Something wrong with this Fudge

[huntergreen_3]

No: HPFGUIDX 107392

Matt wrote:
>> Well, if you are just trying to say Fudge is walking the gray 
line, it may be that we agree more than we disagree. Certainly, I 
agree that he is calculating, corrupt and unprincipled. He makes no 
effort to combat the WW's prejudices, whether or not he agrees with 
them.

But I thought you were going farther than that -- in your first post
you implied that Fudge was consciously trying to put Harry at risk of
being killed in PA; you have called him "evil" and said you think he
sympathizes with Voldemort's aims. Do you mean that he *wants*
Voldemort to return to power? I think he surely does not -- Fudge
knows that a powerful Voldemort = a new Minister of Magic. <<

HunterGreen:
I don't know if I really said "evil", but yes he does sympathize with 
with Voldemort's aims. That does imply that he wouldn't mind if 
Voldemort returned to power and destroyed either the non-purebloods 
themselves or the system that allows them to be equal to purebloods. 
I don't know if Voldemort would take over the position of MoM, he'd 
probably want a higher position than that. Fudge may be trying to 
work for him, hoping that he'll come to power and then reward Fudge 
by allowing him to stay in a position of power (meaning that 
Voldemort might see some use in the MoM postion still existing, just 
under whatever position he sees himself attaining). 

>> Do you really think he has ever wished Harry dead, as opposed to
discredited? Again, I think not. <<

Why would he want to 'discredit' Harry in PoA? I don't know if it was 
actually Fudge who wanted Harry dead in PoA, he's just the most 
likely suspect. My point was that *someone* wanted Harry dead in PoA, 
and was trying to use the dementers to do it for them, and may have 
let (as in, assisted with the escape of from behind the scenes) 
Sirius Black out of prison to both have a reason to send the 
dementors to Hogwarts, and in hopes that *Sirius* would kill Harry. 
Fudge would be the most likely person to have done this. (of the 
reasons I can think of, the first one is that he's one of the few 
people we've seen who appear comfortable with dementors).

>> Even by OP, when Fudge was becoming desperate, his only goal 
according to Umbridge was to "silence" Harry by discrediting him (OP 
ch. 32). It was Umbridge who was willing to resort to illegal methods 
("What Cornelius doesn't know won't hurt him") such as orchestrating 
the dementor attack (id.). <<

Well, he's certainly not stupid enough to do something that public. 
Umbridge is banking on the corruption of her own government to not 
investigate the matter completely, and they didn't. I don't know if 
she told the dementors to use the Kiss or if they did it on their 
own, she may have just intended to get Harry to do magic. Fudge, if 
he was planning on killing Harry, would do something more discreet 
(or less obvious pointing toward some sort of corruption). Two 
dementors murdering Harry in the middle of a muggle street points to 
*someone* being involved, but a dangerous criminal killing Harry is 
the criminal's fault, and a dementor going too far and killing Harry 
when it was supposed to be guarding him, is the dementor's fault.(in 
the case of the dementors walking down the street in OotP it can't 
just be the dementor's fault, because there's still the question of 
why the heck they were there in the first place).
I'm guessing that Umbridge didn't tell them to use the Kiss, only 
because it would make things worse for her. If Harry uses magic to 
drive them off, and they disappear without harming him, there's no 
proof that he was in danger (which was their case), if the dementor 
kills him, Harry is 'dead', but it causes A LOT of negative press to 
the government.

>>I agree that Fudge is some shade of gray, but, again, I don't think 
he is Evil. I don't think he is prepared to ally himself with 
Voldemort. And the fact that I'm arguing based on theme and principle 
rather than some anecdotal "clue" doesn't make my argument 
rhetorical.<<

Ancedotal? What is 'ancedotal' about the dementer swooping in on 
Barty Jr. without cause and performing the kiss the moment it walked 
into the door? I'd say that's pretty damn suspicious. Dementers 
concentrating on *Harry* on three different occasions for no clear 
reason in PoA is ancedotal? Fudge choosing *not* to tell Harry that a 
dangerous murderer is planning on killing him is ancedotal?
IMO, arguing on your perception of theme and principal without 
specific examples from the text is rhetorical. If you don't agree, 
that's fine, but please give something besides outside examples of 
what the author is trying to say as your argument.