Movie PoA Foreshadows Books 6 & 7

[Diana]

No: HPFGUIDX 104266

Mike wrote:
> Ok, now the part where I go off on some theories :)
> 
> 1) Remus and James both loved Lily
> 
> -The movie seems to foreshadow this, and we really haven't heard 
too 
> much about Lily's past, though according to JKR we'll learn some 
> more stuff in Book 7.
> -Perhaps it was a competition between Remus and James to see who 
> could get Lily? Somewhat of a crazy theory, but let's face it, 
they 
> were teenage boys competing over a popular(most likely) and 
> beautiful girl and this is quite common.
> -Lily picks James over Remus because he has the courage to save 
> Snape from Sirius' prank? (This can be interperted as cowardice 
for 
> not being able to go through with the plan, but for the sake of 
this 
> theory it will be considered courage to stand up to Sirius and 
stop 
> him from making a large mistake).

<snip quote from SS/PS about standing up to friends>

> How does this fit in with the Remus/James competition you ask? 
Well, 
> we find out in OotP that Remus was made Prefect so that he 
> could "control James and Sirius" (not the exact quote, don't have 
my 
> OotP with me, but it's in the second half of the Prefect party 
> chapter). Later in Snape's pensieve we see that Remus only sits 
back 
> and watch's Sirius and James torment Snape. We can learn from this 
> that Remus doesn't have the courage to truly stand up to his 
> friends. We can tell that he's particularly for humiliating Snape 
as 
> he doesn't join in, but he doesn't even do his Prefect duties to 
> stop this either. Surprise surprise, it's Lily who has to come 
break 
> up the humiliation. 

Diana L.:
Good post!  I also got the impression from that scene on the bridge 
that Remus really liked Lily, possibly even *loved* Lily, and that 
he greatly admired her.  This may well be a foreshadowing of 
emotional revelations in future books.
As portrayed in the books [and in the movie by David Thewlis, I 
might add], Remus purposely keeps himself emotionally distant from 
Harry, and everyone else.  It could be because he fell in love with 
Lily and never got over her, or it could be because he does not want 
to open himself up to Harry and get emotionally involved because he 
is a werewolf and that would not be good for Harry and could be 
dangerous, as shown later on.  I'm leaning more towards the latter 
reason.  Lupin is shunned by most of the WW for being a werewolf and 
I could see Lupin not wanting to drag Harry into this type of 
existence with him.  
We saw such a small snippet of Snape's memory in the pensieve that 
we don't know how long the animosity between James and Lily lasted.  
We also don't know what dramatic event happened to make Lily change 
her mind about James, resulting in such a turnaround that she 
married him a few years later.  I like your idea that Lily changed 
her mind about James because he stopped Snape from being killed even 
though they hated each other.  However, I don't think that Lily 
chose James over Remus because of this because I don't think Remus 
was ever in the picture.  I believe it's more likely that Remus 
didn't grow to know and like [maybe love] Lily until after James and 
Lily got together as a couple.  Falling in love [and remaining in 
love] with your best friend's wife could make a guy a bit reticient 
around that friend's child, in my opinion.  

Mike wrote: 
> Where I'm going with this, is that if Remus and James were the two 
> eligible love interests in Lily's life, what sets them apart? 
James has the courage to save someone's life that he's hated for the 
past 5 years (at least, depending on what year at school the prank 
> happened). In the end, James and Lily get together and leave Remus 
> in the dust as they quickly get married after finishing their 7 
> years at Hogwarts, and then immediately give birth to Harry.
> Conclusion based on the "Bridge seen" in the PoA movie: Remus and 
> James both loved Lily, James' extra characteristics, such as 
> Gryffindor bravery makes him the top choice for Lily, Remus is 
left 
> off in the side again.  

Diana L.
I got the impression that Lupin's admiration [or love] of Lily was 
one of great respect for the kind of person Lily was, which was a 
great human being.  It would be contradictory to admire such 
wonderful qualities in a person and then not act with the same 
qualities just because that person was already married to your best 
friend.  I can't see Remus feeling "left off to the side" about not 
being with Lily when she obviously loves James.  Remus loved his 
friend James, and obviously cares for Harry (more on this later).  
 
Mike again:
> 2) ESE!Lupin all over again, but with some different motives.
> 
> I'm going to assume that all of you have seen this theory around 
the boards many times so I'm not going to go over the whole thing, 
just add in the extra bits.
> -James beats Remus in the "Lily's boyfriend" ladder. Teenage angst 
> easily comes into this. 

Diana L.:
See above as I believe if Remus did love Lily, he fell in love with 
her after James and Lily were already together as a couple.

Mike again:
> After graduation:
> James and Lily have each other, and they both keep close ties to 
> Sirius during this time. The war is still going on mind you.

> Sirius believes Remus might be connected with Voldemort and the 
> DE's. He admits this in the Shrieking Shack scene on PoA (The 
novel) where Remus apologizes to him for thinking he actually did 
betray James and Lily as well as kill Peter.

> Peter just hung around with them, there's no evidence to support 
> either way that they were actually close friends.

Diana L.:
The repeated unflattering descriptions in the books of Peter's 
connection to Sirius, James and Remus leads me to believe that the 
Marauders didn't see the true traitor in their midst because they, 
when younger especially, enjoyed Peter's worship of them.  They felt 
superior to the little tag-a-long boy who looked up to them so much 
that they refused to think this inept wizard could ever equal them 
or even be worthy of thinking he'd be dangerous to them.  Peter is 
still a murdering git, to be true, but the Marauders still thought 
too much of themselves to see the truth.  

Mike:
> We have Remus being shunned from the Wizarding world due to the 
fact 
> he's a werewolf and then being shunned from his friends because 
they 
> believe he's a traitor, oh, and James just stole the one person he 
> cared for and admired greatly (and possibly the only one who loved 
> him as more than just a friend).
> Theory: James and Lily are getting paranoid now that they've been 
> marked by Voldemort and the DE's as targets. Sirius proposes a 
> radical idea of making Peter secret keeper instead of himself. 
James 
> and Lily choose Remus based on this evidence alone depsite not 
> knowing his or anyones true allegiance. 
> 
> Peter goes over to Voldemort and gives him some information 
anyways, 
> hence why he goes into hiding. He truely believes Sirius DID kill 
> James and Lily; he fakes his own death to hide from Sirius because 
> he believes Sirius has lost it and is coming for him too. Sirius 
> believes Peter actually betrayed them. Peter never openly admits 
> that he was or wasn't secret keeping in the PoA shrieking shack 
> scene (he mumbles).
> 
> Lupin is outcasted from his friends and the entire WW and is 
> peticularly bitter that James beat him in the competition for Lily 
> (I'm sorry that I'm making this whole Love thing sound like a 
> complete and childish game, but I'm just trying to make it more 
> basic). He's given the keys to James in peticular, the DE's find 
him because they knew he was close with the Potter's and he figures 
he has nothing to lose. He gives them the info. Voldemort takes him 
> along to GH, he's already killed James before he enters GH with 
> Lupin. Lupin realizes what he's done upon seeing Lily trying to 
> protect Harry, tells her to run (Lupin's surprise about Harry 
> telling him he heard James' voice). Lily protects Harry at the 
cost 
> of her life, you know the rest.

Diana L.:
I don't see how Remus could ever be ESE.  There are too many 
instances in PoA were Lupin could have injured or killed Harry quite 
easily, but instead Remus was kind to him and helped him learn how 
to fight off dementors.
I believe Lupin's emotional reaction when Harry tells him that he 
heard his dad's voice is because Remus *wants* to comfort Harry and 
tell him everything about his parents and how well he knew James and 
Lily and how much me misses his friends, but he won't....because 
Lupin *must* remain emotionally distant from Harry.  Look at it from 
Lupin's veiwpoint - Harry can't come and live with Remus because 
Remus is poor and most likely has no permanent home.  Harry can't 
rely on Remus to be there every time he needs him because Remus 
turns into a full-fledged monster several nights every month.  A 
werewolf is so mis-trusted and shunned that Harry's prolonged 
friendship with Remus would be to Harry's reputation's disadvantage 
in the WW.  Even though Harry wouldn't care one whit about what 
others think, Remus would for Harry's sake.  Remus keeps his 
distance to protect Harry.  Now that Sirius is dead and the only 
other Maraurder alive serves Voldemort, Remus may relent on his 
decision to keep emotionally distant and get closer to Harry.  
Perhaps even taking on the position of confidant that Sirius once 
held?  
As for Peter being the Secret Keeper, the body language of Peter 
throughout the Shrieking scene in the book, which Harry reads as 
easily as a book, tells me that Peter IS the guilty party and did 
betray the Potters.  It makes no absolutely no sense that Peter 
would disquise himself for 12 years as a rat to hide from Sirius 
when Sirius was in Azkaban all that time.  Now Peter hiding from 
Voldemort's un-imprisoned followers because Voldemort was 'killed' 
after going to the Potters on Peter's information, I can believe.  
Peter and Remus both betraying the Potters would be overkill - half 
of the Marauders now serve Voldemort?  I don't think so.  
Peter wouldn't outright say he betrayed Lily and James because 
during the entire confrontation in the shrieking shack Peter is 
trying to convince anyone that he is not guilty just for long enough 
to get away.  Wormtail is a coward and admitting his part in James' 
and Lily's murder would take courage he doesn't have....yet.  I 
think Wormtail's courage, the courage that placed him in Gryffindor, 
won't show up until he has to choose between what is right [Harry] 
and what is easy [Voldemort] and he chooses to save Harry. 

Mike:
 > a. The Bridge scene where Lupin and Harry discuss his parents 
shows 
> that Lupin is more interested in Lily than James. 
> 
> b. The lack of hearing a male's voice in during Harry's dementor 
> induced memories. I mean come on, this is a movie here. If we 
heard 
> a voice we'd be able to tell if it's Remus/Snape rather than 
> somebody we've never heard speak before (James).
> 
> c. The Fidelus charm is left out. Well, if all the Secret Keeper 
> points were kept in the movie, it would come down to finding out 
who 
> the secret keeper is in the Shrieking Shack scene. Peter dodges 
this 
> question mysteriously by mumbling in the novel, but while reading 
> this would seem normal and we may not pick up on it the first, 
> second or even third times through. If Peter were to be asked that 
> question in the movie, then mumble, we'd catch it right away and 
it 
> would be completely obvious that things aren't what they seem.
 
Diana L.
When the film and the book contradict each other, I believe the book 
over the film in every instance.  If it's muddled in the movies, 
then I believe the more thorough explaination in the books.  It is 
plain to me in the book that Peter was the Secret Keeper and did 
betray Lily and James to their deaths.  Again, I go by the 
observations of Peter made by Harry throughout the Shrieking Shack 
scene as well as these statements by Peter: 

>"He - he was taking over everywhere!" gasped Pettigrew. "Wh-what 
was there to be gained by refusing him?"<

followed by 

>"You don't understand!" whined Pettigrew.  "He would have killed 
me, Sirius!"<

Don't forget, Peter is a liar and doesn't want to admit to anything 
if there's the slighest chance he could cause enough doubt long 
enough to get away.  

As for Harry hearing his father's voice being left out of the movie 
being a clue to some future revelation, I can't see it contradicting 
what has been presented in detail in the book.  Harry hearing his 
mother's voice [other than the single scream of "Harrrry!" in the 
train car] was left out of the movie, so I can't see that leaving 
James out of the movie was a foreshadowing when he's clearly 
mentioned in the book, complete with what he said in Harry's 
memory.  And Harry had already heard Snape and Remus and would 
recognize those voices in his memory as being NOT his father's.  The 
book says that the male voice Harry hears is a "new voice" to him.  

I just can't see the ESE!Lupin theory holding water regardless of 
whether he was or was not in love with Lily.  

Diana L.