When Harry met Sally (was: Re: Incomplete Prophecy)

[cubfanbudwoman]

No: HPFGUIDX 107432

Kneasy wrote:
> > > It'll probably boil down to one of DD's choices eventually.
 
SSSusan:
> > Whoa.  Unless there's sarcasm in that thar final sentence, 
> > methinks I detect a change of attitude w/in Kneasy?  Could it be 
> > that you believe Harry *will* have choice in the end?  I thought 
> > I remember your belief that Harry really *hasn't* had choice--
> > that DD [and perhaps circumstance?] has been controlling so much 
> > that Harry hasn't been allowed a true choice of his own.  [I 
> > don't agree, but I thought that's what I remembered of your view.]
> > 
> > So is that precisely your point--that it'll come down 
> > to one more DD string-pull and not a true choice for Harry?  Or 
> > will this one finally be Harry's for real?

Kneasy:
> Bit of everything, really.
> Sarcasm, yes; because I don't believe DD  is constitutionally 
> capable of allowing some-one to make up their own mind without 
> interferring. He way he talks about choice reminds me  of the way 
> he talks about truth - it's so precious that it must be used 
> sparingly and with discretion, i.e. do it my way. And since all too 
> often in Harry's life and times it's been DD that doles out the 
> information that Harry uses to reach his conclusions the concept of 
> real choice is moot.
> 
> DD knows what he wants to happen and has probably planned the best 
> way to achieve his goals. Do you really think he'd give up on that 
> because some stroppy teenager had different ideas? It's a 
> continuation of his policy towards Harry from book 1 chap.1. Limit 
> Harry's options. Harry has had no say in any worthwhile decision 
> about his life - probably a good thing, Harry would only have 
> cocked it up,  just like the Occlumency fiasco. Harry is DD's 
> instrument; come hell or high water DD will ensure that Harry does
> what's necessary. Note that DD has strong and influential 
> supporters in Ron and Hermione. They think he's wonderful. Another 
> source of indirect DD pressure on Harry.

SSSusan:
Well, whew!  I'm pleased to see you're still firmly entrenched in the 
Harry's-never-had-a-real-choice camp.  I have always argued that 
Harry has had some real choice--that he has, in fact, exercised that 
choice--but the "problem" is that he has exercised it in such a way 
that he's ended up aligned with DD's grand plans/hopes.  Because of 
that, it can't be fully clear that he truly has CHOSEN and wasn't 
just coerced, led, or "influenced."  (Your bringing Ron & Hermione 
into it adds another dimension to that influence, as well--good 
point.)  And you're right that DD has limited the info Harry's 
received.  I have always wondered, though, believing as I do that he 
HAS truly chosen for himself, what WOULD have happened if Harry had 
exercised his choice by going AGAINST what DD planned/hoped?  What if 
Harry had behaved as many stroppy teenagers...as many of us, I'd 
wager to guess...would have behaved?  That is, by saying, "NO WAY, 
OLD MAN! *I'm* not going to risk MY neck! Let somebody ELSE do this!! 
Let the wizarding world fend for itself! *I* didn't ask for this, and 
I CHOOSE NOT TO ACCEPT the burden!"

I mean, this would be a choice which DD could not control.  He wields 
influence, certainly, and you've pointed out that Ron & (especially) 
Hermione tend to promote what DD promotes, but in the end, it's up to 
Harry to buy into it or not.  DD's been lucky, imo, that Harry's 
nature has proven (so far!) to be essentially courageous, true to 
serving the greater good, and willing to sacrifice.


Kneasy:
> But there is somebody else whose choice may be critical - Tom 
> Riddle. He's somewhere inside Voldy; a Voldy that DD is most 
> reluctant to kill. I believe that part of DD's plan is to split TR 
> off from the Voldy!Monster if he can, to the confusion and 
> confoundment of the enemy. But this requires that Tom co-operate. A 
> choice is on offer - remain in thrall to an immortal evil for ever 
> or repudiate it and maybe achieve redemption. And perhaps also the 
> only way of getting that Voldy transfer out of Harry.

SSSusan:
This is a fascinating idea.  And it would require that Tom cooperate, 
yes.  Just as everything in DD's plans/hopes also requires that Harry 
cooperate.  I see that as choice in both cases.  

Siriusly Snapey Susan