (ahem... for once.) From verysherryk at yahoo.com Sat Jul 31 04:13:56 2004 From: verysherryk at yahoo.com (verysherryk) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 04:13:56 -0000 Subject: What Kreacher knew - Additional - Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108290 > "Steve" wrote: > > I think, although certainly can't prove, that the next time we see > > Kreacher, his head will be hanging on the wall. > Bill wrote > If Dumbledore had any reason to do away with Kreacher he would have > done so in Book 5 when he interrogated him. I believe he spoke of > Kreacher in the present tense to Harry so I can't imagine him doing > this. > > I would guess that Kreacher might move in with the Malfoys. > Narcissa is a relative and the family believes in the system of > enslaving house elves that Kreacher was brought up in. Didn't Kreacher tell Harry that he would be alone with his mistress? Maybe he will be stuck in the house until he dies. I'm wondering what will happen to Buckbeak. He was injured, so I think he may still be in Grimmauld Place. Hope I spelled that right, don't have OoP handy right now. Sheryl From jaycat at kans.com Sat Jul 31 04:27:42 2004 From: jaycat at kans.com (Dane) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 04:27:42 -0000 Subject: Harry's Discovery in CoS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108291 Hey Everybody-- There has been a lot of talk about what Harry's discovery in Chamber of Secrets was and its significance to the HBP. There is only one real discovery that I can think of in CoS, and that was Harry's finding out that Filch is a squib. I don't know if this has any bearing on the HBP, but think about it. Filch is kind of fishy as a squib...his cat is named Mrs. Norris (is this for a specific reason)...and JKR said on her site that the families of the teachers will be factors in books 6 and 7. Or maybe I'm just stupid. please send any arguements for me to killrussia@ hotmail.com Thanks--DWA From dontask2much at yahoo.com Sat Jul 31 13:20:42 2004 From: dontask2much at yahoo.com (charme) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:20:42 -0400 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy - VERY LONG References: <004b01c476ec$dafb53c0$1fc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: <006e01c47701$2e899e20$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> No: HPFGUIDX 108292 From: "Cathy Drolet" > DuffyPoo: > > My theory, which I guess I am not making clear, is that LV did not *choose* HP at this moment at all. He was going to kill both kids. No point killing the one and having it turn out to be 'the other one.' If there had been 10 kids born at the end of July to parents who had thrice defied him, he was going to kill all 10. DD believes he *chose* HP because they are both half-blood because that is the way it looks. LV didn't make the choice not to attack Neville he didn't have the chance to attack him. His parents were in hiding. He found the Potters first thanks to Wormtail. Lily's sacrifice for Harry *vanquished* LV. It really had nothing to do with Harry Potter whatever. > charme: Your theory is clear, however I'm not convinced LV didn't choose Harry after all, since by his "choices" which DD makes clear (PS/PSS ..DD's refrain that it is our choices who make us who we are) is a key element of canon, IMO. Remember, if LV were focused on killing Neville he'd be after him now as well, and we'd see more about that in canon, wouldn't we? Instead, LV consistently and reliably chooses to focus his killing efforts on Harry. There is something about Neville's parents and torture story which doesn't sit well with me, something missing (no Neville pun intended.) From dzeytoun at cox.net Sat Jul 31 13:43:03 2004 From: dzeytoun at cox.net (dzeytoun) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 13:43:03 -0000 Subject: Snape's Attitude towards the Students In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108293 This post is very interesting. However, it brings up a whole OTHER set of problems: > HunterGreen: > Hmm, I cannot (reasonably) argue > that Snape has ever acted like a wonderful teacher to Harry, but I > think that's only one case. If it were a normal school, Harry might > be able to take potions from a different teacher (Snape teaching > Harry is a conflict of interests, really), but that doesn't work > here. As I have said before, the biggest problem with Severus is that he is the ONLY option, and the best way to deal with him would be to hire another potion teacher, or two. However, the REAL problem it brings up is yet another slip of the numbers. Unless Severus is using a Time Turner, there is simply NO WAY for him to teach every potions section at Hogwarts. > > > (btw SSSusan, and everyone else, I don't personally agree with > Snape's methods at all, I just don't think he's done anything that > violates the rules of his society) Yes, but he HAS done lots of things that violate the values Dumbledore professes, which makes his tolerance of Snape puzzling at best and reprehensible at worst. And I don't buy the whole Dumbledore bound by the rules of his society explanation. The rules of wizarding society have never seemed particularly constricting on Dumbledore in other cases, why should they be in this case? Besides this brings up another HUGE problem (not with your argument, necessarily, but with the logic of canon). Hogwarts has a large number of muggleborns and half-bloods who are members of a society with VERY different rules. Why aren't they screaming to high-heaven about Snape? Dzeytoun From eeyore5497 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 31 15:00:48 2004 From: eeyore5497 at yahoo.com (Michelle Horcher) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 08:00:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Why Snape doesn't get DADA job In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040731150048.16584.qmail@web12202.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 108294 Adi wrote: >> He [Dumbledore] knows when Snape applied that one day Harry will be coming to this school and DADA will be the most necessary and urgent skill the school can give him. And knowing Snape's animosity for James and others, he thinks that Snape might be obnoxious with Harry and might prove to be a very bad teacher to Harry and worse scuttle Harry's interest in the subject. << Michelle: Although your theory does have validity, another thought is the fact that he used to be a DE and there just MIGHT be a conflict of interest, don't you think? From meidbh at yahoo.com Sat Jul 31 15:18:29 2004 From: meidbh at yahoo.com (meidbh) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 15:18:29 -0000 Subject: Three People in the Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108295 > Meidbh: "BUT but but... Harry is the one who can destroy VM ("the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...the dark Lord will mark him as his equal" OoP). Note the wording "THE one...approaches" not "A one...approaches". Only one person can destroy VM and that person is marked by him. It can only be Harry." > Geoff: "Grammatically, you could have said just "one" which would still carry the same meaning of a particular person." Meidbh responds: Absolutely. If JKR had worded the prophecy differently ("One approaches with the power...") then we would only know that A person with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches. There would be no evidence that this person was the only one with the power. But she chose to say "The one with the power...approaches". I do not believe the wording is accidental. It suggests that only one person can vanquish our red-eyed friend and he has been marked. Meidbh :-) From meidbh at yahoo.com Sat Jul 31 16:27:38 2004 From: meidbh at yahoo.com (meidbh) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 16:27:38 -0000 Subject: The Prophecy's half fulfilled WAS Re: Neville and the Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108296 > > Aggie; going off at a slight tangent, "Does this mean that the first half of the prophecy has been fulfilled then?" Meidbh; The first half has been fulfilled. Whether or not we consider Harry to have "vanquished" VM in Godric's Hollow really doesn't matter as (as has been said) all he had to do was have "the power to vanquish". The *most* important part is what is yet to come "either must die at the hand of the other" > > Aggie; "but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not..." ??? This could be Lily's protection spell/charm or something we don't know about yet." Meidbh: We know that Dumbledore believes Harry possesses the power of a "force...more wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence,than forces of nature...(a) power...which Voldemort has not at all... (a) force he detests". Could something this strong be solely a result of the "powerful countercharm" that occurred when his mother died for him? I think not. Even the 16 year old Diary Tom was familiar with this countercharm (CoS). His grown self, a great Dark Wizard would certainly have had a thorough understanding of the effects of this charm on Harry's powers. But it appears that the extent of Harry's power was a surprise to VM. Why else would he be foolish enough to attempt to possess Harry as he did at the end of OoP? I think that there is more to Harry's power than what he gained during the Godric's Hollow confrontation... Meidbh :-) From RowanGF at aol.com Sat Jul 31 16:38:23 2004 From: RowanGF at aol.com (Kirsten) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 16:38:23 -0000 Subject: Flitwick for HBP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108297 At risk of dragging up an old discussion/theory (but I couldn't find one when I searched former posts) I'm going to throw out a new candidate for half-blood prince: Professor Flitwick. Why? 1) Harry learns about the existence of house elves in Chamber of Secrets. So house elves could be the 'discovery' that first appears there. 2) Flitwick's diminutive size is brought up everytime he's mentioned. Why is he so small? Could he be part house elf? 3) The inclusion of a house elf as part of the fountain of magical brethren in the MOM suggests that they are an important part of wizarding society. 4) Would important elves work in the kitchens or could Flitwick be fulfilling the need to serve by teaching and heading Ravenclaw? 5) Dumbledore has a special understanding for house elves and half- breeds and seems to gather them onto his staff, even expecting Kreacher to be treated with consideration. Just something to think about. RowanGF From witchypooh67 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 31 16:55:25 2004 From: witchypooh67 at yahoo.com (Kelly Duhon) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:55:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] prophecies and choice..was Re: Neville and the Prophecy - VERY LONG In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.1.20040731084358.02b3a658@mail.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <20040731165525.61634.qmail@web52208.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 108298 Shannon wrote: I have to wonder what will happen if Harry chooses _not_ to accept the terms of the prophecy. Normally this wouldn't seem like an option (because to paraphrase Cpt Jack Sparrow, prophecy!), but one of the major themes of this series so far has been the notion that everyone has power over their own fate. Choice is stressed, over and over and over, as being the most important thing. So it seems fishy to me that suddenly this prophecy pops up that locks Harry into one path..."kill Voldemort or be killed by him," which is what the prophecy is saying, on the surface. Kelly: Hmmm, interesting, but I'm not sure if it is really an option for Harry at this point. Suppose Harry chooses to ignore the prophecy and not go after LV. That does not mean LV will not go after him. IMHO, both Harry and LV would have to choose to ignore the prophecy and that does not seem likely. Kelly --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From meidbh at yahoo.com Sat Jul 31 16:55:40 2004 From: meidbh at yahoo.com (meidbh) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 16:55:40 -0000 Subject: The Prophecy's half fulfilled WAS Re: Neville and the Prophecy In-Reply-To: <003301c47717$6192a490$61c2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108299 "Cathy Drolet" wrote: "So, although you were going off at a slight tangent, Aggie, in my theory, Neville can still be the one the prophecy refers to. But no, I guess I don't believe that 'all' of the first half of the prophecy has been fulfilled" Meidbh: So you're saying that VM has not yet marked his equal? VM certainly marked Harry. Lightning shaped scar. As for "marking as his equal"- by repelling VMs spell Harry demonstrated that he was more than a match for VM. Not only did he deflect the spell but he sent it back so fast that VM couldn't dodge it. Pretty impressive for an infant. I think the concept that VM has yet to mark his equal, although not impossible, is a bit too complicated to be likely, especially with only two books to go. And if we assume that VM marked Harry as his equal then it's too late for Neville. Harry is the one. Poor Harry. Meidbh :-) From miranda_mcgonagall37 at yahoo.ca Sat Jul 31 18:28:57 2004 From: miranda_mcgonagall37 at yahoo.ca (Miranda) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 18:28:57 -0000 Subject: Snape's Reaction to Harry assuming that he is a DE spy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108300 As a constant lurker, I haven't seen any recent discussions of this moment between Harry and Snape, so I decided to post and see what everyone else thinks. I am curious about Snape's reaction to Harry assuming that he is a DE spy in OotP. What does this mean in regards to Snape's work for the Order? (page 521, Canadian Hardcover OotP): "That is just as well, Potter," Snape said coldly, "because you are neither special nor important, and it is not up to you to find out what the Dark Lord is saying to his Death Eaters." "No - that's your job, isn't it?" Harry shot at him. He had not meant to say it; it had burst out of him in temper. For a long moment they stared at each other, Harry convinced he had gone too far. But there was a curious, almost satisfied expression on Snape's face when he answered. "Yes, Potter," he said, his eyes glinting. "That is my job. Now, if you are ready, we will start again. Why would Snape be satisfied if Harry guessed right and he is a spy? I have always assumed that this reaction means Harry is wrong, but what else could Snape be doing for the Order? Any ideas? Or is this satisfaction because Harry has figured things out? I've heard some theories that perhaps Snape is satisfied to gloat over Harry how much he risks for the Order, and that he knows more than Harry does. I like the idea, but is it too obvious? Any suggestions or directions to an earlier discussion on this topic would be appreciated. Miranda From srae1971 at bellsouth.net Sat Jul 31 19:30:58 2004 From: srae1971 at bellsouth.net (Shannon) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 15:30:58 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] prophecies and choice..was Re: Neville and the Prophecy - VERY LONG In-Reply-To: <20040731165525.61634.qmail@web52208.mail.yahoo.com> References: <5.1.1.6.1.20040731084358.02b3a658@mail.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.1.20040731152302.03571a70@mail.bellsouth.net> No: HPFGUIDX 108301 >Shannon wrote: >I have to wonder what will happen if Harry chooses _not_ to accept the >terms of the >prophecy. > >Kelly replied: > >Hmmm, interesting, but I'm not sure if it is really an option for Harry at >this point. Suppose Harry chooses to ignore the prophecy and not go after >LV. That does not mean LV will not go after him. IMHO, both Harry and LV >would have to choose to ignore the prophecy and that does not seem likely. No, it doesn't seem possible that it could be ignored altogether at this point. But I can't help but feel that there are ways that it can be fulfilled that Harry isn't considering yet. He's going with the surface, obvious meaning. I'm far better at finding questions than answers, myself, but others have come up with various theories. JKR has said that it was very carefully worded, leading me to believe that Harry's -- and Dumbledore's -- interpretation is not the correct one. Or maybe more accurately, is not the _only_ one, and he need only find another way. Which would fit nicely with the "choices" theme so prevalent in all the books. Shannon [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sat Jul 31 19:51:23 2004 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 12:51:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why Snape doesn't get DADA job - with a sub-theory about the Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040731195123.70490.qmail@web50108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 108302 The reason why Snape doesn't get the DADA job is tied into the Prophecy about Harry defeating the Dark Lord. No, not Neville, - HARRY. In order to understand this connection, let's slip into the POV of the one guy in the middle of both issues: Dumbledore. Dumbledore says that the "Power the Dark Lord knows not" is love. That's why he didn't anticipate Lily's sacrifice for Harry. If Harry has this power, then he will be able to defeat the DL permanently. How to make sure Harry has this power? By letting him grow up as normally as possible, come to Hogwarts, make friends, discover the warmer emotions including real love (as we saw with Sirius). Now, why not make Snape the DADA professor? Well, JKR said (after a lot of hemming and hawing) that Dumbledore feels it would bring out the worst in Snape. What could that mean? Well, Snape is rather single-minded when he's on the trail of something and he's not the kind to pursue a course of action halfheartedly. So if Snape was DADA professor when Harry got to Hogwarts, what would Snape do with Harry and his classmates in preparation for the great confrontation with Voldemort? Snape would drill the heck out of them, that's what. He'd turn them into a crack team of Order of the Phoenix storm troopers, tossing powerful hexes and deflecting curses all over the place. If Harry's the saviour of the wizarding world against the forces of evil, then kiss good-bye to quidditch and gobstones, kid - you're in training. And Dumbledore knows that this rigourous training is pursued, then Harry will be a tough little warrior, an anti-Tom if you will, and he'll never develop the "power the DL knows not". Because this is Snape's flaw: he doesn't really trust all that emotional stuff, he'd put his faith in a well-aimed AK anyday. In Book 6 or 7, Harry will be offered the choice of turning his back on the prophecy. He'll be given an out. And of course he won't take it. But Dumbledore knows that to have that power means that Harry must VOLUNTARILY be willing to sacrifice his life for love of his friends, his community, maybe even his family, as pathetic as it is. He can't be forced to do it or the power won't work. Magda __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sat Jul 31 20:00:13 2004 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 13:00:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's Reaction to Harry assuming that he is a DE spy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040731200013.73582.qmail@web50106.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 108303 > I am curious about Snape's reaction to Harry > assuming that he is a DE spy in OotP. What does this mean in > regards to Snape's work for the Order? > > (page 521, Canadian Hardcover OotP): > > But there was a curious, almost satisfied expression on > Snape's face when he answered. > "Yes, Potter," he said, his eyes glinting. "That is my job. Now, if > you are ready, we will start again. > > Why would Snape be satisfied if Harry guessed right and he is a > spy? > I have always assumed that this reaction means Harry is wrong, but > what else could Snape be doing for the Order? > Miranda I don't think Snape is a spy, at least not the kind he was the first time out (and the kind that millions of fanfics claim he is). For one thing, way too many people - including several Hogwarts students - know he's a member of the Order this time. Whatever Snape is doing he's not doing it the old way. I think Snape's look means that Harry guessed wrong and therefore there's no danger that Voldemort will get that little bit of data out of Harry's mind the next time they "connect" in Harry's dreams. So Snape's operations are safe for now. Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sat Jul 31 20:14:27 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 20:14:27 -0000 Subject: Snape's part in death of Sirius (some FF) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108304 > Pippin: > According to my theory, Dumbledore already suspected a mole > at Christmas, and had shared his suspicions with Phineas, > whom Dumbledore sent to check conditions at HQ before > sending Harry there. Snape is therefore not the suspected mole, > since he was at Hogwarts at the time, and neither is Kreacher, > since he was at HQ when DD sent Harry there at Christmas. > > Key to my version of events is that Snape does *not * know that > Harry made contact with Grimmauld Place. Harry was > "concentrating hard on what he had seen in his dream" not on > his communication with Kreacher. If Snape *had* seen that, then > he would have known when he contacted HQ the first time that > Kreacher had given Harry bad information, and then indeed > things should have gone differently. Neri: I liked the FF. However, if DD told Snape he can't trust HQ and then went incommunicado, then all the blame is on him. He left Snape all alone on the front position. In fact, if I'd thought DD indeed did such an irresponsible thing, I'd think he should be kicked out of the commander post immediately. Perhaps Snape should replace him. I still have a hard time understanding how DD couldn't be reached when Snape finally warned the Order. However, since we know he was due in HQ then, I tend to reconcile it by saying that he was on his way to HQ by Thestral or by broom or something that did not allow him to communicate, so he was actually unavailable only for the short period of the journey. It would be extremely strange if DD cannot be usually contacted from his own HQ. If he was suspecting a mole in HQ this was all the more reason to give any Order member at Hogwarts a mean of communication with him. When I was in the army, not listening to the communication network was considered an offence equal to deserting your watch. Updating HQ about any development was pretty much reflexive. I don't even know how serious an offense was failing to update HQ, since I can't remember a single such case. Neri From kempermentor at yahoo.com Sat Jul 31 19:45:37 2004 From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 19:45:37 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy - VERY LONG In-Reply-To: <006e01c47701$2e899e20$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108305 charme wrote: IMO. Remember, if LV were focused on killing Neville he'd be after him now as well, and we'd see more about that in canon, wouldn't we? Instead, LV consistently and reliably chooses to focus his killing efforts on Harry. Kemper responds: I believe the reason LV consistently and reliably focuses on killing Harry is that LV is misinterpreting the prophecy, as is common in literature throughout the ages. The last thing LV sees before losing body and power is the unscarred face of Harry Potter. It is easy to see why LV would be focused on Harry even though LV may have had plans to kill little Longbottom as well. LV probably scrapped those murderous plans thinking the prophecy had to be about Harry. And why shouldn't he think that as his first meeting with Harry went so devastingly wrong? From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Jul 31 20:31:46 2004 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 20:31:46 -0000 Subject: Chamber of Secrets - The Unexplained In-Reply-To: <20040731124020.46811.qmail@web50108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108306 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich wrote: Bonny: > > 4) The use of the word "ancestor" as opposed to "descendant" in > > regards to Riddle and Slytherin, in Harry's conversation with > > Dumbledore. > > > > - On page 245 of the Canadian soft-cover edition, Dumbledore tells > > Harry that Voldemort is the last remaining ancestor of Salazar > > Slytherin. The last remaining ANCESTOR. Not DESCENDANT. Is this a > > flint? Or could there be some strange reversal of time at work? > > Because, of course, an ancestor is someone you are descended from - > > so Tom should be Slytherin's DESCENDANT, not his ancestor. Hmmm. Magda: > Actually, in the 19th century (where the wizarding world seems to be > stuck half the time and when Dumbledore was born), the word > "ancestor" could be used in place of "descendent". It's used that > way in some novels. So no, it's not a flint. > Geoff: I'm quite sure that I have seen it mentioned on the group more than once that it /has/ been acknowledged as a flint. Certainly, my UK edition (also p.245) has "descendant". From maritajan at yahoo.com Sat Jul 31 20:13:33 2004 From: maritajan at yahoo.com (Marita Jan) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 13:13:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's Discovery in CoS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040731201333.5468.qmail@web12108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 108307 --- Dane wrote: > There has been a lot of talk about what Harry's discovery in > Chamber of Secrets was and its significance to the HBP. There is > only one real discovery that I can think of in CoS, and that was > Harry's finding out that Filch is a squib. I don't know if this has > any bearing on the HBP, but think about it. Filch is kind of fishy > as a squib...his cat is named Mrs. Norris (is this for a specific > reason)...and JKR said on her site that the families of the teachers > will be factors in books 6 and 7. Or maybe I'm just stupid. I'm going to throw out another theory and see what ya'll think about it. When Harry is in the Chamber, Fawkes flyes to him and brings him -- the Sorting Hat. And the Sorting Hat knew what Harry needed to kill the basilisk - the sword. What if the Sorting Hat has a more important role than just putting kids in the right Houses? We know the hat originally belonged to Gryff but that all 4 founders put something of themselves in the Hat. What if the key to defeating Voldy is in the hat, especially if a battle takes place at Hogwarts (and I'm in the camp that believes it will happen)? All Harry had to was ask for help and he got the Sorting Hat. An important discovery? Hmmmmmmm...... ===== -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Need a real estate professional? Visit my site at www.maritabush.com With Marita, great service comes first.....and lasts! From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sat Jul 31 20:32:36 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 20:32:36 -0000 Subject: Snape's part in death of Sirius - Revised Time In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108308 Asian_lovr2 wrote: Listed below are several HINDSIGHT solutions. They are very easy speculations after the fact, but we must judge Snape's actions based on what he knew at the time, and then temper what he knew with his personality and his attitude toward Harry Neri: Erm... yes, I might have exercised a bit of hindsight there. That wasn't my intension. I don't think Snape should have foreseen LV's plot. I never accused Snape of lacking foresight (except when discussing those speculations that suggest he had enough data for it). I do accuse Snape of being irresponsible, mislaying Harry for several hours while knowing that he (Snape) is the last Order member at Hogwarts, and therefore responsible for Harry's security. Snape responsibility here is very similar to Mundungus' responsibility for the Dementors attack in the beginning of the year. They both let Harry out of their sight. The motives were different: in Dung's case it was greed and in Snape's case it was dislike for Harry, probably coupled with his reluctance to ask for assistance from Sirius or Lupin. The fault was the same. Dung was luckier, though: the Dementors attack didn't cause any lasting damage. But imagine that Sirius would have appeared at the last moment to fight the Dementors and killed as a result. Would you have then said that Mundungus shares some responsibility for Sirius' death? I would. Snape comes out of this comparison even worse than Dung. Dung left his watch for no more than an hour, when all was well and quiet in Little Whinging. There was no sign that anything is wrong. But when Snape left his watch he knew that Harry had just had a mind contact with LV, he is under a wrong impression that Sirius is in great danger, and Umbridge is trying to squeeze sensitive information out of him. A bad time to leave your watch for several hours. Moreover, Snape's case was after Mundungus' case. The Order already had a striking demonstration how dangerous it is to leave Harry unguarded. And indeed they watch him very faithfully for the whole year. Until Snape's watch. I don't accuse Dung of lack of foresight either. He certainly couldn't have foreseen that Umbridge will send Dementors to assassinate Harry. Snape couldn't have foreseen that LV will lure Harry to the DoM and that Harry will find the Thestrals in the forest. Both of them should have kept their eyes on Harry for a single reason: it was their duty. Neri From stargaz77 at aol.com Sat Jul 31 19:03:36 2004 From: stargaz77 at aol.com (celestina707) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 19:03:36 -0000 Subject: Harry's Discovery in CoS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108309 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dane" wrote: > There has been a lot of talk about what Harry's discovery in > Chamber of Secrets was and its significance to the HBP. There is > only one real discovery that I can think of in CoS, and that was > Harry's finding out that Filch is a squib. I don't know if this has > any bearing on the HBP, but think about it. Filch is kind of fishy > as a squib...his cat is named Mrs. Norris (is this for a specific > reason)...and JKR said on her site that the families of the teachers > will be factors in books 6 and 7. Or maybe I'm just stupid. Celestina: Just wanted to add a little something to this that my daughter actually pointed out to me a couple of days ago. Argus Filch/Arabella Fig. Both are squibs, both have cats, and have the same initials. Umm, not sure if this has any bearing on anything, but just wanted to add to this discussion regarding Filch. I am one who thinks perhaps Filch would be the one who learns magic later in life, after all, he is trying to isn't he? But not sure about him as the HBP, I would need to see more to support that theory. I'm still leaning in the Dumbledore direction for HBP. From inkling108 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 31 19:05:39 2004 From: inkling108 at yahoo.com (inkling108) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 19:05:39 -0000 Subject: Harry must be the one WAS Re: Neville and the Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108310 The prophecy states very clearly that the one (not two) with the power approaches, etc. etc. At the end of OOtP Dumbledore also states very clearly, when it comes to prophecies,"*only* (my emphasis) the people to whom they refer can lift them off the shelf without suffering madness." US version, p.829. Harry lifted it off the shelf and did not go mad. There is only one child referred to in the prophecy. Therefore, Harry must be the one. I don't see any wiggle room here, guys. Inkling From spoonmerlin at yahoo.com Sat Jul 31 20:08:39 2004 From: spoonmerlin at yahoo.com (Brent) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 20:08:39 -0000 Subject: What Kreacher knew - Additional - Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108311 I remember that he was alone in the house with the paintings while Sirius was inprisoned. It would seem that he would stay in the house unless freed by whoever takes it over. I would love to see Harry free him (if it can be done without the secrets getting out) that fate seem to be the worst for a house elf. Plus if Harry ends up with Kreacher I would think Hermione would go nuts until he freed him. > > Didn't Kreacher tell Harry that he would be alone with his mistress? > Maybe he will be stuck in the house until he dies. I'm wondering > what will happen to Buckbeak. He was injured, so I think he may still > be in Grimmauld Place. Hope I spelled that right, don't have OoP > handy right now. > > Sheryl From mauranen at yahoo.com Sat Jul 31 20:56:46 2004 From: mauranen at yahoo.com (jekatiska) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 20:56:46 -0000 Subject: Defied three times (Re: Is (was) Harry a squib? ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108312 Jen Reese wrote: > I think those are the four times anyway, I debated between the > defiance in OOTP and when Harry was a baby, but decided since it was > Lily's sacrifice, that would be *her* defiance. As an aside, since > James & Lily defied LV the night at Godric's Hollow, wouldn't that > be four times for them as well? Now Jekatiska: It would be four times - but the child was already born, and only the times before the child is born count: "born to those who have defied him three times". As for James and Lily being talented in DADA, undoubtedly they were. Seeing that the other couple mentioned in this context were both Aurors... (Weren't they? I think there's a bit of room for interpretation in the books "Auror Frank Longbottom and his wife" but also "they were Aurors and very popular" both in GOF somewhere. Etc.) Also as far as I understand, James was pretty much good at everything. As for Lily, we don't know - except that her wand was good for charmwork, but I suppose even Neville's wand is good for something. What we do know is that she is courageous and independent: she stood up against James when he was tormenting Snape - something a lot of people would not do. From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sat Jul 31 20:58:41 2004 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 20:58:41 -0000 Subject: Just another wacko HBP theory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108313 -------------------------------- OotP, Ch. 10: Harry had a troubled nights sleep. His parents wove in and out of his dreams, never speaking; Mrs Weasley sobbed over Kreacher's dead body, watched by Ron and Hermione who were wearing crowns -------------------------------- Ron and Hermione as King and Queen? Hmm. Ron is pureblood and Hermione is muggle-born. So their son would be... yep, a half-blood prince. But how would Ron and Hermione's son come to Harry's aid in Book 6? This is not a problem either. We have time travel. (And while the prince from the future is helping Harry, I really hope he'll also tell his royal parents to quit the shy bantering and get going with things) Hey, I warned you it's wacko... Neri From vmonte at yahoo.com Sat Jul 31 21:11:07 2004 From: vmonte at yahoo.com (vmonte) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 21:11:07 -0000 Subject: Book 6 mentions events from all 5 books according to JKR Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108314 This is really more of a comment or question than anything else. I cut and pasted several of JKR's comments regarding book 6 below. It seems to me (although I may be misreading the info) that JKR is stating that book six will mention certain events that take place in all the books, and that a discovery Harry makes in book 2 foreshadows something he realizes/finds out in book 6. So does that mean that Harry and gang will start to go over the events from year 1-5? Are they trying to figure something out? Do they start looking at their past experiences through a penseive (trying to make connections like DD perhaps)? Or are the events that are mentioned from each book regarding Harry's relationship with certain people like Snape or Dumbledore? Will Harry begin to take control of his emotions? Will he become introspective, thinking before acting out? Did Sirius leave a record of himself somewhere? with memories of the past? I keep thinking that the Weasley parents are going to die; does/did Mrs. Weasley keep a diary? Will we find out who the half blood prince is through a diary, Will, Ron's brain attack memories, or a penseive memory? Will Ginny reveal something about her encounter with Tom Riddle that will make the kids go over events from the past? Just some thoughts with no real answers yet. >From JKR's website: "The plot of 'Prince' bears no resemblance whatsoever to the plot of 'Chamber', nor is it an off-cut of 'Chamber'. The story of 'Prince' takes off where 'Phoenix' ended and does not hark back to four years previously. True, mention is made to events that happened in 'Chamber,' but of course, mention is also made of events that happened in 'Stone', 'Azkaban', 'Goblet' and 'Phoenix'." "The link I mentioned between books two and six does not, in fact, relate to the 'Half-Blood Prince' (because there is no trace left of the HBP storyline in 'Chamber'.) Rather, it relates to a discovery Harry made in 'Chamber' that foreshadows something that he finds out in 'Prince'." vivian From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sat Jul 31 21:33:43 2004 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 21:33:43 -0000 Subject: The Titlings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108315 Geoff: >>> Reverting to my point, Sirius was not a "relation" but had a "relationship" with Harry which was very close because of the godson/godfather connection. So, using Chris' hypothesis, we are seeking someone who is not related but has a very close relationship with Harry - almost that of a relative maybe..... "Now," he says, sucking on the end of his pencil, "who can we put down on the list?"<<< SSSusan: >> Okay, let's play the game. :-) With that definition, probably the entire Weasley clan, Hermione, the Dursleys, Lupin, Hagrid, and DD. Possibly Neville. Who do you think? And, chrisp, step in here any time and tell us if we're way off course!<< Geoff: > I think to have a similar relationship to that which he enjoyed > with Sirius implies an adult - despite his closeness with HG and > RW. I would be inclined to narrow the list to Lupin, Dumbledore; I > would rule out Molly because of the "Prince" - and the > relationship here is more of a mother/son form. > > A purely gut feeling I have and I probably couldn't back it up > from canon (wow!) is that Lupin seems to have a greater empathy > with him than many of the others. SSSusan: Well, good! Because Lupin was my first & my favorite guess for the HBP! :-) Siriusly Snapey Susan From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat Jul 31 21:33:17 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 21:33:17 -0000 Subject: prophecies and choice..was Re: Neville and the Prophecy - VERY LONG In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.1.20040731084358.02b3a658@mail.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108316 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Shannon wrote: > > > By the same token, I have a very hard time swallowing all this prophecy > stuff. Just as you say that if no one had heard the prophecy and it had > not been acted on by Voldemort nothing would have happened, I have to > wonder what will happen if Harry chooses _not_ to accept the terms of the > prophecy. Normally this wouldn't seem like an option (because to > paraphrase Cpt Jack Sparrow, prophecy!), but one of the major themes of > this series so far has been the notion that everyone has power over their > own fate. Choice is stressed, over and over and over, as being the most > important thing. So it seems fishy to me that suddenly this prophecy pops > up that locks Harry into one path..."kill Voldemort or be killed by him," > which is what the prophecy is saying, on the surface. Especially given > that the prophecy tells us something that we as readers (at least I assume > I can speak for all or most readers) have assumed from the start: that it > will come down to Harry and Voldemort at the end. When I read that chapter > in OoP, I remember thinking, "Am I supposed to be surprised by > this?" Harry certainly is, but I as a reader wasn't, after five books in > which Voldemort is built up as Harry's arch enemy. > I might take the opportunity to have a bit of a rant in this one. I'll probably start on the subject, but I can't guarantee that I'll stay there. One thing JKR is good at is getting fans to chase their own tails. Like everyone else I've joined in the game of trying to decipher that damn Prophecy with as little success as anyone. And the fact that none of us has come up with a reasonable, generally accepted interpretation should tell us something - JKR is pretty determined that we won't use it as a lever to reveal a plot twist she's probably got tucked away somewhere. That is, if it's not a blind to start with. There are interpretations that conclude that *all* the conditions of the Prophecy have been met already. In which case it's been thrown into the brew just to keep us busy and probably to distract us from considering one or two other things that could be much more productive of our time. And I agree - Harry trips over Voldy or his avatar in every book but one - which makes me very suspicious of some of the events in PoA, but more on that later - yet somehow he doesn't seem to have grasped the fact that Voldy has decided that Harry's the prime candidate for winning the Black Spot raffle and together with his dastardly crew he spends an inordinate amount of time drawing up ridiculously complicated plots, (worthy of Baldrick at his best) - and they never work. Harry *always* gets away. Sometimes I can't help but think of Sylvester and Tweety Pie. You've got to admit, it is getting a bit much. Consider: PS/SS. Harry and chums decide that it is their duty to prevent Snape from having it away with the Stone. Naturally they've got it all wrong. Good job too - if it had been ESE!Snape down there, Harry would be dead. His protection wouldn't work against ole Sevvy. Not that he understands about his protection yet, in his wide-eyed innocence he just assumes that 3 eleven years old untrained students can somehow circumvent the cunning protections supposedly emplaced by the best in the business and then overcome a mature wizard full of evil intent. Instead he finds out there was a basic error in his calculations. Oops! He's not about to reduce Snape to a snivelling wretch by reminding him of honesty, truth and the efficacy of a pure heart, he's up against the No. 1 baddy, foaming at the mouth and drooling down Quirrell's collar. He should by rights end up as a small grease spot on the floor - except. Except Quirrell forgets that he's a wizard. He doesn't do what your average wizard would do - Imperio! or Stupify! or Accio! Stone - he tries to grab Harry instead. Collapse of stout party. Hmph. Most unsatisfactory. Standards of villainy must be dropping. Note that during his excursion through the trapdoor Harry does not cast a single spell. CoS. Tom has him on toast. but he gets away - again. Saved by the intervention of aerial re-inforcements and the fortuitously shaky state of the Basilisks dental impedimenta. Tom meanwhile is strolling around, mouthing the usual Evil Overlord of the Universe claptrap and despite having Harry's wand in his hot little hands he never dreams of using it. Pillock. He's about as much use as an inflatable dartboard. Once again the entire episode passes without Harry casting a single spell (Parselmouth being not spells but a language - and he never learned it anyway - it was a sort of belated birthday gift). PoA. The odd one out. Why no Voldy? Why no plan to lure Harry to his doom? Well, there might be one in there somewhere, especially if you happen to be leery of Fudge and wonder exactly what instructions had been given to the Dementors. They seem awfully interested in Harry and Sirius doesn't seem to be their favourite flavour. I wonder why? Then if you're really devious there's that second Prophecy. Peter isn't the only one it could apply to; it could fit Sirius too. Just where did he go after he flew off on Buckbeak? A holiday on the Adriatic, perhaps? Anyway - Harry faces the presumptive betrayer of his parents. Within ten minutes he's been totally convinced by a load of self-serving tosh that doesn't contain a scintilla of convincing evidence and gets all gushy about setting up house with someone who had tried to strangle him not half an hour before. Erm.... excuse me; what's going on here? This kid should never be let out on his own. But at last he manages to do a bit of wand-work - an Expelliarmus! against Snape (foolish boy!) and a sort of retrospective Patronus. GoF. Well, this one's got everything - from dirty work at the cross-roads to a wooden leg. To be fair most of what happens isn't down to Harry - it's DD this time. Much burbling about 'Magical contracts' without ever explaining exactly what they are, what the penalties are for breaking one and why an under-age adolescent who never entered into one anyway should be bound by the rules - it's all a bit iffy. If DD's IQ is greater than his shoe size, then he must know that there's something afoot. And it ain't his sock. And what does he do? Nothing. Zilch. Bugger all. Is this likely? No, I don't think so either. So Harry goes on his own sweet way, eventually coming face-to-face with the biggest, grossest, most bumbling incompetent in the books. Voldy - our friendly neighbourhood mass-murderer. Typically, he's too busy preening to get down to business as any self-respecting supreme ruler should, and when he does get round to squelching this little scrote things don't go according to plan. Oh dear. Will he never learn? Not when the author's against him, he won't. A careful reading gives one the impression that there were a lot of DEs in that graveyard - a lot; many more than were named. Yet with one bound our hero is free... One unaimed Impedimenta! spell thrown over his shoulder and all are confounded (despite the fact that the DEs formed a circle and would not be approaching from the same angle or distance). Come now! Pull the other one for a vertitable symphony of campanology. One unaimed spell defeats a phalanx of ravening DEs? In that case this war can be won in double-quick time - blindfold Harry and send him out to blast random spells all over the place. Can't lose. OoP. Here we go again. A clutch of killer desperados ambush 6 school kids and come off worst. Only one fatality (adult) and it's not certain that that was the result of enemy action. Just how far can belief be suspended? It's not just suspended - it's fitted with anti-gravity. Way back at the head of this piece Shannon was musing about the use of the Prophecy as a credible plot device and wondering how the hell Harry hadn't noticed in 5 books that Voldy seemed a bit miffed with him; the surprised reaction when Harry's told "it's him or you." Well, that's not the only aspect of the story that leaves me god-smacked. Fortunately I don't read the books for their verisimilitude; it's the character studies and puzzles that grab my attention. Good job too, otherwise I might be getting a bit restive. A supposed super-wizard who uses hardly any spells against the enemy and a bunch of fearsome killers that fall over their own feet. Huh! It's fortunate that I'm not the type to complain. Kneasy From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat Jul 31 21:46:50 2004 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 21:46:50 -0000 Subject: Harry must be the one WAS Re: Neville and the Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108317 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "inkling108" wrote: > The prophecy states very clearly that the one (not two) with the > power approaches, etc. etc. > > At the end of OOtP Dumbledore also states very clearly, when it comes > to prophecies,"*only* (my emphasis) the people to whom they refer can > lift them off the shelf without suffering madness." US version, p.829. > > Harry lifted it off the shelf and did not go mad. There is only one > child referred to in the prophecy. Therefore, Harry must be the one. > > I don't see any wiggle room here, guys. Sorry, but there's plenty. Prophecies don't come wrapped in a glass orb. Prophecies don't come with protective spells. Prophecies don't care who hears them. But the Ministry obviously does. It's the Ministry that englobes them, puts them on the shelf and sets the protective spell. And it's the Ministry that decides who the spell is about. Harry's name wasn't on the label originally, it was added later when somebody decided Harry was the one Sybil had been burbling about, probably though not certainly with DD's input. So the protective spells have been changed at least once already. They could be changed again if fresh information came to light. Kneasy From patientx3 at aol.com Sat Jul 31 22:03:54 2004 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 22:03:54 -0000 Subject: Neville and the Prophecy - VERY LONG In-Reply-To: <006e01c47701$2e899e20$6601a8c0@MITRE.ORG> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108318 charme wrote: >>I'm not convinced LV didn't choose Harry after all, since by his "choices" which DD makes clear (PS/PSS ..DD's refrain that it is our choices who make us who we are) is a key element of canon, IMO.<< Voldemort did *choose* to go after Harry and kill him. And he did choose to use AK on Lily as opposed to an easier stupify spell (he was having a dense moment, if she's begging you to 'kill her instead', stop and ask yourself why that is). Not everything comes down to choice. That is a mantra of the books, but some things you don't have a choice about. Actually the prophecy thing makes Harry have no choice at all about what he has to do. He can choose to reject it, but that doesn't mean that Voldemort will suddenly leave him alone. >> Remember, if LV were focused on killing Neville he'd be after him now as well, and we'd see more about that in canon, wouldn't we? Instead, LV consistently and reliably chooses to focus his killing efforts on Harry. << I don't know about that. At first, as far as we know, Voldemort could have been focused on killing both boys, then, as DuffyPoo said, Peter came and told him where Harry was, so he went after Harry. The Longbottom's might have simply chose their secret-keeper better. After that, Voldemort is more focused on getting a body again than killing anyone. When he does get back to the prophecy in OotP, it had occured to him that he missed something in it, so his main focus is to not do *anything* until he hears the rest of the prophecy. I don't know when in all that he would have been concerned with finding and killing Neville. His actions now don't really mean much anyway. He, like Dumbledore, now believes the prophecy refers to Harry. Neville is no longer of any importance. (DuffyPoo's original post, which I disagreed with, was stating that that belief of his may end up being his undoing, if Neville is the person the prophecy refers to). From bcbgx6 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 31 22:07:20 2004 From: bcbgx6 at yahoo.com (Brian) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 22:07:20 -0000 Subject: Flitwick for HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108319 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kirsten" wrote: > At risk of dragging up an old discussion/theory (but I couldn't find > one when I searched former posts) I'm going to throw out a new > candidate for half-blood prince: Professor Flitwick. > RowanGF Brian's reply: This is an interesting idea. Sure enough, Flitwick's diminutive size is always mentioned. Another interesting point is that in PoA, when McGonagall, Hagrid, Fudge, and Flitwick order drinks, only Flitwick's drink is undeniably non-alcoholic. Could this be a hint at his elfish genes? After all, house elves can become drunk on butterbeer, which is not intoxicating to humans. Brian From gelite67 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 31 22:29:21 2004 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 22:29:21 -0000 Subject: The Prophecy -- "Marking" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108320 I'm hung up on the "and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal . . ." language. Was Harry marked (scarred) because LV's AK curse failed? Is the "marking" the literal scarring or just the choosing of Harry? Was the marking language an implicit prediction that LV would be unsuccessful or are we to assume that Harry would have received the same scar had he died? I haven't found any other reference to scars on the other victims of the AK curse, but, of course no one else lived. To me, if Harry had died, he wouldn't have been LV's equal, so the only way LV could have marked Harry (or whomever) as his equal would be if LV's AK curse failed. Angie From snow15145 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 31 22:36:32 2004 From: snow15145 at yahoo.com (snow15145) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 22:36:32 -0000 Subject: Harry's dream about the Turban (was Re: Re: Neville and the Prophecy - VERY LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108321 Kneasy snipped: How many clues do you need? Harry and Slytherin are key to the whole series. And it probably isn't just Slytherin House we're talking about here, but the concept of Salazar Slytherin as the embodiment of evil. Just a few days ago I posted an observation that maybe Harry wasn't all that powerful a wizard, and others have wondered the same. Why should Harry need to join Slytherin to be great? If he's that powerful he could be great in any House, right? Well, maybe the powers that he has are not entirely his own - that a significant proportion, maybe most, were transferred to him at Godric's Hollow and the Slytherin that could make him great is not just Slytherin House but Salazar himself. (Yep. It's that Possession theory again.) Snow (warning very long winded): This first half can actually belong under another thread entitled: Harry's discovery in COS, But by association also belongs here. I would like to add a few comments in an attempt to support your idea,Kneasy, along with the connection to the upcoming book, HBP. I believe this is what Harry discovers in Chamber but mention of it (the discovery) is also in the other books. JKR website FAQ section: In what way is 'Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince' related to 'Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets'? "The plot of 'Prince' bears no resemblance whatsoever to the plot of 'Chamber', nor is it an off-cut of 'Chamber'. The story of 'Prince' takes off where 'Phoenix' ended and does not hark back to four years previously. True, mention is made to events that happened in 'Chamber,' but of course, mention is also made of events that happened in 'Stone', 'Azkaban', 'Goblet' and 'Phoenix'." This statement "true mention is made to events that happened in Chamber" could be the fact that Harry finds out that Voldemort has put a bit of himself in Harry. COS "Voldemort put a bit of himself in me? Harry said, thunderstruck. "It certainly seems so" Harry could defiantly consider this a discovery. This is an actual "true" mention that Harry is hosting part of Voldemort (who may have been possessed by Salazar Slytherin, scroll down to Part 2 for details). The second part of JKR's statement, "mention is also made of events that happened in 'Stone', 'Azkaban', 'Goblet' and 'Phoenix'", these books also have related issues of the Harry/VoldyTom connection factor. There is suggestiveness (or as Kneasy and JKR put it foreshadowing) in each of the books with the greatest connection in COS of Harry's inner connection with Voldy/Tom. The following are just a few examples of the suggestive mention of the connection: Book One (mention) (1) The scar connection (2) The sorting hat wanting to place Harry in Slytherin (3) The Professor Quirrell dream Book Two (true mention) (1) The scar connection again (2) Harry speaking parceltongue (3) Harry questioning his likeness to Riddle (4) Riddle stating to Harry the likenesses between them (5) Harry asking and receiving the answer of; is a bit of Voldemort in him (6) Harry thinking that Tom Riddle's name is familiar Book Three (mention) (1) This one can be argumentative what if Trelawney's predictions are about the side of Harry that belongs to Voldy/Tom...could be (2) Harry feeling a boiling hate erupting from his chest wanted to attack and kill Sirius in the Shrieking Shack Book Four (mention) (1) Severe pain in scar when directly touched by Voldemort (2) Trelawney again "My inner eye sees past your brave face to the troubled soul within." GOF chap. Mad-Eye Moody pg. 199 (3) Harry's hateful behavior towards Ron supported by a voice from within (4) Harry's overall behavior has become darker since Wormtail's help in bringing Voldemort back to a somewhat solid state Book Five (mention) (1) Big time scar connection (2) Harry's overall behavior that became darker in GOF is much more pronounced since Voldemort's bodily return (3) Harry hearing a voice in his head telling or asking him things (4) Moody suggesting there's something wrong with that Potter boy (5) Dumbledore's statement "in essence divided" This shows the progression of the discovery Harry made in COS which is to be consummated by reality for him in Half Blood Prince. JKR: " Rather, it relates to a discovery Harry made in 'Chamber' that foreshadows something that he finds out in 'Prince'." Part "2" As to the significance of the Slytherin possession aspect of this connection, my insight is that Tom Riddle before he became Voldemort had less magical tendencies than Harry. They are both considered half- bloods but in all actuality Harry has the stronger magical blood. Harry's mother is a witch Harry's father is a wizard Tom's mother is a witch Tom's father however is a muggle Tom is therefore half (blood wise) of what Harry is at their births. Tom's relationship to Slytherin is from his mother and Tom is made up of only half of her. Tom is magical but to what degree of magical ability was he actually born with? Dumbledore states about Tom in COS "Of course, he was probably the most brilliant student Hogwarts has ever seen." Brilliance doesn't necessarily mean in regards to his magical ability being brilliant. Hermione who also, like Tom, having direct muggle parentage, is book learned brilliant. Yes, Hermione has magical ability, which she enhances greatly through her self-taught knowledge. I believe Tom Riddle entered Hogwarts in much the same manner (remember he lived in a muggle orphanage) as Hermione did. Tom was self-educated through books in which he found information about the Chamber. Tom's dark behavior is not mentioned until after he found the Chamber, where in he found an unexpected discovery, Salazar Slytherin. Tom was educated well by his ancestor and with Salazar's "help" continued his noble work. Tom was not born a great wizard; he was made into a greatly feared wizard by Salazar's presence. From rowansjet at yahoo.com Sat Jul 31 21:03:27 2004 From: rowansjet at yahoo.com (rowansjet) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 21:03:27 -0000 Subject: Harry's Discovery in CoS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108326 > Celestina: Just wanted to add a little something to this that my > daughter actually pointed out to me a couple of days ago. Argus > Filch/Arabella Fig. Both are squibs, both have cats, and have the > same initials. RS: I think it's just JkR having fun, or trying to give us a clue that Figg was a squib > I am one who thinks perhaps Filch would be the one who learns > magic later in life, after all, he is trying to isn't he? RS: I agree, I thought about this when I came across the chapter with it in, and it would be good for it to play a part. Who wants a magical Filch! > But not sure about him as the HBP, I would need to see more to > support that theory. I'm still leaning in the Dumbledore direction > for HBP. I don't think either Filch or Dumbledore are likely to be the HBP, at the minute I'm leaning towards whole new character. I thought it might be Gryffindor but she said shed written the entire HBP story out of CoS, and the thing that now linked the two books had nothing to do with the HBP. From stargaz77 at aol.com Sat Jul 31 21:16:14 2004 From: stargaz77 at aol.com (celestina707) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 21:16:14 -0000 Subject: Just another wacko HBP theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108327 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nkafkafi" wrote: > -------------------------------- > OotP, Ch. 10: > Harry had a troubled nights sleep. His parents wove in and out of his > dreams, never speaking; Mrs Weasley sobbed over Kreacher's dead body, > watched by Ron and Hermione who were wearing crowns > -------------------------------- > > > Ron and Hermione as King and Queen? Hmm. Ron is pureblood and > Hermione is muggle-born. So their son would be... yep, a half-blood > prince. > > But how would Ron and Hermione's son come to Harry's aid in Book 6? > This is not a problem either. We have time travel. > > (And while the prince from the future is helping Harry, I really hope > he'll also tell his royal parents to quit the shy bantering and get > going with things) Thats a very clever idea. The only thing that I wonder about is the time turner issue. Okay, from PoA, we know that they have the ability to go back thru time. That is a given. But don't they have to live out that time they went back through? We don't know, as of yet, if one can travel forward through time as well. But anything is possible in the Wizarding World. Celestina From mpachuta at hotmail.com Sat Jul 31 21:22:00 2004 From: mpachuta at hotmail.com (Mike Pachuta) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 21:22:00 +0000 Subject: Contacting Sirius Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 108328 Hey everyone, In OotP, when Harry is packing to go home for the summer holiday, he notices the mirror Sirius gave him, with the note on the back that says something to the effect of, "Just say my name and you will be able to contact me. James and I used to use it when we were in different detentions." (I don't have my book handy, so I'm sure the exact wording is incorrect!) Harry then looks into the mirror and calls for Sirius twice - the first time saying, "Sirius" and the second time saying, "Sirius Black!" We all know he was unsuccessful. We also all know (at least if we have read JKR's website!) that the mirror will be a very important aid to Harry in future years. How? And why? Here's where I got thinking...earlier in OotP, when Harry falls into the pensieve to see Snape's Worst Memory, he sees James, Sirius, Wormtail and Lupin relaxing by the lake. I may not be remembering correctly, but I think I am when I say that every time - every single time - James or Sirius speaks to each other or calls one another by a name, they refer to the other by the Marauder's name - Sirius calls James "Prongs" and James calls Sirius "Padfoot." Does anyone think it's possible that when James and Sirius were in detentions, that the mirror was bewitched to recognize their Marauder's nicknames and not their proper names? My thoughts are that if they were going to be whispering into a mirror, they wouldn't want the teachers overseeing their detentions to know whom they were talking to - saying a nickname into a mirror might cause a lot less inquiries than sitting in a room and saying "James Potter!" into a mirror. Plus, James and Sirius seemed very attached to calling each other by nicknames (James more so than Sirius), why would James be calling Sirius' proper name into the mirror? Maybe Harry has to realize this and call out for "Padfoot" in the mirror - not Sirius Black. My apologies if this has been brought up before; if it has, can someone please point me towards posts that may have addressed it before? I tried searching and was unsuccessful. thanks! mike From luckdragon64 at yahoo.ca Sat Jul 31 22:33:02 2004 From: luckdragon64 at yahoo.ca (Bee Chase) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 18:33:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HPB guess In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040731223302.45725.qmail@web21527.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 108329 Meidbh wonders: Has anyone worked the Godric Gryffindor idea through before? Godric Gryyfindor is the HBP. Harry is the Heir of Gryffindor. I bet Godric had green eyes (but then Petunia and Dudley would also be descendants...ok either muggles can't be heirs or cancel the green eyes!). Godric surely had great powers, passed on to Harry...beautiful symmetry with heirs of Slytherin and Gryffindor battling for the future of the WW. Any takers? Luckdragon64 replies: Yes! I posted that theory last week, but I think he is related through James rather than Lily and that makes him the last true heir of Gryffindor as well as explaining why James and Harry had to be killed and not Lily. Bee From martita8304 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 31 22:51:38 2004 From: martita8304 at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Marte=20Clausen?=) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 00:51:38 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Neville and the Prophecy In-Reply-To: <004b01c476ec$dafb53c0$1fc2d0d8@homesfm01ywa7v> Message-ID: <20040731225138.18274.qmail@web25210.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 108330 Erika writes: "He had a choice to pick between Harry or Neville. Voldemort set the prophecy in motion. Harry is the ONE simply because Voldemort chose him, not Neville." DuffyPoo: "My theory is that LV did not *choose* HP at this moment at all. He was going to kill both kids. LV didn't make the choice not to attack Neville he didn't have the chance to attack him. Lily's sacrifice for Harry *vanquished* LV. It really had nothing to do with Harry Potter whatever." This is all very well, but LV still marked HP when he attacked him first. It might have been NL if VL had done him first, *but he didn't!* It just a waiste of time writitng a series of seven books about our hero, just to find out that he's not! I don't think JKR would do that to us. I'm that naive... Marte