James the Berk? (Was Re: Sirius revisited--emotional maturity)

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 105431

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
<justcarol67 at y...> wrote:
> Katie asked:
> <snip> (By the way, speaking of "attacking schoolmates just 
because they exist", why on earth does James behave the way he does? 
He seems honestly quite sadistic in the Pensieve scene to me, yet he 
doesn't get .1% of the criticism that Sirius does.) <snip>
> 

> Carol responds:
>  Could it be that most of us see James in exactly the same way:  
Young James is, IMO, impossible to like, 

Valky:
Impossible? to like. Even Lily registered ever so slight amusement 
at James' 'berky' behaviour. I would say 'impossible' is a faaaaar 
stretch at best.

Yes here I am! James Potter Fan numero uno! and Yes, I have done 
this before, so I am an old hat. Sharpen your Snape fangs Carol. ;D

Carol:
> and his reasons for saving Severus are probably a mixture of 
selfishness and nobility,
>

Valky:
Ohhh purlease, selfishness, dear lord? 
Show me the canon! that proves your theory that a selfish notion 
entered "James" mind in this instance. (And you had better come up 
with something better than he was afraid of being expelled any other 
manner of authoritative threat, because I have already thought of a 
thousand answers to that. James fears bugger all, OK, lets leave it 
at that.)

Nobility I can believe, but actually I really think it just went 
along these lines. 
Sirius says "I told him how to get into the Willow didn't I. Now 
we'll see just how he handles what he's got himself into. If he's 
ballsy enough to actually go in there that is, really thinks he's 
something scary he does. Well we'll see shan't we....."
James says "Ohh mate you didn't. Lupin will tear him apart!"
Sirius says " I don't care. He wanted it, he asked for it. He could 
decide it's not worth it if he's smart as he thinks he is. And 
besides, he's just like the rest of them......"
James says "No Mate, you've sent him to his death. And it will be 
Moony's fault, it's a stupid idea Sirius."
Sirius says "Well it's done and if you think that evil-loving little 
turd deserves to live...."
(nb 'evil-loving little turd' is my take on 15 year old Sirius' 
contorted by his personal suffering, opinion of Snape)
So finally James says "Well theres only one thing for it...."
And we know the rest.
And I am so saying that James did it because the first and last 
thing that came to his mind was Snape and Lupin are doomed without 
me nothing more and nothing less. 
James only uses physically non-harmful hexes Snape ( I won't say 
harmless because I concede the truth of psychological harm), Snape 
employs a more dangerous attack on James than James even considers 
unleashing on Snape. 
Although I accept that James was indeed having a bit o' a lark at 
Snapes expense I see he was *already noble*. 
I can show you canon that proves even magic as scary as the Avada 
Kedavra will not be so deadly to the recipient if the sorcery power 
behind it cannot overcome the recipients magical strength. 
It is not beyond a reasonable doubt that Snape's curse on James was 
intended to be far more sinister in nature than a simple cut. 
Perhaps James was simply the stronger wizard of the two, and since 
as observers we don't know that, but James would have known if Snape 
tried to inflict him a mortal wound, we cannot judge that James was 
not already noble in using milder counterhexes. Sirius certainly 
seemed to believe so and I think Sirius psyche is our strongest link 
to the truth about this incedent.

Carol:
> but by the end of his short life, he seems to have grown
> up and become worthy of admiration. I think there are very few 
James bashers because there are no James worshippers, either. He's a
> straightforward character about whom most of us have no strong 
feelings.
> 

Valky:
POP! I will defend James to the 11th of never. When, probably book 
six will finally come and I'll have a little help from JKR.

Carol:
> Sirius and Snape, on the other hand, are complex characters whoe
> motives are less clear than James' and who have an odd mixture of
> character traits.

Valky:
Exactly, why I look to them for more information about James.
I dont find Sirius that odd though, I relate to his cause so I guess 
I know him a little more well than most. Snape on the other hand 
entirely baffles me.


Carol:
 I personally prefer Snape with his wit, sarcasm,
> obvious intelligence, surprising courage, and air of mystery to 
Sirius (I really ought to call him Black to make them parallel) with 
his arrogance, reckless bravado, understandable depression, and 
rather desperate affection for Harry. But I understand why others are
> attracted to Sirius and try to defend him, just as I hope the Snape
> bashers understand the compulsion of Snape fans (not apologists,
> please: he's not Voldemort) to defend him. 
> 


Valky:
Frankly I think that Snape is the more arrogant, Sirius the more 
witty and intelligent. But thats just my humble opinion.

Carol:

> To return to James--I think there's no question that, in the end, 
he showed true courage, and for that reason no one feels that he 
needs defending. Either that, or his actions in the Pensieve scene 
*can't* be defended (you don't hex someone "because he exists," you 
stupid little berk!) and so no one even tries. You simply dislike 
the young James and admire (or grudgingly accept) the slightly older 
James, and that's that. At any rate, that's my view.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, are there any James fans on the list? If so,
> please step forward and defend your favorite character. I'd like to
> hear how I've got poor James all wrong.
> 

Valky:
No such begrudging here Carol.
First I think that the "because he exists." line was a bumbling 
attempt by a crushing boy to 'look cool' in front of his dreamgirl.
and 
Second he was always courageous. I don't think Snape was quite the 
inept opponent we are presuming from the canon in the pensieve scene 
I have a strong conviction that 15 year old James was a very brave 
boy but quite a bit of a fool, he was a naturally gifted kid I don't 
expect he was used to doing much thinking, and in his older years he 
managed to finally learn to apply some foresight to his actions.

Bets to You Carol ;P