Neville and the Prophecy - VERY LONG

[huntergreen_3]

No: HPFGUIDX 108222

DuffyPoo wrote:
>> What I am saying is, none of the rest of the prophecy has yet been 
fulfilled, even though DD, the WW, LV himself, and the Keeper of the 
Prophecies believes it has been. <<

HunterGreen:
I was only asking if the curse put on the orb was SPECIFICALLY about 
*Harry* or about "the ones the prophecy refers to", I think its the 
latter (especially since the Orb has been there presumably since 
before Harry was even born), but clearly you think its the former, 
which is fine, there's no clear evidence pointing either way.

HOWEVER, the rest of the prophecy is already on its way to being 
fulfilled, so much so, that there is no chance that its Neville now.

>> What happened after LV went to the Potters is only circumstantial 
evidence because he never got to the Longbottoms. If it had happened 
the other way round, and LV went to the Longbottoms first and killed 
baby Neville, we wouldn't be having this discussion. The problem 
exists, for me, because both kids who could have fulfilled the 
prophecy are still living. <<

HunterGreen:
Which is true. And like I said in the last messege, whether or not 
its circumstanstial, whether or not it was really Lily who caused 
Voldemort to 'mark (harry) as equal', he still did and none of that 
has happened with Neville.   


>> There was nothing special about HP, there was something very 
special about Lily's sacrifice (whether or not it was simply her 
sacrificing herself for Harry or she had cast a counter spell. It is 
still Lily that protected HP, not anything about HP himself that 
saved him). <<

Perhaps there was nothing special about Harry back when he was a year 
old, but that doesn't mean there isn't now. We know he got a certain 
amount of Voldemort's powers (or, at least the Parseltongue ability), 
we know that he was able to through off the Imperious curse on almost 
the first try (which to me is *amazing*, considering how long it took 
Crouch Jr. and Sr. to be able to throw it off), he was able to learn 
the patronus charm -- and USE it against a Dementor -- when he was 
thirteen (which we are told is Newt level magic), and he beat 
Voldemort in the Priori Incantatem thing. And of course there's the 
issue of his mind link with Voldemort. I think those are not examples 
of a non-special wizard.


>> The *mark* - the scar - is circumstantial...it was caused by the 
rebounding of the AK off Lily's protective sacrifice. The AK was just 
as strong bouncing back. <<

Yes, but until Voldemort 'marks' Neville in any way, that is enough 
to be considered fulfillment of the prophecy.

>> [snip]HP is still protected by the charm DD placed on him/Petunia 
so that as long as HP can call the Dursley residence 'home' he will 
be protected by that Lily-Petunia-HP blood thing...the place where 
HP's mother's blood resides. (Since, in my theory here, HP is not the 
one anyway, this really changes nothing except now, if HP leaves 
Hogwarts or the Dursley residence, LV can kill him because Lily's 
protection, which saved him before, is now gone. LV can kill anyone 
else he wants to, as well.) <<

But if Voldemort is resistent to the blood protection, then there has 
to be a reason that Dumbledore still sent Harry back there to renew 
it in the summers after GoF and OotP. After OotP he would have been 
just as protected in Grimmauld Place, but its important to have the 
protection renewed....why? If it doesn't work against Voldemort any 
more, and Dumbledore still thinks its important to renew, then it 
must work against other people. Therefore, *Voldemort* is protected 
from other people as well (I don't think the charm would have to be 
renewed for him, because the blood he has is sort of 'frozen in time' 
from a time when the charm was active). I don't know why exactly why 
Voldemort having Harry's blood allows him to harm Harry (perhaps the 
protection doesn't work against suicide), but it does. Which means 
that he's not protected from Harry either.
Ask yourself, why *isn't* Dumbledore trying to kill Voldemort during 
their duel in OotP? Surely he's not *that* noble? (we all know he 
does indeed want to kill Voldemort -- or at least get rid of him 
forever -- why build a teenager up to do it for him, if he could have 
done it right then?). If Dumbledore understood the nature of 
Voldemort having Harry's blood, then he wouldn't want to shoot a 
killing curse at Voldemort, it would only rebound and kill him. 


>> Because of what happened between LV and the Potters, DD and the WW 
*mistakenly* believe there is something special about HP. DD believes 
*mistakenly* that HP is the one the prophecy refers to. The Keeper of 
the Prophecy changes the card from "Dark Lord & (?)" to "Dark Lord & 
Harry Potter" because of the circumstantial evidence and the fact 
that old LV appears to have vanished. The reason HP can take the 
prophecy orb down is that the prophecy *now refers to him*. <<

That's only if you think the curse is put on specifically for the 
person on the label, which, as I said above, I don't agree with. I 
see what you mean about what happened in Godric's Hollow being 
misidentified as killing or vanquishing Voldemort, but that's not the 
only thing that puts Harry above Neville. They only both fit the 
prophecy in the first two lines, meaning both their parents defied 
him three times, and they were both born at the end of July. However, 
Voldemort 'marked' Harry (it wasn't intentional, but he--as in his 
wand -- still threw a curse at Harry which was the reason he has the 
scar on his head, Harry is "marked"). And I cannot see any reason why 
Neville would be the only one able to kill Voldemort (like I said, I 
CAN see a reason with Harry). Remember the prophecy doesn't CREATE 
cirmcumstances, it foretells them. (in this case, the foretelling 
created some of the cirmcumstances that lead the prophecy being 
fulfilled, but doesn't mean Neville or Harry automatically had some 
power to kill Voldemort just because the prophecy said so). 



>> The simple fact is Neville has never been tested against LV. He 
may have powers none of us, including Neville, know anything about. 
He *appears* an unlikely candidate for the job, but we know very 
little about him. His parents were, obviously, both very talented 
magically. They 'thrice defied' LV, like the Potters had. Neville has 
been, for five years, using a wand that didn't belong to him. Neville 
has, for most of his life been rather, 'kept down' by his 
Grandmother, I think. <<

Oh, I don't think for a second that Neville can't be a very powerful 
person if he had enough confidence (and I agree very much that a new 
wand might make a difference). But that doesn't mean he's 'the one'. 
The fact is there ISN'T any evidence or anything to point at that 
except that he COULD have been it for about a year after he was born. 
Voldemort, because he knew where the Potters were and not where the 
Longbottoms were, tried to kill Harry first, and even though it was 
something Lily did and not something Harry did, Voldemort ended up 
marking Harry with a scar and disappearing for 13 years. Nothing of 
the sort has happened to Neville.

It doesn't really have much to do with being a strong wizard or not 
anyway. In that case *Dumbledore* would be the one with the power to 
vanquish Voldemort. The prophecy doesn't say 'the one who will 
vanquish the dark lord', but 'the one with the power to vanquish the 
dark lord'. Meaning that its not foretelling that some situation will 
happen where Dumbledore is not around and it ends up being 
Harry/Neville who kill Voldemort. Its saying that if Harry/Neville 
and Dumbledore were all in the same room with Voldemort, then 
Harry/Neville would have the 'power' to kill Voldemort and Dumbledore 
wouldn't. I'm saying that power is the fact that Voldemort's blood 
protection would not protect him from Harry.