[HPforGrownups] Re: Prefects and points

[Shaun Hately]

No: HPFGUIDX 106161

On 13 Jul 2004 at 10:04, Cathy Drolet wrote:

> Even Fred and George know the only choice of Prefects is to hand 
out
> punishments.  They never say "Dock us house points? Big deal." because
> they know prefects can't dock house points.  Hermione was involved in
> both situations quoted above. 

Sorry, Cathy, I can't agree. You're making an assumption here that 
the reason Hermione threatens the twins with detention is because 
that's the only punishment penalty she has. That's a erroneous 
assumption, in my view.

For one thing in the 'heirarchy of punishments' at Hogwarts, 
detention seems to be clearly a more severe punishment than the 
loss of a few house points. It'd be rather weird - not impossible -
but weird if prefects had the power to hand out detentions, but not 
the power to hand out loss of house points.

As someone who has lived in such a system, I think it's far more 
likely (though not certain) that prefects are simply very limited 
in the punishments they can hand out themselves. It may be they are 
limited, for example, to only taking away at most 10 points - 
enough that they can do *something* but not enough to really cast 
terror into Fred and George.

I would actually suspect that a prefect can't give out detentions 
at Hogwarts - at least not by themselves. At my school, the only 
punishment a prefect could hand out was signatures (students 
carried a card to be signed - one signature wasn't a big deal, but 
if you managed to get ten, the consequences were pretty awful). 
That was the extent of our personal powers.

*However* we could send someone up to a teacher in charge 
(typically their form master at my school) with a recommendation 
they get a detention (or even the cane) and nine times out of ten, 
it would happen. We didn't have the power ourselves - but we came 
pretty close to it.

I suspect the only punishment Hermione can actually hand out 
*herself* is the loss of a fairly small number of house points - 
not enough to worry Fred and George - even Malfoy, when he's being 
a complete - sorry, won't use that word here (-8 - in Order of the 
Phoenix only takes away five and ten points at a time.

In a school where we've seen teachers knock off 50 points at once, 
that's not a particularly severe punishment.

Fred and George have Hermione over a barrell - because it's clear 
that they are not impressed by her disciplinary powers. In the 
situation I describe that doesn't surprise me.

If she can't take away enough points to have an effect on them, 
that power has no use. And, while, perhaps there's a mechanism by 
when she can give them a detention, if that involves her having to 
escalate matters to McGonagall, it's likely to be something she's 
*very* reluctant to do under normal circumstances.

When a prefect has disciplinary powers, it's part of their job to 
prevent disciplinary matters coming to the attention of the 
teachers. They should only escalate something if it's too serious 
for them to deal with personally. Escalating a minor matter that 
you should have been able to deal with yourself makes you look bad 
- and Hermione would not be the type to want to give McGonagall, 
the impression she can't handle her responsibilities and duties.

> If anyone knew the Prefects can take
> house points from their own house rule, she would have and would have
> pointed it out.  

Under *normal* circumstances, yes.

However, in the case of Fred and George, if her powers are limited 
to a number of points that wouldn't have an impact on them, then 
doing so would have simply shown them she was as powerless over 
them as they were saying.

In the case of Malfoy, etc, while she might correct normally, doing 
so in this case would have accomplished *nothing* except possibly 
to give Malfoy an excuse to smirk at Ernie and Ron.

Why give him the satisfaction?

> She knew, from first hand experience, how angry the
> rest of the Gryffindors got when big chunks of points disappeard from
> their hourglass.  She could have easily threatened F&G with not taking
> 10 house points, which no one would notice, but "If you don't stop
> doing it I'll take two hundred points a piece from you and just let's
> see how funny you'll think it is then." Didn't say it because she knew
> she couldn't do it. Detention means nothing to the Twins, obvioulsy,
> they've done it hundreds of times.  Lines? What good are they anyway
> (well unless Umbridge is involved)? Can't take house points. What's
> left?  Tell Mrs. Weasley.  

I don't think she could take 100 points away - but it's perfectly 
possible she could take ten. 

A power doesn't *have* to be absolute - not by any stretch of the 
imagination. With the signature cards at my school, a teacher could 
give up to ten signatures at a time (very rare - normally if 
something that serious was happening, they wouldn't mess around 
with the card). A prefect could give only five at most, and was 
*very* *strongly* encouraged to restrain themselves to one or two 
(I had a very nasty interview about 'abuse of power' on one 
occasion, after I pushed my authority just a little too far).

Maybe the twins don't fear detention either - but that seems to be 
a more serious punishment at Hogwarts - or maybe they just know 
Hermione is unlikely to do it (which could be explained by the 
conditions I've given above).

As for what good lines are - in a world with copying spells, not 
much probably - unless you sit there are watch them being done. 
(although as someone who once had to write 1000 lines, I can say, 
I'm honestly not sure my hand would have hurt any more if 
Umbridge's quill was involved!)

I'm not saying the disciplinary model I've outlined above is 
accurate. It just seems to me it fits the facts we have perfectly 
well.

It's possible you're correct as well - but you're idea is not the 
only one supported by the facts available by any means.


Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia