Breaking Points & Choices (was: Snape, Harry, Dumbledore, and flaws...)

[sevenhundredandthirteen]

No: HPFGUIDX 105896

I (Laurasia) originally wrote:
>>> For instance, it would matter little whether Ron and Hermione
>>>were there with Harry, so long as he made it through the
>>>obstacles. Their presence there makes little difference to
>>>Harry.<

Pippin responded:

>You don't think it makes a difference to Harry that Ron was
>willing to die for him? Or that he discovers that, despite
>appearances, courage and friendship are more important to
>Hermione than books and cleverness? Harry may not act any
>differently in the short run, but this is a seven book series.

I (Laurasia) reply:

Actually, I agree totally with you. I think the fact that Ron was 
willing to die for Harry *should* make a considerable difference to 
Harry. The only problem is, it hasn't. What you said hit the nail 
right on the head: "Harry may not act any differently in the
short run, but this is a seven book series." Whatever change
Ron's willing sacrifice made, we haven't seen it yet (which,
IMO, makes it useless). Harry's fundamental character qualities
don't shift from book to book which makes any antagonistic forces 
he encounters redundant. He faces Voldemort, then goes back to 
school like normal, he faces Riddle, and once again has no new 
lease of life. He sees Cedric die and it definitely affects him, but 
never stops him being brave, the one defining feature of Harry 
which is apparently innate. He hasn't learnt ot chosen to be 
brave, it is just something he is. I really hope Sirius's death
will finally cause Harry to lose courage. I think Harry needs to 
stop being brave at some crucial moment and actually want to turn 
around and let Voldemort take over. 

Pippin also wrote:

>And what about the fact that Harry has to *choose* go on alone?
>He knew he would be no match for Snape and he could have
>gone back with Hermione to get help. Similarly, he could have
>tried to help Ron open the blocked passage in CoS rather than
>go on alone to the Chamber.

I reply:

Sure, but Harry had already made up his mind. In the potions chamber 
we never see him ponder the option of going back with Hermione do 
we? It never even crosses him mind. Never even a fleeting instance 
of whether he could turn away now. We as the readers see the 
possibility of turning around, but Harry never did. Harry never 
stopped to think `Will I stay or will I go?' In CoS it's
the same. We as the readers see the possibility that he could have 
stayed with Ron and shifted rocks to save himself, but Harry never 
did. As far as Harry is concerned, there is only one way, and that 
is forward. So, these choices don't actually exist in Harry's
mind. Therefore they _aren't_ choices. We never see Harry with a 
split desire- `do I save my own life, or do I continue?'
He's never been scared for his own life. He steps towards death 
in GoF and he wants to leave this world for Sirius in OotP. So, 
whilst I very much agree with what you've said- that a less brave 
person may have stopped and shifted rocks as soon as the passage 
collapsed in CoS, Harry never saw it as a possibility, so he
didn't continue on *despite* his fears, because he never appears
to have any. He always thinks that everything he does is the last 
straw (because all other hope has faded- he does try to contact all 
available members of the OotP before heading off to the Ministry, 
after all), the very last hope that anyone has, and *there* *is* 
*no* *other* *choice.*

I originally wrote:
>>>What is Hermione's breaking point? She's never been tested,
>>>so we don't know. <

Pippin responded:
>We know when she decided to break rules for Harry--that was a
>test. There are many others. She's not the main character, so
>her tests aren't going to be as dramatic as Harry's, and they're
>not going to come when they would undercut his.

I reply:

With Hermione I was referring more to her `loyalty to Harry'
in opposition to `doing what she has proof is right' (not her
`loyalty to school rules' in opposition to `doing what is
right`). We know what it takes for Hermione to break school
rules, she does it quite frequently for someone who allegedly 
loves them. It's cut and dry for her- Hermione will always do 
what she thinks it  right so long as there is verification backing 
her up (I wrote about this in my previous post). But we've never 
seen her `loyalty and trust in Harry's judgement as the only
source of fact' and her` loyalty to facts' come head to
head yet. We saw a hint of it in OotP when she ensured that Harry 
check before racing off to London, but what does it take for 
Hermione to flat out refuse to fight with Harry? That is her 
breaking point. When she will refuse to fight alongside because she
will not trust his judgement without hard proof. If Harry is the 
central character to the series, then any supporting character's 
breaking point must be with their own beliefs clashing with
Harry's.

I also wrote:

>>>What does it take to scare Ron?
<snip>
>>> What does it take to make Ron lose his faith in Harry?

Pippin responded:

>We know that. It happened in GoF, when Ron thought Harry had
>entered the TWT without him. Again, Ron's tests aren't as
>dramatic as Harry's and they are timed so that they don't distract
>our attention from what Harry is doing.

BUT as soon as Harry's life is in real danger (the first task)
Ron comes running back ready to apologise to Harry! If, on the other 
hand, Ron saw how much danger Harry was in but *refused* to help him 
because of the jealousy, then that would be his breaking point. His 
breaking point is when he refuses to let his own beliefs be 
compromised out of loyalty to Harry. Whether it is jealousy, or even 
fear. As soon as Ron's jealousy and Harry's safety clash, Ron 
*immediately* reneges on his jealousy. This PROVES that any jealousy 
will not get in the way of his loyalty to Harry. Ron doesn't even 
have to think about it. He comes running in after Harry without a 
trace of the jealousy left.

So, I still hold my beliefs that Ron and Hermione's characters
have never been tested. They certainly have been set up and we have 
seen hint of what might come, but both have yet to lose their faith 
in Harry.

~<(Laurasia)>~