Mothers and Fathers (was: Re: James gave his life, why no protection from him?)

[Iggy McSnurd]

No: HPFGUIDX 106901

Hi all, I am re-posting this reply I had sent in (partly in case nobody
realized it was there, and partly because I began to think about it and look
at a few aspects of it, and have a few added observations.)

Iggy

> > Becki's thought;
> >
> > Perhaps it goes to the saying that there is no stronger love than a
> > mother has for her child.
>
> Iggy here:
>
> I dunno... I've always had a problem with that statement... especially
since
> becoming a father.  Love a father shows may come across differently than
> that a mother shows, but I don't feel that it's any less than a mothers by
> so much as a single mote.  Society teaches us that fathers are supposed to
> show love in the "paternal" form, and mothers show it in the "maernal"
form.
> The paternal form of love is often expressed in providing for, caring for,
> and protecting.  The maternal form is often depicted as nurturing,
feeding,
> and soothing.  While they may take separate paths, I do not see how a
> mother's love is greater than a father's.  (And yes, some may argue that
it
> is because a baby resides within its mother's body for nine months... but
> that is a matter of biology, and not emotion.  There are many instances in
> the animal kingdom where a baby is abandoned to fend on its own by the
> mother without a second thought... and other instances where the father is
> the one that cares for the eggs and the infants... penguins and seahorses
> come most readily to mind there.)
>

Iggy here (again):

This got me to thinking a little bit.  95%+ of the time I hear that "there
is nothing stronger than a mother's love," it's coming from a mother, or (at
least) a woman who wants to be a mother.  This is not meant to be a sexist
comment in any way... It's simply meant to help illustrate a point.  You
frequently hear about "the purity/strength/devotion/holiness/etc. of a
mother's love," but almost never hear anything about a father's love.
(Ok... unless it's in some movie where a father is going on a killing spree
of vengeance against the bad guys who killed his family.  And then it's more
of a "crazed/cold revenge" angle.)

A big part of this, I feel, is not that a father's love is any less than a
mother's love.  It's that society down through all the ages has ingrained
into all of us that a mother's love is more active and dynamic in the sense
that mothe's are supposed/allowed to show their love and affection and show
their emotions regarding it much more strongly.  On the other hand, a
father's love is supposed to be more passive and solid in nature.  Men are
taught not to express their love of their children outwardly very much, and
that they are expected to do so in being the strong, quiet provider who also
is to be a steady foundation for their children's lives.

> > Becki:
> > James was definatly defending his family but perhaps, in his heart,
> > he had additional thoughts, trying to defeat LV, as well as trying
> > to protect his family.  Perhaps the very thought in Lily's mind at
> > the exact time she died was ONLY to protect Harry, so at that very
> > minute, she transfered that protection.
> >
> > Becki (a Mom who would die for her children in a heartbeat).
> >
>
> Iggy here:
>
> I dunno... If I was in James's shoes in the same situation, the only
thought
> on my mind would be in protecting my family, my child in particular... but
> yes, beating Voldemort would be an aspect, but that's the how, not the
what.

Iggy here (again):

I should also point out that I would give up my life in a heartbeat to
protect my daughter as well.  This seems to mean less in most cultures
because men are EXPECTED to give their lives for family, country, and their
faith/religion.  Women aren't expected to, so it's seen as a much more noble
sacrifice.  That's not to downplay the importance of a mother's sacrifice,
but merely to point out that a man's is downplayed because society expects
it... even though it's still just as strong a sacrifice.

To use an odd analogy here:  I was working at a Pizza Hut when the 9-11
incident happened.  A bunch of us were watching the news coverage in the
back, and when we saw the towers fall, one of my co-workers (Heather)
started to cry.  I, on the other hand, sorta shrugged and sighed with
regret, but didn't show much more emotion over that.  (I was deliberately
trying not to think of all the lives lost, to give myself time to adjust to
the idea.)  Heather got pissed off at me that I didn't appear to think it
was as great a tragedy as it was.  I had to explain to her that society
trains men to not show emotion, or detatch themselves from it, since that's
how we're expected to show strength, and also that's how we're trained to be
able to be soldiers and men who are expected to kill or die for a cause...
whether we're in the military or not... and not to be affected by it.  (At
least, we're not allowed to show that we are...)  I told her that she can
either life in a society where men are expected to at least appear to be
fairly detatched and calm about crisis, tragedy, and danger, or she can live
in one where we're expected to be as emotional as women are allowed to be
and still be seen as strong men.  It can't work both ways.

A father's love isn't really all that much different.  We show it the way
we're expected and trained to show it.  If we show love the way a mother is
expected to, we are seen as being either effeminite, soft, or weak.  Just
like if a mother shows her love the way a father is expected to by society,
they will be seen as being emotionless, uncaring, and a bad mother.

> Iggy here:
>
> Although, if we get down to it, BOTH could have given Harry his
protection.
> Lilly sacrificed herself with the thought of protecting Harry with her
life
> and wanting him to live a long and safe life.  James sacrificed himself to
> protect his son with the knowledge that he'd have to defeat Voldemort to
do
> it.
>
> Lilly's sacrifice was powerful, and longer lasting... Not only aiding him
in
> resisting the AK, but in helping to protect him until he could help to
> protect himself.  (Which runs right through up until the end of GoF...
since
> from the end of GoF, and the beginning of OOtP, Harry has learned a LOT
> about how to protect and defend himself, even against LV.)  Lilly died
> wanting to protect Harry and wanting him to live a long life.
>
> James's sacrrifice was just as powerful, but much more immediate and
intense
> because it was a short lived one.  His sacrifice was the other half of
> helping Harry resist the AK, but the entire power that allowed the AK to
> rebound back on LV.  James died wanting to protect Harry, and defeat LV to
> do so.
>
> To me, not only is this viable, (and recognizing of a father's love for
his
> child as well...) but it would also explain why Harry has only been told
> about his mother's protection.... because it's the only one that has come
> into play since that first, fateful night.  His father's protection has
> faded LONG before he comes under danger from LV again.
>
>
> Just my two centaur's worth.
>
> Iggy McSnurd
>

Iggy here (again):

Ok, here's where we go back into some of the canon aspect of this secondary
reply...  Comparing some of the mothers and fathers in the HP books.

Petunia and Vernon - While both are horrible to Harry (despite Petunia's
dedication to the promose she made to protect him) they are very caring of
Dudly... although in a rather unhealthy manner as most child psychologists
would tell you.  Petunia fawns over him, calls him her "little Duddykins,"
and treats him like her pride and joy.  She gets distraught and emotional
whenever something bad happens to Dudly.  Vernon, on the other hand, is
gruff, takes pride in his ability to make money for his family, and is proud
of his manly son.  They both love Dudley, but show it in ways that are, in
effect, exxagerations of what society expects parents to act like.  They
also place at least as much, if not more, stock in appearances and money
than in family itself.

Molly and Arthur - Both have taken Herry in as like a son to them (and
Hermione like a daughter) and care very much for their families.  Arthur is
the breadwinner, and Molly is the housewife. They are the flipside of
Petunia and Vernon in the sense that they are a much healthier family and
have a different set of priorities... money and appearances being less
important than family.  Granted, Molly can be a little smothering at times,
she does it our of an honest love and desire to show those she loves that
she DOES love them, rather than to spoil her children or appear to be a good
mother.  Molly feeds, clothes, and cleans for her family... she also wants
to shelter and protect them by not exposing her children (even her "adopted"
ones) to danger.  Arthur, on the other hands, wishes to protect and shield
his children, but he also understands what they are capable of, and that
sometimes knowledge can be a much stronger shield than ignorance.  He is not
as emotional as Molly, but it is VERY clear that he loves his children just
as much as Molly does.

Mr. and Mrs. Diggory - While we don't see much of Mrs. Diggory, Amos is
obviously proud of his son, and shows a certain amount of affection.  When
they hear of Cedric's death and see the body, Mrs. Diggory collapses in
tears and becomes overcome.  Mr. Diggory, on the other hand, shows obviously
severe greif, but also a resolve that he knows he must be strong because his
wife needs him to be.  This is something that's VERY common in most
cultures.

McGonagall and Dumbledore - I know people will ask "why are you putting this
pair here as parentls."  I'm sure, of you think about it, you'll understand.
Both of them are like grandparents/foster parents of a sort to Harry (and,
to a lesser extent, Ron and Hermione) while he is at school.  They both look
out for him, and it's rather obvious that they feel an almost parental
affection for him.  When things get rougher for Harry, Albus begins to
withdraw a bit and stop showing that paretnal side to him, preferring to try
and help him from the background until confronted with no option but to
express how he feels.  McGonagall, on the other hand, tends to be more
maternal (if strict and less showing of emotion) but when he faces
challenges, she does what she can (within the rules) to help Harry.  The
bigger the wall he confronts to his goals later on (such as Umbridge telling
him he would never be an Auror) the more dedicated and vocal she becomes in
her support.  When she can, she also attempts to give him maternal advice
and help him grow in himself more than most teachers would.

Now, there are other people I could add in that show themselves in either
direct parental roles, or roles that can be seen as parental (Granny
Longbottom, Sirius Black, and even Hagrid, Lupin, and even Dobby in his own,
odd way...) as well as some others.  I omitted the Malfoys, for example,
because we see next to nothing of Narcissa, and Lucius is presented less as
a father, and more as the "Right Hand of Voldemort" and a conniving snake in
his own right.  I also left out (but am willing to address if need be) Bary
Crouch Sr. and his wife.  Their situation was a bit odd and unique even for
the wizarding world, since Crouch Sr. had kinda gone off the deep end when
Jr. was only a child.


Well, I think I've gone on long enough with this letter.  That's enough for
now... (Unless someone wants me to go on further.  *grin*)

Iggy McSnurd