Snape as an Occlumens

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 106270

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Penny Brooks"
<pennygbrooks at y...> wrote:
> ...
> 
> In OooP, we learn that Snape is an occlumens, and presumably a 
> legilimens, when he has to teach Harry occlumency.  What I'm 
> wondering is:  why hasn't Snape used this skill before?  
> ...edited...


Asian_lovr2:

Your Parents-

Excuse me but weren't your parents (everyone's) skilled Legilimens?
When you were preteen and early teen couldn't they pretty much look
you in the eye and tell when you were lying. And when you reached your
late teens and early adulthood, didn't you become sufficiently skilled
at Occlumency to look them in the eye and lie. (again, referring to
all of us and our parents, not just Penny)

First point, you don't need any special skill to tell when someone is
lying, especially if that someone does have some degree of conscience.
So those times when Snape was looking Harry in the eye, and Harry was
being deceptive, it's likely that Snape was using ordinary muggle 'lie
detection'; facial expresions, posture, eye contact, body language,
tone of voice, etc....

Snape's Legilimency skills-

This is very much subject to interpretation by the reader. I believe
Snape may have some basic limited intuitive skill as a Legilimens, but
not to the degree that Dumbledore or Voldemort have.

I can't really back that up with hard data, but that's my
interpretation of he books.

Legilimency-

I have written a long essay that's been posted here a couple of times
in the past on this subject. The most essential point is that we see
Legilimency in two forms. One form is the skill of Legilimency as a
natural talent. The other is the Legilimency Spell. The two are
similar and certainly related, but are not necessarily the same thing.

In Harry's Occlumency lesson Snape always used the 'Legilimens' spell;
a spell which forces a cascade of random memories from to come from
Harry's mind. Both Snape and Harry are aware that this is occurring,
and both are able to see the memories. 

When Dumbledore or Voldemort 'read' Harry's mind, that obvious and
unmistakable cascade of memories, and more important the 'victims'
awarenss of the event, is not there.

So, I have in the past and still regard the 'Legilmens' spell as a
separate entity from the natural talent and skill of Legilimency.

Conclusion-

While Snape is without quesiton an extremely skilled Occlumens, I
don't see any evidence to support the idea that he is any more than a
very basic limited Legilimens. 

I do however think his nature, experience, and personality lend
themselves well to normal 'truth detection'. Snape is very
intimidating, and I suspect that few students or wizards are
self-confident enough to look him in the eye and effectively lie.

Side note: if Snape is sufficiently skilled at Occlumency to fool an
extremely skilled wizard like Voldemort, how can we be sure he is not
also fooling Dumbledore?

Just a few thoughts.

Steve/asian_lovr2