[HPforGrownups] Re: Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry in the Contex

[Shaun Hately]

No: HPFGUIDX 105877

On 12 Jul 2004 at 21:03, Ali wrote:

> Shaun, this was a fantastic post and I hope that it will clarify for 
> some, what you and I are perhaps fortunate enough to take for 
> granted. I do disagree with you on a number of issues that you use 
> as specific pointers for Hogwarts being similar to a typical English 
> Public School, although not on the general picture.

Thanks for responding.

I broke my ankle 15 minutes ago, and I'm sitting here posting. 
Could this mean I am addicted? (-8
 
> The fact is many British schools have houses, uniforms and prefects. 
> None of those facts alone or collectively would make me feel that 
> Hogwarts is like a public school. I think it would be correct to say 
> that many English schools have borrowed their traditions from the 
> longer established public schools, but that is regardless of their 
> place in the public or state sector. These traditions have been 
> borrowed from the Public School System simply because they were the 
> only really established pattern from which to build on.

True enough - but the major difference that makes me think 'public 
school' relates to the *age* of Hogwarts - the 'historical context' 
which I addressed first.

I'm probably going to be revising the essay a bit - a couple of 
people have raised some points off list that I wish I'd thought to 
address, so I may try make the historical context impact clearer.
 
> Had Harry gone to his local comprehensive, we know that he would 
> have had to have worn a grey uniform. For me, it is not a stretch to 
> imagine that he would have been in a house or told off by prefects.
> 
> I do agree that there *is* something very public-school like about 
> Hogwarts. I suspect for me it has something to do with the way that 
> Hogwarts is steeped in traditions and rules but primarily because it 
> is a boarding school. The intensity of the inter-house rivalry is 
> perhaps more akin to public schools than state, but my 6 year old 
> still accrues house points each week, and the winning house gets a 
> treat at the end of each term. Her school is most definitely state, 
> and always has been.

Yes, many other schools have adopted public school practices, and 
yes, often the reason was because they were an established pattern. 
And if Hogwarts was only 100 years old, I wouldn't be at all 
surprised if it had done so.

But Hogwarts is over 1000 years old, and *very* close to the model 
of a 19th Century public school, IMHO.

If the reason it is close to this model is that it copied the 
practices of a 19th Century public school, we would have to more or 
less assume that at some stage in the last 200 years, somebody came 
into Hogwarts and swept away centuries of Wizarding traditions in 
education to install a Muggle model. That doesn't strike me as 
particularly likely.

Schools - especially very old schools - tend to have changed over 
time by an evolutionary process. For a school that goes back 1000 
years to have wound up so similar to the British public school 
model, really does suggest it evolved alongside that model.

Newer schools adopted the traditions wholesale in such cases, 
certainly.

Consider the following - let's say, spontaneously, the Muggle and 
Wizarding world combine. Wizards come out openly, everybody knows 
they exist, and the Muggle world has to start fitting wizarding 
institutions into their world view.

Where would Hogwarts fit into that view?

A 1000 year old boarding school with the traditions of educating 
every prominent member of its society.

It'd become a major public school almost by default.

See, if we had evidence Hogwarts had copied the Muggle model at 
some stage, things wouldn't be as clear cut - but because Hogwarts 
is "steeped in traditions" (I agree with that) it seems to me 
unlikely that they would have discarded their own evolutionary 
process to just copy a Muggle one.

Incidentally, you might find it interesting to find out when your 
daughter's school started doing the whole "house points" thing. It 
could go back quite a while - but here in Australia, it's been 
noted that House systems, and especially House point systems have 
seen a major resurgence in the state sector since the Harry Potter 
books became popular. Moribund systems have been renewed, and new 
ones have been introduced.


Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia