Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws in the books

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 105667

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dzeytoun" <dzeytoun at c...> 
wrote:
> A lot of threads lately have been devoted to explaining mysteries 
of 
> the relationships among Snape, Harry, and Dumbledore.  These 
> relationships are fascinating, but also puzzling and inconsistent.  
> To a large extent we are lacking a lot of information we need.  We 
> are also hampered by the tight Harry-centric POV JKR uses.
> 
> However, and this isn't going to make me popular, I think a lot of 
> the explanation for why these three act the way they do is, well, 
> that they HAVE to act that way for the plot to go the way JKR wants 
> it to.  The fact is that, good a writer as JKR is, characterization 
> is her severe weak point.  She just isn't very good at explaining 
> what makes people tick.  Look at the trio.  After five books we 
STILL 
> don't really know much about what kind of people Ron and Hermione 
> really are, and why they make the decisions they do.
> 
> True, a lot of this is due to POV.  But an awful lot is also 
because 
> JKR sometimes commits the cardinal sin of writing, she lots plot 
> dictate character instead of the other way around.  A lot of the 
> seeming inconsistencies and flaws really ARE inconstistencies and 
> flaws.
> 
> In this case why does Dumbledore let Snape act the way he does 
toward 
> Harry?  Because it's needed for the plot.  Dumbledore IS NOT a 
> Machiavellian puppet master.  Snape and Dumbledore ARE NOT engaged 
in 
> some tag team good cop/bad cop arrangement to teach Harry about 
> life.  Snape IS NOT secretly a good guy who abuses Harry and 
Neville 
> for their own good.  Dumbledore IS NOT some secret evil genius out 
to 
> manipulate Snape, Harry, and everybody else for some nefarious 
end.  
> JKR wanted a good, kindly wizard headmaster to be Harry's mentor 
and 
> an nasty, difficult teacher to be his nemesis.  Therefore, that's 
the 
> way she writes things.  This creates contradictions and flaws.  And 
> that, by and large, is ALL they are.
> 
> We want things to make sense.  But the story often doesn't.  And 
why 
> should it?  Life usually doesn't make sense.  Theories about Snape 
> and Dumbledore conspiring together to teach Harry about life are 
the 
> same as theories about how Oswald had help on the grassy knoll in 
> Dallas.  That is they are conspiracy theories aimed at reducing the 
> complexity of things to some controllable, understandable set of 
> motives and decisions.
> 
> And yes, I realize I'm being inconsistent in saying that JKR has 
> flaws in the story on one hand and the story's are like life on the 
> other.  A foolish consistency and all that.
> 
> Now such theories are a heck of a lot of fun.  But at the end of 
the 
> day, they almost never reveal anything much.
> 
> Dzeytoun



Alla:

What is it with me today? I am inclined to disagree with my favourite 
posters here. :o)

No, Dzeytoun, you will never be unpopular in my eyes, on the 
contrary. :)

Let me state first of all that I do agree with some of the points you 
made. As such - I don't really believe in Dumbledore Evil 
manipulator, but I do believe that there are enough clues in canon 
that may give us a reason to speculate about that.


After all, in that nice speech at the end of OoP, Dumbledore does 
talk about his "Plan". He is the leader of the resistance after all, 
how can he not have a plan? And, yes, I believe that Harry plays 
crucial part in this plan.

Having said all that, I believe that Dumbledore indeed told Harry 
everything about the prophecy, but it is plausible to me that he 
concealed from Harry the reason of his familiarity with future and 
past events (timetravel, anyone?)


I do not believe for one second that Dumbledore deliberately 
palnned "to open Harry's mind further to Voldemort" As you correctly 
stated earlier , Dumbledore did not act confidently at all at MOM, 
when Harry was possesed by Voldie. Dumbledore was clearly scared for 
Harry's life.

Of course "it was dangerous to open Harry's mind further", but his 
mind was already opened to Voldemort. Connection between them existed 
during harry's life without any additional help from Dumbledore.



OK, I am drifting OT. I wanted to address your "weak 
characterisation" point. I disagree. I think her characterisation is 
quite good, not flawless, mind you and some characters are not 
developed at all, but quite good. Of course, she does not have time 
to go into deep psychological exploration of the characters (this is 
fanfic job. :)), but even sketches of main characters are quite good.



We DO KNOW what makes Ron and Hermione tick. They are full of 
insecurities. They are both afraid of failure. Ron feels overshadowed 
by his brothers, Ron is a loyal friend, Ron sometimes feels gealous 
of Harry. 
Do I want them both to be painted with more detail? Of course, but 
even what I have I consider to be quite good.

I am also trying to figure out where characterisation drives the plot 
and cannot come up with one so far. help me out, please?


Even in PoA, where Lupin does not tell Dumbledore about them being an 
animagi, even though it is a plot-driven point, it ifts quite nicely 
with Lupin personality . He does not want Dumbledore to stop liking 
him.



Alla