James the Berk?

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 106300

Alla:


Carol, I decided to reply to your post, but I have no idea whether my 
reply will be to your liking or not. I am going to reply anyways, 
Sorry!I want to make a very small introduction before I hopefully go 
on topic. realise that you don't like "duel-like" responses. Well, I 
love them. I don't mind quiet discussion of the issues. Sometimes it 
is interesting, but I like "debate like " responses more.

It helps me to sharpen my writing skills too. So, please, please, I 
am NOT attacking you and if anytime while reading my post you feel 
so, please smack me electronically. :o), BUT it is definitely my 
intention to attack your argument.
Of course, I am not writing to convince you to change your position, 
but I am hoping that hypothetical "reader" will find my arguments 
more convincing than yours.



> Carol responds:
> First, Alla, I think it's wonderful to see you agreeing with Del and
> defending the young Snape even though you like Sirius (and James?)
> better. Great job, both of you, on this thread.



Alla:

Well, again I am sorry to dissapoint you, but I was NOT defending  
Snape. I lost any desire to defend him after him throwing THAT name 
at Lily. 
I find young Snape's views to be reprehensible and will not EVER 
defend him.
I was bashing James and Sirius' actions, NOT defending Snape.

Carol:

> Now, at the risk of having "Stupefy!" and "Silencio!" hurled at me,
> I'm going to propose that perhaps we're making more than we ought to
> of "Mudblood" by calling it "racist." What it indicates is not 
really
> quite equivalent to, say, the old U.S. Southern prejudice once held 
by
> many whites against blacks. On one level, it's more like an 
awareness
> of the presence or absence of royal blood; the purebloods see
> themselves as a kind of natural aristocracy which shouldn't 
intermarry
> with commoners (Muggleborns, and possibly half-bloods). It's not
> really a matter of "race" even though it certainly involves "blood."
>


Alla:


At the risk of sounding snippy, NO, I don't think that we are making 
more than we ought to out of "mudblood"

Carol:

> On another level, the prejudice isn't against "race" or 
even "blood";
> it's against Muggles, nonmagical people, whom the purebloods in
> general and the Slytherins in particular have been taught to view as
> inherently inferior, having to resort to "eckeltricity" because they
> have no magical ability. It's more akin to the prejudice against
> giants (and may have some basis in the treatment of witches and
> wizards by Muggles during the Middle Ages, just as the prejudice
> against giants has a basis in the giants' propensity to violence
> against even their own kind). Even Ron, as far from a Slytherin as 
you
> can find in these books, thinks Muggles are funny and laughs at the
> idea of sliding down a snowy hill on pieces of wood (skis).



Alla: 

Let's separate Muggles from Muggleborns, OK? Wizards' attitude 
towards Muggles is indeed patronising . What DE and future DE think 
about Muggleborns is a very different story, IMO.

"It's about the most insulting thing he could think of,"
gasped Ron, 
coming back up. "Mudblood's a really foul name for someone
who is 
Muggle-born – you know, non-magic parents. There are some wizards
– 
like Malfoy's family who think they are better than everyone else 
because they're what people call pure-blood" 

"I mean, the rest of us know it does not make any difference at all. 
Look at Neville Longbottom - he is pure blood and he can hardly stand 
a cauldron the right way up."
...
"It's a disgusting thing to call someone," said Ron, wiping his 
sweaty brow with a shaking hand. "Dirty blood, see. Common vlood. 
It's ridiculous. Most wizards these days are half-blood anyway. If we 
hadn't married Muggles we'd've died out."
–CoS, p.116, paperback, am.ed.


So, Ron can laugh at Muggles, but it is quite clear what he thinks 
about THAT word and what is behind this word. By the way, I don't 
think he hates Muggles, he just finds them strange, because he does 
not know much about them.

I think the prejudice IS against the blood. I will not pretend to be 
an expert on racism in the United States, because ...well, I am not, 
even though I am trying my best to learn as much as I can, but I know 
pretty well, as I wrote  earlier, about the treatment of jews in the 
former Soviet Union and you know, sometimes I am wondering, whether 
JKR had some kind of similar prejudice in mind, even more than race 
related prejudice.

Of course, JKR painted it as applicable to fictional reality of 
the "potterverse", but, you cannot imagine how real it sounds if I 
substitute "potterverse" for the RL and change the word "Mudblood" to 
some other disgusting name, which EVERY jew who grew up in that 
country heard at least once during his or her life (or maybe every 
day). I am not exaggerating.
If person says that name, it means that that person holds a view that 
people of my nationality are inferiour to.... well, all other 
nationalities living in the Soviet Union, they are not allowed to 
enter good colleges, to get good jobs, well, the best they can do is 
to leave the country, because... they are jews (which my family 
eventually did).  Actually, the Earth will be the better place 
without jews. Why, you ask me? because of who we are.


Carol:


snip.

> Yes, James sees the word "Mudblood" as an insult to Lily ("mudblood"
> equals "dirty blood"), but I don't think he sees it as "racist," any
> more than he would regard "bit**" as "sexist," though he presumably
> would have been incensed if Severus had used it against Lily. 
Granted,
> James, unlike Severus, doesn't mind the fact that Lily is a
> Muggleborn, but if she were a Muggle like her sister Petunia, would 
he
> even be interested in her? It's the fact that she's a powerful witch
> (as well as a pretty one) that intrigues him. And I can't imagine
> Sirius marrying a Muggle, either, assuming that he'd had the
> opportunity to live a normal life. And yet that prejudice against
> Muggles (as opposed to Muggleborns) is apparent throughout the WW, 
and
> no one regards "Muggle" as a mortal insult or a racist term. The 
word
> "racist" doesn't even occur in the books. It's imported from our
> perspective to their world.




Alla: 
How do you know that? I think that James does find this word to be a 
racist one. I don't know whether he would marry a muggle, I want to 
hope that he and Sirius would, but I have no idea one way or another.
How do you know that James was only intrigued by Lily because she is 
a powerful witch? 

Of course, we use the word "racism" , because it is the closest 
equivalent to what DE do to Muggleborns.

  
Carol:
snip.

> Please don't send any viruses to my computer if you disagree with 
me!
> I just think that "racist" is the wrong word in this context and
> arouses emotions that really aren't quite appropriate to the
> situation. Surely a perspective of intolerance should include
> tolerance for values that differ from our own, even when we're
> absolutely certain those values are wrong? It's not as if the
> Slytherins were in favor of burning the Muggleborn students. It's 
only
> when the prejudice reaches the level of Muggle baiting that we see 
in
> GoF, suggesting something far more sinister while Voldemort was 
active
> during VWI, or Tom Riddle's murderous loosing of the basilisk, that 
it
> passes beyond regrettable and becomes reprehensible.



Alla:


Sorry, Carol, my perspective of intolerance does not include 
tolerance of the values, which when expressed out loud could 
eventually lead to hatred and killings. I gave you my RL examples of 
such "name-calling"  and usually it implies that the person is 
already full of hatred to somebody who is different than he/she is.


If we knew that Severus only said this word once in his life under 
the stress, I would not condemn him, but we KNOW that he acted on it 
by joining Voldemort, so yes, I 'd say that his actions are 
reprehensible.

I am not saying that he could not change, I would be delighted to 
learn that he does not hold such views anymore, but for now I find 
what he did to be inexcusable.


"Too late now, Potter! They'll be the first one to go, now the Dark 
Lord's back! Mudbloods  and Muggle-lovers first! Well- second- Digory 
was the f---" - GoF, p.729, paperback.

Forget for a second that it is Draco, who says that. That's where the 
name-calling leads. I don't think this should be tolerated at all.


> 
> Carol, hoping for calm and rational responses (or none) :-)

Alla,
 who does not know whether her responce was calm or rational enough 
for Carol's taste. :o)